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    News

    Time To Say Goodbye

    A podcast about politics, culture, fishing, surfing and some other stuff with Jay Caspian Kang and Tyler Austin Harper

    goodbye.substack.com

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    Copyright: © timetosaygoodbyepod

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    Latest Episodes:
    An Intricate Castle of Good Intentions: ‘Nice White Parents,’ Historians vs. Journalists, and AsAm Christianity Aug 11, 2020
    Show notes

    Hello from the ledge of cancellation!

    We have some heady stuff for you this week—on school segregation, the perennial struggle between historians and journalists, and religiosity in Asian America.

    0:40 – After a quick update on Tammy’s new life of canoeing in Missoula, Jay describes his roundtrip between Berkeley and Whidbey Island, when he listened to the newest, most Upper West Side podcast ever: “Nice White Parents,” by Chana Joffe-Walt.

    We discuss the first three episodes of that series—tldr: the road to hell is paved with good intentions—and the broader contours of education, race, and class in the US. Are Asian students missing from the show’s presentation? Can we distinguish “good integration” from “bad integration”? Do individual choices make a difference, or are government policies all that matter? WTF, Rob?

    Other shows we mention:

    * The “School Colors” documentary podcast.

    * An earlier (2015), touchstone series of This American Life, featuring Joffe-Walt and Nikole Hannah-Jones, on school integration in Hartford, Connecticut and Normandy, Missouri.

    37:04 – Andy shares a NY Mag interview with public intellectual Adam Tooze, which includes hot takes on the role of history vs. journalism. Is the archive-digger the natural enemy of the reporter? In this hellishly unprecedented(?!) moment, are some disciplines especially relevant? What about the political economy of journalism and academia? Included: the 1619 Project, fascism, and ye olde breakfast foods.

    1:08:34 – Listener Jonathan Tang asks why so many East Asians, especially from the upper middle class, seem to be churched. We apply all kinds of anecdata in the search for truth. (Correction: Tammy references Christian missionaries’ visiting Korea by the early 19th century; she meant the late 19th century.)

    P.S. – Tammy’s new nightly hike (suckers):

    Please support us by subscribing and telling friends and family! Also ask a question to timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com or @TTSGPod!


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Trump 'bans' TikTok, the NBA Bubble protests, and teaching during COVID-19 Aug 04, 2020
    Show notes

    Hello from three time zones!

    This week, we mull the Covid-era classroom (fears of contagion and falling behind), the meaning of Trump’s attack on TikTok, Nike-brand kneeling (and not kneeling) in the NBA bubble, and universalism and particularism in the Black Lives Matter uprising.

    1:40 – Will Tammy find an Oriental market in Missoula? How does Andy plan to teach through his screen? What will be the impact of these lost semesters on poor and working-class students? Also, should we blame diversity administrators for the collapsing academy?

    17:07 – Why is Trump raging against TikTok? Is it because of Sarah Cooper’s impersonations, the Tulsa BTS Army, or his larger vendetta against China? Are we being tricked into siding with a mega-corporation or military state? Further reading: on US fears of the app, Western and Eastern Internets, Microsoft and tech nationalism against China, and whether TikTok is basically just as bad as Facebook. Bonus: Jay reveals his strategy for making Twitter “unusable” through his war with music writers.

    35:45 – We discuss Tammy’s recent article probing the tensions within the “POC” label. Are Asians excluded from new euphemisms for ethnic minorities (“Black and brown,” “BIPOC”)? Can we include non-Black perspectives without going “all lives matter”? Could a new political bloc emerge amongst immigrants, especially Latinx and Asian Americans (see recent exchange between Pankaj Mishra and Viet Thanh Nguyen)? Does foundation funding keep domestic and global politics separate? Are we helping the right wing capture the immigrant vote? Bonus: an update on the Portland Wall of Moms.

