This chapter is a bit of a contrast to our first one on Spartacus. We turn from a rebel from the lowest ranks of society to one from the elite. We are journeying from the Roman Republic to the mid-Empire. Aaaaand we are travelling from Italy to the provinces.
For our next instalment, we tell you the tale of Queen Zenobia of Palmyra. Cleopatra reborn!
We hope that you enjoy it and would love to hear your thoughts.
If you haven’t pre-ordered a copy yet and you like the sound of it, the details for the book can be found on our website.
Music by Bettina Joy de Guzman.
The Fifth Century BCE in Review
Oct 03, 2024
The fifth century BCE in Rome is the century that saw the idea of the republic flourish and falter only to flourish again. The plebeians rose up to fight for their rights and to enjoy the fruits of their hard work on the battlefield. The patricians held on to their prestige and power with a vice-like grip and Rome began to expand their influence in the local region. At least that’s what our ancient sources believed!
Let’s review the 5th century BCE together. We’ll focus on the big themes, the ideas that were central to the century, and what was going on in the Struggle of the Orders.
Episode 154 – The Fifth Century BCE in Review
It seems only fair to start with the year 509 BCE (so technically the end of the 6th century!) because that’s the year that the Romans finally booted out the kings and decided there had to be a better way to run the place. If you’re keen to go through the 5th century in ALL THE DETAIL, you’ll need to go back to our Episode 45 – The Last Gasp of the Regal Period that we recorded all the way back in 2015! Our detailed coverage of the 5th century BCE runs from Episode 45 all the way through to Episode 153 – The Plebeians Push Into Power. That’s 108 episodes on the 5th century BCE!
Touchstones of the 5th century BCE
We’ll be taking a bird’s eye look at the century that was with a focus on some key themes and developments. Tune in for a consideration of:
The Introduction of the Dictator
The Struggle of the Orders
The First and Second Plebeian Secession
The Introduction of the Tribune of the Plebs
Trouble with the Etruscans and the Volscians and the Aequians and…!
The Decemvirate and the Twelve Tables
The Dream of Agrarian Reform
The Military Tribune with Consular Power
Where to from here?
So after a turbulent first 100 years of the Roman Republic, what can we say for sure?
There’s tensions between the haves and the have nots.
The primary political power of Rome seems to be drawn from the gens, the extended family structure. This led to war bands like the Fabians taking it upon themselves to execute a war against their neighbours that they ultimately lost.
Rome doesn’t have anything like a formal army. If you wanted to go to war you needed to convince people to sign up. They might be willing to do that in order to protect their own lands and gens, but they might not want to if it interfered with their own prerogatives. There is some suggestion that, at times, the issue of war service was forced through internal violence.
A troubled time in the field or illness sweeping through the land could have devastating consequences. Plagues were a disaster – death and loss of life from illness could also have consequences for the next farming season. There’s plenty of tales from the 5th century that draw attention to the way that significant military losses or death from contagions resulted in famines the next year. Life was hard and there were no quick fixes.
Rome isn’t a leader in the region – far from it. They seem to have had a great proclivity for pissing off most of their neighbours without always being able to back up their ambitions with talent. The Latins and Hernicians were their major allies in the 5th century but they were not looked upon fondly by many: the Etruscans, the Volscians, the Aequians, the Faliscans, the Sabines etc.
The archaeological record across Italy in the 5th century suggests that the Romans were not the only people struggling. The Etruscan influence in Campania declined over the 5th century even while their power expanded in the northern region of the Po River. There seems to have been less foreign trade and more economic struggle. The Romans and their neighbours were fighting wars over scraps.
What will the 4th century BCE bring for the development of Rome? Stay tuned to find out!
Sound Credits
Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds.
Léon Bénouville (1844) Cincinnatus. The senators happen upon Cincinnatus while is he is busy farming sans shirt.
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.
Dr G 0:33 And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:55 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians I am, Dr G, and I’m joined by my long-going and fabulous co host:
Dr Rad 1:07 Dr Rad. How you doing, Dr G?
Dr G 1:10 I’m doing fabulously well. It’s always a good day when I get to sit down with you.
Dr Rad 1:14 I know, now look, you and I, we usually sit here and we hash out the narrative that is the history of Rome from the founding of the city. We look at different sources, we compare accounts. And to be honest, I think one thing that we are not particularly good on is like anniversaries and special episodes that sort of thing. We never really pay attention to how many episodes we pump out. And we don’t really do episodes to celebrate how many years we’ve been doing this, but we felt that we had to pause and celebrate today. Slow going as our narrative is,
Dr G 1:51 I think you mean thorough and detailed as our narrative is.
Dr Rad 1:54 It is, it is. Thorough and detailed. So today is a special episode, because the last time we spoke, we hit a century.
Dr G 2:05 Yeah, we’re about to tip into a whole new world in terms of the numbers. Whether that means anything for the Romans is anybody’s guess, but it certainly means something for us. So we’re about to switch away from the fifth century BCE, and we thought to ourselves, let’s just take a moment take stock of the situation. How far has Rome come in its first century as a republic?
Dr Rad 2:36 Exactly. So today is the most gigantic partial recap. If that even makes sense that we’ve ever done.
Dr G 2:44 I’m not even willing to call it a recap. It’s going to be bigger than that.
Dr Rad 2:49 Yeah, yeah, as we look at the fifth century.
Dr G 2:54 Yeah, so we started talking about the Roman Republic, which officially started in 509, ish, so just at the very end of the sixth century, and that was in Episode 45 which was called ‘The Last Gasp of the Regal Period’. And it was so long ago that it was in 2015.
Dr Rad 3:17 Jesus Christ.
Dr G 3:22 Are we going as slow as the Romans?
Dr Rad 3:25 We’re living it in real time, history unfolding before your very eyes.
Dr G 3:30 A little bit of history repeating…
Dr Rad 3:32 Exactly.
Dr G 3:33 And it has taken us 108 episodes to get from that point in time to the end of the fifth century BCE, which legitimately means that we’ve got an episode for just about every year that the Republic has been in existence so far.
Dr Rad 3:53 I was going to say that sounds astronomical, but when you think about it, should we be surprised? I mean, we do basically cover a year an episode. That’s kind of our thing.
Dr G 4:02 Well, that’s true and but sometimes we cover two years because there’s not much going on, and then sometimes so much is going on that we need to devote more than one episode to a single year. So this is, I think it’s a nice sort of like marry up a parallel at this point, to be in a situation where we’ve got as many episodes as they’ve been years basically, yeah, I think the fifth century BCE, the evidence has been pretty thin on the ground, really.
Dr Rad 4:35 And yet, somehow we fleshed it out into almost 10 years worth of podcasting.
Dr G 4:39 Incredible, incredible stuff. I think, yeah, it’s a high five for us. I’ll put in a sound effect there.
Dr Rad 4:45 Oh, definitely, yeah. So look, I have to say this as well. I think is something we needed to do because of the very nature of podcasting, particularly the way that you and I do it, whereas you say we do delve into the details, because when you’re doing a podcasting. Show the big difference between doing this and, say, writing a book on the fifth century BCE is that if you were writing a book, you would obviously sit down, you would research the whole period at once. It might take you a few years to actually come to grips with all the material, do all your research, pull it together into the structure that you want, and then you write it, and then it’s reviewed, etc, etc, right? Whereas with podcasting, it is quite different, because we are, we are looking very much at it unfolding in sort of real time, in that we’re not reading ahead that far, if, if at all. Sometimes we are just looking at the year that that was, and we are, we are definitely doing our research into interesting things that pop up as we look at the accounts, but we’re certainly not looking ahead. I think that’s kind of actually the nice part of it. We’re kind of as surprised as the Romans in that we’re like, oh, wow, that happened. Wasn’t expecting that. So that’s why, I think looking back now and trying to take it all in what we’ve covered over the last almost 10 years is kind of important, because now we can kind of look back and say, right, well, now we know everything that happened. What do we think of this century?
Dr G 6:10 Yeah, now that we’ve we’ve done every year conceivable that we could across this whole period of time, what can we take away from it? So this episode is more going to be like a discussion of some of the really big themes and events that occurred throughout this century, and just a sense of like, where we think things are at with Rome now that we’ve gotten to the end of this period and we’re about to tip into a whole new century. So if people come to this podcast in many years hence, and they’re like, I don’t know where to start with the fifth century. Come to this episode first before you go right back and listen to all of the others.
Dr Rad 6:50 You can, rebel, you. Rebel listeners, you can listen out of order. My God.
Dr G 6:56 The horror.
Dr Rad 6:57 The horror. I have to say, I actually enjoyed this century a lot more than I thought I would. And that’s another reason why I think it’s actually important to talk about it, because it it is a bit of a forgotten century. I feel, you know, people talk about skipped over, yes, yeah. People talk about that very, very early stuff where the Republic is founded, which is obviously so key, because people care so much about the Roman Republic, people like to talk about it a lot, but then I feel like people just zoom straight ahead to like the Punic Wars, or maybe the Samnite wars, or even, dare I say it, the fall of Veii. Spoilers!
Dr G 7:37 Which still has not happened yet for us.
Dr Rad 7:39 I know, I know, but they don’t pay attention to the stuff that happens. And actually, I’m like, wow, this actually tells us so much about the way, the way that the Romans wrote their history, the way that they conceptualize themselves. I actually see this as being kind of foundational. Now I’m so glad that we did actually go through year by year.
Dr G 7:58 Yeah, and I think there is a real pleasure in the slow reading of material that we’ve engaged in as well. So this is something that as a working historian, you sometimes don’t get the luxury of doing just sitting with a text for a really long period of time and going through it really slowly. You want to be able to do that, but often what you’re called to do in the profession is to dig into things quite quickly, come to grips with stuff really fast, and then find the key pieces that will really help you say the things that you’re hoping to bring together to search for the hypothesis. And that really slow, close reading, and close rereading, is kind of fundamental to the pleasure of doing history, but it is also something that sometimes you don’t get to do quite as much as you’d like to, like you might be prepping to teach, or you might be trying to finish off an article, and all those sorts of things are pressured deadlines, which means that slow reading engagement is something that you might have to build into your spare time, and we’ve been really fortunate to be able to do that within the context of producing a podcast together.
Dr Rad 9:09 Completely agree, I tend to dip in an out of source material, if I’m writing an article or writing a book, and just finding the stuff that I absolutely have to read because there is a deadline looming, and I need to get through things as quickly as possible. So yeah, I think this is something that is unusual, and yet should be such a key part of what it is that historians do. Yeah, slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. All right. Dr, G, so you have very kindly put together a highlights reel for us here, which we’re going to explore. So why don’t you tell me what stood out to you, looking back on the fifth century BC as a defining theme.
Dr G 9:48 I think one of the first things that I think is worthy of mention is that we have the introduction of the role of dictator. So this is something that fundamentally you can. Not have under a monarchy, it doesn’t really work like that. The king’s in charge. The king does all the things. They’re both the spiritual leader and the military leader and the judicial person. Those functions really get split up and broken away and sort of hived off in different directions. As we head into the republic, people see the monarch as somebody who has way too much of various powers, and that needs to be dealt with. Having said that, though the early republic of Rome is a messy place, and they’re trying to do something new with their government, and they’re not really sure quite if it’s working or not, and sometimes they do get themselves into a bit of a spot of bother. Sometimes that relates to their relationship with the gods, sometimes that relates to the military, sometimes that relates to judicial matters. And in times of real need, all of a sudden they’re like, well, might be good to have one person really in charge and just in charge for a small amount of time. And this is where the idea of the dictator sort of comes into play. They’ve got various roles that they can fulfill, but the idea is that they definitely have to step down. It is a temporary position, and they must step down once they’ve fulfilled their mandate. So I think this is fundamental to the nature of the fifth century BCE, because Rome sort of harks back to the kings without necessarily returning to the kings at times.
Dr Rad 11:33 Absolutely, I agree. I think that if you were to open a popular history of Rome. And there was anything on this period which a would shock me, but let’s pretend that this is happening. It would very much tell you that in 509 BCE, the last king of Rome was expelled. The Romans vowed never to have kings again, and they introduced this new system, which was structured like this. One thing that you and I have really seen, whilst going into the details of this, is how much of a lie that is.
Dr G 12:07 Can you imagine having a whole group of people just being like, we’re not doing it that way anymore, and then having completely smooth transition into a unknown, completely new, shiny system that they’ve made up on the spot, basically, and it not having any issues whatsoever. It’s just unrealistic.
Dr Rad 12:28 Exactly. I mean, to be honest, I don’t know why that actually even surprises us. Anybody who’s been through a restructure of any company or institution that you work at. We all know it takes years, years to figure that kind of stuff out. It takes all sorts of HR management. It takes people having tantrums. It takes clashes, it takes complaints. It is a complicated process, and that is in the modern age. I don’t know why we’d think that the ancient world would be so much more seamless.
Dr G 13:00 It’s certainly not seamless, and it doesn’t take them very long to sort of hit a snag in this new republic of theirs.
Dr Rad 13:08 No, no, it doesn’t at all.
Dr G 13:09 The first traditional dictator is a guy called Titus Larcius Flavus, and he’s brought in in 498, BCE, so the Republic isn’t even a decade old, no, so it’s an issue. They’re like, uh oh, we need somebody, and his job, basically, is to deal with the lingering supporters for the last king, Tarquinius Superbus, that man who doesn’t want to die, doesn’t want to go away, would still like to be king, really? Oh, yeah, and he does have factional support, so it’s a bit like, look, any politician that you really don’t like that just keeps returning and keeps trying to get themselves back into power. Tarquinius Superbus is your man.
I’m sure I don’t know what you mean. Dr, G.
I’m not name dropping. I’m not going to date this podcast.
Dr Rad 14:05 Yeah, it’s 2024, where would we be seeing that kind of thing happening?
Dr G 14:10 No idea. So they call up this Titus Larcius Flavus to deal with this situation. And in addition to that, there seems to be some broad issues with the Sabines, which are Rome’s neighbors to the east, up in the hills. So there’s unrest politically. You know, we’ve got some monarchical elements still at play. We’ve got the neighbors of Rome causing a bit of an issue. And so he gets out his lictors. He gets to have a lot of lictors. They get to have their fasces with the axes, which makes everybody a little bit perturbed. And Bob’s your uncle. We’ve got our first dictator.
Dr Rad 14:53 I know. And I kind of love the idea that, however, this system came together, the Romans eventually, basically. Had a built in band aid for their world, literally, a band aid solution.
Dr G 15:08 Having a terrible time? Not sure what to do now? Quick, appoint somebody dictator! So there had to be an agreement about who the dictator would be. That was pretty important. And there is an outlying, even earlier contender to be the first dictator. Scholars tend to not be sure about this one, though, so he doesn’t usually get the name this guy, Manlius Valerius Volsesi, was apparently a player in 501 BCE, but the sauces are pretty thin on the ground, so that one’s usually dismissed. But then we have, like, some really stand out figures and the most famous dictator, and shout out to our fans in Cincinnati. This guy takes the cake in the fifth century, we have Cincinnatus as dictator, and he holds the role twice, which is phenomenal stuff.
Dr Rad 16:09 Yeah, and that’s on top of his other positions that he holds, not to mention his family’s general domination of politics in the latter half of the fifth century BCE.
Dr G 16:21 Yeah, they’re a pretty phenomenal family, and he does not want to be dictator, for sure, he’s busy, if I recall rightly, farming without his shirt on. When they come and find him.
Dr Rad 16:33 Who could forget that scene?
Dr G 16:36 I’d never forget a scene like that. And he was so good at the job and resolving the crisis at that point in time that about 30 years later, or maybe 20 years later, they called him up to be dictator again, by which time, he was a crotchety old man and even more grumpy than he was the first time. And he’s like, are you sure you don’t want to pick a younger man for this? He must have been in his 70s or 80s by that time, and he very reluctantly became dictator again.
Dr Rad 17:09 But this is, I love Cincinnatus as something to talk about, because, as we’ve said before, but bears repeating now, because the fifth century BC is a little murky with source material. I think it’s very much still one of those periods that the sources that we’re mostly consulting, that were written later are looking back to for exemplars, and Cincinnatus, I’m sure probably did historically exist, that’s not to say that he is a myth. However, I do think that his life the way that he conducts himself, it does become an exemplar that later Romans will reach back to as their perfect man, someone who’s rural, rustic, embraces those traditional values of hard work and discipline and does not want to hold on to power. Because, as we’ve said many a time, this is the ultimate man. The dream man for the Romans is someone who is really good at exercising power but doesn’t actually want it.
Dr G 18:11 Oh yeah, you can, you can almost feel Cato the Elder loving this guy from a couple of centuries hence. That sense of being tied to the land is a very fundamental concept of the early, mid and even late republic, the idea that a true Roman is centered in the farm, somehow, in that rustic landscape, not in the urban environment where the politics is happening and yeah, Cincinnatus is ticking all of those reluctant leader boxes.
Dr Rad 18:46 Absolutely. Um, do you mind if I get political for a moment? So I know that, I know this is going to put a timestamp on this episode, which is not ideal, but I can never resist it whilst, whilst, obviously, it’s not exactly the same. I do think that there is also still something about maybe certain people these days where we are a little suspicious of anyone who’s too keen to hold power, even in our own time. And whilst I certainly would not say that I approve or agree with everything Joe Biden did as President of the United States of America, there is something to be said for somebody who, okay, admittedly, after a lot of pressure, did at least step down when it was clear that him being in that position was no good for anyone anymore. It is not a perfect scenario in that there certainly had to be a gigantic amount of pressure put on him before he took that step. So I’m certainly not holding him up as a paragon of virtue in that respect, but there is something to be said for somebody who does at least eventually read the room and realize that it’s time to go.
Dr G 19:58 Wow.
Dr Rad 19:59 Yeah, which is not something that can be said for everyone.
Dr G 20:04 That is true, and we’ll get to a couple of examples of people who do not know how to read the room in the fifth century BCE in this episode, for sure.
Dr Rad 20:14 Anyway, all right, so the next thing is something that we have spent many hours of our lives talking about. So how could anyone forget? Not going to surprise our listeners here, but the Struggle of the Orders, Dr G.
Dr G 20:26 And boy, is it a struggle. It just keeps on happening.
Dr Rad 20:30 It definitely does. So certainly, the fifth century BCE is the time where we see the kickoff, something that will actually last for a couple of 100 of years, which is the patricians and the pabeans, these apparent classes that exist in ancient Rome and are consistently at loggerheads with each other. And it flares up and it dies down periodically. It depends what’s happening, but it’s always there lurking around the corner. I don’t think we could probably go more than – ooh, I’m gonna say one or two years, really – without some mention of something happening between the patricians and the plebeians.
Dr G 21:11 Yes. And I think the major issue that we’ve returned to many times and bears repeating is that the historicity of this conflict is really open to question. Who are the patricians? Who are the plebeians? It’s not at all clear we don’t have enough good, solid, independent evidence outside of our written source material that was produced much later to give us some insight into what is going on here. So it does make it really hard to know whether we’re on firm ground with this. The idea that there would be social and political tensions in any state, particularly as it’s starting to grow and expand, and particularly since they’ve just changed their system of government seems a reasonable assumption, and what shape that really took is kind of anybody’s guess at that point. But this Struggle of the Orders, is it flares up in a number of ways across this century, and we’ll get into more detail on that. It’s a big deal, and it seems to be positioned very much in our source material as the elite faction within the social structure of Rome is very much trying to push its own agenda. And obviously they have the power and the platform to do that, and this leaves the people who are locked outside of that pretty frustrated a lot of the time.
Dr Rad 22:43 Yeah, I think that’s exactly it. I think that’s why it’s been so appealing, actually, to look at it, particularly with the world scenarios that we face these days, the idea of powerful people managing to establish such a domination on the institutions that control everyone’s lives and the frustration that comes with that, I think we can very much sympathize with that. I think that’s been very clear in the way that we’ve talked about it.
Dr G 23:14 Yes, yes,
Dr Rad 23:16 Yeah, it’s not that we don’t know how things work, which sometimes seems to be the case in the conflict of the orders, like it sometimes seems like there is some sort of knowledge or oral tradition or training or something that is at stake here, where only certain people maybe are familiarized with that or know it really well, and that that may be part of the frustration. But even once that issue is somewhat resolved, it definitely is this frustration of like a lack of representation, a lack of access to certain parts of the state. So whilst we might not necessarily feel confident in who the patricians are, who the plebeians are, we certainly wouldn’t want to suggest that there isn’t some sort of power struggle happening in ancient Rome in the fifth century BCE. It might just be that the way that our later sources choose to explain it, it maybe reflects a little bit more of events closer to their own time than what was actually happening. And that’s why it seems a bit dubious. But certainly they’re probably very aware that there was some sort of power struggle going on within Rome, within certain factions. We just can’t be certain who made up those factions, and sometimes it feels like that story is being projected onto maybe a fairly bare bones account. And so they’re like, I can’t quite make sense of this. I know it must have something to do with the Struggle of the Orders!
Dr G 24:35 Guess what, guys? It’s the struggle and fair enough. And this leads us into a couple of really big ticket events that take place in the fifth century, which is the first and the second plebeian secession,
Dr Rad 24:49 Ah, yes.
Dr G 24:49 where, this idea that the have nots get so completely frustrated with their inability to be able to. To produce something in this new republic that actually helps them, supports them in their difficult lives, that they decide it’s easier to up sticks and go somewhere else and leave all of those elite, Fancy Pants patrician people to rule over each other in without the plebeians having to be involved. And it doesn’t seem to take very long. So we talk about the way that we have the first dictator in about 498 and then only four years later in 494 so we’re less than 20 years into the Republic. At this point, it seems that certain people have gotten so jack of this system that they’re like, it’s time to go somewhere else. Let’s leave Rome. We’ve been here for a while. I don’t want anything more to do with it. And so they leave what is the urban boundary of Rome, which is determined by the pomerium, and they go and head out to a place known as the Mons Sacer, “the sacred mount”, sometimes also referred to as the Aventine. But they might be different places, and it’s this moment where they seem to decide that they need their own representation as well. They need people to negotiate on their behalf, because the patricians aren’t satisfied with this situation. They’re like, what are you doing? Running away. We need you. We need you. And they’re like, Well, you need to treat us better. So it’s a bit like an abusive relationship.
Dr Rad 26:30 It does feel that way.
Dr G 26:32 It does feel that way. And what the plebeians do is they nominate a couple of people to represent their interests. So they kind of like, go for like, you can talk to our lawyers. Okay, don’t talk to me. Talk to my lawyers. And these two people become the start of what will be known as the tribune of the plebs.
Dr Rad 26:54 Very important.
Dr G 26:54 Very important.
Dr Rad 26:56 And this is really interesting as well, because we talked obviously about the dictator coming into play in this century, but this is obviously the century when we see the tribune of the plebs come into play, which remains a really important and unusual position in Rome’s history for different reasons at different times. Obviously it shifts with with each century, but certainly it becomes a real bug bear in the quarrels between the patricians and the plebeians, because the patricians really regret ever giving into this. They’re like, damn it. They really had me over a barrel, and I wish I’d never agreed to that. And they’re constantly trying to think of ways to either undermine this office or actually get their hands on it so that they can presumably dominate that as well.
Dr G 27:41 Kind of horrifying. Very like, Okay, you have representation, but how can we ruin that for you? So it doesn’t interfere with our…
Dr Rad 27:48 We should have never given you that representation!
Dr G 27:50 I have regrets.
Dr Rad 27:54 Regrets, I have a few.
Dr G 27:58 A patrician refrain for the ages.
Dr Rad 28:01 I was gonna say “My Way” seems a very fitting song for the patricians. I think that’s kind of why the plebians are always so upset.
Dr G 28:07 It does make an awful lot of sense.
Dr Rad 28:09 Yeah.
Dr G 28:09 So we have this situation where the in the first secession, the plebeians are convinced to return. It does take some negotiation. They’re like, all right, but you know, we need to have this political representation. We need these tribune of the plebs. Now, all of this is kind of up for grabs in terms of the source material as well. We certainly are not sure about most things to do with this century, but these are the tales that our source material, like Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are suggesting, Dionysius of Halicarnassus are suggesting, and you have some smoothing over of all of this, but problems do bubble under the surface, and that’s what the struggle of the orders is really suggesting, that this is an ongoing process of struggle between These groups, and it all comes to a head again in 449, BCE, which is the second plebeian secession, where everyone’s like, just no, just no. And this is also a controversial situation as well, because at this stage, the republic is not smoothly functioning at all really. They’re under the leadership of a group called the decemvirate so things have gotten a little bit out of hand, and this will tie into some other things as well as we get further into this. But essentially, people are interested in knowing exactly what the laws are in this place, and it seems like some people have been keeping the laws a bit secret. They haven’t been written down properly. They’re not in a public, accessible place, so you can’t just go and find out what the laws are for yourself. Usually, what seems to happen is you try to do something. Thing as a citizen of Rome, somebody more powerful or important than you tells you that you’re not allowed to do that, and in fact, you’ve broken the law, and you didn’t even know that there was a law about that. So there’s a real frustration coming through that, well, if this place has laws, surely everyone needs to know what they are, and this is where they decide to establish something like the decemvirate, which is a group of 10 men, and we’ll get into more detail about them later, but they’re supposed to be putting together a publicly accessible law record. So that’d be nice, but it’s not going well. The plebeians decide they need to secede again. They run away. They head to the Aventine and to the Capitolione Hills. And this really forces another negotiation moment with the elite class. And so there’s this whole situation again, where the patricians have to, sort of, you know, make some concessions. It’s not ideal. They don’t want to, but everybody’s threatening to leave them. So they’re like, Okay, maybe I need to talk to them.
Dr Rad 31:08 It took quite a few diamond tennis bracelets and red roses to win them back.
Dr G 31:12 Well, look, you know, some paid lunches would really be helpful right now.
Dr Rad 31:17 But this is these two secessions are actually the perfect example of how we’ve got the this larger narrative being used to tie together events which may have been quite separate, because the first secession is really about debt, about the fact that with all the warfare happening on top of just the general inequality and hardship that is life in ancient Rome at that point in time, people are really struggling to hang on to what little they have, because they’re constantly away fighting things fall into neglect. They fall into debt. It just becomes a vicious cycle where eventually they find themselves, you know, enslaved for debt in some cases, and they’re not happy about that. The second secession comes about because of the law about the laws. As you said, people wanting things to be written down so that they don’t, you know, find themselves, you know, someone running up to something going, oh, a black cat crossed your path on a Sunday. That’ll be 10 sesterces. Not that that would happen. That’s ridiculous in our every circumstances. But the law about the laws is the key to the decemvirate, so it’s a totally different issue, on top of which it’s also about the fact that the second decemvirate doesn’t let go of their power, that is a trigger, and they’re abusing their power. So it’s also relating to those sorts of issues, so seemingly quite different reasons to secede if we do believe that the second secession happened, but they are, they are both tied together as being examples of this larger conflict of the orders. And maybe our sources are a bit wrong about that. Maybe there are just different points of political social tension in ancient Rome, and it just seems like there’s a larger narrative going on here.
Dr G 32:58 Yeah, perhaps this is a view from hindsight, as we can often talk about as historians. It’s like you have to be really careful when thinking about any event in time and how it might be interconnected or not with the things that happen afterwards. You don’t want to get ahead of yourself too much. I’m not sure that Livy and Dionysus of Halicarnassus are necessarily as concerned about things like that.
Dr Rad 33:25 But I have a feeling they’re not.
Dr G 33:27 That certainly adds some complexity to what we can know about this century. So we’ve talked about the introduction of the tribune of the plebs as being related in part to this Struggle of the Orders. And what we also see, or what is also suggested in our source material, is that although they start out with two representatives, this does expand over the course of the century, until we get to about 10 later on. So part of what makes the tribune of the plebs really special is the fact that their body is considered to be inviolable in the time that they’re holding the role. And this means that in times of physical danger, citizens can run up to them and sort of hold on to the tribune, if you like, sort of seek physical protection, and because the tribune is considered to be inviolable, they are able to physically protect citizens. Now this seems like a really kind of specific thing, but if you think about what would life have been like in the early urban Roman state, where some people are allowed to carry sticks by permission and some people are not, you might think to yourself, well, sometimes you need to run away from the guys with the cudgels and find some safety with somebody who’s designated as inviolable you cannot produce. Violence against them. So that’s the thing. So I think when we think about Rome, obviously it comes to mind as this kind of like militaristic, powerful empire. But in this early period of history, we can start to see these really early, tangible signs of the kind of physical violence that’s always at play in its political landscape, even amongst themselves. So the fact that to be a magistrate means you do get to have a bodyguard, and you can push people out of the way, and if things are going really badly, you can hit people suggest that this is a pretty rough and ready place, and having somebody who is able to offer physical protection to people who are outside of the elite becomes a really important force, and we seem to think that it develops in this century.
Dr Rad 35:52 I have to say, thinking about the tribune of the playoffs at this moment in time, it does make ancient Rome sound like a gigantic game of cops and robbers, and robbers and the tribune of the plebs is the safe you know, like, when you used to play that game, when you were little, you’d be like, safe. I’m safe. Can’t touch me. I’m safe.
Dr G 36:08 Yup yup. I found the person. Tap it.
Dr Rad 36:11 Yeah, but it does, as you say, it kind of highlights just how small scale all of this must have been violent, but small scale, because if you just have two guys who are the safe points. It wouldn’t really work if Rome was gigantic.
Dr G 36:25 Yeah, you would hope that it’s a small place, because that doesn’t seem like enough people to offer protection.
Dr Rad 36:32 No, it does not. I also feel kind of bad for the tribunes. I feel like they would receive a lot of very sweaty, panicky hugs.
Dr G 36:39 Wow. You know,
Dr Rad 36:40 Tasty.
Dr G 36:42 Thank you. Yes, I’ll save you, just don’t touch me. And the patricians aren’t very happy about this. This would seem.
Dr Rad 36:52 No.
Dr G 36:53 It’s a problem. They didn’t really want to allow this. They had to. They were forced into this, and so they are often seeking to bring down the tribune of the plebs from within, it would seem, either through bribery, outright threats, or even worst of all, trying to co opt themselves into the roles so that they also are a tribune of the plebs and can whittle things away from the inside in that sense. So there is a sense in which the tribune of the plebs is always a little bit contentious and also a little bit exposed at all times to whatever the patricians are up to.
Dr Rad 37:37 I do love that idea that the patricians are like, yeah. I mean, it’s totally legit for me to represent plebeian interests and be attributed with the plebs as a patrician. Like, what’s the problem, guys?
Dr G 37:46 I’m interested in your best interests. I’m interested in all our best interests,
Dr Rad 37:52 Conflicting interests? I don’t know what you mean! The height of absurdity. So Dr, G, I believe if people want to go back and listen to our very first episode covering the tribune of the plebs, they have to go all the way back to Episode 59 which we called “Introducing the Tribune of the Plebs”.
Dr G 38:12 I’m glad we’ve got this very, very logical naming system. Easy to find what you’re looking for, guys.
Dr Rad 38:20 Indeed.
Dr G 38:21 We talk about the children of the plebs a lot.
Dr Rad 38:22 Yeah. Now, of course, it’s not all internal drama by any means. In Rome in the fifth century, if anything, this is the century that Rome starts to really put itself on the map. I think I mean the Regal period, sure, but it’s a little bit, you know, it’s a little bit more mythical, dare I say legendary? It’s a little hard to know what’s going on in that time period. So there’s certainly not a predominant power at any point in this century. They are not the Rome that gets made into glorious movies like Gladiator.
Dr G 38:57 Certainly not.
Dr Rad 38:58 But we do see some really interesting interactions with them and other major powers in Italy at this point in time. So we of course have the Etruscans to the north, very influential culture on Rome itself. There’s a lot of interchange there, but also, you know, some conflict. And then we also have the Sabines to the east. They are major players in the fifth century, not quite as much, though, as the aequians and the volscians who are to the south and the Southeast. Oh, if I had $1 for every time I’d said the Aequians and the Volscians, Dr, G.
Dr G 39:38 You would be able to retire right now.
Dr Rad 39:40 I could be a podcaster full time. It’d be amazing. Let’s set up that system.
Dr G 39:45 Yes, I think so. So yeah, Rome is small. It is not predominant in its region necessarily. It seems to be engaging in back and forth conflict. With all of its neighbors. And the fifth century, within the broader terms of what we know about Italy itself, the whole the whole kit and caboodle from north to south, that whole peninsula across this century, it seems to be a century where nobody is really flourishing as much as they have done previously.
Dr Rad 40:22 That is true, yeah.
Dr G 40:23 So the Etruscans seem to have this really sort of thriving trading culture, and they have an influence that spreads all the way into Campania so south of Rome in the sixth century, and that seems to really be curtailed in the fifth century. So they start to lose their foothold in the south, and they start to expand a little bit more and flourish more in the north. So if you think about where the Po River is, they’re doing quite well up there in the fifth century, but where Rome is in the center of Italy, the Etruscans aren’t doing so well, and it’s becoming that that’s their lowest threshold, like the lowest point into Italy, that they are able to retain any control. They lose that influence in Campania. And so that’s all happening. You’ve got the situation in Magna Graecia, where, again, the archeological record suggests that the trading has really slowed down, that you’ve got a lot of infighting between peoples who are from ancestral Greek colonist backgrounds with people from Italic backgrounds. So there starts to be some more internal fighting going on, and the trade network sort of falling away a little bit, and Rome sort of comes through in this era, but we don’t see them flourishing in particular in this century, and they actually have a lot of trouble in certain moments. There’s some good 10 year periods in this century where it seems like they’re getting sort of hit by plague, or they’re going back and forwards against the Volscians and the Aequians, but the next year they lose, and the next year they win, and they’re just sort of fighting over the same bits of territory and the same bits of booty, and it doesn’t appear to be going anywhere. So Rome isn’t preeminent by any means. They have a couple of friends in the region, but they also are struggling with a foothold, and we do get this sense that one of the ways that warfare operates in this century seems to be through the framework of the family. So the gens is a really important mechanism for military power, and the one that really stands out is the Fabian gens in this century, because they’re nearly completely wiped out through their conflict with the Etruscan outpost of Cremera to the north in around about 477 BCE. So they have this huge problem where they lose almost every eligible man who could continue their patriarchal line in this moment. And so we get the sense that warfare isn’t just about elite people trying to levy an army together, but it is about families determining what their interests are and where they might want to send their own personal war band.
Dr Rad 43:28 And I think that this leads so much into the politics that we’ve just been talking about as well. I think with military power obviously being so crucial to Rome survival at this point in time, forget about thriving, just survival against all these other rival powers. With that military backbone being so crucial, it makes sense that we also see the genses being so crucial in political life as well, and certain families being more dominant than others, the networks, you know, the patron client relationships that kind of start to spring up. It’s very futile when we look at it. And that’s where I think the chaos comes from as well, because it is about whether these families, I think, actually have the ability to follow through in a military sense, not just a political sense. And that’s why I think that there’s a little bit more chaos to it than you might otherwise be led to believe where it’s like, well, the republic was founded, and this is how it worked. And, you know, this is how it operated.
Dr G 44:28 Yeah, so the sense that there is, like, this chaotic, familial element that is at the heart of Roman politics, I think, is a really useful idea to take away from the fifth century, because it is going to continue. We’re going to see the rise of different gentes over time, and that’s part and parcel of the way that Roman politics is centered in the extended family in really particular ways. So obviously you have an expanding range of magisterial positions that occur as we go through time in the fifth century. We’re not entirely sure about how complex that structure is, but there’s some and it’s going to get more complex, but certainly we see patterns of families coming into these roles, and it seems to be the case that there is a sense of trust that if a family has held a position before, then they kind of have an experience that will be useful for the next person in their family who comes into that role. So families build reputations within this republican structure in a way that may have not been possible in a monarchical system, but we also see that warband element, so we can’t forget the way that family is operating here, and maybe it is having more of an effect than we’re really aware of. The Struggle of the Orders might be repositioned as something like struggles amongst gentes, for instance.
Dr Rad 46:00 Yeah, definitely. And I think it also makes sense that if we look at the archeological record, and I know this is something we flagged in our detailed episodes, but it makes sense that this would be a century of strife and highs and lows. If we can see in the archeological record that most societies in Italy are struggling at this point in time. You know, there’s even scholars who will write about this thing of the fifth century crisis. So we know that whenever humans are just natural, isn’t it that if you’re put in a difficult position, there’s higher stress in terms of either the cost of your living or having access to certain resources that you need, it’s only natural that you’re going to be more aggressive, perhaps more ready to fight with other people and other groups. It just makes sense. That’s why people are obviously. It’s one of the many reasons why, in this day and age, in 2024 people are so concerned about the effect that climate change is going to have, because it is going to reduce our resources, and it is going to increase our cost of living. So it’s all very well and good to hark back to good old days when none of this was a problem. But that’s not a political problem, you know, you can, you can look back on, you know, things 20, 30, years ago and think, oh, wow, we had it really good back then. I’m going to, you know, think about the politics back then and try and return to that era. That’s not what this is about environmental issues, which, you know, going back to that political party, isn’t going to change. And so to me, it makes so much sense, because what we see in our own time period, I think, is emblematic of what they’re going through. You know, it’s just, it’s just about pressure, stress, all those same sorts of things, human, behavior, I don’t think changes that much in these sort of broader areas that we’re looking at.
Dr G 47:44 Yeah, and I think this is one of the keys to thinking about this state of lack of flourishing, if you like, it’s environmental, and this has consequences for the culture.
Dr Rad 47:57 Yeah.
Dr G 47:57 You can see that playing out pretty clearly for the Romans in this period, like they are on struggle street, and there’s various ways that they try to deal with that, one of which is this decemvirate that I flagged earlier. You know, it’s tough. So by the mid fifth century, BCE, so 452, nobody seems to be particularly happy in Rome. Maybe it’s to do with the dominance of certain elite folk. Maybe it’s to do with the ongoing year on year wars that seem to be coming up and dragging on. But there does become a sense of concern around this idea that the laws are just not explicitly known, and a codification of them would be an important step. This pressure has been building for a while, and this eventually culminates in the creation of the “decemviri consulari imperio legibus scribundis”, the 10 men with consular imperium for writing down the laws.
Dr Rad 49:07 Romans really have to work on their catchy titles for things.
Dr G 49:11 We can call them the decemvirs, I think that’s easier. So they effectively replace the consulship for a short while. And I don’t know.
Dr Rad 49:19 Well, all magistracies, isn’t it? Like, basically, there are no – I thought it was the case that they were like no magistracies apart from – and that’s why it was such a big step, because they had to hand over everything to these guys. It wasn’t it because there was, like, no place of appeal?
Dr G 49:34 Yes. But also, do we have other magistrates?
Dr Rad 49:38 Well, that’s the question.
Dr G 49:41 So I wasn’t I was considering opening the thorny door of, do we even have consuls? But I’m gonna leave that mostly shut.
Dr Rad 49:49 Don’t rain on my parade of imaginary magistrates!
Dr G 49:53 There are some people who used to be in charge in Rome, and now they have been replaced by these 10 men who have a singular job. Their job is to write down the laws, and that would be fine. You got to get the codification. You got to get it done. This is going to become the Twelve Tables, which is exciting, but the project takes way longer than anybody is expecting, and it’s important that they’re given consular imperium as well, because this means that if they need to take a break from the codification of the laws and go and fight a war instead, they have the legitimate authority to do that too. So things take longer than anybody thought they would. One wonders, if they’re being delayed deliberately? Isn’t it nice to be in power? Isn’t it nice for you and nine of your buddies to be swatting about in charge of this place and not really have to give it up until you get the job done? But what if you do? Yeah, what if it takes your whole life to get that job done? So anyway, in 450 it’s decided that there needs to be a second decemvirate. So the first one sort of dragged on a little bit too long, at least twice as long as expected, because they thought it would only take a year, but it’s taken at least two and they’re like, okay, we need to get a second group of these guys. And we really need to finish this task. And the second group is really the choice pick of a guy called Appius Claudius. So he stands out as the preeminent figure in this time period. He has enough charisma and enough tszuj that everyone’s like, well, he should be in charge of that second decemvirate. So he handpicks it basically, and has all of his buddies brought in, and then they all start behaving badly, I think might be the nice way of putting it.
Dr Rad 51:49 To the surprise of nobody who knows the Claudian family.
Dr G 51:54 The Claudian family does have a reputation. Remember this, it is going to become important over and over again.
Dr Rad 52:03 It will, it will different branches and yet.
Dr G 52:06 And yet, yeah, they can’t help themselves. He ends up ruining some innocent lives. And it’s only after a supreme act of violation of Verginia, who is a plebeian woman that the Roman senate who standing off in the background, just a bunch of old men being like, yeah, I don’t know if we should let him do this anymore. They finally are persuaded that the decemvirate needs to be dealt with.
Dr Rad 52:38 And the murder of Dentatus. Dr G, everyone forgets the murder of Dentatus, “the man with teeth”.
Dr G 52:44 The murder of Dentatus is still etched in my soul, because I will never be over the grief. Let’s make that clear. Dentatus did so much, and how was he repaid? Terribly. So eventually, the decemvriate is shut down, we get what we think is their work in the fragments that remain of the Twelve Tables. And it is a bonkers text. So it does seem like maybe the patricians were making up some laws because it’s chaotic out there.
Dr Rad 53:15 Yeah, but it’s so fundamental, isn’t it? It’s such a big deal whenever a society gets to this point where they’re like, right? We’re codifying the laws, and we’re going to write them down this time.
Dr G 53:25 Once and for all, people will know what’s going on. And boy, absolutely did you want to know less about fruit trees.
Dr Rad 53:32 Well, that’s just it. That what we have left of the Twelve Tables, we do have a bit, but it is still somewhat fragmentary, in spite of its immense importance, apparently, to Roman society.
Dr G 53:42 Yeah, very fragmentary. A lot to do with understanding where the borders are between you and your neighbor’s property, and the sorts of things that pertain to what is okay to do if you find something on the wrong side of the fence. And yes, exactly you know, can you drop down the branches? And it’s like, sometimes you can.
Dr Rad 54:03 And this is the Roman dream, Dr G, to have your own land. Which brings me to one of the other big themes of this century, apparently, the dream of agrarian reform. So along with the law about the laws, yeah, law about the laws, issues over debt. This is probably the completes, the trio, I think, of the top plebeian demands in the Struggle of the Orders. It’s a little tricky to understand this, because if we look at what the sources say it is the fact that there is public land, the “ager publicus”, apparently.
Dr G 54:40 Apparently.
Dr Rad 54:41 And it is not always being used in a fair manner. We think that, according to our sources, the elites are perhaps controlling it overly much, instead of it being held in common use for all the citizens. Now we’ve always struggled with this storyline, because it just seems so much like the issues that arise in the late republic and are super controversial at that time period. And this is involves, for those of you who know a little bit about Roman history, the famous Gracchi brothers, Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus. They get swept up in these issues of land reform in the late republic. But it’s just brought up so many times.
Dr G 55:27 It is a huge issue, and it seems that Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are very fixated on it. It seems to be one of the pain points of the broader Struggle of the Orders, the idea that there is ager publicus – at this point in time – seems a little far fetched, I would suggest, if we think about the broader context of the fifth century in Italy is not a time of flourishing, it’s a time of struggle, generally speaking, and Rome isn’t expanding very much. Now they do make some acquisitions in the fifth century, little outposts here and there, but it is not at all clear that they are controlling vast tracts of land, no and even if they were controlling even small areas, they tend to lose them and then have to regain them back. It’s not like they are secure holdings. And let’s say, for instance, you took over a place in the fifth century, and you were Rome, and then the next year you lost it, and then the next year you gained it back. Do you gain it back in exactly the same way that you had it before? And what portion of that, if any, would be considered common use land? Goodness knows, it’s madness to me. So I feel like this is something that is really hard to reconcile with just how unstable things appear to be. In the fifth century BCE, the Romans are very much struggling to hold targets that they acquire if they are expanding. It’s not at all clear where that land would go or how it would be used, although sometimes there’s mention of colonists being sent out. And, yeah, it does feel like we’re really getting a later issue being sort of superimposed on this very first century of the republic, just to sort of give us a sense that this has always been on the cards for Rome and the stories that happen much later with the Gracchi are maybe justified to a certain extent that the idea has always been at play.
Dr Rad 57:49 Yeah, and I think as well, if we brush aside the first century BCE curtain that might be covering these issues, maybe what is at stake here is that with all this warfare going on with Rome and its neighbors, maybe it is about the fair and just distribution of booty and access to resources that are being gained in whatever expeditions the Romans are carrying on. Maybe that’s really what is at stake here, and for Livy and Dionysius living in the time period that they live in, that would be land, you know, that that would be a major issue, or maybe it reflects a paucity of land in this time period that people are struggling to survive. I can kind of see some connection, obviously, between that and the issues of debt that we’ve talked about and and there being a division between, obviously, people that have more and people that have less. It’s not necessarily that that that you can put that directly on top of patricians for beings, but I can definitely understand that. It’s a very old story, and one that we still obviously experience now, this division between people that have very much and people that have very little.
Dr G 58:59 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think the dream of agrarian reform, it’s there. How does it manifest? And I like your theory relating to like, is it about equitable distribution of the booty, the things that are taken in warfare, as much as it might be about –
Dr Rad 59:18 Gotta divide up that ass!
Dr G 59:22 Shake it, shake it
Dr Rad 59:22 Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve done one of those jokes.
Dr G 59:25 I always appreciate them, thinking also about like, how does it look when you’re struggling to survive? And, yeah, this is one of the problems that Rome suffers from as well, is that it’s like, this is not a hunky dory time to be a Roman. It is a time where there are plagues, there are ongoing, sort of rotating military campaigns that mean that you’re losing people consistently, which is then affecting your ability to farm, affecting your ability to bring in a harvest, and, yeah, if you don’t have enough land to subsist or produce a little bit of surplus, then obviously this is going to lead to real tensions. So perhaps you do want some agrarian reform.
Dr Rad 1:00:16 Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s that’s something that, again, just to do the modern parallels, which I love to do, even though it completely time stamps out this episode. It is that idea that sometimes when people encounter things that cost a lot, like in terms of clothing or food, they get really outraged in Anglophone countries like Britain and Australia and America. And it’s understandable, because you’ve been led to believe that these sorts of things should be cheap and plentiful, but actually, when you look at the amount of labor and work that goes into producing these resources, and how crucial they are to survival, if everyone in that supply chain and in that production is getting paid well enough, then actually, these things probably should cost a little more than what we’ve been led to believe. Doesn’t mean it should. I’m not saying I agree with the cost of living crisis that is happening in many countries right now, but I think we’ve been led to believe that certain things should be cheap and that we should have huge amounts of disposable income, when actually, if you look at how people used to live in ancient Rome, a huge amount of whatever they were bringing in, not that would be cash, like for us, but whatever they were bringing in, it is labor intensive, and a lot of what they’re trying to produce is just like basic enough clothes to keep them warm or cool, depending on the season, somewhere to live and enough food to survive. That’s really what they’re looking for here. Sure, everyone enjoys entertainment, everyone enjoys that extra stuff that you have. Obviously, there is like something inbuilt in us where there’s competition and rivalry and we want to have more. But I think that comes from a self rival instinct, whereas these days, what it applies to obviously that more is becoming just so extravagant, the lifestyle that we expect with that more is just, it’s insane when you look at what people are aspiring to have, and that’s why it’s just, it’s yeah, just not reachable for most.
Dr G 1:02:12 Yeah, for sure. And I think when we’re thinking about Rome and how people are struggling in this century. It is perhaps even more, I don’t want to say, laudable, that’s the word that came to mind. But that’s not the right word. Even more interesting. Stick with something really neutral. One of my favorite words interesting that they do field as many military forces as they do absolutely part of it is about survival, and part of it is trying to create that sort of protective barrier between yourself and the danger. So if you can have that buffer zone, it’s strategic, military, you know, it’s tactical. If you can do that, that’s really useful, because that allows you to then relax a little bit in terms of being able to produce a little bit extra so that you can do that again. And that’s kind of the struggle that Rome and all of her neighbors are in, is that they’re all trying to gain just a little bit of security for themselves. That means that they’ve got enough surplus to do it again if they have to, because it’s pretty clear that they will have to year on year. So I think this leads us very nicely into thinking about the way that this militarization and conflict throughout the region is really becoming more and more severe as the century goes on, because they have to develop this whole new political entity, the military tribune with consular power.
Dr Rad 1:03:55 Such a wordy title.
Dr G 1:03:57 It is a wordy title. And I don’t know that they’re I see people sort of like, you know, turning it into, like an abbreviation, the MTCP, and I’m like no! It’s the military tribune with consular power. It is so you can’t have a new political system without some teething issues. The dictator has been a bit of a solution. The tribune of the plebs a bit of a solution. And then we’ve got this idea that the major magistracies are these two consuls, this idea that there’s a sharing of what used to be monarchical power between these two figures. But sometimes you’ve got even bigger issues, and one of the key facets of the consulship is this idea that they are legally, legitimately able to field military forces, which is great, because you could have two armies going in different directions led by two different people. But what if? What if, Dr Rad, you had more than two enemies that you needed to deal with in a particular year?
Dr Rad 1:05:06 Which I think Rome often does. They managed to annoy a lot of people. It’s impressive. Actually, it’s laudable, you might say.
Dr G 1:05:14 Let’s say you’re not great at making friends. And let’s say you’re better at making enemies. And let’s say all your enemies decide to attack in the same year. Well, maybe you got a bit of a crisis on your hands, because you’ve got a situation now where you’re like, well, if I had one big issue, I could bring in a dictator, but I’ve got four big issues that I need to deal with…
Dr Rad 1:05:39 I got 99 problems.
Dr G 1:05:42 Exactly. It’s like, my problems are multiplying, and I just don’t have the manpower. And all of a sudden, you’re like, I need more people to be able to lead armies. This is where the military tribune with consular power comes in. And not only is it beneficial in terms of being able to have more armies in the field, although presumably they’re smaller armies than if you had two big armies. But there is a sense in which it’s a military tribune, which is kind of like a lower level position within the military structure. And this allows them to co-opt plebeians into this leadership role all of a sudden. Or that’s the theory anyway.
Dr Rad 1:06:27 That’s the theory.
Dr G 1:06:28 That’s the theory. So sometimes we have four military tribunes with consular power. Sometimes we have six. It gets more chaotic as the century goes on, and theoretically, we’re allowed to have some plebeians in there, but that really doesn’t happen until we get right to the end of the fifth century BCE.
Dr Rad 1:06:52 Which is, I think again, one of those interesting examples of potentially the narrative maybe overriding what was actually happening. So rather than saying, look, guys, I’m not going to lie to you, things were tough in this century. Whew, boy. We almost got snuffed out completely a few times, rather than potentially admitting that, it feels like whenever we talk about military tribunes with consular power, it’s far more a political issue, where it’s about who’s going to hold the power, the ultimate power? Is it going to be a patrician? Is it going to be a plebeian? Constantly we are talking about this rivalry, about, Oh, what the what’s the election going to be for the next year? Is it going to be a consular year, or is it going to be military tribunes with consular power? And it’s never really connected to the fact that maybe it’s because there is so much going on militarily, and then towards the end of the fifth century, BCE, rather than Rome sort of trading tit for tat with neighbors, which feels like what happens a lot of the time in the fifth century BCE, it seems like Rome is actually going a little bit more aggressively for expansion. And so it would make sense again, to have military tribunes with consular power if you were trying to be on the front foot more than you were on the back foot, or, you know, just responding to some sort of other conflict where it’s being resolved militarily. So yeah, it’s really weird that we very rarely see talk about this position, and how many there were of them in the sense of, well, Rome just has that many problems, guys.
Dr G 1:08:26 So many problems. And we just need so many people to help us out.
Dr Rad 1:08:30 Yeah.
Dr G 1:08:31 And sometimes they do get sent to similar locations. So as we hit the end of the fifth century BCE, we are at the start of the siege of Veii and it does seem like there are moments where Rome sends a whole bunch of commanders to the same location, being like, alright, well, it’s military tribunes of consular power this year. But that’s the problem, and so that does feed into this idea that you’ve suggested that we’re talking about something that is not just about the practicality of, can we field enough armies? Because we’ve got too many war fronts that we need to deal with to this is a political situation, and we certainly don’t want some people sitting in that consulship this year. It’s got to be a military tribunate instead, and the ins and outs of that are completely beyond our capacity to reckon with, with the source material that we’ve got. But it is fascinating.
Dr Rad 1:09:32 It definitely is, and I feel very happy, at least, that we did manage to get a plebeian in just under the line.
Dr G 1:09:39 Scraping in.
Dr Rad 1:09:42 Yeah. Well, Dr, G, I think that that does definitely give people a bit of a highlight through looking back and seeing those tensions between the haves and have nots, whoever they may be, we’re not. We’re not going to make them fit in these labelled categories, we’re too cool and hip for that.
Dr G 1:10:02 I don’t like, I don’t like labels.
Dr Rad 1:10:04 Yeah, don’t like labels. And definitely the power of the families and that extended family structure being so important. So the gens being really at the heart of the political and military life of Rome at this point in time, and that perhaps explaining why there is this sense of chaos. It’s just lurking beneath the order that Livy and Dionysius have given to the narratives. It seems so, seems like everything’s so together. But really, you peek underneath it, it’s not quite a set in stone, as they would have us.
Dr G 1:10:38 Yeah, open that door. Have a look inside. Close it again. Be like Rome. It’s chaos in there.
Dr Rad 1:10:42 Yeah.
Dr G 1:10:43 Rome certainly doesn’t have a formal army in this century. Far from it. It is really a situation where they have to be called up every sort of campaign season.
Dr Rad 1:10:55 Ah, the levy.
Dr G 1:10:57 Yeah. So there is a levy every time, and so people have to sign up to be on campaign, which must take a reasonable amount of time. So that is interesting. People don’t get paid. It’s part of your civic duty, not something that you are getting an income from. And we start to see a little hint that potentially, there is payment offered to Roman military forces right at the end of the fifth century BCE. And again, it’s related to the siege of Veii.
Dr Rad 1:11:31 A little hint? You’re calling Livy, talking about military pay multiple times, a little hint? Well, that’s just shows how much do you value him, Dr G!
Dr G 1:11:42 It’s a very small hint. I would not be the first historian who has a small quibble with Livy on this point.
Dr Rad 1:11:51 I know, I know.
Dr G 1:11:54 The idea that you could run a siege, which has to run regardless of the season, rain, hail, shine, you’re on siege. The idea that that would maybe necessitate or encourage some sort of monetary compensation from the elites does make some sense, because prior to having a long, protracted siege, warfare tends to be campaign season only. So do your levy in the early spring. You get out in the summer, you wrap it up before winter, because you’ve got to get home. So that whole situation in terms of like warfare being tied to the seasonal calendar might allow you to just sort of be like, it’s a citizen duty to turn up and do the fighting, and it’s like, and the weather is nice, and you’re hanging out with your bros, and you’re like, yeah, look, I’ve seen some traumatic things, but, you know, I had some fun as well.
Dr Rad 1:12:53 It’s summertime, and you know what that means?
Dr G 1:12:56 It means I’m wearing my shorty shorts and I’m on the battlefield with my bros
Dr Rad 1:13:01 Who wears short shorts? Actually, we should change that rewind, who wears short skirts?
Dr G 1:13:10 I mean, it’s beautiful out there. You know, there’s a man hanging out with men writing letters home. Dear Marcia.
Dr Rad 1:13:20 So the other thing that we definitely see throughout the fifth century BCE, not surprising, and again, something that modern listeners perhaps have greater understanding of now than they would have 10 years ago, is just how much illness can have an impact on a civilization. So we certainly see devastating outbreaks of plague. What exactly that illness is, when they say plague or pestilence, is anybody’s guess, because, of course, we have very different understandings of medical matters in the modern time period to the ancient. But certainly the way that that could really bring Rome to its knees. And that, I think, also links into other disasters, like, you know, famine, infestations of, you know, insects, anything like that. Obviously can be really devastating for these sorts of civilizations. And I think we kind of started to feel like that wasn’t the case again in very privileged countries. But Covid really showed us that that is not the case at all, that any civilization actually can be ground to a halt if the illness is serious enough, so.
Dr G 1:14:30 Yeah, and I think the thing for Rome is, the sad benefit for Rome in all of this sort of stuff is that plagues – they’re not interested in your borders. You know they will sweep through your neighbors, just as they will sweep through you. So you have a situation across the fifth century where Rome falls under the blight of some sort of plague and pestilence. But they’re not the only ones, so it’s not like their enemies. Can take advantage of the situation in any particular way, because they, too, are having a plague and all lying about being like just let it be over. I can’t live like this anymore.
Dr Rad 1:15:13 The odd time when they have tried to take advantage because they haven’t been infected, usually they end up getting infected because they got too close to the Romans, exactly. So isolation, guys, it works.
Dr G 1:15:24 I mean, if you don’t have the plague, don’t run at somebody who has the plague.
Dr Rad 1:15:28 Yes, social distancing, it’s a thing.
Dr G 1:15:31 It works, guys, it works. Follow the science.
Dr Rad 1:15:35 Yeah, and so, yeah. Basically, we’ve got the fifth century being really interesting, because it is a time of struggle. It’s a time of conflict. Rome is trying to establish itself. It certainly is a power that’s worthy of discussion at this time. You know, people are definitely taking note of it. People want to conquer it. People want to grind it into the dust under their sandaled heel. But it certainly isn’t a major power that is winning every battle. I mean, I if I thought of it at the time, we really should have kept a scoreboard of how many times Rome wins and how many times it loses, because I feel like it would come out fairly evenly.
Dr G 1:16:13 I feel like, yeah, for every victory there’s definitely a loss. And you know, they’re having this ongoing struggle with the Etruscans. The Volscians are a thorn in their sides, the Aequians and later on, the Faliscans. And they’ve got some friends as well. The Tusculans seem to be always on Rome’s side.
Dr Rad 1:16:32 Adorable Tusculans, yes.
Dr G 1:16:34 Rome has made some friends. The Hernicians are their friends, which is cute, but yeah, it’s it’s it’s bonkers out there. And they are not a regional leader at all. They’re one of many competing for the same resources in the same very nice part of Central Italy.
Dr Rad 1:16:54 Yeah. And I like to say thank you to everybody who’s been with us throughout this past century and before, if you were with us for the Regal period as well, and also the period before that, when we were doing things much more randomly, kind of like the Romans. See, order develops with time.
Dr G 1:17:09 Order from chaos.
Dr Rad 1:17:12 That’s right, that’s how it happens. Now I should say, I know that I’ve been a little bit present just today, and I often am a bit presentist in the way that we talk about things, but I think that the reason why I like history so much Dr G is that by thinking through the experiences that the Romans had and the experiences that I’ve had myself, it actually kind of helps me to understand their scenario, even though I know it’s not the same. I know you can’t translate my life and put it into ancient Rome by any means, but in terms of the basic emotions that they were feeling, or the very, very broad experiences, I just feel like it gives me more empathy for what people were going through back then, and I also feel like it helps me to process what I’m going through right now as a person living on this planet.
Dr G 1:17:57 Yeah, and I think there’s a huge value to doing history as a way of understanding the self and for seeing certain parallels. Obviously, nothing is a one to one parallel. Everything is vastly different in all of its manifestations through time. But there are ways in which we can see the way that the Romans are sort of navigating their definition of self through the way the historians write about it much later.
Dr Rad 1:18:23 Absolutely, yeah, they’re doing the same thing, yeah.
Dr G 1:18:26 And that process of coming to grips with the past as a way of coming to grips with yourself, I think, is one of the great pleasures of history. So any point in time in which you do history and practice history, the outcome will always be a little bit different, and that is because your present is always a little bit different from the present of somebody else. So yeah, returning to these things over time, you start to learn more about yourself, more about your own society, and it raises questions, not just about the past, but also about the here and now, which I think is fascinating.
Dr Rad 1:19:00 Exactly. It makes it intelligible. I think history is at the end of a just good to think with. And there is no doubt in my mind that if I were plunked by a DeLorean, of course, into the fifth century BCE, I would probably die within a week, because I don’t have the skills necessary. But if I think about the sorts of issues that the Romans are talking about and wrestling with, you know, those sort of core conversations and questions about power and how a society should function, and what our responsibility to each other is if we’re living in form of society, I mean, it’s all very understandable all of a sudden, even though I’m like, wow, your life is so foreign, I can be like, wow, actually, we’re not that different.
Dr G 1:19:46 So true.
Dr Rad 1:19:48 So Dr, G, it’s been such a delight spending so much time in the fifth century. BCE, with you, and I cannot wait to see what a new century has in store for us.
Dr G 1:19:57 Did we just spend nearly a decade in the fifth century BCE?
Dr Rad 1:20:02 I think we did. We’re gonna have to live really long lives. Quick, take that magic potion!
Dr G 1:20:08 I’m very excited to start exploring the fourth century BCE, with you, Dr Rad, and I look forward to the next time we chat.
