Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno

**Conscious Life Conscious Death: A Book by Craig Scharton** Sep 22, 2021

Paul and Craig talk about Craig’s newest project: his book Conscious Life Conscious Death!

Transcript Transcribed by AI (not 100% accurate)

[00:00:00] This is the two guys talking Fresno podcast, the podcast with two guys talking about Fresno. Your hosts are Craig sharp, a lifelong Fresno who loves his community, even though it drives him bonkers and Paul gin, a transplant Freston, who’s lived in Fresno for more years than he has it. And he wouldn’t live anywhere else.
It’s time for two guys to talk Fresno. Here’s Craig and Paul on the two guys talking Fresno podcast.
Paul: Here we are long time. No, see Craig. I know,
Craig: but I’m wearing the same shirt today. One of those pictures, I only have two shirts. So I guess the odds are that I’d be wearing the same shirt
Paul: I do too. I’m wearing my Fresno Grizzlies
Like this is an old school, Fresno baseball. T-shirt from way back when, and it’s perfectly comfortable. Oh, it’s the perfect, [00:01:00] t-shirt perfectly
Craig: new crying. You cry when you first feel that first hole or see that the seams are starting to go.
Paul: Yeah, I’ve got a couple that I still have the hole in, but I’m still keeping them anyway because it just feels so nice to wear.
So, but then with two guys talking Fresno, I can act like this is theme oriented rather than comfort, so right. Have
Craig: you planned
Paul: it ahead? Yes, exactly. So we haven’t done a lot of podcasts lately, but here we are back and we’re going to jump back into it.
Craig: That’s good. Yeah, we both needed a little break last year was, uh, not only COVID but politics and all that stuff.
And I think we were just worn out.
Paul: Yeah, I think, I think we needed that debrief time. Everybody needed that. And then it kind of ran its course. And I, I think we got through the election and that guy wasn’t reelected and we all kind of yeah,
Craig: yeah. [00:02:00] Until January.
Paul: Yeah. It’s not to say there wasn’t craziness in the midst there, but, uh, and still is, but the good news is we’re going to get back to talking a little bit more about Fresno.
We had to talk COVID we had to talk politics and now we can talk forever.
Craig: Yeah, well, we had to some of our, uh, great, uh, listeners or Watchers, you know, commenting saying more Fresno stuff, more Fresno stuff. So that was a good reminder for us. And we do listen to your comments or read your comments and, and take that to heart.
And that’s what we started for. So you just brought us back to where we meant. Yeah.
Paul: And if people have ideas, post them on our Facebook page or send us an email through the website to guys fresno.com and let us know what you’d like for us to talk about, because we are getting back to being two guys talking about Fresno.
And today, Craig, I’m really excited because we’re going to talk [00:03:00] to a great Fresno author. He’s fairly new to the, uh, the, the title of author, but it’s been coming for quite a while, but he’s very well known by presidents,
Craig: right? Well, we will see you’re turning the tables on me.
Paul: I wrote my book. I got to be a guest on the show and today our very, very special guest is author Craig Sharpton.
Welcome to the show, Craig.
Craig: Thanks Paul. It’s a, it’s an interesting process. That’s for sure.
Paul: Go ahead.
Craig: Well, I always, you know, I, every time someone becomes an author, I always say there’s, you know, 98% of the people are working on a book and there’s a few that, that actually get it to be a product. And I always admired that people.
So, uh, but I’ve got to say, it’s, it’s a weird feeling. When you say you’re one of them, you see your baby in [00:04:00] print. It’s very strange. Isn’t it? It
Paul: sure is. And the book is called conscious life conscious death. It’s a, that’s an intriguing title for sure. Do you have it with you? Can you hold it up?
Craig: I said, so lighthearted comedy, a little,
Paul: little tome conscious life, conscious death.
Show us the cover. That looks cool. No,
Craig: I’ve got the highlighter in there. I didn’t want to drop, probably have a little bit of glare. Yeah.
Paul: Hold it up just a little bit higher. So it’s, that’s a ladder with two
Craig: pencils. Yeah. So it’s an, uh, an idea for a new religion. So principles represent the idea and, uh, the latter represents something I’ll read about in a little bit.
If you
Paul: ask me to, I will, and I want to get to the idea that this is about a new religion. Is this a then a heretical book that you’re putting out? What is conscious life conscious death about?
Craig: [00:05:00] Well, let’s see. I, uh, so it is an idea that, um, there’s a whole bunch of people that have their own religion. No, right
Paul: off the bat.
You’re going to forget your elevator pitch down a little bit better.
Craig: Well, you’re my first, this is the first interview.
It’s all a little squishy for me, but yeah, there’s people that have their own religion. And then there are people that don’t like religion at all. And so this is something in between. It is not a. Uh, DST religion. It’s not a, uh, it doesn’t have a goddess component to it. It is for people that would like to treat, uh, raising their own consciousness as if it were a religious person and make it a religious pursuit.
So it’s really about my consciousness is here. I would like it to be here. I’m going to work on that and it’d be really cool to work on it with other people as well. And we could encourage each other [00:06:00] and support each other. And I could post a book that I read and you can tell me about a conversation that you had or a speech that you went to.
And, uh, and we could continue to inform each other on ways through science or philosophy or even religions to, uh, to have a more conscious life.
Paul: So there’s a lot of people that write books about religion. I’ve got a bunch of them on my shelves around this room, but you’re, you have literally written.
Creating a new
Craig: religion. Yeah. Well, and that’s, that’s the, that’s the weird part. That’s the part that feels a little bit like jumping off of a cliff. Um, because I know that’s an unusual thing, but I also, I, religion is such an interesting thing. The way that it affects our lives is, you know, having been a religious person, it is always on your mind.
It is in your activities. You know, you, you know what you can eat and can’t eat based on your religion. [00:07:00] When you’re supposed to wake up who you can marry, how many kids you can have or not have, like all of these things, you know, how you give thanks for your food. It’s all tied up in your religion. So there’s really nothing else, like a religion that affects every part of your life.
And so if you want to raise your consciousness, Treating it as if it were any other religion, um, taking that into everything that you do, you know, we’ll hopefully give you the focus and the continued reminder, and then Centive to keep, keep working on your consciousness.
Paul: So is, is it, uh, a religion with, with rules and is it, is it at, in multi with other religions?
Are you trying to take people out of their religion into something new?
Craig: Well, uh, not really. Um, you know, it really, uh, a lot of it, you know, is a little bit libertarian, I guess every person is [00:08:00] ultimately responsible, should they choose to, to increase their own consciousness. And, um, and there are as many ways to do that as there are people.
Um, you could certainly bring your thoughts about your existing religion into this. And in fact, most religions have kind of an esoteric, uh, wing to them. Uh, there are certainly esoteric Christian beliefs, CA you know, within Catholicism, within Judaism, uh, within Islam that are much more consciousness focused.
Um, this just as it, without the baggage of that, you don’t need to have that stuff. You can just simply say, I’m this level of consciousness. I would like to see how high I can get if I continue to work on my consciousness.
Paul: So is there, is there a deity in your religion? I think you mentioned that and R and R you it,
Craig: no, in fact, I am the flawed leader that [00:09:00] nobody should follow.
I am not making any claims to any special knowledge. Um, I’d say that the thing that I really bring to this as a person who has run nonprofits and businesses and, and worked in government and all these different things that I’ve done in my life is it’s really given me more of, I would say my. My participation in this is really understanding organizationally how it could work, um, rather than thinking about dogma or those kinds of things.
I really want to simplify it too much to say, if we’re not sure about something you go back to, I want to increase my level of consciousness. Number two is we want to increase our level of consciousness as a group. So how do we help each other out? And then the third part is also in the name. Also the catchy little title is thinking about how to have a conscious death.
Um, and those are the three main things. [00:10:00] Anything else is up for grams?
Paul: I think that’s important to define cause I’m sure. I mean, it’s a it’s it’s catching and people are going to want to hear when you say this is a new religion, but just, uh, it can throw people for a loop perhaps in good to define that you’re not creating a new deity.
You’re not creating a new Bible. You’re just talking about ways people can reach higher consciousness. Right. Maybe that’s something we’ll go ahead and say, and then let’s define consciousness after you respond to that. Yeah. Well,
Craig: I w I would say that, uh, it is possible to read most of the existing religions as, um, as avenues to increase your consciousness, but I would, I would submit, and I think I could come up with enough evidence that rather than focusing on consciousness, uh, they tend to get sidetracked in, you know, arguing over what a word means or passage, or as you know, is this a [00:11:00] shellfish or is that a shellfish?
What’s a clove. And have, you know, like, there’s, there’s a whole bunch of stuff.
Paul: Are gay people going to heaven or are they not doing crazy stuff?
Craig: Yeah, it does. Does the earth revolve around the sun or is it flag around. We can get, we can really get wrapped up in all of these side arguments, I would say, instead of keeping that focus and that focus is really what this is about.
If you don’t have the focus to do the work, to increase your consciousness, it’s far less likely that it will ever happen.
Paul: No, I’m pretty convinced when you read that story about this guy, Jesus, he didn’t actually come to create this exclusive religion. I think he was displaying what living life to the full looks like, which may play into what your higher level of consciousness looks like.
So let’s define consciousness. I think you had an excerpt from the book you wanted to [00:12:00] read to show us what consciousness is.
Craig: Well, and, and consciousness is really, uh, a big subject of science right now, too. And that’s really just about, you know, your awareness or, uh, you can even say, uh, If you go back to Maslow, you know, being self-actualized and bullying beyond yourself, be it going beyond where you are right now.
Um, making decisions based on something other than your own internal programming. I want this, I want that. Or external programming. You need to be like this. You need to be like that is starting to know who you are and start to make decisions based on that information kind of free of those, of those other pressures or constraints.
So, yeah. Cool. Yeah. You got
Paul: an excerpt to read on
Craig: that. I do. Cause you asked me to have an extra, so I did
Paul: one. Yes. We always want to hear an author reading his own, his or her own. [00:13:00]
Craig: Okay. That’s the first time I’ve done it. You know, I like it. Alright.
Paul: Consciously, other than the last time where we recorded or didn’t record this project, but that’s a whole nother Minnie won’t know, hearing this podcast that we did this podcast once before and somebody on the screen, I won’t say me forgot to hit the record button.
So here we are again.
Craig: Wow. We call that dress rehearsal. Yes,
Paul: we do. All right. Read your excerpt for us.
Craig: Consciousness is an ideal. I think of ideals as distant goals that we can strive toward without ever reaching them with each bit of progress that we make towards our ideals. They reveal new insights, understandings, and perspectives.
I imagine that increasing our level of consciousness is like climbing an infinite rope ladder. It takes work and energy and maybe even encouragement to climb. But as we climb with each new run that we [00:14:00] advance our perspective changes, we can see further as the horizon lengthens. So that is the latter reference in the, in the, uh, on the cover as well.
So, you know, you can just imagine that climbing up. It does take work. It does take focus and effort. Um, and that as I read philosophy or religion, it’s not a, it’s not a soft thing. You know, I can’t just take a vitamin or light an incense or, you know, put, wear certain clothing. That’s going to get me there.
It’s going to be something that I have to work on. Um, but as we do that, and I have worked on these things in my life and your perspectives do change. And I’m sure you’ve seen that too. As you, as you meditate on the golden rule about loving your neighbor as yourself, you know, when you read it as a kid, it’s this one.
And then you read it a little bit later and it’s a different thing and it just keeps [00:15:00] changing. And then you find yourself putting it into practice, you know, like you see a car broken down, you know, in the middle of nowhere at night. And you’re like, well, I don’t really want to stop. And then you think, well, what if that was me?
Or what if that was someone I love? And then you stop and then you help someone and your life expands each time you do that. Right? Regardless of what that is. As, as we begin to practice that, now we know we’re not doing it perfectly, right. I mean, I don’t know about you, but I know not yet. At least I still have a long way to go, but I do know that each time I make progress, I go up another rung in that ladder that I am, I’ve become a better person, which means I’m probably better to the people around me.
You know, I have more to contribute, man. Um, I could help someone else. Maybe who’s just beginning to think about it and share what I’ve learned or [00:16:00] experience. And we can take that, you know, that ideal is one, that’s obviously a huge one, but we can focus on that the rest of our lives. And there are other ideals that we can do as well.
You know, we can talk about how do I live on this planet in a healthy way that can be a big deal. Um, or how can I, you know, one that I know I struggle with is how can I, um, live a healthy life, right? How can I physically healthy? You mean? Yeah, mentally healthy, physically healthy, spiritually health, all of these things, as we work on them, we can get better at them just as if we were learning a new language or a musical instrument or whatever it is with practice.
We get better. You know, and then hopefully you get, you know, some amount of practice and then all of a sudden things really start to begin to make sense. And, and, uh, the ideas kind of coalesce in you. Hmm.
Paul: It hasn’t that sort [00:17:00] of the goal of life, you know, if I’m know I’ve learned from the mistakes my parents made and try not to make the same mistakes to transfer them onto my kids or, or for, you know, some who’ve been divorced.
Can I learn to do this better or have relationships in a better way? I mean, isn’t that the goal of life, and even then generationally, can we hand something better to the next generation then than what we were given? I know that’s not necessarily being displayed in the current generation perhaps, but isn’t that the goal of life?
Craig: Well, and that’s that’s yeah, it is. And I think part of why we don’t get there, you know, I’m not sure. I don’t want to bad mouth existing religions, but I will say that, you know, we know that they get off base, you know, it’s, they can miss the point of why they exist. And I think that’s what happens. And when that happens, you know, like any other entity, you know, and [00:18:00] this is something we, we always have to be careful of is they start becoming self-protective and then they want their growth.
And they, you know, it takes on a life of their own, you know, we see that with government or business or religion. And so this is kind of stripping it all away and say, let’s not have all those sorts of stories that we need to fight about whether there was a burning Bush or whether it was actually lightning or what, you know, like a fireflies, like who cares.
Right. That’s keep going back to the point. And I would argue that the point of all of it is to become more conscious beings. And then, um, You know, try to live in this world together better, uh, you know, with others. And also, you know, the proof is in the pudding on how we treat our plan, you know, which, yeah.
I don’t know how you believe in the garden of Eden and then, you know, think it’s okay. That wildfires burning all around you [00:19:00] and your children breathing smoke. I mean, I don’t see how existing government or religion or business are going to change things fast enough on their own. We can’t wait for them to change.
And so that would be part of my reasoning is we need to just start over focus on the main thing and hopefully end up with a different result. Yeah. And if
Paul: we just make humanity a little bit better in each generation, move it forward a little bit, then, then we’ve really done something. And so that’s, that’s a that’s great stuff.
By the way, you said the goal, the golden rule is actually do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You’re right. You’re right. And what you quoted was Jesus making the 10 commandments into two commandments. Love your neighbor. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
Craig: Yeah. Thank you. That is, that is true.
I agree with you. Yes. Distinction, Paul.
Paul: Yeah. Yes. That was great [00:20:00] consciousness, but I think you’re right. I think religion in its exclusiveness and really what we see now is religion in the west. That’s exclusive around nationality as not just religious beliefs, but nationality and race, or at least cultural norms as well.
Um, it’s it is going to push against us becoming better as the human race.
Craig: Yeah, well, and that’s it as it pushes away. And we’ve seen this before. I mean, one of the greatest, you know, the greatest, uh, example I’ve seen in history is, you know, you start with, you know, love your neighbor as yourself and, you know, few hundred years later, you’re burning people at the stake, you know, like how do you get that from that core message over to this aberrant behavior?
And, and I think that’s what happens. And I think that’s, what’s happening now with a lot of that, you know, whether, whether it’s jihadism or whether it’s, you know, white [00:21:00] evangelical fundamentalism or the Catholic church, you know, and, and, uh, issues with, uh, child abuse. I mean, you know, you just have all of these abberant behaviors that come out and I’m, I guess I’m saying let’s just start over.
Let’s start out with something very basic. Um, don’t follow anyone. Don’t follow me. Like, can we agree on some basic principles? And then let’s just focus on that. And then through absolute a hundred percent transparency, um, some mechanisms I’ve tried to put into place that could keep us from getting off track, um, at least as far, or staying off track, um, you know, that maybe we can keep, I referenced this.
I remember a lady that, uh, an elderly lady that I know she had this, uh, magnet on her refrigerators that said, uh, remember to keep the main thing, the [00:22:00] main thing. And it’s just one of those little, little sayings, but if you take that, literally, it’s really a very powerful saying and, and that’s, that’s, that’s really, I think what I’m trying to do with this to say let’s strip all the nonsense.
We’re never going to figure out most of these things we’re arguing over. Anyway, many of them happened 4,000 years ago. So, you know, it’s just my opinion versus you have your opinion ultimately, and we’re arguing over something that’s been edited and rewritten, you know, by who knows how many people. So let’s just skip all of that and go back to the main points.
And, um, and I, I would argue again that, uh, consciousness is one of those, one of those main points.
Paul: Yeah. And I, and I honestly believe, um, and you and I have been walking this journey with me a little bit of my belief system being changed in all of this. And I, I think what you’re [00:23:00] talking about really is the story of, of Jesus that Jesus saying.
Let it be on earth as it is in heaven in the Lord’s prayer was saying, let us bring this idea of goodness down and see it exist on earth. And it, and none of it was about getting people to say a sinner’s prayer and join a particular church and declare everybody else is being dying in the flood. Yeah.
Craig: Outsiders equal. Yeah.
Paul: It was about self sacrificial living for everybody. And that’s what Jesus demonstrated. So I, I don’t think this, what you’re saying is, is truly at antithesis with the story of Jesus at all. It may be a little bit, uh, would be difficult for some Christians that I know today, but not the original guy that they sort of point to for
Craig: all of this.
Well, and I, after this, I won’t say the idea occurred to me, but it started crystallized in me about conscious life consciously. [00:24:00] I re-read the gospels something I’ve read several times or a few times I should say. And, and it just screamed at me. I was like, this is, this is the point. Like, you know, it’s, uh, it really is, could be that, you know, one of the great conscious life conscious, just stories in history about, you know, I, I, Jesus had the ability to not do what he did.
Right. Right. Even in the Christian texts, it’s like, you haven’t, he had ways out of it, but you thought about it bottle, like up to the end, he kept going like this really
Paul: there’s gotta be another way. What are we
Craig: thinking? What, who came up with this plan? But, but he did it eyes open, you know, carrying that cry.
Getting abused. Like he did it like that is the conscious part. Right. [00:25:00] And, um, Socrates, very similar kind of a thing, you know, very wrongfully accused. Um, actually the people that didn’t like him didn’t like him because he was doing really good things and they just found a way to blame him. And, um, you know, he had the hemlock to drink and his friend said, look, we can get you out of here.
In fact, the people who were condemning him were hoping that he would just, you know, go, go live on an island somewhere and quit bothering them. And he said, no, I’m not going to be able to make the change if I sneak off in the middle of the night, you know? And, and he went into it eyes wide open. And, you know, I, I just see that throughout art, throughout history, throughout philosophy, um, we see that kind of thing where.
You know, your, your, your life has completely, I mean, you could, you could look at the, uh, at the star wars movies. Right. You know, I mean, obiwan is a classic [00:26:00] mythological figure and, you know, he, he quits fighting and lets himself, you know, be killed. Right. And that is a classic, uh, you know, Joseph Campbell was involved with those, a great mythologist to make sure that those first two movies really followed the classical mythological lines.
And, and that’s part of those stories exist everywhere in the world, you know? And then it is a consistent thing.
Paul: It’s interesting. I do keep comparing this back to sort of the GAO Christian Bible, uh, because I was having a discussion with someone this week about. You know, the why’s of why, why would an omnipotent omniscient God allow a child to be repeatedly molested, you know, kind of a thing and, you know, and, and have the answer.
Well, you know, who, you know, God’s ways are higher than our ways, you know, that kind of answer. And did you see, you know, job, 38 is all about God telling Joe, who are you to [00:27:00] like question me because I, and so I went back and read, I like you, I went back and read the story and read the book of job. And the, the conclusion of the book of job is job saying, I’m going to ask questions and you’re going to answer them.
You know, him talking to God or talking to heaven, I’m going to ask questions. You’re going to answer them. And I’m going to go from being a person whose ears had heard about you to somebody who’s eyes has now who eyes have now seen you. And I thought that was such a fascinating thing that, that he was saying through the, through the suffering and maybe, you know, being present or conscious as you’re talking about through the suffering, asking the questions of why is this happening to me, wrestling with those subjects.
He comes out at the end saying my eyes. Now I’ve seen, I know something I didn’t know before and life is better because of it. And, uh, so anyway, I guess that, is that a sense of what you’re trying to tell us through this? [00:28:00] Yeah.
Craig: Well, and that’s, I would say it’s, it’s it shines through I, once you see it, you’ll see it start popping up all over the place.
Um, you know, some, some very, you know, I, I. I look at movies, stories, whatever, and it pops up, especially in really good ones. Um, like dead man walking is an interesting one that, uh, Susan Surandon, uh, was in that movie as the nun. And, uh, Sean Penn was a, you know, troubled prisoner. And, you know, at the end, you know, the true shall set you free, which is another ideal that you can strive toward your whole life knowing you’ll never get it perfectly, but you can keep moving toward that ideal.
And, you know, and there’s that scene at the end where he’s getting executed and they haven’t laid out. And it basically is like a cross. And, and that, that [00:29:00] conscious awareness that he finally went into at the end, you know, changed everything. I mean, it just, it changed his, his death, but it changed everyone around him.
And, you know, it was. It’s a, it’s a quite a consistent theme. Um, so yeah, so I wouldn’t say that, you know, I think for a Buddhist, I mean, you know, they don’t get quite as wrapped into, you know, us versus them as much, uh, by a long shot. But I think for some of the other maybe Abrahamic religions, uh, it’ll be challenging for some, um, but you know, we have friends that have read early manuscripts of this, helping me out you and a few of a few others.
And none of them was really horrified by the blast for me, or, you know, the radical nature of it, because that’s really not what it’s about. In fact, um, a couple of them have said, you know, as I move into what a church could be, they’ve said, [00:30:00] yeah, this is what we’ve always thought a church should be is, uh, operating differently than, than we’ve we’ve had them operate in traditions.
That’s
Paul: good. Well, we want to tell people how to get the book in just a second. Let’s let’s take a quick break. We always do a segment on the show called know your guests. So when we come back after this little break, we’ll ask Craig the Telus to answer the big questions about who he is. And, uh, and then we’ll ask how he came about writing this book.
As two guys talking, Fresno continues,
Craig: got a thought. Send us a comment on the two guys talking Fresno, Facebook page or on our website too guys. fresno.com. We’ll answer back. We promise now back to the issues. Two guys talk in Fresno, Craig and
Paul: Paul. All right. Two guys talking Fresno, Craig and Paul and Craig Sharpton.
We want to know our guests, tell us who you are, where you came from and what high school you went to and, and [00:31:00] help us to know our guests here.
Craig: All right. Well, yeah, I was born in Fresno at the old Glen Agnes hospital over on fruit. And, uh, I have lived here all but three and a half years of my life. Um, in the late nineties, I was up in the bay area in Pleasanton, but, um, but somehow my life and Fresno’s life got intertwined when I was young.
And, uh, I emotionally got interested in, in how we could, uh, fix the neighborhoods in our downtown, um, that ended up in some very bad shape, but I also was a kid that was always very fascinated by religion. Um, I, uh, I went to church, you know, sometimes, uh, my dad would wake up and drive me to church and drop me off and come pick me up.
Um, we weren’t an anti-religious house, but we weren’t really dogmatically religious [00:32:00] house by a long shot. Um, and I, I loved it, you know, I loved going to Sunday school and vacation Bible school and learning and, and, uh, I just couldn’t soak it up enough. I started reading the Bible. I read the whole Bible chapter by chapter, um, at a fairly young age.
I always say I skipped the begats, you know, once even, I don’t even remember which book that is now, but, you know, when it gets into like two pages of who began at home, um, I lost, I glossed over that part. Um, good for you. Yeah, but, uh, but, and I was also up and I had several friends in, uh, high school and junior high school that were Mormon and I would go to church with them.
Um, my neighbor, Mrs. Vaughn behind us would take me to people’s church with. Um, I went to the Catholic church a few times with my friends across the street and, uh, a girlfriend in high school, [00:33:00] uh, early on, was Catholic. And I went to mass with her and, and then ended up dating, uh, uh, Shawna Kirkwood, who we had on an earlier show.
And, uh, her dad, wasn’t a Pisco, both priests. So, you know, I, I kept going all the, you know, even until I was in college, I would go to church by myself and, and, uh, I would go, especially, we had this one great guy, Dean Roth at St. James, the late great Dean Roth. And he would, you know, he had just this wall of books of psychology and the theology and, you know, every poet and, you know, and he would incorporate all of that into his sermons.
And, um, you know, he, he and I could just sit and talk in his study for hours, you know, so that was very interesting. Um, You have to kind of have that component of my life. And I’m glad I did because it, it, you know, a lot of what I’d say I learned later, you know, and then I [00:34:00] became an atheist and then I, now I say I’m an agnostic because I don’t think anyone really knows.
So that’s much more interesting for me to try to try to wonder and learn then say I know stuff.
Paul: Yeah. I think it takes great faith to be an
Craig: atheist. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s just a little, it’s kind of a little annoying, but, uh, but I do have a lot of atheist friends as well. In fact, one of my really fun nights when I had peeves public house down on the Fulton mall was I had a group of my LOL neighbors were meeting in one corner, uh, all Christians and then the, the.
Atheists. I can’t remember what they call themselves, but they’re an atheist agnostics group. They would meet there too. And it turned out they were there on the same night and I introduced them to each other and they just talked for hours. It was fantastic. That’s what I learned. But I went out, I went to Bullard high school.
Yes, I [00:35:00] did in 1980. And, um, I will be 60. And, uh, we’re recording this on August 9th and I’ll be 60 on August 11th. And, uh, you just went to my birthday. We just
Paul: celebrated you your 60th birthday. And now were you on the swim team at Bullard? Did I see swim team pictures in your little montage there at your party?
Craig: Yeah, the, the, the pictures of the Speedo. Yeah. I started swimming when I was five at Figerdon swim and racquet club and my parents dropped me off. The coach yelled at me to start swimming and I swam. And, uh, I, I jokingly say I became a backstroker because I got tired of looking at the black line as is, from my fun down.
At least I could look up the sky and see clouds, um, and then played water polo, which, you know, after you’ve been swimming [00:36:00] for six or seven years, when someone throws a ball in the pool and you get to play a game. Oh my God. Yeah. Much better. So, but it gets ugly under the water there. Doesn’t it? Well, it does.
Yes. In fact, our coach would actually, they would teach us how to cheat, uh, uh, which was part of the game. Like how to pretend like you got fouled and you know, all that, our foul without getting caught.
Paul: It’s not like cheating, cheating. It’s it’s everybody knows it’s if you can get away with it.
Craig: It’s okay.
Yeah. We had this one guy in and you’d be sitting there like this waiting for the, for the ball. And he was behind you. You know, trying to, you know, get, keep you from getting the ball. And he was so strong with one leg. It could pull you under the water without having his hands going, but just one leg he’d pull you under.
You’d be drowning. And he’s just sitting there with his hands in the air. No file here.
Paul: That’s great. Well, you kind of alluded to it, but how did, how did all of [00:37:00] this lead to you writing this book? Where did this inspiration come from and deciding I’m going to sit down and write a book about this all.
Craig: Well, I have in the mid nineties, I had, you know, a really, uh, uh, what would you say?
Like, uh, I had a whole bunch of things all crashing in my life at the same time. Um, so I, I, you could call it a midlife crisis or, or, um, you know, just know life reset, life reset. Yeah. That’s a good way to send just a whole bunch of stuff happening bad and good. Uh, and I just ended up at a place where I suddenly was really hungry for learning about the things that used to matter with me.
I mean, one of them was my, my thyroid cancer came back and, you know, I had, you know, a bunch of lymph nodes taken out and all that. So I, um, I jokingly came out after I got the [00:38:00] diagnosis and looked at the sky and said, I prayed for growth, not a growth, but I knew I was the joke to myself was I knew that there were one in the same.
So I, um, you know, I, I started going back to reading, um, and I was just reading stacks of books again, philosophy from Plato to Carl Young, to Joseph Campbell, to the Bible, to, um, Buddhism, to gosh, psychology, a lot of psychology. And just really looking at where they overlapped, you know, rather than look at the differences which you can do.
You can also look at what is, what are the common themes, holding these, all these things together. And consciousness seemed to be the thing. And I was reading about, you know, how to be more conscious from a variety of writers over history and in one of them, uh, [00:39:00] he’s asked, uh, why do you want to live a more conscious life?
And, uh, he answered to have a more conscious death. And I thought that ties all of this together, back to the gospels, back to play, uh, Socrates back to Joseph Campbell, talking about the American Indians work cry, which was today is a great day to die and having just had cancer again, it was, it was, and I was going to.
Training to become a hospice volunteer and all of that. And just, I was facing my own mortality. And as I’ve done that in my life, my life always gets better. I say that the day after you have cancer, you know, the colors get brighter. Once you, once you realize that you’re a mortal and that you have a given amount of time here and, um, you know, it’s scary to people and it seems more of a descend people [00:40:00] terrifies, you know, many, um, but you know, once you face it and if you do face it squarely, then, um, it loses power over you.
And it also makes you appreciate, well, made me appreciate things more. Um, I became more grateful and more loving. Um, I took risks that I wouldn’t have taken. I mean, I would have never run for city council. I would have never opened a restaurant. Um, but my goal became, I’m more afraid of wasting my life than, um, you know, then having people laugh at me or ridicule me or failing at something, um, that all changed.
Um, and so is
Paul: that what conscious death means? You have a book called conscious life, conscious death. That’s a, that’s a religion and it can make you think of, uh, you know, the crack suicide squads in life of Brian, where they all run up and commit suicide
Craig: and it’s [00:41:00] over
Paul: the movement has ended right there.
But so conscious death is about knowing you fulfilled your purpose sort of, or have filled the time. Well,
Craig: yeah. And the Stoics do this quite a bit, which is, you know, Like facing your mortality and, you know, and remembering that every day might be your last day, you know, before you go to bed, say, I don’t know if I’m going to wake up and when you wake up, you go, well, I woke up again, here’s another great day.
What am I going to accomplish? How am I going to grow? How am I going to affect the people in the world around me? And so it’s not morbid. I mean, our society is just so desk, death averse, you know, we all know this. We all say, uh, you know, people hooked up in tubes and all that stuff. And they say, I wouldn’t do that to my dog.
Every one of us has had that conversation. Right. I, I, that I know of. Um, but we’re just so afraid of dying. Um, and it actually starts to eat [00:42:00] away at your life. So this is a way, you know, to say, no, I’m going to face it. I’m going to know. One do it, like if I die, am I going to leave a whole bunch of mess for a bunch of people, I’m going to get stuff cleaned up.
So I’m not laying on my death bed or in a car at the bottom of a ravine going, God, I should have done this, you know, remove all of those. I should have done this things. You know, I should have told my sister, I loved her. Or, you know, those kind of like start living your life in a way that when you do eventually croak, which we’re all going to, I like that.
I like that word. Um, right. Very precise. But when we do, we want to leave it in a way that we can look, look back and go like, yeah. You know, I, I, I, I think I did pretty well all in all, you know, I, you know, I, uh, I tried to do, but you know, tried to leave it better than I found it. And yet I met, I messed up, but I [00:43:00] mostly made amends.
And, but on balance I did a pretty good job and I can feel, I didn’t. There aren’t things that I regret not saying or doing. Um, I didn’t just Bumble through unconsciously, just making messes and, and, uh, you know, destroying the planet and throwing a bunch of trash out for my neighbors to have to deal with.
And I didn’t rip people off those kinds of things, like, think about all of the, like the 12 step programs. Even I learned a lot from, from those during this time period as well. You know, how do you make amends? How do you keep your own side of your street clean? How do you give yourself grace? One of the greatest things I ever heard them use, wasn’t the one day at a time it was progress, not perfection.
And that is just such a beautiful thought. So it kind of is incorporated into all of this, taking all these things I’ve learned and try to coming up, try to come [00:44:00] up with a very simple outline. Um, that I know would help me in and I think might be helpful to others. Is
Paul: there any aspect of post death life in that?
Craig: You know, they’re, I would say, uh, mostly not, uh, because it’s unknown, it would be one of those things that we could sit and talk about forever, but you know, whether you think there’s heaven and someone else think that there’s Nirvana or, or rebirth, or like, we really don’t know. So let’s, let’s say we don’t know, but let’s live our life that maybe if there is something that will, you know, be able to go into that, whatever that next thing is, you know, more successfully like that that’s the Batten book of the dead is really this, uh, like two week prayer that, you know, your loved ones gathered around you 24 hours a day, you know, as you’re dying [00:45:00] and after you die, And it’s all about steering you away from the monsters and toward the good guys, you know, so you, you end up going where you, you, you know, where you’re better off, you know, they’re there to help you.
And, and that’s another thing that shows up and in multiple, especially the old religions or, or more of the native peoples religions, um, that there is that guidance. Um, so again, I would say that’s, that’s part of the agnostic part is we don’t really know, but we do know that if we lived a more conscious life, then we’re likely to have a more conscious death.
And if we have a more conscious death, we can look back and say, good job. You know, you did pretty well all in all.
Paul: And if I’m doing something good and you’re talking about how this theme shows up all over the place, and I could talk about places in the Bible, but even in the story of Les Miz, this, this idea of laying down your life, [00:46:00] No, it starts with the priests, you know, not only giving the silver, but then the candle sticks as well, that that has this ripple effect that changes all these people’s lives.
But so many characters in that story are okay to go to their death because they’ll sh they’re doing that out of selfless love for somebody else. And then there, you know, there’s the big line at the end of, you know, to love another person has to see the face of God. So I, I love that concept. And even if whatever happens in eternity and I, I think there’s something of our goodness, that’s going to go on into eternity somehow in some version.
But to say, when I’m living selflessly and walking consciously into serving, and even if that leads to death, I’m going to die. Knowing that I did everything I could to make the world a better place. And then it does become less scary.
Craig: Well, and, and, you know, If you have faced your mortality, then you’re not [00:47:00] so fearful that you, you know, you know, someone’s being hurt.
You’re you’re, you’re, you’re I feel much better about going over and going, Hey, leave that person alone. Get out outta here. I’m calling the, you know, taking that, that action that a fearful, you know, I’m going to hang onto my life. Even if that person’s getting beaten or raped or whatever, I’m going to look the other way.
Now you’re getting into a point where you you’re not. So, uh, you’re not white knuckle hanging onto it as much. Um, and that you’re more willing to go out and, and do good. Right? Right. Or you realize you need a career change and you’re just like, I can’t do it. You know, it’s, my mom wanted me to be this and society rewards me for being this certain way.
I can’t break away and live my own true life. Be my own true self. And you’re like, no, you’re, you’re really not holding onto something. What you’re doing is you’re being fearful. You’ve talked [00:48:00] about this in your coaching. Like let go of that stuff and, and be free and life just gets better. Right. And you know, that’s really part of the idea with this is, is having a culture within a culture because we can’t change our bigger culture, but we can create a culture of people that are supportive of those ideals and are willing to learn from each other and share with each other.
And you know,
Paul: so when somebody reads your book, What, what do you hope they do? And, and what are you going to sort of organize around what you hope people do after reading the book?
Craig: Well, I’m not sure how that’s going to work one, cause I don’t know what the response is going to be. So, you know, I try to imagine a variety of scenarios and, and I do hope that it, um, some people read it and go, yeah, this is, I’ve been looking for something like this.
Um, you know, the early adopter kind of [00:49:00] mentality or maybe the person even is, you know, frustrated with trying to do things on their own and haven’t been able to achieve the results that they want. So they’d like to be around a group of people that is like-minded. So a lot of it has to do with the idea of what a church could be.
Um, and that, that could be a place where, uh, you know, you could go, you could live for. A few weeks or a month or something like that, you could meditate. You could like really take stock of your life. Here’s where I am. Here’s where I want to be. What are the steps I need to take to improve various facets of my life and being a community of people that are all supporting each other toward those goals.
So, um, health is a big part of it. Um, conscious communication, um, meditation, um, just basic things that we know are healthy for us that we don’t always do. [00:50:00] Again, it’s something that we struggled to do individually. Um, but as a culture, we know that there always, whether it’s your phone or your TV or your job, or whatever, always pulling at you, you never quite get around to working on your consciousness.
This would be a group of people that prioritize conscious.
Paul: And your hope you’re hoping to build into a community and possibly even a place for community.
Craig: Yeah. Church basically is more like a community center where people can gather for meals. They always know they can get a healthy meal there. Um, they know that the food is going to be grown health in a healthy way.
That’s a place where you could, uh, learn job skills or education. Um, you can exercise, you can learn how to do like Quito or yoga or something to, you know, gymnastics, whatever it is. And, and it becomes something that [00:51:00] is constantly there to allow you to be in a group of people who are, are supporting your efforts to, to grow.
Um, and, and you know, to me, that’s the church’s epicenter of that. It’s not Sunday and Wednesday night. Seven days a week, all the time you might run by and have breakfast and grab a box lunch to take, to work with you, and then come back later with your family and then you all might sit. And one of you read an interesting book and does a presentation about some psychological research or someone else might talk about something they’ve learned about how to do breathing exercises or any number of things.
Someone might want to become a computer programmer or a writer or massage therapist or whatever, and they can learn about those things. So, you know, uh, much of our society is very individualistic and it’s on you to succeed or fail. And this doesn’t [00:52:00] remove that still, ultimately it’s up to you to do these things, but within a society, within a subculture of people who are there to be supportive of each other,
Paul: It gets a little bit easier.
So I have your web address. What, what do you, where can people get the book and, uh, and is this where they find out more?
Craig: Yeah, they can get the book here. Um, you know, I did it as self published. Um, it’s only, I think it’s 96 pages. I tried, I spent more time editing it than I did. Right. I mean, this has been a project I’ve been working on for 30 years, 20 years, uh, 25 years maybe.
Um, and I really tried to make it as simple and straightforward and clear as I can. I repeat myself several times because I want to keep it focused on the goals. Um, but they can go to this website, uh, get the book. Um, if I have events, I’ll be posting them there. [00:53:00] Um, uh, we’ll post this podcast on that website.
Um, and anything, you know, we’ll, we’ll eventually have profiles and, and things like that. We’ll have group chats and things like that will be happening as we get more into it. But part of, part of this is I’m not going to be able to do all of it. You know, I have some skills and I have some things I’m really bad at, and I’m hoping that we can attract some people with different skills and backgrounds that can, um, help us flesh flesh out into a way that helpful to a lot of people.
Paul: All right. See ya. Well, we’re talking like video. This may be some people may be listening. And so C L C D conscious life conscious death CLC D community.org.
Craig: Yep. That’s it. You can get me@craigatclcdcommunity.org. Um, so I’m not getting these at my work email. I’m getting them at my, [00:54:00] my, uh, my new religion.
Paul: All right. It’s a new religion, conscious life. Conscious death is the book by our own Craig chart. And then, so congrats, Craig, this is exciting. You’ve hit your 60th birthday. You publish a book now. And so those are, those are big life coagulation moments. And so congratulations on coagulating. Yeah,
Craig: so, and, and so, uh, so what was your reaction when you saw the title?
Like, cause I didn’t give you any forewarning. What was your reaction when you read that?
Paul: Good. Good question. Um, yes. Conscious life conscious death. Your, your first thought is, well, you’re not going to sell many of these because no, one’s going to be like, oh, I said, if I’ve got this book about how to die consciously.
Um, and so it’s definitely a title that, that, uh, I may have even said, like, you might reconsider the title. Um,[00:55:00]
but as I, as I read it and, and just, you know, the concept of like, oh, here’s a new religion, great. Uh, you know, we’ve got a new Joseph Smith, uh, bringing a new prophetic word to the world. Um, but then as you start to read it, you start to see how, um, the, the mysticism of religions. Is taken out and it’s more about life, purpose and passage and how to walk out life.
Well, and just being on the journey of, of faith and religious consciousness that I’m on, it was like, yeah, this is exactly what I’m trying to learn to do. Because one of the things that I found, you know, I think probably is Carl, was it Carl Marx or John Lennon? One of those, uh, not John Lennon, uh, Lennon from Leningrad, um, who said religion is the opiate of the masses.
And, you know, Christians hate that saying, but one thing I recognize about [00:56:00] my Christianity is it did cause me to live in, in a similar sense of denial that this idea of, well, God’s just gonna make everything work out. And if you just prayed, it will be okay. And, and my moment of life coming kind of crashing in on me.
We’re starting to recognize. Now there are actually really painful things that have hurt me in life that I need to be present to and, and conscious to and about. And so this has been the journey of my life as is physical wellbeing, mental wellbeing, and spiritual wellbeing, trying to figure out how to do all of those well and have wellbeing and all of those areas and thus the coaching and everything.
And I, I thought you were presenting a way that people could do this, that it, that they could not just read books and say good idea, and then never do them again and be proud. They have the book on the shelf as all of us do. That’d be able to say, Hey, this may be a practical way. I can, I can walk this out in community and get it done.
So I find it very, very fascinating [00:57:00] and very much in line with where I am in life in the world right now.
Craig: Well, thanks. Thanks for that. Paul taking the time to read it and discuss it with me afterwards, you and a few of our, our fellow. Tavern theology folks and a few others, I think maybe five or six people have read it.
So
Paul: yeah, proud too. When somebody shows you their manuscript, I know this is you’re literally, it’s your baby. It’s something you’ve created that you’re like, like me and you don’t just show it to anybody. You, you have to have a great trust in who you’re showing a manuscript to. So, so I was honored by that, but I think you’ve got something and I hope people will read it and consider, this is a, a way to live that isn’t in conflict with, with anybody’s religion.
Other than if your religion causes you to be unhealthy or divisive or hateful towards others, but, uh, can, can really [00:58:00] walk in parallel with people’s religious beliefs, uh, toward a healthier way to walk.
Craig: Well, that’s, that’s great. Cause that, that was the goal that it didn’t feel that way. So beautiful that came through and it is a pretty simple read, I think it’s, I think you can crack it out and two or three hours at the most.
Paul: Yeah, I think it went pretty quickly. All right. Anything else we need to know about conscious life conscious death, Craig?
Craig: Um, I would say that the last piece that we didn’t touch on was really that, um, part of my, uh, interest in, um, communities and the health of communities, I think that’s something that’s kind of differentiated.
Um, like the people that are doing psychological work or philosophical work or religious work, um, we’ve interviewed some people. I think that, you know, Joe, uh, Joe White, for example. So a lot of the work for [00:59:00] me would be that this would be a religion. Doesn’t run to where the rich people are, but really locates itself and neighborhoods and communities that have been kind of passed by.
And that, uh, that an active part of this would be to help people in those communities and to actually physically make those communities better places. Um, so that’s something that I haven’t seen, um, really as a part of a lot of other of these, uh, consciousness efforts. And I think just with my background, that’s kind of a unique spin on it that I think, uh, really, it, it, it, it plays together really well with the other ideas.
So, um, I know that there are some very popular, kind of new agey churches up in the bay area in LA that I’ve seen. And, uh, that’s good. And the people are very happy that go there and that’s all great. But, um, I do really think we have to get in. [01:00:00] Places that maybe not everyone is comfortable going. Um, and that’s, that’s part of, of, of the path forward that I would imagine.
I mean, ultimately if you’re going to make a difference, you’re going to do it in the places that need it the most. That’s good. Like Fresno, California.
Paul: Yeah. Shit needs it a lot. And that is sort of our household deal that, uh, th the Christian Bible says, pray for the welfare of your city for, in its welfare, you will find your welfare or you’ll find your wellbeing or your Shalom.
And so I’m with you. I think making sure that that idea of the least of these is if there is a suffering part of my community, I’m not as well off and not as much into wellbeing as I could be. Just moving away from the problems. Doesn’t fix the.
Craig: Yep. Well, and that’s, it’s an easy trap of use. As you have seen to move where the rich people are.
Cause then you can [01:01:00] build a bigger building and pay better salaries and you know, all the other stuff. Um, yeah. Uh, so I want to be a place where really, um, everyone is getting served from the wealthy to the homeless and everyone in between.
Paul: All right. CLC D community.org. That’s the place Craig shorten is the author conscious life.
Conscious death is the
Craig: book. Hey, one more quick thing. Yeah. Hey, uh, Alycia
Johnston.
Paul: Oh, that’s right. Let’s see. Nah, there she is. Ah, well done, Craig. I
forgot. Yeah. Now we wanted to introduce Alycia. She’s our new producer.
Alycia: Hello All
Paul: She’s one of the things that kept us from doing the podcast for awhile was. The editing and uploading and the show notes and all those things that Paula and I just did for a while and gotten to the point where we just couldn’t bring ourselves to do it [01:02:00] anymore. So we reached out to our good friend, professor, Betsy Hayes at Fresno state, and she, she sent a superstar away there.
Alycia: Hopefully it all works out well.
You didn’t know you were a superstar, Alycia?
Alycia: No, I thought I was a normal one
Craig: . Now you’re, you’re the one allowing us to do this and keep it moving forward. So we’re very grateful that you’re part of the team.
Alycia: Well, I’m glad to be here looking forward to many, many
shows with you guys.
Paul: Absolutely. And so Craig, our plan is to do one of these a month now.
Yeah, I think one or two, depending we maybe we’ll record a couple back to back when, when we have a few guests and um, Alycia can help us make sure that we stay on track. Stay
on and hit record. Yeah.
So we’ll do that from now on. Well, awesome. It’s good to be back, Craig. Good to be back chatting with you. YouTube hall.
Craig: It feels
Paul: [01:03:00] great. And happy birthday. Once again. 60 has no time.
Craig: Yeah. It’s a milestone that that’s one of those you can’t really deny. I remember being a kid and my grandparents were like 60 and I was like, oh my God, their age, they could just drop it any second.
But uh, you know, uh, it doesn’t feel that way at all. In fact, I’ll celebrate my birthday by going for a hike.
Paul: And, and we celebrated with a sing along with puff the magic dragon, which was your, your song you sang with Cole right on the way.
Craig: Yeah, well, yeah. I used to sing it to my dog named Patrick. And part of my mission in life is to tell people it is not a drug song as was portrayed and meet the Fockers.
It is a song about how children lose their imagination as they get older. And, uh, and it’s a really beautiful song. And just like so many of these things that lasts [01:04:00] forever, there’s a really great message in there. And that’s why these things last. Um, so it was interesting to watch people because, you know, it’s just like, oh, it’s just a kid song and they were reading it and people were crying.
Like when you realize the depth of, of the message of that song. Um, and that’s really all around us. There’s so many great, great things like that. I can’t give it a single, let it be. And, or, you know, all you need is love and just saying, you know, just going along and then you stop and think about the words and it’s really.
You know, the message is right there for us. If we choose to
Paul: accept. So puff the magic dragon is not about smoking marijuana.
Craig: That’s just what I saw that in that movie, I’m like, oh my God, this is such a setback for the meaning of this song, but that Robert DeNiro, I love Robert DeNiro, but his character in that movie, [01:05:00] uh, did not do us any favors regarding that song. And it
Paul: is a tragically sad song at the end.
Craig: It is, but it’s, it happens to all of us, right?
You have that childhood, you know, fantasy, you know, imagination and, uh, you know, where you could play with your little toys for hours, you know, you had all these stories going and then, you know, one day you’re thinking about punching the time card at work. You know, whether you like the boss or not, and how you’re going to hit your goals and all that stuff gets pushed to the back.
And that’s what I like about that song is it’s saying, you know, maybe we can, you can consciously hold onto those things, like the artist and the, or the songwriter and stay in that world of imagination.
Paul: Very cool. All right. Good stuff. Happy birthday, Craig. And we’re glad to be back on two guys talking Fresno.
Well we’ll see everybody again in a couple of weeks or a month, whatever
Craig: it takes. All right. And [01:06:00] um, this will be, if you’re watching this, it means that the book has actually been published, so it’ll be available.
Paul: All right. See, I’ll see D community.org and two guys, fresno.com to get the podcast. All right.
For Alycia, Craig and Paul. We’ll see everybody next time on two guys talking Fresno.
Craig: Thank you both.

https://twoguysfresno.blubrry.net/2020/12/16/562/ Dec 16, 2020

Paul & Craig talk shelter-in-place eyecare with Thomas Casagrande of 20/20 Eyecare of Fresno.

