unSeminary Podcast

**Healthy Things Grow: Building a Unified and Thriving Staff Team with Chad Bickley** Feb 20, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with **Chad Bickley**, the executive pastor at **Skyline Church** in California.

Is your church experiencing growth, but you’re struggling with how to maintain a healthy team culture? Wondering how to create a culture that drives growth while ensuring your staff remains aligned and healthy? In this episode of the unSeminary podcast Chad shares valuable insights on building a staff culture that defines how to achieve the church’s vision while maintaining health.

**Keep your team focused.** // Skyline Church has been recognized as one of the fastest-growing churches in the U.S. and has ambitious goals under its *10/10/10 Vision*—reaching 10,000 people in 10 years in 10 campuses or church plants. The growth of a church requires more people on the staff, but it’s critical to hire people who are the right fit. Fast growth with an unhealthy staff can be disastrous. Be intentional about clarity and health in your team in order to keep them focused on your church’s mission.

**Six core behaviors.** // Churches often create vision statements but they don’t identify the behaviors required to achieve their vision. At Skyline Church there are six core behaviors that they look for in their staff and constantly drill into them. These are: attitude, commitment, work ethic, accountability, trust, and love. Skyline actively reinforces these behaviors through cultural spotlights in weekly staff meetings, hiring processes, and performance reviews.

**Start with the right attitude.** // The number one core behavior Skyline’s staff focuses on is level one: attitude. The standards surrounding the right attitude are humility, gratitude, and being a teammate. A person’s attitude is foundational because it affects all of the other core behaviors.

**Your work ethic is like a traffic light.** // The level three core behavior is work ethic. It emphasizes working more enthusiastically with grit and with a mindset of how you can be more efficient and better today than yesterday. Think of your work ethic as a traffic light with each color representing your mood. If you’re in the yellow, you’re getting frustrated and need to think about what is going on inside you. In the red? You need to step all the way back to level one and work on your attitude. Skyline emphasizes to start every day in the green.

**Pastor/director meetings to stay healthy.** // To keep staff aligned and pulling in the same direction, Skyline Church has a weekly pastor/director meeting with about 20 staff. The meeting includes a cultural section, an awareness section, and a discussion section. The cultural portion involves cultural spotlights where team leaders highlight stories from the past Sunday. They also report “wins” as well as “stucks” which they are trying to work through. The awareness segment highlights what the team is hearing and seeing, and they wrap up with a discussion which covers any other items of note.

To learn more about Skyline Church and connect with Chad, visit www.skylinechurch.org. Plus, to see how Skyline uses its six core behaviors, download their core identity book here.

EXTRA CREDIT // **10-10-10 Vision Planning Retreat Overview**

Do you want to inspire your leadership team to dream big and align around a unified church vision? The **10-10-10 Vision Planning Retreat Overview** is your step-by-step guide for hosting a two-day retreat that will energize your staff and refine your ministry strategy. With actionable discussions, engaging team exercises, and prayerful worship moments, this resource will help you map out a bold 10-year plan broken into achievable steps over the next 10 quarters and 10 months.

Ready to take your learning to the next level? Access this resource now in **unSeminary Extra Credit** and bring clarity and focus to your church’s mission. Get it here.

Thank You for Tuning In!

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***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe***

Do you feel like your church’s facility could be preventing growth, and are you frustrated or maybe even overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your church building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that your church could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe has been there. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead your church to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Licensed all over North America, their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to help move YOUR mission forward.

**Check them out at Risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there get their FREE resource “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build”.**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited that you’ve decided to tune in. You know, today I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation because I know this is going to be one of those things that all of us can relate to and it can be really super applicable to our churches. Excited to have Chad Bickley with us. He is the executive pastor at Skyline Church in ah in California. It was founded in 1954 and has a rich history of growth and overcoming obstacles become one of the fastest growing churches in the country.
Rich Birch — Currently, if I’m counting correctly, Skyline has two locations in ah California, one in Arizona, and one in Tennessee, which is a fantastic story, as well as services online. Chad, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here today.
Chad Bickley — Thanks for having me.
Rich Birch — Why don’t you fill in the picture there? Kind of tell us a little bit about Skyline. You know, if we were to come this weekend, what we would experience, and and tell us a little bit about your role.
Chad Bickley — Yeah, I think Skyline, like you said, has a very rich history. We’re 70 years this year and only four pastors.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing.
Chad Bickley — And so, um you know, it started with Orville Butcher who launched the church and it and then John Maxwell was after him, who is who has taught us all a lot of leadership skills. And then it went to Jim Garlow and in that transition from um Maxwell to Garlow is when the campus moved to its current place. And that’s a that’s a huge story of of a miracle on the hill, to be honest. But those guys really battled through to to build this place. And then Jeremy um came on about six years ago. And actually, yeah, six years ago and has been the fourth pastor there.
Chad Bickley — And really, you can you can see God’s hand in each each four guys. And and Jeremy has ah as a major heart for the lost and and and so if you’d come on our campus it would it would be very um ah outreach focus…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Chad Bickley — …very he he he tailors his message that reaches a first time person but also people who’ve been there a long time. So he has a he has a great gift of of, you know, whoever you are in that message, you know, you walk away with, you know, being challenged and motivated to be able to, to move forward. We have a, our strategy is called OIKOS. And, uh, that, that strategy is it’s, it’s in the Bible and touch talks about it’s a relational network of 8 to 15 people.
Chad Bickley — So everybody, has a relational network of 8 to 15 people. And we provide cards that write those people down on your on the cards. We want you to pray for them. And that will give you an opportunity you know when it presents yourself that you know we always say an invite can change a life to invite them to church. And that’s our responsibility as Christians, right? And so we really drive that that strategy into our people um to you know to go out to their OIKOS. And it and it’s really taken off and it’s really been um you know put put, you know us as pastors, you know, we’re responsible as well. But it’s it’s it’s also everybody that’s in the church to be able to equip them with the things we reach their community as well. So.
Rich Birch — Nice.
Chad Bickley — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Love it. That’s so cool. I, that’s really got my attention. I’d love to drill into that. And we might get to some of that today ah because I think there’s a ton there around even just how do we make it make it visible in our people’s lives around who should we be inviting and who you know who are the people that we should that – I love that. That’s such a great, so great practical strategy there.

Rich Birch — You know, pulling back the curtain a little bit. We, you know, are often pursue people to come on the podcast because they end up on Outreach 100 fastest growing church list. And I loved when I saw Skyline bump up on this list this year, I think for the first time. And I was like, I’m pretty sure that was the church Maxwell was at. And then dug into your history a little bit. And I love this because oftentimes we see churches on that list that are like 10 years old or 12 years old. They’re like the the ripe old age of 15 years. But you know here’s a church founded in the 50s that is obviously experiencing um you know some great great things going on, which is is great to see.
Rich Birch — And I can imagine leading in that environment has been challenging that as an executive pastor, we we see the like, oh, it’s all positive and upside. But what have been some of the challenges that you’ve had to face as an executive pastor on the like, looking under the hood a little bit, stuff that you’ve had to kind of tackle in the midst of all that.
Chad Bickley — Yeah, I mean, I would say the biggest thing is just growing pains and what comes with that. You know, you’re your staff, I feel like, you know, we’re very culture-focused. We’re very, you know, we we have a a vision right now of 10/10/10, which is 10,000 people in 10 years in 10 campuses or plants.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Chad Bickley — And, um you know, as a part of that, our our church has bought in and and movin’ and and ah but but it also requires more more people. And to balance that in San Diego where the cost of living is super high…
Rich Birch — It’s so true.
Chad Bickley — …and to get the right people because that’s everything to us. And and really give them the clarity to move forward because ultimately we don’t want to get to 10,000 people and we have an unhealthy staff.

Rich Birch — No, that’s good.

Chad Bickley — And we really don’t you know we put out numbers for numbers sake because we we say every every name has a story, every uh every story matters to God. And well for us It is it is it is less about the numbers but it is definitely a target for us to go after. And then we get the process of how we got there, right? So so it’s really important for us that, that, you know, we have given God the results, like whatever you want, you take it. But are we doing our part that we’re a team and we’re driving in the right direction? And, you know, in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is just a great illustration of roles and responsibilities and how that the body makes up the team. And and so we really, we really are intentional about health in our teams. And and so really, that is the focus. And and because we believe healthy things grow. So.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, let’s dig into that. Cause I think there’s, there’s lots of folks that would be leading their executive pastor of a, you know, maybe not a church as large as yours, 1,000, 1,500 people. And they would say, yeah, I want a healthy staff team as well, but I feel like we’re struggling on that front. What have you been able to do to try to keep your staff aligned, keep them healthy, keep them focused on, you know, where you’re going as a church?
Chad Bickley — Yeah, you know, just a quick, my background, Pastor Jeremy and I, um we actually we played college basketball together. He he he went his story is incredible when it come when he became a Christian. He was in professional baseball, didn’t know the Lord. And and then he came to Christian Heritage College where we met. And we played we played college basketball. Again, I went I went the route of administration and coaching. And he went into ministry. But we’re we’re very close.
Chad Bickley — Actually, my wife and I helped him start a church. And and which which has led to where we are now, which is kind of ironic. But I I my passion you know is more in teams, coaching. And so you know about 20 years ago, just really had a you know, when I was, ah I’ve been coaching for just a really long time. And, and, and so when, when I got, I don’t coach anymore. I gave it up two years ago, but in the midst of all of that, I’ve, I, I had this desire of just like, you know, what, what are the best doing?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Chad Bickley — You know know they all had a a philosophy. And that philosophy comes out of, you know, you and and who you are. And and so we we implement that in a little little basketball team at a Christian school. And and really Patrick Lencioni has been a big influencer in my life as well.
Rich Birch — So true.
Chad Bickley — And he has six questions that you need to ask, answer. Why do we exist? How do we behave? What do we do? How will we succeed? What’s important now? And who does what?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Chad Bickley — And the leaders are actually at the bottom pushing everybody back to the top. And and so when so when, I never wanted to come to Skyline, to be honest. [Inaudible] very close, I was very happy where I was.

Rich Birch — You’re like, no, it’s good. I’m good. Love it.

Chad Bickley — My family was, was my my wife teaches at the school, my kids went to the school. And so when when when this went through, it was definitely a a journey of, a I always tell people it was a 45 day journey that was nuts to me. But it was super, super, super clear in the direction that that God was calling me to do.
Chad Bickley — And I actually remember the day that I was going there and I was I was actually sad. Because I was just like, you know, what is this? But I know at the time, Skyline was going, you know, needed, you know, Jeremy was a perfect timing for this. He came in, um started to create, you know, culture. And when I came in, just help with this. You know, I think a lot of people, a lot of churches have vision. A lot of, you know, we created a vision statement, but we have a purpose statement. But I think the thing that’s missing is just how do we behave to reach that?
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Chad Bickley — I would say the number one thing that most organizations, you know, places, churches miss is they don’t define how we behave…

Rich Birch — Right.

Chad Bickley — …to reach the vision.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Chad Bickley — And then get the people, because every interview we look through and when we look for these six things in in the people that we hire and then we drill it. And it’s been amazing to watch how this has started to go deep into the roots of our teams. It’s starting to go into our volunteers and they’re starting to speak the language because culture is a language that you speak.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Chad Bickley — And all these phrases that we have, you know, are are embedded in the different situations that take place. And so, you know, we have a ah core identity book with six core behaviors that that we really drill into. We do our annual reviews on them. We do our six months reviews on them. We we do cultural spotlights on them. We just have every month we do something um like we drill it into our team to be like, I mean, this is how we behave. You have a conflict, that’s level four accountability.
Rich Birch — Right.
Chad Bickley — We don’t want drama, because drama slows us down. So you gotta attack that. You’re either water or gas in a situation. And so we really use these phrases to really end drama. And that’s where my trigger goes off, is when I see a little bit of drama, it’s like, okay, how are we handling this? Because that’s gonna slow us down, and the mission’s bigger than all of us, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Chad Bickley — And so, the best part about being this job…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Chad Bickley — …is I can hire for my weaknesses. And so I had an awesome team that that really is is experts in their areas, and yet they’re not they’re they’re not siloing people. They’re bringing us together because we’re one team. And I think the biggest caution I would have in churches is you’re siloed. If your teams are siloed, and then then they’re not coming together. If we’re not celebrating, you know, youth had ah five baptisms and the worship department isn’t celebrating, like how can we help you even, you know, on on those days. And they’re helping them succeed and they’re, and all this. That’s health to me and that’s been very, very important. And really, that’s what we control. We control our attitudes and our effort.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Chad Bickley — So we control those things. And so that’s what we’re gonna control. We can’t control the numbers…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Chad Bickley — …but we can control the clarity…

Rich Birch — Yeah, what we do.

Chad Bickley — …in which we believe God’s vision that’s given to Pastor Jeremy can get going. I’d be kind of passionate about this stuff because I know it works and…
Rich Birch — Well, yeah, its well, there’s a bunch I want to dig into here. So the one of the insights I want to underline that you said you said is, yeah which I think is so true, why we exist. You know, at the end of the day, all churches exist for some combo of either the Great Commission or acts one go into all the world. Like we’re we’re, you know, we’re a combo of those things. Most churches, or we probably should be. That’s what Jesus told us to do. But how we do it, how we behave – I love that distinction of like, hey, we got to be super clear with our people. And we’ll provide a link to this, but you’ve given us this ah this playbook that really outlines these six um behaviors.
Rich Birch — And, you know, level one to level six: attitude, commitment, work ethic, accountability, trust, love. When you think about those six, maybe let’s dive in on one of them to start that is maybe where you see your team getting tripped up, where it’s like, hey, we’re having a lot of level three conversations or a lot of level four conversations. Or, you know, where is it that we’re, you know, we we kind of, you’re getting the kind of most, either resistance, or you’re getting the most traction on kind of but pushing towards the kind of culture you want to you want to create.
Chad Bickley — You know, when we first came in and you you you start to do a different culture per se than what was in the past, you have to clearly identify it. And I would say if if we received any resistance to that, it was probably in the beginning. But the great thing is with the clarity, some people are like, yeah, that that’s just not me. And it ended healthy.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Chad Bickley — Right? And so, but it also, what it also did, it took people that were in it that gave them clarity that they, they shined and they, they grew. But I would say the number one thing we focus on is level one attitude.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Chad Bickley — And there’s standards that we talk about is humility, gratitude, and being a teammate. And so those three things, and we just say it starts every day with that one. It’s not like you get to level three and um you go, you’re you’re there. No, it’s every day you start with level one. And if you’re struggling with your work ethic, go back to level one.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Chad Bickley — Because you are thanking the good Lord for the things that he has brought your way and then all of a sudden it helps your commitment, it helps your work ethic, it helps your accountability and so forth.
Chad Bickley — So really that that foundational piece is so huge and really what these core behaviors are, are a mindset. And that mindset, the more you get people pulling in the same direction with the same mindset, the more you’re going to see God can take you know you to a whole new level.
Chad Bickley — I mean, we use the example of the Clydesdale horses we’re using it in staff meeting yesterday. It’s like one horse can pull 8,000 pounds, two horses, you know, that are working together can do three times their weight, can do 24,000 pounds. But two horses trained working together with the same mindset, they can do 32,000 pounds.

Rich Birch — Wow, wow.
Chad Bickley — And so, when you have that same mindset and we just talk about our mindsets, level six mindset. It’s those six things. And if we’re all doing that together, you’re going to see things like the fourth fastest growing church. And if that’s what God has in mind, right? And now we can’t walk around just being like, Oh no, we’re the fourth fastest. No, it’s like, man, thank, thank you guys. It’s all in our approach to him and our gratitude to him because it’s, he’s the one, you know?
Rich Birch — Love it.

Chad Bickley — And we can’t, it doesn’t make sense. You know, God can do immeasurably more what you ask or think. And that’s what he’s done. And now we’re like, okay, God, what do you have next that’s beyond our imagination. And so really that foundational level one attitude is just huge for us. Cause are you being humble? Are you grateful? Are you being a teammate or are you being a player on a team? Because those are two different things.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Very good. I love that. I love that Clydesdale horse example as well. I’m sure I know somewhere there’s pastors writing that down. They’re like, Oh, I’m going to rip that off. We’re going to use that in a team meeting next week, which is wonderful.

Rich Birch — Level three: work ethic. So this one, to be honest, stood out to me. I was like, it’s interesting to me. So level three: work ethic – work enthusiastically with grit and with a mindset of how you can be more efficient and better today ah ah than yesterday. So love this idea. I love that you’re calling this out. Sometimes the church is looked at as being like, Oh, that’s where people that don’t have good work ethics go to work. And you’re pushing against that here. Man, there’s like a lean in, Hey, we’re going to make stuff happen. Talk to me about what are some ways that this level kind of works itself out with your, with your team.
Chad Bickley — Yeah, I mean, sports background, my dad was a farmer in Wisconsin before we moved out to California. It’s just, there’s there’s things, you gotta get after it. I mean, you gotta to work hard, but there’s also this like, work ethic could be a um a negative thing, but we want to change it into a positive thing. And again, it builds on itself.
Rich Birch — Right. Yep.
Chad Bickley — So you you start with, I’m a team name, I’ll do whatever, you know,
Rich Birch — Yeah, I’ll do whatever for you. Yeah, I’m going to help you. We’re going to pull on this together.
Chad Bickley — We’re we’re in this together. I’m gonna be a teammate.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Chad Bickley — Worship’s gonna help youth. Youth’s gonna help worship. This is gonna, you know, and it’s like, you start with that. All of a sudden, your commitment level, we identify all the commitment levels, but when you get to work ethic, we identify it in, three three uh like a traffic light – green, yellow, red. So you can identify your mood, right? So if you’re in the yellow, you’re frustrated. You’re, you know, you’re you’re complacent, you know. And if you’re in the red, you’re you’re gone, right? And so you go back to level one you need to take a thankfulness walk. You need to do something to get back going, right?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Chad Bickley — And so really that mindset, and this is how me personally so much, cuz it’s like when you walk into meeting it’s like, man, what color am I right now? Why is everybody in the yellow? Oh wait, I’m in the yellow. So I need to change…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Chad Bickley — …where I’m going with. And we always say, man, start your day in the green – win the morning. Because if you come to work in the green, it’s hard it’s it’s it’s harder to move forward it’s hard to go from yellow, red to green than it is from green to red. Because [inaudible] back to it rather quickly. So we we just talk about all this stuff. That’s that’s, you know, identify your mood, man. You’re in the yellow man and speak that language to people. Man, you’re in the yellow.

Rich Birch — Right.

Chad Bickley — And and really hold people accountable to the culture because we’ve all signed up for this.

Rich Birch — Right.

Chad Bickley — So if we signed up for this, this isn’t personal.

Rich Birch — Right.
Chad Bickley — This is actually like we’re trying to help people find and follow Jesus seven days a week. So if you’re in the yellow, that’s not going to help people find and follow Jesus seven days a week. And and I’ll be honest, it it it really has helped me.

Chad Bickley — I’m I’m more of an introvert for sure. I love the behind the scenes stuff. And so I’m really challenged every day, man, win that morning. Make sure you’re walking into that environment. Let’s go. And we’ve created such a fun environment too, because part of that’s don’t take yourself too seriously, but take the mission very seriously.
Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah.
Chad Bickley — And so we have fun. We do fantasy football. We do, you know, we don’t take ourselves too seriously. But when it comes to people, you know, accepting Christ and starting that, that journey, that’s very serious to us.
Rich Birch — That’s a big deal. Yeah.
Chad Bickley — And that’s a very heavy, heavy mission that that we’ve all chosen to be a part of.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I I think this is fantastic. It’s, you know, I love your passion for it. I love the clarity. I love how you’re, you know, even in these tools you’ve created to try to make it super easy for your people to understand and to onboard new people. Obviously in a church like yours, you know, youre you’re onboarding new team members all the time. That’s an issue.

Rich Birch —You mentioned a couple of ways. I’m looping back on something you said earlier. You mentioned a couple of ways that you reinforce these levels – evaluations, team meetings. Is there, you know, maybe flesh that out a little bit more. What are some other ways, or maybe a surprising way, that you ah reinforce these levels with your people to keep them in front of people to keep defining, hey, this is how we work. This is how we work.
Chad Bickley — Yeah, I heard a story, um the Home Depot, there was a new guy that took over Home Depot and he and he completely changed the culture with with handwritten notes. And and he, and so for us, we have a we have a weekly meeting and we have a section every week that’s called cultural spotlights.
Chad Bickley — So within that cultural spotlight, we’ve created um the six levels and someone, and to embed this, someone, you know, hey I saw Johnny uh level one teammate and he identifies it. And we we really, and this is where it gets a little tricky because everybody wants to highlight the individual and we’re like, that’s great, but we’re highlighting the core behavior.
Rich Birch — The behavior.
Chad Bickley — Because Johnny, tomorrow, can not be a teammate. That’s in him. Today he was a teammate. But what that does is it it sends it sends a message to everybody it sends a message to everybody on the team of, that’s what a teammate is. Not Johnny, but what he did.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Chad Bickley — And what that has done is iron sharpens iron. It is taking these six levels to a whole different level in our minds.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.
Chad Bickley — That’s that’s been probably the biggest way. Now huddles are doing it in volunteers. You know, we’ve we’ve done a culture warrior award of the month. We’ve done those things at our all staff. And and so when you start it’s like I said culture is a language and you have to teach people to speak a language. It takes a while. And so…
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Yeah. It’s not overnight. It’s not one time. You know, you’re not just going to do this. I love the weekly meeting thing. That that’s incredible. Can you give us a flesh that a little bit more? What’s that look like? This is a behavior that we’ve seen time and again with prevailing churches that they are not leaving this kind of defining what is it that makes us us to like, uh, we’re going to do it once a year. It’s like, we’re repeating this time and again. And I love that you’re doing that on a weekly basis. So kind of pull pull that apart a little bit more. What’s that meeting look like? When is it, who you know, what’s other things happening at it, that sort of thing?
Chad Bickley — Yeah, so it’s a pastor/director meeting. There’s about 20 of us. And and we come in the meeting and we have a cultural section. We have a cultural section, we have an awareness section and we have a discussion section.
Rich Birch — Yep. Okay.
Chad Bickley — And so the cultural section is just, it’s basically, we we do win, stuck… or sorry, we do cultural spotlights. Does anybody have a spotlight? Then we say, does anybody have a story from this past Sunday?
Rich Birch — Right. Yep.
Chad Bickley — Which trains our pastors like, go find us a story, go talk to people.
Rich Birch — To be looking for it. Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Yep.
Chad Bickley — And, dude, some of the stories are just like, what?
Rich Birch — Yep.
Chad Bickley — Go ask them, how did you come to Skyline? And we want to know, we want that information. And then it’s we usually have one or two people give what we call our win/stuck priorities.
Chad Bickley — And they give their wins of what they had since their last one. They give their stucks. I’m stuck here, and this is what we’re doing, and this is my priority for the next you know few. So they give like a department update…

Rich Birch — Update. Yep.

Chad Bickley — …and we go into awareness. You know, What are you hearing? What are you seeing? um And then at the end if we have something, Pastor Jeremy has a section and then and then if there’s any other discussions that need to take place, we we take place in in that meeting. So that’s kind of how it’s structured.

Rich Birch — Love it. So good.

Chad Bickley — And you know, sometimes, man, this is when you know, you’re healthy when after 30 minutes you’re still on your cultural spotlights and win/stuck priority [inaudible] cultural spotlights and stories and you’re like, this is unbelievable. And it’s just rapid fire.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Chad Bickley — You’re just like, this is, we’re healthy right now. And when you’re not getting any, then you’re like, okay…

Rich Birch — We’ve got to spend some more time. Focus on it. Yeah.

Chad Bickley — …we need bit a of challenge, a little bit of training and and the importance, but our people have, you know, and you have to create the environment where it’s, you know, where it’s okay.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Chad Bickley — So that’s the part that has been pretty cool.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. When you look to the future, ah you think about this whole area, you know what’s what’s in development? What are you thinking up over the horizon? Maybe questions you’re asking about how you can continue to, you know, expand this, continue to um you know push deeply the kind of cultural stuff. What what are your what are the questions you’re asking on this front?
Chad Bickley — Yeah, I think the at the the more you grow, the more it’s like, okay, how do we keep it in front of everybody…
Rich Birch — Right.
Chad Bickley — …and making sure they’re training? Because you can you know you can so you can say that the six, levels. Okay. That’s knowledge. Okay.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Chad Bickley — But you have to be able to incorporate those into your daily actions. But honestly, you know, in our interview process, it’s very intense. They have to go through several things. And really, it’s like, do they fit our culture?
Chad Bickley — Not can they do the job.
Rich Birch — Right.
Chad Bickley — They have to have those traits already instilled in them. Or they’re gonna be miserable, right? And so I think it’s exciting and and fearful of just like, okay as we grow, we have to stay healthy. Like that’s that’s the key.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Chad Bickley — You know when I when I first took this job I went to You know, I honestly when I came in Skyline it was like, oh my goodness, where is everybody? Like, why is everybody, we…

Rich Birch — Right.

Chad Bickley — …this, this isn’t working. And, and then, you know, I went to a conference and, and it was like, to listen to churches, big churches and kind of hear behind the doors. I’m like, man, they’re not healthy. And so honestly for me, and my drive and desire is that we have a healthy staff.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Chad Bickley — And and if you get unhealthy, we’ll work with you. Come on, let’s go. More clarity. But at the end of the day, you know if you’re coming in and you’re you’re gossiping and you’re causing, it’s like, and you’re not you’re not being a part of the mission, like this is not the right place for you, you know? And and I think it’s it’s kind of like, you know, we got to put our hard hats on and and be construction, be a farmer, let’s go. We have to get after it. And so that’s the biggest, you know, I guess to answer your question.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Well, yeah, that’s super encouraging. And and this has been a great conversation, super insightful. And obviously with your 10/10/10 vision, you know, you’re in in a lot of ways on the front end of what you believe God’s calling your church to do. Like you still got a long ways to go on expanding and new locations and, you know, more staff and all of that. So I’m excited to see how this develops in in the coming years. Any kind of final words as we wrap up today’s ah conversation? I’ve really appreciated this. It’s been a great conversation today, Chad.
Chad Bickley — Yeah, I mean I would just again, the phrase that comes into my mind is is healthy things grow. They just grow and and you have to weed them, you have to water them. You have to put effort into healthy things. If you want a healthy body, you have to exercise, you have to eat right. So it’s work
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Chad Bickley — But it pays off.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Thanks so much, Chad. Appreciate you being here. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Chad Bickley — skylinechurch.org is our website. I mean, it has our staff, our emails are on there.
Rich Birch — Perfect.
Chad Bickley — So if you want to connect, happy to yep.
Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much Chad. Appreciate you being here today, sir.

**Big Dreams, Healthy Rhythms: Avoiding Burnout in Growing Churches with Danny Anderson** Feb 13, 2025

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with **Danny Anderson**, the Lead Pastor at **Emmanuel Church** in Indianapolis, Indiana.

Is your church growing quickly, but you’re feeling the pressure? Wondering how to balance church growth with spiritual health for yourself and your staff team? Danny shares his journey of leading a fast-growing church while maintaining soul care and healthy leadership practices.

**Give people time to grieve.** // Danny joined Emmanuel Church as a high school pastor in 1999. In 2006 he transitioned into the lead pastor role following the retirement of the founding pastor. Danny was eager to cast a fresh vision and implement changes in order to reach more people. However, he didn’t initially recognize that people needed time to grieve the departure of their previous pastor. This led to a challenging transition and attendance dropped significantly within the first 18 months.

**Honor the past while casting vision for the future.** // Honor the past when transitioning leadership. People need time to adopt a new vision and accept the coming changes. Clear, unwavering vision needs to come from the lead pastor, however, when formulating a new vision, look at who Jesus spent time with and why He came.

**The pressures of growth.** // As people at Emmanuel bought into the vision of reaching people far from God, they began inviting friends and the church regained momentum. Since then, they have continued to expand, opening a new campus nearly every other year. However, with growth can come pressure. It’s not uncommon for pastors to experience either burnout or moral failure amidst fast growth. But Danny emphasizes that this is not inevitable for leaders—provided they actively care for their souls.

**Take care of your own soul and faith.** // The most important job of a leader is to take care of their soul. Effective leadership begins with the senior leader doing the work to care for their soul and follow Jesus well. Danny wakes up every morning and incorporates daily routines such as scripture reading, prayer, confession, and journaling to maintain his spiritual health and stay grounded and aligned with Jesus.

**Keep your mind in the right spot.** // The mind controls how we think and feel, and our soul relies on how we feel. The way we feel will shape the way we act. In order to make godly choices and live a righteous life, we need to fill our minds with scripture and be thinking correctly. By making sure our minds are in a good spot, we make sure our souls are too.

**Be the example.** // When it comes to staff health, everything starts with the senior leader. A leader’s demeanor and attitude will shape the church culture. Danny challenges his staff to care for their souls, whether it’s in staff meetings or in practices the church implements. For example, at Emmanuel they prioritize the spiritual well-being of the team by instituting a strict Sabbath policy where no one is allowed to work on Fridays. This practice underscores the belief that the health of the soul is more important than church productivity. A pastor needs to follow the same challenges they give to their people, thereby setting an example for them.

**Balance the key issues in your life.** // Danny’s book *Church Growth Unleashed: How to Grow Your Church Without Losing Your Soul* was written to help church leaders grow a healthy, thriving congregation without sacrificing their churches, families, or health. Often failure at a church is not because of the size of the church but because a pastor didn’t care for their soul. The book talks about key issues in a church leader’s life that help provide balance, such as how their physical health helps them serve and lead, and the importance of having friends that a pastor can be vulnerable with.

Find Emmanuel Church at eclife.org and explore both the *Church Growth Unleashed* podcast and book. Plus, find Danny on Instagram @DannyAnderson23.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited for today’s conversation. Really looking forward to this because this every time I interact with this leader, it feels like a kindred spirit. You’re going to love this conversation. You want to lean in carefully because we’ve got lessons both for your church and for you as an individual.
Rich Birch — Today we’re talking with Pastor Danny Anderson. He is the lead pastor at a church that you should be following, Emmanuel Church, ah it which which was established in 1977. It’s a multisite church with, I think if I’m counting correctly, seven campuses in Indianapolis, an online campus, and a number of ah microsites. It’s repeatedly on one of the fastest growing church lists in the country. Danny’s been a lead pastor there since 2006. He also served as the high school pastor, which we all know the best people come up, from Student Ministry. Has got a podcast as well, so I know his audio is going to be good. Welcome to the show. So glad you’re here, Danny.
Danny Anderson — Thanks, Rich. Appreciate you having me. What a privilege.
Rich Birch — Yeah, this. Oh, come on. So our honor. Glad you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the picture? Kind of tell us a little bit about about you, about the church, that that sort of thing.
Danny Anderson — Yeah, so ah I graduated from Liberty University in ’99 and actually interviewed with Emmanuel Church coming out of college…

Rich Birch — Nice.

Danny Anderson — …because it was my wife’s home church.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice.

Danny Anderson — And they they were like, hey, who’s this guy? Maybe maybe he’ll be a good high school pastor.
Rich Birch — Nice.
Danny Anderson — And did the interview process, got the job. And yeah, did did youth ministry for five years, loved it. And then my found our founding pastor ah decided to ah pursue enter into retirement in 2006 and kind of tapped me on the shoulder. Church voted me in.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Danny Anderson — And the wild ride of senior leadership began in 2006.
Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Danny Anderson — And it went smoothly.

Rich Birch — Yeah, no problems at all. Easy, easy. Well, actually, why don’t you give us a bit of some of the milestones along the way? When you look back, here we are, 2025, you know, coming up on 20 years, that’s a long time, ah which is wonderful. Give us some of those milestones that kind of are, have been key and when you look back over these years.
Danny Anderson — Well, I’ll tell you what, the first year and a half was incredibly difficult, you know taking over for a founding pastor. Pastoral transitions are tough anyway, but when you when you transition after a founding pastor ah who’s beloved, um adored by the people, it was really tough. I had some people tell me, look, I don’t care if you were Andy Stanley, this would not have gone any better.
Rich Birch — Right, right. Yes, yeah.
Danny Anderson — But so it was it was tough. I like to say that I successfully led the church from 2000 to 900 in about a year and a half.

Rich Birch — Okay yes.

Danny Anderson — And so it was it was very difficult, very challenging. So a big milestone was in two thousand ah late 2007, 2008, people started to bring their friends. And I remember I remember it vividly. People started to get saved. I was casting vision. I was trying to stop the bleeding. And then people started to believe the message that, hey, we’re here to reach people who are far from God. Like the church exists to see people who are far from Christ you know come to to know Him and grow in a relationship with Him.
Danny Anderson — And those who chose to stay under my leadership began to invite their friends and people got saved, started to get baptized. And yeah moving into 2010, we were so packed that we had to start a Saturday night service. That was a big milestone for us.
Rich Birch — Well, that’s a huge deal. Yeah. Yeah.
Danny Anderson — You know, launching that, we’re like, man, we’re out of space. What do we do?
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — And then moving into 2013, we launched our first campus, and that ah was about a 500-person solution, you know?
Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah.
Danny Anderson — We sent out 500 people, and ah that church is is doing wonderful. They just celebrated 10 years um ah and into in 2023.
Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s amazing.
Danny Anderson — And since then, we’ve kind of launched one campus every other year or so, and and…

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great.

Danny Anderson — …and it’s it’s just been um you know an incredible journey.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. I love to kind of double click on something. You talked about casting vision. That’s a unique challenge coming in after the founding. I know the stats on the guy that comes in after the founding pastor, not great. You know, like I don’t want to discourage anybody that’s listening in, but it’s like lots of times those guys last about 18 months.

Danny Anderson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But you were able to cast a new vision, interestingly, at that same kind of timeframe, 18 months, two years in, you’ve got to clarify. What was going through your head in that moment around clarity of vision, you know, kind of because there’s ah a balance there of like casting a new vision, but then, but you also don’t want to trample on the past and all that. You want to build on where we get, what would, how, how did you cast a vision in that season and how did that impact the church?
Danny Anderson — Well, I I definitely was naive and some of that played to my advantage and some of that hurt me.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Right.
Danny Anderson — I could have done a much better job honoring the past. And if there’s anybody out there listening and thinking about transitioning or in a transition, it’s very important for the person coming in behind the pastor, especially the founding pastor, just to honor honor the past, honor where you’ve been. I kind of jumped past that um and I was so excited. I was eager. I was 26 years old and I wanted to talk about the future. I wanted to talk about how we are going to do things differently to reach people who are far from God. And so I started canceling programs. I changed the music. I did all these things that I had heard others did to reach the next generation.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Danny Anderson — And that that was fairly easy to talk about. We did a series about it. I talked about it. But what I didn’t understand because I was so young is that people were not ready to receive that vision yet.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — They were still um grieving the loss of their founding pastor, still not sure whether or not they should buy into my leadership.
Rich Birch — Yep/
Danny Anderson — I didn’t really understand the law of buy-in…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — …you know, ah by John Maxwell.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Danny Anderson — And I just got, I went right into vision.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Danny Anderson — And so we paid the price for that. It it really hurt us. But in the long run, those who did choose to stay bought into that vision. But you know the I guess the question you asked me was, how did I maybe formulate that vision?
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Danny Anderson — You know for for me for me, it was just the New Testament just reading like, who did Jesus spend time with? What was this heart? Why did he come? You know I was radically saved in high school as a 17-year-old kid. I was not a church kid. My life was totally revolutionized, did a 180. So when I put my faith in Christ, it was it was because I knew he forgave me. I knew he was real. I didn’t really care about church. I just loved Jesus, you know?
Rich Birch — Good.
Danny Anderson — And I just, I wanted, I want people to experience that.
Danny Anderson — And and so my vision was, hey, let’s let’s be a church that reaches people who really need hope. They really need meaning. They need purpose. They need forgiveness. They need grace, all these wonderful things that I had received. And that only made sense to me. Like, why why else would we do church?
Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah, yeah for sure. Well, but it’s interesting, right? Like I think a lot of times I know as a person that sat in that kind of executive pastor second chair, I know a part of what I’ve tried to do over the years is encourage the lead pastors I’ve served for to to continue to clarify the vision. And a lot of it like that, that’s a thing that a lead pastor can’t outsource. We can’t be like, we can’t pull 25 people in a room and go, So why do we think we should exist? Like no, no, like you’ve you got to feel it at in your bones. like It’s like, hey, this is I’m willing to drive the and the bus over the cliff over this issue. And that ultimately is what gathers people. And and yeah, that’s that’s good

Rich Birch — Okay, so pivoting in a slightly different direction. So you’re coming up you know two decades, almost two decades as in in this lead role. That’s amazing. Incredible. Congratulations on that.
Danny Anderson — Thank you.
Rich Birch — You know, we often see that, you know, churches of a certain size. One of the kind of common characteristics is you’ve got leaders that are in their second, third decade there that that’s normal. It is not typical that it like happens overnight. It takes time. But one of the downsides, the negative kind of tragic realities is many parents experience or parents, pastors experience either burnout or moral failure amidst the kind of growth that your church has seen.
Rich Birch — You know, can we explore that a little bit? Talk about kind of your own personal reflections on how do you navigate that? How do you kind of keep your soul connected to Jesus in the midst of that?
Danny Anderson — That’s a great question. You know, one ah one of the things that really broke my heart several years ago, and I think many pastors were brokenhearted over seeing some of their heroes and of the faith, the church leaders that they’ve followed for years, looked up to, gone to their conferences.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.
Danny Anderson — You know, we’ve all watched some of these guys kind of shipwreck their their church for, you know, ah moral reasons, power struggles. And, you know, I I’m watching this happen, as as everyone else is, and I’m like, man, is it inevitable that this is going to happen to me?
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Danny Anderson — You know, because I’m I’m I’m on the same path these guys are on.
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — I’m trying to grow the church. Things are happening. And we’re launching campuses. You knowis it inevitable that I’m going to have an affair or or or do something stupid with money or abuse power?
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — And and I got to thinking about that. And I was like, no, that’s not inevitable.
Rich Birch — Good.
Danny Anderson — And and the reason why it’s not inevitable for me or for any pastor out there is that if you do the proper work on your soul, which is the most important thing that we can do, you know, the Proverbs 4:23 says, guard your heart above all else because out of it flow the issues of life, right? Like everything we do, our leadership, our sermons, the way we lead our team, it all comes from our heart.
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — So the most important, I’m convinced, the most and important job of a leader is to take care of their soul.
Rich Birch — Right. Good.
Danny Anderson — Because if my soul is healthy…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Danny Anderson — …and it’s aligned with Jesus and it’s surrendered to his will, like then I can lead well. And I won’t shipwreck my faith, and I won’t fall into temptation.
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — I’m not talking about perfection. Nobody’s going to be perfect.

Rich Birch — No. Yeah, yeah.

Danny Anderson — I’m talking about patterns of sin that will destroy your church, destroy your minister, and disqualify you from leading.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. 100%.
Danny Anderson — And so I spend a ton of time, Rich, working on myself. I did it again this morning. I wake up every morning at 5.30. I have a whole routine I go through. And it’s it’s it involves the scriptures, surrender, prayer, confession, journaling, um reading other books. And and I do that, not because I’m a pastor, but because I want but because I want to take care of my soul. I want to have a healthy soul.
Rich Birch — Yes, that’s good.
Danny Anderson — And so I have practices and rhythms that I keep to make sure that I maintain that in the midst of the chaos of leading our church, which there’s never a dull moment, as you know, leading a church, it’s it’s crazy.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Danny Anderson — But so yeah, I’m I’m hyper focused on that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to talk a little bit more about that, kind of drilling, because one of the I appreciate the way you framed that. Because one of the realities of it is like all the people who that you’re thinking of that have shipwrecked their ministries, shipwrecked their lives, they all would have said that they would have said no, I’ve got practices. I’ve got you know and that’s the sad reality here right? And then there is this cynicism I think for me one of the most corrosive parts of this is there’s a cynicism against large churches. And to me that that’s like that’s like gets to you know effectiveness of the gospel kind of stuff then we’re like well we should just keep all our churches small and that’s the answer. But that isn’t the answer.
Rich Birch — We need to be able to lead large churches that are having huge impacts on our community and keep our soul healthy at the same time. So is there one of those practices that maybe it’s like, Hey, I’ve never heard people talk about this. Or like, it seems like a different thing or like this is particularly, has been particularly effective for me or helpful for me, or as I’ve shared with other pastors, they’ve resonated been like, Oh, that’s, that’s different. I I appreciate that. That that’s really helpful for me.
Danny Anderson — Yeah, you know, I think the most effective thing that I have practiced or put into my life in terms of a discipline that cares for the soul is, and this has been talked about, so it’s not it’s not fresh.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yep.
Danny Anderson — It’s just a matter of, are we doing it?
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. True. Yep.
Danny Anderson — You know, I hear I hear pastors say this all the time. You know, I I have practices, okay, but are you really doing it?
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — And so here’s here’s here’s how I would explain it. I would explain it um it’s it’s the practice of meditation. And and and I don’t I don’t mean the Eastern type of meditation way emptying yourself and emptying your mind.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Danny Anderson — I’m talking about filling your mind with Scripture…

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.

Danny Anderson — …to the point where, like in Psalm 1, it says that with that the man of God meditates on it day and night.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Danny Anderson — In Joshua 1:8, you know, we meditate upon your law day and night. Is that really true about us? Because here’s how, you know, Dallas Willard and and and many others have explained the way the soul is wired. And I don’t want to go too deep here, but we do have to kind of go deep a little bit. Like the mind controls, predominantly, for the most part, how we feel, like we think and then we feel. And then the will or the place of action at the center of our soul is dependent upon how we’re feeling and how we’re thinking.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.
Danny Anderson — So if I want to make proper choices, godly choices, live a righteous life, or treat my staff well, or have patience with my assistant, or whatever, then I have to be thinking correctly.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Danny Anderson — My mind has got to be in the right place, which is why the Apostle Paul says, you know, set your mind on things above, not on things on earth, right? That we’re transformed by the renewing of our mind. We can we’ve preached sermons like that, right? But do we live that way? Where’s our mind?
Rich Birch — Yep. Right.

Danny Anderson — Every single day?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Like not just not just at certain times when we’re preparing a sermon or or something, but like throughout the day, are we actually thinking Scripture?

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s good.

Danny Anderson — Because if we are, then that’s going to be shaping the way we feel…

Rich Birch — Yeah that’s good.

Danny Anderson — …and then the way we feel is going to shape the way we act. And so I teach that, I try to live that out. And that’s how that’s the primary practice of of tending for my soul.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — So if I want my soul to be in a good good spot, I got to make sure my mind is in a good spot.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I like I like even how you frame that there around I’ve got to be thinking scripture. And and that’s even a good benchmark for me that got me thinking, okay, so when I go to solve a problem, something that comes up today, is the first thing that comes to mind scripture or is the first thing that comes to mind some book I read, or some podcast I listen to? Is it, you know, and that’s I’m not saying that there’s not ah good things to come from podcasts, obviously, but you know but but what is the knee-jerk reaction of my mind? Is it, am I brought back to the teaching of Jesus ultimately? That’s good. I really like that.
Danny Anderson — So let me push in a little bit more on that one thought. You know Dallas Willard teaches this, and and if your listeners haven’t dove in to Dallas’ stuff, I would strongly encourage them to do so. “Renovation of the Heart”, “Divine Conspiracy”, “Spirit of the Disciplines”, “The Great Omission”, all fantastic stuff. But what he actually teaches about scripture, scripture memorization, and the power of it is that as we’re meditating on scripture through the day, we actually interpret life through the lens of the scripture.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Danny Anderson — So so it’s like the scriptures are like the lens that we’re looking through as we’re leading our team or we’re talking with our spouse.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Danny Anderson — And so we’re interpreting the events of life through scripture. And if we’re doing that, then we’re actually thinking the thoughts of Jesus. And you know as Dallas has said in his books that spiritual maturity is being able to act the way Jesus would act if he were in your place, right? So if I want to do that, I have to think the way Jesus thinks…

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Danny Anderson — …if I want to live the way he lived, and that ah one idea has changed my leadership and has changed my life.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. So good. Well, then extending that out kind of beyond you to your team, I’ve had a little bit of interaction with some of the Emmanuel team. And, you know, there, if I can just kind of say the thing that some people are thinking is oftentimes, you know, the teams in large churches, it’s like, man, they’re burnt out, they’re struggling. And it’s like, that’s fine for the lead person. They got it all sorted out, but like the team is in a bad spot.

Rich Birch — But that hasn’t been my impression of the Emmanuel team. It’s like, well, these people are healthy and they seem to be leaning in. And so how have you been able to navigate the challenges of both scaling? Because you seem like an ambitious church. It seems like, hey, we want to take some ground, but at the same time, balance out health of your staff.
Danny Anderson — Yeah, so I have to live it out that everything starts with the senior leader, right? So I talk about this stuff at staff meeting. I challenge my team to do this stuff. We incorporate the Sabbath very aggressively here at the church.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Danny Anderson — So nobody’s allowed to work on Friday. And that is a very that’s huge.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Like, hey, this that communicates that your soul is more important to me and to God than getting results at this church.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Danny Anderson — So you will you are not allowed to work on Friday.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Like it is a rule unless somebody has died or something, you know.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Danny Anderson — So, you know people know I’m serious about it. And they know that I care more about their soul than I do about the work that’s actually happening. Now, that does not mean we don’t care about the work that’s happening around here.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Danny Anderson — We want to launch one campus a year for the next 12 years.

Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — We’re very ambitious. um So I think it’s ah it’s this balance. Like what are you talking about in staff meeting? And what does your staff see from you? Like if my staff sees me walking around the office, and I’m barking out orders, and I’ ‘m they could see my face is frustrated, or I’m upset, you know what is that saying? Like there’s some pastors that lead their church that way.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.
Danny Anderson — They lead their church through anger…
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Danny Anderson — … and their face. And everyone’s like, oh, well, look at his face. He’s upset. What’s pastor do… Like, that is not the way Jesus led, you know?

Rich Birch — No, it’s true.

Danny Anderson — So the the so everyone’s really watching my tone of voice. They’re watching my facial expression. Is he upset? You know, is he calm? Is he poised? And so that stuff all goes back to my personal disciplines of meditation and quiet time and prayer and weekly Sabbath. And and so it starts with me and you have to push that down, those values down into your staff.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And give them the space to practice those things that you’re telling them to practice.
Rich Birch — Right. And there there’s a key there around, you know, when I’ve been around healthy leaders, have worked with healthy leaders, there’s something about you talking about it that then creates, and living it out, and like, like you’re saying, is even simple things as crazy as it sounds like, Hey, we’re not going to work on one day a week. Friday’s the sabbath day. Uh, like even something as simple as that, talking about it enough so that your team will hold you accountable. Like they’ll come back. If you talk about that enough, they’re going to be like, well, wait a second, Danny. Like you said, we’re not supposed to work Fridays, but why is it that you keep sending me the slides Friday morning at 9:30 in the morning to be done for the weekend?
Danny Anderson — Yeah.
Rich Birch — I can’t do what you want me to do. And so, yeah, that’s good. I love that. So, so good.

Rich Birch — Well, I’d love to pivot it in another direction. So you’ve got a book that came out last year and you’ve got a podcast by the same same name, *Church Growth Unleash*ed: *How to Grow Your Church Without Losing Your Soul.* We’ve obviously been talking about some of these issues today, but this is a huge task, putting together a book. You know, tell us, kind of why why did you drive towards that? What what are you hoping to get out of this? Who are you thinking about as you pulled this book together?
Danny Anderson — Yeah, I’m thinking about the the the pastor who has the passion to see lost people enter the kingdom, but today you’re being told that, you know, big churches are bad…

Rich Birch — Yeah. 100%.

Danny Anderson — …and you shouldn’t want to grow your church. And I’m like, man, I almost fell prey to that, Rich.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Anderson — Like, I really I actually picked up one of those books that had that message in it.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Danny Anderson — And I’m like, man, maybe we should stay small.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — Maybe we should just be be content with what we have and the people that we have. And it’s like, I felt guilty about about my ambition.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes.
Danny Anderson — And then I’m like looking at the apostle Paul and the gospel and he’s like, man, let’s go reach the world.
Rich Birch — Let’s go. Yeah, yeah.
Danny Anderson — And he’s ambitious to to preach and plant churches where no one’s heard the gospel.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Danny Anderson — And and I’m like, man, this God’s heart, is to reach lost people – lots of them, millions of them.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Danny Anderson — And so I wrote this book to help pastors strike the balance of, okay, I know I want to reach people. I want to fan that flame, right? Yes, that is God’s heart. For God so loved the world, He gave His one and only Son, right? But also on the other hand, if you don’t do that in a wise way, you’re going to end up like some of these other guys.
Rich Birch — It’s true. Yep.
Danny Anderson — And you’re not just going to lose your church, you’re going to lose your family. You could lose your health, your your physical health
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Yep
Danny Anderson — …because you overdo it and you over you become a ah workaholic. And and so there is a balance.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Danny Anderson — And I feel like I haven’t always gotten that right, but man, I sure have tried. Because I want to make it to the end, Rich. I’m 47. I want to go all the way to the end…

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good.

Danny Anderson — …hand this church off to somebody else in a healthy way and still have a family and a healthy heart. And um and and set this church up to reach the even the next generation.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — So I’m passionate about you know helping pastors to find that path.
Rich Birch — Well, I know, I you know, I love that you said church growth right in the title, because as a fellow author with a book with the title, with church growth in the title, that’s like it that’s like a dangerous decision in some circles.
Danny Anderson — Right.
Rich Birch — They’re like, well, church growth, isn’t that like guys in the 80s that got like tapes and they’re you know they’re like old, dodgy you know kind of a little bit like you know slick salesman kind of thing. So I love that you did that. I love I love that you did that. I love your heart both to balance the issues around, hey we want to reach people. I agree with you. I think there is this dangerous um, it sounds good. It sounds like even like noble to be like, well, we should keep small. We should, you know, we should play small and like, I’m only going to reach the people on my street. And we’re we’re going to stay under a couple hundred people. And that’s like what God has called us to. Why do you think that is such a pervasive idea? Why why has that become such a pervasive idea in the church?
Danny Anderson — Well, I think I think part of it is, it’s a great question, but i think I think a big part of it is that when people see these mega church pastors screw up…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Danny Anderson — …whether it is because some sexual sin…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …or they have abused power or something…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …they immediately make the connection that, see, the problem is not his, the problem is not his soul. The problem is that the church is too big.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Danny Anderson — And so churches are not designed to be that big. And so that, and I just don’t believe that.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Danny Anderson — I do not believe the problem is the size of the church.

Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — The problem is the pastor did not take care of his soul.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s good.
Danny Anderson — Let me think about Billy Graham, Rich. I know Billy Graham wasn’t a pastor…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …but that guy took care of his soul.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Danny Anderson — When you read his stuff, when you read his books, his his he was so diligent to watch over his heart with meditation and his scripture, the scripture. He never missed a time with God. He never missed time with God. So my dedication is I never miss my time with God.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — I don’t say I don’t say that to brag because that would be ridiculous. There’s nothing to brag about.
Rich Birch — Right. No, yep.
Danny Anderson — I do that because I need it.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Danny Anderson — To keep my heart humble and aligned with God’s will.
Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. 100%.
Danny Anderson — So, you know, I don’t believe the problem is the size of the church. I believe Jesus wants the whole world to be saved.
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — So, and I’m part of that solution. So are you.
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — So that means we gotta we got to grow our churches.
Rich Birch — Yeah, and there’s way more people in Indianapolis in your backyard who don’t attend church that do.

