unSeminary Podcast

**Kids Ministry in a Changing World: Building a Thriving Children’s Ministry with Justyn Smith** Oct 31, 2024

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast! This week we have with us **Justyn Smith**, Executive Kids Pastor at **Cornerstone Church** in Arizona and a story catalyst at Plain Joe.

What does an effective children’s ministry look like? What does kids’ ministry at your church look like when you put yourself in the shoes of a child, or their parents? Tune in as Justyn shares how to transform your kids’ ministry into a thriving ministry that serves the families at your church with vision and intentionality.

**Challenges in ministry.** // Kids’ ministry is an interesting place in today’s church because of growing challenges that church leaders are facing. Navigating societal divisions and strong political opinions, changes in technology that have affected both ministry and parenting, and a lack of clear vision or understanding of what effective kids’ ministry looks like lead to a reactive approach.

**Questions to ask.** // Effective children’s ministry is about much more than simply the curriculum or administrative duties. What does it look like when you put yourself in the shoes of a child at your church. What does it look like when you put yourself in the shoes of a mom or a dad? What could that partnership look like? What questions are parents asking when they drop their child off and they pick their child up? All of these things help shape and inform what an effective children’s ministry should look like at your church.

**Engage with parents.** // Meeting a practical need is a part of what makes an effective kids’ ministry. Strike up a conversation with a visiting parent, asking them to observe and provide honest feedback on their child’s drop-off experience. Reach out to long-time attenders and inquire if kids’ ministry is partnering well with them and meeting the needs of their children. Organize roundtable discussions with parents to gather their thoughts and experiences. Opening yourself up to honest feedback can help shape the direction of the ministry.

**Listen to children.** // You can put yourself in a child’s shoes by literally bringing yourself down to their level. Justyn suggests getting on your knees and walking through your kids’ experience. Observe what you see, hear and feel. Engage with children to understand their preferences and interests. Ask kids what they enjoy and what would draw their friends to the church. This feedback can help shape programming and events that resonate with the target audience. Justyn believes that using “hooks” to attract kids is acceptable as long as there is substance behind those efforts. The ministry should remain focused on effective discipleship while creating engaging and memorable experiences for children.

**Welcome neurodiversity.** // Children’s ministries need to be inclusive of diverse learning abilities and styles. This trend is not going away and churches must be proactive in creating environments that welcome all children. Your church doesn’t need to do everything, but every church can do something. Begin where you can and develop a long-term plan. Engage with families who have children affected by special needs and have open conversations about how to make the ministry more accessible.

**Invest in kids’ ministry.** // Many churches are beginning to recognize the importance of investing in children’s ministry, moving away from the notion that it is a lesser priority. Executive pastors need to conduct an honest assessment of their funding priorities. If children’s ministry is consistently underfunded compared to other ministries, it can lead to unrealistic expectations for performance. Investing appropriately in children’s ministry is essential for its success.

Email Justyn with any questions and find him on social media @pastorjustyn. He also invites listeners to download this interview with Theron Skees from his book, *Kidmin, Trust and Pixie Dust: Unlocking the Magic of Children’s Ministry*.

**NEXT STEPS //** **Is Your Children’s Ministry Thriving?**

Whether you’re a seasoned children’s pastor or just getting started, it’s essential to regularly assess the health of your ministry. Is your volunteer team engaged? Are kids excited to return each week? Are parents feeling connected?

Download our **Children’s Ministry Health Assessment Checklist** and take a deep dive into key areas like volunteer engagement, parent involvement, spiritual growth, and more! This practical tool will help you identify strengths and opportunities for growth, setting your ministry on a path to long-term success.

Get the checklist today and build a thriving, impactful children’s ministry!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey everybody, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited for you to listen in today. You know, I’ve said in other environments that I think some of the most creative people in the local church are kids’ ministry people. They just do incredible things. And today we’ve got not just a kids’ ministry person, but really a person who’s an expert in this whole area.

Rich Birch — We’ve got Justyn Smith with smith with with us. He really carries a couple different hats. One, he’s a story catalyst at Plain Joe. This is Storyland Studio. Plain Joe partners with churches, nonprofits, faith-based organizations, and educational places to create unbelievable ah strategic, digital, and spatial stories that ultimately lift the spirit. We’ve had a number of folks from Storyland on in the past. We just love these guys. They do such a good job. But he is also the Executive Kids Pastor at Cornerstone Church in Chandler, Arizona. So not only is he an expert, he’s also a practitioner. Super glad to have you on the show today, Justyn – welcome.

Justyn Smith — Rich, thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here. I mean that, and I’m looking forward to our conversation for sure.

Rich Birch — Yeah, why don’t you fill in the picture a little bit? Tell me a little bit about ah what the last couple decades of kids’ ministry has looked like and, ah you know, before you joined Storyland, but but talk to us about kind of your background and and all that.

Justyn Smith — Yeah, so for sure. Well, one, I mean, I’ve I’ve been married for over 24 years. I’ve got seven children myself.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Justyn Smith — So all the way from young adults, all the way to ah five years old.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Justyn Smith — So I feel like I have a children’s and student ministry built into my own home, which is which is phenomenal. Ask them, we’ve experimented on them many times, which has been fun. And we’ve been all over the country. So we’ve been ah in places like Las Vegas, Southern California, Minneapolis, Tampa Bay, in Phoenix, Seattle. I’m just all over the U.S. ah ministering in churches in all those places, really been in next-gen ministries.
Justyn Smith — So I’ve been serving the church either in children’s ministry, student ministry, ah both, parenting, all those types of things. So I’ve got but really over 22 years of experience ah working with ah churches from start-up churches to mega churches of 10,000 people. So I feel like I’ve just I’ve just been blessed to have just a a broad ah stroke of just what what church looks like across the board. And ah one thing I’ve learned over the years is no matter if you’re a startup and you have a budget of whatever you made working your other job…

Rich Birch — Yeah, so true.

Justyn Smith — …cause because there is no budget. Or whether you’ve got, ah I mean, $1.5 million dollars to play with a year, ah Ministry is not about is not all all about the money. It’s not about all about the resources. It’s really about your heart, your calling…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Justyn Smith — …ah and ah all all those intangibles. Although let’s admit those tangibles do help a lot, which I’m sure we’ll get into a little bit today. But it really starts with some of those intangibles.

Justyn Smith — And ah kids’ ministry is I think it’s it’s it’s an an interesting place today ah specifically because there’s this tension of ah, one, just our culture. Our culture is is a little bit, if you’ve paid attention to any sort of news lately, I mean, it’s it’s out there, right? I’s ah no matter where you land on ah the political spectrum, societal spectrum or whatnot, there’s definitely um ah some division, there’s definitely some strong opinions. And so that’s made children’s ministry ah maybe a little bit challenging, more challenging than it has been in the past.

Justyn Smith — Technology has has has made it interesting. There’s been a lot of positives with technology, but with it has also brought a lot of ah a lot of negatives. And so how do how do you maneuver through that? That’s impacted kids’ ministry, parenting, and everything across the board. So I’m I’m sure we can dive into a lot of things, but those are just a few of the things that that come to mind ah come up to mind.

Justyn Smith — But ah real quick, it is um it’s thriving today, though. It’s it’s ah It’s a lot of fun.

Rich Birch — So true.

Justyn Smith — Kids’ Ministry was in a position, I think, years ago where ah didn’t feel very valued. Maybe it felt valued, spoken from a lead pastor or leaders from the stage, ah but wasn’t really resourced well, ah didn’t really have high quality leaders. Although the church would say, we want to give them our best, ah rarely would give them their best. We’re starting to see all that change where churches are are really seeing the value. Like no when we say we want to give them our best, we really want to give them our best.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Justyn Smith — So sorry, that’s a long answer to probably your short question, but…
Rich Birch — No, no, no, that’s good. No, no, I love it. I love your perspective. And I kind of want to take advantage of the fact that you do see, you know, wide swath, like you say, the kind of the entire, for lack of a better word, industry and um really want to camp on that and understand, you know, what’s happening across the country. And maybe let’s talk a little bit more about the challenge.

Rich Birch — What would be like, if you think about a common challenge that, you know, kids’ ministry pastors, children’s pastors are encountering today um or faced with, what would what would be a challenge or or two that would kind of bubble to the surface for them?

Justyn Smith — I think something that I like to challenge children’s pastors with is ah really I mean why do you why do you do what you do, at the end of the day? Like hat does an effective children’s ministry look like? I think when you talk to maybe some children’s pastors of some well-established, ah we’ll call them, you know, maybe larger churches, ah they seem to have, you know, um I don’t want to say they’re ducks in a row, but they definitely seem to have to have an order and an expectation that’s different from 95% of the churches out there.

Justyn Smith — Because because most churches in America, they’re they’re they’re rather small and um and I think some churches out there, it’s, you know, they’re they’re desperate looking for someone to lead ah children’s ministries. So what it looks like is a pastor walking through the lobby and seeing maybe a…

Rich Birch — Hey, you!

Justyn Smith — Yeah, really. It’s like, Hey, you’re breathing. Hey, you’ve got kids. And they assume, Hey, you’re not doing anything. And Hey, would you do this? And some people that just the goodness of their heart, maybe an obligation or whatnot, they’re like, yeah, we’ll give it a try. And, um, two years later, they find themselves still in it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — But with that comes, I mean, they they didn’t really go into it with vision. They didn’t really go into it with expectations or or or or ah education or or any of that kind of stuff. They went in there to really kind of fill a need. And I think that’s that’s a lot of churches that are out there. And I’m not saying that’s not a ah bad place to start, but because of that, some people don’t know, like, where do I go from there? And so what happens is like, what does an effective children’s ministry look like?

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — They don’t really know because all they’re trying to do is they’re trying to hang on from week to week. they They know that, hey, we’ve got to prepare for Sunday. And really in a lot of churches, then we got to prepare for Wednesday. And really every three days or so you’re you’re preparing um a lesson, and and and trying to find volunteers, and ah do special events outside of that, and maybe a child care moment. And there’s so much going on that what is effective ministry looks like? And so I I like to start there is is to kind of if we can slow people down, ah take take a few days, and and let let’s talk about what what it looks like.

Justyn Smith — It’s not just about the curriculum. It’s not just about administrative duties. It’s not just about all all those things. Those things are important. But what does it look like when you put yourself in the shoes of ah a kid? What would it look like if you put yourself in the shoes of of a mom and dad and what that partnership could look like? Or what it looks like when ah they drop their child off and they pick their child up? And and have you asked yourself the questions, you know, what are mom and dad asking them when when they get picked up? All these all these little things I think would help shape and inform what an effective children’s ministry could and should look like.

Justyn Smith — And and I think that obviously I something that’s great about—sorry—the the children’s ministry community is I think they’re very ah collaborative. And um I don’t want to and want to pick on other ministries in the church, but I think there’s some who are maybe a little more competitive.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Justyn Smith — In in this space, I would say there’s there’s a there’s ah massive willingness to collaborate.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — And you’d be shocked if you reached out to people and just said, hey, could I have some time?

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — And and they’ll give you your time, and and help you and not not charge you or or make you do something crazy. So I encourage people, you know reach out to other ah children’s ministries that you feel like are doing a a good and effective job. But put yourself in the shoes of of parents. I mean, have the conversation with your pastor on on their expectations, and and and and figure out, like especially putting yourself in the shoes of parents. Because they don’t sometimes know um the questions to even ask or or what to do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — And so so when you do that, I think that you can you can meet a real practical need, ah which is a part of what makes an effective kids ministry, meeting a real practical need…

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — …not just the spiritual growth, which also is, you know, huge priority.

Rich Birch — Yeah, incredibly important. But I, yeah, I totally agree on the, you know, people are, you’d be amazed how many people will answer your questions or be willing to talk. That’s actually really the core of what started even our podcast.

Justyn Smith — It’s awesome.

Rich Birch — Like, you know, you’d be amazed. People people are willing to to help each other, which is amazing. But ah you you talked about, I’d love to kind of zero in on one thing you talked about. You talked about the fact that um you’ve got to put yourself in the shoes of kids and adults, parents, that that are dropping their kids off. Give us a few ways that we could do that. I think that’s a good insight. How do we, because we can always see our thing just from our perspective. We see what we do from our vantage point, um which is one vantage point, but it’s not it’s not obviously the entire picture.

Justyn Smith — Yeah, so, I mean, a couple of really practical things ah is, one, is you can literally ask a parent—I’ve done this a couple times, and you’ve got to be pretty confident, I think, in ah maybe a visitor or whatnot. I’ve literally done this with with with a visitor. I’ve struck up a conversation in the lobby, and I was like, I literally said, hey, I know this is going to sound really strange, but as you drop your child off and you go through our kids’ ministry, would you just take note of what that experience is like for you?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Justyn Smith — Uh, I, really I just, and I really, I had no background with them. I had no, I didn’t know what they would say. I didn’t even know if they were saved, to be quite honest. And, but I just, I just felt like I wanted to do that. And one, because I knew I was going to get a very real, raw ah answers, and I wasn’t going to get someone who’s kind of hopped from church to church, or who grew up in the church and gave me some churchiness and and be you know a little too kind. I wanted something real and and honest, and they did that.

Justyn Smith — But if that’s too far out there for you, I think it’s just literally just just ask ask a parent who attends your church, “How is the experience like ah for you?” And and you know maybe just do like a little roundtable. Bring you know four or five you know parents, ah take them out for coffee or just just come into one of your kid’s spaces and and just talk for 60 minutes. Maybe there’s ah maybe there is someone who’s who’s somewhat new to the church. you know maybe they’ve been coming for six months. That’s enough time for them to remember their experience um there is especially their first time experience, what it’s like.

Justyn Smith — But then and then don’t forget about the parents who have been attending for a long time. They have a lot of they have a lot to say. And they probably [inaudible] the backbone of your church and I think sometimes we might forget about them. Because they start to blend into to the background.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Justyn Smith — Bring them in. Hey, you’ve been attending here for 5 years, 10 years or or whatever. ah Do you feel like we really partner with you? Do you feel like we are meeting the needs…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Justyn Smith — …of of of your children? I mean, just ask the questions. It puts you in a vulnerable in a vulnerable spot, but that’s okay. We’re leaders. And leaders need to put ourselves in in that spot and be humble enough to say, hey, we’re missing the mark here and we want to do better.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Justyn Smith — Or we ah or we’re we’re doing a great job and we just want to keep building upon it and and and and doing better. And then I think when you put yourself in the in in a kids’ shoes, you can literally do this. You can literally get on your knees and you can walk through your kids experience and what do they see, what do they feel, what do they i mean what is that like for them literally, physically on that level?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Justyn Smith — And then two, ask ask the kids. You know I think it’s sometimes funny, we’re always racking our brains around, man, what would be a fun thing to do for kids? What would be ah ah what would they want to do? You literally talk to them every single week…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.
Justyn Smith — …um sometimes twice a week. And so i would I would take time and say, hey, what do you guys think would be fun? What would be what what would be something that we could do that would draw your your friends to our church? I’m not against hooks at all, as long as there’s substance behind the hook. If it’s only hook and facade, we’re not being effective. But if you’re using that hook to get people into your church, to expose them to effective discipleship, I think that’s a win.

Justyn Smith — And so um ask them. They they they know and they’ll come up with some maybe absurd things, but they’re going to come up with the answers because it’s the things they like to do. And then it’s our job as leaders, okay, how can we take what what they want to do and and and and make that work and and brainstorm that with creative people in your church. And so, yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. It’s funny you say on the oh yeah to get on your knees, we did a training thing a while ago, probably a month ago, and they were handing out like, it was like a guest services thing in our church. And so we had like all these random different kind of personas that we were supposed to play. And so I was with someone, was paired with someone, and that was exactly what it was supposed to be. It was like a parent and child. And they were trying to check their kid in. And it was like a slightly different check-in situation.

Justyn Smith — Sure.

Rich Birch — And so I got on my knees and walked through ah you know with the with the person that was supposed to be my parent. And it was it was fun. And a part of what you know my takeaway from it was like, yeah, man, the kids are standing there a long time…

Justyn Smith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …waiting for their parents to do some sort of administrative thing. And I said the exact same thing. I’m like can we put something fun here like what can we do something, you know give them something or have I don’t know candy or something…

Justyn Smith — That’s brilliant. Yeah.

Rich Birch — …in this environment um that I wouldn’t have thought of if I wasn’t and obviously my knees were hurting too. So I was like, oh man. But yeah, I love that. Put put them in their in your shoes. Ask lots of questions. Participate in the experience. that’s ah you know That’s so great.

Rich Birch — Can you think of a time from your leadership where your perspective has been changed by maybe talking to kids or talking to parents, engaging, um that it’s actually changed a bit of what you’ve done?

Justyn Smith — Yeah, I would I would say, I mean, to your point of, of you know, you put you were on your knees and and and walking through that. We’ve done that exercise, and and we found out that, yeah, we wanted to put something in the kid’s hands. And so we would have a welcome, like a little welcome bag ah with, you know, had our had our logo on it and had a couple things in it. So had ah had a first time button, had a little thing they could fidget with. And so literally as mom and dad are are completing you know, the the short form for check-in, they were able to ah fidget with some things.

Justyn Smith — But not only that, but we also tried to make it personal where we have a someone there who’s giving the kids attention. And so mom and dad can focus on, you know, typing the stuff in, writing the stuff in, however, however you would do that. And we’d have someone asking kids questions, hey, what school what school to go to? Hey, what’s your favorite part of, you know, and just um and just really kind of engaging them. And then what that did for mom and dad, it kind of gave them a sense of, oh, man, these people really do care…

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — …about our children. They’re giving them attention and really kind of on on their level. And so I i think it it it just built some trust in right away, which I think is really important, especially if you’re a first-time guest. You’re leaving your kids. I don’t know this organization. I don’t know this church.

Rich Birch — Right. Who are these people?

Justyn Smith — Are you guys a cult? Are you like what are you?

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Justyn Smith — And I’m just giving you my kids. And so it’s important that trust right off the bat. So that helped with that. And I think like yeah with a with mom and dad, um, some of the things that we’ve we’ve changed is, you know, we found out that, you know, handouts on a weekly basis, they don’t like those.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — And some of the churches, I’ve been in some churches and they do value those. But I’ve been in some, they’re like these end up… we don’t do anything with them. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, you know, we’re spending so much time and thought and effort, uh…

Rich Birch — Right. Producing this stuff. Yep.

Justyn Smith — …producing this stuff and and you’re not using them. But we do it because, because I think it’s effective. Because it’s what I like to do. And I’m like and like, I’m not here for me. I’m here to serve, to serve Jesus. I’m here to serve you. And, um, if I’m not being effective, if I’m wasting these resources, that’s ridiculous.

Justyn Smith — So then we went to, um you know ah you know, we did like a seven week series, so we just produced something that we made available for at the beginning of the series. And and that’s it.

Rich Birch — Here it is. Right. Right.

Justyn Smith — And and that kind of went with it. And and parents appreciate that. They’re like, oh, hey, it felt bite-sized enough where where they could get into it.

Justyn Smith — And then we just moved some stuff to social media. So if some people still wanted a a weekly connection or questions, prompts, et cetera, they could still get that on a weekly basis. But in a not not wasting resources and things like that.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes, exactly. When all the time we spent printing all that stuff, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense for sure.

Rich Birch — So let’s let’s roll out a scenario. Let’s say I’m an executive pastor, church of 1,500 people, and you know I I really like our kids’ people. They’re good folks. But like I just have a sense that we’re not you know keeping up. That it’s like It feels like we’re like it’s like the same as it was 10 years ago. Like obviously, there’s new kids, new leaders, all that, but but it just feels like maybe we’re not um you know learning, growing. What advice would you give to me as an executive pastor as I’m working with my team to try to help them um stay current. Because I’m not an expert in it. It’s not my this isn’t my area.

Justyn Smith — Right.

Rich Birch — But I it’s it’s a hunch. So what should I be thinking about? How do I explore that kind of hunch? What what what kind of advice could I be, you know, could I give to the kids, ministry people in my church?

Justyn Smith — Yeah, I mean, I think I think the first thing I mean the first thing I would do is I would be reflective as an executive pastor. So is this a is this a specific ministry challenge that you’re having, or is it an overall church challenge that you’re having?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Justyn Smith — So I think it’s easy sometimes for us to sit in a chair and say, oh, hey, this could be better.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Justyn Smith — But then if I’m being really if I’m being honest and reflective of myself, hey, our whole church is down 20%. Or our whole church is struggling with this this this cultural thing. It’s not just the kids’ ministry. It seems like an easy target, or the student minister, or fill in the blank. It seems like an easy target. So I would i would encourage them, first, just be reflective and and make sure you’re really asking the right question. Ifif you do come to the conclusion that, hey, yeah, this children’s ministry is the lowest um hole in the bucket and and and that that’s where we’re leaking. Then, yeah, ask the tough questions.

Justyn Smith — And I think what some of those questions are is, for you for an executive pastor, one, do we have do we have the right leader ah in place? And um again, just just you know how did we get this person? What’s what’s the backstory? Some executive pastors didn’t hire this person. So I mean, it’s it’s important to understand who who this person is.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — Where where are you going as a church? You know, I’ve been a part of some churches who, it’s like, there’s there’s there was nothing necessarily wrong with the children’s pastor, but the but the church made a a a dramatic shift in in their strategy and how they approach ministry in their community and reaching out. And they found out this children’s pastor who wasn’t doing a ah bad job, just didn’t have the gift mix and the capabilities to make this shift. And so um that’s a hard that’s a hard conversation um to to have, but but it’s one that’s necessary if you want, obviously, your children’s ministry or whatever to to to to get on board and go the direction you’re having.

Justyn Smith — And so it could be a shift and in in leadership. If it’s someone you’re like, no, I think i think this person has it. They’ve got they’ve got the capability, they got the capability, they’ve the gifting, all that type of stuff, then um how are you resourcing this person? I mean, there’s there’s great conferences out there that you could send them to. there’s ah roundtables. I mean think I would say I as an executive ah as an executive pastor, all those things that you might be a part of, why would you not want your staff to also be a part of?

Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.

Justyn Smith — And so um help them find a community and your kids pastor again um could have just been thrown in there, may not have the experience. Or or when ah and and and surround them, find a community of kids pastors who um who are are are big on leadership or big on spiritual disciplines and discipleship. I mean, what is it that you want for your church and and help them find that church, those people, and get them, expose them to what you are are wanting, if they don’t have that experience.

Justyn Smith — Because I found that many kids’ pastors, they’re open. They just they don’t know. They feel under they just feel under-resourced, undervalued.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Justyn Smith — And I think sometimes when you start to encourage, you start to show value. And some of that is is the resources you give them. It’s the um It’s the budget you give or don’t give them. All those things communicate something to them. And so ah you know that’s why I said earlier, you know, it’s one thing to say, hey, we value you. We we value Kids’ Ministry, but then they have the lowest budget ah line, you know, they have the lowest budget in the church.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Justyn Smith — Or or the student ministry, they’ve got you know they’ve got a full-time student pastor there, but we’ve got this part-time stay-at-home spouse that is running the Kids’ Ministry. But yet our expectation is that the Kids’ Ministry is at this level.

Justyn Smith — And so it’s like, I think sometimes, and that’s where you got to take an internal and an internal inventory of of how, of your expectations and and what you’re doing in kids ministry. But but all those types of things. But I think it’s i think it’s mainly like what what helped my growth the most was me being exposed to people who um who our church wanted to emulate, who I wanted to emulate. And that just radically changed and put me on on the right trajectory. So I think that that’s a big deal.

Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, that’s good. So I want to come back to the under-resourced question in a minute. So I’m just putting a little a little pin in that. But but kind of related to this whole area, I think one of the things that’s changed a lot in the last, maybe even the last 10 years, for sure in the last 20, 25, is we’re trying to create, particularly kids ministries that really are can host a series of kids from a wide variety with a variety of learning um abilities, learning styles, neurodiversity, all that stuff. Talk to me about that both from like the volunteer team side and from you know put your Plain Joe hat on and and think about it from that perspective. What should what are some of the kind of key questions we should be thinking about when we think about that issue? Because this seems like one of those big changes over the last 10, 15 years.

Justyn Smith — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me just, yeah, let’s be honest. It’s it’s not going away.

Rich Birch — No.

Justyn Smith — it’s it’s it’s only It’s only expediting. And I find that you’ve got a couple churches you’ve got churches that are um they’re pretty resistant. They’re like, this is just how we do ministry. And to be honest, I’m I’m a little I’m I’m a little ah I’ll just use the word disappointed with churches who are just unwilling to um entertain the idea that that they could make some changes ah to minister, to maybe not the whole spectrum that’s out there, but but to to to some, to to what you can do.

Justyn Smith — And so I have ah I have a lot of ah respect and high regard for churches who um who are also honest with themselves. They’re like, hey, we know this is a challenge, um but ah we can’t do it all, but this is what we can do right now.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — But then to maybe have a long-term plan of like, hey, how can we get there?

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — Because again, it’s it’s not it’s not going away. And some churches are just like, we’re just not going to do that. I’m just like, it’s just kind of a bummer because I feel like there’s a whole, and I feel like maybe you mentioned it, so you you might feel it as well, is there’s just a whole community out there that is just looking for a faith community…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Justyn Smith — …um that will invite them in. And I think a lot of times we’re either intentionally or unintentionally unwelcoming them. And I think it’s important that that we strive to do what we but we can do. But then I hope that our churches would would get together and and and create a plan to to invite them in in the long term. So maybe, hey, ah this year we can do… you know we can you know handle this level, but maybe you know two or three years we can increase that. And I think those are positive strides.

Justyn Smith — And then there’s some churches who kind of go all in and and they’re just doing a fabulous job at reaching that community. My Plain Joe had ah had on is just just being mindful of of people who um ah who are not, I guess what people say would call typical typical kids. And so when you’re designing, when you’re creating a space, when you’re creating environments, make sure that they’re ah inclusive of of all all kids of of of their abilities. I think it’s it’s it’s not as challenging as it seems to be. It’s as easy as this: it’s as easy as connecting with a family who has a child who who who’s going through that and having a conversation with them. Hey, how can we make our ministry more ah more friendly, more welcoming an environment for your child?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s so good. I yeah I agree. Like we don’t want to get be caught asleep on this one. I think particularly as churches grow…

Justyn Smith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …it it we end up in a really responsive, you know, way with this. It’s like we’re reactive because it’s like there’s families that are showing up and they are like, OK, you basically deal with my kid. And then we’re caught like, oh, I don’t know what to do. This is an area where we really should be thinking ahead…

Justyn Smith — Right.

Rich Birch — …getting ahead of the curve, trying to figure out, you know, there’s some studies that show somewhere between I think it’s I think it was 17 to 20% of kids in America are neurodivergent. So that’s like…

Justyn Smith — Yeah. Yeah. they’re They’re saying, yeah, they’re saying, yeah, it’s it’s more than one in 10 kids are doing with something.

Rich Birch — …one in five. Yeah. Yeah.

Justyn Smith — And then just real quick too. And I feel like there’s a place I can just kind of be blunt ah with of my assessments is that I think sometimes we don’t do it because it takes work. Um, and and, and it, I’m, I’m just being real. It’s a, it takes a lot of work.

Rich Birch — That’s true.

Justyn Smith — It gets us out of our comfort zone and we don’t know.
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Justyn Smith — And so, and so let’s just, let’s just call it what it is.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. It’s like a new skill. We got to learn, right? We got to lean in.

Justyn Smith — And as a leader, go out there and learn it, go out there, do the research, talk to the people and do the work to meet that need. So there you go.

Rich Birch — Okay, so sticking with the being blunt theme. Let’s go back to the underfunded question. So you got a bunch of executive pastor people that are listening in. And I know that they, when they hear that, and that like oh our area is underfunded, I know they’re like, yeah, like everybody’s. Like they’re trying to balance the budget, they’re like give me a break, like you know, it’s it’s all underfunded. But what what is the thing that you would say or that you wish you could say on behalf of kids’ ministry people all across the country if you had an earnest executive pastor that was sitting down and saying, Hey, like, help me understand. Are we underfunded? Are we? I know everybody wants more money. You know, they’re not going to go to their people and, you know, if you go to, I’ve never had a staff member say, you know what, I need less staff and I less need less resources.

Justyn Smith — Right.

Rich Birch — They’ve never said that. So um but let’s say it’s like an earnest person. They’re like, really, hey, ah help me understand, Justyn. You’re an expert in this area. What does what kind of funding percentage wise? Is there a way for me to think about that that really would be an appropriate level of funding for, you know, our church

Justyn Smith — Yeah, I mean, and I think it’s like really two conversations. One, it’s to the kid’s pastor. Like don’t don’t take on a victim mentality.

Rich Birch — Right. No, that’s good.

Justyn Smith — Like like I would I would I don’t know if the executive pastor says that, it probably comes off differently. If I said that to peer, a children’s pastor, they’d take it better because I’ve been in that like the victim mentality, woe is me.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Justyn Smith — Like don’t do that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Justyn Smith — You said yes to this, and and you know what you’re getting into.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — And so ah but but yeah, the the underfunded thing, I think it’s, again, it’s just having an honest assessment. So as you look at the ministries, how are they being funded? And if you have like, I’ve gotten some churches where student ministry is like, you know, 50, 60% more than kids ministry. But yet there’s this there’s this expectation that kids’ ministry is doing, you know, XYZ. And I’m like, dude… and it’s not necessarily about like, like the the like you get more, I get more. I I don’t like that per se.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — It’s just that um oftentimes you’re getting you’re getting what you’re paying for. And so if you’re paying um if you’re paying someone like, ah a low yeah, if they have a low budget, if you if they have low salary, I just often say, you get what you’re paid for.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Justyn Smith — And so I have that honest assessment. It’s hard to say; every church is different. I just say, man, what what do you value?

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — If you like you value kids, Oh, hey, your your budget’s $25,000 for ministry. Man, and and and you can make some changes to to do whatever. There’s some churches here, they’re trying to be they’re trying to minister to everyone and everything. And there’s it’s it’s a hard conversation to have, but um I get the I get the idea that, hey, woe is me, everyone wants more money. I’m I’m a very practical, I feel like very realistic, but I think that most executive pastors, if you really just reflected um on your stuff, I think I think you could figure out like if you’re underfunding it or not

Rich Birch — Sure.

Justyn Smith — it’s It’s challenging without knowing what the vision is, the values are…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Justyn Smith — …it could be any number of things. So I know I’m not really answering the question, but.

Rich Birch — Well, no, no, that’s fine. That’s good. I get it. I understand that your, you know, yeah people could reach out and ask you if they got specifics, you know, I’m sure you’d be happy to help.

Justyn Smith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But it’s it because I think that’s a real issue. I do think, um you know, from my seat over the years, we’ve, you know, I’ve been such a champion for kids ministry specifically. I think it’s strategically important for the church. It’s the gospel from a big picture point of view. The gospel is one generation away from being extinct. We’ve got to invest in that. um but it But then just also from a like, I would say like a pragmatic church growth point of view, like prevailing churches invest heavily in kids ministry.

Justyn Smith — Yes.

Rich Birch — Like, you know, if you if you were to go visit really in kind of every stream of you know, Christian church, if you were to find the churches that that that stream considers prevailing, one of the common things that you’ll see in all of those, kind of regardless of the stream, is when you walk around their kids’ ministry or talk to their kids’ ministry people, they’re very well led…

Justyn Smith — Right.

Rich Birch — …they’re well-funded, there’s like energy coming off that. There’s like, wow, there’s lots of good stuff going on there. And so it’s highly unlikely that your church would become prevailing without ah without a killer kids’ ministry, I think, personally.

Justyn Smith — Correct. Rich, I love you, man. That’s awesome. Yes, yes, yes.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I’ll give you a hug across the across Zoom.

Justyn Smith — I know, right?

Rich Birch — Well, let’s you know you’ve given us a chapter of ah your book. It’s its so I want to hear a little bit about this. So first of all, I’m a Disney guy. I love Disney. So the fact that it’s just a former ah Disney Imagineer you’re talking about. But tell me about this chapter and then tell me about your book.

Justyn Smith — Yeah, so the book, *Kidmin, Trust and Pixie Dust*. I’m a big Disney guy. And so in the Children’s Ministry world, I’ve I’ve got a few resources written on on Disney and and do a lot of that. And I know it gets it’s it’s like it goes back and forth with how people are receptive to it because Disney is always in the headlines…

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — …for whatever. But I like to if I like to focus a lot on like classic Disney, Walt Disney the person, and just the thing that he built. I think there’s no doubt that ah Walt Disney built something I’m gonna use the word magical, even though some people are allergic to that word in the church, ah but it but it really is. It’s like he he he created something that was ah brought a lot of value to families and to communities and has really was a pioneer in shaping a ah yeah entertainment today.

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Justyn Smith — I mean, we do what we do today in large part because of Walt Disney. And so um I think there’s a lot of things that we can take from Walt Disney and even the Disney company today and apply that to Kids’ Ministry and take the best from it. I’m not saying everything they do is great.

Rich Birch — Right.

Justyn Smith — Everything they do is is is replicable or or or that. But there is still a lot of ah good things that we can learn from that apply. And so this book does that. It’s *Kidmin, Trust and Pixie Dust.* It takes some practical ah leadership lessons and creative lessons that Walt Disney and um and and that the Disney ah teams over the years have put into place and how does that what does that look like in a kids’ ministry environment?

Justyn Smith — And so and obviously, was like with my Plain Joe hat, I’m really big on environments and creating memorable experiences. I think those are super important. I think our organization does a phenomenal job at storytelling and helping churches tell their story, ah which includes, um you know, children’s ministry spaces and environments, you know, whether you’ve got 50 grand or 5 million, ah you know, we can make come to life.

Justyn Smith — And this chapter specifically talks with a ex-Disney Imagineer, Theron Skees. And ah he talks about his story and just all that he he created and led throughout the years. And he’s a person of faith, ah which is amazing. Some people think, you know, there’s no way there’s Christians there, but there is um a faith community within the Disney Company. And Theron was one of them for many years. And his stories and the way he is so passionate about um about just ah the the local church and and creativity and telling the story is is um it’s it’s yeah it’s it’s it’s exciting and fun. And so I so I wanted to include this this chapter because I wanted it to inspire people to um to put their ah best into kids’ ministry. And I feel like i feel like this is a chapter that that can do that. And I hope it i hope it’s helpful for people.

Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Well, I would encourage friends, listen, I back talking back to that executive pastor that we were talking about earlier, go click the link, read this chapter. And then maybe what you could do, a practical next step is why don’t you buy copies of of this book um and read it with your kids’ ministry people. Say like, hey, I you know I heard this interview. What if we spent the next couple months we read through this and then we just talked about it, all got got the copies. It’s on my budget, not yours. Don’t worry about it. And would love to talk a little bit about you know what can we do to kind of increase the, try to get a a learning environment going with with your kids’ ministry people? I think that would be a really practical. I know when I saw this book I thought man, this would be a great book to kind of um use in that kind of training environment. I think it could be a really cool tool Um, yeah, Mel McGowan, uh, from Storyland, he, he knows, uh, the path to my heart.

Justyn Smith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — He once hosted me at Club 33 there at Disneyland. So it was like, I feel like I’m forever indebted to Mel. So, um, which is, uh, you know, if you don’t know what that is, don’t worry about it friends, but, um, yeah, I appreciate the, uh, appreciate Disney for sure.

Rich Birch — So, well, this has been great. What a great conversation today. Is there anything else that you want to cover just as we wrap up today?

Justyn Smith — I mean, on a search, I know we’ve kind of gone over time a little bit and we talked a lot ah a lot, but I mean, I just, you know, I guess I would say, you know, I never thought that, you know, that I would have to, in kids’ ministry, be a salesman or a talent a talent seeker. And it’s just it just goes with…

Rich Birch — That’s so true.

Justyn Smith — …with with with ministry and and we need people to do ministry. And so that’s something that I learned along the way. And I’m just appreciative of you. I’m I’m thankful for unSeminary. I’m thankful for your ministry and what you’re doing. ah You’re helping a lot of people and it was definitely an honor to to be part of this.

Rich Birch — Well, thanks so much. If people want to get in touch with you or, you know, track with, uh, you know, with Plain Joe or any of that stuff, where do we want to send them online?

Justyn Smith — Yeah, I mean I mean, you can go to plainjoestudios.com. You can find me on any social media. I’m usually the you know hashtag or ah yeah ah Pastor Justyn is usually my my name on ah on everything. It’s Justyn with a Y, so J-U-S-T-Y-N. ah Pastor Justyn, so you can follow me on any of the social medias. ah Find me on ah on a yeah the the Plain Joe or Storyland website. And I would love to connect with you, have conversations, and help in any way that I can.

Rich Birch — Love it. Thanks so much for being here, sir. I really appreciate your time today.

Justyn Smith — Thanks, Rich.

How to Make Your Church Irresistible: Proven Strategies for Creating an Invite Culture Oct 30, 2024

In this Deep Dive episode of the unSeminary Podcast, the hosts explore how to make your church irresistible by discussing Rich Birch’s book, Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture: Strategies for Church Growth That Work Today. The conversation unpacks Birch’s insights on how churches can cultivate an environment where members naturally want to invite others into the community. This episode centers on five practical “gears” that drive a thriving invite culture:

Shareable Weekend Teaching: The hosts discuss how impactful, relevant sermons can become topics of conversation that members feel compelled to share with others. Birch’s advice is to make messages feel like “painkillers” that address immediate needs rather than “vitamins” with general advice.
Eventful Big Days: By making the most of holidays and major events like Christmas and Easter, churches can create engaging, buzz-worthy experiences. The hosts share examples of churches that take an innovative approach to draw in those who might not usually attend, transforming these days into memorable outreach opportunities.
Captivating Online Conversations: More than just live streaming, Birch emphasizes creating engaging, shareable online content that feels authentic and connects with people digitally. The hosts explore ways churches can boost their online presence to build digital community and increase shareability.
Magnetic Community Service: The best community service is both meaningful and fun, creating a welcoming space for all. Birch recommends organizing service activities that not only help others but also foster a sense of connection among participants, making it easy for members to invite friends to join.
Appealing Volunteer Service: By creating an inviting, easy-to-join volunteer experience, churches can help members feel invested from the start. The hosts discuss how Birch’s insights show that a strong volunteer culture can lead to greater community involvement and natural growth.

Throughout the episode, the hosts emphasize Birch’s approach to building an invite culture step-by-step, celebrating small wins and focusing on intentional growth. For church leaders looking to make their church a place people can’t resist inviting others to, this episode is packed with actionable insights and examples.

Disclaimer:
This episode was generated with the help of NotebookLM, an AI tool from Google designed to enhance content creation by analyzing documents and providing in-depth insights. NotebookLM assists in generating summaries, exploring themes, and crafting key points from the material provided. We used it in this episode to bring you an engaging and thorough exploration of Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture by Rich Birch.

We’re always looking to improve, and your feedback is invaluable to us! If you have any thoughts on the episode or on how we’re using NotebookLM, please reach out—we’d love to hear from you.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 — All right, let’s jump into this whole idea of invite culture. I’m sure it’s something you’re already thinking about…

Speaker 2 — Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 — …especially as church leaders, you know trying to figure out how to reach more people and build a thriving community. We wanted to take a deep dive into Rich Birch’s Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture. He’s got some great insights on how to create that kind of environment.

Speaker 2 — It’s interesting because he really focuses on it’s not some like magic solution, right? He breaks down this concept of an invite culture into five key areas that churches can focus on.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — And kind of gears working together to propel the church forward.

Speaker 1 — I like that. Like a well-oiled machine.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — So what are these gears? What’s what’s the first one?

Speaker 2 — The first one is shareable weekend teaching.

Speaker 1 — Okay, so that’s really about making your sermons and teaching so compelling…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …that people want to share them.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. So it’s so good, they can’t help but talk about it.

Speaker 1 — But how do you actually do that? How do you make a sermon something people want to talk about on Monday morning, you know at work or with their friends?

Speaker 2 — Well, he uses this great analogy of painkillers not vitamins.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — And he argues that your teaching needs to address real problems people are facing.

Speaker 1 — Felt needs.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, not just offered general spiritual advice.

Speaker 1 — So it’s like when you have a splitting headache, you’re not reaching for, you know a multivitamin. You’re looking for that that Advil that Tylenol.

Speaker 2 — You want that quick fix.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, something that’s gonna address that problem right now.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, people are drawn to things that offer solutions to their immediate problem

Speaker 1 — So, how do you how do you as a church leader even figure out what those what those problems or what those headaches are?

Speaker 2 — Well, he suggests looking at things like Amazon bestseller lists.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — And you know, they can actually give you a window into what are people thinking about, what keeps them up at night?

Speaker 1 — That’s so interesting. So it’s like market research but for but for the soul, it’s like what are people really struggling with at their core?

Speaker 2 — Yeah, and then how can you craft your teaching to address those needs directly?

Speaker 1 — I like that.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — And and you know, it’s not just what’s being said, right? It’s also who’s saying it.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — Birch stresses that you know leaders need to embody the message they’re preaching.

Speaker 2 — Authenticity is key.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, are you living out what you’re asking others to do

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — You know, there’s that whole, you know practice what you preach kind of idea.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — He gives the example of Crossroads Church and how they’re known for their creative and really visually engaging sermons. It’s not just you know, someone’s standing behind a podium.

Speaker 2 — Right. It’s an experience.

Speaker 1 — It’s an experience. You want people to leave right feeling inspired feeling energized…

Speaker 2 — And wanting to share.

Speaker 1 — …and wanting to share what they’ve experienced. Okay, so we’ve got shareable weekend teaching. That’s gear number one. What’s the next gear in this invite culture machine?

Speaker 2 — Gear number two is eventful big days.

Speaker 1 — Okay, so we’re talking about like Christmas, Easter – those big holidays?

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — Those marker points in the year.

Speaker 2 — Yes, times when people are already thinking about you know, faith tradition.

Speaker 1 — And he’s arguing that churches should really lean into those moments.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely. Go beyond the expected. Don’t just you know have your regular service

Speaker 1 — Right.

Speaker 2 — He actually shares a story about Liquid Church in New Jersey.

Speaker 1 — Oh, I’ve heard of them.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, they did this incredible Star Wars themed Christmas…

Speaker 1 — Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 — …a couple years ago, complete with dancing stormtroopers.

Speaker 1 — Wait, seriously like stormtroopers in the church?

Speaker 2 — I mean they had Chewbacca in the manger scene, Darth Santa.

Speaker 1 — Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 — It was a huge hit.

Speaker 1 — Okay, I can see that generating some buzz – that’s thinking outside the box.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, and they actually drew people in who might never have stepped foot in a church otherwise.

Speaker 1 — So you’re meeting people where they are and and using something that they’re familiar with and comfortable with…

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — …to kind of draw them in.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — That’s really cool.

Speaker 2 — And then there was Hope City Church. They dropped 10,000 easter eggs from a helicopter.

Speaker 1 — A helicopter? Okay, that’s that’s next level.

Speaker 2 — It’s memorable.

Speaker 1 — It’s definitely memorable.

Speaker 2 — Right. It’s exciting. And it’s something people would naturally want to invite their friends to.

Speaker 1 — Right. It’s it’s something people would talk about. I can imagine people being like hey, you’ve got to come to our church. We’re dropping easter eggs from a helicopter this year.

Speaker 2 — Exactly

Speaker 1 — And they’re not even thinking about it as like, oh I’m inviting you to church. They’re thinking about it as I’m inviting you to this awesome event.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. It’s about creating an experience that’s both meaningful and fun and something that gets people talking and wanting to share it with others.

Speaker 1 — So that’s shareable weekend teaching and eventful big days. What’s the third gear in this invite culture thing?

Speaker 2 — The third gear is captivating online conversations.

Speaker 1 — Okay, so that’s that’s really relevant these days.

Speaker 2 — Very relevant.

Speaker 1 — As we think about how how present everyone is online and how much interaction we have in that digital space.

Speaker 2 — And he really emphasizes that it’s not just about live streaming your services.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — It’s really about creating genuine connections online and fostering a sense of community in that digital space.

Speaker 1 — So how do you do that? How do you translate invite culture into the online space?

Speaker 2 — Well, he actually points to groups like IF:Gathering as a great example. They really nail that native to the internet feel.

Speaker 1 — So their content It just feels it feels natural right in that digital space. It’s not like you’re trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — It’s just it just works.

Speaker 2 — Yeah. Think you know short shareable videos, interactive discussions, visually appealing aesthetic.

Speaker 1 — So it’s it’s designed for how people actually consume content online.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — And it feels authentic and relatable.

Speaker 2 — He also mentioned some Barna research that shows people are willing to invite friends online if the experience is engaging.

Speaker 1 — So it’s not just about reaching people online.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — But it’s also about equipping…

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — …your current congregation to feel comfortable inviting others into that space.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — Okay, that makes sense like creating that digital welcome map. Okay. So gear number four -magnetic community service.

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — I think this one is really at the heart of what it means to be a church, right?

Speaker 2 — Absolutely. It’s about putting your faith into action. And serving those in need. And he makes this crucial point, it needs to be both meaningful, and fun.

Speaker 1 — It can’t just be like, you know drudgery and and you know work. People need to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — Want to be a part of it.

Speaker 2 — He talks about churches organizing service sprints, you know providing t-shirts, having great music, creating volunteer care teams. So you’re you’re making it an event.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — An experience that people want to be a part of

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — He also shares a powerful story about His church rallying after Super Storm Sandy.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — And it wasn’t just about helping people clean up. It was about creating community.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — It was about sharing meals.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — And it was about embodying the church’s values in a tangible way.

Speaker 2 — And it’s not just about doing good for the sake of doing good.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — It’s about making it something that people naturally want to invite their friends to join.

Speaker 1 — Yeah. They see you making a difference and they think I want to be a part of that…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …and I know my friend would too.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — Okay. What about the last gear in this invite culture framework?

Speaker 2 — The final gear is appealing volunteer service.

Speaker 1 — And that one almost feels a little counterintuitive, right, because we often think of volunteering…

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — …as something that we ask people to do…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …once the church is already thriving.

Speaker 2 — Once you have momentum.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, it’s not necessarily seen as a driver of growth. Yeah.

Speaker 2 — Yeah. But he argues that attracting volunteers is actually crucial to building an invite culture.

