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    Business

    ABA Journal Podcasts – Legal Talk Network

    Listen to the ABA Journal Podcasts for analysis and discussion of the latest legal issues and trends. Podcasts include ABA Legal Rebels and ABA Asked and Answered, brought to you by Legal Talk Network.

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    Latest Episodes:
    James Patterson dishes on his new legal thriller, ‘The #1 Lawyer’ | Rebroadcast Aug 06, 2025
    Show notes

    With a new legal thriller on the horizon, we're revisiting James Patterson’s 2024 interview about #1 Lawyer. The bestselling author shares how he builds courtroom suspense and what makes a legal story truly gripping.

    —--

    James Patterson has written bestsellers in many genres. But as he tells the ABA Journal’s Lee Rawles in this episode of The Modern Law Library, he has always been fascinated by legal thrillers, courtroom dramas and crime novels. He even considered becoming a lawyer, before his literary career took off.

    In his newest release, The #1 Lawyer, James Patterson partnered with co-author Nancy Allen to tell the story of Stafford Lee Penney, a criminal defense attorney in Biloxi, Mississippi, who’s never lost a case. But after handing a high-profile murder trial involving the son of a mobster, Penney finds himself on the other side of the bench as a defendant himself, charged with murdering his own wife.

    Patterson has written and co-written more than 300 books, including bestselling series like Alex Cross, Women’s Murder Club and Maximum Ride. He had some writing tips for attorneys, particularly on how to work collaboratively. As Patterson tells listeners in the podcast, he is open about working with other writers on many of his books, and he finds tools like outlining absolutely essential. He also shares with Rawles how he thinks co-writers should handle interpersonal communication while working together.

    Patterson says one of the major benefits of working with co-authors is pulling from their experiences to make his books more accurate and true to life. When he wrote The President is Missing with Bill Clinton, the former president could tell Patterson the inside details of how a Secret Service detail worked. When he wrote Run, Rose, Run with Dolly Parton, she walked him through the production cycle for a song.

    Allen, who conducted more than 30 jury trials as a prosecutor in Missouri and taught law for 15 years at Missouri State University, contributed her firsthand courtroom experience to The #1 Lawyer. Patterson says they worked to make everything as accurate as possible—while still allowing for a good story. It’s the pair’s second book together, following a previous standalone novel, Juror #3.

    In this episode of The Modern Law Library, Patterson shares some of his favorite law-related pop culture picks; news about new and ongoing projects; and describes a very special birthday event with Dolly Parton. He also discusses how his children’s series Maximum Ride got caught up in Florida book bans in 2023. For fans of Patterson’s breakout success, the Alex Cross series launched in 1993 with Along Came a Spider, the author shares updates about what’s next for the intrepid detective—including details about the upcoming Amazon Prime TV series Cross, starring Aldis Hodge.


    3 trial court judges share the tough cases that stuck with them | Rebroadcast Jul 30, 2025
    Show notes

    This month, we're revisiting some standout conversations from our archives. In this episode, three seasoned trial court judges reflect on the cases that have stayed with them throughout their years on the bench.

    -----

    All judges have cases that stick with them and linger in their memories. Sometimes it was because of the high profile of the case, and sometimes an obscure case had personal resonance because of the people or issues involved. In this episode of the Modern Law Library, the ABA Journal’s Lee Rawles speaks with Judges Russell F. Canan, Gregory E. Mize and Frederick H. Weisberg, who all sit on the Superior Court of the District of Columbia. The three judges were contributors to and the editors of “Tough Cases: Judges Tell the Stories of Some of the Hardest Decisions They’ve Ever Made.” Canan, Mize and Weisberg share their own stories, including why Canan’s well-meant gesture to avert an injustice in a gun case still troubles him. Mize explains why a child-custody case haunted him for decades, and what happened when he tracked down the now-grown child as he was deciding whether to write about it for “Tough Cases.” Weisberg talks about dealing with the emotional fallout from overseeing a case where a mother had murdered her four children.