Transcript: Transcribed by AI (not 100% accurate)

[00:00:00] Paul Swearengin: all right, Craig. You ready to go?

Craig Scharton: I am ready.

Paul Swearengin: All right, let’s do it. Okay. Welcome to the show, everyone. Hi, everybody on Facebook, we love your comments. Let us know you’re watching out there. It’s time for a two guys talking Fresno podcast.

Craig, we’ve gotten a little irregular with these, but it’s good to be back together

Craig Scharton: again. We have, I know we both had things taking over our lives and And

Paul Swearengin: like our jobs and our income and

Craig Scharton: yeah, those little things, it is a catches catch can, which we said at the beginning, but we were more, we were pretty regular before and I think.

Maybe after the new year, we can get back to our a once a week. What do you think?

Paul Swearengin: I think 20, 20, 21, 2020 has been odd for everybody. And so when we get to 21, I think maybe it’ll get back on course here a little bit. We hope, but

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: maybe it’s just a number to

Paul Swearengin: be, could be, but I was going to say, speaking of [00:01:00] 2020.

That was going to be the perfect transition. We have Dr. Thomas Casagrande from 2020. I care. Is that right? Did I get them

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: well? It’s the tuna is 2020 optometric of Fresno, and I picked that name in 1986 and I never thought that someday it would. I thought I can’t wait for 2020. It’s going to be cool. I don’t 2020 in 2020.

and then boom, March.

Paul Swearengin: you haven’t changed the name. That’s good.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah. Yeah. we’ll keep the name because 2020 means, as you all know, if you have 20, 20 vision that’s normal vision. So that was the idea there behind them.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. So we’re glad to have Dr. , we’ve all been doing a lot of screen time, Craig, and I see that you have glasses that are built to help you with that.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. and, Dr. Casa grandad doesn’t know it, but, when you, and he [00:02:00] talked about having him on. Paul said, it’d be really good because of all the screen time and how it’s messing up people’s eyes. So when I went to my, Kaiser appointment, I said, Hey, I hear that the screen is messing up people’s eyes.

And they said, yes. So we’ll give you a glass of this specifically with, at the distance of your computer. So even though I went through Kaiser, cause that is my insurance company talk, Dr. Costa grandad still steered me in the right direction. So I don’t know that I ha I didn’t help you financially that way, but in karma, You just got even better car, but

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: that’s right.

as long as you can, as long as it’s done properly, we’re happy.

Paul Swearengin: So is that true? People doing a lot more zoom meetings working remotely? Is it having impact on eyesight?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: what’s happening is when the, I think if you think of what we were doing a hundred years ago, 200 years ago, [00:03:00] a thousand years ago, we, weren’t looking at something so close for eight hours a day, which is going on right now.

And then people there eight hours a day, and then they come home and they’re on a furnace four or five hours. And I wasn’t made for that because when it looks at that, something that close it’s, there’s a lot more muscle action in the eye causes a lot of eye strain. That’s where you get the burning eyes.

you’ll get a little brow headaches. Some people they’ll even go, I’m playing a little headaches right here, right above, right inside their eyes. If you get that, these are all symptoms of minor eye, conditions that are easy to correct with the right pair of glasses, but it’s done.

And then you could be clear and comfortable on your computer. So yeah, we’re seeing the kids, especially because they’re all zoomin. we’re, I’m seeing. Oh, easily, double or triple the amount of problems since, since, since they all started [00:04:00] going, I call it zoom. And since they all started zooming, so it’s, it is definitely a, an issue that we deal with daily.

Paul Swearengin: So Craig styling, new glasses there have a purple tent on them. Is that

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: what it is? What we’ve learned over the last years or something. there’s high energy wavelengths that come off the computer it’s called, they call it blue light. And actually it’s little light with a little bit of ultraviolet light.

Somebody figured out that certain wavelength causes the small gland and your there’s a small gland called the pineal gland. That’s in the brain, little smaller than the pituitary gland that produces melatonin, that allows you to sleep well. The blue light. So to speak off of the computer, it stops that from being produced now you can’t sleep.

I have had patients, there are, especially when you go to one or two screens, then [00:05:00] three screens, that’s more blue light. So if you have the filters that a really good one, I know Amazon sells Swan and a few other ones, you want a really good, Quality one, that’s going to block some of the glare off and really get rid of that blue light.

And what happens is now your prenatal gland works better, produce melatonin and you sleep better. I’ve had patients before they, we put the filter on, they were on to a second pills a night and they got their glasses. They were all seated pills. The next day. Which is this crazy, amazing stories, but, there that, that really does happen.

Paul Swearengin: You noticed the difference, Craig.

Craig Scharton: Yeah, it’s and melatonin, connects to our circadian rhythm. like when it gets dark and the melatonin starts, it prepares you for sleep a couple hours earlier. And so it’s really important. that’s a lot of people take melatonin, but [00:06:00] you shouldn’t take it right at bedtime.

When you want to go to sleep, you take it a couple hours before. And it’s exactly what the doctor is saying. I’ve been sleeping like a baby since I started using these, it’s really

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: pretty interesting technology.

Craig Scharton: I’d never had that. I didn’t think about it from this, but I was getting at an eye headache.

Even while I slept and I’ve never had that in my 59 years. And it’s going away now that I’m wearing these, grown-up

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: glasses.

Craig Scharton: I’ve never had, I’ve never had real glasses in my life to last week.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: What I was going to add too. Not only does it deal with the mental toll on him, but. The high energy wavelengths that gets all absorbed in the front of the eye, which is the cornea, mostly the cornea that’s where you get the burning eyes and the eyes can aid.

So the type of filter that you have, it blocks that. So now it’s [00:07:00] not that high as you will a wavelengths not affecting the cornea. So it’s definitely makes a difference there too.

Paul Swearengin: what do you recommend do we step away from our computers periodically through the day? Does that,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: there’s a couple, there’s a couple of things.

You got to do. One try and I’m gonna, I’m going to try and do this. Let’s see where my hand is there. What’s your hand out to where your computer is and where your fingertips are and that’s a good rule where you should put your computer. You don’t want to put your, you want to have your computer about 26 to maybe 30 inches away, 26 to 30 inches away.

You don’t want to be. You don’t want to be the closer people think. I want to get closer things look bigger, but when it’s closer, you’re making the, I have to over-focus and you and computers make our eyes or focus too much anyway. So you’d never one. You don’t want to be too close to try and get a good distance.

Number two, if you’re [00:08:00] wearing. Those of you who are older wearing progressive lenses. Remember your progressive lenses that the bottom half of the lens is where you want to see for the computer. So that means you want your computer down and I’m going to show you here. I want it down like this. I don’t want it at eye level.

I want it down about four inches below eye level. That’s very important. You can’t believe the amount of people that don’t do that because we’re, if you’re looking at eye level, you’re looking through the distance portion of your progressive lenses. So very important that you lower that computer about four inches below the Midland w where your, your eyes are looking.

So those are very important points. I’m gonna

Paul Swearengin: have to work on

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: that very important points. Yeah. And if you, now that some of you can’t move your screens down, that’s when you go see your eye doctor and say, Hey, I’m having trouble because of my neck’s getting SARCs, I’m doing this. and he’ll make you a pair of [00:09:00] computer glasses with your exact prescription set at 28 inches, 30 inches, 26 inches.

And now you wear those for those of you who are on computers for eight hours a day. That’s not a bad idea because you got to think about it for eight hours a day. You’re in the wrong prescription. If you’re looking through the distance portion of your glasses, if you’re over 42

Craig Scharton: and that’s what minor for that there.

I just leave them on my desk. They don’t go in the car. They don’t do anything else. So

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: they’re just for the computer. And when you think about it, Like I’ve got patients, they’re there, they’re on the computer and then they go home and they play games on their computer. They’re on there 12 hours a day, and they’re using the distance.

They’re using a pair of distance glasses. They need a pair of glasses for those 12 hours set at that distance.

Paul Swearengin: I was just at your office yesterday. I may have to change my order real quick.

[00:10:00] Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah, those are progressors. Yeah. You need to look down a little bit. Yeah.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. I’m going to have to work on that. So remind me of what, so the distance is in the middle, on the progressive

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: no, that’s distances in the, from the, if you look here, I’m going to show you right here.

So the top half of the lands on my glasses here. The top half that’s set for infinity for driving. Okay. so the bottom half. Okay. About two thirds of the way down, maybe for this, the way they were, my finger is that’s the sweet spot for the computer. So in order for you to see that you have to put the computer down so you can look at that spot without moving.

So your head doesn’t have to move up like that. Gotcha. So

Paul Swearengin: very important. And that’s, if I have the 26 inches,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: yes, it’s very important. You don’t want to have your computer any closer than that.

Paul Swearengin: Okay. All right.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Now the other thing too lot of people say, I don’t wear glasses for distance and I’m fine, but when I’m on the computer, I’m getting all this, [00:11:00] I’m getting some eyes eyestrain and I’m only 35.

you may have a very light prescription. That’s not a big deal for distance becomes a big deal when you’re on the computer, because. If the eyes aren’t working exactly well together. it’s, you’re on it for 10 minutes. You’re not going to notice for the Shriner for four or five hours. You’re going to notice it.

That’s when you get the eyes straight and that’s when you gotta come see your eye doctor, get an eye exam so he can balance the vision out in both eyes. Cause you got a memory of eyes. Don’t work independently. They work together. So if one prescriptions off just a little bit, it will cause some eye strain.

And you have to correct that. So very easy to do with a thorough eye exam. You want to make sure you get a thorough exam with somebody that with an eye doctor is going to listen to everything about where your computer set up, how far away it is, how many computers are on, they’ve got there’s a number of questions that [00:12:00] you should getting a thorough exam that, that needs to be gone over.

Paul Swearengin: J Craig, before you ask your question, let me jump in and say, we do have some folks on Facebook with us and Jeffrey’s watching and Jeffrey are two Jeffries. Becky David wan. Anybody wants to ask a question of Dr. on Facebook, commented in there, but we have Dr. Thomas Casagrande with us from 2020 optometric office over on Blackstone and Shaw, or there’s that the only officer do you have more than one?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: it’s funny, you said that because when I was a young. 30 year old. I thought I’m going to have 2020 out to medical, Fresno, and then a Visalia and Clovis. But what I found was you can’t split your, you need, people want to see you, so you can’t be in three places at once. So I decided let’s just have one nice place.

We’ll make it the best that I could make it. Have the best selection of eyewear, have a lab that we can do our own quality control, have the best lenses, give the best service so on place. And I’ve done that for 34 years right [00:13:00] here. it’s on we’re one block North of Shaw on Blackstone on East Blackstone.

We’re more, it must be a number of the more, furniture storage right in that center right there across the cuttings golden horse. And I’ve been here 34 years and God willing, we’ll be here another 20. So

Craig Scharton: I’ve been in there cause you’re, not just an eye doctor. You’re also an inventor.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: That’s right.

We’ve got the, I’ve got a patent now, on a piece of equipment that’s going to make like the progressive lenses that Paul’s where it makes them more accurate. and so we’re very excited about that. very interesting. when you develop something from scratch, I’ll, it’s a, it’s an interesting journey, getting it and getting it, The prototypes had gone through seven or eight prototypes testing.

And we finally happy with what we have or excited about. I’m excited about getting that to market because it [00:14:00] turns out in our industry anywhere from 10 to 30% of progressive people that are wearing progressive lenses, their measurements are off. So this type, this machine will make them more accurate.

now the. The practitioner, whether it’s an optician or an optical dispenser to get the measurements correct. And Mo some of you out there weren’t progresses that, you’ll have one pair. I like these glasses. I don’t like these other ones. That’s good. It’s probably because the measurements are off and it’s very common, especially in, eye care practices where you have new people that you’re getting to train.

If we work in half millimeter steps, you can be off a half a millimeter. It makes a difference. this new invention wrong, make it’ll make the glasses more accurate, makes for a better pair of glasses for her patients. And it’ll be easy to make it easy for the, it’ll make it easy for the optician to get the measurements.

That’s pretty cool. That’s

Craig Scharton: real cool, because 10 to [00:15:00] 30% waste means that

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: price it’s millions of dollars. Yeah. When you look at it and in our industry, it’s the biggest, one of the biggest problems is making sure your measurements are correct.

Craig Scharton: And then there are a lot of people that are not as comfortable and happy as they would be if they worked right.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: there’s a lot of you out there that have tried Progressive’s and you go, Oh, it didn’t work for me. it may be that the measurements were off. Cause that’s the national average, it’s not 30% redo in every office, but a lot offices. It is it’s, common to be 10 and 15% off.

so we, we think we can knock that under 4%, or 5%. That’s what we, that’s what we’re finding with the w we’re using, some prototypes in our office right now. We have been for a year and it w we’ve seen it work. So what we want the automatic version of the unit, because nobody wants to work on [00:16:00] something that’s they have to like the analog it’s they want the automatic version.

We’re working on that right now.

Craig Scharton: I just think it’s really cool. Smart, creative people, never their brains never stop. Always trying to find a new, better

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: way. I have to thank Mr. Diaz, my little dog, because I walk him every morning and I was walking up one morning. I was mad about some, a patient had progressive lenses that were off the measurements and my Mr.

Gibbs stopped at a Bush and I’m waiting for him because he’s doing this thing on the Bush and. th the revelation came to me. Oh my God. that’s a good idea. And then I went home and I jotted it down and brought it to the office. And Matt that works in the back of my it guy goes, I got an idea for something, and he looked at it.

He goes, Whoa, that’s a good idea. So then boom, that was on January 24th, 2017. So it’s taken three years. Excuse me. So it’s been almost three

[00:17:00] years,

Paul Swearengin: mother necessity. That’s how we get our inventions. It’s

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: amazing how it just it’s been. It’s been fun though. Cause it’s, and I’ve showed it to people in the industry and they’re like, wow, why didn’t I think of that?

Paul Swearengin: So I have, somebody clay on Facebook is asking prebiotics slash probiotics and vision. Any relationship.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Prebiotics. Yeah. So

Craig Scharton: is it any of that stuff? So with gut health, they’re doing research now,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: how

Craig Scharton: gut health helps everything helps or hurts everything in our body.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah. The only thing I’ll say about that is what we’ve learned is you want to take the, you got to get, there’s a lot of micronutrients that you need for the retina and the optic nerve, and you want to make sure you’re getting.

Good absorption. A lot of pills out there. You’re not, you’re getting like 20% absorption, especially the ones that are a solid pill. And I forgot that’s not working. Yeah. So [00:18:00] you want to take the vitamins that have the powder in them or a liquid. they get absorbed better. And that’s what that gets to the cellular level.

Otherwise you’re just, you’re not getting all the nutrients. Now that’s a good question. Does the knee, does that, have you seen a difference? Have I seen a difference in my office? Absolutely. Especially, but only with the people that have that diets, you’re eating and we’re not going to go or that everybody knows you gotta eat fresh vegetables, eat your berries, walnuts, almonds, get, eat your vegetables and have lots of color.

But not everybody does that. And then they don’t get the right nutrients, your carrots, your beta carotenes, I see it all the time. People come in, I’m not seeing very well at night. Then I’ll put them on carrot shoes and tell them, start eating raspberries, blueberries that come back like a mustard, a wow.

I am seeing so much better just cause they were nutrient, they were deficient in [00:19:00] certain nutrients, but you gotta be careful because people will say, I’ve taken. Vitamin B12. And I’m taking this. you want to take a, well-rounded vitamin a with everything and Sears there’s ones out there that have certain herbs that are good for us too.

Like the Gingko and, all there’s a few other ones. There’s a lot of the ones that I could talk about zeal, xanthan, is not, herbs, but, the lutein. people talk about, you’ll hear a lot of talk about, Oh, I’m going to take lutein by itself. If you eat one spinach salad a week, you’re getting 64 times the amount of leaching that you’d get in a pill.

so it’s, you’re you want to get it in your diet, the best that you can, and then you’re doing all that you can, but those of you that don’t, that just don’t eat very well. Go get your vitamins, get them, get the right vitamins and better absorption.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. And clay works with a really cool company, helping farmers with a [00:20:00] product that is going to help the plants pull more nutrition out of the soil.

So then you have healthier plants. So if you’re eating healthier plants, you’re going to become healthier too. It’s really a very amazing company. So they do. Products for health as well as for our ag industry. So it’s all going back to that same thing. If you’re not feeding your plant, the right minerals and vitamins, and you’re eating that finish, that’s not healthy.

You’re

Paul Swearengin: not going to

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: go, we used to call that crop rotation. Yeah. Proper rotation. Yep. You get the nitrogen in the soil. The farmers all know about crop rotation. Yeah.

Craig Scharton: he’s a cool guy. He was with our Fresno EDC for a number of years. And. Found this company and he’s taking it all over it’s gang gangbusters.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: That’s great.

Paul Swearengin: Let’s do our, no, your guest segment, we like to learn a little bit about you. When we have guests on doc, as we’ll call you, they call you at the golf course. So [00:21:00] tell us where you grew up. Where did you go to high school? All that usual stuff.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: I’m I’m native California, born and raised in Taft, California.

The oil town West of Bakersfield. So I’m a current County boy, worked in the oil fields out of high school college. So I could get my, get myself through school, working on the rigs and other things in the oil fields. And then we went to Fresno state, 1976, loved Fresno when I moved here, after graduating from chaff college.

And I got a degree in zoology from Fresno state and then, met a lot of great people in Fresno. worked downtown back then, as a bartender going through school just, and the friends I met in Fresno are still my best friends today. and then I went onto, optometry school in Southern California college of optometry in Fullerton, stay down there for five years and then decided.

I want to move back to Fresno. Cause I love to [00:22:00] fly fish. I love to backpack. So Fresno was a good place. I love the people of Fresno Clovis it’s that was a no-brainer to come back. my twin brother, is Tim. He worked for the County health department. He was, he was in charge of the environmental health department for 32 years.

He, he was already always up there, so it was easy to come back, be with my brother. So that was, the, so in that, so I’ve been outside. I started 2020 author metrics, in 1986. And, then here ever since, and, I love my Bulldogs. Love my Dodgers. I even love the giants, when they’re, with, with chick Chancy, I love, I love all kinds of sports and, a lot of my, Clovis, East Timberwolves.

So that’s where my kids went to school. I have three children. my wife, April, of course, we’ve been married for, it’s going to [00:23:00] be, 30 years in 2021. And then I have, two, two children that are teachers one’s in Parlier teaches the Parlier high school. The other one teaches, Fancher Creek. Madison teaches math and Aleisha teaches in Parlier.

And then I’ve got a son that’s down San Diego and he’s working down there. So I got, and I got two grandchildren that I love to death too. One, one, one to two, son-in-laws one, two to be in one, and then they’ve all hit the ball farther than me in golf. And they’re great.

Paul Swearengin: It scared me for a second, third, cause you said two grandchildren that you love to death and two sons in law one.

And then I thought you could say one who,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Madison they’re trying to get married with COVID. They were supposed to get married in July and then it got moved to November now. No it’s next July in case get a move [00:24:00] because of COVID, which is happening to a lot of people that are getting married.

Paul Swearengin: Why’d you major in zoology? what was your goal?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: I figured I was either going to be an optometrist or I was going to teach biology and I did teach for a little bit before I got enough time with your school. And But that was the emphasis. Sarah was, I got worked towards a teaching credential and, but I loved zoology.

We used to, it’s, was a great major for Fresno because we’d go up. you could go to the, you could go to the mountains and trap animals. we went to the coast and worked on the, at the tide pools and you work, we went to the desert. California was that’s. That was a great major for California.

I always felt sorry, the people in Kansas, they just go to the, where do they go? They go to the wheat fields. Not much no, it was, and, stuff as well. You study animals, which is humans are animals. And of course I TA, chemistry when I [00:25:00] was at, in, at, in junior college and ITA human anatomy with the cadavers when I was in Wednesday night, optometry school.

the zoology degree, w I took a lot of anatomy, physiology, and psychology, and a lot of classes that you believe it or not. You use it in this, in my, what I do. I, it helps you to understand what’s going on with your patients. Yeah.

Craig Scharton: my zoology, professor at Fresno city, Dr.

or, McHenry, he was brutal because he said some of you are going to end up being doctors, and you’re going to know what you need to know, and you’re going to be proud that you came through my class. It’s every one of us and like zoology 10. Had to add, to be learning just everything just in case we were a doctor someday.

So it was pretty intense. Did you take any classes from Dick Haas at

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Fresno? Yeah. I had that from, I had one class with Dr. Haas. Yeah. I went to the [00:26:00] desert with him on a field trip and that was pretty cool. It was Dr. Mohs doctor. I had Dr. WoodWick, which renowned, histology teacher. And, Dr. Oh, Stein there was, I had some great teachers that president doctor, Dr.

Woodward was there. it was, I was very fortunate. They were all older teachers, but they had seen, and

Craig Scharton: then all over the world.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah, they had, they were, they had such a wealth of experience. They brought to the classroom that. That was just, incredible.

Paul Swearengin: I remember Dr. Haas saying some people remove the H in the, a, at the front of my name and add an S onto the end of

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: that.

H a S right? Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Haas. Yeah, he, I always thought about, the little eggs, Pause. Pause. Pause.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. Oh,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah.

Paul Swearengin: 30 what’d you say 34 years. Is that right? From 86. So what has [00:27:00] changed in optometric since you started your business?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: so much, it’s not even funny. I was talking to a patient yesterday, when you have a melanoma in the eye, when I graduated, you just took the eye out.

And then the patient ended up dying because of metastasized to the rest of the body. Now you put a little radiation pellet back there. If you see a melanoma, what’s, you’re pretty rare, but then, the patient doesn’t die because the eye that the cancer doesn’t metastasize. that’s one issue.

what else has changed a lot’s changed, but a lot stayed the same because physics is physics. No, you’re still bending light to correct people’s vision. Whether it’s with the contact lenses have, have gotten more breathable, more comfortable, the ones that we were using early on, they didn’t raise very well.

I’ve caused a lot of infections. And then, I was w I was one of the first doctors to. To actually, do LASIK. I [00:28:00] co-managed LASIK in 1996, 95, when I was sending them to Canada, just CA it was approved in Canada. I about a year before it was approved here. So the ones that say, Oh, I want to go, okay, let’s go to Toronto.

So we fly to Toronto. So I was on the early ones of, of lace of doing laser surgery. But I got to be on the early, see all the early laser, how lasers can improve and save vision with diabetics and with, other conditions that we can treat lasers with, not just, not just LASIK, but then, there was R K early on in the eighties where you did the cutting, I wasn’t, I got to see that.

and then as we moved into the nineties, the technology on how we look at the eye has gotten so much better when we can take, we can do we have machineries now machinery in the office now where we can take a 3d picture of your eye. we can look at the, [00:29:00] at your retina, the 10 layers of the retina and find out where there’s a problem we can look for glaucoma, get, we can figure out whether you have a coma a lot earlier now.

because of the new technology that we have that we didn’t have even 10 years ago, some of you have had an Optum map done where it takes a huge, very, a 200 degree picture of your whole retina. That’s very interesting because it picks up, conditions in the eye that sometime years ago would get missed, like certain retinal tears and, Retinal holes or even cancer on the, I would get missed you.

Don’t miss it. Let the optimum out of it’s very easy to see.

Craig Scharton: one of the things that I just found out was a huge improvement is, the law. When I went in a couple of weeks ago, they don’t do that thing where they blow your eye on you.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah, we have. Now we have a little unit. [00:30:00] That it’s magnetic. So those of you who are like, there’s a lot of you out there that won’t come for an ice edge, you don’t want the airport.

I know. Yeah, because it’s the air puff. it’s like traumatizing. So for a lot of people, we, this office side, my office, we don’t use it. We haven’t used it for about five years, probably half the offices in town, still, probably more than half still use the aircraft, but you don’t have to there’s other technology now.

Craig Scharton: I was very happy. I was very happy about that. I never understood why I didn’t like it, cause it didn’t really hurt, but I really hated it.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: I told a patient that I saw yesterday. I go, you, she goes, I w I haven’t been here in cheers. I remember that airflow. I said, Don’t you hear my great personality first and then the air puffs.

Second. What does no, I remember the first, then you’re a good personality. Second. I said, okay. I take a second seat. So the air, but it’s funny because most people are, remember, [00:31:00] they look around for it and they go, where is that thing? I don’t know. When are you going to do that? I always tell them we’re not doing that today.

Paul Swearengin: Now we just get that really bright flash in our eye.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: It’s a map. That’s the optimum. The other thing that’s changed is, the lenses of Don thinner, the frames of dot and the wider, a better technology with a better selection of frames. then it was, when I graduated. And then also the progressive lenses have gotten now there are called digital wishes, but really that doesn’t mean anything to patients can say they’re digital or WhatsApp.

Me really, the distortions are less in the Progressive’s. There they’re much easier to adjust to than they were even three years ago, four years ago. So that’s been really neat for patients because. a lot of times we’ll take them three months to adjust to a progressive lens. Now it takes, just take just a couple of days

Paul Swearengin: and you got rid of the lines on the bifocals to [00:32:00] remember my grandmother’s.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: yeah. that’s what that does.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. So I have to, so I mentioned before we started that, I finally got my first pair of grownup glasses and I got them, I think last week and I’ve already scratched them. w what do I do

I

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: take now,

Craig Scharton: or,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: you want to, if, you want to go back and make sure that, you want to make sure there’s a good scratch coat.

Whenever you get an anti reflective coating that you want to make sure there’s a good scratch. Go put on it. Otherwise the coding will scratch off and. We need to know about those glasses, whether it had a good scratch.

Craig Scharton: Okay. So I’ll go back and check. I can’t just take it out with my buffer and,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: you can’t both off people asking the outside.

Can you buff off the scratches? Oh, I can do it, but then I’m going to put a wave in the lamps. And then you got a real fine grit

Craig Scharton: sandpaper in the shed.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah. Yeah. That won’t work either. I remember whenever you both [00:33:00] everything on a lens, you’re changing the prescription.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. I’ll take him back in

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: hundreds of a millimeter.

So

Paul Swearengin: here’s a V Oh, go ahead, Craig.

Craig Scharton: When you think about sunglasses, I’m horrible at wearing sunglasses.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: it’s a good question. If you were a D if you’re outdoors and you were, and you liked wear hats, that’s good. You want to keep that helps believe it or not keep a lot of the ultra bright light out of your eyes.

is you’re outdoors a lot though, and you’re getting a lot of sun from, work, then a good quality sunglass of it. It has a UV 400 filter is always better because it’s going to ultraviolet light will age the eye. just put your newspaper outside for a week. It turns yellow.

That’s from ultraviolet light. So it’s doing the same thing to your eyes. It does it to the front of the eye and mainly all the way to the lens, but, so you’re going to get cataracts sooner if you’re outdoors a lot. You’ll [00:34:00] see people that I had a lady in yesterday as a patient. She’s 75 years old, her lenses inside her eye, they look like they were like a 45 year olds.

I go and I asked her that and I said, Hey, when did you start wearing glasses? She goes, I started wearing when I was eight. that kept the whole smile line out of her eyes. It was a great test. A great example. she had glasses on since she was eight. She just kept fields probably a lot out at horizon.

Sure. She has 75. she had the lenses. Just Claire. You’re her natural lenses inside her eyes. So

Paul Swearengin: a really important 2020 question, not 2020 vision, but the year 2020 is how do we keep our glasses from fogging up when we’re wearing masks?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: It’s not an easy answer there isn’t we’ve tried a lot of different things.

I had a patient that patients come in with home remedies, like shaving cream doesn’t work. I had one says I put vinegar on it. don’t put vinegar on your lenses. That’s an acid [00:35:00] over time. That’s going to eat them up. we have, we’ve found a, there’s a spray that we sell here and I can’t tell you the name of it because we just put it in the bottles that helps some, but there’s not a really good answer.

The best answer is try to wear a mask that seals right here. that’s, where you’re sealing it right here. And that’s the best it can do, but it’s, there’s not an easy answer, wearing a mask all the way up, a little further up. so it’s. But if you have a good seal, then that’s probably the best answer, but we haven’t found it.

Paul Swearengin: I’ve been using this. I don’t know if you could say it’s called cat crap, but it. Cat crap. Yes. That’s the name? Cat crap. I can’t get it to focus on it, but

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: you get that in your backyard.

Paul Swearengin: I heard that skiers use it for their goggles.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah. yeah. And the sprays do help. We have one, they’re not they’re enough. You They do work.

[00:36:00] Paul Swearengin: That would be my answer on it. It’s better than nothing, but it’s not.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah, I know. We’ve it was backward. When we ordered, the spray, I kept asking them, Hey, we’re gonna start spray.

It’s backward. It’s backward because they ran out because the whole country was using.

Paul Swearengin: and, so Jeffrey says on Facebook, the way to keep from fogging up your glasses is not to breathe. I’m not sure. That’s great advice.

Craig Scharton: Jeffrey, that’s very funny. That is a perfect, Jeffery, humor, encapsulated right

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: there.

I have a lot of some patients, they just wear the shield, And then they don’t wear the mask that I tried to wear the shield. It distorted too much for me.

Craig Scharton: Also, if he has a stigmatism, Kenny do LASIK.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: The answer is yes, but you have to have an evaluation by some, by a good optometrist that knows [00:37:00] that’s a LASIK that does that.

Like I’ve done about co-managed about 10,000 LASIK patients since 1996. So some most astigmatism you can do, it’s gotta be done right by the, by the right surgeon. Some surgeons are better at, than others. Depends on the amount of astigmatism. And it depends on, but th the answer is probably yes, probably 90% of the time.

Craig Scharton: we’ll bring you some of his probiotic.

You guys can barter.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: I’m always open to, to anything that will help my patients.

Paul Swearengin: So I found out a little bit yesterday at my visit to your office, that cataracts are both of my brothers who are both older than me have had cataract surgery. And that’s our cataracts, just a natural part of what happens as we get older, or how do we avoid cataracts?

What do we do about them?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Okay. If you, all of [00:38:00] us live long enough, we’re going to get cataracts. Now I had a lady in a month ago. She’s a hundred, we just did our first cataract. She goes, what do you think? Do I need my other one? I said, you’re a hundred. So that’s the extreme on that. And what’s interesting.

I see a lot of Indian patients that come from India and over there, they’re not very, good about wearing sunglasses over there. It’s not a big deal, but they’re along the equator and they would come over here and I would see these 45, 50 year olds with cataracts that were just like, Where I’d usually see them when they’re 20 years older.

So what am I saying? A lot of ultraviolet light causes cataracts, and that’s, so you want to, we’re in Fresno, so there’s a lot, there’s a lot of ultra light if you’re outdoors. So where are your sunglasses? if you’re wearing your sunglasses, you’re probably gonna save yourself 10 years before you, if you’re going to get them at 70, you might get them when you’re 80.

if you’re really [00:39:00] good about that? I will say this, that if you’re looking at what your mom went through, if your mom got cataracts at 75 and you’re 50. Yeah. You’re probably going to get them at 75 too. it’s genetics has a play. I see that a lot. We’re finding out that genetics as a play and usually from mom’s side on a lot, what goes on in your eyes, but you’re going to start for Fresno.

W we start seeing most people are going to get cataracts past 70, but unless it’s in your family tree where yeah, my mom got them on, she was 50, 52 that happens. And that’s not that’s a genetic marker. Also, if you’re diabetic, get your diabetes under control because.

Metabolic conditions like that will cause cataracts and they can be aggressive growing cataracts where it’s like, what’s going on. I’m 48 years old. Why do I, why am I getting a [00:40:00] cataract it’s a diabetic condition to do that so that there are some other. other things besides this growing old, that causes cabinets.

Paul Swearengin: So you can get asked an interesting question to that in any, tie between COVID and vision. Have we ever seen anything?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: we do know that COVID causes, what’s called conjunctivitis, which is the white part of your eye turns red. I. It’s not a big issue. We haven’t seen vision loss from COVID.

so that, so I would say we have that COVID we haven’t seen any problems with that, like side effects, from the virus. We do know that if you wear it for those of you are in situations where there’s, COVID around, maybe you’re working in a hospital setting, wearing your glasses is a protection.

Because remember the [00:41:00] droplets, they just have to hit a mucus membrane. there’s mucus membranes in your eye. And so if you want, so you want to wear your mask and you want to wear your glasses. If you have glasses, And that’s that offers protection from COVID because COVID can get into that.

So they can’t get into the body through the eye. that’s it’s a well known, back on that,

Paul Swearengin: ah, interesting stuff. so do you want, Craig, should we do what’s on my mind?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: I want to say this about cataract surgery, so don’t worry about cataracts. If you have them nowadays. It’s stitched us procedure, no blood, no stitches.

You walk in, you walk out the cert that, the surgeons that we have in town are very good at it. you’ll, we’ll probably not need glasses for distance, or if you do, it’ll be a very small prescription. there’s actually multifocal now lenses. We could put in your eye where you’ve been read and seen the distance there.

the techno, when he asked me what’s [00:42:00] changed in technology, that’s a huge thing because we used to put stitches in the eye and make you sit with sandbags. when we did cataract surgery, that doesn’t happen anymore. So you’ll walk in, you’ll walk out, you’ll see right away. It pretty much, you’re not laid up at all.

You’re not in the hospital. So it’s, it’s, that’s a huge, But then when I first graduated,

Craig Scharton: we almost lost the co-host on that one.

Paul Swearengin: All right. We, w we didn’t prep you on this doc, but we do, we always finish with a segment called what’s on my mind where we talk about something totally unrelated to everything else we talked about. so be thinking of. Just something that’s on your mind in general, in the world. and, we’ll so we’ll take you last.

So you have a little bit of time

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: to think about it. I do. I only get one thing I bought 20 things.

Paul Swearengin: No, just

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: my number one thing,

[00:43:00] Paul Swearengin: Craig what’s on your mind.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: You’re not going to be the Raiders. Okay.

Craig Scharton: we’re going back into the lockdown, now and, it’s a, an interesting, continued interesting reaction from the public, but I do know a business in town and I won’t mention who they are, that their entire executive team got it because they’re all in proximity to each other.

And, I thought that was really interesting because I tend to think of. one person gets it here and one person gets it there, which is how I’ve seen it unfold. But if you think about many of our businesses, if you lose the CEO, CFO, HR director, all the way down that whole core, it’s just like how people.

don’t write in the same plane or the same car, because if it’s just a disaster for the business to have everyone go out for two or three weeks. And, I just want people, even though, some people are still having to work and, get [00:44:00] out there just still be really cautious.

I have had between Suzanne and I, we know at least 10 people in the last. 10 days or so that have gotten it.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: So

Craig Scharton: it’s really out there folks. And, it’d be nice to keep our numbers down and not have it affect you. Yeah, I, my, housekeeper, one of the three housekeepers got it. And the other two didn’t because they wear masks while they were cleaning houses together, they still were able to avoid getting and get from one to the other three.

and they were in my house, and I wear a mask when they’re here. And it just, you really just have to be on your toes and not get too

Paul Swearengin: comfortable. Yeah, definitely something to watch out for. And there was a story yesterday, a pastor in Fontana of a church down there that was, they’ve been.

Broaching the orders of the state and one of their lead pastors died, this week, which was tragic. But yeah, so it [00:45:00] sounds like if we can just hang on for a little while longer, there’s vaccines coming and things can turn around. And, in fact, I just heard Dr. Fowchee yesterday, they were asking him, you like sports doctor cost grounded.

They were asking, when will we see fans back in arenas and stadiums for sports? And he said, Joe, Like the July NBA playoffs are probably too early. We probably won’t see fans in arenas, particularly indoors by then, but he said by the fall he suspects fall of 2021, we will see full football stadiums again.

And so that was hopeful to hear.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: That is really good news. I didn’t think he would say that.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. Yeah. So that was good. Considering how my fantasy football has been totally screwed up by the Baltimore Ravens, getting COVID or getting everybody on the COVID list. It’s been a little bit brutal.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: That’d be worse. You could be a Denver fan and have your you’re tied in be the quarterback.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. At some point you’re like, why are you even play the game on [00:46:00] that one? so what’s on my mind today is the social media platform, Tik TOK. I don’t know if you guys are on Tik TOK, but. Yeah, it’s all my fault.

I jumped on to tick talk, because social media folks are giving me advice said, Hey, if you’re trying to reach a younger audience, go to Tech-Talk. Now it used to just be like 15 year olds dancing doing lip sinking songs, but it’s expanding some and. So I was at six followers on Tik TOK and woke up the next morning a couple of weeks ago and told my wife something’s wrong.

I have 2200 followers on Tik TOK. It says, so they’ve got something wrong here. but it turns out I had a post going viral, as they say. And now to this point 440,000 people have watched that video. And I now have some 22,000 followers on Tik TOK and, So I am now officially an influencer on Tik TOK, invited into their [00:47:00] creator fund and all these other things.

So yeah, it’s been fun. Everything is 62nd videos at 60 seconds or less. So you have to be really creative, how you share a message in 60 seconds. but just everything I put out there get a ton of people interact with it. it’s a pretty cool audience. So I’m having a lot of fun on Tik TOK.

Craig Scharton: I wouldn’t be on there if it weren’t for you, but, but it is, it’s always interesting to learn these new formats. My question was, Like with Twitter. If I woke up and saw that there were 2000 notifications on my Twitter account, I’d probably have a heart attack. Cause that your first response is, Oh my God, what did I do?

Paul Swearengin: Did

Craig Scharton: you have that? Did you have that moment?

Paul Swearengin: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and I’m thinking who, seeing this now, and it was funny cause I had actually three. Children of friends of mine say, Hey, you popped up on my, for [00:48:00] you feed on Tik TOK. I know you. and so I did start hearing from a lot of people.

I hadn’t heard from it a long time. Most of them saying my kids said they saw you on Tik TOK. So

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: that means you’re irrelevant.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. I am I, whatever the word is for hip these days,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah.

Craig Scharton: I think

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: the only time you hear him now is a replacement.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. I think I’m closer to the replacement than I am to actually being at, with the young people today.

But yeah, that’s been a, that’s been a lot of fun.

Craig Scharton: It’s been fun to watch it and I’m dying to actually have some time to. Ask you how you produce all of those. Cause it’s really cool. It looks very

Paul Swearengin: good. I’m learning as I go. I made one today, actually that is, I tried to do the ending to every eighties movie that’s ever been made.

every eighties kid movie, you know how back then the, every movie ended with somebody starting the slow clap and then everybody else would join [00:49:00] in and they’d be clapping. So I did it. I did my rendition of that today.

Craig Scharton: You’re having too much fun.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: I liked what you said the eighties. Not you didn’t go back to the seventies.

Paul Swearengin: Nah, I’m a little, I’m not quite there. I’m an eighties kid for sure. All right. Dr. Cuss grinding what’s on your mind.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: a lot is always on my mind because it’s always moving, but probably the number one thing on my mind right now is. You go on the freeway and you see the sign that says this, this section of the freeway is, supported by such and such.

And that’s what I found out was that all goes to one entity that’s in LA. That’s supposed to take care of picking up the trash and all that. And our freeways, especially 41 Oh one 80. It is the worst I’ve ever seen it. And I’ve been here since 76. I was here when the water tasted good, I can deal with that with water purification in my [00:50:00] house, but I can’t deal with going down the freeways and seeing all the trash it’s just disgusting.

And we need to all call. The our people, our elected officials made to find out where’s that money go, that we that’s, if you look into it, these people, we pay money to have that done and it’s not getting done and everybody sees it. it’s it’s. And when people come, through Fresno to go to Yosemite, there’s a lot of people and they see that.

they go back and they tell everybody else what a dirty city that we have. So not only is it, we don’t like it, but it’s the people that come here. They’ll give us a bad name. And then maybe some buddy wants to come here and open a business. And they think, I don’t know if I want to open a business there.

So we all need to talk to our elected officials, whoever they are from the mayor on down and from to Jim Patterson, to. [00:51:00] To Jim Costa to whoever else will listen. Supervisors.

