Stay ConnectedIn this weekly series, fellow startup founders Immad Akhund (Mercury) and Rajat Suri (Presto, Lima, and Lyft) explore current events in the world of tech, startup, and policy, offering insights from their distinguished careers and an array of expert guests.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CuriosityPodcast
Substack: https://curiositypodcast.substack.com/
Copyright: © Copyright 2023 Immad Akhund and Rajat Suri
In this episode of Founders in Arms, Immad and Raj sit down with veteran entrepreneur Dave Balter to discuss the ups and downs of startup. Balter shares candid insights from his journey founding seven companies, including his experiences with co-founder relationships, maintaining humility during success, and managing self-doubt as a CEO. The conversation weaves through various topics, from the challenges of scaling companies to crypto regulation and politics, with Balter offering particularly thoughtful perspectives on building company culture and what he calls "sponge and stone" behavior - the ability to absorb knowledge from others while maintaining relentless determination. The discussion also touches on the evolution of entrepreneurship and the changing dynamics between government regulators and tech companies.
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Immad and Raj sit down with Celine Halioua, founder and CEO of Loyal, a pioneering biotech company developing drugs to increase lifespan longevity in dogs. This episode highlights the unique challenges of building a biotech company, from navigating FDA approval processes to explaining longevity science to investors. The conversation also explores alternative funding sources beyond traditional VC, with all three founders sharing war stories about their toughest fundraising experiences. Whether you're interested in biotech, startup fundraising, or the future of longevity research, this conversation offers valuable insights into building innovative companies without relying on the typical Silicon Valley playbook.
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In this episode of Founders in Arms, Immad and Raj sit down with Roger Dickey (Mafia Wars, Gigster, and Untitled Capital) for a deep dive into startup ideation and product-led growth. Roger shares his structured process for generating hundreds of startup ideas, including his unique "matrix approach." The three founders discuss the joys and challenges of building consumer-facing products, and examine the nuances between different growth strategies, from inherent virality to word-of-mouth marketing, sharing examples from companies like Figma, Dropbox, and Wise. Tune in for an engaging discussion that blends personal anecdotes with practical wisdom from some of tech's most innovative minds.
Roger Dickey’s Startup Ideas List: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XgBM6DyFjH77lyobMgJep2C6YjIyAl9hwNAe7faoOaI/edit?usp=sharing
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In this episode of Founders in Arms, Immad Akhund and Raj Suri are joined by special guest Sheel Mohnot, founder of BTV Ventures and 500 FinTech. The trio dive into a wide-ranging discussion covering the state of FinTech, entrepreneurship in India, and the evolving landscape of social media. This episode offers listeners a blend of practical advice and thought-provoking discussions on the current state of startup and entrepreneurship.
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Immad and Raj sit down with Martin Basiri, co-founder and former CEO of ApplyBoard and current CEO of Passage, for a conversation that delves deep into the world of education technology and immigration. Martin shares insights on the challenges and opportunities present in the education sector, discussing ApplyBoard's unique business model and the impact it has had on international students. They examine the current state of higher education, the importance of immigration for economic growth in countries like Canada and the US, and the potential for innovation in ed-tech and the obstacles faced by entrepreneurs in this space. The conversation offers a thought-provoking look at the future of education and the role of technology in shaping it.
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Immad and Raj sit down with Paul English, the co-founder and former CTO of Kayak, for a deep dive into consumer tech startups. Paul shared some fascinating insights from his entrepreneurial journey, including building capital-efficient companies, leveraging AI to boost productivity, and the future of AR glasses and wearables. In addition, Paul shares why he believes founders should run both for-profit and non-profit ventures, and how he manages to balance multiple projects while maintaining low stress levels. The conversation features a bounty of practical advice and valuable lessons for young founders.
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In this episode of Founders in Arms, Immad and Raj dive into the latest developments in AI, discussing OpenAI's new O1 model and its impressive reasoning capabilities. The conversation explores potential applications for this technology and debates the future of vertical AI startups. The conversation then shifts to the challenges and benefits of remote work, sparked by Amazon's recent decision to require employees back in the office five days a week. Immad and Raj share insights from their experiences at Mercury and other tech companies. The conversation also explores the ways that remote work and technological developments have impacted local economies and consumer habits, and the need for more innovative indoor recreation facilities.
