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Episode 6 - Mark Durkan May 06, 2019

Show notes

‘Let’s look again at the Eames-Bradley approach to the past’

The Eames-Bradley report was the best approach yet to how Northern Ireland should deal with Troubles legacy issues, argues Mark Durkan. The former SDLP leader and deputy first minister was interviewed for the ‘Forward Together’ podcast series immediately before declaring his candidacy for Fine Gael for the Dublin constituency in the European Parliament elections.

Mark argues that the proposals tabled for the 2013 talks mediated by US envoy Richard Haass were “not as good as Eames-Bradley”. The challenge is also that “different parties are saying different things at different times”, making solutions more difficult. For example, “some parties... say draw a line under the past... and then in the next breath they're demanding pursuit of certain issues”.

He continues: “I don't think we can just simply draw a line under the past, but it's how do we create the situation where we don't endlessly pore over the past, but we don't glibly pass over the past either, because the past leaves a very real sense of grievance for people and not just those people who are directly affected... but also as a society.”

Mark goes on: “Eames-Bradley pointed out that it wouldn't be a case of one size fits all... people have different needs”. In many cases, people need an acknowledgement of what happened and its injustice. “And we should have measures for dealing with the past that facilitate those different ways. We know some people basically just want the truth to be told.” This includes, he argues, for Hansard – the official record of Parliament – to be corrected where government ministers gave an incorrect record of events. “There's some victims of the Troubles for whom the official record still suggest that they somehow contributed to their death, or holds them under some sort of suspicion”.

While the discussion over the constitutional arrangements for Northern Ireland cannot be ignored “what we need to do is get to a position where we can have an honest debate about honest differences over honest preferences as to whether it's United Kingdom or United Ireland as the best context for us,” says Durkan.

Mark also calls for a recognition that Northern Ireland needs to recreate a stronger civic society. “We need to recognise first of all that civil society has made significant contributions during the life of the peace process,” he says. “When we negotiated the [Good Friday] Agreement one of the reasons why we had a Civic Forum as part of the institutions was because we wanted to continue to harness that value and that insight”. Nor does he believe it was right for the Civic Forum to cease operating. “The Civic Forum didn't collapse: the Civic Forum became a casualty of suspension. There was nothing in the Agreement that said it should be a casualty of suspension and some of us argued at the time that the Civic Forum should be maintained even though the assembly was suspended”.

He adds: “I suppose we have the experience since then of seeing citizens’ assemblies and operations in a number of places, not least in the south... So yes we can look to try to refocus, to reach something along the lines of the original Civic Forum, but I think even if we do that, that could be complemented by - or indeed that could commission - various citizens’ assemblies. One of the risks with the Civic Forum is that basically it becomes a representative body of the main political parties, rather than actually taking people from broader society.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the The Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme, Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

Episode 5 - Linda Ervine May 03, 2019

Show notes

‘Reaching across the divide’

Linda Ervine is a community worker in loyalist east Belfast, who is also an Irish language activist. Her classes have attracted literally hundreds of people to study Irish at the Skainos Centre on Newtownards Road – proof that Northern Ireland must not be seen merely as a narrow concept of two communities.

“We've got to reach across the divide,” says Linda in the latest of the ‘Forward Together’ podcast interviews. “Sadly 20 years after the Good Friday Agreement we are still very much a divided community.” Interviewed before the Lyra McKee killing she says: “There's been a change in narrative. We have become less sectarian in words about religion and become more sectarian... in politics.” The challenge now, she argues is “to educate young people to realize that because somebody disagrees with you it doesn't make them a monster”. People are entitled to have different points of view and expressing those should not undo the peace process.

An important focus of politics and civil society in Northern Ireland should be on why so many people do not vote, argues Linda. “There's a massive amount of people out there who are not voting, so they don't feel engaged with the politics. They don't feel they have a voice. How do we change that?”

Linda is an advocate for a strong civic society. “What we need to do is create opportunities for people to come together with shared interests. And the main focus is not on the difference. The main focus is on what we share.”

She adds: “I think we have to have to have graciousness, generosity. And recognize that there are certain differences, but that's not what's important. What's important is the fact that we share this place. And we have to acknowledge that somebody might have a different political aspiration to us, but it doesn't make them the enemy.”

Linda continues: “I believe the majority of people want to share Northern Ireland, the majority of people want peace. People don't want to go back and the majority of people do not want stalemate politics.”

Even on the separate side of interface walls, communities have more in common than divide them, she suggests. The major problem is not sectarianism. Rather, on both sides of the walls “there was poverty, there was addiction, there was poor health, there was a lack of education, there was lack of opportunity. And unfortunately I know the area that I come from became a bit of a dumping ground as well.”

