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12: Nourishing A New Narrative with Jessica Wilson Jan 27, 2023

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Today I’m joined by dietitian and activist Jessica Wilson to discuss her new book It’s Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies - a book that uplifts and celebrates Black women.In the episode we talk all about what drove Jessica to write the book and why we need to re-centre the experiences of Black women in our conversations about bodies and eating disorders. Jessica shares some of her critiques of intuitive eating and body positivity, and why white supremacy isn’t the root of diet culture, but the whole damn tree. Plus, lots of Lizzo chat and great Snacks. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Jessica here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Sign up to the Raising Embodied Eaters workshop here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here’s the transcript in full:Jessica: And so, so quickly it became diet culture has racist roots. And that was the concession. Like, we need to talk about both of these things in anti-diet spaces. And the way that we're gonna do it is say that diet culture, you know, make it really like this tree analogy. Uh, and then just happens to have racist roots.Whereas I see white supremacy as the tree, it's what's sticking up out of the ground. It's what we can see. It's what is, you know, ruling and governing and decides, you know, who is able to fit under its branches. And I, you know, shrinking ourselves via, maybe that's the connection to diet culture there, is one way people are trying to seek shelter under this, you know, umbrella, this tree of white supremacy.INTROLaura: Hey team, and welcome to another episode of Season Two of Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter.I can't wait to share today's conversation with dietician and activist Jessica Wilson, who is also author of the forthcoming book, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies. I've linked to this book in the show notes because you need to go and pre-order it immediately. So in this conversation you'll hear Jessica and I discuss her new book. We'll talk about some of the ideas that she presents in the book, like how the body stories and narratives of Black women are raised and silenced in conversations about health, wellness, and body positivity. Jessica tells us about why if we distill difficulties with food down to just the thin ideal, we end up missing a lot of the complexity of how Black women are told to be figuratively and literally smaller as a matter of survival. We talk about how intuitive eating and rejecting diet culture don't address systemic issues like anti-fatness and anti-blackness. And they perpetuate the idea that we need to find individualistic solutions to systemic and structural violence. We talk about how white supremacy and anti-blackness isn't at the root of diet culture, but how, in Jessica's words, it's the whole damn tree. We talk about Lizzo and respectability, resilience and toxic body positivity, and loads and loads more. I think I'm gonna be unpacking this book for a long time to come, and I'm just so grateful to Jessica for writing it and I think as a white person, I mean, my opinion doesn't really matter here, but I feel like it's important to sit with the discomfort and the critiques and reflect on the ways that I've perpetuated some of these harmful systems and narratives. And if you're a white person in this space, whether for personal or professional reasons, you need to get this book and also sit with that discomfort.So again, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Stories of Black Women's Bodies, and it's available to pre-order now and it will be out on the 7th of February. The pre-order links are in the show notes. It goes without saying that we talk about themes around anti-blackness and enslavement and anti-fatness. So if you're a black person or a fat person, please take care of yourself if you choose to listen to this conversation.All right, before we get to today's conversation with Jessica, I just want to share that I'm gonna be running my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop again in February. It will be a 90 minute workshop. Completely online and you will be sent a copy of the recording afterwards to watch back. We'll talk about how kids’ embodiment gets disrupted by diet culture, and what this has to do with feeding. We'll discuss why we need to throw the rule book out of the window and let them have ice cream before broccoli, and how we can help build trust in our kids to get what they need. I'll offer a framework that can help you feel more relaxed about mealtimes, whilst encouraging kids to have autonomy. We'll talk about how providing supportive structure can encourage children to remain in touch with their internal cues for hunger, satisfaction, pleasure, and fullness. And I'll cover how fussy eating develops, and other developmental milestones as well as tools to help support our kids through them. We'll talk about why cutting out sugar and saying things like just another bite can undermine kids' instincts around food, and we'll cover how to talk about food and bodies without harming. You'll be asked to fill out a short questionnaire about your specific situation ahead of time, and I'll try to tailor the content to the audience as much as possible. You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download. The workshop is suitable for grownups of kids of all ages, but best probably for kids under 12. Parents, whatever that means to your family, grandparents, teachers, nutrition professionals, and anyone else working with kids are more than welcome to join. It'll be on Tuesday, the 21st of February, also pancake day, that's seven o'clock and it's 15 pounds to join. Full details and booking information is in the show notes and the transcript for this episode.And just before we get to Jessica, just a quick reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader supported publication and podcast. I'd love to bring you more deeply researched pieces like my piece on clean eating and kids from a couple weeks ago, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor. So if you are in a position to become a paid supplier, then please consider it, it's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's not accessible to you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co uk, putting the word “snax” in the subject line, and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. You don't need to justify yourself. Just send that email with “snax” in the subject line and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription.Okay, team, here is my conversation with Jessica Wilson.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Jessica. I'd love it if you could tell us who or what you are nourishing right now.Jessica: That will be a big what. Laura, you're the first person that I get to talk to on a podcast and share that my book, It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women's Bodies will be out finally in 2023. So I am putting all of my energy and capacity into taking that book across the finish line.Laura: They don't tell you when you sign that book deal, that the publishing part, like the promoting, the marketing, all of that stuff is like more work than just like the writing part and the editing part, which is also a lot.Jessica: It is and at least you know like where you're going with that. You know where the book ends, begins and is in the middle, but then this nebulous like what is happening afterwards, that is also more work. Yeah. I was not prepared. I recommend somebody write a book about what it's like to write a book.Laura: I know we need that book.Jessica: Yeah. It never ends, it never slows down is the summary.Laura: But that's also a good sign. Like if they're keeping you busy with lots of marketing stuff, that's a good sign. And for good reason because I have been one of the very privileged people to read an advanced copy and I'm just, I'm so excited about this book. I think you've done such an amazing job of like dissecting these, like really difficult to, to digest and process ideas, but you've woven it, interwoven it with like humor, and like historical context and pop culture references and, and like, it just, it's like a pleasure to read it even though it's like really difficult to to read. So tell, can you tell the audience what the book is about and what it is that you're trying to say through this book?Jessica: I think that there were two parts of it, um, in my career as a dietician for, ooh, 15, I don't know, 17 years we'll say. Um, and even before that, the ways that we've talked about eating disorders, the ways that we've talked about eating always centers, like white folks experiences and the ways that eating disorders are supposed to present are how they present in very thin white girls and women.And like I was trained with all of that knowledge and it just was falling flat on its face when I was working with anybody else who wasn't thin, white and a cis woman in my work. And I also didn't have any other Black dietician colleagues, we only make up like 3% of the dietician field. And so I had no one to talk to about it.Um, like very lost reading Carolyn Costin's book, which again, you know, it's not anything new, it's just the same old centering of the same people. Um, so it wasn't like years or decades later that I realized that all of this needed to be in one place. I was having so many conversations, but how can we put all of this and give it context in a place and in a time where, you know, diet, culture and intuitive eating are becoming so much to the lexicon. And it still wasn't as complex as I really needed it to be.Laura: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a lot of nuance missing from those conversations and a lot of people missing from those conversations. Like in the book, you detail, you know how there are a few, like, I mean, it is like a few old white dudes in the eating disorder field that have written all the manuals, all the textbooks, all the protocols, all the psychometric testing everything,Jessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: to center their ideas about who gets an eating disorder, how it presents, and what the root causes are, which you completely obliterate in like the first couple of chapters.Jessica: The idea that it's all about beauty, right, is one that I for sure, you know, was trained in. It was everybody wanting to be thin and thin for beauty's sake. And because we have very thin models, like that's why people want to shrink themselves. Um, and yeah, just to be prettier and as we, you and I have discussed, and you know, other communities as well. Uh, folks of color, particularly black women in this book, can find a lot of survival and safety by making themselves both, uh, literally and figuratively smaller. So by shrinking, you know, in spaces where we're told we're too much, or even, you know, before we can be told we're too much, shrinking ourselves is one way to find that, you know, survival in white supremacy and then also of course for fat folks mitigating anti-fatness, um, by, you know, starving oneself is one way to find a bit more peace, even if it is not, you know, both sustaining and nourishing, I guess, for them.Laura: Yeah, it's a survival mechanism. It's a way of living in a world that is openly hostile to you and trying to make that as, as easy as possible for yourself. And even then, it's not easy. It's still not easy.Jessica: Yeah. And some people hear, you know, this conversation and I've had comments on Instagram that, you know, say, well, it sounds like you're saying it's okay to have an eating disorderLaura: Jesus fucking Christ.Jessica: And I'm like, no, I understand why you're saying that. I totally see why when I say I understand why you're starving yourself, to somebody who could be triggered to hear, I approve of you having an eating disorder.But yeah, that's not what is going on.Laura: That's a real red herring.Jessica: Yeah. The compassion, the understanding, and then also like eating disorder recovery is not going to make the things that they are, you know, somewhat solving by becoming smaller. They're not gonna make those things go, like magically go away.So how do we have a really, really hard conversation that talks about not just eating intuitively and recovering, but like the harms of society.Laura: Yeah. You're not saying that restriction, deprivation and trying to micromanage everything that you eat and trying to shrink your isn't unpleasant. You're saying, you're, it's not un-Jessica: or differently harmfulLaura: Yeah, it's one way of trying to survive in a world that's really unsafe. And what you were saying is like these are the options availableJessica: Mm-hmm.Laura: The, the options are try and reform, conform through restriction and deprivation and, uh, you know, through effectively self-harm or endure the, you know, more microaggressions or overt aggression um, because you, you're even farther from the white ideal, is that like. Jessica: And what society finds acceptable. There is no easy path. under white supremacy for those whose bodies don't align with what, you know, Puritan culture had in mind. And that we continue to value as a, as a society. So there really is no easy path forward. And all of us are really trying to do the best we can.Laura: And I think you kind of touched on this as well, but you talk about, in the book that, you know, rejecting diet culture and embracing anti-diet, intuitive eating approaches to eating is not the one, it's, it's not gonna save us. That these are oversimplifications of, you know, what, what needs to happen, what needs to change.Do you wanna kind of touch on that a little bit more and, and explain why, why you think that is?Jessica: I think you teed it up really nicely when we talked about the safety and survival that people can find in shrinking themselves. Intuitive eating in all of its, you know, forms, fashion and principles like is not going to make anti-fatness or anti-blackness go away. So even if I, you know, are open to start eating again, if I've been restricting and in deprivation and I want to embrace intuitive eating, the reasons that I had shrunk myself initially, like will arise, and intuitive eating is not going to be like that solution. I will still be experiencing the other things. Again, also, it's an individual solution to a societal problem. And I often find that, you know, me asking you, Laura, to participate in these like rituals, these um, principles, you know, really puts the onus on you as a person that needs to solve a problem that you did not create.Laura: Hmm.Jessica: And as a clinician, you know, that doesn't read well to me. And I also, um, I want people to think less about food because, you know, as you know, as we deprive ourselves, the amount of times and amount of time spent thinking about food goes up exponentially.And so I don't like to really organize people's existence around, you know, always thinking about their food, but also not having like specifics as a, as a field. In the book I talk about talking to three of…

