Why Your Church Isn’t Seeing Christmas Growth
Jul 21, 2025
You’re not alone. Many churches hope for big impact at Christmas but end up seeing minimal growth, and it’s not because your people don’t care or your services aren’t good enough.
In this final installment of our 3-part summer series on planning for Christmas, Rich Birch unpacks the real reasons why churches miss the mark—and how to avoid them. If you’re tired of putting in effort only to feel like Christmas could’ve reached more people, this episode is for you.
Inside today’s conversation:
You’re Skipping Steps Sending one email or making a single announcement doesn’t move the needle. Rich shares how churches unintentionally undercut their invite efforts by doing only pieces of the plan—and how you can fix it.
You Need a Full System, Not Just Hard Work More energy doesn’t automatically mean more guests. Rich explains how having a proven, start-to-finish invite system is more effective than just adding to your team’s to-do list.
Lukewarm Culture Doesn’t Spark Growth If you aren’t passionate and consistent about inviting people, your congregation won’t be either. Learn why clear, repeated messaging builds the kind of momentum that leads to overflowing Christmas services.
Repetition Is Not the Problem—It’s the Plan Don’t be afraid to sound like a broken record. Great churches aren’t afraid to repeat the invite over and over again in a clear, practical way.
This is part 3 of a special 3-part series designed to help your church plan ahead for Christmas—starting in the summer. Missed the first two episodes? Catch up here:
Let’s make this your most impactful Christmas ever.
Why Your Church Staff Might Be Out of Alignment (and How to Fix It) with Devin Goins
Jul 17, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Devin Goins, Executive Pastor of Strategic Development at Biltmore Church in western North Carolina, one of the fastest-growing churches in the country.
Is your church growing but you’re struggling to keep your team aligned and rowing in the same direction? Tune in as Devin outlines a simple yet powerful diagnostic tool that helps churches evaluate and improve staff alignment and organizational health.
Growth requires change. // Many churches resist change because they assume what got them here is what’s driving growth. Devin challenges this mindset, noting that growth itself creates complexity, which demands new systems, strategies, and adjustments. This means constantly reevaluating lids like parking, kids’ space, and worship environments—not just in moments of constraint but ahead of high-attendance seasons. Leaders must prepare for what’s coming, not just manage what’s current.
Layers of organization. // To truly understand what’s happening in your church, get to the ground level by listening to volunteers, attending huddles, and sitting with small groups. By observing how messages are communicated down the chain, you gain clarity on whether your team—and especially volunteers—are aligned with your vision.
Three care zones. // Devin introduces a framework Biltmore uses internally to assess team alignment and well-being. Based on scope of care, this tool identifies how staff are engaging with the organization through red, yellow and green zones. The more of your staff that you can help move to the green zone, the higher alignment will be in your church.
Red zone signs. // High stress or insecurity causes staff to focus only on themselves. They may appear withdrawn, burned out, or apathetic toward church goals. This could stem from external stress, misalignment with their role, or unclear expectations. They could have burnout from being in the wrong seat. They need honest conversations and be honest about why they do what they do.
Yellow zone signs. // The yellow zone is the most common zone in growing churches. Staff in this zone have shifted from self-focus to team-focus, but often at the expense of broader church alignment. Teams in the yellow zone may create policies that favor their own department, compete for resources, or unintentionally reinforce silos.
Green zone signs. // In the green zone staff have high security and low stress. Their scope of care extends beyond their department to the whole church. They’re vision-aligned, collaborative, and proactive. While not every team member can be in the green zone at all times, increasing this number improves organizational alignment dramatically.
Alignment is not passive. // Misalignment isn’t just operational—it’s spiritual. The enemy often works through disunity, and realignment requires intentionality. Leaders can support movement from red or yellow zones to green by removing resource scarcity, eliminating “zombie” processes, and clearly communicating goals and expectations. It’s also important to reward green zone behavior and affirm cross-department collaboration.
The role of executive leadership. // Executive pastors must lead the way by modeling unity. It’s easy to roll out new initiatives too quickly, but lasting change requires alignment at the top. Sometimes, slowing down for internal clarity results in faster organizational momentum. Avoid creating policies and procedures where structure replaces honest conversation. True alignment takes time and trust.
There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please shareit by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremelyhelpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!
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Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Well, hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We are really talking about how we work together, what do we do as a team to kind of keep us focused and rowing in the same direction? I know. Listen, friends, if we’re honest, all of us are wrestling with this and need help in this area. Rich Birch — And so we’ve got a real expert on the phone today on the call the phone whatever man 1990 called and wants their podcast back. We’ve got Devin Goins with us. he’s in an incredible church, Biltmore Church, a multi-site church in western North Carolina with seven locations, if I can count correctly, maybe eight with another one, a Spanish location service online. They’ve repeatedly been on the fastest growing church list in the country. He serves as the executive pastor of strategic development. That’s a fantastic title. Devin, welcome to the show. Devin Goins — Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. My title, I think, has been voted repeatedly, is most likely to be created by AI, is what I’ve been told. So, for sure. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. That that’s a normal – I’ve joked in, in other contexts that, you know, leading in a fast growing multi-site church. I was like, we should just stop having titles because it’s like constantly changing, you know, there’s always new things coming.
Devin Goins — They’re buzzwords. Rich Birch — Tell me about the church. Kind of tell us a little bit about Biltmore. Give us some context. Talk talk about that. Devin Goins — Yeah. So a regional multi-site church, we’ve got seven campuses, including the Spanish campus, but about to be number eight is under construction.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Devin Goins — Number nine is kind of in the pipeline a little bit.
Rich Birch — Fantastic.
Devin Goins — So we’re building that that as we speak. And so yeah, just a day to day kind of feel like my, my job, even though it sounds like AI what we found is that functionally, our lead pastor decides the what. And along with our executive team, I try to help with the with the how each and every week.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Devin Goins — And so it’s been growing quite a bit and very thankful to our leadership for that. And just try to steward that the best we can. Western North Carolina is very diverse in terms of some of its, you know, political leanings. You got high, high views on either side, particularly with the town that we’re in near Asheville. And so we’re just very excited to continue to be able to serve this community each and every week. Rich Birch — So good. You know, I there’s a lot I want to dig into today, but I’m sure leading in your context, I love that you’re, you know, launching another campus, thinking about the one beyond that, you’re growing church. You’re trying to you’re leading at the—I’ve talked about this in other contexts as well—leading at the intersection of vision and execution. Hey, how do we make this stuff happen? When you think about kind of leadership challenges that you’re facing that kind of been bubbling up, what are some of the things that that you know that you see you’re kind of dealing with these days? Devin Goins — Yeah. Well, I think with growth obviously comes complexity. We hear that a lot. And so how do you keep people aligned with that? I think oftentimes we think that we’re growing because of something. And so we don’t we sometimes to be resistant to change in that because we think, hey, this growth is happening for some reason. Why would we want to do anything to change that? And the reality is, if you’re growing, that’s when you need to be changing. Devin Goins — And so I’m thankful to be able to serve our lead pastor, Bruce Frank – one of the hardest workers I know. He’s amazing. He is great at navigating through change with people. And so we’re just seeing that is that, you know, we aren’t content with the status quo, with, we believe that God’s called us to more. And so, you know, day to day, I think one of the things that we’re looking at is our lids. I’m sure that y’all have covered many times on the show parking, kids, and worship are lids. And so I do a lot of research of going, hey, not only where are we now, but y’all y’all know and your listeners know that there’s cadences for the week and for the year that you’re going to have. And so just because you have capacity in June doesn’t mean necessarily you’re going to have capacity in February.
Rich Birch — Right.
Devin Goins — And so I try to be proactive with that and kind of highlight both hot spots and some cold spots of where we could potentially improve. Rich Birch — Yeah that’s cool. There’s a, man, there’s a lot there. We might come back to that, you know that lids conversation because there’s definitely something there on the physical side. But when it comes to kind of managing your people, managing the team, you know, there’s the, the big ideas of like, okay, we want to do these things, but then we’ve got to actually then get people to do that. Like we gotta move people through that. What are you learning on that front about managing your people, helping them kind of think through managing change in their in their in their work, in their lives. Devin Goins — Yeah. Yeah. So I think you’ve got to pay attention to the layers of your organization. And I think that sometimes we forget the last layer. And that’s the staff to the volunteers. And so you have got to communicate something so clearly up at the top that your leadership tier, that your executive tier is sick of talking about it. They’re sick of hearing about it. Because that’s when it’s going to start going down into, you know, your coordinators, into your specialists that are actually doing things on staff. Devin Goins — But then, you know, we made a decision recently that affected one of our positions and, the volunteers that they were over. And I actually sat in on one of their huddles and, and I got to hear their take and how they were explaining the decision that we made in a room on a whiteboard, how they were having to actually explain it to these volunteers, and it affected them personally. And so I’m a big fan of, you don’t want to stay down there but get as far in the ground level as you can. I, last Sunday went to a mature adults group that we have at the church, and I just said, hey, can I sit? And they, you know, were poking jokes at me the entire time, but I got to see, you know, on boots on the ground, what are things like. So obviously saturating “the why”. The bigger you get, the longer runway you have to have. But some people are successful at first at, you know, being a church that has a one-year-runway and they have success because they’re agile. But then you add locations, you add staff, and you have to be more and more intentional with that. Devin Goins — And so now that we’re at, you know, seven about to be eight campuses, we’re really trying. We don’t want to lose the ability to move quickly, but we we need to make sure that we move effectively and that that vision drips all the way down, not just to our staff, but to our volunteers as well. Rich Birch — Yeah. So good. I love your clear thinking on that. That’s, that’s fantastic. You’ve, I’ve seen a framework that you use internally. You call it red zones, yellow zones, green zones. Can you talk us through what these zones are first and then where where did this idea come from? Kind of give us…
Devin Goins — Yeah. Yeah.
Rich Birch — …the the germ of it. Where where did all this come from. Devin Goins — Yeah. So these zones are based on the scope of care. and so the scope of care, if you’re in the red zone, that means you’re highly stressed or you’re highly insecure. We’re talking about staff members here. Your scope of care tends to be yourself or themselves if we’re talking about staff members. Devin Goins — And then if they’re moderately stressed and this is what I see with a whole lot of churches, whether they’re growing or shrinking, is that they have a lot of people that are in the yellow zone. And that’s whenever they start thinking about, not just themselves, they’re beyond that, but they’re thinking primarily about, their team. If you’re a multi-site church, then you’re starting to think about your campus. Not that there’s ever any of that going on.
Devin Goins — But, and then finally, if you’re in the green zone, which means you’re low stress, high security, high vision, then you’re going to be thinking about the entire church, and that’s going to be your scope of care. And what we found is that the more people you can have, you aren’t going to have everybody in the green zone. But the more is an executive pastor or leadership team that you can move into that green zone, or at least out of the red zone, we really want them in the green zone. The more that you can have in there, you don’t have a high chance of high alignment in your church. Devin Goins — Moderate alignment happens because of the teams and all that when it’s in the yellow zone. But then low alignment happens when you have a whole lot of people that are in that red zone. And so we have this kind of framework that we use, and it helps us be able to identify, because we don’t want our people in the red zone. That’s not beneficial to them. That’s not beneficial to the church. And so it gives us a chance to pastor them through. And there’s many reasons for that.
Devin Goins — The kind of origin of it. I’ve been on staff now for, for 12 years, and I started as the communications director. And with the communications team, we had just gone multi-site when I got here. Our lead pastor, Bruce Frank, Carl Sutherland, our creative pastor – they had managed all the, like, really tough, like modernizing the worship service. What’s this idea of multi-site? And you’re given to all those things. And they had done that great. And we were experiencing a lot of growth because of that. It was being, rewarded, I think, for their efforts.
Devin Goins — But as the comms guy, I was starting to see under the surface. If you get nothing from this podcast, talk to your comms guy, because they’re going to see the underbelly of what is working. And there’s areas that were handling the stress very well. And there’s also areas that we’re still very much in that like one site church, or the number that we were, that we’re struggling to to kind of adapt to the new reality. Rich Birch — I, I love this. Friends, a little editorial note. The thing I love that you’ve done here—not surprising; you come from a comms background—you’ve tried to put to a a fairly simple, you know, red, yellow, green, on a complex and important topic. And that clarification, man, I can see how that would help drive internal. Because you have to get common language and understanding first before you can get that kind of alignment. So let’s talk about red zone. How do you identify that teammates, areas, departments are in the red zone. What’s does that look like to you? Give me some examples of that. Devin Goins — Absolutely. And, you know, I think it’s important to think through. This doesn’t mean an employee is a bad employee. I’ll kind of share a story about me two years ago when I was in the red zone. But it does mean that there’s a there’s something not working right that needs to be handled. So signs that we see… Are these people afraid or nervous in meetings with their supervisor. Whenever they have that one on one, or they always kind of shrinking away? Are they afraid that something, did I do something wrong? Things like that. They generally have an apathy towards team or organizational goals. Hey, we’re doing this whole new initiative and it’s going to be great. And we’re going to see, you know, this many baptisms. Hopefully next year is fruit of it. And they’re just apathetic towards it. But really what what kind of sums it up is their first thought or your first thought may be when something is presented or implemented. Hey how does this affect me? How does this affect me? What what is my, what what is the cost that I’m going to have with this? Devin Goins — Now again, we can easily go, hey, that means that somebody is, you know, a bad employee or in the wrong seat. Oftentimes, it’s an outside life stressor. And so, you know, for me, two years ago, my, my wife and I suffered a devastating miscarriage. It was something that I pastored some people through that before. But it wasn’t something that I thought that we were going to navigate ourselves. And so during that time, I was definitely in that red zone thinking. Hey, we got this great new, you know, project, and we’re rolling out this program, and I’m sitting there doing, man, I’m grieving. And I’ve also got a grieving wife, and we’re trying to grieve together but separate in timelines that that put us where I was thinking about myself. It doesn’t mean it’s bad, but it is something that we need to handle. Devin Goins — A couple other things that can lead to that. I’ll put this on our tier and executive pastors and leadership. Sometimes it’s a lack of clear vision and strategy and people not consistently hearing the why or the how. So it’s very important that we don’t go, you’re in the red zone. You’re bad. how do we handle this? How do you fix this? We need to look in the mirror and go, hey, are we actually consistently given that that how and why?
Devin Goins — The other thing is that it could be consistent redlining and burnout, possibly due to being in the wrong seat. Burnout is interesting. You can fake it for a while. But if you’re in the wrong seat and you know it, and you’ve got that imposter syndrome for for, you know, day after day, week after week, eventually it’s going to catch up to you.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true.
Devin Goins — And so we can see we can see that. So, and then we’ve got solutions just to get out of the red zone, obviously meeting with a counselor. That’s what I had to do, processing for the grief. Having honest conversations with a supervisor. I feel like supervisors know sometimes you’re in the wrong seat, but they’re waiting for you to be able to be the one. And I’m not sure that’s best, but sometimes that happens to to identify it. So everyone loses when you’re in the wrong seat and everybody wins whenever you’re in the right seat. And then finally, I know it’s cliche, but you’ve got to saturate yourself in why you do what you do and who you serve. Ministry is the best job in the world when you remember that. But when the hustle and bustle gets there and you forget why, there is a lot of stress in these roles and there is not a whole lot of credit sometimes or reward, at least on this side of heaven. It can be the best job in the world, or it can be the worst job in the world, depending on how connected you are with that. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I think that you’re there’s a lot there, but your clear distinction around, the kind of core behavior or mindset of someone in the red zone is it’s very much about them. Rich Birch — Everything – it’s… I’ve joked in other contexts, or not joked, I’ve said in other contexts there’s this idea of locus of control where it’s like, you know, external locus, internal locus of control. External locus of control people are always like: stuff happens to me. Everyone’s doing things to me. And that’s a, that’s a tough place to lead from for sure. So if, if that’s the red zone and then green zone is this idea of like, hey, I’m aligned with, like I’m thinking about the church. I’m thinking about the vision, the mission. I’m fully aligned with where we’re going. Explain the yellow zone to me. Help me understand where to… Because the two extremes I get, I get the like, oh, I’m super, you know, we all know that person where like, something happens and they’re like, oh my goodness. Or we know the person that’s strong in the line. What does the yellow zone look like? Devin Goins — Yeah. So this one’s hidden often. But I would say that particularly in growing churches, is one of the most common areas that people are in. And the reason is, you’ve, you’ve had this growth where you’ve whether you’re shrinking or growing. It’s applying pressure. And, and usually unless you’re just in dire straits, you have friends with the people that you work with, the department that you’re in, the campus that you’re in. And so you don’t just go all the way down to thinking of me, but you also realize that their survival and kind of like this group mentality, this herd mentality that the herd is just your your area. And so one of the things that we see common and I see this all the time, is policies and procedures are often created in a vacuum that favors a team or a department. So I’ll pick on myself here a little bit again – comms guy. We started getting requests that were, you know, like 7 to 10 days out for like full fledged videos. And we’re like, hey, the only way we could do this is if I say, if I call my wife and say, hey, am I going to see you for the next, you know, 7 to 10 days, and that’s not that’s not good. Devin Goins — So what we did, and it seems great on the surface, we said, hey, let’s create a policy and let’s create a procedure, but we’re going to create that procedure where it’s going to be a creative request form, a communications request form. And we’re going to put on there. You need to let us know this four weeks out in order for us to give you the deliverables. Now that seems great. And I’m high-fiving all of our you know, we’ve come up, we’ve had the great brainstorming ah meeting. But what we actually did there is we managed the symptom. We managed the symptom of getting things late. Well, when you actually dig into it, what was happening was we were growing at such a pace that smaller events were now big events because of their size. And so there was additional details that they needed to work through and they were waiting on their supervisors for. And so inadvertently, what I may have done is I may have put, if kids was waiting until, you know, ten days out, and they didn’t get their information, you know, ten days out. Devin Goins — Now I’m putting them in a double bind in a no-win situation where I’ve created a policy that helps me, but it doesn’t help them. And so that that’s very easy to do. It’s very easy to go, hey, we need this tool. But this tool is really geared towards lessening my load as a department. And that’s that’s easy to do. It’s natural to do. But as the executive team, executive pastors and leadership, we have to fight against that. Another couple of signs that could help with that or show that is competition takes place with other departments for promotional awareness. So they’re trying to outcompete each other of, hey, I’ve got you know, if you’re VBS and your student camp are like at the same time, who can be louder to, you know, kind of get an awareness of those events. But the key thing that they see and you’ll see, this is the first thought when something new is presented or implemented, how will this impact my team? Devin Goins — And so you’ll see this a little bit, something’s being revealed in an all staff meeting and there’s a text thread and it’s for, you know, that department. Hey, did you hear about this? How is this going to affect this? How is this? And you’re you’re bonding together, but you aren’t bonding together for the church. You’re you’re fighting for survival for for you. The thing that I will say, this is where the executive pastor, executive team can help with this. And so you can help look at organizational growth and scarcity of resources that can cause that. So you can look at that. Another thing that you can look at is look at inherited processes and goals. I call these, zombie processes. It’s a process that’s been there, and maybe a staff member is doing this… Oh, Rich, I, I got to tell you a story.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Devin Goins — I need to I need to tell her about this before this podcast airs. But, a couple of years ago, I was the comms guy, again, I kept going to our welcome desk throughout the week. And it was some of this great content. I think it was on like, spiritual warfare or something like that. And I think it’s like Billy Graham, good content. But the cover of it was like these angels and demons battling, and it just was not our brand. It was not anything, you know, that we would, we would want. And so I would go up and I would see it and I would take them and I would put them in the trash. I’m getting good content, but I’m like, I don’t know if this is approved. I don’t know where this is coming from. You know, all that. And then the next week I would come back to the desk and there was the same material again. And I’m like, okay, so I take it, I put it in the trash. Then it starts getting where I put it in the trash. The next day it’s back and I’m like, who is here? This is obviously a staff member. This is obviously somebody, you know, and so I go out to the lobby and I see one of one of our ladies that’s been on staff for many years, and she is so awesome and will run the play in for years upon years. Devin Goins — And I see her with these things, with these pamphlets in her hands. And I’m like, hey, you know, are you the one that’s, you know, putting these out here? And she goes, yes, Devin, I am. And you would not believe how popular these things are. I put them down and they are gone the next day. And so I keep printing them out and doing all that. I’m like, oh, man.
Rich Birch — That’s amazing.
Devin Goins — So we had a talk and said, hey, can we modernize the cover? This is obviously, you know, went for there. But be careful, though, sometimes your most dedicated employees are doing these zombie processes. And then, you know, also just making sure that you don’t have competing goals and that you’re planning holistically with that. So…
Rich Birch — Right.
Devin Goins — …a couple of things just to get out of that: if the policy or anything primarily benefits only your team or department, you got to consider if that’s worth doing. Planning ahead and planning together, and then just aligning with a strategic plan we found has helped a lot with that. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. How did how has this impacted the kind of internal conversations, this framework. What does this look like operationally kind of on the ground.? Like what is this is it does this bubble up or people like, they give you a stamp and say or a sticker and you’re like, you’re in the red zone. You know, what’s that what’s that look like? Devin Goins — Yeah. No, we definitely try to reward like, I’ve got a production director now that’s amazing. And he’s got a video background. And so he just filmed all of our videos for our adventure week, what we call our VBS, and they are amazing. And so I try to make a point of that to complement where, where we can, any sort of thing with that, to be able to say, hey, people really just when they know they’re doing a good job, you know what gets rewarded, gets repeated. And sometimes rewarded is just, you know, calling it out and saying it. So it’s that. Devin Goins — I think it’s also, and this is the frustrating thing, is whenever something pops up, and I have situations right now where I want to go yellow zone, so, so fast because there’s a stress point that’s there. And so I’ll have an employee say, hey, this happened and this is against, you know, our policy. Can we, you know, gate this so it has to go through another approval process. And it’s frustrating, but to sit back and go, okay, let’s put ourselves in the other department shoes. What what are some of the pressures that they’re facing, and how can we go green zone thinking of going, what’s the stress behind all this and how can we work together for it? I’m not saying that we do that perfect. It annoys some of my employees sometimes because I think they want me to just come down with the hammer. But I think ultimately, when we’re all on the same team, it’s felt and we know that we can get further, faster. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good. I like particularly your your conversation around policies there because you know, and I’ve, I’ve said in other context that policies are if your policy is just trying to you have a policy to try to avoid a conversation, then we really shouldn’t have that policy. You should just have the conversation. Like so using the example of like we’ve all lived, you have a very vivid example. Hey we need this video in x number of days, weeks, you know whatever. And it’s not, how do you actually solve that then? If we don’t have a policy, if we don’t say it’s four weeks, what do you functionally do to try to drive alignment? Have more conversation? Is that the goal? Devin Goins — Yeah, yeah. I think the conversation has got to be key. I would say that sometimes we do a policy to avoid those conversations. And the other thing, whatever the structure is, whatever that tear down in your church from the lead pastor is they have got to be on the same page, and they have got to be willing to slow roll something until they get on the same page.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Devin Goins — So I’m one of four executive pastors, and man, I’ve got some ideas that I think are just amazing. I think that they would push us forward. I think they would be great. And and to be honest, I’ve been given by our lead pastor some positional authority to be able to roll some of those out. But if I do that, and I don’t have my other three teammates on the same page…
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Devin Goins — …it’s probably not going to stick. And when something doesn’t stick that that trails off that that continues on in your organization, you start having questions like, hey, is this going to be another one of X, Y, and Z? I know we’re talking about it. I know Devin’s really excited about it, but I talked to my guy and and he didn’t know about it. Or he he’s got some questions about it. So that that second layer has got to be on the same page. And sometimes you gotta you’ll actually get there faster, being slower and waiting for everybody to come along to it, refining it. But you never want to put your teams where they’re against each other, and they don’t have the authority to solve it because their executive pastors upstream are not on the same page. Devin Goins — So a commitment to that. We meet, quite a bit, and sometimes it feels long. But I know that whenever we, we exit that room, we’re on the same page, and we’re all going to be saying the same thing, and that’s important. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great. My friend Jenni Catron talks about the fact that our cultures are not as good as we think they are. You know, the we as as senior leaders, we think, man, it’s great to work here. This is fantastic. But it’s actually not the case. You got to get out and talk to people. There’s some resonance here with that. I think there’s a similar issue around alignment. We’re probably not as aligned as we think we are. Kind of dig that out a little bit more. You know, it’s it’s this is an important issue for us to really own at the senior level. Help us understand that. Talk that talk that through a little bit. Devin Goins — Yeah. No I think with alignment what we have to think through, one, I think that we believe that we can drift towards alignment. And sometimes we do say with the gospel we have this alignment so we should naturally, if we’re all Christ followers. And and the reality is nothing is not passive. It doesn’t it doesn’t happen. So I actually think alignment is is very spiritual. And I’ll take it from, from two angles. One, think about the Scripture in general. One of the main purposes of Scripture, I believe, is to align our life based off of biblical principles that we see in God’s Word, and biblical truths and the gospel. And so I think that you think of the word sanctification. That’s really just alignment of aligning your life personally. And so I think it is a spiritual concept that can have organizational stuff. The flip side is also true, is that I believe that that the devil knows that he can, if he can misalign, if he can use misalignment for a church, he can greatly reduce its effectiveness. Devin Goins — So it’s not just this passive thing. A well-resourced church, you may go, man, I’m not a well resourced church, you know, X, Y, and Z. If you have a church building, if you have a congregation, if you’re meeting, you’re you’re well resourced by the world’s standards. You can make a difference with your resources. And so I believe the devil goes constantly and goes, hey, a way for me to minimize their effectiveness, I can’t tackle their resources, but I can make them much more inability to be able to manage those and reduce their effectiveness, because I can get, you know, departments against each other. And if I can make the enemy Fran from kids, as opposed to the devil, I’m gonna greatly reduce that church’s effectiveness as opposed to, being able to do that. Rich Birch — That, Dude, that is so true. You know, I’m laughing. Not because it’s funny, but because it’s so true. Like, you know, we’ve we’ve seen that. It’s like, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about how we’re talking to each other rather than working on the thing that the mission that God’s given us. That’s that’s so fantastic. Well, maybe there’s a leader that’s listening in today and they think, man, my team, the people I work with, maybe me is, you know, shifting towards yellow to red. What’s like a step or two you think we could take to try to address that? Devin Goins — Yeah. So I think a couple of things. If you are in positional authority, use that positional authority. We sometimes think of that as being a bad thing. And we should, you know, not not lead through that, but use that for good and remove bottlenecks or resource scarcity. If there’s something sometimes we’re guilty of trying to be good stewards and we order just enough of a product or a supply. But really what we’ve done downstream is we’ve made departments compete against each other for that. And then if somebody doesn’t return it and then there’s these battles. So the, the okay with, you know, trying to reduce that resource scarcity, any bottlenecks that you see also. Devin Goins — Also, manage the calendar holistically. Just because it’s good doesn’t mean it’s best. And particularly if you are scaling these events and these things that you need to promote, they get bigger over time. So as you scale in terms of size, you may have to look at something and go, man, that was good, but is it best for right now? And then something that we touched on before is just continually highlight and reward, Green Zone thinkers. You know, some of the signs of being in that green zone is that you’re complimenting departments five times more than you’re giving a critique. So, you know, just being able to reward that whenever you see that. And then also make sure that you’ve got some sort of church wide strategy. We can very quickly do why aren’t they doing what we want them to be doing? Why aren’t they aligning around this? Do they know it?
RicH Birch — Yes.
Devin Goins — Have we have we actually talked about it enough that they know that inside and out? Do they know the objectives? Do they know our, you know, data points that we’re actually looking at? Do they know what we feel like our vision is, and why God has put us at this spot at this time? That that has to just be saturated in that continually. Rich Birch — Oh, it’s so true. It’s been said that, you know, there’s that saying vision leaks. But I heard someone recently add vision leaks and alignment evaporates.
Devin Goins — Ooh yeah.
Rich Birch — …like it just, you know, we we have to work at this constantly. Can I double click on the resource scarcity idea? I think that’s a particular for executive pastors. There are some XPs that can be seen as the “no” people like. And I know it’s none of the people listening to this podcast, but it’s, talk to us about that. I think you’re absolutely right. I think a part of our job is to there’s a train going down the tracks. Our job is to get far enough out and lay down tracks so that thing can keep going. But that means we got to be thinking ahead on some of these issues. What does that functionally look like for you, for your team? How do we ensure that we have enough resource so that we’re not getting people to fight over it down downstream? Devin Goins — So really going after those sacred cows, at first, I think is is good. Sometimes when there’s a period of growth we tie everything that’s been going on at that time is the causation for that growth. And sometimes what we found is that sometimes something can grow not because of something, but in spite of something. And that can be very dangerous whenever you get those two things confused, because you might be doubling down on something…
Rich Birch — That’s so true. That’s so true.
Devin Goins — …that something else is working so well that’s able to overcome that. But you’ve identified that as the thing that’s your special sauce. And so to to really look at that and go, hey, let’s discern what do we think is actually moving the needle here?
Rich Birch — That’s so true.
Devin Goins — And how do we make sure that we, we, sufficiently resource that and there may be items that we have to let go of as, as we scale. I call it organizational sprawl. That’s a tendency that happens is we’re really excited about this thing. And so we launched it and it’s front focused and all that. And then it is this with some resources over here, but it’s kind of dwindling. But then we have this other thing over here where excited about. So then we resource that and inadvertently we end up with a budget crunch. And so everybody’s not resourced quite to their effectiveness.
Devin Goins — And so I think being able to identify, hey, what are some key focuses right now, work that into the strategic plan. And if you’re growing and you aren’t actively cutting something, again it’s most of us don’t have ministries that are bad. Most of us don’t have items that we’re like that is completely ineffective. But it could be stifling and it could be taking some resources that you really need to get to that next level and what’s working. So obviously that goes back to communication, that goes back to buy in, that goes back to some great leadership traits that our lead pastor has of being able to simplify as we grow. But that’s, that’s just key because otherwise it’s going to be a smaller piece of the pie as you continue to grow and you’re going to face that resource scarcity. Rich Birch — Yeah. I hope you were listening in, friends. That little nugget there is worth the price of admission. That has been my experience in leading in fast growing churches is what got us here, is not going to get us there. And we have to, I forget who said you got to shoot your darlings, you got to kill the stuff that’s working but isn’t pushing you towards, you know, the mission. And that is hard to do. That is that is difficult. It’s difficult, long work. But that’s why God’s put us in the roles we’re in. That’s a part of our job. And I just literally just recently last week, week, two weeks ago, was talking to a church leader about a program that by all expenses, they were on the outside saying, hey, this thing is working. Like it’s like if you were to judge you and say, this is working. But when you look up under the hood, it wasn’t pushing the mission forward. And they’re working with their team to say, well, this is the end of it. We’re, we’re, we’re, we’re sundowning it. And I was like, good for you. That’s what we got to do. Rich Birch — We’ve got we’re going to link to a resource. This is a resource that you use internally. This is that working together document. Tell us a little bit about this document. We’ll make it available for folks. But this is a great resource for them. Devin Goins — Yeah, obviously we’re audio only. and so there’s, there’s a document that’s a PDF that we use. It’s actually the slide deck, that I use with it and the diagnostic tool. It’s got the scope of care and what you’re really leading people through. And there’s several points that that we didn’t even cover a day of helping people identify which zone are they in, what’s kind of some causes that might be putting them there, and then what what are some ways that you can get out of there. And then of course, with the green zone, how how if you are there, can you stay there? Because it’s not going to happen naturally. Something got you there. And we want to keep you there. And as leaders, we won’t be able to help you, and disciple you in that way. Devin Goins — And so hopefully it’s a blessing. It’s something that we did, you know, a 20 to 30 minute, all-staff, and then a lot of departments then went out and said, okay, let’s we’ve got our personal stuff that we’re dealing with. Where do we think we are as a department?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Devin Goins — And how can we as a department actually start to do a little bit more green zone thinking? How can we align objectives? Where are we doing passion projects that probably really don’t, it’s not that they don’t align, but they also don’t push it as far forward. So that’s been very helpful for us as well. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good. So, so helpful. Again, I think there are listeners who are listening in who a light bulb has gone off and they’re like, you know, there’s this team member who just get under my skin because they don’t get it. They don’t get it. They’re always thinking about themselves. And they and we just have not given that person the words to lead them out of the red zone, you know, and get them into green. I think you’ve done a great task here. This is fantastic. Any kind of final words as we wrap up today’s episode? Devin Goins — No, I think, just don’t discount your value as a as a leader of the church. You know, be encouraged. These are these are good times. Don’t be afraid to to have these things take some time. That’s that’s one of the things our lead pastor, I think one of the great benefits that we’ve had with him is just consistency and planting seeds. Often with alignment, it takes time, it takes a lot of hard conversations, but it’s worth it. And I do believe that that, the Lord will will bless it. Because we, we ultimately we aren’t just aligning to ourselves or our ideals. We’re trying to align people towards, towards the gospel and that we can share that with even more people. So keep fighting the good fight. You’re valuable. And, I hope, today helped. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s super helpful. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them? Online? Devin Goins — Yeah. Please, please visit our, our social, for the church, @biltmorechurch, on Instagram, Facebook, all the above. I’m not in the comms team now, but I hired people that are much better than I was and so they do a fantastic job.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Devin Goins — I’ve got I’ve got an Instagram, but it’s just a whole lot of photos of the western North Carolina mountains.
Rich Birch — Hey!
Devin Goins — …that’s nice for that. So if you want that, that’s that’s good. If you want church stuff, the church channel and then our, our lead pastor, @pastorbrucefrank – you can follow him there. And he’s got great content as well. Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Devin. I really appreciate you being here today and all the best as you continue to lead at Biltmore. Devin Goins — Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
3 Churches That Leveraged Christmas Well … and What You Should Copy This Year
Jul 14, 2025
What if you could double your church’s attendance this Christmas … just by doing what other growing churches already do?
In this second installment of our special Christmas planning series, Rich Birch unpacks three real-life examples from churches that didn’t leave Christmas up to chance—and saw incredible results. These churches represent different regions and contexts, but all share a key trait: they treat Christmas like a growth engine, not just a tradition.
Here’s what you’ll discover in this episode:
The 2x Benchmark: Rich shares a healthy target for churches during Christmas—double your average attendance—and explains why this isn’t just about numbers, but about reaching people who are spiritually open during this season.
Lake Hills Church – Austin, TX: This church ignited a “Big Day Rally Cry” by creating a 12-minute pre-Christmas moment in their service, featuring testimony, vision casting, and a live invitation challenge. You’ll hear how they rallied hundreds to invite friends, right there in the room.
Verve City Church – Chino, CA: Learn how this innovative church packaged a “VIP Christmas Guest Experience” using mailers and digital ads to drive pre-registration, offer special guest perks, and radically boost first-time attendance.
NBUC / New Beginnings Church – Ontario, Canada: Discover how they turned Christmas into a leadership development moment by launching a “Volunteer Invite Challenge” that blended prayer, accountability, and a little healthy competition to motivate core team members to reach out.
These examples aren’t complex—they’re systems that any church can adapt and implement.
Rich reminds us: “Churches that grow don’t leave Christmas to chance.” Now is the time to put systems in place, build momentum, and prepare your team to make the most of the biggest Sunday of the year.
This episode is part 2 of a special 3-part series designed to help your church plan ahead for Christmas, starting this summer. If you missed part 1, be sure to go back and check out: “Why Christmas Can Still Be the Biggest Service of the Year At Your Church”Listen Now
Be sure to follow or subscribe so you don’t miss part 3 next week, where we’ll explore why churches sometimes fail to grow during the holidays—and how you can avoid those pitfalls.
Dream Again: A Church’s Journey from Debt to Deep Impact with Mike Winger
Jul 10, 2025
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mike Winger, Executive Pastor at Mosaic Christian Church in the Baltimore-Washington area.
What does it take to launch a bold new vision while carrying the weight of financial obstacles? Tune in as Mike unpacks the multi-year process that led to Mosaic’s Unlimited campaign—one that wasn’t about buildings, but about unleashing ministry by removing financial barriers and reigniting the church’s collective imagination.
See the community with fresh eyes. // Mosaic’s transformative journey began with a simple question: What would it look like if Maryland resembled heaven? The team began viewing their community with fresh eyes, noticing the stark contrast between wealth and poverty—even in their own backyard. Mike and Lead Pastor Jonathan Moynihan were stirred by the suffering happening along Route One, an area plagued by human trafficking and hourly motels. Their conversations led to a renewed vision of spiritual and physical restoration in their region.
Vision first, then strategy. // Mike’s role as Executive Pastor is to turn vision into action. While Jonathan cast a grand vision, Mike focused on the how. They reverse-engineered a plan by identifying bottlenecks and brainstorming long-term steps to remove them—eventually deciding to launch a financial campaign. But unlike traditional efforts tied to buildings or facilities, this campaign was about removing the “weighted vest” of debt to unlock greater impact.
Prayer walks, not just planned meetings. // Before casting the vision to the church, the team engaged in prayer walks and “vision tours” through the affected neighborhoods. They asked God to open their eyes and hearts, and invited staff and volunteers to see the problem up close. The campaign’s purpose became clear: not just to raise funds, but to inspire spiritual growth and collective dreaming.
The vision is more important than the campaign. // Generosity campaigns aren’t about raising money for money’s sake. They’re about reaching more people with the gospel. Like past campaigns that helped Mosaic, this effort was merely a tool to advance the mission. Teaching from Jesus’ example, Mike explained that God could have provided everything miraculously—but He invites people to be part of the story through generosity.
Corporate goals and individual goals. // Mosaic encouraged everyone to dream both corporately and personally. The church asked, “What dream has God placed in your life?” and “What blocks have you allowed in your life that you want God to open up?” As people considered giving, Mike challenged them to see their gifts as spiritual steps representing their faith in God to move in their lives, not just financial contributions.
Results and reinvestment. // Though not tied to a building or campus expansion, Mosaic’s Unlimited campaign raised over $8.5 million in pledges—well above expectations. Just eight months into the 25-month campaign, the church had already received $4.4 million. Mosaic committed to giving 10% of all campaign donations to partner with 10:12 Sports, a Christian organization mentoring underprivileged youth in West Baltimore. The funds will help renovate space for them to further this work.
A Generosity Guide to rally everyone. // To keep the whole church aligned, Mosaic created a comprehensive campaign guide integrating sermons, devotionals, small group resources, and personal reflection tools. The church paused all other ministries and aligned every group to journey together. The guide provided a day-by-day roadmap and gave group leaders materials to help people connect their personal timelines with the broader vision of the church.
There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please shareit by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremelyhelpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!
Do you feel like your church’s facility could be preventing growth, and are you frustrated or maybe even overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your church building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that your church could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?
Well, the team over at Risepointe has been there. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead your church to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Licensed all over North America, their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to help move YOUR mission forward.
Check them out at Risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there get their FREE resource “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build”.
Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation – this is to be a great one. I know it’s going to be helpful and challenging. It’s the kind of thing we should be leaning in on. Excited to have Mike Winger with us. He is the executive pastor at a fantastic church in the Baltimore, Washington, D.C. area called Mosaic Christian. They were started in 2008, and it has consistently been one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Mike, super glad to have you on the show. Welcome. Mike Winger — Thank you. It’s an honor to be here. Really pumped. Rich Birch — Why don’t you kind of tell us a little bit about Mosaic and maybe the impact you’re experiencing as a church? And also, how does, ah you know, what’s the scale, the scope of executive pastor? I know it looks different at every church. And so it’s always good to kind of hear how different people have sliced up that role. Mike Winger — Yeah, so like you said, we were started in 2008, so we’re like 16 going on 17. And like our vision statement is that we want to be a church for people who don’t go to church. So everything that we do needs to be contextualized for someone who has never stepped foot in a church before. Mike Winger — And that’s really important to us. And so we like I said, we we we’ve kind of gone through the journey of like meeting in a movie theater, then going through different spaces. And now it’s just been awesome to see what God’s doing.
Rich Birch — Love it. Mike Winger — My role has shifted every single year. I think being on staff from being like the junk drawer, I came on staff and I was the junk drawer person. Rich Birch — The junk drawer. Mike Winger — Yes, I had to do like facilities, students, missions, the office and all the things.
Rich Birch — That’s hilarious.
Mike Winger — So then I got more focused with creative arts. Rich Birch — Yeah. Mike Winger — And now I’m back to the junk drawer position of like the executive pastor role because everything just kind of comes back to me. So I’ve seen God kind of use every single step on the chapter of my existence here at Mosaic and it’s all come full circle at this point. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. I love that. I’ve never heard the executive pastor role referred to as the junk drawer. I might steal that. I might steal that, Mike. Mike Winger — It’s so true.
Rich Birch — That’s true. It’s true, yep.
Mike Winger — Because I’ll go from like a budget meeting to like a pastoral care to something else. I’m like, you got to switch your lines all the time. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s that’s true. I’ve served for years in that role and it it does have that feeling of like, it’s like constantly shifting gears and trying to think about, okay, you know and has a lot of that. Obviously, that’s why we call it stuff they didn’t teach in seminary because there’s lots of times you’re like, I never thought I’d be dealing with this in church world, but here it is. Mike Winger — Oh yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.
Mike Winger — Oh yeah. Rich Birch — Well, Mosaic’s a fantastic church, prevailing church over an extended period of time. It’s always been about making an impact. But I kind of want to bring us up to speed. You know, you’ve talked a little bit about something, there was something stirring in your team that you needed to, you know, realize, hey, we’ve got to maybe change some things, think about the next level, think about where we’re going next. Kind of bring us up to speed on that part of the conversation. Mike Winger — Yeah, so back in ’22, we went through a pastoral lead change. So our founding pastor stepped down, went back to his home church. And then our new pastor, who was on staff with me for the previous 10 years, his name Jonathan Moynihan. So we were serving together for a long time and we’re both born and raised like in the area. So we’re from Baltimore. We didn’t parachute here. So like we know Baltimore because it’s in our DNA. Mike Winger — And so we live in a very wealthy area, part of the country, sandwiched right in between Baltimore and DC, but like it’s the haves and the have nots. And it’s not even just the case that’s like the inner city of Baltimore is the have nots. It’s like in our backyard here, outside of the city as well. And so as we’ve continued to want to like make an impact in the lives of people spiritually, like that’s the main thing. The win is when someone gets in the tub and gets baptized. Mike Winger — But we also didn’t want to turn a blind eye to like, the plight that was going on down the street where there’s hourly motels where human trafficking, sex trafficking, and everything is going on down there. So was like, we’ve started asking questions. What would it look like for Maryland to look like heaven?
Rich Birch — So good. Mike Winger — And asking those questions, seeing our community with fresh eyes, what would it look like? How can we make a bigger impact? So that just started a lot of conversations between Jonathan and myself. And he did a staff retreat. This was all like one of his sessions. Mike Winger — So then I come back to him and I’m like, hey, if you’re really about that, we need to have like some deeper conversations to make that possible because you have really big, grandiose ideas. But where I come into play is like, how can I make those happen? So he sets the vision and um my job is to figure how are we going to get there? And then that comes with dollar signs and all of that. Mike Winger — So that kind of got us on this journey to say, Hey, if we have a vision, what’s the bottleneck to this vision? How can I open it up? And so that’s when I started pitching to him the idea of doing a financial campaign. But that was still two years in the making before we would even launch anything like this to accomplish what we want to do long-term in our community. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love the, well, there’s there’s a ton there to unpack, but I love this idea that, well, first of all, there’s a tool, a video that you guys have produced that caught my attention because right from the beginning, I think the opening line of the video is, you’ve probably all thought about leaving Maryland sometime, right? Mike Winger — Oh yeah. Rich Birch — And which I was like, what? Like, what a way to to lead out. Let’s kind of stick on this idea just for a little bit around, let’s make Maryland look like heaven. When you were casting that, like kind of before we got to the campaign, as that was kind of bubbling around, what was it that had you thinking like, oh my goodness, this is this is a big deal. This isn’t just like, oh, we’re going to rebrand some stuff. Like what what kind of led you to that thought? Mike Winger — Yeah. So I would say a lot, Jonathan’s very passionate about leading our church and growing up spiritual muscle. That was definitely like atrophied, the spiritual muscle prayer. So we even just started doing like prayer walks and vision tours up and down what we call route one, where a lot of those hourly motels are. So just getting our people, our staff, our volunteers, people that call Mosaic home around, the what’s going on in our community to get them to see the problem. Mike Winger — And we needed them to feel it, even before we even publicly talked about how can we be a part of the solution. So we just ask God to like open our eyes to these problems and just see them, and do what we could at the time, the best that we could to serve those within our own reach. But we just tried to say, God, what’s what open our eyes beyond just our own four walls. Rich Birch — I love that. That’s good. You know, this idea of getting our people engaged, starting with prayer, I think this is fantastic. So then bring us a little bit farther along. You know, I think we’ve all been there or if you’re in the executive pastor seat, we’ve been in that conversation with our lead pastor where it’s like, Oh my goodness. Like that, like what you can just hear the dollar signs in your head start going off. But I think some people could at that moment try to pull back, but you’ve chosen to lean in and say, no, let’s actually look at that. Talk, take us through that conversation. What did that look like? Mike Winger — Yeah. So as we were like praying through it, we’re like, what would it look like for us to buy one of these hotels and turn it into like a dream center? And in my head, I’m like, dollar signs are just going up and up and up. But I’m in the position where I’m not trying to like stifle vision. Like the how can totally stifle the wow. So I’m just like embracing this wow mindset. Mike Winger — And I’m thinking, man, wouldn’t it be awesome if we did have a dream center where we can start empowering people with job job training? and teaching people how to manage money and to bring families together instead of splitting them apart. Like, what would it look like for this building that was cause for division and actually have it be used to bring unity instead? Rich Birch — Wow. Mike Winger — And so just asking, having that long term vision, what would what would need to be true of us in order to make that happen? And so if we just started with the end in mind, with that clear vision of what could be, then we could reverse engineer and say, well, this needs happen and that needs to happen and that needs to happen. Mike Winger — So then our, Jonathan and I, the lead pastor, we just started asking the questions. Well, this needs to be true. This needs to be… And we started reverse engineering. And this isn’t like six months of like what needs to be true in six months. This might be what needs to be true in 25 years. Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. Now what, what, so love that. I think we can jump so quickly to the, the campaign. We can jump to like, okay, let’s get into the tactics…
Mike Winger — Yeah.
Rich Birch — …and there’s, we feel that rush, but I like that you slowed down and say, no, like, let’s, we gotta be really, it’s what the vision is more important than the campaign. Mike Winger — Yeah. Rich Birch — And it’s really easy for those to get confused. How did you keep the campaign from becoming preeminent rather than the vision being preeminent? What did that look like for you? Mike Winger — Yeah. So we’ve done many campaigns in our history. And so when I started gathering a team of people, the campaign team, I just called it quick timeout when we started like, giving out the task and the roles and all of that. And I did a reverse, I said, what was Greater for? And they said, oh, that was to get us into a building. And I said, what was whatever the other campaign name was? Mike Winger — And it was, oh, it’s to get us out of the movie theater. And so then I I called the timeout. I said, we need to readjust our mindset around those. Those were all tools. All of these campaigns were to reach more people. It wasn’t to get a building. It wasn’t to get out of the theater. We wanted to reach more people. We thought that getting out of the theater…
Rich Birch — Right.
Mike Winger — …or we thought that a permanent 24 seven space would be the best tool for us to reach people. So I said from the jump with this campaign, we need to teach people that we want to continue to reach more people. And so we’re going to do the campaign in order to reach people. Mike Winger — And so we we kind told the story of like Jesus, has he’s all powerful. He has everything at his fingertips. He could have looked at the dirt or sand and said, become money. And he had some money to go do his ministry…
Rich Birch — Right.
Mike Winger — …but he didn’t. He actually included women to fund his ministry, his gospel preaching tour that him and his buddies were going to go on. And he invited people to go in through generosity in order to enable him to go preach the gospel and do his ministry. He didn’t just say, “sand become money”. Mike Winger — So we would try to, how can we position ourselves to say, hey, we want to continue our ministry and ask God to do more. And we’re going to show him that we mean what we say through our actions, through a campaign.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Why I love that focus of, you know, the engaging people is a part of what he wants to do. It’s actually, you know, he could just write in your case an $8 million dollar check and just give it to you. Or he could engage a whole bunch of people to be involved. And I remember and last year, I got a call from a donor who had a very large sum of money and they could just solve a problem for their church. Rich Birch — And he was like, well, do you think I should give that money to church? I was like, well, you got to wrestle that with the Lord. But I said, if you’re asking me, I would say no, like, don’t just solve the problem. Rich Birch — Come alongside the church, find a way to like, what if, what if there was a maybe God’s got an even bigger dream for the church and you’re just one piece of that puzzle. And, you know, ask this bigger question to stay focused on, Hey, what is the vision of the church? Not just like, Hey, we were trying to do this tactic. Rich Birch — What practical steps did you take to kind of, to both craft and then clearly communicate this narrative to keep your people focused on the bigger thing rather than just giving, what did that look like? Mike Winger — Yeah. So there’s the aspect of like the corporate goal, but also the individual goal. So the individual goal is going to feed into the corporate goal. Mike Winger — And so we really try to say like, we have a problem as a church. We want to reach more people, but we have this debt that’s on our hand that we’re going to apply the campaigns for. But then we try to twist the story and make it like…let me start over. Mike Winger — We were saying like, what would it look like for us to dream again as a church? We kept on going to the dream analogy. And so we’re trying to open up, but then we went back to the individual: what would look for you to dream in your own life? Like what is being, what, what blocks have you allowed in your life that you want God to open up? Rich Birch —That’s good. That’s good. Mike Winger — And so we started hearing stories like on the individual level what people sacrifice would be. And it’s not just a dollar amount that they’re giving to so the church can accomplish a goal or reach a vision. But it’s saying, Hey, God, I’m asking for you to do something in my own life. And I’m showing you with my hands, with my wallet that I want you to do something through it. So there’s tons of stories of people sacrifice that really hit. And that is like the culmination, the collaboration of, of, of the corporate campaign. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Well, let’s jump ahead to ah the results side. How are you, you know, so where are we at in the process? How are you feeling that’s gone, um you know, on both sides, both the ability to raise the resources that you’re hoping to raise and then also the engagement with individuals, you know, people actually taking this more than, hey, this is a financial thing. It’s like, this is ah an opportunity to dream of what God wants to do in my life. Mike Winger — Yeah, so ah the people responded so well to this, we were really kind of blown away. The campaign that we did, ah our coach called it the phantom campaign because we weren’t doing a campus. We weren’t doing a new building. We already had that. We had enough space. But we weren’t we felt like we were running a marathon with a weighted vest. And we were like, what if we could run this marathon without this weighted vest? And our weighted vest was the debt. Mike Winger — And we could continue to ministry as a way we knew how to do it and keep going. But we said, what if God wants to do something a little bit more, but the thing that’s standing in the way is our own selfishness and not doing a campaign. So I just wanted to ask the church, what would it look like for all of us to sacrifice and see how they responded. Mike Winger — And they coached us through, like they were saying for a 25-month campaign, you could probably expect 3 to 6 million above and beyond like normal giving. And so we did the campaign series and at the end, our church committed almost $8.5 million dollars. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. Praise God. That’s incredible. Mike Winger — So that was in October. It was unbelievable. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. Mike Winger — Like we were really, really, really, really shocked. And so that was October. So we’re about um seven or eight months into the 25 months. And so we’ve, people have already given 4.4 million. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Mike Winger — It’s unbelievable. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Mike Winger — And so to really to show that we wanted to because we didn’t want the campaign even to just be about what’s coming in to like pay off debt. Rich Birch — Right. Mike Winger — Like we really fought hard, because we’re not like anti-debt. Like we may need to go into debt in the future. But to really say like, hey, we want to make a difference in our community in the future, but we want to make a difference in the community now. So we are taking 10% of what’s coming into this campaign and we’re partnering with an organization called 10:12 Sports. Mike Winger — It’s a Christian organization that serves underprivileged youth in West Baltimore, primarily men who grow up in like fatherless situations and they use sports to reach out to this community, whether it be football, basketball, whatever. And they do memory verses, they do sports, all the things. Mike Winger — And so we’re coming alongside of them because they were operating out of the the the president of that organization they were operating out of his basement.
Rich Birch — Oh, wow.
Mike Winger — And so they were actually able to buy three row homes across from where they do ministry because there’s so many vacant row homes in Baltimore, so you can buy them for like a thousand bucks. But they didn’t have the money to do any renovations. So we committed to give 10% of the overall of the campaign to them. So we’re going to renovate and just come alongside and help them run further and faster than what they could do on their own. And we want to prop them up to be the heroes in the community and make a difference. And so, like I said, we want to make a difference in 25 years, but we also want to make a difference this year. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. What do you have a sense of, and this may be unfair. I didn’t tell I was going to ask you this question, a percentage of the church that participated or like any of that to get a sense of the, the depth of the, you know, the engagement. Mike Winger — Oh yeah. So it’s all written down. I’m so bad remembering the stats off the top of my head, but it’s it’s it was… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fine. No, no, that’s fine. Mike Winger —…it was pretty high. I’m gonna see if I can find it after keep talking. Rich Birch — Yeah, no, that’s great. That’s… Mike Winger — But it was it was a it was ah it was a large amount of people. Like I look at it in terms of family units that are giving.
Rich Birch — Yep. Mike Winger — And so we had 557 family units commit. Rich Birch — That’s great. That’s great. That’s amazing. Dude, that’s incredible. That’s, ah yeah, that’s that’s great to hear and great to see, you know, what God’s using to kind of push this forward. That’s that’s amazing. Rich Birch — Now, I’m sure, so that’s all the good news, but, you know, campaigns do get resistance. Mike Winger — Yeah. Rich Birch — There is the like, why are we doing this? It’s not all just, you know, hear we love the punchline, but there’s always usually some stuff we’ve got to push through there. What were some of the objections you or fears you heard from people? How’d you address them? What does that look look like? You know, how did you deal with that side of the equation? Mike Winger — Yeah. So when we were doing this for a year prior, we knew that we were doing this in October of going into November of 2024. So in our nation’s history, that’s election time. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Mike Winger — And we live in like Washington, DC. Rich Birch — Yes. Mike Winger — Like it’s like the world news is our local news. Rich Birch — It is going to be it. Love it. Mike Winger — And so we, we, we had some people advise like, you don’t know, like we, maybe we shouldn’t do it. You probably not a wise time to do a campaign. And we heard that. And we just said, what if we want to tell a better story than the typical narrative of people being anxious about something that really can’t control outside of their one vote. But what if we can actually cast the vision to our church that doing it during the campaign to actually make a bigger difference is going to be the perfect time to do it. And people responded to that. Mike Winger — So that was kind of one early on. Should we do this campaign during an election season? And then there’s always people that are going to ask questions like, is this the best time to do it because, you know, the economy. Rich Birch — Right, right. Mike Winger — But like, what does that even mean?
Rich Birch — Yes.
Mike Winger — Who can actually really even say what the economy is anymore?
Rich Birch — Right. Mike Winger — But like, so we kind of joked about that. We heard some people say, well, we just did one of these like eight years ago. Should we be doing it again? And I’m like, well, we’ve had so much turnover in our church.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mike Winger — There’s probably only 25% of our church who’ve actually even been through one. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Mike Winger — So we just coached a lot of people through it. And we had so many great conversations with people. And I could stand in front of people in integrity and say like, hey, if you and your spouse, because I would meet with people individually. And I was like, if you and spouse are at odds about like what the total amount should be, give the lesser amount.
Rich Birch — Wow. Mike Winger — I’m not after your, I’m not after your money here.
Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Mike Winger — Like, I want to know like, what’s the heart story? What’s the sacrifice story that the money is representative of? Rich Birch — Yeah. Mike Winger — And so we constantly had those conversations like what, okay, tell me the dollar amount, but I want to know what are you trusting God what is this number representing? Mike Winger — And so we’d had constant conversations with people. There was one single woman who her husband left her many years ago and I had a conversation with her and she just wanted to like write a bigger check, but the man who helps with her finances to keep her organized was kind of, he’s not a Christian and was a little leery about like saying you should give X amount. Mike Winger — I said, you know what? I’m going to tell you to give even lesser than what he said, because I don’t know what kind of influence you’re going to have in his life. But if he hears that a church said, take even less, maybe that’s going to be an in for him to trust the church. Mike Winger — And so my mindset from the jump was just like, Hey, I’m going to trust God for the end results. And I’m just going to just tell people to like, act in integrity with what they’re going to do. And like, let’s hear the stories of trust that people are going to be building through this experience. Rich Birch — I love that. I want to underline what you said there. I think, my experience has been when we come up against these opportunities that our mindset as leaders is so important and how we approach people is so important. And um if we say this isn’t about just trying to get money out of you, but then all the signals we give them are about just getting money out of them… Mike Winger — Yeah. Rich Birch — …people read that from a mile away, right?
Mike Winger — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And we’re asking them to take a faith step financially, but we’re also taking a faith step and we have to exercise exactly what the kind of thing you’re saying. Like, hey, maybe you should take, maybe give the lesser number like that. I just love that. I just want to honor you for that. I think that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — The other part I want to underline for folks that you’ve just kind of rolled over, ah which makes sense because it’s it’s your lived experience, is the amount of time that this campaign has taken from like the initial conversation through to the kind of whatever the big pledge date was. That’s like, that was like a couple years of discussion, right?
Mike Winger — Yeah. Rich Birch — Talk us through that piece of it. Cause I feel like sometimes there are churches that feel the pressure of like, we got to solve this now. But it’s like, that’s, if you’re feeling that pressure now, you’re probably too late. Like, you know, we you’ve got to start way out. Talk us through the kind of timeline, you know, how long did it take to work through it all? Get it put together, that kind of thing. Mike Winger — Yeah, so I remember being on the golf course with John and we were probably on like hole four or five. And I said, hey, like you’re just coming back from your study break. I’ve been doing some planning, love forecasting three years in advance. But do you remember when you said that you want to make an impact on Route One? And what if we had a dream center? What if we could change lives and all that? I was like, if you’re really about it, here’s what I think we need to do. We had that conversation probably in like June of ’23. Rich Birch — Yeah. Mike Winger — Actually, probably even before that…
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Mike Winger — …because we we pitched to our our board of, hey, we feel like this is where God’s leading us. Will you join us in prayer? So we pitched it to them in May of ’23. So John and I talked before that. We didn’t even make a decision as a board to move forward with this until September. So we gave our board of overseers…
Rich Birch — Yeah, lots of time.
Mike Winger — …a full summer to just pray and feel like, is this is the is the soil right? God, are you prompting, or is this just me coming up with an idea, saying that we should run after it? So we I did the due diligence to come up with a full outline of here’s the steps we would take. We’re going to pause and commit this to you. And if you we all come back together in September and say, yeah, we should move forward, then we will. That was still a year out from even executing the five week series. Rich Birch — Right. Mike Winger — So we were way far in advance of like prayers. We’re going to coat this thing in prayer. And then we’re going to start working in September through the next year to make that campaign actually happen. Mike Winger — So this was a really like a two, two and half year process…
Rich Birch — Right.
Mike Winger — …before we even get to the 25 months…
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.
Mike Winger — …of actually living in sacrifice. Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s, that’s pre the 25-month countdown.
Mike Winger — Exactly.
Rich Birch — So yeah, in the end it’s a four or five year process, you know, but from, from that golf course all the way through. Yeah. And I, I highlight that, listeners, because um you know, this takes time. And you know, there are, you know, there’s a multiplicity of steps before the public phase and, you know, you know, they’re, they’re everything from, you know, all the private conversations all the way up through this. It takes time. You cannot, you know, had a friend of mine said the bigger the plane, you know, the longer the runway, it just takes time. It takes, it you know, you can’t just do it overnight. It’s not the kind of thing you can wake up tomorrow and say, Hey, let’s raise $8 million dollars. It’s not going to happen. Mike Winger — Yeah. Rich Birch — You’ve given us your generosity guide. This looks fantastic. In fact, I would, we’ll just link to this in the show notes, but this is a great kind of inside look to the campaign and to the at least the public facing side of it. Talk us through this. Give us a sense of of this document. How might it be helpful for someone else who who’s been thinking about these kinds of issues? Mike Winger — Yeah. So from my experience of participating and leading other campaigns that we’ve gone through, one of my critiques has been, I hate handouts and getting so many different things at so many different dates. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Mike Winger — And I was like, why don’t we just work ahead? Let’s work smarter, not harder. Rich Birch — Yep. Mike Winger — Let’s not overwhelm people and confuse them with, is it this handout? Is it that handout? It’s like, let’s just spend the four months before we go live and say, what is every single piece of paper document that we want and put it all into one spot? Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Mike Winger — But this this guide isn’t just information about how to give or the tax implications and all this sort of thing. We wanted to integrate it with what the series was going to be about on Sunday. So on Sundays, we rarely even mentioned, like we talked about, hey, we have a financial goal, but the even the sermons were more about what’s God doing in you, and stirring up. And so then we made sure that all of our groups for the fall are all on the same thing. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Mike Winger — We’re all we’re not doing a volleyball group. We’re not doing FPU. We’re not doing… We’re all doing these journey groups. We’re going to just come together and answer these questions so everybody’s pushing to it. And then we also created like a daily devotional. Mike Winger — So everybody like page by page, like, you know, for the next five weeks, we’re going on a campaign, but it’s really a journey together. And so there’s questions. There’s everything is 100% in order of like day by day, what do I want people to see when and how. And there’s we’ve gave these we’ve printed them out. We wanted people to bring them back. And like this is where you would take notes in the sermon and then have your daily devotional, but then also bring it to group. Uh, ’cause we were talking about like timelines, like what’s mosaics timeline then, but what’s, what’s God been doing in your own life and then bring that conversation. So we even equipped our group leaders with like big rolls of, uh, paper.
Rich Birch — Love it. Mike Winger — And we said, make a timeline and then go through and have a conversation for the group of like, just introduce yourself and you and your spouse and talk about your family timeline. Rich Birch — So good. Mike Winger — So this guide was just so important to get everybody rowing in the same direction. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. It’s a great piece. You know, I, I love the, like throughout it, there’s, um, you know, like a little testimonies sprinkled throughout.
Mike Winger — Yes.
Rich Birch — There’s lot of content right down to like, here are the special events we’re doing. Here’s everything all in one place. There’s a ton of work that’s been put in up there. Are you using that kind of throughout the campaign too? Cause a part of this, I would assume a part of this is also, um, you know, you used as people who are, might be coming to the church new now. And they’re like, Hey, what is this all about? This could be a tool you could give to them as well. Mike Winger — Yeah, we could definitely dust it off and give it to them. We haven’t done a great job of like incorporating it since we’ve like gone live for the previous seven months. Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mike Winger — But we do have a plan like midway through of this fall doing a three week series of like a halfway point…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mike Winger — …encourage people to keep going, give them an update, and then inviting people in who and may have joined the church or started coming since then. But we haven’t necessarily, like it was really just like for the 35 days of this campaign journey how are we all going to be on the same page? Rich Birch — Right. So good. Well, this is fantastic. Well, um there’s ah a lot here. There’s also a website we’ll link to, we’ll link to your, you know, the direct website, but then your church’s website, but then there’s also a campaign related website. It’s is’s super helpful. Lots of good. And that video I talked about earlier is on that ah site friends. Rich Birch — Anything else you’d like to share just as we wrap up today’s conversation? Mike Winger — I would say if I’m speaking to primarily executive pastors, I would say our excitement behind something like this is a lot of the how. I love executing. I love thinking of how to make a plan come to reality, but it has to come with vision first. Rich Birch — That’s good. Mike Winger — So you have to make sure that you know why you’re doing something and like what the goal is. Like I said, our goal was not to just raise funds. Our goal is to change lives spiritually, but physically as well. Mike Winger — And so that’s what I want to accomplish. It’d be like me going to the store, a construction store, go to Lowe’s and buying a hammer. The goal wasn’t to get the hammer. The goal is to use the hammer to build something. Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. Mike Winger — And so the campaign, I’m inviting people in to use a hammer, not go buy something. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. It’s great. Super good. Well, I appreciate you being here, Mike. This is super great. Where do we want to send people online if they want to track with you or with the church? Mike Winger — Yeah, so mosaicchristian.org is our website, mosaicmd on Instagram. And I’m kind of not that active on Instagram, but it’s just mwinger87. So I’m right there. Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Mike. Appreciate being here today. Mike Winger — Thank you.
Why Christmas Can Still Be the Biggest Service of the Year At Your Church
Jul 07, 2025
Is your church treating Christmas like the massive growth opportunity it truly is?
In today’s solo episode, Rich explores why Christmas remains the most strategic moment in the church calendar for reaching new people, even in a post-pandemic world. Drawing on compelling stats and years of experience helping churches grow, Rich makes a compelling case for why Christmas shouldn’t just be a warm, nostalgic season—it should be one of your highest-impact outreach moments of the year.
Here’s what you’ll learn in this episode:
Cultural Opportunity: With 84% of adults celebrating Christmas, this holiday season still holds a unique cultural weight—even among those who rarely attend church. Rich explains how this opens the door for meaningful invitations and deeper community connections.
The Power of a Personal Invite: Research shows that 57% of people say they would attend a church service if personally invited by a friend. Rich reflects on why this stat matters so much during Christmas and how churches can reframe their planning around it.
Growth Mindset Shift: Many churches unintentionally miss the full potential of Christmas by treating it as a “maintenance” Sunday or simply a tradition to uphold. Rich unpacks why growing churches view it as a launchpad for the new year—and how that shift can change everything.
What Growing Churches Do Differently: You’ll hear stories and observations from churches that have doubled their attendance on Christmas weekend—not because of gimmicks, but through strategic, intentional systems that align vision, volunteer culture, and invite momentum.
Planning Starts Now: While it might seem early to talk about Christmas, Rich makes the case that what you do this summer determines how effective you’ll be this December. From team conversations to invite campaigns, now is the time to prepare.
This episode is a reminder and a rally cry: Christmas still works when you work it.
This episode is part 1 of a special 3-part series designed to help your church plan ahead for Christmas, starting this summer. Whether you’re looking to increase attendance, improve your systems, or reach more people than ever before, this series is packed with insights to help you make the most of the biggest season of the year. Be sure to catch all three episodes!
Leading Through Stress Without Burning Out with Charles Stone
Jul 03, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Dr. Charles Stone, seasoned pastor, author, and leadership coach.
Feeling overwhelmed by the constant demands of ministry? Looking for biblical practices that can help reduce anxiety and fuel long-term health? Tune in as Charles shares insights from his latest book, Stress Less, blending timeless biblical wisdom with modern brain science to help leaders build resilience and manage stress more effectively.
Two sides of the coin. // Charles defines stress as both the events we face and our responses to those events. While acute stress can motivate and alert us, chronic stress is damaging—affecting memory, sleep, emotional balance, and ultimately our ability to lead effectively. The goal is to build resilience, the ability to bounce back, grow, and adapt when under pressure.
Nine resilience-building practices. // In Stress Less, Charles outlines nine resilience-building practices drawn from both scripture and science: breathing, emotions, thinking patterns, contemplative practices, cultivating certainty, gratitude, relationships, and sleep. Each habit targets a key area of health and renewal for stressed-out leaders.
Breathe to reset. // One simple yet powerful tool is deep breathing. When we breathe deeply—especially with a longer exhale—we activate the vagus nerve, which signals our brain to lower the stress response. Charles encourages using the “sniff breath” (a double inhale followed by a long exhale) to quickly calm the body and mind in tense moments.
Meditate on Him. // Neuroscience has found that spiritual practices like prayer, meditating on God’s word, and contemplation on Him promotes the relaxation response and decreases the stress response in our bodies. Charles uses the CASI acronym as a framework for contemplative spiritual practices that lower stress and deepen our faith. CASI stands for: Collaboration with God, Awe and Wonder (through worship), Sabbath Rest, Identity in Christ. These habits reinforce the biblical truth that we are not alone in our struggles.
STOPP to deal with stress. // Ministry can be very stressful and never ending. Experiencing stressful circumstances is normal. To counteract reactive leadership under stress, remember to STOPP: Stop, Take a Breathe, Observe your thoughts and what’s happening around you, Pray, and Proceed. This helps leaders shift from stress-induced reactions to thoughtful, faith-rooted responses.
Optimize Your Schedule // Know your body’s natural rhythm. Are you a morning “lark” or a night “owl”? Plan your most mentally demanding work during your peak focus hours and save administrative or routine tasks for lower-energy periods. Aligning your work with your internal rhythms enhances productivity and reduces burnout.
Practical tools for your team. // Charles designed Stress Less to be used in community. Each chapter ends with questions, making it a perfect resource for staff teams to walk through together. Stress doesn’t have to define us—it can refine us. By integrating biblical truth with practical neuroscience, pastors and church leaders can find hope, healing, and strength for the journey.
Learn more about Charles Stone’s book, Stress Less: 9 Habits from the Bible and Brain Science to Build Resilience and Reduce Anxiety, here. Plus view all the resources Charles offers on his website at charlesstone.com.
Thank You for Tuning In!
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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church
Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it!
Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church!
Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Well, hey friends, welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re really looking forward to today’s conversation. Today we’re diving into something we all wrestle with: stress. And how we can actually build resilience and find peace in the middle of a crazy, busy ministry schedule. Rich Birch — I’m thrilled to have Charles Stone with us. Dr. Charles Stone, he’s a pastor on the podcast, and you know when we have repeat guests, that means I think you should be paying attention to him. Charles is a seasoned pastor, a leadership coach, and author of many books, but today is a particularly timely and deeply practical book called Stress Less. Rich Birch — Charles, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Charles Stone — Rich, great to be with you again. Rich Birch — Always great to connect. Why don’t you kind of fill in the picture for folks that don’t listen to every episode? So like my mom, she can skip the next 30 seconds, but for folks that don’t listen to every episode, give us kind of the Charles story. Charles Stone — You bet, you bet. Well, for Canadian listeners, I spent 10 years in Canada at leading West Park Church in London, Ontario. Great experience. We moved to Laurel, Mississippi a couple of years ago, and it’s a little town where my wife grew up. We’ve been married coming up on 45 years.
Rich Birch — Good for you. Congratulations. Charles Stone — Yeah, which is the delight of my life. Three adult kids. My son has five kids, so I have five grandkids. He’s in Boise, Idaho as a pastor.
Rich Birch — Nice.
Charles Stone — My oldest daughter’s in California, and my youngest, real proud of her. She got a dual citizenship. She stayed in London. So I’m kind of a normal guy, kind of a geek, love to learn, go to bed early, get up early. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it.
Charles Stone — That’s kinda me.
Rich Birch — The thing I’ve loved about, and we’re going to get into some of this today, but one of the things I love is your kind of area of, I like to call it specialty or expertise, is really this whole area of kind of brain science.
Charles Stone — Yep, yep.
Rich Birch — How does that connect with what we’ve known in scripture for years? We’re really going to dive into that today. So many leaders feel overwhelmed.
Charles Stone — Yep, yep.
Rich Birch — I know there are folks that are listening in, anytime we kind of scratch this topic, people lean in and they’re interested, but they really can’t put their finger on why. How would you define stress in simple terms for someone who feels like, man, they’re just not holding it all together? Charles Stone — Yeah, great, great question. I answer it kind of in two or three levels. Just imagine I have a coin in front of me, the proverbial two sides of a coin. On one side of the stress coin is the stress event. What causes stress? That’s something out there, or even sometimes what we make up in our mind. So that’s one side of the coin. Charles Stone — The other side is how we respond. Now, some of the responses are just automatic, but basically our behavioral response and how we think about stress. So those are the two sides of stress. Charles Stone — Another point about stress and kind of unpacking this definition is that there are two flavors. There’s acute stress. It’s like, I’ve had a couple of interviews where the sound did not work starting out. My stress went up, so I was in solution mode, trying to figure it out, and then once I figured it out, it came back down. We all have acute stress. It motivates us. It gets us going. So there’s acute stress, but the bad stuff is called chronic stress. Charles Stone — When our response to some stress event, either in our mind or out there is over a pair of days, weeks, months, that causes the problem. Now, having said that, here’s the definition of stress. It’s our body, it’s the way God’s wired us, our body and brain’s natural response to real or perceived threats or demands. And pastors have a bunch of them. Rich Birch — Right, absolutely. Yeah, I love that. And you’ve already kind of hinted towards where I want to go in this conversation. One of the things I love about this book, Stress Less, is how you blend biblical insight and neuroscience, these two things together, and you mentioned it right there. Can you kind of help us unpack that a little bit? God has designed us with this.
Charles Stone — Yeah. Right. Rich Birch — This is like a normal thing in our bodies. God’s put stress in there for a reason, but what does the Bible kind of speak to stress, even though it may not use that exact word? Charles Stone — Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, we’ve all heard the phrase, all truth is God’s truth, and here’s a way I kind of explain that. Imagine an umbrella. That’s God’s word. That’s truth, capital T. All other truth falls underneath that, like engineering principles are true.
Rich Birch — Right. Charles Stone — Math is true. Good science is true, small case “t”.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Charles Stone — I think St. Augustine and Calvin and others have said all truth is God’s truth, so I’m not afraid of that, but I always had that umbrella idea.
Charles Stone — Now, when it comes to stress, in the most common versions, you don’t find the word. Now, in the New Living Translation, there’s one verse I’m going to have on my screen here. Let me read it to you. It’s Psalm 119:143. It does include the word stress. It says, as pressure and stress bear down on me, I find joy in your commands. But you only find that a couple of times in the NLT, a couple of times in the Message paraphrase. Charles Stone — However, all throughout scripture, you have these similar words that cause stress, that describe what causes stress: tribulation, persecution, burdens, testing, and temptation. So the concept is all throughout. The tribulations of life, although it doesn’t use the word stress, those cause stress, so it’s really all through the Bible without using the word. Rich Birch — Yeah, like when we think of, I like how you kind of pulled apart chronic stress and acute stress, this idea that, and I think we can, I’m sure leaders that are listening in can, like you say, with the podcast, when the tech didn’t work, they could think of something in the last 24 hours that drove acute stress. But chronic stress, help us unpack that a little bit. What impact is that having on us as leaders or on our teams? What is that doing to us? Charles Stone — Yep. Well, when we’re under chronic stress, that is, we’re responding in ways that cause this chronic stress. What it does, it causes the brain to release the stress hormone, cortisol. Now, we need cortisol. It’s not a big bad bully of hormones. We still need it. But when we stay at an elevated level for long periods of time, it does its damage to our body and our brain. Some of the things that it impacts, it impairs our memory. It impairs our thinking. It reduces motivation. It actually harms our body, can affect our heart. We can gain weight, affects blood sugar, disrupts our sleep, magnifies emotional pain, and lowers our reactivity threshold. And it actually degrades our ministry effectiveness because we aren’t fully present there. And because we have a lot of cognitive stuff going on, worry, rumination, those kinds of things, that detracts from being able to lead well.
Charles Stone — So we live in a world of stress, but I think it’s really acute for pastoral leaders and leaders in even the business world as well. Rich Birch — Right. Absolutely. And so what are we supposed to do then? So we live in this pressure. How does the Bible help us understand? I like that you point towards this: Hey, this is an ancient problem. What are the kind of solutions that have been around for a long time? How does the Bible talk about this? And then how does that relate to what we know is best in science today? Charles Stone — Well, the response we want to develop is the term I use that I call resilience. That’s really another term for character. Romans 5, 3 and 4 says we also rejoice in suffering because we know that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance: character, and character: hope. Charles Stone — And Rich, here’s the way I describe resilience. When I was a kid, I loved show and tell. I loved show and tell, I loved lunch, and I loved recess. And show and tell just basically captures the way God created our brains. We’re very visual. Here’s the way I describe resilience, which is what we want to develop in the face of stress. Charles Stone — Let’s say I was at a speaking event, and I was explaining this, and I had a prop on stage, and it was a glass table, like a glass end table. And I had three things in my hand. One was a big rock, one was an egg, and one was a tennis ball. Charles Stone — And so I asked the audience, okay, so I’m going to hold this rock up six feet above the table and drop it. What’s going to happen? Well, it’s going to break. It’s going to shards are going to go everywhere. I won’t be called back to that venue again to speak. Charles Stone — So that would happen there. Now with the egg, if I drop the egg, what’s going to happen? It’s going to break and just make a mess. Some people respond to stress in that way. They don’t have resilience, so they just break stuff. They can break churches. They can break their health. They can break families.
Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Charles Stone — Others are like the egg. They don’t have any resilience. They break up, and they make a mess of things, mess of churches, mess of boards, all that kind of stuff. Charles Stone — But then the other item I bring in, tennis ball. Used to play tennis. Don’t play anymore. If I drop the tennis ball down, what’s going to happen? It’s going to bounce back up. Now, if you Google slow-mo tennis ball, you’ll see these really cool videos of someone throwing a tennis ball, and the camera follows it. Now, here’s what it does. That ball squashes a little bit, and then it bounces back up. Charles Stone — So resilience, the big picture thing responding to stress is developing resilience, which is our ability to bounce back from stressful situations. But not just bounce back, but adapt and learn, grow, character. So that’s the starting point. And then I describe in the book these specific ways that we can build resilience and deal with stress. Rich Birch — I love that. That’s a very visual metaphor you’re using there. I love that there. Let’s unpack a little bit, if there are some habits that we should be building or helping our people build around resilience. I think this is such a critical and important piece of the puzzle for us. Charles Stone — You bet. Well, the genesis of this conversation, this book, A Road Stressed Last, came from when I was a pastor up in London, Ontario. And my wife and I were on this vacation. It had buffets everywhere, and I love buffets. It was a great vacation. Except one thing, it had Wi-Fi everywhere. I’m a news junkie. I had my nose in my iPhone way too much. And this thing called COVID kept rising up in the news. Charles Stone — I said, Cheryl, they’re going to shut us down. And they did. You were there, you know, the draconian shut down for months and months and months. And I distinctly remember that I was going to now have to lead a church of a thousand through a little tiny pinhole camera on my computer. And I said, you know, God, I didn’t sign up for this. Well, during that time, I was diagnosed having an AFib. That’s when your heart rate does not beat right. I was diagnosed with pre-diabetes. And I exercise, I eat right. And I was diagnosed with cancer all during these few months. Rich Birch — Oh, my goodness. Charles Stone — The irony was, I was doing a PhD dissertation on stress. So I thought, well, God, you have a sense of humor.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Charles Stone — I guess that I’m going to be a lab rat. And that was kind of the genesis of this book and these nine resilience-building practices. So that’s a little bit of background that we can go a little deeper on those practices. Rich Birch — Well, I love that. First of all, that’s like the preacher who’s, and this happens to me when I speak. I feel like the thing that I’m preaching on, it’s like the Lord sends in my direction. Like, man, I got to be thinking about that. I used to joke with preachers. I’m like, we got to preach about like health and wealth and maybe something magical will happen, you know, as opposed to that. Rich Birch — That’s incredible. All of those things coming in on you in a, you know, we all carried the stress of COVID, but all that cancer and, wow, that’s crazy.