Dr Rad 1:20:15 Absolutely, we’re certainly not gonna run out of material!
Dr G 1:20:18 Oh, no!
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode - Monty Python's Life of Brian (1979)
Sep 19, 2024
We are in shock that it has taken us this long to cover the cult classic that is Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979). We have Rslaugesen over on Patreon to thank for pointing out this glaring oversight.
Special Episode – Monty Python’s Life of Brian (1979)
Once we got started, it was hard for us to stop talking about the Life of Brian. British comedy was a staple of our childhoods and Monty Python was one of our favourites. It was a treat to follow the development of this movie from Jesus Christ: Lust for Glory to a Sliding Doors-style story of Brian Cohen, born in the manger over from Christ.
The cast of Monty Python’s Life of Brian in a scene from the film
A still from Life of Brian showing Brian’s followers admiring his sandal, one of the sacred objects he unwittingly bestows upon them. Courtesy of FM Cinema.
Whilst Monty Python were probably trying to make a parody of 1970s Britain rather than a historically accurate portrait of first century CE Judea, we still found this film intriguing. From wolf’s nipples to imperialism, we take you through all the best Roman scenes… and perhaps a few non-Roman scenes as well. Who can resist talking about the Virgin Mandy?
Part of the appeal of Life of Brian is the fact that it is not afraid to make fun of the Romans (or anyone) and shows a much less glamorous side of the empire. Quite the contrast to the epics of the 1950s and 1960s.
Things to Look Out For:
Far too many ‘reenactments’ of our favourite moments
Comedies don’t always stand the test of time. We can spot some awkward moments in the film, but overall, we think Life of Brian stands the test of time. Forty-five years after it’s release, we would love to know whether you agree!
Our Sources
Blanshard, A. J. L., Shahabudin, K. 2011. ‘Satirising Cine-Antiquity – Monty Python’s Life of Brian 1979’ in Classics on Screen: Ancient Greece and Rome on Film (Bristol Classical Press), 172-193.
James G. Crossley (2011) ‘Life of Brian or Life of Jesus? Uses of Critical Biblical Scholarship and Non-Orthodox Views of Jesus in Monty Python’s Life of Brian.’ Relegere: Studies in Religion and Reception 1 (1): 93-114.
Cyrino, M. S. 2005. ‘Monty Python’s Life of Brian’ in Big Screen Rome (Blackwell), 176-193.
Ehrman, B. (2015). Brian and the Apocalyptic Jesus: Parody as a Historical Method. In Jesus and Brian (pp. 141–150). Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. https://doi.org/10.5040/9780567665362.ch-011
Horsley, Richard A. 2014. Jesus and the Politics of Roman Palestine (University of South Carolina Press)
Keddie, A. 2019. Class and Power in Roman Palestine: The Socioeconomic Setting of Judaism and Christian Origins (Cambridge University Press)
Levine, A.-J. (2015). Beards for Sale: The Uncut Version of Brian, Gender and Sexuality. In Jesus and Brian (pp. 167–184). Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. https://doi.org/10.5040/9780567665362.ch-013
Stiebel, G. D. 2015. ‘‘Romani Ite Domum’ – Expressions of Identity and Resistance in Judaea’ in Taylor, Joan E. (ed). Jesus and Brian: Exploring the Historical Jesus and his Times via Monty Python’s Life of Brian (Bloomsbury), 107-112.
Taylor, J. E. (Ed.). (2015). Jesus and Brian exploring the historical Jesus and his times via Monty Python’s Life of Brian. Bloomsbury T&T Clark.
Telford, W. (2015). Muggeridge/Stockwood interviewMonty Python’s Life of Brian and the Jesus Film. In Jesus and Brian (pp. 3–18). Bloomsbury Publishing Plc. https://doi.org/10.5040/9780567665362.ch-001
Sound Credits
Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad 0:15 Music. Welcome to the partial historians.
Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome,
Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad and
Dr G 0:33 I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Hello and welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad,
Dr G 1:07 and I am. Dr G, we are thrilled to be here.
Dr Rad 1:12 We are because today we are returning once more to my home, away from homes, Hollywood. Well, not really, Hollywood, actually,
Dr G 1:21 really, do you do you holiday in Hollywood? Actually,
Dr Rad 1:24 No I hate Hollywood, but we are returning to Rome at the movies, which is my safe space.
Dr G 1:32 I do like this space as well, and over the years, I feel like I’ve learned a lot from you and your expertise in this area. So I’m super excited for this episode.
Dr Rad 1:42 It is very kind of you to say, especially because I cannot understand Latin
Dr G 1:48 comes and goes.
Dr Rad 1:51 All right, so Dr, G, today we are actually looking at a British version of Rome on screen, and that is Monty Python’s Life of Brian, and I cannot believe we have not talked about it until this point.
Dr G 2:08 I know this is very exciting, and this has come about because of a Patreon request, which I think is excellent as well. Interested in the depiction of Rome on screen in what is essentially a satire of the period, but also the broader question of, what has Rome ever done for the provinces? I
Dr Rad 2:29 make so many Monty Python puns, it is actually insulting that we haven’t talked about these films at all. I mean, look, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna set the scene personally a little bit here. Dr, G, so. Dr G, you and I are Australian. Oh, God. Now because we’re Australians of a certain age, I don’t know about you, but I grew up watching a lot of British television. I think these days British culture is maybe less of a thing for anyone growing up in Australia. And obviously a lot of Australians don’t grow up here. And even even for our age group, it was probably because of my background being like Anglo background as well. That’s why I was watching that kind of stuff. But it was also because they were like four television channels, and I feel like the British influence was fairly strong, along with American influence and that sort of thing. I certainly watched American TV as well, but there were a lot of reruns on television that you would watch after school, and so I watched a lot of 50s, 60s, 70s television as a child born somewhere in the 80s, I won’t tell you where. I don’t know, is it the same for you?
Dr G 3:42 Yeah, by and large. So my father is English, so I think that has stronger,
Dr Rad 3:48 yeah, the force is strong with this one.
Dr G 3:51 Ah the imperialism. But this meant that there was a preference for British shows when I was a child, growing up in our household over American TV programming, yeah? So there tended to be rules around what you could watch that came out of America, whereas for English things and British things, it was much more sort of open slather, yeah, and the family was happy to oblige if you wanted to watch some Monty Python, yeah. And
Dr Rad 4:18 look, I think there’s something to be said for still to this day, there’s a certain brand to Australian humor that I think will always have a bit of a legacy in the British connection, in the sense that, if I think about the sort of reruns I would watch from America, they were very much like, Oh, darling. Did you get sauce on your tie again? Canned laughter. Whereas the British shows that I tended to watch growing up were, I think, a little bit more tongue in cheek, more absurdist,
Dr G 4:47 yeah, less canned laughter. It was really just waiting for you to laugh, and you got to choose when,
Dr Rad 4:54 yeah. So that’s my personal background. So I think that’s why Monty Python was very much a part of. Of my upbringing, along with other things that I consider to be classics like Black Adder. Ah,
Dr G 5:06 yes, another a love story. Yes, exactly
Dr Rad 5:08 like Black Adder, Are You Being Served Dad’s Army? I mean, the list goes on and on and on.
Dr G 5:15 And look, I was a great fan of red dwarf as well. I
Dr Rad 5:19 see I never actually watched that one anyway. I definitely was aware of it, even though I didn’t watch it myself. So yeah,
Dr G 5:27 yeah, there is a tendency in British humor from these periods to lean into class critique, which might be somewhere to start with. This film
Dr Rad 5:38 might be relevant indeed. All right, so let’s maybe start, I thought, with a basic overview of what this film is even about. And warning to you all, this will contain spoilers, but you’ve had decades to see in the film, because it came out before I was born.
Dr G 5:52 It came out in 1979 so we’re definitely younger than that.
Dr Rad 5:56 And look, there is a very quick way to sum up the basic premise of this film. So it is a film about Brian Cohen, a young man who happens to be born in the manger over from Jesus, and from there on, kind of lives a somewhat parallel life to Jesus Christ, in that he lives in the same area, in the same hood. This is the sliding doors of Jesus. It is, it is the sliding doors of Jesus. And so we basically follow the life story of Brian Cohen and see what happens in the time period in which he’s living, which is around, you know, somewhere in the 30s, CE, because it is in the year of our Lord, obviously. And so it kind of starts with the Nativity and goes through to Brian’s death in his sort of mid 30s, which is obviously around the same age that Jesus presumably was, if we take those dates to be accurate.
Dr G 6:50 Well, there’s some reasonable historical evidence for a man called Jesus, there is in this time period, and we’re in your favorite Imperial time period as well. This is Tiberius. I know time to shine. I
Dr Rad 7:02 know. I know not many people I think know that Tiberius was the emperor in charge when Jesus Christ was
Dr G 7:08 crucified. I think more people would dislike Tiberius if they knew that well. I
Dr Rad 7:12 mean, look, I’m gonna say something controversial here, but to be honest, I don’t think he was deeply involved with what was happening. I think that’s kind of part of the problem.
Dr G 7:21 Look, the man at the top of the pile who’s ostensibly in charge of everything, says it’s not his responsibility. He doesn’t hold the hose.
Dr Rad 7:28 Well, look, I’m just gonna say there are a lot of people that were crucified underneath Roman imperial rule, and even before the Empire existed, and Jesus is just one of them. In my book, controversy, but that’s because I should say I am not a Christian, so
Dr G 7:48 neither am I, although I think this film is quite respectful of religion, a lot of people agreed consider it to be blasphemous and to be a film that is heretical in nature, but they generally don’t touch the story of Jesus at all. In this film, it is very much focused on Brian and his adventures, yeah, and, but I just think is more to do with fanaticism. And, yeah, how people get into sort of cults of belief,
Dr Rad 8:16 exactly? And I just said, I should say, as my own personal perspective, I’m not a Christian. So I’m not coming at this subject with any particular reverence. I know of Jesus because of obviously being raised in a at the time, largely Christian country, and also because the culture around me when I was growing up was largely Christian. And also because, you know Rome, you know the more that you study Rome, the more you come into contact with it. But I wouldn’t identify wouldn’t
Dr G 8:43 identify as a Christian. The deeper get into Roman history, the more you get into early Christianity. That
Dr Rad 8:47 is true Exactly, exactly, anyway. So to give a bit of background to people who might be less familiar with Monty Python, I thought maybe we could give a little bit of a pitted history of Monty Python. So Monty Python are a beloved to most people. I think comedy troupe and they kind of came about in British society. I think a really interesting time, you know, as like the landscape, I think was changing in terms of cultural values, cultural criticism and comedy and that sort of thing. But they’re actually very highly educated men. You know, a lot of them came from degrees at Oxford and Cambridge, where they were studying things like medicine, law and, of course, history. And while they were there, though, they got involved in comedy. Obviously, those particular universities are known to have pretty legendary comedy groups like the footlights, and they ended up getting involved in writing and performing the various comedy shows that were seen as being kind of at the forefront of comedy at the time, like being quite cutting edge. So, for example, Do Not Adjust Your Set, The Frost Report. And at last, The 1948 show. And these were all kind of, a lot of them were kind of sketch shows, and that sort of. Where they were working on things for the BBC. They ended up teaming together because they had encountered each other either at university or they met each other working on these sorts of shows. And they came together as Monty Python’s Flying Circus, where they produced a television show for the BBC between the years of 1969 and 1974 and the men involved, of course, being Graham Chapman, Terry Jones, Terry Gilliam, Eric Idle, John Cleese and Michael Palin. And something to note, perhaps, is that I don’t believe that Monty Python’s Flying Circus as a show was actually screened in the USA until 1974 so it kind of be started to be shown in sort of the mid 70s across the pond as this
Dr G 10:45 interesting. Okay, so they get a late start into the US. Yeah,
Dr Rad 10:49 a little bit of a later start. Yeah, exactly. And they always, I think, therefore, appealed to people who were because of their style of comedy, which was really as it came out of a lot of a lot of these shows, and also was influenced by people like Spike Milligan and his brand of comedy. But it was different in the way that they would set up a sketch. It didn’t have to have a punch line. It was it was absurdist, as you said before, that was kind of their sense of humor. It was very much satire of British society and particularly the British class system, that’s a lot of what their sketches sort of focused on, and that sort of thing when they were making the television show. And so as a result, I suppose, given that they’re coming about, sort of like the late 60s, early 70s as a group, I think we can kind of see how that’s obviously a key time in society where we know that there are people who are starting to be more questioning and critical of the status quo,
Dr G 11:47 and this is the post war generation that are now hitting adulthood, and they’ve got some hard questions to ask about the society that has been built around them in that landscape and as a consequence of those war the 20th century. So,
Dr Rad 12:02 yeah, exactly. So Monty Python as a group started to transition away from television and into making motion pictures together. I don’t think they ever had like necessarily the hugest audience when they were on TV, but they certainly had a very decent sized audience, and they were tending to be more like appealing to like intellectual people or people with a slight intellectual bent, because their comedy is very clever, to be honest. They’ve actually been criticized for, I think, bringing a little bit too much of their sort of university level of education to their types of sketches. But anyway, so they started making movies, so perhaps the biggest hit that most people would have heard of before Life of Brian is, of course, Monty Python and the search for the Holy Grail, a classic. Indeed it is. But a lot of their films still reflected their background in sketch comedy. And the interesting thing about Monty Python, I always thought is that when I watched them as a younger person, I kind of always thought that they were very clever people who were getting together and riffing, you know, and that’s kind of how their stuff came about. But actually, because they were all highly experienced writer performers, and they had that background before they even got together, but then obviously together, they sort of brought that stuff from their background. They actually were extremely, I think, methodical in that they tended to really write things and rehearse them, and it was all very carefully planned so that obviously the humor and the joke that they were aiming for would sort of come through in the final product. So I think they sort of give the impression sometimes that they were improvising, but actually it was all quite planned out, yes.
Dr G 13:40 And I think if you watch, go back and watch Monty Python’s Flying Circus, it is very, I would say today, hit and miss, oh yeah, at the time was uniquely constructed, yes, for things that were emerging in that time period, the idea that they didn’t really care about plot. For instance, no Life of Brian is considered the first film that they do which is plot driven, because while holy grail comes out a few years earlier, and it does have something of a plot, there is also insertions of random sketches and chaotic bits and pieces. So there is a sequence that leads you to understand a plot, but Life of Brian is scripted and does seem to have a very clear narrative arc. Yes,
Dr Rad 14:29 absolutely and but even so, I think, I think that reflects something in their style of writing. So because they were all writer performers, Terry Gilliam, obviously, is more known as he was a performer, obviously, with the group, and he did contribute, but he more contributed, I think, in terms of his animations, which are obviously a huge part of Monty Python’s esthetic. But, yeah, but most of the rest of them, they are writer performers, and I think that the way that they would approach things is that they would go away and just write. You know, they would go. And write. And they tended to sometimes, I think even split off into particular grouping within the wider troupe. Like, I think Graham Chapman and John Cleese worked quite closely together a lot of the time. And I think think Terry Jones and Michael Palin might have worked together a lot of the time, but nonetheless, they would sort of go away and write bits and pieces and then start to come back and sort of compare notes and bring it together. So you can kind of see how, even when they’re writing a narrative film, I think it still kind of starts with, like sketches and scenes that they can use as a basis of something, and then bring it together. Yeah, so Life of Brian, it is universally, I think, accepted. Had it through in this moment where they were asked, after Holy Grail, what was going to be their next project? And they replied, Jesus Christ, lust for glory, which was a pun based on a film that had come out in 1970 pattern, lust for glory. But it did obviously germinate. Yeah, there was the seed
Dr G 15:56 had been planted. One facetious remark, I believe, by Eric Idle, yes, exactly. Then gets expanded into like, oh, maybe we should consider an angle on the life of Jesus and the sorts of things that might be up for critique and lampooning here,
Dr Rad 16:14 yes, exactly. And they actually went away and did their research. And when they did their research, they found that Jesus Christ is actually not terribly funny.
Dr G 16:24 This is a very serious subject matter and not one to be laughed at. Because, actually, as far as I understand it, they came to the conclusion that the message that Jesus is offering is genuinely a good one, yeah, and there’s not much to be laughed at. There, no,
Dr Rad 16:38 no, exactly. And so because they didn’t find that Jesus himself or his message was necessarily anything to be laughed at. They started playing around with ideas of what was happening around him that we could possibly work with. And they had a few ideas. I believe one of them was having a 13th disciple, and Brian would be that particular character who was always the one who unlucky, yeah, he was always the one that missed the miracle. So they played around with that idea, but eventually they decided on the idea of having a parallel life set up for their particular narrative. Thus Brian Cohen was born, and I think the idea as well was that they found, as you said earlier, the way that people engage with religion, particularly the way that people were engaging with various cults at this time, was what was funny, not necessarily like it was easy enough to make fun at people who, you know, take things too far or take things too seriously, rather than the person that the religion is based around. So it’s more the Messiah fervor that they decided to make fun of.
Dr G 17:44 Yeah, yeah. So that real interest in that there, there is some sort of Savior figure that they can be identified, and then, once identified, must be followed, yes, and how you go about demonstrating your loyalty to a messiah. All of this is up for a little bit of a joke in this film. Yes, exactly.
Dr Rad 18:02 So they were able to use the sets from a TV show that had been filmed by Franco zifarelli on Jesus of Nazareth as the basis for their sets, because that’s convenient. That saves money. Yeah, and they decided to film in Tunisia. Legendarily, they were going to be making this film with EMI, but EMI decided that it was way too
Dr G 18:24 blasphemous. Do not want to get in trouble with Christians. Exactly.
Dr Rad 18:29 Basically, there was, like a Roman Catholic friend of like the chief executive, a guy called Lord Bernard del font, yeah, who said this is way too close to blasphemy, or indeed, is blasphemy, and so EMI pulled the financing because Eric idol and George Harrison, yes, that George Harrison were friends. George Harrison helped them to get financing, as well as putting up a million pounds himself. I
Dr G 18:55 kind of love that, like one of the Beatles is involved and is crucial to the story of this film. I love that exactly.
Dr Rad 19:01 And ended up making a small cameo as the owner of the mount in the film. And he did that just because he was a fan of Monty Python, and he just kind of wanted to see what they did with his particular story. And so that’s how they ended up being able to go off to Tunisia and film this particular movie, which happened, I think it was written very quickly. I think it was filmed quite quickly. And this is because, again, as I said to you, like the way that Monty Python do things they do, I think actually plan things out far more than people might realize. As a result, a lot of their stuff was put together relatively quickly for a movie. But
Dr G 19:35 yes, yeah, I think there was a couple of years there of preparation and definitely some delays when EMI pulled out absolutely and then they got back on track after George Harrison got involved. And then
Dr Rad 19:46 so the film is obviously set in the province of Judea, a province of the Roman Empire at this point in time. And obviously it’s meant to be around the 30s, where most of the action takes place, or it. It for the manger nativity scene, obviously, where Brian and Jesus have won right at the beginning.
Dr G 20:06 I mean, it’s still in the same area and still kind of under Roman control at that time as well, although probably the client King Herod is in charge around
Dr Rad 20:16 that time, I was gonna say it’s a bit of historical setting for you all. So Herod, the great, was in charge of Judea. Well, sorry, was in charge of a whole region until about four BCE, which is when he died, which obviously would be around the time that Jesus were born, or maybe a few years before. The Dating is obviously a bit speculative. And Augustus had been in charge at that point in time, and he ended up splitting the kingdom of Herod, the great between his sons. So Herod Antipas was set up in Galilee as the tetrarch, and he would be there until around 39 CE. So just after the events that we’re focusing on transpired, Philip was set up as the Tetrarch of Golan Heights until around 3040, and Herod Archelaus was the leader of Judea at around, well at first, but see, the thing was, I believe that he became a bit of a problematic leader and was removed. And this is, this is what kind of started to stir up trouble in this region, like his removal and the rival factions that existed within Judea at this point in time, which weren’t actually initially, necessarily hugely anti Roman, which is kind of the impression you might get from watching Life of Brian. There certainly were anti Roman groups by the time. But you know, as you, as you travel through, but really the around the time of Jesus, I’m not sure how many anti Roman groups there were. I think there was a lot of more factional, regional fighting going on and rivalry. I
Dr G 21:50 think you’ve got a lot to think about when you get to the fallout of Herod, the great so a client King inserted by Rome in order to ensure stability that is a product of the Roman education system, so coming into an area of which he is local too. And so this is something that the Romans tended to do quite a lot, is that they take families of high significance, politically as hostages, then raise their children in Rome and then send them back out to rule as a friend of Rome in their place. And so trying to secure regions like this, from a Roman perspective, was all about, well, how can we make the local politics work in our favor? Absolutely, yeah. And so I think there is a sense underlying that kind of activity, which suggests that Rome understood that this was a little bit far out of their reach, that they needed somebody on the ground to do Roman work in a Roman way that wouldn’t be completely offensive to the local people, and understood the local cultural norms and things like that. So when we think about this region, and I feel like it stands out for me really pertinently in this time period when we’re recording, having seen what is happening in Palestine and what is happening with modern Israel, and the horrific amount of death that is going on there that these complexities have a very, very long history, absolutely,
Dr Rad 23:25 yeah, yeah, because Judea is roughly modern Israel, Palestine together, like roughly, roughly, yeah, yeah.
Dr G 23:33 It doesn’t map on exactly, but this whole area has a very long history of complex relationships and also a sense in which who has a priority over areas of land exactly. And when you split something like a client Kingdom amongst it was supposed to be four sons, that’s why we’re calling them tetrarchs, but one of them ends up having half of the region. Yeah, that’s a bit of a problem already. And he’s the problematic one that gets removed, right? And then you have to bring in, then Rome’s like, Okay, well, we’ll send in some real we’ll send in Romans. Yes, you know, we’ll have a visual Roman presence in this region of the province of Judea. We’ll turn it into a province. It’s no longer a client king. You guys cannot look after yourselves. We’ve got too much at stake in this area. Yeah, we want to have control of it. We’ll send our own people. And so by the time we get to the really key parts of the narrative that are the Life of Brian, we’re dealing with Pontius Pilate.
Dr Rad 24:38 We are better known to everybody who’s seen Jesus Christ Superstar as Pontius Pilate.
Dr G 24:44 Pontius Pilate, well, I like calling him Pontius Pilate as well, because it makes me think of airplanes. But the Latin is Pontius Pilate, yes.
Dr Rad 24:55 And he was a prefect of Judea from around 26 CE to. Be 36 CE.
Dr G 25:01 So he sees all of the key political things that are going to make the Christians very mad, like
Dr Rad 25:08 there for it all. So he is there underneath, as you said, the Anthro Tiberius is,
Dr G 25:15 keep that in mind, everybody Tiberius was in charge,
Dr Rad 25:20 not gonna deny it good. Now, of course, the background of all of this is that there’s also a very powerful high priest who’s also important to this Jesus story, who’s in power from around 18 CE to 37 CE, and that is Caiaphas. So Caiaphas is someone who will have contact with Pilate as a man on the ground who Pilate will consult when making decisions. And it’s between these two guys that we see the Jesus story unfolding, really, in the sense that Jesus is obviously arrested, he is tried before Caiaphas, and this is something that’s recorded in all four of the Gospel accounts and the Sanhedrin, which is the Jewish religious council Jesus, is given over to the Roman powers by the high priests and their council. And it is the Romans who decide to crucify Jesus Christ, and that’s kind of the background to what is happening. Yeah.
Dr G 26:24 So in this background, what we can see already is that there is complex interrelationships between the political and the religious. And yeah, I think there is a tendency, from a Western perspective, to separate out state and church. Yeah, people like to do that. It is a fallacy. It doesn’t matter where you live. Those things are very entwined. So think about where you live and how the politics operates, and how spiritual beliefs actually have a great deal of influence on how those political actions and beliefs get
Dr Rad 26:58 Yeah, because I believe that Pilate actually gave Jesus to Herod, Antipas and and this particular Herod was like, no, no, I’m
Dr G 27:04 not doing anything about
Dr Rad 27:06 that you deserve.
Dr G 27:08 I don’t want to get involved. Yeah,
Dr Rad 27:10 and Pilate. Therefore, Pilate was like, Okay, fine, crucifixion, it is so, yeah, it is interesting to sort of look at, like the very high level involvement of church and state, as you say, like the Jewish powers in the region in a political sense, Jewish power in the region in a religious sense, and also the Roman powers in the region to this whole thing that’s happening. And
Dr G 27:29 the Romans, For all of their vaunted pragmatism, are a highly religious people themselves. So it’s not like they’re above any of that, no. And it’s just trying to figure out, from their perspective, how can they get the best leverage on a population that they’re seeking to control for their own ends? Yes. So I mean, in short, the answer to the question, What have the Romans ever done for people in the provinces? The answer is,
Dr Rad 27:54 not much. Ouch.
Speaker 1 27:56 It’s it’s devastating, and it is a process of sort of cultural wiping out over time. Yeah, it is imperialism in its very core form. Life of Brian. Definitely engage with that in really interesting ways. So, but
Dr Rad 28:11 before we get into that fully, I guess we have to obviously acknowledge that it is intended to be a satire. I have as a film scholar, I therefore have questions about, obviously, what do you do with something that’s not necessarily trying to be historically accurate, but is set in a historical period? Because, quite frankly, the men involved enjoy dressing up in costume.
Dr G 28:32 Well, you know, they saw an opportunity, and they really took it, yeah, but as
Dr Rad 28:36 you said before, I think this is where we obviously have to acknowledge like their goal is, obviously to produce a comedy that is what they are. They are a comedy troupe. And I kind of think that comedy is obviously one of those mediums that is naturally going to be taking risks, perhaps more than other formats, even tragedy. I think comedy kind of takes risk, and I think it also does, to a certain extent, obviously reflect the time in which it is made, because obviously people are going to find things funny that are relevant to their to their lives. I think kind of the genius of Monty Python is that some of their stuff has stood the test of time and that we still find it really funny. And I will go out and say, right now, I’m a huge fan of life for Brian, I think it is hysterical, in spite of the fact that I can obviously see there are certain things that may not have dated as well as others, but I still think overall, it’s a really funny film. But of course, like any movie, it reflects the time in which it was made and what was considered funny then. And also, I suppose what even is what was considered cutting edge back then. You can, you can see it, obviously, but that’s something I think is true of any film, yes, and
Dr G 29:39 I think you’re totally correct in terms of thinking about like context is so relevant. So there are some jokes in this film that would not fly today, I would think. And there are some moments that I think in hindsight if, for instance, John Cleese knew i. The future when he was making this film. Some of the some of the lines that he’s given in this script that he reproduces, I think, are really they’re foreshadowing of certain things that we see later in his life, and that, I think is quite interesting as well. I’m going to leave that a complete mystery. I’m not going to go.
Dr Rad 30:18 Are you going to tell me what these moments are. Well,
Dr G 30:22 look, let me see how I feel later on, we can return to that subject. So I don’t know about you, but I’ve gone through this film, and I’ve sort of gone chronologically, looking at ways that Romans and Rome is kind of represented, and thinking about what could that mean, and not thinking about necessarily the humor of it, because I don’t know that I, I am not worthy to comment on the humor of the film. And clearly they’re doing something which is ahistorical and a make believe fictional story set in a historical time period which obviously has all sorts of potential issues associated with it. So anything you might say could be dismissed. Yeah, look absolutely. But I have things to say nonetheless. I’m
Dr Rad 31:04 very happy to move in that direction. But before you start, I feel like there’s some filmy stuff that I’m going to use for additional context. So we’ve had some context now about Monty, Python, the group, I think we obviously have the context of the satirical nature of the film. And as you said, the satire is not even necessarily of life in the 30 CE in Judea, Monty, Python, in all of their historical films, and also in their TV show. As we said, it’s about British society at the time. So basically, they are plucking British characters out of the 1970s and plunking them in 30 CE. And you can see this in many, many ways, because that’s basically what all of their characters are. And these are some of my favorite moments, which I’m just going to mention in terms of examples. So you’ve got the liberal bureaucrat in Michael Palin, who’s organizing the crucifixion. Crucifixion, yes, one crossmeres down to the left.
Dr G 31:58 Next. Good, yeah, good, good. That
Dr Rad 32:02 is absolutely one of my most favorite moments in the entire film. You’ve also, of course, got the working class often represented in characters played by Eric Idle. They’re sort of cheeky, pulling everyone’s leg every moment. Oh, and also, again, one of my other favorite aspects is the way that Monty Python makes fun of the working class trade unions in the People’s Front of Judea, as well as the Judeans Popular Front and all those sorts of groups, as well as the style of bureaucrat that you see in like John Cleese’s high priest at the stoning, all of that kind of stuff. As well as the women. Obviously, they’re not huge characters, but they are there as well. And also, of course, in scenes like Sermon on the Mount, you can see it. I’m sure we’ll get into that in a bit of into that in a bit of detail, but in terms of the film context. So one thing I wanted to highlight in particular, because it’s not something that people from outside of Britain or British Dominions might be aware of, is that there is in British comedy a really strong tradition of drag, yes, yeah, as a style of comedy, which people might not be aware of. So I guess I flag that drag has a really big part in British music hall comedy, and that’s gonna say it’s a staple of pantomime. Yes, it’s still exactly and to this day it still is a really big thing. So that’s just something to be aware of in terms of where Monty Python is coming from in the way that they do their comedy and the way that they often have men obviously dressing up as women rather than getting women to play those particular parts. But in terms of feel more generally, I’m sure that anyone who’s listening to this podcast is aware of this. But just in case you’re not, here it goes. Obviously, by the time we get to 1979 when Life of Brian comes out, the golden age of epics has peaked and gone. But those films, I think, are still very much there in that people of that time period, like in the 1970s would be familiar with the big blockbusters of the 1950s in particular few in the early 60s. So for example, your Quo Vadis, you’re Ben Hur those sorts of big biblical epics. And Monty Python was certainly very aware of those films. And so I think there’s sometimes deliberately playing on or playing up to those biblical epics. I know that Terry Jones in particular, like basically sat in a room for a while and re watched a lot of those sorts of movies. And you can see that right from the get go in, that the nativity scene is definitely very similar to the nativity scene that you see in Ben Hur even the way that Terry Gilliam has illustrated the credits. It’s obviously a play on the types of credits that you get in even Spartacus, which is obviously like a weird kind of it’s not a biblical epic, but there are those weird Christian elements to it, as well as some of the other big blockbusters of the time, like Ben Hur and King of Kings. So you can definitely see them playing with that. And even the idea of having someone in this time period leading a parallel life to Jesus is obviously very famous from other movies like Ben Hur. That’s literally what Judah Ben Hur is often up to. You know he’s what I know he’s. His life is intersecting with the Christ as he goes. As we get out of the 1960s though, we’ve obviously seen like the collapse of the studio system in America, and we start to see slightly more irreverent films coming out about Ancient Rome in general. So you have in 1966 movies like A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. And as we move into the 1970s because the studio system has been truly dismantled by then, there is this brief period where you get a lot of, I suppose, what we would call more realistic films, like the audience wanting to see things that aren’t maybe so stage managed and escapist in nature, things that are more gritty, more about real life and real problems and that sort of thing. So you can obviously think of these are American examples, but you can think of movies like, you know, the godfather and Midnight Cowboy, Easy Rider, films that are more reflective, I suppose, of 60s and 70s culture in multiple facets, films that are dealing more with issues like race. Again, I am thinking of America here, but the influence, obviously, is out there that that’s the way film is going, as a sort of context for Life of Brian, gritty realism, yeah. Anyway, just that, I’d sort of say that the other thing that we can obviously see that’s very much influencing this film, in the credits, anyway, is James Bond, Brian. His name is Brian.
Dr G 36:22 Yeah. I thought it was a great Shirley Bassey. Impression
Dr Rad 36:24 it is. I actually thought, I actually checked, because I was like, Oh, my god, is this Shirley? I
Dr G 36:28 don’t think it is. It wasn’t, no, it
Dr Rad 36:29 was like, some 16 year old. Oh,
Dr G 36:31 wow, yeah, yeah, no, but I picked up that reference straight away. I was like, Oh yes, I see where this is going. But I do like starting with the opening credits. Yeah, there’s a few things that I quite enjoyed about them, in terms of nods to Rome. Some of them are the Christian references. So we get the giant head of Constantine, which is smashing through everything. He won’t be alive for another few 100 years. So he is out of place. Good for him, though, we also see the Mouth of Truth, the bocca della Verita, yeah. Okay, you know, just like an odd, quirky thing. And the original purpose of that piece is unclear, and so it’s set up in Rome, and most famously in Roman Holiday. I
Dr Rad 37:22 was gonna say, I think I can tell you what the purpose is. The purpose is to have a delightful moment between Audrey Hepburn and Gregory Peck in a reality comedy,
Dr G 37:31 Roman Holiday. Everybody, but that popularity of that particular stone, which we think might be the head of Neptune, maybe, but it has the open mouth, and it looks a bit like a theatrical mask as well. So the identification is not at all clear, and people line up to stick their hand in the thing and whatnot. And we think it might be related to the Temple of Hercules, which is across the way. Okay, yeah, just across the square. But the fact that it’s there, I think is cute. I mean, it’s ancient, but we don’t know from when, but it’s a very visual symbol of Rome. Yes, well, so I imagine this is something that,
Dr Rad 38:07 again, particularly by this time period, because, again, Roman Holiday we came out in the middle of the 1950s
Dr G 38:12 Yeah, exactly. So this is something that, like, even if you didn’t know much about Rome, you’d never been there, you would have recognized it. Presumably you get some nods also to the Arch of Constantine as it’s going along. And
Dr Rad 38:23 I was like, wait a minute, he was the first Christian.
Dr G 38:27 And then the other part that I really enjoyed, and I’m sorry, Tiberius, but it’s the Prima Porta Augustus just whacked in there, which is on trend. That’s fine. You could easily have run into a statue like that in this period, maybe not in Judea. To me, this is,
Dr Rad 38:45 again, this is like, one of those things where I’m like, okay, yes, if we’re being super accurate a lot of these things, you’re like, anachronistic, not the right setting at all. But it doesn’t matter with Monty Python, because they are anarchic in the way that they play with things. And so I kind of feel like it’s one of those things where it’s like, well, of course,
Dr G 39:02 well, I think that’s fine actually, because one of the things that I think comes across in this, and you’ve touched on it earlier, yeah, is that because of their university education, their humor is both absurdist and for some considered too highbrow, like the references are just out of touch. You have to have already known a whole bunch of things to get them, which might be the very reason why you and I quite enjoy these kinds of films, because it’s like, they’re kind of full of little easter eggs for people who have studied history and are aware of some of this stuff. Because I’m like, I understand that these things are that are out of touch, but I also recognize them, and I’m excited to have seen them, and I know that at some point they had to decide what was going to be in there. Yeah, you don’t become an illustrator and an animator without making really clear decisions about what’s included and what’s not included, and so those choices really matter. And I love the way that this opening credit sequence sets us up really nicely for what is both. Both a historical light touch for people who get it and absolutely bonkers for people who enjoyed the Absurdism of it.
Dr Rad 40:07 Yes, yeah, and that’s the thing, like Spartacus credits are so memorable with all the bits and pieces of sculpture and statuary. I mean, it was such a big film, people who were seeing this would mostly, I think, be very familiar with that particular thing. And so, yeah, the way that they take that and then twist it, yeah.
Dr G 40:29 This leads me to, I don’t really have much to say about the nativity scene, like, it’s fine, it does its job, but I was focusing on, like, Where do I see Romans? And so then I end up at Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, I
Dr Rad 40:39 would say I love the Nativity in the way that she’s like, well, what is he there?
Dr G 40:45 They’re like, Oh no. They take back all the gifts, and she’s like,
Dr Rad 40:47 Oh, wait, yeah, and the Virgin Mandy, I enjoy it. That’s, that’s, I suppose, one of those moments. So where we I can highlight something that would be considered problematic by these standards, but wasn’t considered maybe as problematic in the day is that there is a brief moment of blackface in that particular scene. There is. It’s very brief. And obviously it’s one of those things where, knowing Monty Python, it’s one of those things where I think it’s just because they play all the characters at the time, they wouldn’t have thought about it, whereas it might be different these days, obviously, in terms of both the makeup of the group, potentially, but also in how they would handle that kind of thing. But it’s one of those things where you could easily miss it because of the way that they’ve got the three wise men, yeah,
Dr G 41:29 the way the costumes are done. Yeah, yes, there is black face. So content warning, not ideal, to be honest, I’d
Dr Rad 41:35 actually never noticed it before, because their faces are so covered up, but because I was paying more attention, I suppose this time, I suddenly realized that, of course, it’s one of the Monty Python group who’s playing the three wise men. I just I’d never even thought about it before, because my attention is always on the Virgin panty.
Dr G 41:52 So Jesus’s servant on the mount. This is like the one time in this film where we we clock Jesus, the man himself.
Dr Rad 41:58 And I will note, it’s actually very unusual to have Jesus Christ shown directly in that when you think about again films like Ben Hur, they tend to avoid it just like a shaft of sunlight, yeah, like, like a hand, or, like, you see the back of his head, or something like that. A lot of these, he’s
Dr G 42:18 like a dentist. We can’t show his face on television.
Dr Rad 42:22 Nine out of 10 dentists recommend, but I don’t, because they’re owned by a company that does on animals. It happens, but it’s unusual, although, of course, again, there was kind of like a bit of a slew of Jesus stuff that was coming out at this point in time. The biggest hit, obviously, being Jesus Christ Superstar. So superstar. So it just depends what you’re looking at, I suppose. But Jesus Christ Superstar is something that people would have seen, obviously, in the theater. Okay?
Dr G 42:50 So he does make his appearance, and he’s going to increasingly make his appearance in cultural representation from this point onwards as well. So we do get to get a glimpse of Jesus. He is saying things that he is purported to have said, so they don’t change his script. But the real focus of this whole scene is what is essentially British class, absolutely infighting at its best, where right at the back of the crowd there is some quibbling going on about what is being said and then how it’s being said, and then people starting to insult each other in various particular ways. And you can tell who’s supposed to be the upper class, and you can tell who’s supposed to be middle class, and you can tell who’s supposed to be working class from the ways in which they engage with each other. Yeah,
Dr Rad 43:39 so we’ve got Mr. And Mrs. Gregory the upper class rather, rather.
Dr G 43:45 And I think what’s great is that there’s a lot of mishearing of the of the sermon itself. Blessed are the cheese makers? Okay, we got
Dr Rad 43:53 Mr. And Mrs. Big nose, who are meant to be like the up and coming middle class and then Mr. Cheeky working class. So in the bickering, as you say, there’s the mishearing of stuff, but funnily enough, it actually highlights something which is hugely relevant to historians, which is, where did the Gospels get their material? How reliable are eyewitnesses? Yeah,
Dr G 44:13 and this is a huge challenge, because as far as we can date the Gospels. So these are the four books which are considered to be interconnected with each other and accredited to different people, but seem to have been written together. Perhaps the earliest date that people can put to them is probably about the 70s and 80s. CE.
Dr Rad 44:34 I think even, I think even 60s has been given for one of them, just one of them. I think, I think Mark from memory, which
Dr G 44:40 we’re talking Well, after, oh, yeah, like a good generation or so
Dr Rad 44:44 absolutely. And that’s the earliest, as you say, in most people, earliest that
Dr G 44:48 people were willing to accept based on the evidence. Yeah. So if you can mishear things when you’re at the venue, in the moment, I mean, just think about when you’re out and about or you. Go somewhere and you’re like, Excuse me, or you’re like, you turn to the person they say that all the time, or you’re at an event and you turn to somebody like, what did they just say? And the amount of misreporting and the mishearing that happens, generally speaking, the idea that there’s some sort of coherency to these texts is perhaps the biggest question we should have
Dr Rad 45:20 absolutely and I mean, even I’ve actually read. I was reading in preparation for this. Some people who identify as Christian, who teach this kind of material, as in, like, teach about historical Jesus and that sort of thing. And even they were saying that Life of Brian also kind of highlights one of those things, which is, how on earth were the three wise men supposed to have followed a star to figure out what tiny little manger somebody was in. There obviously are elements to these stories which don’t make like a logical sense, and that’s not necessarily what they’re obviously meant to be doing, just the same way that life of Ryan isn’t meant to be providing a super historically accurate version of Judea. What do you mean? This
Dr G 46:03 is clearly what was going on. I mean, there are Roman soldiers in attendance at this sermon. So I think for me, this was the key part of the reason why I noted down this scene at all. Yeah, because they’re standing around and they’re just sort of glancing over their shoulder and shaking their heads while the class warfare plays itself out in the background, and they only start to intervene when it comes to a physical altercation, when people start trying to punch each other, and then they’re like, Okay, break it up. But
Dr Rad 46:32 I think that the hilarious thing, of course, is we start to see, obviously, that whole idea of it’s what people make of it that’s funny in that when they think they’ve heard Blessed are the cheese makers. They say, well, obviously they don’t just mean the cheese makers. They mean manufacturers of any sort of dairy product.
Dr G 46:51 It’s not meant to be taken literally,
Dr Rad 46:52 yeah, and all the classic ones, where we get a lot of classic lines, you know? Oh, Blessed are the meek. Oh, that’s nice, because they get so little, I have such a hard time.
Dr G 47:03 From there, I jump ahead to the stoning scene, which I think might be the next scene. Anyway, it
Dr Rad 47:07 is because, of course, the virgin Mandy and Brian, they decide,
Dr G 47:11 they decide to leave the sermon of the mountain because it is getting out of hand in the background with the fights that are happening. So they decide that they’re going to attend the local stoning instead. And wouldn’t you know that there’s a whole bunch of bureaucratic rules around Stoney, and it’s really quite unfortunate, because women are forbidden to participate. And what this has led to is an underground market for fake beards so women can dress up as men and then attend stonings. And I suppose the part of the humor here, which is, in a way, quite parallel to the way that ancient humor operated as well, if we think about Greek comedy, sure is that we’ve got Monty Python, a male comedic troupe dressing up as women who are dressing up as men to attend stoning. So the layers upon layers of this kind of the drag, meta drag moments that are happening here, I
Dr Rad 48:14 think it allows the voices to be funnier, because then they can do the whole high pitched imitation of a woman. Are
Dr G 48:21 they ready with women here. Apologies. I mean, if you’re listening, I mean, we’re obviously just doing the film as we’re doing it as we analyze. So this puts me in mind of the way that ancient Greek comedy often sets up some of these things, and certainly, if we think about English traditions of comedy as well, this is very much something that Shakespeare would have lent into as well. Definitely the way in which characters try to hide their identity, by assuming the dress of another gender and then having to maybe go into hiding again, all of this kind of thing we have seen. It’s very English and in that sense, also very ancient. So I quite enjoyed that aspect of this scene. I note that there are some Roman soldiers there as well. They don’t seem to be quite as impressive as some of the other Centurions. They seem to be more low level infantry, and they just watch as the crowd eventually turns on the priest who is leading the stoning,
Dr Rad 49:25 which, and this is, I think, one of the things that I sort of lighted on as being the funny moment, because I love John Cleese’s priest. But again, the humor is so much that he is meant to be a kind of British bureaucrat slash schoolmaster type of figure in the way that he deals with the crowd, oh, there’s always one, and making sure that rules are being followed and that sort of thing. The way that he is dressed is very anachronistic. The idea of a stoning actually even taking place, is very debatable in terms of historical accuracy. It might seem like something you. SPECT in a biblical era film, but it is actually really uncertain whether such things would have been taking place in Jesus’s time. There’s like these weird references where it’s almost like they’re talking about stoning, but it’s almost like, are they saying that zonings actually happen? Or is this or are they just making a reference, because could maybe happen. It’s very unclear, but yeah, definitely highly debatable, but the fact that he is wearing something that’s so overly religious, again, kind of taps into criticisms that are made of certain Jewish groups in this society, of trying to advertise their piety, perhaps by wearing particular types of clothing. So I believe the Pharisees are sometimes critiqued by other Jewish people for overly advertising their dedication to religion and the type of clothing that they wear. So even though it’s anachronistic, it kind of potentially is highlighting that about this particular character. Yeah,
Dr G 50:55 and certainly, I think when we think about religious dress, there is a sense in the ancient world and even today, that the visual distinction is one of the ways in which you establish the authority of the Church, regardless of which church it might be. So style of dress and being visually recognizable from a distance is super important. And John Cleese is a tall man, and he’s wearing a very tall hat in this scene, which makes him even taller than he needs to be. So he definitely does stand out. So I’m
Dr Rad 51:25 guessing that your next scene that you liked was, of course, the children’s matinee.
Dr G 51:29 So in the lead up to that, though, yeah, I mean, yes, definitely the children’s matinee at the arena, which is a horrifying sort of take on, like, what is gladiatorial combat and the games of the hunt and things like that, as if they might be okay for children while people are dragging bits of meat out of the arena. But important in the lead up to this moment is the moment that Brian understands that his father is a Roman Ah,
Dr Rad 51:55 yes, okay, see, I didn’t think you’d talk about this one because there are no Roman characters present until, but till the end, it does become
Dr G 52:04 important later on, so as a Roman reference, but also like that happens in their home. So they and there is a Roman there. That’s true, yeah, they return home from the stoning and find that there is a Roman Centurion in their house. Brian’s bit put out by that, and his mom’s like, well, you know, maybe you shouldn’t be so worried about those sorts of things, because maybe your dad was a Roman so this is like an earth shattering revelation for Brian to learn that his father was a man called Nautius Maximus, and he understood understands in that moment that perhaps his life isn’t what he thought it was. It certainly calls into question, what has ever what was happening in the nativity scene with the Virgin mangy? Yes,
Dr Rad 52:54 well, even his name. I mean, I didn’t actually know this, but the last name Cohen, whilst it is quite a common name. Now, for people who have Jewish backgrounds, it actually indicates priest like, if you have the last name Cohen, your ancestors, presumably at one point, were from one of the priestly families. So it’s obviously not only a common Jewish name nowadays, which I’m sure is what they were playing on a little bit there, but it also has this connection to a very special group within that Jewish community that were setting this movie in and Brian was just chosen because, apparently that was the name that the Monty Pythons like to give to anyone who was seen as being very ordinary and kind of a bit stupid. Well,
Dr G 53:34 his character does live up to that in some respects. So he finds out his father is Nautius Maximus, and this puts him into a little bit of a tailspin. He makes a quip about his nose being Roman, and me like that. Explains
Dr Rad 53:53 I’m a Hebe, a Kike, a Red Sea pedestrian.
Dr G 53:58 And so, you know, he has this realization which frustrates him. It doesn’t really he doesn’t seem fixated beyond the fact that he’s noticed that there’s a Roman Centurion there because he wanders off because he’s now he’s got his own existential issues to deal with. But it turns out that his mother is also entertaining the Roman troops in a sexual way, perhaps, and she does make the point that they perhaps owe more to the Romans than he realizes, yeah, and he doesn’t seem to clock what that means, no, but the audience is allowed to see through that sort of veil and get a sense that this is a difficult life for her, yes, and that the Romans are part of the oppressive structures that she is navigating personally, while the province of Judea is navigating at large. Yes, absolutely. So yes, that leads us to the arena my favorite.
Dr Rad 54:53 So the subtitle children’s matinee is obviously, again, a play on something from British culture. Yeah. Dear the children’s madness that we provided pantomimes and theater and that sort of thing. I actually love this, though, because you do tend to get, I think, quite glorified, obviously, images of the arena in your more traditional epics. And this is kind of looking at, well, what happened when it was just an ordinary Saturday?
Dr G 55:21 And it’s like the arena isn’t particularly full. There are Brian’s there trying to sell some snacks, which, uh, he’s told that they’re just Roman tat.
Dr Rad 55:32 But again, even, like, even the types of things that he’s trying to sell, like the the wolf sniffles and that kind of stuff that, again, is kind of a play on the main evidence that we have of Roman food, which is typically by the elite, for the elite. So they are these ridiculous delicacies that we have preserved for us. And we, when we look at the recipe thing, we’re like, Oh my God. What you know the Romans love to think of all these new kind of delicacies, which, similarly to these days, I suppose, had to do with what was rare, what was hard to procure, and and so they did kind of eat sometimes things that we would look at as being absurd, but that would have been the very, very elite who were all caught up in this desire to impress one another. The average person would have been eating far more basic but
Dr G 56:23 I do like the idea that it’s playing into the idea of stadium culture and the sort of snacking that goes on there. But the arena is like the original Stadium in this sense. And so it makes sense that if you’re there and you’re out in the sun and you’ve been there for a few hours, you’re probably peckish, yeah, it would not be beyond imagination that nobody would be trying to sell you
Dr Rad 56:45 some just maybe not quite the fair that Brian is selling. But yeah, this
Dr G 56:49 is a super important scene for Brian, though, because it’s when he finally gets to meet the People’s Front of Judea love, and he’s already seen one of the members, at least when he was at the sermon of the mount, and because he spied Judith off in the distance, and was kind of like, and she was engaged in a very sort of intellectual conversation with another member of the group, yes,
Dr Rad 57:14 where they ridiculing my Jesus.
Dr G 57:18 And he’s seen her, he’s taking a look at her and being like, I’ve got a crow. And so it’s in this moment that he gets to meet her, because members of this group are attending the arena, mostly to criticize it and to lampoon people that they’ve exiled from their group or have defected to a different group. Spears, all of these people seem to be swilling around this idea that in order to get out from under the oppression of the Romans, they need to find a way to eliminate the powerful structures at play that are ruining the province so they can claim it back as their own.
Dr Rad 57:57 And this is the kind of thing that I like about Monty Python, because they’re making fun of every single class that they come across. So they make fun of the working class, they make fun of the middle class, they make fun of the upper class like no one is off limits because it’s really about institutions and authority that they are. That’s who they’re taking aim at really a lot of the time. So but I do, I just love their take on the trade unions. You’re like, you have to really hate the Romans to join our group, but I do,
Dr G 58:25 all right, we’re in and so this is the moment that Brian, you know, joins one of these groups, and he’s led into a new world. And this is on the back of him finding out about his own Roman heritage. So he’s running away from that in some respects, and fighting against it. And can he prove to himself, you know, how loyal he is to the local cause? Yeah, and
Dr Rad 58:50 this is, this is where we get into that interesting conversation, I suppose, about the presence of Rome in this area. So it’s hard to completely, I think, understand Jesus’s death at this distance, particularly because, as we talked about, the Gospels are written sometime after and they’ve obviously got a very particular agenda in mind. Even the Roman sources that mention Jesus Christ are again written a couple generations later, decades later. So whilst I definitely believe that there was a person who identifies as Jesus, it’s really hard to know I think exactly what was happening, but I don’t necessarily think that, as I said to before, I think it’s there’s often a lot of factionalism in this area, and there’s a lot of internal tension. And actually, I feel like it’s some time later that we get more anti Roman, more widespread anti Roman sentiment. And even then, it’s not universal and it’s not unified. I’m sort of thinking of in the sort of 60s and 70s, where we get the first udayan revolt. That’s when we tend to see really anti Roman sentiment springing up. But it’s not universal in Jesus’s lifetime. I’m not really sure. And I’m not an expert in this period, obviously, but I’m not really sure how widespread the anti. Roman sentiment would have been. It flares up a little bit under Caligula, because Caligula is a bit of a douche towards towards certain things that they hold dear. But otherwise, I’m really not, I’m not sure.
Dr G 1:00:09 I think this gets into the broader question of the history of the whole region, and so I’m not going to give too much away about something that comes up later in the film. I think we’re almost there, yeah, sure. But having thought about like we think about the layered history of this region, yes. And this area, broadly, what is now known as the Middle East, is considered, in many respects, cradle of civilization. This is where we understand agrarian culture to develop in a profound way. What about 6000 6000 7000 years ago? So this is an area that has always been populated. It has always had a multitude of societies. And this group that sits along this eastern edge of the Mediterranean are known for being traders. So the Punic peoples come from the Phoenician peoples. Yeah, the Phoenicians are just to the north of this region. But it’s not the case that the people to the south are not also traders. They are plenty of archeological evidence to suggest that there are social structures at play, that there is trading at play, that they are very involved in the broader Mediterranean community in which they sit. The Romans are just another player within this in that respect. So the idea that the Romans are necessarily terrible depends very much on how the Romans are behaving,
Dr Rad 1:01:44 and sometimes they can be behaving in ways that works for the people that live in that region.
Dr G 1:01:50 And in this time period, we are not yet at the conquest of the area by the Romans. No, we are certainly at a period of high levels of influence by Rome? Yeah, definitely. They’re doing some imperialism, for sure, sure, but they are not necessarily trying to wipe people out. No, and they do not have full control of this area, no,
Dr Rad 1:02:13 and that’s exactly it, like there’s and they’re not going to for quite some time. No, that’s what I mean. Like, I feel like there’s it. There’s more tension between various groups in this area. And I don’t just mean within Judea. I mean also more wider
Dr G 1:02:27 this whole area is, is complex already, the part of which we suffer from, I think, as historians who specialize in Rome, is that we are not Near Eastern specialists, and there are Near Eastern specialist, and we should get some of them on the show. We should talk about that region, because there is a lot going on here, and this, this film, is kind of touching on some of it. And I think maybe inadvertently, because I’m not sure how much Monty Python I know about some of I
Dr Rad 1:03:00 think they did a lot of research, but it’s the kind of material that they would have access to in the 1970s it’s obviously different scholarship, different time, and I don’t know how deep and they were influenced, definitely, I think, by more medieval things as well, like medieval passion plays as well as, obviously contemporary stuff. But even, I think, in terms of understanding this area, one of our major sources to sort of focus on relations between the people of this area and the Romans is, of course, Josephus. And Josephus is notoriously a hugely problematic source because he was someone who was captured by the Romans, or so he claims, during the first Judean revolt, and ends up becoming associated with flavians, because they are, of course, involved in the more troublesome time in Judea, with the first the destruction of the temple. Yeah, they are, and then they be, but then at around the same time that that happens, they obviously also become the next Imperial dynasty, everyone which allows them to allows them to control narrative somewhat. And Josephus is their client. He becomes like a Freedman of their family. And so his loyalties are all over the shop, all over the shop, and it’s so complex, like, it’s not to say that he’s like, Oh well, I’m I’m with the Romans. Now, he definitely doesn’t, but it’s so hard to tease out at any one moment what is going on in Josephus account of things, yeah,
Dr G 1:04:26 and his work is really important for our understanding of what is happening in this sort of Flavian period. And again, it’s that sort of thing where it’s like our sources just outside of the timeline, yes, that we’re interested in, like he does refer back to this period of history in the region totally, but it’s also the case that he wasn’t necessarily compos mentis there, no,
Dr Rad 1:04:49 and he’s also Jewish. He’s not Christian, so Jesus is going to mean something different to him. Anyways, yeah, it’s just a very, very complicated source to use. And. Yeah. Well, we
Dr G 1:05:01 love our complexities. We do. This leads us to the Latin scene.
Dr Rad 1:05:05 Okay. Now this is a scene that I laugh at whilst crying, as I have had so many, so many issues of Latin over the years.
Dr G 1:05:13 So I think one of the things that came out maybe on Twitter a few years ago, was like, you can tell the difference between a classic student and an ancient history student from their favorite from their favorite scene in Life of Brian. Yes, because the classic students will pick the Latin scene and the ancient historians will pick, well, What have the Romans ever done for us 100%
Dr Rad 1:05:33 and I am 100% true to that. The What have the Romans ever done for us is my favorite, but
Dr G 1:05:38 the Latin scene really does some special things. And I think it does some special things for classic students in particular, because it basically replicates the British education system for teaching classics to students at that time. Yes, yeah, in that moment. And so the play seems to be that Brian is put up to this moment by the People’s Front of Judea. They’re like, You got to prove your loyalty you want to be part of this group, you know, you’ve got to go and write a message on the Roman palace. Romans go home. Yeah. So Romanos
Dr Rad 1:06:12 ahaan rocks
Dr G 1:06:17 up and he’s he’s painting in big red letters. Romanes eunt domus and it’s kind of like twilight. He doesn’t realize that some Roman soldiers are marching up behind him, and they kind of watch him, and then they start correcting his grammar. They’re like, people call the Romans, They go to the house? and I was like, What are you doing? And then it goes through all of this thing where they’re trying to basically inculcate the rules, you know, like, you know, will it be accusative, you know, to place, it’s the locative, you know, blah, blah, blah, on all of these sort of like crazy grammatical terms, which you would only ever encounter if you had had to study Latin. Yes, it ends up being that they end up changing the phrase to Romani ite domum. Romans go home, and then they tell him that he has to paint it 100 times, which is one of those sort of classics of like the school system, where it’s kind of like you now have this really repetitive, boring task on your hands, and he does do it, like he takes him all night, but he Brian finishes this task. But you do get that sense that the play here is on the importance of form over everything else. This idea then gets linked to this Roman fetish for mindless punishment, which is something that runs through this whole film as well. And then as soon as Brian completes this task, it’s like there’s been a changeover of the group, and new guards show up. Don’t realize that this has been a task that has been set by the Romans to Brian. Look at what he’s written on the wall, and it’s huge, and it’s all over it, and then he has to run away very, very quickly to get himself out of trouble,
Dr Rad 1:07:58 yeah. Which I think, as you say, this perfectly highlight the educational background of the Monty Python group and the way that they would have had to study Latin because of the type of school they went to, which, again, is kind of interesting, because in the 60s, there had been a big shake up of the British education system, and there were definitely people that by the time that They, I suppose, were going through their education, there were definitely schools that were breaking with the tradition of having to learn Latin, and that was maybe seen as something a little bit old fashioned. But the Monty Python group, because the nature of their education, definitely would have had to learn Latin and learn it this way. And in fact, it wasn’t just trying to think when they would have been at university. I suspect that for a lot of them, they actually would have had to have studied Latin in order to get into the universities
Dr G 1:08:45 that they went to. So I assume so as well. And it’s pretty clear from the way that this scene is done, that they understand Latin, yes.
Dr Rad 1:08:52 And you’re like, okay, that I never will,
Dr G 1:08:56 and that they have been educated in very particular way about it. Yes, exactly. So the idea that they’re giving that experience to Roman soldiers in itself is quite funny, absolutely. Yeah, so the People’s Front of Judea, my favorite. I don’t know if you’re gonna like what I have to say about them. So these are just one of the many groups, the PJ, PFJ, as they’re known, one of the many groups seeking to liberate the area from Roman control and oppression, which
Dr Rad 1:09:27 is what I think I find so funny about it, because it taps into what I think is accurate to this period. The factionalism might not have been in this exact way, and it might not necessarily been directly anti Roman, but I think the factionalism is kind of oddly accurate.
Dr G 1:09:39 Yeah, definitely. And I think we can see this in many movements where it’s like, you can have broadly similar goals and yet be pursuing it in very different ways. Absolutely, yes. And certainly there are times and I think this happens, particularly you see it in online culture, where the discussion is around. And leftist groups being more challenging to each other than they are to tackling the cause itself. Yes, and this kind of thing can be a real hindrance to getting things done. Absolutely. The People’s Front of Judea sits in this category really quite nicely. Yeah, they spend a lot of time talking and writing notes and minutes and whatnot. They have a plan to kidnap the wife of Pontius Pilate. That’s their plan. They’re going to enter through the underground heating system the hypercoast. Good on them. I quite like that. So you know, they’re playing into like, what do we know about what the Romans had? And then we get to What have the Romans ever done for us? Now I
Dr Rad 1:10:41 think I think I know what you’re going to say about this scene. Wow, I’m
Dr G 1:10:44 going to say it, and then you can tell me whether your assumption was correct. Okay, this is the classic justification of imperialism. I
Dr Rad 1:10:51 knew you were going to say that. Yeah, you’re right. It’s not accurate to the situation in this area. It’s
Dr G 1:10:57 not accurate to the situation, and it’s hugely problematic. And what we have is the English playing the oppressed people and then selling back to them the idea that they were civilized by the arrival of their oppressors. This is British imperialism writ large in a single scene, which is ironic in its placement in this film. And I don’t know that Monty Python necessarily are aware of it. Well,
Dr Rad 1:11:29 I think they probably are now. I think the thing is that, again, this is where context, I think, is important. I think what people broadly would have thought about Rome and the Roman Empire back in that time when they were making this film, is that they would have looked at Rome as the great civilisers As much as we might question that critique it now that’s with the benefit of over 40 years of hindsight and new scholarship and also people looking into things from the point of view of the people that do live in the provinces, looking at the archeology that comes out of that area, not privileging the Roman perspective. You know, there’s a lot that has happened in the last 50 years of academia that has enabled us to look at that scene and recognize that it’s not accurate that the Romans did not invent aqueducts, that there were roads before they came, and all of that kind of stuff. What I wouldn’t like. I obviously haven’t looked into it in the sense of saying there definitively was no academia out there that could possibly have disproven this. But I do think that I know enough to say that widely speaking, I feel like the point of view would have been way more positive in terms of imperialism, and Roman imperialism in particular, but that’s, that’s the way I kind of look at it. Yeah, I
Dr G 1:12:48 think there’s an interesting parallel to be drawn between the way that British imperialism justifies itself and the way that we now have British people justifying Roman imperialism within the context of this film. So I think that’s an interesting point of note. So the things that get mentioned as benefits of what the Romans have done for us, aqueducts, roads, medicine, sanitation, irrigation, education, wine, public baths and law and order. Now, objectively speaking, all of these are incorrect. Just as a point of note, all of these things predated Rome in the area,
Dr Rad 1:13:31 and Rome was not particularly sanitized. I mean, like sure they would have, they had certain aspects of their culture which may have been more hygienic than otherwise at that time in other places. But certainly, when you think about things like the bars, I think they would have just been germ soup. I was
Dr G 1:13:49 gonna say, are you calling into question my beloved cloacker maxima, yeah,
Dr Rad 1:13:53 sure. They had certain things like the aqueducts, which they adopted. I mean this. And this is the thing about the Romans. I think the thing about the Romans I think the thing about the Romans is that a little bit like America, I suppose, oh, that parallel again, they’re very good, I think, at adopting things and then rolling them out. They adopt things and because they ended up having control over wide amounts of territory, they can organize, like mass manpower, for example, or whatever, in order to build these things or create this infrastructure. It’s not that they came up with the original idea, and it may not be that they’re the only ones doing it, but once they’re in charge, I feel like they are relatively good sometimes at rolling it out when it’s in in their interest to do so to like, have an aqueduct or have a theater? Yeah.