Speaker 1 — Okay, how so?

Speaker 2 — Well, he talks about how multi-site churches are particularly good at this.

Speaker 1 — Okay,.

Speaker 2 — When you give people ownership of a new location it creates massive buy-in.

Speaker 1 — It makes sense. Because they feel like they’re a part of something from the beginning.

Speaker 2 — From the get-go.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, they’re not just coming in after everything’s already established.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — They’re they’re part of building it from the ground up.

Speaker 2 — He mentions East Side Church’s Climbing the Assimilayas framework, which is all about moving people from being guests to being contributors.

Speaker 1 — I like that.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — It’s a good visual. So the key takeaway here is you don’t wait for growth to magically produce volunteers…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …you focus on attracting volunteers…

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — …as a way to fuel growth.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. When people feel invested in the church, they’re actively serving, contributing. They’re much more likely to invite others to be part of it.

Speaker 1 — Makes sense. They’re they’re bought-in, they’re invested. They want to share that with others.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — Okay, so we’ve we’ve covered a lot of ground just in these first five gears: shareable weekend teaching, eventful big days, captivating online conversations, magnetic community service, and appealing volunteer service.

Speaker 2 — It’s a lot.

Speaker 1 — It’s a lot. I mean, what are your initial thoughts, as you think about this framework and you think about these five gears does anything stand out to you?

Speaker 2 — I think what’s striking me is how intentional each of these gears is.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, it’s not just hoping people will invite their friends.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It’s actually creating a culture…

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — …that leads to invitation

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — So it’s it’s being proactive about it. It’s looking at everything you do from your Sunday services to your online presence to your volunteer programs through the lens of how can we make this more inviting?

Speaker 2 — And I think what’s really helpful about Birch’s approach is that he breaks it down into these manageable chunks, right?

Speaker 1 — Right.

Speaker 2 — So it feels less overwhelming.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, you can kind of focus on one gear at a time…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …and kind of master it and then move on to the next one.

Speaker 2 — So we’ll dive into some specific examples and actionable steps in the next part of our deep dive. But for now, I’d encourage you to think about which of these gears feels like the biggest opportunity for your church right now.

Speaker 1 — That’s a great question to ponder.

Speaker 2 — Where could you make a small tweak or adjustment that could have a big impact on your invite culture?

Speaker 1 — That’s fantastic. We’ll be back in just a moment to explore even more practical tips and strategies from Rich Birch’s book. Stay tuned.

Speaker 2 — Welcome back. I’m excited to kind of dig into some real world examples of churches that are putting these five gears of invite culture into practice…

Speaker 1 — Yeah me too.

Speaker 2 — …and seeing incredible results.

Speaker 1 — Let’s hear it. Give us the inside scoop. Who are some of these churches and what are they doing that’s so effective?

Speaker 2 — One church Birch highlights is Mosaic Church, which has locations all over the U.S.

Speaker 1 — Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 — And they’re known for their incredibly diverse and welcoming atmosphere.

Speaker 1 — I’ve heard great things about Mosaic’s. They seem to have a real knack for connecting with people who might not feel comfortable in a traditional church setting.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, they’ve really cracked the code on creating a space where everyone feels like they belong.

Speaker 1 — So what’s their secret sauce? What are they doing that’s so effective?

Speaker 2 — Well Birch points out that they’re very intentional about creating a culture where people feel comfortable inviting their friends regardless of their background or beliefs.

Speaker 1 — It’s not about fitting into a mold.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It’s about being yourself.

Speaker 2 — It’s about celebrating diversity and making everyone feel welcome and valued

Speaker 1 — So you can bring your your friend who’s you know may be a little skeptical or may be from a completely different background…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …and know that they’re going to be accepted and loved.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — That’s awesome.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — So it’s about creating a space where people can truly be themselves…

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — …and they feel safe bringing their friends into that space.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — I love that, and it’s clearly working for them.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, they’ve seen tremendous growth and a lot of it is attributed to their strong invite culture.

Speaker 1 — It’s amazing what can happen when you create that kind of environment

Speaker 2 — Absolutely. Birch also talks about New Song Community Church in Oceanside, California. And they’re a great example of a church that leverages those eventful big days we discussed earlier.

Speaker 1 — Oh, yeah those high felt need campaigns.

Speaker 2 — Yes. They’re masters at tapping into what’s already on people’s minds and creating events that address those needs in a compelling way.

Speaker 1 — So it’s not just about fun and entertainment.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It’s about offering real solutions…

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — …to the challenges people are facing.

Speaker 2 — It’s about meeting people where they are both emotionally and geographically.

Speaker 1 — I love that.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — And that approach has created this infectious energy within the church. People are excited to invite their friends because they know they’re going to experience something meaningful and impactful.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, it taps into that deep desire within people to be a part of something bigger than themselves, something that makes a difference.

Speaker 1 — Okay, so we’ve got mosaic church. We’ve got New Song Community Church. Any other churches we can learn from?

Speaker 2 — One more that stands out is Beach Church in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

Speaker 1 — Okay

Speaker 2 — And they have a fascinating story because they were actually in decline for a while, but they managed to turn things around by focusing on building a strong outward-focused culture.

Speaker 1 — That’s encouraging.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — Proof that it’s never too late to shift gears and start building that invite culture.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely, and their ethos statement really sums up their approach: to become a connected people cultivated by Christ whose changed lives are changing lives.

Speaker 1 — I love that. So it’s about discipleship transformation and empowering people to reach out to others.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. And they’re living proof that focusing on creating that inviting life-giving culture can lead to incredible growth.

Speaker 1 — They’re a great example for churches that might be feeling discouraged or stuck.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 — So as we’re hearing these success stories, are there any common threads?

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — Any key takeaways that we can glean from these diverse approaches?

Speaker 2 — That’s a great question. There are definitely some overarching themes that emerge from these success stories.

Speaker 1 — Okay, let’s hear them.

Speaker 2 — One thing they all seem to have in common is a deep understanding of their community.

Speaker 1 — Makes sense.

Speaker 2 — They’re not just throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks. They’re taking the time to really understand the people they’re trying to reach.

Speaker 1 — So it’s like they’ve done their market research, but it goes deeper than that.

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — It’s about empathy, about really connecting with people on a human level.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — And it’s reflected in everything they do.

Speaker 2 — Right. Another thing that strikes me is that all of these churches are very intentional about creating a welcoming and inclusive environment.

Speaker 1 — They’re not just focused on attracting new people.

Speaker 2 — Right, yeah.

Speaker 1 — They’re focused on making sure those people feel welcome, valued and loved…

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — …once they walk through the doors.

Speaker 2 — It’s about creating a sense of belonging. A feeling that this is a place where they can truly be themselves and connect with others.

Speaker 1 — So that leads to another key takeaway.

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — These churches are all about empowering their members to be inviters.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — It’s not just relying on the staff or a few key volunteers.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It’s creating a culture where everyone feels equipped and encouraged to invite their friends

Speaker 2 — Yeah, it’s about creating a movement a ripple effect that spreads throughout the community.

Speaker 1 — It’s about recognizing that everyone has a role to play in building this invite culture.

Speaker 2 — And they’re doing this in all sorts of creative ways from providing simple conversation starters to hosting invite-focused small group gatherings…

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — …to celebrating those who are actively bringing new people into the church.

Speaker 1 — It’s about making invitation the norm…

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — …not the exception.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — Okay, this is all fantastic. But I have to ask is there anything Birch says about navigating the potential pitfalls…

Speaker 2 — Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 — …of building an invite culture?

Speaker 2 — Sure.

Speaker 1 — Because it all sounds great…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …but I can imagine there might be some challenges along the way.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — Are there any common mistakes churches make or anything leaders should be aware of as they’re trying to cultivate this kind of environment?

Speaker 2 — Yeah, you’re right. It’s not always easy and Birch doesn’t sugarcoat the potential difficulties.

Speaker 1 — Okay, good.

Speaker 2 — One challenge he addresses is the risk of becoming too focused on numbers and losing sight of the bigger picture.

Speaker 1 — That’s so easy to do, especially when you’re talking about growth and reaching new people.

Speaker 2 — It is and Birch cautions against becoming so fixated on attendance figures that you lose sight of the real goal, which is to connect people with Christ and help them grow in their faith.

Speaker 1 — So it’s about keeping the main thing the main thing

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It’s about remembering that behind every number Is a person, a soul, a story.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely. What are some of the other challenges?

Speaker 1 — Yeah, what else does he talk about?

Speaker 2 — He also talks about the importance of balancing the desire to attract new people with the need to nurture those who are already part of the church.

Speaker 1 — Right. You don’t want to create a culture where long-time members feel neglected or overlooked…

Speaker 2 — Exactly

Speaker 1 — …in pursuit of new faces.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, he emphasizes that a healthy invite culture is not about replacing existing members. It’s about expanding the circle to include more people.

Speaker 1 — I like that.

Speaker 2 — It’s about growing together as a community.

Speaker 1 — So it’s not us versus them.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It’s we.

Speaker 2 — It’s all of us together.

Speaker 1 — All of us on this journey together.

Speaker 2 — And that requires being sensitive to the needs of both long-time members and newcomers, making sure everyone feels valued and connected.

Speaker 1 — That’s a great point. It’s about creating a sense of belonging for everyone.

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — Regardless of how long they’ve been a part of the church.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely. He also acknowledges that you might encounter pushback or resistance from within the church…

Speaker 1 — Oh, yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 2 — …as you begin to implement these five gears.

Speaker 1 — People don’t always like change.

Speaker 2 — Right. Change can be difficult and not everyone might be on board with the idea of actively inviting outsiders, especially if they’re comfortable with the status quo.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, they might think, we’re doing just fine. Why rock the boat.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. So, how do you navigate that?

Speaker 1 — Yeah, how do you bring people along on the journey?

Speaker 2 — Well, he emphasizes the importance of clear communication, of explaining the why behind the shift towards invite culture.

Speaker 1 — So it’s not just telling people to invite their friends…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It’s helping them understand the vision…

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — …the purpose, the potential impact.

Speaker 2 — It’s about casting a compelling vision that resonates with people’s hearts. Not just their heads.

Speaker 1 — So you’re painting a picture of what’s possible, of the lives that could be changed, of the community that could be built if everyone embraced this idea of inviting others in.

Speaker 2 — And it might take some time.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, because people have to have to get on board with that vision.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — Okay, so that’s the why. What about the how? What are some practical tips…

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — …for actually implementing these gears?

Speaker 2 — Well, Birch is a big believer in starting small.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — Not trying to overhaul everything overnight.

Speaker 1 — So don’t try to do all five gears at once.

Speaker 2 — Right. It’s about taking incremental steps, celebrating small victories, and building momentum over time.

Speaker 1 — So it’s a process.

Speaker 2 — It is.

Speaker 1 — It’s a journey.

Speaker 2 — Yes, and it’s about being patient, recognizing that changing a church’s culture takes time, effort, and a lot of grace .

Speaker 1 — What’s something specific churches can start doing today…

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — …to move in the direction of creating a more inviting environment?

Speaker 2 — One of the simplest yet most effective things churches can do is to simply start using language that encourages invitation in all of their communications.

Speaker 1 — Oh, okay So instead of just saying come to our new series…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …you say: invite a friend to our new series.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. It’s subtle but it shifts the mindset from inward to outward.

Speaker 1 — It normalizes the idea of invitation.

Speaker 2 — Yes and you can do this in your bulletins, on your website, in your announcement.

Speaker 1 — It’s just kind of weaving it into the fabric of how you communicate.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely. He also suggests leveraging small groups and teams as a way to create natural accountability and support for inviting.

Speaker 1 — So instead of just relying on announcements from the pulpit…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …you’re creating a culture where inviting is happening organically…

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — …within those smaller communities. I like that. And of course don’t forget to celebrate success.

Speaker 2 — Yes, celebrate.

Speaker 1 — Make sure you’re acknowledging and appreciating those who are actively inviting others.

Speaker 2 — It reinforces that this is a value that your church embraces and celebrates. It creates a positive feedback loop

Speaker 1 — The more you celebrate it, the more people will do it.

Speaker 2 — The more likely people are to keep doing it.

Speaker 1 — Yeah.

Speaker 2 — …and it helps create a contagious enthusiasm that can spread throughout the church.

Speaker 1 — This has been such a great overview of the potential challenges and rewards of building an invite culture. As we wrap up this part of our deep dive, what’s one final thought you’d leave with our listeners?

Speaker 2 — Okay.

Speaker 1 — Something to really chew on as they start putting these ideas into practice.

Speaker 2 — What’s really resonated with me throughout this conversation is Birch’s belief that a thriving invite culture isn’t just about getting more people in the door.

Speaker 1 — It’s about more than just numbers.

Speaker 2 — Right. It’s about moving beyond a consumeristic mindset when it comes to church.

Speaker 1 — So it’s not just about what we get out of church…

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — …it’s about what we can give back…

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — …how we can contribute to something bigger than ourselves.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. It’s about shifting from being passive consumers to becoming active participants, inviting others to join us on this journey of faith and transformation.

Speaker 1 — And when that happens, something truly remarkable is unleashed.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. It’s about creating a movement of love grace and generosity that extends far beyond the walls of the church building and into the very heart of the community.

Speaker 1 — We’ll be back in a moment to unpack some practical strategies for putting these five gears into action.

Speaker 1 — All right. Welcome back to the final part of our deep dive into Rich Birch’s Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture. We’ve talked about the why, we’ve looked at some inspiring examples, but now let’s get down to the how.

Speaker 2 — Exactly, let’s get practical

Speaker 1 — What are some tangible steps our listeners can take right now to cultivate that magnetic inviting atmosphere in their churches?

Speaker 2 — Birch is all about practical application. And he packs the book with actionable advice. But for our deep dive today, let’s zoom in on some key takeaways for each of the five gears we’ve discussed.

Speaker 1 — Sounds good to me. Let’s break it down gear by gear, starting with shareable weekend teaching.

Speaker 2 — Okay, great.

Speaker 1 — We’ve already talked about making those sermons relevant, authentic, really hitting those felt needs. What else can churches do to turn those Sunday messages into something people can’t wait to share?

Speaker 2 — One thing Birch highlights is being strategic about how you promote those messages. Are you simply announcing the topic? Or are you giving people a sneak peek into how it will connect with their lives, the lives of their friends?

Speaker 1 — Yeah, it’s like those movie trailers.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — You know, you see a good trailer and you’re like, I have to see that movie.

Speaker 2 — Gotta see it.

Speaker 1 — You’ve got to know what happens.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — So, how do we create those kind of trailers for our sermons?

Speaker 2 — Birch offers a whole menu of promotional tactics. Give us a taste. For instance, imagine sending a text blast a week before a series kicks off.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — Encourage people to reply with the name of someone they plan to invite.

Speaker 1 — I like that.

Speaker 2 — Gets people thinking about inviting right from the get-go.

Speaker 1 — It’s so simple, but it plants that seed.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — It gets them thinking outwardly.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — What about after the sermon is over. How do you keep those conversations going?

Speaker 2 — Birch is a huge proponent of providing follow-up resources that are easy to share.

Speaker 1 — So things like?

Speaker 2 — Discussion guides, social media graphics, even short video clips of key takeaways. All of this can help extend the conversation beyond Sunday morning and into people’s everyday lives.

Speaker 1 — It’s equipping them to share the message in a way that feels natural.

Speaker 2 — Exactly, not just handing them a bulletin and hoping for the best.

Speaker 1 — Right, and maybe even think about having the teaching pastor record a short behind-the-scenes video…

Speaker 2 — That’s a great idea.

Speaker 1 — …about the series. Let them share their heart for the message. Why they think it will resonate with people.

Speaker 2 — That personal touch can go a long way.

Speaker 1 — Okay, that’s great. Let’s shift gears now to eventful big days.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — We had some fun with those over the top examples: helicopter egg drops…

Speaker 2 — Right. While those might not be for every church, the principle behind them is gold.

Speaker 1 — Okay

Speaker 2 — It’s about being creative thinking outside the box and leveraging those cultural moments when people are naturally more open to invitations.

Speaker 1 — So thinking about like what’s already generating buzz.

Speaker 2 — Exactly, and how you can tap into that energy.

Speaker 1 — So you don’t necessarily have to reinvent the wheel.

Speaker 2 — Right. You’re just finding those existing opportunities and putting your own spin on them,

Speaker 1 — Right. And it doesn’t have to be expensive or elaborate.

Speaker 2 — No, it doesn’t.

Speaker 1 — Even something as simple as a themed potluck or a movie night…

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — …can be a great way to attract new people and create a natural environment. And what’s powerful about those big days is that they create a shared experience.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, something people can talk about afterwards.

Speaker 2 — Something they can bond over.

Speaker 1 — All right. Let’s jump into captivating online conversations. This is where I think a lot of churches feel both excited and overwhelmed.

Speaker 2 — Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1 — There are just so many platforms and trends.

Speaker 2 — It can be a lot.

Speaker 1 — Where do you even begin? What’s Birch’s advice?

Speaker 2 — He encourages us to think about creating content that is native to the internet.

Speaker 1 — Okay. So what does that mean?

Speaker 2 — In other words, you need to understand how people consume content online, and tailor your approach accordingly.

Speaker 1 — It needs to feel authentic…

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — …relatable and designed for how people are actually engaging.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. Like we talked about before, it’s about meeting people where they are.

Speaker 1 — He mentioned IF:Gathering as a prime example of a ministry doing this well.

Speaker 2 — Yes, their content feels so organic to the platform. Think short shareable videos, interactive discussions, visually appealing aesthetic.

Speaker 1 — It just feels like a natural extension of their ministry, not an afterthought.

Speaker 2 — Right, exactly.

Speaker 1 — It’s important because people can spot in authenticity a mile away.

Speaker 2 — Especially online.

Speaker 1 — Yeah.

Speaker 2 — Yeah.

Speaker 1 — What about social media specifically?

Speaker 2 — Birch encourages churches to think beyond just posting announcements or sermon quotes.

Speaker 1 — Okay, so what else?

Speaker 2 — How can you use social media to spark conversations, share inspiring stories, and highlight the real-life impact your church is having?

Speaker 1 — It’s about creating content that people actually want to engage with.

Speaker 2 — Yes, he talks about using humor, asking questions, responding genuinely to comments, really being social.

Speaker 1 — Be social on social media.

Speaker 2 — Exactly!

Speaker 1 — Novel idea, right?

Speaker 2 — It is.

Speaker 1 — I like it. He also suggests leveraging those those social media holidays. You know National Donut Day, International Dog Day. It might seem silly.

Speaker 2 — It does. It’s a fun way to create light-hearted content that people are more likely to share.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, you know and tag their friends in.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — Okay, I’ve got to admit those are always my favorite posts to see.

Speaker 2 — Mine, too.

Speaker 1 — It humanizes the church.

Speaker 2 — It does, makes it feel more approachable.

Speaker 1 — Okay on to magnetic community service. We’ve talked about making these events both meaningful and fun. What are some specific things churches can do to create those irresistible service experiences?

Speaker 2 — Birch emphasizes starting by truly understanding the needs of your community.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — Connect with local leaders schools or non-profits. Find out what the most pressing issues are it’s about being a good neighbor…

Speaker 1 — Demonstrating that you care.

Speaker 2 — Yes. He tells the story about a pastor who asked the mayor what the biggest need in their city was.

Speaker 1 — Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 — And the mayor was taken aback. Apparently no one had ever asked him that before.

Speaker 1 — That’s amazing.

Speaker 2 — It’s a simple question.

Speaker 1 — Yeah.

Speaker 2 — Yeah, but it speaks volumes about the church’s posture.

Speaker 1 — It’s about being proactive not reactive.

Speaker 2 — Exactly.

Speaker 1 — And then of course, there’s the fun factor.

Speaker 2 — Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 — We got to make it fun. Big t-shirts, great music, maybe even a dedicated volunteer care team.

Speaker 2 — Yes, to make everyone feel appreciated.

Speaker 1 — Birch is a big fan of those service sprints, too.

Speaker 2 — Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 — Those short focused bursts of activity.

Speaker 2 — Much less intimidating.

Speaker 1 — Yeah, than a long-term commitment.

Speaker 2 — Right. It’s about making it doable, enjoyable, something people will naturally want to invite their friends to.

Speaker 1 — Create that camaraderie…

Speaker 2 — Positive energy.

Speaker 1 — Okay, last gear – appealing volunteer service. This is the one that feels a little counterintuitive.

Speaker 2 — Right.

Speaker 1 — But we’ve talked about how vital it is for building an invite culture.

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — What are some specific things churches can do to create those, I want to be a part of that volunteer opportunities.

Speaker 2 — It starts with having a clear and streamlined onboarding process.

Speaker 1 — Okay.

Speaker 2 — Make it easy for people to sign up, understand their role, and feel equipped to serve.

Speaker 1 — So no one wants to feel lost or confused when they’re trying to get involved. It’s like rolling out the red carpet for your volunteers.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. Create a welcoming environment. Supportive, provide adequate training, make sure they feel like valued members of the team.

Speaker 1 — Make them feel appreciated. And just like with those community service events, think about ways to create opportunities for volunteers to connect outside of their serving roles.

Speaker 2 — That’s a great idea.

Speaker 1 — Host social gatherings.

Speaker 2 — Yes. Team building activities.

Speaker 1 — It’s about creating a sense of community

Speaker 2 — Not just checking tasks off a list.

Speaker 1 — And don’t forget to celebrate and appreciate your volunteers.

Speaker 2 — Absolutely.

Speaker 1 — Make it clear that their contributions are essential.

Speaker 2 — Yes.

Speaker 1 — It goes a long way in creating that culture where serving is seen as a joy, a privilege…

Speaker 2 — It really does.

Speaker 1 — …a way to connect and make a difference. This has been such a fantastic deep dive. We’ve covered so much ground from the big picture concepts to the nitty-gritty steps. What’s a final nugget of wisdom you’d leave with our listeners?

Speaker 2 — I think the most important takeaway from Rich Birch’s book and from our conversation today is that creating a thriving invite culture is a marathon not a sprint.

Speaker 1 — It’s about small changes consistently applied over time.

Speaker 2 — Exactly. So don’t get overwhelmed trying to do everything at once.

Speaker A — Start small. Pick one gear to focus on.

Speaker 2 — Yes. And build from there.

Speaker 1 — And he talks about the aggregation of marginal gains It’s the idea that small improvements in a lot of areas can add up to a significant advantage.

Speaker 2 — Right. It’s all those little things.

Speaker 1 — You’re not looking for that magic bullet.

Speaker 2 — Nope.

Speaker 1 — You’re cultivating a culture.

Speaker 2 — And that takes time, intentionality, and a whole lot of grace.

Speaker 1 — And speaking of going deeper, if you’re ready to really dive into these ideas, I highly recommend picking up a copy of Rich Birch’s Unlocking Your Church’s Invite Culture. It’s full of even more insights examples and actionable steps you can start implementing today.

Speaker 2 — It’s a great resource.

Speaker 1 — Well, it’s been such a pleasure unpacking these ideas with you. And until next time, keep diving deep and keep unlocking that invite culture.

From Despair to Connection: Helping Youth Overcome Mental Health Challenges with Will Hutcherson Oct 24, 2024

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Will Hutcherson, a Next Gen and Student Pastor who has become increasingly passionate about finding practical ways to bring hope to kids and teens who are facing anxiety, depression, and despair. This led to him starting Curate Hope, a non-profit that focuses on suicide prevention, mental health awareness, and partnering with schools, churches, and parents to help heal despair in teens.

Recent years have shown an alarming rise in mental health challenges among young people. Adolescents desperately need connection, and the church is uniquely positioned to help them take healthy next steps using practical strategies as well as spiritual tools. Tune in as Will shares his insights on how churches can come alongside youth struggling with anxiety and depression.

People, places, and purposes. // Recent statistics underscore the urgency of addressing mental health issues among young people. These diagnoses are not just a medical issue, but also come from social, political, and environmental influences around us. In order for people to recover from mental health challenges, they need people, a place, and a purpose. The church can play a crucial role in providing a sense of community, belonging, and God-given purpose as people discover who God has called them to be.
Conversations and connections. // The foundation for helping kids and teens through these issues is to cultivate more opportunity for conversations and connection within church settings. For decades, as a society, we’ve been trending towards less and less connection. The church needs to create more face-to-face opportunities where kids and teens feel seen.
Ask yourself these questions. // Explore with your team what it might look like to create programs and environments to have more conversation spaces. What would it look like to build in more connection time in the Sunday service? How can you create more conversations?
Build connection first. // Connection is like vitamins to the brain. When we feel seen on a deep level, it releases happy hormones and builds resilience. When someone is experiencing despair, hopelessness, or high anxiety, physiologically it’s more difficult for them to receive left brain logic. Instead, speak to the right brain first and meet them with heart. Help a person “emotionally exhale” before you work on reframing, focusing on the truth of scripture, and taking healthy steps towards building resilience.
Student small groups. // Small groups are a core need of adolescent development. Youth need connection and creating spaces for them to have conversations with a caring adult is one of the best things for their mental health. Through student small groups, you’ll have a better chance of seeing when a mental health issue arises and helping guide adolescents through it. Coordinate youth ministry small groups to be on the same the night as adult small groups to make it easier for families.
Emotions and God. // Churches can unintentionally demonize emotions. Emotions like fear and anxiety are natural human experiences and should not be viewed as indicators of being far from God or lacking faith. Instead, churches should create an environment where individuals feel safe to express their emotions and seek help without fear of judgment.
Practical connection tools. // Will’s book Seen: Despair and Anxiety in Kids and Teenagers and the Power of Connection is a great tool for church leaders to read with kids and youth ministry leaders. It offers practical connection tools that are very simple to understand and will help move the brain towards healing.

To learn more about Will, his books and access the resources on his website, visit willhutch.com.

NEXT STEPS // Unlocking Deeper Youth Connections: Free Cheat Sheet Download

Looking for practical ways to build deeper, more meaningful connections with the youth you serve? The Connection Strategies Cheat Sheet offers five powerful, actionable tools to enhance your relationship-building efforts, inspired by the latest episode of the unSeminary podcast with Will Hutcherson. Will explains how connection is “vitamins for the brain”—a necessity for emotional and mental well-being. This resource distills his expert insights into easy-to-follow strategies, like leveraging the “3-Second Rule” for engagement and using small wins to boost confidence. Download the cheat sheet now and start fostering stronger connections that support the mental health and spiritual growth of the next generation!

Thank You for Tuning In!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is one of those conversations that ah quickly we’re gonna get into and you’re gonna be able to apply. You’re not going to be wondering, hey, this doesn’t apply to me in my ministry context. I just know ah that so many of us are wrestling with ah the issues that we’re going to be talking about today. Honored to have Will Hutcherson with us. Will has been a next gen and student pastor for over 15 years.

Rich Birch — Over the past several years he has become increasingly passionate about finding practical ways to bring to hope to kids and teens who are facing increasing amounts of anxiety, depression, and despair. This led him to starting Curate Hope, a nonprofit that focuses on suicide prevention, mental health awareness, and partnering with schools, churches, and parents to help heal despair in teens. Will is also the co-author of a couple books on anxiety for kids and teens. Welcome to the show, Will. So glad you’re here.

Will Hutcherson — Oh, thanks for having me, Rich.

Rich Birch — This is going to be great. Tell us kind of fill out the picture. That’s, that’s the bio, but kind of give us a bit more of the will story.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I’ve been an next gen pastor for many years and I remember early on in my ministry, you know, kind of as youth pastors, it was really about reduced risk, you know? Help kids make good choices, right? Follow Jesus. And somewhere around the mid-2000s, mid-teens rather, around 2015, 2016, I started to notice a change that I think all of us in ministry started to notice, that there was an uptick in mental health challenges.
Will Hutcherson — And I remember as a pastor feeling like I had these amazing spiritual tools. Like I knew that there’s power in Jesus name, there’s power in scripture reading. I knew that there’s there’s power in biblical community and getting people plugged into biblical community. But oftentimes I just wondered what can I do practically to help these kids and these students, and these parents, who are really facing some some challenges in regards to mental health. And so at the time, the best the best response was, you know, we’ll send them to a counselor. But even even you know nearly 10 years ago now, like we had affordability issues, we had access issues. And now post COVID, that’s increased even further.

Rich Birch — A hundred percent.

Will Hutcherson — And so um so that’s where the passion came from. You know oftentimes people ask me, how’d you get into mental health? Did you have a mental health challenge? And it really is ah, no, I really care about the next generation, feel called to the next generation.

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — And so this is their problem, so it became my problem.

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think yeah you we were talking a little bit before we got started. This is not one of those that I think everybody that’s listening in is like, ah yes, ah we have seen this in our context.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — We are wrestling with these issues. It’s not like, I don’t know what you’re you’re talking about. So let’s let’s talk about that uptick. You know, is your sense that you know this kind of uptick in mental health issues that we’re seeing in our ministries, is this is this like an actual rise, or is it that we’re more aware of it, or is it a combo of both of those things? You know, what’s what’s your sense around around that?

Will Hutcherson — Yeah. That’s a great question. You know, I think sometimes leaders and parents ask that question of like, okay, we see the rise of anxiety disorders being diagnosed. Or we see the rise of depression and disorders being diagnosed. Is it just that all of a sudden it popped up, or are we just better at catching it, diagnosing it?

Will Hutcherson — I would say when you look at the hard data specifically, when it comes to, ah let’s say, self-harm. We can see that non-fatal self-harm admissions to a hospital have increased drastically for ah each demographic, both for 15 to 19, but then the biggest one was actually 10 to 14 years old.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Will Hutcherson — Specifically for non-fatal self-harm hospital admissions, just for the 10 to 14 years old, we’re looking at 188% increase for girls.

Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.

Will Hutcherson — And so when you look at those hard data points, you’re like, regardless of the diagnoses, we’re seeing some behaviors that didn’t exist in previous generations…

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — …that show us that there is a a challenge. Now, The other very startling statistic in the hard data is the suicide rates as well. And so, again, ah that’s not just a better diagnosis, quote unquote, that we can we can say that that really is like things that are happening.

Will Hutcherson — Now, I will say here’s the ah good news. We have started to see that those statistics are getting a little bit better in the last year to 18 months. So I think we’re moving in a good direction. I think the church plays a huge part of helping communities cope. In fact, mental health professionals are recognizing that, by the way.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Will Hutcherson — ah Mental health professionals are recognizing, you know what? Hey, the solution is medical, but it’s not just medical. In fact, Dr. Thomas Insel, who was a former national director of mental health institute ah did it for 10 years. He, about two years ago, came out with a book and said, the problem isn’t just medical, it’s also social, um it’s political, it’s environmental. And he said this, he said, the solutions have to be medical, but also people, in order for them to recover from mental health challenges, especially severe mental health challenges, they need—listen to this—people, place, and purpose.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Will Hutcherson — Now this is a doctor, a scientist, who’s saying the research shows in order to have long-term recovery with mental health challenges, they need people, place, and purpose. Now what institution exists in our world that gives people…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.

Will Hutcherson — …people, a place where they feel safe and they belong, and a sense of purpose knowing that God created them and they’re here for a reason.

Rich Birch — Interesting.

Will Hutcherson — It’s the church. I believe 100% that we are uniquely designed to help move people away from mental health challenges and illnesses to exactly who God’s called them to be. But we have to recognize that there’s spiritual tools and there’s also practical tools to that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — And I think that’s what we’re we’re moving towards. we’re we’re We’re becoming a lot wiser in our approach um than previous decades. I think, you know, the church is kind of moving along with this as well. Previous decades is kind of like we solve every problem with prayer, you know?
Rich Birch — Yeah, just keep praying and it’ll be fine. Yeah, yeah.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah. Just pray, pray the anxiety away. And and that prayer is good and it’s powerful, but the brain is also an organ. And so there’s practical things that we could do to, to help that organ move in a positive direction. So.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. And, you know, there even the question around where where did all this come from in some ways is like a head fake. It’s like, well, you know, it’s here.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And so the reality of it is we, you know, I know there’s so many leaders that are listening in today that are, um they’re like, hey, I we want to know what we can do. Like what, how can we be the kind of church that supports parents, that supports um you know young people who are wrestling with these issues? What would be some of those kind of common telltale signs of a church that is structuring their ministry in a way to help support um a ah young people that are wrestling with you know with these issues?

Will Hutcherson — So, I mean, the basic foundation that I could say, and it’s gonna almost sound too cliche, so but but go with me for a minute.

Rich Birch — Go with me. Yeah.

Will Hutcherson — It it’s cultivating more opportunity for conversations and connection. Because the core root problem that we’ve kind of ah evolved to, because you know everyone wants to point it to social media. Like mental health crisis was caused by social media and Instagram. That that didn’t help. I mean, social media did not help, especially youth mental health. However, for decades, we’ve been kind of trending in a direction as as a society of less and less connection. And that influences the brain in a big way. So we need to create more face-to-face opportunities for people to feel seen, where they feel connection with another person.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson — And so what can we do within our churches? I think, ah one, there’s some practical things that we could do, and we can get into those in a minute. But just even programmatically, what does it look like for us to create ah programs and environments, redesign our our churches to have more soft spaces and conversational spaces?

Will Hutcherson — What would it look like for us to figure out how to create more ah connection time within the Sunday morning gathering, you know? I don’t know how this would work, but you know look at your neighbor and ask them this question. You know it’s like It sounds too cheesy, but like how can we create more conversations?

Will Hutcherson — Because, conversations are the seeds to friendship. Every friendship starts with a conversation. And friendship really is the seed to discipleship. It’s through a trusted relationship that people are able to be discipled. And so one of our best discipleship process happens to also be very good for mental health. It’s just creating more connection where people can feel seen, where they feel that they have a place where they belong, people that they belong to, and a sense of purpose.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson — And so that’s kind of a ah bigger philosophical macro side of it. But the practical side, I think it really looks like um creating trainings for ah small group leaders, for leaders on how to slow down, how to see someone. It really stems through understanding, I would say, how God has wired our brains.

Will Hutcherson — So going back to that, that illustration I said, or I’m sorry, the ah analogy I said, that um our brain is an organ, right? And I was i was talking about the brain as an organ. If I were having a heart attack, my hope would be that you would say, Will, you’re having a heart attack, I’m going to pray for you and I’m going to call any ambulance, right?

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.

Will Hutcherson — We understand that there’s faith and action together. When it comes to the brain, I think we forget sometimes that it’s an organ of our body, and we just kind of result to, well, let’s just work on steps that you can take, or reframing your thoughts. You know, kind of almost keep it only in the head space. You know, I’m going to pray for you or focus on scripture, you know, and and it’ll go away.

Will Hutcherson — And again, those are powerful things. I don’t want to minimize the power of of ah all of those things. But knowing that the brain is an organ, there are sometimes some very practical things that help the brain move in a positive direction. Connection is like vitamins to the brain.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson — So when we feel seen on a deep level, it releases happy hormones. It helps build resilience.

Will Hutcherson — Specifically, when we face stress and anxiety, ah cortisol floods the brain. Well, cortisol tends to increase processing on the right side of the brain, the amygdala fires off, blood flow increases on the right side of the brain, and actually decreases on the logical left side of the brain. So when somebody is experiencing despair, place of hopelessness, or they’re experiencing high anxiety, and we try to give them left brain logic, like here’s how you should think or focus on the truth of scripture, the problem is is that the left brain is actually decreased in processing, and it’s hard for them to actually even grasp it.
Will Hutcherson — So it’s kind of like the, like think of like the right side and the left side of of the brain are almost like dis-paired, like detached when somebody is experiencing despair. So when we recognize that as church leaders, we could say, okay, this is a dis-paired brain or this is right brain energy that this person’s experiencing. Let me meet them first right there. Let me meet them with right brain.

Will Hutcherson — As we meet them with right brain, we’re going to meet them with heart. We’re going to meet them with emotion. We’re going to help them to what Dr. Chinwé and I like to talk about a lot is emotionally exhale. That decreases the right side of the brain activity and actually increases the left side of the brain. So then you could do the work of reframing, focusing on the truth of scripture, um helping them take some healthy steps and and processes towards building resilience.

Rich Birch — That’s so great.

Will Hutcherson — So ah when somebody feels connection, when they feel seen, um oxytocin, yeah which is the hormone that’s resulting or responsible for emotional attachment, oxytocin is released and it can actually bring the two sides back together in reengage logical processing. So this is why when I talk about conversations, I talk about connection, it’s really the science behind how God has wired our brains of why that’s so powerful.

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — It’s not just a nice little catchphrase of like, we just need more connection. No, it’s like research back.

Rich Birch — Right, yes

Will Hutcherson — Like we need more face to face connection to help promote healthy mental health.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. And and you know, I think that’s what a great, I love that connection is, is like vitamins to the brain. That’s a great sticky statement. But also just a great thing for us to be thinking about framing it as we’re thinking about our own ministries, our own student ministries. And for sure, you know, I started in student ministry, have been, you know, in senior leadership for a bunch of years. And one of the things that’s changed for sure in student ministry is like, and I sound like an old man, but it was like back in my day, like it was like, it was all about like entertaining kids. It was like, and oh, we would never say it like that. We would have a lot more spiritual words to say that, but it was like, let’s put on the biggest show. Let’s get them in, you know, rows somewhere, you know, we’ll have something funny happen.

Rich Birch — But for sure, we’ve seen over time that actually it seems like prevailing ministries, particularly to students, Man, there’s ah there’s a there’s a real groups undercurrent there. Like how do we get people talking with each other? What would be some of those things that particularly, maybe on the student ministry front that that we should be thinking about um, you know, adding to our ministries on the practical side? Like what what are some you know is there, are there certain habits we should have in the way we do our programming to try to increase ah you know that connection particularly with students? What would that look like?

Will Hutcherson — Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that question, by the way, because I’m still surprised that despite um where student ministry has gone, that we still have quite a few churches that do not prioritize small groups within student ministry. And I just want to pause and say…

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — …if you are not doing small groups, in your student ministry, you are missing a core need of adolescent development.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Will Hutcherson — Adolescents desperately need connection, and it’s really helpful for their mental health. Like so creating spaces for them to have conversations, intentional conversations, with a caring adult is possibly one of the best things you can do for their mental health. Because if a mental health challenge pops up, as a youth ministry, you’re going to have a better chance of recognizing it, seeing it, and being able to help guide that student towards some some healthy steps, whether that’s seeking professional help, having a conversation with their school counselor, um whatever those extra steps are. If you don’t have a ah small group ministry that is really intentional about connecting once a week, at least, with their kids, with a small group leader and students, it’s going to be really hard to to identify that.

Will Hutcherson — And and you know if you’re listening to this, you’re you’re a senior leader, and you’re like, ah, but our student ministry is only like 15. Our youth pastor, it’s a small group in itself. I would I would say um, even with a ah small group of 15, you still need to have a small group ministry because you can’t track with the stories of more than maybe eight people.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Will Hutcherson — And so you can’t show up at the games and it takes a lot of relational building, as we all know as pastors. It takes a lot of time to build that relational trust. And so empower leaders to be part of the ministry, create a small group ministry within your student ministry if it’s not already existing.

Will Hutcherson — And I would also say, so here’s the last caveat to that, I would say in terms of student ministry, I would say um don’t necessarily put your small groups at a different time from your youth ministry programming.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Will Hutcherson — Put them on the same night.

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — Parents are way too busy. So what often happens is we want to check the box of small group ministry and we say, well, we have student ministry at this time and then our small groups happen at all these other times. And what I’ve seen is that usually you have 10%, maybe 15% participation because they’re busy.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson — They got soccer games, they got football games, they got a whole bunch of other things.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson — And depending on your city, that can be really, really challenging. So, put it in the same night, the same time. Youth pastors don’t need to preach for 45 minutes, even 30 minutes, 25 minutes, and then put them in small groups. Let the preaching happen…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson —…in the context of conversation.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good. That’s great. I love that. Beyond kind of um the over-spiritualization, which for sure happens, right? There are churches that, you you know, we kind we kind of made the joke earlier today, right? Like, pray the anxiety away. But, you know, beyond that, because I think there’s a lot of churches that obviously understand that that’s ah a pothole that we’re you know we’re not going to fall into. But what would be some common potholes that churches fall into on this front that they’re like maybe a common mistake they make, or a common um thing that you’ve seen where you you know you’re in a church, maybe you’re visiting you’re coaching a church, and like you wince a little bit and you’re like oh I kind of wish we weren’t doing that. And you know you can be totally honest because you don’t have to be nice to people. You’re they’re just listening in now. What would be ah you know a common pothole that you’ve you’ve seen um you know churches or maybe ah you know run into um from time to time?

Will Hutcherson — I mean, the one that comes to my mind is, you know, I was, I was at a conference not too long ago. And that they there was a speaker before me who was giving an altar call. And he was having, you know, people come forward and, he’s you know, he’s just praying. He’s like, we’re going to pray in Jesus name that the anxiety will be, will be gone, you know. And, and like, just kind of that, again, praying the anxiety away.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Will Hutcherson — And, and I’m not saying that there isn’t power in prayer and there isn’t power in something being “broken off of us” you know if, I’m just saying that sometimes there’s a process of how God moves us into um that peace and stillness and the fruit of the Spirit, you know?

Will Hutcherson — I think about the disciples. I’m like the disciples, they they were a mess throughout those three years, you know? Like they still had anxiety. They still were fearful.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true. Yeah.

Will Hutcherson — You know like there wasn’t a moment that they just believed that Jesus was the son of God and all of a sudden they didn’t face mental health challenges to a degree, you know? Now, despite those mental health challenges, they still took steps towards Jesus, right? So it’s like…

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — …it’s it’s I think just maybe even recognizing that, especially with anxiety, anxiety is like the common cold for the brain, by the way. So it’s it’s sometimes it’s a big problem. Sometimes it’s like, you know, you get a cold and sometimes it turns into a sinus infection, right? Or it turns into bronchitis.
Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — So it can become more, but then sometimes anxiety is just a common cold. Like sometimes it just kind of comes and it goes away and it doesn’t mean that there’s necessarily something that needs to be “broken off of you”. It’s just something to be even aware of.

Will Hutcherson — I would say the other pitfall is that churches will unintentionally, at times when we’re preaching, we will kind of, for lack of a better words, demonize emotions, where in our phrasing, in our language, um will put emotions in such a negative light that it makes people feel like, if I feel this emotion, I’m far from God.
Will Hutcherson — And again, like take fear, for instance. You know, some people will say like, you know, the Bible says do not fear 360 times. Based off of what I I did with a lot of research and looking at all the instances that I could find in both Hebrew and Greek, I found the specific phrasing of do not be afraid. I think I found it 167 times throughout the scriptures. So we can look at that and say, so if we are afraid then we’re obviously not doing what God calls us to do.

Will Hutcherson — But the reality is is that fear is just an emotion. And again, we were created with these emotions. It’s what we do with that fear.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson — Like did Jesus feel the emotion of fear…

Rich Birch —Right.

Will Hutcherson — …on the cross. Possibly. Did that mean he had no faith? No.

Rich Birch — Yes, right. Yes.

Will Hutcherson — Did that mean he didn’t trust God? No.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah.

Will Hutcherson — But did he feel the emotion of fear? Sure.

Rich Birch — Sure. Yep.

Will Hutcherson — He felt all the emotions of humankind. So I think it’s important for us to recognize that emotions are just emotions.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Will Hutcherson — Like and it’s okay to acknowledge those emotions. It’s okay to let people kind of sit in them for a little bit. like Don’t be afraid to let someone just sit in the emotion for a little bit. It doesn’t mean that they’re somehow moving away from Jesus. In fact, sometimes our emotions can actually draw us a whole lot closer to Jesus.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I like that. So, um you know, well, first of all, I think that’s great kind of coaching, great, um you know, reminder, great direction for us. I was thinking specifically on that whole, you know, like, um you know, “break off the anxiety, Lord”, kind of prayer that could, you know, that, you know, and I can imagine myself saying that. Like I can imagine myself ah so I appreciate you call that out cuz I’m like yeah that’s true. I guess would you is a better way, and I realize it’s like maybe a bit weird to say it that way, but like a better way to pray in that kind of situation it’s it’s more about like, you know, Lord, give them more, more peace, more comfort, Lord, extend, you know, your goodness, restore what has been, you know, uh, you know, isn’t necessarily, I don’t know, I’m not sure what the language is to use there.

Rich Birch — How would you suggest is kind of a better way for us to pray? Um, obviously we know from a theological perspective, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us and translates all that, but you know, we’re also leading in the room that we’re in and we want to, we want to ensure that we create a place where I don’t want somebody who’s in, I don’t want a student, because we’re talking particularly about student who’s in our environment today, to feel like we’ve somehow, you know, [inaudible] them, made them feel terrible um through my prayer, but I do want to show care and I do want to kind of point towards like, Hey, I would love for them to take steps in a new direction.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Is that the kind of thing, like more, more peace, maybe fruit pray through the fruit of the Spirit. You had mentioned that.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like, Hey, love more joy, more peace, more of that kind of thing.
Will Hutcherson — I think you just mentioned it.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Will Hutcherson — Like we want them to take healthy steps, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — And so pray those prayers, like God help us to to take the healthy steps to overcoming our anxiety.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good.

Will Hutcherson — God help us to acknowledge and know that you’re with us…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yep.

Will Hutcherson — …in the midst of our anxiety or in the midst of our fear. God help us to be brave and to do the hard thing even when we’re afraid, right?

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah.

Will Hutcherson — Like it’s it’s the recognizing that “even when, help us do” …and move in the right direction. So it just, I think it’s a little bit more mindful…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Will Hutcherson — …that this is where we are and it’s okay for where we are, you know? And we don’t want whether it’s a student or someone in our church to feel like just because they have anxiety or because they’re facing fear or depression that somehow they’re disappointing God or they’re far from God.

Rich Birch — Wow, that’s good.

Will Hutcherson — It’s just a condition. It’s just something that they’re experiencing. And and I think the more that we can use language that helps people to recognize mental health challenges, because our brain is an organ, is just part of how our bodies sometimes get out of whack.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Will Hutcherson — And so yes, we do need the healing of the Lord, but it’s both faith and action.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Will Hutcherson — And so just like you know if I had a heart condition, we would never ever say it’s because of my lack of ah faith that I need to take…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Will Hutcherson — …you know ah cholesterol or…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Will Hutcherson — …or high blood pressure pills, you know.

