Giving Voice to Depression: Real Stories & Expert Support for Depression and Mental Health

Latest Episodes:

Living with Depression: Finding Hope After Suicidal Thoughts Sep 12, 2023

Show notes

In this powerful episode of Giving Voice to Depression, suicide attempt survivor Mark Henick shares his journey from childhood struggles with depression and anxiety to becoming a mental health advocate. Mark recalls the stigma, the repeated hospitalizations, and the darkest moments when he planned to end his life—only to be pulled back by the hands of a stranger. His story highlights the importance of early intervention, coping strategies, and resilience-building practices that make long-term recovery possible.

Listeners will gain hope, perspective, and practical insight into what recovery really looks like—not as a sudden cure, but as a slow accumulation of positive reinforcements, strategies, and support.

If you’ve struggled with depression or suicidal thoughts, or want to understand how to better support a loved one, this episode will help you recognize the signs, embrace compassion, and believe that healing is possible.

Link to Mark Henick's TEDx Talk: www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1QoyTmeAYw

Primary Topics Covered:

Mark Henick’s personal experience with depression and suicidal thoughts
The role of stigma, hospitalization, and misunderstanding in early mental health struggles
The life-saving intervention of a stranger during a suicide attempt
Why early intervention and mental health education are critical
Practical strategies for managing depression and preventing relapse
Understanding resilience as the ability to bounce back, not avoid struggle
The importance of patience, perspective, and small positive steps in recovery

Timestamps:

00:00 – Introduction to the episode and hosts
01:28 – Mark Henick’s story of hope and recovery from suicidal thoughts
03:27 – Early warning signs of depression in childhood
04:16 – First hospitalization and struggles with ineffective mental health care
05:50 – Multiple suicide attempts and the night a stranger saved Mark’s life
07:18 – Choosing to share his story and becoming an advocate
08:45 – The importance of teaching children emotional literacy early on
10:23 – Why mandatory mental health education matters
12:20 – Coping with depression through medication, therapy, and relapse awareness
13:38 – Recognizing personal depression warning signs and recovery strategies
15:28 – Building resilience through patience, perspective, and coping tools
16:43 – How small, positive steps accumulate into long-term recovery
18:26 – Accepting relapses as part of the healing process, not failure
20:38 – The value of suicide attempt survivors sharing their experiences

Explore mental health and addiction treatment options at recovery.com
Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/GivingVoiceToDepression/
Terry's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/givingvoicetodepression/

Suicide Prevention Facts vs. Myths: Breaking Stigma and Saving Lives Sep 05, 2023

Show notes

In this episode of Giving Voice to Depression, mental health advocate Mark Henick helps us break down the dangerous myths and misconceptions about suicide. With compassion and clarity, Mark explains why stigma, silence, and misinformation prevent people from getting the support they need — and how understanding the facts about suicide prevention can save lives.

We discuss harmful beliefs such as “suicide is selfish” or “you can’t stop someone who really wants to die” and replace them with the truth: suicide is preventable, warning signs are real, and simple acts of connection can make a difference.

This episode is for anyone touched by suicide who wants to know what’s true, what’s false, and how to help someone in crisis.

Mark's TEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1QoyTmeAYw

Mark's book: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/so-called-normal_mark-henick/28860899/#edition=32308913&idiq=53531887

The website Anita mentioned: https://seizetheawkward.org/

Primary Topics Covered:

Why most suicidal people don’t actually want to die—they want relief from pain
The myth that suicide is selfish (and why people often believe they’re a burden)
Why warning signs are usually present, even if subtle or hidden
The truth about impulsivity and suicide attempts
Why previous attempts must be taken seriously, not dismissed
The harm of calling suicidal thoughts or behaviors “attention-seeking”
How interventions—sometimes as simple as conversation—can save lives
Why education, empathy, and persistence are critical for prevention

