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**Unsettled**

Unsettled is a podcast about Israel-Palestine and the Jewish diaspora. We’re here to provide a space for the difficult conversations and diverse viewpoints that are all too rare in institutional American Jewish communities.

Latest Episodes:

Leena D..jpg — **Jerusalem: Leena Dallasheh** Dec 22, 2017
Show notes

So if you want to really learn what Jerusalem is and what happens here, come here and go to both sides. Come here and talk to Palestinians.
— Leena Dallasheh
This is the sixth installment of a special miniseries responding to the U.S. President's decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

For this episode, Unsettled producer Emily Bell interviewed Leena Dallasheh, assistant professor of history at Humboldt State University. They spoke about what East Jerusalem is like for its Palestinian population and the stark differences between East and West Jerusalem.

This episode was recorded on December 19, 2017 and edited by Ilana Levinson. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig.

_Note: At 4:30, Leena Dallasheh says synagogue when referring to the site at Mamilla Cemetery. She intended to say cemetery in this instance. _

**Leena Dallasheh** is an assistant professor of history at Humboldt State University. She received her PhD in the joint History and Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies program at NYU. Her work focuses on the social and political history of Nazareth from 1940 to 1966, tracing how Palestinians who remained in Israel in 1948 negotiated their incorporation in the state, affirming their rights as citizens and their identity as Palestinian. She has published serval articles and book chapters, including “Troubled Waters: Governing Water and Struggling for Citizenship in Nazareth,” which appeared in IJMES 47 (2015). Before coming to NYU, she received a law degree from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Dallasheh is currently in Jerusalem for six months, working on her book manuscript, “Contested Citizenship: Nazareth’s Palestinians in the Transition from British Mandate to Israel.” The project is a communal biography of the Palestinian Arab city of Nazareth from 1940 to 1966, telling the story of this Palestinian community as it lived through the Nakba (the “Catastrophe”) of 1948. Through this, it presents a history of the early encounter between Palestinians who became citizens of Israel in 1948 and the Israeli state. The research during this period is supported by a fellowship from PARC-NEH/FPIRI.

Jerusalem: Dov Waxman Dec 11, 2017

Show notes

I think most American Jews are probably not aware of the simple fact that when they think of visiting the Western Wall, for example, they think of entering the Old City, they’re actually entering what is officially, according to international law, East Jerusalem. And therefore, according to international law, occupied territory.

— Dov Waxman

This is the fourth installment of a special miniseries responding to the U.S. President's decision last week to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

For this episode, Unsettled producer Ilana Levinson interviewed Dov Waxman, professor of Political Science, International Affairs, and Israel Studies at Northeastern University, and author of Trouble in the Tribe: The American Jewish Conflict over Israel (2016). They spoke about fissures in the American Jewish community and why Jerusalem, in particular, elicits such a polarized response.

This episode was recorded on December 7, 2017 and edited by Max Freedman. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig.

Dov Waxman Headshot.jpg

Dov Waxman is Professor of Political Science, International Affairs, and Israel Studies, and the Stotsky Professor of Jewish Historical and Cultural Studies atNortheastern University. He is also the co-director of the university’s Middle East Center. His research focuses on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israeli foreign policy, U.S.-Israel relations, and American Jewry’s relationship with Israel. He has been a visiting fellow at Tel Aviv University, Bar-Ilan University, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and Oxford University. He is the author of three books: The Pursuit of Peace and the Crisis of Israeli Identity: Defending / Defining the Nation (2006), Israel’s Palestinians: The Conflict Within (2011), and Trouble in the Tribe: The American Jewish Conflict over Israel (2016).

**Jerusalem: #StopTheMove** Dec 10, 2017
Show notes

I am a proud American Jew. I’ve been part of this community my entire life. I went to Jewish day schools for 13 years. I cannot stand what the occupation is doing to my community, and I’m not willing to put up with it anymore. And my community needs to make a choice.
— Eliana Fishman
This is the third installment of a special miniseries responding to the U.S. President's decision this week to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

For this episode, Unsettled producer Max Freedman attended a protest by the Jewish anti-occupation movement IfNotNow at the New York City offices of Senator Chuck Schumer.

This episode was recorded on December 7, 2017 and edited by Max Freedman.

VOICES

**Eliana Fishman** is a graduate student at Columbia University studying Quantitative Methods in the Social Sciences. She is a member of IfNotNow.

**Stephen Lurie** is a researcher and writer in Brooklyn.

**Anna Blachman** is a healthcare consultant raised in the Boston area and based in New York City. She has lived in Peru, London, and Thailand, where she worked in public health and pursued biological research. Anna first got involved with anti-occupation work while at Pomona College and has been organizing with IfNotNow since 2016.

