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    Government

    Democracy Paradox

    Is it possible for a democracy to govern undemocratically? Can the people elect an undemocratic leader? Is it possible for democracy to bring about authoritarianism? And if so, what does this say about democracy? ​​My name is Justin Kempf. Every week I talk to the brightest minds on subjects like international relations, political theory, and history to explore democracy from every conceivable angle. Topics like civil resistance, authoritarian successor parties, and the autocratic middle class challenge our ideas about democracy. Join me as we unravel new topics every week.

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    Copyright: © 2026 Democracy Paradox

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    Latest Episodes:
    Derek W. Black Says Public Education Represents the Idea of America... Not its Reality May 04, 2021
    Show notes

    I find it hard to believe, without a lot more justification than they're offering that somehow that there's this new secret sauce to opportunity and equality and democracy that does not involve public education as the fundamental pillar. So you have people arguing that it's not. They're not saying we want to destroy democracy, but I'm saying, you as reader, you as listeners, need to think about the long-term consequences of shrinking the public education footprint and moving back into a siloed or a fiefdom or a private system that resembles our darkest days.

    Derek W. Black
    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    Key Highlights Include

    • Derek explains the case for a right to education.
    • A brief history of public education in the United States
    • How the NAACP used the language of democracy in their litigation for school desegregation
    • Why vouchers and charter schools threaten public education
    • Finally, the intersection of public education and democracy runs throughout the conversation


    Key Links

    Schoolhouse Burning: Public Education and the Assault on American Democracy by Derek W. Black

    San Antonio Independent School District et. al. v. Rodriguez

    Follow Derek W. Black @DerekWBlack

    Related Content

    Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson on the Plutocratic Populism of the Republican Party

    Carolyn Hendriks, Selen Ercan and John Boswell on Mending Democracy

    More from the Podcast

    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    Swamp Stories
    Email the show at democracyparadoxblog@gmail.com
    Follow me on Twitter @DemParadox
    100 Books on Democracy

    Support the show


    Sheryl WuDunn Paints a Picture of Poverty in America and Offers Hope for Solutions Apr 27, 2021
    Show notes

    That's why all Americans should care. Because the cost of poverty is not just the cost to that person who is in poverty. It's a cost to all of society. We're all paying for people being jailed. We're all paying for extra costs in the legal system, in the police force, in the healthcare system.

    Sheryl WuDunn
    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    Key Highlights Include

    • Stories of Poverty and Inequality in America
    • Challenges in America in Education, Health, and Well-Being
    • Impact of Poverty on Children with an Explanation of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs)
    • Collective Responsibility to Solve Social Problems
    • Rethinking of Social Programs as Investments Rather than Outlays


    Sheryl WuDunn is a pulitzer prize winning reporter, business executive, and the author of Tightrope: Americans Reaching for Hope (along with her husband Nicholas Kristof).
    Key Links

    Tightrope: Americans Reaching for Hope by Sheryl WuDunn and Nicholas Kristof

    Tightrope: Americans Reaching for Hope - PBS Documentary Presented by Show of Force

    Follow Sheryl on Twitter @WuDunn

    Related Content

    Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson on the Plutocratic Populism of the Republican Party

    Zizi Papacharissi Dreams of What Comes After Democracy

    More from the Podcast

    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music
    Email the show at democracyparadoxblog@gmail.com
    Follow me on Twitter @DemParadox
    100 Books on Democracy

    Support the show


    Mike Hoffman on How Religious Identities Influence Support for or Opposition to Democracy Apr 20, 2021
    Show notes

    Doctrine is actually often a lot looser and more subject to interpretation than we tend to assume and the way that the doctrine gets interpreted is often partially a function of group interests themselves. If you have a religious group in a given country that believes it would benefit from democracy, it's pretty likely that that group will find a way to interpret and frame its doctrine in a way that supports democracy.

    - Mike Hoffman
    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    Key Highlights Include

    • Role of Religion in Identity Formation
    • How Communal Prayer Shapes Religious Identity
    • Ways Group Interests Shape Perspectives on Democracy
    • Description of Lebanon's Political System
    • Why Some Groups Oppose Democracy

    Mike Hoffman is a professor of political science at Notre Dame and the author of Faith in Numbers: Religion, Sectarianism, and Democracy.
    Key Links

    Faith in Numbers: Religion, Sectarianism, and Democracyby Michael Hoffman

    Economic Origins of Dictatorship and Democracyby Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson

    Patterns of Democracy by Arend Lijphart

    Related Content

    Elizabeth Nugent on Polarization, Democratization and the Arab Spring

    Bryn Rosenfeld on Middle Class Support for Dictators in Autocratic Regimes

    More from the Podcast

    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    Democracy Works
    Email the show at democracyparadoxblog@gmail.com
    Follow me on Twitter @DemParadox
    100 Books on Democracy

    Support the show


    Shari Davis Elevates Participatory Budgeting Apr 13, 2021
    Show notes

    Participatory budgeting is actually about connecting folks with the skills and resources to navigate and shape government. And so, for me, that is the most optimistic and the most important outcome of any participatory budgeting process.

