Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are thrilled to recap the end of the fourth season of "You." We touch on topics ranging from ketamine to ideas of reference and - of course! - erotomanic delusions. But mostly we spend time analyzing all of the twists and turns. Do YOU think Joe Goldberg is a psychopath? Listen to hear our take and if it's changed over four seasons. This episode is brought to you by our first sponsor, Therapeutic Bodywork, out of Cape Cod, Massachusetts. Check them out at www.therapeutic-bodywork.com if you need a "calm" box after listening to this episode! We hope you enjoy!
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[00:17] Portia Pendleton: So today we have a sponsor for our kind of wrap up of season four of you.
[00:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: And guys, this isn't a fake sponsor or like our previous fake sponsor. For real? Yeah.
[00:28] Portia Pendleton: So we're really, really excited, really grateful yes. To kind of share with you therapeutic body work. They are kind of a do it all wellness center in the Cape in Massachusetts. They do ship nationally. So I am going to kind of talk about briefly just what we received from them, which is the calm box.
[00:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Perfect for winding down after this episode or finishing season four of you or just like a normal Wednesday.
[01:00] Portia Pendleton: So we received four products in it. They're all kind of to promote calming, relaxing. So one of the first products that I was really excited to get is their magnesium mineral magic cream. So this is something that I have tried before. You basically rub this cream on your wrists or the bottoms of your feet before bed. And the intention is that it's supposed to kind of help you have a restful sleep and also to reduce some of that anticipatory anxiety that you get pre bedtime if you just watched something.
[01:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Stressful looping in your mind.
[01:39] Portia Pendleton: Yes, exactly. So we also received this let me just get it out here. The Sleep Easy Oil, which is again, to promote deep restful sleep. You can put it on different parts of your body. The directions are on it. It's very clear. Head temple, solar plexus, soles of feet for a night of sound sleep. Putting it on 20 minutes before I have not tried this. I'm really looking forward.
[02:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: I can't wait. And those two products pair really nicely with the other things that they were kind enough to send us. A lavender eye pillow, which I might just wear for our whole next episode as we talk about you. But this is the kind of thing where you can either heat it up or keep it cold and you just place it on your eyes and inhale the lavender. I cannot wait for this. I love lavender. And then the last thing they gave us was this awesome tea called Zen AF. Quit freaking out already. Herbal tea to calm stress and anxiety. Has no caffeine, which is great. Has a lot of natural ingredients that have been shown to help soothe anxiety, provide some calm and relaxation. As always, whenever using over the counter supplements, please check in with your provider if you are taking any prescribed medication to make sure there's no drug drug interactions. But overall, I can't wait to try all of these things.
[02:54] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I'm super excited.
[02:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm also just like, how did.
[02:57] Portia Pendleton: You know I needed something calming?
[02:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Well, over therapist. Thank you.
[03:02] Portia Pendleton: Exactly. So they have other boxes that are for sale. Again, they ship nationally so you can get a detox box. Immunity. Calm love. Yeah, that one looks cool and very fitting for you. They are located on cape Cod, Massachusetts, where they do provide in person services.
[03:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like reflexology, acupuncture, massage, body work, really nice things like that. And then I believe they also ship nationwide at no charge.
[03:27] Portia Pendleton: Yes, they ship some nationwide at no extra charge. And you can find all of these boxes for sale at their website, which is therapeutic.com. Again, that's therapeutic.com.
[03:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So check them out. And thank you so much to Therapeuticbodywork for being our first sponsor. I feel like we're in the big league now. Yeah.
[03:51] Portia Pendleton: So grateful.
[03:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: So grateful. Super cool. All right, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Hi, welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. I'm Dr. Katrina Fury, and I am here with my friend and colleague Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker. We are thrilled you're joining us today to dissect the second half of season four of you. There's so much to talk about. So before we dive in, Portia, I just wanted to give you some updates because I don't know if you can believe this. Not only have we gotten our first sponsor, but we've also gone international. Okay, so someone in New Zealand and someone in Canada is listening. Hi, there. Hey, what's up? What time is it there? That's so cool. I have no idea who you are, but thank you. Please feel free to spread widely and send us a DM or an email or something. Introducing yourself. That's so cool. And then I had a couple of thoughts in between the last time we recorded for part One, as we were waiting for part two to be released. The first is, do you know about Anna Delvey? Yes, of course. Right. Doesn't she belong at Sundry House? Oh, yeah. Isn't that, like, what she was trying to do? Right.
[05:12] Portia Pendleton: I feel like she belongs 100%.
[05:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, not just as, like, a scam artist, but that's her kind of place. And then my other thought was, and I can't take full credit for this, my husband kind of had this thought, too. He's been really into watching Yellowstone, which I haven't gotten into yet. Have you? I haven't.
[05:29] Portia Pendleton: I've heard great things.
[05:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it looks really intense. It would probably be a good thing for us to discuss at some point. But anyway, why doesn't Joe find himself in a Yellowstone situation? He always ends up with this new crew. That's the same, right? Like these really wealthy, egotistical narcissistic people. But what if in season five, he's, like, in Yellowstone or something, right? Like in the Wild West with cowboys.
[05:55] Portia Pendleton: Like, I wonder how he'd do that's a good thought. Because it's like he's attracting a type of person or purposely, intentionally bringing them into his circle. I don't know. I don't think he would ever maybe even put himself in that position.
[06:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. I don't think he'd go to Montana to him.
[06:14] Portia Pendleton: Or more unsafe. I know that maybe doesn't make sense, but it's like he doesn't know if he would understand them enough or he wouldn't feel like he could manipulate them or I don't know.
[06:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think you're totally right. It's so funny. He's like this interesting character where on the one hand, he really looks down on the very people he's surrounding himself with almost as a way to make himself feel better. But anyway, that's not where we find joe.
[06:39] Portia Pendleton: No, we don't. We find him kind of back after almost being killed at the estate in the country. So we kind of see him back with all these people. We're like, what's going to happen? Is he going to get in trouble? What's going on with reese? Are him and reese friends? Is reese going to kill him? It's just like, what's going on?
[07:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I do have to say, after we recorded our first episode, without having watched the second part, I was, like, a little down with the first half, right? Because I was like, oh, where's marianne? Where's the cage? Where's the plot? I'm used to what is going on? And this yeah, we both said that. Right? And then this, I was like, all right, you redeemed yourself. Like, very good. A plus. Like this all track. And I was like, whoa, I didn't see a lot of these coming at all. I feel like I was just getting.
[07:31] Portia Pendleton: Like, slapped in the face left and right.
[07:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, whoa, whoa.
[07:35] Portia Pendleton: So we kind of see right away, marianne get on the train again.
[07:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: As soon as we did, I was like, okay, good. We are going to see what happened to mary.
[07:44] Portia Pendleton: They didn't just, like, write her off exactly. But then he says something that's, like, he's really trying to heal his heart after letting her go, and I was like, okay, we talked about this last episode. This does not fit the profile of a psychopath. Does not fit his profile of letting things go.
[07:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: And you had the ingenious idea, and it's like you were on the money, where you're like, something had to have happened to Mary Anne for him to move on.
