Show notes
We biography Joe Kipp and join an archeological adventure in order to understand the fur trade. Then, music helps heal the traumatic legacy of history. Glacier Conservancy: https://glacier.org/headwaters Frank Waln music: https://www.instagram.com/frankwaln/ Eric Carlson art: https://www.instagram.com/esccarlson/ Behind the scenes pictures: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmSxSe2J Jack Gladstone: https://www.jackgladstone.com/ Native America Speaks Program: https://www.nps.gov/glac/planyourvisit/nas.htm ---TRANSCRIPT:--- Lacy Kowalski: Headwaters is supported by the Glacier National Park Conservancy. Daniel Lombardi: This is a story about the fur trade, about the collision of cultures. An epic crash three hundred years in the making. A collision slow but substantial, with whiplash still cracking to life in the 21st century. It can be understood through the eyes of someone who lived it—someone like Joe Kipp. This is his story. But it's also about history and landscape and about how we judge the past. And it all starts with the search for a missing cabin. Kyle Langley: So as an archeologist, we look at old maps a lot. They're useful tools. They're kind of snapshots in time. And your eyes are drawn to, to this cabin that's kind of in the middle of nowhere. Daniel: Kyle Langley is an archeologist here in Glacier National Park. And right now he's getting Peri ready for an adventure. Peri Sasnett: [to Kyle] Because there's not a lot on those maps. There's lots of mountains and lakes and stuff, but just mountains, lakes and Kipp's cabin. Kyle: Exactly Peri: [to Kyle] No other cabins. Kyle: Exactly. And every time there's been a crew in that area, they've looked for it. Peri: [to Kyle] And they never found it. Kyle: They've never found it. I think archeologists, you know, you put an X on a map kind of like that, and I think it's kind of like a siren call for us. You know, we will waste a lot of time looking for these things. [both laugh] But if you're persistent, you know, sometimes it pays off. Daniel: So they went back to look for the cabin—one more time. Kyle: We'd budgeted ourselves like an hour, and I think we were already at like three and a half hours or something [Peri laughs] and we're like, you know, we've got to wrap this up, should we give up, just about at home and— Peri: [to Kyle] It's probably the afternoon, you're supposed to hike all the way back—all the way out Kyle: You know, at some point, if you don't leave, you're going to be hiking out in the dark, in grizzly country. [both laugh] So, but, just happened to take a peek in the right batch of trees and found the remnants of a forge, like a old portable forge. And that was pretty much we knew right then and there that was where Kipp's Cabin was. Daniel: Peri and Kyle are united in their fascination with Joe Kipp, a complicated character that lived in Glacier in the late 1800s. And a bit of a trickster, perhaps. And Peri thinks understanding Joe Kipp could be the key to understanding Glacier during the fur trade era. And Kyle, for his part, he's obsessed enough that he named his dog Kipp. Kyle: Being lovers of Glacier, just like everyone, we wanted to name our dog something to do with Glacier. But if you go to the dog park anywhere in the Flathead and you call for like a Bowman or a Kintla, you're going to get like six dogs. [both laughing] So we wanted something a little more unique. Daniel: The archeologists now have the location of Kipp's cabin marked on a map, but they haven't surveyed the site. They know the facts of his life, but they don't really know who he was. Kyle: It's tough because we can't ever know them directly. I mean, he did interact with an astonishing number of historical figures who did keep records, who all wrote about him. But what you lack is kind of a full understanding of who he was as a person. He's kind of—he kind of fits in that intersection of fact and myth. And at the end of the day, you know, 120 years later, we're left with a kind of a semi-unclear picture of what kind of a guy Joe Kipp was. It's part of the draw of archeology in general is the physical objects and the places are things that you can connect to, whereas stories always leave you wondering. Daniel: Welcome to Headwaters, [Headwaters season 3 theme begins to play] a show about how this one place in the Rocky Mountains is connected everywhere else. [Headwaters season 3 theme plays, with the strumming of a string instrument, a flute, and drumbeats, then finishes] Daniel: This is Season Three: Becoming. It's a collection of stories of how the American West became what it is today. I'm Daniel. Peri: And I'm Peri. Daniel: All right, Peri. Today we're talking about the fur trade. Tell me what we need to know to get started. Peri: Well, our main character here is Joe Kipp. He was born around 1850 and died in 1913. So his life spans this really dramatic time in the Rocky Mountains and in the fur trade. He is of mixed descent—he's half white and half Mandan—and he makes a living doing pretty much everything a person could at this time. Daniel: And so, Peri, you would argue that he's still relevant