Stay ConnectedThis American Ex-Wife. The podcast where we discuss the state of American heterosexual marriage. And by state I mean trash fire. Host Lyz Lenz sits down with a cast of women to talk about their divorces, their journeys and unpacks an institution many take part in but few talk about: divorce.
Hear from Dan Savage, Eve Rodsky, Scaachi Koul and more on the topic of divorce and patriarchy in America.
Produced by Zachary Oren Smith. Show art by Suzanne Glémot.
Copyright: © Lyz Lenz
In 2019, 72% of same-sex divorces were between lesbians, meaning they divorced at about three times the rate of gay male couples. It’s a statistic that might, at first, seem alarming. But we all know better than that by now. Divorce is no cause for alarm.
So what is happening in queer divorces? What forces of culture and expectations shape those unions? What pulls people apart?
For this episode, I asked Nico Hall to join me to talk about queer divorce. Nico is a divorcee who edited a series on queer divorce for the website Autostraddle. Nico is also a freelance writer and team writer for Autostraddle. They write creative nonfiction and the more straightforward variety, as well as fiction. They are currently at work on a secret long-form project. Nico also says they are haunted, which is perfect for this Halloween episode of the scariest thing that can happen to the patriarchy… women being free!
Nico and I talked about health insurance, gay divorce, and why being queer can’t protect you from the patriarchy.
This season was generously sponsored by Funny Girls, which is a program run by the Harnisch Foundation that uses improv to teach leadership skills to girls and nonbinary kids in grades 3 to 8. You can learn more about its work here.
Zachary Oren Smith is the producer, and Suzanne Glémot made the art for the show. And thank you to everyone who shared their stories with us.
If you loved this episode, we have a whole first season you can listen to. You can also buy Lyz’s New York Times best-selling book This American Ex-Wife.
This show costs money to make! So if you want to support us, please become a subscriber to the newsletter.
This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit lyz.substack.com
There’s so much from my conversation with Dan Savage that we couldn’t put it all in one episode. So for paying subscribers, here’s a bonus segment where Dan and I talk through the orgasm gap for heterosexual couples.
Dan Savage, is, of course, the iconic podcaster and sex columnist.
This season was generously sponsored by Funny Girls, which is a program…
Dan Savage, the iconic podcaster and sex columnist, was on the forefront of the fight for marriage equality after seeing a whole generation of gay men die alone during the AIDs crisis, separated from their loved ones because they didn’t have the right to marry.
Dan came on the podcast to talk about marriage equality and the continued struggle for freedom in relationships. He asked me if I’m afraid of dying alone and, of course, we talked about sex.
This season was generously sponsored by Funny Girls, which is a program run by the Harnisch Foundation that uses improv to teach leadership skills to girls and nonbinary kids in grades 3 to 8. You can learn more about its work here.
Zachary Oren Smith is the producer, and Suzanne Glémot made the art for the show. And thank you to everyone who shared their stories with us.
If you loved this episode, we have a whole first season you can listen to. You can also buy Lyz’s New York Times best-selling book This American Ex-Wife.
Also, paying subscribers to Men Yell at Me receive a special BONUS episode where Dan and I talk a lot about sex. So become a subscriber!
Welcome back for the second and final season of This American Ex-Wife: The Podcast! This season was generously sponsored by Funny Girls, which is a program run by The Harnisch Foundation that uses improv to teach leadership skills to girls and non-binary kids in grades three through eight. You can learn more about its work here.
This season we will also have some paywalled episodes, so if you want to support the podcast, become a subscriber to Men Yell at Me. That way you won’t miss me and Dan Savage talking about sex, Morgan Jerkins giving us dating advice, and Rebecca Woolf expounding on who is really responsible for your orgasm.
This season has some pretty spectacular guests like Dan Savage and Eve Rodsky! *faints*
New episodes will go live on Thursday morning at 1 a.m. ET and you can listen to them wherever you subscribe to podcasts.
For our first episode, Lyz talked to Scaachi Koul about how marriage consumes your identity, how everyone should get divorced, and her new book Sucker Punch, which is out on March 11, 2025. Do yourself a favor and pre-order it now.
It’s a beautiful bruiser of a memoir and I cannot stop thinking about it.
An excerpt from Sucker Punch which we reference in the episode was published in The Cut.
Zachary Oren Smith is the producer, and Suzanne Glémot made the art for the show. And thank you to everyone who shared their stories with us.
If you loved this episode, we have a whole first season you can listen to. You can also buy Lyz’s New York Times best-selling book This American Ex-Wife.
Last year, we made a 10-episode season of this podcast and we are so proud of how it turned out. And want to make one more!!
