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Episode Summary Politics is a battle over elections and policies, but underneath it’s really a battle over stories, the cultural myths that shape our sense of identity, power, and possibility. And few stories loom larger in the American imagination than the saga of Tupac Shakur, the rapper and actor whose influence continues to resonate across the globe nearly 30 years after his death.It’s easy to see why. The problems of poverty, racism, capitalism, and inequality are as present today as they were when Tupac and other early hip-hop musicians began telling stories that no one else would.Talking about all of this with me today is Dean Van Nguyen. He’s the author of a new biography of Tupac Shakur called “Words for My Comrades: A Political History of Tupac Shakur” that highlights the political legacy that was lost when the emcee was gunned down in the streets of Las Vegas in 1996. While today’s rap industry has largely been absorbed by the capitalism its pioneers once resisted, the radical spirit Tupac embodied still echoes—sometimes in unexpected places.One of those places is Donald Trump’s political movement. In a bizarre turn, Trump has increasingly styled himself as a hip-hop folk hero—and, surprisingly, more than a few rappers have gone along with it. This is a conversation about symbolism, masculinity, memory, and resistance.The video of this episode is available, the transcript is below. Because of its length, some podcast apps and email programs may truncate it. Access the episode page to get the full text.Theory of Change and Flux are listener supported. We need your help to keep going. Please subscribe to stay in touch!Related Content—A flashback look at how Donald Trump reached out to hip-hop stars to push his 2024 message —Nicki Minaj, Snoop Dogg, and toxic gravitation: How reactionaries bond over mutual narcissism 🔒—Why the decline of the black church is helping Republicans reach new voters—Doja Cat and the lies we tell ourselves about sex and race—Many Black Americans don’t like Democrats, but they loathe Republicans even more, which disdain will prove stronger?Audio Chapters00:00 — Introduction05:53 — Tupac’s continued global resonance09:14 — The origins of hip-hop and its commercialization11:35 — Tupac’s legacy of contradictions18:41 — The Black Panthers’ influence on Tupac’s mother23:50 — Masculinity and gender within hip-hop29:06 — Gender and sexuality in the Black Panther Party35:56 — Obama and Trump in rap39:12 — Former Panthers still have hope for the future despite Trump41:31 — Trump’s 2024 campaign reached out heavily to hip-hop artists46:22 — ‘Coolness’ as a non-political voter persuasion method50:22 — How Van Nguyen brought oral history into his book58:19 — Eazy-E, another political West Coast emcee 01:01:55 — The meanings of ‘thug life’Audio TranscriptThe following is a machine-generated transcript of the audio that has not been proofed. It is provided for convenience purposes only.MATTHEW SHEFFIELD: And joining me now is Dean Van Nguyen. Hey, Dean. Welcome to Theory of Change.DEAN VAN NGUYEN: Thank you. Thanks for having me.SHEFFIELD: Yeah. So this book is, it's a really important book, actually, I think especially because it's connecting a lot of ideas that got started during the life of Tupac Shakur, obviously by him, but also by other people.And he's a guy that continues to remain relevant despite having been killed decades ago. And you write in the introduction of the book that you see him as America's last revolutionary figure. Tell us about that.VAN NGUYEN: I think America actually isn't a nation that tends to create these. Figures. It's been a, a stable political, system for quite a while now. So I think when you see where Tupac's icon has resonated mostly across the world, and it tends to be in countries that have histories of colonialism and colonial oppression and anti-colonial uprising such as my own country, which is Ireland and nations that have suffered brutal dictatorships and have had uprisings against that and things of that nature.So he, I think his icon has grown to, to be almost this, almost like avara figure where he. He represents [00:04:00] ideals, like to see his image ignites certain feelings within people or certain ideas within people of, revolution and resistance. And I don't think there's actually too many Americans as you could actually say that about.Yeah, I think if you got, like there was, of the, figures in the book as well who's icon, who's I comparing to a little bit is like Bob Marley. Che Guevara. So, yeah, I think I, I can't really think of anyone who's come since him that really matches that, that that symbol that he's become, side of the us.SHEFFIELD: If we expand outside of the us other non-American figures can you think of people after Tupac generally that are, that widely known and recognized as revolutionary icons?I think he's certainly, I think, the single most recognizable icon that hip hop produced. I think maybe the other one might be Eminem, but I'm not sure that when people, recognize who m Andm is when they see him, but he, doesn't ignite the same se a set of principles that like, that Tupac does.VAN NGUYEN: S