REFERENCES

AJC Survey of American Jewish Opinion 2017

Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI)

**Jerusalem: Rani Al-Hindi** Dec 08, 2017
Show notes

Today, it’s a new event. Part of the same pattern. But we will still resist, as we have always resisted. And this declaration means nothing to us, just as all the other declarations and all the other events meant nothing to us.
— Rani Al-Hindi
This is the second installment of a special miniseries responding to the U.S. President's decision this week to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

For this episode, Unsettled producer Yoshi Fields attended a Palestinian-led protest at Hunter College, just hours after Trump's announcement. He interviewed Rani Al-Hindi, one of the organizers of the protest.

This episode was recorded on December 6, 2017 and edited by Max Freedman. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig.

**Rani Al-Hindi** is a Palestinian-American, currently a senior at CUNY Hunter College and the co-founder of both the Palestine Solidarity Alliance of Hunter College and the Apartheid Divest at CUNY campaign. His grandparents are from al-Qubab and Deir Ayoub, in '48 Palestine.

Shira Robinson.jpeg — **Jerusalem: Shira Robinson** Dec 07, 2017
Show notes

What is new is that Trump is putting people on notice...that he’s happy to flout international conventions, and he is no longer concerned with continuing this charade of U.S. support for some kind of political negotiation to end the Arab-Israeli conflict.
— Shira Robinson
On Wednesday, December 6th, the President of the United States formally recognized Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel -- breaking with more than sixty years of official U.S. policy. Why did this happen? What does it mean? And what might happen next?

In response to the urgency of this moment, Unsettled is trying something new: a miniseries. For the next few days, we’ll bring you short episodes featuring experts and activists, each with a different perspective on the new status of Jerusalem.

For the first installment, producer Ilana Levinson spoke to Shira Robinson, Associate Professor of History and International Affairs at the George Washington University.

This episode of Unsettled is hosted by Ilana Levinson. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig. Recorded on December 6, 2017 and edited for length and clarity by Max Freedman.

**Shira Robinson** is Associate Professor of History and International Affairs at the George Washington University, where she teaches the history of the modern Middle East. Her first book, *Citizen Strangers: Palestinians and the Birth of Israel's Liberal Settler State*, examines Israel's imposition of military rule on the Palestinian Arabs who remained within its borders after 1948.

