unSeminary Podcast

**Helping Your Church Engage with God’s Word Daily: Lessons from YouVersion with Lucinda Ross** Oct 30, 2025

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by **Lucinda Ross**, Central Group Leader of Communications at **Life.Church**, one of the most influential and innovative churches in the world. Since its founding in 1996, Life.Church has grown to more than 40 locations across the U.S. and a massive global online presence. Through initiatives like the **Open Network** and the **YouVersion Bible App**, Life.Church continues to equip millions of people and churches to engage with God’s Word every day.

As Global Bible Month begins, Lucinda shares powerful insights on how churches can inspire daily Bible engagement, leverage digital tools like YouVersion to disciple people beyond Sunday, and help believers experience lasting transformation through God’s Word.

**Reaching everyone, everywhere, every day. //** The heart behind YouVersion’s mission is summed up in three simple words—everyone, everywhere, every day. As the Bible App approaches one billion downloads, Lucinda emphasizes that the real win isn’t the number of installs—it’s the number of lives being transformed through consistent engagement with Scripture. The app is now opened more than one billion times every 39 days, and the past few weeks have seen some of the highest engagement rates ever recorded. Similarly, print Bible sales have increased, revealing a growing hunger for God’s word.

**The power of daily engagement. //** Research from the Center for Bible Engagement demonstrates that people who interact with Scripture four or more days a week experience significant life change. This “power of four” effect leads to greater faith-sharing, reduced anxiety and loneliness, and freedom from destructive habits.

**Equipping churches to disciple digitally. //** YouVersion Bible App was designed not only as a personal tool but as a resource for churches. Through *YouVersion Connect*, local churches can create a free digital home within the Bible App where members can find their church, access reading plans, and receive updates directly from their pastors. Churches can feature Bible plans connected to sermon series, post follow-up devotionals, and share key verses throughout the week. The app also provides anonymous engagement insights for church leaders—a “spiritual health dashboard” that helps pastors see what topics their people are exploring, how frequently they read Scripture, and how they can be better shepherded.

**Celebrating Global Bible Month. //** November marks Global Bible Month, an opportunity for churches worldwide to celebrate the power of God’s Word. This year, YouVersion and several partner ministries are uniting to encourage believers to take the 30-Day Bible Challenge—a commitment to read the Bible every day for 30 days. Churches can sign up and access free resources at globalbiblemonth.com, including sermon outlines, social graphics, and curated 30-day reading plans. The goal is simple: to help people experience the difference that consistent engagement with Scripture can make.

**Technology as a tool for transformation. //** Some critics argue that Bible engagement should happen only through printed Bibles, but Lucinda sees technology as an ally, not a replacement. YouVersion’s accessibility—through text, audio, or reading plans—makes it possible for people to engage with Scripture anywhere, at any time, in their preferred version or language. God’s Word is alive and active, and technology simply helps more people experience it.

**Expanding global reach. //** As YouVersion grows, the team is investing in new ways to make the Bible accessible to everyone in their heart language. In addition to the main app, the Bible App Lite serves users in areas with low connectivity, while the Bible App for Kids helps children engage through story-based learning. YouVersion now offers over 3,600 Bible versions in 2,300 languages, with teams at global hubs in Africa, Latin America, Europe, and Australia ensuring content is contextualized for local cultures.

To learn more about how your church can get started with *YouVersion Connect*, visit youversion.com/connect or explore free resources for Global Bible Month at globalbiblemonth.com

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super honored that you are listening in today and you’re going to be rewarded for this. You might not know it, but here in November is Global Bible Month. And I’m super honored to have—you know, you feel like you’re talking to a rock star, like somebody who’s at the center of something that’s pretty amazing that’s going on. Today’s one of those days, Lucinda Ross. She is a central group leader of communications at Life.Church.
Rich Birch — If you have been sleeping under a rock and do not know Life.Church, they started 1996. And it’s grown to this incredibly diverse group of people meeting with cities all across the United States and around the world. They have, if I’m counting correctly, if I can count all the slots, 40 physical locations in several states in the U.S. and an incredibly robust online community. Life.Church has several resources and tools for growth, ah for really helping churches grow, including their Open Network for churches and the Bible app from YouVersion, which really seeks to put God’s word in the hands of everyone, every day, everywhere. And um man, they have just done amazing stuff. And Lucinda, I’m super glad, honored really, to have you on the show today. Thanks for being here.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Thanks so much, Rich. That was just a kind kind introduction. Just humbled and honored to play small part what God’s doing here.
Rich Birch — Well, I appreciate you being humble, ah but like YouVersion has just had such a monster impact on so many people’s lives. And I’m really happy to celebrate it this month and to kind of dive deep a little bit, tell a little bit more about that.
Rich Birch — But why don’t we kind of start before we jump in? um Tell us a little bit about your background. How did you get connected to this, this whole thing? And then I’d love to chat through what we’re talking about today.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah. So I have had the honor of being on the Life.Church team for almost 13 years. So started out attending, never thought I would be in ministry. God had me in um corporate world and thought that that’s where my place was. And he had other plans for me. And so he’s used Life.Church to change my life, to draw me closer to him. And I’m just super honored that I get to play a part in it now. And so, and part of what I do as and the leader of communications at our church is I just get to tell stories. I get to do the fun part of just sharing what God is doing in our ministries like YouVersion.
Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Well, Life.Church, man, has had just incredible impact and reach in both physical and digital realms. And God’s used it in so many ways. From your seat, from your perspective, what’s kind of driving that transformation? What is it that God’s using ah in the kind of Life.Church community to make such huge impact?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah, there’s no denying that God’s hand is all over this every step of the way. And so one of the things that are one of our leaders, Bobby Grunewald says is it’s it’s all him and it’s all his. And so when you approach things with that kind of posture, it’s um it gives you just the obedience to take risks. Because you know that we can have the faith to believe that something incredible is possible on the other side.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so seeing our leaders model that, um getting to play a part in that, where we are just going for it consistently thinking about, okay, what’s next? What does God have next? How, um if our vision truly is to reach people, everyone, everywhere, every day, it’s a vision of YouVersion, but also the mission of Life.Church is to lead people to become fully devoted followers of Christ.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — If those are the things that we’re focused on, those are big. That three everys in the vision of YouVersion means we’ve always got work to do. That work will outlive us. And so um thinking about just taking risk, being obedient, and seeing where God has, where that momentum is, and just pouring fuel on that fire.
Rich Birch — It’s so good. Well, you know, every pastor that’s listening in, ah you know, they want to see people be changed. They want to see people be transformed. They want, they they don’t, there’s this misnomer that, you know, pastors just want large crowds and they don’t really care whether transformation happens. That’s just not true.

Lucinda Rojas Ross — Absolutely not.
Rich Birch — Those aren’t the people I interact with. They want to see people you know, their lives turned upside down in the best possible way. What are you learning about what actually drives change in people’s lives? What are you seeing from your perspective that that actually sees that kind of transformation take place?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah. Yeah. We can all agree. Just like you said, like pastors care about people’s lives being changed. So we can all agree that there’s critical pieces to someone’s spiritual journey. So not not everyone’s on the same journey at the same time at the same pace, but those steps of faith are super critical. Finding biblical community, serving, giving. But one of the things that we’re focused on specifically at YouVersion is how do we get people engaged in God’s word every single day?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so spending time in God’s word, we know is a critical part of their spiritual journey of their life, the transformation that God does in their lives. And so that’s the the part, the piece we get to play in in what he’s doing in those spiritual journeys.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so I think just you know thinking about pastors who wanna see that happen, it’s what it’s what happens outside the walls of the church. And so, and we know that that’s the case. We know we only have that limited time with them every single weekend. um And, may you know, maybe in some other spaces, but but what is God doing outside the walls the church?
Rich Birch — Yeah. I want to—listen, pull back the fourth wall for a little bit. Just want to honor you and the team at YouVersion. Like guys have done just an incredible job. Like what a resource to give to the church. It’s had just huge impact, worth celebrating. I think I saw your crossing or have crossed a billion downloads. Like that’s just an incredible.
Rich Birch — Even just in my little small group, couple years ago, I had one of those transformative experiences with a guy. He’s the kind of guy you want to reach, mid-30s guy, unchurched guy. And he’s taken steps towards Jesus. And like, it’s like stupidly simple what I’m about to share. But he was like, you know, I’m really struggling with reading the Bible on a regular basis. And so I literally took up my phone, fired up the app.

Lucinda Rojas Ross — Love it.
Rich Birch — And I said, look here, you know, why don’t we do like a three day plan? Let’s try a three day plan this week.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Great.
Rich Birch — And then how that goes, then if we do that, why don’t we then together do a five-day plan. and then a seven-day plan.

Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yes.

Rich Birch — And then, and literally just built up the streaks. And, and I remember a couple months later after that, he was sharing, he’s like, you know, that really changed my life. Like, he’s like, I never thought I’d be the kind of person that read the Bible every day.
Rich Birch — And this is what, you know, I know you’ve done that on scale for literally millions of people. But many churches know about the Bible app. They know about YouVersion, but they maybe haven’t connected it to the weekly rhythms of the people at their church.
Rich Birch — Like they they might say like, hey, go download the app, but they haven’t figured out how to really integrate it. I’d love to focus on that today. How can we integrate? What are you seeing kind of the best practices for integrating this app into their ministries?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah, that’s great. Oh, I love that story. Like, that’s it. That’s literally what we want to see.
Rich Birch — Part of it. That’s we’re hoping. Yeah.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah, that’s just, you know, that those little the steps to just download the app, open it, and just start taking those like steps through along the way. I think if you just back up and think about, um you hit on this really quickly, but we are approaching a billion downloads. We’re getting really close. We’re actually going to celebrate that next month, which is really, really exciting.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — But what we’re even more excited about than the number of devices that have ah God’s word is really the number of people who are regularly engaging in it. That’s actually growing really, really quickly right now. So the last five Sundays are ranked as some of the top 10 highest days ever for Bible engagement in the app. Like that’s where we are right now.
Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah. So when you think back, I mean, where’re it’s ranking up there with like Easter and the beginning of the year when people are starting those, trying to start those habits. But we’re seeing that, that kind of momentum where the Bible app is opened a billion times every 39 days.

Rich Birch — Wow!
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so, yeah it’s it is it’s just so encouraging and it’s just so exciting to see people hungry for God’s word. And so I think just backing up, yes, we want to get people in it, but just I think getting getting ourselves in a place to think about the why. Like why do we really want people in God’s word?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — We know that it changes their lives and we’ve all hopefully experienced the impact that it has. But when you back up and think about what will it do in their lives? How can you cast vision for what will happen on the other side of regular engagement in God’s word?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So one of the things we talk about a lot here is the power four. So if you, a lot you may be familiar with it, but if you’re not, the Center for Bible Engagement did a study that found that engaging in the Bible four or more days a week has a profound impact on someone’s life.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So in fact, hearing from God through his word is a single most powerful predictor of their spiritual growth. They’re more likely to share their faith. It decreases their struggles, like their felt needs, like fear, anxiety, loneliness, and actually reduce some of their like risky behaviors, like the things that they’re doing in their life that they want to stop doing.
Rich Birch — Right.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so if you think about that why of like, oh, it’s yes, we want people to grow in their spiritual journey, but we actually just want their lives to feel different. We want them to operate in the power of the Holy Spirit every day and reading in his word and connecting with God in that way is such an important part of doing that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s that’s so good. I know that um like church engagement, kind of engagement as a church has been at the core of the YouVersion story right from the very beginning. I remember, well, whenever YouVersion started, years ago, I remember Andy at North Point talking about, you know, I was talking to Craig Groeschel and they’re doing this thing with the Bible and like with this app and like, we’re going to try it over here too. And like right from the beginning, this idea of like churches encouraging their people to has been kind of built in right from the beginning. You mentioned that, you know, we, we see that kind of engagement, but how, how do we actually use it? Walk us through, how can we better leverage this to really shepherd our people?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yep, absolutely. So I think just as as a local church, getting to steward this kingdom resource, like our heart is like, how can we help equip and empower pastors and church leaders to do that? So one of the ways we do that is through YouVersion Connect.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So there’s features in the app in the Bible app. So you might be using on a personal level, but if you haven’t kind of dug a little bit deeper, your church can actually have a dedicated space in the app where they can where people can find community, they can see who else is attending their church. And so they can find churches near them. So if you go to the discover tab or at the very bottom, you can search churches and it shows churches my friends go to, people that I’ve friended in the app, but also churches near me.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So that getting people connected into a church, that’s super important, of course. Also pastors and church leaders can feature reading plans within their page on the Bible app. So if you’re doing a specific series on anxiety, for example, you can find a great Bible plan that you feel confident about, you want to put in front of your people, people to engage in that way. Put it on your page, and then you can promote it as you’re talking every single weekend.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — The other piece of that is there’s posts. So you can actually send passages, devotionals, sermon follow-ups it to the entire community – all the people that are following the church page. So when they open it, their your pastor’s guidance is right there with them.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — I think beyond that, there’s you know live events where you can put sermon notes. People can follow along. They can highlight. They can add notes and thoughts. So that digital way of of being able to keep keep track of what what my pastor is talking about. I can go back to it. What was he you know What did what it he or she mention and in that specific verse? Go back. What did I think about that? And reflect on it.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — I think one of the most powerful things in all of this, so when we, you know, get our church engaged in this way, you know, being able to see they’re connected, they’re following, I know, you know, what they’re, what they’re, what I’m leading them to do, but also you can get insights so that you can see what kind of engagement—on an aggregated anonymous level—but you can see what are the kinds of things that that my church is thinking about? What are they like looking for? What are they struggling with? What kinds of Bible plans?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so when you do that, it’s you’re able to have just ah another little connection. Of course, those conversations and those relationships are a huge part of that, but just another like input. Just a little spiritual health dashboard for you to be able to have an input into how can you best serve your church and what they’re walking through right now.
Rich Birch — I love that. I love the use of the data. What are that’s like you know being able to kind of see, like you said, an anonymized, but still the people that are following our church, that’s powerful data for a a pastor. You know, we often come up to this, even this time a year, lots of churches are thinking about what are we going preach on next year? What’s our calendar going to look at? Well let’s actually try to pull out some data from you know the YouVersion app to understand what our people are wrestling with.
Rich Birch — How are some pastors or teams use that data to better shepherd their people? What’s that actually look like, if you give examples of what that’s what that looks like at a church level?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah, think one is helping people connect to each other. And so being able to do Bible plans together. So I think that’s a good, like there’s an example there. But I also think you know finding that data just to think about what what might um what might my sermons look like? What might my series look like?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — What, or you know, if people are really interested in finding community, like that’s something that it looks like they’re, they’re really interested in. Okay, so how do I help them get more connected, rather than it be something that they, they see, and they go seek out, how do I put it in front of them.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So I think those are the kinds of things of like, just picking up on those threads. And so there’s lots of there’s lots of, of of inputs that we can take. But I think it’s just really, okay, how can I combine what I’m seeing, the data in front of me, what what people are actually doing. Or you know even just their their frequency of engagement in the app? Like how can I know, okay, that’s they they’re doing well, or I can challenge them to more. And so I think in being able to see that, take those, you know that prayer, Holy Spirit guidance on, okay, now now where? How do I lead my congregation? How do I shepherd my flock moving forward?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And this is softball question here. So I’m a church. I want to set up my my church page. How much is that going to cost me? I know there’s like, that’s going to cost a lot of money. This kind of technology you’re talking about, reading plans, connecting our people, getting that all costs sounds like money. What’s it costing me?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Absolutely nothing. It always is free, will be free. And I think that’s the the piece of of the generosity of people all over the world to really see the vision of getting God’s word everywhere to be able to enable us to be able to do this for free. And so to be able to give it away, like that is that is the heart of of of who we are as a church, as a ministry, but it’s not without the generosity of of of believers all over the world.
Rich Birch — Yeah, if you’ve ever done, friends, if you’re listening and ever done any app development work for phones or even just like web apps, it’s complex to do and to maintain and keep running. And at the scale that this app runs at is insane to be able to keep this thing you know up and running and so smooth. The fact that you can open the app every time and it works, like it’s insane at the scale that you guys are operating at.

Rich Birch — Well, Global Bible Month is here in November. How can churches leverage that moment to to kind of build better healthy spiritual rhythms in their people? How could we, this kind of an interesting month, I’ve never, I don’t know, um maybe I’ve been so under the rock somewhere. where I’ve never heard of Global Bible Month except for, I don’t know, I’ve been following you guys and you’re talking about it, which is great. So how how could we leverage this as an opportunity? What are some things we could do to try to encourage this, encourage Bible reading in our people this month?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s so as we saw, as we I mentioned earlier, just as we’re coming up on a billion installs, we looked at not just how do we celebrate ourselves? Like that’s not who we are what we’re about. We’re actually terrible at celebrating ourselves. That’s that’s so a point of weakness. But we recognized that this is a moment for the Bible. This is and one of billions of reasons that God’s word is is alive and active. And just like I said, the momentum that is building around it.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so as we looked ahead and thought about, okay, we’re going to reach this milestone. How do we just point everyone to the Bible? We’ve actually gotten to partner with lots of other ministries, organizations, other apps, Glorify, Hallow, who we’re all on board for Global Bible Month. Like we are celebrating the Bible. And one of the big ways that we’re doing that is through the 30-day Bible challenge. So 30-day challenge.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So what we’re encouraging people to do, and I would love for pastors to really you know encourage and challenge our churches in this way is is maybe that you’re someone who is just inconsistent. You’re in and out. You kind of really try, but it’s just not really stuck. That habit hasn’t quite clicked. Or um even all the way to the end of like, you know, I’ve tried so many other things. I don’t even know really what what I believe. I’m you know I’m doing meditation, mindfulness, all the things. Why don’t I give the Bible a chance?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So that huge spectrum of people, so encouraging the people who are in his word to keep going, to inspire, share, the people who make it consistent or the people just to give it a try, 30 days, every single day of November.

Rich Birch — Right.

Lucinda Rojas Ross — Open the Bible, experience God’s word and see what happens.
Rich Birch — Right.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And that’s really like the heart of the challenge and and challenging people both to take it for themselves, but just to invite people around them to do it too. And so it’s been really exciting to see how many people are already committing to it. And we’re just, at you know, we’re still like a little over a month or about a month away. And so it’s exciting to see. And we know, we know that God’s going to do something really special through this. And so just rallying around, getting people to commit and to build that habit.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — We know, um we’ve all seen studies about it takes about three weeks to build a habit, like that 30 days. That’s on purpose. Like get you get through 30 days, like you’ve done something and being able to create that habit and build it into before January, before, you know, the times we think we want to make those habits, like let’s do it now. Let’s all rally together and and do this.
Rich Birch — Okay, let’s pivot in a slightly different direction.
Rich Birch — So um I’m a fan, and this, remember, this comes from a spot of, like, I use the YouVersion app. I love it. ah So this is not a personal attack. But there are people out there who, like, are really down on app-based Bible experiences. They’re like, you got to read it in like a, you know, an actual physical book. And I’m not trying to pick a fight here. I’m not trying to like get in an argument over this, but I’m sure you’ve had people say that. And I don’t know what to say. I just say, I give the dumb answer and I’m like, listen, I just want people in God’s word. And I’m like, I am like, I don’t know, like yeah I’ve seen lots of people get engaged when they use YouVersion and I want to see more of that happen.
Rich Birch — But what what do you say or how do you think about that, you know, that critique? It’s a weird critique to me. And it always seems strange to me when when when pastors, particularly when they take on, again, I’m not trying to pick a fight, but what do you think about that? Comment.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — No, I mean, no, I think that’s something that we, and when we talk about the 30 day challenge, so like just really quickly on that, and it’s not even a complete different direction. Like, honestly, it’s however that works best for you, you know, paper Bible. And that’s the other exciting part of Bible momentum, like the Bible engagement momentum. It’s not just what we’re seeing. We’re seeing print Bible sales go up.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — We’re seeing like Gen Z buying, like the, the, the fact that God’s word is at the center of this, it doesn’t like, we have zero, like, just engage with God’s word. If we are a helpful way for you to do that, great.
Rich Birch — Sure.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so when we go back and tell the story actually of of when Bobby Grunewald had the idea um to create the Bible app, one of the things he was trying to solve for himself is that idea of consistency, of like, I just want to be more consistent, but I like i wonder if technology can help me with that.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so as as you kind of fast forward through the story, one of the one of the things that happened along the way is we actually created a website. I don’t know if a lot of people know the story. We actually created a website first and people started going to it and then it failed. Well, this was in 2007. People didn’t necessarily have like, you know, it was like a a lot ah desktop experience. And so what he always says that always sticks with me is we moved it from their nightstand to there their desk, their desktop.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And so what the Bible app, what technology helps us solve for is the fact that we’re not necessarily always going to have our paper Bible with us everywhere we go…

Rich Birch — Right.

Lucinda Rojas Ross — …but we also will have it with us everywhere we go. And we can engage in different ways.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Some people, audio Bible is really helpful for them. Like that’s something that they, that’s a really powerful way that they engage in God’s word. Having the different versions, the languages, like they’re just different things that it solves for or helps with. But yeah, that’s absolutely not to diminish, you know, if people feel more power to if you. If you like your paper Bible, that’s your go-to, great. We love that.
Rich Birch — Love it. Friends, listen to, go back and listen to listen to their incredible communicator. You do a good job at your thing and you’re not picking the fight. You took my, you totally dodged my question and answered in a super gracious way. Not surprised by that at all. Friends, we just want to see more people engaged with scripture. We know that it’s life transformating. It’s just such a clear picture of what it means to follow Jesus when we engage in his word.

Rich Birch — And so let’s get back to the 30 day challenge. I think that’s amazing. Are are do you know of churches that are doing this together, or is there is there a way that we could encourage? Is there, would you want to send them somewhere to kind of be a part of that? Or I’m sure there’s a bunch of different people are doing reading plans on, on you know, YouVersion. Talk us through how can we get more involved if we’re like, oh, we’re intrigued in that. We should do that.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yep. So if you go to globalbiblemonth.com. One, we’d love for for you to send people just to sign up for it, just so that we can show. Like that’s the encouraging part of seeing that number of people who’ve signed up, seeing that grow and seeing that momentum. But beyond that, there’s actually free church resources there. So there are sermon outlines, graphic slides, other things that you could do to challenge your church in this way.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — So there are, we’re curating some 30-day plans so that we make it really easy. So if you wanted to choose one and challenge your church to go through the same one together. You could use, and you know, for smaller groups of that, you could use some plans with friends feature to be able to do that together. You can discuss it in other places. But really, it’s what it’s what you you guys as pastors, you know your churches best.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — You know um you know what you’re what you’re teaching on, what you’re walking through, and how your people respond. But we definitely want to make sure that those resources are available so that you can take that, run with it. But I think definitely just encouraging to sign up so that we can help show and encourage other people to engage in that way.
Rich Birch — So that’s globalbiblemonth.com. We want to send people over there and make sure they sign up, you know kind of flag that they’re interested and there’s some resources there. You can see various you know apps and that that are participating. That that would be a great ah first step from people.

Rich Birch — Well, let’s think a little bit about the future. As you think about the future at YouVersion, man, that vision of the three E’s and it stood out to me. I don’t know again where I’ve missed this, but somewhere along as I was prepping for this, I bumped into that. Everyone, every day, everywhere. As you think about the future, what are the questions that you’re that you guys are asking, thinking about the future, about how we can ah see more people engage with scripture? We definitely seem to have a moment now.
Rich Birch — I’ve been saying this in lots of contexts. When we talk about this stuff, I’m like, let’s not miss this moment. Let’s not just, ah you know, let this go by, but let’s try to build a new foundation for a future. So what, what does the future look like for you as you wrestle with, you know, where’s God taking YouVersion as we go next?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yeah. So I think one of the things, there’s there are lots of different areas that we are looking at, but I think if you just collectively look at it one is is continuing to grow, continuing to get the Bible to more people around the world. And that also has expanded into, we talk about ability and we’re talking about family of apps now. So beyond the Bible app, we have Bible app light, which is for areas with lower connectivity and less capable devices. Bible app for kids, of course, has been around. So continuing to build on those and looking for more opportunities. Are there other things that we’re, that we need to pursue in that space? So that’s continued growth.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — We’ve talked a lot about engagement. That’s a really important part that power for the idea of how do we create features? How do we continue to update the apps and and build opportunities for people to engage more? So if you go back to when we added streaks, which for some people is helpful, some people it’s not. But it’s it’s one of those things that it just helps prompt people to think about, oh, have I spent time with God today? And so really looking at engagement, how do we get people not just into God’s word once, but coming back every single day?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — And then another part of where we’re looking at the future is really um is personalization. So one of the things we found makes makes a significant difference in consistency is when people have the Bible in their heart language, so more languages, and biblical content that’s really reflective of their local culture or what they’re going through in that moment.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — We can’t pretend to know from Oklahoma and the U.S. what someone’s going through on the other side of the world. So we’re actually um setting up, we’re we’re expanding, and we have actually global hubs where we have teams of people around the world who are focused on building relationships with pastors, church leaders, content partners, so that we can have more content in the app that meets people in their very specific context. So yeah, with the help of our partners, we’re now, we’re offering 3,600 versions of the Bible and 2,300 languages, and we just see that growing, especially with Bible translation efforts, accelerating. Like I said, those hubs, Latin America, European Europe, Africa, we have one Australia to really meet people, everyone, everywhere, not just in the context ah of where we are here.
Rich Birch — That’s incredible. Well, I just want to honor you and the team at YouVersion. You’re doing an amazing work. And, you know, this has been such a consistent player for years, you know, whatever that is now – almost two decades we’re coming up on, you know, of just helping churches and helping people take steps closer to and using, you know, engaging with scripture more. So just want to honor you and just everybody at the team that’s making it happen.

Rich Birch — As we wrap up today’s conversation, anything else you want to share ah just as we kind of close down today?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — No, just thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you so much for what you’re doing, both on an an an individual level to lead someone in your small group to engage in God’s word, but also for, you know, using the platform that you have to help others, inspire others too to continue leading in this way. And so just thank you to you. And I think just um for everyone listening to just think about how can we play our our part in pointing people back to God so he can speak them directly through his word. So Just thank you for what you’re doing, for what your listeners are doing to serve the kingdom.
Rich Birch — That’s great. So globalbiblemonth.com, that’s really the punchline where we want to send people. Is there anywhere else we want to send them online to connect with, to plug in more? Are there places, if I’m a church leader and and I’ve heard us talk about all these pages and all that stuff, is ah might open up the app and explore is probably the answer, but are there other places we want to send that are kind of helpful for that thing that we talked about earlier?
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Yes. So if you are interested in getting your church um in the in the Bible app. And so it can be found youversion.com/connect is your first step there. And so that will open up. YouVersion Connect is where we would point um pastors and church leaders to be able to go find how how they can do all of those things and unpack those insights that I talked about. That’s your your best bet in that direction.
Rich Birch — Great. Thanks so much, Lucinda. I appreciate being here today.
Lucinda Rojas Ross — Thank you so much, Rich. Appreciate you.

**Stop Saying the Attractional Church Is Dead** Oct 28, 2025
Let’s start with a confession.

I’ve misdiagnosed “dead” more times than I care to admit…more than a coroner in a zombie movie marathon.

I have this bad habit of declaring the demise of trends that are, in fact, quietly entering their prime. **I thought podcasts were “saturated” back in 2013 when I started the unSeminary podcast.** Everyone and their cousin had one, and I thought I was arriving at the party too late. Yet, I couldn’t have been more wrong. Podcasting didn’t plateau… it exploded. It became mainstream. The biggest names in media…people who swore audio was finished…now build entire empires around long-form podcast conversations. Joe Rogan, The Daily, SmartLess…they didn’t just succeed; they defined a new era of attention. What I thought was a crowded space was actually an emerging medium.

Then, there were QR codes. I mocked those little pixel boxes like a pro. I remember my friend Kenny using them years ago, and I laughed out loud. “No one’s going to pull out their phone to scan that,” I told him, dripping with confidence. Fast-forward to 2020, when every restaurant menu, conference check-in, and even church connect card required a QR code. They went from “gimmick” to “infrastructure” overnight. What I once dismissed as clunky, and dead became the universal bridge between the physical and digital worlds.

And YouTube…don’t get me started. I was doing video podcasts and then 8 years ago I stopped because…I thought it was dead. I used to think YouTube was for cat videos and makeup tutorials, not serious long-form content. I said, **“No one wants to watch a 30-minute video conversation on YouTube.”** Yes,I said that. Out loud. Turns out, millions of people do. YouTube has become the world’s most dominant podcast player and arguably the most powerful storytelling platform of our time. The lines between podcast, video, and TV are gone. YouTube isn’t a side project anymore…it’s the main stage.

Even books fooled me. I was convinced the Kindle was going to kill print. I believed we would all be reading on glass screens by now, that bookstores would become nostalgic museum pieces. **Yet, print continues to outsell e-books. Year after year.** There’s something about paper, the texture, the smell, the way you can hand a book to someone, that we’re just not ready to give up. The “dead” medium has more life than ever.

And that’s why **I roll my eyes when someone confidently declares that the “attractional church” is dead.**

I’ve heard it at conferences, read it in think pieces, seen it in hot-take clickbait reels: “People don’t want polished anymore.” **“The attractional model doesn’t work.”** “We’ve moved beyond that.”

No, we haven’t.

**Attractional church isn’t dead;** it was absorbed into “normal church” …and the churches that win in 2025 are the ones that treat invitation as culture, not campaign, and pair it with clear next steps into community and discipleship.

Things don’t die; they normalize. They get woven into the fabric. So it is with the attractional church.

Your Church Doesn’t Need Another Idea—It Needs a Plan

Most churches want to grow but feel stuck doing more without seeing results. Join **Rich Birch** for a free 60-minute workshop that gives you a simple, proven way to reignite momentum and see more people connected to your church.

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**What used to be “attractional” is now baseline**

Once upon a time, these were edgy moves. Now they’re table stakes:

**Music people actually love.** Not as a stunt, but as contextualized worship that lowers barriers for guests.

**Teaching that connects to everyday life.** Felt-need series, biblical clarity, concrete application, this is just effective preaching.

**Buildings (and lobbies) designed with outsiders in mind.** Wayfinding, hospitality, kids’ environments that kids *beg* to come back to.

The point isn’t flash, it’s hospitality. You don’t get extra credit for clean bathrooms, clear signage, and songs that don’t sound like 1998. That’s the bar, taken seriously by newcomers.

**Call it attractive if you like; I call it normal.**

**Follow the data, not the hot takes**

**Big days still work.** Easter and Christmas remain the largest attendance days in most churches. Many are doubling down on specific “Invite a Friend” Sundays, now embraced by roughly one in five churches…up from a decade ago. Crowds gather when we give them a clear reason and an easy on-ramp. [ref]

**Invitation remains the #1 front door.** Most churchgoers *are inviting* friends. In recent surveys, three in five Protestants had invited someone in the last six months, and among the unchurched, a friend’s invite remains the most compelling catalyst to attend. The channel is person-to-person. Always has been. [ref]

**Growing churches train, equip & motivate their people to invite friends.** Research on large, fast-growing congregations shows a straight-line relationship: the faster the growth, the more their people invite…and the stronger their pathways for incorporation (groups, serving, classes). Attractional momentum plus discipleship scaffolding. [ref]

**Multiplication correlates with evangelism.** Multisite and church-planting churches report higher conversion rates than peer churches. New campuses = new “front doors” + fresh invite energy. [ref]

It’s not just attractional, it’s transformational.

It’s attractional *plus* biblical literacy that roots people in the truth of Jesus and his teaching.

It’s attractional *plus* gospel-centered teaching that changes hearts and launches new lives.

It’s attractional *plus* the active work of the Holy Spirit providing an accessible encounter with God.

Together, that’s what makes the prevailing churches **magnetic** *and* **mature**.

**Church’s Leading the “New Attractional” Movement**

**Church of the Highlands (AL)**: “At the Movies” remains a massive newcomer on-ramp, and they report thousands of decisions for Christ tied to that series—*because* the creativity is welded to clear gospel invitations and next steps.

**Journey Church (FL)**: Practical, invite-worthy series + multiple services aimed at families = sustained growth; it’s invitation culture in action.

**City Church (IN)**: Arena Easters, historic-theatre Christmases, neighborhood ministry = attractional *and* local, leading to conversions and baptisms.

**Embrace (SD)**, **Union (MD)**, **Crosspoint City (GA)**, **First Orlando (FL)**: VIP guest processes, youth-led momentum, “Harvest Sunday,” language-specific services—different riffs on the same melody: make it easy to invite, then move guests swiftly into groups and serving.

None of these churches are “all show.” **They are disciplined about next steps.** That’s the quiet variable the think-pieces miss.

**What actually died?**

What died is the idea that you can run a slick weekend and call it discipleship. The vibe-only era is over. That’s *good* news.

In 2007, Willow Creek (is it safe to mention them?) dropped a bombshell study called ***Reveal: Where Are You?*** … a data-driven autopsy of its own ministry model. The results? Attendance and program engagement weren’t producing mature disciples. Cue the headlines: *“The Seeker Church Repents.”* The hot-take crowd declared the attractional model dead.

But that’s not what happened. *Reveal* wasn’t a eulogy…it was an evolution. **Willow realized crowds aren’t the same as change.** They didn’t scrap weekend experiences; they added spiritual coaching, personal disciplines, and next-step systems. In other words, they didn’t kill the attractional church, they deepened it.

Nearly two decades after that study, the lesson stands: the problem wasn’t being attractional; it was being *only* attractional. **The weekend is *still* the front door, but now the smartest churches obsess equally over what happens next**. The critique that was supposed to bury the model ended up refining it.

Like most “deaths” we announce in the church world, this one was just a metamorphosis.

**Attractional didn’t die…it grew up.**

The enduring pattern with prevailing churches today looks like this:

1) **Warm invite** → 2) **Excellent weekend** (clear gospel, real people, real stories) → 3) **Fast follow-up** (text within hours, personal touch within days) → 4) **Concrete next steps** (groups, serve, classes) → 5) **Multiplication** (invite others, launch campuses, tell the story).

When leaders say, “attractional is dead,” what they’re often reacting to is an empty, 2006 playbook…*production without a pathway*. That model is dead. Good riddance. But attractional as hospitality? As to lower friction for outsiders? As architecting moments that catalyze invitation? These are not dead; they’re disciple-making foundations.

**The Playbook: Normalize invitation, then engineer integration**

**1) Make invitation a year-round sport.**

**Cadence:** Anchor the year with a few clear invite moments (Easter, Fall launch, Christmas), but create smaller, monthly on-ramps (kickoff Sundays, “You Asked for It,” testimony weekends).

**Training:** Give a 3-minute “how to invite” moment quarterly. Provide scripts and shareable digital invites. Celebrate stories, weekly. Assume people *want* to invite; remove the social friction.

**2) Design for first-timers without dumbing down.**

**Wayfinding & welcome:** Parking → doors → kids check-in → seating. Test it with a mystery guest every quarter.

**Message design:** Preach the text; show the bridge. Put handles on doctrine—what it changes on Monday.

**Music & moments:** Choose songs that the room can sing. Test keys and tempos with real people, not just your band.

**3) Build a two-week guest journey (from start to joining a small group).**

**Day 0 (Sunday PM):** Text: “Thanks for coming, here’s one helpful next step.”

**Day 2:** Personal email/video from a real person (not a do-not-reply).

**Day 5:** Invite to a 20-minute “New Here Meetup” after any service…low-stakes face time.

**Day 12:** Direct ask: “Join a group” or “Jump on a serve team this weekend.” Churches that win speed up time-to-relationship. Clock it. Improve it. Repeat.

**4) Tie big weekends to tangible next steps.**

Baptisms scheduled within two weeks.

Alpha/start-here course every month; never more than two weeks away.

Group launches *immediately* after an invite series…sign-up on the spot. This is where “attractional” becomes “discipleship.”

**5) Multiply front doors.**

**Services:** Adjust times to match life patterns.

**Venues:** Add a smaller room vibe or a language-specific service.

**Campuses:** When you’re healthy, multiply. It raises your invitation ceiling and your conversion rate, not just your attendance.

**Objections, answered**

**“Young people don’t want this.”**
They do…if it’s welcoming, authentic, and purposeful. Gen Z and Millennials are showing up more frequently than older generations in recent data. The more we give them real responsibility (serve, lead, create), the more they stick around. [ref]

**“Attractional churches are shallow.”**
Only if you stop at the lobby. The fastest-growing churches are more…not less…obsessive about small groups and integration. The crowd isn’t the end; it’s the on-ramp. [ref]

**“This is just entertainment.”**
Creativity is hospitality. It lowers defenses, opens ears, and earns you a hearing for the gospel. The message doesn’t change; the method contextualizes. And the fruit…decisions, baptisms, transformed lives…keeps showing up where invitation and follow-up are tightly coupled. [ref]

**Don’t confuse needed reforms with funerals.**

I’ve been wrong before about what’s “over.” I said podcasts were saturated—now they’re a primary channel with staggering reach and spend. I said QR codes were a gimmick…now they’re woven into daily behavior. I said YouTube wasn’t for long-form … now it is the stage. I said print was toast … yet it remains king. My point isn’t to relitigate old takes; it’s to warn us against throwing out working channels because we’re bored, bruised, or reacting to excesses.

Paul’s counsel to a young, outnumbered movement in a pluralistic world is still the brief: *“**Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time.**”* (Colossians 4:5 ESV). Wisdom toward outsiders looks like lowering barriers, speaking plainly, and making the way back to God visible and viable. That’s not a fad. That’s faithfulness.

So, stop saying attractional church is dead. What’s dead is laziness, gimmicks, and vibe-with-no-pathway.

What’s alive…and working…is a church that gathers *and* scatters, which invites *and* disciples, that engineers moments people can *actually* bring friends to…and then walks with them toward Jesus. That’s not the old playbook. That’s the only playbook.

Ready to See Growth Again?

If you’re tired of guessing what drives church growth, join **Rich Birch** for the free **Church Growth Launchpad** workshop.

In just 60 minutes, you’ll discover a simple framework thriving churches use to build momentum and reach more people—without adding more to your plate.

Walk away with a clear **90-day plan** you can put into action right away.

**Wednesday, November 12th at 12noon ET / 9am PT**
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**Stop the Noise: Building Clear Communication in a Growing Church with Luke Cornwell** Oct 23, 2025

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with **Luke Cornwell**, Communications Pastor at **Realife Church** in Indiana. Founded in 2007, Realife has grown into one of the fastest-growing churches in America with two thriving campuses, a STEAM Academy for preschoolers, and a partnership with Southeastern University. Luke brings a unique blend of strategic communications and pastoral care, helping Realife stay aligned, relational, and mission-focused as it grows.

Is your church struggling to keep everyone on the same page as you scale? Luke shares how Realife Church builds clarity, connection, and communication systems that foster alignment and strengthen relationships in a fast-growing, multi-campus environment.

**Scaling communication as your church grows.** // When Luke joined Realife three and a half years ago, the church had 15 staff members. Now that number has more than doubled, and the need for clear communication has become critical. As the church prepared to launch its second campus, they realized the importance of everyone “speaking the same language.” Luke explains that while systems matter, relationships must remain central. Realife intentionally invests in both structured communication and personal connection to keep unity strong.

**Tools that simplify communication.** // Internally, Realife relies heavily on **Slack**—not email or text—for 95% of staff communication. Slack channels allow focused, real-time collaboration across teams while reducing clutter and missed messages. Email is reserved for non-urgent updates, while Slack is for action and discussion. This separation helps the team stay responsive and organized as the church grows.

**Leading with relationships, not control.** // Luke emphasizes that communications teams can’t function as “brand police.” Instead of saying no, Realife’s communications team focuses on collaboration and clarity. They regularly check in with the lead pastor and executive leaders to ensure alignment before major changes or campaigns. The key is keeping leadership informed, not blindsided. When communication is proactive and relational, trust grows and silos shrink.

**Excellence defined by stewardship.** // Realife defines excellence not as perfection, but as doing what you can with what you have. The communications team works hard to balance production demands with spiritual priorities, asking God to bless their efforts. Excellence means faithful stewardship and surrendering outcomes to God.

**Strategy over noise.** // In an age of constant distraction, Luke urges churches to communicate strategically rather than reactively. Realife maintains clear “lanes” for communication. For example, text messages are used for personal contact while emails are for reminders and responses. The church limits communication frequency and ensures each message adds real value.

**Knowing your audience.** // Realife uses tools like **Community Church Builder (CCB)** and **Nurture** to understand their congregation, track engagement, and identify people at risk of disengagement. Their volunteer team includes captains who care personally for others, ensuring no one falls through the cracks. This data-informed, relationship-driven approach helps the church shepherd people well—even as attendance multiplies.

**Discipling between Sundays.** // For Luke, communication isn’t just about promotion—it’s about discipleship. His team’s goal is to “disciple people between Sundays” by creating content that reminds, inspires, and challenges people to grow in their faith. From social media to email, every message aims to connect people with opportunities to take next steps toward Jesus.

To learn more about Realife Church, visit realifechurch.org (that’s *Realife* with one “L”) or email Luke directly.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, Rich here from the unSeminary podcast. Pumped to have you listening today. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We’ve got a communications expert on the phone, on the call. And you know that communications is critically important for your church as you try to gain alignment and clarity with your people and ah move the mission forward. ah Today, we’re talking to Luke Cornwell. He serves as a communication pastor at Realife Church, which was founded in 2007. It’s one of the fastest growing ah churches in the country. And if I’m counting correctly, they’ve got two campuses in Indiana. They exist to create a place where Uh, people love, so they will experience a loving God and something that really for the entire family.
Rich Birch — They, they include they, sorry, I’m stumbling. I’m talking to communications guy and I can’t talk straight today! What’s happening?!
Luke Cornwell — We all we all have that problem.
Rich Birch — They’ve got Realife STEM Academy for pre-K age and under and a partnership with Southeastern University. This is a fantastic church. Luke, welcome to the show.
Luke Cornwell — Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is a privilege.
Rich Birch — This is going to be good. Realife is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, as we said. For leaders who may not know the story, kind of know about the church, can you give us a snapshot of Realife? Tell us a little bit about that and tell us about your role as communications pastor. What does that cover?
Luke Cornwell — Absolutely. So, ah Realife Church started in 2007, like you mentioned. And, um you know, it was a slow start. Everybody has this dream that, you know, out of the, but you know, out of the gates, your your your church is just going to grow.
Luke Cornwell — And it took some time. And Pastor Adam and Kristen, our lead pastors, um founded it 18, 19 years ago. And you know, it took years to grow um to the point where it’s like, yeah, this is a a church. You know, we feel like a church. It’s it’s it’s not a constant grind.