Charles Stone — Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rich Birch — So what, what are, maybe quickly outline the nine and then if you wouldn’t mind, and then maybe we could jump in on one of them and kind of talk, talk about one. Charles Stone — Yeah. Well, I kind of get thematically. One involves how we breathe. These are, these are practices that can help us develop resilience. One has to do with how we breathe. Two have to deal with our emotions. One has to do with our thinking. One has to do with contemplative practices, you know, spiritual practices. One has to do with something called certainty. One has to do with gratitude. One has to do with relationships, and one has to do with sleep. So any of those, I’m game for any of those that you feel like we had a touch on one or two of them. Rich Birch — Well, what about maybe breathing? Why don’t we start right at the top where you started? And, and, and then, you know, we’ll scratch the surface. There’s a ton we could, we obviously, we want people to pick up a copy of the book, but let’s start with breathing. That might be kind of interesting. Charles Stone — Yep. Well, actually this ended up being the first one because it’s very easy to do. Now, if you, I think around 75 times plus, you’ll find the word breath or breathe in the scripture. And Genesis, God breathed into Adam. He became a living being. I think his early part of Acts, Jesus breathed on the early church, the Holy Spirit came. And then David, the psalmist wrote, let everything that has breath, praise the Lord. Charles Stone — Now here’s the interesting neuroscience insight. Deep breathing activates a key set of nerves that come directly from my brain. It doesn’t come from my spinal cord, but these are, these are key nerves. They’re in pairs. One of them is called the vagus nerve, comes from the word vagrant. What does the vagrant do? He wanders around. So this nerve wanders around our hollow organs, our heart, our lungs, our stomach. So there’s a lot of communication back and forth. Charles Stone — Scientists have found that deep breathing, especially on the exhale, when you exhale a little longer, it actually engages this nerve, which lowers the stress response. And here’s, here’s where you practice it. I call it the sniff breath. Charles Stone — Now, the actual term is a psychological sigh, but here’s how it would work when you’re facing some stress. Just breathe in, you know, a little more and then breathe out through your mouth. Now on the out breath, you want to be a little longer than the in breath. Doing that three or four or five times. Labs all around the country found it lowers the stress response.
Rich Birch — Wow. Charles Stone — So that is a simple, a portable tool you can take, anybody can use, anywhere. So yeah…
Rich Birch — Love it. I love that. Charles Stone — That’s a good one. Rich Birch — I’m sure there’s people listening right now, thousands of church leaders across the country as we’re driving into work, you know, breathing deeply. I love that idea. I’ve heard that before that. Rich Birch — And I’ve, when people have led kind of the breathing exercises where it’s, you breathe in and then you keep going. It’s that kind of extended. That’s interesting.
Charles Stone — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rich Birch — Interesting. Well, that’s cool. Now you also talked about contemplative practices as one of those. Why don’t you unpack that one? Talk me through that. Charles Stone — Yes. Well, the practice I call it a soak your soul. You look at the life of Jesus. He was God in the flesh, perfect in every way, but he’s often spending time alone with his father. Mark 1:35 says Jesus regularly withdrew to spend time with his heavenly father. Got it before everybody else got up. Charles Stone — What neuroscience has found that spiritual practices like prayer, like meditating on God’s word, on God’s greatness, like contemplation promotes the relaxation response and decreases the stress response. And there’s a little acronym I use. It’s called C-A-S-I, CASI, that would be the application. Charles Stone — One is understand that when we face stress, our response must be collaboration with God. And this comes from a guy named Paul Gaumont. And he calls it religious coping. Three ways that we respond when we face stress. God, I got it. God, you just take care of it. Or in a partnership with God. Now, it’s not 50-50, obviously. But if we’re going to be able to really leverage these key spiritual practices, we must see ourselves as a partner with God. Charles Stone — That “C” stands for collaboration with God. “A” stands for awe and wonder. That’s worship. Science tells us when we worship, it decreases the stress response. So “C” is collaboration with God. “A” is awe and wonder. “S” is Sabbath rest. And we know about Sabbath. Then the final one, “I” stands for your identity in Christ, reflecting on your identity in Christ. Charles Stone — So that little acronym, C-A-S-I, gives a brief outline of some of these spiritual practices that the science and of course, scripture too. It’s amazing how science is catching up with scripture. It tells us it really helps us with these stressful experiences. Rich Birch — Yeah. Amazing. This is fantastic. We’ll get to where people can pick up the book and all that, but I know this will be super helpful for people. I know there’s a lot of pastors, leaders who are leading people. Either they feel stuck in this kind of work, stress, burnout, repeat.
Charles Stone — Yeah. Rich Birch — It’s a treadmill that they do not know how to get off of, or we see our people on that treadmill. It’s almost like they’re addicted to stress. They’re addicted to that feeling. What would you just say to someone that just doesn’t know where to begin? How do we start this? How do we break that cycle? Charles Stone — Yeah. Well, I think first of all, acknowledging that ministry is very, very stressful. It’s never ending. We’ve got to have a deliverable every week or more than once a week. To experience stressful circumstances is a very normal part of living in a broken world. It just is. Charles Stone — Now, we spoke earlier, as we were going through this list, we focused on the breath. Well, another acronym, if you’re looking for a place to start, it’s the little acronym STOP, but with an extra P, S-T-O-P-P. The S stands for literally stop. Develop a discipline of stopping in the midst of your stress.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Charles Stone — Pulling away for a few moments. So, “S” is stop. “T” is take a breath. That’s that breathing I was talking about, the sniff breath. “O” stands for observe. Just really notice that. What is really going on inside of my mind? What’s going on around here? First “P” stands for pray. Lord, I’m in a stressful situation. Really need your grace right here. Then “P” is proceed. So, S-T-O-P-P. “S” for stop. “T”, take a breath. “O”, observe. “P”, pray. Proceed. A little acronym that you can start there. Charles Stone — Now, I’m going to add one more thing here. There’s a big word that everybody ought to understand, keep in mind. It’s called metacognition. Metacognition means to think about your thinking. So much of our stress is tied to our erroneous thinking, unhealthy thinking, worry, and ruminative thinking. Developing the discipline of building throughout your day to stop and notice the O is observe.
Rich Birch — What’s happening here? Yeah, yeah. Charles Stone — To ask yourself, just what am I thinking? Are these thoughts being sponsored by the evil one, being sponsored by my worry…
Rich Birch — Right, yeah.
Charles Stone — …or is the word of God informing them? Is truth informing them?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Charles Stone — So, metacognition is another tool. It’s another simple word. It’s a big word, but a simple way. But we have to remember to do it.
Now, what I do sometimes on my phone, I have it beep at me every hour, hour and a half to remind me, like, oh, okay, I need to step back. Okay, Charles, what are you thinking about? Oh, boy, you really need to change channels, don’t you? So that’s another simple tool. Just remember to do it. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Stop. I love that. And yeah, I would say part of my life’s journey, it’s been like, I wish, it’s a little embarrassing to say. I wish that this hadn’t been kind of a consistent conversation, I would say, with the Lord is, we are people who just react. We are humans who just, something happens and then react. Rich Birch — And I would say for years, decades, I’ve been asking the Lord: Lord, when something happens to me, give me the ability to just stop and observe and ask him, hey, what is it that you want in this moment? Not just to jump right to reaction, not just to jump to bias, to like, oh, hey, this is what we’ve got to do.
Rich Birch — I love that stop acronym as well for, I think we can be tempted as leaders to pile on our days, to go one thing to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, and that’s not good. Is there any kind of science around even how we schedule our days to help have more resilience around stress? Charles Stone — Yeah. I think it’s important to know kind of your, your pattern. First of all, your sleeping pattern, you know, some people are night owls, some people are, they’re called, you know, larks early. I’m an early riser. So you need to know that and try to build your day around that. If you, if your day, if you’re a night person, sleeping later is not a sinful thing.
Rich Birch — Right. Charles Stone — But if you’re not a night person like me, staying up is not a, is not a sinful thing. So understanding that. And secondly, just understanding how your cycles of your hormones travel throughout the day. Charles Stone — You probably know if you’re, if you pay attention to your productivity, there are certain periods when you’re most productive. I try to put my most productive time, my deep thinking time early in the morning. Now, some people that may be early afternoon. So being aware of where you’re most productive, partly protecting those times. And then the other times doing the kind of drudgery stuff, I got to answer emails, you know, do tactical stuff. So that’s a really helpful practice, I think. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Carey Nieuwhof talks about that kind of, you know, concept in his book, At Your Best. And I know that is, is a very simple framework, green zone, yellow zone, red zone. It has like burned in my brain. I know my red zone starts about three o’clock in the afternoon. I’m like, nothing good happens after three o’clock in my life, but it’s helpful to say like, and I, so now I’ve tried to like, even yesterday I had to go run some errands, get in the car, drive around town, do a few things. I just organized, Hey, that’s red zone time. Like I’m, let’s not sit down and think clearly time. That’s like, I got to go pick up some stuff, go to the store, do this kind of stuff…
Mindless kind of stuff.
Rich Birch — …mindless stuff. Um, you know, listen to a few podcasts, that kind of thing. Man, that’s, that’s critically important. Rich Birch — Now this book, let’s talk more specifically about Stress Less. I think when I see this, I think this could be a great tool that teams could use together to acknowledge with the people on our team. Hey, ministry is, uh, it’s, it’s a lot of work. I used to have a friend of mine who would say a ministry is a black hole. Rich Birch — And he would say that with like a, a fun kind of smile on his face. It’s like, when will the mission ever be done? When will we have reached everybody in town? When will every marriage be restored? When will every person come to know Jesus? It is never ending and we have to build resilience in the midst of that. I think this book could help us, um, wrestle that with our teams. Talk us through how you could see a team using this as a resource, um, as they’re kind of trying to lead our people. Charles Stone — Yeah, it can be very, uh, easily used like in staff meetings, first 10 minutes, take a chapter, you know, read it, read the week before and then interact around that because at the end of each chapter, I have some questions, some interactive questions. So they’re already there. You don’t have to spend a lot of cognitive or, you know, deep thinking time on that. Charles Stone — Read it, go through the questions. And I think it’d be very, very insightful. And, and of course, hold each other accountable when you’re going through those nine practices. Like, you know, how’d you do this week on this? How’d you do this week on that? And that’s always, you know, not in a pejorative way, but in a positive way and a developmental way. So yeah, easy to apply there. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s so good. Well, the book is called Stress Less: nine habits from the Bible and brain science to build resilience and reduce anxiety, biblically sound and research informed. I’m sure we can pick this up at Amazon. Are there other places we want to send people to pick up copies of this book? Charles Stone — I just tell everybody easy, Amazon, just search “stress less”. It’s right there, free shipping. And yeah, I don’t sell them myself.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Charles Stone — Just, just Amazon best place. Rich Birch — Yeah. Nice. I, like I say, friends, I do think this could be a great resource for a team. It could be great for, you know, like maybe you’re thinking about this fall. Hey, what’s the kind of a book we could read together? I do think this could be a little different. It pushes, it rings a different bell. That’s a part of what I like about your work is it’s like, that’s a fresh voice, a fresh perspective on this. You know, you can trust Charles. He’s, he’s, you know, biblically-sound backed up with great research. This is a fantastic resource, you know, for your people. Rich Birch — What does the future have for you? You know, Charles, as you look up over the horizon, as you’re looking at, you know, various, you know, things you’re working on, what’s next in the Charles Stone universe? Charles Stone — Well, I’m at the geyser age. I’m 70 now. So I’m just a geyser. Rich Birch — I don’t know about that. Charles Stone — Around the house. I’ll pull up my pants. You know, for me personally, I’m really working on health. I’m weight weights, resistance training.
Rich Birch — Good for you. Charles Stone — I row during the winter. I swim during the summer, working on getting appropriate protein, adding green to my morning smoothies. Because we age, we can’t avoid it.
Rich Birch — Right.
Charles Stone — Our bodies are temple of the Holy Spirit. So I’m really focusing on that.
Rich Birch — Good for you. Charles Stone — I’ve been thinking about getting another degree. I know there’s probably something more that I’d love to learn. Rich Birch — Oh, I love that. That’s fantastic. What are you thinking about getting another degree in? What would that, if you’re, you know, I won’t hold you to it. But what are you thinking about?
Charles Stone — Well, I really want to look at what is going on in our brain and how does that work with spiritual formation?
Rich Birch — Very cool.
Charles Stone — It’s like, there’s stuff going on inside of our brain that influence how we are formed and disciple. A lot of questions there. So when I’m swimming, I’m kind of thinking through that. So that’s, that’s another real interest. And I also mentioned to you earlier, we’re going to book on sleep in scripture. So tying those two together. Rich Birch — Nice. Very cool. Well, that’s, that’s fantastic. Well, just as we wrap up, what would you, what would your final encouragement be to us? Last thing we should be thinking about as we wrap up today’s episode. Charles Stone — Yeah. The final thing I’d say is stress need not define you, rather let it refine you. Stress need not define you, let it refine you.
Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. Charles Stone — I quoted Romans 5:3, 4. We also rejoice in suffering because we know the suffering produces perseverance, perseverance: character, and character: hope. And the second thing involves that last word, hope.
Charles Stone — Every single one of us absolutely can manage the effects of the stress response. We don’t have control over that stress event. Stuff happens. Life is difficult. But we absolutely have some tools that are Bible-based, evidence-based, science-based that can help us in a more healthier way, respond to stress. So those are the kind of two final things I’d say. Charles Stone — And by the way, Rich, if you go to my website, charlestone.com, there’s a little thing that comes up that says you can sign up for my blogs. When you do that, there’s a lot of free stuff. People can get totally free.
Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Charles Stone — And one of them is a template, like a 21-day or two-week building stress resilience. It’s free. It’s a good tool to go with the book. So that’s the one way that you can. Rich Birch — Yeah. And that’s charlestone.com. We want to send people there. That’s fantastic. Rich Birch — Charles, I just want to honor you to just do such great work. And I appreciate you being on today. Charles Stone — I appreciate your work, too. Rich Birch — And that final word there, I was like, oh, man, there’s so much packed in there. So friends, I would strongly suggest you pick up copies of “Stress Less”. Again, you can get that at Amazon: 9 Habits for Biblical from the Bible and Brain Science to Build Resilience and Reduce Anxiety from Charles Stone. It’ll be a great resource for you. Thanks so much, Charles. Appreciate being on today’s show. Charles Stone — Thanks, Rich.
Reaching Gen Z Starts with Rethinking Church with Russ Ewell
Jun 26, 2025
Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Russ Ewell, Executive Minister at Bay Area Christian Church (BACC) in California and founder of Deep Spirituality.
How can churches meaningfully engage and empower the next generation of leaders? With campuses across Silicon Valley and a deep commitment to developing future leaders, Russ shares the practical strategies BACC is using to integrate Gen Z into leadership while staying grounded in spiritual formation.
Build for the future while leading the present. // Many churches struggle to reach Gen Z because they unintentionally lead only within their own generational context. Resist the comfort of the status quo and instead build a culture that invests in young people while still meeting the needs of the present. This mindset shift is crucial to sustaining long-term health and growth.
Let relationship with God be the foundation. // The foundation of everything is a relationship with God. You can’t build the culture you need in your church unless everyone is focused on walking with God and obeying Him. Because the congregation at BACC was surrendered to what God wanted to do, they were eager to see the younger generation of leaders developed in the church.
Create a church culture that welcomes the next generation. // Gen Z needs to feel seen and heard in church life. Examine everything from the worship experience to leadership opportunities. By inviting young people to write songs, develop areas of focus, and make decisions, you create a space where the next generation is shaping the future of your church.
Make room for mistakes and growth. // Raising up young leaders means letting go of perfectionism and allowing space for failure. Russ models this by stepping back, staying quiet, and resisting the urge to micromanage. Through internships and mentorships, BACC provides young adults with practical experience and spiritual training—essential ingredients for long-term leadership development.
Deep Spirituality. // With Gen Z’s growing skepticism toward organized religion, Russ created Deep Spirituality—a digital resource platform filled with devotionals, podcasts, videos, and tools to help people explore faith on their own terms. The Best Life series, for example, offers life skills like goal-setting and financial literacy through a biblical lens, meeting Gen Z where they are.
Be intentional about developing leaders. // Bay Area Christian Church’s goal is for more than 50% of its leadership to come from Gen Z and Millennials. Russ is working directly with young couples and individuals to teach, mentor, and prepare them to lead. By investing early—in some cases, as young as 15—the church is building a deep leadership bench for the future.
Be adaptable and innovative. // Russ’s book, He’s Not Who You Think He Is, reflects on his journey from focusing on the church and its structure to focusing more on God and how His Spirit was moving. He encourages leaders to be adaptable and innovative—especially if they want to remain relevant and impactful in the 21st century.
Learn more about what’s happening at Bay Area Christian Church by visiting BACC.cc and check out the many resources Russ mentioned, including The Chemistry Lab newsletter, at deepspirituality.com. To connect with Russ and see what he’s doing with special needs kids, E-Life, and special needs adults, visit russewell.com. Plus, tune in to Gail Ewell’s unSeminary podcast episode, Beyond Accessibility: Gail Ewell’s Vision for Church Inclusivity.
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Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So excited for today’s conversation because we’re talking with someone who’s right in the thick of a conversation that I know that you and I are interested in – something that all of our churches should be wrestling through, which is reaching and raising up the next generation of church leaders. Russ Ewell is the Executive Minister at Bay Area Christian Church and the founder of a few innovative companies as well. Russ, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Russ Ewell — Thank you, Rich. Thanks for having me. It’s great to be here. Rich Birch — Oh, I’m so honored that you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the Russ Ewell picture, kind of tell us a little bit about yourself, tell us about your background, that sort of thing. Russ Ewell — Well, ultimately, it’s, you know, my life situation is always about team and family and people. So everything I’m doing in my life is doing with other people because that’s what God has done.
Russ Ewell — I am the executive minister, as you mentioned, of the Bay Area Christian Church. We’ve got nine campuses here in the Bay Area so that just about anyone, anywhere can get to one of our services, which is exciting. We have two lead minister couples. My wife and I are the executive minister and she’s the women’s ministry leader here. But we’ve got two lead ministers and their wives who lead the day-to-day work now. So we’ve been in the transition to a leadership for the future for a while. And that plays in, of course, to our topic today. Russ Ewell — I started out, though, in being an agnostic. And eventually, through a number of circumstances, ended up finding the Bible and reading the New Testament for the first time in college as a sophomore. And that’s when I became a Christian. And it was a couple of years later, I decided not to go into politics and instead to do this.
Rich Birch — Nice. Russ Ewell — And so part of that, I loved chemistry. I’ve just recently started the chemistry lab newsletter. I love chemistry and I wanted to be a scientist at first and then politics and then ended up in the ministry. So it’s a little bit of a journey. But that has led us to be in Silicon Valley. That’s where we are in the Bay Area. And we’ve developed, obviously built the church here and it’s been a great church. We have great people in our church, great leaders.
Russ Ewell — But also, we’ve built an eLife ministry, which basically is for inclusion of kids and adults with special needs and the community. It includes sports, it includes all kinds of different things from tutoring to buddies to being able to go to our camps. And our camps are inclusive, our teen devotionals are inclusive, our campus devotionals are inclusive. We’re really into that. And that’s been a big part of helping our young, the younger people in our church, I think, find enthusiasm about doing good.
Russ Ewell — And that’s really the basic focus and model of the Bay Area Christian Church, is we’re a church that believes in making God known and doing good. And you mentioned the company. I started one for my boys and people like them that have speech challenges, that develops inclusive software and utilizes tools in the market to be able to see how they can be part of being inclusive software.
Russ Ewell — So there’s a number of different things we do. And Deep Spirituality, which I think we may talk about later, which is a place we’ve created for people who don’t go to church maybe or don’t know how they feel about God. They can learn about spirituality there and learn about God and learn about the Bible there. And do it in a way that is, I think we try anyway, relatable and relevant to their day-to-day life. Rich Birch — Love it. We’re definitely going to get to Deep Spirituality. I want to make sure we connect with that. Rich Birch — But we want to start, I want to start with the Gen Z question. You’ve said that churches often want to reach Gen Z or lead with Gen Z, have them a part of the conversation, but actually are struggling to do it. What do you think we’re missing when it comes to understanding this generation? Russ Ewell — Well, I think church leadership is a challenge. And I think sometimes that people outside of churches don’t always understand even how that works. But inside church, even sometimes people don’t understand how it works. It’s very difficult for a leader of a church to go outside of the demographic of his current membership, so to speak, or the body. Russ Ewell — So if he’s in a church that the median age is 40, then it’s going to be real difficult to do a great job reaching people who are 15…
Rich Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — …while also reaching people who are 50. And one of the reasons for that is that when you speak, teach, and put together everything you do to make the gospel known and to meet the needs of people in the church, oftentimes we as leaders, we speak to our own generation first because that’s the most natural.
Rich Birch — True. Right. Russ Ewell — So I speak to a lot of people that are younger. So one of my favorite guys is Bruce Springsteen. I love Bruce Springsteen.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Russ Ewell — But when I mentioned Bruce Springsteen, you see blank faces. They’re like… Rich Birch — Sure, who? Russ Ewell — I think I heard about him and Washington and Adams and Hamilton. I think they’re the ones…
Rich Birch — One of the founding fathers.
Russ Ewell — Exactly. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s hilarious. Russ Ewell — Which I agree he’s a founding father. I’d put him right on it. Rich Birch — Him and Bono, all the founding fathers of rock and roll. Russ Ewell — That’s it. That’s how you figure it out. That’s how you know.
Rich Birch — That’s funny. Russ Ewell — So part of it, I think, is understanding or getting the culture of the church to understand that you always have to build for the future. Historically, you see a lot of churches that can get to 1,000, 5,000, 10,000, or 500, 250. But then once the people who were the leaders of that church or the founders of that church, once they get old enough, they no longer can do that. Their generation ages out, and suddenly you see no young people and these churches die out.
Rich Birch — That’s true. Russ Ewell — In fact, the building we own is a building that was a church that had, at one point done fairly well, but they had to sell it because once the current population of people got older and passed away or moved away, the church was no longer vibrant. So I think it’s essential that we do it. The challenges are, can we build a culture that says it is essential we build our future even while we build our present.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Russ Ewell — And will you have a body of people who say what’s most important is that we reach out, then we always meet our own needs. Because one of the challenges in a church, any organization, a company as well, they may have a software that’s selling great now, but when AI comes into the picture, that software is not going to be super relevant.
Rich Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — So you either build for the future or you end up dying. The phrase in Silicon Valley used to be used all the time, change or die. And so I think a lot of the challenges are, can you get yourself, ourselves, to be able to relate to and build for future, and can we build a culture in the church that does that? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I think a lot of church leaders, I think, would give mental assent to that. They’d be like, yes, that sounds like a great idea. I understand that the message of the gospel is one generation away from extinction. I’ve got to work to pass this thing on. I think you’ve done a good job at kind of outlining that problem. Rich Birch — What is it though that Bay Area Christian Church is doing to kind of structure in a way that’s actually helping to reach Gen Z and beyond? What’s that look like? Russ Ewell — So I think the foundation of everything, and I’ve listened to you before, so I know you agree with this. The foundation of everything, I think, is a relationship with God, and it sounds cliché, but the reality is that you can’t build the culture you need in your church unless everyone is 100% focused on walking with God and doing what God wants. And so the platform that we use, when I look at scriptures, 1 Corinthians 9, “become all things to all people”. Russ Ewell — And so one of the great things about our church is we have people that are 45, 55, 65 and older who believe deeply in the need to develop young leaders. And one reason they love it is it’s their kids. And so when you see your kids becoming Christians and then your kids contributing to leading the future, that’s exciting. So it starts with a relationship with God. Russ Ewell — Secondly, I think it starts with examining what does it feel like to walk into the church? I had a friend of mine come to church with me once, and he goes, man, all these songs are so old. Like, where do you get these songs from? I had never thought about that before, ever. Even when I was younger, I didn’t think about that because they’re classic spiritual songs and they are relevant and important. Russ Ewell — What we did during the pandemic when we were doing a live stream is we had a contest where we said, hey, we want to have a contest for writing new music. And we were going to give out prizes and awards for those who won. We had a top 10, I think it was. And what happened is about a half to three quarters of the winners turned out to be Gen Z people.
Rich Birch — So good. Russ Ewell — And so we now sing in our church songs that have been written by Gen Z. The same with everything, themes, what we focus on, projects we take on. We try to allow people that are younger to be a part of leading us, and they’re involved in decision making. So that means that when you have one of the campuses, and one of the goals we have is to at least get to 50% here in the next few years where we have Millennial and Gen Z leading the campuses. And we’re close to that right now. Russ Ewell — And I personally am working with my wife with three couples who fall right into that category. And so we’re building all the time to develop leaders, but that means you have to allow them into the decision making. And I made a lot of mistakes when I was that age. So you have to also allow mistakes. So you have to have a church that’s resilient. And instead of being critical of young leaders, you encourage them and you help them develop knowing that the mistakes they make today provide the experience they’ll need tomorrow to build the church. Rich Birch — That’s so good. And I wonder, I recently was listening to a kind of culture person talking about Silicon Valley culture specifically and said, you know, one of the unique innovations of the part of the world you’re from is it introduced this idea that mistakes are good, that we’ve got to make some mistakes along the way towards, and that there’s lots of cultures in the world where that just is not accepted. Like it’s like we can’t make a mistake, but enabling a church to say, yeah, it’s okay for us to take on for the greater good to take on next generation leaders. Rich Birch — That means we’re going to make a few mistakes along the way. There’s going to be a few bumps, but that’s okay. I think that’s incredible. That would be a big change for lots of churches. Maybe double click on that. What has that actually looked like for you as you’ve given away leadership to the next generation? What are you doing to ensure that we’re making appropriate level mistakes that aren’t blowing the whole thing up, that aren’t pushing the thing over the edge? Talk about that. Russ Ewell — Well, first of all, I have to deal with my own perfectionistic controlling behavior…
Rich Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — …that has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit or righteousness.
Rich Birch — Yes. That’s good.
Russ Ewell — It just has to do with my sinful nature and my human nature.
Rich Birch — So good.
Russ Ewell — So I first of all, have to deal with that. And I’ve not conquered that. So I can get worked up, bent out of shape by things that aren’t done the way I would do them or the way I think they should be done. So I have to first tackle myself. Russ Ewell — The other thing is that our church has allowed myself and others to grow here because I’ve made a lot of mistakes. And one of the things I love about the church is I can make mistakes in things I say. I can make mistakes and have us going in a certain direction and then have to change that direction. I just try to change it quickly.
Russ Ewell — And so I think they’ve already learned to do that because they’ve allowed those of us who lead here in the Bay Area Christian Church, they’ve allowed us to make tons of mistakes. And those mistakes have helped us develop the experience. Russ Ewell — And so I think part of what it is is more us, those of us who are older, being willing to say, let’s give the younger folks a chance to make mistakes. And so what it practically looks like, Rich, and your question is so great, is I have to be willing to stay out of the way, keep my mouth shut, not give off body language that says, “oh no”, not overreact, and be a great teacher. And that’s one of the things that I think has really challenged me, is that how great of a teacher am I? How good am I at helping someone maximize their potential and develop their skills and teach them from the ground up? How do you want… Russ Ewell — Like, for instance, this summer, we hired 17, what we call scholars and interns, men, young men, and 17 young women. And so we’ve got a total there of 34 this summer who will be interns and scholars, and they’re all Gen Z. And the whole idea is to give them a summer where we help them a little bit financially, but we also put them in situations and circumstances where they can be trained in how to be in the ministry. Russ Ewell — Now, they don’t have to go into the ministry. So we help them with their careers as well, their career path, but we’re trying to develop a group of people who have that experience. And so it looks like, I’ll just quickly enumerate it, one, me as a leader, letting go and not gripping and holding tight for control. Russ Ewell — Two, giving them the opportunity to make mistakes. Our church is already there, so we built that culture because we kind of have, as you said, Silicon Valley, but the whole Bay Area is pretty tolerant and friendly. And then three is giving them the financial support to be able to give them summers and years where they can have an opportunity to learn what it means to be spiritual and to make an impact on people. Rich Birch — Love it. Well, let’s pivot and talk a little bit about Deep Spirituality, this platform that you’ve launched and how does that fit into this whole idea of reaching a generation that lives online, that is, you know, is actively engaged, you know, on all things, phone, apps, all of that. Talk us through how does Deep Spirituality fit into this? Russ Ewell — I feel like you’ve already figured out what we’re doing.
Rich Birch — Nice.
Russ Ewell — So, I think that the statistics, the numbers say that in society in general, that people are gravitating more toward wanting to be spiritual and less toward the institution of church. I don’t think churches should feel bad about that. Every institution is being doubted in question right now. We’re just living at a time, or some people would like to say a season, of institutional doubt in question. So we know that. Russ Ewell — Gen Z is more among the nones, N-O-N-E-S, you know, when they give them options of the different churches they might go to, they say none of the above.
Rich Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — And so what we realize is that there’s got to be some place we meet people where they are, and spirituality is where they are. And I personally love the topic and love the idea and have really tried to learn a lot about it myself. Russ Ewell — So we create content there for people that may not be church goers, may not believe in God. They may come from a science background. That’s why I started a newsletter called The Chemistry Lab, to try to help people understand that science and God are not in opposition to one another. We have a Best Life series that we started specifically for people that are younger; the older people need it too. It’s basically life skills that are laid out throughout the year. We put, I think it’s 20 different ones together. Russ Ewell — And so you can learn how to build your finances, you can learn how to get self-awareness, and you go on there. And what we’re able to do is we’re able to have people partner up and be buddies and study and work on these things. And especially with the pandemic, it took people out of life development, not just educational development, life development. Especially here in California, where we were off the streets and out of social for a long, long time.
Russ Ewell — And so we try to provide those tools so people can get the life skills they need socially, emotionally, mentally, in regard to work and education, to be able to have success in life. Because at the end of the day, if Christianity doesn’t practically change your life for the better in day-to-day experiences, not a lot of people are going to look to it for being able to help their life in even the crisis moments. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I was actually, The Best Life, that series caught my eye when I was looking through your resources. You know, I’ve said in other contexts, following Jesus is best for you and makes you best in life or makes you best at life. And I love what you’ve done here, practically packaged up discipleship with really, I would say a fairly fresh new perspective that it feels like, yeah, like a fairly, I think pretty progressive approach that is helpful and packaged for a generation that’s looking for this kind of thing.
Rich Birch — Oftentimes, you know, it’s talking about goal setting, planning, time management, effective communication, all from a biblical perspective, all from, hey, how can the Bible help you? The stress management, financial literacy. Talk to me why taking this kind of practical approach, is this something that you’ve seen as you’ve worked with Gen Z and beyond- this kind of a doorway to these kinds of issues? Russ Ewell — Oh, yeah. I mean, well, one, you’re seeing amongst Gen Z, higher, they say, the statistics say higher rates of anxiety and higher rates of depression. You’re seeing more ADHD diagnosis. There’s lots of opinions about that. One opinion I’m developing just antidotally is that they tend to be more comfortable talking about those subjects. So the question is, are they really having more cases, which I think that’s probably true, but I think that they’re also much more willing to talk about it, especially young men are more willing to talk about emotional issues. Russ Ewell — So in working with them, like all the time, which is what my wife and I do, and working with Gen Z, and especially again, because of the pandemic, they’re trying to figure out, how do I move out of my parents’ house and get roommates?
Rich Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — How do I pay an enormous amount of money it costs to live in the Bay Area? How do I go to school and work a job at the same time? They’re very practical things they’re trying to figure out how to do. How do I date? How do I build a relationship with a young man or a young woman? Those are real questions that people have that oftentimes we just assume they’re going to figure out. And the church ought to be a place where they can come and they can learn those things.
Russ Ewell — And so, yeah, it’s been day-to-day hands-on work, and being in groups, having our scholars, our interns, these 34 kids, that’s helped us learn what they need. And they tell us, these are things we have questions about. How do I even have a budget? What’s a budget? My budget is called my parents. That’s my budget.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Russ Ewell — You know what I’m saying? Those are some of the ways we’ve learned. Rich Birch — To be honest, I was a little shocked as I went through Deep Spirituality. I’m like, where am I paying for this? This is incredible resources. It’s well done, well packaged, great design. It’s just available out there. How are you guys using this? How are other people using this resource? How is this fitting in? I’m trying to picture how this is actually being used. It’s very well done; compliments to you and the team. Russ Ewell — Well, yeah, and we do have a great team. And I think, again, it goes to our church.
Rich Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — The people in our church, they believe in doing good and in helping other people.
Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Russ Ewell — And they believe in doing that regardless of what they get back. And so they support it. And I think locally in our church, for instance, I’ll give you a story. One of the guys in our church met with one of the professionals in our church, one of the (he happens to be single) and he was having financial trouble. He actually took, these are older guys, not old, but older than teenagers or college students, they sat down and had a time where they went through the financial literacy one. And the guy was blown away. This person in our church never looked at Deep Spirituality.
Rich Birch — Right, right, right. Russ Ewell — He wasn’t looking at it at all, didn’t see the point. But once he saw it, he goes, where’d you get all this? He goes, it comes from Deep Spirituality. And so we give it to our leaders. We make sure they know what’s on there. So they can use it to help people in our church be able to conquer some of the challenges they might be facing. Russ Ewell — But we also have churches outside who will email us. We had actually a set of churches in Canada that reached out to us…
Rich Birch — Oh wow.
Russ Ewell — …and said, is it okay for us to take your stuff and use all your stuff? And we’re like, yeah, that’s what it’s for. And we’re not in some doctrinal debate or doctrinal. The point we have is the more we can spread and make God known, the better life gets for all of us. And if it empowers other people’s work, we’re really happy to have it happen. Rich Birch — Love it. Well, let’s loop back on something you said earlier that you just blew over, that I was like blown away when I saw this. It sounds like the kind of thing that people would say, well, that’s a good idea, but man, you guys are actually taking steps towards it. Rich Birch — You have a vision of having 50 plus percent of your church led operationally by Gen Z and Millennials. That’s wild in the very best of ways. I love it. That’s so good. How are you making that a reality? I know you’re taking steps towards that. What are you noticing about Gen Z as they lead differently? And what really can the rest of us learn? Rich Birch — I think that’s a noble goal for all of us to think about. How can we pass this thing on to the next generation? In fact, I was a part of, or was aware of, really more than a part of it, a group of leaders who had a similar pledge around, hey, we were going to hand our ministries off by a certain date. And only one of them did it. Most people continue to hold onto it and not give it away. So when I saw you’re actually doing this, I was super encouraged. So talk me through what that actually looks like. Russ Ewell — Well, one of the things I’ve tried to learn from Silicon Valley, from corporate world, is—in how they build and how they innovate—is the idea that, for instance, when I got here, all the technology companies from Apple—Facebook didn’t exist when I got here. And neither did Google.—But Apple and names of companies many people here wouldn’t necessarily know, they all called their corporate locations campuses. Russ Ewell — And so I went and visited and got to know people. And then that’s why I came down to Silicon Valley. And we started with a pretty small group and it grew because I went, I want to immerse myself in this and I want to learn from it. Because I’d come from DC, which is the opposite in many ways, culturally. Russ Ewell — And so one of the things I realized is they weren’t afraid of young people. In fact, they saw younger people as a way to be able to innovate, new ideas, new thoughts.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. Russ Ewell — And so that’s part of what we do. So what we do is we start by trying to just teach them how to do basic things, get with people and help people. And that’s a lot of work. Like even in our own church, some of the challenges are people that are older who lead, they don’t like the hassle of having to work with somebody who’s still trying to figure out how to keep his gas tank full…
RIch Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — …and get from point A to point Z on time. They don’t like that. But that’s what you have to do. So what we do is we look and say, okay, we got a 15 year old kid who’s got a lot of ability, just like a college football team or a college basketball team would be. They have a lot of potential. And so we look at it as: in six years, they’re going to be 21. And in eight years, they’re going to be 23. And they’ll be capable of leading a lot of people. So we start young and we try to give them opportunities when they’re young. Russ Ewell — So every year is about development, the spiritual relationship with God. That’s foundational. Relationships with people, that’s foundational. They have to learn resilience and to take input. And a lot of times it’s hard because a lot of the kids I work with, they have a lot of negative thoughts about themselves already. So if you tell them something they need to get better at, they can become defeated inside. And so you have to work, that’s something I’ve had to learn how to deal with. Russ Ewell — Now, here’s the positive thing. They’re collaborative. They tend not to be power hungry. They tend to like working together with each other. And sometimes one of these we have to work more on is them taking more leadership and directing and not just kind of waiting and that kind of thing. Russ Ewell — So it’s really, it’s a comprehensive effort to try to figure out how to develop them in their character, their faith, then how to teach them leadership. And so that’s a lot of what we work on and then giving them opportunity. So we’re about to hire another set of about three new couples that all have potential to be in that space where they can be a leader of the campus. Russ Ewell — And in some ways we’ll throw them in the water and go, okay, let’s see how it goes. Our church is great. Last thought on this is our church is great because we have older people who are more than willing to be the deep center fielder, to catch the balls that go over their head. And so it’s really a collaborative effort on the part of the young, the staff, and those who are older in our church to make sure they’re successful. Rich Birch — If I was to come like this weekend, I show up at one of your campuses, what would I notice? What would I see that might be like a bit distinctive that this is kind of working its way out? You mentioned the music piece, obviously you’re singing songs that have been written by folks that are in this demo. Are there other things I would notice that would be like, oh, this is a little different than maybe if I went to insert other multisite church in another part of the country? What would I notice, you think? Russ Ewell — I think the first thing you’d notice is that we’re deeply committed to the Bible. I think it would be a huge part of our culture.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good. Russ Ewell — The second thing, I mean, these are in no particular order.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Russ Ewell — You’d also notice the God-focus. People are very God-focused. The other thing you notice is when you come in, now every church has weaknesses and we do. So I wanna be clear on that.
Rich Birch — Yep, yeah, for sure.
