The Unspeakeasy With Meghan Daum

Latest Episodes:

We Can't Know: Lisa Selin Davis On Getting Comfortable With The "Giant Mess" That Is The Current Gender Conversation Oct 08, 2021

Show notes

Part three of Gender Nuance, a three-part series for the week of October 4, 2021 In the third and final part of the podcast's weeklong "Gender Nuance" series, Meghan talks with journalist Lisa Selin Davis about the cultural and political forces that have factored into the current gender movement and why the media has failed to cover the whole story. The author of a book about the evolution of gender stereotypes and herself the mother of a gender nonconforming child, Lisa explains how the movement was galvanized by shifts in journalistic norms during the Trump administration and how institutions like schools, the nonprofit sector and the medical establishment got caught up in a worldview and treatment protocol that's backed up by very little reliable data. She traces some of the history of gender nonconformity and explains what the concept of a "third gender" means in indigenous, nonwestern populations in places like India and Samoa. Mostly, Lisa talks about what she's learned as a journalist covering gender issues in recent years and why it's so difficult to publish anything that deviates from the accepted narrative. Ultimately, she says, we have to accept that talking honestly about the subject entails dealing with "a giant mess" and that "we have to get comfortable with the fact that are some things we simply can't know." Guest Bio: Lisa Selin Davis is the author of Tomboy: The Surprising History of Girls Who Dare to Be Different, and the forthcoming Housewife: Exploding the Myths of Motherhood, Women's Work and the Modern Family. She has written articles, essays and op-eds for The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN and many other outlets, and has published two novels, Belly and Lost Stars. She writes a regular Substack newsletter about gender issues called Broadview.

"We Feel Like We're In The Wild West:" Parents of Gender-Questioning Kids Ask Their Own Questions Oct 06, 2021

Show notes

Part two of Gender Nuance, a three-part series for the week of October 4, 2021 In part two of this week's three-part "Gender Nuance" series, Dr. Laura Edwards-Leeper returns to answer questions from "Jolene and Marie," two pseudonymous moms of gender-dysphoric kids who were originally interviewed on The Unspeakable last July. Dr. Edwards-Leeper, who talked alone with Meghan in part one of this series, speaks about what is involved in a comprehensive assessment of a young person seeking medicalized treatment for gender dysphoria, how such dysphoria can exist independently of being transgender, and how and why an ideological rift has emerged within her field and, in her view, shut down crucial and lifesaving dialogue within the medical establishment. She also explains how the cohort of patients who are over eighteen but younger than mid-twenties can be especially vulnerable to the inadequacies of a system that often does not coordinate psychological care with medical intervention. Guest Bio: Dr. Edwards-Leeper is an Associate Professor in the School of Graduate Psychology at Pacific University in Hillsboro, Oregon. She also works with clients through her private practice in Beaverton, Oregon. Dr. Edwards-Leeper was a member of the American Psychological Association Task Force that developed practice guidelines for working with transgender individuals. She is currently the Chair of the Child and Adolescent Committee for the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) and is involved in the WPATH Standards of Care (SOC) 8 revision. She is an ally to the LGBTQ community and is considered an international expert in this field.

What Do We Mean By "Gender Affirming Care?" A Conversation with Dr. Laura Edwards-Leeper Oct 04, 2021

Show notes

Part one of Gender Nuance, a three-part series for the week of October 4, 2021 Clinical psychologist Dr. Laura Edwards-Leeper has worked with transgender and gender questioning youth since 2007 and has helped facilitate many successful medical transitions in young people. She has also, in the last year or so, begun to publicly voice concerns that some clinicians in her field have adopted a philosophy that overlooks, even eschews, the importance of proper patient assessment. In this conversation, the first of a three-part series this week, Dr. Leeper talks with Meghan about the concept of "gender affirming care" and how lack of access to specialized care can lead young patients to providers who follow protocols for adult patients, which may or may not be appropriate. She describes how she works with her own patients and talks about why something as fundamental as proper assessment has become so controversial in her field. Guest Bio: Dr. Edwards-Leeper is an Associate Professor in the School of Graduate Psychology at Pacific University in Hillsboro, Oregon. She also works with clients through her private practice in Beaverton, Oregon. Dr. Edwards-Leeper was a member of the American Psychological Association Task Force that developed practice guidelines for working with transgender individuals. She is currently the Chair of the Child and Adolescent Committee for the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) and is involved in the WPATH Standards of Care (SOC) 8 revision. She is an ally to the LGBTQ community and is considered an international expert in this field.