    Shari Davis
    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    Key Highlights Include

    • A walk through the process of participatory budgeting with an example
    • The history of participatory budgeting around the world
    • An example of participatory budgeting in China
    • The Role of Art in Democracy
    • Next steps for Participatory Budgeting

    Shari Davis leads the Participatory Budget Project as its Executive Director. They have over 15 years working in local government beginning in high school. And not long ago they were honored as an Obama Fellow.
    Key Links

    Participatory Budgeting Project

    Democracy Beyond Elections

    "Why is Democracy Performing so Poorly" by Francis Fukuyama

    Related Content

    Hélène Landemore on Democracy without Elections

    Carolyn Hendriks, Selen Ercan and John Boswell on Mending Democracy

    More from the Podcast

    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    How Do We Fix It?
    Email the show at democracyparadoxblog@gmail.com
    Follow me on Twitter @DemParadox
    100 Books on Democracy

    Support the show


    Chris Bickerton Defines Technopopulism Apr 06, 2021
    Show notes

    That tension between the politics of the whole and the politics of the part, that tension between the politics of generality and the politics of particularity, is really at the heart of party democracy. What we are sort of trying to capture, I suppose, with technopopulism is to think of a form of politics where that tension has simply gone.

    Chris Bickerton
    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    Key Highlights Include
    - Chris describes Technopopulism through an explanation of the Five Star Movement in Italy
    - We discuss how populists and technologists consider expertise
    - How technopopulism is different from classic interest-based politics
    - We discuss ANO and the Pirate Party in the Czech Republic
    - Barak Obama is analyzed in the lens of technopopulism
    - Chris explains how he thinks we can move beyond technopopulism
    Chris Bickerton is a reader of of Modern European Politics at the University of Cambridge. Alongside Carlo Invernizzi Accetti, he is the coauthor of Technopopulism: The New Logic of Democratic Politics. He is also a frequent panelist on Talking Politics.
    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    Let's Find Common Ground
    Key Links

    Technopopulism: The New Logic of Democratic Politicsby Christopher Bickerton and Carlo Invernizzi Accetti

    "Understanding the Illiberal Turn: Democratic Backsliding in the Czech Republic" by Seán Hanley and Milada Anna Vachudova

    Five Star Movement at Wikipedia

    Related Content

    Chad Alan Goldberg on the Wisconsin Idea and the Role of the Public University in a Democracy

    Thomas Carothers and Andrew O'Donohue are Worried About Severe Polarization

    More from the Podcast

    Support the show


    Ross Benes on Nebraska and Rural Conservatism Mar 30, 2021
    Show notes

    The legislature is one of several examples of our history of being independent which is why I think it was such an important story to tell of Nebraska becoming like baptized into Republican orthodoxy. Because seeing that shift. That it wasn't always that way. We founded Arbor day in this state, we settle a lot of refugees per capita, we increased minimum wage, and Medicaid through ballot measures recently. We do stuff like that.
    - Ross Benes
    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    Red states and blue states. Republicans and Democrats. Rural and urban. Polarization. It is a term often heard about American politics. Most states find their politics lean heavily toward one party or the other. And Nebraska is no different. It is a very conservative state so it makes sense for it to elect Republicans.

    But not too long ago Democrats competed for state offices. In fact, Nebraska had at least one Democratic Senator from 1977 until 2012. It’s really only been the last ten years where Democrats could not compete in the state.

    Of course, the Democrats it elected were about as conservative as many Republicans. But Nebraska also has a history of progressive reforms. In fact, it was often rural America who championed many of the progressive ideas in the early twentieth century.

    This realization has caused me to go through a variety of different counterfactuals. Like why are rural Americans conservative and urban Americans liberal? Is there a scenario where this is reversed? I’m not looking to rewrite history. I just want to understand how politics change over time. And maybe where it is going next. Because history shows some of the things we take for granted have not always been that way.

    My guest Ross Benes grew up in Nebraska before moving to New York City. He has the kind of expat perspective that has given so many writers both clarity and insight. His recent book is Rural Rebellion: How Nebraska Became a Republican Stronghold.