[08:06] Portia Pendleton: And lo and behold, plot twist of the century. Yeah. So we see kind of joe watching reese. He's at, like, a press conference of his. He's just listening.
[08:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: And at this point, we think that reese is the eat the rich killer and that he's trying to frame joe to sort of make himself look good for catching the real killer as he's trying to become mayor. And remember, we left last time being like, how did reese figure all this stuff out about joe?
[08:40] Portia Pendleton: Right?
[08:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Turns out he did it. Oh, my god. That was the plot twist of the century for me.
[08:46] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So reese, it seems like he wants a friend, and then it seems like he's kind of pressuring joe to kill because all these other people are now, like, a liability.
[08:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[08:56] Portia Pendleton: Like, all these rich people at the sundry house, they know too much. Reese is like, maybe risky sides, and he needs them to die a mayor and great, clean guy.
[09:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And Reese kept basically being like, okay, Joe, this is the last time I need you to do this. Plant Simon's ear on someone. Just anyone. I don't care who it is, but plant it on someone, and I promise that's it. And then you'll be left let out scot free. I can become mayor all as well in the world. And he kept saying, like, we're doing this to do good. We're killing to do good, which I feel like just spoke to Joe's inner views of himself. Yeah, it was fascinating.
[09:41] Portia Pendleton: So he kind of decides to frame Connie at first, and he meets with him, and then Connie appeals right to this ego of Joe that Connie is like, you know, you make me want to change. I'm going to go to rehab. Really just seeing everything, like, you've made me into this better person. And then Joe is, of course, his narcissistic traits being like, oh, I'm helping him so much, and I've impacted his life, so he chooses not to. Connie and again, reminded me of when.
[10:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: We were talking about PTSD back in our shrinking episodes. I think it was episode nine, like the fight, flight freeze or fawn response. This is an example. Connie's not doing it on purpose. Right. He doesn't know Joe's trying to frame him. But of like, that fawn response, which we've seen in the show before, mostly when people are locked in cages and really afraid they're going to die. So, yeah, here it is again.
[10:35] Portia Pendleton: And it seems like that one does really work on Joe. If he feels like it's genuine, it is. Connie wants to make a change. So Reese wants Joe to kill Kate's father or find out what he has on him.
[10:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: That part got a little confusing to me, but it sounds like I was like, oh, is Tom Lockwood running for mayor too? Is that his opponent, or does he have something on him?
[11:02] Portia Pendleton: Or is Reese's, one of his policies, going to damage something of Lockwood's business who's super powerful?
[11:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. So somehow it became like that was Joe's final act of service to Reese, was going to be to kill Tom Lockwood.
[11:19] Portia Pendleton: So he brings him into his office at school, and remember, there's the tarp down on the floor.
[11:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.
[11:24] Portia Pendleton: And I'm just like, this is so obvious, especially, I feel like, in Lockwood's world. And he knows. He calls him Joe, first of all, at that lunch when he takes the bathroom, he knows who Joe is, I believe, and knows what he's capable of. And so he's like, oh, why is there a tarp on the floor? And she's like, oh, you know, there's 3 miles.
[11:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's like, okay. You could give the sense also like, hey, what's up, Greg Canier? Nice to see you.
[11:51] Portia Pendleton: He did a really good job in.
[11:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: This role, but you got the sense, like, Joe felt uncomfortable around him because what he was doing was predictable to Tom Lockwood. Tom Lockwood was like, a step ahead almost every step of the way.
[12:06] Portia Pendleton: And Joe is not used to that.
[12:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's not used to that, and it really throws him off his game. And then I don't know when we start talking about the major twist, but at some point I started wondering, is this happening at all? Like, what parts of this actually happened? What parts of it are delusion that we're kind of seeing play out? Right.
[12:26] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. That's interesting to kind of think, like, hindsight wise.
[12:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.
[12:29] Portia Pendleton: Because Lockwood convinces, at that moment, Joe to kill Reese.
[12:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: Reese. Right. And before we get into that, we have to talk about the blonde lady. Yes. Remember in our last episode, I was like, we were so blonde lady. Like, why do they keep showing her? Is it Reese's? Mom.
[12:49] Portia Pendleton: What does she have to do? Is it someone from Joe's past?
[12:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: My God, Porsche. Can I tell you how titillated I was when that became a whole storyline?
[12:58] Portia Pendleton: I was like, oh, my God. And it was like a Rotomania everywhere. It was all over the headlines. And I was like, from you to you to boop.
[13:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. I was like, this is the you I love.
[13:09] Portia Pendleton: Finally, it's back.
[13:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: So basically, it turned out don who's like this server or waitress as Sundry.
[13:16] Portia Pendleton: Gets hired for that event.
[13:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: For that event. She's been seen in the earlier episodes as, like, a paparazzi photographer. She was in the very first episode following Joe at the art show in.
[13:29] Portia Pendleton: London, which didn't really make sense.
[13:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: That didn't make me quite on there.
[13:32] Portia Pendleton: Because he had not met at that crew. Yeah, that crew.
[13:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[13:37] Portia Pendleton: I don't know. Maybe we're missing something.
[13:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Maybe.
[13:39] Portia Pendleton: I know.
[13:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: I feel like I want to rewatch it now, like, with a fine tooth comb. Kind of like, I'm rewatching Vanderpump rule since the scandal broke. But anyway, so finally it turns out she's like, oh, Lady Phoebe, security is here. Lady Phoebe is, like, in the throes of an acute stress reaction, maybe PTSD, which we'll get into coupled with drug use. Exactly.
[14:03] Portia Pendleton: Everything's elevated. Paranoia and maybe some delusions because of the drug use interacting with her stress reaction.
[14:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. She's probably not sleeping. She looks, like, really troubled and disheveled, and she ends up later on having it sounds like a psychotic break with everything going on. She's making really risky choices, like getting married so quickly, and Kate's really worried about her and tries to get her into treatment, which I thought was, like, a really good plotline. And eventually she does get into treatment, and we see her at the end sort of in a better place, a better frame of mind, but we don't see that yet.
[14:39] Portia Pendleton: So tell me when you me started to feel like dawn was off. So I got a kind of a weird vibe when she wouldn't let Nadia take a picture with Phoebe. And she was like, no, we have to go into the I was just like, something's up, something's up. And I didn't know then that Don was like, the stalker Phoebe, but I thought, Don is something she involved, something she's either going to tell Phoebe all about Joe and then he's going to kill Phoebe. I was like, something's off, something's off. This is weird. What's going to happen?
[15:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.
[15:12] Portia Pendleton: How were you following those couple?
[15:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was kind of the same way. Like, seeing that she was there working, I was like, oh, she is involved. I'm so excited. We're going to see what her role is. I didn't expect what happened. I agreed, like, when she wouldn't let Nadia take a picture, when she was ushering Phoebe to, quote unquote, safety, but all by herself, that seemed off to me. And then when they got to the hotel room and she started talking to her, I was like, oh, my God.
[15:38] Portia Pendleton: Wheels spinning and being like, so scared. Why are we just in here? Even after the lock click, I feel like Phoebe was still kind of like, okay, I'm safe. And then all of a sudden, Don started talking, and Phoebe was like, what?