Paul Swearengin: I think that’s Caltrans. Isn’t it?

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Chris trans Caltrans is, but who’s Caltrans. who’s lighting a fire under their feet, so you’re right.

It is Caltrans, but it’s not getting done.

Craig Scharton: Yeah, no, that’s, it’s the state representatives for sure. Need to hear about that. And, and this you’ll be an example of no matter who they are. If I agree with them regardless to party or what their other stances are, I agree with them. And I’ll disagree with someone Gary Bretta filled with on almost everything.

Really, almost everything has been on the forefront of trying to get the freeways cleaned up. And

Paul Swearengin: I give him credit for that.

Craig Scharton: As you said, what is Gary Bretta felt then that you like that’s, that would be the only thing that comes to my mind. But he, he has been on the bandwagon for [00:52:00] this and making a lot of noise and really that’s what it takes is the whole council to be passing resolutions and people calling, my friend Joaquin and Jim Patterson and, Andrea’s Borgias and the other people at the state level.

And just tell them, don’t pass the budget until Caltrans has the money to fix these things up. And. Yeah, by the way, we have a bunch of unemployed people. why aren’t we putting people to work,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: doing

Craig Scharton: what we need to get done? Let’s connect the dots, unemployed people that need skills, job that needs to get done

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: together.

let’s try make it out and do it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Craig Scharton: When did we see the idiots throwing stuff out of their cars? Like the entire bags of a KFC or whatever? I heard one time there was an interview and they were saying, how many thousand dollar fines for littering do you really do? And it was like one I’m like, that’s bullshit.

Either have the deal or don’t have the deal. But I want to know some [00:53:00] people are getting their ass handed to them for throwing crap out onto that.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: It looks so bad that then people go, I’ll just throw it out. I’m just going to add to it. Nobody cares. And you can’t have that. No care attitude.

Craig Scharton: and like you said about a business and think about like people coming up to consider going to Fresno state or not, they’re coming up 41 turning off on Shaw and going nah, I think we’ll pass. If these people don’t give a crap, then they’re not going to give a crap about anything.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Yeah. I think that’s very true.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah, we were driving by and then Blackstone 41 entrance just yet yesterday or the day before. And one of my kids pointed out like, look at that mess over there. and he’s like, why doesn’t somebody fix that? And my wife was saying, nah, that’s Caltrans. Like that’s even in the city. But see that’s it’s their job,

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: but see, here’s my thing.

Maybe it shouldn’t be Caltrans. Maybe it should be the rotary club. [00:54:00] Maybe it should be lions. Maybe it should be, all of us getting together and say, Hey, let’s all get together on a Saturday with some paper bags and let’s crank out a mile. Let’s crank out a fourth of a mile and just get that done and what’s wrong with them?

Close off the close off part of the freeway or whatever, with some orange cones and let’s go clean up our city. If they’re not going to do it, why isn’t it? Why does it, let’s talk to Brandao over at the, and talk to the city council. Somebody should say, they’re not going to do that. And then let’s do it ourselves.

I

Craig Scharton: always wanted to do a big blockade. I think we should just get a whole bunch of people. We’ll all throw couches and stuff. A block off the freeway and till they get it fixed, what do you think?

Paul Swearengin: I think you’re going in the opposite direction. that’s what, the doctor’s talking about here.

Craig Scharton: I will park all of our, all of our trucks and block the freeway.

How does that sound?

Paul Swearengin: Yeah, I think the [00:55:00] other thing on the freeway is I’ve heard talk of a, a toll. at the North end of 41, because we’re going to be, Fresno is going to carry the brunt of all these people driving from Madera County, and, the maintenance of the roads and things.

And so there is some talk that maybe we help people help us offset that as they’re driving in from their homes North of the river.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Craig, that day you do that. I think I’m busy that day.

Paul Swearengin: All right. Very nice.

Craig Scharton: That’s it? There’ll be

Paul Swearengin: golf carts.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. Will blockade with golf

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: carts.

Paul Swearengin: Nice. All right. Hi, Dr.

Casa Grande day. Appreciate you coming on and tell us everything there was to know about the eyeball in 2020.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: we scratched the surface and there’s a lot more there.

Paul Swearengin: Optometrists humor. I like it. All right, Craig. Good talking to you again.

Craig Scharton: Good to see a Tom.

Dr. Tomas Casagrande: Good to see you both.

Paul Swearengin: And thanks to [00:56:00] everybody who joined us on Facebook and all the gang.

So always

Craig Scharton: this will help a lot of people. Thank you. Wear your

Paul Swearengin: mask up. Everyone. There you go. I like it. Alright guys, we’ll see you take care.

Fresno’s Second Oldest Business is One of the Most Innovative Dec 10, 2020

Matt Nicoletti, Business Development Director for Fresno’s Penny Newman.

————————————————————-
Transcript: Translated by Artificial Intelligence
Two Guys Regenerative Farming

Craig Scharton: [00:00:00] Matt Nicoletti is in charge of business development for penny Newman, which we established, we think is the second oldest business in Fresno. Uh, Fresno ag has you beat by two years. Pretty close

Matt Nicoletti: though. You, you,

Craig Scharton: you still

Matt Nicoletti: look pretty young.

Paul Swearengin: So how, how old, how old is his number? Is the number two oldest company in the history of France.

Matt Nicoletti: I’d have to do

Craig Scharton: subtraction, but it’s 1878.

Matt Nicoletti: So let’s see. So is that one 42, one? Uh, yeah, 142 years. All right. And your,

Craig Scharton: your younger brain cells worked very

Matt Nicoletti: well. Yeah. Um, well it’s, uh, yeah, um, phone number. I should be tracking readily able to answer. Um, but, uh, yeah, no we’re, um, penny Newman, um, uh, uh, like we said, was founded in 1878 and it was an agricultural dry goods store.

It wasn’t all too different from Fresno [00:01:00] ag in that respect back in the day. Um, but evolved into a commodity trading business, marketing of grain. Um, uh, marketing of planting seed, um, and then it evolved into a feed business. As the livestock sector really exploded in California and the production of grain and feed type of ingredients really declined significantly in California.

So that industry became more heavily reliant upon industry structure, um, that was owned and operated by companies like penny Newman. That could bring in large quantities of grain and feed type of ingredients from out of state where, which are the largest production, larger production sheds of those types of agricultural goods.

It’s kind of inverse of what you would think of California, because we’re such a net producer, net exporter of agricultural goods. Um, but these types of commodities that make up penny Newman’s core competencies were very much a net deficit state.

Craig Scharton: And yeah, he had to keep buying bigger and bigger quantities, which is kind of an unimaginable volume.

I just can’t even picture it [00:02:00] when we were talking about it the other night. Um, but we are a huge producer of dairy products. And so you’ve got to get the grain into them. Right.

Matt Nicoletti: Indeed. Yeah. And we they’ve th the, the California produce stuff that the dairy sector consumes here. It’s mostly byproducts almond, wholes, obviously being a really popular one.

We just harvested our largest almond crop ever, you know, 3 billion pounds, um, byproducts from the food processing. You know, we’ve got a lot of grapes and the great pumice from the winery sector, the, um, bakery waste, the mill feed bride products from all the flour milling that we have in the state. Those are.

Those are very much, you know, staples in the dairy ration, but the, the most th the, the most high value, um, commodities in the dairy ration are for the most part coming in from either out of state or even overseas.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. And what, and what we wanted to kind of jump to was I was really excited to hear

Matt Nicoletti: about,

Craig Scharton: uh, your, uh, interests in, [00:03:00] um, In regenerative ag.

So we kind of nerd it out about that, uh, through our mutual friend and, uh, your employee fan Telus, and I, um, Uh, had a beer in my backyard a week or two ago. And, uh, we just, we really went pretty, pretty far off the nerd cliff, uh,

Matt Nicoletti: for most people,

Paul Swearengin: but

Craig Scharton: it was very fun to have someone local that I could do that with.

Matt Nicoletti: Thrilled to see that you were so interested in it as well with the op-ed piece and everything. I mean, it’s, it’s great to see that, you know, we’re not stepping out too far in the, in the lunacy, uh, ledge by, by, by really committing to this movement. But it’s something that I just continue getting proof of concept with in the field and, you know, with every.

Every grower that, you know, we participate with. And the more sophisticated we get about collecting data and realizing the potential of taking a more biological approach to crop production, the more I believe in that [00:04:00] legitimacy of this movement. So it’s, it’s really, really exciting, um, to see folks, you know, coming to the table and, and, and really realizing the potential.

Well, and

Craig Scharton: it’s, I think with Paul, you know, being a pastor and he’s been doing some interesting, um, panel discussions, you know, it all starts kind of lining up. Like if you believe in a creator and creation or whether you’re more science-based and you believe in the biology and, and, and, uh, you know, the inner workings of, of, uh, Chemistry about how all of these things are starting to line up with people.

You know, all, all, it seems like

Matt Nicoletti: all of our needs can

Craig Scharton: kind of be met if we start working toward or walking toward the, the programs that you guys are putting out there. So how you D you defined, uh, regenerative ag in your, uh, September [00:05:00] newsletter. I thought really well,

Matt Nicoletti: if you remember

Craig Scharton: what that was, how, how do you state it for a person that’s just tuning in, or even for a farmer that’s heard about it and doesn’t really know what it means.

Matt Nicoletti: Yeah. So, and I appreciate that question because it’s super complicated. If you were to Google it, I mean, the answers you’d come across are. Diverse. And in a lot of times there’s an emphasis on the practice. It’s about integrating livestock with crop production. It’s cover crop. It’s no till or conservation tillage, it’s X, Y, and Z.

And you know, what we tried to, uh, really convey in the newsletter is what are all of those things intended to accomplish? And really in our opinion, the simple definition is farming with an emphasis on soil health. Um, and I do think that is a succinct definition, but right. What the heck does soil health mean?

You know, so you’ve got to sort of take it one step further and define that. And, um, really, you know, no over simplification would be to say so healthy soil is that, which is [00:06:00] rich in organic matter. And biodiversity, it supports a robust population of microorganisms, bacteria, and Michael, as a fungi are the two that, you know, are sort of the main ones when it comes to the, the, the, uh, uh, the, uh, microbes that are doing the work that the plants are ultimately beneficiaries of.

Um, but the organic matter it’s, it’s really great. I mean, they can create an environment. Those microbes are what create the organic matter. It’s organic material. You know, the leaf falls off the tree when that leaf breaks down and gets incorporated into the soil. It’s being decomposed by those microbes.

Right? And so that organic material becomes organic matter, which creates an environment that is more suitable for more microbes, which are doing all the hard work of mining the nutrients and transporting the nutrients to the plant. So you get this crazy myriad of benefits from both a productivity perspective.

And an environmental stewardship perspective. It was honestly hard to believe when I really first started diving [00:07:00] into the science and the potential behind all this stuff. So, but to answer your question, it’s farming with an emphasis on soil health and, you know, it’s just a healthy living soil is really what we’re trying to accomplish with regenerative agriculture.

Paul Swearengin: So it’s, it seems like long-term having healthy soil is going to have, you’re going to have a good return on that investment. Is it. Does it lower the profit margin short term. Uh, and, and you’re doing it for charity and generosity to the earth, or does it have a, is it profitable to do regenerate work the way you are doing it?

Matt Nicoletti: So a part of our sort of ethos and strategy is everything that we’re. Implementing on farm. We like to see a return on investment in year one. You know, long-term, if you’re really, really taking a plunge and implementing every practice, that would be a part of our full program soup to nuts. You might be slightly exceeding your standard conventional budget, you know, and there’s.

Well, weird conflation and confusion with what’s the difference between organic and [00:08:00] regenerative. Um, organic, there is a huge premium and the production costs with the, just the premium on the fertilizers. The, you know, generally expected compromising yield. Um, but organic is all about what you can’t use.

Right. You can’t use synthetics. It’s not just the pesticides. It’s also this instead of synthetic fertilizers and most of our fertilizers are synthetically produced. Um, but in the case of regenerative, it’s all about what did you accomplish? You know, are you moving the needle in a direction towards healthier soil?

And what we like to see is growers get that return on investment in year one. I mean, we have a number of products that can be used as a standalone where we say use this instead of this. Make room for the budget in this, by getting rid of that other thing you’re using, which by the way, is adding, is compromising your soil’s ability to propagate microorganisms and, and host that biological life that is, you know, essentially the bedrock of regenerative agriculture.

So, um, use this other alternative [00:09:00] instead. And if you see, you know, a percentage increase in yield and quality to the point where, you know, You’re generating a significant ROI in year one, then, you know, it’s hard to argue against it, right? Because a lot of the, the, the, the challenge with different environmentally based movements, they require such significant upfront capital intensive investments, you know, clean energy, cleaning up after yourself costs a lot of money.

Right. And one of the reasons I’m so optimistic about regenerative agriculture is because of how often we see an ROI in year one for our growers.

Craig Scharton: Well, without naming names, you’ve, you’ve been doing some kind of on the ground research already. Right? So

Matt Nicoletti: what is that,

Craig Scharton: what is that yielding? What are you, what are you learning?

Matt Nicoletti: So, you know, when we first started getting into this, it might be fun for me to give you guys a little bit of context as to how we got here to, uh, because it was serendipitous. Uh, admittedly, I’d love to tell you that I was. You know, incredibly forward thinking and doing a lot of outreach and trying to figure out how we [00:10:00] can get into this space.

And there was a little bit of that in there, but, um, really it’s, it can be attributed to one gentleman by the name of Dennis butcher who walked into our office a few years ago. Um, gentleman from Utah that had an idea for a soil amendment. And we said, great. You know, that’s a market, we’re not really that active or participating in.

Tell us a little bit more about that, your idea for it. And, um, you know, you know, as, as we started, as I started gaining a better understanding of what his amendment and his agrinomic program, he has since introduced us to quite a number of other products that make up our agronomic program, um, I’m also, you know, becoming aware of this growing movement with regenerative agriculture.

And I realized that everything he is promoting, um, is exactly what this movement is calling for. It’s the emphasis on the soil health, the soil biology, the microorganisms. And so, um, it, uh, I realized I’ve got to figure out how to connect these two things, right? How do I take advantage of this movement to at [00:11:00] least just increase awareness around what we’re doing, or figure out how to reward growers for, you know, hitting these new environmental standards and those sorts of things.

But one thing that I recognized just simply in our sales process, and you know, again, we’re new to this game relatively is you have to prove what you’re saying. These things do are actually being accomplished in the field. Right. So, you know, in the case of regenerative, are we seeing an increase in organic matter?

Are we seeing increased micronutrient uptake without the addition of micronutrients, um, you know, growers spend an immense amount of money on micronutrient for, for fertilizers, zinc, boron, and the like, um, whereas, you know, what, what we’ve one thing we do in particular that is really unique is with a soil analysis.

Um, Or your standard soil analysis only shows what’s quote unquote available. It doesn’t show what actually exists. There, there is a signal in, particularly in the West. We have very minerally, nutrient dense soils. And so when you look at a, um, [00:12:00] standard soil analysis, it, it there’s because of the bonding between those minerals and the ratios being a bit out of whack and the lack of the, um, uh, bacteria that are there to break the bonds and make those things available to the plant.

Um, you’re actually not seeing the availability of what’s there, there might be 200 times more calcium in that soil than what’s showing available. So what we like to do is. Something called a natural nitric acid or totals test. Um, and not a lot of folks are doing that. It blew my mind when I found out, found out that that’s not status quo, that we’re not trying to figure out what’s there and mind what’s actually there that we’re adding these, you know, expensive, typically synthetically derived inputs to make up for that deficiency.

And I think a lot of folks don’t recognize that, you know, we’re really aren’t that deficient in, in, in mineral nutrients, we’re deficient in biology. Out here. And, um, so a lot of the stuff we’ve been doing is revealing the, uh, the, the potential that our soils have simply [00:13:00] by just nurturing them in a way that allows you to, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, harvest what’s there and reap the benefits.

And so just being, and it’s, it’s super simple stuff, you know, are we getting better nutrients? Take are we increasing the soil organic matter? Are we getting better water infiltration? Um, but we are going to start getting more geeky with it. We’re going to start counting earthworms and things like that too.

So, uh,

Paul Swearengin: how do you count earthworms? Is, is it a per, uh, per a, a particular measure and you just pull up some dirt cubic foot of dirt? Yep. Okay.

Matt Nicoletti: regenerative agriculture.

Paul Swearengin: I love it. Counting earthworms that you get paid big bucks

Matt Nicoletti: for that totally. It’s a labor intensive process. And that process is yet to be automated. So it’s costly, Craig, it looks like you’re on mute.

Paul Swearengin: I lost you, Craig. You’re not on mute.

Craig Scharton: Oh, there you go. That’s my it’s my microphone.

[00:14:00] Paul Swearengin: Okay.

Craig Scharton: My grandsons don’t know I’ve been training them for that job for several years. Uh, I bought them a couple of kids size shovels a couple of years ago for Christmas. And when I come over, they go let’s hunt for earthworms, grandpa,

Matt Nicoletti: and we just start

Craig Scharton: digging in the yard and pulling them. So I’m working on your, uh,

Matt Nicoletti: your labor force mat.

That’s great. Yeah. Except I’m not sure the legalities of that. We have pretty strong labor laws here in California, regulatory intensive. So, um, we’ll figure something out there, correct?

Craig Scharton: We like to say, uh, well, they can volunteer, I think maybe

Matt Nicoletti: a volunteer. Um, and I think Fenn was telling me he got your soil, that soil, that analyses done for your backyard there so

Craig Scharton: bad,

Matt Nicoletti: we can help.

Craig Scharton: It is so bad. I need

Paul Swearengin: more earthworms.

Craig Scharton: I do.

Matt Nicoletti: What’s your average organic matter out there? Did, did he tell you

Craig Scharton: what it was? It was really bad.

Matt Nicoletti: Is it below [00:15:00] 1%? Yeah.

Craig Scharton: Uh, we did three at the joke, you know, of, I call my place Sharpton acres, even though it’s like a fifth of an acre. Um, so we called the three samples that he did the front 40, the middle 40 and the back

Matt Nicoletti: 40, uh, but it’s really square feet.

Craig Scharton: Um, he’s right there. He should yell. He should yell what it is. So I don’t look for it, but it’s like one was over one and the other were below one. So. Uh, so I think what we want to do is, is I’m going to challenge Finn. I don’t know, a hundred bucks or something, and we’re going to see who can increase their soil, uh, organic matter, like in a year’s time or something.

And turn this into a, um, a man’s

Matt Nicoletti: sport. Are you going to be, are you going to be using fin for any, any sort of product support and guidance

Craig Scharton: stuff till I challenged them for a hundred bucks and then he was like,

Matt Nicoletti: you’re on your own.

Paul Swearengin: We should probably [00:16:00] tell people tuning in that fin is sitting in the, in the background off, right?

Matt Nicoletti: Yes.

Paul Swearengin: Yep. Let me see. You can do this, Craig, if you guys can hear this, it’s been a while since we’ve done an actual podcast. So let me see if our, if our bumpers work anymore, hang on here. Oh, wait, if I can’t even hear that. Okay, nevermind. So let’s do a know your guest,

Matt Nicoletti: Craig.

Craig Scharton: We’re out. We’re out of shape.

Paul Swearengin: We are.

Geez. I don’t even know how to make this stuff work anymore. Anyway, let’s do a know your guests.

Craig Scharton: Matt, tell us, tell us about yourself.

Matt Nicoletti: Um, I’m 32 years old. I just got married in August. That’s no good wedding. It was supposed to be a big blowout ranger in September because my wife and I and our families are pretty S pretty social bunch.

Um, so, uh, it was around maybe may when we realized that our plans were not going to be coming to fruition in the way that we’d originally hoped. Um, so we, uh, we still got married. We just did took the plunge, just our [00:17:00] immediate families, um, on the beach, uh, down in Santa Barbara. And we are hoping we can have that big party at some point next year.

Um, but, uh, yeah, I grew up born and raised in Fresno. I went to high school at San Joaquin Memorial, played football there. Uh, I went to USC on an academic scholarship. Uh, after I graduated, I moved to San Francisco for a few years and worked for a startup. Uh, called Eventbrite. You guys might’ve used it for live events or to stuff.

They were, you know, just a few years old. When I went to work there, I was the 80th employee. By the time I left, there was 600 of us. It was pretty crazy. Um, and then they, they S they, they IPO it a few years ago, actually. Um, but I was on the music and entertainment team. And then that’s another passion of mine is music.

I’m a hobbyist musician, musician. I played with a group of guys up there and played in college and. I’ve got a music room right over there, one hallway over here. So, um, definitely something I intend to get involved, um, within the community, uh, [00:18:00] as years go on and I increased my personal bandwidth outside of the office.

Paul Swearengin: Awesome. I buy music. Are you a singer musician

Matt Nicoletti: producer? Yeah, so I, I percussion, I can mess around on a bass guitar and a guitar, but, um, but percussion was my thing mainly.

Paul Swearengin: Very nice. Cool.

Craig Scharton: So, so like in trying to think about what this regenerative ag thing could do,

Paul Swearengin: by the way, Craig, let me jump in real quick.

And we, somebody named Mark Mitchell, is that somebody you guys know

Matt Nicoletti: yeah. From Aquile.

Paul Swearengin: So Mark says preach it. Mat soil biology is the next wave in agriculture. Growers are finally waking up to this

Matt Nicoletti: Mark. Appreciate the shout out.

Craig Scharton: What does the Valley look like in five to 10 years? If we really

Matt Nicoletti: embrace this plus dusty.

Craig Scharton: That’s huge though. Right?

Matt Nicoletti: That’s fine. But that’s one of the things [00:19:00] that, like, I just get super motivated by. I mean, we didn’t get into the long list of environmental benefits and it can get a little bit dense if we start to do that. But one of the, one of the, one of the cool things about the benefits of increased soil organic matter is the ability for soil to retain water, right.

Uh, and infiltrate water better water is a huge issue here. We need to get, we need to be able to make. The most out of what little scarce water we have here. And the best way to do that is to emphasize soil biology, soil organic matter. And for every 1% increase, it can retain between 20 and 50,000 gallons, more per acre.

So think about if we have more

Craig Scharton: for one sec, right? Yeah. So one acre of land, you increase the soil biology from.

Matt Nicoletti: Two to

Craig Scharton: 3%. That means little critters in the soil would save would hold more than 20,000 gallons of water on that acre in the soil. [00:20:00] Then if it, if it doesn’t improve

Matt Nicoletti: and that’s per 1%, you said two to three.

So two to three, you would expect the multiple, right? Yeah.

Craig Scharton: So I would say if it goes from 2% organic. 20,008, 20,000 gallons per acre, or more

Paul Swearengin: over what period of time.

Matt Nicoletti: In a year

Paul Swearengin: and a year.

Matt Nicoletti: Well, I mean, the there’s, there’s sort of not necessarily a time correlation it’s if it’s just, if you get that 1% increase, no matter how long it takes that water should be able to retain them or that, excuse me, that soil should be able to retain the water to that.

And when you see a healthy soil, it looks like a spongy, you know, they refer to it as kind of a chocolate cakey type texture, a lot of aggregates. Um, and, and that’s another benefit of planting cover crop, and things like that is, is, is the. Uh, prevention of erosion from, from, from dust, it caps the soil, it, it retains the moisture.

Um, it’ll prevent loss from runoff erosion. [00:21:00] And then, you know, of course in our case, come, come August. We start getting pretty dusty around here when we start shaking trees and, you know, making passes. Um, so that is, that is when you say, what does it look like? What’s the big difference? I would say if we, if we could collectively raise.

The level of organic matter in California by 3% within that timeframe, which I think that’s a pretty tall order. I mean, we are setting out and committing ourselves. That is our mission in life right now. Um, because California is our backyard. That’s a big enough market for us to, you know, focus all of our efforts on, although we do have aspirations to expand elsewhere.

Um, it. That would just really, really just bring a tear to my eye if we could pull that off and really, really see the visible benefit when you’re driving to work and when I’m driving to work and I’m looking at downtown Fresno and I can, and it doesn’t look like I could eat, you know, take a piece of the cotton candy sky and eat it, you know?

Um, that would be really fulfilling. Well,

Paul Swearengin: that is it. [00:22:00] God Gregory

Craig Scharton: better air holds more water. I think about like the economics, like if the farmers are more profitable though, because they’re spending less on inputs and they make more money, which is great for our economy. Right.

Matt Nicoletti: Totally.

Craig Scharton: Um, and then, you know, I think just too about like being a leader in this tends to get

Matt Nicoletti: people.

Attracted

Craig Scharton: to steady it and learn the skills and all of that as well. Like being progressive in terms of being on the front end of

Matt Nicoletti: whether it’s

Craig Scharton: technology or health or business, whatever it is like, can we really embrace something and become a leader in it?

Matt Nicoletti: Yeah. Yeah. Um, it would be it’s it’s, you know, I, I remember from our conversation, uh, Craig, when you mentioned how there’s a bit of a.

Uh, uh, Midwestern flavor to a lot of the regenerative ag stuff that’s been going on. And you mentioned the, the economic, [00:23:00] um, benefits, which again are part of the reason that I’m so optimistic mystic about it and why? I believe it has such legitimate future. It can stand up on its own two legs and a capitalist society, you know?

Um, but. California farmers haven’t struggled as much as Midwestern farmers. I think that’s one thing that gets overlooked. You know, the commoditization of that broad acreage crop, corn and soy wheat, you know, their options are limited and all the infrastructure, the, the, the, the, the processing facilities, the ethanol plants, the big corn elevators that.

Quite frankly, load unit trains and ship them to the penny Newman’s of the world. Um, they, those growers don’t have a lot of options, you know, whereas in California, we’re next to the premium consumer. Um, we grow crops that are difficult to grow elsewhere. So there’s been, you know, just more supply control and really great, you know, a couple of really, uh, excellent marketers, you know, in groups of marketers out here pushing the health benefits of the things that we’re known for, you know, fruits and nuts and whatnot.

So, um, [00:24:00] there’s been less pain points. In California, um, from an economic standpoint, driving folks to adopt regenerative practices, but per my previous comment about just harvesting the largest almond crop we’ve ever had, almond prices have taken a nosedive, uh, and a number of other commodities that are California production driven or, you know, core commodities here are, are, uh, the economics are, are, are starting to feel a lot more pressure.

So this hopefully will motivate folks to adopt these new practices, but. I think we all know out here from a regulatory standpoint, we face the most burdensome environmental regulations and things like that. So if this is a way in which you can preempt regulatory compliance and get rewarded for it in the short term, I mean, and that’s the thing, like one of the hardest parts of our job is convincing people that we’re not just.

Blowing smoke up their butt with that kind of a grandiose claim, you know? Cause that’s too good to be true, but it’s like, Hey, you’re going to have to do this in 10 years. Anyways. We’re just going to show you how to do it. And by the way, you’re going to save money and [00:25:00] your yield and quality is going to increase that’s.

I mean, when, if you actually went and gave that whole pitch, you’d be laughed out the door. So we’ve gotta be, we’ve got control. It helps, uh, in the sales process a little bit just to make sure we don’t have that sort of reaction.

Paul Swearengin: So, let me ask you a little bit about, about the business for, for people that don’t know a lot about it.

Um, I see it started as a, as a mercantile store and, and I see kind of all the different things you do, but did I hear you say most of your, uh, your business is done in the state?

Matt Nicoletti: Yeah, so we are destination market. Like our grower direct reach is predominantly California based. Um, and most of our, you know, Grower isn’t the right word necessarily.

Cause our largest market that we’re serving is the dairy industry. We’re a feed supplier. Uh, and we, we, we procure California based byproducts. Like I mentioned, almond wholes, and those sorts of things in market that is dairy feed. But again, you know, uh, really the, the, the vast majority of what we do comes from out of state or overseas.

Uh, and [00:26:00] there was a paradigm shift with the railroads where you needed to be able to build a facility that can receive a hundred rail cars at a time in order to be competitive in a given market. So that led to big solidation amongst the companies that were handling feed and grain in California. And there’s really.

Five penny Newman, white companies left of the 30 plus that there once were in the feed industry back in, you know, only a several decades ago. So, um, that, uh, the, the, we, we kind of view the rest of the country as an origination, like speaking to our core business, the rest of the countries where we originate stuff, California, Idaho, Washington is where we sell stuff.

For the most part and that’s dairy, um, pet food has been a really big growing market for us as well. Um, we sell it, we originate, you know, grains for milling, you know, human consumption, flour, those sorts of things. Um, And then with this division of our business, it’s it’s fertilizer and soil based. So, you know, a lot of, all of our dairy customers, you know, they grow their, their own feed to some degree.

Um, and many [00:27:00] of them have smartly diversified into other modes of crop production. Uh, and then of course, all the folks that we’ve sold, planting seed and bought grain from throughout the years, they’re the same folks, you know, that are now growing tomatoes, almond and citrus. Everything. So, um, it’s one advantage that we had was just having the sort of household name out here in the customer list and the relationships, it, it gave our guru Dennis, some at-bats to go out there and get his product tried.

And, you know, as, as we were learning. You know how this worked and how legit it was. We kind of had to keep pinching ourselves because it was just good news after good news after good news. And then, you know, we were like, let’s really build something here. The principals bought in and they’ve been supporting, uh, Dennis and myself and our team.

And we were able to bring fin on and Finn’s been kicking butt. He’s out a lot, added a lot of professionalism to what we do. And, um, I think is, you know, like Craig very impassioned about the potential for, um, uh, regenerative agriculture to heal some of the wrongs we’ve done. Hmm,

[00:28:00] Paul Swearengin: sorry. I was interested in that and that you spoke to that a little bit, but how, how do you get a company that’s been around that long to be, to be innovative and want to do something new?

Matt Nicoletti: Um, well, uh, I will say that, um, uh, we, we faced our share of challenges and we have to be kind of, uh, tasteful in terms of what we ask for, uh, as far as resources to support us, continuing to build this, um, We were lucky in that it didn’t take an immense amount of risk for us to get started, to give that guy Dennis, his platform to, to start getting product out there.

But I will not pull wool over anybody’s eyes. When I say that initially we were Jerry rigging it a little bit. Um, it was hard for, on him, a lot of work, and, but now we’ve gotten way more. I mean, we’ve got him dedicated infrastructure, a fleet of ball tanks and trailers, and, um, you know, a number of employees that are being trained around this is our sales process.

This is our ethos. And so the way to a way to get a company like that to, um, invest in [00:29:00] innovation is show that, that show that we can build a business out of it, you know, shows successes from the field. So positive feedback in those early years from our growers is what we needed. And we got that. So, and now we’re proving it with data.

So which, which reinforces that even better? Well,

Paul Swearengin: this is cool Craig. Cause I think we always love to highlight local central California businesses that are doing things. And when we think we don’t have anything like this, it’s always good to know. Hey, there is, there are great companies that are sending out widgets and bringing in, uh, economic growth into central California and that they exist and they exist here.

Craig Scharton: Yeah, I think it’s really going to be good too. Cause there’s really been a, I think a big split in our state. I don’t know. Every once in a while I’ll hear

Matt Nicoletti: like

Craig Scharton: there’s an assembly district that kind of is calf. Like it goes a little bit into the Valley, but it’s mostly in the Bay area and you know, they’ll just run [00:30:00] ads going.

Like I will stand up to those horrible polluting Valley farmers and I’m like, Wait a minute. How did this land on, on the central Valley radio station? And, and I mean, they actually get political gain political ground by beating up on us. And I think that’s, you know, being from here, I don’t, I don’t like that.

And I think it just perpetuates these false lines. But I think a lot of what you guys are doing there, Matt is really gonna flip that around to where people start viewing the, the Valley really is the solution, not the problem.

Matt Nicoletti: And we can

Craig Scharton: really lead the way I think.

Matt Nicoletti: I I, yeah. I mean, I sure hope so. I mean like one anecdote I would have for, you know, you guys were asking about the difficulty of getting this whole thing started.

And, um, you know, when this gentleman Dennis came in with this idea for the soil amendment and was teaching us about soil health and microbes and all those sorts of things, uh, as mentioned, you know, he, he, [00:31:00] wasn’t talking about this regenerative agriculture movement. He wasn’t a. You know, a coastal elite idealist coming in, you know, with some sort of fantastical, uh, approach without understanding the real nuances and challenges of farming.

This is somebody who. In the was, is educated in the dirt in the soil, I should say. Um, and, and, and, and was just taking a very pragmatic approach. This is the best way to farm. This is how you get the best yield and quality and be good steward of costs with your inputs. And so, you know, from my perspective, if I didn’t have dentists, they’re telling me that, and, and the firsthand observations of the results we were getting, if I was just reading the ideologically driven.

You know, mostly, you know, coastal elite type of driven publications that are publishing most of what we’re hearing about regenerative agriculture. I would approach it with a hefty dose of skepticism. I’d be going, you guys don’t understand how hard this actually is. And in fact, that’s kind of how I used to [00:32:00] be.

So, um, you know, when we, when we were in the midst of the drought years, you remember you, everybody remembers the gallon of water to grow one almond. Right? And so I have. All right. And it’s the coastal elites that just loved, they latched onto that stat and it was published everywhere and it’s like, we’ll stop eating almond butter.

Then you know, your, your, the ones you drink, you probably drink more. I’m going to go, can we do? Um, but, uh, you know, it’s, it’s what’s to your point, Craig, it’s, it’s awesome because we can totally flip that narrative. You know what I mean? Instead of just. Ha like reducing the environmental burden of food production, which that’s very much what it is.

There’s no denying it. Like, like all things production related and energy production related. It has negative byproducts and consequences, but agriculture is the one thing. That through doing it the right way. Um, we can actually heal the planet. Like there’s not a lot of healing solutions that are being presented.

There’s a, Hey, [00:33:00] let’s slow it down type of solution rather than. We can sequester atmosphere carbon. We can produce more nutrient dense food. We can clean our water. It’s amazing. And it’s all, it’s all the microbes. It’s the power of microbes. I’ve totally bought into this. Obviously drinking the Kool-Aid or combined, I should say

Craig Scharton: that’s the microbes.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah,

Craig Scharton: that, that is really cool. And then, so you’re actually, and you’re trying to create. Create a market for these products. So there’s higher value return.

Matt Nicoletti: Yup. I mean, longterm, that is the goal. I mean, like I said, you know, there should be an ROI for the grower in year one. Right. But why should they not be rewarded for hitting these new standards right.

That consumers want to see and consumers want to see, I mean, there’s, there’s other folks out there doing it, right. If you look at general, general mills, They’ve pledged to transition 1 million acres to regenerative by 2030 Cargill, 10 million acres, [00:34:00] right? Some of the largest food and ag businesses in the world, general mills is an end-user a consumer of so many food ingredients, things that we produce right here in California.

So if we can help the growers. Implement these practices that accomplish these outcomes, tell them more about these outcomes, help them identity, preserve what they’re producing here and go to those brands. And off-takers then hopefully we can help them be rewarded by, uh, even more than what they should be.

Just. Without that premium incentive, right. Uh, or that access to this new category, um, that is that a lot of folks are racing to develop right now. Organic is not going to be the only thing out there that consumers have as an option. That’s better for them and better for the environment.

Paul Swearengin: So we have a couple of comments and appreciate everybody, uh, on Facebook with us.

And our friend D says, Oh, those evil farmers. And then last, and then she said, Craig, quit trashing the coastal elites because her sister lives in. Yeah. So we’ve, we’ve [00:35:00] been one

Craig Scharton: now. I don’t think we fit the elite category, but I, we have lived there.

Matt Nicoletti: Don’t

Paul Swearengin: you just become elite when you live in the Bay area, doesn’t it just sort of naturally happen.

Matt Nicoletti: Yeah, I lived there and it didn’t feel that way.

Craig Scharton: You have to be on guard all the time. Uh, and when you find yourself with your Birkenstocks wearing your hemp clothes, uh, at the Sonoma farmer’s market, it can be real,

Matt Nicoletti: you know,

Craig Scharton: in mill Valley or something. It can be real dangerous. Very,

Matt Nicoletti: very much.

I

Craig Scharton: remember being at the Sonoma’s farmer’s market in the first Gulf war had just started. And, uh, and this lady goes, I just think we’re on

Matt Nicoletti: the brink of world.

Craig Scharton: Peace man. You live with a really nice bubble. I can’t can’t quite

get

Matt Nicoletti: it.

Paul Swearengin: How was Memorial’s football team when you were there, Matt to ask a really important question

Matt Nicoletti: for them?

Well, we were really good up until my senior year when I was the captain [00:36:00] of the team finally. And we started the year, I think with five straight losses. So. Uh, we ended up getting our, getting our act together when we won league that year. But then we won our first lost our first game in the platelet playoffs.

So we had a great run my freshman to junior year and a Valley championship my sophomore year. But, uh, I don’t know something happened when I hopefully my leadership of penny Newman, um, out matches my leadership. It’s football time.

Craig Scharton: It’s a lot better to learn your lessons on the football field than, than

Matt Nicoletti: in the middle of the company.

Yeah, that’s for sure. Absolutely.

Paul Swearengin: No, I

Matt Nicoletti: haven’t been back because of it.

Paul Swearengin: Do we want to do what’s on my mind, Craig?

Matt Nicoletti: Sure.

Paul Swearengin: Alright. What’s on my mind time where we talk about nothing in particular or whatever is on our mind. So Craig, you want to kick us off?

Craig Scharton: Yeah, cause I’m going to kind of tie it in together.

So I, I got bunnies, Paul.

Paul Swearengin: Ooh, nice.

Matt Nicoletti: I got four bunnies.

Craig Scharton: Uh, so [00:37:00] when, uh, Matt and Finn came over the other day, uh, you know, like I said, we’re turning it on this male, uh, competition thing.

Matt Nicoletti: Um,

Craig Scharton: females might not, might do that too. I’m just not one of them.

Matt Nicoletti: But I

Craig Scharton: know among males, we can do this thing where, you know, who caught the biggest fish or whatever example you can think of.

So Finn goes, well, when are you going to incorporate animals into your regenerative farm here? Sharpton.

Matt Nicoletti: Yeah. And I’m like, Whoa.

Paul Swearengin: Uh,

Craig Scharton: so I said, all right, I, I can’t get. I can’t get chickens. I can’t do this. I can’t do this. I can get rabbits. They’re legal.

Matt Nicoletti: I

Craig Scharton: can have ’em. They can eat a bunch of stuff I grow and they can poop and I can put that poop out.

And that gets the biology of the soil going. So, because of that, and so. We have another mutual friend, Andrew, uh, sensing from, uh, Tavern, uh,

Matt Nicoletti: as a

Craig Scharton: biology [00:38:00] professor and a farmer from the Midwest. Uh, and I had taken them a couple of rabbits that I had trapped a few years ago

Matt Nicoletti: and he’s kept breeding them.

Craig Scharton: And so I called them, said, Hey, if you ever have any baby rabbits, uh, let me know.

He goes, Oh, I have some that just when they’re ready this weekend,

Matt Nicoletti: I was like, Oh

Craig Scharton: crap. And so, yeah, so I’ve, uh, been building a hatch and, but stuff at whities forum. And he gave me four rabbits back, uh, on my investment or two that I gave him.

Matt Nicoletti: And, uh, and they’re eating like crazy. Like

Craig Scharton: there’s no amount of

Matt Nicoletti: kale or

Craig Scharton: lemon leaves or anything that I

Matt Nicoletti: can put

Craig Scharton: in there.

I’ll go back after this and it will be completely gone through again. And so I’m going to have to, uh,

Matt Nicoletti: be

Craig Scharton: planting more crop. I might have to buy more acreage

Matt Nicoletti: just to

Craig Scharton: keep my rabbits fed.

Matt Nicoletti: Has Finn got your cover crop mix yet?

Craig Scharton: Not yet. [00:39:00] Okay.

Matt Nicoletti: But over there right now,

Craig Scharton: but I got to get that. Oh my gosh. I’m so embarrassed in my little organics in my soil.

Matt Nicoletti: I’m just horrified.

Paul Swearengin: Hmm. What’s on your mind today, Matt?

Matt Nicoletti: Well, um, you know, I’d mentioned that I just got married and uh, I, you know, with COVID rearing its ugly head again. Um, I just, I would like to know whether or not we’re going to get to have that big, old party that we wanted to have originally, you know, I really miss live music.

Um, so, so dearly and every time I think about it, I just feel this like aching pain in my chest. When is the next time I get to go shake my booty at a music venue? You know, that’s that, that is what’s on my mind these days.

Paul Swearengin: That’s really sad. I mean, we’re all COVID fatigued, but, uh, yeah. To kind of lose your wedding in the midst of that, uh, definitely feel for you guys.

Matt Nicoletti: Yeah.

[00:40:00] Craig Scharton: Father-in-law saved the bank

Matt Nicoletti: and, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He, he’s definitely, you know, silver lining for him and he was cheating too.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. Yeah, I heard, and we’re recording this on November 16th. I heard we’re back into purple today and fairly significantly back into purple. And so schools are in doubt again.

Um, I heard even, uh, curfews could be in the mix, so it’s going to be interesting to see what happens here and makes us wonder if we had taken this a little more seriously early on where we would be today, but.

Matt Nicoletti: Yep. Some decent news with the vaccines, uh, as of late. Um, but if those don’t get deployed, I don’t know.

I might be signing up for Russia’s Sputnik vaccine, um, hilarious name by the way, where they beat us. They beat us with something into orbit and they just tend, they beat us with the vaccine deployment and they use the name Sputnik. Oh, that is [00:41:00] in our face. Just petty there’s there’s there’s really, really petty competitiveness between are the leaders of our nations here these days.

Paul Swearengin: I wonder how brutal they’re approved, you know, their testing and approval processes.

Matt Nicoletti: I think that’s why they beat us is probably not very, they can seem to get volunteers a lot more easily too. I imagined

Paul Swearengin: my volunteer

Matt Nicoletti: here. We don’t call them volunteers here.

Paul Swearengin: More like human lab, rats, perhaps there’s cheese.

Um, yeah,

Craig Scharton: we’re hoping.

Paul Swearengin: What’s on my mind is Tik TOK, man. Do you got you guys big on Tik TOK? I don’t. Maybe you’re maybe your parlor guys. I don’t know. No, no, but, uh, yeah, I delved into the end of the crazy world of Tik TOK and like people dancing and 62nd videos and drinking ocean spray and all of that stuff.

And did a video called why I didn’t vote for Donald [00:42:00] Trump. And that video has now been viewed. 442,000 times. Uh, I went to, uh, I went to bed two weeks ago. I went to bed on Wednesday night with six followers on Tik TOK. I woke up the next morning. I had 2000 followers and as of. Well, as of right now, let me look.

I have 19,200 followers on Tik TOK. So I am, I’m blowing up on Tik TOK right now.

Matt Nicoletti: That is unreal. I haven’t honestly, that’s one that I just haven’t been paying that much attention to. I’ve sort of, I still have my social media accounts, but I’ve like for a number of reasons, sort of abandoned them a few years ago.

So I haven’t really kept up with things, but the virality of that is crazy. Or maybe you just put out. Some really good content there. Paul, I’m going to have to check that out,

Paul Swearengin: check it out. I mean, and so since then now, I mean, I I’m, you know, I do a couple of videos a day and, and some of them, uh, you know, like today [00:43:00] with the one I put out, it’s only gone to 3,569 people.

So that’s a big disappointment because I’ve had others go to 179,000. Uh, 16,800. Anyway, I don’t know it’s so I’m doing this tick-tock pastor thing and it’s kind of taken off and people are liking it. And I, you know, my, I had a friend

Craig Scharton: telling

Paul Swearengin: me and people find you and old pastor Paul is my handle on tic-tacs

Matt Nicoletti: pastor Paul old

Paul Swearengin: pastor Paul.

Yeah. We’ll look at it. My, yeah, my, my social media manager told me this was a couple of years ago and he said, so Facebook is 60. And in a very short time, it’ll be 75. He said, Instagram is 30 in a very short time, it’ll be 50. And he said, Tik TOK is now 16. And in a very short time, it’ll be 25. And so, yeah, I’m trying, I I’ve been wanting to reach a younger audience because shockingly.

