Chatter

Latest Episodes:

Shane and David Give Thanks Nov 24, 2022

Show notes

It's been just longer than one year since Shane Harris and David Priess embarked on a voyage of new adventures aboard the S.S. Chatter, seeking out creative conversations on the distant shores of the national security ocean.

And what a journey it's been.

To date, they've hosted more than 50 long-form conversations on topics from spy novels to Olympic security, from surveillance-related art to assassins' poisons, from 9/11 memorialization to ethical space exploration. The only thing more intriguing to Shane and David than the sheer diversity of topics so far has been the experience of digging deep with such a variety of amazing, creative people.

They are, to put it simply, thankful for the opportunity to have hosted such rich exchanges and to share them with so many listeners.

In this episode, Shane and David review the origin story of the podcast, reflect on some of the conversations on Chatter that stand out to them most many months later, give specific shout outs to several of each other's hosted episodes, subject each other to the random curiosity of the "Chatter Box," and preview a few forthcoming discussions to be featured in episodes yet unreleased. The unifying purpose behind it all? To give thanks to everyone involved in this experiment, from the intrepid Cara Shillenn and her wonderful colleagues at Goat Rodeo, to the team at Lawfare, the podcast's fascinating guests and its faithful listeners.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

A healthy subset of the past year's conversations on Chatter

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Satellites, Space Debris, and Hollywood with Aaron Bateman Nov 17, 2022

Show notes

Satellites have held a special place in military planning and in spy fiction alike for more than half a century. Both domains ended up devoting much attention to satellite-based weapons and anti-satellite weaponry; both have also dealt with the problem of space debris related to the latter.

In this chat, David Priess and George Washington University historian Aaron Bateman talk about Bateman's early interest in satellites, early satellite technology and attempts at anti-satellite activity, the Outer Space Treaty and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, actions by presidents from Eisenhower through Biden related to the testing of satellite and/or anti-satellite weapons, the Strategic Defense Initiative (commonly called the "Star Wars program"), the problem of space debris, the Kessler Syndrome, other countries' satellite and anti-satellite activities, the Space Force, and on-screen portrayals of satellite warfare and space debris from the James Bond movies to Gravity.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book The Hunt for Red October by Tom Clancy

Aaron Bateman's article, "Anti-Satellite Weapons Are Creating Space Hazards. Here's a Way To Limit the Damage," in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists (January 21, 2022)

The film You Only Live Twice

The film Moonraker

The film GoldenEye

The film Gravity

The Star Wars franchise

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Ronald Reagan, Tom Clancy, and Storytelling with Benjamin Griffin Nov 10, 2022

Show notes

Modern presidents both influence and are influenced by books, movies, and television; with no commander in chief is that more clear than with Ronald Reagan. Dr. Benjamin Griffin, chief of the Military History Division at the United States Military Academy, has researched and written the definitive book about the 40th president's interactions with Tom Clancy and other authors, Hollywood films, and other pop culture: Reagan's War Stories: A Cold War Presidency.

In this chat, David Priess and Griffin discuss Tom Clancy's influence on an entire generation, how books with clear moral narratives informed Reagan's childhood, the influence of Whittaker Chambers on Reagan's iconic "A Time for Choosing" speech in 1964, the rich relationship between Reagan and Clancy, the outsized impact of Clancy's first two books, and the complicated notion of presidential "vision."

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book The Hunt for Red October by Tom Clancy
The book The Third Word War by Sir John Hackett
The book Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy
The book Subregional Security Cooperation in the Third World by William Tow
The book That Printer of Udell's by Harold Bell Wright
The film High Noon
The John Carter of Mars books by Edgar Rice Burroughs
The book Witness by Whittaker Chambers
The book Darkness at Noon by Arthur Koestler
The book The Bourne Identity by Robert Ludlum
The film All the President's Men
The film Apocalypse Now
The film The Deer Hunter
The film Patton
The film Back to the Future
The TV movie The Day After
The movie The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951)
The book Euromissiles by Susan Colbourn
The book The City We Became by N. K. Jemisin

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Cryptography in History and in the Movies with Vince Houghton Nov 03, 2022

Show notes

Although codemaking and codebreaking often receive less attention in the public imagination than swashbuckling HUMINT operations and ingenious spy gadgets, they have changed history. The under-appreciation of cryptography might stem from a combination of the complexity of encryption, the classified nature of much of its technology, and the difficulty of conveying codebreaking effectively in pop culture.

