The Partial Historians

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The Fall of Veii: Part I Feb 20, 2025

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396 BCE is finally here! Rome and Veii have been locked in a competition for space and resources for quite some time and it seems like the tide is about to turn. The year 396 BCE is perhaps one of the most significant years for Rome’s history in the early republic. Given the events at play, this episode is considering how the year begins and it might not be quite the thrills you might expect…Episode 158 – The Fall of Veii – Part IWhat’s going on with Rome’s magistrates?The situation with Roman magistrates in 396 BCE is quite complicated. We spend some time considering some of the challenges we face with the evidence. There seems to have been some problems with the military tribunes which leads to a changing of the guard. There also seems to be great fondness for the plebeian military tribune with consular power, Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, but is he really fit for public duties? We consider the details.The challenges of our sourcesWhile Livy is providing plenty of narrative material for 396 BCE, every other ancient source seems only interested in some of the big ticket events and not the finer details of family politics in Rome. How can we reconcile these different accounts? We’ll try our best!Success is not assured…Rome gets off to a bad start in 396 BCE with a botched Roman ambush led by Genucius and Titinius. After waiting so long with the siege business, it seems a couple of the military tribunes with consular power decide that a little bit of action might be preferable. But things do not go according to plan… it’s only a matter of time for panic to set in among the citizens.Things to listen out forThe gradual Etrurian retreat from Campania in favour of the northSome of the significant moments between Veii and Rome over the years including the challenges of the Fabian gens at Cremera (see Episode 82 – Fabian Demise), and the death of the king of Veii Lars Tolumnius (see Episode 129 – Lars Tolumnius and the Fate of Fidenae)The emphasis in the annalist tradition on the TEN years of conflict between Rome and Veii and the questions that might be asked about thisThe apparent lack of broader support for Veii from Etruscan city-states further northRome’s fondness for building up their enemies in their histories and other written evidenceChronological issues with the source material? Shock! Horror!Does Livy have a penchant for family histories? Licinius Macer is worth a mentionPeriander as Greek inspiration for Calvus?Homeric parallels!Igor taking a short breakOur Players for 396 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerLucius Titinius L. f. M’. n. Pansa SaccusPublius Licinius P. f. P. n. Calvus Esquilinus (Mr Original Plebeian in the role according to Livy)Publius Maelius Sp. f. C. n. CapitolinusQuintus Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus? (Pat)Gnaeus Genucius M. f. M. n. AugurinusLucius Atilius L. f. L. n. PriscusDictatorMarcus Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat)Master of the HorsePublius Cornelius P. f. M. n. Maluginensis (Pat)InterregesLucius Valerius (Potitus) (Pat)Quintus Servilius Fidenas (Pat)Marcus Furius Camillus (Pat)Our SourcesDr Rad reads Livy, 5.18.2-12Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus 12.13-16 and 13.1-3; Plutarch Life of Camillus 5-8; Diodorus Siculus 14.90.1; 14.93.2-3; Valerius Maximus 1.5.2; 1.8.3; Pliny Natural History 33.111; Appian Ital. 8; Florus 1.17; Aulus Gellius Attic Nights 17.21; Eutropius 1.20; [Aurelius Victor] De virus illustribus 23; Augustine The City of God 2.17; Orosius 2.19.1-4; Zonaras 7.21Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC: The Beginnings of the City and the Rise of the Republic (Edinburgh University Press).Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War (University of California Press) Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The Rise of Rome: From the Iron Age to the Punic Wars. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.Sound CreditsOur music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Additional sound effects from the BBC Sound Library,Partial Reconstruction of a Temple at Veii – Photo credit to ArtSupp.Automated TranscriptLighted edited for our wonderful Australian accents.Dr Rad 0:15Welcome to the Partial Historians.Dr G 0:19We explore all the details of ancient Rome.Dr Rad 0:23Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr RadDr G 0:33And I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 0:44Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr RadDr G 1:05and I am Dr G and I am so excited for this episode, because we are hitting a bonanza of a year. It is 396 BCE and oh boy. After a long time of not a lot happening, except people sitting around in a siege. I think something might be about to happen, Dr Rad.Dr Rad 1:26I think you might be right. Dr G, oh, it's been 10 long, wintry years.Dr G 1:31Yeah, look, I've grown a whole fur coat in that period of time, and it's not going away.Dr Rad 1:38Oh, Dr G, this is a big year. And you know, I was saying to you the other day off mic, that it feels a bit like our podcast journey sometimes oddly mirrors that of ancient Rome, because during the early republic, due to locations of recordings being switched around and issues with microphones, etc, etc, we had some ups and downs in terms of our experimentation with the show, and I feel like we've got it all sorted out just in time for 396 which you could kind of see as one of the most important years in early Republican history, I think.Dr G 2:16This is a massive time, so we're building the hype, and I don't think that this is something that we're over hyping at all. This is actually going to be an exceptional time in Rome's history, and the Romans know it as well. Just to put that out there, maybe a little bit too much, they are well aware, and when they write their histories about this time period, there is a great consistency to the sorts of things that they talk about. So I'm looking forward to delving into that. But perhaps we should do a bit of a where are we at recap, before we dive in.Dr Rad 2:54You read my mind, I was going to say I know we did talk. I know that every time Veii has come up, we have talked about the relationship between Rome and Veii, but this is the last time that we're probably going to really need to do this, and it is the end of the big conflict, the big feud. So I do think a recap is in order.Dr G 3:17Veii? Who are you and why do you exist?Dr Rad 3:22Why are you so far south? Why can't you be further north, like all the rest of the Etruscan cities?Dr G 3:27Well, the thing about Eturia as a kind of a group of people is that they used to be much further south than they appear to be by the time we get into Roman history proper. So as far as we're aware, there's good evidence for the Villanovan culture, which is the precursor to Etruscan culture. Archeologically, as far down as Campania, which is, you know, the Amalfi Coast, Naples, Positano, Pompeii, Herculaneum…Dr Rad 3:57All the gorgeous places to go on holiday.Dr G 3:59Exactly. And so Etruria actually extended right through the region where Rome has sort of popped up like a little city state mushroom. And now we're dealing with what is a legacy of kind of a fallout of many centuries of Etruscan retreat out of the south and the more substantial investment that they've had in their northern places of influence, so all the way up to what is now modern Milan, for instance.Dr Rad 4:30Yes, this is true, and we have seen some really interesting dynamics between the Etruscans and the Romans over the centuries. If we go back to our beloved regal period, Dr G, although we don't know exactly what was going on with those last few things, with those last few kings.Dr G 4:48Oh, those guysDr Rad 4:49Yeah, those guys, those things, yeah, those things, the kings, we certainly know that there's obviously an interesting relationship between Etruria and Rome at that time period. Was it an invasion? Was it a hostile takeover? Did the Romans welcome them with open arms? We'll never know.Dr G 5:11But there's certainly lots of parallels in terms of the cultural exchange that seems to have gone on between early Romans and the Etruscans, and the fact that this rivalry between Rome and Veii has taken the shape that it has is mostly to do with their proximity to each other and the competition for local resources. So one of the things that has been a source of conflict is control of the salt pans at Ostia as the river hits the Mediterranean Sea, there's been competition about that they used to control it. Rome eventually seems to have taken over. Veii is pretty unhappy about that. And then we do see increasing violence across the fifth century BCE, where the archeology suggests that there is ongoing raiding across both sides, and a lot of that agricultural land that sits in between these two places, which are a mere few kilometers away from each other, has produced this sort of escalation in violence across the century. And now here we are at the moment of a siege, which has been taking place for years now. Rome's been sitting outside the gates of a being like hand over the keys, and the Etruscans inside. They are like, Not on your life.Dr Rad 6:33Well, this is the thing ,Veii is fairly well positioned in terms of the you know, this speaks to the fact that the Romans couldn't just waltz in and take it. And so there's probably no doubt that there was really a lengthy siege between Rome and Veii at this moment. However, was it a neat little 10 years as Livy wants us to think, Dr G?Dr G 6:57Well, I think that's debatable. There's obviously a lot of incentive to draw that Trojan War comparison that I think Livy explicitly references as well at some point. So, yeah, good times for the Romans.Dr Rad 7:13Yes, exactly. Yeah. So there's some questions about the exact length of this siege, but a lengthy siege, I think would be an order, given how well positioned Veii is, and we have seen conflict throughout the early republic with Veii, Dr G, just a quick reminder of some of the biggest hits.Dr G 7:33Yes, please.Dr Rad 7:34483 to 474. That's when we had the first conflict between Rome and Veii. And the Romans weren't always beaten, but that was, of course, the time period where there was a fairly significant defeat with the fabulous Fabians, where we had a family that was almost entirely wiped out when they tried to take on they on behalf of Rome.Dr G 8:00Yeah, so we get this sense that we've got elite families acting as local war bands in the region, and presumably they is touching on Fabian interests in the area. But Cremera is a sad day for the Fabians. And fabulous or not, they mostly don't make it through.Dr Rad 8:21Exactly. So doesn't end that well for Rome on that particular point, because that becomes a pretty infamous moment in Roman history. However, when we get to the 430s we have another conflict with Veii, and this, of course, involves the possession of Fidenae, which is tossed backwards and forwards between Roman ve throughout the years. And this is where we get the murder of those Roman ambassadors at Veii. And then in the conflict that ensued, we see the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius, slain by Cossus.Dr G 8:58Stabbed right through the groin. Yeah, what a time to be alive. So Fidenae, as far as we understand it from the archeological record, seems to also have been a mostly Etruscan populated area. So Rome has this real incentive as a sort of buffer zone, to take Fidenae, try to re populate it with Romans, colonialism, colonialism… and to create that sort of buffer point for themselves so that they can easily move forward towards they so the competition is really hotting up between these two by the time we get to what happens with Fidenae, and then also the devastation of they losing a king. And this feeds into a broader understanding of how are the Etruscans running themselves. And one of the narrative features of Rome's conversation about the Etruscans is that the Etruscans have a group of 12 kings, and that's kind of the leadership circle that runs everything. But it seems like what we can tell from the Etruscans is that there are a loose collection of city states that share some cultural interests. They have different leaders within the particular city states themselves who come together to talk about things. Now, whether that number is precisely 12 or some other number which isn't quite as pretty from a Roman perspective, I don't know.Dr Rad 10:36This is the big question. And then, of course, we've got the final conflict, the 10 year – asterix asterix – siege of Veii which is coming to an end in this particular year. Now, the interesting thing is that in this 10 years, we have seen they been continually rebuffed by its Etruscan sister, states, Sister cities. And this is something that the Romans, I think, find a bit puzzling, as well as modern scholars like ourselves. But I think that speaks to what you were just saying. The Etruscan cities are not a country or a nation in the way that we would understand it. In fact, even the way that they are represented in our sources might be a little bit questionable. We have these regular meetings where they all come together and they talk about matters that concern the Etruscan community. And this is where they says, Hey, I think I've got some remnants camped on my doorstep, little help. And the Etruscan saying, No. What some scholars have theorized is that maybe this collection was actually more religious in nature, or something along those lines, but it's been painted as more of a military or political alliance because the Romans maybe wanted to build up the nature of the threat that they were facing in taking on Veii.Dr G 12:04Okay. This is a classic Roman literary trope, which, like listeners, need to be aware of, because the Romans will do this at every opportunity. There is nothing more satisfying than winning against a very worthy opponent. So it's not cool to, like, just beat up your neighbors and be like, I did it, and everyone like you're a bully. So it's much better if you can be like, Look, these guys were aggressive. They're a really potent force to have to deal with. They've got lots of friends in the north, but they're not chipping in because they know these guys are on the wrong side of things, and they should just be bowing down to Rome at this point. So it produces a kind of narrative that allows Roman citizens to feel good about the violence that they do to other people. And I suppose if this was a more modern period in history, you might start to think of this as a kind of like military nationalism. This is not how the ancient Romans would have thought about it, but it certainly has that kind of quality to it where it's about justification. It's about being proud of the violence that you're able to do, and that means that the enemy has to be worthy of being conquered in the first place.Dr Rad 13:25Absol…