Dr G 1:14:41 So I mean, notably, if we’re going to give the Romans any credit in this region, and we can, I suspect it is the fact that under Herod, there was an aqueduct constructed into the port city of Caesarea, Maritima, Caesar’s maritime port. And the reason for that is that there was no access to fresh water at that location, and there was still evidence of that ancient aqueduct, which was then sort of enhanced a few generations later. So that exists. So, yes, I mean, we could say that, you know, they brought some aqueducts, yeah, but they
Dr Rad 1:15:19 didn’t. They didn’t invent aqueduct. They didn’t invent paved rows. They did not invent wine. Law and order. I certainly did not
Dr G 1:15:26 invent wine. And arguably, it’s more likely that this region invented wine and irrigation. This is
Dr Rad 1:15:35 what I mean. I think the Romans are kind of like the inheritors, in the sense that they’re bringing the infrastructure, I suppose it’s in like, the ability to act on it at that moment in time, yeah.
Dr G 1:15:45 And so I suppose this is the idea of the increasingly militaristic influence of Rome in this area, yeah. And the fact that they’ve decided to go in, and people have not yet been able to throw them out or to throw them off. We
Dr Rad 1:16:00 obviously don’t know what would have been here if the Romans weren’t here. That’s not to say that the people in this area were incapable of doing such projects without the Romans. I just think it’s the Roman army, Roman slavery. Those systems mean that you can potentially have these large scale building projects, as sad as that is,
Dr G 1:16:24 indeed. And so they the PFJ decide that they’re going to enter through the Caesar Augustus Memorial. Sewer, excellent. And I do really love the scene where we get the footage of them entering, and it’s like they come through a floor mosaic lifting up a little leaf that’s covering somebody’s private parts. The Romans wouldn’t have bothered to have a leaf there in the mosaic. They would have just left it open. So that was a cute little nod, I think as well.
Dr Rad 1:16:52 See, this is where I love the kind of non Roman stuff, in a sense. So I love the fact that they encounter rival groups and they start fighting each other rather than concentrating on the task.
Dr G 1:17:03 Oh, yeah. So, I mean, the PFJ managed to run into this rival liberation group who have happy to dance people front, yeah, who have happened to have the same plan to execute on the same evening. Absolutely hilarious. And they all managed to kill each other inside the villa, and Brian’s the last one left standing when the Roman soldiers notice that anybody has infiltrated.
Dr Rad 1:17:28 And this, of course, brings us, I suppose, to one of the most notorious scenes, which is the Pontius Pilate scene. Oh,
Dr G 1:17:35 we’re calling it that, are we? I call it the biggest sticker scene. That’s right, yeah. I really liked this scene. I feel like I have an academic paper to write, because this scene is full of frescoes.
Dr Rad 1:17:48 Ah, okay, that’s what caught your eye. See, I was, as usual, very focused on Michael Palin, who is probably my favorite of the pythons. He is very good, and this is perhaps with his loose
Dr G 1:18:01 one of his star turns in this film as the most objectionable Roman, Pontius Pilate. And so Brian, having been arrested by the Roman guards and doing a bit of a tour of the jail, gets brought before Pontius Pilate himself. And this is where, in order to try and avoid punishment, Brian reveals his half Roman identity, yes. And he’s like, Well, my father is Nautius Maximus, at which point the Roman guard is like, convinced that this is a joke name. And Pontius Pilate is like, what are you talking about? And this leads the guard to say, well, you know, it’s a, it’s a joke name, like Biggus Dickus, or, yeah, and Pontius Pilate is like, Excuse me, because Dickus is a great friend of mine. And this scene is just, it plays out for like, you know, a good while. Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:18:56 it’s the accent that sells it as well, the way that Pontius Pilate has this absurd list. And of course, when we eventually meet him, bigger stickers will have an even more exaggerated speech impediment. And the lyric thing, of course, is that nobody can understand him, not even the Romans.
Dr G 1:19:12 Yeah, so people keep responding back to him as if he’s asked a different question. Which,
Dr Rad 1:19:16 Look, I get that because of someone who’s hard of hearing. I do do that sometimes, where I respond completely inappropriately, because I have 100% miss her what someone said to
Dr G 1:19:24 me, the joys of this podcast. So what is happening in the background with these frescoes is that they can be cross referenced quite distinctly to frescoes from the villa of mysteries. Oh, actually, you
Dr Rad 1:19:41 know what? I did notice that. I actually did notice it, and I totally forgot, you’re right, the red like the red, the red ones like so the red ones, the ones with the predominantly red color in the background.
Dr G 1:19:53 You know those red fresh skirts.
Dr Rad 1:19:56 But no, like it is the red color, the red background. Is what makes them so distinctive to me. And it’s
Dr G 1:20:02 not just the red background, it’s the fact that they’ve replicated key panels from that fresh Yeah. So yeah, I’ve started to go through and collate the parallels visually from the villa of mysteries for my own edification. Yeah, hi. I paused the film
Dr Rad 1:20:23 research. Hello, pot. It’s kettle here. Hi.
Dr G 1:20:29 So what I like about this is one it suggests that somebody on set knew enough. So this is like a little easter egg for people who know enough. Well, this
Dr Rad 1:20:40 would be where it would be curious for you, because I don’t know enough about the set design to know this. But as I said before, they did make use of the sets that were there for the TV series that have just been made. But I know that they what they describe the processes that they built their sets into those sets. So it would be interesting whether that was a set that already existed, or whether it was something that they, as you like, that they made their own. Yeah,
Dr G 1:21:06 yeah. So it makes me think I’m gonna have to go and watch what Zeffirellis. Yep, definitely go and have a watch. So, I mean, part of me thinks maybe not in zephyrellis, partly does seem too common, partly because the villa of mysteries is from Pompeii, so maybe doesn’t make a lot of sense, but also because of the potential time period and dating of these frescoes. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that was besides the things that are very funny about this scene, which I enjoy. It’s one of my favorites. I did get distracted with my Roman historian hat on,
Dr Rad 1:21:46 so I believe that there is a very random scene that comes after this one, which is, of course, the alien sequence. Oh,
Dr G 1:21:54 yes. Well, I didn’t include any notes on that because I was like, there were no Romans. Well, Brian
Dr Rad 1:21:59 is being pursued by the Romans, I guess in this chase sequence. Now, I’ve heard various explanations for this. So 1979 that’s around the time that Star Wars is coming out. So it’s possible that they’re referencing like, the, you know, mania for science fiction. I have heard that the pythons just didn’t know how to get Brian out of this situation where he’s like, running up a very tall building find someone working on the top of it and really can’t figure out how to get down. Instead of decided just to insert this. I also read an academic who felt that it was a play on a book and documentary which came out of Germany, and then, I think, was adapted into English, the Chariots of the Gods, showing the aliens sort of interfering with life on Earth. I’ve also heard that it’s meant to be some sort of allusion to Brian’s ascension. Oh,
Dr G 1:22:53 yes. I mean to me, that makes the most sense. Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:22:56 yeah. So to be honest, there are so many explanations of what is going on in here. I have to admit, I kind of would go with the Python explanation of they just didn’t know how else to get him out of here. Well, I
Dr G 1:23:07 mean, part of me finds that hard to believe. I mean, they put him there, I guess so.
Dr Rad 1:23:11 But yeah, it could. It could have been a play, obviously, on the idea of Jesus being taken into the heavens. This is Brian’s moment to do that. And of course, it happens in a ridiculous fashion, as everything does in Brian’s life, as opposed to Jesus’s life,
Dr G 1:23:25 certainly. And I mean, the key thing for Brian, I guess, and for the film, is that he does escape set back down in a slightly different location, which allows him to get back to Matthias’ house. Now, Matthias’ house, is where the People’s Front of Judea meet, yes,
Dr Rad 1:23:44 and hides so well.
Dr G 1:23:47 And unfortunately, it seems like the guards are just close enough to Brian to spot which house he goes into, which causes all sorts of trouble.
Dr Rad 1:23:57 And there is a very tiny scene, which I do appreciate, though, when the Romans are like, storming into the house, and you see, like, 1000 Roman soldiers storm fast into this tiny, little house.
Dr G 1:24:06 Yeah. And I like, I do enjoy this sequence, because I think it gives us a sense of one how much Rome does. Rome things where you’re like, okay, just always send all of the guards all the time. And it’s like, this is how they managed to dominate everybody. It’s through this sheer numbers. Yeah, impressive numbers. Yeah. And it also seems to be a play on the classic sort of, how many clowns can you fit in a car kind of joke? Exactly. Matthias house is not that large, and there are many men running into it.
Dr Rad 1:24:40 I love it.
Dr G 1:24:41 So this leads me, from a Roman historian perspective, I suppose, straight to the crucifixion. Okay, you’re
Dr Rad 1:24:52 gonna skip right over the nude scene and the he’s just, he’s not the Messiah. He’s just a naughty boy.
Dr G 1:24:57 It’s got nothing to do with the Romans. Oh. Haha, by all means. I mean, now’s your chance.
Dr Rad 1:25:03 Obviously, that this is one of my other favorite scenes. It’s also obviously gives us one of the most well known quotes, I think, from the scene. And the thing I’ve the reason why I find it interesting, and I thought you might as well, is that it’s probably the most woman heavy, even though the women in question is, in fact, Terry Jones Indra, but it kind of did maybe think about things a bit differently here. So basically, Judith and Brian hook up at this moment in time, and we get very big full frontal nudity from both Brian and Judith in this scene. But to be honest again, this is where I feel like Monty Python and just say general measles. Saying they kind of are maybe unintentionally accurate. Number one, I kind of think the way that they’re just so at ease with being nude in like a small space in a family situation. I think that kind of is how people would have had to have been in the ancient world, you know, just more at ease with nudity, more used to bodily functions and things happening around them. I think the the dirtiness of this world, the you know, the smallness of this world, you know that like the way that the average person lives, I think is actually kind of more accurate than the gleaming marble we tend to see in a lot of Roman epics. But I do also like the way that they are, again, playing up with a character that’s probably more familiar to modern audiences, in that the way that Brian and his mother have a relationship. It does seem to be playing on the trope of maybe the Jewish mother, the way that she’s disapproving, that sort of thing which we see in modern shows like The Nanny, that line coming out of that depiction of, again, like a very modern character, but put in an ancient world, definitely.
Dr G 1:26:40 And the the way in which that this is like the the climactic point for the Messianic journey, exactly
Dr Rad 1:26:51 so funny, the way that the crowd, and this is where we see the crowd reacting in ways where the pythons are making fun of prophets springing up and preaching on corners, and the way people are responding to them, and the way that Brian’s like, just think for yourself. This is essentially the message of Life of Brian, as far as the pythons were concerned. It’s about thinking for yourself. Yeah,
Dr G 1:27:12 so to backtrack slightly, how did Brian even get here? So the Roman troops went into Matthias’ house. Brian was trying to hide, but he was hiding on a little balcony outside. That balcony eventually gave way, and he ended up standing on a strip of various other sort of wise prophets who were sort of promulgating a crowd. So it’s a bit like people are on their soapbox and people are gathering around, you know, the person who’s talking, who they think is most interesting? Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:27:40 with my favorite one of and there shall be a time where all things will be lost, and the little bits and pieces will be very hard to find. And Brian
Dr G 1:27:50 ends up in this situation. He’s knocked somebody off their plinth. Now he’s in front of a crowd, and he starts sort of making some stuff up. And there are some biblical references in there, stuff that has been attributed. And then he sort of trails off because he’s really waiting for that coast to be clear of the Romans, to be able to get back into the house and all of that. So once he sees that the moment has arrived, he just sort of trails off and doesn’t reveal anything. And it’s the mystery that is set up by him not finishing a sentence that prompts people to start to follow him, because they want to know what the message is, yes, which, when he was completing his sentences was of no real interest to any of them, but because they can’t and they don’t know what is the next thing he’s going to say, they become obsessed with him. Start following him around. Anyway, he ends up with this huge crowd around him, and when he wakes up the next morning at mum’s place with Judith, he is unprepared for how many people are outside his house. Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:28:52 but the crowd scene, the interaction between Brian and the crowd and the Virgin Mandy and the crowd, is just hilarious. The whole idea of Yeah, thinking for yourselves, doing your own thing. And they’re all like, yes, we’re all individuals. I love it, and I kind of love to be as well. A bit later on, not not too long before the crucifixion scene, we also see, obviously, like the fetishizing of objects associated with Brian, the gourd and the sandal. And the way that you you see factions forming around these two different objects, which is exactly the kind of stuff you see happening in Christianity in real life. I mean, this is, you know what? Relics, 101, yeah, but, but also the idea that, like, tiny details about the faith are what cause factions to form within Christianity, and leads to a lot of bloodshed, to be honest, in the later Roman Empire, as people are fighting for their particular brand of Christianity and their particular interpretation of things, which I think is what still rings true, because obviously we still see that factionalism between Christian groups. It might not be quite as extreme, but we certainly still see different and not just Christianity. Obviously in other religions as well, there are obviously different groups which are sprung up, and we still see infighting between those groups. And that, again, is one of those things that I think is just kind of timeless, even the absurdity of the kind of ascetic that Brian accidentally knocks out of his hole, which, again, is kind of, I feel like an allusion to the Desert Fathers. I feel like there has to be an illusion. I
Dr G feel like it must be, yeah, he gets very upset. The poor man who’s been out in the desert in his little hole for a long time keeping silent and eventually makes a sound, because Brian accidentally steps on his foot or
Dr Rad something. But that’s exactly the kind of his vow of silence is over. Yeah. That’s exactly the kind of extreme esthetic behavior we end up seeing a bit later, I was gonna
Dr G say they just this is a historical as far as where or where from, from a Christian perspective, certainly those sorts of figures don’t start to pop up until we’re in the depths of sort of like Christian belief on the rise.
Dr Rad Totally. The things that they do are pretty extreme, pretty extreme, yeah, when they get to them, yeah, yes, now is not the time. No, all right, the crucifixion, the crucifixion, just one crossbears, yeah,
Dr G well, you’ve alluded to it already. I really, I do love this, this sort of like the the empathetic bureaucrat, yeah, next crucifixion, good, out the door, line of the left one cross each next crucifixion, good, sort of plays out. And I was like, oh, there’s that sense in which you can also see the character, the bureaucrat here, sort of getting to the point where they’re kind of like, Oh no, that’s, that’s not okay. You know that has to do their job anyway, yeah, and just keeps doing their job. And this feeds in nicely to something that happens to Brian later, where he says to one of the Roman guards, as they’re putting his cross up, you don’t have to take orders. The guard immediately replies, I like orders. And I think for you, this is the moment where we also get the beautiful reference to Spartacus. Yes,
Dr Rad absolutely, yes.
Dr G And so as it turns out, one of the scenes that’s playing against this scene is that we’re back with bigger stickers and conscious
Dr Rad who, to be fair, again, I’m just going to pipe in and say to be historically accurate, the reason why Pontius Pilate probably actually deserves a bad reputation is history is that he does not seem to have been very skilled at negotiating the Jewish cultural beliefs and laws and practices in this region. He does not seem to be very respectful of them, and therefore probably does deserve a poor reputation as a governor for the things that went down. And probably was not a very soft and cuddly person, but being played by Michael Palin, I love him.
Dr G Yeah, look, and I don’t think the Romans would expect anything less from themselves in this situation than to enforce Roman attitudes and beliefs. Yeah, so the things that Pontius Pilate gets accused of probably all quite deserved. Yeah.
Dr Rad I mean, it seems like yeah, he probably wasn’t the best person for the job at this point in time, which probably is kind of why things got out of hand with Jesus. But was he any different to any other Roman governor? Yeah? Like, I
Dr G can’t see a timeline necessarily where a Roman governor wouldn’t have gone yeah. Obviously they need to be executed, yeah. And from a Roman perspective, Jesus is not someone special, no. And in this moment, this cross cutting scene in the sort of lead up to the crucifixion of Brian is this scene where Pontius Pilate has said that he will squeeze someone, he will save one of the of the people to be crucified. There’s apparently going to be 140 crucifixions as a special celebration, and one of them will be released. And the crowd just goes wild because they’re aware of his speech impediment, and they just offer him names that he’s going to mispronounce. Watcher. Is there a watcher? And so they just keep going on on this path, and eventually somebody suggests Brian, in which Yeah, conveniently also doesn’t work for the speech impediment, and a messenger does get sent to the site of the crucifixion like, you know, we need to release Brian. And Brian is currently distracted having, he’s in a chat with somebody else. I don’t know, he’s not across, but he is like, you know, and somebody hears this, and one of the Mr. Cheeky,
Dr Rad yes, Mr. Cheeky, yeah. Mr. Cheeky, telling him that it’s all right, my brother’s gonna come and rescue me.
Dr G And then they have this moment where a guard turns up and says, you know, we are to release Brian. And so then the people organizing the crucifixions are like, well, who’s Brian? I’m
Dr Rad Brian, and so is my wife. I’m Brian.
Dr G And so the parody of the Spartacus scene writ large absolutely to enjoy. But
Dr Rad again, what is historically accurate is that Jesus was not alone at his crucifixion, and he certainly was not the only person to be penalized this way under the
Dr G Romans. No, although apparently some of the initial critique. Of this film was that there were too many people getting crucified at one time. Absolutely.
Dr Rad Look, I think, I don’t think the Romans would have generally crucified this many people at one time. But then again, if you think about the aftermath of Spartacus war, allegedly 6000 of the surviving slaves, 6000 that is, were crucified up and down the Appian Way, so they were capable of it. Oh, yeah.
Dr G So yeah, this is basically the end of the film. It is
Dr Rad where we get to Always Look on the bright side of life. Now this is this actually segues nicely to thinking about the fact that this scene, in particular, I think, was one of the ones that aroused a lot of controversy when this film was released. So it did do very well this film, it made a huge amount of money. I think it was something like $60,000 in its first five days. I presume that means $60,000 in like 1970s money. It did do very well at the box office, but it was considered controversial by some people, and it was banned in certain areas. So it was banned in Norway. It was banned in the Republic of certain parts of the Republic of Ireland. I believe it was even maybe banned in parts of America. I think so. Definitely. It was a controversial film, and this particular scene was notorious because people felt like they were making fun of the crucifixion and, you know, Jesus’s death, something that’s hugely important for Christians. So if you, if you watch, and we will link this in the show notes, because it’s fairly available on YouTube, if you watch the BBC Two appearance of John Cleese and Michael Palin on Friday night, Saturday morning, which I have to say, my favorite part of watching that whole show was the fact that that show starts with a couple in bed having sex, and they turn to watch the program. That’s like the opening credits. But anyway, they were basically responding to criticisms from Malcolm Muggeridge and an Anglican bishop called Mervyn Stockwood, and the thing that they kept coming back to was that crucifixion scene. They felt like it was making light of death. They felt like it was really attacking a core moment for their belief. With the crucifixion, they kept coming back to that scene so you can kind of see how some people react, if you want to watch that YouTube thing, my favorite part of that whole episode is that, in terms of standing the test of time, those men don’t come across well nowadays the way that they I mean, you want to talk about being central to like Western culture and British culture, the way that they prioritize Christianity and that as being the basis for Western culture, the only thing that ever inspired anybody, completely ignoring the way that Christianity was forced upon people at the point of being burnt to death, completely ignoring all the negative conflict that has come with religions like Christianity, but it doesn’t stand the test of time. What you can see as well on YouTube, which I will also link, is the not the Nine O’Clock News sketch starring a very young Rowan Atkinson. I was gonna say that was one of his first Yeah, where? So about two weeks after that, initial debate appeared on television, not the Nine O’Clock News decided to do their own sketch making fun of the debate, where they have a bishop played by Rowan Atkinson coming on. He’s just made a movie about the life of Christ, and he’s being accused of lampooning Monty Python, particularly our Lord on high, John Cleese. And that might be a good moment, I suppose, to wrap up. Dr, G, yeah. Look, I
Dr G think so. So I would encourage you, if you haven’t watched this film, to go and do so. It’s currently on Netflix, but it might be in other places as well. It is definitely worth thinking about as you also enjoy it. And yeah, I’m just in my mind, I’m just, I’m excited about the prospect of learning more about this historical period from non Roman material and and I think that’s one of the challenges that we always face as Roman historians, is that there is that element of the victor leaves the record, and that has definitely flow come down to us, and we can see it manifesting in this film. But there’s also like things to think about, in terms of imperialism generally, and ways in which we engage in decolonizing as we go. So yeah, and
Dr Rad look, I think the thing that will stand the test of time about this film, I say, I do like that. It’s probably a bit more I lived in kind of Roman world, and I actually do like the fact that a lot of the characters we’re engaging with are more ordinary, I suppose, than a lot of the people we see in films about ancient Rome, who tend to be more emperors and generals. And we actually get to know these sorts of characters who, funnily enough, probably were the kinds of characters that. Jesus was moving around. You know, amongst us, that’s kind of why Brian and his mother are so perfectly placed to have that sliding doors kind of life with Jesus Christ. They’re exactly the kind of people that he probably would have been associating with. So I do kind of like that. But I think the thing that really stands the test of time is the fact that the characterizations like we all know people like the characters that Monty Python plays even 50 years later, including one that we didn’t really mention, but the leper, the X leper, without so much as a buy your leave, the people like that, who are kind of timeless characters, I think, and I think that’s what makes Life of Brian stand out so much, but perhaps also the fact that it is a bit of a riff on biblical epics, which some people might still be very familiar with, and I obviously number amongst those people.
Dr G Well, it has been an absolute joy to learn more about this film with you.
Dr Rad It certainly has, let’s say, arrivederci to Brian. His name is Brian.
Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians, you can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes, and you get to make suggestions for future episodes. This one was one of our Patreon requests. So of course, we’d like to thank all of our wonderful crew over at Patreon and also our ko fi supporters for helping us to cover the costs of making the show and taking it in new directions. However, if you’re experiencing a serious lack of sisters, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review that goes for our book as well. You can now purchase Rex, the seven kings of Rome, right from our Patreon store as well as through Gumroad and Amazon. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome, you
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Partial Recap - 400s BCE
Sep 05, 2024
The 400s BCE have been a rollercoaster for Rome. It certainly seems to have been a decade of big changes, both in terms of foreign policy and on the domestic front.
Join us for the highlights for the last decade of the fifth century BCE!
Dr Rad – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 400s BCE! Dr G – I’m Dr G Dr Rad: and I’m Dr Rad Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 400s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 409 to 400 in an epitome of our normal episodes. Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one. Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino.
409 BCE
In 409 BCE, the consuls were Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus and Lucius Furius Medullinus.
The plebeians were SO upset that they could not elect their champion, Menenius, as military tribune with consular power
Capitalising on that, the tribune of the plebs started applying some pressure. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE SITUATION, PEOPLE OR WE GIVE UP.
There were a staggering number of tribunes from the legendary Icilii family this year, and the plebs did always take them especially seriously. #heroesoftheunderrrepresented
Finally, THREE plebs were elected the quaestorship instead.
This cheered them up immensely as it was the FIRST TIME a pleb had been chosen for this office! Amazeballs.
The patricians naturally fell apart immediately. When they allowed plebs to be elected to the quaestorship, they didn’t really think it would happen! It was too ridiculous! A pleb in office? A pleb chosen over a patrician? This was a worrying sign that the world was ending.
To make matters worse, the Icilii started pushing for elections for military tribunes with consular power in 408. We see what you are SCHEMING, you troublesome tribunes! You want a pleb to hold imperium! Don’t make us SICK.
As the patricians and plebeians battled it out once more for consuls vs military tribunes, the Aequians and the Volscians started attacking the territory of Roman allies.
The consuls attempted to hold a levy to raise an army, but the Icilii refused to let the levy proceed until they got what they wanted – elections for military tribunes!
As the patricians and plebeians entered yet another staring contest, news arrived that the citadel of Carventum had been lost to the enemy.
Still, the tribunes refused to allow the levy to proceed – military success be damned!
This was not a popular move – but it WORKED
The patricians were forced to agree that there would be no consuls in 408 – BUT only on the condition that none of the current tribunes of the plebs could serve again OR be elected as military tribune. They couldn’t kill the Icilli, but they could kill their career prospects!
With all that unpleasantness behind them, the Romans could now march off to Carventum and win back that citadel.
They did not quite pull that off, so instead they captured Verrugo from the Volscians and contented themselves with lots of lovely booty.
408 BCE
In 408 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Caius Julius Iullus, Publius Cornelius Cossus, and Caius Servilius Ahala
In spite of the drama in 409, only patricians were elected to serve as the chief magistrates. Who would’ve thought?
The patricians had pulled some shady tricks in the election, but it worked! No plebs were chosen and they could breathe a sigh of relief.
The Antiates, Volscians and Aequians decided to band together and take on the Romans in this year.
The Romans were used to taking on two enemies at a time, but three??? Time for a dictator!
Two of the military tribunes were PRESSED to see their chance for glory and command slip right through their fingers.
Julius and Cornelius complained so much, high-ranking senators had to tell them to build a bridge and get over it.
Only Ahala proved himself worthy of office, as he was willing to do whatever was best for Rome – not himself. AWWWW
This impressed the pants off everyone, including the new dictator, Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus. He chose Ahala to serve as his deputy. That’s what happens when you’re a team player!
The Romans could now focus on what they do best – winning! They easily trampled their enemies, perhaps capturing some prisoners and a fortress?
Back at home, the patricians decided to use the same dodgy election tactics to make sure that no plebs were chosen to serve as military tribunes with consular power in 407 – and it worked again!
Who says you have to reinvent the wheel? The wheel is fine!
407 BCE
In 407 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Lucius Furius Medullinus, Caius Valerius Potitus Volusus, Numerius Favius Vibulanus and Gaius Servilius Ahala
It may have been in this year that the treaty between the Romans and Veii ran out. Hope that doesn’t have any terrible consequences!
The recently recaptured town or fortress of Verrugo was lost back to the Volscians…. Again.
Losing the territory was bitter, but the slaughter of the Roman garrison made the situation even worse.
And it all could have been avoided if the Romans had just sent reinforcements instead of waiting for their nails to dry.
406 BCE
In 406 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus, Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus, Numerius or Cnaeus Fabius Ambustus and Lucius Valerius Potitus.
406 BCE was a BIG year for the Ancient Romans, as it was apparently the year that their relationship with the Etruscan city of Veii fell apart… for the third time. It’s like Ross and Rachel all over again! Will these two crazy kids stop trying to kill each other and just admit that they are perfect for each other???
NO – the senators at Veii make it very clear that they prefer the killing option.
The Romans were SO offended that war was the only response.
Unfortunately, the young men in the city were kind of all-warred out. The Romans have finally done it. They’ve had enough fighting. Who knew that was possible?
The tribune of the plebs seized on this unhappiness to create some fantastic propaganda about how awful the patricians were. They use war to keep the people too distracted to fight for their own rights! Bastards.
The patricians knew they were in trouble when some veterans started taking their tunics off and showing their wounds. How much more blood do you want, you elite vampires??? Can’t you see they’ve already given all they have???
Instead, the military tribunes decided to head off against the Volscians. Smart to wrap one conflict before starting another!
Three of the military tribunes decided to divide and conquer – taking on Antium, Ecetrae and Anxur.
This was pushing things further south than the Romans had ever gone before!
Through some clever distractions, Fabius managed to capture Anxur, which meant lots of plunder for all!
Such generosity made the plebeians teary. Thanks for letting us profit from this death and destruction guys!
The patricians followed this up with a very unexpected bonus. Military pay! Yeah, it’s now a thing everyone.
If there ever was a moment when the plebeians had their minds blown, it was now. EXPLOSION.
The plebeians were now fully #teampatrician
It’s not just the pay guys. It’s the fact that you anticipated our needs! I mean, we didn’t even have to ask!
The only people who were not popping the champagne were the tribune of the plebs.
The plebeian tribunes tried to slap some sense into the people – HELLO? Where is the money for this going to come from, hmmm??? And why now??? What are the patricians planning???
Unwilling to lose their good publicity, the patricians made very public donations to the military pay fund, and anyone who could afford it started following their example.
The plebeians did not need to see any more – where could they sign? War couldn’t come soon enough! It was the only way to show how much they just LOVED Rome and LOVED the patricians. Nobody has better leaders. Where else do you get PAID to risk your life and limbs?!
The patricians suddenly remembered that they actually WOULD like an army to go and fight Veii. Isn’t that just a coincidence? Or did it all happen the other way round? The war, then the pay? Hmmmm….
By the close of the year, the Romans were ready to avenge the insult from Veii. Nobody is rude to the Romans and gets away with it! Time to teach the Etruscans some manners!
405 BCE
In 405 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Titus Quinctius Capitolinus, Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus, Caius Iulius Iullus, Aulus Manlius, Lucius Furius Medullinus, and Manius Aemilius Mamercus..
The siege of Veii technically began in this year, although the Romans did not make much progress because the Roman army had to leave and deal with those pesky Volscians.
Meanwhile, the Etruscans were having one of their gatherings at the shrine of Voltumna and debating whether they should support Veii in the upcoming struggle with the Romans.
404 BCE
In 404 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Caius Valerius Potitus, Manius Sergius Fidenas, Publius Cornelius Maluginensis, Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus, Gaius or Kaeso Fabius Ambustus, Spurius Natius Rutulus.
The Romans won various battles with the Volscians in this year, but the most significant victory was at the town of Artena.
The Romans managed to capture the city, except for the citadel.
Some Volscian warriors had taken refuge there and the Romans just could not break through. What’s a soldier to do?
The Romans were pouting over this predicament when a Volscian slave decided to betray his masters and showed the Romans a secret way into the citadel. (EVIL LAUGHTER)
The Romans captured that annoying citadel and demolished the town.
The slave was freed and given the name of Servius Romanus plus some property for his troubles.
Now the Romans could really focus on Veii.
403 BCE
In 403 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Aemilius Mamercinus or Mamercus, Lucius Valerius Potitus, Appius Claudius Crassus, Marcus Quinctilius Varus, Lucius Julius Iulus, Marcus Furius Fusus, Marcus Postumius, Marcus Furius Camillus, and Marcus Postumius Albinus Regillensis
Rome and Veii continued to be on the warpath this year, only this time, they both seemed to understand that this would be a duel to the death. It would be victory or utter destruction.
That might have something to do with the extraordinary number of military tribunes that Rome elected!
The people of Veii actually weren’t that interested in more campaigning and decided to elect a king.
Unfortunately, their king was well-known as a douchebag extraordinaire and so the rest of the Etruscan cities said, “You’re on your own, Veii!” Sorry ‘bout it!
The Romans were busily preparing their siege and everyone noticed that winter quarters were being set up so that siege could last as long as it needed to. This was a new development and not everyone was terribly happy about it.
The Tribunes of the Plebs started stirring up trouble in the city, as they tended to do, pointing out that this was EXACTLY what they had suspected when military pay was suddenly introduced a few years ago. TOLD YOU SO!
The patricians were completely out of line. They expected the soldiers to serve endlessly, with no work-life balance?
Why not just make them slaves and be done with it.
This was a new low – and they had seen some real scallywags in the past.
If only the plebeians had elected one of their own to be a military tribune, maybe they wouldn’t all be in this mess!
The military tribunes had anticipated that someone might start getting lippy, so they had left behind Appius Claudius, from the most patrician gens on the block, to deal with any rabble-rousers.
Appius Claudius summoned all his rhetorical powers to savagely attack the tribunes of the plebs.
They were clearly just creating strife so that they could justify their job!
If there were no tribunes, the relationship between the plebs and the patricians would be so much more harmonious – because the patricians are the best people on the PLANET!
Unity was what Rome needed – a united Rome would be unstoppable. They would conquer the world!
But hey, if the people really wanted to insult the soldiers by undoing all their hard work and risk the war moving to Roman territory, that was one way to go .A stupid way to go!
And if the people wanted to call the Roman soldiers snowflakes because they can’t take a few, well, snowflakes, they could diss their own army and make Rome look like a laughing stock in front of all their enemies.
But Appius didn’t believe the ROman really wanted that. They understood that military pay was a totally fair trade for these new circumstances, they had the grit, the determination and the hatred necessary to pounce now whilst Veii was vulnerable!
Of course, they could listen to the tribune of the plebs and be WEAK and totally ruin everything… I mean, they’re basically traitors who were completely planning to undermine the obedience of the army next.
After such a barrage of arguments, some of the people were starting to think Appius was talking sense, but the plebs were divided.
At that moment, word reached Rome of a major setback in the siege at Veii which completely changed everything.
The Patricians and Plebeians started to unite, and more of the plebs found themselves agreeing with what Appius Claudius had said.
Equestrian men donated their service – and that of their own horses – to help with the war effort.
The senators were overwhelmed, but they were about to get ANOTHER present.
The plebs did not want to be outshone by these equestrians, so they rushed to the senate house and volunteered to do whatever it took to defeat Veii. Do you want me to kill for you? Please, ask me to kill for you.
The year ended in a total love-fest – tears, joy flowing on all sides and awkward embraces between the senators and the plebs.
This infusion of fresh meat was just what the campaign needed.
The equestrian volunteers were given a money allowance – which was apparently partly financed by some new taxes on unmarried men and orphans. Thanks censors! We wouldn’t want the rich men on horses to feel the pinch – definitely best to make the orphans cover the costs.
402 BCE
In 402 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Caius Servilius Ahala, Quintus Servilius Fidenas, Lucius Verginius Tricostus Esquilinus, Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Cornutus, Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, and Manius Sergius Fidenas.
The Romans were so intensely focused on their war with Veii that they let things slide in Anxur, which they had recently added to their collection of territories.
The Roman garrison were given some leave, and whilst they were out picnicking and braiding each other’s hair, the locals recaptured their town.
Meanwhile at Veii, the commanders seemed to be more caught up in a competition with each other than in actually conquering their Etruscan rivals. Sounds like the Romans were cooking up a recipe for disaster!
Verginius and Sergius clearly had some serious beef with each other (hey Livy, where’s the backstory on these two?) and their rivalry could not have come at a worse time.
The Faliscans and Capenates decided to join their Etruscan brothers suddenly in their war with Rome – we’re sure it was out of the goodness of their hearts and not because they realised that the Romans would be coming after them if Veii fell.
The Romans already despised the Faliscans as they had fought against them in the past. How dare they cross them AGAIN?
However this surprising union of Etruscan peoples put the Romans on the backfoot. Were all of the Etruscans coming after them?
More concerningly, Roman forces were now caught between two attacking forces.
Sergius was the man on the ground and he knew the ROmans needed some reinforcements from their main camp. But he wasn’t going to ASK for help – that would mean asking his rival, Verginius, for aid.
Back at the main camp, Verginius heard that the Romans were in distress, but he wasn’t going to send help to SERGIUS – not unless he begged.
If you’re sensing that this battle did not go Rome’s way, you would be correct.
Sergius decided to run back to Rome to tattle on Verginius and demand that he be stripped of his command.
The Senate were not impressed with this situation and decided to just clean sweep it – get rid of all these tribunes, hold some early elections and start fresh.
Sergius and Verginius started to backpeddle furiously – they weren’t going to have their military tribunate cut short!
The tribune of the plebs weighed in on the issue, threatening the military tribunes with prison if they did not resign early.
Ahala, one of the other military tribunes, chimed in, telling the tribunes of the plebs that they had no right to send any magistrates to prison. Perhaps it was time for a dictator!
Everyone loved Ahala’s strong stance. It did the trick! The tribunes of the plebs and Sergius & Veginius all backed down, allowing elections to be called early for the following year.
401 BCE
In 401 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Lucius Valerius Potitus, Marcus Furius Camillus, Manius Aemilius Mamercinus or Mamercus, Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus, Kaeso Fabius Ambustus, and Lucius Julius Iulius Vospisci.
Rome was on scandal overload in 401 BCE.
The first drama was caused by the new military tribunes as they started to levy troops. They needed LOTS of men with all of the campaigns they were running – battling Veii, Capena, Falerii and the Volscians.
However, it was not a good look when they started enlisting the young and elderly.
But the more men they enlisted, the more money they needed to fund the new military pay system.
An attempt was made to introduce a special war-tax and this went down about as well as most new taxes.
The plebs were feeling very put upon and the tribune of the plebs decided to make the most of this. They stirred up so much angst that the elections of the next tribunes were a bit of a non-event, and there weren’t enough plebeian men elected to office.
The patricians were keen to undermine this position and they seem to have leaned on some of the elected tribunes to co-opt candidates that they found ….acceptable.
One of the remaining tribunes, Gnaeus Trebonius, fought hard against this. His ancestor had campaigned in 448 BCE to protect the tribunate from exactly this kind of corruption and the Lex Trebonia was now being blithely ignored.
The guilty tribunes who had made a deal with the patricians knew their reputation was in danger. They decided to harness all the negative feeling towards themselves, the tax, the levy, the wars, and channel it into attacking Sergius and Verginius.
Sergius and Verginius were the military tribunes from the previous year who had let their personal hatreds seriously jeopardise the fighting against Veii.
Insinuating that they were part of some evil deep state patrician conspiracy to drag out the wars so that the people did not have the time or energy to push for greater plebeian rights.
Hey Britney, it’s getting toxic in here.
It’s just as well Sergius and Verginius were totally guilty as they did not stand much chance of being declared innocent.
The two douchebags were issued a heavy fine, but the tribunes weren’t going to stop there. Why not try to secure land reform and refuse to pay the war-tax whilst they were at it? After all, Rome was not exactly vanquishing its’ enemies – they were mostly holding their own – was this worth a special tax?
This had a serious effect on those out in the field. Where was this pay they had been promised?
But in the city itself, all the outrage finally seemed to be paying off – a plebeian was elected to serve as military tribune with consular power in the very next year.
It only took a hundred or so years to get to this point!
400 BCE
In 400 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, Publius Manlius Vulso, Lucius Titinius Pansa Saccus, Publius Maelius Capitolinus, Spurius Furius Medullinus, and Lucius Publilius Philo Volscus VOLSCUS
In this year, The Romans recaptured Anxur from the Volscians. Huzzah!
The plebeians were in a state of shock to find one of their own serving as military tribune this year.
What made Publius Licinius Calvus so special? Did he buy his way into power? Was it family connections? Or was he just…nice?
Licinius Calvus seems to have owed his position to the fact that he was completely inoffensive to both classes – the patricians and the plebeians found him quite congenial.
With one of the major goals achieved, the tribunes of the plebs could finally relax – put on a Hawaiian shirt and take a holiday.
The war-tax, which had been needed to fund pay for the soldiers, was paid as the tribunes no longer fought against it.
Dr Rad: And that was the 400s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at Episode 144: Where in the World is Carventum? to join us for a deep dive into the 400s BCE.
Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!
A Cheeky Preview - With a Rebel Yell: Spartacus
Aug 29, 2024
We are SO excited to share a snippet of our new book with you! That’s right, we have a whole section entitled ‘With a Rebel Yell’ that will be bonus digital content on the Ulysses Press website and so we thought, why not read it as well?
Today, we kick it all off with the section on the rebellious gladiator, SPARTACUS. Ah, this is where it all began for Dr Rad, and here we are at another beginning, and he’s still her plus one.
Sneak Peek from the Bonus Digital Chapter of Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire
As always, we would like to thank Bettina Joy de Guzman for our wonderful music.
The Plebeians Push into Power
Aug 22, 2024
We jump into the year 400 BCE which has more excitement than you may have anticipated. Could this be the year we have evidence for a plebeian break-through into the important magisterial position of military tribune with consular power?
Episode 153 – The Plebeians Push into Power
Now, as always with this period of Rome’s early republican history, we need to keep into mind that the extant records are sketchy and we’re relying on writers living centuries in the future for their interpretation of whatever information they could scrounge together. And yet, if we look at the names that are put forward for the top job in 400 BCE, we notice some folk we’ve never heard of before – not just individuals, but extended family groups (gens), which is worth considering in more depth. You know we can’t resist a good thorny mystery when it comes to the evidence!
What is the senate and how did it work?
The entry of Calvus into the position of military tribune with consular power is a bit of a cat amongst the pigeons. But it might be Livy’s details about Calvus’ position as a member of the senate that makes this even more intriguing. We consider what the structure of the very early senate might have been (largely in the absence of strong evidence from the period in question). Where did the senate come from? How did it emerge as a feature of the republic? What might make sense given the senate is later understood as an advisory body? Was there a third socio-political class in the early republic? We explore some potential scenarios.
Things to listen out for
Our transition into nineteenth century German scholars
The difference between segregation and what was happening in the early republic
Discussion of the abuse of power by the powerful
The character of our plebeian hero Calvus
The tribune of soldiers
The fragmentary writer Licinius Macer
Updates on the state of play in Sicily and their conflict with Carthage
Igor taking a short break????
Our Players for 400 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Publius Licinius P. f. P. n. Calvus Esquilinus (NOT a patrician?????)
Publius Manlius M. f. Cn. n. Vulso (Pat)
Lucius Titinius L. f. M’. n. Pansa Saccus (Not a patrician?????)
Publius Maelius Sp. f. C. n. Capitolinus (Not a patrician?????)
Spurius Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat)
Lucius Publilius L. f. Voler. n. Philo Vulscus (Not a patrician?????)
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus; and Fasti Capitolini.
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Münzer, F. ‘Licinius 43’ in Paulys Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).
Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.
Sound Credits
Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sound.
A photograph of the Roman forum by Felix Bonfils in the 19th century. Source: Picryl.
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for the Latin and our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome,
Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad
Dr G 0:33 And I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:55 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr G.
Dr Rad 1:03 And I am Dr Rad.
Dr G 1:05 And we are super thrilled to be here for what is the cusp; the very moment of transition. We’re going to be talking about 400 BCE.
Dr Rad 1:18 I know. Do you remember when we were young and we started this podcast, and now we’re middle aged, and we not even at the better known parts of Roman history yet.
Dr G 1:27 Goodness me, oh, you know, I like being in these lands of Rome’s just developing. What is it? Why is it? Nobody really knows.
Dr Rad 1:38 I know. Yeah, well, it’s easy to do a bit of a recap of where we were at last time in ancient Rome. Dr, G, because in 401 we hit a momentous milestone for ancient Rome. That’s right after all this conflicting of the orders that we’ve had going on for, oh, I don’t know, maybe like 85 years. Maybe longer, plenty, actually, no, 95 years. Yeah, 95 years. After 95 years of having conflict of the orders dominating our narrative, we finally got a plebeian elected due to serve in 400 BCE as a military tribune with consular power, which, okay, it’s not the consulship, but it is the most powerful magistracy that will exist at this moment in time.
Dr G 2:30 And let’s not disparage this position, because a military tribune with consular power has all of the effective means of the consul role, plus all of the added bonus of the military, I suppose, which exactly the consul had already, I don’t know.
Dr Rad 2:50 Yeah, they just don’t get the snooty patrician ability to be like, we’re patrician and you’re not, and we do the religious rights in this particular realm, and you don’t, and we have fancy shoes and you don’t!
Dr G 3:06 Ah, it’s the fancy shoes that get you every time it is.
Dr Rad 3:10 Manolo Blahnik should be all over that one ancient Rome, yeah.
Dr G 3:16 Well, I think this is because it’s such a momentous occasion. I think we need to dive in because I’m not sure that our source material is necessarily agreeing with each other, Dr. Rad.
Dr Rad 3:29 Controversy. All right, let’s do it. Dr, G, let’s dive in to 400 BCE.
I’m dancing. I’m dancing.
Dr G 4:04 It’s 400 BCE, and we have six military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad 4:12 Alright. Dr, G, tell me who they are, because I believe there is some confusion around the names for this year.
Dr G 4:19 There may very well be, and I put it to you that there’s a whole bunch of names in here that don’t sound patrician. First of all, we have Publius Licinius Calvus Esquilinus, question mark, not a patrician. We haven’t had a Calvus before.
Dr Rad 4:39 No, this is definitely, this is the guy. THIS is the guy. Dr G, this is the one.
Dr G 4:44 Oh okay, he’s not my only one though
Dr Rad 4:46 He’s definitely the plebeian, yeah.
Dr G 4:49 We also have Publius Manlius Vulso. Sounds very patrician. Whatever.
Dr Rad 4:55 I was gonna say, I think I’ve heard that name a number of times.
Dr G 4:58 But wait, there’s more. We have Lucius Titinius Pansa Saccus.
Dr Rad 5:07 That is a weird name, if ever I heard one.
Dr G 5:10 Not a patrician.
Dr Rad 5:13 hmhmhmhmhmmmmm
Dr G 5:13 Doesn’t sound like it. This is his first appearance. But we will see more of this guy later. We then have Publius Maelius Capitolinus. Now you would think patrician sounds pretty patrician.
Dr Rad 5:27 Well we’ve heard, we’ve heard of the family before. That’s that’s all, yeah.
Dr G 5:30 But there are some question marks around this guy as well.
Dr Rad 5:34 Hmmmm.
Dr G 5:34 Maybe not a patrician.
Dr Rad 5:35 Maybe not.
Dr G 5:37 Spurius Furius Medullinus.
Dr Rad 5:40 I know he is definitely, definitely a patrician.
Dr G 5:42 Yeah, we’ve got, yeah, back on solid patrician territory.
Dr Rad 5:45 The Furii.
Dr G 5:46 Very elite family come back from the dead, just to let us all know how good they are. And Lucius Publius, or Publilius, there seems to be, you know, some controversy. Maybe there’s an extra L in there somewhere. Voler Philo Vulscus.
Dr Rad 6:05 Another unusual name, Dr G.
Dr G 6:08 Very, very, potentially, not a patrician. So that would leave us with potentially three or four of these military tribunes with consular power as being non elite patrician holders of the role, which is pretty huge.
Dr Rad 6:31 Not the very cream of the crop.
Dr G 6:33 Well, has everybody died? Have the elite just had a specific plague that’s affected only them? Who can say? But I think there is room to be very cautious in this moment as a good historian-
Dr Rad 6:47 Sure
Dr G 6:47 Because having never seen hide nor hair of a non patrician in any of these roles for years and years, ever since the beginning, since 509, so over, over 100 years to then, all of a sudden, have at least half, and maybe more than half, all of a sudden be non patrician. It seems to be significant.
Dr Rad 7:16 It is. It’s like they’re pulling the old switcheroo on us, Dr G.
Dr G 7:21 Find the lies.
Dr Rad 7:23 That’s right, yeah. Well, look, all I can tell you is that, according to my narrative source, Livy, only one of them is a plebeian.
Dr G 7:35 Truly a plebeian. The others are just pretending by changing their names to get onto the role.
Dr Rad 7:40 Clever sleight of hand. You know, just when you think they’re gonna zig, they zag.
Dr G 7:45 Classic patrician move. Now, why does Livy think that only one of them might be a plebeian and the rest are patricians, but of unknown families?
Dr Rad 7:57 He gives me no such reason, Dr G, he just tells me. He just tells me that the plebeians are shocked and amazed that they have finally done it, that they have finally taken the plunge and elected one of their own to serve in the supreme magistracy, which technically they have been able to do according to our narrative for almost 50 years now.
Dr G 8:26 I was going to say, so this ties in very particularly to what we know about the legal aspect of the lex Canuleia or Canuleia of 445 BCE.
Dr Rad 8:40 Yes
Dr G 8:41 which was the official moment where they were like, oh, yeah, plebeians could hold the position. I suppose it’s kind of done a little bit under like duress.
Dr Rad 8:52 Oh, they definitely did not want them to have the consulship. They would keep your dirty little contaminated paws off the consulship. That’s for the very, very special people that are patricians. We’ll come up with this other ridiculous office with an insanely long name instead. And you can, you can maybe have that one. Maybe.
Dr G 9:09 Exactly. You could be a tribute of the plebs, nothing more, nothing less.
Dr Rad 9:13 Yeah. But they’re not even thrilled about that.
Dr G 9:16 Well, I mean, sometimes and the patricians try to get they try to muscle in on that as well. So there’s a lot going on there, but this lex Canuleia is that idea of there should be permissible intermarriage between patrician clans and plebeian families. So you would expect that there would be a bridging of the two groups, and as the generations move down, you would see more mixed class Romans, as it were, and it’s like, is it the case that it’s taken 45 years for all of those intermarriages that were permissible to produce the kind of children who can stand up and say, Look, I don’t have a patrician name, but I got what it takes to take on the role of military tribune with consular power.
Dr Rad 10:06 Well, this is the thing that Livy has constantly been driving home throughout the narrative, is that the plebeians couldn’t bring themselves to vote for plebeian candidates. And there are various different reasons given, but it kind of always comes down to the fact that, oh, the patricians are just so amazing, they can’t possibly not vote for them all the plebeians are rubbish. Or, you know, there’s always some reason why the plebeians think that their own kind are not somehow as suitable or as good for the job, and why they don’t end up voting for their own candidates. But I agree it is intriguing to think that maybe there has been a generational shift.
Dr G 10:47 Well, I wonder, because I do have some questions about this. So we know that this came into play in 445. So the first question is, how likely would it have been that any patrician-plebeian unions are happening from that point onwards? Because I imagine there might have some resistance to that. Just because it’s legal doesn’t mean people want to do it.
Dr Rad 11:08 This is true.
Dr G 11:09 And then who of those unions, if indeed so, let’s say a patrician and a plebeian got together. They had a bit of a marriage.
Dr Rad 11:18 Romeo and Juliet.
Dr G 11:19 It was cute. Yeah, crossing the divide. You’re from the fields, I’m from the city, and when I saw you from my balcony, I thought to myself, he is one hot plebeian, and I will marry him and have his babies. And they did that. Let’s say that they did hypothetically, would those children be considered patrician or plebeian or neither? Now I suspect from a Roman perspective, it’s going to depend on what the class of the father was.
Dr Rad 11:49 I agree, yes.
Dr G 11:50 But that leads us to more complicated questions as well, because let’s say you were in that first crop. You were very excited. Finally, you were able to, like, get together with your plebeian love and as a patrician, you might expect your children to have come of age in the 420s or at the latest, the 410s if things were going a little bit more slowly for you. So where have these people been in terms of holding positions of power? And it’s like it’s taking a long time for them to for the wheel to turn. So I feel like there’s a narrative element here, because there’s conveniently, 45 years between the introduction of this intermarriage law and people who seem to be from a plebeian background, coming into a position which would suggest that if they were the first crop and everything happened like: the law comes in; somebody has a baby; 45 years later, they’re old enough to hold the role of military tribune with consular power. You’ve got to be relatively senior.
Dr Rad 12:50 The Romans do like older men in charge.
Dr G 12:54 They do. They have a – seem to have – a preference for the salt and pepper, as it were.
Dr Rad 13:00 I’m going to call it the George Clooney paradox.
Dr G 13:05 And the more gray there is, the more attractive he becomes.
Dr Rad 13:08 Exactly. It’s very intriguing.
Dr G 13:11 Doesn’t happen for all men, but definitely happens for some and so I feel like this whole situation invites more questions than it answers, which, frankly, listeners will not be surprised about.
Dr Rad 13:23 Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, obviously, that’s the narrative that we’re given. How true any of this actually is is definitely out for debate. We’ve already, I think, highlighted in many episodes on conflict of the orders that we’re really not entirely sure that there is quite the hard and fast divide between patricians and plebeians that our sources would like us to believe, and therefore the motivations for these groups is not always going to make sense.
Dr G 13:53 Oh, come on.
Dr Rad 13:55 But let me, shall I tell you a little bit about this guy? Shall I tell you about the guy?
Dr G 14:00 Oh, this Calvus Esquilinus
Dr Rad 14:02 yep
Dr G 14:02 character, yes. I would love to know more about this plebeian.
Dr Rad 14:07 Yes. Okay, so the plebeians are shocked and amazed. They’ve finally done it. That’s where we’re at. However, the candidate that has been the one to break the barrier is a little bit puzzling even to the Romans themselves, and that’s because we have never heard of like any as calvis before, because he had never held any offices. So he’s never been like a tribune of the plebs, which I guess is what you might expect for someone who is then going to, you know, take a jump, take a run at the senior magistracy of Rome, however, and this is where we get this little detail, which I couldn’t resist telling you last time. Livy says all he was, was a senator of long standing now well on in years, which blew my mind. It still blows my mind, this idea that, oh yeah, by the way, in spite of all this stuff I’ve been feeding you about the Conflict of the Orders, by the way, plebeians are allowed to be in the Senate. Didn’t mention it. Didn’t mention it up until now, but, by the way, bombshell.
Dr G 15:12 Just in case you haven’t been paying attention.
Dr Rad 15:15 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All this bitterness.
Dr G 15:18 Turns out they’ve been there all along.So I think this gives us a moment to think about like, what is the Senate in this period of time? Because we don’t know a lot about its structure. Really
Dr Rad 15:32 Clearly
Dr G 15:33 We know very little about it. And the thing about the Roman Senate that we tend to hold on to is this idea that they’re they’ve got this traditional role. So thinking about how the Senate is represented in later periods of Roman history, they’ve got an advisory role that’s considered traditional. They sit outside of legislation. In some respects, they’re supposed to be advisors, and they’re drawn from significant, powerful families. And there’s usually some sort of like monetary entry level as well. So there’s both seniority in age and position, and also there’s a wealth aspect. And then there’s kind of like the sense in which they’re not legally bound to be followed either this weird kind of overhang.
Dr Rad 16:26 Not until later. That does eventually happen, but not for a long time.
Dr G 16:31 Not for a long time and so and then we’re in this period of history where we’re on the cusp of shifting into a new century. The Republic has been at play for about a century, so this advisory body has probably taken slightly different shapes across the course of that century, none of which we’re very aware of or could pinpoint in any way, because they just kind of get referred to every now and then. But the idea that there are plebeians in this group does run very counter to most of the things that we assume about the Senate, and assume we know about the Senate, even from, say, 200 years from now in Roman history. So I think this is a really fascinating point where how stable is this republic, and what does it really look like to function in this century, in this very early period? And it sounds like we’re not really sure, and Livy has just dropped a bomb.
Dr Rad 17:36 Look he has. And part of the issue comes from Livy himself, I admit it. He tends to use patrician interchangeably with Senate. You know, he constantly is assuming in his language choices that they are one and the same in terms of their perspective. And so throughout the narrative that I have been providing in this podcast, the Senate comes across, therefore, as a very patrician, quite conservative, quite elite body. Now, two of those things may be true. I would say that, yeah, they probably are pretty elite, regardless of what social class they come from. And look, they probably are fairly conservative as well, because they’re a bunch of old guys. But I, there have been questions that we’ve had raised in the scholarship that have highlighted that we don’t really know how people become senators at this point in time, because later on, the Senate is mostly made up of people who have held magistracies. But obviously that doesn’t work when you’re starting a republic. You wouldn’t – you’d only have, like a guy and and we don’t ever get a sense that the Senate starts with like two guys, and then you get a few more, and then you get a few more. And, like, it’s this math game where gradually we’re building up the numbers, because there just aren’t that many positions going around. It would be a very slow, tortuous process, and I don’t think that they’d be fulfilling that advisory body capacity if it’s just like a bunch of five guys for a while. So it does raise questions of, Well, where did they initially come from?
Dr G 19:08 Yeah, and this is where I think playing around with, like the possibilities, like what would make sense, what might be plausible in this context, and the idea that there may be delegates sent by families, and there is a request for an advisory body. So where that request might come from? I think it would be coming from families themselves, being like, okay, if we’re doing this system differently, and we don’t have kings anymore, where we’d like to have a bit of a sense of what’s going on and getting people together. So not just having a couple of magistracies, like the consulship and the tribune of the plans, but having a family network where people get together and they send a representative into a situation where they can come together to talk at issues. And try to provide advice. And this might be taking the place of the idea of, well, if there was a king in charge, it was all pretty down the line. But for a king to rule, they kind of have to have consent of the people there. Has there has to be some sort of social support there? So the families are involved anyway, but maybe not in the same kind of way. And if the kings are operating with some advisors, and we do get hints about that, then maybe this sort of carries over into this new Republican experiment where they’re like, Well, we still need to be here to provide some advice. You know, everybody’s got a perspective. And if you’re going to make legislation that affects all of us, then we do want to have a say in how that’s going down and what that might look like. And then the number could be quite flexible at that point, depending on who’s involved, depending on how many delegates might be sent, depending on the agreement amongst that group about how many people are appropriate. And as some plebeian families become more significant, and particularly after the advent of the tribune of the plebs, it might be the case that you’ve got some quite powerful plebeian groups who are like, well, we would like to have a seat at that table as well. And that’s interesting,
Dr Rad 21:22 Yeah, well, this, yeah, this is exactly, I think, what we’ve been trying to highlight this whole time. There is this real tendency to see the patricians as the wealthy guys and the plebeians as the poor guys. And that’s because of, I think, the connotations that we have when we use the word “pleb” to describe somebody these days, but it also is because of the kinds of issues that the plebeians are often concerned about in the sources, you know, money and debt is sometimes one of them, land ownership is another one. So you can understand why you’d get that impression that these people are not, you know, as well off as they’d like to be, and that sort of thing. But one of the things that we have highlighted is that it’s not really like that in practice, we can definitely detect that there are some plebeian families that are obviously quite wealthy, and with wealth tends to come power and influence, even if it’s not official, like not because you’re holding a particular office, it’s just because, obviously you have The ability to grant favors, and you know, your opinion is maybe noted a little bit more. So I completely agree it would be really interesting, particularly given the whole warlord aspect that we’ve been noticing in this century, that it does seem to be a collection of powerful families that have stepped into the power vacuum potentially left by the office of king, perhaps. And it seems to be almost much more feudal in nature, in that they each obviously hold territory in particular areas. And it seems that they are protecting, representing, calling on the people who live in that area, and maybe sort of representing them, so they’re able to, you know, raise private armies from amongst their area. So I love the idea that you’ve just proposed that maybe it is a family run affair, to a certain extent, where they’re sending representatives.
Dr G 23:14 Look, I think it’s a potential, and I think it’s definitely worth thinking about, like, how does this emerge? Because, I mean, they’re referred to as the fathers. So there’s that masculine implication already, but there’s also that idea of seniority in terms of family position, and the way that that sort of translates into a political advisory body, I think, is really quite fascinating. So, yeah, I’m, I’m not sure, and we don’t have good evidence, like, as we’ve seen, Livy has just dropped this on on us.
Dr Rad 23:46 I know I couldn’t believe it when I read it, because I don’t actually have a huge amount of detail for this year, which seems criminal given how long we’ve been waiting to get to this point. But that detail alone just sent me whirling, you know, in terms of all the thoughts that are running through my head. And it also brought me back to something which we probably haven’t talked about in a while, but that is this name that is sometimes used to refer to the Senate, the ‘patres conscripti’. Now there’s been a lot of ink spilt over what exactly this means and how we should interpret it. I mean, we know what the literal meaning of those words is, but what are the implications of those words? So “patres” meaning the fathers, which makes sense, because we do have this group of older men who are holding an advisory role. That makes sense. And then there’s been some debate about what the “conscripti” part is exactly actually referring to. Could it be that the conscripti were people who were, like, conscripted to the Senate, or like were enlisted into the Senate somehow, and therefore, maybe were representatives of, say, plebeian families. So maybe the part raised were maybe some sort of advisors to the king or. You know, families that the king gave particular rights and privileges to, who knows, and that’s why they got this identity as part raise. And then we have this potentially separate group that are somehow, maybe slightly second tier, but the idea that they are, yeah, the conscripted ones into this senatorial body.
