For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast

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**For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast**

New York Times bestselling author Jen Hatmaker has arrived in the middle years, and she couldn’t be happier about it.Jen has navigated the ins and outs of life, from career to parenting, marriage (and divorce), spiritual evolution, and the joys of being a hardcore Gen Xer.With each weekly episode, Jen serves as our “everywoman” guide to all the seasons, past, present, and future, as she walks excitedly and tenaciously into the second half of life.Some weeks, Jen brings her perspective straight to you, just her and the mic, talking through the things we’re all navigating. Other weeks, she pulls up a chair for some of the most interesting and accomplished guests around, plus a few of her favorite friends, bringing insight, expertise, and a whole lot of heart to the most relevant topics of our time.While Jen has plenty of wisdom to share (and some pretty hilarious stories, too), she doesn’t claim to know it all. From her honest solo reflections to her compelling conversations with guests, she’s here to reassure you that you’re not alone in this game of life.It’s “For the Love” of all that is good, justified, exasperating, exhilarating, real, fun, and so much more.

Latest Episodes:

Inside the Fight for Better Gun Safety with MomsRising’s Gloria Pan Jun 28, 2023

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The Black & White of Feminism with Rachel Cargle Jun 21, 2023

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From The Church to The Pride Parade: Sara Cunningham with Free Mom Hugs Jun 14, 2023

Show notes

We’re back for more of our Being Seen and Heard series! In a time where it feels like we are struggling to really see and hear one another, there are some bright lights who make it their mission to help one another understand each other a little better. Our guest today, Sara Cunningham, the founder of FreeMomHugs.org, is one amazing example of what can happen when we really see people for who they are and begin to hear their stories. Sara was on the show right at the beginning of her journey with Free Mom Hugs, and now the org—which started with the simple idea of attending Pride parades and holding up a sign that said “Free Mom Hugs,”—has become a national and world wide phenomenon. She uses her own experience as a guide to how she advocates, and is absolutely passionate about connecting with faith, civic, business, and government leaders in efforts to make the world a kinder safer place for our LGBTQIA+ family.

Sara and Jen touch on these topics:

Sara’s roots in conservative evangelicalism and how she found herself moving “from the church to the pride parade” after she reckoned with her son’s admission that he was gay and going to live in his identity
The stories of people who, after coming out, lost their families, were kicked out of their churches, and felt completely alone and found solace and comfort in the simple act of a mom extending a hug
Sara’s son Parker’s (as well as her own) journey of self-discovery and then coming to live authentically after seeing others, who had come out in faith environments, survive and thrive after loss
How we can affect change with our voices as it relates to legislation that targets the LGBTQIA+ community

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Thank you to our sponsors!

BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!

MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info.

FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I remember there was a time, at the beginning of that journey, I call from the church to the pride parade. It was like reality was setting in. The bubble that I was in, the evangelical conservative mainstream bubble that I was in where everyone looked like me and talked like me, had just shattered. And I wanted to take a banner and put it outside of my house on the front door, like, welcome to the real world. And suddenly it's like my eyes are truly open.” - Sara Cunningham

“I think about [my son] Parker early on in his journey of self-discovery and then coming to live authentically. He had people in his life that had survived the loss, who had survived being outed, kicked out of their place of worship and losing their family. Just seeing them go beyond that and thriving and having a place of their own and working and contributing to society; he saw people that had faced what he feared and then came out on the other side of it.” - Sara Cunningham

“Our mission statement is that we empower the world to celebrate the community through visibility, education, and conversation.” - Sara Cunningham, about FreeMomHugs.org

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Mama Bears

FTL Episode ft. Sydney Hatmaker

Kai Shappley’s Website

Free Mom Hugs Revolution Conference

Kimberly Shappley’s Website

Seeing and Hearing the Disabled Community: Dr. Amy Kenny Jun 07, 2023

Show notes

We’re back with our series For The Love of Being Seen and Heard. There is so much right now floating around in culture about what happens to us when we don’t feel like we’re either being seen or heard. For most of us, the longing to be understood by others is a core need. And for some groups or communities, including the disabled community, the task of being seen, heard and understood is more challenging, and we’ll hear why as we talk with disabled scholar-practitioner Dr. Amy Kenny. Dr. Kenny has made it her life’s work to shed light on and help clear up misunderstandings around the abled community’s view of the disabled. Her latest book, My Body Is Not a Prayer Request does a deep dive into one of those communities—places of faith—and the particular biases and unintentional ableism propagated there. Amy compassionately offers insight and solutions toward understanding in a new way.