    1:01:10 – Jay advances a Manufacturing Consent thesis: the media’s coverage of BLM has kept public discussion within the boundaries of safe and acceptable topics. This leads to a bro-out over the NBA’s cringey coverage, in which the richest companies in the world have turned “social justice” into a profitable brand. (Also, Jay and Andy are hypocritically watching lots of games.) More generally, should we be optimistic or skeptical about the evolution of progressive politics this summer?

    1:17:50 – Our listener question of the week! We’ve heard from some of you that our podcast is one of your first experiences with politically-oriented Asian Americans, in part because you were too busy studying orgo in college (like this comrade). Is there a split between “STEM Asian Americans” and “humanities Asian Americans”?

    We can always be reached via @ttsgpod or timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. Tell your friends and family to subscribe!


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Food and Gender on Asian American TikTok, Portland’s White Protests, and Good Identity Politics Jul 28, 2020
    Show notes

    你好 from cyberspace!

    This week, Jay scuba dived the depths of Asian American TikTok to engage Andy and Tammy in a critique of gendered home-cooking videos. How far have we really come? We then get a bit more serious, with a discussion of the continuing Black Lives Matter protests in downtown Portland and lessons in coalition-building from the 1970s Combahee River Collective.

    4:10 – TikTok Cooking

    Jay plays several TikTok videos of young Asian Americans cooking their favorite dishes. The men seem to adopt a “Black” style of talking, while the women take on a more childlike “kawaii かわいい” tone. What does this say about the personae available to Asian Americans? Is there such a thing as “pan-Asian”—or even Korean, etc.—English? Also, a “Waysian” TikTok blows Andy’s mind.

    TikTok Highlights:

    Kimchi Fried Rice

    Instapot Pho

    Popeyes Chicken

    Miyeok Guk 미역국 (K seaweed soup)

    Filipino with a Texan accent

    Waysian

    34:50 – Portland Protests

    The feds are still rioting in Portland, Oregon, spurring thousands of locals to fill the streets. The novelist Mitchell S. Jackson, a native of the city, recently described his skepticism about white anarchists in these protests. Contrast this with the big-tent perspective of Kent Ford, founder of Portland’s Black Panthers chapter. What makes a protester, or a protest, really about Black Lives Matter?

    47:40 – Good Identity Politics

    We’re all big fans of How We Get Freeand other writing by and about the Combahee River Collective. How does this model of Black, queer, socialist feminism apply to our present movement moment? Can we forego an “oppression olympics” for more productive solidarity? Can “identity politics” be redeemed? Also, Tammy’s landline rings.

    Please send us comments, questions, corrections!

    @ttsgpod + timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com

    And subscribe!


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Lilith Fair, MOMTIFA, Ross Douthat on white fragility, and Tammy's "Transnationally Asian" article Jul 22, 2020
    Show notes

    Hello from 1997!

    This week, we start by crate-digging our souls, with a discussion of Lilith Fair-era feminist (and feminine?) music. We then ponder the ongoing Black Lives Matter rebellion in Portland, an op-ed on “white fragility” and its race-baiting subconscious by the country’s most lucid Catholic conservative, and what it means to be (or cosplay being) “transnationally Asian.”

    2:22 – Jay reveals why he’s been tweeting so much about his 1990s playlist. What was Lilith Fair, and is its feely, anti-corporate model of women’s artmaking still relevant? Plus: Nas and Liz Phair and straw(wo)man Beyoncé.

    11:27 – Unidentified federal cops have been brutalizing protesters in Portland, Oregon. In response, a cadre of “Momtifa” Karens has joined with antifa gutter punks on the streets. Why do certain kinds of protesters get a bad rap? What allyships are needed to keep up the BLM momentum? Bonus: Andy posits a theory of Pacific Northwest anarchism.

    43:08 – New York Times columnist Ross Douthat recently speculated that, because the old system of so-called meritocracy is collapsing, its guardians are jumping ship and embracing the critique of white privilege. Among his examples are the threat of high SAT scores posed by Asian students(!).

    Is Douthat right? And are the conditions ripe for a major revolution today?

