Equiosity

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Episode 362 Dr Susan Friedman Part 3 Influence Feb 11, 2026

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This is Part 3 of our conversation with Dr Susan Friedman. Dr Friedman is one of our favorite guests on this podcast. She’s a professor emeritus in the psychology department at Utah State University. She’s been a long-time member of the Clicker Expo Faculty and she runs the very popular on-line course Behavior Works: Learning and Living with Animals. In Part 1 Susan shared with us her most recent project - the Behavior Works Zoo School which you can read about at BWZS.org. We talked about why teams matter. In Part 2 the conversation centered around how to develop great working teams. We talked about what it means to be a leader. How do you maintain control and support a creative, generative team? Susan discussed ways to maintain healthy teams. Part 3 is about influence. Susan reminds us that we have evolved to be influenced by our environment. To build an effective team you need to get the explanation for a person’s behavior out of the inside of the person and into the environment where it belongs. To use Susan’s example: instead of talking about what a jerk someone is, we should be looking at how the environment selected for that jerky behavior and how the team can change the environment to change that jerky behavior. To build a good team you need to commit to the science of behavior.

Episode 361 Dr. Susan Friedman Pt 2 Developing Healthy Productive Happy Teams Feb 05, 2026

Show notes

This is Part 2 of our conversation with Dr Susan Friedman. Dr Friedman is one of our favorite guests on this podcast. She’s a professor emeritus in the psychology department at Utah State University. She’s been a long-time member of the Clicker Expo Faculty and she runs the very popular on-line course Behavior Works: Learning and Living with Animals. In Part 1 Susan shared with us her most recent project - the Behavior Works Zoo School which you can read about at BWZS.org. We talked about why teams matter. In Part 2 the conversation centers around how to develop great working teams. We talk about what it means to be a leader. How do you maintain control and support a creative, generative team? Susan talks about the different reinforcers people chase. There are individuals who want to be the empire builders. You can often recognize them by how often they use the word “I” in their presentations. And there are people who enjoy being part of a team, who enjoy collaborating and being influenced by others. In teams attribution is still important. When others take credit for your ideas, there’s a sting that can fester into resentment. Susan discusses ways to maintain healthy teams.

Episode 360 Dr Susan Friedman Pt 1 Zoo School Jan 29, 2026

Show notes

This is Part 1 of a five part conversation with Dr Susan Friedman. Dr Friedman is one of our favorite guests on this podcast. She’s a professor emeritus in the psychology department at Utah State University. She’s been a long-time member of the Clicker Expo Faculty and she runs the very popular on-line course Behavior Works: Learning and Living with Animals. In part 1 Susan shares with us her most recent project - the Behavior Works Zoo School which you can read about at BWZS.org. This four part conversation grew out of a wonderful afternoon’s conversation that I had with Susan in the Fall of 2025. I had just finished editing the podcast interview that Dominique and I did with Rick Hester and Amy Schilz from the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo. I was telling Susan how much I had enjoyed the conversation and how impressed I was with both Rick and Amy. They are both part of Susan’s Behavior Works team. Susan’s mentoring was very much in evidence, and that prompted a great discussion about teams and team building. I knew our conversation had to be a podcast. The timing for recording this conversation could not have been more perfect. Susan and her Behavior Works Team has just launched their newest project - Zoo School. So in this episode in addition to talking about why teams matter, Susan introduces us to the Behavior Works Zoo School.

Episode 359 Dr. Stephanie Jone, Sofia Abuin, Lucy Butler Pt 5 We Don't Have To Fear Behavior Jan 22, 2026

Show notes

This is Part 5 of a conversation with Lucy Butler of River Haven Animal Sanctuary, and Dr Stephanie Jones and her grad student, Sofia Abuin. In Part 1 we talked about the common links between teaching people and working with animals. We talked about coercion, control, and most importantly about empathy. In part 2 Stephanie described a pilot study she and her colleagues set up at the River Haven Animal Sanctuary. Shaping can be incredibly challenging to teach well. Often people refer to the science and the art of training. What Stephanie and her colleague Michael Yencha wanted to investigate is what makes up the “art” part of training? Is there a way to tease this apart so it becomes less mystery and more approachable through science? In Part 3 Stephanie reminded us that the goal of this research project was to help new trainers shape well. That was the reason for the latency criterion. They were using it to judge when to shift criteria. They weren’t looking at any other aspects of shaping. They weren’t looking at the details of the reinforcement strategy or the set up of the environment. They weren’t saying those elements aren’t important, but they wanted to focus on this one component and give it a good rule. The question was how do you get robust interventions that aren’t influenced by implementer errors? Even in art there is technique. If you give people this rule, does that mean learners will be better off because shapers are able to minimize exposure to extinction without even needing to know what it means to minimize exposure to extinction? Can new trainers shape well even when they are lacking experience and a broad theoretical background? We ended Part 3 at a point where Stephanie and Sofia had to leave, but we continued the conversation with Lucy Butler. In Part 4 we talked about the latency rule Stephanie and her colleagues used in the study with the goats and contrasted that with Loopy Training. Whether we’re talking about science or art, there are principles that guide us towards better results. Lucy suggested that instead of trying to design a study that teases apart the elements that lead to better shaping results, it might be more useful to watch a master teacher train to see what they do. In Part 5 we continue to explore the what we can learn from watching effective trainers. When there are constraints on the training, what becomes really important? The constraints may be the time you have to train, or the environment you have to work in, how do you prioritize what to work on? The discussion takes us to this great statement from Lucy Butler: When we understand how behavior is selected and reinforced, we understand that we don’t have to fear behavior. There’s going to be some way we can design and train our way to something better. It’s such an optimistic and hopeful way of being with our animals, and what it turns into is confidence. Join us as we weave our way to this very hopeful statement.

