Chatter

Latest Episodes:

Spy Thriller Fiction vs. Fact with Brad Thor Jul 07, 2022

Show notes

Brad Thor is a #1 New York Times bestselling author who has more than twenty thrillers behind him and shows no signs of slowing down. Rising Tiger, just published on July 5, 2022, yet again places his franchise hero - former world-class skier, Navy SEAL, Secret Service agent, and private intelligence operative Scot Harvath - into deadly situations backlit by realistic geopolitical developments. How does Thor come up with his plots full of international intrigue and his detailed settings for Harvath's globetrotting adventures?

Some of it comes from his parents, a US Marine and a flight attendant. Some of it comes from his personal experience before becoming a full-time novelist. Thor started out as an award-winning creator, producer, writer, and host of the critically acclaimed national public television series, Traveling Lite; since then, he has served as a member of the Department of Homeland Security’s Analytic Red Cell Unit and shadowed a Black Ops team in Afghanistan.

Thor joined David Priess to discuss these questions and much more. They talked about how Thor's writing career started, the work of Secret Service agents, rebuilding trust in American institutions, US-Indian relations, the perils of rising partisan extremism in what Thor calls the "political-entertainment complex," how to write realistic descriptions of widely varied international locations, the value of bad-ass women characters, how he keeps current on geopolitical developments, how and why he places easter eggs in his novels, his encounters with celebrities from George Clinton to Michael Hayden to Mandy Patinkin, and the value of writing fiction by the seat of your pants.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works discussed in this episode:

The TV series Rick Steves Europe
The TV series Traveling Lite
The book Lions of Lucerne by Brad Thor
The movie Iron Man 2
The podcast episode Secret Service Dilemmas and Training with Jon Wackrow on Chatter
The book Suicide of the West by Jonah Goldberg
Brad Thor's other novels
The book The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown
The TV series The Old Man

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Secret Service Dilemmas and Training with Jon Wackrow Jun 30, 2022

Show notes

Working for the Secret Service comes with inherent dilemmas. One of them can arise if agents become partisan actors or allow themselves to even be perceived as such. We heard another one described in shocking terms during this week's testimony before the Jan. 6 committee: A protectee and the agents protecting him or her can disagree with the protectee about the latter's presence in a threatening situation or movement toward it.

It turns out a whole lot of training prepares agents for these contingencies--as well as more predictable ones like how to respond instantaneously to myriad threats. Many lessons emerge from the study of past service failures, up to and including presidential assassinations and attempts. And some others can shed light elsewhere, such as on personal security and safety of institutions from schools to churches.

Jonathan Wackrow knows about it all better than most. Before becoming COO and Global Head of Security for Teneo Risk and a law enforcement analyst for CNN, he worked for decades as a US Secret Service special agent. His work gave him experience in both sides of the organization's mission: investigations and protection, the latter including time on the details for the president and first lady.

Wackrow joined David Priess for a deep and wide discussion about how cable news networks cover tragedy, the challenges of providing insight on security incidents in real time, his path into the Secret Service, how agents are trained, the lessons learned from historical failures of presidential protection, his own experiences with security breaches during the Obama administration, the dangers of perceived or actual politicization in the service, the balance between protecting a president and allowing a president's desired movements, agents' duty to testify in criminal investigations involving their protectees, how Secret Service experiences can help other institutions during an era of rising political violence, the benefits and drawbacks of school active shooter drills, and more.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works discussed in this episode:

The movie The Bodyguard

The movie In the LIne of Fire

The book Zero Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Secret Service by Carol Leonnig

The book The Devil Never Sleeps: Learning to Live in an Age of Disasters by Juliette Kayyem

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Misremembering Watergate and Jan. 6 with Tim Naftali Jun 23, 2022

Show notes

This week, Shane Harris talked with historian Tim Naftali about the legacy of Watergate and how we tell stories, fifty years later, about America’s most notorious presidential scandal. What is it about Watergate that still captures our attention? What do historians, journalists, and citizens misremember about the events? And how does the scandal shape our understanding of the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol?