Dr G 25:21 Yeah and these are the things that we just we wish we knew about this early period of the Republic, because it would change everything if we knew how they were selected, and what were the kind of Terms of Reference they were operating under. Like, was it a role that you held for life? Was it something that was a sort of a time limited opportunity, and you did it for a little while, and then a different conscripted person came into that to fill the space. We just don’t know.
Dr Rad 25:50 Yeah, I mean, there’s even been suggestions that the conscripti are neither patrician or plebeian, and that this would neatly explain, I know, this would neatly explain, why we have-
Dr G 26:01 There’s a third group in Rome? No! No!
Dr Rad 26:05 We can’t handle it, but yeah, maybe the fact the idea of them being a third body who does not technically belong to either, would explain the weird names that we get in the lists of consuls and in the lists of the military tribunes with a consular power and that sort of thing, where it doesn’t seem like it’s the right kind of name for the families that we know, you know what we think we know should be holding those offices. So it might explain the confusing nature of all the list of magistrates that we’ve had in this century, when there’s supposedly this big conflict of the orders going on, and therefore that, that’s why we have that particular sort of setup. And then maybe the plebs gradually become involved with certain groups as clients, or, you know, through other means. And so obviously there’s more blurring of the lines going on, perhaps in terms of who is, who’s part of these groups, or who is represented by these groups. It’s incredibly confusing, obviously.
Dr G 27:07 The more it gets confusing, yeah, and this is not the first moment where we have a plebeian or a suspected plebeian in a position of power. So that’s the other thing. This seems to be the, maybe the most plausible moment. But there are some other candidates earlier on. So there is the suggestion that in 444 Atilius may have been a plebeian, and in 422 Antonius, in that year may have been a plebeian. And these are arguments that are put forward by very respected German scholars of the 19th century, Momsen and Munzer. So we don’t want to discount them out of hand, because I would love to be as good as a German scholar from the 19th century.
Dr Rad 28:01 100% it’s the dream.
Dr G 28:03 That is the dream, just grow me a beard, sit at a desk, have seven children, just never talk to them.
Dr Rad 28:08 Give me a pretzel and call me Dr Greenfield.
Dr G 28:12 Please do. But there is this sort of suggestion, like, really early on, after that 445 law on the potential for intermarriage, that there may have been some early figures who, quite possibly, and we’re not sure, may have been plebeian as well.
Dr Rad 28:31 Yeah, yeah.
Dr G 28:32 So that puts us in a kind of situation where the lack of surety that we have about anything is just being reinforced at every opportunity.
Dr Rad 28:42 Yeah, well, I mean, I guess I sometimes kind of imagine this situation if, as if Ancient Rome was the American South prior to the Civil Rights Movement, just because it kind of helps me remember that even with much more clearly, I think, delineated lines of segregation as existed in the south, even in a situation where you have laws and unofficial practices and violence and terror and all of that kind of stuff going on to try and keep two groups apart, even then it’s not always successful. You know, there are those exceptions where you hear of people mixing anyway or behaving in ways that are dangerous, or, you know, whatever. And then, of course, you have the Civil Rights Movement, which, of course, is, you know, daring to push back against this kind of segregation. And Ancient Rome is obviously not like that. So to me, it makes sense that obviously there would be much more blurring of the lines between these two groups than it sometimes would appear because of the nature of our source material. It makes sense that it’d be far messier, because we’re not talking about a society that is segregated. So this is about access to opportunity, access to wealth, access to privilege, access to knowledge, like about the laws and that sort of thing. But on a day to day level, I don’t think that they would live these like super segregated lives.
Dr G 30:16 Yeah. And I think the way that we think about, for instance, the big ticket item that has often been at the center of this conflict has been use of public land. Might be a bit of a retrojection from our written sources, but the absolutely the idea at the heart of that is that some families have land and control land, and some families don’t.
Dr Rad 30:41 Yeah.
Dr G 30:42 Or they don’t have enough land to do the subsistence farming that would allow them to take care of themselves. And they’re looking for another opportunity to rectify that. And so this idea of the sort of the haves and the have nots within a society, and the kind of infighting that might be generated by that of people pushing for opportunity, people resisting changes to the status quo that suits them, and then the sort of complexities that happen within that where people in power often abuse that power.
Dr Rad 31:19 Yes, absolutely. And that’s what rings true, I think, about the conflict of the orders, and why you and I get fired up about it, because it does seem to be this age old story that people with power will not voluntarily give up that power, and will often it will often lead to situations where there is an abuse of that power and that privilege, yeah.
Dr G 31:40 For sure.
Dr Rad 31:42 Anyway, so let’s get back to Licinius Calvus.
Dr G 31:45 Oh yeah, what’s this guy up to? What’s he doing in the role? Surely he’s a mover and a shaker.
Dr Rad 31:50 Oh. Dr, G, you gonna be so disappointed. So Livy does not tell me why he thinks the other guys are patricians, and why he thinks this guy is a plebeian. He doesn’t go into that, but he does ask the question, why was this guy the guy? Why is he the one that finally broke that barrier? And there are a couple of reasons that he moots about for me. One of them is that he had apparently a connection to a guy called Gnaeus Cornelius, who had been a tribune of the soldiers and had been involved in raising the pay of the cavalrymen. So yeah, we’d be talking about equestrian pay, and, yeah, pay for soldiers and that sort of thing. Allegedly, this guy obviously had some sort of renown due to this, and that maybe the connection, but it is not obviously the most obvious line into a magistracy.
Dr G 32:53 I was gonna say, I’m like, we don’t really ever talk about the tribunes of the soldiers…
Dr Rad 32:59 No. And that’s just it. It’s, yeah, it’s, it’s a bit confusing as to why this would be such a big deal.
Dr G 33:09 Yeah, interesting, interesting move, Livy. Interesting move.
Dr Rad 33:13 And look, Livy doesn’t say this is the reason. He just says this is maybe one of the reasons we know that also one of Livy sources, at times, is Licinius Macer or Macer, if you prefer, so potentially, is this the influence of a source that Livy is using, who is writing with maybe a slightly favorable bent towards his own family and that is seeping into our source material? But even this is confusing, because we’re not obviously always sure when Livy is relying on Licinius Macer, he doesn’t always tell us, and there are other sources that we know he’s relying on. We can’t tell for sure if that’s what it is that he’s using at this point in time.
Dr G 33:57 All right, so that potential to be relying on family narratives, potentially.
Dr Rad 34:04 Potentially, yeah, but it doesn’t. It’s not 100% a convincing story, because at this point in time, it doesn’t really seem that. It doesn’t seem like what Livy is writing is that pro this family, like, there’s other points where you can see it more clearly that, you know, he’s glorifying the Licinii or something like that. And so it’s not really clear that that is what is going on here exactly. There is another reason, and this is the reason that’s going to really disappoint you. Uh oh, it may have been because of a speech that Licinius Calvus apparently gave where he talked about wanting peace between the patricians and the plebeians, essentially saying, can’t we all just get along, guys and everyone really responded positively to this fence sitting, non-committal position.
Dr G 35:03 His way into power!
Dr Rad 35:06 He did, I think that, and look, to be honest, disappointing as it sounds, that kind of, that kind of checks.
Dr G 35:12 You’re telling me he made a palatable plebeian for a patrician to get into power?
Dr Rad 35:20 I know, and that’s why I kind of believe it. Because I’m like, Well, of course, of course, the patricians let in the guy that’s not going to make waves and just get it. It’s going to be like, You know what, guys, I’m just really happy to be here. I’m happy to be included.
Dr G 35:34 We’ve taken our soft core plebeian and we’ve placed him in power. It’s going to be fine. I mean, the plebeians have wanted this for a long time, yeah, so basically, they put in the least plebeian guy they could find and be like, but we did it.
Dr Rad 35:48 I think that that’s the case. Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s the case. And apparently, the tribune of the plebs are finally happy. You know, they’ve been feeling really bitter that they fought so hard to win the right for plebeians to hold these offices, and then nobody ever elected anyone that was really starting to make them feel like there was no point to their existence. And why should they even go on? And so they therefore stop objecting to the tax which we talked about last episode. So remember, there was this mention that there had to be a special war tax to fund all these military operations, like military pay and pay for the equestrians.
Dr G 36:27 Yeah, now that you mention it, it feels very circular. We got to pay the soldiers, so we need to tax the soldiers.
Dr Rad 36:33 Well, it was causing a massive problem, because people had been promised this pay and then they weren’t receiving the pay because the money wasn’t coming through, because the tax wasn’t being paid, and the tax was only something that was only something that was just mentioned, and the tribunes were opposing that because they thought it was obscene that the patricians would ask for money to do all of this. And now, however, they’re just as happy as Larry, so everything kind of clicks along. The tax gets paid, it’s sent to the army. The army is happy. Because the army is happy. Guess what? Anxur is retaken from the Volscians, who seem to have not learnt from the example the Romans set. They’re off having a lovely holiday somewhere, allowing the Romans to just swoop in and take it back, which is weird, because that’s literally how they got it back from the Romans in the first place. It’s a little bit of history repeating.
Dr G 37:24 I’m suspicious.
Dr Rad 37:28 Yeah, I would definitely lean into those suspicions.
Dr G 37:32 All right. I mean, so this is not the plebeian hero that we’ve been waiting for.
Dr Rad 37:37 Nope. Livy explicitly says that his presence makes the plebeians happy. They are okay with him, and the patricians are not too upset by him. So it’s a win win situation, that is literally what Livy tells me.
Dr G 37:49 And it seems problematic in some respects for the tribune of the plebs as a cohort to just sort of roll over be like we finally got where we wanted, guys, everything’s great now. And I was like, the least plebeian dude ever got in as a plebeian.
Dr Rad 38:08 What I’m going to use a couple of modern day analogies, if you will. Again, I think about, for example, when in Australia, Julia Gillard got, well, I was going to say, got elected. But that’s not exactly how it happened. But let’s just say, happened. But let’s just say we had our first female prime minister, Julia Gillard. We also have, obviously, Obama becoming the first African American president of the United States. It obviously is not the case that just because you have a person of color or a woman finally holding this prestigious position, that everything magically gets solved for those groups that are experiencing problems being obviously women and African American people. But sometimes people talk about it like it is, hmm, you know, like they’ll say, well, what more do you want? You got a woman in office. What more do you want? There’s an African American man who’s serving as president. Clearly, everything is fine in this country. There are no problems for women, there are no problems for people of color, because the most important position in this country is held by someone from that group. Case closed, so I can kind of see why there might be that reaction after so many years of waiting.
Dr G 39:19 Well, okay, let’sgrant the tribune of the plebs some grace in this moment. Yeah, for being excited that they’ve finally broken through the patrician ceiling, as it were.
Dr Rad 39:35 Yeah.
Dr G 39:36 And it’s like, well, you know, now that it’s broken, they should be able we can get the real rebels in there, yes, but for now, let’s just be grateful that we got something at all.
Dr Rad 39:48 Yeah, and I know it sounds a bit ridiculous and but we know that the tribunes aren’t going to remain passive. I mean, we know there’s plenty more trouble to come from that group, so we know it’s just a temporary reprieve.
Dr G 40:00 I’m so sad.
Dr Rad 40:01 Yeah, and that’s basically all the detail that I have, apart from the fact that the Romans had a very cold and snowy winter, and it made the roads and the Tiber impassable. However, corn did not go up in price because they had enough stockpiled.
Dr G 40:21 Oh, that’s convenient.
Dr Rad 40:22 Yeah, that’s really all I have, yeah.
Dr G 40:25 Updates on weather conditions and the state of the harvest.
Dr Rad 40:30 I’m going to mention this really gigantic political moment, and I’m going to juxtapose that with a weather report from ancient Rome, which I almost never do unless it involves something, you know, really disastrous, like a flood or something like that. The only other detail I have is something that we probably could surmise without Livy telling us the plebeians were feeling positive and thought that maybe, just maybe, they might be able to get a plebeian in office the next year too. The suspense.
Dr G 41:01 I’m feeling optimistic, guys, yeah, it’s snowing outside, but there’s a plebeian higher office.
Dr Rad 41:07 That’s pretty much it. Yeah, I’m freezing to death, but there’s a plebeian in higher office. My family doesn’t have enough land to survive, but there’s a plebeian in higher office.
Dr G 41:18 Good thing we’ve got all this grain.
Dr Rad 41:22 So yeah, kind of crazy that we don’t have more detail. But then this is partly because, and once again, I’m just going to say this, we think that Livy is somewhat padding the narrative, as we know, because he wants to have this 10 year siege against Veii and so he’s got to make up the numbers somewhere.
Dr G 41:38 He doesn’t mention anything about this siege!
Dr Rad 41:42 Yeah, so that there we know that this has been strung out a little bit from probably a shorter time period to 10 years.
Dr G 41:51 In the background: no news from the siege front.
Dr Rad 41:55 Yeah, I can’t believe they’re not even talking about it, apart from the fact that, you know, the army gets paid, woo hoo.
Dr G 42:02 In breaking news: the army gets paid; there’s a plebeian in highest office, and it’s snowing on the front.
Dr Rad 42:09 That’s basically what 400 BCE was like in ancient Rome. It’s almost as though you’re there. So vivid is the detail.
Dr G 42:18 I do feel like I’m there trying to do my best English radio presenter voice. So I only have Diodorus Siculus as a source for this year. So thin on the ground.
Dr Rad 42:33 Dionysus is a distant memory.
Dr G 42:36 He is. He’s going to return to us at some point. I have his next fragment, waiting in the wings for when it’s appropriate to introduce.
Dr Rad 42:44 Waiting to pounce.
Dr G 42:47 And I’ll move on to new sources soon, at some point, I believe, as well, yeah, but Diodorus Siculus is really focused on what’s going on with the situation in Sicily and the ongoing conflict with Carthage. So news from the south, and he does mention a whole bunch of these military tribunes. Get some of the names right, get some of the names wrong, right? But it’s not his focus. He’s pretty clearly interested in what’s going on and Syracuse and the tyrant Dionysus, who’s starting to gain quite a reputation for himself, he sends a herald to Carthage and says, prepare yourselves. We’re going to attack so, I mean, I think I feel like that’s pretty polite.
Dr Rad 43:35 It’s giving them some warning.
Dr G 43:36 Yeah. He says, Unless you withdraw from the Greek cities of Sicily, I’m coming for you. And they’re like, oh, oh, okay. So the Carthaginians are not happy about that. Obviously it’s a bit of a threat, and there’s the sense of violence there. And they’ve also just endured a plague themselves. So they’re kind of, you know, the messenger turns up, and people are like, lying in the streets and not doing well. The herald reads it out, and everyone’s like, I can’t get up right now. War, you say, eerrrrr.
Dr Rad 44:12 Today is not that day.
Dr G 44:14 Yeah. So they feel pretty unprepared. They’re not having the best day of their lives. And they then start to think, Okay, well, how will we plan for this? There’s no question in their minds that they’re going to withdraw from the Greek colonies in Sicily. They’re like, I might be sick, but I’m not dead. And they decide that they’re going to hire a bunch of mercenaries from Eastern Europe.
Dr Rad 44:42 Okay.
Dr G 44:43 Quick, set sail! And so they’re sending out ships across the Mediterranean, particularly towards the east and the Northeast, to try and recruit as many people as they can for what they know will be the inevitable attack upon Carthage. They want to be ready for that. And they’re happy to pay for that support.
Dr Rad 45:02 Okay, so we’re gearing up for conflict.
Dr G 45:04 We’re gearing up. Everybody’s getting ready. The Carthaginians are ill, but they’re ready to fight. They’re preparing themselves.
Dr Rad 45:13 True dedication.
Dr G 45:15 Indeed indeed.
Dr Rad 45:16 All right, cool. Well, that means Dr G, I think it’s time for the Partial Pick.
Oh, okay, yeah. Does that herald a change of sound effect?
Dr G 45:36 Stay tuned, listeners. All right, so the first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 45:44 Well, I guess we need to give them some credit for retaking Anxur. It doesn’t seem to have been at all difficult, because I have absolutely no detail about the fighting, but they did it okay.
Dr G 45:59 I mean, it’s not very impressive, if they can just walk in there.
Dr Rad 46:02 It isn’t. But on the other hand, they do still have it, and Anxur is a good place to have.
Dr G 46:09 Well, I mean, certainly the Romans have decided that. I’d give them at most a two.
Dr Rad 46:14 What? That seems mean. Come on, three. Like they’ve taken a place, come on. Three!
Dr G 46:23 There’s been no sign of any conflict.
Dr Rad 46:25 Well, I mean…
Dr G 46:26 It’s simply just somebody, you know, in a Roman dress, walking up in, but they’re like, oi, and everybody inside be like, come on.
Dr Rad 46:33 No, okay. No, no. They just said that the Volscians had relaxed their – they’d relaxed the strictness with which they were guarding the city. It doesn’t say that there were no guards anywhere.
Dr G 46:46 But don’t you think that if there had been a military conflict, that Livy would have taken the opportunity to discuss it?
Dr Rad 46:52 Maybe he would, but maybe this is just a very, you know, a filler year, and therefore he’s not going to waste his time. He’s already told the story of how it was taken the first time.
Dr G 47:03 I don’t have the details, you know, I can’t guarantee that anything good happened here.
Dr Rad 47:07 We can’t, but we can’t decide points on lack of detail alone. It has to be somewhat on the military objective, otherwise we’re going to be really in trouble.
Dr G 47:16 That’s why I’m giving them a two. I mean, they took it.
Dr Rad 47:19 Fine, fine. I don’t have the energy to fight you,
Dr G 47:25 And that is how Rome will win all of her wars.
Dr Rad 47:29 This is why I’m the Remus and you’re the Romulus.
Dr G 47:30 Oh, no! So so far, they’re scoring two out of a possible 50. Here we go. All right, diplomacy.
Dr Rad 47:42 Huh? No, I don’t really feel like there’s much of that going on. Really. No, that’s got to be a zero diplomacy.
Dr G 47:53 Expansion.
Dr Rad 47:54 Okay, yes, okay, now you have to grant me something. Now I get three.
Dr G 48:00 If you think
Dr Rad 48:01 I think
Dr G 48:01 one measly little city of the Volscians…
Dr Rad 48:04 Hey, how often do they take a city from the Volscians? Not often. Every year back, they fight with them a lot. But how often do they actually take stuff, like take important things? You know, they’re not just taking a sheep. They’re taking the city, man.
Dr G 48:25 Given how stubborn I was on the last one, I’ll let you have this one. I am nothing, if not, benevolent.
Dr Rad 48:33 Ahhh the Augustus is coming through in you. Dr, G, all right. All right. We got a five.
Dr G 48:41 All right. So the next category is virtus.
Dr Rad 48:46 No, definitely none of that. It is a very, very dull year for behavior.
Dr G 48:54 Yeah, it feels like we don’t get quite enough behavior to be able to make a judgment call on it, does it?
Dr Rad 48:59 No, definitely not.
Dr G 49:00 All right, so our final category is the citizen score.
Dr Rad 49:05 Okay. Now this could be good, because whilst it’s cold, they’re not starving to death, and there’s a plebeian in higher office. I mean, sure he seems like a wet blanket, but hey.
Dr G 49:20 Yeah, look. I mean, it’s better than nothing, exactly.
Dr Rad 49:23 I mean, it’s a big deal. It is a – it is a big moment.
Dr G 49:27 It is and I think we should give them some points for that.
Dr Rad 49:30 Yeah, should we say? Is it like a five? Because, as we talked about, doesn’t make magically solve all the problems, and they actually have conceded on having to pay this tax, which they really didn’t want to have to pay.
Dr G 49:40 Well, if you don’t pay the tax, you don’t get paid. So what comes around goes around, I suppose.
Dr Rad 49:44 I know. I mean, I know it’s like, possibly beneficial, but it’s also, you know, who’s funding it, where’s the money? Follow the money.
Dr G 49:52 Follow the money. And the money-
Dr Rad 49:54 Yeah,
Dr G 49:54 -turns out it’s going to the citizens in the end. So that’s nice, yeah, look, I think a five is appropriate.
Dr Rad 49:59 Okay.
Dr G 49:59 This is a landmark moment for plebeians in terms of their representation beyond the tribunate. And I guess we’ll see how things go from here, hopefully it goes up for them.
Dr Rad 50:11 Well, Dr, G, that means that we finish on a grand total of 10 out of 50 golden eagles, which is disappointingly low for a big breakthrough for disenfranchised, I’m going to say, people everywhere.
Dr G 50:29 Yeah, look, it’s a good day for Romans, but maybe a not, not a great day for the Partial Pick.
Dr Rad 50:40 Oh, my God, I just had a thought, what if Livy deliberately made this year boring because he doesn’t like the plebeians?
Dr G 50:49 That would explain everything.
Dr Rad 50:51 It does, it goes all the way to the top.
Dr G 50:55 Well, I’m gonna sit on that thought. And it has been a pleasure.
Dr Rad 51:02 Yeah, it has been a pleasure. And may I say, given that we’re going to be releasing this episode in August of 2024 we are but a few months away from the release of our new book, “Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire”, which is available right now for pre order. If you would like to have a laugh whilst also learning a thing or two about ancient Rome. Please pick up a copy wherever good books are sold, and also Amazon, which I don’t put in that category.
Dr G 51:33 Very wise, yeah, this is a really exciting book. This is both historical it’s a little bit humorous in the way that we are, and there’s plenty of like, further readings and a very extensive bibliography. So if you’re if there’s subjects that interest you and take your fancy, you can definitely go off and do further reading and look up the source material as well. So yeah, I think it’s going to be very exciting. So “Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire” from Ulysses Press.
Dr Rad 52:06 Yeah. And you can also head to our website to find the details on how to pre order a copy for yourself today. The way that publishing works these days, pre orders are actually super duper important, so that’s why we are spooking it, even though it is not yet a physical reality.
Dr G 52:22 Yeah, I mean, perhaps you’d enjoy it for yourself, but I reckon it will also make a great gift for Christmas, for people who you know, who you’re like, oh, they do like Rome, but they’d like to know more.
Dr Rad 52:35 Yeah, or a light read over Thanksgiving. I believe it will be out in America, for our American cousins. I believe we’ll be out there just in time for Thanksgiving. How exciting. I know a perfect light read for your holiday.
Dr G 52:49 All right. Well, on that note, get reading people. Thankhank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. On behalf of Dr Rad and myself, we want to say a huge, huge thank you to all of you for enjoying Ancient Rome with us and a special thank you to our Patreon supporters for loving the show and enabling us to do amazing things like upgrade our audio equipment. So thank you so so much and have a great day.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode - Ancient Rome's Worst Emperors with LJ Trafford
Aug 08, 2024
In our latest special episode, we welcomed the talented LJ Trafford to the show to discuss her latest book, Ancient Rome’s Worst Emperors (2023).
Special Episode – Ancient Rome’s Worst Emperors
You may very well have encountered some of LJ’s wonderful earlier works, including her historical novel series: The Four Emperors. These books cover a turbulent time in the early imperial period with Nero’s fall from power (and life) in 68 CE and the subsequent chaos that followed in the year 69.
She has also published nonfiction works on ancient Rome including How to Survive in Ancient Rome (2020) and Sex and Sexuality in Ancient Rome (2021). And just in case that didn’t keep her busy, LJ is a contributor to The History Girls blog, writing about all sorts of fascinating subjects involving the ancient world from Pliny the Elder’s concerns about the dangers of sponges to handy tips to avoid assassination as a Roman emperor.
Our conversation allowed us to talk about the qualities that define ‘good’ and ‘bad’ emperors. And yes, Augustus and Tiberius were mentioned, but we kept it civil! LJ then took us through some of the characters who qualified as one of the WORST emperors, including Caligula, Didius Julianus, Silbannacus, and Petronius Maximus.
Image of Caligula, courtesy of Carole Raddato on Flickr.
Things to Look Out For:
Cat armies
Shadow emperors
Tips on shaking up your next meeting
Drunken late-night shopping (Roman style)
You will definitely want to grab a copy of LJ’s book to hear about all the other terrible emperors of Rome after this episode. You should be able to pick up a copy at your local independent bookstore, as well as the usual corporate giants.
Dr Rad 0:15 Music. Welcome to the partial historians.
Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome,
Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad and
Dr G 0:33 I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:55 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians I am Dr G
Dr Rad 1:03 and I am Dr Rad,
Dr G 1:05 and we are thrilled today to be sitting down and chatting with LJ Trafford. Now you may have heard of this author before. LJ Trafford studied ancient history at the University of Reading and is famous for her historical novel series the four emperors. These books cover a turbulent time in the early imperial period with Nero’s fall from power and from life in 68 CE and the subsequent chaos that followed in the year 69 LJ is also a contributor to the history girls blog, writing about all sorts of fascinating subjects involving the ancient world, from Pliny the elders’ concerns about the dangers of sponges to handy tips to avoid assassination as a Roman emperor, a goal to which maybe none of us aspire these days, but you never know, those of you out There, there are hints and tips for how to do it. In addition to this, LJ has published three accessible and immensely readable non fiction works on ancient Rome. How to survive in ancient Rome from 2020 sex and sexuality in ancient Rome, 2021, and most recently, ancient Rome’s worst emperors in 2023 and it is this latest work on those troublesome emperors that we’ll be discussing today. Thank you so much for joining us. LJ,
LJ Trafford 2:32 thank you so I’m delighted to be here. Huzzah. Huzzah,
Dr G 2:35 we’re very excited. This is a great topic, and I think there’s going to be some nice surprises in here for people as well. Oh, that’s good. So before we delve into some of the gruesome details, we’d like to start with your perspective on what makes people in power so fascinating. So some of these stories are told, and they’re retold many times, and yet we continue to return to them. And I’m interested in what makes them compelling. From your perspective,
LJ Trafford 3:05 I think from our perspective, I think our kind of politicians look slightly kind of impotent in comparison to kind of Roman emperors. You know, if you’ve got a parliamentary system, our kind of politicians are kind of curtailed, aren’t they, by kind of law, international laws and regulations, and used to be in Britain, certainly UK, European laws and regulations. And they’re also constrained by, you know, having an opposition party who might block everything they want to do. So you kind of vote for some your party, and they don’t fulfil their potential because they’re forever blocked and they and, you know, I think in most societies, there’s these kind of big, looming issues that nobody seems to want to deal with that just get kicked down the road as a can down the road for somebody else to pick up later. So I think kind of in comparison looking at Roman emperors, where somebody can just walk in and go, Hey, let’s just call September Germanicus, and then it’s done. And everybody does. I think there’s something quite compelling about somebody who can come in and just make a change and just say, I’ve decided today we’re going to do this, and it happens. And I think it kind of plays into that kind of childhood game of, what would I do if I ruled the world, kind of thing, that kind of imagining how you generally imagine that you’d be the benevolent dictator. You know, you never think you’re going to go the full Caligula, do you? But so I think in comparison, it kind of appeals for that. And I think also the stories that Roman historians have collected for us on the Emperors is what makes them so compelling, because they can collect all the worst bits and all the most kind of gruesome bits and all the most kind of sexy bits. So they they’ve created really the compelling story for us. It’s, you know, it’s not, it’s not a tale of kind of laws being passed and kind of dreary business. It’s all you know, who’s sleeping of who, who’s done the most outrageous thing, who’s decided, you know, to call every month after themselves, who’s built a, you know, 60 foot gold statue of themselves. So I think it’s that, I think that’s what compels us, just the the power, the ability of one man to decide so much and for people to to act on that. I think, I think we’d all like a kind of a horn to people around us. Just act on every whim, wherever that may be. I think that. I think that’s what makes them so attractive and makes us, yeah, I think it makes this question, what would we do if we had that power? Would we have a 60 foot gold statue of ourselves created?
Dr G 5:11 Definitely, the
LJ Trafford 5:13 answer is yes, of course. Why wouldn’t you? I know, why wouldn’t you name every month after yourself? Because you know you can, I
Dr Rad 5:22 must admit, I’m really enjoying the idea of you saying to someone like Donald Trump that he is impotent.
LJ Trafford 5:30 Oh, yes, I’d like to see his reaction to
Dr Rad 5:33 that. You feel impotent. Yes, exactly.
Dr G 5:38 I think he has aspirations in the Imperial sense, though, if he could be a Roman Emperor, I think he definitely would try. I think he
LJ Trafford 5:45 talks like one a lot, doesn’t he? He comes in as I’m a lot of his rhetoric on the previous election was, I’m the guy who can change this. It’s the eye. It’s not the we, the Republican Party, can come in and change Americans. I Donald Trump, I alone can clean out the swamp. I alone can do this. So he talks a bit like a Roman emperor, because it’s a it’s about him. It’s not about, you know, the kind of administration and their aims. It’s all about him. So, yeah, I can, I can see there’s a comparison there.
Dr Rad 6:11 Well, I think, I kind of think that’s why we are so intrigued by these sorts of figures, because we, in some ways, they seem so alien and different to us for exactly the reasons that you’ve outlined. But then when you look at some of the political figures of the 20th and 21st century that still loom very large, you can kind of see how they would enjoy that level of absolute power. And I think
LJ Trafford 6:34 there’s a kind of fascination, isn’t there, a bit recently, with kind of Putin and his kind of power, and lots of people in, kind of in America, which, you know, given that American Russians history, kind of admiring Putin, because he kind of does stuff as such. So whereas, opposed to their political system has maybe got a bit kind of paralysed in recent years, so there’s still this fascination of one man with with absolute power, I think. And I think, yeah, I think we look at our own times, and we forever looking back and comparing, aren’t we generally wrongly? It’s
Dr G 7:03 one of those dangers of the attraction of the strong man, isn’t it? It’s sense that it’s aligned with a kind of efficiency of purpose and outcomes which you just can’t get in the bureaucratic grind of day to day government.
LJ Trafford 7:17 Yeah, the danger of the strong man is when they stay too long, isn’t it, and then people forget what it was like before there was the strong man, and then they start to not appreciate the strong man. And then it all goes horribly wrong, the kind of thing. But
Dr Rad 7:28 yes, we’re not advocating dictatorship on those podcasts.
LJ Trafford 7:31 She just doesn’t like that. Not advocating dictation, not advocating, not advocating anything like that. We
Dr Rad 7:37 always have to make that very clear, you know, as Roman historians, because sometimes it sounds like we actually are getting swept up in Roman values.
LJ Trafford 7:46 I do not share any values of ancient Roman I can’t think of it
Dr Rad 7:50 exactly yes. So let’s talk about your book a little bit. You take the reader through the imperial period in the Roman West, and you provide examples from the first century all the way down to the fifth century, which means there’s a huge amount of ground to cover in your book, and it means that you have to be a bit selective about which emperors you focused on, but it is also an opportunity to draw attention to some emperors that are less well known, perhaps to general readership. So what kinds of qualities or defects were you keen to include that maybe helped you decide who you were going to focus on?
LJ Trafford 8:24 Yeah, kind of first of all, I probably naively didn’t realise what a huge task this was when I agreed to write this book. Because generally I get given a book title and a book brief, like, kind of sex and sexuality, and I get like the chapters, and they say, write a chapter on contraception, write a chapter on marriage, write a chapter on this. And I did the brief for this, and I kind of randomly said, Oh, I’m going to write about, you know, worst emperors, you know, over 500 years. And and then when I went to research it, I realised what a huge task is, how much reading there is. And then I thought, well, maybe I could do it by dynasty, and I’ll just pick, like, the worst one from each dynasty. And then I looked at, and there’s loads of dynasties, just like, far too much, you know. And I got a kind of, I got a work count of, like, 85,000 words. And there was no way I could pick an emperor from each dynasty and write about them in depth. And I wanted to go in depth on some and kind of pull them apart. So I had to kind of go back to drawing board and go, Okay, how am I going to choose these worst emperors? And I kind of took a few things into consider. I took Augustus’ Res Gestae, the kind of story of his life, because it’s quite a good blueprint for what a good emperor should be, because it’s all about I’m brilliant. This is what I did. This is what makes me brilliant. So I kind of took that, because he would talk about, I built this temple, I built this. I defeated this enemy. I did this. I brought in these laws. I gave this money to these soldiers. I gave so much to the people. So it gave me kind of blueprint of what a good emperor should be. And I took kind of Suetonius 12 Caesars as well to help a bit, because he he does a biography of the first 12 emperors. Well, the first 11 and Julius Caesar, we don’t count but, but he splits his biographies into they. Deeds and their bad deeds, which again, gave me a bit of a basis to have a look at what a good emperor should be doing and what a bad Emperor did. So I kind of used them vaguely as my kind of back blueprint for picking them. And then really, I chose ones that I thought were quite interesting as well, kind of randomly, but I wanted to show right across those 500 years show kind of how the role of Emperor changes and the kind of people holding it change as well. And I wanted to do, I wanted to look at some more unfamiliar ones, because it’s very easy to go, okay, worst emperors, and we just go, okay, Nero, Commodus, Elagabalus, and the kind of the usual people. And I wanted to, kind of, I wanted to find out some more about some different ways in which you could be a worst emperor that didn’t necessarily involve kind of sexual depravity and kind of spending lots of money and excess. Because, you know, that I thought as a book, it would get a bit samey, if that’s like every chapter, oh yeah, and they bankrupted the Treasury. Next chapter, oh yes, and he bankrupted the Treasury. Next Oh yes. Incest with who, you know, Mother, incest, sister, you know, I thought it’d be a bit samey, so I wanted to pull out some kind of alternative ways where people could be worst. And I found, you know, numerous ones where they, you know, they didn’t have these kind of big personalities, like the kind of colleagues and the Neros of the world, but actually, they got the top job, and they just, they just weren’t very good at it, and they just weren’t up to it, you know. And there’s a series of people who kind of become emperor, and at the first sign, the first kind of, kind of barrier, they first the first problem they face, they just completely fold, which I thought was quite interesting. So it was a whole series of people who kind of got the job and then realised they weren’t good enough, which is that, you know, I think must be a terrible realisation that you’re like, I’m emperor, wow, and everybody’s praising you, and you suddenly realise I’m not good enough. I can’t cope with this. And there’s no kind of like, no resign, and there’s no like, handing in your month’s notice again, sorry, chaps, not the job I thought it was going to be, you know, I’ll let somebody else do it. You know, that’s not how you stop being an emperor. You stop being an emperor because somebody kills you, basically, or you die naturally. So there’s no resigning. So yeah, I was looking for kind of people like that, people other reasons why you might be worse. And I think, yeah, not having the qualities you need to be an emperor is certainly one. Being weak is certainly one, not being the kind of strong one. And, yeah, just being kind of ineffectual, being promoted above your kind of ability level and and I thought that was a more interesting way to pull people out. And it pulled out some emperors that I hadn’t, didn’t really know much about, apart from just their names, people like kind of Valentinian the second and kind of Gordian. It pulled out some more interesting people I wanted to have a look at and explore a bit further in detail. But yes, I mean, it’s a bit it’s a book to for people to debate. And I was thinking that I was going to get a lot of a lot of them shouting at me for including various emperors or not including various emperors. And various ones didn’t get in because I, you know, had 85,000 word counts. So some got cut out. And, yeah, some got included because I wanted to write about them, because I thought they were quite interesting. So people like Domitian, I don’t necessarily think he was terrible emperor, but I think he’s a good illustration of what being Emperor does to you, in a sense, the paranoia and that what you have to do as emperor in the sense of holding on to power, and how the actual kind of things that came with being Emperor for Domitian are the things that kind of undid him. So he, you know, his paranoia gets worse and worse and worse, and he kind of undoes himself. So I thought he was an interesting one to look at as to what kind of being, what being Emperor does to you, does to your mindset, and can lead you down a worse path that you wouldn’t necessarily have followed had you been, I don’t know, a bit of a stronger character or less paranoid, but it deservedly paranoid. You know, he got assassinated. So you could say he was deservedly paranoid. So
Dr Rad 13:48 I was going to say that, you know, the saying is, it’s not really paranoia if they’re actually out to get you. Yeah.
Speaker 1 13:54 I think Domitian even said Himself to me that nobody believed in conspiracies unless they were successful. So he was, you know, he was well aware of it.
Dr Rad 14:03 Listening to you talk about that, it again, gives me some sort of modern vibes with people like Louis XVI and Nicholas II, who kind of knew from the get go that they weren’t up to the job and didn’t turn out too well for either of them, either,
Dr G 14:19 certainly. But yeah, there’s a lot to be said for character. Isn’t there? Because for somebody liked mission, perhaps, like, if he had never gotten into that job, chances are he would have lived a perfectly regular kind of elite Roman life. And yet, being thrust into power sort of brought out all of those characteristics in him that maybe he didn’t have a good chance to manage on his own, and then all of a sudden, here we are, and he’s assassinated. Yeah? I mean, he’s
LJ Trafford 14:45 very, you know, he would have, yeah, lived a good Roman elite life. He was a tremendous administrator, a tremendous guy for the details guy. So you can imagine he’d be the guy you’d want on every committee, because he’d, you know, you’d pull out all the details you hadn’t thought of, like, oh, cool, cool. Thanks to mission. Thanks. Yeah, forgotten about that. Gotten about that. That’s really important. But yeah, I mean, he’s paranoia probably built before then, because, you know, he was involved in the year 69 CE, and can thrust to the forefront there. So he’s paranoid probably started in his teenage years, when his father was declared emperor, and his father is in, you know, Syria so safely out the way of Rome. And Domitian, who’s only about 18 at the time, is in Rome, and he’s the kind of the front of the kind of Flavian dynasty. So everything’s kind of centred on him. So I think he’s kind of paranoia probably started from that moment there watching kind of emperors fall and rise right in front of his eyes. But, but, yeah. But I think being emperor, yeah, didn’t improve upon his kind of personality. Probably brought out the kind of worst in him, and that he’s a good example of, you know what you do to try and hold on to power, and his attempts to hold on to power completely undoing. Because the more extreme he becomes, the more plots there are. And then there’s a successful one, and you only need one to be successful. Yes, the
Dr G 16:02 dangers, yeah. And I think this sets up nicely, thinking about the first emperor that you discuss in the book, which is Caligula, which, I mean, it would be hard to pass him over, I think, because he’s almost like the what would be the word
Dr Rad 16:21 the OG terrible,
Dr G 16:24 the OG terrible, yes, the OG terrible emperor, because we’ve kind of got this blueprint that’s kind of offered by Augustus through the Reyes guest. Then we’ve got the struggle street that is Tiberius, who’s really trying to sort of make it happen. Is maybe not quite sure whether he really wants it, but he still seems pretty competent overall. I think that’s a compliment for you. Dr, rad. And then we get Caligula, and he seems to have some pretty devastating qualities that do make him unfit for rule. And I’m interested in what stands out for you when you’re thinking about caligula’s life and his reign. Yeah, he’s
LJ Trafford 17:04 a, yeah, he’s a kind of poster boy of what you would think of as a worst emperor. He’s a kind of shorthand, you know, even today, for what worst Emperor is. You know, anyone who goes slightly extreme is going, Oh, it’s all going a bit Caligula. He’s become that kind of shorthand. He’s like, you say, he’s the first kind of Emperor who’s really kind of unqualified for the job, in the sense of Augustus. Had, you know, this way, created the role of Emperor, though it’s not really a role, it’s kind of nebulous, a nebulous thing, but he created that, and he’d, you know, he’d fought civil wars, he’d held, you know, government posts, he’d got a big and long kind of background in in kind of administration. So he, you can say he was kind of qualified to do that. And Tiberius coming in his emperor in his 50s, he’s got a long history of, you know, being in the military and and holding public position. So again, he’s a very qualified person. And we have colleague who comes in at 25 and he hasn’t got that kind of background, he hasn’t got that kind of training, and he’s the kind of the last minute heir to who suddenly decided upon so I think he goes in with the kind of disadvantage of not knowing how things work. Probably he goes in with the advantage of a lot of public support, because he’s the son of Germanicus and Agrippina, who were very, very popular with the people, and who his father, Germanicus, had died when he was very young, and Agrippina had been exiled by Tiberius and later, kind of killed. So he goes in with a lot of good feeling. But yeah, I think, I think it stands out with kind of Caligula, is there’s a kind of a pushing of how far he can take things. And maybe that’s because, you know, as we said, he hasn’t. He’s got that kind of unqualified feel about it. He’s pushing what the word Emperor means and what he can do with it. And underlying it always is this kind of sense of hum, a kind of a very dark sense of humour that comes out in some of the things he does, you know, kind of famous joke about, oh, I’m going to make my horse a senator, you know, kind of disparaging the whole senatorial class and and, you know, on the crawler stage, you know, there was equestrian he was thrown to the beasts and was protesting his innocence, so Caligula had him taken out of the arena. Guy probably thinks he’s going to be saved instead, he has his tongue cut out and thrown back in with the beasts. So this is kind of sick, kind of humour and kind of delight in kind of pushing what it means to be emperor and what he can do, you know, to the extent of wanting to put his, um, his statue in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, which does not go down well. And in the extent of, you know, he doesn’t dress like an ordinary mortal. We’re told he dresses in very fine clothing. Um, he’s kind of, kind of crossing the boundaries of what’s acceptable in Roman society, kind of sex wise. And like we’re saying, kind of clothing wise. So you know, sex wise, he’s breaking all the taboos, all the things you shouldn’t do. He allegedly held dinner parties where he would with senators and their wives, where he would take their wives away, have sex with them, and then take them back to their husbands and give. Long kind of die trait on how great or bad they were in bed, and that kind of thing, that kind of pushing the envelope of, you know, sleeping obviously, with freeborn women is not, not acceptable if they’re married. He’s he’s kind of pushing and pushing what he how, how much he can get away with almost, and when somebody’s going to say no. And that kind of spreading of kind of terror and humiliation. You know, famously invited a group of people at the dead of night to the palace Who all think they’re going to be executed, and then he just does a little dance for them and sends them home. So there’s this kind of, there’s a kind of thing about pushing the envelope and kind of torment and humiliation and enjoying that, that kind of runs through kind of Caligula reign that he enjoys exercising this power, and he enjoys the effect it has on people, and he enjoys watching, you know, people being tortured, etc, which we can kind of say all kind of stems from a very, very troubled childhood, to put it mildly, where he’d watched his family being picked off one by one around him by the Praetorian prefecture, Janus. So his mother had been exiled and died horribly, and his brother, two brothers, had been exiled and died horribly. And he was kind of next on the list and was saved and then becomes the kind of heir to the to the guy, Tiberius, who’s bumped off his family and is sent to kind of live with him on Capri, the island of Capri where Tiberius has kind of retired to and is forced to kind of keep up this front of being nice to Tiberius whilst knowing what he’s done to his family. So you can kind of see, with that kind of troubled background that it might make you slightly slightly unhinged, and when given the opportunity to kind of take revenge on those senators who signed those kind of those papers that damned his family, you could kind of see that he would kind of push it as far as he could go. Well,
Dr Rad 21:47 that’s definitely the thing, I think that always is intriguing about Caligula, because when you as you say, look at the actions that are recorded, it seems like no question this is a bad guy, but there is that possibility that he is specifically targeting a group of people who have legitimately caused him a lot of pain and grief in his life, and that that’s where this comes from, and this is him sort of unleashing all of that pent up aggression that may have been building up for years and years because The drama of his family is unfolding throughout his entire childhood.
LJ Trafford 22:23 Yeah, I think it’s true. I think there seems to be a point at which he realises and he comes in as a kind of the darling of the Roman people, and they call him chicken and Sweetie, and, you know, the senses he preys upon him. And there seems to be a point when he realises that they don’t mean it, that this is just words and words being thrown at him. And from that kind of point on, yeah, he starts to kind of target them deliberately, deliberately to humiliate them. And, yeah, I think you’re right. I think it is that kind of pent up rage that you know, when the kind of wool is lifted from these eyes, when there’s a plot and he realises these people don’t love him, they don’t adore him. He Yeah, it’s revenge, and it’s revenge against them and and you can kind of see that kind of unfolding, and he’s and obviously the people writing the history are the kind of senatorial class, so any kind of humiliation or kind of undermining of them is going to rank very personally with their kind of personal pride. I mean, Augustus was the one who walked that kind of tightrope between keeping the Senate on side and happy and feeling like they’re in power whilst not actually having much power anymore. And Caligula kind of can’t do that, and won’t do that. He won’t pretend. He won’t work with them. He won’t pretend that they have the power. He is the one with the power, and he unleashes it on them. So, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s revenge, isn’t it? Really, it
Dr G 23:41 does seem like that, yeah. I think it creates a sense of empathy as well for him, this idea that he’s operating primarily from a position of pain, yeah, and thinking about that trauma of his childhood, and then how that sort of manifests when he has the opportunity. And I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I think some of the obviously, he did terrible things, but all of a sudden you’re kind of like, okay, this is somebody who’s gone through incredible amounts of hurt and frustration, and now they’re in a situation where they have the opportunity to make a choice about how they navigate that, and no one can stop them.
LJ Trafford 24:19 Yeah, that’s, that’s the kind of frightening thing about illegally. Yeah, no one can stop him. And you know, the person who does stop him is not one of these senators who’s been targeting. It’s not a Brutus character who makes a grandstand, you know, for liberty and all this. It’s um, one of his guards because he made fun of his voice. It’s, you know, it’s a very personal assassination. And this guard had got a very high pitched, slightly girly voice, so Caligula had been giving him ever more kind of embarrassing kind of watch words, you know, something like Venus or something like that, evermore kind of just taking the mickey out of him, and he’s the one that kind of snaps and sets up a plot against him. It’s not actually the kind of Senators with grand noble. Lofty ambitions to rid themselves of a tyrant. They don’t kind of turn against him, because, I guess it’s the fear factor. And, you know, going back to Domitian, you can kind of see that, because we have the writings of Pliny and Tacitus, who served a mission, you know, and both of both of whom did very well under Domitian and got promoted, and, you know, moved up the ranks. But they give us an insight into what it’s like to kind of serve an emperor who’s, you know, who is that kind of, not great, you know, it’s terrifying. It’s terrifying to stand in a room and face them when they lose their temper. And I think for Caligula, it must be even more terrifying, because there’s no limits to what he might do. It seems he could do anything. And he does, you know, his whole kind of military campaigns, where they go, think it’s to Germany, and there’s nobody to fight. So they just get some people to hide in the forest for him to capture so he can have his own triumph, you know, the kind of thing. So the it feels like there’s no, kind of no limits to what he will do. But they still don’t turn because they’re just too, too frightened, I guess. But, but, yeah, I mean, it’s coming It’s coming, it’s coming from his child, it’s coming from pain, and it’s full out revenge and, you know, and it works, yeah?
Dr Rad 26:06 Well, I mean, I suppose comparing him to Augustus and Tiberius, again, they’ve both obviously experienced their own pains and setbacks in their lives, but you don’t get the sense that they were ever shielded from that. They kind of grew up in a very sort of realpolitik kind of world, whereas Caligula, because he was so young when things started going wrong for his family, and then you have that allusion to the papers that he had access to when he became emperor, it’s almost as though he maybe did not know the full extent of complicity potentially, in this senatorial class, and you know, people who were involved in powerful circles against his family, and maybe he was sort of kept a bit in the dark, and it wasn’t until he became emperor that he sort of had the wall lifted from his eyes. And maybe that’s partly where this, this pain and sense of revenge comes from, the fact that he maybe didn’t have the full picture, and then all of a sudden, you know, it was kind of like this light, light bulb going off, and he’s like, oh, okay, so this is how it all went down. And this is who really testified against my mother, and this is what really happened. Yeah, I
LJ Trafford 27:16 think you’re absolutely right, because I think, you know, when you read the sources, you know, the person who gets responsibility for the death of all colleague of his family, oh, it’s also Janus fault. You know, there’s this kind of thing. Sejanus is executed, and then, you know, everybody’s kind of like, oh, yeah, nothing to do with us. It was, yeah, it was Sejanus. He did everything. He did everything. Everything is blamed on him, and he’s dead, conveniently dead, so he can be that kind of scapegoat. But, yeah, the papers show that it you know, Sejanus didn’t act alone. He needed people to sign things. He needed things to get passed. And they, they did, and they, they aided the death of his family. And I think you possibly right that he maybe didn’t know. Maybe he he was shielded from it being so young and be and was probably told, Oh, it was sejana. Sejanus bumped off your family with Tiberius. They’re the villains in this piece, and the wool is lifted from his eyes with these kind of papers, and kind of finally realising that these, these are the people who are involved in it as well. Well, that’s
Dr Rad 28:11 why it’s so interesting, because listeners of this podcast will be aware that I have a slight fondest for Tiberius, and one of the things that I have been struck by is that Caligula actually doesn’t seem to have that much of a grudge against Tiberius, which you think he would if Tiberius was really the man he held to be responsible for the downfall of his of his entire family, ultimately, as the Emperor during that time. You know, there are serious some digs. There are some comments, but he also seems to admire Tiberius. Yeah, there are also some positive things that come out of that. So it’s, it’s kind of a weird relationship that those two must have have, but I certainly never get the sense that he truly hated Tiberius. No,
LJ Trafford 28:55 it doesn’t, yeah, like you say, it doesn’t come out much. There’s not, kind of like a complete damning of Tiberius memory and, you know, kind of ripping up statues as what happens of Emperor’s kind of deaths, you know, he kind of keeps it, keeps it going, yeah, yeah, I would grieve you. It doesn’t seem to be the hatred. It doesn’t, yeah. I’m trying to think, no, what he says about Tiberius is not much that comes out of you,
Dr Rad 29:17 like, as you say, dark jokes that. But he says that kind of stuff about everybody,
Dr G 29:21 and they did spend some time together, so they would have had a personal relationship. So I imagine that would play into it for him as well.
LJ Trafford 29:33 Maybe he was won round by Tiberius’ winning personality though, Tiberius was not well known for his kind of winning kind of charm. And I
Dr G 29:41 was gonna say charisma is not really strong suit
Dr Rad 29:45 in the charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent. I think he only has the last two. So let’s move along now to one of my other favourites, because I love movies, love gladiator so we of course. Us have to go all the way down to Commodus, who ruled between 180 to 192 he’s been made very famous by Joaquin Phoenix, okay, and I think we can get sort of Caligula vibes from that portrayal in Gladiator. But not many people would be aware that actually, right after him, there was some pretty dud emperors as well. So let’s get into one that I bet nobody’s heard of before, Didius Julianus. What made him so terrible, Didius
LJ Trafford 30:30 Julianus is a joy. We have to say that gladiator kind of underplays, Commodus, somewhat Commodus is way more extreme than anything they ever showed on screen Gladiator, yeah, but I suppose that’s down to you know, the whole thing Commodus is very big on the beast hunts, and he’s doing decapitate ostriches with kind of curved arrows, which the Romans loved. But today, in our kind of animal loving society, possibly wouldn’t go down so well as a film. So they glossed over a lot of that. But yes, after Commodus is assassinated, there’s a guy who steps in, who’s a guy called Pertinax, who is an older, older guy. As what seems to happen after a lot of assassinations and dodgy times in ancient Rome, you tend to get a kind of older person who kind of steps in as a kind of safe pair of hands. Afternoon goes. You have, you have Galba, who’s in his 70s, who’s held a lot of positions. He’s very well esteemed. He kind of steps in, you know, after Domitian is assassinated, we have Nerva, who’s similarly elder statesman, who steps in. And after Commodus, we have Pertinax, who’s that kind of older statesman who kind of steps in and to everybody’s and he starts to mop up what come with us is left, which is a big old mess. And everybody says he’s doing a really great job, and everybody’s very happy with personax, and the Praetorian Guard assassinate him pretty quickly into his reign.
Dr G 31:51 So he was, he was going all right with everybody else, but not with the people with the swords. Yeah.
LJ Trafford 31:57 And the reasons given are kind of one that they couldn’t because Pertinax was a very good emperor, they couldn’t profiteer in various ways, unspecified ways, that they had been under Commodus. And secondly, that their Praetorian Prefect, Clarus wasn’t a very good keeper of secrets, and this was their kind of justification for murder.They burst into the palace, and you know, Pertinax gave a series of arguments of why they shouldn’t assassinate him. And some of them were, you know, pretty good well. They were all pretty good arguments. And some of the guard were a bit, well, yeah, he’s right, you know, but they killed him anyway,
Dr G 32:31 because maybe we should let him live. I’m quite persuaded
LJ Trafford 32:34 by that argument. But we’ve come all this way. We’ve burst in, we’ve got our swords out. We may as well well, you know, as well. Now we’re here do what we set out to do. It’s the kind of least well thought out assassination in history, probably because they have no idea who’s going to take over. They haven’t planned it beyond we’ll just kill pertinax and then something will happen. I don’t know if they’re hoping the Senate will step in and appoint an emperor, but what happens is that most of Senators suddenly disappear to their country estates, I presume, to get out the way because they don’t want to be picked as emperor. The people who like pertinax, are rioting so much so the Praetorian Guard have to then go hide in their barracks up on the rumen or Hill, with kind of riots going on outside. So it’s a big old mess. And obviously the patron Guard are the Emperor’s private bodyguard and no emperor, no Emperor’s private bodyguard. So they need to find a new emperor. So they hit upon this scheme of, um, selling it. They’ll sell the post of Emperor to the highest bidder. People can come bid, and then they can become emperor. Which is, um, to
Dr G 33:37 our shiny auction guys, is going to be great. Which is the kind
LJ Trafford 33:42 of lowest? I mean, the Pretorian God have been the kind of Kim makers for a long time. They’ve helped people into the role of Emperor, and they’ve helped people out of it, shall we say, with swords. But this is the kind of lowest they sink. They’re kind of like we’re going to sell it to the highest bidder. And this kind of word reaches various people, and it reaches a dinner party, which a certain Didius Julianus is attending. And I’m assuming it’s towards the end of this dinner party when everybody is a bit tipsy, because it’s really the only, only explanation for what follows. And everybody’s Dinner Party says, Hey, DidiusJulianus, why don’t you go for it? Why don’t you go bid to be emperor? Come on, you’d be great in it. And he, you know, he’s got a pretty good background. He’s done all the relevant positions, and looked after Belgium for a while, and he was favoured by Marcus Aurelius. So he comes across on paper as not too bad, but yeah, listening to these kind of people at the dinner party, he thinks, yeah, why not? I’m going to be emperor. So they all chopped off, working their way through these riots that are going on somehow, up to the kind of touring barracks and stands outside, and he says, I want to be emperor. I’ll offer you all this money. And I think, I think the killer line is he offers the Pretorian Guard more gold than they had asked for and more gold than they expected.
Dr Rad 34:52 That sounds like a lot, an awful lot, which
LJ Trafford 34:55 should have sounded fishy, because the Praetorian Guard are notorious for demanding payment. Huge. Kind of bounties that don’t actually exist after Nero kind of died, and the Praetorian guard Nymphidius Sabinus demanded 30,000 sesterces for each one of his guards off Galba. They didn’t have the money for that. You know, there was no money to pay them. So they were renowned for asking for more than, you know, the most physically possible. But the fact that Julianus is promised to them more than they even expected, you know, should ring alarm bells that this is a bit fishy, but they they were just delighted, and they hauled him up into the Praetorian barracks and declared him emperor. You know, job done. Brilliant. Got new emperor. It’s all sorted. Only problem is, didis Juliana’s didn’t have that money. He didn’t have the money to pay them. He didn’t have the money to buy the emperorship. He was pretty much broke. It was all it was all bravado and wine. One has to assume,
Dr G 35:47 I was gonna say, maybe he’s been put up to it like, as the dinner party has progressed, people have been like, you know, pushing each other forward, and in the end, like he’s the one they all get behind. And he feels he has to go with it. I don’t know, but it seems like madness. It
LJ Trafford 36:01 seems like madness. And you have to wonder what he thought when he woke up the next day with a kind of killer hangover. I was like, What did I do? What did I say? And it comes back, it kind of flashbacks. Maybe, you know, kind of, oh yeah, I was at that party. Then what, what, you know, wakes up, maybe in the palace, where am I? And then suddenly realises that, you know, he’s emperor, the
Dr Rad 36:20 equivalent of the 90s, late night shopping via credit card, over the telephone, ordering, ordering sets of Ginsu knives and that sort of thing.
LJ Trafford 36:30 Yeah. What did I do last night? Oh, I brought the role of Emperor. Um, so he’s now emperor, which doesn’t go down well with anybody, because, um, everybody liked person act. So the people are still, when he goes down to, you know, be officially ratified, the people are kind of throwing stones at his head, you know. So from day one, I usually have to work to be unpopular, to be a Roman emperor, you know, Caligula, it took five years for it to completely unravel. You know, Commodus, it took many years to unravel. But from day one, you know, Julius did the honest is being kind of booed by the people, and there’s still riots going on and and then he finds out that in the provinces, several other people have declared themselves emperor as well. So he’s also, it’s another kind of oops moment, equivalent to kind of Otho after Galba, after he assassinated Galba you know, jogging up to the palace, the slaves hand him the correspondence. And, you know, he finds out there’s another emperor in Germany marching his direction, and you know, so Julianus is facing not one, but several. He’s got Septimius, Severus, and he’s got Niger, and I’m going to forget the other guy’s name. There’s no one. There’s three of them, and they’re all declared themselves emperor, and they’re all going to be heading his direction, all right,
Dr G 37:38 so he’s got some competition on his hands, on a number of fronts, it’s going to be a problem, good,
LJ Trafford 37:43 promise. So this is a point at which, you know, this is the point at which you find out what emperors are made of, what a man is made of. You’re facing adversity. Everybody hates you. You could turn this round. You could, you know, he’s got he’s got the background, he’s got the experience. He could turn this round. But he doesn’t. I think Herodian describes him as dumb and witless. He did not know how to resolve the situation. So he sends off um several envoys to me, Severus who, um, promptly changed sides, um. And this keeps happening. He keeps sending people to, you know, kind of negotiate with these other would be emperors. And they decide, Oh, this guy’s going to be a better one than Didius Julianus. And they stay so he keeps losing more of his army each time he tries to make situation better, he decides to have an army of elephants in Rome, and he puts except the elephants aren’t very well trained, and they don’t like their drivers, and they just keep tossing off the drivers that are riding them. So that doesn’t work. Cassius, Dio, who’s in he’s a senator at the time, is and he’s there in Rome, says the Senate were frequently overcome with laughter at kind of Didius Julianus’ attempts to kind of secure the city. So, yeah, everything he tries, just fails miserably. And Septimius Severus comes into Rome, bursts into, you know, the palace, and you know, he’s, he’s off, basically, he doesn’t last very long, but I think he definitely is up there with the worst emperor, just just for being, just for the way he became emperor shows moral fibre,
Dr G 39:15 that whole process of being like, well, if It’s for sale, yeah, I’ll buy.
LJ Trafford 39:22 I can do this.
Dr Rad 39:23 I think Duddius Julianus sounds like a better way of remembering him.
LJ Trafford 39:29 Just, and just yeah, just everything he tries is ridiculous and doesn’t work, and he can’t inspire loyalty in his own troops, in his own envoys, who are going off to negotiate. They’re kind of like, Oh yeah, you know, they’re very easily swayed by the other side. Yeah, you’re right. Probably we’ll stay here. I will stay here. So, yeah, it’s, it’s unintentionally hilarious, although Cassius Dio says it was hilarious, but he’s just not up to the job he failed. You know, he’s facing a difficult situation. Yeah, that would test any man, but he does not at all rise to the occasion. And. And produce anything of any work. It
Dr G 40:01 is a real challenge in this situation as well, because we’re dealing with the late second century, and by this stage, if you do not have, like, pretty strong military support, it’s very hard to sustain a power position. And Didius Julianus goes in and doesn’t have anybody at best, he’s got the Praetorian Guard, and then he has to build from there. And so that’s a bit of an issue, I’d say, because everybody else who’s coming at him from all of those different angles, have supported the troops. They’ve been elevated as Imperator from that sort of idea of the general ship being the basis of imperial power. And he doesn’t, and I, I wonder what he thinks, you say at best,
LJ Trafford 40:46 he’s got the Praetorian girl. This is the same Pretorian gone. He’s, he’s promised money to that he doesn’t have. So they don’t, yeah, exactly. He doesn’t even have them, you know, whereas, you know, someone like Otho was able, you know, against vastly superior odds, was able to inspire he had a ramshackle army of praetorian guards, new recruits and Gladiators, but they loved him, and he had the charisma, and he rose to the occasion, and he kept fighting for as long as he could against vastly overwhelming odds. Whereas Didius Julianus, he doesn’t have that same charisma. Clearly, he can’t get an army together. He hasn’t got any great ideas, and he’s got, even the elephants
are against him. But, I mean, it’s, I mean, that just sounds ridiculous. I didn’t argue with elephants as if that’s gonna stop, you know,
Dr G 41:33 I do like it, though it’s got that very, sort of, like, you know, what would work a real hark back to the days of Carthage and, like, you know, the Punic triumphs and things like this. So I can see where, like, the attraction might be in that idea. But obviously, you need to train those elephants quite well for them to be effective,
LJ Trafford 41:51 yeah, just, you know, they may as well have just said, Oh, it’s just cities, cats on them. Get cat on. It’ll work.
Dr G 42:02 That is an underrated, yeah.