Please fill out the survey to let us know the topics you want us to cover, the people you want us to talk to, ways to support the show, and any other ideas you want to share. We are listening.
Oh and Lyz’s book is out in the world. Make sure you get a copy. If you love this podcast, you’ll love the book even more.
Okay, now, send us your stories:
* You can record a voicemail for me on Speakpipe. Speakpipe has an easy user interface and we want to hear your voice. These stories were our favorite part of season one. We can’t wait to hear what you have to say for season two. Please anonymize your stories as best as you can. We want to hear from you about:
* The moment you knew your marriage was over.
* Stories about co-parenting.
* Calling off engagements.
* Custody arrangements.
* Divorce parties.
* What you did with your wedding dress.
* What your life is like as an ex.
* The thing no one believes about your marriage.
* The hardest part of being divorced and the best part.
* What you love about your life now.
* That story about your marriage that you only tell your friends after two margaritas.
* You can also send an email to menyellatme@gmail.com. Tell us your stories there! But we do prefer voice messages. It’s an audio medium after all.
Thank you for making this an amazing first season!
Surprise! Here are the first 10 minutes from the first chapter of my book, This American Ex-Wife.
It’s a clip from the audiobook, which I narrate myself. I recorded the audiobook during a blizzard and an arctic freeze, and at some point, you can hear my throat start getting scratchy with a cold. I managed to get through with an ungodly amount of cough syrup. But it was such a pleasure to record. And let me tell you the joy that I had when I read, “This has been a production of Random House audio…” it was palpable.
Take a listen and please preorder the book! If that’s not in the budget you can request it from your local library. Preorders are crucial to the success of the book. So I appreciate every one of them. Thank you all so much.
In this episode, Lyz and best-selling author and journalist behind the popular newsletter, Burnt Toast, Virginia Sole Smith read your email and talk bodies, love, sourdough dads, and divorce.
This is the last week to PREORDER your copy ofThis American Ex-Wife.
Show notes:
* Read Virginia’s amazing newsletter Burnt Toast.
* Also, Virginia and Sara Petersen have an incredible podcast, “The Cult of Perfect.”
* Of course, read Virginia’s best-selling book and one of my favorite newsletters of hers on “The Life-Changing Magic of Eating Alone.”
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz (@LyzLenz) and produced by Zachary Oren Smith (@ZachOSmith). Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot (@tape_remover).
We want independence. We want respect. We want love and relationships. We live our lives trying to cultivate these qualities. But as Minda Honey points out, we also live in a world that doesn’t prioritize our wants.
Less than two weeks until the book comes out! So preorder This American Ex-Wife. It’s the best way to support this work.
Show notes:
* Buy Minda’s book The Heartbreak Years. It’s funny and smart and insightful.
* You can also follow Minda’s work on Instagram.
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz (@LyzLenz) and produced by Zachary Oren Smith (@ZachOSmith). Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot (@tape_remover).
In the ancient play Lysistrata women withhold sex as a means of ending the Peloponnesian War. And the logic – using sex as a shaping force in marriages – is widespread both in self-help books and right-wing subreddits. Academic Donna Zuckerberg has written about the appropriation of the Classics by misogynistic groups and weighs in on Lysistrata, liberal men, ancient wives, and modern love.
If you like what you hear, preorder This American Ex-Wife. It’s the best way to support this work.
Show notes:
* Read Donna’s Washington Post op-ed about Lysistrata.
* Donna has a newsletter Myth Takes you can read and subscribe here!
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz (@LyzLenz) and produced by Zachary Oren Smith (@ZachOSmith). Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot (@tape_remover).
Aubrey Hirsch was in a hospital bed. She had just birthed her first child and found herself having to argue with a nurse over whether her last name Hirsch could be her child’s last name. In that instance and more, Hirsch shatters the notion that heterosexual parents have the same powers in the relationship.
Show notes:
* Read Aubrey’s essay for Time about giving her kids her last name.
* Support Aubrey’s newsletter and follow her on Instagram.
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz (@LyzLenz) and produced by Zachary Oren Smith (@ZachOSmith). Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot (@tape_remover).
* Support the show by preordering Lyz’s book This American Ex-Wife. From 1/24-1/26 Barnes and Noble is offering 25% offfor members. Premium members get an extra 10% off. Use code: PREORDER25.
Thank you to everyone listening and sharing this podcast! In our first five weeks, we’ve gotten over 33,000 downloads! Zach, my producer, and I are just floored!
