Law, disrupted

Latest Episodes:

A Roundtable with Leading In-House Counsel in China Feb 13, 2025

Show notes

In the second of a series of podcasts recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by three in-house lawyers from major Chinese and multinational corporations: Victor Shen, Chief Legal Officer of Henkel China; Liu Zhen, Vice President Legal Department of Xiaomi; and Li Hua, senior legal counsel of a Fortune 500 energy company. They discuss intellectual property, regulatory and compliance issues in China as well as the evolving legal market. Non-practicing entities (NPEs) or “patent trolls”, which do not share the interests that patent owners and implementors have in maintaining a sustainable IP ecosystem, are a problem in China just as they are in the West. Building a strong legal strategy for IP involves maintaining inter-disciplinary teams that combine legal talent with key scientists within the company. IP disputes increasingly involve proceedings in both the U.S. and Europe. Antitrust issues do not arise in IP cases nearly as much in China as they do in the U.S. Regulatory compliance issues, especially regarding U.S. export controls, sanctions, and data security laws, are very hot topics in China. Foreign investment restrictions and lengthy review processes in multiple jurisdictions have forced companies to abandon deals. In-house lawyers need to be mentally agile and proactive. Effective legal teams must also develop strong internal compliance frameworks and maintain close relationships with regulators. Western law firms have withdrawn from China because of reduced foreign investment, the increasing capabilities of Chinese firms, and the need to retain local Chinese lawyers to represent clients in court or before regulatory agencies.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

A Conversation with Prof. Gao Xiqing Feb 06, 2025

Show notes

In the first of a series of podcasts recorded before a live audience in China, John is joined by Professor Gao Xiqing, the former Vice Chairman, President and Chief Investment Officer of the China Investment Corporation, the largest Chinese Sovereign Wealth. They discuss Prof. Gao’s extraordinary career from his early days building a railroad in rural China during the Cultural Revolution to earning his JD at Duke and becoming one of the first Chinese lawyers to pass the New York bar and work at a major Wall Street firm. Prof. Gao’s work on Wall Street led to him explaining, as a third year associate, the causes of the Black Friday stock market crash to Chinese business and government leaders. Later he was called back to China to design its first stock exchange and the Chinese regulator equivalent to the SEC. They also discuss Prof. Gao’s role in running the China Investment Corporation (CIC), one of the world's largest sovereign wealth funds. CIC invests only in private businesses outside of China, purchases less than a 10% stake in those companies, and splits its investments roughly evenly between publicly traded companies and private equity. Finally, they discuss Prof. Gao’s perspective on Sino-American relations. He believes that, viewed in perspective, the two countries have grown much closer since the days of the Cold War and that common cultural values, such as the drive to work hard and achieve, will lead to closer relations in the future.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Renowned Criminal Defense Lawyer Ben Brafman on Trial Practice Jan 30, 2025

Show notes

John is joined by renowned criminal defense lawyer attorney Ben Brafman, Founder of Brafman & Associates. They discuss Ben’s 45-year career, trial strategies, and reflections on the criminal justice system. Ben, who has tried more than 75 cases, gained prominence in the 1980s and 90s when he defended major criminal trials, particularly organized crime and white-collar cases. He was in trial almost continuously for 11 years. He attributes his success to meticulous preparation and emphasizes that there are no shortcuts in trial practice. Ben describes the evolution of criminal trials over the last 40 years, noting that trials are shorter and less frequent today due to an increase in plea deals. John and Ben also discuss trial strategies. Many cases are won on cross. A successful cross requires deep knowledge of every piece of evidence in the case. He describes one case in which he essentially memorized months of taped conversations to dismantle a key witness’s credibility. Ben often uses cross-examinations of prosecution witnesses to establish parts of the defense and contradict the testimony of other witnesses. Most cases today are won or lost on emails or texts because they are so prevalent and an incriminating email or text by a defendant cannot be discredited on cross-examination. Ben also reflects on some of his most notable cases, including the acquittal of Sean "Diddy" Combs on gun and bribery charges in 2001 and the acquittal of nightclub mogul Peter Gation after an eight-week racketeering trial. Criminal defense often takes an emotional toll on the criminal defense lawyer, who is witness to the devastating impact criminal prosecutions have on families and personal reputations. Finally, John and Ben discuss criminal justice reform. Ben criticizes mandatory sentencing minimums laws and advocates for judicial discretion to prevent unjustly harsh sentences.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