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — But sometimes I think unintentionally, whether it’s within our ah you know our sermon, I don’t I don’t think it’s really within our sermons, but I think people just tend to generally equate because I’m struggling with a brain thing, it must be that I’m not, you know, close enough to God or God’s not helping me in some way. And it’s like, no, that’s not true.

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — Like it’s just a condition that you’re facing and and God is very much present in the midst of that.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. That’s so good. I appreciate that. And I know he just even in my own family. Like we, my uncle tells, he had a really ah terrible internal, um, you know, disease, condition. And he was really pressing in with the Lord asking for healing. And he ended up at a church where like the pastor, you know, they were praying for him like over a bunch of time. And then eventually the pastor literally unrolled the like, so let’s talk about the unacknowledged, the unforgiven sin in your life. Because we’ve been praying about this for a long time and it hasn’t been healed and what, you know, what it’s got to be a problem with you. And and literally my uncle like walked out of the church that day and it was decades was like, you know, because of that. And this is the kind of thing that we’re, this is the weight that we’re carrying as we engage with students, with people around these issues. We’ve got to be very careful with the language we use.

Will Hutcherson — We do. We do. We got to guard and have good theology. I mean…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s bad.

…because I hear those kinds of things all the time and I’m like, what about Paul’s thorn?

Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.

Will Hutcherson — How do you resolve that? You know?

Rich Birch — Yes, yes, no, absolutely. Well, this has been good. Well I know there’s a ton we could talk about here. And I know, like I say, I know there’s lots of people that are leaning in asking questions, but I actually do want to get to a resource that I think would be really helpful for ah leaders that are listening in today.

Rich Birch — You’ve written a couple of books, but one of them particular is called Seen: Despair and Anxiety in Kids and Teenagers and the Power of Connection. I bumped into this book and I thought, man, this would be great for leaders. It could be a great tool for maybe, maybe you’re a senior leader listening in and you’re like, Man, what if I should read this with my student ministry team or with my kids ministry team? We could kind of go through it together, help us try to cultivate a more you know positive environment on this front. But tell me about this book. What were you thinking when you ah put this together?

Will Hutcherson — Yeah. So Dr. Chinwé and I wrote this ah specifically because of the youth mental health crisis.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Will Hutcherson — But these principles apply regardless of the relationship. So whether it’s a parent to a child relationship or a small group leader to a child, or even just a leader to a staff member you know, or pastor to a staff member or pastor to an adult. Because they’re connection tools and there’s really a lot of science and research behind how God wired our brains and how connection asked believe actually influences the brain towards healing, especially when they’re facing mental health challenges.

Will Hutcherson — So I’ve actually had a few few senior leaders actually ask me to rewrite Seen even in the context of leadership because it’s easily applied to leadership. So…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah, the the principles are are very simple to understand, but it’s really ah practical connection tools and how those connection tools will move the brain towards healing

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. So good. I also loved as a just as ah a sidebar—this caught my eye as an author—I love that you right up front you said a two hour read to build strong relationship with your kid or a teenager.

Will Hutcherson — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Which is wonderful. Like I love that. You’re calling out like, hey, you’re not going to get swamped by this book, like, which again, you know, a team member, you could give this to your team and say, hey, we’re going to read this next week. You you can find the time in the next week for us to, you know, to read that.

Rich Birch — Any um you know kind of reaction or response as you’ve had this book out there you know that has been particularly encouraging? Any stories of like, oh, it’s been kind of cool how this tool has been used by you know churches or people or individuals over the years?

Will Hutcherson — Yeah, I’ve been, I mean, surprised and shocked at how much um this book has helped so many parents, ah small group leaders, youth pastors. We get stories nearly every week…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Will Hutcherson — …from somebody who says, hey, this changed my parenting. Hey, this changed the way that I led. It changed the way that I connected with my kids.

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — And it’s ah you know I don’t think Seen is necessarily something that people read and it’s like, oh wow…

Rich Birch — Right.

Will Hutcherson — …this is like revolutionary. But I think what people enjoy about what we did is we made the neuroscience really simple.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Will Hutcherson — In fact, almost almost too simple where sometimes I apologize to the smart people. I’m like, I’m sorry.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Will Hutcherson — I made it, you know, we made it this simple, but, um, but we wanted like the average person to be able to read it and… Let me redo that. We wanted the average person to be able to read it and read it within two hours, you know, very quickly. And ah be able to process the information and apply it to their life right away.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so great. This is fantastic. Well, just as we wrap up today’s ah episode, anything else you want to share just as we we close out today’s conversation?

Will Hutcherson — No, thank you so much for what you do. Thanks for empowering leaders and helping leaders to to lead this church.

Rich Birch — Appreciate that. Thanks so much, Will. If people want to track with you, ah kind of connect with your ministry, where do we want to send them online?

Will Hutcherson — Yeah, you can go to willhutch.com and that’ll kind of direct you in any direction you like. We have a couple of books, like I said, that we have and then courses and you can reach out to me there.

Rich Birch — Nice. Thanks so much, Will. Really appreciate you being on the show today. Thank you.

**Rethinking Your Kids’ Ministry Spaces: Aaron Stanski with Practical Tips for Church Leaders** Oct 17, 2024

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with return guest **Aaron Stanski**, the founder and CEO of **Risepointe**. They provide creative design solutions so that your church’s mission isn’t held back by its building.

Is your kids’ ministry space feeling tired? Churches often take more design risks with kids’ environments through use of color or theming, but that also means they age faster than spaces for adults do. Tune in to learn how you can improve your kids’ spaces and make a positive first impression with your guests.

**The first impression.** // Kids’ spaces are often the first point of contact for new families visiting a church. While adults can tolerate less-than-ideal conditions, children require environments that are engaging, safe, and conducive to both learning and play. A well-designed children’s space can significantly influence a family’s decision to return to a church.

**Address security.** // Churches need to strike a balance between creating a secure environment and maintaining an inviting atmosphere. The biggest risk is something happening internally at your church. While a large part of security is making sure volunteers are screened and trained properly, there are steps you can take to improve your environment too. For example, security can start at the kid’s check-in area, but then you can open up the space past that. The key is making sure you have good transparency in and out of kids’ spaces, you’re using security cameras, and eliminating blind corners around your church.

**Flexible kids’ spaces.** // Creating large, flexible spaces that can accommodate various activities and age groups is a growing trend in children’s ministry design. Design kids’ environments that can be easily adapted for different types of programming, such as worship, games, and small group discussions. Flexible spaces also allow for more efficient use of volunteers, as they can be reconfigured to meet the needs of different activities. Ensure that larger areas have proper acoustic management to maintain an environment conducive to learning and interaction.

**Design for children’s needs.** // Consider the wide range of needs for the kids coming into your church. What are they walking into church with? How are you providing them spaces to play and get their energy out? Where are you providing them a place to sit down and learn about Jesus? Create spaces that are inclusive and accessible for children with special needs. Include sensory rooms or quiet areas for children who may feel overwhelmed. Reducing stimuli in kids’ spaces and providing calming areas allows children to retreat if they need a break from the main activities. Ensure that all children have opportunities to engage in play and learning, regardless of their abilities.

**Design for parents and volunteers too.** // Make it easy for parents to navigate the kids’ space with clear pathways and signage. Providing a lobby outside the kids’ area can encourage parents to slow down and connect. Considering volunteers is important when designing children’s space as well. Include dedicated areas for them to store materials, prepare for activities, take breaks, and securely leave their personal belongings.

**Today’s design trends.** // Gone are the days of having over-the-top, boldly themed kids’ areas. We live in an overstimulated world and kids can easily get overwhelmed. Today’s designs are trending towards creating kids’ environments that are calming with simple geometric shapes and colors, bringing down too much noise and color clash. Remember to create environments that help kids feel like they’re maturing towards the next phase in their lives.

**Needs Analysis.** // Risepointe offers the Needs Analysis for churches, where they come on site to take a look at your entire facility. They meet with your team and go through fun exercises to get a sense of who you are as a church and what your ministry DNA is like. They then work to align your facility to your mission and vision by drawing up plans detailing how your ministry spaces could be altered.

**NEXT STEPS // Risepointe Collection, V.25**

Grab *Risepointe Collection, V.25*, a fun and FREE resource for churches that highlights the latest design trends, and will help you freshen up your kids’ spaces. Visit www.risepointe.com and scroll to the bottom of the page to download it.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Man, I’m super excited that you’re tuned in today. We’ve got a return guest today. And you know, when we have a return guest, it means because this person got so much good stuff to say that we cannot contain them to a single episode. And that is so true. We’ve got Aaron Stanski today. He is the founder and CEO of Risepointe with 15 plus years experience of church design, leadership, project management experience. If you don’t know Risepointe, where have you been? You’re living under a rock.

Rich Birch — They provide ah creative design solutions to really remove the lids. I love their help because they really are helping churches figure out how do we keep growing ah to really prevent growth in their ministry. Their church architects and designers have years of experience working in churches, schools, nonprofits, really fantastic people doing interior design, graphic design, branding, lots of stuff to really help churches like yours. Aaron, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming back on.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, it’s great to be here, Rich. Thanks for having me.

Rich Birch — Yeah, i’m you know it’s gonna be good, I’m looking forward to to talking. You know we’ve had you on in the past, we’ve had a couple different episodes. One about a campus opening that you had had to you know a part of, and the impact that had happened and kind of a general design stuff. And I was talking to Aaron, I said, man, I’d love to have you come back on, because you might not know friends, but a part of what I do is actually I’ll visit churches, I do this, it’s kind of like secret shopper, but it’s not secret. I’ll end up in churches. And I feel like when I’m in the churches in churches all the time, I’m walking around kids’ spaces and I’m like, they feel tired. They and I um… And so I’m, frankly, I’m using Aaron here…

Aaron Stanski — Sure.

Rich Birch — …to try to um um trying to suck the brain information or information out of his brain to learn about kids in spaces. Why are kids spaces so important to churches? Maybe let’s just start there. What why should we even be worrying about that part of what we do?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, it’s super important, especially for guests and stuff like that who are checking out your church for the first time. I mean, we can put up with a lot as adults, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — I mean, we can like make excuses for things, like we can find a chair that’s a little bit more comfortable or in a place that we can hear a little bit better or something like that. But for our kids, right, like we’re dropping them off, we’re handing them to someone. We really just want to make sure they’re gonna they’re safe, they’re going to be taken care of. We want to make sure they’re going to have fun, they’re not going to be bored. And so really some of those first impression pieces, I mean, it goes a long way for guests in walking into those environments.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s it’s so true. And you know so many churches I talk to when they say, hey, our target is to reach a 32 year old couple, or a 32 year old male, or a 35 year old whoever…

Aaron Stanski — Right.

Rich Birch — …you know those people have kids and they’re thinking about kids…

Aaron Stanski — Right.

Rich Birch — …and they’re wrestling through, hey, what what does that look like? And so this space is, um yeah, it’s critically important. Well, I’d love to, if you’re if you’re up for it…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …to maybe walk through some of the, low hanging fruit, you know, think about maybe we’re a church of a thousand people and I’m, you know, I might wander around my space. Are there some things that I should be thinking about ah that really maybe I should be improving on in my, you know, in my kid’s space?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, and I think what happens a lot of times too, right, is we take some design risks with kids spaces. We introduce lots of color, ah like lots of theming, or, you know, I’ve seen a lot of bad murals and stuff like that painted in churches. And so because we take those risks, our kids ministry spaces actually age faster than a lot of our adult spaces do.

Rich Birch — Yes. Oh, that’s good. That’s good.
Aaron Stanski — And so that’s why that’s why you’re feeling that way, Rich, when you walk in.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — It’s like, man, why does it feel tired?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — And it’s like, well, we took some big risks and some of those things trended out very quickly. But yeah, I mean, I came up with a list of things here that I’ve just seen lots of churches really kind of go all in on to make sure their kids’ ministry is aligned with their mission and vision and helping them grow.

Aaron Stanski — The first thing that like every church talks about that is security, right? It’s always on the top of the list. You know we don’t, we don’t want security at the expense of like really great space. Right? Like we don’t want it to be so secure that it’s creepy. So we’ve seen lots of churches say, hey, we really want to make the entry points right behind ah sort of that kid’s check-in area. That’s where we want our security to start.

Aaron Stanski — But then we really want to open up the interior spaces, allow lots of visual connection between all of those, um oversize the rooms, make sure the parents feel really comfortable kind of coming in and out of all of those environments. And that’s always security is always number one on the list.

Rich Birch — What how do we balance out those two? It feels like, it’s almost like they’re two contradictory ideas. One is like, you want it to feel secure…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …but then the other is, I want it to feel welcoming and engaging. And are there kind of some things we should, I like what you said there even about like oversizing the space a little bit, making sure, but are there other things we should be thinking about as we look at our space?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, ah you know the biggest risk is you know always something happening internally at your church. And so ah you know when we when we think about security, we’re talking about like making sure we don’t have any blind corners, ah using security cameras, and really like making sure we have good transparency in and out of all of those spaces.

Aaron Stanski — And I’m sure you get into this, Rich. I mean, that’s just the architecture. That’s just 5% of what security means. The rest of it is making sure our volunteers are trained, they’re screened, that we are always have two adults in the classroom at the same time and stuff.

Aaron Stanski — But from a design perspective, like that’s really what it’s about, making sure all those spaces are are open and connected and transparent as as as we can make it. And then making sure people aren’t back there who shouldn’t be.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Aaron Stanski — So having some security at the check-in spots to to provide that.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. I know I remember years ago I was visiting a name brand church that you you all would know and I, you know, I’ve said this to a bunch of leaders over there. I’ve I’ve retold this this story. i I just happened to be there and I was, you know, I was a leader from a church and I um was just poking around and was kind of looking at stuff and trying to see, you know. And then I was like, well, let’s go take a look at the kid’s space. And I like, and it was in between services, but like their security guy, he, he totally picked me out of a crowd.

Rich Birch — Like he comes up. He was friendly. He was a guy with a thick neck, uh, super friendly, but was like, Hey, sir, so good to see you. How can I help you today? And, uh, which I loved.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — I was like, listen, if I’m, if I’m a parent…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and you know, the, you know, that they he identified quickly you’re, you’re a person by your, with no kids and you’re looking around, you look kind of like.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, you don’t want creepy Rich ah back in your kids ministry area.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Guy with no hair. Yeah, but that’s to say, you know, obviously the people side of that is a big, you know, this the physical space can do so much, but the the the people is ah is a big place.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Okay, so security was first on your list. What what else were you thinking about?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, another trend that we’re really seeing in kids ministry today is like large, flexible spaces. So, you know, it doesn’t matter if you’re running a couple hundred on a Sunday or a couple thousand. We’re seeing lots of churches say, hey, let’s open up some of these smaller classrooms and let’s actually create some of these larger, more flexible environments for ah either more kids or multiple age groups. And so…

Rich Birch — Really? Interesting.

Aaron Stanski — …it opens it up. There’s there’s less volunteers required because then you can go, you know, one volunteer per smaller group of kids. It gives you some more flexibility with things, for like worship, group worship, and games, and crafts, and even small group times. And so we’re seeing, we’re really seeing that as a trend as well as like providing some of those larger environments.

Rich Birch — How do we, so that’s, let’s talk a little bit about that. So I was in a church recently where, um, literally they’re asking that question. And they do have quite large open spaces, but their concern, then they were thinking about going in the opposite direction. They were like, Oh, like maybe we’ll close some of these in, because they were like, when we get an, you know, a hundred kids in this room, it, man, it’s loud.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Is there stuff we can do to treat those spaces…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …to, you know, or or should be thinking about treating those spaces to try to make them so they’re not crazy?
Aaron Stanski — Yeah you’re You’re jumping down to the bottom of my list.
Rich Birch — Oh, I’m so sorry.
Aaron Stanski — No, no, that’s acoustics is a big deal, right? Because kids are loud.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Aaron Stanski — And so how do we trap the sound and make spaces indoors…

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — …that are conducive to play, but still feel good for parents and volunteers and it feels like it’s under control? So there’s a few products and stuff that we use quite often to really make those larger spaces feel that way. And then ah we have done quite a bit with ah like movable partitions and some things that can fold out from the walls…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Aaron Stanski — …that provide acoustic separation when you go into small group time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — I’m a small group leader. I have sixth grade boys ah in my small group at church.

Rich Birch — They’re very quiet, very quiet.

Aaron Stanski — And so trying to keep 11 sixth grade boys like on task, it’s important.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Aaron Stanski — So, you know, where where we meet, ah you know, is it helpful for that or is it something that kind of hurts ministry?

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. I love that. Good for you being a volunteer there.
Aaron Stanski — Oh, yeah, they, yeah yeah, they take the energy out of me. I mean, they they they run me ragged, that’s for sure.

Rich Birch — No, that’s good. I like it. You’re a, you know, you you speak not just as an architect, but as a, as an operator as well.

Aaron Stanski — That’s right. Put me in, coach. I’m ready. I’m ready to go.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rich Birch — All right. That’s great. What else should we think? So large, so we’ve got security, we’ve got these kinds of large flexible spaces. What else should we be thinking about?
Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, and another big trend that we’re seeing is, I mean, churches that are growing that are really getting after it are addressing a really wide range of needs for their kids.

Rich Birch — Oh, so good. Yep.

Aaron Stanski — And so, I mean, every kid is unique, right? And so when we think about, man, what are they walking into church with, right? Like, what is their home life like? Like, what are ah What are their emotional needs, their spiritual needs, and how do we address that? How do we pay attention to all of those things?

Aaron Stanski — And so, I mean, we see a big trend in addressing special needs as well across a wide range of spectrums. And so, um whether that’s calming areas or break spaces, or even you know churches that are having dedicated environments for special needs, ah we see that as ah you know as a big trend, as well as just realizing, hey, kids need to be kids. So how are we like providing them space to play? And providing them space to like get some energy out and really kind of learn in tactile ways? As well as, you know, like we mentioned with the acoustics, a place for them to sit down and have a conversation about Jesus and what that means in their life. So, yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. We’ve had a number of conversations um about, you know, really creating accessible opportunities for kids. We did a podcast podcast back with Kerri-Ann Hayes. That was maybe two months ago. And then…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, that was a great one.

Rich Birch — …ah Gail yeah, and then Gail Ewins or Ewell on, you know, really trying to create a church that’s that’s inclusive. And I would agree, this is one of those areas where I would say expectations have shifted in the church world , um definitely from when I started serving years ago, that um you know that the creating space whether and and having a team of people who are serving kids of a wide variety of backgrounds um and trying to figure out how to integrate them into or what that looks like, really asking that question, and It looks different in different places…

Aaron Stanski — That’s right.

Rich Birch — …but is um is critically important. Are you seeing um You know, when you think about that kind of chill space, are there, you know, rules of thumb on the kind of percentage of space that people are dedicating to that? Like, is it like a, you know, or or how do you think about that chill space thing? Or is that not really maybe developed even into a ah rule of thumb yet?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, it’s not it hasn’t really developed like that far yet. I think um more often than not, it’s it’s letting the parents know that we’re listening, that we’re caring, um that we’re capable and ready to address a need.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — If a child is like, wow, this is just way too much stimulus. I’m really struggling emotionally here. We have a plan to be able to kind of like take them, ah allow them to like sit down, refocus, and then kind of rejoin the group. So it doesn’t take up a lot of space for the kids who are like participating in regular church ministry, but just might need some of that chill space. For churches that are like really kind of getting into like more advanced special needs, it does require dedicated space. You do have to have volunteers that are trained a little bit more ah to be able to address some of those needs. But we I mean, we see it a lot. We see parents like asking for ah those types of things you know from their church.

Rich Birch — Yeah, and this this, like I’ve said to a lot of churches, if they don’t have a ministry or space like this, and they’re a church of a thousand, let’s say, if they made it without this kind of thing, I will say, listen, you you, and you know, often I’m talking to like an executive pastor or lead pastor. And I’m like, talk to your kids ministry people. I bet you that they have families who are asking for this; that this is a part of the conversation that’s already there.

Rich Birch — And you know for my seat, I think it’s a table stakes kind of thing. It’s like, we’ve we’ve got to provide this. We have to figure out, you know as the church grows. Just you’re ignoring too big of a population you know to to say, hey, we’re not going to do something on that front.

Aaron Stanski — Yep.

Rich Birch — You know, you you can’t just ignore that. You can’t just be like, ah, we’re gonna, you know, we’re just not gonna do that. We’re gonna leave… there’s a church across town that does that. I think, man, it’s too important to, you know, to do that, so.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, and we should talk about it on our website, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — And we should, you know, we should have that entire, you know, stream of communication ah with the parent, right, all the way throughout. And it’s ah it’s a big deal.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, let’s let’s talk about whatever, what’s what’s next on the the list.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, a few of these we could probably shoot through really quick.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Aaron Stanski — But ah like some of them end up being really important. We see a lot of churches, you know, wanting to provide some sort of like secondary lobby or gathering area for families. So sometimes that’s either like right outside the the kids area or the kids check in area or even back inside there just as a secondary place for families to to gather, some furniture, allow the kids to kind of run around and play.
Aaron Stanski — Again, you know, we’re not what we’re not trying to do is create the most efficient engine for getting parents in and out as we possibly can in a single file line. We’re trying to provide like some eddies and some places for them to like stop, connect, right?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — We want to we want our kids’ environments, like we want to resource parents. Like we want to come alongside them on this journey. And so we have to have some of those conversation places. And so we see that a lot in some of the design trends and some of the spaces that we’re creating and and designing today is trying to figure that piece out as well.

Rich Birch — Talk to me about, um, so when I’m thinking about my kids space, am I, there’s like an interesting dual, um, kind of target audience here. One is like the space for the kids, but then there’s, then there’s the, the parents. Um, and I would think the needs are different. Like there’s the actual program needs and then there’s, hey, does this space actually deal with… How do you think about, you know, that issue and how you balance those two kind of distinct groups out?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, they have to be, ah from a design perspective, they have to be considered simultaneously. You know, none of the kids are choosing to drive themselves to church either, right? Like, and so, like…

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — …the parents are the ones who are ultimately making that choice. And so understanding…

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — …like, what is it like for mom ah with a couple kids to navigate down, is this hallway like narrow? Is it Is it hard to navigate? Is it easy for her to understand where she needs to go next or what needs to happen? And so, yeah, we have to pay really close attention to that, what it’s like, you know, how are we dropping off? Are we inviting the parents into the classroom to pick up, and doing the security check on the way out? Or are we doing that at the door? And, you know, how do we make it as relational as we can and less transactional, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Aaron Stanski — And so like that’s ah that’s a big part of it. And so we’re designing for the kids. That’s super important because we want them to be like, that was fun.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Aaron Stanski — I learned something about Jesus. I want to go back.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Aaron Stanski — We have to design for the parents because like they’re like navigating it and they’re trusting us with their kids. And then I’d say the third thing we have to is we have to um design it for the volunteers as well.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Aaron Stanski — You know, you know, people do ministry, not buildings.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — And so, you know, those volunteers, they’re coming in early, and they’re, you know, they’re staying after, they’re taking care of our kids, like they’re loving on them. So how do we set them up for success? What kind of spaces do they need? Do they need a secure area, you know, to be able to drop off their stuff on Sunday and and be able to grab a cup of coffee or something? How are we creating those types of environments?

Aaron Stanski — And so we see churches like having dedicated volunteer space um at the at the ministry level. We see them paying really close attention to how volunteers interact with storage and all their supplies, right? We want it to be a great experience for those volunteers…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Aaron Stanski — …so they can spend more time loving on the kids and less time you know fighting with ah storage or setup or any of those things.

Rich Birch — Yeah, this this is, so I totally echo what you’re saying there for sure. That’s like a hearty Amen. There’s like an interesting connection between I think a lot of times when we’re so when we sit down and design, we’re thinking about like on the church side rather than, you know, on your side of the table as a professional. I’m thinking about where are the kids going to check in? What is the program space? But then there are things that can get squeezed out of our program really quickly. One of them is volunteer space because it’s like, we don’t think about that as like, uh, that’s not worth, you know, it’s like, ah it’s a support area, but it’s a critically critical support area.

Aaron Stanski — That’s right.

Rich Birch — If it’s done well, people will love it. They’ll be like, this is amazing. Like what it’s a, make it a great experience. I got a place to put my purse, all that. It it feels great.

Rich Birch — And then the same on the storage issue. It’s like that gets squeezed in so many of these projects. Cause it’s like, yeah, but I need more space for kids to sit. But it’s like, but if we don’t have any place to put the googly eyes, it will not matter. You know, when they, you know…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …they’ll have a place to sit, but they won’t be able to do anything. Or it’ll be a hassle for, you know, for your team.

Rich Birch — So that’s one of the reasons why partnering with Risepointe when you’re thinking about this, or really thinking about redesigning, I think is critically important. Because there’s some of those kind of secondary, but but critically important, not secondary in the like, it’s not so important. It’s like it’s like a support area. It can be easy to overlook that.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Can we talk about bathrooms, washrooms, toilets? I like I feel like I’ve spent a lot of time in my ministry career thinking about sinks. What’s the…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — It feels like this is an area that it it is we know, and I don’t want to get into all the issues around this, but we know like in schools, it’s a real issue that these are like have become like a hotbed. How do we do this? What’s the kind of state of the art on that front? What should we be thinking about in kids areas for bathrooms?
Aaron Stanski — Yeah, so I mean, i’ll I’ll skip the obvious, right? Like you got to have bathrooms for kids and stuff like that. I mean, you know lots of ministries do like do a great job. We can put a large bathroom bank inside the secure area for elementary kids to kind of use. I would say a design trend that we’re seeing ah is utilizing like single occupancy toilet banks.

Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.

Aaron Stanski — And so like the way that’s helpful, especially for the younger kids, is a volunteer can send a younger kid into like a single occupancy, like toilet stall. They can close the door and use the bathroom and then they can come out and we can help them wash their hands at the sink and stuff. And so rather than having two adults go in there into a larger bathroom bank or a bunch of kids go into a larger bathroom bank and mess around, um we’re just seeing it. It’s easier to manage. It’s safer for the volunteers. It’s cleaner for the younger kids.

Aaron Stanski — And so we’re really seeing that as a design trend, um you know especially for like the preschool age group, kindergarten age group. And then you know it takes up less square footage. And so there’s some less you know there’s some cost savings and stuff there. But we’re seeing a lot of churches kind of go in that direction.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. we did a We did a building years ago, this is 15 years ago, where we did, in all of our preschool spaces, we did like a dedicated restroom um you know for each each one of those. And it was right in the room, which was was great.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, because then a teacher can just send the kid in, right…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Aaron Stanski — …and they can use the restroom and come out. I think if you have a room of 100 kids…

Rich Birch —Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — …like you mentioned, right…

Rich Birch —Yes.

Aaron Stanski — …well, you can put dedicated boys and girls restrooms with like, let’s say two girls and two boys, but then like they have to just kind of go in there by themselves. And are there other people? And you got to check, and you’ve got to go in there with two adults, right, and all of those things.

Aaron Stanski — Well, instead of doing those two restroom banks, you could just do three stalls or four stalls. And a and a sink on the outside, and you you reduce all of those problems that you get with sort of that traditional bathroom.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good. As as crazy as it sounds, man, critically important.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch —Restrooms are a big deal in, you know, in these spaces, important to think about for sure.

Rich Birch — What about, um it talk me through, so I was in a ah church recently in the last couple months where they’re redoing their kid’s space. And they have on the walls, like this floor to ceiling, hand done, like drawing stuff, cartoons, which like looks great. And they were reflecting the internal leadership stuff of, there was a person on staff that did that and then now they want to change it. And there’s all these interesting conversations around that. So we’ll ignore that for a minute. But but what they were saying, what they wanted to go to was something that was less stimulating. It was less kind of like, it was, it was like, they felt like they’ve overshot, you know, it’s kind of like, and some of it, I think it’s just the style has changed…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …but like, hey, they they overshot. It was kind of too stimulating. What’s the balance there? How do we, how do we have environments that are fun? We don’t want it to look like a school. We wanted to walk in and it’d be like…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …this is something great. But we also, you know, we don’t want it to be so bonkers that it’s hard for, for kids to focus.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, I think gone are the days where, you know, we’re having these huge themed kids areas, and and let’s kind of taking it up over the top. Most of the time, you know, kids, I mean, like us, I mean, we we just live in an overstimulated world, um you know, whether it’s screens or, you know, technology or any of those things.

Aaron Stanski — And so a lot of times we’re trying to create kids environments that are calming, ah that are you know that reduce some of that stimuli. And ah so I’d say you know we’re we’re moving more towards you know geometric shapes and colors, vinyl graphics, and things like that. And and so we’re trying to kind of bring down ah you know, like too much noise, that kind of gets back to what the we said with the acoustics. And same thing with too much color clash, too too much of that that over- overstimulating idea.

Aaron Stanski — And I think that kind of leads into you know sort of the next thing that ah that we’re seeing is we’re really kind of trying to design up ah for a lot of kids ministries. And so um you know we’ve been doing a lot with you know what we would consider pre-teen ministry, right? So how do we ah how do we make the fourth and fifth grade environment feel like it’s a middle school environment? Right?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — How do wehow do we create a space for them that’s separate from the kindergartners that feels like it’s something that’s elevated. And then same thing with middle school, right? Like we’re designing, you know, middle school environments to feel more like high school environments. And we’re designing high school environments to feel more like adult, right? And so we’re kind of designing up ah in a lot of those trends to kind of help those kids, you know, feel like they’re maturing towards something. And we see that as a huge trend, especially as you get up into student ministry spaces.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s a ah, yeah, you can see that where, even just programmatically, there’s a lot of churches that are doing like Club 56…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …and it’s like a fifth grade, sixth grade kind of thing. It’s like a interesting kind of in between.

Rich Birch — That got me thinking about kind of a related issue, which is um, the balance of dedicated kids space versus making, designing these spaces in a way that they can be used for other things during the week.

Aaron Stanski — Sure.

Rich Birch — You know, the kind of extreme example is like the men’s group doesn’t want to meet in the the fluffy kingdom, you know, you know…

Aaron Stanski — That’s true.

Rich Birch — …preschool space or whatever, right? They’re like, it’s a great room, but like, we’re not, we’re not meeting in there. Um, you know, ah how do you think about that?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Or if there’s some kind of interesting ways around that?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Well, I mean, if you if you design a space for all things, it’ll be really boring, right? I mean, it should be a gray room with like big storage closets and stuff.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Aaron Stanski — So at some point, we do have to pick who is going to win, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Aaron Stanski — Are are the fluffy bunnies gonna win or is the men’s group gonna win? And so what I’d say is, you know, for spaces that we know are going to be multi-purpose, we’re gonna we’re going to take some intentional design choices and we’re gonna kind of put those in and throughout.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Aaron Stanski — So we’re still gonna have the accent colors, we’re still gonna have those sorts of things. But if we have enough storage, then we can move a lot of those kids things out of the way and sort of reset that room. If we have the right technology in the room, that can play a big role. And so, you know, trying to identify those spaces that we want to be ah used a lot more multi-purpose and adding some things to of them ah goes a long way in helping that.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — But I’d I’d say you have to pick a winner.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. That’s good advice. Yeah

Aaron Stanski — Like you have to pick like on Sundays, like we want this to knock it out of the park for a mom who’s dropping off her second grader.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — Well, then let’s let’s knock it out of the park and ah you know, the men’s group, we’ll figure it out. We’re good.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. That’s even good kind of practical advice around like, hey, we’re you might it might think like you can get or make everybody happy, but that just isn’t going to happen.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Like, it’s just not going to take place. And so, you know, let’s let’s pick one. There is no, you know, it’s like there’s no one room to rule them all. This is the ideal room that will be, you know, that’s just not going to happen. So let’s start with, OK, what’s the primary use and and how do we go from there

Rich Birch — You know, when i’ve when you’ve been talking today, it’s got me thinking about it. I know you have a solution where you’ll come actually on site at a church and help us think through these issues. I know there’s leaders that are listening in today, and I didn’t tell you this ahead of time, so but if you could tell me about that Needs Analysis.

Aaron Stanski — Sure.

Rich Birch — What is that? Because I feel like this is one of those things. We’ve raised a bunch of questions. I’m thinking about our kid space, and I’m a little bit overwhelmed, but i’d I’d love to get your team’s help. What does that look like?

Aaron Stanski — Yeah. So most churches that reach out to Risepointe, I mean like they’re just not sure. Like ah should we do we have to demo out all of the kids space? Do we need to build new kids space? Like is our kids space even big enough? You know, they have lots of questions. And so most churches, yeah I mean they bring us on site to do a Needs Analysis. And that’s where we’re taking a look at your entire facility. We meet with you know your team for an entire day. We walk through some really fun exercises about who you are as a church and your DNA and what it’s like to do ministry, specifically where God has put your church.

Aaron Stanski — Um, and then we, yeah, we take a look at the entire facility. We draw it all up in, uh, in our AutoCAD program. And, and we sort of come back to you and say, Hey, based on what you told us and the trends that we’re seeing and and how other churches are using their space, here here’s a list of things that you would have to do in order to align your facility to your mission and vision that God’s given your church.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Aaron Stanski — And so, yeah, that might be, Hey, we think you need a ah light renovation of your kid’s space. And so we we’ve done all the math and all the square footage. And so here’s what it would cost to do that. And it might be, hey, you need to you know fix some things on the exterior to help people understand where the entrance is. Or ah you know you know might think about moving some things around.

Aaron Stanski — We did this recently ah with a church and um they were out of kid space. Kids was packed. And I mean, packed.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Aaron Stanski — And the auditorium was about 60% full. So they still had some room there.

Rich Birch — Oh, interesting.

Aaron Stanski — But they were trying to figure it out. And so we did the whole Needs Analysis with them. It was a great day. Got to meet their entire staff. And then I met with the pastor at the end. And I said, hey, man, I don’t i don’t know how tied you are ah to junior highers meeting on Sunday morning. But they also meet on Wednesday nights and they have a space that’s really it was a great size space.
Aaron Stanski — And I’m like, for a season, if you ask those junior highers to either sit with their parents in church or even better, volunteer in kids ministry on a Sunday morning, ah you would free up that space for fourth and fifth graders. And then if you moved the rest of your kids around. And so we did the math. They’re running ah they’re running three services on a weekend. They could add 500 people in attendance at their church…

Rich Birch — Wow.

Aaron Stanski — …by simply making that shift and moving those things around.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Aaron Stanski — Now, I’m not sure like that’s that’s what they want to do or if that’s what’s best for their church or their programming. But the Needs Analysis is meant to evaluate all of those types of things and say, man, are we using our space the best we can? And is there anything we should do ah to help it improve?

Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing. That I love that. Like that, what a great example. And you know, this is the part of what I love about you, Aaron, and your team is it’s like. You could have easily said, you well, you need to build a whole new thing. And like, here’s all that stuff.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — And like, it’s going to cost you a gajillion dollars. Uh, but you’re like, Hey, before that…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …what if we did this? Um, this might be an interesting, uh, middle stuff. I love that. You can obviously reach out to, uh, Risepointe. We’ll put a link in the show, show notes there. You also have a, um, a tool that you’re going to hand out to people. We’re going to link to it here.

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Talk to us about the, uh, The Risepointe Collection 25. Tell me about this.
Aaron Stanski — Yeah, ah ah we like to release The Risepointe Collection. This year it’s version 25. This is really just kind of what are some interior design trends that we’re seeing? What are some really hot colors and palettes? What are some of the carpets and finishes that we’re seeing that we’re really loving? How are they being applied? What are some example pictures and stuff of some churches that have applied some of these things? ah We really just kind of see it as ah as a fun resource for churches to kind of pick it up and say, hey, ah we were thinking about repainting something. ah What are some of the hot colors or what are some of the things that Risepointe’s recommending?
Aaron Stanski — So we’re gonna be ah we’re releasing that. It’s actually already already completed here. It’ll be up on our website right down at the bottom. But if you’re interested in that, yeah, go to our website. It’s risepointe.com – risepointe with an e. Scroll down to the bottom and you’ll find The Risepointe Collection, Version 25. Just click that. We’ll email that. It’s a big PDF, but we’ll email that over to you. It might be something fun for you just to kind of check out and see what see what we’re recommending and what’s what’s coming.

Rich Birch — That’s so cool. What a great tool for folks, you know, as you’re, as you’re thinking about, you know, these kinds of changes in the, in the coming year. I just love that. That’s, that’s so fantastic. Oh, Aaron, I I appreciate you. Thank you so much. I got a couple of pages of notes here, stuff to think about in in kids ministry area in areas, which I really appreciate. So is there anything else you want to say just as we wrap up today’s episode?

Aaron Stanski — No, I just say, I mean, you know ah you know, kids are the future of the church, right? And so like loving on our kids and loving on our families, and knowing that, I mean, there’s a lot of crap they’re dealing with out in the world and with schools and all of that stuff. If we can welcome them in and resource our parents and love on them and teach them about Jesus, I mean, that’s gotta be at the top of the list for why we, like why we got into ministry, right?

Rich Birch — So true.

Aaron Stanski — And so I mean, the environment plays a small role in all of that. And I i know that. But if that’s something that we can help you with, like if that’s something that we can, I mean, just give you a fresh idea on, would love to do that. So if we can help out in any way, reach out to Risepointe, um and we’ll we’ll figure it out.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. You know, and and the thing many church leaders they do, if they do renovations like this or this kind of project, they do like one in their entire career or maybe two…

Aaron Stanski — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …like that’s the, you know, the where you guys do this all day long, you know, you really should bring in ah the folks at Risepointe to help you think through this. So I can’t, I heartily endorse Aaron and his team. You really should, ah you know, talk with them. Again, we’ll have the link in the show notes, but you can also just search Risepointe with an E and find them online. Thanks so much for being here, sir. Thank you for for being on the show.
Aaron Stanski — Yeah, thanks, Rich.

**Portable Church Success: Systems that Last and Leaders that Thrive with Jeff Beachum** Oct 10, 2024

Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have **Jeff Beachum** with us. He’s part of **Portable Church Industries** (PCI), which has helped thousands of churches launch and operate successfully in mobile settings. Jeff serves as the Multiplication Specialist and Director of Marketing.

Is your church running out of capacity, but looking for ways to keep momentum growing? Are you ready to establish a presence in a new community? Tune in as Jeff walks us through how to leverage our time, capacity and money to open up more seats and send out our congregations on mission.

**The advantage of rental.** // There are only five ways a church can establish a presence in a new community: a new build, commercial buy, commercial lease, a rental, and a merge. PCI assists churches in utilizing rented spaces such as schools, community centers, and even unconventional venues like movie theaters and bars. The flexibility of a rental will allow you to reach your community more quickly and cost-effectively while you grow your congregation. By leveraging portable solutions, churches can also focus on building their capital for that next environment.

**Maintaining church culture.** // Your church has a culture that has begun to shape the expectations of the attendees. Even if you want to open another location, congregants will still expect to be a part of the same kind of church. PCI’s designers go to great lengths to design a system that maintains the DNA, culture, branding, and expectations across a church’s locations so people feel at home in a new environment.

**Handling expansion.** // When you’re stretching the limits of your current location—whether its parking, seating, kids’ space or service times—it’s time to explore the alternatives. Do you need to open another location, or move into a bigger one? Solutions can include going multisite or planting a segment of your congregation in a nearby community. Jeff recommends reaching out to PCI early on in the exploration process and getting answers to your questions sooner rather than later.

**Design process.** // The Portable Church design process begins with an in-depth consultation with your church leadership to learn about your unique culture, vision, goals and environment. This process includes discussions with the children’s team and tech team to assess operational needs. Finally Portable Church explores the venue that you’re considering. After gathering this information, PCI’s team spends time designing a custom solution that meets your church’s requirements.

**Launch weekend.** // When the product is delivered, a team from PCI travels to your church’s location, typically on a Saturday, to assist with the setup and training of your volunteers. The goal is to make the setup process as efficient as possible. Jeff notes that with the right number of volunteers, all equipment can be unloaded and set up in a remarkably short time—often in a little over an hour. After everything is torn down and put away, the team returns on Sunday morning, stepping back while your team leads the setup process. Afterwards they review what went well, what needs improvement and anything that was missing.

**NEXT STEPS // Executive Church Leader Resource Bundle**

Visit portablechurch.com/jeff for the *Executive Church Leader Resource Bundle* that will help you operationalize your vision, plus grab a $10 Starbucks eCard and a FREE zoom pre-consult opportunity with Jeff.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe***

Do you feel like your church’s facility could be preventing growth, and are you frustrated or maybe even overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your church building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that your church could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe has been there. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead your church to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Licensed all over North America, their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to help move YOUR mission forward.

**Check them out at Risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there get their FREE resource “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build”.**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. This person, if you haven’t had a chance to interact with them, ah you’re going to be blessed by leaning in and learning from this individual. You’re going to ah be encouraged and hopefully inspired to take some new steps. Excited to have Jeff Beachum with us. He is a part of an organization called Portable Church Industries. If you don’t know, Portable Church, these guys are amazing. For over 25 years they have helped literally thousands of churches, thousands and thousands of churches, launch strong in mobile settings. They designed custom solutions that are fit for every budget, every vision, and literally every venue. I’ve seen some crazy places that these kids have helped ah people launch into. They provide everything ah that really you need to launch for a mobile mobile church. This is really from an inviting worship space, kids ministry, welcome area, storage case, all the way from like sound systems to a place to put the diapers. Really is amazing. Jeff, so glad you’re here today. Thanks for being here.

Jeffrey Beachum — Oh, I’m so glad to be here. I love talking about the church and expanding it.

Rich Birch — Nice. So your title is multiplication specialist and director of marketing. Tell us what you do at PCI; kind of fill in that picture. Tell us more about PCI in general.

Jeffrey Beachum — So I got ah a variety of things in my background that I am just amazed at the way God brings it brings it all together. I never thought that what I did in my past, he could figure out and use. And marvelously, I’ve done commercial real estate appraisal work a couple of times. I’ve been a pastor for 15 years, ah marketing and sales, organizational leadership, all kinds of things.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — And God brings me to portable church industries and and sets me up really well…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jeffrey Beachum — …to hopefully understand the church, understand the kind of decisions and how hard it is to be a church leader, whether it’s a lead pastor or ah an executive pastor or a campus pastor. And to come alongside of them and help them ah sometimes figure out their strategy and sometimes just be able to help them with their strategy and get to where they want to go. So that’s really the the nuts and bolts of what I get to do. And I love my job.
Rich Birch — So good.
Jeffrey Beachum — I’ve had ah opportunities to go somewhere else, but I just love what I get to do and who I get to do it with. And so my role at PCI has has changed a little bit. I used to strictly come alongside of pastors and work with them and and getting them to where they want to go. And now they’ve asked me to, for a little while, fill in on the marketing role, which is my skill and background. So I’m just having the time of my life.
Rich Birch — That’s so good. I love, ah you’re like such an encouraging leader to interact with. I know at the times we’ve had a chance to connect over the years, I’ve been you know encouraged by you and your and your leadership. So I’m i’m hoping that, I know, that’ll rub off with folks that are listening in today.

Rich Birch — So but the we want to kind of talk, for folks that don’t know Portable Church, don’t know your organization, um I yeah I remember the first time I heard about PCI and I hadn’t reached out to anybody. And they were like, I know there’s this organization out there that like helps churches do stuff portably. And I was like, man, that is so smart because the, where we meet is a critical piece of the puzzle. And you guys have really opened up a lot of different opportunities for churches when they’re thinking about. But kind of define, when you say portable church, what does that look like? Like who are the kind of churches you’re helping? What are they, why do they come to you? What does that look like?
Jeffrey Beachum — So um in an elevator, giving my five-story elevator pitch. From the first to the second story is we help churches that are are dealing with capacity issues. Now, it might be first time launches, it might be multi-site, it might be churches that love to plant and are good at it. And we help them get into portable facilities such as a high school, any any place that can be rented—a high school, middle school, um ah elementary school, YMCAs, movie theaters. And you were talking about some of the oddest places we’ve been in. We’ve helped churches launch in bars and we’ve helped them launch in a train station, right between train tracks that are working.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s crazy.

Jeffrey Beachum — So, we can go into all kinds of situations, but we help churches go into rented spaces that helps them leverage time, um capacity, and money. If you look at the, there’s only five ways that a church can put a new presence into that community, and it’s a new build with new grass, commercial, commercial buy, commercial lease, a merge, or a rental. Those are the only five ways. And we help them do that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — The rental is we can get you in quicker, we can get you, than any of the others. We can be cheaper than all of the others.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — And we can be at least as effective or better than all of the others. And so if you’re trying to develop capital, it’s a really good idea to leverage the idea of portability, so that you can go in and while you’re already building your congregation, you can be developing your capital for that next environment, like the permanent building or the merge or the commercial build out.
Jeffrey Beachum — So that’s that’s generally what we do. We are all about capacity and giving churches a better opportunity to send. A growing church typically gets the woo and win phase down. They get the disciple and equip phase down. And they get the serve phase down. But it’s harder—and I just wrote an article about how the church needs to become uncomfortable—it’s harder to do the sending.
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Jeffrey Beachum — And so we help churches with the sending process. We make it financially feasible and leverage to whatever is next in that growth pattern.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I know in in um you know the times we’ve interacted over the years, there’s like there’s a lot of churches, if they are thinking about either church planting or maybe they’re thinking about going multi-site, they start to see some signs internally. And one of the sticking points can be like, but there’s like just some of the like logistic problems. Like, gosh, like it it is, you know, sure, we want to go into this community. um We’re sensing that we should go there. But if we dig a piece of dirt, it’s going to be X number of years to before we can make anything happen there. And I’ve got people now that I want to you know get into that location.

Rich Birch — When you think about the the helping a church go portable, what is it that you think PCI kind of brings to the table to make um that that move into, say, a school or into a movie theater. How how do you guys actually do that? Like, what does that look like? When if someone calls you up, what does that look like?