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Special Episode - Gladiator II with Dr Lindsay Steenberg Feb 06, 2025

Show notes

WARNING! This post and episode both contain spoilers!In case you somehow missed it, the hotly anticipated sequel to Gladiator (2000) hit the cinemas in November 2024. Gladiator II follows the story of Lucius Verus, the child of Lucilla and the hero from the first film, Maximus. Nope, we did not know that was a thing either.Poster for Gladiator II, Source: https://deadline.comAfter being separated from his imperial family following the death of his uncle (the Emperor Commodus), the adult Lucius ends up in the arena. His owner is Macrinus, an actual historical figure who served as emperor briefly in the third century CE. The film follows Macrinus and Lucius as they navigate the complicated political world of Rome under the Emperors Caracalla and Geta. Will Lucius be able to rid Rome of corruption, once and for all? (Dramatic music) Joining us today to discuss the film is the delightful Lindsay Steenberg.Special Episode – Gladiator II with Dr Lindsay Steenberg Dr Lindsay Steenberg is currently a Senior Lecturer in Film Studies at Oxford Brookes University where she co-ordinates the graduate programme in Popular Cinema. Her research interests are violence and gender in postmodern and postfeminist media culture. If you like true crime, you should definitely check out her back catalogue. Whilst Dr Steenberg has published widely and regularly presents at conferences, our particular point of connection is her interest in gladiators. She is the author Are you not entertained? Mapping the Gladiator Across Visual Media, which was published by Bloomsbury in 2020.We hope that you enjoy our conversation as we unpack:Arena action scenesThe naumachia scene from Gladiator IIMacrinus’ role in this filmGladiators and celebrityHistorical inaccuracy on screenOur vision for Gladiator III: Tokyo DriftSound CreditsOur music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.Dr Lindsay Steenberg's book Are You Not Entertained? Mapping the Gladiator Across Visual Media. We recommend it!Automated TranscriptDr Rad 0:00Hello. You're about to listen to a special episode of the partial historians, which is all about gladiator two, a movie set in the reign of Caracalla and GetasoDr G 0:12so we are warning you in advance that this conversation will contain spoilers if you have not yet gone to the cinemapost haste, my friends get there soon and come back and listen. Or if you don't care about spoilers, and in fact, you thrive in an environment where you know all of the details before you see a thing, please continue listening and enjoying.Dr Rad 0:35And it pretty much turns out as we all expected. Dr G Maximus came back to life and married me in the future, just as I always wanted. Finally, a New Zealand man finds his Australian bride, that's right, and now on with the show you.Music. Welcome to the partial historians.Dr G 1:10We explore all the details of ancient Rome,Dr Rad 1:15everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr rad andDr G 1:25I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. JoinDr Rad 1:36us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Hello and welcome to another special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr rad,Dr G 2:00and I'm Dr GDr Rad 2:02And we are super excited because we're going to be talking about another gladiator movie today. Dr G, just when you thought you couldn't get enough,Dr G 2:10I can't get enough. That's why I'm here, exactly. AndDr Rad 2:15we are super lucky to be joined by an expert, an international expert, Dr Lindsay Steenberg is currently a senior lecturer in Film Studies at Oxford Brookes University, where she coordinates the graduate program in popular cinema. Her research interests are violence and gender in post modern and post feminist media culture. If you like true crime, you should definitely check out her back catalog. Whilst Dr Steenberg has published widely and regularly presents at conferences, our particular point of connection is her interest in gladiators. She is the author of, are you not entertained? Mapping the gladiator across visual media, which was published by Bloomsbury in 2020. Being astute listeners, I am sure that you have all correctly guessed that she is here to discuss gladiator two with us, which was at time of recording, just released in cinemas. Welcome Dr Steenberg,Lindsay Steenberg 3:15thank you so much for having me and for giving me the opportunity to talk about one of my favorite subject matters gladiator movies, you'reDr Rad 3:23in good company here. You know, it's one of the things I think that we do the most around here. So look, we are so keen to talk a little bit about gladiator two with you, and also the aspects that you have looked at in your work. So we thought we might start off with the part that people probably remember most vividly when they see a gladiator film, particularly a Ridley Scott gladiator film, and that is, of course, the arena sequences. So please tell us what is often the function of the arena in Gladiator films.Lindsay Steenberg 3:54Okay, again, favorite subject matter within my favorite subject, yeah. So I've spent more time than really any human should, thinking about arena fights. And I can say that when it comes to the almost the genre of gladiator movies, they're the most important part. You can't have a gladiator movie if there's not any gladiating So I have spent quite a bit of time over quite a few different films, looking at the kinds of conventions, the way that the arena works. Why we keep going back there again and again? So in terms of what the function is really, it kind of defies the logic of a lot of action movies, which is, it isn't just story or spectacle, it's both at once. So you get them in a handy little place. The Arena fights almost a movie within a movie, it has a beginning, it has a middle, it has an end. You enter the amphitheater. You have some looking around to see what's there, some spectacle over architecture and bodies. You get the quality violence in the middle. And then you sort of exit the amphitheater, and that's the end of your of your. Little mini film within a film, they often are great places where you come to understand how power works in the film itself. It's a nice little structure. I mean, if you think about the way an amphitheater is designed in that in that oval kind of shape, it means everybody can see everybody else. So the kind of layers of the way that the looking works. It's like we in the cinema are looking at the amphitheater. The people who are in the audience are looking and being looked at. You've got the sort of authority figure sitting there watching, and we're watching them. Then you've got the people down on the sands doing their thing. So it really it becomes a way to further the plot, to show who's good, who's bad, who's skilled, who's dead. It also sort of provides an opportunity to raise the stakes of the plot. So you've got sort of Concerned Women are often there in the audience, rarely on the sands, and they can kind of look and look worried, or look very desiringly at the gladiators on the sands as well. That's a bit of a spectacle, in that sense, as well. And then the Gladiator, of course, is looking at the audience as well. And that's why you get are you not entertained? He's judging us for watching him. So it kind of does all of that at once, very economical kind of spectacle,Dr G 6:10a bit like an ancient panopticon where viewing is happening in all directions.Lindsay Steenberg 6:15It absolutely is. And that and the sort of really seamless functioning of power works. You know, you don't have to work for it. The shape almost guarantees that. And you know, the movies love that. They love that shape. You can do some amazing things just with a nice little pan across the audience with a nice aerial establishing shot to see the shape of the amphitheater, so you can see, see deliberately, the way that power works in a very spatial sense. IDr Rad 6:39must admit, I do love a good camera pan around the arena. It'sLindsay Steenberg 6:45got to be done. It's it's hard to tell who that gaze belongs to when you do the full kind of almost 360 probably to the gladiators on the sand. But it just get lets you see questions what the spectacle is. Maybe it's the audience. Because if you've seen, if you've seen the stars show Spartacus, the crowds and theaters are as much they're frequently naked. One wonders why? Well, I guess one does,Dr Rad 7:10yeah, they kind ofLindsay Steenberg 7:12look around and they're like, oh yes, look at the audience. So, you know, you get to do everything with that 360 pan.Dr G 7:17I think this sets things up really nicely, because you you've described it as this sort of miniature film within a film. And I do love that that kind of MIS on a beam aspect of it, and that leads us really nicely into thinking about what some of the conventions might be for these arena sequences. What are audiences expecting, and where have those expectations come from in cinematic history?Lindsay Steenberg 7:39Oh, I've got stuff on this. Let me tell you, it is a kind of mise en a beam. And one scholar describes it as a mise en spectacle. So, you know, a spectacle within the spectacle of the film. So the kinds of conventions that you get, it's really interesting. As somebody who studies film, I hate saying that, like, oh, it's universal. It's always the same. Because films, you know, reveal a lot about the time and place they were made and the time and place they're watched. But a gladiator fight is remarkably consistent. So the conventions are really, really sticky. We really like them. We're not giving them up as to where they came from. It's a little bit hard, you know, there's a there's a myth that may have basis in fact that when Ridley Scott was going to make the original gladiator film. Someone showed him a picture of the painting pelica verso, which has a gladiator waiting to kind of decide if he for the Emperor, decide if he's going to die. And it's, you know, so this neoclassical, sumptuous painting, and someone held it up and said, I want to make this painting into a movie. And that was how they kind of worked. So like in the Colosseum with those conventions. So the way the sort of typical, the typical arena fight goes is that you always want to have the pre fight sequence down in the backstage area, bonus points if it's in that nice little basement beneath the trap doors, kind of area that's very exciting. It always it often sounds really similar, like there's like whisperings of gladiators in the corner, this kind of metallic clangings, and then you have that beautiful from the dark tunnel into the amphitheater sequence. It's often sort of backlit, so you can see the outline, the silhouette. And then all of a sudden, you get the spectacle and that pan of of the arena and who's watching and who's there, the way that I sort of tend to shorthand describe what are the conventions of a gladiator fight. Are from the movie Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. So Tina Turner's there, Mel Gibson's there,Dr Rad 9:29two men into. One man leaves, two men enter, one man leaves. You know, howLindsay Steenberg 9:33do you do a gladiator fight? That's it. That's what you do. It's just two men enter. That's the scenario. That's the setup. But within that, of course, there's nuance, there's always a moment where the camera is going to spend a little extra time looking at the gladiator who wants you to have time to enjoy that he is part of the spectacle. You know, you're going to have a moment where, if the gladiator fight is between more than just one versus one, you're going to have a moment where the men bond, you know, where Maximus is like, you know, if any of you. Been in the army. Stick with me the same in the second film, like, Okay, guys, we're going to do this together. So you get the bonding, the Brotherhood of the gladiators. You sort of do that. You get that moment of the salute, which I know historians, it makes them a bit itchy, because it never happens, but Hollywood says it did, and apparently we love that. We want the gladiatorial salute. I noticed that in the second gladiator film, they don't really do that. I think they're sidestepping. They're trying not to get them themselves into some historical trouble. But the we who about are about to die, salute you is, is part of so many gladiator movies that we really like that, that part. So you normally get the salute before or the presentation of the gladiators before the fight. The fight is interesting because I am currently also writing a book now on fight scenes, so I spend a lot of time watching fighting. There's not as much fighting in an arena fight as one might expect. A lot of it is talking, planning, staring at rhinoceros, thinking about what you're going to do next, you know, giving a nice little speech to the crowd. How very dare you watch me staring at the Emperor? So, you know, the actual percentage of sword on shield action is quite small because it's, it's a narrative spectacles, whether as well as a violent spectacle. So you'll always get that talking the moment of sort of dialog in there. And then, of course, you always have the thumbs up or the thumbs down again. I think it's something that makes historians itchy, but it's something that Hollywood says, Yep, we want it. We want thumbs up, we want thumbs down. It's really easy and where it all comes from. I mean, I've probably, I've probably watched more gladiator movies than than most humans. Any human it comes from. The beginning of cinema, you get these kind of biblical or historical epics that were made in Italy. I mean, Hollywood loves a biblical epic. So you know, right down, even in the in the silent era, or the early era of cinema, that you still got these kind of conventions. You still would have somebody fighting animals inside of an amphitheater. You would still get the thumbs up, thumbs down. So it's, I'd say, that the gladiator fights on screen are as old as cinema, so they often involve Pompeii. That's that's a place we like to fight, andDr Rad 12:07we like it when the volcano erupts during a gladiator weLindsay Steenberg 12:11really do. If you can get gladiators fighting for their lives behind the volcano exploding, we get disaster movie. We get action movie. It's allDr Rad 12:17happening exactly, and what are they going to do to finish the fight or run?Lindsay Steenberg 12:21I think you'll find both. They're running, fighting what's happening, andDr Rad 12:27they should grab their romantic interest as they leave, because youLindsay Steenberg 12:31don't want to leave her. I mean, you do. A lot of ladies have been killed in Gladiator movies. They Yeah, in movies that were we watch now. Sometimes she doesn't even get a name. Maximus, wife has no name. She she's the dead wife, the murdered wife who who prompts him to vengeance. That didn't always used to be the case in an old Italian pedlum film, you often had the ladies had names. But in the millennial sort of moment, it was all about the sort of the gladiators trauma rather than any kind of romance. It seems that, you know, after Maximus, there's no love story anymore. We've abandoned that which is one sadness and violence. We wantDr Rad 13:14those Wistful glances. YouLindsay Steenberg 13:16know, so much wistful yeah,Dr Rad…