Luke Cornwell — And um it really wasn’t until um about 2018 that, you know, numbers aren’t everything, but they give you a metric, right? You know, numbers aren’t everything, but it wasn’t until about 2018 where they started to cross over the 5- to 700 mark, which is a really good size church.
Rich Birch — Yep, yep.
Luke Cornwell — And, you know, it took that’s that’s like, you know, that’s 11 years.
Rich Birch — Right.
Luke Cornwell — And so since then, um it is just catapulted in both number and impact in the community. And this year we are averaging more than we ever have on our weekend services. This February, we launched our second campus. So our primary campus is in New Palestine, and our second campus is in Greenfield. And this last week, we are so we have 500 people attend our second campus nine months in.
Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. That’s huge.
Luke Cornwell — So this is nothing that we’ve done. It is all God and God. We’re excited for what he has for us in the future.
Rich Birch — Nice. Well, I’m looking forward to learning from what God’s doing in your midst and…

Luke Cornwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and particularly around this communication stuff.
Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — It’s so critically important. And, you know, one of the downsides, people like the idea of being inside a quick, fast growing church, but it’s like it’s difficult having lived in that space. And communication complexity is really one of the the and problems that we deal with.
Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Particularly as a church’s growth accelerates, it’s like, man, there’s a lot to pull together. What challenges have you run into as the church has been growing or that you’ve seen other churches ah that are you know making sure that everybody knows what’s going on?

Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — What have been some of the complexities of growing quickly from a communication point of view?

Luke Cornwell — So when I started three and a half years ago as the communications pastor for Realife Church, we had about 15 full-time employees, full-time staff members. And we were just starting the STEAM Academy that you mentioned earlier.
Luke Cornwell — Now we’ve more than doubled that. So one of the first things that we recognized is just our internal communications was just in dire need of tightening up. And so as we prepared to launch this campus, we had to make sure that we were all speaking the same language, that we were you know all working towards same goals.
Luke Cornwell — And this is not to say that we weren’t before. We had a really tight knit group of staff. But as we grew in staff numbers and weekend numbers, we realized that we had to be on the same page, even more so. You know when you’ve got 10 or 15, it’s really easy to get into a room…

Rich Birch — Right.

Luke Cornwell — …and to just talk things out. But when you’re at 30, 35, where we’re at now, like it’s hard, like it’s a it’s a large group conversation. It’s no longer a small group.
Luke Cornwell — And so there are have been a few things that we’ve had to do. We’ve had to change the makeup of um of our teams. We’ve had to have smaller meetings and then larger meetings. And we’ve had to prioritize just making sure that we ah keep our relationships strong through all of that noise. Because, you know, we all know systems are great. But it’s all about the people. And it’s all about relationships ah within those systems.
Rich Birch — Well, I want to come back to the relationship piece in a second, because I think that’s critically important. But talk me through ah how from a communications kind of keeping your team all on the same page, you talk about small, you know, small or small teams, large teams.
Rich Birch — How do you think about ensuring that you’re from a kind of system point of view, we’ll get to relationship in a second…

Luke Cornwell — Yep.

Rich Birch — …but from a system point of view, kind of keeping everyone on the same page and ensuring that the right people know the right things at the right time?
Luke Cornwell — Yeah. So over time, we have implemented a series of, and this is going sound horrible because not everybody loves meetings, but really connection points throughout the week where we make sure we talk through our weekend services, where we’re planning of four, six months ahead on large events and you know just strategically thinking through what it looks like, what our calendar looks like.
Luke Cornwell — Most people don’t realize that, but a church’s calendar can really dictate the ebb and flow of what is going on in the church. And so we’ve had to create some of those rhythms um and recreate some of those rhythms as we’ve grown, and as we’ve hired staff and brought people in.
Luke Cornwell — And so even today, you know we’re having conversations about what do our teams look like? What are the structures? And so making sure that everybody is in sync with that.
Luke Cornwell — And then we use simple tools like Slack.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Luke Cornwell — We don’t text each other. We Slack each other.

Rich Birch — Right.
Luke Cornwell — And that helps us to keep everything focused. It helps us because we can have lots of small groups, if you know about Slack.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Luke Cornwell — Slack has allows you to have channels and different groups. And that allows us to keep each other all the time in the loop and in the know of what’s going on.
Rich Birch — Yeah, so so I’m assuming that also would include ah like you’re not emailing internally either. Like any internal communication really is on Slack. You’re trying to cut down the total number of channels, get a focus on Slack.
Luke Cornwell — I would say 95% of our communication is all in Slack.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah that’s interesting.
Luke Cornwell — Emails—so we look at it this way…Email is like, hey, you’re on vacation. I need to send you something…

Rich Birch — Right.

Luke Cornwell — …and I want you to see it, but it doesn’t need immediate attention. Slack is like, hey, and I need you to respond to this.
Rich Birch — Right. Yes, please see it and engage with it.
Luke Cornwell — Please see. Yes.
Rich Birch — Can you talk us through what the your kind of weekly or like the regular meeting rhythm looks like? You mentioned like, hey, we’ve got, you know, meetings throughout the week. What does that, what are those, what’s the kind of form of that take? What’s that look like?
Luke Cornwell — Yeah, so for the entire group, um every week we have a time of worship and what we would call our chapel on Tuesday morning. And that’s a time for us to ah get into God’s word with a short little devotional, to pray together, to sing a few songs, and to really just bond spiritually together and seek God for you know ah whatever we have going on.
Luke Cornwell — And so there’s a lot of times where our lead pastor, Pastor Adam, will get up there and say, hey, yeah let’s let’s pray together about these things coming up because they’re important to us and we can’t do this without him.
Luke Cornwell — And then after that, we have a time of just connection. Our executive pastor will lead a one church meeting ah that allows us to hear from both sides, from our two campuses and what is going on in those places.
Luke Cornwell — And then ah we break into smaller teams at that point. Our pastors and directors get together and we discuss um what is going on detail. Our dream team, our volunteer core, what are some things that we’re ah maybe ah roadblocks we’re running into and and how do we how do we ah retain and and how do we recruit? And we’re talking through those things in a smaller core for our campuses.
Luke Cornwell — So that’s just three of the things that we do every week.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And even, ah you know, listeners, the thing I love that’s built in there is um there’s like an there’s a natural um kind of echoing out cadence there. It’s like it’s naturally set up for like, hey, here’s ah here’s kind of a big direction thing. Let’s talk about it in a little more detail. And then we’re going to get down into small groups, into our individual teams and talk about it. Not that that’s necessarily the structure you’re going to follow every week. But we’ve got to cascade our communication, make sure that people…

Luke Cornwell — Yes.

Rich Birch — …you know, understand and get a chance to talk about it. Even just in your weekly meetings. I love that that’s, you know, set up already.
Luke Cornwell — Yeah. And so another form of that is our executive leadership team meets on Mondays.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Luke Cornwell — So it’s a real, again, it’s a great cascading of information and then it just sets our week up to to succeed.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Love, you know, love that. Well, let’s loop back on the relationship piece. You’d mentioned this, I caught my eye. So true. You know, I think as a church grows, like when you were all, you could all sit around one table, you know, order a box of pizza, everybody knows what’s going on.
Rich Birch — And it’s not just that information falls through the cracks, but actually you can, you know, step on people’s toes, lose relationship there. How are you keep keeping focused on the relationship side as you continue to grow?
Luke Cornwell — So one of my roles as a communication director is to keep alignment with anything that is internally, but also you know primarily going out. And so that includes working with our worship experience pastor and what is happening in our Sunday and weekend services.
Luke Cornwell — That includes working with our lead pastor, making sure we’re carrying his vision through what’s printed, through what’s on the web, ah through what’s in our social social markets, Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and all those different things.
Luke Cornwell — And so one of the things that like I hold near and dear to my heart is this um passion for people and passion for relationships. So, you know, I mentioned Slack. My Slack is full of DMs and people. I’m constantly talking to almost every one of our pastors every single day about something that is going on in their world.
Luke Cornwell — And our team, our goal is for our comms team is that we’re facilitating their ministry. So yes, we have our directives, um but we are not living and working in a silo. So we may own something, but we’re not working alone.
Rich Birch — So I’m sure this never happens at Realife, but sometimes comms departments um can be seen internally as like, those are the people that just say no to things.
Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Like those are the people that are like, no, you can’t get an announcement. No, we can’t make a video for you. No. Or like you did this thing that was off brand and like, stop it. You know…
Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Like, it’s like, they’re like the communications police or whatever. How do you ensure that you’re not that for Realife?
Luke Cornwell — That is a really good question. And if if you have a miracle drug, um I would like to know, because I think that plagues every communications team in some form or another.
Rich Birch — Yeah, sure.
Luke Cornwell — I don’t think you ever are perfect at it. But what we do is we you know, yesterday I had a phone call with our lead pastor. I said, Hey, I need five minutes your of time. I have a very specific question to ask you.
Luke Cornwell — And he said, sure. So I’ll call you about, you know, 11 o’clock or whatever time it was. And he called me and I said, Hey, I have this very specific question for you. I want to ensure that what we’re about ready to do, you are okay with.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — Not because we’re going way out of the bounds of our values, which are super important to us. Not because this is against our mission, because it’s a tiny little change, but it’s highly visible. It’s changing a name.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Luke Cornwell — And it was just a small change of that name. So we had ran that up through our executive pastor, our comms team, our events person, all in agreement with it. But I wanted to double check before we put it in print that our lead pastor was okay with it. So a two-minute conversation over the phone ensures that, one, he’s aware of it.
Luke Cornwell — Two, if he has any concerns, he can speak into it. Now he was like, hey, I’m good with it. We’re good. Let’s double check this but and that, but we’re good. And that allows us to stay aligned, keeps him informed, and then allows us to proceed with confidence.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Luke Cornwell — So if you do that across all of your channels and have that respect up and across peers, then it really helps to break down those those conversations that you end up having of like, hey, you went off base here.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. ah that That aligns with ah some advice I recently heard um where like similar kind of advice that, you know, lots of times lead pastors, particularly, they’re they just they want to be they want to know what’s going on. They don’t necessarily need or want to even be able to like change everything, but but if they’re operating in a low information environment if they don’t actually know what’s going on they’re going to be more likely to step in and micromanage that actually by by doing lots of informing…

Luke Cornwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …that you know gives them the opportunity to kind of see what’s going on…

Luke Cornwell — So true.

Rich Birch — …a sense of what’s there which I thought was, you know, I think that’s good. That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve had to work at that. And I’m not perfect at that. Our team, we’re not perfect at that.
Rich Birch — Sure, sure.
Luke Cornwell — Because what we want to do is we want to ah we want to tell them, hey, we’ve got this taken care of. You don’t need to worry about this.
Rich Birch — Right.
Luke Cornwell — You worry about lead pastor stuff. We’ll worry about comm stuff. But the truth the matter is we the the church is a communication platform.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes.
Luke Cornwell — Everything is communications.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Luke Cornwell — And so we really have to work hard ah to make sure that we’re aligned in that.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, that’s good. Okay. So how how are you balancing? To me, there’s these two kind of tensions in communications that we deal with in particularly fast growing church. There’s like the urgency of needing to promote what’s coming next.
Luke Cornwell — Yes.
Rich Birch — Like there’s always something coming down the pipe, right?
Luke Cornwell — Yes. Oh, so all the time.
Rich Birch — Like it’s like, and, but doing that in a way, the other side of the tension is like, we want to reinforce our culture. We want to reinforce who we are. And we we want to build, we want to use the communication that we’re doing that to kind of build that culture. How do you, and and those, they can be at odds sometimes they can be kind of, there’s an inherent tension in that.
Luke Cornwell — Sure.
Rich Birch — Talk me through what that looks like.
Luke Cornwell — So it really comes down to how you define excellence.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — So we we strive for excellence. I believe that’s one reason why God has blessed our church is because we strive to be excellent in everything. We’re we’re not trying to be more than he wants us to be. We’re just trying to be excellent in whatever that we’re doing.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — We don’t want to allow things to fall through the cracks. We don’t want to do things halfway. And excellence, in our words, is defined by doing what you can with what you have.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — And so when it comes to to the communications department, that’s rough. Like that’s hard. Because we we see what’s available to us via social media. We we see what other churches are doing. There is always something more that a communications department could do if they had the time.
Luke Cornwell — You could always do one more video, one more social post, ah one more print piece. And so balancing the “enough” is difficult. And so some of that, I’ll I’ll be honest, some of that is a God thing. It’s like, okay, God, what is enough? We need you to bless what we have. We need you to bless. We need to bless we need you to bless what we’re doing. We’re going to do our best. We’re going to be as excellent as we can.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Luke Cornwell — And then leaving it in his hands.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah. How do you, as a communications person, it’s kind of a related issue, ah maybe adjacent to that. We live in a very noisy culture. Like there is, you know, our people are, you know, they’re distracted all day long. And so I think we’ve got to raise the value in what we do.
Luke Cornwell — Yes.
Rich Birch — It’s our responsibility to to push that up in their priorities to make it you know important for them. How do you balance that off with not just contributing to the noise that is you know the kind of broader culture? How how does that work out for you as you think about that with with the people at RealLife?
Luke Cornwell — I think ah there’s a couple of things that are in play here. You need to have a strategy.
Rich Birch — Good.
Luke Cornwell — And by strategy, you need to know why you do what you do and then follow that. You need to have a plan. When you don’t have a plan, everybody is sending communication this way and that way. And, you know, the the average person in a church um is many, many, has many, many faces. So they’re a parent. They’re a a husband, they’re a man, they’re a, um, a giver. You know so like the the possibility of them getting multiple pieces of communication a week is super high.

Luke Cornwell — And so one, you’ve you’ve got to have a strategy and a plan and two, you have to bring value. I think you said that before, you’ve got to bring the, it can’t be just a reminder.
Rich Birch — Right.
Luke Cornwell — And then the last thing I’ll say is you need to keep certain lanes for certain things. So keep lanes clear. We will not text people just because that’s what they answer. We reserve text for personal contact. We reserve email for responses to something that they’ve done, but also reminders. And then we don’t send over, we over-send communication.
Rich Birch — Yeah, what what would you say, how else would you define the kind of certain lanes? That’s a, it caught my attention. That’s kind of certain lanes for certain things. Are there any other kind of boundaries you follow there?
Luke Cornwell — Sure. We try to balance so we don’t send more than one email a day.
Rich Birch — Right, okay.
Luke Cornwell — So if if kids are sending an email to the parents, we try not to send a giving email. We have a weekly midweek update that goes live goes out and goes live every Wednesday night, Wednesday afternoon, evening. That’s a reoccurring. So people know, hey, let’s not send an email unless we have to Wednesday. We try not to overlap.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. Yeah, there’s definitely the kind of the air traffic controller part of your job, which is the like, hey, how do we try to coordinate all of that? That gets to the kind of the no, you can be the no person, ah you know, like or the not yet person.
Luke Cornwell — For sure.
Rich Birch — How do you balance, you know, that off at the kind of the intersection of staff expectations and then congregational or your church attention? You know, what have you learned about saying no, maybe there’s a new comms director that’s listening in. You do actually have to do that sometimes. What’s the right way to do that? How do you do that in an elegant way so that, you know, you don’t create enemies internally?
Luke Cornwell — So true, so true. The best way is to not say no. The best way to communicate no is not in what you’re not going to do, but in what you’re going to do.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Luke Cornwell — So, hey, we we have a new strategy for email. This is what our plan is.
Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — Does anybody have any issues with the plan? You know float it through leadership, you know wherever you need to go with that. Float it horizontally to your peers, to other pastors, or to other directors. Hey, does this work for you? Is it okay if on Wednesdays? It’s not that you’re looking for their approval. You’re looking for their collaboration. And they might see something that you didn’t see.

Rich Birch — Right.
Luke Cornwell — And so having that opportunity to float that up or float it horizontally allows you kind to kind of prepare them again, communicate with them, but also keeps you from having to say, oh, I’m sorry, we’re not doing that. Why aren’t we doing that? Well, we’re doing this and they don’t have to ask as many questions when they’re in the know.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. but So as you think about, you know, there’s a lot going on here to try to, you know, pastor the communication side. It’s not just like, hey, we’re trying to be good at communications. We’re really trying to move our organization closer to Jesus.

Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — How do those two sides of your role intersect?

Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — The kind of communication piece and the pastoring piece? How does this help us push people towards relationship with Jesus?
Luke Cornwell — So our goal for communications is to disciple people between Sundays.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — So that’s kind of what our overarching big goal. Then we partner with small groups and we partner with our dream team, our volunteer pool, and our next steps directors and pastors. We our goal is to partner with them to help their ministry succeed in the communications, in the technical side of things, we’re not really here for ourselves. We don’t have our own silo. We’re really just helping bring everybody together and to kind of be that glue amongst the church leaders so that we can really, like you said, we want to bring people closer to Jesus. And so that that is our goal. Any social media post that we do, any email is to either remind them, to inspire them, or to push them closer to Jesus, give them opportunities to draw closer to Jesus.
Rich Birch — What’s your, so this is like ah um ah bit of a a slightly different direction. What do you see that’s like a low hanging fruit problem that lots of churches are getting wrong on the communication front that like you see it consistently, you’re like, oh, it’s man, where we keep fumbling this ball. Is there anything that you see that we’re we’re just not doing well that from your seat we should be doing better?
Luke Cornwell — Yeah. That is such a good question, and it could go so many different directions. So many different directions.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Luke Cornwell — You know, there’s a couple things that are popping into my head. So from a graphic side, consistency. You know, when you’re a small church, it’s like, Hey, you’re just happy to have a graphic to stick up there for the potluck on Sunday afternoon.
Rich Birch — Right. Yep.
Luke Cornwell — Or for the the ladies night. And you’re just, you’re just happy to have it. But as you grow larger, people expect things ah like graphics and they expect them to be unified. They don’t look the same, but they expect to have the same feel.
Luke Cornwell — I will say probably one of the biggest things that I feel is low-hanging fruit is just truly understanding their demographics and their church, their people. Because if you know who you’re talking to, you change the way you’re talking.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Luke Cornwell — We’re in the process of creating some ah some drip campaigns for different demographics in our church. You know, after an event, we want to communicate consistently over time with our ladies, with our men, with our married couples, et cetera, ah from different events that we have at the church. And so like, What, who who are we talking to? What value are we adding to them when we send them an email and say, hey, you know, it was great having you at our ladies night. And here’s a short devotional, or have you considered ah these small groups, ladies? um This would help you build community in your church.

Luke Cornwell — So knowing who you’re talking to, your demographic is completely, knowing who your church is made up of. So, you know, again, this, you know, you go from like, what…
Rich Birch — How do you do that? How do we do that? How do we, you know, beyond a couple hundred people
Luke Cornwell — Yeah.
Rich Birch — …it can be really difficult to understand who’s in our church. What what are you guys doing to try to understand your people better?
Luke Cornwell — Yeah, so we have a um a bunch of tools that we use. One is our ah CCB, Community Church Builder. We use that to manage our people. So we are integrally in part of and in CCB, understanding who our people are.
Luke Cornwell — We’re also using a new product called Nurture, um which helps us identify people helps us identify those who are at risk of going out the back door. Because, you know as your church grows, so do the number of people. And it’s super easy for somebody to come in on a Sunday morning and really not feel noticed, really not feel known. And it’s easy for them to walk out the back door. They had a hard week. You know, maybe they struggle with some kind of addiction. And you know, you know They love Jesus, but it’s just easy for them to stay home and not come on a Sunday.
Luke Cornwell — Or maybe it’s sports. You know sports is like the number one killer right now of people coming to church without opportunity because they go, hey, we’ve got stuff going on this weekend. Sorry, we’re not going to make it.

Luke Cornwell — So knowing your demographic and who those people are and then using tools like Nurture, your church management software. And then we, our volunteer team, our dream team is made up of captains who care for people.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — And so we are constantly training and meeting with them, having them care um for those who are underneath them and making sure that people don’t fall through the cracks.
Rich Birch — That’s cool. That’s great. Yeah, I think that’s ah that’s a real issue for so many of our churches, for sure. Again, slightly different category. You mentioned it at one point, the STEAM Academy.

Luke Cornwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — This caught my eye ah you know, and and how does it all, tell us what that is.

Luke Cornwell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And how does that fit into the kind of overall family ministry strategy at the church or kids ministry strategy?
Luke Cornwell — Sure.
Rich Birch — How does that all fit together?
Luke Cornwell — So when we moved into our new building just a little over three and a half years ago, at the time, our county, Hancock County, is one of the fastest growing in Indiana. And just exponential growth happening all around us. Like out my door here is is a cornfield. You know, so we’re surrounded by cornfields, but we’re also 20 minutes from Indianapolis.
Rich Birch — Okay, yep.
Luke Cornwell — And so it’s one of the fastest growing areas. And one of the biggest needs in our area is a preschool childcare ministry. Call it a daycare if you’d like, but it it really is, it’s a childcare ministry. And so ah when I arrived, they had been in talks with the County and different groups of like, how could we do this? And within gosh, three months of my arrival, in 2022, we started the STEAM Academy. And we’re actually in a construction phase right now to double the size of our STEAM Academy.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Luke Cornwell — Right now we have 65, 70 kids every day that are dropped off to our building. And so not everybody goes to our church. So this is it’s available to the community.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Luke Cornwell — And our goal is to double that over the next three years or so.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Luke Cornwell — And um we see that as a huge ministry. And we’ve seen both teachers um that work in the academy, as well as um parents begin coming to our church, get baptized, give their hearts to the Lord, ah because we have this environment for them that is good for their kids.
Rich Birch — That’s cool. And what does it run like five days a week? What’s the kind of frame of that?
Luke Cornwell — It’s five days a week. It’s Monday through Friday all day.
Rich Birch — That’s incredible. That’s good. I love that. You know, one of the things I find interesting about communications is from my from my seat, communications is a professional discipline like accounting or bookkeeping. You know, when a church is is starting, ah there might be somebody like a volunteer, somebody who’s doing the accounting, or maybe it’s even, you know, it’s like the you know pastor’s wife or the pastor’s spouse is doing it or something like that.
Rich Birch — But then eventually get to the point where the church grows and you’ve got to bring on some help. You get a bookkeeper, maybe an accountant, eventually a CFO, that sort of thing. But communication for is exactly the same. The church grows to a certain size. And I think because pastors talk for a living, they think they’re good at communications. But communications is more than just like getting phraseology right. Like there’s a whole strategy, a part of it, that it it demands, you know, um an expert like you to really help draw this thing together.
Rich Birch — If you’re thinking about a church that’s out there today, that’s maybe listening in, maybe they’re a church of a thousand people. So they’re, you know, that’s a sizable church, but they feel like things are just scattered and like, they’re, they’re not clear. They’re not aligned. What would you, what would be some first steps that they should take to try to get some more clarity, get some more alignment?
Luke Cornwell — Yeah, I think that is so true. Communications is so broad. You know You could say, well, video is communications.
Rich Birch — Right.
Luke Cornwell — And print and design. These are all different disciplines within the communications. And then you’ve got you know some churches have their next steps programs under communications. Ours is separated out, but um we work very, very closely together because that’s texting and emailing and and those different things. And so you’ve got all of these micro-disciplines within this idea of comms. And it is super easy to kind of get lost in all of that and go, what do we need?
Luke Cornwell — And I think um I love Pat Lencioni’s Working Genius Assessment because it helps us know how we work together. And making sure that you have not just disciplines, but also things like, you know, creative people and people who are tenacious, and people who like to help with things. And looking at your staff and your volunteer base and saying, do we have a complete package of people who are furthering the gospel?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — Now, disciplines, you know, I can teach you how to use MailChimp. If you’re a smart person, which, you know, you’re a smart person.

Rich Birch — I might be able to figure out MailChimp.
Luke Cornwell — Yeah. I could teach you how to use MailChimp. So it’s easy to learn some tools. What’s difficult and what you’re not going to do is you’re not going to change people’s personalities. And so making sure that you have a staff or a volunteer base that’s well-rounded to fill in those blanks, I think is great.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Luke Cornwell — And then just growing your knowledge. um So looking at what the disciplines that your church requires. Some churches love videos. They want to do story videos.

Rich Birch — Right.
Luke Cornwell — Other churches don’t. So if that’s something that your church is your church values, then maybe a second or third hire is a full-time video person, you know. But if your church is um somebody who values ah weekend services more and and it’s more auditory-based, maybe you you hire an assistant or a copywriter, somebody who can help write and help ah be creative in that.
Luke Cornwell — Now, you know, these days we have AI and everybody’s an expert, but it still takes a skill set…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Luke Cornwell — …to even work you know the chat GPT to get what you want and make it sound good. So there are a lot of things, but I believe this. This is how we lead it Realife. And that is people are our biggest asset because they have God-given gifts.
Rich Birch — So true.
Luke Cornwell — And yes, ChatGPT can write better than all of us, but nobody can channel the Holy Spirit like his creation.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. Well, just as we’re coming to land today, what any other kind of final advice – this has been really good. I’ve got a page of notes here, some stuff to think through on, you know, on our side, but, but anything else you’d like to share just as we, we wrap up today’s conversation.
Luke Cornwell — I just want to encourage the communications pastors or maybe maybe the person who’s out there who’s just their job is communication. They’ve found themselves in that because yeah, maybe they were good at the video editing, or they were good at the design and it’s a a side thing for them, or it’s a gift that they’ve been given.
Luke Cornwell — And I just encourage you to continue to focus on your relationship with Jesus and those around you. And like collaborating with people is the best way to see God’s vision and plan for your lives and for your church to succeed. And so I think that is the the biggest thing that I’ve learned over the last couple of years.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Well, look, this has been great. Super great, helpful, challenging. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Luke Cornwell — Sure. They can go to realifechurch.org. They can hit up our Instagram or our Facebook and watch it. Both handles are Real Life Church. By the way, that’s Real Life Church with one L.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice.
Luke Cornwell — So R-E-A-L-I-F-E.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Luke Cornwell — And so that that is different. There are there are a couple of those and there are other churches where it’s one word and Realife.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Luke Cornwell — And that’s a ah whole nother story for another day.
Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.
Luke Cornwell — But autocorrect you know saved me many times on that.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Luke Cornwell — But yeah, so they can meet us there. And then I’d be happy to field any emails…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Luke Cornwell — …at luke.cornwell@reallifechurch.org. And my email is on the website. So.
Rich Birch — That’s great. Luke, appreciate you being here today. Thanks so much for your being on the show.
Luke Cornwell — Thanks.

Your Church’s Growth Is Killing Your Church’s Growth Oct 21, 2025

In 8th grade, I thought I was unstoppable. A growth spurt gave me height, leverage, and what felt like destiny. I could clear high jump bars with a scissors kick while others struggled. No training, no technique, just raw advantage.

I beat everyone in my school, made it to my town’s track and field meet, and placed well. I was on top of the high jump world. (Albeit it was a very small world!)

In my freshman year of high school, I was toast. Everyone else had learned the Fosbury Flop…the backward roll that revolutionized high jumping. My height advantage evaporated. Suddenly, I couldn’t clear the same bars, and I didn’t even make the varsity team.

Lesson learned: Growth can make you lazy. It can trick you into thinking you’re great when you’re just tall.

Churches fall into the same trap. Growth feels like validation: more people, more buzz, more money. However, growth can be toxic if it masks underlying weaknesses. It’s a sugar high that makes leaders feel invincible when, in reality, they’re just riding momentum.

The hard truth: the very growth you’re celebrating may be setting you up for decline.

Let’s break it down. Five areas where unchecked growth quietly kills future growth:

First-Time Guest Capture Rate
New Donor Retention Gap
Follow-Up Speed to First Touch
Kids/Students Capacity Ratio
Staffing Leverage

1. First-Time Guest Capture Rate: Growth Without Names = Decline in Disguise

If you don’t know who your guests are, they don’t exist. Churches celebrate attendance spikes but often fail at the most basic task: capturing guest info.

Here’s the brutal math: in many churches, only 3 out of 10 first-time guests fill out a connect card or text-in form. That means, 70% leave without a trace. Imagine running a restaurant that never records who dines there. That’s not strategy…it’s negligence. [ref]

Unchecked growth hides failure. When 100 people show up, you don’t feel the loss of the 70 who disappear. But fast-forward six months: you’ll plateau, scratching your head about why your “record Sundays” aren’t leading to real growth.

If your church is growing, you should see new visitors each week—roughly 2% of your average attendance. If your attendance is 1,000, that means week in and week out, you are averaging 20 guests that you could contact, follow up with, and invite to be a part of your community. If you don’t see this regularly, you are missing guests.

Without this new guest information, you are just gathering a crowd that you won’t be able to move towards deeper community and connection. Your growth will plateau and slide into decline. You will be left wondering where all the people went.

Audit your capture rate for the last three months. Not an estimate, an actual number.
Set a benchmark goal: at least 2% of every single week should be first-time guests that you can contact.
Create frictionless ways to respond: text-in, QR codes, digital follow-up.
Use an “ethical bribe” …a gift that makes people want to give you their info.
Assign accountability: one staff member or volunteer owns the process every week.

Catch their contact information. No contact information, no long-term growth.

2. New Donor Retention Gap: The Revolving Door of Giving

Every pastor gets excited about first-time givers, but most of those givers will never give again. In the nonprofit world, donor retention hovers around 20%. This means, 8 out of 10 first-time donors vanish. [ref] For churches, the numbers aren’t much better.

Do you know your church’s donor retention rate? But even more pointedly, do you know the retention rate of new donors to your church? If the gap between these continues to grow, your church will run out of money, and your growth will stumble. Many churches have a core of faithful, long-term donors (that’s why the church around the corner from your place, with just a few people left, hasn’t died), but it takes more intentional effort to onboard new donors to fuel the future of the mission.

Growth masks this churn because new people continually replenish the bucket. But it’s a leaky bucket. Giving totals may rise, but the base is fragile. When momentum slows…or the economy dips…you’ll discover you’ve been funding ministry with one-night stands, not long-term partners.

Track your first-to-second gift rate. If 100 people give for the first time this year, how many give again within 90 days?
Build a 48-hour thank-you system: no generic receipts—only personal thanks, handwritten notes, and phone calls.
Report impact. Show donors what their gift did…student camp funded, families served, baptisms celebrated.
Push recurring giving. Monthly donors have retention rates above 80%. One-time donors: below 20%. The math is obvious.
Treat new donors like seedlings—early care determines long-term fruit.

Generosity follows gratitude. When people don’t feel valued, their support dries up fast.

3. Follow-Up Speed to First Touch: Delay = Decay

In our world, speed is the new currency. Amazon ships in 24 hours and Uber arrives in five minutes. If your church waits a week to follow up with guests, you’ve already lost them.

Here’s the reality: follow up within 24 hours, and your chance of a second visit can be five times higher than if you wait a week. Five. Times. Higher. [ref]

Growth hides this problem because guests keep coming. But look at your second-visit rate: it’s probably abysmal. People don’t return because they never heard from you.

For years, I’ve said to campus pastors at new campuses to grab the “new here” cards before they are whisked away to a central team member to enter them into a database. Take pictures of each one. Then, on Sunday night, call each of those “new here” guests. Yes, Sunday evening.

Too many churches are too scared to show some passion in the follow-up process. I bet that my dentist has more urgency in ensuring that I book my next plaque removal than your church does in inviting guests to return. Let’s change that.

Secret shop your own church: fill out a card, see how long it takes to hear back.
Benchmark goal: 100% of first-time guests contacted within 24 hours.
Build a system: Handwritten note written on Sunday by volunteers, Sunday afternoon text by campus pastor, Monday morning email from the church, Monday night phone call from a member of the team.
Train volunteers to share the load; don’t leave it to one overworked staff member.
Measure weekly: how many cards came in, how many were contacted, and when?

Slow follow-up is the silent killer of momentum. If you can’t respond fast, stop bragging about being “a friendly church.”

4. Kids/Students Capacity Ratio: The Family Filter

Healthy churches consistently see 20–30% of attendance made up of kids and students [ref]. That ratio isn’t just a nice-to-have; it’s the single strongest indicator of long-term health. Below 20%? You’re drawing adults but not reaching families. And without families, you don’t have a future.

You can celebrate growth today…more adults in seats, a buzzing lobby…but if kids aren’t in the mix, you’re quietly aging out. A church that trends older without bringing in the next generation is on a countdown clock.

Parents may love the preaching, music, and atmosphere, but if their kids aren’t excited to come back, the family will drift. Flip it around: when kids are thriving, families stick. Kids aren’t just a ministry; they’re your best retention strategy.

What percentage of your weekly attendance is under 18? Don’t guess—track it.
Aim for 20–30%. Below 20% = families slipping through. Above 30% = maxed capacity.
Compare the ratio year over year. Stable or growing = future. Shrinking = slow death.
Listen to leavers. Ask why families bail. Nine times out of ten, it’s the kids’ experience.
Put money where it matters. Staff, space, and resources for next-gen aren’t side projects…they’re the core to the mission.
Tell the wins. Tell real stories of life change happening in your kids and student ministries. That’s what builds confidence in the future.

Ignore kids and you’re not just losing families—you’re scheduling your church’s funeral.

5. Staffing Leverage: Stop Hiring Doers, Start Hiring Leaders

In small churches, staff do ministry. In large churches, staff equip people to engage in ministry. Fail to make that shift, and you’ll drown.

Here’s the metric: average churches run about 75 attendees per full-time staff. High-performing churches run 100:1 or more. If you’re at 40:1, you’re bloated. [ref]

Growth often hides inefficiency because staff are hustling to keep everything together. But payrolls balloon, volunteers disengage, and eventually the model collapses. You can’t hire your way to 10,000. You must mobilize.

This isn’t just organizational efficiency, it’s obedience. Ephesians 4 reminds us that pastors, teachers, and leaders exist “to equip the saints for the work of ministry.” [ref] The goal isn’t to create a staff of superheroes who do everything; it’s to raise up a church full of ministers.

An insidiously dangerous pattern is when staff start absorbing work that used to be led by volunteers. That’s not progress…it’s regression. It appears that they are helping, but that behavior hinders the church’s development. The flow should run the other way: what staff carry today should eventually be released to volunteers tomorrow. If you see staff pulling ministry back from lay leaders, they’re not empowering the church…they’re shrinking it.

Audit your ratio: total weekly attendance divided by full-time staff equivalents.
Measure volunteer engagement: what percentage of adults serve regularly?
Redefine job descriptions around multiplication, not execution.
Hire leaders who can build teams, not just talented doers.
Launch a leadership pipeline: train, empower, and release lay leaders into real authority.

Staff who insist on doing everything aren’t heroes, they’re bottlenecks.

Staff who reach for another hire instead of mobilizing volunteers aren’t scaling ministry, they’re slowing it down.

The Hard Truth and the Way Forward

Growth feels like success. But it’s often camouflage. Behind the buzz of full services and rising giving are the cracks: lost guests, shallow donor bases, families turned off, and staff stretched thin.

Unchecked growth is like a startup with booming revenue and no margin. It looks great on stage but collapses in real life.

The good news: every one of these issues is fixable. But only if leaders stop drinking their own Kool-Aid and start confronting the uncomfortable data.

Your action plan:

Run the numbers. Guest capture rate. Donor retention. Follow-up time. Kids ratios. Staffing leverage. Don’t estimate, measure.
Set targets. Pick benchmarks that force accountability. 60% guest capture. 24-hour follow-up. 80% room max. 70% serving adults. 100:1 staffing ratio.
Assign ownership. Someone on your team is responsible for each metric. Not “everybody.” One person.
Communicate urgency. To your board, staff, and congregation. Do not sugarcoat. Growth without health is a future crisis.
Invest accordingly. Budget for capacity where it matters: kids’ spaces, follow-up systems, volunteer training. Cut fluff.

Because this isn’t about numbers, it’s about people. Each metric represents individuals who either connected or didn’t, gave again or didn’t, felt welcomed or ignored. These aren’t “corporate KPIs,” they’re kingdom outcomes.

Growth is a gift. But it’s also a test. The question isn’t, “Are you growing?” It’s, “Are you stewarding growth in a way that sustains?”

Don’t let your church’s growth kill its future growth. Build the systems. Strengthen the foundation. Make the shift from tall middle schooler to varsity athlete. Learn the Flop.

**Pioneering Bilingual Multisite Ministry with Eric Garza** Oct 16, 2025

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by **Eric Garza**, Executive Pastor at **Cross Church** in Texas. Founded in 1995, Cross Church has grown into one of the fastest-growing churches in America, with 12 campuses across the Rio Grande Valley and beyond. With a unique focus on bilingual ministry, Cross Church is pioneering new models of multisite ministry in a predominantly Hispanic region.

Is your church wondering how to expand across languages, cultures, or campuses? Eric shares how Cross Church has embraced a centralized, bilingual multisite strategy that unites excellence with contextual flexibility.

**From one campus to twelve.** // In just over seven years, Cross Church expanded from its original location to 12 campuses. Seven campuses operate in English and five in Spanish, often sharing the same physical site. The church’s regional strategy ensures that within 20–30 minutes anywhere in the Rio Grande Valley, people can access a Cross Church service.

**Bilingual by design.** // Recognizing the area’s demographics, Cross Church offers identical ministry in both English and Spanish. Worship services follow the same structure, prayer is offered in both languages, and even discipleship classes are recorded and taught in both English and Spanish. Children’s ministry and Next Gen programming is primarily in English due to generational language preferences, but bilingual leaders ensure Spanish-speaking kids are fully included. This high bar of excellence across languages makes Cross Church one of the largest bilingual multisite ministries in the U.S.

**Centralized systems, local flexibility.** // Cross Church operates with a centralized model. Ministries like Cross Kids, worship, first impressions, and discipleship are standardized across all campuses, ensuring consistency in branding, curriculum, and training. Campuses then have freedom to contextualize through local outreach, such as citywide prayer walks or community celebrations. This balance allows Cross Church to maintain quality while adapting to the unique needs of each community.

**Unity across languages.** // In locations where English and Spanish congregations share a facility and pastors work together closely. They attend each other’s services, providing a pastoral presence, and ensure smooth transitions between the 10 a.m. English service and 12 p.m. Spanish service. This intentional collaboration prevents silos and reinforces unity across language lines.

**Discipleship through teams.** // Instead of small groups, Cross Church emphasizes serve teams as the primary environment for discipleship and connection. With large percentages of members serving, teams become relational communities where people feel connected in a big church. Midweek discipleship classes, offered in both languages, supplement these teams with biblical teaching and spiritual formation.

**Launching new services.** // When considering a new service, Cross Church follows a deliberate process: surveying leaders and congregants, canvassing communities, starting with worship nights, building leadership teams, and branding months in advance. They also watch practical metrics—such as when a sanctuary hits 70% capacity or when kids’ spaces overflow—before launching. And above all, they pray to discern if the timing is from God, not just a good idea.

**Looking ahead.** // Cross Church continues to expand, preparing for new campuses beyond South Texas. They’ve also launched the *360 Global Network* to share resources and lessons with other pastors and leaders, equipping churches to navigate growth, multisite challenges, and bilingual ministry in an increasingly multicultural America.

To learn more about Cross Church, visit crosschurchonline.com or follow @crosschurchrgv. You can also connect with Eric directly at @ericpgarza and explore resources at 360global.network

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone***

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, Rich here from the unSeminary podcast. Honored that you would tune in and listen today. Excited for this conversation. ah Literally this week, I had two conversations around what we’re talking about today with people ah who are wrestling with these issues. And I’m sure that many of you are wrestling with these as well. Honored to have another executive pastor. We love executive pastors at unSeminary.
Rich Birch — We’ve got Eric Garza. He is the executive pastor at Cross Church. They were founded in 1995. They’re located in Texas and is one of the fastest growing churches in the the country. I think they’ve got 12 campuses, if I’m counting correctly, which is incredible. Cross Church is in a predominantly Hispanic area and and is likely has one of the largest bilingual ministries in the country. Eric, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.
Eric Garza — Rich, thanks for the opportunity. Happy to be with you and happy to have this conversation.
Rich Birch — Wow, this is great. So obviously you guys have experienced incredible growth…

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and, um you know, amazing things going on there. Why don’t you kind of unpack the story a little bit? Tell us a little bit about what the ministry looks like today and then about your role of executive pastor of campuses specifically. I know that kind of looks different in all you every church, but tell us, talk us through that.
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Eric Garza — Yeah, well, you said it. 1995, almost 31 years ago, the church started. Senior pastors, Jaime and Rosemary Loya here in deep South Texas. So for context, ah we’re about 20 minutes north of the border with Mexico.

Rich Birch — Wow. Okay.
Eric Garza — So right on the bottom, ah deep South Texas, right on the tip of Texas. And so our our demographic is predominantly Hispanic, Latino.
Eric Garza — And we’re in a part of the country um that sometimes we’re we’re the last to receive news or information, although that’s changed recently with ah SpaceX here in the region and LNG and just a lot of economic growth.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, that’s good.
Eric Garza — Our church over the last, I would say five years, um we went from, well, let me backtrack. 2018 this way, we went from one location to now 12 locations.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s huge.
Eric Garza — So it’s been about a little over seven years where we went from one site where we had in San Benito, our main campus, our original location, and then expanded to the upper part of the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, then to the southern part of the valley. And then now, even in San Antonio, our first campus out of our our region.
Eric Garza — So we got ah seven English campuses and five Spanish campuses. And so it’s been a challenging, it’s beena challenging season, but it’s been a very rewarding season. And God has just enabled us to really break the mold of what local ministry looks like here in our region and expand beyond one site to multiple sites. And in the last, Rich, in the last 18 to 20 months, we’ve doubled in size as an organization.

Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing.