Jeffrey Beachum — Well, um, and that’s a great question because there, I’m I’m just amazed within the church, how many people don’t understand the portability concept. Um, for us, we, we have the capacity to take a, uh, a group of people, and I like to call them a momentum of people. So if a church wants to go into that community, they can heat map their congregation and, and determine what that momentum is and grow that. And that at some point they have to launch. And we can launch them into a portable facility, again, that is cheaper and faster and um really, really effective. And it’s a street to seat mentality. So we’re not just thinking that you can go there and worship in the up auditorium.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — We’re thinking that it’s a balanced system. And it cuts out the chaos that could be involved.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeffrey Beachum — It creates an opportunity for people to flow through that and leaders and volunteers to flow through that nice and evenly. The wayfinding from out on the street all the way through the building, the first impressions and having a good impression is important. And and when we talk about street to seat design and thinking, even in a school or a theater or in a YMCA, we think about the children’s area. And no family is going to come into any environment and put their child in an iffy children’s environment. They’re just not.

Rich Birch — That’s true. That is so true.

Jeffrey Beachum — And if they do, they’re going to put them in there and you won’t have their minds in the worship setting.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — Because they’re going to be thinking about what they just did to their child.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — So we we think of the holistic environment…

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Jeffrey Beachum — …paying attention to all of it, and then doing it with a level of expertise that your church requires. Your church has a culture. It has DNA. It has already begun to shape the expectations of its attenders. Now, if you take them and you want to move them over there and say, you’re still a part of us, you’re just going to be away from us. They still expect you to be that kind of a church. And so our designers go to great lengths to design something that is keeping the DNA culture, branding, ah expectations. The children could go from the sending facility to the new facility and see all the same branding…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — …and feel very comfortable with what’s there. So it’s really important that we ah design a system so your people can feel very comfortable going into those settings. And yet, usually they’re going closer to home…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — …which is another aspect of that.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Jeffrey Beachum — So we that’s what we do is we help churches who may be surprised by their growth be an alternative until they can figure out next.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — In fact, we’ve got a… surprisingly enough, we’ve got a couple of um churches now that are trying to figure a few things out. And and proposing they leave their environment, their permanent facility, and using portability as a leverage to whatever is next for them…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — …because their building became too expensive.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — So we we kind of come alongside the church, determine where they are, where they want to go, and what we can do to help.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. I love that. You know, I know, um you know, when when a a church is maybe thinking about this, when really do they reach out to you, typically? I’m I’m sure there’s like a there’s kind of a ah ah number of points along the way. They’ve either they’re they’re in like the hunch phase. They’re like, we’re thinking about either launching something or we’re wrestling with that. Is that when they should call? Or is it like they should call once we get the actual location, or should they call the week before they want to open?

Jeffrey Beachum — You know, um one of the painful things that I’ve discovered is that pastors, like all of us, we don’t know what we don’t know.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Good.

Jeffrey Beachum — And oftentimes, it will surprise us what we need to know. And so I would I would encourage you that if you are in a growth phase, and you’re at the level of growth where your, man, our our auditorium is getting filled. Our children’s space is getting filled. We need to add chairs. We need to add services. We have two services. We need to add a third. Or you could be at at a place where you’re, how about if we turn the cafe into a worship space? You know? You’re stretching the limits of what you already have. If you’re already there and God is just blessing you, then that is the time when you begin to figure out what are the alternatives.

Jeffrey Beachum — And, um, you know, then you then, and with my real estate background, it’s real easy for me to to reach back in and help pastors think through, uh, so what does it take look like for us to make this facility bigger? And do you really want to do that?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — And what does that do to the maintenance costs, the upkeep? And, uh, then you, you know, you have a Willow Creek on your hand where things change and all of a sudden you’ve got massive buildings.

Rich Birch — Right, right, right.

Jeffrey Beachum — And a lot of churches have been surprised by that.

Jeffrey Beachum — Or an option could be to begin either multisiting, or planting a piece of your congregation in a nearby ah community. And we’ve got churches now that are building a family of churches. And they all have the same DNA, culture, branding and everything except they have a different name. But so they they react differently in a community. And yet they work together because of who they are, their family.

Rich Birch — That’s cool. Yeah, that’s cool.

Jeffrey Beachum — So there’s a variety of ways to handle it. The idea is get get your answers sooner rather than later.

Jeffrey Beachum — We had, in fact, the whole reason I was hired on a PCI back in 2015, ’16 was to help lengthen the runway in which churches that were growing would engage us.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jeffrey Beachum — And so the longer the runway, the better.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So I love that. Like if you’re, if you’re in even that early hunch stage, it’s a good time to reach out. I know I’ve said that behind your back, I’ve been like, you should call the friends of PCI. They’ll jump on the phone, have a call with you. Even if it’s early stage, there’s a couple of signs I know I’ve said to churches before.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.

Rich Birch — These are like super tactical. So if you are launching a third service, you should be talking to PCI. Because the third service is not going to do what you did when you went from one to two services. You’re, you know, you, you go from, and we’ve talked about this before, you have 50% of your services. When you have two services, you have 50% of the services that are in a non-optimal service time.

Rich Birch — When you go to three, two thirds of your services in a non-optimal time. You’re not going to get the bump that you need. If you’re having to add a third service, it’s going to be just a stopgap measure. You’re going to have to think about something beyond that. That’s the first one. The second one, when I’ve heard people say, we’re having to buy extra chairs to like pile them into the back of our rooms, like to figure out how to get, you know… I’m like, you need to call PCI. Like you’re going to spend a bunch of money on chairs.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Well, like why not think about a system? Why not think about maybe we should plant? Or the other one that I’ve said before is if you’re more, if you’re big days, Christmas, Easter, Mother’s Day, if they’re more than 2X your normal attendance. So if you have more than two times your normal attendance on those days, which some churches do…

Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …um that’s an indicator of like, oh, we’re not, we’re not, ah we’re not reaching every week the normal, ah the the people we could be reaching. You’ve got like an assimilation issue and you could assimilate those people into a new location. And the more than 2X is a telltale sign that like, okay, we should we should find new ways to try to potentially launch or launch a campus or church plant or something like that.

Jeffrey Beachum — Absolutely, absolutely.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Jeffrey Beachum — Those are all the scenarios…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeffrey Beachum — …that we love to come alongside. And and I mean, those are exciting problems.

Rich Birch — Yeah, they’re good problems to have, for sure. Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yes, it’s it’s it’s difficult and you got to figure it out. You have to be innovative, you have to be creative. But that’s who God made us to be.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeffrey Beachum — And so it’s exciting to work in that environment and help churches and and really good leaders say, oh, this is great, let’s do this. And you were one of those leaders back in the day.

Rich Birch — Yeah, early on. Yeah, it’s true.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.

Rich Birch — It’s true. Yeah, like we’re kind of playing coy. Like, I don’t know about PCI, but yeah, I’ve we’ve bought a lot of systems over the years from PCI and and love what they do. In fact, I was I was joking ah earlier before we got recording, we one of our campuses, we just moved um from a movie theater, into a permanent location, like literally just open the last month. And ah that location was open for seventeen years. And in fact on the last day we had like a clean out day at the theater. I was getting like a little choked up. Because there’s these cases that were, and I’m literally taking pictures of ’em, that seventeen years later, they’re like still on the road. And yeah, they’re vacuum them out and they look brand new.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yep.

Rich Birch — Like they they, you know, all these years later continued to be ah you know well used and really helped, empowered our church to literally reach thousands of people. We wouldn’t have been able to do that. And and we’re in that location for all of those years because ah the system was designed with volunteers in mind, designed to make it easy for those people. Yeah, incredible. And and you were saying, tell me the thing you were saying about your competition, because I thought that was funny.
Jeffrey Beachum — Well, so our our um our second ah our second piece of competition against us is ourselves.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Jeffrey Beachum — Our cases have been so durable over the years.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeffrey Beachum — The shelf life of our cases is long.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — And um what so what that tells me is that churches, even when they get out of portability, I’m guessing that you guys didn’t drop your cases or leave them…

Rich Birch — No, no.

Jeffrey Beachum — …but you took them into your building.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah. And i I go into a lot of permanent facilities and I see a lot of our cases because they are just functional, and they’re very helpful. And so they just renew what’s in the case and keep it updated and they utilize the case into perpetuity.

Jeffrey Beachum — And then there are some churches that they know the cases and the system, and I don’t want to go too lightly on that thing, a system helps create continuity and clarity and gets rid of chaos.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — And that’s really important when you’re offsite. Um, but, um, those, those cases, um, can, um, because a lot of churches say, so if we’re in this three to five years, what do we do with the stuff when we’re done? Well, you can keep it and use it in your permanent facility, or you can, uh, bless it and move it on to a planter.

Rich Birch — 100 percent. Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — And again, that kills our business, but it builds the Kingdom.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve said similar things to other churches that, you know, it’s the same thing. Like I’ve, like another thing is to think, OK, well, we could we could be in this location – maybe we’re there three to five years. But our hope is that we’ll keep opening locations and you could, again not great for PCI, but great for the church.
Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.
Rich Birch — So we’re going to take that system. We’re going to pull it back in. We’re going to change a few things, maybe change some signage and stuff like that. But then we’re going to go into a whole new community because, PS, it’s portable. We can roll it somewhere else and reuse that stuff. It’s amazing.

Jeffrey Beachum — So, you know, to that point, I was going to share in a little bit, um the the Outreach Top 100 came out, and for whatever it’s worth, we did a little bit of an examination of what it was there.

Rich Birch — Yeah.
Jeffrey Beachum — And 60% of the fastest growing churches and 85% of the largest churches are multi-site.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeffrey Beachum — And over 40% of them have utilized Portable Church.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeffrey Beachum — Because it is a a good, solid system that they can leverage to get to their next.
Jeffrey Beachum — And another piece of that was, so we were curious about the longevity of our cases. How do the churches do? And so we went back to some of our previous years, 2019, and just finished this. 95.6% of the churches with Portable Church that launched in 2019 through COVID are still up and running.
Rich Birch — What? Wow, that that’s incredible. That’s amazing.
Jeffrey Beachum — 95.6, yes.
Rich Birch — Wow, that’s amazing. That well and so, friends, I think the thing that that speaks to, and this it’s like hard to articulate, but a part of what I have found, like front row seat with with a Portable Church system, is it’s designed with longevity in mind. It’s designed, at the core, one of the reasons why portable doesn’t work is you burn out your volunteers. Like it they just are not excited to show up. They’re not excited to, um, you know, to do this thing. And the thing about PCI systems is they are, they’re built for simplicity. They’re built for how do we make this easy? How do we, um, you know, not have people carry things?

Rich Birch — Like the telltale sign of your portable system is bad is you have people you know walking around with items around your spot. Well, no, like there’s put everything on wheels, figure out how to get it into a box that, you know, that rolls. And, and that…

Jeffrey Beachum — Everything’s on wheels.

Rich Birch — Yeah, and and put it into a spot that that your volunteers will actually enjoy ah you know serving. How do you guys balance in kind of your process a system where you can leverage all the good things from the thousands of churches, like the kind of shared learnings with the customization piece? How how do you how do you actually functionally do that? Because I’ve seen you do that. What does that look like?

Jeffrey Beachum — Well, it is actually a cornerstone of what we do. And churches love this piece, and that is the custom design piece, as well as the custom launch and training weekend that we have with the church where we’re actually face to face with them.
Jeffrey Beachum — But in the custom design piece, we’ve learned a lot in the last almost 30 years now. We’ve learned a ton of things. And we learn it from what the church is telling us they want to do.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — And and so if they say, yeah, we’re a little odd, so you might not be able to do that. To our guys, that’s a challenge. And they come back. And and that actually…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — …was one of the catalysts for us working with a um ah TV screen, LED wall.

Rich Birch — Oh, LED walls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Jeffrey Beachum — So we worked with ah a company that produces LED walls. And we they helped us design a portable LED wall.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jeffrey Beachum — And so we are able to go into many environments that are light rich, which is fine, but we’re able to help them instead of throwing a video, we can actually use LED walls and that’s helpful. Many times we’ll say, ah you don’t want the expense of an LED wall, but then there are churches that that’s who they are. And that’s the quality that they want to have.

Jeffrey Beachum — So our design process is we we come in, and we we spend a day with you in your sending church. And that gives us the idea to visually see what your church is like. We talk to the the lead team and say, why on earth do you think God wants you to create another church? You know? What is your vision? What are you trying to do?
Jeffrey Beachum — And then we talked to the kids environment, the directors and ask them, so what are you trying to do, so we see what it looks like, so we can see the branding and the process. The tech team, you know, what’s the environment like when people come into worship? What do you want them to feel?

Rich Birch — Right. Love it.

Jeffrey Beachum — What do they see? Who do they touch? All of those kind of things. And we take all of that information. And then they show us the venue that they’re looking at.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — And we apply all of that together with them in the venue. And we say, here’s here’s what we see this becoming you by utilizing these pieces and this function and flow and these different pieces of who you are.
Jeffrey Beachum — So our guide will take all that on the first day, spend a whole day ah up in a hotel room, and he designs. And then on the third day, we present back to them what we think we heard them say.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Jeffrey Beachum — And we say, you told us that you would like your environments to look like this, that your price point is this, that your goals are these, and this facility gives you A, B, and C, and we can put that together.

Jeffrey Beachum — And then from there, it’s just a matter of them fine tuning what they told us and us what we heard. And then when they pull the trigger, it’s usually, well, back in the day when supply chains were friendly, it could have been 10 weeks. But now it’s 12-ish weeks.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — 12 weeks later, we’re building a custom product to deliver to them in the weekend.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yep. Yeah, it’s amazing.

Jeffrey Beachum — So that’s our process.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s incredible. And again, having seen that up front, I love the work that PCI does to really try to understand. It’s funny, I’ve had telling a little secret behind your back. I’ve sometimes had people say like, you know, they they’re like, oh, I’m so nervous. Like, I don’t know. It’s so it’s like they feel like they’re in this relationship. Like sometimes with vendors, you’re like, you don’t want to tell them everything. I’m like, tell them everything. Like, be super clear the more clear you can be up front that you’ll you’ll end up with a system that’s closer to. And that that gets back to like scale of like how much money do you want to spend. And like you know what what kind of restrictions do you have. Like we do not want, we want this system to be able to set up in x amount of time with x number of people, all that kind of stuff so that you know that that our our friends at PCI can ultimately figure out how to get all that and make that happen. And they’re they like the constraint. They like the like help us understand the way to do that.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Talk to me about Launch Weekend because it’s not just that you build stuff and then you FedEx it to our house um or to our you know office. What what happens on the kind of Launch Weekend training weekends?

Jeffrey Beachum — So let me make one distinction, then I go to launch weekend.
Rich Birch — Yep.
Jeffrey Beachum — You said something, and you keep doing that. So um I I personally don’t like “vendor”…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Jeffrey Beachum — Because, and it’s not not anything I have to do with you.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeffrey Beachum — But i for my whole career, I’ve occasionally been a vendor. And I know what that is.
Rich Birch — Yes.

Jeffrey Beachum — But at PCI…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — …everybody at our facility, it has the heart to be with every church that we work with…

Rich Birch — That’s 100% true.

Jeffrey Beachum — …and what they’re trying to do. We we our main metric is how many open seats how many seats can we open up for the hearing of the gospel?
Rich Birch — Yeah, so good.

Jeffrey Beachum — You know? So we open up seats at the sending campus and the new campus.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jeffrey Beachum — So anyway, we love to be a partner, not necessarily a vendor, but I get ya.

Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah, definitely.

Jeffrey Beachum — So now launch weekend is very exciting because it’s like a vision becoming a reality. And we, on launch weekend, we fly in to wherever you are. And there’s a team of usually two to four of us, depending on the size and what we need to do. And then our, before we fly in, your system has been shipped, either by trailer or by freight to the site.
Jeffrey Beachum — And it’s in trailers. Everything is in trailers. And I could talk to you offline about that. But your trailer or trailers show up. And we spend all day Saturday morning with all of your volunteers introducing your system. And the key part of a system is that we got to get everybody to understand how it works, the process, the orderliness, what goes first. And in in the system that we build, every volunteer ah can make it happen because…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — …everything has a place.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — Everything has a place in the case. And every case has a place in the trailer. And we’re very meticulous about weighing all of that out because we can’t have cases falling on any kids. And we can’t have trailers breaking the axle of trucks. We just, it doesn’t work. So we’re very meticulous about that.

Jeffrey Beachum — And so we spend an hour or so orienting the the volunteer team to what is going to happen and the products themselves. And then and they divide up by teams and they run the cases in. And usually, um no matter how many trailers you have, if you have the right number of volunteers, all of your gear can be in the building within nine minutes.
Rich Birch — Love it.
Jeffrey Beachum — So everything is out of trailers in place in nine minutes. And then you spend maybe an hour setting everything up. That LED wall I told you about, 9 by 16 LED wall – it takes two guys 45 minutes to set up in its entirety…

Rich Birch — Wow. That’s amazing.

Jeffrey Beachum — …if you if you have the right stuff. So it’s within an hour.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — And that’s one of the things we sell the best is time.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — If you are having your volunteers spend three hours in the morning setting up and four hours tearing down, you’re killing them.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — And a system can help save you money because you’re not paying rent. And it can save your volunteers.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jeffrey Beachum — So anyway, we go through it and we put it all up in the facility once and then we take it all back down. That’s typically a Saturday, and it’s all back in the cases. The next day we designed so that it is a real life service. Now it might be just a practice, or it could be real service. But our team then is a little more hands off and your team is a little more hands on. And we actually go through everything like you would on a Sunday morning.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — And it’s it’s very exciting because on Sunday morning we get to, um if they do a video venue, we get to have the video come in and the pastor at the sending church says, Hey, to our new site…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — You know, and everybody says, Hey, and, and it really happens. And then we, after the service or services, we crash it all down back into the trailer. And then we kind of gather up and we pray with the, uh, the volunteer team, and we we say, all right, so what worked, what didn’t work? What do we need to fix? Because it it is a a pretty big system. And so there are typically you know little things that we have to fix and, oops, we forgot to add this piece and and we’ll go and do that.

Jeffrey Beachum — So if you’re in a venue where you think, man, what you just described is not what we have. We really aren’t doing portability very well. We have a thing called efficiency upgrade and we’ll come in to your venue and we’ll help you figure out how to put it into a system…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jeffrey Beachum — …where you can get control and time back.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good. Like I know there’s a lot of churches out there, surprising number, who like rent space on a Saturday to set up because it takes like four or five hours to set up. And then, um, and you know, and I’ve said to those folks over the years, I’m like, you know, you can do this and actually should do this all on Sunday morning. Like it’ll save you resources. It’s actually easier for your volunteers. It’s easier on your team. I know it sounds crazy, but you should be able to get this all done in…

Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, on Sunday morning.

Jeffrey Beachum — Yep.

Rich Birch — So yeah, that’s, that’s amazing. Well, I know there’s a ton we could talk about here…

Jeffrey Beachum — All day.

Rich Birch — …but this has been a great, ah yeah, really great kind of primer introduction. Now we want to send people to portablechurch.com/Jeff and tell me what this…Well, first of all, I think this is great. What what are they going to get when they would drop by portablechurch.com/Jeff?

Jeffrey Beachum — So we put together a landing page that will give you four resources having to do mostly with multi-siting. In the operational, operationalizing the vision resource bundle, we have mapping your multi-site journey. And so that gives a timeline of that process that we were talking about. How soon should a church engage? So that’s just a map on how long it takes.

Jeffrey Beachum — A facility comparison, cost comparison, building out mistakes to avoid, some recommendations that we’ve heard from design, build firms, and then 10 bonus benefits of portability. 10 reasons why, and to be honest with you, I consult to the church’s needs. And if the church really believes they need to be in a different kind of facility, that’s fine. And I’m glad to defer and say that commercial environment is awesome. That’s what you should do.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jeffrey Beachum — However, in probably 80% or more of the cases, I think they could benefit by leveraging portability. It would make them stronger. It would give them time to raise more funds so that they can go into that new environment stronger. They could grow their congregation. They could develop their volunteer team. They could develop new leaders. But there’s 10 bonus benefits of portability there. And the best thing is if you land on that page and pick a date, just have a conversation with me. I will buy you a cup of coffee.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jeffrey Beachum —And you can get your cup of coffee and then come on and we’ll do a Zoom together. And we’ll just have a good old time.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, I would encourage you to to to to do that. So that’s again, just portablechurch.com/Jeff. Even if you’re early, like maybe you’re an executive pastor, a couple thousand person church and you’ve you guys have kind of kicked around, maybe we were thinking about this down the road. You really should start early in the conversation that, you know, I would do that. Or if you’re like a church planter and you’re like, you know, even you’re like thinking it’s going to be maybe 2025 before we do that. You know, reach out now. it It would be great to kind of get in the pipeline, have a conversation. Uh, that would be fantastic.

Rich Birch — Anything else you’d like to say, Jeff, just as we, as we kind of land today’s episode.

Jeffrey Beachum — No, the only the only stat that I don’t think I was able to share is one that kills me. Warren Bird and Ed Stetzer did ah a study a little while ago, and probably the stat needs to be updated. But they determined, on the positive side, 68% of all new location launches are still viable after four years. So of course, me being me, I looked at, that means 32%…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jeffrey Beachum — …of all churches that are launching were not successful. And that that kills me. And so I don’t want any church that I ever have to work with or get to work with to be in that 32%. I want to put them in a system that they may not realize it upfront, but is really good for them, and will give them everything they want in their wish list for launching a new location.

Rich Birch — Nice. That’s great. So good. So again, friends, drop by portablechurch.com/Jeff. Is there anywhere else we want to send people online if they want to track with PCI, kind of track with your story, that sort of thing?

Jeffrey Beachum — Our website, we’re in the process of redoing it.

Rich Birch — Nice.

Jeffrey Beachum — We’ve got a ton of resources. And actually that is a place you could catch on to our newsletter, which is kind of rich – we’re sending out once a month. And so ah portablechurch.com is is our our website. That would be a good place.

Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Jeff. Really appreciate you being on the show. Look forward to having you back in the future.

Jeffrey Beachum — Thanks, Rich.

**Prepare for the Unexpected: Crisis Communication Strategies for Your Church with Kim Tarlton** Oct 03, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to talk with **Kim Tarlton**, the General Manager of **Church Communications Group** which helps church communicators navigate the complexities of the modern communication landscape.

Many churches operate under the misconception that crises won’t happen to them. However, crises can arise from various sources, including issues in the larger community, financial scandals, or natural disasters. The key is to acknowledge the possibility of a crisis and prepare accordingly. Tune in as Kim delves into the strategic planning to effectively communicate about and manage various crises that may arise both internally and externally.

**Get a plan in place.** // Not only do churches need to be prepared for crises, but also crisis communication with the congregation and the public. What message do you need to convey? What is your brand communicating? What are people hearing from your church? Who needs to be the one communicating? Churches need to be prepared for what God is calling them to do and preserve the message of Jesus. Acknowledge that any number of crises may occur at your church and put a plan on paper so you know what you have agreed to.

**Get a crisis response team.** // One of the first steps in crisis preparation is forming a crisis response team. Who are your go-to people? This team should include key staff members who are integral to the church’s operations, elder board members who can provide outside oversight and guidance, and legal counsel to navigate any legal implications that may arise. Create a crisis management plan that clearly outlines who is responsible for what during a crisis and how to communicate with the congregation and handle media inquiries. Include each individual’s contact information so everything you need is readily accessible.

**Plan out your areas of response.** // Develop good relationships with your local news groups. Invite them to events your church holds and have coffee with them. By taking time to build these relationships, you will be able to use them as a resource when you need to interact with the press during a crisis. Additionally, prepare press releases ahead of time that can be used in these situations.

**Levels of communications.** // Many churches fail to communicate effectively during a crisis, leading to confusion and frustration among staff and volunteers. Share information first with the elders and executive leadership. Then inform the staff of the situation and how it will be handled. Finally, communicate with the congregation. This tiered approach helps to ensure that everyone is on the same page and reduces the likelihood of misinformation spreading.

**PRAY with your crisis team.** // Every crisis situation is different and it can be difficult to discern what information to share. Kim underscores that before doing anything, church leaders need to seek God for wisdom and cast all of their cares onto Christ. Use the PRAY acronym—Pause, Repeat what is true about God, Ask God and others for help, and Yield, taking time to listen to God and each other. Don’t be in crisis response mode, but rather crisis management.

**Get together to look at the plan.** // Gather the crisis management team annually and audit the team and the plan every year. Fill empty positions if a member of the crisis response team is no longer there. Spend a couple of hours to review your plans for crisis management and make any necessary changes.

**NEXT STEPS // Editable Crisis Communication Manual Template for Churches**

Based on today’s podcast episode, here is a starting point for a basic crisis communication manual that you can use to begin preparing your church for unexpected situations. Download the editable template to customize for your specific needs.

To get help from Church Communications Group in crisis management or any other aspect of church communications, visit their website at churchcommunications.com and connect with Kim there.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church***

Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it!

**Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church!**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation with Kim Tarlton. This is going to be a fantastic conversation if you are in your church today and you’re thinking about the future and you’re wondering, are there things I can be doing today to get ready for stuff in the future, even if it’s some stuff I don’t want to think about today, will be a great episode for you.
Rich Birch — If you’re not familiar, she is the General Manager of Church Communications Group, which began really as an idea to create a space where church communicators could find support, resources, and inspiration, needed to gap navigate the complexities of the modern communication landscape. She has 26 plus years of being a creative leader in mega churches and excels in communication, strategy, and leadership. Super excited to have you. You’re a bonafide expert, Kim. Glad you’re on the show. Thanks for being here today.
Kim Tarlton — Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here. And and, you know, obviously not a great like exciting subject, but still being able to lean in in this way um is really is really something that like we want to do. And so thank you for inviting me into this conversation.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I know it’s going to be great. So why don’t you kind of fill out the picture? You’re kind of owns a little bit of your story. Tell us a little bit more of the but Kim story, kind of fill out that a little bit before we jump in.
Kim Tarlton — Yeah, so um like you said, 26 years full-time ministry, I was working in the church. And I have been, I’ve been at three mega, well, I guess they’re like giga churches now because that’s the thing. And so I’ve been a part of three churches that ah the first one that I was a part of, there’s 300 when I left there, not because of me, all because of God, but like when I left there, they were running upward of 10,000.
Kim Tarlton — And so these churches and the church growth and the multi-site and all of that, being able to be a part of that for so many years, leaning in on um all areas, from production to creative ministry to stage management, and all those things as well as communications, ah God called me to the Big C church. And to allow the use of what he was giving me and training me and um leaning into me with…

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Kim Tarlton — …for so many years, allowing me to take that to a bigger audience outside of these walls into multiple walls. And so um I was able to join the Missional Marketing Group of Companies, which is where the Church Communications Group is a brand under the Missional Marketing Group of Companies now. So yeah…

Rich Birch — Love it.
Kim Tarlton — …that’s just the the elevator version.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Love it. Well, you know, today we want to talk a little bit about crisis communication. Which um again, this is one of those episodes that I think it’s so good. It’s like leaning us forward thinking about the future.
Rich Birch — And we’ve got a dog, which is great. I love dogs on the podcast.
Kim Tarlton — Sorry about that. Yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s all good. The um but but but first, let’s talk about like what do we mean by crisis communication? Like how do I know? Like obviously, there’s like the super extreme version that we probably can think of and we wish we never had to think of. But but but what does that look like, crisis communications? What is that?
Kim Tarlton — Yeah. So, um, for us, you know, first of all, I’ll start with the fact that like, when it comes to churches, we are, we’re kind of is some, not everybody, but some of us are kind of in denial mode. And we’re kind of thinking through this lens of like, that’s not going to happen to us.
Rich Birch — So true.
Kim Tarlton — Um, and maybe that, that might not be something that’s happening in our church or with our pastors or our people. But the bottom line is is that like the church is actually in crisis right now. It is becoming more and more obvious. We are seeing things that have happened in the past, like years ago, coming to light now.
Kim Tarlton — And so crisis is an actual thing. It’s something that we need to not be scared of.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kim Tarlton — But we need to be prepared for.

Kim Tarlton — And so when we lean in for crisis communication, it’s saying there’s crisis management that your church needs to lean into, your staff, your pastors, everybody. But then there’s also crisis communication. And there’s that side of like, what is it that we’re saying? What is our brand like putting out there to people? What does this what are people hearing from us as a church?
Kim Tarlton — And when we look at crisis, there there’s so many opportunities for crisis to happen.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — It’s not even just in our walls, right, Rich?

Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — Like there’s crisis internally. There’s the church crisis. There’s community crisis. There’s there’s shootings in schools right now. There are things happening within our communities that are causing crisis and we need to manage those well.
Kim Tarlton — And then there’s world crisis, you know. Like right now where I am at, I’m probably dating this a little bit, but like where I am at in Indiana, we’re fine. But Florida is looking like it’s getting hit by hurricanes.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — How do we help manage that? That is happening not here in my state or with my church, but it is happening with churches around the world, or in cities, states, regions outside of our walls.

Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — So when looking at crisis, it’s really going, how do we manage it? But how do we communicate better? And and making sure that we are thinking through that process too…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kim Tarlton — …to make sure that we we don’t go into it kind of stumbling through our words, not sounding right, and not not really like following after what God is calling us to do…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kim Tarlton — …and care for people. Not protect the accused, but to protect the church, to protect the all around idea of like, and not protect Jesus even, I don’t even want to say that, like protect him, but protect the message really.
Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure. That’s good. Like and so you know to put a little more meat on the bones, we’re talking about like you know the the unfortunate situation, you you know. The ah report comes out that the youth pastor was having inappropriate sexual relations with a kid in the youth group. Unfortunately, friends, like these things are they’re like so common that it’s not even hard to think about what the problem is, right?
Rich Birch — It could be in a situation from 10, 15 years ago. There could be a financial issue. But it also could be, like you’re saying, like maybe one of your campuses burns to the ground. Or like you know which is or you have um you know some some sort of you know problem like that that happens to your church that does nothing really, it’s not like a sin issue, it’s just something terrible has happened.
Kim Tarlton — Right.
Rich Birch — Like you say, shootings in in in town, that kind of thing.
Rich Birch — And and so um you know we wanna be thinking, that’s kind of the frame that we wanna have as we’re as we’re thinking about these things today. But when we think about, you know, we’re sitting here today, first of all, before we get to kind of what we should be doing, why is it that, and I’m putting a little bit on the spot here…
Kim Tarlton — No worries.
Rich Birch — Why is it that there seems to be resistance with executive pastors, lead pastors—I say that as an executive pastor—on seeking help around communications? Like we don’t do that. I’ve said in other contexts, and maybe I’m just going to answer my own question. I’ve said in other contexts, yeah, when the church is really small, you have, you know, maybe the church planter’s doing the bookkeeping. And then eventually you pass it on to somebody else.
Rich Birch — And then eventually you might have like a whole department of people, CFO, the whole thing. And like, but there’s a something with communications where I would say communications is a professional function similar to finances, but there’s like a resistance to wanting to interact with an organization like yours. Why is that?
Kim Tarlton — Honestly, like, and I don’t have any, a lot of backing to this…

Rich Birch — Sure.

Kim Tarlton — …but what I hear is like, as soon as you bring light to something, a couple of things end up happening, right? So like I had a pastor give me this example, and this is like this is a terrible example, but I’m going to share it anyway, because it came from a pastor. He’s like, you know like when you are young and you like the girl, um but you don’t know if she likes you, and you’re kind of like unsure, but all that stuff.
Kim Tarlton — And then it comes out. And all of a sudden it’s like, Well, okay, I like you. Whether she liked you or not, now she’s thinking, I like you too. Or maybe there might be something there.

Kim Tarlton — And so there’s this idea of like, as soon as we start talking about it, as soon as we bring light to this, is that going to now shine like this extra spotlight on us at the church? Is this going to make it seem like we’re having that we have something that we’re looking into or that we want to hide or that we’re trying to figure out how to get our way past it. Instead of us looking at it and going, we’ are we want to prepare ourselves. We want to be prepared as a church, and we want to be prepared as a community.
Kim Tarlton — Instead, we’re looking at it and we’re going, oh, that might not make me look good. So I’m going to hide. I’m going to kind of hide it in the background. And so that’s kind of one…
Rich Birch — Interesting.
Kim Tarlton — …probably there’s multiple reasons…

Rich Birch — Right.

Kim Tarlton — …but that’s one of the reasons I am hearing most from churches right now.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Okay. So what, what can we do to be prepared for this? Like with this, is one of these things we don’t want to think about, but like insurance, we’d none of us want to pay insurance, but like, cause it’s like, where does all that money go? But this is similar. It’s like, we’ve got to be thinking ahead about these things.
Kim Tarlton — Yes.
Rich Birch — How could we start thinking ahead, um, for kind of a multiplicity of, of situations? Um, obviously by definition, it’s it’s a crisis so we don’t, you know, we didn’t plan for it. But what what can we be doing now?
Kim Tarlton — Yeah, so um there’s there’s there’s obvious there’s levels and layers to preparing yourself. And when we talk about crisis, you know you mentioned some some of those things as well. Like there’s there’s not ah It’s not always just sexual abuse…
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — …or or something of sexual nature. I think there’s that this list that’s out there, um and if you it might be Barna Group or somebody has a list, like the top five areas that um cause crisis management to happen within a church. And sexual abuse of a minor is number one. And then I believe on that list is like zoning issues, um and personal injury.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.
Kim Tarlton — Somebody actually like getting hurt on site, property disputes. And then I think the other one is insurance issues.
Kim Tarlton — But like one of the things that we’re also seeing a lot in the church right now, um and I believe um I believe I heard this from ah one of our team, um is that like what we’re seeing in church right now, too, is um there’s a high percentage of, even when it comes to the finances of the church, um embezzlement things like that are happening, and it’s happening behind closed doors. And we’re not we’re not prepared for that. We we think, okay, that we’re okay there in the finance side. And then all of a sudden it comes out and it’s like, well, maybe somebody’s been pocketing a few too many of the the giving and the tithes.
Kim Tarlton — And so there’s kind of this like layers and elements of like there’s so many different things and so preparing how do we prepare for all of those things that could happen? And the first thing that I’m going to say is being prepared. Like, that’s probably just being willing to say, you know what? We are willing to, as a church, understand that anything could happen. And even if it doesn’t happen in our walls, like I was saying, there’s stuff happening in your community, happening in your world, and being prepared. How do we respond in these situations?
Kim Tarlton — So number one is just actually leaning into, it’s time to be prepared. I would say every single church staff needs to come together. They bring their staff in the room and they need to say, we are willing to be prepared. And so we’re going to invest in that. And you have to look at your budget and you have to go, what does this look like financially?
Kim Tarlton — It probably is going to look like your communications person, which a lot of those communications leaders are coming right out of college. They maybe have not experienced a crisis of their own. They’re not really…
Rich Birch — They’re good on Instagram. Give it to them.
Kim Tarlton — Exactly, exactly.

Rich Birch — There’s a lot of that in the church world.
Kim Tarlton — There’s a lot of that. And and and that like, as much as we need them to step in because they are our communications leaders, at the same time, they don’t know what they’re supposed to do.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — They don’t know how to write a press release correctly and and all those things. And so getting them the help that can help them prepare. Bringing in the right people to help go, let’s put a plan together. And I think that’s like such a huge need, is making sure you put your plan on paper so that when something happens, we all go back to the book and we pull the book out together and we say, we know, we have agreed, this is the plan.

Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — And we’ve put our team together and we’ve put our, you know this is what this is what a press release is gonna look like, and how this should feel. And this is who should be sending it and doing it.

Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — I had a i had a situation come up um at a church that I was working with that we had the plan, right? Like the plan was there it was visible it was ready to go and then when crisis hit, all of a sudden the pastor went, oh i should be the voice. No, no, no we had discussed this…

Rich Birch — This is why we did it

Kim Tarlton — …that that you are not the voice. And so you have to make sure you plan, you put it on paper, and we all agree to it. So bringing everybody into that conversation is really important.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kim Tarlton — You don’t just have the pastors and the executive pastors do that. You bring your communications team in. You bring your family ministry team in. Because they need to know when that kid breaks their arm at camp, what do we do?
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — We need to call. Or when that kid is at camp, um I’ve had that experience. When this kid’s at camp and they’re like, hey, my parent, something’s happening at home that shouldn’t be happening at home.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — You know what the wrong thing is to do is to be like, okay, yeah, let’s go home. No, no, no. I’m going to talk to your parent about that.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — I, again, I’ve experienced it myself. We’re we’re going to talk to your parent. Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That is the wrong thing for us to do.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — We need to report this.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — That is the first thing we should be doing is reporting that. Because that is an actual complaint of something that we need to lean into and deal with. And our churches are going, but I don’t want it, I don’t want it to come out. Like I don’t want us to be linked to that.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.
Kim Tarlton — Like I don’t want to report that. And so making sure we have a clear plan as a team, bring in the right people. If your communications team, or your executive pastor, or somebody has experience in this, make them the crisis management lead, and allow them to lean in and start start preparing your church. If not, start reaching out…
Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s good.
Kim Tarlton — …finding the right people to help you build this plan. You have to have a plan, or you’re just going to go into it.

Kim Tarlton — But I literally, a church I was at, we found out about a crisis as we arrived to the office and the news reporters were there.
Rich Birch — Wow.

Kim Tarlton — And we were just like, I don’t know what to say.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kim Tarlton — Like we didn’t know who to say, you know, talk to this person or do this. We were just all like, what are you talking about? Like, I i don’t know what to say. Wait, what’s happening? What’s in the news?
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — What are you reporting on?
Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That’s good.
Kim Tarlton — So prepare yourself for sure.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I’d love to talk a little bit more about some of those things you think would be in that plan ahead of time, but I should have a personal experience with this. I for years ran a ah large Christian camp and ah literally my very first summer being in charge of the entire thing, we had a kid go missing…

Kim Tarlton — Oh gosh.

Rich Birch — …and it was, um yeah, it’s like the it’s like the worst case scenario. Like by definition, when people send their kids to camp…the the end of the story was very happy in the end. It was it was fine. But this this person went missing and we have this like alarm and it went off and and it went ah and we all this was thought out ahead of time. When that alarm got to a certain point it had been going for a certain amount of time, it triggered our crisis response.
Rich Birch — And it’s funny how to this day, I still have this very positive visceral memory of taking the crisis manual off the wall and flipping to the page where it’s like, OK, what do I do? And and it included all what you’re talking about. It was like, here’s who you call. There was a pre-written, like, basically fill in the blank you know press release. Here’s the only people that are going to talk you know to the press. Here’s, even just simple stuff for me, like please call you know like, and I was the Executive Director, but it was like the board chair that like and it was like listed their phone numbers had that all right in front of me.

Kim Tarlton — Good.

Rich Birch — Because in that moment you’re like, oh my goodness, like all you’re just seeing red, right? You’re like you know and now it was thankful that it ended up in a positive situation.
Kim Tarlton — Yeah.
Rich Birch — But it man, if I hadn’t done that ahead of time, we would have been scrambling.
Rich Birch — So what would be some of those things when you think about, okay, we’re gonna work on this ahead of time, what would be a couple of those things that we should think about that maybe are not intuitive that we should be planning ahead?
Kim Tarlton — Yeah, yeah. So a few things. One is getting a crisis response team is what we would call it. And so putting together, who is your response team? Who are the people…

Rich Birch — Right.

Kim Tarlton — …that are going to be our go-to, right?

Kim Tarlton — Um, one person from, from your church staff, absolutely. An elder, um, or the elder board, maybe. Your leadership team, your executive pastor – who are these people, these key people who are going to be the people that number one, when this happens, we call them in and we go, here’s what’s going on. What do we need to do? And let’s all start leaning into our areas.
Kim Tarlton — Don’t make this just all about your staff. Do not just have your pastor, your executive pastor, and your communications person. You need to bring in some of those outside resources.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Kim Tarlton — You need those key volunteer or a professional who is maybe associated with your church, um an attorney, something along those lines.
Kim Tarlton — You always want to in, in most given situations that are crisis, you want to contact your attorney and get them on that team. But then also making sure that we have this, you know, a crisis management plan is super important.
Kim Tarlton — So that’s the first thing. And, and I would document that, like you did. I would document that and have their names, their email address, their phone number, like what is our easy access?

Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — Um, I, you know, I would even like in the day and age of cell phones and text messages, I would even build a crisis response kind of text message chain that it’s like, we’re not going to always be, this isn’t a group text where we’re sending like cat memes or anything along those lines.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

But this, this is like that group that when something happens, we basically, we have our, it’s all in, you know, all hands on deck and everybody knows where you meet up and it’s time to talk.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Kim Tarlton — Um, and I think that’s, that’s just so key.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Kim Tarlton — I would say another thing is, um, kind of, plan out um your your areas of response. So there’s there’s media response, right? And one of the things that you can start doing is—there’s so much you can do—but like one of the things I highly recommend to churches all the time is let’s start leaning into um our local news. Let’s start building that relationship. Because nothing can save you more from bad press than having a good relationship and good press.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.

Kim Tarlton — And so if you start building that relationship now with somebody and you are inviting them, you know, every quarter come and have some coffee and let’s chitchat about the church. And we have this big event coming up and come out and see what’s going on there. When that crisis hits…

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kim Tarlton — …and you have that person to call and you say, hey, you know we’ve been building this relationship and I need to I need you to step aside as the journalist for just a second and help me know what questions are going to come my way and help me prepare for that.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.
Kim Tarlton — I will absolutely talk with you and I will absolutely lean in because we have this relationship, but can you help me…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kim Tarlton — …build into what I’m about to say or or these conversations I’m about to have.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so critically important.

Kim Tarlton — I would say um also preparing you know some of those press releases, like have that prepared ahead of time? Just a general note, you know, for immediate release press release. We’ve received this information or we know this information and this is ah what you need to know and how we are handling it. Being prepared in that kind of way to where you can go, let’s just say your communications director is is involved in the situation that is happening. For your leadership, your volunteers to be able to go, great, we now have a well-formatted press release. We have well-formatted email that would go out to all church. Um, we have this and it’s, it’s taken care of like, it’s already ready to go. We just fill in the gaps. What a win, right?
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.
Kim Tarlton — Cause we don’t want to send out something that has spelling issues and all of that’s never fun.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Exactly.
Kim Tarlton — Um, and then I would talk, of I would like from there, I would just go through like, what are the levels of communication? Um, one of the things that I’ve seen done really wrong. And again, this is, this is churches that I’ve been at. And so, you know, I, I was there too. Um, and we didn’t handle things right all the time. Um, and it’s those levels of communication. And what we end up doing is we go, there’s a crisis. We need to tell everybody what we’re doing.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Kim Tarlton — And we need to let everybody know. And then there’s this small group of people called our staff. And then there’s other group of people, our key volunteers, and then this other group of people, our church, that all start to go, gosh, why am I finding this out when the world is finding this out?
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — Why am I being communicated to when everybody else is being communicated to?
Rich Birch — Yeah. It’s so true.
Kim Tarlton — Um, and we’re not honest too. Sometimes we’re like, Hey, there was a problem and we took them off our staff list and like, everything’s going to be great. You know what? No, there’s a problem. Here’s what the problem was.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — We’re going to be honest with you. But build up that levels of where do we start? We’re going to start internally, and we’re going to make sure all the elders and all the executive leadership know. Then we’re going to make sure all the staff know what is the situation, how are we handling this. Then we’re going to build and we’re going to build those layers.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Kim Tarlton — I think one of my staff members calls it something about like communicate to the egg. And so I like you know you the yolk. And then you have the like messy part of it, the egg white.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yep.

Kim Tarlton — And then you’ve got the frying pan, you know, you’ve got all the pieces.
Rich Birch — That’s good.
Kim Tarlton — And so like starting like, we have to start with the yolk and we have to build it out from there and put together our plan. I could go on and on and on, but I would definitely be leaning into um all these. And honestly, like you could you go into Chat GPT right now. Who doesn’t love Chat GPT nowadays? And you could say, Chat GPT, what are the things that I need to prepare in order to prepare my church, my organization for potential crisis? And you will get a list of things just like this…

Rich Birch — Right.

Kim Tarlton — …that you lean into and questions to to get answers for.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. It’s interesting that there seems to be, I think in these situations, there’s like two tendencies. There’s what you talked about, which was the like, it’s almost like an over communication.
Rich Birch — It’s like, okay, you are like very quick to like, I think there’s a lot of, and and some of my best friends are lead pastors.
Kim Tarlton — Yes.
Rich Birch — They believe if I just get in front of people, I can solve this. Like we can stand up and just figure it out.
Kim Tarlton — Right.
Rich Birch — Or there’s the opposite, which is, leaders just go silent. Like something happens someone’s making accusations, they’re posting stuff online, and then we don’t say anything. And it’s almost like and in some cases they’ll even have like a like a gag order. We’re not talking about this and they believe if they just turtle, it’ll it’ll pass over.
Kim Tarlton — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Help us to discern, and I know every situation is different. It’s really hard to speak in generalities about this. But help us to discern when should we be thinking about, okay, we’ve got to do some kind of strategic communication here, or maybe we should just be quiet. What is too much? Again, I know, I know it’s a super nuanced question…

Kim Tarlton — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …but help us through that.
Kim Tarlton — I’m probably not going to give you the answer that ah that you expect.
Rich Birch — Yes. Sure.
Kim Tarlton — Um, and for me, it’s like, one of the first things we have to do is stop and pray.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kim Tarlton — And I I do believe, like and now now I’m not one of those, like I need a new job, so I’m gonna sit on my couch and I’m gonna pray, and then God’s just gonna drop a job into my lap.
Rich Birch — No, no, that’s good. Yep.
Kim Tarlton — I don’t believe that at all.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.
Kim Tarlton — But I do believe that if we go to God for wisdom and we go to God for what is it that we should be doing…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good.

Kim Tarlton — …in this situation, I believe that pastor that is maybe frustrated, that pastor that maybe is like, okay, we gotta do this, and we gotta do this, and we gotta do this, yes, we do. I want you to stop for a second and I want you to lean into prayer…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kim Tarlton — …and I want you to lean in heavy. And let’s let’s come together, this crisis management team that we’ve put together, we’re gonna come together and we’re gonna start by the first thing we’re gonna do is we’re gonna pray.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kim Tarlton — And Putting that prayer time in there is gonna allow you to now go, Okay, we’ve now cast all of our cares on Christ.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kim Tarlton — So now now, what is it that we need to do? And we’ve calmed and we’ve relaxed ourselves and we’re going, okay, let’s think through this responsibly. Let’s think through this well. I think the the prayer acronym, there’s like a prayer acronym, it’s ah p the P-R-A-Y, so you pause, you repeat, like repeat, God is good, he’s in control, he’s got this, right? We ask, God, we ask news reporters. We ask those people that that relationship, we ask. And then we yield, right? And so making sure we’re leaning in in that way and we’re learning and we’re listening to each other and we’re not, we’re not like in that crisis response. We’re in crisis communication, crisis management…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good.