Boomers and older Xers like me don’t change their minds very easily or hear differing opinions anymore. So I figured I would [00:44:00] go to tick-tock and try a younger audience and they seem to like it. So it’s

Matt Nicoletti: kind of parameters. So like

Craig Scharton: it’s a, it’s a length of time,

Matt Nicoletti: right?

Paul Swearengin: So you can do a 15 second video or a 62nd video.

And that’s it, which is it’s really fun. Cause you, you have to be very creative, very succinct. You have to know what you’re saying and, but, but you’d be amazed what you can say in 60 seconds. And, uh, and then I’ll tell you it’s crazy, but it’s addicting. You get on it and you just start flipping through.

And the next thing you know, it’s, you know, it’s midnight and you’re like, wow, I’m still flipping through Tik TOK. So it’s, it’s pretty fun.

Craig Scharton: Does it stay up there? Is it like these other things where if you look at it, it’s then gone forever or

Paul Swearengin: no, it stays up there. It stays up forever. The one thing and tick-tock as your lives, don’t stay up.

If you do a live, it, it goes away. It’s just live and then it goes away. But no, the videos stay up there and people continue to, to share them and you can do this thing called a duet. So if you like. Yeah. Like what somebody says, you hit duet and [00:45:00] then it’ll go on your feed and it’ll be your picture while you’re listening to them, do their thing.

And, uh, so that a lot of people find it’s fun to do that. And so then you can promote somebody else’s video and, uh, so yeah, I’ve, I’ve really ended up. Kind of enjoying it. So one of the big ones I did is, uh, I took a scene from West wing and I mouthed Martin Sheen’s words and, uh, and it, it’s now been viewed over 101,000 times.

Matt Nicoletti: All

Craig Scharton: right.

Paul Swearengin: Do you want to see it? I could probably show it to you.

Matt Nicoletti: Yeah, definitely.

Paul Swearengin: Let me see if I can, let me see if I can find it. Yeah. Now that I said that. Okay. Talk amongst yourselves while I,

Craig Scharton: I want you to do one on regenerative ag Paul.

Paul Swearengin: Well, you’ll have to, you’ll have to point me to it. All right.

Let’s see if

Matt Nicoletti: Ben’s volunteering. He’ll be in it too.

Paul Swearengin: Very good. All right, here we go. Here we go. Let me tell me if you can hear this.

Matt Nicoletti: I don’t say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President,

Paul Swearengin: the Bible does.

Matt Nicoletti: Yes, it does. Leviticus

Craig Scharton: 1822

Paul Swearengin: numbers. I wanted to ask you a couple of [00:46:00] questions while I

Matt Nicoletti: had you here.

I’m interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery. A sanctioned in exit is 21 seven, but she’s a Georgetown. Sophomore speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table. When it was her turn, what would a good price for her B while thinking about that? Can I ask another,

Paul Swearengin: my chief of staff,

Matt Nicoletti: Leo McGarry insist on working on the Sabbath.

Exit is 35

Paul Swearengin: to.

Matt Nicoletti: Clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Or is it okay to call the police? Here’s one that’s really important because we’ve got a lot of sports fans in this town touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean Leviticus, 11 seven. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football?

Can Notre Dame, Ken West point

Paul Swearengin: tick-tock. I was right there.

Craig Scharton: All right.

Matt Nicoletti: You’re having

Paul Swearengin: fun. Sorry for the use of the old name of the Washington football team, but Oh yeah,

[00:47:00] but that’s it. You just do something cracky like that and a, and 101,000 people watch it and say, cool,

Matt Nicoletti: fun. What a world.

Craig Scharton: It’s good to see. You’re still stretching and trying new stuff.

Matt Nicoletti: Paul.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah. And by the way, there are like 15 year old girls that just go on and dance for 15 seconds and they get like 98 million followers.

So I’ve got a ways to go to catch up with that.

Craig Scharton: Um, have you danced yet?

Paul Swearengin: I’ve I’ve done a little bit of dancing, but, but very reserved dancing, but, uh, yeah, I celebrated a 10,000 followers with a little dance, so

Craig Scharton: now I have to check in for sure.

Paul Swearengin: All right. Yeah. And by the way, uh, you know, now China has all my private information, but that’s just, I guess, part of the deal you make.

Matt Nicoletti: That’s everybody’s got everybody’s information. Yeah. That ship has sailed.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah,

Matt Nicoletti: I agree.

Paul Swearengin: I watched social dilemma, but I think [00:48:00] that’s the deal we’re like, all right. The privacy thing is over. We’re just going to have to learn to live with it.

Matt Nicoletti: I

Craig Scharton: think the penny Newman would be a good name for a dance.

Matt Nicoletti: Matt penny Newman.

Craig Scharton: That penny Newman

Matt Nicoletti: will go to work on it. I’ll go. I’ve got to work on producing the background music. Okay.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. You’ve got the rhythm. So you got that going

Matt Nicoletti: for you. You said

Craig Scharton: shake, shake your booty earlier. So you know all the cooling

Matt Nicoletti: indeed. Oh, I think that was a pretty old school lingo. There

Paul Swearengin: was old one.

Craig Scharton: I was shaking my

Matt Nicoletti: booty.

Paul Swearengin: Yeah, absolutely. Well awesome. Matt, thanks for coming on and talking a regenerative farming Craig’s favorite, favorite, favorite topic

Craig Scharton: only because it saves the creation that you’re so happy

Matt Nicoletti: that it was created.

Paul Swearengin: Sure. Should we all have our yards analyzed for their soil value or whatever you guys were talking about?

Matt Nicoletti: We’ll do it. Gracias pro bono. So, um, we, yeah, it’s, it’s [00:49:00] a growing trend. Backyard, veggie gardens. So love, it would love to help consumers grow more regenerative nature, just like we’re helping the real pros out there.

Paul Swearengin: So how does somebody get, get you to do that?

Matt Nicoletti: Um, you can go to our website, find information there, submit inquiries, um, and, uh I’ll and Mr.

Tellis may follow up with you directly, personally.

Paul Swearengin: Okay. We’re doing, we’re actually in the midst of a redesign of our backyard right now. So we may, we may need that input.

Matt Nicoletti: Cool.

Craig Scharton: Yeah, I do on that point. I think it’s really important for people, not just to say those farmers ought to do this. It’s something, if you own a plot of land, that’s something we can all do have to just be everyone else should do something different.

We can all we can all chip in and do

Matt Nicoletti: our little part. Yeah. And that’s a big part of the movement too, is creating the intimacy between, you know, the way our food is produced, which we’ve sort of lost over the last couple of generations with the sort of efficient modernization of the food system. So hoping to rebuild that.

Paul Swearengin: So if we [00:50:00] get, if we get rid of our grass, but we don’t want to pave it in though, right? That’s not, that’s not good

Matt Nicoletti: that well, There’s not a whole lot of options you have at that point.

Craig Scharton: Yeah. That would be a very slow regenerative

Matt Nicoletti: process.

Paul Swearengin: All right guys. Good stuff. Great

Matt Nicoletti: talking to you. Thanks for having me.

All right.

Craig Scharton: Thanks Matt.

Matt Nicoletti: Keep up the good work.

Paul Swearengin: Appreciate it. And thanks to everybody listening on Facebook. Always a pleasure. Correct.

Craig Scharton: You too, Paul. Thanks for putting up with my, uh, regenerative ag passion.

Longing to Belong: A Conversation About a Book and a Calling Dec 03, 2020

Shawna Marie Bryant. Fresno Author.

Propositions Anyone? Can We Disagree and Still Discuss? Oct 06, 2020

Paul and Craig talk with Guillermo Moreno and Stacy Williams who represent opposite sides of the political spectrum and have a reasonable, non-combative discussion about the propositions on California’s ballot.

Climate Change and Christians: Science? or Heresy? Oct 02, 2020

Paul and Craig talk with Former pastor Tom Cotter and current minister Tyron Carter, two Christians who are committed to fighting climate change and stewarding well the planet.

Paul and Craig Debrief about the President’s Sanity and the Danger of At Home Schooling Sep 13, 2020

Listen to Paul and Craig Debrief from July 27.

Two Guys Talk About The Importance of the Local Newspaper Sep 13, 2020

Local news papers are disappearing across the country. Paul Myers of the Tulare Sun-Gazette discusses this issue with Paul and Craig. The video version of this podcast is currently available only to our Patreon Subscribers at Patreon.com/TwoGuysFresno.

Two Guys Process Together Aug 11, 2020

Paul and Craig discuss the happenings in the world in a recent Facebook Live.

The Two Guys Talk Regenerative Farming Aug 11, 2020

The Two Guys Talk to City Council Member-Elect Tyler Maxwell Jul 15, 2020

The Two Guys, Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talk to Fresno’s newest City Council member (to be, come January 2021, Tyler Maxwell of Fresno’s District 4.

Two Guys Talk Software with Local Business Leader Tim Goetz of Aplos Jul 02, 2020

Tim Goetz

Aplos

Derek Scharton

The Well Community Church

Fund Accounting

Every Neighborhood Partnership

Neighborhood Thrift

Sermon Spice

Know Your Guest

Habitat for Humanity Fresno

Dan Kimball

How to start a nonprofit.?

What’s On Your Mind?

Out of town tree trimmers!

Cow Lasso

13^th (Show on Netflix)

———————-

TRANSCRIPT (Transcribed by AI, so not 100% accurate:)

060820_TimGoetz

[00:00:00] [00:00:00] Two Guys Open: [00:00:00] this is the two guys talking Fresno podcast, the podcast with two guys talking about Fresno. Your hosts are Craig Chardan, a lifelong Fresno who loves his community, even though it drives him bonkers. And Paul square gin, a transplant for us nun. Who’s lived in Fresno for more years than he has it. And he wouldn’t live anywhere else.
[00:00:24] It’s time for two guys to talk. Fresno. Here’s Craig and Paul on the two guys talking Fresno podcast.
[00:00:32]Paul Swearengin: [00:00:32] All right. And we’re still a social distancing and, and working through zoom here. And hi, Craig, how are you today?
[00:00:40] Craig Scharton: [00:00:40] Good, Paul, how are you?
[00:00:41] Paul Swearengin: [00:00:41] Good. Has the governor allowed us to come? I mean, when are we going to be able to see each other face to face and do this?
[00:00:48]Craig Scharton: [00:00:48] well, I think we probably could. I think we’re essential.
[00:00:56] Paul Swearengin: [00:00:56] True enough.
[00:00:56] Craig Scharton: [00:00:56] I am. I am still the, although I’m a little less [00:01:00] conservative about it than I was, but I’m still being pretty darn careful. Cause I don’t want to get this thing, but,
[00:01:06] Paul Swearengin: [00:01:06] it’s a weird, it’s a weird space. I I’ve I’ve had people ask me to meet out and I’ve said no, thus far until Wednesday, I’m going to have my first.
[00:01:16] Lunch date in a while, and I’m still a little freaked out by it. I’m not sure exactly what it’s going to look like, but I’m going to venture out and try it. And I think my son’s going to start baseball practice this week. So it just, it feels still a little odd to be thinking about life.
[00:01:34] Craig Scharton: [00:01:34] Yeah. Well, and I, you know, as we’ve talked about it, I’m a little bit on the, a little bit age sides, definitely asthma and all of that.
[00:01:41] So I’m, I’m gonna. I’m going to play it a little more, or probably quite a bit more defensively than, than I would. We were talking about that. If I were 32, I’d probably be first one at the pub or whatever. Nothing can hurt me.
[00:01:59] Paul Swearengin: [00:01:59] I’m looking [00:02:00] forward to face to face meetings. Cause I am kind of tired of zoom meetings, but now I got to start thinking in terms of drive time again, and I’ve totally lost.
[00:02:09] All sense of drive time around meetings. So it’s going to, I’m going to have to readjust to that.
[00:02:14] Tim Goetz: [00:02:14] Well, with
[00:02:15] Craig Scharton: [00:02:15] my computers I’ve and zoom I’ve realized that I still have to get to my meetings 10 minutes early. It’s just like when I was driving, just to make sure the damn things up and up and zoom lets me end up my own meetings and all of that.
[00:02:30] Paul Swearengin: [00:02:30] I think one thing that’s going to be interesting as I is, is truly the, the, the protests, have not been socially distanced as we’ve seen. And, and I even heard some. Some leaders in the black community saying over the weekend, like, Hey, don’t forget your masks. Don’t forget to try it as social distance as you can.
[00:02:49] So it’s be interesting to see if we have some spikes that come out of, out of protest and we pray not, but it’ll be interesting to see in a couple of weeks, if there are numbers on that.
[00:03:01] [00:03:00] Craig Scharton: [00:03:01] Well, I’m just, when I do meet with people it’s outside, I, I do feel a lot safer.
[00:03:06] Paul Swearengin: [00:03:06] Yeah, that’s a, that’s a big thing, but yeah, I mean, pro sports are gonna start up again without crowds, I guess.
[00:03:14] And so we’re just gonna start feeling our way back into this thing. And as I’ve talked to people in healthcare, you know, they kind of say this yet, some points you gotta be exposed at some point, we have to have that, that herd immunity and find out if we have it or not. And so I guess we’re just leaning into that a little bit.
[00:03:31] Craig Scharton: [00:03:31] Yeah, well, the Oakland A’s are way ahead of the curve playing without crowds for decades.
[00:03:39] Paul Swearengin: [00:03:39] Yeah. Well introduce our guests.
[00:03:41] Craig Scharton: [00:03:41] I love the can. I’ve been to their games when they were in 2000 people in the stands
[00:03:47] Paul Swearengin: [00:03:47] you can kid because you love.
[00:03:49] Craig Scharton: [00:03:49] Exactly. Tim gets is our guest booth. That’s a little bit of a tongue
[00:03:54] Tim Goetz: [00:03:54] twister.
[00:03:55] Craig Scharton: [00:03:55] It’s the CEO of Apple close, which is a, [00:04:00] locally headquartered technology company. And just for disclaimer purposes, my brother, works for and that had absolutely no bearing on us, getting to him or, even thinking about it until I. So I’m yesterday and went, Oh yeah, I should tell you we’re here having them on the show tomorrow.
[00:04:18] So, I don’t think he has a razor, a bonus coming because he’s talking to Fresno podcast. That’s
[00:04:28] Paul Swearengin: [00:04:28] good to see you too.
[00:04:30] Craig Scharton: [00:04:30] Yeah. Tell us about, we’ll ask you about yourself in a little bit, but, how did you come up with the idea for and tell us what you guys do. All right.
[00:04:39] Tim Goetz: [00:04:39] Yeah. Thanks. yeah, so, I, I, it starts kind of back in, 2008, 2009.
[00:04:46] I was the executive pastor at the well community church. And, we were using QuickBooks for our accounting, and in the church and nonprofit space, you have to do your accounting a specific way. You have to do fund accounting. [00:05:00] So you can track that money separately. and, you know, my background isn’t in is accounting.
[00:05:05] I’m a CPA. And, we always struggled to get the reports out of QuickBooks that we needed. and, at one point I, I knew it was, we needed to do fund accounting. And so I started searching for fund accounting software. And, the only thing I could find back then does a product by Blackbaud called financial edge.
[00:05:25] It was. A desk, it was a down, it was a product where you to host your own servers and put it on your servers. And it was tens of thousands of dollars and it just was not realistic for a church or most nonprofits to it stopped. And, my, my assistant at the time at the church was. A lady named Darlene Hanson.
[00:05:45]she was, Eric Hansen’s is Eric. Cancer’s his wife. And she would come in and put up with me at the office for, you know, 20 hours, 30 hours a week. And so I asked her, I said, Hey, can I can’t find anything? Can you help find something? And she [00:06:00] says, she comes in to report that weeks later. I, I can’t find anything.
[00:06:04] And I said, my reaction was, man. Eventually someone’s going to do something about that. and I’m an entrepreneur. I love starting things. I love blazing new trail. I, I have a CPA license, but I am, I, I enjoy risk. so I, you know, that was my comment. And I guess she went home and told doc, you know, Eric and at a staff retreat at the well, Eric one point corners me at a dinner and says, Hey, that software thing, you should do it.
[00:06:37] I’m like what, what software thing? And he says the accounting software thing. The thing that Darlene told me about I’m like, Eric, I just, I don’t want to do anything about it. I was just complaining about it.
[00:06:51] Paul Swearengin: [00:06:51] Isn’t that the way isn’t that our way, just let me complain.
[00:06:55] Tim Goetz: [00:06:55] Right? So he goes, no, really you should do it all.
[00:06:59] I’ll [00:07:00] help fund it and you do it and we’ll figure it out from there. And I’m like, ah, and this is how naive I was on the technology side of things. I have, my response was Eric, it could cost like a hundred thousand dollars. We’re like, yeah. We’re like, yeah, we’re, we’re, we’re a little beyond that at this point of investment, into building a software, you know?
[00:07:20] So. anyhow, I, I started thinking, man, well, shoot, I guess I need to look at this maybe through a different lens. Like, are there, is there really nobody out there and how many pages back to that quick on Google. And so I started looking at it and I wanted to build a easy to use fund accounting product for the nonprofit space.
[00:07:42] So Apolis means simple in Greek. We wanted it to be easy to use. Accounting is scary and. Most nonprofits don’t have an accountant doing their books. It’s a, it’s a volunteer, it’s a, a business savvy or administrative type brain person. [00:08:00] and it’s just, it’s just scary. So we wanted to create something easy to use.
[00:08:04]it doesn’t have to be scary. It doesn’t have to say debits and credits, you know, but we wanted to do it for the nonprofit space. Built for nonprofits is fund accounting. and it was about that time that, both E every neighborhood partnership and neighborhood thrifts got started, and those guys were setting that up and they’re asking me, Hey, well, so what should we use for our County software?
[00:08:24] And I’m, I’m like quick, I think, like you might run into problems later, and I’m not, I’m going to move away from it, but I don’t know what else to suggest, you know? And so. that kind of solidified it. we started the company in April of 2009 and God going. So that was kind of how it got started quickly evolved from there, from an accounting product.
[00:08:50] I mean, we, we launched, we end up launching the web based product in may of 2011 and it was a free trial. It was first to market [00:09:00] as far as web based. in fund accounting, even QuickBooks online, hadn’t really gone mainstream yet that took zero entering the space to do that, to, to make them do that. and, but as soon as we launched, we started getting customers and, I, I called, I’ll never forget.
[00:09:17] Well, you know, I had to write, I had to write down these tickets and the ticket basically is what the engineer then takes bill writing tickets. Like I’m full time job. I’m working at the well. And so nights and weekends for two years, right? It was after, right. How do you mean bill the accounting software button when you click it?
[00:09:38] What does it do? You know? And I’d explain it to, you know, non accountants it’s this is what you need to do, you know? And I I’ll never forget. I was up late one night. It was probably, you know, it was probably. One in the morning, Pacific time and we get an email, and it was, you know, from PayPal, you have [00:10:00] cash and I’m like, how did this person find us?
[00:10:03] This was like our second or third customer. And there’s a phone number on there. I’m like, You Google app Los software and we wouldn’t even show up if you searched her own name, how did he find us? So I can’t help it. I just want to know in the morning I’m calling this guy. And so I titled the number and I was calling Ohio.
[00:10:24] So it was three in the morning. And, the guy whispers and answer he’s like, hello? And I’m like, I am so sorry. I’m so sorry. Hi, my name is Tim I’m from app loafs. I have a question for you in the guy who starts laughing hysterically. Any other end? He’s like your support is incredible. I literally just bought the product
[00:10:52] and anyhow, he was depressed. Yeah, right. So he was doing his giving statements at the end of the year. And he [00:11:00] was up at three in the morning because he was using QuickBooks and they don’t do that. And he was fed up. He said, I’m not going to bed until I find a replacement for this next year, because I’m not doing this again next year.
[00:11:11] So that, that was one of our first customers.
[00:11:13] Paul Swearengin: [00:11:13] And when was this?
[00:11:15] Tim Goetz: [00:11:15] That was, that would have been in 2009 11. So we launched a web based product and in may of 2011, And, we also very quickly found out that the, these, the customers are not just looking for accounting software. They, they, at the end of the year they ask, where do I print my contribution statements for my donors?
[00:11:36] It’s like, well, that’s not really an accounting thing. That’s a CRM thing like that has all their people and their addresses. Which you don’t do in your accounting product, but they were expecting it to be in there. And so we added it, and then they wanted to be able to key in their donations, not just the accounting transactions.
[00:11:54] And so we added it and they wanted to process money online, so they didn’t have to just record them. [00:12:00] But they could actually process them. And so we added that and then it kind of went from there. At this point, it’s a full, we have a, it’s a full platform. So we do everything, end to end. We do. on the back offices, it’s accounting software.
[00:12:15] We have an e-file product where we are authorized IRS IPAL providers. We filed taxes with the IRS. They’re nine nineties, on the front office. We do fundraising software that can process money. We do event registration, pledge tracking. we host their website. We have a DIY website and an email campaign thing.
[00:12:34] And beauty is it’s all in one. So. They don’t have to try and get QuickBooks to play nice with PayPal and constant contact and Wix. And it just all works.
[00:12:45] Paul Swearengin: [00:12:45] This is crazy. Like, how did I not know this? As you know, this I’ve been in the space until 2019, I was leading a church and we were cursing QuickBooks every year.
[00:12:55] How did I not know this? This is crazy. Well, this is amazing. Yeah. [00:13:00] And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked to them. To the Intuit people and said, do you realize how many churches there are in America and this, but they just, they already owned that space, I guess. So they didn’t have to be innovative.
[00:13:12] And so this is amazing that you found that that space to fill because there’s a lot of, not only a lot of churches, but a lot of and such out there, so bully for you. And I, I wish I had known earlier.
[00:13:27] Craig Scharton: [00:13:27] When I was an interim CEO at the downtown partnership, they didn’t have a database. And so, you know, I searched and looked for databases and, and, and the same kind of thing.
[00:13:41] I couldn’t find one that really worked for what we did. And, and there are, you know, how many cities in the country that have downtowns, they all have associations. They have. I can San Diego, they have 17 associations for their revitalization programs. I think Boston has [00:14:00] 60, something like that. And, and there was nothing tailored to the, the market.
[00:14:06] It was just crazy. And you just assume that these things are out
[00:14:09] Tim Goetz: [00:14:09] there, cause
[00:14:10] Craig Scharton: [00:14:10] the pain is big enough to
[00:14:12] Tim Goetz: [00:14:12] right.
[00:14:13] Craig Scharton: [00:14:13] Cause you weren’t trying to do it that you think it’s out there and it wasn’t. So someone has to follow through
[00:14:19] beyond the complaint.
[00:14:21] Tim Goetz: [00:14:21] Yeah. It’s been tough. I mean, we, you know, one of our challenges, I mean, we have a lot of customers in, in Fresno and in the Valley, but, I think we’re you know, a good secret also like, and I kind of blame that on our, our business model, the business strategy. I mean, we wanted to launch when it first launched it $11 and 99 cents a month, you know, I mean, it was, we wanted this thing to be low cost and for the smallest entities to be able to do this thing and with, with a product like that, the business model doesn’t justify a sales model.
[00:14:57] You have to, it has to be [00:15:00] automated. It has to be. And so we got really good at the weekends, the funnel. So our funnel, our funnel metrics and our unit economics. And it’s the only way that business could have ever got off the ground is if you’re going to, you know, if your revenue from a customer is $12 in a month, how much can you spend.
[00:15:19] Notifying the world that you exist to get that customer. and so we got, we got pretty good at that, but that meant it was digital marketing. It was not, you know, door to door. It wasn’t events, it wasn’t, you know? And so, yeah, it’s funny. We, we’ve got about, we’re about 8,000. most of them are in the U S but we have, we have customers in about 60 other countries.
[00:15:42]and so, I mean, we’re, we’re kind of all over the place and best kept secret in Fresno.
[00:15:50] We’re going to try to change that.
[00:15:54] Paul Swearengin: [00:15:54] Well, my mind is racing now, cause I know there’s tons of networks of churches out there and things. And so [00:16:00] there’s, there’s gotta be ways to connect them. But how so, how did you fund the, this more than $100,000 startup costs here?
[00:16:09] Tim Goetz: [00:16:09] Yeah. So, you know, honestly, Eric Hanson has been kind of my angel investor and this thing would not exist without him. And, he’s just been an amazing. Kind of mentor and support and partner. but ultimately we, we did, he did that first a hundred thousand and that quickly got you, you know, and
[00:16:29] Paul Swearengin: [00:16:29] burn through that.
[00:16:32] Tim Goetz: [00:16:32] And that’s in that also as well. It took so long to get going. I mean, it took two years and, once we got going, once we started to get customers, I call the Hanson and. He had been, you know, kind of aware and in the loop for those two years and watching us work. And, I got to know him very well and he got to know, and, I call him at one point and said, Hey, we are, we think it’s time to give this thing a go.
[00:16:55] And instead of it being a hobby on the nights and weekends and. I [00:17:00] want to ask your permission to raise around or to try to cause you’ll dilute, like I’ll D we will I’ll dilute. So I’d like your blessing on it. And he says, okay, how much, how much are you going to try and raise? And I said, one point $2 million.
[00:17:15] I said, I need, I need 50 grand a month for 24 months. I need two years to get this thing going. And this was in, December of 2011. And so he, He says, he says, okay, sounds good. I think I can do that. And I’m like, like what, like, do you, what do you mean? Like, what are the words that you’re saying mean?
[00:17:42] And so, he says, no, I think, I think I can do that. And I’m like, Eric, like, do you want to see a business plan? Like, do you have been seen, this is all on the phone. Migos, Tim. I know you, and I know you well enough to know if you’re thinking this is what we should do. I want to be, I want to be in on it.
[00:17:59] And [00:18:00] so that, that got us going. We opened our office here in Fresno. and that was our first couple of employees. And that’s when I first found, Derek Chardin. Yeah, I was, there are not many Java engineers in Fresno and definitely were even fewer in 2012, you know, and Derek was one of them. And, so that’s when I started, you know, hanging out with Derek and getting to be buddies with him.
[00:18:24] And, ultimately we got going 2012 and, kind of never looked back. We, we raised one other round in 2016. other than that, we just kind of doing it on our own budget.
[00:18:37] Paul Swearengin: [00:18:37] So your timing has to be incredible here. I would think because I think we’re seeing a shift. In the church world, particularly, I know everybody’s trying to move that giving online and into that automated giving and all of those good things.
[00:18:55] And so it seems like you’ve hit at the right time with a, with a [00:19:00] good, a good product that people are looking for in this kind of shift, season that we’re in.
[00:19:05] Tim Goetz: [00:19:05] Yeah, it’s been, that’s been interesting. We weren’t sure what was going to happen. I think kinda like everybody, there was just a lot of unknowns in mid March and it was like, w which way is up?
[00:19:16] Are we going to be okay? What’s happening here? And, so we were monitoring everything very closely and, as we went to shelter in place as a company, it was. It’s like, man, hang on, let’s see where this is going. And what happened was kind of a surprise. But, we had, we had about a thousand customers, a dog.
[00:19:37] I thought that they were using us for other products turn on or online giving product and start using that and turn and about a thousand turn on our text to give product. So we have the text to give option as well. And that’s how a lot of churches are ending. They’re ending their services. Now it’s an online service.
[00:19:52] And they end it with their phone number, say, okay, texts, we can’t pass a plate. So yeah. And then from there that can make it recurring and, [00:20:00] and we’re kind of lucky to have that product already live and ready to accept it. Here’s a thousand customers into it. and we, we then tried to rush out another product when all of everything was starting to shut down.
[00:20:13] It was a. A mass communication tool, we call it bulk texting and it’s a mass SMS product where these churches can, we’re able to basically say, Hey, we’re not going to have our services Sunday. Yeah. Texted out instead of email. Okay. So we we’ve got a number of products there, but the, there, there was a big shift online giving, And the other thing that happened for us at least, was it was it’s what I’ll call maybe the late adopters of cloud soft cloud accounting.
[00:20:44] So there were a lot of folks that were still on desks, top QuickBooks, and that top computer, where it was on was at their office and they’re not there anymore. And so there was an influx of folks also shopping for, to finally make that move to the cloud for their, [00:21:00] their books.
[00:21:02] Craig Scharton: [00:21:02] So what’s it like having a software company in Fresno?
[00:21:05] We used to have a software cluster. We called it
[00:21:09] Tim Goetz: [00:21:09] an
[00:21:09] Craig Scharton: [00:21:09] industry cluster and there were a few, but still not that many. Yeah. And it’s really great to see. So w but do you find the people that you need and how was
[00:21:22] Tim Goetz: [00:21:22] that? That, you know, it. It is, it’s been tough. you know, I, I, I really enjoy it. Like I said, I was like blazing new ground.
[00:21:31] I’m not afraid of risk. I’m not afraid of a challenge. and I, I think one thing that it gives us is, you know, we have a team of folks that I have a little bit of something to prove and a little bit of a chip on her shoulders. And I, I think that combination is, is. He’s deadly to our competitors.
[00:21:51] That’s what we want to do. But yeah, I don’t, it was, it was hard. I mean, it was hard, especially in the early years. I think, it was hard [00:22:00] finding folks. it was hard and not just, not just software engineers, but technology, company employees. So our marketing staff. Need to know how to market software through it, funnel where you’re driving traffic and free trials, and you’re wet.
[00:22:17] You’re split testing your website for free trial website conversion rate. You know, like that’s not a normal marketing theme. or at least it wasn’t. And same with the sales. Like the sales team had to sell something that you can’t hold and that’s just, that’s just not normal for the Valley. So it was hard to find it was hard to find people, We, we kind of just, it was then where we were not going to give up and we were going to make it happen.
[00:22:41]and I think at this point, we have about 85 employees. and I think at this point we’ve got a good, we have a really good group. I’m very pleased with the team that we have. And, what’s started to happen now is several things. I’d say one of them is. [00:23:00] Our, our team’s network is just that much bigger.
[00:23:03] So it’s a little easier to say, Oh, so-and-so knows. So and so, you know, and find people, we, we really like hiring people that way instead of just a, kind of a mass blast. but then it’s also easier to train up people. So, actually Derek, does something at the office, or at least when we were at the office office a couple of times a week, bill basically.
[00:23:25] Turn everything off. And I think it’s at four 30, and he’ll do Java classes with everybody, anyone that wants to be there. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a software engineer or not. It doesn’t matter if it’s a front end guy or back in guy, and it’s just, here’s a class. And so we’re kind of raising up our own folks.
[00:23:41]and then there’s also this other stuff that’s happening in Fresno with Jake and Irma Bitwise and the other tech companies that are starting here. have also started seeding that same kind of thing, which has made it easier to find folks, but it was hard. It was hard in 2009, 2010, 2011. That [00:24:00] was, those were hard times.
[00:24:01] Paul Swearengin: [00:24:01] Do you know the sermon spice guys?
[00:24:04] Tim Goetz: [00:24:04] Yeah, I do. yep.
[00:24:06] Paul Swearengin: [00:24:06] George 10 pounds.
[00:24:07] Tim Goetz: [00:24:07] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So that’s another,
[00:24:10] Paul Swearengin: [00:24:10] it’s another church company in town, Craig that I, they, they do content for, you know, videos and things like that. People can send their videos and sell them through there. And so that’s another Fresno software sort of church.
[00:24:24] Aimed or not for profit aimed group there.
[00:24:27] Craig Scharton: [00:24:27] Yup. You just find that the agnostics never used any software.
[00:24:36] Paul Swearengin: [00:24:36] Well, there’s not there’s I don’t know if there’s
[00:24:38] Tim Goetz: [00:24:38] a ton
[00:24:38] Craig Scharton: [00:24:38] of other, we never have a convention. We never,
[00:24:42] Paul Swearengin: [00:24:42] there, there’s not a lot of other industries outside the church industry that gather hundreds of people every week. So it’s a pretty good, pretty good crop out there.
[00:24:51] Tim Goetz: [00:24:51] Yeah, we, and we’ve got a pretty good smattering across the nonprofit space we have about, you know, maybe 50% of our customers are [00:25:00] churches.
[00:25:00]about 40% are generic, just nonprofits and they span. The gamut of what a nonprofit is. I mean, the entire thing, and then we have about 10% that are member based entities. So this like clubs or rotary or lions. Yeah. Associations. So, and then we’ve got a product for them as well, to be able to have a group in boat on things and do fundraisers and that type of
[00:25:24] Craig Scharton: [00:25:24] well.
[00:25:25] So it’s, it amazes me really how people don’t really understand what economic development is.
[00:25:34] Tim Goetz: [00:25:34] Hmm.
[00:25:35] Craig Scharton: [00:25:35] And, and, you know, if you were to have like a hierarchy of the most important piece, it is what you do. It is people that develop something in our economy, our local economy that are servicing people away and they’re sending them onto our Island.
[00:25:53] Tim Goetz: [00:25:53] Right.
[00:25:53] Craig Scharton: [00:25:53] And, you know, we think about, Oh, you know, well, let’s build an, a big distribution center for some company [00:26:00] that’s located somewhere else and we’ll get jobs. What jobs are good. But ultimately you’ve got to have someone bring in revenue onto the, the Island for it to circulate, to do all those other things.
[00:26:12] So, you know, my, my plead to the community is if you are on a board of a nonprofit or a church, or, you know, someone who is, and we all do, I mean, pretty much everyone knows someone in the church or a nonprofit, like there should be a hundred percent of the
[00:26:30] Tim Goetz: [00:26:30] locals.
[00:26:31] Craig Scharton: [00:26:31] Using your service because ultimately that is going to change our, all of our economic trajectory.
[00:26:38] Right. I’d like to see some gigantic building downtown with Apolis across the top, because you just have so many customers. Right. You know, that that could work because when I drive to other cities or fly into other cities, that’s what I see when I go to those places. And corporate giving is more where you’re headquartered.
[00:26:58] So QuickBooks is giving way [00:27:00] more, more to Cleveland than they are to Fresno. Right. I don’t blame him. I love Cleveland, but, You know, it’s just, just the way it works. And, you know, we have no fortune 1000 companies in the Valley and we don’t even know how badly that affects our economy. Cause if you have a fortune 1000 company, they are spinning off just in case catering, you know, or just in video production or.
[00:27:26] All of these ancillary things and we can’t have that unless, and
[00:27:31] Tim Goetz: [00:27:31] people
[00:27:31] Paul Swearengin: [00:27:31] and the support industries tend to come around those. Right? Correct.
[00:27:34] Craig Scharton: [00:27:34] Yeah. And they say, yeah. And then employees will spin off like Dell as fun off thousands of. Of companies in Austin. so you’re not really there’s there’s are we forget about, we have a role in, in doing and growing our economy.
[00:27:49] We think it should be a person in that city, but it’s really up to all of us to make sure that we’re spreading the word and that your local base
[00:27:58] Tim Goetz: [00:27:58] is covered. You [00:28:00] know,
[00:28:00] Craig Scharton: [00:28:00] we, we all need to be your champions.
[00:28:02] Tim Goetz: [00:28:02] I, I believe
[00:28:04] Paul Swearengin: [00:28:04] what do you think, Tim? The applesauce building downtown. You ready?
[00:28:08] Tim Goetz: [00:28:08] Heck. Yeah, man. I just need that fortune 1000.
[00:28:10] Just give me, give my team a couple more years. All right.
[00:28:14] Paul Swearengin: [00:28:14] Very good. Let me hit one of these things here
[00:28:16] Two Guys Open: [00:28:16] now on two guys talking for us. Now it’s time to know your guest
[00:28:21] Paul Swearengin: [00:28:21] time to know our guest.
[00:28:23] Craig Scharton: [00:28:23] Know who the heck are you?
[00:28:26] Tim Goetz: [00:28:26] I’m Tim.
[00:28:28] Craig Scharton: [00:28:28] Where’d you grow up?
[00:28:30] Paul Swearengin: [00:28:30] And what high school did you go to
[00:28:33] Craig Scharton: [00:28:33] high school? Did you go to, if, if we know that one and tell us about your family and all of that good stuff.
[00:28:38] Tim Goetz: [00:28:38] Alright. Yeah. So I was born and raised in Tilbury. so I went up through the culinary schools, at least just before high school. So I went to garden elementary in live Oak middle school and to Larry. And then, just before high school, my family moved down to orange County. So I went to, we went from Tilbury to Irvine and it was, [00:29:00] there was a culture shock there.
[00:29:01]but, I went to university high school in Irvine. and then, shortly after finishing high school to me, the Valley was home and all my, my extended family were, are from mostly from Dinuba and Reedley and this area. And so. shortly after high school, I moved back up here and went to Fresno state and then in this area ever since.
[00:29:22] So, got my accounting degree at Fresno state. and, ultimately, met my wife here. she played soccer at Fresno state state. She was on the soccer team. got married, been married about 13 years and we’ve got four kids, so I’ve got four daughters.
[00:29:40] Paul Swearengin: [00:29:40] Wow. Wow.
[00:29:42] Tim Goetz: [00:29:42] That’s like the Yahtzee over here. so is there a three, five, 10 and 11?
[00:29:48] Paul Swearengin: [00:29:48] Oh my goodness. You’ve had quite a busy household over the last
[00:29:51] Tim Goetz: [00:29:51] three months. Oh my goodness. Right?
[00:29:54] Paul Swearengin: [00:29:54] Yep. That is amazing. So how did you end up at the well then?
[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Tim Goetz: [00:30:00] Yeah, so, that was about, I, let’s see, I finished school in 2003 and, I was living in these apartments Jackson park place to up at Herndon and Cedar.
[00:30:11] And, we ended up having, I ended up having a ton of friends there, anytime an apartment would open up. We would ask the property manager to hold it and we would fill it. So we ended up having 16 apartments or friends, you know, and, yeah, that was a, just a big kind of college group. And, that was about the time, you know, Brad was getting going college, you know, that spinning Northwest service off.
[00:30:32] And, I remember getting invited to kind of one of the early ones, early services at the well, and I attended there. you know, I think, how I ended up working there. I, I, I, I always worked with my hands, so I was worked at a hardware store through high school and did construction through college.
[00:30:49] And, I got my accounting degree, just daydreaming of working in the air conditioning and, out of, out of college. I ended up getting a job. I was an auditor at Deloitte and Touche [00:31:00] for a couple of years here in Fresno and I have the air conditioning and, something was missing. And so I talked to Brad and, he, he thought with my background in construction, he got me connected with Tony Miranda habitat.
[00:31:13] So I started going down to habitat. I was every Saturday for three years and I would drag as many dudes as I could with me out there. And. I, you know, that’s just what I did to kind of continue to work with my hands on the weekends and Deloitte it in the, during the week. And that was also in the nonprofit space.
[00:31:31] And, at one point, you know, I, the well was going to do a missions trip to Laos and it was a roofing project. And so Brad, he knew me. He just knew that I was. This habitat for humanity guy that would drag a bunch of dudes to go do roofs and habitat. And so he asked if I would go on this roofing project trip, which I did.
[00:31:51] And, getting back from that, he said, you know, he said, Hey, he may be, do you want to come and be our missions guy part time? And [00:32:00] so I ended up taking it. I, and that’s, you know, about the time I, that’s what I meant already for the, And, some other folks that were kind of missional in the city at that point in time.
[00:32:09] And, that’s how I kinda ended up, ended up at the, well, I it’s, it was funny. There is, I was, I was a CPA, a business minded guy. I don’t know that I would consider myself a pastor and here I am the missions guy. And at some point it was shortly after there. The well, bought that, the North campus and maple and knees, and it was a big construction project was the start of it.
[00:32:30] So they, well. Tim do you want to run our construction project? And we can do with volunteers and like, sure. So I did that and, the well grew very quickly and it was time to hire a facility guide now that we have a building and Tim knows the facilities. So maybe they report to Tim, the missions guy. And, then it came time to hire an accountants on staff and I’m like, Hey, do you want, would you like help interviewing somebody?
[00:32:55] And they’re like, why would we have the construction? Fishing sky helped with the interview. And, [00:33:00] so anyhow, I, it was kind of a funny back entrance there, but, I enjoyed working with Brad and, we were a lot alike and, and, and, he, at some point it was just a good fit and, executive pastor there for about four or five years after that.
[00:33:18] Craig Scharton: [00:33:18] That’s great. Hey, so, Paul and I noticed that there was an article in the business journal, I think just today. I think when I started the email, what was, what was that about?
[00:33:29] Tim Goetz: [00:33:29] Yeah. So, you know, we’re trying to, you know, figure out how can we help. and I think a lot of people are doing that in, the churches in the nonprofit space were hit pretty hard with the COBIT and the shelter in place, not being able to have services on the churches and the nonprofits.
[00:33:47] Aren’t able to have their fundraising events or meet with people and, and. And kind of stay engaged with their donors. and so, one of the things we thought is, man, what if we, kind of give away the software, [00:34:00] until things are a little different and hopefully better. so we went out and said, Hey, how about if it’s a dollar a month?
[00:34:05]and then after a few months, out in the future, hopefully things are different at that point in time, you can choose whether or not you can afford it at that point and want to become a customer. Or, or not, you’re only in it $3 at that point. if it’s, if it’s still hard and it was still hard, reach out to us, and we’ll take care of you.
[00:34:23] So that’s kinda been our approach since the beginning. so yeah, it’s a dollar a month, for the platform and that’s basically everything. there’s a couple of add ons that typically cost extra. And examples of that is our texting, given our bulk texting products. And so those were saying. Hey, those are also free for the next three months.
[00:34:44] If you sign up at this thing, that’s a dollar, there’s no commitments. If, if they, you know, if it’s not a fit or there’s just really no commitment, either on their end, it’s pay $3 and get to use it and see if it’ll help. And if not, then that’s okay.
[00:34:59] Craig Scharton: [00:34:59] I [00:35:00] noticed too, you have a really good program on how to start a nonprofit.
[00:35:04] I saw Dan Kimball posted that one time and I took a look at it and I was really well done. Yeah, anyone out there that’s thinking about starting, it is just, you know, a step by step, easy thing you can do in a relatively short amount of time.
[00:35:22] Tim Goetz: [00:35:22] I thought that was great. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve tried to put out some content there on starting a nonprofit.
[00:35:27] And how do you build a business plan for a nonprofit and how do you fundraise Dan? Campbell’s helped us with a lot of those fundraising kind of tips and videos and content. There’s some good stuff out there
[00:35:38] Paul Swearengin: [00:35:38] on your side. It’s a, you’ve got sports organizations, PTA homeowner’s association. So there, there are a lot of different genres that you’re reaching out
[00:35:48] Tim Goetz: [00:35:48] to there.
[00:35:50] That’s right. Yeah. We’ve got, we’ve got animal shelters. We have cities, city governments that use us, anyone that can use fund accounting software. so yeah, we, we spend the whole, the whole gamut.
[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Paul Swearengin: [00:36:00] So if somebody wants to do the dollar a month thing, how do they get your real quick while we’re around that subject?
[00:36:04] Tim Goetz: [00:36:04] Yeah, just head to the website. It’s apple.com and click the start a pretrial. It’s a 15 day free trial. And then once you’re in the software, there’s a button that says, Hey, I’d like to do this for a dollar a month and you click that and then that’s it. It logs that you’re now that’s your rate for three months.
[00:36:22]cancel any time and if not, then enter a card and keep going.
[00:36:27] Craig Scharton: [00:36:27] Well, I think there, I mean, there’s just no, excuse, all of our local guys need to be signing up. I mean, just, you know, it’s like, I went into one of our economic development agencies and they weren’t carrying local coffee and I’m like, okay, you gotta do better than this, my God to like, I mean, and if one thing that, you know, the coven situation pointed out is, you know, if you’re outsourcing everything.
[00:36:53] You know, that supply can be disrupted and, and, then you don’t have anyone who could make medicine or [00:37:00] coffee or whatever
[00:37:01] Paul Swearengin: [00:37:01] you’re saying. We should eat local as we go back out to restaurants. Craig
[00:37:05] Craig Scharton: [00:37:05] absolutely locally owned.
[00:37:07] Paul Swearengin: [00:37:07] What if now what if a local guy owns a franchise though? Aren’t we
[00:37:11] Craig Scharton: [00:37:11] great.
[00:37:11] Paul Swearengin: [00:37:11] Okay.
[00:37:13] Craig Scharton: [00:37:13] That’s that’s a good thing.
[00:37:14] Paul Swearengin: [00:37:14] So we can do that then. Cause, like, I know, I know the people that own Coldstone, so we can go to Coldstone then.
[00:37:20] Craig Scharton: [00:37:20] Well, it’s better. It’s better to go to the full
[00:37:23] Tim Goetz: [00:37:23] local ownership. Okay.
[00:37:25]Craig Scharton: [00:37:25] you know, go to go to our friends, over at ampersand, that’s the best choice next would be franchise, but still a pretty good chunk of money goes out of town to the franchise.
[00:37:35] But that’s better than a chain would be your last, because you are sending your profit from those purchases to some other city. And we don’t even get a thank you note back. I’ll ask
[00:37:47] Tim Goetz: [00:37:47] people, you know, I guess
[00:37:50] Craig Scharton: [00:37:50] I’ll see that. I’ll say that. Go to yard house and I go work. Where’s the, where is the headquarters of yard now?
[00:37:57] I don’t know. I go, exactly. You don’t even know [00:38:00] where you’re sending your
[00:38:00] Tim Goetz: [00:38:00] profits to like, let’s keep it all by
[00:38:02] Paul Swearengin: [00:38:02] the way. The food’s awful. So don’t go there. But did I say that out loud? I’m sorry, but it’s true. And the thing, what is it, Craig, then when you spend that dollar with a local company, it circulates how many times?
[00:38:14] Six
[00:38:14] Craig Scharton: [00:38:14] times or so. And people, you know, for every 10% that they shift toward purchasing
[00:38:20] Tim Goetz: [00:38:20] locally.
[00:38:21] Craig Scharton: [00:38:21] And what’s funny is people go though, I can’t spend a hundred percent locally. No, if you change from 40% of 50%, it comes into
[00:38:30] Tim Goetz: [00:38:30] hundreds
[00:38:30] Craig Scharton: [00:38:30] of millions of dollars that flows through our, our economy. It really doesn’t take that much and we do the best.
[00:38:37] We make the best stuff in the world here, so.
[00:38:39] Paul Swearengin: [00:38:39] Alright, so app close, go, go get it. Tim, what else are you? Have you seen anything in this not-for-profit world? That’s that is shifting as we were talking about before, what, what are the changes that could happen in these spaces coming out of COVID time?
[00:38:56] Tim Goetz: [00:38:56] Yeah, you know, I’m not sure.
[00:38:57] I think that the churches, it’s still a little [00:39:00] early to see what’s going to happen there. And, I’m imagining. you know, I’m not sure if they’ll, the churches will keep their streaming services and then people will continue to participate in that service instead of going person or not. That is yet to be determined and same kind of with the fundraising and the nonprofits.
[00:39:19]the one thing I will say, about the nonprofit space though, is. The nonprofit space is full of just passionate people. Like these are people that I would not discount as far as getting through tough times. they are not trying to make a ton of money. they are people who think there’s something wrong with the world.
[00:39:39] And so they’re going to do something about it. and it is very respectable and it’s hard not to get behind that. and those people, I think, are the people that are going to continue to rally they’ll figure out a way. and they may have some tough times ahead. but I don’t think they’re going anywhere.
[00:39:58] So that’s my, my [00:40:00] guests on, on it at least.
[00:40:03] Craig Scharton: [00:40:03] Oh, it’d be interesting to see it’s all unchartered territory.
[00:40:06] Tim Goetz: [00:40:06] Yeah.
[00:40:07] Paul Swearengin: [00:40:07] I mean, I think in the church world, this is sort of forced innovation and there’s been. Sort of this panic for a long time of, Hey, the millennials aren’t coming to church. They’re not going to be that four Sunday a month churchgoer.
[00:40:22] And so I really see this, I think this is going to be beneficial longterm for the church world, but, but anybody that thinks, okay, it’s going to be the same on the other side of this. And it’s crazy. Cause I think it’s yeah, it was going to have to change anyway. And so now I think is a great time for it to change coming out of the, out of the other side of this.
[00:40:42] Tim Goetz: [00:40:42] Right. Yep.
[00:40:43] Paul Swearengin: [00:40:43] Yeah. I mean, I know one of my friends, they, they used to do three services on Sunday morning and the pastor famous telling me never again, well, we do three live in house services on a Sunday morning. One of those is going to be online forever more so. [00:41:00] Yeah.
[00:41:01] Tim Goetz: [00:41:01] Yeah. And the tr the, the nonprofit space in general has kind of trailed behind on the technology side and the innovation side behind the business space.
[00:41:10] And. I think this has been a very, a big equalizer, and I think that has forced kind of adoption of technology and innovation, across everybody. so I do think that that has been good. You know, my kids, go to, a manual, and they had to go to zoom classes and they didn’t have a subscription before COVID and now they do, and now they know what they can do with that.
[00:41:32] And, So, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m hopeful that this has helped kind of bring that the nonprofits and churches kind of current with technology. We’re all in the same. We’re all at home right now.
[00:41:45] Paul Swearengin: [00:41:45] So, yeah. All right. Anything else we need to know about? Apolis
[00:41:51] Tim Goetz: [00:41:51] I just give us a go. so@apolis.com,
[00:41:55] Craig Scharton: [00:41:55] right? We’re going to promote the heck out of it.
[00:41:57] Paul Swearengin: [00:41:57] Absolutely.
[00:41:59] Two Guys Open: [00:41:59] Now we [00:42:00] take it home with Craig and Paul on the final countdown. Here’s Paul and Craig
[00:42:05] Paul Swearengin: [00:42:05] what’s on your mind today, Craig?
[00:42:07] Craig Scharton: [00:42:07] Well, I’m going to stick with this local economy thing last week. we were very lucky to have our trees trim too, which I was very happy about. when Brian file as our neighbor and they had done history a week before and they dropped off.
[00:42:24] 20 cubic yards of a, at his place. Yeah. Malts and I was, I told them I coveted my neighbor’s mulch. So when they got over to our street, I, I, I went out to talk to the guy. Yeah. Again, greatly
[00:42:41] Tim Goetz: [00:42:41] appreciative to have my trees
[00:42:43] Craig Scharton: [00:42:43] trimmed, but started talking to the guy and that he lives in Hollister. And the guy next to him lives in Milpitas and the guy who was working next to him lives in Salinas and another one lived in Gilroy.
[00:42:57] And so I go, where’s your [00:43:00] company headquartered? And he said, Sandy, I got to Santa Clara. I’m like the city of Fresno. Can’t find a look, local tree trimming company. And so of course I posted something on Facebook about it. How irritating that was, you know, there’s a lot of things we don’t know make cars here.
[00:43:18] So you’re going to buy a car from out of town. Your computer’s probably going to come from some other place, but you know, we’re talking about social justice issues over here. And then as you leak money out of your economy unnecessarily, you are, you have fewer jobs and fewer opportunities and those kinds of things.
[00:43:38] So. they come over here for three weeks, the owner, the company rents a house, they buy them groceries that they stay there for three weeks and then they all go back home with a, with a paycheck. And so of course, you know, I got the typical city response, you know, the bidding process and, and that kind of thing.
[00:43:58] And, and it [00:44:00] just, I just want to say that shows a complete and total lack of creativity. To me, if you’re just going to like throw out a notice and take the lowest bid instead of like calling all the contractors in and cause a lot of times you’ll find out there’s a bonding requirement. That’s
[00:44:17] Tim Goetz: [00:44:17] too big for
[00:44:17] Craig Scharton: [00:44:17] them.
[00:44:18] But if you can get to two or three of them together, they can meet, meet that threshold. Then you could talk to them and find ways to do it. Or you could take that budget amount and you could create a nonprofit and you could train people how to become tree trimmers and they could. Have a skill and develop,
[00:44:35] Tim Goetz: [00:44:35] you know,
[00:44:35] Paul Swearengin: [00:44:35] and use that plus software
[00:44:38] Craig Scharton: [00:44:38] Zappos software, for sure.
[00:44:39] And that’s
[00:44:40] Tim Goetz: [00:44:40] how it all works. Right.
[00:44:42]Craig Scharton: [00:44:42] so anyway, so those kinds of things, and then other people were posting. Yeah. Target’s repairing the roof. I’m running a house to the workers here. Cause there’s.
[00:44:53] Tim Goetz: [00:44:53] They’re
[00:44:53] Craig Scharton: [00:44:53] they’re hiring it out of town roofing company. I’m like we have re roofing contractors here. Like we’ve got [00:45:00] to figure this stuff out.
[00:45:01] So that’s, what’s on my mind today. I’m,
[00:45:02] Tim Goetz: [00:45:02] I’m a, I’m a grumpy old
[00:45:05] Craig Scharton: [00:45:05] local economic development guy
[00:45:08] Paul Swearengin: [00:45:08] because Fresno drives you bonkers.
[00:45:10] Craig Scharton: [00:45:10] Yeah. Sometimes more than others.
[00:45:12] Tim Goetz: [00:45:12] And that really did
[00:45:14] Craig Scharton: [00:45:14] the short drive to bonkers.
[00:45:16] Paul Swearengin: [00:45:16] Tim, do you want to go next? Do you have something on your mind?
[00:45:20] Tim Goetz: [00:45:20] You know, I think what’s on my mind right at the moment is, is nothing quite as noble is crazy thing there.
[00:45:28] I think I live up in the foothills and, that’s how I kind of work with my hands now. So I run a software company during the day and nights and weekends. I ranch, you know, a couple of hours ago, my wife came in with my two oldest kids and she looks at them and says, Do you want it? You need to tell your dad what happened.
[00:45:50] And I’m like, Oh no, what did they do? They stole, they stole the car. I don’t know what they do. And one of them says, well, [00:46:00] so I wanted, I really wanted to pet the cow, but it was running away. And so I was thinking if I lasso it, then I can have it. So there is now a lasso around one of the cow’s feet. That is out in the pasture that I’ve got to go figure out how to remove a lasso from a cow’s foot in the middle of the pasture.
[00:46:23] That’s skiddish. You know, I don’t know how to do that. So that’s thinking about now is walking down there as soon as we’re here,
[00:46:33] Paul Swearengin: [00:46:33] that is a, that is a classic. Sorry, go ahead, Craig.
[00:46:39] Craig Scharton: [00:46:39] You get some of the video that
[00:46:41] Tim Goetz: [00:46:41] I think, no, not a chance.
[00:46:43] Craig Scharton: [00:46:43] I think we got at least a million views on this
[00:46:45] Tim Goetz: [00:46:45] one.
[00:46:47] Paul Swearengin: [00:46:47] I was thinking that that is a classic car cat dog catches cars scenario right there.
[00:46:52] What exactly happens when you last saw the cow? Yeah, that’s great,
[00:46:56] Tim Goetz: [00:46:56] right? Yeah. That’s also, I think a classic. [00:47:00] Being that a software CEO does in their afternoons. Right. Totally normal, totally normal.
[00:47:08] Paul Swearengin: [00:47:08] All right. Mine’s a little bit heavier in this environment. I, you know, I’ve, I’ve been encouraging people to get.
[00:47:14] Educated, on just systemic racism and, and making some recommendations. And so through all of that, I’ve been planning on seeing the documentary 13th and my daughter who just came home from college and she’s our social justice warrior. And she was incensed that we had not seen 13th yet the documentary that was nominated for an Academy award.
[00:47:39] And so if you haven’t seen it yet, you’ve gotta see it. It is. I don’t even real, I don’t have the words to quite explain it is it is, earth shaking. And, just to see at the end of the documentary, they, you know, of course many have heard of Emmett till and how he was beaten beyond recognition and found his [00:48:00] body.
[00:48:00] And his mother insisted that the casket be open at his funeral and they took pictures and showed them in jet magazine to. To give a feel of how brutal the beating was of her son and so many other African American when parents and family members gave permission for the shootings of their family members and their deaths to be shown.
[00:48:22] And so you just watch a series. Of African American men dying, toward the end of the documentary. And it’s excruciatingly painful to watch as it’s supposed to be. And so I just say, if you haven’t watched 13th yet, which is on Netflix and it may be available other places. It is a must watch if you’re watching what’s going on in our culture today and saying, why is this happening?
[00:48:50] 13th is a must watch. And the number 13 is about the 13th amendment, which was the amendment that made. slavery [00:49:00] abolished in America, but it has this, phrase in it that says, unless you’ve committed a crime, I think is, is something to that effect. And so that exception has been used through history to incarcerate blacks that we could no longer in slave through slavery.
[00:49:17] And so anyway, that’s the documentary. And I say, if you haven’t seen it yet with what’s going on in, in our culture today, it is a it’s, it’s a requirement for everyone out there to
[00:49:28] see.
[00:49:29] Craig Scharton: [00:49:29] Alright.
[00:49:30] Paul Swearengin: [00:49:30] Alright. Good stuff.
[00:49:33]Craig Scharton: [00:49:33] Good stuff guys. Thanks for doing what you’re doing, Tim.
[00:49:37] Tim Goetz: [00:49:37] Yeah, you guys as well. Thank you for having me on.
[00:49:39] Craig Scharton: [00:49:39] Thanks for investing in our community.
[00:49:42]