Full show notes at the publisher

11: Nourishing Recovery with Whitney Trotter Jan 20, 2023

Show notes

HEYO. And welcome back to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast! We took a break back in November after wrapping up Season 1 of the pod with Katie Greenall talking all things Embodiment, so check out that episode if you haven’t already. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.We’re kicking off Season 2 with Whitney Trotter - Registered Dietitian and nurse, Anti-racism Educator/Consultant and Human Trafficking Activist. Whitney is also mother to a 6 year old who is a selective eater. In this ‘sode, Whitney and I talk about her daughter’s eating and what this brings up for her as a dietitian and eating disorder professional. Whitney goes on to talk about her work supporting parents with eating disorders who are really struggling in their relationship with food and their body, looking closely at the underlying anxieties that come up around eating and what they can teach us. We talk about what feeding children can bring up for parents who have eating disorders or disordered eating and how that experience can be so triggering.And Whitney talks about how going to the drive thru is 1) not something you should feel bad about and 2) something that can actually bring more connection when you’re feeding a family.Find out more about Whitney here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here’s the transcript in full:Whitney: You know, I always think anxiety can teach us so much, right? Like, we typically treat anxiety as all bad, but I think it's a root of a lot of things. And so really leaning into, okay, what is the anxiety telling us? You know, are we, is there a fear? Right? So for sometimes, it's the meal that we're cooking. The parent or mom really wants their kid to have variety, but they're so worried about how this particular food is gonna show up for them. There's a lot of myths. There's a lot of lies that their eating disorder has told them about certain foods. And so really processing through that, processing okay, what feels safe to eat? What feels safe to share like community wise with our family. Things like that. And maybe even delegating, you know, what is their partner doing? Can the partner help with the meal times and the plating and the cooking, things like that, will that dial down some of that anxiety?INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to Season Two of Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Whitney Trotter.Whitney is a registered dietician and nurse, anti-racism consultant and human trafficking activist based in Memphis, Tennessee. And as we'll learn, she's also the parent of a six-year-old who is a selective eater. So Whitney and I talk about her daughter's eating, and what this brings up for her as a dietician and an eating disorder professional. It touches on anxiety, fear, and feelings of failure, especially if you've made your whole career about nourishing people.Whitney goes on to talk about her work supporting parents with eating disorders who are really struggling in the relationship with food and their body, looking closely at the underlying anxieties that come up around eating and what they can teach us. We talk about what feeding children can bring up for parents who have eating disorders or disordered eating, and how that experience can be really triggering.We also talk about renourishing our inner child through eating nostalgic kid foods, and I talk a little bit about that article that I published last week on clean eating orthorexia and kids, which I've linked to in the show notes and the transcript, if you haven't already seen that. And we also talk about how mumfluencer culture and diet culture collide to make it seem like feeding kids is about an aesthetic as opposed to being based on something that's achievable or realistic or practical or even functional.And then Whitney talks, uh, about how going to the drive-through is one, not something that you should feel bad about. And two, something that can actually bring more connection when you're feeding a family. Lots of really cool stuff. We kind of go all over the place, but in a good way. And I really enjoy talking to Whitney, she's someone I've wanted to have on the podcast for a long time, so I'm glad that we finally made it work. I just want to give a content warning. We talk about body image in the context of sexual assault and miscarriage. Not in any detail, but I just wanted to mention that it's there. We also talk about eating disorders and our experiences of having babies in the NICU and breastfeeding challenges. So if those are things that you don't need to hear right now, then please skip ahead. There will be another episode out next week. And before we get to today's episode, I just want to share that I am gonna be running my Raising Embodied Eaters workshop again in February. A lot of you have been asking about this. I kind of took a break from running workshops as I was getting my Substack up and going. Um, but now I'm able to kind of offer, I don't know how often I'm gonna do it, but we're gonna have one in February. It will be a 90 minute workshop completely online, and you'll be sent a copy of the recording afterwards to watch back.So you know, if bedtime goes way later than you're expecting, then um, yeah, you'll be able to catch up with it another time. We'll be talking about how kids' embodiment gets disrupted by diet culture, and what this has to do with feeding and how it can affect the feeding relationship. We'll discuss why we need to throw the rule book out the window and let them have ice cream before broccoli, and we'll talk about how we can build trust in our kids to get what they need.I'll offer a framework that can help you feel more relaxed about mealtimes whilst also encouraging kids to have autonomy. We'll talk about how providing supportive structure can encourage children to remain in touch with their internal cues for hunger satisfaction and pleasure and fullness. And I'll cover how fussy eating develops and talk about some developmental milestones with eating as well as tools to help move through it. We'll also talk about why cutting out sugar and saying things like just another bite can undermine kids' instincts around food. And we'll talk about how we can talk about food and bodies without causing harm. So you'll be asked to fill out a short questionnaire about your specific situation ahead of time, and I'll try and tailor the content to the audience as much as possible.You'll also get a copy of my Raising Embodied Eaters download. The workshop is suitable for grownups of kids of all ages, but I would say it's probably best for kids under 12. Parents, whatever that means to you and your family, grandparents, teachers, nutrition professionals, and anyone else working with kids are all welcome.It will be on Tuesday, the 21st of February, which aptly is pancake day, and it will be at seven o'clock and it's 15 pounds to join and it will be over Zoom. The full details and the booking information is in the show notes and the transcript for this episode. For those of you who are subscribed to the newsletter, you'll get a reminder and a link in an upcoming newsletter as well.And one more thing just before we get to Whitney, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack is a reader supportive publication. I'd love to bring you more deeply research pieces like my piece on clean eating and kids, but it requires a significant investment in my time, plus the support of an editor. So, if you are in a position to become a paid subscriber, then please consider it. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's not accessible for you right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk, putting the word snacks in the subject line and we will hook you up with a comp subscription, no questions asked. Alright, team, here is my conversation with Whitney Trotter.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Whitney, I'd love it if you could share with the audience who or what you are nourishing right now.Whitney: Oh my goodness. Okay. Well I am a mom of a feisty six year old, little girl who I just adore. So, we were kind of talking before the thing about some other dieticians that work in pediatrics and feeding and things like that. So I'm exploring the land of working with the selective eater. So our, yeah, so it's really fun.Like our, nourishing times are a bit chaotic right now and so doing that. I'm also, uh, an avid coffee lover, so I have been trying different just flavours of coffee, different roasters and a non beverage food thing that I've been kind of nourishing my soul with lately is I've been listening to the audiobook of Hood Feminism.I love, love it. So.Laura: Yeah, lots of different things. Tell us about your selective eater a little bit more.Whitney: Oh my goodness, so I think any, any mom, but particularly like dietician, nurse, mom, it's, it's so hard to like really kind of step back from our traditional schooling. So she legitimately has like six foods that she'll eat. Um, Mac and cheese, chicken nuggets, bacon, pancakes, strawberries, peanut butter and jelly. And that is it. So we've been really working with, you know, the autonomy piece, but also like, you know, there's also that just like natural worry of parents of it's like, okay, is my kid getting enough? Like, so many times in like our kind of traditional setting, it's like variety, variety, variety. And so really working on trying to let her be autonomous in the variety.So we've been giving her like, you know, three options to choose from and then she gets to choose out of those, like three to four options, what she's willing to try.Laura: Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting hearing from a parent who is, is, you know, has, I don't wanna say legitimately selective eater, because that makes it seem like other forms are illegitimate. But I suppose what I was thinking about there is how from social media, we get a really distorted picture of what kids should eat.And we see them eating like kale and I don't know, mushrooms and all of these, these foods that are really challenging for little kids. And so then when they go through that like normal or like typical food neophobic stage as toddlers and preschoolers and even into like school age, that parents have this sense that they're this, that they're developing feeding differences.And it's not until you hear of a child who is literally only eating six foods that you realize, wow, okay, actually my kid does have a reasonable variety and balance of food. So how are you, are you like, are you getting professional support with that? Like, and, and also like what does that bring up for you as a dietician, as a nurse?Whitney: Well at first you're like did I fail my kid? What am I doing wrong? I mean, you know, cause I work in and I see, I work in the land of eating disorder, so I treat a lot of children and adolescents and adults with disordered eating and eating disorders. So it is interesting. We do a lot of food neutrality, like we do not moralise food. Food is food. So, and she's, she's a spicy six year old, so she's very quick to, you know, to say the same thing that, that I'm teaching her back to me, which is always funny. So she's on the growth chart, like she's growing and so right now we're just kind of, you know, living in the land of offering the choices and not forcing, and then just making sure she's getting enough of the foods that she will eat throughout the day.So the biggest thing is I just wanna make sure she was growing and nourishing. And she is, and our pediatrician is wonderful.She's also Venezuelan, and so I think it's just a, another just added benefit of she's seen kids in from so many different other cultures and countries. And so she was like, you know what? I'm not worried. I don't want you to be worried. I'm like, okay.Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And I like, I suppose it is really reassuring to hear from another healthcare professional like it, you know, everything looks good here. But I can also imagine like, as, as a nutritionist being like, holy shit, my kid is only six. Like, it is, it's so, even though I work with that population, like I know it's like really anxiety provoking when, you know, like kind of in the way that doctors make the worst patients like... Whitney: Yes, it's so true, so true. Cuz I mean, you really do, you're like, okay, what do I do? Like, you know, especially again cuz working in the eating disorders, you know what the outcome could be if you say certain things, if you press too hard. You know what I'm saying? So we're very cognizant of that. But we also just, we are, we really do tend to like, let her choose a lot of things. Like we really are those type of parents that like work with her in bodily autonomy and even when it comes to food, you know, so, it, I would be lying if I said it wasn't challenging, cuz it definitely is challenging. So we're kind of just staying the course right now.Laura: Well, and this is a, this is a, a different thing, but I have a two and a half year old and I've, I've spoken about this, loads on the podcast, but he was in the NICU for like two, only like two weeks, which, actually, I say only two weeks now, but at the time it felt like an eternity. And we had a really, really difficult time getting feeding established, breastfeeding established, and yeah.And, and there was something that felt so like, It, it just like really shook the core of my identity as a nutritionist to not be able to feed my child.Whitney: Yes,Laura: There is something that, that like just touched on, something like really deep, like I've made my entire career about nourishing people, yet I can't nourish my own child and that, I don't know if, if that resonates with you at all in your experience of feeding your daughter. Whitney: This is so wild that you're saying this, and thank you for sharing that. We had the exact same thing. She was in NICU and they gave her a, they gave her the wrong nipple. They, for the bottle, it was like a fast,Laura: A fast flow. Yes. That happened to us too.Whitney: Yeah. So then when she went to latch, I couldn't, she, she couldn't latch.And so similar, you go through this period, like you feel like a failure, you know, like you feel like, like you just said, it's like I, I've spent my whole career trying to help others nourish their body and like, I can't even feed my own child. And so she ended up with a really bad gag reflex, like, just really, really bad when she was younger. We would have to like prop her up to sleep. She was on medication. So I mean, it's been, yeah, even now she will kind of sometimes struggle with that, but yeah, that resonates so deeply. And just the trauma of your baby being in NICU, I mean, so, it's so traumatic for you, you know, as a parent. And so, yeah, definitely. It's so interesting. We have similar, uh, similar stories regarding that.Laura: Well, and then I think this is the, the thing that I've kind of discovered, like through having conversations on this podcast is that it it, because it, it happens to so many of us but we're just kind of expected to power on and keep go…