    How agentic artificial intelligence could shake up the legal industry Jul 16, 2025
    Show notes

    For lawyers, artificial intelligence agents could completely change the way that they do their jobs, handling things such as legal research, document creation and managing workflows with little human supervision. But if we’ve learned anything since the dawn of the generative AI revolution, the potential benefits of agentic AI come with risks and possible consequences, as well.



    Try estate law for a practice with work-life balance, says ‘Lifestyle Lawyer Revolution’ author Jul 09, 2025
    Show notes

    Laura Cowan started her career in finance, earning a CPA and working at Ernst & Young and Goldman Sachs. When she decided to go to law school at 35, she knew that she wanted to launch a boutique firm with a practice area that complemented that financial background. Estate law seemed a good fit—but fate threw her a curve ball just as she launched her firm.“I had to turn my entire practice virtual overnight in 2020 in New York City because of COVID,” Cowan tells the ABA Journal’s Lee Rawles in this episode of the Modern Law Library. “I moved to Rhode Island to shelter in place with my dad. During that couple of months that I was sheltering in place, I still had to get my law firm running. I had a business to run and bills to pay. So I made everything virtual, and I really streamlined everything. And what I found was that I could make pretty easily $10,000 a month, working just a couple of hours a day.”

    She has now leveraged the experience of launching an all-virtual estate-planning practice into a coaching program, 2-Hour Lifestyle Lawyer, to help other lawyers launch similar practices. Her new book, Lifestyle Lawyer Revolution: Live a Life You Love (Without Leaving the Law), is full of tips and advice for building a personalized practice to provide work-life balance for attorneys.

    “Now, what we found is that there’s a lot of lawyers who are happy working a lot more than that and are happy earning a lot more, but the name of the business really comes from just this idea that you can still be a really great attorney without working 10 hours a day, and you can make a nice living without working 10 hours a day,” says Cowan.

    A key part of not working too many hours is to hire appropriate assistance, even as a solo just starting out, says Cowan.

    “What I see a lot of is lawyers that spend too much time in the weeds of executing and doing all these different things that an admin could be doing, and not spending enough time doing what the lawyer should be focusing on,” says Cowan. “So they’re both working too much and not making enough money, which is the worst possible combination.”

    Cowan encourages estate attorneys to hold community workshops to help people understand the importance of wills and trusts. She says it’s an excellent way to establish connections that can lead to further business.

    “The real reason that people hire us is because of the connection,” Cowan tells Rawles. “And I firmly believe this. People don’t hire you because you’re the best drafter in the world. They hire you because of the way that you make them feel. So use AI and technology behind the scenes to help you get your work done and deliver a really great client experience, but never forget that it’s going to be that that makes them hire you.”

    In this episode, Cowan also discusses the benefits of value-based pricing versus the billable hour; attracting the client base you want to target; and how to deal with your biggest frenemy: technology.


    Barrister’s new mystery novel offers glimpse inside the Inner Temple Jun 18, 2025
    Show notes

    Since it was seized from the Knights Templar in the 14th century, the Inner Temple in London has housed acolytes of a different sort: men (and eventually women) who serve as advocates of the law. Sally Smith spent her legal career—and now is spending her retirement—inside the 15 acres that comprise the Inner Temple, now one of the four Inns of Court. Smith has previously written non-fiction books about historical crimes and legal figures. When she decided to turn her hand to writing fiction, the familiar setting of the Inner Temple was the perfect setting for her new mystery novel, A Case of Mice and Men. Set in 1901, mere months after the death of Queen Victoria, A Case of Mice and Men introduces a new (and very reluctant) sleuth to the literary scene. Sir Gabriel Ward KC is happiest either when holed up in his Inner Temple lodgings with his books, or when making a compelling case in front of the High Court judges. A solitary, particular and cerebral man, Ward is not looking for excitement beyond the intellectual. But he finds it early one morning when he trips over the body of the Lord Chief Justice of England, which has been left on the doorstep of his professional chambers. The ancient privileges afforded to the Inner Temple mean that no policeman is allowed to enter without permission, and an aghast Ward is told he will conduct the investigation himself or be at risk of being kicked out of his lodgings. Unused to the world outside the Temple walls, or of conversing with any women apart from his old nanny or his mother, Ward must stretch himself to discover who killed Lord Norman Dunning. All the while, Ward is also wrestling with a knotty legal issue involving the rights to a bestselling children’s book, and will need to exercise all his skills on behalf of his client, the publisher of Millie the Temple Church Mouse. Written by a mysterious author, the book has been a runaway success, bringing throngs of children to the Temple Church and spawning toys, games and an American publishing deal. Now that the author has reportedly surfaced and is demanding her share of the money and control of the intellectual property, what will happen to Millie the Temple Church Mouse? In this episode of the Modern Law Library, Smith and the ABA Journal’s Lee Rawles discuss the launch of this new series, which will contain at least three books following Ward’s adventures. Smith describes her own career as a barrister, and why she chose to set the series at the beginning of the Edwardian era. She also discusses the issues of class, gender and the complex world within the walls of the Inner Temple.