Danny Anderson — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — And we’ve got to do what we can to get out in front of them and reach those people. I’ve never said this publicly, but I’m going to say it here because I’d love to get your reaction to it.

Rich Birch — Years ago, 10 years ago, I was talking to a lead pastor of a fairly large church, a name brand church, and they said, you know, we we’re talking about this exact issue, growing a church and why do so many people fail and all of that. And this individual said you know I think the problem is or one of the problems is a church—and this is gonna sound crazy—if you’re leading a church of a couple hundred people what I’m about to say, you’re gonna say, that is nuts, but it resonates with me. I actually was like um I think there’s some truth to this. They said, you know, one of the problems is you get to a church of four or five thousand people and as the lead pastor, there’s not enough challenge. And I was like what?

Rich Birch — And I leaned in and I said what are you talking about? And they’re like well At the end of the day, like i if I’m doing my job right, and I’ve told my people to do to do the work, and I’ve built amazing teams, and I’ve got a lot of people around me, and I and they’re they’re making it happen, my core job, sure, is to preach. I’m gonna get up every week, I’m gonna do you know maybe 30 times, I’m gonna preach, and sure, we’re gonna cast vision. But if i’m not if I don’t watch, I can create, ah I can build an empire, essentially, is what this person was saying, where I’m actually not being [inaudible]. Where I can kind of build this thing around me. And I was like, oh that’s an interesting idea. Because that there’s but I think there’s something there. It’s like these people you can you if you don’t have the right rhythms in your life stuff starts to get into your schedule you start doing stuff that you shouldn’t be doing you start thinking about things you shouldn’t be thinking about. You get distracted from the you know, because the thing is running because the thing is systemized. What do you think about that? React – nothing, you know, crazy idea. What do you think?
Danny Anderson — Yeah. You know, that’s I have not heard that. That is a very interesting. I’m processing that as you say that like, huh?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — Our church is like we reach about 8,000 people on a weekend now and I’m thinking holy cow!
Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re not sitting around looking for stuff to do.
Danny Anderson — No. I have I’m like, wow, I have to say no to stuff…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Danny Anderson — …because I’m meeting with you know donors…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Danny Anderson — …and I’m I’m meeting with my team and on my schedule. My assistant keeps telling me, um hey, I think we’ve we’ve committed to too much.
Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Danny Anderson — So I that does not resonate with me. I guess if my, if my goal was to, to kind of build something so that I could maybe have some free time in golf, I could see that being a problem, but I don’t golf, and I like to be busy.
Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yeah, no, I get that. Yeah, yeah. I thought it was an interesting idea. I thought the part that resonated with me was I think as the church grows, as we, you know, when you’re a church of a thousand, a church of two thousand, five thousand, ten thousand, each of those phases demands something different
Danny Anderson — Yes.
Rich Birch — And your leadership has to change. And these kinds of things ah managing our own soul care, although there are some foundational things, like you say, stay committed, stay in the word, what you’re doing at 5.30 in the morning, you have to keep thinking about these at at every level. What does it look like? How do I how do I massage and change? I’m sure you’ve seen over time that your process has changed, what you’ve done, your rhythms have changed because, you know, just things look different.

Danny Anderson — Absolutely.
Rich Birch — So that’s interesting.
Danny Anderson — And my kids have gotten older too, so that really helps.
Rich Birch — Right. That does open up time for sure. Talk to me about on the book, the *Church Growth Unleashed*, we’re going to put a link in the show notes where people can pick up this. This actually struck me as the kind of thing that a team could read together. It was like, hey, this could be a good framing for us. I talked about earlier this idea of like, you need to talk about these things so that your team kind of like mirrors back. To me, this was like one of these like, hey, let’s let’s let’s have Danny talk to us about these things through this book. And then that will kind of create a conversation for us where we can get outside of it and look at it and say, what do we think about that? How are we doing?
Rich Birch — Can you picture that? What but what could this look like if I if I went through this with my team?
Danny Anderson — Yeah, I think it’s ah it would be a great discussion starter. I don’t think pastors talk about this stuff. Like I have a whole chapter in there on friendship. I don’t think pastors talk about that. They don’t talk about their friends…

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — …because it’s really hard for a pastor to have friends. It’s really hard for staff members to have friends.
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — Like how do you have friends? Like all the people in your life go to your church. Like how how does that look?
Rich Birch — Right. Yep.
Danny Anderson — How do you strike that balance? I have a whole chapter in there on your physical health and how your physical health affects your your your ability to to serve and lead and do your job. like Pastors don’t talk about that stuff. Listen, most pastors are out of shape and overweight.

Rich Birch — It’s true.
Danny Anderson — So why would you why would you talk about being in healthy when you’re not healthy?
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Danny Anderson — So this is a book that really puts its finger on like some of the key issues ah that affect ah leadership and having a healthy balance between being really good at your job, but also ah being super healthy in your… Like I have a whole chapter on family where…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Danny Anderson — …how do you balance the this the the tensions of, like I know some churches and staffs, they’re so out of balance.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Danny Anderson — Oh my gosh, I was i heard about a church the other day that did six services on Christmas Eve.
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — Six.

Rich Birch — Right.

Danny Anderson — And look, i’m all I’m all about reaching lost people. I think it’s awesome.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.
Danny Anderson — But six services on Christmas Eve?
Rich Birch — Right.
Danny Anderson — Like and and they’re like rejoicing and praising God. And hey, I’m sure a lot of people got saved. I’m sure it was awesome. But I’m thinking about guess who I’m thinking about, Rich?
Rich Birch — Yeah, the families. Yeah, for sure.
Danny Anderson — Their staff, their staff, they you know, they just had services on Saturday, on Sunday, and then you turn around and do six Christmas Eve service. Anyway, I’m not dogging the church. I mean, I love reaching people.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.
Danny Anderson — But but man, if they don’t get that balance worked out, their staff will get burned out.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Danny Anderson — And then they’ll resent the work, you know? And so, you know, it’s really it’s really a book about, you know, helping people talk about the the important things that need to be discussed and work through to have a healthy balance of of ministry and life.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, like I say, friends, we’ve got a link to the show notes in link in the show notes. You can also pick it up in Amazon and I’m sure where other where books are sold, that sort of thing. We want to point people to that. I don’t want to miss an opportunity to talk about the podcast as well. I had an honor of being on an episode.

Danny Anderson — Yes, you did. Thank you for that.

Rich Birch — But tell us a little bit about, now, tell us a little bit about the podcast. I will put a link to that as well. We want people to check that out. And I think it would be a great kind of companion to what we’re doing here on unSeminary for sure.
Danny Anderson — Yeah. So, I mean, the Church Growth Unleashed is a podcast to help pastors, church leaders, and ministry leaders. I mean, I had the host of the unSeminary podcast on there last month.
Rich Birch — Oh, sure.
Danny Anderson — So that’s the quality.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Danny Anderson — No, no, no. Listen, that’s the quality of people I try to have on there. And we just, hey, we just talk about this stuff. We talk about everything that that pastors go through, ministry leaders go through in ah in an authentic way. Like I’m an open book. Like I talk about everything. Because I want pastors to to have a place where they could be like, man, this guy gets me.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Danny Anderson — Or I was wondering about that, or no one’s ever talked about that before, or I needed somebody to say that. Because that’s what I needed as a young pastor. Like, I need help. And so that’s basic it’s basically, it’s basically the same heart as your podcast, just to help pastors, help ministry leaders to be effective as possible.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Good, I’d love, like I say, we’ll put we’ll put links to the show notes down there and do the podcasts and the books and all that stuff. Danny, this has been super encouraging. conversation today. I love what you’re doing. I love what Emmanuel’s up to. I love the balance that you, you know, have that you’re striking. You know, Emmanuel is, I love a church that’s aggressive for the gospel. That’s like, hey, we want to do stuff to reach people. And you can see that in the way you guys act, which is great. But then at the same time, you’re raising all these values and us, you know, frankly, some of these deeper questions that it can be easy to just not think about. And so I i just want to honor you for doing that. I think it’s incredible. So, so great to connect today.
Danny Anderson — Well, thank you, Rich. You’re doing a great job. Love everything you do. Love your books. They’ve had a huge impact on my life. Keep writing them. Keep keep pumping into us.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Nice.
Danny Anderson — I know your audience is it gets tremendous value from this podcast and so do I, so thanks for what you do.
Rich Birch — Where do we want to send people online to connect with you or to connect with the church just as we wrap up today?
Danny Anderson — Yeah, so on Instagram, it’s @dannyanderson23. And that’s my Instagram handle. And then the the church website is eclife.org, eclife.org.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Danny Anderson — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Thanks so much, Danny. Appreciate you being here today.
Danny Anderson — Hey, thanks, Rich. God bless.

**Great Leaders Over Great Content: Secret Sauce to Thriving Groups with Adam Ader** Feb 06, 2025

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with **Adam Ader**, the Groups Director at **Parkview Christian Church** in Illinois.

Is your church looking to improve how you connect people into life-changing groups? Wondering how to lead a growing group ministry that truly impacts people’s lives? Tune in as Adam shares valuable insights on building a thriving group ministry that focuses on leadership development, group engagement, and real-life transformation.

**Raise up great leaders.** // Parkview’s groups strategy uses term-based, free-market small groups to foster community and spiritual growth. Groups run in three 10-week terms per year, allowing participants to engage in short-term commitments while maintaining flexibility. Parkview believes that, at the end of the day, a great leader will outweigh perfect content and they can turn mediocre content into something more engaging. Parkview works hard to raise up great leaders, helping them identify who is the segment of people they are trying to reach with their group.

**Types of groups offered.** // Parkview also leverages leaders’ passions to create groups that resonate with people. There are five categories that the groups at Parkview fall into. The first is Rooted, a foundational group for new believers which starts them on their journey. Then there are shared interest groups, general Bible-based small groups, support groups for people going through difficult circumstances, and Alpha groups for skeptics and seekers.

**The ten-week model.** // Ten weeks can seem like a short timeframe to really grow and connect with others, however small groups can fizzle out if they stay together too long. Having an open-ended strategy can set a lot of the groups to end in failure. The goal of these ten-week groups is not to take participants from point A to Z but to help them take a meaningful step forward in their faith. By giving groups a well-defined end date, you provide them with the opportunity to end well and either recommit going forward, or explore new groups.

**Great leaders outweigh content.** // We can become so focused on finding the perfect content that we miss out on the things that are truly important in small groups. We need to be disciples and help others grow, so focus on identifying and empowering leaders who can guide others effectively.

**Identify what you’re looking for.** // Have clarity about what you want in a leader. Parkview encourages potential leaders to see their role as facilitating community rather than delivering lectures.

**Recruiting new small group leaders.** // The best recruiters of new leaders are existing leaders. Encourage group leaders to be thinking, from the beginning, about who might be someone that can step up and do what they are doing. Emphasize relational skills and a love for Jesus over theological expertise.

**Offer training and support.** // Parkview has a 90-minute initial training for all potential group leaders that covers the church’s mission, vision, values, and group systems. Once a person has committed to becoming a leader, they undergo ten weeks of training while they lead their group. These trainings include a mix of bite-sized video content and in-depth discussions. This modular approach allows leaders to engage with essential topics such as building community, managing conflict, and fostering spiritual growth. In addition, new leaders are paired with a coach—an experienced volunteer leader who provides guidance and encouragement throughout the initial stages of group leadership.

Visit Parkview Christian Church at parkviewchurch.com and download the *Parkview Groups Leader Guide* here.

EXTRA CREDIT // **Get the Ready-to-Edit “When to Refer” Decision Guide for Small Group Leaders**

Are your small group leaders equipped to handle sensitive situations effectively? This **exclusive resource** from **unSeminary Extra Credit** is a ready-to-edit document to make it easy for you to provide your small group leaders with a training resource on when they should refer people in their group to someone else for assistance. Complete with a customizable decision tree and practical prompts, this tool empowers leaders to confidently care for their groups.

Join **unSeminary Extra Credit** today to access this valuable resource and more! Download this resource now.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church***

Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it!

**Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church!**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Well, hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Man, I am super excited for today’s conversation. This is one of those conversations that’s got in the middle of it a common tension that it’s a misnomer that um that lots of people have that we’re going to bust today. We’ve got some myths we’re going to bust. Plus, it’s going to be super helpful for you. Super excited to have ah Adam Ader with us. He is the groups director at Parkview Christian Church. It’s a multi-site church in ah in Illinois and church online. They’re repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Super excited to have you on the show today, Adam. Welcome. So glad you’re here.
Adam Ader — Hey, thanks, Rich. Appreciate it.
Rich Birch — This is going to be wonderful. Thanks for your time. Really appreciate that. Give us a sense of Parkview. Kind of tell us the story. If, you know, if people were to arrive this weekend, kind of give us a sense of that and then tell us a little bit about your role.
Adam Ader — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I had the good fortune to land at Parkview as my first job out of college. Landed as a student ministry intern in 2005, actually.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Adam Ader — Had a little bit more hair growing up top at the time then I do now. But I got lucky. I didn’t know a thing about the church and landed there to find out that they were one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And I was like, Oh, what what have I gotten myself into?

Adam Ader — But Parkview has been through like an incredible journey, really over the last 20 plus years of of just explosive growth. And we’re we’re in the south suburbs of Chicago. Our original location is in Orland Park. We’ve we’ve grown to the point where we have three locations, and they’re all kind of within a 15-minute drive with each other in a little sort of Bermuda triangle of Parkview campuses. And, you know, our our lead…

Rich Birch — But in in that Bermuda triangle, good things happen, not bad things happen.
Adam Ader — Yeah, we don’t see too many planes almost, thankfully.

Rich Birch — That’s great.
Adam Ader — But yeah, so the church has just been growing incredibly fast. We’ve seen God breathe incredible life just in people being kind of drawn into the church. We’re in a heavily Catholic and ex-Catholic area. And you know and that brings all kinds of exciting and interesting challenges with it. But um but God has just used what we’re doing and blessed it in incredible ways.

Adam Ader — And you know there have been times where we’ve been white knuckling in it and just trying to hang on for dear life as more and more people showed up. And we’ve tried a lot of different things and and God has seen scene fit to to bless some of them in some really powerful ways. So it’s been an exciting place to kind of cut my teeth doing ministry. I’ll hit my 20-year mark in June of this year, actually.
Rich Birch — Congratulations.
Adam Ader — Thank you much. Thank you much. I’m waiting on that gold watch. I don’t think I’m going to get it.
Rich Birch — Nice.
Adam Ader — But yeah, I met my wife my third day at Parkview. And I had my kids here, and I couldn’t imagine a better place to get to do ministry and just feel incredibly blessed every time every day, I get to do this.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s so great. So fun to hear. You know, we often talk with leaders in fast growing churches, and that’s definitely kind of a substrate of, you know, kind of under all the different people that we talk to. And one of the things I want to kind of pick apart today and understand from your seats, your seat as the what’s multiple seats is you do lots of different things in this area – that’s for sure in groups – is how are you getting people connected to groups at Parkview?

Rich Birch — So maybe let’s start with kind of an overview, kind of talk us through, let’s say you’re talking to an executive pastor or maybe another groups pastor, you’re at a conference and they’re like, tell me about groups at Parkview. What’s what’s all your short hands, open, closed, seasonal, you know, you know, how long do they stay together? All that kind of stuff. Give us a framework for what they are. And then we’ll dig in a little deeper.
Adam Ader — Yeah, that’s that’s great. I’ll I’ll talk you through kind of our our current strategy.
Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Ader — And then there’s like some history that’s going to have to go go into this a little bit.
Rich Birch — Sure.
Adam Ader — [inaudible] But where we’re currently at, we we focus largely on term-based free market small groups.

Rich Birch — Okay.
Adam Ader — Um, so we you’ll hear more about this down the road, but we we have leaned heavily into Rooted in the past. And we have a handful of sort of core content pieces that we will offer groups for each of these terms. Three times a year, we’ll offer 10-week groups terms. um And people can kind of opt into the group that seems best to them through a group finder tool that’s kind of housed on our website. Kind of a common thing, in a lot of churches do that. We’re not reinventing the wheel by any means in any of those areas.
Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — But but really, we lean hard into leveraging like the passions of our leaders. We think that at the end of the day, a great leader is going to outweigh content.
Adam Ader — And really what it comes down to, you know, our belief is a great leader can make average mediocre or even substandard content work really well, but a poor leader can take just to about any content off the tracks.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good.
Adam Ader — So we we lean hard into raising up good leaders and helping them identify who are they trying to reach with their group? What kind of people along the road of faith do they want to invite in the community and help them just take at least one step forward?
Rich Birch — Wow. Okay.
Adam Ader — So, um you know, we do we do have long-term groups that run and, you know, they kind of do their thing and we love them, but most of them are closed groups. We’re leaning really hard into these term-based semesters, 10 weeks usually. And again, that’s kind of a rhythm that we picked up from Rooted along the way, that 10-week piece. Seems like a sweet spot…

Rich Birch — Yep.
Adam Ader — …for us to help people get in the good community. So give them an off ramp before it gets weird. You know what I mean?
Rich Birch — Okay. That’s good. Well, tell us about, give us a sense of when you say free market, you talk about, it and I definitely want to drill in on that. I think it’s a huge insight, great leaders, outweigh content. We’re going to definitely come back to that, but give us a sense of what some of those kind of free market groups. What we, some of the passions, if, you know, if I was attending Parkview will be some of the things I would see on that tool to pick for the kinds of groups.
Adam Ader — Yeah, great question. We kind of dropped them into a five sort of buckets, but there’s some flexibility with them. The first one would be that Rooted. We’d offer Rooted groups, and we see those as being kind of like a foundation point. People who are, you know, early in their journey can step in, really starting to gain a foundational understanding of who we are, what we believe, how we practice faith.
Adam Ader — We offer shared interest groups. This one is kind of our newest deal. And this is, if we have a leader that has a passion that’s not even a Bible study based content, but they want to get people in the community around that hobby, we allow them to launch a group through our finder with some tools and support from us. And, you know, we see that happen. And we’ve seen some really great fruit from it, especially around a phenomenon that I don’t even understand yet, but it’s pickleball, man.
Rich Birch — I was going to ask, are there pickleball groups?
Adam Ader — Yes, there are.
Rich Birch — Love it. So good.
Adam Ader — The first pickleball group we launched, man, we had to close that 40 registrations.
Rich Birch — Oh, sure. That’s great.
Adam Ader — Yeah, just people love the pickleball. They love it.
Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s fun. That’s fun.
Adam Ader — Yeah, so so we had those available and and we’ve seen some great stuff there and we set we try to set the understanding that you know this is about community. But we want to help every person even in those groups take some step towards Jesus, right? And that’s where [inaudible]. We offer what we would just call a general small group type, which is for leaders that are choosing their own content, but it’s still a discussion-based, Bible study-based group type.

Adam Ader — Support groups are an important leg for us as well. Groups that are just available for people who are going through difficult circumstances or common times in life. And then we also have Alpha groups available. And alpha is, ah you know, Nicky Gumbel and England’s content. And this is stuff that is, ah exists for skeptics, people with big questions about faith. It’s a great content to invite people who maybe aren’t all the way on the bus, maybe have one foot on, one foot off. And we’ve done some some creative things in the past with launching Alpha and bars and restaurants and things like that.
Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — And we have those groups now available as well through our finder tool.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.
Adam Ader — So those are kind of the broad buckets. Yeah.
Rich Birch — That’s really cool. I love that. So, so we’ve got Rooted, shared interests, small, small, typical kind of small, not typical, but small group kind of content, support groups, and then Alpha – love those five.
Rich Birch — So talk to me about 10 weeks. I’m going to pretend to be the devil’s advocate. Don’t know that I should say that on a church podcast, but there I just did. 10 weeks. Like I, you, I, you, I understand the like, okay, where it can opt out before it gets weird. But what about on the other end, is 10 weeks long enough to actually accomplish the kind of, you know, community goals, faith goals. Talk talk us through that.
Adam Ader — Yeah, that’s great. And I And I do think that it’s easy to look at this and say, how can we really how can we really get into it and grow together in such a short timeframe? I was one of those people who was skeptical of that model for a while, if I’m being totally honest.
Rich Birch — Sure. Yep.
Adam Ader — I’m like ah But you know what we’ve seen is that under the right circumstances, people open up really quickly.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s true.
Adam Ader — And this is something we learned [inaudible] immediately. And I think coming out of out of COVID, out of lockdown, out of having to learn to use tools like Zoom and and Teams meetings to do school and all these things, um man, I don’t think people take as long to break walls down because there’s just a sense of maybe an unspoken desperation for a real community and real relationships out there. And we don’t think that 10 weeks is the thing that’s going to take person from A to Z…

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Ader — …but we do believe that 10 weeks is enough time for a person to take one solid step forward in their faith.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.
Adam Ader — And so we feel like if we get people through 10 weeks and we can point to that and say, here’s the way that God has shaped or changed you in this time period. Oh man, that’s a win worth celebrating. And there’s something that happens, I think, when when small groups stick together too long, right? And I’m sure we’ve all seen it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true. Yep.
Adam Ader — You know, where where you end up in this awkward sort of like a double dutch routine where everybody feels like they kind of want out and they’re no longer putting the effort into it but nobody wants to be the one to say that the marriage is over, sort of. You know?

Rich Birch — Sure. Sure.

Adam Ader — And and what we see, you we were seeing a lot of these groups that would they would fizzle after a certain amount of time. And then they wouldn’t be able to make eye contact with each other in church. Right?
Rich Birch — Right. Right. Okay.
Adam Ader — And it becomes weird.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Adam Ader — And suddenly they don’t know if they’re welcome to try a new group. They don’t know if it’s you know acceptable for them to try something different or if they’ve failed somehow. Right?
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Adam Ader — So I feel like by having an open-ended long-term strategy, you’re setting a lot of your groups up to end in failure. And I believe that how you end things is almost as important as how you start them.

Rich Birch — right
Adam Ader — And while by giving groups a solid end date, you give them the chance to end well…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Ader — …and also to recommit going forward. We hit the end of the 10 weeks and we’re like, man, this group, we’re we’re going places together. We love each other. like Let’s recommit to each other for the next period of time.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Ader — And I think there’s power in that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I can, I’m a huge fan of Alpha. I, at my church, outside of my job, I volunteer as an Alpha host. And so I get, I’ve often said like, it’s amazing in 10 weeks. It’s i actually kind of like the beginning of it because it’s like, these are all people I don’t know. And I’m like, I know by the end of these 10 weeks, we’re not only going to see some great progress happen in people’s lives, but we’re also going to see, you know, they’re going to form some friendships, which is incredible. So love that.
Rich Birch — Well, let’s loop back. Great leaders outweigh content. That’s a huge saying. I think that’s true. Huge learning. So talk to us about that kind of philosophically. And I’d love to get in how do you find leaders, you know, doing these term based? I feel like, man, aren’t you on a treadmill all the time trying to get into leaders training them? Let’s talk through all that.
Adam Ader — Yeah, that’s, that’s great. You know, I, I like like every guy who goes to Bible college, I ended up playing some guitar, right? And, you know, and, ah you know, I went through a period like much to my wife’s horror, where I spent way too much time and money trying to find like the the perfect guitar and the perfect, you know, amp and pedal and all these things. And and a quote from a, from a jazz musician named Philemonius Monk stood out to me at the time he said, um you know he said, he said, gear is important. But he said you got to figure that stuff out early and fast so that you can focus on things that are more important.

Adam Ader — And for me, I think that that holds true with content, especially in group settings…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Ader — …where we can sort of get so focused on finding the perfect content that is going to do you know everything that we want it to do. And that’s going to create these you know these saintly, fully-disciple, fully-on-mission people.

Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — And I think we can get so bogged down in the weeds that we miss out on the stuff that is that is truly important. Because I think that, man, people are the thing that make the engine go, right?
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Adam Ader — And and if we’re if we’re helping people become people who can disciple, who can help others grow, right?
Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — that’s kind of the that’s the money spot. That’s where wherere where we need to be pouring gas on the fire if we want to really make a difference. And I’ve seen it play out time and time again. You know we’ve had you know we we had a long period of being heavily invested in Rooted. And in fact, for years, it was almost our only group offering outside of the corporate…
Rich Birch — Right. Okay. Just kind of pushing everybody through Rooted. Yeah.
Adam Ader — Yeah, everybody all in, and it was that it was a beautiful season of like top-down involvement from our from my church and our leadership that ah that helped a lot of people grow. And I was one of those, again, early naysayers who was like, you you mean to tell me we’re just gonna keep shuffling out the same content over and over again, right? How’s that gonna work? And then you start to see it in action and you see it snowball and gain momentum…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Ader — …and you see people who participate multiple times, and yet come out of it looking a little different each time.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Adam Ader — And then you see the leader step up and come out of it looking a little bit bit better and a little bit stronger, and the fruit is a little bit more visible each time. So that was enough to kind of break me of my my obsession and focus on content, and instead say, you know what, if we can find something that aligns with where we want to go, where we want to see people go, who we want them to become, right? We can…that’s that’s enough, right? Because if we put good leaders that we trust on guiding people through this content, we can feel very confident that good things are going to happen.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Let me challenge a little bit though. Where do you find all these great leaders? Like that that that sounds amazing. I think our, maybe it’s just me, but I’ve leaned on the crutch of content in the past because I literally have thought I probably haven’t articulated like this until you said it but I’m like, yeah, but if we just get some good content, we can kind of take a mediocre leader and make it work. But man, if I’m putting more weight on finding leaders, how are you finding them? What are you doing to to extract these leaders out of you know your community to find them?
Adam Ader — Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s really good. I think um for us, you know I think a big key has been has been clarity about what we want from a leader first and foremost.
Rich Birch — Okay, yep.
Adam Ader — And when you when you say, you know hey, I have a stack of mediocre leaders and I’m going to try to let the content be you know be a champion, I think we we have leaned hard instead into saying, what do you actually need to lead a good experience through this season? Right?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Adam Ader — And trying to set the bar for for people help them understand we don’t need you to be a preacher, a theologian, you know?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Adam Ader — You don’t need [inaudible] certificates to lead a good group. Man, you just got to have some relational chops and care enough to go in on this. And, and then reframing group leaders as as guides, right?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Adam Ader — You know, its sometimes we’ll use the term Sherpa. But now I think according to my daughters, that means that’s a clothing item. And more than it is, they know.
Rich Birch — Nice. That’s funny.
Adam Ader — But, you know, um but if we can reframe what we actually expect from them, and sort of like remove some of the terror, being asked to lead, right?
Rich Birch — Yes. That’s good. That’s good. Yep. For sure.
Adam Ader — You know I mean, that that helps us get people on the bus. And then you know we like to say that, you know, we can take a willing heart with some relational skill and a love for Jesus, and we can we can get them to the place where they can lead a great group. Um, I think we’ve been guilty in the past of kind of saying, you know, Hey, here’s, here’s your stuff, right? Here’s, here’s, here’s your content. Here’s, here’s a, here’s a one hour training…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Adam Ader — …and, uh, good luck. You know, go go forth us and, uh, and change lives. Uh, and I think that, uh, both through the way Rooted the structured and through the lessons we’ve learned around that over the years, we’ve learned that, um, having a, having a robust investment in helping those leaders figure it out, um, walking alongside of them, not just in a and it kind of a vague address sense, but, you know, weekly, we’re connected to these leaders and um helping them troubleshoot issues.
Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — In that sense, right, we are able to get leaders there. The second part of this is, and this is another lesson learned from Rooted for us. I swear, I don’t work for the Rooted network, but you’re going to hear that from me.
Rich Birch — No, it’s good. We’re fans of Rooted. We’ve had, we’ve had the Rooted guys on. We’ve, it comes up for sure. Like it’s, it’s a substrate and particularly, you know, fast growing churches, people across the country, it’s really had a huge impact. We, we love, I love the guys at Mariners and love, you know, their gift to to all of us through Rooted. It’s amazing. It’s great. So yeah, no, that’s good. What’s what’s the other lesson you’ve learned through that?
Adam Ader — Yeah, absolutely, is um that the the best recruiters of leaders are leaders for us.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Adam Ader — So yeah, and that’s that’s a Rooted foundational principle. And we’ve been able to sort of transplant that from Rooted to all of our group types.
Adam Ader — We start with that end in mind, where we’re asking leaders to from week one, be considering who’s who’s the person that can step up and do what you’re doing right now.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Adam Ader — And since most of them have come from this place of, hey, we got shoulder tapped by our leader, right.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Adam Ader — And ah they were crazy. But I took a step out and and I received what I needed to complete a good group experience. So that that has been really helpful for us. And then, you know, our group of pastors on the ground are just, man, they’re really good at casting vision…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Ader — …and making making compelling asks. So that’s kind of a secret sauce for us.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Talk to me about the support and training, just a little bit more, kind of flesh that out. If if I if one of those great groups pastors came to me and said, hey, we you know, you’d be interested, we’d be interested in you leading a group, um how how do you provide some training and support for me for, you know, a term or multiple terms? What’s that look like?
Adam Ader — Yeah, for us, it really comes down to we we do have an initial ah about a 90 minute training that we’re going to take all leaders through. And that’s where they’re going to gain base level understanding of our mission, our vision, our values and our systems in groups.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Love it.
Adam Ader — You know, that’s that’s the starting point. But then from there, once we sort of would get the yes, we seal the deal, you know, we close the sale. We get them connected to do a couple of things. The first one is we get them connected to a coach. And that’s a volunteer leader for us who leads leaders. Not a crazy concept. But that’s just one more voice in their ear, kind of telling them, hey, you can do this. And I got your back, right? I’m praying [inaudible] all that good stuff.
Adam Ader — And then we’re really committed to 10 weeks of ongoing training that happens around the first 10 weeks that their group meets.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.
Adam Ader — And that’s been really helpful for us. we’ve We’ve just kind of developed some pieces in-house that can be delivered in anything from a 10-minute bite-size ah video message to an hour-long discussion.

Rich Birch —That’s cool.
Adam Ader — But so it’s kind of modular for us. And for groups that meet on our site locations during the short term, those ten-week terms, they’re going to receive from one of our group staff members or coaches weekly guided training through those 10 topics.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Adam Ader — And they’re just around you know basic vital things you need to do to lead a group well. Things like how to you know create community from the start, how to serve together, how to deal with conflict, how to help people grow, all these things. And for our groups that generate that need offsite in homes or locations, we have that content in video format, and it can be sort of administered by their coach or by a staff member. Hey, watch this video. Let’s have a back and forth conversation about it. Let’s see how your group is doing in this area.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. And you know, both from Alpha and from Rooted, there’s there is some power you can see in the like, hey, we’re leading this together. We’re all together. We’re kind of doing some sort of pre-huddle thing, you know, a little bit of training, a little bit of um even like, hey, I’m having the trouble with this person or I’m not sure how to draw them out. It’s amazing how that kind of on-site in-person feedback really helps leaders grow and step into you know something great. So you can see how taking similar lessons and then applying them to the rest of your group system. Yeah, I can totally see how that is ah is working for sure.
Rich Birch — Pivoting in a slightly different direction I know when you know over the years sitting in the kind of executive pastor seat, the communication seat, trying to kind of you know we got a lot of different things we need to communicate. And I’m thinking three terms a year group stuff like that’s a lot of talking about groups to get people into groups. What does that look like for you guys? How do you actually communicate like how are you you know promoting groups what does that side of it look like? And then um yeah let’s start there that’s the starting point.
Adam Ader — Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s great. And, you know, it can’t it can kind of feel like a let’s just keep shoveling coal on to the same fire…

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Ader — …you know, over the course of the year thing.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Adam Ader — But ah but what what we found is actually kind of the regularity of it has really helped us kind of create some rhythms throughout the year that have like created a sense of expectancy in our people that have been with us for a while.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Ader — And helps even with things like, hey, when we’re talking speech and calendar, promotional marketing things, the The good thing is we you know we lean hard into celebrating wins of all sizes and we lean hard into gathering stories, right? I mean, if you’ve got the numbers and you’ve got the stories…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Ader — …then you know you can feel strongly like you’re winning. So if we’re if we’re gathering those things and we have a bucket of those stories, those testimonials, it makes marketing a little bit easier, right?
Adam Ader — And you know and then when we have a a marketing and communications team that has bought in with us, and when our upper leadership is also bought into the vision and the approach for groups, those conversations do become quite a bit easier, right?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Adam Ader — Obviously we all we all have one sandbox to play in, right? And we know that you know the weekend announcement um you know is kind of the thing that we all vie for, and the the sermon topic mention is you know, even oh that whole question…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the holy grail. Yeah, for sure.

Adam Ader — Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it’s but ah thankfully, you know, it doesn’t turn into a game of who can butter up the senior pastor best to to get a toss in. When the vision is there from the top, it makes that stuff a little easier. And so when we can go back and say, hey, this is the thing that that is both moving and growing, right, and we’re seeing life change happen in it for us in our context, it’s not really too hard to get the buy-in for the mention we need.
Adam Ader — The other thing that’s been really helpful for us is that we’ve learned, because we now have multiple group types available on this group finder, that trying to create a sense of FOMO, a fear of missing out for people, is, is a real thing that can lend some, uh, that can give us some kind of heat going into a group season.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good.

Adam Ader — Because when we can say, well, we can say, Hey, but we’ve got a group for you, no matter where you’re at on your journey, but they fill up fast and there’s not an unlimited set of spots for just the one big thing we’re all doing.

Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — You need to get up, you need to get up on that group finder on January 4th, when those groups go live…

Rich Birch — Right. Yep.

Adam Ader — …if you want your “pick of a litter.” So.
Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — That’s all you know that that thing I think has been able to replace some of that ah, Oh man, we have got to get the main stage announcement every week this month.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good.
Adam Ader — You know?
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. That’s good. Well, and you can see the, as somebody who’s mildly interested in marketing stuff, you can see how that kind of open window, hey, enrollments open, jump in, ah you know, a couple times a year, you could build some serious insight, excitement around that. We kind of, we kind of, you know, joked about it, but loop back on a lead pastor think of a lead pastor’s listening in and talk to us, you know, what would you say to a lead pastor about the like, random throwaway comment in their message about groups, something they’re learning in a group, you know, how important is that to the, you know, the the group’s culture at at your church?
Adam Ader — Yeah, yeah, you know, for us, um what it comes down to is that’s the most trusted voice in our organization for our people, right?
Rich Birch — Yep.
Adam Ader — We know it all. And um sometimes, you know, you get the sermon, right? Okay, we’re going to do the one big, “this is about community” sermon this year.
Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — You know, if it when you get that, you know, that’s gold.
Rich Birch — Right. Yep.
Adam Ader — We know that. But people are listening to that, to the things that are sort of in between the big points, right? So if, if your lead pastor can say, uh, you know, I did Rooted this fall…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Ader — …you know, and in my Rooted group, this is something that happened. In my Rooted group, here’s something I learned. Or here’s a way we connected or in my prayer experience during Rooted, I got, you know, I felt God speak to me in this way. Uh, man, to me, those, those reinforced the importance of the big announcements, and they turned people’s ears. Because we have to battle constantly the idea that all of our ex-Catholics, a lot of them don’t have a strong context for just the things that your mainline denominational churches do, right?

Rich Birch — Yep.
Adam Ader — So the idea that somebody came to us from the maybe the Methodist church down the road that they probably have some idea what a small group is, we can’t assume those things.
Rich Birch — Right.
Adam Ader — We can’t take those things for granted. So to hear personal stories, the impact stories, or have stories shared of life change from those things, those are those are invaluable to us. You know? They’re they’re also not things that we can count on at every moment because, like like you alluded to earlier, and in a church that is growing rapidly and whose decision making is filtered through the lens of how are we going to reach the prodigal. We have to fit in and align with that, or you know we’re just pulling sideways energy away from the mission, and that’s something we never want to do or be.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Um, do you do in any of your, um, types of groups in that maybe it’d be in that kind of small group, the kind of more typical small group content kind of group. Do you do sermon based groups, like groups that follow along and generate questions or maybe do you guys generate questions based on, you know, what you guys are talking about on the weekends? What tell me about that.
Adam Ader — Yeah, great question. We we have a weekly sermon study guide that’s developed in-house.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Ader — And goes out via just an email subscription list that can be accessed through our website.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Adam Ader — Goes out weekly service over the course of the year. And we make that available to any of our long-term group types that want to engage that way. It’s not a primary push for us, but it is available and an option.

Rich Birch — Right. Okay.

Adam Ader — Last data for us was that out of groups that are not meeting ah just in a 10-week window, those long-term groups, about 25 to 30% of them are using that weekly service study guide.
Rich Birch — Okay. Okay. That’s cool. Well, you’ve given us, then and then we’ll link to this in the show notes. You’ve given us the Parkview Group’s leader guide, ah which is a fantastic resource. I would encourage people to, you know, pick this up and, you know, take a look through it. It’s a, it’s a great resource even to inspire you, but tell us a little bit about where does this work in the training process? How are you using this tool? Talk to us a little bit about this.
Adam Ader — Yeah, that’s great. So all of our leaders, regardless of group type that they’re leading, even if it’s a group type like Alpha or Rooted that would have some of its own distinctive training elements, is still going to get walked through this handbook…

Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.

Adam Ader — …by a member of our team as their first step into groups. We feel like it’s really important for them to start with the overall mission, vision, and purposes of of our church, and then how groups fits into that. The last thing we’re trying to do is create offshoots, right…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Adam Ader — …or or little [inaudible] that meet in people’s living rooms…

Rich Birch — Yep, yes. Yes.

Adam Ader — …you know we don’t want that.

Adam Ader — But this handbook tool is meant to just give them grounding of you know what a group leader is, what we expect from them. You know the we have four traits listed in there that would a factor into what we think a successful group leader even is. And then it introduces them to our kind of our systems and processes, which you know are are essential to keep people on track with all that.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Adam Ader — So that’s really the place of the handbook.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great. i I’d encourage people to take a look what the part what there’s a bunch of it that I loved. I love the clarity of the language is clearly you spend have spent a lot of time to hey, let’s get to something that’s like super practical. Later in the book, there’s a whole or in the booklet, there’s a whole conversation around, hey, you are not alone. And it clearly outlines what a coach is and what a coach isn’t, which I loved. I love that language, particularly. I think it frames that discussion very well. And then also, which I think is so important because I’ve seen too many group members kind of die on the vine on this issue. It’s when to refer.

Rich Birch —So like, if there are things happening in your group that are going sideways, like because these people want to help folks, they just keep taking it. And it’s like, no, there are times where we should you know refer to other people. Let’s let’s escalate this stuff. I thought, again, what ah what a helpful, even just downloading that and ripping it off, sure, give them credit. But you know using that kind of language would be helpful ah you know for you friends that are listening in. It’s a great resource. Thanks for providing that for us.
Adam Ader — Oh yeah, no problem. You know It’s like every every group leader’s worst nightmare, right? That rogue group member that you don’t know what to do with. And man, we we feel like the quicker we can put those fears at ease for people, say it’s not your job to manage people in crisis through these things. You can support, pray and love, but man, send them where they need to go. That’s important.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Great, great, great resource. Thanks for for sharing that for us. As we kind of look to the future, what are, you know, when you think about groups down the road, what are the questions you’re asking, things that are on the horizon, stuff that you’re thinking about, you know, that we’re, you know, you’re wrestling with, or maybe some stuff you’re experimenting with, that kind of thing. What what are you thinking about for the future for groups at Parkview?
Adam Ader — Yeah, you know, I mean, one of the things we’re thinking about is how to help people sort of self-select into the right group for them at any given moment.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Adam Ader — And, you know, we we want to be able to offer with each of these open groups terms, we want to be able to offer something that can catch people no matter where they’re at along their spiritual journey. Right.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah, that’s great.
Adam Ader — And that’s where content’s helpful. But it also means when you have more options, you have more ah more potential for confusion, right? More opportunities to sort of lose people in the weeds of what do I do?

Rich Birch — Right.

Adam Ader — And we’ve also, you know, we’ve all seen what happens when somebody gets in the wrong kind of group, right?
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Adam Ader — And but so figuring out ways to help people gain a greater understanding of what’s available. But also um we’re having conversations about what maybe a short assessment tool for people might look like through through our app or our website to help people, you know maybe if they can answer a few questions and we can spit back some group suggestions, maybe even alongside some personal like growth resources and serving suggestions. That’s that’s the kind of tool that really has my ears perked.

Rich Birch — That’s cool.

Adam Ader — Because you know we all know that there’s no one size fits all group type or even personal growth tool that’s going to be exactly what everyone needs along the way. But trying to help people find the right avenue and the right step. We want simplicity, but we also want enough flexibility that we can yeah really help people take sort of a custom-made step forward.
Rich Birch — That’s great. I love that idea of, you know, you could imagine a survey that’s five or six questions that kind of helps get a sense of that. And then it spits out a likeliness score or something like that. Here’s a couple of different types of groups that you could try. um Yeah, I could see that could be really helpful paired within your online group selector. That could be super helpful for sure for helping people self sort.
Rich Birch — Yeah the the the upside of self-sorting on a you know a menu is, wow, there’s lots of options. The downside is, wow, there’s lots of options. You know?

Adam Ader — Right!

Rich Birch — So um you know helping people with that, is you can see where that’d be helpful. Well, this has been incredible, super helpful, Adam. Anything you’d like to say kind of in as we close today’s conversation, I really appreciate you being here today.
Adam Ader — Yeah, no, no, I would just I just like to say that, you know, the the real journey for me has been people, people, people.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Adam Ader — And, you know, through my whole time in student ministry here, where I was kind of running programming and and doing all of your standard student minister stuff. Um, you know, over, over that 13 year stretch, uh, it really became about, man, all these hours spent in front of the computer, uh, planning and writing, um, are they impacting people as much as, as the leaders that we’re pouring into? And the answer came back to me no over and over again.
Adam Ader — So when I had an opportunity to, uh, to jump into groups world, it made, it made perfect sense to me. And, um, man, every, every hour spent pouring into a leader, pouring into people, man, that’s not one wasted.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Adam Ader — And that’s where I want to continue to pour my, my energy and I hope others will too.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, I appreciate you being here, Adam. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Adam Ader — Yeah, absolutely, parkviewchurch.com is our church’s website. You can see what we’re doing, see what we’re doing to try to continue reaching people in the south suburbs, in the south side of Chicago. And um you know my contact information is also available on the website.
Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks for being here today, sir. Thank you so much.
Adam Ader — Hey, thanks Rich, appreciate it.

**Breaking Free: Addressing Sexual Brokenness in the Church with Nick Stumbo** Jan 30, 2025

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with **Nick Stumbo**, the Executive Director of **Pure Desire Ministries**.

According to a Barna study, 75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women view pornography at least occasionally, with 67% of pastors having a personal history of porn use. How can churches effectively address pervasive issues of sexual brokenness and foster healing within their congregations? Tune in as Nick shares his personal journey of healing, and how churches can create both a safe place and a safe process through which people can experience transformation and freedom.

**Finding healing.** // Despite the traditional approaches of using tools like accountability groups and software, Nick still found himself trapped in a cycle of pornography use during his time pastoring at East Hills Alliance Church. It wasn’t until he encountered Pure Desire’s deeper, more comprehensive approach—focused on understanding the “why” behind these behaviors—that he and his wife found lasting healing. His public disclosure to the church body led to a revival of forgiveness and healing that ultimately launched Pure Desire groups for men and women.

**A pervasive issue.** // Sexuality is a deeply ingrained part of human identity and many people grow up without proper teaching or guidance on how to handle their sexual desires. This, combined with the pressures of living in a highly sexualized culture, creates a perfect storm for addiction to thrive.

**Addressing the root cause.** // Pornography becomes the false solution to a real problem. We all have a warped view of our own identity and value and worth, and as a result, we have a warped view of who God is. Brokenness from past trauma or pain or lies we believe about ourselves stems from our early years. These emotional and psychological aspects of sexual brokenness need to be addressed for true healing to occur.

**The church’s key role.** // Churches often outsource healing in the area of sexual brokenness, encouraging individuals to seek professional counseling rather than providing support within the church. However, Nick believes that churches can and should play a key role in providing healing through small group-based ministries. The church, as a body of believers, is uniquely equipped to offer a safe space where people can share their struggles, find support, and experience long-term transformation.

**Create a safe place.** // Creating a culture of grace within the church is critical if we are going to shift the narrative surrounding sexual brokenness away from shame and secrecy and towards openness and support. Churches must become a safe space where people can confess their struggles without fear of condemnation. Leaders and staff may also feel pressured to present themselves as perfect. Rather than waiting until a crisis arises, begin creating a culture where issues of sexuality and pornography are discussed openly and regularly, without judgment. Provide opportunities for your staff to be discipled and pursue healing in this area as well.

**Create a safe process.** // Pure Desire Ministries can help churches provide clear pathways for people to get help, such as offering group ministries that focus on long-term recovery. Men and women can walk through a structured healing process, unpacking their personal stories and addressing deep-rooted issues of identity and worth.

Visit Pure Desire Ministries at puredesire.org to find local groups, purchase the Sexual Integrity 101 course, or see how your church can get involved. Plus download the free ebooks for 5 Steps to Freedom from Porn and 7 Keys to Understanding Betrayal Trauma.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is a topic that I know that people in your church are wrestling with. I know people on your team are probably wrestling with. It’s the kind of thing that we maybe don’t want to talk about, but we really should be talking about.

Rich Birch — Super excited to have Nick Stumbo with us. He is a third generation pastor, started his ministry career at East Hills Alliance Church in Washington state. He served as the lead pastor for more than a decade, observing the fallout of sexual brokenness and devastation in the lives of the men and women in his church.
Rich Birch — Confronted with his own addiction to pornography, Nick and his wife found hope and healing through counseling and group ministries of Pure Desire, and it radically changed their lives. Really looking forward to this conversation. His public disclosure to the church body led to a revival of forgiveness and healing that ultimately launched Pure Desire groups for men and women. Nick has stayed connected to Pure Desire and today serves as executive director. Nick, I am so glad to have you here today. Welcome to the show.
Nick Stumbo — Yes, thank you. So glad to be here.
Rich Birch — Okay. Fill in the picture there a little bit. If there’s, you know, what, what did I miss? How, how, how else do I want to, uh, you know, if people bump into you on the road, what, do what do you, what do you want to know about Nick Stumbo?
Nick Stumbo — Yeah, I think it’s so crucial that the ministry I get to help lead is the ministry that changed my life.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Nick Stumbo — Because my wife and I were really on the brink of of divorce because of my binge/purge issues with pornography. And I always like to clarify that like many, I think sincere Christian men, I believed my own lies. I believed that, okay, that time was the last time. I’m never going to go back to pornography. I’d apologize to my wife. I would own it. You know, I had accountability software. I did all the things that my Christian upbringing had taught me to do about this subject, and yet I would still find myself going back. And you just, you feel like you’re stuck in this cycle that you can never break out of until we found Pure Desire Ministries and really found ah still a very deeply biblical approach, but with a a much different angle than anything we knew before.
Nick Stumbo — And the way that that transformed our marriage and and my life is what led to, you know, the steps we took with our church and then ultimately becoming a part of the ministry was just seeing that there is real healing, that that Christ does set people free. But sometimes the answers we’ve given in the church are what I describe as being too thin. I mean, they’re they’re very true. Read your Bible and pray and trust God and confess. And all those things are vital elements.
Nick Stumbo — But what we have so often missed is the “why” question. Why do I keep going back to this thing? And when you understand the why, when you understand some of the deeper parts of your soul and your heart and your mind that need to be renewed, it’s a life-changing process. So I think that’s kind of filling in the blanks. It’s like, this isn’t just a job or another ministry. It’s a passion that we’re living. And then getting to see other people find freedom from something they’ve believed, maybe for decades. Well, this is this is the thorn in my flesh, right? This is the, all well, all guys struggle a little bit, don’t they? So I guess it just, it is what it is. It’s like, no, when when Christ said that we could be free, He meant it and we really can experience it um as we walk this road.
Rich Birch — Well, yeah, I don’t think there’s anybody that’s listening in today that’s like, oh, that I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is you know not an issue, but there’s some really compelling statistics. You did a study with Barna that reveals that 75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women view pornography, at least occasionally. And something like two thirds of pastors have a history with pornography, nearly 20% are still struggling, something like that.
Nick Stumbo — Yep, yep.
Rich Birch — Not, not… ah yeah This a pervasive issue. Let’s start with, from your perspective, why is this issue so pervasive even within the church? Like why why is this why does this seem to be one of those struggles that’s like defining our age?
Nick Stumbo — Yeah. Well, I think one of the pieces we often miss is just the origin of this is not sin. You know, the origin of this is we are sexual beings made in the image of God as sexual beings. You know, male and female, he created us. And in that sexuality, our male and female-ness is tucked the image of God, that we’re image bearers of God, even in our gender and our sexuality.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Nick Stumbo — And so it makes absolute sense that the enemy of our souls would want to get to the very core of our sense of identity and who God made us to be and create brokenness.
Nick Stumbo — And so what we like to bring up is that there’s not just a few people that struggle with some sexual addiction, but that we all have been born into a sinful world. We’ve had things done to us or by us that often are not discussed. And so ah what I find is so common in churches and Christian homes, and I mean, it’s my own story, is we just don’t talk about this topic. We don’t know how to address it. And yet everybody is a sexual being experiencing some level of fallenness in their sexuality.
Nick Stumbo — And so you ask, why do we struggle? It might be similar to if we said, you know, what if parents never taught their kids like just how to eat, like when to eat, what foods are good, what foods are bad. And just from day one, we just kind of left the fridge open and said, well, eat what you want, when you want, you know, and then if they got into their twenties and they had terrible eating habits. We’d say, well, well yeah, and no one ever trained them how to how to eat well, how to be a healthy human being. And yet that’s almost exactly what we’re doing in our sexuality.
Nick Stumbo — We’re all born into it. We all have desires and longings and hormones and and things that that God gave us and that Satan and sin have twisted. And if we haven’t been discipled, If we haven’t been trained, if we haven’t been given opportunities to learn and grow, then we’ve gotten stuck in some really unhealthy patterns. And for all that we know about Christ and the gospel and the truth, if that area of our life hasn’t been touched by others who helped train and disciple us, I think we shouldn’t be surprised that people are struggling.

Nick Stumbo — So it’ it’s really, I think, a combination of all those things, a lack of conversation, a lack of training, and just the reality that sexuality is a part of our human experience. And then maybe you add to that the fourth component that we’re we’re living in such a sexualized culture that if you put you know immature, and if I could use that word about our sexuality, we’re often immature in our thinking, immature Christians into a world that is just overrun by sexuality. Well, of course we’re going to struggle.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Of course.