Cultural Resistance Dec 04, 2017

Show notes

Culture is the only human practice that can actually dig into the root of a trauma and try to undo it in the first place. And this is why people are so afraid of culture, and in particular theatre. ‘Cause when there’s a human being in front of you having an experience, it’s very difficult to ignore them. It’s hard to ignore a play. — Dan Fishback Dan Fishback and Motaz Malhees both made waves in the New York theater scene this fall with plays about Palestine. Motaz performed with the Freedom Theatre of Jenin in "The Siege," at the NYU Skirball Center. Meanwhile, Dan's play "Rubble Rubble" was abruptly and controversially cancelled by the American Jewish Historical Society. In this joint interview, Dan and Motaz talk about their work, and explain why culture is their weapon of choice against the injustices of the occupation. This episode of Unsettled is hosted by Max Freedman. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig. Recorded at The 'cast Sound Lab in Brooklyn, New York on November 6, 2017. Edited for length and clarity by Ilana Levinson. Photo credit: Sammy Tunis Dan Fishback is a playwright, performer, musician, and director of the Helix Queer Performance Network. His musical “The Material World” was called one of the Top Ten Plays of 2012 by Time Out New York. His play “You Will Experience Silence” was called “sassier and more fun than 'Angels in America'” by the Village Voice. Also a performing songwriter, Fishback has released several albums and toured Europe and North America, both solo and with his band Cheese On Bread. Other theater works include “Waiting for Barbara” (New Museum, 2013), “thirtynothing” (Dixon Place, 2011) and “No Direction Homo” (P.S. 122, 2006). As director of the Helix Queer Performance Network, Fishback curates and organizes a range of festivals, workshops and public events, including the annual series, “La MaMa’s Squirts.” Fishback has received grants for his theater work from the Franklin Furnace Fund (2010) and the Six Points Fellowship for Emerging Jewish Artists (2007-2009). He has been a resident artist at Kelly Writers House at the University of Pennsylvania, the Hemispheric Institute at NYU, the Kimmel Harding Nelson Center, Yaddo, the MacDowell Colony, and BAX/Brooklyn Arts Exchange, where he has developed all of his theater work since 2010. Fishback is a proud member of the Jewish Voice for Peace Artist Council. He is currently developing two new musicals, “Rubble Rubble” and “Water Signs,” and will release a new album by Cheese On Bread in 2018. Motaz Malhees is a Palestinian actor born in 1992. He received his professional training in Stanislavsky, Brecht and Shakespeare at The Freedom Theatre in Jenin Refugee Camp (Palestine), and in Commedia dell’Arte at Theatre Hotel Courage in Amsterdam (Holland). Motaz has trained with internationally acclaimed directors such as Juliano Mer-Khamis and Nabil Al-Raee (The Freedom Theatre), Di Trevis (Royal Shakespeare Company), Thomas Ostermeier (Schaubühne Theatre), and Katrien van Beurden (Theatre Hotel Courage). His stage credits with The Freedom Theatre include: “Alice in Wonderland” (2011), “What Else – Sho Kman?” (2011), Pinter’s “The Caretaker” (2012), “Freaky Boy” (2012), “Courage, Ouda, Courage” (2013), “Suicide Note from Palestine” (2014), “Power/Poison” (2014), and most recently “The Siege” at the NYU Skirball Center. Motaz has also acted in films, including: “Think Out of the Box” (2014, dir. Mohammad Dasoqe), which screened in Palestine, Germany and Mexico; and “Past Tense Continuous” (2014, dir. Dima Hourani). As a versatile actor, Motaz has performed in multilingual plays as well as in scripted, devised, physical, epic and fantasy theatre. Motaz also produces and performs in short films about social issues in Palestine, which have received a wide following on social media platforms. Having grown up in Palestine, and experienced the economic and political hardships of life under occupation, Motaz has been actively interested in acting since he was nine years old. He lives through theatre, and believes in the potential of art to transform people’s ideas and lives. REFERENCES "Arna's Children" (dir. Juliano Mer-Khamis, 2004) "The Life and Death of Juliano Mer-Khamis" (Adam Shatz, London Review of Books, November 2013) "Center for Jewish History Chief Comes Under Fierce Attack By Right-Wingers" (Josh Nathan-Kazis, Forward, September 6, 2017) "Jewish Center Faces Backlash After Canceling Play Criticized as Anti-Israel" (Jennifer Schuessler, New York Times_, _October 11, 2017) Program note by Oskar Eustis for "The Siege" at NYU Skirball Center (October 2017) Indiegogo campaign for Dan Fishback's "Rubble Rubble" "Return to Palestine"(The Freedom Theatre, 2016) in Arabic without subtitles Theatre of the Oppressed NYC Housing Works "All Your Sisters" (Cheese On Bread, 2017) danfishback.com @motazmalhees thefreedomtheatre.org TRANSCRIPT DAN: So many people warned me against making work like this. And yeah, I got canceled, but in the process, I have tremendously powerful friends now that I didn't make before. MOTAZ: Doesn't it make you stronger after they cancel it? DAN: Yeah, of course. Yeah. MOTAZ: Didn't it