    Ross and I, we discuss why Democrats no longer compete in Nebraska. But I don’t want anyone to think Nebraska has to elect Democrats to prove their commitment to democracy. That’s not the point. Nebraska is one of many states with very little genuine competition between parties for statewide office. My concern is effective governance needs a range of perspectives to succeed. And this problem is not unique to Nebraska nor are many liberal states immune.

    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    Our Body Politic


    Key Links

    Rural Rebellion: How Nebraska Became a Republican Stronghold by Ross Benes

    Fighting Liberal by George Norris

    The Politics of Resentment: Rural Consciousness in Wisconsin and the Rise of Scott Walker by Katherine Cramer

    Related Content

    Chad Alan Goldberg on the Wisconsin Idea and the Role of the Public University in a Democracy

    Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson on the Plutocratic Populism of the Republican Party

    Rural Consciousness as Political Identity

    Support the show


    Chad Alan Goldberg on the Wisconsin Idea and the Role of the Public University in a Democracy Mar 23, 2021
    Show notes

    They had an obligation to take the knowledge that they were developing, to take their expertise and put it in the service of the community as a whole and the service of its elected leaders.

    Chad Alan Goldberg
    A Fulll Transcript is Available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    At the turn of the twentieth century, Wisconsin was at the forefront of the Progressive Movement. Wisconsin adopted the first modern state income tax. It initiated the first workers’ compensation plan. It enacted the first unemployment insurance program. Wisconsin even spearheaded important constitutional reforms like the direct election of Senators. UW Madison Professor Patrick Brenzel explains, “To say that Wisconsin was known nationally for transparent and egalitarian government is an understatement.”

    These reforms were the product of a relationship between the public university, legislators, and other stakeholders. It is known as the Wisconsin Idea. The Wisconsin Idea is a belief the public university has a role to contribute its research to the service of the state. A common motto is “The boundaries of the university are the boundaries of the state.”

    The Wisconsin Idea remains central to the mission of the University of Wisconsin system to this day, but has become the subject of attacks from conservatives in recent years. Among the many efforts by Scott Walker to dismantle the administrative state included an attempt to remove the Wisconsin Idea from the university charter. It failed, but it highlights how there is a genuine debate about the role of public universities.

    Chad Alan Goldberg has been at the forefront of the effort to defend the Wisconsin Idea in recent years. He is a professor of sociology at the University of Wisconsin Madison and the editor of the volume Education for Democracy: Renewing the Wisconsin Idea. This book features chapters from many leading scholars in a variety of disciplines including Kathy Cramer.

    Our conversation discusses some of the history behind the Wisconsin Idea. But it is really about the role of the public university. How is a public university different from a private university? Why does the public support universities? And how does a public university help to shape democracy? These are important questions I never thought to ask, but will mean a lot as we work to renew democracy.
    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    Politics in Question
    Key Links

    Education for Democracy: Renewing the Wisconsin Idea

    The Wisconsin Idea by Charles McCarthy

    The Politics of Resentment: Rural Consciousness in Wisconsin and the Rise of Scott Walker by Katherine Cramer

    Related Content

    Ryan Salzman is an Evangelist for Placemaking

    Zizi Papacharissi Dreams of What Comes After Democracy

    Thoughts on John Dewey's Democracy and Education

    Support the show


    Elizabeth Nugent on Polarization, Democratization and the Arab Spring Mar 16, 2021
    Show notes

    The focus on the individual people involved in this moment and their preexisting relationships for me is a new way of thinking about democratic transitions. Because I think we see how much these personal relationships and personal histories matter for whether or not they can make these really big, important decisions at a moment of very high stress, very little information.

    Elizabeth Nugent

    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    Elizabeth Nugent believes political polarization derailed Egyptian democratization, while the lack of severe polarization has allowed Tunisian democracy to survive. But what makes her work remarkable is she argues Egyptian polarization was the outcome of targeted repression under authoritarian rule. At the same time, Tunisia avoided polarization because repression was more widespread. Stop and think about this for a moment. Tunisian democracy succeeds today because of a legacy of widespread, indiscriminate repression. It affected everyone so opposition groups learned to work together and even sympathized with one another.

    This is a truly counterintuitive insight. But it makes so much sense at the same time. Liz Nugent’s new book is After Repression: How Polarization Derails Democratic Transition. She is an assistant professor at Yale University with a focus on Middle Eastern politics. Her book uses the cases of Egypt and Tunisia to explain her ideas, but her thoughts on polarization will make waves as they are used in other contexts.