Eric Garza — And so that’s why Outreach Magazine, I believe this is the third or fourth time ah in recent years, have recognized it as one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And we’re just really blessed by that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Give us a sense of the the distance between those 12, like from the original location to the farthest. How does all that, what’s that look like?
Eric Garza — So right now in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas, within 20 to 30 minutes, you can be at a Cross Church location.
Rich Birch — Okay, that’s cool.
Eric Garza — So our our first campus was in the upper valley in the Mission area. That’s about a 35 minute drive from our original location. And then the other locations ah from our original site, they’re about 25 minutes or so, ah no more than half an hour.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, that’s great.
Eric Garza — So that’s why we say anywhere in the Rio Grande valley within 30 minutes ah max, you can be at a Cross Church location for for service.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love…
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — I love that. You know, one of the things that we’ve seen about multisite is even to the way you’re talking about it there, you know, it really is a regional strategy. It’s like, hHey, we’re trying to reach the Rio Grande Valley.

Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — This is a, you know, is a particular cultural ah milieu. It’s an area it’s like people are, you know, have a lot in common and I love that you’re, you’ve saturated that area. Well, multisite ministry looks different from in every context, you know, like multisite, there’s like a number of different ways to skin the cat.
Eric Garza — Sure.
Rich Birch — At 12 locations, you are in the rare minority. Last last I saw, 50% of multisite churches don’t get beyond three. It’s like single digit percentage get beyond 10. You know, at 12, you’re in the rare thin air. So I’d love to kind of hear what does multisite look like for you when you say you’re multisite, you know, seven English, five Spanish, what’s that look like?
Eric Garza — Yeah, so we got seven physical locations. And so so ah some of our locations double up. In other words, They have an English campus with their own English pastor, and then they have a Spanish congregation with their own Spanish pastor.
Eric Garza — And so ah it’s for us, we are the, I believe we’re the largest church in in deep South Texas. And you’re right. We kind of broke the mold expanding to multisite several years ago. Our pastor had that vision and desire to, the biggest thing is we wanted to go to where people are at instead of expecting people to come to us. And so our our vision is to raise up an army, to lead a spiritual revolution.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Eric Garza — And so we felt that in order to do that, we had to go into the communities where people are located instead of expecting them to come to us. And when we started doing that through multisite strategy and and campus ah campuses. Well, we just saw right our growth increase, we saw our reach increase, our influence in the region increase.
Eric Garza — And so for us, we are a Latino predominantly area. And so we have a lot of speaking Spanish people um that want a modern, contemporary non-denominational type of ministry that in our region really wasn’t available up until several years ago.
Eric Garza — And we were kind of the forefront, the pioneers of offering that. And then now that God has given us resources and abilities to really be at the cutting edge of providing ministry for the whole family and a lot of local churches are just not in a position to do that.

Eric Garza — And so we feel humbled, and we feel responsible, and we feel ah blessed that we get to go expand and do multisite with both reaching English speaking congregants, and then of course, diving into making sure that we cannot ignore, especially in our region, a predominantly Hispanic, excuse me, Spanish speaking, a demographic.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. What do what do you hold in common between the campuses? What like what does teaching look like? What does um ah you know music, kids ministry, that sort of thing?
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And compare and contrast, you know both English and Latino, Spanish you know Spanish speaking, what does that look like? How do you how’s all that work together?
Eric Garza — So our our services, our service formats, whether it’s in English or Spanish, are very much similar and identical. The only difference is the language.
Rich Birch — Okay. Okay.
Eric Garza — And so we’ll have worship set lists. The songs may vary differently, but as far as the structure of the service, the ministry we offer, whatever we offer in English, we offer in Spanish. Next Gen, pastoral care, prayer, first impressions, Cross kids, kids ministry, whatever whatever we offer in English, we offer in in Spanish.
Eric Garza — And so for us, we’ve we’ve really been adamant about centralizing all of our ministries and our systems to where every campus location pretty much looks the same. The building might be different. The size might be different. The size of the congregation might be different. But as far as the ministry apparatus, it’s identical. Whatever you see in one location, you’re going to see at another location.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Eric Garza — And so when we launch campuses and when we launch services, we do so ah first making sure that we’re going to be able to provide as excellent a ministry as possible. And so for us, we offer the same, just just just in different languages.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Eric Garza — And so you’re not going to go to one location in one part of the valley. And then go to a different location in a different part of the valley and experience different teams or different structure or different layouts or different branding.
Rich Birch — Right.
Eric Garza — You’re going to see very much the exact same stuff.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. And and that’s, um you know, as a commentary friends that are listening in, yeah know, I’ve been involved in multisite for a long time, 20, almost 25 years. And early on, there was a lot of debate around, um like, should we have lots of local contextualization, like as in, you know, from one campus that’s 25 minutes away from another, like how different should it be or how common should it be?
Rich Birch — And for sure, we’ve seen over the last two decades that churches like Cross Church that are really trying to focus more on what do we have in common rather than, hey, let’s try to do a whole bunch of things different at all the various locations really are are prevailing in this model, in this approach.
Eric Garza — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, so for us, that’s that’s great. For us, what we do is, like I said, the ministry we provide is identical across the board. But campuses do have a little bit of local autonomy in this regard.
Rich Birch — Sure.
Eric Garza — Maybe their community that they’re in is doing a citywide prayer walk or they’re doing a, ah you know, an Independence Day celebration that another community might not be doing. They have the the opportunity to dive into a local context that may pertain to that campus that another another city may not be having a similar or same event. So that other campus may not be doing it.
Eric Garza — So they do have, especially with our community engagement endeavors, if something is happening in their community that that we can be a part of and that we want to be a part of, then we’ll allow the local campus to make that call and do so.

Rich Birch — Sure.
Eric Garza — And then when we do like baptisms or child dedications, we’ll do them all on the same weekend. But then the local campus might say, hey, our campus will do it Saturday morning.

Rich Birch — Right.

Eric Garza — And then another campus will say, we’ll do it the same day, but we’ll do it Saturday afternoon…

Rich Birch — Okay.

Eric Garza — …or we’ll do it Sunday after. So in other words, we try to have a calendar where everybody is synced up. That way we can tell the everybody, hey, no matter what location you’re at this weekend, we’re going to offer water baptisms.

Rich Birch — Good.
Eric Garza — But then we tell them, go to our social media or at your local campus, they’ll give you further details as to the time of those baptisms. So there is some local contextualization with community engagement…
Rich Birch — Sure.
Eric Garza — …with because not every community is created equal. Our ministry is similar across the board. It’s identical. But then the local context does play a part. And so the campuses do have to be a little bit flexible with with that.
Rich Birch — Okay, help us understand, you know, you’re leading the way really here, ah particularly on, um you know, having services both in English and in Spanish, really reaching and discipling people across language and cultural lines. I think this is an area, this is the thing where I said I had multiple conversations about this this week.
Rich Birch — I think growing church in the country is is asking this question. Every zip code is more multicultural, multi-ethnic today than it was 10 years ago, and it will be more multicultural, multi-ethnic 10 years from now. That’s just true. And so we’re all trying to figure out this question, but I think, frankly, a lot of churches have struggled with this.
Rich Birch — So unpack that a little bit. how What are you learning? How are you keeping these things aligned? How are you working? You know, I’m sure it’s easy. I’m sure there’s no problems, but talk us through what you’re learning on that front.
Eric Garza — Okay. Yeah. Wishful thinking, wishful thinking, my man. That is, yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah, talk us about that.
Eric Garza — So for us, there’s been a lot of trial and error, right?
Rich Birch — Okay.
Eric Garza — We say we have a great system, but it’s not a perfect system.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Eric Garza — And as you grow and expand, you’re going to have to adapt and tweak some things in your current system. And then some systems that serve you in one season don’t serve you in another season. So a system that served us with four or five locations doesn’t serve us with six or seven or 10 or more, right? And so you have to adjust yourself.
Eric Garza — So for us, um the then you know millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, those are the ones that, even though they may come from a Spanish background, are English speakers. So you’re going to see a lot of that English ministry.
Eric Garza — In fact, even in our Spanish congregations, though we offer Spanish ministry across the board, you’ll notice or will notice that our next gen, a vast majority of them, I mean, 85, 90% plus are English speakers. And so we’re not going to do everything, you know, 50/50 bilingual. We’re going to do things that are going to help reach a demographic and reach people across the age spectrum, ah giving them their specific ministry and their required or or preferred language.
Eric Garza — And so for us, how do you do multisite ministry in a bilingual context? If you know something that we don’t, please tell us, because we’ve we’ve grown to adapt this in our context, Rich. There is, to our to our knowledge, no ah thriving ministry in America that sets a precedent for how to do multisite bilingual ministry.

Rich Birch — I would agree.
Eric Garza — We’re pretty much the trailblazers here. Our senior pastor, our our executive team, our our church, and in really pioneering what this looks like. And so that’s why I say, some things we’ve tried that haven’t worked. You know, when do you offer service times? When do Spanish speaking people prefer a Sunday service? English speakers? And so we’ve tried different things and we’ve just learned over the years what’s worked for us and what hasn’t worked for us. And again, it’s been through through a lot of prayer, through a lot of ah trial and error and figuring things out as we go.
Eric Garza — Now, we have learned from other ministries, of course, that there’s wisdom in that. But in our context, reaching a predominantly ah Latino area and where you have a dual language demographic, that has been a challenge that we’ve really… And here’s the thing: we’ve become really good at it because we have a lot of our pastors and teaching pastors and speakers are bilingual, myself included.
Rich Birch — Right.
Eric Garza — So our senior pastor, phenomenal. The man will preach bilingual and translate himself live on stage.
Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.
Eric Garza — That’s is that he’s got a gift.
Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredible.
Eric Garza — He’s a phenomenal pastor, a phenomenal leader. And a lot of our our pastors, our campus pastors are bilingual.

Rich Birch — Right.
Eric Garza — And so they’re able to flow in that dynamic that is attractive to families. It doesn’t slow things down and it gives them a greater footing in their community, being able to connect with dual language ah ah people.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s that’s incredible. I was going to ask the kind of, is there like a profile difference between people that are attending the English and Spanish services? Maybe you could unpack that a little bit more. In the Spanish services, are you doing, I can understand within the service, that makes sense.
Rich Birch — But are you also doing Spanish kids ministry associated with that? Or is it English? Because I know some churches that will do, they’ll offer like a Spanish service in another room kind of thing, but then they’re sharing a shared English kids ministry. Talk us through kind of what is the the difference in the communities kind of double click on that on that uh you know that those dynamics.
Eric Garza — Yeah, so it’s a wide – great question. It’s a wide spectrum, right? ah different You’re have guests and ah and congregants from you know different socioeconomic backgrounds, different income levels ah in both services.

Rich Birch — yep.
Eric Garza — And in one campus, you might have more of one one specific socioeconomic background than another campus. When it comes to kids, for example, kids ministry, at our Spanish service, we will still offer kids ministry in English because like I said, really the next gen and and and kids, you know, between the ages of really, you know, it infants and adolescents all the way to to high school, teenage years and beyond, young adults are English speakers. So we’ll have a Spanish service going on in the main sanctuary. And in kids ministry, it’ll be in English, with this caveat.
Eric Garza — We fully understand that there might be some Spanish speaking only kids that attend. And that’s perfectly fine. We’re prepared for that.
Rich Birch — Yep. Right. Okay.
Eric Garza — So we’ll have bilingual teachers, bilingual staffers, ah coordinators that are part of our kids ministry that, should that occur, they’re going to get exactly the same. We don’t water down.
Eric Garza — Our curriculum is in Spanish. Our videos are in Spanish. We’ll have teachers that will speak to kids in Spanish including with special needs, right?

Rich Birch — Wow.

Eric Garza — And so there’s, we do our absolute best to ensure that we provide as excellent a ministry as possible to every, without, and I use the word watering down, with but, you know, I hope you get the the sense of what I’m trying to say…

Rich Birch — I understand. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Garza — …without minimizing the impact and the quality of experience or teaching that they’re going to get.
Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s incredible. I love that. That’s, uh, Yeah, you’ve you’ve set a high bar in a in a really great, beautiful way, um you know, to to make that happen.

Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Let’s double click on this again. You kind of already touched on this, but I’d love to circle back on the alignment and, you know, and autonomy issue.

Eric Garza — Sure.

Rich Birch — So, you know, the most, um we’ll call them single language, multisite churches, they struggle with this issue. You know, that this is like it’s a constant kind of battle. How do how much alignment, how much autonomy do we give locations? But then you’ve added this extra layer of multiple languages.
Rich Birch — And so talk us through how you think about that. How do you work on alignment? How do you work on autonomy? I get the idea local kind of outreach community service stuff. That makes sense. But what else does, how else does that work itself out for you?
Eric Garza — So we are a centralized ah ministry organization. And so what I mean by that is um every campus will have a kids leader and those kids leaders have a line to the central kids pastor or kids director. And so the central team is basically this central will set the systems. Campuses will execute those systems.
Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. Great.
Eric Garza — So Cross Kids central department, right, our kids central department, Cross Kids because that’s the name of our church, um they will set the curriculum, they will set the lesson plans, they will set the videos that are going to be shown, ah the theme for that Sunday or for that month, and then the local campuses will execute.
Eric Garza — Central will provide the training to all of our kids leaders and teachers and staff and personnel. The same. So every every kid’s team at every campus will get the exact same training from the central director from the central department. Same with next steps, first impressions, worship. And so our alignment is very centralized.
Eric Garza — In other words, as far as our ministry systems are concerned. Even our finances, even our our our our our marketing. Our marketing, we do central, but then we also allow our local campuses to do different things based on one campus might be having a business breakfast with local business leaders that another campus is not. So their local marketing might look different. So we’re very centralized. And then the autonomy that we give is just that local context ministry.
Rich Birch — Right, okay.
Eric Garza — What is your community doing that we’re not doing? And so when we plant a campus, you’re going to get the same branding, you’re going to get the same banners, you’re going to get the same logos, you’re going to get the same signage, you’re going to get the same teams that any campus would have, regardless whether you’re a 200 member campus or you’re a 2000. We have both of those. We have that wide a spectrum of campus sizes. They’re going to get the same materials and branding and resourcing.
Eric Garza — And so we’re very centralized. And then the local autonomy is just based on local context when it comes to engagement, to outreach, to reaching a local demographic or or something that might be a little bit different. And that’s the way we found, Rich, that allows us to ensure that number one, we’re providing as excellent a ministry as possible across the board at any location. We wanna be able to tell people No matter what location you go to, what cross location you’re at, you’re going to get a great experience, a very similar experience. And we’ve over the years found that to be true.
Eric Garza — People love going to our Brownsville location. People love going to our Mission, Texas location. People like going to our Bay Area location because they found they’re not getting a different experience that they would at the original site from, you know, years ago. And so there’s people now that are part of our church, they’re members of our church who’ve never stepped foot in our original location. They’ve never stepped foot in other locations.
Eric Garza — They’re just so adamant about their local Cross Church location, and they’re getting the exact same quality that they would at the original location. So I hope that answer is right. It’s we’re very centralized systematically, but then there is some local autonomy where a campus pastor might make some decisions based on his or her local context that another campus might not.
Rich Birch — So this is like a super detailed church wonk question um at the level of at a campus level, um even this the way you you kind of set it up, we’ve got 12 locations. You talk about them all as campuses, but they’re really they’re sharing physical locations, if I’m if I’m correct.
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — So how do the campus pastors who are sharing a physical location, English campus pastor, Spanish campus pastor, how do they relate to each other and in in that, you know, that location? what What does that look like for them?
Eric Garza — Yeah, great question. And so one of our core values is unity. And so we always try to instill that across the board, especially in that kind of situation where it’s one physical location, but you have two two congregations, one English, one Spanish. So the English will have their us English pastor and the Spanish will have their Spanish pastor.

Eric Garza — And so the way we train our pastors and our our our top level leaders is this. We’re one team. Right? And so we’re not, you know, we don’t come with the attitude of, well, I’m just, I just do English and I don’t do Spanish. Right? Or I just do so do Spanish and I don’t do English. And that’s, and that’s perfectly fine in the sense that we understand you have a responsibility to serve your service. But at the same time, we believe that teams should help each other out.

Rich Birch — yeah.
Eric Garza — And so for example, we have a 10 o’clock English service at at our locations and then locations have a twelve… That’s the other thing. Our service times are the same at every location. 10 o’clock in English. And then those that have Spanish, it’s 12 p.m. on Sundays in Spanish.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.
Eric Garza — So the teams will transition out. The Spanish has the exact same teams that the English does.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Eric Garza — And so they’ll transition out between services to make sure that everything that the Spanish service is equipped and that the English service transitions well into Spanish. So basically, English service will be the first ones there on Sundays. And then Spanish will be the team that leaves in the afternoon on Sundays. And so those two pastors have to work very much in in in tandem with each other.
Eric Garza — Hey, here’s what’s happened first service. Don’t forget about this. Or here’s what happened in the building the first service. Be aware of this. They both attend both each other’s service, right? It’s not, hey, my I’m done and I’m out of here.
Rich Birch — Right, yeah, yeah.
Eric Garza — No, they’re there to equip each other, to support each other, to help each other, to back each other up, to provide a stronger pastoral presence. And so they have the responsibility, but they’re not entirely siloed. In other words, where they abdicate responsibility and helping each other out. No, it’s a very pastoral structure where we help each other out and we’re there the entire Sunday to back each other up and to provide pastoral presence.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s that’s fantastic. Like, ah yeah, you’re you’re doing something really unique here and it’s it’s fun to kind of get a chance to dig around in it. Thanks for letting ask some of those, ah you know, detailed questions.
Eric Garza — Oh, absolutely. And we’re still learning, right? We’re we’re still learning as we go.
Rich Birch — Oh, yeah, for sure.
Eric Garza — Yeah. And as challenges and situations come up, up we’ll figure them out as they come, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah. You talked about um earlier, you met you said the we the the phrase, hey, we’ve got a great system, but not a perfect system.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And that does, it’s interesting, I’m working on this book um ah about breaking the 2000 barrier for churches. And one of the interesting things we’ve seen as I talk with church leaders who have done that is there’s this idea that under 2000, churches are trying lots of different things.
Rich Birch — But then eventually you get to the point where you’re like, yeah, there’s like lots of different ways to do this, but this is the way we’re going to do it. Like, this is, you know, this is kind of our thing.
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And we’re not even convinced. It’s just like our approach. It’s fine. Like, we’re not hung up on it.
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — What would be ah some adjustments to the systems that you’ve made over the years to try to improve to, you know, some changes, you’ve maybe dropped some stuff or added some stuff to try to um you know, push the thing forward? What would be one of those or a couple of those that you could, you could think through?
Eric Garza — Yeah, um as I’m thinking about it, as you’re asking the question, ‘m thinking back to a couple of our campuses that underwent some building renovations and building projects to create more space.
Eric Garza — And so it used to be that we could host our our membership courses or membership classes in a small space. And as the campus grew that space, we outgrew that space or that meeting room or whatever.
Rich Birch — Right. That’s great. Yeah.
Eric Garza — And so our our system, let me put it, let me put it this way. Let’s just say that our next step system, all of our first time guests get a ah blue bag with their gift, right?
Rich Birch — Yep.
Eric Garza — Well, That’s the system that every campus has to do. What every campus can do differently is perhaps what exit they’re going to have their station at…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Eric Garza — …or their next steps room at or where they’re going to host it. And so for us, the systems have had to be adapted as we’ve grown. And that’s what I mean. They’re not perfect systems because sometimes things happen that are out of your control. You plan for 15 and 22 show up, or 30 show up or 30 RSVP and only, you know, 17 show up. And so they’re not perfect systems in the way that they’re concrete and they’re cookie cutter in the sense that we can’t maneuver or or rework them to meet the demand of the local campus.
Eric Garza — And so our systems are are the same, but the local implementation of those systems may vary campus to campus. Instead of using one mobile TV, you’re using ah an LED screen, right? because your your your spacing is different.
Rich Birch — Sure, sure.
Eric Garza — But you’re still teaching the same stuff. It’s the same books. It’s the same materials, same resources. And so as we’ve grown, Rich, from, you know, multi site and adding more and we’ll continue to add more into 2026 beyond. We’re obviously constantly evaluating our systems, right? Does this membership system fit, you know, for where we want to head, where we want to go? Does our Cross Kids curriculum, is it replicable across this so across the board to even more campuses?
Eric Garza — Our current systems, do they, now that we’re expanding even out of the Rio Grande Valley and deep South Texas to other regions, San Antonio and beyond, does how we do ministry in this region need to change how we do ministry in a different region.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Eric Garza — And so we’re constantly evaluating and tweaking. And then, like I said earlier, what system served us in one season, you know, they’re not sacred cows or they’re not sacred, you know, things.
Rich Birch — Sure.
Eric Garza — And as you’re right, as long as it’s not sin and it’s not anti-biblical or scriptural, yeah you can change things, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, 100%.
Eric Garza — Nothing nothing beyond the word of God is sacred…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Eric Garza — …and in this in the in the context of this conversation, right?
Rich Birch — Yes.
Eric Garza — And so we’re always thinking, hey, does what we do in in this region, does it need to shift or change for the next region that we want to be in? And so that’s what I mean.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Eric Garza — They’re not perfect because they’re led by and they’re implemented by imperfect people. And so all of that, right, as we go multisite and expand, man, we’re constantly thinking about all those thoughts, ah perusing through our minds and our meetings, and how do we get better at what we’re currently doing?
Rich Birch — Yeah, this fantastic. So is there a difference or a kind of compare and contrast the discipleship pathway between English and Spanish is, you know, like you talked about, like, so you know, someone’s coming, they’re getting a gift and some sort of new here thing. And then, you know, you’re trying to get them connected to teams and groups somehow, I’m assuming. And, you know, then we’re hoping that they take these steps to kind of grow in their relationship with Jesus.
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — What does that look like? And are you bilingual at at that level as well? Like are the right to the, you know small groups and all that stuff and talk us through all, what does all that look like that side of what’s going on across?
Eric Garza — Yeah. So for us, we currently don’t have small groups at our church. We have serve teams.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Eric Garza — And so we push, ah we highly encourage people into our serve teams.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Eric Garza — And a large percentage of our church is involved in serve teams.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Eric Garza — And so that becomes kind of their church family, their church group.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Eric Garza — We’ve found that people have often said, man, we’re so we’re such a large church, but we feel so connected because we’re on teams. And so in their local context, people form those relationships.
Eric Garza — Yeah, our discipleship is bilingual. So for example, when we do Wednesday night discipleship classes or Bible studies, us English will meet in one room and Spanish will meet in another space. And but it’ll be the exact same teaching. So, for example, I’ll use myself as an example. When I record the content for discipleship, I’ll record the exact same content in English…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.
Eric Garza — …and then I’ll record it in Spanish.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Eric Garza — So that evening or that Wednesday night, right? Those seven English congregations are getting their set, their English discipleship teaching. Let’s say we’re talking about gifts of the Holy Spirit. Spanish is going to get the same exact teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, just in Spanish.
Rich Birch — That’s fantastic.
Eric Garza — And so that’s why, Rich, we’ve, we’ve been so blessed and, and we’ve had to work at this…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Eric Garza — …where as best as we can. Now, not everything, right, not a hundred percent bilingual. But as best as we can, we want to offer what we do in English, we want to offer it in Spanish and then vice versa.
Eric Garza — Maybe Spanish has a great idea that we’ve never done in English. We want to see if we can explore doing that in the English as well.
Eric Garza — So we do our very best. And I say nine out of ten – 90, 95% of the time, everything we do, we’re doing it in both languages to accommodate and to serve. We’re not trying to please one congregation over the other. I think when you’re trying to please people, that’s when you get into some trouble and you get into some pressure you were never meant to have. We’re trying to serve the congregations as best as we possibly can. And I believe our growth has spoken volumes of, like I said, hey, it’s been impactful and it’s worked for us. Not perfect systems, but they’re very efficient and excellent systems.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I love that. Years ago, I had Derwin Gray on the podcast and we were talking about multicultural, you know, how our churches should, you know, continue to pursue multiculturalism and and become, you know reflect our community. And, you know, I was coming at it from like, a hey, like our churches should represent, they should, when you walk into our church, it should look like the community we’re in.
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And he totally called me out on the podcast, and was like, Rich, like you could need to think about a bigger thought. This isn’t about some marketing trick. This is the kingdom of Christ. It’s like the, you know, every tribe tongue is represented, should be represented in our church. And I love what you’re doing to try to make, to operationalize that, to try to, how do we actually make that happen in our our context? I think it’s you know I think it’s I think it’s amazing.
Eric Garza — Yeah.
Rich Birch — It’s it’s incredible. Well, if there’s leaders that are listening in today that are thinking, hey, we we are thinking about we might need should add a second language service experience, or we we should maybe we have that at one location we should be thinking about doing that at multiple locations what would be some of the first steps that you would encourage someone to take say in the next month maybe two months what would be some of those first steps?
Eric Garza — Yeah. Great question. As a matter of fact, we’re actually in that exact scenario with one of our campuses right now…

Rich Birch — Oh nice.

Eric Garza — …that is only they’ve only been an English campus since their since their launch, since their start. But the community they’re in now, they’re reaching, you know, they’re getting interest from from Spanish speaking, you know, residents.
Eric Garza — And so we we don’t launch a second service from one month to the next. Right? It goes through a series of months before. So we do market research. We do surveys. I’ll give you an example. Last month in August, on one of the Sundays, one of our campuses, their Spanish service, they need to go to a second Spanish service because their Spanish congregation there has grown.
Eric Garza — So we did a community, we did a congregational survey, right? We asked our team, right? Because those are the ones that have the biggest buy-in is your team and your leaders. You know, between these two or three service times, which one would you prefer?
Eric Garza — And then we ask the congregation, hey, there’s going to be service available. Would you help us out and answer that survey? Just let us. It’s a one question survey. Just say if we had to open a second Spanish service. What time do you believe? Is that 2 p.m., 6 p.m.? Is it Saturday? What what what service? What does that look like?

Eric Garza — And then at the campus where I say we’re actually going through that scenario, So they’re going to launch a Spanish service, I believe, in December. So we’re still about three months away from that. But they already started a couple of months ago with worship nights…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great.

Eric Garza — …with ah canvassing the community, with starting marketing in Spanish, getting the names the church’s recognition out there in a Spanish context, meeting with local stakeholders, meeting with people in the in the congregation. And then here’s the thing. Because it’s a different service in a different language, we also have to build a leadership team that’s going to serve that congregation in Spanish.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Eric Garza — So right now we’re identifying candidates for leadership. We’re training our our executive Spanish pastor for the church is training leaders, identifying families. So that by the time we launch that second service, we have a leadership team in place. We’ve had several months of branding. We’ve had, we know what the community is saying to us. We’ve asked them through surveys, through conversations, through local events.
Eric Garza — So by the time we open, and then we have families that are going to commit to being part of that service, worship teams, kids, teachers. I’m the, across the board, by the time we launch it, uh, we’re pretty much in place to sustain it.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Eric Garza — And so what happens is if, if if there’s pastors or leaders who, it’s not, hey, we’re growing, we’re expanding, right? Statistically, if a service is 70% full, ah then you can launch a second service. A lot of people say, well, yeah I still got empty seats. Yeah, but your kid’s ministry might not.
Rich Birch — Or parking or some other area. Yeah.
Eric Garza — And so a lot of pastors, a lot of pastors consider, well, we’re not ready for a second service because perhaps they’re only contextualizing that decision based on empty seats in the sanctuary without realizing your kids space may already be overcrowded. Your nursery is overcrowded. You got, and so you got to consider. So when your sanctuary attendance is at 70% or higher, ah you’re probably in a good spot to consider opening a second service, regardless of the language.
Eric Garza — In our context, opening a second service, we do a lot of back-end work. We do a lot of due diligence ah before but before we open the service.
Rich Birch — Yeah, love that.
Eric Garza — And then once we do a month, a month and a half leading up to it, we start promoting that service time so that people can become acclimated and aware that there’s a new service time in their community at our campus, at our church, and and they can be a part of that.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good.

Eric Garza — So a lot of front-end work, but then a lot of it’s a process. It doesn’t happen from one month to the next. And then, of course, I would be remiss if I didn’t say, we also pray about it. Is God leading us in that direction?
Rich Birch — Right, what’s he telling us to do?
Eric Garza — Because just because it’s ah it’s a good thing doesn’t mean it’s a God thing, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah. True, true. Yep.
Eric Garza — And so even in in the context of ministry, even in us as a multisite bilingual ministry, which I believe we’re the largest in the country, we’re very adamant that, hey, we want to do systematic, but we want to make sure that this is a God thing for our church or for that campus um before making the final decision.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. And, you know, a couple things I want to underline there for our listeners. I love that you start with listening to your people.

Eric Garza — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know, you’re surveying, but it’s like, hey, let’s let’s get out and have some conversations, whether that’s through survey or, you know, focus groups or just listening…

Eric Garza — Right.

Rich Birch — …you know, get 10 leaders in a room, have have some conversations.

Eric Garza — Right.

Rich Birch — Because I think sometimes as leaders, we can get in our ivory tower somewhere and we’re like, we think this is what we should do. And it’s like, well, maybe we should actually talk with the people we’re trying to serve.
Eric Garza — Right. Well, and and you have to, I didn’t i didn’t mean to interrupt you.
Rich Birch — No, no, it’s fine.
Eric Garza — And and you had you have to talk with the leaders because they’re the ones that are going to be helping you execute the ministry.
Rich Birch — 100%. 100%.
Eric Garza — And if they’re not, if if you don’t have a ah good segment of them on board, you’re going to have a difficult time getting that service off the ground.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah, it’s great. Okay. And then the other thing was, I love that you’re, there’s like the decision to launch and then that sets off a whole bunch of other actions. Like if you cannot just like pull the trigger and be like, okay, we’re doing this in two weeks. Like we got to work, we got to get ready for that.
Eric Garza — Right.

Rich Birch — We got to actually, it’s the difference between starting that service and launching it. Like where we really want to push it forward and um you know, do it well. So love that.

Rich Birch — So, all right. Well, as we’re wrapping up today’s episode, anything else you’d love to share, ah you know, kind of final parting words to leaders who are listening in today?

Eric Garza — Well, Rich, thanks for the opportunity, man. I’m very grateful just to get to share. Our church, we we believe we’re in a season of of just growth and expansion really across the country. And our senior leadership, our senior pastor is very adamant about pouring into other churches and other pastors and leaders. In fact, he just recently launched a brand new um ah organization, the 360 Global Network that’s available.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Eric Garza — You can go to 360global.network and we’re in a season and he’s in a season where he now wants to pour into other pastors and leaders.
Rich Birch — So good.
Eric Garza — And God has given us so much resource and so much wisdom. And ah it’s now a our responsibility and our desire to equip other pastors and leaders where they don’t have to face some of the pitfalls that we faced early on as we expanded and grew and serve and serve more people.
Eric Garza — And as the demographic of our country continues to shift and change. And you have the Hispanic community just really growing in throngs and and thriving. Bilingual ministry, we believe, is going to become a key factor in how the church operates in different communities in the country.
Rich Birch — 100%. Yeah, 100%.
Eric Garza — And so anything we can do, please reach out to us. We’re more than happy to provide resources. You can be part of the network. You can be part of what God is doing. And ah man, it would just be our pleasure ah to help serve pastors and leaders around the country where it’s more blessed to give than to receive. And so we want to be a blessing to the body of Christ at large.
Rich Birch — That’s great. Love that. So again, that’s just 360 global – so the numbers, 360global.network. You should check that out.
Eric Garza — Correct.
Rich Birch — A great resource, lots of, you know, stuff going on there. You can chase that down ah more and learn about that. Well, I really appreciate you being here today, Eric. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Eric Garza — Yeah, you can go to social media, @crosschurchrgv or crosschurchonline.com. And if I can be a resource to anybody, it would be my heart and blessing to be able to do so. It’s @ericpgarza on Instagram, social media. Man, thanks for the opportunity, Rich. Very, very blessed by our conversation.
Rich Birch — Thank you. Thanks for being here today.

**The Future of Large Churches: Early Findings from the 2025 Survey with Warren Bird** Oct 09, 2025

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by **Dr. Warren Bird**—author, researcher, and one of the most trusted voices in church leadership studies. Warren has co-authored over 35 books for pastors and church leaders, including *Hero Maker*, *Better Together*, *Next*, *Resilience Factor*, and his newest, *Becoming a Future-Ready Church*. Known for his deep data-driven insights, Warren has spent decades researching trends that shape healthy, growing churches.

What’s next for large churches in North America—and how are they shaping the future of ministry? How are they adapting after the pandemic? Are they thriving, struggling, or transforming in unexpected ways? Warren shares early findings from his newest national research study—*The Large Church Survey 2025*—which explores how churches of 1,000 or more are changing and what’s coming next for the future of the church.

**Exploring large church health.** // Large churches have reshaped the landscape of ministry over the last fifty years. Yet following the pandemic, questions have emerged: Have they fully come back? Are they still growing disciples—or just attracting crowds? Warren’s latest study, available at bit.ly/largechurch2025, is designed to answer those questions by gathering data from churches with 1,000+ in-person attendance. The goal is to measure growth, transparency, discipleship, and community impact in a post-pandemic world.

**Cultural distrust of institutions.** // Warren notes that many people today are skeptical of large organizations, including churches. Scandals, media coverage, and declining trust in institutions have fueled the perception that “big” means “impersonal” or “unaccountable.” Yet Warren argues that healthy large churches can be powerful forces for good—offering specialized ministries such as special needs programs, counseling centers, and community partnerships that smaller churches often can’t sustain.

**Early findings: community and young adults.** // Although data collection is still underway, some surprising trends are already emerging. The second-highest area of growth since the pandemic has been churches’ service and impact on their local communities. Large churches are not retreating—they’re doubling down on outreach. Even more encouraging, the top area of growth is the spiritual response among young adults. Despite common myths, many large churches are seeing renewed engagement from people in their 20s and 30s who are hungry for spiritual depth and authentic community.

**The power of small groups.** // One consistent trend across every five-year survey Warren has conducted since 2000 is the growing emphasis on small groups and teams. In the most recent data, 92% of churches give their highest priority to small groups as essential for discipleship and connection. Warren summarizes the insight simply: “You get bigger by getting smaller.” Large churches thrive when they help people move from rows to circles—building relational environments where faith grows deeper.

**Raising leaders from within.** // Another major finding centers on leadership development. Among churches of 5,000 and larger, 92% report having a residency, internship, or formal leadership training program. The median number of participants per church is 15. This suggests that future pastors, missionaries, and ministry leaders are increasingly being raised up inside the local church rather than emerging solely from seminaries. Warren calls this a promising trend that could strengthen the next generation of church leadership.

**Comeback stories.** // The data also reveals a surprising recovery among large churches. So far, 53% of churches with attendance over 2,000 report being at least 10% larger today than they were in 2019. Some have even doubled or tripled in size. At the same time, a smaller group continues to struggle to regain momentum—creating what Warren describes as a “K-shaped recovery” across the church landscape. These insights will help leaders benchmark where their church stands and how to plan for the future.

**A younger generation of leaders.** // Contrary to the myth that megachurches are a baby boomer phenomenon, early data shows that the average senior pastor age has actually declined since the last survey. Many fast-growing churches are being led by a younger generation of pastors—some who planted their congregations and others who revitalized long-standing churches.

To participate in the *Large Church Survey 2025* and receive the full results, visit bit.ly/largechurch2025. The survey takes about 20 minutes and is open until **November 11, 2025**. For more on Warren’s work, follow him on LinkedIn or explore his latest book *Becoming a Future-Ready Church* to stay ahead of emerging ministry trends.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe***

Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward.

Check them out at Risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help.

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We are honored to have a guest with us, Dr. Warren Bird today, who, what can I say about Warren Bird? He has co-authored 35 books for church leaders, but it’s more that, not that he’s just written a bunch of books. These are a number of the books that from my perspective are like the go-tos on their topic.
Rich Birch — *Hero Maker* on leadership development, *Better Together* on healthy mergers, *Next* on pastoral succession, ah *Resilience Factor* on effective leadership teams. And his latest is incredible: *Becoming a Future-Ready Church* on these eight emerging church trends. He’s not only an author but he’s also a researcher and the work that he produces, I think, is among the best that’s out there. His background is a pastor, seminary professor. He was a research director at Leadership Network and was the executive vice president of research at ECFA, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.
Rich Birch — Warren, I am so glad to have you here. He’s also, one of the distinctions Warren has is he’s one of the few people that I’ve said, anytime you want to come on the podcast, you come on, we’ll make space. And so he reached out. Happy to have Warren on. Welcome. So glad you’re here.
Warren Bird — Wow, Rich, you just rattled all that off. It’s like my life story. I could do that for you because you are so articulate and and the impact you’ve had on me. I listen to your podcast very regularly. The consulting insights when I you and I are sharing a speaking platform and all. So I could have done the same thing for you, but thank you for having me.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s kind of you. That’s kind of you to say that. And today we’re talking, you’re in the midst of one of the things I love about Warren, and and you might know this if you bump into him at a conference, he’s always working on some project. And he’s always wants to pick your brain about, Hey, like I’m working on this thing, got this thing coming up. And we were at a conference recently and he was talking about his latest research project. And so why don’t you talk to us about the study that you’re currently engaged in?
Rich Birch — And friends, I want you to stay tuned because we’re going I’m going to try to pull some early results out of Warren. This is the first place that some of these results have been talked about. So you’re getting an exclusive here, which is great, or a first because you’re listening in today. But what is this study that you’re working on?
Warren Bird — So Rich, the world of large churches—let’s let’s just say in-person attendance of a thousand and higher—you know, that was a big change in the face of the North American, actually the global church, the rise of the large church in the last 50 or so years. But now we’ve had the pandemic where large churches were hit the hardest, unless you were in like Florida or Texas, where they didn’t even participate in the pandemic. But the rest of us got hit hard.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Warren Bird — And and the question is, have they come back? And if they’ve come back, are they different? And then there’s that growing skepticism of, well, are big churches actually an asset or a liability? To what extent do they actually make their communities better? To what extent are they really healthy and vital versus, you know, are, are they an inch deep and a mile wide?
Warren Bird — What’s the level of financial transparency? I mean, you, you, you look at, you listen to ah headlines in the media and then they always have adjectives in front of the word megachurch, like rich megachurch or or something a even more disparaging. Well, how, how “rich” are they?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Warren Bird — Do people give more because they go to a larger church and more important, you know, what’s the level of transparency and discipleship that’s there? And, and fundamentally what’s the bar of discipleship and, and what are churches who are exploding with growth, in particular, are they giving out free coffee or are, are they giving out Jesus in a way that’s resonating with the population around them?

Warren Bird — So it’s it’s time to explore and to say, well, what’s happening? And the best way to do it, i mean, we hang out at conferences, Rich, because I don’t want to just ask questions out of the top of my mind. I want to know what people want to know about their world, their peers.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Warren Bird — And I can put that in a question and find out from a bunch of churches and then come back to you and say, well, here’s the lay of the land. And more importantly, here’s what seems to be around the next corner…
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Warren Bird — …for churches that they are anticipating.

Rich Birch — Yes.
Warren Bird — Can you tell I’m excited about this project?

Rich Birch — Yeah, I was going to…

Warren Bird — Bit.ly/largechurch2025
Rich Birch — Great. that’s the That’s the link. We’re driving towards that today, friends. And you’re looking particularly for churches over a thousand is the is the kind of the…

Warren Bird — In-person attendance, yes.

Rich Birch — In in-person attendance.
Warren Bird — And that’s adults and children, all your campuses, every nose that’s there on it on a given weekend. You know, is it somewhere around 1,000 to up to 100,000? And it’s…
Rich Birch — All those people over a hundred thousand were asking you not to participate. Yeah, that’s great. That’s so, this is good.
Warren Bird — Well, that’s another story. Yeah I just interviewed the pastor of Africa’s third largest attendance church, and they would be more than 100,000 on a weekend across their campuses.
Rich Birch — Yes, it’s amazing. Amazing
Warren Bird — But that’s another story.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So a couple things, just while we’re kind of establishing why this particular study. So there does seem to be this um undercurrent in the culture in general. I don’t know whether it’s just the church culture that’s like, it kind of looks down on large churches.

Rich Birch — In fact, I was at an event earlier this year of large church pastors where the vibe there for sure was like, and it’s one of these kind of like social things. They get all their people together. And it’s outside of they’re all from the same denomination, but it’s not run by the denomination. They just do it themselves. And the reason is, is because they feel like, oh, everybody else looks down on us.
Rich Birch — So why is that? Why do you, why is it that we seem as, as Christians to kind of, I don’t know. It’s like we, we, we look at these large churches suspiciously. Why, why do you think that is?
Warren Bird — A lot of reasons. The probably the biggest reason is the cultural distrust of institutions, church included. And and that’s all the major institutions.
Warren Bird — Somehow we think, and I’ll just use a wild example, that going to GoFundMe where there’s zero accountability that my money is going to be better used than in an established non-profit or Christ-centered non-profit or church or whatever. And it’s like, really? But that’s the tenor of the culture.
Warren Bird — And there have been enough scandals that the media has highlighted that people like, okay, yeah, you’re raising money for the church van, for the youth. I mean, that’s a great idea, but i you know do I have any confidence that that’s what’s happening? That’s just on the money side. There are so many other factors that influence the distrust in large organized religion.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true. You were saying about the, you know, when you see any scandal write ups, if the something goes sideways at a church, they talk about a rich megachurch or an affluent megachurch or a whatever.
Rich Birch — The other thing that bugs me in those reports is they always talk about, well, you know, they have rock and roll band. And like they they kind of talk about some of the stuff we do as if it’s like, well, that’s the reason, the only reason why people are there. So interesting stuff.
Warren Bird — Yeah. So, so Rich, let me put this in context.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Warren Bird — I am all for every single church, whether it’s three people, 30 people, 300, 3000, 30,000, whatever.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Warren Bird — If they are making disciples of Jesus Christ…

Rich Birch — Amen.

Warren Bird — …and even more so if they are making disciple-makers of Jesus Christ.
Warren Bird — Now, when a church is explosively growing and it’s genuine, I’m just thrilled by it. Because large churches have the opportunity to do things that other sized churches don’t.