[15:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she started talking in such a delusional way. And I thought this was a great depiction of a psychotic symptom called ideas of Reference, where she references the pictures that Phoebe has posted on Instagram, remember? And she's like, I knew you were posting that for me and saying that I was your sunshine. And that is a classic symptom of psychosis where people who are in a delusional frame of mind whether it's a one time psychotic break or schizophrenia they can have these ideas of reference where they interpret things in their reality as some sort of special message being sent to them by whoever aliens, God, the person of their erotic obsession. I thought that was actually, like, a really good depiction of that. I got so scared when she took out the knife and was like, where's your tattoo?
[16:45] Portia Pendleton: I know.
[16:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Getting really scared for her.
[16:48] Portia Pendleton: And then Phoebe, which I just thought was kick ***, like, went into this mode where she was like, I'm going to say or do whatever again to figure out how I can get out of here. I'm going to lean into this. I'm going to make all of her dreams come true and hopefully at some point be around people and help.
[17:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly.
[17:10] Portia Pendleton: And we saw that then play out with Joe, like, when he kind of enters the room. Phoebe's like, yeah, at first like, oh, yeah, this is my friend dawn, and Dawn's saying this, and then Joe's getting obviously he heard too, because somehow so.
[17:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Like, Nadia ended up there because she's dating that guy who has a rich, fancy dad or something, so he could get her in there. And then she was so excited to meet Lady Phoebe. And then Nadia saw joe there. And so that's how they're all there. And they kind of figure out Nadia.
[17:38] Portia Pendleton: Is like, she just starts putting all these pieces together. Joe being in all these circles and pieces. That's not the moment that she thinks Joe is bad.
[17:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[17:48] Portia Pendleton: But it's just like, that's interesting that you're here.
[17:51] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. Her wheels kind of start turning too. But then they all work together to find Lady Phoebe. Joe comes in as, again, like, the.
[17:59] Portia Pendleton: Hero of the day.
[18:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I loved this sequence of scenes, again, where Joe's met his match. Right?
[18:05] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.
[18:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: We're like, he someone with erotomanic delusions is talking to Don. A person with erotic delusions. Right. And so I just love when they.
[18:15] Portia Pendleton: Depict and Joe has no awareness of his own, and he's like he's probably thinking that Don is nuts. How could you ever think that? And it's like, you do this.
[18:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: I do this literally. So fascinating to me why I love this show is they do such a good job of like, he can hit the nail on the head but has no insight into himself but, like, enough where he can talk to her in the way, like she needs and somehow eventually disarms her and she gets arrested.
[18:42] Portia Pendleton: And taken away the ear with her.
[18:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Exactly. So now she's framed as the Eat the Rich killer. And again, it's like, what a level of sociopathy and psychopathy right. To be, like, trying to save your friend and thinking about your own motive here in such, like, a heightened emotional state.
[19:03] Portia Pendleton: Oh, my God. This is kind of the storyline that then takes off with Lady Phoebe and her beau. I always get Adam.
[19:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's not spaker. Pratt.
[19:14] Portia Pendleton: Adam Pratt.
[19:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: So Adam Pratt is his fake name? Yeah.
[19:18] Portia Pendleton: The act of character.
[19:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Lucas Cage. Okay.
[19:21] Portia Pendleton: So Adam comes in and is like, oh, of course, Joe, you're saving the day again. And immediately kind of is then trying to get Phoebe. We hear all this backstory of him not having money, and then he takes that bet with that friend about the ring and his car collection. And to me, Adam, until that, just seemed kind of like a dumb rich guy who was just, like, making poorly have any deaths to him.
[19:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Didn't have a lot of death, but Brad, wow.
[19:47] Portia Pendleton: I was like, I hate you. You're a jerk. You're conniving, you are hurtful and just as bad.
[19:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're not killing people, but you're basically, like, killing her.
[19:57] Portia Pendleton: I really was so mad at him, and then he kept coming in between her and Kate. So he kept trying to talk to her about not going through with the wedding, at least having a prena, I.
[20:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Mean, all of these days.
[20:09] Portia Pendleton: And he kept appearing and being like, oh, Kate, how come you keep every time you see Phoebe, she's upset. Like, he's manipulating and gaslighting.
[20:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Just like Joe would do, like, in early seasons, right? Like Peach and Beck again, they try to distance themselves. Like, she tried to break up with Adam over and over and was like, I don't want to be with you, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he just gets her when she's vulnerable and keeps weaseling his way.
[20:33] Portia Pendleton: In and then is doing things like the artist.
[20:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: What?
[20:36] Portia Pendleton: Like he's drugging her? He's, like, making drugs available. He is.
[20:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[20:41] Portia Pendleton: He's making her do all these things, not allowing her to get psychiatric help.
[20:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: He's just doing whatever he can. Like rushing the wedding to get married to her and have access to her money.
[20:52] Portia Pendleton: Starts, like knowing that, but then I think she's such an kind of, like, walk back out of it. And I'm just like, phoebe, you are so powerful. You're the most powerful person here.
[21:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Poor thing. But she is, like, so traumatized after everything that happened.
[21:05] Portia Pendleton: Of course she is paranoid.
[21:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? And then turns out she actually does have a stalker. Not just Joe or maybe Reese or whoever. Yeah, she actually does have this other stalker. So she had all the trauma at the Castle place, all the trauma of being stalked and feeling really uneasy, and then the trauma of the whole thing that happened with Don, her stalker. And she's just, like, distraught. She's abusing drugs and alcohol, which she was doing beforehand anyway, but now that's, like, really escalating. And he just, like, weasels his way in and is doing anything he can to get her to marry him, to take her money, basically. It's awful. Yeah. I was like, would the marriage even be valid?
[21:46] Portia Pendleton: I think if she then a week later was like, what the heck? Or like she was mad because then he spent all her money on all of the other sundry houses. I think that she could get it.
[21:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Annulled, but then she might have lost her money by then. It's so risky. I think she sort of started to realize it when her parents weren't coming.
[22:04] Portia Pendleton: I know.
[22:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like and Kate was.
[22:06] Portia Pendleton: Like, reminding her of, like, this is not the wedding that you've dreamed of your whole life.
[22:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: What are you doing?
[22:10] Portia Pendleton: And she got very upset with Kate, got very defensive. Was probably internally, like, having a really internal with herself.
[22:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. And Kate kept referring to her as being, like, in a manic state. And I think that's, like, a pretty good depiction. I think it's induced by all the substances in the stress. I'm not so sure this is indicative she has a bipolar disorder. But she was probably not sleeping, probably not eating on all sorts of substances, behaving very irrationally, impulsively. Her speech was off, and her thought process was a little disjointed.
[22:48] Portia Pendleton: Her pupils were really and obviously substances, but she just looked like she was off. Right.
[22:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: She was off. Right. So I thought it actually did make a lot of sense when she finally was found wandering. It was so sad when Kate said people took pictures of her and all these things and not helping her. Yeah, just like and I think that unfortunately does happen.
[23:11] Portia Pendleton: We've seen that with celebrities, especially female celebrities, time and time and time and time again.
