Equiosity

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Episode 352 Dominique Is Back! Part 1 Treat Horses Like Zoo Animals Nov 20, 2025

Show notes

Dominique is back! Dominique took some time off over the summer. Now she is back and full of enthusiasm for the recent Equiosity conversations she’s been listening to. In this episode we revisit the conversation we had with Rick Hester, Amy Schilz and Lucy Butler. Rick is the Curator of Behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado. Amy is in charge of the giraffe at the zoo. Lucy Butler and her husband own the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. With Dominique we revisit the four operant freedoms, and we consider the parallels between the way zoo animals are managed past and present and the way we keep horses. There is so much we can learn from modern zoo keepers. As Dominique says at the start of the conversation, she’s been looking through some of the traditional horse training books she owns and they just seem so out of date especially when she compares them to the work that Rick and Amy talk about. Her takeaways from their interview make for a lively conversation.

Episode 351 Dr Claire St Peter & Dr Carol Pilgrim Pt 3 - Equine Simulators and Good Science Matters Nov 13, 2025

Show notes

This is part three of our conversation with Dr Claire St Peter from the University of West Virginia where she is currently the Chair of the Department of Psychology, and Dr Carol Pilgrim, a Professor Emerit in the Psychology Department at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Dr Pilgrim has received many honors throughout her career including the North Carolina Board of Governors Teaching Excellence Award, the Faculty Scholarship Award, the Chancellor’s Teaching Excellence Award, the ABAI Student Committee Outstanding Mentor Award in 2006, and the ABAI Distinguished Service to Behavior Analysis award in 2017. Her research contributions include both basic and applied behavior analysis, with an emphasis in human operant behavior and relational stimulus control. Our subject is for this podcast is stimulus control. In Part 1 Dr. Pilgrim started us out with definitions and an introduction to the subject. She shared the story of Clever Hans, a horse who was said to be able to do complicated math problems. What he really could do was read the very subtle cues his handler and others were giving that told him when he had reached the right answer. In part two we took a deeper into the subject of stimulus control, including a discussion of relational stimulus control. That brought us to the use of models. Dr Pilgrim described the use of models to teach women to do their own breast cancer exams to detect any abnormalities in the very earliest stages. In Part Three we continue with the discussion of simulators as it relates to training riders. I share a story about a riding simulator I got to experience during a visit to the UK. We also talk about why science matters as we describe the use of A/B reversals to develop riding and handling skills.

Episode 350 Dr. Claire St Peter & Dr. Carol Pilgrim Part 2 Stimulius Control Nov 06, 2025

Show notes

This is part two of our conversation with Dr Claire St Peter from the University of West Virginia where she is currently the Chair of the Department of Psychology, and Dr Carol Pilgrim, a Professor Emerit in the Psychology Department at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Dr Pilgrim has received many honors throughout her career including the North Carolina Board of Governors Teaching Excellence Award, the Faculty Scholarship Award, the Chancellor’s Teaching Excellence Award, the ABAI Student Committee Outstanding Mentor Award in 2006, and the ABAI Distinguished Service to Behavior Analysis award in 2017. Her research contributions include both basic and applied behavior analysis, with an emphasis in human operant behavior and relational stimulus control. Our subject is for this podcast is stimulus control. In Part 1 Dr. Pilgrim started us out with definitions and an introduction to the subject. She shared the story of Clever Hans, a horse who was said to be able to do complicated math problems. What he really could do was read the very subtle cues his handler and others were giving that told him when he had reached the right answer. In part two we take a deeper into the subject of stimulus control, including a discussion of relational stimulus control.

Episode 349 Dr Claire St Peter & Dr Carol Pilgrim Pt 1 - Stimulus Control Oct 30, 2025