Nick Stumbo — Because we haven’t really ever learned or been taught a better way.
Rich Birch — Yeah, well, I we’re already hearing a little bit of where I think Pure Desire, you know, your ministry has a, I think, a really healthy and, you know, so maybe a slightly different approach to this area than than we’ve maybe seen traditionally. But, you know, you talked about at the beginning that you found that, you know, Pure Desire had a unique angle that, you know, maybe other ministries or other approaches or maybe just our traditional approach was too thin. How does Pure Desire help in this situation? How can you either help an individual or help a ministry that’s that’s trying to wrestle with these issues?
Nick Stumbo — Yeah. Well, I think some of my own story plays into that. You know, as I mentioned, I was doing the things the church taught me to do. In college I had an a men’s of accountability group where every week we would meet together. And, and I think this is really common in churches and kind of say, are you struggling? You know, did you have a bad week? Did you relapse? Did you look at pornography? You know, someone said no. We’re like, Hey, great job. Keep it up. And if someone said, yeah, I had a bad week, like, man, we’re so sorry. We pray for you.
Nick Stumbo — And when you think about that environment, while it it is wonderful and appropriate to have other men or women in our lives that can ask us the hard questions, it really is very performance-based and very much sin management. Did you do the thing this week that you don’t want to do? And if you did it, try harder not to do it this week.
Nick Stumbo — But what is so often ignored, um and what I didn’t see in those days of weekly accountability and all the steps I was taking to be free, was what were the deeper issues that were driving my use of pornography? Like, why was I going to that? And I think that’s what’s made Pure Desire’s approach so revolutionary is understanding that pornography is not necessarily the problem.
Nick Stumbo — It is a problem, but in our lives, it’s not the problem. That pornography is the symptom of much deeper issues. And I think that’s where we start to see the commonality for, whether you’re a Christian or a non-Christian, is we all have a little bit of a warped view of our own identity and value and worth. And because of that, we have a warped view of who God is. And there is parts of our brokenness that because of past trauma or pain or just lies that we believe about ourselves that come out of our early years.
Nick Stumbo — I mean, I’ve I’ve done groups with like hundreds of men now and I think every one of them has some version of the lie of believing I’m not good enough. Do I have what it takes? Do I measure up as a man? Maybe I’m not, I’m not a real man. I’m not good enough. And and that comes from experiences that we’ve had in life as a child and our growing up years. And what happens with those lies, those core beliefs that we’re carrying around is we need to have an answer to them. And of course the right answer is understanding who we are in Christ and in God.
Nick Stumbo — But the challenge is those lies have been rooted in our soul through experiences and through negative relationships or things that happen to us. And when we just preach at it or or throw a verse at it or pray about it, that tends to be a very cognitive response to something happening deeper in our soul.
Nick Stumbo — And so if we cannot understand why I go to pornography, because pornography becomes a false solution to a real problem. Because in a moment, for all of us, whether it’s pornography or fantasy or acting out in any kind of sexually compulsive behavior, for a moment, those lies get answered.
Nick Stumbo — We feel valued. We feel seen. We feel heard. We feel important. We feel wanted. And even if it’s followed a few moments later by guilt and shame, our brain, as God designed it, latches on to that feeling of being good enough and says, man, that reward was worth it. Because it was answering my my deeply held questions. So what we try to help people see is that, yes, pornography is a problem, but actually in your life, it’s functioning as a pseudo-solution. And if we can help you get into some of that deeper stuff of why you go there, and and then learn how to have real accountability…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …which isn’t just telling other people ask me how I’m doing, but is saying I’m learning to be accountable to other people by having commitments that I’m following through on. I’m taking responsibility for my own journey, and not just telling people to check in on me, ah then healing and transformation really can be possible.
Nick Stumbo — And I think what what also goes with that is you start to talk about, you know, soul lies and understanding where we need to experience God and and relearn some of those negative messages. You see how it can be a long process. You know, we’re talking about transform. One of the things we say at Pure Desire is we’re not here to change a behavior. We’re here to change the way you do life.
Nick Stumbo — And changing the way you do life, you know, for any one of us, like that takes work and effort and consistency.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — And I think it’s an area where churches have been challenged because, you know, we want to have a great men’s weekend and talk about pornography and, and men confess and we’re all like, man, and God forgives. And it’s awesome. It is. I’ve been in some of those experiences, but then we kind of send men home, or women, you know, women can have similar experiences and we’re like, all right, thumbs up. We did it. We dealt with that.
Rich Birch — Right. Check that off.
Nick Stumbo — But if we’re talking about changing the brain…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Nick Stumbo — …like this is going to be a long process.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And churches, I think need to um embrace that as part of a healing structure in their church.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I think that’s ah what a fresh perspective, and I think a realistic perspective. If you’ve walked with anyone who has struggled in this area, you realize this is true. And there’s like an interesting vicious loop there, you know, I’ve seen…

Nick Stumbo — Yes.

Rich Birch — …of like people look for some sort of quick fix and they think they’ve had, they found it and they find the quick fix, but then that doesn’t work over time. And then there’s more shame and more hiding and more, you know, and it it just keeps going on.

Rich Birch — One of the things it’s, um one of the things that I see about Pure Desire, just as a learning about you kind of from the outside looking in, it really appears like you um have a belief that really the the healing, this process should be local church centered, that really the local church offers a unique kind of angle on this and help towards this. What are some steps that church leaders could take to really kind try to create a supportive environment where this these issues are acknowledged and addressed?
Rich Birch — Because I feel like this is one of those areas where we we all know that this is out there, but maybe it’s not just not coming up in conversation. So help me understand, what could we do as a church to try to be the kind of place where, hey, you know we’re a supportive environment that people would actually be willing to even talk about it.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah, yeah, I love that. And we truly believe that the church is the context where healing takes place. And unfortunately, too many churches have outsourced healing in this area. Because it feels too big, it feels too messy. It’s like, you know, go see a counselor, go see a professional, get help and come back when you’re better. And we might not say it that way, but I think that’s the feeling people get is my church doesn’t know how to handle my issues. I have to go somewhere else to get healing.
Nick Stumbo — And yet we have seen so consistently that what creates healing is walking through a transformative experience with a small group of other people who are committed to you, committed to the process, and committed to their own healing. And as men and women walk in that small group environment, and for us it’s a period of eight to ten months that those groups take…
Rich Birch — Wow.
Nick Stumbo — …to really help someone process all of the different steps and stages. That’s where they start to find traction and healing. And and they also find relationships with other men or other women at a level they’ve never had before. Because not only did they tell someone their secrets in kind of like a confessional moment…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …but then they kept walking with that person through the healing process. So so when you think about like a safe confidential small group environment, like what better place than the body of Christ?
Rich Birch — Right. Amen. Yeah.
Nick Stumbo — Author Sam Black, who wrote the book, The Healing Church, and is a part of Covenant Eyes, he says that you know churches really need to think about being a safe place and having a safe process.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Nick Stumbo — And I think those are probably the two primary components for churches to think about, and they really have to go in conjunction. How do we be a safe place? How do we create an atmosphere where we really express to people, it is okay to be a sexual being with brokenness and come to our church and ask for help.
Nick Stumbo — Like and and one of the primary things I communicate to pastors in churches where we need to shift our language there is to stop talking about pornography like “those people”. You know “If a few of you…”

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Nick Stumbo — You know if anyone in our church has a sexual addiction, like raise your hand. Like right?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Nick Stumbo — Nobody wants to be part of that club. And we treat it like, well, there’s there’s maybe a few people that need to be helped. And yet as the data with the Barna report so clearly shows, a majority of people in church would say, I have an unresolved struggle with pornography.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — So how do we change our language to say all of us are sexual beings? All of us need to be trained and discipled. We’ve all got room to grow. And so we have a program to help all of us learn and and walk in a healthier way of freedom.
Nick Stumbo — And just and then continuing to say that as a church, because I I think what we’re up against, and I mentioned it earlier, is this has been such a taboo topic for so many churches.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — It’s like, we maybe mention it once a year in kind of like a sex is for marriage kind of sermon, and we we prep it weeks ahead, and we’re like, don’t bring your kids, and this is gonna be PG-13.

Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — Like, we make it so weird and different…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …that it almost amplifies the problem…
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — …to feel like we really don’t know how to talk about this. But if we’re regularly you know mixing into our sermons and our talks and our communication, like including sexuality is one of the areas we might be struggling with brokenness and saying…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …and and we are so ah here for you in that area. So how do we create that culture of grace? How do we create that safe place where people know my church helps people in this area?
Nick Stumbo — Because when someone hits their moment of crisis, you know, that’s what we find people are usually going to reach out. You know, we know we should be proactive. We know we should deal with this earlier. But frankly, many people wait until she catches him with something on his phone. He catches her in an emotional, you know, texting affair with someone else. Like stuff blows up. And in that moment, the question is who will they reach out to? Because if they haven’t consistently heard and seen that your church offers help in this area, I can tell you they’re not going to reach out to a church.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — And what we find when people come to us is they don’t know anyone. They’re like, we don’t even know where to go with this problem because nobody talks about it.
Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.
Nick Stumbo — So I think that’s step one, being that safe place that when, when people hit a crisis moment, or they catch their teenager, you know, looking at something on their smartphone or like. I remember our church talking about this.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — I remember that they help people. So you’ve been a safe place, but then you have to have a safe process.
Rich Birch — Right
Nick Stumbo — It’s like, well, what do we actually do to help you, right?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Nick Stumbo — We can’t just talk about it and then say, now go get better. And that’s where Pure Desire can come alongside a church and help create a group-based ministry that is lay leader led. It’s not meant to be led by the pastor or a professional counselor. We’re here to equip volunteers that have a passion for this ministry to facilitate the groups. And it doesn’t even need to be Pure Desire, but it’s that idea of when people come to us and say, we need help, that we don’t just say, oh, go see a counselor.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — And counselors are valuable and counselors have a role to play…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — …because they do have expertise to walk into our story. But really that healing experience is going to be community-based. It’s going to be peer-based…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …and the church is the place for that. So how could you develop a process when someone does, they see you’re a safe place and they raise their hand and they I mean they’re not going to raise it publicly…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …but they maybe send a private email or text to a pastor and say, Hey, I I need help…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo —…for the pastor to say, hey, our men’s groups are on this night. Our women’s groups meet on this night. Here’s the contact. They’re gonna walk you through how to get started. Well, now you you can be a healing church.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Nick Stumbo — Because you’ve got not only a safe place for people to come forward, but then a safe process to engage them in…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Nick Stumbo — …that doesn’t just involve sending them away to a professional counselor.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Nick Stumbo — And and we’ve just seen when churches are equipped, man, the impact they can make in their community really is phenomenal.
Rich Birch — Love it. Now I know there’s like a ton and you offer a lot of training and resources around this. So it’s a little bit of an unfair question, but like, can you give us a peek up under the hood a little bit on those groups? Can you unpack what it looks like in both practice, in in both the individual and group settings? Like what does that, what’s that actually look like? I get it’s 8 to 10 months. Give us a sense of kind of some of the telltale signs. And again, I realize that there’s a ton of training that you do. So obviously it’s again, it’s unfair, but give us a sense, a little bit of a peek into what that looks like.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah. I think for us, it’ it is really key to see that we want to treat sexuality as a people problem. Too often churches still want this to be a man’s problem. But as the data shows, 40% of women in church say, I have struggles with pornography. And in fact, if you look at younger women, Gen Z and millennials, it’s 64% and 62% of women…
Rich Birch — Wow.
Nick Stumbo — …say on some level, I’m viewing pornography.
Rich Birch — Okay.
Nick Stumbo — So that’s that’s a big part of what we do is we say this is a people problem, not a men’s problem.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — And we also acknowledge that if this is happening in a marriage, there are two people being impacted. And those two people both need help, but they need very different help. The one who’s been struggling needs it to go on a recovery journey, to overcome their behaviors, to learn what’s driving them to it, to develop healthy patterns moving forward.
Nick Stumbo — But that betrayed spouse is hurting. They’re wondering what to trust. They’re wondering what they did wrong. I mean, there are all kinds of questions. And if we only help the struggler, we can almost communicate a double shame message to that spouse who feels like, what did I cause this? Can I fix it? And they just feel isolated and alone.
Nick Stumbo — And so that’s why we have groups for men who struggle. And groups for women who struggle. And then we have groups for men who are feeling that on the betrayal side and for women who are betrayed. Because when a couple can walk through some healing together, have a supportive group around them in their journey, that we have found is the best recipe for the marriage ah to succeed long term.
Nick Stumbo — And so, the The materials are you know they’re there it’s not only group-based, but there are actual materials that people walk through. And I think it’s one of the uniquenesses that sometimes ah groups at church can be like a book study.

Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — Like we we just come together to talk about a book and and we then we go home and don’t really do much with it. What you’re doing in a Pure Desire group is you’re doing your own work to really unpack and understand your own story. You’re writing out during the week answers to these questions.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — And then when you come to group, you’re not necessarily talking about the book as much as you’re answering questions about your life. In in a safe, programmed kind of way, you’re learning how to unpack everything and share openly by simply reading what you wrote.

Rich Birch — Interesting.

Nick Stumbo — And it’s that interaction as I do that and someone else does that that, you know, we’re not just there shooting from the hip about, well, here’s what I think about sexuality or here’s what I… No, you’re actually saying, here are, here in my life, some of the the worst moments that I had as a child and here are the messages I remember believing after that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — Man, and you share that, and then someone else does, and someone else does like, the eye-opening kind of light bulb moments that come as I tell parts of my story out loud that I’ve I’ve never really connected the dots to how much they’ve impacted my way of seeing myself and God and others, it’s it’s transformational.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Nick Stumbo — So group-based but also curriculum-based and really rooted around doing my own work and then bringing that work to the group in a safe environment to share things that I really need to have others hear. And then when I share those things and I’m accepted, I’m valued, I’m affirmed. That’s what really begins to change those negative messages that have been taking us to pornography all along.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Nick Stumbo — So it’s it’s very relational, it’s very meaningful. And I think what surprises people, I mean, this was my reaction too. In some of the lessons, people are surprised how little we talk about sexual brokenness or pornography. It’s like, well, you know, I thought we were here to fix our porn problem.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.
Nick Stumbo — It’s like, yeah, we are. But the problem again is the symptom and what we’re going after in group is the roots.
Nick Stumbo — And so some of the lessons I’ll tell people like upfront, you may not completely understand right away how this connects, but trust the process. Trust that this has been, you know, tried and it’s become tried and true material over 25 years. And it’s leading you to a place of understanding and recognition. And because we need to recognize part of the reason I’m stuck is I can’t see what I can’t see.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Nick Stumbo — Like part of why I continue to struggle is because I can’t see the things that have been tripping me up and I’ve got these blind spots.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Nick Stumbo — And if I just assume like, well, I know how to manage my own recovery. I know what I need. We’re probably just going to keep stuck in that same cycle.
Rich Birch — Right. Just end up right back there.
Nick Stumbo — But if, if we’re willing to trust a process to say, we’re going to help you unpack and unlearn some things that you maybe didn’t even know you needed to unlearn. That’s where it becomes life changing. So its ah, yeah, and we provide leader training. We provide tons of support around frequently asked questions and issues that come up in group.
Rich Birch — Yep. Love it.
Nick Stumbo — And you know what if someone has a legal issue? Like we get that sexuality gets messy…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — …and it might be something that’s new for you or your group or your church, but we’ve handled it before.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And we can answer the question, and we’re here to be the coach, the guide, the friend that empowers you to do the ministry in your church. And so that’s a little bit more about our approach of working with churches.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. So let’s pivot to maybe think about the same issue, but from just a slightly different lens. You know, let’s say I’m a leader, I’m maybe an executive pastor on team at a church, and I want for my staff team, I want to be the kind of place where people can raise their hand and say, hey, I’m I’m struggling with this.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And and I want us to be that. I’m not entirely sure how to do that. I think there’s an interesting kind of dual pressure in our culture that’s like set up to just make failure happen.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Which is, you know, there’s like a spectrum of decisions that people will make. They’ll make somewhere on the end of the spectrum is like silly, foolish, unwise. And then you you step over sinful. And then it goes from sinful to like, you know, really like terrible sin and then like ultimately like antichrist, like this person’s like evil.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And, but what I, it seems like what happens when people um confess a sin in this area, oftentimes we can treat them with, um you know, they just become canceled. We just flush them out.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And then I think what happens is people watch that and then then we all just stuff our issues down.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — We’re like, well, I know what I learned from this experience is don’t ever raise your hand.
Nick Stumbo — Because that got that guy kicked out.
Rich Birch — So what can we do for our teams? Yeah, that guy, that guy got kicked out. So how do we create cultures with, particularly with our staff teams where people can raise their hand and, or we talk about these things in a way that, you know, it’ll, it kind of creates the kind of culture, particularly with the people that work for us.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah, that’s a great question. And I believe one of the items we miss is that men and women who enter into full-time ministry are still men and women who have a story…

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Nick Stumbo — …who are on a journey towards Christ-likeness, but, but that’s a journey and we all know it. Like we’ve got weaknesses and you know, we’re comfortable saying, Hey, we’re all sinners saved by grace. And then, you know, as Dietrich Bonhoeffer says, we’re unthinkably shocked when we find out there’s an actual sinner among us. Like we didn’t really mean that. It’s like, well, no, we are sinners.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And just because you got the title Pastor or leader or Reverend or whatever title you get, like that doesn’t magically cleanse you of your weaknesses and your sins. And then you add to that what we have found is that there is not a single seminary or Bible college that is proactively equipping future pastors in the area of their own sexuality.
Nick Stumbo — That’s always left to like, well, that’s your own spiritual development. That’s something you do on the side. Like we’re going to train you to teach the word of God and to run a church and to lead the ministry. And we just hope those other pieces take care of themselves.

Nick Stumbo — So you’ve got men and women who have their own story and their own brokenness that are receiving no training on how to handle their own sexuality in a healthy way. But then we ordain them or license them or hire them. And we just assume like, well, you’re good to go, right? And then as you brought up, there’s not this safe expectation that the pastor or leader can pursue help.

Nick Stumbo — And so I think if someone’s listening and they’re in that position where they’re overseeing a staff, they’re helping lead a team, I think it begins there with an attitude that says, hey, we know you love the Lord and we know you’re called to ministry and we know you’re gifted and we know you’re a sexual being that likely has unaddressed sexual brokenness. And as part of your employment here, we actually want to be a part of your healing, not a place where you have to hide what’s going on.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Nick Stumbo — And so for a church to think about how can we provide opportunities to say to our staff, we want you to pursue healing. We want you to be discipled in this area. You know, we we too often wait for it to be a discipline issue when we could start out with it being a discipleship issue.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good, that’s good.
Nick Stumbo — And so if churches had that attitude, we’re just here to disciple you. And if you’re new to ministry or young in ministry, we’re just going to assume you probably haven’t been helped in this area.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Nick Stumbo — One of our board members was on staff at a church of, you know, six, seven thousand people in Northern Idaho. And ah he was the executive pastor and really in charge of developing new staff. And he said, anytime we hired a young man, I just grabbed him and put him in my Pure Desire group. Cause I said, I you know, I know you’re on worship team and you look great in skinny jeans, but I also know you’ve got sexuality in your life and probably no one’s helped you. So you’re just going to be in our group and and they would just make that assumption of if you’ve never addressed this area, we’re just going to help you. We’re not even going to wait for you to ask for help. We’re just going to provide opportunity.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — And what that did to that staff culture said, it’s okay to need help. And we’d rather be on the helping you side than wait until it blows up in your life. Because there, I mean, we know there are issues that when they cross certain lines, like they can cost a career, they can cost a job, and they they should, it’s appropriate that a person in that place be removed from ministry. But I always ask the question, what help could we have provided them 5, 10, 20 years ago…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Nick Stumbo — …to equip them for a lifelong ministry of health and freedom. So I think just getting in and wrestling with that, you know, at Pure Desire, we have online groups for pastors only that are safe, confidential, that walk people through that experience. Because very often that story I told of like staff or pastors doing it in the local church, while that’s ideal, that may not be available.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — And so we’ve got groups that meet online where a pastor could go through a healing experience and then really be equipped maybe to be that voice in the congregation that can help launch groups or help other staff ah find healing in their own story.
Rich Birch — Love that. i what ah I want to just underline something you said there. I think we have a huge upstream kind of cultural opportunity. We we don’t assume that our people are perfect when we hire them. We don’t assume. I remember a couple of years ago, I was watching a leader that I deeply respect had you know one of these like mentors from afar, somebody who um, you know, your, I just thought the world of. And they, they, their life blew up. They made all kinds of decisions that just like exploded, blew up all over everybody.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And I was watching an online service where it was kind of mid blow up and this person got up and was still kind of trying to defend themselves and all that. And I had this very sad feeling come over me because I was like, Oh friend, you think that we think that you’re perfect. Like you, the way you’re positioning yourself right now, you’re trying to kind of present yourself as if you’r…
Nick Stumbo — Yeah. All okay. Nothing to see here. Nothing behind the curtain.
Rich Birch — Yeah. and And I had a tremendous amount of sympathy for that person at that moment.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — Because I was like, oh, brother, like, like, no, like, if you just would have raised your hand and been like, yeah, I’m like, the gospel still works. I am a sinner. I’m I’ve screwed up in this area. I’m not perfect. I I and I and would have, if they would have submitted themselves, I think if they would have submitted themselves to some sort of process by which they would have like, you know, been able to take some steps forward. Yeah, I think we would have as the body of Christ responded and been like, wow, like, yeah, we wanna help.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah.
Rich Birch — But but we had, and I I so for me, that was like, I I think us even just creating the kind of cultures where we realize, hey, we’re not asking you to be perfect. We know we know you aren’t perfect.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And so, and nor am I. Like, that like let’s let’s just talk about this as an open way. Yeah, that’s that’s great. Super, super good.

Nick Stumbo — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Well, you’ve actually given us our links to a couple eBooks, Five Steps to Freedom from Pornography and Seven Keys to Overcome Betrayal. Could you kind of tell us a little bit more about these and and how could how could they be used? Where would they be helpful in this kind of dialogue discussion, either with our teams or in our church or that sort of thing?
Nick Stumbo — Yeah, these eBooks were really meant to be a good starting point…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Nick Stumbo — …where someone says, I’ve I’ve done, you maybe like me, they’re saying, I’ve done the try harder. I’ve got the accountability software. I’ve told people to check in on me and I keep going back. Those eBooks would help them understand what does a process of freedom look like? How could you get started? And the hope is that it might present our structure in a way that they go, you know what? One of those groups sounds like exactly what I need. Because we get that upfront. eight to 10 months feels like that’s so long.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Right.
Nick Stumbo — Like there’s gotta be a plan B that I can do in three weeks, right?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Nick Stumbo — Like, so the five steps really is meant to be like, Hey, let’s get you started. Let’s help you think about some things. Start to put some, some of the pieces together, and then lead you to a place where you might see that there’s more work to be done here than you thought.

Nick Stumbo — And then on the betrayal side, I think so many spouses don’t even realize that there is something legitimately happening when they’re feeling betrayed that creates a very natural trauma response in the brain and in the soul. And that the questions that women are asking when they find out, or men, when they find out their spouse has been viewing pornography or acting out in other ways sexually, like the way our heart and mind respond are actually very common to one another.
Nick Stumbo — And if we can begin to understand it through that lens of betrayal and trauma and woundedness, then rather than putting blame on ourself or what sadly still can happen is where people feel like, well, if I’m just more sexual or if we have sex more, that’ll fix their problem. And it’s like, no, their problem isn’t actually about sex, and you didn’t create it and you can’t fix it. And the seven keys to betrayal trauma is, or to understanding betrayal, and is going to help someone begin to understand their own story and what’s happening to them. And what does a ah road towards health and recovery and and finding grace and forgiveness, what does that look like?
Nick Stumbo — And in a similar way to help a betrayed spouse, see, you know what, a group environment might be what I need as well to walk through this. So we, we wanted people to understand, you know, what we do is still a little new and different than I think people have understood. Um, but those eBooks can help someone take that step, understand ah what the road might look like, and then be willing to maybe take the longer journey, uh, in one of our groups.
Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. That’s good. And we’ll, like I say, we’ll link to those in the show notes so that you can, you know, pick up ah copies of that for yourself, for people in your, your church. I think that would be super helpful. I also noticed this eight-part video series. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? That kind of caught my eye in this whole discussion. Kind of tell us a little bit more about that.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah, we wanted to help people understand our approach to healing, to understand the ways in which this goes beyond just being a bad decision people make to how is it rooted in our ways of thinking and believing that probably go all the way back to childhood.
Nick Stumbo — And we understand that that can be a little challenging to understand or to think through. And so this eight part video series is meant to be the 101. So it’s Sexual Integrity 101. It’s your entry level class to understand sexual addiction from a biblical perspective.

Rich Birch — Good.

Nick Stumbo — And to see a pathway to healing that may be more robust and a little bit more involved than you’ve expected before. So it’s ah a wonderful starting point for a church, for a staff, for a staff team to go through and say, hey, we we want to understand this topic better.
Nick Stumbo — We used to present this primarily as a two-day workshop. And as you might expect, it was difficult at times to get people to attend a two day conference on pornography and sexuality. Because what we found is if people had the problem, it felt exposing to go to a conference and talk about it.

Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — Like then people will know I’m struggling. And if you don’t have the problem, then people felt like, well, I don’t think that’s for me.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — So whichever side you were on, you didn’t feel like you should go to the conference.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nick Stumbo — And we’d have people after they came, they’ll say, man, my whole church needs to hear this because this is actually unpacking our common struggle…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — …how God made us, how sin and Satan trip us up and what does healing look like. And so that’s what the eight part video series is meant to do. It’s for men and women equally. We have men and women on our team teaching. We interview couples in recovery. You hear from male and female experts like Jay Stringer and Juli Slattery. And so it’s a powerful introductory tool for a church or a leader to understand what is Pure Desire going to do and what will their groups be like because it really establishes that foundation.
Rich Birch — Love it. Well, friends, I want to encourage you to get connected to Pure Desire. I’m sure there are people that are listening in that are like, hey, this this sounds like, you know, so helpful, either for me, for people on my team, for my church. So where do we want to send people online? And then what kind of final words would you have for us as we kind of wrap up today’s episode, Nick?
Nick Stumbo — Everything I shared about can be found on our website, puredesire.org. So at puredesire.org, you can find a list of local groups that might be meeting around you. We have ah around 1200 churches that have groups in them.
Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.
Nick Stumbo — And so we have a map on there that would show that. You could also find out what online groups are happening. It’s where you can find and purchase Sexual Integrity 101, which by the way, is a DVD set or a streaming option through our website. you There’s no subscription required. It’s just a one-time purchase. And then you can find out all the information about our counseling department and other materials that we have available. So all of that’s at puredesire.org.
Rich Birch — Great.
Nick Stumbo — I think my my final word, especially as I think of leaders, pastors, churches, this is an area that can quickly begin to feel overwhelming. I’ve actually had a couple of leaders say to me, Nick, we feel like if we open this door, too many people will come through and we won’t know what to do with them.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Wow.
Nick Stumbo — And I get it, but then their response is, so we just haven’t done anything. And to me, that feels so incredibly sad that we we recognize it’s a big problem. We suspect there’s probably more people in our church that need it than we realize. But then we get overwhelmed and we don’t do anything. And we’re here at Pure Desire to say, you can do this while the the topic itself can be challenging, a healing a system of groups isn’t as difficult as it it might sound. We’ve done all the hard work. I heard a pastor the other day say, Nick, what I love about Pure Desire is I feel like it’s an 80/20 relationship. I do 20% of the work and you guys have already done 80%.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.
Nick Stumbo — And if I just create a little bit of structure around it, like I bring in your tools and your training and our people run with it. And that’s what we want it to be is to feel like you’ve got the tools you need. We can provide the resources and expertise and together we can make a kingdom-sized difference in people’s lives in this topic that so often gets left unaddressed.

Rich Birch — Right. Love it.
Nick Stumbo — So if you’re in that place of feeling like this is too big, it’s too messy, it gets legal, too fast, like. Yeah, we’ve been there. And we can help you and you can do this because when the church becomes the healing place for sexuality in our world, I think it’s going to evangelize and reach people in ways we are only beginning to see. Because the darkness that’s in our sexuality isn’t just in the church, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Nick Stumbo — Like we know our world is lost in sexuality and in their brokenness. And if the church can shine a line on it, not in a condemning way, but in a helping way to say there’s, there’s freedom, there’s hope, your marriage can be saved.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Nick Stumbo — I think the church will just be winning people over in a whole new way. And um there’s a tremendous opportunity. So don’t run from it. Don’t think it’s too big. We’ve done the hard work and we’re here to help. And as you step into this, I believe the light will shine through you and your church ah in ways you never thought it could, especially in this area of our sexuality.
Rich Birch — Love it. What a great way to to end. You can do this, we can help. I think that’s fantastic. We want to make sure people check out your website. Again, so that’s puredesire.org. We want to send people over there. It’s a great starting point, all kinds of resources, great way to to step in. You can also have the link there and to those ebooks in our show notes. Nick, I really I I really appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much, sir.
Nick Stumbo — Yeah. Thank you, Rich. Love being a part of it. And thank you for having this conversation.

**The Art of Preaching: Balancing Depth and Accessibility in a Secular World with Mark Clark** Jan 23, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re learning from **Mark Clark**, the founder of **Village Church**, a multi-site church with locations in multiple cities across Canada and online around the world. He is now one of the Senior Lead Pastors at **Bayside Church** in California. In today’s podcast we’re discussing how *the Bible will need explanation*.

Every week, the pulpit provides a unique opportunity to connect God’s Word with the questions and struggles of a modern, often skeptical world. But how do we preach with both theological depth and cultural accessibility? Tune in as Mark offers valuable insights into effective sermon preparation and how to communicate in a way that’s accessible to both skeptics and believers.

**Engage religious and secular audiences.** // During his time at Village Church, Mark balanced seeker-sensitive models of preaching with expository preaching. He emphasizes the importance of teaching the Bible while addressing both religious and secular audiences, using Tim Keller’s example of the Prodigal Son parable. Engage both the “older brother” (religious) and the “younger brother” (secular) in every sermon, ensuring that the gospel is presented in a way that resonates with all listeners.

**The art of preaching**. // Regardless of a preacher’s experience communicating from the pulpit, they constantly need to refine their craft, preparing thoroughly to ensure that their sermons are both biblically sound and culturally relevant. Dedicate specific times during the week for sermon preparation, ensuring ample time to study, reflect, and refine the message. Rehearse the sermon multiple times to become comfortable with the content and delivery, allowing for a more natural and engaging presentation. Finally, incorporating stories and examples from everyday life to make biblical truths more relatable and understandable for the congregation.

**Keep things fresh.** // Preachers face a real challenge to keep things fresh over time, particularly after years of preaching on the same content or passages. The pressure to deliver high-quality sermons is particularly intense during big days on the church calendar, such as Christmas or Easter. To stay fresh and keep sermons engaging, Mark is constantly collecting illustrations and practicing his delivery. He emphasizes the need for preachers to work hard, dedicate time, and ensure their messages are winsome and persuasive.

**Offer honest feedback.** // Preaching plays a critical role in church growth. Church staff and executive pastors can support their lead pastors by creating space for them to focus on sermon preparation. If you’re a trusted voice in your lead pastor’s life, provide them with honest feedback and practical help in order to improve the overall quality of preaching.

**Preaching resources.** // In addition to his preaching, Mark hosts *The Mark Clark Podcast*, where he shares his sermons, often accompanied by a brief introduction. This format not only provides biblical content but also offers insights into the mechanics of effective preaching. Mark also has an upcoming book, *The Problem of Life*, which addresses fundamental questions about the human experience, such as the search for meaning, the nature of suffering, and the quest for joy in a seemingly disenchanted world. Find these resources and more on his website at www.pastormarkclark.com.

Visit Bayside Church to see what they are doing and listen to examples of Mark’s preaching. Plus, follow him on Instagram @mark_clark. And don’t forget to download the unPredictions Team Playbook for this podcast episode.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. You’re reaching us at the end of our month of Unpredictions. All month long, we’ve been talking about things that were true last year, will be true this year, and are continuing to be true next year. Super excited to have Mark Clark with us. He’s the founder of a church in my home and native land, Village Church, a multisite church with locations across cities in Canada, but now serves as the global senior pastor at a fantastic church, Bayside Church, a multisite church in California. Has authored several several books, hosted a great podcast. Bayside was founded by Ray Johnston and has grown to over 20,000 people a week, which is amazing. They have eight locations in California. Mark, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.
Mark Clark — Thanks. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Always good to hang out with a fellow Canadian talking church stuff. It’s good.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good to connect. So we’re today we’re going to talk about ah the Bible and and helping people understand the Bible before we get there. Kind of fill in the Mark picture for folks that don’t know you. Tell us a little bit about you. Tell us a little bit about the church.
Mark Clark — Yeah. Um, so like you said, uh, you know, founded a church in Vancouver in 2010. So I grew up in Toronto, um, and then moved across to Vancouver to do, uh, studies, actually. I was, I was going to be a youth pastor. I went to a school up in Toronto, uh, near you, did a bachelor’s degree, and then was going to be a youth pastor. And then God through a whole bunch of crazy circumstances got my heart, uh, jacked about like academics and and scholarship. And so I wanted to be a professor really. So I moved across to Vancouver to go to Regent College, which, you know, it’s a very internationally renowned school.
Rich Birch — That’s cool.
Mark Clark — You know, um J.I. Packer was there, you know ah Eugene Peterson taught there, Gordon Fee, all these great scholars. So I went over there and I and I said, I’m going to be here for two years and and then I’m going to go overseas, hopefully to Oxford or one of those schools, because they have connections with Regent. And I’m going to do a master’s thesis at Regent in Vancouver and then go overseas and do a PhD and become a professor and read footnotes for the rest of my life and it’ll be great to you know teach teach snotty nose students in college or something.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Mark Clark — And so on so that was the plan. And I moved to Vancouver I did my thesis on Romans 9-11 and spent you know a few years doing that and then God called me to stay in Vancouver, don’t go overseas don’t go to do a PhD and plant a church, start a church, reach people for Jesus, teach the Bible. And so that’s what we did. In 2010, we gathered about 16 people in my house. My church ah blessed us, gave us about 35 more people and said, and we moved 30 minutes away from the church that we were serving at at the time. And we planted our church and and and really, I mean, to the point of what you’re what we’re talking about today, really had this conviction that I didn’t need to choose between kind of seeker, you know…

Rich Birch — So true.

Mark Clark — …models of preaching where I could just do topicals every four weeks or six weeks or eight weeks and turn things around and, and… Or being an expositor, I could try to fuse both those worlds together every week.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Mark Clark — And, so you know, Keller talks about the idea of um ah preaching to the older brother and the younger brother in the prodigal son parable every week.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.
Mark Clark — You have the religious religious older brother who actually needs to hear the gospel and you have the secular, irreligious, progressive brother who needs to hear the gospel and ever and they’re both lost in different ways and you need they need to come to repentance.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — So I put that filter on my preaching every week.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Mark Clark — And I grew up as a skeptic, didn’t grow up as a Christian at all. I became a Christian when I was about 18 and did a lot of, you know, ah study – science, philosophy, psychology, history, literature. And so that drove a bunch of my preaching. So I almost started a church to go, yes, of course I’m going to preach the Bible, but I’m also going to constantly, and I guess we’ll get into this, constantly be talking to the skeptics.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — So anyway, started our church. did that and God just blessed it. And a ton of people got saved and we got to plant the campuses and all that. And it was is fantastic.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Mark Clark — So I did that for 12 years, 12 and a half years or so, and then felt God calling me and my family down here to California ah for a new adventure. And so we’ve been here for two and a half years and having a blast down here.
Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Friends, you should be following you should be following Mark. You should be following Bayside. ah So much good here. So the thing we’re talking about today is the thing that will not change this year is that the Bible will continue to need explanation. It needs preaching. You know It needs people to ah you know um a a friend of mine said you know that when you look at the book of Acts, the clearest point of life change is a preacher and a crowd. It’s someone standing in front of people explaining. You know, the majority of the 181 million people in the country who owned and opened a Bible last year find it confusing. Churches need to double down on making scripture scripture accessible and relevant to understand this life-changing truths that apply into our lives.
Rich Birch — I really want to dig into that with you today. And we could pick up right where you said there. I think there’s a false dichotomy out there that like grow, and this is true – we see this all the time. People think oh growing churches they’re watering down the bible.

Mark Clark — Sure.

Rich Birch — It’s all like you know it’s all just like how to have a better marriage kind of stuff. Talk to us about that your experience around those issues.
Mark Clark — That’s great. Yeah. Great question. And how to have a better marriage will grow your church as well.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Mark Clark — I remember actually we did a, uh, so what our philosophy was I would do like Bible stuff for, you know, so so I remember the story, the story, uh, I tell it conferences in order to help people feel, feel, uh, you know, like they can do this too – is when we started our church, everyone’s like, well, no one in Canada is going to want to hear a bunch of Bible preaching, whatever. And so make make sure you only do topical and yada, yada, yada.
Mark Clark — So we started our church and ah and I did a sermon series on the gospel of Matthew. And it took us three and a half years to preach through the gospel of Matthew.
Rich Birch — A quick series on Matthews, on Matthew.
Mark Clark — And amazingly, that series was called—are you ready for this? The gospel of Matthew.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Mark Clark — Oh, the creative…
Rich Birch — In secular Vancouver. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark — Yeah, exactly. It was like, yeah, we didn’t need any creative titles. We weren’t juggling balls and dee-dee-dee.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark — You know, we weren’t, it was like, here’s what we’re going to do. Secular Vancouver, three and a half years. The church grew during that time by, you know, whatever 2000 people and 700, actually more importantly, because you can get 700 people got baptized during that three and a half years.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.
Mark Clark — So, so, and I say all that just to say, to your point, you don’t have to choose, you can grow a church by preaching the Bible.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — And that’s what our foundation was. It was like, so we did a ah three and a half years of Matthew. We did a year and a half in, in 1 Corinthians, uh, probably nine months in Philippians. Um, you know, so, wait so basically if you just go to the website, you can just scroll down and look at, we did Ecclesiastes. It was basically just Bible books. But then of course. We would stop every once in a while and do like a topical, you know, a marriage series, I remember one fall. And we would leverage the fall. And I think that’s important. You know, you you know, there’s calendars, rhythms, don’t fight them…

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.

Mark Clark — …you know, roll with them. So everyone’s away in the summer. Don’t pull out your best stuff. But, you know, so we used to leverage, you know, after Easter and new year and and in Canada, ah first week of September down here, ah first two weeks of August, um the fall comeback, people come back to vacation.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — Do the handouts do the…

Rich Birch — It’s like a reset. Yeah.

Mark Clark — Yeah. Do the door knockers, give your people invite cards to a series that is felt needs enough that it’s like hey we’re gonna talk. So we used to do ah skeptic stuff. So we did a series um Where we would answer and this is what my first book grew out of preaching the series where it was like hey all the big skeptical questions: science, the Bible, hell…
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — …hypocrisy in the church – you know all that – evil and suffering. Hey, we’re gonna preach these. Here’s the weeks. Bring your friends if they have these questions and then it’ll launch into it. So we used to grow. You know I remember when we did a skeptic series, we grew one year by 900 people in one weekend. And I thought, well, that’s gonna be the biggest we ever grow in one weekend, which is crazy.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.
Mark Clark — Then we did a marriage one the next year. And I think we grew by 1200 people in a weekend.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark — And the crazy thing is, is then they stayed.
Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah, they didn’t leave.
Mark Clark — So so it was like, so so it wasn’t like we had this incremental growth where we grew by 1400 that year.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — We grew by it in one week. And then they just, that was the church now…

Rich Birch — Right. Yes.

Mark Clark — …which was, which obviously that’s that’s crazy. It’s not normal.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s wild.
Mark Clark — So don’t like beat yourself up if that’s not your experience.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Mark Clark — But um so those topical moments are important, of course.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — But then you come out of them and I would say 75 to 80% of our stuff was you know expository stuff, but with a caveat. Because some people hear that and they go, oh good, I can just get up and give my boring Bible sermons. And you know…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Mark Clark — …and you and you know those preachers, right?
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Read read through the concordance and you’ll be fine, you know, kind of thing.
Mark Clark — Exactly, yeah, I’m just gonna preach Isaiah. Mark told me I could preach Isaiah for three years and my church will grow…
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — …and not give any cultural commentary or illustrations or stories or be fun or whatever. It’s like, no, no, no, that’s not what I’m saying.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — I’m saying you got to tell, it’s a sin to make the Bible boring.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Mark Clark — You gotta take the Bible and now you gotta go, you gotta work hard to create those cultural connections to be…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Mark Clark — …to be as Keller would say, winsome and persuasive. You gotta constantly be engaging your audience now with a very low attention span.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Mark Clark — So the way I would do it is, you know, read a verse or two and then riff of how that verse connects to culture and gauge with, um you know, coming back to the skeptical hermeneutic of like…

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.

Mark Clark — …if I put the filter of a random guy who lives on my street or gal who lives on my street, who’s somewhat educated, who has a job, who didn’t grow up with Christianity and thinks all of this is a joke. And every sermon I put that filter on.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Mark Clark — And I said, if I’m going to preach this text, how do I explain everything I’m saying to them…

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — …in a winsome and persuasive way that will keep them engaged, get them laugh a little bit, have them understand what this means culturally. You got to be doing that every every three minutes, you got to be hitting something like that. You can’t just, well, I have my one illustration.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Mark Clark — I will start with a story and now I will just be boring for 35 minutes. You know, it’s like, no, no, no.

Rich Birch — That doesn’t work.
Mark Clark — That’s not what we’re talking about, right? Yeah. You got to come in and out, you know, of the tech.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good.
Mark Clark — Yeah. So.
Rich Birch — Yeah. I think, you know, I think a part of this has been, you know, I, unfortunately, I’m at that age in my ministry career where you you realize, Oh, I’ve been around for a while. And there has been a shift, I think in the people we’re reaching where I do think there was a time 30 years ago that, you know, there was like a general understanding of, of the Bible. There was more kind of understanding of the things we were talking about.
Mark Clark — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And, you know, we used to joke, um, ah we ain’t your mama’s church. We used to make that joke. That was the thing. Like we would actually say that, Hey, we ain’t your mama’s church. But the reality of it is like mom didn’t go to church. Grandma didn’t go to church now.

Mark Clark — Right.
Rich Birch — People are arriving at church with questions. They’re not, that’s been my experience that the people that are coming now that don’t normally attend church that show up, they’re coming with questions. They’re not saying, Hey, like, um, you know, can you please just entertain me for the next hour? They’re, they’re coming with like some pressing questions. You, you mentioned there this idea of working hard, that you got to work hard.
Rich Birch — I’d love to kind of peel the veil back a little bit and hear about your process. What’s that look like? How do you, you you know, prep a ah series, you know, individual message? How do you talk about that? If you’re sitting across from somebody who wants to improve what they do on that front?
Mark Clark — Yeah, great question. Yeah it’s great question. So when I get to meet with preachers and talk to them, one of the things that that historically when up when I’ve done seminars or whatever that really connects with people is I just kind of call out the fact that some of you, the reason you’re not… So so it’s good to great, right? Jim Collins. Most of you are going to settle to be good preachers versus great ones. The country of Canada needs great preachers. The country of America needs great preachers, not just good ones. And the only way to get there is through hard work. And most of you are not willing to do the work it’s going to take to become great. And usually that…
Rich Birch — Thanks for coming to the seminar.
Mark Clark — You know, exactly. But they they kind of laugh at themselves and then almost to the person they go, Man, you’re reading my mail bro. Like you are totally right.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.
Mark Clark — Because what it takes is sacrifice.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good.
Mark Clark — What it takes is for you, there’s this great um episode, you know, that coffee in cars with comedians or whatever that.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With Seinfeld. Yep.

Mark Clark — Yeah, in season, I think it’s season one, he he goes out for coffee with Kramer, you know, Michael Richards, the guy that played Kramer. And there’s this great little interaction that they have where Kramer, he’s talking about, hey, Kramer, I used to go into your, you know, cause we watched Seinfeld, we think Kramer’s just sliding in the door and making it up, right? But there’s a very technical thing that he was doing. And what he would do is he would sit in his dressing room like two inches from the wall, and he would practice all his lines all day. And Jerry says to him as they’re having coffee, he’s like, hey, I used to accidentally come into your room once in a while, and I would see you doing that.

Mark Clark — And and Michael says, oh really, ah you saw me doing that? That’s really weird. And then he says, the one regret, at Michael says, the one regret I have is that I feel like I didn’t enjoy the nineties because I was in a room just like slaving away at this process and this character.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — And Jerry looks at him and just like in a moment of inspiration, he says, no, no, no, it wasn’t your job to enjoy it. Your job was to do the sacrifice so the audience enjoyed it.
Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.
Mark Clark — And for me, that’s the message to preachers.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Mark Clark — It’s like, bro, if you’re, you know, if you’re 45 years old, here’s the sacrifice. You got a family, you got a life. So my process, to go to your question, um so usually for me, um I’ll do, for for a sermon in particular, a series is a bit different because we work with you know groups of people and say…

Rich Birch — Yeah, right.

Mark Clark — …what should we preach and come up with a series and design and production also. But for ah for a sermon in particular, I would go, let’s say the text is, you know, whatever, John 1, 1 to 3, right? So I would, I would sit with my, probably Thursday, sit with all my commentaries Thursday afternoon, you know meetings all week, and then Thursday afternoon, get some commentary reading. And usually look, I’m at home. My kids are running around. We’re talking. I got a commentary open on my lap at 9 PM with a pen and in a coffee, you know, whatever. Right. Um, so it’s all just part of life.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — Um, I’m constantly thinking of illustrations every moment of my life, every line I’m in, every car ride, every thing in life is an illustration.
Rich Birch — And are you gathering those somehow in a system? Are you like, do you write those out or notes on your phone?
Mark Clark — Just mostly in my head, but then I’ll throw it on a phone if I think, oh, I’m going to forget this. You know, I’ll just put it on my Apple.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — I’ll just be like, you know, you know, plane ride, flight attendant, book or whatever.
Rich Birch — Yeah, funny thing or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Clark — It’s just, okay, I know I know what the story is.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Mark Clark — And, um but, ah but you’re constantly, and you gotta be, you gotta be liberal with this. You have to be like, I know this event happened and it doesn’t directly connect to this, but I think with one or two sentences, I can make this connection.
Rich Birch —Make the connection. Yep. Yep. Yep.
Mark Clark — And make a funny moment here or make a profound moment here with the most mundane situation that happened in my life.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Mark Clark — so So for instance, this past weekend, I did Hebrews. Okay, great example. So Hebrews 12 verse one and two, for for the joy set before him, he endured the cross.
Mark Clark — Okay, so we can just say that.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — And just move on. But it’s like, okay, what is that? What do you mean? So so here’s a principle for Jesus. He can endure the cross because of the joy that was on the other side of the cross, i.e. providing salvation for us. We in life, can ah endure almost anything if there’s joy on the other side of it. Joy is one of the great drivers and motivating factors of our life.
Mark Clark — Okay, great, I can say that, but now I illustrated it in a story. I talked about getting up at three in the morning, taking my family on this thing, and and we exchanged, and we lost bags, and we the one’s puking, and there’s a flight attendant telling us, this there’s there’s just you know and I just kind of tell this funny story for two minutes…
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — …or three. um And it’s all these like, ah you know, all these a comedy of errors that are terrible. It’s awful.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — There’s suffering, there’s pain, but we could do it because we knew that once that flight landed, we were going to have nice sunshine for a week and we were going to spend time as a family.

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — So I could endure all this nonsense because of what, way anyway, point being, you’re looking for these mundane, things in life to become great illustrations…
Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.
Mark Clark — …for your people and have fun along the way. So one of the principles I say is, look, if you’re not a comedian, don’t tell jokes. Tell stories that are funny. Right?

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Mark Clark — Don’t like, right? Don’t tell a joke. A joke is, you know, it can be rough.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yes. Yep.
Mark Clark — But tell stories that are funny and be very self-deprecating. Don’t make yourself the but the hero of the story. You know, always beat up on yourself a little bit and and play the fool a little bit because people connect to that. So anyway, all that to say, um, Thursday commentaries, Friday commentaries, I’m writing it out. And usually what I do is by the end of Friday, I have a page uh, now it’s a Google doc.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — It used to be a word doc, but a Google doc. So I can sit on my phone anywhere or whatever. And I got a Google doc that probably equals, you know, eight, nine pages of, of words…
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — …where I’ve just like written sentences, paragraphs out, illustrations out, to some degree. So I can remember them, um, bolded through the manuscript. And then by Saturday, now it’s Saturday morning, it used to be Saturday night because ah now I preach Saturday night.

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — So Saturday morning, go out to my office and my family knows, man, we don’t see our dad all day Saturday and all day Sunday, right?
Rich Birch — Right. Those are work days. Yeah.
Mark Clark — Because Saturday, yeah, those are work days. So 9 a.m., I’m out in the office and I’m getting this nine pages down to four or five. I know every page is about 10 minutes. And I’m supposed to preach 35 minutes here, so it’s always stressful. But Saturday night…
Rich Birch — You always do. You have the best intentions.
Mark Clark — Exactly. Exactly. Yes.
Rich Birch — 35 minutes, best intentions.
Mark Clark — And you guys, you know, yeah Jeff, your pastor puts me on the clock too. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, I got this big clock ticking. And I’m like, I can’t do this. So, ah so I try to get that down to four or five pages. And then I will say for about 15 years of my life, I would, you know, would so back when I had Sunday services, that was all Saturday, I would say goodbye to my family at 5 p.m. And that’s the discipline.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Mark Clark — My family knew I was not around after 5 p.m. That means I’m not going to any ah friends birthday parties. My life, that is my life.

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — And then I would preach it out loud back then. I don’t do this now, but more pay attention to what I did do. I would preach out loud for three, four hours over and over.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Mark Clark — Every story, every turn of phrase, every sentence right in front of me and i’m memorizing it in my brain. So I don’t have to look at my notes. And i’m preaching it out loud.
Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah.
Mark Clark — So I’m hearing it and i’m hearing whether it’s interesting whether it’s not interesting. So I would do that till about midnight every Saturday night. Then I would sit in my bed and on my iPad and look at the notes with my pencil and color code it. Then wake up at 5 AM, go out to a parking lot, preach it again out loud for an hour with…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Mark Clark — …so I’m getting it all in my brain. Now this, now Rich we’re talking about, I’m doing this when I had 150 people at my church, not thousands, just 150.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes, yep.
Mark Clark — That’s, that’s the sacrifice, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah, but that that’s what I want people to pick up on though. Because I think there are folks, um like I have just such a high value on this part of what we do as a church. I’m not a I’m not a preacher, I’m not a communicator, but as a person in the seat that I sit in, the kind of executive pastor type seat, for years I I had a lead pastor I worked for, and he would say like, hey, what can I work on this week?
Rich Birch — And I would literally always say, I would be like, your message, like the thing that you can take time on. Then the rest of us will take care of everything else, but you’re the only person that’s going to be up there for those 40 minutes. And yet the picture of you preaching that out, that’s that’s that’s humbling. Because I don’t think lots of people do that kind of thing. they you know There’s a lot of phoning it in, we’re doing the first part, and then we’re just kind of winging it at the first service and punishing all those people.
Mark Clark — Yeah, it’s true.
Rich Birch — Right? I think that happens, unfortunately.
Mark Clark — And that, and that’s why, and that’s why I go back to what I say at the beginning. Most of you aren’t willing to do what I’m about to explain.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Mark Clark — And most of the room just sits there and goes, shoot, now that you’ve explained it, you’re right.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Mark Clark — Um, you know, and part of that came from, I was doing this in my mid twenties and then all the way through my thirties.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Mark Clark — And there was a, and there still is an obsessive, um, and it really is an obsession. It has to be, right?
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — Now it helps that I actually have a mental disorder called the OCD and Tourette’s that actually my brain does obsess.
Rich Birch — It’s your superpower.