Talking Neighborhoods with Joe White Jun 26, 2020

Several weeks ago we spoke with Joe White, Pastor of Neighborhood Church in Fresno about his lifelong commitment to seeing neighborhoods improved in Fresno and how each of us can be part of that change.

Joe White

Neighborhood Church

Jackson Community Development Corporation

Granville Chapel Vancouver BC

Alta Vista Tract Fresno

National Main Street

Esther Carver-Lowell CDC

John Perkins

Hanford Thursday Night Market Place

Vision 22 Fresno

Paraclete Missionary Baptist Church

Paul’s Leadership Coaching Cohort

What’s on your mind?

Conspiracy Theories

Doing Household Projects

Andy Crouch

Gazebo Gardens

Transcript: Transcribed by AI, not 100% guaranteed accurate.

[00:00:00] Joe White: [00:00:00] I think it’s the responsibility that we have. Fresno is, we all know it’s fifth poorest city in America.

[00:00:04]we have 22 of the highest concentrated poverty neighborhoods, , which makes, pushing big rocks up Hill, very difficult. and so , , the reality is we’re in such a desperate situation. If you do have. resources available to you as I do.

[00:00:19] It’s not the time to sit in the stands.

[00:00:21] Two Guys Liner: [00:00:21] podcast of two guys talking. Fresno are two guys are mr. Fresno, Craig Sharpton. I’m longtime radio talk show host, Paul swear, engine Paul and Craig talking Fresno on the two guys talking Fresno podcast. Now here’s Craig and Paul

[00:00:37] Paul Swearengin: [00:00:37] and we’re zooming

[00:00:38] Craig Scharton: [00:00:38] again. Yeah, I love it.

[00:00:41] Paul Swearengin: [00:00:41] we are we’re properly social distancing, Ashley and I went and went grocery shopping. I don’t know what the decorum is on this cause there was a dad and his sort of.

[00:00:51] You know, older teenage son, and as we’re coming down the aisle, they’ll be coming the other way. And we kept running into each other in that same way. And they didn’t know social distancing at [00:01:00] all. And they had no masks. And like, even with like reach over our cart to get some, I was like, actually, and I laid her, like I was low key, really bugged by this, you know?

[00:01:10] And didn’t know, I said, what is the decorum? When do we get to say, Hey, bud, back off with your, with your virus germs, my friend.

[00:01:18] Craig Scharton: [00:01:18] Yeah, it was, I talked to a lady who was at the grocery store and, you know, after you’re done the, but you haven’t finished bagging, the checker started checking the next person and the other lady started coming and bagging right next to her and even grabbed a couple of her items.

[00:01:37] And she was

[00:01:38] Joe White: [00:01:38] like,

[00:01:38] Craig Scharton: [00:01:38] I just wasn’t going to kill her. And I had to like yell at the clerk and go, why would you start what with one birth or when the other person wasn’t done called the manager and everything else.

[00:01:50] Paul Swearengin: [00:01:50] It’s the other skill we’re having to learn in this time is bagging our own groceries. So that’s, that’s another thing we’re going to come out of this with a lot of skills to zoom [00:02:00] skills, bagging our groceries, making masks.

[00:02:03] Craig Scharton: [00:02:03] My pepper spray handy.

[00:02:08]

[00:02:08] Paul Swearengin: [00:02:08] Alright. We have a great guest today on the show. This is going to be fun. It’s Joe White, who’s the lead pastor of neighborhood church. And he heads up the Jackson community development corporation. And, and there’s an all around great guy. So, Joe, how are you today?

[00:02:22] Joe White: [00:02:22] Amazing. And I’m so glad to be talking to the two guys talking smack.

[00:02:26] No, the two guys talking Fresno, Fresno.

[00:02:30] Craig Scharton: [00:02:30] I’m tying to smack about Fresno, but we live here so we can write.

[00:02:35] Joe White: [00:02:35] I agree.

[00:02:37] Paul Swearengin: [00:02:37] We can kid, because we love

[00:02:43] Joe. Your story is an amazing one as a, as a Fresno. I think because you had the chance to not be a Fresno and, and we always, we love boomerang stories as they’re called of young people that grow up in Fresno and leave and come back. But, so tell us, why did you [00:03:00] come back to Fresno after living in a great place like Vancouver, Canada?

[00:03:04] Joe White: [00:03:04] Right. And I won’t want to tell you that, but can I just back up one step before that Paul and I know, and I know the boomerang is the interesting part, but it’s actually the throwing of the boomerang, which, was most impactful. I grew up in the Lowell neighborhood, just North of downtown. I’m the soul, the soil of law.

[00:03:20] When I was growing up alone, neighborhood was Fresno’s highest crime, lowest income neighborhood. And, yeah.

[00:03:25] Craig Scharton: [00:03:25] Yeah. Nine, nine, three, seven Oh one is still lowest.

[00:03:28] Joe White: [00:03:28] Right. That makes you pull

[00:03:30] Craig Scharton: [00:03:30] in other low income districts, mad.

[00:03:32] Joe White: [00:03:32] Cause I know, well, you got to win at something. And my, my neighborhood, when I was growing up was it was, really a desperate place, multiple gangs battling for turf.

[00:03:41] And we were part of a group of families, about six families who decided collectively to live on each block of the neighborhood and just to seek the neighborhood’s wellbeing. And that was kind of the world that was. Tridion. And I just watched a lot of people work really hard to find the best that was in law and maximize it.

[00:03:58] Paul Swearengin: [00:03:58] You at that time.

[00:03:59] Joe White: [00:03:59] Sorry to interrupt. But [00:04:00] that was a, I was seven. Yeah. So just a little boy

[00:04:03] Paul Swearengin: [00:04:03] and you moved from Clovis, is that right?

[00:04:05] Joe White: [00:04:05] Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. I was, I lived on a, on a, in a suburban neighborhood in Clovis, on, on a street called Ashcroft. There was like a more, you know, is everything a suburban neighborhood has a Mormon family and a golden retriever and a col-de-sac.

[00:04:17] It was all right there. And, that was, that was my world. And when I was. Thrust into the Lowell neighborhood. just as a young boy, it really, radically changed me. I saw a Fresno that I didn’t know really existed and that many people had forgotten about a square mile, six blocks running North to South divided by one block, run East to West 6,000 people and a high density and just a whole new world.

[00:04:41] My family moved into a hundred year old. The lap of David mansion, six bedrooms, six bathrooms. Each, each room was decorated in a different motif. It was used as a boarding house. My room was decorated like a sailor’s room. They had driven bolts in the side of the walls to make it look like a sailor ship.

[00:04:57] My parents’ room was a harem. They had taken [00:05:00] silk sheets and brought it up to a canopy in the middle to make it look like a harem. The downstairs bedroom was all black, black floor, black walls, black ceiling. What happens in a black room? I mean, it was a wild house, like a truly wild house. And, that was the house that, that I grew up in and, went to our local schools, kind of thrust into, into that world a few years after having moved.

[00:05:22] And, and so in many ways, my identity, I mean, I’m a Fresno kid. I’m a kid that grew up in Fresno. I’m a kid that grew up in the, in the Lowell neighborhood. All my memories were from people there, Dickey, playgrounds, where I learned by basketball, no blood, no foul. you know, this is the, the, the, the world that I went to Edison high school, not the competency program.

[00:05:41] That was for the smart kids. I just went to like a normal one, you know, where you like walk and then you go, you know, that was my world. And so, played basketball for Edison and something profound happened in kind of middle through high school. I hated my neighborhood. I hated how violent it was.

[00:05:57] I hated how it made me feel. [00:06:00] afraid all the time. I hated, the, the issues, which were constantly at our doorstep as a family, our family really like was a family. There was very little barrier between the neighborhood and our home. It was, it was like a one was the same, you know,

[00:06:13] Craig Scharton: [00:06:13] you had wine in the house, right?

[00:06:16] Joe White: [00:06:16] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:18] Craig Scharton: [00:06:18] Teaching neighborhood kids how to read.

[00:06:19] Joe White: [00:06:19] Oh yeah. Yeah. My whole childhood few times a week. Yep. We had reading clubs and all sorts of clubs going on. it was very, very, I was a, I was a tutor, even though I didn’t know how to read, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s it’s I was in it, you know, we were in it to win it as a family.

[00:06:34] And for me, that was incredibly profound to watch what it looked like to actually live that way. But it was also exhausting. I just remember feeling, like many of my friends felt can’t wait to get out. You know, can’t wait to experience, experience something else. I mean, I think a lot of the friends that I had grown up, they didn’t look like me, but we lived in the same neighborhood and went to the same school.

[00:06:58] And our experience [00:07:00] was, you know, kind of chaotic and difficult, but I had the incredible privilege of having parents who had a bigger vision. And, and so I had the awareness that couldn’t get out, you know, and kind of could, it could explore. And so something profound had happened to me in high school.

[00:07:14] In high school, I stopped hating my neighborhood. And I started really feeling, bad for my friends. Many of whom went to the gangs and many of whom got addicted and just, you know, continued the cycles of poverty that we all know about. And I just watched that happen to many of my friends. I just started to hate it.

[00:07:30] I started to hate what it did to the people that I loved. so after high school, after having graduated barely, I went to okay, more than bear V I was a, B. A B is. Okay. after, after,

[00:07:46] after having graduated, I did a one year diploma in urban ministry. And part of the course curriculum was you had to sit on a Saturday and do these Saturday long seminars [00:08:00] in commune development and things like this that think things that my dad would be interested in. And I remember sitting in this classroom filled with people on a Saturday.

[00:08:08] I was probably 18 years old. And, something about what the teacher was saying was just resonating with me. Have you ever had that experience and somebody is teaching something and you’re like, Oh, gosh, like this, this is my stuff. This is who I am. And I remember this feeling and like, I actually started a week in the back of this classroom.

[00:08:28] Maybe it was because I grew up in a poor neighborhood and I wanted to see my neighborhood change. Maybe it was because I watched my parents do incredible work along with many others to actually see visible, tangible change, measurable change. I don’t know what it was, but something about it was speaking to me.

[00:08:42] And so I was so embarrassed. Everyone’s in there taking notes and I’m 18. I’m like, Weeping. And so I ran out of the class and it so happened that the class was next to an overpass under which highway 41 runs. And so I’m sitting there bawling my eyes out on this [00:09:00] overpass, watching cars, some running North to North Fresno, the rich part of him, and some running South to South Fresno, the poor part of town where I’m from.

[00:09:08] And I will this with you is I is I can possibly be for the first time of my life. And this has never happened to me since. For the first time in my life, I heard God speak to me. I heard God say, Joe, are you gonna serve me in the North? Or are you going to serve me in the South? Now? What was so cool about his invitation?

[00:09:28] Is that it wasn’t one was better than the other. It was where are you going to do it? Where are you gonna serve me? Is it going to be in the North or is it going to be in the snap and my friends? I remember what I did that day. I was 18 years. In fact, the stills, I tell the story, I can get the goosebumps on my arm.

[00:09:43] I remember turning towards downtown, looking up at heaven. Cause that’s where I thought heaven was. At that point, I look up and having a yelled at the top of my lungs. I will go South. And then I wiped the tears from my eyes. And went back in the [00:10:00] class and continued setting about a year later, God, I believe would call me as far North as possible to Canada.

[00:10:11] So I had made a decision to go South. I thought my life was going to be about serving vulnerable people and vulnerable places. In fact, I even got hired at a local nonprofit, called hope now for youth, that was a vocational placement counselor helped young men ages 16 to 24 with gang affiliations or criminal records dropped out of school.

[00:10:30] My job was the recruiter. I would find those guys on the streets of our city and then get them in the program at job, train them and launch them into full time jobs. I did that for four years full time, and all of a sudden I made that decision. So to go South. And some short while later, I was heading North and not just anywhere North, I went to Canada as far North, as you can go.

[00:10:51] And not just anywhere Northern Canada, I went to Vancouver, British Columbia. One of the nicest cities in the world.

[00:10:56] Craig Scharton: [00:10:56] No, no, no. In many years it [00:11:00] is voted as the Knights. I don’t think it has been out of the top

[00:11:07] Joe White: [00:11:07] three in. 15 to 20 years. It’s insane. It’s truly

[00:11:15] Craig Scharton: [00:11:15] a nice city. I just want to be clear the international surveys quite often as at the top in the world.

[00:11:25] Joe White: [00:11:25] It’s so true. And not just anywhere in the nicest city in the world, I moved to kits beach, which if you’ve been to Vancouver, kids beach, The nicest neighborhood in the night to see in, in the world. And it’s literally any more North you’re in the water. I lived on the beach. I literally lived on the beach half, half a block from the beach was from a ski Hill in the nicest city in the world.

[00:11:48] Yeah. I could see it from my window, my window overlooked grass mountain.

[00:11:55] Paul Swearengin: [00:11:55] That’s funny. So that’s a quote, Cuba Gooding jr. And Jerry Maguire. [00:12:00] That’s another way to go. So you, you, you, you didn’t go South. You went as far North, as you could go both physically and mentally and spiritually.

[00:12:09] Joe White: [00:12:09] If you know the book of Jonah, it’s a little bit like going in the opposite direction.

[00:12:15] Paul Swearengin: [00:12:15] Well, that’s great. Well, so what took you up there? You got a job up there?

[00:12:20] Joe White: [00:12:20] I did originally it was to go to school. I never, at that time, I felt like nonprofit was the only way to go. I, you know, you could do more than a nonprofit then I believe you could ever do an, a church. It was like, forget that. No, we’re working for a church overworked under prayed church politics.

[00:12:34] I get more done in the nonprofit world. And so that, that was my mentality, but I went to a, to seminary, you know, my master’s degree at a seminary in Vancouver and instantly got connected to a great church. And, I ended up working for that church for 10 years. But what was unique about that church was that it was a lot of rich people.

[00:12:55]that was not the world I grew up in my, I am the soil of LOL, the rich people [00:13:00] that I knew. Was that, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t like the wealth that we see in a place like Vancouver. I mean, it, wasn’t uncommon to see sports cars rolling up to the church on a, on a Sunday, you know, it’s, it, wasn’t uncommon to see most of the kids in the youth group going to Ivy league schools.

[00:13:17] Like that was pretty common actually. and so it really was like a, a true culture shock. I remember when I first moved and got hired, I called my dad. Who? I think he just, Paul had on in Craig just had on the podcast. I, I remember calling him and I was like, dad, I can’t handle these people. He said, what do you mean these people?

[00:13:38] I said, they’re also put together and they’re also wealthy. I feel like I’m going to start wearing Brooks brothers suits pretty soon up here. If I stay here, I never ended up wearing Brooks brothers suits, but that would have been nice. Cause those are really expensive. but I, I did find that, that it was a real culture shock for me, a, a local neighborhood kid, right.

[00:13:59] Thrown into the [00:14:00] world of wealth and power, and prestige and status. Those are all things that were very important to a Vancouver. Right. And on top of it, all the icing on the cake was workaholism. the harder you work. The more Valerie you have in the community. And so those were all things that I didn’t, I didn’t know much about

[00:14:23] Craig Scharton: [00:14:23] how long did you stay up there?

[00:14:25] Joe White: [00:14:25] We were there for 10 years.

[00:14:27] Craig Scharton: [00:14:27] Oh, wow. So you really just fly by, you know, pretty deeply

[00:14:32] Joe White: [00:14:32] we did. And you know, part, part of the reality is I think for us, it was like it’s, the, the allure of comfort. And, being at ease strong, it’s really strong, being around, being around folks who are mostly all educated.

[00:14:49] You know, if, if, if you had to put a category around me, you’d say he grew up with two parents, grew up in a home that had vision grew up with [00:15:00] all sorts of privilege, education well and so forth. and you kind of put all that stuff in a box. None of that fit well in the context of, of. the loan, the loan neighborhood.

[00:15:11] In fact, it was out of place. and so as a, as a kid, we were taught to, to, to squeeze our privilege on behalf of others, steer it in the right direction. Literally use it as a tool to serve that’s it not as a tool, not as a ladder, a rung to be stepped on, never use it that way. Always to serve. That’s what I was taught, but, but it never fit well in context of law.

[00:15:35] But when we moved to Vancouver, With my new wife and we started having kids up there, all that privilege fit right in like a puzzle piece, right into a big old matrix of other people that had all the same privilege and more. And so the, the allure of comfort in the Alora status, the allure of space and kind of the beauty of a place, very attractive to us.

[00:15:56] And so thankfully I come from the family that I came from. [00:16:00] And, I didn’t leave that at the door. When I moved to Vancouver, I never got comfortable. I don’t think, I think I can say that. we, we actually tried to steer our church towards being a church that cared about vulnerable people. And over the course of 10 years, that’s exactly what that church is today.

[00:16:15] In fact, that church, if, if there’s any church of Vancouver, Granville chapel, shout out to them, that church serves honorable people left. I mean, that’s all they do. Th th it’s the only reason they exist is to serve their city and serve vulnerable people. That’s it? And it’s a church of wealthy people.

[00:16:29] That’s all, they are as wealthy people who have it together and have status and privilege, and they found a way to leak it, squeeze it on behalf of their city’s most vulnerable. And so,

[00:16:38] Craig Scharton: [00:16:38] Maybe that’s your say is that that’s a area where there were a lot of homeless people over by gas, down

[00:16:44] Joe White: [00:16:44] the downtown East side.

[00:16:45] Yeah. We used to do a lot of work on the downtown East side. In fact, my wife actually worked there for a long period of time with union gospel mission, which is like a rescue mission. She worked, right there on the downtown East side for many years.

[00:16:56] Craig Scharton: [00:16:56] Yeah, they’re all kind of congregate. All the services are kind of congregated [00:17:00] in one area.

[00:17:01] Joe White: [00:17:01] And I remember,

[00:17:02]Craig Scharton: [00:17:02] so I rented a, LA apartment loft in one of the downtown Vancouver places for like a week or.

[00:17:11] Joe White: [00:17:11] Oh, yeah, here’s

[00:17:12] Craig Scharton: [00:17:12] something. And we face in grouse mountain and the guy that I rented it from, he was like, everything is great. Except if you cross the street, it’s gonna, you don’t want to do

[00:17:22] Joe White: [00:17:22] that.

[00:17:28] Craig Scharton: [00:17:28] Yeah, that’s cute. But I tell you, when you cross that street, it gets pretty, real, pretty damn fast. I can’t remember what street it was, but all of a sudden I’m there with my ex wife and a son and his girlfriend now wife, and, Like we hadn’t crossed the street and there were like four people trying to sell us drugs with my kids.

[00:17:50] Right.

[00:17:51] Joe White: [00:17:51] Like, yeah. You’re a little

[00:17:53] Craig Scharton: [00:17:53] bit Corum, you know, like

[00:17:54] Joe White: [00:17:54] I think it’s like 50%, I think 50% of every [00:18:00] person, you have to fact check this for those who are listening, but I’m pretty sure 50% of every single person you see on the downtown East side has a mental illness. And so, it’s actually visually stimulating, right?

[00:18:11] Because you, you know, one out of every two people are literally doing. I think erratic. and it’s not just, you know, the booze or whatever, but it’s, it’s literally like people are, you know, having seizures and, in episodes

[00:18:24] Craig Scharton: [00:18:24] for people that are sensitive to those things, it is a real energy change. Like, Oh

[00:18:29] my

[00:18:29] Joe White: [00:18:29] goodness.

[00:18:30] Craig Scharton: [00:18:30] I think that’s what shocking is. Usually you get a couple of, you know, like San Francisco, you. I bought a good block and a mediocre block, and then a couple

[00:18:39] Joe White: [00:18:39] blocks later, a little rough,

[00:18:42]Craig Scharton: [00:18:42] not in that. It was like, but they have a containment strategy where all the services are in one place.

[00:18:48] Joe White: [00:18:48] So

[00:18:50] Craig Scharton: [00:18:50] it is like LA skid row, but not nearly that bad.

[00:18:54] Joe White: [00:18:54] So Vancouver for me, you know, was this kind of, period in our lives where I [00:19:00] had to figure out how to speak to wealthy people. and it’s different because in, in Fresno, the, the kind of language of Fresno, the language of, service towards vulnerable people in Fresno doesn’t sound the same. when talking to wealthy people, like I would never ask my neighbors to.

[00:19:21] Squeeze their privilege. We’ve been using that phrase in the last few minutes here to squeeze their privilege on behalf of those who are most vulnerable among them. That, that wouldn’t be like, what we’d, what we’d say here. Right. but, but it is in, in the language of, of Vancouver, the only way to get.

[00:19:37] Into the minds, the psychology of a business owner of somebody who has an amazing mansion at kit’s beach. somebody that has an amazing retirement plan. I mean, the only way to get into the mindset of someone like that is to say, how can you use your life, literally leverage your life to do, to do something good.

[00:19:56] And, and so I had to learn how to speak that way for a bunch of years for [00:20:00] about three or four years. When we first moved, I was terrible at it. And most, and most people, I would say, just loved my stories about poverty and loved my store. You know, like the poverty tourists. Tell me another one.

[00:20:12] Joke. Tell me another one.

[00:20:15] Craig Scharton: [00:20:15] I would tell them about the police helicopter search

[00:20:18] Joe White: [00:20:18] and all of that, like,

[00:20:21] Paul Swearengin: [00:20:21] Oh, you’re so funny.

[00:20:23] Joe White: [00:20:23] Right?

[00:20:27] Craig Scharton: [00:20:27] And it would shine through my window and my pregnant. Wife would be up there and they’re like, Oh, you are, you can

[00:20:33] Paul Swearengin: [00:20:33] tell a tale.

[00:20:34] Joe White: [00:20:34] Yeah. So for the first few years I could get beyond just the stories. I mean, they just, you know, the, the disconnected Vancouverite who that wasn’t their world, couldn’t, you know, couldn’t, couldn’t, place that for themselves.

[00:20:48] And it would mostly result in people going like this. I’m glad someone’s doing it. Glad someone’s doing it. Good job. Big, big thumbs up. Well done. Well done. Glad you’re doing that. That’s really important. Good work. [00:21:00] Right. But, but to take the next step to actually leverage people’s assets on behalf of, their, their community, that’s a whole other process.

[00:21:07] Craig Scharton: [00:21:07] And then we try to leverage assets. So that’s one of the ones you learned.

[00:21:11] Joe White: [00:21:11] Yeah. Leveraging

[00:21:12] Craig Scharton: [00:21:12] a return on investment, a lot

[00:21:14] Joe White: [00:21:14] ROI. That’s all about the baby baby. So for a good seven, seven years, that was really the strategy. How do you take people that are disconnected from their city and help them to see it, helping to see what’s there?

[00:21:29] To see its vulnerability. We actually began to realize that Vancouver was a socially isolated and disconnected place, that the issues of poverty that I saw every day as a little kid lived out, lived on my sidewalks, but those same issues lived inside of their big mansions, alcoholism. And my front sidewalk was the same kind of alcoholism that was behind closed doors in Vancouver.

[00:21:53] Right? that the pocket a little better. It just tastes a little bit better and it’s a little bit easier to hide my brother and I call it [00:22:00] pain with property and, and that’s really what it is. It’s, it’s, being able to kind of insulate your pain with all the stuff that you’ve got in your life to keep a distance from people.

[00:22:11] And that’s the Vancouver story. And so for seven years, we began to speak to that pain, and learn how to do that in a way that mobilizes people. And I’ll tell you, in, in 2000. This is the long lead up to your answer to your question. And Paul, I haven’t forgotten. How did you come back to Fresno? So for the listener, it all led to this.

[00:22:33] And in, in 2013, I had a profound experience. if I could just tell a short story, would you mind, December of 2013, I’m sitting in front of our church about to get up and speak and. For the second time of my life. Something very strange happened to me. I daydream all day long. I daydream my mind wanders.

[00:22:56] I think about the laundry, even in church. What do I have to do today? Am I gonna do about that? Oh yeah. [00:23:00] Supposed to be singing right now. We’re supposed to be singing the aliasing Saint saying, what am I supposed to do after this? You know, my mind wanders and I’m sitting in the front row and my mind wandered and my mind wandered to a question.

[00:23:09] The question was, are you still called to this? And in my mind, I said, yeah, I love this. And then I went up on the stage, spoke, got off, nailed it. And then on the way home coming home and still finding myself thinking about the question and that question paralyzed me for three days. I just couldn’t stop thinking about, am I still called to this mr.

[00:23:29] Call to this? And then all of a sudden, after three days, I’m starting to get bothered. So I. Called my mentors. I’m a really big believer in mentoring and a, I have a bunch of coaches in my life who coach me and I called these guys like, Hey, is this a transition moment for me? What do you think? I’ve been kind of thinking about this question.

[00:23:46] They said, we have no idea. Here’s what we want you to do. We want you to write a personal bio. So what’s that? They said a personal bio is what you would say. If you sat down in front of Craig Chardan and you had never met him before, and [00:24:00] you had to describe to him. In very clear terms who you think that you are, what would you say.

[00:24:06] Now you can’t say everything could crate don’t care and it’s going to be way too long. So what’s the one, two or three things.

[00:24:12] Craig Scharton: [00:24:12] Mind also wanders.

[00:24:17] Joe White: [00:24:17] So what are the ones who are three things at the core? This is who you are. I was like, that’s an interesting task. So I wrote that down and I handed it to all my friends and family sent it to him on the email. What do you guys think? Is this me? Would you add anything or take something out? And a hundred percent of the people I sent it to got it back.

[00:24:35] I got back from and they said, no, we would change nothing. This is who you are. Well, I looked at that list of stuff and I looked at what I was doing in Vancouver and I thought, perfect. I’m doing exactly what I’m made to do. And yet there was this feeling inside my life of discontent and it’s like, I couldn’t shake it.

[00:24:55] It was like a bad COVID-19. Oh, that was okay too, too soon, too [00:25:00] soon, too soon on the COVID-19 jokes. But the point is, it was just something I couldn’t shake. I couldn’t shake it that inaugurated a year of exploring. And I could tell you a bunch of stories if you’re interested, but what, what it was resulted in was a clear, calling to the Jackson neighborhood.

[00:25:20] Jackson neighborhood is in Fresno, just Southeast of downtown. If you’re listening and you’re from Fresno, it’s from first to Cedar and to Larry, which runs East to West to Ventura. So it’s, it’s eight blocks by 12 blocks and it’s 923 homes. We see our neighborhood like a geographical area of responsibility.

[00:25:41] So the issues are. political, spiritual, relational, whatever. we just invest ourselves in those issues and this became our obsession. It became our, it became our calling. And in 2015, January, 2015, we moved back from Vancouver, to, to Fresno to seek the [00:26:00] wellbeing of Jackson

[00:26:02] Paul Swearengin: [00:26:02] while that’s an adventure

[00:26:06] Joe White: [00:26:06] truly.

[00:26:08] How’s Jackson. Jackson’s great. yeah, no, it’s good. It’s a, it’s an interesting neighborhood. it’s an amazing neighborhood actually. I mean, it’s, for those of you who may not know who are listening, it’s one of Fresno’s most historic neighborhoods. You have Huntington Boulevard running right down the middle.

[00:26:23] Huntington used to have a trolley that would literally take you from your home a hundred years ago. Take your ride into downtown. So you could do your work. Get you right back on the trolley and drive you right back home. That was all alfalfa fields. People loved it because they could hunt quail and build their mansions.

[00:26:39] It had a part of something called the Alta Vista track. So it had water accessibility and people planted trees that they knew it exists in a hundred years. In fact, today where I’m sitting right now, I’m looking at a, a Mexican fan Palm, which is a hundred feet tall. Somebody planted a seed. And then believe that every year it would grow about a foot a year.

[00:26:59] That’s all they [00:27:00] do about a foot, the foot a year. And then they top out between 90 to a hundred feet. These things are amazing. They, they bend when the wind blows through our neighborhood. If it doesn’t Fresno, sometimes these things bend over the neighborhood at 40 degrees. And what I love is they bend, but they don’t break.

[00:27:13] So for me, they’re a symbol of people in our neighborhood. Who’ve had to endure incredible pressures. Over the last hundred years, but they’re not to be pitied or some buddy’s charity project. These, my neighbors are the most durable neighbors in Fresno and, it feels like such a privilege to be able to look at 573 trees have counted them actually, to look at 573 trees and.

[00:27:35] I think those, those are good examples of the kind of neighbors that we have. So it’s a neighborhood that was devastated, by social inequality equality. my home, for example, has what’s called a racial covenant, built into it. This is Fresno story, like many cities across, across the nation. My, the title of my house says this house may never be sold to an Armenian Chinese or black, and many of the homes.

[00:27:59] Those are the older homes [00:28:00] in our neighborhood, have that racial covenant built into them. And that was legal according to the Supreme court until 1968. Right.

[00:28:09] Craig Scharton: [00:28:09] We’ve been through in North Fresno.

[00:28:11] Joe White: [00:28:11] Wow.

[00:28:11] Craig Scharton: [00:28:11] A lot of the, subdivisions that were built up until then had that covenant, but it is not unique to Fresno.

[00:28:18] Joe White: [00:28:18] I

[00:28:19] Craig Scharton: [00:28:19] hear some people in Fresno blaming our entire city’s problems on that. And, that was a national thing. In fact, we might’ve had much less of it than a lot of the Eastern cities had. but still a sign. Yeah. When you look at those covenants, we have a council member that was Armenian, who. Wanting to somehow get that stricken from everything.

[00:28:45] And it’s just an impossible feat to do. but you know what, so the court took care of it, right? You just didn’t want to see it there. And, I understand that, but it also sometimes good to have reminders of.

[00:29:02] [00:29:00] Joe White: [00:29:02] Well, I think it speaks to the narrative of the Jackson neighborhood because still to this day, Jackson is socioeconomically divided.

[00:29:09]you, you really do have a, you know, Huntington and Kirkoff, are relatively middle-class. And even in some cases, upper middle class, and then you have bulge plat, mono Varu, all of which are incredibly vulnerable and desperate, many. Migrant farm workers. 71% of our neighbors don’t have a high school education.

[00:29:27] I mean, just think about that at 26 average income in our neighbor, and this includes Kirkoff and Huntington average income is $26,000 a year annually. Right? That’s that’s including our wealthy streets, right? So you have incredibly wealthy and incredibly. Horrible, literally side by side. And to me, in some ways it’s a little bit like you took Lowell neighborhood and you took Kitts beach and you smashed them into one place.

[00:29:58] And so in some ways

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Craig Scharton: [00:30:00] you think about Bolton and, and van ness. So if those were two, still intact streets with two, two way traffic, and hadn’t been rezoned CSX, which is the same zoning as a convenience store, and allowed all of those houses to be converted into.

[00:30:22] Joe White: [00:30:22] Boarding houses.

[00:30:23] Craig Scharton: [00:30:23] That is what we would have had in LOL.

[00:30:25] We would have had very wealthy, people historically living on, Fulton and, van ness. And then it migrated into smaller houses and more mixed income

[00:30:38] Joe White: [00:30:38] streets. Right, right. As

[00:30:40] Craig Scharton: [00:30:40] our bad planning destroyed the. Unfortunately the cohesion of those two streets. And so then they became worse than the neighborhood with all of the problems and boarding houses, all consolidated into one place.