so, yeah, and I think that he's probably even eclipsed, say, Panther forebears certainly in terms of his ability to be recognized just from pictures of 'em and things like that. Like he's, I think he's more famous than Huey Newton, Bobby Seal and Eldridge Cleaver, and people like that.yeah, I, it's hard to, it's hard to think of o other, even his contemporaries really, who match him in that regard.SHEFFIELD: Yeah, I think that's right. And it's, there's a lot of reasons for that. one of them obviously is cultural fragmentation. I think that's a huge part in that. But it's also, as you say, that his music is about telling stories in a way that is. A lot more authentic compared to especially the people who came after him.Tupac's continued global resonanceSHEFFIELD: your connection as you mentioned earlier, that you're from Ireland and you had a particular interest in [00:06:00] Tupac as a kid growing up. tell us about that.VAN NGUYEN: Yeah, so I, I from a school system where I think is probably stereotypical what you might expect, a Catholics, the Catholic, Irish school system to be as in like school uniforms. I went to an all boys school. Most of the schools, I think in Ireland at the time, probably still now, I'm not sure were, single sex and.it was just, it was a very drab existence with no really extracurricular activities to speak of. So I think for us that we found and to be a, an escape or, certainly something to be interested in. For some, and for some of us gangster rap was, popular. There was another set of kids, like Kurt Cobain was the guy for them.And like for us, I think probably above everyone else it was, Tupac. He had died by the time I got interested interested in him already. But I think that even added to the mystique around him. and yeah. And I think that there's, but you, like even, I, was just talking to last weekend actually, my, I had a friend over who's from New York and is partner for the first time.And she had just been down in, I'm from Dublin and she had just been in Galway, which is another town that's on the other side of the country, but she was saying she'd seen a mural of Tupac there. and yeah, in the, book a little bit, I mentioned some of the murals that have popped up about him and there's just, there is something in the Irish psyche that seems to, like him.I, had to take out some instances in the book I've just seen anecdotally that kind of shows Irish people's affinity for him. And I think again, it just speaks to that he resonates in countries with a particular history. and I, say I go into some of those, the other nations and places like Sierra Leone and the Solomon Islands in the book as well.So, yeah, I think he was just, that was, he was just the guy for us. And in terms of probably the rapper, we most particularly, certainly some people anyway, most particularly [00:08:00] gravitate towards and certainly who, could like evoke a real sort of sense of. loyalty and, interest in maybe more so than guys like Nas and Wu-Tang Klan.We also all listen to. But yeah, tu, Tupac just seems to, stand above all the rest.SHEFFIELD: yeah, and I, think there's it, the, obviously the fact that he, died so young and so suddenly, that obviously it, put him to a higher status. But on the other hand, there were a lot of, guys who died young and didn't get anywhere near that iconic status.So it's worth thinking about him. and also the other thing about Tupac, I think that makes him stand out is that because he was there, in in the beginning of the genre, and then never. a chance to sell it. who knows whether he would've or not. It's hard to say, right? But, he didn't, and, but he was able to preserve that original ethos hip hop and rap. And so talk, talk, talk about that though. Like how rap originally was as a medium.The origins of hiphop and its commercializationVAN NGUYEN: in, in, in the book, I, had, if I saw it as there being an opportunity to do a tangential narrative on how hip hop came from radical origins like I, I go into Tupac's Black Panther parentage and his, heritage and, hip hop was born in New York on the same streets where the Panthers, hop the newspapers and had offices and it was.Just it was just slightly, just, a couple of years after their, the peak of their influence in New York. But it's, I think that it was still, it's from, it's like it's from the same streets. It's from the, conditions in which the Panthers sought [00:10:00] to, recruit and, sought to, provide relief for, in terms of the poverty that a lot of the people who lived in those areas were experiencing.oh, it hip hop was a, was it was a youth movement, really no commercial interests, at all. And I think you see as, it grows, it's the commercialization of it becomes obviously incredibly intense. And I think when you think about like original hip hop, it, came, there was various, sections to, or segments to where you had, break dancing, graffiti.These are called like the parts of the five elements that they call, they say of hip hop. But the only one I think the capitalism finds any great use for is rap music. So it becomes the dominating strand, which is why kind of rap and hip hop become, synonyms of each other really.yeah, that's, I wanted to