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In this episode of Founders in Arms, Immad and Raj welcome Silicon Valley legend Paul Buchheit. As the creator of Gmail, an early Google pioneer, and a Y Combinator partner, Paul shares his unique perspectives on the rapidly evolving AI landscape and its implications for startups and society. The conversation covers the current state of large language models and their potential future developments, opportunities for new social apps in the age of AI, and the impact of AI on search engines and Google's business model. Paul highlights the importance of open-source AI in preventing centralized control, and shares thoughts on how the interplay between truth and narrative shapes our perception of reality. This episode offers valuable insights for founders and aspiring entrepreneurs from one of the most experienced builders in the tech industry, discussing common pitfalls in startup narratives and the importance of seeking disconfirming evidence.
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Connect with Paul here: https://x.com/paultoo?lang=en
Read “Loving What Is” here: https://www.amazon.com/Loving-What-Four-Questions-Change/dp/1400045371
Read “The Beginning of Infinity” here: https://a.co/d/hFvJBvl
Immad and Raj are joined by special guest Greg Isenberg (Late Checkout) to discuss the recent buzz around "founder mode" and debate the merits of VC-backing in startup. Greg provides insights from his experiences building multiple businesses, sharing where he’s seen other ‘modes’ and highlighting the freedom and financial benefits of avoiding VC funding. Whether you're a founder weighing funding options or interested in startup strategy, this episode offers a thought-provoking look at different modes of building and scaling businesses in today's tech landscape.
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Listen to the Startup Ideas Podcast with Greg Isenberg here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-startup-ideas-podcast/id1593424985
Read Raj’s essay, “How to Grow Your Startup while being Cash-Flow Positive,” here: https://rajatsuri.substack.com/p/how-to-grow-your-startup-while-being
Read "Founder Mode" here:
Today on Founders in Arms, Immad and Raj explore two of the largest stories in startup this week: The arrest of Telegram founder Pavel Durov, and what Nvidia’s latest earnings report indicates about the future of AI. Immad and Raj debate the complexities of free speech, encryption, and international regulations for tech companies that Durov’s arrest has raised; before turning their attention toward AI to discuss whether we're in an AI bubble, how the technology might impact productivity across various industries, and whether incumbents or startups will play the greatest role in AI’s long-term development. Tune in to hear Immad and Raj’s expert insights on how these stories affect founders today.
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In the debut episode of "Founders in Arms," Immad Akhund (Mercury) and Raj Suri (Lima, Presto, and Lyft) explore the growing impact of regulatory capture on startups in Silicon Valley. They discuss how tech's focus has shifted to more regulated spaces like deep tech, fintech, and AI, examining both the challenges and opportunities for startups in these areas. The hosts analyze the current political climate's effect on tech regulation and share advice for entrepreneurs considering regulated spaces and an invitation for listener engagement in future discussions. Tune in for a better understanding of how regulatory capture will affect startups into the future.
In this episode of the Curiosity Podcast, Immad and Raj interview Bill Guttentag for a discussion on the evolution of the film industry. Bill is an award-winning writer and producer, best known for his films You Don’t Have to Die, Nanking, and Crime & Punishment. The conversation explores the creative process, how new technology will impact tomorrow’s movies, the financial landscape behind the film industry, and why powerful storytelling has remained central to great filmmaking. Tune in for an in-depth discussion on the challenges and rewards of creative expression.
[00:00:00] Introduction
[00:06:49] Documentary Filmmaking
[00:13:43] Programming
[00:17:24] The future of filmmaking
[00:24:51] Art and Award Shows
[00:28:28] Movie theaters
[00:29:30] Different roles in filmmaking
[00:34:26] Budgeting time in filmmaking
[00:37:01] Recent Work and Creative Process
[00:41:30] Funding creative film projects
[00:44:16] Dealing with rejection
[00:47:28] Building community
[00:52:41] Filmmaking and startups
[00:54:12] Evolution of filmmaking technology
Leadership expert and author Gautam Mukunda joins Immad and Raj for an in-depth discussion on the systems that determine leaders in business and politics. Gautam shares what makes a great leader, touching on leadership in both business and politics. They dissect observable patterns on leadership that can give us insight into the upcoming U.S. presidential election, as well as the qualities of a good president and the current political landscape. Tune in to gain insights on the systems that govern leadership and decision-making in crucial situations.