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Special Episode - Enemy of My Dreams with Jenny Williamson Jan 23, 2025

Show notes

We were titillated to speak to the scintillating Jenny Freaking Williamson. Jenny is one of the co-hosts of Ancient History Fangirl, which we like to consider part of the unofficial but highly exclusive #ladypodsquad. Jenny and Genn have been on our show before to discuss their fabulous book, Women and Myth, which was released in 2023. However, today Jenny is here to discuss a solo venture. She has just completed her debut novel, a historical romantasy called Enemy of My Dreams, slated for release through Harlequin in February 2025 and available for pre-order now.Enemy of my Dreams is set during the late Roman Empire and focuses on a romance between an imperial princess named Julia and a ‘barbarian’ leader, Alaric of the Visigoths. Julia was largely inspired by three historical figures: Julia the Elder (daughter of Augustus), Galla Placidia and Honoria.It was a delight to hear about Jenny’s process in crafting historical fiction.Special Episode – Enemy of my Dreams with Jenny WilliamsonHere are some quick bios for the ladies in question!Julia the ElderJulia the Elder was the only biological child of Augustus, which was a nasty surprise for him. Without a son, Julia’s importance as a dynastic pawn grew. She was married off to her cousin, then Augustus’ BFF Agrippa, and finally her stepbrother, Tiberius. Although it was normal for an elite woman to marry for the benefit of her family, there was a huge amount of pressure on Julia to in these scenarios, especially as her last marriage a trainwreck. Let that be a lesson to you – don’t marry your step-siblings!Julia was suddenly exiled for scandalous behaviour in 2 BCE… or was she plotting against her father? We will never know. All we can be sure of is her fate. Julia was exiled to the island of Pandataria before her exile was moved to Rhegium. She was never allowed to return and died of “malnutrition” early in the reign of Tiberius, her ex-husband. If Augustus intended to put his errant daughter in her place, mission accomplished. Bust of Julia the Elder by Egisto Sani on Flickr. Galla PlacidiaGalla Placidia lived hundreds of years after Julia, in the twilight of the 4th century CE. She was the daughter of Theodosius the Great, a very capable emperor (as the name implies). Sadly for Rome, he died in 395 CE and left the purple to his sons, Honorius and Arcadius, who split the empire between them. Placidia resided in the west with HonoriusThese were not easy times for Rome as there was a lot of movement around their borders, and within the empire. The Goths were looking for a new home and the Roman Empire was it! The Romans were not always so thrilled by this prospect. In Placidia’s youth, they decided to unite behind a Visigoth named Alaric. Alaric was a pretty successful guy, and in 410 CE he and his followers managed to penetrate the walls of Rome itself. It’s hard to put into words how shameful and shocking this event was for the Romans.It became even more embarrassing when Placidia was taken captive by the Goths. She remained with them for years, eventually marrying Alaric’s brother-in-law Athaulf, who became the leader of the Gothic forces after Alaric’s death. It is one of the tragedies of history that we know so little about this time in her life. Did she and Athaulf fall in love, or did it just seem wise to marry a man of status, given the circumstances?This could have been an interesting union that changed history as we know it, except that Athaulf was murdered soon after their wedding and eventually the Romans found the time to negotiate for her return. Placidia was married to her brother’s right-hand man, Constantius, whom she despised. Hatred is not an effective birth control method, and she had two children by this marriage. Honorius had not produced any children, so Placidia’s son was a likely heir.Placidia was highly respected in her lifetime for her piety and for her capabilities. When her brother died, she helped to engineer the succession of her son, Valentinian III. As Valentinian was so young, Placidia acted as regent, and she never really left the imperial stage. This probably had something to due with the fact that Valentinian was as useless an emperor as Honorius. She died peacefully in 450. She did not have to witness the assassination of Valentinian a few years later.HonoriaWe know very little about Honoria, the daughter of Galla Placidia and sister to the rather pathetic Valentinian III. Honoria was either born with a wild streak or developed one because she was oddly left single for too long, which was a weird status for an imperial princess. After an affair with one of the imperial stewards, she was being forced into a marriage with a rich senator. That oughtta fix this whole situation!Honoria refused to go down quietly. She may have contacted Atilla the Hun, the latest barbarian threat on the block. She sent him a ring and asked for his help – was this an offer of marriage? Atilla certainly thought so.We don’t know much about Honoria’s life after this treasonous act, aside from the fact that Placidia intervened to prevent her execution, and she was not given over to Atilla when he came knocking for his bride. She fades into obscurity, best known for this bizarre rebellion. Jenny Williamson pictured with her book. Enemy of My DreamsYou can order Enemy of My Dreams now through your local independent bookstore, as well as online suppliers such as Amazon. Use this link! For our fellow Sydneysiders, you might consider Abbey’s Bookstore.If you’re keen to follow Jenny’s work, we suggest checking out her blog and the wonderful Ancient History Fangirl podcast.And if you would like to read more about the history behind this novel, you might consider consulting the following:A History of Roman Empire in 21 Women by Dr Emma Southon – a highly readable, humorous work which has a chapter on Galla Placidia.Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire – our light-hearted guide to Rome which contains entries on both Julia and Galla Placidia.Alaric the Goth: An Outsider’s History of the Fall of Rome by Douglas BoinAt the Gates of Rome: The Battle for a Dying Empire by Don HollwayGalla Placidia: The Last Roman Empress by Hagith SivanJulia Augusti by Elaine FanthamWomen and Politics in Ancient Rome by Richard Bauman, which has a relevant chapter on Julia the Elder’s timeAs well as the many primary sources on both of these women, many of which can be found onlineSound CreditsOur music is by Bettina Joy de GuzmanAutomated TranscriptDr Rad 0:15Music. Welcome to the partial historians.Dr G 0:18We explore all the details of ancient Rome,Speaker 1 0:23everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr rad andDr G 0:33I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Speaker 1 0:44Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Dr G 0:54Welcome to this special episode of the partial historians. I am Dr GAnd I am Dr RadAnd we are absolutely thrilled to be joined today by Jenny Williamson. Now we have talked to Jenny before. She is one of the fabulous co hosts of ancient history fangirl and part of the exclusive and unofficial lady pod squad. So we had Jenny and Jen on the show to discuss their book, women and myth, which was released in 2023 which doesn't feel like that long ago, but at the same time, is actually ages ago. And we're really excited to have Jenny here today to discuss her latest solo venture. She's just completed her debut novel, which is labeled as a historical romanticy. And I love that sort of portmanteau of going on there, and it is called enemy of my dreams, and it's going to be coming out in February 2025, at the time of recording. It's a pre order situation. But maybe when you hear this episode, it'll be out and about, in