[23:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know, it's really sad, but then in the end, I was glad that she got help and kind of, like, escaped that world.
[23:22] Portia Pendleton: That was, I think, the only for me, positive thing to come out of this episode season. Yeah, I just wanted to talk about Adam Pratt's demise.
[23:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, I agree.
[23:36] Portia Pendleton: So he is a purveyor of prostitution, and he has, like, a dominatrix kind of coming in to get his needs met, and then it goes really wrong.
[23:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, it does go really wrong. But also, again, such witty writing when as they're, like, tying him to the bedpost, he's like, I'm so relieved my wife is finally getting the help she needs. They've been married for 12 hours, and he's like, I'm so relieved, and, oh, you're making this really tight burp. And then she's like, can we bring in the boys? And he's like.
[24:12] Portia Pendleton: And then he says the safe word over and over again. I can't remember what it was.
[24:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: What was it? It was like butterfly something really silly.
[24:18] Portia Pendleton: And then don't stop. And then we learned that that's all because Kate told her father that she was really worried about Phoebe and so on and so forth. And then Lockwood took care of it for her, and Kate's very upset.
[24:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: That was so manipulative of her dad to be like, well, you know what was going to happen if you talk about it in front of me, it's like, no.
[24:37] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. So you can't say anything about anyone.
[24:40] Dr. Katrina Furey: Apparently going to die.
[24:42] Portia Pendleton: I got an A minus, not an A on this essay. Does that mean that my professor is going to get killed?
[24:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Potentially.
[24:49] Portia Pendleton: Right.
[24:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was kind of confused about why did her dad come into the picture here?
[24:54] Portia Pendleton: Well, we find out. But that he was kind of pursuing her this whole time, or like, she was never free. Right. So he had made all of these internships happen.
[25:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: So kind of like he was stalking her. Oh, my gosh. This show gets so meta by, like, all the layers of he had that.
[25:09] Portia Pendleton: File on her, which she talks about.
[25:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: At the end in the last season.
[25:12] Portia Pendleton: With Joe, where my father knew the person I gave a blow job to, and then my menstrual cycle and all these things. And then when Joe does kill Lockwood, Lockwood's like, you're no better than me, so you're like taking care of her.
[25:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: By doing these things in the same way he was.
[25:31] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. Also, I think Blockwood was trying to not die, but that was just, like a really interesting storyline. But anyway, getting Adam, he was just I was, like, kind of laughing. What do I know?
[25:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I didn't know he was going to die. I thought maybe torture him a little bit or something. Yeah. Or make him sign an annulment paper. I did not expect him to die.
[25:54] Portia Pendleton: I was surprised that it was death.
[25:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: But at that point it was like, okay, this is when everyone dies.
[25:59] Portia Pendleton: You die.
[25:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: Everyone. It's like oprah, like giving out cars. It's like, you die, you die, you die. You know, like at this point in the season, that's how it goes. Twist.
[26:05] Portia Pendleton: Twist. Yeah.
[26:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. Oh my God. I think that brings us to the ultimate twist of all.
[26:17] Portia Pendleton: Oh, my God.
[26:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: My God. So basically, right, we think that Reese is like in on Joe basically manipulating and using Joe's history to his advantage to get Joe to kill these people. So Reese looks good to be mayor. Right. That's what we thought was happening.
[26:32] Portia Pendleton: And then Lockwood comes in and.
[26:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: That he can kill Reese.
[26:37] Portia Pendleton: And that then Lockwood will take care of Joe and give him his identity back.
[26:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: All he's got to do is kill Reese. And then Joe's like, okay. And he was trying to figure out, what does he have on you, Reese? What's going on? And then finally he's going to take Lockwood up on that offer. Right.
[26:52] Portia Pendleton: He goes to Reese's it sounds like his ex wife's country home.
[26:56] Dr. Katrina Furey: And where he sees argument because there was like bad press coming out about his book being fake and all these things, which we kind of predicted, right? Yeah. Joe witnesses the argument and then holy ****, I'm going to let you talk.
[27:12] Portia Pendleton: Because I can't so we see him go up to the door, knock on the door, and Reese again, this seems like I'm not surprised. We see Reese not know him. And I was like, okay, like Reese is just pretending to not know Joe. And then Reese then Joe barges in. And I'm like, okay, it's going to go down. It's going to go down.
[27:30] Dr. Katrina Furey: Still.
[27:30] Portia Pendleton: Nothing's really crossing my mind at that point.
[27:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me either.
[27:34] Portia Pendleton: Yeah. And then we see Reese tied up and nude.
[27:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Basically. I wasn't upset.
[27:41] Portia Pendleton: A little like loincloth.
[27:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he's like beautiful, man. That's fine with me.
[27:47] Portia Pendleton: And Reese is still which I'm like now denying everything. This is weird. Is there a camera here? Does Reese know that someone else is home? So again, he's like playing this role. And then we see Reese walking in the two walking.
[28:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then my first thought was like, oh, God. Not an evil twin story. I was 100% like, I was like, come on, guys. Come on.
[28:13] Portia Pendleton: Really?
[28:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: You're going to go with like that old trope?
[28:18] Portia Pendleton: It was not a twin.
[28:20] Dr. Katrina Furey: Not an evil twin.
[28:21] Portia Pendleton: It was a projection.
[28:22] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. Okay, so it's a projection of Joe's bad side, like the good and evil.
[28:30] Portia Pendleton: You're like watching it and even their clothing, right?
[28:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.
[28:34] Portia Pendleton: Is in this black suit, real suave.
[28:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Charming, like all the everybody. Yeah. He's like really in tune with his sexual urges and who. Cares about other people and just, like, do it, and then, like, real Reese, like, naked views dead. And then you're like, Holy ****. Reese hasn't been real this whole yeah, I said so.
[29:00] Portia Pendleton: I was watching this in my living room. My husband didn't watch it because I had to get through it too fast, and he kept hearing me gasp.
[29:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes.
[29:08] Portia Pendleton: So from this point on, I think I gasped, like, every ten minutes. I was like, what?
[29:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I was like, the show is crazy. I know. All the things we were anticipating, I was not anticipating that, and I loved it. Did you ever see the series Bates Motel from a couple of years back?
[29:26] Portia Pendleton: I haven't.
[29:27] Dr. Katrina Furey: It is so good, and it's kind of similar.
[29:29] Portia Pendleton: Okay.
[29:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I just loved this on your screen projection like depiction of his projection I thought was so good.
[29:40] Portia Pendleton: And it's like he was learning about it while we were you know what I mean? All of this coming out and all of this confusion and all this uncertainty and this shock, it's like we were feeling the same thing that Joe was.
[29:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. And it's like, since when did we identify with Joe feelings? That feels a little icky, but, oh, my God, it was so good. And when they would, like, roll back the footage, so to speak, when he's.
[30:05] Portia Pendleton: Like, oh, no, I can check the.
[30:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Camera because you came over. And then he checks it, and he's.
[30:09] Portia Pendleton: Like, talking to him.
[30:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. I thought it was so good. Portia and also, I think, really in line with the way he'd be unraveling, like, at this point in time. Remember last time we recapped the first part? I was like, he's too it didn't make sense.