make you more like want to do it? DAN: Oh, yeah. MOTAZ: That's a good thing, then. [MUSIC: Unsettled theme by Nat Rosenzweig] MAX: Welcome to Unsettled. My name is Max Freedman, I’m one of the producers of Unsettled and your host for today’s episode. Now when I’m not working on this podcast, I’m a theater artist, and I know how hard it can be to make a life in the theater and get your work out there. However hard you think it is, imagine you’re trying to tell stories about the occupied West Bank. Enter Dan Fishback and Motaz Malhees. Dan and Motaz both made waves in the New York theater scene this fall with plays about Palestine. Motaz was in New York performing with the Freedom Theatre of Jenin in “The Siege,” a play about the Israeli siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, during the Second Intifada. Dan, on the other hand, made waves because of a play that didn’t happen, rather than one that did. His play, “Rubble Rubble,” was supposed to go up at the American Jewish Historical Society, but they cancelled it. I’ll let him tell you why -- and what happened next. Dan and Motaz didn’t know each other before, but I had the privilege to get them in the same room to talk about their work and as you’ll hear, they had a lot in common. In preparation for this interview, I dug through years of old journals and found my entry from the day I first met Motaz, when I was in Jenin, three summers ago. Really big and underlined a few times, I had written two words: CULTURAL RESISTANCE. So that’s our theme for today. Quick note: besides the three of us, at one point you’ll hear the voice of my co-producer Ilana Levinson. I think that’s all you need to know, so, let’s get started! MAX: Welcome to Unsettled. Uh, why don't you start by introducing yourselves? MOTAZ: Eh, first of all I am so happy to be here with you guys that's before I introduce myself. I am Motaz Malhees, so I am an actor from Palestine, I used to work with the Freedom Theatre since 2010. I do a lot of politics theatre but also the same time I do also for community, I do like for kids show. But I feel like, whatever needs, I give, like...it’s not important the type of theatre I do. But nowadays I'm freelance, and I work like with all theatres in Palestine, my country, because I don't want to be just involved with one place -- even that's I always say that the Freedom Theatre, that's my place and my home. DAN: I’m Dan Fishback, I’m a...I make performance and music and theatre in New York, I’ve been here since 2003 -- I don't know, what do you want to know? MAX: Where’d you grow up? DAN: Oh my gosh! I grew up in a pretty normal American Reform Jewish family, outside Washington, DC in Maryland. In a family that...was essentially a liberal Zionist family, although I don't think they would have necessary articulated themselves like that, they just imagine themselves being normal. And I heard growing up, “If only the Palestinians were nonviolent, then they would get what they want. Because they're asking for something reasonable, but it's because they're violent that things are problem....that that's the reason why there's a problem.” And like, the older people around me as I was growing up were always saying, “If only there was a Palestinian Gandhi” -- that was like the refrain, over and over again. And now I find myself 36 years old, going back to my communities and being like, “There’s this huge non-violent Palestinian movement! And it’s international and we can be part of it, it’s boycott, and blah blah blah.” And everyone’s like, “Oh no, no no, this makes us uncomfortable too.” I'm like, “This is what you were begging for my whole childhood! And now it’s here! Why aren’t you excited? Why aren't you as excited as I am?” That’s where I’m from. MOTAZ: That’s cool. DAN: And it’s an honor to be here with Motaz, whose performance in “The Siege” was absolutely amazing. MOTAZ: We not sure, but there is like people who really want to bring it back to the U.S. again, because it was a really successful show like for the Skirball Theatre, even like they almost sold out. MAX: Let me back you up a second, because, I want you to imagine that I have never heard of “The Siege,” have never heard of the Freedom Theatre. Can you tell me -- tell me what it was, tell me what it is. MOTAZ: “The Siege” it's a story about the invasion happened in 2002 in Palestine. There was like eh...invasion for the whole West Bank: in Jenin, in Nablus, all the cities. Like, one of them was Bethlehem, and in Bethlehem there was like a group of fighters, freedom fighters, who fight and defend back from their homeland. They have like many guns defending themselves, and they have in the other side -- the Israeli side -- there is tanks, Apache, Jeeps, all kind of guns you can imagine your life, heavy guns. And they were like around 45 fighters, 250, 245 civilian -- priests, nuns, children, women, and men, from both different religions -- who’s like stuck inside the Nativity Church for 39 days. With the like first five days they have food, after that they have no food. And they surrounded with around 60,000 soldiers from the Israeli army. They want, like, to finish it. So they, they have pressure, they don't wanna -- even the