Jen and Dr. Kenny discuss:

Common misunderstandings that abled people have toward disabled people plus words and actions they can learn from disabled people toward connectedness
The “invisible qualities of God’s divine nature” and how we might be able to accept imperfections in nature, even considering them beautiful, but are unable to accept or find beauty in the imperfections of our bodies
“Inspiration porn” a phrase that relates to the overall view of disabled folks being the poster children for overcoming—putting them in the position of feeling as if they are objects on a pedestal and that their sole purpose in life is to inspire the abled
The challenges around access for disabled people and how to think differently about the right of access for all people

There’s hope in this conversation, and Amy guides us to a place where we can unlearn some ableist tendencies and learn more about a community that has much to contribute to our world.

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Thank you to our sponsors!

Chime | Visit https://www.chime.com/apply-debit/?ad=podcast_forthelove to learn how you can benefit from using Chime

BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!

MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info.

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“I'm not ashamed of my disability. It's an intrinsic part of the way that I navigate the world and the way that I am treated by the world and by various communities.” - Dr. Amy Kenny

"I grew up in a household and in a church community that taught me that everyone was made in the image of God. And I had the audacity to believe it. Unfortunately, I wasn't treated as though I was made in the image of God a lot of times because I received potions and prayers and all kinds of shaming tactics to try to pray me away, essentially." - Dr. Amy Kenny

"It's a beautiful interdependence that disabled folks bring and that we all can co-flourish when we have interdependence with one another." - Dr. Amy Kenny

"We create this hierarchy of worth in humanity where we have societally constructed ideas of what's normal, who's intelligent, what's productive enough--who's contributing enough. All of those ideas uphold, ableism, racism, transphobia, colonialism, they're all interconnected." - Dr. Amy Kenny

"My body is made of the same stuff as stars. Just watch me shine." - Dr. Amy Kenny

“I have learned from the disability community that I have permission to show up as myself.” - Dr. Amy Kenny

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The Power of Rest & Retreat in Difficult Times: Katherine May May 31, 2023

Show notes

We’re at the tail end of our For the Love of Calming the Chaos series–and if you’ve gotten a chance to hear the whole series, we hope you’ve been able to take away some actionable items toward further peace in your life. Our last episode in the series is the perfect capper toward extending that ability to calm the chaos during the disruptive times of our lives, but also during the heartbreakingly difficult times. Our guest this week brings us the very comforting message that simply bucking up or trying to cheerlead ourselves into positivity isn't going to cut it. She gives us permission to actively accept our sadness, and then some tools for how to process it and move it from chaos to a place of peace. Katherine May is an international best-selling author, including the books Enchantment Awakening Wonder in An Anxious Age and Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times. Katherine is going to walk us through not only her own story of a hard winter season she endured, and what she learned, but she’ll show us how we can be gentle with ourselves and believe that we deserve peace, no matter the circumstances.

Jen and Katherine talk about:

When those winter seasons come, just when you think you can’t or will never be happy again and the dark pit feels too overwhelming; that’s typically when the winter begins to cease and recovery begins
Giving yourself grace to believe you haven’t done anything wrong if you’re still suffering a week, a month or even six months later - the process of unlearning your old ways of life and relearning new ones can be painful and lengthy
Not all the lessons we learn come from happiness, they come from sorrow, and how to accept that

Chaos doesn’t just emanate from choices that we've made or that we've onboarded too many things, but sometimes when tragedy or heartache has found its way to our doorstep. Allowing ourselves to rest and retreat at these times is a gift we can all give ourselves.