[30:26] Portia Pendleton: Marianne didn't make sense. His his healing himself and moving on.
[30:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: And the fact that he had more empathy. It wasn't tracking. Remember we kept saying, like, the wheels are kind of falling off, guys, the writing is not as good. And now I'm like, Holy ****, it's so good.
[30:42] Portia Pendleton: I was like, you set us up, writers.
[30:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God.
[30:45] Portia Pendleton: Applause. Like, round of applause.
[30:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: I would give you an award if I had one. It's so good.
[30:51] Portia Pendleton: Then you're thinking back, right, of the whole first half. And then I loved how they took reese took Joe. Joe took Joe, but Reese took Joe through all of the times that he thought he was there, and he was like, but did I ever did you? Anyone else? Right?
[31:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: And of course, I wanted to go back and rewatch it myself to see and I probably will at some point when I have a little more time. Oh, my God, it was so good.
[31:17] Portia Pendleton: It was so good. Yeah.
[31:19] Dr. Katrina Furey: So good. Angeles.
[31:20] Portia Pendleton: And that, to me, was like, okay, I was 100% right, because obviously, I like being right. Who does this about Marianne? So it's like, Marianne, he did not let go.
[31:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: And that was the thing, right? That's what it was. Where? He kept asking, where's Marianne? Where's Marianne? And real Reese was like, I don't know, Marianne. And he's like, Where is she? Where is she? And he loses it to the point of choking him and killing him. And that tracks, right. With his, erotomatic, delusions and everything and just sort of losing your cool and now you really don't know where she is. Right. And then we get into that whole storyline, which was so fascinating.
[31:56] Portia Pendleton: And Reese won't tell Joe, right? Because he's like, no, you know, you have to figure it out. You have to figure out so I know. Jumping a little bit, but the other moment for me, that was like, was when Joe is in front of the cage with Marianne and he says, I'm not Joe.
[32:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, I know. Because he was like, Reese. Yes, but also you see it in his eyes. Like, his eyes are dead. There's nothing there. I do have to say, when we finally saw the cage again and Mary Ann in it, like, again, I don't want to be putting people in cages. I don't want any part of that. But as a consumer of this type of entertainment, I was thrilled to see it back.
[32:40] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I'm glad we didn't like that.
[32:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was like, Where's the cage?
[32:44] Portia Pendleton: We said, that all part one time.
[32:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, it made me wonder, like, you asked Portia, like, how do you get it there? Can you ship it? Does he have to buy it from someone? How is he putting it together? What is going on?
[32:56] Portia Pendleton: And so Reese, right, was like, from now on, we're going to be referring to Joe's alter ego, Reese.
[33:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Okay.
[33:04] Portia Pendleton: So Reese doesn't care, like you said, about people. So he leaves Marianne starving. Right.
[33:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because he becomes obsessed with Kate.
[33:13] Portia Pendleton: He wants Joe to just move on and be with Kate. Joe, I think this is what's interesting, and I'm curious to get your take, like, the inner Joe that maybe even like the one you feel like you've.
[33:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Always seen, the one Portia you've always seen is desperate.
[33:31] Portia Pendleton: I mean, it's still yes, he has severe issues still. But he would never starve Marianne.
[33:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[33:41] Portia Pendleton: He does sick and twist things as well. But he is so mortified, so horrified that he did this to Marianne.
[33:48] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[33:48] Portia Pendleton: Like, when he's learning that, quote, unquote, reese left her here and he will not let her go.
[33:54] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[33:54] Portia Pendleton: Like, he wants to figure it out. He's going to set the timer. Right. He's trying to figure out a way Joe is to let Marianne go. Well, Reese is like, no, with the passports, or let them go off together.
[34:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right, exactly.
[34:09] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.
[34:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't think he's going to let her go like, she's free. I think he wants to be with.
[34:14] Portia Pendleton: Her and have her move on. And Reese wants her dead. The gun, the pills, he's just like, be done, let's move on.
[34:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. It was such a good depiction of the good versus evil part of Joe and his psyche. And it was so good. There's nothing else to say.
[34:35] Portia Pendleton: Mary Ann, when her face such a good actress.
[34:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God, she is just like, oh. Whoa.
[34:43] Portia Pendleton: Like, when she sees that it's not Joe, she that is happening. Her eyes and she's like, I don't know how to manipulate this anymore. You know what I mean? Like, she fawning isn't going to work.
[34:53] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. Because I don't know who this is anymore. And I thought the way that they talked about what was going on with Mary Anne through the story and the poem with her daughter was, like, really heart wrenching. And then was Nadia getting involved? That was like another twist. Kind of like this stuff with dawn that I didn't see coming. It was a whole other layer to the story.
[35:13] Portia Pendleton: And it was such a good layer to the story.
[35:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right? Because so at first, we have, like, jock my memory portia because so much happened in these five episodes.
[35:22] Portia Pendleton: How did Marion get in the cage, Reese? Joe never let her get on the.
[35:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Train because he drugged her. Coffee. That's what it was.
[35:31] Portia Pendleton: And then he took her to that house. That was weird. And he kept her drugged, feeding her, like she's sitting at the table with him. That's first. And then he drugs her, puts her in the box and takes her to that abandoned building in the cage. And that's her where the cage is. But she fights back in that moment and then hits Joe, hits his head, which is kind of like where so there's two almost like, storylines here or there's two ways to think about it.
[35:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[35:57] Portia Pendleton: It's like, yes, the trauma of the season three and all of that. And obviously Joe's lifelong trauma and brain kind of not working well. And then there's like a head injury. So it's like does the head injury kind of initiate this?
[36:12] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Is that like the last strain to psychosis?
[36:15] Portia Pendleton: Right. Because it's like after that, you kind of see him for a moment, almost like waking up and then kind of starting to change and time slipping. All of the having two really different parts of self being present totally split off.
[36:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And he's been interacting with this Reese Hallucination all this time. And I'm like all the people around.
[36:37] Portia Pendleton: Him notice or maybe they were all.
[36:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Too strung out to pay attention.
[36:40] Portia Pendleton: I wanted to ask you, so you picked up on some erotic tension between Reese and Joe, part one. What do you think about that? Now?
[36:50] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know I thought about that because even when the other Reese came back and there were two Reese's, and I was, like, so confused. So again, I think it wasn't what I thought, where Reese was going to become the love interest, but I do think there's like this erotic code love between the two parts of himself, right?
[37:08] Portia Pendleton: It's both him and he is such.
[37:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: A narcissist that he ultimately loves himself above all. And I think the part that Reese is depicting, the quote, unquote bad parts, are the parts he loves the most. And he can't get away from it, right? Like, he just loves it.
[37:26] Portia Pendleton: And so Penn Bagley directed the second to last episode, which was so good.
[37:34] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I knew we were going to see Love again, remember?
[37:36] Portia Pendleton: And you were really hoping she was.
[37:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Real, but I'm sorry, Portia, she really did die. But I love that we saw Beck again, that we saw Love. And I love that they were, like, leading him to the ultimate, like, where's the key? Where's the key? How do you get to Mary Anne's stuff? And that Love was trying to tell him the only way out is if you kill yourself, right? Yes. And then I was like, Is he going to I never thought he was actually going to.