fighters, says khalas, it’s enough. Their people are suffering, their families are suffering outside because of that. So, they sent them like a paper, they have to write their names, the number of their IDs they have, and their signature. So, the fighters sign on it, and they know that's thirteen going to Europe and twenty-five are going to Gaza. They don't know even where they going. So, they sent them to exile the same day. DAN: When my friends and I were leaving the theatre, all we were talking about is, we were so curious about what their lives would be like after fifteen years of exile and we couldn’t wrap our minds around it. MOTAZ: I know one of them is personally, and he told me a lot about it. And it’s really important to bring this piece because of one reason: they didn't choose. Even they signed the paper that say they have to go to exile, but like they was under pressure, and they thought it's temporary and that they would return. And eh, I know how much they are really broken from inside. They never show this to people.But from inside, if you know them personally, they are really broken, and they just...all they want, just to see like at least their families. Some of them, they can’t. Their family, like they can't get the visa to go to visit them -- like, for example, the two guys, Rami Kamel, and Jihadi Jaara who living in Dublin, they haven't seen their families at all. One of them, like Jihadi he have a son that's his wife give birth like after one week he was sent to exile. He didn't even touch his son, he's fifteen years old, like...at least, like, okay, you don't want to send him back to Palestine. Let his family visit him! Like, this is the minimum of humanity. And eh...a really important point we have like always to say: those people was in their homeland, they was in their own city, and they fight back. They didn't went to...yeah, to Tel Aviv to fight, or to somewhere inside Israel, to fight the people over there. They was fighting the…defending themselves from the Israeli army. MAX: How did you get started with the Freedom Theatre? MOTAZ: Woo hoo! Since I was like, eh…fourteen I heard about it, or thirteen -- and I was dreaming about to be in there cause I’m, since like eight, nine, I start doing acting. It's like something I really love from inside, like I really really want to be an actor. Not because like I wanted a name. Because I can hold the stories, I can share stories for all over the world, I enjoy it, it's something beautiful and strong in the same time. So when I was sixteen, I heard about the hip-hop workshop, dance hip-hop workshop in the Freedom Theatre. So I went there and I apply for it, and I get involved with the workshop, and the last few days Juliano just came and he said, “We open a new class for theatre.” MAX: Juliano, who Motaz just mentioned, is Juliano Mer Khamis, who started what is today, the Freedom Theatre. Real quick, I want to tell you the remarkable story of the Freedom Theatre of Jenin. During the First Intifada, Juliano’s mother, a Jewish Israeli Communist named Arna Mer, came to Jenin, where she helped to establish housing and educational programs for children in the refugee camp there -- and eventually a children’s theatre called The Stone. Arna died of cancer in 1995, and during the Second Intifada, the Stone Theatre was destroyed. Arna’s son Juliano returned to Jenin for the first time since his mother’s death in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Jenin, and made an incredible film called "Arna’s Children" -- Motaz will tell you more about this in a bit, but it’s on YouTube and I highly recommend it. It was after finishing this film that Juliano returned again to Jenin to found the Freedom Theatre. In 2011, Juliano was assassinated, but the Freedom Theatre has persisted. Alright -- back to Motaz. MOTAZ: So I get involved and I put myself in that place since 2010. And it’s been like around...now, now you could say like eight years almost. It is...hard and eh, good in the same time. It is, ‘cause you face emotion, a lot of different emotion. But I love it. It's like, it’s become my home now. I’m always there. Even if I have nothing, I go pass by drinking coffee there like, chill, see what's going on, if they need help or something, because I'm part of the family. MAX: Well we met because I went to visit the Freedom Theatre. And you were just hanging around and we sat there and talked for an hour. MOTAZ: Yeah yeah. MAX: Alright, so, Dan. DAN: Yeah. MAX: Tell me about your work and particularly tell me about “Rubble Rubble” and the genesis of that project. MOTAZ: I wanna hear about it. DAN: Well I've been working for the past decade on a trilogy of plays that sort of explore the inner life of the Jewish left in the United States over the past century. And this last play, “Rubble Rubble,” which I've been developing for the past few years, starts in the West Bank in an Israeli settlement. And you find this family that I've been writing plays about -- which is a very far leftist socialist radical family -- you see that that family has split off, and there's like a right-wing side of the family that has become settlers. And the left-wing anti-Zionist member of their family trav…