LJ Trafford 42:07 Probably be more fate of elephants, I
Dr G 42:09 think, yeah. So we’ve got this sort of, like chaotic and short rule of Didius Julianus. And in a way, you would think that maybe nothing could top that. But then we get to one of the most intriguing emperors. And there is so little to be known about this guy that it’s it is worth mentioning. And I think you pronounce his name, Silbannacus. Silbannacus rules for a really, really short time. And this is in the third the mid third century CE so and this is a pretty unstable time for the Roman emperorship in general. There’s a whole lot of turnover when it comes to this top job. And I’m interested in what we know about Silbannacus, and how does he earn his place as a worst emperor? Well,
LJ Trafford 43:01 what do we know about Silbannacus? Almost nothing about Silbannacus. What we know about him comes from two coins that have been found, one in the 1930s and one in the 1980s and that is all the evidence we have for him ever being emperor. It doesn’t appear anywhere else now. You I mean, this could debate whether you usurp or was he an emperor, but looking at the coins, they look as if they’ve got similarities to coins that were minted in Rome. So they think he must have had some kind of ratification with Rome to be an emperor. But this is all we know about him. And it’s kind of like, how little do you have to do that nobody remembers you.
Dr G 43:40 Nobody remembers you. You don’t get mentioned in a written source that we know at all
Dr Rad 43:45 bitch about you. Yeah,
LJ Trafford 43:49 this is the kind of the crisis of the third century where we get Emperor after Emperor after emperor, and the kind of average rule of reign is something like 1.3 years or whatever. But they do all get a mention, at least for the way they died, or, you know, at least that they how they became emperor and how they died. Most of them get a mention, but he doesn’t appear anywhere. So I have to think, you know how insignificant a ruler you were, that nobody even cares how you died, even, you know. I mean, did he, yeah, was it a pleasure, you know, did was it a natural death, maybe, and that’s why it’s not worth recording. Or was it, was he assassinated by his own troops? Was he, you know, people care so little that it’s not recorded anywhere. And that’s kind of, I call him the book. I call him the Phantom Emperor because we were, you know, we’ve only known about him since the 20th century. But he makes his place as kind of worst Emperor because he’s so insignificant, so so nothing. He can’t have done anything of any note, not even died in any way of any note. Not even become emperor in any way of any note, because nobody notes it down, not even in passing, or, you know, in any other kind of document. When we may yet dig up a big chest somewhere in France and find, you know, all of all of this entire. Life story for all we know, but at this point in time, we know nothing about him. And I think if you leave that little imprint as emperor, then yeah, what was the point of you being emperor? You know, if a tree falls in wood and nobody hears it, did it ever fall? If you exactly nobody heard of it, were you ever emperor? And yeah, I wanted to include him, just because it just shows how reliant we are in certain periods on archaeological evidence, because there isn’t written evidence, because everything’s very chaotic. And yeah, I just think if nobody even records how you died or how you became emperor, you just you can’t have been any good. You must have been getting
Dr Rad 45:37 older. Yeah, it is kind of hard to believe that you could have someone who was emperor of the Roman world. And no details, nothing,
LJ Trafford 45:47 yeah, nothing, yeah. I find it. I find that staggering. And so I wanted to include him, just to show that, you know, it’s so chaos in the fifth century, you could become emperor. Nobody can
Dr G 45:58 notice. It’s also that sort of thing that makes me sort of start to speculate as well, where I think Did he sort of preemptively get some coins done up, but then died before he actually became emperor, like he was getting prepared for it. He knew it was coming, and then he died in the interim? Did he rule for like, two days or something like this? And something happened all of a sudden there was sort of outside of anybody’s control. But you would think even then, that might generate some sort of story that historians at the time would be interested in. And yet, nothing,
LJ Trafford 46:31 nothing. Yeah, it’s just yeah, it’s just Tumbleweed. Yeah, just just Tumbleweed. And like I said, that is intriguing itself. Why? Why do they not mention him? You know, maybe there is a an interesting mystery at the heart of that, but we will never know what it is unless there is a sudden discovery of a new coin that all kind of document explains everything,
Dr G 46:50 all right, archaeologists, the task has been set.
LJ Trafford 46:54 We need to know.
Dr Rad 46:56 So let’s now turn to the final emperor that makes the cut in your book, and that is Petronius Maximus, who, I think sounds like a delicious cocktail, but he holds power in 455, CE, he rates a description in your book as an evil genius. So we have to know what makes him both of those things, evil and a genius.
LJ Trafford 47:22 He’s a fascinating fellow, Petronius Maximus, because he he was one of those guys who seems to be very, very successful everything he turned his hand at he was brilliant. He’d held every single post possible. He’d had been in consul twice because he was so good at it. He was renowned for his dinner parties and for his literary pursuits. He was a man right at the top of his career, a man who’d done everything except being emperor and this. And the problem is, there already is an emperor at this time, a guy called Valentinian in the third who, um, he’s only in his 30s, I think, at this point. So he’s not likely to drop dead anytime soon. And there, and there are other people who are maybe a little bit more well respected than Petronius Maximus, but only just. There’s a general called Flavius Aetius, who’s very famous general who’s defeated Attila the Hun, no less, and so is held in very high esteem by Valentin the third. And is kind of intermarriage between those families. But for some reason, Petronius Maximus decides he wants to become emperor. And there’s kind of two, there’s kind of two stories behind this. One is that it’s revenge, because Valentine the third slept with his wife, or something like that. It’s all very vague and confusing. And the other is that he, he was just, he just wanted the crown. It was the one thing he hadn’t done. And I kind of, I kind of get it there. I get this because, yeah, I think, you know, as a writer, when you start writing, you kind of think, Oh, if I can just get published, that’s all I want. I just want to get my book published. And then that, you know, I’ll feel fulfilled then. And then it’s like, I just want one person to like my book, and then I’ll feel fulfilled. And then, you know, and then it goes on to, well, I want merchandise and a theme park based on my books, you know, an HBO 20 part TV series. And I want you kind of your ambitions grow with every small step you take, your ambitions grow. So I do kind of get why he thought he wanted to be emperor. But he goes about this in a very clever way. So the first thing he does is he gets um Flavius Aetius, a very famous general out of the way so he can step further closer to the throne. And he does this, and he’s not involved, and he doesn’t do the actual getting rid of Flavius Aetius. He somehow gets Valentinian, the third the Emperor, to kill Flavius Aetius. And it happens very suddenly. Aetiust is in a meeting, and it’s just an ordinary meeting about budgets and budgetary concerns and the finances and probably troop deployment, and just a general normal meeting, when suddenly the Emperor gets out his sword and goes running full pelte at Aetius and just murders him there and then in the middle of a meeting.
Dr Rad 49:54 That’s so Roman. That’s so Roman
LJ Trafford 49:57 with the help of his kind of standby eunuch as well, and they just hack him to death, you know, in the middle of a meeting. Oh,
Dr G 50:03 which is guys,
LJ Trafford 50:05 I mean, you know, I mean, we all know these meetings are boring about budgets and that, but made it a bit more exciting, it does
Dr Rad 50:12 give a whole meaning to the idea of cutting the budget.
LJ Trafford 50:18 So the prelude to this is Petronius Maximus, has spent a long time talking to Valentinian the third and kind of building up Aetius as a traitor, of somebody who was looking to overthrow him, who was a danger to him. And because Aetius was very popular, because he’s a very successful general. And so Valentinian the third, you know, is maybe quite right to be a bit worried about this. And it’s built up, and it’s built up, and his paranoia built up to this bit where he murders atheists, and so that gets him a bit closer to the throne. And then the next stage is getting rid of the Emperor himself. And this is made easier by Valentinian the third having killed Aetius because Aetius was very popular. So there was people there that he could hire or persuade to kill the Emperor because they wanted revenge. So it was a couple of guys who’d serve Aetius, who persuades to murder Valentinian the third, which they do, take him out, I think it’s a hunting trip, and they stab him to death, and that’s the end of him. So again, Petronius Maximus is not involved in this. He hasn’t got his hands dirty at all. So Valentinian the third is now dead, but it doesn’t naturally go to Petronius Maximus. He still has to bribe his way into power. So he still has to bribe a load of people, and then he’s made emperor. So he’s basically been made Emperor by offering two people and not getting his hands dirty at all. He’s got other people to do it for him, which is where, you know, like, kind of super, like a kind of Bond villain, you know, kind of sitting there with his minions doing the work for him. He’s managed to do, he’s managed to assassinate someone without getting his hands dirty and without being involved, and now he’s emperor. And you think that’s a very clever way of doing it, because he’s nobody’s blaming him for the death of both of those people. He’s got away with it, and he’s emperor, and then this rule just completely falls apart, like just overnight, so quickly and so disappointingly. Because you think, if he’s that clever, that he’s managed to get himself to this position by getting other people to his dirty work for him, you think, Oh, he’s going to be great emperor. He’s going to have lots of ideas. But he’s in a moment when he gets there, he’s not actually up to the job, and, oh no, he makes a fundamental error. And what he does is he marries um Valentinian the third’s wife, widow, widow, which now is widow, which she’s not happy about and also, also not happy about. This is the king of the vandals, um, whose name I’m probably going to butcher, Geiseric, because they’ve been, they’ve been, um, all kinds of battles between the vandals and the Romans. And they negotiated, Aetius negotiated peace. And Geiseric’s son was going to marry Valentinian the third’s daughter. So the murder of Valentinian the third is a kind of family matter to him now, so and an excuse, presumably, as well. Valentinian the third’s widow writes to Geiseric to ask for help, because she doesn’t want to be married to Petronius Maximus. And Geiseric sees an opportunity, and he launches the vandals. And the Vandals come and they sack Rome. This is one of the famous sackings of Rome. And Petronius Maximus are hearing this news the Vandals are heading towards responds even worse, and did his duty, honest. He doesn’t even try to muster a defence. He just legs it. He just hits on his horse and he legs it. But he’s spotted by people and some Imperial freedmen who are so disgusted at him doing a runner that they stone him to death there and then. So it’s, it’s an intriguing story, because it starts off so well, and you think he’s going to be a brilliant emperor, because, I mean, he’s very well qualified to be emperor. He’s got wonderful background. Everyone agrees he’s very clever, he’s very talented, he’s brilliant. And where he gets there, he’s brilliant. But first sign of trouble, he just folds. He just completely folds, and in the kind of sources, one of the things to say that he just didn’t realise what a step it was from being a senator to being emperor, and it’s compared to a story of a guy sitting at a beautiful banquet of all the best food you can imagine in your life, the best movie ever going to eat, but above your head is swinging an axe that could fall on your head at any minute. And that’s what being Emperor is like. And he didn’t know that. He didn’t realise, I think, that he would be the target that the minute he set took that step up from being an ordinary politician to being the head everything is your fault. You’re the full guy. You’re the guy that everybody’s heading for. And I think that that completely undid him. I mean, you think he would realise that if he’s been around kind of Imperial politics that long, but
Dr G 54:33 you would assume so, but, and he’s obviously got a lot of talent behind the scenes, so very much, one of those sort of people that is able to pull the strings of other people, so a great sort of, like, second in command, if you like, but maybe that step out into the sort of top gig itself. You can’t be in the shadows anymore. It’s much more difficult to be somebody who’s pulling the strings you are now the one whose strings are being pulled. Yeah,
LJ Trafford 54:58 you it was a. He was exposed. Essentially, he was exposed, and all eyes are on him. And, yeah, like you say, he works best in the shadow. He’s a manipulator. He’s, you know, he’s somebody who can pull the strings of other people, and work very has done very well there. But yeah, being exposed and then realising that everything is heading for him, personally, just him, not anybody else. It’s that hatchet, yeah, and that’s what being Emperor’s like that, you know, again, going back to paranoia of Caligula and Domitian, that hatchet are constantly above your head all the time. It can fall. And, yeah, he just met, I guess you got to say kind of mentally. He didn’t have the mental strength to cope with that.
Dr Rad 55:36 I can understand me, just because I think Game of Thrones has shown us this very well. There are some people that are suited to be the front man, and there are other people that are very good at being the helpers of the front man.
LJ Trafford 55:50 Yeah. And I think, yeah, I don’t think he realised, till he took that step, that fatal step, that he was an emperor material. And he didn’t realise what it meant to be emperor, it, yeah, until he took that step. And then, I guess he just panicked, panicked and, yeah, didn’t even try to try to rule in any sense. He just legged it
Dr G 56:12 was panicked, yeah, panicked and ran away. He panicked and
LJ Trafford 56:16 ran away. Yeah, which is, you know, which is even worse than Didius Julianus. At least, did his Julianus tried. He tried badly with elephants, etc, but at least he made an effort. He didn’t run away from the messy, mess he’d made, possibly, because he’s surrounded by Praetorian Guard at all times, he weren’t going to let him go without that gold. I was
Dr G 56:34 going to say, yeah, you always buddy. You got to stick around.
LJ Trafford 56:37 But yeah, he just, he just likes it. Just likes it. And it’s, yeah, I think it’s such, I think it’s such a surprising story of the kind of build up, the two assassinations that he engineers, and then yeah,
Dr G 56:49 for what they’re definitely expecting him to flourish, you know, yeah,
LJ Trafford 56:53 yeah, to have some really top ideas. But yeah, he just, he just folds. And I think that’s, I think that’s really interesting. And I think yeah, and that’s why I wanted to include him as a kind of worst emperor, because it’s that kind of like realisation of what being an emperor is, and realising that you don’t want a part, that you don’t want, that you thought you did, but it’s Be careful what you wish for. Is the message of Petronius Maximus. He got what he wished for and then immediately regretted it. Yeah,
Dr G 57:20 fair enough. I mean, I feel like I would be the same, to be honest, I would probably also run away. I’d be out of there. I’d be like, this was I’ve made a mistake, guys. So thinking about how all of these different characters that have come through the Roman emperorship lead us to gain some insight into the nature of being human. There’s certain strengths, there’s certain frailties that can be read and understood through those who hold power. And I’m interested in the lessons that you’ve taken away from studying these people, lessons,
LJ Trafford 57:59 I think in my conclusion, I think, in my book, I say I don’t have much of a conclusion. I think, I think what changes is what kind of person becomes Emperor over time. So you need a different skill set depending on what period of history you’re in. You know, we talk about Caligula, having them having to make up battles for him to fight, because there aren’t any, because it’s relatively, relatively kind of calm during that period. You know, you get onto the era of Petronius, Maximus and Valentinian the second it’s constant fighting third century crisis. Yeah. And like the kind of third century crisis, the people who come become emperor, people who have armies and who can inspire armies. And so that is a very different kind of skill set to what your Augustus and your Tiberius needed, which were kind of good administration, and kind of keeping the Senate, keeping the Senate on side, that becomes less and less important as kind of the the armies and the soldiers become more and more important. But yeah, I think what I learned from it, I think, yeah, I think there’s a lot of ways in which you can be worst. I think there is a kind of the unqualified way of you know people who, you know, Valentinian the second becomes Emperor when he’s about four, or something, you know, he’s clearly not qualified for the post. So there’s people who come in with no qualifications and no kind of background in what, what the job is, I would think, feature. Then there’s a people like Petronius Maximus, and then people like Gordian, the first to get the top job, and then at the first sign of trouble, just fold, who aren’t, kind of mentally prepared for it, I think, as well. Then you get the people that kind of the flaws in their personality, like kind of Caligula, that kind of fatal flaw of his awful childhood, that’s kind of influences how he behaves as emperor, and kind of do mission simile, having that, that kind of teenage years in Rome in a very tumultuous period, very frightening period, and his increasing paranoia influences how he behaves emperor. And then there’s the ones you know that on paper look like they’re going to be great emperors, but then just just aren’t. So people like Galba, who looks he’s got all the right qualifications to be emperor, but. All falls apart quickly. So there’s, there’s all manner of ways in which you can be a worst emperor. I’m not sure there’s one way, but, yeah, I think it, it’s about personality, I think, at the end, and that is set up by kind of Augustus, who has the charisma and the strength of personality to build this thing called emperor and to hold it together. And then down to Tiberius. He’s got the skill set, you know, even if he’s not got the charisma, he’s got the administrative ability to kind of, and the fear factor of keeping people in line. But then when later on, you get people who just are not the right personality for the times. So I think, yeah, you need a different personality for a different each of the eras, kind of, in ancient Rome, you need to be the strong man, the hard man, the general in the kind of third century you need to be the acute, charismatic politician in the first century, it kind of changes as Rome changes, which is a bit a very waffling answer to, I don’t really know.
Dr G 1:00:55 I think, I think it’s good, because it gives us a sense that it is about the context, like everything is affected by that first and foremost, and then it is what you’re bringing to the table as an individual. And it’s like, if there is a good marriage between what that context requires and the strengths of your character and your background, you might be able to make it work, but it’s a risky thing every single time, every Emperor is always in that delicate balancing act across the whole course of their rule to make it work, because there’s so many things that they’re trying to hold together, and so many people have to fall in line. So it’s,
Dr Rad 1:01:36 it’s a yes, yeah.
LJ Trafford 1:01:39 I think I also I kind of learned, is that you can, I think the line between being a worst Emperor best Emperor is really quite thin. You can spin a lot of people either way, and the historians certainly do. And I think you could probably make a case for any emperor as the worst emperor. If you look at it, you could take Augustus and say, Well, you know, he dismantles the kind of Republic. Let’s enter the report. Republic, you know, if his morality, legislation, you know, kind of bites him in the bum with his own daughter, and he’s ruthless, he’s, you know, he’s not very nice. Morally, he’s deflowering virgins in his 70s. That’s not very, you know, Roman morality, is it? Um, you could take anyone like you take Trajan, you know, oh, he drank too much. You’re like boy boys, you know, you can take anybody and you can spin it and make them a worse temper. And I think that’s what’s interesting as well. I mean, the way in which you become a Western Emperor is basically but having nobody to write up your story well. So you need that successor, that person who’s going to write your story up well and kind of gloss over the lesser aspects of your personality and beef up the bigger ones. But I think, yeah, I think it’s a fine line between the good and the bad. I like
Dr Rad 1:02:46 the idea that the historians are the ones with the real power here. Yeah,
LJ Trafford 1:02:53 they can spin the story. Yeah, they’re spinning the stories and deciding who’s best and worst. So we shouldn’t really believe them over
Dr Rad 1:03:01 We’re all liars, as our name suggests, the partial historians. So on that note, where can people find your book?
LJ Trafford 1:03:14 Usual book outlets, Amazon, etc, online. Just Yes, ancient Rome’s worst emperors, available. And
Dr Rad 1:03:20 tell us. Do you have any exciting secret, upcoming projects? Maybe the eldre Trafford theme park coming up.
LJ Trafford 1:03:30 If only I want, yeah, I want merchandise is what I want. I think I’m coming actually. I’m stepping out of Hmong for the next book. Briefly, I’m doing sex and sexuality in ancient Greece. Oh, that would be exciting, which you’ll pair nicely with the one I did in ancient Rome, which is interesting, very interesting. And it’s very different. And there’s some good differences there. So good differences. And, yeah, I kind of think the Greeks get away with too much. I think
Dr G 1:03:59 because you’ll rein them in, I’m sure, with your whole democracy
LJ Trafford 1:04:02 and politics and art being the cradle of civilization, I think we give them, I think we rose tint them, and then we look at Romans, and we go, oh, geez, emperors, soldiers, gladiators. And yeah, I think it’s time to it’s time for the ancient Greeks to be to be exposed. I was gonna
Dr G 1:04:19 say, pull away the veil and reveal Ancient Greece. Well, that sounds exciting. I’m looking forward to that one coming out so we can delve in. Well, thank you so much, LJ, for joining us and taking us on a potted tour of the worst emperors. This is by no means all the Emperors that mentioned in your book, and so we definitely encourage people to seek out your excellent work and to enjoy some of these fascinating tales.
LJ Trafford 1:04:50 Thank you for having me. It’s been a ball.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 152 - Victory at Last!
Jul 11, 2024
Whilst 401 BCE was a tense year inside ancient Rome, we can assure you that there will be a plebeian win to close the year. Victory at last!
Episode 152 – Victory at Last!
Surrounded by Enemies
The Romans were facing war with several enemies, thanks to Capena and the Falerii joining their conflict with Veii. And they weren’t going to take the loss of Anxur lying down. This calls for the mother of all levies! The magistrates had to try and enlist any man they could get their hands on, young or old. Rome needed to make sure all her bases were covered at home and abroad.
The catch was that a larger army required an increase in funding. Rome was apparently paying soldiers now, right? The military tribunes with consular power came up with a genius plan – a war-tax! What form did this tax take? Crops? Bronze? Your first-born child? The only thing we can rule out is coinage, as the Romans were not using that yet.
Regardless of the mode of payment, the people were distinctly displeased by this new policy. They were already having to work extra hard with so many men serving in the army. And of course, the tribunes of the plebs were NOT HAVING IT. This was a total scam.
Rome Just Can’t Get Enough
With the people all riled up over these issues, the elections for the tribunes of the plebs fell flat. Not enough men were elected to fill the positions. The patricians saw an opportunity to try to weasel their way into the office, but they didn’t get away with that. However, they did manage to convince the newly elected tribunes to co-opt some colleagues that had been given the patrician stamp of approval.
This was in direct conflict with the Trebonian Law of 448 BCE, which was meant to prevent anyone being co-opted. As luck would have it, one of the descendants of the original Trebonius who had championed this law was serving as tribune in 401, and he vigorously protested this violation.
The people were furious about these signs of corruption and the three tribunes who had colluded with the patricians knew they needed to come up with a distraction. Why not turn everyone’s attention to Sergius and Verginius? They had made such a mess of things in 402 BCE. They were the perfect scapegoats.
Conflict of the Orders?
Tensions remained high throughout 401 BCE as Sergius and Verginius were put on trial, the tribunes fought the war-tax and the men on the frontlines weren’t getting paid. Somewhere in this strange mixture of collusion and conflict between the patricians and plebeians, something momentous was brewing…
Dr G and Dr Rad are celebrating the election of the first military tribune with consular power.
Touchdown!
Publius Licinius Calvus became the FIRST official plebeian to be elected as military tribune with consular power, set to serve in 400 BCE. Victory at last, Licinius, victory at last.
We’re excited – can you tell?
If you want to know why he was the chosen one, you’ll need to tune in next time! The suspense….
Need to catch up on Sergius and Verginius’ epic bitch fight? Listen to our previous episode on 402 BCE.
Things to Look Out For:
Clever use of diversions
Laws being broken
SO MANY potential anachronisms
The spectre of the Gracchi appearing from the late Republic – again!
Suspiciously momentous events happening right at the end of the century
Our Players for 401 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
L. Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c. p. 414, 406, 403, 398
M. Furius L. f. L. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 398, 394, 386, 384, 381
M’. Aemilius Mam. f. M. n. Mamercinus (or Mamercus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c. p. 405, 403
Cn. Cornelius P. f. A. n. Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 406. 404
K. Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. y p. 404, 395, 390
L. Iulius L. f. Vopisci n. Iulius (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 397 [Paulus Sextus]
Tribune of the Plebs
M. Acutius
P. Curiatus
C. Lacerius
M. Metilius
M. Minucius
Cn. Trebonius
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy 5.10-12.
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.44.1; and Fasti Capitolini.
Arizza, M., Rossi, D. 2022. ‘The territory between Veii and Rome in the Archaic period: Rural structures as territorial markers of cultural frontiers’ Frontière.s, Revue d’archèologie, histoire et histoire de l’art Volume 6: 49-62. https://journals.openedition.org/frontieres/1297
Bartolini, G., Michetti, L. M. 2019. ‘Veii During the Archaic Period (Sixth and Fifth Centuries BCE)’, in Tabolli, J, Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 107-116.
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Raaflaub, K. A. 2006. Social struggles in archaic Rome: new perspectives on the conflict of the orders (2nd ed). (Wiley).
Smith, C. 2019. ‘Furius Camillus and Veii’, in Taboli, J., Cerasuolo, O. (eds.) Veii (University of Texas Press), 219-224.
Sound Credits
Our music is by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sound.
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad 0:15 Music. Welcome to the partial historians.
Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome,
Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr rad and
Dr G 0:33 I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:57 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G,
Dr Rad 1:05 and I am Dr Rad,
Dr G 1:07 And we are exploring Rome from its foundation, and we are up to 401. BCE.
Dr Rad 1:15 Indeed we are Dr G. Now before we get into this particular year in ancient Roman history, looking at our different sources, let’s do a very, very quick recap of the previous year, which was 402, BCE, I think I can sum it up very succinctly. There was a lot of fighting between two of the military tribunes with consular power, and it led to them massively embarrassing themselves in front of all of Rome.
Dr G 1:41 Awkward, awkward, yeah. Look, I think the thing that I talked about was the archeological record for what is happening between Veii and Rome from this time period, just to give some different context to what this relationship is like between these two places which are not very far from each other?
Dr Rad 2:04 No, they are not all right. So now that we done 402 we can dive straight into 401 BC, ah.
Dr G 2:36 401 BC, it is quite the time to be alive. There are six military tribunes with consular power. And
Dr Rad 2:46 I also have some names for some tribunes of the plebs. They’re not just faceless opponents anymore.
Me too. This is very exciting. It is all right. So tell me who are the military tribunes with consular power this year. All right,
Dr G 2:58 first cab off the rank, Lucius Valerius Potitus.
Dr Rad 2:58 Heard of this guy before.
Dr G 3:05 We have seen this guy before. Previously, military tribune with consular power in 414, 406 and 403 so this is his fourth time in the job. I hope he’s good at it. We also have Marcus Furius Camillus.
Dr Rad 3:23 Ah. Now this will be a famous name, not quite famous yet, not
Dr G 3:27 quite famous yet. So I feel like we’ve been touching on the edges of this guy. He was previously listed
Dr Rad 3:35 naughty, naughty.
Dr G 3:38 He was previously listed as a military Tribune with consular power in 403, but 401 this year seems to be a more secure date for this guy, sure. So we will see
Dr Rad 3:51 the cusp of his career
Dr G 3:53 every time I think he’s about to start. We also have Manlius Aelius Mamercinus slash Mamercus, depending on how you like to spell it, yeah. He’s
Dr Rad 4:07 actually held a consulship before, hasn’t? He? Very fancy.
Dr G 4:11 Was consul in 410 and previously also a military Tribune with consular power in 405 and 403 nice. Yeah, so you know, he’s been about traps. In addition, we have Gnaeus Cornelius, Cossus also previously a military Tribune with consular power in 406 and 404 Kaeso Fabius Ambustus also previously held the position in 404 and finally, Lucius, Julius Vopisci Iulius.
Dr Rad 4:46 He’s about the only one that doesn’t seem super familiar. All the rest obviously, repeat customers.
Dr G 4:52 Siege times. I think so. I mean, if there’s anything to indicate to us that they. Might be a siege. I feel like it would be the fact that we’ve got some really recurring players right now,
Dr Rad 5:05 yeah. But also, I think probably the fact that the previous military tribunes of the consular power basically got dismissed from office in disgrace. I think that’s another reason why the Romans might like to have some experienced people, yeah,
Dr G 5:19 fair enough, yeah. Let’s get the experience guys out on the field, and let’s get this victory happening
Dr Rad 5:25 absolutely now, I believe we both agree that there are also some tribunes to talk about here. There are, but
Dr G 5:31 before we go into that, let me just mention, and I know you will be unsurprised by this, but all of these guys holding this military tribunate With consular power are patricians?
Dr Rad 5:43 Well, just goes without saying, doesn’t it? Dr G, do you want any grubby little plebeians getting any power?
Dr G 5:48 Only people from the elite know how to wield the sword
Dr Rad 5:51 Exactly, exactly anyway.
Dr G 5:53 So the tribunes are the plebs. We’ve got some. There’s a whole bunch of them. For some reason, all of a
Dr Rad 5:58 sudden, we go from just having faceless people trying to cause problems to like, what is it? Six? Yeah,
Dr G 6:03 I think it’s much easier, from a narrative perspective, to be able to be like, Oi Marcus. Stop it bizarre. So our tribunes of the plebs. Now listeners take note of these names, not the first names, because they’re all pretty standard, but the last names for these guys give us a real sense that we’re dealing with different families. So we’ve been really used to seeing patrician family names come up and get repeated over and over to the point that we’re confused. Is one Claudius better than another Claudius?
Speaker 1 6:35 No? Like the Amelii or the Valerii, yeah, like all
Dr G 6:40 of the guys that we just mentioned, those names have been in the rotation quite a lot in very simple, yeah, exactly.
The Furii? How can I not mention them? Camillus is one of those Furii.
Exactly. And these guys, these tribune of the plebs, are all coming from different family lines, which give us a sense of the perhaps, what is the broadening birth structure that also is equivalent to class, potentially, that is going on in Rome at this point in time. So we have Marcus Acutius, Publius Curiatius, Gaius Lacerius, Marcus Metelius, Marcus Minucius, which might be maybe the closest that we
Speaker 1 7:23 get. That’s right, yeah, that’s the only one I’ve ever heard of before. Yeah. And you may
Dr G 7:27 have also heard of Gnaeus Trebonius. That’s true, the Trebonius name, yeah. So these groups of names, Acutius, Curiatius, Lacerius, Metilius. These are just names that sound Latin, but they don’t come to us through this sort of patrician lineup that we’re used to seeing. Yes,
Dr Rad 7:48 absolutely. Well, Dr, G, 401, the reason why we might have so many named characters is that it is a bumper year for Rome. It’s like they know it’s the end of the century.
Dr G 8:01 You gotta give people something juicy for the end of the century.
Speaker 1 8:05 Yeah. So there’s a lot of war going on in this year. We, of course have the siege against they but there’s also going to be Capena and Falerii involved in that. And we’ve also got war against the Volscians on the horizons, because, of course, the Romans just lost Anxur, which they had stolen from the Volscians, but they consider it theirs now, and they want it back.
Dr G 8:28 I see very intriguing. Well, I have almost next to nothing or like, what
Dr Rad 8:34 happened I was gonna say, are you really gonna chime in here?
Dr G 8:37 I mean, I do have some things to tell you, but I will maybe hold off on most of them, except for one, if I may, okay, be bold initially, sure. So I just want to have a bit of a throwback to the Lex Trebonia of
Dr Rad 8:52 448, that is going to come into my narrative later. If you, Oh, you want me to hold tight? Well, it’s up to you. It does come in, but just not until a bit later. Okay, I
Dr G 9:02 only mention it because we’ve just listed all of the tribune of the plebs, and there’s a connection there. But I can, I
Dr Rad 9:07 promise. I can hold on. It’ll be just a moment, and then we’ll be there. Patience, patience. Background, yes, okay, before we deal with all the war that’s on the horizon for Rome, naturally, there are some internal issues that we have to deal with, of course, yeah. Now, I think you can probably guess what these revolve around. They’re kind of standard issues for Roman society, apparently, which is that if you want to fight a war, you need to have a levy.
Dr G 9:35 I hate that. That’s very annoying. You’ve got to round up people. Get them on board. Yeah, get them excited. Now there’s going
Dr Rad 9:40 to be an issue about that, and I’ll explain what it is in a moment. There’s also an issue, though, around the fact that people are apparently now paying a war tax,
Dr G 9:49 excuse me, yeah, that’s never been mentioned before, a war tax.
Dr Rad 9:54 Look, this is, I think, revolving around the issues around funding that we’ve been talking about. You know, the fact that they’ve introduced. Use Military Pay, and that’s the thing, the money has to cut from somewhere.
Dr G 10:03 Are you? Wait a minute. Yeah, wait a minute. Wait, wait.
Dr Rad 10:06 Question the narrative. Wait, wait, wait. Question, the
Dr G 10:08 narrative. No, no. Hold up. You’re telling me, first of all, people are getting paid. So, I mean, this is something we’ve talked about a little bit. Now, that’s fine, but who’s now paying for the pay. It’s being paid through through taxation. Who’s getting taxed to pay for the pay? This
Dr Rad 10:26 is the issue that the tribunes brought up when originally the idea of military pay was introduced. So like, Sure, these guys, who are all elite and stuff, might be contributing to get a scheme off the ground, but who’s going to be paying for it long term, it’s going to have to be financed from somewhere, looking at you guys, and this is the whole issue that they were talking about when they were saying, follow the money. This is exactly what people are having issues with. Now, I feel
Dr G 10:52 like there’s been a lack of transparency, and I have not seen the legislation get passed. It’s obviously highly questionable. Rome is not functioning like a proper Republic right now. Yeah,
Dr Rad 11:03 it’s all highly questionable, of course, because what would they be paying the tax in? How would they be paying the taxes? All sorts of questions that we want to really
Dr G 11:10 in the aes rude that I talked about last episode, giant pieces of bronze made of rectangles. Yeah, exactly.
Dr Rad 11:17 Rome doesn’t have coinage at this point in time. It’s all very confusing, but I need to proceed with my narrative. So if you would please, okay, the military tribunes, of course, want to levy the troops, and naturally they’re going to be recruiting young men, standard so far, so good. But they start enlisting older men too, because they want to make sure that Rome itself is to be protected,
Dr G 11:42 enlisting older men too. Why? Hello there, Rome.
Dr Rad 11:47 Now the issue of military pay becomes difficult at this point, because they’re widening the levy. Because, obviously, the more men you’re enlisting, the more money you need to pay for this army also,
Dr G 11:59 is it the same men that you’re levying that you need to pay for the pay?
Dr Rad 12:03 Well, this is where it gets confusing. So this is why they need to pay for it by collecting a tax. This is where the tax comes into it. So you see, oh, yeah, completely logical so far. Yeah, the Roman citizens aren’t thrilled about paying this tax because they’re already having to help the war effort in generally and, you know, protecting the city and that sort of thing. And that sort of thing, and just working for the benefit of Rome in general. They don’t feel like they should have to pay a tax. On top of that, the tribunes of the plebs, of course, come charging in at this moment. They sniff an opportunity. They accuse the senators of planning this all along. The senators were clearly intending to wreck everybody’s life by not only make half of the citizen body serve in the army, they were then going to tax the rest to death,
Dr G 12:51 right? Okay, well, that does sound rather dramatic coming from the tribune of the plebs. I mean, the problem for the elites is if they tax you to death, or they send you to wars and you all die. Yes, is that there is no one for the elite to parade around in front of and pretend they’re better than
Dr Rad 13:07 Yes. Well, look, they don’t stop there. They say, clearly, you are also behind the siege at Veii lasting this long, it is your fault so that it is being strung out this long, it’s because you have been mismanaging this whole affair that it’s dragged on as long as it has, and now you have the nerve to levy armies for four wars, resorting to using mere boys and the elderly, who I presume are people in their 40s and 50s as Well, forcing the plebeians to serve all winter and work all year round, and now a tax on top of all of that. So let me just get this straight. The plebs work their guts out and fight themselves into early graves, whilst neglecting their own lives and their own properties. And finally, if they’ve managed to return, and they get a chance to put their feet up, they have to pay our tax. I mean, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes a military pay situation laughable. The idea that’s benefiting anyone
Dr G 14:16 Say it ain’t so!
Dr Rad 14:20 now, if you’re sensing that there’s some Gracchan parallels here, I would say yes, yes, there are
Dr G 14:28 Livy. What are you doing?
Dr Rad 14:30 Look, it’s, once again, that whole idea of, you know, controlling land, looking after land, all of that kind of stuff that comes into it. So the people were completely consumed by these issues, and around the time that they are trying to process this whole levy tax situation, this is when the tribunes of the plebs are having their elections. Okay? And they actually didn’t have enough men elected to the office, which means and. This is, I think, where we’re going to come into what you’re talking about here. They start playing with the idea that patricians be allowed to be introduced to the magistracies, to fill the spaces. And I think this is where your Trebonian Law thing is going to come in.
Dr G 15:15 I interject, throwback, 448, I know it’s clear in all of our minds. Like was yesterday, yeah, practically yesterday we recorded the year 448 in 2021 Wow. It was a little while back. So something unusual does take place that year. So Livy records that two patrician ex-consuls are elected to serve as tribunes of the plebs in that year. There’s doubt about the accuracy of that claim. Fair enough. It’s Livy. It’s a it’s a weird time period. We’re not sure about most things to do with this century, and we’re right at the end of it. But there is this sense that people get up in arms about this concept. So some of the new tribunes had been consulting with patricians, and then there’s this sort of co-option that sort of takes place. So it’s getting messy. So it seems like there is a way in which the patricians have seen an opportunity to potentially undermine the tribune of the plebs by bringing themselves into it, yes, and the problem with that is that the plebeians are not going to stand for it. So Lucius Trebonius pushes for a law. Now, the name trebonius, we assume, must be a plebeian name, and we get another trebonius this year as well. So
Dr Rad 16:42 coincidence, I think. No, no, I
Dr G 16:44 do think so. Lucius Trebonius pushes for a law that stipulates that elections for tribune of the plebs need to continue until no fewer than 10 tribunes of the plebs are elected, and they should be plebeian. Yeah. So he ends up getting given a cognomen Asper (Prickly), in recognition of his fight to keep patrician power in check. So that’s the kind of broader context. And here we are in 401 and all of a sudden we’ve got another Trebonius in there, but we’ve also got this sense that maybe the patricians are looking to get another foothold, because obviously the critique that’s being leveled at them right now is severe. It is that you’re pushing everybody to the brink of their livelihood and their economic capacity, and for what you’re sitting outside they and your generals, your upper class guys are sitting there having little infights with each other rather than getting on with it. Yes, and the result of that is more lost life, losing places like unksel Because you’re not watching them properly and you want to tax us for your mistakes. Yes, like you get to be in charge if you don’t fuck it up,
Dr Rad 18:03 as RuPaul would say, yes, exactly. I think that’s how things are kind of being set up. So we basically have these guys, Marcus Acutius and Gaius Lacerius, who are selected for the office after they couldn’t find enough people. And it said that these guys are definitely chosen because of patrician influence, and this is what sparks the current day Trebronius, as in the one that’s actually around in 401, to defend the Trebronian Law, obviously, because it has to do with his family in particular, and he wants to make sure that this law about the cooptation is being upheld. So this guy claims that the law is being ignored. And he’s correct, and manages to create, obviously, a lot of unhappiness, because for the patricians to be taking away these positions and ignoring a law that’s obviously to do with plebeian rights, it’s a bad situation. So people are also really mad now at all the tribunes of the plebs except Trebronius, of course, whether they were the ones who were doing the co-opting or they were co-opted into it at this point in time, and there’s just a lot of tension within Rome about the whole situation. So the three tribunes of the plebs, who had been leaned on by the patricians, are extremely worried about this situation. And this is Publius Curatius, Marcus Metilius and Marcus Minucius, and they decide what they’re going to do is to distract people about the whole issue of co optation. Obviously, I think people are mad, because presumably it means that these current tribunes of the plebs were obviously under patrician influence as well, even though they might not have been patricians themselves, they decide they’re going to prove themselves and distract people by going after Sergius and wagenius, you might remember as the military tribunes with consular power who were causing so many dramas last episode, and caused this huge military problem because they were fighting amongst themselves, and they decided, look, we can channel all the negativity that people are feeling surrounding the election of the tribunes of the plebs and the water. And everything into a particular trial against these two guys, and these guys will be the scapegoat, all right,
Dr G 20:06 so this is in some respects a distraction tactic away from the CO option of a couple of these tribunes as sort of stooges for the patricians by challenging some other patricians at trial. Yes,
Dr Rad 20:21 I think this is exactly okay. I think we’ve got the noble trebonius, you know, the holder of his family’s legacy, as being the one who’s sort of speaking out against what’s happening. The others obviously seem like they have taken some sort of patrician bribe or something like that in order to make this happen. So there’s all that ill feeling happening. So they decide, let’s put these guys on trial. These three tribunes say that Sergius and Virginius are the problem and that they’ve just been pointing fingers at each other for this whole mess. They say it’s probably something that was set up in advance by the patricians or the senators, because it is just too hard to believe the insanity that happened in the previous year, that they would allow the army from Veii to set fire to what the Romans had built. They obviously want the water drag on. So, yeah, exactly. This is like they’re it’s not just incompetence. This is a deliberate plan, and that they had basically just given things up to the Faliscans, who had joined in on the side of Veii at this point in time, the patricians, therefore, must be trying everything to use they to stop any other advances from happening for the plebeians. So they is basically one huge Sideshow to stop questions about land reform, to stop the plebeians from having lots of people at their assemblies because they’re all too busy out fighting, you know, they’re all too busy serving in the army, to stop them from being able to foil an evil patrician conspiracy.
Dr G 20:21 Oh, the struggle of the orders. It’s not over, my friends.
Dr Rad 22:10 And basically they’re saying that the Roman men had to fight their way back to the city because of what Sergius and Verginius had done. It’s all the fault of these incompetent men. Like, how are these people, the ones that are in power? And whilst the gods are not necessarily directly punishing Sergius and Verginius, they’re saying, Come on, Romans, let’s use this opportunity which the gods have provided for us to seek our vengeance against what they have done, wow, conspiracy. Dr, G, yeah. And it goes deep.
Dr G 22:44 I’m feeling it all the way, all the way to the top, to the gods themselves. Yes,
Dr Rad 22:48 yes, exactly. Now the plebeians find them guilty fairly quickly. Well, well, well. And they order them each to pay a fine, of which I have given the precise figure of 10,000 pounds of bronze. Oh, that’s quite a lot Nice. Sergius tries to blame fortune, saying that it’s really just this that’s to blame. War is unpredictable. It’s a matter of chance. You know exactly. Stuff happens. What do you expect? Stuff happens. You
Dr G 23:15 roll the dice, and sometimes you win, and sometimes they marches on your army, exactly.
Dr Rad 23:23 So Verginius is like, yeah, look, you know, the whole thing last year was pretty bad already. Haven’t I suffered enough without being put through all of this as well?
Dr G 23:34 Wow, two very different responses, like, I’ve been having a tough time, guys. And you know, you know what this trial has made me realize just how tough a time I’m having?
Dr Rad 23:44 Yeah, exactly. And it kind of works in that it seems that the whole issue of tribunes being co opted, the fact that the Trebonian Law is being ignored, that kind of seems to fall to one side, and the tribunes of the plebs decide that the people should capitalize on the fact that they seem to be on a roll with patrician vengeance at this point in time. We took down two and who’s next, exactly. And so they decide, what better time than now to have a land law campaign? Oh,
Dr G 24:14 yes, let’s get the agrarian campaign back on the agenda. Yeah,
Dr Rad 24:18 exactly. And they also say, and while we’re at it. Let’s just do away with the war tax. Let’s say no to the war tax, even though the money is desperately needed now to fund all the armies. They’re like, well, the armies aren’t really achieving anything decisive, so let’s just forget all about
Dr G 24:34 that. Now this sounds like potentially the kind of moment where the tribute of the plebs could shoot themselves in the foot. Yeah? Being like, Look, if we don’t pay the war tax, that will teach the patricians who’s who around here, and then Veii turns up at their doorstep and they don’t have anybody because they haven’t been able to levy anybody, because they’ve got no money anymore.
Dr Rad 24:56 Yeah, and the issue is that the Roman army is having. Some successes, like, certainly nothing definitive, which is what the tribunes are saying. They’re like, Well, yeah, like they might be doing okay, but it’s okay, good enough for attacks. I don’t think so. So it seems that Manius Aemilius and Kaeso Fabius, they’re in Veii. They’re dealing with the siege, and they are under them the army managers to retake everything that they had lost, so the camp that they lost in the previous year. And they are also building up their defenses, building fortresses, garrisons, the whole work. So things are going back fairly well at ve then we have Marcus Furius, who is fighting against the Faliscans at this moment in time. We have Gnaeus Cornelius fighting in Capena. And these, of course, are the two groups that have joined vague, because they realized they were next in line. Didn’t have decisive conflict with the enemy, but they managed to attack their land, burnt their houses, their crops, did not attack any towns, but, you know, they’ve done some destruction and that sort of thing. Okay, so general pillaging or whatnot, yeah? Okay, yeah. And then we have Valerius Potitus, who’s fighting against the Volscians and attempting to retake Anxur. Now, it
Speaker 2 26:08 hasn’t exactly worked, but they haven’t been beaten off, and so they again establishing themselves defensively, you know, building a stockade and a trench and that sort of thing. So it could not be worse timing with the Romans having all these men out in the field that the tribunes are causing problems back home over the issue of paying these guys. Yeah, I was going to say, so it sounds like we’ve got some real military grind work going on out in the field. And I think what’s interesting here is the idea that it has not taken very long for this introduction of military pay, which still might be up for being disputed at this point, for it to turn into narratively, to something that must occur in order for war to take place. Like you can’t do a levy anymore, it would seem, unless there’s going to be a guarantee of payment. Yes, war, attack.
Dr Rad 27:03 However, in the narrative that we’ve got, the unhappiness from within the city starts spreading because, of course, the soldiers aren’t getting paid, which is what they have apparently been promised. And so they’re getting all antsy because they’re not getting what they thought they were going to be getting. And so obviously, patricians and plebeians are like at each other’s throats because of this situation that is having a ripple effect all throughout the city and all throughout wherever Romans are serving. The tribunes of the plebs call on the people to re establish liberty. They say, We no longer want patricians like Sergius and meginius getting into power because they’re rubbish. Quite frankly, look at what a shocking job they’ve done. They’ve just been found guilty of obviously negligent, like some sort of treason, basically against the state, or something like that, and they’re calling out their fellow pabeans to make sure that these sorts of men can never get elected again. And Dr G, it’s a moment. It’s a historic moment, a plebeian gets elected for the following year as a military tribune with consular power. Oh my, I know I feel like it’s a moment to celebrate. Where’s the champagne?
Dr G 28:13 We must have a moment of silence.
Dr Rad 28:16 Unbelievably, that it takes this, it takes this level of incompetence, and also, seemingly the tribunes of the plebs being very sneaky, that we finally get a military Tribune with consular power being elected from the plebeian class right at the turn of the century. I was
Dr G 28:36 going to say how narratively convenient terms of our timeline. I know
Dr Rad 28:42 it’s almost as though Livy planned somebody
Dr G 28:44 writing history a lot further away from the events and maybe tweaking things so that they happen on a specific timeline. Oh,
Dr Rad 28:54 and with particular families as well. I mean, a trebonius being around to protest the fact that his ancestor’s lore is being overturned. The fact that at the time of the original lex Trebonia, there was a Verginius who was a consul, and now we have another one who’s involved in the story the names as well of the tribunes of the plebs, it doesn’t really make sense for this patrician plebeian divide. Okay, what
Dr G 29:21 you’re trying to tell me is that truth is stranger than fiction. I know it’s hard
Dr Rad 29:25 to believe, but as we’ve highlighted a number of times, one of the biggest issues with trying to unravel the patrician versus plebeian divide in ancient Rome is the fact that the names don’t always match up. So we have had in the past people serving as consuls or military tribunes with consular power, who seem to be from plebeian families, which doesn’t seem to make any sense at all. And then, of course, we also have people who are tribunes of the plebs who come from what we know as being patrician families. In this particular instance. So, for example, we think it must be the Curiatii Minucii. It seems like they should be patricians at this point in time, in terms of their where their family’s situated. So the fact that they’re serving as Tribune to the plebs, it’s all very confusing. The Metilii, we don’t even think they’ve arrived in Rome at this moment, and yet somehow they’re in the mix
Dr G 30:21 so in terms of thinking about like, what are the fundamental issues here? It’s like, it’s the access to information that could be construed in as any way reliable at this point in time by the people who are writing this source material that we are so lucky to have. And this puts me in mind of some of the things that come up in the scholarship and through further research that people have done around the nature of language and what is going on here. So I don’t have any sources. The best I’ve got for you is some Diodorus Siculus to let you know what’s going on in Sicily, in Sicily. But what I do have is some names and the way that they come through in some of our source material that perhaps suggests that there’s so little that we really know. So you might recall that the king Servius Tullius has an alternative name which is completely different. Yes, this Macstrna, yeah, which he’s Etruscan self. Yeah, he’s Etruscan name, which is recorded and sometimes associated with him, but doesn’t have anything in appearance or sound to do with Latin, by the looks of it. But then we have other figures that come through, that come through the Etruscan record as well. There is a Marce Camitinas, who we think becomes Camillus, yeah, and he’s depicted in a painting of the Vulci, and is in a tomb. There is also the other Etruscan name, Cneve Tarchunies Rumach, which seems to be the name of the Tarquinii. And so even at the point of the level of like, who’s who, and the best we’ve got, besides Livy and other source material that might be writing from a much later perspective, is this Fasti Capitolini, which we lean heavily on as an artifact, but itself is quite late, yes, as well. And so teeing up these kinds of names, and then having a source like Diodorus Siculus, who’s clearly been in touch with some of the Latin evidence, but doesn’t always get it right, and then knowing that the Etruscans have their own system of language, and write down names that sound like they’re going to become Latin names to us, and there seem to be some parallels it’s just bonkers how little we know. So the fact that we have this beautiful narrative from Livy is incredible to me. I love it, and it’s also like the depth and complexity that he’s offering here of a society in a moment of transition is really powerful. And this idea that there is this sub sort of plus structure fight going on and families vying for power and control over the principal positions, it’s amazing, and I want to believe that those stories are true, and it’s really hard to reconcile with what we have from other sort of bits and pieces here and there, which stand outside that written material, but come from that archeological context. Yeah,
Dr Rad 33:27 and this is the thing I feel like I can’t quite finish this story without actually going into the next year because there’s a really intriguing detail that I think is going to blow your mind.
Dr G 33:39 Well, I put it to you that it will have to hold your horses a little bit.
Dr Rad 33:43 Okay. Well, can I, can I tell you this one detail? We can come back to it, but I have to tell you this one detail. Okay, okay, so the guy, because these two years blend together in the way that Livy is telling them, the guy who becomes the first plebleian military Tribune with consular power is Publius Licinius Calvus. Now we will come back to this, but I just want to leave you on this, because it’s so unbelievable. Livy s sort of goes into why was this the guy, why was this the guy who was chosen to be the first because he hadn’t held any sort of offices before, and I quote the English translation, but was only a senator of long standing now, well on in years now,
Dr G 34:25 whoa, what are you telling me? There have been plebeians in the Senate the
Dr Rad 34:29 whole time, apparently, so and it so. It brings us back to that essential question, which we’ve been wrestling with this entire time, of who the hell are patricians? Who are the plebeians? How do we define these things? I mean, obviously it makes sense. I understand that the Senate can’t be made up of just ex-magistrates.
Dr G 34:48 That’s right, that would be weird. Yeah, at the beginning there weren’t any.
Dr Rad 34:50 Exactly, there were none. And then even if we go back to, you know, like 50 years ago, whatever, they still wouldn’t have been enough to make up a Senate if it’s given. Scale that the Senate is in our source material. So Oh, my God, we’re going to delve into that more detail next time. But it just goes to show right at this moment, this very, very important episode where we finally reached a milestone how many more questions I have, and we are going to have to go back to that original question of patricians, papillions. Who are they and where do they come from?
Dr G 35:20 What is this and why does it keep happening? And are we sure it’s real? Were they there at the dawning of the sun and at the setting of the sun? We shall remember exactly, oh, my god. Anyway, that
Dr Rad 35:31 just blew my mind. That
Dr G 35:35 is an incredible detail, and I’m going to ruminate over that between the end of this recording and the next recording let you go
Dr Rad 35:43 without telling you that, because I’m like, it’s actually, I actually don’t even care about the fact that he’s the first plebeian military tribune with consular power. Once I read that, sentence I was like, holy cow!
Dr G 35:54 what’s been sitting in the Senate for years?
Dr Rad 35:56 Yeah, she’s been lurking there. Like, it’s just like, What is going on? Who let him in. What’s going on? So, yeah, so much that is intriguing right at the turn of the century and look, I agree with you. The thing is, what we have to remember is we’re dealing with this situation with Veii, right? And this is a very important moment for Rome, and we’ve already sort of hinted to our audience this is going to be the last showdown with Veii. I think you all know how that ends up. However, we also are facing a disaster for Rome, the Gallic sack of Rome, which is coming up on the horizon. And this is the excuse that our sources give us. Excuse me. I know, believe me, Rome about to get trashed. This is the excuse that our sources use for how confusing this particular century is. And I actually felt very reassured I was doing some research for the show. And it sort of was this chapter that was all about how the fifth century is probably the most difficult in Roman history to figure out. It’s even worse than the period under the kings. Because, okay, look, the Kings might be mythical, whatever, at least we have some detail. So you have some myths, you know, for this century, it just, there’s so many questions and academics just they have such different opinions. It is
Dr G 37:04 baffling. And I think there is the potential to take an archeological perspective, which would leave us with not too much to go on, but definitely the suggestion that there was conflict in this century in the local region surrounding Rome, for sure. So I’ve got a bit of information from a paper by Bartolini and Michetti from 2019 vague during the Archaic period the sixth and fifth centuries BCE. And this is backing up that paper by Ariza and Rossi that I was talking about in the previous episode, that there is a reasonable amount of archeological evidence to suggest that we’ve got cultural exchange going on, but also a build up of military engagement across these two cities Yeah, so that all makes sense. Cool things like the introduction of the terracotta roof tile. You know, everybody likes a good terracotta roof tiles. They’re
Dr Rad 38:04 so dangerous. They can fall at the moment. They
Dr G 38:06 could fall on your head. Then you could be dead. Exactly who’d ever tell a story about that? Terracotta roof tiles. They get developed and in the seventh century, and they start to sort of flood the market, as it were, it’s like new roofing materials. Hello. We also get the introduction of the Opus quadratum, style of brickwork, which is something that the Etruscans do when the Romans definitely adopt, which is the nice interlaying of bricks, where you don’t need mortar they just sort of Nestle up against each other in different patterns to create an interlocking system. Yeah, very cool, yeah. And the way that tomb structures change, which I mentioned in the previous episode as well. So there’s lots of ways in which there is cultural engagement cultural exchange and an increase in sort of militaristic defensive fines from this time period. So it’s not like Livy is wrong, yeah, yeah. He’s not wrong about the broad brush strokes. But I think what we are ultimately uncertain about, and maybe we’ll never be able to be certain about, is the really fine detail of who’s who, where are these stories coming from? Can we make sense of this chronological structure. Why do we seem to have some added years in here and all of this kind of jazz.
Dr Rad 39:26 Look the whole thing about the tribunes, patricians, plebeians, co opting, a trial like none of it makes sense to me.
Dr G 39:36 I kind of love how it’s become so circular, where it’s like, wait a minute, we’ve, we’ve done this thing, and now that we’re now we’ve got taxes, and we’re paying people, and it’s all getting out of hand, and nobody wants to sign up anymore, and where are we going to get the cash from? Nobody knows we don’t have currency we
Dr Rad 39:53 just weren’t ready for this. So I
Dr G 39:55 think this is probably a good moment to wrap up this episode. Mode, knowing that we’ve got this really great story
Dr Rad 40:04 of Yeah, the conflict of the orders is back with a vengeance. Yeah, coming
Dr G 40:08 up on this cliffhanger note, because I’m so keen to talk about 400 now, but I think there’s
Dr Rad 40:13 no more to it. But I just had to tell you that
Dr G 40:16 I genuinely do have some things about 400 so I’m excited to get there, okay, but I think it might be time for the Partial Pick.
Dr Rad 40:31 Alright? Dr, G, the partial pick the moment when the Romans have a chance to win 50 golden eagles, 10 in each category. Tell me what are our categories?
Dr G 40:44 Well, our first category is military clout,
Dr Rad 40:47 right? Well, okay, the Romans are apparently having some success. And by success, I mean they are undoing the terrible performance of the previous year. Yeah. I
Dr G 40:58 mean, you can only go up, can’t you?
Dr Rad 40:59 Yeah, no, I think they could go down. It could
Dr G 41:03 be worse. Yes, yes. Look, this is not a great situation for them to be in. They’ve got some troops in the field. They’ve been doing some minor pillaging. Yeah, they’ve recouped their losses from having their camp invaded by they. They’ve attempted to take back on saw but not been successful yet, running in that? No, so I think that they’re engaging in military things. I’m not sure that they’re demonstrating a lot of clout right now. It might be a three,
Dr Rad 41:27 yeah, yeah, okay, I’m on board with that. Okay, a three, it is
Dr G 41:34 new arguments. Excellent. Look,
Dr Rad 41:37 I’m weighing it carefully, and look, as I say, Yeah, regaining ground lost whilst they were being terrible is not the best.
Dr G 41:44 It’s not the best. This doesn’t constitute a huge success. No, all right, our second category is diplomacy. No, they
Dr Rad 41:53 are at war on multiple fronts. I think I’ve made that very clear.
Dr G 41:56 They are not talking to any of their enemies right now? No,
Dr Rad 42:00 there’s just so much war going on that’s no golden eagles. Yep, that’s a zero, okay, expansion.
Dr G 42:06 No, they’re
Dr Rad 42:08 not doing that. They
Dr G 42:10 certainly haven’t gained territory, although, if they’ve gained back the losses from outside of Bay, that is an improvement on their camp situation. That’s
Dr Rad 42:20 true, but that’s just a camp. It’s not like a permanent This is mine. That is your situation. I feel true.
Dr G 42:25 I think that is also a zero. I think so too. Weirdos, no,
Dr Rad 42:32 nobody seems to be very admirable, because, like even the tribunes of the plebs who put Sergio simogenius on trial, don’t seem the most admirable tribunes I’ve ever come across like, I think the implication is meant to be that they’re in the back pockets of the patricians. Yes, that does not seem ideal. And the other ones are apparently, you know, patrician candidates. So who cares about them? All
Dr G 42:55 right? So, yeah, I don’t think any of this behavior necessarily constitutes a great Roman sense of manliness, although they might argue otherwise, because I’m sure they would even Sergey
Dr Rad 43:06 and vigineous. I mean, again, they just come off terribly. They
Dr G 43:09 do sound like very rich, spoiled boys having a Slappy fight with each other. At least they’ve been found guilty. Okay, so that’s a zero for weird to us. Yeah, the citizen score. Is this a great time for Romans on the average, look,
Dr Rad 43:24 it’s a hard one to judge, because technically, speaking, the first plebeian military Tribune with consular power does not actually start serving until next year. Yeah, we can’t count that in this count, I was gonna say I don’t know whether to count the election and the intention to have a plebeian military tripping with consular power. Well, see,
Dr G 43:41 the trouble is that you could have an election, and you could have a candidate who is, you know, the elect as it were, sure, but might lose it before they get into office. But he doesn’t. And we know that, okay, but we but the Romans don’t know that, okay? Like he doesn’t start until next year.
Dr Rad 44:00 Okay, okay. But we do have the election. We do have the election happening, and we do, I suppose that’s exciting. Yeah, we do have sergeys and wagenius being found guilty and being fined, so that’s something. We do have tribunes who seemingly are pushing for things that the people would care about, but it seems to be very self interested, and if I don’t know how to feel about it. Look, I
Dr G 44:21 don’t mind if they’re doing something self interested, if it still benefits the general people, if the populace is still the beneficiary here by and large, I know. I’m not sure that I’m not that worried about intention. True, that’s
Dr Rad 44:33 true. It’s very, it’s a very tricky situation, this whole co option issue.
Dr G 44:40 Yeah, look, it sounds a bit like corruption to me.
Dr Rad 44:44 Well, basically, this thing, is it? This is the thing I feel like. This is just highlighting the fact that there have been pavilions and patricians who’ve been working together all along. Oh, well, we’ve looked at that. We’ve said that for years. You know that there are obviously pabians who are clients of the Patricia. How
Dr G 45:00 dare you. I would never talk to a patrician. I would spit on them in the street. But this is what we’ve always
Dr Rad 45:06 talked about. There are obviously going to be pavilions who have the same interests as the patricians, because they’re both wealthy. Are you trying
Dr G 45:13 to tell me that things are more complex than they seem? Certainly, all right, well, I don’t know if that helps us with our citizen score, though. I mean, I agree with you. I’m on your side here.
Dr Rad 45:24 I think that the at the end of the day, if we try and think about the situation that we’re confronted without putting in any of Livy s little additions, we essentially have a lot of people at war, right? We also have them not being paid, which is the perk that they were promised. True. We also have the people back home, whoever they may be, whether they’re patrician, plebeian or not paying a tax on this, which they’re clearly unhappy about. So it seems like there’s actually a lot of unhappiness about the only real perk, I would say, is that they’ve been able to hold Sergius and Verginius accountable, and that there’s the possibility of more plebeian political involvement, all right, so
Dr G 46:05 maybe a one? Yeah,
Dr Rad 46:07 I have to say two. I have to say two because I feel like it’s one for the trial and one for the election.
Dr G 46:13 It’s one for the trial and one for the election. It’s three for a military Tribune, exactly. Don’t
Dr Rad 46:21 you dare step on my Roman leather shoes.
Dr G 46:25 I was like, I don’t have the lyrics. It doesn’t work at all. I’m sorry, everybody all right. So that leaves us with a final score of,
Dr Rad 46:35 I forgot to keep count. Five, five.