    How ethics reforms in Arizona led to LegalZoom's law firm Jun 11, 2025
    Show notes

    When Arizona changed its ethics rules in 2020 opening the door for alternative business structures and nonlawyer ownership for law firms, it sent shock waves throughout the legal industry. Nicole Miller, the chief legal officer of LegalZoom, speaks to the ABA Journal's Victor Li about LegalZoom’s experience in Arizona thus far, as well as general issues relating to regulatory reform and alternative business structures.



    How a Florida murder and an unlikely justice created a ‘criminal procedure revolution’ Jun 04, 2025
    Show notes

    In Chambers v. Florida and the Criminal Justice Revolution, historian and former ABA Journal reporter Richard Brust lifts the veil on a case that laid the groundwork for some much more famous civil rights victories. On May 13, 1933, shopkeeper Robert Darsey was robbed and murdered in Pompano, Florida. Four Black migrant farm workers—Izell Chambers, Walter Woodard, Jack Williamson and Charlie Davis—were seized and pressured by the local sheriff into confessing to the murder under threat of lynching. Their appeals eventually reached the U.S. Supreme Court through the efforts of some dedicated African American attorneys, and succeeded in 1940. In Justice Hugo Black’s written opinion for the majority, the justice drew parallels between the Jim Crow regime in the American South and the rise of authoritarianism and fascism in Europe. Chambers v. Florida forbade the use of psychological coercion—such as threatening to turn prisoners over to lynch mobs—as well as physical abuse to extract confessions. The court’s ruling declared that the protections of the Bill of Rights extended into states’ criminal cases, and began to change the kinds of cases that made it onto the Supreme Court docket.Brust sees it as part of a trio of cases, which includes Moore v. Dempsey (1923) and Brown v. Mississippi (1936), that led to a “criminal procedure revolution,” he tells the ABA Journal’s Lee Rawles. In this episode of The Modern Law Library, Brust discusses the lawyers who worked on the case, most prominently Simuel D. McGill, a Black attorney in Jacksonville. He delves into the generational differences between the Floridian defense lawyers and the attorneys of the NAACP’s Legal Defense Fund who would go on to win key civil rights battles. He explains why Justice Black would have been considered an unlikely author for this opinion. And he shares what he could discover about the fates of Chambers, Woodard, Williamson and Davis after the trial.


    What today’s rainmakers do differently May 21, 2025
    Show notes

    Matthew Dixon, co-founder of DCM Insights, is a researcher who’s spent much of his career studying the shared characteristics and behaviors of successful B2B salespeople. In 2011, he released a study called “The Challenger Sale.” While giving a keynote on his findings at an annual partner retreat, an audience member stood up and challenged him.

    “He said, ‘Dr. Dixon, you’ve been talking for 45 minutes about sales effectiveness and salespeople and selling and sales process, and it’s all very fascinating and I’m sure our clients would be very interested in this,’” Dixon recounts to the ABA Journal’s Lee Rawles in this episode of The Modern Law Library. “‘And after all, we do a lot of consulting around go-to-market strategy. But what maybe you don’t recognize is that we are partners at our firm. We are not salespeople. In fact, there’s not a single salesperson in this audience. I might go so far as to say we don’t sell anything here.’”