Kim Tarlton — …not crisis response. So that’s, that’s what I would say. Stop. And just remember who who were her we’re for…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good.

Kim Tarlton — …like who are like this is this is all about. This is all about Jesus. And so like, let’s start there.
Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love it. Yeah, I think that’s a great word ah for sure, because I think there are times where, um you know, we want to jump… by definition, leaders are biased for action kind of people. And even if that action is, we’re definitely not saying anything. But but slowing down and saying, no, like let’s let’s take this to the Lord and say, hey, what is it that you, how do we, at the end of the day, we want to see, kind of regardless of what the impact on our ministry is, we want to see the message of Jesus lifted up in this. And what is that? What? That’s hard to that’s hard to discern, right? It’s hard to know, okay, what and what is the best way to go from here?
Kim Tarlton — It’s really hard to discern. And and um what it’s ah fear, it’s like fear-based, right? We we have a we, our discernment ah we have an inner fear that comes and we start to ask these questions like, you know do people really need to know what’s going on there? What you know what what’s what is this all about? Like is this is this reflection of the church, or is this a personal thing? So it’s like and then that those are all things that start to build up in us with fear. And so we start to respond wrong instead of saying, you know, I’m going to cast, ah I’m going to cast my cares on God. The fear of the Lord – that’s like, that’s the only fear that I have to deal with right now.
Rich Birch — Yeah, totally.
Kim Tarlton — And so, yeah, bringing it, bringing it to God is like, um, it, it helps us calm the fire, you know? Cause like, as soon as crisis hits, it’s like this flame ignites, right?
Rich Birch — Right, right.
Kim Tarlton — Yeah.
Rich Birch — Yeah, are there any principles there around, you know that we should be thinking about? And again, I understand, friends. I’m sure there’s people are listening in like, Rich, every situation is different but, but are there some general principles for us to be thinking about? You know, should we try to do a cascading communication here? How quick do we respond? Is it generally like is, or is it asymmetrical? Like, you know, over responding has a greater risk than under responding. So you would default towards, well, maybe we’ll try to take a more measured approach. Is there, are there any principles around that that we should be thinking about in this area?
Kim Tarlton — I would, ah but you know, I’m, I would, for me, being prepared…

Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Sure.

Kim Tarlton — …you’re going to answer those questions before they come. Okay?
Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s good.

Kim Tarlton — So like, in you being prepared, you’re not gonna go into this and go, are we responding too much, or are we not responding enough? Because you’re gonna think about the situation…

Rich Birch — That’s good. Yeah.

Kim Tarlton — …and you need to think about every, like we talked about like property disputes.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kim Tarlton — Okay, that’s like a thing. You know, we had a ah church the within Church Communications Group that we were working with where um there wasn’t anything that happened like within the church. They they went and they did flyers on doors. And somebody was not happy that they received a flyer on their door. So they went into their social media account and posted a really ugly thing about the pastor. Not true, not at all true, but they were unhappy about this situation…

Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — …so they said something about the pastor, which now all of the sudden people are like, oh, well, this church is a massive mess.

Rich Birch — Yeah, wait a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.
Kim Tarlton — If we’re not, we didn’t talk about like, how do we handle this, which they hadn’t. Like, you have to be able to go any situation that could happen…

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Kim Tarlton — …whether it is it is this, or it is that, how do we handle it? And that preparedness is going to allow you to respond the correct way.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Kim Tarlton — Now, there are things that you probably need to be doing as a church um that, like you can prepare your crisis plan, but there’s things that you need to be doing as a church on the regular that help keep you away from and help protect the church from potential crisis. I would say things like a background checks, right? There are so many churches out there that, number one, are not running background checks. Why? Because it’s expensive.

Rich Birch — Crazy. That’s crazy. Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — That’s the worst reason to not be running a background check.
Rich Birch — 100%.
Kim Tarlton — Number two, they’re only running background checks with kid people that works with kids’ ministry. Okay?
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kim Tarlton — That’s a problem because you now have some, you know, you now have open volunteer positions.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — That’s hard. You’re you’re hiring on staff. If you’re only working with kids ministry, that’s one layer.
Rich Birch — Yeah.
Kim Tarlton — So I always encourage like do the background check. I know it’s expensive. but do the background check on anybody that comes into contact with people.
Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, that’s good.

Kim Tarlton — And that’s like people go, whoa! Hold on!
Rich Birch — No, no, no, that’s true.
Kim Tarlton — So lot, now, obviously, if you’re coming into the church, that’s one thing. But if you are serving, if you are directly you know working with student ministry, kids ministry, if you are handing out flyers and um and and programs on the weekend, and you are coming in contact. There was a church that um, that reported like there was some, there was a guy just looking at women. Interestingly enough, they ran the background check and he had a background with women.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — And so it’s one of those like, you need to know who it is that you’re putting into service.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — I’m not telling you don’t have them serve. But what I’m telling you is make sure you have that background check. And make sure if you have somebody and you’re like, okay, this is somebody that maybe has had, uh, a questionable past, but we’re going to put them behind the counter doing guest services. Okay. So now you got to put a plan together with that person. We’re going to do a monthly check-in or a quarterly check-in and just see how you’re doing.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Yep.
Kim Tarlton — Because if you’re struggling with coming in contact with men or women or anything like that, I want you to know that I’m a safe place to talk about that. And we are not going to like, we’re not going to put you in front of the church and make you feel bad. I just want us to have an open conversation and know that I am here.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — I am here to check in on. If you are struggling with something and I know that you want to follow what God has for you. I know that. And so but if you’re struggling, I want you to know I’m a safe place for you to come to and struggle. And and that I might have to pull you out for a season. But know that I am here for you, to care for you, and to love on you.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — And that I am a safe place. Doing those background checks, did you know like ah too, um you were supposed to, ah most churches are doing it, like if they do it, they do it with kids ministry. And then um one, they’re either not redoing the background check ever again, or they’re doing it every three to five years.
Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Kim Tarlton — But you’re supposed to do it every year.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — Every year.
Rich Birch — Right.
Kim Tarlton — These are those kinds of things that like, oh my gosh, it costs so much money. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kim Tarlton — But let me tell you how much it’s going to cost you when that crisis happens.
Rich Birch — No, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kim Tarlton — Because that…
Rich Birch — And and ultimately, like I think on these things, that’s a really good good word for sure. And I’ve definitely seen that with the churches I coach, that where the standard is shifting to anybody that is in a regular volunteer position, regular by defined as it’s ah you’re on a schedule. We’re moving towards getting all those people um background checked.

Kim Tarlton — Yeah. Yes.

Rich Birch — Because they have a level, even if they’re never over in the kids space, they have a level of influence because they have a name tag that says staff or volunteer. And you know there’s there’s risk there. And it also, I think the other piece of this, which is like um well back to when I was running that that summer camp, this is a really kind of dark way to think about these things. But oftentimes, when we would think about this, I would put it through the lens of, OK, so when I’m standing in front of the judge down the road, because something really negative has happened in our midst, and I have to explain what got us here, I want to be able to say, I’m I feel really terrible that XYZ thing happened. But let me explain to you the layers of stuff that we did that that could have prevented it.

Kim Tarlton — Absolutely.
Rich Birch — And we still had an accident. We still had something terrible go wrong. But we weren’t negligent. We weren’t like we don’t have like years of email saying, we’re not affording the $25 thing for for this. Because, man, you do not want to stand in front of a judge eventually and say, well, Yeah, we it would have been an extra thousand bucks a year.
Kim Tarlton — Right? Right?

Rich Birch — Like, what are you talking about? Like, that just isn’t, it’s just not worth it.

Kim Tarlton — No.

Rich Birch — And so, yeah, that’s a good word. How how often would you encourage churches to to review the this kind of crisis communications manual? Is this like an annual thing, every couple of years? What would you suggest?

Kim Tarlton — Yeah, I would suggest every year…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kim Tarlton — …that our crisis management team gets together.

Rich Birch — Yep. That’s good.

Kim Tarlton — First of all, you need to audit the team every year.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kim Tarlton — Um, let’s just say something happens within the team, or somebody leaves the church, right? You want to replace that position.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kim Tarlton — You don’t want it to just be like, Oh, we’re fine. We can do it without Susie or we can do it without Rob.
Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s good.

Kim Tarlton — No, no, no. There was a reason they were in there. So let’s make sure we’re replacing if we, if we lose somebody we’re replacing. And then we want to look at it every year. The reason I’m saying every year, is because COVID, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Kim Tarlton — Like, did we know COVID was coming?

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s true.

Kim Tarlton — No.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kim Tarlton — Were we prepared for COVID? No. We don’t know what is coming. We don’t know what we don’t know.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kim Tarlton — And so us just continuing to refresh it, to keep our eyes on it, to know what is our plan and to make sure we’re building that right team. It’s it’s something, once a year, for a couple hours get together.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Kim Tarlton — That’s not that big of an ask, again, when it comes to protecting your church.

Rich Birch — Yeah, totally. Yeah, good. It’s it’s again, it’s like insurance. It’s it’s preventative work. I understand every church has stuff that is crisis related in the fact of not this kind of crisis, but the like there’s always things right in front of you, but this is one of that stuff that we’ve got to push back and say, okay, let’s let’s take some time. You know we can we can invest a couple year couple hours a year, bring up the Google doc, let’s talk, let’s take a look at it.

Kim Tarlton — Yes.

Rich Birch — Do we need to update? What are we missing? That sort of thing.

Kim Tarlton — Yes.

Rich Birch — Um, this has been, this has been fantastic. A little bit depressing, Kim. We got to have you come back on and have, I don’t know, like how to make great Christmas flyers, like something very fluffy…
Kim Tarlton — We can have a better conversation. Yes.
Rich Birch — …next time.
Kim Tarlton — Count me in. Count me in.
Rich Birch — Yeah. Is there anything else you’d like to say just as we wrap up today’s episode?
Kim Tarlton — No, I’m I you know I like I so ah like I said earlier, um you know I come up with a plan um and there are there are a lot of resources out there. Church Communications Group does work with churches on your crisis communication plan. There are some great great options out there and I would just encourage every church, like I can’t say that enough, encourage you to start building that plan and and reach out and find somebody that can help you dig into that plan.

Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. Kim, this has been great. Yeah, I’d recommend you reach out to Church Communications, Kim, specifically. If you’re, you know, you might be listening in, maybe you’re listening to this a couple of years from now and something is happening at your church that you need some help.

Kim Tarlton — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You should reach out. If people want to get in touch with you or with Church Comms, how can they do that?

Kim Tarlton — Yeah, you can just go to churchcommunications.com and um and right there um is all of our information. You can schedule a call. You can even just say on there, hey, I would like to talk to Kim directly and we’ll make sure that that happens. It’s a lot easier for me to give you churchcommunications.com than to try to give you my email address…

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I get that.

Kim Tarlton — …which is probably too hard to remember.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Well, I appreciate you, Kim. Thanks for being on today and thanks for all the help. Take care.

**Marking a Milestone: Carey Nieuwhof’s Change Leadership Insights 10 Years Later** Sep 26, 2024

Thanks for joining us for today’s unSeminary podcast. **Carey Nieuwhof** has been a guiding light in the church leadership space for decades and this week we’re celebrating the ten-year anniversary of his podcast. To mark this special occasion, we’re revisiting an interview we did with him 10 years ago.

Do you have things at your church that you wish would just change? Do you have people that are resisting change, pushing against what you think is God’s vision for the future of your church? Tune in for the timeless wisdom and powerful insights Carey shares on leading change in your church.

**Don’t expect automatic change.** // Leading change is a skill, but the good news is that it’s a skill that can be learned. Leaders want change, but may expect others to buy into it before it’s been rolled out. Leaders then become frustrated when people don’t change. The reality is that people don’t automatically change and typically don’t like change. As the leader, it’s your job to show people a preferred future and to lead them there.

**There will be resistance.** // Opposition is a normal part of leading change. Everyone who is in your church today is there because they like it as it is now. There will be alienation among some of the congregation who will think things were better before the change. One mistake a lot of leaders make is assuming that loud equals large. Often the loudest opponents are only a small part of your congregation. It’s up to you to do the math and see what percentage of your people is really pushing back against the vision you feel God has given you. This group usually doesn’t have a competing vision for a better future and it’s not worth sacrificing 90% for the 10% who are discontent.

**Have the humility to listen.** // When you are addressing opposition, ask two questions. One, is there a biblical argument in the pushback? If there is, you do need to listen. The leader doesn’t always know best and doesn’t speak for God. Have the humility to listen but the wisdom to act on the things that will determine a better future.

**Is this your target?** // Secondly when facing opposition, ask are these the kind of people you are going to build the future of the church on? You need to focus on who you are going to reach, not who you are going to keep. You’ll only ever hear from the people already there, not from the unchurched people you’re trying to reach. Think about the person who isn’t in the room, not just the one who is.

**Focus on the why.** // Disagreements usually aren’t an issue of character, mission, or vision. Instead they are usually an issue of strategy. When leading change it’s critical to explain your “why” in all of your communications before talking about the “what” and the “how”. Why almost always unites while what and how almost always divide.

**Rolling out communication.** // Communicate change in concentric circles, starting with the core team to gather input before expanding the conversation to broader circles. This approach helps build support and creates a sense of ownership among team members and congregation.

**Innovate and experiment.** // Maintain core successes while exploring new ideas on the side. The longer you’re in leadership and the more successful you are, the more tempting it is to avoid change. An organization that loses it’s experimental and entrepreneurial side will fall off the cliff at some point. Preserve what God has built but never stop pushing yourself to innovate, experiment, and fail.

To follow along with Connexus Church, visit connexuschurch.com. Explore Carey’s website and listen to his podcast at careynieuwhof.com.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Happy Thursday, everybody. Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited for today’s episode. You know, my friend, Carey Nieuwhof, has been podcasting for ten years. I just want to say that unSeminary was launched before Carey’s – I remember we got started the year before and but man, his podcast has gone just meteoric. He’s become so incredibly influential, through his podcasts, through all the different things that he does. And I just want to celebrate him. Carey’s a friend of mine, personal friend, know him from the real world. We actually live in the same town. I’ve had the privilege of working for Carey and we continue to do stuff together, but I thought what would be fun to celebrate the launch of Carey’s podcast is to actually go back into the unSeminary vault from ten years ago and replay a podcast interview that we had with Carey all the way back then.
Rich Birch — And I was really listening to this episode recently, and man, it just does not get old. Carey is really evergreen when it comes to content. And in this particular episode, I was talking to Carey about change, and he talks about the fact that change is a skill. He gives some great stuff around handling resistant resistance, focusing on who you want to reach, building consensus, navigating personal challenges. It really is a fantastic episode. So I thought in celebration of Carey’s ten years of podcasting, that we’d go back and look at an episode from ten years ago and you’ll catch some of the brilliance of Carey that really is timeless.

Rich Birch — Carey, my hat goes off to you. You, I love that your influence continues to grow. I love that you continue to help people. For friends who are listening in, Carey’s the real deal. You should follow him. He’s a man of integrity. He’s the kind of leader that you should spend time getting to know. So for a long time listeners, you’re going to hear some retro unSeminary goodness. Our old opener, and some other fun stuff that we haven’t done in a long time. But here we are. Without any further ado, a ten-year-old interview with our friend, Carey Nieuwhof.

[unSeminary Opener]

Rich Birch — Hey everybody, happy Thursday. Rich Birch from the unSeminary podcast. Thank you for tuning in.

Rich Birch — Do you have things at your church that you wish would just change? Do you have people that are resisting change, that you’re just are pushing against what you think is God’s vision for the future of your church? Well, today you are in for a treat because we’ve got a special guest, Carey Nieuwhof, who I think is one of the smartest leaders in the country on the whole organizational change issue.

Rich Birch — He’s got some great stuff to say. Let’s jump into the podcast and make sure you come back after the interview because I’ve got a few resources I want to share with you.

Rich Birch — Alright, well welcome to the show. I’m so privileged to have Carey Nieuwhof on with us. Carey is a leader, writer, he’s a pastor, blogger, author. And I’m privileged to call him a friend.

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah, Absolutely.

Rich Birch — And so thank you, Carey, for being on the show.

Carey Nieuwhof — Hey, thanks for having me, Rich. I’m really excited to be here, and excited about your podcast too.

Rich Birch — Thanks so much! Well, you know, Carey, you’re one of those leaders I feel like has been through a lot of change. You’ve seen a lot happen. I wonder if we could take a little bit and tell the story about the current ministry you’re at, and just a bit of your background, get people to introduce you a little bit, get to know you more.

Carey Nieuwhof — Sure. Yeah, you know, change has been the one constant over the 18 years that I have been in ministry. And it’s one of those things, Rich, that never goes away. So my story, my background, is I was not one of those people who ever thought I would be in ministry. When I was 8 years old, I decided I wanted to become a lawyer. I don’t know what needs to be wrong with you at 8 years old to want to be a lawyer, but it’s true of me.

Rich Birch — (laughing)

Carey Nieuwhof — So, I went to law school, and it was in the middle of law school that I really like, and I’m not a really a supernatural, charismatic person, but God intervened. And even though I was a Christian, and God made it very clear to me that there was a call to ministry. And it took me a few years to discern that. I finished law school.

Carey Nieuwhof — And in 1995 I came up to where I currently am, about an hour north of Toronto, in a little community called Oro, which you know, Rich. And I started with 3 small Presbyterian churches. My background was Presbyterian. We lead those churches through a significant amount of change over a decade. And then about 6 years ago, I left and we started Connexus Church. And, um that was a transition. Some of the same people but certainly not all of the same people, who were part of those Presbyterian churches went on to start Connexus, a church for unchurched people, and a North Point strategic partner. And even in that, even in the midst of that, there has been an awful lot of change in the last 6 years. So change has been the one constant, I guess. That, and Christ.

Rich Birch — Yeah, exactly. Man that, ya know, I often say to people, “Carey, like I said, he’s just been through a lot.” Now what would you say, you know a lot of people who listen to this podcast are obviously leading churches of all different sizes, but I think we’re all trying to figure out how to change our churches. Right? We’re all, you know, I think as in, bred in leaders is this desire to say “Hey, we want to make things better.” Um, how have you navigated, what were some handles that you come back to, time and time again, you’ve seen, Hey, this is some of the things we have to do as leaders to kind of successfully navigate that change?

Carey Nieuwhof — Well probably, and I didn’t know this right away, but I figured out over time that change is actually a skill, and leading change is actually a skill, and the good news is that it can be learned. There are principles that just work. And I think sometimes leaders find themselves in a trap where they really want change—I don’t know a single leader with his or her salt that doesn’t want change of some kind – that’s what makes us leaders—but we kind of expect other people to buy into that change before we’ve sold it, before we’ve really delivered on it. And so we’re waiting for people to change and then we get frustrated because they don’t change. And I think there is something, at first it was just instinct, that told me that that was just wrong, like people do not automatically change, and people don’t like change. And so, it’s up to you as the leader, ah, to really show people a picture of a preferred future, and to lead them there.

Carey Nieuwhof — Now there are good ways to do that, and there are bad ways to do that. And you know the one question I got all the time, because our little Presbyterian churches what we did was, we started to grow, and um, we sold three historic buildings within 5 years, and we moved into an elementary school. And that elicited some opposition.

Rich Birch — (laughing)

Carey Nieuwhof — You give up everything that they had known for over a hundred years. I mean, these are beautiful little red brick, historic buildings, ya know “Anne of Green Gables” type churches. And they sold them and we moved into an elementary school in the name of reaching people. And then we built a two million dollar facility, and then we left it a few years later when we left the denomination to start over again in movie theaters. I mean, because we thought it would help us reach more unchurched people in a non-denominational context, and with the model of ministry that we wanted to run with. So that’s an awful lot of change, and people don’t just stand up and wildly applaud when you announce what your strategy is.

Carey Nieuwhof — So we did get a lot of opposition. The question I would get, and that’s a long way of getting to this question. The questions that I always got is “Did anybody leave?”

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — And there’s a point at which, “well of course people left!” Like, what do you think?

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — Everybody who’s in your church today is there because they like it the way it is now.

Rich Birch — Hmmmm.

Carey Nieuwhof — That’s something every leader…like everybody that’s at Liquid Church right now, where you serve, likes the way it is now. One way or another. Maybe they may don’t like everything, but they like something about it. So if you are going to change, there is an inherent alienation that’s going to happen with everybody that’s currently a part of your tribe. It just happens, right?

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yes.

Carey Nieuwhof — We liked it better when Rich didn’t do podcasts.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — Right? I mean, you have that. It happens in your tv shows where they start a new character and your’e like, well, it was so much better when they didn’t have that character. Yeah know, it’s like, people don’t like that. And so the opposition get’s intense. But what happens…Here’s one mistake that I’ll share that I think a lot of leaders make, and I had to figure out how not to make this mistake…We assume, because opponents are loud, that loud equals large, loud equals large.

Carey Nieuwhof — So because your inbox is blowing up, or because your congregational meeting didn’t go very well, or because you keep getting pigeonholed after the service, “Hey, can I talk to you?” There’s fingers pointing, you just assume. And if you listen to the opponents, they will always tell you, “Everybody’s upset with this”, yeah know? “I’ve talked to everybody”. Really, you’ve talked to everybody? Ok, just checking. And so they, you just assume as a leader, loud equals large.

Carey Nieuwhof — But if you actually do the math, if you actually go through it, we learned early on, we should just do the math here. Probably that loud group of your organization is probably about 10%. And in the worst days it might be 30. Maybe it’s 50. I doubt it. I don’t think it ever got to 50%…

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — …in our worst moments. Um, but they’re just loud. And so you just have to convince yourself, I have to do the math and wait a minute, am I going to sacrifice 90% of the population of our organization for the sake of 10% who are not content? And often the people who are opposed to your vision don’t actually have a competing vision for a better future. So if you ask them, so where, what do you want to do, what do you want to accomplish? They’re like, “I don’t know, it just can’t be that way.”

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Carey Nieuwhof — Well you can’t go back, you can’t go back. So what’s your vision for a preferred future? And often the answer is, they don’t have one. And so then really, ok, so you are going to listen to the 10% of the population that doesn’t have a clear destination, that actually isn’t going to make it better. It doesn’t mean they are bad people, they’re just not going to make it better. And you’re going to sacrifice and jettison your whole organization for the sake of that?

Carey Nieuwhof — And then, if you’re involved in the church, or you’re a business and you think about, well that’s my existing customer base, those are existing users. What about all the market out there? What about, in my case, unchurched people? You’re going to let 10 people in a church of 100 control the future of 100,000 people? You’re going to let 100 people in a church of 1000 control the future of 100, 000 people? Do the math. So those are some lessons I had to learn early on, and we were fortunate enough to try to figure it out.

Rich Birch — Well, Carey, this is why I love you talking about change, cause, ya know it just falls out of you. It’s like, OK, well there might have been a bit of opposition about selling three buildings and merging and all this stuff. That’s amazing. Break down to, you know, maybe a personal story, or a time you remember when there was a bit of opposition there, um maybe from a source where you didn’t anticipate it. How do you deal with that?

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Because it’s not so much, I think for leaders that it’s like, there’s that person you don’t like. Maybe it’s just you, but there’s always people in every church where I’m like ah, I don’t really like them.

Carey Nieuwhof — I’m not going to listen to them.

Rich Birch — But then there’s the people that are a little closer, um, ya know, how do you deal with that? How do you deal with, you know, talk about something personal?

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah. Well let’s do two ways. Number one, in the early days, you do get a lot of opposition, you get people standing up, emailing or pigeon-holing you or whatever. We learned as an elder board to ask this question, or two questions. Number one: Is there a Biblical argument in what they’re saying? Because if there is, I need to listen. And just ’cause I’m the leader doesn’t mean I always know best, doesn’t mean I speak for God. And wisdom does come to us, sometimes, even in the face of opponents. Even with your worst opponents, there might always be a grain of truth in what they are saying, even if their motivations aren’t great. So have the humility to listen, but the wisdom to only act on the things that really are going to determine a better future. The humility to listen, but the wisdom not to act on all of it. So, is there a biblical argument to what they are saying?

Carey Nieuwhof — Second question we learned to ask, and this one I still ask to this day is: Are these the kind of people we are going to build the future of the church on? Are they? And, um, in the early days, a lot of them were older, and there’s nothing wrong with older people. We have some very, very wise, older, senior adults in our congregation that we listen to. But sometimes, ya know, in our case, they were people we just couldn’t build the future of the church on. And even younger leaders, when you look at their lives, it’s like, I don’t really see a track record where you’ve accomplished a whole lot, or maybe your life, you sit in the critics chair all day long, and you say, this guy’s wrong, and that guy’s wrong. That’s just your life. You cannot build the future of the church on people like that.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — People who are cynical, and negative and always opposed to something -you can’t build the future of the church on. Now, where it get’s tough, I remember about 10 years ago I had a letter from, and I haven’t talked about this publicly, but you asked so…

Rich Birch — (laughing)

Carey Nieuwhof — I got a letter from a key elder. She sent me a note and she just said, “I support you 100% and but this time I think you have gone to far.” And we were getting rid of the last of the old hymns. And I sat down with her and I mean we cried together, and I said, I just gotta disagree with you. I’ve gotta focus on who we are going to reach not who we are going to keep. And we tried to keep up our friendship, and she continued to serve in leadership. And I mean, I see her now, I don’t see her as much, our church is bigger and the whole deal. But whenever I see her, I get this huge hug and I mean, she’s well into her senior years now, but just an incredible woman.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Carey Nieuwhof — And sometimes I think you just have to work through that. And I think one of the reasons that people get out of sorts with wise leaders, often it’s not with your best people, it’s not a character issue, it’s not a mission issue, it’s not a vision issue. Usually it’s a strategy issue. And so sometimes if you get to the point where some of your best leaders are saying like, if I’ve got five great leaders telling me I’m wrong, I’m probably wrong. So this is not like, you just go ahead and you just blaze trails. Every once in a while you have a Moses moment where you are going across the dessert all by yourself, you’re speaking for God. But I think a lot of time leaders think they are in those moments when they are not.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — But if you get to the point where if you’re with a leader, if you can isolate that to strategy, and I think the disagreement between this great woman and me, was a strategic disagreement.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — And it was a lot of change at once. So when we work through the strategy, it was just one of those things where I just think that the style of music that we are going to do in the future is going to be more effective at reaching unchurched people, you can sometimes reach an agreement. Or at least you realize why you are disagreeing, at the time, and that one was tough. Actually that incident, combined with a really, really tough month, I remember it was November 2002, sent me to a counselors office for the first time ever.

Rich Birch — Wow!

Carey Nieuwhof — So that was very personal.

Rich Birch — Ya, absolutely! Now, does she continue to be connected to the ministry today?

Carey Nieuwhof — Absolutely! She was there last Sunday, will be there this Sunday, gives, serves, I mean…has a great heart.

Rich Birch — Ya know Carey, I think that commends, that’s a good personal story. I think sometimes when we talk about change, right, that’s amazing. It obviously really meant a lot to her, obviously meant a lot to you, that you can come to a point of disagreement, but still not break relationship, is amazing.

Carey Nieuwhof — I did a couple of her grandchildren’s weddings, you know.

Rich Birch — Ah cool.

Carey Nieuwhof — She had a big birthday and the family invited me, Toni, my wife and I were there last summer. I mean, you can work through those things, but I would say you just have to figure out why you are disagreeing. I know with our current leadership, we try to find people whose character runs deep and who we also have a great chemistry with personally. That often the misalignment happens, never on a mission or vision level, not in the church. We believe in Jesus, we love Jesus, He’s great, ya know we agree on that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Carey Nieuwhof — The disagreement is strategic. And if you can isolate that, you will often at least understand why you disagree and sometimes find agreement even in the midst of that.

Rich Birch — So now what would you say to a church leader that says, “I want to make a strategic shift this fall or early next year, and I’ve got a core group around me that agrees with that,” but they anticipate a bit of resistance. What are couple just practical tactics to start with – you know, it’s not going to be the whole thing….

Carey Nieuwhof — Right.

Rich Birch — But one or two little first steps toward that change.

Carey Nieuwhof — Number 1: Focus on why. I think a lot of leaders get tripped up on what and how. And so the reason…its what Simon Sinek says that people buy why you do it, not what you do. And I think that’s true. You know, every time you open your mouth as a leader you need to explain why. So lead with why. Pepper all your private and public communication, your written communication, your vision casting with why, and then talk about the what and the how. But why almost always unites, and what and how almost always divides.

Carey Nieuwhof — The other thing I would talk about is, Patrick Lencioni calls it cascading communication. You can also look at it in terms of communicating in concentric circles.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — So start with your core team where you actually get input, then go a little bit wider to your next level. So we have a level of government in our system, the North Point system, call MTR’s, Ministry Team Representatives. We’ll bounce change off them first. Like, hey, this isn’t a decision, we just want to get your input. And then when people who are close to you, and share your strategic alignment but aren’t necessarily around the table, when they get input, just like well what about this, or what about that, buy in is much higher. And then you sorta go to the crowd, you know, and then you go to the community. So start layering it. And you know what else, people love to be the first to know. If you can give them…

Rich Birch — That’s so true.

Carey Nieuwhof — ….an inside track and we’ve just really in the last year really ramped that up. It’s like hey, I want you to be the first to know that this is something we’re looking at. And really not keep any secrets. I think once in a while a personnel decision is something you don’t talk about, but we always say, there’s no secrets at Connexus. We’re not going to communicate this publicly yet, but you’re in the room and you can know….we’re negotiating with Cineplex Odeon on a permanent deal. You know, if you can make it public, do. And then people feel like, I’m part of this. They feel some skin in the game, some ownership, even before it get’s trotted out publicly. And when you’ve got a hundred people sitting in a Sunday service where something is announced and they already knew it, you’ve already got 100 evangelists for change.

Rich Birch — Oh totally. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Anything else on this change topic? There’s a lot here. You’ve written a book on it. Anything else that you want to make sure we get in?

Carey Nieuwhof — I would just say, you know the big goal, and real short, is focus on who you want to reach, not who you want to keep. And the biggest thing that I find hangs up leaders in the midst of change, is that you are only ever going to hear from the people that want you to keep them. You’re never going to hear from the people who you want to reach. Unreached people don’t randomly email you and say, hey if you did this I would come to your church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Carey Nieuwhof — They don’t do that. They don’t call you, they don’t text you, ya know, they’re silent. And so in the same sense that if you’re in a position of power, or influence, you need to think about how God wants you to use that power and influence and affect people who don’t have power and influence. I think when you are a church leader, or even if you are an organizational leader, you’ve got to think about the customer you haven’t reached, not just the customer you have. You gotta think about the person that isn’t in the room, not just the people who are in the room. And I think leaders that are able to maintain that focus and are able to share that focus widely in the organization are going to do the best when it comes to change, and creating a culture of change.

Rich Birch — Ya, friends, if I can just reinforce what Carey is saying, he actually lives out. A part of what I appreciate about Carey, his leadership, Connexus (their church), is when you cut them, they bleed “Hey, we wanna be a church for unchurched people.” That’s what they talk about all the time. They’re obsessed with it. Which really, I think does drive, like we were talking about there, leading with the why. It becomes the conversation piece – that is the benchmark upon which they judge everything. I appreciate Carey, your leadership, not only on the change, but then also on the focus of staying clear on that mission.

Carey Nieuwhof — I appreciate that Rich and you know just to encourage people, when we started to grow, most of our growth did not come from unchurched people. I’m 18 years into this. In the first decade it was probably about 30% unchurched people and 60% church growth. But that’s flipped. In the last few years, we’re 60% of our people are self-identified unchurched people. We don’t think, hey I think they are unchurched. They tell us they’re unchurched. And that’s great. And so remember that you can change something in 2 or 3 years, but it takes probably 5-7 years to transform it. And the transformation happens with change when it becomes part of who are and embedded in your culture. And so if you’re in the middle of change, don’t give up, you’re probably going to be most tempted to quit moments before your critical breakthrough.

Rich Birch — Alright, I said we are coming to the end but I have one more question I want to slip in.

Carey Nieuwhof — Go ahead.

Rich Birch — This is, again, a bit more personal. Do you feel, as you progress along in your leadership journey, just personally, you’re more open to change and more open to risk, or less? What is your own personal dynamics on that?

Carey Nieuwhof — Yeah, you know what, that’s a great question and I’m kinda in the middle of that right now. I think as you get older, and I think the longer you’re in leadership, and the more successful you become, the more change-averse you become. Particularly if something is successful, you’re really worried about wrecking it. I also think we are in the middle of a massive cultural shift. You write about it all the time, Rich, and you’re up on trends like crazy. So the way I am looking at it now, and I hope to write another book. The third book in the change trilogy will be on creating a culture of success. But the early notes on that for me at least are, maintain what you’ve got but constantly innovate and experiment.

Carey Nieuwhof — You can experiment on the side, and I think an organization that loses it’s experimental entrepreneurial, let’s just preserve at all costs, you just coming close to the cliff. And it’s just only a matter of time until you fall off. So I think when you’ve got success, and you’ve got momentum, and we’re in a season of momentum right now, you want to make sure that yes, you’ve got to preserve what God has built and what you’ve accomplished, but never ever lose. So I am pushing myself to innovate and experiment and fail. But you have to fail in areas that isn’t…Sometimes you gotta fail in areas that might cost you the whole organization. But I think it’s smarter to experiment on the side.

Carey Nieuwhof — And so we’re doing an social media experiment right now, and we don’t even know whether it’s going to to work. But it doesn’t cost us $50,000, it costs us $5,000. And we’re going to find out whether it works. We’re always adjusting the sails, and always playing around. And we’ll play, like we are doing something off model for a North Point Church, you know, we are not being disobedient or whatever, but we’re just trying some stuff that we’re just experimenting with. And if it doesn’t work, you just shut it down. So I think you can lose that and I think the older you get, the more successful you get, older in age but also older as an organization and the more successful, the less you will innovate and the less you will experiment.

**Can a Church Stay Mid-Sized and Still Multiply? A Conversation About Growth and Vision** Sep 19, 2024
Welcome to an Office Hours episode of the unSeminary podcast. In our Office Hours episodes I’m happy to answer your questions that you can submit via an audio file through our website.

**Mark Strickland** is the lead pastor at **Milton Bible Church** in Milton, Ontario, Canada. His mid-sized church has about 300 attending on Sunday mornings, has a relational family vibe, and also ministries that connect with the community. They don’t want to stay comfortable with just filling two services and cruising along. They want to fulfill the Great Commission and expand, whether with church planting or multi-site.

Mark asks: When is the right time to church plant or go multi-site? What are the best practices when considering expansion as a mid-size church? And lastly, are there any permanently mid-sized, healthy churches that are models to look at?

**When is the right time to multiply?** // Healthy things multiply. In the ECFA New Faces of Church Planting study, one of the indicators for church multiplication is conversion growth. Take a look at the people who are coming to your church. If 51% or more of them are new people coming to know the Lord, that’s a good indicator that you should be thinking about multiplying.

**Start casting vision now.** // What is your current vision for multiplying? You may not be ready to start a new campus or plant now, but how can you start casting that vision, even if it is a couple years down the road? Start casting vision with your elders and your team around what God’s calling you to do in the future. Don’t look just at a growth spurt but a pattern of growth over time. Ask yourself if you are seeing sustained growth from people coming to know Jesus.

**Are members ready to launch?** // Post-COVID, the average church plant core team size is 18 and the average multi-site core team size is 45. The size and health of the launch team is critically important. Are there a healthy 45 people you could send to a community on the other side of town to launch something new?

**Prepare for the financial side.** // Another aspect to think about is the financial side of expansion. It’s financially taxing to launch a new site or plant a church. Often church planters rely heavily on fundraising the first few years. How could you start building financial resources to gift to a church planter to help them launch strong in a couple years?

**Questions to ask yourself.** // Not every church needs to be big, but every church needs to have a big vision for what God is calling them to do. What is the big vision that God could call your community to? What is it that He’s calling your church to that ultimately looks like the transformation of your community for the message of Jesus?

If you’ve got a question that you’d love to get answered, drop by the Office Hours link to upload an audio file.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

Lastly, don’t forget to **subscribe to the podcast on iTunes**, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live!

***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe***

Do you feel like your church’s facility could be preventing growth, and are you frustrated or maybe even overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your church building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that your church could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs?

Well, the team over at Risepointe has been there. As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead your church to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Licensed all over North America, their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to help move YOUR mission forward.

**Check them out at Risepointe.com/unseminary and while you’re there get their FREE resource “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build”.**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Rich Birch here. Super excited for today’s Office Hours episode. What is an Office Hours episode, Rich, you might be asking? Hey, great question. I’d be happy to answer. I’m already starting off the top talking to myself.
Rich Birch — Man, this is going to be a fun episode. So Office Hours are where you go over to our website, unseminary.com, and you’ll see at the top, there’s a place where you can drop an audio file, and I would be happy to answer your question. So why don’t you do that after today’s episode.
Rich Birch — Super excited to hear from Mark Strickland. Let’s listen to his question, and then I’ll come back and try to offer whatever insight I can. Let’s listen in: Pastor Mark Strickland.
Mark Strickland — Hey Rich, Mark Strickland here, hope you’re keeping well. I’m currently serving as a lead pastor at Milton Bible Church in Milton, Ontario. We are a Fellowship Baptist church, word and spirit church, kind of a Bapto-costal flavor, if you will.
Mark Strickland — And we are a mid-sized church. We’re about 300 butts in the seat on Sunday mornings, and over two services, we believe we could be around 400 or 500 potentially, and we probably have about 500 people who call our church home.
Mark Strickland — And so the question our elders are really wrestling with right now is this: We believe that being a mid-sized church is our sweet spot. We have a great kind of tension between having kind of a relational family vibe, but also providing a lot of great ministries and programming to both our church and our community. So that’s great.
Mark Strickland — But we don’t want to get comfortable filling two services and then just kind of cruising. We want to fulfill the Great Commission. We want to see churches planted in our region. And so we’re aspiring towards that end. We’re planning towards that end.
Mark Strickland — And I guess some questions we’re wrestling through is like, when is the right time to church plant or go multi-site? I’d say for us as a church, we’re at 300 right now, but we could grow still probably comfortably to be 400 or 500 on a Sunday morning.
Mark Strickland — And then on top of that, coming from a larger church setting of say 1,500 people, when we went multi-site, it was a bit easier to say to 50 to 100 people, hey, would you consider going to plant this new site? You didn’t really lose that many people from your congregation. Whereas being a mid-sized church, if you send 50 to 100 people to go do a church plant, then you are sending away maybe 25, 30 percent of your congregation. And that can absolutely impact many things in your current context.
Mark Strickland — So yeah, we’re wrestling through, when’s the right time to church plant or go multi-site? What are best practices when considering church planting or multi-site as a mid-sized church?
Mark Strickland — And then we’re also wondering, are there any permanently mid-sized 300, 600 person churches that are exemplars or models to look at of churches that have done this well that are functioning healthily, mid-sized, but also fulfilling the Great Commission in doing church planting or multi-site or something like that? So yeah, those are just questions we’re wrestling through and would love to see if you have any thoughts on that. Thank you so much. Bye now.
Rich Birch — All right. Great questions from Pastor Mark. Thanks so much for leaning in and for asking this question.
Rich Birch — First of all, I need to declare my conflicts of interest right up front. So Mark doesn’t know this. I don’t think Mark knows this, but I actually lived in Milton, the town that he is currently ministering in when I was a kid. That’s part of why this question caught my attention. I lived there for a couple of years when I was in grade school. And so that’s probably good and bad for this question.
Rich Birch — So really Mark is asking three questions. When is the right time for a church to multiply? Then there’s really this whole question around best practices of launching out of a church of 300. And then finally, are there really any exemplars of permanently mid-size churches?
Rich Birch — Well, let’s take each one of those in order. First of all, when is the right time to multiply? So Mark, if I was sitting across the table from you, I would say, listen, healthy things multiply. At the end of the day, healthy plants, healthy people, healthy organizations multiply. Healthy churches multiply.
Rich Birch — I was doing a little bit of research getting ready to answer your question, and I’ll link to these in the show notes. But the ECFA study on the New Faces of Church Planting might be interesting for you to go through your team with. And often one of the indicators for multiplication is actually conversion growth.
Rich Birch — So I would look at the people that are coming to your church, the kind of new folks that are coming in. And because the reason what happens there is, as a church is seeing people come, if it’s brand new people, that would ultimately say, man, you are unlocking something in your culture that’s making a difference. In fact, specifically, churches with a conversion growth rate of 51% or more. So that’s half or more of your people are coming from people coming to know the Lord. Man, that’s a good indicator that you should be thinking about multiplying.
Rich Birch — I think there’s a vision gap here. I think there’s an opportunity for you. When I think about this whole idea of when is the right time to multiply, I would be asking the question around, could you be casting vision to this? I’m going to talk into both sides of my mouth. I’m kind of tipping my hand where I’m going, Mark.
Rich Birch — But being permanently midsize, that’s fine. But I would say, man, the mission is still to reach more people in Milton and beyond. And so what is your current vision for multiplying? Maybe there’s an opportunity for you to reach out and say, hey, we anticipate church planting down the road. We’re not sure what that looks like. We’re not sure what that looks like or when that looks, but we believe that God’s calling to us. So how could you start casting vision even now, even if it’s a couple of years out?
Rich Birch — Maybe you take your leadership team to the Exponential Conference. Now, I know the Global Conference is sold out, but the Regional Conference in Chicago this fall. Or maybe you go to California for one of those regionals. You start to try to cast vision with your elders and with your team around maybe God’s calling you to plant a church down the road. Maybe there’s an opportunity for you there.
Rich Birch — So interesting, one of the patterns that we’ve seen for churches that multiply, that either church plant or do multi-site, it’s not just a growth spurt, but it really is a pattern of growth over time. So multi-site churches that launched in the pandemic still have a median launch size of 60 people, and they grew to 95 within a year.
Rich Birch — So think about that. Could you send out 60 people, which I know in a church of 300 is like a real number, 20%. That would be hard to do, could be hard to do.
Rich Birch — But in order to sustain that, really what you want to discern is, is our church having sustained growth over multiple years, or have we just experienced a growth spurt? Because if you’ve been able to show sustained growth, then your ability to launch either multi-site or church plants long-term will be easier. Does that make sense? Do you understand what I’m saying there?
Rich Birch — So when is the right time for a church to multiply? I really think healthy things multiply. I think you should be thinking about it now. I think you should be casting vision towards it. Even if it’s up over the horizon, the diagnostic tool I would ask you to think about is, are you seeing a kind of sustained growth?
Rich Birch — Or is it the kind of thing where it’s not just that we had an extra 50 people show up, and there are 50 people from because our community grew, and there are people from out of town who moved into our town, but we’re actually seeing people who’ve come to know Jesus. All of those things would lead me to the place that would say, man, we should be thinking about. So does that make sense?
Rich Birch — All right. So best practice number two. Best practice for launching out of a church of 300 or so. So this one is close to my heart, and I think you expressed the actual problem or concern of multiplying out of a church of 300, and I’m just going to declare my bias right now.
Rich Birch — So I’ve talked about in other locations, in other… I talk about it all the time. It’s literally every week in my email. I say, I’m on a mission now to help 100 churches grow by 1,000 people. I do think that churches should grow larger, and there’s all kinds of reasons for that. And a part of the reason is to help with this multiplication issue.
Rich Birch — So I think you have rightly diagnosed that sending 100 people could be really difficult. Now, that isn’t actually the normal size. So if you look at the actual statistics of people that were sent out, it’s actually quite smaller than that post COVID. The average church plant core team size was 18. Multisite, it was 45 on the core team. But this is my issue for you.
Rich Birch — What I do know on both church plants and multisite campuses is the size and health of the core team is critically important. And oftentimes, we just think about the size of that team. But the question I would ask you is the health.
Rich Birch — Could you send out a healthy 45? Is there a healthy 45 people that you could send to a community to launch something new? What could that look like? Could you find a planter and go to an outlying community or to the other side of town? Is there an opportunity for you to do that? Because I think you have rightly diagnosed the issue.
Rich Birch — Another piece to think about is really the financial piece. And when I think about multiplying, whether it’s multisite or church plants, one of the things we just know is that it is expensive. It’s financially taxing to either be a church planter or to launch a multisite campus. You’ve lived in that world, but it’s difficult to pull all the cash together to make it happen.
Rich Birch — And I wonder if there’s an opportunity for you now to even begin to build a war chest for your 300 people to start building financial resources to gift to a church planter, to give them, instead of giving them $25,000, which is apparently the number that church planters are using, according to this study, post-COVID. What if you tried to build a war chest of $100,000 or $200,000 to give to them in a couple years to launch them strong?
Rich Birch — Because one of the things I do know about church planters is one of the things they joke about is, man, the first couple of years, they become really good at fundraising because that’s what they have to do all day long. Financial is a real issue, often. So 73% of church plants become financially self-sustaining at the end of year three.
Rich Birch — So if you’re thinking about planting, multiplying, you’re going to think about how do we give them enough resources to keep them sustained over those years? I would start wondering about that now. Could we start setting those resources aside and try to accelerate the financial sustainability, basically give them more cash up front and shorten that runways to the point where they could be on their own?
Rich Birch — Does that make sense? Okay, then number three, are there any exemplars of permanently mid-sized churches?
Rich Birch — Okay, this is the part. First two answers, you’re probably going to like me, Mark. Third answer, you’re not going to like me. So I would challenge you on this. I’m not sure that staying small is a great vision. I’m just not sure. So this is where the fact that you’re in Milton is going to be a disadvantage for this question. It’s not just a random town.
Rich Birch — So I know that Milton has exploded. I was looking up some statistics between 1991 and at 2021, Milton has grown by 350%. And it continues to grow at a rapid rate. And so my question for you is if all the churches in town just stayed the same size, the influence of Jesus is a third of what it was in 1991. And if we all stand around and say, man, we believe that God’s called us to be a church of 300, 300 and no more, then we’re limiting the message of Jesus in our community.
Rich Birch — God has clearly given you something. You know that. God has helped you and your leadership team to figure out how to reach your community. Why would you put a cap on that? I would love for you to cast vision.
Rich Birch — Listen, I don’t think it’s about, I don’t think all churches need to be big churches. I don’t think everything needs to be a giant church. I totally understand that. But maybe you, I do think you need to have a giant vision, even if your church is not giant. So could it be that God’s calling you to plant 30 churches of 300 in the next 10 years?
Rich Birch — Before Jesus, before the 2000 anniversary of the birth of the church, before 2033. Maybe there’s some big vision there. So I understand that why you don’t want to be seen as like, hey, we want our church to be a big church. But my question for you is if Milton stays on the trajectory where it is now, and your church stays at 300, and it triples again in size over, you know, the next 15 years, 20 years, man, the voice of Jesus will continue to be extinguished in your community.
Rich Birch — So I would challenge you to think about what is a big vision that God could call your community to? And what is it that he’s calling your church to that ultimately looks like the transformation of your community for the message of Jesus?
Rich Birch — Well, Mark, man, love you so much. Thanks so much for stepping in and leading. I love what you’re doing at Milton Bible there and excited to see the future.