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Thank you to our sponsors!

Rothy’s | $20 off your first purchase by visiting Rothys.com/forthelove

Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.

Caraway | Save 10% on your next purchase on all Caraway products by visiting carawayhome.com/forthelove and use code: forthelove

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“One of the defining parts of [a season of winter] is that feeling of being trapped in a space with a window onto the outside world. And it seems like everybody else is carrying on and they're all fine. And you are uniquely not fine.” - Katherine May

“There's something about how raw you are in that time [of suffering]. So there are moments of intense beauty that are an integral part of this, part of the suffering.”- Katherine May

“People who've gone through major winters always seem to look back and say, ‘do you know what? I wouldn't have not gone through it if it meant that I couldn't be who I am now.’ You almost appreciate them because change is always necessary.” - Katherine May

“You are not alone. You feel very alone, but you are actually part of a massive community of other people who are going through the same thing as you, but maybe for different reasons. And there's this incredible bond between all of you that might not be obvious, but you can trust this space and you can trust your sadness.” - Katherine May

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Enchantment: Awakening Wonder in an Anxious Age - book by Katherine May

Wintering, the Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times - book by ...

The Emotional (and Sometimes Chaotic) Life of Teenagers with Dr. Lisa Damour May 24, 2023

Show notes

Calling all parents of adolescents, or those of you who are about to have adolescents in your midst–if you’ve been feeling like you’re not sure what is normal in the emotional landscape of teenagers, we’re here to help. Face it—teenagers are literally in the epicenter of chaos–and because they live in our homes, sometimes it bleeds into our lives too. These kids are in developmental flux and there’s so much on them with school work, keeping up grades, extracurricular activities, friends (not to mention friend drama), anxiety about college—it’s a lot. But we can find ways to stand by them in their emotions, without getting too overcome with our own–and help them manage all this chaos in a way that serves them, and serves the whole family. Our guest this week is the perfect breath of calm in the midst of teen emotional chaos–she’s lived it, she studies it and she practices in it. Dr. Lisa Damour is a New York Times bestselling author who has written a book on the subject called The Emotional Lives of Teenagers, in addition to being an expert on adolescent development and family mental health. She and Jen hit the high points of:

The seven developmental tasks that teenagers face
Why the emotional world of teenagers is very different than during any other time in their life, and how they navigate emotions and how they express them
How to know when a teenager is having a mental health crisis or if it’s just a teenager being a teenager
How to manage a meltdown in nine steps

Dr. Lisa gives us actionable tools to help understand teenagers and gently guide them as they wade through the somewhat chaotic season of adolescence.

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Thank you to our sponsors!

Betterhelp | 10% off your first month. Visit Betterhelp.com/forthelove

Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.

Thistle Farms | Use code For the Love for 15%off at checkout. Visit https://thistlefarms.org

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“There is so much change in an incredibly short period of time. There are so many demands on that teenager in terms of how they're gonna grow, what is gonna be different between when they were 11 to 18. I mean, those are not the same people” - Dr. Lisa Damour

“Teenagers make choices that can have a very dramatic impact on what's available to them in young adulthood, in terms of their options” - Dr. Lisa Damour

"I think so often when we think we're listening, we're not listening. We're waiting for [our teenager] to pause so that we can make a suggestion. That's not listening." - Dr. Lisa Damour

"Once your kid is into adolescence and is more autonomous and wanting more independence, and they come in close and ask for support--savor it and set your watch by the fact that it is gonna end probably within the next 30 seconds and it's not gonna end in a nice way." - Dr. Lisa Damour

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

Untangled by Dr. Lisa Damour

Under Pressure by Dr. Lisa Damour

The Emotional Lives of Teenagers by Dr. Lisa Damour

The Ask Lisa Podcast

The Little Mermaid

Dr. Damour’s Bookmarks

Guest’s Links

Dr. Damour’s website

Dr. Damour’s Instagram

Dr. Damour’s ...