Timestamps

00:11 Introduction: Suicide Prevention Awareness Month
01:10 Why the word “suicide” draws attention, but prevention is overlooked
01:57 Guest introduction: Mark Henick, survivor and advocate
02:35 Setting the stage: common myths about suicide
03:07 Myth 1 – People who are suicidal really want to die
04:05 Depression’s role in narrowing life perspective
05:01 Why suicidal thoughts often mean “I don’t want to live like this”
06:42 Myth 2 – Suicide is a selfish act
07:01 Survivor perspective: believing loved ones would be better off without you
08:27 Why loved ones may struggle to notice signs in someone close
10:46 How denial and self-protection keep families from seeing the risk
11:53 Myth 3 – Suicide happens without warning
12:02 Signs that are often missed, hidden, or misunderstood
13:45 The role of impulsivity and unconscious planning
16:06 Why prevention must start upstream, before crisis
18:03 Myth 4 – Previous attempts mean someone isn’t serious
18:19 Why prior attempts are the strongest predictor of future risk
19:21 Myth 5 – Talking about suicide is just attention-seeking
20:00 Why suicidal communication is a fight for life, not drama
22:52 How lack of compassion and misunderstanding silence cries for help
23:54 Myth 6 – You can’t stop someone who really wants to die
24:54 Why interventions, connection, and crisis support do work
25:15 Final reflections: persistence, empathy, and taking action

Bipolar Recovery Journey: From Suicide Attempt to Ten Years of Progress Aug 29, 2023

Show notes

How do we measure progress when living with a lifelong mental health condition? For Rebecca Lombardo, turning 50 offered the perspective to look back and recognize just how far she’s come.

Ten years ago, she was in the hospital after a suicide attempt. Today, she’s celebrating a decade without self-harm, publishing books, connecting with community, and sharing her story to fight stigma.

In this candid conversation, Rebecca reflects on the realities of living with bipolar disorder—the hard days, the coping tools, and the support from her husband Joe that helped her move forward. She also talks about why positive self-talk, patience, and self-care are crucial parts of recovery, alongside therapy and medication.

This episode is a powerful reminder that progress is possible, even when depression tells us otherwise.

Link to the free Kindle version of Rebecca's book: https://bit.ly/47A7FvO

Rebecca's website: www.rebeccaalombardo.com

Primary Topics Covered:

Rebecca’s milestone of 10 years without self-harm or hospitalization
Why progress can be hard to recognize day to day
The lies of depression: feeling like a burden and unworthy of life
The importance of positive self-talk and communication with loved ones
How her suicide attempt changed her perspective on survival and love
The role of therapy, medication, and ongoing self-work in bipolar recovery
Using workbooks, education, and peer connection as coping tools
Why self-care and patience are critical for long-term stability
How sharing her story helps fight stigma and support others

Timestamps:

00:11 Introduction to the episode and Rebecca’s return
02:03 Rebecca on turning 50 and reflecting on a decade of progress
02:57 Realizing it had been 10 years since hospitalization and self-harm
03:57 Finding the right doctor after 25 years of searching
05:05 Why it’s hard to see progress when depression dominates thoughts
06:44 The lies of depression: believing others have better, more attainable lives
07:28 Celebrating milestones like publishing her book and helping others
07:39 Misunderstandings of her younger self: feeling like a burden
08:38 Positive self-talk and communication as recovery tools
09:56 Remembering her suicide attempt and its impact on her husband Joe
11:26 Choosing life for herself and future possibilities
12:08 Learning that medication is only part of recovery—self-work is essential
13:27 Online learning, peer groups, and writing as healing practices
14:44 Milestones from age 40 to 50: progress, growth, and hope
16:33 Advice to listeners: patience, self-awareness, and self-care
18:23 Rebecca’s blog reminder: don’t settle for the wrong doctor, keep searching
19:00 Why workbooks and therapy together can be powerful tools
20:41 The value of guidance, accountability, and professional support
22:19 Closing reflections and transition to Suicide Prevention Awareness Month

Supporting a Partner with Depression or Bipolar Disorder: How to Support Without Losing Yourself Aug 22, 2023

Show notes

When someone you love is diagnosed with a mental illness, it changes both of your lives. In this deeply honest and loving episode, Becca and Joe Lombardo invite us inside their 22-year marriage—one shaped by bipolar disorder, depression, suicide attempts, and a level of compassion and communication that could teach us all something.

Together, they share how they moved from confusion and stigma to trust, understanding, and a shared language for navigating tough days. Whether you’re supporting someone with a diagnosis or you are the one living with it, this episode reminds us that relationships rooted in mutual care can survive—and even thrive—despite mental health challenges.

