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    Religion & Spirituality

    Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

    Welcome to our podcast!

    My name is Richard H. Ostler and I am a native of Salt Lake City, small business owner, married father of six with several grandchildren. I believe in and am deeply committed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and want it to work for a wider group.
    I am the author of three books:

    “Listen Learn and Love: Embracing LGBTQ Latter-day Saints” published in 2020 available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462135773)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Improving Latter-day Saint Culture” published in 2022. The book explores who we can do better to help all Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, needed and a feeling of belonging in our congregations. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462139566)

    “Listen Learn and Love: Building the Good Ship Zion” released in Sept 2023. The book explores additional topics to help all Latter-day Saint feel welcome and needed on the Good Ship Zion. Available at Amazon (amazon.com/dp/1462145280)

    The purpose of all three books is to help us better create Zion by helping more feel welcome, a sense of belonging, and needed in our congregations.

    Proceed from the books go the Stockton Power Memorial Scholarship (www.standingforstockton.com) in honor of Stockton Powers a gay Latter-day Saint teenager who died of suicide in 2016. Everything I do is a self-funded labor of love ❤️

    I am the author of two Ensign articles:

    ‘How the Savior’s Healing Power Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin’ (August 2020/YSA Digital Only) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

    ‘7 Tips for Overcoming Pornography Use’ (October, page 72) www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use.

    This podcast is designed to discuss some more complicated issues in our church to help all of us better “listen, learn and love” so we can minister in a more effective way to all of our Heavenly Parents’ children.

    Podcasts are indexed by category at listenlearnandlove.org/podcasts

    Thank you for joining us. You can’t donate to this podcast. There are no sponsors. But you can leave a review/rate the podcast on the platform you are listening and/or leave a review at Deseret Book/Amazon on my books.

    With love, Richard ‘Papa’ Ostler ❤

    Twitter: twitter.com/Papa_Ostler
    IG: www.instagram.com/papa_ostler
    Facebook: facebook.com/richard.ostler.5
    Substack: https://substack.com/@papaostler
    E-mail: richard@ostlergroup.com

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    Copyright: © All rights reserved

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    Latest Episodes:
    Episode 827: Sara Sumsion, Painful Church Experiences, Why She Stays, Mother’s Day Lesson Insights May 02, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend Sara Sumsion (RM, Age 30, YSA ward leader, getting a master’s degree in marriage and family therapy) joins us to share her unique story. Sara starts with her good father’s decision to leave the Church and her initial judgements about his decision. She then shares her difficult mission experience including spiritual abuse that nearly broke her and led to her considering leaving the Church. Sara talks about finding the grey and her intentional decision to stay in the Church, her reconstructed testimony, and her desire to help others find hope and healing. Sara talks about her road to become a vocal LGBTQ Ally including her Instagram post of her non-binary friend. Sara talks about helping everyone feel welcome in their YSA ward and also practicing boundaries/good communication when interacting with less active members. Sara concludes with her Mother’s Day lesson including a focus on Heavenly Mother and helping all women feel good and welcome (regardless of their current status or feelings regarding motherhood). If you are working to stay in the Church, Sara’s journey may help you. And if you are looking for more insights about how to teach/organize a positive meeting on Mother’s Day, Sara suggestions may help you. And if you are looking to create a safer place in your Ward, Sara’s story may help you. Thank you, Sara, for your work to create Zion. I learned so much from you. You give me hope for the future of our Church and world. I see the example of Jesus reflected in your ministry. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sara.sumsion IG: @sar_assumption/

    Episode 826: Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, New Book: “At Last She Said It” Apr 28, 2025
    Show notes

    My dear friends, Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, (co-founders of the “At Last She Said It Project” which includes their groundbreaking podcast—with over 200 episodes and 2+ million downloads) join us to talk about their new book. Their book (published by Signature Books) invites readers to consider new perspectives, be open to changing our minds, and how growth can be uncomfortable—and how this leads to helping more fellow Latter-day Saints feel valued, welcome and how to have more belonging. The book helps us better understand patriarchy within the church and how this can cause pain for both women and men—and what we can do in our area of influence to improve. The book also addresses many other topics within the church to help us build Zion including: Discipling Obedience Fear Repentance Worthiness Cynthia's Personal Essay: “Works for Me” Susan's Personal Essay: “Metamorphosis” Speaking Up Why I Wear a Cross I’ve learned so much from these two good women about better ministering to others. I wish their podcast and book existed decades ago—it would have helped me be a better husband, father, church member—and better lift (versus sometimes add) to the burdens of others. I encourage everyone to read/share their book. Thank you, Susan and Cynthia. You two are awesome. Links: Book and podcast: atlastshesaidit.org/