Full show notes at the publisher

Bonus: How To Respond When A Kid Asks ‘Am I Fat?’ with Virgie Tovar Nov 25, 2022

Show notes

CIHAS pod is on a season break until the new year. But I promised you some fun bonus pods in the meantime, so here goes. Some juicy, unreleased content right here! Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.This week, we’re jumping back to my conversation with the fabulous Virgie Tovar from episode 8 (if you haven’t listened to that ‘sode yet, now’s your chance). This snippet didn’t appear in the OG episode, but Virgie shares some really helpful tips on her approach to how to respond to a kid who asks ‘am I fat?’. Virgie sets out seven steps you can take to help you handle this question in an age-appropriate way, and considers things like what if you don’t feel OK about your body, and how you can help the kiddo if they are being bullied about their weight. Spoiler - I might have convinced Virgie to join the ‘Stack. And she might have agreed to write a very cool, fat Christmas love story to share on CIHAS in December 👀 👀Find out more about Virgie here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here’s the transcript in full.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to a special bonus episode of Can I Have Another Snack? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? Newsletter, so regular listeners will know that we are currently on a season break, and we'll be back with full episodes in January.I did promise you all a few bonus tidbits from guests that appeared in season one. So today I'm sharing a snippet of conversation with Virgie Tovar who appeared in episode eight of the podcast. Go back and check out the full conversation if you haven't already. It was a really great episode. This snippet didn't appear in the original episode.It's unreleased content where Virgie sets out her approach to how to respond to a kid who asks, am I fat? This is a question that I get asked so often that I wanted to create a dedicated resource that people could access without having to listen to a full hour long episode. It's also something that you might want to share with a co-parent, a spouse, or a partner, or even a grandparent, to help them navigate these conversations too.Virgie sets out seven steps that you can take to help you handle this question in an age appropriate way. And she also considers things like, what if you don't feel okay about your body and how can you help the kiddo if they're being bullied about their weight? So we're gonna get to Virgie in just a second, but first a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? podcast and newsletter are entirely listener and reader-supported. That means I depend on community, meaning you listening right now to support my work by becoming a paid subscriber. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, and you get access to our exclusive community only threads on a Thursday, the full back archive of essays and posts and dear Laura columns where I answer your questions and some bonus audio content, as well as the free posts that go out to everyone. If you value what we do here, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber and helping make this work sustainable. You can also gift a subscription to a friend this holiday season, and we have included a gift certificate for you to print out or email to your friend who is anti-diet curious, or your mom who kind of gets it, but could do with some extra help, or your partner who absolutely does not get it and needs a kick up the ass.So you'll find that linked in the show notes for this episode, at laurathomas.substack.com, and if for any reason you can't pay for a subscription right now, but you would find it helpful to have access to this content, then please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with snacks in the subject line and we'll hook you up, no questions asked.And thank you so much to those of you who are already paid subscribers who are helping to make this work sustainable. I really, really appreciate you backing me. All right. Let's get to my chat with Virgie where she is helping us navigate the question of how to respond to a kid who asks, am I fat?MAIN EPISODELaura: So Virgie, something that you published on your newsletter recently that I really loved and would love to hear you maybe like talk us through it, because I thought it was such a helpful guide, was how to respond when a child asks, I guess their parent, or like it could be a spare-ent or a, you know, a family friend who, whomever you are in that child's life, what if they come to you with a question of, am I fat? And kind of thinking about our broader conversation of, of kind of respectful parenting and, and raising kids, you know, free from diet culture, free from body shame, how would you go about responding to that question?Virgie: Yeah, I mean, I kind of walkthrough in the article seven steps, like step one. I really love that because it really helps people kind of visualise like what's happening. Right. I think, I think, you know, to begin with, before we even get into sort of the steps, the most important thing to understand is your job is fairly simple, right? Like the logistics of getting the job done, I'm gonna get into, but your job, if I can sum it up, is to basically, your whole goal is to convey that fat phobia is wrong. And so, you know, I think this is, there's sort of like a meta, like before we even kind of, right, like there's obviously the question, am I fat? It begs a response of yes or no. It begs a binary. But what I'm arguing is that we need to, when, when our, when a kid approaches us with that question, we need to actually be, you know, the adult in that moment by saying basically that this question is not the important question. The important question is, is seeing people through the lens of good body, bad body, is that something that we believe in? And the answer is no. So, you know, your job is simple basically to, to protect fat kids from fat phobia and from stigma and to teach kids of all sizes that fat phobia is wrong. And so just to kind of go through the steps really quickly,First, recognise that changing narratives is really difficult. So in general, right, like you're being thrown a ball that is very, very complicated and fraught, and your job is to kind of hold, you know, your instinct is gonna be to throw the ball back as quickly as possible because it's uncomfortable. But what's important is to kind of have that moment where you're holding the ball and you're like, Okay, this is complicated. I'm feeling maybe afraid, maybe angry, maybe confused, but it's okay. Just have those feelings. You can responsibly navigate this conversation, even if you're still unresolved about your own body, you know? So I think, I think like to use a counterexample of something that's a little bit more culturally established, right? Like, you know, if a kid was asking you, um, if they're part of a marginalised group or not, with the understanding that that marginalised group is considered bad, Basically, how would you navigate it in, in another situation, right? Like if it was around race, if it was around class, if it was around ability or sexual orientation, right? Like, like think about, think about it in the context of that.The second thing in the steps is don't reflexively say no. Um, this is kind of like where the issue gets, This is typically when this conversation can really get off the rails. So like, again, take the time to have the reaction. It's okay if you're thinking about it, it's okay if you need a minute to talk about it, that's totally normal. But I think the most important thing is a lot of our instincts because of how much fat-phobia there is in the culture, it's to reflexively say no. And in that no, we are saying no, nothing is wrong with you. Right? But, again, this, this likeLaura: the idea that fat is bad.Virgie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So don't reflexively say no, and I, and I kind of, you know, in this part of the article I talk about how when I was a kid, my mother would sort of vacillate between telling me that my body was fine, whatever size it was, and telling me that I wasn't fat, which confirmed in my mind that being fat was a negative.Laura: Mm-hmm.Virgie: And then the third thing in the steps is ask questions like, why do you ask, or what does that word mean to you? I think that like not only does this open up inquiry, it also is giving you information about whether or not your child is being bullied or they're witnessing emotional abuse. I don't love the word bullying, so I think that it just really doesn't get to the scale and the, and the impact of like what childhood emotional abuse happens, even between peers.Um, but anyway. You can get information about whether or not your child is being targeted or this child is like experiencing or witnessing something that is bad for them. And I think also it can kind of get into their worldview, like, what is their context for this? So for example, the example I use in the articles, like, maybe a teenager is asking you this, and in fact you're all, you're really worried that this teenager is being bullied or whatever. But in fact, they maybe saw that word online. They saw fat activism on the, so on social media, and they're just really curious about it and whether or not they can identify with that word. And that's a whole other conversations. I think there is kind of like stay in the information gathering phase of this, of this conversation maybe longer than you, than you might sort of think you would be for, for a seemingly simple question.The fourth step is,Laura: Oh, can, can we, can we pause for a second? Sorry, Virgie. I wanna ask you, because there's something that's so important, I think, in kind of what you said in between steps three and four, in between steps three and four, you mentioned a couple of like just hard truths for grownups to kind of stick to when they're having these conversations and I think they're so helpful. So I'm just, I'm maybe just gonna run through them real quick if that's okay. So you say you don't need to be a medical professional or expert in this topic to share important talking points. Fat phobia is wrong. People who fat shame other people are doing something wrong, even if no one else says it's wrong. The second thing, fat bodies are a part of a normal and beautiful spectrum of body diversity. Three, it's unhealthy for a person to try and have a body that they don't have naturally. Lots of people become ill because they're trying to be thin. The next one, my love and acceptance are not conditional on your weight or size. A good friend's love and acceptance should not be conditional on your weight or size. And the last one, you have the right to stand up for your body and for fat bodies, even if no one else does. And I think even, you know, I think they're so helpful because even if you get lost in whatever, you know, other bits of the conversation, coming back to those like anchor points feels really, really important. So I just wanted to mention them and also I'll link to this, um, article in the show notes so that people can like, you know, refer back to it. So anyway, sorry to derail you there for a second, but I just, I thought that that was a really important point. Um, so yeah, we were up to number four.Virgie: Yeah, I mean those talking points, I mean honestly, right? Like I totally, I think a lot of people feel like. Ill equipped to deal with conversations like this, and I'm just like, I mean, literally, even if all you do is repeat those talking points, um, it's enough.Laura: Cuz so many people, people who are coming from the anti diet, you know, like if they've been in the anti diet space for a while, like they know that, oh no, human diversity is like just a fact of life. And all bodies are good bodies and deserve respect. You know, like just coming back to those like, you know, the, the most simplest distillation of like anti diet work. Like, just come back to those.Virgie: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, again, going back to a counter example, I think like a lot of, you know, like I think a lot of people are sort of really eager, people who are sort of against, or not on the side of this conversation are really eager to throw around kind of basically the only data point that the medical establishment has, which is sort of, you know, from our research, you know, this belief that people in larger bodies just live lower quality or shorter lives. And I think what's useful to understand is like a counterpoint that's useful to know is in general, white people live longer than black people. So I mean, and, and we would never consider, you know, go like basically saying like, you probably should try to be a white person so that you can live longer and have better health outcomes, We would say, right like, Huh, that is a health disparity statistic. What's that about? Right? And when we kind of come down to it, a lot of it has to do with basically the ongoing experience of, of discrimination, right? But, but at the end of the day, right, like there's all kinds of differentiating health outcomes typically between majority group and targeted group. And it's, it's really only in this domain of, of fat phobia and weight where we really are asking the group that is experiencing abuse to acquiesce and assimilate to the bigotry rather than asking the group who is perpetuating the bigotry to change their behaviour. So I think it's like, really it's, it's just, anyway, it's like there's a lot there, but I just kind of think like, there's a lot to be said for, This is wrong. It's just wrong. Like, is it, it's immoral and we don't have to go past that point. There's not an argument after like it's, it's, it's dehumanising and immoral. Yeah, but you know, what about this statistic? I'm like, well, but it's just, I mean, there's no, you don't, there's no conversation after this is dehumanising and immoral. Um, do you know what I, like it, Like we could also optimise our health by like literally, you know, like the government distributing whatever, right? Like, and, and we probably could recognise that would be weird. Um, So all that to say like, I mean, I don't wanna get too in the weeds cause I'll just get, I'll just like start, start like saying things for hours. But all that to say like, you know, I think really just the, the key, the point is this is wrong, this is immoral and it's dehumanising. And that's kind of the end of the conversation, right? And for someone who's, Yeah butting, just knowing like, hey dude, like if you're not down with human rights and things being moral, like there's nothing else for us to talk about. We're probably not on the same page on a lot of things.Laura: Yeah. Yeah, that's like, that's really as far as the conversation needs to go, but yes. Go. Um, we were on Number four I think.Virgie: Number four. So talk about body shame and weight stigma in an age appropriate way. Right? This is just basically about kind of conveying what the talking points are saying, right? That like basically human diversity is a real thing. It's immoral to judge people or treat them badly based on their body size, period. And then, you know, depending on the age of the kid, you know, a teenager, you would have a slightly perhaps more sophisticated and detailed version of explaining that. And for a kid, you know, you can use reference points that are, um, relevant t…

