Show notes
In our final conversation we'll talk about some other Mormon Fundamentalism groups and how the race ban & Word of Wisdom are viewed. I'll also note that Cristina got married after this interview and moved to Canada! Her new last name is Gagliano. Check out our conversation...
https://youtu.be/wBE1qyHDzAg
Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti
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Modern Mormon Fundamentalism
GT 00:32 Is there anything else we want to finish with Joseph Musser?
Cristina 00:39 The big thing that I hope people go away with is that people imagine fundamentalism being, like, old timey. Joseph Musser died in 1954. My mom was alive when Musser was. This is not old. This is a very recent separation. This is a very modern religion. That's something that I've tried to drive home so much, is that the Mormon fundamentalist movement is just another way of being modern Mormon.
GT 01:06 It's funny, because he's clean shaven, too, on your cover there.
Cristina 01:09 Yeah, he looks like a Mormon.
GT 01:11 He looks like David O McKay, practically.
Cristina 01:13 I mean, maybe. Yeah, it's a modern religion. It's a modern form of Mormonism. It is not an...
GT 01:21 McKay was the first one to be clean shaven, first LDS prophet.
Cristina 01:24 You always see the pictures. Wasn't he also the one that really kind of nailed down Word of Wisdom?
GT 01:31 No, that was Grant.
Cristina 01:35 As like a part of the temple recommend?
GT 01:36 Yeah.
Cristina 01:37 It was? Because Grant also did the 'do you associate with people.'
GT 01:41 Right.
Cristina 01:42 Heber J. Grant, am I right?
GT 01:43 Yeah, yeah.
Cristina 01:45 Yeah, and that also makes sense, too, because fundamentalists don't have the same vibe on the Word of Wisdom. I mean, I had a beer at Bee’s.
GT 01:56 You can get your Journal of Discourses and your beer and your wine right behind them.
Cristina 02:00 Yeah.
GT 02:00 I took a picture and there was a big Journal of Discourses and wine and beer right behind it.
Cristina 02:05 Yeah, I had a beer at Bees. No one else joined me. But I had a beer at Bee’s and it was totally normal and fine. It was so funny at Bee’s Market, because Bryan was wearing a John Y. Barlow shirt.
GT 02:18 Oh, that was hilarious. I hope he wears that for my interview. I'm going to get Bryan on.
Cristina 02:21 Brian was wearing a John Y. Barlow shirt and Brian went in to use the bathroom. He was going to go buy water for me and a few other people. I was ordering a beer. This little girl runs after him. It was so weird. The mom runs and gets her. One of the men at the table was like, "What happened?"
She was like, "Oh, she saw someone with John Y. on their shirt."
The men were like, "Who was it?"
She was like, "I don't know. Just some guy with John Y."
Bryan comes out and he was like, "John Y. Barlow's son is in there." Now, for everyone, John Y. Barlow's son or grandson, sorry, there are many.
GT 03:04 Yeah.
Cristina 03:05 It's like when people are like, "Oh, I'm related to Rulon Allred." You and the rest of the church. I mean, not really, but these people have big families. Everyone's related.
GT 03:16 Right.
Cristina 03:17 But yeah, they don't do the Word of Wisdom the same. A lot of them drink alcohol at church.
GT 03:24 Mild barley drinks are just fine.
Cristina 03:27 I was told that that actually means barley tea.
GT 03:31 Oh, I thought it was beer.
Cristina 03:33 Yeah, I know. Yeah. But an LDS person told me it was tea. Have you ever seen barley tea at the grocer?
GT 03:38 I've never heard that.
Cristina 03:38 No, it's not real. It's beer. I don't know a lot of fundamentalists that will drink hard alcohol, routinely.
GT 03:46 Right. But wine is okay.
Cristina 03:49 Some will do it medicinally. A lot of fundamentalists use wine for church, for sacrament, wine of their own make. They'll make it themselves, so it's very low alcohol. But they will do that. Some will do hard alcohol medicinally; to make tinctures and stuff but I don't know a lot that will just have a margarita on Tuesday. A lot will smoke tobacco.
GT 04:13 Oh, really? I thought it was just for sick cattle.
Cristina 04:15 It's not cigarettes, but I have seen fundamentalists who smoke a pipe. I think some of the reason for that is like, I mean, Mormon...
GT 04:26 It wasn't a commandment.
Cristina 04:27 Well, the Word of Wisdom, it's not a commandment, certainly, it's a guideline. But the other thing is there is kind of an interesting thing. The Word of Wisdom is really concerned with heat, like hot drinks. There are some people that will interpret that the problem with tobacco is the heat aspect. And with pipes, pipe smoke is cooler, because it goes through the pipe. And so there is some...