which case you should just go and grab it. Welcome to the show. Jenny,Jenny W 2:08hi. Thank you so much for having me.Dr G 2:12It is an absolute pleasure.Jenny W 2:16So much fun.Speaker 1 2:17So look, enemy of my dreams is right up our alley as it takes place in the later Roman Empire. We love our things Roman, and one of the lead characters is Alaric of the Visigoths. However, we are most interested in your female lead, Julia, daughter of the Emperor of Rome, Theodosius the great. And we're here to talk about the history that inspired you to create this intriguing character today. So we believe that there are three women from ancient Rome whose lives inspired your story, Julia, the elder, daughter of the First Emperor. I'm using my little flesh rabbits there Augustus, as well as some women from the fifth century CE such as the Empress gala Placidia or plaquitia, depending on your preference, and her daughter, Honoria. So we're very excited to delve into that today.Jenny W 3:14Yes, I am so thrilled to talk about all these ladies.Dr G 3:18So I think we'd still like to start with, like, maybe the originator of bad women under the imperial system, and that would be Julia the elder. And I love this woman. She's great. I'm wondering if you can talk us through a little bit about her family connections and her character. Yeah,Jenny W 3:40so Julia the Elder is such a she's such a fun character for me. And I really, I think that my very early draft of this book, my Julia was just absolutely straight up Julia the elder, like she was just and Julia the Elder as a, sort of like very surface reading of Julia the Elder, who is very much just like a party girl who likes to sleep around and do what she wants, you know, which is kind of like I said the surface reading, she was the only biological child of the Emperor Augustus, quote, unquote, Emperor Augustus, you know. And listeners of our podcast will also know him as Octavian. We had a whole series about Mark Antony and Cleopatra, in which he figured very prominently. And we're gonna do a series on him later on in the year, I think, where he takes the Empire the, you know, Rome from Republic to Empire. So she was his only biological daughter, his only child, and he had her with, I believe it would have been his second wife, scribonia, and his first wife. I think, was I correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it was the daughter of Fulvia, who he married very early on and then wound up cruelly rejecting based on the sort of wars that he was having with Mark Antony, who was her dad. So that was his second wife, Scribonia, and I think he divorced her while she was pregnant. And definitely did, yeah, embarrassing, yeah, to marry his third wife, Livia, who was also a badass. And I believe that Julia the Elder as a child, was sent to live with Livia, her stepmom, and was taught to be like a noble woman in her house. She grew up and was engaged to various people, starting at a very young age, wound up being married, I think, first to her cousin at a very early age, I want to say, like 14 or 15 or something like that. Her cousin was Marcellus, was maybe a few years older. He died, and she wound up being married to Agrippa, her dad's best friend, who was also her dad's age. Ew, yeah, gross. They were married for a little while. They had a bunch of kids together, and then when Agrippa died, her dad married her off again to his other son. Was it his adopted? I don't know. How are they related…?Dr G 5:57Yeah, Tiberius, he's Livia's son.Jenny W 6:00right? That's what it was, you're right. He did adopt him, yeah, he adopted him. So, like keeping, keeping their, you know, family trees straight in my head is always a struggle. But it was her step brother. So yeah, it was, yeah, she was engaged her own step brother. They hated each other. And I think ever since her marriage to Agrippa, there were rumors about Julia the elder, you know, sleeping around, having boyfriends. And as far as I know, this really kind of got started with Tiberius, who also had been married to somebody else, and was made to divorce that person, to marry Julia. Neither of them were happy about it. And at some point, Augustus was trying to put he was trying to take Rome from Republic to Empire. And he was doing a lot of things like trying to craft this sort of unifying story about who Rome was, and change the laws to, like, restore what he considered to be, quote, unquote, Roman greatness. And one of the problems he noticed was that the women they were just were having affairs and being slutty and horrible things. So he was like, you know, tightening these laws around women and reducing their freedoms and kind of expecting them to be more embodying of the traits of a, you know, virtuous Roman Matron. This involved a lot of spinning. As far as I know, he really expected his daughter, Julia, to embody all of these traits of like an upright Roman matron herself, and she just did not want to do it. And there were all these wild rumors about her sleeping with with men in the forum and doing all kinds of crazy things. And she got exiled to Pandatarea, where it was kind of like a prison situation. And she was there for, I don't know, several years, like very, very curtailed, and was eventually allowed to come back. I think she might have been, I'm not 100% sure, but I think she might have been exiled several times. SheSpeaker 1 7:46was allowed to return to the mainland, I believe, for some of her exile, but she was never taken out of exile, and she actually died in exile under Tiberius, yeah,Dr G 7:58yeah. So yeah. Part of what happens is that when Julia is exiled. So this is in around two BC, she goes to Pandataria, this island in the Mediterranean. And do you think to yourself now, oh, that sounds not so bad, but it's not ideal when you're an imperial daughter and you're used to living in the city, and now you're on like, you know, a goat ridden island in the middle of the Mediterranean. Her mother, Scribonia, goes with her, so that's nice. She's got a mum, and they do have fun, so they're able to live a modest life. But what Tiberius does is he withdraws all funding from the exile, so they are essentially a starved to death. I don't know how they end up actually dying, but the withdrawal of funds sort of means that they're unable to maintain any life whatsoever, and it seems like they maybe haven't made enough friends on the island to sustain a life and be taken in by others.Dr Rad 8:58Ancient Rome. Survivor edition, yeah, exactly.Dr G 9:02It's like, there were only chickens here.Jenny W 9:05I don't think there would have been people to befriend. I mean, there were maybe not even that, I don't know. Like it was a very dire situation, right? I remember doing an interview with an author who had written a book, kind of a fictionalized version of the life of Julia the younger, and Julia the elder was in it as well. Who Julia the younger was also exiled for something like 20 years. And we were discussing like, the dangers of having this happen, where you were ex, you're sent into exile and then starved to death, or perhaps, you know, beaten by the guards, or really mistreated like this is not a good situation. And what she was telling me, her name is Tana Rebellis. She has she's written some really interesting, I think it was a duology about Julia the younger. But what she was discussing was how, you know, the power of Augustus in his time meant that the guards were gonna be pretty careful about Julia the elder, at least maintain her health and make sure she was okay. When Augustus died like that, was when you had to worry about the guards. That's when it got a little more dangerous because you didn't have that protection anymore. Yeah,Dr G 10:07and certainly, like, the orders are now coming from somebody else, and they're coming from somebody wh…