tell that story and I think with Tupac, he, he's, he exists within obviously the commercialization of it. he was a massive selling, he was like a massive selling artist in his own lifetime. But I think in, in, it's almost in his aftermath that some, of his contemporaries, have become among the richest people in the US and they've created this billionaire class of, rap artists.There was almost this, race to see who could become hip hop's first official billionaire for a while. so yeah, as you say, it's, I. It would've been interesting to know how he would've, how he would've seen that.Tupac's legacy of contradictionsVAN NGUYEN: I, I, I tend to believe that be he would've held onto to his, Panther principles in terms of the Panthers were a, Marxist Leninist movement.he held onto a lot of those socialist principles in life, which he, spoke about in his interviews and in his songs. But, yeah, you never really know what the, indignity of aging will do to his people. But I do tend to, [00:12:00] I rather, when I consider how he would've aged, I prefer to look at his, the Panthers of his parents generation who, who never really strayed from their original principles rather than maybe some of his own contemporaries who became just, highly interested in, in, in the entertainment industry and how, kinda high, how much wealth they could accumulate from that.SHEFFIELD: Yeah. and, they didn't have a, an ideologyVAN NGUYEN: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.SHEFFIELD: any sort, of political education on their own. it, that, that tension between capitalism the, the allure and opportunity of capitalism for people who were creating this new musical genre, it was immense.the gravitational force of that was huge. But yet at the same time they, came from an environment in which there was really no way out for a lot of black Americans who were, they were, they went to these terrible schools. the, governments wouldn't spend more money on them, or if they did, they wouldn't provide resources out of school.So kids were basically just stranded there in a lot of different ways. and it was an environment in which sports and, hip hop was the only way out, which is, and, a lot of times people who are, right wing racist will look at that and they'll mock it, but they don't understand that th that, that, that was the only way out like that was, if you don't have a, an education, how are you going to pull yourself up by your bootstraps?And like that contradiction, it was something that. The Tupac, I think, much more than a lot of other rappers really did explore that a lot in, part because of his own family [00:14:00] ideology that he was brought up with.VAN NGUYEN: Yeah. And you mentioned there, there, is these, this lasting joke. I think Dave Chappelle was one of the people who made it about, oh. Music and as you say, sports being the only, the only roots out of poverty and those jokes are, think are still made just because they seem so long lasting.And I think when I talk about the, how, hip hop becomes consumed by, capitalism. One thing I say about it is it's more so than nearly any other art form. It does capture as well the, crush of capitalism. it, it gives, I. It's probably the clear, it's consistently given the clearest dispatches of what it is to, exist in the, at the bottom of the capitalist system.And, and to be at the, say, the bottom of the sharp end of it. But I, two, I think one is, one thing is that most wrappers rappers be when they, when, trying to solve, trying to achieve upward mobility through capitalism, they, that it become, that's a core theme of rap music.And very few, certainly in the mainstream have ever put forward socialist ideas within their music or, esp like socialist principles or a socialist perspective to say that the system isn't, is set up. That it's always going to have this kind of class at the bottom who are, struggling.there are some like rap rappers like Paris and, a no name, but I think of the one, obviously the, one to every esp any sort of sost principles in his music and in his interviews that became clearly the most famous was Tupac. And I think that he, obviously, he inherited those from his mother. And, and yeah, and like he, unlike, most, he was, very, I mean he, hated wealth inequality as one of the real that people always talk about the duality of Tupac or the contradictions of his, music and how he [00:16:00] could, put forward one set of ideas and then maybe contradict himself within, a couple of tracks later.But if you look at. That is hatred. He had a wealth inequality. it's one of the real consistencies of his life. And he always maintained that it wasn't right for the rich to have so much and the poor, to have so little. yeah, and I'd say it would've been, it would've been interesting to that he hopefully would've, he would've kept those had he had, he died.But I tend to believe he, he would, like even he was planning his own company around the time of his death, but within that he had like plans for like, school programs. And I think he wanted to have a kinda, an egalitarian slant to it. so yeah, was, very in tuned with that, side of America,…
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