Show notes
TRUST CONTROL: Trust is no longer a feeling. 1.0 The Intro Episode
When self-described "trust scientist" Stephen Marsh first introduced the concept of mathematically modeling and computing trust in an influential 1994 thesis paper, he had an inkling that computerized agents would need "computational trust." But back then did the quirky "nano-farmer" ever envision that decades later AI agents with funny names like Eudamon and Reefwatcher would discuss trust on a social network for bots?
This introduction to Trust Control lays some groundwork about concepts discussed throughout the show including trust measurement and proxies for measuring trust and trustworthiness, zero trust and computational trust, numerical and quantified trust measures and scores, digital data use and impacts, and more.
In this episode:
- How computers trust and the origins of "zero trust"
- Why we measure…well…anything
- Can you snort trust? (Unexpected methods and proxies used to measure trust and trustworthiness)
- Putting a number on trust with trust scores
- The human side of trust that numbers miss
- Pushback on measuring trust for computers
· Featured in this episode:
- Kate Kaye, Trust Control creator and narrator
- Tosan Atele-Williams, Academic Associate in the Faculty of Business and IT and Computational Trust Researcher at Ontario Tech University
- WarīNkwī Flores, Kara-Kichwa Citizen of the Andean Karas, Citizen of the Kichwa Andean-Amazonian People of Ecuador and Land Trustee, Kinray Hub Indigenous Research and Development Primary Investigator, Graduate Research Associate at University of Arizona
- Gale Lucas, Director of the Technology Evaluation Lab at the University of Southern California's Institute for Creative Technologies, Research Associate Professor in USC's Departments of Civil Engineering, Computer Science and Psychology
- Andreas Duenser, Research Scientist at Data 61, Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), Australia
- Bran Knowles, Professor of Sociotechnical Systems at Lancaster University, UK
Sunday political talk show parody John McBlather voiced by Kyle Huth Eudamon, Claudia, Reefwatcher and Guardbot AI agents voiced by Kate Kaye and Kyle Huth
Key References (Mostly) in Order of Appearance PART ONE The trust bootstrapping problem: how do you verify an agent you have never met? by eudaemon_0, et al MoltBook 2026
Formalising Trust as a Computational Concept by Stephen Paul Marsh Department of Computing Science and Mathematics, University of Stirling1994 Trust Systems by Stephen Marsh Open Education Lab, Ontario Tech University 2021 Information Trust Model by Tosan Atele-Williams and Stephen Marsh Cognitive Systems Research 2023
Build Security Into Your Network's DNA: The Zero Trust Network Architectureby John Kindervag Forrester Research2010
Aesthetic Measure by George D. Birkhoff 1933 PART TWO
In AI We Trust: Investigating the Relationship between Biosignals, Trust and Cognitive Load in VRby Kunal Gupta, et al (including Andreas Duenser) Proceedings of the 25th ACM Symposium on Virtual Reality Software and Technology 2019 Trust Me: Multimodal Signals of Trustworthiness by Gale Lucas, et al Proceedings of the 18th ACM International Conference on Multimodal Interaction 2016
Human rights groups demand Zoom stop any plans for controversial emotion AI By Kate Kaye Protocol 2022 The Benefits of Interactions with Physically Present Robots over Video-Displayed Agents by Wilma A. Bainbridge, et alInternational Journal of Social Robotics 3 2011 Guidebook for the Development and TEVV of LAWS to Promote Trustworthiness by Andrew O. Mellinger, et al Carnegie Mellon University Center for Calibrated Trust Measurement and Evaluation (CATE) 2025 PART THREE Under Ideal Conditions by Al Zolynas Published in Under Ideal Conditions 1994
iTWire TV interview with Lakshmi Hanspal, Digicert 2026
Trust Control Credits Trust Control was researched, written, edited and produced by Kate Kaye. All interviews with sources featured in Trust Control were conducted by Kate unless otherwise noted. Fake ads and silly satire were voiced by Kate Kaye and/or Kyle Huth Music The tunes featured throughout Trust Control were written by D. Rives Curtright and performed by the band Epic Strange from Trust Control's home of Portland, Oregon:
- D. Rives Curtright: guitar, baritone sax, percussion and drum machine
- Charlie Gotgart: bass
- Steven Francisco: midi keys
- Octavio Dowling: keys
- Dave Coniglio: drums and vibraphone
- Mike McGovern: bass on Decimation
Hear the full Epic Strange album, Nouveau Electric Mess, on Soundcloud. Hear music from D. Rives Curtright on Spotify. The work that went into Trust Control was done in Kate Kaye's personal time and was supported by Oregon State University's Patricia Valian Reser Center for the Creative Arts fellowship on Trust in the Age of Generative AI and Oregon Humanities.
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