$604 Million Trade Secret Verdict Jan 23, 2025

Show notes

John is joined by Michael Ng, partner at Kobre & Kim. They discuss the $604 million verdict Michael recently won in a trade secrets case in Alameda County Superior Court in California. The punitive damages phase of the trial is expected to take place in the Spring. The case centered on allegations that Phillips 66 misappropriated Propel Fuels’ trade secrets while conducting due diligence for a potential acquisition that ultimately did not proceed. Michael explains that Propel Fuels, a pioneer in renewable fuels, accused Phillips 66 of using proprietary data, including financial models, market research, and operational strategies, to replicate Propel’s business. Despite Phillips 66's claims that it had no need for Propel’s information, Michael and his team demonstrated that the trade secrets were not only accessed but directly used to launch Phillips 66’s renewable fuels business. The evidence Michael’s team presented included internal Phillips 66 documents and testimony that showed the rapid deployment of Phillips 66’s business mirroring Propel’s proprietary model. Michael reviews the strategic decisions he made that led to the verdict, including choosing to proceed in state court rather than federal court, providing a detailed pretrial trade secrets disclosure, selecting jurors with technical expertise, and proactively calling a key defense witness during Propel’s case-in-chief. He also describes how the trial team effectively explained the complex market and regulatory dynamics of renewable fuels through their clients’ testimony and expert witnesses. John and Michael also discuss Propel’s damages case, which was based on an unjust enrichment theory that emphasized the head start Phillips 66 gained by leveraging Propel’s trade secrets. Michael describes internal Phillips 66 communications stating that Propel’s information gave Phillips 66 a ten year head start on entering the renewable fuels market. Finally, John and Michael also discuss broader trends in trade secrets litigation, including the growing importance of trade secret law in emerging technologies like AI and machine learning, where trade secrets often offer more protection than patents.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

The Spectator Sport of Legal Journalism in the UK Jan 16, 2025

Show notes

John is joined by Catrin Griffiths and Christian Smith, the Editor-in-Chief and Litigation Editor of The Lawyer. They discuss legal journalism in the UK. John, Catrin and Christian agree that UK legal reporting is more analytical and critical of law firm strategies than U.S. legal journalism. They attribute this to the UK’s centralized legal market in London and a British journalistic culture that favors accountability and critical analysis. They explain that The Lawyer, originally a print magazine, has evolved into a digital platform combining news, data, and insight, providing in-depth analysis of law firms' performance and strategy. The publication operates like a financial news outlet dedicated to the legal sector, reflecting the industry’s significant contribution to the UK economy. It covers everything from major legal trends to firm strategies and even lighter, cultural stories within firms. They also discuss the growing dominance of U.S. law firms in London, noting that American firms often outpace UK firms, perhaps due to longer working hours and more streamlined management. Catrin explains that UK firms historically thrived with strong infrastructure and global networks, though they now face challenges adapting to market changes. They also address cultural differences, such as the early retirement age at UK firms, contrasting with U.S. firms where partners often work well into their 70s. Catrin and Christian also explain the importance of maintaining authenticity when law firms engage with journalists. They advise against corporate jargon and encourage honest dialogue. Finally, they discuss how stories about small quirky aspects of a firm’s culture can often reflect broader trends and resonate with readers.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Inside $1.6 Billion Judgment Against China Construction America Jan 09, 2025