The focus now must be more on solving these problems than blaming each other for the past. “I don't want to disrespect victims. It's easy for me. You know I don't have a relative who was killed in one of these atrocities. It's easier for me to move on. But if we want to have a better future, then we do need to let go.” She suggests a day of remembrance on which we remember all victims, equally. “I suppose some way of respectfully remembering what happened, and mourn that and recognize that what we did was wrong. And that's all sides and that includes the government, the security forces – and that includes loyalist paramilitaries and that includes republican paramilitaries. And that includes us as members of the public who cheered for our side.”

Linda recognises the Brexit referendum has challenged the constitutional status quo. “Things are changing in the UK. We've seen movement in Scotland where there was a referendum which didn't end up in an independent Scotland, but that is a change that might come. If I could personally wave my magic wand I would like to see a federation of islands. The identity issue in an all-Ireland is not an issue for me.” One of her main concerns for the future is to retain the NHS and “the British way of life”. “For me, if a constitutional change has to come, I want to keep very close links with the rest of the UK and I wonder is there some way that a new discussion could be opened up because at the minute the only discussion we seem to have is the UK or all-Ireland. Could we not have an all-Ireland within a close knit British isles? Is that not a possibility?”

Episode 4 - Frances Black Apr 29, 2019

Show notes

Senator Frances Black is an independent senator in Ireland’s Oireachtas and a member of its Good Friday Agreement Implementation Committee. She has family roots in Rathlin Island and a strong commitment to addressing mental health challenges. Frances is also a very modest person. “I'm first and foremost a singer you know,” she says. “And I left school when I was very young. I don't have a great language. But I do know that people understand the language of the heart. It's also about warmth isn't it?”

Frances was interviewed in the latest of ‘Forward Together’ podcast interviews. She believes that while mental health was damaged in Northern Ireland – or the six counties in her words – many of the issues are common throughout the island of Ireland. “We know the suicide rates are huge in certain areas in the north, but we also know that the suicide rates in Cork are huge.”

She explains: “We all know particularly within the six counties people have been impacted by the conflict. And you know the trauma that comes out of that and how that can be carried on down the generations and the legacy of it. I know myself even travelling to the north, you could feel the tension, you could feel at any point there could be something that's going to go off, or there could be an explosion, or you see the army going around with guns.”

Mental ill-health is especially prevalent, Frances points out, in those families where a parent was imprisoned – and the impact of that has carried down the generation. “If you have a partner that maybe went to jail, or if you had a family member that would have been killed or shot or whatever, the huge trauma in all of that. So the way it was dealt with was being given a prescription medication. So there were huge amounts of medication given out. And that can impact the next generation... whatever community you are from, it doesn't matter because the impact is the same.

“The children nearly lose both parents - because the parent under prescription medication cannot be present. They can go through the motions. Often the eldest child will look after the rest of the kids and then there's this ongoing legacy that's carried on down and that's what addiction does.... I met with different communities - I met with both sides - the issues are the same, the heartache is the same.”

Those similarities include mental ill-health and addiction, while going beyond these. “The deprivation and the lack of housing and the lack of jobs and all of those things. People started to talk about mental health and I remember one man saying that he was with a group of young men and he asked them what kind of job would you love to do. One said ‘my dream job is to drive a van for the local supermarket’.”

Suggests Frances, another problem is that since the Good Friday Agreement, the closeness of communities has been lost. “No matter what side of the community, there was a great sense of community on either side, because everybody looked after everybody and everybody supported everybody. But more recently that's gone. It is not that same sense of people looking out for each other and that seems to have disintegrated a little bit, but they are still different communities. So my belief is that now it's about bonding the two communities.”

Dealing with that, she believes, should start with a greater focus on integrated education. “I know that there is a lot of work to do. And at the end of the day, I would love to see [more] integrated schools. I'd love to see the churches working together.”

Episode 3 - Avila Kilmurray Apr 26, 2019

Show notes

‘Strengthen and value civil society’

“Civil society needs to be strengthened to do more than just provide services,” argues Avila Kilmurray, one of the founders of the Women’s Coalition. “Civil society in many ways was the backbone of society in the 70s, 80s, 90s in Northern Ireland, whenever we were in the midst of The Troubles.”

The call for a strong civic society was made in the third interview in the series of more than 30 Forward Together podcasts. These were recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties.

Avila fears that civil society organisations have become focused on grant-funded service delivery, at the expense of their strong and independent voice. She believes that politicians in Northern Ireland do not have the self-confidence to encourage an independent civil society to make demands. “I suppose there's an understandable sense from local politicians, ‘Hey you did a great job, but back in your box’,” she says.

We should now consider the lessons from the use of citizens’ assemblies in the Republic of Ireland, Avila believes. “The assemblies actually proved quite useful for the political system, because they were able to sound-out quite difficult issues.” She regrets the passing of the Civic Forum in Northern Ireland, which was established as the result of a demand from the Women’s Coalition and which “did some interesting reports”, argues Avila.

“I think it was a shame that it was put in abeyance and then never brought back. But I think it was really because there was no understanding that actually participatory democracy doesn't replace representative democracy - it can actually add an element to it.”