Mark Clark — Yeah, exactly. literally obsess about every turn of phrase…

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — …and every every joke and every exegetical point and every illustration and everything is obsessed about, so that I can make as much eye contact as possible, so I can be as culturally connected and biblically sound as possible. All the things, um but I think a little bit more obsession to your point.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Mark Clark — …would be helpful if we realized that this 40 minutes of, as Carey, our colleague has pointed out many times that, you know, 80% of people go to a church because of the preaching. And um it’s like this 80 minutes, but but even more than that, I was watching, excuse me, I was watching someone preach the other day and what struck me, this really important was this was like, there was no urgency. in their preaching.
Rich Birch — Oh wow. What a crime.
Mark Clark — They were checking a box. And I guess this might come from someone who grew up outside of a church. When I preach, I have like a a fire in my bones…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Mark Clark — …that like this will be the last sermon every person in this room ever hears before they all die in a car accident between this Sunday and next Sunday.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Clark — They’re all dead and they’re all gonna face eternity. And I have to plead with them for 40 minutes at the at the tip of my toes with absolute urgency that they would come to Christ, they would treasure Christ above everything.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Mark Clark — And every Bible text is the most important Bible text. If you walked in and I was preaching Zephaniah 3, you would think I thought this was the most important Bible verse ever.
Rich Birch — Right. Right. Well, it’s funny you say that because recently you did a series, graciously did a series for our church and you were preaching at a table. They had you sitting at a table for this series and you had your Bible open in front of you. And I was making the joke behind your back. I’m like, it looks like he’s going to flip that table, like you are like you’re kind of you know it’s like the table is between me and our and our audience you know, which which loved.

Mark Clark — I want to get out. Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Birch — It was come let me at you, let me at you. It like it was like the table was the only thing that was holding you back…

Mark Clark — That’s funny. That’s funny. Yeah.

Rich Birch — …which i think is great so you know speaking to that one of the things I want to say this publicly, mark, I’ve watched you for years preach, and you continue to step up your game. Like I…
Mark Clark — Oh, thanks man.
Rich Birch — …there’s not a sense of like, Oh, here’s a guy who’s kind of hit his stride and he’s just like… I think very few people obviously at your level are phoning it in. That’s not true. Lots of people are they’re working hard, but like you seem to continue to polish too. And so what what has happened over the last, I don’t know, say five, 10 years in this kind of the most recent you know that you continue to kind of improve the process, what are you doing to kind of stay fresh and stay stay…

Mark Clark — Yeah, that’s great.

Rich Birch — Because i think it gets harder over time.

Mark Clark — Sure.

Rich Birch — As an observer on the outside I think the second decade and the third decade are much harder than the first, and the yeah like i think they get progressively harder to stay fresh.
Mark Clark — Yeah, that’s, good that’s a great point. Because like with anything, naturally, psychologically, when you’re not doing something fresh, uh, it gets stale. And so how do you keep [inaudible]?
Rich Birch — Right. Well, and we teach, we teach to a fixed text. Like we don’t want you to be creative. Like we, you, you, you’ve got to preach to the Bible. And so a guy like you every time, like you’ve taught it, you’ve taught on lots of scripture. And so it’s like, how do we keep that fresh? How do we have one more Christmas Eve message? Gosh, like how many times can we preach Easter? We love preaching Easter. Obviously this is insider. Obviously it’s the death and resurrection of Jesus, but like people know the punch line. People know what you’re going to talk about.

Mark Clark — Great, great point.

Rich Birch —And so how how are you keeping it fresh?
Mark Clark — Yeah. Great, great question. So I, um, this past Christmas Eve it’s interesting. Um, so we had 12 services and, and Ray’s like, like, how many do you want to do? And I was like, well, I’ll do nine, give somebody else some reps in front of a Christmas Eve audience, which down here is crazy. Uh, like literally probably 35,000 people just at this campus alone through those 12 services.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.
Mark Clark — And they come jacked up. They come, they bring their friends. Like it’s a I mean, Canada has a little bit of this, but definitely more in America…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Mark Clark — …with the whole Christmas Eve, Easter, everyone shows up and brings everybody. So so there’s like this, to your point, I’ve I’ve now done Christmas Eve for 20 years of my life, literally. And down here, done it three years in a row. And it’s seen as like a really big deal, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — Like this is Christmas Eve, this is a super bowl of of preaching.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — and Ray’s point backstage after he heard my first ah sermon. And you’re always tweaking, you got nine chances at it, so you’re gonna mess them around with it. He’s just like, what what’s really encouraging is like, this is your third year here, and everything you said was super fresh, and like, there was no going back to the barrel or whatever.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s fantastic.
Mark Clark — So but that, to your point, takes a lot of hard work.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Mark Clark — I can tell you, I felt the pressure, and feel I feel the pressure of the Christmas Eve service, maybe more than any sermon all year. It’s just such a staple here.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — They put in so much time and energy and effort.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — And they do this, ah which we didn’t do. I mean, this is very interesting. We didn’t do a lot of raise your hand to come to Christ at Village. Our our thing was like, hey, we I would constantly give people an opportunity to come to Christ. But um baptism was almost seen philosophically, methodologically as like, this is the raising of the hand. It’s like, hey, if you’ve come to Christ every two months, we’re gonna do a baptism. And if you’re a Christian, this is your public, you know thing. But here, they do a lot of like, hey, I’m gonna give you an opportunity to raise your hand. And I just don’t have a ton of experience in it. So I work really hard at like trying to figure out the mechanics of that and all that. But every Christmas Eve service, you get people to raise their hand, to accept Christ, we pray for them.
Rich Birch — It’s amazing.
Mark Clark — And it’s beautiful. And all these hands go up and then all these candles. It’s a really powerful thing. But again anyway, to your point, I got um I start writing I start taking notes for a Christmas Eve sermon, Rich, probably I remember I think there’s probably a Google doc where I started taking illustrations in August.

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah. It’s kind of constantly in the background.

I was like I was like oh this is I don’t want to waste this for a normal weekend. This is so good, I’m gonna wait.
Rich Birch — Yes. I’m keeping that bullet in the holster.

Mark Clark — Yes.

Rich Birch — We’re not firing that one. Yeah.
Mark Clark — No one’s going to hear this story until until Christmas Eve.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.

Mark Clark — And so you pile a bunch of those up and then, you know, you’re you know um one of the things your audience could do if they want is they could go find the Christmas Eve maybe in your show notes or whatever.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — Find the Christmas Eve sermon I preached at Bayside this past weekend…

Rich Birch — We’ll do that. We’ll link to that.

Mark Clark — …because you’ll see a lot of the mechanics of like I’m not letting as, as Ray kind of says, he goes, you know, in most communicators, there’s like dead space. And then there’s live space. And he’s like, that was just 30 minutes of live space.

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — There was no lull, like there’s constant, you’re just boom, boom, boom.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes.
Mark Clark — Every, every 30 seconds, there’s a thing. There’s a it’s almost like, this is probably a bad illustration. I just thought of it. So you can delete this. It’s almost like when you watch, um, Have you ever seen Deadpool and Wolverine in that movie? Well, you don’t have to admit this, but anyways, there’s there’s ah there’s a movie hypothetically called Deadpool and Wolverine.
Rich Birch — Yes, hypothetically.
Mark Clark — That is, it’s very dirty and there’s a lot of, f-bombs, but the the thing about it is when I watched it with a crowd, there’s a laugh and something’s happening where you’re reacting like every 30 seconds.
Rich Birch — Right, yes. Yes.
Mark Clark — There’s like a boom and then a boom and then a boom.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Mark Clark — It was like, it’s just two straight hours of every 30 seconds of something.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Mark Clark — And anyway, Christmas Eve service feel felt like that.

Rich Birch — Had that feel to it, yeah.

Mark Clark — Yeah. So anyway, so, but to your point, that takes a lot of work.

Rich Birch — That’s good. With less f-bombs, hopefully, a few less.

Mark Clark — Less F-bombs. Yes. Yes. Most most it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s good.

Mark Clark — It takes a lot of work, a lot of effort, a lot of practice, a lot of out loud, a lot of, you know, even for that one, which I rarely do anymore, but I would say this is a good, I actually ran it through with my wife. I didn’t preach it to her, but I went, I’m going to do this. Then I’m going to do this. Then I’m going to do this. Then I go, what do you think? How should I move that around? And I was doing that right up until the final sermon.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — You know, the, the, the ninth one.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — I was still fiddling with order…

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — …and cut that and move that over there. And that’s boring and you know, whatever. So anyway, all that to say, keeping it lively, keeping the urgency, um, making sure you illustrate, I mean, just, just really quick – making sure you’re illustrating enough. Oftentimes what I find is in a 40 minute sermon, what I would do is add three or four more illustrations to most sermons that I hear, mostly when I’m like what I’m helping mentor people, I’m like, listen, you need more illustrations in this sermon.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Mark Clark — It doesn’t mean they need to be 18 minutes long.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — That’s not what I mean.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — And I don’t mean…
Rich Birch — Two, three minutes on this, move on. Two, three minutes on that, that kind of thing.
Mark Clark — Yeah, or even 30 seconds.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Mark Clark — You know, a quick like, hey, this situation happened with my daughter the other day and it’s, and then a boom. This is how it has to do with the gospel and the text that we’re talking about.

Rich Birch — No, that’s good. That’s good.

Mark Clark — You know, just let it, yeah, let it naturally flow out of the text. Um, and, and not it be like, uh, as some communicators, it’s like, what is he telling the story for? I don’t, what does this have to do with anything?
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, you’re right. Yeah, it’s a long story to get to a short point, right? Like it’s yeah. Yeah.
Mark Clark — Yeah, which I’ve been guilty of as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah.
Mark Clark — But it’s like, make your, make your points come out of the text, make them pointed, make them fun. But, but you can you can do a bunch of 20, 30 second illustrations throughout too.
Rich Birch —Sprinkle those in you.
Mark Clark — You don’t need to feel like I’m going back to the classic, like in World War II, General Patton said to the people…

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Mark Clark — …you know make come make it come out of your own life too.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So kind of one other I’d love to explore just as we’re kind of looking to land the plane. But so think of a church of maybe 1500 people. We’ve got a lot of executive pastor types that listen in. And I have said in my coaching, my conversations with those folks, I’ve been like, listen, a part of our job as an executive pastor is to create space in the lead pastor’s life so that they can do that part well. Like they we need to take stuff off their plate. We need to do things so that they’re not you know they’ve got the space to do this. What would your coaching be to the staff teams that are supporting lead pastors or communicators? How can we help you ah do your thing well? How can we…

Mark Clark — Great question.
Rich Birch — You quoted that stat, 83% of the reason why people attend church is because of the preaching. And I’ll say that to staff leaders, I’ll be like, listen, You think what that means. 83% of the reason why people show up is because of those 35, 40 minutes. The rest of us are the other 17%.
Mark Clark — Yeah, that’s great.

Rich Birch — So we’ve got to do what we can to try to create space for that. What would your advice be? What what would you say to try to help encourage? What what what could we do to support teaching guys well?

Mark Clark —Yeah, that’s a great, great question. It’s it’s really hard because what I wanna say is making sure that you’re giving honest feedback ah about the quality. Um, because obviously quality is, is, is key. Content is number one, but content needs to be heard. So quality is how content is heard. um But what’s really hard about it is it’s so personal that it’s really hard for a staff member who in the power dynamic…

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — …you know, like I always tell lead pastors and senior pastors, I’m like, everyone laughs at your jokes, but it’s because they’re paid to, you know. Nobody…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s kind of true.

Mark Clark — …nobody, yeah it’s like, if you think all these staff are your friends, you know they they think you’re the greatest thing. It’s like, dude, they you pay them to to not tell you you’re not funny or whatever, you know.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mark Clark — So there’s a power dynamic that’s really hard when it comes to like… I was actually, Adam Grant, you know, Adam Grant, of course, I saw this great clip from Adam Grant the other day. I don’t know if you’ve heard it, but he talks about, I forget his phrase. It was actually genius. He talks about when you’re in a room and ideas are being thrown around, um, about what you should do. Like, hey should we do this? Should we do that? The problem is, uh, what, did what did he call it? He called it like the HP something. It was basically the dynamic of the highest per paid person, HPP or something.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yes.
Mark Clark — Is this a normal, you know this?
Rich Birch — Yes. It is HPP. No, no. He, this is, he has talked about this. Yeah.
Mark Clark — Yeah. So HPP, I think. I’m just remembering this.

Rich Birch — Their opinion matters the most on whatever you’re talking about.

Mark Clark — The highest paid person in the room always sways.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — And and that’s just a normal sociological dynamic.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Mark Clark — The question is, is that actually the best play?
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Mark Clark — Or is it just, well, the highest paid person has said it, so now we’re all just gonna do it, you know? So in that vein, it’s really hard to look at your lead pastor and go, look, bro, or sis, that sermon was like a 5 out of 10. Like you could you could do it better.
Rich Birch — Yeah, you’re phoning it in.
Mark Clark — Or yeah, or phoning it in or, Hey, I know you really gave that thing a shot. That was not great. And I think you have eights and nines in you, but you have constantly been delivering fives and sixes. I think we can grow our church. If you, if the quality got better. I don’t know what kind of relationship you have with your communicator to be able to do that. I think if you can, that would be super helpful to them.
Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.
Mark Clark — Now it might not be in a, it it shouldn’t probably be in a room full of people.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Mark Clark — Because a sermon is very…
Rich Birch — Like around the water cooler when everybody’s listening in, probably not the time to do that.
Mark Clark — Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s like, man, I just been, I’ve been listening. I think you could, you don’t want me to help. You want me to, you know, is is there, a is there a room? Do you want to strike a room to help you with content? Like there might be some private conversations, or cause they might be feeling stuck.
Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — Like, Hey, I’m not passionate about this anymore. I don’t feel like I have great content. Like, I don’t know where to get good. What, you know, whatever. So that would be super helpful. Um, if you think they can do better. But if they’re already killing it and it’s just like, you feel like, you know, that maybe, yeah, just some conversations around, Hey, what can I take off your plate to free up your time?
Rich Birch — Right. Is there more stuff that free up yet? That’s good.
Mark Clark — Yeah, to almost justify their time on it. Like you said, like telling them, cause sometimes they feel bad.

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — Sometimes they feel like, oh, I shouldn’t be sitting here for 15 hours working on a sermon in the office or whatever.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Mark Clark — And it’s like, no, no, that’s literally what we pay you to do.
Rich Birch — Yes, a hundred percent.
Mark Clark — Like we’re all going to be better paid if you do your job well, we’re going to have more money, more people, more ministry. Do your like, kill it. Go in your office for 15 hours. We don’t care.
Rich Birch — Yeah. A hundred percent. Well, and that, yeah, that that’s been my experience more that more lots of communicators, they under they ironically undervalue what they do in their mind…

Mark Clark — Yes.

Rich Birch — …more than they should. Like I’m like, no, no, it’s like critically important. Like it’s not.
Mark Clark — Yes.
Rich Birch — And and particularly, even if you’ve got some gifting in this, where you can, you know, hey, I can I can pull a two hour prep and get up and and, you know, I can hit a base hit, I can get on second…

Mark Clark — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …kind of thing, then there can be this like, well, I’m just going to keep it, you know, I’m just going to keep hitting base hits. And it’s like, well, what would it take for us to give you more room so that you could knock it out of the part every single week?
Mark Clark — Yes. That’s great.
Rich Birch — Because it’s critically important.

Mark Clark — Love that.

Rich Birch — Like, I think that it’s not like a secondary piece of the puzzle. Well, it just as we’re coming to land. I want to make sure people are tracking with you. So first what I want to do is point them to your podcast. Tell us about the podcast. We’ll link to it. Because I think this would be really practical. I’m sure there’s people that are listening in that are like, Oh, I need to stew on this a little bit more. Tell us a little bit about your podcast.

Mark Clark — Yeah, so it’s called the Mark Clark podcast, again ah very very ah creative, took us a long time to come up with that.
Rich Birch — Creative genius. Yeah.
Mark Clark — Yeah. And basically what it is is it’s my sermons every week. So so I’m I’m you know I’m not like you where I’m I’m a disciplined person that gets to sit down and have a lot of conversations with great people. I just I’m just so all over the place. I can’t get myself disciplined up.

Mark Clark — So and what we came up with was what let’s take certain, I mean you’re preaching every week anyway. You have this 10 years of sermons that are online probably.
Rich Birch — Right. Yep.
Mark Clark — So let’s grab some stuff and start. So what we do is we post a sermon every week. I think it’s Thursday morning with a little intro from me, but it could be a sermon from five years ago. It could be something I preached three weeks ago and it’s, you know, packaged in, in series usually. So it’ll be like, if we did a sermon on the Mount, we did a sermon on the Mount series here at Bayside last summer. And it was probably 20 weeks, but I preached, let’s say six or seven of them at the main campus. We’ll just take that. We’ll say this is Mark’s, you know, Sermon on the Mount series, you know, so six weeks in a row, you’ll get a sermon on the Mount sermon.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Mark Clark — So they’re basically, it’s just me preaching sermons on stuff. And you’ll be able to see all what we’re talking about, the mechanics of going from the text to the illustrations and all the stuff we talked about every single week and hopefully be helpful for you with biblical content too.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s, it’s, again, I would highly recommend that. I think it’s a great listen. I think it’s great, obviously, on two levels. It’s great teaching. But also, I think for communicators, it’s good to listen in and be like, okay, here’s, here’s a guy who, you know, has a proven track record is making a difference is is just doing all kinds of great stuff. I think that would be helpful for you.

Rich Birch — Also, you’ve you’ve written, which we haven’t even really got into, you’ve written a number of just really compelling books that I found ah you know personally so helpful…

Mark Clark — Oh, thanks.

Rich Birch — …and you know we found so helpful at our church. But you’ve got a book coming out here that’s coming up called “The Problem of Life”. Tell us a little bit about that and where can we send people to make sure they they pick up copies of that.
Mark Clark — Yes, so, um so a couple years ago I wrote, as I mentioned earlier I wrote, “The Problem of God”, which was like a skeptics um book. You know, top 10 questions that skeptics ask about Christianity and the challenges and all that. Then I wrote “The Problem of Jesus”, which is, you know, basically everything I’ve learned about Jesus and discipleship and, you know, the gospels and all this stuff.
Mark Clark — And ah now “The Problem of Life” kind of rounds off the [inaudible]. You know, there’s this great there’s this great quote um by opening, you know, Calvin’s institutes, one of the great, you know, they say maybe the greatest the greatest treatise on theology ever written. And the opening line is basically, we we need to find two things. We need to find the knowledge of God and the knowledge of ourselves. So the way that what this book is, is it’s the second one. It’s like a whole book about ourselves. What does it mean to be a human being?

Rich Birch — Right.
Mark Clark — What does it what what is this longing in us um for something more than the brokenness of our world? How do we deal with suffering? How do we deal with joy? How to find joy, meaning, purpose in a disenchanted world is actually the subtitle.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Mark Clark — And so it’s this this idea that like we need to be fusing our our life can just be normal, mundane, we get up, we have marriage, we raise kids, we go to work, blah. Or we’re part of a big epic story and all of this has meaning and purpose and value. And so it goes through um everything about the the human experience.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Mark Clark — From from life to death, the question of eternity, the question of soul, question of suffering, ah purpose, meaning, all this stuff. So um it comes out ah February 18 and people can pre-order it right now on Amazon. Really excited about it. So.
Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, that’s great. we’ll like We’ll link to that in the show notes, but I’d strongly encourage, you know, pick up copy. This could be the kind of thing you do with your staff team. Hey, let’s read through this together.
Mark Clark — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Could be a good framing for a series down the road. Maybe you buy a bunch of books and give them away to people, that sort of thing. I would ah highly recommend that you, uh, you check that out again. That’s “The Problem of Life”.
Mark Clark — Yes.
Rich Birch — And it comes out here in a couple of weeks. So we’d love for you to pick up copies of that. Well, Mark, I appreciate you brother. Thank you for being here today.
Mark Clark — Appreciate you. Yeah.
Rich Birch — If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Mark Clark — Probably Instagram mark_clark, um, is where I post most things. And then obviously Facebook and then Bayside church, um, the, the podcast, the sermon, the YouTube. It’s, it’s a great church doing a lot of great things and 2025 is going to be awesome. So we’ve got a lot of cool creative stuff coming out of the pike.
Rich Birch — Thanks, Mark. Appreciate your brother. Have a good day.
Mark Clark — Thank you, sir. Thank you for what you do too. Thanks, Rich.
Rich Birch — Take care.

**Repurpose, Reach, Renew: Unleashing AI for Your Church’s Mission with Kenny Jahng** Jan 22, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re learning from **Kenny Jahng**, founder of **Big Click Syndicate** and **AI for Church Leaders**, and Editor in Chief of **Church Tech Today**. We’re talking about how *the world will be smaller*.

What can churches do to better engage their online visitors and encourage people to take next steps with Jesus? How can technology, particularly AI, play a role in enhancing church communication and furthering the spread of the gospel? Tune in to learn how AI can be used to repurpose your sermons into content across multiple platforms and effectively reach wider audiences.

**A new tool for the gospel.** // Church leaders need a theology of AI for the church in order to consider how it can best be used to advance the gospel. One of the core questions Kenny believes church leaders should weigh is if can God use digital tools for His glory. Just like Roman roads were “new technology” used by the early church to spread the gospel, we can use today’s technology to do the same. If you believe that God can use AI to serve the mission of the church, then it opens up a new sandbox to play in and offers endless possibilities.

**AI is perfect for translation.** // Generative AI, the latest evolution in artificial intelligence, not only processes data but creates new content. This includes generating text, audio, video, and images—capabilities that can be used for church communication. This technology can replicate a pastor’s voice in different languages, providing a more authentic experience for audiences around the world without the need for constant re-recording. Global ministries and missionary organizations can also use AI to translate the Bible into heart languages to increase the spread of the gospel.

**Use AI to expand your reach.** // We live in a YouTube world where the average video is viewed for about four minutes. Would someone get to anything meaningful, material, or significant in that first four minutes of your sermon before they abandon it? We now have tools that will identify the key points of our sermon videos and repurpose them into short pieces. AI can help churches engage their local communities by repurposing sermon content into bite-sized pieces for social media, blog posts and more. This approach allows churches to reach people who may not have time to watch a full sermon but can engage with shorter, more digestible content.

**Train staff and volunteers to use AI.** // AI tools like Sermon Shots can automatically generate short-form shareable media, making it easier for churches to maintain an active online presence without overwhelming their staff. Encourage your team to brainstorm and implement new ideas for online engagement. Invest time and resources into exploring AI and other technologies that can enhance your communication strategies. Training volunteers to help with AI-driven tasks is also a way to activate more volunteers in your ministries.

**AI can help answer FAQs.** // There are people who are watching your videos and have questions. AI excels at transforming sermons into FAQs, glossaries, discussion questions, and more to maximize your outreach and better serve your audience.

**Use AI to reach more people through your website.** // Many people don’t think of the church website as being a place of ministry, but rather as a directional sign that tells visitors where to go. View your website as a platform to actually engage and influence people in their quest to learn about Jesus and a biblical worldview.

**Repurpose your sermon.** // Kenny offers a website for church leaders at www.repurposeyoursermon.com which provides practical guidance on using AI to maximize the impact of sermon content. It takes your sermon and walks through a dozen different ways to create devotionals, sermon clips, quote images, and more.

Visit repurposeyoursermon.com to discover how to transform your sermons into multi-channel content and increase your reach. You can also find Kenny on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Plus, don’t forget to download the unPredictions Team Playbook for this podcast episode.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Man, I am so glad that you are fired up and here to be here today. You’ve caught us in the middle of these Unprediction episodes where we’re looking at things that were true last year, are going to be true this year and are going to be true next year. I’ve got my friend Kenny Jahng on and today we’re talking about the fact that this year, the world will be smaller than it was last year as global connections grow, leveraging technology for communication and learning. It’s just going to continue to be critical in our mission. Churches, you and I should aim to develop global relationships and share their ministry more widely.
Rich Birch — If you do not know Kenny Jahng, what rock have you been living under? He’s a certified StoryBrand copywriter guide, the founder of Big Click Syndicate, a strategic marketing advisory firm that really helps Christian leaders build marketing engines that work. In addition, Kennedy well, I’ve made you a Kennedy. Kenny is the editor of chief of also of a Church Tech Today and is the founder of AI for Church Leaders. Plus he’s a friend of mine. Kenny, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.
Kenny Jahng — You make me sound like a really busy person Rich.
Rich Birch — You are, what are you talking about? You’re so busy. I love it. Kenny is like, you know, I don’t know how many segments of trips you did last year, but you definitely did more than mine. We’re always on the plane, going places. Fill out the picture, kind of tell us a little bit more about Kenny. And then we’re going to jump into this conversation.
Kenny Jahng — Absolutely. I guess someone called me a ministry entrepreneur recently and I think ah that kind of fits the bill.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Kenny Jahng — I basically have been able to identify problems that I see that are solvable and a little bit arrogant enough to think that I can make a dent in that problem. And so um I’ve you know basically have a bunch of different ventures helping church leaders ah resource, whether through conferences or through um resources like ah courses or templates and workshops and books and stuff like that. So there’s all these things that I’m trying to do to basically empower the church leader to have much more impact wherever they are.

Rich Birch — Love it. Well, in my mind, one of the hats you wear is the Bishop of AI as a mutual friend has called you. You’re the guy that, now the good thing is like, you and I, we’ve known each other for whatever 15 plus years.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And you’re always the guy who I think of like, I wonder if there’s an app that does this, or I wonder if there’s a website that does this. Kenny is the guy who knows that. And that over the last couple of years, really since ChatGPT came out, has ah really blossomed into this incredible, you’re just an expert on this whole area of artificial intelligence. And so I want to leverage that today for this whole idea of communication. And okay, how how can we leverage these tools to kind of communicate better?
Rich Birch — I’m a firm believer, I’m pro-tech. Listen, I think when I look at the New Testament, um are you know the writers of the day, Paul used the technology of his day, which was the Roman roads and the Greek language to spread the message of Jesus. We want to be doing the same thing today. Challenge us. What should we be thinking about when you think of this idea of leveraging you know AI for communication, particularly with a global bent? Tell us what we should be thinking about these days.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, AI is a tool. It’s not gonna necessarily come take you, your job away immediately. um You know, I like to say it’s taken my job, but to a whole nother level.

Rich Birch — Oh, I love it.
Kenny Jahng — And I think this is one of those things where um we need a theology of AI for the church. And I’m working on a book and some other resources around that. Because I’m trying to explore the questions that actually determine how do you get to a point of understanding how we should best use AI for the gospel?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Kenny Jahng — And one of the core concepts or core ideas, I think, Rich, is this, if you look at the Toyota 5Ys, you know that process where you’re asking, why do you believe this? And then why do you believe that? And you get down to it five levels deep.
Kenny Jahng — I think the question that church leaders need to answer for themselves is, do you believe that there actually could be any divinity in the digital tools that we have in front of us today? Do you think God could use digital tools for His good and for His glory? And if the answer is no, then we must compartmentalize it, we must block it, we need to shut it down, etc. And for those that are um against AI um immediately, I would say then, let’s you know let’s call you out and say then, are you consistent?
Kenny Jahng — So are you using the internet? Are you using smartphones? Are you using GPS? Because if AI is evil and it’s not of of God, then so is all this other technology that we have that’s pervasive all over.

Kenny Jahng — And so that fundamental question is the first place, square one, we have to go, Rich. And then after that, um if you were able to say, yes, God could use it to redeem our world, we could use it to become um much more impactful heralds of the gospel…

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it.

Kenny Jahng — …then it just opens up this play, you know, sandbox that we can play in. And it’s just an amazing world together.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love what *The Economist* said, the newspaper, they talked about, I love their definition of AI. They said, AI is the label we give advanced technologies when we don’t understand them. And ah eventually what will happen is once you start to understand their use, their functionality, we stop using that term. So like in a very real way, I still remember, this is years ago, 15 years ago, I remember auto-complete on Google search…

Kenny Jahng — Yes.

Rich Birch — …like where you would go and you would start typing and then it went And I remember my mind being blown away. I was like, oh my goodness. What is happening? Like what is this thing? This is ridiculous. That was a form of AI that literally is a forum of the very actually very close to what what ChatGPT is doing today. It’s it’s a taking information and extending it. But there’s a specific kind of AI, generative AI. Can you define that for us, maybe for church leaders that have heard that before? What does that mean, generative AI?
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, generative AI. So again, you’re right. AI has been around for decades in different forms. This latest flavor genre called generative AI hit the media by storm when ChatGPT was launched in November 22. And the difference between all the other stuff and this stuff is it is now able to actually create, generate, create new things. So the old AI, the stuff that we’ve known AI historically, um IBM Watson being able to play chess against the chess grandmasters. I think of it as like these this brainiac computer that the old AI just does computations, large amounts of massive data computations in the brain.
Kenny Jahng — Generative AI is to do that and then actually create new outputs. And so we are in a world, if you want to be a little bit nerdy, Rich, you’re hearing the term multimodal AI right now, which only means it can talk about text, audio, video, um images, both inputs and outputs. It’s able to converse across all of that now. And so this is the wild, wild west because AI is now creating brand new things. It’s actually generating new content.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I saw a study recently that said 11% of American workers you a use AI on a daily or use AI on a daily basis, which I thought was amazing, 11%. 40% do on a weekly basis. This is clearly a trend that were you know is happening all around us.

Rich Birch — Let’s get kind of practical here. What would be a use case particularly on the communication side, maybe a tool that we could be thinking about and a way that our churches, either a way that maybe you’ve seen a church or you kind of wanna poke us towards, hey, we should be thinking about maybe using a tool like this this way.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, there’s very um funds novel things that we could use AI for. There’s some practical productivity stuff. I think that if you’re talking future forward, um things that really do have a massive impact is translation. AI is perfect for translation.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Kenny Jahng — So one of the reasons why AI has taken the world by storm is because um it is relevant to every single language because it understands every single language.

Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kenny Jahng — It’s relevant to every single industry because it’s pretty much read every single book under the sun, every single webpage out there.

Kenny Jahng — And so language is just one of those things that it’s completely conversant in and allows you to translate not just text, not just audio, but now video. You’re able to actually take a video, say, let’s say your sermon, um speaking in one language, it could translate it and clone your voice and clone your video of yourself and lip sync you to that new translated audio, even though you don’t speak that other language. And so once you start to see that technology in action, your creative mind just starts to expand of how you can use that in so many different practical applications.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love this. When this, when we first started to see this being used, there was like a real negative backlash against these kind of, what was that term that kept getting kicked around? There was like the, you know, what was it? Fake deep fakes, you know, like, oh, this is a deep fake or whatever.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And oh, that’s, this is going to take over the, you know, world and be super negative. But there are some positive use cases for translated video like this. What would be an example or two that you’ve seen? And then I’ve got a couple I can think of as well.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, so um but I’ll give you two. One is I’ve worked with some organizations that are missionary organizations that are basically translating the Bible into the heart language of hundreds of other languages around the world, right? The gospel needs to actually reach um all the ends of the earth. Um, they’re doing that on video where there’s a person who’s actually speaking and they’ll, you know, is translating the video.
Kenny Jahng — But the problem with that methodology is in five, 10 years, my hairstyle, my clothes goes out of style. And so if you’re trying to reach unbelievers in a secular culture, um, that matters. And so they have to invest in rerecording reading the entire Bible in multiple languages over and over. You can just imagine the expense for that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, the complexity of that.
Kenny Jahng — Now with AI, you can completely do that um in an instance and update their clothes up that they look, etc. And then here’s the super thing that I think who can argue against this using AI for translation when you put that into countries where there’s security and sensitive issues when Christians are being persecuted. You don’t want to put a human being on camera.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kenny Jahng — Well now you can actually use the voice and cloning um and translation.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Kenny Jahng — But you know you basically keeps someone safe. ah So that’s the first case. The second case…
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s powerful. I love that. I know we had our friends from The Chosen, ah the foundation that’s behind The Chosen, and they’re using AI in that exact case…
Kenny Jahng — Yes.
Rich Birch — …where they’re translating that. I think the most translated television show of all time is Baywatch, which believe it or not, it’s like 50, isn’t that funny? 50 some odd, you know, translations. But they’re aiming for like 120 translations. So like way more than the most.
Kenny Jahng — Wow.
Rich Birch — And they’re closing the gap using AI that they’re, you know, they’re, they’re taking, literally taking their raw video content, dumping it into generative AI, and then having it produce entire episodes of The Chosen in multiple languages ah for exactly the reason that you’re saying there. That’s that’s so cool.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, I I think that’s powerful. And like for all the opponents of AI, I dare you to call me up and let’s have a discussion about that. How can you argue against using AI for that type of use?
Rich Birch — Yes. Right.
Kenny Jahng — The other one is every or most churches have some sort of ministry for missions, oversee missions.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Kenny Jahng — And so, for example, my church, um you know, has a long-standing over a decade, I think, relationship with a ministry locally in Guatemala. My previous church had one in Dominican Republic. Imagine, um as you build the relationships over the years, and they know the pastor, and they have this relationship, imagine now um instead of having translation issues or having to have a translator present whenever you’re there, that you can actually translate your sermons into their native tongue and then send those videos.
Rich Birch — Amazing.
Kenny Jahng — And now you’re able to actually start to disciples of them in a much more meaningful way than just a periodic trip once, twice a year, um that you can actually send them materials and resources that are translated that completely um is able to be received very well by the people overseas. So um I think that’s just another um interesting way that translation could work in our favor and takes very, very little time, very low cost, and it’s accessible to every single church that’s listening here today.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s crazy like that, ah you know, that’s and that’s a great example, great use case and relatively simple to do. um We were talking beforehand, you know, I used a tool called Hey Gen, which I think you put me on to probably. I’ll credit you if you didn’t anyways. Which is, ah you know, the ah ah low cost, does exactly what we’re talking about here. And I’ve done it where I’ve made, I made a video, I don’t know, six months ago and posted it on Instagram where I translated myself into multiple languages. And it’s fun to hear yourself speak Russian and, you know, whatever, you know, Cantonese and different languages. ah But I did the reverse. I took ah a speaker, a French speaker and translated into English because I wanted to hear what does that sound like?
Kenny Jahng — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And I was blown away with how good the translation was. Like It was like, oh, wow. Like it it the accent was great. It was easy to understand. Man, that opens up all kinds of opportunities. And I think there’s something about when we know that it’s happening, I’m willing to adopt that technology like as a viewer. Like if I know if I’m not if someone’s not trying to trick me and they’re you know in this case the case you’ve just given like hey you know this pastor, you know they don’t speak Spanish or you know whatever language you’re speaking in the you know the location. But we’ve got another way to try to make it accessible to you. I think there’ll be high levels of adoption there.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, absolutely. And if you look at the demographic trends in all the major metro areas and even the smaller ones in this country, you are seeing that um many, many communities, most communities are turning much more multi-ethnic, multi-lingual.
Rich Birch — Oh, a hundred percent. Yes.
Kenny Jahng — And so um I think it’s going to be an even more pressing need. If your church is serious about reaching your own zip code, you’re going to need to start to think about the populations that don’t that are not native English speakers, at least here in America.

Rich Birch — Yeah. A hundred percent.
Kenny Jahng — And how do you serve them? How do you bring them in? How do you actually present the gospel to them in a way that is much more receptive um so that you can get more decisions for Christ and baptisms and all all the other things that we are trying to do in our call and ministry.
Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. And we’ve done that for years with human translators. This scales that up faster. And I would argue in a more compelling manner, like it’s compelling to watch this content. um you know it doesn’t the lip sync is better, you know all that stuff. They’ve solved some of the technical problems with you know with this kind of translation. I literally was talking to a church leader last week that was asking this exact question. They’re saying, hmm, I wonder if we should be thinking about Portuguese, French… um and I can’t remember what the third language was, you know, launching some sort of experience that translates that isn’t trying to hide the fact that it’s an English speaker, but it’s translating this. That’s that’s great. What other ways? So go ahead.
Kenny Jahng — So here’s here’s the translation tool I want, Rich. It’s the English to English tool. And I wanted to take my message. So it’s going to take my message, whatever I i give as a presentation or talk, and then it’s going to transcribe the ChatGPT. And then ChatGPT is going to make it much more logical, much more clear, much more compelling, and then make me say it in the video. So that’s a better version of me. How about that?
Rich Birch — Yes, a snappier version. Take put the look put the the Tim Lucas filter on. How do I say this? I’d have to say it louder. You know and and there and there’d have to be spaghetti or some sort of prop every time.

Kenny Jahng — Yes.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I love that. That’s that’s so good. Well what about so I love this idea. Even when you got me thinking there when you said that too was you know, international partners, you know, all struggle in another language. You know, I might only know five words in Spanish, but like I have a relationship with these people. We’ve been you know there are a bunch of times. And like and when we’re when we’re on site, all struggle through and we’ll like all use Google Translate…

Kenny Jahng — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and like try to have a conversation. It’s wooden. But it does feel like there’s some sort of relationship there. Another thing we could do is like when we’re on, you know, yeah oftentimes those in those environments, they’ll like want to shoot a video to say something back to the church instead of like putting, you know, subtitles on that, we could take that video and very low cost, like, you know, less than the definitely less than the cost of the, you know, a coffee at the airport. We could translate that and show that to the people at our church back home. Man, that would be powerful, a powerful way to use that kind of technology. I love that. So good.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, and i’m I’m looking waiting for the future, right? We we talk about innovation right now in dog years, right? And in given 365 days a year…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Kenny Jahng — …we’re seeing seven leap frogs in the innovation right now. And um just like I don’t know if you know, there’s a Google Translate app where you can hold it up as ah your camera and it will translate in real time signs that you see in other languages.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes.
Kenny Jahng — I’m for sure that that’s going to be with video translation, that I’m going to be able to hold up a camera to you speaking and it will actually change your voice, not just subtitle you…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Kenny Jahng — …but that’s the future. And so I think it’s it’s bright for us, especially for talking about translation as a use case.
Rich Birch — Dude, I literally used that app last week. I was in Quebec, French speaking and, you know, predominantly French speaking. And we literally were walking around like using it on signs, using it on our, you know, menus at restaurants. It’s wild. Like I’m like this, I’m living in the future. It’s incredible. It’s incredible. I’d seen it advertised, but never used it before. And it’s free somehow.
Kenny Jahng — It’s a great time to be alive.
Rich Birch — Crazy. It’s crazy. I’m like, how does this happen? And it doesn’t cost me anything.

Kenny Jahng — yes

Rich Birch — I don’t have any perception of how it’s costing me is probably a better way to say that. What about are there any other uses, maybe close to home? I love that global, but are there ways that we should be thinking about this year using generative AI to help us reach people in our neighborhoods, around the corner, that sort of thing?
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, I mean, how many days do you have? Can we start the list alphabetically? I mean, there’s so many ways that we should be using AI to reach more people. I will say this, every single church has a website, I hope, and every single church has a sermon archive on there. And I think the problem right now is that we live in a YouTube world, right, where the average view of a video is four minutes or so.
Kenny Jahng — um If I actually pulled up your website, anybody who’s listening today, we go to any given sermon page and hit play and then start the YouTube countdown clock before someone abandons a video of you, four minutes. Would they get to anything meaningful, material, significant, memorable…

Rich Birch — Oh, dude. Come on. Come on.

Kenny Jahng — …in that first four minutes before they abandon your website page?
Rich Birch — Dude, that is, you know, that’s a great way to think about this. You know, stop complaining about the fact that we have low, you know, memory and like we all that stuff.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Let’s think about the practical use case. Like that’s a great example. So many people, they’re just warming up in the first four minutes. They’re not getting to it.
Kenny Jahng — Yes, exactly.
Rich Birch — So so what do we what can we do? How how do we how do we live in a in, like you say, in a YouTube world ah where that’s yeah people’s primary orientation or even more so like you know TikTok, Snap, all that.
Kenny Jahng — So I mean we we live in a short form video world.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kenny Jahng — And so this is where AI, it used to be you have to the reason why no one does it in the past 5, 10 years is because you need to hire a video editor. Someone needs to literally sit through your entire sermon, transcribe it, read it, highlight, pull out the clips, um you know edit it. It it’s it’s tedious. It’s laborious and it’s expensive.

Kenny Jahng — And now you’ve got ah tools like Sermon Shots that basically you upload your video or just put in your YouTube link, and it will automatically identify the hotspots, the the the key points of your sermon, automatically clip them, resize them to whether you want vertical video, square video, horizontal, and then it will repurpose them into short form pieces. You should post that. Now you should post it on social, you should send an email, but you should also put it on your sermon page.
Kenny Jahng — There’s all these other types of forms of content that you should actually be reformulating your long-form sermon into and putting it on your sermon page. I think for me, there’s over 10 different types of short-form content that should be on a given sermon page and AI is here to help. And it costs pennies, and it also takes like um um less time than you would ever think. And so um and here’s the other kicker, Rich. You and I are always nerding out on this. How can we activate more volunteers in our ministry?
Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Kenny Jahng — And that’s a perfect volunteer role. That’s something that can be done asynchronously, off-site. They don’t need to drive to the church. And it’s something that there’s someone in your church that is has got an hour a week to actually start to do some of these things for your sermons. And the and the the ROI is limitless, right? Because once you put the stuff on the internet, it actually has traction. So anyway, repurposing your content.
Rich Birch — Let’s slow down on this, repurpose your sermon, I love it. So you said 10, that caught my attention. I’m like, oh my goodness, 10. I love the idea of taking the, obviously we’ve got the general sermon, lots of people write discussion notes. So that’s two, I get a couple of clips that, like what would be some of those other 10 that I should be thinking about?
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, so one is FAQs. So there are people who are watching your video, and there’s questions. So this is this from me. For me, it’s from my history as a Church Online pastor, right? So what’s the difference between in-person church and Church Online? There’s a couple of things. Church Online is not always um a degraded version of in-person services. And here’s the one place where I think Church Online shines that’s better than in-person. And that is, in in-person church, the pastor is upset when people chat during their sermon. When people are talking and murmuring and asking questions with each other and chatting with each other, people get upset. If you talk to any church online pastor, we get upset when no one’s talking during the sermon.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. I love it.
Kenny Jahng — Right?

Rich Birch — Yes, true.

Kenny Jahng — And what what actually comes up in the chat, the live chat is there is people are asking questions. They’re asking basic questions…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kenny Jahng — …like, why are we taking snack in the middle of the sermon, bread and juice, and what what’s going on here? Like people have never been to church are asking these questions. Like, what is this Christianity’s jargon? and So all these things come up. So asking FAQs about the topic is a great thing that AI is perfect for doing that.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Kenny Jahng — And then related to that, I’ll just give one more. What about a glossary?
Rich Birch — Oh, I love that.
Kenny Jahng — Why don’t you take out all the jargon and Christianese terms and then just put those definitions there on the sermon page so that someone who’s not…

Rich Birch — Dude, that’s great.

Kenny Jahng — …a believer, that doesn’t have that didn’t grow up in Sunday school actually wants to know about these terms. Don’t make them look it up, put them right there. So those are just two additional easy things that you can do with AI that can be done in an instant with a transcript that takes you no time, but it will serve the viewer someone who comes to your site, oh, tremendously, right? You can imagine that…

Rich Birch — Oh, I love that.

Kenny Jahng — …how how how helpful that is.
Rich Birch — Well, and I love the glossary idea. That’s like close to home because that man, I’m I’m passionate about how do we help unchurched people. And we often trip and this is one of those things I found that but ChatGPT particularly is so good at is helping us think differently than ourselves.
Rich Birch — And so I could see take your transcript, drop literally get the text file, drop it into ChatGPT and just say, thinking like a person who doesn’t who who doesn’t normally attend church, pull out at least a dozen ah phrases or words that ah that they would not understand, define those in a way that, you know, whatever, aligns with evangelical thought and, ah you know, generate that term.
Rich Birch — Or and you could also say, like, you know, reference a ah code time code in the message if you’ve got time codes in your thing. And literally that, you you know, you copy and paste that, do that every week. It takes, well, it takes a lot it takes way shorter to do than we just talked about it.

Kenny Jahng — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like, it’s like 15 seconds every week to do that and goes out of our way to, you know, hey, make it easier for people who don’t attend church on a regular basis. Love that.
Kenny Jahng — Absolutely. Absolutely. So, like, shouldn’t we merchandise the page, as we say in in business?
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kenny Jahng — Shouldn’t we dress up the sermon page with not just that long-form content, but ways to engage it in short-form ways in different angles? Because some people might be more attuned to enter from the angle of text. So maybe it’s a summary. Maybe it’s um doing discussion questions. Maybe it’s pulling out the Bible verses and having some commentaries about those. There’s so many different ways to engage the same topic. The point of your sermon archive page should not be for them to actually play the whole video. The whole point is to engage them so they ask more questions and they take whatever their next step is…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kenny Jahng — …in their relationship with Jesus Christ to take that one little step further. And I think this is the this is the opportunity that the church has today, especially with AI here to support us.
Rich Birch — Well, and I love that because it what it’s, it’s looking at people and the like, in this case, people that come to our website or people that come to our church and saying, Hey, people are going to engage at different levels. Like there are going to be people that are just going to watch your four quote things that are fun to watch.
Kenny Jahng — Yes.
Rich Birch — There are, and then there’s going to be people that are going to want to look at the glossary. People might read your notes. People might write, read the thousand word, you know, article on what you’re talking about. And then some people might be so intrigued by all of that that they’ll sit and watch the 45 minute message. But we start with just the 45 minute message. Why is that? Why do we, it’s like our bias is towards you got to watch this whole thing as opposed to, you know, serving them. Why, why do we do that?
Kenny Jahng — Well, I don’t think people at this point in the church, the staff look at the website as the place of ministry.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kenny Jahng — So it’s not, you you get them to the website, but the website is just a pointer, a directional sign. It’s a map in the whole building of where you’re supposed to go. And the only place you’re supposed to go from the website is to the church building, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Kenny Jahng — And so I like, it and it’s almost, I say it’s almost like a bait and switch. You’re just trying to get them to the website. So they get them into, I say a timeshare presentation inside your sanctuary.
Rich Birch — Oh!
Kenny Jahng — Let’s close the door, lock the door for 90 minutes. And then promise them what ah a mug or a t-shirt at the end of it instead of a tickets to a show.
Rich Birch — Oh, dude.
Kenny Jahng — But like backing up to be serious a little bit, Rich.

Rich Birch — That’s true.

Kenny Jahng — That you’re not looking at the website…

Rich Birch — Right.

Kenny Jahng — …as the place to actually engage and influence people in their quest to learn about Jesus and the biblical worldview that you have to offer.
Rich Birch — Love it. Well, friends, the thing I love about this is, and what you’re pushing us here on, you know, repurposing our, you know, our sermons is like for years, I’ve had this, and you and I’ve had this back and forth about Church Online for, I don’t know, more than a decade…

Kenny Jahng — Yes.
Rich Birch — …where I’m like, I love Church Online. I’m a pro Church Online guy. Some people are going to say I’m not by what I’m about to say. But I’m like, the form of what we do, most of what we do, doesn’t fit or the what the the product that we do doesn’t fit the form. The 45-minute, hour-long thing, it does that doesn’t feel like the internet to me. That feels like something else. But this idea of breaking it up into all these different bits and pieces This feels a lot more, I’ve written about this. I’m like, I think the best church online out there is the IF gathering people, because they figured out how to do it in a whole bunch of different ways, small groups.
Kenny Jahng — Yes.
Rich Birch — And mean sure, they’re doing in-person, they’re doing you know the kind of you know synchronous event online, all of that. But this makes it much more approachable for an average church. I’m a church of 500 people, I could do this. I could find a small team, an AI team, a digerati, who would say, all we’ll do this every week. And um you know the take a couple hours a week and generate or not even take an hour a week and generate all kinds of great stuff.
Rich Birch — So I want to make sure people check out repurposeyoursermon.com.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah.
Rich Birch — This is a resource you’ve put together. Friends, I am unabashed. Like I want you to check this out. What you should do right now is stop this episode and go to repurposeyoursermon.com and engage there. But tell us about that. For the people that didn’t do that, ah tell us what is repurposeyoursermon.com.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah, so we’ve built a community of thousands of church leaders on Facebook. There’s a group called AI for Church Leaders that you can join. And what we’re hearing from our community is they want practical ways of using AI.

Rich Birch — Right.
Kenny Jahng — And so the sermon is the one of the most popular things like we know that we have opportunities to actually do something with a sermon, but we just don’t know what. And so that’s why we built this resource. So it takes your sermon and we we walk through, um I think, a dozen different ways to take your long-form content and create discussion guides, sermon clips, um your the the quote images, devotionals, um summaries, blog articles. There’s all these ways that I think you should do it.
Kenny Jahng — And then we’ve actually mocked up a sample sermon page, right? SoI’ve I’ve gone on this rant with you today and I say, look, this is what you should be doing. So my worldview, I think my point of view is like there’s a sample sermon page outline that we’ve actually built and you can download and look at it and use as inspiration and then learn how to create every single one of those things.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.
Kenny Jahng — And so It’s a practical thing. I think every church could benefit from it. If you don’t follow it, the whole point is at least it will start a discussion internally with your teams and say, hey, maybe there’s one, two, or three good ideas that we can start to figure out how to repurpose our sermon for greater impact. And really the original reason why you are preaching the sermon. And I think this is, again, the caveat, Rich, I think here is many pastors forget that the number of people that might listen to the sermon that they’ve invested 5, 10, 15, 20 hours in, is not limited to the people in the room.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.
Kenny Jahng — The people that actually end up benefiting from that gospel message could be 10x, 100x, 1000x the number of people in your actual room.
Rich Birch — Yep. 100%.
Kenny Jahng — So why don’t we bless as many people as possible with the sermon that you’ve been called to preach?
Rich Birch — Love it.

Kenny Jahng — And so this is one of those, a drop in the bucket to help you you know get to that goal.
Rich Birch — Love it. So yeah, that’s repurposeyoursermon.com. I would love for you folks that are listening in to drop by there to check it out. I love that you’ve made this so practical, this templated page that says, hey, here’s what that should look like.
Kenny Jahng — Yeah.
Rich Birch — And and friends, the reason why we’re talking about this and during this Unprediction series of of interviews is because you know, a year ago, you were thinking, I should be thinking about something with AI and communication. And you’re still thinking that now. And we’ve been talking about it for 31 minutes and you haven’t done anything about it. And unless you take action now, a year from now, you’ll be thinking the same thing and you’re going to be behind on reaching your community. So I want you to double down and invest in this area, like all the areas we’re talking about this month. But this is a really important one that I want you to, you know, spend some time, focus, find some volunteers to pick up this ball and run with it.
Rich Birch — Well, Kenny, you are a gift to me. You’re a gift to the broader community. I’m so thankful that you are here today. As we wrap up today’s episode, anything kind of final thing you’d love to say as we wrap up today’s conversation?
Kenny Jahng — I just want to say it’s ah it’s a word of encouragement. We have so much available to us today um in the technologies, not just AI, in so many things that we have available to us. And I think we just need to lean into that growth mindset…

Rich Birch — So good.

Kenny Jahng — …and let God order our steps in front of us. If we just have the willingness, open heart to do that, um great things can happen for ministries all over the place.
Rich Birch — Love it. So repurposeyoursermon.com is where we send people to. If people want to follow you on socials or anywhere else, where do we want to send them for that?
Kenny Jahng — um You know, I’m pretty easy to find. as Someone said they couldn’t find me recently. I was like, I dispute that. If you Google my name, Kenny Jahng…

Rich Birch — I would agree. Oh my goodness. That’s hilarious.
Kenny Jahng — I’m available on most of the I’m i’m available on the the new kid on the block, TikTok. So if you want to look at some of the my viral videos there, I’m available on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, wherever you want.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Kenny Jahng — So I love engaging with church leaders everywhere, invite you to have a conversation. And I want to, more importantly, I want to learn from everybody, right? we got We have to learn together. And so just hearing what’s working for you in your neck of the woods is a blessing to me. And so I just invite you that conversation.
Rich Birch — Thanks, Kenny, really appreciate you being here today.

**700 Million and Counting: Your Church’s Role in the Fight Against Extreme Poverty with Mike Mantel & Jonathan Wiles** Jan 16, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This month we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re hearing from **Mike Mantel**, the President and CEO, and **Jonathan Wiles**, the Chief Operating Officer, of **Living Water International** (LWI), a faith-based global humanitarian organization. Together we are talking about how *the poor will still be among us*.