Rich Birch — Right.
Warren Bird — Like let’s say special needs ministry that that often is very volunteer intensive and sometimes staff intensive and may require a certain room. You know, it’s a a quiet room or or ability to do things structurally with your facility that just not every church can do. But but large churches can. So I’m trying to zero in on, okay, every church size can do something well.
Warren Bird — And actually the survey at bit.ly/largechurch2025 is part of a series that’s going to compare against every other size. So for example, the average pastor age, or the average pastor tenure, or the average, whatever. We’re going be able to do across all sizes. I’m doing the very large church size and, and I’m, that’s, that’s what, that’s the size that’s hardest to get good data on. And I’m bullish on the outreach, on the impact on their communities.
Warren Bird — In fact, let me let me leak one early finding.
Rich Birch — Sure
Warren Bird — We gave 15 things where we said, what has, have these changed since the pandemic?

Rich Birch — Right.

Warren Bird — Have they increased, stayed the same, and gone down? The number two vote at present is our service and impact on our local community.
Rich Birch — Interesting.
Warren Bird — Wow, that’s such a positive thing…

Rich Birch — Right.

Warren Bird — …especially for large churches.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing. You know, one of the things in in the coaching I’ve done with churches, we talk about magnetic community service as a key piece of an invite culture that people want to be a part of a church that is not only making a difference, but they want to be seen as being a part of of a church that’s making a difference, so that I can invite my friends to come be a part of that.
Rich Birch — And it’s interesting, as I’ve talked with some large churches about that, you know, we’ll talk about this particular area. And they’re like, oh, we’ve never thought of that as like ah a way for us to reach our community. They’re like, it just seems like the thing we should do. And I’m like, no, you should be inviting first time guests to come and do that to be a part of. But that’s cool to see. Now, so what you said, number two, what was number one? Yeah, I’m going to try to milk more of this out of you here of these things, if you don’t mind saying.
Warren Bird — Very exciting. Very exciting. It’s the spiritual response by young adults.
Rich Birch — Interesting.
Warren Bird — Wow. In other words, the the people that we’re able to impact as a church who are young adults, we have seen a clear increase in the spiritual interest of that group. Wow.
Rich Birch — Isn’t that interesting? We’re seeing that in in a number of places, right? That that this is bubbling up.
Warren Bird — And that’s another thing about large churches. They are disproportionately bulging in not only the the children, Next Gen, but also in that 20-somethings age is is usually a sizable percentage of of, especially, newer large churches.
Rich Birch — I was just with the church a couple weeks ago and they were talking about—and they’re a large church—and they were kind of thinking, they were like, I would say disparagingly about their own ministry. And they’re like, you know, young people just don’t want large churches. They they want a small, intimate thing. And I challenged them on that. Now I’m looking forward because when the study comes out, I can give them an actual stat.
Warren Bird — Okay, okay, Rich. I’m going to tease another finding then.
Rich Birch — Yes. Okay.
Warren Bird — Because this I’ve I’ve sat and listened to your… And and tell tell us the name of the title of your latest book where you talk about different growth strategies.
Rich Birch — Yeah, Breaking Breaking the 200 Barrier or 2000 Barrier is the this the title of the book I’m working on.
Warren Bird — Wow. Okay. So so this survey that I’m doing actually has been done every five years since the year 2000.
Rich Birch — Okay, yeah.
Warren Bird — And it’s fascinating to see the same question, the answer every 2005, 2010, 2015, 2020, just before the pandemic, and now 2025 after the pandemic.
Warren Bird — And one of the questions is, it’s an agree/disagree statement, that how important are small groups or teams for the Christian formation and discipleship in your church?
Warren Bird — And the when it was first asked many years ago, it was right at 50%. Every single survey, it has inched up. And the last survey, it was 89%. And I thought, well, we’re not going to top that because you don’t get 90 or more percent in any survey.
Rich Birch — Wow. Of anything.
Warren Bird — But the responses so far, 92%…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Warren Bird — …give the highest rank to small groups, which translated is: you get bigger by getting smaller. And that intimacy that you were reflecting on, that’s what where people thrive. That’s the hub of discipleship. And that’s essential for the larger you get to know how to do that well. Plus, of course, that’s where so many of your lay leaders are developed and everything else.
Rich Birch — Yeah. And and we, on ah from a practitioner point of view, we know that um like large churches have to get good at that. Like you have to get good at moving people into smaller communities. You’ve got to figure out how, you can’t, people will come for whatever you’re doing on the weekend, but they will not stick and stay long-term.
Rich Birch — they They have to find a group of small, you know a small group of friends that they’re connecting with. My parents, most of their, ah my dad moved, I think, 23 times in his career, moved a lot and went to a bunch of different churches. I think like 18 different churches or something over the years, and mostly small churches. I’ve mostly worked in large churches.
Rich Birch — And if I’m honest, they would never say it this way because they love me and they’re good parents. I always felt like they kind of looked down on the large church thing. They’re like, I don’t know. I don’t know. They, at one point we’re moving to Louisville, Kentucky.
Rich Birch — And I said, you got to go to Southeast, at least try going to to Southeast and check it out. Just check it out for one weekend. They ended up getting connected there, stuck and stayed, loved it. And they would say too, and it’s a massive church, probably like it’s up there, top single digit, the largest church in the country, somewhere in that range. And it it they would say to this day, that was the church that they felt the most connected at, not the church of 200 people. You’ve we’ve got to get really good at that for sure.
Rich Birch — Any other findings that are kind of interesting for us to kick around?
Warren Bird —Yeah, what I did, Rich, before the surveys, I got a whole bunch of people together who work with churches and say, tell me what you think might be on the horizon that I can test for.
Warren Bird — And one of the things Ithen worded questions to test for is are, is the locus of where future pastors, leaders, missionaries are coming from, is it is it less from the seminaries as points of origin? You know, I’m going to go to seminary and try to figure out what God has for my life. And more happening there in the local church. And and just for an example, if you take all the churches of 5,000 and higher in attendance that of ah have completed the survey so far, and you ask, do you have a residency program or equivalent? (And I give them a whole bunch of words because everybody calls it something different…)

Rich Birch — Yes.

Warren Bird — But designed to train future church leaders.

Rich Birch — Right.
Warren Bird — So far in the findings, 92% have said yes.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Warren Bird — And then when we said, okay, if yes, then how many people during the course of 2025 are you training? And the median is 15.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Warren Bird — Now, that doesn’t mean just really large churches are doing it. I also checked for 2,000 and up, 1,000 and up. And they’re all at different levels doing some kind of of serious ministerial training.
Warren Bird — So this is pipeline, pathway, whatever you want to call it, that, you know, from to use the phrase of another church, starting with the irreligious person who comes and and finds a vital life-changing forgiveness relationship with Jesus Christ. And then if gifted, there is just no lack of steps you can take toward leadership if God’s calling should continue in that particular way – all the way towards a ministry residency, towards doing something vocationally full-time.
Rich Birch — Wow, that’s incredible, 92%. That’s shocking to me, that’s surprising. That’s incredible for churches over 5,000. I wonder, one of the things I’ll look forward to when the study comes out is seeing how that gradiates with churches that are say at 2,000.
Warren Bird — Right. And and that’s what we’ll do in the report.
Warren Bird — For those who take the survey, by the way, they get the report first and…
Rich Birch — Yes. What is that link again?
Warren Bird — …and and but wait, there’s more. Those who take the survey get an exclusive webinar where we unveil it and do Q&A with us and special guests like Sam Chan there. And and and we’ve we’ve got a whole bunch of people lined up who are going to kind of ask the tough questions of the data. And again, it’s at bit.ly/largechurch2025.

Rich Birch — That’s great.
Warren Bird — And so, and so participate and then be the first to get these wonderful reports that we’ll do.

Rich Birch — You know, that’s interesting because I, you know, I’m always looking for what are the behaviors at a kind of certain level of church that changes as they become larger. And um that’s actually that book I’m working on, that really is what it kind of is is based around. And one of them, there’s these eight different things that I’ve i’ve just seen. And and so I’m out talking to other church leaders. And one of them is they go from reactive volunteering to proactive volunteer growth. That like a church of a church of 800 or a church of 500 is like, oh, we need people for this. But then to really break that 2000 barrier, churches have to, they move to, or we see them move to, okay, actually we see that moving people into places of their gifting, their what’s kind of best for them. And also trying to find a way to create more space for more volunteers is a behavior that we see.
Rich Birch — I wonder if in this one, as churches go from 2,000 to 3,000 to 5,000, there’s like, it’s just kind of that behavior even just extended all the way up through the kind of staffing experience where it’s like, hey, we’ve got to develop our leaders from within. That’s that’s amazing. That’s that’s incredible.
Warren Bird — Yeah, it’s to me, it’s exciting.
Rich Birch — Oh, for sure.
Warren Bird — It’s it’s just thrilling to imagine the impact because frankly, last weekend of the people who went to a Protestant church, at least in the United States, um somewhat around half or more went to a large church.

Rich Birch — Interesting.
Warren Bird — And it’s where you cut do the cutoff for what becomes large. But this is a a small number of churches, relatively speaking…

Rich Birch — Right.

Warren Bird — 320,000 U.S. churches. And at least in the megachurch department, 2,000 and higher, they’re only like 1,800 or so. And then when you go into the thousand range, it it adds a chunk more churches. But this is a disproportionate number of churches. And if they get leadership development right, um the impact, the ripple effect to bless all churches and all communities has great potential.
Rich Birch — Well, and this, absolutely, this has been um so much of the work that you’ve done over the years, which I think has been such a blessing to so many churches, is you have mined out these insights, these, that but then have become resources that then all of us can apply regardless of our church size.
Rich Birch — So even down the road when the when the study comes out, if you’re not a large church, this would be a great study for you to read, to but to to to learn from.
Warren Bird — Yeah. Yeah, and we will make it available to the public…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Warren Bird — …but it’s just those who take the survey at – did I mention it: Bit.ly/largechurch2025. And it closes for those who may be listening to this later: November 11th, 2025. That’s your cutoff for midnight, that night…
Rich Birch — Midnight.

Warren Bird — …whatever your midnight is.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Warren Bird — U.S. churches take the survey. So, but Rich, you know, let me just tell you some of the questions we’re asking.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Warren Bird — I’d love to get your feedback on, for example.
Rich Birch — Okay, sure.
Warren Bird — First, the stereotype of a megachurch, for example, is that they have this colossal sanctuary like like Lakewood Church, you know, the seats 16,000. But the reality is typically the largest venue, and we’re asking this, but I haven’t looked at it for this survey so far, is about 1,400, which means, you know, you have multiple campuses, multiple services and so forth.
Warren Bird — Which leads to the question, is the is the spiritual commitment, is there any relationship between facility size and the amount of volunteering, giving, or anything else? Are there factors that proportion with the size of your largest worship venue? We’ll have some numbers on that, but Rich, do you have any predictions?
Rich Birch — Well, um so I’m looking forward, this could be one of those areas where I have been giving bad advice, but I have I have been saying for a long time, 15 years, think smaller rooms, more more services, more campuses, rather than you know fewer.

Rich Birch — And um the logic, I the reason why I say that is like, let’s say you take, um like my friends at Flatirons, they have 4,000 seats in their in their biggest room. You only, “only”, you only need maybe five or six people on the worship band. um You know, and that room only has, I think there’s, I think there’s only four entrances to that room. So you’ll only need maybe eight people to actually be like usher greeter people at the door.
Rich Birch — Man, I want to see way more volunteer engagement than that. I want to see, you know, for 4,000 people to only have, say, a dozen volunteers, man, that’s that’s like the wrong kind of efficiency. I’d rather go the other way. Let’s have a smaller room. Let’s have eight rooms of 500 where then now we require a whole bunch of more people to be involved to make it happen, which is then going to drive all kinds of the other positive behavior around inviting and them being leaning in more, all of that.
Rich Birch — So I would say, I think there’s a sweet spot. I think, you know, it’s, well, and I’ve heard that 14-, 1500 number before. I think it’s, you know, 500, 1000, somewhere in there. There’s like this interesting sweet spot. If I was going to guess, I would think as it goes dow… as it goes up, that kind of engagement and some of those participation numbers go down over a certain number. So that’s my prediction. We’ll see.
Warren Bird — All right. Rich Birch predicts. We will you see what happens. All right. Let me ask you another one, Rich.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Warren Bird — There are a lot of definitions to the attractional model. And there are a lot of questions of people saying, you know, is the attractional model, they use strong words like dead.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Warren Bird — But but is it lessening? And if so, what is replacing it? And we’ve asked enough different types of questions about involvement and, you know, where’s your front door, primary front door, and that most newcomers come and all, that I think we’re going to be able to tease out which churches are strongly attractional and and how strongly they’re growing, versus which churches are not and how strongly they’re growing. And which churches are doing other things like, let’s say, community service emphases, justice emphases – how that impacts growth.
Warren Bird — Do you have any prediction as to where you think it’s going to land when all these listeners of yours in large churches take the survey at bit.ly/largechurch2025?
Rich Birch — Well, you got me on a bit of a high horse. I’ll try and I’ll try not to preach about the death of the attractional church, but I can say, so ah last year, I turned one of those numbers on my birthday that had a zero at the end that started for me to think like, okay, I’ve been in this for a long time. And one of the things that I’ve noticed in the people we serve is I do think when I started 20, 30 years ago, you could do things that were classically attractional. Like, and and we would have never said, we’re trying to entertain people. Like we were more spiritual than that. We would have never said like, put on a good band, be funny, have like a standup comic, do… Like we wouldn’t have said that. Although those were all the things we were trying to do.
Rich Birch — And I actually think that worked, but I actually don’t think that works anymore. Because the people that we’re serving has changed. I’m convinced that the people that are coming in our front doors in every zip code in the country is more unchurched today than it was 20 years ago.
Rich Birch — And so people are coming, they’re pushing through some sort of cultural resistance to be there. They don’t just stumble into church like they used to. Even…
Warren Bird — Right. They’re choosing church over…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Warren Bird — …any number of other things they could have done on a Sunday morning.

Rich Birch — Yes. And they’re…
Warren Bird — And they’re coming find God.
Rich Birch — Yes, they’re coming with actual questions. Like they’re like, I, my marriage is falling apart. My life is not doing well. Who is Jesus? Does any of this make a difference? And so, you know, the classic attractional model I would think is in decline. And that comes from someone I’ll introduce myself in situation where listen, I came from the attractional church movement. That is my background. That is my heritage. But I, that I think model has has shifted.

Rich Birch — Now, It’s not like we’ve moved to repulsive church. It’s not like that works. We don’t want our churches to push people away. But I, but I, I, and I do think that there has been, I don’t know if you’re teasing this out as well. I have also noticed, man, a lot of our worship services, they look a lot similar.
Rich Birch — I’ve been in, I think 22 churches in the last year where I’ve been like there on a Sunday in a church. Most of those churches north of 500, less than, well, guess there’s a bunch that are quite large, but north of 500. And it’s interesting how we’re, a lot of us are doing a very similar kind of participatory raised hands, come to the front, get prayed for – that, whatever you call that. That sure is a great band. And there is somebody that’s like, they know what they’re doing from a communications point of view, all that. But there there seems to be, I don’t know whether that’s just me, but it seems like there’s more homogeneity in the church and than I maybe even realized was there. I’m I’m not sure.
Warren Bird — Well, at least…
Rich Birch — So that’s what I would say.
Warren Bird — …homogeneity in terms of experiential. And I think the pandemic, one of the silver linings is churches said, we need to distinguish what the value is in coming in person versus watching.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Warren Bird — And and you you can’t be hugged on on the… And and please don’t anyone hear me as disparaging the incredibly wonderful outreach by ah the the Internet that so many churches have with their digital ministries. But but to come in person, I can be hugged. I can I can be prayed over in person with somebody holding my hands to pray. I can tactilely, you know, take the Lord’s Supper, communion, whatever you call it, in person, in a way that that’s in community…

Rich Birch —Yeah.

Warren Bird — …that I just can’t do online by myself, even even with my family. And that’s that’s one of the many pulls for people coming back. And I’m hoping in the survey to learn a little bit more as to what is drawing people today in different aspects of a increased hunger for God.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I can see I can see that how, you know, there’s been a shift around that. And and again, super intrigued to see what comes out of – is there was there one last question that you, listen, you get to actually shape the questions that you’re like super intrigued. You don’t have to reveal the early results, but like you’re really looking forward to, I know that’s like picking which is your favorite children, I understand. But like, you know, are there any any other questions that you’re really hmm super intrigued to see what comes out?
Warren Bird — Yeah. It’s just the whole idea of the comeback. I, we ask people, what was your worship attendance in 2019? Which would be, remember the pandemic was March of 2020. So this is well before anybody had in inkling of what was to come. And ask, what is the attendance in-person today? Total noses. And and to wonder, because the larger the church, typically, as I mentioned earlier, the the harder you were hit during the pandemic and the and the slower often you were to do the comeback.
Warren Bird — So have they regained to where they were? And what is, first of all, so far 53%, limiting just, let’s say to megachurches, 2,000 and higher, 53% have come back at least 10% more than they were in 2019.
Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.
Warren Bird — But some have spectacularly, dramatically come back…

Rich Birch — Right.

Warren Bird — …three times the size, two times the size.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.
Warren Bird — And and I want to isolate those off. And there is a small group, but it’s still a definite group that has not. And they’re taking the survey.
Warren Bird — And if that’s you, please take the survey.
Rich Birch — We want to hear from you.
Warren Bird — Because we want to say, OK, what’s happening in those churches that’s different from those? So so we’ll look across the spectrum of comeback. But if someone said, nope, the era of the megachurch is dead.
Warren Bird — Oh, oh, oh. And the era of the people said, oh, megachurch is just a baby boomer phenomenon, you know, with pastors just getting older and older. And, you know, so far, the average pastor age is considerably younger, senior pastor, than when we did the survey five years ago…

Rich Birch — Interesting. Interesting.

Warren Bird — …which says there’s a whole new generation, at least enough of that generation of younger church planters or otherwise that are becoming large churches.
Warren Bird — And I say church planters because from our survey five years ago, 82% of megachurches, 2,000 and higher, reached their size under the leadership of their current and founding pastor, same person. So I’m sorry, that’s a misstatement. Under their current pastor, the majority of which are founding pastors.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Warren Bird — But many people come into a church that’s 100 years old and you know for 100 years ministered effectively as a community of 50 to 75, and then just exploded under one pastor.

Warren Bird — So um all that to say, I’m excited by the reaching of young adults, by the the apparent getting younger of the age of the leader and the explosive growth of some. And I haven’t correlated the explosive growth ones with the average age of the pastor, but we will do that.
Warren Bird — And the more people who take the survey, the more I’m able to slice and dice in that way. So please, before November 11, 2025, take the survey. It’ll make a difference and it will pay you back big time in terms of data informed, wisdom that the Holy Spirit uses to help you make wise planning and strategic decisions.
Rich Birch — Well, the thing, friends, we really do want you to take this survey. You really should be tracking along with Warren. And, you know, he does just such great work. And this is going to be a valuable resource. I know it’ll be the thing we’ll be chewing on for a long time, probably for the next five years until the next one comes around. And then we’ll be thinking about that one. So super helpful.
Rich Birch — This is great. It’s interesting that whole thing you were talking about. i have I’ve wondered, I heard, this is probably two years ago on the economic side, they talked about the K recovery in some industries, that there were some that have done quite well and then some that are doing not so well. And just intuitively, that has been my experience as I’ve talked with church leaders, that there are still, like there are people that COVID is in their rear view mirror and they’re like, man, we are just like we’re up and to the right. Things just are going. But then there’s some church leaders that are still like licking their wounds and are like, man, this just is, we’ve not been able to recover and it’s not, it’s not going well.
Warren Bird — Well, and and for some, you know, the the prime industry in their city tanked during the pandemic…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Warren Bird — …and there’s there’s been a massive departure. Or there was a leadership a change or there was, you know, something else that that could explain something that thwarted or or considerably slowed their growth and rebuilding impact.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, so good. So give us that link again and the timeline. Just so just give us a whole blurb.
Warren Bird — Yeah, I might not have mentioned it before, but it’s bit.ly bit.ly/largechurch2025. That’s all one word. And between now and November 11th, 2025, and please don’t wait till the last, but I mean, you can, but but we’d love to have you be part. And we’d love just to bless you back with all kinds of helpful ah guidance and information and benchmarks and ratios and everything else if you’ll participate.
Warren Bird — This will be, assuming we continue the way we are the largest ever study…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s right.

Warren Bird — …of large churches in the United States.
Rich Birch — What, how long does it take if i’m if I’m preparing to sit down to do it? How much time should I set aside?
Warren Bird — Okay. The average is just under 20 minutes. That’s a big ask.
Warren Bird — However, on the opening page of the survey, click here to get a PDF. Many people hand it to their admin and say, hey, there are certain numbers, things you fill those in and I’ll fill in the rest and then you can key it in for us or whatever. So so um while it is asking a very knowledgeable person to to give input. It’s often shared around the office. But that 20 minutes, up to 20 minutes will pay you back big time…

Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.

Warren Bird — …in in the feedback you get.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I just I just referenced that because I know you got to set time aside. This is not like…
Warren Bird — Yeah and and I know that people have survey fatigue everywhere you go. You’re asked to take a quick survey, which is really not quick. And so I’m just being upfront and telling you what the average is.
Rich Birch — Yeah, no, it’s good. And it’s super valuable, friends. And this this will help not only your church, but will help shape so many churches. We want to learn from you. You know, that’s really what this podcast is, trying to learn from other churches. This is a great thing.

Rich Birch — Warren, where do we want to send people online if they want to track with you, um if they just kind of want to be in the the greater Warren Bird cinematic universe?
Warren Bird — I am full time as a church researcher and writer. I probably post the most on LinkedIn. I’m pretty easy to find there to follow me. And and Rich, thank you for mentioning different books. And um that’s the most joyful thing that happens is somebody reads like “Becoming a Future Ready Church,” the latest book that Daniel Yang and Adelle Banks and I did, and then writes me an email. Just Google me. I’m easy to find. And says, I have a question or I’d like to tell you a story or whatever. So that’s the way to get even more connected with me.
Rich Birch — Well, it’s an honor, privilege to know you, even for folks that aren’t watching the video. There’s Mike Slaughter’s book, “Unlearning Churches”, over your corner. And that literally was a book I read when it first came out years ago, and it shaped my own thinking. This is the thing that I was thinking this as we were preparing. I know I said this at the beginning, but I want to honor you with this. Your books are for sure the ones I recommend the most, like “Better Together”, “Hero Maker”, “Multisite”, “Church Road Trip”.
Rich Birch — Like there’s a bunch of books that you’ve had your hand in, “Next”, that I’m always like – literally today, I was like, someone was talking about succession stuff. And I was like, well, you should buy “Next” first. Like before you do anything else, buy “Next”. That’s the book you should buy and go through that. And then, you know, think about your next steps from there.

So and they have that consistently with your work. So you do such good work. Thank you so much, friend. So glad you’re here. And let’s get a bunch of people to do your survey. Take care.
Warren Bird — Rich, you’re a good man. I always go out of my way to hang out with you or if we’re at a gathering together to sit down at your table or to be in your session. So keep up the great work and I look forward to the next time our paths will intersect.

Teaching on Money Without Being Weird: 5 Churches Doing It Right Oct 07, 2025

Early in our marriage, rent ate half our income.
At the end of one of our first months living together, we had $35 total left for a week’s worth of groceries.
Christine was stressed. (Totally understandable.) I started building a compelling, highly spiritual case for “maybe we skip giving this month.”

Christine cut through my rationalization with five words: “Of course we are tithing.”

That moment kick-started a lifelong journey into generosity. And here’s the honest headline: we’ve received more through generosity than we ever imagined we’d “lose” by giving.

So no, money isn’t some awkward side topic we avoid like a seventh-grade sex talk. It’s discipleship, it’s spiritual formation, and the way you handle it matters.

Bad money preaching feels like a timeshare pitch; good money teaching changes lives.

Why Teaching on Generosity Matters (Right Now)

The Bible won’t be quiet about money. There are somewhere around 2,350 verses on money, wealth, and possessions—far more than many other themes. The precise number depends on how you classify passages, but the sheer volume is the point. [ref]
Jesus talked about money a lot. Depending on methodology, many analysts count 16 of 38 parables touching on money/possessions. The exact ratio is debated, but the broader truth stands: money saturated his teaching because it reveals our hearts. [ref]
Culture is catechizing your people already. U.S. household debt hit $18.39T in Q2 2025; credit card and auto balances keep inching up. Translation: Your congregation is being discipled by debt, fees, and friction. If the church won’t preach a better story, Visa will. [ref]
Teaching influences behavior. Barna’s recent work highlights a “virtuous cycle”; people who experience generosity are more likely to practice generosity. Teaching that pairs theology with tangible experiences catalyzes that cycle.

And yet many churches go quiet. A recent poll found about a quarter of churches don’t teach on generosity at all. Silence is also a sermon; it just lets culture preach.

If you’re not talking about money, Amazon, Amex, and Apple are happy to.

If you won’t preach discipleship of dollars, Prime, points, and payments will.

The Rich Young Ruler isn’t a “rich guy” dunk; it’s a mirror. Money threatens to become identity, security, and scorecard. Jesus’ money talk isn’t fundraising …it’s heart surgery.

The church can’t heal what it won’t name.

And here’s a reality check on tithing language in the pews: only 21% of Christians say they give 10% or more to their church; among practicing Christians, the figure rises to 42%, but it’s still not a majority.

Clear, confident teaching matters.

So, here’s the deal: if less than half of your people are tithing, and you’re still allergic to talking about money, you’ve basically handed the keys of financial discipleship to TikTok finance bros and credit card companies.

The antidote? Stop reinventing the wheel and learn from churches already doing this well. Rip their best moves, pivot them for your context, and jam until it sticks. The following five examples aren’t theory; they’re field-tested, congregation-shaping strategies that actually move the needle.

Steal These Ideas for Teaching on Generosity

These aren’t “talks about money.” They’re systems that pair sermons with scaffolding—tools, prompts, groups, and follow-up. (Yes, steal this.) The summaries below draw on their public resources and the field notes you provided.

Crossroads Church (Cincinnati, OH) — Tithe Test + The Blue Team

Crossroads treats Malachi 3 like a lab: 90-Day Tithe Test, with public invitations, clear sign-ups, and—this is key—a refund guarantee if participants don’t sense God’s provision in that period. It’s not just a sermon; it’s an experiment with a feedback loop. They’ve also publicly talked about the tithe test/refund in weekend content: “we will refund your entire amount of money [after 90 days, if you don’t see God meet your needs].” They share stories from people who have participated and invite people to join in.

Why it’s smart

Behavioral friction is your enemy. A simple, high-trust on-ramp reduces fear.
Guarantee = confidence signal. It reframes tithing as testable, not mystical.
Tribe beats try-hard. Their “Blue Team” (declared tithers) creates belonging, updates, and social proof—discipleship with nametags. (Crossroads surfaces the 90-Day Tithe Test in their group and resource ecosystem.)

Steal this

Offer a time-boxed challenge with explicit sign-ups and a real follow-up plan.
Build a “finish line” story—share outcomes, testimonies, and next steps.
Form a named cohort for ongoing encouragement (think: “Founders,” “First Fruits,” etc.).

Liquid Church (NJ) — Generous Livin’ with Receipts

Liquid runs a 90-Day Tithe Challenge with a money-back guarantee, reinforced by weekly videos/emails, budgeting workshops, and practical content across their site. Start here: “Give Generously” (challenge + guarantee). See also “The Blessing of Generous Livin’” and a sampling of debt/finance helps that continually point back to the challenge (e.g., How to Get Out of Debt, Keys to Financial Freedom).

Why it’s smart

Bold offer = clarity. A guarantee signals pastoral confidence and lowers cynicism.
Drip content changes habits. Weekly nudges move people from intention to action.
Holistic framing. Teaching + tools acknowledges the money ecosystem (budgets, debt, goals), not just the Sunday plate.

Steal this

Stand up a simple microsite/landing page with one action: “Join the 90-Day Challenge.”
Script eight weekly nudges (video + email) before the series launches.
Pair the series with budgeting classes and coaching hours.

Pantano Christian (Tucson, AZ) — Altars of Generosity

They invited a small, concrete step: “Add $10/week to your tithe.” Small enough to be doable; specific enough to be measurable. And they framed it theologically as “worship in motion.” Series overview and message page.

Why it’s smart

Shrink the ask, grow the muscle. Micro-moves beat macro-vows.
Worship framing. This isn’t “fundraising;” it’s formation.
Legacy lane. Budgeting + estate planning workshops widen generosity beyond this weekend to this lifetime.

Steal this

Name a small weekly move and make it your default on-ramp.
Offer two tracks: Entry (budgeting 101) and Advanced (estate/legacy).
Capture testimonies in week 4; run them back in week 6 to reinforce momentum.

Life.Church — Making Change

They made a money series so simple it could fit on a T-shirt:

Less Is More
Stress Is Bad
Giving Is Good
Tomorrow Matters

Each talk is a sticky, single idea, reinforced through YouVersion devotionals and group courses like Financial Peace (FPU). The series index is available, featuring individual message pages: Making Change overview, Less Is More, Stress Is Bad, Giving Is Good, and Tomorrow Matters.

Why it’s smart

Sermons that travel. One-liners spread further than 45-minute word studies.
Daily reinforcement. Devotionals convert Sunday inspiration into Tuesday habits.
Group accountability. People do hard things with people; FPU is the scaffolding.

Steal this

Reduce each week to a four-word maxim. If it won’t fit on a slide, it won’t stick in a mind.
Publish a 7-day reading plan per week of the series.
Recruit host homes (short, time-bound groups) to practice the content—think 4–6 weeks.

Saddleback (Lake Forest, CA) — Uncommon Cents

They named the water we’re swimming in: skyrocketing consumer debt + low financial literacy, and then they built a resource hub (worksheets, tools), ran workshops, and launched Financial Freedom groups. Start here: Uncommon Cents series hub

Why it’s smart

They dignify the struggle. “Debt” and “stress” get named, not shamed.
They curate tools. One click from sermon to action.
They scale discipleship. Short-term groups translate content to community.

Steal this

Set up a Financial Tools page before your series launches.
Offer pop-up workshops during the series window (budgeting, debt snowball, saving).
Run 6-week Financial Freedom groups; publish a start/stop date to lower the barrier.

How to Preach Money with Clarity (and Zero Cringe)

Lead with purpose, not pressure. “We want something for you, not from you.” Then show how money discipleship grows freedom, margin, and mission. (Barna’s virtuous cycle insight is your friend here.)
Name the cultural liturgies. Debt, dopamine, and one-click checkout catechize your people daily. Quote the macro: household debt trends, high APR retail cards, etc., to be concrete about the “enemy.”
Make the ask measurable. A 90-day challenge or a $10/week step creates traction. (See Crossroads, Liquid, Pantano for models.)
Pair every sermon with a tool. App, worksheet, group, or coaching hour. If Sunday has no Tuesday, you’re just motivational speaking.
Use one-liners that travel. Life.Church’s four titles are masterclass-level sticky. Say less so people remember more.
Tell stories (yours included). People borrow courage. Whatever your “$35-grocery week” story is, use it to humanize giving and offer a parable of trust.

The Elephant in the Auditorium

Pastors often avoid discussing money for understandable reasons, such as fear of appearing self-interested, not wanting to trigger shame, or because it wasn’t covered in seminary.

But the bigger risk is malpractice by omission. Barna shows that only a fraction of Christians intentionally tithe; Stewardship’s polling reveals that churches rarely address generosity. People are already being formed—just not by Jesus.

If your church won’t disciple people’s wallets, don’t be shocked when Wall Street does.

**From One Campus to Six: Building a Global Leadership Model with Lane Lowery** Oct 02, 2025

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by **Lane Lowery**, Executive Pastor of **Warren Church** in South Carolina and Georgia. Founded in 1898, Warren is one of the fastest-growing churches in America, with over 7,000 members across its campuses. Known for its Southern hospitality, Bible teaching, and focus on whole-person ministry, Warren has also launched a Hope Women’s Center and is preparing to open a Hope Mental Wellness Center.

Is your church wrestling with how to scale leadership and maintain unity as you grow? Tune in as Lane shares how Warren Church transitioned to a global leadership model, developed essential staff practices, and keeps the large church personal and relational.

**From single-site to multi-site.** // When Lane first arrived at Warren Church it was a single-campus church of around 3,000 members. Today, with multiple campuses and ministries, the church has grown to nearly 7,000 members and employs 270 staff. Lane notes that what worked for one or two campuses no longer fit once the church expanded to six ministry expressions.

**The global leadership model.** // To address challenges of scale, Warren implemented a global leadership structure. Eight global ministry teams oversee preschool, next gen, discipleship, missions, worship, communications, counseling, and the Hope Women’s Center. Each leader is a “player-coach,” serving in a campus role while also providing oversight across all locations. This ensures alignment while keeping leaders grounded in local ministry.

**Why unity matters.** // Before adopting the global model, Warren found itself with competing ministry silos—at one point even running three different discipleship models across campuses. The new structure promotes collaboration, vision-sharing, and consistency, ensuring that ministries move together rather than in competition.

**The player-coach advantage.** // Asking leaders to both manage a local ministry and oversee their area globally is demanding, but it builds credibility. Leaders bring ideas from real ministry experience and share them across campuses. To prevent burnout, Warren Church emphasizes intentional rhythms, regular meetings, and clear communication.

**Eight Essential Practices.** // To embed culture, Warren Church developed a set of eight essential practices guiding staff behavior. These are celebrated in staff communications, reinforced during onboarding, and reviewed biannually. Practices like “Connect with People” and “Leverage Change to Move the Mission” ensure values don’t stay on the wall but shape daily ministry.

**Keeping it personal.** // Even as a large church, Warren prioritizes personal touches. Each location has a paid staff member who oversees the First Impressions Team at that campus, and every first-time guest receives a personal call within the week. With about 70 new guests each Sunday across campuses, that’s more than 3,500 calls annually. Hospital visits, prayer before surgeries, and care for shut-ins also remain a priority, modeling shepherding from the senior pastor down.

**When it’s time to change.** // Lane encourages leaders to admit when structures aren’t working, secure leadership buy-in, research and learn from other churches, engage stakeholders early, and clearly communicate the “why” behind changes. Transitioning Warren’s model took about a year of planning, listening, and implementation—but the results have unified and strengthened the church.

Visit warren.church to learn more about Warren Church and reach out to Lane here. Plus, download the Eight Essential Practices document that Lane talks about.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church***

Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it!

**Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church!**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Well, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. You are going to be rewarded for tuning in. Thanks for being here. I think we’ve got one of the oldest churches on the hat we’ve ever had on an episode. Warren Church, founded in 1898, is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, which I love that because so many times I think we think of fast growing churches and like there they’re like celebrate their fifth year and they’re so excited for how long they’ve been around.
Rich Birch — But this church has been around for a long time. They’ve got four campuses in South Carolina and Georgia. Southern hospitality, generosity, strong Bible teaching, and a passion for making disciples and multiplying disciple makers have been a heart of Warren from the very beginning and behind all they do. They also have a sports and fitness center programs that really try to minister to the whole person. Lane Lowery is with us today. He is the executive pastor. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here, Lane.
Lane Lowery — Thank you so much, Rich. I am grateful to be a part of this.
Rich Birch — This is going be a good conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill in the picture? Tell us a little bit. That’s kind of the bio of who the church is. Tell us about the church. Kind of give us the flavor and tell us a little bit about when you say executive pastor. I know as an XP, it’s like every XP looks a little different. Tell us about your role.
Lane Lowery — Sure, sure. Well, as you said, Warren is about 127 year old church. We are multi-site and it’s happened just incredible. We launched our first multi-site campus, Grovetown, right at 11 years ago.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Lane Lowery — And then within the last five years, we’ve adopted two other churches.

Rich Birch — Wow.
Lane Lowery — So we did a church plant, if you will, which you know but was our first multi-site. And then the the Lord brought us two other churches and it’s been incredible.
Lane Lowery — We also have a Hope Women’s Center, which is a crisis pregnancy center that we oversee. And we are just about to launch what we’re calling the Hope Mental Wellness Center um that will open the doors of that in January. And so we’ve already had a counseling ministry going on here, but we’ve expanded that. And we’re really excited about about that.
Lane Lowery — We’ve got a large church staff here and I get to serve as executive pastor. We have another executive pastor as well, which I’ll talk about later on, who is just a phenomenal leader. And and so just grateful that the the Lord allows us to participate in this together. And we’ve got an incredible leader, Dr. David McKinley is our senior pastor. He’s been with us 17 years…

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Lane Lowery — …and the and the Lord has just done ah an incredible work here. As you said, we are in the in the deep South and it is it’s ah it’s a fantastic ministry. I’m grateful that that the Lord has allowed me to be here. I’ve been here 19 years. And I’ve seen a lot of change. I’ve had a front row seat to some exponential growth. And it’s been a lot of fun ah to to be a part of that.
Rich Birch — Why don’t we talk a little bit of metrics there in the time from when you came 19 years ago to today? What does that look like from a growth point of view? Just to give people, I know you’re not like, ah you’re you not a bragging kind of guy.

Lane Lowery — Sure.
Rich Birch — you don’t want to brag about it, but talk us through that. That helps give a little bit of context for the conversation we’re having.
Lane Lowery — Great. Well, when I came here 19 years ago, we were Warren Church, Augusta. That was it. And, um and since then we’ve planted three other churches and we’ve launched a Hope Women’s Center. Like I said, the crisis pregnancy center, and we are in the process of launching a Hope Mental Wellness Center.
Lane Lowery — So we’ve, when I got here, we were, um probably around 3000 members total. We’re over almost 7,000 now.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing.

Lane Lowery — Um, like I said, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve been able to adopt some churches and, and we’ve been able to, just really engage our community in just an incredible way.
Lane Lowery — Obviously, you know, staff is growing. I remember when I got here, our full staff, we could meet in a, in a, in a, like a life group classroom. Now we have to meet in a large, you know, we’re up to 270 employees at this point…

Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah. Yep.

Lane Lowery — …on our, our six campuses, if you will. So we’ve just seen incredible, like said, we just seen the Lord do incredible things over the last 19 years.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I’d love to talk about that, particularly the kind of leadership structure stuff. I know as we, it’s like, everyone sounds great. Let’s add a bunch of staff. Let’s grow that side.
Lane Lowery — Yeah.
Rich Birch — But that does come with some tension. um I’m sure, I’m sure you’ve bumped into things along there that have been a little bit tricky. Talk us through what, what does that look like as the kind of, as your structure has changed over these years?
Lane Lowery — You know, it’s kind of like going from, you know, having no kids to a child and then having two child, you know, two children. And then if you have multiples after that, you you’ve just got to change the way you parent.
Lane Lowery — And, and as our church has gone from one site location to really six now…

Rich Birch — Right.

Lane Lowery — …as as we when you you know think about the other campuses, we just came to a place where we realized a single church model of leadership no longer worked for where we were. You know going from one to two was was was a stretch, but going from two to six, has been a huge stretch.
Lane Lowery — And so as I shared with you, you know we’ve had ah exponential growth, especially over the past five years, Rich, you know adding the the additional campuses and and the additional, you know the the Hope Women’s Center and Hope Mental Wellness Center. You know, so going from two campuses to six campuses, we realized that our single single church yeah and then our dual church model, leadership model was no longer, it just wasn’t effective.
Lane Lowery — It became evident that Dr. McKinley and myself, that we couldn’t effectively oversee the operations and staff on each of our campuses. you know we’ve got incredibly gifted campus pastors and we had to equip and empower them to lead with vision, not just give them tasks, but give them vision and responsibility.
Lane Lowery — So the key tipping point that really caused us to to to regroup and to implement a new leadership structure was when we realized at one point we looked up and we had three different discipleship models going on at our four campuses.
Rich Birch — Oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness.
Lane Lowery — Yeah, yeah. And as we we we noticed that that that just that’s just not to work.

Rich Birch — No, absolutely.

Lane Lowery — And so we also noticed that our former leadership structure didn’t promote, it didn’t promote the the unity and the and the collaboration that we really wanted from our staff team.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Lane Lowery — You know, it felt like our ministry teams, Rich, were in competition with one another rather than really working together as a team. We always use a statement, we’re better together. We really believe that.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Lane Lowery — But the way our our leadership model was structured, it didn’t promote unity. It didn’t promote um it collaboration. And we needed more team collaboration.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I love that. So yeah, just kind of stepping back statistically, 50% or around 50% of multi-site churches don’t get beyond, still are not getting beyond three locations. And I’m convinced a part of the reason why that is, is because of these issues that this, even just the structure stuff and how we interact with each other, it’s like, it’s working against what we’re trying to do. It’s it’s working against the mission that God’s called us to. So let’s get a little bit practical there.

Lane Lowery — Sure.
Rich Birch — Define in concrete terms. What do you mean? What are the roles? How does that all fit together? How do you, what’s the like, two minute explanation of how you talk about how you stuff gets done at Warren. What’s that look like?
Lane Lowery — Sure. So we we developed this, we call it a global leadership structure. And basically our global leadership team is it’s led by Pastor Andrew Bryan, who’s our executive pastor of ministries and leadership development. One of the best young leaders I’ve ever been around. And this team consists of the following ministry areas. So we have eight global ministry teams.
Lane Lowery — Our preschool and children’s team is led by Carol Young. Our next gen, which is our middle and high school team is led by Pastor Shane Padgett. Our spiritual formation and discipleship team is led by Pastor Corey Baxter. We have a local and and and global missions team, which is led by Pastor Mark Claiborne. We have a global worship team led by Pastor Joseph McKinley. We have a global communications and connections team led by Pastor Drew Robinson, a counseling and support group team led by Pastor Brett Legge. Then our Hope Women’s Center is led by Dr. Jacqueline Hyder.
Lane Lowery — Each of these people are player coaches. They’re overseeing an area of ministry on one of our campuses, but then they’re also overseeing the the greater, the overall ministry for all of the campuses.
Lane Lowery — For example, example Pastor Corey Baxter oversees our spiritual formation and discipleship. That’s our our life group ministry, our Sunday school ministry, if you will, and our discipleship groups and all of our discipleship ministry.
Lane Lowery — So Pastor Corey, he’s on our Grovetown campus and he is the day to day operations for that. But then he also kind of rises up to the 30,000 foot view and he oversees the discipleship and and spiritual formation ministry for all of our campuses. Which is why, we like I said, we got to a point where we looked up one day and we realized we had three different discipleship models going on you know within you know three of our our church campuses.
Lane Lowery — We thought this isn’t this isn’t right. This isn’t working well. So we thought let’s go to a global leadership model so that we have input and someone kind of overseeing over watching that for all of our campuses.
Lane Lowery — Like I said, these guys and girls are our player coaches. They’re they’re on boots on the ground on a campus, but then they rise up and lead the greater ministry of Warren as well.
Rich Birch — So like I’d love to double click on the player coach. That sounds like a conviction that you’ve had.