Okay, now let’s get to the show…
As the stock market crashed in 1929, Ursula Parrot released her novel Ex-Wife. In it, the protagonist darts between the experience of sexual liberation and the ever-present sense of loss from her marriage. It feels at once familiar and refreshingly new. Parrot’s biographer Marsha Gordon asks why a century later women still have an uneasy relationship with the label ex-wife.
We also talk about Parrott’s exciting, scandalous, and fabulous life, of liberation, fear, and ex-wifery.
If you like what you hear, preorder This American Ex-Wife the book!
Show notes:
* Read Marsha Gordon’s fascinating biography Becoming the Ex-Wife: The Unconventional Life and Forgotten Writings of Ursula Parrott.
* Ex-Wife by Ursula Parrott is passionate, fascinating, wonderfully, and heart-achingly written.
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz (@LyzLenz) and produced by Zachary Oren Smith (@ZachOSmith). Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot (@tape_remover).
Best-selling author Morgan Jerkins joins Lyz to read reader emails and give some frank advice and heartfelt insight to your divorces, break ups, and new lives.
If you like what you hear, preorder This American Ex-Wife and subscribe to this newsletter. It’s the best way to support our work!
Show notes:
* You can read more work by Morgan Jerkins by buying her books. You can also follow her on Twitter or Instagram.
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz (@LyzLenz) and produced by Zachary Oren Smith (@ZachOSmith). Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot (@tape_remover).
Marriage and divorce are not experienced the same way for men and women. The same is true for white and Black women. Sociologist Aneeka Henderson has written extensively about the marriage economy and the obstacles that limit opportunities even in marriages for Black people.
If you like what you hear, preorder This American Ex-Wife and subscribe to this newsletter. It’s the best way to support our work!
Also, if you preorder the book you can get stickers and a signed bookplate! The giveaway ends this Friday!
Show notes:
* Aneeka Henderson’s Veil and the Vow is an important read. It shifted my understanding of the way marriage functions in society and pop culture.
* In the show, we talk about the Moynihan Report. In 2015, Ta-Nahisi Coates wrote a long analysis of the report’s legacy that is worth revisiting. The essay puts into focus how Americans understand poverty and marriage. And a lot of the myths perpetuated by the Moynihan report persist today.
* I also thought this write-up about the Moynihan Report was very smart and worth the time it takes to read. And Tressie McMillan Cottom has this analysis.
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz (@LyzLenz) and produced by Zachary Oren Smith (@ZachOSmith). Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot (@tape_remover).
Poet and best-selling author Maggie Smith shares how her divorce made her spend more time with someone she didn’t expect: herself. She explains how she learned to leave room for that self even as she shares part of it in her work.
If you like what you hear, preorder This American Ex-Wife. It’s the best way to support this work.
I am currently running a giveaway! If you preorder the book, I’ll mail you a “Burn it down” sticker and a signed bookplate!
Show notes:
* Buy Maggie’s book You Could Make This Place Beautiful.
* You can also read Maggie’s newsletter For Dear Life with Maggie Smith
* The quote I think about the most from Maggie’s book is this one: “The best things to happen to me individually were the worst things to happen to my marriage. And then, this: But the best things remain.”
* This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz and produced by Zachary Oren Smith . Illustration by Alessandro Gottardo. Show art by Suzanne Glémot.
“Catharsis” with Candice Luter
Many suspect that their partner is cheating on them. Few of us show up outside the motel room to catch them in the act. Candice Luter gets honest about insecurity, breaking and recovering after her ex showed who he really was.
If you like what you hear, preorder This American Ex-Wife and subscribe to this newsletter.
You can listen to the podcast by clicking the link above. Or you can find this podcast on all your favorite podcast apps. If you need help finding it, here is a link!
This American Ex-Wife is hosted by Lyz Lenz and produced by Zachary Oren Smith. The illustration for the show was drawn by Alessandro Gottardo. Art was made by Suzanne Glémot.
Show notes:
* You can find Candice’s amazing designs on her Etsy store. And on her website. You can also find Candice on Instagram.
* In the podcast, Candice talks about her asemic journaling. She is also offering her asemic journaling as a digital download for free!
Lyz’s own divorce lawyer Allison Werner Smith stops by to walk through the long road of a divorce. She explains how “the breakdown of the marriage relationship” can become a firmer foundation for a life.
If you like what you hear, preorder This American Ex-Wife. It’s the best way to support this work: https://linktr.ee/lyzlenzShow notes:
* In the show, I incorrectly cite this statistic about men and marriage and labor. In the podcast, I say men add eight hours of labor a week to their wives’ lives. It’s seven. My apologies to men.
* I also cite the statistic: 70 percent of breakups and divorces are initiated by women.
* Transcripts for the show are automatically generated by AI and linked in the drop-down box above.
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