Russ Ewell — But when you come in, people are gonna, they’re gonna meet you where you are. And we have people who’ve been going to our church for three or four years who don’t feel comfortable with being a member of a church and they’re a part of our church. We have people who are deeply committed and they become Christians and they’re deeply committed. It all forms a community and a culture that’s inclusive. Russ Ewell — So probably the biggest sort of relational thing you’d notice is the number of people with special needs and families with special needs who are included. There’s a children’s ministry aspect just for kids with special needs to make sure they’re included. But I think if a person walked in and this happens all the time, they’d go, oh, I’m accepted here. I can be who I am here, just the way I am. And whether or not I decide to believe in God or not, I’m gonna have friends and I can be participant in it.
Russ Ewell — And the final thing you’d notice is we have a number of events like Easter egg hunts that are inclusive. You can come to our event. You don’t have to come to our service.
Rich Birch — Right.
Russ Ewell — You can come to one of our soccer things and you don’t have to become a Christian, believe in God. You can be Hindu, you can be Buddhist. You would definitely notice that. Rich Birch — Very cool. Well, I know you’ve also written a book, He’s Not Who You Think He Is. Can you tell us a little bit about that? I’d love to kind of include that into the kind of conversation here, as we’re chatting through these things. Russ Ewell — Well, one of the things I had to do is, and you’ve asked a lot of great questions and they kind of point to the book in a way. I had to change the way I thought about God. I had to change the way I thought about church and that meant I had to change me. Russ Ewell — I had to change some of the ways I was trained to be in the ministry. And the book in some ways explains that journey and explains how much I was people-focused, how much I was structure-focused and how much I was built in a way that I wasn’t focusing on God and the way the spirit was leading. I was focusing on the church and the way we were trying to structure and implement our structure. Russ Ewell — And I’m not saying you don’t have structure, but I’m saying you have to be adaptable and you have to be innovative in order to meet people where they are, 1 Corinthians 9. And a lot of that started for me in my relation with God, understanding that being legalistic, a lot of people out there understand that term. Some people who are not familiar with church won’t. Russ Ewell — Being legalistic is not effective. You have to be spiritual and you can be powerful and that way you can be adaptive. And so the book really is great for people who are maybe an agnostic, an atheist. Maybe they don’t go to church, but they’re interested in God. It’s a great book for them. But for people who are Christians that have been going to church a long time, I think it’ll help you consult and look and reflect on, do I need to change the way I think about God and change the way I think about church in order to make a difference in the 21st century? Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, you know, I really do think your church, I think you specifically are the kind of ministry that people should be following and tracking with. I think you’re asking questions that, and finding answers to, that frankly, lots of us are wrestling with. They’re not even sure what question to ask. And so I wanna encourage people to track with you. Where do we wanna send them online to connect with you, to connect with the church, Deep Spirituality – where do we wanna send people? Russ Ewell — So the BACC.cc, Bay Area Christian Church, that’s a great place to go to find out everything we’re doing and keep up with what we’re doing. Deepspirituality.com is different, and it’s where all the resources are. And I hope you’ll take a look at the new newsletter called The Chemistry Lab, because it’s built exactly on what you’re talking about. And then any of the stuff I’m doing with special needs kids, e-life, special needs adults, you can find at russewell.com. So those are three places you can go, and you can find out probably everything you would wanna know about what we’re doing. Rich Birch — Love it, so good. Well, any final words that you’d have for leaders who are listening in? Particularly, we’ve obviously talked a lot about engaging next gen, engaging Gen Z in our ministry. Anything kind of encouragement or direction you’d give us today, just as we kind of land the episode? Russ Ewell — Well, two things I’d say to end. One, I don’t wanna give the impression that we’ve mastered all this.
Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Russ Ewell — We’re in the learning mode, and we’re trying to grow and trying to understand it. The second thing is don’t get discouraged. Every single victory we’ve had started small, took time, and eventually was successful. And so be patient, and don’t get down on yourself and get discouraged and feel like, why am I not being successful? Russ Ewell — Pick one thing, work at it, and over time, God will come through. He’ll bless it.
Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Russ. I really appreciate that. Say hi to Gail for us.
Russ Ewell — Will do. Rich Birch — Great to see you guys. We were joking early on. I think this is the first husband-wife combo that have been on the podcast, but not at the same time. So, which says a lot. 800 plus episodes in to have a new combo. That’s pretty amazing. Rich Birch — So Russ, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. All the best in everything you’re doing. Appreciate you being here today. Russ Ewell — Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
From Living Room to 5,000: Leading a Fast-Growing Church with Jason Hanash
Jun 19, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jason Hanash, the founding and lead pastor of Discovery Church in California—one of the fastest growing churches in the country.
How do you restructure your staff leadership to keep pace with rapid church growth? Tune in as Jason shares how Discovery evolved from a living room gathering to a thriving church reaching nearly 5,000 people—and the leadership shifts that increased alignment, ownership, and execution.
Train your team as you grow. // As Discovery grew past the 2,000–2,500 attendance mark, Jason realized their existing pastoral team model was no longer scalable. The team was too broad, meetings were inefficient, and execution lagged. In response, Jason transitioned to a leaner executive team structure, developing four key leaders over two years and empowering them with oversight based on their unique gifting.
Hire from within. // Rather than recruiting externally, Jason believes in developing leaders from within. Each of Discovery’s four executive team members aligns with the church’s culture, vision, and values, making them ideal for executive leadership. This long-term investment in development allowed for high trust and deep synergy across the leadership team.
Don’t skip the training runway. // Discovery spent two years intentionally developing its executive team. The first year was spent modeling leadership and included seasonal staff meetings, goal setting, and retreats focused on strategic management. The second year involved gradual empowerment and coaching. This slow-build approach created leaders who understood the organizational DNA and could lead with confidence.
Navigating change with vision. // Organizational change inevitably causes friction—especially when some staff members lose direct access to senior leaders. At Discovery, staff are reminded to “marry the vision, not the position,” and flexibility is woven into the culture. Involve key influencers early, explaining the “why,” and selling the benefits of change.
Weekly and monthly rhythms. // Discovery uses a two-tiered meeting system for their executive team. A quick weekly huddle every Tuesday creates space for real-time coaching and decision-making. Then, once a month, the executive team meets for a deep dive focused on five pillars: advancing the vision, influencing the culture, managing the systems, multiplying the leadership, and stewarding generosity. Each season emphasizes one pillar, helping the team stay mission-focused and proactive.
Daily department huddles. // Each department also holds a five-to-eight-minute daily huddle. These quick stand-ups increase alignment, clarify priorities, and offer real-time coaching. The brief check-ins save time, prevent costly miscommunication and provide a space for the team to exchange ideas.
Yearly themes that drive culture. // Jason and his wife take time each summer to fast and pray over the coming year. In 2024, the theme was “Year of Freedom,” which led to a yearlong focus on emotional, mental, and spiritual healing. The theme shaped sermon series, events, small groups, and even the launch of a counseling center. In 2025, the theme is “Identity,” with a new devotional, curriculum, and book—Christ Formed in You—guiding a 12-month journey of spiritual formation.
In this episode, Jason Hanash shares how Discovery Church grew from a living room gathering to a thriving church of over 5,000 without losing clarity, culture, or team alignment. One key system that supported that growth? Daily 15-minute leadership huddles.
To help you implement the same high-impact rhythm, we’ve created the 15-Minute Daily Huddle Toolkit, available exclusively to unSeminary Extra Credit members.
What’s Inside the Toolkit:
Toolkit Overview – A one-pager that explains what daily huddles are, why they matter, and how to lead them with impact
Email Sequence – Pre-written copy-and-paste emails to launch the 6-week challenge, keep it moving, and close it strong
Printable Prompt Cards – A set of creative conversation starters to keep your huddles focused and engaging throughout the challenge
Weekly Leader Tracker – A reflection tool for team leads to identify patterns, highlight wins, and capture learning
Celebration Ideas – Fun and flexible ideas for wrapping up the challenge—whether you continue the huddles or pause to reflect
Not a member yet? Support the podcast by joining unSeminary Extra Credit. It’s just $7/month and as a thank you, you’ll get access to this toolkit plus a growing library of practical resources designed to help your church lead better, grow faster, and stay healthy.
Join today and start your team’s next 6 weeks stronger than ever.
Thank You for Tuning In!
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Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone
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Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited to have you with us today. Looking forward to today’s conversation. We’re we’re talking with Jason Hanash today, great leader. He is a lead pastor and founding pastor with his wife, Veronica, of Discovery Church. And it’s repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. So you know, I’ve got a lot of questions. We want to lean in and learn more.
Rich Birch — The church is located in beautiful Bakersville, California. Their ministry includes a counseling center that offers biblically-based therapy. And in partnership with Vanguard University. The church hosts a partner site on the church campus called Discovery College or Discover College, which offers students affordable degree programs. I am so glad to have you with us today, Jason. Welcome to the show.
Jason Hanash — Hey thanks so much, Rich. Excited to be here, man.
Rich Birch — No, I’m excited to talk to you. Kind of fill in the picture for folks that, ah you know, that aren’t aware of the church. Kind of tell us a little bit of the Discovery story.
Jason Hanash — We started in 2013. And just to tell the story, I probably take 30 minutes to all the God stories, to be honest, ah to be where we’re at today at reaching almost like 5,000 people after 11 years, almost going to be 12 years this year, is just miracle after miracle, to be honest, doors that were open that I couldn’t open, just grace and favor and provision that we look back and we just say, man, that was that was God.
Jason Hanash — So there’s so many God stories to get us where we are, but it truly has been year after year, knocking literal walls down after walls down, expanding and expanding because the Lord has been bringing lost sons and daughters to his church. It’s been beautiful.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.
Jason Hanash — Yeah.
Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, there’s a ton we could talk about there, but I know one of the things that often kind of happens in a fast-growing church ah is we start to see some cracks on kind of the leadership side and being able to find enough leaders, release them. This is a critically important issue. Can you talk us through what has your church’s journey been with that whole side of this this trying to manage what God’s doing at your church, trying to keep up with what he’s, you know, what he’s sending your way.
Jason Hanash — Yeah, you know, when you start a church, your church plant, you’re like, do you have a pulse and are you breathing? Let’s go. You can serve. Let’s do this. We used to say at the the beginning, If you can open up a bag of chips and, you know, open up your home, then you can lead a small group. And my goodness, the Lord’s grace on us.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Jason Hanash — So there’s…Yeah, there’s there’s some things that happened probably in that season that could have been prevented. But honestly, we were so fast moving, fast growing, and there is a messiness on the side of grace. But yes, as you grow, um yeah those cracks become wider and wider.
Jason Hanash — And so we have always been a leadership development church focused on leadership development and raising leaders. And we did that, have done that in a variety of ways, but we probably saw the most glaring gap was in our 2000s.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Jason Hanash — And and I say, that because leadership development and in teams and multiplication has has always been part of our DNA and part of our systems and processes. But at the 2,000, 2,500 mark, we hit a lid…
Rich Birch — Okay.
Jason Hanash — …that we were not ready to grow beyond. And and that was where we had this pastoral team model. And I’m leading, and you know my wife as well, we lead together, but we’re leading the pastoral team. It’s one meeting. It’s a large team. It’s all the pastors, all the ministry pastors. So It just became too broad…
Rich Birch — Right. Okay.
Jason Hanash — …too slow, lacked execution and detail at the level that ministries and ministers needed needed it.
Jason Hanash — So um this was probably, don’t know how many years ago now we’re at at that stage, maybe just after COVID. It was probably leading into COVID and after COVID, they just COVID kind of lengthened everything. But it was that stage that we were at this 2,000, 2,500 mark that we needed to restructure.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — And we moved to this executive team model where I was able to focus on some mission-critical things and raise up some leaders to another level.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — So we kind of identified four leaders on our team, and we took them on a journey of about of two years…
Rich Birch — Wow.
Jason Hanash — …pouring into them and and helping them understand what executive leadership looked like and modeling it for.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Jason Hanash — So even like the first year, what do you doing we didn’t even call it an executive team. We called it an admin team. This is our administrative team.
Rich Birch — OK, great.
Jason Hanash — We didn’t give them the name.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — It was like, no, they were right you you haven’t earned that label, that title yet.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Jason Hanash — So administrative team. And and we, one year we poured into them and and modeled ah for them. And then the second year they started, they started carrying more. And so now we are in a very healthy executive team model now where…
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — …and we’ve been able to grow, not only grow to the 3,000, but now reaching almost 5,000 people. So it’s it’s been a tremendous shift for us.
Rich Birch — That’s great. That’s great.
Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s double click on that. When you, because there’s a bunch there I want to unpack. But before we think about kind of where things are at now, how those four roles are structured, that sort of thing. What were some of the kind of things that led you to the place where you’re like, um I’m just not sure, you know, that this is really working.
Rich Birch — I’m thinking for leaders that are listening in, they might give a few hearty amens to like pains that you were feeling at that time, that they might see that, hey, may um maybe we need to make a change.
Jason Hanash — You know, when when you start noticing the the lack, the gap, the deficiency or the decline…
Rich Birch — Okay.
Jason Hanash — …in ministry or in baptisms or in team members or in leadership, when you start noticing those pain points after the pain happens, you’re just it happens you’re like, what what happened? You go, oh, we we don’t have that team meeting. We don’t have that, we’re not running that system the way it’s supposed to be. Why aren’t we? And there was so much that we just, we just, we missed.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — And so we we were now looking in hindsight going, how did we miss that?
Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah.
Jason Hanash — And whenever that starts to happen, it’s because there’s probably too much bureaucracy or there’s not enough intentional leadership being given to your, to your pastors or your departments. And so where we were planning and looking ahead and we’re able to support our ministries, we got too big to where we were, we were looking behind and see it react…
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Jason Hanash — …rather than rather than acting.
Rich Birch — Then proactive. Okay. So then you ended up restructuring around kind of a four-part leadership team. Talk to us about how those roles kind of work out. What are the kind of various buckets that the people have? And then and then we’ll talk about the transition to that.
Jason Hanash — Yeah, so I’m big on on you know the answer’s in the house, and raising up your leaders that you have…
Rich Birch — That’s good. So good.
Jason Hanash — …your your pastors, your leaders, your team. And we have have not hired out at Discovery.
Jason Hanash — And I’m not against it fully. I mean, if there’s a need for that, I’m open to it. I just have always tried to develop the people that God has given me and raise them up. And so that’s why it it took probably two years for our executive team to start humming. But I have people on our executive team that have been here for 11 years and…
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — …and I’ve been able to raise them, them up. So, they have culture, they have the vision, they have the heart of our, of our ministry.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Jason Hanash — And there is, there is relationship that there. We have chemistry. There’s a lot of alignment and synergy with that. So, and I say that because, you know, what buckets that they have, are really a reflection of their their gifting and their leader capacity…
Rich Birch — Right, right. That’s good.
Jason Hanash — …their their passions. And so in working with who you have and raising them up, I think you have to leverage people’s gifts. So our leadership structure is leveraged towards the the giftings of of the elders…
Rich Birch — Of the people. Yep.
Jason Hanash — …that God has called to lead this church. And so um we you know we have a zone who oversees our experience and creatives They lead all communications experience, creative ministries. We have someone leads all of the worship and and services and moments across all ministries. We have another executive that leads all of our next gen and as well as guest experience. And then we have some leads all of our what we call freedom ministries and our counseling center, pastoral care. And so those are the the four primary executives. And then myself and my my wife, we we you know have some mission critical things ourselves, but we oversee the the executive team.
Rich Birch — So that’s great. I love your word there around, um you know, really taking this from who are the people God’s put in in your church and trying to build their roles around them rather than like where we’ve got some artificial, you know, org chart that we’re trying to fit people into. That’s not how you said it, but I but I really appreciate that.
Rich Birch — That’s, now you did this, talk to me about this training, this kind of before you launched, what did that look like? I love the intentionality of that. Like, Hey, we’re going to march towards it. We’re bridging towards this, not just saying like, okay, go for it kind of thing.
Jason Hanash — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Tell me about, tell me about that.
Jason Hanash — Well, there’s a lot of things that we do in leading a high impact ah action-oriented, change-oriented staff and and ministry. So from um the goals that we set, how we set goals, our lead measures, lag measures, the org charts, how we plan our staff meetings. We have seasonal you know seasonal meetings with with department heads and what are the goals you’re focusing on.
Jason Hanash — So there’s there was a lot that hit just show we had to walk them through and we took them on a few retreats and showed them how to manage a staff and a team, and different departments goals and teams and how to keep keep them looking forward. So it it was just come along let us we’ll do it with you and we’ll actually break away a couple times to to to have you ask questions and and build it out build it out together. So um it was it was a year of modeling what what that looks like.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — And then this second year was us kind of um but releasing a little bit to them while we coach them is is what it looked like.
Rich Birch — That’s cool. Now, what about the people? So I’m assuming that these folks and this this may be a foreign question to you because everybody always gets along at Discovery Church. There’s never any tension. Everything’s perfect. But I’m assuming from what I hear you saying that, like, you know, you’re you’re raising up a few people by definition.
Rich Birch — And you know, that might have, there might be some stepped on toes in that feeling. How you know, again, how did you avoid that? Or what did that theoretically look like to try to avoid that? If that’s not really an issue, how how did you navigate that? Do you understand the kind of question I’m wondering about there?
Jason Hanash — I think change in any regard is going to cause friction…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — …and especially when you’ve got organization structure change, organizational change.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — So there there is that. I think what we have going for at Discovery though is we have um grown every year and had to restructure quite often.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Jason Hanash — And so kind of in our culture, to be change oriented.
Rich Birch — Right. Good.
Jason Hanash — And of our staff in our, in our, so that, that is going for us where that is something that is embraced structure changes, meeting rhythms change. We tell people to marry the, the, the vision, not the position. And so you’re going to might have to shift on, um, you know, what hats you’re you’re wearing depending on what season we’re in and and what what the needs are.
Jason Hanash — So there’s there’s that in the culture, but inevitably there is going to be, hey, well, I was sitting at this table and now I’m not at at that table.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — And so with that, I think you have to be, use some change strategy and have conversations with key, not only key influencers, but but people that it’s going to impact the most.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Jason Hanash — And share vision with them, you know, get embodied on the vision and and the why. And that is something that hopefully that they’re going to be able to grow through.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — That they’re not meeting maybe with me anymore or with Pastor Veronica…
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — …but they’re actually meeting with another executive. And, you know, there’s still value that I add in coaching them. And these are the rhythms of of what that looks like and how I can speak into your life and really selling them the benefit. It’s a benefit to them and a blessing to them…
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — …because I’m not able to give them, honestly what they need to do.
Rich Birch — Right. The care they need.
Jason Hanash — I cannot. And they need so much more than what I’m able to. And with this structure, here’s what they’re able to do. And I’m able to lean into where I’m strong at. And I can mentor you.
Rich Birch — Yep, yep.
Jason Hanash — I can care for you. I can stretch your leadership. And and they can actually help you see the details and stay on track and grow faster and larger. And so they just need to understand the why.
Jason Hanash — And we try to try to do that, but inevitably there is going to be, you know, feelings and and to navigate people’s very real feelings so its is important.
Rich Birch — Yes. Feelings are part of working with people. There’s ah there’s definitely is feeling there.
Rich Birch — Talk to me about your ah the you’re meeting rhythm. This is like typical unSeminary question, like love to get in the weeds there. How often do you meet one-on-one? How often do you meet as a group with that executive team? And did that change from before? I’m assuming you reduced your your total, your direct you know headcount that you’re managing. So to talk us through maybe before and after what’s that look like?
Jason Hanash — Yeah, so it’s it’s looked different throughout the transition.
Rich Birch — Right. Yep.
Jason Hanash — And and honestly, our meeting rhythms shift quite often, probably more often than and went then we should, and to be honest with you. And I feel like it is, but honestly, it is because people come and go and hats get shifted and leadership assignments get shifted. So that necessitates maybe some movement.
Jason Hanash — So but currently where where our rhythm is at is we have a weekly huddle with our executive team. And this is on our first day.
Rich Birch — Okay
Jason Hanash — We have a Monday Sabbath because Sunday is a week packed into one day for us.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Jason Hanash — We have five services, range from 8 a.m. to 6.30 p.m. And so it’s Monday Sabbath.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Jason Hanash — And then so but Tuesday, when we come to the office, the first thing that that we do is the executive team meets together. And this is where we just, it’s just a huddle, really. This isn’t a detailed meeting. It’s not we we just want to have FaceTime with with them. What are the the the projects and priorities? What are any problems? And if there’s any people conversations that we need to discuss. And it’s it’s pretty quick. And we we let our our executives give them a room every week to just share. And that’s where we can have some real time conversations. So coaching real-time answers to to barriers or challenges that they’re having and where we can get alignment across our executive team.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Jason Hanash — So it’s time for us to so huddle. They have a weekly a daily huddle that they have with their with their departments, and it’s like a five to eight minute things. It’s standing up and they get to, they just do that a quick huddle. And so we kind of model that as well, where it goes a little bit longer though. We probably have about 25 to 30 minutes that, that we, we try to stand too and not sit down.
Jason Hanash — And then we do a monthly executive meeting. In the monthly executive meeting we try to stay bigger picture and, and looking ahead. And to do that, we actually, we have a a rhythm that every month is a different a little bit of a different focus. Every month we’re talking about vision and we are going to have our vision metrics that are that, how are we moving people toward the process of discipleship here at Discovery and their the, their vision goals in their specific departments. But we have a different focus every month that we move through. And these are and this is probably going to be more in the weeds that you’re probably looking for, but it’s…
Rich Birch — No, no, it’s good.
Jason Hanash — Okay. We we have really, there’s five, the five focuses of of an executive at Discovery is: advancing the vision, influencing the culture, managing the systems, multiplying the leadership, and stewarding generosity. And so these these are five focuses that the executive team is is, it’s like a heartbeat that they, they, so every month we shift from what the focus is. So vision is actually going to be the one that’s in every every meeting.
Rich Birch — Right. That’s cool.
Jason Hanash — But we shift from influencing the culture, managing the systems, multiplying the leadership and stewarding resources. So what it works out, because it’s four of them, it works out, we do a seasonal calendar. We actually focus on one of those habits, if you will, or one of those um pillars every season.
Jason Hanash — And so we get to do a deep dive in our systems every season.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — We get to do a deep dive in our in our leadership pipelines and our leadership ah team and the goals that we have for leaders every season. Culture…
Rich Birch — That’s great.
Jason Hanash — …how are we influencing the culture of our church? What what is the culture of our church? We have culture conversation and how we are, we get to talk about how are we shaping the culture of our church this season and how are we going to shape it next season?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.
Jason Hanash — What are the stories that need to be told? What are the things that need to be highlighted? There’s a we get to just do a deep dive into that. And then as well as every season, we talk about stewarding generosity. And so we get to do a deep dive into how we have stewarded their budgets.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Where are we at and all that.
Jason Hanash — And where are they at? And how are we looking? And so it’s it’s both reflective of what has been done and where are we moving moving forward. So we’re able to do just a deeper dive with this team…
Rich Birch — I love that.
Jason Hanash — …that is that influences the the the background, the heart, the foundation of of the church. It isn’t we’re not talking about events. We’re not talking about you know who’s speaking there and and what what is the that conference looking like. That’s not what we’re talking about in that meeting. We are shaping the heart of the church and moving it forward toward the vision.
Rich Birch — Love it. I love that. And I love the just—listeners, as you’re listening in—I love that you’re using the rhythm. Like we have a very, what we do is very routinized in the church. Every seven days, we’re doing a giant event. And you guys in particular, five services that we were joking about this before we went ahead of time. Oooh, that’s a lot. I get tired just thinking about it. But you know we have this rhythm already in what we do. Let’s leverage that. And I love this idea of like, hey, we’re just going to march through these five things and talk about them. We’re going to every, you know, I guess that’s like a third of the year, we’re marching through every one of those areas. I think that’s so good.
Rich Birch — You caught my eye with daily meetings, daily huddles with your team. I know we’re not talking about your executive, but they’re having daily huddles.
Jason Hanash — Yeah.
Rich Birch — I have a friend of mine who runs a business who swears by daily huddles. He’s like, why are you not doing these? And pushes me on it. So, and I do, I, in fact, I don’t know any churches that do daily huddles. I think you’re the first church that I’ve heard of that does that. So tell tell me about that. Tell me what that looks like. Unpack that. Convince us that we should be doing that.
Jason Hanash — Well, it gives an opportunity for the executive to look in the eyes of their of their staff and and for that department to get alignment and to talk about their their projects and and priorities, what their focus is for the week.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Hanash — And when they when they come together, they are saying again, what the focus is for the week, what are they accomplishing, what challenges or questions that that they have.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Jason Hanash — Real-time decision-making feedback is is it so important, man. I think people, there’s so much that doesn’t get done and get stalled because they just didn’t have the line of communication that was that was open, the clarity that was needed, a question that went unanswered. So I think it creates that open line of communication. It creates an opportunity for there to be collaboration across the different team members of your department. But it is a good rhythm of accountability where everyone can work on what they’re working on instead of being in the weeds and like just grinding, they actually have to pick their head up and go, what is my focus this week? What should I be accomplishing? And be able to articulate that in a succinct way.
Jason Hanash — And so this is an opportunity for them to become great administrators and time management and task management and project management And as well as an executive or a leader who’s leading them to discern where people are at in that, if they need coaching in that, if they need redirection, if they need focus. Sometimes in a huddle, they’re saying, I’m I’m working on this, this, this. And an executive has to go, and actually, let’s talk about that because I actually I have I have some redirection for you there.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Jason Hanash — I need you to focus on a few more things this week, and and we’re going to table some of those. Oh oh, yeah, you didn’t. There was something we actually canceled that or we changed that. We need to connect. And so it creates so much alignment and and focus and momentum when you get people in the room…
Rich Birch — Love it.
Jason Hanash — …talk about what they’re going to be working on. And it gives opportunity, like I said, for coaching. So it’s been huge for us. We’ve been able to, I think, save so much time…
Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.
Jason Hanash — …and energy and mistakes in wrong direction…
Rich Birch — Yes.
Jason Hanash — …by dedicating 10-15 minutes…
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — …in the morning first thing to just talk about what you’re actually going to be working on together.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I can see that. I remember reading, I think I’m going to butcher the number. I think it was 40% or 45% of staff time is occupied with waiting on management or feedback around, you know, it’s literally just like I’ve communicated. I just need to wait for someone to respond.
Rich Birch — And, you know, the the the kind of theories of constraint idea behind that is if you can just get people talking more, you can speed up at the pace of your organization because it’s like, and if you know, in this case, every day you’re going to have a quick check-in, man, we can move from, because then the question becomes, hey, what did you do on that project yesterday? Or I can just wait till tomorrow morning to ask my supervisor about that. And we’ll, you know we’ll move as opposed to like, well, I’ve got a meeting up three weeks from now or whatever. So yeah, I love that.
Jason Hanash — Right. And there there’s ways, I mean, you can use systems as well.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — We have we use Basecamp.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Jason Hanash — A lot of people use different different software. We we use Basecamp for, sometimes they they don’t do the huddle because people are in different towns, in different cities.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Jason Hanash — They’ll do Basecamp. Basecamp is an ongoing system of communications as well. Must must happen.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it. Love it. So good. Okay. So let’s pivot in a slightly different direction. You did an initiative called Year of Freedom.
Jason Hanash — Yeah.
Rich Birch — It caught my attention. Tell me what is Year of Freedom? Give us, give me a sense of that.
Jason Hanash — So every, it was 2024, last year…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — …we we just ah really felt like the Lord leading us in a direction. And every summer, I take a month off, not just a vacation, but I take about two weeks. I pray, fast—my wife wife and I both—and we’re seeking God for his voice and direction. And not just for like ministry and the church, but for my life and for God to align me…
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Jason Hanash — …as a father, as a husband. It’s our marriage. It’s
Rich Birch — So good.
Jason Hanash — …it’s in that time in the summer we’re we’re praying and we’re fasting and we’re seeking God that the Lord will show us some things about our our children. He’ll give us insight as to importance in this next year that we’re leading into and what they need to learn and grow and how we need to lead them.
Jason Hanash — And so it’s in that time though, that that we also seek God’s direction for what everything we’re stewarding, including including the ministry and the church. And the Lord has been pretty faithful these last I don’t know, four or five years to to just give us clarity of focus. And and this year was just um was ah one that focus was around freedom. And that was the word that Lord just spoke to our heart. And and it it came in birth out of the the need. There’s such a great need of healing of mental and emotional and spiritual strongholds that that that people have. And and um…
Rich Birch — So good.
Jason Hanash — …we felt that the Lord wanted to wanted to set people fee free. And and we were going to take people on a journey the whole year of freedom…
Rich Birch — Wow.
Jason Hanash — …and crafted that journey and through our series and our men’s and women’s nights and experiences, even our youth and young adults and the retreats that we went on – the thread of the year was was freedom.
Rich Birch — So you organized, I love this idea. Like I, you know, I’ve heard of churches doing the like, like, you know, whether it’s a word or it’s a focus. Peal that back a little bit. How did that drive your planning process? How did it drive, you know, series selection?
Jason Hanash — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Give us some examples of what that looked like.
Jason Hanash — So it starts for us in the summer. And then when we take our staff on our annual retreat in October, we share the vision with them and they begin to craft the experience and their events and moving into the year with this thread of freedom.
Jason Hanash — But for me, with our sermon series, that the the planning is is around that how does this how is this reflective of this this year of freedom that we’re moving into? I began the year with a series called Freedom. We released a curriculum called Freedom as well.
Rich Birch — Wow. Yep. Yep.
Jason Hanash — A book we wrote that was like small group curriculum called Freedom. The, and then throughout the year, it’s not that every single sermon was about, you know, freedom…
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — …but we, we had like, you know, The Relationship Rehab is one of the series. So we’re relational freedom. We did a series called Anxious for Nothing and it was about anxiety and depression. And we did a spiritual warfare series called Battles and Breakthrough. And this was on a spiritual freedom. We did Truth Over Trend and the deceptions of culture. And so the the thread throughout the year was, was freedom. We were going to see people set free.
Rich Birch — That’s cool.
Jason Hanash — And then when we did like a men’s night or a women’s night, we were leading intentionally men and women, specifically in the things that they deal with. So we’re addressing some of those things to lead them out and into freedom.
Jason Hanash — We did Freedom nights in in January and August. We have those 21 Days of Prayer. And so we we have worship nights during those times. And so those were nights of of freedom…
Rich Birch — Wow.
Jason Hanash — …that we were intentional about the focus every time we’d gather, a different area of focus where we’re where we were going to break strongholds, and we were going to believe that people were going to be set free and and start walking out a new freedom journey.
Rich Birch — I love this from a clarity point of view. I love this. Like, Hey, we’re, where this is like an organizing principle for the, for the year. Have you done this multiple years or is this like a one year thing? Has it been, you know, is it gaining momentum internally? Like we’re thinking, cause I hear you say like, Hey, we’re thinking about in the summer. So that would mean, Hey, you’re thinking about next year. You know, how, how’s that all work?
Jason Hanash — Yeah, it really, this last year in 2024 probably was the greatest year of alignment with it that we’ve had.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Jason Hanash — We’ve had focus and and clarity on on maybe a theme and and it would thread through maybe sermons, and um but not the kind of alignment that we had this year. And this probably is, again, a result of empowering people our our leaders to lead at higher levels…
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it.
Jason Hanash — …seeing that kind of traction thread through…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — …all of the church. I it was it was a result of that. I got to share the vision…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — …to a team that’s carrying it and they get to mobilize.
Rich Birch — Right.
Jason Hanash — And it just thread through everything. We have small groups and like as a curriculum. We launched our counseling center. We launched a freedom prayer ministry. We we started LGBTQ support small group and saw people set free that were going to take hormone blockers and confusion and and homosexuality and and saw people saved and set free from from all of that. It was all like it was it was all because we we shared vision and invited the team into it.
Rich Birch — Yeah, love it.
Jason Hanash — Yeah.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. I love how those two connect together. Obviously this, you know, taking what’s an idea, you know, given to you, but then, hey, accelerated through your team, expanded and even, you know, greater alignment and then obviously impact from all of that. That is, yeah, that’s that’s so good.
Rich Birch — Well, when you think about the future, this has been great today. First of all, this has been so good. Lots of, I got a page of notes here, stuff to think about and chew on. But when you think about the future, ah you know, at Discovery, kind of where, what are the questions you’re asking or wrestling with in in the future?
Jason Hanash — I think where we’re at right now is is this is 2025…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — …and the year or theme for us was identity. And I really felt like it was an identity crisis and has been an identity crisis. And not just culturally that we see maybe with with with gender, um but I think in the kingdom, people do not know are in Christ. They don’t know their identity in Christ.
Jason Hanash — And so so I I believe there’s a hunger for for that in the body. There’s a hunger for that in the world because what the world has told people where they would find belonging, fulfillment and meaning has has just leaving them broken, lost and confused. And so there’s a I believe there’s ah there’s a message in a revival coming to the church where we are bringing people into understanding into their, their identity, who they, who they were created to be and their identity in Christ.
Jason Hanash — So this year we kind of, we we wrote like a devotional for it.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Jason Hanash — And in I’m actually, you know, finishing up a new curriculum, a book I’m writing called Christ Formed in You is launching in July 30th, I believe.
Rich Birch — Nice. Love it.
Jason Hanash — And we’re [inaudible] spiritual formation and a culture of [inaudible] faith.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jason Hanash — And we’re going to take people on a year long journey…
Rich Birch — So good.
Jason Hanash — …where our foundational new believers curriculum needs to be 12 weeks. We’re stretching it out to a year and the 12 habits of the disciple.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Jason Hanash — We’re just taking people on a deeper journey of spiritual formation so that they’re just not practicing habits, but the habits are shaping Christ’s likeness in them.
Rich Birch — Ah, that’s so good. I love that. Yeah, I was thinking that, you know, the interesting thing about launching, you know, you talk about launching a year like that.
Jason Hanash — Yeah.
Rich Birch — If you launch at the beginning of January, that means you’re writing at the in, you know, the year before. So you’re trying to balance out this year, next year, trying to keep it all straight. That’s, that’s cool. I love, I love that. It’s interesting to hear.
Rich Birch — Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. What what else would you like to say just as we come to land today’s conversation?
Jason Hanash — Man, it’s it’s been a pleasure, been a pleasure, man, to hang out with you and to share. I think that that there’s, I what I would say is I’m seeing across the the nation, as I talk to pastors, it truly is the sparks of revival.
Rich Birch — I would agree. 100%.
Jason Hanash — There is such a hunger for the the word of God and the presence of God. And, and what is, what used to be, I don’t know, we’ve moved away from, guess, the teachings, the word of God and, and we tried to attract people and wow people and lights and, and, and music and, and that’s, there’s nothing against that. I, we, I use that. But, but I think what, what’s really attracting the next generation is truth. And this generation is starved of of truth and there’s so much deception and the truth is is is in the Word of God. And as we teach the Word of God and we teach the truth, they’re coming. And I see young adults coming with their Bibles and they want to read the Bible, they want to know the Bible.
Jason Hanash — And so I think a church growth recipe is, is you know, teach the Word of God. Get back into the Word of God.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true. Absolutely.
Jason Hanash — Open it up and dive into and you’ll see a ah spark, I think, in your congregations.
Rich Birch — No, that’s so good. What a great encouragement, great place to, uh, to end. Where do we want to send people online? If people want access, is there a way to access some of these resources that you’ve used for the entire year? Is there a place we can send people to kind of see that or where do we want to send them online to track with you track with the church, that sort of thing?
Jason Hanash — I mean, you can go to our website, ilovediscovery.church to see a lot of our, all of our content. We’re actually putting on our first ever leadership conference on July 12th.
Rich Birch — Oh, great. Good.
Jason Hanash — It’s just a one day Saturday. We’ve we’ve been getting a lot of just, you know, questions from pastors and ministry leaders on on how we’re doing what we’re doing.
Rich Birch — Good for you.
Jason Hanash — So we’re kind of opening up the house and giving our playbooks and resources and workshops and bringing in some speakers and hopefully going to be a really great value add.
Jason Hanash — But we’re, we’re we have a ah website, I believe it’s leadershipconference.church.
Rich Birch — Ooh, that’s good.
Jason Hanash — And if you want more information about that, leadershipconference.church, you can check that out. I believe that’s it. I’m probably murdering it. Let me see. Rich, I’m good my team’s going to kill me here if I don’t get this right. Yep, leadership.
Rich Birch — No, that’s right. That is. Yep. That’s right. That’s, that’s the, that’s the address. That’s good.
Jason Hanash — That’s it. So if you want more information um and more resources and how we do what we do and how we grew from a living room to 5,000 people, that’s that’s what we’re going be sharing there.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. That’s great. You got some great speakers there, Natalie, Ryan, Chris, and yourself. That’s going to be a great. Yeah. We’ll, we’ll link to that in the show notes. Incredible value. Uh, you know, you should check that out if you’re in the area for sure.
Rich Birch — Thanks so much, Jason. I really, uh, really appreciate you being here today. Thanks for being on the show.
Jason Hanash — Thanks, Rich.
Leading Change Without Losing Your Team with Craig Smith
Jun 12, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast! Today we’re talking with Craig Smith, Lead Pastor of Mission Hills Church in Colorado—an 80+ year-old multisite church and one of the fastest-growing in the country.
Is your church growing faster than your systems can handle? Do you ever feel like your team is working hard but not aligned? From shifting teaching paradigms to reworking systems, tune in as Craig unpacks what it takes to align a historic church for long-term mission impact.
Change is inevitable—prepare for it. // Churches must constantly adapt as their environments, congregations, and staff change. Revisit systems and culture regularly to ensure they support growth rather than hinder it. Leaders should resist nostalgia and instead anticipate future needs by assessing current practices with an open hand.
Purpose before mission. // A major source of confusion in churches is a lack of clarity between purpose and mission. Purpose is why a church exists, while mission is what the church does in response to that purpose. Many churches get caught up in activity without anchoring it in clear purpose, which can dilute culture and cause drift.
Preach for transformation, not just information. // While Mission Hills was known for its Bible teaching, they lacked clarity on the why. Reestablishing the purpose of Bible teaching—to help people follow Jesus—helped guide everything from sermons to discipleship. Use the Bible to lead people toward life change rather than just sharing information. While biblical knowledge is important, it should always lead to transformation and a deeper relationship with Jesus.
Build systems to support growth. // Craig inherited a high-capacity church with very few systems in place. Over time, he implemented clear decision-making processes, established team structures, and clarified how different leadership roles (elders, executive team, department leads) fit together.
Dismantle silos through honest conversations. // A months-long culture audit revealed both strengths and barriers across departments. By facilitating open conversations about what people valued and what they hoped to see, Craig helped unify teams around a shared vision.
Repeat it—consistently. // Language creates culture. Leaders must say important things not just often, but consistently. If you change the phrasing every time, the message gets lost. Mission Hills is intentional about memorable language that reinforces vision and values over time.
Speak in clear, accessible language. // In a post-Christian context, leaders can’t assume shared language or knowledge of the Bible. Speak plainly and avoid churchy jargon. Teach with language that invites non-believers while still challenging mature believers. Reaching people today means speaking with clarity and compassion.