Dr G 46:40 I was gonna say I think it’s five. We gave them three for military clout, two for the citizen score, and none in any other character. Yeah. No, it’s five. Five. Yeah, five, five. Golden Eagles
Dr Rad 46:50 look it seems low, but I think next year will be an interesting one. Score wise, maybe the possibility of a high score, maybe,
Dr G 46:58 well, yeah, I look forward to next time so we can find out together,
Dr Rad 47:02 indeed, and hopefully we won’t be consistently interrupted by my cat. Oh,
Dr G 47:07 we’ve had we’ve had a guest star. Have you heard Hamish in the background of our podcast? Write in and tell us what you think.
Dr Rad 47:15 Oh, dear. All right. Well, Dr, G, I look forward to seeing you and our plebeian military Tribune with consular power. Next one farewell.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more intriguing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon in return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say hello, hello. Hello to LJ, Israel, Christine Anders, Naomi and Eric, some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you so much for joining our partial band. However, if you just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. Daaa you thought we’d gone, but we haven’t. We’re just back to remind you that you can pre order our upcoming book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire now. Head to our website for details. It’ll be out November 2024.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode – Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger – Part 2
Jun 27, 2024
Neil returns to discuss more about some of the major sites of interest in the regal period of Rome. We recommend his podcast Ancient History Hound to you. You can also find out more details about Neil’s work at his website: The Ancient Blogger.
Special Episode – Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger – Part 2!
When Life Gives You Lemons?
It’s time to take a tour of Rome’s most infamous subterranean chamber, the Tullianum, aka the Carcer.
What did Livy know about the place? And what that might tell us about the site in its earliest history?
Does the archaeological structure make sense with the historiographical timeline?
Possible connections to Tullius Hostilius or Servius Tullius? Other potential etymological possibilities?
The Essential Precursor to Rome’s Success?
Of course, we’re talking about the Cloaca Maxima!
Water, human waste, rats, and methane – is the Cloaca Maxima just a little more dangerous than generally thought? We take a tour with Neil to find out.
The Circus Maximus – Older is Better?
There aren’t many flat places in Rome, so the natural valley that is home of the Circus Maximus marks it out as special. The natural contours shape the space and set the scene for how the Romans then adapted that space into an early sporting arena. Major sporting events included horse racing (in various configurations) and boxing, though in a very different style than you’d see today.
It wasn’t just about the sports though – it was also about being seen. Social standing takes on a new meaning when only some people get chairs.
Why Does Rome Need Ostia?
Well, a harbour can be a great asset to a developing city! Neil takes us through some of the important details associated with the site of Ostia, as the location of the early castrum, and the engineering modifications of the salt lagoons.
Horrea (storehouses) at Ostia Antica. Photograph by Jean-Pierre Dalbéra via Flickr.
Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr G 0:15 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:33 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of this city.
Dr G 0:57 Hello, and welcome to this very special episode of The Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:06 And I am Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:08 And we are really, really excited to welcome back, Neil, for what is part two of our extravaganza exploration of regal Rome in terms of its layout and what’s going on with like, the landscape and things like this. So as you know, Neil is the founder of the popular Ancient Blogger website, and is also the host of the Ancient History Hound podcast. So welcome back now.
Neil – History Hound 1:43 Hello, thank you very much for for having me back on again, you just don’t learn is what I’m getting at
Dr G 1:51 It is very few rare guests who get to come back for a second time.
Dr Rad 1:55 That’s true, that’s true
Dr G 1:56 Consider yourself in excellent company.
Neil – History Hound 1:59 When a teacher says when you meet up with a teacher later on in your life, and they say I remember you from school, and that’s rarely a good thing.
Dr G 2:08 Often, that is the presage of some nasty stories. Oh wow, I was that kid
Neil – History Hound 2:14 Oh, I thought I was quiet. But thank you very much for having my back on apologies to everyone listening, I’ve decided to I visited London recently to go to the British Museum to see an exhibition there, which had great fun out. And of course, I’ve picked up the lurgy or a cold or something. So if I’m sounding a bit sinusy that is, I’m fighting against it with rapid amounts of various lem sippy type things. So I’ll try and be as cogent and as clear as I can be, but stick with me if you can.
Dr Rad 2:44 I think you sound very smooth.
Dr G 2:48 I was gonna say as Australians we tend to like we really quite enjoy the English accent it does have a has a bit of a historical resonance for us. So you really can’t do any wrong.
Neil – History Hound 2:57 Well, I actually got some feedback on I get some occasional feedback on my YouTube channel. And someone give me feedback the other day. Couldn’t couldn’t last one minute with his voice. A fair enough. I just didn’t know my mom was on YouTube. A bit harsh.
Dr Rad 3:18 Like you can’t please them all. We’re constantly told our fellow laughing cackling and being immature so…
Dr G 3:24 How dare you do history and have fun at the same time. I take umbrage.
Dr Rad 3:30 This is very serious stuff.
Neil – History Hound 3:32 Yeah, I can very lightly I gotta be honest with you. I don’t have much in the way of criticism. I have nice comments, which is always nice. But I appreciate that people sometimes get some real unfair, unfair stuff come their way. Just remember if you’re listening to this, most people who do your podcast do it because their hobby. They do it because they love the subject. And all they’re trying to do is share that subject with you. They’re just trying to get ideas across topics across helping you think about a particular area. No one’s charging you necessarily anything. And so sometimes just bear that in mind because I always think of it like shops if I’m walking along a parade of shops. And I don’t need to go into a particular shop to buy an item. I don’t go into that shop and tell them they’re wrong for stocking that item. I just go past the shop. And I think with podcast sometimes we have I think it’s because culturally we’re not yet. fine tuned. We haven’t worked out to critique podcasts correctly. So you can go into these as I said, the shops and think about it again. I go past things all the time. I’m not interested in buying I do not go into that shop and go you know what? That those those size nine high heels you’ve got in the window? Useless. I’d never wear those or not. Not only that, I don’t even like them. I think you’re wrong for having them the shop window. People will be just looking at you going. “Yeah, okay. Do we Do you need some help?” But that’s the way sometimes.
Dr Rad 4:53 And ‘=they’d also be saying, Neil, come on. We know you want their shoes
Neil – History Hound 4:58 With those calves? Probably not? Yeah.
Dr Rad 5:03 Maybe Maybe wax first. Yeah, but no, you know, you’re very right. I don’t think everybody does understand podcasting, particularly for independents like ourselves. I’ve certainly talked to some very intelligent friends of mine who’ve never really put it together that we don’t necessarily get paid per se. Like, we’re very lucky to have patreon supporters as I think you probably are as well. But it’s still not like a paid job. And it’s certainly not enough that we can quit our full time paying jobs to you know, to go into the podcasting.
It’s
Neil – History Hound 5:39 It’s certainly one of the biggest misnomers most people do podcasting. In fact, they sort of 99.9% are doing it. It’s a hobby, they’re not making money out of it. And they’re just trying to create something that people like, so when you’re listening to it, if you can give back criticism, and I’m always up for constructive criticism, I’m fine with that. And people have come back and said, Actually, I’ve had some in the past, that might work better, or I enjoyed this. But you know what, that wasn’t so good. Great. It’s just that kind of mindlessness sometimes in the comment that What are you trying to do? What What’s the achievement value for you by submitting me that anyway, I apologize. But if you are listening, and you are listening to podcasts, currently, you know, sometimes it’s just nice to tell people that you really enjoy their stuff. And if you’ve got constructive, constructive criticism, give it but just just making constructive because, you know, we just, we just want to live our lives and go on with it. Because it’s pretty tough sometimes. So yeah. Anyway, there we go.
How
Dr Rad 6:30 How dare you refuse to change your voice for a listener, Neil?
Neil – History Hound 6:33 Oh yeah, you’re right. On another one, I did have someone call out that I was a bit heavy to be a hoplite. Because I was showcasing a shield.
Dr G 6:43 Ouch
Neil – History Hound 6:43 Oh no, to be fair, I was like, I didn’t have any color that I’m like, Yeah, you know what? I’m a bit overweight, and I’m a bit over age. I’m not a live 19 year old leaping around the battlefield.
Dr G 6:54 But yeah, so also, we just have so much more access to food.
Neil – History Hound 6:59 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like the world feeds is very well, indeed. And it’s like your chances of looking like a hot plate from the ancient world. Slim to none, when they’re eating a very different diet. Well, actually, that’s one of the things that often comes up. So there was a point that came out recently about Roman soldiers. And this is the whole thing about this height requirement for Roman soldiers. And it gets bandied around a lot. And it’s, it works at a roughly five foot seven. And this comes from a source, which is late fourth century ideas for jetties who, who writes this treaties on the Roman army, he says, Well, you need to be this height. And people take from that, that was an absolute given out across all of the entire territory of the Roman army. And in fairness, I did see it when I went up to the Legion exhibition of the British Museum, which is great, and even at a photo taken at meet with of me next to the thing, not making the height requirement. People
Dr G 7:51 You’re out, I’m sorry.
Neil – History Hound 7:52 Yeah, I was out. And what people don’t realize is that I’ve had it sometimes people said, well, you know, everyone was just short about them. And it wasn’t people were shorter. I mean, yes, they probably were, it was just they didn’t have the ability to fulfill their, you know, they weren’t exposed to the kind of diet that we are. Many people are not everyone, many people are in the Western world, as it were now, or just across the planet where you can eat, you’re not starving, you’re not nutritiously deficient anyway. So you could have plenty of people who may have been over six foot kicking around ancient Rome, as it were, but they never had the diet when they were children to be able to reach that, you know, genetics can set you up in terms of your physiology, as I understand it. But what you do to achieve that doesn’t mean it’ll always happen. So if you can get somebody might be six foot two, but if you don’t feed them, right, they might, you know, their growth is going to be incapacitated in some way. You put blockers on that. But anyway, yeah, so there we go. We’ve brought it back to ancient Rome. So I’m happy.
Dr Rad 8:51 Indeed, I’m always happy to talk about the vertically challenged army of ancient Rome. All right, so let’s let’s go back to the geography of early room, if we may. And I’m going to kick it off with something that is quite near and dear to my heart, because I am going to openly admit, Dr. G, that I wrote the chapters on the kings Tullus Hostilius and Servius Tullius in our book, just in case there’s people hadn’t realized, just in case, somehow my unique style and never-ending popular cultural references were lost on you. And so that brings me to ask you about a particular building, the Tullianum, which may be named after either of those kings that we were just talking about. We’re not really sure which one so Livy claims that these may have been constructed by Ancus Marcius, but I don’t believe that Dr. G, because you wrote about him.
Dr G 9:55 No, I was gonna say that was my chapter.
Dr Rad 9:57 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now archaeologists have done their darnest, but the exact location of this structure is still a bit of a mystery. There has been a theory put forward that the Tullianum might be the ancient vault that was found under the Church of St. Giuseppe dei Falegnami. However, even the dating of this space seems to only go back as far as the second century BCE. So can you tell us what is the Tullianum? And what tales from regal Rome are connected to it?
Neil – History Hound 10:33 Well, I don’t incite chapter wars. But obviously, if anyone’s read the book, they can get back to both of the authors and tell them who wrote the better chapters. Don’t just, I’ll leave it there. But thank you very much about the Tullianum. Yes, the way to think about Tullianum and I did think about, the best way to understand it is almost starting at the wrong end of things. So we want to start around the time of Livy. And think what Livy was saying. So again, we’ll work on the premise that it is under that church that you mentioned. So we’ll take that, again, these all kinds of caveats of further things may give us more clues and more ideas. And we always have that. That’s why whenever I’m talking about anything, I’m always very, very delicate about given an absolute because, you know, two days after you released an episode, you’ve written something incredible discovery, scotch is everything. Now, when Livy’s was looking around, he would have noticed there was a structure and the structure by his point was quite famous this was and it’s known in the modern, more modern time is the moment I’m present. Now, that’s a much later reference to it. You had apologies, my pronunciation again, but you had two structures, the one above ground, which was the carcer or car-ker. And then you had one below it. And it’s the underground structure, that’s the one that interests us, Sometimes this is referred to as part of the carcer. But we also know it as already referred to as the Tullianum. Now for Livy, it made perfect sense, he had this structure above ground, so that must have come first. And the structure below ground presumably was was was later. So he retrospectively seems to apply the structure of the above ground structure to anchors. And then he sort of suggests that the second one was built later by, by Julius and and it makes sense, because after all, Look, Look, it’s called the Tullianum. So it must be linked, because, again, naming conventions in ancient Rome, very often things are named after a person, or they’re given that backstory, that’s something that can be easily attached to them. And he is writing a story, let’s never forget that with Livy. You know, he’s trying to make his reader interested in things that have happened in the past. And he’s also not going to conduct extensive archaeological interest or excavations into these buildings.
Dr G 12:39 Oh, come on, Livy. You got to work on your method.
Neil – History Hound 12:41 Yeah, get your trowel out, Livy. I’ve always said it. So what we’re looking at there. So the Tullianum, and I thought of another way of considering it, and I daresay both your good selves, and everyone listening here, would have walked around, and they would have seen a building that’s changed us. In the UK, there’s a sort of chain of development that seems to occur, suddenly, it used to be a bank that turns into a pub, that gets shut down many years later, that becomes a block of flats, or become something else. And so if you Look at some of these buildings and go, well hang on a sec, that, that must have been always, it’s just an odd looking building. But it must always have been an office or a block of flats, you actually know it’s been repurposed, it’s been rearranged. Originally, it was built like this. And there are famous examples, then it’s the Louvre, the museum in Paris, that was originally a palace, and then it got changed. And that’s not a huge, I suppose a huge leap of change for a particular building, particularly in France, where they didn’t really have many kings kicking around after a certain point to have buildings for. But with Tullianum, it’s really interesting, because what Livy’s trying to do is make sense of what he’s seen and retrospectively fit that but what we have is a bit of a bit of a curiosity. So the idea was that the to Leon was this underground or Livy’s, time underground, called I say, dungeon. I don’t like calling it that. But it was kind of a holding cell. And it was a holding cell for the famous peoplecert such as Vercingetorix. All of those people who were involved in the Catiline conspiracy were apparently held there. And after which they will they will be executed on sometimes there will be ritually strangled down there, such as I think it’s pheasant gettering. So if that occurs, too. But the issue with it is that that’s what Livy was saying, an archaeology and other sort of works. And again, with the caveat of more things will come out as determined there was probably a very different use. And this use seems to have been that of a spring or a system. And the rationale behind that is because it’s an odd structure. This is and it’s been changed a lot because in the modern, even in the Save the ancient Roman times, the later building of the car-ker or carcer, which I think dates to around the second or second century BC or there bout’s, that seems to have changed the structure below it quite a bit. So they think it’s several meters, two meters high. Also, circular building, I think it’s .about seven meters in diameter, or there abouts. And the premise seems to have been that this was a third last type design, which if you if anyone who’s listened or knows much about ancient Greek architecture, will immediately think of this as a circular thing with a dome sometimes. And it was a cistern. And not only was it a cistern, like many cisterns in ancient Rome, it was linked to a deity, it would have been sacred, it would have been given some religious provenance on some level, which is actually ironic, given what I’ll come to in a bit. And so that’s what they thought the original design was. And when they looked at a section of the walls, they actually came across the type of wall structure, where it seemed like ancient the way it was, was built, they said, This is archaic. This looks pretty much like a cistern, which has been found elsewhere on the Palatine. And around that time, it’s a common pattern of the way that the wall was structured. However, when they looked at the stone, and I read a paper with incredible amounts of letters after numbers, because they did sort of various isotope stuff on the walls of the remaining structure where they could get to because again, it is a religious, it has a religious connotation now. So you can’t just go around and start chopping these things up and removing and excavating. They found that the stone dates to probably around the fourth century BC, is a particular type of stone that Rome doesn’t get access to around that time, seems to pop up a lot. And so the question is, why would you have an older structure with newer stone, and one argument which sort of appears is this, and I think works quite well is this wasn’t really important religious or spring that had religious prominence to it. And therefore, it had been reclad rebuilt, which isn’t an unusual thing. You’re just using more recent and better tools and better construction materials to rebuild it. And you do that because it was important. So the idea was that this, in fact, was, as I said, a spring sacred spring, that filled the cistern. And then you go, Well, hang on a sec, you know, you’ve both said, Tell us, you know, we got we got totally us there, you know, we’ve got Servius, and we got Hostilius. So, where does that link in? Well, it’s been argued that actually the word ‘Tullus’ is Latin or comes from the Latin to mean spring or jet of water. So again, this links into Livy trying to find a way to connect dots, which may not be there, but building a logical picture, and I’m not going to criticize him for it, because I think it’s a relatively good way of considering what he saw. There’s also another element to all of this. And that’s the power of there was a gate in the serving boards called the porta fontinalis. And this was a lead this allegedly gave access to a sacred spring. And it’s thought that this gate was near to where the current site is. So this might be the sacred spring that was linked to that gate. And that there is an I’ll finish up with what I finish up with actually three things of note. First of all, the Romans had some really, really, really, really cool, horrible stuff. But sometimes, as we’ll see later, particularly, they had some quite fancy festivals that just in kind of, yeah, that seemed like a nice thing. But October 13, at the Fontanella, which was where wells were adorned with flowers, and I think that’s really quite nice. Sort of, obviously, a celebration of how important these things were, and again, need to remember that flowing water often had this religious connotation to it springs are often where people I wondered actually, I couldn’t find anything linked this in, but numerous. The nymph Egeria, whether or not she was linked possibly, to this to this spring, again, I don’t know because she was said to hang around a spring, but I am now going to give you well, a bit of controversy and I can kind of see that the finger of Damocles is sort of hovering above the edit button on this one, because I’m going to say one thing, lemons. So there is quite a controversy in ancient Rome about lemons and when lemons became introduced. Now I know full well that there are some lovely frescoes from Pompeii. And they seemed to depict lemons or do they some people have argued that they depict the citron fruit as – I see Dr Rad looking around going, Hang on a second. I thought that was definitely a lemon is quite a controversial thing, believe it or not, because and again, things that you end up reading that you don’t necessarily you end up going down rabbit holes. There’s a whole there were various papers done on evidence of sausage from fruit now to identify some fruit particular lemons is really quite difficult because different pips you got to look at pollen, and it can be difficult to distinguish these and they have found evidence of citron pollen in and around Naples. Not enough apparently is in in quantities that are dense enough to suggest there was farming going on. But there was certainly citrons. And an argument has been lemons were around in the time of Pompeii. And that’s probably true, because the only piece of definitive or the earliest piece of definitive lemon lemons being anything in Rome is found in the Tullianum where they found lemon seeds. They were able – and this dates to the Augustan period – they were able to specifically date or not date them, but identify them because citron pollen, citron seeds can often look very similar to each other. And they had this so there we go, in case you’ve you’ve got that gap in your life, it’s now well and truly filled, you know that lemons were certainly a thing around Augustan Rome. And we know that from the Tullianum. The other thing is the fact that this whole idea of a spring and having religious connotations is shifted across. Because there is again, this is the I don’t know enough about the Catholic Church to know whether or not this is fully endorsed, but I suspect it is in some way. But you can apparently visit St Peters, it was a site rather of one of St. Peter’s miracles when he was held at Rome. He wanted to baptize a bunch of people. And guess what he’s struck the earth of the Tullianum and a spring emerged. And from that, he was able to baptize a bunch of people. So again, you have this link of a spring being based within the the Tullianum, and you can’t get away from that being a central function to it. It’s just interesting how Rome again, adapted and evolved, what was already there to possibly something very separate. It was a by the time of Livy, possibly a holding cell. And it may have been this whole sacred spring thing that was lost in the memory. And then again, it points to something I’ve mentioned we spoke about in the the first episode, where even within ancient Rome, things got lost things got remember, things got reinvented, it wasn’t this monolithic block of time where everyone is considering what happened in Oh, yeah, fifth century BC, that was just a week ago. You know, first century BC, nothing’s changed. Everything’s changed. So we always need to remember that, you know, there was within ancient Rome, there was an ancient or more ancient Rome that it knew of and try to work out. Anyway. So there’s my thoughts and some things about the Tullianum.
Dr Rad 22:15 Oh, Look, I’m very intrigued by the lemon seeds. It makes me wonder what on earth was going on in that holding cell? Was it something nice like them saying, Yes, I’d like some water with just just a slice of lemon, please.
Dr G 22:29 Well, I’m down here, I’m gonna make some lemoncello. Why not?
Dr Rad 22:32 Exactly. What was it more like? Yeah, you made too bad life decisions. Here’s some lemons, try and make lemonade out of them, I dare you!
Dr G 22:43 Classic Romans, I would say, Yeah, Look, I think that’s really fascinating. There are so many springs in and around Rome. It’s just the nature of the geography. And all of them are considered sacred in particular ways. So it’s interesting to try and tease out particular details relating to a singular one. But I think this actually leads in really nicely this idea of springs into my question for you. And I know this is a topic dear to your heart, the Cloaca Maxima. So thinking about things that might be watery, but in a less pleasant way,
Neil – History Hound 23:21 I’m actually gonna throw a question back to the both of you good selves, it’s more of a mental exercise. And for anyone listening, I suggest you do this as well. And the question is this, could Rome have developed and achieved what it did without the forum? So if it didn’t have access to the forum, could it have achieved what it did? It might have done. But if after considering that question, your your answer, your conclusion is, no, it couldn’t have done, then the Cloaca Maxima is possibly the most important structure in ancient Rome, certainly the early development of it, because without the Cloaca Maxima, you do not have the Roman forum. And I can get into the whys of that in a moment.
Dr G 24:02 Ah excellent, excellent, setting up the mystery.
Neil – History Hound 24:08 The mystery of something that I spoke about prior and this relates to flooding, and here we come with some numbers. So the problem that we have with the forum or the area that came to become the forum is it’s it’s in a in a valley, and it’s between the Capitoline and the Palatine Hill. Now, being in a valley, it was prone to flooding. The bigger problem was quite extensive flooding. At the time before it was developed. It sat at around 6.9 meters above sea level, which sounds quite high up. You think that’s not too bad, except the problem was that the seasonal floods from the Tiber could reach up to 9 meters above sea level. So what we seem to have at play then, and again, this is this is more identifiable through some of the archaeology that’s done because we can sort of see what the work has been able to see has been these layers of material that have been laid on the forum. And it raised it up by around three meters. And it seems this work undertook a lot of time between the seventh century was probably discontinued and then carried on. And the amount of material required was around 20,000 cubic meters. Now, I don’t know what 20,000 cubic meters Look like, I don’t know how big that is. But I did some basic sums. And if you’ve got a wheelbarrow in your garden, I can average wheelbarrow, it would take 235,000 trips with that wheelbarrow to move that amount of material.
Dr G 25:34 Dear lord.
Neil – History Hound 25:35 Yeah, that’s a lot of movement. Now, of course, the problem with raising this is that you had the issue of drainage, because in this area, it suggested that there was a narrow stream, but also you would have the floods. Now, you can go about raising the level of that area. But the problem is minute floods, the minute you’ve got that stream running through the middle of the forum, what he just wrote everything, all your good work, and completely gone. So what’s been suggested that early on the Cloaca was simply a way of redirecting that drain. And as they raised the level of fluid, so it grew, so you build up beside of it. So what you seem to have had was a double channel. So we had parallel channels of a parallel channel, about three meters wide, or just over three meters with a wall in the middle. And three meters high by the time it was finished. And this seems to have done the job and be unable to redirect water away from the forum. So you then you could pave it over. The big kind of controversy over this is whether or not it was open or paved, because again, this wasn’t a sewer, I’ll get to that in a moment. This wasn’t assuming that sewer in the conventional sense, this was just a way of draining the area. So it’s been argued that the the fact that it was uncovered at one point with just some areas that were being covered, so you could move across it. Others say this didn’t happen till the second century BC Some have said no, actually, this was from day one was always covered. And that was the standard because we can see drainage channels elsewhere. In fact, there was an interesting drainage channel that seems to have occurred a bit later on in Cumae. And that’s funny enough, where the last Roman king ends up in exile. So this idea is that there’s, there’s this the technology is well known about. And it’s something that people are quite proud of having. In fact, it’s something you showcase, it was a mark of distinction to have this kind of engineering fee, because that’s what it was within your city within your, your well, the city that you boasted of. So this is what this did. And it’s it’s quite, it’s quite fascinating thing, because people and I’ve had chats with people since on this in the later Roman imperial period, it’s really quite difficult to get across just how much surface water there was kicking around in the Cloaca Maxima. By the way it gets expanded. I mean, it gets really expanded it by the time of Livy, you had I mean, again, the the analysis and modern analogy I’ll give is, think if you’re old enough, like me, you can remember when the internet was about four websites. And you can remember when there was Ask Jeeves, and Netscape or whatever it was, that was the pre-Google times and all of this kind of thing. And obviously now you see, it’s completely different. This was a very basic advanced in itself, but very basic structure that was then added to so now what you have is you have when people Look at it, and they excavate it, you’ve got these different parts of it that much newer than other parts of it, because it’s had to be developed and changed, rebuilt, extended everything in subsequent periods, which can make things more difficult because how do you see what the original bid was? So that’s what you have with the Cloaca. And it’s, it’s absolutely, I’d say absolutely fascinating, particularly in regards to how it functioned as a sewer because it was generally there to take away surface water. You’ve got by the time of the imperial period, you’ve got a lot of water that’s coming from fountains, off rooves. There’s been extensive repaving. So you’ve got this runoff, all this stuff. One of the big things that come out, and again, I was talking to kids in schools always loved this is the idea that they weren’t. The toilets might have been connected, but largely weren’t based on the evidence that we have, particularly at Pompeii, where there’s quite a lot of surviving structures that you can see that toilets weren’t connected to the sewer. They weren’t connected to the Cloaca Maxima. Did did human waste end up there? Yeah, yeah, it did. But the thing was, we think of it slightly different for a Roman was certainly the Roman period. The idea of using water to flush away human waste wasn’t really the most obvious way of dealing with it. Because human waste can be used in a number of ways. A main one was as fertilizer and you had people who would come along and collect it and actually buy it from people. Now imagine if you’re someone who lives in a if you’re a poor Roman, so the majority of Romans probably and you live in an incident live in a small building where you probably have a chamber pot, and your chamber pot with tea into a larger, I suppose larger pot or some container, that container might be taken, taken away, dumped outside, that seems to be the case at Pompeii, but also, the owner of the instalay might have a deal, and you might be selling it as fertilizer. If you were someone who had a house with a, with a toilet in it, it wasn’t a toilet, this was a sort of waste disposal, often in the kitchen as well. The idea would be that solid waste would be put in there, it could then drain through the rock, and people would then come around and they would buy it off you you would have slaves if you had a toilet. I mean, most people had slaves anyway. But you’d certainly have a suite of slaves as it were, if you had a private home with a sewing home with a private toilet. And that will probably be one of the jobs, one of the things you wouldn’t have occurred to Romans would be to use water to flush it away. Because why would you now this there’s a separate arguments you made in the case of bards and things like that, but you got to think about Roman bards is quite an unusual, even though there are a lot of them. This is where later sort of Imperial time, when Roman Baths really become a thing in ancient Rome. Obviously there are summer, Pompeii, and there are some that day a bit earlier than they did we think that Rome in either case, just flushing and having that as the equation of dealing with waste just didn’t make sense to Rome on many levels. And you know, you could do other stuff with it. And there was fine one final story. Well, actually, there are a couple reasons why you wouldn’t want your toilet connected. If you did live in Rome to the sewer. The first would be well, if the type of floods you’ve got a lot of fun coming your way. The second one was rats, you’ve basically got a super superhighway for any kind of rats or anything to come back up through the toilet. And the other one and please don’t laugh at this when I say the words gas traps. So you’d have a lot of methane building up. You’ve both been put on mute, but you’re laughing like children I’m I’m disgusted, I thought distinguished academic discussion, Stop having fun, we’ll get complaints. And the idea was that if you had buildup of methane in it’s gonna come back up through that particular receptacle. And it’s in a kitchen. Well, you know, Romans are quite big on candles. So you got to watch out for that. And one final one is one that I get similar reaction from telling kids is that do adult and it is a very much an outlier. Very much an outlier. So don’t take this as a reason. But Elian gave a great story on animals. And I know if you’ve either of you heard this, it’s a bit of a mystery. There’s this merchant who owned a stockroom or a storeroom or something. And it wasn’t in Rome. It was on the, he was a Spanish merchant and I think it’s I forget so it was somewhere in Italy, but it was near the coast. And he had he had his stock room and one day he goes into the sock room and his pickled fish have been raided. There’s bits of pot everywhere. And he’s he’s just baffled by it because the locks no one’s going through the door. The locks fine. What’s happened there? Well, he then hires, or he takes one of his slaves, and says why you’ll stand up tonight. I just wanted to see anyone comes in, scare them off. Here we go. So he did. Slave come back the next morning slaves absolutely terrified, terrified, can’t get many words out of him. Invariably they do because you know, he’s a slave. And he talks about the fact that early in the morning, he was looking over in the corner, and the toilet was connected to the sewer. And out of the sewer came this huge octopus, who then continued to help himself to the all the pickled fish and everything else. And then went back. Yes, yeah. And unfortunately, they they end up getting octopus doesn’t end too well. And it’s one of those stories which you think sounds good, doesn’t it? Until more recently when there was those number of those stories of octopus escaping various aquariums and ended up you know, getting into a you an Uber and going downtown having a good time event coming back home for in the morning. Oops, got to go back home. It they were just incredible. And perhaps something
Dr Rad 34:02 And telling the future as well.
Neil – History Hound 34:04 Yeah, they could do all sorts of things predicting elections, they can do pretty much everything.
Dr Rad 34:10 Yeah, yeah, he was gonna be anything, I believe that it was an octopus.
Neil – History Hound 34:14 I would, I would definitely be definitely a fan of that. So with the Cloaca Maxima, what you’ve got there to go back to it is originally this would have been built as the form has been developed. Because again, as this as you’re raising the level of the forum, you’ve got to keep this drainage ditch intact and to do its job and to take away that surface water. You don’t have the forum. Simply you do not have a forum because you do not have the ability to reclaim that land, which is a huge thing. Because when you walk around Rome now, you don’t quite realize how different it was. And I don’t mean the obvious things. I mean, just the topography. So I think the not the archaeological level for ancient Rome as it was around 10 meters below the current level or there abouts and obviously it’s going in different places. Since, but it was far higher and far lower in certain areas than it is now. In fact, you’d be quite surprised if you could do that there is a model, I believe in Rome, which I’ve, I’ve seen a few times. And it’s absolutely fascinating, where they’ve, they’ve got archaic Rome. And it’s just a place of these hills and just hills and valleys. You don’t get the sense of that as much now, but it would have been back then. So drainage was really important. And as such, the Cloaca Maxima was really important.
Dr Rad 35:28 And I definitely believe you, Rome does have a reputation for being a bit swampy at times.
Neil – History Hound 35:34 Well, that was one of the reasons they didn’t all Rome had real problems with the Campus Martius. You know, they had this issue around there. It was really swampy. And it was they did have a big problem with drainage and Rome, certainly in the early early stages of it.
Dr G 35:50 No, I always think of Campus Martius. And I know it’s named after Mars, but I always think what Marsh is in its name as well.
Dr Rad 35:57 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the marshy Martius.
Dr G 36:01 Exactly.
Dr Rad 36:02 So switching gears, a little bit from gas, and all sorts of delightful things that you might find in a sewer. Let’s talk a little bit about the Circus Maximus. So it’s not necessarily the thing that springs into people’s minds when they think of Rome that usually goes to the Colosseum, which is now seen as a symbol of ancient Rome in the city. However, the Circus Maximus is much much older than the Colosseum, and therefore definitely worthy of our attention. So what made the Circus Maximus so special? And why is it an important structure to think about when were exploring the geography of the regal period?
Neil – History Hound 36:42 Okay, so I explained my boo to start with, I liked the Colosseum, I’ve been there, I’ve walked around, I’ve gone in it. But for me, I’m old school. I’m Circus Maximus. In fact, I thought about my dream job. And my dream job would have been marketing consultant for the Circus Maximus around AD 80. And it would have I would have had things on the wall saying, Yeah, Circus Maximus, but the clowns are at the Colosseum, that kind of thing I would have gone full in there would have been hashtags everywhere. So the Circus Maximus is actually linked in before I before I go in even more circus maximum is linked in to declerck maximum because it’s thought that says similar technology that was being exchanged there because this is in a valley between the Aventine and Palatine hills. So if you’re walking, again, we used our clock analogy. In the previous previous episode, if you’re looking at Rome, and you’ve got the the forum Boarium at the center of the clock, you’re looking at sort of between four and five o’clock here. And that valley is between, that valley runs sort of south, southeast or east southeast that that in that kind of general direction. It was prone to drainage. And there are elements of it, which seemed to have been forgotten, but sort of remembered in some of the rituals and associations I’ll come to in a moment. But the initial problem they had was, how do you how do you get hold of this really nice piece of land again, Rome as it’s trying to develop and expand, you can’t just live on hills you need flatland to do stuff on and what you have in what is not I think it’s a Mercier – Mer-kier Valley is actually the technical term for where the Circus Maximus is, is you have an alluvial plain, apparently, which was seems to be like an old flooding on the flooding plane or used to be a river there or some some such, and what you have two channels, and you have a sort of buildup of material between those two channels. And so what Rome does is it takes those, that physical topography and amends it slightly and creates the creates the Circus Maximus, those two channels become the tracks, that central buildup of material becomes the Spener, that bit in the middle of the track, where in later periods, you have all those fancy statues and whatnot. And so what they’re doing is they’re taking advantage of what’s already there, but they’re slightly rebuilding it. And it’s also involved, by the way, drainage, it’s thought that there was a drainage channels, either side of that central bank, and going around the edges of the tracking. If you were to Look at, Look at it above, think of a cartoon where you have a magnet, you know that it’s like that big C shape, that elongated C shape, that’s what you have sort of Circus Maximus. Now, obviously, at the time of the Regal period, you’ve got to get rid of any any thoughts of how it looked like when you probably think about it in its heyday, when it’s got 250,000 people allegedly been able to turn up there. And all of this kind of thing. It was simply a track where you could run various events and there was one particular event that they they had there. And what they what they did was they took the track and they started to understand that you can have let’s say contest there things which people like to watch. So what I found really interesting is a niche Surely, you have this social standing literal. So social standing, because early on, you’ve got Livy and Dionysius both explaining that you have temporary seating allocated. But you’ve got only only certain classes could do this. So you’ve got a space in Rome by which people can be seen. And they can be marked out as distinguished. So it’s really important early on, because people get to show how important they are, because they can have temporary wooden seating. But if you’re really poor, you don’t get that. And there’s in terms of dating it, we’re looking at the, I’d say we’re looking at the legal period, certainly, the earliest piece of that was a physical evidence, there is a stepping stone seat, which dates to 494 BC, and apparently was for Manius Valerius Maximus. So we have a definitive date there of something being and of course, you won’t have a stone seat just overnight, that had to be as a result of further development. The early games they had there were horse racing, and boxing, both very important and very popular. You think of the funeral games at metropolis. You think of the Olympics, you know, these were events which which were central to both of those, both of those things. And these are also apparently from Etruria. So again, these this seems to be an important thing. And it was also it also was apparently the location of the Sabine women, the instance involved in the Sabine women. So I don’t probably need to go over that I’m not sure that people will realize or understand that. One of the things Romulus arranged was a sort of mass abduction, hijacking and worse of women from the Sabine group at an event. And this event was said to have occurred at the Circus Maximus or the site of the Circus Maximus, and apparently it was the Consualia, which was a, in itself, a really nice festival. So to distance what happened at it, it was a really nice festival because the Romans as I said, as an animal level, one of the reasons I could never go to ancient Rome, and people How would you like to go about that? No, I couldn’t. Most people, I think, wouldn’t they say, I’d love to go to the Colosseum and watch. No, you wouldn’t. Because most people, and I say this with a big caveat of most people haven’t seen the sort of horrors that you’d see that you’ve seen it in films, not seeing it in real life, you’d be traumatized. I would be equally as traumatized by the way that animals are treated in certain instances. I know there’s a recent thing that they found at Pompeii, where you had mules that were basically just walking around in circles for their entire lives. So yeah, there was there, this element of horrible treatment of animals, which I’ll move away from, but this is a really nice instance of animals being treated nicely, because the Romans recognized how nice horses and mules were. And they decorated them. They gave them garlands, they had a kind of little My Little Pony festival for them, and they had little races for them. And all that all that sort of thing. And there’s actually what’s interesting is later on the Olympic Games, I’ll just bring the Olympic Games in, because that’s the other big famous games, that becomes the Olympic Games, incorporates equestrian events, because they’re primarily about wealth. Originally, Olympic games weren’t Olympic Games, they were a single foot race for I think it’s a good few 100 years, or variations of it raises the question events start occurring a bit later on. And they’re there purely because people realize that it’s a really good place where they can showcase their wealth. So this is a good way of again, showcasing your wealth and everything else. And they did have events for horses, we always think of the big chariot races, but they used to have like mule races and little carts and traps, I think trap racing that sort of similar similar events to that they used to go and they even had one where you went, the last lap, you ran. So you would you would you would go on your horse around. And this again, is gonna make games. And the last event you get off and you’d run with your horse.
Dr G 43:59 We’ve got – I’ve got to buy myself some advantage by getting the horse out the front real quick. So…
Dr Rad 44:05 That also sounds like a fast track to being trampled.
Neil – History Hound 44:07 Well, the origins of this that it’s thought that this is actually related to cavalry covering engagement. That’s because one of the things that sometimes, again, isn’t fully realized is that we think of cavalry engagements in antiquity. And there’s some confusion exactly how they undertook. So you think of Alexander the Great, and you think of knights and you think of people charging around on horses, fine people? Well, that that didn’t happen, but earlier on, certainly, it didn’t. And there was definitely a school of covering engagement, which seems to indicate I think it’s Livy who mentioned in one engagement where people would get off so it’d be like dragoons I think it is you draw you use your horse to get to the location neutral and then you fight on foot. Very often, you’d be you’d be using the horse to chase down or where you had full advantage needed mobility, but the idea that everyone was charging around and the horses fighting horses and not necessary, not necessarily the case, for a number of reasons. And when you look at some of the Equestrian Games in the Olympic Games, you see that there’s a lot of I mean, there are other ones where you’ve got the dancing in the running Racing, racing armor, at the Olympic games and things like that. So there’s a lot of sort of military virtue exposed there. And I suspect, that’s a similar thing that’s going on Circus Maximus, you’ve got boxing, which was brutal. If it went by the rules of the Olympic Games, then there weren’t rounds, you just basically punched each other until, and there was some horrible stories of people swallowing their teeth, so they wouldn’t Look like they’ve been hit too hard. And I even remember reading one instance was when when if it went on too long, they just had a punch off. So it’s the case if you punch me, I punch you and whoever it thinks. So it was pretty brutal. But again, it was highly, this was a highly, this is a high cultural moment, which occurred at the at the Circus Maximus early on, and you’re getting you’ve got that you’ve got the involvement of, of the horses, you’ve also got a bit of a and this is what I refer to earlier, with a mixture of things going on, because you have the mystery altar. So at the end of the other one in the turning points, the terme – so you had a simple track, if you’re in you’re in Rome, at this point, you’ve got a simple track with drainage channels on it. And you’ve got some people are able to stand on wooden seating. And of course, you wouldn’t have wouldn’t you wouldn’t have anything permanent up, why would you have something permanent up, when it could flood when it could rock the rest of it now just put up when you need to. And there seems to be a god associated here called Consus. And Consus was apparently god of the grain and harvest. But he apparently also had an altar underneath that final turning point. And it was buried. And the way it was, it was unearthed and it seems to be of a secret nature, and it’s interesting. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, actually, and I’ll quote here that he says, “the subterranean altar was erected later to a certain divinity whose name may not be uttered, who presides over and is the guardian of hidden counsels.” Now, this might be because he can’t say Consus, because apparently weren’t meant to. If you consider he’s the god of secrets. Not a very good god of secrets if you tell everyone your name, but even so there’s something going on there. And people thought, well, what’s the association with wheat and grain there, and it’s the or perhaps prior to the prior to the Circus Maximus being being established there, it could have been a location where wheat was grown, which we also have possibly again, at the Campus Martius, you know, have these low lying areas where you can grow, you can have some agricultural projects going on, because again, Rome doesn’t have many flat places. So it needs to find its growing things anywhere that it can do. And of course, by the time of living dynastic Vanek analysis, they’ve kind of mixing things up. So originally the Consualia is meant to be for Neptune, who is Poseidon for the Greek or he’s a version of him, I should underline that heavily a version of him in the Greek pantheon is beside always associated with horses. So again, it’s this weird crossover. So possibly, there could have been something earlier there involving concepts involving wheat, which apparently could also be stored underground, which is why they may have had this auditorium underground. And then later, it’s absorbed and rolled into this wider festival that’s held there at the Consualia, which is then allocated to a particular event with the sidelines. And this wouldn’t be the first instance that Rome does that Roman religious system, which is quite ironic given how small c conservative Roman religion could be in some instances, loves, loves accommodating other elements to it. With it with the you have the Saturnalia, which incorporates the Lectisternium in the end of the third century BC, which was a Greek Festival. They there is this often enrichment of the Roman religion with other elements, so they quite happily repackage and roll things up.
Dr G 49:07 They certainly do. Yeah, so I think the this idea of the Circus Maximus is being part of a multipurpose space, I think, is really useful to think about, particularly for this early period. So there’s the theory that is put out in some of the written sources that the Circus Maximus was kind of created by the Etruscan King par excellence Lucius Tarquinius [Priscus] and that may or may not be just a bit of a story trying to connect that cultural element. But the fact that we’ve got all of this sort of layered meaning over time, I think is really key and crucial for appreciating what is happening as Rome progresses through its own history, as you say, and also thinking about what might have been the touch points for the really early stuff as well.
Neil – History Hound 49:56 Just one final thing on there and I’ve just because I want to sell it even more. If something big happened in ancient Rome, it happened at the Circus Maximus. That’s where most likely you had gladiator fights. That’s where you had ceremonies. People think of the Colosseum, as being this big centralized it almost until Rome had a Colosseum. They just didn’t put anything on. No, all the stuff used to go on at the Circus Maximus again later on. But if you’re a general and you’ve got a you’re looking to have a big ceremony or a big pomp and you know, triumph, that’s where it’s going on. Julius Caesar has big fights there between various sort of sections of his arm, or not his army, but kind of gladiator fight things going on there. It was a major, major cultural event. And it’s weird, because when you go to Rome, you don’t see it as prominent as other sites, because again, other sites steal the eye a bit more, because when you go to it, it looks a bit more like it does now was done back then. So flat piece of ground, but when you go to it just know that is real, old school, Roman.
Dr G 51:06 Yeah. And I think I think one of the things to keep in mind for people who are traveling to Rome and seeing it today is that the Circus Maximus retains some of its amazingness simply because that space continues to this day to be utilized for big events. So if there is a big concert happening, and a huge band comes to Rome, they will often be performing at the Circus Maximus, it is the perfect location for giant events where you want lots of people, the way that it’s laid out, the way that it has this gentle sort of sloping area to it allows you to accommodate a whole bunch of people who are able to still have a view on whatever it is that’s been put on. So it is actually continues to be a really multifunctional space for Rome in that sense. So leading to thinking a little bit further outside of Rome now. Ostia so austere is the spot that crops up at the mouth of the Tiber River as it hits the Mediterranean Sea. So Rome, as we know, is a little bit inland. It’s even more inland today than it was in the ancient period, because ancient Ostia is about six kilometers inland now from where the mouth of the river is now. So there’s that whole shifting way in which soil moves around because of river movements, means that austere is now inland. But I would highly recommend anybody go to Ostia Antica, it is incredible. I don’t think I’m done exploring that site. But it becomes pivotal to Roman power, and pivotal to thinking about power in the region, in this early regal period, as well. So there are some traditional stories associated with Ostia crediting the founding of it to the fourth king Ancius Marcus. And this sort of initial colony seems to be based around control, but also maybe the potential for harvesting salt as much as anything else. But Rome is not the preeminent power in the region, when we’re thinking about the Regal period. So I’m interested in your thoughts on why Ostia is important? And what sort of conflicts they may have faced trying to come to grips with controlling this region?
Neil – History Hound 53:30 Yeah, well, thanks. I think that you’ll see some that you’ve hit across a number of really important points when you’re considering Ostia. So the first thing is that you mentioned is about, again, I keep saying typography, but it is quite inland is four or six kilometers, or there abouts inland from where it would have been. And when again, when you’re considering the ancient world, consider coastlines consider how much they changed. If you’ve been to Pompeii, it’s it was thought that Pompeii was by the coast, a few I went to Richborough in Kent last year. And Richborough was a beachhead for the Roman invasion, or the Claudian invasion. It’s around, it’s a good couple kilometers inland. But if you look at how it was when Claudius it was, it was this little island, this little island of just on with a with this narrow connection to the mainland, and Ephesus, places like that these are places which would look very different. And when I spoke about how the Tiber moved as well, again, the Tiber does move in this instance as well, which kind of confuses things, or makes things more difficult to understand what really went on. So the points that you make about it being strategic are pretty much the rationale if you wanted to boil down. Why does Rome need Ostia? Well, it needs it for three main reasons. The first is that it has access to salt. There are a couple of salt lagoons there which are really important, very nice resource. It means that it can get access to wider trading networks. Because if you’ve got a port that sits just just inland that you mentioned, I think you described it really well, that this wasn’t a port on the coast. This was a was a river port, but it was just in the mouth. In fact, Ostia, I believe comes from mouth of it’s sort of association of that word, meaning that it was the mouth of the river. And it sits or would have sat just as you came in the river would have sat on the south bank. It was a natural harbor that they developed into a port, which makes perfect sense. And the the final reason why this is the third reason why why Rome needed this was because if you’ve got access to who comes in and out of the Tiber, then you’ve, you’re far more secure, because after all, you are downriver of it, or up river or whichever way the tide goes, you needed it for three main reasons really security, you needed it for commerce, and you needed it for a second reason for commerce. So and again, I know we spoke about Civilization [the game] and the importance of salt. So yeah, this was really important for, for Rome, the difficulty with it all is putting together anything, which really builds up a picture of what osteo could have lived before the fourth century BC, mainly because there’s one main building at Ostia that dates to that period, it’s the earliest building to be dating, it’s known as a sort of tower. It’s the castrum, though that said, there is debate about what it did. And the reason I say that is because the the Tiber River changed its course, between the I think it’s between the eighth and sixth centuries, or there abouts it changed its course quite heavily. And so where we think of the castrum being located now to the river, but then it would have been about 600 meters away from the river. So the idea that it was this defensive tower, protecting the river doesn’t really seem to add up. So it’s, it’s not confused, but it’s unsure, perhaps the classification of that building initially, may not be what it was originally intended for. So there’s a bit of debate over as to what that was. But the the central to this is you have these sorted lagoons, you have these lagoons, which become enclosed by natural processes. Now, these obviously can get soaked from sorts very important. Determining, again, determining activity, human activity, there’s quite difficult mainly because there isn’t greater archaeological evidence that goes back. However, there again, there was a paper which I read and looked at some of the drainage channels that were dug, but connecting the salt lagoon to the sea. And it’s, it seems strange that there had been a couple of drainage channels that are made maintained, or no one maintains channels naturally, they have to be done by people and the dating of this maintaining of these drainage channels to ensure that the canal, the canal is connected to salt lagoon, to the sea could date as far back as the ninth century BC up till the sixth century BC. So what I think we probably had, if we were, if we were forced to come up with a speculative suggestion about what’s going on here is that you probably had peoples who were using that lagoon for salt. And what Rome did was early on, it seemed to have got hold of that resource. Exactly when we’re not sure. But again, we got the earliest building as fourth century BC, but prior to that, it’s highly probable that you had something there because again, stone buildings when it comes to Roman fortifications, stone buildings for the latter, you don’t rock up and just build a stone thing. Generally speaking, that is crazy.
Dr G 58:35 You telling me the Romans didn’t come fully formed out of the womb as world dominators?
Neil – History Hound 58:42 Nah nah, you’re mixing it up because it’s Swed- it was the Vikings who had IKEA so they could just have flat pack everything over to build it Romans didn’t have that didn’t have they didn’t have there. Although they did do obviously that when I say flat pack, I’m immediately I’m thinking of the the Punic Wars where they make the boat design from the Phoenicians. But anyway, from Carthage anyway, that aside, what generally happens developments and we see this I did some work and I did a podcast with Dr. Andrew Tibbs. And he was speaking about Roman fortifications in Scotland. And what people don’t realize is most of the time, due to drone technology, you can see these things far easier now because you see the pattern on the ground. Because otherwise from a you could be walking across one and not realize it’s there. Because they would have been originally would the anti wall. A wall never got past the turf stage. It was just originally made of earth. It never is you’d make something of earth or word. And then you’d build it up if you needed to. Because again, sometimes fortifications were temporary. What seems to have happened the Tiber is it’s changed course. So again, you don’t have access to perhaps the areas which would give us evidence. So again, it’s not that we don’t have the evidence there. There could be some fantastic archaeological evidence to determine which day activity around this area. Problem is because the Tiber has moved course it might be directly under the Tiber now, or it could be under some houses near the Tiber. But locating exactly where everything was at this period is still a bit speculative. It’s not where necessary, it is now, what you have now with Ostia, again, it doesn’t suffer so much because it is a site which I’d love to visit, and I’ve heard is wonderful. And it annoys me that I haven’t been there. So stop bringing it up is that you have a much more modern, and by that you have later Republic period, they go all in on Ostia because it’s such an important location. It’s so integral, particularly I think it’s that’s where the fleet for, again, Punic Wars, it’s with the fleet space. So it’s so important to have that developed. So you look at it then and think, yeah, but that probably wasn’t what it looked like 400 years before fact, it might have been in a different place. And Roman port design on way that Roman linked up. Eventually Ostia is – not abandoned, because it’s still kept there – but then move it you have Claudius who sort of redevelops the site. And then you have the basin, the famous basin, which is this – I think it’s an octagon [hexagon], you can actually see from from the sky, if you look, apparently, if you’re flying into one of Rome’s airports.
Dr G 1:01:09 Portus
Neil – History Hound 1:01:09 Yeah, the Portus you can actually see it, it’s there. It’s this perfect, again, I don’t know If it’s an octagon, it’s got a lot of sides to it. And it’s not a circle, but it looks like a circle. That’s my maths for you, you can actually make that out. And that was on the changing. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, it has lighthouse as well, which is very nice, if you like that kind of thing. But anyway, going back to Ostia, again, it’s one of those places which we know is strategically very important to Rome for a number of reasons. But our hands are tied somewhat in understanding more about it because of the way it sits now. And because the structures that are on it now. And this is always a problem. Because if you’ve got a site in antiquity that becomes really popular. It’s usually popular for a reason that that resonates, and later ages. So again, you don’t have that you have that issue. I visited Bath, Roman Bath, good few years ago, and under under it, you can go up, go downstairs, and you look around the Roman remains. And they got the I think was this front of this temple. It looks amazing. And they said we can’t, can’t excavate it. We’ve got this fantastic [building], but we can’t excavate it, because that will probably bring down Bath Cathedral, which would be I understand a bad thing.
Dr G 1:02:20 That would be a shame.
Neil – History Hound 1:02:21 I’ve been to Bath because lovely building it is I think it’s a cathedral, I’m pretty sure. But it doesn’t have great foundations. So you’ve got this. And you’ve got this in modern, modern Rome now and again, with the Tullianum. It’s a great example, if I wanted to go and excavate the Tullianum now, it’s probably not going to happen, because it’s now sitting above a church. So how do you go about that it’s got all of these not restrictions, but blocks to me being able to do that. So we have to go on what we know, which is again, limited, but frustrating. But yeah, Ostia,
Dr Rad 1:02:55 Ah, it’s the curse of regal Rome.
Neil – History Hound 1:02:57 Yeah, they just did it too well. So you almost sympathize. And again, we’re in a so this is great, because we’re in a similar place to Livy. We’re trying to work things out. It’s just that we’re a bit more responsible to our methods than Livy was, though he was obviously a very nice guy. He he’s quite happy to say, Yep, it was named that. Stick it to a king who can reallocate it. Pick a number, any number, oh, you’ve had-
Dr Rad 1:03:21 The best kings, naturally.
Neil – History Hound 1:03:24 Stick to that and then we could talk about how great the Republicans in terms of you know, reshaping it. But these were important spaces, both culturally, and early on in Rome’s development, they were they were developed early for a reason. There was a great importance placed on efficiency. You didn’t just go, you know, fancy developing that area, because it’s nice. And in a few 100 years, 800 years, 900 years, 1000 years, well be worth quite a few quid. People want to build flats? You’re doing it because the immediate generation requires that that resource.
Dr Rad 1:03:57 We’d like a little less malaria, please.
Neil – History Hound 1:04:00 Yeah, a bit less.
Dr G 1:04:03 These hills are nice and all, but man, the mosquitoes
Yeah, too much. It’s too much.
Well, thank you so much, Neil, for sitting down with us and taking us through some of these fascinating details, because I think it’s always a useful exercise to go into that sort of exploratory space, like the intersections between what we can possibly know from an archaeological perspective, what we cannot possibly know because of the limits of that sort of understanding with continuous habitation and just our own inability to get come to grips with the changing nature of the topography over time, which is a natural process and also a human interference process, the further you go along, and to keep in mind that maybe we are all a bit like Livy, I really quite like that.
Neil – History Hound 1:04:57 Yeah, we’re trying to make the best of it. It’s a bit like when you have these detective, they they retrospectively find a detective in, you know, the medieval period or whatnot. And you’re like, okay, they’re working to the same methods, it’s just different technologies. And okay, they may not be doing the same way that we would do it. So I forget the name of there’s a, there was a brilliant show, Cadfael. So there’s Cadfael kicking around. And if anyone’s watched Cadfael, you know,
Dr G 1:05:25 I loved Cadfael.
Neil – History Hound 1:05:27 He’s not got CSI Miami, you know, he’s not, he can’t do a zoom into someone’s genetics on a Coke can or anything. But he’s applying a simple metric that sort of works. And that’s what Livy ultimately is doing. Because there is a lot of pride here. But also, I think the other tricky thing we need to remember. And it’s something which, again, you cover and touch upon in your book – dunno which chapter though – and it’s about – I’m still stirring – and it’s just about how we how we think of the spaces back in antiquity, and how we understand what we can possibly know about them. And I said, that’s something that I’m always I wouldn’t say, tortured by, but you live in hope that something’s going to pop up, that’s going to give you a bit more of an understanding, you know, these are people trying to make decisions. And we’re just going back to the point I made earlier, with Livy, I think there’s a tension there, because how can you have all these great, fantastic things that were built by kings, who were the worst. I mean, one of them was okay. But they were the worst.
Speaker 1 1:06:35 Hey! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, only one of them was really terrible.
Neil – History Hound 1:06:40 That could have been that could have been, this was the sort of bit of your book ‘Rex’ the worst, just the worst. Because actually, again, it is an internal tension within the whole narrative of the regal period is this that yeah, so and so started it, and they built it. And Livy often takes potshots at people going oh, yeah, but they will you know, they it did for them. But you know, there were uncouth. They didn’t mind their manners and the rest.
Dr Rad 1:07:06 Uncouth, my goodness. Shots fired, Livy.
Neil – History Hound 1:07:08 Absolutely. Livy’s dead, right? He’s dead. He’s not coming for me. I’m gonna get someone pop
Dr Rad 1:07:13 Well, you’ve certainly given me a lot to think about. I know that I’m definitely going to go to sleep tonight imagining how Livy’s history be different if he’d had access to drone technology.
Neil – History Hound 1:07:25 Yeah, and if nothing else, think of the My Little Pony show at the Circus Maximus where they dressed up their horses and and paraded them around and made them feel special.
Dr Rad 1:07:35 Well, listeners we hope that you have enjoyed listening to Neil’s absolutely mind blowing knowledge of the early geography of Rome. As you can tell it is well worth listening to Ancient History Hound, if you haven’t already started already. And Neil, thank you so much for joining us. It’s actually a very special episode, not just because it’s a part to a sequel, which we don’t often do, but because it’s actually technically Dr. G’s in my 11 year anniversary today.
Dr G 1:08:04 Oh, today!
Dr Rad 1:08:07 It’s actually on the first of March, but it’s almost the first of March in our time, and it is also a leap year.
Dr G 1:08:11 Oh that’s true.
Neil – History Hound 1:08:13 And if you hear a knock on the door, and there’s someone with a present, that wasn’t me, that’s purely coincidence. But I just want to say thanks very much. I really appreciate you having me on and been able to talk and I hope the listeners have really enjoyed it. Feel free to blame me.
Dr Rad 1:08:31 Oh, the pleasure is all ours.
Neil – History Hound 1:08:32 If you haven’t enjoyed it, If you haven’t enjoyed it, you can find me on social media.
Dr Rad 1:08:38 I think we’ve established that we don’t appreciate these sorts of comments.
Dr G 1:08:42 Five star reviews only.
Dr Rad 1:08:43 Thank you. Yeah, yes, exactly.
Dr G 1:08:46 Yeah, you can write whatever you want in the comment – five stars.
Dr Rad 1:08:49 You want to take your rage out anyone aim at the podcast on the massive networks. We’re independents.
Dr G 1:09:08 Thank you for listening to this episode of The Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you’re keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book wrecks the seven kings of Rome at partialhistorians.com Until next time, we are yours Ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Factional Foibles
Jun 13, 2024
We jump into the year of 402 BCE and Rome and Veii are tooth and nail in siege mode. In addition to this, Rome is rapidly approaching the end of the 5th century BCE, a date that is meaningful for historians and scholars but less significant for the Romans who understood the years through the names of the magistrates more than being overly interested in the base ten system.
Episode 151 – Factional Foibles
Watch your back!
Rome’s siege of Veii continues so there’s good reason to see six military tribunes with consular power in the role this year. But it may be the case that Rome’s military preoccupation with Veii is about to become costly. Just ask the Rome’s new garrison at Anxur in Volscian territory…
Siege Developments
Now you’d be forgiven for thinking a siege is not the most exciting form of warfare. And if it was just Rome versus Veii, it may indeed have remained a boring affair. But sometime in this year, it seems that Veil’s northern neighbours have realised that Veii falling to Rome might be terrible for them. Enter the Capenantes and Falscians and cue siege chaos! How will the situation be resolved? Tune in to find out.
Map of Veii including cities to the north Capena (Capenantes) and Falerii (Falsicans).
Things to Listen Out For
The joys of Cornettos
Skipping through the daisies
A hideous sandwich situation
Consideration of the extent of the powers of the tribunes of the plebs
A potted introduction to the 3rd century CE writer Dio Cassius
Some details about the archaeological record between Veii and Rome during this period
A new record with the Partial Pick!
A very late background contribution from one of our star podcats 🙂
Our Players for 402 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Gaius Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat)
Quintus Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat)
Lucius Verginius L. f. Opetr. N. Tricostus Esquilinus (Pat)
Quintus Sulpicius Ser. f. Ser. n. Camerinus Cornutus (Pat)
Aulus Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus (Pat)
Maelius Sergius L. f. L. n. Fidenas (Pat)
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy 5.8.1
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.38.1; Fragmentvm de Praenominibus; Fasti Capitolini; Dio Cassius Book 6.23ish
Arizza, M., Rossi, D. 2022. ‘The territory between Veii and Rome in the Archaic period: Rural structures as territorial markers of cultural frontiers’ Frontière.s, Revue d’archèologie, histoire et histoire de l’art Volume 6: 49-62. https://journals.openedition.org/frontieres/1297
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Map of Veii from The Cities and Cemeteries of Etruria by George Dennis 1848
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.
Dr G 0:33 And I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr rad, no longer afraid to say my Ps
Dr G 1:03 And I am Dr G. Goodness knows what foreshadowing that entails.
Dr Rad 1:09 Well, I can definitely assure you there’ll be lots of patricians and plebeians running around in this episode. So it’s good not to have to worry about saying my Ps. Thanks very much. Patreons for the microphone buffery-sock type thing.
Dr G 1:22 Ah, the pop filter.
Dr Rad 1:24 Yes, exactly. I can say however many damn Ps I want now. Peas and ham. Peas and ham, peas and carrots.
Dr G 1:31 Mind your P’s and Q’s, please.
Dr Rad 1:34 I never do.
Dr G 1:36 Just like the patricians.
Dr Rad 1:38 Exactly. Well, welcome Dr, G, so good to see you again.
Dr G 1:42 Likewise.
Dr Rad 1:44 So we are hosting an ancient Roman History podcast, if you somehow manage to miss the introduction, and we are tracing the journey of Rome from the founding of the city and Dr G, I think this might be the last episode before we cross the boundary to a new century.
Dr G 2:07 That’s very exciting.