How can churches effectively combat poverty and make a lasting impact on communities around the world? LWI focuses on addressing the water crisis by providing safe water, sanitation, and hygiene to impoverished communities. Tune in to learn about the transformative effects of these efforts on thirsty communities and partner churches alike.

**Water, for life, in Jesus’ name.** // Living Water International has been involved in over 25,000 water projects, impacting 7.1 million people globally. The organization partners churches in the US with local churches in thirsty communities to deliver water interventions that also involve teaching sanitation and hygiene, with a strong emphasis on sustainability.

**Celebrate the progress made.** // The mission to provide clean water is seeing encouraging results. In 2001, 1.1 billion people lacked access to basic water, but in 2024, that number decreased to 703 million, even with a growing global population. The collaboration between various organizations has accelerated this progress. However, the remaining challenges are more difficult due to the increasing complexity of needs in poorer, often disaster-stricken regions.

**Focus on a community.** // LWI has learned from past experiences that water projects need to be long-term and community-centered, which led to the development of their “WASH Program Areas” (WPA). This model focuses on geographical areas, with a commitment to stay for 5-7 years to ensure that communities have lasting access to clean water and that local churches are strengthened as discipleship centers.

**The local church is key.** // In WASH Program Areas, local churches are uniquely positioned to serve their communities due to their influence and knowledge of local issues. When LWI partners with these churches, they are not bringing God to a new place, but rather supporting the work that God is already doing through the local churches in these communities. This approach fosters long-term, mutual transformation both in the WPA and the partner church back in the US.

**Partnering with LWI.** // US churches can engage with LWI’s work through knowledge-building, experiential learning, and co-investing in projects. Church members can raise awareness through education, take part in “discipling trips” to communities in need, and help fund projects. LWI encourages churches to go beyond just sending money, urging them to make the partnership a part of their ongoing mission.

**Mutual transformation.** // The goal of discipleship trips is not mission tourism but mutual transformation. These trips provide opportunities for both US churches and WASH Project Areas to learn from each other and deepen their relationships. The trips are a step in a long-term process of engagement and discipleship, not a one-time event.

**Get involved.** // For church leaders who are interested in engaging with LWI, Jonathan explains that churches already committed to specific mission areas can easily integrate clean water initiatives into their existing efforts. By linking their mission work to the pressing need for safe water, churches can create meaningful connections and foster a deeper sense of purpose within their congregations.

Visit water.cc to learn more about Living Water International and how they can plug into what God is already doing at your church. Check out the Advent Conspiracy that Mike mentions here. Plus, don’t forget to download the unPredictions Team Playbook for this podcast episode.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Man, I am super excited that you have decided to join us today. You have joined us amidst these Unpredictions episodes. These are a set of special episodes that we’re kicking off 2025. And today we’re focusing on this idea that the poor will be among us. This was true last year. It will be true this year. It will be true next year. My question is how are our churches dealing with that globally, if the numbers are still correct?

Rich Birch — 700 million people live in extreme poverty. Churches, your church and mine, can and should play a role in addressing this through partnerships, both locally and globally, advocating for social and economic process ah ah policies and just creating opportunity all around the world. And and today I’m excited to have our friends from Living Water International on. If you do not know them, they’re faith-based global humanitarian organization. They link arms with churches around the world to serve thirsty communities through access to safe water, sanitation, and hygiene. ah And an experience with Living Water is just, it’s amazing. These guys do an incredible job. I deeply respect them. I’ve been on the field with LWI, see the work they do. I highly recommend them.

Rich Birch — Today we’ve got Mike Mantel. He ah has since 2008 served as the president and CEO of LWI. And we’ve also got Jonathan Wiles with us. He serves as the chief operating officer. We got the big guns with us today. Welcome to the show, Jonathan and Mike. Glad you’re here.

Mike Mantel — Rich, what a delight, man. Been following you forever. And thanks for doing this podcast and letting us chat with you this morning.

Jonathan Wiles — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — This is going to be great. I’m excited. Jonathan, glad you’re here as well. Why why don’t we start with you, Jonathan? Fill in your story a little bit. Tell us about your connection to LWI. Tell us about ah Living Water as well a little bit.

Jonathan Wiles — I’ve been involved with Living Water for going on 25 years in various roles, but but really my focused engagement on staff and in leadership has been since 2007. Mike came on in 2008 and the two of us have been working together to to really kind of develop this organization in a direction that we feel is really honoring to God and and helping build his kingdom. And yeah, love getting to make a difference with Mike every day.

Rich Birch — Love it, so good. John ah um Mike, why don’t you tell us a little bit about, what does LWI do? you know I kind of gave the boilerplate, but if you were to bump into somebody, maybe you’re you know you’re at a conference or somebody and says, oh, Living Water, I think I’ve heard of you. What what do you do?

Mike Mantel — Like you said, we’re a faith-based organization. We believe that water is the fundamental intervention in people’s lives. If they have access to water, kids get healthy, healthy kids are in school, educated kids have a chance to lift themselves out of poverty. But what’s special about Living Water is we work with and through local churches. Wherever we work, the church is really at the center of what we do.

Mike Mantel — We’ve been doing this for 35 years. We’ve completed about 25,000 water projects. We call them WASH projects, water sanitation hygiene. About 7.1 million people…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Mike Mantel — …now i have access to safe, sustainable water in the name of Jesus because of our partners and churches in the United States and around the world.

Rich Birch — Yeah, this is amazing. Now, the thing about the water crisis in general that I have found encouraging as an outsider to this humanitarian issue is there’s real progress being made against people gaining access to clean water. Like I remember when the number is bigger than the number we talk about today. Jonathan, why don’t you talk to us kind of at a global level. What’s the progress that’s being made there? Which is incredible when we think about this idea of the poor ah of being among us. This is an issue that, man, we’re taking we’re taking steps against. Talk to us about what that looks like kind of at a global at a global level.

Jonathan Wiles — Sure. Well, back in 2001, when the Millennium Development Goals were first developed and there was a lot of benchmarking happening, yeah the number was 1.1 billion people in the world that didn’t have access to basic water.

Jonathan Wiles — And today that number is down to 703 million. So that’s that’s huge progress.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jonathan Wiles — And yeah as we all know, the population is growing. So the you know the the the mile the the you know the the goal line is moving and we’re still making progress. So that’s super encouraging to see what’s happening around the world. And that’s happening because a lot of organizations are starting to work together, find their lanes and really and and hit a good rhythm of of doing this work that we’re all called to.

Rich Birch — Love it. Now, Mike, I can imagine that like the first 700 million was the easiest 700 million. The next 700 are going to be the hardest. Like, you know, there’s an increasing, I would imagine, I again, I don’t know your world, but I would imagine that’s the case. How does LWI—kind of get into the details here a little bit—how do you work with churches? I like this idea that you partner churches together ah to make a difference. What how does that work? What’s that actually look like for LWI?

Mike Mantel — You know, we’ve been we’re a learning organization. We’ve been learning for since we started. And in the olden days, we’d encourage people to get together, drill a water well, teach a little bit about sanitation, and hopefully that water would keep ah serving ah thirsty people.

Mike Mantel — But we found water wells, the mechanics break. You know, people forget their sanitation and hygiene lessons. And a number of years ago, working with Jonathan, we said, you know let’s let’s just take a big old cookie cutter and carve out a geographical footprint of about 50 to 100,000 people, people that need access to water. And let’s do a baseline study. Who’s got the water? What churches are in that environment? What are the statistics for health and hygiene? And let’s just stay in that footprint for years – five to seven years – until everybody has water, everybody has appropriate sanitation and hygiene, and the church at the center of this work becomes more visible and more relevant so they can continue to make disciples long after the water interventions are done. And that was called a WASH program area.

Mike Mantel — It was a crazy idea. It costs way too much money. We found somebody that supported the idea, and we launched our first WASH Program area, WPA. But what we learned was that the church is the institution in these environments. They can link arms across denominational divides. They can work with municipal leaders and community leaders, and the church really did become the hero. It emerged as the network, the living body of Jesus Christ, that not only brought water in Jesus’ name, but continued to make disciples.

Mike Mantel — And we got to know these church pastors and these church leaders, so we started introducing them to others. And as we moved to new WASH program areas, we were ah and there was advocacy from the last WASH program area.

Mike Mantel — And then we said, hey, let’s go tell the churches in the United States that they got sister churches in low-income areas across the world, let’s just invite them to participate, to link arms with church leaders they may not even know. They they may be denominationally aligned, or they may be stretching a little bit, but let’s just build relationships and see what the Spirit of the Lord does.

Rich Birch — Love it. I remember, so I’ve heard that before. And then years ago, I remember I was in a community um with LWI, friends that are listening in, and this was in one of these communities where the average person was making around a dollar a day. Like it’s a very extremely poor situation and open sewers, which is a you know a fancy way to say ditches with, you know, poop in them like it it was a tough community. I’m like, but the thing that I it it was a moving experience to stand there and be like nobody else was there. That was what was clear to me. The government was not there. There was no other NGOs. Like people were not. This was so far down the developmental, like there’s so much need to be. But you know who was there? There was a pastor there in that community. And that that moved me, moved me big time.

Rich Birch — Jonathan, double click on that. Why is the church on the the field side? So like on the communities we’re trying to help, why is it a great partner for an organization like LWI to deliver? What is the kind of bedrock of development to kind of tackle extreme poverty?

Jonathan Wiles — Yeah, theologically, I mean, the church is is called to be not only the voice, but the hands and feet of Jesus.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — So when they have thirsty neighbors, the church is in a is is it’s just it’s part of the church’s identity, that it’s DNA, it’s calling, to do this work. But just on a practical level, churches have local knowledge, they have local resources, they have convening power, they have influence. um People listen to their local pastors or local faith leaders in a way that they don’t listen to us outsiders.

Rich Birch — True.

Jonathan Wiles — And so when we begin to really in empower and work with the local church, and you know when we enter into these communities, it’s, you know, we’re not bringing bringing God to this place, God’s already at work, right? So we’re entering in with the spirit of service and inquiry. We’re asking questions or maybe telling stories from what we’ve seen God do and in other places to excite the imagination, but we’re really there to say, what is the Holy Spirit already doing?

Jonathan Wiles — What is the vision that you have, if the kingdom were to break into this place in an amazing way? And how can we work with you toward that by addressing this these needs around water and sanitation and hygiene? And as we do that work, see the church thrive, the community become more resilient, and people be served with safe water for for the the sake of their kids, and for the community, and the then the poor among them. And so that that means such ah it’s such a powerful dynamic and it so lines up with God’s calling on the church and with what he’s already put in place with them that we get to help activate and support and resource it.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Sticking with you, Jonathan, but then thinking on the side on the on our on this side, churches here in in the in our country, you know, that I know that a part of what I’ve seen you do partly front row, you know, at our our church when I was at Liquid Church, and then consistent I’ve seen other churches who have have said like, hey, this is a thing that we’re going to pay attention to. Like this is this is a part of what we’re we’re going to actually take this partnership thing and and actually try to live that out. What impact does that make on churches here back at home?

Jonathan Wiles — Well, I mean, it it awakens the the kind of the prophetic imagination of churches of what’s possible in the world.

Rich Birch —That’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — It creates opportunities for cross-cultural discipleship. um You know, we’re obviously supporting the the discipleship of people who are in churches in, you know, that we have 912 active church partnerships…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Jonathan Wiles — …in our program areas and in these WPAs Mike was talking about, but we also have 429 vibrant church partnerships here in the U.S. of churches that are seeing their story connected with the story of what’s happening in the world. I mean, that Bryant Myers years ago said that that really the story of Christian development is when our story engages with their story, whoever “their” is in this case.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — And this in this case, it’s the thirsty with and alongside local churches um in the context of God’s story and all of us being transformed together. And that’s really the vision of what we’re after.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Mike, why don’t you lean in a little bit more on that in the churches on, you know, in our country, how have you seen, um you know, engagement with LWI help that church with, um you know, things that we might wake up and worry about, which is like discipleship and seeing people take steps closer to Jesus. And, um you know, and and and how does this kind of your mission, how do you how do you practically do that? What’s that look like?

Mike Mantel — You know churches begin that journey in various places. We’ve kind of framed up a couple of three big doors, you know ah expanding, growing in knowledge, like what is the water crisis? And really? People are drinking out of rivers and they’re not healthy or are um what is the state of evangelism in in developing countries? You know, a lot of people Don’t really know. So the one big door is growing in knowledge. you know How can we provide resources on both ah water the water issue, evangelism, and discipleship, and the interplay of those in low-income communities? Here’s some information, some videos, some data, some sermon series, some Bible studies, or Sunday School material. Here’s some knowledge. You can grow in knowledge.

Mike Mantel — The next is expand your experience. You know, as adult learners, we don’t really learn by listening to facts. We got to touch stuff. We got to feel stuff.

Rich Birch — True.

Mike Mantel — We got to talk about stuff. So we invite people to take a a trip. They used to be called mission trips. Now they’re called discipling trips where a group of a dozen people go to, they cross a line. They cross a geographic, economic, cultural line where they’re more sensitive to what’s going on in the Holy Spirit. So we get out of our comfort zone, call it a mission trip. We go to Latin America, the Caribbean, Africa, and I could probably trace every dynamic, ah impassioned advocate for mission or change to a cross-cultural experience.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mike Mantel — So we we invite people to come on a trip, but not everybody can come on a trip. So what do you do? Well, you can fake a trip. You know you can you know stop drinking Coca-Cola and coffee for 10 days and drink only water and think about the water issue. You you can run a marathon. I know. Did you ever run a marathon at Liquid? I know they they do ah they did a lot of…

Rich Birch — This body’s not made for running, Mike. Mike, this body is not it.

Mike Mantel — I’m still suffering from my running.

Rich Birch — I’ll cheer on the sidelines.

Mike Mantel — You could run, you can walk, you can climb, you can bike, but experience, expand your experience.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yep, that’s good

Mike Mantel — And then the third is a co-invest for impact. You know, we can make a difference, especially you know coming out of COVID. People are eager to make a difference. They they want to move change. But you know often you know an individual is too far from the action. They are a little concerned about how their money is going to be spent. Is it really going to equip churches to help people access water?

Rich Birch — Right.

Mike Mantel — Is it really going to happen? Well, you can only trust that if you build your experience and you grow in knowledge. So it’s kind of like these three doors. You can enter and any one of these three doors. But collectively, we call that a co-laboring church.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Mike Mantel — And a co-laboring church will change the world.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. Well, I’m you know, I’m going to play the ah I don’t know, devil’s advocate. That’s probably a bad thing to say on a church podcast. But, ah you know what, there it is. We’re going to say it there. Jonathan, you know, the idea of missions trips like, man, is this we’re sending people tourism to pet poor people, take pictures with them, you know, like, look at me. I’m such a great person.

Rich Birch — That’s not your, I know, I can’t even, I can’t play the devil’s advocate. I know that’s not what happened that’s not what’s happening on LWI trips. But for the person that thinks, Hey, isn’t that what that’s all about? What do you say to them? How do you ensure that this is a discipling – I like that – a discipling experience, an experience that helps the the people that we’re sending helps them grow. Talk us through how do you ensure that helps with the LWI experiences?

Jonathan Wiles — Yeah, and you know, ah we and I have have wrestled through those kinds of questions over the years, and we really want to stay away from kind of mission tourism, um or or just creating experiences that are about us.

Jonathan Wiles — And, you know, on the surface of it, you know, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to send a bunch of you know, Western people who don’t have drilling skills out to do work to serve a local community with their hands. I mean, we can, I mean, you know, Guatemalan people and Kenyan people, you know, in these communities where we serve are some of the hardest working people I know. It’s not like we need the manual labor, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jonathan Wiles — So on a certain level we don’t need you to go on one of these Living Water trips. But we would love for you to go because it’s transformative for you and it opens up doors for transformation locally in ways that are difficult for our local teams to create on their own. When a group of of Gringos or Zungu show up in your community, it’s a convening moment. it’s ah It’s a moment that validates what’s happening in the local church. I mean, because often they’ll look to these Western people coming in to visit and say, oh, we we want to learn from you. And when we when we say, no, we’re here to learn from you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.

Jonathan Wiles — We want to understand what God’s doing and be able to be part of this mutual transformation process. That’s a beautiful thing. And and our goal really is for these trips to not be the thing. They’re a step…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — …they’re part of a long-term multi-year, you know, potentially generational transformational process as US s churches are engaging in the story of local churches in the communities with thirsty people over time. And and there’s some mutuality to that. They’re engaging in these stories you know ah sometimes we begin to have people come from the context where we’re working to show up on mission week at your church and to learn from you in the same way that you’re going to learn from them. We’re we’re creating this kind of back and forth dialogue that’s part of a two-way relationship that our goal there is that the transformation happens both ways. And when you create those cross-cultural moments…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — …you create story, you build energy, and you open up new possibilities in people’s minds of what’s even possible.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That, you know, it’s interesting you say that the kind of convening, um you know, the how that’s effective or helpful to the local community. I remember one trip I was on, um and I don’t know if this is still a thing on your trip. So if they don’t do this anymore, like you can, you know, say we don’t do that anymore. But I think it was on Thursday or Friday. It was late in the experience and it was after the well. We had you know finished the well and like, yeah, you figure out very quickly. It’s like, oh, like, yeah, like I sent a lot of emails for my work. Like I’m not a hard worker. Like, you know, I, you know, and, but I’m happy to jump in and try and get muddy and do it all. And like, it’s great. It’s fun. But, and then, but then I remember, you know, on that the end of that week, Thursday or Friday, that the church that we were working with graciously put together like a fun, you know, like we had dinner together, a lunch together. And um They served a meal for us and you know kids came and like people came from around the community.

Rich Birch — And I I loved it because the path there’s a crowd and the pastor got up and he talked he talked about the well but talked to he you know talked about the gospel. And I knew I was it was one of the had that moment where I was like, oh like the fact that we’re sitting here having a meal right now is helping this pastor communicate with his community. We’re, our presence here is, is helping. And he was so thankful. I also remember that it was a, we had chicken, some sort of chicken soup thing. And I remember I had seconds and people still to this day, they’re like, I can’t believe you had seconds that day. Did you see the chicken? And I’m like, it’s a mission trip. You can’t get hurt on a mission trip, right? Push it down to the bottom of the bowl. It’s hotter down at the bottom. It’ll be fine.

Rich Birch — But that’s a that’s a real um, you know, ah for someone who I would say I have been skeptic of these kinds of experiences. I’m like, what what can what difference can this really make? I was like, oh like I can see that now and obviously, you know it had a profound impact on me and my you know and my my leadership.

Rich Birch — So Mike, when you said you said earlier that there are 429 active partnerships with churches here in America. That’s amazing I think if I caught that number correctly. Give us an example of like a church, um not Liquid Church, somebody else, that is like ah a great church that’s like, you know, is is plugged in. What does that look like? If there’s church leaders that are listening in today, they would say, we would like to be a part of this. We’d like to help. You know, ah maybe ah this is a year I’d like to lean in. What, what could, what kind of, what does that look like? You know, practically.

Mike Mantel — There are so many great churches, you know the ones that come to mind, you know Sugar Creek, Ecclesia, Living Stones. There’s so many great churches, but the the one I would talk about is The Crossing in St. Louis.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Mike Mantel — You know, we became friends when they were like a small church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mike Mantel — And they committed to cross the lines that divide us to pursue unity of the body of Christ and to help people access water. They early on, one of the pastors, Greg Holder, co-created Advent Conspiracy. Now Advent Conspiracy…

Rich Birch — Fantastic.

Mike Mantel — …was just the result of three frustrated pastors, Rick McKinley, Chris Seay and Greg Holder. They said, Christmas is so hard for pastors.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mike Mantel — All of our congregants are burnt out, they’re overspending money, we’re putting on so many services, we’re burnt out. And so what they did through Advent Conspiracy, it says, well, let’s let’s reconsider what leading up to Christmas really is.

Rich Birch — So good.

Mike Mantel — It is, you know, to four tenets, worship fully, spend less, give more, and love all.

Rich Birch — So good.

Mike Mantel — And they they were addressing a pastoral issue. So what happened, because they hope to fund and you know one water well in Liberia. What happened was over time, kids fired up. And over the last 15 years, 600 specific churches have engaged with Living Water to love all.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Mike Mantel — Now, that was just a great idea. It was spiritually serendipitous. Wow, wow. That’s But what happened at the church, in The Crossing is, as it grew, they began to field ah educational ah conferences for church pastors that wanted to sort through issues of unity, forgiveness, reconciliation. This is an American church…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Mike Mantel — …culturally sensitive, but bringing together hundreds of pastors in multiple countries.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Mike Mantel — That was their mission, which, Rich, blew my mind because what that helped us do was organize churches within these footprints I was talking about earlier. A U.S. church changed our organizing efforts to deliver water, sanitation, and hygiene and strengthen the church. A U.S. church did that.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Mike Mantel — They fielded team Living Water trips. Now you may not run, but a lot of people do run.

Rich Birch — Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Mike Mantel — And so 16 years later, this church is still going on trips, still hosting what they call Genius of One unity conferences, still running marathons, and still preaching about how crossing lines that divide us um are transformative.

Rich Birch — So good.

Mike Mantel — They’re part of disciple making. And that now it’s a big old church. And there’s an engaged hundreds of people from thousands of members that see Living Water not as some organization they fund, but they see Living Water as their extension to churches around the world.

Rich Birch — Yep. Right. Yeah. And that, that’s a great practical, I’ll put an even finer point on that for folks that are listening in, Mike. You know, we just came out of Christmas. Here we are. It’s January. I know you’ve still got some of those burnout, like, gosh, remember those days, late December. Man, it was crazy for you as a church leader. What if you now looked into Advent conspiracy for 2025? If we said, Hey, maybe we look ahead and that is like a it’s an entire movement of churches that it’s still you know partner with that. That could be something and maybe your your leadership team would be a little more motivated this time of year to think about it because we’re this far out and we’re feeling you know pastorally even you know what goes on with people you know at that time of year. That could be a real practical um you know step for 2025 uh you know for you.

Rich Birch — Jonathan, let’s think about a church that – I love The Crossing as an example. Greg’s an incredible leader. He’s a great follower. If you’re not following The Crossing, you should be. They do all kinds of amazing things for sure. ah You should you should do that.

Rich Birch — Let’s think about a church that is or a leader that wants to kind of dip their toe in. They’re like, OK, you’ve got my attention. The thing I love about the water cause is, like I think, you know, yeah we see that our people see it or our friends of friends see it as a good thing. It’s an easy thing for us to communicate. It’s like, I can show you a ball, a glass of water and say there are people, there are 700 million people that wake up today who don’t have access to that. We got to do something about that. That is, and people who don’t follow Jesus get it. Now they see it as a good thing. We see it as a God thing. We see it as a way to see transformation take. I think it’s a great, you know, to it’s a great cause to be a part of for sure.

Rich Birch — But let’s say I’m a church leader that’s like, okay, I want to do something about this. I want to kind of dip my toe in. I want to take some initial steps this year. What would be some of those that would be, you know, knowledge, experience, you know, co-invest. What would be some of those kind of initial steps that we could take this year, Jonathan?

Jonathan Wiles — Well, I yeah I mean, I think the story is, as you say, you know so compelling and so easy to get to step into. You know ah it’s it’s it’s also, there’s there’s layers of complexity behind that really simple idea that people in the world need safe water. And so there is a lot to learn as we as we grow in knowledge. So I mean I think I think you know knowledge is a good place to start. um And I think, you know for a lot of churches, they’re really wanting to engage in stories ah of what God’s doing in the world. And they may already be committed to someplace in the world where, hey, we’re really you know focused on working in you know and and you know the Northern Triangle of Central America.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jonathan Wiles — We’re focused on West Africa. We’re, you know, and so in those those kinds of, um you know it’s it’s so easy for us to just hook into those kinds of existing…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — …ah mission mission focus areas that a church might already have. And and to do some discovery about, well, what it what would it look like for us to, you know we’ve as we’ve been on trips, or if we’ve been engaging with other partners in these places, we’ve been supporting local missionaries, or whatever that looks like for your church, um what would it look like for us to link that to addressing safe water needs? Because as we’ve been on mission trips to those places, or as we’ve heard those stories…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — …we know they’re dealing with that as a problem, and we just haven’t thought about that. What would that look like?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jonathan Wiles — So I mean, just just connecting this aspect into this that your church’s existing mission efforts is something that’s really easy to explore and to understand what what what a what something could look like. And and that gives us an opportunity for a toe in the water that’s in the context of something that God’s already doing in your church.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it.

Jonathan Wiles — You know? Because it’s it’s really easy to to say, well, hey, we could we could raise a little money through a little campaign during Lent or Advent or whatever whatever season makes sense and and sponsor ah you know a WASH project in that context. But we’d love to figure out a way to make that even more meaningful than just getting you know saying, well, we did that one thing. And we got a report and we know that there was some transformation, but how do we make that something that’s really becomes part of our church’s story and invites us into what’s next? So, I mean, there there are a lot of really simple first steps, but we’d love to love to make that part of the story of the church.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of, you know, there’s church leaders that are listening in, they’re like, hmm, maybe we should add this to our existing, or at least explore, you know, get some more knowledge about, hmm, maybe there’s a way for us to kind of add this to what we’re doing already. If you just go to Living Waters website, water.cc, great website. At the very top, you’ll see a ah link, “Why Us”, which talks all about kind of what Living Water is all about. If you scroll down to the bottom there, you can see the communities that they serve in. um you know it’s it’s ah That would be a great way to kind of get the ball rolling um and then you know reach out, maybe think about the initial trip or something like that. That’s that’s incredible.

Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation. Just as we’re coming to land, ah Jonathan, I want to stick with you for kind of last comments here. I don’t want, I don’t want to skirt by this. We’ve got the operations guy, the guy that really knows what’s going on here. What’s on the horizon for Living Water? When you kind of look up over to the horizon and think, okay, where are we, where are we going next? What, where does kind of our, the stuff that we’re thinking about, the questions we’re asking um down the road a little bit, where’s, where’s your head at these days?

Jonathan Wiles — Well, there there are a couple of ways I can answer that question. One is that, I mean, you mentioned it earlier, you know the first 700 million were easier than the next 700 million, right?

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jonathan Wiles — So you know the the yeah and so we’re we’re really challenging ourselves at Living Water to think about people who are really particularly overlooked and excluded in the areas where we serve. So we’re we’re we’re you know pushing that envelope even more than we have. I mean, on a certain level, we’ve been focused on serving overlooked and excluded people since the very day we were founded, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jonathan Wiles — But this is pushing pushing ourselves to think even harder about going to some of those hard places in the in the footprints where we’re already committed and then asking questions about where we might need to go next.

Jonathan Wiles — And so that’s that’s a big question. um For us, um knowing that you know they’re that we’re in an increasingly volatile world, um you know a lot of the the the communities that we’re serving, thirsty and extremely poor communities, are the ones that are disproportionately affected by disasters, ah by environmental degradation.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — And so we’re asking questions around how do we help these local churches develop a ah posture toward creation care and taking care of the local environmental resources, so that water can be there for the next generation, and to help these communities build resilience to be able to resist you know to to weather the shocks of you know just the the disasters and the crises that we’re just seeing pop up and increase and in frequency in our world.

Jonathan Wiles — Those are those are the kind of the the challenges we’re wrestling with. We don’t have all the answers, but we’re leaning hard in those directions…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jonathan Wiles — …as we try to figure out how we continue to solve this crisis.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Love that. Uh, that’s, yeah, that’s a super good insight. Mike, I want to throw it to you for, for last words. I know one of the things I like about you and LWI in general, but you specifically is, I know you have a heart for pastors, a care for pastors. You want to encourage them. What would you say kind of an encouraging word to, uh, pastors that are kicking off 2025, uh, as they’re thinking about this coming year. How would you kind of encourage them as we kick off this year?

Mike Mantel — Hang in there. The Lord is with you.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Mike Mantel — Continue to lead. You know often the stress of leadership gets you know really, really heavy, but you’ve been called into this work. You’ve been equipped for this work. Living Water and other faith-based organizations want to get behind you so that you can share the good news of Jesus, so that you can make disciples, so that you can love the poor. Just hang in there. um You’re not crazy for doing this work. You’re making a difference. You’re changing the world.

Rich Birch — Right.

Mike Mantel — What you do today will have eternal consequences. So we love you. Have a great New Year.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much, Mike and Jonathan. I really appreciate you being here. Again, friends, I would encourage you to check out water.cc, follow Living Water on all your social medias, you know, to even just kind of stay up to date on what they’re doing throughout the entire year. Really appreciate you guys being here today. Thanks so much.

**Preventing Marital Breakdown: Creating Proactive Support Systems in Your Church with Nicky & Sila Lee** Jan 15, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This January we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by **Nicky and Sila Lee** of **The Marriage Course // Alpha International**, and are talking about how *marriages will still be struggling*.

Nearly half of all marriages in America are experiencing difficulties. There’s a huge opportunity for churches to step in and offer proactive, structured support to marriages in their communities. Tune in to learn how to use The Pre-Marriage Course and The Marriage Course to overcome the stigmas surrounding marriage enrichment and provide couples with practical tools and biblical principles for maintaining a healthy relationship.

**Create space for conversation.** // The courses Nicky and Sila have developed have reached over 1.5 million couples worldwide, serving people from a variety of cultural and religious backgrounds, including non-churchgoers. Their goal is to provide couples with practical tools and biblical principles for maintaining a healthy relationship. However, the most important part of the course is not what Nicky and Sila teach, but rather the one-on-one time couples have talking through a structured topic. This aspect makes the course unique for every couple, regardless of their background and situation.

**Proactively offer support.** // Churches must take proactive steps to support marriages in their communities. Rather than waiting for a crisis situation, we need to help people address struggles before they become serious problems. A once-a-year marriage weekend at our churches isn’t enough. Marriage health requires regular enrichment and support.

**It’s normal to need help.** // Using these courses at our churches helps to remove the stigma that can be associated with marriage enrichment programs. It’s important for churches to normalize the conversation around marriage support, with pastors and church leaders leading the way. Demonstrate that seeking help is a sign of strength and make these conversations a regular part of how you care for the people in your community.

**Arrange a date night**. // Part of The Marriage Course emphasizes the importance of creating a date night feel during the course sessions. By setting up a romantic evening for couples, it will alleviate the nervousness that many couples feel when attending marriage enrichment events. In addition, creating a welcoming environment will encourage them to enjoy their time together and return to each of the seven sessions.

**Privacy over group discussions.** // The Marriage Course is unique because it avoids group discussions unlike many other marriage classes. Many couples may be good at talking to other people, but not with each other. So the course provides space to encourage that one-on-one communication. Giving couples their own table and space also allows them to explore their relationship privately without fear of judgment.

**Experience the course yourself.** // Nicky recommends that leaders who are considering offering The Marriage Course in their church experience it within their own marriage first. Whether you run a small pilot course, or go through the course at home, the experience will help leader couples to understand the course’s impact before encouraging others to join.

Visit The Marriage Course on Alpha USA’s website or The Marriage Course to learn how to use it at your church and take a look below at the training video that Nicky talks about. Plus, don’t forget to download the unPredictions Team Playbook for this podcast episode here.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. You’ve caught us in the middle of our Unprediction episodes. These are seven episodes. We’re talking about things that were true last year, that’ll be true this year. And unfortunately with this one, we think it’ll be true next year. And we think that your church should be worrying about it, thinking about it.
Rich Birch — Today we’re talking about this idea that marriages will continue to struggle this year. Nearly half of all American marriages are facing challenges. Churches must bolster, do what they can to bolster their support for church or for for um marriages. And today we’ve got experts to really help us with this conversation.
Rich Birch — We’ve got Nicky and Sila Lee. They developed the marriage course and the pre-marriage course to offer practical support to couples in person and online. They’ve run the pre-marriage course, if I’m doing my math right, at Holy Trinity Brompton in London since 1985 and the marriage course since 1996. And many couples have found their marriages enriched through these courses. At last count that I see, 1.5 million couples have taken these courses. So we are in for a treat today. Nikki and Sila, welcome. So glad you’re here.
Nicky and Sila Lee — Thanks, Rich. So good to be with you.
Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be great. what Why don’t we start, Sila, fill up the picture there from a, like a bio point of view. What did I miss? What’s the part of the story that I, that we got to make sure we tell.
Nicky and Sila Lee — OK, the main thing is that Nicky and I have been married for 48 years.
Rich Birch — Congratulations. That’s amazing.
Nicky and Sila Lee — And um and actually, when we had um when we were developing these courses back in 1985, you were absolutely right about we started with pre-marriage. We’d been married for nine years then and had four young children. And um that was actually quite key because we had personally learnt a lot in the early years of our marriage.
Nicky and Sila Lee — We had met, fallen in love as teenagers and were not Christians. And then we had come to faith at a university mission and together, the same night, same night, same moment.
Rich Birch — Oh nice.
Nicky and Sila Lee — We won’t know till heaven who got there slightly before the other [inaudible] same moment. Anyway, that had profound impact on our relationship.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nicky and Sila Lee — We’d been doing it our own way up until that point. After that, really God came and showed us a whole different way of doing relationships. We then got married two and a half years later. And we had a lot of things to learn and we learned God’s ways of loving are good.
Nicky and Sila Lee — And we we hadn’t done any pre-marriage. There wasn’t, I don’t think there was a pre-marriage course running…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nicky and Sila Lee — …when we got married back in 1976.

Rich Birch — Very cool.

Nicky and Sila Lee — But we got some advice from some older Christian married couples and oh my goodness that advice made a difference.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Nicky and Sila Lee — And I think from that moment onwards we both felt, do you know, we really want any couple preparing to get married to have these very practical tools and skills and the biblical principles. So really, you you say about why we started then with the pre-marriage in 1984.

Nicky and Sila Lee — We joined the staff I was ordained and we joined the staff at a church in central London called Holy Trinity Brompton, we’ll just call it HTB for short. And one of the things we were asked to do was to prepare the couples for marriage those who were getting married at our church. And we had five couples in our sitting room.
Nicky and Sila Lee — And we we the idea was we’d run this about three times each year, but these couples started talking to their friends who weren’t getting married at our church. And many of them weren’t churchgoers at all and saying, could they come? We said, sure, as long as they understand based on Christian principles.
Nicky and Sila Lee — And we got more and more couples coming. We had to move out of our home. We couldn’t fit them in. But people kept telling their friends about this course. And they just grew and grew. And over, I think, about 30 years, it grew from those five couples initially to 160 couples or so…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Nicky and Sila Lee — …every time we ran the course.

Rich Birch — Wow.
Nicky and Sila Lee — And of those couples, up to half of them were not churchgoers. Wouldn’t describe themselves necessarily as Christians.
Rich Birch — Interesting. Well, that, you know, and and this obviously is a part of kind of the I don’t know what you call it, the Alpha cinematic universe. It’s like a part of the, you know, the Alpha ministry. I know our church, we’re an Alpha church and we use this in the kind of. We try to use it to reach out to people who have who do not follow Jesus. And your resources, one of the things I love about your resources is they are somehow you’ve been able to strike this balance of they’re very gracious to people. If you don’t don’t follow Jesus, you’re you’re able to follow along. But then at the same time, they point back ah you know to principles, obviously, that are timeless, which I just think is amazing. That’s incredible. Well over 1.5 million couples. Oh, sorry, Sila, go ahead there.
Nicky and Sila Lee — No, I just wanted to say we why we then followed up with developing the marriage course, which is really key. And that was because of two reasons, really. When we got more and more of these engaged couples, you know, couples exploring marriage, in-love, engaged, they are infatuated, they’ve got those rose-tinted spectacles on. And we could see when we talked about resolving conflict and stuff, it would kind of like their eyes would glaze over and you could tell they were thinking, we’re not going to have any conflict.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Nicky and Sila Lee — We are in love. And then we kind of kept thinking, oh, gosh, if only we could get these couples back…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nicky and Sila Lee — …about two years in, when the rose tinted specs have come off, and they really start to hear some of this native experience, some of their differences and some conflict, etc. And that was really why we developed the marriage course with – the pre marriage is five sessions, the marriage course is seven. And and really we wanted to get them in those early years because all the all the evidence shows the early years are key.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nicky and Sila Lee — The other real real reason was because we were starting to get inundated with couples coming to us and saying we’re really struggling. And they’ve been married 10, 20, 25 more years. And we kept saying to ourselves oh gosh if only these couples had come in the early years…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Nicky and Sila Lee — …they wouldn’t be in such a mess now.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. I know as a pastor, one of the questions I’ll ask in those kind of pre-marriage situations, you know, not on the first time I’ve engaged with a couple that’s getting married, but further on, I’ll say, listen, you know, the stats are not good ah around marriage and like, so what do you think? Why do you think you’re the one that’s going to, you know, buck the trend? And, and my, what my one piece of advice kind of when it all boils down is I’m like, I would love to book something a year from now, two years from now. Like, let’s, let’s not, not wait, you know, look up over the horizon. Sure. Happy to do pre-marriage, but let’s look at something a couple of years down the road.
Rich Birch — So over 1.5 million couples have participated. This was just crazy. That’s a huge number – millions of people. What what makes these resources resonate across so many cultures, languages? This is obviously a huge issue. Nicky, why is that? Why why do you think that is?
Nicky and Sila Lee — And let me say, Rich, we had no concept that these courses were going to go anywhere outside our own local church. We thought we were just developing them for our situation…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nicky and Sila Lee — …the need that we saw, a couple. So the fact that they’ve now gone around the world, they’re in over 120 countries, this is this is extraordinary. And we can only put it down to the work of the Holy Spirit.
Nicky and Sila Lee — But what we have seen is that some some very practical tools, which actually are biblical principles for relationships, for for making a marriage work, these apply universally. They apply in every country. And and we’ve seen that from all the different countries we visited [inaudible].

Nicky and Sila Lee — And I think the other thing we have seen that the most important part of these courses is not what Nicky and I say, but actually during every session there is a significant amount of time where couples have an opportunity to talk together in a conversation, just as a couple, and and completely just between them, and on a very structured sort of topic and so on. And that makes the marriage course and the pre-marriage course totally unique for every couple…

Rich Birch — Right.

Nicky and Sila Lee — …it depending you know where they are, what their situation and so on and that kind of even in different cultures it enables them to talk in their own context uniquely for them in their marriage and we know those conversations, during every session, are probably the most important transformative parts of the marriage course.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. And we’re going to get into some of the mechanics here in a minute, because I do think a part of the way you’ve structured this, I think is just I think it’s unique. And I think it is a part of why God God uses it. But, you know, many churches, they face this challenge of overwhelming couples, they have or either just or straight face the challenge of an overwhelming number of couples struggling in their their are marriages. How did you identify this gap? What did this you know this is obviously a an issue that is faced in lots of churches, lots of ministries, and what were some kind of early hurdles as you were piecing these these materials together that you were able to kind of overcome to launch them ultimately? What what what kind of what were the things that you had to do to get this thing rolling?

Nicky and Sila Lee — When you say about you know pastors being overwhelmed by the need of couples wanting help, we we were hearing that again and again. And I think, and this is true in the UK, in our own country, the churches tended to be reactive, reacting to crises in marriage and family life.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yep.
Nicky and Sila Lee — But to to make a difference, we’ve got to become proactive.
Nicky Lee — I remember one church leader saying to us, this is many years ago, he said, before we started using the marriage course, I felt I was only firefighting.
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Nicky Lee — But once I started running the marriage course, then they were starting to invest in marriage, invest in the health of marriages.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Nicky Lee — And the courses are based on the principle that prevention is better than cure. Now, that’s not to say we don’t have lots of couples who are struggling, who need help, who come to look help. But ideally we want to help them put these things into place before they hit problems.
Sila Lee — And I think the other thing we realize in our own church, 100%, that churches have very busy calendars. There is a lot going on in churches.
Rich Birch — That’s true. Yep.
Sila Lee — And so easily, this sort of ah proactive marriage support can become a day a year for the couples who are married in the church. And we realize that is not enough. That’s not going to help.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Sila Lee — This create a very positive marriage culture where everybody is sees that this is something we all need to do to invest in our marriages. And you know, nothing is more important than marriage. I remember a sociologist back in the 19th century saying, we neglect marriage at our peril.

Nicky Lee — I think you meant 20.
Sila Lee — Oh, 20 – sorry.

Nicky Lee — You weren’t around in the 19th century.

Sila Lee — I did mean that. And that really resonated with us. We do neglect marriage at our peril. And the church, we need to have it in the forefront.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Sila Lee — This needs to be something that is absolutely front and center. And actually, that’s why we realized the need out there. There is a felt need, not only in the church, but in the community. And therefore, we saw more and more people coming, and we needed to run this on a regular basis so that it’s becoming a norm. This is what we do as a church.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. It’s I love that idea of it’s consistent. It’s ongoing. It’s not just a one-off, you know, it’s not a special day. It’s not a seminar. It’s not one weekend message. How do we stay on top of this?

Rich Birch — Okay. Let’s get real for a second here, Nicky. There is stigma that surrounds marriage enrichment programs. I don’t know whether it’s just me, but I can say as a guy, like I hear like, Oh, we’ve got a marriage thing coming up. And like, there’s something inside of me that just is like, Oh! It’s like, I know, I know that’s like, ah, that’s something I want to be a part of, but I’m, I’m resistant to it. How have you overcome this perception in, you know, in your church through the program, you know, how, how did, how have you overcome that?
Nicky Lee — Well, one way is by just constantly promoting the course. And the absolute ideal to promote the course is when the church leader, the senior pastor, other pastors in the church, say, we did the course and we enjoyed it, it helped us, we benefited from it. And in promoting the course, we we want to make this very clear. This is, as Sila said earlier, this is normal. This is for every couple…
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Nicky and Sila Lee — …whether you’ve got a great marriage or you’re struggling, whether you’ve been married a short time or a long time. And and because of the privacy of the conversations, nobody nobody else knows why a particular couple are there. And it’s sometimes only when a couple at the end of the course write to us.

Rich Birch — Right.
Nicky and Sila Lee — And say, we were having huge issues, sometimes saying we were practically coming apart. And we had no idea.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nicky and Sila Lee — They just come together with all the other couples. Sometimes separated couples have come they meet at the church door they come in as a way of seeking to get back together and no one else knows they are there. So gradually and it took time no we didn’t do this overnight. It took time to break that stigma…
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Nicky and Sila Lee — …to say this is a normal thing to do, as normal as…

Sila Lee — …wearing a seatbelt.

Nicky Lee — …well I was going to say going to the gym.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Love it. Love it. Yes.

Sila Lee — Yeah we go to the gym to keep in good shape and that is completely accepted in our society both in the US and the UK.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Yep. Absolutely.

Sila Lee — And it’s the same with marriage. We want to say marriage investment and particularly in the church is the norm if we want to keep our marriages in good shape – everybody does it.
Rich Birch — Okay, there’s a couple things about the kind of mechanics of the way that you’ve set up um these courses that I think are that are unique and I think you’re part of what God uses. One is you really emphasize the importance of creating like a date night feel in this. This isn’t like a um and this, you know, to me flows out of HTB, but at least as an outsider looking in. You have a hospitality culture, like it’s like, hey, this is a church that wants to serve and this is, is of natural outcome. It has this kind of date night feel. Sila, can you kind of elaborate on that? How important is that in this kind of role of setting an environment where they can kind of invest in that relationship?
Sila Lee — Well, you already nailed it, Rich, by saying as a man, when you have anything that says like a marriage evening or whatever, you’re like, ah, really?
Rich Birch — Yes.
Sila Lee — Do I want to go to that?
Rich Birch — Yes.
Sila Lee — And ah we realize that most people are nervous about coming on something like a marriage course.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Sila Lee — And so this creating of a special atmosphere, like a date, we try and make it as like going out to a restaurant as possible. So we have you know lots and lots of tables for two, low lighting and background music and and it all looks nice. We have you know nice fairy lights and we serve couples, take them to their table, serve them something to eat. And you know when couples come in, they’re nervous, but they look at the atmosphere, they see how nice it is and they go, whoa, this is nice.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Sila Lee — They’ve done this for us.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Sila Lee — And then they see there are quite a few other couples and and and that immediately relaxes them. And the other thing is that that actually is a very powerful way to communicate to couples. We care about you. We care about your marriage…

Rich Birch — Right.

Sila Lee — …enough to take this effort to create a lovely environment. And, you know, that is a sort of message we can say louder, than with any words, through the environment.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Sila Lee — And one of the other things in that we always serve, I mean, different churches do different things. We serve a meal, a simple meal, and some serve snacks, some do dessert, some do, you know, but we’re always serving them when they come in.
And all of our team serve. And that serving again sends a powerful message that in a marriage that’s at the heart of a marriage, we should be serving one another.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.

Sila Lee — And so you know the whole setup and environment is sending a powerful message.

Nicky Lee — And I think that’s why these these courses have grown because people have talked to their friends or their colleagues or their family members, whoever it is, about them and saying we had a great experience wasn’t just what we learned we enjoyed as well.
Sila Lee — And I remember one couple who were actually struggling in their marriage and the wife signed them up, didn’t tell the husband, and – I know.

Rich Birch — Gosh.

Sila Lee — And and they arrived and he really didn’t know what he was coming to and he walked in, and it happened to be it wasn’t in our church it was another church, and it happened to be amazingly well set up and he went whoa oh this isn’t a free date night. Amazing.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, that’s great.

Sila Lee — He had no idea that it was seven nights. And and when he discovered he said, well great – it’s seven free date nights.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good.

Sila Lee — So you know it really does have an impact.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And I know on those those right at the beginning, I get like emotional, particularly, you know, trying to read guys’ eyes and stuff, particularly, you know, where I’m thinking, man, I know that there are, and again, maybe it’s just a stereotype, but I know there are husbands that have been brought to this, then they’re like, okay, fine. I’ll give it one shot. Like, Hey, we’ll show up. And I love that impression of, Hey, this is going to be a date night. It’s fun.

Rich Birch — How do you translate that online? What have you found to kind of the churches that have been doing this? How do how do you continue to make this kind of a positive thing in the online environment as well?
Nicky Lee — Well, we never intended for the courses to be run online.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nicky Lee — We only ran physical courses until the COVID pandemic hit.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Nicky Lee — And then that was the only way we could run them.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nicky Lee — And of course, it was also at a time when many couples particularly needed something like the marriage course, and they had the time and the space to do it.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nicky Lee — So we put them online and suddenly, you know, hundreds of thousands of couples were doing it. But what we always said to them, ah make this a special environment for yourselves. Be alone together in a room, like candles. You might you know create have some background music yourself. Make it like a date night at home. If you’ve got young children, do it after they’re in bed, and so on.

Sila Lee — And put away phones.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Sila Lee — Phones are the biggest issue if people are, you know…
Rich Birch — Right.
Sila Lee — …are doing it online and we say definitely put those aside don’t answer them, set aside this time to focus just on you.

Nicky Lee — And then we heard again and again from couples who’ve done the course online things like I don’t know if we’d still be together if we hadn’t done it.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Wow. Yep.

Nicky Lee — And we thought gosh this really works it works in person – that’s still the best. That’s still the gold standard.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Nicky Lee — But it also works when couples do it in their own homes online.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I know for our church, when we do it online to kind of carry that through, just as an idea for folks that are listening in, we actually make our team makes up like these gift bags for every family and actually delivers them to their home.

Sila Lee — Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah, yeah.
Rich Birch — And it includes like, some sparkling grape juice and like, you know at some candles and a few you know ah little things to try to hint towards this date night feel. Like hey we want you to set this aside we don’t want this to just be like you’re not having dinner and this is just like playing on the end of the table kind of thing. We want you to set it aside that’s…
Sila Lee — Oh, your church is a model church. That’s brilliant.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fun. So one of the things, uh, you know, your courses of do, which may be a surprise for people are listening in is they actually avoid group discussion, which is I, when I first heard this, that surprised me. I was like, well, wait a second. Aren’t we all going to sit around and like talk about how great our marriages are, but we all know things aren’t actually that great. So what led to that decision, Nicky, and how has it impacted engagement particularly?
Nicky Lee — We did this right from the start. And I think it was principally because we knew couples have to learn to talk together as a couple.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nicky Lee — And we we recognize that some people are very good at sharing in a group discussion, but not so good at listening to their to their husband or wife.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Nicky Lee — So we wanted to ah to help them to both learn about good communication, resolving conflict, but also to create habits that they would then continue um on their own at at home. And we also know most couples, probably, I don’t know, 90% of the couples who come on these courses wouldn’t come if there was any group discussion.
Rich Birch — Right.
Nicky Lee — And in a sense, they’re right not to, because they they don’t want to be required to air dirty laundry to other people. And they certainly don’t want their spouse to have the opportunity to wear dirty laundry to other people.
Rich Birch — Yep, yep, yep.
Nicky Lee — We keep talking about the privacy. This helps people to come and it helps people to get the most out of the course.

Sila Lee — And the other thing, it gives us as the the leaders in a church, the confidence that we can say to any couple, you know, again and again and again, um there is no group discussion. This is totally about you and and in a nice environment. And you know we have people who come where one or other or both of them have had affairs. And we have absolute confidence to say to them if you want to try to work your marriage ah out, then you can come, nobody will know. You will just come in with everybody else and and but you will have those discussions privately.

Sila Lee — And honestly, we have over all of these years had great confidence that even where there are quite extreme situations, if a couple come and are willing to commit to those seven evenings, that is a big step.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Sila Lee — And actually, yes, sometimes they we need to suggest they go on and get more counseling, and that’s great.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Sila Lee — But for many, many couples, these conversations in this setting actually is is the catalyst for them to start to connect properly again.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. I think you’ve done a masterful job creating um resources that do push to some significant issues like in there. And um’ it’s always and intriguing to when you hear feedback from people who have been through it to kind of talk about like, oh, there was a week. This week really was profound for us. This, and this conversation, not so profound. It was interesting, but you know, not so profound. And you’ve modeled that with your courses to be able to like, Hey, let’s have this conversation, give you some time. But the fact that it’s time bound is nice too. It’s like, okay, we’re going to take 10 minutes, 20 minutes, long discussion, short discussion. I think it’s just, I think it’s masterful. It’s great stuff.
Nicky Lee — Rich, can I just jump in and say, I think as well because the conversations are a limited time.
Rich Birch — Yeah, of course.
Sila Lee — Yes, like you just mentioned.

Nicky Lee — People have more more courage to address sensitive issues that otherwise they might avoid if it was just open-ended.

Rich Birch — Right.