Mission Hills Association. // Mission Hills Church has launched the Mission Hills Association—a support network to help churches strengthen their health and reach. It includes coaching, collaboration, and shared resources aimed at building a regional gospel movement.
Visit Mission Hills Church at www.missionhills.org to learn more about the church and their Beyond initiative.
EXTRA CREDIT // Download The Clarity Conversation 1-on-1 Worksheet
This episode with Craig Smith is all about navigating change without losing your team – and we’ve created a practical tool to help you do just that.
It’s a simple, printable guide with five powerful questions to help you align your staff, surface tensions, and build trust during seasons of change. Members can download it here.
Not a member yet? Support the podcast and unlock this resource (and many more!) by joining unSeminary Extra Credit.
Thank You for Tuning In!
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Do you feel like your church’s facility could be preventing growth, and are you frustrated or maybe even overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your church building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that your church could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?
Well, the team over at Risepointe has been there. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead your church to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Licensed all over North America, their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to help move YOUR mission forward.
Check them out at Risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there get their FREE resource “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build”.
Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We’ve got Craig Smith with us. He is the lead pastor of a church called Mission Hills Church, which was established more than 80 years ago, if I’m counting correctly. A multisite church, it’s been one of the fastest growing churches in the country for multiple years. They’ve got three locations and a Spanish campus in Colorado, and they’re currently engaged in this initiative to accelerate towards their 100-year legacy. Rich Birch — Super excited to talk to Craig today. Thank you so much for being here today. Craig Smith — I’m really honored to be here, Rich. You have been you’ve been really helpful to me as a leader, and so I’m really honored ah to be part of this. Thank you. Rich Birch — Well, that’s kind of you to say. Why don’t you fill in the picture about Mission Hills? Kind of tell us a little bit, give us some context there. Craig Smith — Yeah, a lot of this is actually in my head right now, because as you said, we’re thinking towards that 100-year milestone. So I can tell you that this church was founded July 26, 1942. Craig Smith — So right in the middle of ah World War II.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Craig Smith — Everybody was being shipped off to, some of them were being shipped off to boot camps, their people were being shipped off to internment camps.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Craig Smith — I mean, there’s just a lot of uncertainty in the country, and there was a group of people that said, the best thing we can do for this next generation is to plant a church. Rich Birch — Wow. Craig Smith — And so they they did that. And here we are – we’re 83 years later, and it’s ah it’s been pretty incredible to see what God has done with this church over these last 83 years. And we know he’s not done. We’re looking forward to the next 17. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Exciting. The you know, one of the things that’s yeah unique about your church is, um you you know, you’re it’s a fast growing church, but you also have this legacy. It’s been around for a long time. And and those are two things that don’t normally fit together. Rich Birch — A church that’s 75 years old that has obviously seen some accelerated growth. So when you think about, there was must have been some shifting of the culture here when you started. I wonder if we can kind of elaborate that, talk about any kind of cultural underpinnings that needed to transform to kind of help the church in its current state. Craig Smith — Yeah, so the the church had a season of really substantial growth before I got here. God kind of orchestrated a move from their existing location to a new location, and there’s a whole story in there about what God did. Craig Smith — But then the new location really it was a more strategic location. I think it was it was the right place. It was the right time. There was the right leadership in place at that time. And so there was some pretty rapid growth that came from that. With with that growth came also some challenges. I think it broke a lot of the systems. And not too long after the the church had moved into the new location and really began to see some substantial growth, the the the executive pastor and the lead pastor sensed God’s call elsewhere. Craig Smith — And and I think that was true. That was God calling them elsewhere. But it was also, they were a little overwhelmed with what had happened with the growth. And soI and it was about a two-year period before I got here.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Craig Smith — So I came in and sort of looked around and went, wow, yeah, this is a great church, great bones.
Rich Birch — That’s great.
Craig Smith — I tell people a lot of times, I feel like I got handed the keys to a Ferrari. It was maybe a Ferrari sitting on a sheet of ice spinning its wheels a little bit. And I think that was mostly systems and processes. They just hadn’t quite caught up to being the size of church that they had become. So we we settled into trying to figure out like what needs to happen, systems process, what needs happen culture-wise to to begin to to move towards the next season. And by God’s grace, I think we’ve been able to figure a fair amount of that out. We’re still working on it. Craig Smith — But yeah. Yeah, there were definitely some culture things that had to shift. It’s a Baptist church. We don’t we don’t say that anymore. We’re Converge. Rich Birch — Yes. Craig Smith — Converge worldwide, you know which used to be the Swedish Baptist Conference. Rich Birch — Yes. Craig Smith — And somebody figured out Swedish wasn’t helping us reach people. And then eventually they became the the Baptist General Conference and they figured out Baptist wasn’t helping us reach people. Rich Birch — Funny. Craig Smith — So now we’re Converge worldwide. Rich Birch — Converge worldwide. Craig Smith — Yeah. But there, yeah…
Rich Birch — Love it.
Craig Smith — …there definitely was some culture shifts that that needed to happen. Rich Birch — Yeah, what would be some of those when you look back at this? That’s a good framework of culture and then systems. Why don’t we start with the culture stuff? What were some of those things that you’ve seen evolve over the time you’ve been there on the culture side? Craig Smith — Yeah, I think from a cultural perspective, the biggest challenge is probably one that I think a lot of churches in the Western world have, and that is not a lot of clarity went around the difference between purpose and mission. And I know people use these words differently, so I’m just, this is the way we use them. Craig Smith — But ah for me, purpose is why we exist, and then mission is what we do. And so mission flows out of purpose, but I think we get that wrong in the Western church a fair amount. Craig Smith — And I think what happens is that what happens we we end up focusing on what we do without an underpinning, understanding of why we do it. And so i so here at Mission Hills, we would say our purpose as a church, not just Mission Hills, but the Church in general, is we exist because God loves the world and wants them to know it. Craig Smith — That’s why we exist, right? Because God loves the world and wants them to know it. And then our mission, which is what we do, flows out of that. And so, I mean, the mission is it’s discipleship and evangelism. I mean, we’re not going to come up with something new for the church, right? Rich Birch — Right. If you do, there’s something, you’re not a church, right? It’s got to be at its core. Craig Smith — There’s something wrong that has happened. But I think what happens is we get focused on the mission. So we you know we end up like, well, we’re doing discipleship or evangelism. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — And sometimes I think the split in churches today is, are you a discipleship church or an evangelism church? And I’m like, even that question bothers me. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Craig Smith — Because I even i you know I often hear it in the discipleship context, and people go, well, the purpose of the church is discipleship. And I’m like, no, it’s not. That’s like saying the purpose of the Marines is physical fitness. It’s not. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Right. Craig Smith — Now, is physical fitness fundamental to doing what the Marines exist to do? Absolutely. Is discipleship fundamental? I feel like all I do every day is discipleship. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — That’s that’s my gifting.
Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — But my discipleship is built on this understanding that the church exists for a reason, and that is to reach the world with the gospel. And so you can’t do that without discipleship. But when you get that purpose and mission confused…
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Craig Smith — …that creates a culture that can get in the way. And so I think that was probably the biggest challenge was beginning to shift the church to: no, no – understand your purpose first. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — And then all this other stuff is building on or building towards that, that purpose. Rich Birch — How did that exhibit itself in the culture? Like, or where did you identify as like, Hey, here’s some stuff we’ve got to shift because we were not clear on, you know, purpose and and mission. Craig Smith — Yeah, so Mission Hills has a really long history and a legacy as a strong Bible teaching church. And and I hear this at Mission Hills still. I’ve been here eight years working on nine. I still, you know, we’re a Bible teaching church, and I think that’s true. Craig Smith — But I would say even in my own personal growth as a as a leader, early on, if you had asked me what my job was as a preacher, I probably would have said my job is to teach the Bible. And then God kind of began to to work some stuff in me, and I I began to grow increasingly uncomfortable with that. And I wasn’t quite sure why, because I love teaching the Bible. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Craig Smith — But I but I just felt like something was missing. And I was talking to a trusted mentor, I was sort of explaining what was going on in my heart. It was it was inarticulate. It was just kind of babbling. And he goes he’s kind of stopping. He goes, oh yeah, I know what you’re saying. You’re understanding that your job isn’t to teach the Bible. And I was like, Yes, it is. Craig Smith — And he goes, no, it’s not. Your job isn’t to teach the Bible. Your job is to teach people how to follow Jesus using the Bible as your only authority. And it was just a light bulb moment when I, like that’s what I’m feeling. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Craig Smith — That’s what I’ve been feeling my way towards. Rich Birch — Yes. Craig Smith — That’s what I think the Spirit’s been convicting me towards. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — And and, and, and so like, does it fundamentally change what I do? Not necessarily, but it does change how I think about it.
Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — And so when I got to Mission Hills, I think I was, and I was still in that process, but I was like, Oh yeah, what I’m seeing here is like the focus on the mission, which is teaching the Bible, but that’s disconnected from the purpose, which is why am I teaching the Bible? Which is to help people follow Jesus, which means not only spiritual growth in their own personal lives, but also joining Jesus on mission in the world.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Craig Smith — That’s why there’s a church.
Rich Birch — Yes. Craig Smith — And so i definitely saw that there was a church that’s very focused on Bible teaching. Very proud of the fact that there have been multiple pastors here with PhDs in biblical studies. And I had to begin to go, okay, we’re not getting rid of that…
Rich Birch — Right.
Craig Smith — …but we do need to make sure we understand why we’re teaching the Bible. Rich Birch — That’s good. Craig Smith — You know, and sometimes it manifests even in like, how do we teach the Bible, right?
Rich Birch — Right.
Craig Smith — Like the the previous pastor before me, who I love dearly, he’s become a very good friend. He was very fixated. That that’s a negative word. He he was his his preferred mode of preaching was a version of expository teaching. And I say a version because his version was, we’re pretty much going to go all the way through a book of the Bible. And that’s the only way we’re going to do it. Rich Birch — Right. Right. Craig Smith — Nothing wrong with that. It’s not really my way. I’m an expository teacher. like almost I’ve probably preached four topical messages in my life.
Rich Birch — Sure.
Craig Smith — But what I mean by expository is I’m going to unpack. I’m going to expose the meaning of a passage of Scripture. But I may or may not do that as part of a whole book study. Sometimes it it is. Sometimes I’m going to section of a book. Sometimes I’m going to do what people would call topical because I’m going ah walk through a passage about this issue. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — And then i’m on ah next week i’m going to walk through a passage about this other issue. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — Which some people go, that’s topical. I would say, yeah, but for me, topical is I’m bouncing around picking verses. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — Nothing wrong with that either. Rich Birch — Here’s 10 verses that ah on this. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Craig Smith — But yes, I think Mission Hills was a little bit locked in on a very specific version of teaching the Bible. Rich Birch — Sure. Craig Smith — And and maybe not a really clear understanding of why are we teaching the Bible in the first place. That’s kind of how it manifested. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I like that. That’s a good distinction there. I think there’s that’s a clear drive. I think sometimes this can, it can just drift towards, it’s almost like a trivia approach to the Bible. It’s like, I want to give you knowledge, information about the Bible. And then I feel like I’ve done my job. If you walk out with some more, you know, facts that you can impress people with.
Rich Birch — But at the end of the day, we want to, we preach for life change. We’re preaching to see people take steps closer to Jesus. I love that. What about on the system side? You said there was some system stuff that needed to change as you looked at this kind of like, okay, we’re, we need to make a bit of a renovation here at the church. What were some of those systems that that need to improve? Craig Smith — Yeah, i’m honestly, we just needed some systems. Like that that was a big piece of it. Rich Birch — Okay. Yes. Craig Smith — I think the Mission Hills was not a small church before they built their their broadcast location that that I’m I’m leading in right now. But in some ways, if I’m going to be perfectly honest, and again, I I don’t want to dishonor anything that’s come before me…
Rich Birch — No, no, no.
Craig Smith — …because I I love the leadership. And the and the former pastor is such a good friend. The former pastor, his name Mike, and Mike would say and has said to me, I wasn’t a an organizational leader. He’s a shepherd. He’s got an amazing shepherd’s heart. In fact, he’s he’s told me, like one of his favorite things to do is funerals. He loves those tender moments with the families, which I, man, I respect. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — I love that so much. Rich Birch — Yes. Craig Smith — That’s not me. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — But when the church grew and he found himself going, wow, now there’s this there’s all these people here. What what do I do with this? Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — He just, he felt like he wasn’t really equipped to think that way.
Rich Birch — Right.
Craig Smith — And he had an exec pastor, but but honestly, the growth kind of overwhelmed the executive executive pastor. And so when I got here, I felt like I’m not entirely sure how you guys functioned as a church the size you were before you grew. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — And we’re we’re woefully ill-equipped to lead in this particular context that we are now, let alone to continue to grow. So yeah, I don’t see it with a lot of us just establishing systems. How do we make decisions? Who gets to decide what decisions get made? Who has responsibility for certain kinds of decisions? What’s the role of the elder team versus the executive team versus the the department leaders and all those kinds of things. So a lot of it was just thinking through that philosophically. Rich Birch — Wow. Craig Smith — Yeah, the church, the the departments were very siloed. So there wasn’t a lot of cross communication going on. There wasn’t a lot of fun. I don’t think we, I don’t think we felt like when we got here that there was a sense, oh, we’re doing something incredible together because God’s leading us. It was more like… Rich Birch — Right. It’s like we got our individual pieces. we do our thing and it’s good. But you know, wow. Craig Smith — Yeah, it was, it was head down and let’s get the job done. And… Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — You know, I started seeing things like I remember early on, I discovered that we had a quarter where there were three separate parenting seminars from three separate departments, none of whom knew the other department was doing those. Rich Birch — You’re doing what? That’s funny. Craig Smith — Yeah, yeah. And that was it was just it was a result of the growth and the lack of systems and and and…
Rich Birch — Communication.
Craig Smith — …really thoughtful ways of dealing with those kinds of things. Rich Birch — Wow. That, by God’s grace, when you think about like the delegation and decision-making and how does the elder team relate to staff team, all that stuff, man, it’s by God’s grace that it didn’t blow up. Cause that, the fact that that wasn’t super clear, that could have been, you know, tragic in the life of the church. Rich Birch — When you, let’s double click on the silo thing. How did you go about breaking down? Cause that’s and a natural thing that happens in churches. As we grow, they kind of become, you know, everybody gets their own little fiefdom and it can be difficult to get them to talk together. What have you done to try to stitch those together? Craig Smith — So if I’m going to be completely honest, God was really gracious, and we stumbled into some things early on that ended up being helpful. I should probably tell you, I didn’t have any experience in big church. Craig Smith — There’s there’s a weird story about how I ended up here. I didn’t apply for the job. I wasn’t interested in the job. I made the mistake of guest preaching, and I was a brand new lead pastor. Rich Birch — And you’re still guest preaching. You’re still guest preaching all these years later. Craig Smith — I’m I’m still guest preaching all these years later. So I all that’s to say that I came into this role without any real experience. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — And I was pretty new as a lead pastor, honestly. I’d only been about a year in that role at a at another much smaller church. Craig Smith — So I I was trying to figure things out. So I was I was collecting mentors in my life, and I was you know I was in a crazy learning mode. And and again, unSeminary was very, very helpful to me in that season. So again, thank you for that. Rich Birch — That’s kind of you. Craig Smith — One of the things I started to to realize I needed to do is we needed to figure out who are we as a church? What’s our culture? What’s our cultural values? And so I spent a lot of time ah talking to members of the staff as well as the congregation to go, hey, what’s true of this church that you want to make sure we don’t lose? And then, you know, what do you think could be true, but we’re not quite there yet? And that was about a six month process.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Craig Smith — But what happened in the process of doing that was we had a lot of conversation across departments. Because I was kind of moving down into each department and not staying up at the higher level. And I think that actually began to start some of the the movement away from silos. Because I was then going to other people going, well, okay, these people said this. What do you think about this? Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — Oh, yeah, we like that, but I’m not sure that one’s quite true. And then I’d go back to the first team and go, hey, so they said this about what you said, and what do you but do you think about what they’re responding to? But also, they said this, what do you think about that? I think that was the beginning of breaking some of those silos.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Craig Smith — And then just putting some stuff into place where there’s regular conversation and and meaningful ways to talk about decision-making, about programming. And and so maybe maybe we stumbled into it a little bit.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Craig Smith — But it was it was communication, like big surprise there. It was just creating formal processes of thinking through communication. Rich Birch — Right.
Craig Smith — So the informal benefits of communication began to happen. Rich Birch — That’s good. Well, even just in today’s conversation, you know, you’re clearly a gifted communicator. Everything from the spinning tires of the Ferrari on the ice, you know, this purpose, mission, conversation. Language is obviously a powerful tool for to drive culture and to communicate. Rich Birch — I wonder if you could unpack a few examples of maybe where language or messaging strategies have been particularly helpful for you to kind of embed values, what we’re doing, how we do it deeply into what the church does. Can you talk us through what that looks like from your seat? That’s a unique seat that lead pastors have.
Craig Smith — Yeah. Rich Birch — There’s a language piece that you have that is different than even a senior like executive pastor person. A lot of this language stuff is driven by lead pastors. Craig Smith — Yeah, so, I mean, you you’ve heard it said that words create worlds. And I think that’s absolutely true. You know, they they say in marketing, what’s the what’s the rule of thumb? You got somebody’s got to hear something seven times before they act on it. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Craig Smith — And I have I say to our staff all the time, and it took me a while to figure this out, because as ah as a lead pastor and as a communicator, like the worst thing I can do, the greatest sin I can commit as a communicator is to bore somebody. Which means that I’m always going, I I want to say this a new way and a new way. But the problem is every time you say it a new way, it hits different people differently. And and so and they receive it slightly differently.
Craig Smith — So I began to realize, and I tell my staff this all the time, just because you’ve said it doesn’t mean they’ve heard it. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — Just because they’ve heard it doesn’t mean they’ve understood it. Because they’ve understood it doesn’t mean they’ve agreed with it. Just because they’ve agreed with it doesn’t mean they’ve done anything with it. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — Just because they’ve done something with it once doesn’t mean they’re continuing to do something with it. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good Craig Smith — And just because they were doing something with it doesn’t mean they have haven’t forgotten it and need to be reminded of it.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Craig Smith — Which is just really just a way of saying, yeah, they they need to hear it a lot.
Rich Birch — Right.
Craig Smith — I think language begins to beat the drum. And if you beat the the backbeat steadily enough, people begin to bob their heads and like, OK, we’re moving in rhythm together. The problem is if you say it differently every time, you can’t quite count that as a second saying. Craig Smith — You’d like to think that you can. I used to like to think that I could. I can say this creatively and in a new way and accomplish exactly the same messaging. And I began to realize that’s just not, I’m not able to do that. Rich Birch — That’s a great insight. Craig Smith — So I started going, I need to figure out how to say this in a way that feels like me, and also is memorable, so that people can remember it even when I’m not there. Rich Birch — Yep. Craig Smith — And I need to say it a lot. So I gave you one example earlier, when we started talking about purpose, we started saying, hey, yeah, the church is here because God loves the world and wants them to know it. And sometimes we’ll say, i mean, what does the Bible say? He loves them so much, he gave them his son. And he wants them to know it so much, he gave them his church. And a lot of times now, I’ve said it enough that I can i can leave off the last word of those, and people will go: son, church. Rich Birch — Right. And people repeat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh good. Craig Smith — I actually kind of want people to roll their eyes a little bit on some things that are so important that I’ve said them so much, they’re like, yeah, yeah, I got it. Rich Birch — That’s a good… Craig Smith — Maybe you do, but not everybody else does.
Rich Birch — Yeah,
Craig Smith — So yeah, we started figuring out how how do we say these kinds of things. You know, when we talk about discipleship, I’ll say things like, listen, it’s not big leaps, it’s small steps. Because enough small steps in the same direction will take you places you never thought possible.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. Craig Smith — So thats that’s a phrase I say a lot: enough small steps in the same direction will take you places you never thought possible. So I don’t need you to make a massive life change today. I need you take a small step. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Craig Smith — And then another one. And then another one. So those are the kinds of things like I have a, we call them plumb line statements. And when we’re onboarding new staff, like my my development director goes over a lot of those plumb line statements because there’s a lot of them. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — They’re just, here’s how we say this. And and we we tend to say it pretty consistently. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Craig Smith — Sometimes you got to vary it because some people just, they can’t handle saying the same thing over and over again. But but I think the more you can say it the same way, the better you’re going to get this sense of oh, we’re all bobbing our heads together and, you know, we’re dancing to the same tune. Rich Birch — Yeah, I think that’s such a good insight. I, you know, I’ve joked in other contexts that, and you obviously said it way better than I say it, that, you know, people have to start making fun of you for these things. They have to, you know, they have to be like, okay, come on. Craig Smith — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like, but it’s true. I was with a i was with a staff member of one of my favorite communicators last week, and I was listening to them. They were presenting, and I was listening to them talk, and it was like I could hear that their leader coming through in their voice. Because it was, you know, they were repeating, like you’re saying, repeating these plumb lines.
Rich Birch — And, and it wasn’t, it wasn’t in like a copy and paste routinized way. It was just like, oh, that, that language is just has seeped into this person and has become a part of who they are. Which is what, what a powerful example. And I think that as a non-communicator, I don’t, I’m not a preacher. I think sometimes we can forget that that kind of repeating thing is such a critical piece of the puzzle and we’ll want to always come up with some new way to say it. But I just love that. I think that’s such a great a great insight for sure.
Rich Birch — One of the things you’ve talked about is the part of the country you find yourself in, Colorado’s front range. That’s a unique part of the country, but as an outsider, it appears like you’re passionate about reaching that part of the country. What’s unique about that? What is it about the front range that has you fired up that, what you know, what is it that’s, you know, kind of given your church, you as a leader kind of a unique mission with that aspect of what God’s called you to? Craig Smith — Yeah, the Front Range of Colorado, which is kind of a, we we use that, it’s a civic designation. It runs from a city called Pueblo, Colorado in the south to Cheyenne, Wyoming in the north. It’s just east of the Rocky Mountains, which are obviously a big feature here and probably a big part of the culture. And I think a lot of places in the country will say this. It’s absolutely true here as well. This is a graveyard of church plants. Very difficult to get church plants that survive here. Craig Smith — And and I think there’s a number of things to do that to that. Part of it is it in some ways we probably feel a little bit like the Pacific Northwest. There’s there’s a little bit of a Seattle vibe to to Denver, Colorado. Rich Birch — Right. Yep. Craig Smith — There’s a lot of California. We’ve had a lot of transplants from California coming out to to Colorado. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — There’s a little bit of that. At the same time, there is a difference. You know, where’re we’re on the plains right next to the big mountains. We don’t have an ocean. We’re not the Bible belt by a long stretch. We’re probably more similar to the the northern parts of the country and the Pacific Northwest. There’s a very strong ah financial component to the Front Range. It’s not cheap to live here. Rich Birch — Sure. Craig Smith — So so money is often part of the culture. The mountains, as I said, are a big part of the culture. Let’s go to the mountains…
Rich Birch — Right.
Craig Smith — …and let’s let’s ski or let’s camp or let’s hike or let’s whatever. And so the weather has massive implications even on weekend church attendance. I… Rich Birch — Okay. Craig Smith — …you know I coach some guys around the country that will sometimes lament to me like, yeah, I mean depending on you know with the weather, we might see a 10% shift in our weekly attendance. Rich Birch — 10%?
Craig Smith — And I’m like, dude, 30% is not at all unusual.
Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — A really good weekend, I can drop 30%. Rich Birch — Yes. Right. Craig Smith — A bad weekend, it’s got to be just the right kind of bad.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Craig Smith — It’s like, oh, it’s not good to be in the mountains, but it’s not unpleasant to go outside, like 30% up, like wild shifts. Rich Birch — Yes. Craig Smith — There’s there’s a fair fair amount of culture of apathy here about spiritual things…
Rich Birch — Okay.
Craig Smith — …because of the money and because of the mountains and and the recreational culture. So yeah, it’s it’s not an easy place. We we think less than 10% of the front range is engaged in ah a life-changing, life-transforming relationship with Jesus. Yeah. Rich Birch — Yeah, I’ve that’s amazing. On the weather thing, I’ve joked in other contexts that like perfect church but weather is like 70 degrees and overcast. Like it needs to be like, you know, not not crazy hot, not crazy cool.
Rich Birch — But now, so obviously, and you didn’t use these words, but, it you know, the front range is heading towards post-Christian or post-Christian, you know, which is a challenging environment to communicate the gospel in. How have you as a communicator and as a person trying to build a church, how has that context impacted how you talk about Jesus, talk about… Yeah because I think the the rest of the country, we have to learn from environments like yours that are that are really in in some ways, I don’t know what you say, ahead of the rest of the country. There you know It’s a context that most of us are heading towards. Help us understand what how does that impact your your communication or what you do as a church? Craig Smith — Yeah, nothing real new here, Rich. I’m not I’m not breaking any new ground on this, but I think what it means for us is you can’t assume a common language about spiritual things.
Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — So we’re super careful about what we would consider churchy language. You know, we’ll talk about growing to be more like Jesus. I mean, our our mission statement is helping people become more like Jesus and join him on mission, right? Evangelism, discipleship, right? But we don’t we don’t say sanctification. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — We don’t talk about justification. You know we’re just going talk about like growing in your faith because that’s, it doesn’t assume a knowledge.
Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — We can’t ever assume that they know the Bible stories.
Rich Birch — Yep. Craig Smith — So, you know, I will never say, and I will coach our younger staff when they’re communicating, don’t say, hey, you know the story of Moses. Because a lot of them don’t. Rich Birch — Right. No, they don’t. Yep. Craig Smith — A lot of them, I was actually, this is this is wild. I was in um I was in a I was in a screening of a ah a Christian film recently, a Christian TV series. And and the the room was filled with church staff. Okay. That’s key. They they were professional Christians, right? Craig Smith — And and there was there was a scene where Jesus was making a whip. He was obviously getting ready to go into the temple and do that whole kind of a thing. When the thing was over, somebody asked the, there was a person who in charge of the screening. They said, hey, you know, what are your thoughts? What are your questions? And people said, oh, I really like this. I really like this. And one person says, “I’m I’m super curious – what’s he going to do with the whip?” Craig Smith — And again, it’s church professionals, right? Rich Birch — Wow. Craig Smith — And so the the person who was overseeing it clearly thought it was a joke cause he kind of laughed. And then he had that moment where you could tell he was like, oh, you don’t you real you’re serious. Rich Birch — Yeah. You don’t actually know. Craig Smith — And he so he said, “Well, what do you think he’s going to do with the whip?”
Rich Birch — Oh, wow.
Craig Smith — And this this person and this person said, “I have no idea. That’s why I’m I’m so curious.” Rich Birch — Oh, my goodness. Wow. Craig Smith — And I just thought that’s a pretty good illustration of where the where the culture has gone, at least in Colorado. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Craig Smith — You’ve got church professionals who don’t know the stories, right? Rich Birch — Right. Right. Wow. Craig Smith — So you never never assume that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Craig Smith — So we yeah, we just we’re just very careful about our language. It doesn’t change the kind of things we’ll preach on, but we’re just always assuming we’ve got nonbelievers, in part because our people are living on mission inviting people to come to church with them.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Craig Smith — And we don’t want the cringe moments…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Craig Smith — …where that person who brought their friend is suddenly going, oh my gosh, they feel so lost because the way we’re talking about this or whatever.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Craig Smith — So a lot of it, again, kind of comes down to language. Rich Birch — Yep. That’s good. Good stuff. Well, it’s one thing to be a part of a church to see the kind of culture change and then, you know, be the the culture change agent, and and be a part of all that. But then, you know, the the culture around us keeps changing. Our organization demands something new as we grow. Rich Birch — As you look to the future, the next, I don’t know, 5, 10 years, what do you anticipate as maybe some changes or questions that you’re wondering about, thinking about in the future to kind of support what you believe God’s calling the church to do? As you kind of look to the horizon, what would be some some questions you might be wondering, Hmm I wonder how we’ll have to shift to to anticipate those. Craig Smith — Yeah, so god God’s given us a pretty big vision. We call it the Front Range Vision, and that is that that Mission Hills would become a catalytic influence for reaching everyone in the Front Range. Rich Birch — Love it. Craig Smith — And that that’s very general. Specifically, what we think that means is that we we’re looking at our 100-year anniversary going, when we get there, I think what we want to do is to be able to look around and go, there is no one on the Front Range that lives more than 10 minutes from multiple healthy churches. Rich Birch — Wow. Craig Smith — And there’s a lot of gospel deserts. Rich Birch — That’s a giant vision. Craig Smith — It’s a giant vision. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Craig Smith — And and and the key word there is catalytic influence. We’re not obviously not going to do that ourselves. Rich Birch — Yes. Right. Right. Craig Smith — But we think God’s calling us to to be part of what the church is doing and maybe to maybe to light some fires, maybe to grease some skids, maybe to to provide some encouragement and support. And so we have two strategies around that, and multisite expansion is one of those. We’ll continue to do campuses. Rich Birch — Love it. Craig Smith — We’re we’re Like you said, we we’re at we’re at four campuses. One’s a Spanish campus. The other two are are video, and then there’s a broadcast. We’re still figuring out what it means to be a multisite church. But we think there’s going to be additional campuses. But a lot of it, we’ve we’ve got something that we’ve launched recently called the Missionals Association, which is an all give to churches in the front range…
Rich Birch — Love it.
Craig Smith — …just designed to help them become healthy where they recognize they’re not. You know, we’re not going to walk in and go, hey, you’re unhealthy. But when churches are going, hey, I want to be this and we’re not quite there, how do we get there? Yeah, we’re we’re providing all kinds of resources and and cohorts and and learning opportunities and encouragement and equipping and supporting and those kinds of things. Craig Smith — So that that’s that’s the vision. And yeah, we’re going to be a catalytic influence for reaching everyone by making sure that we’ve got these healthy churches. Because we more and more believe the only way to reach the front range is to unleash an unprecedented movement…
Rich Birch — Wow.
Craig Smith — …of missional followers of Jesus that are fueled by local congregations. Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. Craig Smith — So local congregations, whether they’re Mission Hills or other other congregations, we just want to see healthy congregations helping people live on mission with Jesus here. So that that what does that mean for us? I mean, It means raising the money to do that, which is a little tricky because it’s not the, it’s not direct benefit to our people. Rich Birch — Sure. Craig Smith — We’re in a campaign right now and I’m realizing that’s one of the challenges. We’re not going, hey, you’re going to get a nicer building to sit in. No. Rich Birch — Right. Here’s a new kids area. Here’s a whatever. Yeah. Craig Smith — Yeah, this is actually, this is a little bit like the centurion who helped build the synagogue. You know, we’re going to build places that you’re going to pay for them, but you’re never going to pray in them kind of a thing. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Craig Smith — I think the centurion who was, who was Gentile probably wasn’t allowed to go into the synagogue, but he helped build it. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — That’s a little bit of a mantra. Like, yeah, we’re going to, we’re going to pay for places we’re not going to pray in. That’s a little bit, that’s a culture shift. Rich Birch — Wow. Yep. Craig Smith — That’s, that’s about helping our people think of themselves living on mission. So that’s, that’s a change. And then there’s, there’s structural issues as we continue to grow. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — I more and more find out that growing churches have really messy org charts. Rich Birch — True. Yeah, absolutely. And constantly changing. Craig Smith — Constantly changing, which I kind of like change. Rich Birch — Right. Craig Smith — Not everybody that I lead likes change…
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Craig Smith — …or don’t like the way I lead change, which is often, that’s my fault, right? I’m I’m still learning how to do that effectively. But yeah, we’re we’re in the midst of figuring out some more structural stuff going forward. What got us here isn’t going to take us there. Again, lots of people have said that, but we’re seeing it for sure right now and trying to figure out, well, okay, well, what is going to take us there? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. That that vision of, you know, a life-giving church within 10 minutes of everybody in the the front range, that’s that’s incredible. That’s a huge vision, you know, to benchmark that for listeners, I know Walmart’s thing is to put, and it’s they’ve achieved it, is 90% of Americans live within a 20-minute drive of of a Walmart. So you think about, man, you’re, you’re trying to have twice the density of, of Walmart is amazing. Obviously for much, something that’s more than twice as important. I just think that’s and incredible. So fantastic.
Rich Birch — Craig, this has been a great conversation. There’s a lot we could dive into, but this has been super good. Anything else you’d say to listeners as, just as we wrap up today’s episode about this whole area around clarity and alignment and how do we keep churches headed in the right direction? Craig Smith — You know I think probably the the one thing that I would say is you’re probably not as clear as you think you are…
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true. Craig Smith — …and you have you’re not as constant as you think you are. You know, I’ve just learned this over and over again in my life. Rich Birch — That’s good. Craig Smith — What I thought was clear was not nearly as clear as I thought it was.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Craig Smith — And so I had to work really hard, like, how how can I do it again? What what process of distilling it down to its essence do I have to go through again? What what filter do I have to run it through to make sure I’m getting rid of the extraneous so that I’m really focused on the essential? Yeah, I just realized that you’re not as clear as you think you are, Craig, and you’re not as consistent or as constant as you think you are. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Craig Smith — You think you’ve said this so many times and you think everybody’s got it and they’re so bored with it. They’re not. They’re they’re not because you haven’t said it nearly as much as you think you have, know. Rich Birch — That’s so good. That’s so good. Well, this has been great, Craig. Appreciate your leadership, cheering for you, cheering for the church, what you’re, you know, what you’re up to. If people want to track with you or track with the church, learn about what’s going on, where do we want to send them online? Craig Smith — Yeah, missionhills.org. Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Craig. Appreciate you being here. Craig Smith — Great, Rich. Thank you.
Cultivating a Staff Culture that Drives Church Growth with Shayla McCormick
Jun 05, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Shayla McCormick, Executive Pastor at Coastal Community Church, a thriving multisite church in South Florida known for its authentic culture and rapid growth.
How do you build and protect a thriving staff culture as your church grows? Tune in as Shayla offers practical, actionable insight on shaping culture, defining staff values, and creating systems to keep your team aligned as your ministry expands.
Creating a culture that feels like home. // Shayla and her husband planted Coastal Community Church from scratch, starting with no connections in the area. Recognizing South Florida’s often disconnected and transient culture, they prioritized building a church that feels welcoming, relational, and like home. From day one, they wanted people to feel seen and valued. Their authenticity—sharing personal struggles, not just victories—has helped foster a genuine sense of belonging for both staff and attendees.
The critical role of values. // As Coastal grew, Shayla saw the need to ensure staff alignment around organizational values. Many churches struggle with dysfunction not due to poor strategy, but because values are aspirational rather than actualized. To combat this, Shayla developed a practical process to define the values Coastal wants to see consistently lived out in staff. Instead of starting with abstract concepts, she asked herself what characteristics were present in people she loved working with—and used those real-life examples to shape their core values.
From wall to hall. // Coastal has seven staff values: We Believe the Best, We Own It, We Think People, We Live From the Inside Out, We Make It Better, We Have Risk Taking Faith and We Set the Tone. Values only work if they’re acted upon, not just printed on posters. Coastal implemented a quarterly staff values evaluation tool where staff self-assess how well they’re living out each value using a plus, plus-minus, minus system. Supervisors do the same, and both compare notes to spark meaningful conversations. This regular rhythm has become more impactful than annual performance reviews and has helped create a culture of continuous growth.
Quarterly check-ins drive accountability. // These evaluations include three key questions—Do I get it? Do I want it? Do I have the capacity to do it?—which help surface deeper issues of calling and alignment. The result is clearer communication, fewer cultural blind spots, and, when necessary, healthy offboarding of staff who aren’t aligned. Shayla notes that conversations are now regularly centered around values, and team members frequently reference them when making decisions or reflecting on behavior.
Modeling values from the top down. // Values must be modeled by senior leaders. As Coastal grows and adds campuses, Shayla is continually asking how to transfer the heart and vision of top-tier leaders down through the layers of the organization. Her team is currently developing onboarding materials that communicate each value directly from senior leaders like herself and her husband, ensuring clarity and consistency from the start.
There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please shareit by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremelyhelpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!
Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church
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Episode Transcript
Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super pumped that you’ve decided to tune in today. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We’ve got Shayla McCormick. She is the executive pastor at a church that you should be tracking with, Coastal Community Church. They’re a multisite church with, if if I’m counting correctly, two campuses in Florida. And they’re repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Honored to have Shayla with us today. She is the executive pastor. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Shayla McCormick — Thank you so much, Rich. It’s so exciting to get to be here and to share about one of my favorite topics in leadership in the church and investing in other leaders. So thank you. Rich Birch — I’m honored that you’re here. Why don’t you kind of tell us a little bit about about your role? Tell us, ah because, you know, the executive pastor, that’s been my background. It looks a little different at every church. Shayla McCormick — Yes. Rich Birch — Tell us a little bit about your background, your kind of role and andCoastal in general. Kind of give us this, paint us the picture. Shayla McCormick — Yes. So what’s crazy is I I had never really worked in the church world or the nonprofit world until my husband and I moved to South Florida 15 years ago to plant our church. Rich Birch — Nice. Shayla McCormick — We moved here like knowing no one. So starting from the ground up. it’s Rich Birch — Wow. Shayla McCormick — And it was crazy journey. We did a lot of things wrong, but figured it out along the way. And just, you know, I think what we were great at was consistency. You just keep showing up and keep showing up and eventually… Rich Birch — So good. Yep. Shayla McCormick — …it kind of it kind of worked out. And so my husband and I actually lead very much together, but he’s he’s his strength is as a visionary. And my strength is strength is really as like the implementer of that of that vision.
Rich Birch — Love it. Shayla McCormick — And so we work really well as a team. And so I pretty much manage the day-to-day operations of the church and the staff and and just, you know, seeing the vision begin to actually have legs to it.
Rich Birch — Love it. Shayla McCormick — And I enjoy every moment of it. Rich Birch — So good. Well, we’re honored you’re here. Could tell us a little bit about Coastal. Give us like the flavor. If we were to come this weekend, kind of talk to us a little bit about the church, kind of help us picture your church. Shayla McCormick — Yes, I would say, you know, one of the things that we always said here in South Florida, my husband and I come from the Bradenton, Sarasota area Florida, which is just south of Tampa. Shayla McCormick — And over there, everybody knew everybody, right? It was like, good old boy. Everybody knows everybody. You you have a friend when you walk into church. South Florida is very different. Like people aren’t the friendliest.
Rich Birch — Yeah, okay.
Shayla McCormick — So they all you could easily walk into a store and people are just going to look the other way and not say hi to you. Rich Birch — That’s because they’re all from New Jersey. You know, they’re… Shayla McCormick — Exactly. Rich Birch — I lived in New Jersey for years and that’s where they all end up. They all end up down there. That’s fun. Shayla McCormick — Exactly. They come down 95 and they end up with us.
Rich Birch — They just keep going. Shayla McCormick — And so we were like culture shock. This is, this is crazy. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s interesting. Shayla McCormick — And so we were like, we are determined to have the friendliest church.