Rich Birch — If you’ve got a question, if you’re listening in and you’d love to get a question answered, I would love to do that for you. So just drop by unseminary.com. See at the top, you’ll see a link there. Click on it for Office Hours.
Rich Birch — Thanks so much, friends. Have a great day. Take care.

**Building an Inviting Church: Greg Griffith on 60% Growth in Two Years** Sep 12, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with **Greg Griffith**, Lead Pastor at **King of Kings** in Omaha, Nebraska.

If your church does what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. But when you take a risk and step out of your comfort zone, who knows how God can use it to reach your community. Tune in to hear how King of Kings has taken some risks to reach out to their community in unique ways and the impact and growth they’ve seen.

**Keep it simple.** // As with many churches, the COVID-19 pandemic significantly impacted King of Kings, cutting their attendance in half. Despite these challenges, Greg focused on the new attendees who began to come during this time, many of whom were eager to engage with the church and share their faith with others. To encourage growth and help foster a culture of invitation, King of Kings focused on a couple of simple, actionable items that they could put into place.

**Big Sundays.** // One of the key strategies they implemented was to create four big “inviteable Sundays” outside of Christmas and Easter services and encourage their people to think of at least two where they could invite someone to church. One example of a Big Sunday is “Jersey Sunday” which is held over Labor Day weekend and everyone wears their favorite sports jersey. Around Halloween, King of Kings holds “Super Sweet Sunday” and children are encouraged to dress up in church-friendly costumes and enjoy the candy that’s distributed.

**It’s ok to be attractional.** // Greg acknowledges that some people may view these initiatives as gimmicky, but he believes that they serve a greater purpose. If Jesus used simple elements like turning water into wine and feeding people with bread and fish to connect with them, then churches can also use creative and fun events to draw people in. Take a risk and do something that may make you a little uncomfortable and see what happens. You won’t see different results if you just keep repeating what you’ve always done.

**Other invitable days.** // King of Kings also holds four non-church invitable events. These are community events that don’t include a church service, for example a back-to-school event where school supplies are distributed, or offering a gift-wrapping service to the community around Christmastime. Greg underscores that the community events are meeting a need and helping in an area that stresses out non-churchgoers. The events are a gift to the community and have to be free. If someone wants to give money at the event, Greg encourages people to instead come to a church service to give, or donate online.

**Church Growth Incubator.** // Greg and his team are taking part in Church Growth Incubator, which is a one-year coaching experience that includes two calls a month and two retreats a year. It’s designed for churches who want to increase their invite culture. The program has offered actionable steps that have helped King of Kings grow and work toward their attendance goal.

**Honor all generations.** // As they look toward the future, one thing Greg and his team are wrestling with is how they lead to truly be a church that honors all generations and households. Regardless of where people are in life—single, widowed, empty nest, married with kids, married with no kids, divorced—King of Kings wants to help the church to honor one another in their neighborhoods and worlds so that all people can feel welcome and connected to each other.

You can learn more about King of Kings at their website www.kingofkings.org, and find Greg on Facebook and Instagram under the name “GregGriffithLeads.”

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***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe***

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in today. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. Today we’re talking with a good friend of mine, Greg Griffith, from an incredible Lutheran church in Omaha. First of all, Omaha is a great city. Lots of good things happening in Omaha. King of Kings is an incredible church in Omaha, and Greg is a friend. This is a fun podcast because often I’m talking to people who I’ve just met online. But Greg I know from the real world.

Greg Griffith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — So it’s so great to have Greg on the show today. Greg, welcome. So glad you’re here.
Greg Griffith — Thanks so much. It’s so great to be with you, Rich, and good to see you. And it’s been too long since we’ve seen each other in person. So.
Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. It’s true. Well, why don’t you fill in the picture? Tell us a bit of the King of Kings story. Give us kind of the flavor. Fill out the picture a little bit. Tell us more about the church.
Greg Griffith — Yeah, I’ve been at King of Kings for five years. Started in August of 2019, so I was called here to stand on the shoulders of a giant, in our church body and a giant in Christendom, I believe, named Mark Zehnder. And, I had a charge to just take off further where he went. And then obviously, eight months later, I did the unthinkable, which is we had a church attendance of zero, so, due to Covid. But, so we’ve navigated through that over the past five years.
Greg Griffith — But, King of Kings has been a church that’s always been innovative. They’ve been a pioneer, really, in our church body, from music style in the 80s, obviously making a shift from more traditional into a contemporary style, to making their own music. And then even moving from a church that look like a church into a 250,000 square foot industrial software microchipped warehouse, and making that their church home. And then and then today we’re continuing to innovate in how we do multi-site. And, King of Kings is a place that, truly, the people have a wonderful heart and posture to say, let’s do anything short sin to reach those who don’t know Jesus. And, it’s really been a joy and a thrill to be a part of this great church and this great community.
Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah. It’s fun to, you know, to to interact with your church and get to know your team a little bit. Over these last couple of years and we’ve had I’ve had a chance to visit your church, which is which has been great. And so I’m really looking forward to kind of diving in a little bit.
Rich Birch — A part of what caught my attention was, you know, I don’t know, at some point, you know, we’ll stop talking about Covid, but like it is a benchmark in all our brains. Like, I don’t know, you know, it’s like a it was such a dramatic moment. And then, you know, you’ve you’ve seen some really significant growth at the church…

Greg Griffith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …really from that milestone to today, which is, you know, there’s so many people, even I know there’s people that are listening in when when you said, oh, I started August 2019, every everybody knows, like, oh my goodness, what a crappy time to start in a church right before all that. But, you know, kind of post Covid, talk us through, you know, what does that look like? You were running about where and then today. And then what I want to do is unpack some of that. So tell us a little bit of that story.
Greg Griffith — Yeah. So, post-Covid, as we came out and really got back up and running we experienced, what every church in America and maybe the world, I think experiences. We we had people that stayed fully engaged. We had new people that came, but we also had a lot of people that left. And so we went from worshiping pre-COVID of around 13-, 1400, to about 750. And so it was about, two years in, we started, I think, 500 and then about, two years into Covid, right around 2022 or so like that, we were like right at that 750 mark and it was like, gosh, we know these are raving fans. We have new people that are on board. They’re loving what we’re doing, but there’s a significant drop here. And, and church just looks different. And so, so what are we going to do? And how do we do this?
Greg Griffith — And so, we really began looking at certain things to say how do we increase our invitability? Because I think one of the the keys that was important for us is we did have a significant portion of people who were new, new to King of Kings. And, kind of had come out and said, I’m like, I’m in for Jesus. Like Covid has taught me that, that I needed something stable and church and Jesus is that. And so they’re actually the dream of like when you have new people, they want to be your number one cheerleaders. They’re ready to tell their neighbors, they’re ready to invite people. So but we needed to say, here’s, here’s the things that are invitable and the things that we can do for those invitability.

Greg Griffith — And so we really began to hone in and say, all right, for our campuses, and at that time, we only had one campus. We, we looked at a couple just really concrete, actionable items that were simple that we could put into place. One of the things I think I had heard on your podcast or heard part of our, our, our incubator group, was that, you know, every one of us, as pastors, always wants people to invite every single weekend. The reality is people aren’t able to invite every single weekend.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Greg Griffith — And so it’s an unrealistic expectation. And if you just keep laying it out there, eventually people go, I can’t do this. So it just becomes white noise to them. And so we really honed into that and we said, all right, let’s find for invitable Sundays and let’s, let’s really dive into this and say, hey, church, we’ve got four and invitable Sundays. We’re asking you to just find two, outside of the Christmas and Easter…

Rich Birch — Right.

Greg Griffith — …but like find two that you go, this really resonates with me, my neighbor, my friend, someone like that. And so we identified four, really big, identifiable Sundays. Big Sundays, as we call them. And then we also, said let’s, let’s press into four non-church invitable events. What are what are four things we can do for the community that aren’t church events, that you can invite someone to that isn’t inviting them to church? Because a church invite is a high bar, and that’s really hard for someone to go to.
Greg Griffith — A back to school event for my kid, which every parent I mean, you know, my kids are all back to school here, this week. And, you know, every parent, my wife, as I was leaving the house the other day, said to me, “Hey, by the way, Greg…” She’s the money person in our family. She goes, “By the way, Greg, it’s been a really expensive month with, shoes and backpacks and this and that, and the other thing. If you could not spend money the rest of the month, that would be great.” And so luckily, I just bought my new running shoes. And so I was like, yeah, I can do that from now on.
Rich Birch — I can do that. Yes.
Greg Griffith — So I think we just really tried to press into, how do we get people to invite into the community? And and then I and then I think the other piece that we really look…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Greg Griffith — Yeah. Go ahead.
Rich Birch — Well, I’d love to lean in on those big days things…

Greg Griffith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …to start there. So, you know, I don’t one of the ways I describe a church like King of Kings, it’s like the it’s like the church of record, like it’s a, it’s a large church that has had, you know, a have a well-established, kind of, for lack of better word, brand or reputation in town that’s positive. People know the church. And Christmas and Easter, I can imagine that those are big days already in the in the life of your church because of that. What would be a couple of those other days that have been particularly helpful for encouraging your people to invite? And what does that look like from your side? Like, what have you done to try to help encourage those?
Greg Griffith — Yeah. So one of our big, big Sundays, we call them is we do something in October. And it’s called Super Sweet Sunday. And so, our, our thing is we actually invite our all the kids. We invite the adults, we invite everyone. We have our our worship team wears them on stage. And so what they do is we say, hey, it’s usually the week before Halloween. And we say, you know what? Come to church in a church friendly, Halloween costume. And, and then we have more candy everywhere. I mean, the entire corridor is with all the candy. The entire kids area gets all the candy. I mean, kids walk out with more candy from church than they do from going out on the evening that that is actually where they’re going neighbor to neighbor and door to door.
Greg Griffith — And, and and really what we want is this is where kids get super excited to come to church. They hear, I can wear my costume to church. And they just think it’s so fun. They invite their friends because they say, hey, why don’t you come with me? and they come to church and they have a great time. So that’s one of them.

Greg Griffith — Another one that we do. Labor Day is always a hard day. And so it’s what we do call a big Sunday. It’s a hard day for the church. And and so what we do on Labor Day, that’s fun, kind of invitable is we actually call it Jersey Sunday. And we have some jerseys that are King of Kings jerseys that people can buy.

Rich Birch — Oh okay.

Greg Griffith — But also we say, wear are your favorite sports jersey. College football’s big in Nebraska. We really still believe that we will win a national championship again in Nebraska, we believe that.
Rich Birch — This is the year! This is the year!
Greg Griffith — Yeah, yeah, we’ve got a God of miracles in Nebraska. So, so we do that. But then the other thing we do that’s, I think a lot of fun is, and it’s a lot of work on our worship teams, but they do it. They will have songs, and they’ve got two songs cued up for each one of our song sections. And the congregation live votes which song they want to sing. And so they do it via texting.
Rich Birch — Oh, wow – that’s fun.
Greg Griffith — Yeah, it’s so fun. People love it. And actually we also love it because we get due their texting, we get their information and can correct either cell phones we don’t have, or add cell phones that we need. So there’s always a piece there.
Rich Birch — Oh that’s good. I like that.
Greg Griffith — Yeah. So so those are those are a couple of our kind of big Sundays that we do. In July, it’s not one Sunday, we actually July we call Sundays are for Sundaes. And so all of July, we just give ice cream away.

Rich Birch — Right.

Greg Griffith — So your kid can have ice cream for breakfast. I can have ice cream for… like, who doesn’t want ice cream for breakfast? Like, we’ve just been told we can’t have this. Well, at church you can. And it’s calorie free…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. I love it.

Greg Griffith — …because, you know, Jesus has made it, turned, He turned water into wine. He can turn ice cream into healthy. So, I’m just kidding. But, you know, so.…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. I love it.

Greg Griffith — …so those are those are the types of things we do. Just super low invitational. And and our goal is we want to attract people that go, hey, you think church is like what you think in your head. Come with me this week. You’re just going to it’s just going to be radically different.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Greg Griffith — And and we know some people will say, well, that wasn’t for me. Some people though, or their kids, they love it. We’ve had many, many families who come and say, our kids say, can we come back? And that’s our goal. We really want kids to say, can we come back?
Rich Birch — Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And you know, your church is has served so well, you know, so strong on the kids ministry front. Definitely, you can see that. What do you say to a leader who is listening in who may not know you? You know, I know the church. You guys love Jesus. You like actually talk from the Bible. You have like actual, you know, like you really want people to take steps towards him.

Greg Griffith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But they hear all this stuff and they’re like, it just all feels very gimmicky. Like I, you know, I are, man, I just why am I a part of it? I wouldn’t, I don’t want to do that stuff. What would you say to a church leader who’s who’s who would say that to you about these kinds of things?
Greg Griffith — Yeah, I do think it’s gimmicky. And I think gimmicks are okay.

Rich Birch — Yes, yeah.

Greg Griffith — I, I’m okay with that. And, and I get it that that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. But I would say this: I think if, if Jesus can use, right, water into wine, if he can use a couple breads, loaves of bread and, and fish and, and if Jesus is always looking to grab people where they’re at and then take them to a step that they didn’t even know they were wanting to go. And it really comes, I think, from our our theology is, you know, I think I really believe everyone everyone wants to love Jesus. They just don’t know it yet. And and so if you can get them in a door to, to have that preconceived notion that they have that they’re not welcome, church isn’t fun, Jesus God doesn’t laugh. Yes he does. I think God laughs all the time, I think. And so so if we can get people to see that, that God is good and God is gracious and God is fun, and that your kids can have fun. And and faith, is not this just kind of what we have in our mindset of like or what we grew up with that we think as a child that probably wasn’t fully true. I think we can.
Greg Griffith — I also I I think when you were on our site visit or I think it was maybe an, in a podcast, I heard with you, right? Every one of us has attraction in some way, right? If you have a sign outside your church, that’s an attraction.

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Greg Griffith — If you clean your bathroom.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Greg Griffith — Like you are saying, we want you to say, this feels nice. Like I can go to the bathroom here. Like that’s attractional. So we’re all attractional to some level. And and I do think you as a church have to just find where is your level, and, and that’s okay. And then and then sometimes I would say if your level is pretty low, maybe, maybe just say, hey, what if we tried one thing, right? What if we…

Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.

Greg Griffith — …what if we tried something, something a little bit different? Maybe, maybe if you live in a beautiful place, like like I used to be in, in Michigan, one of the things they tried is they said, let’s move service in the summer outside because Michigan summers are amazing, right?

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Greg Griffith — And so, yeah, have an outdoor service…

Rich Birch — Right.

Greg Griffith — …like that’s a new attraction, a way to invite someone. So that’s what I would say.
Rich Birch — Yeah that’s good. I love that. I think there’s something to there too about like, hey, you know, if you, if you’ve always done what you’ve always, if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you always got.

Greg Griffith — Right.

Rich Birch — You know, if you just keep repeating what we’ve always done, you’re not going to see new results. And so, you know, trying something new, trying to say like, hey, well, maybe we could take a risk here and do something that maybe makes us a little bit uncomfortable. And and see what happens. You know, I think is, is good advice. I think, you know, at the end of the day, you know, why people arrive as the people arrive at our church for all different kinds of reasons. The question is, when they actually get here, you know, what are they, what are they encountering and they encountering, you know, teaching that points them towards Jesus? Are they encountering a community of people that love them, that want to care for them?
Rich Birch — Let’s talk about those non-church events. You know, back to school. What would be some of those other things that you’ve done as a church that have helped you, you know, become more invitable, help you be the kind of place where people will, you know, invite their their friends and connect with their, their community?
Greg Griffith — Yeah. Our back to school event is a huge invite. And that’s something where we just we give away backpacks and school supplies. It’s grown every year. When we started here at King of Kings, we had just under a thousand people come. Last year, we had about, 1800 to 2000.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Greg Griffith — This year we just had it. We had 3000 people on campus. It just continues to grow and grow. We also do, at our northwest campus, our second campus, they do a, they do a Trunk and Treat, and, invite just congregation and community to, you know, decorate their trunks. And then kids and families can kind of walk around and pick up candy and do things in their costumes. And that started that started with a thousand people on their, their first year doing that. So I’m not sure what it will look like this year, probably even greater.

RIch Birch — Wow!

Greg Griffith — And and our key, so we have two keys in, in all of our community events that we do. First, they have to be free. So that’s just us. We really say if we’re going to invite the community in, we want it to be free. And and so when, and occasionally someone will walk up to one of our staff or me and say, hey, I have some money, can I give a free will donation? And our answer’s: no, you can’t. And they go, why? And we say, well, this is this is our gift from our congregation to the community. And they say, well, how can I do this? And I say, if you want to come on Sunday and put it in the offering plate or you want to give online, you’re welcome to do that. But but this is a free event for our community.
Greg Griffith — And, and then one, I think that that actually is not necessarily a community event, but we’ve seen some really great traction out of it is we do we are we are one of the site locations for the Tim Tebow Foundation Night to Shine. And, people love to serve. And we’ve been noticing we we have more non-church people, and I would say even some just non-Christians, but they have a heart to want to make a difference, especially in the lives of kids and people with developmentally disabilities. And so, so, so that’s been something where people have experienced just a heart of Jesus in a way, that’s for our community, and, and where they’re actually then serving into our community. So those are, those are a few of the things that we do.
Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. We talk about those, you know, community service type events as magnetic community service. This idea of getting people, you know, out of out of their seats and into the streets to actually make some sort of difference. And, you know, people want to be a part of a church that not only makes a difference, but is seen making a difference. And they will, you know, they’ll tell their friends about that. They’ll, they’ll communicate that. And, and the the Tim Tebow Foundation has done just such a good job packaging up that experience into like a… It’s still a ton of work. It’s not like it’s plug and play. It’s not it’s not easy. I don’t want to give that away. It’s a it’s a ton of work, but it is a compelling idea. This idea of like, hey, here’s some kids who don’t, have a prom. And what if you were to provide that experience as a as a church. Like, it’s also a huge volunteer ask, which and, you know, it’s, it’s the kind of thing that people want to be a part of. They want to engage and they want to say, hey, I would I’d love to be, you know, I’d love to do that for sure.
Rich Birch — That’s good. Well, you and I are a part of I lead a thing called the…Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Greg Griffith — Oh, no, no, no, I was just going to piggyback off that, Rich, real quick. I think one of the things we’ve really learned with, especially community events, is asking the question, around our community and our non churchgoers, of what are some things that stress them out, and then how can we do a community event that meets that need? And so the back to school event is there’s a lot of families like like this time is a really expensive time for them. It’s really hard. And for many families living paycheck to paycheck, it just gets really tough.

Greg Griffith — I think the other thing is, you know, we do a Christmas event, and wrapping gifts and getting gifts when your kid is always around. So we’re like, hey, give us your kid. Go shopping for the day. And then when you come back, we’ll wrap the gifts you bought for your children. So so really, how do we… We’ve learned here in Omaha, one of the biggest needs right now is people feel super stressed out. And so we’re saying, how do we alleviate some of that stress and not add on to it through our events? That was all. That’s the last thing I want to say.
Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good. No, that’s good. Well, you you I’m a part of it. I run a thing called Church Growth Incubator, and it’s been such an honor to have you be a part of that. That’s a it’s a one-year coaching experience. Includes, you know, remote calls we do, or two calls a month, and we do two retreats a year. It’s really designed for churches that are wanting to increase their invite culture. We try to provide some kind of consistent coaching feedback, really pressure on this issue, trying to help, you know, help churches ultimately increase, you know, their invite culture. What part of that for you has been the most helpful? When you think of like, oh, hey, this this piece of Church Growth Incubator, this, this part of it has been the part that, man, has has been the most helpful for us through these last couple years, as we’ve been as we’ve been plugged in.
Greg Griffith — You know, I think I would say this, I’m I’m always thankful for anyone that’s willing to pour into another church and expertise that they have. I’m especially thankful, Rich, when it’s in ways that are applicable that can be implemented. And and it’s not like, here’s 45 things. Choose the ones you like. Like that’s too much. It’s really it’s you give actionable steps, and simple things to do, and we do them.

Greg Griffith — So case in point, right around before Christmas in our first year, you asked the question, what is your Christmas recall? And and you said, here’s a couple things I do, right? What is your January series? have that marketed out in your A-frames. have that on your guest information cards. And then and then here’s a couple templates for how to send that out after Christmas Eve to invite people back to the January Sunday.
Greg Griffith — And New Year’s, people have resolutions. And church is always a resolution for those who aren’t attenders. I mean, it’s just one of the ones. It’s like losing weight, right? Like I’m going to lose weight this year, right? I’m going to go to church.

Rich Birch — Right.

Greg Griffith — And so, we employed that. We did, we did. And we plan on that series. We employ that. And the the weekend after Christmas that we meet again is is now in our top five highest Sundays, which before was always a lower Sunday.

Rich Birch — Wow, that’s incredible.

Greg Griffith — But but now it’s just, it’s, it’s right up there. So the, the, the Church Growth Incubator for me has been really helpful because our teams can take a couple things and say, oh yeah, and then put that into place. We’ve changed all of our, our terminology. We’ve, we’ve now gone to, Are you newer here? Right? Rather than necessarily first time guest, or go to our next steps rooms. Now it’s a new here area. And because some people be coming in for a month and you go, are you first time? And they go, no, I’m not a first time. I’ve been here a month, but I haven’t wanted to engage. And so so this this allows them to still do that.

Greg Griffith — We’ve just gone to for, for our newer here people, one of the things we learned was give people options. So now we offer a coffee mug, a water bottle, or a t shirt. And we’re seeing connections of more connections now, people going, Oh, yeah. I would love to pick one of those. Right? Because if I bring another coffee mug to my house, my wife’s going to kill me. So I can’t bring any more coffee mugs, right? You know?

Rich Birch — That’s hilarious. Yeah, sure.

Greg Griffith — But a t-shirt? Man, I love a t shirt. I mean, for some reason people love t-shirts. I don’t know why. So, yeah, it’s been it’s been.
Rich Birch — It’s true. It’s true.
Greg Griffith — This is a been a coaching thing, a coaching incubator, not only where I’ve met really great pastors who are all, have the same mission, mindset and teams that are saying, let’s go and just reach more people for Jesus. But the the actual implementation of ideas, is stuff that we can actually do. And, and that when I bring them to our teams, they don’t go, oh. Like, because as a senior pastor, we can bring ideas and ideas and ideas. But a lot of times we bring ideas and your teams are exhausted already and they’re just like, okay. And they have a pressure.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Greg Griffith — And this has been, hey guys, here’s here’s what we learned today. And they go, oh yeah, we can do that. We just haven’t had that system all fully put out. And so then they do it. And then we see these great results. So, yeah. So today I mean since we’ve been a part of this we’re now worshipping over 1200 people a weekend. So in the last two years…

RIch Birch — That’s amazing.

Greg Griffith — …we’ve had a growth of 500 people, new people. I love it. Our staff continually say, we look around and we’re not we don’t see people we always recognize. And I go, amen. That’s great.
Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. That’s great. Well, it’s it’s super encouraging. It’s encouraging for me as a coach to hear that. And, and, you know, I’m on my personal mission is to help 100 churches grow by a thousand people. And like, I, you know, I’m super, it’s an honor to engage with you guys as you’re on that way, you’re on that path towards, you know, you’re halfway there towards seeing…

Greg Griffith — Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, that kind of growth. And I and I think the trajectory is heading in that direction. When you think about the future, Greg, you kind of look up over the horizon, what are some of those questions you’re asking? What’s kind of coming down the pipe for you at King of Kings? What are some of the things that you’re looking at, looking at or up over the horizon, you know, that you’re wondering about as a leader?
Greg Griffith — Yeah, I think we’re we’re wondering right now about, and actually we’re just really wrestling through this, how do we, as a church lead to be truly a church that honors all generations?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Greg Griffith — I think we’re we’re discovering and I think it’s a subconscious issue. You know, all of us kind of look at, like, right now, boomers are not seen in the greatest light. And and gosh, that’s not honoring. I mean, we’re standing where we stand because of what boomers have paved the way for. And then and then too, it’s really simple to cast shade. Every generation has been cast shade upon by generations above them. And and we’re really saying, I think God’s calling us to honor all generations, right? Love your father and your mother.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Greg Griffith — Right? And so so we’re saying, how do we, as a church, honor all generations and and all households? Single, widowed, empty nest, married with kids, married with no kids, divorced. Like, so so we’re really pressing into how are we, how are we as a church helping one another honor each other, in our world, in their neighborhoods…

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Greg Griffith — …and where they’re called to minister as a priesthood of all believers. So so that’s something we’re really wrestling through. Not only what will Sundays look like for that, but even our language and even who’s on stage. Who’s, you know, who’s on our websites? Who are the pictures? All those things.
Rich Birch — That’s good. I love that. I love the, you know, as a church looks to try to reach, you know, more of its community as you start to wrestle with, like, oh, like, I think, you know, God’s given us a shot here to make a huge impact in Omaha, as you link arms with other churches. And, I love that heart of trying to say, hey, like, maybe, you know, maybe that means we’ve got to figure out how to to broaden who we connect with. Not just like, hey, this is it’s just a church for people with kids. And, you know, if you don’t have kids, forget it, you know, kind of thing. So that’s cool, man. I love that, Greg.
Rich Birch — Well, Greg, I appreciate you, love you, love your church. I love, you know, you’re you have such a huge heart. And it’s it’s fun to see you lead and to see you connect with, you know, with your people. So I just want to honor you today, on the podcast.

Greg Griffith — Thanks, man.

Rich Birch — So thank you so much for that. I want to give you the last word. Anything else you want to say just as we wrap up today’s episode?
Greg Griffith — You know, I think my last word is, I would say I thank you, Rich, because you’ve helped us. And I hope you help many, many more churches figure out how to break through the, the ceiling that they’re at. We all get to a ceiling and we either get to where we say, you know what? This is just who we are, and we get stuck there. Or we get and we say, oh, there’s no way to get to get higher. And we fail and we quit. Or we figure it out. And, I thank you for helping churches like us, and I pray many, many more, to figure it out and to break through that next ceiling. And know when they hit another ceiling, like we’ll hit another ceiling that we know, Okay, we can just figure this out. So so thank you.
Rich Birch — Thank you so much, sir. Appreciate you, appreciate your leadership. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?
Greg Griffith — Yeah, you can track with our church at our website: kingofkings.org. And then on social media, my handles on Facebook and Instagram are @greggriffithleads. And, yeah, and anyone can reach me anytime.

**Building Trust and Unity in a Fast-Growing Church: Drew Karschner’s Insights on Empathy and Authenticity** Sep 05, 2024

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. This week **Drew Karschner** is joining us. He’s the Lead Pastor at **Northridge Church** in Rochester, New York – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country.

While church growth is a blessing, it often comes with hardships that must be navigated carefully. Whether your church is wrestling with racial tensions, political division, or simply difficult life events, your leadership skills and resilience will be tested. Tune in as Drew shares how to foster an environment where all voices are heard, lead with empathy and understanding, and build the resilience of your staff.

**Acknowledge the hard times.** // Church leaders often find themselves in a position where they must balance optimism with realism. You may be trying to cast situations in a hopeful light when people aren’t ready to see it. Acknowledge when things are hard and be honest with your staff and congregation about the challenges they face. Make space for lament and empathize with your congregation’s struggles, but also cast a vision for the future and where God is leading you to go.

**Be open and honest.** // People want their leaders to be real; they know when you aren’t being authentic in your leadership. Drew believes that being real and honest with your congregation helps to bridge the gap between different perspectives within the church.

**Be a “church in the middle.”** // If churches want to grow and reach their communities, by definition they have to get used to a wide variety of people. Rather than taking a polarized stance, Northridge Church seeks to empathize with all the people they shepherd in order to lead them all to Jesus. Listening to different perspectives and engaging in conversations that may be uncomfortable are necessary for growth. This approach has allowed the church to grow in unity and diversity as they strive to represent the entire community.

**Navigate through the pain.** // Leadership can take a toll on you personally, particularly when navigating pain and conflict. Your capacity is often determined by the amount of pain you can endure. Yet Drew expresses that it is a joy to navigate through the pain and see how God uses it on the journey. Similarly, it’s important to maintain relationships and trust even when faced with challenges. Resist the urge to become isolated and stay open to connection and support from others.

**Create open conversations.** // It’s critical to build a resilient team so that you can stand strong together when facing difficult times. Hold open conversations with the church staff so people can talk about their feelings surrounding complex issues. Create a safe space for expression and dialogue to help people heal. Drew also maintains an open-door policy, letting his staff know that he’s available to them.

**Let staff know how valuable they are.** // Staff members want to know they’re valuable. They want to be paid well, but churches don’t always have the budget to give their staff the money they wish they could. However, you can come up with creative ways to let your team know they are appreciated. Northridge Church demonstrates this in a variety of ways, from monthly catered lunches and family retreats, to honoring staff members with sabbaticals for their service, gift cards and more.

You can learn more about Northridge Church at www.northridgerochester.com.

Thank You for Tuning In!

There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please **share** it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re **extremely** **helpful** when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally!

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***Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church***

Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it’s time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it!

**Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church!**

Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Man, I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. You’re gonna wanna lean in for this one. Today, we’ve got Drew Karschner with us. He is the lead pastor at Northridge Church. This is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. And I can tell you, it’s in a part of the country that frankly, they don’t make fast growing churches there. Rochester, New York – they’ve got three locations if if I’m counting correctly, and they aim to make more and better followers of Jesus by creating environments ah for people to belong, ah to belong, sorry belong, believe in Jesus, and become more like him. Ah Drew, so glad you’re here today. Thanks for for being on the show.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, dude, I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Rich Birch — Nice to get a chance to connect. I’ve actually had a little bit of a chance to interact over the years with Northridge. This is a fantastic church. And so I’m pumped to get a chance for to introduce you to some new friends. So kind of fill in the picture. Tell us a bit more about Northridge. Kind of give us the flavor of the church. Kind of tell us a little bit of the story.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, we’re your typical modern church. We got we’re multi-sites. We have three locations. We aim to saturate Rochester with the gospel. We’re growing. It’s amazing to see what what God’s been doing in an area where I feel like the church has been forgotten. Um he’s bringing it what’s cool about Northridge is he’s really bringing people who with no church background and they’re experiencing and getting to know and growing in Jesus. And so, um man, I love it here. Rochester is our home and I love taking back what the what feels like the enemy stole.

Rich Birch — Oh, so good. So good. Well, I know that leading in a fast growing church, it’s just easy all the time. There’s just never any problems. Obviously, that’s tongue in cheek, obviously leading. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your your kind of history with Northridge to kind of set up the context? How long have you been there? Kind of tell us a little bit of that story.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I’ve been at Northridge for about eight years. Um It was really an answer to prayer. I served in the South for 10, 12 years in ministry. And I’m from the North. So Ashley and I started to have kids, and we’re like, okay, God, like it would be awesome if you brought us home. And Northridge was an answer to prayer. And so it’s like you said, it’s just been an easy, amazing eight years, right? Seamless, no problems, perfect picture of what I wanted it to be.

Rich Birch — Yeah, obviously tongue in cheek. There’s obviously always a certain amount of hard stuff that we’ve got to navigate in, ah you know, in any church. But we were joking about this before we got started. I, you know, I think there’s lots of people that say, man, it’d be so great to lead in a fast growing church. I’ve had a chance to do that. But it is ah just a lot of hard work. There’s always seems to be something going on.

Rich Birch — Kind of tell us a bit about that. Give us some context. What would be some of the things that come to mind when you think about navigating kind of difficult situations as a lead pastor of a fast growing church?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, just for the record, I was one of those young bucks who thought leading a a large church would be amazing. And let me just preface this. It is amazing. It’s a blessing from God. But sometimes blessings from God comes through difficulties. And so over eight years, we’ve had to navigate some hardships, right? From, you know, COVID was just a wild, transition disaster of like, what what in the world do we lead? And to make matters worse for me, um my dad died surprisingly two months before COVID ever came out.

Rich Birch — Oh wow.

Drew Karschner — So like, I’m trying to navigate grief and lead a church through a really difficult time from disease to racial tensions. Um We had racial tensions in downtown Rochester. One of the clips on the news was right in our backyard.

Rich Birch — Wow. Okay.

Drew Karschner — Um, so we’ve had a lot of staffing issues…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drew Karschner — …transitions. And so I, you know, when things are going good, I have this running joke with our executive pastor. We’re all like waiting for the shoe to drop. Like what…

Rich Birch — Waiting for the other shoe.

Drew Karschner — …what’s coming next.

Rich Birch — Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s that’s incredible. What about, you know, so when you think about these things, um I’m sure you’ve had a chance to reflect a little bit on them. What would be you know some of your go-to kind of advice or axioms that you would give to another lead pastor or another, you know, leader when they’re trying to navigate some of these? What would be some of those things that kind of come to top of mind for you?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one of the biggest thing I’ve I’ve learned is usually when you’re leading people, there’s two camps, right? You have your half glass full, and you have your half glass empty people, right?

Rich Birch — So true.

Drew Karschner — I am a positive person, okay? And so like, it doesn’t matter what I’m going through, you can ask my wife, my favorite expression is, “the good news is, baby,” because I can see light in any darkness. Here’s the problem when you’re leading people is you might be casting that light and they can’t see it. And so one thing that I’ve learned when you go through a hard thing with a team or a church or a business or whatever it is, you have to be willing to admit it sucks.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — You have to be willing to just be honest with ah you’re the people you’re leading. Like, guys, this is hard. And really meet people in the midst of the hurt or what they’re feeling. Because there have been times where I’ve tried to lead and just just express the positive, express the positive…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …and and I really lost trust because people are wondering, like, does he not see what I’m seeing?

Rich Birch — Right, yeah.

Drew Karschner — Like, is he not feeling what I’m feeling? And you can almost alienate people who are feeling different than you. And so I’ve learned, hey, man, I gotta to be willing to admit the hardship and not try to spin it in a positive way, but just sit in the darkness, right?

Drew Karschner — I think this is scriptural, right? Lamenting is not something we love to do, but it’s something we need to do. And I’ve learned, as a positive person, it’s okay sometimes to just admit when things are hard and difficult.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I can see that tension. I know as a leader, you know, by definition, we’re trying to move people from where they are to ah to a more desirable future. And so we live in the future. We live in the like, hey, how things could be. And when things are negative, part of what our job is to try to cast a vision for a better future.

Drew Karschner — Yep.

Rich Birch — And but if you’re so far out in front of people, man, you can just let people look at you like, who is that guy? That guy’s just not, he doesn’t live in the same world that that you and I live in. How do you, how do you manage that tension? Maybe give us an example of that where you’ve tried to acknowledge where we actually are, but in order, but also try to catch a cast a vision for a better future. What’s that look like?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think just admitting it’s hard, you capture those people, right? I’m not saying, hey, we need to camp out in the darkness and get to a place, like I think people, you can go too far that way as well, where you just depress people and they can’t see.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — So the the hard job as a leader is to help not lead half your church, but all of your church…

Rich Birch — So good.

Drew Karschner — …including people who are negative and people who are positive and say, hey, I’m going to walk with all of you. And if that means I got to admit some things are hard, but I’m also going to say, hey, this is hard, but here’s where we’re going. I’m gonna cast a vision to like, God’s gonna use this; he’s gonna move us to a better place. But some sometimes we have to admit God uses, like almost all the time God uses hardships in our lives…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …to make us more like him. And so you gotta be able to admit the hardship, but cast a vision for the future and where you want people to go. And I think when you do that, you lead everybody, not just people like you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. There definitely seems like there’s a generational thing. I know when I first started in ministry, when I looked at the kind of generation that was ahead of us, um that generation, I think people were actually looking for leaders to be completely disconnected from real life. It was like they were, you know, they were wholly different, where I i don’t think that’s true now. I think people are looking for authenticity.

Drew Karschner — Yeah.

Rich Birch — How do you balance that out as a key ah key leader? Obviously part of what we’re talking about here is this authenticity to kind of acknowledge where we are, but that also bleeds into your teaching, bleeds into, you know, when you communicate. What, how does authenticity work out in your, in your leadership?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I’m you get what you get, right? Whether you like it or not.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — And I’m real. I think you’re right. I think the culture is shifting and people just want real, authentic you. And when you’re not that, they can tell. They’re really good at being like…

Rich Birch — Yeah, they can smell that for sure.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, you’re faking it.

Drew Karschner — And so I just be me, right? And God wired me the way I am. And I’m an emotioner, emotional guy, I’m a feeler. And so when I feel something, people are going to see it in my face, they’re gonna, they’re gonna see it in my expressions. And so I am real, when I lead. And so when things are hard, I’m just like, guys, this, this is hard. And man, I don’t want to be here. When things are good, I’m gonna you’re gonna see it in my face, I’m gonna be full of joy. I’m gonna walk around joking. And so I’m like, If I got a bad day, there’s going to be times where people are like, you’re having a bad day.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — I’m not going to try to spin things. And I’ve learned that. When I was a young, insecure leader, I think I think some of it is we have to be secure leaders, right? And we have to be OK leading people from a place of hurt or pain and letting them in into that. And I think some people are afraid to do that. I was when I was younger, right?

Drew Karschner — I wanted people to like me. I wanted them to think like, oh, everything is, you know, rainbow peeking unicorns. Everything’s good. Um but what I failed to realize is people saw past that anyway. So I might as well let them in and see what what the real Drew is feeling and going through.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Okay. That’s so good. I love that. That’s a great word, uh, for folks, you know. Hopefully we can go there, hopefully our our relationship can sustain this. You know, so many of our churches over the last number of years have been navigating, um, you know, racial injustice in our, in our communities. And, you know, as you, you mentioned this, you know, right off the top, obviously Rochester was, was on all our news stories, you know, for a long time there in, particularly in 2020. And then. But, you know, that those issues, I know when we’re we’re not in the kind of the heat of it or not in the neighborhood where those things are going on, it can kind of slip out of our mind and be like, okay, that was something that happened.

Rich Birch — I’m sure leading, you know, that has has been a continued dynamic for your church. Unpack what that looked like for you. What did you learn through that, you know, that this season? I don’t want to talk about this, even bringing this up, at it’s like, how do I talk about this in a way that’s you know that’s appropriate, but I’d love to learn from you. I think so many leaders that we’ve I’ve talked to over the last number of years, when we say, hey, what are the things we’ve wrestled through? This has been an issue. This is in um, you know, this is on their list of stuff they’re wrestling with. Obviously unique situation where where you are in Rochester. Ah talk to us about that.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one of the greatest things I learned was the value of having different perspectives in my life.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — Disagreeing perspectives. I think our culture has just gotten to the place where we dig our heels in the camp that we live in.

Rich Birch — Oh, it’s good.

Drew Karschner — And we only surround ourselves with people who affirm what we already believe. And one thing that I did during this whole unrest was like, man, I’m going to hear from different sides. And what it did is it allowed me to empathize with all the people that I shepherd, right?

Drew Karschner — I have ah, like one of my big passions is leading all of my church. And we we’re in Rochester, so we have all kinds of people who believe different things about different different areas of topics. And so I called ourselves the church in the middle. We weren’t we weren’t going to pick a side. We were going to stand up, empathize with everybody to lead everybody to Jesus.

Rich Birch — That’s good, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — And so I think it’s really important to be able to hear opposing sides and being able to say, hey, what what’s the chicken and what’s the bones and and and leave some on the table…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Drew Karschner — …and just be okay. People are afraid to read people who they disagree with. And I just think it it makes us shallow.

Rich Birch — Well, and there’s no doubt that’s a dynamic that I think many of our churches are facing as we grow, which is we we have to get used to a wide variety of people. We want our churches to be an expression of our community, which means by definition, we can’t narrowcast.

Drew Karschner — Right.

Rich Birch — We can’t just be like, hey, we’re going to be assert. And we’ve seen some churches do this in the last number of years where they’ve pivoted one way or the other. And Uh, part of what I admire about your church is you’ve tried to say, like you say, their church in the middle, we’re trying to be a place for all of Rochester. Um, which I think is really commend commendable.

Rich Birch — How have you been able to do that? It’s like, ah you know, I was talking to a friend recently that was wrestling with similar issues and I was like, I to them, this wasn’t to you. I said, you know, I feel like you’re trying to get people to move, to walk across the road, but you’re, so you’re now stuck in the middle and it’s like just trying to dodge cars. Um, how have you been able to, to lead in that space? You know, what has there been anything, you know, that you’ve been kind of, as you’ve been processing and learning that has kind of enabled you to continue to, uh, you know, to lead well in that, like you say, and you know, church for everybody.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think the one thing I’ve learned is being in the middle is the most painful place…

Rich Birch — Oh yeah. Good.

Drew Karschner — …because you got people yeah people shooting you at both sides, right?

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true.

Drew Karschner — So it’s not a fun place to be, um but I think it’s the right place to be, at least for our context. I think some people, maybe it would be different. Um but I think being in the middle allowed us to speak to both sides, to guide both sides, not just speak to one side of of the coin or whatever the argument was.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — And I think it gave us influence um in both camps. And what was beautiful is we saw God grow our church in unity and diversity, which was something that we’d been praying for. And so we stood up for—it was so hard—but like we stood up for cops and minorities at the same time.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — We we didn’t we weren’t like, we’re gonna, we’re not picking sides here. We we clearly said that.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Drew Karschner — Like no, we’re not picking sides. We’re going to stand up for both people because both people deserve it. And so I think people appreciated the realness and the authenticity and the fight we had for everybody.

Rich Birch — Well, they’ yeah, and it’s a very Jesus approach. You know, I commend you on that. You know, we know this, that people, when they would have looked at Jesus’s closest group of friends, his followers, they would have said, those people don’t belong together.

Drew Karschner — Right.

Rich Birch — Like those, that is a crowd of people who don’t normally hang out. And I love that you’re trying to live that out, um you know, in in today. Were you going to say something else, sir? I think I cut you off.

Drew Karschner — No, you’re good. I was just gonna say in that journey, I’ve had to deal with a lot of pain.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — And I think that’s one thing I’ve also learned in leadership is like, the, your your capacity of leadership is ultimately the amount of pain that you can endure. My mentor told me that and I was like, Oh, wait. Do I want to do this? But…

Rich Birch — Yes! Yes, true.

Drew Karschner — It is a joy, honestly, to navigate pain and see how God uses it. And to stand up at the end of the day and be like, that was worth it. Man, God used that.

Rich Birch — Well, why don’t we talk about that then on the personal level? You know, I love that Sam Chan idea for sure that you’ve brought up. What what have been some of the practices, some of the habits, some of your go to ways that are healthy ah to deal with the pain that you’ve experienced in leadership over these years?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, ah one of the things that I’ve tried to do is not stop trusting people.

Rich Birch — So good.

Drew Karschner — In ministry, um it’s so easily to become isolated and alone. And when you’re isolated and alone, when you walk through pain, it just it it causes you to become recluse and introverted. And what I’ve learned is I can’t allow myself to do that. No matter how much pain, no matter how much people have maybe turned their back on me, walked away, said hard things, I constantly have to open myself up to relationships because I need them to help me navigate and to pray for me as I lead our church.

Drew Karschner — And so one of the things that is so hard for me is trust. But God keeps teaching me I have to trust the right amount of people and the right people and because I I need them as much as they need me.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I know our friend, Carey Nieuwhof, talks about the fact that, you know, when you’re leading for any amount of time in a local church, there is, ah I think the phrase he uses, unreconciled loss, ah you know, ah unreconciled relational loss, where you you get used to, like, people just leave, or they you know they they storm out and they they really have no intention of wanting to ever reconcile with you. And that, man, you’ve got to deal with that. If you don’t, you’ll end up in a really a really negative place. So, that’s good.

Rich Birch — What about your staff team? In the midst of all of this, it’s one thing for you to be in a healthy place, it’s one thing for you to be able to deal with the pressure. How have you been able to bring your your team along in navigating hard things? What have been some of those practices that have been helpful, as you’ve looked at with the you know the people that you’re you’ve been given to lead?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one thing that we’ve done pretty well is when we do face hard stuff staff-wide, we have open conversations. So we gather everybody together and we just say, guys, how are you feeling about this?

Drew Karschner — How are you processing this? And we we literally, and we’ve we’ve spent, you know, two hours in the room just letting people express, ask questions. You know, hey, this is a safe place and these are hard things. And so um and then we we, outside that large group, we give people a chance to say, hey, if you need to talk to anybody, you know, I have an open door policy. I think every pastor says that, but I genuinely like, dude, I’ll cancel any meeting for our staff, right?

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — They they they to me, they’re my family. Um I’ve lived far away from family, and so the church staff has become my family when I was away from family. And so, man, I love our staff. I deeply, genuinely care for our staff, more than they probably know, and I should probably tell them more. Um but anything and everything, you just come talk to me and I’ll I’ll fight for you. I’ll I’ll cry with you. I’ll mourn with you. We’ll laugh together. Whatever you need, I want to be that for you. And so we just have open dialogues. We try to build a culture of you know just honesty and openness. And I think it’s allowed us to heal and just talk about hard things.