Inviting Calm into Your Life and Home: Emily P. Freeman and Myquillyn Smith May 17, 2023

Show notes

In our ongoing quest to squash the chaos in our lives, we’re talking to two experts (who are in fact sisters) who literally help us create space for our souls and our homes to breathe. Emily P. Freeman hosts the Do the Next Right Thing podcast where listeners flock to hear her soothing voice guide them with small ways to achieve mental clarity and avoid analysis paralysis when making decisions. Her sister, Myquillyn Smith, better known as The Nester, has the superpower of helping us create peace in the physical places we live with smart solutions that tweak our spaces to bring us calm–because when our homes feel out of control, our inner chaos rises as well.

Highlights from this discussion with Jen, Emily, and Myquillyn include:

How Emily and Myquillyn played with their Barbies as young girls was indicative of the roads they chose later in life
How sometimes the things that we are influenced to purchase to help us conquer chaos can become triggers for chaos (ie: THE BASKET PEOPLE)
How to not get bogged down with the pressure to plan your whole life, and how looking at past decisions can inform the decisions you make in the future
What it means to “quiet a room” in order to bring calm to your living spaces

Join Jen, Emily, and Myquillyn as we all seek a little refreshment for our lives and homes.

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Thank you to our sponsors!

Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.

Thistle Farms | Use code For the Love for 15%off at checkout. Visit https://thistlefarms.org

Jen Hatmaker & Friends Cruise | Book your spot now at JenHatmaker.com/cruise

Thought-Provoking Quotes

"We would play Barbies—like I'm talking multiple levels of Barbie life. But the thing is, the way we moved through our Barbie life as kids echoes into adulthood. It is the way that we live our lives as grownups." - Emily P. Freeman

"Decision making and discernment is not something we can quit, ignore, graduate, retire from, or often delegate. It is always with us. Unfortunately, sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not. And let's not forget it is a great privilege to be able to make a choice at all." - Emily P. Freeman

"There are tons of studies about clutter and chaos and what it does to our literal heartbeat, the stress that we feel." - Myquillyn Smith

"Our best teachers for decisions we are going to make in the future are the decisions we've already made in the past." Emily P. Freeman

"The work of discernment is so much less about what should I do or not do? It's about can I trust myself?" - Emily P. Freeman

“If you think of every single singular item in your space, having a voice over the months, over the years, maybe decades—it gets louder and louder.” - Myquillyn Smith

“We think creating a beautiful home is about what we add in, but often it's about what we remove.” - Myquillyn Smith

“If you cannot put your decision into a sentence, then it is not time to make the decision yet.” - Emily P. Freeman

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

The Next Right Thing Podcast

The Next Right Thing Book by Emily Freeman

The Next Right Thing Guided Journal by Emily Freeman

Emily P. Freeman's For the Love Podcast Episode

The Cozy Minimalist

17 Questions that Changed My Life by TIm Ferris

[BOOK CLUB BONUS] Kerri Maher: “The Paris Bookseller” May 12, 2023

Show notes

It’s time for a good spring read–and what could be better than taking a literary trip to Paris in the spring? We are so excited to introduce you to Kerri Maher, the brilliant author of our latest book club pick, 'The Paris Bookseller.' Kerri is a rising star in the literary world, known for her captivating historical fiction that transports readers to different times and places. Kerri is the author of several critically acclaimed novels, including 'The Kennedy Debutante' and 'The Girl in White Gloves,' which have been praised for their historical detail and complex characters. In ‘The Paris Bookseller’, Kerri takes us to post-WWI Paris, where Maher brings to life Sylvia Beach, the founder of the bookstore Shakespeare and Company. 'The Paris Bookseller' is a tribute to the power of literature and the strength of women. Come be a part of the conversation here with us, and if you aren’t already a member of the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, jump on over to jenhatmakerbookclub.com after this episode to sign up!