Full show notes at the publisher

10: Nourishing Embodiment with Katie Greenall Nov 11, 2022

Show notes

Alright folks, here it is! The final episode of Season 1 of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast (keep an eye out for Season 2 in the new year!) - and we’re ending with a bang! This week I’m chatting to Katie Greenall, theatre maker, writer, and performer of the award-winning autobiographical solo show ‘Fatty Fat Fat’. We speak all about Embodiment and disconnection from our body, and discuss how we can handle a funky body image day. They also give us the inside scoop on their upcoming show ‘Blubber’.Find out more about Katie here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here’s the transcript in full:Katie: I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass-shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat, queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today I'm sharing the last episode of Season One of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. I’ll be back in January with ten brand-new episodes with some incredible guests. And in the meantime you can follow along on the Can I Have Another Snack? Substack where I’m gonna be sharing some really cool features over the holiday period including my emo kid Christmas playlist, an anti-diet gift guide, and some guest holiday pieces from Kristen Scher and Virgie Tovar. You’re not going to want to miss them, they’re seriously great and I can’t wait to share them with you. So make sure that you’re signed up to receive those posts at laurathomas.substack.comAlright team, I am so pumped to introduce you to today's guest. Katie Greenall is someone whose work I've followed for a long time, and I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.For those of you who don't know Katie, they are a facilitator, theatre maker and writer living in London. She makes autobiographical work that often explores fatness, queerness, and community alongside making work with young people and communities across London. Previously, Katie performed her award-winning autobiographical solo show, Fatty, Fat, Fat and is currently developing their new show Blubber, which we're gonna talk about in this episode. We're also gonna talk about embodiment and feeling disconnected from our bodies, and how Katie handles a funky body image day. Before we get to Katie, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely reader-supported. We don't have sponsors or do adverts or anything like that. I don't make money from affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything that you don't need. All I ask is that if you value the space and the community that we're building, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber.Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Yes, you get perks and bonuses and all of that great stuff. But more than that, you make this work sustainable and accessible for everyone. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's unaffordable for you just now, please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word snacks in the subject line, and we will hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. Also consider gifting a subscription to one of your pals this holiday season, or getting someone to gift it to you. Alright, team, let's get to our last guest of the season, Katie Greenall.MAIN EPISODE:Laura: All right, Katie, can you tell us who or what you are nourishing right now?Katie: I love this question. I would like to think that especially this week, I am nourishing myself. I am really trying to form some new habits this week. I've had a bit of a, I'd say a few big few months of lots of different things, particularly work-wise. And so this week I'm really focusing on building some new habits and just like getting my shit together a little bit.And so, I've really been finding that really nourishing for me. Uh, so I would say top of the list, I'm nourishing myself. That isn't usually the case. That's usually, if I'm being really honest and reflective, that self and nourishment is usually much further down. But I'm really kind of stepping into that this week, which is why having this conversation with you feels like really beautifully timed because, um, yeah, I genuinely for the first time in a long time feel like I'm doing some nourishing of myself.Laura: It sounds like that's kind of unfamiliar to you.Katie: Hmm. Yeah.Laura: I guess I have two questions on that. Like one is what, you know, what is difficult about that for you usually, secondly, you know, what is that, that self nourishment looking like for you at the moment.Katie: I think it's difficult for a number of reasons. It's difficult because, one, I work a lot, um, So a big part of my job is facilitating and holding space for other people. Um, predominantly that's working with young people in different theater settings. Like I run lots of young companies, I work in schools, or with other, in other community settings.So like my literal job is holding space for other people, um, maybe similarly to yourself, uh, or in a, kinda, in a very different way. But that idea of, of a big part of what I do is holding and hopefully nourishing other people, nourishing artists or, um, yeah, like young people, to be able to achieve what they want to achieve, to access new skills and stuff like that.And so often when I get that, a lot of that work happens in evenings and at weekends. And so just stuff like eating meals and going to bed and having any sense of routine, which is something that is really important to me, just gets pushed further and further and down the list. And the more, you know, it was just definitely not revolutionary, but like the more tired you get, the more you feel like you're, it's harder and harder to keep hold of any of those things. So that's one thing. I think secondly is that I've been taught I shouldn't be taking care of myself. That like I, that me and my fat body don't deserve care. And sometimes that is really hard to challenge. Sometimes it's really hard to have the extra energy or capacity to be like, Oh, not only am I gonna give myself the care or the nourishment, Which I think is such a beautiful word, but not, not only am I going to do that, but I'm also, that takes energy in itself. I also have to take the next level of energy, which is to do that in spite of a structure that is trying to stop me from doing that. And so it's really hard and I've spent a long time knowing that, now I've come to realise, understand more about fat liberation and the capitalist structure and diet culture and all of those things, the more I've realised I can't and don't want to go back to having, having those thought cycles. Sometimes I don't have the power or the capacity or the strength to, to challenge them. And so I exist in this sort of no man's land instead. And so yeah, it feels really nice to be able to have the capacity, and time and resource to be able to kind of apply that nourishment to to myself.Laura: Yeah, that's a really, um, there's something quite striking in what you've just said, you know, and I think a lot of us experience this from time to time, like intellectually understanding that we are being oppressed by systems that, you know, that don't care about our lives or don't care about our wellbeing, that only find value in us if we are producing and conforming and looking a certain way and et cetera, et cetera. And, and, and, you know, wanting to, you know, placing value in rejecting those systems. And also there's still being a huge barrier to overcome to access self care, to access self nourishment, to care for ourselves and, and sort of, I don't know, I'm just imagining this kind of liminal space, this no man's land that you were talking about, and I find that a lot of us probably feel stuck in that place quite often.Katie: Yeah, because there's a real resistance, like I'm, I'm resistant to regressing into this, this space that I, you know, I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.Laura: Yeah.Katie: I'd have glimmers of it and then be like, but it was so hard to hold onto, and I thought the only way that I could hold onto them more was, was to not be fat anymore.Laura: Yeah.Katie: And so I just, I utterly refute. I completely resist, going back to thinking like that. And so I would much rather sit in this no man's land space. But that being said, it's really difficult and it's meant that I have felt increasingly disconnected to my body in a way because I am reframing it as something that like, doesn't define my existence, or doesn't define my ability to achieve happiness or success or love or any of those things. The multitude of those. But I can't always work out how to achieve them. And so it's really challenging. And so it's felt like it's easier to sort of build some space between me and my body, rather than live that under fear of going back to a place that I don't wanna.Laura: Yeah. So many little, little threads that I want to tug on there. I suppose what I'm thinking about is just this, like the energy required to subvert the system and just say, No, I'm out When still existing and living within those structures, within the, those confines and, and all of the, you know, I suppose what we're talking to is this idea that yes, we can cognitively understand anti-fat bias or racism or capitalism or whatever structure that we're, we're naming, which they're all the same thing really. Let, let's face it, um, that, that, that is the issue, but still not, you know, we still need resources to be able to survive in those systems. And, you know, if we, you know, the less access we have to those resources, the harder our lives are. And so, you know, we can yeah, label something as anti-fat bias, but it still doesn't stop the system from, you know, perpetrating anti-fat bias whenever we need to go to the doctor or buy clothes or fly in an airplane or just, you know, walk down the street.Katie: And I think, you know, there is also a huge privilege in being able to decide when or when I do or don't want to engage with my body. And obviously sometimes I don't have a choice, um, often when then someone else enters my space and, um, Kind of those micro-aggressions or macro-aggressions, either from other people or structure, whether that's like societal structure or like the physical parameters of my space i.e. When I can't help but feel an arm of the chair digging into my side. Like, there are sometimes where I can't help but be faced with that. But I think, you know, it is a privilege to be able in my day to day life, to the moments when I can, to be able to choose whether or not I want to engage with my, with those things each, each day.And I, and I don't take that for granted. I don't necessarily find it easy, but I, I don't, I don't take those for granted. And that was because I am white and, middle class and, not disabled, and, and multitude of other things. But, um, it's really difficult and I guess when I'm making work about my body, I'm opting in to engage with it. And think that's probably why making work about my body is so important to me because I think it's a way for me to opt in and to also in like, to a great extent. I mean, it could definitely be better, but like I've also been paid to do it um, you know, I'm being paid for the labor of, of opting in to engage with those things, as I say, not a lot. And certainly I'm not being paid for every moment that I'm like going through that. But that's why I think it's really important when I'm making work about my body that, that I do make work about my body because otherwise, I, I wonder how much of my life I would just not, not feel embodied.Laura: But it, it's, it's so interesting, like I, I was just thinking as you were talking here about this idea of, you know, no man's land, being in this liminal space with your body and, like it sounds as though for you disconnection, disembodiment is, is a choice almost. And, or maybe that's not quite the right way of, of framing it, cuz I think that's maybe too simplistic a way to describe it. But really what I'm trying to get at is that oftentimes disembodiment and, uh, disconnection, dissociation are, are labeled or framed as this really negative really, you know, maladaptive is the, the word that we would use like in in the body image lingo, right? Like from an academic perspective, Right. But what I'm hearing from you is that it's a survival mechanism. It's a coping mechanism.Katie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, I think about choice is really interesting. Cause like I definitely don't think it's active choice. I don't get off each day and go, or each week and go like, I'm choosing toLaura: Disembody. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: Um, there's clearly something is, like something within me is making that choice or something that's happening to me.But yeah, it's a hundred percent a survival technique but it's not necessarily one I'm ashamed of. I think I'm, most days I am proud of my fat body and I'm proud that I'm surviving in it. I am proud that I am still fat in spite of it all, that I'm honouring what my body needs and how it wants to exist in this moment. And I will like, whatever it is that I have to do in order to maintain that in a way that like, makes it make sense for me is something that, I'm not going lean away from. And I, and I think I begin to touch on this a bit in, in the show that I'm in the process of making at the moment, Blubber, which is like, I think towards the end of the process of making my last show Fatty, Fat, Fat, I was saying the same thing, you know, as is the nature of things when you perform something a lot or you talk about something a lot or, repeat yourself a lot. I was taking up the same space over and over again, or having the same conversations with journalists or audiences. But I was saying all the right things, but I wasn't, I wasn't connecting to them in the same way. And that's what this show, what Blubber's kind of came rooted in, is finding a way to try and feel more embodied, um, trying to feel mor…