Link to Rebecca's site: www.rebeccaalombardo.com

Primary Topics Covered

What it’s like to love someone with bipolar disorder
The early confusion and stigma in their relationship
How communication became their shared survival tool
Understanding the difference between support and fixing
Creating emotional boundaries as a supportive partner
How a suicide attempt and hospitalization changed their lives
Tips for partners: what to say, what not to say
The importance of mutual respect in mental health caregiving
Why both people need support—not just the one diagnosed
Building emotional shorthand and showing up with empathy

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro and episode setup
01:45 Revisiting a past episode with Becca and Joe Lombardo
02:40 The early days: fear, ignorance, and reconnecting
03:46 Joe on loving the person, not just the diagnosis
05:15 Becca’s suicide attempt and forced hospitalization
06:43 The trauma of separation and lack of control
08:11 Communicating struggles without blame
09:16 Why trying to “fix it” doesn’t work
10:07 Joe’s go-to question: “What can I do or say right now?”
11:33 Mutual respect, repair, and recognizing limits
12:29 Boundaries and healthy communication at work
13:08 Becca’s advice to partners: stay open and listen
14:34 Their work on social media and #KeepTalkingMH
15:48 Dr. Sanz on index cards, shorthand communication
17:02 The value of presence—even on low-functioning days
18:32 Reminder: relationships require support on both sides

Depression and Alcohol Recovery: Jordan on Sobriety, Healing, and Helping Others Aug 15, 2023

Show notes

For years, Jordan lived with untreated depression that he hid behind success in sports, social life, and eventually alcohol. Drinking offered temporary relief but quickly spiraled into addiction, hospitalization, and even jail.

After a suicide attempt and years of struggling, Jordan finally embraced treatment, medication, and sobriety. Now three years sober, he uses his lived experience as both a survivor of depression and addiction and a crisis social worker to connect deeply with people in their darkest moments.

In this conversation, Jordan shares how honesty—once seen as weakness—became his greatest strength. By saying the words “I’ve been there,” he gives others the safety and trust they need to believe in the possibility of recovery.

This episode is a powerful story of resilience, transformation, and the healing impact of shared experience.

Primary Topics Covered:

Jordan’s early experiences of depression as a child and teen
Why he hid his feelings from family and friends
How alcohol became a form of self-medication for depression and anxiety
The destructive cycle of addiction, relapse, and untreated depression
His suicide attempt and hospitalization as turning points
The role of AA, medication, and therapy in his recovery
Why honesty and vulnerability became his “superpowers”
Using lived experience to connect with others in crisis
The healing impact of saying “I’ve been where you are”
How helping others sustains his own sobriety and mental health

Timestamps

00:11 Introduction and episode theme
01:41 Jordan’s story begins: childhood sadness without a name
03:23 Why he hid depression from his mother and father
04:01 The mask of being a strong Black man in high school and college
04:37 First drink at 17: how alcohol felt like a solution
05:45 Addiction takes hold—AA, jail, hospitalization
06:22 Anxiety, hiding in closets, and living in isolation
07:20 Suicide attempt, hospitalization, and diagnosis of depression
08:25 Turning point: his mother brings him to detox
08:50 Committing fully to AA and beginning sobriety
09:28 Using lived experience as a crisis social worker
10:31 Why honesty and vulnerability connect deeply in recovery work
12:10 The possibility of a 180° life turnaround
13:19 Returning to the same county facility where he was once detained
14:21 Helping others at their lowest points as his new purpose
15:38 Reflections on how weakness became strength
16:31 Closing insights from Terry and Dr. Anita

Breaking Mental Health Stigma: Juliet Kuehnle on Language, Labels, and Vulnerability Aug 08, 2023

Show notes

Stigma keeps people silent—and silence keeps people suffering.

In this episode, therapist and author Juliet Kuehnle shares how she’s fighting stigma by openly discussing her own diagnoses of anxiety and persistent depressive disorder. Through both personal experience and professional expertise, Juliet explores how language, labels, and everyday choices either reinforce or break down stigma.

She outlines seven types of stigma, explains why words like “commit suicide” are harmful, and offers real-life practices—like vulnerability, authenticity, and saying “no” without apology—that help create safer, more supportive conversations about mental health.