Rich Birch — Talk to me about what that looks like with with, I don’t know whether it’s rhythms or like, how often are you meeting, that sort of thing. That I know, you know, you talk about the family feel, I think we can have that early on in our churches, but as we grow, man, that’s hard to sustain, because you know the the family, it’s like the the family becomes a family business, becomes some sort of organism, then becomes an organization, then becomes a corporation. Like It’s very hard to fight that trend.

Drew Karschner — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Um how what’s that look like for you? How are you kind of keeping connected? Because your church is, you know, you continue to grow and add new people and add staff and all that. So talk us through that. What’s that look like?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I mean, you’re definitely right. The the larger you get, the larger your staff gets, the harder it it does get. And so I think you got to just put systems in place. One of the systems I’ve put in place, as I told my assistant, you need to schedule me time to float, right? To just go knock on staff doors…

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — …and be like, yeah hey, how’s it going? How are you? Um we meet as a staff, you know. We have a staff meeting once a week, and so our our whole staff is together. We rub shoulders.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Drew Karschner — We have donuts. We have we actually have a lunch together once a month, so all staff…

Rich Birch — Okay.

Drew Karschner — We have lunch. It’s made. We bring it in, and we do training there. Um I’m a relational guy. So I feel for the lead pastor or the, you know, business owner who’s an introvert, I love people. Right? I’m in ministry because I genuinely love being around people.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — And so for me, being around our staff as much as I physically can within my job parameters is a joy to me. Um I think it’s one of my gifts. I’m a relational guy. And so I try to be around as much as I can. But I’ll be honest, right? I think there are some staff members that wish probably they had more time with me…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …or or whatever. And that’s why I try to at our staff meetings, and I need I honestly need to do a better job of reminding them: guys, if you need anything, my door is always open. Come see me. I’m available to you.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. There is something about even just the like creating space, like you’re saying at staff meetings at once a month, kind of something a little more casual, having a meal together. I remember years ago, lead pastor I worked for, we were doing um, you know, it was like, we were serving a staff lunch, just, you know, it was like a buffet kind of thing. And I, it really stuck with me. He, he kicked this person off of serving and it was like, no, no, let me do that, I want to be… And a part of the reason why for that is, Hey, he wanted to see every single person as they went through, here’s your, whatever lettuce or whatever it was that he was, you know, dishing out. It’s like, uh, it would have been easy for him to just sit, sit on the side, talk to, you know, his other lead team folks or whatever.

Rich Birch — Uh, but he was going on his way to say, no, I want to make myself available. That’s, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s so good. Uh, good, good stuff.

Drew Karschner — One thing we do too is we do a staff retreat. So we’re getting ready to do it. We do two days in the Adirondacks.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice.

Drew Karschner — And we don’t we don’t schedule anything.

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — So like it is basically, it’s for you, your spouse and your family. So you bring your kids, you bring the whole family.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow.

Drew Karschner — And we want to just be together.

Rich Birch — Wow.

Drew Karschner — So we’re playing volleyball. I got no problem smashing a volleyball and in staff members faces, right? Like talking trash. Some of that is just builds that camaraderie, being together, eating together.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Drew Karschner — You know, something that we’ve, it’s expensive, but it’s it’s worth the dollars that it builds back into our team, and and the trust it builds just being present with each other.

Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s talk about that. That’s that’s incredible. I love that. I that’s ah what a cool thing. But that touches a bigger issue around, you know, generosity with staff. I’m sure it’s not just this thing in general, you’re trying to… I feel like there’s a balance in all that stuff. We’re always trying to figure out like, hey, you know, how do we how do we find ways to be generous to our people, you know, you know, it’s not just paying them while it’s all this, the kind of the full thing. What does that look like for you guys? How does that fit in your head around it? And what’s the connection between that and, and building a resilient team that can, that can deal with all this hard stuff when it comes?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I think one thing I’ve learned leading staff members is one of the biggest things they they want to know is that they’re valuable. And we often, you know, equal value to dollars and cents, but I’m not sure that’s accurate, right?

Drew Karschner — Obviously, people want to be paid well. So we we do our best. You know, I think some people lead from a place of being stingy. I just lead like, hey, I want to give as much as I can to our team and honor them.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Drew Karschner — I want them to feel valuable. But let’s be honest, we’ve we’ve served on ministry teams.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drew Karschner — We always wish we had more money.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Drew Karschner — Like the budget is the budget.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Drew Karschner — So we’ve come up with creative ways to tell our staff they’re valuable. So like right now, um our worship pastor is on a five week sabbatical. And so we’ve created a system at 10 years, you get a sabbatical.

Rich Birch — That’s great.

Drew Karschner — It doesn’t cost us anything, but it allows us to say, “You’re valuable to us.” We do anniversaries, we give away stuff, we play games together. We just try to build a culture that just constantly reminds our team, whether it’s dollars and cents, a gift card, a trip: we love you, you’re valuable to us.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah. And there’s something there around, you know, that I think a lot of times the comp… the pay compensation can just get lost in the, you know, you know, and an extra 500 bucks or whatever. It just doesn’t really go anywhere. But man, if you give that as like like you’re saying a gift or, uh, you know, something for the family or, you know, some sort of special experience to someone, man, that goes a long way. It, it, it seems it grabs people, people’s attention more. That’s uh, yeah, that’s really good. Good stuff.

Drew Karschner — Another thing I do, Rich, I think this might be one of the most impactful things I do at Christmas time. So we, if we do, we give out bonuses. I shoot a personal video to the family.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s great.

Drew Karschner — It’s about two to three minutes long where I just honor their family, and I just speak from my heart. I’m not, it’s not, it’s not to say it’s different for every person, and I just tell them how much I value them, what I’ve seen from them in their year. You know, it’s what I call the new handwritten card. Because we have video, I’m a communicator. I hate writing on a card. It’s my handwritten video card to them, just literally honoring them.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Drew Karschner — And I’ve gotten so much like good feedback from our team being like, you don’t know how much those words you said that my wife listened to meant to our family.

Rich Birch — Oh, that’s, yeah, I I get choked up just thinking about that. That’s amazing. I love that. Like when you think about like somebody that’s serving out your staff on their staff and their kids get to see you, the lead pastor, honor their their mom or dad who’s serving on your team. And man, let’s talk about a context shifter for them. Like I know a mom or dad’s hardworking and they love their work, but the you know the person that’s in charge of that organization slowed down and said, hey, this is why I love you know, whoever this person is that’s serving on the team. That’s amazing.

Drew Karschner — Yeah. We get, we get the kids gifts as well.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.

Drew Karschner — So like when it comes to Christmas time, we’re not just blessing the employer because ministry is a family thing.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so true.

Drew Karschner — And so we want to break that PK mold.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — I want the kids of our team to be like, I’m a pastor’s kid. And at my church…

Rich Birch — Right.

Drew Karschner — …that means something awesome. Not like, aw…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Drew Karschner — …I got to, my dad’s got to do this. You know, my mom’s got to do this.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. That’s so cool. Well, Drew, this has been a great conversation today. Is there anything else you’d love to say just we wrap up around this whole thing around how, as a lead pastor, are you you know really handling, navigating some of the hard stuff that comes your way, or or or just anything in general, really, as we’re wrapping up today’s conversation?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I mean, I think through all the hard things, I’ve been reminded, man, we serve a God who’s so faithful. And through the hardship, like God’s always there with you. He walks with you through the hard things. And man, over and over again, as I see hard things coming over the horizon, man, I just know I’m not alone. I am not alone.

Rich Birch — Amen.

Drew Karschner — And what a, what a gift that is to walk with a God who sees the storm before it comes.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. Thank you so much, Drew. Appreciate you being here. If we want to send people online to connect with you or with the church, where do we want to send them for that?

Drew Karschner — Yeah, you can go to NorthridgeRochester.com. Our emails are there. I mean, you can connect with me at my email, send me a text message, whatever. I’m um i’m open to whatever you contact, so.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks so much, Drew. Appreciate you being here today, sir. Thank you.

Drew Karschner — Yeah, I appreciate you.

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Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kerri-Ann Hayes today. In addition to being a senior consultant at Ministry Architects, Kerri-Ann has worked in children’s and family ministry for over 20 years and has a heart for making churches more inclusive for families with special needs. At our churches we want […]

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Community First: How Century Church is Redefining Outreach and Church Spaces with Patrick Quinn Jul 25, 2024

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Mastering Communicating Change in Your Ministry with Dawn Nicole Baldwin Jul 11, 2024

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dawn Nicole Baldwin from Mavericks, an organization which helps churches be more effective in their communications. Is there a major change your church is thinking about, but you’re not sure how to communicate it? How do you ensure that your messages are aligned […]

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Elevating Your Church’s Funding to New Heights with Phil Ling Jun 27, 2024

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Beyond Sundays: Liquid Church’s 24/7 Ministry Model with Lauren Bercarich Jun 20, 2024

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Setting Roots, Spurring Growth: Thriving New Campus Location Growth with Aaron Stanski & Aaron Mora Jun 13, 2024

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The Discipleship Opportunity: Blueprint for a Post-Everything Church with Daniel Im Jun 06, 2024

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The Staff Health Puzzle: How Central Christian Operationalizes Alignment with Joe Platania May 30, 2024

Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Joe Platania today, the Executive Pastor of Human Resources, Staff Development, and the Central Leadership Institute at Central Christian Church in Arizona. Maintaining a healthy staff culture at a growing church is no small feat, particularly when you have multiple campuses. How do you lay […]

From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Most Churches’ First Steps May 29, 2024

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Beyond Accessibility: Gail Ewell’s Vision for Church Inclusivity May 23, 2024

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Key Takeaways from XPS 2024: Navigating Organizational Doubt, Leadership Stages & Target Audiences May 22, 2024

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Vision to Reality: How Executive Pastors Shape the Church’s Future with Phil Taylor May 16, 2024

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From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Engagement Pathway Best Practices May 15, 2024

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Exploiting Limits for Church Growth: Insights from A Better Theory’s Nathan R. Elson May 09, 2024

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The Four Key Factors of Magnetic Community Service That Drive Invite Culture May 08, 2024

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Calling the Next Gen to Leadership: Insights on Empowering Emerging Changemakers with Brad Dreibelbis May 02, 2024

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From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Understanding New Guest Metrics May 01, 2024

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40 Day All-In Campaigns for Your Church: Unleashing Discipleship & Growth with Zach Zehnder Apr 25, 2024

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5 Counterintuitive Truths About Hiring for Church Leadership Apr 24, 2024

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Volunteering as Mission: Cultivating a Culture of Engagement with Mary Ann Sibley Apr 18, 2024

Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mary Ann Sibley, church leader cheerleader and volunteer ministry ninja who works to make you look like the hero as you improve your volunteer culture. Does it ever feel like there’s a lack of ownership when people serve at your church? How do you […]

From 1,000 to 2,000 in 1,000 Days: Key Metrics for Explosive Church Growth Apr 17, 2024

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Embracing the Future with Humility: Community Christian’s Leadership Succession with Ted Coniaris Apr 11, 2024

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Attention Economy: Understanding Its Impact On Your Church’s Mission Apr 10, 2024

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Redemptive Poverty Work: Transforming Urban Communities Through Faith with Rev. Dr. Alvin Sanders Apr 04, 2024

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Easter 2024 Stats Exposed: Insights Your Church Can’t Afford to Ignore Apr 03, 2024

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The Jewish Road: Uniting Act 1 and Act 2 of Our Faith Journey with Matt Davis Mar 28, 2024

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From Vision to Reality: Crafting a Future Where More People Meet Jesus with Paul Alexander Mar 21, 2024

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m joined by Paul Alexander, the Executive Pastor at Sun Valley Community Church in Arizona. As church leaders, sometimes we can have a natural aversion to strategic planning. Yet we see in the scriptures, from beginning to end, that God has a plan. And He wants […]

Leading Through Growth: Executive Pastor Roundtable with Jeremy Peterson, Kayra Montañez, & Jesse DeYoung Mar 20, 2024

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Wonderful: Charting the Path to Fulfillment in a World Overflowing with Options with Travis Spencer Mar 14, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we have with us Travis Spencer, the lead pastor at The Fields Church in Mattoon, Illinois. We’re talking with Travis about his book Wonderful: How to Live a Fulfilled Life in a Very Full World. Have you ever thought about writing a book? Tune in as Travis discusses […]

Bridgetown’s Pivot from Livestream to Local: Kenny Jahng & Rich Birch Discuss Mar 13, 2024

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Unlocking Generosity and Engagement: Key Takeaways from Church Growth Incubator Retreat Mar 07, 2024

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From Attendance to Engagement: Zach Interviews Rich About Transforming Your Church’s Growth Strategy Feb 29, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m happy to sit down with Zach Zehnder, who runs an organization called Red Letter Living. The mission of Red Letter Living is to challenge all people to become greater followers of Jesus Christ. Thousands of individuals and hundreds of churches have taken one of their 40-day discipleship […]

The Diffusion of Innovation Curve and Leading Change at Your Church Feb 28, 2024

In the dynamic landscape of church leadership, the concept of change is both inevitable and essential. As leaders, our mission extends beyond merely maintaining the status quo; it involves steering our congregations toward a brighter, more engaging future. This journey of transformation, however, is far from straightforward. It demands a nuanced understanding of how change […]

FILO: Empowering Technical Artists in Your Church with Todd Elliott Feb 22, 2024

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Church Merger Tactic: Expanding Your Church’s Reach with “The Letter Method” Feb 21, 2024

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From Downturn to Turnaround to Steady Growth in a Rural-ish Community with Joseph Berkobien Feb 15, 2024

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Joseph Berkobien, the Lead Pastor of Frankenmuth Bible Church in Frankenmuth, Michigan. Transitions in leadership can be challenging times for churches. How do you recover and grow after a season of decline? Tune in as Joseph shares the turnaround story of […]

Reflections on Christian Ministry at the Halfway Point with Jon Thompson Feb 08, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jon Thompson, the lead pastor at Sanctus Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Being a Christian leader is a marathon, not a sprint. In the middle of the social media and the politics and the pressures and the fear and the questions, we can be tempted to […]

From Eye Rolls to Engagement: Boosting the Effectiveness of Your Church’s Announcements Feb 07, 2024

This episode tackles a critical yet often overlooked aspect of church services: announcements. Far from being mere placeholders, announcements have the potential to drive engagement within your church significantly. We start with a relatable discussion on why church announcements typically induce eye rolls rather than enthusiasm. Recognizing this issue is the first step towards transformation. […]

Protecting Your Church’s DNA: Jon Delger on Building Culture Within a Fast-Growing Church Feb 01, 2024

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From First Fifty to New Frontiers: Mike Signorelli on Moving Your People to Deeper Levels of Commitment Jan 25, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Signorelli, Lead Pastor at V1 Church – one of the fastest-growing churches in the country with locations in New York City and other cities across the country. Are you feeling stuck moving people at your church to increasing levels of commitment? Wondering how to manage […]

Revitalizing Invitation: Strategies for Engaging Your Church Community Jan 24, 2024

Today’s episode is unique and particularly close to our hearts as we address a question from one of our listeners, Drew Williams, head pastor at New Life Lutheran Church. This direct engagement with our audience not only reinforces our community’s interconnectedness but also grounds our discussion in real-world church leadership scenarios. Drew’s church, nestled in […]

Pastoral Transitions: Matt Davis on Best Practices in Moving Members Off Your Team Jan 18, 2024

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. This week we are talking to Matt Davis, the President and Chief Pastoral Officer at Pastoral Transitions. This ministry exists to help churches love and support their outgoing pastors and their families. They provides transition services to help pastors continue their life ministry for building God’s kingdom. Every pastor […]

Doubling Impact: Navigating the Shift from One to Two Church Services Jan 17, 2024

Why add another service? Growth and multiplication are signs of a healthy church. This isn’t just about getting more people in seats in the building; it’s about creating new opportunities for reaching out, engaging more volunteers, and widening your church’s impact. Remember, every empty seat is a missed opportunity to change a life. Breaking the […]

Fast-Growing Follow Up: Insights from Pantano Christian Church’s Growth with Trevor DeVage Jan 11, 2024

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m talking with Trevor DeVage, the lead pastor at Pantano Christian Church in Tuscon, Arizona. Trevor has talked with us before and is back sharing how to recognize opportunities at your church and embrace best practices to create space for growth. You can learn more about Pantano […]

Beyond the Budget: Innovative Ways to Increase Church Revenue Jan 10, 2024

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Executive Pastor Profile: Sam Beatty from Grace Church, Cleveland Jan 04, 2024

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2024 Unpredictions: Timeless Church Leadership Challenges & Solutions Jan 03, 2024

As we step into the fresh possibilities of 2024, it’s vital for church leaders to discern between fleeting trends and enduring challenges. In this episode of the unSeminary Podcast, we delve into the “2024 Unpredictions,” a guide to the timeless challenges and solutions that will shape church leadership this year. Core Themes: While we embrace […]

Digital Rabbi: Unlocking Your Purpose and Passion with Sats Solanki Dec 28, 2023

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Lessons from Christmas: Elevating Your Church’s Impact Dec 26, 2023

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Persevering After Being Fired by Your Church: Kyle Isabelli Reflects on His Journey Dec 21, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with repeat guest, Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor from Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Did you know that as many as one third of people working in church ministry will be forced to resign or be fired from their position? If you’ve ever […]

Beyond Predictions: Increasing Generosity at Your Church Amidst Economic Fog Dec 19, 2023

As we step into 2024, churches face a unique challenge amidst a mixed economic outlook. With predictions ranging from robust growth to stagnation, it’s crucial for church leaders to focus on effective revenue generation strategies. One key area that offers significant potential is the enhancement of offering talks. Understanding the Economic Landscape The economic forecasts […]

Why Your Team Should Do a 90 Day Bible Reading Challenge (& How!) with Mary DeMuth Dec 14, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mary DeMuth today, an international speaker, podcaster, and author of nearly fifty books. You may have read through the Bible in a year, but have you considered reading the entirety of scripture in just 90 days? In today’s conversation, Mary shares how this 90-day challenge started […]

The January Bump: Game-Changing Perspective on Christmas Attendance Targets for Your Church Dec 13, 2023

A New Metric for Success: The January Bump Traditionally, we judge the success of our Christmas services by the number of attendees. But what if we shifted our focus to what I like to call the ‘January bump’? Imagine measuring success not just by the numbers during Christmas but by the increase in attendance we […]

The Chosen: Stan Jantz on Reaching 1 Billion People, Ministry Innovation & Helping Your Church Dec 07, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re happy to be talking with Stan Jantz today, the Chief Executive Officer of The Come and See Foundation. In partnership with ministries around the world, Come and See is on a mission to share the authentic Jesus with 1 billion people worldwide. Throughout history, followers of […]

Residency Reflections: Saddleback Church’s Brittany Crimmel on Her Leadership Pathway So Far Nov 30, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brittany Crimmel, a Production Director at Saddleback Church in California. There is a leadership crisis in the local church with so many churches struggling to know how to find and develop people. However, by participating in internships and residencies, churches can contribute to developing the […]

Behind the Leader: Ian Borkent’s Journey of Burnout and Relaunch Nov 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Ian Borkent from C3 Rivers Church in the Netherlands. Ian also started the ministry Grow a Healthy Soul to help church leaders take care of their souls. Church leaders often focus on metrics such as attendance, salvations and finances to gauge the health of their church, […]

Secrets of Top Team Players: Insights from 30,000 Leaders & William Vanderbloemen Nov 16, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking again with William Vanderbloemen, the founder and CEO of Vanderbloemen Search Group, an organization that helps identify executive talent and matches value-based organizations with like-minded people. When it comes to hiring the best people, what factors cause them to shine? How can you learn to identify […]

Talking with Your Lender: Mark Briggs Offers Insider Advice for Growing Churches Nov 09, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mark Briggs, the Executive Vice President of Ministry Lending at CDF Capital. CDF Capital is dedicated to helping churches solve problems and bridge the financial gap often faced when trying to expand and reach more people. Mark has been with CDF for over 20 years, helping churches […]

Guest-Friendly Environments: Aaron Stanski on Effective Facilities for Your Church Nov 02, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Stanski, the founder and CEO of Risepointe, with fifteen years of church design and ministry leadership experience. Do you feel frustrated with your church building, or like it’s holding you back from fulfilling your mission? Aaron’s experience has given him unique insights into the common […]

Increasing the Generosity Culture at Your Church with Phil Ling Oct 26, 2023

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Phil Ling, a renowned expert on generosity in the church and founder of The Giving Church. Did you know that in the average church in North America, 45% of the people that give a church money give less than $200 […]

Increase Engagement with Data-Driven Strategies: Ronee de Leon on Unlocking Your Church Database’s Potential Oct 19, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Ronee de Leon, the Director of Executive Project Management from Grace Fellowship, a multisite church in Ohio. Many churches have some sort of church management software and mountains of data. But figuring out how to make it actionable so you’re connecting with your […]

Mission Trips vs. Strategic Visits: Nathan Nelson on Transformational International Partnerships for Your Church Oct 12, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nathan Nelson, Pastor of Mission and Outreach at Bethany Community Church in the Seattle, Washington region. Do you ever feel like short-term missions trips actually push against creating deep, lasting change in the communities you serve? Tune in as Nathan shares how to move beyond the […]

Engagement Pathway: Greg Curtis & Tommy Carreras on Best Current Practices on Assimilating People at Your Church Oct 05, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Greg Curtis and Tommy Carreras. Greg is the Pastor of Guest Engagement at Eastside Christian Church, a multisite church in California, Nevada, and Minnesota. He’s also founder of Climbing the Assimalayas, a website focused on helping churches design an engagement pathway that fosters connection, enables […]

Transforming Team Culture: Karen Berge’s Insider View on the Shift from Unhealthy to Thriving Sep 28, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Karen Berge, the Executive Pastor of Ministry at Flatirons Community Church. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country with five physical campuses in Colorado as well as church online. Many churches are able to say there are good things happening there. […]

How to Leverage AI for Your Church & Your Future with Kenny Jahng Sep 21, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the second of a two-part series (you can listen to part one of the podcast here) with Kenny Jahng, an expert when it comes to using AI in the church, and the founder of Big Click Syndicate. In today’s episode we’re delving into the implications of […]

How Your Church Can Have the Best Year-End Ever with Kenny Jahng Sep 14, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today’s podcast is the first of a two-part series with my friend, Kenny Jahng, the founder of Big Click Syndicate which helps cause-driven organizations get their messages in front of the right audiences. Did you know the last 45 days of the year are crucial for charitable giving? Because […]

Fostering Community in a Fast-Growing Multi-Campus Ministry: Scott Freeman on Effective Pastoral Care Sep 07, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scott Freeman, the Pastor of Community at Grace Church in South Carolina. As a church expands, there is a constant tension to manage between growth and deep community. Grace Church has experienced significant growth over the years with ten campuses and over 250 community […]

The Future of Faith is Child-Friendly: Stephen Moore on WinShape Camps for Communities Aug 31, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to be talking with Stephen Moore, the Director of WinShape Camps for Communities. WinShape, an organization started in 1985 by Truett Cathy, the founder of Chick-fil-A, started as a college program and has since grown into five different ministries, with focuses on professional development, marriages, […]

He Gets Us: Kyle Isabelli on Reaching Out to Non-Christians with Gloo Aug 24, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kyle Isabelli, the lead pastor of Avenue Christian Church in the western suburbs of Chicago. Wondering how to connect with hurting people in your community who might not venture through your church’s doors? In today’s episode Kyle and I have a fantastic conversation […]

Faith Forward: Fr. Peter Wojcik on Strategies for Engaging Millennials, Gen Z, & Gen Alpha in the Church Aug 17, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we are joined by Father Peter Wojcik, pastor at Saint Clement Parish in Chicago. Do you struggle to engage Gen Z in your church? Do you want to invite younger generations into ministry, but aren’t sure where to start? Saint Clement is a dynamic Catholic community in the […]

From Struggle to Success: Evan Courtney on Revitalizing a Church Campus Amidst Challenges Aug 10, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Evan Courtney, the Executive Pastor at The Fields Church in central Illinois. Have you ever experienced decline in your church or felt like everything was going wrong? Don’t miss this encouraging conversation as Evan testifies to the power of perseverance, overcoming obstacles that lead […]

Uniting the Church to Quench the Global Water Crisis: A Conversation with Mike Mantel Aug 03, 2023

Thanks for tuning into today’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Mike Mantel, the CEO of Living Water International. They are a faith-based global humanitarian organization that links arms with churches around the world to serve thirsty communities through access to safe drinking water, sanitation, and hygiene. What if the church of Jesus Christ could end […]

Nurturing the Spirit of Advent with Families at Your Church: Chris Pappalardo & Clayton Greene on the GoodKind Approach Jul 27, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Chris Pappalardo and Clayton Greene from The Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina. Chris is Editor on the Creative Arts team and Clayton is the Summit Collaborative Director. Have you started planning for Christmas yet at your church? Are you looking for a way to help […]

The Art of Working with (Almost) Anyone: Michael Bungay Stanier Offers Coaching For You As You Lead At Your Church Jul 20, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with coach and writer Michael Bungay Stanier, who is best known for his book, The Coaching Habit, which is the bestselling coaching book of the century. We all know that not all work relationships can be perfect, but how can we improve them? In today’s episode, Michael […]

The Resilience Factor: Insights from Léonce B. Crump Jr. & Warren Bird on Unbreakable Teams Jul 13, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Léonce B. Crump Jr. and Warren Bird. Léonce is an author plus the co-founder and senior pastor of Renovation Church in Atlanta. Warren is a repeat guest on unSeminary. He works for the Evangelical Council for Financial Ability (ECFA) and is also the […]

When Pastors Aren’t Angels: Becca Pountney on Wedding Industry Challenges Jul 06, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Becca Pountney, the UK’s number one wedding business marketing expert and host of the podcast Wedding Pros Who Are Ready to Grow. Did you know that many wedding professionals have a negative perception of church weddings? From difficulty accessing church buildings and strict rules, to […]

Long-Term Vision, Lasting Impact: Curt Seaburg on Strategic Vision in Church Leadership Jun 29, 2023

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Curt Seaburg, the lead pastor of Victory Church in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. While it’s important for church leaders to learn from each other, when it comes to vision, it’s critical to know yourself and the God-given calling for your church within its unique community. Listen to […]

Hybrid Church in a Digital Age: Collin Jones on the State of Church Tech Today Jun 22, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Collin Jones, the chief ambassador at Resi, part of the organization Pushpay. Pushpay provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app to the faith sector while Resi helps deliver reliable livestream solutions to churches. Online services and live streaming […]

Exploring the State of Church Staff Health: Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen on Findings and Insights from New National Study Jun 15, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast! Today is part 2 of a conversation that we started back in April with Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. If you’re curious about the state of church staff health in the US, you won’t want to miss this episode as we dive into the findings of […]

Discipleship Leadership Development in Church Planting: Stevie Flockhart’s Leadership Journey Jun 08, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stevie Flockhart, Lead Pastor of 901 Church in Tennessee. Have you ever struggled with the desire for personal recognition and validation in ministry? In this unSeminary podcast episode Stevie shares his personal journey and struggles with comparison and the desire for success. Listen in […]

Long-Term Leadership: Jeff Cranston on Steady, Purposeful Leadership Jun 01, 2023

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Lead Pastor Jeff Cranston with us from LowCountry Community Church in Bluffton, South Carolina. How can churches maintain balance in ministry and create engagement within their congregation and staff? This is a question that Jeff answers in today’s episode of the unSeminary Podcast. Don’t miss this conversation […]

Doing Less to Reach More: Trevor DeVage on 160% Church Growth in 18 Months May 25, 2023

Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lead Pastor Trevor DeVage from Pantano Christian Church in Arizona, one of the fastest growing churches in the country. Is your church in a season of growth, needing to streamline its ministries? Or are you trying to simplify your systems so that they […]

Practical Help on Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Ken Nash May 18, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Ken Nash, the Lead Pastor of Cornerstone Church in Michigan, is with us today. For decades churches measured how well they were doing based on counting nickels and noses, but with the upheaval and loss churches have experienced over the last few years, they need to change […]

Training Your Team to Lead Through Others with Phil Caporale & George Probasco May 11, 2023

Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lead Pastor, Phil Caporale, and Campus Pastor and Kingsway Leadership School Site Director, George Probasco, from Kingsway Church in New Jersey. As a church leader, one of the most challenging aspects of your role can be developing leaders. While it can be difficult to identify […]

Leaning in on the Important (& Potentially Awkward) Conversations Around Women in Leadership at Your Church with Lisa Penberthy May 04, 2023

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lisa Penberthy, a church leader and consultant with 20 years of experience and an M.Div and MBA in nonprofit management. She is currently serving as the COO at Dannah Investment Group and is passionate about stewarding people’s callings as well as church resources. […]

Closing the Gap Between Your Church’s Vision & Execution with Nick Thompson Apr 27, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Nick Thompson, the Executive Pastor at The Living Stone Church in Denver, Colorado. How is your church executing on its vision? If you’re a church leader looking to create a practical framework for decision-making, a Vision Frame might be just what you need. Listen to this […]

Building a Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Sustaining a Strong Team Culture with Todd Rhoades & Matt Steen Apr 24, 2023

Welcome to today’s special episode of the unSeminary podcast where we are replaying our recent webinar called “Resilient Church Staff: Secrets to Building and Sustaining a Strong Team Culture” with my friends Todd Rhoades and Matt Steen, the co-founders of Chemistry Staffing. In this webinar, Todd and Matt discuss the importance of cultivating a healthy […]

Being a Clarity Champion on a Senior Leadership Team at a Fast Growing Church with Kasey Husen Apr 20, 2023

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kasey Husen, the Executive Director of Communicatons and Events at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. Kasey talks with us about the importance of having a Communications Director at the senior leadership level at your church. Beyond branding and marketing, Kasey shares how they can […]

Leading Through the Crisis Your Church is In (Or About to Be In) with Rusty George Apr 13, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George this week, the lead pastor of Real Life Church in Southern California. In addition to being a pastor, Rusty is a speaker, teacher and author focused on making real-life simple. As leaders, we all face difficult times and crises that challenge […]

Skills You Need to Move from Pandemic to Progress with Brian Dodd Apr 06, 2023

Thank you for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Brian Dodd back with us. He’s the Director of New Ministry Relationships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions, as well as blogging at Brian Dodd on Leadership and the author of several books. Brian is talking with us about the current state of the church […]

Sunday Service Dedicated to Pre-schoolers & Their Parents? Church Growth Lessons from Marcus Gibbs & Bubble Church Mar 30, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We have a real treat today. We recorded this interview in person while in London, England with Marcus Gibbs, Vicar at Ascension Church. Are you looking for innovative ways to reach unchurched communities and serve the next generation?Listen in as Marcus shares the simple yet engaging Bubble […]

Leveraging Data to Drive Ministry Outcomes at Your Church with Erik Henry Mar 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Erik Henry, the Executive Pastor of Central Christian Church in Wisconsin. Data is critical to accurately understand what’s happening at your church and what’s changing over time. Listen in as Erik discusses the importance of using data to make informed decisions at your church as […]

Moving from Spanish Translation to a Full Spanish Ministry with Tim Hill Mar 16, 2023

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Tim Hill, executive pastor at Bear Creek Church, located at the crossroads of West Houston, Katy and Cypress, Texas. Every zip code in America is more diverse today than it was ten years ago. And it will be even more diverse ten years […]

Seeking God’s Best for Your Church Even in a Hostile Environment with Terry A. Smith Mar 09, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Terry A. Smith with us today; he’s the lead pastor at The Life Christian Church (TLCC) which serves the New York City metro area. He recently wrote a devotional called, The Lord Bless You: A 28-Day Journey to Experience God’s Extravagant Blessings, and today we’re unpacking a […]

Building a Positive Working Relationship with Your Church’s Financial Institution with Eric Schroeder Mar 02, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re having a great conversation with Eric Schroeder, the president and CEO of CDF Capital, an organization that helps churches grow in order to transform lives and communities. Financial matters, like spiritual matters, are very personal. And when you’re dealing with something personal, it can be hard to develop […]

4 Minutes Every Weekend to Increase Revenue & Spread Culture at Your Church with Taleah Murray Feb 23, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Taleah Murray, the Executive Pastor of Ministries at Crossroads Christian Church in Corona, California. One of the areas Taleah oversees at Crossroads is offering talks and using video to share the impact that the church’s generosity is having as people give. Listen in as she […]

Kadi Cole Interviews Rich Birch about Female Leadership in the Church Feb 16, 2023

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole who leads the organization Kadi Cole & Company which helps with leadership development, management skills training, executive level coaching and more. This time Kadi is taking over hosting the podcast as she interviews Rich on how men can open […]

XP Roundtable: Finances, Volunteers, Staffing & More with Lisa Penberthy, Jeremy Peterson & Brandon Beard Feb 09, 2023

What larger trends are impacting churches across the country? The landscape of our culture continues to shift & evolve. Growing churches respond to those changes and find ways to thrive. Learn from the latest insights on trends and how those impact you and your team. Don’t miss this special podcast episode as we hear from […]

Get a Head Start on Your Church’s Multi-Use Strategy with Frank Bealer Feb 02, 2023

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Frank Bealer, the co-founder and Chief Growth Officer of Phase Family Centers as well as Chief of Staff at Local Church. Is your church considering a multi-use strategy? Does it seem overwhelming as you think about how to get started and all that you […]

Help to Fight the Scourge of Predictability in Your Church Services with Lance Burch Jan 26, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Lance Burch from Reality Church in Omaha, Nebraska. He often explores and identifies current cultural phenomena and then tries to find a way to connect them to biblical truth. Listen in as Lance shares how to pay attention to the questions the culture around us is […]

Tithes & Offerings Are No Longer Enough To Fund Your Church with Mark DeYmaz Jan 19, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Mark DeYmaz, who planted Mosaic Church in Arkansas and is co-founder of Mosaix Global Network. We’re nearly a quarter of our way through the 21st century and yet some churches are still operating on models from the 1960s. In spite of good intentions […]

Reflecting on Seasons of Life, Leadership & Their Impact on Your Team with Lee Coate Jan 12, 2023

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Lee Coate, the executive pastor at The Crossing in Las Vegas, and the president of Growmentum Group. Today Lee is talking with us about Growmentum Group, how they are helping church leaders accomplish their missions, and how to use the different seasons of leadership that are […]

Doing the Right Things for the Right Reasons with the Right People at Your Church with Scot Longyear & Heath Bottomly Jan 05, 2023

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re with returning guests Scot Longyear and Heath Bottomly today. Heath is the Lead Pastor of the Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona and Scot is the Senior Pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana. Scot and Heath talk with us about their book Fight […]

Lessons from Inside a Rapidly Multiplying Church with DeWayne McNally & Paul Schulz Dec 22, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with DeWayne McNally and Paul Schulz from Hill Country Bible Church in Austin, Texas. DeWayne and Paul both serve as executive pastors of ministry by dividing the responsibilities; DeWayne handles the operations, multiplication and family ministries while Paul takes care of the personal/spiritual growth related ministries, including […]

Reframing Evangelism at Your Church with Shaila Visser Dec 15, 2022

Thank for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Shaila Visser, the Global Senior Vice-President for Alpha International. Alpha is an 11-week course that creates a space for people to invite their friends for a conversation about life, faith and Jesus. Worldwide, an increasing number of pastors believe evangelism is wrong. This mindset, […]

Business as Core to the Mission of Your Church with Johnny Scott Dec 08, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to be talking with Johnny Scott, the lead pastor of Generations Church in Trinity, Florida. Ever wonder what a self-sustainable church might look like? Curious about how to use business as ministry? Listen in as Johnny Scott shares how churches can use holy-owned businesses to reach their […]

Working Genius with the Team at Your Church with Patrick Lencioni Dec 01, 2022

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Patrick Lencioni, one of the founders of The Table Group and an expert in leadership, teamwork, and organizational health. Pat’s also the author of 13 books which have sold millions of copies around the world, and today he’s talking with us about […]

In The Trenches of Guiding a Church to Be More Outsider Focused with Chuck Fenwick Nov 24, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Chuck Fenwick, lead pastor at New Haven UMC in Indiana. How do we build churches that are both reaching new people, and caring for the people who are with us? It’s a universal tension all church leaders face. Listen in as […]

What Are the Best Predictors of a Church’s Ability to Multiply Itself? A Warren Bird Conversation Nov 17, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’ve got Dr. Warren Bird with us today. He’s the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), and an author of over thirty books. Warren is back to talk about the New Faces of Church Planting survey which was performed back […]

Creating & Sustaining an Empowering Culture at Your Church with Dr. Derry Long Nov 10, 2022

Thanks for joining us here at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derry Long, from the Yellowstone Theological Institute. He’s served for 45 years in many church leadership roles and is here to share his knowledge with us. At churches, it’s not uncommon for 20% of the people to do 80% of the work, […]

Embracing a Team Mentality to Spark Growth at Your Church with Aaron Tredway Nov 03, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast – so glad that you have decided to tune in. This week we have with us Aaron Tredway, Lead Pastor of Fellowship City Church in Ohio. As church leaders, we know that when we empower others, we can accomplish more together than we can alone. But it can be hard […]

Under the Hood of a Multiplying Church of Nearly 30 Church Plants with Josh Husmann Oct 27, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m excited today to be talking with Josh Husmann, lead pastor at Mercy Road Church in Indiana. Mercy Road is one of the top reproducing churches in the country with a passion for multiplying disciples, leaders, churches, and expanding the reach of the gospel throughout the state of […]

Leading Slow & Steady Change in a Fast Growing Church with Mark Williams Oct 20, 2022

Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Mark Williams, Executive Pastor at New Day Christian Church in Port Charlotte, Florida. The last few years have seen a lot of changes for church leaders and their congregations. How do you continue to grow and change when people are burned out and […]

Gaining Brand Clarity That Makes Growing Your Church’s Mission Simple with Joey Speers Oct 13, 2022

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to talk with Joey Speers, a brand builder and digital marketer. He and his wife founded the Speers Collective Inc., the parent company of Creativ Rise and Brand Therapy. Joey is talking about how churches can generate brand clarity that makes growing their mission simple […]

Leading Change in the Midst of the Messiness of Ministry with Mike Bonem Oct 06, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Mike Bonem, a coach and consultant who helps church leaders with vision discernment, organizational design and strategy. In the last three years, everyone has had to make massive changes. Now as churches have found their new normal and are looking to the future, there can […]

Technology Insights to Drive Ministry Outcomes with Aaron Senneff Sep 29, 2022

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Aaron Senneff, the Chief Technology Officer at Pushpay. Pushpay is a digital engagement platform that provides a donor management system, including donor tools, finance tools and a custom community app, to churches. Technology is more important than ever in the church. But how […]

Outreach Lessons from the Statistically Most Secular City in North America with Jeremy Norton Sep 22, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jeremy Norton, lead pastor at Mountainview Church in Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada. Being a church leader in a place like the Yukon is a little like living in the future. Listen in as Jeremy shares how to engage with your neighbors and city in a post-Christian […]

Practical Help on Taking Your Messages from Good to Great with Pete Briscoe Sep 15, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking today with Pete Briscoe, who was the senior pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas for almost thirty years and preached through the Telling the Truth ministry, reaching an audience of more than 1.2 million people every week. Currently Pete is a coach for church and […]

Journey Beyond Burnout & Compassion Fatigue with Janetta Oni Sep 08, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Janetta Oni, the Creative Director at The Summit Church in North Carolina. Compassion fatigue is far more common in ministry than we might like to admit. It can be easy to wear busyness like a badge of honor while burning out in the process. But […]

Inside the Groups Ministry of a Fast Growing Baptist Church with David Raney Sep 01, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with David Raney, the Executive Pastor of Ministry from 2ND Baptist Church in Arkansas. 2ND Baptist is one of the fastest growing churches in the country, and as a growing church they want to make sure people get plugged in so they don’t fade away. Listen in […]

Advice on Taking Your Best Next Step When Life Is Uncertain with Jeff Henderson Aug 25, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jeff Henderson, founder of The FOR Company, which helps organizations build a good name where purpose and profit grow together. Many people are more familiar with what the Church is against rather than what the Church is for. What does your church WANT to […]

Aligning Mission & Organization to Achieve Creative Outcomes with Heath Bottomly Aug 18, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We are talking with Heath Bottomly, the Lead Pastor of Creative Teams at Pure Heart Church in Arizona. Does your church’s organizational structure match the vision that you believe you have been called to? Listen in as Heath shares how to get clarity about what is true, realign your […]

Leading in the Unchangeable Present with Larry Osborne Aug 11, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Larry Osborne, the Teaching Pastor and Kingdom Ambassador at North Coast Church. North Coast has nine locations in California, one in Ohio, one in Hawaii, and one in both Mexico and Japan. Churches can be tempted to look back to the old way […]

Managing High Performance Multisite Creative Teams with Melody Workman Aug 04, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Executive Creative Director Melody Workman from California-based Sandals Church – one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years now. It’s hard for churches everywhere to build high performance volunteer teams. Often our growth strategy for volunteer teams doesn’t match our […]

Burnout, Perfectionism & Identity: Inside Chris Hahn’s Personal Journey to Restoration Jul 28, 2022

Welcome to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Chris Hahn, the Executive Pastor of Missional Spaces at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. In the demands and activity of ministry, church leaders can find there is a disconnect between their public leadership and struggles in their personal lives. Don’t miss today’s podcast […]

Leading Through Healthy Open Brokenness & Vulnerability with Carl Kuhl Jul 21, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Carl Kuhl with us, the lead pastor of one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Mosaic Christian Church in the Baltimore/Washington, DC area. Listen in as Carl shares about the missing piece that will help people in our churches go deeper, both with God […]

The Surprising Journey Toward Being a Community Focused & Fast Growing Church with Vern Streeter Jul 14, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Vern Streeter, the lead pastor at Harvest Church in Billings, Montana. Harvest Church is one of the fastest growing churches in the country and has had a long-time value of being community-focused. Listen in as Vern chats with us about paying attention to the […]

Balancing A Growing Family & Ministry with Paula Ley Jul 07, 2022

Welcome back to this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Paula Ley, executive pastor at Radiant Church in the Tampa Bay area. Paula is talking with us about the spheres of influence in our lives and how to balance the busy seasons of ministry while still prioritizing our most important relationships. Ministry is […]

Latest Church Trends Post-COVID with Tony Morgan Jun 30, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tony Morgan, the founder and lead strategist of The Unstuck Group, which offers consulting and coaching for churches as well as practical resources such as courses, access to research and more – all to help churches get unstuck. The Unstuck Group does quarterly trend reports that […]

Healing the Racial Divide in Your Church with Derwin Gray Jun 23, 2022

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Derwin Gray, the lead pastor at Transformation Church in South Carolina. In the bible we see every nation, tribe, and tongue worshiping Christ together, yet in our country and churches we continually see examples of the racial divide. Listen in as Derwin shares […]

Leading in Our Churches & Community in this Current Moment with Dino Rizzo Jun 16, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. In this episode we’ll be chatting with Dino Rizzo, the executive director of the Association of Related Churches (ARC) as well as part of the senior leadership team at Church of the Highlands. ARC was created in 2000 by six pastors and has grown to be a preeminent church […]

International Business & Marketing Coach Chris Ducker Offers Advice for Church Leaders Jun 09, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with marketplace leader Chris Ducker, who is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and runs several businesses. As churches find themselves more a part of the online world, there is continually a challenge to connect with people in a meaningful way. Listen in as Chris shares how to […]

Helpful Insights for Church Leaders with Brian Dodd Jun 02, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This time we’re talking with Brian Dodd, the Director of New Ministry Partnerships at Injoy Stewardship Solutions. He also runs a blog called Brian Dodd on Leadership which provides perspective, encouragement, and solutions for church and ministry leaders. When you look at the world today, there seems […]

Coaching on Rebuilding a “New” Launch Team for Your Church with Shawn Lovejoy May 26, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Shawn Lovejoy, the founder and CEO of Courageous Pastors and Courage to Lead. His work is all about coaching leaders around what keeps them up at night and focuses on personal and organizational growth. Shawn is talking with us about building and redeploying healthy teams in […]

Reflecting Back 5+ Years After a Sr. Leader Transition with Executive Pastor Kevin Cook May 19, 2022

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Kevin Cook, executive pastor at Cross Point Church in the greater Nashville, Tennessee, area. They have six locations in middle Tennessee plus online services. God has entrusted those of us who are executive pastors with a significant leadership. While He may be preparing […]

Encouragement For You From Nearly 4 Decades of Ministry Experience with Greg Surratt May 12, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Greg Surratt, the founding pastor of Seacoast Church in the Carolinas and also a founding member of ARC, Association of Related Churches, which trains, coaches, and equips church plants across the country. So many pastors are wrestling with similar concerns and soul care issues today. They are […]

Pushing Your Church’s Culture Forward in This Current Season with Jenni Catron May 05, 2022

Thanks for tuning in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenni Catron, the founder and CEO of the 4Sight Group which helps both leaders and their teams be healthy and thriving. With the disruptions that covid has brought, many church leaders are struggling with a sense of overload and fatigue. Shifts in how we […]

Insights on Pastoral Restoration After a Fall with Shawn & Sonny Hennessy Apr 28, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Shawn and Sonny Hennessy, from Life Church Green Bay in Wisconsin. Shawn and Sonny are also co-hosts of The Rise After the Fall podcast and together founded The Exchange Collaborative. The highs and lows of ministry, and the trials of life can threaten to destroy pastors […]

Latest HR Dynamics Impacting Your Church With Tiffany Henning Apr 21, 2022

Thanks for joining the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tiffany Henning, founder of HR Ministry Solutions which helps with human resources in churches and faith-based ministries. At the beginning of 2021, many churches were restructuring their staff. Now in 2022 with so much inflation, there are concerns about how to compensate staff fairly. These things […]

Helping You & Your Team Ditch Discouragement, Fear and Anxiety with Scot Longyear Apr 14, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Scot Longyear, the senior pastor of Maryland Community Church in Indiana, and guest host for the Worship Leader Probs podcast. Two years after the pandemic, church leaders are still trying to figure out where to go from here. It’s been a tough season to […]

Moving Beyond the Stream of Church Online with Jay Kranda Apr 07, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda, the online pastor of Saddleback Church in California. Digital ministry is here to stay and churches need to think about how to move beyond just managing their weekend stream to actually connecting people online to the church and each […]