The Awkward Files: Father-daughter coauthors Dr. Drew and Paulina Pinsky Bridge the Generation Gap Sep 27, 2021

Show notes

Meghan's guests this week are father and daughter Dr. Drew Pinsky and Paulina Pinsky, who are coauthors of the new book, It Doesn't Have To Be Awkward: Dealing With Relationships, Consent and Other Hard-To-Talk-About Stuff. In the book, they address issues around relationships, boundaries and sexual consent and seek to bridge the generation gap between baby boomers like Drew and millennials like Paulina 28. (Gen-Xers are once again excused from the table.) In this interview, Drew and Paulina talk about why this particular generation gap seems more pronounced than previous ones, especially with regard to young people wanting to leave the nest. They also talk about how the oft-cited concept of "boundaries" is much broader and more complex than we often assume, which Paulina learned when she started college and compulsively introduced herself to everyone she met. (Meghan did this, too, and was affectionately deemed by one friend "a conversational slut" —a totally okay thing to say back then!) As a longtime devotee of Loveline, the no-holds-barred syndicated radio call-in program that Drew co-hosted with Adam Carolla for three decades, Meghan is especially keen to parse generational differences as they apply to cultural sensitivities and comic sensibilities. As such, they revisit a classic Loveline clip from long ago featuring David Alan Grier riffing off the names of birth control pills as hypothetical names for his children. Paulina, who writes comedy herself, explains what she thinks of that bit while Drew talks about how much he misses those days. Guest Bios: Dr. Drew Pinsky is a practicing internist and addiction medicine specialist, a New York Times bestselling author and prolific television, radio and podcasting host. In addition to his thirty-plus years hosting the iconic radio show Loveline, he has hosted numerous award-winning television shows including Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew on VH1 and DrDrew on HLN. His digital platforms include The Dr. Drew Podcast, the Adam and Dr. Drew Show, and Dr. Drew After Dark, and his two streaming shows, #AskDrDrew and Dose of Dr. Drew. Paulina Pinsky teaches comedy writing to high schoolers at Columbia University and writes about female sexuality and feminism. She holds an MFA from Columbia University and lives in Brooklyn, NY.

Free To Be You and #MeToo: Erika Schickel on Coming of Age—and Coming Undone—in the 1970s Sep 20, 2021

Show notes

Gen Xers and young Baby Boomers can be nostalgic about the freedoms of growing up in the 1970s. But there was a darker side to that era, too, especially for girls. Feminism was on the ascent, but the sexual revolution was moving even faster, bringing profound changes to behavioral norms and assumptions about pleasure and consent. In her new memoir, The Big Hurt, Erika Schickel recalls a childhood that was both magical and ruinous, one in which she played freely on the streets of her Manhattan neighborhood but, at the same time, attended a private school where (with the blessing of the headmaster) Hollywood casting agents scouted for girls to audition for the role of a child prostitute in the film Pretty Baby (incidentally, Jeffrey Epstein was teaching math at this school at the time). As a teen at boarding school, Erika was seduced by a male teacher and asked by the administration to leave before graduation. Her mother, meanwhile, applauded the relationship and Erika even briefly lived with the teacher before heading off to college. Decades later, while living the life of a conventional married mom in Los Angeles, Erika found herself embroiled in an obsessive affair with the legendary crime writer James Ellroy, a man who was himself damaged by the violence and tragedy of his youth. Erika spoke to Meghan about the book and the revelations that came to her over the more than ten years it took her to write it. During those years, the #MeToo movement came along, further complicating Erika's story while making it all the more relevant. Guest Bio: Erika Schickel is the author the memoir The Big Hurt (Hachette Books, 2021) and You're Not the Boss of Me: Adventures of a Modern Mom (Kensington Books, 2007). She has taught memoir and essay writing at UCLA and privately. Her work has appeared in The Los Angeles Times, LA Weekly, LA City Beat, Salon, Ravishly, Tin House, Bust Magazine, and The LA Review of Books, among others.