Full show notes at the publisher

Sulaiman Khatib Nov 06, 2017

Show notes

Sulaiman Khatib is a co-founder and the current Managing Director of Combatants for Peace, a joint Israeli-Palestinian nonviolent movement to end the occupation of the West Bank. In this interview, Souli explains how he began to see Israelis as potential partners, rather than the enemy. He talks about the value of ex-combatants in the struggle to end the occupation, and addresses some of the the criticism that his organization has received from other activist groups. This episode of Unsettled is hosted by Asaf Calderon. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig. Recorded in Brooklyn, New York on August 6, 2017, and edited for length and clarity by Asaf Calderon and Yoshi Fields. Sulaiman Khatib is a leading nonviolence activist in Israel and Palestine. He was born in the West Bank and was imprisoned at the age of 14 for stabbing two Israeli soldiers. It was during his time in prison that he learned about nonviolent resistance and first encountered Jewish Israeli perspectives. In 2006, he and other Israeli and Palestinian ex-militants founded Combatants for Peace: a grassroots nonviolent movement with the goal of ending the occupation. As part of his work, he tours in the US, giving talks with other ex-combatants on nonviolent resistance to the occupation. TRANSCRIPT SOULI: I believe that if our people given like a good leadership with a vision that carry nonviolence and hope, I do believe that many Palestinians are happy to join. This takes time and energy. But I believe the majority of our people don’t want to live in bloody situation, of course. And if the Israelis given the opportunity to show their goodness of solidarity with the Palestinians to struggle together, I really believe also I have faith of the majority of the Israelis in this case also, they will behave differently. _ ASAF: Welcome to_ Unsettled_, a podcast about Israel-Palestine and the Jewish diaspora. We are here to provide a space for difficult conversations and diverse viewpoints that are all too rare in American Jewish communities._ My name is Asaf Calderon. I'm one of the producers of Unsettled and your host for today's episode. Sulaiman Khatib, today's guest, grew up with his family in the West Bank under the Israeli occupation. At the age of 14, while trying to steal weapons, he stabbed two Israeli soldiers. Both soldiers survived, and Souli was sentenced by the military court to 15 years in prison. Fast forward 30 years -- today, Souli is a co-founder and Managing Director of Combatants for Peace, an organization founded by ex-combatants from the Israeli military and the Palestinian armed resistance. They are dedicated to ending the occupation, using only nonviolent means. How did Souli transform from a fighter who saw Israelis as the enemy, to a nonviolent activist committed to working in partnership with them? Why create an organization specifically with ex-militants? And how does he respond to the criticism he gets even from other anti-occupation activists? With these questions in mind, I interviewed Souli while he was visiting the United States to work on his upcoming book. We met in his rented room in Brooklyn, on a Sunday -- so of course, you’re going to hear some background music. Sorry about that. Another thing you may notice, is that we both have pretty strong accents. What you are about to hear is an Israeli interviewing a Palestinian, in English, which of course isn’t either of our first languages. So if you're having trouble understanding, please check out the transcript of this episode on our website, unsettledpod.com. ASAF: So Souli, let’s start by you introducing yourself. SOULI: My name is Sulaiman Khatib, so, people call me Souli -- some people -- and I was born in a village near Jerusalem, 10 minutes from Jerusalem, called Hizma. I grew up there, half of the time, and then I was in jail for a long time. I was one of the people that thought that the only way for freedom was joining the armed struggle. That was my mind when I was 14. _ **ASAF: ** Like other Palestinian prisoners, Souli faced particularly difficult conditions in prison. In his bio for Combatants for Peace, he explains: The use of torture was routine: beating prisoners, spraying tear gas into prison cells, and violently stripping prisoners were daily occurrences._ But, it was in these difficult conditions that Souli learned how nonviolent struggle can make a difference. With no civil rights and with their most basic human rights severely limited, Souli and the other prisoners resorted to hunger strikes. SOULI: The prisoners were very organized, very smart, and represent all the factions in jail through committees that were elected, so we asked, for example, our demands were around having like water -- like in Hebron jail, we used to have a problem of water, especially like to clean ourselves, you know for showers -- to have access to books, education, and newspapers to bring them, and visiting our families -- it used to be half an hour, we demanded like 45 minutes. _ **ASAF: ** The striking prisoners also had support from activists outside the prison walls._ SOULI: In the first few days, we used to communicate with the youth organizations, and universities, and so we were sure that people support us outside, so we don’t reach the point where we die or something, because this was not our goal. We had the hunger strike to live a little better conditions while we were in jail. And that’s how I learned there is another path. There is another way. I did read about Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela that was in jail at that time, and I was inspired by, you know, like all these people. We do study about Che Guevara and the Vietnam War, and the guerrilla wars. So, it’s not: you go to jail, you come out as a new Palestinian Gandhi. It’s not that way, the truth. So I don’t really represent the mainstream prisoners. _ **ASAF: ** Not only did Souli learn about other nonviolent movements, but he also began to explore Jewish narratives which he had never before heard. He recalled watching the Holocaust film_ Schindler’s List_ one day while he was in prison._ **SOULI: ** During the film, we turned the light off, and then we watched the film --through the film, you can see that everybody is really moved. This was really the effect on our hearts, if you wish, because everyone was crying. And after the film, it's really a complex feeling, because we have to ask hot water to make tea from the Israeli police that his maybe ancestors were there, that we feel sympathy with them, and he’s putting us in jail. Through the time I also read the history of the conflict from both eyes. I studied Hebrew also in jail and that made me realize there’s no either us or them. So I became beyond the typical narrative, and I became open for meeting Israelis after jail, and looking for partners on both sides to create a new narrative and new story for our peoples. _ **ASAF: ** In 2003, during the second Palestinian Intifada -- or uprising -- a group of Israeli reserve soldiers, from elite combat units, decided to refuse serving in the occupied territories, so as to not contribute to the occupation. Soon after going public, the Israeli group was contacted by a Palestinian group of ex-prisoners. Souli, who was recently released from prison, was one of them. They started a series of internal talks, that eventually led to the creation of Combatants for Peace in 2006. The details of the formation of Combatants for Peace are presented in a documentary about them that came out last year,_ Disturbing the Peace_._ **SOULI: ** Everything in Combatants For Peace is based on certain principles, that’s very important to say: that’s joint and nonviolent and bi-national work, and opposing the occupation and slash violence. We are a grassroots organization that have nine local groups and working “twins” -- for example, Tel Aviv-Ramallah, Hebron-Be’er