In a world where distinguishing between reality and generative AI is becoming increasingly more difficult, how can we protect ourselves from being influenced by hyper-realistic reproductions of an individual’s voice and likeness? Ben Colman, Co-Founder and CEO of Reality Defender, shares how their technology is currently being used to detect generative AI and how this new trend will impact tomorrow’s world. This conversation covers how AI is being used for misinformation, criminal activities, and election interference, and how we can avoid falling victim to a clever deep-fake created for malicious purposes.
Miles Taylor, former chief of staff of the Department of Homeland Security, joins Immad and Raj for a discussion on emerging technologies and national security. They discuss whether AI will be a useful tool or existential threat to national security and American Democracy, and explore how this new technology is already affecting the 2024 election. This conversation also covers a variety of public policy topics, including immigration reform and ranked choice voting. Tune in for an inside look at the state of American politics in 2024 and the future we are heading toward.
[00:00:00] Introduction
[00:04:26] Miles’ Early Career
[00:09:54] Time at the DHS.
[00:13:37] National security priorities
[00:16:05] The future of democracy
[00:17:58] The future of national security
[00:23:52] US foreign policy implications
[00:27:46] Current political climate in the US
[00:34:31] Ranked Choice Voting and Proportional Representation
[00:43:54] Immigration laws and security
[00:53:17] 2024 Election possible outcomes
[00:55:20] Immigration bill bipartisan struggles
Will new advancements in biotech soon help us treat rare diseases? Immad and Raj explore this question with Nicole Paulk, Founder and CEO of Siren Biotechnology, who shares how viral gene therapy has the potential to cure a wide variety of illnesses. The conversation explores the biotech field at large, how viral gene therapy works, and what medical treatments will look like in the near future. Listen in for an engaging conversation about the impact this emerging technology may have on our healthcare experiences.
Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:05:27 - Viral Gene Therapy
00:11:17 - Universal Gene Therapy Concept
00:13:58 - Applications in Cancer Treatment and Common Diseases
00:16:17 - Development Challenges
00:19:46 - Insulin Production
00:21:13 - Viral Gene Therapy Industry
00:24:03 - FDA's Role in Gene Therapy Development
00:30:21 - Potential of Viral Gene Therapy
00:34:07 - Biotech Company Paths and Acquisitions
00:38:39 - Future of Cancer Treatment
00:42:33 - Futuristic Possibilities in Viral Gene Therapy
In this episode, Imamd and Raj interview Loewen Cavill, Cofounder and CEO of Amira. Loewen is an expert in women’s healthcare, particularly as it relates to menopause. This conversation explores how societal taboos around menopause have stymied the creation of health products and treatments, how our hormonal systems impact our health, what role AI and biowearables will play in the future of women’s healthcare, and much more. Tune in for a detailed conversation on new innovations in biomedical engineering and the future of women’s healthcare.
Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:03:45 - Amira and the Terra System
00:06:47 - Predicting Hot Flashes
00:08:24 - Future Plans for Hormonal Imbalance Treatment
00:09:48 - Understanding Bioelectricity
00:11:20 - Amira's Product Availability and Impact
00:13:04 - Hot Flashes
00:16:35 - Women's Health
00:20:51 - The Potential of Sweat Analysis
00:26:15 - Inspirational Products in Women's Health
00:29:23 - The Future of Women's Health Products
00:32:27 - Complexity of Women's Hormonal System
00:34:24 - Healthcare Systems and Menopause
00:40:06 - Amira's Business Model and Self-Pay
00:41:21 - The Taboo Nature of Menopause
00:42:12 - Amira's Go-to-Market Strategy
00:44:23 - AI and Women’s Healthcare
In this episode, Imamd and Raj interview Sam D’Amico, Founder and CEO of Impulse Labs. Sam shares the technology behind Impulse Labs’ innovative, powerful cooktop that touts faster cooking times and energy efficiency. This discussion investigates why traditional appliances have been slow to change over the past 50 years, and how new developments in in-home battery technology are allowing homeowners to save money on their electricity consumption. Tune in to learn more about cutting-edge advancements in kitchen appliances and energy optimization.
Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:03:41 - Impulse Labs Origin
00:05:59 - Comparing Induction and Gas Stoves
00:06:42 - Battery Integration and Installation
00:08:08 - High-Power Cooking and Temperature Sensing
00:10:03 - Smart Appliances and Market Impact
00:13:47 - Manufacturing and Distributing Hardware
00:15:05 - Energy Savings and Battery Functionality
00:18:06 - Marketing and Industry Attention
00:20:46 - Copycats and Unique Selling Points
00:22:27 - Backup Power System and Energy Rates
00:30:44 - Consumer Electronics Manufacturing
00:35:04 - Future of Smart Appliances and Home Energy
00:37:08 - Hardware Startup Costs
00:38:08 - Future Home Innovations and HVAC Changes
00:42:31 - Future of the Power Grid
In this episode of the Curiosity Podcast, Immad and Raj explore the next evolution of education with Austen Allred, Co-Founder and CEO of BloomTech. Austen shares his unlikely journey to founding an education start-up, and how our current education system is failing students. This conversation explores how to mitigate the risks inherent with pursuing a degree, changing trends in student behavior, and how AI will change tomorrow’s education and programming landscape. Tune in for a fascinating discussion on the future of computer science education.
Timestamps:
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:07:25] Prolific writing and reading
[00:10:18] Learning to code in Silicon Valley
[00:14:22] Life-changing income transformations
[00:17:29] AI revolution in engineering
[00:24:40] Predispositions to programming
[00:27:30] Learning to code through trial
[00:30:40] Career orientation vs. social life
[00:34:20] Rethinking Traditional Education
[00:38:16] Rethinking the value of degrees
[00:44:29] Struggles and triumphs of fatherhood
[00:45:47] Life-changing job offers.
[00:50:20] How AI is transforming job search
[00:56:23] Programming and AI integration
[00:58:42] The evolving role of engineering
On this episode of the Curiosity Podcast, Immad and Raj explore the challenges facing San Francisco’s local politics with Sachin Agarwal and Steven Buss, co-founders of GrowSF. GrowSF is a nonprofit aiming to influence the local politics of San Francisco by informing and mobilizing voters. The discussion begins with a look back at how San Francisco’s most pervasive issues (homelessness, housing shortages, crime, etc) first arose and the impact they have had on residents. While faced with a difficult battle ahead, Sachin and Steven share their steadfast belief in the people of San Francisco and their hope for the city’s future. Tune in to explore San Francisco’s city governance and GrowSF’s efforts to drive positive change in the community.
Timestamps:
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:02:13] The influence of small groups
[00:06:47] Local governance vs. national politics
[00:10:33] Challenges facing San Francisco
[00:14:39] Local Elections in San Francisco
[00:18:10] San Francisco's far left contingent
[00:23:39] Unifying Bay Area governments
[00:26:37] Creating a “Rule of Law” city
[00:29:06] Insufficient public schools
[00:34:03] Public safety and traffic concerns
[00:37:26] Political factions
[00:41:23] Voter behavior analysis
[00:44:19] Politics in democratic societies
[00:49:00] Fixing voting issues
[00:54:21] Crime in San Francisco
[00:56:05] High stakes in democracy
In this episode, Immad and Raj discuss the emerging field of zero net carbon fuels with Prometheus Fuels Founder and CEO, Rob McGinnis. Rob shares the process for removing CO2 from the air and converting it into fuels that can power planes, automobiles, and much more. Tune in to learn how this new development may one day change the future of energy and transportation.