Rich Birch — Okay. That’s cool.
Shayla McCormick — That when you walk in that you feel seen, that you feel welcome. It just feels like home.
Rich Birch — So good.
Shayla McCormick — And we would say that all the time when we, when people walk through the doors, we just want them to feel like they step through the doors of, of, of home. Rich Birch — So good. Shayla McCormick — And consistently people that come, they’re like, they come in and they’re just like, something’s different about this. It just feels like home.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Shayla McCormick — And that’s sometimes the greatest compliment, you know, that we could have. So we’re a very authentic, um, church, like what my husband and I are walking through or what our team is walking through. You’re going to hear about the mistakes and the failures and the difficulty. And I think really people connect with us a lot of times in our weakness more than they do our strength.
Rich Birch — True.
Shayla McCormick — And so we try to, to really make everything relatable and that we don’t have it all together. And so i think I think people would probably describe our church as just a safe place that they can just be themself. Rich Birch — That’s great. Shayla McCormick — And you feel that when you walk through the doors, we have a big sign at all of our locations that says, everyone’s welcome, nobody’s perfect, and anything’s possible. Rich Birch — So good. So good. Shayla McCormick — And I think you really feel that in in the life of our church. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, I loved as you were, you know, there are multiple things you said there resonated with me, leading a staff team, being consistent, keeping the values aligned. You know, you’ve done things wrong. We want to learn from you, particularly on the staff leadership side. Lots of XP’s that’s a part of our puzzle. How, you know, when you think about ensuring that you’re kind of keeping staff moving in the same direction, kind of living out those values, what are some kind of obstacles that you’ve encountered or you maybe have heard other churches and encounter…
Shayla McCormick — Sure.
Rich Birch — …when it comes to trying to ah keep the team aligned around common values? Shayla McCormick — Yeah, i think I think in any organization, right, you have you have people that are coming in from from somewhere else. You know, they haven’t always experienced your church or your leadership. And there’s going to be some things that are very unique to to how you lead and the culture of your church. And if we aren’t really focused on what those values are, you can tend to have people that come into your organization that just don’t embody or or model those values.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Shayla McCormick — And so you can have a very, ah I don’t know what the, like division, I guess, in in your church and in the vision and in the culture. And so I have gone into a lot of churches and my husband and I love to invest in church plants. And one of the questions that I’ll always go in and ask because they’re having challenges, maybe with their volunteers or their teams. And it’s like, oh, this person’s complaining or this person’s doing this. Shayla McCormick — And I’m like, but okay, well, what, what do you value? And I just start asking, you know, some of those questions. And what I’ve realized is a lot of people don’t really know a value in the organization or what they want to see actually lived out in the life of their staff members, their key leaders, and ultimately into their their volunteer teams, you know, because it it is a trickle down. And so if if you don’t like what’s happening in your church, a lot of times you got to look at your team, right? Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah. That’s good. I love that. You know, there’s that pivot that happens. We go from like producing great services, doing making of the ministry, all of that. But then there is a shift that happens as we grow where we have to shift towards, we actually have to make a great organization that makes those things. Shayla McCormick — Yes. Rich Birch — And we’ve got to push that down. And part of that is through this values process. When you think… Shayla McCormick — Yeah. And I, I… Rich Birch — …I love that idea of they don’t know. And, oh, sorry… I love that idea of they don’t know. How did you come to that? How did you guys define that? What did that look like for you? How did you define your values as an organization? Shayla McCormick — Okay. This is, this is really interesting. So I think, as leaders, I started thinking about, okay, if I could think about one person that, whether they’re in my church, one person that I’ve been on a team with, whether it be at another organization or anything like that. And I was like, man, that person, I would love to work with them again.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Shayla McCormick — I would um like, they displayed these things in their life. And I started asking myself, what are the things that I consistently see in that person that I’m like, I always want that person around me. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Shayla McCormick — I always want that person, you know, close by. And so I said, okay, I need to start looking at those might be the values of the person that I want on my team.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Shayla McCormick — So we started going, thinking of the person first, and then going, what did they display? And that’s really kind of what I valued. And then I was like, okay, what’s, what’s kind of that middle ground person…
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — …that is like, okay, they’re great. But you know, and then there was like, the third person that’s like, I don’t ever want to work with that person again, honestly. And so I’m like…I know… Rich Birch — You’ve had those people? i don’t know what you’re talking about. Yeah. Shayla McCormick — And so I tried to like picture those three people.
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — And then that kind of shaped what we wanted to see modeled in our, in our leadership. And everybody has different values that they want to display or that they want to see in the life of their church. And I think the hard work is really asking ourself, what are the things that I actually value? Because people, a lot of organizations, a lot of churches have aspirational values, right? Like we want this, but how how are you actually facilitating or or communicating what that means? Shayla McCormick — I I heard Craig Groeschel one time say like, it doesn’t matter what’s written on your walls if it’s not happening in your halls, you know? Rich Birch — That’s good, that’s good. Yeah. Shayla McCormick — You you might think that that’s a value, but is that actually being displayed, you know, on your team? And so, again, for us, it went back to really thinking about who are those people…
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — …and then what do they display in their life? And that helped us shape some of those things. And so I as senior leaders, executive pastors, any any of that, like, we’re really going to shape the values of that organization. So we have to ask ourselves those questions, I think. Rich Birch — Yeah, when that idea of taking what’s, you know, internal or intrinsic and making it extra extrinsic is is a difficult process.
Shayla McCormick — Yes.
Rich Birch — That is you know because it’s there’s a lot of assumptions we have inside of ourselves that we’ve got to kind of get outside. Now you’ve defined, if I’m counting correctly, seven values. These are kind of like organizational values. Shayla McCormick — Yes. Rich Birch — We believe the best, we own it, we think people, (and we’ll put these on the show notes, friends), we live from the inside out, we make it better, we have risk-taking faith and we set the tone. There’s so much I’d love to talk about there. Are is there any one of those that what you would say was, as you were developing them, you’re like, ooh, this has been the kind of the tool that has shaped us the most. That’s and that could be, it’s been the hardest you know to to achieve. But has there been any one of those that really stood out as been the most formative? Shayla McCormick — Yes. I would say the one that we talk about the most and the one that we go back to the most is the one that says we believe the best. Rich Birch — Yep. Shayla McCormick — And really, this doesn’t mean that we walk around with like rose-colored glasses trying to look at people and going, oh, I’m just going to ignore that because I’m going to believe the best. It actually means that we have hard conversations that allow us to eventually believe the best about that person. So it allows us to maintain unity.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Shayla McCormick — Because unity is the, probably the biggest thing. And so we tell people like we believe the best about each other. So that means we have to fight for the unity. And that means if I’m struggling to believe the best, I need to have a conversation with Rich…
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good.
Shayla McCormick — …and I need to go, Hey, I’m struggling to believe the best right now because of this. Can we talk through that? Rich Birch — That’s good. Shayla McCormick — And it really helps us shape that. It also eliminates a lot of gossip. Like go to the person, don’t talk about the person. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Shayla McCormick — And so that’s really one that we talk about quite a bit. And we have, I feel like that one has defined very much of the healthy team culture that we have.
Rich Birch — That’s amazing.
Shayla McCormick — Because if somebody comes and has a conversation, our first response is, have you talked to them?
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — Have you gone to them so that you can continue to believe the best? Rich Birch — Maybe give us another example of that, you know, ah working that out. I can see that. Hey, ah you know, come to me.
Shayla McCormick — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Is there another, can you think of another time where we believe the best has you’ve had to, it’s pushed some operational, like, ooh, we’ve had to make a change or have some conversations that are around that? Shayla McCormick — I don’t know about about like make a change necessarily operationally…
Rich Birch — Sure.
Shayla McCormick — …but I will say like forward facing, let’s say the church to the church and somebody comes to one of our staff members and says hey I’ve got an issue with that person this person I can’t believe they did xyz, you know. Our staff, because we first of all believe the best regardless of how we feel about that, we’re gonna say, hey that really doesn’t sound like Rich’s character. You know, like I appreciate you coming to me about that. And in, you know, sharing those things, and then we’re going to go back and we’re going to conversation with that person.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Shayla McCormick — But forward facing, we’re always going to have the back of, you know, our, our teammate. And so that, that changes the, I think the dynamics and the interaction and the confidence of the people on our team, knowing that somebody is always going to have my back. They’re not just going to allow, you know, people to come and make accusations or, you know, be frustrated. But we’re going to we’re going to choose to to have each other’s backs in those moments.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Shayla McCormick — And I think that has helped you know shape shape a lot of things. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So you said it, I wasn’t gonna say it, but like sometimes these values, it’s the easy part is writing them, even though it’s a lot of work and like making a great graphic, putting them up on the wall. What have you done to take it from that to actually, you know, can walk us through how you’ve then made this like work itself out? Is there any kind of repeatable system or anything you’ve added to to ensure that we come back to these time and again? Shayla McCormick — Yes. So one of the things that I started asking myself is like, okay, we have these great values, right? We’ve we’ve worked really hard to go, what are our values and to really, you know, solidify those. Shayla McCormick — But now how am I holding people accountable to those values, right?
Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — Because we can say something, but if there’s no accountability that allows us to have difficult conversations to make sure we’re actually embodying those things in the life of our organization, then we’re just going to kind of be aiming at nothing. And so what I started doing was going, what are some tools and ways that, that we can actually make sure people are living these out within our organization. Shayla McCormick — So we actually came up with almost a self-evaluation tool for our team. And we listed out all of the values and, we began to say like, okay, let’s give ourself a plus or a minus on, on each of these values or a plus minus. Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — And so a plus would be like, I embody this value. A minus would be like, I struggle with this. And a plus minus would be, I do this sometimes, but I’m not really consistent at it. Shayla McCormick — And so we develop this tool with all of our values. And then what we do is quarterly, our team sits down with their direct report and they self-evaluate themselves on how they feel they’re doing on displaying those values. And then their boss basically evaluates them. And then they talk through like, hey, we’re different here. Why are we different? Rich Birch — Right, right. Shayla McCormick — Like, here’s how I see that you could maybe embody that a little bit differently. And explain to me why you feel like you’re weak in this, because I see you as being strong in it. And so it’s a chance to like celebrate. But it’s also a chance to have some corrective behavioral conversations around maybe where we feel like we’re missing the mark on some things. Shayla McCormick — And so there we also added a couple of questions on there that says, I get it, I want it, and I have the capacity to do it. And that’s really like their job. Like I feel like I get what I’m supposed to be doing. I get it.
Shayla McCormick — And then the I want it question is like, I still want to do this because I actually want to know, like, are you still in this and do you love what you’re doing still? Rich Birch — Right. Right. Shayla McCormick — And then the other one is I have the capacity to do it. Because we all know in the life of the church, sometimes things outgrow our capacity.
Rich Birch — Right. Wow.
Shayla McCormick — So I want to know from that employee, like, do you feel like you still have the capacity to operate in the role or are you overwhelmed by all of this? And do we need to have a different chair kind of conversation? Shayla McCormick — And this has really helped us carry this out and and like keep it in front of people. Cause honestly, Rich, I think there’s so many times in the church where we hire people for their gift and talent, but their like character and adherence to the to the values of that organization, they don’t really care about. And I would rather hire people based on values and teach talent and, you know, teach the skills. Rich Birch — The stuff you need to do. Yep, for sure. Shayla McCormick — But values are way more important to me because that’s what people are seeing displayed. Rich Birch — That’s so true. That’s so true. Shayla McCormick — Yeah. Rich Birch — Well, and we’re not doing rocket science. I would agree with you on that. Like it’s not, you know, what what we, what we do is not, it’s not incredibly complex. You know, we can teach a lot of it. Rich Birch — The thing I love, I saw this on that evaluation forum. I’m so glad you brought this up. I love that: I get it. I want it. I have the capacity. I think that’s, man, that is so wise. One of the things I’ve known and growing in a, in a fast growing church, particularly, I always tried to model and have tried to model, like, hey, my role, I this thing might outgrow me.
Shayla McCormick — Yes.
Rich Birch —And there and there may come a time where I have to step aside for the sake of the mission. And that has created a culture with my team being able to say that. But I love that you’re actually literally every quarter asking your people to reflect on that. Rich Birch — How have these evaluations then ended up translating into like steps, actionable changes in staff development or alignment you know around this? What are some things that you’ve seen? Oh, hey, here’s some positive change that’s happened because of this. Shayla McCormick — I think what I hear, what happens since we’ve implemented a lot of this is I hear more conversations centered around the values because…
Rich Birch — Love it.
Shayla McCormick — …so I feel like the values are really driving the decisions that they’re making. So I’ll hear people saying, Oh, okay. Our value is, you know, we own it. And so, you know, the other day there was a bunch of trash just sitting outside the door. So you know what? We own it. And so I took out the trash, you know, or whatever.
Shayla McCormick — So you just see the conversations beginning to shift.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Shayla McCormick — And then I’ll also say that as we implemented this, there were also some people that eventually exited the team because the dial was turned up on on, like, this is, this is what we’re displaying. Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — And I think some people self eliminated because they’re, they were just like, I’m not going to live up to that. And so there were several people actually that, you know, exited. And that was a healthy thing and a good thing um because those things weren’t going to be modeled. Shayla McCormick — And, you know, we we do shaping conversations even even at our staff meeting. Like I’ll i’ll give you an example. The other day at our staff meeting, we were sharing like we do wins at the beginning of our staff meeting. So stories of life change or how people are embodying the the life of our church. And one of the guys that is very new to our team, he’s been on the team for about three weeks. Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Yep. Shayla McCormick — He was sharing and he was like, man, this weekend there was like this, this huge carafe of coffee that got spilled in the lobby. Rich Birch — Yep. Shayla McCormick — And he was like, all of these people like run over to the coffee spill and everybody’s grabbing stuff and trying to clean it up and whatever.
Rich Birch — Right. Shayla McCormick — And he was like, I’ve been in churches where people wrote a walk the other way. But he’s like it kind of looked like somebody threw money on the floor and people were going to grab it, but it was actually a coffee spill. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Love it. Shayla McCormick — And I was able in that moment, because it’s a new staff member, and I said, hey, you know why you’re seeing that? It’s because the team in this room, our staff has modeled the value of “we own it” well. And they’ve seen us go first in all of those ways. And so they embody that too. So great job team owning it when there’s something that’s not even your job that you went and took care of, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Love it. That’s… Shayla McCormick — And so it’s kind of cool how how you can shape or, you know, facilitate conversations even around what they’re saying to highlight, this is why it’s happening and let’s celebrate that. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s, that’s like 201, 301 leadership there. That’s to capture a moment like that and be able to point back and say, hey, that’s because of this value, the framework that you’ve designed and have been able to, you know, point your people towards. That’s, ah yeah, that’s, that’s amazing. Rich Birch — How else do you, do how else, I know so in some churches, they’ll like go through these values, like once a staff meeting. They do a different one every time. Do you do anything like that? Is there teaching done around these? How, what does that, that part of it look like? Shayla McCormick — Yeah. So we typically we typically pick one and talk about them in a staff meeting. Right now, we actually have one that is our theme for the year that we feel like God’s asked us to focus on kind of this one thing. Rich Birch — Okay. Shayla McCormick — And so we talk about that regularly at staff meeting. Because we do this, here’s what we’re going to do this week, you know. But we try to speak about at least one of them every staff meeting or highlight something like I just talked about, connect it back to a value. Shayla McCormick — And then we do staff development days where where we do teachings, you know, specifically…
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — …on these on these, you know, values. But I think our biggest add value is that is the quarterly.
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — But especially like as you’re onboarding new staff, I’m I’m seeing this now. We’ve we’ve had an influx of new staff. And I’m even rethinking like, okay, how am I being super intentional about connecting people to these values consistently?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Shayla McCormick — Because we all know a couple of people can disrupt your culture if, you know…
Rich Birch — Absolutely.
Shayla McCormick — …if they’re not modeling something well or they don’t understand it. And so I’m even like, okay, new season of like figuring out how am I gonna incorporate these even more…
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Shayla McCormick — …into those conversations in different environments.
Rich Birch — Yeah, culture is so critically important. It is, you know, like there’s all those sayings, right? Like culture eats strategy for lunch. And, you know, we you can have all kinds of great plans, but man, if our team is not aligned around the right culture or, you know, it can become toxic, man, that’s—it can be really terrible.
Shayla McCormick — I would say we have more conversations…
Rich Birch — Talk to me about quarterly… Oh sorry. Go ahead.
Shayla McCormick — I would say we have more conversations about our values than we do job performance, you know?
Rich Birch — Right. Right. Well, because if you’re violating culture stuff, then that does start to get to like who you are as a person. It is more core to them than—yeah, like you say, I can teach you to get better at Planning Center…
Shayla McCormick — Yeah.
Rich Birch — …or how to make better videos or whatever. Like there’s lots of what we do that we can train you to. But like, if you—at your core—if you really don’t want to, if you don’t believe the best in other people, or if you can’t, think about people first or, you know, live from the inside out. Like if you’re constantly guarding yourself, like that’s really hard to get under.
Rich Birch — So talk to me about quarterly. Like why so lots of churches, or I’ve heard churches, do this like on an annual basis. What led you to think about, you know, checking in quarterly?
Shayla McCormick — Yeah. So on an annual basis, we do a performance evaluation.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.
Shayla McCormick — But quarterly is when we do the values evaluation conversation.
Rich Birch — Okay. Okay. Right.
Shayla McCormick — It’s—again, it’s—you have to keep things in front of people so that they understand how important that is. We’ve all heard the term like “vision leaks,” right? If you don’t talk about those things consistently, it’s easy for people to forget about that.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Shayla McCormick — And most of the time, our corrective or harder conversations are going to be centered around these values.
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — And to be honest, Rich, if we have too many of these conversations where people have like two negatives in their boxes, we’re talking about a performance improvement plan and/or an exit from the team. Because we believe in the culture that much and that it shapes our church. So really the quarterly is because we want to keep it in front of people…
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Shayla McCormick — …and we want to keep them changing and growing in these areas so that we see that trickling down into the life of our church and even in our volunteers. And I think what this has done is really shaped—even though these are our staff and leadership values—it’s shaped so much of the culture of the church…
Rich Birch — Sure.
Shayla McCormick — …because you actually see our church begin to embody these things because that’s what they’re seeing the leadership do.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Love that. So, you know, I think Coastal will continue to grow. You guys will reach more people, launch more campuses.
Shayla McCormick — Yes.
Rich Birch — When you look up over to the horizon, what are your thoughts, questions you’re asking around how are you going to plan or adapt what we’re doing, evolve this thing to continue to push forward the staff culture? Any kind of questions on the horizon that you’re wondering about or thinking about for the future on this front?
Shayla McCormick — Yeah. Like my constant thought is, you know, as we grow, as we launch new locations, as we add staff—and the further my husband and I get—the more layers you add to your organization, the more difficult it is probably to maintain that heart, that culture, that vision. And so I’m a constant tinkerer. How can we do this better? How can we make this more available or visible? How can we continue to have these clarifying conversations? And so I think I’m asking myself in this season, how do I get the heart and vision from this top tier of leadership to be felt way down the organization?
Shayla McCormick — And so we’re even coming up with some things right now to be able to, when we’re onboarding staff, creating some little talks around those values that are coming from TJ or I, just so that they see that. And honestly, the thing that they always need to see is their pastors and their leaders modeling those things as well.
Rich Birch — Yeah, so true. Yep.
Shayla McCormick — So it’s this constant evaluation of—for me—even those top tier leaders that I’ve put in those positions have to be the ones that are that are modeling that.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Shayla McCormick — And so I think I just keep asking myself, as we grow…
Rich Birch — Right.
Shayla McCormick — …what can I add or perfect or make better that allows this guy to continue to drive this organization and that we don’t lose just the authenticity of who we are as leaders, you know?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Shayla McCormick — So…
Rich Birch — Love it. So good. And just as we come to land today’s episode, anything else you’d love to say? Any final thoughts, maybe for a leader who’s listening in and thinking, “Yeah, we got to take some steps towards this.” We’re going to link to this PDF in the show notes to show about the staff values, staff evaluation that we’ve been talking about here, friends. And the thing I love about this: it’s super clean, simple, easy to understand, but super powerful. I can see how, man, if we did this, it would make a huge difference. But, anything you’d love to share with us just as we land today’s episode?
Shayla McCormick — I would say all of this, like I just want to encourage those top-tier leaders is all of this starts at the top, right?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Shayla McCormick — We’ve heard that it’s more caught than taught. And I think as senior leaders, sometimes we underestimate what people are catching from our behavior and what we’re doing, not just what we’re saying.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Yes.
Shayla McCormick — I think it’s easy to say all of these things, but what are they seeing you model? And I think that is of the utmost importance—that that happens at the top and that we never forget why we’re doing this and the value that it brings to our organizations. Especially as we grow and we get bigger and we have more demands on our time that we can’t forget the simple modeling of the things that we’ve put in place.
Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good.
Shayla McCormick — So, yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah. And that’s probably key to the core problem we talked about at the beginning—of values just staying on the wall somewhere. I think that the caught versus taught is a big piece of that. You know, at some level, I think in those organizations it’s like, “Yeah, we don’t actually believe that stuff.”
Shayla McCormick — Exactly.
Rich Birch — It looks good, but you know, we don’t believe it.
Shayla McCormick — Right.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Well, Shayla, this has been such a helpful, encouraging, super practical conversation today. I really appreciate it. If people want to track with you or track with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Shayla McCormick — Yeah. So they can follow our church on Instagram. It’s @coastalchurch – it’s probably the best way to get a window into our church. And I’m not super active on social media…
Rich Birch — Nice.
Shayla McCormick — …but it’s @shaylamccormick.
Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.
Shayla McCormick — But life is crazy. And I’m like, “Social media? I don’t know how to do it all.”
Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Got to live life, not document it.
Shayla McCormick — Exactly.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks so much, Shayla. Really appreciate you being here today. Thanks for being on the episode.
Shayla McCormick — Absolutely. Thanks, Rich.
Burnout, Breakthrough, and the Road to a Healthier Ministry with Bob Riedy
May 29, 2025
Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Bob Riedy, Senior Pastor of Church of the Open Door in Pennsylvania. After leading one of the fastest-growing churches in the country, Bob found himself facing a personal and professional breakdown. In this deeply transparent episode, he shares his journey through burnout, […]
Cracking the Outreach Code in Your City with Quovadis Marshall
May 22, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today, we’re talking with Quovadis Marshall (Pastor Q), Lead Pastor at Hope City Church in Waterloo, Iowa. Caught up in a life of gangs and violence, he became incarcerated at nineteen years old. However, Pastor Q experienced a life-transforming encounter with Christ through the Prison Fellowship Academy Program. Now […]
Leaving Well: A Behind-the-Scenes Story of a Healthy Staff Exit with Rachel Long & Danny Anderson
May 15, 2025
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we’re joined by Danny Anderson, Lead Pastor of Emmanuel Church in Indiana, and Rachel Long, founder of the Joshua Center. They share their story of navigating a significant transition when Rachel moved from being the Executive Pastor at Emmanuel Church […]
Cut Prep Time, Boost Engagement: The Future of Preaching with Eric Smith
May 08, 2025
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Eric Smith, founder and lead pastor of Hope City Church in Florida and co-creator of SermonDone. Are you a pastor who’s feeling the pressure of sermon prep each week? Wondering how you can save time on research and content creation without compromising the quality […]
The #1 Question Growing Churches Should Be Asking Now with Aaron Stanski
May 01, 2025
Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re joined today by Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a church design and project management firm that helps growing ministries align their physical spaces with their mission. With a background in engineering and church leadership, Aaron brings unique insights into how churches can strategically […]
LCBC: 19 Campuses in the Rust Belt with 25,000 Attendees? Keys to Multisite at Scale
Apr 24, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast during our All About Multisite month. Today we’re talking with David Ashcraft, CEO and President of the Global Leadership Network (GLN), and former Senior Pastor of LCBC Church in Pennsylvania. Are you wrestling with growing pains as your church multiplies? How does an expanding multisite church keep its vision […]
The Money Question: How to Fund, Sustain, and Grow a Thriving Multisite Church
Apr 23, 2025
Let’s face it: talking finances can be uncomfortable, but it’s a critical conversation, especially in multisite ministry. Today, I’m tackling one of the toughest—and most essential—questions in multisite: How do we fund, sustain, and scale financially healthy campuses? Throughout our All About Multisite series, I’m providing practical answers every Wednesday and hosting insightful interviews with […]
Christ Fellowship Miami: Homegrown Leaders, Global Impact in a Thriving Multisite Model
Apr 17, 2025
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this All About Multisite month podcast episode we’re talking with Omar Giritli, Lead Pastor, and Carlos Cardenas, Executive Pastor at Christ Fellowship. With campuses spread across Miami, the Caribbean and South America, Christ Fellowship has truly become a model of how to lead a diverse, multi-generational […]
Multisite Myths Busted: How to Overcome the Biggest Multisite Growing Pains
Apr 16, 2025
The multisite journey isn’t always smooth—even thriving churches experience growing pains. Today, I’m busting some of the biggest myths and offering practical insights to overcome common struggles within multisite churches. Every week during All About Multisite month, I’m diving deep into practical solutions on Wednesdays and hosting behind-the-scenes conversations with multisite leaders on Thursdays. Today’s […]
One Church: Preaching, Prayer & Presence—A Fresh Take on The Multisite Model
Apr 10, 2025
Welcome back to another special All About Multisite episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re joined today by Bo Chancey (Senior Pastor) and Jeremy Peterson (Executive Pastor) from One Church, a growing multisite church based in New Hampshire. With four physical “outposts” and a thriving online presence, One Church is reaching communities across rural and suburban […]
Many Locations, One Church: How to Keep Your DNA While Adapting to Local Campuses
Apr 09, 2025
Multisite ministry sounds great—one church, many locations—but practically speaking, balancing centralized consistency with local campus adaptations is a real challenge. In today’s episode of the All About Multisite series, I want to help you manage this important balance effectively. Throughout this series, I’m sharing practical wisdom every Wednesday and insightful interviews with successful multisite churches […]
The Summit Church: Clarity, Culture & Core—Keys to Leading 13 Campuses
Apr 03, 2025
Thanks for joining us for this special episode of the unSeminary podcast as we kick off All About Multisite month. In this conversation, we’re joined by Rick Langston and Daniel Simmons from The Summit Church in North Carolina. Rick serves as the Executive Pastor of Strategic Initiatives, and Daniel is the Executive Pastor of Campuses […]
Is Your Church Ready for Multisite? Avoiding Costly Mistakes Before You Launch
Apr 02, 2025
Multisite churches have dramatically increased—from just a few hundred in the early 2000s to over 5,000 today. I’ve had the honor of being at the core this movement for nearly 2.5 decades, having led 13 multisite launches and coached many more. My goal in this solo episode is to share insights from my own experience […]
Future-Focused Churches: Why Relational Discipleship Matters with Kara Powell
Mar 27, 2025
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this episode we’re talking with Kara Powell, the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute and Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary. How is your church engaging with the next generation? Building connection and trust with young people can be difficult in today’s world. […]
The Leadership Balancing Act: Building Trust as a Middle Manager in a Large Church with Diana Rush
Mar 20, 2025
Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today, we’re talking with Diana Rush, the Senior Director of Build Community at Eastside Christian Church, a multisite church with locations in California, Nevada, and Minnesota. Are you a middle manager in a church trying to balance the pressures from both your senior leadership and your […]
Right People, Right Seats: Rethinking Church Staffing for Growth with Amy Anderson
Mar 13, 2025
Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Amy Anderson, the managing director at The Unstuck Group. Unstuck helps pastors grow healthy churches by guiding them through experiences that align vision, strategy, team, and action. Is your church feeling stuck or overwhelmed by its growth? Wondering if you have the right […]
Seven Days, Not Just Sundays: Using Technology to Engage Your Church All Week Long with Tyler Vance
Mar 06, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tyler Vance, the COO of Apollos, a digital platform designed to help churches thrive by using technologies for personal growth. Despite being more digitally connected than ever, people lack deep, meaningful relationships. Gen Z has often been called the loneliest generation in history. However, churches are uniquely […]
Building Bridges, Not Barriers: A Gospel-Centered Approach to Immigrant Ministry with Rick & Patti Love
Feb 27, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rick and Patti Love, founders of the organizations Love New Canadians and Love New Internationals. These ministries equip churches to serve new immigrants, refugees, and international students in their neighborhoods. Since 2014 Rick and Patti Love have worked with more than 700 churches and ministries in […]
Healthy Things Grow: Building a Unified and Thriving Staff Team with Chad Bickley
Feb 20, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Chad Bickley, the executive pastor at Skyline Church in California. Is your church experiencing growth, but you’re struggling with how to maintain a healthy team culture? Wondering how to create a culture that drives growth while ensuring your staff remains aligned and healthy? In this episode […]
Big Dreams, Healthy Rhythms: Avoiding Burnout in Growing Churches with Danny Anderson
Feb 13, 2025
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Danny Anderson, the Lead Pastor at Emmanuel Church in Indianapolis, Indiana. Is your church growing quickly, but you’re feeling the pressure? Wondering how to balance church growth with spiritual health for yourself and your staff team? Danny shares his journey of leading a fast-growing […]
Great Leaders Over Great Content: Secret Sauce to Thriving Groups with Adam Ader
Feb 06, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Adam Ader, the Groups Director at Parkview Christian Church in Illinois. Is your church looking to improve how you connect people into life-changing groups? Wondering how to lead a growing group ministry that truly impacts people’s lives? Tune in as Adam shares valuable insights on […]
Breaking Free: Addressing Sexual Brokenness in the Church with Nick Stumbo
Jan 30, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Stumbo, the Executive Director of Pure Desire Ministries. According to a Barna study, 75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women view pornography at least occasionally, with 67% of pastors having a personal history of porn use. How can churches effectively address pervasive issues […]
The Art of Preaching: Balancing Depth and Accessibility in a Secular World with Mark Clark
Jan 23, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re learning from Mark Clark, the founder of Village Church, a multi-site church with locations in multiple cities across Canada and online around the world. He is […]
Repurpose, Reach, Renew: Unleashing AI for Your Church’s Mission with Kenny Jahng
Jan 22, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re learning from Kenny Jahng, founder of Big Click Syndicate and AI for Church Leaders, and Editor in Chief of Church Tech Today. We’re talking about how […]
700 Million and Counting: Your Church’s Role in the Fight Against Extreme Poverty with Mike Mantel & Jonathan Wiles
Jan 16, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re hearing from Mike Mantel, the President and CEO, and Jonathan Wiles, the Chief Operating Officer, of Living Water International (LWI), a faith-based global humanitarian organization. Together […]
Preventing Marital Breakdown: Creating Proactive Support Systems in Your Church with Nicky & Sila Lee
Jan 15, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This January we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by Nicky and Sila Lee of The Marriage Course // Alpha International, and are talking about how marriages will still be struggling. Nearly half of […]
Mentoring Gen Z Leaders: Insights from Leadership Pathway’s Residency Program with Dave Miller
Jan 09, 2025
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This January we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by Dave Miller, co-founder of Leadership Pathway, and are talking about how the next generation will matter more. Are you curious about how your church […]
Healthy Digital Habits: How Churches Can Support Families in a Tech-Driven Culture with Natalie Frisk
Jan 08, 2025
Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re continuing with our special series called unPredictions 2025 – these are timeless topics that will keep shaping church leadership in 2025 and beyond. Today we’re talking with Natalie Frisk, the director of curriculum at Raise Up Faith, about how parents will be worrying about their kids. […]
Faster Connections, Lasting Community: Effective Church Assimilation with Greg Curtis
Jan 02, 2025
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. To kick off the new year, we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless topics that are consistent and crucial for church growth in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by Greg Curtis, the Director of First Steps and Content Development at Eastside Christian Church and founder of Climbing the […]
Rebuilding and Relaunching: Lessons in Church Renewal with James Griffin
Dec 19, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with James Griffin, the lead pastor at Crosspoint City Church in Georgia. Is your church working through a difficult season and struggling to see fruit? Wondering how a church can overcome significant challenges and emerge stronger than ever? In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast James shares […]
Power of a Map, Not a Menu: Transforming Ministry Strategy with Mariners Church’s Jared Kirkwood
Dec 12, 2024
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jared Kirkwood, the Executive Pastor of Ministries and Lead Pastor at the Irvine location of Mariners Church in California. A church’s mission isn’t much without a strategy. How are you aligning, training, and equipping people at your church to take their next steps […]
Building Leaders for the Next Generation: Insights on Developing Residency Programs with Pat Gillen
Dec 05, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Pat Gillen, the Executive Pastor of Families and a teaching pastor from First Baptist Simpsonville / Upstate Church in South Carolina. How are you cultivating leaders at your church? Are you trying to figure out your next step for developing Gen Z? Tune in as Pat […]
Staying Aligned as a Staff Team in a Growing Church: Insights from Andy Hill
Nov 28, 2024
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Andy Hill, the Executive Pastor at Mobberly Baptist Church in Texas. How do you keep your church’s staff aligned? The more your church grows, the more challenging it is to keep everyone connected and moving in the same direction. In this episode of the unSeminary […]
Embracing Digital for Church Growth: Insights from Saddleback’s Online Pastor Jay Kranda
Nov 21, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda this week, the online campus pastor at Saddleback Church in California. What are you doing with online church? How does it fit in with your digital strategy? How can digital tools strengthen in-person community? Tune in as Jay discusses a team-based approach to digital […]
Stability in Transition: Insights on Church Succession from Drake Farmer
Nov 14, 2024
Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m looking forward to talking with Drake Farmer, the Executive Pastor of Ministries from Beulah Alliance Church in Alberta, Canada. Are you curious about how churches manage leadership transitions smoothly? Learn about the strategic and intentional planning behind the leadership transition as Daniel Im (interviewed here) […]
Leadership People Will Trust: Insights from Jenni Field’s Nobody Believes You
Nov 13, 2024
In this deep dive episode of the unSeminary podcast, we explore Jenni Field’s insightful book Nobody Believes You: Become a Leader People Will Follow. This conversation delves into practical strategies and timeless leadership principles tailored especially for those guiding teams in a church context. Field’s book offers a fresh perspective on becoming a credible leader […]
Grow More, Send More: Building a Sending Church with Andrew Hopper
Nov 07, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Andrew Hopper, the founding and lead pastor of Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina. Andrew has also started Breaking Barriers, which provides pastors and churches with biblical strategies to help them grow in order to go. Are you curious about how to effectively grow […]
Kids Ministry in a Changing World: Building a Thriving Children’s Ministry with Justyn Smith
Oct 31, 2024
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast! This week we have with us Justyn Smith, Executive Kids Pastor at Cornerstone Church in Arizona and a story catalyst at Plain Joe. What does an effective children’s ministry look like? What does kids’ ministry at your church look like when you put yourself in the shoes of a child, […]
How to Make Your Church Irresistible: Proven Strategies for Creating an Invite Culture
Oct 30, 2024
In this Deep Dive episode of the unSeminary Podcast, the hosts explore how to make your church irresistible by discussing Rich Birch’s book, Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture: Strategies for Church Growth That Work Today. The conversation unpacks Birch’s insights on how churches can cultivate an environment where members naturally want to invite others into […]
From Despair to Connection: Helping Youth Overcome Mental Health Challenges with Will Hutcherson
Oct 24, 2024
Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Will Hutcherson, a Next Gen and Student Pastor who has become increasingly passionate about finding practical ways to bring hope to kids and teens who are facing anxiety, depression, and despair. This led to him starting Curate Hope, a non-profit that focuses on […]
Rethinking Your Kids’ Ministry Spaces: Aaron Stanski with Practical Tips for Church Leaders
Oct 17, 2024
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with return guest Aaron Stanski, the founder and CEO of Risepointe. They provide creative design solutions so that your church’s mission isn’t held back by its building. Is your kids’ ministry space feeling tired? Churches often take more design risks with kids’ environments through use of color […]
Portable Church Success: Systems that Last and Leaders that Thrive with Jeff Beachum
Oct 10, 2024
Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Jeff Beachum with us. He’s part of Portable Church Industries (PCI), which has helped thousands of churches launch and operate successfully in mobile settings. Jeff serves as the Multiplication Specialist and Director of Marketing. Is your church running out of capacity, but looking for […]
Prepare for the Unexpected: Crisis Communication Strategies for Your Church with Kim Tarlton
Oct 03, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to talk with Kim Tarlton, the General Manager of Church Communications Group which helps church communicators navigate the complexities of the modern communication landscape. Many churches operate under the misconception that crises won’t happen to them. However, crises can arise from various sources, including issues in the […]
Marking a Milestone: Carey Nieuwhof’s Change Leadership Insights 10 Years Later
Sep 26, 2024
Thanks for joining us for today’s unSeminary podcast. Carey Nieuwhof has been a guiding light in the church leadership space for decades and this week we’re celebrating the ten-year anniversary of his podcast. To mark this special occasion, we’re revisiting an interview we did with him 10 years ago. Do you have things at your […]
Can a Church Stay Mid-Sized and Still Multiply? A Conversation About Growth and Vision
Sep 19, 2024
Welcome to an Office Hours episode of the unSeminary podcast. In our Office Hours episodes I’m happy to answer your questions that you can submit via an audio file through our website. Mark Strickland is the lead pastor at Milton Bible Church in Milton, Ontario, Canada. His mid-sized church has about 300 attending on Sunday […]
Building an Inviting Church: Greg Griffith on 60% Growth in Two Years
Sep 12, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Greg Griffith, Lead Pastor at King of Kings in Omaha, Nebraska. If your church does what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. But when you take a risk and step out of your comfort zone, who knows how God can use […]
Building Trust and Unity in a Fast-Growing Church: Drew Karschner’s Insights on Empathy and Authenticity
Sep 05, 2024
Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. This week Drew Karschner is joining us. He’s the Lead Pastor at Northridge Church in Rochester, New York – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. While church growth is a blessing, it often comes with hardships that must be navigated carefully. Whether your church is […]
Creating Inclusive Spaces: Making Churches Accessible for All with Kerri-Ann Hayes
Aug 29, 2024
Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kerri-Ann Hayes today. In addition to being a senior consultant at Ministry Architects, Kerri-Ann has worked in children’s and family ministry for over 20 years and has a heart for making churches more inclusive for families with special needs. At our churches we want […]
Redefining Ministry for Men: Brian Tome on Man Camp and Spiritual Awakening
Aug 22, 2024
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re sitting down with Brian Tome, the founder and senior pastor at Crossroads Church in Cincinnati – one of the fastest growing and most innovative churches in the country. Whether we realize it or not, the systems in our churches are often set up to cater to […]
The Volunteer Playbook: Secrets to Building a Thriving Ministry Team with Nick Blevins
Aug 15, 2024
Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. Today, we have repeat guest, Nick Blevins, the Children and Student Team Leader at Community Christian Church in Maryland. He is also the cofounder of Ministry Boost which helps leaders fast forward their growth in ministry through training, coaching, and consulting. Every church out there could use […]
Out of the Seats and Into The Streets: Leading Effective Community and Global Outreach with Kristin Flynn
Aug 08, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Kristin Flynn, the Outreach Director at Liquid Church in New Jersey. She leads the charge in both local and global outreach. Putting our faith into action through loving service is an important part of following Jesus. So how do we help the people at our […]
From Blown Up Lives to New Beginnings: How Summit Christian Church Transforms Communities with Bryan Smith
Aug 01, 2024
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Bryan Smith, the lead pastor of Summit Christian Church in Sparks, Nevada. We are increasingly living in a culture where many are completely unchurched, having no preconceived notion of what church looks like. Yet this can provide just the opportunity where people are […]
Community First: How Century Church is Redefining Outreach and Church Spaces with Patrick Quinn
Jul 25, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Patrick Quinn, the lead pastor at Century Church in Alabama. Century has a vision to plant one hundred churches across America in order to see more people brought into a life-saving communion with Jesus Christ. Can you imagine a church so ingrained in a local community […]
Strategic Growth and Alignment: Lessons on Mergers, Multisite, and Ministry with Brian Owens
Jul 18, 2024
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to talk with Brian Owens, Executive Pastor of Operations at First Baptist Simpsonville / Upstate Church in South Carolina. In American culture it’s very normal to want your own voice and identity. Yet this can be challenging when you’re trying to align a church with […]
Mastering Communicating Change in Your Ministry with Dawn Nicole Baldwin
Jul 11, 2024
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dawn Nicole Baldwin from Mavericks, an organization which helps churches be more effective in their communications. Is there a major change your church is thinking about, but you’re not sure how to communicate it? How do you ensure that your messages are aligned […]
The Disciple Dilemma: Insights from Fighter Pilot CEO Dennis Allen
Jul 04, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dennis Allen today, a former fighter pilot who became a six-time Turnaround CEO and now helps churches rethink discipleship. The vast majority of younger people who were raised in the church are leaving at alarming rates. 80% of the people sitting in our churches are spiritually […]
Elevating Your Church’s Funding to New Heights with Phil Ling
Jun 27, 2024
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with generosity expert Phil Ling today. He offers strategic and energetic leadership to The Giving Church consulting team, helping churches fuel their ministries. The largest transfer of wealth in the world is going on right now. With four generations alive at the same time, churches […]
Beyond Sundays: Liquid Church’s 24/7 Ministry Model with Lauren Bercarich
Jun 20, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re joined today by Lauren Bercarich, the Digital Director at Liquid Church, with seven campuses in New Jersey as well as a robust online campus. Digital ministry is no longer a supplementary aspect of church operations; it has become a cornerstone for reaching and engaging people. Tune in as […]
Setting Roots, Spurring Growth: Thriving New Campus Location Growth with Aaron Stanski & Aaron Mora
Jun 13, 2024
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with two Aarons—Aaron Stanski, CEO and Founder of Risepointe, and Aaron Mora, the Alma Campus Pastor of Community Church in north central Michigan. If your church is growing, chances are you’ve wrestled with questions about your location or building meeting your ministry needs. Tune in to […]
The Discipleship Opportunity: Blueprint for a Post-Everything Church with Daniel Im
Jun 06, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We have Daniel Im joining us, the Lead Pastor of Beulah Alliance Church in Alberta, Canada. The world is a very different place from what it was just a few years ago. While it’s tempting for churches to try to find a way back to how things used to […]
The Staff Health Puzzle: How Central Christian Operationalizes Alignment with Joe Platania
May 30, 2024
Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Joe Platania today, the Executive Pastor of Human Resources, Staff Development, and the Central Leadership Institute at Central Christian Church in Arizona. Maintaining a healthy staff culture at a growing church is no small feat, particularly when you have multiple campuses. How do you lay […]
From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Most Churches’ First Steps
May 29, 2024
This is part four of an ongoing series where we explore the “Goldilocks growth rate”—a concept aimed at helping churches grow at a pace that’s impactful yet sustainable. Understanding the Goldilocks Growth Rate The Goldilocks growth rate is all about balancing rapid growth with the ability to effectively integrate new members into your church community. […]
Beyond Accessibility: Gail Ewell’s Vision for Church Inclusivity
May 23, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Gail Ewell a leader at Bay Area Christian Church and Hope Technology School. Gail’s story is one of personal struggle and triumph. As a mother of children with special needs, she faced significant challenges in attending church. Her experiences shed light on the isolation and […]
Key Takeaways from XPS 2024: Navigating Organizational Doubt, Leadership Stages & Target Audiences
May 22, 2024
This week, we delve into the highlights of the XP Summit 2024, or XPS, as it’s affectionately known within the executive pastor community. Held at the vibrant Flatirons Church in Denver, this year’s event was a powerhouse of insights, connections, and practical takeaways for church leaders. Here are some key points from my solo podcast […]