Sheva, Jerusalem-Jericho, Jerusalem-Beit Lechem and so on. And there’s above all also two bi-national groups, which is the woman group of Combatants for Peace that established last year, and the Theater of the Oppressed. Some of the activities are under the local groups -- from dialogue to personal story sharing to nonviolence demonstrations as well. And there is activities on the movement level, like the Palestinian-Israeli Memorial Day -- this is the highest activity every year -- the freedom marches, and we were also part of the initiative of the Freedom Sumud Camp. ASAF: In Israel, we often hear the term “prisoners with blood on their hands.” Israelis are much less willing to work with and cooperate with people that have done what we call “terrorist activity.” Whatever it was, against soldiers or against citizens, this term “blood on their hands” is something that rings very powerfully in Israeli discourse. What do you think about it, as somebody that, you know, does have blood on your hands? Do you think that... why do you think that Israelis should be working with you? **SOULI: ** Firstly, all the terminologies, the language... it really exists more or less the same on both sides, that’s one thing, and it really depends where you came from and how you look at things, eh… I attacked two Israelis when I was 14, believing, "This is our enemy, I want to protect my homeland." So these kind of people, like myself, used to be like our good guys, that sacrifice for the homeland. It reminds me for Israeli discourse, when Israelis used violence before 48, for example, or the pre-Israeli organizations -- Etzel, Haganah, and all that -- were heroes. _ ASAF: The Etzel and the Haganah were Jewish paramilitary organizations that worked before 1948 for the establishment of the Jewish state. Both used terrorism to promote their goals; for example, the King David Hotel bombing in which 91 people were killed, mostly civilians. But of course Souli is right: in Israel, most people consider them to be heroes. _ **SOULI: ** If we go ahead in the list of around the world, same thing in the Irish conflict and Mandela party, and everywhere else. It’s like two sides of the coin: the one called terrorist by Israelis mainly called hero by Palestinians, generally speaking. I’m generalizing now because there are many opinions. There's no one Israeli opinion or one Palestinian opinion. It’s a question of narratives, and how we see things. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard. You know, like you can always find like more soft stories to work with, in both sides, people that never been in jail or the army or any involvement, but I think this community is very crucial, important, and we know that from Mandela story, he was in jail. And from North Ireland -- we work with Irish organizations that both sides were also involved in violence and were in jail, and they worked together and we work with them to learn from their experience and this is very exceptional role for ex-fighters to play. **ASAF: ** And on the other side, how do you feel about working with people that have Palestinian blood on their hands, and why do you think it’s important to work with them? SOULI: Yeah, it’s basically really the same question. First, I admit this is heavy and hard for people on both sides and I understand that, and if I remember the first few meetings of Combatants for Peace, we did meet people that have Palestinian blood on their hands -- much more than us, because they used to be in the Israeli Air Force, like pilots, and F16. Obviously, the Israelis never went to the court, or any legal thing. In the Palestinian case you got your punishment, or like over-punishing, because you are living under military rule. So let’s say my case: what I did, if it was Israeli person did the same, would go to rehabilitation center. I was 14. But I am not citizen of anywhere, so I go to military court. So basically, not to legitimize any violence of course, but to say we do have to see the human behind these terms, and in the case of Israelis I... this is heavy but somehow we reach the point to see the human behind the uniform. This take long time, it’s a very deep hard process to see, to look in the eyes of these people and meet somewhere on some level. ASAF: Many people in the Palestinian struggle and also in solidarity movements in the United States see the kind of work that you do as the term "normalization" with Israel, and they see that as wrong. What do you have to answer to that? SOULI: Firstly, we got a lot of criticism in both sides. And I am really fine with that, I have to say. I understand why many people worry and criticize the joint work. But I believe in my experience -- in our experience from Combatants for Peace and other organizations -- the meetings of the other, what's so-called the other, is essential. I don't know also any Israeli that born and, you know, came directly from Tel Aviv to Bil’in. Firstly, they meet Palestinians and to trust and to build relations, and then they became like more activist. That's the one I know the majority of the Israelis that really show solidarity with the Palestinians. And -- we are not normalizing the occupation. We do a lot of activities to fight the status quo, and we are not happy with the status quo. Of course, it's controversial, always, to work with what's so-called the enemy. I personally don't think there is one way to end the conflict, or the occupation, whatever you want to say. But we are not part of the BDS movement, we have a neutral position about the BDS. This is a nonviolence legitimate tool, but we are not there. We are a bi-national organization, and I am not going to boycott my partner Chen Alon, that is teaching in Tel Aviv. He is very active to our cause together, and his daughter was just left the jail recently. And I am struggling for her, as for my sister. So I can't think in the principle of boycotting them. _ **ASAF: ** Chen Alon is one of the Israeli founders of Combatants for Peace. Tamar Alon, his daughter, was one of a handful of Israeli youth who publicly refused to serve in the military for ideological reasons. While many Israeli members of Combatants for Peace don’t serve anymore, the organization doesn’t call for complete refusal._ **ASAF: ** In the movie, I remember that one of the Israeli Combatants for Peace activists, she says she's serving, she's still serving in the army in reserves, but she is not serving in the West Bank. But, I mean obviously the role that she does outside of the West Bank is affecting the army as a whole. So, how… how can you accept that? SOULI: I’m talking like as like formally Combatants For Peace. In general, when we started Combatants for Peace, was a clear condition that Israelis don’t serve beyond the 1967 borders. And on the Palestinian side you don’t, you can’t join Combatants for Peace if you support violence, for example. So there is a refusing in both sides to the mainstream. We work in Israel-Palestine: means we are also pragmatic, means we do thousands of lectures -- last year we met around 4,000 people at lectures. It’s all joint, always there are two speakers -- one Israeli, one Palestinian -- we share our personal stories of the narrative and the transformation and this always inspire people. We find this tool as very deep impact, and we don’t tell the people what to do, especially talking to youngsters, Israeli pre-army mechinot. _ **ASAF: ** A mechina, or mechinot in plural, is a program that some Israelis go to before the army, where you study and volunteer in the community._ **SOULI: ** So in order to, to play in this space we need to be also careful with the language we use, or to tell them what to do exactly, but I believe that this model stay in the head of many of the youngsters as the only meeting maybe they ever meet a Palestinian before the army, before they go to the army. **ASAF: ** Another thing that I noticed in the film is that you use a language of equivalency. A few…