Full show notes at the publisher

09: Nourishing Anti-Racism Work with Anjali Prasertong Nov 04, 2022

Show notes

I’m super excited to share this conversation with Anjali Prasertong - writer and registered dietitian, focused on food systems and racial equity. In this episode we talk about Anjali’s path towards anti-racism work, why anti-racism work is so badly needed in the field of nutrition and dietetics, and how you can begin to start noticing where white supremacy culture is showing up for you, and how to find places to start unlearning white supremacy, especially if you work in nutrition, but even if you don’t this is a really valuable conversation and I hope you learn a lot from it. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Subscribe to Anjali’s newsletter hereFollow her work on Instagram hereFollow Laura on Instagram here Here’s the transcript in full:Anjali Prasertong: And that was a really just clarifying moment for me where, you know, we're talking about all these systems in the world that we live in, that uphold white supremacy. And I just sat there and realised like, Oh, like I'm falling out of love with dietetics because I've never heard anyone talk about racism and the effect that white supremacy has on nutrition when we all know it has a huge impact. And it's, it's complicit, it's part of the system. And kind of in that moment I was like, I just wanna, like racial equity and anti-racism in food is what I'm interested in and it just doesn't feel like anything else I could do would be as impactful. So that, that was sort of the turning point for me professionally.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter.Today I'm talking to Anjali Prasertong. Anjali is a writer and registered dietitian focused on food systems and racial equity. She's originally from Los Angeles where she was a contributing editor for the award-winning food website, the Kitchen, before moving to New Orleans, Louisiana, and getting her master's of public health degree. In New Orleans, she led an innovative city-funded corner store program that increased fresh food access in low-income neighbourhoods and worked with food entrepreneurs looking to operationalise racial equity in their businesses.She currently lives in Denver, Colorado with her husband and her two children. Her newsletter, anti-racist dietitian, which by the way, hard recommend, is about the intersection of nutrition and racial equity covering history, food systems, land, water, politics, basically everything that lies beyond the individual choices we make about the food that we eat.Anjali writes about what she wishes she had learned as a nutrition student, and she's creating a space that centres honesty, vulnerability, and the lived experiences of people of colour. In this episode, we talk about Anjali's path towards anti-racism work, why anti-racism work is so badly needed in the field of nutrition and dietetics, and how you can begin to start noticing where white supremacy culture is showing up for you and how to find places to start unlearning white supremacy, especially if you work in nutrition.But even if you don't, this is a really valuable conversation and I hope you learn a lot. And while you're here, just a reminder that if you're not a fully paid-up member of the, Can I have another snack community then you're missing out on so many great benefits like our Thursday discussion threads, Snacky Bits, where we're having smart conversations away from the noise and the fat-phobic trolls of social media.You'll also get access to my Dear Laura column where this month I was answering a question from a stepparent about parenting a fat child. Plus you'll get access to my anti-parenting, my anti Diet parenting, not Anti Parenting downloads, bonus podcast episodes and loads more. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, and your support allows me to pay a podcast editor, a copy editor for my long-form essays, and it pays for the hours and hours of research and other labour that is required to produce thoughtful writing. If you need a comp subscription for any reason, then please just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with snacks in the email header and we will hook you up. No questions asked. And one last favour to ask. If you're listening to this in Apple Podcasts, please go and leave a rating and review. We haven't had any reviews yet, which is a total bummer because it really helps more people find this podcast episode and hopefully feel heard and supported by these conversations. All right, team. Here's Anjali.MAIN EPISODE:Laura: So Anjali, I'd love to know who or what you are nourishing right now.Anjali: So I'm nourishing, um, my family who I'm always nourishing, uh, which is my husband Rob, and we have an eight-year-old son and a two-year-old son. But I'm also lately just been really nourishing myself. I have had a pretty big professional change in the last year and within the last two years, a lot of big life changes and it feels like the first time in a long time that I can just sort of enjoy the world around me. I mean, I think a lot of people are probably feeling similarly. And I've really been sort of getting back in touch with creativity, which used to be a big part of my life, um, and just trying to find ways to nurture that, whether it's going to museums or just spending time in nature, reading all sorts of different kinds of books and just yeah, just kind of reconnecting with that side of the world.Laura: Mmmh. That comes through in your newsletter in your Friday post where you're talking about just things that have been bringing you joy lately. And I've so appreciated getting those posts in my inbox because it's a reminder to take stock and notice the things that are bringing us joy. And yeah, as you're sort of alluding to the world has felt really heavy the past two years. I mean, it has been a heavy place, and I think we do need those reminders to connect with joy because it also, you know when you are doing, particularly if you're doing work that is rooted in social justice in some way, it's very easy to get burnt out otherwise.Anjali: Definitely. Yeah, I think. The Friday Joy pieces were sort of like, Oh, you know, I wanna have something else and, and what can be something that I don't need to do a lot of research for. But for me it's, it's been kind of a grounding practice to really think about like, what is bringing me joy, what's keeping me nourished And, I've just, in the last couple years, been able, it feels like I've been able to bring a lot of things into alignment with my life as far as being able to live my values.And, this last piece of just getting back into writing again, which is something that I had done for my entire life, but had sort of stepped away from when I was doing my studies, just getting back to writing is really, I think it feels like just completing the circle for me and, bringing me a lot of happiness and fulfilment that I feel I've been missing for a long time.Laura: I love the expression that you used there, which was kind of bringing things into alignment with your values, and I wondered if you could speak more to that idea.Anjali: Sure. So I lived in, so I'm originally from Southern California, and then I lived in New Orleans for seven years, which was an incredible experience, but it was also just a very shocking experience for this sort of escaping the California bubble and moving to the deep South for, I mean, many reasons it was shocking. But, It didn't, you know, there would be small things that would kind of, I would complain about while living there. Like, why don't I, why can't I recycle glass? Just this feels so strange to just throw this bottle into the trash or, you know, why is the school system all charter schools?So I'm trying to send my kindergartner to a school in a way that's not going to perpetuate these inequities of the educational system and it's almost impossible.Laura: Sorry to interrupt you, but we don't have charter schools here, so would you mind explaining what they are and like why that's an issue?Anjali: Sure. So charter schools are basically, for-profit schools. Usually, they have some sort of, like alternative focus or something that, um, the founders believe that the public school is not offering to students. And sometimes that can be a great fit for people. They do receive public money. So the problem with charter schools, so the problem that some people see is that it funnels children away from the local public schools.And, you know, in the United States, there's not many places where, especially these days where people of different socioeconomic status, different races, different cultures all come together in one place. So, a public school is a great site for being able to interact with all different sorts of people.So in some places, you know, charter schools are funnelling kids away and that's harming, at least I think the fabric, the social fabric of the country. And in New Orleans, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, basically the entire school system became only charter schools. So that means in New Orleans we lived down the street from a public charter school.And there was no guarantee that we would be able to get into that school. There was no guarantee that we would get into any school that was what we preferred. So, just inequitable in so many ways. One of them being like, how do you find out what school to go to? Probably through your networks. Who's in your network? Probably people like you. So it, it really creates this hierarchy of good schools which are disproportionately white because most public schools in New Orleans are almost like 90% or more black students. And then creates a system where, you know, students whose parents don't have time to go to all these open houses and decide what school they wanna send their child to can end up going to these schools that are close to failing.So it, it's just very complicated, frustrating, and inequitable system and really tests your resolve as someone who wants to live by your values of like, okay. I want to, you know, it's a, it's a lottery in the end, so you put your choices and then if, depending on where you're chosen in the lottery, you get placed in a school.So it was just a question of, all right, if he doesn't get into these schools that are, you know, in my top choices, will I send him to like a, a school that's rated a c that is, sort of close to, unable to meet the needs of its students. So we didn't, I wasn't put in that situation.He ended up getting into one of our choices, but, it, it's, yeah, so, so just that whole system and various issues with living in a deep red state in the United States. Just constantly was testing my values of like, how far am I willing to go? How much am I willing to sort of inconvenience myself or push myself to live what I believe?So when we moved to Denver, it was just like a great relief. I just felt like I had been so tired from fighting against these wins for so long that it just felt good to be like, Oh, I can just, just live my life in alignment with what I believe to be true. So, we actually, my son does go to the, the local public school now, and it's amazing.It's such a, a great community and just all these small things that have really brought me a lot of fulfilment in my life. Laura: And the other thing that you touched on was a career change. And I'm wondering if that, if you were talking about the, the sort of path that you've been on the, towards becoming an anti-racist dietician, which I know has, sort of, has seeds sown in your experiences in New Orleans. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that.Anjali: Sure. So, you know, moving to New Orleans was just a huge wake-up call for me, because I had been in a dietetics program, in near LA and just met amazing students. Had teachers from all over the world just bringing really diverse perspectives and never really felt the, the whiteness of the dietetics field while I was there.And also just very open to kind of alternative, you know, it's California, like alternative, cutting edge ways of approaching nutrition. And then moving to Louisiana, I had to switch to a state school that was kind of in the middle of the Cajun Bayou. So that was a huge culture shock for me.And then also just the approach to nutrition dietetics was completely different, where it was just very much by the book, this is what you're supposed to do, we're just kind of gonna scoff at any sort of alternative viewpoints.Laura: Sorry, can I just before we, before we keep going on, because I think this is important, and again, this is where like a lot of my listeners are based in the UK and Australia, weirdly, um, and, they may not have that context of what the Cajun Bayou is. Like, I know, cuz I lived in Texas for five years, so I get, I know where you're coming from, but I wonder if you could just maybe tell us a little bit more about what exactly you mean by that.Anjali: Sure. So it is like a really, in the Cajun Bayou is a really interesting place because it is so uniquely American and there's no nowhere else like it in the world. So it's sort of the area of Louisiana, close to the Gulf of Mexico. And so, it, you know, has always been a place of very waterways and very like, rich with life.Like there's a, you know, a lot of indigenous cultures that have long history there. And, so it's just an interesting place in that it combines, you know, the, those sort of the indigenous history, and also the French fur trappers that came to that area, like early in the history of the United States, because Louisiana was for a long time, like a French colony. So there's a lot of that influence. And so it's just a very unique place. So if you think about, you know, like a crawfish boil or like alligators, uh, what's the Disney movie Princess and the Frog, Like that sort of, um, swampy, the sort of Cajun accents, a lot of spicy food, um, that, that life is the Cajun Bayou.And it's interesting because it is quite rural. And so people actually do have a very close connection to their ancestor's foodways that I think is really interesting, you know, that, like people are still eating things that their great-great-great grandparents were eating, and the like recipes passed down for generations.So it does have that old, old history.Laura: Yeah. Like it's not uncommon for people to eat things like squirrels right?Anjali: Hunting's very big. Yeah. Every, a lot of people actually live next to like a canal or some other waterway. So it's really common for kids to be like driving boats from a, a young age and, living on houseboats and things like that.Laura: Well, okay, sorry for the, the little detour, but I just thought it would be helpful.Anjali: Yeah. Let me know if there's anything that's too American.Laura: And, and, and I'm wondering as well, and I don't know if this is gonna be important context for the rest of your story, but, and this again may be, uh, an assumption that I have, but I have this sense that, and especially cuz you said that it's quite rural as well, that there's a lot of poverty there. Is that fair to say?Anjali: Yeah, so that was also just a real wake-up call because, I mean, I could just feel it in going from one state school, l…