Show notes

John is joined by Jacob Buchdahl, partner at Susman Godfrey. They discuss the landmark $1.6 billion judgment Jacob recently won in New York state court on behalf of BML Properties against China Construction America, Inc. (CCA). The case concerned allegations of fraud and breach of contract over the failed development of the Baha Mar Resort, a luxury property in the Bahamas. Jacob explains that BML Properties envisioned the Baha Mar Resort as a competitor to the Atlantis resort in the Bahamas. Following the 2007 financial crisis, BML secured funding from a Chinese policy bank, which required hiring CCA as the contractor as part of China’s Belt and Road initiative. CCA, a subsidiary of the state-owned China State Construction Engineering Corporation, also became an investor in the project. The relationship soured as construction delays mounted, culminating in late 2014 when CCA promised that the resort would open in March 2015. Relying on these assurances, BML incurred significant expenses to prepare for the opening. However, internal CCA documents obtained during discovery showed that CCA knew it could not meet the deadline and withheld this information. Worse, the documents suggested CCA intentionally delayed completion to maintain leverage over BML, leading to a liquidity crisis, bankruptcy, and the loss of BML’s $800 million investment. Jacob explains his legal strategy, including narrowing the case to focus on fraudulent acts at the critical late stages of the project and contractual breaches that were clearly distinguishable from the fraud allegations. He explains that the trial featured crucial evidence from internal communications and expert testimony on damages and financial mismanagement. He also explains that the judgment is nearly twice BML’s damages because of New York’s high pre-trial interest rates. Despite CCA’s appeal and potential bankruptcy, Jacob remains optimistic about enforcing the judgment and securing justice for his client.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

A Conversation with David Boies Dec 19, 2024

Show notes

John is joined by one of the most famous litigators in the world, David Boies, Chairman and Founding Partner of Boies Schiller Flexner. They discuss David’s career, unique aspects of trial work, and the challenges of transitioning leadership in law firms. David describes his early years at Cravath, Swaine & Moore, LLP, where he became a partner in 1972, and his founding of Boies Schiller in 1997. He candidly discusses the aging process, especially the balance that exists between somewhat diminishing memory and the ever-improving judgment that comes with experience. Despite plans to step down as Chairman of his firm at the end of the year, David remains engaged in high-stakes litigation, particularly cases which may improve society, such as marriage equality and sex trafficking litigation. John and David also discuss trial advocacy. David believes that trials are both morality plays and peculiar searches for truth, shaped by a unique decision-making process that excludes jurors with specialized knowledge and forbids them from seeking knowledge in the ways they are accustomed to. They also discuss the unique pressures on courtroom lawyers, including the need to say everything right in real time, having a professional constantly trying to make you look bad, a jury that studies everything you say or do, and clients watching whose fortune or liberty depends on your performance. John and David also discuss the business of law, critiquing the hourly billing model and reflecting on the challenges of aligning client and firm interests in alternative fee arrangements. They agree that legal practice, while demanding, remains intellectually and personally rewarding. David also offers his thoughts on his late friend and sometimes adversary Ted Olson, whose integrity, warmth, and professionalism left a lasting impact. Finally, John and David discuss the possibility of a follow-up to David’s book Courting Justice, which chronicled significant cases from his career in light of the major cases he has had in the years since the book was published.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Execution on $310 Million of Intangible Sovereign Assets Dec 11, 2024

Show notes

John is joined by Dennis Hranitzky, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office and Head of the firm’s Sovereign Litigation Practice; Alex Loomis, senior associate in Quinn Emanuel’s Boston office; and John Bash, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Austin office and Co-Chair of the firm’s National Appellate Practice. They discuss sovereign debt litigation, particularly the challenges of enforcing judgments against sovereign entities, and the team’s recent success executing on over $310 million in assets to enforce in judgments against Argentina. Dennis describes his decades-long history of enforcing judgments against Argentina, starting with a case for Elliott Management in 2002, where strategies like freezing Argentina out of capital markets and exposing corruption were key to recovery. The team’s recent case focused on the collateral for Argentina's “Brady” bonds, instruments from the 1990s designed to make sovereign debt more tradable. The enforcement litigation was not over the collateral itself, but on Argentina’s "reversionary interest" in the collateral. Alex explains how the team discovered and leveraged admissions from Argentina's SEC filings to identify attachable assets, including Argentina’s reversionary interest in zero-coupon bonds held in New York and Germany. The legal arguments involved nuanced interpretations of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, including whether the reversionary interest qualified as commercial property subject to attachment and whether its situs (location) was in New York or Germany. John Bash describes the appellate process, in which the Second Circuit upheld the attachment, agreeing that Argentina’s reversionary interest was a commercial asset located in New York. The discussion highlights the intellectual rigor required in such cases, involving intricate property law and sovereign immunity issues. The podcast concludes with reflections on Argentina’s expected attempt to obtain review by the U.S. Supreme Court and the professional satisfaction the team derived from winning such a unique and challenging case.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