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:04:29] Prometheus and Process
[00:07:30] Liquid fuel and energy infrastructure
[00:11:13] Electrolyzer and carbon chains
[00:13:38] Nanotube membrane filtration
[00:18:59] Renewable gasoline and uncertainty
[00:19:31] Liquid e-fuels and battery alternatives
[00:23:20] Electrochemical stack advancements
[00:27:26] Solving energy grid challenges
[00:30:22] Underutilized solar and wind resources
[00:33:08] The cost of RNG and hydrogen
[00:36:09] Scaling up renewables quickly
[00:41:18] Energy security and climate change
[00:43:26] Taking on ambitious challenges
[00:49:13] Burying carbon in the ground
[00:54:09] United States senior level conversations
[00:57:37] Geopolitical battles in clean energy
[01:00:06] Solid-state batteries and electrification
[01:04:19] Energy sources and origins
[01:06:24] Solving climate change through technology
[01:10:13] Capital and future bets
[01:14:36] Government involvement in technologies
In this episode, Immad and Raj discuss biotechnology with Hannu Rajaniemi, Founder and CEO of Helix Nanotechnologies. Hannu shares the potential of mRNA as a platform for various applications, including lab-grown meat, cancer treatment, and customized vaccines. Hannu’s broad thinking and ability to tie biotech to social impact make for an engaging conversation that highlights the exciting potential of mRNA technology.
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Timestamps:
00:02:02 Intro
00:08:52 Nanorobotics and future possibilities
00:11:05 Modeling Biological functions
00:16:04 AI design for immunotherapy
00:22:02 Protein synthesis process
00:26:29 Turning cells into protein factories
00:30:00 mRNA modifications and antiviral sensors
00:32:24 mRNA manufacturing and IP disputes
00:36:26 Liquid biopsies for early cancer detection
00:40:24 Using mRNA for cultured meat
00:45:09 Protein structure prediction
00:49:05 Evolution of SARS-CoV-2
00:52:19 The deadliness of viruses
00:55:55 mRNA wearable and global immune system
01:02:26 Storing information through viruses
01:04:07 Exponential technology and genetics
In this episode, Immad and Raj interview Delian Asparouhov, a Partner at Founders Fund and the Co-Founder of the space-manufacturing startup Varda. Delian shares his insights on the potential of space manufacturing and how overcoming the difficult challenge of atmospheric reentry will be the key to opening manufacturing in orbit. Delian's background in venture capital brings a commercial mindset to the field of aerospace, offering a fresh perspective on space technology. The conversation provides a deep look into what the future of the space tech industry holds for entrepreneurs and the world at large.
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CuriosityPodcast
Substack: https://curiositypodcast.substack.com/
Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:03:10 - Delian's path from VC to Space Tech
00:08:25 - The Advantages of VC Experience in Aerospace
00:10:12 - Economic Incentives for Human Presence in Space
00:12:19 - Industrializating Outer Space
00:16:09 - Manufacturing and Micro-Gravity
00:21:24 - Pharmaceutical Applications in Space Manufacturing
00:24:38 - The Market Potential for Space Manufacturing
00:26:41 - The Importance of Crystal Structure in Pharmaceuticals
00:28:14 - Merck's ISS Experiment and Commercialization Challenges
00:30:20 - The Re-Entry Challenge in Space Manufacturing
00:36:12 - Automation vs Human Presence in Space Manufacturing
00:38:19 - Scaling Varda's Space Manufacturing Operations
00:40:14 - Varda's Mission Economics and Future Goals
00:49:42 - Over-engineered components for missions
00:52:10 - Permanent human presence in space
00:56:00 - Economics in space
01:02:10 - Varda's far-fetched mission
01:06:18 - Robotic aviation and Mars
In this episode, Immad and Raj interview Maxwell Brodie, the Co-Founder and CEO of Rain Industries. Maxwell share how Rain and other tech pioneers are leveraging new technology, such as early detection and autonomous vehicles, to curb the increasing threat of wildfires by rapidly reducing response time. With wildfires becoming more severe and widespread, this conversation delves into innovative solutions being developed to combat this issue that affects millions of people living in areas at high risk.
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Substack: https://curiositypodcast.substack.com/
Time stamps:
00:00:00 Intro
00:05:49 Rapid advancement of wildfire technology.
00:11:49 Autonomous aircraft for wildfire suppression.
00:30:16 Why new technology is critical to fighting wildfires.
00:35:03 Wildfires are a global climate issue.
00:41:07 Adapting to climate change challenges.
00:44:15 Developing multiple solutions.
00:49:27 Early detection technology for wildfires.