Dr Rad 2:08 It is. I honestly kind of got very comfortable with the four hundreds. I kind of felt like we were never gonna leave.
Dr G 2:16 But time marches forward.
Dr Rad 2:19 Indeed it does. Before we get into 402 BCE, which is where we are up to, Dr G, I thought we should probably recap on what was a momentous year in 403 BCE.
Dr G 2:30 Yes. Now, if memory serves, 403 was the start of what will be the introduction of Camillus.
Dr Rad 2:38 It was, I mean, it was very, we’re touching that. Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 2:44 That’s the big standout for me, anyway. Me of few and fragmentary sources.
Dr Rad 2:49 Yes, yes, I understand you’re grasping at straws.
Dr G 2:54 Ouch.
Dr Rad 2:55 Yes. Now look 403. For Livy, it was certainly a bumpy year, because we had lots of speechifying from Appius Claudius, of course, saying a lot of things that were quite frankly, downright offensive.
Dr G 3:09 Typical Appius Claudius behavior, I would say.
Dr Rad 3:13 Yeah, and yet, there was an element of pragmatism to what he had to say. I acknowledge that. But really the reason why he was speechifying, Dr G, was that there were enormous issues, once again, between the patricians and the plebeians, because we are, of course, still in the Conflict of the Orders.
Dr G 3:34 That situation, it will have to resolve at some point. Or will it?
Dr Rad 3:38 Yeah, and it’s definitely the ongoing repercussions about this idea of soldiers serving all year round, the idea of military pay. These are the kinds of things that they are dealing with whilst waging a very long term campaign against the city of Veii, which is an Etruscan place.
Dr G 3:57 Yes, and Etruscans, they’re just to the north of the Romans, there’s a lot of cross cultural exchange going on, and it has been for a long time, but it seems that the conflict is coming to a head, as it were, in this period. So it is, we’re seeing an escalation of the conflict.
Dr Rad 4:16 Yeah, it’s been going on. It’s been keeping us company, really, all throughout the four hundreds. You know, every now and then, just when we think things are getting peaceful, conflict with they appears again.
Dr G 4:25 Well, yes, and if you’ll indulge me.
Dr Rad 4:27 Oh, I always am willing to indulge you.
Dr G 4:30 Since I lack vast amounts of source material
Dr Rad 4:34 fair enough,
Dr G 4:34 I thought I would do a little bit of a recap on, like, some of the touchstones of the relationship between Veii and Rome so far.
Dr Rad 4:42 Oh, okay, yeah, this is a recap. I’m settling in.
Dr G 4:46 Sit back and relax, listeners. So we have Romulus’ victory over Veii very early.
Dr Rad 4:56 Just how short of source material are you?
Dr G 4:59 Very! It’s embarrassing how few sources I have. Ancus Marcius also is reputed to have a victory over Veii. Then we have a couple of characters, and I’m not sure that we’ve touched on them very much in particular, Aulus and Caelius Verbenna.
Dr Rad 5:20 Now, these are people whose names are familiar to me because of the Servius Tullius connection.
Dr G 5:27 Now, these are brothers from Vulci, and Rome is thought to have been in some sort of mediation with Veii about receiving these two.
Dr Rad 5:38 Right.
Dr G 5:39 And then we have Servius Tullius himself having his own war with Veii.
Dr Rad 5:43 Hmmm, he does.
Dr G 5:46 And then there’s a whole Tarquinius mystery. Is it Tarquinius Priscus? Is it Tarquinius Superbus? There is a request for Veii to send their master craftsman, a guy called Vulca, to come to Rome to do some terracotta work.
Dr Rad 6:04 Sounds important.
Dr G 6:06 It is because it’s related to the gods, and apparently some of the things in the Capitoline Temple, the very early version-
Dr Rad 6:14 Ooo I remember that
Dr G 6:16 -were produced by this master craftsman from Veii,
Dr Rad 6:20 Typical Etruscans.
Dr G 6:21 So a little bit of cultural exchange, and then we’re right back into conflict.
Dr Rad 6:26 Actual conflict.
Dr G 6:27 Actual conflict. So they support Taquinius Superbus when he’s exiled from Rome; a bit of a safe haven for him there…
Dr Rad 6:34 Because they’re the worst.
It certainly doesn’t put them in Rome’s good books. And when we get to the Republic, almost the first thing that happens is Valerius Publicola, very famous, very loved by the people.
Absolutely.
Dr G 6:49 He triumphs over Veii in 509.
Dr Rad 6:52 Naturally.
Dr G 6:53 Doesn’t take him long to be like, You know what? Veii’s no good. We need to deal with that, it doesn’t matter if we don’t have kings anymore,
Dr Rad 6:59 They’re too close,
Dr G 7:00 They’re too close, and we don’t like it
Dr Rad 7:01 Too close. Too close for comfort!
Dr G 7:04 Way too close. And you know, who else thinks they’re too close?
Dr Rad 7:07 Sammy Davis Jr.
Dr G 7:11 Well, yes. But also the Fabii
Dr Rad 7:14 Ah, of course.
Dr G 7:15 Yeah, the whole gens goes to war against Veii. Completely unsuccessful. Wipes them all out, basically. Except for one, apparently,
Dr Rad 7:24 Ohhh he managed to spread his seed.
Dr G 7:27 And lucky, otherwise, the family would have been gone absolutely. So part of the issue for the Fabii seems to be that their territory is part of the adjacent landscape of Veii’s area of control.
Dr Rad 7:42 Wait, are you telling me that patricians were acting out of self interest?
Dr G 7:46 I would never suggest such a thing.
Dr Rad 7:49 Wow.
Dr G 7:50 But I might openly tell you, it’s certainly what’s going on. It seems in 477, and it’s a big loss.
Dr Rad 7:59 It is.
Dr G 8:00 It’s a blow for Rome. There’s no question about that moment.
Dr Rad 8:03 A moment of silence for Camera.
Dr G 8:06 This leads to a truce between Veii and Rome in 474, which quickly is overturned by Veii, because they don’t seem to care about that truce.
Dr Rad 8:14 Why would they? They just really, really won a massive victory.
Dr G 8:17 Yeah, and they use that truce to then take Fidenae.
Dr Rad 8:20 Ah Fidenae.
Dr G 8:22 Yeah, going back into the memory books
Dr Rad 8:24 Such a sore spot.
Dr G 8:26 And this really makes Rome mad, and they’re like, You know what, not happy about this, and they’re even less happy when they find out that they has elevated a guy called Lars Tolumnius to be the king.
Dr Rad 8:37 Ah Lars Tolumnius.
Dr G 8:38 It doesn’t end well for him. I think there was some stabbing to the groin. It wasn’t great.
Dr Rad 8:45 No, it wasn’t.
Dr G 8:46 But the Faliscans, who are nearby neighbors as well, they support Veii in this offensive against Rome, led by Lars Tolumnius. Doesn’t go well; Veii loses.
Dr Rad 8:56 They do.
Dr G 8:57 A new truce is formed.
Dr Rad 8:59 It is indeed
Dr G 9:00 So that’s and that’s what 437
Dr Rad 9:04 Well, if we believe the dates, yeah.
Dr G 9:08 I would suggest caution. But let’s say hypothetically, 437 that we’ve got this whole relationship between Veii and Rome that extends back right to the early kingship period, as far as our written sources are concerned. And this would probably make sense, because they’re so close geographically.
Dr Rad 9:26 Well, that’s just it. I mean, there’s always, I think going to be that conflict between the Etruscans in general and the Romans, because the Romans aspire to be a great empire in the sense that they want to expand. Obviously, like, I’m not saying right at this point. They’re like, Oh, and a Mediterranean Empire would be lovely, but they obviously want to expand. They obviously are an ambitious people’s, let’s say, and the Etruscans therefore gonna stand in their way. You know.
Dr G 9:55 Yeah, and there’s nothing quite like having your close neighbor sort of just. Sort of push the fence one meter, exactly, cutting off a little bit of your space, to open up a little bit of space for them taking your cow, yeah. And when you say, excuse me, yeah,
Dr Rad 10:13 excuse me,
Dr G 10:14 excuse me, what are you doing? And it’s like, no, no. That fence has always been there, yeah?
Dr Rad 10:21 And that’s when they go to the central records department and they have to put an application to look at the property boundaries.
Dr G 10:27 Everybody’s got to look at the standing stone ring. Like, Oh, guys, did you move that rock in the night? No, certainly not. Not I.
Dr Rad 10:34 Not I. Way too heavy.
Dr G 10:36 And when the cows start moving in a different language, and you’re like, wait a minute
Dr Rad 10:41 Excuse me?
Dr G 10:44 Are you speaking Etruscan? And it’s like, moo,
Dr Rad 10:46 Yeah, exactly suspicious.
Dr G 10:48 So yeah, we’ve got this sort of long history of conflict. This long build up has is on the cards. So it’s not a surprise that we’re now in this what seems to be like a bit of a showdown situation.
Dr Rad 11:00 It is a showdown, as I said, Harry Potter, Voldemort, one of them has to die in order for this situation to work. And that’s where we were at last time. So in 403, there was a there was a lot of debate about what was going to happen internally, as in, like, where were they going to take this whole idea of winter service and military pay, and how this was going to work. And this why Appius Claudius got on his little soapbox, but it took a disaster at Veii, you know, on the front lines during this siege warfare that they’ve got going on in order to win everybody over to the idea of, look, guys, we’ve just got a soldier on and do our bit. And Rome ended up in a really lovely place in that we had all these people volunteering to serve. Essentially, this story is clearly trying to tell us that this is a moment when we see an expansion of the cavalry in Rome, because we had the men-who-have-horses,-but-the-state-doesn’t-pay-for-them-yet club turn into the men-who-have-horses-and-the-state-pays-for-them club.
Dr G 11:56 Sweet.
Dr Rad 11:57 I know. So we’ve obviously got the expansion of the army, which is following on the back of this idea of military pay and people who actually serving all year round, potentially, and that’s kind of where we ended up. So Rome was in a really happy place, because everyone felt like, you know what, we’re all working together.
Dr G 12:14 Although, having the equestrians have their cavalry side paid for by the state. Does sound like rich people giving a handout to other rich people? And I’m not sure that I’m on board with that…
Dr Rad 12:27 Isn’t that what Rome is all about?
Dr G 12:30 No wonder the Conflict of the Orders isn’t over.
Dr Rad 12:32 Exactly, exactly. And so 403, we did end up in a happy place, in that everyone felt really awesome about everyone volunteering, not just cavalry, infantry, two lots of people saying, Sign me up. I’ll do whatever it takes. Appius Claudius, you’re the man. And that’s kind of where we ended up in a in a real party situation, yeah. And so I think it’s time for me, for us, to delve into 402 BCE.
All right. Dr, G, given your paucity of source material. Please tell me who are the magistracies for 402 BCE?
Dr G 13:39 Thank you for this gift. It’ll be the last time I speak in this episode. Listen carefully. So we have six military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad 13:50 Six you say? Methinks Rome might be at war.
Dr G 13:54 It is an awful lot, maybe too many. Anyway, we have Gaius Servilius Ahala, one of our recent favorites, one of our recent guys, previously military tribune with consular power in 408 and 407 is bad. We then have Quintus Servilius Fidenas. This is the start of what will be an illustrious career.
Dr Rad 14:21 And clearly he has some sort of relation to the colony of Fidenae, I would say.
Dr G 14:26 One would assume or the conquest of Fidenae.
Dr Rad 14:29 Exactly.
Dr G 14:30 Yeah. Then we have Lucius Verginius Opiter Tricostus Esquilinus.
Dr Rad 14:37 Unusual name.
Dr G 14:39 Oh, well, see, this is why we’re friends. I’ve written “most unusual name” in my notes.
Dr Rad 14:44 I mean, most of it’s fine. It’s that Opiter.
Dr G 14:48 Opiter is odd, and I don’t think we’ve seen it before.
Dr Rad 14:51 We certainly have not. All the rest totally normal.
Dr G 14:53 Yeah. And Opiter is a praenomen. So to give the full extent of his name. He’s: Lucius Verginiu, son of Lucius, granson of Opiter, Tricostus Esquilinus. So Opiter is the name of the grandfather. And you would think, well, that’s odd, because the prinomens follow a very sort of specific pattern. There’s not that many of them. We haven’t encountered an Opiter before. What’s going on? Now we have a very late source called the “Fragments of Praenomens”,
Dr Rad 15:27 Oh, okay
Dr G 15:27 Which is amazing.
Dr Rad 15:28 I’ve never heard of it before. Tell me more.
Dr G 15:30 The “Fragmentvm de Praenominibus”
Dr Rad 15:34 Well done. Well done.
Dr G 15:35 Yeah, thank you, tripping over my Latin wherever I can. And the suggestion there is that Opiter is the name given to a son whose father had died but whose grandfather still lived.
Dr Rad 15:49 Wow.
Dr G 15:50 Yeah. Like, yeah. This is a sort of complicated scenario where, yeah, the first generation is missing somehow at the birth of the child, yeah, but I don’t know why that would necessarily so now you have to call so whatever happened in this family line? The guy called Opiter is the guy who must have been born without his own father, right, having been alive at the time.
Dr Rad 16:15 It’s quite a family history in that name then.
Dr G 16:17 Yeah
Dr Rad 16:18 And the twist
Dr G 16:19 Plot twist! Yeah, not everybody lives. Disaster. So we might see some of those sorts of names coming up again, but it does tend to be quite unusual.
Dr Rad 16:30 I’m intrigued, yes.
Dr G 16:32 Likewise, we also have Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Cornutus.
Dr Rad 16:40 Sounds like a delicious ice cream.
Dr G 16:43 What flavor do would you like? Camerinus Cornutus, of course.
Dr Rad 16:46 Exactly. I love a Cornutus in the summer.
Dr G 16:49 This guy is also new to the role, but he does have form. There is a bit of a legacy with this family as well. Then I don’t think we’ve seen a Cornutus for a little while.
Dr Rad 16:59 No, but I feel like we have. And, you know, I probably should mention, Dr G, because I’m assuming that Cornetto ice creams are found worldwide, but they may indeed just be an Australian delight. So I’m just going to say that that’s what I’m referring to. I believe they’re at least in the UK, but yeah, for anyone else who lives in a non Cornetto land, I apologize for my in-joke about ice cream,
Dr G 17:22 If you do not have cornettos, please like, share and subscribe and tell us all about what ice creams you do have.
Dr Rad 17:29 Exactly, we’d love to know.
Dr G 17:32 So the chief legacy of the Cornetto is that you can – it’s about eating the cone as well as the ice cream. You think to yourself, that’s not special. But somehow, when you’re a child, that’s very special.
Dr Rad 17:41 It is, yeah.
Dr G 17:44 So the Cornuti or Cornutii, I suppose I should say, go back to the Regal period.
Dr Rad 17:50 Okay.
Dr G 17:51 One of these guy’s ancestors is somebody who was conspiring to restore the Tarquins back into power. Super. So we’re talking an arch conservative family.
Dr Rad 18:02 Yeah. Uh-oh you’re in trouble.
Dr G 18:09 And then jumping forward 50 or so years, yeah, another Cornutii was one of the decemvirs, so the form is strong with this one.
Dr Rad 18:22 I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
Dr G 18:24 Let us not go back to those dark days.
Dr Rad 18:28 Where did that take us? Like 20 episodes to get through the Decemvirate which apparently lasted for two years, disaster.
Dr G 18:35 This is what happens when you make a mess out of the political situation. Guys, we have to spend ages trying to figure out what’s going on. Our fifth military tribune with consular power is Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, also previously military tribune with consular power in 405, and you might see him again in the future.
Dr Rad 18:57 I think I might.
Dr G 18:57 And last, but certainly not least, Maelius Sergius Fidenas.
Dr Rad 19:04 Another with the connection to Fidenae.
Dr G 19:07 Indeed, and he was previously in the same post in 404. So yeah, we’ve got a so it’s kind of like a balance between people who are new to the role, yeah, and people who have served before.
Dr Rad 19:19 Indeed, it is. Well, I’m exhausted, end of episode,
Dr G 19:24 And we’re done. Thanks for tuning in.
Dr Rad 19:26 Yeah. Okay, so as you pointed out, we do have a real mixture of people who are serving as consular tribunes. However, one thing that we do not have a mixture of, Dr G, is patricians and plebeians. Once again, it’s an entirely patrician cast of characters.
Dr G 19:40 It is a clean sweep for the elite.
Dr Rad 19:42 Yes, it is now, as you can imagine, given the fact that we had a disaster at Veii last time, the Romans are very focused on what’s happening at Veii at this point in time. However, unfortunately, they don’t seem to be able to multitask, because whilst they’re focusing on Veii they neglect the new garrison at Anxur.
Dr G 20:04 Uh oh. Now Anxur has come up before, hasn’t it?
Dr Rad 20:08 We just spoke about it. They have just conquered it. So it’s a very recent addition to the Roman, dare I say, Empire…
Dr G 20:17 And they are about to lose it again.
Dr Rad 20:19 Well, okay, so what basically happened was they were obviously feeling pretty confident, I guess, about what was happening there, and they therefore gave a lot of the soldiers furlough. So a lot of the soldiers skipping through the neighboring fields and making daisy chains and going shopping in nearby towns, just having a grand old time. However, even those who were left behind because obviously, they didn’t literally let everybody go, that would be madness. They do have guards, but the guards aren’t really checking people properly. So they’re not getting them to take off their shoes. They’re not getting their laptops, you know, in the tray. They’re just allowing people who are Volscians – and Anxur we should probably say was initially Volscians territory just allowing volscians traders in and out without properly checking. What are they carrying with them? Who are they? Where’s your passport? Where’s your five forms of identification? I’m
Dr G 21:15 I’m just gonna have to look into your cart for a moment.
Dr Rad 21:18 Exactly. Yeah, there’s none of that happening. And so as soon as the Volscians realize, I guess, that this is what’s going on, they very quickly overpower the tiny guard force that has been left behind, and Anxur is retaken.
Dr G 21:33 Oh, disaster.
Dr Rad 21:34 I know. I can’t believe it, because it was such a big win when they took this place, sloppy work. It really is. Now, the only silver lining is that not a lot of Romans perish during this because, of course, they’re all out shopping. I was gonna say they’re all in the fields having picnics and stuff. They’re in the neighboring area, but they’re not actually in the town. Hence the problem. The only people who die are those who’d been left behind because they were too sick to go, which seems really sad.
Dr G 22:00 Oh, okay, so they had worked hard to capture Anxur, but they had been injured in the process, and now they had paid for it with their lives.
Dr Rad 22:08 Well, Livy actually does say sick. I’m not sure if they’re actually I’m not sure if it’s like an injury, per se. He’s not, he’s not very specific.
Dr G 22:15 They’ve just come down with a heavy cold, exactly like I can’t get up.
Dr Rad 22:18 Yeah, go shopping for me. Guys, bring me back a daisy chain. Anyway, so that’s not good news. Now let’s shift our attention today, because I’m sure you’re dying to know what’s happening there. Once again, Dr. G, I find myself in a familiar situation, one which amuses me, but also frustrates me, and that is that the commanders who are in charge at they, at this point in time, seem to be far more preoccupied without doing each other than in actually defeating they. And we have seen this a number of times with our patricians.
Dr G 22:55 I was gonna say this is part of the trouble of being part of the elite is that your primary focus is one upmanship. It is not the good of the state.
Dr Rad 23:06 No, it isn’t. And this is very evident. So basically, not much is happening at bay because they’re just like looking at each other, going, what are you doing? I don’t know what are you doing?
Dr G 23:15 Well, sounds like a classic siege. People have got their magazines out and, you know, solving sudokus together from across the wall, somebody on the defensive side is like, have you tried three in that square?
Dr Rad 23:28 And the commanders are saying, I solve the New York Times crossword puzzle. You what? That’s impossible. Anyway, there’s a little bit more pressure added, though, because all of a sudden, Dr G, Veii has some allies that join the siege.
Dr G 23:43 Oh
Dr Rad 23:44 Yeah, I know. Now, famously, when they went to the rest of Etruria and said, Hey, how about we Etruscan power this and just defeat Rome together? And they all said, How about no?
Dr G 23:56 With our powers combined, we are Captain Etruria!
Dr Rad 23:59 Exactly. And they said, No, we’re not doing that. The suits are lame and we can’t be bothered. So no one was perhaps expecting that this was going to happen. But Appius Claudius did warn that this was a possibility. You know that you don’t know how long the Etruscans are going to allow Veii to fly solo. And sure enough, we get the Capenates and the Faliscans joining in the fun. Now, this actually makes complete sense. It’s not because they’re looking at Veii going, Oh, look at them all alone fighting Rome. It’s because they are relatively close to Veii.
Dr G 24:36 I was gonna say, is it because they’re the next dominos to fall?
Dr Rad 24:39 Exactly. They’ve put two and two and two together. It’s taken a couple of years, but they’ve gone wait a second…
Dr G 24:44 Hold up…
Dr Rad 24:45 If there’s no more Veii, that means that the Romans are gonna be looking at us.
Dr G 24:49 Veii is a great buffer place. We should probably retain that,
Dr Rad 24:54 Exactly, and they suddenly realize this. Now I actually do have a map which is uncharacteristic
Dr G 25:00 I was gonna say, goodness me. Dr. Rad, what is going on?
Dr Rad 25:03 Because I knew you’re gonna say, I knew you’re gonna say, where exactly are these places?
Dr G 25:06 Yeah, because I certainly haven’t looked them up, because I don’t have enough source material to know that they were even mentioned.
Dr Rad 25:11 Well, look, I’m glad I had a map, because it’s really difficult to describe this. They are north of a, like, directly north of a so it is literally a domino effect that we’re talking about here. Look, they’re slightly, like the Capenates are probably slightly northeast, perhaps, but essentially, if Veii falls, you can totally see that they are the next in line, and the Faliscans are just a little bit beyond them.
Dr G 25:34 Alright, so they both have a pretty vested interest in making sure Veii has a high level of defense and gets through this siege unscathed.
Dr Rad 25:42 Yeah, absolutely. Now, in terms of who these people are, obviously, we don’t have tons of information about them, but they seem to have spoken a dialect of Latin.
Dr G 25:53 Oh, intriguing.
Dr Rad 25:54 I know, right.
Dr G 25:55 This would make Veii then a cultural outpost amongst Etrurian cities, if they’re surrounded by Latin speakers.
Dr Rad 26:04 A dialect of Latin. I mean, I don’t know how close that we I don’t know how close we’re talking, but yes, yeah, it is interesting, certainly. But it just speaks to the melting pot that is this region where Etruria and the Latins are meeting.
Dr G 26:18 Yeah, definitely.
Dr Rad 26:19 Yeah. Anywho now, the Romans already did not like the Faliscans, which I think is a shame, because I find their name delightful, but this is because they had fought on the wrong side in the fight over Fidenae, which you mentioned in your recap.
Dr G 26:35 Mistakes were made.
Dr Rad 26:36 Mistakes were made. Now what this means is we have got reinforced troops massively hitting the Roman camp. Okay, the Romans are scared out of their little tunics because this is completely unexpected, and it seems like the people of they weren’t expecting it either, like the Capenates and the Faliscans literally just like, rock up. And they’re like, let’s do this. I gotta get home before my slow cooker goes off. Yeah. Now where they hit the Roman camp is right where Maelius Sergius is commanding.
Dr G 27:12 Awkward.
Dr Rad 27:12 Yeah, okay. They think that maybe this is a sign that all of Etruria is uniting against them now, which would be terrifying.
Dr G 27:23 It’s a sign, guys, they’re all coming. It’s just these ones got here first.
Dr Rad 27:27 Yeah exactly, these are the closest. Now the people in the town of a also feel their morale rising, because they’re also like, oh my god, is this a sign that all of Etruria is uniting against the Romans. So everyone who’s having very strong emotions about this scenario here. Yeah, and it basically means that the Roman camp is being attacked from two different sides.
Dr G 27:49 It’s never a good sign in a military situation, when you’re you’ve got to defend against two frontiers.
Dr Rad 27:55 Exactly.
Dr G 27:56 Anybody who study any warfare is already being like, Uh oh, yeah, not looking good.
Dr Rad 28:00 Don’t be surrounded. Yeah. Now this is obviously totally surprising, and so the soldiers are really struggling with this sudden scenario, and they’re not really dealing with either attack very well. As a result, it’s, I think, a bit of a scramble, if we’re being honest,
Dr G 28:15 I was gonna say, and it’s like, you know, it takes time to put down your crossword and put your breastplate on, get yourself in formation and think about whether it’s going to be a tortoise or whatever.
Dr Rad 28:25 Yeah. So this particular camp, they’re hoping that the Romans in the main camp will see what’s happening, or find out what’s happening and send help stat. Then they would be able, with their reinforcements to deal with the fact that they’re being attacked from completely different directions. However, the main camp is under the control of a different military tribune with consular power, one Verginius,
Dr G 28:52 Hmm okay.
Dr Rad 28:54 Now Sergius and Verginius. These are our military tribunes with consular power that have major beef and hate each other’s guts.
Dr G 29:05 Oh no. Why do we think that is? Or does Livy give us some rationale here?
Dr Rad 29:09 No, just that they hate each other.
Dr G 29:12 It’s just the way it goes. When you’re a patrician, some of those guys you can’t stand, and some of them are your best friends.
Dr Rad 29:18 Exactly, exactly. Now back in the main camp, Verginius does hear about the danger that the Romans are in, but he refuses to do anything about it, saying that, look, if Sergius needs help, he’ll ask for it. I’m not going to send help. If he doesn’t ask for it, he can handle it, obviously, up until that point, but he has to ask. Sergius refuses to ask for help because he does not want Verginius stealing his victory. He would rather lose than have Verginius come to his rescue and win.
Dr G 29:50 Oh well, Sergius, I hate to break it to you, but that’s hubris, and I don’t know if it’s going to work out for you.
Dr Rad 29:55 It is not going to work out for you
Dr G 29:56 This is what. So I think this is where virtus, this idea of Roman manliness, which is all about the courage and being on the front foot and doing it yourself and all of that kind of stuff, gets twisted potentially into some dangerous behaviors, just ego that may not play out very well.
Dr Rad 30:19 Yeah, so basically, we have the most hideous sandwich situation I’ve ever seen, where Romans are being attacked on either side, they’re just being slaughtered in the middle of these two attacking forces, and eventually they just have to give up and run.
Dr G 30:34 Oh no. And the central camp has done nothing.
Dr Rad 30:37 Done nothing because they’ve been waiting for a specific request for help.
Dr G 30:42 Lame.
Dr Rad 30:43 Yeah. Now only a small amount of those who manage to run away actually make it back to the main camp, the main part of the army that manages to get out, plus Sergius, they run back to Rome.
Dr G 30:57 Now, fair enough, I will probably do that as well be like guys, yeah.
Dr Rad 31:01 Now the advantage of this happening is that Sergius then throws Verginius right under the bus, places all the blame for what has just happened on wiginius and demanding that he be recalled and lieutenants placed in charge of the main camp.
Dr G 31:19 Oooh. So deposed actually from being a military tribune with consular power?
Dr Rad 31:24 Well, sorry, actually, reface that, I think. Just recalled from his command.
Dr G 31:28 Okay.
Dr Rad 31:29 Yeah, yeah, so recalled from being in charge of the main camp. The Senate discussed the issue. They are supremely unimpressed by what is going on here. And it kind of seems like maybe the Senate as well has split loyalties between Sergius and Verginius as well. There’s a lot of slappy fighting going,
Dr G 31:52 Well, look, this doesn’t surprise me. This is kind of we’re now in the factional politics.
Dr Rad 31:57 It is 100% factional, yeah. So no one is really thinking about, hey, what about Rome? What about the state? They’re all just thinking about these guys. Eventually, the leading senators say, You know what, rather than get caught up in this beef between these two guys, let’s just not deal with their fighting. Let’s just ignore them and just get rid of all the tribunes for this year and have elections early. But just like clean slate it guys, can’t be bothered. Can’t be bothered.
Dr G 32:29 Okay, but is the consequence of this that they will recall all of the armed forces that are sitting under those military tribunes that are outside Veii?
Dr Rad 32:39 I don’t think so. Because obviously, given that we’ve got a siege going on here, and there would be people who are underneath these men, I think that they’d be temporarily in charge whilst they sorted out elections, right?
Dr G 32:51 Okay.
Dr Rad 32:51 They don’t specifically say this, but there’s no word of ending the siege, so I presume that that’s what would happen, that they would just leave someone in charge and get some new ones? Yeah,
Dr G 33:01 Yeah, the Senate sends you a little letter being like, you’re out of here having elections.
Dr Rad 33:05 Either that or those men continue to serve until their replacements arrive. But yeah, there’s no, there’s no mention made of ending the siege at Veii. It’s just this situation of you know what? It would just be easier just to toss these ones out and get new ones, an attitude I do not endorse when it comes to consumable goods in our modern day world,
Dr G 33:24 but certainly applicable for politicians,
Dr Rad 33:25 It certainly is. Now the other military tribunes with consular power who actually really are the victims here because they’ve done nothing wrong. They’re okay with this. So the senators are getting ready to vote, but then Sergius and Verginius come and say, oh my god, can like, can you just like, not do this? It’d be like, so embarrassing if this is how our careers end. Like, this is how our, you know, stint as military tribunes with consular power, like, came to an end? Like, please just like, don’t like,
Dr G 33:59 But isn’t this already having been instigated by Sergius in some way?
Dr Rad 34:05 Oh, he 100% brought it upon himself.
Dr G 34:07 But now, but he doesn’t want he’s like, now that the Senate has decided that they’re just going to get rid of this lot, he’s like, Excuse me, that’s not the solution?
Dr Rad 34:15 I think he was hoping that Verginius would get recalled and he would be able to trot off and, you know, go back to the campaign.
Dr G 34:22 Sergius is having a sad in Rome.
Dr Rad 34:25 Yeah, absolutely. So they had decided that they were just going to veto what the Senate had decided. Because at this point in time, obviously senatorial decisions are not like legally binding. It’s just like a recommendation, like, have you thought of having Have you considered elections? Yeah, and obviously, if everyone was going to go along with it, I don’t know, you know, I don’t know how much they really could have done here, but they were basically like, No, this is not going to happen over my dead body. I’m not going to give up power day early. And don’t you dare ask me. Now this is where the tribunes of the plebs come into the story.
Dr G 35:03 Ah ha.
Dr Rad 35:03 They had said nothing up to this point. They’ve been very good. They had been itching to say something, but they thought it was best not to, after everything that happened the year before, what was Appius Claudius giving an epic speech that just never ended. We don’t want to impose that on anyone.
Dr G 35:18 We don’t want to sit through that again.
Dr Rad 35:19 We do not. But now they demand that the military tribunes, as in Sergius and Verginius, obey the Senate, or it’s straight to prison with the two of you, and you can think about what you have done.
Dr G 35:33 We’ve got a naughty room. It’s time to put some people in it.
Dr Rad 35:36 Exactly. Now, this is where Ahala makes his appearance.
Dr G 35:41 Mr Armpit himself
Dr Rad 35:43 Indeed. So he is one of the other military tribunes with consular power. He has done nothing wrong up until this point.
Dr G 35:49 A military tribune with consular power of the name Ahala?
Dr Rad 35:53 Yes, he was the first one on your list.
Dr G 35:55 Well, no, I mean, he’s a military tribune with consular power, as far as I’m aware.
Dr Rad 36:00 Wait, what did I say? He’s a military tribune with consular power. So,
Dr G 36:06 Yeah, I thought you said he was a tribune.
Dr Rad 36:08 No, okay, let me rephrase this. Okay, so the tribunes of the plebs have come along and done the threat, then one of the other military tribunes with consular power responds to this threat.
Dr G 36:19 Okay, okay.
Dr Rad 36:20 All right, so Ahala makes his appearance, and he says, I’d like to see the tribunes of the plebs try to throw one of us in prison. You have absolutely no right to do that. Once again, tributes of the plebs going mad with power and imagining they have all these magical possibilities.
Dr G 36:43 Yeah. I mean, they’re supposed to be looking after the plebeian concerns. You know, you can’t go after patricians like this.
Dr Rad 36:49 Yeah. He’s like, You know what? I don’t think you have the guts to do it anyway. All you guys do is hang around Rome and wait for fights between the military tribunes with consular power, and then you just swoop in and cause problems right now. If you keep making this an issue, Ahala is prepared to name a dictator. He’ll name a dictator right now, and then the dictator can do whatever the hell they like, and the tribune of the plebs can’t do nothing about it.
Dr G 37:21 Okay, well, there’s a big threat.
Dr Rad 37:23 Exactly, and everyone’s like Ahala, that was amazing. We love you and we love the sentiment. So the other military tribunes, they all agree, after this whole exchange, that it would do best just to throw the towel in and resign early. Okay?
Dr G 37:41 So rather than put a dictator in place, they’re going to take the recommended measure by the Senate?
Dr Rad 37:48 Yeah, and just resign early.
Dr G 37:51 Yeah, so it’s gotten – the whole thing – tensions have escalated to such a point, and people have been making all sorts of threats, yeah, and now they’re like, Okay, we’ll step down early.
Dr Rad 38:00 It kind of ends abruptly. I was, I was gearing up for something really epic here, but that’s where it ends.
Dr G 38:05 Yeah, look, I feel like that. That is not the situation. It doesn’t feel narratively like what you think it’s going to be.
Dr Rad 38:16 It really doesn’t, especially because I kind of agree with Ahala, I don’t think the tribunes of the plebs have the right to throw the military tribunes with consular power into prison.
Dr G 38:25 No, that would seem unlikely. They could probably maybe suggest it to the people and see what happens,
Dr Rad 38:33 Yeah, sure
Dr G 38:33 And maybe put it to a vote, that might be a possibility.
Dr Rad 38:37 Maybe that’s what they were hinting at. We’re going to start a lengthy bureaucratic process. You just wait and see.
Dr G 38:44 Roll up, roll up. It’s the first round of voting. Or will we put some patricians in jail?
Dr Rad 38:50 That’s really all that happens in 402. That’s it.
Dr G 38:53 Okay. Yeah, all right. Now I do have some details, most of which I think I can’t relate to you right now, because I don’t know where we are in terms of the actual siege itself and the fragmentary details that I do have, I don’t think are currently relevant.
Dr Rad 39:18 Well, I think this is because of the dating issue. So I’m going to give you a bit of a hint, Dr, G because I feel like it’ll be useful for you. So in the next year, in 401 BCE, there is this reference where one of the historical characters we are dealing with, he makes reference to how long the siege, slash, war against Veii has been going on. And it’s wrong. Like, according to, according to what Livy has been building up, it does, like the numbers don’t add up, which is exactly what I said to you and we got into this whole thing. Oh, numbers don’t add up. They’ve added two years because they want to make it a 10 year conflict, so that it’s like the Trojan War. So sometimes these little mistakes creep in, which let us know that the dating is a little off. So I think you’re probably right to be suspicious of where I’m supposedly at and where you’re supposedly at. But yeah, you can see that potentially, the Romans are stringing things out a little bit, and they’ve inserted some time, definitely.
Dr G 40:15 And we’ve known that Rome has this issue with chronology, and it’s had it for a little while now.
Dr Rad 40:21 I have a chronological issue. It can’t be fixed. It’s chronic.
Dr G 40:27 How long has it been happening? A long time.
Dr Rad 40:30 Or has it?
Dr G 40:32 Ehh the questions. So the chronological issue seems most evident in the discrepancy between some of the source material, sure. So Livy thinks we’re in what, 402.
Dr Rad 40:46 Yeah.
Dr G 40:46 And it has been the case that he has been in discrepancy with Diodorus Siculus for years now, about where they’re up to in terms of the timeline, yeah, because Diodorus Siculus is following along pretty methodically. He doesn’t always get everything right, but he is about two to three years ahead of Livy at every turn. So the year he tells us that Aristocrates is the Archon in Athens right is the year 399, to 398, okay? And that’s the same year that he lists six military tribunes, although only names five, he says they’re six, but only names five, and that list matches up almost in its entirety with the list that we get for 402.
Dr Rad 41:34 Gotcha.
Dr G 41:35 So this discrepancy has been around for a little while now, but we don’t know how to resolve it, and the Romans don’t know how to resolve it either. No. And there’s obviously that really attractive 10 year Homeric element to the siege of a which you’ve mentioned before, yeah, as well. So there’s a literary reason for why they want it to be 10 years.
Dr Rad 41:59 Oh, yeah. And look, I always say this also has something to do with, like, family traditions as well, like the Verginii being placed at this moment, as you’ll see when I get into my next year as well. I think you’ll see that, yeah, it all kind of, there’s a reason that it’s all coming together this way. So I’d say he’s relying potentially, on bit of family traditions here.
Dr G 42:20 Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. And so one of the ways that I’ve tried to navigate real absence of source material is looking at Dio Cassius.
Dr Rad 42:31 Okay…
Dr G 42:34 So a small segue. Dio Cassius, dear friends of the podcast, this is a third century CE historian.
Dr Rad 42:45 So, yeah, hang on. Let me think so that means that he’s like, Hang on. Let me think that means that he is about what, 600 years after?
Dr G 42:51 600 years out, yeah. So does he know what he’s talking about? We don’t know. But the trouble for us with Dio Cassius right now, because he does write a history of Rome from the beginning, he does the whole analytic thing, very ambitious, and he goes up to his own time period, which is kind of amazing. And we have good, good chunks of Dio Cassius, but not for this period of the history. We’ve only got fragments, we’ve got little bits that are preserved in later epitomes, right? And we’ve got little bits and pieces that seem to be preserved in a Constantinian source.
Dr Rad 43:25 Right.
Dr G 43:26 So the things that I can tell you about the siege that are in Dio Cassius, I’m going to keep in reserve, because I’m pretty sure they’re going to come up later.
Dr Rad 43:36 I would say so.
Dr G 43:37 And I’m not going to mention them now, but I do want to flag that this is a historian who’s also done some work on this, and we’re not really quite sure entirely about his early sources. Either we’re not certain that he’s reading Livy or basing everything that he’s written about this period from Livy.
Dr Rad 43:53 I was going to ask because obviously Livy would be an obvious source, because he’s earlier.
Dr G 44:00 Exactly, and so chances are he probably had read Livy.
Dr Rad 44:04 Sure.
Dr G 44:04 But it seems like there’s enough differences in his account that he’s as well. He’s using other sources as well. Yeah, some scholars think that he’s using Ennius.
Dr Rad 44:13 Ooh, okay, an early source.
Dr G 44:16 An early source. So ennius is writing in what the second century BCE
Dr Rad 44:20 I think so.
Dr G 44:23 And Ennius writes this big epic, the Annales, which becomes quite famous for the Romans for a really good period of time before it’s overtaken by Virgil’s Aeneid. But that’s also a history and a also interested in the figure of Camillus. So it’s kind of like all of my sources are trying to get me to Camillus, and we’re not there yet.
Dr Rad 44:46 Didn’t even mention him, Dr. G.
Dr G 44:48 So we’re not going to go down that path just yet.
Dr Rad 44:51 No, but He’s coming.
Dr G 44:52 He’s coming.
Dr Rad 44:52 He’s on a horse, and he’s coming.
Dr G 44:55 And then the other thing that I tried to do was, I was like, Look, Veii and Rome have been together unhappily for a while. Now, sure, chances are scholars have looked into this.
Dr Rad 45:05 Yeah, yeah, I would say so.
Dr G 45:07 And then I was like, what would be interesting to know is something from the archeological record?
Dr Rad 45:12 Ooh,
Dr G 45:12 Because we have lots of Etruscan tombs. That’s what is most famously preserved.
Dr Rad 45:17 Absolutely.
Dr G 45:17 But there are other elements of the archeology that still exist, and even though they is very close to Rome, is kind of subsumed into greater Rome these days. There is a lot of excavation work that is happening on the Etruscans in that area, right? So one of the things that I was looking at is a piece by a scholar called Arizza and Rossi.
Dr Rad 45:17 Okay.
Dr G 45:20 And they’re looking at the territory between ve and Rome in the Archaic period.
Dr Rad 45:29 Wow.
Dr G 45:29 So that’s sort of like the sixth century down to the fourth century. So sitting right in the cusp of our zone of interest, actually. And there’s a whole bunch of tombs, which is fine, all very interesting. Some of them are very typically Etruscan. And there’s one in that they’ve been looking at that sort of stands out as being Etruscan in style, but with Roman style grave goods, interesting. So you’ve got this sort of overlapping thing starting to happen in terms of cross cultural fertilization.
Dr Rad 46:20 Would it be worthwhile telling our listeners, what does Etruscan in style mean? Because I think Etruscans have, they do have quite elaborate tombs and like we’re talking about, like rooms, aren’t we like what we might think of as semi mausolem-ish,
Dr G 46:33 Almost like buildings you could live in.
Dr Rad 46:34 Yeah, yeah.
Dr G 46:35 They’re built, sometimes square structures, sometimes circular structures. Depends on the time period, but they do look like little houses, basically. And they’re often inserted a little bit into a hillside where possible, not always, but or going down a little bit. And there is a combination of bodies that have been cremated and bodies that have been inhumed, essentially. So you could have been just buried, or you could have been cremated and put into a little cinerary urn. Yeah, the frescoes inside of these tombs are often an indication of elitism and wealth.
Dr Rad 47:13 Yeah.
Dr G 47:14 Not every tomb is so spectacular, but if you get to see some Etruscan tombs, I would recommend it, but in terms of grave goods, the thing that sort of tipped this example, so this is a tomb that’s sitting between Veii and Rome in this early period is that there was one that contained an aes rude.
Dr Rad 47:36 I have no idea what that is.
Dr G 47:38 Well, an aes rude is like a precursor to currency.
Dr Rad 47:43 Ahhh.
Dr G 47:44 So Rome doesn’t have currency yet. As far as we’re aware, even though it keeps talking about, they keep talking about how much things are, but we’re pretty sure they don’t develop currency just yet.
Dr Rad 47:54 Yeah, I agree.
Dr G 47:55 But they do have what is proto currency, right? And it’s these bronze, unstructured kind of shapes,
Dr Rad 48:04 Ooo like aes! Okay, yeah, okay, gotcha sorry.
Dr G 48:08 That’s just my pronunciation.
Dr Rad 48:09 No, no, no, I’m visualizing it now, and I get where you’re coming from. Yeah,
Dr G 48:12 They’re kind of slightly rectangular, but they’re also, they could kind of be any shape really, but they’re not a coin.
Dr Rad 48:20 Yep.
Dr G 48:20 It’s all done by weight, yes, of course. And so metal content, yeah, you slap down your bronze and you’re like, What about some of this?
Dr Rad 48:28 Yeah, somebody’s still in the Bronze Age, baby.
Dr G 48:32 Like, I’ll give you 10 sacks of grain for it. So there is a trading proto currency happening. One of these is found in one of these Etruscan tombs.
Dr Rad 48:43 Okay, okay.
Dr G 48:44 but they’re thought to be distinctly Roman-Latin in its sort of origin. The other thing that’s happening is that we’ve got defensive locations that they’ve found, yeah, which appear to be on Veii’s side of the Tiber.
Dr Rad 49:01 Ooh, okay.
Dr G 49:02 Yeah, so Rome’s on the south side of the river, Veii’s on the north side. Veii’s already in the more strategic position, if you like, because they could just hop in the river and float down following the current. Rome can’t be happy about this.
Dr Rad 49:17 Row, row, row, your boat.
Dr G 49:19 Yeah, for Rome to go up the river – mission.
Dr Rad 49:22 Yeah.
Dr G 49:22 For Veii, they’re just like, chilling out,
Dr Rad 49:24 yeah,
Dr G 49:25 On their floating device.
Dr Rad 49:26 This is why the Romans are so agitated.
Dr G 49:28 Possibly – a little bit angry. But on this north side of the Tiber, there’s a couple of spots where there’s really clear defensive locations that date from this sort of sixth to fourth century BCE. One of them’s at a place called Colle Santa Agata, which, if you’re in Rome for the Romans listening, is now where the San Filippo Neri Hospital is.
Dr Rad 49:52 Okay.
Dr G 49:53 Must be on the top of a hill.
Dr Rad 49:54 Note to self, yeah.
Dr G 49:56 And another spot called Acquafredda, which is near. The Università Europea di Roma and the so both of these are on hills. They’ve got like a defensive wall, and they’ve also got some rudimentary substructures of drainage, interesting. So there’s ditches and moats and things like, yeah, so using the hill as a bit of it’s like a hill fort situation, yeah.
Dr Rad 50:19 Okay. So basically, the archeology supports this idea that Rome and they were in conflict at around this time.
Dr G 50:28 Definitely that there is a sense in which there’s a defensive policy coming from Veii, and that is presumably in response to the offensive stuff that is coming from Rome.
Dr Rad 50:43 Always thought Rome spews out offensive stuff.
Dr G 50:45 And the other thing that we see in the archeology from this period is that there tends to be a cluster of sort of farms around the edges of the salt flats, which will ultimately become Ostia.
Dr Rad 51:01 Right.
Dr G 51:02 So they is already in control of that area, it would seem.
Dr Rad 51:05 Hoo. No wonder Rome wants to get their hands on it.
Dr G 51:07 Rome is itching.
Dr Rad 51:09 Yeah.
Dr G 51:09 Itching, they’re feeling salty.
Dr Rad 51:11 Think of all those fish you can salt with that.
Dr G 51:15 Exactly, yeah. And so lots of defensive structures in places today, known as Malagrotta and Monte Stallonara,
Dr Rad 51:25 Okay.
Dr G 51:26 Which, again, that’s for the Roman listeners.
Dr Rad 51:28 Yeah, so many of you.
Dr G 51:30 Get out your Maps. Google it.
Dr Rad 51:34 Ciao, Antonio Lara,
Dr G 51:36 So yeah, there is this sense in which Veii is doing a whole bunch of things in this point in time, and over the over those centuries, getting more defensive, and Rome probably becoming more offensive in response, or, you know.
Dr Rad 51:50 Sorry, it’s never gonna stop amusing me that you call Rome so offensive.
Dr G 51:52 So offensive.
Dr Rad 51:53 So offensive.
Dr G 51:57 And I think that’s, that’s my contribution to this episode.
Dr Rad 52:00 That’s an amazing contribution, because archeology is just so not my strong point. And also, you know, knowing where things are in Sydney is challenging enough for me. Rome is a whole other level.
Dr G 52:12 I did have to do some like, specific mapping exercises to try and figure out where things were.
Dr Rad 52:18 Yeah, anybody who knows me knows that I get lost going to places I go literally all the time. So out of the two of us, I’m glad that was you. I was just proud of myself for actually having a map this time. I was going to say that was very impressive. I know, I know. Thank you very much, Guy Bradley, fabulous, fabulous map. Anyway, well, Dr. G, I think that’s probably a good time for us to wrap up. You know what? Turns out, I lied. I think we’re going to need another episode for 401. And therefore it is time for the Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, the Partial Pick is where we assess Rome’s performance and what can they win in return?
Dr G 53:03 Can they get 50 golden eagles? Let’s find out together.
Dr Rad 53:08 Let’s find out. What’s our first category?
Dr G 53:10 Military Clout.
Dr Rad 53:12 Who That’s rough. I feel like it’s a zero.
Dr G 53:15 They lost Anxur.
Dr Rad 53:16 Can we take off points that we given them previously?
Dr G 53:19 I don’t think so. Sadly, that is a horrible way to mark. I refuse to do it. They lose Anxur. That’s a problem.
Dr Rad 53:29 That is a problem.
Dr G 53:29 They don’t support their own troops when they clearly need help, even though somebody didn’t ask for help.
Dr Rad 53:36 Yeah, such a mess. Like step up, such a mess.
Dr G 53:41 We have Romans running away from a siege.
Dr Rad 53:44 Well, I mean, if they didn’t, they were getting, yeah, they were going to get killed. Yeah, it is quite clear that that is what is going to happen.
Dr G 53:52 Yeah, problems, I think zero. I agree.
Dr Rad 53:54 Yeah. Okay, what’s our next category?
Dr G 53:57 Diplomacy.
Dr Rad 54:00 I feel like, no, there’s, there’s just no, there’s not even internal diplomacy, if there is such a thing, that there is not.
Dr G 54:05 There is not.
Dr Rad 54:06 No.
Dr G 54:06 Expansion?
Dr Rad 54:08 Definitely not. They’ve again, gone backwards.
Dr G 54:11 This is awkward.
Dr Rad 54:12 Oh my god, honestly, it does when you, when you do things like this, year by year, like episode by episode, it really makes you realize, how the hell did they ever get an empire?
Dr G 54:22 I mean, I have questions, because we’re zero of three. We’ve only got two categories. Could this be the episode where Rome gets zero?
Dr Rad 54:34 You know what? The only consolation I can give them, if that is where we’re heading, is that it’s probably a made up year anyway, like, Livy’s probably padding the narrative. I mean, like, obviously 402, existed, but whether it existed it, you know, in this way, in this way, that’s the question.
Dr G 54:51 We’ve got questions.
Dr Rad 54:52 We do.
Dr G 54:53 Virtus?
Dr Rad 54:54 Nope, no, again, it’s like the reverse of virtus.
Dr G 54:58 We’ve done a reverse Uno on virtus for this year.
Dr Rad 55:01 Yeah.
Dr G 55:02 And the citizen score?.
Dr Rad 55:05 I feel like it would be not great, I mean…
Dr G 55:07 It can’t have been great, can it? Because, I mean, first of all, you’ve got the Romans who were sick in Anxur, and they get killed just for being there.
Dr Rad 55:14 And they’ve only been there for, I actually checked it was 406, that they took Anxur, so they’ve been there for a few years, that’s it.
Dr G 55:21 Okay.
Dr Rad 55:21 Yeah, and that’s if the chronology is right, it might be, like, it might be the very next year that this happened. Who knows?
Dr G 55:27 So they’ve been sick for four years, yeah?
Dr Rad 55:31 Well, that’s why I said to you, when you were like, are they injured? I’m like, I don’t think so. It’s been a few years now.
Dr G 55:36 But okay, so there’s Romans living in Anxur at this point in time, and some of them are unwell. They don’t make it out, and they get killed.
Dr Rad 55:42 Yeah.
Dr G 55:42 All right, so that’s not great. That’s not great for citizens. And then you’ve got what I feel like has been overlooked in this patrician back and forth, ambitious, I’m I’m so good, blah, blah, blah, if he doesn’t ask for help, I’m not helping him.
Dr Rad 55:58 Yeah.
Dr G 55:58 Well, it’s plebeians out there getting killed on the battlefield.
Dr Rad 56:01 Absolutely, yeah, so I think it’s zero.
Dr G 56:01 {coughing}
Dr Rad 56:06 You’re choking, choking in your glee, my goodness. Well, there you go. It’s possible that the greatest civilization so great that men think about it every day, multiple times a day, got zero for being a total loser in 402 BCE
Dr G 56:32 Oh, well, that takes the cake.
Dr Rad 56:35 Look, I think that again, I’m gonna silver lining this situation. If this teaches us nothing else. It’s that there is a point to taking off your shoes at the airport. That’s all I take away from this.
Dr G 56:46 Yeah, well someone has to uphold security.
Dr Rad 56:48 Oh, and then, okay, wait, wait, here we go. After school special, here it goes. You need to learn to ask for help when you need it. Dr, G.
Dr G 56:56 Ooo, it’s not a sign of weakness.
Dr Rad 57:01 It is not a sign of weakness, although, in this particular case, militarily, I guess it kind of was, but, well, no, I mean, I mean, like, as in, you know, Rome wasn’t doing so hot, but they had reinforcements there. So, like, they weren’t, like, permanently weak, but yeah, certainly in terms of individuals, you know, got to step up and acknowledge I need help.
Dr G 57:23 Well, and look, and all I can say is, I hope it gets better from here, because this is a real low point for Rome.
Dr Rad 57:29 You know, look, I feel like there must have been probably another year where this happened, but I can’t think of it off top of my head. So I’m gonna go and have to check
Dr G 57:36 I was gonna say I don’t recall. But, you know, we’ve done so many episodes now that may be bound to maybe my memory is on the fritz as well.
Dr Rad 57:43 Yeah, I feel like it’s bound to happen at some point. But, yeah, it’s been a long time since we’ve had an actual zero across the board. Oh Rome.
Dr G 57:50 Goodness me.
Dr Rad 57:52 Thank god I know that 401 has some stuff in it, or this would be a very depressing All right. Dr, G, lovely. Chatting to you as always.
Dr G 58:02 Yes, a pleasure. Until next time.
Dr Rad 58:04 Can I ask? Can you help me to pack up this podcasting equip?
Dr G 58:10 I certainly can.
Dr Rad 58:11 Thank you.
Dr G 58:14 Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. On behalf of Dr Rad and myself, we want to say a huge, huge thank you to all of you for enjoying Ancient Rome with us, and a special thank you to our Patreon supporters for loving the show and enabling us to do amazing things like upgrade our audio equipment. So thank you so so much and have a great day.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode - Ovid's Metamorphoses with Professor Stephanie McCarter
Jun 06, 2024
It is not often that we get to say that there is a new translation of a classical text that has taken the world by storm. But that was exactly what happened when Professor Stephanie McCarter released her 2022 translation of Ovid’s Metamorphoses. We were honoured that Professor McCarter agreed to talk to us about the mysterious Ovid and her process of translation.
Stephanie McCarter is currently a Professor of Classics at the University of the South in Sewanee, Tennessee. She published a monograph entitled Horace between Freedom and Slavery: The First Book of Epistles in 2015 and a translation of Horace’s Epodes, Odes and Carmen Saeculare in 2020.
We would like to warn our listeners that this episode will touch on instances of violence and sexual assault. This is not one to listen to with the kids in the car.
Special Episode – Ovid’s Metamorphoses with Professor Stephanie McCarter
Who was Ovid?
Ovid is one of our favourite Latin poets over at the Partial Historians. This is partially due to his work, which can be touching but also highly comedic. However, it is also because Ovid himself is hard to figure out.
He lived and worked during the reign of Augustus but claimed to have been exiled in approximately 8 CE. Academics are still trying to figure out what Ovid did that was so terrible… or whether he was making it up entirely!
Whatever he was up to, Ovid’s back catalogue is pretty impressive. He composed the Amores, the Heroides, the Fasti, the Ars amatoria, and his masterpiece, the Metamorphoses.
Translating Ovid for the 21st Century
Translation is an immensely difficult and often underappreciated task. We don’t mean getting out your dictionary and figuring out a passage here and there. We delve into the technique of translating an entire work, trying to make it accessible and enjoyable for a new generation, whilst staying true to the voice of the original author. Whew! What an undertaking.
Professor McCarter’s translation of the Metamorphoses is the first English translation of the work by a woman in many decades and it seems to have struck a nerve. There are many episodes of sexual violence in this work that have been softened or glossed over in previous translations. McCarter’s work aims to be more accurate and direct in the language, not shying away from the troubling aspects of these myths. This has allowed themes to emerge more clearly from text.
It was a delight to talk to someone as passionate and dedicated to their work as Professor McCarter. Her work highlights the way that translations often reflect the values of their creator and their context, hence the need for fresh interpretations.
The uterus and double helix cleverly woven into the mind-blowing cover art for McCarter’s book by Aiko Tezuka
Professor McCarter makes reference to concordances as part of her process. These are essentially word indexes – very handy tools for translators!
Exciting news about McCarter’s next projects!
Sound Credits
Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Automated Transcript
Generated by Otter AI.
Dr Rad 00:15
Welcome to the partial historians,
Dr G 00:18
we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 00:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And
Dr G 00:33
I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 00:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of this city. Hello, and welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,
Dr G 01:06
and I’m Dr. G.
Dr Rad 01:09
Now, Dr. G, you know that I break out in a cold sweat at the thought of translating anything. It’s
Dr G 01:16
true. I think I do as well at this point, I feel Yeah. So I’m
Dr Rad 01:20
super excited to have an expert in translation on our show. Today, we are going to be chatting to Stephanie McCarter, who is currently a Professor of Classics at the University of the South in Sewanee, Tennessee. She published a monograph entitled horrors between freedom and slavery, the first book of epistles in 2015, and a translation of Horace’s oppose, owed and calm and secular era in 2020. However, she has recently been spending more time with a man named of it, her 2022 translation of his Metamorphoses has received much acclaim, and this is what we will be focusing on today. However, before we start, we would like to warn our listeners that this episode will touch on instances of violence and sexual assault. Welcome, Stephanie
Stephanie McCarter 02:25
Thank you so much. This is this is a great treat. I’m super excited to be on this particular podcast because I spend so much time in Australia, my husband’s and Aussie. So I sometimes try to my kids are all these. So this is exciting. It
Dr Rad 02:42
is very exciting for us to have you on the show and to talk about this particular translation. But before we get into the actual translating stuff, just so I can, you know, ease myself into it, not have too many nightmares. Let’s start with a brief biography of of it, who is this guy? Well,
Stephanie McCarter 03:01
he is who he we think if he was who he would like us to believe he is. So most of what we know from him comes from his own poetry, we know very little about him outside of that. And you know, part of constructing his biography means picking and choosing the bits you want to believe, right. But we in terms of who he is, we know he was the last of the major Agustin poets, who were living in writing during the rise and reign of Augustus, along with Virgil and then Horace I tend to think of Virgil, Horace and Ovid is the big three. We need to be really careful with what he tells us because most of it comes from one poem, trusty 410, which he writes when he’s in exile, and he’s clearly trying to frame himself in a particular kind of quasi heroic light. So it’s hard to know what’s poetic fiction and what is fact. He was born in Salmo Italy in 43 BCE, but a year after the assassination of Julius Caesar almost to the day, March 20. Caesar, of course, famously killed on the Ides of March. And so he was about 12 or so when I guess this came to power. So when he really came of age during guesses rise, and then he died about a year after Augustus. So his life really straddles this period of Rome’s own metamorphosis, right from a Republic into an empire. And so I think that might be one reason he’s interested in the idea of transformation because one of the things he brings out in the metamorphosis is how states transform. So I think some of this is tied into his own experience in Rome. Um, his family was equestrian so that he was not from a super elite family, but certainly wealthy enough to send him to be educated in Rome along with his brother, who died when he was young. He clearly He received a stellar oratorical education which he put to great use in the poem. But he ultimately decided not to embark on a career as a politician or an order, and he decided that poetry was where he wanted to proceed instead, we know that he married according to what he told us three times, the last marriage lasted for many years, he had a daughter and he was a grandpa to which we don’t really think of all of it as you know, a grandpa. But he tells us that he was. And perhaps the biggest event in his life was his exile. This is the one that we are spilling a lot of ink over. He was exiled probably the same year that Metamorphoses was published the year eight, he tells us that he was exiled because of a carmen et error, or a poem and a mistake. Most people would agree the poem was the Ars amatoria. Cause you could very easily if you wanted to argue that that’s a manual for picking up married women and adultery was a crime under Augustus. But he wasn’t exiled until eight years later. So the mistake is probably what really got him exiled. Nobody knows what that was. We know he saw something. I don’t speculate because I think that’s playing of its game. He wants us to speculate and he’s never gonna tell us and He wants us to keep talking about this for 2000 years. And he wrote many poems in exile wanting to be recalled to Rome wasn’t and so died, still in exile in Thomas on the Black Sea. So that’s a very quick overview of his of his life.
Dr Rad 06:40
I would just like to highlight for our listeners that it is Augustus Yes. Augustus who is responsible for keeping this poetic genius and
Stephanie McCarter 06:52
some people think it has It has been speculated that maybe he’s making the entire thing up. Oh, scandal. I actually I’m quite drawn to I don’t think that’s necessarily true, but I like the idea that maybe he’s just, yeah, this is a persona. I don’t we don’t really think he was a pickup artist, do we? Even though he purports to be in the mores and ours on materia so it’s the kind of funny thought that maybe we’ve been speculating for about something that he just just saw.
Dr Rad 07:21
The biggest prank? Yeah, I do. I do enjoy visiting him as like a creepy grandpa type of guy, the one that tells all the inappropriate jokes, and it’s like, hugely embarrassing.
Dr G 07:33
Absolutely, that would be for sure. Don’t invite him to family lunch, just in case. So the metamorphoses is a hugely influential text through time, and partly because it’s so mythologically based tales of the gods tales of mortals. These are the stories that really draw people in to the ancient world in many cases for the first time. But it’s more than that. And I’m interested in your view about what is the metamorphoses about and you kind of touched on that idea of the transformation of Rome itself? And I’m wondering if there’s other ways into the text that are like that, or build from there as well?