Co-Chair of SullCrom on the Future of Law Firms Dec 05, 2024

Show notes

John is joined by Robert Giuffra, Co-Chair of Sullivan & Cromwell. They discuss key challenges and strategies in the law firm industry. Robert highlights the evolving dynamics of law firms, noting that while traditional litigation practices are shrinking at some major firms, Sullivan & Cromwell has maintained and grown its litigation practice. This balanced approach has helped ensure consistent profits, even during economic downturns like 2008, by leveraging the firm’s strengths in financial, regulatory, and litigation work. They also discuss the complexities of managing equity partnerships and maintaining profitability amid changes in client-law firm relationships structures and the consolidation in the client marketplace. It is important to adapt to new market demands, such as expanding tech-related work and diversifying international outreach to include regions like Southeast Asia, India and the Middle East. John and Robert emphasize that it is also necessary to maintain a consistent firm culture that delivers high-quality legal services, noting that clients value creativity, cohesion, and competence. Robert shares anecdotes of being called in to resolve issues mishandled by other firms, attributing Sullivan & Cromwell’s success to the exceptional quality of its attorneys. They also discuss recruitment strategies, emphasizing the importance of attracting top talent and mentoring that talent as it develops, as well as carefully evaluating potential lateral hires to ensure they fit within the firm’s culture. The discussion concludes with reflections on leadership and the critical role of teamwork in professional services organizations. Robert references Harvard professor Jay Lorsch’s book Aligning the Stars and discusses its insights to managing talented individuals with strong egos. Ultimately, both John and Robert agree that a firm’s reputation rests on the quality of its people and their ability to consistently deliver superior results for clients.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

$330 Million Antitrust Win with Bill Price and Steig Olson Nov 28, 2024

Show notes

John is joined by Bill Price, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s Los Angeles office, and Steig Olson, partner in Quinn Emanuel’s New York office. They discuss the landmark $110 million jury verdict, trebled to $330 million under antitrust law, Bill and Steig recently won in the U.S. District Court for the District of Northern California. The award will be increased to compensate for the costs and attorney's fees incurred by the plaintiff. The dispute arose when Commercial Metals, a Texas-based competitor of Pacific Steel, purchased and shut down California’s only rebar mill, creating a regional monopoly in the rebar market—a critical component in construction. Pacific Steel planned to disrupt this monopoly by building a state-of-the-art, environmentally friendly steel mill using advanced Italian technology. However, Commercial Metals allegedly pressured the Italian supplier to block plaintiff Pacific Steel from accessing the necessary technology by creating a 500-mile radius “exclusivity” zone for the Italian technology around the steel mill they bought and shut down. Victory at trial hinged on simplifying a complex antitrust narrative into a clear, compelling story. Bill and Steig narrowed their case by focusing on the core issues, cutting extraneous expert testimony to streamline the presentation. They used an adverse witness, the former CEO of Commercial Metals, to expose the company's internal communications, which highlighted its intent to maintain market dominance by obstructing Pacific Steel's plans. Bill’s cross-examinations proved pivotal in exposing contradictions and discrediting the defendants’ narrative. The defendants primarily argued that the relevant market extended beyond California and that their exclusivity agreements were standard competitive practices. However, the jury found these defenses unconvincing, especially in light of evidence of deliberate efforts to suppress local competition and inflate prices. They also discuss the skillful collaboration between Steig, a rising young trial attorney, and Bill, a seasoned litigator renowned for his many trial victories. This case underscores the importance of strategic focus, persuasive storytelling, and adaptability in high-stakes litigation.

Podcast Link: Law-disrupted.fm
Host: John B. Quinn
Producer: Alexis Hyde
Music and Editing by: Alexander Rossi

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