Full show notes at the publisher

**Sarah Brammer-Shlay** Oct 09, 2017
Show notes

Sarah Brammer-Shlay is a first-year rabbinical student at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in Philadelphia and a founding member of IfNotNow.

In this interview, Sarah explains how she went from feeling like a "bad Jew" for thinking critically about Israel, to directly confronting the violence of the occupation. As a radical rabbi-to-be, she reflects on the High Holidays, and shares her vision for the Jewish community she hopes to lead.

This episode of Unsettled is hosted by Emily Bell. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig. Recorded in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on September 16, 2017, and edited for length and clarity.

**Sarah Brammer-Shlay** currently lives in Philadelphia, PA and is in her first year of rabbinical school at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College. Although originally from Minneapolis, Sarah spent the last five years living and working in Washington, D.C. Sarah was a founding member of IfNotNow in 2014 and has remained a leader in the movement with a focus on strategy and action. She also has been both a participant and a trip leader with Center for Jewish Nonviolence delegations in Palestine. She has worked on a variety of justice issues including labor, abortion access, animal rights and marriage equality.

REFERENCES

Reconstructionist Rabbinical College

IfNotNow

J Street

"Boys Drawn to Gaza Beach, and Into Center of Mideast Strife" by Anne Barnard (The New York Times, July 16 2014)

Center for Jewish Nonviolence

"Israeli cops assault American Jewish activists in Jerusalem Day protest" by Natasha Roth (+972, May 24 2017)

"Israeli Police Broke My Arm, But They Can’t Stop Me From Resisting — Or Speaking Out." by Sarah Brammer-Shlay (The Forward, May 30 2017)

SARAH RECOMMENDS

The Iron Cage: The Story of the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood by Rashid Khalidi (2007)

The Crisis of Zionism by Peter Beinart (2013)

The Gatekeepers directed by Dror Moreh (2012)

**Rachel Roberts** Sep 08, 2017
Show notes

Rachel Roberts is a DC-based attorney who has been a Jewish activist for Palestinian rights since 2003. She recently worked with the Education Team from IfNotNow DC to pilot a curriculum called "Occupation 101."

In this interview, she talks about her own journey from "Israel, right-or-wrong" to Palestinian solidarity work, then explains some of the history and everyday realities of the West Bank under Israeli occupation.

This episode of Unsettled is hosted by Max Freedman. Original music by Nat Rosenzweig. Recorded in Brooklyn, New York on June 13, 2017, and edited for length and clarity.

**RACHEL ROBERTS** is an attorney, an activist, and a writer who lives in Washington, D.C. She has been an activist for Palestinian human rights since 2003 and has worked with numerous organizations and groups, including the International Solidarity Movement, Jews Against the Occupation, and Jewish Voice for Peace. Rachel recently returned from occupied Palestine where she served as part of the Center for Jewish Non-Violence 2017 delegation. Rachel has also served for several years as a civil rights attorney for CAIR-California, where she provided legal and civil rights advocacy services to U.S. Muslim victims of discrimination. In law school, she was the co-editor in chief of the UCLA Journal of Islamic and Near Eastern Law. Her opinion writing has been published in the Forward, the Baltimore Sun, the Oakland Tribune, the Electronic Intifada, and Mondoweiss. She holds degrees from Oberlin College, the Jewish Theological Seminary of America and the UCLA School of Law.

REFERENCES

IfNotNow

International Solidarity Movement

Birzeit University

The Black Eyed by Betty Shamieh

Brit Tzedek v’Shalom

J Street

Hillel International

The Case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz (2003)

Interactive Map of the West Bank (B’Tselem)

Active Stills

“Why the Palestinian Authority Should Be Shuttered” by Diana Buttu (The New York Times, 2017)

“Israel and Pinkwashing” by Sarah Schulman (The New York Times, 2011)

“Hasbara: Why does the world fail to understand us?” by Noam Sheizaf (+972, 2011)

Interview with Omar Barghouti (The Intercept, 2016)

That famous handshake

Baruch Marzel: “The Extremist Who Could Bring Kahanism Back to the Knesset” by Raphael Ahren (The Times of Israel, 2015)

“Accepting the apartheid label will normalise Israel” by Mark LeVine and Neve Gordon (Al Jazeera, 2017)

“This Day in History // 1948: N.Y. Times Publishes Letter by Einstein, Other Jews Accusing Menachem Begin of Fascism” (Haaretz, 2014)

“U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel” (Congressional Research Service, 2016)

RACHEL RECOMMENDS

The Question of Palestine by Edward Said (1992)

The Origins of the Palestine-Israel Conflict published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East (2001)

A People Without a Land directed by Eliyahu Ungar-Sargon (2014)

500 Dunam on the Moon directed by Rachel Leah Jones (2002)

Zochrot (an Israeli NGO working to promote acknowledgement of and accountability for the Nakba)

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