Nicky Lee — Or might not know how to start those conversations. They know they need to talk about it, but they don’t have a ah forum. They don’t have a setting for it.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Love that. Yeah. Cause it’s like, you know, do I want to open up this can of worms? It’s going to take us five hours to unpack. Uh, but you know, the reality of it is you might have to open up one of those things. Let’s talk about it for 20 minutes. But if we can get that going now, man, imagine the impact.
Rich Birch — So when you look kind of up over the horizon, Sila, how do you envision these courses continuing to serve the global church? Maybe especially in regions where marriage dynamics are a little bit different than you know that than the Western norms. Obviously, things are different than in Kensington, you know. There there you know the world not the whole world is Kensington, you know
Sila Lee — Well, no, but you don’t know what Kensington is like. I mean, we felt, oh, Kensington was quite challenging because we, British, are pretty reserved.
Rich Birch — Yes, yes.
Nicky Lee — We’re way behind you, North Americans.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Nicky Lee — Way behind you. We don’t talk nearly as easily as you do.
Rich Birch — Yes, love it.
Sila Lee — Yeah, I mean, you talk about emotions and feelings and everything that we British tend to be a bit more reserved about that. um So actually, that is why the privacy is so key. But you know, there are some other countries around the world where they’re even behind us, which is rather amazing. And actually, but what we have seen is that this format um is a very um sort of safe, structured environment in which people, there’s a sort of expectation, this is what you do. And yes, sometimes we’ve been to some countries where for the first ah session or on ah on a session we’re doing, um you will see couples just sitting, not even communicating.
Nicky Lee — In some cultures where husbands and wives really don’t talk to each other.
Rich Birch — Oh, wow.
Sila Lee — But that’s the norm.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Sila Lee — But this the the the the structure that that the marriage course is in itself creates a bringing together.
Rich Birch — That’s cool.
Sila Lee — And and that in itself you know, bringing together of a husband and wife, especially perhaps in some cultures where, where sort of men are sort of seen as the leaders and women are sort of inferior. This brings them together equally into the same place to facilitate conversations.
Rich Birch — That’s cool.
Sila Lee — And we’ve heard remarkable stories, um even, you know, even in arranged marriages where there’s been some quite big issues.
Rich Birch — Wow.
Sila Lee — But bringing them together into this place where they both can contribute. One has to listen, one has to speak, et cetera. And it it sometimes takes quite a bit of, you know, encouraging um them to do that. But…
Nicky Lee — And it’s and it’s all about building emotional connection between couples.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Sila Lee — And ultimately, a strong marriage is built on that emotional connection, that understanding and going on understanding.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Sila Lee — As we change, as we realize our partner changes, are we still understanding where they’re at, what their needs are and so on?
Rich Birch — This is like total inside baseball thing I’m going to say here. But I remember the first time I watched the, uh, the, the marriage course materials and there is one of the couples that you interview or is interviewed that is in a, in an arranged marriage. And they mentioned that just in passing. And I was like, what? Like back up. I want to hear more about that. Like they, it’s a great little throwaway kind of like, uh, thing, which is, is amazing.
Rich Birch — So, it’s a fun fun deal.
Nicky Lee — Yeah we we call them our sofa couples.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Nicky Lee — Because we interview loads of couples and we intersperse them through the but marriage course films. They’re easily the best part of the film. We love them too.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool, it’s so cool. Well, friends, I I’m not you know impartial on this thing. I really do think that you should be thinking about um implementing the marriage course, the pre-marriage course in your church. Like i’m not on the you know I’m not impartial on this. I really do think you should do this. First for listeners that are are leaning in this, let’s say I’m a church leader. You know I’m I’ve I’ve been kind of intrigued today. How what would be my first steps I should take, Nicky, to kind of explore this, to understand how you know, how could, where would we start if we were interested in in getting you know this ball rolling or exploring this for our church?
Nicky Lee — I would say to any leader if you’re married, do the marriage course yourselves first. And you may be able to there may be a local church you can join. I think you know any couple will benefit from it. There’ll be things that you talk about perhaps you haven’t talked about for years or perhaps never talked about. You will yeah there are there are always areas in our marriage to grow. And I say that when when a leader couple do the marriage course, pastor couples do it. They understand it at first hand, and then they’re able to talk to others.
Nicky Lee — Some couples have done what we call a little pilot course, they get two or three other couples together, they might do it in a home or they might rotate around their homes.

Sila Lee — And ah but do the do the recipe. So everything, you you know, you might have a meal together, and then you watch the film, but you do the private conversations and all of that.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s good.
Nicky Lee — And add in in that way, couples, then they’re in the position to start promoting the cause to others if they feel they want to do that, and that would be helpful to them.
Nicky Lee — And we’ve done a there’s a resource which is…
Rich Birch — Yeah. The video you’ve provided. Yeah, that’s wonderful.
Nicky Lee — And that actually is the first of our online leaders training videos.

Rich Birch — Perfect.

Nicky Lee — And and this is people who are thinking about running the course. But it’ll give people a very good idea of the sort of nature of the course, what it looks like and opportunity to hear from church leaders, including the person who was our senior pastor, Nicky Gumbel, talking about the benefits to him and Pips of doing the course and why they encourage every couple in the church to do the pre-marriage course or the marriage course as a group.
Rich Birch — Love it. Well, friends, I is there a place online we want to send send people like a website? Where would be the best place for us to so to to link to? We’ll link to that video. We’ll put that video in the notes so they can see that here.
Rich Birch — But where else do we want to send them online?
Sila Lee — Yeah, the the um Alpha USA um ah website…
Rich Birch — Perfect.
Sila Lee — …and then you just put in the marriage course.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Nicky Lee — And there’s also one that is just themarriagecourse.org.

Sila Lee — Which is the global site.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Nicky Lee — That’s the global one.
Rich Birch — Right.
Sila Lee — And then the the specific to North America would be the Alpha USA and then marriage course.
Rich Birch — Perfect. Yeah, that’s just great. Well, I want to just thank you for for what you’ve done with these resources. And, um you know, friends, like I said, I cannot highly, I can’t recommend these anymore. These are is incredible resources. You really should ah lean in and get a chance to to know that. I also just want to honor you guys for your ah work in this area. The fact that you’ve spent so much time, effort, and energy on this, the fact you come on this podcast is is humbling to me.

Rich Birch — You know, there is something about, particularly leaders who are listening in, we need to learn from churches like HTB who are serving in pre-Christian, post-Christian environments around how to engage on these issues. And um you know HTB has obviously been a leader in this and in many ways. This is one of the ways. And so and and every time I interact with somebody from HTB, I’m always struck by your humility. And so You know, I know if I had a resource that one and a half million couples had done, I would be making a much bigger deal of it than you guys are.
Rich Birch — It just seems like, well, we just did this thing in our church and lots of people use it. But I think that’s a part of what God uses. And and I I think that about about Nicky and Pippa as well. Like I’m like, the humility is is is disarming in a beautiful way. So I just want to honor you for that.

Nicky and Sila Lee — Thank you very much.

Rich Birch — So again, give us that website address. Give us that website address again, and then we’ll wrap up today’s episode.
Nicky and Sila Lee — Themarriagecourse (all one word) dot org
Rich Birch — Perfect. That’s great. Thanks so much for being here today. I really appreciate you helping us with these Unprediction episodes.
Nicky and Sila Lee — Oh, thank you. Goodbye.
Rich Birch — Thanks. Thanks so much.

**Mentoring Gen Z Leaders: Insights from Leadership Pathway’s Residency Program with Dave Miller** Jan 09, 2025

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. This January we’re focusing on key “Unpredictions”—timeless truths that church leaders need to be focusing on in 2025 and beyond. In this episode, we’re joined by Dave Miller, co-founder of Leadership Pathway, and are talking about how *the next generation will matter more*.

Are you curious about how your church can effectively engage and empower the next generation of leaders? Tune in to learn how your church can benefit from a residency program and how to set young leaders up for success for the health and growth of the church.

**Empowering Gen Z.** // The success of young leaders depends not on their education or even their passion for Christ, but rather on the quality of coaching they receive from their supervisors. Strong mentorship and intentional development are pivotal in helping these leaders thrive in their roles. Unfortunately, many churches struggle to provide this support due to full schedules and generational disconnects among staff.

**Age of authority.** // Gen Z is more self-reliant, skilled, and innovative, with access to tools and platforms that were unavailable to previous generations. These leaders are reshaping the dynamics of leadership by seeking opportunities that align with their unique talents and ambitions. For example, Dave recalls a young leader who considered social media monetization a viable alternative to being a youth pastor, reflecting a broader trend of independence and resourcefulness.

**Listen to young leaders.** // Churches need to rethink their strategies for engaging young leaders. Start with simple, meaningful conversations to understand their ideas, values, and motivations. Invite them to participate in strategic decision-making or leadership discussions to foster a sense of ownership and make them feel valued.

**Create a customized residency.** // Leadership Pathway’s residency programs address the challenges churches face by providing structured mentorship for young leaders. The two-year program is customized to fit the unique needs of each church, whether they are launching new campuses, planning for succession, or addressing internal growth challenges. These residencies go beyond internships by emphasizing coaching and practical experience, with the goal of producing highly desired, hireable leaders by the program’s end. Leadership Pathway also equips supervisors with coaching skills so they can effectively mentor their residents.

**Build a leadership pipeline now.** // Church leaders constantly face the need to replace team members. Many leaders get caught in a cycle of reactive hiring rather than proactively building a pipeline of future leaders. Start the conversation about developing a residency program now, even if you don’t have an urgent need at the moment. Even a basic landing page on your church website can serve as a starting point for attracting potential residents.

Visit leadershippathway.org to start a conversation about what residency could look like at your church. Plus download the unPredictions Team Playbook for this podcast episode here.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

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***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe***

Do you feel like your church’s facility could be preventing growth, and are you frustrated or maybe even overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your church building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that your church could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe has been there. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead your church to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Licensed all over North America, their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to help move YOUR mission forward.

**Check them out at Risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there get their FREE resource “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build”.**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you decided to tune in here early 2025. We are in the midst of this Un… these Unpredictions episodes. Super excited for these conversations. Today we’re we’re all month long. We’re focusing on these ideas that all of us, really they’re Unpredictions. These were true last year. They’re going to be true next year. We need you to focus on these things. And today we’re talking about the next generation will matter more. That was true last year. It’s even more true this year. The the you know the with lower church attendance rates among millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, it’s critical for us to engage and empower this next generation.

Rich Birch — We want to be focusing our efforts we should be focusing our efforts on uh really bringing this group into leadership bring them as a part of our um our leadership circles, and today I couldn’t think of anybody better than my friend Dave Miller to be a part of this. He runs an organization called Leadership Pathway. They offer a two-year residency program for future church leaders, as well as training, coaching, and consulting services. They match future leaders to the right church and find the ah that find the best team fit.
Rich Birch — Dave Miller has served as a worship and creative arts pastor at churches in Las Vegas, Central Kentucky, and Western Michigan. He’s also spent the last 15 years on the go helping churches at a variety of topics from strategy, technology, facility, redesign. He’s super passionate. He’s a good friend. Dave, so glad you’re on the show today.
Dave Miller — It is great to be here. And when I’m on your podcast, two things happen. One is you pray for us before you hit record. I’m on a lot of podcasts. You’re the only person that does that. Secondly, I just want to talk faster, faster, faster, faster. And I wonder where do you get this content that you read after you hit record? Because half is any of that true, I don’t know, but I appreciate it. And I’m happy to be here talking to you about this topic.
Rich Birch — Well, yeah, Dave, ah Dave’s a friend, ah is a great leader. You should follow Dave and everything Leadership Pathway does, but I just.
Dave Miller — Not a great leader. Why do you say that? Cause listen…
Rich Birch — Stop, stop. I’m cutting you off this and but behind your back to mutual friends, whenever we talk about you, one of my standard go-to lines is I’m like, you know, Dave does this thing where he’s like, I’m just a good old boy from Kentucky. I I don’t know. What do I know? But then when you lean in, you’re like, This guy has got he’s got so much to say on this, you know, on so many things. He’s a he’s a great leader. And so I’m I’m excited to have you on.
Rich Birch — Fill in the picture. Tell us a little bit. You readjust our writing on Leadership Pathway and on you. Tell us the story.
Dave Miller — Well, Leadership Pathway started with some friends. And like a lot of things that start, I, in my arrogance, I was like, well, surely by year five, Vanderbloemen or Slingshot will buy this, right? And I’ll get out of it and run. I want to go work for a cycling shop or something. And, uh, you know, and it started with surely they’ll buy it to surely they’ll take it off my, to like, what what would it cost for me to get out of it? So leaders, we’re crying. People say to me, man, you guys are killing it. Well, I think we’re trying. I think we’re reaping, for those people out there today, and there’s a lot of them starting something, I’m reaping the benefit of being able to say, we just celebrated our seventh year in ministry.
Rich Birch — Amazing. That’s amazing.
Dave Miller — …trying to make it work. We are now, I think our team, it’s not me, it’s the smart people on the other side of the wall, we’re at the point where now that we’ve launched 150 of these, man, the first 40 were rough. And mainly because it was me and a buddy trying to do it. And then we were able to add in some expertise and some smart people with grit and determination and a different thinking genius than the rest of us. And so the last hundred and so have been have gone much, much better and we are trying.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Dave Miller — So anybody out there starting something, launching something in my church or anything, you know this idea of getting beyond year four, so you can now start looking a little longer game, it makes me excited for the next decade. And I have never thought that very much in about 20 years.
Rich Birch — Amazing.
Dave Miller — I’m excited for the next 10 years to see where this is going. I mean, when you talk about something that has been true forever, right? This what we’re gonna talk about today has been true for 2,000 years.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — Paul said to Timothy, try it like this. Do it, like I was reading Titus this morning.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Dave Miller — He’s like, try do this, Titus. And you know in 2,000 years from now, all of the theorists have their ideas of what the church is gonna be. Is it underground, or is it only Life Church? Craig cloned them and it’s little Craig Groeshel’s and we’re all singing Elevation songs. There’s only three songs left. Rich, we’re singing that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Dave Miller — Who knows what it or it’s underground, right? It’s underground, um it’s subversive.
Rich Birch — Right, right. Right.
Dave Miller — We’re but in 2000 years, we will need an older leader. And by old, I mean 33, telling the younger leader. Do it like this, try it like this, avoid this, avoid this pothole. That’s all we’re doing. We’re bringing intentionality to what most of us benefited from, but we’ve lost the handle on for sure. It is getting getting harder and harder. And at the summation of it, we have a we have the most dynamic, talented, express… I mean, this generation is amazing.
Rich Birch — For sure. Yeah.
Dave Miller — We don’t know what to do with them. We don’t, and it’s in athletics. It’s in big business and it’s in the church and small business and startups. We don’t know what to do. And we can go back years and take a lesson for sure.
Rich Birch — So much there. Yeah, I love it.
Rich Birch — So this is why you can tell already, friends, why I love to have Dave here. Now, this is again, you just rolled right over it. Like you offer residency, you coach. And like, I know lots of churches and organizations that celebrate, like we just had our fourth resident and you just rolled over.
Rich Birch — Hey, we’ve done this 150 times. That’s incredible.
Dave Miller — We’ve onboarded, these numbers aren’t big, right? It’s another thing about starting stuff. I am the worst at this. I don’t want to talk about how small it is, right? Last year, we onboarded 10 residents.
Dave Miller — The year before that, we onboarded 11. This year, we’ve onboarded 29.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — We don’t know why, by the way, which is a problem. So I always, I’m telling people, I tell other people like coach, you got to know why you lose, but you really got to know why you’re winning. So you can repeat that. My team is sick of me drilling. Somebody asked me this week, is this baseball? Like how many stats do you want of the common that are making this thing roll? So I don’t know. I would just say we’re going with it.

Rich Birch — Yeah.
Dave Miller — We’re going with it in more and more churches. And our assumptions, ah some I actually some, it’d be my, I wouldn’t say our. My assumptions a decade ago on this topic, before long before Leadership Pathway was a thing. I think I have shed a few of those in the last couple of years, last year for sure.
Rich Birch — Love it. Okay, so bring us up to speed. Like you’re in the thing I love about what you you do is you have your pulse on both churches that are trying to wrestle with this issue. They’re coming to you. They’re saying, hey, we’re trying to figure out how to create some sort of structure where we can have younger leaders be in the mix and coach them well and all that. But then you also have a connection to young leaders who are who are in that those circles and trying to make that happen. So so we can save everybody who’s listening, pull back the, what are the two or three kind of latest ideas that you’re seeing in working with churches or with young leaders as they’re trying to, you know, as churches particularly are trying to create space for young leaders. What are the couple of things that come to top of mind for you?
Dave Miller — Okay, number one, I heard this about 10 months ago. Kristin, who does leads all of our coaches. She’s the frontline of ah helping leaders. She does about 40 a month. It’s unbelievable.
Rich Birch — Amazing, amazing.
Dave Miller — Her grit just stays on Zoom talking to pastors. She said, your resident’s success is going to rise or fall with their supervisor’s ability to coach them, period.
Rich Birch — Yep, that’s good.
Dave Miller — It’s not hinged on level of education. It’s not even hinged on do they love Jesus. Now, people will call me a heretic, right? Where we’ve got some baseline things like, of course, we assume about Christ and his role in our lives and who we are as believers and all those things. But for a couple thousand years, we’ve been wired up to do education and spiritual formation in churches, right? It starts with a sermon. And there’s a Wednesday night or Thursday night thing with the kids. And then in kids ministry on Sunday morning, there’s lessons. And then we’re circling them up groups one on one, whatever it is at your church. We’re forming our spiritual life. And so why are we in this? Why are we in the spot that we’re in, right? It’s that along the way we have like good. Gosh, if I just spoke at the highest level, I just think we hire amazing people at these churches. These people we work with are amazing.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Dave Miller — What do amazing people do? A lot of stuff. They cram 60 hours of work into their 46 hour calendar.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — They are running at such a pace, they’re killing… this is my own story through my 20s and 30s, killing it.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Dave Miller — Probably it might, at least I don’t want to project this, but in my story, workaholism and [inaudible] got me great promotions and pats on the back through my 20s.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — I will tell you.
Rich Birch — But didn’t necessarily make you a good coach. Is that, is that what you’re saying?
Dave Miller — Don’t call people who work for me in those days. There are a few interns who are still in the ministry. And I can tell the story of how I’m proud of that. I can also tell the story of how, probably how they developed, they just kept up. You know, it’s not because I woke up on Wednesday going, what am I going to do to strategically invest in the next generation?
Dave Miller — And more and more when we hear when we hear kids these days, you know?
Rich Birch — Right, right, right, right.
Dave Miller — It’s not 50-year-olds saying that. It’s 35-year-olds who are a little, they’re a little, ah the nice word would be angered. They’re a little bit triggered that this 20-year-old twenty is not going to have to go through, they believe, the same hoops and walk uphill both ways to to get the approval. And nobody did that for me. You know, we hear that a lot. And we’re like, well, you came to the school of hard knocks, right? For every one of you…
Rich Birch — Right. We don’t want to pass that on. Yeah.
Dave Miller — No. We don’t.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Dave Miller — Anyways.
Dave Miller — Oh, 2000, you know, your, for, for, and this is louder and louder and louder. That person’s success is will rise and will crash on your supervisor’s ability to coach them, not instruct them or teach them or pray with them. Its discipleship is in there, but it’s it it’s bigger than that, man. It’s bigger than that.
Rich Birch — Yeah, so so if I’m a church leader today, I’m listening in and I’m like, hey, there aren’t enough young leaders around the table. Like I I was saying to this to you earlier, like one of the things that has struck me with this last year, just the way my stuff has evolved, I’ve ended up at some of the leadership tables of some name brand churches. Insert name brand church that you people who are listening would know. And the thing that has struck me is, man, those the people around those tables are in their 20s and early 30s. The people that are actually running these organizations, they’re very young leaders. Now, I might be listening in, I’m i’m a i’m a leader at a church and I look around and I’m like, that’s just not what’s happening here. What I hear you saying is it could be our issue. We’re just not coaching them well. We’re not, we’re, we’re not… what would be some of those telltale signs of a leader that is coaching next generation leaders well? They’re, they’re, you know, they’re leaning in, they’re doing this. I know there’s a ton that we could talk about there, but what would be some of those, those things?
Dave Miller — I would say number one is their boss, where where it really takes root well, is their boss has an expectation on them. So your your youth group grew by 30% and you baptized a bunch of kids, and you but your intern quit, and your resident has decided suddenly they’d rather be an astronaut than be the next you, right?
Dave Miller — You’re not doing it. It shows up on whatever it is, the scorecard, of the KPI. I’m going to evaluate you on how you’re doing in this area. So where it really takes root, in other words, if there’s more than four people on the team. So we’re, I’m not talking about churches of 15,000. I’m saying 500, 300…

Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah. Yep.

Dave Miller — …some of our favorite places are some of these small places.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Dave Miller — Their boss has an expectation, which would imply somehow they have carved out time. Every church talks for a year about what they’re going to spend per resident, and they’re going to spend about 20 grand. It’s not very much money.

By the sixth month, no church is talking about the money. They’re all talking about once we begin…
Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Dave Miller — …leaders go, wow, this is, I’m talking to them again. I’m developing, I’m getting, well, when we say a feedback loop, when we say a developmental conversation, once you dig into those conversations, what does that create? More conversation, more conversation.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Dave Miller — So how can we carve out time? When these things go sideways, we’ve learned, you know, this might be the second one. We’ve learned when they go sideways, it’s really not on whereas the young resident. That’s another thing I heard from one of one of our people in a room with someone raising their hand, Q and A.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Dave Miller — So what’s the number one reason why when these things go sideways, what’s happening? It’s not the curriculum. It’s not the level of education. It’s not that we all love Jesus. And some of these people get up early and pray more than you and I combined, Rich. They know the word.
Rich Birch — Sure.
Dave Miller — It’s they haven’t had a conversation with their intern for a month.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — Where I’m like, what? She did what she hadn’t said. Yeah, the last one on one, she was on FaceTime heading to the airport, calling it…
Rich Birch — Yeah, right.
Dave Miller — …calling it a development. No, all you’re doing, all you’re doing at that point is just you’re trying to get more out of them than you’re putting in.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — We’ve learned for 2000 years, that doesn’t work.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — It really doesn’t. The thing that’s different today. This generation is smarter. Dr. Tim Elmore, Gen Z Unfiltered. It is the Bible around here. Dr. Tim Elmore, Gen Z Unfiltered. He’s sort of our go-to and he worked for John Maxwell and he lives in Atlanta, you know, not far from. And these amazing churches have been doing this. Now he talks about the the age of authority is lower than ever.
Dave Miller — Here’s how I see this. I’m a huge baseball fan. Rookies come up to Major League Baseball—look it up—younger and younger, what happens? They root for each other. In the 70s, I’m unfortunately a Big Red machine, Cincinnati Reds fan. I was a child. I studied that team.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Dave Miller — They went all the way.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Dave Miller — They would haze each other. It was a miserable experience to be a young baseball player. And Young was 24, 28. These guys today were 18, 19, 20 years old. They’re rooting for each other. There’s no hazing anymore. The age of authority has dropped.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Dave Miller — They’re they show up. They’re smarter than me.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — They’re better than me. They understand they use language that I don’t understand. They get things. They’re watching television. I’m still using Cheers and Friends in my sermons as illustrations. They’re talking about platforms that I don’t even know exist, right?
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Dave Miller — That’s what’s going on.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — It’s frustrating. So for the first time ever, my generation, your, we looked at our bosses and thought we maybe not could have verbalized this, but our parents, or our grandparents, they showed up to the institutions and they saluted because the… We showed up and we kind of rolled our eyes, but we knew we had to put up with our boss.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Dave Miller — This generation, they’re wondering, why do I need a boss?
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — You know, seven out of 10, they’re already monetizing their social media [inaudible]. Kristen was at a thing in Nashville put on by Think last week about the next…

Rich Birch — Yep, yep.

Dave Miller — She met a young leader and he’s he literally said to her, Well, if I don’t get a youth ministry job, I do have 140,000 Instagram followers. I’ll just I’ll fall back on that.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — And I think five years ago, she might have stiffened up and been insulted and wanted to reach out and discipline that kid like it was one of her own. Today, she’s like, yeah, he’s right.
Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, let’s do his own thing.
Dave Miller — He’s right. How are we going to get him to show up at a church and go to staff meetings and sit through things where people 20 years older than him, 10 years old. When I was his age, my boss was super old, Gene Appel, and he was a decade older than me. Think about that.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Dave Miller — I was 25, he was super old, 35.
Rich Birch — Yes. He was. Yes, yes.
Dave Miller — Not a 22 year old, their boss is 40, sometimes older, and the bosses are like, what’s wrong with these kids? I’ll tell you what’s wrong with the kids.
Rich Birch — Nothing wrong with the kids. It’s you. Interesting.
Dave Miller — Yeah. I mean, Forbes this month, Forbes go just look up Gen Z getting fired. I mean, and I’m assuming Forbes is talking to major employers, right?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Dave Miller — Like large places with really smart ah HR departments with developmental plans. 75% of the Gen Z hires in the last year, they’re dissatisfied with. They believe are unprepared. Six out of 10, 60% of these employers admit firing a Gen Z already.
Dave Miller — I mean, where they just graduated in May, or the May before, already fired.
Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.
Dave Miller — Now, I would just say any stat you read like that, I don’t know how much of it’s made up or I don’t know…
Rich Birch — Right. 62% of stats are made up.
Dave Miller — So yeah, and I would say our stats are worse because every church, the small business outside of the top, you know, 20 or 30 in America.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — We’re all small business and small business is harder. It is hard. Small business, we don’t have three HR people to help us with this stuff.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Dave Miller — It’s on us to get it done.
Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good. That’s super clear. I get that. um Again, you’re I know you’re blowing some people’s minds today, which is super helpful. Glad that you’re, you know, on the call. So the first, this whole idea of like, okay, if, you know, the residents that aren’t working out um or if, you know, put it the other way around, the residents that are working out, they’re working out because their boss are coaching them. They’re they’re leaning in on that conversation. So the corollary of that is, hey, if you’re looking around and things are not working out with next generation leaders, we need to be looking in internally at ourselves.

Rich Birch — What other, you know, on this whole area of saying, let’s say I’m a church again, 500 people, and I’m like, okay, I want to create a bigger table. I saw Rich post on this last year and we haven’t done anything on trying to get young leaders around. What would be some practical steps that you would think to try to create that, that early momentum to try to make some space for some, you know, next generation leaders?
Dave Miller — Well, if you could find them, if you can find people younger than 25, college kids. I don’t know how you find, I mean, in a lot of, in a normal church, they, uh, it’s like rare white tigers. I mean, there aren’t very many.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — But if you can get them around the table and just engage, just talk.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — What do you listen to?
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — What are you reading? What do you believe? What do you believe? How, why are you showing up here? You know, my church is not the hippest. We’re up here in Tacoma, Washington, outside of Seattle. There aren’t, there’s not a prevailing church. There are in Seattle, but you know it’s geographic and you gotta get there, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — But but I would say our church is not the hippest place in the world, but there’s a few 20 something year olds. They struggle, they struggle. When you actually engage them, they struggle because they they they have all sorts of ideas, they know how the world works. They have friends that they would never invite to this thing. Never. We still think about, and and you do a great job at this, creating an invite culture whether it’s Sunday morning or in anywhere any at any place in this organization…
Rich Birch — Yes.
Dave Miller — …are we inviting friends?
Dave Miller — And they’re struggling to do that. They have ideas, but what I think they’re hearing is ah, you know, take the trash out. We’ll let you will let you do this piece of it. We just forget.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Dave Miller — We just forget. I mean I think of back in my 20s, there was the super old 35 year old. There was one guy that was like probably 50.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — I think of being like 90.
Rich Birch — Yes.
Dave Miller — He probably, he did the hospitals. You know, we all love these people.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Dave Miller — There are the people when it’s hitting the fan, I’m going in his office, closing the door, having long conversations cause he has time for me.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yes.

Dave Miller — And the rest of it, there were 12 people around the table and the rest of us, I don’t think there was a 30 year old.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Dave Miller — But we were all 22 to 26 leading this big church in a big thing, kind of a leading tip of the spear sort of existence in that era.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Dave Miller — None of us were thinking we don’t know what we’re doing.
Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
Dave Miller — We’re just clueless, we’re just getting up thinking well of course we can do this. How much more times 100 this generation but actually was smart.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.
Dave Miller — Man, they are smarter than ever. I was sensing this, yeah gosh, 12 years ago, I was running for a small college. These kids, they’d show up already more talented than the grads going out of there.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — They could speak, they could sing, they could write songs, they knew technology. They also um, you know, maybe they were immature as ever, but they understood what their Enneagram was and their Strength Finders. They were well aware of things that I probably didn’t even get into until my mid to late thirties.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — They’re already there. Now I’m watching them as super old 30 year olds.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — And they’re doing things like leading some of the name brand church production areas or the ones that have continued to walk…

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.
Dave Miller — …they are in some chairs influencing things at the highest level. That’s who we’re dealing with.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — Why would I say in that person’s way?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Dave Miller — We’re afraid, we’re afraid.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.
Dave Miller — Here’s the number three, who’s caused more harm to the cause of Christ? Name one that’s younger than 30.
Rich Birch — Oh gosh. Oh my goodness. That is a…
Dave Miller — Dude, the public tanks that have taken us down are guys like us, 50, 50-year-old.
Rich Birch — Right. That’s true. Yep.
Dave Miller — I mean, like four in one month in Dallas or something this past summer.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Dave Miller — The though though one in a couple in Chicago, right? One up in Seattle.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Dave Miller — It’s a bunch of white guys that are in their 50s and 60s.
Rich Birch — Yep. Right.
Dave Miller — It’s not the 23-year-old.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — The ones I meet that are doing stuff, man, they’re amazing. So…
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Dave Miller — Why would we?
Rich Birch — No, that’s a good insight. That’s a good insight. And and I think, you know, we we have to figure out, you know, I would put myself in this camp for sure. I was I was born in 1974, do the math friends, the lowest birthright year of the 20th century. And so I am classic Gen X. Literally, I am like middle of the, I am like right down the center Gen X. every All that stuff about Gen X is me. And you know we I’ve spent a lot of my time you know trying to take stuff from the Boomers and give it to the next generation, but we’ve got to accelerate that. We’ve got to figure out, okay, we we can’t we can’t wait. You know, we can’t just keep kind of wondering about these issues. We’ve got to keep you know taking some steps on this. Why don’t we talk ah specifically about Leadership Pathway? Talk to me about, I’m not sure why my dog is barking at me. It’s the you know…
Dave Miller — You’re such a pro.
Rich Birch — …Grizzly, the ah the podcasting dog dog. The yeah it’s my That’s my 20-something daughters dog who’s at our house today. So ah very appropriate. That’s why she’s that’s why he’s barking at us, I’m sure.
Dave Miller — It’s very authentic unSeminary.
Rich Birch — Anyway anyways, yeah, very authentic, very, yeah. So Leadership Pathway, talk to us about what you actually do. We’ve kind of danced around a little bit. What what is the, how do you help churches with this issue? I’m sure there’s people that are, man, gosh, I got to figure out how to get young leaders around me. How do you help, you know, from that perspective, from the church’s side, say, we got to, we got to fix this this year. We’re not, we want to leave this year with more young leaders engaged in the conversation, leading in our church. What does Leadership Pathway do?
Dave Miller — We convince them to start. That’s what we do. And we call it residency because we know what an intern is.
Rich Birch — Yep.

Dave Miller — People are like, this is a residency? What, is there a master’s involved? If you want there to be, there’s a master’s involved.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — We work with churches offering masters and MDivs and full on accredited courses in their building or online or just paying for whatever level of education they want to pay for with these residents. But a residency is a two-year process of coaching by which they are landed, we would say, highly desired and hireable at the end of that.

Rich Birch — That’s amazing.
Dave Miller — It’s a conversation. It really is. It is a coaching um platform. I was talking to one of those large, what’d you call them, name brand, one of the top 45.
Rich Birch — Name name brand churches. Yep.
Dave Miller — And he’s like, so what are you monetizing and what are we getting? And I’m like, we’re gonna push you off the diving board. We’re like the people that walk up behind, you’ve been thinking about this for years.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Dave Miller — And I mean, for years. We’ve had conversations now for seven years. And they’re still like, well, we’re praying about it. And the 30 something year old is now a 40 something year old. And the last four rookies all quit.

Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — You don’t have to follow them. They’re going to quit. Because, it’s you know, they’re like, why am I doing this?
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — Um, so we help churches architect a customized, very custom to their location, who it is beyond even denomination and geography and temperature and size of the church. What’s going on right now? Did your, are you going through succession plan?
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Dave Miller — Are you launching four campuses in the next four years or are you in decline? We’re working with all of those places. We’re working with all.
Dave Miller — It’s one of the assumptions I probably made a decade ago that I’ve backed off of, which is, well, we’re only gonna work with the best and brightest and name brand, big… No. Some of our favorite best success stories, are churches smaller than 500, if they’ll commit to it. The ones that are desperate, honestly. They’ve hired a couple of rookies, they didn’t make it for a number of reasons. They’ve tried internships. They didn’t like what they got out of it. They’re still doing internships, but they want to take it up and not lose them.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — So it’s all of that. It’s a conversation. There are general, I would say, um markers along the way. But man, when we say pathway, it’s like we’re all going to the summit up there, and there’s a bunch of us, and some go east, some go, and we circle a few times this mountain…
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — …some take the well-worn path, others are just, they need ropes, and it gets crazy. We’re all We all sort of get there, and I think our coaches would say, ah they’re very talented, they start on a sprint. At some point in the first 90 days, we need to have a we we need to have a safe fail.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Dave Miller — And we start talking, and then it’s a a lot of talking and coaching. First Christmas, first Easter, first summer…

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — …all of those things that we all forget.
Rich Birch — Right, right, right, right.

Dave Miller — We all forget. It’s moving faster, and it’s harder than ever, by the way. It’s harder today than when you and I started. Expectations are through the roof. Oh my goodness. The pay hasn’t moved, by the way. But the expectations are, times three, add 50%.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Dave Miller — The second-year, Rich, why do churches only do 10 months, I don’t know, or a year? Because the second year is the payoff.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Dave Miller — It’s the payoff for the people who now believes and trusts. They believe and they trust these people actually do want more for them, and now the deeper work gets to happen in their personal life.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Dave Miller — And the payoff for those church leaders who now, they might be paying, you know, 20 grand, they might be spending 20 grand on this person, and they’re making, up in air quotes, a full-time contribution, running, we’ve seen them run guest services, lead worship at a campus, lead production at a campus.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — They are, in essence, functioning like a middle school pastor.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Dave Miller — Or they they’ve architected and now launched the fifth grade ministry to help kids transition to middle school in these churches, but they’re a resident.
Rich Birch — Love it. Right.
Dave Miller — And it’s sort of like, it’s sort of like the last few months of a medical residency where this person is doing everything the doctor’s doing.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Dave Miller — They’re just clocking time until they sign the paperwork…

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — …and they are officially now the doctor, but they’ve really been doing this once.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Dave Miller — That’s what we see in the second month. I’m sorry, in the second year.
Rich Birch — In the second year.
Dave Miller — That’s what we see. That’s what we do.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good.
Dave Miller — It is It’s a coaching platform. We coach the coaches. We coach your downline leaders, how to develop Gen Z, how to develop young leaders.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Dave Miller — And we’ve learned we have to sort of hand it out over time. Like if I just back the truck up and unload it, they’ll never do it. It’s like…
Rich Birch — Right. Okay. Right, right.
Dave Miller — It’s like, if you knew what we’re going into, when you and Chrissy first got married, would you have ever had, kids? You love your kids, would you have ever done it?
Rich Birch — Yes. Right. That’s true.
Dave Miller — If you could have really seen the future. And I think a lot of college, I mean, I’m sorry, a lot of church leaders were like, they haven’t started a residency yet, but it’s sort of like a young couple saying, so what is it, what’s up with how to choose a high school in college?
Dave Miller — No, we’ll get there, we’ll get there. Just start.
Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Let’s just start now. Start start baby steps and…
Dave Miller — And so we, gosh, we’re on our 11th, eighth, ninth, 10th, 11th resident. with Some of these churches were in our fourth and fifth year.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — They start with one. They add two. They add five. One doesn’t make it.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — They add four. And these-term relationships where this stuff has taken root in this church, it’s sort of like they can’t go back. It’s it’s like a lot of these things.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — Organizationally, we will never go back to just cramming as much as we can get done in a week.Because we’ll never multiply our… I got the company shirt on. Who’s the next you? This idea, you know John and Dave Ferguson, you know multiplication instead of addition.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yes. Yes.

Dave Miller — The base level, the number one place we’re missing it. We expect this to happen in our groups or our campuses.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — But the youth, kids, worship, production, guest services person, have they is there anyone on their team that could do their job tomorrow? Because that’s really what we mean.
Rich Birch — That’s what we’re talking about. Yeah, absolutely. Long term for sure.
Dave Miller — And that we struggle right there to give it away…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Dave Miller — …and then know how to follow up. It takes grit. It takes some grit to get there…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Dave Miller — …to have developmental conversations every week on difficult topics. Once they learn how to do it, it’s like these organizations are not going to go back to just banging it out and getting it done.
Rich Birch — Right. No.
Dave Miller — Everybody is looking at who’s the next them. And it goes back to Paul and Timothy.

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — The stuff I, 2 Timothy 2:2… the things I’ve shown you, go show to somebody else. And maybe in the eighties, we missed that.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Dave Miller — I don’t know.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true. Well, and the thing that I love about what you guys do is, listen, I’ve spent a lot of time in that you know executive pastor seat. And it you know once your church gets to a certain size, it feels like we are constantly looking for team members. Like we are every Monday morning, we’re waking up thinking, okay, who we who do I got to replace? Who do I need to go find? And but but what happens is we get caught on this treadmill. We don’t get up and over and look at ah at ah the bigger issue, which is, okay, well where like we need to be building a pipeline or maybe even a leadership pathway, one would say, of you know leaders that are coming in that could be ready two years from now, three years from now.
Rich Birch — And friends, if you’re listening in, what I know is even if today you’re not, here we are, January, 2025, you don’t have like a burning hole in your organization you need to fill, but I can guarantee you, at the end of the next two years, you’re going to have one. And so what if we started now, got a couple of residents in and started that that conversation. So I want to encourage people to drop by leadershippathway.org. What you should do is actually schedule a call with Dave and his team. Just click on the link there. You can jump onto a call. They’ll get specific with you. Today, we’ve kind of talked at the philosophical level, you you know, kind of the high level 30,000 feet. Let’s get into your specific issues. Tell them that on the call. Say, hey, I heard you guys on the unSeminary.
Rich Birch — Just cut out all that stuff. I want to talk to you about my issues I got. And leverage that time to actually get to the to the heart of it. What other ways do we want to point people to kind of connect with you guys to connect with Leadership Pathway?
Dave Miller — Yeah, they should they should literally go to that website. There’s a connect button. I don’t…

Rich Birch — Right.

Dave Miller — Talking is free and it’s inexpensive.
Rich Birch — Right.
Dave Miller — Whether it’s an hour or a 30 minute phone call on the way in the car, it’s fine. It’s fine.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Miller — Starting talking about it is the thing.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Dave Miller — It is not the canyon to get… I tell church at least twice a week, I’m in a conversation.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Dave Miller — And it’s like, you have a Squarespace website? Yeah, okay. A ninth grader could put a landing page up by 3 p.m. today that says, my church’s residency, click here, name and email, start talking.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. That’s good.
Dave Miller — I mean… And you’re like, really? That’s it? What about accreditation with the state? You know If you go down that road, I’ll see you in three years, but start talking about your residency right now. And we get there by…
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Dave Miller — …you know, taking our own advice. We’ll talk really about it because it’s talking is what it is. And so go to the website and click the contact button or something. It’s there.
Rich Birch — Dude, so good. So good. All right. Well, I really appreciate this. Appreciate you, Dave. Cheering for you. I’m a fan. I love, I’m also, you know, on this advisory board team, whatever that is. And it’s happy to get your emails and say, this is great. More people should do this, um which you know which is which is wonderful. So ah thanks so much, Dave. Appreciate you being here today.
Dave Miller — All right, man. Thanks for having me. Go unSeminary. We’re fans, we’re big fans.

**Healthy Digital Habits: How Churches Can Support Families in a Tech-Driven Culture with Natalie Frisk** Jan 08, 2025

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re continuing with our special series called *unPredictions 2025* – these are timeless topics that will keep shaping church leadership in 2025 and beyond. Today we’re talking with **Natalie Frisk**, the director of curriculum at **Raise Up Faith**, about how *parents will be worrying about their kids*.

Raise Up Faith is an organization which offers a subscription-based platform, providing kids ministry content which communicates the stories and truths of the Bible in rich and meaningful ways.

In a world where digital media is deeply integrated into daily life, parents often feel overwhelmed—unsure how to guide their children in developing healthy digital habits. Tune in as Natalie shares her insights on how churches can address the challenges parents face while navigating technology’s rapid evolution and how innovative digital tools can enhance kids’ ministry.

**Parents in today’s digital world.** // Parents of every generation have felt in over their heads at times and don’t understand what their kids are thinking or doing. Today a lot of this disconnect centers around technology because the children growing up today are digital natives, fully immersed in this way of life. Parents and ministry leaders alike need help guiding kids, and organizations like Raise Up Faith are here to support churches as they come alongside parents.

**Recognize that today’s kids are digital natives.** // Today’s children are fully immersed in technology and have been part of the digital age from the beginning. The screen isn’t just a form of entertainment for them, but is fully a part of how they experience the world. There is no distinction between online and offline lives and we need to recognize this reality.

**Foster healthy media consumption habits.** // The idea of “digital doughnuts” suggests that while some media may not be inherently bad, it should be viewed as “sometimes food” rather than a staple. Encourage families to create a balanced “media diet” by distinguishing between healthy and sometimes media. Churches can help parents teach children to reflect on their media consumption—asking questions about how specific content makes them feel and whether it fosters connection or disconnection. This process helps develop digital discernment from an early age.

**Offer resources to parents.** // Not having grown up as digital natives, parents don’t have the same level of familiarity with digital spaces and the complexities of being a teen or child in a digital world. Parents struggle with questions like when to give their child a phone or how to manage healthy digital habits. Churches can step in as guides, offering resources and fostering open discussions to empower families.

**Demonstrate wise use of digital media.** // Churches have the opportunity to model wise use of media right from the pulpit and stage. Incorporating high-quality, biblically-based video content can create engaging and meaningful learning experiences for kids. However, it’s important to strike a balance, using video to complement live teaching rather than replace it. The curriculums Raise Up Faith offers provide resources for churches to integrate rich, creative content alongside in-person instruction, enhancing both engagement and spiritual growth.

**A resource to help guide leaders and parents.** // Raise Up Faith has a resource called “Mix It Up: Digital Media in Your Kidmin Space” – great for ministry leaders navigating conversations with parents who are digitally hesitant. It covers three reasons why to use video in kids’ ministry and links to organizations that will be helpful in your church context, plus resources to share for at-home use.

You can learn more about Raise Up Faith at www.raiseupfaith.com. Register for free at their website to try out sample resources and see how they can work for your church. Plus download the unPredictions Team Playbook for this podcast episode here.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Man, I am so glad that you’ve decided to join us today. We are here in the midst of these conversations we’re calling unPredictions 2025. You know, we’re looking at things that were true last year, are going to be true this year, and I’m convinced are going to be true for years to come.
Rich Birch — One of them we’re talking about today is parents will still worry about their kids. The digital age continues to present new challenges for parents. Churches have a unique opportunity—your church does—to provide guidance and support, particularly in the realm of kids ministry. Kids ministry is so critically important, ah whether it’s from, you know, sermons focused on raising kids in a digital age or offering comprehensive family counseling, that sort of thing. There’s ample space for your church to jump in and make significant impact. This is the year you could do that.
Rich Birch — Today we’re excited to have Natalie Frisk with us. She is with an organization called Raise Up Faith, RaiseUpFaith.com. They’re an international team of Jesus followers with thousands of hours of kids ministry experience, theological degrees, and unique partnerships ah partnerships with leading faith and media or and they’re sorry with leading faith and media organizations around the world. They’ve mo mobilized their experience as kids ministry experts to build an incredible platform that provides everything you need to build a thriving ministry. And Natalie is the big dog over there, curriculum director. Natalie, welcome. So glad you’re here.
Natalie Frisk — Oh, so happy to be here. Thanks for having me again, Rich.
Rich Birch — Yeah, so honored to have you back on the episode. And when we were thinking about this, ah literally, you are the first person on my list. I’m like, we got to get Natalie back on. Super excited to have you on today. So fill out the picture, kind of give us a bit of about you, ah you know, about the organization. Tell us a little bit more before we jump in.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, absolutely. I was in church ministry for 15 years and jumped into this role. It’s been almost two and a half years, which has been amazing. Raise Up Faith is a beautiful organization, really um Jesus-y. I have prayed more intensely with this team than any team I’ve ever been on in the past. It has been incredible.
Natalie Frisk — um I am here in Canada. I am just outside of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. And I’m married to Sam, and I’ve got a 13-year-old named Erin. And the new addition to our family has been a dog, Casey, who is…
Rich Birch — Love it. Casey, the podcasting dog.
Natalie Frisk — Oh, man, just wait. Put a mic in front of her. Forget it.
Rich Birch — Yes. Love it.
Natalie Frisk — So that’s been fun. And, um, yeah, I am the director of curriculum for Raise Up Faith and it has been a joy and a privilege to get to, um, just deliver really great quality, uh, content to to folks and also see what else is out there and kind of curate content and, um, bring in some partnerships, um, for us to share other content on our site. It’s been awesome.
Rich Birch — Yeah, fill out tell us a little bit more about Raise Up Faith for folks that haven’t heard…
Natalie Frisk — Yeah.
Rich Birch — …like, if you bump into somebody at a conference and they’re like, Raise Up Faith, tell me about that. What what is that? Help us kind of fill that out a little bit more.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, thank you for asking. Great question. We’re a curriculum platform. It’s a subscription model. So think Netflix for curriculum. So instead of um locking in with one curriculum, which is is not a bad thing, um you have actually access to 18 different curriculum, including we’ve got three VBSs up on on there as well with a fourth coming out in like hours.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Tis is the season, right?
Natalie Frisk — It sure is.
Rich Birch — People are thinking about VBS right now.
Natalie Frisk — It sure is. And yeah, and and like heaps of music and and worship songs and stuff like that for kids. And um it’s just a really neat, it feels really like kingdom to me because you’ve got some of the best quality content from different organizations and all pulled together and then you can access it. So if you choose to kind of lock and land in one scope and sequence of a specific curriculum you absolutely can do that and access it all. But then if you think oh man I’d love to have a couple of extra songs…

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — …about that thing you can really easily kind of find them and add them in. Or you need extra, I mean, you fill in the blank, coloring pages, games, activities, whatever, because your church has decided to run a couple of extra programs. You can you can get it all there. So it has been really fun to kind of um research and and get my feelers out into the world ah to see where there are some gaps as well.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Natalie Frisk — And so we’re starting to into the into this new year, kind of um look at places, new partnerships of where we can develop new content um…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Natalie Frisk — …or pull in existing content. And so nothing is out in the open air yet, but some exciting stuff is on the way.

Rich Birch — Pay attention!

Natalie Frisk — Yes!

Rich Birch — Pay attention for big announcements.
Natalie Frisk — Stay tuned!
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Well, and yeah, I have been impressed friends when I’ve had a chance to kind of dig around a little bit in your service. And it’s funny, I, you described it as the kind of Netflix of curriculum and I hadn’t thought of that, but I I was struck by just how much variety and how much is there. It’s, it really is incredible. It’s, it’s a great resource for folks for sure.
Rich Birch — But today, I want to leverage the fact that you see a lot of different churches, a lot of different contexts. You know, what we’re trying to do in this time of year is to encourage people to be thinking, hey, like in this conversation, we should really be thinking about our kids’ ministry in a strategic way. We should be thinking about how we’re interacting with kids in ah and families in a strategic way. What are some of those issues that bubble to the surface that when you think of parents that like at a you know, almost universal, almost global level that they’re wrestling with that as us as church leaders, we should be thinking about what would be one of those or or a handful of those that would pop to the surface for you.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah. Oh my goodness. I think that parents do now presently and always have felt in over their head in some way, shape or form.
Rich Birch — True.
Natalie Frisk — Whether that’s been, I think historically it’s been, you’d hear the phrase, I don’t know what my kid’s thinking. I don’t know what is going on, you know…
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — …the you know you look back various generations and you you you know you can see the the the traits come out and bubble to the surface you know. You know think back hippies had parents too.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Natalie Frisk — And i’m sure those you know those parents were like i don’t know what my kid’s doing.

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — You know you jump into the grunge scene of the 90s and those parents i’m sure went i don’t know what my kid is doing.

Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — And and so parents, they feel in over their heads. And today we’ve got parents who feel in over their heads. And I think a lot of that centers around um technology, um ah ah helping their kids navigate this technological landscape that parents didn’t have to navigate when they were kids or teens.
Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.
Natalie Frisk — And so parents are feeling not just like, inexperienced in how to parent that, but didn’t have the experience. They’re inexperienced in what it was like to live it. And so feeling that gap. And and I think you know no one feels confident to navigate a digital landscape that um hasn’t been navigated before. And um we all we all, ministry leaders and parents included, need help in trying to parent well while guiding um kids…
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — …through ah these these we I love the phrase healthy digital habits. Because what is what does that even mean and do you know anyone with those? Because I would like to meet them.

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — So what does that all look like I think is a really important conversation to have, and to have in front of our kids because that’s how they’re going to learn um what that looks like for themselves too.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, maybe let’s, let’s dig into that a little bit. What, you know, when you think about for a church leader, it’s listening in, you know, I, what you’ve described is a, is a, you know, the kind of question that we see in front of us. It’s not like we see parents wrestling with this. What would be a few things that you would suggest we kind of think about or frame our discussion with ah the parents in, in our churches? How how should we, how should we work through this?

Natalie Frisk — Yeah, I think, um, was it Dallas Willard that used the phrase being a non-anxious presence? Was it, was it Willard?
Rich Birch — Oh, I think so. I think that was Willard. I think that was Willard. Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — Okay, yeah, um, I think that’s something that is really important, is even more so important within a digital landscape. We we get kind of frenetic when it comes to to to digital things. I realize this is not a ah visual medium, but I picked up my phone just to, like, there’s this sense of when my phone’s in my hand, I’m not really focused on the person in front of me. And that’s probably true 98% of the time.
Natalie Frisk — Occasionally, there’s a some type of rationale for it. But so then I think we just need to, like, take a breath, admit the reality that we don’t have a great perspective ourselves. I don’t have a great perspective myself on really kind of like a healthy, balanced digital experience. But I am learning every day and I’m trying to sort out what this looks like in my own life, in my life as a parent. And being honest about the ah pitfalls, I guess.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good.
Natalie Frisk — We we haven’t caught up um to the advancement of technology.
Rich Birch — No, right.
Natalie Frisk — Like we we haven’t been able to. So when you think about the rate of technological advancement and then us trying to like build our own kind of guardrails around it, we’re just getting to the place where we realize, oh yeah, we need guardrails.
Rich Birch — Right, yes.
Natalie Frisk — So there’s there’s that there’s that bit…

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — …just like the honest, open reality of the grappling with that we’re doing.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, this is an issue.

Natalie Frisk — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And even even you know the ah the idea of, hey, we we need to acknowledge that parents are struggling with this. This this is a real issue that there’s not um you know It may not be an issue for you, senior leader, but it is for parents in your in your church. They’re they’re thinking about these issues. They’re wondering, you know hey, should I when do I give my kid a phone and do I give my kid a phone? And that’s like a real conversation that they’re, that they’re having.
Natalie Frisk — Oh man. Absolutely.
Rich Birch — How how do you, how do we help them? How do we help families wrestle with this idea that like, um, this doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that we’re going to be able to put back in the box. It feels like, Hey, this is here to stay.

Natalie Frisk — Yeah.
Rich Birch — So, so, you know, I don’t know, although I might want my kids to become Amish, I don’t know that they will. Like, I don’t know that we’re all going to move on to the farm and just have a phone out in the garage. Like, I don’t think that’s going to happen.

Natalie Frisk — Yeah.
Rich Birch — But so how do we, how do we work through that? How have you seen that? Um, how do we do that as a church?
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, I think it’s just like recognizing, identifying, um admitting that our kids are, they’re digital natives. They’re they’re beyond…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Natalie Frisk — …they’re they they have been born into a world where their parents birthing them probably had a phone in their hand in that moment.
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — You know what I mean?
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. A hundred percent.