Vision to Reality: How Executive Pastors Shape the Church’s Future with Phil Taylor
May 16, 2024
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re welcoming back Phil Taylor, a seasoned leader with over 20 years of experience in various pastoral roles and a passion for helping pastors turn vision into reality, which he does through his ministry, Backstage Pastors. Tune in as Phil shares insights on the importance of the […]
From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Engagement Pathway Best Practices
May 15, 2024
We’re aiming for what might be called the Goldilocks growth rate—quick enough to make a substantial impact but sustainable so it doesn’t overwhelm your resources or team. To achieve this, we’ve identified that retaining 26% of new guests is pivotal. To effectively double a church’s attendance from 1,000 to 2,000 members over 1,000 days, or […]
Exploiting Limits for Church Growth: Insights from A Better Theory’s Nathan R. Elson
May 09, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Nathan R. Elson. He is the founder and chief theorist with the organization, A Better Theory. Every ministry, every church, and every leader has problems they have to deal with. Regardless of the size of your problems, it is possible to develop a pattern of […]
The Four Key Factors of Magnetic Community Service That Drive Invite Culture
May 08, 2024
In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we delve into the transformative impact of magnetic community service on building a vibrant church invite culture. Drawing inspiration from outreach initiatives at prominent churches like Elevation’s Love Week and Church of the Highlands’ Serve Day, we explore how strategic mass outreach can drive your congregation’s growth and […]
Calling the Next Gen to Leadership: Insights on Empowering Emerging Changemakers with Brad Dreibelbis
May 02, 2024
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Brad Dreibelbis, Next Gen and Operations Pastor at The Journey, a church in Delaware. How do you identify and find high caliber leaders, particularly from the next generation? Too many churches wait for young leaders to be trained in other places instead of raising […]
From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Understanding New Guest Metrics
May 01, 2024
Today, we’re continuing our series on how your church can expand from 1,000 to 2,000 members in just 1,000 days. We’re focusing on the practical steps and metrics essential for managing such significant growth without overburdening your team or losing touch with the community’s needs. This discussion builds on our ongoing series, where we explore […]
40 Day All-In Campaigns for Your Church: Unleashing Discipleship & Growth with Zach Zehnder
Apr 25, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Zach Zehnder, the co-founder of Red Letter Living. Zach is a pioneer in creating 40-day challenges that have transformed discipleship and church growth in over 1000 churches. He’s also the teaching pastor at King of Kings in Omaha, Nebraska. You know that disciple-making is important, but […]
5 Counterintuitive Truths About Hiring for Church Leadership
Apr 24, 2024
You’ve often heard me stress the importance of culture, revenue, and vision in our churches, and our approach to hiring is at the heart of shaping our culture. Let’s explore five counterintuitive truths about hiring that I’ve uncovered through my experiences and coaching other church teams. 1. Judge by the Past, Not by Potential In […]
Volunteering as Mission: Cultivating a Culture of Engagement with Mary Ann Sibley
Apr 18, 2024
Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mary Ann Sibley, church leader cheerleader and volunteer ministry ninja who works to make you look like the hero as you improve your volunteer culture. Does it ever feel like there’s a lack of ownership when people serve at your church? How do you […]
From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Key Metrics for Explosive Church Growth
Apr 17, 2024
Today, we’re diving into the mechanics of rapid church growth, specifically how a church can potentially double in size—from 1,000 to 2,000 members—in just 1,000 days. If you’ve been pondering how to expand your congregation effectively and sustainably, this is the episode for you. The Balance of Growth Rapid church growth is exhilarating but maintaining […]
Embracing the Future with Humility: Community Christian’s Leadership Succession with Ted Coniaris
Apr 11, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Ted Coniaris, the Lead Pastor Apprentice at Community Christian Church. One of the fastest growing churches in the country, Community Christian is an entrepreneurial church which has been a ministry “teaching hospital” and vanguard for decades. Whether it’s five years or fifty years, every lead […]
Attention Economy: Understanding Its Impact On Your Church’s Mission
Apr 10, 2024
In our rapidly evolving digital landscape, the concept of the attention economy has become increasingly relevant, especially for churches seeking to navigate this new terrain effectively. At its core, the attention economy is about the commodification of human attention, where businesses and organizations vie for our focus amidst an overwhelming sea of information. This shift […]
Redemptive Poverty Work: Transforming Urban Communities Through Faith with Rev. Dr. Alvin Sanders
Apr 04, 2024
Thank you for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to have Rev. Dr. Alvin Sanders from World Impact with us. This organization comes alongside church leaders and offers training and support designed for the urban context. The American Church has devalued the urban space, either fearing it or viewing it as something to […]
Easter 2024 Stats Exposed: Insights Your Church Can’t Afford to Ignore
Apr 03, 2024
During this episode of the unSeminary, we dived into the Easter 2024 attendance figures, collating responses from a wide array of churches. The total combined attendance hit a staggering 249,377, revealing much about the state of church engagement during this important “Eventful Big Day.” The Importance of Eventful Big Days Easter can be an “Eventful […]
The Jewish Road: Uniting Act 1 and Act 2 of Our Faith Journey with Matt Davis
Mar 28, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Matt Davis from The Jewish Road, an organization that works to help Christians make sense of their Jewish roots while helping Jews make sense of Jesus. Most Christians have a basic understanding of Jesus and His teachings, but they aren’t getting the whole story. Jesus has […]
From Vision to Reality: Crafting a Future Where More People Meet Jesus with Paul Alexander
Mar 21, 2024
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m joined by Paul Alexander, the Executive Pastor at Sun Valley Community Church in Arizona. As church leaders, sometimes we can have a natural aversion to strategic planning. Yet we see in the scriptures, from beginning to end, that God has a plan. And He wants […]
Leading Through Growth: Executive Pastor Roundtable with Jeremy Peterson, Kayra Montañez, & Jesse DeYoung
Mar 20, 2024
This episode of unSeminary brings together a distinguished panel of Executive Pastors—Jeremy Peterson, Kayra Montañez, and Jesse DeYoung—for an insightful roundtable discussion. These seasoned leaders from across the country share their frontline experiences and strategies in navigating the complexities of expanding churches in today’s rapidly changing ecclesiastical landscape. What You’ll Learn: Guest Bios: This episode […]
Wonderful: Charting the Path to Fulfillment in a World Overflowing with Options with Travis Spencer
Mar 14, 2024
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we have with us Travis Spencer, the lead pastor at The Fields Church in Mattoon, Illinois. We’re talking with Travis about his book Wonderful: How to Live a Fulfilled Life in a Very Full World. Have you ever thought about writing a book? Tune in as Travis discusses […]
Bridgetown’s Pivot from Livestream to Local: Kenny Jahng & Rich Birch Discuss
Mar 13, 2024
In an era where digital presence is almost synonymous with accessibility, Bridgetown Church’s recent decision to cancel their livestream services stands out as a bold counter-current move. This episode of the unSeminary podcast, featuring a conversation between host Rich Birch and guest Kenny Jahng, dives deep into the implications and motivations behind this pivot. Here’s […]
Unlocking Generosity and Engagement: Key Takeaways from Church Growth Incubator Retreat
Mar 07, 2024
In today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast, we pull back the curtain on an extraordinary gathering that promises to revolutionize the way church leaders envision growth and community engagement. Fresh from the Church Growth Incubator retreat held at Mariner’s Church in Irvine, Southern California, we’re eager to share a treasure trove of wisdom that emerged […]
From Attendance to Engagement: Zach Interviews Rich About Transforming Your Church’s Growth Strategy
Feb 29, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m happy to sit down with Zach Zehnder, who runs an organization called Red Letter Living. The mission of Red Letter Living is to challenge all people to become greater followers of Jesus Christ. Thousands of individuals and hundreds of churches have taken one of their 40-day discipleship […]
The Diffusion of Innovation Curve and Leading Change at Your Church
Feb 28, 2024
In the dynamic landscape of church leadership, the concept of change is both inevitable and essential. As leaders, our mission extends beyond merely maintaining the status quo; it involves steering our congregations toward a brighter, more engaging future. This journey of transformation, however, is far from straightforward. It demands a nuanced understanding of how change […]
FILO: Empowering Technical Artists in Your Church with Todd Elliott
Feb 22, 2024
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Todd Elliott, a writer, speaker and audio engineer serving the local church. He’s also the founder of FILO: First In, Last Out, which is built around supporting technical artists who serve the local church. Do you ever feel like there is a disconnect […]
Church Merger Tactic: Expanding Your Church’s Reach with “The Letter Method”
Feb 21, 2024
In today’s solo episode, I’m diving deep into a topic close to my heart and crucial for any growing or multi-site church considering expansion: church mergers. This isn’t just another growth strategy; it’s a pivotal approach that could significantly impact how we reach more people and foster an inviting church culture. The Growing Trend of […]
From Downturn to Turnaround to Steady Growth in a Rural-ish Community with Joseph Berkobien
Feb 15, 2024
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Joseph Berkobien, the Lead Pastor of Frankenmuth Bible Church in Frankenmuth, Michigan. Transitions in leadership can be challenging times for churches. How do you recover and grow after a season of decline? Tune in as Joseph shares the turnaround story of […]
Reflections on Christian Ministry at the Halfway Point with Jon Thompson
Feb 08, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jon Thompson, the lead pastor at Sanctus Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Being a Christian leader is a marathon, not a sprint. In the middle of the social media and the politics and the pressures and the fear and the questions, we can be tempted to […]
From Eye Rolls to Engagement: Boosting the Effectiveness of Your Church’s Announcements
Feb 07, 2024
This episode tackles a critical yet often overlooked aspect of church services: announcements. Far from being mere placeholders, announcements have the potential to drive engagement within your church significantly. We start with a relatable discussion on why church announcements typically induce eye rolls rather than enthusiasm. Recognizing this issue is the first step towards transformation. […]
Protecting Your Church’s DNA: Jon Delger on Building Culture Within a Fast-Growing Church
Feb 01, 2024
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We have Jon Delger with us today, the Executive Pastor at Peace Church in Michigan—one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Whether your church is growing a little or a lot, change to the people making up your church will change your culture. How can […]
From First Fifty to New Frontiers: Mike Signorelli on Moving Your People to Deeper Levels of Commitment
Jan 25, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Signorelli, Lead Pastor at V1 Church – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country with locations in New York City and other cities across the country. Are you feeling stuck moving people at your church to increasing levels of commitment? Wondering how to manage […]
Revitalizing Invitation: Strategies for Engaging Your Church Community
Jan 24, 2024
Today’s episode is unique and particularly close to our hearts as we address a question from one of our listeners, Drew Williams, head pastor at New Life Lutheran Church. This direct engagement with our audience not only reinforces our community’s interconnectedness but also grounds our discussion in real-world church leadership scenarios. Drew’s church, nestled in […]
Pastoral Transitions: Matt Davis on Best Practices in Moving Members Off Your Team
Jan 18, 2024
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. This week we are talking to Matt Davis, the President and Chief Pastoral Officer at Pastoral Transitions. This ministry exists to help churches love and support their outgoing pastors and their families. They provides transition services to help pastors continue their life ministry for building God’s kingdom. Every pastor […]
Doubling Impact: Navigating the Shift from One to Two Church Services
Jan 17, 2024
Why add another service? Growth and multiplication are signs of a healthy church. This isn’t just about getting more people in seats in the building; it’s about creating new opportunities for reaching out, engaging more volunteers, and widening your church’s impact. Remember, every empty seat is a missed opportunity to change a life. Breaking the […]
Fast-Growing Follow Up: Insights from Pantano Christian Church’s Growth with Trevor DeVage
Jan 11, 2024
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m talking with Trevor DeVage, the lead pastor at Pantano Christian Church in Tuscon, Arizona. Trevor has talked with us before and is back sharing how to recognize opportunities at your church and embrace best practices to create space for growth. You can learn more about Pantano […]
Beyond the Budget: Innovative Ways to Increase Church Revenue
Jan 10, 2024
This solo episode offers practical insights, strategies, and inspiring stories aimed at helping church leaders expand their fiscal horizons. The discussion kicks off with a look back at the remarkable achievements of the ‘Best Year End Ever’ cohort, part of The Art of Leadership Academy. Success stories from various churches demonstrate the immense potential and […]
Executive Pastor Profile: Sam Beatty from Grace Church, Cleveland
Jan 04, 2024
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have with us Sam Beatty, the executive pastor from Grace Church outside of Cleveland, Ohio. As our churches grow, they naturally become more complex. It’s important to keep them focused and drive towards simplicity so we don’t drift from the mission and vision. Tune […]
2024 Unpredictions: Timeless Church Leadership Challenges & Solutions
Jan 03, 2024
As we step into the fresh possibilities of 2024, it’s vital for church leaders to discern between fleeting trends and enduring challenges. In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we delve into the “2024 Unpredictions,” a guide to the timeless challenges and solutions that will shape church leadership this year. Core Themes: While we embrace […]
Digital Rabbi: Unlocking Your Purpose and Passion with Sats Solanki
Dec 28, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Sats Solanki, the founder of Reflect Church in London. Sats is not just a pastor but also a coach, speaker, and host of the podcast, Digital Rabbi. Tune in as he shares about the unique journey of Reflect Church and its strategically slow approach to rebuilding […]
Lessons from Christmas: Elevating Your Church’s Impact
Dec 26, 2023
As church leaders, we often find the post-Christmas period a time for reflection and planning. The festive season’s hustle has settled, and it’s time to ponder on our successes and the areas where we yearn for growth. In this latest episode of the unSeminary podcast, we delve into crucial insights and strategies to transform your […]
Persevering After Being Fired by Your Church: Kyle Isabelli Reflects on His Journey
Dec 21, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with repeat guest, Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor from Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Did you know that as many as one third of people working in church ministry will be forced to resign or be fired from their position? If you’ve ever […]
Beyond Predictions: Increasing Generosity at Your Church Amidst Economic Fog
Dec 19, 2023
As we step into 2024, churches face a unique challenge amidst a mixed economic outlook. With predictions ranging from robust growth to stagnation, it’s crucial for church leaders to focus on effective revenue generation strategies. One key area that offers significant potential is the enhancement of offering talks. Understanding the Economic Landscape The economic forecasts […]
Why Your Team Should Do a 90 Day Bible Reading Challenge (& How!) with Mary DeMuth
Dec 14, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mary DeMuth today, an international speaker, podcaster, and author of nearly fifty books. You may have read through the Bible in a year, but have you considered reading the entirety of scripture in just 90 days? In today’s conversation, Mary shares how this 90-day challenge started […]
The January Bump: Game-Changing Perspective on Christmas Attendance Targets for Your Church
Dec 13, 2023
A New Metric for Success: The January Bump Traditionally, we judge the success of our Christmas services by the number of attendees. But what if we shifted our focus to what I like to call the ‘January bump’? Imagine measuring success not just by the numbers during Christmas but by the increase in attendance we […]
The Chosen: Stan Jantz on Reaching 1 Billion People, Ministry Innovation & Helping Your Church
Dec 07, 2023
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Stan Jantz today, the Chief Executive Officer of The Come and See Foundation. In partnership with ministries around the world, Come and See is on a mission to share the authentic Jesus with 1 billion people worldwide. Throughout history, followers of […]
Residency Reflections: Saddleback Church’s Brittany Crimmel on Her Leadership Pathway So Far
Nov 30, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brittany Crimmel, a Production Director at Saddleback Church in California. There is a leadership crisis in the local church with so many churches struggling to know how to find and develop people. However, by participating in internships and residencies, churches can contribute to developing the […]
Behind the Leader: Ian Borkent’s Journey of Burnout and Relaunch
Nov 23, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Ian Borkent from C3 Rivers Church in the Netherlands. Ian also started the ministry Grow a Healthy Soul to help church leaders take care of their souls. Church leaders often focus on metrics such as attendance, salvations and finances to gauge the health of their church, […]
Secrets of Top Team Players: Insights from 30,000 Leaders & William Vanderbloemen
Nov 16, 2023
Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking again with William Vanderbloemen, the founder and CEO of Vanderbloemen Search Group, an organization that helps identify executive talent and matches value-based organizations with like-minded people. When it comes to hiring the best people, what factors cause them to shine? How can you learn to identify […]
Talking with Your Lender: Mark Briggs Offers Insider Advice for Growing Churches
Nov 09, 2023
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mark Briggs, the Executive Vice President of Ministry Lending at CDF Capital. CDF Capital is dedicated to helping churches solve problems and bridge the financial gap often faced when trying to expand and reach more people. Mark has been with CDF for over 20 years, helping churches […]
Guest-Friendly Environments: Aaron Stanski on Effective Facilities for Your Church
Nov 02, 2023
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Stanski, the founder and CEO of Risepointe, with fifteen years of church design and ministry leadership experience. Do you feel frustrated with your church building, or like it’s holding you back from fulfilling your mission? Aaron’s experience has given him unique insights into the common […]
Increasing the Generosity Culture at Your Church with Phil Ling
Oct 26, 2023
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Phil Ling, a renowned expert on generosity in the church and founder of The Giving Church. Did you know that in the average church in North America, 45% of the people that give a church money give less than $200 […]
Increase Engagement with Data-Driven Strategies: Ronee de Leon on Unlocking Your Church Database’s Potential
Oct 19, 2023
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Ronee de Leon, the Director of Executive Project Management from Grace Fellowship, a multisite church in Ohio. Many churches have some sort of church management software and mountains of data. But figuring out how to make it actionable so you’re connecting with your […]
Mission Trips vs. Strategic Visits: Nathan Nelson on Transformational International Partnerships for Your Church
Oct 12, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nathan Nelson, Pastor of Mission and Outreach at Bethany Community Church in the Seattle, Washington region. Do you ever feel like short-term missions trips actually push against creating deep, lasting change in the communities you serve? Tune in as Nathan shares how to move beyond the […]
Engagement Pathway: Greg Curtis & Tommy Carreras on Best Current Practices on Assimilating People at Your Church
Oct 05, 2023
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras. Greg is the Pastor of Guest Engagement at Eastside Christian Church, a multisite church in California, Nevada, and Minnesota. He’s also founder of Climbing the Assimalayas, a website focused on helping churches design an engagement pathway that fosters connection, enables […]
Transforming Team Culture: Karen Berge’s Insider View on the Shift from Unhealthy to Thriving
Sep 28, 2023
Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Karen Berge, the Executive Pastor of Ministry at Flatirons Community Church. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country with five physical campuses in Colorado as well as church online. Many churches are able to say there are good things happening there. […]
How to Leverage AI for Your Church & Your Future with Kenny Jahng
Sep 21, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the second of a two-part series (you can listen to part one of the podcast here) with Kenny Jahng, an expert when it comes to using AI in the church, and the founder of Big Click Syndicate. In today’s episode we’re delving into the implications of […]
How Your Church Can Have the Best Year-End Ever with Kenny Jahng
Sep 14, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the first of a two-part series with my friend, Kenny Jahng, the founder of Big Click Syndicate which helps cause-driven organizations get their messages in front of the right audiences. Did you know the last 45 days of the year are crucial for charitable giving? Because […]
Fostering Community in a Fast-Growing Multi-Campus Ministry: Scott Freeman on Effective Pastoral Care
Sep 07, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scott Freeman, the Pastor of Community at Grace Church in South Carolina. As a church expands, there is a constant tension to manage between growth and deep community. Grace Church has experienced significant growth over the years with ten campuses and over 250 community […]
The Future of Faith is Child-Friendly: Stephen Moore on WinShape Camps for Communities
Aug 31, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to be talking with Stephen Moore, the Director of WinShape Camps for Communities. WinShape, an organization started in 1985 by Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, started as a college program and has since grown into five different ministries, with focuses on professional development, marriages, […]
He Gets Us: Kyle Isabelli on Reaching Out to Non-Christians with Gloo
Aug 24, 2023
Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor of Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Wondering how to connect with hurting people in your community who might not venture through your church’s doors? In today’s episode Kyle and I have a fantastic conversation […]
Faith Forward: Fr. Peter Wojcik on Strategies for Engaging Millennials, Gen Z, & Gen Alpha in the Church
Aug 17, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we are joined by Father Peter Wojcik, pastor at Saint Clement Parish in Chicago. Do you struggle to engage Gen Z in your church? Do you want to invite younger generations into ministry, but aren’t sure where to start? Saint Clement is a dynamic Catholic community in the […]
From Struggle to Success: Evan Courtney on Revitalizing a Church Campus Amidst Challenges
Aug 10, 2023
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Evan Courtney, the Executive Pastor at The Fields Church in central Illinois. Have you ever experienced decline in your church or felt like everything was going wrong? Don’t miss this encouraging conversation as Evan testifies to the power of perseverance, overcoming obstacles that lead […]
Uniting the Church to Quench the Global Water Crisis: A Conversation with Mike Mantel
Aug 03, 2023
Thanks for tuning into today’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Mantel, the CEO of Living Water International. They are a faith-based global humanitarian organization that links arms with churches around the world to serve thirsty communities through access to safe drinking water, sanitation, and hygiene. What if the church of Jesus Christ could end […]
Nurturing the Spirit of Advent with Families at Your Church: Chris Pappalardo & Clayton Greene on the GoodKind Approach
Jul 27, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Greene from The Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina. Chris is Editor on the Creative Arts team and Clayton is the Summit Collaborative Director. Have you started planning for Christmas yet at your church? Are you looking for a way to help […]
The Art of Working with (Almost) Anyone: Michael Bungay Stanier Offers Coaching For You As You Lead At Your Church
Jul 20, 2023
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with coach and writer Michael Bungay Stanier, who is best known for his book, The Coaching Habit, which is the bestselling coaching book of the century. We all know that not all work relationships can be perfect, but how can we improve them? In today’s episode, Michael […]
The Resilience Factor: Insights from Léonce B. Crump Jr. & Warren Bird on Unbreakable Teams
Jul 13, 2023
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Léonce B. Crump Jr. and Warren Bird. Léonce is an author plus the co-founder and senior pastor of Renovation Church in Atlanta. Warren is a repeat guest on unSeminary. He works for the Evangelical Council for Financial Ability (ECFA) and is also the […]
When Pastors Aren’t Angels: Becca Pountney on Wedding Industry Challenges
Jul 06, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Becca Pountney, the UK’s number one wedding business marketing expert and host of the podcast Wedding Pros Who Are Ready to Grow. Did you know that many wedding professionals have a negative perception of church weddings? From difficulty accessing church buildings and strict rules, to […]
Long-Term Vision, Lasting Impact: Curt Seaburg on Strategic Vision in Church Leadership
Jun 29, 2023
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Curt Seaburg, the lead pastor of Victory Church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. While it’s important for church leaders to learn from each other, when it comes to vision, it’s critical to know yourself and the God-given calling for your church within its unique community. Listen to […]
Hybrid Church in a Digital Age: Collin Jones on the State of Church Tech Today
Jun 22, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Collin Jones, the chief ambassador at Resi, part of the organization Pushpay. Pushpay provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app to the faith sector while Resi helps deliver reliable livestream solutions to churches. Online services and live streaming […]
Exploring the State of Church Staff Health: Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen on Findings and Insights from New National Study
Jun 15, 2023
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast! Today is part 2 of a conversation that we started back in April with Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. If you’re curious about the state of church staff health in the US, you won’t want to miss this episode as we dive into the findings of […]
Discipleship Leadership Development in Church Planting: Stevie Flockhart’s Leadership Journey
Jun 08, 2023
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stevie Flockhart, Lead Pastor of 901 Church in Tennessee. Have you ever struggled with the desire for personal recognition and validation in ministry? In this unSeminary podcast episode Stevie shares his personal journey and struggles with comparison and the desire for success. Listen in […]
Long-Term Leadership: Jeff Cranston on Steady, Purposeful Leadership
Jun 01, 2023
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Lead Pastor Jeff Cranston with us from LowCountry Community Church in Bluffton, South Carolina. How can churches maintain balance in ministry and create engagement within their congregation and staff? This is a question that Jeff answers in today’s episode of the unSeminary Podcast. Don’t miss this conversation […]
Doing Less to Reach More: Trevor DeVage on 160% Church Growth in 18 Months
May 25, 2023
Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lead Pastor Trevor DeVage from Pantano Christian Church in Arizona, one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Is your church in a season of growth, needing to streamline its ministries? Or are you trying to simplify your systems so that they […]
Practical Help on Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Ken Nash
May 18, 2023
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Ken Nash, the Lead Pastor of Cornerstone Church in Michigan, is with us today. For decades churches measured how well they were doing based on counting nickels and noses, but with the upheaval and loss churches have experienced over the last few years, they need to change […]
Training Your Team to Lead Through Others with Phil Caporale & George Probasco
May 11, 2023
Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lead Pastor, Phil Caporale, and Campus Pastor and Kingsway Leadership School Site Director, George Probasco, from Kingsway Church in New Jersey. As a church leader, one of the most challenging aspects of your role can be developing leaders. While it can be difficult to identify […]
Leaning in on the Important (& Potentially Awkward) Conversations Around Women in Leadership at Your Church with Lisa Penberthy
May 04, 2023
Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lisa Penberthy, a church leader and consultant with 20 years of experience and an M.Div and MBA in nonprofit management. She is currently serving as the COO at Dannah Investment Group and is passionate about stewarding people’s callings as well as church resources. […]
Closing the Gap Between Your Church’s Vision & Execution with Nick Thompson
Apr 27, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Thompson, the Executive Pastor at The Living Stone Church in Denver, Colorado. How is your church executing on its vision? If you’re a church leader looking to create a practical framework for decision-making, a Vision Frame might be just what you need. Listen to this […]
Building a Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Sustaining a Strong Team Culture with Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen
Apr 24, 2023
Welcome to today’s special episode of the unSeminary podcast where we are replaying our recent webinar called “Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Building and Sustaining a Strong Team Culture” with my friends Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. In this webinar, Todd and Matt discuss the importance of cultivating a healthy […]
Being a Clarity Champion on a Senior Leadership Team at a Fast Growing Church with Kasey Husen
Apr 20, 2023
Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kasey Husen, the Executive Director of Communicatons and Events at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. Kasey talks with us about the importance of having a Communications Director at the senior leadership level at your church. Beyond branding and marketing, Kasey shares how they can […]
Leading Through the Crisis Your Church is In (Or About to Be In) with Rusty George
Apr 13, 2023
Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George this week, the lead pastor of Real Life Church in Southern California. In addition to being a pastor, Rusty is a speaker, teacher and author focused on making real-life simple. As leaders, we all face difficult times and crises that challenge […]
Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress with Brian Dodd
Apr 06, 2023
Thank you for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Brian Dodd back with us. He’s the Director of New Ministry Relationships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions, as well as blogging at Brian Dodd on Leadership and the author of several books. Brian is talking with us about the current state of the church […]
Sunday Service Dedicated to Pre-schoolers & Their Parents? Church Growth Lessons from Marcus Gibbs & Bubble Church
Mar 30, 2023
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We have a real treat today. We recorded this interview in person while in London, England with Marcus Gibbs, Vicar at Ascension Church. Are you looking for innovative ways to reach unchurched communities and serve the next generation?Listen in as Marcus shares the simple yet engaging Bubble […]
Leveraging Data to Drive Ministry Outcomes at Your Church with Erik Henry
Mar 23, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Erik Henry, the Executive Pastor of Central Christian Church in Wisconsin. Data is critical to accurately understand what’s happening at your church and what’s changing over time. Listen in as Erik discusses the importance of using data to make informed decisions at your church as […]
Moving from Spanish Translation to a Full Spanish Ministry with Tim Hill
Mar 16, 2023
Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Tim Hill, executive pastor at Bear Creek Church, located at the crossroads of West Houston, Katy and Cypress, Texas. Every zip code in America is more diverse today than it was ten years ago. And it will be even more diverse ten years […]
Seeking God’s Best for Your Church Even in a Hostile Environment with Terry A. Smith
Mar 09, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Terry A. Smith with us today; he’s the lead pastor at The Life Christian Church (TLCC) which serves the New York City metro area. He recently wrote a devotional called, The Lord Bless You: A 28-Day Journey to Experience God’s Extravagant Blessings, and today we’re unpacking a […]
Building a Positive Working Relationship with Your Church’s Financial Institution with Eric Schroeder
Mar 02, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re having a great conversation with Eric Schroeder, the president and CEO of CDF Capital, an organization that helps churches grow in order to transform lives and communities. Financial matters, like spiritual matters, are very personal. And when you’re dealing with something personal, it can be hard to develop […]
4 Minutes Every Weekend to Increase Revenue & Spread Culture at Your Church with Taleah Murray
Feb 23, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Taleah Murray, the Executive Pastor of Ministries at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. One of the areas Taleah oversees at Crossroads is offering talks and using video to share the impact that the church’s generosity is having as people give. Listen in as she […]
Kadi Cole Interviews Rich Birch about Female Leadership in the Church
Feb 16, 2023
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole who leads the organization Kadi Cole & Company which helps with leadership development, management skills training, executive level coaching and more. This time Kadi is taking over hosting the podcast as she interviews Rich on how men can open […]
XP Roundtable: Finances, Volunteers, Staffing & More with Lisa Penberthy, Jeremy Peterson & Brandon Beard
Feb 09, 2023
What larger trends are impacting churches across the country? The landscape of our culture continues to shift & evolve. Growing churches respond to those changes and find ways to thrive. Learn from the latest insights on trends and how those impact you and your team. Don’t miss this special podcast episode as we hear from […]
Get a Head Start on Your Church’s Multi-Use Strategy with Frank Bealer
Feb 02, 2023
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Frank Bealer, the co-founder and Chief Growth Officer of Phase Family Centers as well as Chief of Staff at Local Church. Is your church considering a multi-use strategy? Does it seem overwhelming as you think about how to get started and all that you […]
Help to Fight the Scourge of Predictability in Your Church Services with Lance Burch
Jan 26, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Lance Burch from Reality Church in Omaha, Nebraska. He often explores and identifies current cultural phenomena and then tries to find a way to connect them to biblical truth. Listen in as Lance shares how to pay attention to the questions the culture around us is […]
Tithes & Offerings Are No Longer Enough To Fund Your Church with Mark DeYmaz
Jan 19, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Mark DeYmaz, who planted Mosaic Church in Arkansas and is co-founder of Mosaix Global Network. We’re nearly a quarter of our way through the 21st century and yet some churches are still operating on models from the 1960s. In spite of good intentions […]
Reflecting on Seasons of Life, Leadership & Their Impact on Your Team with Lee Coate
Jan 12, 2023
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lee Coate, the executive pastor at The Crossing in Las Vegas, and the president of Growmentum Group. Today Lee is talking with us about Growmentum Group, how they are helping church leaders accomplish their missions, and how to use the different seasons of leadership that are […]
Doing the Right Things for the Right Reasons with the Right People at Your Church with Scot Longyear & Heath Bottomly
Jan 05, 2023
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re with returning guests Scot Longyear and Heath Bottomly today. Heath is the Lead Pastor of the Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona and Scot is the Senior Pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana. Scot and Heath talk with us about their book Fight […]
Lessons from Inside a Rapidly Multiplying Church with DeWayne McNally & Paul Schulz
Dec 22, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with DeWayne McNally and Paul Schulz from Hill Country Bible Church in Austin, Texas. DeWayne and Paul both serve as executive pastors of ministry by dividing the responsibilities; DeWayne handles the operations, multiplication and family ministries while Paul takes care of the personal/spiritual growth related ministries, including […]
Reframing Evangelism at Your Church with Shaila Visser
Dec 15, 2022
Thank for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Shaila Visser, the Global Senior Vice-President for Alpha International. Alpha is an 11-week course that creates a space for people to invite their friends for a conversation about life, faith and Jesus. Worldwide, an increasing number of pastors believe evangelism is wrong. This mindset, […]
Business as Core to the Mission of Your Church with Johnny Scott
Dec 08, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to be talking with Johnny Scott, the lead pastor of Generations Church in Trinity, Florida. Ever wonder what a self-sustainable church might look like? Curious about how to use business as ministry? Listen in as Johnny Scott shares how churches can use holy-owned businesses to reach their […]
Working Genius with the Team at Your Church with Patrick Lencioni
Dec 01, 2022
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Patrick Lencioni, one of the founders of The Table Group and an expert in leadership, teamwork, and organizational health. Pat’s also the author of 13 books which have sold millions of copies around the world, and today he’s talking with us about […]
In The Trenches of Guiding a Church to Be More Outsider Focused with Chuck Fenwick
Nov 24, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Chuck Fenwick, lead pastor at New Haven UMC in Indiana. How do we build churches that are both reaching new people, and caring for the people who are with us? It’s a universal tension all church leaders face. Listen in as […]
What Are the Best Predictors of a Church’s Ability to Multiply Itself? A Warren Bird Conversation
Nov 17, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Dr. Warren Bird with us today. He’s the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), and an author of over thirty books. Warren is back to talk about the New Faces of Church Planting survey which was performed back […]
Creating & Sustaining an Empowering Culture at Your Church with Dr. Derry Long
Nov 10, 2022
Thanks for joining us here at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derry Long, from the Yellowstone Theological Institute. He’s served for 45 years in many church leadership roles and is here to share his knowledge with us. At churches, it’s not uncommon for 20% of the people to do 80% of the work, […]
Embracing a Team Mentality to Spark Growth at Your Church with Aaron Tredway
Nov 03, 2022
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast – so glad that you have decided to tune in. This week we have with us Aaron Tredway, Lead Pastor of Fellowship City Church in Ohio. As church leaders, we know that when we empower others, we can accomplish more together than we can alone. But it can be hard […]
Under the Hood of a Multiplying Church of Nearly 30 Church Plants with Josh Husmann
Oct 27, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Josh Husmann, lead pastor at Mercy Road Church in Indiana. Mercy Road is one of the top reproducing churches in the country with a passion for multiplying disciples, leaders, churches, and expanding the reach of the gospel throughout the state of […]
Leading Slow & Steady Change in a Fast Growing Church with Mark Williams
Oct 20, 2022
Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Mark Williams, Executive Pastor at New Day Christian Church in Port Charlotte, Florida. The last few years have seen a lot of changes for church leaders and their congregations. How do you continue to grow and change when people are burned out and […]
Gaining Brand Clarity That Makes Growing Your Church’s Mission Simple with Joey Speers
Oct 13, 2022
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to talk with Joey Speers, a brand builder and digital marketer. He and his wife founded the Speers Collective Inc., the parent company of Creativ Rise and Brand Therapy. Joey is talking about how churches can generate brand clarity that makes growing their mission simple […]
Leading Change in the Midst of the Messiness of Ministry with Mike Bonem
Oct 06, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mike Bonem, a coach and consultant who helps church leaders with vision discernment, organizational design and strategy. In the last three years, everyone has had to make massive changes. Now as churches have found their new normal and are looking to the future, there can […]
Technology Insights to Drive Ministry Outcomes with Aaron Senneff
Sep 29, 2022
Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Aaron Senneff, the Chief Technology Officer at Pushpay. Pushpay is a digital engagement platform that provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app, to churches. Technology is more important than ever in the church. But how […]
Outreach Lessons from the Statistically Most Secular City in North America with Jeremy Norton
Sep 22, 2022
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jeremy Norton, lead pastor at Mountainview Church in Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. Being a church leader in a place like the Yukon is a little like living in the future. Listen in as Jeremy shares how to engage with your neighbors and city in a post-Christian […]
Practical Help on Taking Your Messages from Good to Great with Pete Briscoe
Sep 15, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Pete Briscoe, who was the senior pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas for almost thirty years and preached through the Telling the Truth ministry, reaching an audience of more than 1.2 million people every week. Currently Pete is a coach for church and […]
Journey Beyond Burnout & Compassion Fatigue with Janetta Oni
Sep 08, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Janetta Oni, the Creative Director at The Summit Church in North Carolina. Compassion fatigue is far more common in ministry than we might like to admit. It can be easy to wear busyness like a badge of honor while burning out in the process. But […]
Inside the Groups Ministry of a Fast Growing Baptist Church with David Raney
Sep 01, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with David Raney, the Executive Pastor of Ministry from 2ND Baptist Church in Arkansas. 2ND Baptist is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, and as a growing church they want to make sure people get plugged in so they don’t fade away. Listen in […]
Advice on Taking Your Best Next Step When Life Is Uncertain with Jeff Henderson
Aug 25, 2022
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jeff Henderson, founder of The FOR Company, which helps organizations build a good name where purpose and profit grow together. Many people are more familiar with what the Church is against rather than what the Church is for. What does your church WANT to […]
Aligning Mission & Organization to Achieve Creative Outcomes with Heath Bottomly
Aug 18, 2022
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We are talking with Heath Bottomly, the Lead Pastor of Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona. Does your church’s organizational structure match the vision that you believe you have been called to? Listen in as Heath shares how to get clarity about what is true, realign your […]
Leading in the Unchangeable Present with Larry Osborne
Aug 11, 2022
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Larry Osborne, the Teaching Pastor and Kingdom Ambassador at North Coast Church. North Coast has nine locations in California, one in Ohio, one in Hawaii, and one in both Mexico and Japan. Churches can be tempted to look back to the old way […]
Managing High Performance Multisite Creative Teams with Melody Workman
Aug 04, 2022
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Executive Creative Director Melody Workman from California-based Sandals Church – one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years now. It’s hard for churches everywhere to build high performance volunteer teams. Often our growth strategy for volunteer teams doesn’t match our […]
Burnout, Perfectionism & Identity: Inside Chris Hahn’s Personal Journey to Restoration
Jul 28, 2022
Welcome to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Chris Hahn, the Executive Pastor of Missional Spaces at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. In the demands and activity of ministry, church leaders can find there is a disconnect between their public leadership and struggles in their personal lives. Don’t miss today’s podcast […]
Leading Through Healthy Open Brokenness & Vulnerability with Carl Kuhl
Jul 21, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Carl Kuhl with us, the lead pastor of one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Mosaic Christian Church in the Baltimore/Washington, DC area. Listen in as Carl shares about the missing piece that will help people in our churches go deeper, both with God […]
The Surprising Journey Toward Being a Community Focused & Fast Growing Church with Vern Streeter
Jul 14, 2022
Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Vern Streeter, the lead pastor at Harvest Church in Billings, Montana. Harvest Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the country and has had a long-time value of being community-focused. Listen in as Vern chats with us about paying attention to the […]
Balancing A Growing Family & Ministry with Paula Ley
Jul 07, 2022
Welcome back to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Paula Ley, executive pastor at Radiant Church in the Tampa Bay area. Paula is talking with us about the spheres of influence in our lives and how to balance the busy seasons of ministry while still prioritizing our most important relationships. Ministry is […]
Latest Church Trends Post-COVID with Tony Morgan
Jun 30, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tony Morgan, the founder and lead strategist of The Unstuck Group, which offers consulting and coaching for churches as well as practical resources such as courses, access to research and more – all to help churches get unstuck. The Unstuck Group does quarterly trend reports that […]
Healing the Racial Divide in Your Church with Derwin Gray
Jun 23, 2022
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derwin Gray, the lead pastor at Transformation Church in South Carolina. In the bible we see every nation, tribe, and tongue worshiping Christ together, yet in our country and churches we continually see examples of the racial divide. Listen in as Derwin shares […]
Leading in Our Churches & Community in this Current Moment with Dino Rizzo
Jun 16, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. In this episode we’ll be chatting with Dino Rizzo, the executive director of the Association of Related Churches (ARC) as well as part of the senior leadership team at Church of the Highlands. ARC was created in 2000 by six pastors and has grown to be a preeminent church […]
International Business & Marketing Coach Chris Ducker Offers Advice for Church Leaders
Jun 09, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with marketplace leader Chris Ducker, who is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and runs several businesses. As churches find themselves more a part of the online world, there is continually a challenge to connect with people in a meaningful way. Listen in as Chris shares how to […]
Helpful Insights for Church Leaders with Brian Dodd
Jun 02, 2022
Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This time we’re talking with Brian Dodd, the Director of New Ministry Partnerships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions. He also runs a blog called Brian Dodd on Leadership which provides perspective, encouragement, and solutions for church and ministry leaders. When you look at the world today, there seems […]
Coaching on Rebuilding a “New” Launch Team for Your Church with Shawn Lovejoy
May 26, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Shawn Lovejoy, the founder and CEO of Courageous Pastors and Courage to Lead. His work is all about coaching leaders around what keeps them up at night and focuses on personal and organizational growth. Shawn is talking with us about building and redeploying healthy teams in […]
Reflecting Back 5+ Years After a Sr. Leader Transition with Executive Pastor Kevin Cook
May 19, 2022
Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kevin Cook, executive pastor at Cross Point Church in the greater Nashville, Tennessee, area. They have six locations in middle Tennessee plus online services. God has entrusted those of us who are executive pastors with a significant leadership. While He may be preparing […]
Encouragement For You From Nearly 4 Decades of Ministry Experience with Greg Surratt
May 12, 2022
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Greg Surratt, the founding pastor of Seacoast Church in the Carolinas and also a founding member of ARC, Association of Related Churches, which trains, coaches, and equips church plants across the country. So many pastors are wrestling with similar concerns and soul care issues today. They are […]
Pushing Your Church’s Culture Forward in This Current Season with Jenni Catron
May 05, 2022
Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenni Catron, the founder and CEO of the 4Sight Group which helps both leaders and their teams be healthy and thriving. With the disruptions that covid has brought, many church leaders are struggling with a sense of overload and fatigue. Shifts in how we […]
Insights on Pastoral Restoration After a Fall with Shawn & Sonny Hennessy
Apr 28, 2022
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Shawn and Sonny Hennessy, from Life Church Green Bay in Wisconsin. Shawn and Sonny are also co-hosts of The Rise After the Fall podcast and together founded The Exchange Collaborative. The highs and lows of ministry, and the trials of life can threaten to destroy pastors […]
Latest HR Dynamics Impacting Your Church With Tiffany Henning
Apr 21, 2022
Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tiffany Henning, founder of HR Ministry Solutions which helps with human resources in churches and faith-based ministries. At the beginning of 2021, many churches were restructuring their staff. Now in 2022 with so much inflation, there are concerns about how to compensate staff fairly. These things […]
Helping You & Your Team Ditch Discouragement, Fear and Anxiety with Scot Longyear
Apr 14, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scot Longyear, the senior pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana, and guest host for the Worship Leader Probs podcast. Two years after the pandemic, church leaders are still trying to figure out where to go from here. It’s been a tough season to […]
Moving Beyond the Stream of Church Online with Jay Kranda
Apr 07, 2022
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda, the online pastor of Saddleback Church in California. Digital ministry is here to stay and churches need to think about how to move beyond just managing their weekend stream to actually connecting people online to the church and each […]
Shifting Paradigms Impacting Growing Churches with Sean Morgan
Mar 31, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Sean Morgan, founder of The Ascent Leader, a year-long development program structured around relational cohorts which is designed to engage ministry leaders in transparent conversations and one-on-one coaching with world-class leaders. As we transition from COVID being pandemic to endemic, there are paradigms church leaders have […]
Tips for Making Your Church More Single Friendly with Kaylee Estes
Mar 24, 2022
Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kaylee Estes who was the Connections Pastor at Restoration Community Church in Denver, Colorado. More and more people are single in our churches today than in previous generations. Younger people are waiting longer to get married, the divorce rate continues to increase, and […]
Inside a 4X Growth In Group Engagement at a Growing Church with Joe Boyd
Mar 17, 2022
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Joe Boyd, lead pastor of Grace Fellowship in Minnesota. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country as well as a church-planting church and have started 28 churches during their 34 years of service. Jesus changed the world with a small group. Groups […]
Crucial Conversations with Team Members at Your Church with Matt Slocum
Mar 10, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Matt Slocum, executive pastor at Victory Life Church in Battle Creek, Michigan. Conflict is inevitable in relationships and it’s important to handle it well. Matt is talking with us today about how Victory Life Church sought to help its staff get better at having crucial […]
Is Church Multiplication on the Rise? Don’t Miss This Conversation with Warren Bird
Mar 03, 2022
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Warren Bird, the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. It’s time for a fresh look to see what God is doing, especially coming out of the pandemic. If you’re wondering how church planting […]
Office Hours: Volunteer Recruiting Best Practices & Reaching New People
Feb 24, 2022
Welcome to this month’s Office Hours episode. This month Rich is taking on your questions about building volunteer teams, and reaching people who might not normally attend your services. Leslie Moffat, administrative pastor, Celebration Church in Brantford, Ontario, Canada: “For churches with multiple services, do you recommend the same volunteers stay on for the entire […]
Stop Copying and Pasting the Announcements for Your Church!