[38:02] Portia Pendleton: No.
[38:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: I was surprised when he jumped.
[38:04] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, me too. Yeah, that was a twist that I also didn't see coming.
[38:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then when he woke up in the hospital, I was like, he's going to be so upset he was found. Then it's like, are those the ways where his quote unquote good side is like, trying to crawl up and overpower.
[38:21] Portia Pendleton: The bad side because he throws Reese over the bridge first?
[38:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes, exactly. All of that is so good. It's just such good depictions, isn't it?
[38:31] Portia Pendleton: Yeah, I think I was speechless or going, like, for 5 hours.
[38:36] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, exactly. I totally agree.
[38:38] Portia Pendleton: So what kind of stood out we'll get into Nadia in a minute, but what kind of stood out for you as I don't know. Where were your emotions during this? Were you just kind of like, heightened and excited? Were you sad? Were you frustrated? How did you feel? Watching it in disbelief, literally on the.
[38:58] Dr. Katrina Furey: Edge of my seat, just massively consuming it as quickly as possible. Because I just was like, what happens next? What happens next? Really sad with the whole Mary Ann storyline, I think because she has a daughter and we always hoped that would be like the saving grace, remember?
[39:18] Portia Pendleton: Just really seems like she was almost, like, dissociating in a way to help her survive.
[39:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[39:27] Portia Pendleton: Thirsty.
[39:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: And Joe gives her narcotics, right? Because he breaks her arm or something, knowing her history.
[39:33] Portia Pendleton: And I think that's Reese would you think what do you think?
[39:37] Dr. Katrina Furey: Probably, yeah. Wanting her to overdose or die or he's not, like, doing it, like, here's some pain relief because he gave her ibupro.
[39:44] Portia Pendleton: Would have given her ibuprofen or something. Or ibuprofen. You're right. But I thought that was really interesting just to get the full bottle of pills that was so manipulative and calculative and horrible, disgusting.
[39:57] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it was like, are you trying to tempt her to off herself here? And at what point is she going to right.
[40:03] Portia Pendleton: Because he did want her dead.
[40:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[40:05] Portia Pendleton: So I think that kind of tracked, and I think that he was hoping.
[40:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: That that would just be, like, the easy way out.
[40:10] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.
[40:11] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think at some point, you really see her getting so hopeless, and I.
[40:15] Portia Pendleton: Was, like, making all of the little figurines out of the food bag.
[40:21] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. Is that cold? I forget origami origami yeah, but just, like, being so hopeless about just thinking about her daughter, being, like, wondering where she is, if she relapsed again. It just broke my heart, and it was just so sad. It was so sad. And then somehow Nadia finds her.
[40:42] Portia Pendleton: I know, right?
[40:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: Somehow I think after the party, Nadia's wheels start turning, and she starts to be like, why is he the hero every time? And starts to think about the mysteries that he so looks down on and starts piecing it together. And again, I was always like, do we need Nadia? Like, what's the point of this story? And then I loved this storyline because I think at the very end right, just, again, nail in the coffin. He's a psychopath, right? So I want to hear your thoughts, Portia.
[41:10] Portia Pendleton: So we see Nadia kind of pulling some threads together, and then we see that she's in his home and gets the key, right? And then she kind of tracks where he is based on pictures of him and figures out and just tries that empty, abandoned building, goes in, then comes across the cage.
[41:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. With Mary. Can you imagine? What do you do when you come across a poor woman starving in the cage?
[41:35] Portia Pendleton: You want to go to the police? But Marianne is like, no, you cannot. I will still somehow end up here again.
[41:42] Dr. Katrina Furey: And she's raped. Yes, we've seen this happen. He is so scary.
[41:46] Portia Pendleton: Danger so has powerful friends at this point, and I think that he is just, like, the master manipulator to get out of situations. So Marianne knows that. So she and Nadia kind of come up with a couple plans, like plan.
[41:59] Dr. Katrina Furey: A and plan B, and that's where.
[42:00] Portia Pendleton: We see more of Nadia's boyfriend kind of enter the storyline.
[42:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: And again, she just, like, uses him for guys.
[42:08] Portia Pendleton: He seems really cute and sweet to me. I really like him. And then I'm obviously really sad at the end. So Nadia asks him to get her.
[42:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Drug, So Ketamine, which, again, you can use it as, like, a date rape kind of drug. You can also abuse it as, like, a party drug, and it does have some antidepressant properties, which are being explored now in clinical trials in certain centers. But, yeah, she was trying to get that and then a knife, because Marianne wanted the knife. I think she wanted to kill drove herself. And she was so close. She was so close, right? Nadia was so close. And then she got stuck on, like, trying to get on the subway, everything fell out of her back.
[42:49] Portia Pendleton: That Nadia was down there. Right. She was down there talking to Marianne. And Joe comes.
[42:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: My heart was racing. And then Marian's like, there's something over there. I thought, he's going to pick up that there is something going on, and maybe somewhere he did. Right. I don't know. But then eventually so that plan gets.
[43:09] Portia Pendleton: Foiled because Nadia can't get out of the police station soon enough because they find her bag.
[43:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[43:15] Portia Pendleton: She goes through the turntable turnstile thing, and her bag gets caught, and they see the syringe. So she finally kind of gets bailed out. Her boyfriend is there or I guess it's not technically her boyfriend, a boy who wants to be her boyfriend is there.
[43:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Also interesting because she's a brown girl in England getting detained, and then her white boyfriend can kind of get her off. Right. So I think that's interesting. Yeah.
[43:40] Portia Pendleton: So I definitely was thinking that there's no way that Marianne died when she collapsed in the cage. I was like, okay, I think there's probably something else going on here. We did not know about the planet. Yeah. I don't know why I feel like I actually knew what happened because I had some sense of what was going to happen with Nadia and Marianne and, like, Marianne dying in the cage. I was like, there's no way she's dead. She's no way she's dead. So back to Nadia's kind of plan A and plan B. It sounded like plan A was to get him, shoot him with the ketamine so he's, like, can't move or passed out. And then Marianne would stab him or kill him, and he would be dead.
[44:28] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[44:28] Portia Pendleton: And then plan B we never hear until we then kind of see it. So it sounds like plan B was that Marianne would take propranolol, a beta.
[44:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Blocker, which does slow down your heart rate, used for high blood pressure, things like that. We also use it for performance anxiety. So, like, oh, I get nervous giving a speech. You could take some perennial as long as we can tolerate it, like, 30 minutes before. And they did a good job with that, too, saying, like, well, again, how does Nadia know how to titrate? I don't know.
[44:56] Portia Pendleton: And I think she didn't because she was afraid it was a crazy idea that you could die from. I think the rest of the give.
[45:04] Dr. Katrina Furey: Her enough to slow down her heart rate so Joe doesn't know that she's still alive.
[45:09] Portia Pendleton: And then she shot Marianne in the park bench with, I'm assuming, some kind of like an adrenaline. Yeah, probably to kind of wake her back up. That whole series of events was wild, and I think we really saw a lot of it after it had already happened, like the flashback.