GT 04:47 It smells so much worse, though.
Cristina 04:49 Pipe tobacco?
GT 04:50 Yeah.
Cristina 04:52 Well, my fiancé who's a pipe smoker is going to have something to say about this interview. (Both chuckling) I think it smells better than cigarettes.
GT 05:00 Yeah, I hate it.
Cristina 05:01 Cigarettes are gross-smelling.
GT 05:02 They're both gross.
Cristina 05:03 No. Pipe tobacco smells like a tobacco candle. No, I think it smells fine.
GT 05:10 Maybe I'm just used to cigarettes because people don't smoke pipes as much.
Cristina 05:13 I mean, I don't smoke. I don't smoke. You saw me buy two boxes of wine at Bees. I shouldn't say that I bring alcohol across the border in an interview. It's cheaper in Arizona.
GT 05:32 Because Utah taxes it too much. Is that it?
Cristina 05:34 It's cheaper in Arizona, you don't go to the liquor store. So, if I'm down there, I might as well go to Bees and get...
GT 05:39 Just go to the grocery store and get it, yeah.
Cristina 05:41 I do that.
GT 05:41 It's everywhere, but Utah, right?
Cristina 05:44 Yeah, I've always done that. Don't tell them by license number, or my plate number. But yeah, that's very common. Also coffee. There's Beans and Brews. There are many coffee shops.
GT 05:56 It was weird to me. They had self-checkout. Any teenager could go buy a beer and wine.
Cristina 06:05 I was not carded.
GT 06:06 That was weird.
Cristina 06:11 I don’t know. I don't know. But, yeah they drink--the Word of Wisdom doesn't mention coffee explicitly, or tea. It says hot drinks. What's a hot drink?
GT 06:20 The Community of Christ just says, "Let it cool. It's fine. Coffee's fine."
Cristina 06:25 I'm drinking an iced coffee right now. So, I'm very compliant to the letter of the law, not the spirit, but certainly the letter of the law. Yeah, because what is a hot drink? Fundamentalists generally look at it as it's good sound advice. You shouldn't be an alcoholic. But have a beer. It's fine. You'll be okay. There's a very different culture around alcohol and coffee, certainly, in southern Utah in any fundamentalist community. You've been to Short Creek.
GT 06:58 No, that was my first time.
Cristina 06:59 Oh, and you saw all the coffee, the alcohol.
GT 07:01 Yeah.
Cristina 07:02 There's a brewery. It's fine.
GT 07:05 Joseph had one.
Cristina 07:06 Joseph had one. It's fine. I mean, Brigham did. Well, Brigham had the distillery.
GT 07:11 I didn't know that.
Cristina 07:13 Well, a little tiny crack in the history. But he also had the Utah wine mission.
GT 07:20 Right, but that was for the sacrament. (Chuckling)
Cristina 07:22 With a wink and a nod, but that was a that was a big--when is [it in] the D&C about water?
GT 07:37 I can't remember.[1]
Cristina 07:38 That's before Brigham's wine mission. Or no?
GT 07:43 No, it's after, I'm pretty sure.
Cristina 07:45 Isn't it because an angel told them not to drink the wine?
GT 07:49 I don't know that story very well.
Cristina 07:50 Because it was like poisoned or something? I don't, either, but I have no reason to. Why water in church?
How Race Ban Enters Fundamentalism
GT 08:00 Let’s jump on the other things. But before we do, is there anything else on Musser you want to mention before we move on to other topics?
Cristina 08:10 No, I just want people recognize that there are significant intellectual contributions to Mormonism [from people who] aren't members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are people. I can't stress it enough that modern Mormonism is so multifaceted, and that the modern LDS Church became that in opposition to something. It was the renegade Mormons in southern Utah, who were for a brief period--they weren't giving the LDS Church a run for their money in terms of numbers. But when people were getting excommunicated, they had a soft place to land. That was threatening. Reading through the 1930s period with an eye toward it, especially things like Heber J. Grant's comment of, "Do you associate with people against the Church?" He was talking about certain people. He was talking about the polygamists.
GT 08:11 Right. We've always known that was about the polygamists. Sometimes I joke around like, ah, the boy scouts. (Chuckling)
Cristina 08:53 The Catholics. In the 1930s, there's a lot happening. It's a lot of different Mormonisms figuring out what's going on. I hope this book lets people realize that there's a lot of men vying for a very particular place and trying to figure out what is modern Mormonism going to be?
GT 09:30 Yeah. Well want to move past Musser's lifetime just a little bit and talk a little bit. We've got the AUB. They incorporate in 1979,...
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