Lane Lowery — Yes, sir.

Rich Birch — That that’s like something, hey, we want to make sure we don’t just have like the head office people…

Lane Lowery — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …who like are like their whole job is head office. We want them grounded in local ministry. Talk us through that decision. What’s been maybe some of the upside of that, but then also some of the challenge of the player coach model.
Lane Lowery — Well, the the the challenge is it’s it’s a lot more to do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Lane Lowery — You know, they’ve got plenty to say grace over. Just like Pastor Corey, you know, our Grovetown church, they’re running over 2,000 every Sunday…

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Lane Lowery — …or about 1,500 every Sunday, about 1,500, excuse me, and And so he’s got plenty to say grace over just dealing with his own stuff with, with you know, we we believe that every person needs to be in a life group. You know we, you know, we believe every person needs to be in a discipleship relationship. So the challenge is saying, now hey, Pastor Corey, you’re doing a great job, but I’m going to add more to your more to your your your your table, you know.
Rich Birch — Yes. You’re so good at your job, we’re going to give you more.
Lane Lowery — Isn’t that how it works?
Rich Birch — Yes, absolutely.
Lane Lowery — You know find the busiest guy and give them more. But the good thing is we do have high capacity leaders, Rich. I mean, these, these folks are, so we’ve got to be careful not to, to overdo it and not to, you know, meet them to death. But you know, as well as I do, you got to have meetings. I mean, you have to.
Lane Lowery — And and so, so the, the, the, the stretch was, are we giving them too much? But they’ve risen to the, to the, to the challenge and they’ve done a great job. I’m so proud of our team. They’ve done such a great job. And they’re continuing to. So I think it’s a good thing that they’re still in, know, they’re still doing the work of the ministry because it to me, it brings credibility when they come to the table with an idea.

Rich Birch — Right.
Lane Lowery — They’re doing it.

Rich Birch — Right.
Lane Lowery — And so the down the only downfall we found is just that I got to be careful that I don’t burn my burn my folks out.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Okay, that’s good. Well, walk us through kind of the decision matrix. This is my language, not your your language, but oftentimes there’s like a global versus campus. There’s like, okay, where who gets to own what? What about local expression versus we’re doing this together as a church? What decisions are campus level by default? What’s get what’s get escalated across the entire church? Talk us through what that looks like.
Lane Lowery — Sure, sure. Well, we we have an executive leadership team and it consists of our senior pastor, Dr. McKinley. It consists of our our Grovetown, each of our campus pastors. ah Pastor Joseph Humphreys is on our Grovetown campus. Pastor Steven Newman is on our Belvedere campus. Pastor Andrew Skelton is on our Crossbridge campus. And then, of course, Andrew Bryan, our other executive pastor. So every Monday we we meet together and everything is funneled through that.
Lane Lowery — So we are constantly every Monday at two. We’re going we’re going to meet every Monday at two o’clock. And, um, and, and so therefore, you know, everything runs through that filter whenever, whenever we’re together. Our senior pastor and executive lead team that they set the vision. We set the vision for the church and the ministry and, you know, an easy example of ah of a global decision and how it translates to the campus level is like our life group ministry, Sunday school, if you will, our life group ministry.
Lane Lowery — We believe that, that biblical community is essential. And we expect every church campus to have a strategy to offer and promote promote life group ministry. You know, when a life group happens to determine, you know, it’s happened to determine at the campus level, you know, like, for example, Grovetown, all of their life groups meet off campus because they don’t have education space throughout the week.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Lane Lowery — So they all of their life groups are in homes during the week. Our other three campuses, we have a hybrid model where we have some groups on campus and some groups off campus. But at the end of the day, we’re going to do life group. We believe that’s a stack pole ministry, just like we’re going to have worship on Sunday morning. We are going to offer life groups. You can offer them on Sunday morning or you can offer them in in homes during the week. But we are going to offer life groups.
Lane Lowery — So that’s kind of one of those big picture things that that we are that we make sure is happening on each of our campuses that we’re intentional about that. We are intentionally trying to get people from the pew into the life group.
Lane Lowery — It’s a little bit more difficult when you take them from um you know being on campus versus in homes. You’ve got to be a little more intentional about it. But to me, that’s that’s one of those big picture items that that we you know we’re pretty hard, hard pressed. So we’re going to to have life groups.
Rich Birch — So again, I’m I’m trying, cause I know there’s people that are listening in that, that are living in the tension of this and they’re trying to sort this out. Talk me through the kind of, in other contexts, we’ve talked about the dotted line, solid line responsibility. So like, who is the first mover? So there’s something, using your example, there’s something happening in a campus like, hey, we’re not seeing, you know, maybe enough people are experiencing that kind of life group, biblical community. That’s not happening ah well in one campus. Which team is that is going to be the team that’s going to be like, okay, we got to solve this. Is it the global leadership team or the executive team or both, or a combo of both? Or how does that, how does that work together?
Lane Lowery — Yeah, that’s a great question. I’m counting on our global leads having their finger on the pulse of what’s going on with each of their areas of ministry.

Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.

Lane Lowery — You know, singly as as well as globally. Obviously as an executive team, we, we look at statistics every Monday.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Lane Lowery — I’ve got our, I get, I bring a report to that meeting every Monday on attendance on, you know, worship attendance, life group attendance, all of that. So you know, we’re, we’re seeing it as well, but, but I’m counting on my global leads to, to, to, that’s why it’s important that they’re also in the mix, not just leading…

Rich Birch — Right.

Lane Lowery — …but they’re also in the mix with it. So I’m counting on them to, to bring to us any issues or problems they may be facing or any hurdles that they need to try to get over. And then we can speak into that and help them do that. But that’s why we can’t be all places at all times, but, but that’s why we have teams that are doing that. So that’s really, has really helped.
Lane Lowery — And, and also going to this global leadership model, it’s it’s allowed us to employ more people into ministry who, like i said, aren’t just task people. They’re casting vision, said leading, and and so we’re counting on them to do that.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Okay. That’s good. How do you, um, kind of an adjacent issue, the global leadership team is the expectation that they’re getting out and seeing other campuses, like actually getting onto other locations on Sundays. What does that, what’s the rhythm look like on that front?
Lane Lowery — Yeah, that’s fantastic. Honestly, yes, Rich, they we need them to. And what we’ve challenged our staff to do, and it’s hard because like I said, you got enough to say grace over in your own on your own campus on a Sunday morning…

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Lane Lowery — …but we’ve challenged all of our staff to try to get to another campus at least one time during the year. That’s all staff people. That’s not just the global leads. That’s, you know, that’s a you know Beth Power, our our our Augusta preschool director, I’d love for Beth to be able to put her eyes on each of our campuses at least one time during during during the year. And they’re doing that.

Rich Birch — Right.
Lane Lowery — And when they do, it it brings greater you know unity. And she sees ideas. Every time I go to a new one of our other campuses, I see them doing something new. It’s so cool to see. Like I said, we’ve got incredibly gifted leaders and they’re smart and they’re doing great stuff. But I would never know about it if I didn’t go get on one of their campuses.
Lane Lowery — But we got to be intentional about it. It doesn’t just happen. Like I said, on Sunday morning, my home base, if you would be, is on the Augusta campus. But I’ve got to make myself say, no, I’m going to I’m going not be signed up for any new duties that this Sunday. I’m going to go to the Crossbridge campus this Sunday.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Lane Lowery — But it’s got to be an intentional. It’s like putting it on your calendar. I’ve got to do that or it won’t happen.
Rich Birch — Yeah, you got to plan for it. Yeah, absolutely.
Lane Lowery — So we constantly talk to our staff about doing that, especially for our global leads. I have to have them doing that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. That’s great. Pivoting in a kind of a slightly different direction, but talking about obviously these same issues, um you had passed along a document that caught my attention, the eight essential practices document that really defines, talks through, you you know the behaviors really of your team. Talk us through how has this these eight essential practices, how have they helped really take this kind of thing from being like, those are nice ideas sitting on a wall somewhere…

Lane Lowery — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …to like actually making a difference in the way you operate. Talk us through this and we’ll put it, we’ll link to this in the show notes for folks that are listening in.
Lane Lowery — Sure, sure. Well, what you said is exactly what we didn’t want to happen. This came out of a strategic leadership meeting that our executive team went on almost two years ago now. And that’s what we, you know, you’ve done this too. You know, you’re an XP.
Lane Lowery — You go to a conference, something you get some great stuff and you and you bring it back. And next thing you know, it’s in a folder or it’s up on your shelf. We didn’t want to do that. So what we do, this is, so we constantly celebrate it. When we see somebody doing it, we celebrate it. Every person who is hired during the onboarding process, this is part of the onboarding process. They get a copy of this and their leader, their supervisor reviews it with them.
Lane Lowery — We do biannual reviews. We have review in March and in April, excuse me, September and and in April. And our September review is literally, they are reviewed on how they are um working through the eight essential practices.

Rich Birch — That’s great.
Lane Lowery — Each of these are on that review and we walk through that with them and we talk through that with them. You know, so, so we, like I said, so we make sure that that that we are, it but it’s becoming a part of our DNA. It’s only two years old, but it really is now becoming our DNA.
Lane Lowery — We send out a a monthly email um staff email, because again, you’ve got so much going on try to keeping trying to keep everyone informed of what’s going on, upcoming events. We celebrate birthdays and and you know staff anniversaries. And we always highlight a an eight essential, somebody who who’s done the eight essential practices.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Lane Lowery — Plus there’s always a link in that, Rich, that if you see somebody doing that, you can click on that link and type up a little synopsis, you know sharing some information, how they saw so-and-so, you know, exhibiting one of these practices. So we’re really trying to push this in, making it part of our DNA.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it. It’s so good. One of the ones that caught me, there’s a lot of—friends, I would encourage you to check out this document and go and do likewise. You know, don’t rip off their stuff, but come up with your your own on this. But one of the ones that caught my attention was ah connect with people.
Rich Birch — So one of the misnomers about very large churches like yours is that people aren’t connected, that it’s just everybody coming to the show. That’s actually statistically not true. Churches over 2,000 have a higher percentage of people connected to small groups and in volunteering opportunities than a church under 200. What specific behaviors do you expect from your staff to keep the ministry as high touch as possibly can as a large church?
Rich Birch — And how do you, how does it measure that? What’s that actually look like?
Lane Lowery — Sure. Great question, man. That’s a great question. We always use the word, in order to grow bigger, we got to grow smaller. Obviously, we got to get people in life groups and in that small group community. But we place a high value on our First Impressions Team ministry. And therefore, we have paid. We have a paid person who oversees our F.I.T. ministry—First Impressions Team—on each of our campuses because it’s so important, especially on a large church.
Lane Lowery — You know, we’ll have over 2000 people on the Augusta campus on Sunday morning. We want people to be seen and known and welcomed. And so we call every first time guest. Now, on typical Sunday, we’ll have 70 first time guest guests across our our four campuses, but they will get a personal phone call within that week.

Rich Birch — Yeah, love it.
Lane Lowery — We we make sure that that it’s happening within that week. And our Connections Pastor helps facilitate that. So we have, you know, first time you know guest calls. If you’re a first time guest on a campus, we give you a gift and we we want to engage with them. We still visit people in the hospitals.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Lane Lowery — We place a high priority on that, Rich. We you know we’ve got hospital lists from each of our campuses and we we have a person we have you know pastors on staff who go visit folks in hospitals. We pray with people before surgeries. We visit our shut-in our shut-in members. And so we we really do place a high value on that.
Lane Lowery — One of the best things is our senior pastor has a gift of shepherding. He’s a pastor shepherd. And so he exhibits that behavior as well. But it is a high value for us. And we spend time talking about it and we invest money in it.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. I love that. Friends, I want to underline something. You blew over it really quick, but I want to underline something here. You talked about 70, you know, guests a week, all getting personal calls.
Rich Birch — I’ve said this in other contexts. You know, we’ve talked about that kind of thing being a best practice. Like, hey, we’ve got to reach out to people. We can’t just send them an email. We got to try to connect. So friends, that’s over 3,500 calls a year that this church is doing. That’s a commitment to, I’ve had churches much smaller than your church say, there’s no way we can organize to call five people a week, 10 people a week.
Rich Birch — Friends, you got to do that kind of thing. That’s what a great inspiration for us. Another one of these, again, friends, check the link below that really caught my eye was, I don’t think I’ve ever seen this in a change document quite, or like a culture document like, like this.
Rich Birch — You said leverage change to move the mission. It talks about the idea of how flexibility and kind of looking for what’s going to you know need to be adapted in the future is embedded in your staff culture. So what did you stop doing? What’s that look like? How are you simplifying?
Lane Lowery — Yeah.
Rich Birch — I love that that’s embedded right in your staff essentials. Love that.
Lane Lowery — Well, I mean, something immediately came to mind is we changed our worship times, you know, um and and that’s no, I mean, that’s a…
Rich Birch — It’s a big deal.
Lane Lowery — …pretty big deal, but we changed our worship times on all four of our campuses. And two of our campuses, we added more time between the worship services so that they could onload and offload their campuses. Because of, so you know, praise God. I mean, it’s a winner’s problem, you know, because so many people are coming.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Lane Lowery — So at the end of the day, we said, you know, the we loved our our original times, but we we had to do something different to help with the with the growth situation. So we changed our worship times and you know and went through that whole process of doing that across. And we even allowed ourselves to allow different campuses to to to to set up times that’s bet that best fits them.
Lane Lowery — You know i’m saying? We’re not like, well, bless God, everybody’s going to do it at this time, at that time. We’re saying, look, what what works best in your individual context? So we you know that’s what we did. We just that that was the thing that came to my mind immediately. That’s something we just did within the last year was change those worship times. And it made sense. Because we were setting away how we did it for many, many years, but it’s worked really well.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Well, I love how, you know, what you’re hearing, friends that are listening in, you’re hearing, here’s a church that took some bold steps to try to change their structure, to try to better have their structure better serve where they were as a church and looking to the future, which is fantastic. I think inspiration for lots of us as we’re thinking about those kinds of issues.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I want to leverage you as a coach. Let’s say there’s a church listening in today who knows, maybe it’s an XP of a church of 1500. And they’re like, gosh, we know that maybe our structure not working. We’re at that, you know we’ve launched a couple locations. We’re trying to stretch to three or four. We’ve got vision for that.
Rich Birch — What would be some first steps, maybe 30 day, 60 day, 90 day steps that you would suggest that a church leader would take based on where you’ve gone through as you’ve kind of, um you know, reoriented your structure, tried to get better on this front. Help us think about that.
Lane Lowery — That’s a great question, Rich. First, I think you got to be willing to admit your structure is outdated or it’s not working.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Lane Lowery — You know, change is hard and and and, you know, not a whole lot of people like change, but it’s one of our essentials. So we’ve we’ve got to be able to embrace it and be willing to to look at things differently.

Lane Lowery — Second, I think your leadership um has to be willing to change.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Lane Lowery — You know, you you know, if if one guy on the staff wants to do it but no one else does. Well, that’s that’s gonna be tough. Third, you you need to identify where you currently are and where you want to go and the why behind It’s kind of like the old statement where you start with the end in mind.
Lane Lowery — You know, don’t, I don’t think you need to change just for this you know to change, but if something’s not working, and and you need to you need to know the why. If this it’s not, then you got to be willing to embrace it and and work to make the change.
Lane Lowery — Next, I think you got to develop a new leadership structure that’ll help you accomplish your desired outcome. Look at what you’re doing. I called a number of churches before we did this.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s good.
Lane Lowery — I mean, I really cut and looked and I saw some things that were happening. I tell you, Family Church down in for yeah down in West Palm is doing a great job. And honestly, I modeled our ministry after what they’re doing.
Rich Birch — Yeah, love it.
Lane Lowery — It fits us, our context.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.
Lane Lowery — But they had it figured out, man. And I’m not afraid to go find out you know what other people are doing. That’s that’s winning.
Rich Birch — 100%.
Lane Lowery — Then seek buy-in from your key leaders and stakeholders. What we did was was once we started, you know, developing this structure, I went to those those those team leads that we had identified. And I sat down and myself and Andrew Bryan, our other executive pastor, sat down and had conversation with them. And we really shared with them the why, because guess what? We’re getting ready to add a bunch of stuff to their plate. And and and they had to I had to have their buy in before it to work. And praise the Lord, they all bought in, man. They saw their they saw the need for it. They felt the pain of not doing it.
Lane Lowery — So, you know, so we we met with we took the time to have hour long meetings with all of those key stakeholders and they got and got their buy-in. And finally, we made the change. You know, we just finally had to jump and do it.
Rich Birch — What was the timeline, you know, in your from like, hey, I think we need to make a change through research phase all the way through to adoption? How long did that process take?
Lane Lowery — I’m embarrassed to tell you about a year. I would figure it’s something like that.
Rich Birch — No, that’s not unreal.
Lane Lowery — Yeah.
Rich Birch — I say that because it’s like, it doesn’t it it can’t happen overnight if you’re going to do it well.

Lane Lowery — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know and and you’ve got to walk people through it. That does that makes sense. So about a year, that that’s good. What part of it was the longest piece of the the puzzle?
Lane Lowery — Figuring out exactly how it would work in our context. You know, I saw what Family Church was doing there. Now no they’re, I think they’re up to 15 campuses or something like that.
Rich Birch — Right.
Lane Lowery — But I saw, you know, and so seeing what they were doing as well as some other churches and then saying, OK, how can this really work for Warren Church? How can it really? And so really figuring that out and then presenting that to our our our senior pastor and our our global pastors. Because at the end of the day, their people are are are going to have to take on more responsibility and do some things. And so getting getting there buy-in. And the cool thing, that was a pretty quick buy-in on their part.
Lane Lowery — And then implementing it. So just developing that whole structure and showing the need for it and then implementing it was about about about a year.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. That that you know that doesn’t surprise me at all. I think it takes time to work it through. I love the idea of listening to other churches. Obviously, that’s actually at the core of why we started this podcast was you know we’re 800 and some odd episodes in. I really do think, man, there’s ah we should be working together as a body of Christ…

Lane Lowery — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and somebody else has faced most of the problems that we face as a church. Let’s go find them, talk with them, ask those questions.

Rich Birch — So this has been fantastic. As we come to kind of land today’s episode, anything else you’d love to share? Any kind of final words or encouragements that people might be listening in today?
Lane Lowery — Yeah, I think, Rich, I think that the biggest thing is communication, you know, amongst our staff.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Lane Lowery — You know, we we we’ve grown so much, which has been incredible. And we’ve added so many more staff members. And and I know a lot of people don’t like meetings and I don’t like to have meetings for the sake of meeting. That’s why I encourage every person if you’re gonna have a meeting, make sure you have an agenda, make sure you have a set time, but but you gotta get together.

Lane Lowery — And and so I think the biggest thing that’s helped us to make for this move to be successful. And it has been successful. I’m really encouraged by that is, is we have an executive leadership meeting every Monday at two o’clock.
Lane Lowery — Our global leaders meet twice a month. Our global leaders meet with their teams twice a month.
Rich Birch — That’s so good.
Lane Lowery — Every campus has a Tuesday at two o’clock staff meeting every week. And and that’s for some people go, my gosh, that’s that’s six meetings. But yeah, it it is. But they’re meetings with purpose.

Rich Birch — Yep, that’s good.

Lane Lowery — And and they’re not, you know, three and a half hour meetings there, you know, 45 minutes to an hour um with with an agenda, with action steps. When the meeting’s over, people walk out of there knowing what the next thing with what the next thing is.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Lane Lowery — But being willing to do that and seeing that that it really is important because there’s so many moving parts. And if we’re not all on the same page, something’s going to break down.
Rich Birch — 100%.
Lane Lowery — But it it takes getting together face-to-face, you know, email when you when you need to, but those face-to-face meetings are really important.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I agree. Totally. And well And even the way you’re thinking about it there, I think is critical for folks to lean in on is thinking clearly on kind of what the system of meetings is, like when is the best time to have the right meeting? I love the idea of like, hey, all are the thing like you’ve said, hey, our campus teams all have a Tuesday at two meeting. It’s like predictable. We know exactly.
Rich Birch — We’ve got to make this we’ve got to make the rhythm of what we do the weekly. Hey, every weekend so it comes, whether we like it or not…

Lane Lowery — Yes, sir.

Rich Birch — …use that rhythm to help us push the culture forward rather than being kind of overwhelmed by it.

Rich Birch — Well, Lane, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate you investing time in us today. If people want to connect with you or connect with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Lane Lowery — Yeah, just go to Warren.Church, and that that’s our website. And you connect with me right there my on the staff page. My email address LaneL at Warren.Church.
Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much, Lane. Appreciate being here today, sir.
Lane Lowery — Blessings to you, Rich. Thank you.

**From 300 to 2,500: Building a Leadership Pipeline That Fuels Growth with Chris Vaught** Sep 25, 2025

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by **Dr. Chris Vaught**, lead pastor of **Connection Point Church** (CPC) in Missouri. Under his leadership, CPC has grown from 300 people in 2011 to over 2,500 today across multiple campuses. With a passion for raising up the next generation of kingdom leaders, Chris has built a leadership development pipeline and launched the Connection Point Leadership College to multiply impact far beyond the church walls.

Is your church struggling to develop leaders and sustain growth? In this episode, Chris shares how the church equips volunteers, creates leadership pathways, and empowers everyday people to lead with clarity and purpose.

**Raise the bar for volunteers.** // At Connection Point, volunteers aren’t just an extra set of hands—they are recognized as unpaid staff. Each role comes with a written job description outlining time commitments, responsibilities, and cultural values. This kind of intentionality elevates ownership, raises expectations, and ultimately increases the sense of purpose among those serving. Volunteers rise to the challenge when treated with dignity and entrusted with meaningful responsibility.

**Find your Timothy.** // Each staff member should develop a “Timothy”—a person they’re investing in who could step into their role if needed. This mindset of multiplication ensures continuity and creates a built-in culture of mentorship. By identifying and pouring into potential leaders, churches develop stronger teams and deeper bench strength over time.

**Four-Step Discipleship Path.** //Chris and his team designed a clear discipleship and leadership journey: **Starting Point** (intro to church/DNA)**, Life Groups** (discipleship) or **Serve Teams** (leadership development), **Equip Workshops** (10-week leadership training), and the **Leadership College** (10month internship program). This structured progression gives people consistent next steps for growth.

**Connection Point Leadership College.** // At the top of CPC’s leadership pipeline is its 10-month internship program, designed for both future church leaders and marketplace leaders. Full-time interns spend two days a week in intensive theology and leadership training, alongside hands-on departmental experience. A hybrid model allows working adults to participate online. In partnership with Evangel University, graduates earn 12 college credit hours.

**Marketplace and ministry**. // The Leadership College trains vocational leaders, but marketplace discipleship is equally critical. Leadership competencies are meant to extend into schools, businesses, sports teams, and families. This mobilizes the congregation to carry out ministry wherever they live and work, not just inside the church.

**Identify leadership types**. // Drawing from Larry Osborne, Chris distinguishes between “big L leaders,” who drive growth and innovation, and “shepherds,” who nurture and care for people. Both are vital to church health. Place leaders strategically based on these traits to maximize impact and sustainability.

**Develop a leadership pathway**. // The number one gift to give your Timothy is an investment in them. Sit down with them and talk. Ask how you can pray for them and care for them. Then give a quick update of what is going on and teach them some leadership competency. Help them build confidence in their leadership and celebrate with them.

To learn more about Connection Point Church and their Leadership College, visit yourcpc.church

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone***

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited for today’s conversation. I know I say that lots, but I really mean it today. We’re talking about an area that I think, frankly, lots of our churches should be leaning in on and learning more about and asking the question, how can we improve this area? Excited to have Dr. Chris Vaught with us. We got a doctor on the episode today.
Rich Birch — He’s the lead pastor of Connection Point Church. This is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And if I’m counting correctly, Currently two campuses in Missouri. They have a passion for raising up the next generation of kingdom leaders and they’ve developed the Connection Point Leadership College. Super excited to have you on the show today, Chris. Thanks for being here.
Chris Vaught — Hey, I’m excited, Rich. So excited to be here and get to share a little bit about what God’s doing with us. And of course, we’re constantly learning from you and all the other great hosts or leaders you have on your podcast with you and just excited and humbled to be to be able to share a little bit of our story. So thanks.
Rich Birch — Well, yeah, I’m, I’m excited to have you and to have, you know, I really do think this is going to be an area. I know a lot of us are wrestling with how do we do this well? How do we develop leaders? And, but, but kind of, you know, tell us a bit of the story, kind of set the table for us. Tell us about Connection and you know, what, you know, if what, if we were to come this weekend, what would we experience? Give us a kind of a flavor of the church. Talk us through that a little bit.
Chris Vaught — Yeah, so Connection Point Church, we’re located in Jackson, Missouri. We’re about two hours south of St. Louis, down toward the Boot Hill, is what the area calls it, right. Just outside of Cape Girardeau. So there’s, between Cape Girardeau and Jackson, total driving distance around the church, you know, 20 minutes. We’ll probably lean in to around 70,000 people. Jackson itself is a small town of 15,000.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Chris Vaught — But it’s ah it’s very it’s it’s a very fast growing area as far as young families moving in. The school systems are excellent. Sports teams, Southeast Missouri University is over in Cape Girardeau. And so um so there’s a lot of energy in the area.
Chris Vaught — And so for CPC, we’ve actually kind of designed all our ministries to fit the mode of this area. I’m a firm believer we should bloom where we’re planted, right? And so how can we get into this community? And over over the ah the past 14 years, that’s been our goal.
Chris Vaught — We came here in 2011 and church was running about 300 the time. We had a traditional service and a contemporary service and was just trying the church was just trying to feel that piece out and what that looked like and how to get into the community.
Chris Vaught — And God just began to put the pieces together in 2012. We we changed our name to Connection Point because we wanted the people in the community to know what our church was about. I mean, there’s churches, you know, on every corner in our area. And so what set this church apart? What is our niche? And we wanted it to be about connections.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — Number one, a connected relationship with Christ. And then, relationships with people. So ah throughout the past 14 years, that’s become our emphasis, right? Getting out in the community, making those connections, and then making sure that the relationship with Christ is real and personal, not just religion.
Chris Vaught — We’re a very religious area. So we wanted really to build off of the relationship aspect. So from that, okay, so by 2019, we had bought 28 acres across town, built a new campus, and we moved into this campus with about 800 people in 2019.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Absolutely.
Chris Vaught — So we we made a lot of transitions from 2011 to 2019, and we’d grown from 300 to about 800. Of course, we all know what happened with 2020 and and covid. That all came four months after we built this brand new campus.
Rich Birch — Oh no. Perfect timing. Perfect timing.
Chris Vaught — I was literally teaching the membership class. We call it Starting Point…
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Chris Vaught — …to get new people connected to the church, when the phone call came into the church…
Rich Birch — Yes.
Chris Vaught — …that the government, the governing leaders of Missouri was asking the churches to stop meeting in public because of COVID.
Rich Birch — Wow. Right.
Chris Vaught — And I was teaching the membership class when that night, when that came in. I mean, I was teaching and my staff was in the back waving me down, said, hey, we just got a message.
Rich Birch — Oh my goodness.
Chris Vaught — I was like, are you kidding me?
Rich Birch — Wow. You’re giving me a little PTSD here. That’s those are those are dark days, man. That was, you know, hard to look back on.
Chris Vaught — They were, man. But you know what? Our income jumped 18% over the four months that we were shut down because our our people just built this building.
Rich Birch — Right.
Chris Vaught — They were scared we were going to lose it.
Rich Birch — Right. Wow. They leaned in nothing like adverse advert. Uh, can’t say that word adverity to draw people in. That’s amazing.
Chris Vaught — Yeah, they they jumped in, man. That was incredible. Came back. We came back actually, I think Father’s Day weekend or right after Father’s Day that June to back in-person services. When we came back, we came back with 600 people.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.
Chris Vaught — So building back on that foundation of 600, what God did next was absolutely phenomenal to us. So from 2021, we’d gotten back up to 1100. From 2022 to 2024, we doubled in size.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Chris Vaught — And today, if you came here this weekend, there’ll be there’ll be a little over 2500 people on the campus.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. Praise God.
Chris Vaught — And three services, and then we have about 30 miles away, 10 months ago, we launched our first multisite campus.
Chris Vaught — And I have to tell you, Rich, about this campus. It’s 30 miles away.
Rich Birch — Yeah.

Chris Vaught — It’s in the second poorest county of our state.
Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.
Chris Vaught — It’s in a town of 1,700 people, a county of 10,000 people. And God has blessed that little campus
Rich Birch — Wow.

Chris Vaught — And it’s been the largest church in the county since day one.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Chris Vaught — And they’re running about 350 in a town of 1700.
Rich Birch — That’s amazing. That’s incredible.
Chris Vaught — So we have this motto.
Rich Birch — Praise God.
Chris Vaught — We want see God do something only he can get the credit for.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Chris Vaught — And to be honest, right now, that’s that’s what you that’s what we’re seeing. But that’s the atmosphere you feel if you were to come on the campus this weekend. There’s just that anticipation.
Rich Birch — Wow. Well, that’s incredible to hear. And, you know, it’s, it does seem like that kind of post COVID. I know it’s like, I don’t know at what point we’re going to stop saying that kind of thing, but like, it’s a big deal obviously. And, and it’s like an inflection point we all went through. And it does seem like post COVID there was like, they at one point they were talking about the K recovery that there was like, some churches have come out not doing well. They’re struggling. And there are churches like Connection Point that are accelerating.

Rich Birch — And in like an odd sort of way, we look back and are like thankful for that time. We say something happened there that focused us. And we came back with, you know, even more, you know, drive and and all of that, which is amazing to hear. But I can imagine in the midst of all that kind of getting to where we’re we’re talking about today, talk, you know, developing leaders, trying to scale up. Every church has a problem finding leaders. How do i get people to actually take the ministry and run with it?
Rich Birch — You’ve made some changes on this front that, you know, have really helped, I think, accelerate some of this growth. But why don’t you talk us through when what’s that look like for you in the last couple of years?
Chris Vaught — Yeah, so coming in right just before COVID, we knew as we were growing, we just could sense, you know, hey, this is picking up. God’s given some good opportunities. We have to spread this out. we’re We’re in Southeast Missouri.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — This is not a hotbed for people who don’t move here to take on a position. We started thinking through and looking at the New Testament, too. You can only hire out so much, right? Because even though our church has grown fast, budget always comes up last. So you have to look at other avenues other than just, oh, I’ll hire another position. So we started looking in the congregation. We began to develop our own leadership pathway or pipeline to develop, not only volunteers, but our future staff.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — We knew we grew really fast, we need to hire from within, but we still couldn’t hire every position.
Rich Birch — Yep. Right.
Chris Vaught — So we started looking at our volunteers as almost as non-paid staff positions. And so creating an atmosphere of expectation of roles and responsibilities, and also the value of what they’re doing.
Rich Birch — So true.
Chris Vaught — That the kingdom is dependent upon all of us using our gifts and talents. And so we started this pathway. And at first it was simply a challenge to every staff member. You go find your Timothy, you go find one other person that you can invest yourself into—a volunteer—so that if on Saturday night, and here was kind of the criteria for us, if on Saturday night, something were to happen and you catch ah COVID, okay, we’re at that time period or the flu, could this ministry run the next day because of the person you have personally equipped to hold the ministry?
Rich Birch — I love that clarity. Yeah, that’s so good.
Chris Vaught — And we began putting those little pieces says together.
Rich Birch — I love that. So sorry. That’s right. Sorry, you go ahead. I cut you off there. That’s so good.
Chris Vaught — No, no, no. I was just saying that’s this so’s what we began. We began this pipeline, and that’s that was really the basic level at first. Every staff member finding that one Timothy, if you will, if you want to use that terminology, that could run that ministry if you were out.
Rich Birch — I love there’s a lot of clarity there. I love that. Even just the practicality of like, hey, on Saturday night, somebody calls. Who can take this? Who can take your piece? I think that’s that’s so good. Break up a mindset for us. You talk about kind of, you know, use the phrase non-paid staff members. You’re setting a high bar for volunteers, like a high, high calling.
Rich Birch — I think there’s a lot of staff in our churches who are like, oh, like I can’t ask that of a volunteer. I can’t that they’re not, they’re like paid to do other things. And like, man, they either, they are not good enough is the mindset problem. There’s no way they could do it. Or that’s way too much for me to put on them. Break that mindset up for me.
Chris Vaught — Yeah, because we’ve tackled that mindset over and over and over again. Bob Russell, who who I consider to be a mentor in my life, he challenged me years ago, early on in this process. When you’re hiring staff, he would tell his staff at Southeast, if I hire you to to develop and to coach others to do, if I catch you doing, you’re fired, right? I mean, it was that kind of mindset.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Chris Vaught — And getting that across, first of all, to your staff. That it doesn’t have to be 100% of your ability. That our ministry, according to Ephesians 4, is to raise up the congregation to go do the ministry.
Chris Vaught — And now let’s paint a bigger picture of why that’s important. If we have a church of 150 and you’ve got two staff members, you’ve actually got 150 priests of God.
Rich Birch —Right. Yeah, I love it.
Chris Vaught — A royal priesthood. You can do more if they all do 30% of what you can do, spread out over the multitudes, then you can give all week long. And guess what? You don’t have to ruin your marriage or your health in the process. We spread this out.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Chris Vaught — It’s tackling that perfect mindset. The other issues we had to tackle, and you mentioned it, is this, well, I don’t want to ask them to do this. People will rise up to the level of expectation.
Rich Birch — So true.
Chris Vaught — So what we began doing was, is we actually created job descriptions for every volunteer row. And in that job description, it may say, this will require you on a weekly basis, X amount of time. Here’s how you prepare. Here’s who you report to. Here’s what’s expected. And here are the values we want you to conduct yourself with. People respond well to that.
Rich Birch — 100%.
Chris Vaught — People need clarity. People need to know, okay, if I’m gonna serve on the usher team or the parking team or the worship team, here is the level of expectation. They know whether or not they can get into it.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Chris Vaught — It clears up a lot of miscommunication. It makes people feel valued and you can do it in the right way with positivity and motivation.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love the clarity of job descriptions, getting it all written down. I think is is incredible. So, you know, what that it started with this simple idea, a simple idea, hard to execute. I feel like, hey, you find a Timothy, Ephesians 4. But it’s more robust today. When you say pipeline, give me like a simple definition of that. How do you explain that to like somebody who maybe is struggling with it? Maybe a staff member, elder, leader type person. When you say, you know, leadership pipeline, what does that mean? What’s that mental model for you?
Chris Vaught — Yeah, for us, we tell them we’re putting them on a pathway.
Rich Birch — Okay. Love it.
Chris Vaught — You’re here, but we want to put you on a pathway to help mature you and grow you and develop you and your skills that God has already given you, because that’s where you’re going to find fulfillment.
Chris Vaught — That’s where you’re going to find the energy and the motivation to go long term. But this is this is a process of development.
Chris Vaught — ah You know, we come to faith in Christ and we often talk about our salvation like it’s a done deal at one moment, one little prayer, one baptism, you know, now it’s done.
Chris Vaught — Yes, we may be instantly brought into the family of God, but there’s a whole life of sanctification and discipleship and development.
Rich Birch — That’s so true.
Chris Vaught — And so painted is a picture of this exciting pathway that we’re going to be on. And these are just this is a part of your path. We call it the discipleship path. And we kind of just draw it out for our people. We show them, hey, we’re getting ready to take you on a journey. And it’s a lifelong journey.
Chris Vaught — We got I got the concept from the Jewish concept of a disciple to a rabbi called a Talmud.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Chris Vaught — And one of the cool definitions that learned years ago on what is a Talmud, one of the definitions is a Talmud is the shadow of their rabbi.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — In the in the Middle East, they would actually say a disciple knew they had arrived when they were mistaken for their rabbi out in the community.
Rich Birch — Oh, I love that. That’s so good.
Chris Vaught — So think about we are to become like Christ. We should be mistaken for his character, his heart, his attitude, right? But in a much smaller sense, part of that process comes into how we operate in and through the church, how we use our gift sets. The church’s responsibility is to help put them on a path…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Chris Vaught — …to begin to develop what that shadow looks like.
Rich Birch — How do you, so I love that. It’s a very vivid metaphor. What does that look like practically going from metaphor to like, okay, that sounds like the kind of thing I want to be a part of. I want to be a shadow. I want to I want to you know grow. How are you structuring that and and doing that at scale? I think it makes sense in the kind of rabbi, you know, a follower kind of thing. But you know, you’re you’re talking about, you guys have grown by hundreds, thousands of people in the last few years. How have you been able to, to make those two things work? A relational, you know, discipleship experience that is, that is deep, but it has some sort of structure to it. What’s that look like?
Chris Vaught — Yeah, so so the structure is going to be as people are coming into church, are new here, are next steps, so we’re always pushing them to that very first next step, which for us is Starting Point.

Rich Birch — Okay, yep.

Chris Vaught — There they’re learning the DNA and we actually talk this language to them at that introductory night of us explaining, here’s who we are at CPC, here’s our DNA. And we give them that next step. What does that look like?
Chris Vaught — For one, it’s maybe just joining a serve team. Now, not everybody’s ready to join something on a Sunday, but that’s a starting point. And we begin to teach these leadership competencies and explain to them, hey, there’s a path that we want to put you on.
Chris Vaught — Then included with that serve team is something we call Equip Workshops.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Chris Vaught — These are about 10 week workshops. We do two to three times a year where people we market it to the congregation, to our serve teams. They sign up. We’re going to teach you about your circle of influence. How Replicate gave us this concept, um Replicate Ministries, and it’s helping them find their kingdom circle, right?

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — Because everyone has a circle of in influence. And what does that look like as you use your gift sets to serve?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — And so our goal of then is to not only get involved in Sunday Sunday morning or so or weekly serving opportunities here, we want it to stretch beyond. If we’re going to reach our community, I need them and taking the same competencies onto their job.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — I need them to take the same competencies to the traveling sports teams, right, wherever they’re living their life out. Then the next step we introduce them to is our leadership college, Connection Point Leadership College, CPLC. And that’s a 10-month internship program where it is it is straight on leadership, skill, competencies. We tell them, we’re going to teach you as if you’re going into vocational ministry. But we invite people who don’t feel a call to vocational ministry because we tell them, we need disciples living out their gift sets in the secular world, not just inside the church.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — And so there’s two ways of coming into that college, which is one step of it. There is the on-campus intern, where you’re actually taking classes and practical ministry, shadowing, being involved in the ministries here on campus.
Chris Vaught — But then we have a hybrid edition, which is online. And that’s for those who have to work a full-time job, can’t come on the campus, and maybe they’re wanting to learn the biblical leadership competencies, and apply them to the secular world.
Rich Birch — That’s fascinating. I want to come back to the leadership college in a minute. I want to put a bookmark in that, but taking a step back to the serve team and Equip Workshops, talk to me about, like, I think some churches would come to the moment of, like, when they’re trying to get people in connection and connected and into some sort of discipleship relationship, and they would actually push more towards groups, you know, rather than teams.
Rich Birch — Now, I’m not trying to I’m not trying to pick a fight here. Obviously, we want people to do both, but talk to me about that decision around, hey, we’re going to kind of go the team’s route and then add Equip. Because I think it’s a really interesting model of like, then add these workshops, which kind of drives some of that depth discipleship stuff to people who are serving, I’m assuming, but talk us through that.
Chris Vaught — Yeah, so just for clarification, we do we do do life groups as well. But if it’s more for leadership development, we push them toward the serving.
Rich Birch — Yep, that makes sense. Yep, that makes sense.
Chris Vaught — Kind of like two different pockets, if you will.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Chris Vaught — And some are going to switch over to both.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Chris Vaught — Some will start and serve and eventually lead into a life group.
Rich Birch — Okay, that makes sense.
Chris Vaught — Others may start a life group and come over to a serve team. Life groups are going to be a lot more discipleship based while serve teams is discipleship with an emphasis on leadership competencies. Just because the faster we grow, the more we have to make sure we’re developing leaders not just attenders if you will.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Chris Vaught — And discipleship carrying on that serving aspect. So if you looked at if if I drew my pathway out for you on this journey of course you go to Starting Point the next one is either join a life group or a serve team.

Rich Birch — Yeah, OK. Yep.

Chris Vaught — But then if you go into the serve team we’re going to really push you to these kingdom circles and circles of influence and then to the leadership college, if that makes sense.
Rich Birch — That makes total sense. Yep. That makes total sense. Well, let’s talk about the leadership college. Like give me a bit more kind of framework for what that looks like. Is it literally like full-time internship, 10 months, 40 hours a week? Talk us through that.
Chris Vaught — Yeah. So um first of all, we don’t make it easy to attend our leadership college.
Rich Birch — I love it. We’re not going to make it easy. We’re not putting the cookies on the bottom shelf. Love it.
Chris Vaught — We didn’t. And we say it up front.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Chris Vaught — So if you go into this, you’re going into it with intentionality.
Chris Vaught — One of the things I teach from day one is I can teach you competencies. I can’t teach you initiative. And so from the get go, this has got to be something you’re after, you’re coming after, right?
Rich Birch — Right.
Chris Vaught — Because this is the highest level of our training. So it is a full time intern is 10 months. You’re serving every weekend. You for the first six weeks of the internship, you get to go through a discovery phase where we’ll put you in every ministry department for a certain amount of time, let you get exposure. We believe you need exposure. After that, you got to pick a direction, right?
Chris Vaught — And so from then on, you’re here every Tuesday and Wednesday all day.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Chris Vaught — And that those are very in-depth biblical, theological, as well as practical leadership courses. Every morning up until lunchtime in the afternoons, you’re in the department in which you’ve chosen. That’s the avenue that I’m feeling led toward. And you’re going to be working under the leadership of that department. You’re going to learn the skills of that department. You’re going to go to their meetings, their departmental meetings. You’re going involved in activities. And that’s probably where you’re going to serve on the weekends.