Shifting Paradigms Impacting Growing Churches with Sean Morgan Mar 31, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re chatting with Sean Morgan, founder of The Ascent Leader, a year-long development program structured around relational cohorts which is designed to engage ministry leaders in transparent conversations and one-on-one coaching with world-class leaders. As we transition from COVID being pandemic to endemic, there are paradigms church leaders have […]

Tips for Making Your Church More Single Friendly with Kaylee Estes Mar 24, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kaylee Estes who was the Connections Pastor at Restoration Community Church in Denver, Colorado. More and more people are single in our churches today than in previous generations. Younger people are waiting longer to get married, the divorce rate continues to increase, and […]

Inside a 4X Growth In Group Engagement at a Growing Church with Joe Boyd Mar 17, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Joe Boyd, lead pastor of Grace Fellowship in Minnesota. They are one of the fastest growing churches in the country as well as a church-planting church and have started 28 churches during their 34 years of service. Jesus changed the world with a small group. Groups […]

Crucial Conversations with Team Members at Your Church with Matt Slocum Mar 10, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Matt Slocum, executive pastor at Victory Life Church in Battle Creek, Michigan. Conflict is inevitable in relationships and it’s important to handle it well. Matt is talking with us today about how Victory Life Church sought to help its staff get better at having crucial […]

Is Church Multiplication on the Rise? Don’t Miss This Conversation with Warren Bird Mar 03, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m talking with Warren Bird, the Senior Vice President of Research and Equipping at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. It’s time for a fresh look to see what God is doing, especially coming out of the pandemic. If you’re wondering how church planting […]

Office Hours: Volunteer Recruiting Best Practices & Reaching New People Feb 24, 2022

Welcome to this month’s Office Hours episode. This month Rich is taking on your questions about building volunteer teams, and reaching people who might not normally attend your services. Leslie Moffat, administrative pastor, Celebration Church in Brantford, Ontario, Canada: “For churches with multiple services, do you recommend the same volunteers stay on for the entire […]

Stop Copying and Pasting the Announcements for Your Church! Feb 22, 2022

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I know this sounds like some homespun advice from your mom, but it does apply to looking for resources on the internet to improve the weekend services or announcements at your church. A quick search online will reveal an endless amount of templates and done-for-you resources that […]

In-Person Community & Bold Digital Innovation in a Lonely World with Benjamin Windle Feb 17, 2022

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with return guest Benjamin Windle from Life Place Church in Australia. Whether or not churches are going to opt in to the digital revolution is no longer an option. Now the question is, how do churches operate and minister in a digital world, particularly to younger […]

9 Tiny Habits That Can Cause Huge Disengagement During Announcements Feb 15, 2022

When you have a little pebble in your shoe, it’s hard to focus on anything around you besides that minor discomfort, right? We sometimes do the same thing with our tiny habits during our weekend service announcements. What about that little smudge from your kid’s finger on the TV as you watch the latest Hollywood […]

Increasing the Impact of the Serving Experience on Volunteers with Rachel Long Feb 10, 2022

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we have Rachel Long back on the podcast. She’s one of the executive pastors at Emmanuel Church, a multisite church in Indiana. Today Rachel is talking with us about building healthy volunteer teams within our churches. You can learn more about Emmanuel Church at www.eclife.org, […]

Why Church Leaders Can’t Stand Doing Announcements Feb 08, 2022

Do you dread being asked to get up and host a weekend service at your church? Can just talking about hosting the announcements this coming weekend make your stomach turn? Is your team pushing you to drop the announcements? And maybe even more worrying, do you have a good reason not to drop them? Are […]

Increasing Multi-Faith Proximity While Remaining Gospel-Centered with Kevin Singer Feb 03, 2022

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Kevin Singer, co-founder and co-director of the student-led movement, Neighborly Faith, which brings Christians and Muslims together. There is very little in the church to help equip believers regarding how to engage with our neighbors of other faiths in a way that […]

5 Leadership Hedges Against Inflation for Your Church Feb 01, 2022

Just when you thought the word “unprecedented” couldn’t possibly be used any more, we continue to climb into levels of inflation that haven’t been seen in over four decades. In fact, the last time we saw inflation this high, the world was a completely different place. We find ourselves leading in an environment of increasing […]

Office Hours: Attracting Young Families & Help with Hiring Your Next Team Member Jan 27, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this month’s Office Hours podcast episode. Today Rich is answering your questions about attracting young families and getting help with hiring your next team member. John Boyle, executive pastor, Calvary Bible Church in Boulder, Colorado: “I wanted to pick your brain on attracting more young families to our church.” Know […]

Mega to Meta? Your First Step in Starting a Metaverse Ministry with Jason Poling Jan 20, 2022

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Jason Poling, lead pastor of Cornerstone Church of Yuba City in California. For the first ten years of Jason’s ministry as a pastor, he felt like he had been living in “maintenance mode.” While his church was experiencing growth, some of which was due to brand […]

Best Practices in Onboarding New Staff with Ken McAnulty Jan 13, 2022

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken McAnulty, executive pastor at Arise Church in Florida. The hiring process is tough, and ramping up new staff can be awkward and stressful if it isn’t done with a lot of intentionality. Ken is with us today to talk about how to […]

Rebuilding a Team Culture That Was Broken with Jesse DeYoung Jan 06, 2022

Thanks for tuning into the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jesse DeYoung, the executive lead pastor at Flatirons Community Church in Boulder, Colorado. Jesse is talking with us today about how Flatirons Church worked through a difficult season of ministry, addressed their broken team culture, and witnessed God’s redemption among the staff. Recognize what’s not […]

Connection & Engagement Lessons from a Fast Growing Church During the Pandemic with Julie Hawkins Dec 23, 2021

Today we’re chatting with Julie Hawkins, the Next Steps Pastor at Chapel Hill Church in Washington state. So many churches had to quickly develop an online presence at the beginning of 2020 and it made the area of helping people take their next steps more challenging. Listen in as Julie shares how Chapel Hill Church […]

Helping Female Leaders in Your Church Find Their Leadership Voice with Kadi Cole Dec 16, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Kadi Cole, the founder of Kadi Cole & Company, an organization created to help leaders of all organizations. Kadi is with us today to talk about encouraging female leaders at your church while removing barriers from leadership opportunities. Find the drop off. // Many men in […]

Building a Team Culture at Your Church that You’ll Love with Brian Cook Dec 09, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Brian Cook, the lead pastor of ACF Church (Alliance Christian Fellowship) in Eagle River, Alaska. Right now 4.5 million people in the US are quitting their job every month and 50% are looking for a new job. Staff culture is a big […]

Helping Teams Leverage, Not Loathe, Personality Differences with Eddie Hastings Dec 02, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Eddie Hastings, Executive Pastor of Ministries at Chets Creek Church in Florida. Eddie is talking with us about using personality tests to better build and communicate with your staff teams. Know and trust each other. // When a church grows, especially to have multiple campuses, […]

Bonus Deep Dive: Health Care Sharing For Churches? Marq James Helps Us Clear Up Misconceptions Dec 01, 2021

Are you a senior leader in church thinking about health care options for your team? Did you know that your team is anxious about this aspect of serving at your church? Today on unSeminary we want to help with that worry & stress. We are joined by Marq James, an expert in health care sharing […]

If Jesus Gave a TED Talk? Neuroscience Communication Principles The Master Teacher Used To Persuade His Audience with Charles Stone Nov 25, 2021

Thanks for joining in for the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Charles Stone, lead pastor at West Park Church in Ontario, Canada. He also is an author and provides training for pastors. 75% of people forget most of what they’ve heard from a talk within an hour. 90% forget what they’ve heard after a week […]

Leading a Fast Growing Church While Having Healthy Rhythms & Boundaries with Zeb Cook Nov 11, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Zeb Cook, the lead pastor at Apex Baptist Church in Apex, North Carolina. Zeb is talking with us today about establishing healthy rhythms and boundaries in your life so that you can continue to thrive in the ministry where God has called you. Create a system […]

Going International as a Multisite Church with Tommie Bozich Nov 04, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Tommie Bozich, the executive pastor of Trinity Church, a multisite church with locations in Virginia and also internationally. Tommie is talking with us about what led them to launch a location in Stuttgart, Germany, and what a church should think about when considering […]

Practical Advice on Fostering a Kingdom Mindset In Your Church with Brian McMillan Oct 14, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Brian McMillan, from CenterPoint Church in Long Island, New York. Brian is talking with us today about how pastors can keep their souls healthy by being generous and Kingdom-minded toward church plants coming into their area. Challenges of church planting. // When planting a church, […]

Moving from Paid to Volunteer Music Teams in a Fast Growing Multisite Church with Stone Meyer Oct 07, 2021

Thanks for tuning into this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Stone Meyer, executive pastor from The Bridge Church in Tennessee. Stone is talking with us today about the musical worship part of services and how to develop excellence in your unpaid volunteer musicians. The musical worship aspect. // The musical worship aspect of services […]

Moving from Maintenance to Movement in this Season with Van Vandegriff Sep 30, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Van Vandegriff, lead pastor at Cedarcrest Church in Acworth, Georgia. Van is talking with us today about dealing with COVID and helping people at the church to shift out of neutral and reengage with the mission of the church. Reengage with the mission. // […]

Sermon Planning Rhythms that Produce Engaging & Faithful Content with Zach Lambert Sep 23, 2021

Thanks for joining us on the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Zach Lambert, lead pastor at Restore Austin in Austin, Texas. Zach is with us today to talk about how to take the stress out of sermon planning and coming up with biblical and engaging topics in your teaching. What are you preaching […]

Building Staff Culture While Leading During Trying Times with Rusty George Sep 16, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Rusty George, the lead pastor at Real Life Church in the Los Angeles area. He’s talking with us today about what it’s like stepping into the lead pastor role after the founding pastor. You can learn more about Real Life Church at reallifechurch.org and about Rusty […]

How to Get Time, Energy, and Priorities Working in Your Favor with Carey Nieuwhof Sep 09, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Carey Nieuwhof, a leadership expert, author, speaker, podcaster, former attorney, and church planter. He’s with us today to share about how to address the crisis of overwhelm in our work and lives. Digital scales in a way that physical doesn’t. // After the pandemic, we […]

Leading Change That Lasts with Hillsong Atlanta’s Lisette Fraser Aug 12, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Lisette Fraser, the COO/executive pastor of Hillsong Atlanta. Leading through change is at the core of serving as an executive pastor and church leader. Today Lisette is talking with us about where to begin when stepping out and leading change in this […]

Inside Team Culture Development at a Fast Growing Church with Chad Asman Aug 05, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Chad Asman, executive pastor of Heritage Church just north of Detroit, Michigan. He is with us today to talk about developing team culture at your church to create future leaders. Start with culture. // Heritage Church worked to create a leadership pipeline not only […]

How to Get Traction on Execution at Your Church with Allie Bryant Jul 29, 2021

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Allie Bryant from Trader’s Point Christian Church. Although they have six campuses in Indianapolis, currently four are opened along with church online due to covid. Allie is the Strategic Alignment Executive for Traders Point and she loves getting the right people in the room to […]

Balancing the Healthy Tensions of the Executive Pastor Role with Tyler Althof Jul 22, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Tyler Althof, the associate pastor from Action Church in Florida. Tyler is with us today to talk about tensions to manage when you are leading from the second chair at a church. We need a sense of security. // As church leaders we need to […]

Tackling the Early Days as a New Executive Pastor with Matt Gilchrist Jul 15, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today I’m talking with Matt Gilchrist, executive pastor at Hope City Church in Missouri. Matt is talking with us about getting up to speed as a new XP at a church and how to connect with your lead pastor, your staff, and spouse during this season […]

Improving Your Church’s Financial Competencies with Ken Fisher Jul 08, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken Fisher, Executive Pastor at Church at the Mill in South Carolina. As one of the fastest growing churches in the country, Church at the Mill has doubled in size in the last five years. As a church grows, the staff needs to consider how they […]

Leveraging Research to Drive Design & Communication Insights at Crossroads Church with Vivienne Bechtold Jul 01, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to be talking with Vivienne Bechtold, the Director of Studio and Leadership Development at Crossroads Church in Ohio. Crossroads has been one of the fastest growing churches in the country for several years, but this growth hasn’t happened without being intentional about reaching those […]

Moving from Pre-Recorded Church Online to Live with JD Mason Jun 24, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with JD Mason, the online campus leader from Liberty Live Church in Virginia. JD is chatting with us today about how church online has evolved for Liberty Live Church since the pandemic and why they made the decision to transition to live, rather than prerecorded, broadcasts. Trial […]

Bonus Deep Dive: Current Best Practices in Operational Reserves for Your Church with Steve Carr Jun 23, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re doing a bonus deep dive about operational reserves and how much our churches should be saving. We have expert Steve Carr from CDF Capital with us to help us think through these questions. Maintain generosity. // During the pandemic, churches trended toward either maintaining their […]

National Church Leader Survey on Attitudes Towards In-Person, Remote, or Hybrid Work Arrangements Jun 22, 2021

Is your team moving back to an “in-person” office experience? Do you know how your team members feel about working at home once life looks a little more normal? What does the future of church leadership work arrangements look like? We must understand the impact that COVID-19 has had on our church leadership environment and […]

Rebuilding Connection At Your Church Post-COVID with Abby Ecker Jun 17, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Abby Ecker, Next Steps Pastor from The Journey in Delaware. She’s with us today to talk about getting people connected and helping them take steps from just attending weekend gatherings to moving into the core of the church. Help people take steps, not leaps. […]

Expanding the Leadership Voices at Your Table with Jeannette Cochran Jun 10, 2021

Thanks for joining us for the unSeminary podcast. This week we’re chatting with Jeannette Cochran, executive pastor Seneca Creek Community Church in Maryland. Jeannette is talking with us today about what it is like being a female executive pastor in a church and how you can empower more women to engage their gifts and lead […]

5 Mindsets Church Leaders Need to Change Post-COVID Jun 09, 2021

As the leader goes, so goes the organization. It’s often been said that the mindset of a leader ultimately drives the behavior of an organization. It’s a scary thought when you consider that our internal thought life can express itself in the people that we consistently lead. I think this is a truism when it […]

Season of Hope: Your Church’s Fall 2021 Growth Opportunity Jun 08, 2021

The coming months hold an unprecedented opportunity to see your church impact more people than ever before. As the country begins to shake off the shackles of COVID-19 and the ensuing economic calamity, we’re seeing new windows of opportunity. We must leverage this season for the message of Jesus. We can echo what Paul said […]

Focusing on Jesus in a Distracted World with Steve Brown Jun 03, 2021

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dr. Steve Brown, President of Arrow Leadership and author of the book Jesus Centered: Focusing On Jesus In A Distracted World. Steve works to help leaders find clarity, community and confidence in their work as Jesus-centered leaders. He’s talking with us today about how to lead […]

Improving Your Working Partnership with an Executive Assistant with Jannet Morgan May 27, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re chatting with Jannet Morgan, the Executive Assistant (EA) to Lead Pastor, Tim Lucas, at Liquid Church in New Jersey. She’s with us today to talk about the role of the EA supporting leadership in the church and how to make the most out of that partnership. Be […]

Applying Pandemic Learnings from Church Online to Post-Pandemic Church with Jenn Clauser May 20, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jenn Clauser, the Director of Communications at Coker United Methodist Church in San Antonio, Texas. She’s with us today to dig deeper into online church and how to integrate it as a core part of our mission to reaching people who are far […]

Is Your Team Languishing? Practical Help for Executive Pastors. May 18, 2021

It’s clear that we’re entering a post-pandemic stress period in the life of the local church. All around us we see signs that our teams are stressed and not sure what to do next. Anecdotally, we’re hearing about huge turnover at churches, and we cannot ignore the rising anxiety in leaders across the country. Recently, […]

Pete Briscoe’s Lessons from Coming Alongside Senior Leaders to Help with Communication & Self Care May 13, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Pete Briscoe, who served as the senior pastor for nearly three decades at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Carrollton, Texas, and now consults with and coaches pastors. He is with us today to talk about growing communication skills to improve preaching as well as how […]

Pitfalls and Possibilities of VR Church with Jonathan Armstrong May 06, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Dr. Jonathan Armstrong today, an educator who has also helped run the virtual reality (VR) lab at Moody Bible Institute. Our perspective on what technology is and how it’s affecting our world keeps changing. In fact as younger generations have grown up with […]

Practical Strategy for Developing High-Capacity Volunteers with Danny Franks Apr 29, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast! This week I’m chatting with a repeat guest, Danny Franks, Pastor of Guest Services at The Summit Church. The Summit Church has twelve locations around North Carolina and the heart of the church is set on sending. They continually want their people to be asking: how does God want […]

Practical Help for Church Leaders in Emotional and Spiritual Growth with Bill & Kristi Gaultiere Apr 22, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Bill and Kristi Gaultiere from the organization Soul Shepherding. Bill and Kristi felt called to study psychology for the purpose of ministry, and serve as spiritual directors and pastors to pastors. Soul Shepherding offers resources and training for pastors and leaders and […]

How to Beat the Spring Lull & Gain Momentum at Your Church Apr 21, 2021

The season between Easter and summer is a strange one in the life of a church. Many churches gain momentum coming up to Easter and then find the weeks that follow before summer arrives, drag on. In any other year, this lull in momentum can feel difficult to climb out of; however, this spring is […]

Turning Obstacles into Opportunities: Church Real Estate Lessons with Andy Wood Apr 15, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Andy Wood, founding and lead pastor of Echo Church in California. Many times in ministry, the thing that should be an obstacle actually can become an opportunity if we think about it differently. Echo Church held strongly to this idea when it […]

Loving the Church You Serve with Carl Kuhl Apr 08, 2021

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with church planter and lead pastor Carl Kuhl from Mosaic Christian Church in Maryland. Mosaic was planted in the fall of 2008, launching first in a movie theater, and has become one of the fastest growing churches in the country. When planting a […]

3 Key Lessons For Your Church From a Study of 20,000 Online Events Apr 06, 2021

Recently, a report entitled The State of Virtual Events 2021 was released, which looked at the experiences of 100 leading brands that ran over 20,000 online events in the last year. This study explores these brands’ thinking around online events as they have made the “great pivot” to utilize this option more and more. Like […]

Helping Leaders Slow Down with Christa Hesselink Apr 01, 2021

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Christa Hesselink, founder of the organization SoulPlay. SoulPlay offers creative experiences, curated resources, and personal support to help individuals and groups dig deeper, listen well, and journey towards loving themselves, others, God, and our world, well. The last twelve months have been incredibly […]

How to Help People Who are Burned, Bruised, or Wounded in Your Church with Steve Grusendorf Mar 25, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Steve Grusendorf who is a part of the denominal leadership at the Christian and Missionary Alliance. He started as a local pastor at a CMA church, always serving in leadership development, and a few years ago became involved in this aspect at […]

Pandemic to Endemic: Five Questions Your Church May Still Need to Answer About COVID-19 Mar 23, 2021

The cultural and economic impact of COVID-19 is one of the greatest influences on the local church in at least a generation. Over the last year, we’ve seen COVID-19 impact our ministries in innumerable ways. In some respects, COVID-19 has accelerated positive change in the local church. The shift to equipping the majority of churches […]

Working at Health while Facilitating for Growth with Renaut van der Riet Mar 18, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Renaut van der Riet from Mosaic Church in the Orlando, Florida area. Passionate about making the gospel beautiful however they can, Mosaic is continually pursuing how they can serve each other and how they can serve their community. This heart has led to […]

Practical Help for Church Leaders Dealing with Home Life Pressures with Michelle Leichty Mar 11, 2021

Thanks for joining in to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Michelle Leichty, the Communication Director at Covenant Church in Indiana. For many church leaders, managing their homes and serving in ministry has been especially challenging to balance during the pandemic. Shifting back and forth between work burdens […]

Speaking Truth to the Hearts of Executive Pastors with Kevin Davis Mar 04, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Kevin Davis from 2|42 Community Church in Michigan. Kevin is one of the executive pastors and focuses on small groups, culture, and leadership development. What makes a good ministry leader? How can you learn to lead yourself well? How do you work through conflict […]

Moving a Fast Growing Multisite Church from Centralized to Decentralized Leadership Structure with Rachel Long Feb 25, 2021

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Rachel Long, Executive Pastor of Families and Multisites at Emmanuel Church in the greater Indianapolis area. Making the decision to go multisite and growing to multiple campuses will inevitably lead to a discussion about who answers to who on staff. The dotted […]

The Reason Your Church Marketing Isn’t Working Feb 23, 2021

Are you wondering why those Facebook ads that you’ve been running for the last few months don’t seem to be translating into people connecting, neither in person nor online? Have you tried multiple flyer drops in your neighborhood and you’re desperately hoping that maybe one person would show up, but it just hasn’t happened? Are […]

Something is Broken: A Conversation About What Christian Leaders Should Stop Saying about Sexual Abusers with Tanya Marlow Feb 19, 2021

This is a special edition of the unSeminary podcast. Many church leaders don’t know what to say when it comes to the revelations around disgraced Christian leader, Ravi Zacharias. Earlier this week I bumped into Tayna Marlow’s article on this topic entitled “But his books are still good, right? – 5 things Christians must stop […]

Everyday Ways to Help Your People Change the World with Dave & Jon Ferguson Feb 18, 2021

Welcome to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. I’m happy to have Dave and Jon Ferguson with us from Community Christian Church. Community has nine locations in Illinois as well as online services and works in three correctional facilities. Almost all Christians want to share the love of Jesus with their friends and neighbors. […]

Former Divorce Lawyer Offers Perspectives on Marriage with Toni Nieuwhof Feb 11, 2021

Thanks for joining this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week I’m excited to talk with Toni Nieuwhof. Toni’s extensive experience as a family lawyer, pharmacist, and church leader has given her unique and practical insights on how people grow emotionally, personally and spiritually. Although we don’t know the impacts of the pandemic on marriages and the […]

Increase Your Church’s Volunteer Teams with This Proven Multisite Expansion Tactic Feb 09, 2021

Does your church have fewer volunteers today than it did a year ago? Are you wondering how you’re going to rebuild your church’s teams after everything that’s happened with COVID-19 and the way our culture has changed as a result of the pandemic? Have you wondered where you go next when it comes to gaining […]

Increasing Prayer, Transparency and Accountability on Your Church Team with Darrell Roland Feb 04, 2021

Welcome back to this week’s unSeminary podcast. This week we’re talking with Darrell Roland, from Rock Bridge Community Church. They have six locations in Georgia and Tennessee as well as a Spanish service. One of the roles of the executive pastor is the management and leadership of the staff, and so today we’re talking about […]

MrBeast Burger: What Is It? What It Can Teach Your Church! Feb 02, 2021

If you’re not familiar with YouTube culture, you might not have heard of MrBeast. Jimmy Donaldson (aka MrBeast) is the top content creator on the platform for 2020, and he’s super engaging. Over the years, he’s produced some amazingly creative content that has earned him over 51 million subscribers and all kinds of awards. He […]

Becoming A Multicultural Church with Dave Swaim Jan 28, 2021

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Dave Swaim, pastor at Highrock Covenant Church and president of the Highrock Network in the Boston area. The Highrock Network is a family of churches with a shared vision for locally focused congregations. Highrock Covenant Church began when a group of “spiritually homeless” individuals started […]

Carey Nieuwhof Interviews Rich Birch as unSeminary Celebrates 1.5 Million Downloads! Jan 25, 2021

This week we’re celebrating YOU, dear listeners! We always want to do everything we can to set you up for success – we’re always cheering for you! We’ve reached out to some friends who love serving church leaders like you and have put together some fun giveaways in honor of hitting 1.5 million downloads on […]

Church Based Justice Ministry That Doesn’t Drift from a Firm Faith-Based Foundation with Aaron Graham Jan 21, 2021

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Aaron Graham, the lead pastor of The District Church in Washington, DC. The District Church was started in 2010 with the desire to be a church for the city, impacting it for Christ one neighborhood at a time. In an area where […]

5 Forgotten Ingredients in Your Church’s Giving Moments Jan 19, 2021

The two minutes before you ask people to give to your church during your services are vitally important financially, both for the future of your church and for your people. Giving moments are an important part of your church’s system for increasing generosity and pushing the mission of your church forward. If your church is […]

Lead with What Your Church CAN DO with Chris Bell Jan 14, 2021

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Chris Bell, from 3Circle Church in the Mobile, Alabama area. When the pandemic started, all we heard about was new restrictions and what we couldn’t do. Chris was immediately challenged to focus on what the church CAN do each day. Listen in as Chris shares […]

5 Mistakes Churches Make Onboarding New Staff Jan 12, 2021

Hiring is the single most expensive decision that most church leaders will make over the course of their ministry. In many churches, staffing accounts for anywhere between 30 percent and 50 percent of the annual budget. You want to make sure that, as you hire new team members, you invest what you can at the […]

Helping Your People Add Keystone Habits that Grow Their Spiritual Lives in 2021 with Zach Zehnder Jan 08, 2021

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We have Zach Zehnder with us today, the author and founder of the Red Letter Challenge. RLC began with the simple concept of trying to help people be greater followers of Jesus. It started as a book, leading the reader on a 40-day life-changing discipleship experience […]

Recall: Your Church’s 2021 Strategic Communication Focus Jan 05, 2021

You have no doubt heard all the doomsayers saying that what we’ve experienced in the last year is beckoning a new age of disengagement in your church. You’ve probably heard people say that somewhere around a third of our people have left the church and won’t be returning. It seems like for decades, we’ve been […]

Inspiring Reflections on 2020 from Chicago with Mark Jobe Dec 24, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking to Mark Jobe, senior pastor at New Life Community Church (NLCC) in Chicago area and president of Moody Bible institute. New Life Community Church meets primarily in the city and has 28 locations with 40+ worship services. It’s a very multi-ethnic church with […]

Lessons From Casting Vision & Pushing Forward During the Pandemic with Drew Sherman Dec 17, 2020

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Drew Sherman, lead pastor of Compass Christian Church in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Compass has four physical locations as well as an online campus and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. The most fruitful seasons of our lives […]

Adding More Structure While Staying Relational in a Growing Church with Mark Geissbauer Dec 10, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we have with us Executive Pastor Mark Geissbauer from The Chapel which has three locations near Lake Erie. As a church grows, adding more structure is necessary to keep everyone in the loop and enable systems to operate smoothly. But how do you maintain a personal touch while adding […]

How Your Congregation Can Adapt and Thrive after a Crisis with Karl Vaters Dec 03, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Karl Vaters, a teaching pastor at Cornerstone Christian Fellowship as well as an author and speaker. Karl focuses on serving small churches, encouraging their growth and helping them to be healthy. 2020 has been a tough year between the pandemic, economic stress, social […]

Connection Between Community Service & Church Growth with Kyle & Justeina Brownlee Nov 26, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Kyle and Justeina Brownlee from Xperience Church in Ohio. At Xperience Church, going beyond their walls to serve their community isn’t just something they do, it’s who they are. Listen in as Kyle and Justeina share about how to build a culture of […]

Using Tech to Increase Bible Engagement at Your Church with Scott Lindsey Nov 19, 2020

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We’re honored to have with us today Scott Lindsey, the executive director at Faithlife. Faithlife is the company which created the Logos Bible Software for digital Bible study. Scott is with us today to talk about Faithlife, how they can help you, and how you can […]

Millennials, Gen Z and Your Church with Benjamin Windle Nov 12, 2020

Thanks so much for joining us for another unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Benjamin Windle. A native Australian, Benjamin has worked as a youth and young adult pastor in the US and currently helps churches develop Generational Intelligence in reaching Millennials and Gen Z through an assortment of resources, coaching, and speaking. According to […]

3 Myths about FutureFWD. Plus Dr. Henry Cloud Nov 07, 2020

Are you and your team registered for FutureFWD? You should be. Join us. Imagine you could get inside the minds of leaders who are thinking through where the local church is going next. What would it be like to understand how leading churches are thinking about what the future holds? Listen in to today’s special […]

Lessons In Getting People Back to In-Person Services with Kyle Mercer Nov 05, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast! Today we have lead pastor Kyle Mercer with us from Two Cities Church in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Two Cities was originally planted out of The Summit Church with J.D. Greear in 2016 and grew to about 1300 people before covid, becoming one of the fastest growing churches in the country. […]

A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam Oct 29, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have David Putnam with us today. David spent many years as a church planter and executive pastor and today consults with churches as a lead navigator with Auxano. David has also founded the organization Planting the Gospel which helps transition churches from a weekend-only disciple-making culture. […]

3 Ways FutureFWD Was Designed with Your Team in Mind. Plus Jenni Catron on Culture. Oct 28, 2020

Designed to help encourage collaboration. FutureFWD will have “future positive” tone that embraces the world we find ourselves in and gives helpful next steps to leaders like you. You and your team will leave energized and focused to lead into 2021 and beyond. FutureFWD is designed to encourage and equip your team to push forward […]

Thriving in the Midst of Life’s Storms with Ben Young Oct 22, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we have Dr. Ben Young with us, who is a writer and pastor at Second Baptist Church, a diverse, multi-ethnic church with over 20,000 people attending weekly services online and on six campuses throughout the city of Houston. Technology and the fact that we’ve become […]

How Will Your Team Benefit from FutureFWD? Plus: What’s Next? Justice. by Efrem Smith Oct 21, 2020

You and your team will leave energized and focused to lead into 2021 and beyond. FutureFWD is designed to encourage and equip your team to push forward with the plan God has in store for your church. Leading voices investing in your team. You’ll get to hear from marquee leaders across the church on how […]

Why should you register for FutureFWD? PLUS Larry Osborne on Both/And Leadership. Oct 14, 2020

Imagine you could get inside the minds of leaders who are thinking through where the local church is going next. What would it be like to understand how leading churches are thinking about what the future holds? In today’s episode, Kenny Jahng and I sit down and talk about FutureFWD. This is a 2-day online […]

From Plateaued for 30 Years to One of the Fastest Growing Churches in the Country with Bob Riedy Oct 08, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Bob Riedy from the Church of the Open Door (COD) in York, Pennsylvania. COD was started in the early 50s after breaking off of a mainline denomination. They experienced rapid growth for about 30 years, but then plateaued for the next 30 years. Today COD […]

Challenge Your People to Grow In Their Faith with Gregg Farah Oct 01, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Gregg Farah joining us from Shelter Rock Church in Long Island, New York. Why is the Church at large struggling so much to help people grow in their relationship with Christ? Many sincere followers of Jesus feel stuck or stalled in their faith. […]

Lessons from COVID-19 & the Reopening Phase in Australia for Your Church with John Finkelde Sep 24, 2020

Thanks for joining in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m glad you’ve decided to tune in as we talk with John Finkelde. John has thirty plus years of pastoral experience in Australia and currently runs the organization Grow a Healthy Church. He consults with and coaches churches and church leaders all over the world, helping […]

Community Service & Outreach in the Reopening Phase. Roundtable discussion with Heath Hollandsworth, Johnny Ova & Eric Jaffe Sep 22, 2020

This is an unprecedented season of opportunity for your church. In today’s episode we’re going to look under the hood at three churches that are involved in some pretty amazing community service and outreach in the reopening phase. Heath Hollandsworth, Executive Pastor of Ministries – Graystone Church, Georgia // Graystone Church believes one of the reasons […]

Leading a Thriving Small Groups Ministry with Ryan Hartwig Sep 17, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Ryan T. Hartwig with us today. Ryan is Professor of Communication at Colorado Christian University and has studied collaborative organizations within the church, such as groups and teams. Ryan is with us to talk about a new book that he wrote with Courtney W. Davis and […]

Practical Help Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Jacob Burgei Sep 10, 2020

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jacob Burgei today from Fuel Church in Kokomo, Indiana. Fuel Church launched in 2016 with about 85 people but as they began to understand the needs in their community, they quickly grew to become one of the fastest growing churches in the country. […]

From Steep Decline to One of the Fastest Growing Churches in the Country with Todd Elliott Sep 03, 2020

Thanks for tuning in for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today’s guest is Todd Elliott from Beach Church in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Beach Church was founded in 1992 and Todd began as the Small Groups Pastor in 2007. During that time, a falling out between the lead pastor and executive pastor led to them both […]

Multisite Alignment by Leveraging Objectives & Key Results with Michael Volbeda Aug 27, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to be talking with Michael Volbeda, Executive Pastor of Ministries at Brentwood Baptist Church in the Nashville, Tennessee area. Brentwood went from two to four campuses in 2014 and has since grown to eight locations. As time went on, the church realized it was operating as if it […]

What are leading churches doing for weekend programming this fall? Roundtable discussion with Ben Stapley, Chris Vacher & Brian Tome. Aug 26, 2020

How committed are we really to forging the future rather than preserving the past? Today we’ve got another special episode of the unSeminary podcast where we sit down with three fantastic church leaders from around North America—Ben Stapley, Chris Vacher and Brian Tome—and ask them some questions about the future that is the Fall 2020. […]

Increasing Engagement at Your Church with Tony McVickers Aug 20, 2020

Welcome to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Senior Pastor Tony McVickers from RockFish Church in North Carolina. RockFish Church is a multi-racial, multi-cultural church located near Fort Bragg and draws a large number of military members and families to its services. But this also means that RockFish Church has to […]

Hosting an Outdoor Church Service that Reaches People with Hal Seed Aug 19, 2020

Today’s episode is a special “rushed” edition of the podcast. We wanted to get you this up to the minute help for your church. Many churches are looking for advice on how to hold outdoor services and in today’s episode, we dive deep with Hal Seed on this issue! Hal is the lead and founding […]

Keeping Your Church Focused on Reaching Unchurched People with Brent Purvis Aug 13, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Lead Pastor Brent Purvis with us from Cascade Hills Church in Georgia. Cascade Hills Church was started by Brent’s father, Bill, after a dramatic near death experience caused him to give his life to Christ. Cascade Hills has always been a church […]

5 Church Budget Items to Rethink for Fall 2020 Aug 11, 2020

As we look to the coming months, a tremendous amount of uncertainty still remains. Many church leaders across the country are facing huge pressures from COVID-19 and the ensuing economic crisis. Budgetary pressures are leading us to rethink many aspects of the way our churches invest their resources. We find ourselves in a prolonged reopening […]

Building Bridges Between Anglo and Hispanic Churches with Raul Burgos Aug 06, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Raul Burgos from Comunidad Cristiana in New Jersey. Raul grew up in the Dominican Republic and emigrated to the US when he was in his 20s. He’s spent the second half of his life immersed in American culture and has helped plant both English-speaking and Spanish-speaking […]

7 Reasons Your Church Should Merge With Another Church in 2020 Aug 04, 2020

In this season, many churches have been stalled by their plateaued or declining attendance, while other congregations are thriving and making an impact. 94% of all churches in the country are losing ground against the communities they serve. That means that if this trend continues, the message of Jesus will in turn lose ground in […]

Navigating Social Media in the Next Normal with Advice from Facebook’s Nona Jones Jul 30, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. In June we helped cohost The Next Normal Conference with our friends at Leadership Network and Church Communications in order to inspire church leaders and spur collaboration between their teams about where we are all heading next. Today we’re bringing you a re-broadcast […]

Cirque du Soleil, Monster Jam and Disneyland: Marketplace Reopening Lessons for Your Church Jul 28, 2020

There’s no doubt that the reopening phase at your church is going to include some of the most complex decisions you’ll ever make. The switch to fully digital a few months ago will look like an easy decision and simple process in comparison to what will come next. Unlike the last transition, the reopening phase […]

The Extraordinary Calling of Ordinary People to Lead in This Season with Ken Costa Jul 23, 2020

Welcome to this week’s edition of the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Ken Costa, the founder of God At Work and author of four books including his latest, Joseph of Arimathea. He is with us today to talk about listening and leading in this season. Stop and listen. // Right now we’re dealing with a […]

5 Questions About COVID-19 that Your Church Might Still Need to Answer Jul 21, 2020

One of the core takeaways from 2020 so far is that we all have lacked the imagination needed to see over the horizon. Who would’ve thought that this year would bring all the challenges that it has as it relates to coronavirus? Oftentimes people say that no one could have predicted this, that no one […]

Navigating Your Church’s Next Financial Phase with Jim Sheppard Jul 16, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast! Today we are joined by Jim Sheppard, CEO of Generis. Generis is in the business of helping churches and ministry organizations with giving development. They’ve been around for a little over 30 years and are most known for their giving campaigns as well as coaching churches […]

COVID-19 Killed Church Consulting. Long Live Strategic Outsiders! Jul 14, 2020

It’s already been said a million times, but we are living in an unprecedented age. This is true for your church as well as mine. The impacts of COVID-19 and the ensuing economic meltdown that are rippling across the country are having profound impacts on churches everywhere. As someone who has spent a tremendous amount […]

Kids Ministry in the Reopening Phase: Roundtable with Christine Kreisher, Suzi Soares, Heather Celaya & Aanna Smalley Jul 09, 2020

Kids ministry has always cultivated some of the most innovative church leaders. And kids ministry is a growth engine behind the fastest growing churches today. To reopen your church without a kids ministry, I would contest, is not actually reopening the church. Listen in today as I’ve gathered four kids ministry experts from across the […]

Turning Up the Volume on Reaching Unchurched People with Brett Bixby Jul 02, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m excited to have Brett Bixby join us from Bridgewater Church – a multisite church with campuses in New York and Pennsylvania. Founded in 1807, Bridgewater Church plateaued for many years with most of their growth being transfer growth rather than new salvations. But fifteen years […]

5 Reopening Phase Opportunities for Multisite Churches Jun 30, 2020

The multisite church movement is the most pervasive innovation in the local church in the last 20 years. Yes, even more impactful than the current shift to digital. Across the country, this movement has generated tens of thousands of new connections between local churches and those living in the communities around them. Many multisite churches […]

Leading When You’re Young & Starting During a Crisis with Brent Ingersoll Jun 25, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. I’m really excited to talk with Brent Ingersoll, senior pastor of the multisite Kings Church in Canada. Kings Church was planted in a suburb of St. John, New Brunswick over 30 years ago but then encountered a crisis in 2012 when there was a moral failure within the senior […]

5 Reopening Phase Church Growth Tactics Jun 23, 2020

There are a lot of “doomsday conversations” happening in church leadership circles about how COVID-19 and the ensuing economic crisis have brought on the end of the local church. But I am a glass-three-quarters-full kind of leader. I believe that this is actually an incredible season where you can see your church reach more people […]

Increasing Your Church’s Generosity Culture with Steve Stroope Jun 18, 2020

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re in for a real treat talking with Steve Stroope from Lake Pointe Church in Texas. Steve started as the first pastor at Lake Point Church about forty years ago and has since passed the baton to Josh Howerton. Lake Pointe began with a launch team of […]

5 Fears About Reopening that Church Staff Aren’t Telling Their Leaders Jun 16, 2020

This has been a strange season to be working in the local church. Just a few months ago, we all made the pivot to entirely digital and that felt like the biggest change in our history of leading in the local church. At that point, we thought it would only be a few weeks that […]

Building High Trust Teams in Your Church with Rob Deveney Jun 11, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we are talking to Rob Deveney, executive pastor at Twin Rivers Church. Twin Rivers Church is located in St. Louis, Missouri. It started as a small denominational church, but has grown over the last 90 years into three locations around St. Louis. Rob is with us today to […]

Positive Partnerships for Community Impact with Alan Murdock May 28, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Alan Murdock, who works with the organization Project Connect Nashville. Project Connect Nashville was formed in response to some historic flooding which occurred ten years ago in the Nashville area. But today rather than solely focusing on disaster relief, they primarily build relationships with individuals that are […]

Leading Through Change in Your Church with Larry Wren May 21, 2020

Thanks for tuning in to this week’s podcast. We’re talking with Larry Wren, Executive Pastor at Pathway Church in the Witchita, Kansas area. Pathway Church began in 1959 and has become one of the fastest growing churches in the country as they’ve shifted their focus over the last ten years to children’s ministry and reaching […]

Lies about Work, Life, and Love That Are Impacting Your People Today with Daniel Im May 14, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Daniel Im, the Senior Associate Pastor of Beulah Alliance Church in Edmonton, Canada. We’ll be talking about Daniel’s book You Are What You Do: And Six Other Lies about Work, Life, and Love and its application in today’s world. The gig economy. // The gig […]

Leading Through Big Changes in a 100+ Year Old Church with John Hill May 07, 2020

Welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with John Hill from First Church in Wheatfield, Indiana. Being diagnosed with a cyst in his brain made John think about where his life was going and prompted him to pursue his dream to have greater kingdom impact by pastoring a church. In 2014 John and his family […]

Surprising Role of Systems in the Health of Church Staff with Wayne Stewart Apr 23, 2020

Thanks for listening in to this week’s unSeminary podcast. With us today is Wayne Stewart, Pastor of Support Ministries at Christ Community Church in Ames, Iowa. Christ Community Church is in central Iowa near a university and so the church is home to a very diverse crowd of international students rooted in a stable, caring […]

Critical Human Resource Issues in Growing Churches with Tiffany Henning Apr 16, 2020

Thanks for joining us on this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Tiffany Henning from HR Ministry Solutions. HR Ministry Solutions is a religious non-profit founded in 2016 which helps with the resources side of running a church. We’re talking with Tiffany today about how to resource your church staff well. More than just […]

Releasing Volunteer Staff to Increase Your Church’s Impact with Jeremy Jernigan Apr 09, 2020

Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Lead Pastor Jeremy Jernigan from Abundant Life Church in Portland, Oregon. Every church out there would like to engage more people, but it’s tough when you’re working with finite resources. Listen in as Jeremy talks about the limits Abundant Life Church encountered when it came to […]

5 Simple Ways to Increase Your Church’s Digital Easter Attendance Apr 07, 2020

He is risen. He is risen, indeed. This coming weekend, the church across the world will be celebrating the death and resurrection of Jesus, a story at the very center of our faith. It’s the story of victory over death. It’s the story of lives transformed. It’s central to what we do as a local […]

Decisions Today for a Stronger Financial Future Tomorrow Apr 04, 2020

CARES Act The impetus behind the funds being issued by the CARES Act is to keep people employed and on your payroll. The default is to the employee and the intent is to keep cash flowing in the economy. As church leaders, we also want to default towards caring for our staff. If you qualify, […]

Effective Churches Will Make This Shift Apr 03, 2020

“You can teach people analysis, but you can’t teach them experience.” – Matt Mashburn We’re heading into a time where the future of staffing and team development will look very different. As church leaders, we will inevitably be facing some tough decisions around staffing in the near future, and that may mean severances of staff […]

How to Spread HOPE Faster Than COVID-19 Apr 02, 2020

“Now is not the time for the church to be on pause, it’s time for her to be on mission.” – Ed Stetzer When thinking about mobilizing our people to meet needs at this time, we as church leaders should be thinking through our strengths, our weaknesses, and our opportunities. Start this process of giving […]

Gearing Up for a Digital Easter Mar 31, 2020

A few weeks ago, streaming wasn’t necessarily a part of your church’s regular operations. Now we’re all video streaming and trying to find solutions before the Easter season. The why, where, and how of video streaming The why, where, and how of video streaming are its first principles. The “why” is pretty evident: to connect […]

Continuing Intentional Community in a Socially Distant World Mar 28, 2020

A mentorship relationship starts with purpose and intentional relationship. Kevin stated that, “More time with fewer people is greater kingdom impact.” At Radical Mentorship, their mentorship groups are high commitment, as they call their participants to application and high standards. Radical Mentoring’s groups meet once a month for three hours at the homes of mentors […]

How the “Families First Coronavirus Response Act” Is Impacting Your Church Today Mar 27, 2020

Disclaimer: None of this information is legal or tax advice and you are not entitled to rely upon it. If you have any questions, we advise you to refer to your own legal counsel. Families First Coronavirus Response Act This Act requires employers to provide paid sick time to employees who are unable to work […]

The Portable Church Advantage in the Midst of The Crisis Mar 26, 2020

Livestreaming Best Practices With church going online, Kevin reminded us that “churches are all equalized now; they’re just a click away.” Your church now has the same tools to bring content to your people as every other church out there. Even so, with the church entering the digital realm like never before, there is a […]

Leading through Volatility and Uncertainty Mar 25, 2020

How do we lead well during this time of volatility and uncertainty? Rick pointed to the acronym “VUCA” as one way of understanding our current context: Volatility // This element has to do with the instability of the unexpected. For us today, this includes the shifting financial markets, the constantly changing numbers of the COVID-19 […]

3 Types of Data Pastors Need for Crisis Response Mar 24, 2020

Webinar Notes & Quotes “Churches are about the business of personal growth, whether that’s helping people grow spiritually, or grow in their marriages, their relationships, their finances, their recovery, their career, whatever that might be.” -Brad Hill “Today is about taking capabilities that we’ve really worked hard to build and then how do we apply them […]

Starting Strong in a Church Job with Charles Stone Mar 19, 2020

Thanks for joining us for this week’s unSeminary podcast. Today we’re talking with Charles Stone, pastor at the very multicultural WestPark Church in London, Ontario, Canada. In seminary they don’t teach pastors what to do when starting at a new church, but there’s much more to the job than preaching the Gospel and visiting people. […]

COVID-19 Roundtable: Lessons from a Church Plant & a Megachurch Mar 18, 2020

We’re happy to bring you a special roundtable discussion around how COVID-19 is impacting churches across the country. In this episode, you’ll hear from two church leaders on the front lines of responding to the current crisis. In this roundtable conversation you’ll hear more about: The thought process behind how these churches came the decisions […]

Developing Teams & Building People with Bill Krause Mar 12, 2020

Welcome to this week’s unSeminary podcast. We’re excited to talk with Bill Krause from Eagle Christian Church in Idaho. Eagle Christian Church is a multisite church with three campuses near Boise, Idaho and is celebrating 25 years in 2020. Bill is with us today to talk about the revamped system and mindset Eagle Christian Church adopted […]

Behind the Scenes of Mergers, Multisite & Campus Upgrades with Jason Held Mar 05, 2020

Thanks for listening in to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Jason Held, the Executive Pastor of Administration at Journey Church, which has campuses in Wisconsin as well as a campus in Lithuania. Jason is with us today to talk about how Journey Church overcame the technological challenges that are inevitable […]

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