The WEIRD World Is Killing Us: Evolutionary Biologists Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein On Why Modern Life Feels So Unlivable Sep 13, 2021

Show notes

Husband and wife evolutionary biologists Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein are the authors of the new book A Hunter Gatherer's Guide To the 21st Century: Evolution and the Challenges of Modern Life. Former professors at Washington's Evergreen State College, their involvement in a 2017 controversy that became a touchstone "campus culture war" event led them to become major figures in the so-called "heterodox" intellectual space. They now cohost livestreams of Bret's popular Dark Horse Podcast, where they talk about social, political, scientific (and sometimes medical) issues through an evolutionary lens. In this conversation, Bret and Heather talk with Meghan about their new book, which is premised on the idea that society has become "hypernovel," meaning that the rate of change is so rapid that "our brains, bodies, and social systems are perpetually out sync." They define what they mean by the "WEIRD" world (Western, Educated, Industrialized, (relatively) Rich, and Democrat) and explain why human mating and reproductive strategies— and the community structures that are designed to support them — evolved the way they did. They also untangle mysteries such as why appendicitis is almost unknown in the non-industrialized world, why hunter-gatherer civilizations didn't need orthodonture, and why monogamy is still the best bet for the survival of the human species, despite some rumors to the contrary. Finally, they discuss recent controversial statements they've made about the COVID-19 vaccine and the drug Ivermectin. Guest Bios: Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein are evolutionary biologists who have been invited to address the US Congress, the Department of Justice and the Department of Education, and have spoken before audiences across the globe. They both earned PhDs in Biology from the University of Michigan, were professors at the Evergreen State College for fifteen years, and have more recently been visiting professors at Princeton University. They cohost the weekly livestreams of Bret's podcast the DarkHorse podcast. Heather is the author of the 2002 book Antipode: Seasons With the Extraordinary Wildlife and Culture of Madagascar and writes the Substack newsletter, Natural Selections.

The Incel Phenomenon Is Not a Movement (Or A Terrorist Group). Naama Kates on What We Get Wrong About Society's Saddest and Most Reviled Men Sep 06, 2021

Show notes

Incel stands for "involuntary celibate" and refers most often to young men whose sexual and romantic rejection has led them to spend lots of time denigrating women online. Over the last decade, a handful of high profile mass killings has led to a media narrative suggesting that incels are an organized hate group of violent misogynists. They've even been classified as a domestic terrorist threat. But Naama Kates, host of the podcast Incel, has been studying and interviewing these men for years and found that the incel phenomenon is not as simple—or as dark—as we've been told. She spoke with Meghan about who these young men really are, what cultural and political forces are shaping them, and what factors often go overlooked in favor of easy assumptions about male ideologues. She also talked about the prevalence of mental health struggles and autism as well as changing social norms that can favor girls and demonize or ridicule boys.

Relevant links:

Incel Podcast

How Many Bones Would You Break To Get Laid? New York Magazine

Misogyny and the co-oping of the Isla Vista Tragedy Los Angeles Times

Guest Bio:

Naama Kates is a writer, producer, and creator of Incel, a popular weekly podcast for Crawlspace Media. The show is a deep dive into the involuntary celibate community, and features dozens of interviews with incels, as well as researchers and practitioners in mental health, law enforcement, and security. The show has been featured in the New York Times, Vulture, NY Magazine, CTV, and News 4. Naama has a background in Computer Science and linguistics.