Rich Birch — Right.

Chris Vaught — Or through the midweek, depending on what it is.
Rich Birch — Right.
Chris Vaught — So now one of the beautiful things we partner with Evangel University outside of Spring… or in Springfield, Missouri.

Rich Birch — Yep.

They actually looked at our program and said, anyone that wants to come to school here or take online classes, if they go through that leadership program, we’ll give them 12 credit hours of of college.
Rich Birch — Oh, wow.
Chris Vaught — So there’s a bit there for the ones who are looking for more formal education. And we have students who will do that. We have many that just want the leadership competencies here.
Chris Vaught — Some of them are going into vocational ministry and others, as I said, they’re they’re wanting to take it into the secular world. And part of our goal throughout the year is we tell them, we’re not here to convince you what your calling is. We’re here to equip you for whatever God calls you to do.
Rich Birch — Wow. Give me a profile of the a kind of person or a couple, maybe there’s a couple different profiles of people that take that step into the the leadership college. Like is, is that, yeah, like give me a sense of some of the characters that you find in that, ah in that experience, if you know what I mean.
Chris Vaught — You know, this is year number four for us.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Chris Vaught — And it’s so interesting that it’s grown every year.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Chris Vaught — Oh, and by the way, one thing I left out, I told you we don’t make it easy.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Chris Vaught — They pay us $500 to join.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah, yeah. That’s great. Cover the cost. Or not really.
Chris Vaught — So they don’t get paid for this internship and they get all that back and resources.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris Vaught — It’s just a commitment, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Chris Vaught — But last year, it was primarily high school graduates or college age kids that were in our internship program. And we don’t know what the Holy Spirit’s doing.
Chris Vaught — This year, we doubled enrollment. And half of the group, more than half of the group are non-traditional. They’re like, we have a husband and a wife who are both working side jobs on Mondays and Thursdays and Fridays and Saturdays, so they can do the internship together because they’re both seeking what God’s will is for them. So they’re taking a financial hit. And they’ve got children. I mean, they’re having to get childcare so they can be here all day on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Chris Vaught — We’ve got others that are in their mid thirties up into their forties coming to the school. So we’re really watching God do something pretty unique because the the idea, this concept of growing and stretching…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Chris Vaught — …is now reaching beyond just the college age. and we’re And we’re getting into really all age groups. The oldest intern right now that we’ve had was in 56.
Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Yeah, it’s incredible.
Chris Vaught — And he was so phenomenal, we hired him on staff after he graduated.
Rich Birch — That’s great. Well, and we’ve seen this in other, you know, echoes of this in other prevailing churches like Connection Point where um there’s like a high bar and there’s like, and we’re really calling people to say, hey, why don’t you come join the mission? And people respond to that. And, you know, the ripple out impact of that is huge. It’s almost like, you know, there are churches that are struggling and they’re just trying to like, well, we’re just going to make it as easy as we possibly can.
Rich Birch — And there’s something about that that actually repels people, ironically. Or maybe maybe attracts the right people or the wrong people, you know. And this idea of like, hey, we’re going to do something big for you. Like, it’s a lot of work what you’re talking about, pulling that internship together. But it also it’s ah it’s requires a lot from people. That’s ah you know that’s that’s incredible.
Rich Birch — How do you identify like and call out…I get that it’s like, you know, people have to make that choice, but what are, what are, what are you doing? What’s your team doing to identify leaders to kind of help them take steps next in their, you know, in their leadership development, or is it mostly just kind of driven by them? They’re raising their hand.
Chris Vaught — No, I mean, actually you apply for it. You have to go through an interview process.
Rich Birch — Right.
Chris Vaught — And and once we interview you then we kind of help navigate. Yeah, we believe you have the commitment level. You have the spiritual maturity for what you’re about to come into. You know we’re looking at your personality skills. You’re, you know, doing an assessment. And just to make sure, because it is a a commitment, right? And you don’t want to start, not finish. And and we will make sure you got the character for this.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Chris Vaught — Because when you come into a leadership school like this, everyone know, you know, everyone knows that’s one of our interns.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.
Chris Vaught — The your personal disciplines, your character, competencies has to be at a certain level. So we even start there with an interview process. Then beyond that, once you’re in the system, and we learned this from Larry Osborne, there are two primary sides of leadership in every person, right? You’re either going either going to be that what he calls a big L leader, that one that lead the charge, and you know they’re going to drive a ministry or an avenue. Or you’ve got the shepherd.
Rich Birch — Right.
Chris Vaught — And both are needed in the church. And one’s not better than the other, right?
Chris Vaught — Your big L leader, they’re the ones that make things grow. There are two criterias to look for for that big L leader. One, can they make things grow? Everything they touch takes off.

Rich Birch — Right.
Chris Vaught — You know, they’re able to grow it. The second piece is, well, I love how Larry Osborne says, it says it’s the Tom Sawyer effect. And you know the story of Tom Sawyer. Can they can they make people paint the fence for them and thank them for it when they’re done?

Rich Birch — I love that. That’s great.
Chris Vaught — Can they motivate the people around them? Well, if they are, and we recognize that kind of skill, that then gives us direction on how to craft their experience.
Rich Birch — Right.
Chris Vaught — Where we want to emphasize them to be able really maximize those skills to be a big L leader. They’re going to lead a ministry. They may be potential future staff. They may go in a secular world, but they could really make an impact. They’re an entrepreneur, right?
Chris Vaught — The shepherd, if we see that they have the caring gifts, that they’re not the big old leader. They need a system. They need the structure. They’re not going to create themselves, but everybody wants to be around them. They have a heart. They have a care. They’re loving. They’re prayerful. They’re very spiritually deep. That helps us be able to craft their experience in the leadership college.
Chris Vaught — Because again, it’s not about us getting them to do something. It’s them to learn the competencies to be the best of what God has called them to be.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Chris Vaught — And so we kind of kind of keep our eye on that and watch those metrics. Some of that comes through how they respond in classes. It’s how they serve on the weekends. It’s just what a lot of observation pieces as they go through the process.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s cool. So kind of related issue, but more, maybe less of the this the art part part of it, more the science. When you think of metrics or mile markers around this whole area, what are some of the the numbers that kind of come to the fore? Things that you think about like, oh, we got to make sure we’re hitting this. If it’s, this feels, or I know this is healthy when that’s happening. Do you have kind of metrics that you think about on this front?
Chris Vaught — Mainly for us, it’s as as far as any kind of metrics is we’re watching as if the people are taking ownership and are they self-recruiting others, right?
Rich Birch — Sure. Okay.
Chris Vaught — If I have a ministry that’s self-recruiting, constantly growing, like for us, ever since COVID, our media outreach department exploded. We went from an average of 800 unique views on the weekend to now over 6,000 on the weekend.
Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Wow. Yep.
Chris Vaught — So all of sudden we’re like, okay, we’ve really got to keep our eye on the digital marketing media aspect of our church, right? So we judge health by it. How big has that volunteer base grown? Are they replicating, right? I think right now we have 50 volunteers in that ministry.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Chris Vaught — Where they, with a full-time staff of three people, four people, four people. And so, you know, I can’t hire 50 people, but I got to have that kind of a base.
Rich Birch — Right. No.
Chris Vaught — Our kids ministry, you know, our church age dropped dramatically after COVID. It’s all these young families. So our kids numbers are through the roof. So can we, so what’s our volunteer ratio look like there? And are they replicating? Some of the metrics we look at is the volunteer ministry large enough that people can serve one and sit and worship in another.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — If the same volunteers are working every single weekend and they have no time to come and get fed themselves.

Rich Birch — That’s a problem.

Chris Vaught — And and even the ministry department leads, if they can never break away and come into a worship service and get fed themselves, that ministry is not healthy.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Vaught — They need more volunteers and the department heads need to be able to train their team lead who’s underneath them well enough to run a ministry for one service once a month to come into a worship service and get fed themselves. You know that’s just an example.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. So good. Well, this is a great conversation. There’s a ton we could talk about here, but just as we’re we’re wrapping up, if you were to coach, a maybe there’s a leader that’s listening in today and they’re like, gosh, like I know we’re at the place where we got to take that first step. We got to take the, hey, who’s your Timothy?
Rich Birch — What would be some some advice you’d love to give? Maybe it’s like a pothole to avoid or like, here’s something, you know, that kind of early advice I would give you to to get as you’re getting the ball rolling on, you know, on trying to develop a leadership pathway.
Chris Vaught — Yeah, straight up early on, whoever your staff is or your key volunteer leaders are, when they find that Timothy, tell them the number one gift they can give that person is time investment.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — Sit down with them, spend some time with them, and then lead into a competency. And it could be 15 minutes. We do this with our volunteer bases on the weekends. So they gather together for a huddle 15 minutes before their serving opportunity actually begins. And there’s only three pieces that you have to talk about there. One is caring for them. Hey, how can I pray for you? How can I care for you? Because remember, volunteers, it’s not just a job, though you give them responsibility to job, but you’re also a congregation. You’ve got pastoral care. Hey, how can I pray for you?
Chris Vaught — Then a quick update of here’s some things going on. Just keep communication going. Here’s what we need to know for the day. But that third piece that I’m so big on, and you can do this sitting around coffee. It doesn’t have to be a Sunday morning huddle. It could be as you’re building the program. Just but then teach them some leadership competency.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — You don’t have to preach a sermon. It’s just bring that little competency to help them develop and build some confidence. So if you came to one of our huddles like this weekend for 15 minutes, they’re going check up on you. They’re going to share a win. Hey, here’s what God’s doing. Celebrate with them. They’re going to give them a quick little update.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — And then they’re going to share something like, hey, this weekend, our whole theme is we want to create hospitality. So whatever we do today, let’s just all be hospitable.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chris Vaught — And they’ll talk just quick minute about that, right? So as you’re building your teams, as you’re building your pipeline, that’s really all you’re going to want to replicate. Then however large you get, you just keep adding layers to it. But it’s really the same simple structure.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. That’s so clear. This has been great conversation, Chris. I really, really appreciate it. I feel like there’s a bunch more, even just there around huddles, we could jump in on maybe a future podcast. We’ll have you back on or your team back on to talk through ah that piece of the puzzle. Because I think there’s even that alone. I think that’s the thing so many of us, we’ve got to do a better job on or just got to do a better job on.
Rich Birch — Well, Chris, I really appreciate you being here today. As we land the plane, if people want to get in touch with you or get in touch with the church, kind of track with your story, where do we want to send them online?
Chris Vaught — Yeah, you want to send them to yourcpc.church. You can send a message to us just simply by email and info@yourcpc.church. course, you can catch us with that same handle on any social media site, and you can send some direct messages straight our way.
Rich Birch — Love it. It’s great. Thanks so much. Appreciate you being here today, sir.
Chris Vaught — Yeah, I enjoyed it. Thank you so much for the honor.

**Clarity Is Kindness: Simplifying Next Steps in a Growing Church with Ashley Lentz** Sep 18, 2025

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with **Ashley Lentz** from **Lutheran Church of Hope** in Iowa. As the Connections Pastor at one of the largest and fastest-growing churches in the country, Ashley brings a wealth of practical insight into creating personal connection in a growing church.

Struggling to connect new guests and help them take meaningful next steps at your church? Tune in as Ashley unpacks how her team prioritizes clarity, simplifies the path forward, and builds systems that still feel personal—without overwhelming people or staff.

**Offer more than one pathway.** // At a large church like Lutheran Church of Hope, it’s easy for people to feel lost in the crowd. A website can’t be the only entry point. While it’s useful, relying solely on digital tools can confuse guests. People often want a conversation—not a scavenger hunt. Churches must create multiple, intuitive connection points beyond online portals.

**Four paths of the Hope Circle.** // Lutheran Church of Hope staff uses an internal tool called *The Hope Circle* to identify where people are in their discipleship journey and help them take next steps. The circle starts with *Seekers*, for people who are exploring what Jesus is about. Next are *Believers*, identified as people who have heard the message and are into Jesus, but don’t know what to believe or do next. *Followers* have been transformed by Christ and wanting to actively live out their faith. Finally is a *Servant Leader* – a mature believer leading and serving others through their transformed life.

**Start with Alpha.** // Ashley recommends Alpha as a go-to starting point for anyone in the Seeker, Believer, or Follower stage. For Seekers, it provides the foundational answers they need. Believers benefit from a supportive community. And Followers get a refresher and grow more confident in sharing their faith. This simple, effective course has proven to be a unifying tool across spiritual stages.

**Personal relationships at scale.** // Despite its size, Hope prioritizes personal touches. The “New to Hope” area is centrally located, staffed with volunteers in bright orange vests, and offers a free t-shirt to first-time guests. Visitors fill out a connection card (paper or digital) and are invited into further conversation, tours, or ministry introductions. Automated systems send follow-up emails and texts, but staff personally respond to replies to ensure people feel seen and valued.

**The power of serving.** // Serving is one of Hope’s primary pathways to connection. Volunteer opportunities—such as hospitality, communion, or the café—allow people to engage while they’re already attending worship. Serving builds natural community, makes a large church feel smaller, and creates discipleship opportunities in the context of teams. Ashley notes that service can be a more accessible first step than joining a class, particularly for busy families.

**Clarity is kindness.** // One of Ashley’s key takeaways is that clarity is crucial. Large churches can easily overwhelm people with too many programs. Recently, Hope streamlined its discipleship offerings, moving some content online and focusing attention on core pathways like Alpha, Foundations, and Tuesday night programming. By simplifying options and communicating them consistently, Hope has made it easier for people to know what to do next.

**Metrics and insights.** // Ashley has observed consistent patterns: from sign-up to actual attendance, about 20% drop off; and from week one to week four of a class, roughly 40% of participants fall away. To address this, Hope emphasizes shorter class cycles and practical on-ramps. These metrics help them refine offerings while staying realistic about engagement.

Learn more about Lutheran Church of Hope at www.lutheranchurchofhope.org and email Ashley.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe***

Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward.

Check them out at Risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help.

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Well, hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I’m super excited for today. We’ve got a church that I’ve been tracking for quite a while and excited to have a leader from there on. But then I know this is an area that so many of our churches are struggling with, and it’s kind of like an area that you might not be aware that you’re struggling with. And so I’m hoping that we open up a discussion today to help that will move you to really make some changes that will ultimately see your church help people get connected to it.
Rich Birch — Today we have ah Ashley Lentz. She’s the Connections Pastor at Lutheran Church of Hope. It’s one of the fastest growing in the churches yeah churches in the country with, I believe, seven campuses, if I’m counting correctly, in Central Iowa.
Ashley Lentz — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Iowa. Sorry, it’s early in the morning, getting my lips going here, friends, ah multiple smaller local sites and opportunities to join online. They actively partner with and support other churches through their Hope Network. Super excited to have you on the episode today, Ashley. Welcome.
Ashley Lentz — Thanks, Rich. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here and help in whatever ways I can and just share, share what we learn.
Rich Birch — Nice. Why don’t, for people that don’t know, kind of paint a picture of Hope today, kind of tell us a little bit about the church and your role as a Connections Pastor.
Ashley Lentz — Yes, you described Hope beautifully. We are located in the metro Des Moines area of Iowa.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Ashley Lentz — So Des Moines is our capital for those who don’t know. And like you said, we have seven campuses and a whole bunch of local sites, is what we call them, and partner with churches all around the country to simply help them do ministry and meet them where they are.

Ashley Lentz — And so ah Hope is, we would call it a multi-site megachurch, right? But it very much feels like I’ve grown up in the Hope, what I would call the Hope system, the Hope Network. I did our middle school and high school ministry here and came back to be a pastor here.

Ashley Lentz — And so um I think we do a really beautiful job of reaching people where they are and inviting them into ah something deeper, but also meeting them where they are and saying like, if this is where you’re at, like we will, we will meet you there and walk alongside you and wherever you are in your faith journeys.
Ashley Lentz — So my role as a Connections Pastor is just that. I get to meet people where they are and help them navigate ah what is next in their faith journey. We worship at our campus, the larger campus here in West Des Moines. We worship about 7,000 in person weekly. And my favorite way to meet them as a Connections Pastor is truly to have one-on-one conversations.
Ashley Lentz — And sometimes that happens you know during weekend worship. Sometimes it happens during the week at other things. um But that’s what I love doing is getting to know people, helping them find the next best step for them in their faith journey and making a really large church seem intimate, seem like a ah community that is for them and finding a place where they can really feel like they belong…

Rich Birch — So good.

Ashley Lentz — …not just fit in, but where they can belong here.
Rich Birch — Well, for friends that have been tracking with for with me for a while, they know this is like a passion area for me. I’m super excited to learn from you, clearly an expert in the field. And you mentioned it, you know, one of your campuses is 7,000, multiple thousands in the other locations.
Rich Birch — It’s a large church by all, you know, all, you know, metrics, probably the top 0.2 to 5% of churches in the country. ah And, you know, when a church like yours is attracting thousands of people coming through the doors every single weekend, you know, helping them take the next step can be difficult. And one of the misnomers that I, that bug me is I know that a church like yours is very good at connecting people. That is a part of the reason why you’re the size you are. But there are challenges that you run into trying to connect with people at scale. I love that you started with, I love to connect one-on-one. I’m like, how do you do that at a so church that size. But what are some of those challenges? Talk me through why is it so hard at scale to connect with people?
Ashley Lentz — For sure. We do not do this perfectly. I’ll be the first to say that. And it’s important that anybody listening knows we do not have this completely figured out.
Rich Birch — Sure.
Ashley Lentz — I will just tell you where we’ve been and some of the challenges we faced and what we do in the midst of those challenges to just navigate them as best we can, because we’re still figuring things out too.
Ashley Lentz — One of the biggest struggles that we have is communicating effectively. When you have the the size of staff that we have, and by no means do we have a massive staff. I think many of our staff, people would tell you we’re probably understaffed. We could always use more. But we have so much programming. A lot of it is volunteer led. I help lead our women’s ministry and I have women facilitators leading those classes.
Ashley Lentz — But we have things happening every day of the week in every ministry area. So it is hard to effectively communicate where I want people to plug in. Because it’s easy to say, hey, check out the website. Everything is listed on there. But really quickly, people get overwhelmed by that.

Rich Birch — So true.
Ashley Lentz — And that’s one of, again, that’s one of the things that love is I tell people, come talk to me. Some people love that. They’re like, yeah, would love to sit in chat. And other people are like, no, let me just navigate the website and figure it out on my own.
Rich Birch — Love it. Yes.
Ashley Lentz — But when you have so many things, they’re all great. It is hard to effectively communicate. Here’s what we find most important. Here’s what we would say. Start here and then do these kinds of things.
Ashley Lentz — Prescribing a discipleship journey is really hard. And probably not effective because everybody’s on a different journey.

Rich Birch — Right.

Ashley Lentz — So we do like to offer, like we just have different offerings and I get to help people navigate season of faith, season of life, and what might meet them where they are right now and be an effective discipleship pathway for them. Yep.
Rich Birch — Okay. I’d love to unpack that a little bit more. You talk about, and there’s a great description. We’ve got lots of different things going on, lots of different ministries, ah and but we’ve got to simplify it. You didn’t quite least say that. You said, we got to start here. We have to you know make it kind of really obvious or have pathways. What does that look like in practice? Help us understand how you’re doing that.

Ashley Lentz — Yes. One of the tools that we use, and it is very much an internal tool is what I would call it. We call it the Hope circle. And it is what I would call a discipleship tool or discipleship pathway. And if I were to say that to our congregation members, they would really have no idea what I’m talking about. It is very internal. But it’s helpful to identify where people are on this Hope circle.

Ashley Lentz — And so the circle starts with being a seeker. At a church our size, we have people every weekend who have zero idea what the church thing is about. They’ve maybe never been introduced to Jesus. Someone just invited them to church. They maybe knew they needed church and walked in the door, but have no idea what to expect. And so they are seeking something that has been missing in their life. And so ah helping people identify if that’s where you are, here are kind of the very preliminary places that would be helpful for you to start plugging in.
Ashley Lentz — As we move around that circle, we get to believers, people who are like, okay, I’m bought into the Jesus thing. I’ve heard the message. I believe. Now what? Like, I I want to understand this better. Like, I believe in Jesus. I believe in God. Like, I’m here for it, but I don’t really know the things. So where do we go from there and how do we help them then move into like being super excited about Jesus? Like, I don’t just believe like I’m on fire for Jesus. I’m a follower, right? Like I am, I am all in my life looks different. I’ve been transformed. How do I follow him? And then how do you serve people in that arena too? Because that’s going to look different than somebody who’s come in as a seeker looking for Jesus and somebody who’s on fire for Jesus. So how do we move them around the circle?
Ashley Lentz — So it’s seeker, believer, follower, and then kind of the last part of our circle is servant leader. How do we move them then into serving and letting the transformed nature of the gospel pour out of them into the world around us?
Ashley Lentz — And I would say our secret sauce here at Hope is we love volunteers. Like as we move people around the Hope circle, I and my colleagues, we want to equip people to lead.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Ashley Lentz — So being a servant leader inside these walls, but also outside these walls is really like, that’s what’s attractional to people is is letting them know like you’re on fire for Jesus. Go tell everyone about it and serve in the arena you find yourself in, whether in the church or outside the church.
Rich Birch — That’s good. So how do you, how do you help people self-identify that? What’s that practically look like for folks that are at the church? How do you help them? And um folks, we’ll, we’ll put the Hope circle in the show notes. You can look down there. You can see it there if you’re, if you want to see that as a tool to kind of visualize that. But how do you help folks self-identify where they might be in that process? Or is it purely, they got to talk to somebody?
Ashley Lentz — No, it’s not. I would love to say, please just talk to me, but you’re right.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes.
Ashley Lentz — With 7,000 people worshiping on a weekend, there’s no way.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I can’t do that.
Ashley Lentz — Even if if everybody on staff talked to some people. We, I’ll talk about this as kind of like on ramps or pathways.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Ashley Lentz — One of the best places for people to start as a seeker, a believer, even a follower is the Alpha course. I’m sure you’re familiar with Alpha course.
Rich Birch — Absolutely. Yep.
Ashley Lentz — We love Alpha here at Hope. And Alpha does such a beautiful job of if you are a seeker, it gives you the foundation that you need to step into what’s next.
Ashley Lentz — If you’re a believer, it’s going to connect you to community, which is a really important part of discipleship. If you are a follower, like you are bought in and you are learning the things, we tell people Alpha is a great place to brush up on the basics, but also get plugged into community. So would say one of our biggest on-ramps is Alpha.

Ashley Lentz — And then from there, this is kind of like my bread and butter in my role, is taking people as they finish Alpha and helping them self-identify what’s next. Coming out of Alpha, am I ready to serve? Is that like, am I on fire? Am I ready to come back and host Alpha or step into a different service opportunity? Do I need more basics? Did Alpha spark in me like, oh, maybe I don’t know as much about the Bible as I want to. Do we direct them back to a Bible class and learning like the foundations of a Bible.
Ashley Lentz — This fall, we’re trying something new called Foundations. it’s a three-week class. The first class is, what’s my Bible? How do I read it? Second class is, how do I pray? And the third class is identity, like what God says about you.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.
Ashley Lentz — And so there’ll be people who come out of Alpha, yeah, who we say, maybe Foundations is next for you. Like, let’s Let’s really get some of these foundational pieces put together. up We also have a ton of just general classes, right? Like if you want to study ah spiritual disciplines, we have a class for that.
Ashley Lentz — If you want to really dive into the narrative of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, what is the story that’s being told? We have a class for that. We also outsource resources. So I’m always always directing people to BibleProject.com and other things that do a really good job of walking people through some of these basic parts of discipleship, Bible knowledge, prayer knowledge. How, how do I get plugged into community? These are the questions we continue to ask.
Ashley Lentz — And people can self-identify. I like, I do like directing people to the website. If you’re excited about community or getting plugged into a small group, check the website. There’s a page for small groups. Like we will help you with that.
Rich Birch — Right.
Ashley Lentz — By far and away, the best way we have found to get people connected is personal invites and personal relationships. I can’t personally do all of that. It is our congregation that does that for one another. And that is super beautiful to equip people who are on fire for Jesus to invite their neighbors and their colleagues, and to help them to share their story and say, here was here’s what my discipleship journey looked like. And I’d invite you to check out Alpha or this class or come join our small group and see what it’s like.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, I love that you’re, you know, stressing that. I think there might be people that are surprised who are listening who would say, you know, here’s a person talking, you know, a large church, really stressing personal relationships. Unpack that a little more a little bit more. How do you practically cultivate those personal touches at scale? How do you encourage that beyond, you know, just, you know, you doing that or a small group of people doing that?
Ashley Lentz — Yes, ah we build teams. And everything that we do, we build volunteer teams. So if you walk into Hope on a weekend, and this is true of any of our campuses, there will be a New to Hope area with volunteers who are clearly marked. They they wear bright orange vests here at our West Des Moines campus. You can’t miss them. The vests say: “New to Hope?” And we clearly tell people, if you are new, we love to connect with you.

Ashley Lentz — They can fill out an online form. They can fill out a paper form. They can have a conversation with a real person. But those people every week are being followed up with personally um by staff members, by volunteers. They are being checked in with because we so deeply believe in personal relationship and personal invitation.
Ashley Lentz — Same thing with people who are just getting involved.They might not be new to Hope, but the fall is a great example of getting connected, right? Like rally weekend is coming up for us this weekend where all of our fall programming kick kicks off. So we have a ministry fair where we will have tables in our atrium and invite people to stop by the tables and really get to know the leaders leading those ministries or the volunteers involved in those ministries and ask your questions.

Rich Birch — That’s great.
Ashley Lentz — Some people, again, some people won’t stop, right? Like they like, I don’t want to have a conversation with anybody, which is why a website’s a great tool. We have clearly marked women’s ministry, men’s ministry, general adult classes, everything’s on there. But if you are excited about what’s next and making a large place feel small, the best way you’re going to do that is by a conversation with someone or an email correspondence.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Ashley Lentz — But yeah, really having pointed conversations about where you’re at in your faith life and what you’re looking for.
Rich Birch — Okay, let’s deep dive on that. You talked about some stuff there that I’d love to double click on and hear a little bit more about.
Ashley Lentz — Yeah.
Rich Birch — So talk us through, if I’m if I’m a guest that comes, um talk us through, I arrive at the New to Hope, I see. So like, give me a sense of like, how many people are there? What happens when I arrive there? What are they going to ask me to do? How do they get me connected? I’m assuming I fill something out. Maybe I get a gift. Then what happens? You know, kind of talk us through what the the experience of someone who chooses to self-identify, you know, through the New to Hope experience, what’s that look like?
Ashley Lentz — Yes. Yes, I love this. Our New to Hope area is in the middle of our atrium. So we have our building is kind of, the worship center is obviously like big and there’s it’s kind of the main part of our building. But the atrium is very clearly when you come into the building, you are in the atrium. And so it’s a big old signs, bright orange. When you see that, you will see very friendly volunteer faces – usually like three or four and probably a couple of staff people lingering in that general area every single weekend, every single service.

Ashley Lentz — And it’s really funny, Rich, just this weekend, I was walking around the building and I saw a family. And it was a young adult woman and her parents. And they walk into our building. And you can tell when people are new because they just kind of stop and look around.
Rich Birch — A hundred percent. A hundred percent.
Ashley Lentz — Like they don’t know where to go, right?
Rich Birch — Yes.
Ashley Lentz — So I walked up to them and I said, hey, can I help you find anything? And they’re like, we’re brand new. We have no idea what we’re doing. And I so I introduced myself. And I said, here here’s where we’ll start. We’ll start at New to Hope. And so I had her fill out a connection card. We have paper connection cards, like a postcard. And it is name, address, email address, phone number. People can follow it as much or as little as they want. But I tell them, if you want us to get in touch with you, I need you to write your email and I need you to write it legibly.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Ashley Lentz — And then they can opt in for our weekly newsletter, right? Like that’s and then there’s a blank space that says, what are you interested in? What do you want more information about? Some people fill that out, some people don’t. But that’s, they can fill it out virtually. We have little tablets at the New to Hope or they can fill it out on paper. And then what we do, we give them a free Hope t-shirt and we tell people in announcements, like if you’re new, stop by the New to Hope area. We’d love to gift to you with a free Hope t-shirt as a way of saying thanks for being our guest today.
Ashley Lentz — So they get a free Hope t-shirt. And then I always ask them, can I help you find anything? Would you like a tour of the building? Like, I personally walked around this family this weekend. She was a young adult woman who had just moved here. And she said, like, where would I do young adult things? You have young adult ministry. And I said, yes. And I said, it’s not in the worship center. It’s in this, it’s in our chapel. Let me walk you around and orient you.

Rich Birch — So good.
Ashley Lentz — So when you get here on a Thursday night for, for that, then you know where you’re going.
Ashley Lentz — That’s what our volunteers will do for people too. We, I want people to feel seen, right? As It’s a large church. You don’t want people to walk in without being seen or walk out without being seen.
Rich Birch — So good.
Ashley Lentz — So yes, we I say hi to everybody that crosses my path. And some people purposely put their head down and don’t want to be said hi to. And it’s like, you’re in church…
Rich Birch — That’s okay. Yeah.
Ashley Lentz — …you don’t have to say hi back.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Lentz — But if you cross my path on a Sunday morning, I’m going to say hi to you because I’m truly glad that people are here and I want them to know that.
Rich Birch — Yes. Okay, that’s that’s fantastic. When So let’s say I come, I fill out, let’s say i’m I seem eager, maybe like that family, I fill out all the information. I give you my my mailing address, my email, my phone number, the whole thing. What then happens from there? What’s my experience? Do I get certain amount of follow-up? So what all happens at that point?
Ashley Lentz — Yes, our we have a team that that does follow-ups.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Ashley Lentz — So those all go, we have, I would call it a track. They’re going to get an email right away. If they fill out a card on Sunday, they’re going to get an email on Monday that says, thanks for stopping by New to Hope.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Ashley Lentz — And generally that’s a generic email. It will have their name in it, right? So it seems like it’s personal. And it comes from ah Pat Quaid, one of our pastors here. um He’s been on staff for like 20 plus years. He’s incredible.
Ashley Lentz — And so Pat will say, you know, we’re glad. Thanks for stopping by New to Hope. And generally here’s some information. If people put on the card that they want specific information, he will put that in the email as well.
Rich Birch — Okay, yep.
Ashley Lentz — Then I believe there are a couple other follow-up steps past that. We can send text messages. And so if people have put in their put their phone number down, they’ll get a text message later in the week that simply invites them back to worship.
Ashley Lentz — It just says, hey, hey, Rich, this is Ashley from Hope. I just want to say I’d love to see at worship again this weekend. Reminder service times are…, or something like that. So they get a couple follow ups past that to know like we actually care.
Ashley Lentz — While it’s automated, it also comes from real people.
Rich Birch — Right.

Ashley Lentz — So the system is in place because we’re such a large church.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Ashley Lentz — But if people text back, like I get those text messages back through an app, right?
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Ashley Lentz — Like I’m, I have good healthy boundaries. ah Nobody has, you know, like I’m not texting 7,000 people at a time.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Ashley Lentz — But we can personally respond to these people and answer questions that they might have.
Rich Birch — Yeah Yeah. I love that. So friends, I want to underline a bunch of things that Ashley said there, because this is best in class practice that we’ve seen in in other contexts. You know, the idea that the, you know, New to Hope is like in the middle of the atrium, it’s super obvious. It’s that orange. You’ve got lots of, you know, volunteers and staff there. The t-shirt I love, the free gift. People, you know, ah too many churches will say like, if you want to get connected, drop by the connection kiosk. That’s like way too, people are not interested in getting connected yet.
Rich Birch — They’re like just ah new. And so, but they will stop by and get a free T-shirt. It’s fantastic. I love that there’s multiple follow-ups. You wouldn’t imagine how many churches drop the ball there. they go They do everything else, but then they only follow up once or they, because they don’t want to bother people. I’m like, we’re talking about trying to get people connected to the kingdom of Christ. We’ve got to follow up with them.

Ashley Lentz — Yes.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s, that’s so good. There’s so much, so much good there.
Rich Birch — Okay, pivoting in a different direction. So, there’s a dichotomy, false dichotomy of in the church world around, we want to get people connected to teams or to groups. You know, we, we, and ultimately want to see them connect to both. And I think that’s the best practice. We want to get them there eventually, but it’s hard to point them towards both. What’s your thoughts on that? How do we, if if you were trying to kind of move people in an ideal direction, teams or groups, what’s that look like? What’s your experience been like when you’re trying to get people connected?
Ashley Lentz — Yep. I would tell you, we ask often around here, what does it look like for someone to be engaged? What is an engaged church member? Like, how do you define that?
Rich Birch — Yep.
Ashley Lentz — And I’m not going to quote the research because I can’t remember if it was Barna or Gallup, but it was one of the two. A few years ago released that a highly engaged church person, the research is that they attend church once a month. That’s a highly engaged church person…

Rich Birch — It’s true. It’s true.

Ashley Lentz — …in our society. And so to to engage them, like the task of discipleship is so interesting because to say like, if I’m highly engaged, that means I’m coming to church once a month. To ask them to do anything beyond that means you’re like a super duper, highly, highly, highly engaged person, right?
Rich Birch — Right. True.
Ashley Lentz — So one of, I call this maybe ah another secret sauce, secret weapon, is I love to invite people into service opportunities as their kind of pathway to getting more connected. What people undermine in service opportunities, and by service opportunity, volunteer opportunity, I mean like our hospitality team or our communion serving team or the kitchen team.
Ashley Lentz — We have a cafe where 100% of the proceeds go to missions. Somebody’s got to make that coffee, right? Like I invite them into these teams because I know that they will already be here for some of some of that time, right? Like if you’re coming to worship and I can get you on a team that greets before worship, I’m capitalizing on you’re already coming to worship.
Ashley Lentz — But number two, you are going to be in community.
Rich Birch — So true.
Ashley Lentz — You will start to have great conversations with these people in community. You’ll start to get to know faces, right? Again, large place will start to seem smaller. Discipleship will happen in the context of volunteer teams without me ever teaching a class. It will just happen naturally.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Ashley Lentz — And so I think we forget that that’s a really great place to get people plugged in.

Rich Birch — It’s so true.
Ashley Lentz — And then is it is an on-ramp to anybody who shows up in the in this space and says, I just want to meet people. I want to get connected.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.
Ashley Lentz — They might be in a season where they want a class, but I’m a young mom, right? Like I got two little kids. It’s hard for me to get here on a weeknight for six or eight weeks to do a class. A really good invitation might be, well, if you want to get connected, get to know people, you love greeting. Like you love talking to people. Why don’t you be on our greeting team? You’re already coming to service. Your whole family can do it.
Ashley Lentz — And discipleship will happen in that context in such a beautiful way…

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.

Ashley Lentz — …that that I love introducing people to volunteer opportunities.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I would say that for sure we’ve seen that as a trend in lots of prevailing churches like yours. You know, I would say particularly post-COVID, I think there has been a stronger emphasis or emphasis, depending on how you say it, to, you know, move people towards serving opportunities as like, a you didn’t say it this way. I’m saying it, but like as a primary path. Or like a let’s let’s take a first step there ah because of all the stuff you talked about. You know, we can get people on a schedule. We can yeah you know, there’s there’s something about the kind of envisioning we do in teams where we’re like pouring in like, hey, this is what Hope’s about. This is what Hope’s about that doesn’t necessarily happen in in in groups. So yeah, that’s that’s great.
Rich Birch — Curveball question. We didn’t talk about ahead of time. Hopefully you can take a curveball, Ashley. I’m sure you can. You’re an incredibly smart person. What are the metrics that you think about in this area? Like, are there numbers that you reflect on that you like come back to you time and again that somebody asks you about regularly? What what would be some of those metrics that you think about?
Ashley Lentz — What a good curveball question. Yes. Here’s what is fascinating to me, as somebody who does discipleship and gets people connected. I know, and this is specific to our context because these are numbers that I have crunched.
Rich Birch — Yep, yep.
Ashley Lentz — We can have really good intentions with groups and classes, but I will tell you that from sign up to show up, right? So if you’re promoting a class, amount of people who sign up versus the amount of people who show up just automatically will drop 20%. Because people have really good intentions.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s true.
Ashley Lentz — But when it comes to coming to class, you’re going to lose about 20%.
Rich Birch — Yeah. It sounded so good at church on Sunday to sign up for that class, but I did not actually come in. Yeah.
Ashley Lentz — Yes, so that being said, the people who show up to your class, you’re already looking at 80% of people who are gonna come. But we’ll we’ll call that 100% of people who are showing up.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Ashley Lentz — From week one to week three or four, you will drop 40% by week four.
Rich Birch — Oh, wow.
Ashley Lentz — I see this consistency, consistently across discipleship at Hope and and the groups that we do.
Ashley Lentz — And so we have also tried to build Alpha. I would tell you is probably the only exception. Alpha, we do Alpha in nine weeks here at Hope. But everything else we have tried to build in three or four week chunks because we just know that by week four, you’re gonna lose half your class or so about about anyway, right?
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s a good insight.
Ashley Lentz — So we have great intentions with six or eight week classes. And I love to teach the Bible in six or eight weeks. I also know that for people’s schedules, they see a six or eight week class and that’s daunting. So to do things in three or four week chunks is really, really helpful. And those are some of the metrics that I keep in the back of my mind.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. And you could see that, right? It’s like better to have two three-week classes than one six-week class. You know, you kind of re-up like this is part one, part two, how do we move people along? You know, that’s, you know, that’s fantastic.
Rich Birch — Well, let’s say you’re at a conference and someone is, you know, pulls you aside and they’re like, Ashley, oh, you’re the connections person from Hope – you guys do such a great job. What’s the one thing that you think I should do to make it easier? I’m sure you give out like common advice to somebody, to churches, church leaders around like, Hey, here’s the thing you could do to make it easier for people to get plugged in.
Ashley Lentz — I would tell them clarity is kindness.
Rich Birch — That’s good.

Ashley Lentz — Be clear about what you’re asking people to do or or where you want them to get plugged in.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Ashley Lentz — Yep. If that’s a conversation, be clear that like step one is a conversation. If it’s Alpha, be clear that Alpha is like the thing you want people to do. Clarity is kindness. Make sure your website is clear. We’re not perfect at any of these things by any means, but…
Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah.
Ashley Lentz — …the more clear we can be about where we want people to go, what we want them to do, what we know works. That’s a really loving thing to do for people is just be clear.
Rich Birch — It’s so true. And, and I know that’s like an, that’s like a journey, not a destination. Like we’re clarity is something we keep working on. We have to keep refining, keep making it easier. I think even in this, that’s part of why I was double clicking on theNew to Hope kind of process. Cause I’ve, in other contexts I’ve talked about that, that, that piece of that. I think every six months you got to look at it again. Okay. What can we do to make this easier?
Ashley Lentz — Yes.
Rich Birch — How do we make it easier for people to connect? Can you think of some areas where you’ve had to gain more clarity? Where like we thought it was clear but then, no, it wasn’t clear – we had to change it and and make it a little more clear.
Ashley Lentz — For sure, I will tell you, we kind of touched on this at the very beginning. We offer so many things as far as adult discipleship goes here at Hope, specifically even just our West Des Moines campus, ah that it’s kind of unclear where to even start.
Ashley Lentz — So one of the things that we have done in the last year is really kind of cleaned up what our fall and winter adult discipleship schedule looks like. So that when people say, okay, I’ve already done Alpha and maybe I already took that class, that we kind of have a very clear trajectory for them depending on where they find themselves in their season of faith, season of life.
Ashley Lentz — So we, Foundations is a good example. That will happen each semester. It’s kind of the foundational course. Here’s where you start. Then it’s Alpha. Then we then there are Bible classes and prayer classes, if that’s what you’re looking for next. Small groups. We always have a small group kind of class to help launch small groups.
Ashley Lentz — But we cleaned up a lot of what I would call white noise around that. So people say, like, what do I do? As a team, we clearly know: this, that, and the next thing, if you’re looking for a prescriptive track. Otherwise, iI got a million women’s groups meeting. There’s a million men’s groups meeting. I can point you in that direction too.

Rich Birch — Right.

Ashley Lentz — But we’ve cleaned up a lot of that white noise to say, generally, this is what we’re offering. It’s going to continue to happen in kind of a cycle, a semester cycle. And so it just makes sense.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I know so many, so many models, you know, churches, every seems like every five years, it somebody comes out with some new approach to cleanliness and clarity.
Rich Birch — And people are like, Oh, this is like the, you know, it’s Highlands’, you know, step one, step two, or, you know, 101, 201, 301. Or it’s like, you know, Saddleback’s run the bases. Or, you know, but the, the foundation of all of that is we’ve got to be super clear. We’ve got to make it as clean as possible. I feel like we cleaned up our schedule is like Des Moines nice for like, we cut a bunch of stuff or like, what did we do? Like that cleaned up. What does that mean? Like you, you are still doing everything, but we’re focusing people’s attention on just a few things? Is that what that means?
Ashley Lentz — Yes, we did get rid of some things and it’s not because they weren’t good.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Right.
Ashley Lentz — We actually moved some of them online. We said people can take this online at their own pace. It will always exist. It’s good stuff.

Rich Birch — Yeah.
Ashley Lentz — But let’s be really clear about what we want people to jump into in the fall…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Ashley Lentz — …and in the winter and in the spring. And so we just kind of moved some of those things.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Ashley Lentz — And then, yes, communicated it more clearly. A lot of our stuff happens on Tuesday nights. And so we have told our congregation, come on Tuesday nights. Men’s thing, women’s thing, general classes, dinner, stuff for your kids, right? Like we’ve also tried to make it super accessible. So it’s like, if you don’t know where to start, just show up on a Tuesday night and we’ll help you kind of a thing.
Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s so good. Well, this has been an incredible conversation, Ashley. I feel like I’ve got a page of notes here that is super helpful for me. There’s lots of other stuff I’d love to talk about, but I know you got other things to get to. So we’re going let you go. Just as we wrap up, any final word you’d have to say for us or anything you’d like to say just as we close today’s episode?
Ashley Lentz — I would just encourage listeners, like what you’re doing is great and continue ask to ask yourself and the people that you’re around, like what are they looking forward to? So many times we try to do things, like I live in church world, right? Like this is my frame of reference. It’s really when I start listening to the needs of other people that we really start gaining some traction, right?
Ashley Lentz — So I would just encourage them, like what you’re doing is great. Keep going…

Rich Birch — So good.