Show notes

We’ve covered a lot of topics with behavior analysts. This week we’re talking with Dr. Carol Pilgrim and Dr. Claire St Peter about stimulus control. Dr Claire St Peter is from the University of West Virginia, where she is currently the Chair of the Department of Psychology. Claire has been on this podcast many times. Claire is not only a behavior analyst she is also a horse person. When I say that everything is connected to everything else, Claire has been helping us to see the connection between behavior analysis and horse training. We wrote an article together on loopy training which was published in 2022 in the Journal of Experimental Analysis of Behavior. The title was: Connecting animal trainers and behavior analysts through loopy training. Claire has gone on connecting animal trainers and behaviors analysts via this podcast. This past spring I received a SABA award for all the equiosity episodes Dominique and I have done on topics directly related to behavior analysis. When Claire and I met up after the award ceremony, we were chatting about topics that would be interesting to cover. Claire suggested we reach out to Dr Carol Pilgrim for a deep dive into stimulus control. Dr Carol Pilgrim is a Professor Emerit in the Psychology Department at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Dr Pilgrim has received many honors throughout her career including the North Carolina Board of Governors Teaching Excellence Award, the Faculty Scholarship Award, the Chancellor’s Teaching Excellence Award, the ABAI Student Committee Outstanding Mentor Award in 2006, and the ABAI Distinguished Service to Behavior Analysis award in 2017. Her research contributions include both basic and applied behavior analysis, with an emphasis in human operant behavior and relational stimulus control. In Part 1 of this podcast we begin the conversation with basic definitions and concepts related to stimulus control.

Episode 348 Rick Hester, Amy Schilz & Lucy Butler Pt 3 - Enrichment and Public Education at the Zoo Oct 23, 2025

Show notes

For the episode we’re continuing our conversation with Rick Hester, Amy Shilze and Lucy Butler. Rick is the Curator of Behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado. He oversees all the zoo's behavioral programming. His work includes the zoo's animal training for husbandry, medical, and public show behaviors, enrichment, developing programs to improve problem behavior situations, the zoo's formal animal welfare assessments, and exhibit design for behavior goals. We’re also joined by Amy Schilze, who has the dream job of working with the Cheyenne Mountain zoo’s giraffe. Amy is the Senior Animal Behaviorist for Cheyenne Mountain Zoo's International Center for the Care and Conservation of Giraffe, where she runs giraffe workshops and conferences, both stateside and internationally. Both Rick and Amy also partner with Dr. Susan Friedman and her Behavior Works consulting team so you’ll hear a lot of references to Susan throughout this conversation. In addition to Rick and Amy, I invited Lucy Butler to join us. Lucy and her husband run the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. I knew she would have a lot of questions for Rick and Amy. When you take in animals who are the victims of abuse, there’s a lot to be learned from the work that goes on in zoos to reduce the stress of handling and also to improve the overall quality of life for the animals under their care. In this episode Rick and Amy talk about the educational programs which are woven into the experience Guests have as they tour the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo. There are twenty-three shows for the public every day. In these shows the animals are the star. It is about showing what they can do, what their natural behaviors are - all while protecting the dignity of the animals. The shows at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo show animals controlling their reinforcers and using their bodies in ways that are natural to them. Trainers interpret both what their life in the zoo looks like, what their life in the wild environment looks like, and how capable they are of learning. They are trying to create connections between the public and the animals at the zoo in a way that elevates the animal. For Lucy this part of the conversation was especially relevant because the public is invited in to tour the River Haven Animal Sanctuary that she and her husband run. She was getting many great ideas for how they can make this experience better both for their guests and their resident animals. But even if you don’t give tours, there’s much here that can be used to enrich your horse’s life. We begin the episode with a discussion of techniques used to introduce new animals into an existing social group.

Episode 347 Rick Hester, Amy Schilz, & Lucy Butler Pt 2 - Enrichment & Freeing Up The Operant Oct 16, 2025

Show notes

Episode 346 Rick Hester, Amy Schilz, and Lucy Butler - A Day At The Zoo Pt 1 Oct 09, 2025