Juliet reminds us that fighting stigma doesn’t always look like a big movement—it can start with how we talk to each other, how we share our truth, and how we show up for ourselves.

Link to Juliet Khuenle's website: https://suncounselingandwellness.com/juliet-kuehnle/

Primary Topics Covered:

Juliet’s lived experience with anxiety and persistent depressive disorder
How depression feels like “muted” emotions, not just sadness
Seven different types of stigma and how they affect people
Why language matters: shifting from harmful terms like “commit suicide”
Diagnoses as tools for understanding, not labels for judgment
Vulnerability as a powerful way to reduce stigma and build connection
Why “having needs doesn’t make you needy”
The importance of practicing self-care even when depression tells us we’re unworthy
Setting boundaries and learning that “No” is a complete sentence
How everyday choices can chip away at stigma

Timestamps

00:11 Intro – wrapping up the stigma series
01:11 Why stigma keeps people from seeking help
01:38 Guest introduction: therapist Juliet Kuehnle
02:25 Juliet shares her diagnoses and lived experience
03:26 Depression as “muted” feelings, not just sadness
04:13 Understanding seven types of stigma
05:22 Why diagnoses inform, not define us
05:43 The harm of using labels casually (“so OCD,” “commit suicide”)
07:25 Practicing vulnerability and authenticity to fight stigma
08:44 Choosing safe times and places to share your story
09:30 Vulnerability begets vulnerability—unlocking connection
10:36 Moving beyond the rote “I’m fine” to real answers
11:15 Why asking “Really?” can open the door to honesty
12:17 Vulnerability as risk and reward—our deepest need to be seen
12:47 Asking for what we need without shame
13:42 Why having needs doesn’t make you needy
14:18 Depression’s lies vs. acting in self-worth anyway
15:21 Self-care as a birthright, not a “should”
16:22 Boundaries, saying “no,” and leaving explanations behind
17:33 How practicing these tools reduces stigma in daily life
18:49 Why “No” is a complete sentence
20:20 How habits reinforce unworthiness—and how action rewires it
20:49 Language shifts that matter: “died by suicide” vs. “commit suicide”
21:50 “Has depression” vs. “is depressed”—changing identity-based language
22:56 Everyday practices that move us toward authenticity and wellness
23:53 Safe disclosure: when you can say “my depression is bad” and when you don’t owe an explanation
24:16 Closing thoughts on ending stigma and living authentically

How Ending Mental Health Stigma Saves Lives: Stories of Safety and Support Aug 01, 2023

Show notes

Stigma isn’t just hurtful—it’s dangerous.

In this episode of Giving Voice to Depression, co-hosts Terry and Dr. Anita continue the stigma series by showing how reducing stigma not only improves mental health outcomes but can also literally save lives.

Drawing on insights from past guests and lived experiences, this conversation explores how stigma keeps people silent for years, increases isolation, and raises the risk of suicide. It also highlights why acceptance, compassion, and open dialogue are the keys to making mental health safer for everyone.

From practical examples of how language and attitudes shape recovery to heartfelt testimonies from people who’ve lived with depression, this episode is both a call to action and a message of hope: ending stigma is possible, and it starts with how we treat each other.

Primary Topics Covered:

Why stigma is discrimination, not just misunderstanding
How stigma silences people and delays diagnosis by an average of 10 years
The link between stigma, isolation, and suicide risk
Firsthand stories of how stigma prevented or delayed help-seeking
Why talking about depression like a physical illness reduces shame
The importance of visibility, representation, and community support
Why ignorance is not an excuse—compassion is always possible
Simple, everyday ways to reduce stigma: listen, validate, accept
The lifesaving impact of being there without judgment

Timestamps

00:11 Introduction and series context
01:10 Recap of stigma series: research and real-life accounts
01:55 Defining stigma: prejudice and discrimination
03:00 How stigma silences people struggling with depression
03:40 The average 10-year delay between symptoms and treatment
04:21 Guest reflections on how stigma prevented help-seeking
05:54 Why many avoid therapy due to shame and appearances
06:39 How stigma leads to isolation and suicide risk
07:56 What life could look like if mental illness were treated like physical illness
08:41 The role of visibility, representation, and recovery stories
09:19 Why reducing stigma doesn’t always require big movements
09:53 Sharing stories as a proven method of stigma reduction
10:46 The importance of listening without judgment
11:40 Why ignorance is not an excuse for discrimination
14:02 Practical ways to ask: “What would help you when you’re struggling?”
15:43 Why presence and compassion matter more than advice
16:22 Closing with Dr. Corrigan’s words: “I accept you, I respect you, I am with you as you are.”
17:02 Final reminders: speak up if you’re struggling, listen if someone else is

Why Mental Health Stigma Matters: Real Stories of Depression, Shame, and Silence Jul 25, 2023

Show notes

Stigma doesn’t just hurt feelings—it delays help, worsens depression, and puts lives at risk.