Join Immad and Rajat for an in-depth discussion at the intersection of science and art as they chat Cristóbal Valenzuela, CEO and Co-Founder at Runway. Runway’s technology is revolutionizing creativity by leveraging AI to create photorealistic motion pictures. In this episode, Cristóbal shares how AI will enable more creativity through augmentation, some of the ethical concerns of AI filmmaking, and how new technology will allow the next generation of filmmakers to share stories we’ve never seen before.
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Substack: https://curiositypodcast.substack.com/
Time stamps:
00:00:00 Intro
00:05:23 Tools for augmenting human imagination
00:10:36 Creativity is an exploration process
00:14:48 The future of creative tools
00:23:40 Creative explosion through AI augmentation.
00:26:00 Positives and negatives of Deepfakes
00:29:17 Early stages of video generation technology
00:34:00 Equipping teams with the right tools
00:40:09 Benefits of collaboration
00:42:52 Long-term, value-driven bets
00:47:38 How technology will revolutionize art
Join Immad and Rajat for a deep dive into the technology being used to combat climate change with Peter Reinhardt, CEO and Co-Founder of Charm Industrial, a company that specializes in carbon removal. In this episode, Peter shares how Charm is leveraging pyrolysis and dry oil wells to remove carbon from the atmosphere, why companies are beginning to favor carbon removal over carbon offsets, and the relationship between government agencies and private companies in combating global warming.
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CuriosityPodcast
Substack: https://curiositypodcast.substack.com/
Time stamps:
00:00:00 Intro
00:05:23 Carbon removal process
00:14:29 Growth of the carbon removal market
00:18:26 Machinery and biomass cost
00:24:05 The scale of reversing climate change
00:31:42 Carbon removal and reducing emissions.
00:32:16 Supply constraints
00:38:30 Governments’ role
00:44:05 Advancements in carbon removal technologies
00:46:18 Geoengineering risks
00:51:16 Working with hardware
Immad and Raj talk to Psychedelics therapy expert Dr. Jeeshan Chowdhury, Founder / CEO of Journey Colab
Key topics:
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Immad and Raj talk to popular macroeconomics writer Noah Smith, formerly of Bloomberg.
Key topics:
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Immad and Raj talk with the 'Edison of Medicine' Bob Langer - founder of over 40 biotech companies, including Moderna.
Key topics:
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Immad and Raj sit down with former Virgin Galactic CEO, Wildfire VC and current Congressional candidate George Whitesides for a wide-ranging conversation on multiple fascinating topics!
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Immad and Rajat go deep with Chris Best on how the written media landscape is rapidly evolving and how Substack's business model could transform the way we consume and build relationships with creators
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Immad and Raj have a wide-ranging conversation on how nuclear tech will revolutionize the future of energy with Yasir Arafat, MARVEL Chief Designer & Project Lead at Idaho National Laboratory.
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Immad and Raj have a wide-ranging conversation on how AI will impact creative roles with the CEO of rapidly growing Jasper.AI, Dave Rogenmoser.
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Transcription:
Amjad Masad (00:00:00):
Pain and pleasure are like core features of consciousness and they seem important for humans operating in the world. Can you actually construct that in a machine?
Immad Akhund (00:00:27):
Hi everyone. Welcome to the first ever podcast recording of curiosity podcast where we go deep with an expert in their field. The tagline is Delivering 10,000 hours of learning in one hour. So that's a <laugh> ambitious tag line. I'm ial, I'm the co-founder and CEO of Mercury. I've been doing kindness startups and investing in startups since 2006.
Raj Suri (00:00:49):
I'm Raj Suri. I'm the founder and CEO of Presto Automation, which delivers AI type applications for for traditional industries like restaurants. Also co-founded Lyft and yeah, very excited to be cotting this with you. Mad. This is an opportunity to go really deep into some really interesting areas with some of the smartest people and you know, most thoughtful people on the planet. So excited to be able to explore, you know, in depth.
Immad Akhund (00:01:14):
Yeah. And today we have Amjad Masad with us. He's the co-founder CEO and I believe now head of engineering at Relet. What's the one line of relet? Mjad.
Amjad Masad (00:01:27):
It's the fastest way to make software. We have a platform that provides an online programming environment that's collaborative and we have large community of developers making things for each other, for other people. And we're getting into supporting teams of developers in the same way that say, you know, Figma is a collaborative design program replica is kind of that for programming.