today? Peri: Yeah, for sure. Joe Kipp is one of the most important figures in Glacier's past, in my opinion, but one whose name you almost never hear. Daniel: But he does come up, you know, in some, some dark moments of Montana's history as well. And I feel like his role, it's not always clear. Peri: Definitely. One example is in the negotiations over the Ceded Strip, which was Blackfeet land and is now the east side of Glacier National Park. You can learn more about that in the Two Medicine episode from Season One. Daniel: Yeah, and that's still a sensitive topic today. So tell me about Joe Kipp's involvement in these negotiations. Peri: Well, on the one hand, he probably stood to profit if the land was sold to the government and opened up for mining and tourism. But on the other hand, he was married to a Blackfeet woman, and he lived most of his adult life on the Blackfeet reservation, and he was really involved in that community. So it's hard to say from here whose side he may have been on in those negotiations. Peri: [narrating] Throughout this story, I've really kind of struggled with our ability to look back and make moral judgments about people from the past. My hope was that diving into this story and finding a tangible connection with Joe Kipp would help me sort through this. And it definitely ended up changing how I see this place. Music: [clip of John Wayne speaking plays over a catchy beat] There's right and there's wrong. You’ve gotta do one or the other. You do the one and you're living; do the other, and you may be walking around, but you're dead as a beaver hat. [sounds of footsteps] Peri: It's a warm summer morning, and Michael, Gaby and I have joined Kyle and Brent, the archeologists, on a backpacking trip to finally survey Joe Kipp's cabin. You can tell these two spend too much time in the backcountry together eating dehydrated meals because they refer to normal food as rehydrated food. [footsteps] Peri: [in the field] What would you be most excited to find? Kyle: You're looking for a skillet, right? Peri: [in the field; laughing] I'd love one! I've been told I can't take one home, so. Peri: I'm kind of obsessed with cast iron cookware. I don't know whether it's their history, their beauty, that they last forever, or that I just like to cook in them. But I adore old cast irons. And if I get to touch one artifact—one thing of Joe Kipp's—I hope it's a skillet. The archeologists are very fun, but they are also very fit. My strategy, whenever I need a break or a rehydrated snack, is to ask questions about Joe Kipp. Kyle and Brent get on a roll telling stories, and I get to catch my breath. Brent Rowley: Yeah. I mean, Joe Kipp was one of the most influential people in the latter half of the 19th century in the Glacier National Park region. But he was kind of all over the place, and to actually tie one location to him is really important. I mean, he had an influence on so many locations, but to actually have sort of a place that defines him as a person. Peri: [to Brent and Kyle] And so to you, why is he the most important person? Brent: I mean, he was kind of involved in all the pivotal events that happened in this region, but in kind of his own way. He was involved in the bison trade, you know, he was running whiskey across the Canadian border and had influence on even the border getting established. He was the guide for so many people, and he guided Grinnell through the park. I mean, he was, you know, involved with all these people. Kyle: I think when you compare him to other historical figures in the park's history, I mean, Glacier has a lot of big name folks. And I think what Joe Kipp's contribution was, is he's kind of exemplary of what it meant to just make a living and exist at that time. And in so doing, I think he kind of encapsulates what it what it meant to be, you know, someone in the 1800s just kind of making your making your way in the world. Peri: [in the field] Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, seeing history through this one person's choices. Kyle: Yeah. He's not exactly the common man by any means. He was definitely like, you know, out there trying to make a name for himself in his own way. But I think he's definitely way more of the like, a representative of the common man's experience. He just happened to have like eight common man's experiences, like, all in one lifetime. [all laugh] Brent: Yeah, that's for sure. [a beat plays, marking a transition] Daniel: Hey Peri, I think we need to do a little Fur Trade 101 here. Peri: [laughing] Okay. Daniel: What are they actually trading furs, I guess, but what are they trading them for? Peri: So what Europeans are training to get these furs are, for the most part, guns. High quality British rifles. At some points, alcohol is a big part of the trade, too, along with other manufactured goods and supplies, including cast iron cookware. Joe Kipp's father, James Kipp, is working in this trade in the early to mid 1800s, and he's focused on beaver furs, which are going to make hats. Daniel: Hats... like Davy Crockett's? Peri: [laughing] I think that's a raccoon? Picture men in the 1700s, 1800s