[45:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Because, you see, Mary Anne is with her daughter, and she's reading that news article about Joe and so angry about it. Right.
[45:34] Portia Pendleton: And then you're like, oh, she survives. Hooray. Were you so upset? Because I was when Joe uses Marianne's phone to text the person her daughter is staying with, and she's like, we're done. You have no more custody. It's over. And then Marianne again, when you don't know that this is all planned and it's really Nadia answering the text right. That this is when Marianne falls apart. This is why she overdoses and dies.
[46:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: For sure. I thought she did it for sure. I was like, okay, so now that's going to happen. How do you she's hopeless.
[46:09] Portia Pendleton: The only thing that's been keeping her alive is the hope of reuniting with her daughter.
[46:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And just again, you imagine the shame in her daughter knowing this about her and then knowing this happened again when you promised you'd come back and now you're stuck in a cage, starving to death. At some point I was like, she's going to overdose. It right there. What else are you going to do?
[46:28] Portia Pendleton: Or just to take some of the pain. I think it would have been so easy for her to just start with one pill.
[46:38] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.
[46:38] Portia Pendleton: I mean, I was so happy that Marianne is alive.
[46:41] Dr. Katrina Furey: Me too. But now still worry for her.
[46:44] Portia Pendleton: Upset about Nadia.
[46:46] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my God. So then it's like, you think it can't get any worse, right. I thought that was Nadia's storyline, like, helping to get Marianne out, right?
[46:54] Portia Pendleton: Yep.
[46:55] Dr. Katrina Furey: And then it's like Nadia and her boyfriend really want to get Joe caught, and rightfully so, bearing witness to all the destruction. Joe is like now with Kate.
[47:06] Portia Pendleton: And after the suicide attempt.
[47:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, after the suicide attempt. And they both sort of tell each other like, they've done these horrible things, people have died. I don't think Kate is getting it.
[47:17] Portia Pendleton: And they're going to think they're good. I think Kate believes that Joe has killed maybe lovely and just that kind of storyline, because that was national news, people were aware of it. And I think he comes clean about that and maybe having a really horrible childhood and trauma. I think that's what he discloses.
[47:35] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think she's probably like, well, but love was like, crazy, so I can see where you had to kind of exactly.
[47:43] Portia Pendleton: I don't think he disclosed that he's the rich killer, you know what I mean?
[47:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, no.
[47:47] Portia Pendleton: So and then I think that Kate does have a lot of shame and guilt about the cancer trial patients dying that her dad kind of talked to about and that she talked about. And I think she is afraid of herself having a lot of power like.
[48:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: That she sees that part of her dad in her. And I was surprised when she revealed, like, no, I did that and intentionally. It wasn't like I didn't realize what I was doing. I did it.
[48:12] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.
[48:13] Dr. Katrina Furey: So they both have that power hungry sociopathic nature. So in that way, they are a good match. For each other. Right. And I'm, like, terrified.
[48:23] Portia Pendleton: I know that now they're like, with all of these resources, all of these.
[48:26] Dr. Katrina Furey: Resources, all of this power, but they're.
[48:28] Portia Pendleton: Going to keep each other good. Yeah, sure.
[48:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: We've seen how that goes.
[48:32] Portia Pendleton: We've seen how Joe immediately does not stay good because he kills Nadia's Beau and then frames Nadia, offers her the money. So that's how you know that he's already with Kate, because he's like, I have all these resources now. And there's like, kind of a moment of him being like, what? You work all these three jobs. I could offer you to this. But then she sees, oh, my God, portia on the ground. And it's like I think Joe just then knows that he can't let her get away.
[49:02] Dr. Katrina Furey: I think he planned this whole thing. Oh, my God. Yes. Portia god, he's a psychopath. Portia there is no shred of empathy. I think he somehow knew they were in his place, probably. And then right, she's like, having her boyfriend be, like, the lookout, and then she's trying to find him at the car. She can't find him. She turns around. There's Joe. So cool, calm, collected. He seems, like, less psychotic now. He seems like both of his parts are now one. Those parts have his self have combined against he's fully mentally there. And then you see him talking to her, offering her the money. She's terrified. She's backing up. I think the whole time he knew he was going to frame her. He had that knife somewhere. He was, like, walking her back to show her her boyfriend, who he killed. And then he hands her the knife. I know.
[49:57] Portia Pendleton: What is she going to do? She knows she's done. But I was just like, don't take.
[50:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: I don't even think she knew what he was handing her.
[50:03] Portia Pendleton: No, because he handed it to her kind of like back end, like handle first, almost.
[50:07] Dr. Katrina Furey: And it was, like, covered in a cloth. I don't remember what he said he was going to hand her. Obviously, it wasn't the weapon, but then she's holding it now. Her fingerprints are all over it. And the way he spoke to her was chilling.
[50:20] Portia Pendleton: I know. It made me so chilling him.
[50:24] Dr. Katrina Furey: You haven't yet.
[50:28] Portia Pendleton: I hated him in this season the most part, too, so I feel like a lot of the stuff that he did, he really held out hope.
[50:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: Portia a long time.
[50:40] Portia Pendleton: I don't even know if it was hope. I think it's just one of those things that's, like, you you understand why people are the way they are. That doesn't mean that they're they're what they've done is good.
[50:49] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right.
[50:49] Portia Pendleton: It's not an excuse, but like, I feel like the explanation for his behavior just made me be like, oh, like, a lot of people watch all of these kinds of shows and somehow align with the villain. So I felt like I was kind of on that train but then I was like, no, you should die. You should be lethal injection. I hate you. There's no rehabilitation.
[51:10] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.
[51:12] Portia Pendleton: Nadia to me sealed the deal. Like, you're done 100%.
[51:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: I totally agree. And it was like, again, the show did such a good job with the Reese of it all, like, depicting these two parts of himself, him really losing touch with reality, like really unraveling. Then he's back, right. And now he has all this money, all this power. I loved when they showed him looking out the window and you see Reese's reflection and I'm just like, oh, my God, I'm so scared. And when they were doing those interviews, they so reminded me of Meghan Markle and Prince Harry doing interviews. Not that I think there's any similarities in any way. I don't think of that. But it was just weird that they're doing all these interviews and he was, like, making a coffee for her and schmoozing and so performative, which is what.
[51:59] Portia Pendleton: I get from Megan and Harry performance.
[52:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah.
[52:03] Portia Pendleton: It's not a mental disorder or anything like that. I just feel like it's very performative.
[52:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. Putting on the show and I'm just, like, really terrified for him. And I feel so bad for Nadia.
[52:15] Portia Pendleton: She is in jail forever and he.
[52:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: Said that she hasn't spoken a word. Probably because she's so traumatized and who's going to believe her? Again, a young brown girl compared to this white man I know with this redemption story and like, oh, my God. I don't know if it's been renewed yet for season five. I thought it was. And then I googled it after all this and it says, like, it hasn't been they're not sure if it'll come back. I hope so. I know.
[52:44] Portia Pendleton: I feel like there's such an easy and I'm not saying like, I have a storyline in my head, but I feel like there's such an easy, like, so many directions to go with this.
[52:52] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yes. And it's like, who's going to finally take down Joe? Is anyone? Can you take him down?