    Episode 825: Elder Jax Smith, Current Missionary, Gay Latter-day Saint Apr 25, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend Elder Jax Smith (multi-racial, from Highland Utah, Age 25) joins us to bravely share his story: Middle school: “My personal hell” Coming out to older siblings Suicidal ideation, hospitalization, “choosing to stay” Decision to serve a mission/called to Alabama Birmingham Reason for ending his mission and leaving the Church Role of good people (like Elder Jenkins) to help him return to Church Difficult YSA experience attending with his boyfriend—left the Church for a second time Focusing on Jesus and attending Baptist Church Bishop’s (also his uncle) invitation to attend his YSA Ward Calling that led him to full activity, becoming a temple worker, and going back on a mission Others (like Elder Wright and Brother Monson) that helped him accept himself and feel like he belonged Navigating church generated pain/trauma/difficult experiences Powerful testimony of Jesus Christ and His power to heal This is another super powerful/brave podcast from a remarkable Latter-day Saint. Thank you Elder Jax Smith for being on the podcast. You are a remarkable disciple of Christ, and your story helps others walking difficult roads—and it helps the rest of us have more insights to help everyone feel like the belong and better create Zion. You are a good man! Links: Jax Smith Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556810127958 Jax Smith Instagram: @smith_3_55_

    Episode 824: Leon Crandell, Married Father of 8, Gay Latter-day Saint Apr 20, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend Leon Crandell (lives in Snowflake AZ, cosmetologist, Brazil RM) joins us to bravely share his story: Survivor of sexual abuse Turning to substance abuse to deal with/escape the shame of sexual abuse Later abused by a doctor on his mission—and the shame of wondering why me Concluding being a victim of sexual abuse isn’t why he is gay Getting married (married for 27 years) and not really addressing his sexual orientation Gradually opening up to his wife—and their road to stay in their marriage and the Church Finding community of others walking this road Asking Heavenly Father “What do you think of me”? Super helpful Powerful (and healing) experience in a conversation with Jesus Kurt Francom’s impactful book “Is God Disappointed in Me” Hope instead of shame/fear This is a super powerful, vulnerable, and insightful podcast to help listeners see the role of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to help us find more hope/peace in our lives—and how our unique differences help us reach others—helping to create Zion. You are super brave Leon. Your courage to be honest gives hope to others. You are a good man! Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Leon’s podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coming-untwo-christ/id1752406845 Leon’s webpage: cominguntwochrist.com/ Leon on Facebook: www.facebook.com/leon.crandell Leon on Instagram: @cominguntwochrist Kurt Francom’s book: www.amazon.com/dp/B0CT67RS86 Dr Robinson: www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9jO9iMbm5U

    Episode 823: Darice Auston, LDS Mother of a Trans Child, Gather Conference June 2025 Apr 16, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend Darice (married mother of four including a transgender daughter, Gather Conference Director) joins us to share her story including: 1) Proximity to LGBTQ people—seeing their goodness/gifts/kindness 2) Being uncomfortable with the 2015 policy statements—"didn’t align with my spiritual integrity” 3) Being called as Stake Relief Society President and her work to help everyone feel loved and that they belong—including having a Stake inclusion specialist 4) Supporting her transgender daughter and her upcoming marriage to her non-binary partner 5) Living in “complexity” and how that gives her more perspective/tools to help others 6) Getting involved with Gather 7) Upcoming Gather Conference on June 27-28, 2025 Thank you, Darice, for your work to bless so many lives. I encourage everyone to listen to Darice’s story and attend Gather. Thank you for all your work (and many others with Gather) to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and welcome. Links: Gather Conference: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Gather Conference Registration: thegatherconference.regfox.com/gather-conference-worldwide-2025 Lift and Love Support Groups: www.liftandlove.org/meeting Darice on Instagram: @dariceauston

    Episode 822: Helen Anderson, Mother of Trans Daughter, New Variety Show on May 10th Apr 12, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend Helen Anderson (Lives in Utah County, BYU Grad, Mother of 4, LGBTQ Ally) joins us to share her story: · Exposure to gay people in the 70’s and 80’s—becoming supportive · Carol Lynn Pearson’s book · Documentary called “TransMormon” and how it helped prepare her · Journey to love, see, understand, and accept her transgender daughter · Pronouns · OK to cry · High school graduation (great experience) · University of Utah welcome/housing (great experience) · Have a transgender/non-binary child is not a sad tragedy—but can become a beautiful family love story Helen also talks about her new variety show called “Dear Mom: Celebrating Mothers of LGBTQIA+ Children” on May 10th (see show notes for more information). Thank you, Helen, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your beautiful family love story. I’m grateful for your voice and experiences to help us better support the transgender people in our lives—for they are wonderful. Links: Variety Show on May 10th, 2025: https://www.werehereutah.com/dearmom Helen on Instagram: @helenandersoncomedy