    59:33 – Hot off the press! Tammy’s feature on transnational Asian media, featuring New Naratif (Singapore/Southeast Asia), fellow substackers Chinese Storytellers, and, as featured on TTSG, Lausan (Hong Kong) and New Bloom (Taiwan).

    The three of us have a group therapy session discussing the differences between our parents’ generation, our own, and these new kids’. Were we raised to think “only losers go back to Asia”? If we tried to return to Asia, would we just be cosplaying? Bonus: Tammy recounts her meeting with Jay’s parents.


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Darren Byler on the Uyghur people of Xinjiang, China Jul 17, 2020
    Show notes

    Credit: Carolyn Drake

    Hello from the greater Sea-Tac area!

    Andy and Tammy here with a bonus episode, interviewing Darren Byler, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Colorado and an expert on the Uyghur people, a Muslim community in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Northwest China.

    Darren’s years of anthropological research in Xinjiang will be published in a forthcoming book titled Terror Capitalism. Until then, you can find his work at SupChina, Made in China journal, and his own site, “art of life in Chinese Central Asia.” He has also written specially about surveillance technologies in Xinjiang.

    5:30 - Is it true that right-wing voices dominate the international conversation about the Uyghurs of Xinjiang? Why isn’t the international left more vocal?

    9:50 – What is Xinjiang? Who are the Uyghurs? And how has the relationship between Uyghurs and Han (ethnic Chinese) people changed from the 1950s to the present? In recent decades, Xinjiang has become a source for energy resources, the cotton in our clothing, and the tomatoes in our food.

    We recount the path from “opening up the west” (1990s) to “the people’s war on terror” (2000-10s) to the most recent “reeducation camps.”

    21:05 – Darren argues that the moralistic paradigm of “cultural difference” and “ethnic genocide” are inadequate. He explains why we need a broader analysis of the social forces producing violence, exploitation, and state repression. Hint: capitalism?

    Also, how has China appropriated the US’s rhetoric of “war on terror” to racialize the Muslim Uyghurs? Aka “I learned it by watching you, Dad!”

    Referenced: a new report on Uyghur labor in export-oriented factories in China (Australian Strategic Policy Institute)

    56:50 – What’s a good leftist to do? Is it okay to back right-wingers who call China morally evil? What are potential avenues for international solidarity (what about the Uyghur diaspora? the Chinese diaspora?)?

    Also, Darren cites recommended reading on the region and tells us what traps to avoid — and also defends journalists at The New York Times (the ones who wrote this) against Andy’s snobbish dismissal of reportage!

    Outro: an excerpt from “Uchrashqanda,” by the Uyghur singer and dutar player Abdurehim Heyit, who was imprisoned by the Chinese authorities and has not been heard from since last year.

    Links:

    Camp Album project: a multimedia collection by Xinjiang diaspora

    The Xinjiang Documentation Project at the University of British Columbia

    From the same site, Chinese translations of English publications on Xinjiang

    Historian David Brophy’s modern account of the region


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Harper's, Boba Bros, Korean Feminism, and the NBA bubble Jul 15, 2020
    Show notes

    Hello from our galaxy brain!

    This week, we begin with a brief chat about (social) media “cancel culture,” based on an open letter recently published in Harper’s. We then discuss a workplace controversy at the Boba Guys chain; the suicide of the mayor of Seoul, Park Won-soon, and what his death means in the context of South Korean feminism, per Tammy’s reporting; and a telling exchange about the NBA’s rules of wokeness between Republican US Senator Josh Hawley and ESPN NBA reporter Adrian Wojnarowski.

    As always, thank you for listening and subscribing. Please spread the word and send feedback via Twitter (@ttsgpod) or email (timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com)!

    0:57 – What are the boundaries of “free speech” on the Internet and in the minds of media elites? Who has the power to cancel whom?

    7:29 – Why did the owners of Boba Guys go all out on “Black Lives Matter” while mistreating Black and Latinx employees, and what does their conduct reveal about Asian-American food culture?

    31:00 – Why have so many high-profile South Korean men escaped accountability for gender-based misconduct and violence? What are the contours of Korea’s #MeToo movement?