A priority now, adds Avila, is to agree a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. She points out that this is a demand that goes beyond republicanism.

Avila adds that when considering the past it is essential that people’s experiences are heard. She says: “We need to create the space for those stories to actually be shared.”

The aim of the Forward Together podcasts is to promote a wider, more inclusive and engaged conversation about how we make progress and further solidify peace and create a genuinely shared and integrated society. We want that discussion to be mutually respectful, to be forward focused and positive. It considers the real challenges our society faces in the coming years.

This initiative is the result of a partnership between the Holywell Trust peace and reconciliation charity based in Derry/Londonderry and the Slugger O’Toole website. The Forward Together Podcasts are funded through the Media Grant Scheme of the Community Relations Council for Northern Ireland which also provides core support to Holywell Trust.

Episode 2 - Mike Nesbitt Apr 22, 2019

Show notes

The second episode of our Forward Together Podcast features an interview with former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt. Below is a snapshot of the discussion with Mike.

“Unionism needs to look and recognise that the environment around us is changing,” says former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt MLA. He adds: “I would like to see civic unionism becoming more active... Perhaps we need to build civic society that goes beyond the division and the politics of unionism and nationalism”.

The call for a strong civic society was made in the second interview in the series of more than 30 Forward Together podcasts. These were recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties.

Nesbitt suggests that unionism should learn from the way civic nationalism is being organised. He says: “I looked quite enviously at civic nationalism and their ability to come together in such big numbers at such short notice in the Waterfront Hall [for the Beyond Brexit conference] and appear to emerge with a united front. So I think it's up to the politicians to give some leadership here and try and energise people.”

He adds: “Unionism needs to look and recognise that the environment around us is changing. The demographics are changing. That does not mean a united Ireland is inevitable, but it is something we need to be aware of. Scottish nationalism is a threat to the union. English nationalism is a threat to the union and I would actually go as far to say that I believe the DUP, and some of their policies and their attitudes and their tone, is a long term threat to the union.”

Nesbitt continues by suggesting that more needs to be done to bring Northern Ireland society together. He explains: “Perhaps we need to build civic society that goes beyond the division and the politics of unionism and nationalism”.

Building on his approach while leader of the UUP, Nesbitt also argues that members of each of the main communities need to become more engaged in selecting the political leadership of the other main community. “Why do unionists only express an opinion on which unionist party they want?,” he asks. He points out that with the single transferable vote system, members of each of the main communities could express their preference for the leadership of the other main community. “And I think that's where we have to get to.”

Nesbitt also says that Northern Ireland society must seriously consider how we educate our children. “The way we're educating our children at the moment is not viable and sustainable. There's an awful lot of wastage by having duplicated systems.”

Thinking back to his time as a victims commissioner, Nesbitt calls on people to recognise the commonality and similarity of their experiences in the Troubles, irrespective of which community they are members of. He calls for more investment in counselling services.

Episode 1 - Bishop Ken Good Apr 19, 2019

Show notes

‘Christians should lead in healing Northern Ireland’

Christians should take a leading role in healing Northern Ireland, says Bishop Ken Good, the Church of Ireland bishop for the cross-border diocese of Derry and Raphoe. He also says that politicians should speak less and that civil society should find its voice.

Bishop Ken Good was interviewed in the first of the Forward Together Podcast interviews, a series of more than 30 podcasts recorded with leading figures across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to mark 21 years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. The interviews seek answers to questions about the future of Northern Ireland and the border counties.

Bishop Ken Good said: “As Christians we're not only interested in our tribe of people. We're interested in all.... I think the churches still can have important things to say about building a society for the common good.”

He adds: “We do have a role and I think we are playing that and it may be not getting much media attention, but we are involved in building bridges. We are involved in breaking down barriers. I think the churches work quite closely here in the city [of Derry-Londonderry].”

Bishop Good references his friendship with Bishop Donal McKeown, his counterpart in the Catholic Church. “It's interesting how people respond to it. They find it refreshing. They find it gives encouragement. It comes easily. It's a natural kind of thing for us. We tried to do it visibly to be seen to be friends, which we are, and we have a lot in common.”

Bishop Good regrets the passing of the former Civic Forum, which brought civil society together as part of the original Good Friday Agreement. Bishop Good also has a message for politicians – talk less. He says: “If it's not too rude to say it, I think I would like to see our politicians speaking less, or at least be reported less, and for Civic Forum people to be speaking more, or to be quoted more, or to be asked more.”

He continues in a message to radio and television programmes: “I think the adversarial way in which these things are set up is counter-productive.” It reduces the scope for political consensus, suggests Bishop Good. He adds: “At the moment the political system isn't working.”

But Bishop Good also says there needs to be more acknowledgement of the progress that has been made in ending the conflict and the huge loss of life. He calls on Christians to remember the principles of forgiveness and repentance, which can help society move forward.

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