Full show notes at the publisher

08: Nourishing Your Inner Child with Virgie Tovar Oct 28, 2022

Show notes

I am SUPER excited to introduce this weeks guest - the fierce and fabulous Virgie Tovar! Virgie is an author of some really amazing books (which you’ll find linked in the transcript below), activist, and expert on weight-based discrimination and body image. Virgie also has her own pod called ‘Rebel Eaters Club’ and has her own column at Forbes, where she writes about plus size fashion and also how to end weight discrimination at work.This conversation went in a totally different direction than I had expected it to, but in a really interesting way! I’m super excited for you all to hear this one, but we do talk a little about childhood abuse and eating disorders so if you don’t think you’re up for it right now, maybe shelf this episode for another day. Find out more about Virgie here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Here’s the transcript in full.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Virgie Tovar, and for the 1% of my audience who don't know who Virgie is, she's an author, activist, and expert on weight-based discrimination and body image.She holds a master's degree in sexuality studies with a focus on the intersection of body size, race, and gender, and she's a contributor for Forbes where she covers the plus-size market and how to end weight discrimination at work. Virgie edited the anthology, Hot and Heavy: Fierce Fat Girls on Life, Love and Fashion, and she's the author of You Have The Right to Remain Fat and The Self-Love Revolution, Radical Body Positivity for Girls of Color, which I will 100% be featuring when I cover body-affirming books for teens on my newsletter.In this episode, we talk about the work Virgie is doing to heal her inner child. I really love how Virgie contextualizes this work as mothering work as part of her wider project of maternity, as she calls it. And that's where she's exploring whether she wants to be a biological parent and the layers of grief, social conditioning, and reconciling her own childhood that she has to go through in order to process.This is not at all what I thought we were gonna be talking about today. Virgie kind of took this in an unexpected but really interesting direction. I really hope you enjoy it, so much juicy stuff in here, and I think you're gonna love this episode. But just a heads up that there is some mention of childhood abuse and eating disorders. We don't go into lots of detail, but if you're not in a good place today, then maybe sit this one out and come back when you're feeling a bit more up for it. And while you're here, just a reminder that if you're not a fully paid-up member of the Can I Have Another Snack community then you're missing out on so many great benefits like our Thursday discussion threads, Snacky Bits, where we're having smart conversations away from the noise and the fat phobic trolls of social media.You'll also get access to my Dear Laura column where this month I'm answering a question from a stepparent about parenting a fat child. Plus you'll get access to my Anti Parenting Downloads Bonus podcast episodes and lots more. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, and your support allows me to pay a podcast editor, a copy editor for my long-form essays, and it pays for the hours and hours of research and other labor that is required to produce thoughtful writing. I figured this out earlier and five pounds a month works out as paying me 55p per article. So if you think that these articles are worth at least 55p, then please consider becoming a fully paid-up member of the Can I Have Another Snack community. And if you already are, thank you so much.And if you fancy gifting a subscription to a friend, I would super appreciate that. Thank you. And if you need a comp subscription for any reason, then just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with ‘snacks’ in the email header, and we will hook you up - no questions asked.And one last favour to ask. If you're listening to this in Apple Podcasts, please go and leave a rating and review. We haven't had any reviews yet, which is a total bummer because it really helps more people find the podcast and hopefully feel held and supported by these conversations.And I know you all are listening, so please just drop a quick comment or leave five stars. I would really appreciate it. All right, team. Here's Virgie Tovar.MAIN EPISODELaura: Alright Virgie, can you tell us who or what you are nourishing right now?Virgie: When I think the, I mean, I think I'm nourishing a lot of things, but the first thing that comes to mind is, really nourishing my child self who is, has a, just has a lot of trauma and has a lot of, um, you know, like I, I started therapy about a year ago and it's been this really interesting kind of process of like almost trying to, you know, untangle something or figure out a puzzle or just like learn a whole new way of, of thinking, but it, it's just become really clear that my little Virgie self is super terrified. There's like all of these things that she doesn't like and she's really scared of and so just kind of not only understanding that she deserves and needs a lot of attention and care, but at right now, as, as a 40 year old person who is considering biological maternity, but probably not, not going to be a mother. Um, biologically, certainly. And I think kind of going through the grief process of letting go of that narrative, which is a cultural narrative. And it's also kind of an internal narrative and just recognizing that, you know, I think I learned this from a friend recently, or someone actually someone I follow on the internet who I'm hoping to work with on this topic. But, you know, really understanding that the project of that inner child who didn't really have a childhood, it is a legitimate form of maternity, is a legitimate motherhood project. And so I think it's like, what's what I'm nourishing is that kid, that inner kid. And also the sense that that in fact it is true, that raising her and caring for her is its own maternity project. And it's a legitimate maternity project, even if it's not recognized by the culture.Laura: Oh my God. I feel like I'm gonna cry. I was not expecting you to say any of that, but that is just, it's so beautiful and there's something in there I probably need to take to my own therapy, but it really resonates with me and I just love this idea so much of, of mothering. You know, I, I love any conversation that talks about mothering outside of the parameters that society has dictated for us, which are usually, as we were just talking about, off mic, you know, heteronormative relationships, between a, a cis man and a, a cis woman and, you know, da da da. We all know that story. And so, yeah, just to think about different ways of mothering and tending to, and caring for parts of ourselves as, as being encompassed within that. Like, that's just, I mean, I think that's just a stunning thing to think about regardless of, you know, whether or not you have biological children or, you know, are, are a parent in some other kind of like, however you became. . all of that was just to say, I love his idea. Like, tell me more. What is this work looking like for you? How are you nurturing, you know, little inner child Virgie?Virgie: Yeah, I mean, I, a lot of it is just slowing down, like giving her the time to have a feeling, and to recognize the feeling and to sort of ask like, what do you need right now? So I, I think I, the, the, the temporal piece is the piece that really stands out. I mean obviously we, we sort of, I think that we live in a world, at least I feel like I live in a world in the United States and California, where, time is, you know, time is considered sort of this extremely limited resource. And I think that there's a real, obviously a premium on productivity and things like that, but it's become really clear to me that emotional processes are happening on a totally different timeline. Like even just, I mean, noticing. So for example, the other day, I, this is kind of a, a, an inter, like, it's a bit of an involved story, but I think it's useful in sharing what the nurturing looks like.Laura: Yeah. Let's do it.Virgie: Because it's not exactly like what you'd expect maybe. Okay. So the other day I was out shopping and I ran into a neighbor and I said, Now how are you doing? And she said, You know, I'm honestly not doing really well. She was having a really hard time. Her apartment had gotten flooded and then the landlord was sort of, her landlord was trying to evict her and she takes care of her 81 year old grandmother with a chronic illness and there was a lot going. And so, and so what's happening as this is, um, so for me, like there's two sort of people in the room as I'm listening to my neighbor, there's grownup Virgie who's like having compassion, thinking about, what I can do to help thinking about what resources I can deploy and how I can help her feel comfortable and safe for even just a few minutes as we're together.And then there's little Virgie who is extremely parentified, who grew up with parents who were sort of, you know, essentially like emotionally immature. So I constantly had to take care of them. I constantly had to parent them. I constantly had to sort of worry about their emotional state, and that because it was an inappropriate role reversal, it was very traumatizing.So grownup Virgie is having a totally great, very, you know, I would say like adult appropriate response to hearing this from her neighbor. Little Virgie is like, terrified. Little Virgie is really, really, really scared that an adult is having a really difficult time and that she doesn't have all the resources she needs to save her from her situation, you know?And so I'm just sort of deeply aware of that, that sort of sense of terror is rising within me and so taking care of little Virgie in that moment looked like actually a number of different things. One was sort of being like, you know, recognizing, I know you're afraid. And there's sort of a term called flooding for people who have developmental trauma. It just, like flooding is really when all the emotion, they're just flooding in, you know? And it's really difficult to tell what your boundaries are, to tell what your needs are. And I sort of, you know, can have a difficult time separating myself from the person who's having little Virgie does.Um, so I'm like, Okay, little Virgie, you're totally afraid. And that's okay. And so I'm kind of, you know, as I'm listening to my neighbor and being present for my neighbor, there's also a part of me that's sort of like, Okay, don't worry. We're gonna take care of your boundaries. Let's think about it, cause little Virgie is like, Okay, so I'm terrified, but let's have her move into our apartment can bring her mom and her two dogs and, um, everything's gonna be fine. And you can just cook for her and clean for her and like, comfort her and make sure that she's not afraid. And, you know, and so like little Virgie's just trying to save her. And so, and I'm like, Okay, I know you wanna do that. Um, but actually, right, like let's only offer the resources that we know aren't going to threaten our ability to be okay because, And so I'm just talking to her and being like, What's another, instead of, instead of that little Virgie, like what are some other options?Like maybe we can drive her home, maybe we can check up on her over the phone in the next couple of days. Maybe we can ask our friends what they might do and they have some ideas and some of them work in fields where that might be useful. Um and what if, you know, like you actually have the resources to offer to pay for a hotel or to offer her some gift cards or whatever if she wanted to book an Airbnb, if it gets too rough, like, and little Virgie was like, Ah, yeah, that sounds way better than what I was thinking. Um, and so, and I think the next couple of days, cuz emotionally flooding is so overwhelming, I was like, little Virgie is gonna be exhausted, little Virgie is gonna take longer to do tasks.Like, it's just, she's just really tired because even though it was just like a seemingly small moment, you know, she is, she felt like it was a really big moment. Um, and so it's like, it's like all of those things are kind of, that's how that looks like, you know?Laura: Wow. I'm, yeah, I'm trying to even figure out where to go from here. There was so much in there that I kinda wanna go back to. I thought we were talking, I thought we were gonna talk about ballet, dude, like. But this is good. This is like, this is really good and. So I hear what I'm hearing you say is that little Virgie, because she was so used to having to care for people in a way that was so out of her depth, that was so, you know, beyond anything that should be asked of a child that that ended up becoming a traumatizing experience. And so whenever you encounter someone who's in crisis, or even if it's not crisis crisis, even if it's like things are a bit shit, then like little VIrgie sort of armors up and is like, All right, ready to go into battle, like, what do I need to do? And it takes like, you have to talk her down and remind her that she's safe. It's okay. We have other ways of dealing, like dealing with this that won't compromise yourself, that won't compromise your wellbeing, and your safety.Virgie: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, yeah, that, that's, that's exactly what, what's happening. And I think there's a lot of, you know, I mean, I just, again, going back to the, to the project of maternity, it really is like all of those little moments. I mean, you know, as a mom, like, you know, and that, obviously there's all of these little moments and I think children really do experience the world through, through emotion, you know?And so it's like, you know, just kind of being like, okay, like whenever there's, and again, the stakes sometimes are high, sometimes they're relatively low. And she's perceiving, right? And I think this is all connected to a conversation about food and body and all of this understanding, right, that like, at the end of the day, the stakes to her are acceptance, which is basically, you know, to a child, the difference between life and death.Right? And so I think that the stakes can feel extremely high, especially when you start getting messages about all kinds of things as a kid. Like, I mean, I was recently, this is, this is a little bit of a, of a, of a more, I think more specific to the, to the topic of the podcast. But like, you know, I've, I've had many moments where I'm realizing that the fat phobia that I also learned as a child at the age of like four or five years old, that, uh, you know, I'm, I was always a bigger kid and I'm a bigger adult.And so, you know, like being, being a fat kid and experiencing fat phobia, I still have to nurture that, that part of little Virgie too. Like, you know, I think about like the way that I learned fat phobia was that,…

Full show notes at the publisher

Bonus: Some Reflections on a Changing Body Oct 23, 2022

Show notes

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit laurathomas.substack.com

Last week I shared an essay called Some Reflections on a Changing Body which is a piece of my own body story - it’s a story about grief, about growing another human with your body, it’s about all the sneaky ways that diet culture teaches you to be small, and it’s about learning how to take up space and externalise shame. And how children, if we are priv…

07: Sweet Little Lies Oct 21, 2022

Show notes

Welcome to this week’s episode of Can I Have Another Snack? Podcast. This week is a solo episode where I’m reading the essay that I published earlier this week called Sweet Little Lies - it’s a kinda fun, but also kinda serious and sciency look at some really pervasive misconceptions we have around kids and sugar and just trying to set the record straight. I don’t want to call it myth busting because I find that sort of “I’m the expert” dynamic that weaponises science and replicates violent power dynamics to be super problematic. So here’s how I see things - if it resonates with you - cool. If not, just can it. You don’t need to listen to me if you don’t find it helpful. But I hope it can help you relax a little more around sugar (either for yourself or your kids) this Halloween and heading into the holiday season.

Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

No transcript today because the full piece is published here.

I’m super curious to hear what you think about this format (i.e. an audio version of an essay). As I mention in the intro to this podcast, I’m going to be playing around a little with different post types when we wrap up series one of the pod in a few weeks. I’d love your feedback on what you thought of this format and if there’s anything you’d like to see me experiment with in the ‘off-season’ between season 1 and 2 (which will drop in Jan).