    56:19 – Is it right for the NBA to host games in Orlando during the pandemic? Should we support “Free Woj” or does the other side have a point about league-sanctioned political slogans? Is it good when radical politics become safe enough to adopt by profit-driven corporations? (also Jay tries to remember what the CLS kritik said.)

    Share and subscribe!


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Trump’s Ban on International Students, Latinx Recognition in Black Lives Matter, and Listener Questions Jul 08, 2020
    Show notes

    Greetings from our USB microphones!

    In this episode, we discuss ICE’s recent rule prohibiting international students from staying in the U.S. if their colleges go fully online. We also dig into questions of cross-race solidarity in the Black Lives Matter movement, especially regarding Latinx/brown communities. Finally, we answer our first sampling of listener questions.

    As always, thank you for listening and subscribing. Please spread the word and continue to send feedback via Twitter (@ttsgpod) or email (timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com)!

    5:09 – How would the ICE crackdown on international students work? Who is the real target (psst China), and what are the broader economic implications for universities and college towns? (i.e., Whither Stonybrook, NY’s glorious Chinese food?)

    28:22 – Jennifer Medina wrote a provocative story in the New York Times on Latinx participation in the BLM movement and questions of fit: “Latinos Back Black Lives Matter Protests. They Want Change for Themselves, Too.” Can a focused movement be inclusive? How do we stand up for one another? Do we need to complicate the Black-white paradigm of race in America?

    53:39 – We attempt to answer very smart questions about our episode on tankie-ism and alternatives to American and Chinese imperialism, how we should actually address anti-black racism in the Asian diaspora (see our post from a few weeks ago), and what a rewriting of Asian-American history (from Chinese Exclusion to Grace Lee Boggs, Yuri Kochiyama, and Vincent Chin) might entail. Thanks to listeners Carlo, Michelle, Chung-chieh, and Sam for their questions. And apols to everyone whose messages we didn’t get to tackle.

    Please share and subscribe to support us!


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Immigrant Race Traitors, the International Hotel, and Media Solidarity Jun 30, 2020
    Show notes

    Greetings from Berkeley, Philadelphia, and Tacoma!

    This week, we chat about Viet Thanh Nguyen’s recent essay on Asian America, race, and class (Time); the abolition of whiteness advocated by Jay’s former mentor, Noel Ignatiev; and the dead-ends and possibilities of race talk in media.

    * Remember to keep sending us feedback and questions via Twitter at @ttsgpod or via email at timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. *

    3:35 – Nguyen’s article on the “trap of the ‘model minority’ stereotype.” In what ways is the category “Asian American” limiting, and in what ways is it enabling—or something we might productively transcend?

    30:43 – How to be an Asian American race traitor: we discuss the journal Race Traitor, about “treason to whiteness,” and consider analogies to the professional Asian class. What’s the difference between the radical historians of whiteness and White Fragility? Can we practice anti-racist politics without reifying racial categories?

    49:48 – Are diversity gestures in the media world distraction from or emulation of real social change?


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    Tankies! with Brian Hioe, New Bloom Magazine Jun 25, 2020
    Show notes

    Hi, all:

    Just Andy this time, with a Thursday edition bonus episode, in which I talk with Brian Hioe of New Bloom, a bilingual online magazine with radical analysis of Taiwan and East Asia.

    On Monday, New Bloom published an explainer essay on the very confusing phenomenon of “tankies,” aka people who argue that the true leftist position is to support the Chinese Communist Party as a check on US imperialism. Most famously, tankies denounce the Hong Kong protests as bourgeois and right-wing, as puppets of US empire.

    Their statements are at once funny and depressing, amusing and exhausting. I think Brian and I agree, though, that they are worth taking seriously because they reflect a very real set of tensions in global politics—with few clear solutions.

    Whom do we “side with” in an increasingly closed-off, nationalistic world? Must critics of US foreign policy — and the long history of Euro-American colonialism and imperialism — choose other states to support instead? For a Gen Z critical of free-market neoliberalism, what “actually existing” alternatives are there to global capitalism?