Episode 358 Dr. Stephanie Jone, Sofia Abuin, Lucy Butler Pt 4 What Skilled Trainers Have in Common Jan 15, 2026

Show notes

This is Part 4 of a conversation with Lucy Butler of River Haven Animal Sanctuary, and Dr Stephanie Jones and her grad student, Sofia Abuin In Part 1 we talked about the common links between teaching people and working with animals. We talked about coercion, control, and most importantly about empathy. In part 2 Stephanie described a pilot study she and her colleagues set up at the River Haven Animal Sanctuary. Shaping can be incredibly challenging to teach well. Often people refer to the science and the art of training. What Stephanie and her colleague Michael Yencha wanted to investigate is what makes up the “art” part of training? Is there a way to tease this apart so it becomes less mystery and more approachable through science? In Part 3 Stephanie reminded us that the goal of this research project was to help new trainers shape well. That was the reason for the latency criterion. They were using it to judge when to shift criteria. They weren’t looking at any other aspects of shaping. They weren’t looking at the details of the reinforcement strategy or the set up of the environment. They weren’t saying those elements aren’t important, but they wanted to focus on this one component and give it a good rule. The question was how do you get robust interventions that aren’t influenced by implementer errors? Even in art there is technique. If you give people this rule, does that mean learners will be better off because shapers are able to minimize exposure to extinction without even needing to know what it means to minimize exposure to extinction? Can new trainers shape well even when they are lacking experience and a broad theoretical background? We ended Part 3 at a point where Stephanie and Sofia had to leave, but we continued the conversation with Lucy Butler. In this episode we talk about the latency rule Stephanie and her colleagues used in the study with the goats and contrasted that with Loopy Training. Whether we’re talking about science or art, there are principles that guide us towards better results. Lucy suggested that instead of trying to design a study that teases apart the elements that lead to better shaping results, it might be more useful to watch a master teacher train to see what they do. Dominique shared a quote from Learning and Behavior by Paul Chance The rate at which training proceeds depends upon the skill of the trainer So yes, it does make sense to look at skilled trainers. We had some fun talking about the backstage pass presentation at the up-coming March Clicker Expo. For some unknown reason I agreed to participate. Instead of working with a horse, I’ll be training a dog. It should be interesting to say the least. It is certainly interesting to think about the different presenters at the clicker Expo. When we watch, for example, Ken Ramirez train or Michelle Pouliot, or Kay Laurence, we see very different training styles. But what are the commonalities?

Episode 357 Dr. Stephanie Jones, Sofia Abuin and Lucy Butler Pt 3 - Rules for Changing Criteria Jan 07, 2026

Show notes

This is Part 3 of a conversation with Lucy Butler of River Haven Animal Sanctuary, and Dr Stephanie Jones and her grad student, Sofia Abuin Dr. Jones graduated with her PhD in Behavior Analysis from West Virginia University in 2021. Her primary research focuses on effects of implementer errors that occur during well-established behavioral treatments. To meet this aim, she conducts laboratory and applied research with the aim of supporting development of robust behavioral interventions. She started teaching and conducting research at Salve Regina University in 2021 and is the principal investigator for the Translational Research and Applied Intervention Lab. IN PART 1 we talked about the common links between teaching people and working with animals. We talked about coercion, control, and most importantly about empathy. In part 2 Stephanie described a pilot study she and her colleagues set up at the River Haven Animal Sanctuary. Shaping can be incredibly challenging to teach well. Often people refer to the science and the art of training. What Stephanie and her colleague Michael Yencha wanted to investigate is what makes up the “art” part of training? Is there a way to tease this apart so it becomes less mystery and more approachable through science? Stephanie began by describing the shaping procedures they used with the goats at River Haven. In one context the criteria was changed when the goat had successfully met the current criterion three times in a row. In the second context a latency component was added. The goat had to meet the criterion within a certain time period which was determined by the goat’s own previous performance. I described the metaphor of shaping from the wide versus the narrow end of the funnel and what it means to shape using narrow end of the funnel thinking. In Part 3 Stephanie reminded us that the goal of this research was to help new trainers shape well. That was the reason for the latency criterion. They were using it to judge when to shift criteria. They weren’t looking at any other aspects of shaping. They weren’t looking at the details of the reinforcement strategy or the set up of the environment. They weren’t saying those elements aren’t important, but they wanted to focus on this one component and give it a good rule. The question was how do you get robust interventions that aren’t influenced by implementor errors? Even in art there is technique. If you give people this rule, does that mean learners will be better off because shapers are able to minimize exposure to extinction without even needing to know what it means to minimize exposure to extinction? Can new trainers shape well even when they are lacking experience and a broad theoretical background?