Chelsea Handler Checks Her Privilege. (And spars a little with Meghan.) Aug 30, 2021

Show notes

Meghan met actor/author/comedian Chelsea Handler several years ago when they attempted to develop Meghan's 2014 book, The Unspeakable (no direct connection to this podcast) into a television series. In fine Hollywood tradition, the project failed to launch, but the two remained friendly and Chelsea agreed to come on Meghan's podcast to talk about her own podcast, Dear Chelsea, which offers advice to lovelorn or otherwise tormented or confused listeners. Chelsea talked about the advice she's both given and received (and often ignored) over the years, her foray into psychotherapy, her interrogation of her own privilege, and the effect of Trumpism on her political consciousness and mental health. Along the way, she argued a bit with Meghan about progressive activism and challenged Meghan's assertion that seeing everything through the lens of race is itself a form of racism. Chelsea also discussed her views on parthogenesis, a form of natural asexual reproduction that's seen in certain reptiles and that might have surprising benefits in humans. Guest Bio: Chelsea Handler is a comedian, television host, and bestselling author. For seven years, she was the host of E!'s top-rated late night show Chelsea Lately and the only female late night talk show host on the air. She then launched a documentary series, Chelsea Does, followed by her talk show Chelsea on Netflix in 2016. Five of her six bestselling books have reached number one on the New York Times Bestseller list, including 2019's Life Will Be The Death of Me. Most recently, she released her first stand-up special in over six years, the critically acclaimed Chelsea Handler: Evolution on HBO Max, and launched her iHeart Radio advice-based podcast, Dear Chelsea. She is currently on tour with a new standup show, Vaccinated and Horny.

How Not To Ruin The Dinner Party: A Conversation with Sam Harris Aug 23, 2021

Show notes

Sam Harris is a giant in the world of podcasting. His podcast, Making Sense, which began in 2013 under the name Waking Up, averages more than a million downloads per episode. He is also a philosopher and neuroscientist, a meditation expert, the author of several bestselling books, and a prominent voice in both the "new atheist movement" and in "heterodox" intellectual circles, which has led him to have public debates and disagreements with other high profile thinkers. Meghan and Sam cover lots of ground in this long conversation, including the perils of confusing messaging around vaccines, the cowardice of institutional leadership in the face of social media mobs, and why the debate format can be, as Sam puts it, "a commercial for the limitations of conversation." Most of all, they talk about what Meghan calls the question of "how not to ruin the dinner party," which can happen when people who think too much about all of this stuff (like they do) engage in intellectual nitpicking and ruin everyone's fun. Guest Bio Sam Harris is a neuroscientist, philosopher, and author of five New York Times best sellers, include The End of Faith, The Moral Landscape, Free Will, Lying, and Waking Up. Sam hosts the popular Making Sense podcast and is also the creator of the Waking Up app, which offers a modern, rational approach to the practice of meditation and an ongoing exploration of what it means to live a good life. Sam has practiced meditation for over 30 years and has studied with many Tibetan, Indian, Burmese, and Western meditation teachers, both in the United States and abroad. He holds a degree in philosophy from Stanford University and a Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA.

Don't Let The Loudest Voices Win: Frank Bruni on the Fine Art of The Subtle Point Aug 16, 2021

Show notes

Frank Bruni spent more than 25 years at The New York Times, the last ten of them as a columnist on the opinion page. In June, he left the column to become a professor of public policy and journalism at Duke University. Frank spoke with Meghan about the difficulties — maybe the impossibility— of writing a weekly opinion column while also maintaining intellectual humility and engaging with your own uncertainty. The author of many books, including a book about higher education, Frank explained how "campus craziness" tropes have been distorted by the media even though students continue to disagree about free speech and administrators continue to pander to a small minority of loud extremists. He also talked about an ongoing medical issue that threatens his eyesight and about which he writes in a forthcoming book. Guest Bio: Frank Bruni was a New York Times opinion columnist from 2011 to 2021. He has also served as a White House correspondent, Rome bureau chief and chief restaurant critic for the Times. He is the author of three New York Times bestsellers and his newest book, The Beauty of Dusk, about affliction, aging and his brush with blindness, will be published early next year. He ended his op-ed column in June 2021 and moved from New York to North Carolina to become a professor of public policy and journalism at Duke University, but continues to write a popular weekly newsletter (www.nytimes.com/BruniLetter) for the Times.

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