Feb 22, 2022
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I know this sounds like some homespun advice from your mom, but it does apply to looking for resources on the internet to improve the weekend services or announcements at your church. A quick search online will reveal an endless amount of templates and done-for-you resources that […]
In-Person Community & Bold Digital Innovation in a Lonely World with Benjamin Windle
Feb 17, 2022
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with return guest Benjamin Windle from Life Place Church in Australia. Whether or not churches are going to opt in to the digital revolution is no longer an option. Now the question is, how do churches operate and minister in a digital world, particularly to younger […]
9 Tiny Habits That Can Cause Huge Disengagement During Announcements
Feb 15, 2022
When you have a little pebble in your shoe, it’s hard to focus on anything around you besides that minor discomfort, right? We sometimes do the same thing with our tiny habits during our weekend service announcements. What about that little smudge from your kid’s finger on the TV as you watch the latest Hollywood […]
Increasing the Impact of the Serving Experience on Volunteers with Rachel Long
Feb 10, 2022
Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Rachel Long back on the podcast. She’s one of the executive pastors at Emmanuel Church, a multisite church in Indiana. Today Rachel is talking with us about building healthy volunteer teams within our churches. You can learn more about Emmanuel Church at www.eclife.org, […]
Why Church Leaders Can’t Stand Doing Announcements
Feb 08, 2022
Do you dread being asked to get up and host a weekend service at your church? Can just talking about hosting the announcements this coming weekend make your stomach turn? Is your team pushing you to drop the announcements? And maybe even more worrying, do you have a good reason not to drop them? Are […]
Increasing Multi-Faith Proximity While Remaining Gospel-Centered with Kevin Singer
Feb 03, 2022
Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Kevin Singer, co-founder and co-director of the student-led movement, Neighborly Faith, which brings Christians and Muslims together. There is very little in the church to help equip believers regarding how to engage with our neighbors of other faiths in a way that […]
5 Leadership Hedges Against Inflation for Your Church
Feb 01, 2022
Just when you thought the word “unprecedented” couldn’t possibly be used any more, we continue to climb into levels of inflation that haven’t been seen in over four decades. In fact, the last time we saw inflation this high, the world was a completely different place. We find ourselves leading in an environment of increasing […]
Office Hours: Attracting Young Families & Help with Hiring Your Next Team Member
Jan 27, 2022
Thanks for joining us for this month’s Office Hours podcast episode. Today Rich is answering your questions about attracting young families and getting help with hiring your next team member. John Boyle, executive pastor, Calvary Bible Church in Boulder, Colorado: “I wanted to pick your brain on attracting more young families to our church.” Know […]
Mega to Meta? Your First Step in Starting a Metaverse Ministry with Jason Poling
Jan 20, 2022
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jason Poling, lead pastor of Cornerstone Church of Yuba City in California. For the first ten years of Jason’s ministry as a pastor, he felt like he had been living in “maintenance mode.” While his church was experiencing growth, some of which was due to brand […]
Best Practices in Onboarding New Staff with Ken McAnulty
Jan 13, 2022
Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken McAnulty, executive pastor at Arise Church in Florida. The hiring process is tough, and ramping up new staff can be awkward and stressful if it isn’t done with a lot of intentionality. Ken is with us today to talk about how to […]
Rebuilding a Team Culture That Was Broken with Jesse DeYoung
Jan 06, 2022
Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jesse DeYoung, the executive lead pastor at Flatirons Community Church in Boulder, Colorado. Jesse is talking with us today about how Flatirons Church worked through a difficult season of ministry, addressed their broken team culture, and witnessed God’s redemption among the staff. Recognize what’s not […]
Connection & Engagement Lessons from a Fast Growing Church During the Pandemic with Julie Hawkins
Dec 23, 2021
Today we’re chatting with Julie Hawkins, the Next Steps Pastor at Chapel Hill Church in Washington state. So many churches had to quickly develop an online presence at the beginning of 2020 and it made the area of helping people take their next steps more challenging. Listen in as Julie shares how Chapel Hill Church […]
Helping Female Leaders in Your Church Find Their Leadership Voice with Kadi Cole
Dec 16, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole, the founder of Kadi Cole & Company, an organization created to help leaders of all organizations. Kadi is with us today to talk about encouraging female leaders at your church while removing barriers from leadership opportunities. Find the drop off. // Many men in […]
Building a Team Culture at Your Church that You’ll Love with Brian Cook
Dec 09, 2021
Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brian Cook, the lead pastor of ACF Church (Alliance Christian Fellowship) in Eagle River, Alaska. Right now 4.5 million people in the US are quitting their job every month and 50% are looking for a new job. Staff culture is a big […]
Helping Teams Leverage, Not Loathe, Personality Differences with Eddie Hastings
Dec 02, 2021
Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Eddie Hastings, Executive Pastor of Ministries at Chets Creek Church in Florida. Eddie is talking with us about using personality tests to better build and communicate with your staff teams. Know and trust each other. // When a church grows, especially to have multiple campuses, […]
Bonus Deep Dive: Health Care Sharing For Churches? Marq James Helps Us Clear Up Misconceptions
Dec 01, 2021
Are you a senior leader in church thinking about health care options for your team? Did you know that your team is anxious about this aspect of serving at your church? Today on unSeminary we want to help with that worry & stress. We are joined by Marq James, an expert in health care sharing […]
If Jesus Gave a TED Talk? Neuroscience Communication Principles The Master Teacher Used To Persuade His Audience with Charles Stone
Nov 25, 2021
Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Charles Stone, lead pastor at West Park Church in Ontario, Canada. He also is an author and provides training for pastors. 75% of people forget most of what they’ve heard from a talk within an hour. 90% forget what they’ve heard after a week […]
Leading a Fast Growing Church While Having Healthy Rhythms & Boundaries with Zeb Cook
Nov 11, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Zeb Cook, the lead pastor at Apex Baptist Church in Apex, North Carolina. Zeb is talking with us today about establishing healthy rhythms and boundaries in your life so that you can continue to thrive in the ministry where God has called you. Create a system […]
Going International as a Multisite Church with Tommie Bozich
Nov 04, 2021
Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tommie Bozich, the executive pastor of Trinity Church, a multisite church with locations in Virginia and also internationally. Tommie is talking with us about what led them to launch a location in Stuttgart, Germany, and what a church should think about when considering […]
Practical Advice on Fostering a Kingdom Mindset In Your Church with Brian McMillan
Oct 14, 2021
Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Brian McMillan, from CenterPoint Church in Long Island, New York. Brian is talking with us today about how pastors can keep their souls healthy by being generous and Kingdom-minded toward church plants coming into their area. Challenges of church planting. // When planting a church, […]
Moving from Paid to Volunteer Music Teams in a Fast Growing Multisite Church with Stone Meyer
Oct 07, 2021
Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stone Meyer, executive pastor from The Bridge Church in Tennessee. Stone is talking with us today about the musical worship part of services and how to develop excellence in your unpaid volunteer musicians. The musical worship aspect. // The musical worship aspect of services […]
Moving from Maintenance to Movement in this Season with Van Vandegriff
Sep 30, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Van Vandegriff, lead pastor at Cedarcrest Church in Acworth, Georgia. Van is talking with us today about dealing with COVID and helping people at the church to shift out of neutral and reengage with the mission of the church. Reengage with the mission. // […]
Sermon Planning Rhythms that Produce Engaging & Faithful Content with Zach Lambert
Sep 23, 2021
Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Zach Lambert, lead pastor at Restore Austin in Austin, Texas. Zach is with us today to talk about how to take the stress out of sermon planning and coming up with biblical and engaging topics in your teaching. What are you preaching […]
Building Staff Culture While Leading During Trying Times with Rusty George
Sep 16, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George, the lead pastor at Real Life Church in the Los Angeles area. He’s talking with us today about what it’s like stepping into the lead pastor role after the founding pastor. You can learn more about Real Life Church at reallifechurch.org and about Rusty […]
How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor with Carey Nieuwhof
Sep 09, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Carey Nieuwhof, a leadership expert, author, speaker, podcaster, former attorney, and church planter. He’s with us today to share about how to address the crisis of overwhelm in our work and lives. Digital scales in a way that physical doesn’t. // After the pandemic, we […]
Leading Change That Lasts with Hillsong Atlanta’s Lisette Fraser
Aug 12, 2021
Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Lisette Fraser, the COO/executive pastor of Hillsong Atlanta. Leading through change is at the core of serving as an executive pastor and church leader. Today Lisette is talking with us about where to begin when stepping out and leading change in this […]
Inside Team Culture Development at a Fast Growing Church with Chad Asman
Aug 05, 2021
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Chad Asman, executive pastor of Heritage Church just north of Detroit, Michigan. He is with us today to talk about developing team culture at your church to create future leaders. Start with culture. // Heritage Church worked to create a leadership pipeline not only […]
How to Get Traction on Execution at Your Church with Allie Bryant
Jul 29, 2021
Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Allie Bryant from Trader’s Point Christian Church. Although they have six campuses in Indianapolis, currently four are opened along with church online due to covid. Allie is the Strategic Alignment Executive for Traders Point and she loves getting the right people in the room to […]
Balancing the Healthy Tensions of the Executive Pastor Role with Tyler Althof
Jul 22, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Tyler Althof, the associate pastor from Action Church in Florida. Tyler is with us today to talk about tensions to manage when you are leading from the second chair at a church. We need a sense of security. // As church leaders we need to […]
Tackling the Early Days as a New Executive Pastor with Matt Gilchrist
Jul 15, 2021
Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Matt Gilchrist, executive pastor at Hope City Church in Missouri. Matt is talking with us about getting up to speed as a new XP at a church and how to connect with your lead pastor, your staff, and spouse during this season […]
Improving Your Church’s Financial Competencies with Ken Fisher
Jul 08, 2021
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken Fisher, Executive Pastor at Church at the Mill in South Carolina. As one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Church at the Mill has doubled in size in the last five years. As a church grows, the staff needs to consider how they […]
Leveraging Research to Drive Design & Communication Insights at Crossroads Church with Vivienne Bechtold
Jul 01, 2021
Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to be talking with Vivienne Bechtold, the Director of Studio and Leadership Development at Crossroads Church in Ohio. Crossroads has been one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years, but this growth hasn’t happened without being intentional about reaching those […]
Moving from Pre-Recorded Church Online to Live with JD Mason
Jun 24, 2021
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with JD Mason, the online campus leader from Liberty Live Church in Virginia. JD is chatting with us today about how church online has evolved for Liberty Live Church since the pandemic and why they made the decision to transition to live, rather than prerecorded, broadcasts. Trial […]
Bonus Deep Dive: Current Best Practices in Operational Reserves for Your Church with Steve Carr
Jun 23, 2021
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re doing a bonus deep dive about operational reserves and how much our churches should be saving. We have expert Steve Carr from CDF Capital with us to help us think through these questions. Maintain generosity. // During the pandemic, churches trended toward either maintaining their […]
National Church Leader Survey on Attitudes Towards In-Person, Remote, or Hybrid Work Arrangements
Jun 22, 2021
Is your team moving back to an “in-person” office experience? Do you know how your team members feel about working at home once life looks a little more normal? What does the future of church leadership work arrangements look like? We must understand the impact that COVID-19 has had on our church leadership environment and […]
Rebuilding Connection At Your Church Post-COVID with Abby Ecker
Jun 17, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Abby Ecker, Next Steps Pastor from The Journey in Delaware. She’s with us today to talk about getting people connected and helping them take steps from just attending weekend gatherings to moving into the core of the church. Help people take steps, not leaps. […]
Expanding the Leadership Voices at Your Table with Jeannette Cochran
Jun 10, 2021
Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re chatting with Jeannette Cochran, executive pastor Seneca Creek Community Church in Maryland. Jeannette is talking with us today about what it is like being a female executive pastor in a church and how you can empower more women to engage their gifts and lead […]
5 Mindsets Church Leaders Need to Change Post-COVID
Jun 09, 2021
As the leader goes, so goes the organization. It’s often been said that the mindset of a leader ultimately drives the behavior of an organization. It’s a scary thought when you consider that our internal thought life can express itself in the people that we consistently lead. I think this is a truism when it […]
Season of Hope: Your Church’s Fall 2021 Growth Opportunity
Jun 08, 2021
The coming months hold an unprecedented opportunity to see your church impact more people than ever before. As the country begins to shake off the shackles of COVID-19 and the ensuing economic calamity, we’re seeing new windows of opportunity. We must leverage this season for the message of Jesus. We can echo what Paul said […]
Focusing on Jesus in a Distracted World with Steve Brown
Jun 03, 2021
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dr. Steve Brown, President of Arrow Leadership and author of the book Jesus Centered: Focusing On Jesus In A Distracted World. Steve works to help leaders find clarity, community and confidence in their work as Jesus-centered leaders. He’s talking with us today about how to lead […]
Improving Your Working Partnership with an Executive Assistant with Jannet Morgan
May 27, 2021
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Jannet Morgan, the Executive Assistant (EA) to Lead Pastor, Tim Lucas, at Liquid Church in New Jersey. She’s with us today to talk about the role of the EA supporting leadership in the church and how to make the most out of that partnership. Be […]
Applying Pandemic Learnings from Church Online to Post-Pandemic Church with Jenn Clauser
May 20, 2021
Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenn Clauser, the Director of Communications at Coker United Methodist Church in San Antonio, Texas. She’s with us today to dig deeper into online church and how to integrate it as a core part of our mission to reaching people who are far […]
Is Your Team Languishing? Practical Help for Executive Pastors.
May 18, 2021
It’s clear that we’re entering a post-pandemic stress period in the life of the local church. All around us we see signs that our teams are stressed and not sure what to do next. Anecdotally, we’re hearing about huge turnover at churches, and we cannot ignore the rising anxiety in leaders across the country. Recently, […]
Pete Briscoe’s Lessons from Coming Alongside Senior Leaders to Help with Communication & Self Care
May 13, 2021
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Pete Briscoe, who served as the senior pastor for nearly three decades at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, and now consults with and coaches pastors. He is with us today to talk about growing communication skills to improve preaching as well as how […]
Pitfalls and Possibilities of VR Church with Jonathan Armstrong
May 06, 2021
Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Jonathan Armstrong today, an educator who has also helped run the virtual reality (VR) lab at Moody Bible Institute. Our perspective on what technology is and how it’s affecting our world keeps changing. In fact as younger generations have grown up with […]
Practical Strategy for Developing High-Capacity Volunteers with Danny Franks
Apr 29, 2021
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast! This week I’m chatting with a repeat guest, Danny Franks, Pastor of Guest Services at The Summit Church. The Summit Church has twelve locations around North Carolina and the heart of the church is set on sending. They continually want their people to be asking: how does God want […]
Practical Help for Church Leaders in Emotional and Spiritual Growth with Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
Apr 22, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Bill and Kristi Gaultiere from the organization Soul Shepherding. Bill and Kristi felt called to study psychology for the purpose of ministry, and serve as spiritual directors and pastors to pastors. Soul Shepherding offers resources and training for pastors and leaders and […]
How to Beat the Spring Lull & Gain Momentum at Your Church
Apr 21, 2021
The season between Easter and summer is a strange one in the life of a church. Many churches gain momentum coming up to Easter and then find the weeks that follow before summer arrives, drag on. In any other year, this lull in momentum can feel difficult to climb out of; however, this spring is […]
Turning Obstacles into Opportunities: Church Real Estate Lessons with Andy Wood
Apr 15, 2021
Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Andy Wood, founding and lead pastor of Echo Church in California. Many times in ministry, the thing that should be an obstacle actually can become an opportunity if we think about it differently. Echo Church held strongly to this idea when it […]
Loving the Church You Serve with Carl Kuhl
Apr 08, 2021
Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with church planter and lead pastor Carl Kuhl from Mosaic Christian Church in Maryland. Mosaic was planted in the fall of 2008, launching first in a movie theater, and has become one of the fastest growing churches in the country. When planting a […]
3 Key Lessons For Your Church From a Study of 20,000 Online Events
Apr 06, 2021
Recently, a report entitled The State of Virtual Events 2021 was released, which looked at the experiences of 100 leading brands that ran over 20,000 online events in the last year. This study explores these brands’ thinking around online events as they have made the “great pivot” to utilize this option more and more. Like […]
Helping Leaders Slow Down with Christa Hesselink
Apr 01, 2021
Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Christa Hesselink, founder of the organization SoulPlay. SoulPlay offers creative experiences, curated resources, and personal support to help individuals and groups dig deeper, listen well, and journey towards loving themselves, others, God, and our world, well. The last twelve months have been incredibly […]
How to Help People Who are Burned, Bruised, or Wounded in Your Church with Steve Grusendorf
Mar 25, 2021
Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Steve Grusendorf who is a part of the denominal leadership at the Christian and Missionary Alliance. He started as a local pastor at a CMA church, always serving in leadership development, and a few years ago became involved in this aspect at […]
Pandemic to Endemic: Five Questions Your Church May Still Need to Answer About COVID-19
Mar 23, 2021
The cultural and economic impact of COVID-19 is one of the greatest influences on the local church in at least a generation. Over the last year, we’ve seen COVID-19 impact our ministries in innumerable ways. In some respects, COVID-19 has accelerated positive change in the local church. The shift to equipping the majority of churches […]
Working at Health while Facilitating for Growth with Renaut van der Riet
Mar 18, 2021
Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Renaut van der Riet from Mosaic Church in the Orlando, Florida area. Passionate about making the gospel beautiful however they can, Mosaic is continually pursuing how they can serve each other and how they can serve their community. This heart has led to […]
Practical Help for Church Leaders Dealing with Home Life Pressures with Michelle Leichty
Mar 11, 2021
Thanks for joining in to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Michelle Leichty, the Communication Director at Covenant Church in Indiana. For many church leaders, managing their homes and serving in ministry has been especially challenging to balance during the pandemic. Shifting back and forth between work burdens […]
Speaking Truth to the Hearts of Executive Pastors with Kevin Davis
Mar 04, 2021
Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Kevin Davis from 2|42 Community Church in Michigan. Kevin is one of the executive pastors and focuses on small groups, culture, and leadership development. What makes a good ministry leader? How can you learn to lead yourself well? How do you work through conflict […]
Moving a Fast Growing Multisite Church from Centralized to Decentralized Leadership Structure with Rachel Long
Feb 25, 2021
Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Rachel Long, Executive Pastor of Families and Multisites at Emmanuel Church in the greater Indianapolis area. Making the decision to go multisite and growing to multiple campuses will inevitably lead to a discussion about who answers to who on staff. The dotted […]
The Reason Your Church Marketing Isn’t Working
Feb 23, 2021
Are you wondering why those Facebook ads that you’ve been running for the last few months don’t seem to be translating into people connecting, neither in person nor online? Have you tried multiple flyer drops in your neighborhood and you’re desperately hoping that maybe one person would show up, but it just hasn’t happened? Are […]
Something is Broken: A Conversation About What Christian Leaders Should Stop Saying about Sexual Abusers with Tanya Marlow
Feb 19, 2021
This is a special edition of the unSeminary podcast. Many church leaders don’t know what to say when it comes to the revelations around disgraced Christian leader, Ravi Zacharias. Earlier this week I bumped into Tayna Marlow’s article on this topic entitled “But his books are still good, right? – 5 things Christians must stop […]
Everyday Ways to Help Your People Change the World with Dave & Jon Ferguson
Feb 18, 2021
Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to have Dave and Jon Ferguson with us from Community Christian Church. Community has nine locations in Illinois as well as online services and works in three correctional facilities. Almost all Christians want to share the love of Jesus with their friends and neighbors. […]
Former Divorce Lawyer Offers Perspectives on Marriage with Toni Nieuwhof
Feb 11, 2021
Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Toni Nieuwhof. Toni’s extensive experience as a family lawyer, pharmacist, and church leader has given her unique and practical insights on how people grow emotionally, personally and spiritually. Although we don’t know the impacts of the pandemic on marriages and the […]
Increase Your Church’s Volunteer Teams with This Proven Multisite Expansion Tactic
Feb 09, 2021
Does your church have fewer volunteers today than it did a year ago? Are you wondering how you’re going to rebuild your church’s teams after everything that’s happened with COVID-19 and the way our culture has changed as a result of the pandemic? Have you wondered where you go next when it comes to gaining […]
Increasing Prayer, Transparency and Accountability on Your Church Team with Darrell Roland
Feb 04, 2021
Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Darrell Roland, from Rock Bridge Community Church. They have six locations in Georgia and Tennessee as well as a Spanish service. One of the roles of the executive pastor is the management and leadership of the staff, and so today we’re talking about […]
MrBeast Burger: What Is It? What It Can Teach Your Church!
Feb 02, 2021
If you’re not familiar with YouTube culture, you might not have heard of MrBeast. Jimmy Donaldson (aka MrBeast) is the top content creator on the platform for 2020, and he’s super engaging. Over the years, he’s produced some amazingly creative content that has earned him over 51 million subscribers and all kinds of awards. He […]
Becoming A Multicultural Church with Dave Swaim
Jan 28, 2021
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dave Swaim, pastor at Highrock Covenant Church and president of the Highrock Network in the Boston area. The Highrock Network is a family of churches with a shared vision for locally focused congregations. Highrock Covenant Church began when a group of “spiritually homeless” individuals started […]
Carey Nieuwhof Interviews Rich Birch as unSeminary Celebrates 1.5 Million Downloads!
Jan 25, 2021
This week we’re celebrating YOU, dear listeners! We always want to do everything we can to set you up for success – we’re always cheering for you! We’ve reached out to some friends who love serving church leaders like you and have put together some fun giveaways in honor of hitting 1.5 million downloads on […]
Church Based Justice Ministry That Doesn’t Drift from a Firm Faith-Based Foundation with Aaron Graham
Jan 21, 2021
Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Graham, the lead pastor of The District Church in Washington, DC. The District Church was started in 2010 with the desire to be a church for the city, impacting it for Christ one neighborhood at a time. In an area where […]
5 Forgotten Ingredients in Your Church’s Giving Moments
Jan 19, 2021
The two minutes before you ask people to give to your church during your services are vitally important financially, both for the future of your church and for your people. Giving moments are an important part of your church’s system for increasing generosity and pushing the mission of your church forward. If your church is […]
Lead with What Your Church CAN DO with Chris Bell
Jan 14, 2021
Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Chris Bell, from 3Circle Church in the Mobile, Alabama area. When the pandemic started, all we heard about was new restrictions and what we couldn’t do. Chris was immediately challenged to focus on what the church CAN do each day. Listen in as Chris shares […]
5 Mistakes Churches Make Onboarding New Staff
Jan 12, 2021
Hiring is the single most expensive decision that most church leaders will make over the course of their ministry. In many churches, staffing accounts for anywhere between 30 percent and 50 percent of the annual budget. You want to make sure that, as you hire new team members, you invest what you can at the […]
Helping Your People Add Keystone Habits that Grow Their Spiritual Lives in 2021 with Zach Zehnder
Jan 08, 2021
Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Zach Zehnder with us today, the author and founder of the Red Letter Challenge. RLC began with the simple concept of trying to help people be greater followers of Jesus. It started as a book, leading the reader on a 40-day life-changing discipleship experience […]
Recall: Your Church’s 2021 Strategic Communication Focus
Jan 05, 2021
You have no doubt heard all the doomsayers saying that what we’ve experienced in the last year is beckoning a new age of disengagement in your church. You’ve probably heard people say that somewhere around a third of our people have left the church and won’t be returning. It seems like for decades, we’ve been […]
Inspiring Reflections on 2020 from Chicago with Mark Jobe
Dec 24, 2020
Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking to Mark Jobe, senior pastor at New Life Community Church (NLCC) in Chicago area and president of Moody Bible institute. New Life Community Church meets primarily in the city and has 28 locations with 40+ worship services. It’s a very multi-ethnic church with […]
Lessons From Casting Vision & Pushing Forward During the Pandemic with Drew Sherman
Dec 17, 2020
Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Drew Sherman, lead pastor of Compass Christian Church in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Compass has four physical locations as well as an online campus and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. The most fruitful seasons of our lives […]
Adding More Structure While Staying Relational in a Growing Church with Mark Geissbauer
Dec 10, 2020
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have with us Executive Pastor Mark Geissbauer from The Chapel which has three locations near Lake Erie. As a church grows, adding more structure is necessary to keep everyone in the loop and enable systems to operate smoothly. But how do you maintain a personal touch while adding […]
How Your Congregation Can Adapt and Thrive after a Crisis with Karl Vaters
Dec 03, 2020
Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Karl Vaters, a teaching pastor at Cornerstone Christian Fellowship as well as an author and speaker. Karl focuses on serving small churches, encouraging their growth and helping them to be healthy. 2020 has been a tough year between the pandemic, economic stress, social […]
Connection Between Community Service & Church Growth with Kyle & Justeina Brownlee
Nov 26, 2020
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Kyle and Justeina Brownlee from Xperience Church in Ohio. At Xperience Church, going beyond their walls to serve their community isn’t just something they do, it’s who they are. Listen in as Kyle and Justeina share about how to build a culture of […]
Using Tech to Increase Bible Engagement at Your Church with Scott Lindsey
Nov 19, 2020
Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re honored to have with us today Scott Lindsey, the executive director at Faithlife. Faithlife is the company which created the Logos Bible Software for digital Bible study. Scott is with us today to talk about Faithlife, how they can help you, and how you can […]
Millennials, Gen Z and Your Church with Benjamin Windle
Nov 12, 2020
Thanks so much for joining us for another unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Benjamin Windle. A native Australian, Benjamin has worked as a youth and young adult pastor in the US and currently helps churches develop Generational Intelligence in reaching Millennials and Gen Z through an assortment of resources, coaching, and speaking. According to […]
3 Myths about FutureFWD. Plus Dr. Henry Cloud
Nov 07, 2020
Are you and your team registered for FutureFWD? You should be. Join us. Imagine you could get inside the minds of leaders who are thinking through where the local church is going next. What would it be like to understand how leading churches are thinking about what the future holds? Listen in to today’s special […]
Lessons In Getting People Back to In-Person Services with Kyle Mercer
Nov 05, 2020
Welcome to the unSeminary podcast! Today we have lead pastor Kyle Mercer with us from Two Cities Church in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Two Cities was originally planted out of The Summit Church with J.D. Greear in 2016 and grew to about 1300 people before covid, becoming one of the fastest growing churches in the country. […]
A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam
Oct 29, 2020
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have David Putnam with us today. David spent many years as a church planter and executive pastor and today consults with churches as a lead navigator with Auxano. David has also founded the organization Planting the Gospel which helps transition churches from a weekend-only disciple-making culture. […]
3 Ways FutureFWD Was Designed with Your Team in Mind. Plus Jenni Catron on Culture.
Oct 28, 2020
Designed to help encourage collaboration. FutureFWD will have “future positive” tone that embraces the world we find ourselves in and gives helpful next steps to leaders like you. You and your team will leave energized and focused to lead into 2021 and beyond. FutureFWD is designed to encourage and equip your team to push forward […]
Thriving in the Midst of Life’s Storms with Ben Young
Oct 22, 2020
Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we have Dr. Ben Young with us, who is a writer and pastor at Second Baptist Church, a diverse, multi-ethnic church with over 20,000 people attending weekly services online and on six campuses throughout the city of Houston. Technology and the fact that we’ve become […]
How Will Your Team Benefit from FutureFWD? Plus: What’s Next? Justice. by Efrem Smith
Oct 21, 2020
You and your team will leave energized and focused to lead into 2021 and beyond. FutureFWD is designed to encourage and equip your team to push forward with the plan God has in store for your church. Leading voices investing in your team. You’ll get to hear from marquee leaders across the church on how […]
Why should you register for FutureFWD? PLUS Larry Osborne on Both/And Leadership.
Oct 14, 2020
Imagine you could get inside the minds of leaders who are thinking through where the local church is going next. What would it be like to understand how leading churches are thinking about what the future holds? In today’s episode, Kenny Jahng and I sit down and talk about FutureFWD. This is a 2-day online […]
From Plateaued for 30 Years to One of the Fastest Growing Churches in the Country with Bob Riedy
Oct 08, 2020
Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Bob Riedy from the Church of the Open Door (COD) in York, Pennsylvania. COD was started in the early 50s after breaking off of a mainline denomination. They experienced rapid growth for about 30 years, but then plateaued for the next 30 years. Today COD […]
Challenge Your People to Grow In Their Faith with Gregg Farah
Oct 01, 2020
Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Gregg Farah joining us from Shelter Rock Church in Long Island, New York. Why is the Church at large struggling so much to help people grow in their relationship with Christ? Many sincere followers of Jesus feel stuck or stalled in their faith. […]
Lessons from COVID-19 & the Reopening Phase in Australia for Your Church with John Finkelde
Sep 24, 2020
Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m glad you’ve decided to tune in as we talk with John Finkelde. John has thirty plus years of pastoral experience in Australia and currently runs the organization Grow a Healthy Church. He consults with and coaches churches and church leaders all over the world, helping […]
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This is part 3 of a special 3-part series designed to help your church plan ahead for Christmas—starting in the summer.
The 2x Benchmark: Rich shares a healthy target for churches during Christmas—double your average attendance—and explains why this isn’t just about numbers, but about reaching people who are spiritually open during this season.