[52:59] Portia Pendleton: And is that how it ends or does not? Or does it end here where it's like no, people like this do exist. People like this absolutely do get won over on other people. I'm not going to say win, but are fine, like, compared to Nadia, that they get some horrible illness that takes them out at some point because sometimes that's like the karmic end. But there's people like this who do exist who are horrible and who do horrible things and there's no check for them. There's no checks and balances.
[53:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. And then to see I was glad Marianne made it out alive. I feel so sad for Nadia. I feel so sad for her. I know.
[53:38] Portia Pendleton: Because she risked her life knowingly this whole time that she was trying to save Marian for this person that she didn't know, which is just like, a wonderful thing and really believed her. Right. Away and I was like, I'm going to get you out of here. I don't care how dangerous it is that this is wrong. And then now she is framed different from not Dr. Nikki because Dr. Nikki did terrible things.
[54:01] Dr. Katrina Furey: Right. But she hasn't done a terrible thing as far as we know. Oh, it would be so cool if, like, somehow Nadia Marianne teamed up and took him down somehow.
[54:10] Portia Pendleton: Let me ask you this, okay? If you're going to ask me what.
[54:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: Kind of treatment I would give Joe Goldberg, I will just death.
[54:17] Portia Pendleton: No, sorry. Maybe that's a little, you know, not very therapeutic, but that's just how it is. I don't regret what I said. So I don't think that Joe without and I think there was always Reese in his head just because there's always that part. But obviously Reese came out more. I don't think that Joe when Joe's.
[54:47] Dr. Katrina Furey: Joe would have framed Nadia nadia. Oh, I totally think so.
[54:53] Portia Pendleton: You do? She doesn't fit his but she's gone.
[55:03] Dr. Katrina Furey: In jail.
[55:05] Portia Pendleton: But she's not free.
[55:06] Dr. Katrina Furey: Ellie's not in jail, but she's not free.
[55:08] Portia Pendleton: I know, but same thing. But that's what I mean. I feel like that's where I'm like I'm a little bit I think that this is now because Reese is now getting bigger.
[55:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Okay.
[55:23] Portia Pendleton: I don't think it's like empathy or anything like that.
[55:25] Dr. Katrina Furey: I just think that it's like because.
[55:27] Portia Pendleton: Reese is now kind of showing stronger and stronger, joe is leaning in to that real, authentic I'm just this person and now I can get away with anything. I think that that's why he can do that he did that I'm on board with. I don't know, just threatened her and was like, I'm keeping the knife forever in your fingerprints.
[55:45] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I think that's why we thought he was just going to give her the money and let her go like he did with Ellie and stuff. I can see that. I think he is unraveling and that part of him is growing and taking over and like, please come back for season five. I want more.
[56:02] Portia Pendleton: I know what happens. You don't have to do love scenes.
[56:05] Dr. Katrina Furey: But, like, please bring back the cage.
[56:07] Portia Pendleton: Oh, and okay, obviously the you writers, producers, whoever, are t swift fans because another song.
[56:14] Dr. Katrina Furey: I know. I wanted to mention that, too.
[56:16] Portia Pendleton: And it was like the perfect one they picked, right?
[56:18] Dr. Katrina Furey: My covert narcissism disguises altruism. It's so perfect. Oh, my God. So perfect.
[56:27] Portia Pendleton: Like, Joe, you are the problems.
[56:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Another Taylor Smith. I loved that touch, too. And I thought of you immediately. It was so good. I'm so sad it's over. I know. But I do think it's a nice segue into the next series we're going to be talking about, which is succession.
[56:42] Portia Pendleton: Yes.
[56:43] Dr. Katrina Furey: I had no idea what's sort of going to end up with Joe and Kate teaming up and being these, like, business tycoons, but I have a feeling succession is going to. Have some similar dark and twisty themes.
[56:54] Portia Pendleton: And people do have maybe are already up to date on Succession. I know that season four is what's coming out this spring, so neither of us have seen Succession at all. I think we both first watched the first episode so far of season one.
[57:08] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, that's right, guys, we are super professional. You're going to watch all of it to recap for you. Can you believe we have so much.
[57:15] Portia Pendleton: They'Re definitely I'm getting like, similar vibes.
[57:17] Dr. Katrina Furey: But I will say I feel like.
[57:19] Portia Pendleton: Succession and I won't spend a lot of time talking about this, but I feel like Succession is going to be like just dark and one of those shows that I probably shouldn't watch right.
[57:29] Dr. Katrina Furey: Before I go to bed because he's.
[57:30] Portia Pendleton: Thinking about it a lot.
[57:31] Dr. Katrina Furey: Use your stuff from Therapeutic Body Work to unwind because I think it's almost.
[57:36] Portia Pendleton: Just going to be a little bit of like a mind because it's about.
[57:39] Dr. Katrina Furey: A parent, his kids. I feel like they're all going to be ******** each other over, but that always makes me so sad when it's a parenting, your kids and you pick that up right away and just like.
[57:49] Portia Pendleton: People with too much money, too much power and power doing horrible things and not being checked for it. That's just like the vibe. And I'm sure I think that's just what the show is about.
[58:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah, we have no idea because we haven't seen it before, but that's the vibe we're getting.
[58:05] Portia Pendleton: So back to you. It sounds like Joe has nationally come.
[58:09] Dr. Katrina Furey: Out about internationally in Europe come out.
[58:13] Portia Pendleton: That he has survived.
[58:15] Dr. Katrina Furey: And I'm like, how did they spend that?
[58:17] Portia Pendleton: I don't know. Money and media and a PR team can do magical things.
[58:23] Dr. Katrina Furey: Oh, my gosh. Raquel from Phantom Pump rules needs his PR team.
[58:27] Portia Pendleton: Well, I was going to say Haley Bieber needs his PR team. Selena, haley of it all.
[58:33] Dr. Katrina Furey: Yeah. The eyebrows scandal heard around the world.
[58:37] Portia Pendleton: Also, we'd love a PR team, so if anyone wants to be our PR and marketing team, feel free to reach out.
[58:44] Dr. Katrina Furey: All right, well, thank you all very much for listening in. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe. Please share our show with loved ones near and far. It's doing really well so far, but we'd love to reach even more people.
[58:59] Portia Pendleton: Yeah.
[59:00] Dr. Katrina Furey: So visit us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts, email us at Analyze Scriptspodcast@gmail.com and visit our website, www.analyzcripts.com and we'll see you next time. Thanks.
[59:10] Portia Pendleton: Bye.
[59:16] Dr. Katrina Furey: This podcast and its contents are a copyright of analyzed scripts. All rights reserved. Any redistribution or reproduction of part or all of the contents in any form is prohibited. Unless you want to share it with your friends and rate, review and subscribe, that's fine. All stories and characters discussed are fictional in nature. No identification with actual persons, living or deceased places, buildings or products is intended or should be inferred. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The podcast and its contents do not constitute professional mental health or medical advice. Listeners might consider consulting a mental health provider if they need assistance with any mental health problems or concerns. As always, please call 911 or go directly to your nearest emergency room for any psychiatric emergencies. Thanks for listening and see you next time our sand close.
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