Naftali was the first federal director of the Richard Nixon library and earned accolades from historians--and criticism from Nixon loyalists--for his efforts to truthfully tell the story of Watergate in the Nixon museum. Naftali has written about intelligence, counterterrorism, national security and the American presidency in the modern era. He is currently a professor at New York University.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works discussed in this episode:

Naftali’s recent article in The Atlantic about a controversial proposal from the National Archives on presidential libraries: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/national-archives-george-bush-privatize-history/639429/

Naftali on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TimNaftali?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Naftali’s book on the secret history of U.S. counterterrorism, Blind Spot: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XBZ2QZ7/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

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Freemasonry and Conspiracism with John Dickie Jun 16, 2022

Show notes

Freemasonry for centuries has been more influential than any other known secret society. Among its prominent members have been five kings of England, fourteen US presidents (including George Washington), and a veritable Who's Who of writers, artists, and politicians. Masons helped with everything from founding the United States to starting the Sicilian mafia, from connecting distant parts of the British Empire to coordinating revolutions, from being the bogeymen for the Catholic Church and fascist dictators alike to performing great works of charity. NASA's Buzz Aldrin even founded a Masonic lodge on the Moon.

Through it all, Freemasonry has featured in conspiracy theories about subversion, perversion, and world domination. Some of these claims, such as those positing Masonic plots to kill John Kennedy and to start the Russia-Ukraine war, are laughable. Other associations between Freemasons and nefarious deeds are more plausible; there was, for example, significant Freemason involvement in modern Italy's most explosive political scandal.

Historian John Dickie, author of the deeply researched history of Freemasonry called The Craft: How Freemasons Made the Modern World, recently joined David Priess to discuss it all. They talked about the secret rituals of Freemasonry; its origins and development in Europe and America; the importance of George Washington and other early American Masons; Masons, the French Revolution, and the Illuminati; the complicated relationship of Freemasonry and race relations in the United State; Dan Brown's bestselling novel The Last Symbol; the rise and fall of Masonic influence in 20th century America; what Freemasonry is such an easy target for conspiracy theorists; and the links among Italian Freemasons, organized crime, and political elites.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works discussed in this episode:

The book Blood Brotherhoods: A History of Italy's Three Mafias, by John Dickie

The book The Craft: How Freemasons Made the Modern World, by John Dickie

The movie The Godfather Part II

The book The Lost Symbol, by Dan Brown

The TV show The Flintstones

The book American Freemasons: Three Centuries of Building Communities, by Mark Tabbert

The book A Deserving Brother: George Washington and Freemasonry, by Mark Tabbert

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Private Sector Intelligence with Lewis Sage-Passant Jun 09, 2022

Show notes

When the term "intelligence" comes up regarding an organization, most of us immediately think of government institutions. And there's a good reason for that; nation-states have become the centers of the most prominent intelligence collection, analysis, and direct action. But that's far from the whole story. Increasingly, corporations are developing intelligence units of their own to uncover and assess threats to their personnel and facilities, analyze geopolitical and environmental risks that might affect their business prospects, and even take actions traditionally associated with governments.

In this episode of Chatter, David Priess chats about all of this and more with Lewis Sage-Passant--who has built on his experiences in British military intelligence, private sector intelligence, crisis management, and related PhD research to explore the history, evolution, and ethics of this intriguing and challenging domain. They discuss the long history of private sector intelligence efforts, the difficulty disentangling early commercial efforts from government purposes, the fabled Pinkertons in the United States, the development of intelligence around modern corporations, the ethical issues that arise in this realm--and James Bond.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works discussed in this episode:

The book Venice's Secret Service: Organizing Intelligence in the Renaissance, by Ionna Iordanou

The book The Richest Man Who Ever Lived: The Life and Times of Jacob Fugger, by Greg Steinmetz

Lewis Sage-Passant''s writing at Encylopedia Geopolitica

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The Secrets of Gay Washington with Jamie Kirchick Jun 02, 2022

Show notes

This week, Shane Harris talks with journalist Jamie Kirchick about his new book Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington. Kirchick’s story unfolds over several decades and reveals the secret history of gays and lesbians in the capital, as well as the history of secrecy in which they played pivotal roles.