David Priess spoke with Vince Houghton about the realities and fictional representations of cryptography, as well as the challenges and rewards of making a compelling museum experience out of U.S. codemaking and codebreaking efforts. Houghton is director of the National Cryptologic Museum, the open-to-the-public museum of the National Security Agency. They talked while walking through the newly redesigned museum in Annapolis Junction, Maryland, highlighting various artifacts including early American codebreaking computers, German Enigma machines, the oldest known book of cryptography (from the 16th century), and code generators for U.S. nuclear weapons. They discussed the provenance of highly unusual items and the value of having so many of them on display. And they traded views on movies incorporating ciphers or codes, from The Da Vinci Code to Sneakers to The Empire Strikes Back to The Imitation Game.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The film The Imitation Game

The film The Da Vinci Code

The TV show Andor

The film Rogue One

The film The Empire Strikes Back

The film Sneakers

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Life as a Canadian Spy with Andrew Kirsch Oct 27, 2022

Show notes

Andrew Kirsch didn’t grow up watching James Bond movies and dreaming of becoming a spy. Like many Canadians, he was barely aware his country had an intelligence service. But when terrorists attacked not far from his office in London, where he was working in the financial services industry, Kirsch decided to apply for a job with CSIS--not the think tank, but the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Kirsch chronicles his decade as a spy for Canada in his memoir, I Was Never Here: My True Canadian Spy Story of Coffees, Code Names, and Covert Operations in the Age of Terrorism. It’s a light-hearted but often suspenseful account of his work in offices as well as in the field.

Kirsch and Shane Harris discussed what CSIS is and what it does--it’s not quite the Canadian version of the CIA--how he made it through recruitment and training, and the work he ultimately did breaking into cars and mapping out terrorist networks.

Kirsch’s memoir appears to be the first by a former CSIS officer, which presented a novel dilemma when he wanted to get his manuscript cleared: There was no one to say yes or no. Kirsch says he joked that his second book might be written from prison - but so far, Canadian authorities haven’t come looking for him.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo, with engineering assistance from Ian Enright. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

Andrew Kirsch’s book: https://pagetwo.com/book/i-was-never-here/

Kirsch on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/as_kirsch

More on CSIS: https://www.canada.ca/en/security-intelligence-service.html

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How To Support a Vice President with Olivia Troye Oct 20, 2022

Show notes

Olivia Troye has worked in the Republican National Committee, the Pentagon, the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad, the National Counterterrorism Center, and the Department of Homeland Security. But it was her role on the small team directly supporting Vice President Mike Pence that brought her the most challenging experiences of her career while making her all too aware of the surprisingly thin staffing for the next in line to the presidency.

David Priess spoke to Troye about her path from El Paso to Philadelphia to Washington, her experience on Capitol Hill on 9/11, serving in Baghdad after the U.S. invasion, working at the National Counterterrorism Center and the Department of Homeland Security, differences between core National Security Council staff and the support staff for the vice president, the many different tasks that support to a vice president entails, Mike Pence as a customer of the President's Daily Brief, the value of civil service professionals, the ups and downs of working with Pence during the COVID-19 pandemic, the inappropriate handling of classified material she saw during her final years on the job, the ethical reasons spurring her to leave government service, the importance of reasonable gun control, and more.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The TV show Homeland

The TV show Veep

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Misinformation in Revolutionary America with Jordan Taylor Oct 13, 2022

Show notes

The American Revolution was fought not only over taxation and representation, but also information. Foreign news, received inconsistently and reprinted according to newspaper editors' biases and misperceptions, helped define the boundaries of early American politics and ultimately spurred colonists to rise up against the British authorities. Digging deep into the horribly flawed media environment from the mid 1700s to the birth of the nation, and then through the first post-revolutionary generation, reveals much about why events played out as they did.