in like black top hats, the men in Jane Austen movies, or on Bridgerton, or Napoleon's hat—all made of beaver fur. Daniel: Gotcha. The raw material is beaver fur, but the end product looks basically like felt. Peri: Yeah, they don't really resemble the original creature… but they're hugely popular and there's a big demand for those furs. But eventually, fashions change and railroads and steamships make it possible to transport much larger cargo, especially compared to a canoe. So bison hides, which are also called bison robes, become the more desirable product. Daniel: Okay. So how does Joe Kipp fit into all of this? Peri: Well, his father is working for the American Fur Company, a competitor to the Hudson's Bay Company that probably you've heard of. And he's living in villages with Mandan people for several years. And like a lot of white men in the fur trade, he marries an Indigenous woman. It's sort of a strategic alliance between the tribe and the traders. And so Joe, their son, is of mixed descent, which is sometimes called métis, and he grows up in this fur trade world. Daniel: So then Joe Kipp grows up... Does he do the same thing as his father? Peri: No, not really. He's more of a freelancer. He's kind of a middleman in the bison trade. He sets up these trading posts for a few years at a time near one native group or another, and they would bring in buffalo robes and other animal furs and exchange them for trade goods, supplies and alcohol. And he'd turn around and sell them to bigger companies. There's actually a Charlie Russell painting called Joe Kipp's Trading Post. You should look it up sometime. Daniel: Mmm okay. So what do you think Kyle meant when he said that Joe Kipp had eight common man's experiences? Peri: Well, he just did so many things. Our story here is about the fur trade, but things are changing so rapidly in the late 1800s. And Joe Kipp is involved in everything. After the end of the bison in the 1880s, he dabbles in prospecting, which is what his cabin is for, and he gets involved in guiding people around this area too, as tourism starts to grow. He hunted and trapped wolves; he was involved in politics on the reservation. Later in life, he owned a general store, a ranch and a stagecoach business. Daniel: So he did everything. Peri: Everything. Daniel: And I think you told me that at one point he was scouting for the Army and involved in the Baker massacre, right? Peri: Yeah. That's a whole other story, and a pretty terrible one. He said that he tried to prevent it, but there are some moments in his history that it's hard to know what to make of. Daniel: Well, what do people say about Kipp? Like, what did they have to say about his character, who he was? Peri: That's kind of hard to say, too. I mean, his obituary talks about his kindness and generosity to those in need, both white and native. It says, "though during his lifetime, he made great sums of money, the most of it went for charity, and he died by no means a rich man." And another account says his funeral was attended by "the largest crowd ever assembled on such an occasion on the reservation." Daniel: Do you think everyone's obituary says something nice about them, though? [both laugh] Peri: I mean, yes, probably. And the author, James Schultz, is known to tell a few tall tales. So in the end, there are a lot of stories out there about Joe Kipp, and it's hard to know where the truth really lies. [beat plays, marking a transition] Rosalyn LaPier: So my name is Rosalyn LaPier and I'm a member of the Blackfeet tribe, but I'm also Métis. My family has been in what is now Montana for many generations, including my Métis side as well. And I am a historian, an environmental historian. Peri: [to Rosalyn] You know, as a kid, it's just—history is this set of facts and dates and you learn it. And the more that I've engaged with it, the more it's like, oh, this is like it's a practice. It's something that's constructed. It's something that's built and retold. Rosalyn: The way historians think about history, history is interpretation, right? You know, there's four of us sitting in the room right now. Imagine that there is a car accident that happens in the middle. But because we're all sitting in a separate part of the room, what we actually see is going to be different. You know, one of us is going to say, "oh, it was this person's fault" and somebody else is going to say, "oh, no, wait, no, it was this other person's fault." I mean, that's what history is. Right? Peri: [to Rosalyn] Right. Rosalyn: And what historians try to do is we acknowledge that the accident happened. [laughing] Peri: [to Rosalyn] Right. Rosalyn: So that's the fact or the event or... but let's try and find all the different interpretations of about that particular fact, because it often happens that we only tell one side. We only tell one person's story. Peri: The history of the fur trade has dark moments, moments that turn Rosalyn stern, but most of the time she's funny and lighthearted. Off mic, we bonded over playing the fiddle and our love of fun dog names. Peri: [to Rosaly…
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