The book is a set of personal stories as well as an exploration of the national security bureaucracy at the heart of power and influence in Washington. And Kirchick explores a provocative idea: Were gays and lesbians, already accustomed to living secret lives, well-suited to work as intelligence officers?

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Works discussed in this episode:

Jamie’s book: Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington https://www.amazon.com/dp/1627792325/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_YF2CX5FTCSS1BTCXSATM

His website: https://jameskirchick.com/

Follow Jamie on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jkirchick?s=21&t=E5hDivNZ2g89sHSeSB6DCA

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Movie "Casablanca" in Myth and Reality with Meredith Hindley May 26, 2022

Show notes

This week marks the 80th anniversary of the start of principal photography on Casablanca, the 1942 film that would win Academy Awards for Best Picture, Best Director (Michael Curtiz), and Best Adapted Screenplay (Philip Epstein, Julius Epstein, and Howard Koch). Often ranked by critics and the general public in the top five films of all time, Casablanca was first screened just as the city in French Morocco was hitting headlines because of the Allies' Operation TORCH invasion of North Africa during World War II.

To talk about the movie, the city's wartime history, and the veracity of Casablanca's representations about Casablanca, David Priess chatted with Meredith Hindley--who back in 2017, wrote the richly entertaining book Destination Casablanca: Exile, Espionage, and the Battle for North Africa in World War II. Their conversation covers her advocacy for the humanities and history, unexpected discoveries in archival research, an appreciation of the film, American and French resistance intelligence operations in French Morocco, intersections between wartime Casablanca and personalities from Franklin Roosevelt to Josephine Baker, and what the film got right and wrong about the experiences of refugees and many others in this vibrant city.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Works discussed in this episode:

The book Why We Fight: The Roots of War and the Paths to Peace, by Christopher Blattman

The movie Casablanca

Meredith Hindley's book Destination Casablanca: Exile, Espionage, and the Battle for North Africa in World War II

Meredith's other writings

Megan Kate Nelson, Saving Yellowstone: Exploration and Preservation in Reconstruction America

Woody Holton, LIberty is Sweet: The Hidden History of the American Revolution

Rush, "Freewill"

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

"The Man Who Fell to Earth" with Jenny Lumet and Alex Kurtzman May 19, 2022

Show notes

This week, Shane Harris speaks to Jenny Lumet and Alex Kurtzman, who co-created the new Showtime series “The Man Who Fell to Earth.” It’s about an alien, played by Chiwetel Ejiofor, who comes to Earth in search of technology to help save his home planet, which has been ravaged by a changing climate. He seeks out a brilliant scientist, played by Naomie Harris, who has the knowledge to help build the planet-saving device. But she is struggling to care for a young daughter and an ill father on her own and can barely make ends meet.

The show is based on the cult-classic film of the same name, which starred David Bowie, as well as a novel by Walter Tevis. The new telling is an allegory about climate change, and how humans have the potential to destroy worlds and to save them. It’s also an exploration of the lives of refugees and immigrants. The alien is trying to assimilate and survive in a new world whose traditions he doesn’t understand but whose fate is tied up with his own. And the scientist has been forced by circumstance to leave her old life behind and is struggling to understand where she fits in a different and hostile world.

Jenny Lumet and Alex Kurtzman have been working together for years and have had long and distinguished careers of their own. Jenny wrote the screenplay for “Rachel Getting Married” and has executive produced several TV series. Alex has executive produced numerous science-fiction shows, including the Star Trek series “Discovery” and “Picard.”