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Special Episode – Storylife with Professor Joel P. Christensen Jan 09, 2025

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We are thrilled to sit down in conversation with Professor Joel P. Christensen to discuss some of the ideas explored in his forthcoming book Storylife: On Epic, Narrative, and Living Things (Yale University Press).Special Episode – Storylife with Professor Joel P. ChristensenJoel Christensen is Professor of Classical Studies at Brandeis University. He received his BA and MA from Brandeis in Classics and English and holds a PhD in Classics from New York University. His publications include A Beginner’s Guide to Homer (2013), A Commentary on the Homeric Battle of Frogs and Mice with Erik Robinson (2018), Homer’s Thebes: Epic Rivalries and the Appropriation of Mythical Pasts with Elton T. E. Barker (2019), and The Many-Minded Man: the Odyssey, Psychology, and the Therapy of Epic (2020). Professor Christensen is also famous online for his engaging work on ancient Greece and Rome through his website sententiaeantiquae.comIn this episode we delve into some of the ideas that Christensen explores in his forthcoming book Storylife: On Epic, Narrative, and Living Things (Yale University Press). With chapters exploring Homer in tandem with the COVID-19 pandemic and people’s response to it, particularly in the context of the United States.Things to listen out forThe power of epic poetry to have therapeutic benefitsBiological analogies for the considering the life of narrativesApproaching our understanding of the world and the affairs of people with generosityThe Homeric Question(s)The dangers of the God-Author model when considering written textsOn the significant differences between oral approaches to authority and written approaches to authorityThe arboreal metaphor for thinking of the Iliad and the Odyssey as objectsEpic poetry and DNA (and some of the poetic meter!)The challenges of language whether its epic poetry or just going to language classThe problem with Greek heroes and the protective nature of epic poetryThe opportunity for ‘rehumanisation’ that comes from engaging with storiesA call for an education revolution!The cover for StorylifeIt's All Greek to Me!Keen on the Ancient Greek recited by Professor Christensen in this episode?He recites the opening line of the Iliad: μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος which can be found online at Perseus.And he also cites the first line of the Odyssey: ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ which can also be found online at Perseus.Books (and film) mentionedBarbara Graziosi 2002. Inventing Homer: The Early Reception of Epic (Cambridge University Press ) Ruth Finnegan 1979. Oral Poetry: Its nature, significance and social context (Cambridge University Press) Walter J. Ong 2012. Orality and Literacy: The Technologizing of the Word (Routledge)Rebecca Huntley 2020. How to Talk About Climate Change in a Way That Makes a Difference (Allen & Unwin) Cook, E. (1998). ‘Heroism, Suffering, and Change’ in D. Boedeker (Ed.), The Iliad, the Odyssey and the Real World: Proceedings from a Seminar Sponsored by the Society for the Preservation of the Greek Heritage and Held at the Smithsonian Institution, Washington D.C., on March 6-7, 1998 (pp. 47-63). Washington D.C.: Society for the Preservation of the Greek Heritage. Film: 2040 by Damon Gameau, released in 2019 Music CreditsOur music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.Automated TranscriptLightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!Dr G 0:15Welcome to The Partial Historians.We explore all the details of ancient Rome.Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr Rad.And I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Welcome everybody to a very special episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr G.And I am Dr Rad.And we are super thrilled today to be welcoming a special guest, Professor JoelChristiensen. Now, Joel Christiensen is professor of Classical Studies at Brandeis University. He received his BA and MA from Brandeis in classics and English, and holds a PhD in classics from New York University, and has many exciting publications in his back catalog, including ‘A Beginner's guide to Homer', ‘A Commentary on the Homeric Battle of Frogs and Mice' with Eric Robinson, ‘Homer's Thebes' with Elton T. E. Barker and ‘The Many-Minded Man:The Odyssey, Psychology, and the Therapy of Epic'. Also, Professor Christensen is famous online for his engaging work on ancient Greece and Rome through his website, which I'm about to mispronounce, sententiaeantiquae.comYup, you stuff that up completely.I did. Somebody correct me, please. Somebody correct me.Sententiae, I think.See, there you go. It's easy. Just don't rely on me for pronouncing things. So you could say, from this back catalog that we are incredibly starstruck and also completely out of our death, because we are Roman historians. And you will have noticed that Professor Christensen is really a Greek specialist in all of these sorts of areas that he's focused on in his work. And we are going to be really junior learners in this process of this interview, which we're excited about as we talk about Professor Christensen's forthcoming book, ‘Storylife: On Epic Narrative and Living Things', which is coming out in 2025 through Yale University Press. So thank you, Joel, so much for joining us.Professor Joel Christensen 2:57Hey, thank you for inviting me. I was so psyched when you guys sent that email, it's a pleasure to be here.Dr G 3:03Fantastic. Woo hoo. I'm glad that the excitement is mutual, because we're definitely starstruck. So this is, this is thrilling stuff. So to start off with, thinking about story life, in the preface, you say that this is an exploration of how we think about stories if we externalize them. And I'm wondering if you can take us a little bit about what led you to this idea to consider stories as external agents.Speaker 1 3:31Yeah, so I mean, what's probably connected and animated my work, in fact, my interest in scholarship, since I was, I don't know, middle school is thinking about how stories function in the world, why we respond to them so much, why we care about them and really like how we depend on them and what they do. And so, you know, for many years, in teaching myth, I, you know, grasp about for different metaphors and how to think about getting people to understand why makes vary, why stories are embedded in different contexts, and what similarities and differences from one context to another means. And at the same time, while I was doing this, I have been, as you note in the introduction, sort of habitually online, watching everything that's happened in Twitter and Facebook since it started, I'm, you know, I feel like I'm not that old, but I'm old enough to remember a world before Google and before Facebook. In fact, both debuted while I was in graduate school, and you really got a sense of watching them unfold, of how much faster narratives were moving and changing, and how they could really make people act in different ways. And so part of it is, for me, I've always felt sort of on the outside of what we might see as American centrism and what we do in the world. To go back again to around the time Google debuted, I was in New York City for 911. I was there for the peace protest. And you know, I lost friends and, like, ruined family relationships. Because from the beginning, I didn't understand why a terrorist attack in the US meant we should be going on an endless war and terror and, you know, invading Afghanistan, Iraq, all of those things. And so constantly, you know, I was interested in rhetoric, in politics. And then, you know, post the 2008 election and Obama, I got really interested in the way that stories shape our notion by identity and belonging to larger groups. And so that's a very long answer for your for your question, but I'm getting, you know, I'm getting to the point, I got to the point where I, you know, everyone's talking about intention and responsibility, like, who's creating stories, who's responsible for it? But one of the things that I think is really clear from watching the way narratives, you know, metastasize online and change, is I don't think there are agents, right? We can point to specific moments where someone floats in there, gets accepted, but it's so much more complicated than and so for me, what? But, you know, Trump's victory in 2016 like bored me. I was like, How does this happen? How do people think like we can actually do? And then what really made me start to think of narratives as being independent of us was our collective response of us, especially to COVID, just the very notion that people were rejecting vaccination, not believing that we could understand the way the disease is working, rejecting masking and public health things, you know, it made me think, well, what if, just for sake of argument, we imagine that stories have nothing to do with our attention, right, but that they have a reason for existing on their own, and they operate by their own logic. And what if, in this logic is the very logic that animates the rest of creation, which is the need to perpetuate itself, not for good, not for evil, just for basic survival. And so that, for me, was sort of the starting proposition, what would it mean to just think about stories as independent from us, and that, in a way, can help sort of soften the blow of us understanding that something that we create and participate in willingly actually causes us harm. And so for me, this is also connected. It's not just about COVID, of course. It's also about climate change, it's about so many of the narratives that we participate in that actually cause harm to us, individually and collectively. And so I think the ideas have been brewing and simmering for a very long time, but the real catalyst was just spending 18 months sitting at home watching us make bad decision after bad decision, and wondering if there's a different way of thinking about things.Dr G 7:45Yeah, I think that's really amazing. I think that puts things in a really great context as well, to set up, like the questions that we're going to start to delve into further as we get into this interview as well, but this sense in which stories sort of sit both outside of the realm of the self, but are also constantly interacting with us as we move through space and time. And I think your analogy of, well, it's not even an analogy, it's just a fact of history, the way that the explosiveness of the internet over time, and so I don't think that we're that old, either, but we also pre date some of that stuff.Speaker 1 8:24Well, I mean, look for full disclosure, my age. I'm 46 right? And, you know, the first time I ever sent an email was when I was a freshman in college, yeah. And, you know, I never used the internet till I applied for college. And so I think this means, to a certain extent, that my consciousness and cognitive capacity formed before that and have a different relationship to information, but we can see that change. It's like my parents talk about what life was like before cable TV. Like I really understand that, but I can clock the way it works. And just one thing to add to that, you know, that can another connection that that really primed all this thought is the work I did for my Odyssey book, which was really engaged in cognitive psychology and neurobiology and sort of collective notions of thinking and minds to sort of lay the basis for epic being a therapeutic experience. And I think one of our big challenges, and this again, lead back to the book, is as human beings, we are both culturally set up to think of ourselves as individuals and separate from things, and we're biologically encouraged to consider the world in that way, but our language and our engagement with ideas, with others, is actually a collective experience. And so I think one of the reasons why I find these analogies not just useful, but absolutely necessary, is it's so hard for us to defamiliarize ourselves, with our with the experiences that we have. Have like, we don't think well in the aggregate, and it's really hard to think outside of our individual subjectivity and imagine ourselves as part of a larger narrative ecosystem that shapes our identities, instead of sort of, you know, like free agents in the world making all of our own choices.Dr G 10:15Yeah, obviously, as of time of recording, to totally date this podcast, which I know we're not supposed to do. But hey, watch me do it yet again. We are obviously all reeling with the news of Trump's re election as of a few weeks ago, and definitely, as somebody who is constantly struggling with the lack of serious action on climate change, on the on the behalf of both institutions and individuals, I totally get what you're saying in terms of, it just constantly boggles my mind that this kind of stuff is happening in the world. And I do think it has a lot to do with with narratives and the way that people interact with them. Yeah, that's drive that, you know, helping to drive sort of action on these sorts of issues.Speaker 1 10:55No, I look it's mind boggling. And you know, the the stance I always had, you know, when we elected, when we re elected, George Bush in 2004 you know, my first stance was, everybody's stupid, right? But, but then I had to step back and say, look like, while it might be attractive to dismiss more than 50% of the country, like, we can't assume that everyone's just insane, right? Like, there has to be some other way to think about it, you know. And part of is about to reading people with empathy, trying to under, like, trying to understand the world in a generous way, which is really, really hard. And so that's where it's like, sort of, you know, to think of us as not individuals making rational decisions may seem to, you know, deprive us of agency, in a way, but it also is a fundamentally important framing for understanding human action, and I think that's one of our real challenges in public policy and education. Is really seeing that problem there, that we are part of these larger tides in the world. And no matter how much smarter more informed we think we are like, we still have to look at the larger picture.Dr G 12:11So perhaps to segue from modern American politics to ancient Greece, such a jump time traveling a little bit obviously, even the average person on the street is probably aware that one of the standout figures in ancient Greek thought and storytelling is Homer. And one of the big questions that usually concerns scholars of Homer is important enough to receive capitalized letters, which is the Homeric question. Can you briefly explain to us what the Homeric question is all about?Speaker 1 12:45So, so that modifier, briefly, there is, is a dangerous request, but I'll see. I'll see what I could do. So the Homeric question, it's not really one question, it's multiple questions, and it has the following elements, one first one are the alien the Odyssey by the same person in scare quotes? Two, whether or not they're by the same person, or if they are, are the alien Odyssey as we have them unitary? Are each of them whole in the way they're meant to be, instead of sort of Malcolm text that were put together by later, by later editors? Three if these texts are unitary, or if they not, or if they're not, what is the relationship between the texts we have and the oral tradition that we're very ce…