Show notes

For the episode we’re heading to the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo for a conversation with Rick Hester, Amy Schilz and Lucy Butler. Rick is the Curator of Behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado. He oversees all the zoo's behavioral programming. His work includes the zoo's animal training for husbandry, medical, and public show behaviors, enrichment, developing programs to improve problem behavior situations, the zoo's formal animal welfare assessments, and exhibit design for behavior goals. We’re also joined by Amy Schilz who has the dream job of working with the Cheyanne Mountain zoo’s giraffe. Amy is the Senior Animal Behaviorist for Cheyenne Mountain Zoo's International Center for the Care and Conservation of Giraffe, where she runs giraffe workshops and conferences, both stateside and internationally. Both Rick and Amy also partner with Dr. Susan Friedman and her Behavior Works consulting team so you’ll hear a lot of references to Susan throughout this conversation. In addition to Rick and Amy, I invited Lucy Butler to join us. Lucy and her husband run the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. I knew she would have a lot of questions for Rick and Amy. When you take in animals who are the victims of abuse, there’s a lot to be learned from the work that goes on in zoos to reduce the stress of handling and also to improve the overall quality of life for the animals under their care. In this episode Rick and Amy talk about fine-tuning what a “no response” looks like and what handlers should do when they see the first signs of an animal saying “no”. As they fine tuned their understanding of “no” responses, they were actually describing an operationalized behavior that is “yes”. What does it look like for an animal to say “yes” Assent is a behavior the learner performs and continues to perform that lets us know we can continue. When they stop performing that behavior, assent is withdrawn, so we have to withdraw. This is the process that the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo trainers follow. Relief is readily available to the animal learners. Across species in a system where relief is abundantly available and there are strong reinforcers at a high rate for opting in, most animals opt in more and opt out less. After Rick and Amy describe the training that they are doing at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo, we switch the focus to horse training. Letting horses opt out runs counter to traditional horse training methods. But certainly we know that horses also opt in more when they have the option of saying “no”. This episode also includes an announcement for my new book: “Never Get A Wizard Mad At You”: Book One in the Upstairs Armadillo Series.

Episode 345 Michaela Hempen and Lucy Butler - Anja Beran's Workshop Pt 3 Oct 02, 2025

Show notes

This is part 3 of a conversation with Michaela Hempen and Lucy Butler about their visit in August to attend Anja Beran’s 12th International Workshop held at her stable in Bavaria. Both Michaela and Lucy have been guests on the podcast many times before. Michaela is well known for the research project she did on the operant control of cribbing. With her own horses she has been using my work to help make Anja’s beautiful riding more accessible. This year Michaela helped interpret Anja’s work for a group of clicker trainers who attended the workshop. Lucy was one of the people in that group. In part 1 Lucy shared her first impressions of Anja’s work. She described the facility and some of the horses she watched. Many of these horses are at the foundation because Anja was their last chance. They were on their way to slaughter. These were young horses who had been crippled by inappropriate training. Anja’s work not only shows that good riding doesn’t have to harm horses. It can heal them. In Part 2 Michaela and Lucy help make the connections between what I teach and Anja’s training. One of the major links is the ever present focus on balance. Now in Part 3 we look in more detail at lateral movements and ways of exploring them that can help you understand how to use them in training to help your horse maintain healthy movement.

Episode 344 Michaela Hempen & Lucy Butler - Anja Beran's Workshop Part 2 Sep 25, 2025

Show notes

This is part 2 of a conversation with Michaela Hempen and Lucy Butler about their visit in August to attend Anja Beran’s 12th International Workshop held at her stable in Bavaria. Both Michaela and Lucy have been guests on the podcast many times before. Michaela is well known for the research project she did on the operant control of cribbing. With her own horses she has been using my work to help make Anja’s beautiful riding more accessible. This year Michaela helped interpret Anja’s work for a group of clicker trainers who attended the workshop. Lucy was one of the people in that group. In part 1 Lucy shared her first impressions of Anja’s work. She described the facility and some of the horses she watched. Many of these horses are at the foundation because Anja was their last chance. They were on their way to slaughter. These were young horses who had been crippled by inappropriate training. Anja’s work not only shows that good riding doesn’t have to harm horses. It can heal them. In this episode Michaela and Lucy help make the connections between what I teach and Anja’s training. One of the major links is the ever present focus on balance.

Episode 343 Michaela Hempen & Lucy Butler - Anja Beran's Annual Workshop Pt 1 Sep 18, 2025

Show notes

This is part 1 of a conversation with Michaela Hempen and Lucy Butler about their visit in August to attend Anja Beran’s 12th International Workshop held at her stable in Bavaria. Both Michaela and Lucy have been guests on the podcast many times before. Michaela is well known for the research project she did on the operant control of cribbing. With her own horses she has been using my work to help make Anja’s beautiful riding more accessible. This year Michaela helped interpret Anja’s work for a group of clicker trainers who attended the workshop. Lucy was one of the people in that group. I asked Lucy about her first impressions of Anja’s work. She described the facility and some of the horses she watched. Many of these horses are with Anja because she was their last chance. They were on their way to slaughter. These were young horses who had been crippled by inappropriate training. Anja’s work not only shows that good riding doesn’t have to harm horses. It can heal them.

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