Shane talked to the filmmakers about their careers, the stories they are moved to tell, and their creative influences. Jenny also shared some great stories from her unusual childhood. She’s the daughter of Sidney Lumet, one of the 20th century’s most celebrated directors, and grew up in a house surrounded by talented and eccentric artists.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo, with engineering assistance from Isabelle Kerby-McGowan. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Works discussed in this episode:

“The Man Who Fell to Earth” on Showtime: https://www.sho.com/the-man-who-fell-to-earth

The official trailer for the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqM5UeQVRvI

A New York Times interview with Ejiofor about how he developed his character’s unusual physical movements: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/21/arts/television/chiwetel-ejiofor-the-man-who-fell-to-earth.html

Jenny Lumet’s filmography: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0525886/

Alex Kurtzman’s filmography: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0476064/

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Art of the Security State with Trevor Paglen May 12, 2022

Show notes

This week, Shane Harris speaks to artist Trevor Paglen, who explores themes of surveillance, security, and secrecy.

Shane first got to know Trevor’s work through his delightful and spooky book I Could Tell You But Then You Would Have to Be Destroyed By Me: Emblems from the Pentagon’s Black World. It’s a collection of patches and insignia used by secretive military units and classified programs. They’re interesting works of art in their own right. But they also use images and numbers to communicate a hidden meaning. Trevor has spent much of his time decoding those messages and turning them into visual art.

Trevor has turned secret code names into visual installations, tracked and photographed spy satellites as they crossed the night sky, and taken rare photographs of intelligence agency complexes and military installations. He told Shane about his career, as well as his days as a punk musician and his work in journalism.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo with engineering assistance from Ian Enright.

Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Trevor Paglen’s website: https://paglen.studio/

I Could Tell You But Then You Would Have to Be Destroyed By Me: https://www.amazon.com/Could-Tell-Then-Would-Destroyed/dp/193555414X

From the Archives of Peter Merlin, Aviation Archaeologist https://www.amazon.com/Trevor-Paglen-Archives-Aviation-Archaelogist/dp/173209862X

ImageNet Roulette: https://excavating.ai/

Trevor’s photos of intelligence agencies https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/new-photos-of-nsa-and-others/

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Why We Fight with Christopher Blattman May 05, 2022

Show notes

Millions of hostile rivalries exist between groups worldwide, but their conflicts rarely escalate to protracted violence. Because would-be combatants know that all-out conflict usually proves immensely costly to all sides, they regularly find ways to avoid open warfare. And when it comes to international affairs in particular, we tend to focus on the wars that do occur at the expense of internalizing the core truth that, most of the time, they simply don't happen.

Political scientist and economist Christopher Blattman has a fresh take on these big issues of war and peace. He argues for sustained attention not only to the mechanisms by which conflict wins out over compromise but also to the remedies that routinely shift incentives away from protracted violence and get rivals back to deal-making. His research has put him in the room with street gang leaders and African dictators, British football hooligans and drug kingpins--experiences that combine with his insights from political science, economics, and psychology in his new book, Why We Fight: The Roots of War and the Paths to Peace.

David Priess hosts this long and fascinating conversation with Blattman about his hands-on field work, his framework for understanding why groups do and do not choose violence, and what it all means for practical efforts at conflict avoidance and resolution. Along the way, they find their way from the Godfather films to game theory to the U.S. wars with Iraq--and, most of all, they relate much of it to the current war between Russia and Ukraine.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Works discussed in this episode:

The book Why We Fight: The Roots of War and the Paths to Peace, by Christopher Blattman

The Godfather movie

The Godfather II movie

The book The Insane Chicago Way: The Daring Plan by Chicago Gangs to Create a Spanish Mafia, by John Hagedorn

Breaking Bad TV series

The book Beyond Plunder: Toward Democratic Governance in Liberia, by Amos Sawyer

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.