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From Delphi, With Love Dec 26, 2024

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In 398, the Romans received some worrying signs from the gods, and now we return with a special message for them: From Delphi, With Love.Episode 157 – From Delphi, With LoveIn 397 BCE, the Romans were waging war on all fronts. On top of their ongoing siege at Veii, they were contesting their hold on Anxur with the Volscians, and their colony at Labici against the Aequians. Never ones to shy away from drama, the Romans were also dealing with internal division between the patricians and the plebeians. PHEW! Sounds exhausting.Rude RaidersThe Tarquinii, from another part of Etruria, also noticed that the Romans had a lot on their plate. Now was their moment to attack and score some booty! The Romans were highly offended that anyone could even THINK of attacking them when they were already so busy. It was time for an etiquette lesson…The Romans wiped the floor with these rude raiders, but the rest of their campaigns were in a stalemate. They weren’t losing, but they weren’t winning either. Clearly they needed some divine help, direct from Delphi.The Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons. The ambassadors that had been seen to the Delphic Oracle after the sudden rise in the levels of the Alban Lake in 398 returned at this moment. They confirmed what the kidnapped soothsayer from Veii had told them in 398. Lower the levels of the lake and you will have your victory at Veii. Suddenly their captive seemed much more valuable.Getting SquareAside from their lack of military victories and the higher levels of water in the Alban Lake, the Romans discovered another sign that all was not right. When the magistrates for 397 had been proclaimed, something had gone wrong. Magistrates were proclaimed during the annual Latin festival for Jupiter Latiaris. If a mistake was made during the sacrifice or proclamation, there was only one thing to do. Get rid of this lot of magistrates and start all over.An interregnum ensued whilst the Romans sorted out their magistrate woes. Very unusually, the Romans set their sights on someone who was not even campaigning, Publius Licinius Calvus. Calvus had been the first confirmed plebeian to become military tribune with consular power and was known to be very moderate. But how would the Romans pull off his election? Tune in to find out more!Things to Look Out For: Aeneas’ dad, Latinus The Etruscans giving Veii the cold shoulder, AGAIN!Tips on the proper way to sacrifice a bullVolcanic activityRoman-style Christmas hampersHighlights of happenings in the wider Mediterranean worldOur Players for 397 BCEMilitary Tribune with Consular PowerL. Iulius L. f. Vopisci n. Iullus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 401L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409, Mil. Tr. c.p. 407, 405, 398, 395, 394, 391L. Sergius M. f. L. n. Fidenas (Pat)A. Postumius – f. – n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat)P. Cornelius P. f. M. n. Maluginensis (Pat) Cos. 393? Mil. Tr. c.p. 390A. Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 405, 402Legates; Ambassadors(Cn. Cornelius) Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 406, 404, 401(P.) Licinius (Calvus Esquilinus) Mil. Tr. c.p. 400, 396(L.) Valerius Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401, 398OR(C.) Valerius Potitus (Volusus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c.p. 415, 404(K.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 410, 404, 401, 395, 309?OR(Num.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 406Our SourcesDr Rad reads Livy, 5.16-18.Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 14.85.1; Fasti Capitolini. Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War (University of California Press) Kraus, C. S. 2020. ‘Urban Disasters and Other Romes: The Case of Veii’ in Closs, V. M., Keitel, E. eds. Urban Disasters and the Roman Imagination (De Gruyter), 17-31.Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.Young, J. 1875. ‘The Alban Lake’ The Athenaeum no. 2505, pp 575-576.Sound CreditsOur music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman.Automated TranscriptDr Rad 0:00Hi listeners. Before we get into today's episode, Dr G and I would just like to mention that we will once again be presenting at the podcast event of the year, Intelligence Speech in 2025 this event will be taking place on February 8, starting at 9am Eastern Standard Time. The tickets are $30 and are available at intelligentspeechonline.com this year's topic is deception. So we will be hearing about all sorts of fake history. And historical deception seems timely. Last year, we had a blast talking about Augustus failed attempts to secure an air and we're looking forward to presenting on something similarly Imperial and scandalous this year. We hope that you can join us and all your other favorite podcasters at Intelligent Speech, and now on with the episode youMusic. Welcome to the partial historians.Dr G 1:13We explore all the details of ancient Rome,Dr Rad 1:18Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage, and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr rad, andDr G 1:28I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 1:38Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr rad, andDr G 1:59I am Dr G, and I'm super excited to be here because we're about to talk about 397 BCE, indeed,Dr Rad 2:09we are Dr G as we trace the story of room from the founding of the city. But before we get to 397 Can we please quickly recap what happened in 398,Dr G 2:22look, there was some sort of lake. It rose up. I think that might be all I recall. Yeah, no, it was important. I didn't have a lot of evidence, but I think I had some things that suggested that, you know, we had a dangerous time. There was some reading of some portents, one of the people from they revealed the nature of the portent to the Romans, which then prompted the Romans to take some action to make sure the portent worked out in their favor.Dr Rad 2:51You are more correct than you know. Dr G, so we're right in the middle of this lengthy siege of they a rival Etruscan city to Rome, that even though we've got this very epic story, is actually not that far away. But we understand why the Romans want to conquer it. It's powerful. It's on their doorstep. It's from a rival peoples they want it for their close to home. Yeah, and it's been dragging on for a while. It's been causing internal tension in Rome over issues like military pay and military service. So the quicker this is wrapped up, the better. And last episode, we did indeed have a man from ve, potentially an older man, a soothsayer of some kind, being kidnapped, and he revealed that the only way Rome was going to be able to conquer the city of a was if they figured out how to deal with the excessive water in this particular lake that you mentioned.Dr G 3:52Now, intriguing. Now, I have to say, one of our Patreon supporters got in touch with us about this, to discuss the way that there is some evidence from a volcanology perspective, that's right, or the flooding of these kinds of volcanic lakes from volcanic activity that happens below them that then pushes the water up above the line that it usually sits at. So if you've got a lot of magma moving around under the surface, all of a sudden, you might get a situation which appears preternatural, but is actually the result of volcanic activity. And I loved the fact that they reached out with this detail, because I am not a volcanologist. I am an ancient historian. I was just baffled by this, like,Dr Rad 4:38what are you bringing to the show, if not volcanology, get out of here!Dr G 4:42Charm and good looks. Thank you.Dr Rad 4:43Well, that would make so much sense, and I agree with you. So glad that someone reached out with this detail. Because we are, of course, talking about the album like which is seemingly not connected to they, which is in completely the other direction. However, sign. Come from? Whence signs come? Dr, G, when the gods choose to speak, it may not be geographically appropriate, and that makes sense, because the Alban Mons was an active volcano up until around 1150 BC. I believe which, which might explain why there's not a lot of people living this area until just after that. So that kind of makes sense. You know, the volcano stuff, it adds up.Dr G 5:29It does. So I think that's an exciting detail that adds into this. Because you're like, Okay, that sounds like a really bizarre story on the surface, but there could be some natural phenomena that is feeding into what is some very unusual natural observations that are happening from the side of they and the portents that are suggested as a result.Dr Rad 5:50Yeah. So thank you very much. Patreon, listener for your volcanology tip and with that, Dr, G, I think We might be ready to dive into 397, BCE,Oh, all right. Dr G, 397 BCE, please tell me. Who are we dealing with as magistrates? This year,Dr G 6:33our players, the magistrates, we have a whole suite of military tribunes with consular power, and they're all patricians,Dr Rad 6:44back in the saddle again for the ride through the town with the elites. Yeah,Dr G 6:51look, you can have some successes in your siege under a plebeian leadership. But is that enough to keep them in power? No people who have always had power want it back, and they want it back yesterday, soDr Rad 7:05yesterday and forever. Dr, G, yeah,Dr G 7:07look so people we have in the role. We've got some names that are going to sound awfully familiar, and I think most of these people, by and large, have held positions before, or if not, they come from families that are going to be well known, well well heard amongst listeners, sure. So we have Lucius Iulius Vopisci.Dr Rad 7:31Ulis, yep, I definitely recognize that name, and I reconsider 90% of the people listening to this showDr G 7:38like a Julii in power. What are the chances? Previously, a military Tribune in 401 so really, quite recently, Lucius Furius Medullinus,Dr Rad 7:50yeah, yeah,Dr G 7:52a Furius back in the saddle. Previously, consul in 413, and 409 and previously, military tribunein 407, 405, but most importantly, 398, just the previous year. Methinks,Dr Rad 8:08you've got a bit of a monopoly on power.Dr G 8:11He certainly seems to hold a lot of position. So he seems to be quite popular new kid on the block, but very familiar name, Lucius Sergius Fidenas,Dr Rad 8:23yes, descended, I presume, from a branch of a family that's had something to do with the conquest of Fidenae, one would assume, yes,Dr G 8:34following up, also new to the role Aulus Postumius Albinus Regillensis, newDr Rad 8:40man, but perhaps very familiar name.Dr G 8:43Yeah, we're like, is that a new guy? Because that sounds like somebody we've talked about before. I agree. How many, how many, how many Postumii are there? We;ve then got Publius Cornelius, Maluginensis.Dr Rad 8:58I hate that name.Dr G 9:00Also first turn around the block, and then Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, who was also previously military tribune in 405, and 4020, okay. I do have some mention that there are some legates or some ambassadors, indeed, but apparently Livy talks about them, so I don't have their names.Dr Rad 9:21Oh well, okay, I have their names so I can go through the little list, and then we'll see how they come up in our story. We've got Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus. Now we think that's his name, who's a patrician, previously military Tribune with consular power in 406, 404 and 401 and then we've got Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, previously military Tribune in 400 BC. We've then got Lucius Valerius Potitus, and he has been military Tribune with consular power in 414 406, 403, 401, and 398,Dr G 10:03somebody's popular at high school. Yeah.Dr Rad 10:05Now that's, that's one set. Oh, yeah,Dr G 10:09there are more sets. Yeah. Well, this isDr Rad 10:11the thing. There's a bit of confusion about, I think, these positions. So we may be dealing instead with Caius Valerius Potitus. Yeah. Consul in 410, military Tribune in 415, and 404 Kaeso Fabius Ambustus, military Tribune with consular power in 410, 404 and 401 or we might be dealing with a Numerius Fabius Ambustus.Dr G 10:43Oh, okay, now that that we've hit the Ambustii, yeah, in this list, I'm like, wait a minute. I had these people listed down for the previous year, but apparently, maybe some of them are ongoing in their ambassadorial Yeah. IDr Rad 10:59think there's a bit of confusion. There's a bit of confusion. There's definitely a bit of confusion happening around these Ambassador legate people. All right,Dr G 11:08okay. They're still there, still hanging around. They areDr Rad 11:11listed in Broughton, and therefore I accept that they were there.Dr G 11:15No fair enough. So when we're talking about legates at this time period, it's basically a delegation. You could be given any kind of task. It's whatever the military tribunes or the Senate decide needs to be done. So it's not like they hold a specific military position. I mean, you do get military legates later, but you could be asked to do any task that's administrative in nature, that is supportive of the Roman state. Yeah. So whatever that is, and I'm probably about to hear about it for the first time,Dr Rad 11:47well, I think, I think the reason why there's a bit of overlap is that we, of course, had some legits legging it to see the Oracle at Delphi in the previous year. I would maybe implying that maybe they're still traveling at this point in time that might have something to do with it.Dr G 12:05Are you telling me it's not that fast to travel all the way to Delphi okay, it'sDr Rad 12:09bit of a journey. It's a bit of a journey. All right. Dr, G, you ready? Therefore to jump into 397, now that we kind of know who we're dealing with,Dr G 12:18I'm excited to find out what happens for sure? Yep.Dr Rad 12:22Okay, so we have a new enemy on the horizon for Rome in this year, the Tarquinenses.Dr G 12:33Oh, dear. Yeah, these the inhabitants of Tarquinii. ThisDr Rad 12:37is to do with the area of Tarquinii, yes. So we're talking about an Etruscan peoples, yes. Now they notice that Rome is dealing with a lot of other enemies at this point in time. So not only do they have the siege at they which is ongoing and they, of course, has by this time, being joined by neighboring peoples, the Falerr and people from Capena. And then we've also got them fighting the Volsci who were contesting occupation of Anxur. We've talked about that a few times. That's been tossed backwards and forwards between the Romans and the Volscians like a hot potato. And then we've also got the Aequians who are engaged in attacking the Roman colony at Labici, oh,Dr G 13:25dear. It sounds like the Romans have got enemies on every single side.Dr Rad 13:29When don't…

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Special Episode – Totally Chaotic History with Dr Emma Southon Dec 12, 2024