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

06: Nourishing the Both/And with Rachel Millner Oct 07, 2022

Show notes

Today I’m talking to Rachel Millner - a psychologist, Certified Eating Disorder Specialist and Supervisor, and a Certified Body Trust® provider. Rachel works with people struggling with all forms of eating disorders and disordered eating and those wanting to break free from diet culture. This episode dives into the stickier, messier parts of anti-diet parenting (which I think we can all relate to!) and Rachel tells us how she is creating a shame and judgment free environment when it comes to food and bodies. She shares some of the places that she sees parents struggle when it comes to supporting their kids' relationship to food: misguided restrictions that can backfire, and parents trying to control kid’s weight so as to protect them from shame (and all the complexity of that). This is such an open and honest conversation where Rachel names all of the complexity and messiness of a lot of these issues and how she owns up to fucking things up and how she repairs when she does, which I really appreciated.Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Rachel here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here’s the transcript in full.Rachel MillnerI always want to ask the question of people of, if you weren't worried about fatness, would you be doing this? Like, if you weren't worried that your kids were gonna be fat, would you actually be focused on kale? Would you actually be trying to avoid feeding them certain foods? And usually the answer is no.Laura ThomasHey, welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Rachel Millner.Rachel is a psychologist, certified eating disorder specialist and supervisor, and a certified body trust provider. Rachel works with people struggling with all forms of eating disorders and disordered eating, and those who want to break free from diet culture.In this episode, we talk all about the stickier, messier parts of anti diet parenting. We talk about how Rachel's twins have really different needs when it comes to food. And how she's creating a shame and judgment free environment when it comes to food and bodies. She shares some of the places that she sees parents struggle when it comes to supporting their kids' relationship to food, misguided restrictions that can backfire, and parents trying to control kids' weights so as to protect them from shame and the complexity of that whole conversation. She also shares her experiences as a fat parent and how she sits with the discomfort of feeling judged by other parents. I really appreciated how Rachel names the complexity and messiness of a lot of these issues and how she owns up to fucking things up and how she repairs when she does.Before we get to Rachel's episode, just a reminder that we're now in October, which means that if you haven't already switched to a paid membership of Can I Have Another Snack then you are missing out on the cool community only features like our weekly discussion threads, snacky bits, and our monthly Dear Laura Column, plus, this month you'll get my Raising Embodied Eaters download. And if you're listening to this on the Friday that it goes out, so that's the 7th of October, there will be a super juicy and personal piece that I have written going out to subscribers only this weekend. So if you've been thinking about becoming a paid subscriber, then now is the time. It's five pounds per month or 50 pounds for the year. And if you can't afford that right now, but you really feel like you'd benefit from this content, then just email hello@laurathomahsphd.co.uk and put snacks in the subject line. No explanation necessary.Just a quick thank you to those of you who have already subscribed. It really means a lot, and I appreciate you putting your belief in this work and helping me make this writing project sustainable.All right, gang, here's Rachel.Laura ThomasAll right, Rachel I would love it if you could share with us who or what are you nourishing right now? Rachel MillnerYeah. My kids, myself, our two dogs, friends, family. It feels like this time of year especially, there's lots around me that need nourishing, which means I also need nourishing. Laura ThomasYeah. It sounds like you've got a full plate of people and animals that, that kind of need attending to, and I'm, I'm curious to hear how you make space for yourself in amongst all of that.Rachel MillnerYeah. It's interesting when you just said that, it made me think also about, between my kids and my animals, how different their needs are. Like I have two kids, two animals, and their needs are wildly different. And how my needs also change from day to day and week to week. And that there are definitely days and weeks that I get lost in the shuffle.You know, I think being socialized female, I'm a single mom by choice. And so, you know, I think that sometimes it's hard to remember that, I need to make sure I'm nourishing myself. And not just with food, but in general, like with connection and with time to zone out and relax and not be having to take care of somebody else.Laura ThomasI hadn't realized that you were a solo parent and that, I mean, just sending you loads of compassion because I find parenting one child with a partner to be a lot. So how old are your kids?Rachel MillnerI have twins and they're 10. Laura ThomasOh twins. I didn't realize that they were twins. Okay. That sounds awesome And terrifying in equal measure.Rachel MillnerThat's a good way to describe it. Laura ThomasAnd I'm so curious. This idea, like what you were saying about the kids and the animals, and sorry if it's really weird to compare your kids with your pets, but I feel like you did say it first, it's fair game. But like what were you thinking of there when you said that their needs were like, wildly different?Rachel MillnerMy kids, even though they're twins could not be more opposite and we, my kids also laugh at how our two dogs sort of mirror and parallel them in personality.And so they're, they need different kinds. I mean, for my kids they need different kinds of parenting. They need different types of food. They need different kinds of boundaries. They need different types of support in school. And. You know, obviously the pets are not in school and that kind of thing, but same, they need different boundaries, they need different ways to like have support in making sure that they are not doing things they're not supposed to do in the house. And yeah. So I think attunement is probably the word that comes to mind when I think about all of their needs and trying to be attuned to, you know, what my kids are needing in any given moment.And also trying to explain to my kids why I may respond to one of them differently than the other. And helping them understand the ways that they're unique and that their needs are different.Laura ThomasHmm. I'm really curious just because this is where my brain defaults to, but when you're talking about they have different needs around food, you're talking about each of the twins, right?Rachel MillnerYes. Laura ThomasRather than the twins vs the dogs right? Rachel MillnerYeah, yeah, the dogs eat the same food. Laura ThomasAnd, and yeah. I'm, I'm just interested to dig into that a little bit more and hear your approach to that Rachel MillnerI have one kid who's a really adventurous eater. He is a kid who will try pretty much anything.It doesn't mean he is gonna like it, but he's usually up for tasting something. And I have another kid who would rather stick with the foods that he knows he likes. He tends to be more like brand specific. So like, he likes pizza, but he likes certain pizzas or, you know, So I think I shared this on social media at one point, but an example of how tuned in he is to what he likes and doesn't like is There's a particular kind of potato chip that he likes and they come in big bags and then they come in like the little snack size bags.Laura ThomasSure. Rachel MillnerAnd so for school, I'm like, Okay, let's, we can get the snack size bags cuz they fit in your lunch box. It's a lot easier. And he's like, No, they taste different. And I'm like, it's literally like the same chip, same brand, same flavor, just one's in a big bag and one's in a smaller bag. And he's like, No, they taste different.So we did a taste test and I put them in like baggies and I didn't label them for him. I put like whole chips in and I knew which was in which baggy, and I did like two bags of each so that he couldn't just get lucky with a guess. Laura ThomasYeah, yeah, yeah. Rachel MillnerAnd sure enough, he got it exactly right. He was like, These are from the big bag and these are from the small bag.I can't tell a difference. I taste these chips. They taste exactly the same to me. But to him, that's how discerning he is with taste and flavor. And so it was really helpful for me to realize that when he says something doesn't taste good to him or that he can tell a difference that he really can tell a difference.And, so it was just a real eye opening experience to see how he could tell the difference between something that like, I think for the vast majority of us, we would eat it and it would taste exactly the same. Laura ThomasYeah. It sounds like he is very sensitive to these minute changes and differences in who knows if it's a, a texture, a flavor, a scent even if, you know, we know that some kids are just very sensory hypersensitive. And it sounds like that's the kind of kiddo you have. Rachel MillnerYes, for sure. He's like that across the board and I don't know why I was able to so clearly see that in other realms and with food, I understood that he had certain foods he liked and other foods that he was like, I don't, I'm not interested in it.And that was fine. I understood that, but I did not, until we did this sort of taste test, have a really deep understanding of how sensitive he was to different tastes and flavors. Laura ThomasAnd it's, it's making me think of a conversation that I have pretty frequently with parents, which is around this idea that, you know, in so many different domains, we trust our kids, we believe them, you know, when they tell us something isn't quite right, we are very attuned to their needs and, you know, really encourage them to be independent and encourage them to use their voice to speak up when something doesn't feel right until it comes to food where we are constantly undermining their instincts. And I don't mean that as a judgment, but just as an observation and, you know, we can trace that back quite clearly to diet culture and usually anti-fat bias.But yeah, I just wondered your thoughts on that. Rachel Millner:Yeah, I see that a lot. And I think absolutely diet, culture, anti-fat bias have an impact. I also think there's, you know, this message to parents that food is something that we are supposed to control in some way. That we are supposed to know some way to feed our kids that is going to allow them to have whatever vision of a relationship with food, which is usually rooted in diet and anti-fat bias.And that we sometimes somehow have control over that. Laura Thomas: Yeah. Rachel MillnerThat if we expose them to certain foods, if we feed them certain things, that somehow that's gonna predict an outcome. Laura ThomasYeah. Yeah. And it's, it's so, it's so pernicious because it goes all the way even to like preconception, pregnancy, this idea that, you know, if you eat fricking kale, that your baby can taste it in the amniotic fluid, which is definitely true.But then the extension of that logic is that, you know, you can program your child to be a perfect eater, which is totally antithetical to the information that we have around food neophobia. And it's also ableist as hell because of what we just talked about, that there are people who are neuro divergent. I, I don't know if that's true for your kid or not. Rachel MillnerIt's neuro divergent. Yeah. Laura ThomasYeah. So, you know, to say that, you know, or to even give parents this false promise that their kids are gonna be, you know, just, mainlining kale and broccoli.It's just so unrealistic. And like I said, ableist because we know that even for, even for neurotypical kids, that a developmental stage that they're most likely going to go through is that food neophobic stage where they pretty much reject everything that isn't beige food. Rachel MillnerYeah. There's such, it's all such bullshit, right?Like there's so many layers of problems with these messages. I mean, just starting with like, I don't know that many pregnant people who really want to eat kale and broccoli. Laura ThomasSeriouslyRachel MillnerWhen I was pregnant, like kale would've been the last thing that I would've wanted to eat. So like these messages to pregnant people that we're supposed to forgo our own cravings and our own desires, because somehow we have this, you know, responsibility to our children, is a problem.The idea that like somehow we're doing a better job if our kids come out wanting kale is a problem. Like, why don't we want our kids to come out, wanting, I don't know, ice cream or some other dessert food, like why are we like elevating kale or you know, whatever over some other food. Laura ThomasAbsolutely. Rachel MillnerYou know? And then like you said, the ableism. And I always want to ask the question of people of, if you weren't worried about fatness, would you be doing this? Like, if you weren't worried that your kids were gonna be fat, would you actually be focused on kale? Would you actually be trying to avoid feeding them certain foods? And usually the answer is no.You know, sometimes people have some of the like healthism that's in there too, but I would say the vast majority of the time, if people are really honest with themselves and able to like dig deeper, the answer to that question is no. Laura ThomasYeah. I love that as a kind of litmus test for, you know, what, what's actually going on.And yeah, as you were speaking there about the, the healthism side of things, I was thinking yeah, but if you peel back that layer underneath that is most likely some anti-fat bias and it, yeah, I think we need to kind of really sit with that and, and what it is that we're afraid of. And what I often encourage parents to do is notice what's coming up for them as well in terms of their relationship with food.Cuz I think that when we have anxieties about what our kids are or aren't eating, it's often a reflection of what might be going on for us in terms of our own relationship with food. What are your thoughts on that? Rachel MillnerYeah, I totally agree with that. I think that's absolutely the case and you see it in a lot of different directions with parents, you know, where either they feel like they've had a disordered relationship with food and they think they're trying to prevent that in their kids, but do it in a misguided way.I've seen a lot for parents who are in larger bodies. Wanting to prevent their kids from being in larger bodies because the parents have experienced weight stigma and know how much pain and shame there can be w…

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05: Nourishing Appetites with Julia Turshen Sep 30, 2022