Thought-Provoking Quotes:

“It's amazing how much I learned about writing fiction from writing the truth.” - Kerri Maher

“I spent a lot of time in the research stage of that novel feeling inadequate. Who am I to write about these people? I'm just some housewife with five unpublished novels in my attic. And two writer friends from very different parts of my writing life responded to that comment in almost exactly the same way. They were like, ‘but Kerri, this is your novel, isn't it? I was and that was very liberating to me.” - Kerri Maher

“I've really had to embrace representing real people and real time periods. Yes,I want to absolutely do right by them. I want to kind of represent the truth of their essence.. But I also have to cop to the fact and respect the fact that these are my versions of these people.” - Kerri Maher

Kerri’s Links

Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode

The Kennedy Debutante book by Kerri Maher

The Girl in White Gloves book by Kerri Maher

All You Have to Do Is Call book by Kerri Maher The Paris Wife book by Paula McClain

A Moveable Feast book by Ernest Hemingway

Ulysses book by James Joyce

Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow book by Gabrielle Zevin

The House of Eve book by Sadeqa Johnson

The Midnight Library by Matt Haig

Connect with Jen!

From Chaos to Healing: Stephanie Foo’s Experience with Complex PTSD May 10, 2023

Show notes

Sometimes, bad things happen (obvi, right?). Many times, we know what’s happening to us in the moment is awful and wrong. We know that it’s painful. But sometimes, we don’t know how bad those things were until that pain shows up again in our lives, maybe years later, in a completely different way. And when these seemingly bad things come up, our lives are thrown into a tailspin—creating chaos and unhappiness and we’re not even even sure why. So how do we begin to identify the source of the darkness? How do we walk toward healing when the muck of our trauma is so deep we feel like we can’t move forward? Our guest this week has navigated through this very thing (and is still navigating it). The chaotic parts, the hard parts, the painful parts. Author and This American Life producer Stephanie Foo had found success in her thirties–working at her dream job and in a loving relationship. But behind her office door she was having panic attacks daily and sobbing at her desk. After years of questioning what was wrong (and blaming herself), she was diagnosed with complex PTSD–a condition that happens when trauma occurs again and again over many years. She was determined to understand this diagnosis, and the result of her findings is a beautiful and powerful memoir called What My Bones Know. Jen and Stephanie have an illuminating discussion around these topics:

The difference between PTSD and complex PTSD and why that’s an important distinction when it comes to healing
How an unresolved mental health issue can impact our physical health, which can manifest (as it did for Stephanie) in panic attacks, joint issues, migraines, and endometriosis.
How our traumas can be handed down through previous generations through our genes, but also through how we were (or weren’t) nurtured.
What it feels like to pull back the curtain on our coping mechanisms to reveal why we react to things the way we do, or why we put up walls in safe places with safe people

Join us for this very real, raw, but gentle conversation as Stephanie’s story sheds light on how to walk away from chaos into healing.

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Thank you to our sponsors!

Chime | Visit https://www.chime.com/apply-debit/?ad=podcast_forthelove to learn how you can benefit by using chime

BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!

Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.

Thought-Provoking Quotes

“You can get traditional PTSD from a single traumatic event. So if you're in a car crash, you can get PTSD. Complex PTSD is kind of like if you were in that car crash every week for five years; it's when the trauma occurs over and over and over.” - Stephanie Foo

“I felt scared all the time and I was burning out at work. I felt unable to actually produce. It was around 2018, and work had always been my constant source of comfort. And no matter how depressed or anxious I was, I would always be able to be productive. So when I found myself struggling to do that, I felt sort of lost.” - Stephanie Foo

“I may have inherited my grandmother's desire and ability to hustle and that might be in my genes. It might be through nurture as well, not nature, and what I was taught as a child. It's kind of a mystery, but it certainly would explain a lot.” - Stephanie Foo

Guest’s Links:

Stephanie’s Website

Stepanie’s Instagram

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Complex PTSD

Mala ...

Drama Free: Untangling Chaotic Relationships with Nedra Tawwab May 03, 2023

Show notes