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Are you ready to have a Totally Chaotic time?We certainly hope so, as we are thrilled to welcome Dr Emma Southon back on the show for the FOURTH TIME (not the third, as incorrectly said by Dr Rad). Emma has released her first children’s book, which was co-authored with Greg Jenner and illustrated by Rikin Parekh.Special Episode – Totally Chaotic History with Dr Emma Southon The cover of Totally Chaotic History: Roman Britain Gets Rowdy!This powerhouse trio have produced Totally Chaotic History: Roman History Gets Rowdy! Whilst the target audience for this latest instalment in the Totally Chaotic series is 7-12 year olds, we thoroughly enjoyed it. Turns out that we didn’t know as much about Roman Britain as we thought! If you would like to chuckle and LOL your way through the lengthy history of the British and their interactions with the Romans, you need to grab a copy of this book. We were intrigued to find out how Greg, Emma and Rikin managed to pack so much historiography into a children’s history book. It was intriguing to find out about the process that went into building the layers of historical meaning on every page. Are you ready to get rowdy?Things to Listen Out For: Robot hamstersChaos ratingsTips on sight-seeing in BritainEmma’s upcoming projectsAsk Santa for Totally Chaotic History: Roman History Gets Rowdy! Naturally, Mr Claus shops at your local independent bookstore. Want more from Emma Southon? Check out our previous interview about A History of Rome in 21 Women from 2023. Sound CreditsOur music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Automated Transcript Dr Rad 0:15Music. Welcome to the partial historians.Dr G 0:18We explore all the details of ancient Rome,Dr Rad 0:23everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad andDr G 0:33I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 0:44Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad, and I am Dr G and Dr G, we are joined by someone who is now, I think, a triple guest, which I don't think we've ever had before. We are joined by Dr Emma Southon, who is without doubt, our top drag race fan to have on the podcast, but she also happens to be a top notch historian and hilarious, so that's very handy for us. She is the author of a biography of Agrippina the Younger as well as a book called A fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, and, most recently, a history of Rome in 21 women, all of which you need to check out if you have not read them already, Emma is also the co host of the podcast. History is sexy, but we are here today to graduate her on her latest book, which is totally chaotic history Roman Britain gets rowdy, and in this collaboration, Emma gets together with a podcaster and all around famous author Greg Jenner and illustrator Rikin Parekh. So Emma, welcome,Dr Emma Southon 2:06hello. What a joy to be back. Am I really your first third person? That makes me feel special.Dr Rad 2:11I think soDr G 2:14special you've come to the right place. So weDr Rad 2:17are so excited to talk about this book, because it is very different, and we're going to explore some of those differences in a moment for you. But let's start with the general premise of the book. Shall we? The book is about Roman Britain, and we actually learned a lot by reading this, right? Because it is actually a children's book, I should point out to people.Dr Emma Southon 2:37It isn't for, technically, for like seven to 12 year olds, but both Greg and I love history, and so we put in about as much as we learned. Everything that we learned that we found was interesting, we chucked in there, and we're very keen to make it a book that is proper history like So the premise is that Greg is an amateur historian who is telling the reader the story of whatever the period he's covering, so telling the story of Roman Britain. And then that's all in the present tense, and then he has expert interruptions from a professional historian and expert in the field, who, in the past tense, comes in and says, Actually, Greg, we used to think that, but now we think says, and we know this because we found x, y, z, or and this is what the evidence is. And kind of then gives you the historiography of the period as well, and the like, how we know what we know what kind of things historians have had arguments about what has shifted in our understanding of it, how we interpret the sources and just both widening the subjects as it's usually taught to children. So it's not just like decontextualized Roman Britain, which has like no time period, which is what you very often get with kids books. You just get, like, the Romans or and as if there was no change in the entire period. Or like, you know, the Romans are in Britain for 500 years, and there's just pretense that it's all the same and all the whole time, and also showing how we expanding what history is as it's taught to children. So it's not just giving them facts, as though we just we know those facts, but what historians actually do like how we learn, how we change our minds, how we have big history fights all the time, and have arguments about things, and how there isn't, like one right answer in history. Most of the time, there's a lot of wrong answers, but there's very rare there's also a lot of right answers. And so it sounds quite complicated, but because Greg is naturally hilarious, and because there a lot of it is done through illustration and the way that the page is laid out, it means that there can be lots of a lot going on on the page, and you can learn a whole lot from what looks like just a really fun, silly joke.Dr Rad 4:59Like, you're making me feel a lot better about the fact that I learned a lot from readingDr Emma Southon 5:04good that's the aim. Is that? Because, I think that, especially with because I read the first is a series that Greg is doing, and he's doing four initially. The first one was totally chaotic Egypt, and he sent me that, like, before it came out, to say, like, this is what the thing's gonna look like. And I learned so much from that. And like I did, I haven't technically done Egypt since I was an undergraduate, but I still felt like I had, you know, a basic grasp of it, but like, there's a whole debate in there about why Egyptians mummified people and, like, what is the purpose of that? And I was like, Oh my God, I've never even thought about that as an like it's just in a kid's book for eight year olds, and a complete shift in my understanding of why Egyptian culture mummified people. Is it preservation, or is it actually a deliberate transformation? Because if it's preservation, why are you taking the organs out that's not preserving? Is it that's transforming the body.Dr Rad 6:02That's true. That's true. Yeah.Dr Emma Southon 6:04So, so I also learned a lot, and the next one is a stone age, and I'm looking forward to learning stuff about that. Okay,Dr G 6:10I'm ready to dig in. I'm gonna have to acquire the whole series. On the back of this amazingDr Rad 6:16it makes me feel terrified that all these children are gonna grow up to be so incredibly educatedDr Emma Southon 6:21they are. They're going to be smarter than by the time they're 12. They're going to know soDr Rad 6:26exactly they're going to be like, Excuse me, I think you'll find that there's historiographical debate about that exactly, that's what we want, which I find terrific, because I'm a teacher, I'm actually going to encounter this. Thanks.Dr Emma Southon 6:40They'll be the best kids, though. Yeah.Dr G 6:43We want that kind of smarts coming through. That's that's really exciting.Dr Rad 6:47So that's an amazing description of what the book is all about, in sort of general terms. And it sort of made us realize that when we have looked at Roman Britain, it's been very much about Caesar Claudius and Boudicca, the highlights, yeah, as I like to call them, which all happened in a very short period of time. So can you tell us a bit about some of the other chapters and what they specifically focus on?Dr Emma Southon 7:06So we have a chapter first at the beginning, about the late Iron Age and like, what is Britain like before Caesar gets there? Basically, very important, yeah, because I think that everybody thinks that see the Britain like before Caesar got there, is basically what Caesar describes, which is eight men with mustaches and 200 cows and nothing. SoDr Rad 7:30we've got a bit sounds like a party, yeah.Dr Emma Southon 7:32And then it effectively goes through, kind of chronologically, the the history of of the Roman occupation of Britain. And Britain as part of the Empire. So it does Caesar. And then the massive impacts that Caesar brings, because he makes Britain, or at least southern Britain, big chunks of it, become client kingdoms of the Roman Empire. And so there's these relationships with Tiberius and Augustus that are very rarely written about in anywhere, to be honest, but they're all there. And then Claudius, kind of second invasion, his big invasion, and then the resistance period after that. So you've got about 100 years of people like coraticus and the kind of ongoing attempts to remove the Romans. And then we really wanted it to not just focus on London. So we have a section on Wales. We've got sections on what's happening in the north of England, on how these places are kind of slowly absorbed into the empire in different ways, especially Wales, which takes, like, a really concerted effort to get it in. And then we go all the way through talking about both how unique Britain is, in terms of how much of the army is there, how you get these kind of syncretic, syncretistic gods that you find in Britain? So we've got a god swap game where you get to match your gods to your local Yeah, all of them just match with Mars, because apparently the British just really took to Mars and were like, we hear you said he's a god of war, but we've decided he's the God of Everything. So and fashion. What do we you know? What are people wearing? What are people doing? Building fancy villas, building a town? Because what Rome really brings is urbanization, and then so you get towns for the first time and cities, but also you get these huge Villa estates that are like areas of agricultural production for export, which never existed before, and they're really unique, like the way they're built. And when everybody draws a Roman villa, they draw that kind of bracket shaped, you know, classic Italian Palace, but the ones in Britain are like corridors, and they're kind of weird. So we've got lots of archeology and mosaics and how you build your villa. So we have a, we originally wrote a Grand Designs thing for that. So it was going to be like, someone's coming to video. But they were like, I.Dr Rad 10:00Only 40 year olds will get eight year old is watching,Dr Emma Southon 10:09like he was really funny for us. And then we were like, no, no. Eight year old knows. So we did it as a catalog instead, like they'll get that. And then we did, like, the building your villa, you're building your town as a kind of Minecraft thing. So you get to did it as constructor the game, and then talked through all of the actually big history that happens in in Britain at the end of the Roman Empire. So from like 200 to 400 there are like three emperors that are proclaimed in Britain, including Caracalla and Geta of Gladiator II fame,Dr Rad 10:42absolutely, I was very, so excited to see the section on them. ThereDr G 10:46they are hanging out. I willDr Emma Southon 10:49tell you now, and I'm sorry they're going to probably have to edit this out. But I spent the entire thing going, why is Geta the big one?Dr G 10:58Yeah. Surely this really assumed, yeah, miscasting,Dr Emma Southon 11:03yeah, like, Geta is the big one and the little one is Caracalla.Dr G 11:08Don't tell Fiona too much. She hasn't seen it yet.Dr Rad 11:11Oh, you've seen it. Okay, we're actually going together to what we call Gold Class here, which basically is, like the super fancy cinema with, like this, you know, the recliner IDr G 11:21want? I want to Colosseum popcorn bucket. That's what I'm after. Yeah,Dr Emma Southon 11:26I cannot get it here, and it breaks my heart. I'm not going to spoil anything else, but I'm just going to say Gator is the big one, and I genuinely spent a third of a movie withDr Rad 11:34my mind blown. Yeah, no, that is crazy to me. Yeah.Dr Emma Southon 11:38So Caracalla,, Geta, Constantine the great he is crowned in Britain. And then Britain is called like a hotbed of usurpers, because people keep rising up, taking chunks of the army and invading mainland Britain, basically. And then there's a lot that goes on there. Britain, I think, is very often considered to be like a massive backwater that Rome didn't care about at all. But you see hundreds of years of them desperately trying to keep Britain in the empire, because it is very important as both a space for which is agriculturally, producing enormously, and it is a place where people have loads of property and they want to keep it. And it is, you know, they don't want to lose it as a space. And the period that Britain is the richest and when the most beautiful things are being built, and when it's spending the most money on villas and mosaics and paintings, and is the third and fourth century, like this period that we think of as a period of decline and misery is actually a period of kind of gold and luxury in Roman Britain. So, so we have all of that, and then we have the kind of final sad decline, I suppose, of Britain as the army just keeps leaving, and then no one has any money to travel across the sea anymore. SoDr G 12:56this ferry system is getting very expensive. I don't know if I can put my army on boats,Dr Emma Southon 13:02and their Saxons got very, very good at piracy, so it became real expensive to keep sending stuff over. And so this kind of last hurrah of Roman Britain is kind of ends with a bit of a whimper. And that famous letter from Honorius where he says, you know, we wrote to Britain and said that they'd have to deal with themselves, which may or may not be about Britain, but yeah, so it hopefully gives, like, a very different perspective on Roman Britain, and then that, it does the whole of it, from the first contact in 150 BCE all the way through to, kind of The final dregs of Roman culture in like 500 and tells you everything that happened, basically, and get a good idea of what living at any period under Roman occupation was like,Dr G 13:53Oh, fantastic. So I like the fact that there's a chronology here. It's, as you say, it's not just a smattering of facts without any sort of contextual detail. So everybody gets to go on a journey through this whole few 100 years of Roman contact with the Britons. When you're thinking about your research and work on this book, was there anything in particular you were surprised to learn as you went through this process,Dr Emma Southon 14:20the kind of uniqueness of Romano British culture, like archeologically, because the archeology of Roman Britain is not something that I had ever like looked at in huge detail, and I'd certainly never sat down and read all of the many British archeological reports I read. And because British archeological reports basically publis…