Immad Akhund (00:01:54):
What's kind of interesting is it started relatively small, right? This was like an ID online and I think you were like compiling whatever programming to JavaScript and running it on the browser, right? But now it's this kinda hosted package combined with the teams combined with like learning and template. Like was that always your vision that you're gonna like progressively get to this level of like product or was it kinda incremental?
Amjad Masad (00:02:21):
I actually sort of saw a lot of it in my mind's eye pretty early on and a lot of it is like pretty obvious stuff. I'm actually surprised that no one had built it because I started working on it in college in like 2009, something like that. And then when I came to the US based on an Oprah source project that's related, I worked at Code Academy as a founding engineer and used this sort of the same technology that I built to like make browser coding possible and then left that and went to work at Facebook, worked on React and React Native was founding engineer on React native. React native is like the best way to make cross-platform mobile apps. And in 2016 revisited the idea and had found that basically nobody had built it, which was really surprising. It is the opposite or efficient market hypothesis, like why is in the market not producing this?
(00:03:20):
And I actually did not wanna start a startup, but I was so compelled by this thing and I knew that this idea had to exist. Well it turns out I think the answer that why nobody had built it is because it's incredibly hard. But yeah, in terms of execution it was started very simple. But in terms of vision it was always, you know, I was an early GitHub user, like perhaps in their beta. I think I was so excited by GitHub. I was also so disappointed by how little they evolved beyond the initial sort of kernel of an idea. So I always thought about making collaborative developer community that's like more exciting that you can ma do more things in it. And yeah, you know, I've always imagined a lot of the features that we're building. Of course with time just what became available in terms of technology, we started adding a lot of these things that I didn't really think about at the start. But overall, like even like now we have this tipping mechanism where you can tip developers. That was like, I've thought about that like fairly early on. It was actually kind of frustrating cuz like as a founder developer, you're sort of like, everything feels like it's like one weekend of hacking away and it's like turns out, no, it's actually more than a decade <laugh> of hacking <laugh>.
Raj Suri (00:04:36):
Mj it's a really interesting description. You talked about the fastest way to make software, right? Is the primary user base people who don't normally make software or are not really comfortable setting up their own environment cuz that takes time Or is it more the power users who are probably already, you know, they already have a CS degree or something like that, they have a lot of knowledge. What's the primary user base for this type of application?
Amjad Masad (00:05:00):
One of the exciting things about running Relet is the user base is so diverse. It also makes it really hard to run the company because people like crave these simple personas. I'm sure you guys at, at your companies like the design team or the product team want to talk about one or two personas. But I always push back on sort of persona building because ultimately I tell them that we have one persona and that persona is the developer, the software creator. Because like you start segmenting people into students or professionals or hobbyists or, and all these segmentations are true to some extent ultimately, like if you're familiar with Clay Christensen's jobs to be done, I think that inversed the question. It's not like a customer segmentation thing, which is totally arbitrary kind of based on user characteristics. It might be actually interesting to go into jobs to be done a little bit.
(00:05:58):
But basically the idea is that most companies, the way they think about bringing a product to market as they think about a customer persona and that really confuses people about what they should be building and what the actual need that they're doing it for. And so Clay Christensen switched that question, like his primary insight is that people hire products in the same way that you hire people. When you go and you want some accounting done, you don't go look for like a middle-aged man in New York. You know, you don't do that, right? You go and you say, I want some accounting done. And you find someone who's competent at accounting in the same way that you want to get software done or you want to make software, you go to a place that makes it really easy to make software. And from that lens, I just think about our community as as sort of really the main jobs to be done here is that you wanna make something.
(00:07:03):
And it turns out students wanna make something. They wanna learn to make something hobbyists wanna make something, they wanna crunch some data, they wanna make a fun app, they want to make a game. Professional developers wanna make software to bring it to their customers. And so that's the sort of shared goal of our community in terms of like the makeup of our community. It's cues younger and there's partly cultural, partly some product limitations. The cultural aspect is that developers tend to be very conservative people. They don't want to change their tools and they're actually quite haughty and quite, you know, I love them. My best friends are developers, I'm a developer, but we're actually like difficult people. And you know, you see it in Stack Overflow comments, it can be a little, people kind of look down on things and people kind of tend to not change too much with time. They stick to one language or one technology. And
Immad Akhund (00:08:05):
I was just thinking why someone didn't like make this innovation between like when you started in 2016. And I think it's partly because of this, right? Like developers are like, they're often build like little incremental tools for themselves to make their life a little easier, but they don't think about like transforming their trade. Like you don't go like, oh I want to like do it in this new way. Completely.