[00:30:57] Paul Swearengin: [00:30:57] What I was going to [00:31:00] jump in and say, what is the, what’s the goal? You know, I’m looking at you guys, two families that moved into the Lowell neighborhood. Craig still lived there. Now you’re in the Jackson neighborhood. When a family like yours, Joe moves into the little neighborhood with some other families who did it strategically sort of what is the goal?

[00:31:20] What is, what is, because I know gentrification, you don’t want to just have a bunch of white people move in and, and kick everybody else out. So kind of what is the mindset and the goal of that process?

[00:31:31] Joe White: [00:31:31] Thankfully in a neighborhood like Lowell, which has 6,000 folks, in a neighborhood like Jackson, 3,300 folks, the amount of people that it would take to displace.

[00:31:40] I mean, we have 19 vacant lots in our neighborhoods today. So,

[00:31:43] Paul Swearengin: [00:31:43] I’m really impressed by the way that you know, how many houses and how many trees and how many vacant lots in your neighborhood. I don’t know if there’s many of us that know that

[00:31:52] Joe White: [00:31:52] it’s truly a sickness. I mean, if there’s anything I nerd about.

[00:31:56] It’s it’s the Jackson neighborhood. I mean like [00:32:00] literally, and this is no exaggeration and I’m even shamed to say it the other day. I counted of streetlights on every block in the neighborhood, just because I was curious. And if you’re wondering there’s 183 on Kirkoff, so, you know, take it or leave it. But, the truth is, is that in a neighborhood like ours animal they’re there not only is enough space, but, For four people and it would take, it would take a drastic amount of people, first of all, to, to really displace people.

[00:32:26] Okay. So that’s like in terms of ratios, right? So like in law right now, they’re like what 40 families or something like this, they’re living there intentionally among 6,000 neighbors, right? Like not even, not even a fraction and same, same thing.

[00:32:40] Craig Scharton: [00:32:40] I don’t know of any gentrification that’s happened in any Valley town.

[00:32:46] Joe White: [00:32:46] Right.

[00:32:46]Craig Scharton: [00:32:46] including up to Sacramento, of the sort that you see in an Oakland or, or, or other coastal city or Brooklyn or the Bronx or something like that. And I, I, a lot of times think that, [00:33:00] are, are a bleeding heart, liberal, friends of which we have many.

[00:33:06] Joe White: [00:33:06] That

[00:33:07] Craig Scharton: [00:33:07] they almost want to have the same kinds of problems as those other plants legitimacy, like, you know, and I’d always have these young people go back to the CDC conference and come back and they’re just like gentlemen and I’m like, quantify it first.

[00:33:26] I define it for me. And they could never define it. And it was always some obscure reference to rich people moving in and poor people. And then I’d say, how do we measure it? And then tell me where it’s happened because I have yet to see it. Now I have seen. You know, maybe property values go up or, rents go up.

[00:33:51] But I don’t know that they’re going up disproportionately to other places.

[00:33:55] Joe White: [00:33:55] Right.

[00:33:56] Craig Scharton: [00:33:56] So the rents went up 14% and [00:34:00] Jack, I want to go. Okay. So, what did they do

[00:34:03] Joe White: [00:34:03] everywhere else? Yeah.

[00:34:04] Craig Scharton: [00:34:04] Oh, well, they went up 18% in North Fresno, right? I that’s not gentrification. Right, right. But,

[00:34:13] Joe White: [00:34:13] you know, we haven’t, we, we, you know, we have this belief that in, you know, the, the truth is I could spend my life breathing into the wind about the ills of gentrification, and it would still happen and it would still happen.

[00:34:26] So, so I have a choice to make, I can breathe into the wind, how he. It’s that it, it hurts certain ethnicities, more disproportionately hurts certain ethnicities, more, it hurts blacks more than it hurts whites. So on and so forth. You can make those arguments and do it. And you can totally like legit, like with data.

[00:34:46] Here’s the problem. Not only will it still happen, but it’s going to, but, but number two, I’m going to change anything. So for me, what we’ve said, we’ve decided to do on the Jackson neighbors say, how could we, how could we do gentrification with [00:35:00] justice? How can we help to be a part of the market and get neighbors into the market now so that when a rising tide raises boats, every the benefits.

[00:35:11] So for example, we work with investors. Neighbor, church works with investors to buy properties in the Jackson neighborhood and we rent them. In the Jackson neighborhood who would like to own that home one day and they’re gaining equity in the market wall are going up, right? These are just some of the little tiny contributions that we’re trying to make in a place like Jackson.

[00:35:33] And the truth is, is that. Whether gentrification happens in a ugly way or not the point of all of this. Paul, I think back to your question, the point of all this is our neighborhood. We believe has everything it needs inside of it already. To solve our problems. And so if we could just imagine this, if we, you and us meet me, Paul and Craig decide to get on a spaceship together [00:36:00] and hover above the Jackson neighborhood.

[00:36:02] What we imagine is seeing eight blocks by 12 blocks and everything’s dark. Right. And then all of a sudden, maybe on Kirk, off on third, you’d see a little light pop up. That’s John, Heidi, and then you see another light pop up. That’s a Maria and her family. They run a tamale business. And then, you know, at Baldwin seventh, you see another family and all of a sudden you’d see these disconnected lights.

[00:36:23] Those speak to the neighbors and our neighborhood. Who’ve got something to offer. I feel like my principal will job is just to bring those people together to shine in the same direction, because the truth is, is that’s the difference between a lamp and a lighthouse. A lamp has one little light trend to do everyone everywhere and a lighthouse.

[00:36:42] This is when you get a bunch of those tiny little bulbs, all pointing together. That’s what makes a lighthouse so powerful. And our job is simply the conductor of that experience. It’s it’s saying, how can we, what, what mechanisms would we need to create and innovate to point people together in the same direction [00:37:00] to solve collectively the problems that we experienced collectively, because we all live here.

[00:37:04] That’s really the main point of all this fall.

[00:37:08] Craig Scharton: [00:37:08] And that’s how the national main street program ran and, and it is on arguably I would, I would be happy to argue, but the best revitalization, effort that we’ve ever had in the country, in fact, that success was its downfall. because other people were jealous of it, but statistically it was 2,500 districts in downtown across the.

[00:37:33] Across the country downtowns across the country, all revitalizing at the same time, using the same basic framework and, and capturing all of their data points together.

[00:37:45] Joe White: [00:37:45] And

[00:37:45] Craig Scharton: [00:37:45] every district. Had to have a main street

[00:37:49] Joe White: [00:37:49] director,

[00:37:50] but

[00:37:50] Craig Scharton: [00:37:50] that director didn’t come in and do revitalization. They coordinated the resources that would allow revitalization to happen.

[00:38:00] [00:38:00] And that, that difference was really big, but we would go into, a district or a neighborhood and they’d say, well, we don’t have anything and I’d go, well, your goal is to

[00:38:09] coordinate.

[00:38:10]Craig Scharton: [00:38:10] government, business nonprofits and the faith community. Can you coordinate those four things? And they’d be like, well, I think so.

[00:38:19] And I go, Oh no, I forgot education. And they’re like, yeah. Okay. Well, we’ll coordinate that. She was like, we’re going to be kind of busy. I go, I didn’t think you had any resources and they’d go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don’t have anything. I go, okay. So now remember with government, you’ve got federal

[00:38:35] Joe White: [00:38:35] state County.

[00:38:37]

[00:38:37] Craig Scharton: [00:38:37] city, you know, quasi workforce board, you know, all of these nonprofits. You’ve got these 47.

[00:38:45] Joe White: [00:38:45] Oh, I forgot media.

[00:38:46] Craig Scharton: [00:38:46] Oh, you’ve got TV, radio print. Oh yeah. with churches. How many churches? Oh, well we’ve got 19 different face center. Oh, so. You’re coordinating 2,500 different [00:39:00] resources and you don’t have enough and your community.

[00:39:03] What you have is all those lights you’re talking about that are all

[00:39:06] Joe White: [00:39:06] separate.

[00:39:07] Craig Scharton: [00:39:07] And if you somehow try to get those others to work together, you have a more than a full time job, but the result will never take off until you get those working together.

[00:39:17] Joe White: [00:39:17] And then it’s

[00:39:18] Craig Scharton: [00:39:18] exponentially powerful.

[00:39:20] Joe White: [00:39:20] Yeah. And what we’ve seen in the Jackson neighborhood.

[00:39:23] So we’ve only been here, really working, working pretty hard since 2015, but you know, we, our, our last association meeting, which we have every month over 50 neighbors come regularly to our association meeting. I mean, we have the finest association in Fresno. I put that against the low CDC, Esther, Carver eat bad, you know, so right.

[00:39:41] I mean, in words, those are probably the words. So we began to think, you know, as a, as a church, we, we obviously started a church called neighborhood church. We started a small business, which employs people with barriers to employment, started a nonprofit, the Jackson, CDC, and all sorts of programs and innovations throughout the neighborhood on every block and all that [00:40:00] isn’t run by me.

[00:40:00] It’s actually run by a very committed. Group of neighbors and growing group of neighbors who are just getting on board to a vision of a neighborhood made whole.

[00:40:08] Craig Scharton: [00:40:08] And so I get called about every nine months to a, by someone in the tower district going the tower district is full of crime and problems and this and this and this come talk to us.

[00:40:21] And I’ve gotten to the point where I very crabby by the time I show up and that a big crime, one, you know, crime, come talk to us about what to do about crime. I go well, there’s a neighborhood North of you called old fig and there’s a neighborhood South of here called the wall neighborhood. We both have neighborhood associations.

[00:40:41] We have an organization, we have a board, we meet together twice a month. They meet together twice a month. You’re right in the middle. What’s your association. Oh, we don’t have one, right? Yeah. There you go. There

[00:40:51] Joe White: [00:40:51] you go. Okay.

[00:40:52] Craig Scharton: [00:40:52] So quit complaining until you put

[00:40:56] Paul Swearengin: [00:40:56] together some

[00:40:57] Craig Scharton: [00:40:57] kind of a structure that would allow you to work [00:41:00] together and focus on solving your problems.

[00:41:03] I’m talking to you.

[00:41:04] Joe White: [00:41:04] Yeah. Heyo Elizabeth mass Cantor is an author and she writes you can’t build on broken. Let’s start with what’s good and build on that. And

[00:41:12] Craig Scharton: [00:41:12] some people really like the broken, it

[00:41:15] Joe White: [00:41:15] turns out

[00:41:16] Craig Scharton: [00:41:16] it’s really funny when they kind of figure it out. They’re the, they’re the ones who don’t want

[00:41:22] Joe White: [00:41:22] things to get better.

[00:41:23] They just want to complain. I see building on broken the same way dogs. Let’s see the vomit. It’s kind of like you can spend your life doing something disgusting or you can find what’s good and, and mobilize what’s good and maximize. What’s good for the wellbeing of others. To me, that’s a much more effective way about moving balls forward, you know, pushing big rocks up Hill.

[00:41:45] Craig Scharton: [00:41:45] Threw up in the kitchen, like

[00:41:47] Paul Swearengin: [00:41:47] before this

[00:41:48] Craig Scharton: [00:41:48] started and set off my beautiful mood,

[00:41:53] trying to eat guacamole while he did it.

[00:41:56] Joe White: [00:41:56] Oh

[00:41:58] Paul Swearengin: [00:41:58] no.

[00:41:59] Craig Scharton: [00:41:59] The [00:42:00] new low point of the podcast,

[00:42:01] Paul Swearengin: [00:42:01] the podcast just went to hell. Right there. That’s crazy. I mean, it sounds a little bit like, what you guys are saying is, and I think you, you said leveraging your privilege, that you, there, there needs to be instigator sometimes to tell people in a neighborhood, Hey, you can do this.

[00:42:20] You can change this thing and be a rallying point. And, and maybe what is sometimes our, our, our privilege, however, that worked out in education, or just having parents that were engaged in our lives or whatever, it might be different than somebody else’s life. It gives us an understanding of the resources that are available to us.

[00:42:38] That if there’s our landlord is not doing us right, there are, there are actually government resources to tap, to help with that. So it sounds to me like that’s a little bit of, of what you’re trying to rally together. No

[00:42:50] Joe White: [00:42:50] doubt. And it’s, I think it’s the responsibility that we have. Like, you know, Fresno is, we all know it’s fifth poorest city in America.

[00:42:57] You know, we have 22 of the highest concentrated [00:43:00] poverty neighborhoods, which, which makes, pushing big rocks up Hill, you know, very difficult. And, and so the truth, you know, the reality is we’re in such a desperate situation. It’s not the time. If you do have. resources available to you as I do.

[00:43:15] It’s not the time to sit in the stands.

[00:43:18] Craig Scharton: [00:43:18] what is it to be involved with revitalization though? And yeah.

[00:43:22] Joe White: [00:43:22] Oh, it’s amazing. Is there any better

[00:43:25] Craig Scharton: [00:43:25] thing that you can ever do? It is it’s

[00:43:27] Joe White: [00:43:27] amazing.

[00:43:28] Craig Scharton: [00:43:28] Most fun thing on the planet.

[00:43:31] Paul Swearengin: [00:43:31] I’m actually convinced that, and I do coaching with business people in wellbeing, and I’m convinced you cannot have a truly fulfilling life if you’re not pouring out of yourself into somebody that that can advantage you, that you’re, you’re not getting anything back other than the thrill of, of using what you have to help somebody else.

[00:43:51] I, I think it’s, it’s vital in having a fulfilling life.

[00:43:55] Joe White: [00:43:55] That’s true. One of my mentors has mentored. Also my dad, [00:44:00] is very famous named John Perkins. Yeah. Great. A great man, but one of the things he’s most famous for saying Billy others have said it also, but I think the point is true. It’s it’s in, in, you’ve heard it it’s, you know, teach a person to fish and the fish for a day.

[00:44:16]you know, right. But, but what John ends up saying is teach them to own the pond. Right? This is the idea of it’s actually, if we can, if we can create an environment where we don’t only benefit. So it’s not just about skill acquisition for others. It’s not just about producing for others. What others could not do for themselves.

[00:44:36] It’s actually not that it’s actually so much more profound than that. It’s building an equitable environment where we, we were me as maybe the leader of something can actually be as supportive for someone else’s wellbeing. They own the pond where then I don’t have to. Right. They own the pond that maybe I don’t own.

[00:44:55] Right. And so it’s creating an environment where my neighbors and that believing and knowing [00:45:00] they, they saw the wellbeing of the neighbor that they created. It. Wasn’t Joe White out there working his butt off. It was the neighborhood, which that’s a much more profound and eternal. I would say a few. Sure for our neighbor, if it all rested on my ability to just give people the info and data and skills that they need to improve,

[00:45:20] Paul Swearengin: [00:45:20] it’s not the missionary coming in saying I’m the American white man here to fix everything for you and make you me.

[00:45:26] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:27] Joe White: [00:45:27] That’s just, it’s another, that’s another form of conquest that kind of looks good on the outside, but we don’t want that. That’s that, that, that that’s, that should be enough tomatoes us.

[00:45:35] Craig Scharton: [00:45:35] You might not live forever or you might not live there forever. It’s really fun to see it continue on after you’ve left.

[00:45:46] You know, I was really looking forward to in Hanford. I started a series of events every Thursday night. And this was going to be their 20th anniversary. And of course now it’s probably not, not happening, but for 19 [00:46:00] years, it’s gone on without me and a man. I loved going back to that and see that happen and see people dancing and laughing and flirting and buying an ice cream for their granddaughter and all those things that happen at a, at a community event.

[00:46:15] I got to tell you it’s a great, it’s a great rewarding

[00:46:18] Joe White: [00:46:18] thrill. You know, one of the, one of the realities I think of having kids shows us that. it’s, it is rewarding when our kids get to the place where they don’t just know what to think, because we told them to think what the thing, but they know how to think.

[00:46:33] And, and, and they can make decisions, good decisions because of the, because of, because of the position that they’ve been given. I think in some ways, most of my neighbors, 90% or more. The only thing that they think about is the problems like every neighborhood, right? Oh, I wish the PD would pay more attention.

[00:46:51] Oh, I wish the government would represent a smart, Oh, I wish they would make someone pick up the trash. Why aren’t they doing the job? Right. This is every association everywhere. [00:47:00] And in some ways the beauty, I think of pursuing the wellbeing of a place in the way that we’re doing it is to say, what if actually we thought differently about, about the place that we all live.

[00:47:12] What’s good here. And what works and how can we organize those efforts to move government, to move PD? How can we organize what works? And what’s good to move, to bend the ears of those for whom we need to listen. What would that look like? And when, when we take that approach, it gives people a greater sense of ownership for their place.

[00:47:32] As opposed to me going in and saying, here’s all the problems we’re going to fix.

[00:47:36] Paul Swearengin: [00:47:36] And so you’re doing something really fascinating right now, your, your church neighborhood church is partnering up with another church in the neighborhood and you guys are, are just walking this thing out together.

[00:47:48] Joe White: [00:47:48] Yes. So I hope that your listeners have had a chance to go online and look at vision 22.

[00:47:53]there’s a website just type in division 22 Fresno, and

[00:47:57] Craig Scharton: [00:47:57] we do show notes and every time you do something [00:48:00] like that, you create more work for me.

[00:48:05] Paul Swearengin: [00:48:05] dot org.

[00:48:09] Craig Scharton: [00:48:09] to go to the website and copy the URL.

[00:48:13] Joe White: [00:48:13] There’ll

[00:48:14] Craig Scharton: [00:48:14] be a link in the show notes. I do the work. You don’t have to.

[00:48:19] Joe White: [00:48:19] We, we’re we’re in the Jackson neighborhood obviously, but one of the, so a little bit about visual 22 and then a little bit about our collaboration. as, as a church vision, 22 just recognizes that there are 22 neighborhoods in Fresno, which have high concentrated poverty over a majority of the neighborhood lives underneath the poverty line.

[00:48:37] And that’s. devastating at multiple levels. And, why, why should it be that the city has so many high concentrated neighborhoods like that? There are all sorts of reasons for that planning reasons and systemic reasons and so on and so forth. And so what vision 22 is saying, what, what if we stopped, looking at how many problem neighborhoods there are, and look, what if we look for concentration of light.

[00:49:00] [00:49:00] What if we looked instead of looking for concentration of poverty, what if we looked for concentration of light? What, what churches or institutions are in those neighborhoods? That if we brought capacity to, we could actually potentially make some difference. And so all across these 22 neighborhoods, there are churches and institutions and nonprofits who are doing good work.

[00:49:22] Envision 22 brings that light together to collaborate across denominational lines or religious lines to collaborate in such a way that we can move things forward. And so we’re in the Jackson neighborhood, but, just South of us is the Winchell neighborhood. Winchell is one of those 22 high concentrated poverty neighborhoods.

[00:49:41] And Jackson, wouldn’t be one of those, except for we make $2,000 per you know, like more than the, than the, than the dividing line. So she’ll be like $24,000 annual income. We make 26. so we’re so much better off than when she’ll. Let me just say that right now

[00:49:56] Craig Scharton: [00:49:56] and always feel better to be good, to be better than someone else.

[00:50:00] [00:49:59] Joe White: [00:49:59] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We’re just the second loser. Not it’s really great. so, in windshield, there’s a great church called para cleat missionary Baptist church, run by a great man godly. Yeah, I know it may be the longest name and I’m not sure if they fill it out on their IRS tax form. Cause there’s literally not enough boxes, but it’s, it’s a pair of cleats, missionary Baptist church, a cleat perfectly.

[00:50:23] It’s a great word. It’s a great word that comes from the new Testament. Although we never see the word parakeet, cause it just gets translated to something like spirit. But a pair of Cletus

[00:50:35] Paul Swearengin: [00:50:35] literally means one who comes alongside and somebody who walks with somebody else. I love that word.

[00:50:43] Craig Scharton: [00:50:43] That was great.

[00:50:44] My show notes. So I will look that

[00:50:45] Paul Swearengin: [00:50:45] up.

[00:50:47] Joe White: [00:50:47] It’s a great church tucked into the Winchell neighborhood, off of orange Avenue, just South of Ventura and neighborhood church has tucked right into the Jackson neighborhood just blocks away, but our shared street has been true. [00:51:00] So Edna, I got together and we said, look, there’s no such, there’s no version of wellbeing for Jackson.

[00:51:08] If Winchell doesn’t win. Also, it just means that if, if we kill it in Jackson and crime goes down, it just means that Winchell, anyone that wants to steal stuff on windshields, it’s going to come to Jackson and steal stuff and then go back and sell it and Winchell. So Winchell has to win too. Right.

[00:51:26] Everybody has to win. And so what would we do to make everybody win? What would have to happen to make everybody win? And it was with that question in mind that we begin to pursue a relationship Edna. Now, ed is totally different from me. ed is older, younger, ed is blacker. I am wider. ed is a Baptist.

[00:51:47] I am not Baptist. Right? So in every way, at least in every important way, we have very different life experiences. But for two years we just fostered relationship. We met regularly. We love each other. We prayed [00:52:00] for each other. We invested in our families together, and I began to see ed. Almost like a mentor to me because ed knows things.

[00:52:06] I don’t know. He’s had experiences that I’ve never had. And so not only did he tutor me in life, he tutored me in love. I watched the way that he loved his neighborhood. I watched the way that he loved his neighbors. He thinks in pastoring ways that don’t come naturally to me. And so I, I began to learn from him and if he were sitting here.

[00:52:24] He would say that he began to learn from me. I had some strategic, gifting and some visionary gifting. Some of those things begin to kind of come together and we found that our relationship wasn’t just about love for one another, but it was also. collaborative. We could take what I had and he could take what he had and we could put those things together and move things forward.

[00:52:43] And so over the course of a summer, for example, we brought our churches together. We actually stopped meeting separately. we started meeting together for a summer

[00:52:51] Paul Swearengin: [00:52:51] and that’s a fascinating thing by the way, because like you said, you guys aren’t the same denomination. And so they’re not only practical differences in how you do [00:53:00] church, so to speak or a church service, but, but even sort of theological and logistical issues.

[00:53:05] Joe White: [00:53:05] Oh a hundred percent and I won’t even get into the depth of theological difference. We had to lay down some stuff.

[00:53:12] Paul Swearengin: [00:53:12] Most churches will not

[00:53:13] Joe White: [00:53:13] do that.

[00:53:15] Paul Swearengin: [00:53:15] Those are non negotiable sometimes.

[00:53:17] Joe White: [00:53:17] Yeah. We decided what if we laid down? Things for a season. So what if we decided, what if we just didn’t lay them out forever, but for a season, a time of peace and we laid the is down and instead prioritized something that we agreed on love of neighbor.

[00:53:34] Cause we both agreed about that. We both wanted to love Winchell. We both wanted windshield, a wind. We both want Jackson loved Jackson. We both want Jackson to win. So, if we were able for a season to lay down our particulars to uphold something that we agreed on together, maybe we could do something together that mattered.

[00:53:51] And that’s exactly what happened over the course of a summer. Our churches got in a mass together, both envision and in practice. [00:54:00] And, what we have found is that we have vision for. Things that we can do together along our shared street, Ventura Kings Canyon. And, the possibilities now have, have exponentially grown for things that we can accomplish together because of what happened years before investing in relationship and choosing to lay down the things which mattered to us at the time for a greater thing, love of neighbor.

[00:54:23] Paul Swearengin: [00:54:23] Good stuff. And how has that been going? You guys enjoyed that?

[00:54:28] Joe White: [00:54:28] You know, we do, I have to say that, you can have two times that I do a lot of mountaineering and rock climbing adventure, and the mountains are my passion. And you may not know, but there’s different types of fun. type one. Fun is the fun.

[00:54:42] That’s fun when it’s happening. Type two fun is the fun that it’s only really fun. Once you get back to the car. it was like, wow, that was really, I was really flying a fine, I’m glad we did that, but you’re really glad to be back at the car. That’s type two fun time. Three fun are the things that happen that never really become fun.

[00:54:59] They just were [00:55:00] basically suffering. You think fondly about it, but you probably would never do it again. That’s type three. I have found that collaboration is type one fun. It really is. It’s the kind of fun, that’s fun while it’s happening. It feels so much better to lift heavy burdens with others. It feels so much better to work alongside people who are as passionate as you it’s so much better.

[00:55:24] And it requires sacrifice laying down things that you might really care about. It requires a listening and learning posture that may be foreign to some, it requires disagreeing about things and being able to talk about those without. Being offended, personally offended. It requires some skills, but if you can acquire those skills and practice them and utilize them, I have found it to be type one, fun, fun while it’s happening.

[00:55:51] Craig Scharton: [00:55:51] It has, and it has a long tail. You remember it for a long time. In fact, you know, so some people might have that [00:56:00] had had that in maybe a work environment or something else, but a period of your life where you really like look forward to it. And it was like energizing and a sense of group accomplishment or group struggle.

[00:56:16] Even, maybe you didn’t even win, but. Like, you’re all trying to gather. And, and, and, you know, some people have a few of those. Some people don’t have any, unfortunately, you know, some may be just one spike. I mean that you hear about it even from like soldiers, you know, and a completely miserable thing, but they’re all.

[00:56:37] Working together as a unit. It’s a, it’s really powerful and it, and it does stay with you your whole life. You’re like, you can identify them. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:56:49] Joe White: [00:56:49] Do this work.

[00:56:51] Craig Scharton: [00:56:51] You actually get to have it a bunch.

[00:56:53] Joe White: [00:56:53] So

[00:56:55] Paul Swearengin: [00:56:55] it’s,

[00:56:55] Craig Scharton: [00:56:55] it’s really cool.

[00:56:57]Joe White: [00:56:57] we had really good work. We have found that, you know, [00:57:00] comparison really is the thief of joy.

[00:57:03] So if, if you don’t collaborate with people, you will compare yourself against them. It’s only when you collaborate that you begin to love people. You see people, you see their good, you see what assets they bring and when you collaborate, you learn those things. And if you don’t, if you never get to the point of collaboration, you’re always stuck in the comparison and comparison will always kill your joy.

[00:57:25] Paul Swearengin: [00:57:25] Is that the

[00:57:27] Joe White: [00:57:27] minute you compare two things to the other joy,

[00:57:30] Paul Swearengin: [00:57:30] that’s so good. And it’s a lot of, a lot of the work my wife does now is, is getting the business community and the social justice community together. And they’re both very suspicious of the other and certain that the other is trying to take something from them, or we’d go a lot deeper than that, but get this idea of, of if the one crowd can say, I want to.

[00:57:53] To make sure the other is successful so that we can be successful together. and that my, my goal is to see us [00:58:00] as a whole be successful, what could happen together instead of just coming in, accusing each other and being sure that our site is all right, and we have to win. So collaboration, which at times has been such an overused word.

[00:58:13] It makes my teeth cringe when I hear it. But it, but in the way, in the context of you’re saying that their joy, it can help us be really successful.

[00:58:21] Joe White: [00:58:21] That’s true. True. Sorry, sorry, Paul. I didn’t want to interrupt you there. I just want to say, and across our great city, there are many examples of collaboration, especially with vision 22.

[00:58:31] And I encourage you again, go to the website and, and just see what’s happening. Cause it really is remarkable.

[00:58:36] Paul Swearengin: [00:58:36] Yeah. And I think what would be good for somebody to do that? Because sometimes we just need our picture broadened. We can, we can start living in our own little world and miss what’s happening in our whole city.

[00:58:46] So it’s a great opportunity for people. And so let’s do this and finish up the show.

[00:58:52] Joe White: [00:58:52] Now we take it home with Craig and Paul on the final countdown. Here’s Paul and Craig.

[00:58:57] Paul Swearengin: [00:58:57] Mike Craig had said what’s on my mind [00:59:00] segment.

[00:59:01] Craig Scharton: [00:59:01] In your mind,

[00:59:02] Paul Swearengin: [00:59:02] who should, should I go first, today? So conspiracy theories are on my mind today.

[00:59:08] And in the midst of COVID-19, we’re seeing many conspiracy theories that this was created in a lab in Wu Han China by bill Gates too. So he could control the vaccine and take over the world. I actually have very good smart friends who believe that is true. And have said sell on social media in the last 24 hours on a regular basis.

[00:59:32] And so I’ve been thinking I’ve done a lot of research recently on, on conspiracy theories and particularly why’s my why my people, the Christian seems so. Gung ho to jump into these things. And some of it is just being people of faith and, and sort of have a little bit of a pack mentality. you know, we, we go into these things and then, and then feeling like victims and somebody.

[00:59:57] So there’s sort of this victim mindset of there’s a culture war, and [01:00:00] somebody is trying to take away our religious freedom. You put all that into a mixed together, and then you add. Social media in the mix. And people start to get convinced that everything has some sort of dark underbelly under it, rather than just being a natural phenomenon of the world.

[01:00:16] And so I I’ve been brainstorming with some friends recently, like what do we do about this? Cause. One thing I’ve learned about conspiracy theories when you’re in them for awhile. Some of the things we fear in life are death, you know, or, or, or not being accepted by a group. And so you have to sort of step outside your group to stop believing some of these things.

[01:00:39]and the other thing is we don’t want to be wrong. Being wrong is a, is a real fear or being embarrassed. And so you’re not going to tell somebody in a conspiracy theory, you’re stupid for believing that stop believing, and that’s not gonna work. In fact, that’s gonna make them dive deeper into it. But so I I’m just starting to encourage people like, just take one step.

[01:00:59] Just [01:01:00] do one thing to question something that you’re believing. And for me, a journey of a, of a, of many years began with just an urging from sort of my faith belief of what if I stopped listening to rush Limbaugh for a little while. What if I, what am I just, I don’t know that this is serving me well, it’s kind of making me angry and not like people.

[01:01:21] And so I quit listening to rush Limbaugh and all of a sudden realized the sky was blue. I had forgotten that the sky was blue. And so I’m just asking you, you know, take one step, take five days and don’t listen to the media. You normally listen to your take five days and not in a way of like, I’m going to be in denial and get rid of these things, but start to think, okay.

[01:01:42] Is there a chance that something I’m believing in this season might be just a little bit skewed and, you know, and, and ultimately my step will be meet somebody who totally disagrees with your belief system and find out that they’re not bad people and start to work from there. But anyway, I’m just saying, come on guys.

[01:02:00] [01:01:59] Let’s let’s challenge our belief systems every once in a while. So we don’t go to this deep dark place.

[01:02:06] Craig Scharton: [01:02:06] Well, the, the former Christian agnostic agrees with you, Paul,

[01:02:15] I throw the whole thing in the question and, I keep the parts that I like, and I get to discard the rest and I. And I don’t do it because I’m afraid that I might burn in hell.

[01:02:27] Paul Swearengin: [01:02:27] I think it’s, I think it’s part of it. It’s Craig is that we’re, we’re afraid to have our, even our religious belief systems challenged.

[01:02:34] And I think we should do that on a regular basis is what I is my interpretation of the Bible. Right. You know, and those are scary questions that we never seem to feel comfortable to ask. And I think those are questions we ought to ask on a regular basis.

[01:02:48] Craig Scharton: [01:02:48] Yeah. I think if you, if you have faith, it should only get stronger in that and the things that matter, but, you know, separate the wheat from the chaff, [01:03:00] you know,

[01:03:02] Paul Swearengin: [01:03:02] that’s on your mind,

[01:03:03] Craig Scharton: [01:03:03] I’m a free thinker.

[01:03:04] That way I get to be. I’ve been, I was just thinking, you know, the coven thing,

[01:03:12]Joe White: [01:03:12] in

[01:03:12] Paul Swearengin: [01:03:12] order to,

[01:03:13] Craig Scharton: [01:03:13] keep a level of sanity such as it is, I’ve been doing lots of projects, but like quantifiable, especially stuff that I didn’t want to do. So I’m like, I carded these boxes around for, I don’t know how many years or how many moves, and just as kind of fun, there’s all bunch of memory lanes stuff to go through and I’m sending some old stuff to people that would enjoy it and want it.

[01:03:47] Donated a bunch of stuff to the neighbors and, and all of that. But, it’s, it’s, I think it’s going to be that the saving grace for, for this, shelter in place for me is like pick [01:04:00] projects. Like

[01:04:00] Joe White: [01:04:00] I’ve got this,

[01:04:02]Craig Scharton: [01:04:02] what did they call DG? Something. Grant decomposed, granite.

[01:04:05] Joe White: [01:04:05] Patio. And, if

[01:04:08] Craig Scharton: [01:04:08] you don’t take care of it, it it’ll get weeds.

[01:04:10] You know, all the little seeds get stuck in all the little tiny cracks now, all winter long. And so, so I look at that and I’m like, ah, that is just too big. So the other day I like dragged my hose across and I went, I think I could do this much tonight. And even if I want to go pass that house, I am not going past that hose.

[01:04:32] So I hold and raked and everything up until that spot. And I’m like, alright, now I’m just going to sit down and have a beer. And that’s what I did. And then the next night I did the same thing

[01:04:43] Joe White: [01:04:43] and it’s,

[01:04:44] Craig Scharton: [01:04:44] it’s really, it’s really funny to watch because I’m starting to do stuff that I never have done because it always seems so big.

[01:04:54] So, and I, now I have no excuse for not having the time to do it cause

[01:04:58] Joe White: [01:04:58] it’s like, Hey,

[01:04:59] Craig Scharton: [01:04:59] it’s [01:05:00] right. Afternoon guys. Awesome. What are you going to do this weekend? I’m going to say I have a bunch of projects. Cause they were all go

[01:05:09] Paul Swearengin: [01:05:09] crazy. It is the blessing of the season, the, the blessing of time. How many times have we said if I ever had time, I would blank.

[01:05:17] Craig Scharton: [01:05:17] Yeah. And so I’m, I am bound and determined to come out of this healthier, as long as I don’t get the virus. so sticking to the diet and, eating healthy food and doing our best, not to order too much stuff online, being grateful for

[01:05:33] Joe White: [01:05:33] work.

[01:05:34] Craig Scharton: [01:05:34] And, and just, I’m just going to keep doing a bunch of projects and this place is gonna look better than it ever looked before.

[01:05:42] Paul Swearengin: [01:05:42] Good stuff. Alright, Joe, what’s on your mind.

[01:05:45] Joe White: [01:05:45] You know what? Paul has a few things that are bothering. The one has been this podcast. You’re there, there is no reason why you should look as young and good looking as you do for your age. That bothered. That really bothers me why it would be that you could look the way that you do.

[01:06:00] [01:06:00] The fact that you’ve lived some years, I don’t know.

[01:06:03] Craig Scharton: [01:06:03] And you notice, he said that to Paul, not to me

[01:06:11] living my life. There is no way I should look as well as I do.

[01:06:17] Joe White: [01:06:17] So Craig it’s offense intended it’s offense intended

[01:06:23] Craig Scharton: [01:06:23] or taken completely. I don’t know.

[01:06:27] Joe White: [01:06:27] The second thing, Paul is actually something that concerns me. That’s the, the former editor of Christianity today, is named Andy crouch. And he wrote an article recently where he’s arguing, I think quite successfully that we should not consider COVID-19 just as like a blizzard, it’s bad.

[01:06:43] And then the snowmobiles come in and plow everything away and everything goes back to normal. He should, he says, we should think of it more like the beginning of winter. And he’s thinking specifically about organizations, every organization, businesses, small businesses, nonprofits and churches who really do need to be asking questions about the future. [01:07:00]

[01:07:00]how, how to do business, so to speak, moving forward. And I’m concerned, number one, that many organizations are not having those difficult discussions on are just expecting things to return, to baseline normal. but number two, he’s now projecting in a recent, in a recent survey that churches are, can expect a 50% drop in giving, nonprofits.

[01:07:20] I believe a 60%. Thank you. I’ll have to fact check that, but somewhere around there and that’s deeply concerning. And so I I’m thinking about that. But the last thing that I’m thinking about is I, I would maybe call this, I’m thinking a lot about, the hope that I’ve seen in our city. during this COVID-19 season, I’ve seen businesses support each other and advocate for one another.

[01:07:42] I’ve seen people continuing to pay their, hairdressers and their gardeners and to buy coffee, and to pick it up. And, and take it home. I’ve seen businesses pivot and, you take out, I, I I’m impressed. I’m I’ve seen churches, go basically all online and make that pivot, [01:08:00] to produce the kind of content their congregations need in this time.

[01:08:03]I’ve seen churches step up and serve people’s practical needs. people’s church and st. Restaurant church and neighborhood church, and online on Clovis Hills and, and, and on-ramps, and so many others have stepped into the space of food and caring for vulnerable people. I’m so, I kind of hope filled by the way that I’ve seen Christians.

[01:08:22] And, and, and people step into that space. And so, I’m not dismayed, I think our best days are in front of us. And I think the last month of sheltering in place is a testimony to the way people have leaned into uncomfortable space and done. What’s difficult for the wellbeing of others. I’m proud to be a resident.

[01:08:40] Craig Scharton: [01:08:40] Yeah. Well, I, I think, you know, with individuals, right. Stuff is going to happen to you. Right. You will get sick. You will lose a business. You will have people die around you. You will have a divorce, your bankruptcy, like all those things happen to people like

[01:09:00] [01:08:59] Joe White: [01:08:59] all the time. Right.

[01:09:02] Craig Scharton: [01:09:02] And stuff. It’s not a question of whether stuff will happen to me.

[01:09:07] The question is what are you going to do about it? Are you going to get knocked back permanently or are you going to find a way to grow from it?

[01:09:16] Joe White: [01:09:16] And then

[01:09:17] Craig Scharton: [01:09:17] extrapolate that to organizations, whether they’re businesses, nonprofits, churches, and then also neighborhoods and cities. So like

[01:09:28] Joe White: [01:09:28] every, every thing that happens

[01:09:31] Craig Scharton: [01:09:31] is going to be an opportunity to grow.

[01:09:34] Or to take a,

[01:09:37] Joe White: [01:09:37] take a fall and

[01:09:38] Craig Scharton: [01:09:38] enter your head and stay down, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s what do we want to do? You know, you know, how are you going to put your feet shoulder with the part and get ready, you know, to take it, or, or are you just going to throw in the towel? And I think that’s the message it’s got to be, how are we going to get better from this.

[01:09:59] No, [01:10:00] we can have better systems. How are we going to have better communication? How are we going to have better care for each other? How are we, you know, I talked to Scott Miller from gazebo the other day. They can’t keep vegetables in. They’re getting three deliveries of vegetable plants today

[01:10:16] Joe White: [01:10:16] and

[01:10:18] Craig Scharton: [01:10:18] planting gardens.

[01:10:19] He goes, he goes, he’s famous for his roses. He’s like, I can’t sell a damn Rose. All of a sudden, the entire a hundred plus years of our nursery has been about these roses, but everybody, all of a sudden wants vegetables, which only used to take a couple of

[01:10:35] Paul Swearengin: [01:10:35] tables.

[01:10:37] Craig Scharton: [01:10:37] So, you know, how do we, how do we do this?

[01:10:39] How do we become more resilient? Maybe we get. Well healthier. Maybe we get a little more vitamin D working in the yard. You know, maybe we meet a couple of neighbors across the fence and basket of oranges for him. I mean, it’s just like, there’s an opportunity to get better. There’s a lot of pain. No doubt.

[01:10:58] Just like I said, the [01:11:00] individuals, but. You know, you’re going to grow from it or get knocked down

[01:11:04] Paul Swearengin: [01:11:04] by well, and that’s it. It’s a, it’s a great biblical principle you’re talking about there. My agnostic friend that suffering produces perseverance, perseverance, character and character produces hope. And, and so yes, we acknowledge that people are hurting in the midst of it and that’s yeah.

[01:11:23] But, but we we’ve become a society that is trying to avoid pain at all costs and avoid discomfort. And you hear it now and people saying. Come on, you know, why do I have to stay home if it’s just to save a few thousand lives? And I think we need to step back and say, Whoa, wait a second. Where did that come from inside of me?

[01:11:42] And, and look at, you know, to me, the pictures of air quality being changed radically by this should make us, we should all be saying right now, how can I use my car less? Because if just the short time of us all not driving is changing the air that much. [01:12:00] Then what can I do to make this a more permanent lifestyle to change it?

[01:12:04] So I think there’s like, exactly, like you’re saying acknowledge the suffering, carry the suffering together, but understand collectively this is going to produce something hopeful for all of us. It’s good stuff. All right. Now that we’ve preached that sermon, let’s take up an offering.

[01:12:27] Well, Joe White of neighborhood church and the Jackson community development corporation. Thanks for being with us.

[01:12:34] Joe White: [01:12:34] Thank you so much for having me too. You guys are amazing. You guys are the champions. Love you, both

[01:12:39] Craig Scharton: [01:12:39] great. Hanging out with you on a Friday afternoon.

[01:12:42] Joe White: [01:12:42] Thank you so much.

Two Guys Discuss Advanced Peace Fresno and the Prevention of Shooting Deaths Jun 09, 2020

Marcel Woodruff and Aaron Foster join the Two Guys to discussion the program called Advanced Peace Fresno to limit gun crimes in Fresno

Paul and Craig discuss Systemic Racism and Troubled Times in Our Country Jun 04, 2020

Listen in and Paul discuss the activities of the past few days in a troubled America

TRANSCRIPT: 2Guys_P&C Racism_050120

[00:00:00] Two Guys Open: [00:00:00] This is the two guys talkin’ Fresno podcast. The podcast with two guys talking about Fresno. Your hosts are Craig Scharton, a lifelong Fresno who loves his community, even though it drives him bonkers

and Paul Swearengin, a transplant Fresnan, who’s lived in Fresno for more years than he hasn’t and he wouldn’t live anywhere else. It’s time

for two guys to talk. Fresno. Here’s Craig and Paul on the two guys talking

Fresno podcast,

Craig Scharton: [00:00:29] Smooth Operator!

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:34] we should call it the shirt. Two old guys trying to manage technology.

Let’s do the show.

Craig Scharton: [00:00:39] All right. So

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:42] yeah.

Craig Scharton: [00:00:44] What a week it’s been, do

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:46] we have anything to talk about?

Craig Scharton: [00:00:48] yeah, the entire world looks like it is coming apart at the scenes.

Paul Swearengin: [00:00:53] And I wonder if that’s true or if just our reactions to everything are coming apart at the seams. [00:01:00]

Craig Scharton: [00:01:00] Yeah. Well, I don’t know that we are boys in a real, a unifying place for all of this to begin.

Paul Swearengin: [00:01:07] Well, the good news is we have a unifying president who will bring us all together in a very calm, calculated thought through way.

Oh, is that, is that not the, not the case? Yeah. How about that? How about looting and shooting is where you go on the night as president of the United States as is this is going on

and like I said, a very calming influence at the top of it all. In our country. And so we’re all good.

Craig Scharton: [00:01:35] Yeah. Well, so, what kind of reflection have you been doing over the last week?

Paul Swearengin: [00:01:40] I’ve been reflecting on for quite some time on what is my role in systemic racism in America?

have, have I done everything I can to be aware of where I’m a part of it aware of where I can, can engage to be a part of [00:02:00] ending it. And so I woke up really after the event at Miguel res his apartment. And said, okay. I, I, I can’t be silent about issues that are so heavy on my heart. And then when I saw the George Floyd video, I was just like, okay, I, I have to do everything in my power to end this because this is a mindset.

What I see there. And, and I think we, we, if we give ourselves the break of saying, well, that was a bad cop, doing a bad thing with three bad cops around him. I give myself permission to not question where I am and where we are as a culture. And it may very well be that that’s a seriously racist cop that had his neck on his is me on George Ford’s neck.

But I think as much, he’s probably a product of a system in our country that sort of tells [00:03:00] ourselves there is a group of people that are a little different than the rest of us. And when dealing with. Those people, we have to deal with them differently. And I don’t think, I think many of us would say overtly, we don’t do that.

I, you know, the, I have black friends, I have Hispanic friends. I’m good to them. They’re just people to me, but there’s. There’s something in our system that sort of says, there’s a group of people who are just a little bit different and have to be treated just a little bit different. And then if you’re particularly, if you’re a cop and you’re dealing with.

High stress situations on an ongoing basis, having to make very difficult decisions and, and you low grade have this belief system already because you just live in it like we all do. And then there’s some training about, well, when confronted in a particular way, you have to respond in a particular way.