    Our conversation discusses Tunisia and Egypt. We also talk about how polarization affects democratization. But I find it most interesting how Liz emphasizes the political process requires real relationships with real people. She reminds us a very human element is necessary for democracy and democratization.

    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music
    Democracy in Danger
    Key Links

    Elizabeth Nugent's Home Page

    After Repression: How Polarization Derails Democratic Transition

    Yale MacMillan Center Council on Middle East Studies

    Related Content

    Thomas Carothers and Andrew O'Donohue are Worried About Severe Polarization

    Jonathan Pinckney on Civil Resistance Transitions

    Thoughts on Samuel Huntington's The Third Wave

    Support the show


    Ryan Salzman is an Evangelist for Placemaking Mar 09, 2021
    Show notes

    Like so many things we're coming to grips with now in the 21st century, we're realizing that the 20th century was the anomaly. We feel like what was happening in the first 20 years of the 21st century that that was the anomaly. But it's not. The 20th century was the anomaly. And there's a temptation among policymakers to say, ‘But this is how it's always been.’ No. Wrong.

    Ryan Salzman

    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    I live in Carmel, Indiana and in May The Farmers’ Market opens. It’s in a small public space between a concert hall called The Palladium and the Booth Tarkington Theatre. The Monon Bike Trail runs alongside it and there is bike parking sponsored by the Mayor’s Youth Council. Live bands play in the center of the market. In the winter, the same space is used for an n outdoor ice skating rink surrounded by a German Christkindlmarkt. This is what Ryan Salzman describes as placemaking.

    Placemaking does not just transform public spaces. It expands them. Placemaking changes how we experience our community and establishes new landmarks. And whether we want to admit it or not, this is political. Placemaking involves the creation and distribution of public goods.

    Local governments make decisions over whether to embrace or prevent placemaking. For example, teenagers can paint a beautiful mural on a public building. Elected officials will decide whether to send a thank you or a citation.

    Ryan Salzman has studied the phenomenon of placemaking in his home of Bellevue, Kentucky and in other communities across the United States. He is a professor of political science at Northern Kentucky University and the author of Pop-Up Civics in 21st Century America: Understanding the Political Potential of Placemaking. He has experienced placemaking as an academic, an elected city councilman, and an active participant.

    Ryan’s work caught my attention because it examines local engagement through a novel lens. It considers political behavior that the participants probably don’t realize is political. It moves beyond theories of deliberative and direct democracy to consider ways everyday citizens produce meaningful action. Ryan and I have a light hearted conversation. But I don’t want to overlook the significant implications of placemaking for political science and political theory. I am excited for Ryan to share his stories and ideas. So it’s about time I introduce you to Ryan Salzman…
    Key Links

    Pop-Up Civics in 21st Century America: Understanding the Political Potential of Placemaking

    Black Lives Matter Mural in Cincinnati, Ohio

    ArtPlace America

    Related Content

    Zizi Papacharissi Dreams of What Comes After Democracy

    Carolyn Hendriks, Selen Ercan and John Boswell on Mending Democracy

    Thoughts on Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone
    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    Support the show


    Kajri Jain Believes Democracy Unfolds through the Aesthetic Mar 02, 2021
    Show notes

    "We don’t pay enough attention to the sensory aspects of what it means to be equal. That’s what it fundamentally is. That’s the presupposition of democracy. Not the goal. The presupposition is that we are equal, but does our comportment reinforce that or does it re-institute hierarchies."

    Kajri Jain

    A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.
    This week’s guest is Kajri Jain. She is an art historian from the University of Toronto and the author of Gods in the Time of Democracy. Her work is well known among scholars of contemporary Indian art. But I doubt many political scientists have come across her work.

    Our conversation explores politics in India through the construction of massive statues that are sometimes the size of the Statue of Liberty or taller. It’s a completely novel way to examine Hindu Nationalism, Dalit identity, and religion in India.

    But the conversation also explores the ways we communicate political ideas and create an inclusive democracy. Art is ultimately a form of communication, but it is largely neglected by scholars of democracy. We might discuss what people say about art, but rarely how the art interacts with us. This is a conversation I could only have with an art historian. But not just any art historian, but one who is also a philosopher and a religious scholar. An art historian who examines people affected by art more than the art itself. This is my conversation with Kajri Jain…
    Key Links

    Gods in the Time of Democracy

    Statue of Unity

    Kajri Jain at University of Toronto

    Key Content

    Thomas Carothers and Andrew O'Donohue are Worried About Severe Polarization

    Yael Tamir on Nationalism

    Thoughts on Jürgen Habermas' The Inclusion of the Other
    More Information

    Democracy Group

    Apes of the State created all Music

    Support the show


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