Ashley Lentz — …and ask your congregation what what they need and and what they want. And then just clarify that for them.
Rich Birch — So good. Well, thanks so much. If people want to track with you or track with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Ashley Lentz — Yes, LutheranChurchOfHope.org is our like landing page website.
Rich Birch — Perfect.
Ashley Lentz — From there, you can find our West Des Moines campus. You can find all of our other campuses. You can find out what you need to know at LutheranChurchOfHope.org. And I’ll be on our staff page and happy to connect with anybody further. My email, I think will be in the notes, but Ashley.Lentz L-E-N-T-Z at HopeWDM.org.
Rich Birch — Perfect. Thanks so much, Ashley. Appreciate you being here today.
Ashley Lentz — Thanks, Rich!

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Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by returning guest and friend of the show, Dave Miller. With a background in worship and creative arts ministry across Las Vegas, Kentucky, and Michigan, Dave now leads Leadership Pathway, an organization focused on helping the next generation of church leaders take their healthiest first steps […]

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Building Bridges, Not Barriers: A Gospel-Centered Approach to Immigrant Ministry with Rick & Patti Love Feb 27, 2025

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rick and Patti Love, founders of the organizations Love New Canadians and Love New Internationals. These ministries equip churches to serve new immigrants, refugees, and international students in their neighborhoods. Since 2014 Rick and Patti Love have worked with more than 700 churches and ministries in […]

Healthy Things Grow: Building a Unified and Thriving Staff Team with Chad Bickley Feb 20, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Chad Bickley, the executive pastor at Skyline Church in California. Is your church experiencing growth, but you’re struggling with how to maintain a healthy team culture? Wondering how to create a culture that drives growth while ensuring your staff remains aligned and healthy? In this episode […]

Big Dreams, Healthy Rhythms: Avoiding Burnout in Growing Churches with Danny Anderson Feb 13, 2025

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Danny Anderson, the Lead Pastor at Emmanuel Church in Indianapolis, Indiana. Is your church growing quickly, but you’re feeling the pressure? Wondering how to balance church growth with spiritual health for yourself and your staff team? Danny shares his journey of leading a fast-growing […]

Great Leaders Over Great Content: Secret Sauce to Thriving Groups with Adam Ader Feb 06, 2025

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Adam Ader, the Groups Director at Parkview Christian Church in Illinois. Is your church looking to improve how you connect people into life-changing groups? Wondering how to lead a growing group ministry that truly impacts people’s lives? Tune in as Adam shares valuable insights on […]

Breaking Free: Addressing Sexual Brokenness in the Church with Nick Stumbo Jan 30, 2025

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Stumbo, the Executive Director of Pure Desire Ministries. According to a Barna study, 75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women view pornography at least occasionally, with 67% of pastors having a personal history of porn use. How can churches effectively address pervasive issues […]

The Art of Preaching: Balancing Depth and Accessibility in a Secular World with Mark Clark Jan 23, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re learning from Mark Clark, the founder of Village Church, a multi-site church with locations in multiple cities across Canada and online around the world. He is […]

Repurpose, Reach, Renew: Unleashing AI for Your Church’s Mission with Kenny Jahng Jan 22, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re learning from Kenny Jahng, founder of Big Click Syndicate and AI for Church Leaders, and Editor in Chief of Church Tech Today. We’re talking about how […]

700 Million and Counting: Your Church’s Role in the Fight Against Extreme Poverty with Mike Mantel & Jonathan Wiles Jan 16, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re hearing from Mike Mantel, the President and CEO, and Jonathan Wiles, the Chief Operating Officer, of Living Water International (LWI), a faith-based global humanitarian organization. Together […]

Preventing Marital Breakdown: Creating Proactive Support Systems in Your Church with Nicky & Sila Lee Jan 15, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This January we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by Nicky and Sila Lee of The Marriage Course // Alpha International, and are talking about how marriages will still be struggling. Nearly half of […]

Mentoring Gen Z Leaders: Insights from Leadership Pathway’s Residency Program with Dave Miller Jan 09, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This January we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by Dave Miller, co-founder of Leadership Pathway, and are talking about how the next generation will matter more. Are you curious about how your church […]

Healthy Digital Habits: How Churches Can Support Families in a Tech-Driven Culture with Natalie Frisk Jan 08, 2025

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re continuing with our special series called unPredictions 2025 – these are timeless topics that will keep shaping church leadership in 2025 and beyond. Today we’re talking with Natalie Frisk, the director of curriculum at Raise Up Faith, about how parents will be worrying about their kids. […]

Faster Connections, Lasting Community: Effective Church Assimilation with Greg Curtis Jan 02, 2025

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. To kick off the new year, we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless topics that are consistent and crucial for church growth in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by Greg Curtis, the Director of First Steps and Content Development at Eastside Christian Church and founder of Climbing the […]

Rebuilding and Relaunching: Lessons in Church Renewal with James Griffin Dec 19, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with James Griffin, the lead pastor at Crosspoint City Church in Georgia. Is your church working through a difficult season and struggling to see fruit? Wondering how a church can overcome significant challenges and emerge stronger than ever? In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast James shares […]

Power of a Map, Not a Menu: Transforming Ministry Strategy with Mariners Church’s Jared Kirkwood Dec 12, 2024

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jared Kirkwood, the Executive Pastor of Ministries and Lead Pastor at the Irvine location of Mariners Church in California. A church’s mission isn’t much without a strategy. How are you aligning, training, and equipping people at your church to take their next steps […]

Building Leaders for the Next Generation: Insights on Developing Residency Programs with Pat Gillen Dec 05, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Pat Gillen, the Executive Pastor of Families and a teaching pastor from First Baptist Simpsonville / Upstate Church in South Carolina. How are you cultivating leaders at your church? Are you trying to figure out your next step for developing Gen Z? Tune in as Pat […]

Staying Aligned as a Staff Team in a Growing Church: Insights from Andy Hill Nov 28, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Andy Hill, the Executive Pastor at Mobberly Baptist Church in Texas. How do you keep your church’s staff aligned? The more your church grows, the more challenging it is to keep everyone connected and moving in the same direction. In this episode of the unSeminary […]

Embracing Digital for Church Growth: Insights from Saddleback’s Online Pastor Jay Kranda Nov 21, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda this week, the online campus pastor at Saddleback Church in California. What are you doing with online church? How does it fit in with your digital strategy? How can digital tools strengthen in-person community? Tune in as Jay discusses a team-based approach to digital […]

Stability in Transition: Insights on Church Succession from Drake Farmer Nov 14, 2024

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m looking forward to talking with Drake Farmer, the Executive Pastor of Ministries from Beulah Alliance Church in Alberta, Canada. Are you curious about how churches manage leadership transitions smoothly? Learn about the strategic and intentional planning behind the leadership transition as Daniel Im (interviewed here) […]

Leadership People Will Trust: Insights from Jenni Field’s Nobody Believes You Nov 13, 2024

In this deep dive episode of the unSeminary podcast, we explore Jenni Field’s insightful book Nobody Believes You: Become a Leader People Will Follow. This conversation delves into practical strategies and timeless leadership principles tailored especially for those guiding teams in a church context. Field’s book offers a fresh perspective on becoming a credible leader […]

Grow More, Send More: Building a Sending Church with Andrew Hopper Nov 07, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Andrew Hopper, the founding and lead pastor of Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina. Andrew has also started Breaking Barriers, which provides pastors and churches with biblical strategies to help them grow in order to go. Are you curious about how to effectively grow […]

Kids Ministry in a Changing World: Building a Thriving Children’s Ministry with Justyn Smith Oct 31, 2024

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast! This week we have with us Justyn Smith, Executive Kids Pastor at Cornerstone Church in Arizona and a story catalyst at Plain Joe. What does an effective children’s ministry look like? What does kids’ ministry at your church look like when you put yourself in the shoes of a child, […]

How to Make Your Church Irresistible: Proven Strategies for Creating an Invite Culture Oct 30, 2024

In this Deep Dive episode of the unSeminary Podcast, the hosts explore how to make your church irresistible by discussing Rich Birch’s book, Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture: Strategies for Church Growth That Work Today. The conversation unpacks Birch’s insights on how churches can cultivate an environment where members naturally want to invite others into […]

From Despair to Connection: Helping Youth Overcome Mental Health Challenges with Will Hutcherson Oct 24, 2024

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Will Hutcherson, a Next Gen and Student Pastor who has become increasingly passionate about finding practical ways to bring hope to kids and teens who are facing anxiety, depression, and despair. This led to him starting Curate Hope, a non-profit that focuses on […]

Rethinking Your Kids’ Ministry Spaces: Aaron Stanski with Practical Tips for Church Leaders Oct 17, 2024

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with return guest Aaron Stanski, the founder and CEO of Risepointe. They provide creative design solutions so that your church’s mission isn’t held back by its building. Is your kids’ ministry space feeling tired? Churches often take more design risks with kids’ environments through use of color […]

Portable Church Success: Systems that Last and Leaders that Thrive with Jeff Beachum Oct 10, 2024

Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Jeff Beachum with us. He’s part of Portable Church Industries (PCI), which has helped thousands of churches launch and operate successfully in mobile settings. Jeff serves as the Multiplication Specialist and Director of Marketing. Is your church running out of capacity, but looking for […]

Prepare for the Unexpected: Crisis Communication Strategies for Your Church with Kim Tarlton Oct 03, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to talk with Kim Tarlton, the General Manager of Church Communications Group which helps church communicators navigate the complexities of the modern communication landscape. Many churches operate under the misconception that crises won’t happen to them. However, crises can arise from various sources, including issues in the […]

Marking a Milestone: Carey Nieuwhof’s Change Leadership Insights 10 Years Later Sep 26, 2024

Thanks for joining us for today’s unSeminary podcast. Carey Nieuwhof has been a guiding light in the church leadership space for decades and this week we’re celebrating the ten-year anniversary of his podcast. To mark this special occasion, we’re revisiting an interview we did with him 10 years ago. Do you have things at your […]

Can a Church Stay Mid-Sized and Still Multiply? A Conversation About Growth and Vision Sep 19, 2024

Welcome to an Office Hours episode of the unSeminary podcast. In our Office Hours episodes I’m happy to answer your questions that you can submit via an audio file through our website. Mark Strickland is the lead pastor at Milton Bible Church in Milton, Ontario, Canada. His mid-sized church has about 300 attending on Sunday […]

Building an Inviting Church: Greg Griffith on 60% Growth in Two Years Sep 12, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Greg Griffith, Lead Pastor at King of Kings in Omaha, Nebraska. If your church does what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. But when you take a risk and step out of your comfort zone, who knows how God can use […]

Building Trust and Unity in a Fast-Growing Church: Drew Karschner’s Insights on Empathy and Authenticity Sep 05, 2024

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. This week Drew Karschner is joining us. He’s the Lead Pastor at Northridge Church in Rochester, New York – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. While church growth is a blessing, it often comes with hardships that must be navigated carefully. Whether your church is […]

Creating Inclusive Spaces: Making Churches Accessible for All with Kerri-Ann Hayes Aug 29, 2024

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kerri-Ann Hayes today. In addition to being a senior consultant at Ministry Architects, Kerri-Ann has worked in children’s and family ministry for over 20 years and has a heart for making churches more inclusive for families with special needs. At our churches we want […]

Redefining Ministry for Men: Brian Tome on Man Camp and Spiritual Awakening Aug 22, 2024

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re sitting down with Brian Tome, the founder and senior pastor at Crossroads Church in Cincinnati – one of the fastest growing and most innovative churches in the country. Whether we realize it or not, the systems in our churches are often set up to cater to […]

The Volunteer Playbook: Secrets to Building a Thriving Ministry Team with Nick Blevins Aug 15, 2024

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. Today, we have repeat guest, Nick Blevins, the Children and Student Team Leader at Community Christian Church in Maryland. He is also the cofounder of Ministry Boost which helps leaders fast forward their growth in ministry through training, coaching, and consulting. Every church out there could use […]

Out of the Seats and Into The Streets: Leading Effective Community and Global Outreach with Kristin Flynn Aug 08, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Kristin Flynn, the Outreach Director at Liquid Church in New Jersey. She leads the charge in both local and global outreach. Putting our faith into action through loving service is an important part of following Jesus. So how do we help the people at our […]

From Blown Up Lives to New Beginnings: How Summit Christian Church Transforms Communities with Bryan Smith Aug 01, 2024

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Bryan Smith, the lead pastor of Summit Christian Church in Sparks, Nevada. We are increasingly living in a culture where many are completely unchurched, having no preconceived notion of what church looks like. Yet this can provide just the opportunity where people are […]

Community First: How Century Church is Redefining Outreach and Church Spaces with Patrick Quinn Jul 25, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Patrick Quinn, the lead pastor at Century Church in Alabama. Century has a vision to plant one hundred churches across America in order to see more people brought into a life-saving communion with Jesus Christ. Can you imagine a church so ingrained in a local community […]

Strategic Growth and Alignment: Lessons on Mergers, Multisite, and Ministry with Brian Owens Jul 18, 2024

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to talk with Brian Owens, Executive Pastor of Operations at First Baptist Simpsonville / Upstate Church in South Carolina. In American culture it’s very normal to want your own voice and identity. Yet this can be challenging when you’re trying to align a church with […]

Mastering Communicating Change in Your Ministry with Dawn Nicole Baldwin Jul 11, 2024

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dawn Nicole Baldwin from Mavericks, an organization which helps churches be more effective in their communications. Is there a major change your church is thinking about, but you’re not sure how to communicate it? How do you ensure that your messages are aligned […]

The Disciple Dilemma: Insights from Fighter Pilot CEO Dennis Allen Jul 04, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dennis Allen today, a former fighter pilot who became a six-time Turnaround CEO and now helps churches rethink discipleship. The vast majority of younger people who were raised in the church are leaving at alarming rates. 80% of the people sitting in our churches are spiritually […]

Elevating Your Church’s Funding to New Heights with Phil Ling Jun 27, 2024

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with generosity expert Phil Ling today. He offers strategic and energetic leadership to The Giving Church consulting team, helping churches fuel their ministries. The largest transfer of wealth in the world is going on right now. With four generations alive at the same time, churches […]

Beyond Sundays: Liquid Church’s 24/7 Ministry Model with Lauren Bercarich Jun 20, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re joined today by Lauren Bercarich, the Digital Director at Liquid Church, with seven campuses in New Jersey as well as a robust online campus. Digital ministry is no longer a supplementary aspect of church operations; it has become a cornerstone for reaching and engaging people. Tune in as […]

Setting Roots, Spurring Growth: Thriving New Campus Location Growth with Aaron Stanski & Aaron Mora Jun 13, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with two Aarons—Aaron Stanski, CEO and Founder of Risepointe, and Aaron Mora, the Alma Campus Pastor of Community Church in north central Michigan. If your church is growing, chances are you’ve wrestled with questions about your location or building meeting your ministry needs. Tune in to […]

The Discipleship Opportunity: Blueprint for a Post-Everything Church with Daniel Im Jun 06, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We have Daniel Im joining us, the Lead Pastor of Beulah Alliance Church in Alberta, Canada. The world is a very different place from what it was just a few years ago. While it’s tempting for churches to try to find a way back to how things used to […]

The Staff Health Puzzle: How Central Christian Operationalizes Alignment with Joe Platania May 30, 2024

Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Joe Platania today, the Executive Pastor of Human Resources, Staff Development, and the Central Leadership Institute at Central Christian Church in Arizona. Maintaining a healthy staff culture at a growing church is no small feat, particularly when you have multiple campuses. How do you lay […]

From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Most Churches’ First Steps May 29, 2024

This is part four of an ongoing series where we explore the “Goldilocks growth rate”—a concept aimed at helping churches grow at a pace that’s impactful yet sustainable. Understanding the Goldilocks Growth Rate The Goldilocks growth rate is all about balancing rapid growth with the ability to effectively integrate new members into your church community. […]

Beyond Accessibility: Gail Ewell’s Vision for Church Inclusivity May 23, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Gail Ewell a leader at Bay Area Christian Church and Hope Technology School. Gail’s story is one of personal struggle and triumph. As a mother of children with special needs, she faced significant challenges in attending church. Her experiences shed light on the isolation and […]

Key Takeaways from XPS 2024: Navigating Organizational Doubt, Leadership Stages & Target Audiences May 22, 2024

This week, we delve into the highlights of the XP Summit 2024, or XPS, as it’s affectionately known within the executive pastor community. Held at the vibrant Flatirons Church in Denver, this year’s event was a powerhouse of insights, connections, and practical takeaways for church leaders. Here are some key points from my solo podcast […]

Vision to Reality: How Executive Pastors Shape the Church’s Future with Phil Taylor May 16, 2024

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re welcoming back Phil Taylor, a seasoned leader with over 20 years of experience in various pastoral roles and a passion for helping pastors turn vision into reality, which he does through his ministry, Backstage Pastors. Tune in as Phil shares insights on the importance of the […]

From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Engagement Pathway Best Practices May 15, 2024

We’re aiming for what might be called the Goldilocks growth rate—quick enough to make a substantial impact but sustainable so it doesn’t overwhelm your resources or team. To achieve this, we’ve identified that retaining 26% of new guests is pivotal. To effectively double a church’s attendance from 1,000 to 2,000 members over 1,000 days, or […]

Exploiting Limits for Church Growth: Insights from A Better Theory’s Nathan R. Elson May 09, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Nathan R. Elson. He is the founder and chief theorist with the organization, A Better Theory. Every ministry, every church, and every leader has problems they have to deal with. Regardless of the size of your problems, it is possible to develop a pattern of […]

The Four Key Factors of Magnetic Community Service That Drive Invite Culture May 08, 2024

In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we delve into the transformative impact of magnetic community service on building a vibrant church invite culture. Drawing inspiration from outreach initiatives at prominent churches like Elevation’s Love Week and Church of the Highlands’ Serve Day, we explore how strategic mass outreach can drive your congregation’s growth and […]

Calling the Next Gen to Leadership: Insights on Empowering Emerging Changemakers with Brad Dreibelbis May 02, 2024

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Brad Dreibelbis, Next Gen and Operations Pastor at The Journey, a church in Delaware. How do you identify and find high caliber leaders, particularly from the next generation? Too many churches wait for young leaders to be trained in other places instead of raising […]

From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Understanding New Guest Metrics May 01, 2024

Today, we’re continuing our series on how your church can expand from 1,000 to 2,000 members in just 1,000 days. We’re focusing on the practical steps and metrics essential for managing such significant growth without overburdening your team or losing touch with the community’s needs. This discussion builds on our ongoing series, where we explore […]

40 Day All-In Campaigns for Your Church: Unleashing Discipleship & Growth with Zach Zehnder Apr 25, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Zach Zehnder, the co-founder of Red Letter Living. Zach is a pioneer in creating 40-day challenges that have transformed discipleship and church growth in over 1000 churches. He’s also the teaching pastor at King of Kings in Omaha, Nebraska. You know that disciple-making is important, but […]

5 Counterintuitive Truths About Hiring for Church Leadership Apr 24, 2024

You’ve often heard me stress the importance of culture, revenue, and vision in our churches, and our approach to hiring is at the heart of shaping our culture. Let’s explore five counterintuitive truths about hiring that I’ve uncovered through my experiences and coaching other church teams. 1. Judge by the Past, Not by Potential In […]

Volunteering as Mission: Cultivating a Culture of Engagement with Mary Ann Sibley Apr 18, 2024

Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mary Ann Sibley, church leader cheerleader and volunteer ministry ninja who works to make you look like the hero as you improve your volunteer culture. Does it ever feel like there’s a lack of ownership when people serve at your church? How do you […]

From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Key Metrics for Explosive Church Growth Apr 17, 2024

Today, we’re diving into the mechanics of rapid church growth, specifically how a church can potentially double in size—from 1,000 to 2,000 members—in just 1,000 days. If you’ve been pondering how to expand your congregation effectively and sustainably, this is the episode for you. The Balance of Growth Rapid church growth is exhilarating but maintaining […]

Embracing the Future with Humility: Community Christian’s Leadership Succession with Ted Coniaris Apr 11, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Ted Coniaris, the Lead Pastor Apprentice at Community Christian Church. One of the fastest growing churches in the country, Community Christian is an entrepreneurial church which has been a ministry “teaching hospital” and vanguard for decades. Whether it’s five years or fifty years, every lead […]

Attention Economy: Understanding Its Impact On Your Church’s Mission Apr 10, 2024

In our rapidly evolving digital landscape, the concept of the attention economy has become increasingly relevant, especially for churches seeking to navigate this new terrain effectively. At its core, the attention economy is about the commodification of human attention, where businesses and organizations vie for our focus amidst an overwhelming sea of information. This shift […]

Redemptive Poverty Work: Transforming Urban Communities Through Faith with Rev. Dr. Alvin Sanders Apr 04, 2024

Thank you for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to have Rev. Dr. Alvin Sanders from World Impact with us. This organization comes alongside church leaders and offers training and support designed for the urban context. The American Church has devalued the urban space, either fearing it or viewing it as something to […]

Easter 2024 Stats Exposed: Insights Your Church Can’t Afford to Ignore Apr 03, 2024

During this episode of the unSeminary, we dived into the Easter 2024 attendance figures, collating responses from a wide array of churches. The total combined attendance hit a staggering 249,377, revealing much about the state of church engagement during this important “Eventful Big Day.” The Importance of Eventful Big Days Easter can be an “Eventful […]

The Jewish Road: Uniting Act 1 and Act 2 of Our Faith Journey with Matt Davis Mar 28, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Matt Davis from The Jewish Road, an organization that works to help Christians make sense of their Jewish roots while helping Jews make sense of Jesus. Most Christians have a basic understanding of Jesus and His teachings, but they aren’t getting the whole story. Jesus has […]

From Vision to Reality: Crafting a Future Where More People Meet Jesus with Paul Alexander Mar 21, 2024

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m joined by Paul Alexander, the Executive Pastor at Sun Valley Community Church in Arizona. As church leaders, sometimes we can have a natural aversion to strategic planning. Yet we see in the scriptures, from beginning to end, that God has a plan. And He wants […]

Leading Through Growth: Executive Pastor Roundtable with Jeremy Peterson, Kayra Montañez, & Jesse DeYoung Mar 20, 2024

This episode of unSeminary brings together a distinguished panel of Executive Pastors—Jeremy Peterson, Kayra Montañez, and Jesse DeYoung—for an insightful roundtable discussion. These seasoned leaders from across the country share their frontline experiences and strategies in navigating the complexities of expanding churches in today’s rapidly changing ecclesiastical landscape. What You’ll Learn: Guest Bios: This episode […]

Wonderful: Charting the Path to Fulfillment in a World Overflowing with Options with Travis Spencer Mar 14, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we have with us Travis Spencer, the lead pastor at The Fields Church in Mattoon, Illinois. We’re talking with Travis about his book Wonderful: How to Live a Fulfilled Life in a Very Full World. Have you ever thought about writing a book? Tune in as Travis discusses […]

Bridgetown’s Pivot from Livestream to Local: Kenny Jahng & Rich Birch Discuss Mar 13, 2024

In an era where digital presence is almost synonymous with accessibility, Bridgetown Church’s recent decision to cancel their livestream services stands out as a bold counter-current move. This episode of the unSeminary podcast, featuring a conversation between host Rich Birch and guest Kenny Jahng, dives deep into the implications and motivations behind this pivot. Here’s […]

Unlocking Generosity and Engagement: Key Takeaways from Church Growth Incubator Retreat Mar 07, 2024

In today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast, we pull back the curtain on an extraordinary gathering that promises to revolutionize the way church leaders envision growth and community engagement. Fresh from the Church Growth Incubator retreat held at Mariner’s Church in Irvine, Southern California, we’re eager to share a treasure trove of wisdom that emerged […]

From Attendance to Engagement: Zach Interviews Rich About Transforming Your Church’s Growth Strategy Feb 29, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m happy to sit down with Zach Zehnder, who runs an organization called Red Letter Living. The mission of Red Letter Living is to challenge all people to become greater followers of Jesus Christ. Thousands of individuals and hundreds of churches have taken one of their 40-day discipleship […]

The Diffusion of Innovation Curve and Leading Change at Your Church Feb 28, 2024

In the dynamic landscape of church leadership, the concept of change is both inevitable and essential. As leaders, our mission extends beyond merely maintaining the status quo; it involves steering our congregations toward a brighter, more engaging future. This journey of transformation, however, is far from straightforward. It demands a nuanced understanding of how change […]

FILO: Empowering Technical Artists in Your Church with Todd Elliott Feb 22, 2024

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Todd Elliott, a writer, speaker and audio engineer serving the local church. He’s also the founder of FILO: First In, Last Out, which is built around supporting technical artists who serve the local church. Do you ever feel like there is a disconnect […]

Church Merger Tactic: Expanding Your Church’s Reach with “The Letter Method” Feb 21, 2024

In today’s solo episode, I’m diving deep into a topic close to my heart and crucial for any growing or multi-site church considering expansion: church mergers. This isn’t just another growth strategy; it’s a pivotal approach that could significantly impact how we reach more people and foster an inviting church culture. The Growing Trend of […]

From Downturn to Turnaround to Steady Growth in a Rural-ish Community with Joseph Berkobien Feb 15, 2024

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Joseph Berkobien, the Lead Pastor of Frankenmuth Bible Church in Frankenmuth, Michigan. Transitions in leadership can be challenging times for churches. How do you recover and grow after a season of decline? Tune in as Joseph shares the turnaround story of […]

Reflections on Christian Ministry at the Halfway Point with Jon Thompson Feb 08, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jon Thompson, the lead pastor at Sanctus Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Being a Christian leader is a marathon, not a sprint. In the middle of the social media and the politics and the pressures and the fear and the questions, we can be tempted to […]

From Eye Rolls to Engagement: Boosting the Effectiveness of Your Church’s Announcements Feb 07, 2024

This episode tackles a critical yet often overlooked aspect of church services: announcements. Far from being mere placeholders, announcements have the potential to drive engagement within your church significantly. We start with a relatable discussion on why church announcements typically induce eye rolls rather than enthusiasm. Recognizing this issue is the first step towards transformation. […]

Protecting Your Church’s DNA: Jon Delger on Building Culture Within a Fast-Growing Church Feb 01, 2024

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We have Jon Delger with us today, the Executive Pastor at Peace Church in Michigan—one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Whether your church is growing a little or a lot, change to the people making up your church will change your culture. How can […]

From First Fifty to New Frontiers: Mike Signorelli on Moving Your People to Deeper Levels of Commitment Jan 25, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Signorelli, Lead Pastor at V1 Church – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country with locations in New York City and other cities across the country. Are you feeling stuck moving people at your church to increasing levels of commitment? Wondering how to manage […]

Revitalizing Invitation: Strategies for Engaging Your Church Community Jan 24, 2024

Today’s episode is unique and particularly close to our hearts as we address a question from one of our listeners, Drew Williams, head pastor at New Life Lutheran Church. This direct engagement with our audience not only reinforces our community’s interconnectedness but also grounds our discussion in real-world church leadership scenarios. Drew’s church, nestled in […]

Pastoral Transitions: Matt Davis on Best Practices in Moving Members Off Your Team Jan 18, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. This week we are talking to Matt Davis, the President and Chief Pastoral Officer at Pastoral Transitions. This ministry exists to help churches love and support their outgoing pastors and their families. They provides transition services to help pastors continue their life ministry for building God’s kingdom. Every pastor […]

Doubling Impact: Navigating the Shift from One to Two Church Services Jan 17, 2024

Why add another service? Growth and multiplication are signs of a healthy church. This isn’t just about getting more people in seats in the building; it’s about creating new opportunities for reaching out, engaging more volunteers, and widening your church’s impact. Remember, every empty seat is a missed opportunity to change a life. Breaking the […]

Fast-Growing Follow Up: Insights from Pantano Christian Church’s Growth with Trevor DeVage Jan 11, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m talking with Trevor DeVage, the lead pastor at Pantano Christian Church in Tuscon, Arizona. Trevor has talked with us before and is back sharing how to recognize opportunities at your church and embrace best practices to create space for growth. You can learn more about Pantano […]

Beyond the Budget: Innovative Ways to Increase Church Revenue Jan 10, 2024

This solo episode offers practical insights, strategies, and inspiring stories aimed at helping church leaders expand their fiscal horizons. The discussion kicks off with a look back at the remarkable achievements of the ‘Best Year End Ever’ cohort, part of The Art of Leadership Academy. Success stories from various churches demonstrate the immense potential and […]

Executive Pastor Profile: Sam Beatty from Grace Church, Cleveland Jan 04, 2024

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have with us Sam Beatty, the executive pastor from Grace Church outside of Cleveland, Ohio. As our churches grow, they naturally become more complex. It’s important to keep them focused and drive towards simplicity so we don’t drift from the mission and vision. Tune […]

2024 Unpredictions: Timeless Church Leadership Challenges & Solutions Jan 03, 2024

As we step into the fresh possibilities of 2024, it’s vital for church leaders to discern between fleeting trends and enduring challenges. In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we delve into the “2024 Unpredictions,” a guide to the timeless challenges and solutions that will shape church leadership this year. Core Themes: While we embrace […]

Digital Rabbi: Unlocking Your Purpose and Passion with Sats Solanki Dec 28, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Sats Solanki, the founder of Reflect Church in London. Sats is not just a pastor but also a coach, speaker, and host of the podcast, Digital Rabbi. Tune in as he shares about the unique journey of Reflect Church and its strategically slow approach to rebuilding […]

Lessons from Christmas: Elevating Your Church’s Impact Dec 26, 2023

As church leaders, we often find the post-Christmas period a time for reflection and planning. The festive season’s hustle has settled, and it’s time to ponder on our successes and the areas where we yearn for growth. In this latest episode of the unSeminary podcast, we delve into crucial insights and strategies to transform your […]

Persevering After Being Fired by Your Church: Kyle Isabelli Reflects on His Journey Dec 21, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with repeat guest, Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor from Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Did you know that as many as one third of people working in church ministry will be forced to resign or be fired from their position? If you’ve ever […]

Beyond Predictions: Increasing Generosity at Your Church Amidst Economic Fog Dec 19, 2023

As we step into 2024, churches face a unique challenge amidst a mixed economic outlook. With predictions ranging from robust growth to stagnation, it’s crucial for church leaders to focus on effective revenue generation strategies. One key area that offers significant potential is the enhancement of offering talks. Understanding the Economic Landscape The economic forecasts […]

Why Your Team Should Do a 90 Day Bible Reading Challenge (& How!) with Mary DeMuth Dec 14, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mary DeMuth today, an international speaker, podcaster, and author of nearly fifty books. You may have read through the Bible in a year, but have you considered reading the entirety of scripture in just 90 days? In today’s conversation, Mary shares how this 90-day challenge started […]

The January Bump: Game-Changing Perspective on Christmas Attendance Targets for Your Church Dec 13, 2023

A New Metric for Success: The January Bump Traditionally, we judge the success of our Christmas services by the number of attendees. But what if we shifted our focus to what I like to call the ‘January bump’? Imagine measuring success not just by the numbers during Christmas but by the increase in attendance we […]

The Chosen: Stan Jantz on Reaching 1 Billion People, Ministry Innovation & Helping Your Church Dec 07, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Stan Jantz today, the Chief Executive Officer of The Come and See Foundation. In partnership with ministries around the world, Come and See is on a mission to share the authentic Jesus with 1 billion people worldwide. Throughout history, followers of […]

Residency Reflections: Saddleback Church’s Brittany Crimmel on Her Leadership Pathway So Far Nov 30, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brittany Crimmel, a Production Director at Saddleback Church in California. There is a leadership crisis in the local church with so many churches struggling to know how to find and develop people. However, by participating in internships and residencies, churches can contribute to developing the […]

Behind the Leader: Ian Borkent’s Journey of Burnout and Relaunch Nov 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Ian Borkent from C3 Rivers Church in the Netherlands. Ian also started the ministry Grow a Healthy Soul to help church leaders take care of their souls. Church leaders often focus on metrics such as attendance, salvations and finances to gauge the health of their church, […]

Secrets of Top Team Players: Insights from 30,000 Leaders & William Vanderbloemen Nov 16, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking again with William Vanderbloemen, the founder and CEO of Vanderbloemen Search Group, an organization that helps identify executive talent and matches value-based organizations with like-minded people. When it comes to hiring the best people, what factors cause them to shine? How can you learn to identify […]

Talking with Your Lender: Mark Briggs Offers Insider Advice for Growing Churches Nov 09, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mark Briggs, the Executive Vice President of Ministry Lending at CDF Capital. CDF Capital is dedicated to helping churches solve problems and bridge the financial gap often faced when trying to expand and reach more people. Mark has been with CDF for over 20 years, helping churches […]

Guest-Friendly Environments: Aaron Stanski on Effective Facilities for Your Church Nov 02, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Stanski, the founder and CEO of Risepointe, with fifteen years of church design and ministry leadership experience. Do you feel frustrated with your church building, or like it’s holding you back from fulfilling your mission? Aaron’s experience has given him unique insights into the common […]

Increasing the Generosity Culture at Your Church with Phil Ling Oct 26, 2023

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Phil Ling, a renowned expert on generosity in the church and founder of The Giving Church. Did you know that in the average church in North America, 45% of the people that give a church money give less than $200 […]

Increase Engagement with Data-Driven Strategies: Ronee de Leon on Unlocking Your Church Database’s Potential Oct 19, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Ronee de Leon, the Director of Executive Project Management from Grace Fellowship, a multisite church in Ohio. Many churches have some sort of church management software and mountains of data. But figuring out how to make it actionable so you’re connecting with your […]

Mission Trips vs. Strategic Visits: Nathan Nelson on Transformational International Partnerships for Your Church Oct 12, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nathan Nelson, Pastor of Mission and Outreach at Bethany Community Church in the Seattle, Washington region. Do you ever feel like short-term missions trips actually push against creating deep, lasting change in the communities you serve? Tune in as Nathan shares how to move beyond the […]

Engagement Pathway: Greg Curtis & Tommy Carreras on Best Current Practices on Assimilating People at Your Church Oct 05, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras. Greg is the Pastor of Guest Engagement at Eastside Christian Church, a multisite church in California, Nevada, and Minnesota. He’s also founder of Climbing the Assimalayas, a website focused on helping churches design an engagement pathway that fosters connection, enables […]

Transforming Team Culture: Karen Berge’s Insider View on the Shift from Unhealthy to Thriving Sep 28, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Karen Berge, the Executive Pastor of Ministry at Flatirons Community Church. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country with five physical campuses in Colorado as well as church online. Many churches are able to say there are good things happening there. […]

How to Leverage AI for Your Church & Your Future with Kenny Jahng Sep 21, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the second of a two-part series (you can listen to part one of the podcast here) with Kenny Jahng, an expert when it comes to using AI in the church, and the founder of Big Click Syndicate. In today’s episode we’re delving into the implications of […]

How Your Church Can Have the Best Year-End Ever with Kenny Jahng Sep 14, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the first of a two-part series with my friend, Kenny Jahng, the founder of Big Click Syndicate which helps cause-driven organizations get their messages in front of the right audiences. Did you know the last 45 days of the year are crucial for charitable giving? Because […]

Fostering Community in a Fast-Growing Multi-Campus Ministry: Scott Freeman on Effective Pastoral Care Sep 07, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scott Freeman, the Pastor of Community at Grace Church in South Carolina. As a church expands, there is a constant tension to manage between growth and deep community. Grace Church has experienced significant growth over the years with ten campuses and over 250 community […]

The Future of Faith is Child-Friendly: Stephen Moore on WinShape Camps for Communities Aug 31, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to be talking with Stephen Moore, the Director of WinShape Camps for Communities. WinShape, an organization started in 1985 by Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, started as a college program and has since grown into five different ministries, with focuses on professional development, marriages, […]

He Gets Us: Kyle Isabelli on Reaching Out to Non-Christians with Gloo Aug 24, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor of Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Wondering how to connect with hurting people in your community who might not venture through your church’s doors? In today’s episode Kyle and I have a fantastic conversation […]

Faith Forward: Fr. Peter Wojcik on Strategies for Engaging Millennials, Gen Z, & Gen Alpha in the Church Aug 17, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we are joined by Father Peter Wojcik, pastor at Saint Clement Parish in Chicago. Do you struggle to engage Gen Z in your church? Do you want to invite younger generations into ministry, but aren’t sure where to start? Saint Clement is a dynamic Catholic community in the […]

From Struggle to Success: Evan Courtney on Revitalizing a Church Campus Amidst Challenges Aug 10, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Evan Courtney, the Executive Pastor at The Fields Church in central Illinois. Have you ever experienced decline in your church or felt like everything was going wrong? Don’t miss this encouraging conversation as Evan testifies to the power of perseverance, overcoming obstacles that lead […]

Uniting the Church to Quench the Global Water Crisis: A Conversation with Mike Mantel Aug 03, 2023

Thanks for tuning into today’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Mantel, the CEO of Living Water International. They are a faith-based global humanitarian organization that links arms with churches around the world to serve thirsty communities through access to safe drinking water, sanitation, and hygiene. What if the church of Jesus Christ could end […]

Nurturing the Spirit of Advent with Families at Your Church: Chris Pappalardo & Clayton Greene on the GoodKind Approach Jul 27, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Greene from The Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina. Chris is Editor on the Creative Arts team and Clayton is the Summit Collaborative Director. Have you started planning for Christmas yet at your church? Are you looking for a way to help […]

The Art of Working with (Almost) Anyone: Michael Bungay Stanier Offers Coaching For You As You Lead At Your Church Jul 20, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with coach and writer Michael Bungay Stanier, who is best known for his book, The Coaching Habit, which is the bestselling coaching book of the century. We all know that not all work relationships can be perfect, but how can we improve them? In today’s episode, Michael […]

The Resilience Factor: Insights from Léonce B. Crump Jr. & Warren Bird on Unbreakable Teams Jul 13, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Léonce B. Crump Jr. and Warren Bird. Léonce is an author plus the co-founder and senior pastor of Renovation Church in Atlanta. Warren is a repeat guest on unSeminary. He works for the Evangelical Council for Financial Ability (ECFA) and is also the […]

When Pastors Aren’t Angels: Becca Pountney on Wedding Industry Challenges Jul 06, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Becca Pountney, the UK’s number one wedding business marketing expert and host of the podcast Wedding Pros Who Are Ready to Grow. Did you know that many wedding professionals have a negative perception of church weddings? From difficulty accessing church buildings and strict rules, to […]

Long-Term Vision, Lasting Impact: Curt Seaburg on Strategic Vision in Church Leadership Jun 29, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Curt Seaburg, the lead pastor of Victory Church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. While it’s important for church leaders to learn from each other, when it comes to vision, it’s critical to know yourself and the God-given calling for your church within its unique community. Listen to […]

Hybrid Church in a Digital Age: Collin Jones on the State of Church Tech Today Jun 22, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Collin Jones, the chief ambassador at Resi, part of the organization Pushpay. Pushpay provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app to the faith sector while Resi helps deliver reliable livestream solutions to churches. Online services and live streaming […]

Exploring the State of Church Staff Health: Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen on Findings and Insights from New National Study Jun 15, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast! Today is part 2 of a conversation that we started back in April with Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. If you’re curious about the state of church staff health in the US, you won’t want to miss this episode as we dive into the findings of […]

Discipleship Leadership Development in Church Planting: Stevie Flockhart’s Leadership Journey Jun 08, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stevie Flockhart, Lead Pastor of 901 Church in Tennessee. Have you ever struggled with the desire for personal recognition and validation in ministry? In this unSeminary podcast episode Stevie shares his personal journey and struggles with comparison and the desire for success. Listen in […]

Long-Term Leadership: Jeff Cranston on Steady, Purposeful Leadership Jun 01, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Lead Pastor Jeff Cranston with us from LowCountry Community Church in Bluffton, South Carolina. How can churches maintain balance in ministry and create engagement within their congregation and staff? This is a question that Jeff answers in today’s episode of the unSeminary Podcast. Don’t miss this conversation […]

Doing Less to Reach More: Trevor DeVage on 160% Church Growth in 18 Months May 25, 2023

Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lead Pastor Trevor DeVage from Pantano Christian Church in Arizona, one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Is your church in a season of growth, needing to streamline its ministries? Or are you trying to simplify your systems so that they […]

Practical Help on Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Ken Nash May 18, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Ken Nash, the Lead Pastor of Cornerstone Church in Michigan, is with us today. For decades churches measured how well they were doing based on counting nickels and noses, but with the upheaval and loss churches have experienced over the last few years, they need to change […]

Training Your Team to Lead Through Others with Phil Caporale & George Probasco May 11, 2023

Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lead Pastor, Phil Caporale, and Campus Pastor and Kingsway Leadership School Site Director, George Probasco, from Kingsway Church in New Jersey. As a church leader, one of the most challenging aspects of your role can be developing leaders. While it can be difficult to identify […]

Leaning in on the Important (& Potentially Awkward) Conversations Around Women in Leadership at Your Church with Lisa Penberthy May 04, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lisa Penberthy, a church leader and consultant with 20 years of experience and an M.Div and MBA in nonprofit management. She is currently serving as the COO at Dannah Investment Group and is passionate about stewarding people’s callings as well as church resources. […]

Closing the Gap Between Your Church’s Vision & Execution with Nick Thompson Apr 27, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Thompson, the Executive Pastor at The Living Stone Church in Denver, Colorado. How is your church executing on its vision? If you’re a church leader looking to create a practical framework for decision-making, a Vision Frame might be just what you need. Listen to this […]

Building a Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Sustaining a Strong Team Culture with Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen Apr 24, 2023