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Kidnapped! Nov 28, 2024

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In 398 BCE, the Romans were still enmeshed in their siege at Veii. Whilst the Romans waited, worrying portents started to appear. What did they all mean?Episode 156 – Kidnapped!The most concerning portent was a sudden increase in the levels of the lake in the Alban Woods. It was positively spooky. An embassy was despatched to visit the Delphic Oracle so that the mystery could be unravelled.Lake Albano, courtesy of Istituto Nazionale di Geofisica e Vulconologia.Whilst the ambassadors were on the road, some casual conversation between enemies led to a revelation. An old man from Veii seemed to have the answers the Romans needed, and unfortunately this led to him being kidnapped and interrogated. How else could the Romans get the information? They want the truth!The old man and the Oracle both indicated that the Romans needed to figure out a way to draw off the water from the lake. Then, and only then, Veii would fall, and the Romans would be victorious.Sounds simple! Just make the water go away, Rome.Things to listen out for: LOTS of patricians in powerDangerous shortages of Etruscan soothsayersSneaky Roman youthsRoad trips!An owl suddenly covering for Igor Our Players for 398 BCEMilitary Tribunes with Consular PowerL. Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401M. Valerius M. f. M. n. Lactucinus Maximus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 395M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 401, 394, 386, 384, 381L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409. Mil. Tr. c.p. 407, 405, 397, 295, 394. 391Q. Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat) Mil. Tr. 402, 395, 390, 388, 386Q. Sulpicius Ser. f. Se. n. Camerinus Cornutus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 402Legates, Ambassadors(Cn. Cornelius) Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 406, 404, 401(P.) Licinius (Calvus Esquilinus) Mil. Tr. c.p. 400, 396(L.) Valerius Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401, 398OR(C.) Valerius Potitus (Volusus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c.p. 415, 404(K.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 410, 404, 401, 395, 309?OR(Num.) Fabius Ambustus (Pat)Our SourcesDr Rad reads Livy, 5.14-15.Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus 12.10-33; Cicero, On Divination, 1.44; Diodorus Siculus, 14.82; Plutarch, Life of Camillus 2.3-4.4.Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.Young, J. 1875. ‘The Alban Lake’ The Athenaeum no. 2505, pp 575-576.Sound CreditsOur music is composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Automated TranscriptDr Rad 0:15Music. Welcome to the partial historians.Dr G 0:18We explore all the details of ancient Rome,Dr Rad 0:23everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr Rad.Dr G 0:33And I'm Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.Dr Rad 0:44Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.Dr G 0:55Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians I am Dr G, and I am Dr rad, and we are tracing Rome's history from the foundation of the city. And in this episode, we're going to be looking at 398 BCE, so we're right in the early period of the fourth centuryDr Rad 1:18that we are Dr G. But before we dive into 398 Can we get a quick recap on what happened in 399Dr G 1:24It was either a hot summer, a severe snowstorm, or both. Well, IDr Rad 1:29think the snowstorm actually happened in 400Dr G 1:32Well, so you say.Dr Rad 1:34So I say indeed, although Wait, how do Italian winters work? Wait, when is a winter? Oh, actually, that would make sense. It would span two years. Sorry, being in the southern hemisphere, it took me a moment to figureDr G 1:46that out, yes. And the thing is that the source material doesn't kind of line up in any other way. So, like that fragment can't come in earlier than what it already did, or at least not as far as I can tell. So I think there are ways in which Livy and Dionysius might be a little bit out of sync with each other, and that's fine, because there is that sort of prerogative around the 10 year siege. So we're in this period of time where we know that Rome is and the writers of Rome are making up some of the time because they want this siege of a to take 10 years, just like the Trojan Well, yeah, they want to have this beautiful mirror to the Trojan War. So things are a little bit haphazard. Things are a little bit out of sync. And even when we look at our comparative source material from somebody like Diodorus Siculus, they're out by a couple of years every time,Dr Rad 2:38exactly. And so, as a result of all this terrible weather, the Romans had to throw a gigantic party for themselves and for the gods. Most importantly, and the patricians decided to blame it all on the fact that there were so many plebeians elected to serve as magistracies.Dr G 2:55I mean, where else would terrible weather come from? Naturally? So, yeah. So this means that we head into 398 with the pretty traditional patrician chip on the shoulder about plebeians and what's going on there. And I guess we're gonna see how that plays out for them. Exactly.Dr Rad 3:16All right. Dr, G, let's do it 398 BC, youDr G 3:37so this year we have military tributes with consular power. It has been foreshadowed, and now we're here.Dr Rad 3:44And the names, Dr, G, such sweet music to my ears, because they're so familiar.Dr G 3:50Oh well, some of them, at the very least, exactly, Lucius, Valerius, Potitus, yeah, yeah, you've heard of him before. It sounds familiar. Is familiar previously, Military Tribune in 414, 406, 403 and 401Dr Rad 4:04It's nice to have an experienced hand back at the wheel, allDr G 4:08hands on deck, especially potituses. We also have Marcus Valerius Lactucinus, Maximus. LactucinusDr Rad 4:19of all sounds like a disease that you get when there's too much pollen around. Well,Dr G 4:23interestingly, IDr Rad 4:24did look this up because, yay. Wait, did have to do with milk? Oh, no,Dr G 4:29it has to do with lettuce, as in salad leaves.Dr Rad 4:34So the most insane thing I've ever heard. Well, I don'tDr G 4:38know. Is it any worse than Cicero, the chickpea. So the early Republican period, this name Lactocinus, or Lactucinus, if we go with a really hard seat, is related to, etymologically, the word for lettuce.Dr Rad 4:55He should marry his daughter to someone in the Cicero family so that they can have a salad. They could make salad together. Oh, yeah.Dr G 5:02So yeah, this seems to be one of the things. They're not that common. A few of them crop up in this century, and we're going to see one later on as well. But yeah, pretty rare. This guy is a new kid to the block. Never been a military Tribune before, so he must be pretty excited. ThisDr Rad 5:20also doesn't really add up with what they said in the previous year, which is that they were putting their very best candidates out. I mean, how can this guy be the best candidate who's never held the office before? I don'tDr G 5:30think you understand how best works from a patrician perspective.Dr Rad 5:34I know I'm just putting it out. I'm switching perspectives from all over the place. Sometimes I'm plebeian and sometimes I'm patrician. Just when you think I'm gonna Zig. I zag.Dr G 5:42think he was born that way, and that's what makes him great. Yeah, we also have Marcus Furius Camillus.Dr Rad 5:50Come on, the Furii.Dr G 5:54of the story. He emerges. He's here previously, military Tribune in 401, so quite recently, yeah, Andy's Beau and Lucius furious. MedullinusDr Rad 6:06definitely recognize this name, yeah. SoDr G 6:09a couple of Furii's in this gang. Well, of course. IDr Rad 6:12mean, if you're putting forward your best, you're putting forward the Furii, obviously, of course. I mean, I'm disappointed that none of them are Spurius Furius, but still,Dr G 6:19that's true, although Camillus is the grandson of a Spurius Furius, that's as good as it gets. So Lucius Furius Medullinus was previously consul in 413, and 409 so way more illustrious than the military Tribune with consular power.Dr Rad 6:38Seems so long ago that we talked about consul.Dr G 6:40Yeah, it's been a hot minute,and he was also a military Tribune with consular power in 407 and 405 so definitely experienced. Well, experienced. Yeah. Next we have Quintus, Servilius Fidenas, ah, yes, previously, military tribune in 402 and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Cornutus, also military Tribune with consular power in 402Dr Rad 7:10the old gang is back together. Yeah,Dr G 7:13the boys are back now. I also have the names of some ambassadors or legates, or legates, people who hold some minor but significant positions enough that it gets named in the year. We know who they are, apparently, almost somewhat kind of,Dr Rad 7:35weDr G 7:36have parts of their names. I have a lot of oars in this list. Yes, me too. Yeah. So we've got Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus. Now, this guy, fabulous patrician background, previously military Tribune in 406, 404 and 401 wow. Yeah, he's getting around. But now he's been, he's been given some sort of task this year, we'll find out what it is.Maybe the taskmaster shall tell you, Ambassador,Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus. Question mark, not a patrician.Dr Rad 8:10No, he's a guy. He's the first one, you know, theDr G 8:14only one, according to Livy, apparently, in 400Dr Rad 8:16exactly the inoffensive one. Oh, the palatable How could you forget someone as beige as him, the palatable plebeian? Exactly,Dr G 8:27he opened the door for the radicals of the following year, whoDr Rad 8:31did nothing and yet still got blamed for everything.Dr G 8:34I thought their military victories were quite significant, really. No, I know, but that's what I mean.Dr Rad 8:37Like, they did nothing wrong, but they still got blamed for everything. Disaster.Dr G 8:42Yeah. So they are joined by these two guys. Are joined by a Lucius, Valerius Potitus, same guy as above. Apparently, you could be a military Tribune with Constable of power and be an ambassador, slash leggett, with your patrician. You can be anything. I mean, we could hire somebody else for the job, but I've just decided to hire myself.Dr Rad 9:01I just so qualified.Dr G 9:03I've looked at the candidates, and I've decided I should be the boss. IDr Rad 9:06am clearly the man for the job, indeed. And that job, and that job, in fact,Dr G 9:11all the jobs, exactly. And that's how we get kings. Everybody. Be careful. Now we're not entirely certain that this is set in stone. This is one of the ‘ors'. So it's either this Valerius Potitus, already in a role, or Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusu, who must be related. There's a lot of similar names here, so Gaius Valerius Potitus, maybe instead of Lucius Valerius potitus, we'll see now Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus was previously consul in 410 as I'm sure you recall, oh, naturally I never forget. And previously military Tribune with consular power in 415 and 404, some families are really dominating the upper echelons of power. Here they really are. Now we also. Have another or situation. So it could be the case that we have Kaeso,Fabius Ambustus as our last ambassador, legate, or Numerus Fabius Ambustus.Dr Rad 10:12the first one sounds for more familiar to me.Dr G 10:15The first one is more familiar because they've definitely had more roles previously, military Tribune in 410 404 and 401 whereas numerous has only been a military Tribune with consular power once in 406 but it's anybody's guess, some of the names are missing. And when we are missing the prey gnome and the first name, and we've only got the gens, and then the branch of the gens, it really does put us at a bit of a loss as to who we're talking about.Dr Rad 10:48We're like Roman names. They'reDr G 10:50from a family, yeah.Dr Rad 10:52All right. Dr, G, are you ready for some drama? I am ready. Okay, so as we've noted, it's an oil patrician lineup. And Livy s obviously very into this, because he does actually detail exactly how many times these guys have held the position before, etc, etc. So he wants you to know these guys are elite now. They do not do anything particularly significant at they itself. The siege continues. Well, there's a surprise, yeah, there's just some minor pillaging that goes on, you know, just to keep them on their toes. However, it's time to take out the legs from this campaign. And by that, I mean, you've got to get rid of those pesky allies that keep trying to pin Rome between they and themselves, it's time to take out the Falerii once and for all, exactly, and also, the Capenates hate those guys absolutely. So Potitus is the one who is picked to go against the Falerii the people of Falerii and Camillus is sent against the Capenates. Now I said that dramatically, because Camillus is a figure of note in Roman history. He is now against these enemies. They were able to capture lots and lots of booty, and then they destroyed anything that they didn't take.Dr G 12:20Oh, okay, wow. Okay, yep.Dr Rad 12:23Annoyingly, this also was a year where there were lots of portents that were being reported. Dr, G, ah, yes. Now, at first, when they started being reported, it was just one person who saw something weird, and people were like, Hmm, maybe Bob's gone crazy.Dr G 12:41What are you been drinking? Bob, yeah,Dr Rad 12:43I don't think I believe you, but as time went on and more and more were being reported, it started to become concerning, especially because this war with they meant Rome was plung out of Etruscan soothsayers.Dr G 13:00Oh, no. I hate it when that happens. But thenDr Rad 13:04there was a portent that lots of people saw, and it got everyone really freaked out. Are you ready to hear? What kind of twisted thing would make them think that the world was about to end? IDr G 13:16am interested to hear, particularly since I have some source material this year, so I'm wondering the extent to which our sources are going to agree or disagree on the fantastic things you're about to tell me, look,Dr Rad 13:27it's a pretty big deal, so I think they are going to line up, but nonetheless, strap yourself in, just in case. Don't you falling off that chair the lake in the Alban woods, even though there had been no rain or any other sort of water source, suddenly got higher. Yep, there was more water in it, and nobody knew how.Dr G 13:50Oh, that's weird.Dr Rad 13:53It was really, I know they were like, where's the magician? How did they do that? They can't explain it. And so they decide to send off representatives to the Delphic Oracle. That is a long way from home, it is, and this is where all our legates and ambassadors come in, yeah, how…

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