Show notes

Today I’m super pumped to be speaking with New York Times bestselling cookbook author Julia Turshen. As well as writing cookbooks Julia is the author of the Keep Calm & Cook On Substack and hosts the Keep Calm & Cook On Podcast, both of which I highly recommend. She also hosts these awesome Sunday cook along classes where you can make recipes in real-time with her from the comfort of your own kitchen. This may be my favourite conversation of the series so far. It just feels so wholesome and I know it’s going to be one I keep coming back to and sending my clients to, so I really hope you love it too. Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Julia here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here. Here’s the transcript in full.Julia Turshen I think for so long, I thought having, you know, a large appetite for food or, honestly an appetite for food period. I thought that was not a good thing. And that was something I would spend my whole life working against. You know, I thought I was gonna spend a lifetime trying to diminish my appetite. And then when I kind of zoomed out and I thought about that, I thought, Wow, that's so fucking sad. And I guess my relationship to my appetite or my appetites now is one of just tremendous curiosity. I feel like I've spent so long trying to pretend I don't want things that now I am just so curious about like, what do I want and then finding moments when I want a lot of something or a lot of things like when I have like a large appetite, I am just trying to go towards that with open arms.Laura Thomas Okay, welcome to Can I Have Another Snack podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they are nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter? Today I’m super pumped to be speaking with New York Times bestselling cookbook author Julia Turshen. As well as writing cookbooks Julia is the author of the Keep Calm & Cook On Substack and hosts the Keep Calm & Cook On Podcast, both of which I highly recommend. She also hosts these awesome Sunday cook along classes where you can make recipes in real-time with her from the comfort of your own kitchen, so check them out if you’re looking for some kitchen and recipe inspo. Julia lives in the Hudson Valley in New York State with her spouse Grace and their pets. So as you'll hear, Julia's career started off, much more deeply rooted into wellness and diet culture, which was a reflection of her own difficult relationship with food. We talked about how she got from there to where she is now, which is a badass anti diet advocate who is vocal about anti fat bias in the food industry. And we have this really wonderful delicious conversation about how healing it can be to reclaim appetites both in terms of food and in a more generative and expansive sense. Julia talks about why this has been such a powerful tool as she divest from diet culture, and shares how she deals with those funky body image days. So, this may be my favourite conversation of the series so far. It just feels really wholesome. And I know it's going to be one I keep coming back to and sending my clients to. So I really hope you love it too. And also check out Julia's work, because she's really awesome. Before we get to the episode, I just wanted to give you a quick reminder that this is the last week where all Can I Have Another Snack content will be free. So don't sweat, you'll still get a weekly pod and twice monthly essays from me if you're free subscriber. But from the start of October, I'll be turning on the paid subscriber only features and sending out some posts to paid members only. So this is kind of a scary moment for me. It tells me whether or not this little newsletter and podcast has legs. If people are actually picking up what I'm putting down and whether or not there's a future here. To those of you who have already signed up, thank you so much. It means more than you know. And if you followed my work for a little while now, you'll know that earlier this year, I had to close my business, my entire career trajectory was uprooted. And I had to try and figure out my next moves while also trying to bring a sense of stability back to my family after an absurdly chaotic year. Actually make that two years. Anyone who has ever read one of my Instagram captions will know that I have a lot to say. But aside from my books, writing has never been part of my job. Substack offers this really neat model where I can make writing my job without having to sell out to do sponsored content or exploit my child for likes. He would get a lot of likes, by the way. But I don't want to exploit my baby. While I love my clinical work and I will always see clients I want to make my work accessible to more people. I wanted to really give this my best shot. And that's what this month has been about, to see if there's an appetite for conversations about food, bodies, and anti-diet parenting. So if you're in this for the long haul with me, then let me know by becoming a paid subscriber. There are tonnes of benefits to becoming a paid subscriber over and above the free subscription option. You'll get exclusive commenting privileges and access to our weekly discussion threads on Thursdays called Snacky Bits. You'll also get a monthly downloadable resource like the snacks guide from earlier this month, you'll get access to a column called Dear Laura, where you can submit questions and have a non diet nutritionist in your pocket, you'll get bonus essays and access to all of the archived posts. Plus, you'll get my unwavering affection. It cost five pounds a month, or it's 50 pounds for the year, you can also become a founding member if you're a Can I Have Another Stack stan, where on top of everything I just mentioned, I'll also send you a signed copy of both of my books. I'm suggesting 100 pounds for that tier, but you can name your price, kind of like a donation to help me get this work off the ground. And if you can't afford to support me financially, then you can help spread the word by forwarding your emails to friends who might be interested. Liking posts also helps a lot. And you can rate and review on Apple podcasts. And if you need a comp subscription for any reason whatsoever, then email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with snacks in the subject line and we'll hook you up. You don't need to give an explanation of your situation. I trust that if your circumstances change, you'll do your best to support my work. Alright team. Thank you so much for being here and for supporting my work. Now let's get to this juicy conversation with Julia Turshen. Laura Thomas All right, Julia, I want to know who or what are you nourishing right now?Julia Turshen I love this question so much. I think who or what am I nourishing, the first thing to come to mind is just myself. I think I've been doing a lot of nourishing myself, which feels really important. In addition to that, I would say, just my household, my spouse, Grace, our many animals, the house itself, I think we're just trying to do what we can to keep this a very nourished and safe and happy place.Laura Thomas What does that mean to you, a nourished place? I've never thought of that in terms of like a physical place before.Julia Turshen I mean, we were really lucky. I guess it was, I guess, close to eight years ago, we got to become homeowners, which is, you know, a huge privilege. And something I think about a lot is that a house is, it's also like this living thing. You know, our house, we live in a really old house. And there's, I, you know, I could phrase it a number of ways I could say there's always something broken. Or I could say there's always an opportunity to improve something, I don't know but we're always kind of tinkering and adding things and fixing things and tending to things. So to me a nourished house is one that's kind of just taken care of, you know, just like our bodies, and, you know, anything that's urgent, and broken and kind of dangerous is made safer, you know, and then we get to kind of enhance things too. And, you know, we just cleaned our like couch cushions, which was like the most annoying job but then it just makes our living room feels so nice and kind of fresh. And you know, stuff like that. We do a lot of, I guess just home caretaking. Laura Thomas That was kind of the word that was that popped into my mind was care, just tending and caring to your physical space. And I love the reframe of, you know, rather than things being broken, which I think when you're a homeowner, that's kind of how you tend to view things but flipping it and thinking about okay, what needs sort of a bit more TLC maybe?Julia Turshen Yeah, yeah, I think I have to think about it that way, or I'm very overwhelmed. I'm just trying to manipulate myself, I guess, I don't know.Laura Thomas I think you sort of, you alluded to this a little bit before, when you said that you're nourishing yourself. And I'm not sure if you said you're working on yourself, but it was sort of something to that effect. And this was something that I was going to ask you about, which is, or I suppose just a preface is that you are someone who was on my radar, ages ago, like when I was deep in my wellness culture kind of days. And then you kind of, I think our paths kind of diverted a little bit. And now I feel like you are popping up everywhere. In all my usual haunts, as it were. So I feel like yeah, you're you're back on the radar. I feel weird to compare you with like a submarine.Julia Turshen I'm happy to be a boat. That's great. Yeah.Laura Thomas But um, I would be really interested to hear more about what that arc has been like for you, from your perspective, and like, what's been going on behind the scenes?Julia Turshen Yeah, so it sounds like it. Like the arc from kind of wellness culture to maybe more than like, I don't know, to kind of culture. That arc or path or whatever, for me, has been incredibly personal. And I've also in the last probably, like year or two, something like that. I've made it a bit more, I guess, public slash professional, which those things tend to blend a lot. And my work has always been very personal. And I've always in my cookbooks and my writing about food. It's always been about, you know, what I'm cooking and eating and making for people. And that used to be a lot of things rooted in diet culture, a lot of things rooted in what I've come to understand after many years of therapy was like a decade's long eating disorder. And getting myself out of that, you know, it's changed how, why and what I cook, and how I think about it. So it's changed what I write and what I share and the kinds of conversations I have. And the more I've come to do this sort of healing work for myself, this kind of nourishing work for myself a truly nourishing, figuring out what it is I, you know, want and I'm not just talking about, like, intuitive eating, like, just in life in general. What makes me feel my best and you know, I'm trying to do more of just those things and less than other things, including my work. You know, we were just chatting very briefly before we started recording that I'm not working on any book projects right now, which is all I've done for the last, like 15 years or so, you know, taking myself a little bit further away from sort of like the publishing industry, like just being in touch with all these types of things and doing this sort of more. Yeah, I guess, maybe paying closer attention to what makes me feel good, as opposed to what I think I am supposed to be doing. What I should be doing. That kind of stuff. Yeah, that arc, that path has been both. Yeah, personal. And now a little bit more, I guess, loud. So if I'm maybe reappearing on your radar, yeah, that's interesting for me to hear and to hear where I came up before. And, you know, I think that speaks to probably your journey as well. So yeah, I mean, I could get more into it. I'm happy to but I feel like I'm, I tend to go on slight tangents. And I forget the actual question.Laura Thomas I mean, same. Yeah, I yeah, there were so many, like threads that I wanted to pull on in what you were saying there. And I think the first that struck me was this idea that you had, upon reflection, survived a 10 year long eating disorder. And to me, where my mind went immediately was just thinking about how pervasive and normalised diet culture is, that an eating disorder can just slip under the radar like that.Julia Turshen Yeah, I mean, I have a few thoughts about that. And one is that I think people who aren't in like the smallest of bodies tend to not be diagnosed and tend to not be given care and support. And, you know, I don't it's, it's, it's tricky. I don't know, I don't have like a date on a calendar when I was like, oh, that's when I first developed an eating disorder, it was sort of a, you know, 1000 paper cuts kind of thing, I feel like and you know, very much around just the household and culture I grew up in, which was not very different than most people's, at least, like in the West. And I think that I feel like my, sort of my issues and challenges and mental health issues like around food, and around my weight, I mean, started really, really young. But because I was always in like a slightly, like a little bit of a fat body. I was just constantly told any effort I made to lose weight, to make my body smaller, was a really good thing. And it was rewarded. And it was validated, which went on for more than 10 years, and like for, you know, a huge portion of my life, and that it's just really confusing to be struggling with something and then to get just a lot of validation, a lot of kind of like endorsement for that struggle. That's a very confusing thing. I think that's something a lot of people go through. And I've talked to a lot of fat friends who have really, really similar experiences, and people who are in bodies much larger than mine who deal with a lot more stigma and a lot more hate and who have had raging eating disorders and have never received any help and haven't known how to ask for it, where to ask for it, even how to talk about it. So I think that's kind of a big part of it for me. And yeah, I think the normalising the, like socially accepting way, a lot of eating disorders and just sort of disordered eating just is, you know, it's so pervasive, and I think especially among people who are you know, socialised and conditioned as women, especially among I think like affluent white women, it's, I think it's, it's, it's uncommon to not have that kind of relationship to food. I feel like I've viewed that a lot not to say eating disorders, I mean, they're prevalent among people of all different races and backgrounds and I think appear in different ways. But yeah, I think it's, it's really fascinating to me, how much people are struggling and how little recognition there is of that, and not even just the small amount of recognition but also like the celebrating that happens around that. So you know, back to your like, first question, which is just such a lovely question. Like in terms of who am I nourishing and the fact that my mind went to myself, something I think a lot about now at…

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