Welcome to today’s special episode of the unSeminary podcast where we are replaying our recent webinar called “Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Building and Sustaining a Strong Team Culture” with my friends Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. In this webinar, Todd and Matt discuss the importance of cultivating a healthy […]

Being a Clarity Champion on a Senior Leadership Team at a Fast Growing Church with Kasey Husen Apr 20, 2023

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kasey Husen, the Executive Director of Communicatons and Events at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. Kasey talks with us about the importance of having a Communications Director at the senior leadership level at your church. Beyond branding and marketing, Kasey shares how they can […]

Leading Through the Crisis Your Church is In (Or About to Be In) with Rusty George Apr 13, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George this week, the lead pastor of Real Life Church in Southern California. In addition to being a pastor, Rusty is a speaker, teacher and author focused on making real-life simple. As leaders, we all face difficult times and crises that challenge […]

Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress with Brian Dodd Apr 06, 2023

Thank you for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Brian Dodd back with us. He’s the Director of New Ministry Relationships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions, as well as blogging at Brian Dodd on Leadership and the author of several books. Brian is talking with us about the current state of the church […]

Sunday Service Dedicated to Pre-schoolers & Their Parents? Church Growth Lessons from Marcus Gibbs & Bubble Church Mar 30, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We have a real treat today. We recorded this interview in person while in London, England with Marcus Gibbs, Vicar at Ascension Church. Are you looking for innovative ways to reach unchurched communities and serve the next generation?Listen in as Marcus shares the simple yet engaging Bubble […]

Leveraging Data to Drive Ministry Outcomes at Your Church with Erik Henry Mar 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Erik Henry, the Executive Pastor of Central Christian Church in Wisconsin. Data is critical to accurately understand what’s happening at your church and what’s changing over time. Listen in as Erik discusses the importance of using data to make informed decisions at your church as […]

Moving from Spanish Translation to a Full Spanish Ministry with Tim Hill Mar 16, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Tim Hill, executive pastor at Bear Creek Church, located at the crossroads of West Houston, Katy and Cypress, Texas. Every zip code in America is more diverse today than it was ten years ago. And it will be even more diverse ten years […]

Seeking God’s Best for Your Church Even in a Hostile Environment with Terry A. Smith Mar 09, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Terry A. Smith with us today; he’s the lead pastor at The Life Christian Church (TLCC) which serves the New York City metro area. He recently wrote a devotional called, The Lord Bless You: A 28-Day Journey to Experience God’s Extravagant Blessings, and today we’re unpacking a […]

Building a Positive Working Relationship with Your Church’s Financial Institution with Eric Schroeder Mar 02, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re having a great conversation with Eric Schroeder, the president and CEO of CDF Capital, an organization that helps churches grow in order to transform lives and communities. Financial matters, like spiritual matters, are very personal. And when you’re dealing with something personal, it can be hard to develop […]

4 Minutes Every Weekend to Increase Revenue & Spread Culture at Your Church with Taleah Murray Feb 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Taleah Murray, the Executive Pastor of Ministries at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. One of the areas Taleah oversees at Crossroads is offering talks and using video to share the impact that the church’s generosity is having as people give. Listen in as she […]

Kadi Cole Interviews Rich Birch about Female Leadership in the Church Feb 16, 2023

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole who leads the organization Kadi Cole & Company which helps with leadership development, management skills training, executive level coaching and more. This time Kadi is taking over hosting the podcast as she interviews Rich on how men can open […]

XP Roundtable: Finances, Volunteers, Staffing & More with Lisa Penberthy, Jeremy Peterson & Brandon Beard Feb 09, 2023

What larger trends are impacting churches across the country? The landscape of our culture continues to shift & evolve. Growing churches respond to those changes and find ways to thrive. Learn from the latest insights on trends and how those impact you and your team. Don’t miss this special podcast episode as we hear from […]

Get a Head Start on Your Church’s Multi-Use Strategy with Frank Bealer Feb 02, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Frank Bealer, the co-founder and Chief Growth Officer of Phase Family Centers as well as Chief of Staff at Local Church. Is your church considering a multi-use strategy? Does it seem overwhelming as you think about how to get started and all that you […]

Help to Fight the Scourge of Predictability in Your Church Services with Lance Burch Jan 26, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Lance Burch from Reality Church in Omaha, Nebraska. He often explores and identifies current cultural phenomena and then tries to find a way to connect them to biblical truth. Listen in as Lance shares how to pay attention to the questions the culture around us is […]

Tithes & Offerings Are No Longer Enough To Fund Your Church with Mark DeYmaz Jan 19, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Mark DeYmaz, who planted Mosaic Church in Arkansas and is co-founder of Mosaix Global Network. We’re nearly a quarter of our way through the 21st century and yet some churches are still operating on models from the 1960s. In spite of good intentions […]

Reflecting on Seasons of Life, Leadership & Their Impact on Your Team with Lee Coate Jan 12, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lee Coate, the executive pastor at The Crossing in Las Vegas, and the president of Growmentum Group. Today Lee is talking with us about Growmentum Group, how they are helping church leaders accomplish their missions, and how to use the different seasons of leadership that are […]

Doing the Right Things for the Right Reasons with the Right People at Your Church with Scot Longyear & Heath Bottomly Jan 05, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re with returning guests Scot Longyear and Heath Bottomly today. Heath is the Lead Pastor of the Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona and Scot is the Senior Pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana. Scot and Heath talk with us about their book Fight […]

Lessons from Inside a Rapidly Multiplying Church with DeWayne McNally & Paul Schulz Dec 22, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with DeWayne McNally and Paul Schulz from Hill Country Bible Church in Austin, Texas. DeWayne and Paul both serve as executive pastors of ministry by dividing the responsibilities; DeWayne handles the operations, multiplication and family ministries while Paul takes care of the personal/spiritual growth related ministries, including […]

Reframing Evangelism at Your Church with Shaila Visser Dec 15, 2022

Thank for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Shaila Visser, the Global Senior Vice-President for Alpha International. Alpha is an 11-week course that creates a space for people to invite their friends for a conversation about life, faith and Jesus. Worldwide, an increasing number of pastors believe evangelism is wrong. This mindset, […]

Business as Core to the Mission of Your Church with Johnny Scott Dec 08, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to be talking with Johnny Scott, the lead pastor of Generations Church in Trinity, Florida. Ever wonder what a self-sustainable church might look like? Curious about how to use business as ministry? Listen in as Johnny Scott shares how churches can use holy-owned businesses to reach their […]

Working Genius with the Team at Your Church with Patrick Lencioni Dec 01, 2022

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Patrick Lencioni, one of the founders of The Table Group and an expert in leadership, teamwork, and organizational health. Pat’s also the author of 13 books which have sold millions of copies around the world, and today he’s talking with us about […]

In The Trenches of Guiding a Church to Be More Outsider Focused with Chuck Fenwick Nov 24, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Chuck Fenwick, lead pastor at New Haven UMC in Indiana. How do we build churches that are both reaching new people, and caring for the people who are with us? It’s a universal tension all church leaders face. Listen in as […]

What Are the Best Predictors of a Church’s Ability to Multiply Itself? A Warren Bird Conversation Nov 17, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Dr. Warren Bird with us today. He’s the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), and an author of over thirty books. Warren is back to talk about the New Faces of Church Planting survey which was performed back […]

Creating & Sustaining an Empowering Culture at Your Church with Dr. Derry Long Nov 10, 2022

Thanks for joining us here at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derry Long, from the Yellowstone Theological Institute. He’s served for 45 years in many church leadership roles and is here to share his knowledge with us. At churches, it’s not uncommon for 20% of the people to do 80% of the work, […]

Embracing a Team Mentality to Spark Growth at Your Church with Aaron Tredway Nov 03, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast – so glad that you have decided to tune in. This week we have with us Aaron Tredway, Lead Pastor of Fellowship City Church in Ohio. As church leaders, we know that when we empower others, we can accomplish more together than we can alone. But it can be hard […]

Under the Hood of a Multiplying Church of Nearly 30 Church Plants with Josh Husmann Oct 27, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Josh Husmann, lead pastor at Mercy Road Church in Indiana. Mercy Road is one of the top reproducing churches in the country with a passion for multiplying disciples, leaders, churches, and expanding the reach of the gospel throughout the state of […]

Leading Slow & Steady Change in a Fast Growing Church with Mark Williams Oct 20, 2022

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Mark Williams, Executive Pastor at New Day Christian Church in Port Charlotte, Florida. The last few years have seen a lot of changes for church leaders and their congregations. How do you continue to grow and change when people are burned out and […]

Gaining Brand Clarity That Makes Growing Your Church’s Mission Simple with Joey Speers Oct 13, 2022

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to talk with Joey Speers, a brand builder and digital marketer. He and his wife founded the Speers Collective Inc., the parent company of Creativ Rise and Brand Therapy. Joey is talking about how churches can generate brand clarity that makes growing their mission simple […]

Leading Change in the Midst of the Messiness of Ministry with Mike Bonem Oct 06, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mike Bonem, a coach and consultant who helps church leaders with vision discernment, organizational design and strategy. In the last three years, everyone has had to make massive changes. Now as churches have found their new normal and are looking to the future, there can […]

Technology Insights to Drive Ministry Outcomes with Aaron Senneff Sep 29, 2022

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Aaron Senneff, the Chief Technology Officer at Pushpay. Pushpay is a digital engagement platform that provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app, to churches. Technology is more important than ever in the church. But how […]

Outreach Lessons from the Statistically Most Secular City in North America with Jeremy Norton Sep 22, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jeremy Norton, lead pastor at Mountainview Church in Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. Being a church leader in a place like the Yukon is a little like living in the future. Listen in as Jeremy shares how to engage with your neighbors and city in a post-Christian […]

Practical Help on Taking Your Messages from Good to Great with Pete Briscoe Sep 15, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Pete Briscoe, who was the senior pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas for almost thirty years and preached through the Telling the Truth ministry, reaching an audience of more than 1.2 million people every week. Currently Pete is a coach for church and […]

Journey Beyond Burnout & Compassion Fatigue with Janetta Oni Sep 08, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Janetta Oni, the Creative Director at The Summit Church in North Carolina. Compassion fatigue is far more common in ministry than we might like to admit. It can be easy to wear busyness like a badge of honor while burning out in the process. But […]

Inside the Groups Ministry of a Fast Growing Baptist Church with David Raney Sep 01, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with David Raney, the Executive Pastor of Ministry from 2ND Baptist Church in Arkansas. 2ND Baptist is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, and as a growing church they want to make sure people get plugged in so they don’t fade away. Listen in […]

Advice on Taking Your Best Next Step When Life Is Uncertain with Jeff Henderson Aug 25, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jeff Henderson, founder of The FOR Company, which helps organizations build a good name where purpose and profit grow together. Many people are more familiar with what the Church is against rather than what the Church is for. What does your church WANT to […]

Aligning Mission & Organization to Achieve Creative Outcomes with Heath Bottomly Aug 18, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We are talking with Heath Bottomly, the Lead Pastor of Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona. Does your church’s organizational structure match the vision that you believe you have been called to? Listen in as Heath shares how to get clarity about what is true, realign your […]

Leading in the Unchangeable Present with Larry Osborne Aug 11, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Larry Osborne, the Teaching Pastor and Kingdom Ambassador at North Coast Church. North Coast has nine locations in California, one in Ohio, one in Hawaii, and one in both Mexico and Japan. Churches can be tempted to look back to the old way […]

Managing High Performance Multisite Creative Teams with Melody Workman Aug 04, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Executive Creative Director Melody Workman from California-based Sandals Church – one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years now. It’s hard for churches everywhere to build high performance volunteer teams. Often our growth strategy for volunteer teams doesn’t match our […]

Burnout, Perfectionism & Identity: Inside Chris Hahn’s Personal Journey to Restoration Jul 28, 2022

Welcome to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Chris Hahn, the Executive Pastor of Missional Spaces at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. In the demands and activity of ministry, church leaders can find there is a disconnect between their public leadership and struggles in their personal lives. Don’t miss today’s podcast […]

Leading Through Healthy Open Brokenness & Vulnerability with Carl Kuhl Jul 21, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Carl Kuhl with us, the lead pastor of one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Mosaic Christian Church in the Baltimore/Washington, DC area. Listen in as Carl shares about the missing piece that will help people in our churches go deeper, both with God […]

The Surprising Journey Toward Being a Community Focused & Fast Growing Church with Vern Streeter Jul 14, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Vern Streeter, the lead pastor at Harvest Church in Billings, Montana. Harvest Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the country and has had a long-time value of being community-focused. Listen in as Vern chats with us about paying attention to the […]

Balancing A Growing Family & Ministry with Paula Ley Jul 07, 2022

Welcome back to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Paula Ley, executive pastor at Radiant Church in the Tampa Bay area. Paula is talking with us about the spheres of influence in our lives and how to balance the busy seasons of ministry while still prioritizing our most important relationships. Ministry is […]

Latest Church Trends Post-COVID with Tony Morgan Jun 30, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tony Morgan, the founder and lead strategist of The Unstuck Group, which offers consulting and coaching for churches as well as practical resources such as courses, access to research and more – all to help churches get unstuck. The Unstuck Group does quarterly trend reports that […]

Healing the Racial Divide in Your Church with Derwin Gray Jun 23, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derwin Gray, the lead pastor at Transformation Church in South Carolina. In the bible we see every nation, tribe, and tongue worshiping Christ together, yet in our country and churches we continually see examples of the racial divide. Listen in as Derwin shares […]

Leading in Our Churches & Community in this Current Moment with Dino Rizzo Jun 16, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. In this episode we’ll be chatting with Dino Rizzo, the executive director of the Association of Related Churches (ARC) as well as part of the senior leadership team at Church of the Highlands. ARC was created in 2000 by six pastors and has grown to be a preeminent church […]

International Business & Marketing Coach Chris Ducker Offers Advice for Church Leaders Jun 09, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with marketplace leader Chris Ducker, who is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and runs several businesses. As churches find themselves more a part of the online world, there is continually a challenge to connect with people in a meaningful way. Listen in as Chris shares how to […]

Helpful Insights for Church Leaders with Brian Dodd Jun 02, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This time we’re talking with Brian Dodd, the Director of New Ministry Partnerships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions. He also runs a blog called Brian Dodd on Leadership which provides perspective, encouragement, and solutions for church and ministry leaders. When you look at the world today, there seems […]

Coaching on Rebuilding a “New” Launch Team for Your Church with Shawn Lovejoy May 26, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Shawn Lovejoy, the founder and CEO of Courageous Pastors and Courage to Lead. His work is all about coaching leaders around what keeps them up at night and focuses on personal and organizational growth. Shawn is talking with us about building and redeploying healthy teams in […]

Reflecting Back 5+ Years After a Sr. Leader Transition with Executive Pastor Kevin Cook May 19, 2022

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kevin Cook, executive pastor at Cross Point Church in the greater Nashville, Tennessee, area. They have six locations in middle Tennessee plus online services. God has entrusted those of us who are executive pastors with a significant leadership. While He may be preparing […]

Encouragement For You From Nearly 4 Decades of Ministry Experience with Greg Surratt May 12, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Greg Surratt, the founding pastor of Seacoast Church in the Carolinas and also a founding member of ARC, Association of Related Churches, which trains, coaches, and equips church plants across the country. So many pastors are wrestling with similar concerns and soul care issues today. They are […]

Pushing Your Church’s Culture Forward in This Current Season with Jenni Catron May 05, 2022

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenni Catron, the founder and CEO of the 4Sight Group which helps both leaders and their teams be healthy and thriving. With the disruptions that covid has brought, many church leaders are struggling with a sense of overload and fatigue. Shifts in how we […]

Insights on Pastoral Restoration After a Fall with Shawn & Sonny Hennessy Apr 28, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Shawn and Sonny Hennessy, from Life Church Green Bay in Wisconsin. Shawn and Sonny are also co-hosts of The Rise After the Fall podcast and together founded The Exchange Collaborative. The highs and lows of ministry, and the trials of life can threaten to destroy pastors […]

Latest HR Dynamics Impacting Your Church With Tiffany Henning Apr 21, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tiffany Henning, founder of HR Ministry Solutions which helps with human resources in churches and faith-based ministries. At the beginning of 2021, many churches were restructuring their staff. Now in 2022 with so much inflation, there are concerns about how to compensate staff fairly. These things […]

Helping You & Your Team Ditch Discouragement, Fear and Anxiety with Scot Longyear Apr 14, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scot Longyear, the senior pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana, and guest host for the Worship Leader Probs podcast. Two years after the pandemic, church leaders are still trying to figure out where to go from here. It’s been a tough season to […]

Moving Beyond the Stream of Church Online with Jay Kranda Apr 07, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda, the online pastor of Saddleback Church in California. Digital ministry is here to stay and churches need to think about how to move beyond just managing their weekend stream to actually connecting people online to the church and each […]

Shifting Paradigms Impacting Growing Churches with Sean Morgan Mar 31, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Sean Morgan, founder of The Ascent Leader, a year-long development program structured around relational cohorts which is designed to engage ministry leaders in transparent conversations and one-on-one coaching with world-class leaders. As we transition from COVID being pandemic to endemic, there are paradigms church leaders have […]

Tips for Making Your Church More Single Friendly with Kaylee Estes Mar 24, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kaylee Estes who was the Connections Pastor at Restoration Community Church in Denver, Colorado. More and more people are single in our churches today than in previous generations. Younger people are waiting longer to get married, the divorce rate continues to increase, and […]

Inside a 4X Growth In Group Engagement at a Growing Church with Joe Boyd Mar 17, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Joe Boyd, lead pastor of Grace Fellowship in Minnesota. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country as well as a church-planting church and have started 28 churches during their 34 years of service. Jesus changed the world with a small group. Groups […]

Crucial Conversations with Team Members at Your Church with Matt Slocum Mar 10, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Matt Slocum, executive pastor at Victory Life Church in Battle Creek, Michigan. Conflict is inevitable in relationships and it’s important to handle it well. Matt is talking with us today about how Victory Life Church sought to help its staff get better at having crucial […]

Is Church Multiplication on the Rise? Don’t Miss This Conversation with Warren Bird Mar 03, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Warren Bird, the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. It’s time for a fresh look to see what God is doing, especially coming out of the pandemic. If you’re wondering how church planting […]

Office Hours: Volunteer Recruiting Best Practices & Reaching New People Feb 24, 2022

Welcome to this month’s Office Hours episode. This month Rich is taking on your questions about building volunteer teams, and reaching people who might not normally attend your services. Leslie Moffat, administrative pastor, Celebration Church in Brantford, Ontario, Canada: “For churches with multiple services, do you recommend the same volunteers stay on for the entire […]

Stop Copying and Pasting the Announcements for Your Church! Feb 22, 2022

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I know this sounds like some homespun advice from your mom, but it does apply to looking for resources on the internet to improve the weekend services or announcements at your church. A quick search online will reveal an endless amount of templates and done-for-you resources that […]

In-Person Community & Bold Digital Innovation in a Lonely World with Benjamin Windle Feb 17, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with return guest Benjamin Windle from Life Place Church in Australia. Whether or not churches are going to opt in to the digital revolution is no longer an option. Now the question is, how do churches operate and minister in a digital world, particularly to younger […]

9 Tiny Habits That Can Cause Huge Disengagement During Announcements Feb 15, 2022

When you have a little pebble in your shoe, it’s hard to focus on anything around you besides that minor discomfort, right? We sometimes do the same thing with our tiny habits during our weekend service announcements. What about that little smudge from your kid’s finger on the TV as you watch the latest Hollywood […]

Increasing the Impact of the Serving Experience on Volunteers with Rachel Long Feb 10, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Rachel Long back on the podcast. She’s one of the executive pastors at Emmanuel Church, a multisite church in Indiana. Today Rachel is talking with us about building healthy volunteer teams within our churches. You can learn more about Emmanuel Church at www.eclife.org, […]

Why Church Leaders Can’t Stand Doing Announcements Feb 08, 2022

Do you dread being asked to get up and host a weekend service at your church? Can just talking about hosting the announcements this coming weekend make your stomach turn? Is your team pushing you to drop the announcements? And maybe even more worrying, do you have a good reason not to drop them? Are […]

Increasing Multi-Faith Proximity While Remaining Gospel-Centered with Kevin Singer Feb 03, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Kevin Singer, co-founder and co-director of the student-led movement, Neighborly Faith, which brings Christians and Muslims together. There is very little in the church to help equip believers regarding how to engage with our neighbors of other faiths in a way that […]

5 Leadership Hedges Against Inflation for Your Church Feb 01, 2022

Just when you thought the word “unprecedented” couldn’t possibly be used any more, we continue to climb into levels of inflation that haven’t been seen in over four decades. In fact, the last time we saw inflation this high, the world was a completely different place. We find ourselves leading in an environment of increasing […]

Office Hours: Attracting Young Families & Help with Hiring Your Next Team Member Jan 27, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this month’s Office Hours podcast episode. Today Rich is answering your questions about attracting young families and getting help with hiring your next team member. John Boyle, executive pastor, Calvary Bible Church in Boulder, Colorado: “I wanted to pick your brain on attracting more young families to our church.” Know […]

Mega to Meta? Your First Step in Starting a Metaverse Ministry with Jason Poling Jan 20, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jason Poling, lead pastor of Cornerstone Church of Yuba City in California. For the first ten years of Jason’s ministry as a pastor, he felt like he had been living in “maintenance mode.” While his church was experiencing growth, some of which was due to brand […]

Best Practices in Onboarding New Staff with Ken McAnulty Jan 13, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken McAnulty, executive pastor at Arise Church in Florida. The hiring process is tough, and ramping up new staff can be awkward and stressful if it isn’t done with a lot of intentionality. Ken is with us today to talk about how to […]

Rebuilding a Team Culture That Was Broken with Jesse DeYoung Jan 06, 2022

Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jesse DeYoung, the executive lead pastor at Flatirons Community Church in Boulder, Colorado. Jesse is talking with us today about how Flatirons Church worked through a difficult season of ministry, addressed their broken team culture, and witnessed God’s redemption among the staff. Recognize what’s not […]

Connection & Engagement Lessons from a Fast Growing Church During the Pandemic with Julie Hawkins Dec 23, 2021

Today we’re chatting with Julie Hawkins, the Next Steps Pastor at Chapel Hill Church in Washington state. So many churches had to quickly develop an online presence at the beginning of 2020 and it made the area of helping people take their next steps more challenging. Listen in as Julie shares how Chapel Hill Church […]

Helping Female Leaders in Your Church Find Their Leadership Voice with Kadi Cole Dec 16, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole, the founder of Kadi Cole & Company, an organization created to help leaders of all organizations. Kadi is with us today to talk about encouraging female leaders at your church while removing barriers from leadership opportunities. Find the drop off. // Many men in […]

Building a Team Culture at Your Church that You’ll Love with Brian Cook Dec 09, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brian Cook, the lead pastor of ACF Church (Alliance Christian Fellowship) in Eagle River, Alaska. Right now 4.5 million people in the US are quitting their job every month and 50% are looking for a new job. Staff culture is a big […]

Helping Teams Leverage, Not Loathe, Personality Differences with Eddie Hastings Dec 02, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Eddie Hastings, Executive Pastor of Ministries at Chets Creek Church in Florida. Eddie is talking with us about using personality tests to better build and communicate with your staff teams. Know and trust each other. // When a church grows, especially to have multiple campuses, […]

Bonus Deep Dive: Health Care Sharing For Churches? Marq James Helps Us Clear Up Misconceptions Dec 01, 2021

Are you a senior leader in church thinking about health care options for your team? Did you know that your team is anxious about this aspect of serving at your church? Today on unSeminary we want to help with that worry & stress. We are joined by Marq James, an expert in health care sharing […]

If Jesus Gave a TED Talk? Neuroscience Communication Principles The Master Teacher Used To Persuade His Audience with Charles Stone Nov 25, 2021

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Charles Stone, lead pastor at West Park Church in Ontario, Canada. He also is an author and provides training for pastors. 75% of people forget most of what they’ve heard from a talk within an hour. 90% forget what they’ve heard after a week […]

Leading a Fast Growing Church While Having Healthy Rhythms & Boundaries with Zeb Cook Nov 11, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Zeb Cook, the lead pastor at Apex Baptist Church in Apex, North Carolina. Zeb is talking with us today about establishing healthy rhythms and boundaries in your life so that you can continue to thrive in the ministry where God has called you. Create a system […]

Going International as a Multisite Church with Tommie Bozich Nov 04, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tommie Bozich, the executive pastor of Trinity Church, a multisite church with locations in Virginia and also internationally. Tommie is talking with us about what led them to launch a location in Stuttgart, Germany, and what a church should think about when considering […]

Practical Advice on Fostering a Kingdom Mindset In Your Church with Brian McMillan Oct 14, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Brian McMillan, from CenterPoint Church in Long Island, New York. Brian is talking with us today about how pastors can keep their souls healthy by being generous and Kingdom-minded toward church plants coming into their area. Challenges of church planting. // When planting a church, […]

Moving from Paid to Volunteer Music Teams in a Fast Growing Multisite Church with Stone Meyer Oct 07, 2021

Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stone Meyer, executive pastor from The Bridge Church in Tennessee. Stone is talking with us today about the musical worship part of services and how to develop excellence in your unpaid volunteer musicians. The musical worship aspect. // The musical worship aspect of services […]

Moving from Maintenance to Movement in this Season with Van Vandegriff Sep 30, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Van Vandegriff, lead pastor at Cedarcrest Church in Acworth, Georgia. Van is talking with us today about dealing with COVID and helping people at the church to shift out of neutral and reengage with the mission of the church. Reengage with the mission. // […]

Sermon Planning Rhythms that Produce Engaging & Faithful Content with Zach Lambert Sep 23, 2021

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Zach Lambert, lead pastor at Restore Austin in Austin, Texas. Zach is with us today to talk about how to take the stress out of sermon planning and coming up with biblical and engaging topics in your teaching. What are you preaching […]

Building Staff Culture While Leading During Trying Times with Rusty George Sep 16, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George, the lead pastor at Real Life Church in the Los Angeles area. He’s talking with us today about what it’s like stepping into the lead pastor role after the founding pastor. You can learn more about Real Life Church at reallifechurch.org and about Rusty […]

How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor with Carey Nieuwhof Sep 09, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Carey Nieuwhof, a leadership expert, author, speaker, podcaster, former attorney, and church planter. He’s with us today to share about how to address the crisis of overwhelm in our work and lives. Digital scales in a way that physical doesn’t. // After the pandemic, we […]

Leading Change That Lasts with Hillsong Atlanta’s Lisette Fraser Aug 12, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Lisette Fraser, the COO/executive pastor of Hillsong Atlanta. Leading through change is at the core of serving as an executive pastor and church leader. Today Lisette is talking with us about where to begin when stepping out and leading change in this […]

Inside Team Culture Development at a Fast Growing Church with Chad Asman Aug 05, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Chad Asman, executive pastor of Heritage Church just north of Detroit, Michigan. He is with us today to talk about developing team culture at your church to create future leaders. Start with culture. // Heritage Church worked to create a leadership pipeline not only […]

How to Get Traction on Execution at Your Church with Allie Bryant Jul 29, 2021

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Allie Bryant from Trader’s Point Christian Church. Although they have six campuses in Indianapolis, currently four are opened along with church online due to covid. Allie is the Strategic Alignment Executive for Traders Point and she loves getting the right people in the room to […]

Balancing the Healthy Tensions of the Executive Pastor Role with Tyler Althof Jul 22, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Tyler Althof, the associate pastor from Action Church in Florida. Tyler is with us today to talk about tensions to manage when you are leading from the second chair at a church. We need a sense of security. // As church leaders we need to […]

Tackling the Early Days as a New Executive Pastor with Matt Gilchrist Jul 15, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Matt Gilchrist, executive pastor at Hope City Church in Missouri. Matt is talking with us about getting up to speed as a new XP at a church and how to connect with your lead pastor, your staff, and spouse during this season […]

Improving Your Church’s Financial Competencies with Ken Fisher Jul 08, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken Fisher, Executive Pastor at Church at the Mill in South Carolina. As one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Church at the Mill has doubled in size in the last five years. As a church grows, the staff needs to consider how they […]

Leveraging Research to Drive Design & Communication Insights at Crossroads Church with Vivienne Bechtold Jul 01, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to be talking with Vivienne Bechtold, the Director of Studio and Leadership Development at Crossroads Church in Ohio. Crossroads has been one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years, but this growth hasn’t happened without being intentional about reaching those […]

Moving from Pre-Recorded Church Online to Live with JD Mason Jun 24, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with JD Mason, the online campus leader from Liberty Live Church in Virginia. JD is chatting with us today about how church online has evolved for Liberty Live Church since the pandemic and why they made the decision to transition to live, rather than prerecorded, broadcasts. Trial […]

Bonus Deep Dive: Current Best Practices in Operational Reserves for Your Church with Steve Carr Jun 23, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re doing a bonus deep dive about operational reserves and how much our churches should be saving. We have expert Steve Carr from CDF Capital with us to help us think through these questions. Maintain generosity. // During the pandemic, churches trended toward either maintaining their […]

National Church Leader Survey on Attitudes Towards In-Person, Remote, or Hybrid Work Arrangements Jun 22, 2021

Is your team moving back to an “in-person” office experience? Do you know how your team members feel about working at home once life looks a little more normal? What does the future of church leadership work arrangements look like? We must understand the impact that COVID-19 has had on our church leadership environment and […]

Rebuilding Connection At Your Church Post-COVID with Abby Ecker Jun 17, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Abby Ecker, Next Steps Pastor from The Journey in Delaware. She’s with us today to talk about getting people connected and helping them take steps from just attending weekend gatherings to moving into the core of the church. Help people take steps, not leaps. […]

Expanding the Leadership Voices at Your Table with Jeannette Cochran Jun 10, 2021

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re chatting with Jeannette Cochran, executive pastor Seneca Creek Community Church in Maryland. Jeannette is talking with us today about what it is like being a female executive pastor in a church and how you can empower more women to engage their gifts and lead […]

5 Mindsets Church Leaders Need to Change Post-COVID Jun 09, 2021

As the leader goes, so goes the organization. It’s often been said that the mindset of a leader ultimately drives the behavior of an organization. It’s a scary thought when you consider that our internal thought life can express itself in the people that we consistently lead. I think this is a truism when it […]

Season of Hope: Your Church’s Fall 2021 Growth Opportunity Jun 08, 2021

The coming months hold an unprecedented opportunity to see your church impact more people than ever before. As the country begins to shake off the shackles of COVID-19 and the ensuing economic calamity, we’re seeing new windows of opportunity. We must leverage this season for the message of Jesus. We can echo what Paul said […]

Focusing on Jesus in a Distracted World with Steve Brown Jun 03, 2021

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dr. Steve Brown, President of Arrow Leadership and author of the book Jesus Centered: Focusing On Jesus In A Distracted World. Steve works to help leaders find clarity, community and confidence in their work as Jesus-centered leaders. He’s talking with us today about how to lead […]

Improving Your Working Partnership with an Executive Assistant with Jannet Morgan May 27, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Jannet Morgan, the Executive Assistant (EA) to Lead Pastor, Tim Lucas, at Liquid Church in New Jersey. She’s with us today to talk about the role of the EA supporting leadership in the church and how to make the most out of that partnership. Be […]

Applying Pandemic Learnings from Church Online to Post-Pandemic Church with Jenn Clauser May 20, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenn Clauser, the Director of Communications at Coker United Methodist Church in San Antonio, Texas. She’s with us today to dig deeper into online church and how to integrate it as a core part of our mission to reaching people who are far […]

Is Your Team Languishing? Practical Help for Executive Pastors. May 18, 2021

It’s clear that we’re entering a post-pandemic stress period in the life of the local church. All around us we see signs that our teams are stressed and not sure what to do next. Anecdotally, we’re hearing about huge turnover at churches, and we cannot ignore the rising anxiety in leaders across the country. Recently, […]

Pete Briscoe’s Lessons from Coming Alongside Senior Leaders to Help with Communication & Self Care May 13, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Pete Briscoe, who served as the senior pastor for nearly three decades at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, and now consults with and coaches pastors. He is with us today to talk about growing communication skills to improve preaching as well as how […]

Pitfalls and Possibilities of VR Church with Jonathan Armstrong May 06, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Jonathan Armstrong today, an educator who has also helped run the virtual reality (VR) lab at Moody Bible Institute. Our perspective on what technology is and how it’s affecting our world keeps changing. In fact as younger generations have grown up with […]

Practical Strategy for Developing High-Capacity Volunteers with Danny Franks Apr 29, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast! This week I’m chatting with a repeat guest, Danny Franks, Pastor of Guest Services at The Summit Church. The Summit Church has twelve locations around North Carolina and the heart of the church is set on sending. They continually want their people to be asking: how does God want […]

Practical Help for Church Leaders in Emotional and Spiritual Growth with Bill & Kristi Gaultiere Apr 22, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Bill and Kristi Gaultiere from the organization Soul Shepherding. Bill and Kristi felt called to study psychology for the purpose of ministry, and serve as spiritual directors and pastors to pastors. Soul Shepherding offers resources and training for pastors and leaders and […]

How to Beat the Spring Lull & Gain Momentum at Your Church Apr 21, 2021

The season between Easter and summer is a strange one in the life of a church. Many churches gain momentum coming up to Easter and then find the weeks that follow before summer arrives, drag on. In any other year, this lull in momentum can feel difficult to climb out of; however, this spring is […]

Turning Obstacles into Opportunities: Church Real Estate Lessons with Andy Wood Apr 15, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Andy Wood, founding and lead pastor of Echo Church in California. Many times in ministry, the thing that should be an obstacle actually can become an opportunity if we think about it differently. Echo Church held strongly to this idea when it […]

Loving the Church You Serve with Carl Kuhl Apr 08, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with church planter and lead pastor Carl Kuhl from Mosaic Christian Church in Maryland. Mosaic was planted in the fall of 2008, launching first in a movie theater, and has become one of the fastest growing churches in the country. When planting a […]

3 Key Lessons For Your Church From a Study of 20,000 Online Events Apr 06, 2021

Recently, a report entitled The State of Virtual Events 2021 was released, which looked at the experiences of 100 leading brands that ran over 20,000 online events in the last year. This study explores these brands’ thinking around online events as they have made the “great pivot” to utilize this option more and more. Like […]

Helping Leaders Slow Down with Christa Hesselink Apr 01, 2021

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Christa Hesselink, founder of the organization SoulPlay. SoulPlay offers creative experiences, curated resources, and personal support to help individuals and groups dig deeper, listen well, and journey towards loving themselves, others, God, and our world, well. The last twelve months have been incredibly […]

How to Help People Who are Burned, Bruised, or Wounded in Your Church with Steve Grusendorf Mar 25, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Steve Grusendorf who is a part of the denominal leadership at the Christian and Missionary Alliance. He started as a local pastor at a CMA church, always serving in leadership development, and a few years ago became involved in this aspect at […]

Pandemic to Endemic: Five Questions Your Church May Still Need to Answer About COVID-19 Mar 23, 2021

The cultural and economic impact of COVID-19 is one of the greatest influences on the local church in at least a generation. Over the last year, we’ve seen COVID-19 impact our ministries in innumerable ways. In some respects, COVID-19 has accelerated positive change in the local church. The shift to equipping the majority of churches […]

Working at Health while Facilitating for Growth with Renaut van der Riet Mar 18, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Renaut van der Riet from Mosaic Church in the Orlando, Florida area. Passionate about making the gospel beautiful however they can, Mosaic is continually pursuing how they can serve each other and how they can serve their community. This heart has led to […]

Practical Help for Church Leaders Dealing with Home Life Pressures with Michelle Leichty Mar 11, 2021

Thanks for joining in to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Michelle Leichty, the Communication Director at Covenant Church in Indiana. For many church leaders, managing their homes and serving in ministry has been especially challenging to balance during the pandemic. Shifting back and forth between work burdens […]

Speaking Truth to the Hearts of Executive Pastors with Kevin Davis Mar 04, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Kevin Davis from 2|42 Community Church in Michigan. Kevin is one of the executive pastors and focuses on small groups, culture, and leadership development. What makes a good ministry leader? How can you learn to lead yourself well? How do you work through conflict […]

Moving a Fast Growing Multisite Church from Centralized to Decentralized Leadership Structure with Rachel Long Feb 25, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Rachel Long, Executive Pastor of Families and Multisites at Emmanuel Church in the greater Indianapolis area. Making the decision to go multisite and growing to multiple campuses will inevitably lead to a discussion about who answers to who on staff. The dotted […]

The Reason Your Church Marketing Isn’t Working Feb 23, 2021

Are you wondering why those Facebook ads that you’ve been running for the last few months don’t seem to be translating into people connecting, neither in person nor online? Have you tried multiple flyer drops in your neighborhood and you’re desperately hoping that maybe one person would show up, but it just hasn’t happened? Are […]

Something is Broken: A Conversation About What Christian Leaders Should Stop Saying about Sexual Abusers with Tanya Marlow Feb 19, 2021

This is a special edition of the unSeminary podcast. Many church leaders don’t know what to say when it comes to the revelations around disgraced Christian leader, Ravi Zacharias. Earlier this week I bumped into Tayna Marlow’s article on this topic entitled “But his books are still good, right? – 5 things Christians must stop […]

Everyday Ways to Help Your People Change the World with Dave & Jon Ferguson Feb 18, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to have Dave and Jon Ferguson with us from Community Christian Church. Community has nine locations in Illinois as well as online services and works in three correctional facilities. Almost all Christians want to share the love of Jesus with their friends and neighbors. […]

Former Divorce Lawyer Offers Perspectives on Marriage with Toni Nieuwhof Feb 11, 2021

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Toni Nieuwhof. Toni’s extensive experience as a family lawyer, pharmacist, and church leader has given her unique and practical insights on how people grow emotionally, personally and spiritually. Although we don’t know the impacts of the pandemic on marriages and the […]

Increase Your Church’s Volunteer Teams with This Proven Multisite Expansion Tactic Feb 09, 2021

Does your church have fewer volunteers today than it did a year ago? Are you wondering how you’re going to rebuild your church’s teams after everything that’s happened with COVID-19 and the way our culture has changed as a result of the pandemic? Have you wondered where you go next when it comes to gaining […]

Increasing Prayer, Transparency and Accountability on Your Church Team with Darrell Roland Feb 04, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Darrell Roland, from Rock Bridge Community Church. They have six locations in Georgia and Tennessee as well as a Spanish service. One of the roles of the executive pastor is the management and leadership of the staff, and so today we’re talking about […]

MrBeast Burger: What Is It? What It Can Teach Your Church! Feb 02, 2021

If you’re not familiar with YouTube culture, you might not have heard of MrBeast. Jimmy Donaldson (aka MrBeast) is the top content creator on the platform for 2020, and he’s super engaging. Over the years, he’s produced some amazingly creative content that has earned him over 51 million subscribers and all kinds of awards. He […]

Becoming A Multicultural Church with Dave Swaim Jan 28, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dave Swaim, pastor at Highrock Covenant Church and president of the Highrock Network in the Boston area. The Highrock Network is a family of churches with a shared vision for locally focused congregations. Highrock Covenant Church began when a group of “spiritually homeless” individuals started […]

Carey Nieuwhof Interviews Rich Birch as unSeminary Celebrates 1.5 Million Downloads! Jan 25, 2021

This week we’re celebrating YOU, dear listeners! We always want to do everything we can to set you up for success – we’re always cheering for you! We’ve reached out to some friends who love serving church leaders like you and have put together some fun giveaways in honor of hitting 1.5 million downloads on […]

Church Based Justice Ministry That Doesn’t Drift from a Firm Faith-Based Foundation with Aaron Graham Jan 21, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Graham, the lead pastor of The District Church in Washington, DC. The District Church was started in 2010 with the desire to be a church for the city, impacting it for Christ one neighborhood at a time. In an area where […]

5 Forgotten Ingredients in Your Church’s Giving Moments Jan 19, 2021

The two minutes before you ask people to give to your church during your services are vitally important financially, both for the future of your church and for your people. Giving moments are an important part of your church’s system for increasing generosity and pushing the mission of your church forward. If your church is […]

Lead with What Your Church CAN DO with Chris Bell Jan 14, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Chris Bell, from 3Circle Church in the Mobile, Alabama area. When the pandemic started, all we heard about was new restrictions and what we couldn’t do. Chris was immediately challenged to focus on what the church CAN do each day. Listen in as Chris shares […]

5 Mistakes Churches Make Onboarding New Staff Jan 12, 2021

Hiring is the single most expensive decision that most church leaders will make over the course of their ministry. In many churches, staffing accounts for anywhere between 30 percent and 50 percent of the annual budget. You want to make sure that, as you hire new team members, you invest what you can at the […]

Helping Your People Add Keystone Habits that Grow Their Spiritual Lives in 2021 with Zach Zehnder Jan 08, 2021

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Zach Zehnder with us today, the author and founder of the Red Letter Challenge. RLC began with the simple concept of trying to help people be greater followers of Jesus. It started as a book, leading the reader on a 40-day life-changing discipleship experience […]

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Your Church Doesn’t Need Another Idea—It Needs a Plan

What used to be “attractional” is now baseline

Follow the data, not the hot takes

Church’s Leading the “New Attractional” Movement

What actually died?

The Playbook: Normalize invitation, then engineer integration

Objections, answered

Don’t confuse needed reforms with funerals.

Ready to See Growth Again?

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1. First-Time Guest Capture Rate: Growth Without Names = Decline in Disguise

2. New Donor Retention Gap: The Revolving Door of Giving

3. Follow-Up Speed to First Touch: Delay = Decay

4. Kids/Students Capacity Ratio: The Family Filter

5. Staffing Leverage: Stop Hiring Doers, Start Hiring Leaders

The Hard Truth and the Way Forward

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Why Teaching on Generosity Matters (Right Now)

Steal These Ideas for Teaching on Generosity

Crossroads Church (Cincinnati, OH) — Tithe Test + The Blue Team

Liquid Church (NJ) — Generous Livin’ with Receipts

Pantano Christian (Tucson, AZ) — Altars of Generosity

Life.Church — Making Change

Saddleback (Lake Forest, CA) — Uncommon Cents

How to Preach Money with Clarity (and Zero Cringe)

The Elephant in the Auditorium

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