Episode 356 Dr. Stephanie Jones, Sofia Abuin, and Lucy Butler Part 2 Dec 31, 2025

Show notes

Finding Science in the Art of Training This is Part 2 of a conversation with Lucy Butler of River Haven Animal Sanctuary, and Dr Stephanie Jones and her grad student, Sofia Abuin Dr. Jones graduated with her PhD in Behavior Analysis from West Virginia University in 2021. Her primary research focuses on effects of implementer errors that occur during well-established behavioral treatments. To meet this aim, she conducts laboratory and applied research with the aim of supporting development of robust behavioral interventions. She started teaching and conducting research at Salve Regina University in 2021 and is the principal investigator for the Translational Research and Applied Intervention Lab. Through her lab, she supports research engagement of students at the undergraduate, master’s, and doctoral training levels. She publishes in and reviews for several peer-reviewed behavior-analytic journals, such as the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis and Education and Treatment of Children. Good training is very much emphasizes the importance of taking the time to build a relationship with the individuals you’re interacting with. We modeled that in Part One. Dominique and I were meeting Stephanie and Sophia for the first time in this recording. So I instead of jumping straight in to the study Stephanie and her collegues conducted at River Haven, in Part One we began by talking about control, and even more about empathy. In this episode Stephanie describes a pilot study she and her collegues from Salve Regina University set up at the River Haven Animal Sanctuary. Shaping can be incredibly challenging to teach well. Often people refer to the science and the art of training. What Stephanie and her colleague Michael Yencha wanted to investigate is what makes up the “art” part of training? Is there a way to tease this apart so it becomes less mystery and more approachable through science?

Episode 355 Dr Stephanie Jones, Sofia Abuin, and Lucy Butler Pt 1 Coercion, Control and Empathy Dec 23, 2025

Show notes

This is Part One of a conversation with Lucy Butler of River Haven Animal Sanctuary, Dr Stephanie Jones and her grad student, Sofia Abuin Dr. Jones is new to Equiosity. She graduated with her PhD in Behavior Analysis from West Virginia University in 2021. Her primary research focuses on effects of implementer errors that occur during well-established behavioral treatments. To meet this aim, she conducts laboratory and applied research with the aim of supporting development of robust behavioral interventions. She started teaching and conducting research at Salve Regina University in 2021 and is the principal investigator for the Translational Research and Applied Intervention Lab. Through her lab, she supports research engagement of students at the undergraduate, master’s, and doctoral training levels. She publishes in and reviews for several peer-reviewed behavior-analytic journals, such as the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis and Education and Treatment of Children. Good training is very much emphasizes the importance of taking the time to build a relationship with the individuals you’re interacting with. We modeled that in Part One. Dominique and I were meeting Stephanie and Sophia for the first time in this recording. So instead of jumping straight in to the study Stephanie and her collegues conducted at River Haven, we began by talking about coercion, control, and even more about empathy.

Episode 354 Dominique is Back! Part 3 - Should Bits Be Used? Dec 11, 2025

Show notes

Dominique is back! Dominique took some time off over the summer. Now she is back and full of enthusiasm for the recent Equiosity conversations she’s been listening to. In Part 1 we talked about the recent podcast with Rick Hester, Amy Shilz, from the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo and Lucy Butler from the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. We talked about the enrichment programs at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo and the four operant freedoms. In Part 2 we shared the story of Oliver, a pony who is now living at Lucy’s River Haven Animal Sanctuary. Prior to his rescue, he spent seven years locked in a stall with zero turnout. We shared a recent experience Lucy had with her vet. The visit highlighted how resilient animals can be. We also talked about bits and bridling. In Part 3 we continue with discussion of bits as Dominique returns us to the question of whether or not to use bits at all. My answer comes straight from the “horse’s mouth”, no pun intended. We look at what horses tell us. In particular we consider the instructions so many first time riders are given - “kick your pony to make him go, pull back on the reins to make him stop”. That advice has led to the large collection of bits that every tack store has on display. Many of those bits look more like medieval torture devices than anything that belongs in a horse’s mouth. The question is not should bits be used, but what should we really be teaching those first time riders and novice horses?

Episode 353 Dominique is Back! Pt 2 Training Resilient Animals Dec 03, 2025

Show notes

Dominique is back! Dominique took some time off over the summer. Now she is back and full of enthusiasm for the recent equiosity conversations she’s been listening to. In Part 1 we talked about the recent podcast with Rick Hester, Amy Shilz, from the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo and Lucy Butler from the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. We talked about the enrichment programs at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo and the four operant freedoms. In Part 2 we shared the story of Oliver, a pony who is now living at Lucy’s River Haven Animal Sanctuary. Prior to his rescue, he spent seven years locked in a stall with zero turnout. We shared a recent experience Lucy had with her vet. The visit highlighted how resilient animals can be. We also talked about bits and bridling.

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