Amjad Masad (00:08:26):
I think that's right. Which is surprising because developers are the agent of change for the larger economy. Or maybe it's not developers that are the agent of change. It's crazy founders that recruit developers to, to make changes <laugh> it's a tough market because the habits really change really slow. And like there's common saying that, you know, programming changes one generation at a time and that is sort of true. But today, rep is is has some product limitations that we're working through mostly on the technology side, like making an immediately accessible institute, producible cloud development environment. Turns out it's like a very tough like distributor systems problem, like one Yep. Problem that we've like dealt with that's sort of introduced like a big product limitation is that if you're introducing this multiplayer programming environment, there's a a potential for what we call race conditions, which is like people like trying to edit the project at the same time and introduces data corruption and all of that.
(00:09:33):
So we use the file system, basically the system that manages your files, that was what we call atomics. So basically every time you do a right, you create a snapshot of your entire system and that is really good for distributed systems to protect against data races and all of that. It also turns out it just introduced like a really hard limitations on scale. Like we can't have like a one terabyte desk per project. So some of the trade offs we made early on created limitations to how much power the platform has. But all of these are solvable. It just requires a ton of innovations and so we're, we're working through those right now. Yeah,
Raj Suri (00:10:15):
I mean that's really interesting. So you talk about again, the fastest way to build software is on rep. What do you envision will be the fastest? Give us some examples of like, you know, how fast someone could build something, how much faster they could build something in the future versus now. And I know you know you're thinking about AI or probably already working on it, you know, in terms of now we can support coding. It'd be really interesting to hear you as the expert kind of what the future looks like in terms of how fast someone can build something.
Amjad Masad (00:10:41):
The fastest story I've heard on Relet is someone coming into Relet with an idea for a product and getting it 30 minutes later. And the way they got it is without writing a single line of code is by relying on a human machine. Centar of sorts, <laugh> basically we have this bounties program where you can like post, you can pay some money Wow. And post like a description of what you want to build. Someone posted like a Figma. I actually tweeted about it. I was like hey, I want to build this. And literally someone got them a prototype in like 30 minutes and that person who's getting them a prototype is not just a person. They're also powered by ai cuz we have a Ghost Rider product similar to GitHub co-pilot. It's actually a little more advanced than GitHub co-pilot because not only has the auto complete thing, you can also chat, you can talk with AI that's writing code with you.
(00:11:37):
And so it's like, feels more like a chat G P T that understands your code and that sits right there with your editor. And so we're really trying to be un ideological about how people make software and the idea is like really trying to reduce the distance between an idea and a, and a piece of product. Like that's been the trajectory of sort of a human history where if you're sort of hunter gatherer and you have an idea for a product that's sort of impossible to do it right. Like you, let's say you wanna build a spear, that in itself is like really, really hard. You have an idea for a hammer for example. It's like impossible to find the rock the right size and do all the right. These things go into, you know, agrarian societies and it's still pretty difficult to make things probably a little easier. Industrial society got way easier, you now had factories, you know, had accessible labor. Capitalism becomes a thing where you can organize people in groups to create things, but it's still fairly difficult to get a product on the market. And I think the information age is reduction of this idea of like having an idea in your head and getting a product in the hands of people. And I think we can get it down to like on the order minutes, <laugh> like to get something on the market.
Immad Akhund (00:12:56):
Like right now you said like there was a human that was like potentially using an AI to like generate this thing, this kind of prototype. Is there eventual state that there isn't a human involved and like the AI is just generating something good enough? Or do you think there'll always be a human in the loop with like our current AI at least?
Amjad Masad (00:13:12):
So the way I think about automation is that it sort of like takes the, takes each of the jobs from the bottom up. That's like not always true, but for the most part true. I believe it's gonna be true for software, meaning the low skill software creation I think will get fully automated. So I think pretty soon probably this year there's gonna be...
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