    Episode 821: Lucas Batista, Gay Latter-day Saint, International BYU Student Apr 09, 2025
    Show notes

    *** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Lucas Batista (grew up in Brazil, lived in Spain, RM/Chile) joins us to share his story including: 1) Growing up knowing he was like his gay mom (and all the negative comments about gay people) 2) Shame and “always wearing a mask” 3) Temple helping him feel less shame—never felt rejected by God 4) Great mission experience in Chile—came out to both Mission Presidents 5) Suicidal ideation after his mission—role of friends to give hope—including one who said “It’s OK—I will be with you to the end” 6) Letter to “future me” 7) Not broken, coming on the podcast to reduce shame and give others hope Thank you, Lucas, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your unique story. You are super brave. You story will help others to feel less shame, more acceptance, and hope for the future. You are a good man who has bless many lives. Our church and world are a better place with Lucas Batista part of it! Links: Lucas on Instagram: @luccabattistta Lucas on Facebook: facebook.com/lucas.silvabatista.14 Facebook Group to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 820: Lyric Kinard, Creating LGBTQ Support Groups, Allyship, Gather Southeast Apr 02, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend Lyric Kinard (lives in Raleigh, married mother of 5 including queer kids, active Latter-day Saint) joins us to share her story around creating support groups and an invitation to attend Gather Southeast (in Raleigh, NC) on Sept 20, 2025). Lyric talks about: Principles for starting a support group Engaging local leaders Importance of speaking up and having a second witness Creating safe spaces at church Gather Southeast Why she wears her transgender scarf to Church Being like Jesus Thank you, Lyric, for being on the podcast and all your work (along with many others in your area) to help LGBTQ Latter-day Saints feel more welcome, loved and needed. It is people like you that give me hope. You are making a huge difference for good. Links: Gather Southeast: www.gathersoutheast.com/ Gather Southeast Newsletter: www.gathersoutheast.com/f/gather-se-newsletter Gather Southeast Instagram: www.instagram.com/gather_southeast/ Gather Southeast Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61563441041765 Lyric’s e-mail: lyric@lyrickinard.com Resource Files at “Supporting LGBTQ Latter-day Saints”: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

    Episode 819: McKay Mayes, Gay Latter-day Saint, Giving Hope to Others Mar 29, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend McKay Mayes (from Wyoming, London South RM, Age 29, Lives/Works in Utah County) joins us to share his story including: Always believing/hoping he would be fixed and be straight Great mission experience—but still gay Not fitting the typical gay stereotype Dating and trying to make it work with a woman—wanted to follow God’s plan—super painful not finding a way to make that possible Feeling “left behind” as straight friends got married For six years, committed to being single in line with the Church’s celibate guidance—leading to the darkest/most painful moments of McKay’s life New prayers (instead of “fix me”) Finding hope, acceptance of being gay, and purpose in his new path Relationship with the Church and hopes for changes First coming out experience (super helpful) I continue to be amazed by the brave/mature/thoughtful people who share their stories on the podcast—with McKay joining that group—and his desire to give hope to others walking a similar road. Thank you, McKay, for all you have done to bless/help the lives of others (mission, EFY counselor, etc) and continue to do so with your courage to be out/honest and be on the podcast to give hope to others. You are a good man with a great life ahead of you! Links: McKay on Instagram: @mckay_mayes McKay on Facebook: www.facebook.com/mckay.mayes.7 Obsolete vs current teachings: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mxcr5fo9rxl29by4wvc9q/Obsolete-and-Current-Teachings-LGBTQ.docx?rlkey=e1dbc3iffua4nwwscpg911uzw&dl=0

    Episode 818: Barbara Higinbotham, LDS Mother of Three LGBTQ Children Mar 23, 2025
    Show notes

    My friend Barbara Higinbotham (married mother of 5 living children including a non-binary child, transgender daughter, and gay son; early 60s; recently returned in early 2025 from serving a senior mission with her husband Dan). Barbara shares: Assumptions should be challenged, being uncomfortable leads to growth Being LGBTQ doesn’t make someone a predator Why she chooses to honor the new names (Ben and Heather) and her non-binary child and transgender daughter including updated Christmas stockings Focus on the temple (current temple workers) and our Savior to find revelation, hope, and peace—and anchoring in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Trusting/believing her children We are not better church members by distancing ourselves from the LGBTQ people in our lives Processing unkind comments in Church and on social media Managing grief with changing expectations Thank you, Barbara, for being on the podcast. I wish I could have listened to you 10-20 years ago—your insights would have helped to be a better disciple of Christ. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode, as we work to “hasting the work” by “gathering Isreal”—which includes our LGBTQ friend, family and church members. Links: Barbara on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/barbara.morrellhiginbotham

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