It sets us up for these types of moments. And I think if we don’t. [00:04:00] Take this opportunity and this season to say, okay, I’m going to lean into the truth of that and, and see where I fit into that. Then we just set ourselves up to continue to have these over and over again. And so bottom line, and then I’ll shut up is I think we all are asking why does this keep happening?

And when I’m training somebody on emotional health, I’m saying, whenever, you’re saying, why does this keep happening to me? You are the common denominator in all of those situations. And you have to start to think, is there an underlying root cause? And, and so I think we just can’t say, man, there’s another bad cop that we have to deal with.

No, instead is there’s a system that’s, that’s impacting us all on an ongoing basis. So these things keep happening again until we confront it, recognize it, acknowledge it and dig through it. We’re going to continue to see these events.

Craig Scharton: [00:04:51] Yeah, well, and I think, I think it is, both us, the stomach problem and something that we all can individually [00:05:00] challenge ourselves at.

Right. I, I’ve never really been a person that really cared about anyone’s gender or sexual orientation or race. I mean, it’s never. Seemed interesting to me to care about people that way. or I guess other people would say I don’t give a flying whatever,

vague. Thank you. That’s a good precedent way to put it.

And I, I really think it’s, it’s boring to view the world through that lens, but I know that we can always do better and we can always think about things, you know, As change happens differently and more sympathetically than we ever were comfortable doing before. So just constantly pushing, but you know, that’s should be all of our goal is hopefully would be to continually become more conscious beings, in all aspects of our life.

And this seems [00:06:00] like a particularly should be a baseline, thing that we’re working on. But. so there’s that one thing to me about, you know, I can’t change anyone else. It doesn’t mean you don’t stand up to wrong when you see it or hear it. but I also know that if I work on changing myself to become better, that’s the one person that I have some minor amount of direct control over.

but then the systemic issue is just the one that. You know, it just, you know, my fear is that this happens and that we still don’t do more to change and more to make things more equitable for our people to have opportunity. And, and that we just keep going through these, these spasms without any without, well, I shouldn’t say without any change, but it’s not enough change that to really make this an equitable city state country.

Paul Swearengin: [00:06:57] Yeah.

Craig Scharton: [00:06:59] And I also don’t [00:07:00] know what, if we have a clear goal to find. So if you don’t have a clear target, it’s hard to, it’s hard to know where you’re headed. Right? Right. There’s an S all of sports is about finding a way to, to have aim at a goal or a wall or a wa whatever it is, bowling pin, you know, whatever that is.

And I just think we need to have a really clear goal that we can all buy into. Which

Paul Swearengin: [00:07:33] one would that be?

Craig Scharton: [00:07:35] To me it’s always been, you know, if you look at like the city to say, Fresno’s, you know, our goal, our vision, whatever you want to call it, our mission is to create a community where everyone has the greatest opportunity, real opportunity to become their best self or.

Achieve their highest goal or be the best person. They can be like fill in your own language that way. [00:08:00] And if you look at the statistics and say, does every kid born in Fresno have an equal real shot at becoming the best person they can be? You would say, well, according to these statistics, there are people in certain neighborhoods, but.

Are not achieving that goal. There are people of certain ethnic backgrounds that are not achieving that goal. There are people with, socioeconomic challenges that aren’t achieving that goal. So to make that goal a reality, you could actually measure some things to show that we’re making progress toward that goal.

And that would feel more that feels, I mean, Yes, protest. Yes. Show outrage at an injustice then, but ultimately finding ways to fix, fix the system so that it is more equitable. Shouldn’t be the real goal

Paul Swearengin: [00:08:59] of [00:09:00] fixing. Did I just flip my camera around? Did you see that? No, I didn’t see that. Well now it’s my sign.

Can you read it straight or is it going backwards?

Craig Scharton: [00:09:09] No, it’s going straight.

Paul Swearengin: [00:09:10] Okay. Look at that anyway. Sorry to interrupt there, but, I think you’re right. And so I I’ve been grieving some, and I, I think we’re in a, a really important season because I’ve been asking myself for years. If, if I was at Selma bridge, you know what?

I walk across with Martin Luther RiNo, doctor dr. King. Or would I have chosen the comfort of my living room while it was going on. And I think in some ways, and this is clearly not the same situation and I don’t want to overplay or underplay anything, but I do think it’s a season where we get to decide if we’re willing to stand up or not.

And so part of what I’ve been grieving is watching social [00:10:00] media, seeing people that I know. Taking the way out, I think. And what I mean by taking the way out is if, if we look at the protests and we say, ah, look at the thugs who are out there, looting and stealing. And I think we give ourselves an out. To hear the message of the protestors.

And, and so I had, you know, guys on, on Twitter the other night here trying to you’re showing me video of a building on fire. Okay. Now, are you going to call them thugs, Paul? Now, are you going to call them thugs or, or, you know, another video of some other occurrence now, are you going to call them thugs and, and trying to pin me in a place to say, okay, well, those guys are thugs.

Because I think the danger is if we’re not willing to live, live in the mess of what’s happening. And I, and I’m not in no way endorsing. And I think everybody knows, I shouldn’t even have to stop saying no way, endorsing throwing something through the window at a [00:11:00] target and stealing a TV. But if we allow those.

Things to get, get a distraction of the ongoing narrative of, Hey, these are people who feel a sense of injustice for centuries and just haven’t had a voice to be able to voice it. And so they’re out and sometimes that’s going to get messy for us. Then we’re going to miss the opportunity that’s at hand.

And in some ways I believe we’re taking the out and saying, you know, dr. King, just wait a little while longer. It’s going to be okay. It’s going to work out. W two, which Martin Luther King says, Hey, it’s the white moderates that really disappoint me. I’m I, I thought they would come to our aid. So I do think it’s a day where people like you and me, Craig, and I know your background is different than mine, but who have some space of privilege and culture to stand up and speak out and say, I’m going to sit with those people.

Be counted with them, even if it costs me. [00:12:00] My reputation or, or something else. And that’s really what, as I’ve talked with my friends, from communities of color, that’s what they’re asking is like, just speak out on our behalf because there are people that are going to hear you that won’t hear us. And so really that’s what I’m trying to do.

Craig Scharton: [00:12:17] Yeah. What something, you know, it’s funny. Cause we were, we were where we in a lope Twitter war and someone. Called, bigots or something like that.

Paul Swearengin: [00:12:27] Two white guys talking Fresno. Was that the new name of the show?

Craig Scharton: [00:12:31] Yeah. and it was, it was another white guy calling us bigots, which is interesting. you know, I, I honestly, I try to live a life of.

Of being kind to people, your camera just went off.

Paul Swearengin: [00:12:47] Yeah, that was, that was me. I’m still hearing.

Craig Scharton: [00:12:50] And, and just, you know, I try to, I’m trying to learn how to love everyone, even people I disagree with and think they’re wrong. You know, we’re trying [00:13:00] to have a show where we. Model civil discourse, even with people that we might agree with 10 or 20% or 30% disagree, the other, what we still manage to hold conversation.

We tried to include a variety of perspectives or community. I mean, I, I, I know we can always do better, but I also try really hard. so. You know, I, I do think we stand up to injustice when we see it. That’s, that’s something that we’re called to do. I think, you know, you always go back to the, to the, second world war and, and Nazi Germany and people had to stand up and you probably were going to pay the price for standing up.

But the same is true of the first, first nations people that were here, before, you know, our country got discovered. and the reservations and the Japanese internment camps and slavery and, [00:14:00] and the list goes on and on and on. but you know, I, I, I want to challenge me, but also everyone else to look beyond, you know, whatever tribe we’re in, liberal, conservative, ethnic, you know, one thing when I hear people from, from the race who was at the wrong at the bad end of genocide, Wanting us to remember their genocide.

And I think there are genocides happening all over the world right now. And not one genocide was bad. They’re all bad. You know, injustice is bad everywhere. So how do we stand up to that and start breaking down those walls and in calling it out when we see it and really trying to make this systemic change.

Paul Swearengin: [00:14:48] And it does, it starts with me, you know, and it starts with me refusing to be tone deaf. And, and this has been a learning experience for me really in the last couple [00:15:00] of years. And I’m embarrassed to say that, that it hasn’t been something that registered with me enough in the past. And so as this stuff is all coming down, talking to a friend of mine who, a young adult woman that works with.

Mostly his Hispanic, young men and women. She says, she says to me, and to my wife, you know, you you’ve got people and maybe she said white people. I don’t know. Let’s, let’s, let’s not be afraid of difficult language at this time, but you know, you’ve got white people who are upset because they’ve been out of business for a few weeks.

And I’m not, I’m not downplaying that that’s a big thing, but she’s like for a few weeks and they’re feeling this sense of injustice and some are even going and protesting at state houses and capitals and other places. She said, my people have been feeling that injustice for hundreds of years, you know, welcome to my [00:16:00] world on an ongoing basis.

And. And again, in those conversations, you hurt here. Things where you, you start to say, Oh, well, that’s not fair. Well, that’s not fair. And we can parse those through, but I think only we can parse those things through, after we say, you know, you’re kind of right. I’m willing to hear your story and know that your story is different than mine.

And that’s what I really think we’ve got to set aside the tribe, like you say, and be willing to hear the other person’s story. And I think that’s really important in this season.

Craig Scharton: [00:16:32] Yeah, well, and I hear, you know, and, you know, do, do you, you know, do you lump women into all being like this or men? You know, we make fun of men for being stupid or smelly or whatever, like cave men or whatever.

you know, it, all of those things have an effect when we think them. And when we say I’m certainly. so even like just [00:17:00] the dumbest jokes about those kinds of things, are funny jokes just in terms of Tony that all down, changing our own perspectives, trying to model better behavior, you know, even when we don’t understand it, you know, we’ve talked about the pronouns thing earlier.

Don’t I still don’t totally get that just seems like. Oh man. Now there’s one more thing I have to do. And I got that yet. I get up my wits in sometimes, but if that’s important to someone else, then I need to say it’s important to me too. I mean, it’s just cuts across everything. Gender, race, age isn’t Oh, people love to make fun of old guys now.

I mean, there’s not a time that I can’t turn on late night TV while they’re making fun of, Oh, grandpa, this and grandpa that. Well, you know what, I’m a grandpa. I I’m just as much of a person as someone who is not yet a grandpa or grandma. [00:18:00] So I mean that doesn’t help. Like let’s just knock it all off and just treat everyone as a human being as an animal on our planet, that everybody has feelings of mom and Bangladesh.

Loves her child, as much as the mom and Fresno loves her child. Yeah. Let’s count it all down and start trying to love each other. I mean, isn’t that? What your religion preaches?

Paul Swearengin: [00:18:29] Yeah. Two commandments love, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. And then Jesus defined your neighbor as. That that’s subhuman species that you don’t think deserves God’s love.

And I, and I, I say that. you know, saying that he was talking about a Samaritan, which was a race of people that lived. And it’s interesting because the, the, in the Bible, the Jews were an oppressed people. They were oppressed by the Roman empire, and then [00:19:00] they looked around and they go, look, here’s the Samaritans.

We can oppress these guys. And, you know, so even the oppressed are always looking for who they can oppress. And then Jesus says, I’m going to make that Samaritan the hero of the story. And so that Samaritan would be whomever. Any of us thinks is less worthy of love than other people.

Craig Scharton: [00:19:20] A little farther in the story say, just loving your neighbor.

Isn’t even enough. You need to love your enemy.

Paul Swearengin: [00:19:25] Love your enemy. I

Craig Scharton: [00:19:27] think there was a pretty revolutionary thought. I mean, I don’t think that went over very well.

Paul Swearengin: [00:19:33] I

Craig Scharton: [00:19:33] don’t know. I don’t, I don’t think he gets preached that often on Sundays.

Paul Swearengin: [00:19:37] Well, they do, but they do it in a way of like, you know, love the sinner, hate the sin now, you know, and I’m like, I think we’re hating the sin a lot more than we’re loving the center.

You know, we’re finding ways and, and even more so if we’re talking about the Bible, there’s a passage in Matthew 25 that says, Hey, you know, [00:20:00] everybody, all humans are coming, you know, to this judgment day. And. And it says, okay, the people that are going to get to go into heaven, okay. You guys are the ones that get to go to heaven.

And they’re like, well, why didn’t we get to go to heaven? And it’s because you, you closed the naked, you, you fed the sick, you went to prison and visited the prisoner. And these other people are like, wait, we were really good people. He’s like, yeah, but you didn’t do these things that I asked you to do, which was take care of the poor visit the prisoner in prisoner.

So. Taking care of the oppressed, humbling yourself to hang out with the marginalized, being willing to lay down your rights for others. That’s what Christianity is. And, and again, that’s a little bit of why I’ve been grieving because I think that is something that we’re losing in the mix of our ideology that has gotten so mixed up with our theology.

We have kind of lost our ability to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the prisoner in prison. So

Craig Scharton: [00:20:58] the other thing that I’ve been [00:21:00] thinking about is, you know, there are ways through policy and program and law and others to make things more equitable. you know, so you can, you know, like we did a, local, you know, local business, purchasing or needs to make it.

Easier to lift up a local business who maybe was a little bit higher on the bid, but now there’s some wiggle room and we choose the local business over the out of town business. if we can, you know, there are other agencies that have laws, and programs designed to hire people, in, communities that are not as economically strong as others.

And we need to enforce those, but, but even, you know, in terms of like police departments, I mean, I, what I’m going to be looking for is are the city council members who are legislators going to start passing policies? Like you [00:22:00] can’t pull your gun out of that holster, unless it is in the, you know, an effort to save an innocent victims by foo is.

You know, having their life threatened currently at the, that moment, you know, if you’re carrying off, someone’s carrying off a child, you know, you know, you got to intervene to protect an innocent person, but you know, even to watch that George Floyd video, I mean, the first time he pulled that gun out of his holster, I’m like, what was he pulling his gun out?

Like that’s w we talked to Jerry Dyer about that, like, I remember cops saying they never in the line of duty, pulled out their, their, their weapon. And now it just seems, you know, and his response was, things are more dangerous now. Well, you know, I, I just, I think the police are going to have to be on the frontline of saying, this is here to protect other people.

but we’re going to figure out how to use our words [00:23:00] and our, and our, Brains and, and other body parts besides our hands and our fists and our boots and our weapons on people. I mean, it just it’s. I would like to see those policy changes come in. So

Paul Swearengin: [00:23:18] man, I’m stuck on, so today, I’m asking people to take one step in this and sort of made this logo it’s okay.

Take one. Step two. Challenge yourself in this area. And one of the steps that I took this week is I called my city council member. Mike carboxy, who’s the representative of my neighborhood, who I think is, is, is a very upstanding guy. And I just ask him, I asked him kind of the questions you’re saying, I say, how do we make sure this doesn’t happen in Fresno?

What are you doing as my elected representative to make sure. And, and so we had a conversation, it was really good. And he was asking, asking sort of my input and, [00:24:00] and the. The thing I was asking him is a, when are we going to hire the police chief? What does that process look like? Is it going to be an internal hire or external?

You know, who’s going to have input into that and how are we going to make sure that hiring reflects the desire of Fresno to have community policing? And policing, that’s not based upon sort of this systemic problem that we’ve seen around the country. I think it’s a really important thing. And I actually think it’s a really important thing that that hiring take place before the new mayor comes in.

And that’s not specifically aimed at a, at a, at a negative towards the new mayor, but because he has been the police chief for so long and. And, and as a part of the, the police force for so long, I feel like a civilian should make that decision mayor. If I can say that [00:25:00] word, if mayor brand and the group of advisors around him should ultimately make that decision, so that we make sure that that hiring reflects the desire of us all.

To make sure systemic racism is not a part of our police force. And I, and I think, and then also to make sure that transparency is King with our police force and that training to make sure they’re not feeling like I’m going to treat this population different than that is, is in it and all of those things.

So w I. That was my first step, just talked to my city council member. And I would, I would encourage everybody just to call and ask your city council member, like, how are we making sure that George Floyd doesn’t happen in Fresno? Because I’m a little bit concerned of what could happen if that happened in Fresno,

Craig Scharton: [00:25:49] what it has happened.

And I’m surprised that the protest didn’t happen when that young man was shot in the back of the head, running away from officers. No, that’s what I mean, [00:26:00] that’s, that’s an unacceptable policy right there. That’s unacceptable law. I mean, that is not, you know, I know that is that’s you just can’t do that.

And I, I. A guy might get away from you and, and a might be a bad guy and you might need to really, get the troops out there to try to try to find him and put his Bilbo face on a billboard, trying to find a guy who ran away from the cops, but you don’t shoot him running away from you. I mean, so why weren’t we more pissed off at that?

I mean, I know some people were, but, but, yeah, so someone just said, yeah. Independent police auditor. that really, you know, that that is, is one little piece and a very big cultural change that needs to happen. Tell that happens. We’re going to keep finding people that feel, not feel that are left out of the system.

And,

Paul Swearengin: [00:26:56] well, in one question that somebody asked me about that situation [00:27:00] is why did it take so long for the body cam footage of that incident to come out. And the body cam footage of the waffle house was, was out the next day. You know? And, and so I don’t think I don’t, I don’t know what I think of play for transparency has to be everything and, and the police force of Fresno and Clovis and every other town should want to be the most transparent.

Organizations in the world because we are giving you, we, the people you actually work for us, we’re the customer. And we’re asking you. Well, we’re giving you permission to have a weapon that gives you a choice of life or death for a human being. And so you should want there to be the most transparency of any job out there because it protects you.

It protects you from suspicion. It protects the beat cop from everything feeling like we’re closing ranks a [00:28:00] little bit around this stuff. And so transparency should be. Number one for any police force. We, we definitely want a police auditor. We want it to be, very transparent and very open. So that should be one.

And the other thing is, and again, I’m trying to get facts on all of these things and I’m talking to as many people as we can, but we even had the optics a little bit of. Of this freedom rally at city hall and, and many of my friends from communities of color asking like, wow, it just seems like when, when a white group has a city hall event, the rules are just a little bit different than when somebody else has, has a rule.

And, and I’ve asked and, and some of it is optics and, and city hall is saying, no, that is absolutely not true. We do not handle those differently, but you know, I’ve seen the one thing was. You know, the interim chief hall got his picture taken with his arm around somebody at the event. And the optics of that are just, and without a [00:29:00] mask, without social distancing, the optics were terrible.

And those matter. And I had some idea that he tell me, it’s just optics, fall, stop worrying about it. I’m like, no, the optics matter. They matter. And if, and if a white group is having an event and they park a truck on the sidewalk in the fire lane, and nothing happens to them, there’s no citation. Those things matter.

And now they matter more than ever. So we just need our leaders to be really aware that we’re in a very sensitive time and be open to being really transparent and, and discuss these things.

Craig Scharton: [00:29:40] And it was only a few months ago that a young man, was over at the Phoenix apartments, a block, not even a block away from me here.

So Rimmer, they showed up to a party and he just started punching the guy. I mean, you know, punching the citizen. I mean, this kind of [00:30:00] stuff. I mean, we all need to be mad about this all the time, because it’s not acceptable. and you know, we do have the body cam footage now, which we didn’t use to have.

And I think that. That one quote, you know, was saying, you know, this didn’t just start. We just started filming it. I think it was a will Smith attributed to will Smith quote. But, but it’s true. you know, we’ve, we’ve got to hold this accountable and, and, someone was saying, you know, there’s a law and order, you know, every campaign runs online order.

We have, you know, judges running with billboards that say, you know, I will be a tough law and order judge. I don’t want you to be tough. I want you to be fair. Right? Right. I mean, it shouldn’t be acceptable for a judge to go in with that attitude. same, you know, the, the district attorney talk about optics.

We’ve got optics about charging dr. on something that nobody gets charged with having the optics on that [00:31:00] area. Oh, the person from the other person gets from the other party gets treated differently than people from this party do. That’s a bad optic. I mean, there’s a lot of bad optics to go around. And I think your, your approach is really a good one.

We need to go to our council members and say, look, this has to get under control. And, and, and if the police union tells you, if you vote this way, we won’t support you. You need to tell us all that they’re threatening you with political support or lack of political support, because you’re trying to do the right thing.

Right? So, you know, this, I can tell you, everybody wants to police union support so they can have that bad John there on their campaign sign. But,

Paul Swearengin: [00:31:45] and that’s part of the problem I think is right. And this is what I talked to my car bossy, and I don’t want, I don’t want to. You know, I think he did great.

We had a great conversation. And even when we sat and talked with him on our show, [00:32:00] we asked him, how are you going to say no to the people who finance your campaign? And, and the Fresno police officer’s association has so much political power and financial power in elections. How, how do we, so the only way to change what our elected officials feel is, is they have to hear from the citizenry and.

A friend of mine told me the other day that he, he was told when he was asking questions about policing. And this is not Mike carboxy by the way, that he was told by somebody in city hall, white people just don’t care about this stuff. White people don’t care. This is all you liberal, dark skin people.

And so my thing would be. White skin person. You need to call your elected official a person of privilege person that lives on the North. End of Fresno, particularly conservative Republican Christian friend call. [00:33:00] Your city council member and say, I don’t just want tough policing. I want good policing that makes sure this doesn’t happen in Fresno because I, I think you’re right.

I think if an incident like that happened now, I don’t think it would go quietly into the night. I think it would be, it could turn into a fairly ugly scene in Fresno.

Craig Scharton: [00:33:19] Yeah. Well it’s it’s and yeah, this is when people are oppressed. They’re going to react. We talked about that and that’s how our country got formed.

Because people felt that

Paul Swearengin: [00:33:31] you and I both posted that the other day, didn’t we? And isn’t that ironic? I, cause I hear people upset about what they’re seeing going around in our cities right now. But you and I both posted separately the same thing as, Hey, white European, when we were oppressed. When we felt injustice, what did we do?

We went and got access and start busting things up and throwing tea into the Harbor. And today we go, yes. Busted tea party were awesome. [00:34:00] Yeah. So oppressed people will do that.

Craig Scharton: [00:34:02] Yeah. yeah, it was, to fight that the English government, the British government that we were under was to be a trader. I mean, you were, you were breaking the law by being an American

Paul Swearengin: [00:34:15] Patriot.

Craig Scharton: [00:34:16] So, you know, it’s, it’s how people are going to react when they’re not included in the system. We had a speaker last year, the San Joaquin Valley manufacturing Alliance. I can’t remember his name offhand, but he was, it was one of those really great speakers, you know? yeah, that just gets everyone going.

Makes you think and makes you laugh and all of that. So he goes down to this front table, you’re like, has a table answer question, and they answer it first. He’s like, you guys are awesome. And he goes off the stage and he high-fives every person at the table, except one about the last one he misses and then goes back up on [00:35:00] stage.

And everyone in the audience is like, you left that guy out. Like, and his whole point was like, That’s just such a little thing. Like I high five, nine out of 10 people, but everyone in here could sense the injustice of leaving someone out right out of 400 people. Everyone like held their breath and they’re like going, no, you forgot.

That’s the guy we know actually. And the point was just really clear about how, how good we can be at spotting unfairness. And if we practice it.

Paul Swearengin: [00:35:39] I just received a text from a friend. And so I just went online looking. So the president made a speech, just a few moments ago, I guess, and was standing outside a church, holding up a Bible, declaring himself the law and order president.

Craig Scharton: [00:35:55] Oh, nice. And has,

I’m convinced.

Paul Swearengin: [00:35:58] It’s that he’s going to [00:36:00] deploy troops to dominate the streets. so I think one thing that we have to resist is. W we unfortunately don’t have a leader right now. That’s bringing a unifying message. But unfortunately we have a president who has seen an opportunity, like how can I get people to forget about 103,000 dead Corona virus people.

I can be the law and order president against those. Those people out there on the street, those bad people who are threatening. And, you know, we’ve seen this before in our history, Richard Nixon, you you’re the silent majority, you’re the law and order people. And, and that has been an ongoing narrative of a power class that is afraid to lose power.

And we just have to resist being manipulated by that stuff. I think the president of the United States, if we had a strong leader as president of the United States, right now, he would be bringing a message, a unifying message, a message calling [00:37:00] for justice, for people who have suffered injustice, he would be focused on the George Floyd case.

But instead we have a. A reality TV show guy as president who, and I, and I’ve somewhat resisted just out and out, you know, talking about my disgust with the president, but right now I think he’s doing exactly the opposite of what. A president ought to be doing. And, and I think it’s very transparent why he’s doing it because he needs to distract from the tough things that have been going on.

And he’s found this as a great opportunity. It was Mexicans who were rapist when he was running in 2016 and now it’s going to be those people and you guys are law and order. And I just ask people resist being manipulated by that kind of language.

Craig Scharton: [00:37:44] Yeah. So we had a couple of comments and Nicole Zeba our friend.

Okay, should she has so many comments, which I would love. We need to go on a hike so we can talk about all those, but she’s talking about the personnel, commissions that we have at the [00:38:00] city. And, and that is not a very trans transparent kind of a process. and that the chief has, recommended determinate people before.

And they overturn that. I have direct experience with, with, an employee who, inflicted violence on a. On a citizen and terminated them. And that got overturned. yeah, I mean, you know, between the unions and the civil service, you know, you know, I know everyone would like to have a job that they can never get fired from, but.

Somehow we all know better when we need to perform well in our job. And it’s like, but what if you have an arbitrary boss? Well, that’s welcome to the rest of the world. We all have arbitrary bosses, and we all have some that are better than others, but, just letting people feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it is, is not helpful either.

And it really destroys, The good performing employees morale when they see the [00:39:00] bad employees, not being dealt with, it really is a drag on the entire system. So, and it always seems to protect the, the biggest problems we can get Dion here, talking about that. I know she’s got a union background with what the civil employees, but she also told me when, when I became a department director, like, you know, we’re going to make sure the process is square, but you have people that you’re going to have to deal with.

You know, so that, you know, that’s, that’s all we should do is want the process to be fair. But if the chief said, we need to get rid of people, or I need to at least put people on probation and they’re overturning that, that’s something we, we need to have a certain set of eyes, you know, watching that and to make sure that that is right.

Veronica, John McAllister. suggested our sentence, you to hurt someone had suggested a database for officers who have been found guilty of using excessive force so that they can’t continue to be employed as police officers in different cities or [00:40:00] States. I would think that would be good information.

Paul Swearengin: [00:40:04] That would be good. Wouldn’t it?

Craig Scharton: [00:40:05] Yeah, there was that one city, in the South Valley. I can’t remember which one it was. Was it McFarland or another one of those that. They had such a hard time getting police officers that they were hiring a bunch of, fired police officers.

Paul Swearengin: [00:40:19] Oh my goodness. So yeah.

Craig Scharton: [00:40:21] Substantial part of your police force made up with people who have been, let go for a variety of reasons. yeah, I mean, we’ve, we all liked this idea of all of this personnel stuff. You know, there’s nothing that American come out and say, or city manager can say. As soon as there’s a personnel issue, it’s just that they’re not going to say anything.

They legally can’t, but at some point, you know, maybe we do need to know who’s doing well and who’s not doing well. And you know, the rest of us. No.

Paul Swearengin: [00:40:54] Well, they, you know, they just need to find

Craig Scharton: [00:40:56] beyond the wall and we know if we’ve achieved our goals or not.

[00:41:00] Paul Swearengin: [00:41:00] Again, transparency is key and that’s only going to happen if citizens demand it.

Tammy Lou Han Stanislaus says just sitting back and doing nothing is not helping. Either. And she says not pointing fingers because we all do it. So that was how I started coming. One thing too. I would say Craig, and I’m, I’m still learning a little bit about this and you may know more about it than me, but, but the idea of that, that police officers are judged based upon arrest.

Yeah. It’s like a, it’s like, it’s like a ticket cop handing out, you know, you have to hit a quota of tickets wouldn’t we rather promote good driving than then reward the punishment of, of bad. And so instead of. Judging a cop that had a great day by the number of arrests they make and having FBI databases that, that talk about crime based upon arrest and arrest being the good goal of a police officer, measuring something [00:42:00] else, you know, measure the time you interacted with the community and had a good interaction measure the time that you deescalated a situation and didn’t have to make an arrest, you know, find different measures of.

of ways to judge the, the, the job of a, of a beat cop in a police officer, rather than just how many arrests did you make the day? How many bad guys did you put away? And, and maybe it would start to change some of those interactions.

Craig Scharton: [00:42:28] Well, and, and, you know, I think a lot of people have pointed out president.

It’s not unique in this is that the police department becomes. You know, public safety becomes a hundred percent or 90% of your entire general fund budget. And at that point you’re not investing in the other things that can make this a more high quality of life, equitable place to live. and so again, I’d go back to our mayor and policy makers and say, You know, [00:43:00] what are we doing to prevent people from feeling and being alienated from the economic system?

What are we doing to promote a quality? What are we doing to promote opportunity? what are we doing the higher, you know, hire people from different backgrounds to make sure that we have a representative and diverse, workforce police force. you know, like Joe Castro, I think is doing a great job of reaching out to the outlying communities to make sure that, that, they’re living up to their, their goals of, of educating our community.

I think we have some people doing that really well. We’ve had on, that dr. Goldsmith, Thun, You know, there are people out there that are doing it and they need to be held up to as you know, people that are doing a good job in our community at the same time that we’re pointing fingers. Cause pointing fingers only goes so far.

I don’t, I, if someone wags a finger in my [00:44:00] face or people for a good reason, cause it’s not really going to get the best part of my attention. So the effective.

Paul Swearengin: [00:44:06] It’s going to depend on what we, the citizens do. And every election, every candidate wants to get the FPO endorsement. They want to be the

Craig Scharton: [00:44:16] strong RDA

Paul Swearengin: [00:44:19] standing against crime candidates.

And so obviously there’s polling that shows that’s what people are going to vote for them. They’re going to vote for their own personal safety and they believe the way to get personal safety is to have more cops on the street. And, and I’m not saying we don’t need more cops there, there are ways to look at that.

But if that’s what we demand from our elected officials, that’s what we’re going to get. And that’s, so we have to start saying, I want, I want something a little different than being proactive about that is how we change things. Well,

Craig Scharton: [00:44:54] yeah, psychological, testing of people, especially that you give weapons to, [00:45:00] you know, I think is really important.

I also understand that the police, can very much, feel under siege and that’s not where we make our best decisions. I know, years ago on our ride, along that I did back in 1987 or so, you know, I just noticed that, in the police car that police officer, either nobody looked at them or, or they, you know, Gave him the Spink guy.

And, and so I’ve made it a point since then. Whenever I see a law enforcement officer, I always wave and smile with them and I want them to just have this planted seed of, Oh, that’s right. There are nice people out there. Oh, don’t look at the world as my enemy. because we do, we do feel that, and I don’t want them to be back into that corner.

Cause then they’re not making the best decisions, but I can tell you living in the Lowell neighborhood that quite often the officers [00:46:00] come in here and it is like they’re entering a war zone and there’s no warmth or interaction, or they’re not looking out their car windows. And we know we need to break that down.

You know, I don’t know, you know, community. Policing never, was, you know, it became this big programmatic thing that had a price tag to it, but I think there’s a better way to do it where you’re just constantly reminding people that this is our community. We love our community that. The vast majority of people of color and the polling that I’ve seen wants to have a safe community.

Also, it’s not, it’s not unique to one app this city to want to have a safe community, but also to have one where you can walk around and know your neighbors and have good acts. That’s the education and careers and jobs and businesses as well.

Paul Swearengin: [00:46:54] Interesting thing about what you say there though is my, my African American friend would [00:47:00] tell me that.

They tell their kids don’t look at cop in the eye as he’s driving by, you know, you don’t want to catch his attention. So that sort of

Craig Scharton: [00:47:11] plays

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:12] a game plays against what you’re talking about there though.

Craig Scharton: [00:47:14] So how is my sound on here, Paul?

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:17] Well, I’m seeing Eric there. So I mean, you sound fine to me, but apparently we’re a little uneven, but you, but it sounds good on my end.

So zoom is a different animal than, than what we know, but I think we’re ready to do what’s on my mind. Right?

Craig Scharton: [00:47:30] Yeah. And I told you at the beginning, what I was going to do.

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:33] Okay. So you want to say, I don’t remember. I wasn’t listening when you told me

Craig Scharton: [00:47:41] that wasn’t me either. That was 45 minutes ago. How the heck

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:44] would I remember that?

And let’s see what was on your mind. I know it’s on my mind.

Craig Scharton: [00:47:49] Okay. Well, what’s on your mind. I have a lot on my mind actually. Yeah. Talk about pandemics or anything today.

Paul Swearengin: [00:47:55] I know it’s an amazing, that’s been totally wiped off, off the screen. Isn’t it? [00:48:00] I have a couple of things, but my, my light one is I got a call from Jake yesterday.

Jake called me yesterday. No, Jake, my hair guy, Jake. And he said, I’m cutting hair again, Paul. And so on June 15th, Jake is going to cut my hair for the first time in months and I can’t wait. I’m so excited to get a haircut.

Craig Scharton: [00:48:30] So are you going to like wear a mask and all of that?

Paul Swearengin: [00:48:33] Hell yeah, of course.

Absolutely. And Jake is going to wear, I think he’s going to have the full plastic mask thing, so yes. Yeah. Yup. Yup. Is he, is he buying it locally? you know, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ll have to ask him that.

Craig Scharton: [00:48:50] So there is a real, okay. That’ll be a good thing. That wasn’t what was going to be on my mind, but I’ll, I’ll use this one.

I don’t know why this one should have come up first. For the last couple of weeks, I’ve [00:49:00] been reaching out to find the manufacturers who are making PPE personal protection equipment. And, there are a lot of local manufacturers that are doing that. And, and in many cases it is saving their business and keeping people employed.

So now that all of these businesses are going to be getting the acrylic dividers and the conference room. And everyone has to have masks. A lot of businesses have to have an inventory of different kinds of masks and hand sanitizer. If, if all of the government agencies, quasi government agencies, nonprofits, businesses, and individuals would commit to buying it from a local source where we’re making it, not just selling it, but making it okay.

Okay. The people working in these plants are as diverse as you can imagine. I mean, they’re probably some of the most diverse places [00:50:00] there are. We can keep people employed and keep businesses running and keep our tax base strong. So we can’t afford to talk about parks and all these other things by choosing to get our, equip our PPE from a locally manufactured source and anyone who wants to get the list that I have, C Sharpton, C S C H E R T O n@cmtc.com or you can and get us through the Facebook page.

And when we do look at it, we’ll, I’ll send that list out to you of the, of the locally made products and it’s everything from, you know, Tom, MATOC working with his daughters, making masks to, you know, some of the big companies that we have, Dumont printing and. Total concept enterprises. And, Riley’s brewing is making like 30 to 40,000, bottles of hand sanitizer as keeping their people employed.

[00:51:00] So if you really love your neighbor and you know that your neighbor wants and needs a job, let’s keep them all working by not buying stuff from China and doing the things that got us into this mess in the first place.

Paul Swearengin: [00:51:13] Yeah, it shouldn’t. We have learned by now that that buying things from China is, was not our best idea.

My friend, by the way, Phil and Reesie Skye have put a list of, of, businesses owned by people of color that they’re encouraging people to try. So I’ll link that from our Facebook page as well. So people can check that out, as a, as a way to take a step toward, Healing inequality in our community.

Can I read something to you real quick? Sure. So I wrote a blog and posted it on my website today called a white moderate stew. You have to choose a side. I read it. Oh, you did. Okay. Well, I just want to read the very end of it. So this is, this is my commitment and all of this. And I say today, I choose to lean into the idea that it’s not [00:52:00] those people who are the problem.

It’s me. I choose to demand of myself that I be humbled and turned from my ways before I even think about asking those people to change today, I choose to sit with them. Those people. I choose to hear their stories and their pain, even, even when it pinches my heart and feels unfair. I choose to mourn with them in their pain and will rejoice with them.

As we begin to see transformation in our city region, state, and country today, I choose as much as my heritage and DNA will allow to no longer see people as those people, but instead become one of them today. I am. Those people. And to all my friends of privilege, I say the day of fence sitting is over white moderation can no longer be a place of comfort.

My friends, this is the day to choose whom you will be. So that’s my commitment today. That’s

Craig Scharton: [00:52:58] that’s, really well said, [00:53:00] and, and I want to challenge everyone, not, I mean, I, I promise you, I challenged myself every day. to try to be better and to grow and to learn, and to help help others. And I never do it to my full capability.

I would always like to do better, but I also see a lot of comments directed at everyone. You know, I, I don’t like any racial group calling another racial group, anything or putting in one group. Making fun of another group, one group thinking that all people that are of that group are the same and I don’t care which group it is.

It’s we need to start seeing each other as human beings and more than human beings as, as animals on this planet. Right. it doesn’t do any good to be killing factories of pigs in Iowa. [00:54:00] You know, by, by suffocating them all. I mean, these are just all these acts of violence out there. Just breed more violence.

So, not all black people think the same, not all white people think the same, not all, Latino people think the same, not all Catholics. Think the same, not all atheists. Think the same. you know, it’s just, we have a wide variety. We have a big spectrum of, of how we can, operate as, as humans. So let’s just try to figure out how to be a little bit better at it.

Give each other some grace doesn’t mean that you allow bad things to happen. but you know, let’s just. 10% more care and almost all the damn problems go away. We can all just go a little bit more for care for others and even care for ourselves. Get a little more sleep, eat a little more healthy exercise, a little bit [00:55:00] more.

Challenge yourself to try to communicate a little bit better than you did yesterday. Listen a little bit better than you did yesterday. Yeah. Husbands and wives. Yeah, we did mention that earlier. D yeah, I mean, a lot of that stuff, I grew up with thinking it was Spanish and I don’t think it’s as funny anymore, but again, it goes in all directions.

Don’t just look for the fault of the other groups. We have to police our own groups and say, that’s not okay to castigate any group of people. They’re all people.

Paul Swearengin: [00:55:37] And, and I think getting out of your bubble, learning from people that are different than you, read a book. I I’ve been recommending Malcolm.

Gladwell’s talking to strangers to people. I just started an audio book and I’m sorry, I don’t know how to pronounce his name. Is it Tom? Ta-Nehisi coats? Who has a book called between the world and me. I just started listening to it today. It’s painful, [00:56:00] painful, painful, but, but I think it’s going to be well worth the listen.

And I loved, I went to the Universalist Unitarian event on Friday night. and my daughter went to the event yesterday, down at city hall. And in all of all, I just love, I love the respect. That they were asking from everybody. And even my daughter was saying she was so proud of the young people of Fresno yesterday.

they, and the, and the organizers of the event were speaking and they said something about mayor elect dire, and people started booing and some were cursing and, and the organizers were like, no, no, no, no, no. No, we want the mayor elect to hear what we have to say, but we are not going to treat him that way and they shut it down.

And, you know, and I think those are the things that we do. and, and, and honoring one another. But I also am a big believer that the people that are from the greater power group, particularly our elected officials, you have to be willing to bring your humility [00:57:00] to the table first. Before you expect others to lay down their guard in some ways too.

So I, so I do say, yeah, we all have to treat each other the same, but at the same time, some of us have more responsibility to lay down our weapons and turn our, our swords into plowshares before we expect other people to,

Craig Scharton: [00:57:17] well, back in the old days, we had, a place shooting and, the city council had a meeting, in that neighborhood.

and we didn’t run the meeting. We had a facilitator, facilitate the meeting for us so that we could just sit there and listen for hours. As people told us their stories about what was happening. So I really I’m hoping that our leaders, have this on the council agenda as a topic that they, that they, diligently look at the policies that are allowing these things to continue to happen.

And change them and that they enact new policies designed to prevent this from ever happening.

[00:58:00] Paul Swearengin: [00:58:00] If I could say one other thing, too, in all of this that maybe opening up another can of corn, but the next time we have a measure P vote or something that would improve the parks in Fresno. When think of these.

Events. What, what building more parks in Fresno is all about is that we have less parks than almost any other city of our size in America. And our most impoverished neighborhoods have the least of them available that are. And habitable and good. And, and so building more parks is one way we attack the systemic nature of poverty and how poverty feeds into to crime and all the other things.

So next time you’re voting on something like that. And you’re just saying, Oh, I don’t want to have more taxes. Think about what, what am I investing in here as a city and a community. And I would particularly say to our elected officials, [00:59:00] If that measure doesn’t work for you instead of just attacking it and in sometimes using falsehoods to come against it, find a way to make it work and figure out how to make it work.

So I think that’s important in this discussion as well.

Craig Scharton: [00:59:15] Yeah. Education, job, access, business access, all of those things are measurable and important and we know change people’s lives. so all of those things need to be on the table for our policy makers. We pay a lot more attention to what happens here than we do in Sacramento or Washington DC.

Cause they’re the ones that we get to meet and see and, and have some kind of relationship with us. So really let’s tell them all this needs to be on the agenda until real things start to shift. And real opportunities are made and real problems go away. So the thing that was going to be on my mind since we do that as a non-sequitur

Paul Swearengin: [00:59:54] yeah.

Craig Scharton: [00:59:55] You told me about this guy, who, who, was a famous Christian [01:00:00] singer. I didn’t know who he was. Hawk. Something is the name of the band,

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:04] Hawk Nelson, apparently. And I’ve never heard one of their songs in my life sent me

Craig Scharton: [01:00:08] surprised it make me neither. So I did go to a Keith Green concert when I was, when I was a young Christian Guy and I really liked him.

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:19] He was very talented, died in a plane crash, unfortunately.

Craig Scharton: [01:00:22] Yeah. So, but, so you told me about this guy. And so I read his posts about, you know, the difficulties he had and leaving his religion and, and having questions about it that caused him to, to leave it. And I thought that was really interesting.

And so I sent him a message on Instagram and he responded to it. Oh, wow. Yeah, I can’t, I, I, I wish that I could pull that out. I think I could pull that out.

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:50] Remember the tenor of what he said.

Craig Scharton: [01:00:53] Well, I’ll tell you what I said. Let’s see, John Stein guard is his name.

Paul Swearengin: [01:00:59] Yeah. So [01:01:00] John, as you’re looking that up, if anybody hasn’t heard this story, John Stein guard, famous Christian musician, whom I’ve never heard of in my life, but apparently he’s famous came out this week.

Came out is probably not the

Craig Scharton: [01:01:11] right tool. I think that’s really accurate. He was coming out to his family and his friends and his fans. Yeah.

Paul Swearengin: [01:01:18] Yeah. But he wasn’t coming out as, as queer. He was coming out as no longer a believer in God. And this is a famous Christian musician and he says, I no longer believe in God.

So take it away. Correct.

Craig Scharton: [01:01:30] Show what I wrote to him was rebuilding your understanding of yourself and the universe as a special act. It is an open time, cherish it, you will see and understand things in ways that a fixed belief had blocked this openness comes and goes. Even the Buddha didn’t stay in a perpetual state of Nirvana.

Once you’d achieved, it grow as much as you came peace and love. And he just said, I love this. Thank you. That was it. Ah,

Paul Swearengin: [01:01:57] very good. Well, that’s nice of you to reach out and [01:02:00] encourage him like that, where we’re all on a journey and I’m, I’m journeying through my ideology and my theology and

Craig Scharton: [01:02:08] politics.

Paul Swearengin: [01:02:10] I hate it and love it all at the same time.

Craig Scharton: [01:02:13] Yeah, no, but it’s when you do that, you do tend to see things and understand things in a new, in a deeper way. It’s not fun, but it’s really important, you know, that’s. That’s why I signed up for DBT for a year. I want to challenge myself to learn new tools at, you know, anyone that’s going to a counselor or a 12 step program.

I mean, those are the people that are just challenging and growing and, and, I really admire them all. And if you’re one of those folks out there doing that, trying to make yourself a little bit better, so the world can be a little bit better. More power to you. It’s not easy if you’re, if you’re working and have a family and going back to school at night, you are a bad [01:03:00] ass.

That is really freaking hard to do. Like if you’re opening a business and, and understand what the risk, isn’t just a little four letter word, it’s something that really means a lot good for you. And whether it works or not, you know, good for you for trying and, jumping into the world with both feet. you know, there’s, there’s a lot of people out there that are doing some really good things and, and, we need, you know,

Paul Swearengin: [01:03:27] and I understand that living and believing the way you’ve always believed is a more simple life.