To explore these dynamics, David Priess hosted historian Jordan Taylor--author of the new book Misinformation Nation: Foreign News and the Politics of Truth in Revolutionary America. They covered the persistence of misinformation and claims of "fake news," the origins and severe limits of newspapers in colonial America, the trans-Atlantic communication system, the importance of information and its pathologies during the revolution, Patriots' misperceptions of British politics and society, the French Revolution's portrayal in various American media, information mediation as an elite phenomenon, the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Illuminati scare of 1798-99, lessons of the early American experience for today, how to avoid pessimism in an era of misinformation, and more.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book Misinformation Nation: Foreign News and the Politics of Truth in Revolutionary America by Jordan Taylor

The play Hamilton

The published works of Mike Caulfield

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The People Side of Intelligence with Darrell Blocker Oct 06, 2022

Show notes

Darrell Blocker retired from the Central Intelligence Agency in 2018 after serving as an operations officer and manager in many countries, especially within Africa. His self-described lack of success recruiting assets during early assignments nevertheless taught him important lessons about the intelligence business, about how people work, and about himself; later tours of duty gave him the chance to make up for lost time by excelling at the job while also getting shot at and even gaining minor fame as the lead singer in an African jazz band. Blocker left CIA service as one of the most senior black officers in the Agency's history--and he was reportedly on President Biden's shortlist to become the Director of the CIA. Now, he's involved in several creative projects in Hollywood.

David Priess chatted with Blocker about his career and his activities since retirement. They discussed getting spy stories told on film, growing up as an Air Force brat, understanding the pledge of allegiance, stumbling early in an intelligence career, appreciating the operational environment in Africa, growing from mistakes, accepting lessons from 360-degree feedback, performing on stage in a jazz band, singing the national anthem, being considered as a CIA director, enhancing the CIA's interactions with the media, learning about the benefits of fictional representations of Hollywood's take on intelligence, and more.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The TV series Condor

The TV series Homeland

The Pledge of Allegiance

The Star-Spangled Banner

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hurricanes and Governmental Response with Eric Jay Dolin Sep 29, 2022

Show notes

Every year, the eastern United States faces the prospect--and, too often, the reality--of major hurricanes that cause extensive physical and financial damage. This year is no exception; even as Hurricane Ian approaches the Gulf Coast, more storms are likely in the coming weeks.

David Priess chatted with author Eric Jay Dolin about the history of Atlantic hurricanes, with a special focus on such storms' influence on U.S. national security. They spoke about the devastating 2017 hurricane season, how tropical systems are covered in the media, Ben Franklin's role in hurricane science, the role of Caribbean hurricanes in the American Revolution and the Spanish-American War, the evolution of the federal government's storm forecasting and crisis response efforts, hurricane hunter flights, attempts to use technology to disrupt massive storms, Hurricane Andrew (1992), the effects of climate change on tropical systems and their impact, viewing hurricanes as national security threats, how humans assess risk, and films about hurricanes.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book A Furious Sky by Eric Jay Dolin

Other books by Eric Jay Dolin

The film The Day After Tomorrow

The film The Perfect Storm

The film Violent Earth: New England's Killer Hurricane of 1938

The film Titanic

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Josephine Baker, Singer and Spy, with Damien Lewis Sep 22, 2022

Show notes

In her day, Josephine Baker was one of the most famous women in the world. Fans recognized the superstar singer, actress, and dancer everywhere she went, particularly on the streets of Paris, where she often walked a pet cheetah on a diamond leash. Why would anyone think such a conspicuous person might make the perfect spy?

Author Damien Lewis set out to answer that question in his latest book, “Agent Josephine: American Beauty, French Hero, British Spy.” It chronicles Baker’s remarkable career as an agent for French counterintelligence during WWII. Baker participated in numerous clandestine missions, and her work informed British and U.S. intelligence as well.

Baker left the United States in the Jim Crow era and was embraced by French audiences. But she became a target of Nazi propagandists. When Germany invaded France, Baker devoted herself to the Resistance and the Allies’ cause. It turned out that her performing talents were well suited to work as an intelligence agent. Baker used her connections to get close to Axis VIPs, including in the Italian government, who didn’t know she was passing valuable details from their conversations back to her French compatriots. She used her extraordinary fame as a cover, at times hiding secret documents practically in plain sight while on tour.

Lewis and Shane Harris discussed Baker’s remarkable and little known espionage career, which reveals much about the inner life of one of the 20th Century’s biggest stars.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

Damien Lewis’ book, “Agent Josephine:” https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/damien-lewis/agent-josephine/9781541700666/

Lewis’ other books” https://damienlewis.com/books/

Lewis on Twitter: https://twitter.com/authordlewis

Baker and Lewis in The New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/08/15/josephine-baker-was-the-star-france-wanted-and-the-spy-it-needed-damien-lewis-agent-josephine

Baker inducted into the Pantheon: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/30/1059776777/josephine-baker-france-pantheon

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