    Dixon was taken aback. “What I realized was this world of partnerships, of professional services, of doer-sellers is actually quite a bit different from the world of sales and what we had written and all this research we’d done over the years.”

    In 2022, he tackled this population with the Rainmaker Genome Project, a study that became the basis for The Activator Advantage: What Today’s Rainmakers Do Differently, co-written by Dixon, Rory Channer, Karen Freeman and Ted McKenna.

    The Rainmaker Genome Project surveyed 3,000 partner-level professionals in 41 firms across law, public relations, accounting and investment banking. About 39% of respondents were lawyers. Each received a score for effectiveness in business development and were analyzed for how they provided client services. And it turns out that partner was correct: What makes a lawyer an effective rainmaker is not necessarily what makes a salesperson effective.

    After doing a vector analysis on the data, “what we found was that every one of those 3,000 professionals could be placed into one of five business development profiles,” says Dixon. The five profiles were the expert, the confidant, the debater, the challenger and the activator.

    Dixon stresses that the five categories are not about personality. While personalities are immutable, behaviors can be changed.
    “These are about the things we can all learn to be better at,” says Dixon. “It’s about how we spend our time, how we engage clients, how we use resources, how we collaborate with colleagues—and those are things we can all get better at with the right training, coaching and support from our firms.”

    In this episode, Dixon expands on each type, but the most effective performers in business development were the activators.
    “The reason we chose the term ‘activator’ instead of ‘connector’—people have asked—is that they’re not about collecting business cards and letting them collect dust or just hoarding LinkedIn connections,” Dixon tells Rawles. “What these folks do is try to turn these relationships into paying client relationships. They activate those relationships by proactively bringing new ideas—ways to mitigate risk, make money, save money—to clients.”

    Dixon offers practical advice on how to behave like an activator, including the most effective ways to use LinkedIn. Lawyers and other client-servicing professionals can’t just sit back and wait for business to find them, he warns.

    “Whether we like to admit it or not, clients are less loyal today than they once were,” he says. “They’re less likely to come back automatically to their incumbent provider. No matter how great the relationship or the value you’ve delivered, they’re forcing us to compete in ways we didn’t have to in the past. So activators want a backup plan. They know today’s great client might not be a client tomorrow, no matter what you’ve done. So you need a backup plan.”


    To buy or not to buy? For Cleary Gottlieb, acquiring an AI company was a no-brainer May 14, 2025
    Show notes

    Law firms acquire or merge with one another all the time. But when it comes to technology companies, firms usually keep it in-house or enter into a partnership with an outside vendor. They rarely go ahead and just buy a tech company. So when Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton announced in March that it had acquired artificial intelligence products developers Springbok AI, it made headlines.



    Perplexed about AI? Richard Susskind wants to help May 07, 2025
    Show notes

    For nearly 30 years, Richard Susskind has written books asking lawyers to envision the future of the law and the legal profession in ways that stretch the imagination. Susskind has been one of the foremost proponents of the transformative potential of technology in legal services. Now, he's asking us to imagine larger transformation still: a world in which AI reigns and humanity faces being sidelined.

    Susskind was an early and enthusiastic booster of the development of artificial intelligence, he tells the ABA Journal's Lee Rawles in this episode of the Modern Law Library. He first became enamored of its potential as a law student in the 1980s, and wrote his doctorate at the University of Oxford on AI and the law in 1986. But the speed and direction of recent advances have given him pause. Will AI be a tool for humanity, or its destruction?

    In his new book, How to Think About AI: A Guide for the Perplexed, he hopes to help the layperson navigate the issues raised by artificial intelligence, and provoke a global discussion about the ethical and legal implications. Technology is too important to be left only to the technologists, he says.

    While most people are able to see the promise of AI for professions other than their own, Susskind sees a phenomenon he calls "not-us thinking" when most people are asked if their own work could be taken over by an AI system. Lawyers should be careful not to overestimate clients' attachment to having a human lawyer if their goal is simply to avoid legal pitfalls and they can rely on an AI system to accomplish that.

    In this episode, Susskind discusses the promise of AI for increasing access to justice, and talks about some of the ethical decisions that will have to be made with Rawles, who is more of an AI skeptic.


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