And as humans, we naturally fight against being told we’ve ever been wrong or believed anything wrong. And in some ways, I can attest to this. In some ways you lose your community as you start to believe differently. And that’s a very hard thing. So sometimes, you know, particularly if they study Colts, you know, people choose to be deceived over losing their community.

They, they say, okay, yeah, you’re telling me truth, but I [01:04:00] would rather not see it. I would rather just be there. But I do promise that there is more fulfillment when you’re pursuing. Believing truth and wholeness more than what you’ve always, always known. So if there is a, there is a light at the end of that tunnel, I promise.

Craig Scharton: [01:04:17] Yeah. Well, and if you’re a Democrat and you think all Democrats are great and, and everyone else is wrong, then you’re not looking in hard enough. And if you’re a Republican doing the same, that’s hard enough. If, if you. If you’re a fundamentalist and you look at your Qur’an or your, your, Bhagavad Gita, your Bible, whatever it is.

And one word you find out isn’t true that it accidentally got stuck in there as a typo. And your entire worldview is going to fall apart because of those simple, you know, words that one piece can’t be removed or the whole building falls down. Then that is [01:05:00] just, that’s a scary place. You don’t want to be it’s it’s, it’s just too precarious to operate that way.

it is much better to look at it and say, Hmm, what are we doing wrong? And what can we do better? Let’s challenge ourselves. Let’s grow from this. and if we don’t grow from it, then we have wasted another loss life. So let’s grow from it.

Paul Swearengin: [01:05:26] Words to finish on right there. Okay. All right, Craig, love you too, man.

I appreciate you, having this conversation and letting us continue to talk things out, letting me be a part of it. And, and everybody who’s joined us and listened to in this week. Jabbered our way through it.

Craig Scharton: [01:05:44] Yeah. Well, we’re just trying to all figure this thing out before we croak, right.

Paul Swearengin: [01:05:48] Yup.

Craig Scharton: [01:05:49] All right.

Paul Swearengin: [01:05:49] Yep. Yep. Okay, man, we’ll see you soon. I look

Craig Scharton: [01:05:52] forward to it. Thanks to everyone for joining

Two Guys Talk to City Council Member Nelson Esparza Jun 04, 2020

Two Guys

Nelson Esparza

City COVID phases

Stoicism

Restaurant profit margin

What metrics do we use for phases in COVID.

CTEC High School

Enhanced Infrastructure Finance District

EIFD Fresno

Ron Loveridge-Former Riverside Mayor

Nelson’s Town Halls

Fresno Budget Projection

Fresno CARES Act Fund

What’s On My Mind

Last Black Man in San Francisco

Back to the Roots Mushroom Kit

Last Dance-Documentary

Fresno Local Restaurants Have To Go

Opening Churches: Two Guys Talk to Pastor Jim Franklin May 21, 2020

Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno-Jim Franklin

Show Notes

Pastor Jim Franklin

Cornerstone to Open May 31

US Constitution

Some Churches Spread Virus

Surgeon General on Masks

Manufacturing COVID 19 Safety Guidelines

Judge Opines Churches Should Be Treated the Same as Other Businesses In COVID 19

Waffle Shop in Fresno News

What is A.A. doing in Coronavirus?

What is Herd Immunity?

Wilson Theater

Cornerstone Community Care Foundation

Mike Der Manuel Podcast Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno Episode

Jim Franklin Radio Show

Paul and Craig Talk Covid Craziness in Fresno May 14, 2020

It has gotten a bit scary and crazy when even wearing a safety mask has become a polarizing subject. Paul and Craig discuss in this latest Two Guys Fresno discussion.

Brian Wise, Covid-19 Survivor May 08, 2020

What is it really like to contract the Cover Virus, hear it straight from someone who’s had it.

Talking Shelter-in-Place Sports with Guy Haberman Apr 30, 2020

What’s a former Fresno Sports Radio guy to do now that’s he’s working in the Bay Area and can’t go outside? Paul and Craig talk to Fresno State grad and ex-940 ESPN anchor Guy Haberman.

Single Episode Sponsor: Fresno Ag Hardware

Picture of Violet Kate Scharton on Craig’s Facebook

NFL Draft 2020

Fresno State Wins College World Series

Fresno State Football Loses to USC (Reggie Bush Era)

Chris Pacheco

Kelly Carr

High School Eligibility

Dialectic

Fresno Ag Ian Williams – Single Episode Sponsor

Paul & Craig Say BS A LOT! Talking Coronavirus Will Make You Crazy Apr 23, 2020

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Road Less Travelled

Instacart

Snowflake Designs (Masks)

Dumont Printing (Face Shields)

Root Access/Pi Shop/Idea Works Collaboartion (Face Shields)

Katie Zenovich

Community Medical Foundation

Kaiser: How to Make a Mask

Garry Bredefeld also expressed frustration that the homeless, “many who are involved in drugs and spreading disease,” are exempt from the city’s shelter-in-place order. (Fresno Bee)

Jonah on Veep

Contagion Movie Trailer

Jesus and the Disinherited, Thurman

Epictetus Discourses

Gazebo Gardens

Focus on Emotional Well-Being During Shelter in Place: A Discussion with Fresno Christian Superintendent Jeremy Brown Apr 07, 2020

Fresno Christian Superintendent Jeremy Brown tells of the stress of making decisions for students and families during this season. He also shares how the pressures of leadership and the importance of Core Health. Paul Swearengin shares from his coaching in the Core Leaders Network program about tools people can use to tend to their mental well-being while being sheltered-in-place with others.

Paul Swearengin’s Core Leaders Network

Jeremy Brown

Fresno Christian Schools

Fresno Christian Schools, Board of Directors

Jim Yovino

Bob Nelson Episode

Bob Nelson Ukulele Sunday Video

Meditation Research

Front Porches

Robert Wood, Generation Commercial

Calvin and Hobbes

Bill Watterson

Consciousness

The History of Fresno’s Revitalization: A Discussion with Ashley Swearengin Apr 02, 2020

Former Fresno Mayor Ashley Swearengin joins the Two Guys to reminisce with Craig about the history of Fresno’s revitalization process and what it looks like going forward.

Single Episode Sponsor: Leadership Fresno prepares community and business leaders by exposing them to an expansive look at the facets that make up Fresno County. The class spends one day per month looking into agriculture, arts and culture, law enforcement, goevernment and many others. This class has chosen to help the Fresno Discovery Center as their project.

Rob Brown

Pamm Zierfuss-Hubbard

Leadership Fresno Application (Apply before May 22)

Fresno Chamber of Commerce

Show Notes (in order of appearance)

Dave Pomaville’s Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno Podcast

Ashley Swearengin’s Wikipedia

Ashley Swearengin-Central Valley Community Foundation

CA High Speed Rail

Lenny Mendonca’s Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno Podcast

Lenny Mendonca Twitter

Dr. Michael Porter Industry Clusters

Fresno Design Alliance

Fresno Downtown Academy

Urban Entrepreneurship

Fresno Creative Economy Council

Brookings Report more concentrated poverty since the recession

Ashley Part 2

What’s On Our Mind?

Craig’s Regenerative Agricultural Op-ED in the Fresno Bee

The Future of the Planet is the East: Individulaism AND Community

What is Germany’s Export Percentage?

What is Church?

NonPartisan Evangelical (NPE)

Tavern Theology

Talking Shelter-In-Place with Nicole Zieba Mar 25, 2020

While we’re sheltering-in-place let’s share stories about how we’re getting through it all, together. Nicole Zieba, the City Manager of Reedley joins us to give info on how our local governments are dealing with the situation. Join us as Paul and Craig have this lively conversation.

Need Info? We Talk Covid-19 with Expert David Pomaville of the Fresno Cty Dept. of Public Health Mar 17, 2020

Why is Covid-19 worse than the common flu? Why the drastic measures? How long will it last? We get the latest scoop from an expert who first heard of Covid-19 around New Year’s Day. Don’t miss this helpful discussion. Also, Paul and Craig talk elections and helping one another in our “socially isolated” podcast.

Where the Heck is Fresnoland? Two Guys Talk Land Use with Dani Bergstrom Mar 12, 2020

Recorded at Community Media Access Collaborative’s (CMAC) fantastic podcast studio.

Fresnoland

Drought Proofing Valley Cities

Fresnoland Newsletter

Fresno Passes General Plan (Channel 30)

Fresno Considers Changing New General Plan

Gazebo Gardens

Eric Field

Visalia Downtown

What’s On Our Minds?

Paul: Dairy Girl Network

Generational Perspectives and Conflict

Edgar Bunt and Imago

Craig: Downtown Loft in Fresno (You can stay here!)

Paul and Craig Talk School with Fresno Unified Superintendent Bob Nelson Feb 27, 2020

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton sat down with the Superintendent Bob Nelson of Fresno Unified School District, the third largest school district in California! Enjoy these 3 Guys Talkin’ Fresno Unified.

Vote YES on Measure M!!!

Bob Nelson, Superintendent of Fresno Unified School District

Nikki Henry, Chief Information Officer, Fresno Unified School District

On Instagram: bobnelson_fusd

Fresno Unified Bond- Measure M

Bob’s YouTube with Ukulele

Richard Burrell and Live Again Fresno (helping kids on Motel Drive)

What’s on our Minds?

We’re Talkin’ Primary Elections Feb 20, 2020

Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno-March 3^rd California Primary

Single Episode $99 Sponsor-Naomi Hendrix, Raw Fresno

Kaiser Farmers Market Scoop’s Soups and More

Paul and Craig talk about the upcoming California Primary. Who do they like for the Democratic Presidential Primary? The talk about Fresno Mayoral Candidates Jerry Dyer and Andrew Janz. The spend some time on the congressional races, too.

Tavern Theology

Bill Weld for President

Paul’s Nonpartisan Evangelical

Trevor Noah-Bernie Sanders Show

California Prop 8 Gay Marriage

Jerry Dyer Podcast

Andrew Janz Podcast

GV Wire Mayoral Survey

Devin Nunes Sues Cow on Twitter

What’s On Our Minds?

Aubry Huff

Plant a Summer Garden Now

ACLU defends Ku Klux Klan

Two Guys Talk of Fresno’s Visual Arts Community Feb 13, 2020

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talk with two local visual artists (painting and sculpture) who have been successful beyond our region. Robert Ogata and Mark Rodriguez talk about what it’s like to be an artist in Fresno and beyond, the beginning of ArtHop in 1995, the local arts scene, and downtown revitalization.

feature photo courtesy of Community Alliance

Chris Colfer, Portrayed Kurt Hummel on Glee

First Single Episode Sponsor!!! Liz Sanchez, Case de Tamales Let’s support them!

Article about Mark Rodriguez

Article about Robert Ogata

On Our Minds

Starbucks to reduce dairy to reduce carbon footprint. Dairy industry responds. Fresno Business Journal article.

How Many Gallons of Water in a Hamburger?

Paul and Craig talk Religion – Part Deux Feb 06, 2020

Religion Two

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton delve back into the forbidden territory of religion. Is it possible for a former pastor and an agnostic to carry on a civil conversation? We think you can guess the answer. Yep, they trashed the studio in a fight that rivaled scene from Blazing Saddles. Don’t worry, they made up and cleaned up before Ashley got home.

Joseph Comes to Town

James Fallows on Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno Podcast

Non Partisan Evangelical

What is an evangelical?

The term evangelical derives from the Greek word euangelion meaning “gospel” or “good news.” Technically speaking, evangelical refers to a person, church, or organization that is committed to the Christian gospel message that Jesus Christ is the savior of humanity.

www.theatlantic.com › politics › archive › 2015/12 › evangelical-christian

Funeral Procession for Iranian General Soleimani

Escaping a Christian Cult (Westboro Baptist Church)

Jim Baker

Roman Exposure Law

1619 Podcast

Academy Awards Best Picture Nominees

Mr. Robinson’s Neighborhood SNL Sketch

Talking Fresno History with Former Mayor Dan Whitehurst Jan 23, 2020

Paul and Craig are talking about the history of Fresno government and what the job of mayor of Fresno entails in this discussion with former Fresno Mayor Dan Whitehurst.

Prop 13

Urban Growth Management

Strong Mayor Charter Amendment (link to charter)

San Joaquin Memorial

St. Mary’s College

AAA Board

Fresno Sues Over DBCP in City Wells

KENNEDY School at Harvard

Executive Session on Community Policing Lee brown (Mayor from Fresno Houston
Darrel Gates

Broken Windows Article (Kelling)

Two Guys Talk Air Quality with Mark Grossi Jan 08, 2020

Mark Grossi was the Environmental Reporter for the Fresno Bee. He covered air and water issues, along with ag and development stories. He’s a big fan of our Sierra Nevada mountains, too. You can follow him on Twitter at @markgrossi to see great images of our mountains and for information about our air quality.

We were happy to record this podcast in the fantastic studio at Community Media Access Collaborative (CMAC). If you are an AT&T or Comcast subscriber in Fresno or Clovis, check out this facility. You pay for it through a fee negotiated with the cable companies…it’s your resource. Check it out and sign up.

California Air Resources Board (good luck!)

900 premature deaths attributed to air pollution

SB 700 Clean Air Law

Dogs getting dropped in the country

Fresno No Kill Shelters

Colin Kapernick Workout for Scouts

Craig and Paul talk Dyer Interview Coverage, Sprawl and Oscar Movies Dec 18, 2019

Paul and Craig sit down to talk about the aftershocks of the Jerry Dyer interview and the Fresno City Council’s consideration of scrapping the General Plan. On a lighter note, they also talk about some recent movies.

Fresno Bee Editorial: Did Jerry Dyer have sex with an underage teen? Fresno voters deserve to know.

Fresno General Plan

District Four Council Map

Janz with Michael Avenatti

Groundwater Management Plan Effects

Sidney Swearengin Singing

President Trump invests $0 into his campaign

**Paul and Craig Reflect on Their Mayoral Interviews** Dec 03, 2019
Reflections on Mayoral Candidate Interviews

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton spend some time talking about their thoughts after interviewing Jerry Dyer and Andrew Janz. They offer a self-critical view and are open about the challenges with engaging in tough questions and tough civic conversations. Listen to the interviews first, and if you’d like more insight then we think you’ll enjoy hearing their reactions to the candidates and their own personal experiences.

KQED Coverage of Dyer’s Complicated Career

Jerry Dyer Statue (Yes, it does have grenades)

Dyer Statue at Fair (Fresno Bee)

Jose Ramirez Statue, as mentioned by Mr. Dyer (Hanford Sentinel)

Do Changes to the Voting Process Change Mayoral Race?

Was Keurig Pod Inventors Remorseful?

Jerry’s Wife’s Name is Diane, not Diana

What’s On Our Minds?

Skilled Worker Shortage

The Main in the High Castle

Conversation With Mayoral Candidate Andrew Janz Dec 02, 2019

ANDREW JANZ

The Two Guys Talkin” Fresno podcast interviewed mayoral candidate Andrew Janz.

Paul and Craig stray from the lighthearted banter to ask some tough questions in this interview. Chances are that if you already support Andrew, you’ll think we were too tough. If you oppose him, you’ll think we went to easy on him. Since our podcast seeks to support the moderate viewpoint, that’s just fine with us!

Links to related resources:

Community Media Access Collaborative (CMAC)

Andrew Janz Campaign Website

Andrew Janz versus Devin Nunes

Texas Homeless Tent City Proposal

Janz Measure P

Project Labor Agreements

**Conversation With Mayoral Candidate Jerry Dyer** Dec 02, 2019
Jerry Dyer Podcast

The Two Guys Talkin” Fresno podcast interviewed mayoral candidate Jerry Dyer.

Paul and Craig stray from the lighthearted banter to ask some tough questions in this interview. Chances are that if you already support Jerry you’ll think we were too tough. If you oppose him, you’ll think we went to easy on him. Since our podcast seeks to support the moderate viewpoint, that’s just fine with us!

Community Media Access Collaborative CMAC

Dyer for Mayor Website

News Reports and Criticisms of Dyer

San Diego Homeless Tent Facility

Jerry Dyer Statue and its Hand Grenades

Photo of the hand grenades on the statue (Fresno Bee)

Jose Ramirez statue, also at this year’s Big Fresno Fair (Hanford Sentinel)

Ulta

Chuck Riojas

Apprenticeship Programs Fresno

Carole Goldsmith

Deputy Chief Foster

Discrimination and Harassment Lawsuits Settled

What’s on our mind?

Paul: Christmas begins 11/1

DBT Reference

Tavern Theology

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson

Sam Harris

Craig’s book recommendation: Nine Lies About Work

Bob Sison

Craig and Paul Visit The Queer Out Awards Gala Nov 27, 2019

Paul and Craig attended the QueerOut Awards Gala. This is a conversation about the event, thoughts about how far the LBGT+ community has come and how far we have to go to accept everyone. As usual there are plenty of tangents, laughs, concerns, and hope.

Queer Out Awards Gala (The entire CMAC coverage of the event)

Table Talks-Faithfully Clear

Woven Church

Names Project (aka AIDS Quilt)

Stone Wall Riot

Kyland Hall

Q Commons Paul Swearengin

Q Commons Marcel Woodruff

Julian Ramos

Jack Ryan

Goliath

Craig & Paul Talk California Economy at Fresno’s California Economic Summit Nov 21, 2019

The Two Guys had their first live podcast at part of the California Economic Summit. More specifically, they were at Tioga Sequoia Brewery as part of the evening festivities. As part of the California Economic Summit, which was held in Fresno for the first time, our community put together a list of recommendations to present to Governor Newsom. The effort to put these plans and recommendations together was called the DRIVE initiative. Hundreds of Central Valley residents worked on this document over the 2019 summer. You can find the draft of this document here: www.fresnodrive.org

The investment plan is for $.2 billion over 10 years. The Three E’s are: Environment, Equity and Economy.

Our guests on this episode are:

Mike Cruz, President of Tioga Sequoia Brewery

Ashley Swearengin, EEO of the Central Valley Community Fund

https://www.centralvalleycf.org/

Gil Gonzales, Director of Strategic Development, CMTC

Micah Weinberg, CEO of California Forward

Thanks for dinner!

Burgers and More food truck

There is no spoon:

https://youtu.be/uAXtO5dMqEI

Democracy in Action: P&C Talk Voting with Fresno County Leaders Brandi Orth and Susan Anderson Nov 15, 2019

Are you a fan of democracy? Paul and Craig are HUGE fans of democracy. That’s why they invited current and former County Clerks Brandi Orth and Susan Anderson on to the Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno podcast. There are big changes coming. Listen in to find out what they are, how the changes affect how you vote, and the potential implications to political campaigns and results. Are our elections in good hands? We think you’ll feel really good about our local elections after you hear from these two guests.

Voters Choice Act

California Association of Clerks and Elections Officials

Vote Fresno County

For more voter info call 600-VOTE

Craig and Paul Celebrate One Year as Two Guys! Nov 08, 2019

On Episode #46, Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton celebrate their first year co-hosting the Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno. They take a look at what they’ve learned, which shows stick out for them and then look forward to Year Two. Join the Two Guys for another fun one-on-one civil conversation.

Paul and Craig are especially honored to have had Terry’s House as our inaugural Title Sponsor. Please learn more about the wonderful service that they provide to families who are dealing with severe health crises. Please consider a tour, volunteering, cooking a meal for the families, donating books, soaps and shampoo, and of course …money!

Join our podcast as an Single Episode Sponsor!

Relevant Links and Mentions:

Civil War Revisited/Fresno Historical Society

Deb And James Fallows

Simon Majumdar

Dr Joseph Castro-President, Fresno State

Ryan McNeil – Fresno Mosquito and Vector Control

https://twoguysfresno.blubrry.net/2019/10/30/407/ Oct 30, 2019

Paul and Craig have a freewheeling chat with Fresno City College President Dr. Carole Goldsmith. If you don’t know Carole, you’ll feel like she’s your new best friend after you’ve listened. If you do know her, you’re going to enjoy catching up with one of the most positive and dynamic leaders in our community. Meet a local leader and find out more about what’s happening at this important cornerstone in our region…and hopefully smile all of the way through. Thanks as always to Terry’s House, the best Title Sponsor imaginable: https://www.communitymedical.org/Make-a-Donation/Where-to-Donate/Donate-to-Terry-s-House Learn more about Fresno City College Ram Pantry: https://www.fresnocitycollege.edu/campus-life/ram-pantry/donate.html Jim Yovino, Fresno County Office of Education Superintendent: https://fcoe.org/superintendent CTEC High School: http://ctec.fcoe.org/ Design Science High School https://abc30.com/uncategorized/design-science-high-school-moving-to-fresno-city-college/1819571/

Creativity in Fresno; We Talk with Bryan Harvey and Roque Rodriguez Oct 18, 2019

Bryan Harley and Roque Rodriguez are the two of the leaders in the local video arts scene. Bryan is the Executive Director of CMAC. Roque does creative videos for local Duncan Enterprises. Together they are the creative geniuses behind SwedeFest, DumbDrum and Cross Streets. If you don’t know what these things are then we’re here to enlighten you on some of the coolest stuff in the Central Valley. If you do know what these things are, then we are totally pandering to you.

Paul and Craig had a great time talking with these two local visionaries and lighthearted souls. We know that you’ll learn and laugh along with us. Please enjoy, share, like, subscribe and tell others. Thanks to our Title Sponsor Terry’s House ! Go to their page to learn more about Terry’s House and to make a donation to this fantastic local resource.

A few other links to stuff that we mentioned:

P&C Talk About the BFF (Big Fresno Fair) and a Certain Statue… Oct 10, 2019

Paul and Craig talk about the BFF, the Big Fresno Fair. You might’ve heard about a particular new statue that’s causing some controversy. The grenade-wearing, cross-weilding, abstract image of former (or current) Police Chief Jerry Dyer is a topic that they can’t let pass by with some comments . The Two Guys also talk about whether the Fair is a positive or negative for our economy, lawns transforming into parking lots, and betting on the ponies.

This episode deep and wide into a jungle of topics, with plenty of laughter along the way. As always, we are grateful to our title sponsor, the beautiful people and place that make up Terry’s House.ep

Two Guys Talk Fresno Transportation with Matthew Gillian Oct 03, 2019

The Two Guys talk with Matthew Gillian from Inspiration Transportation (www.itransportev.com ), a local nonprofit creating transportation solutions for residents of low income communities. Matthew is working on a variety of ways to build sustainable systems to help clean our air and to provide affordable transportation through non conventional solutions. He has a big heart for our community and brings his experience and creativity to try to make this a better place for everyone. Bonus feature: Paul and Matthew try San Joaquin’s Salsa and you can hear the results. They also talk about the recent breakfast that they cooked at our title sponsor Terry’s House.

Paul and Craig: A Podcast about Podcasts Sep 27, 2019

Paul and Craig have fun talking about how they got started with their podcast. They talk about their own favorite podcasts and they encourage you to start your own, with a look into the steps and technology that make it simple to do.

They spend some time talking about whether the Mayors race in Fresno is a foregone conclusion and some other hot local issues, too.

Two Guys Talk Book Writing with a Local Publishing Entrepreneur Sep 17, 2019

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talked with International best selling author Everett O’Keefe about the new, exciting world of self-publishing, on-demand printing, and hybrid publishing. In other words, there are NO more excuses not to author and publish a book. In fact, there are many benefits to publishing a book. Everett talks about how it clarifies your thoughts and opens opportunities for expanding your business reach, increasing your value in your industry and possibly opening up opportunities in consulting and speaking.

Everett and his family live in Clovis, California. He has authored six books and now helps others to go through the self-publishing process and has a specific marketing strategy that he uses with clients. This podcast should encourage many of our listeners to write their book! We mention some local authors and resources like Armen Bacon, Kurt Madden, and Phyllis Brotherton. In our What’s on Your Mind segment, we discuss the downtown Fresno’s oldest building’s (The Expositor) facade work and John Rup and David Robertson of Nolan Thomas Construction. We also discuss Fresno State Football and whether their wins and losses should affect our community’s self-esteem. We are grateful for our Title Sponsor: Terry’s House Please donate time or treasure to this wonderful place!!!

P&C Talk with Mike Oz! Sep 05, 2019

Paul and Craig enjoyed chatting with local legend Mike Oz! Mike has connected the Fresno area to downtown, food, fun, and music for years. He’s been throwing some of the best parties in the region and he recently got his own baseball card from Topps (even though he doesn’t have an ERA or OBP).

If you don’t know Mike Osegueda (his real name) you’ll enjoy getting to know him. If you do, you already know that you’ll enjoy this episode of the Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno podcast.

Check our Mike’s Big League Stew show on YouTube as Pete Rose opens 25-year-old baseball cards with Mike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVIFQk89C-8&t=61s Thanks, as always, to our wonderful Title Sponsor Terry’s House!!! Search for their Facebook Page and like it, please.

Two Guys Talk Governing with New Council Member Mike Karbassi Aug 28, 2019

Michael Karbassi is the newly elected Council Member from District 2 in Northwest Fresno. Karbassi was born in the district and won big time – with more than 60% of the vote in a primary held this past month. What is his vision for Fresno and his district? How does he decided between what’s best for his district and what’s best for the city? These are questions for which Council Member Karbassi must be prepared so Craig and Paul ask him! Listen in. Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our Title Sponsor!

Craig and Paul Talk Grammar Faux Pas(‘s)? Aug 21, 2019

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton have a “Fun With Grammar” episode. After receiving over 300 comments on their social media posts asking for suggestions, they responded with this light-hearted, fast-paced, hyphen-laden episode. Grammar, punctuation and colloquial mistakes for some can be fingernails on a surf board or be like beating around a dead bush. Don choo hate it when you’re frenz dunno yor desire for them to say your correctly?

Paul and Craig took suggestions from many of their listeners like Frank Delgado, Lori Clanton, Jeffery Whitaker, Elliott Balch, Steve Skibbie, Cole Scharton, and Paula Lloyd (was that an Oxford Comma?).

As always, we are literally grateful for Terry’s House, our Title Sponsor! Join us this Saturday, August 24th from 7:30-10:30 to cook breakfast. Matthew Gillian and other wonderful listeners will be pitching-in to cook, serve and clean.

Let’s Talk Fresno State with Pres. Joseph Castro Aug 15, 2019

Joseph Castro is the President of Fresno and he is in the right place at the right time. Great things are happening at Fresno State and those things matter to Fresno and Central California. Listen in as Craig and Paul talk sports, academics and everything in between. Thanks to Terry’s House for being our title sponsor.

Let’s Talk California’s Economic Health with Lenny Mendonca Aug 07, 2019

Lenny Mendonca was tapped by Gov. Newsom to be the state’s Chief Economic and Business Advisor, so when he talks about the state’s economic health he has great insight. He also happens to be an expert economists who has written several books on the topic. Read more about his resume here. Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talk to Lenny about important state topics like the pairing back of state regulations, why it costs more to do business in California than in other states and why Lenny is a backer of High Speed Rail and why he still believes it will be built in California and why he believes it will be an economic game-changer for Central California.

If you’re feeling hopeless about California’s economy, don’t miss hearing from one of the state’s top experts on California’s economy and find out why he’s anything but hopeless. Thanks to Terry’s House for being our title sponsor on the podcast!

Craig and Paul Talk Mental Health Jul 31, 2019

Leah Whitworth, LMFT is leading a mental health program at Fresno’s Kaiser Permanente that is helping hundreds of people, including our co-host Craig Scharton. Paul and Craig delve into how DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy) works and how it can help a wide variety of people in our community. Leah has years of experience and is passionate about helping people in the Central Valley. Her upbeat and fun attitude makes this difficult subject fun and approachable. You might even pick up a skill or two to help you to be more effective! Learn more about the program here. Don’t miss this important discussion. Thank to Terry’s House for serving as out Title Sponsor!

Mayoral Job Description/Slatic: Paul and Craig Talk What The Job Takes & FUSD’s Most Notorious Board Member Jul 26, 2019

How do we know we are electing the right candidate for the strong mayor position of Fresno? Maybe if there was a job description we could make a more informed choice. Paul and Craig talk about what they see it takes for someone to be prepared well for the job. Also, what in the heck is going on with Fresno Unified board member Terry Slatic? Thanks to Terry’s House for being our Title Sponsor!

Let’s Talk Manufacturing. A Craig and Paul Hodgepodge of Topics Jul 18, 2019

There’s a more vibrant manufacturing segment of our economy in Central California and in the state at large than you may know. Listen in as Craig Scharton talks about his work in helping manufacturers to be successful and explains just what constitutes a “manufacturer.” Also, Paul Swearengin joins in as the guys discuss ways to get involved in making Fresno a better place. Please listen, like, comment and share and visit our Facebook Page. And Support our Title Sponsor Terry’s House!

Let’s Talk Food! The California Food Expo is Coming. Jul 13, 2019

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talk California Food Expo with Amy Fuentes, the Director of the event. This is one of the best events in Fresno, fueling our local food producers, drink creators and bottlers and even local restaurants to make connections with worldwide buyers (including prisons!) And it’s a FUN event for the public as well. Check out more information about the California Food Expo here. Also, check out our title sponsor Terry’s House and volunteer, give and serve with them!

A revisit with Irma L. Olguin, Jr. of Bitwise Jul 03, 2019

With Bitwise making new the past couple weeks (read about that here) we thought we’d bring back one of our favorite shows. The #003 Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno Show ever as Craig and Paul talk to one of the leaders of Bitwise. Irma has an amazing story and Bitwise an amazing mission. Don’t miss this talk, brought to you by Terry’s House!

Paul and Craig Talk Fresno’s Poetry Scene Jun 26, 2019

Fresno is well-known to be a rich center for the arts in the state of California, but did you know the poetry and spoken word scene is part of our wealth of resources? Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talk to former Fresno Poet Laureate Bryan Medina and spoken word artist Kyland Hall about the history and current activity of Fresno’s poets. The spoken word is powerful and you will be moved by hearing the gift these guys have to share. Thanks to Terry’s House for being our title Sponsor!

**Craig Interviews Special Guest – Paul Swearengin, Author!** Jun 19, 2019
For anyone who has wondered why Christians act as they do, Paul Swearengin has written a book imagining what God’s view might be of the religious right, were he on earth today. Craig Scharton asks Paul questions about the book and what inspired him to write *Joseph Comes to Town: When The Religious Right Becomes Religiously Wrong.* You can check out the book here. Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our Title Sponsor. For more discussion on the impact of religion in the lives of our hosts, listen to this episode on Craig and Paul talk Religion.

We Talk Media and Fresno Bee with Publisher Tim Ritchey Jun 13, 2019

“The Liberal Media is Out To Get Us!!!” It’s a normal sentiment we hear non-stop on social media, conservative talk media and from local elected officials. We talk to Tim Ritchey about the role of the local newspaper. Is the Fresno Bee dying? Or just transitioning in a new media landscape? Is the Bee out to get local conservatives? Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin had a great time talking media today with Tim Ritchey, Publisher of the Fresno Bee. The world of media is changing and we hear from Tim how the Bee is adjusting to this new world. Thanks for Listening, Liking, Commenting and Sharing! Check out our Patreon Page – https://www.patreon.com/twoguysfresno. Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our Title Sponsor!

Two Guys Talk Neighborhood Revitalization with Phil Skei Jun 07, 2019

Paul and Craig talk to Phil Skei about his vision for revitalizing neighborhoods in Fresno. What does it take to get a neighborhood to take on its own revitalization? How do we know when a neighborhood is “revitalized?” Phil also shares about the Vision22 Project – aimed at informing Fresno’s churches of what to positively impact Fresno’s 22 poorest neighborhoods. Listen in to this lively discussion, brought to you by Terry’s House, our title sponsor. Please LIKE, SHARE and COMMENT below or on our Facebook Page!

C & P Talk Grizzlies Apology and Mayoral Race May 30, 2019

Paul and Craig jumped on the mic to quickly talk about big news happening in Fresno. First, the Fresno Grizzlies make national news after apologizing for a Memorial Day Video that painted a congresswoman as an enemy of the United States. Can anyone ever make a mistake in our culture anymore? Or has baseball in Fresno now become “One strike and you’re out!” And, with Lee Brand out of the next mayoral election in Fresno, Police Chief Jerry Dyer is in. What should be the requirements of a mayor? Maybe we need a job description so people know who truly would be a good mayor and who, maybe, not so much… Listen in to this timely discussion. Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our title sponsor. Check us out at Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno and check out our Two Guys Facebook Page.

There’s More To Controlling Mosquitoes Than You Might Think May 24, 2019

Ryan McNeil is the District Manager of the Fresno Mosquito and Vector Control District. He’s in charge of trying to kill all the mosquitoes that invade your backyard parties! Mosquitoes are getting more populace in Central California, but you can help! Ryan gives us the ins and outs of controlling these pesky pests and the truth and myths (no they didn’t release a bunch of extra ones in the past few years) about mosquito abatement in Fresno.

Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin both found the conversation fascinating, and we think you will too! Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our title sponsor.

Craig and Paul Talk Economic Development May 17, 2019

Economic Development is a big word for a topic that can be mega-boring. Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin talk about why economic development matters to every single Fresnan and Central Californian. It is money directly in or out of your pocket! Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our Title Sponsor! Check out their Facebook Page. Also, visit our Patreon page if you like the show and want to help keep it growing with your financial help!

Two Guys Talk Myths and Reality of Air Quality with Jaime Holt May 13, 2019

Why is our air so dirty? Is it getting worse? Are any efforts to clean our air making things better? Jaime Holt knows our air – and she knows what truly causes the problems in our air quality and the myths. Listen in as Craig and Paul talk air with Jaime, from the San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution Control District, we might all learn something about how we can all breathe easier!

Two Guys Talk About Loving Your City May 01, 2019

If you weren’t allowed to live in Fresno anymore, where would you live? And would you love that city? What makes a city “lovable?” Or is loving our city more about choosing to focus on what there is to love about your “home?”

Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talk about loving Fresno and comparing it with other places they’ve lived and explored. How do we make sure we don’t have any inferiority complex with anyone? Enjoy the show – like it, comment on it, share it with others.

Thanks to Terry’s House and Christa Atchley for being our title sponsor! Check out our patreon site here to help support us to continue the show! Thanks to Art.com for the Love Fresno pic.

Two Guys Talk About Fresno’s River with Sharon Weaver Apr 19, 2019

Paul and Craig had a wonderful time talking with Sharon Weaver, the Executive Director of the San Joaquin River Parkway and Conservation Trust. The San Joaquin River and the bluffs are the most dramatic geographic feature in the City of Fresno. Cities around the world love their rivers. We chat about our relationship with our river, its nature and its future. As always, we hope you enjoy this with an open and curious mind. Share like, comment and even consider supporting though our Patreon page. Thanks to Terry’s House…our Title Sponsosr!!!

Two Guys Talk Fresno with Conservative Michael Der Manouel Apr 10, 2019

What does it mean to be a “Conservative” in politics today? Fresno County Lincoln Club President Michael Der Manouel talks about conservatism and more. Do conservatives have to support Donald Trump at all costs? Are Republicans even conservative anymore? Der Manouel brings a strong opinion on these issues and on his love for Fresno and particularly Downtown Fresno. Don’t miss another chance to learn about ideologies and the people who carry them as Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin enjoy the chat. Please check out our Patreon Page to help support this podcast and Like, Share, Comment on our Facebook Page. Want to hear about other ideological conversations on the pod. Check out our conversation with Libertarian Clint Olivier. Thanks to Terry’s House for being our Title Sponsor!

Two Guys Talk Fresno Food With Simon Majumdar Apr 03, 2019

Simon Majumdar is a world renowned broadcaster, author and cook who has dedicated the second half of his time on this planet to fulfill his ambition to “Go Everywhere. Eat Everything.” He also loves Fresno’s food and has visited the Fresno Food Expo (now the California Food Expo) for the past several years. Hear our Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin talk to Simon about his podcast Eat My Globe and his view of his love for Fresno. Sometimes it takes an outside view to see ourselves as good as we are and Simon Majumdar encourages Fresno to like itself! Thanks to our Title Sponsor Terry’s House and please support us on our Patreon Page and our Two Guys Facebook Page. If you haven’t heard us talk to other outside voices of their view of Fresno, check out our conversation with Jim and Deborah Fallows, author of the book Our Towns.

Two Guys Ask: Is Fresno Going in the Right Direction Mar 27, 2019

Our Two Guys, Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton go live online with some of our listeners to discuss whether or not Fresno is going in the right direction. What do you think? You can answer that poll on our Patreon Page. Our Patreon Page is where you can access our special community and help support the show. On our Patreon Page you get access to Patreon Only shows, Two Guys get togethers and more. For this episode, we were so excited to have Sergio, Julie and Elaine join us to give the listeners perspective. We hope we can catch you on another live episode! We also talk with Christa Atchley from Terry’s House, our Title Sponsor. Haven’t listened lately, don’t miss the great conversation we had about High Speed Rail. Tell your friends about the podcast and please Like, Share, Comment on your favorite social media or on our Facebook Page!

City Council Member Miguel Arias talks with our Two Guys Mar 18, 2019

Miguel Arias has only been on the council for a few weeks and he’s already trying to make big changes. You might agree or disagree with what he wants to happen, but you can’t deny his passion for what he wants to see happen. Paul Swearengin and Craig Scharton talk to Council Member Arias about issues facing the city of Fresno such as parking, dealing with fulfillment centers and much more – and also hear about his humble beginnings in a small town and the journey to Fresno government. Don’t miss this interesting Two Guys discussion. Thanks to Terry’s House for being our title sponsor. Check out their website here. You can also, check out Council Member Arias’ City webpage here. Please comment with any thoughts you have from the podcast below or on our Facebook Page.

Want to Help Support this podcast – join our Patreon Community Here.

Some Say High Speed Rail is Dead, Now Can We All Get Along… Mar 07, 2019

EPISODE 015 – Gov. Gavin Newsom seemed to spell the end of High Speed Rail with his State of the State Speech in February 2019. And certainly HSR opponents were celebrating. But Craig Scharton believes this might be just what Central California needs to get people to come together behind building some good transportation infrastructure that can benefit Fresno and the state. He explains his theory to the other Two Guy, Paul Swearengin in this podcast! For more on the Two Guys take on why they do the podcast, check out this episode. Thanks to Terry’s House for being our Title Sponsor. Please Listen, Like and Comment on our Facebook Page.

#014 – Aaron Foster Talks Solutions to Gang Violence Feb 27, 2019

Aaron Foster says he wasn’t a very good person for most of his life. Now he wants to change the lives of others for the better. Aaron is a remarkable person who’s been through a personal transformation and some brutally challenging life experiences. He has emerged as a person with the insight and drive to help to heal his community. This is an important conversation in which Aaron tells us amazing things about the causes of gang violence and what he is doing, in connection with the City of Fresno, to change things! This is an important conversation that we hope you’ll listen to from beginning to end and will share with others

Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our Title Sponsor! Aaron reminds us of Rodney Murphy who told us his amazing story in Episode 008. Listen to that episode here.

#013 – The Two Guys Talk Religion Feb 14, 2019

Yes, it is a bold move – the Two Guys share their thoughts and wrestle with questions about religion. Is it OK to talk about religion? We think so, and hope so! Join us as our Two Guys, Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin talk about what religion has meant in their lives – what parts were painful and what really matters to them. Please listen, like, comment and let your friends know you listened. We are so grateful for the support and partnership with Terry’s House and all of you who are helping to make this podcast possible through your love on our Patreon Community! Click on the link and join us, we are going to have some FUN in 2019! Love to you all and all our best thoughts over Fresno and Central California!

#012 – Two Guys Flowing with Famous – Part 2 Feb 06, 2019

Part two of the TwoGuysTalkinFresno talking with the guys from Flowing with Famous dives into issues like a new mascot for Fresno State athletics and should we allow a national chain store to move into a space on Fulton Street. Joshua Teehee and Michael Seay are two podcasters from Fresno’s longest running podcast and they have a great way of looking at our city. Join us as our Two Guys, Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin talk Fresno with Flowing with Famous. If you missed Part 1 of our chat, check that out here. Also, we are so grateful for the support and partnership with Terry’s House and all of you who are helping to make this podcast possible through your love on our Patreon Community! Click on the link and join us, we are going to have some FUN in 2019! Love to you all and all our best thoughts over Fresno and Central California!

#011 – Two Guys Flowing with Famous, Part 1 Jan 31, 2019

This week our Two Guys are “standing on the shoulders of titans” as they visit with the original podcast of Fresno – “Flowing with Famous.” Flowing with Famous was started in 2004 and discusses “stuff like Fresno culture, music, media, biking, beer, politics and whatever else is on the minds of Fresnans.” Our Two Guys, Craig Scharton and Paul Swearengin have fun with current “Flowing” hosts Joshua Teehee and Michael Seay. What’s the best pizza in town? And if the Grizzlies were to rename the team, what would a good name be. Have fun discussing some of Fresno’s entertainment and entertainment history with the originals of Fresno Podcasting as the Two Guys are Flowing with Famous! By the way, the show was so good, we made two of them. This is part one.

Thanks to Terry’s House for being our title supporter of the podcast. Please share the podcast, tell your friends, like it on social media and comment on our site here or on your favorite social media.

Also, have you heard all the Two Guys Podcasts? If not, go back and listen to episode #003 with Irma Olguin of Bitwise, it was a great show. Also, want to help support great podcast talk about Fresno? You can be a supporter of our community through our Patreon Page. We are going to have a lot of fun with our Patreon family!

#010 – Parking and Parks with Paul and Craig Jan 24, 2019

Craig Scharton is THE Fresno expert on parking. In follow up to a lively Facebook discussion about parking, our two guys, Craig and Paul Swearengin chew on parking in Fresno a bit and how managing parking in Downtown can be as important or more so than offering free parking as is the habit in North Fresno. Also, in tribute to recently deceased love of Fresno, David McDonald, our two guys talk about Measure P and the importance of parks and the vision Fresno needs to get through the divide of the recent vote on this measure. Don’t miss this lively discussion about two issues that very much matter to Fresnans and everyone from Central California who comes to Fresno. Don’t miss this great episode and Like it, Comment on it and Share it!

Also, don’t miss another great show where we interviewed local entrepreneur Jamin Brazil and another where we talked with national writers James and Deb Fallows. Thanks to Terry’s House for being our title sponsor! And don’t forget to sign up on our e-mail list and receive our free eBook – the Top Ten Bucket To Do List in Fresno!

**#009 – Jamin Brazil Talks Opportunity and Potential in Fresno** Jan 16, 2019
It’s a classic story – local boy starts business, fails, trips up and after a long road of pitfalls and hard work, local boy because an “overnight success.” Jamin Brazil is just such a story in Fresno. Jamin shares his view of how hard work meeting opportunity can allow something amazing to happen – even in Fresno. Jamin is an entrepreneur, podcaster, speaker and amazingly hopeful Fresnan who sees great potential all around us.

Jamin started a company called Decipher and later sold that company and now is an entrepreneur and believer in Central California. Hear Jamin share about the challenges he sees in Fresno and the stories of how his failures led to the perseverance to get to success. And he shares how the rest of us can do the same.

Don’t miss this great podcast recorded on January 14, 2019 in the Two Guys Talkin’ Fresno studio. Thanks to Terry’s House for serving as our title sponsor! Like, Share and Comment on your social media or on the Facebook page of Paul or Craig.

#008 – Rodney Murphy and the Plight of Our Poorer Neighborhoods Jan 10, 2019

Most of us are aware there are neighborhoods and areas in Fresno that need help reaching their better potential. Meet one man who is doing something about it. Our special guest for this episode, Rodney Murphy.

Rodney grew up in Southwest Fresno, also known as the Golden Westside. He is a full time counselor at Fresno City College and is the Coordinator of Special Programs for African American students. First one in his family to graduate college, and now he is helping others to make the next big step on their path to success.

Enjoy listening to our conversation with Rodney and his Love for Fresno and downtown and desire to help downtown, Chinatown and Southwest Fresno to achieve their potential.

Thanks to Terry’s House for being our title partnership sponsor and to you for being part of our Two Guys Community for 2019. Check out our Patreon Page to help support the program – for a short time we have a $1.99 membership that you can join and stay at that level forever. It’s only available for a short time! Thanks for joining!

Please Comment on this show on our website or Like, Comment and Share on your favorite social media platform or our Two Guys Facebook Page.