In this episode of Giving Voice to Depression, Terry and Dr. Anita continue the stigma series with real stories from listeners and past guests who share how fear of judgment, shame, and misunderstanding shaped their mental health journeys.

From being shunned at work for taking FMLA, to hiding depression from employers, to living in silence for years before seeking help, these firsthand accounts reveal the very real consequences of stigma.

The episode also highlights research showing that on average, people wait ten years between the onset of symptoms and receiving treatment—a delay fueled largely by stigma.

This conversation is both eye-opening and validating: if you’ve ever felt silenced by shame, you’re not alone. And if you’ve ever wondered why stigma matters, here’s the proof.

Link to article: https://www.findthemind.org/articles/why-is-there-so-much-stigma-surrounding-mental-illness

Primary Topics Covered:

What stigma really is: prejudice, discrimination, and internalized shame
Why stigma prevents open conversations about depression
Firsthand stories of being shunned at work and judged for using FMLA
How stigma silences pregnant women, queer people, and faith communities
The “I can’t” feeling—how stigma deepens isolation and self-doubt
Research on the average 10-year delay to diagnosis and treatment
Why many disguise mental illness as a physical condition to avoid ridicule
The dangerous misconception that depression = weakness
Why reducing stigma is critical for suicide prevention and early intervention
A reminder that eliminating stigma benefits not just individuals, but society

Timestamps:

00:11 Introduction and episode framing
01:10 Continuing the stigma series—why it matters
02:01 Quoting Dr. Corrigan on stigma as prejudice and discrimination
02:49 Listeners and guests share firsthand stigma experiences
03:11 Is there stigma? “Absolutely—alive and well.”
03:57 Fear of disclosure at work due to hiring discrimination
04:12 Stigma as laziness, weakness, or unreliability
04:29 Listener: “If I had cancer, there’d be flowers and meals. With depression, nothing.”
05:12 Bipolar diagnosis at 70—why stigma still lingers
05:36 Guests share experiences of judgment before support
05:57 Stigma during pregnancy—“People don’t understand depression then.”
06:13 Queer and faith intersections where depression isn’t discussed
06:42 The “I can’t” experience—how stigma intensifies daily struggles
07:27 Why people hide their depression out of fear of judgment
08:28 NAMI perspective: stigma still alive, delaying care
09:12 Terry’s personal story—years of untreated depression due to stigma
10:18 Fear of ridicule at work forces people to hide conditions
11:06 Stigma linked to teen suicide, family heartbreak, and silence
12:14 Why depression prevention lags far behind heart disease and cancer
13:32 Learning symptoms of heart attack vs. lack of depression education
14:07 Why there should be no shame in seeking mental health care
14:28 Discrimination for being on disability due to bipolar depression
15:21 Why education and awareness are key to reducing stigma
16:15 Stigma harms not just individuals, but society as a whole
16:52 Preview of next week’s episode—imagining life with less stigma
17:11 Closing reflections: speak up if you’re struggling, listen if someone else is

Fighting Mental Health Stigma With Stories: Why Lived Experience Matters Jul 18, 2023

Show notes

Education alone doesn’t end stigma—stories do.

In this powerful conversation, world-renowned stigma researcher Dr. Patrick Corrigan explains why sharing personal stories of lived experience is the most effective way to fight mental health stigma.

Instead of relying on lectures or statistics, Corrigan’s research shows that real-life “on the way down and on the way up” stories—of both struggle and recovery—help people see depression and other mental health conditions with compassion and hope.

Corrigan also shares his own story of living with mental illness, explains why authenticity reduces shame, and explores how stigma is best understood as a social justice issue led by people with lived experience—not just professionals.