Natalie Frisk — Like there’s there’s no there’s no question that our kids have been fully immersed. And so the screen isn’t just an entertainment piece for them, like the TV screen probably was for us when we were growing up. It’s actually part of their communication sphere.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Natalie Frisk — It’s it’s it’s actually fully how they experience the world. There’s no um distinction anymore between online and offline lives. They’re integrated. um And we just need to recognize that that that is part of the the reality of the situation.

Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — And and not I think that there are there are certain battles to be fought within that, but I don’t think the battle is let’s get rid of all the screens. I just i think that’s silly um at this point.
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — Even how brains have been you know shaped and shifted and how kids learn has been changed and challenged by the digital world. Is that a bad thing? Is that a good thing? I don’t know that it’s either. I think it just is.
Rich Birch — It’s a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Natalie Frisk — Throughout history, when we have shifted our, you know, educational platforms and models, like there was time when a book didn’t exist.
Rich Birch — Right, right.

Natalie Frisk — And then a book existed. There was time when radio didn’t exist and then it existed, right?
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — Like we have gone through these seasons before, but we’ve just never experienced it in a rate that is so, um, fast and fast and furious coming at us.
Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — So, um, it definitely takes some time to absorb that and then to be able to respond appropriately. But I think that we’re shifting into the phase of whatever this generation is that is learning how to respond appropriately.
Rich Birch — Yeah.

Natalie Frisk — So I think we’re on the cusp of something, Rich.

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I want to come back to something you said there ah in a minute.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah.
Rich Birch — I want to put a pin in this idea of, OK, how do we do this corporately? But you said earlier um this idea of like healthy habits, like what what is that? There tou know, what were the kinds of things that we we should be thinking about or maybe even like people look to us, you know, in the church ah to help with their kids. And they they look to us to help them. And this has been, you know, for thousands of years, actually, they’ve looked at the church to to kind of help them navigate. What would be some of those kind of healthy habits that we could try to help families to encourage? What could that look like?
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, so I actually have stolen this line from a colleague of mine, past colleague of mine named Duncan. He coined this term, I think. Maybe he stole it from someone else. Who knows? We’ll just keep passing…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Natalie Frisk — …the the the gratitude along. This idea of digital donuts. Are donuts bad for us? Well, we know now as kids as kids are taught there’s no “bad” food, there’s just “sometimes” foods.
Rich Birch — Okay. Yeah. I love it. Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — So there’s certain media that’s probably just “sometimes” media. um But there is actually, in the same way that there’s healthy anytime foods, there is actually healthy media. And so helping kids understand what it looks like to have um some…

Rich Birch — Good.

Natalie Frisk —…they’re learning some digital discernment is what they’re learning. So, you know, prompting kids from a really early age, you know, like after watching that, do you feel do you feel good or do you feel kind of kind of bad?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Natalie Frisk — Like, like getting that down to that really simple kind of helping kids feel…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Natalie Frisk — …what is the experience like for them?

Rich Birch — What is that doing to me? What is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Natalie Frisk — Exactly, exactly.
Natalie Frisk — I mean, you can do this with lots of different things, you know? There’s a certain genre maybe of of reading a book that a kid might… Actually, it it does it ah it doesn’t do good things for them. And so helping them to to navigate, do I feel better or worse after reading that kind of a kind of a ah story? I feel worse. Well, maybe that’s not the type of story that you want to read.

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — Similarly with media. Do you feel better? Do you feel worse?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Natalie Frisk — Do you feel closer to people in community somehow? So, I mean, video games are such a great kind of um thing to to consider with this. I know that um my my daughter’s 13, she’ll jump on at some point in the evening for maybe half an hour, or 45 minutes, an hour of playing some game online with her friends.
Natalie Frisk — Now these are friends who for a number of different reasons she wouldn’t get to hang out with um in physical proximity and she’ll jump on and I hear gut-wrenching laughter. And I hear you know just like everything you would hear if you had kids sitting around playing a board game in your living room you know.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Natalie Frisk — Just and so I can tell when she steps out of that experience, it has been so much joy for her. And so you know if if that had the opposite effect, if she walked out of that and you know the world was hanging around her shoulders, I would say maybe…

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

Natalie Frisk — …is that a good use of ah your your your evening time or…
Rich Birch — Your evening. Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — Or was that, did that make you feel closer to your friends and um the experience of what it is to be in community with them? So there’s that.
Natalie Frisk — And I think just taking those checks…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Natalie Frisk — …whatever the media is that our kids are consuming.
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — I was in the doctor’s office the other day…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Natalie Frisk — …and there was a two-year-old and he was very loudly watching something on a parent’s tablet.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Natalie Frisk — And you know this is the thing we do we hand their kids a tablet when when we’re in those spaces.
Rich Birch — Yes. Little Bluey or something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Natalie Frisk — You know I would have given anything for it to have been a little Bluey. It was it was something called Skibbity Toilet…

Rich Birch — Oh yes. Oh my goodness.

Natalie Frisk — …which just saying that i’m embarrassed that those words have come out of my mouth but there you have it.

Rich Birch — Yes. There it is. It just happened.

Natalie Frisk — And and not only was it so if if he was just watching that I would think um it’s kind of a you know…

Rich Birch — It’s kind of weird.

Natalie Frisk — …it’s a sometimes food…

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Natalie Frisk — …you know um but he turned it into a communal experience for us all in the waiting room…

Rich Birch — Okay.

Natalie Frisk — …by by providing commentary to us all.

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — So i’m sitting this this young kid that’s sitting beside me we’re both laughing our heads off at this kid and it turned into actually a really adorable just kind of found community experience.
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — And so you anyway it’s a mixed bag.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Natalie Frisk — And I think that we need to recognize that it’s a mixed bag. And we also need to help our kids discern um how all of this is navigated in that way.
Rich Birch — I don’t know if I want to encourage people that are listening in if they’re not aware of what Skibbity Toilet is…

Natalie Frisk — I I can’t.

Rich Birch — …to to either go and check it out or to avoid it like at all costs. Like well I’m not sure what’s better for you, friends. So yeah I’m going to leave that to your own discernment. If you don’t understand what we’re talking about, it’s fine. You’re probably fine, actually. You can move on.
Natalie Frisk — You probably yeah have a better, richer, deeper life, yeah.
Rich Birch — Yes, OK, I’m going to play a little bit of devil’s advocate here. So which I don’t know if that’s the right thing to say on a on a church leaders podcast.

Rich Birch — But so we know this like I think you’ve established. Well, OK, this is there’s this is not going away. There this is how, you know, our children are being formed. um You know, this is a part of yeah I think that’s a very that image of parents ah birthing children with a phone in their hand. That is very that’s a that’s powerful image. I think that’s true.
Rich Birch — Um, so what do we do as a church? Like, should we just avoid all digital media then? Like maybe this should just be like a, you know, a digital free zone. We’re not going to, we’re going to rip down all the screens. We’re not going to do anything. Or should we be, you know, how should we be thinking about this in our context, kind of as like organizations trying to help people navigate this stuff?
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, I mean this is a question that I kind of wrestle with and wrestle through every single day in in the job that I do. I think it’s modeling wise use of media.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Natalie Frisk — It’s modeling it right from the quote unquote pulpit or stage.
Natalie Frisk — Man, there are ways that we can utilize really rich media. I mean, I think of the Alpha course. It’s a beautiful, beautiful example of that.

Rich Birch — Yep.
Natalie Frisk — You have these short videos that are rich and powerful, and if somebody attempted to teach the same kind of thing or or kind of navigate those conversations, it would take a really highly experienced individual to do that. And it would limit um what’s able to be done um right around the world. um And so similarly within um kids curriculum, we we view that the same. um We have these brilliant Bible stories that are taught in rich and meaningful ways um with utilizing um all of the different digital mechanisms that kids are used to in their learning.

Natalie Frisk — Just as an offshoot, my team picked up on the fact that um YouTube houses so many different things that um um she has wanted to know how to do. For example, um she took basically took Photoshop courses, and I’m air-quoting…

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Natalie Frisk — …but off of YouTube…

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — …has learned how to do Adobe Animate.

Rich Birch — Yep. Right.

Natalie Frisk — Has learned all of these things off of YouTube. The skills that are able to be translated from video in a short period of time are incredible.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s powerful.
Natalie Frisk — And I think the same can be said for our um certain aspects of biblical teaching. um There’s the learning some of the key nuts and bolts, getting story across presented in that way. There’s always going to be space to contextualize a message to the ministry setting that you are in. I don’t think this is just saying the screen only forever and ever. Amen. I think it’s a both/and.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Natalie Frisk — And it’s learning how to navigate that in a in a wise way, recognizing people’s attention spans and and you know kids attention spans are more limited than they used to be. I think they’re actually longer than we give a lot of kids credit for.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Natalie Frisk — It’s that they don’t have attention for boring.
Rich Birch — Right, right, right.
Natalie Frisk — They they have attention for things that engage them. And so I think one of the things that media can do well is engage meaningfully.

Rich Birch — Right, right.
Natalie Frisk — There are, my goodness, um one of our organizations that have partnered with us on Raise Up Faith is Minnow. I’m not sure if all of your listeners would be familiar, but I really love the folks at Minnow. They um provide you know, an episodic but shows for kids. It’s like a subscription service that families can have at home um to watch, you know, biblically-based media. And they do it with such a high quality…

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — that that kids want to watch these things.
Rich Birch — Yeah, kids lean in. Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — And I think that we go, okay, kids are seeking out this stuff.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Natalie Frisk — If they’re seeking it out, that means that they have an appetite for it and they want more of it.
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — If we can get kids into the Bible in that way…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Natalie Frisk — …you know, like but what a phenomenal way to to to interact with um this generation.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. But it let’s, I want to double click on this. Help us understand, cause you’ve, you’ve been, um, you’re an expert in this area. Like, I don’t know how else to say this. You’re like, you you know, this stuff well.
Rich Birch — How long, when did one story start? When did you first start making content in this way for the local church? Is it 20 years? Has it been…
Natalie Frisk — Gosh.

Natalie Frisk — No, no, no, no.
Rich Birch — Not quite.
Natalie Frisk — No, I I was, I was but a small child 20 years ago, Rich.
Rich Birch — Yes, but you yes, yes.
Natalie Frisk — I don’t know what you’re talking to about.
Rich Birch — Yeah. What are you talking about?
Natalie Frisk — No, I’m gonna say 12 years ago, maybe 13.
Rich Birch — Okay. Okay.
Natalie Frisk — We started kind of the early, early days process of things.
Rich Birch — Right. So this, well I bring that up because this is okay…
Natalie Frisk — Yeah.
Rich Birch — …so you’re into your second decade—we’ll say that—into your second decade of wrestling with these issues of what what is inappropriate use because I, you know, to be honest, when I, like, I, when I first started in ministry, our kids ministry curriculum was, was all literally printed and, it was like you would get a box at the beginning of the quarter and you would take out a piece of paper and then you’d give it to somebody and they would stand up and read. That one is like we did that at our churches. And then you know organizations like One Story came along with this really novel idea, which is, hey, we’re going to produce videos that are going to be and you’re, there’s kind of like… And and again, I’m not an expert in this area. You are. I’m trying to describe this as a… there’s almost like this relationship between a local instructor, a host leader person, and then you as the curriculum producer. And and where is the line? What is video really good at for kids, engaging kids? What is the local kind of person that we still need people locally to do? Help us understand. Because I think sometimes I’ve seen churches overuse video…

Natalie Frisk — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …where it’s like, they’re going to sit for 30 minutes and watch something, and that is their Sunday morning. That’s not what I see you doing. And I so help us understand, where’s those lines kind of go?
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, I love that. I think um I’m going to borrow from Sesame Street for a second because why not?
Rich Birch — Cause Sesame Street.
Natalie Frisk — So Sesame Street, I mean, don’t even get me started, but I will start just the same. Sesame Street really introduced us to the kind of like um the segment like segmented kids programming. So there, I think it was three minutes, ah three minutes, three minutes, three minutes. And um in in many similar ways, we attempted to think about that in a kind of in physical proximity space. And in the the visual media of of ah ah videos.

Rich Birch — Good.

Natalie Frisk — And so we’ve got interspersed with the physical proximity small group or large group kind of scenarios. These videos that are crafted so that a fair bit of deep rich content is delivered in three to five minutes so that that
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s astonishing really how much how cut far you go. Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — So that can be um then unpacked in the the the physical ah space.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Natalie Frisk — So how that’s unpacked, and this is I think, I mean, the Lord definitely went before us on this because I could not have fathomed how like the Holy Spirit would have worked through this curriculum, this One Story curriculum in in such a way. But like churches right across the um denominational spectrum have utilized this curriculum. And it’s because we’re really trying to just like unpack the the biblical narrative um and then allow for the um individual expressions of the church to then to then make um application pieces really prominent.

Rich Birch — That’s good.
Natalie Frisk — And so as as leaders are asking kids, you know, what stood out to you? It’s very open-ended in that way, not to say that we leave every single piece of it in open-ended ways. I think there are certain things, you know, Jesus is Lord.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Natalie Frisk — Like there are certain absolute statements we can make that are true right across the board. And so, yeah, getting to to that kind of like episodic segmented place was really helpful. So we do um Bible story content in that way. And and and honestly, like does that mean that a Bible story is never live taught? Absolutely not.

Rich Birch — No, yeah.

Natalie Frisk — We give the opportunity, we we provide notes. for folks that want to deliver that themselves or you know i have a backup in case there’s a power outage and you’re teaching kids by candlelight…

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Natalie Frisk — That sounds dangerous, don’t do that. And then we also ah have created like ways to memorize scripture. We we that we call them key verse games. And they’re super fun and super… actually I had a a group with Rich, ah you you up ah you guys were, I think I had you running on the spot…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.

Natalie Frisk — …ah learning a key verse from a screen um that we all learned together and it was great fun. Although I have learned that I can’t run on the spot for more than 60 seconds.

Rich Birch — Quite as long – yes, exactly.

Natalie Frisk — But you know, there’s learnings all around. um And then the other bit with One Story that we did that to me was a new thing and I think we’re starting to see it more with children’s curriculum is, for lack of a better kind of phrase, it was like these mini testimony videos. They were done in such a way to share someone’s story connected to a big idea that came out of the biblical narrative. And that story is somebody from a completely different setting than your own.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Natalie Frisk — Well I mean, there could be some similarities, obviously, but um we were able to get such a diversity of people on camera. And so if you have a really, for whatever reason, a really really heterogeneous church population within um the content of One Story, you’re going to see just the most incredible variety of people in different places, in different spaces, um from different backgrounds, from ah yeah different different parts of the world, um lived out what it looks like to follow Jesus in real life in their setting.

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — And then still find ways that connect with your own story as a you know, a leader or a kid. um And I think that’s the other beauty of it is that it story kind of transcends our ages sometimes.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Natalie Frisk — You know, um I hear from leaders um how um they have learned from these stories themselves. As they are meant to be kind of teaching and facilitating, they are learning and growing as a result of this content, which just, again, I can’t couldn’t have fathomed what the Lord would do with this content when we first set out to create it.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s cool. It, again, I think um the thing I love about your content is it is it feels like it’s like the best of what should be on video. Like, oh, that’s like really resident to what should come by video. It’s like you’re doing, like you say, a testimony like, I can’t inject some other kids story into today’s conversation. Like I can’t bring a kid up and say hey let’s interview you around your… that’s just not gonna happen. Or you know the creative stuff that that does you know fire all the you know brains is just different than it’s made for the you know for the screen. Which I think then I think when you pair that with a great communicator or a great leader they can take that in this kind of partnership dance, not to replace that teacher, not to replace the person locally…

Natalie Frisk — Exactly.

Rich Birch — …but to really enhance their ability to connect with kids. I also think that up that episodic idea too, you know, when I was a kid, they used to, it was like the best day in school, you would see, they would roll down the giant TV and you knew that the teacher was gonna put on like a two hour movie. Now I know looking back on that, that was like the teacher taking a break. They were like, I am done. And, uh, that’s not what this is. This is not like, Hey, we’re going to… They’re still very engaged in the process, which I think is, you know, is fantastic.
Rich Birch — So, man, there’s a lot we could talk about here. So many things you’ve given us this, uh, this resource I want to talk about, which kind of gets back to what originally we’re talking about, mix it up digital media in your kids min’s space.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, yeah.
Rich Birch — We’re going to link to this in the show notes, but kind of tell me what this is and how it’s helpful.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, as we, interact with parents, especially as ministry leaders and directed with parents who are maybe, um we’ll call them digitally hesitant.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Natalie Frisk — This resource is helpful to help navigate some of those conversations or even um get ahead of some of those conversations that are inevitable. I mean, there are folks in every church that will say, oh, I don’t I don’t know about you know my kids. You know, this is the one hour in the week, maybe that they are not bombarded by media. And it’s like, well, let’s think of it in a different light.
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — It’s not about being bombarded by media. It’s actually about speaking to them in a way that they have been accustomed to that is actually helpful and meaningful in their settings. So um this covers over um three reasons why to use video in kids’ ministry. A few different links to some great organizations, including Raise Up Faith…

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.

Natalie Frisk — …that will be helpful in your church context. And then um for ministry leaders to share some resources that are helpful for at home um context. um There’s some phenomenal stuff for at home use as well that honestly, I think even as a ministry leader to um help to curate a video playlist on YouTube…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s a great idea.

Natalie Frisk — …for families to engage with at home, Man, um I know a bunch of children’s ministry leaders who um curate their own Spotify playlist so that families can jump in a car and know that their kids are hearing the same songs that they will sing on Sunday morning in their car rides in the week, which helps enhance their experience as well as the discipleship practices. So I think those things can be so helpful and a bunch of this stuff is on that handout.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love at the bottom here—and again, friends, you just get this link it’s we’re linking in the show notes—ah you know you’ve listed a ah ah bunch of YouTube accounts like from different churches and organizations that provide great content. Like that even that alone, I’m like, man, that’s worth of the price of the download here.
Rich Birch — Because you know like you could see I thought the same thing like what if you know for this coming year we’re trying to acknowledge like hey this isn’t this a real issue I think as as leaders, as a senior leader, executive pastor, lead pastor I’d be saying let’s get our people together let’s get our our kids ministry people together and and talk about this issue. How are we helping our people with the fact that their kids are living in an increasingly digital age? I think that’s one takeaway from today’s conversation.

Natalie Frisk — Absolutely.

Rich Birch — Another thing we could do is like, hey, every month we could feature one of these, our kids ministry group could feature one of these. Here’s some great content if you’re looking for some extra stuff, doesn’t cost you anything. I know, you know, you go onto YouTube and you’re like, I don’t know where to send my kids. And if you, if you don’t, they’ll end up on Mr. Beast eventually. And you know, that’s where, you know, that’s where the algorithm will push them towards. And well, less Skibbity Toilet would be great.

Natalie Frisk — Oh man. Yeah.

Rich Birch — So like, let’s, you know, you know, let’s point them towards some great content. So this is fantastic. What a great resource. I appreciate you putting that together. That’s super helpful.
Natalie Frisk — Oh, thank you. Thanks so much, Rich.
Rich Birch — And then tell us more about Raise Up Faith. Like let’s talk about this. Like your maybe there’s many people that have been listening in today. What’s the kind of church that would really benefit from Raise Up Faith and should be exploring? You know what ah What’s the kind of problems that you feel like you solve particularly well for churches? And that’s just at raiseupfaith.com. I want to send people there to check that out.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, and I’ll just add before I answer your question um that that we have a free sampler account.

Rich Birch — Oh, love it.

Natalie Frisk — So people can go on and they can try out. Gosh, there’s like a ton of lessons that are for free. So even if you’re, I mean, I know some churches that they never know if a kid is going to show up on a Sunday morning. So if you’re just looking for some activity pages to be able to have to hand out to kids that might just happen to show up on a Sunday morning, you can you know download some freebies there as well.

Rich Birch — Love it.
Natalie Frisk — Yeah, I think that this has been a really interesting question for us as a company to be um considering. And I think that our, the realities of our experience has shown that Raise Up Faith is for a much more diverse um kind of spectrum of churches then perhaps we had um been I guess…

Rich Birch — Originally thought.

Natalie Frisk — Yeah, yeah. So you know initially we were really, really focused on recognizing that there are so many small churches, like small small churches under 200, that don’t have a paid a paid professional, ah maybe even pastor…

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — …ah let alone a children’s ministry, youth ministry, family ministry person. And so we really wanted to provide excellent quality content for the kids that happen to be in those settings and to make it as accessible and um just kind of low prep as possible for those those those folks who are doing it in a… I’ll be honest with you, um having been at um a really large church for oh gosh, 17, 18 years. I am now in this really, really small church that’s really it’s really sweet.
Rich Birch — Yes. Changes your perspective a little bit.
Natalie Frisk — It it really does.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Natalie Frisk — And it has helped me um be able to speak into kind of both ends of this, but um I’m presently the the interim children’s ministry director.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.

Natalie Frisk — And yeah, yeah you can’t you can take a girl out of something and something, something. There’s a saying that I’m sure somebody can figure that one out.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Somewhere in there. Yeah. Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — But this small church experience is often patchwork. It’s often um one person is teaching on one Sunday and they have no idea what the person the following Sunday is gonna teach. No idea, no connection to what the person the Sunday after that is gonna teach.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Natalie Frisk — And it really becomes this kind of, um I don’t know, wild ride for kids that maybe they’re hearing the same story a few weeks in a row, um all of these kinds of things. So we we kind of thought, this is a helpful resource um where folks can easily get connected to a scope and sequence. They can get logins for their various volunteers so that they can just track along together with very low prep. And so we thought small churches, those are that’s our sweet spot. And then we started to get larger churches using this. And we’re like, oh, this is actually helpful for multisite.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Natalie Frisk — I mean, when we created One Story, um we were utilizing it at a multisite church. But recognizing that having multiple curricula on our platform um allows a multi-site church or or a church with heaps of campuses in a variety of different um kind of demographic areas allows them to just kind of personalize or contextualize certain aspects of their their teaching…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yep.

Natalie Frisk — …based on where they are. So, you know, there might be, gosh, um there might be a campus that has a really like musical worshipy kind of foundation to it. And you want to help the kids enter into that same type of thing.

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — Well, many, many curriculum ah have somewhat limited music availability.

Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — And what happens is that um children’s ministry leaders or family ministry leaders are often buying the add-ons.
Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — So there’s this and then I add on and then I add on.
Rich Birch — Right.
Natalie Frisk — This is this has got it this has got all of the pieces so you don’t have to pay out of pocket…

Rich Birch — Add on. Yeah, that makes sense.

Natalie Frisk — …every time you’re looking for something. So um we’ve got this adorable um adorable British ah ah curriculum on our platform for kind of the early years called Little Worship Company.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice. Love it. Yes.
Natalie Frisk — And it is there’s there’s heaps of songs, songs that you would sing in your church community on a Sunday morning. Songs that you probably wouldn’t with grown-ups. So there’s ah like this range of worshipful songs that I just think like, yeah, that’s such a gift to to a certain kind of style of church. And then there’s, you know, we’ve got um heaps of Bible content um that in various ways that will speak to different communities in different ways. And I mean there’s there’s activities I mean the whole gambit of things.

Rich Birch — So good.

You can search for you know if if Rich Birch is in a church and gets tasked with running for example a family ministry night which I know you know your sweet spot…
Rich Birch — Yes. Sure.
Natalie Frisk — …completely being the the MC up front, getting everybody going um and you need some large group games.

Rich Birch — Right.

Natalie Frisk — Well, you can search we have a search an awesome search function search function…

Rich Birch — Function. Yeah.

Natalie Frisk — …that you can um search for those large group games or the the the messy games or the um whatever that might be as you as you go.
Natalie Frisk — So I when I used I would have answered your question. Yeah, we’re for like a small to medium church, because that’s what we kind of were experiencing those as our early adopters. We’re recognizing that actually, we’ve got some extra larger mega churches that have started to use this content and are opening our eyes to the just way that this serves a variety of different churches in different ways.
Rich Birch — For sure. And you can see one of the things that I know has always kind of, um as but not always, I have often puzzled about is like lots of these curriculums are four weeks long. They’re like, we’re doing four weeks on this. And we just ignore the fact that there’s four months every year that have five weeks. And we’re like, which is a third of all months? Like that’s like a non-trivial number of months.
Natalie Frisk — It’s a lot. Yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah. And yeah, I get it. It’s not every month, but it’s a lot. And if you’re the person that’s got to come up with stuff to do, like those, those weeks come up with uncanny regularity where you’re like, okay, what are we going to do today?
Rich Birch — And so having a platform like yours that yeah, maybe you try something special on those, those weeks, right? Hey, we’re going to do something that’s slightly outside and maybe we deliberately are going to, you know, find something that’s like so different than everything else we’re going to do.
Natalie Frisk — Exactly.
Rich Birch — You know, you’ve got that kind of variety rather than being locked into just a single curriculum. You know, I think that’s a great, you know, there could be a great use for, uh, you know, what you’re doing as well. So. ah This is fantastic. Natalie, I really appreciate you being on today. If we want to send people to kind of get connected with ah Raise Up Faith, where do we want to send them? All that kind of stuff. Give us the coordinates online. We should send people to.
Natalie Frisk — Yes. We want to send them to raiseupfaith.com.

Rich Birch — Perfect.

Natalie Frisk — And when they get there, they can, I heartily encourage them to sign up for a free sampler account.
Rich Birch — Love it.

Natalie Frisk — You don’t have to give your credit card or anything like that.

Rich Birch — Perfect.

Natalie Frisk — So you you can feel very confident in that process. And then when you do that, you can access a bunch of free stuff and poke around there.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Natalie Frisk — If you want to shoot me an email, you’ve got more questions, I’m so happy to interact with folks. My email address is natalie.frisk[at]raiseupfaith.com.
Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much. Really appreciate you being here today. Thanks for for being around. Great to see you again, friend. Thanks for being on the show today.
Natalie Frisk — Thanks for having me.

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The Volunteer Playbook: Secrets to Building a Thriving Ministry Team with Nick Blevins Aug 15, 2024

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Mastering Communicating Change in Your Ministry with Dawn Nicole Baldwin Jul 11, 2024

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From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Engagement Pathway Best Practices May 15, 2024

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The Four Key Factors of Magnetic Community Service That Drive Invite Culture May 08, 2024

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From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Understanding New Guest Metrics May 01, 2024

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40 Day All-In Campaigns for Your Church: Unleashing Discipleship & Growth with Zach Zehnder Apr 25, 2024

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5 Counterintuitive Truths About Hiring for Church Leadership Apr 24, 2024

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Volunteering as Mission: Cultivating a Culture of Engagement with Mary Ann Sibley Apr 18, 2024

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From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Key Metrics for Explosive Church Growth Apr 17, 2024

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Attention Economy: Understanding Its Impact On Your Church’s Mission Apr 10, 2024

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Redemptive Poverty Work: Transforming Urban Communities Through Faith with Rev. Dr. Alvin Sanders Apr 04, 2024

Thank you for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to have Rev. Dr. Alvin Sanders from World Impact with us. This organization comes alongside church leaders and offers training and support designed for the urban context. The American Church has devalued the urban space, either fearing it or viewing it as something to […]

Easter 2024 Stats Exposed: Insights Your Church Can’t Afford to Ignore Apr 03, 2024

During this episode of the unSeminary, we dived into the Easter 2024 attendance figures, collating responses from a wide array of churches. The total combined attendance hit a staggering 249,377, revealing much about the state of church engagement during this important “Eventful Big Day.” The Importance of Eventful Big Days Easter can be an “Eventful […]

The Jewish Road: Uniting Act 1 and Act 2 of Our Faith Journey with Matt Davis Mar 28, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Matt Davis from The Jewish Road, an organization that works to help Christians make sense of their Jewish roots while helping Jews make sense of Jesus. Most Christians have a basic understanding of Jesus and His teachings, but they aren’t getting the whole story. Jesus has […]

From Vision to Reality: Crafting a Future Where More People Meet Jesus with Paul Alexander Mar 21, 2024

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m joined by Paul Alexander, the Executive Pastor at Sun Valley Community Church in Arizona. As church leaders, sometimes we can have a natural aversion to strategic planning. Yet we see in the scriptures, from beginning to end, that God has a plan. And He wants […]

Leading Through Growth: Executive Pastor Roundtable with Jeremy Peterson, Kayra Montañez, & Jesse DeYoung Mar 20, 2024

This episode of unSeminary brings together a distinguished panel of Executive Pastors—Jeremy Peterson, Kayra Montañez, and Jesse DeYoung—for an insightful roundtable discussion. These seasoned leaders from across the country share their frontline experiences and strategies in navigating the complexities of expanding churches in today’s rapidly changing ecclesiastical landscape. What You’ll Learn: Guest Bios: This episode […]

Wonderful: Charting the Path to Fulfillment in a World Overflowing with Options with Travis Spencer Mar 14, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we have with us Travis Spencer, the lead pastor at The Fields Church in Mattoon, Illinois. We’re talking with Travis about his book Wonderful: How to Live a Fulfilled Life in a Very Full World. Have you ever thought about writing a book? Tune in as Travis discusses […]

Bridgetown’s Pivot from Livestream to Local: Kenny Jahng & Rich Birch Discuss Mar 13, 2024

In an era where digital presence is almost synonymous with accessibility, Bridgetown Church’s recent decision to cancel their livestream services stands out as a bold counter-current move. This episode of the unSeminary podcast, featuring a conversation between host Rich Birch and guest Kenny Jahng, dives deep into the implications and motivations behind this pivot. Here’s […]

Unlocking Generosity and Engagement: Key Takeaways from Church Growth Incubator Retreat Mar 07, 2024

In today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast, we pull back the curtain on an extraordinary gathering that promises to revolutionize the way church leaders envision growth and community engagement. Fresh from the Church Growth Incubator retreat held at Mariner’s Church in Irvine, Southern California, we’re eager to share a treasure trove of wisdom that emerged […]

From Attendance to Engagement: Zach Interviews Rich About Transforming Your Church’s Growth Strategy Feb 29, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m happy to sit down with Zach Zehnder, who runs an organization called Red Letter Living. The mission of Red Letter Living is to challenge all people to become greater followers of Jesus Christ. Thousands of individuals and hundreds of churches have taken one of their 40-day discipleship […]

The Diffusion of Innovation Curve and Leading Change at Your Church Feb 28, 2024

In the dynamic landscape of church leadership, the concept of change is both inevitable and essential. As leaders, our mission extends beyond merely maintaining the status quo; it involves steering our congregations toward a brighter, more engaging future. This journey of transformation, however, is far from straightforward. It demands a nuanced understanding of how change […]

FILO: Empowering Technical Artists in Your Church with Todd Elliott Feb 22, 2024

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Todd Elliott, a writer, speaker and audio engineer serving the local church. He’s also the founder of FILO: First In, Last Out, which is built around supporting technical artists who serve the local church. Do you ever feel like there is a disconnect […]

Church Merger Tactic: Expanding Your Church’s Reach with “The Letter Method” Feb 21, 2024

In today’s solo episode, I’m diving deep into a topic close to my heart and crucial for any growing or multi-site church considering expansion: church mergers. This isn’t just another growth strategy; it’s a pivotal approach that could significantly impact how we reach more people and foster an inviting church culture. The Growing Trend of […]

From Downturn to Turnaround to Steady Growth in a Rural-ish Community with Joseph Berkobien Feb 15, 2024

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Joseph Berkobien, the Lead Pastor of Frankenmuth Bible Church in Frankenmuth, Michigan. Transitions in leadership can be challenging times for churches. How do you recover and grow after a season of decline? Tune in as Joseph shares the turnaround story of […]

Reflections on Christian Ministry at the Halfway Point with Jon Thompson Feb 08, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jon Thompson, the lead pastor at Sanctus Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Being a Christian leader is a marathon, not a sprint. In the middle of the social media and the politics and the pressures and the fear and the questions, we can be tempted to […]

From Eye Rolls to Engagement: Boosting the Effectiveness of Your Church’s Announcements Feb 07, 2024

This episode tackles a critical yet often overlooked aspect of church services: announcements. Far from being mere placeholders, announcements have the potential to drive engagement within your church significantly. We start with a relatable discussion on why church announcements typically induce eye rolls rather than enthusiasm. Recognizing this issue is the first step towards transformation. […]

Protecting Your Church’s DNA: Jon Delger on Building Culture Within a Fast-Growing Church Feb 01, 2024

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We have Jon Delger with us today, the Executive Pastor at Peace Church in Michigan—one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Whether your church is growing a little or a lot, change to the people making up your church will change your culture. How can […]

From First Fifty to New Frontiers: Mike Signorelli on Moving Your People to Deeper Levels of Commitment Jan 25, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Signorelli, Lead Pastor at V1 Church – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country with locations in New York City and other cities across the country. Are you feeling stuck moving people at your church to increasing levels of commitment? Wondering how to manage […]

Revitalizing Invitation: Strategies for Engaging Your Church Community Jan 24, 2024

Today’s episode is unique and particularly close to our hearts as we address a question from one of our listeners, Drew Williams, head pastor at New Life Lutheran Church. This direct engagement with our audience not only reinforces our community’s interconnectedness but also grounds our discussion in real-world church leadership scenarios. Drew’s church, nestled in […]

Pastoral Transitions: Matt Davis on Best Practices in Moving Members Off Your Team Jan 18, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. This week we are talking to Matt Davis, the President and Chief Pastoral Officer at Pastoral Transitions. This ministry exists to help churches love and support their outgoing pastors and their families. They provides transition services to help pastors continue their life ministry for building God’s kingdom. Every pastor […]

Doubling Impact: Navigating the Shift from One to Two Church Services Jan 17, 2024

Why add another service? Growth and multiplication are signs of a healthy church. This isn’t just about getting more people in seats in the building; it’s about creating new opportunities for reaching out, engaging more volunteers, and widening your church’s impact. Remember, every empty seat is a missed opportunity to change a life. Breaking the […]

Fast-Growing Follow Up: Insights from Pantano Christian Church’s Growth with Trevor DeVage Jan 11, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m talking with Trevor DeVage, the lead pastor at Pantano Christian Church in Tuscon, Arizona. Trevor has talked with us before and is back sharing how to recognize opportunities at your church and embrace best practices to create space for growth. You can learn more about Pantano […]

Beyond the Budget: Innovative Ways to Increase Church Revenue Jan 10, 2024

This solo episode offers practical insights, strategies, and inspiring stories aimed at helping church leaders expand their fiscal horizons. The discussion kicks off with a look back at the remarkable achievements of the ‘Best Year End Ever’ cohort, part of The Art of Leadership Academy. Success stories from various churches demonstrate the immense potential and […]

Executive Pastor Profile: Sam Beatty from Grace Church, Cleveland Jan 04, 2024

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have with us Sam Beatty, the executive pastor from Grace Church outside of Cleveland, Ohio. As our churches grow, they naturally become more complex. It’s important to keep them focused and drive towards simplicity so we don’t drift from the mission and vision. Tune […]

2024 Unpredictions: Timeless Church Leadership Challenges & Solutions Jan 03, 2024

As we step into the fresh possibilities of 2024, it’s vital for church leaders to discern between fleeting trends and enduring challenges. In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we delve into the “2024 Unpredictions,” a guide to the timeless challenges and solutions that will shape church leadership this year. Core Themes: While we embrace […]

Digital Rabbi: Unlocking Your Purpose and Passion with Sats Solanki Dec 28, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Sats Solanki, the founder of Reflect Church in London. Sats is not just a pastor but also a coach, speaker, and host of the podcast, Digital Rabbi. Tune in as he shares about the unique journey of Reflect Church and its strategically slow approach to rebuilding […]

Lessons from Christmas: Elevating Your Church’s Impact Dec 26, 2023

As church leaders, we often find the post-Christmas period a time for reflection and planning. The festive season’s hustle has settled, and it’s time to ponder on our successes and the areas where we yearn for growth. In this latest episode of the unSeminary podcast, we delve into crucial insights and strategies to transform your […]

Persevering After Being Fired by Your Church: Kyle Isabelli Reflects on His Journey Dec 21, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with repeat guest, Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor from Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Did you know that as many as one third of people working in church ministry will be forced to resign or be fired from their position? If you’ve ever […]

Beyond Predictions: Increasing Generosity at Your Church Amidst Economic Fog Dec 19, 2023

As we step into 2024, churches face a unique challenge amidst a mixed economic outlook. With predictions ranging from robust growth to stagnation, it’s crucial for church leaders to focus on effective revenue generation strategies. One key area that offers significant potential is the enhancement of offering talks. Understanding the Economic Landscape The economic forecasts […]

Why Your Team Should Do a 90 Day Bible Reading Challenge (& How!) with Mary DeMuth Dec 14, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mary DeMuth today, an international speaker, podcaster, and author of nearly fifty books. You may have read through the Bible in a year, but have you considered reading the entirety of scripture in just 90 days? In today’s conversation, Mary shares how this 90-day challenge started […]

The January Bump: Game-Changing Perspective on Christmas Attendance Targets for Your Church Dec 13, 2023

A New Metric for Success: The January Bump Traditionally, we judge the success of our Christmas services by the number of attendees. But what if we shifted our focus to what I like to call the ‘January bump’? Imagine measuring success not just by the numbers during Christmas but by the increase in attendance we […]

The Chosen: Stan Jantz on Reaching 1 Billion People, Ministry Innovation & Helping Your Church Dec 07, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Stan Jantz today, the Chief Executive Officer of The Come and See Foundation. In partnership with ministries around the world, Come and See is on a mission to share the authentic Jesus with 1 billion people worldwide. Throughout history, followers of […]

Residency Reflections: Saddleback Church’s Brittany Crimmel on Her Leadership Pathway So Far Nov 30, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brittany Crimmel, a Production Director at Saddleback Church in California. There is a leadership crisis in the local church with so many churches struggling to know how to find and develop people. However, by participating in internships and residencies, churches can contribute to developing the […]

Behind the Leader: Ian Borkent’s Journey of Burnout and Relaunch Nov 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Ian Borkent from C3 Rivers Church in the Netherlands. Ian also started the ministry Grow a Healthy Soul to help church leaders take care of their souls. Church leaders often focus on metrics such as attendance, salvations and finances to gauge the health of their church, […]

Secrets of Top Team Players: Insights from 30,000 Leaders & William Vanderbloemen Nov 16, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking again with William Vanderbloemen, the founder and CEO of Vanderbloemen Search Group, an organization that helps identify executive talent and matches value-based organizations with like-minded people. When it comes to hiring the best people, what factors cause them to shine? How can you learn to identify […]

Talking with Your Lender: Mark Briggs Offers Insider Advice for Growing Churches Nov 09, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mark Briggs, the Executive Vice President of Ministry Lending at CDF Capital. CDF Capital is dedicated to helping churches solve problems and bridge the financial gap often faced when trying to expand and reach more people. Mark has been with CDF for over 20 years, helping churches […]

Guest-Friendly Environments: Aaron Stanski on Effective Facilities for Your Church Nov 02, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Stanski, the founder and CEO of Risepointe, with fifteen years of church design and ministry leadership experience. Do you feel frustrated with your church building, or like it’s holding you back from fulfilling your mission? Aaron’s experience has given him unique insights into the common […]

Increasing the Generosity Culture at Your Church with Phil Ling Oct 26, 2023

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Phil Ling, a renowned expert on generosity in the church and founder of The Giving Church. Did you know that in the average church in North America, 45% of the people that give a church money give less than $200 […]

Increase Engagement with Data-Driven Strategies: Ronee de Leon on Unlocking Your Church Database’s Potential Oct 19, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Ronee de Leon, the Director of Executive Project Management from Grace Fellowship, a multisite church in Ohio. Many churches have some sort of church management software and mountains of data. But figuring out how to make it actionable so you’re connecting with your […]

Mission Trips vs. Strategic Visits: Nathan Nelson on Transformational International Partnerships for Your Church Oct 12, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nathan Nelson, Pastor of Mission and Outreach at Bethany Community Church in the Seattle, Washington region. Do you ever feel like short-term missions trips actually push against creating deep, lasting change in the communities you serve? Tune in as Nathan shares how to move beyond the […]

Engagement Pathway: Greg Curtis & Tommy Carreras on Best Current Practices on Assimilating People at Your Church Oct 05, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras. Greg is the Pastor of Guest Engagement at Eastside Christian Church, a multisite church in California, Nevada, and Minnesota. He’s also founder of Climbing the Assimalayas, a website focused on helping churches design an engagement pathway that fosters connection, enables […]

Transforming Team Culture: Karen Berge’s Insider View on the Shift from Unhealthy to Thriving Sep 28, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Karen Berge, the Executive Pastor of Ministry at Flatirons Community Church. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country with five physical campuses in Colorado as well as church online. Many churches are able to say there are good things happening there. […]

How to Leverage AI for Your Church & Your Future with Kenny Jahng Sep 21, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the second of a two-part series (you can listen to part one of the podcast here) with Kenny Jahng, an expert when it comes to using AI in the church, and the founder of Big Click Syndicate. In today’s episode we’re delving into the implications of […]

How Your Church Can Have the Best Year-End Ever with Kenny Jahng Sep 14, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the first of a two-part series with my friend, Kenny Jahng, the founder of Big Click Syndicate which helps cause-driven organizations get their messages in front of the right audiences. Did you know the last 45 days of the year are crucial for charitable giving? Because […]

Fostering Community in a Fast-Growing Multi-Campus Ministry: Scott Freeman on Effective Pastoral Care Sep 07, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scott Freeman, the Pastor of Community at Grace Church in South Carolina. As a church expands, there is a constant tension to manage between growth and deep community. Grace Church has experienced significant growth over the years with ten campuses and over 250 community […]

The Future of Faith is Child-Friendly: Stephen Moore on WinShape Camps for Communities Aug 31, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to be talking with Stephen Moore, the Director of WinShape Camps for Communities. WinShape, an organization started in 1985 by Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, started as a college program and has since grown into five different ministries, with focuses on professional development, marriages, […]

He Gets Us: Kyle Isabelli on Reaching Out to Non-Christians with Gloo Aug 24, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor of Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Wondering how to connect with hurting people in your community who might not venture through your church’s doors? In today’s episode Kyle and I have a fantastic conversation […]

Faith Forward: Fr. Peter Wojcik on Strategies for Engaging Millennials, Gen Z, & Gen Alpha in the Church Aug 17, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we are joined by Father Peter Wojcik, pastor at Saint Clement Parish in Chicago. Do you struggle to engage Gen Z in your church? Do you want to invite younger generations into ministry, but aren’t sure where to start? Saint Clement is a dynamic Catholic community in the […]

From Struggle to Success: Evan Courtney on Revitalizing a Church Campus Amidst Challenges Aug 10, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Evan Courtney, the Executive Pastor at The Fields Church in central Illinois. Have you ever experienced decline in your church or felt like everything was going wrong? Don’t miss this encouraging conversation as Evan testifies to the power of perseverance, overcoming obstacles that lead […]

Uniting the Church to Quench the Global Water Crisis: A Conversation with Mike Mantel Aug 03, 2023

Thanks for tuning into today’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Mantel, the CEO of Living Water International. They are a faith-based global humanitarian organization that links arms with churches around the world to serve thirsty communities through access to safe drinking water, sanitation, and hygiene. What if the church of Jesus Christ could end […]

Nurturing the Spirit of Advent with Families at Your Church: Chris Pappalardo & Clayton Greene on the GoodKind Approach Jul 27, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Greene from The Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina. Chris is Editor on the Creative Arts team and Clayton is the Summit Collaborative Director. Have you started planning for Christmas yet at your church? Are you looking for a way to help […]

The Art of Working with (Almost) Anyone: Michael Bungay Stanier Offers Coaching For You As You Lead At Your Church Jul 20, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with coach and writer Michael Bungay Stanier, who is best known for his book, The Coaching Habit, which is the bestselling coaching book of the century. We all know that not all work relationships can be perfect, but how can we improve them? In today’s episode, Michael […]

The Resilience Factor: Insights from Léonce B. Crump Jr. & Warren Bird on Unbreakable Teams Jul 13, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Léonce B. Crump Jr. and Warren Bird. Léonce is an author plus the co-founder and senior pastor of Renovation Church in Atlanta. Warren is a repeat guest on unSeminary. He works for the Evangelical Council for Financial Ability (ECFA) and is also the […]

When Pastors Aren’t Angels: Becca Pountney on Wedding Industry Challenges Jul 06, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Becca Pountney, the UK’s number one wedding business marketing expert and host of the podcast Wedding Pros Who Are Ready to Grow. Did you know that many wedding professionals have a negative perception of church weddings? From difficulty accessing church buildings and strict rules, to […]

Long-Term Vision, Lasting Impact: Curt Seaburg on Strategic Vision in Church Leadership Jun 29, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Curt Seaburg, the lead pastor of Victory Church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. While it’s important for church leaders to learn from each other, when it comes to vision, it’s critical to know yourself and the God-given calling for your church within its unique community. Listen to […]

Hybrid Church in a Digital Age: Collin Jones on the State of Church Tech Today Jun 22, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Collin Jones, the chief ambassador at Resi, part of the organization Pushpay. Pushpay provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app to the faith sector while Resi helps deliver reliable livestream solutions to churches. Online services and live streaming […]

Exploring the State of Church Staff Health: Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen on Findings and Insights from New National Study Jun 15, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast! Today is part 2 of a conversation that we started back in April with Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. If you’re curious about the state of church staff health in the US, you won’t want to miss this episode as we dive into the findings of […]

Discipleship Leadership Development in Church Planting: Stevie Flockhart’s Leadership Journey Jun 08, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stevie Flockhart, Lead Pastor of 901 Church in Tennessee. Have you ever struggled with the desire for personal recognition and validation in ministry? In this unSeminary podcast episode Stevie shares his personal journey and struggles with comparison and the desire for success. Listen in […]

Long-Term Leadership: Jeff Cranston on Steady, Purposeful Leadership Jun 01, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Lead Pastor Jeff Cranston with us from LowCountry Community Church in Bluffton, South Carolina. How can churches maintain balance in ministry and create engagement within their congregation and staff? This is a question that Jeff answers in today’s episode of the unSeminary Podcast. Don’t miss this conversation […]

Doing Less to Reach More: Trevor DeVage on 160% Church Growth in 18 Months May 25, 2023

Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lead Pastor Trevor DeVage from Pantano Christian Church in Arizona, one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Is your church in a season of growth, needing to streamline its ministries? Or are you trying to simplify your systems so that they […]

Practical Help on Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Ken Nash May 18, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Ken Nash, the Lead Pastor of Cornerstone Church in Michigan, is with us today. For decades churches measured how well they were doing based on counting nickels and noses, but with the upheaval and loss churches have experienced over the last few years, they need to change […]

Training Your Team to Lead Through Others with Phil Caporale & George Probasco May 11, 2023

Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lead Pastor, Phil Caporale, and Campus Pastor and Kingsway Leadership School Site Director, George Probasco, from Kingsway Church in New Jersey. As a church leader, one of the most challenging aspects of your role can be developing leaders. While it can be difficult to identify […]

Leaning in on the Important (& Potentially Awkward) Conversations Around Women in Leadership at Your Church with Lisa Penberthy May 04, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lisa Penberthy, a church leader and consultant with 20 years of experience and an M.Div and MBA in nonprofit management. She is currently serving as the COO at Dannah Investment Group and is passionate about stewarding people’s callings as well as church resources. […]

Closing the Gap Between Your Church’s Vision & Execution with Nick Thompson Apr 27, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Thompson, the Executive Pastor at The Living Stone Church in Denver, Colorado. How is your church executing on its vision? If you’re a church leader looking to create a practical framework for decision-making, a Vision Frame might be just what you need. Listen to this […]

Building a Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Sustaining a Strong Team Culture with Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen Apr 24, 2023

Welcome to today’s special episode of the unSeminary podcast where we are replaying our recent webinar called “Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Building and Sustaining a Strong Team Culture” with my friends Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. In this webinar, Todd and Matt discuss the importance of cultivating a healthy […]

Being a Clarity Champion on a Senior Leadership Team at a Fast Growing Church with Kasey Husen Apr 20, 2023

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kasey Husen, the Executive Director of Communicatons and Events at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. Kasey talks with us about the importance of having a Communications Director at the senior leadership level at your church. Beyond branding and marketing, Kasey shares how they can […]

Leading Through the Crisis Your Church is In (Or About to Be In) with Rusty George Apr 13, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George this week, the lead pastor of Real Life Church in Southern California. In addition to being a pastor, Rusty is a speaker, teacher and author focused on making real-life simple. As leaders, we all face difficult times and crises that challenge […]

Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress with Brian Dodd Apr 06, 2023

Thank you for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Brian Dodd back with us. He’s the Director of New Ministry Relationships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions, as well as blogging at Brian Dodd on Leadership and the author of several books. Brian is talking with us about the current state of the church […]

Sunday Service Dedicated to Pre-schoolers & Their Parents? Church Growth Lessons from Marcus Gibbs & Bubble Church Mar 30, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We have a real treat today. We recorded this interview in person while in London, England with Marcus Gibbs, Vicar at Ascension Church. Are you looking for innovative ways to reach unchurched communities and serve the next generation?Listen in as Marcus shares the simple yet engaging Bubble […]

Leveraging Data to Drive Ministry Outcomes at Your Church with Erik Henry Mar 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Erik Henry, the Executive Pastor of Central Christian Church in Wisconsin. Data is critical to accurately understand what’s happening at your church and what’s changing over time. Listen in as Erik discusses the importance of using data to make informed decisions at your church as […]

Moving from Spanish Translation to a Full Spanish Ministry with Tim Hill Mar 16, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Tim Hill, executive pastor at Bear Creek Church, located at the crossroads of West Houston, Katy and Cypress, Texas. Every zip code in America is more diverse today than it was ten years ago. And it will be even more diverse ten years […]

Seeking God’s Best for Your Church Even in a Hostile Environment with Terry A. Smith Mar 09, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Terry A. Smith with us today; he’s the lead pastor at The Life Christian Church (TLCC) which serves the New York City metro area. He recently wrote a devotional called, The Lord Bless You: A 28-Day Journey to Experience God’s Extravagant Blessings, and today we’re unpacking a […]

Building a Positive Working Relationship with Your Church’s Financial Institution with Eric Schroeder Mar 02, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re having a great conversation with Eric Schroeder, the president and CEO of CDF Capital, an organization that helps churches grow in order to transform lives and communities. Financial matters, like spiritual matters, are very personal. And when you’re dealing with something personal, it can be hard to develop […]

4 Minutes Every Weekend to Increase Revenue & Spread Culture at Your Church with Taleah Murray Feb 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Taleah Murray, the Executive Pastor of Ministries at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. One of the areas Taleah oversees at Crossroads is offering talks and using video to share the impact that the church’s generosity is having as people give. Listen in as she […]

Kadi Cole Interviews Rich Birch about Female Leadership in the Church Feb 16, 2023

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole who leads the organization Kadi Cole & Company which helps with leadership development, management skills training, executive level coaching and more. This time Kadi is taking over hosting the podcast as she interviews Rich on how men can open […]

XP Roundtable: Finances, Volunteers, Staffing & More with Lisa Penberthy, Jeremy Peterson & Brandon Beard Feb 09, 2023

What larger trends are impacting churches across the country? The landscape of our culture continues to shift & evolve. Growing churches respond to those changes and find ways to thrive. Learn from the latest insights on trends and how those impact you and your team. Don’t miss this special podcast episode as we hear from […]

Get a Head Start on Your Church’s Multi-Use Strategy with Frank Bealer Feb 02, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Frank Bealer, the co-founder and Chief Growth Officer of Phase Family Centers as well as Chief of Staff at Local Church. Is your church considering a multi-use strategy? Does it seem overwhelming as you think about how to get started and all that you […]