    The New Bloom piece explores these questions by examining the mysterious Qiao Collective, whose members ostensibly belong to the left-nationalist Chinese diaspora. When it comes to the Asian diaspora (though not unique to it), there is the always fun, extra ingredient of confused identity and an unfulfilled sense of belonging, heightened by local xenophobic rhetoric.

    Given these factors, Brian fears that tankie ideology may continue to spread.

    Issues we touch on:

    * Are Hong Kong’s protests “right-wing” if their citizens espouse xenophobia?

    * Is the category “diaspora,” or huaqiao 華僑, good or bad?

    * The Orientalism and self-orientalizing of tankies

    * Tankies and US Republicans as bizarro mirror images of one another

    Is there potential for common dialogue? With tankies or with the everyday people of China?

    !!!

    Links:

    * New Bloom: “The Qiao Collective and Left Diasporic Chinese Nationalism”

    * Today (June 25) marks the 70-year anniversary of the start of the Korean War. KAP SEOL reminds us, “The US Didn’t Bring Freedom to South Korea — Its People Did” (Jacobin).

    * The Critical China Scholars group (new site) will hold the 2nd of two webinars next Thursday (July 2) on the topic of “Against Racism and Nationalism.” Register at eventbrite here.

    * A developing story worth monitoring is the border dispute between China and India, about one week old now. In India, there is now a call to boycott Chinese goods (most recently by hotels (SCMP), but analysts in India are skeptical if it’s even possible (The Quint). Worth paying attention to, if only because of the recent calls by other countries to decouple from China.

    * Under-the-radar news: the Trump administration this week exploited the coronavirus pandemic to extend a ban on multiple visas into the US, from “high-skilled” (H-1B) to seasonal labor (H-2B) and other categories. Early analysis here (Common Dreams).

    * Part of the hopeful wave of primary victories this week, Yuh-Line Niou successfully defended her seat against challenger Grace Lee in the Democratic primary for New York’s 65th Assembly District (including Wall Street and Chinatown). Beyond the superficial similarities of two Asian-American women running in the Democratic party, the two candidates represented different constituencies and political visions, a microcosm of the ongoing fight between liberals and progressives within the party (The Indypendent):

    As always, feedback, questions, and comments are welcome.

    On Twitter, @ttsgpod.

    By email, timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com.

    The best way to support us is to:


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

    BTS Army in Tulsa, Angela Davis in Oakland, and the problem with "diversity and inclusion" Jun 23, 2020
    Show notes

    Hello from Oakland, Philadelphia, and New York!

    It’s just the three of us this week, talking Koreaboos and soft power, protest goals, and, as promised, Robin DiAngelo’s bestselling book White Fragility.

    But before we get into all that, a belated shout-out to our long-suffering audio editor (and master gardener) James Nicholson. And warm thanks to you, our dear listeners and subscribers. We hope to make this podcast and newsletter more interactive, so please be in touch with feedback and questions—which we may even answer on air! You can reach us via Twitter at @ttsgpod or via email at timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. (We can keep you anonymous, if you’d like.)

    2:57 – Can K-pop fans save us from Trump? Also: the contradictory racial politics of the BTS Army, hallyu (Korean wave) economics (hint: Jurassic Park), Jay on TikTok, and the vindicatory gift of the Koreaboo. This week’s segment on internalized racism: Tammy and Jay call out uncritical Korean nationalism.

    37:27 – We check in on the protests in New York, the infamous South Philly videos, and Oakland. Jay provides a vicarious boost of internationalist energy from the longshoremen’s union and the great Angela Davis in Oakland. (Fact-check: the #1 busiest port in the US is not Oakland but LA–Long Beach).

    54:13 – (White) people seem to love White Fragility. We discuss the incredible reach of its overly narrow remit (corporate diversity retreats) and wonder how to get America past “personal responsibility” race talk to an analysis aimed at social transformation. Does “white fragility” get in the way of structural change? And is Gen Z immune to an identity politics based on guilt and deference?


    This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

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