This episode is both a call to action and a reassurance: your voice matters, and your story could change someone else’s life.

Primary Topics Covered:

Why education about mental illness often fails to reduce stigma
How lived experience and storytelling shift attitudes and perceptions
The importance of sharing both “on the way down” and “on the way up” stories
Dr. Patrick Corrigan’s personal experience with depression, bipolar disorder, and anxiety
Why authenticity and coming out reduce shame and build connection
The risks and benefits of disclosing mental health struggles
How lived experience has driven other stigma movements (like LGBTQ+ rights)
Why mental health stigma should be treated as a social justice issue
The Honest, Open, Proud program and safe ways to share your story
Everyday strategies for reducing stigma and finding safe allies

Timestamps

00:11 Introduction and welcome
01:30 Mission of Giving Voice to Depression and this episode’s focus
02:24 Guest introduction: Dr. Patrick Corrigan, leading stigma researcher
03:16 Why education about “mental illness as brain disease” doesn’t reduce stigma
03:54 The power of face-to-face interactions and recovery stories
04:29 “On the way down” and “on the way up” stories for balance and hope
05:10 Corrigan shares his personal story of mental illness and recovery
06:29 Why authenticity reduces shame and creates “me too” moments
07:51 Comparisons with the LGBTQ+ movement and visibility
08:09 The risks and benefits of disclosing mental illness
09:13 Reframing the “dirty laundry” narrative—gifts that come with mental health struggles
10:06 Why stigma must be understood as a social justice issue
10:39 The importance of lived experience in leading anti-stigma efforts
11:49 Why disclosure must be a personal, well-considered choice
12:44 Honest, Open, Proud program: safe ways to share your story
13:59 Using podcasts and third-party stories to test safe disclosure
15:04 Dr. Anita on the energy drain of hiding vs. the freedom of authenticity
16:24 Recognizing the gifts of empathy, gratitude, and compassion from lived experience
17:15 The goal: not just resilience, but thriving and social change
18:09 Call to action: listener voices needed for future stigma episodes
18:45 Closing reminders: speak up if you’re struggling, listen if someone else is

Mental Health Crisis Plan: How to Stay Safe When Depression Worsens Jul 10, 2023

Show notes

When you're living with depression, knowing what to do before a mental health crisis hits can be life-saving. In this powerful and practical episode, psychotherapist Dr. Anita Sanz joins Terry to walk listeners through creating a Mental Health Crisis Plan—a personalized, written safety net to help you stay safe and supported when things start to fall apart.

This conversation continues last week’s episode on wellness planning, guiding you through the final, often neglected, phases of the WRAP (Wellness Recovery Action Plan): identifying signs that things are getting worse, building a crisis plan, and outlining what support you’ll need during and after a crisis.

If you or someone you love lives with depression, this episode provides a concrete, compassionate, and proven tool to make the darkest moments more manageable—and maybe even survivable.

Link to WRAP Plan Template: www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/WRAP.pdf

Primary Topics Covered

What a mental health crisis looks like and how to spot it early
Creating a personalized crisis plan before you need it
Who to include in your support system (and how to prepare them)
How to communicate your needs clearly during a crisis
Examples of specific crisis behaviors, warning signs, and support tasks
How to build “Plan B” when Plan A fails
Reducing shame and normalizing mental health planning
Post-crisis strategies and recovery steps
Why this kind of planning benefits both you and your supporters

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro and Recap of Part 1
02:10 What Is a Mental Health Crisis Plan?
04:13 Identifying Signs of Worsening Depression
06:30 “Point of Possible Return” vs. Crisis Mode
08:30 Defining a Personal Mental Health Crisis
10:35 Examples of Verbal and Behavioral Crisis Cues
13:30 Choosing Supporters and Sharing Your Plan
14:53 What Help Looks Like During a Crisis
18:30 Being Specific: Matching People to Tasks
21:06 Planning for When Support Systems Fail
23:03 Giving Supporters Confidence and Clarity
26:21 Choosing Preferred Crisis Resources in Advance
28:00 Defining Post-Crisis Recovery Signs
30:50 How Long Should Support Continue After a Crisis?
33:00 Reducing Shame and Encouraging Preparedness
36:45 Involving Supporters Before a Full-Blown Crisis
38:00 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

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