Help to Fight the Scourge of Predictability in Your Church Services with Lance Burch Jan 26, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Lance Burch from Reality Church in Omaha, Nebraska. He often explores and identifies current cultural phenomena and then tries to find a way to connect them to biblical truth. Listen in as Lance shares how to pay attention to the questions the culture around us is […]

Tithes & Offerings Are No Longer Enough To Fund Your Church with Mark DeYmaz Jan 19, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Mark DeYmaz, who planted Mosaic Church in Arkansas and is co-founder of Mosaix Global Network. We’re nearly a quarter of our way through the 21st century and yet some churches are still operating on models from the 1960s. In spite of good intentions […]

Reflecting on Seasons of Life, Leadership & Their Impact on Your Team with Lee Coate Jan 12, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lee Coate, the executive pastor at The Crossing in Las Vegas, and the president of Growmentum Group. Today Lee is talking with us about Growmentum Group, how they are helping church leaders accomplish their missions, and how to use the different seasons of leadership that are […]

Doing the Right Things for the Right Reasons with the Right People at Your Church with Scot Longyear & Heath Bottomly Jan 05, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re with returning guests Scot Longyear and Heath Bottomly today. Heath is the Lead Pastor of the Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona and Scot is the Senior Pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana. Scot and Heath talk with us about their book Fight […]

Lessons from Inside a Rapidly Multiplying Church with DeWayne McNally & Paul Schulz Dec 22, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with DeWayne McNally and Paul Schulz from Hill Country Bible Church in Austin, Texas. DeWayne and Paul both serve as executive pastors of ministry by dividing the responsibilities; DeWayne handles the operations, multiplication and family ministries while Paul takes care of the personal/spiritual growth related ministries, including […]

Reframing Evangelism at Your Church with Shaila Visser Dec 15, 2022

Thank for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Shaila Visser, the Global Senior Vice-President for Alpha International. Alpha is an 11-week course that creates a space for people to invite their friends for a conversation about life, faith and Jesus. Worldwide, an increasing number of pastors believe evangelism is wrong. This mindset, […]

Business as Core to the Mission of Your Church with Johnny Scott Dec 08, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to be talking with Johnny Scott, the lead pastor of Generations Church in Trinity, Florida. Ever wonder what a self-sustainable church might look like? Curious about how to use business as ministry? Listen in as Johnny Scott shares how churches can use holy-owned businesses to reach their […]

Working Genius with the Team at Your Church with Patrick Lencioni Dec 01, 2022

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Patrick Lencioni, one of the founders of The Table Group and an expert in leadership, teamwork, and organizational health. Pat’s also the author of 13 books which have sold millions of copies around the world, and today he’s talking with us about […]

In The Trenches of Guiding a Church to Be More Outsider Focused with Chuck Fenwick Nov 24, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Chuck Fenwick, lead pastor at New Haven UMC in Indiana. How do we build churches that are both reaching new people, and caring for the people who are with us? It’s a universal tension all church leaders face. Listen in as […]

What Are the Best Predictors of a Church’s Ability to Multiply Itself? A Warren Bird Conversation Nov 17, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Dr. Warren Bird with us today. He’s the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), and an author of over thirty books. Warren is back to talk about the New Faces of Church Planting survey which was performed back […]

Creating & Sustaining an Empowering Culture at Your Church with Dr. Derry Long Nov 10, 2022

Thanks for joining us here at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derry Long, from the Yellowstone Theological Institute. He’s served for 45 years in many church leadership roles and is here to share his knowledge with us. At churches, it’s not uncommon for 20% of the people to do 80% of the work, […]

Embracing a Team Mentality to Spark Growth at Your Church with Aaron Tredway Nov 03, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast – so glad that you have decided to tune in. This week we have with us Aaron Tredway, Lead Pastor of Fellowship City Church in Ohio. As church leaders, we know that when we empower others, we can accomplish more together than we can alone. But it can be hard […]

Under the Hood of a Multiplying Church of Nearly 30 Church Plants with Josh Husmann Oct 27, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Josh Husmann, lead pastor at Mercy Road Church in Indiana. Mercy Road is one of the top reproducing churches in the country with a passion for multiplying disciples, leaders, churches, and expanding the reach of the gospel throughout the state of […]

Leading Slow & Steady Change in a Fast Growing Church with Mark Williams Oct 20, 2022

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Mark Williams, Executive Pastor at New Day Christian Church in Port Charlotte, Florida. The last few years have seen a lot of changes for church leaders and their congregations. How do you continue to grow and change when people are burned out and […]

Gaining Brand Clarity That Makes Growing Your Church’s Mission Simple with Joey Speers Oct 13, 2022

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to talk with Joey Speers, a brand builder and digital marketer. He and his wife founded the Speers Collective Inc., the parent company of Creativ Rise and Brand Therapy. Joey is talking about how churches can generate brand clarity that makes growing their mission simple […]

Leading Change in the Midst of the Messiness of Ministry with Mike Bonem Oct 06, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mike Bonem, a coach and consultant who helps church leaders with vision discernment, organizational design and strategy. In the last three years, everyone has had to make massive changes. Now as churches have found their new normal and are looking to the future, there can […]

Technology Insights to Drive Ministry Outcomes with Aaron Senneff Sep 29, 2022

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Aaron Senneff, the Chief Technology Officer at Pushpay. Pushpay is a digital engagement platform that provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app, to churches. Technology is more important than ever in the church. But how […]

Outreach Lessons from the Statistically Most Secular City in North America with Jeremy Norton Sep 22, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jeremy Norton, lead pastor at Mountainview Church in Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. Being a church leader in a place like the Yukon is a little like living in the future. Listen in as Jeremy shares how to engage with your neighbors and city in a post-Christian […]

Practical Help on Taking Your Messages from Good to Great with Pete Briscoe Sep 15, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Pete Briscoe, who was the senior pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas for almost thirty years and preached through the Telling the Truth ministry, reaching an audience of more than 1.2 million people every week. Currently Pete is a coach for church and […]

Journey Beyond Burnout & Compassion Fatigue with Janetta Oni Sep 08, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Janetta Oni, the Creative Director at The Summit Church in North Carolina. Compassion fatigue is far more common in ministry than we might like to admit. It can be easy to wear busyness like a badge of honor while burning out in the process. But […]

Inside the Groups Ministry of a Fast Growing Baptist Church with David Raney Sep 01, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with David Raney, the Executive Pastor of Ministry from 2ND Baptist Church in Arkansas. 2ND Baptist is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, and as a growing church they want to make sure people get plugged in so they don’t fade away. Listen in […]

Advice on Taking Your Best Next Step When Life Is Uncertain with Jeff Henderson Aug 25, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jeff Henderson, founder of The FOR Company, which helps organizations build a good name where purpose and profit grow together. Many people are more familiar with what the Church is against rather than what the Church is for. What does your church WANT to […]

Aligning Mission & Organization to Achieve Creative Outcomes with Heath Bottomly Aug 18, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We are talking with Heath Bottomly, the Lead Pastor of Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona. Does your church’s organizational structure match the vision that you believe you have been called to? Listen in as Heath shares how to get clarity about what is true, realign your […]

Leading in the Unchangeable Present with Larry Osborne Aug 11, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Larry Osborne, the Teaching Pastor and Kingdom Ambassador at North Coast Church. North Coast has nine locations in California, one in Ohio, one in Hawaii, and one in both Mexico and Japan. Churches can be tempted to look back to the old way […]

Managing High Performance Multisite Creative Teams with Melody Workman Aug 04, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Executive Creative Director Melody Workman from California-based Sandals Church – one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years now. It’s hard for churches everywhere to build high performance volunteer teams. Often our growth strategy for volunteer teams doesn’t match our […]

Burnout, Perfectionism & Identity: Inside Chris Hahn’s Personal Journey to Restoration Jul 28, 2022

Welcome to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Chris Hahn, the Executive Pastor of Missional Spaces at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. In the demands and activity of ministry, church leaders can find there is a disconnect between their public leadership and struggles in their personal lives. Don’t miss today’s podcast […]

Leading Through Healthy Open Brokenness & Vulnerability with Carl Kuhl Jul 21, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Carl Kuhl with us, the lead pastor of one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Mosaic Christian Church in the Baltimore/Washington, DC area. Listen in as Carl shares about the missing piece that will help people in our churches go deeper, both with God […]

The Surprising Journey Toward Being a Community Focused & Fast Growing Church with Vern Streeter Jul 14, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Vern Streeter, the lead pastor at Harvest Church in Billings, Montana. Harvest Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the country and has had a long-time value of being community-focused. Listen in as Vern chats with us about paying attention to the […]

Balancing A Growing Family & Ministry with Paula Ley Jul 07, 2022

Welcome back to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Paula Ley, executive pastor at Radiant Church in the Tampa Bay area. Paula is talking with us about the spheres of influence in our lives and how to balance the busy seasons of ministry while still prioritizing our most important relationships. Ministry is […]

Latest Church Trends Post-COVID with Tony Morgan Jun 30, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tony Morgan, the founder and lead strategist of The Unstuck Group, which offers consulting and coaching for churches as well as practical resources such as courses, access to research and more – all to help churches get unstuck. The Unstuck Group does quarterly trend reports that […]

Healing the Racial Divide in Your Church with Derwin Gray Jun 23, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derwin Gray, the lead pastor at Transformation Church in South Carolina. In the bible we see every nation, tribe, and tongue worshiping Christ together, yet in our country and churches we continually see examples of the racial divide. Listen in as Derwin shares […]

Leading in Our Churches & Community in this Current Moment with Dino Rizzo Jun 16, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. In this episode we’ll be chatting with Dino Rizzo, the executive director of the Association of Related Churches (ARC) as well as part of the senior leadership team at Church of the Highlands. ARC was created in 2000 by six pastors and has grown to be a preeminent church […]

International Business & Marketing Coach Chris Ducker Offers Advice for Church Leaders Jun 09, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with marketplace leader Chris Ducker, who is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and runs several businesses. As churches find themselves more a part of the online world, there is continually a challenge to connect with people in a meaningful way. Listen in as Chris shares how to […]

Helpful Insights for Church Leaders with Brian Dodd Jun 02, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This time we’re talking with Brian Dodd, the Director of New Ministry Partnerships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions. He also runs a blog called Brian Dodd on Leadership which provides perspective, encouragement, and solutions for church and ministry leaders. When you look at the world today, there seems […]

Coaching on Rebuilding a “New” Launch Team for Your Church with Shawn Lovejoy May 26, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Shawn Lovejoy, the founder and CEO of Courageous Pastors and Courage to Lead. His work is all about coaching leaders around what keeps them up at night and focuses on personal and organizational growth. Shawn is talking with us about building and redeploying healthy teams in […]

Reflecting Back 5+ Years After a Sr. Leader Transition with Executive Pastor Kevin Cook May 19, 2022

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kevin Cook, executive pastor at Cross Point Church in the greater Nashville, Tennessee, area. They have six locations in middle Tennessee plus online services. God has entrusted those of us who are executive pastors with a significant leadership. While He may be preparing […]

Encouragement For You From Nearly 4 Decades of Ministry Experience with Greg Surratt May 12, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Greg Surratt, the founding pastor of Seacoast Church in the Carolinas and also a founding member of ARC, Association of Related Churches, which trains, coaches, and equips church plants across the country. So many pastors are wrestling with similar concerns and soul care issues today. They are […]

Pushing Your Church’s Culture Forward in This Current Season with Jenni Catron May 05, 2022

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenni Catron, the founder and CEO of the 4Sight Group which helps both leaders and their teams be healthy and thriving. With the disruptions that covid has brought, many church leaders are struggling with a sense of overload and fatigue. Shifts in how we […]

Insights on Pastoral Restoration After a Fall with Shawn & Sonny Hennessy Apr 28, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Shawn and Sonny Hennessy, from Life Church Green Bay in Wisconsin. Shawn and Sonny are also co-hosts of The Rise After the Fall podcast and together founded The Exchange Collaborative. The highs and lows of ministry, and the trials of life can threaten to destroy pastors […]

Latest HR Dynamics Impacting Your Church With Tiffany Henning Apr 21, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tiffany Henning, founder of HR Ministry Solutions which helps with human resources in churches and faith-based ministries. At the beginning of 2021, many churches were restructuring their staff. Now in 2022 with so much inflation, there are concerns about how to compensate staff fairly. These things […]

Helping You & Your Team Ditch Discouragement, Fear and Anxiety with Scot Longyear Apr 14, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scot Longyear, the senior pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana, and guest host for the Worship Leader Probs podcast. Two years after the pandemic, church leaders are still trying to figure out where to go from here. It’s been a tough season to […]

Moving Beyond the Stream of Church Online with Jay Kranda Apr 07, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda, the online pastor of Saddleback Church in California. Digital ministry is here to stay and churches need to think about how to move beyond just managing their weekend stream to actually connecting people online to the church and each […]

Shifting Paradigms Impacting Growing Churches with Sean Morgan Mar 31, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Sean Morgan, founder of The Ascent Leader, a year-long development program structured around relational cohorts which is designed to engage ministry leaders in transparent conversations and one-on-one coaching with world-class leaders. As we transition from COVID being pandemic to endemic, there are paradigms church leaders have […]

Tips for Making Your Church More Single Friendly with Kaylee Estes Mar 24, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kaylee Estes who was the Connections Pastor at Restoration Community Church in Denver, Colorado. More and more people are single in our churches today than in previous generations. Younger people are waiting longer to get married, the divorce rate continues to increase, and […]

Inside a 4X Growth In Group Engagement at a Growing Church with Joe Boyd Mar 17, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Joe Boyd, lead pastor of Grace Fellowship in Minnesota. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country as well as a church-planting church and have started 28 churches during their 34 years of service. Jesus changed the world with a small group. Groups […]

Crucial Conversations with Team Members at Your Church with Matt Slocum Mar 10, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Matt Slocum, executive pastor at Victory Life Church in Battle Creek, Michigan. Conflict is inevitable in relationships and it’s important to handle it well. Matt is talking with us today about how Victory Life Church sought to help its staff get better at having crucial […]

Is Church Multiplication on the Rise? Don’t Miss This Conversation with Warren Bird Mar 03, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Warren Bird, the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. It’s time for a fresh look to see what God is doing, especially coming out of the pandemic. If you’re wondering how church planting […]

Office Hours: Volunteer Recruiting Best Practices & Reaching New People Feb 24, 2022

Welcome to this month’s Office Hours episode. This month Rich is taking on your questions about building volunteer teams, and reaching people who might not normally attend your services. Leslie Moffat, administrative pastor, Celebration Church in Brantford, Ontario, Canada: “For churches with multiple services, do you recommend the same volunteers stay on for the entire […]

Stop Copying and Pasting the Announcements for Your Church! Feb 22, 2022

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I know this sounds like some homespun advice from your mom, but it does apply to looking for resources on the internet to improve the weekend services or announcements at your church. A quick search online will reveal an endless amount of templates and done-for-you resources that […]

In-Person Community & Bold Digital Innovation in a Lonely World with Benjamin Windle Feb 17, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with return guest Benjamin Windle from Life Place Church in Australia. Whether or not churches are going to opt in to the digital revolution is no longer an option. Now the question is, how do churches operate and minister in a digital world, particularly to younger […]

9 Tiny Habits That Can Cause Huge Disengagement During Announcements Feb 15, 2022

When you have a little pebble in your shoe, it’s hard to focus on anything around you besides that minor discomfort, right? We sometimes do the same thing with our tiny habits during our weekend service announcements. What about that little smudge from your kid’s finger on the TV as you watch the latest Hollywood […]

Increasing the Impact of the Serving Experience on Volunteers with Rachel Long Feb 10, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Rachel Long back on the podcast. She’s one of the executive pastors at Emmanuel Church, a multisite church in Indiana. Today Rachel is talking with us about building healthy volunteer teams within our churches. You can learn more about Emmanuel Church at www.eclife.org, […]

Why Church Leaders Can’t Stand Doing Announcements Feb 08, 2022

Do you dread being asked to get up and host a weekend service at your church? Can just talking about hosting the announcements this coming weekend make your stomach turn? Is your team pushing you to drop the announcements? And maybe even more worrying, do you have a good reason not to drop them? Are […]

Increasing Multi-Faith Proximity While Remaining Gospel-Centered with Kevin Singer Feb 03, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Kevin Singer, co-founder and co-director of the student-led movement, Neighborly Faith, which brings Christians and Muslims together. There is very little in the church to help equip believers regarding how to engage with our neighbors of other faiths in a way that […]

5 Leadership Hedges Against Inflation for Your Church Feb 01, 2022

Just when you thought the word “unprecedented” couldn’t possibly be used any more, we continue to climb into levels of inflation that haven’t been seen in over four decades. In fact, the last time we saw inflation this high, the world was a completely different place. We find ourselves leading in an environment of increasing […]

Office Hours: Attracting Young Families & Help with Hiring Your Next Team Member Jan 27, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this month’s Office Hours podcast episode. Today Rich is answering your questions about attracting young families and getting help with hiring your next team member. John Boyle, executive pastor, Calvary Bible Church in Boulder, Colorado: “I wanted to pick your brain on attracting more young families to our church.” Know […]

Mega to Meta? Your First Step in Starting a Metaverse Ministry with Jason Poling Jan 20, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jason Poling, lead pastor of Cornerstone Church of Yuba City in California. For the first ten years of Jason’s ministry as a pastor, he felt like he had been living in “maintenance mode.” While his church was experiencing growth, some of which was due to brand […]

Best Practices in Onboarding New Staff with Ken McAnulty Jan 13, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken McAnulty, executive pastor at Arise Church in Florida. The hiring process is tough, and ramping up new staff can be awkward and stressful if it isn’t done with a lot of intentionality. Ken is with us today to talk about how to […]

Rebuilding a Team Culture That Was Broken with Jesse DeYoung Jan 06, 2022

Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jesse DeYoung, the executive lead pastor at Flatirons Community Church in Boulder, Colorado. Jesse is talking with us today about how Flatirons Church worked through a difficult season of ministry, addressed their broken team culture, and witnessed God’s redemption among the staff. Recognize what’s not […]

Connection & Engagement Lessons from a Fast Growing Church During the Pandemic with Julie Hawkins Dec 23, 2021

Today we’re chatting with Julie Hawkins, the Next Steps Pastor at Chapel Hill Church in Washington state. So many churches had to quickly develop an online presence at the beginning of 2020 and it made the area of helping people take their next steps more challenging. Listen in as Julie shares how Chapel Hill Church […]

Helping Female Leaders in Your Church Find Their Leadership Voice with Kadi Cole Dec 16, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole, the founder of Kadi Cole & Company, an organization created to help leaders of all organizations. Kadi is with us today to talk about encouraging female leaders at your church while removing barriers from leadership opportunities. Find the drop off. // Many men in […]

Building a Team Culture at Your Church that You’ll Love with Brian Cook Dec 09, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brian Cook, the lead pastor of ACF Church (Alliance Christian Fellowship) in Eagle River, Alaska. Right now 4.5 million people in the US are quitting their job every month and 50% are looking for a new job. Staff culture is a big […]

Helping Teams Leverage, Not Loathe, Personality Differences with Eddie Hastings Dec 02, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Eddie Hastings, Executive Pastor of Ministries at Chets Creek Church in Florida. Eddie is talking with us about using personality tests to better build and communicate with your staff teams. Know and trust each other. // When a church grows, especially to have multiple campuses, […]

Bonus Deep Dive: Health Care Sharing For Churches? Marq James Helps Us Clear Up Misconceptions Dec 01, 2021

Are you a senior leader in church thinking about health care options for your team? Did you know that your team is anxious about this aspect of serving at your church? Today on unSeminary we want to help with that worry & stress. We are joined by Marq James, an expert in health care sharing […]

If Jesus Gave a TED Talk? Neuroscience Communication Principles The Master Teacher Used To Persuade His Audience with Charles Stone Nov 25, 2021

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Charles Stone, lead pastor at West Park Church in Ontario, Canada. He also is an author and provides training for pastors. 75% of people forget most of what they’ve heard from a talk within an hour. 90% forget what they’ve heard after a week […]

Leading a Fast Growing Church While Having Healthy Rhythms & Boundaries with Zeb Cook Nov 11, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Zeb Cook, the lead pastor at Apex Baptist Church in Apex, North Carolina. Zeb is talking with us today about establishing healthy rhythms and boundaries in your life so that you can continue to thrive in the ministry where God has called you. Create a system […]

Going International as a Multisite Church with Tommie Bozich Nov 04, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tommie Bozich, the executive pastor of Trinity Church, a multisite church with locations in Virginia and also internationally. Tommie is talking with us about what led them to launch a location in Stuttgart, Germany, and what a church should think about when considering […]

Practical Advice on Fostering a Kingdom Mindset In Your Church with Brian McMillan Oct 14, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Brian McMillan, from CenterPoint Church in Long Island, New York. Brian is talking with us today about how pastors can keep their souls healthy by being generous and Kingdom-minded toward church plants coming into their area. Challenges of church planting. // When planting a church, […]

Moving from Paid to Volunteer Music Teams in a Fast Growing Multisite Church with Stone Meyer Oct 07, 2021

Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stone Meyer, executive pastor from The Bridge Church in Tennessee. Stone is talking with us today about the musical worship part of services and how to develop excellence in your unpaid volunteer musicians. The musical worship aspect. // The musical worship aspect of services […]

Moving from Maintenance to Movement in this Season with Van Vandegriff Sep 30, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Van Vandegriff, lead pastor at Cedarcrest Church in Acworth, Georgia. Van is talking with us today about dealing with COVID and helping people at the church to shift out of neutral and reengage with the mission of the church. Reengage with the mission. // […]

Sermon Planning Rhythms that Produce Engaging & Faithful Content with Zach Lambert Sep 23, 2021

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Zach Lambert, lead pastor at Restore Austin in Austin, Texas. Zach is with us today to talk about how to take the stress out of sermon planning and coming up with biblical and engaging topics in your teaching. What are you preaching […]

Building Staff Culture While Leading During Trying Times with Rusty George Sep 16, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George, the lead pastor at Real Life Church in the Los Angeles area. He’s talking with us today about what it’s like stepping into the lead pastor role after the founding pastor. You can learn more about Real Life Church at reallifechurch.org and about Rusty […]

How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor with Carey Nieuwhof Sep 09, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Carey Nieuwhof, a leadership expert, author, speaker, podcaster, former attorney, and church planter. He’s with us today to share about how to address the crisis of overwhelm in our work and lives. Digital scales in a way that physical doesn’t. // After the pandemic, we […]

Leading Change That Lasts with Hillsong Atlanta’s Lisette Fraser Aug 12, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Lisette Fraser, the COO/executive pastor of Hillsong Atlanta. Leading through change is at the core of serving as an executive pastor and church leader. Today Lisette is talking with us about where to begin when stepping out and leading change in this […]

Inside Team Culture Development at a Fast Growing Church with Chad Asman Aug 05, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Chad Asman, executive pastor of Heritage Church just north of Detroit, Michigan. He is with us today to talk about developing team culture at your church to create future leaders. Start with culture. // Heritage Church worked to create a leadership pipeline not only […]

How to Get Traction on Execution at Your Church with Allie Bryant Jul 29, 2021

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Allie Bryant from Trader’s Point Christian Church. Although they have six campuses in Indianapolis, currently four are opened along with church online due to covid. Allie is the Strategic Alignment Executive for Traders Point and she loves getting the right people in the room to […]

Balancing the Healthy Tensions of the Executive Pastor Role with Tyler Althof Jul 22, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Tyler Althof, the associate pastor from Action Church in Florida. Tyler is with us today to talk about tensions to manage when you are leading from the second chair at a church. We need a sense of security. // As church leaders we need to […]

Tackling the Early Days as a New Executive Pastor with Matt Gilchrist Jul 15, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Matt Gilchrist, executive pastor at Hope City Church in Missouri. Matt is talking with us about getting up to speed as a new XP at a church and how to connect with your lead pastor, your staff, and spouse during this season […]

Improving Your Church’s Financial Competencies with Ken Fisher Jul 08, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken Fisher, Executive Pastor at Church at the Mill in South Carolina. As one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Church at the Mill has doubled in size in the last five years. As a church grows, the staff needs to consider how they […]

Leveraging Research to Drive Design & Communication Insights at Crossroads Church with Vivienne Bechtold Jul 01, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to be talking with Vivienne Bechtold, the Director of Studio and Leadership Development at Crossroads Church in Ohio. Crossroads has been one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years, but this growth hasn’t happened without being intentional about reaching those […]

Moving from Pre-Recorded Church Online to Live with JD Mason Jun 24, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with JD Mason, the online campus leader from Liberty Live Church in Virginia. JD is chatting with us today about how church online has evolved for Liberty Live Church since the pandemic and why they made the decision to transition to live, rather than prerecorded, broadcasts. Trial […]

Bonus Deep Dive: Current Best Practices in Operational Reserves for Your Church with Steve Carr Jun 23, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re doing a bonus deep dive about operational reserves and how much our churches should be saving. We have expert Steve Carr from CDF Capital with us to help us think through these questions. Maintain generosity. // During the pandemic, churches trended toward either maintaining their […]

National Church Leader Survey on Attitudes Towards In-Person, Remote, or Hybrid Work Arrangements Jun 22, 2021

Is your team moving back to an “in-person” office experience? Do you know how your team members feel about working at home once life looks a little more normal? What does the future of church leadership work arrangements look like? We must understand the impact that COVID-19 has had on our church leadership environment and […]

Rebuilding Connection At Your Church Post-COVID with Abby Ecker Jun 17, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Abby Ecker, Next Steps Pastor from The Journey in Delaware. She’s with us today to talk about getting people connected and helping them take steps from just attending weekend gatherings to moving into the core of the church. Help people take steps, not leaps. […]

Expanding the Leadership Voices at Your Table with Jeannette Cochran Jun 10, 2021

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re chatting with Jeannette Cochran, executive pastor Seneca Creek Community Church in Maryland. Jeannette is talking with us today about what it is like being a female executive pastor in a church and how you can empower more women to engage their gifts and lead […]

5 Mindsets Church Leaders Need to Change Post-COVID Jun 09, 2021

As the leader goes, so goes the organization. It’s often been said that the mindset of a leader ultimately drives the behavior of an organization. It’s a scary thought when you consider that our internal thought life can express itself in the people that we consistently lead. I think this is a truism when it […]

Season of Hope: Your Church’s Fall 2021 Growth Opportunity Jun 08, 2021

The coming months hold an unprecedented opportunity to see your church impact more people than ever before. As the country begins to shake off the shackles of COVID-19 and the ensuing economic calamity, we’re seeing new windows of opportunity. We must leverage this season for the message of Jesus. We can echo what Paul said […]

Focusing on Jesus in a Distracted World with Steve Brown Jun 03, 2021

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dr. Steve Brown, President of Arrow Leadership and author of the book Jesus Centered: Focusing On Jesus In A Distracted World. Steve works to help leaders find clarity, community and confidence in their work as Jesus-centered leaders. He’s talking with us today about how to lead […]

Improving Your Working Partnership with an Executive Assistant with Jannet Morgan May 27, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Jannet Morgan, the Executive Assistant (EA) to Lead Pastor, Tim Lucas, at Liquid Church in New Jersey. She’s with us today to talk about the role of the EA supporting leadership in the church and how to make the most out of that partnership. Be […]

Applying Pandemic Learnings from Church Online to Post-Pandemic Church with Jenn Clauser May 20, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenn Clauser, the Director of Communications at Coker United Methodist Church in San Antonio, Texas. She’s with us today to dig deeper into online church and how to integrate it as a core part of our mission to reaching people who are far […]

Is Your Team Languishing? Practical Help for Executive Pastors. May 18, 2021

It’s clear that we’re entering a post-pandemic stress period in the life of the local church. All around us we see signs that our teams are stressed and not sure what to do next. Anecdotally, we’re hearing about huge turnover at churches, and we cannot ignore the rising anxiety in leaders across the country. Recently, […]

Pete Briscoe’s Lessons from Coming Alongside Senior Leaders to Help with Communication & Self Care May 13, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Pete Briscoe, who served as the senior pastor for nearly three decades at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, and now consults with and coaches pastors. He is with us today to talk about growing communication skills to improve preaching as well as how […]

Pitfalls and Possibilities of VR Church with Jonathan Armstrong May 06, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Jonathan Armstrong today, an educator who has also helped run the virtual reality (VR) lab at Moody Bible Institute. Our perspective on what technology is and how it’s affecting our world keeps changing. In fact as younger generations have grown up with […]

Practical Strategy for Developing High-Capacity Volunteers with Danny Franks Apr 29, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast! This week I’m chatting with a repeat guest, Danny Franks, Pastor of Guest Services at The Summit Church. The Summit Church has twelve locations around North Carolina and the heart of the church is set on sending. They continually want their people to be asking: how does God want […]

Practical Help for Church Leaders in Emotional and Spiritual Growth with Bill & Kristi Gaultiere Apr 22, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Bill and Kristi Gaultiere from the organization Soul Shepherding. Bill and Kristi felt called to study psychology for the purpose of ministry, and serve as spiritual directors and pastors to pastors. Soul Shepherding offers resources and training for pastors and leaders and […]

How to Beat the Spring Lull & Gain Momentum at Your Church Apr 21, 2021

The season between Easter and summer is a strange one in the life of a church. Many churches gain momentum coming up to Easter and then find the weeks that follow before summer arrives, drag on. In any other year, this lull in momentum can feel difficult to climb out of; however, this spring is […]

Turning Obstacles into Opportunities: Church Real Estate Lessons with Andy Wood Apr 15, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Andy Wood, founding and lead pastor of Echo Church in California. Many times in ministry, the thing that should be an obstacle actually can become an opportunity if we think about it differently. Echo Church held strongly to this idea when it […]

Loving the Church You Serve with Carl Kuhl Apr 08, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with church planter and lead pastor Carl Kuhl from Mosaic Christian Church in Maryland. Mosaic was planted in the fall of 2008, launching first in a movie theater, and has become one of the fastest growing churches in the country. When planting a […]

3 Key Lessons For Your Church From a Study of 20,000 Online Events Apr 06, 2021

Recently, a report entitled The State of Virtual Events 2021 was released, which looked at the experiences of 100 leading brands that ran over 20,000 online events in the last year. This study explores these brands’ thinking around online events as they have made the “great pivot” to utilize this option more and more. Like […]

Helping Leaders Slow Down with Christa Hesselink Apr 01, 2021

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Christa Hesselink, founder of the organization SoulPlay. SoulPlay offers creative experiences, curated resources, and personal support to help individuals and groups dig deeper, listen well, and journey towards loving themselves, others, God, and our world, well. The last twelve months have been incredibly […]

How to Help People Who are Burned, Bruised, or Wounded in Your Church with Steve Grusendorf Mar 25, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Steve Grusendorf who is a part of the denominal leadership at the Christian and Missionary Alliance. He started as a local pastor at a CMA church, always serving in leadership development, and a few years ago became involved in this aspect at […]

Pandemic to Endemic: Five Questions Your Church May Still Need to Answer About COVID-19 Mar 23, 2021

The cultural and economic impact of COVID-19 is one of the greatest influences on the local church in at least a generation. Over the last year, we’ve seen COVID-19 impact our ministries in innumerable ways. In some respects, COVID-19 has accelerated positive change in the local church. The shift to equipping the majority of churches […]

Working at Health while Facilitating for Growth with Renaut van der Riet Mar 18, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Renaut van der Riet from Mosaic Church in the Orlando, Florida area. Passionate about making the gospel beautiful however they can, Mosaic is continually pursuing how they can serve each other and how they can serve their community. This heart has led to […]

Practical Help for Church Leaders Dealing with Home Life Pressures with Michelle Leichty Mar 11, 2021

Thanks for joining in to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Michelle Leichty, the Communication Director at Covenant Church in Indiana. For many church leaders, managing their homes and serving in ministry has been especially challenging to balance during the pandemic. Shifting back and forth between work burdens […]

Speaking Truth to the Hearts of Executive Pastors with Kevin Davis Mar 04, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Kevin Davis from 2|42 Community Church in Michigan. Kevin is one of the executive pastors and focuses on small groups, culture, and leadership development. What makes a good ministry leader? How can you learn to lead yourself well? How do you work through conflict […]

Moving a Fast Growing Multisite Church from Centralized to Decentralized Leadership Structure with Rachel Long Feb 25, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Rachel Long, Executive Pastor of Families and Multisites at Emmanuel Church in the greater Indianapolis area. Making the decision to go multisite and growing to multiple campuses will inevitably lead to a discussion about who answers to who on staff. The dotted […]

The Reason Your Church Marketing Isn’t Working Feb 23, 2021

Are you wondering why those Facebook ads that you’ve been running for the last few months don’t seem to be translating into people connecting, neither in person nor online? Have you tried multiple flyer drops in your neighborhood and you’re desperately hoping that maybe one person would show up, but it just hasn’t happened? Are […]

Something is Broken: A Conversation About What Christian Leaders Should Stop Saying about Sexual Abusers with Tanya Marlow Feb 19, 2021

This is a special edition of the unSeminary podcast. Many church leaders don’t know what to say when it comes to the revelations around disgraced Christian leader, Ravi Zacharias. Earlier this week I bumped into Tayna Marlow’s article on this topic entitled “But his books are still good, right? – 5 things Christians must stop […]

Everyday Ways to Help Your People Change the World with Dave & Jon Ferguson Feb 18, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to have Dave and Jon Ferguson with us from Community Christian Church. Community has nine locations in Illinois as well as online services and works in three correctional facilities. Almost all Christians want to share the love of Jesus with their friends and neighbors. […]

Former Divorce Lawyer Offers Perspectives on Marriage with Toni Nieuwhof Feb 11, 2021

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Toni Nieuwhof. Toni’s extensive experience as a family lawyer, pharmacist, and church leader has given her unique and practical insights on how people grow emotionally, personally and spiritually. Although we don’t know the impacts of the pandemic on marriages and the […]

Increase Your Church’s Volunteer Teams with This Proven Multisite Expansion Tactic Feb 09, 2021

Does your church have fewer volunteers today than it did a year ago? Are you wondering how you’re going to rebuild your church’s teams after everything that’s happened with COVID-19 and the way our culture has changed as a result of the pandemic? Have you wondered where you go next when it comes to gaining […]

Increasing Prayer, Transparency and Accountability on Your Church Team with Darrell Roland Feb 04, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Darrell Roland, from Rock Bridge Community Church. They have six locations in Georgia and Tennessee as well as a Spanish service. One of the roles of the executive pastor is the management and leadership of the staff, and so today we’re talking about […]

MrBeast Burger: What Is It? What It Can Teach Your Church! Feb 02, 2021

If you’re not familiar with YouTube culture, you might not have heard of MrBeast. Jimmy Donaldson (aka MrBeast) is the top content creator on the platform for 2020, and he’s super engaging. Over the years, he’s produced some amazingly creative content that has earned him over 51 million subscribers and all kinds of awards. He […]

Becoming A Multicultural Church with Dave Swaim Jan 28, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dave Swaim, pastor at Highrock Covenant Church and president of the Highrock Network in the Boston area. The Highrock Network is a family of churches with a shared vision for locally focused congregations. Highrock Covenant Church began when a group of “spiritually homeless” individuals started […]

Carey Nieuwhof Interviews Rich Birch as unSeminary Celebrates 1.5 Million Downloads! Jan 25, 2021

This week we’re celebrating YOU, dear listeners! We always want to do everything we can to set you up for success – we’re always cheering for you! We’ve reached out to some friends who love serving church leaders like you and have put together some fun giveaways in honor of hitting 1.5 million downloads on […]

Church Based Justice Ministry That Doesn’t Drift from a Firm Faith-Based Foundation with Aaron Graham Jan 21, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Graham, the lead pastor of The District Church in Washington, DC. The District Church was started in 2010 with the desire to be a church for the city, impacting it for Christ one neighborhood at a time. In an area where […]

5 Forgotten Ingredients in Your Church’s Giving Moments Jan 19, 2021

The two minutes before you ask people to give to your church during your services are vitally important financially, both for the future of your church and for your people. Giving moments are an important part of your church’s system for increasing generosity and pushing the mission of your church forward. If your church is […]

Lead with What Your Church CAN DO with Chris Bell Jan 14, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Chris Bell, from 3Circle Church in the Mobile, Alabama area. When the pandemic started, all we heard about was new restrictions and what we couldn’t do. Chris was immediately challenged to focus on what the church CAN do each day. Listen in as Chris shares […]

5 Mistakes Churches Make Onboarding New Staff Jan 12, 2021

Hiring is the single most expensive decision that most church leaders will make over the course of their ministry. In many churches, staffing accounts for anywhere between 30 percent and 50 percent of the annual budget. You want to make sure that, as you hire new team members, you invest what you can at the […]

Helping Your People Add Keystone Habits that Grow Their Spiritual Lives in 2021 with Zach Zehnder Jan 08, 2021

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Zach Zehnder with us today, the author and founder of the Red Letter Challenge. RLC began with the simple concept of trying to help people be greater followers of Jesus. It started as a book, leading the reader on a 40-day life-changing discipleship experience […]

Recall: Your Church’s 2021 Strategic Communication Focus Jan 05, 2021

You have no doubt heard all the doomsayers saying that what we’ve experienced in the last year is beckoning a new age of disengagement in your church. You’ve probably heard people say that somewhere around a third of our people have left the church and won’t be returning. It seems like for decades, we’ve been […]

Inspiring Reflections on 2020 from Chicago with Mark Jobe Dec 24, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking to Mark Jobe, senior pastor at New Life Community Church (NLCC) in Chicago area and president of Moody Bible institute. New Life Community Church meets primarily in the city and has 28 locations with 40+ worship services. It’s a very multi-ethnic church with […]

Lessons From Casting Vision & Pushing Forward During the Pandemic with Drew Sherman Dec 17, 2020

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Drew Sherman, lead pastor of Compass Christian Church in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Compass has four physical locations as well as an online campus and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. The most fruitful seasons of our lives […]

Adding More Structure While Staying Relational in a Growing Church with Mark Geissbauer Dec 10, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have with us Executive Pastor Mark Geissbauer from The Chapel which has three locations near Lake Erie. As a church grows, adding more structure is necessary to keep everyone in the loop and enable systems to operate smoothly. But how do you maintain a personal touch while adding […]

How Your Congregation Can Adapt and Thrive after a Crisis with Karl Vaters Dec 03, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Karl Vaters, a teaching pastor at Cornerstone Christian Fellowship as well as an author and speaker. Karl focuses on serving small churches, encouraging their growth and helping them to be healthy. 2020 has been a tough year between the pandemic, economic stress, social […]

Connection Between Community Service & Church Growth with Kyle & Justeina Brownlee Nov 26, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Kyle and Justeina Brownlee from Xperience Church in Ohio. At Xperience Church, going beyond their walls to serve their community isn’t just something they do, it’s who they are. Listen in as Kyle and Justeina share about how to build a culture of […]

Using Tech to Increase Bible Engagement at Your Church with Scott Lindsey Nov 19, 2020

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re honored to have with us today Scott Lindsey, the executive director at Faithlife. Faithlife is the company which created the Logos Bible Software for digital Bible study. Scott is with us today to talk about Faithlife, how they can help you, and how you can […]

Millennials, Gen Z and Your Church with Benjamin Windle Nov 12, 2020

Thanks so much for joining us for another unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Benjamin Windle. A native Australian, Benjamin has worked as a youth and young adult pastor in the US and currently helps churches develop Generational Intelligence in reaching Millennials and Gen Z through an assortment of resources, coaching, and speaking. According to […]

3 Myths about FutureFWD. Plus Dr. Henry Cloud Nov 07, 2020

Are you and your team registered for FutureFWD? You should be. Join us. Imagine you could get inside the minds of leaders who are thinking through where the local church is going next. What would it be like to understand how leading churches are thinking about what the future holds? Listen in to today’s special […]

Lessons In Getting People Back to In-Person Services with Kyle Mercer Nov 05, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast! Today we have lead pastor Kyle Mercer with us from Two Cities Church in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Two Cities was originally planted out of The Summit Church with J.D. Greear in 2016 and grew to about 1300 people before covid, becoming one of the fastest growing churches in the country. […]

A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam Oct 29, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have David Putnam with us today. David spent many years as a church planter and executive pastor and today consults with churches as a lead navigator with Auxano. David has also founded the organization Planting the Gospel which helps transition churches from a weekend-only disciple-making culture. […]

3 Ways FutureFWD Was Designed with Your Team in Mind. Plus Jenni Catron on Culture. Oct 28, 2020

Designed to help encourage collaboration. FutureFWD will have “future positive” tone that embraces the world we find ourselves in and gives helpful next steps to leaders like you. You and your team will leave energized and focused to lead into 2021 and beyond. FutureFWD is designed to encourage and equip your team to push forward […]

Thriving in the Midst of Life’s Storms with Ben Young Oct 22, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we have Dr. Ben Young with us, who is a writer and pastor at Second Baptist Church, a diverse, multi-ethnic church with over 20,000 people attending weekly services online and on six campuses throughout the city of Houston. Technology and the fact that we’ve become […]

How Will Your Team Benefit from FutureFWD? Plus: What’s Next? Justice. by Efrem Smith Oct 21, 2020

You and your team will leave energized and focused to lead into 2021 and beyond. FutureFWD is designed to encourage and equip your team to push forward with the plan God has in store for your church. Leading voices investing in your team. You’ll get to hear from marquee leaders across the church on how […]

Why should you register for FutureFWD? PLUS Larry Osborne on Both/And Leadership. Oct 14, 2020

Imagine you could get inside the minds of leaders who are thinking through where the local church is going next. What would it be like to understand how leading churches are thinking about what the future holds? In today’s episode, Kenny Jahng and I sit down and talk about FutureFWD. This is a 2-day online […]

From Plateaued for 30 Years to One of the Fastest Growing Churches in the Country with Bob Riedy Oct 08, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Bob Riedy from the Church of the Open Door (COD) in York, Pennsylvania. COD was started in the early 50s after breaking off of a mainline denomination. They experienced rapid growth for about 30 years, but then plateaued for the next 30 years. Today COD […]

Challenge Your People to Grow In Their Faith with Gregg Farah Oct 01, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Gregg Farah joining us from Shelter Rock Church in Long Island, New York. Why is the Church at large struggling so much to help people grow in their relationship with Christ? Many sincere followers of Jesus feel stuck or stalled in their faith. […]

Lessons from COVID-19 & the Reopening Phase in Australia for Your Church with John Finkelde Sep 24, 2020

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m glad you’ve decided to tune in as we talk with John Finkelde. John has thirty plus years of pastoral experience in Australia and currently runs the organization Grow a Healthy Church. He consults with and coaches churches and church leaders all over the world, helping […]

Community Service & Outreach in the Reopening Phase. Roundtable discussion with Heath Hollandsworth, Johnny Ova & Eric Jaffe Sep 22, 2020

This is an unprecedented season of opportunity for your church. In today’s episode we’re going to look under the hood at three churches that are involved in some pretty amazing community service and outreach in the reopening phase. Heath Hollandsworth, Executive Pastor of Ministries – Graystone Church, Georgia // Graystone Church believes one of the reasons […]

Leading a Thriving Small Groups Ministry with Ryan Hartwig Sep 17, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Ryan T. Hartwig with us today. Ryan is Professor of Communication at Colorado Christian University and has studied collaborative organizations within the church, such as groups and teams. Ryan is with us to talk about a new book that he wrote with Courtney W. Davis and […]

Practical Help Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Jacob Burgei Sep 10, 2020

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jacob Burgei today from Fuel Church in Kokomo, Indiana. Fuel Church launched in 2016 with about 85 people but as they began to understand the needs in their community, they quickly grew to become one of the fastest growing churches in the country. […]

From Steep Decline to One of the Fastest Growing Churches in the Country with Todd Elliott Sep 03, 2020

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today’s guest is Todd Elliott from Beach Church in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Beach Church was founded in 1992 and Todd began as the Small Groups Pastor in 2007. During that time, a falling out between the lead pastor and executive pastor led to them both […]

Multisite Alignment by Leveraging Objectives & Key Results with Michael Volbeda Aug 27, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Michael Volbeda, Executive Pastor of Ministries at Brentwood Baptist Church in the Nashville, Tennessee area. Brentwood went from two to four campuses in 2014 and has since grown to eight locations. As time went on, the church realized it was operating as if it […]

What are leading churches doing for weekend programming this fall? Roundtable discussion with Ben Stapley, Chris Vacher & Brian Tome. Aug 26, 2020

How committed are we really to forging the future rather than preserving the past? Today we’ve got another special episode of the unSeminary podcast where we sit down with three fantastic church leaders from around North America—Ben Stapley, Chris Vacher and Brian Tome—and ask them some questions about the future that is the Fall 2020. […]

Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Tony McVickers Aug 20, 2020

Welcome to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Senior Pastor Tony McVickers from RockFish Church in North Carolina. RockFish Church is a multi-racial, multi-cultural church located near Fort Bragg and draws a large number of military members and families to its services. But this also means that RockFish Church has to […]

Hosting an Outdoor Church Service that Reaches People with Hal Seed Aug 19, 2020

Today’s episode is a special “rushed” edition of the podcast. We wanted to get you this up to the minute help for your church. Many churches are looking for advice on how to hold outdoor services and in today’s episode, we dive deep with Hal Seed on this issue! Hal is the lead and founding […]

Keeping Your Church Focused on Reaching Unchurched People with Brent Purvis Aug 13, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Lead Pastor Brent Purvis with us from Cascade Hills Church in Georgia. Cascade Hills Church was started by Brent’s father, Bill, after a dramatic near death experience caused him to give his life to Christ. Cascade Hills has always been a church […]

5 Church Budget Items to Rethink for Fall 2020 Aug 11, 2020

As we look to the coming months, a tremendous amount of uncertainty still remains. Many church leaders across the country are facing huge pressures from COVID-19 and the ensuing economic crisis. Budgetary pressures are leading us to rethink many aspects of the way our churches invest their resources. We find ourselves in a prolonged reopening […]

Building Bridges Between Anglo and Hispanic Churches with Raul Burgos Aug 06, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Raul Burgos from Comunidad Cristiana in New Jersey. Raul grew up in the Dominican Republic and emigrated to the US when he was in his 20s. He’s spent the second half of his life immersed in American culture and has helped plant both English-speaking and Spanish-speaking […]

7 Reasons Your Church Should Merge With Another Church in 2020 Aug 04, 2020

In this season, many churches have been stalled by their plateaued or declining attendance, while other congregations are thriving and making an impact. 94% of all churches in the country are losing ground against the communities they serve. That means that if this trend continues, the message of Jesus will in turn lose ground in […]

Navigating Social Media in the Next Normal with Advice from Facebook’s Nona Jones Jul 30, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. In June we helped cohost The Next Normal Conference with our friends at Leadership Network and Church Communications in order to inspire church leaders and spur collaboration between their teams about where we are all heading next. Today we’re bringing you a re-broadcast […]

Cirque du Soleil, Monster Jam and Disneyland: Marketplace Reopening Lessons for Your Church Jul 28, 2020

There’s no doubt that the reopening phase at your church is going to include some of the most complex decisions you’ll ever make. The switch to fully digital a few months ago will look like an easy decision and simple process in comparison to what will come next. Unlike the last transition, the reopening phase […]

The Extraordinary Calling of Ordinary People to Lead in This Season with Ken Costa Jul 23, 2020

Welcome to this week’s edition of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken Costa, the founder of God At Work and author of four books including his latest, Joseph of Arimathea. He is with us today to talk about listening and leading in this season. Stop and listen. // Right now we’re dealing with a […]

5 Questions About COVID-19 that Your Church Might Still Need to Answer Jul 21, 2020

One of the core takeaways from 2020 so far is that we all have lacked the imagination needed to see over the horizon. Who would’ve thought that this year would bring all the challenges that it has as it relates to coronavirus? Oftentimes people say that no one could have predicted this, that no one […]

Navigating Your Church’s Next Financial Phase with Jim Sheppard Jul 16, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast! Today we are joined by Jim Sheppard, CEO of Generis. Generis is in the business of helping churches and ministry organizations with giving development. They’ve been around for a little over 30 years and are most known for their giving campaigns as well as coaching churches […]

COVID-19 Killed Church Consulting. Long Live Strategic Outsiders! Jul 14, 2020

It’s already been said a million times, but we are living in an unprecedented age. This is true for your church as well as mine. The impacts of COVID-19 and the ensuing economic meltdown that are rippling across the country are having profound impacts on churches everywhere. As someone who has spent a tremendous amount […]

Kids Ministry in the Reopening Phase: Roundtable with Christine Kreisher, Suzi Soares, Heather Celaya & Aanna Smalley Jul 09, 2020

Kids ministry has always cultivated some of the most innovative church leaders. And kids ministry is a growth engine behind the fastest growing churches today. To reopen your church without a kids ministry, I would contest, is not actually reopening the church. Listen in today as I’ve gathered four kids ministry experts from across the […]

Turning Up the Volume on Reaching Unchurched People with Brett Bixby Jul 02, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Brett Bixby join us from Bridgewater Church – a multisite church with campuses in New York and Pennsylvania. Founded in 1807, Bridgewater Church plateaued for many years with most of their growth being transfer growth rather than new salvations. But fifteen years […]

5 Reopening Phase Opportunities for Multisite Churches Jun 30, 2020

The multisite church movement is the most pervasive innovation in the local church in the last 20 years. Yes, even more impactful than the current shift to digital. Across the country, this movement has generated tens of thousands of new connections between local churches and those living in the communities around them. Many multisite churches […]

Leading When You’re Young & Starting During a Crisis with Brent Ingersoll Jun 25, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m really excited to talk with Brent Ingersoll, senior pastor of the multisite Kings Church in Canada. Kings Church was planted in a suburb of St. John, New Brunswick over 30 years ago but then encountered a crisis in 2012 when there was a moral failure within the senior […]

5 Reopening Phase Church Growth Tactics Jun 23, 2020

There are a lot of “doomsday conversations” happening in church leadership circles about how COVID-19 and the ensuing economic crisis have brought on the end of the local church. But I am a glass-three-quarters-full kind of leader. I believe that this is actually an incredible season where you can see your church reach more people […]

Increasing Your Church’s Generosity Culture with Steve Stroope Jun 18, 2020

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re in for a real treat talking with Steve Stroope from Lake Pointe Church in Texas. Steve started as the first pastor at Lake Point Church about forty years ago and has since passed the baton to Josh Howerton. Lake Pointe began with a launch team of […]

5 Fears About Reopening that Church Staff Aren’t Telling Their Leaders Jun 16, 2020

This has been a strange season to be working in the local church. Just a few months ago, we all made the pivot to entirely digital and that felt like the biggest change in our history of leading in the local church. At that point, we thought it would only be a few weeks that […]

Building High Trust Teams in Your Church with Rob Deveney Jun 11, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we are talking to Rob Deveney, executive pastor at Twin Rivers Church. Twin Rivers Church is located in St. Louis, Missouri. It started as a small denominational church, but has grown over the last 90 years into three locations around St. Louis. Rob is with us today to […]

Positive Partnerships for Community Impact with Alan Murdock May 28, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Alan Murdock, who works with the organization Project Connect Nashville. Project Connect Nashville was formed in response to some historic flooding which occurred ten years ago in the Nashville area. But today rather than solely focusing on disaster relief, they primarily build relationships with individuals that are […]

Leading Through Change in Your Church with Larry Wren May 21, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s podcast. We’re talking with Larry Wren, Executive Pastor at Pathway Church in the Witchita, Kansas area. Pathway Church began in 1959 and has become one of the fastest growing churches in the country as they’ve shifted their focus over the last ten years to children’s ministry and reaching […]

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