Stephanie McCarter 08:12
This is such a difficult question to even start to ponder, because I begin to think, what is it not about? Right? It’s, you know, it is about everything from the creation of the universe to have its own day, this is what he tells us the various transformations that have happened throughout all time, right? And so transformation brings us does is it simple, you know, it’s sort of most straightforward theme. He tells us in the opening line, he’s going to talk about shapes changed, right? New Task formats, that’s metamorphosis. But it’s about so much more like what changes forms, right? That’s the big question. It’s time. So it’s about time and its movement, power changes, forms, frequently in this poem, and also, so much of it just focused around the body, right? This the probably the most important word, and the opening poem is corpora, which is bodies, its shapes transformed into new bodies. And so you think that’s weird, because it should be body’s changed into new shapes? And so, you know, he invites you to ponder, you know, what is a body? What does that mean? So this is why you can kind of think of the universe is a body, the state is a body. And then, of course, we as humans having bodies that are really subject to change and transformation. So it’s about you know, what does it mean to have a human body? What does it mean to exist in a world that it changes the language of the body? And, and then it also invites us to think about identity. So it’s about that what is the relationship between a body and the identity that inhabits it? Right when the shape is changed into a new body? What happens to the being that inhabited the body to begin with? Is it lost? Okay? So yeah, it’s about so many different things. It’s about gender, right? There’s and and the way that that might relate to a body, you have so many characters in this epic who transform in terms of gender, and you have a big focus on female characters as well. And so how does an epic itself transform? When you shift the focus on to women? Right, this is I think, something that Ovid is really interested in, you know, so many of the epics that we think of the need the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Odyssey opens with the word man, right? It is a male focused genre for sure. And so just by changing that, that focus, he transforms the genre in so many interesting ways. So I could go on forever about what the metamorphosis piece has been about. But I think maybe what it’s fundamentally about is how the force of change and transformation then connects us in so many ways, right? How all these things are connected, and you can’t stop change. And that’s actually a pretty good thing.
Dr G 11:05
It does mean that there’s a sense that the text resonates continuously through time, because change is the one thing that we always are feeling and understanding. And even though we might resist change, there’s a real compulsion to try and understand it better. And I think of it has done something supremely clever by tapping into this as that thematic focus.
Stephanie McCarter 11:27
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, it means he can he can be changed to write his texts can be changed and transformed through translation through art through adaptation in ways that will make him stay relevant always. It
Dr Rad 11:44
is kind of ironic, isn’t it? That change is a constant in all of our lives. How important would you say this text was in his own time? And then in subsequent centuries?
Stephanie McCarter 11:58
Oh, goodness, I mean, from the very beginning, it was, it was important. I mean, he you can’t have any of the epics that follow in the wake of it without this text. You know, one of my favourite epics is Statius is the by it, I absolutely love it. But it wouldn’t exist without all of it, and Virgil. And so he’s sort of folding both of those epics into the by it, you see its influence in art pretty immediately because of I mean, the frescoes you see in Pompeii that are clearly based on all of its metamorphosis, not just in Pompeii, you see this across the ancient world. And then of course, in our own time, and we, you know, in the English speaking world, he has resonated across the centuries. I mean, you have Shakespeare’s most famous play arguably is Romeo and Juliet, you wouldn’t have that without of its pyramids and Thursby you wouldn’t have huge chunks of Midsummer Night’s Dream without pyramids and Thursby as well. You know, I’m thinking of in terms of art, famously, art of it has inspired more art than any text apart from the Bible, and continues to one of my favourite painters working right now is a woman named Elizabeth colomba, who very often works with Ovidian material. She has a fabulous painting of Daphne that’s responding powerfully to Bernini’s Daphne and Apollo sculpture. So I mean, in some ways, because of it is so malleable, we can use him as something of a mirror in which we can see our own literary and artistic tastes change and react to what went before. So we’ve been using him for so long, I’m thinking also of, you know, his influence on you know, operat his influence on the stage in general, his influence on so many rewritings of myth that are coming out right now, I mean, you wouldn’t have Madeline Miller’s Circe, without all of its Circe, for example, you know, Mary Zimmerman’s play the metamorphoses I’m reading right now another new play at Polaroid stories by Naomi Iizuka. I’m sure, I may not be pronouncing her name correctly, but you know, there’s so many wonderful theatrical productions of all of it. Yeah, he’s everywhere. He’s absolutely everywhere.
Dr Rad 14:24
It sounds good that we’re talking about it, then if it’s such a crucial text from the ancient world, I think this is
Dr G 14:29
the sort of thing as well, well, this is like a small anecdote, but I was out yesterday with some friends from a broader circle of people. And they were kind of like, well, what are you doing tomorrow? And I was like, oh, you know, I’m going to interview this wonderful academic about Ovid’s Metamorphoses. And they’re like, what’s that? And I was like, You will be surprised about how much you have already engaged with his text through one of the variations and adaptations that have happened over time. And I was like, I went straight to Shakespeare and I was like, Look, and then we move out from I’m there. And I want to, first of all just stand in all of you for a moment, because translation is a gargantuan task. And I think the further we go through time, the more history we have of translation and engagement with ancient texts as well. So every scholar of each new generation who engages in translation kind of has this whole history of what has come before, in order to encounter all of that before they get to their own translation, and how they’re going to position things. And not even all academics get the chance to really engage in in depth translation work. So I’m wondering if you can walk us a little bit through your process as a translator? Oh,
Stephanie McCarter 15:41
goodness, this is, it’s a little tricky to explain. I love my new shop. I love working in minutiae. I’ve always liked that. And I always was drawn to poetry. And so even from the time I was in high school, I loved poetry as a sort of secret poetry nerd. And I had to leave a lot of the English poetry I really liked behind when I chose classics over English literature. And so I guess about in the summer of 2016, I just sat down and started translating, but I had no process, I had no idea what I was doing. Really, what it took for me was to figure out that I wanted to write formal poetry in translation. And that became a real guide and friend, to me, because like a lot of classes, I was not terribly good at literary translation, we tend to be trained to do a hyper literal kind of translation, that doesn’t sound so great to somebody who’s reading the text for its literary quality. So it just, it took me a long time to work out any kind of process at all. With this particular translation I translated it’s in iambic pentameter, I made it my full time job, I actually lived in Australia for most of the time, I was translating the initial draft of this, we were in Brisbane for the year. And, you know, woke up every day nine to five translating into iambic pentameter, so much that I started thinking. And then I, it took me several years to get the draft complete. A lot of that was due to COVID. And having two small kids. And then I one thing I always do, once I have a translation, as I always teach it, because I want to see how it goes with my students and how they react to it, where things are not working for them. And so I taught it. In a class, I was teaching on women’s adaptation of Ovid, and they gave me great feedback. And then I spent months revising, and revising and revising and revising. But yeah, it’s very mature. It’s a meticulous process. So I’m sitting down with, I don’t feel like translation for me is like a process of being inspired or anything like that. I’m using commentaries, I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about how I love concordances. I don’t know if you know what concordance is, are, but they’re the most boring possible, but so good. It’s wonderful. Like, it’s like every time, you know, an ancient author. So I was talking about my Horace concordance, and how much I loved it. But you know, you can Look up every time he uses the word good. Yeah. It’ll tell you everywhere. So when it’s really old fashioned kind of tools, like commentaries, dictionaries, concordances, spreading them all around and turning yourself into a bit of a, you know, maniac for buy, but I
Dr G 18:41
kind of love this. There’s like the word nerd comes out, like, yeah, Look at this, and then it appeared here, and then it didn’t appear for another 50 years, like what’s going on? It must be special.
Stephanie McCarter 18:53
What? That’s true. And so then how do you translate that word? That is a weird word that Ovid only uses? Once right? Then you have to reach for a weird word in English that that works there. So you know, just getting yourself into that space where you’re kind of inhabiting lots of different roles at once it strangely so you’re a scholar, right? You’re using really scholarly tools where you’ve, you know, you’re using your tools for literary criticism, so you’re having to interpret the poem, always. And then you’re also having to be an artist where you are trying to transform that into workable English literature. So it’s a strange thing to try to do. But it’s, I mean, it’s I it’s, it’s a pleasurable thing. So I won’t stop translating anytime they kind
Dr G 19:43
of love this as well, the idea of translation as another metamorphosis as well. I’m just going to put that out there. So are there particular translations that you that you that resonated for you when you were approaching your own translation?
Stephanie McCarter 19:56
Well, I think that I knew several of the translations pretty well. I mean, I’ve taught avid so many times over the years. And yeah, so I wouldn’t say that I was committed to any translation I knew them. And because I had taught out of them so much I knew where the limitations of each one was, in the classes that I was teaching him in. It was mainly, I teach a course on women and gender in the ancient world. And then I teach another course on sexuality in the ancient world, so two separate courses. And then I also teach of it in like a Latin seminar where we are dissecting the Latin together very slowly. And so in the Women and Gender and Sexuality courses, I wasn’t able to find translations that dealt with the aspects of sexual violence and what was going on in terms of gender in the body. I needed translations that brought those issues to the fore, and I just wasn’t finding them. And then on the other hand, in my Latin seminars, I just wasn’t finding translations that did poetically, what I needed them to do in order to teach the students who were dissecting the Latin and finding ways for them to see that reflected in the translations we were also looking at. So that meant that my goals became twofold. I really wanted to use a poetic translation. So this is, you know, formal poetry. It’s iambic pentameter. I wanted it to be really success, like accessible rather, I, I tend to like poetry that is really accessible. And so my favourite poet is Philip Larkin. And he’s, so straightaway, he’s so accessible. And so much of the power of his poetry comes from its seeming simplicity of language. But then when you dig in, and you see how he’s handling, metre, and alliteration, and all of these wonderful things, you can see it’s artistry. And so it is, I think it’s, it works, because it is so seemingly simple, but really artistically refined. And so I wanted to try to make something highly readable. But when you dug in, you can actually see the cool poetic stuff that Ovid is also doing. So you know, it’s not hard to read, I don’t think my translation I wanted to make something that you could read rather quickly, but then you can go in and it’s okay, there’s all this alliteration. Here’s this enjambment. She’s working with this Juras in the meeting, the line kind of like all of it is doing here’s the reversal of this metrical foot that mimics what Ovid is doing. So that was one goal. So it’s poetic readable. On the other hand, I want it to be really straightforward with with the sexual violence, and we’ve nothing ambiguous because it’s not ambiguous in the Latin. And so I think a lot of that was me, being motivated through the feminist lens through which I had taught all of it for so long, and not wanting to know why I don’t think that a lot of the previous translators were actively wanting to euphemized it, they just didn’t have that goal. Right. It wasn’t a goal that they had set out for themselves. And so they ended up you for maizing it for whatever reasons.
Dr Rad 23:09
Yeah, this is probably a great opportunity for us to delve in a little deeper and allow you to give us an example or two of how your new translation does allow for a more nuanced understanding of the meaning suggested by the Latin. So can you tell us a little bit about like one or two instances where you were, you know, meeting those goals about dealing with the sexual violence, you know, in a way that was probably needed in this sort of day and age, I suppose. Sure.
Stephanie McCarter 23:37
I mean, there are various ways in which this comes comes out, I think in the translation. First of all, I should say that it’s an important thing Ovid wants us to wrestle with, right? I mean, he’s really interested in the way power exerts itself on the body and causes it to transform. And I think he recognises that for for a lot of people. Rape is a transformative force that exerts itself on the body, and so it’s part of the theme, and so you can’t hide it. You shouldn’t hide it, you shouldn’t euphemized it, a lot of this is just in the link in the language he uses for rape. So, the basic word the Ovid uses to indicate rape is the Latin word for force, which is vis, V I S. and um this is a legal charge you could bring against somebody, and he uses two formulations of this one is to experience force that is, we would say, to be raped. The other word he uses is to inflict force, so when in theory, and that would be to rape they so there’s no word in Latin that we can translate literally as to rape. I mean, this means only that and the way that the English word does, but his words are very clear he is clear Latin legal terms that would matter. add on to our word, or to rape and to be raped. So here’s an example of that. This comes in Book Three. This is the mother of Narcissus. Her name is Liriope. She’s a nymph. And obviously, he uses this formulation he at the river god Cessiphus inflicts force on her. So this is what we’re, we’re talking about, he raped her. I wanted to keep language of force in there because for me, it’s really important to connect these things with other moments when Ovid discusses vis are force because it’s not just rape, it’s it’s throughout the epic and it’s just rape is one type of force that the Ovid designates with this term. They’re all transformative. Right? So my translation says, kiss thesis once had trapped her there eIope in his curved stream and raped her forcibly is current snaring her. So I tried to use language so he raped her forcibly that’s how I translated like he inflicted force. But also words that would suggest that this wasn’t an embrace, right? He snake he ensnared her, he trapped her the word one word the Ovid uses in the Latin there is he wears it here implicavit, which means like, he entangled her right and, and then we have Yeah, vim tulit. So it is a very clear indication that he raped her. Some translations do this fine. David Rayburn, for example. He writes that the Cessiphus the river god caught her in the folds of His sinless stream, and then proceeded to rape. So it’s clear right? Then you get other translators who are less less clear. So for example, we have Mandelbaum who says that within his waves he snared the Azure nymphs and had his way his way you’re getting into very you can mystic territory with Yeah, then you get the one that is the most common way to translate a Ovidian rape and Humphries demonstrates this. This is Ralph embraces 1955. TRANSLATION were total denial of the river, the Liriope, whom the river guide Cessiphus embraced and ravished right in his and his watery dwelling, and you just get so many translations like that. So it’s not about trapping, it’s about embracing, and then ravishing, no longer means to re write when you can Look at the covers of a million romance book, not romance books, and they’re gonna have the word ravish. in them. There’s one I always show my students it’s called ravish me completely or something like that you the in that way anymore. So to me, it just it becomes a comfortable way that translators can translate the language of rape without actually having to say, right, yeah,
Dr Rad 28:08
it’s funny you say that because as soon as you said ravish, immediately, my mind went to a romance novel cover.
Stephanie McCarter 28:15
Absolutely. One thing I do all the time when I’m translating, I mean, all the time, several times a day is when I want to figure out what the nuances are of the words that I’m choosing. I’ll go to Google Images and I’ll type them in just to see what pops up. So if I want to avoid like language, that’s too feminised thing or something for a character who’s not in it’s not in the Latin feminising language, I’ll go type it in just to make sure. And so that brings me to a second way that I have tried to do things differently in my translation. And that is to avoid like gendering language when it’s not present in the, in the Latin. So let me see if I can find an example of this. There’s a couple of ways this happened. One is in the figure of Callisto, who you may know is a is a virginal Huntress who models herself on Diana and Diana is famously gender non conforming, right. And so Callisto also is gender non conforming in so many different ways. Not only is she taking part in masculine pursuits like hunting, she’s also refusing to get married and have children she wants to say, a virgin forever so often describes her as as having messy hair. The Latin word is words are neglect toasts copy loose, so her neglected hair is really what this means. And the word copy loose with the word capillary from this, it has no gender connotation. She’s just got neglected hair. So I translated this as messy hair. And I did a Google image search and I got lots of masculine presenting people and feminine in presenting people and I was like, okay, that works. When you Look at other translators, we have things like here’s David Rayburn that she has loose, flowing tresses, right?
Dr G 30:12
Yes, men never dresses do they
Stephanie McCarter 30:16
never do. So if you go into Google Images and you type in loose flowing dresses, you’re gonna get so many super feminine presenting hairstyles, right? So I was just being very careful with things like that. The way translate the body. What is this character wearing? If it’s a female character R is her clothing. gender specific. Usually it’s not so trying to avoid that it’s very important for a character like Callisto. Right? Who doesn’t embrace her femininity at all. She has no femininity to embrace. The other thing is little additions sometimes that translators will make. This is one I’ve talked about quite a lot. So Daphne’s very similar to Callisto. She’s a virginal Huntress. She wants to spend her time in the woods, and she actively rejects things that are associated with femininity, and Apollo attempts to rape her. Prior to this. He’s looking at her body. And when he’s looking at her, Ovid doesn’t give her body any adjectives that would be feminising at all. He’s just looking at her, her eyes and tells us that they gleaned it. They’re kind of bright like stars. He mentions her lips, fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, so I didn’t give them any adjectives. So I translated that as he sees her eyes gleaming like stars, her lips but those it’s not enough to kiss to see. he marvelled at her fingers, her hands, her arms, her shoulders nearly bear the parts he cannot see he thinks are better. Other translators will add little things to end to feminise her. So for example, Ella Mandelbaum says that she has fingers hands and wrists that are unsurpassed. So he throws in an extra body part and gives it an adjective. David Weyburn says that he has that she has teasingly tempting lips, delicate fingers, shapely arms. And so it’s just little things like that. That really does, they do make a huge difference. So it was not just the scenes involving the language of sexual violence, but also the way the bodies are described and the way that gender and sexualities are presented. I’ve
Dr Rad 32:36
just seen or the amount of effort that goes into this translation Sorry, I’m just like gobsmacked, I always suspected that this is what it was like. Hearing you talk about it, I won’t even tell you how
Stephanie McCarter 32:46
many times translators mentioned breasts that are not there.
Dr G 32:51
I guess the temptation is real for some but so I think this is all really, really interesting, because it’s allowing a way into the Latin through translation that maybe has not been available up until now. And part of this way of thinking about gender, I think, is also like, what sort of consciousness and experiences and ideas are translators bringing to the work that they do. And to segue slightly, you’re the first woman to translate Ovid metamorphoses into English first in many, many years, there was Mary ins translation, which goes back to 1955. And more broadly speaking, how do you think your own perception and that you bring as a human being to translation? How do you think that has factored into the way you’ve approached this?
Stephanie McCarter 33:47
I think so much of this is to do with the fact that I teach young people who won’t let me get away with anything else. I really think that that is what so much of it has boiled down to. There are, there are, there are women who translate who translate ancient texts all the time and replicate exactly some of these same things. So I don’t and this is something Emily Wilson has talked about, as well. I think that one of the interviews she gave, I was just reading where she talks about, you know, she didn’t arrive at her interpretations of these texts via the superpower of being a girl right?
Dr G 34:28
What No.
Stephanie McCarter 34:30
Women can women can replicate these these things as well. However, I think that for me, my own experiences, inhabiting my body and my identity as a woman, I think they have played in to my experience of the world that has led me to, to, to try to read and translate all that with a particular set of goals. Right. And so I just laid out clearly from the very beginning what my goals were. But so much of these goals have been formed by teaching young women, men, and I see what they go through in this world. And, and so there has been a real feeling of responsibility toward them. And so not just toward myself, but toward the young women who have had to live in a world that sees their bodies in certain ways that insists on seeing their bodies in certain ways that frames their experiences of coercion in certain ways. And, you know, I’ve been teaching women and men for, you know, it’s awanee, for almost 16 years now, before that for a long time. And my motivations, were pretty much for my students and wanting to give them a text, no matter their gender, that would help them think more clearly about, you know, what is the relationship between their identities and their bodies? Like? What did you know? How can they see reflections in this text of what they’re going through in this world, and I just felt they needed the tools to do that. And a really good, accurate translation that tried to capture those nuances was something I felt I could give to the young people who are going to be reading this epic, I hope for a long time to come.
Dr Rad 36:24
I think that’s a really interesting thing. I think one of the things I like so much about your translation and reading about your translation is that you’re not trying to hide your goals, as you say, you know, they’re very much at the forefront. And I think I mean, personally, I believe that it’s really hard for historians, Classicist translators to be completely objective when they’re doing anything. And so I think being transparent about what it is you’re trying to do with your work is important, because if you’re not, it might lead people to maybe think that, you know, that you’re maybe straying into the territory of say, inaccuracy, or something like that. But when you’re when you’re clear about, Look, this is what I’m trying to do. You know, I mean, they’re you given some really great examples of where people you feel are being inaccurate to the Latin. But if you think about their context, it’s probably their context that is leading them to make those choices, isn’t it? Absolutely.
Stephanie McCarter 37:17
I mean, this is why I have felt fairly confident in calling it a feminist translation. Because I think that feminism has actually given me a modes and strategies through which to produce a more accurate translation. And I think that that inverts people’s expectations in some way, we tend to think that a feminist translator is going to alter the text. But I think and again, this is something that Emily Wilson has also talked about, that a translator who is more kind of ideologically motivated, might better be better empowered to scrutinise their own biases in a way that a translator who automatically assumes that they, that they have no biases won’t. Right. And, and I think that the to think of translation as ever being something we can do, completely, objectively is, is the kind of dangerous thing to do, right? We always need to recognise that any kind of interpretive framework is going to be shaped by culture, or whatever, we’re gonna be able to exist outside of our culture and what we’ve, what we’ve learned, I think that what we should do is become not only good critics of ancient literary texts, but also good critics of our own culture, so that we can be aware of how we’re being shaped by it. Oh,
Dr Rad 38:44
and you’re juggling so many things when you’re doing your translation that you’re not necessarily doing when you’re say, writing a history, which is not only being conscious of your own potential biases, but also the fact that you’re juggling, as you said earlier, that artistic angle as well, you know, trying to translate that and it’s a totally different language, you know, it’s, yeah, it’s just so many things you have to keep in so many balls in the air. That’s
Stephanie McCarter 39:10
where the pleasure comes from. For me, it is the artistic process of translation, you know, so much. So much of my motive for doing this is, you know, to think about the themes of the gender and sexual violence and all of this, but on a day to day basis, I was wrestling with iambic pentamer.
Dr G 39:28
Like how am I gonna make this line work?
Stephanie McCarter 39:33
Why does it have to use this strange parenthesis here that sentence apart? You know, it’s like you’re
Dr G 39:38
ruining it for me over it’s stuff that I think there’s sort of like the technical elements of like playing with language because obviously, the way that Latin flows in its cadence is completely different from the way English operates. So the task is, is math to sort of go from the epic metre that of it is using one language to the kind of metre that works in English that is well established that people think of as naturally poetic and also mimicking natural a speech to a certain extent. Thinking about the modern reader of it, because I remember approaching of it for the first time in translation, and not being particularly enamoured of the text. And and I think so translation has a huge, influential role in the way that people get into texts like this. And for me, personally, the little historian inside me, I love the fastI because so it’s packed with so much detail for the sorts of things I’m interested in, which means I haven’t spent as much time with the metamorphoses. So what can modern readers gain from engaging with Ovid’s Metamorphoses? Well, I think
Stephanie McCarter 40:49
for for any of his text, but especially the metamorphoses, I mean, the primary thing is going to be pleasure, right? He’s a masterful storyteller. And probably, to my mind, some of his stories are the most delightful stories from the Roman world and the Greek world, you will read. And he’s clever, right? His wordplay is something that drove me completely bonkers trying to reproduce, that’s again, part of the pleasure. So so much of it is just going to be the sheer pleasure. We love stories, we love old stories we love. We love seeing that the playfulness with which all of it tells them and in those strange, inventive ways with which he connects them. So just the sheer joy of reading that. But I think probably more than in any other ancient work, we can think with all of it. I think he, he also, he challenges us continually across the ages, because they’re always going to appeal no matter what the age is, that’s reading them to the sense of abilities of that age, because he is so malleable. And so I think for some of my students, it’s so shocking, that they will read this ancient text and you know, he has transgender characters, right? He has characters who are non binary, I mean, so explicitly, so if an incident can see that we haven’t just invented certain concerns, right, that these have been here, we’ve been thinking about these things for so long. And so I think for a reader coming to this text, just you’ll be blown away by the fact that we have the word we are still in our most current discourse, part of a conversation that’s been going on for 1000s of years. And I think you can really see that with all of it pretty much more than with anybody, because I mean, in some ways, Ovid is so interested in exploring the experiences of characters who aren’t going to be the centre, right in other stories. So the other epics that we have in the ancient world, as I was saying, they have, you know, a male protagonist at the very centre, they have a clear goal. Oh, it isn’t interested in any of that. There’s no protagonist in this story. There’s no clear goal. And the most interesting characters are women. And so he’s going to constantly be saying, well, what if we don’t turn the lens on and do this, but we turn the lens on the people, the women around him, right, and we see the story through their eyes. So we see this in the Heroides, right, which is a series of letters that are written by mythological women who are often very victimised by these male heroes. And so from the very beginning of his poetic output, he’s interested in in thinking, Well, what if we told this story through this side character’s point of view. And so I think he’s very good. As a storyteller of reminding us that there are more than one ways to tell every story, there’s so many ways you can tell the same story and every single character involved in any event is going to have their own version. So he helps us to resist the idea of the singular authoritative tale. And so that’s so fun to think with he, he leaves open so many alternatives. And so I think this is one great reason we returned to him again and again, because we are doing the very sorts of rethinking reframing that he himself has modelled for us. You know, so one carrot. One reason I love Elizabeth Columba’swork so much. She’s the painter that I mentioned before, is that she is taking off his stories, and in completely reframing them, I think, in a way that he would love right? So he gives us a death or he No, He gives us a Daphne who has been shot by Cupid’s arrow. Well, Elizabeth colomba has her standing there with Cupid’s arrow. And so anybody who’s listening to this, just go do a Google Image Search for Elizabeth colomba has Daphne. And so I think that he has he models how to be playful with stories and how to, you know, to see ourselves as as part of an ongoing dialogue in ways that no other ancient author to my mind quite does.
Dr Rad 45:12
You’ve definitely inspired me to spend the rest of the day perusing his work. Okay. So let me I have to finish off with another little peek behind the curtain in terms of this new translation. Because one of the things that struck me straight away when I first saw it was the cover art and the way that the text was formatted and that sort of thing. It just made me curious about how much input you actually had as to translate it into the publication and the formatting that went into this work and how you think the layout might affect the way that people engage with it. Sure,
Stephanie McCarter 45:47
I want to talk can I talk about the cover for a moment because I love I love I love the cover so much. I wish I were the person who would come up with the cover, but I am not. However, when I thought I was gleeful. What I told them was I didn’t want an image of a woman being victimised on the cover. That was really important to me. Because again, it’s how do we frame these stories becomes so important and so I wanted a way to frame it around women’s agency rather than women’s victimisation. So the one directive I gave to the art team at Penguin was I’m more interested in Philomela’s Tapestry than her rape. And then they came back with this wonderful cover by it feature it features a tapestry by a Japanese artist, her name is Aiko, Tezuka. And she uses tapestry as a way to explore metamorphosis. So she’ll often take old tapestries and weave them and re weave them, which is just wonderful for all of its perfect, perfect, and he uses tapestry so much is a metaphor. So his even from the very first lines of the epic, he asks the gods to spin out a song for him. And so it’s a process of spinning, and he’s going to weave it together. And then you have so many wonderful female artists in the epic. You have Philomela, who uses tapestry as a way to narrate her rape when she’s lost her tongue because her rapist cuts it out. You have arachnid who weaves a tapestry in competition with Minerva, you have the mini ads, who are these wonderful set of sisters who tells stories while they’re weaving. So it really I think it pits women’s are in particular front and centre. And it’s such an important theme. Because the colours are red and white. Those are the dominant colours on the cover. And those colours are so important throughout the metamorphoses, Philomela’s Tapestry is red markings on a white background. And so that colour combination was important to me. As well, it doesn’t Be sure its central myth, just as of its doesn’t In fact, the middle is kind of wiped out by the and weaving of the tapestry that’s happening. So it kind of shows you there is no central myth here that we’re going to be dealing with. And also it features some wonderful modern images. There’s like a DNA double helix. There’s also a uterus, I don’t know if you notice that
Dr Rad 48:20
there’s a huge I do not see that.
Stephanie McCarter 48:24
So I like this idea of the undoing of the body that the cover kind of evokes. So I just I love the cover. So much. I can’t even tell you how much. I just am so happy.
Dr Rad 48:35
It’s gorgeous. It is gorgeous. Yeah, the formatting inside, it’s
Stephanie McCarter 48:40
probably a bit different from us other translators of the Metamorphoses because it kind of sets each tale apart, like it separates them and gives each like its own big title, those big titles are invented by me. Those are not in the Latin text. And that’s a little bit different. And on the one hand, it kind of breaks up the narrative in a way that maybe other translations don’t. And, and I can see how some people might be frustrated with that I had no input into that. On the other hand, there’s something really good about it and that I think it highlights stories that could easily get lost. I was talking with somebody I can’t remember who who mentioned to me that they had never noticed that after Niobe’s children are all killed. We are told that pilafs mourns for her. And pilafs is famously the victim of the gods as well he or sorry of his own father, he was kidnapped by his own father and has the average shoulder and he was said to the gods, and when the gods figured out what his father was up to, they put him back together. And so he, I don’t know he’s just it’s an interesting moment where this character can find sympathy for now be he’s the son of an impious father and she’s an hurt impiety led to her own kids getting to destroyed, but he can find space in himself to sympathise with her. And in my version that set apart like it gets its own title Pelops mourns for Niobe. And this person mentioned to me they’d never even noticed it before until they read my translation. So maybe it does that formatting can highlight stories that can easily be lost otherwise. Well, in
Dr Rad 50:21
terms of what you said about your goal being accessibility, readability and also thinking about the fact that as you say, you use this text as a teacher, and therefore you kind of approach it, I think through a teacher’s lens. I think it does assist people who are using it in an educational sense and might be wanting to dip in and out of it. So yeah, I must admit, I personally liked that aspect of it. Yeah. I’m
Stephanie McCarter 50:44
good. And some of my titles that I give the different episodes are very different from the way other people have entitled those episodes. So I think that the episode with Callisto I just simply call that story. Jove rapes Callisto. And other I know, at least one other translator calls it like Jove in Arcadia.
Dr G 51:08
Okay. Yeah.
Stephanie McCarter 51:12
So I was very influenced by feminist criticism of newspaper headlines that want people to say upfront exactly what has happened. And I have gotten a little bit of pushback by people saying, when you say rape, it implies the author is making a judgement. And I’m thinking to myself, well, he is clearly telling a story about rapes, if they were stories about murders, could I not use the word murder? Because that would imply a judgement? Yes,
Dr G 51:38
definitely. Yeah. It’s interesting, isn’t it. And I think I found the Section Breaks really useful, actually. Because it does allow a sort of a bracketing off. And it can also, I think, be an overwhelming kind of text to approach. This is true for any epic, but when you see the translation that laid out on the page, and it’s like, I think to myself, what’s my commitment to getting through the text, you know, like, how long before I get a real break. And sometimes when you’re thinking about something like the Aeneid, or we’re thinking about the Odyssey, you’re like, I got a whole book of poetry to get through before I get a break. And it’s like, if I if I don’t sit down and make a commitment, we are in trouble. Whereas this allows for a more sort of a dipping in moment, a dipping out moment. And so yesterday, I was sitting down, I was like, You know what I’m interested in how Medea’s story is being told here. And so I could go to that section and go through that part. It’s in specifics, and that would be obviously good for me to contextualise later by going out and looking at the whole book and doing that. So we had approach but he didn’t have to read the whole book in order to get there, which I think was really handy.
Stephanie McCarter 52:48
That’s good to know. I mean, sometimes you need to catch your breath to I mean, it gives you horrific things happen here, right? It gives you a moment to death.
Dr Rad 52:59
And let’s face it, researches and historians, they don’t always have the time to read an entire text just for the one reference that they really need. And so I’m really I’m really pulling back the veil here on what we do. Yeah, I mean, if you’re given a deadline for an article or book or something like that, you know, you only have so much time and when you’re looking at an epic text, you’re like, oh my god, I just want this flooding reference. I hate this whole thing.
Stephanie McCarter 53:27
You know, having taught Ovid many times I can say I had never read the entire epic through before, of course I had and someone who sits down is even taller, but in poetry. So this is another reason to become a translator. It’s going to compel you to read carefully, all the things translating Catullus right now and I realised as I’m going through like they were poems I know so well. I basically have them memorised. And there are some poems. I didn’t even know this. So it’s nice to be compelled to read more. Absolutely.
Dr Rad 53:57
That’s that’s exactly what we all do. Let’s be real.
Dr G 54:02
So heading towards the wrapping up phase of this interview. I’m interested in rewarding or interesting reactions to your translation that have touched you.
Stephanie McCarter 54:14
I think the most touching one was the book was reviewed in the in the New Yorker by DANIEL MENDELSOHN, which was wonderful, shocking. I’m still in disbelief that it was reviewed there. This was a letter that came in to the New Yorker after Daniel Mendelssohn reviewed it and this anonymous letter writer writes, I appreciate it no Mendelssohn’s consideration of Stephanie McCarter’s new translation of all of its metamorphosis, which presents the sexual violence that appears in the poem clearly. I reread the metamorphosis earlier this year 19 years after I was raped during the summer of my high school graduation. After a decade of therapy, I was struck by avid sensitivity to the complex social and familial dynamics that follow in the wake of sexual violence. As in his poetry, victims aren’t simply transformed into other bodies they are abandoned, exiled and sometimes punished. She goes on to talk about Medusa. Medusa story is especially illustrative after Neptune rapes her in the nervous temple, the goddess turns her hair into snakes and banishes her to the farthest corner of the world to live with the monstrous Gorgon sisters, all who Look upon her who witnessed her in shame turned to stone. I know this phenomenon well. I have felt isolated in my biological and chosen families and have lost friends and romantic relationships because I stopped pretending. Even briefly that nothing had happened to me. People often turn away from what they prefer not to see McCarter’s translation with its attentiveness to these elements of its poem is a gift to those who are ready to reflect on their experiences as victims of and bystanders to rape. I hope that it helps people learn to talk about this trauma and softens hard hearts. So that having that letter published by The New Yorker and being able to read that was something I mean, I wept afterwards. That’s good to say on tearing
Dr G 56:02
up just hearing that letter. That’s
Dr Rad 56:06
really powerful. Yeah. So that was,
Stephanie McCarter 56:08
for me the most. Still the the I can read that and know that all the effort I put in was, without a doubt, or every
Dr Rad 56:20
bit of it. Well, I think it just goes to show that you have certainly reached those goals that you set for yourself at the beginning of the translation. And it’s so touching for all of us who are involved in studying the ancient world to think about the power that an ancient texts can still have in somebody’s life these days. Absolutely.
Stephanie McCarter 56:40
And I think a good translation does show you that, you know, all of it isn’t. He’s not revelling in these characters, victimhood, right. And he’s, he’s, he’s very interested in, in analysing what they’ve gone through and their trauma and to, to see that happen across millennia, is, I think, quite powerful. And it’s been very powerful for my students. And it’s been very powerful for me personally, as well, to know that there is this connection there across time.
Dr Rad 57:08
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I’ve had a growing appreciation, I think, the translation and I hope that this particular episode, really highlights for our listeners in an age of increasing discussion of AI and Google Translate and those sorts of features. I think it just goes to show that these sorts of things really can’t replicate what you do with a translator of any text. But I think, particularly these sorts of ancient texts, you have to become, as you say, so familiar with the metre, the person, you have to think about their context, your context, you have to think about how the audience is going to respond. There’s just so much, and so much careful choice that goes into a translation. I mean, as I say, I’m always in awe of translators, because language never came easily to me. And once I, once I started looking into it, the more I learned about it, the more I was just utterly gobsmacked it, I think it’s something that we sometimes take for granted that we can just have translations of things into the language that we want. But it’s really not an easy task by any means.
Stephanie McCarter 58:09
Absolutely, which is why it’s been so great for me to see more classical translators getting some recognition and attention. So there I am with you, for many years, I didn’t I didn’t think about them, I took them for granted until I became one. And now Now I, I really hope that the field will start to recognise translation a lot more, I’m hoping that, you know, I’m hoping that we’re really embracing it. And not just, you know, popularly but also, you know, through things like tenure and promotion, which translation has not always counted towards. And
Dr G 58:43
I think this is incredible that this field that sits right at the heart of a lot of the ideas of the university as well in its sort of historical formation, that translation, still, in this modern era is not necessarily considered the kind of work output that is relevant for the discipline. And it’s like, and it’s so essential, so absolutely essential. Absolutely.
Stephanie McCarter 59:07
I think I think for so long, a lot of that is because we embrace the languages so much that if you know, to be a real classicist, you had to set up Greek and Latin, right? And rather than there being a group of Classicist who could produce translations so that these can be broadly accessible, right? Classes, classics has not always been a field that embraced accessibility. It embraced exclusivity. And I think that’s played so much into the way that we think have thought historically about translation. And it’s not unique to classics, but I think it’s been especially prominent in the field of classics. Oh, Look,
Dr Rad 59:47
at USP, you’re preaching to the converted, but the more I learned about translation, the more I was like, why would one person ever take this on? It’s like, it’s massive. You clearly need more than one brain working on this or you need here. Huge amounts of funding because the time that effort that goes into it is insane. I mean, this is the thing, when Dr. G and I are working on things sure, like if you know, if we sit down and really put our minds to it, we can do a translation. But is it going to be any good? Is it going to really capture what that person is released
Dr G 1:00:18
one episode every six months, maybe?
Dr Rad 1:00:22
Yeah, it’s just, it’s just like, oh my god, like, why would we even bother if we don’t have expertise? Like we rely on people out there to produce really great translations, you know, who have given their heart and soul to it as you have, and who loves delving into the minutia. Because otherwise, as you say, it’s just a literal translation of the Latin. And so yeah, I’ve often thought this is clearly something that calls for a group effort, rather than one person slaving away, you know, translating the text every, like 20 years when something’s changed in the context, and we need to do translation.
Stephanie McCarter 1:00:58
But then there’s so many texts that have no good translations like, yeah, at all. And I have been told I was told when I embarked on translation for the first time by a colleague not in classics, but in a different field. But in an r1 Institute. We in the US, ICANN R1 institution, so it’s primarily research based university. So we wouldn’t give you gratitude not tenure. For
Dr G 1:01:25
and I’ll never forget this. So telling.
Stephanie McCarter 1:01:27
Telling, yes, absolutely. But I am lucky that I’m at a and I get I don’t think that this phenomenon exists so much in Australia, but at a liberal arts college. And so we are dedicated teaching undergraduate students and have a very broad view of what contribution to the field looks like. And the stars on campus are the creative writers. So we have a great creative writing programme. We have the Swanee review, which is the oldest continuously published literary quarterly in the United States. The Sewanee writers come Conference, which is a few weeks every summer where I sort of hide in my office because all of these wonderful writers I’m intimidated by come to town. Oh, no,
Dr G 1:02:12
you’ll have to be in there next. Come on.
Stephanie McCarter 1:02:16
This is this is what I realised that novelists weren’t actually gods that they were real people. Just be walking around and I’d see some amazing novelists. So we have you know, our have been I’ve benefited enormously from the context of my institution, they’ve been very supportive. That
Dr Rad 1:02:33
is good to hear. And Look, we’d love to wrap up with a final question. Are you working on something new at the moment? Or are you taking a well deserved break by the sounds?
1:02:45
There’s no well deserved break. So I have a few things. So I have a book book that’s coming out in September, called women in power. It’s also published by Penguin. And it is a it’s kind of an anthology, not a source book, but an anthology about ancient women, both mythological and real. And so we have a variety of existing translations, and then some new translations, but the women that you can expect to read about are people like Dido and Hypsipyle, and Omphale, and Semiramis. So legendary women, I translated Aristophanes assembly women in full for that, which is a lot of fun. And we have historical women. So we have Boudicca, we have Alexandra Salome, we have Amanirenas, Queen of Kush, we have a wide array of real women and historical or and literary women. And then so that’s coming out in September, I’m also translating khatola. So that will be at some stage.
Dr Rad 1:03:46
That’ll be interesting, because he’s language is certainly a feature.
Stephanie McCarter 1:03:51
Gonna be fun. And then I just signed a contract to translate the Ars amatoria, yes.
Dr G 1:03:57
Oh, this is gonna be very exciting.
1:04:01
I’m gonna be returning both to Ovid and to Australia, because I will be coming to spend another year to there in 2025 2026 to translate the Ars amatoria.
Dr G 1:04:11
I feel like we’re gonna have to take a flight to Brisbane.
Dr Rad 1:04:14
I was gonna say I think if you’re up for it, we’ll have to do an in person episode on your latest work if you’re up for it. That
Stephanie McCarter 1:04:21
sounds wonderful. You know, you could always twist my arm and get me to come down to Sydney. You’re in Sydney says
Dr Rad 1:04:27
oh, sorry. Sure. Cool down here. Not today, but in general.
Dr G 1:04:33
Don’t right now. This summer has been just moist and awful.
Dr Rad 1:04:39
Yeah, throughout the entire interview, I’ve been like dabbing my my heart and my athletic going. Oh my god. Oh, well, Professor Stephanie micarta. Thank you so much for your amazing translation and for speaking to us about it today. listeners. I’m sure you’re all dying to run out and pick up a copy of the gorgeously A decorated of his Metamorphoses for yourself. Thank you for listening to this special episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes at WWW dot partial historians.com. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes, just like this one. You can also pre order our new book right now. Your cheeky guide to the Roman Empire will be out later this year. However, if you lost all your money betting on a chariot race, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Until next time, yeah yours in ancient room
Episode 150 - Rhetorical Fireworks
May 09, 2024
It is 403 BCE and we’re about to be blinded by some rhetorical fireworks. The situation between Rome and Veii is getting more serious.
Episode 150 – Rhetorical Fireworks
We’ve Got Chills, They’re Speechifying!
As the Romans prepare for a long siege, the suggestion was casually made that the soldiers will need to remain in winter quarters. The Romans were not used to being in the field this long and the tribunes of the plebeians were immediately suspicious. Is this why military pay had just been introduced? To distract the people whilst forcing them to live in a state of slavery? Outrageous. Nonetheless, this is what the plebeians get when they keep electing patricians into office.
One of the military tribunes decides to hit back at the tribunes with their own epic speech. Who better for the task than the uber-patrician Appius Claudius? Let’s watch those rhetorical fireworks fly!
Appius’ speech, with its’ mixture of conservatism and logic, is so effective that he wins some of the people over. As everything hangs in the balance, word reaches Rome of a serious setback at Veii. A sneaky night attack led to all the Roman siege equipment being destroyed by fire and some of the soldiers had died trying to extinguish the blaze.
Aule Metele (The Orator). A hollow-cast bronze showing an Etruscan male known as Aulus Metellus or Aule Metele in Roman-style clothing, dated to early 1st century BCE.. While this figure is not from our time period, the combination of Etruscan and Roman culture and the speechifying aspect of this statue seemed appropriate! Courtesy of https://www.collegesidekick.com/study-guides/boundless-arthistory/later-etruscan-art
This disaster tips the balance in favour of Appius’ arguments. Patricians and plebeians put their differences aside so that they could focus on the war effort. Those Etruscans were asking for it!
The senate no longer had to worry about whether the people were on board regarding winter service. Romans from various backgrounds were throwing themselves at the senate, begging to be allowed to go to war.
Who knew that war could make people so happy? That’s the Romans for you!
Please Sir. I Want Some… More?!
Camillus, one of the Furii clan, makes his debut in this year as one of the censors. In order to pay for some of these new expenses, the censors introduced some new taxes on unmarried men and …orphans. Way to be harsh, Rome!
Our Players 403 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
M’. Aemilius Mam. f. M. n. Mamercinus (or Mamercus) (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c. p. 405, 401
L. Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat) Cos. 392, Mil. Tr. c. p. 414, 406, 401, 398
Ap. Claudius P. f. Ap. n. Crassus Inregillensis (Pat) Cos. 349 ?
M. Quinctilius L. f. L. n. Varus (Pat)
L. Iulius Sp.? f. Vopisci? n. Iullus (Pat)
M. Furius – f. – n. Fusus (Pat)
? M. Postumius (Pat)
? M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381
? M. Postumius A. f. A. n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 426
Censors
M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381
M. Postumius A. f. A. n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 426
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy, ab Urbe Condita, 5.1-5.7.
Dr G reads Plutarch, Life of Camillus, 1-3; Valerius Maximus 2.9.1; Diodorus Siculus, 14.35.1.
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Dr Rad: Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other.
Dr Rad: I’m Dr Rad.
Dr G: And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad: Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr Rad 0:32 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historian’s. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad.
Dr G 0:41 And I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 0:44 So exciting Dr. G, because we are in yet another new recording setup.
Dr G 0:51 Oh yeah, this is very exciting, dear listeners, through the valued support of our honoured patrons, we’ve been able to purchase some slightly upgraded microphones, hello,
Dr Rad 1:04 I know and a mixer and everything.
Dr G 1:07 I’m feeling like a genuine sound engineer who does not know what they’re doing.
Dr Rad 1:11 I Look at probably sounds crazy to you that we didn’t have these things before. But hey, you know podcasting on a shoestring. And to be honest, it’s also been very much affected by the fact that I have moved so many times that we needed to keep changing our microphones. Somewhere I was living about
Dr G 1:28 changing our setup every year or so trying to figure out what would work in what space? Yes,
Dr Rad 1:33 exactly. We’re
Dr G 1:34 pretty excited for this.
Dr Rad 1:35 We are hoping that this is the sound
Dr G 1:38 to
Dr Rad 1:42 insert one of our high quality free sound effects you
Dr G 1:45 Oh, I’m gonna keep the vocal.
Dr Rad 1:48 But that is not the only thing that is new in our life at the moment. Dr. G. From these microphones.
Dr G 1:53 I’m so excited. We are absolutely thrilled to announce our upcoming new book. I know we never thought we’d write another book again.
Dr Rad 2:08 We really didn’t. Particularly Not so soon.
Dr G 2:13 But we were absolutely floored to be approached by Ulysses press. Yes. And they are really interested in ancient Rome, but like with a bit of fun involved and a little bit of like, new Greatest Hits elements. And we were like very happy to provide that were like there are so many Greatest Hits when it comes to ancient Rome. Yes.
Dr Rad 2:38 So we are currently in the editing phase with this particular book. It will be out in November of this year, but you can pre order it now. It will be a little bit different to Rex in that we are going to be taking a slightly more populous turn, I’m going to say in a very wanqi way.
Dr G 3:01 What that means what that translates to is less footnotes yes, maybe no footnotes, more jokes,
Dr Rad 3:07 More drag race references that I’m sneaking in. Even if Dr G begs me not to,
Dr G 3:13 I can assure you that there are some Monty Python puns and references. So I’m excited for that.
Dr Rad 3:20 Yeah. So basically, it’s us doing what we’ve always done, which is taking academic material, thank you academics, and translating it into something really fun and a little bit lighter to read so that if you’re going on a holiday and you want some Roman history, you don’t have to take every volume of Edward Gibbon with you.
Dr G 3:40 Well, that’s gonna free up some space in the old luggage to
Dr Rad 3:43 ducted Gee, can you tell us just to give them a bit of a taste? What are some of our sections in the book?
Dr G 3:50 Oh goodness. All right now. So thinking about some of the sections of the book, we went for puns all the way down. Yeah, in chapter titles.
Dr Rad 3:59 I can’t help myself when it comes to my one true gift and
Dr G 4:05 the one that I’m working on at the moment is Better Call Sulla. Oh, which I quite
Dr Rad 4:12 like I do like that one. And that was actually all you.
Dr G 4:15 Why, thank you. But you’ve got some great ones. Deadtime Stories.
Dr Rad 4:20 That is one of the sections where you will find stories of Notable deaths in ancient Rome. I did also like your ‘Animal Tales’. Wink Wink.
Dr G 4:30 and ‘We built this city on rock and roads.’
Dr Rad 4:33 They certainly did. To be honest, that’s not a pun. That’s just true.
Dr G 4:37 It’s just the literal truth. It’s not my fault. Somebody wrote a song about it.
Dr Rad 4:40 Yeah. So if that sounds like your cup of tea, please jump on and preorder now because I suspect that the more pre orders they are, the more our publishers will think yes, we need more of this kind of stuff. We want to commission more books.
Dr G 4:55 And I think this is the thing with modern publishing as well like pre orders do count. We’re a lot of the sort of hyping up of something as well. So if you’re interested and you enjoy our podcast, and especially if you enjoyed Rex, I think because this will give you a sense of comparison between the different styles that these kinds of writing of history could take. Because they’re quite they’re our personalities, I think, are going to come through and shine through really strongly. In both books, yeah. But like the way that they’re laid out, and the way that they do the history is going to probably Look like a little bit different. So I think that’s really interesting as well. Yeah. What I would say I
Dr Rad 5:36 agree. And because this is written in a series of short stories, I suppose that’s really what it is kind of like short stories, and trivia and that kind of thing from ancient Rome. There’s just huge diversity there, not too long. And it really is one of those things where you can just dive in and dive out, you know, you don’t have to sit there and read the whole book in one sitting in order to understand it by what I know. Although you will, of course, miss the cumulative effect of my drag race-themed references.
Dr G 6:06 And we wouldn’t recommend missing that.
Dr Rad 6:08 Exactly. But yeah, it is one of those things where you could definitely, you know, take a chapter for a class, not one of the
Dr G 6:16 I guess it depends on the school’s policy. Well, yes. I
Dr Rad 6:18 mean, we do have a chapter on phalluses Whoa,
Dr G 6:21 you’ve let the cat out of the bag. I
Dr Rad 6:24 know. But you know what, I figured it was gonna happen anyway, with a phallic Thursday. So why not do it now? Because today will be a Thursday by the time we released this episode. That is our choice. That is That’s
Dr G 6:35 true. Yeah. All right. All right. So without further ado,
Dr Rad 6:39 let’s do it. Okay. So Dr. G, we normally don’t spruik our book, we normally talk about ancient Roman history. We go at a snail’s pace.
Dr G 6:51 We are trying to win the award for the longest ever undertaking of Roman history on
Dr Rad 6:56 important. Yeah, I think we can do it. I mean, you know,
Dr G 7:00 I know that we ain’t got no rivals right now. Everybody
Dr Rad 7:01 else has already finished. Exactly. And when you go to your lab section in your library, and you see all the volumes of liquor, you think, wow, that’s long.
Dr G 7:11 Just you wait, and you’re up to book five.
Dr Rad 7:15 Not finished it just up to it. Yeah, yeah. All right. So we’re talking about early Republican history, we last time, we actually covered a couple of years because there wasn’t a huge amount going on. But certainly, Rome was at war. They
Dr G 7:30 were and you know, I’ve had it a dearth of sources for quite some time now. And I’ve really just got like place names, hints and tips about where Rome might have been having some like military dissatisfaction or satisfaction, depending on the day
Dr Rad 7:47 Miliatry dissatisfaction. I like that way of saying war. Yes, well, last time, we were setting up the siege they, which we know is going to be something that’s ongoing and long. But we also were dealing with warfare against the Volscians. Good old Volscians. Yeah.
Dr G 8:08 What are those classic ongoing nemeses of Rome. Yes,
Dr Rad 8:12 exactly. And they actually had a bit of a victory against the Volscians thanks to a treacherous slaved. Can’t get good help these days.
Dr G 8:22 Servilius Romanus so I believe his name was That’s correct
Dr Rad 8:25 that well, that’s the name. He was given a course after he turned coat.
Dr G 8:29 And what do you think he was called before he got that name all the way to
Dr Rad 8:35 Loyalest Mostest.
Dr G 8:38 Shining Star of the Volscii I tried,
Dr Rad 8:42 He was the best slave they ever had. But anyway, so they had some victories, which was good, because you know, the situation at bay, it’s just kind of a bit of a standstill, if I’m honest. But we did also even a little bit before that something which I think is going to be significant to recap, we’ve been dealing with the issue of military paid Dr G.
Dr G 9:00 Ah yes. Yeah. Look, Livy’s seems to suggest that, what 406 is the first year where military pay gets introduced, but we’re pretty sure that’s just a sort of a hint of maybe the professionalisation of the army that will come much later. Yeah. This seems to be a bit of a one off, maybe based on circumstance. Yes.
Dr Rad 9:21 And I think that’s very much tied up with the situation out there. And since that’s our focus today, I thought I’d better mention that, because we went through the whole backstory. If you want to hear more about it, please go and check out our episode on 406 BCE to hear all the details. But certainly there’s a lot of debate about actually what was going on why it was introduced, was it introduced? What form did it take? They’re just questions that are unanswered, where does the money come from? Other than money. So I definitely suggest checking out that episode if you want the full backstory. But with that being said, Dr. G, I think it’s time to dive into 403 BCE.
You can’t see us right now listeners, but we always do wavy arms when that happens
Dr G 10:29 we insert music later in post.
Dr Rad 10:31 And we have to remind ourselves by doing the way. All right Dr. G. Now I’m guessing that Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you now,
Dr G 10:41 How dare he, I’m so sad.
Dr Rad 10:44 He’s the first man that I’ve known who’s able to keep away from you.
Dr G 10:47 I do have some very exciting news though.
Dr Rad 10:50 What is that?
Dr G 10:51 I do have a new source
Dr Rad 10:54 Is it Valerius Maximus.
Dr G 10:55 Yes. And
Dr Rad 10:59 Feel like I’m in improvisation here. What’s your other source?
Dr G 11:05 Plutarch, – gasp – I know.!
Dr Rad 11:08 Of course, Plutarch, dammit, I knew that.
Dr G 11:13 I was like, filler respects was How did she know
Dr Rad 11:15 that exciting stuff. That is exciting stuff. But Look, even though you have Plutarch, and Valerius Maximus and therefore actually out-source me. I’m still gonna let you do the magistrates, because I feel like it’s kind of become your thing.
Dr G 11:29 And also, like, as fair warning, neither of the sources that I have annalistic in nature.
Dr Rad 11:35 Well, I had a feeling .
Dr G 11:36 it’s all over the shop. So alright, so military tributes with continental power is the name of the game for 403. Is
Dr Rad 11:43 it just I feel like there are a lot of people. There
Dr G 11:47 are many, many people. At the very least there are six and at the very most possible nine. Wow. Yeah, just madness. Well, you know, there
Dr Rad 11:57 is a lot of conflict going on right now. Well, yeah. And even they insist on telling us that it’s not because of that. I feel like it is because there’s definitely something going there’s nothing going on.
Dr G 12:07 There’s a bit of bloating at the top at this point. Six military tribunes It’s a lot. So we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus.
Dr Rad 12:17 A name i know well.
Dr G 12:18 or Mamercus. Nobody sure about that one. Yeah. He was previously consul in 410. Yes. And was also a military tribune with consular power in 405. Yeah. So he’s had a couple of tours of duty at the top. Yes.
Dr Rad 12:31 And I think also, this is a name that we’re familiar with. I feel like it’s a it’s a family name that’s been passed down because we’ve had we’ve had a guy with a very similar name before who’s been involved in some stuff. Yeah. And
Dr G 12:41 the Amelii gens is one of these well known. We’ve got these famous families and This list is populated exclusively with very famous families
Dr Rad 12:52 Are you suggesting that it shouldn’t be a patrician?
Dr G 12:56 I mean, the whole point when they said they were going to have military tribunes was to allow plebeians go and that’s never happened. Clearly
Dr Rad 13:03 just a gesture. Like exactly to make people feel like they had to say but I hate it when they do that. Alright, so we’ve got Aemilius.
Dr G 13:13 number two is Lucius Valerius Potitus. Okay, yes. Also a military tribune with consular power previously in 414 and 406. Ooh, the notable year notable Yeah, so maybe popular pants.
Dr Rad 13:30 Well, the Valerii I generally a pretty popular family out they
Dr G 13:35 they say to me, yeah. Then we have Appius Claudius Crassus Inregillensis
Dr Rad 13:42 Boo Hiss!
Dr G 13:45 The Claudii are back in town.
Dr Rad 13:47 Yeah, it’s been it’s been too long. To be honest. I’ve actually been kind of missing their presence as villains in our story. Yeah,
Dr G 13:54 my note here is cool. Cool. Cool. Yeah.
I love it. Great. Fantastic.
So glad for that. Marcus Quinctilius Varus.
Dr Rad 14:05 Okay, new kid on the block
Dr G 14:06 number four. Yep. And then number five Lucius Iulius Vopisci maybe Iullus. There’s a there’s a whole bunch of I feel like we need some complicated names in there. Yeah,
Dr Rad 14:19 whenever we mentioned someone with the Iulii ‘s name I feel like there’s always like a question mark. Iullus. Yes Your name
Dr G 14:26 Yeah, like there’s like a refinement within the family tree. Oh, my
Dr Rad 14:31 Are their parents this cruel?
Dr G 14:37 And then we have Marcus Furius Fusus.
Dr Rad 14:42 thank God. The Furii have really been dropping the ball if I’m being honest. They’re back. Yeah, so back and yeah, here we sit in our Furii t-shirts ready for action?
Dr G 14:54 I’m so excited. So these are the six who we are feel relatively confident. And confidence is a pretty low measure of things when it comes to this period of Roman history, because we’ve got the FastI Capitolini is essentially the source for these names. And we know it was created late.
Dr Rad 15:12 I actually have the perfect analogy for this. It’s about as confident as I feel in a bikini. Oh, that’s not much listeners, not much, but
Dr G 15:21 you Look great. And then we’ve got these three other figures who shadowing Yeah, they don’t appear on the Fasti. Also, it seems weird that they have to be somewhere because they do things in this year. Sure. The first one is Marcus Postumius. And this might be a real furphy of a figure because we’re about to have another Marcus Postumius Albinus Regillensis. I did notice that they were to be the same guy. But one we don’t know their full name. Yep. But the really important one out of these three is Marcus Furius Camillus.
Dr Rad 16:01 See? Suspicious? Because why do we have two sets of guys with very similar names? I know, Camillus is the guy that you were reading about in Plutarch. So I know he’s a he’s a thing. But it’s just weird to have two sets of guys with very similar names and question marks around some of them.
Dr G 16:21 Yeah, so we’ve got that Marcus Furius Fusus. As a military Tribune, yeah, we’ve got our Marcus Furius Camillus. Yeah, like, Okay, well, I mean, they are different names. But there’s only one name. That’s different. All right. Okay. Yeah, that’s possible. But is it? Is it what’s going on? And then the two Marcus Postumii? i Yeah, yeah. So we’ve got lots of questions. And not only that, those last three that have the question marks around them, as potential military tribunes with consular power. Two of them may have also have served as censors with more question marks. Yeah,
Dr Rad 16:56 definitely. It’s not just question marks about whether they were censors. I mean, we have question marks about how official any of these sorts of positions really are. I know that it was actually quite a while ago that we did an episode about the census in the Republic. But nonetheless, there are questions about how the Romans really at this early stage regularly taking a census of a Oh,
Dr G 17:19 there. Yeah, these are the things that again, you know, it’s we’re just not sure about? Yeah, there’s definitely been instances where the census has been referenced before show that we’ve just absolutely, yeah, whether they’re doing a census now open to question whether these two guys, are the censors, even bigger questions, because the way that we understand the census, from later periods when we’ve got much better evidence, is that the censorship is kind of this additional mastery that sits above and beyond and slightly outside of the cursus. honorum. Yeah. But it tends to be the kind of position that you only take up once you’ve reached that whole threshold within the Cursus honorum. So it would be usually given to somebody extremely wise, extremely powerful. Somebody who’s had the consulship before. And in this case, we’ve got a couple of what appeared to me maybe no names coming through.
Dr Rad 18:14 He’s a Furii!
Dr G 18:17 Oh, yeah. But even so
Dr Rad 18:20 to be starting your career with this, which is what it seems like
Dr G 18:23 that’s that’s the way that the evidence is presenting itself right now. Yeah. And that makes us wonder, what do we know about the censorship? Really? Yes, period, which is not a lot. How does that compare to the later version of the censorship? We’re not sure. And who is this Camillus character anyway?
Dr Rad 18:41 Well, exactly. And I mean, I think one of the things we can say about the censors and the census in this period is that, Look, if I was going to bet on anything, it’d be that they’re taking account of the citizens, because that’s just makes good sense. But as for the other powers that a censor has, they’re the ones I have real questions about. So I’m
Dr G 19:03 looking forward to the sorts of details that Livy might have on this. And so then I can share with you the really bizarre details that I think I might have.
Dr Rad 19:11 Let me tell you 403 is another bumper year. It’s kind of like the way that I make my stepkids have like only big birthdays every three years, four or six was a big year now for three is a big sorry stepkids. Anyway, all right. So let me set the scene for you a little bit and you can jump in with your Plutarch and your Valerius Maximus when you feel the need. So peace was to be found everywhere in Italy, except between Rome and Veii
Dr G 19:44 Wow, okay, well, that does not explain six military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad 19:48 No. Now, as we said, we know that there was conflict brewing in this quarter that has been bubbling away for the last couple of years. Okay. Hence potential The Military Pay may be becoming a feature, right? So by this point, after a few years, they’re both incredibly worked up. And I’m sorry, I’m just gonna have to use this analogy. It’s a Harry Potter and Voldemort situation one of them has to go. They can’t both survive at the moment. It’s just at that point, it’s going to be a war to the death this time. So both cities hold their different kinds of elections. Romans decided that they were going to go for military tribunes, as you’ve noted, and even Livy notes that there were more than usual, he gives me the number of eight. Oh,
Dr G 20:39 okay. Well, out of a possible nine. Interesting.
Dr Rad 20:43 Exactly, exactly. Now, the people are they they’re channelling a bit of the feelings that the Romans had not so long ago, which is that they are O V A campaigning, year in year out. It’s just military service. It’s just fighting. So they decide that a way of dealing with this situation would be to elect a king. Oh, I know. Fascinating. I know. Right? Oh,
Dr G 21:10 well. I mean, so the Etruscans have kings. Yeah. They’ve had kings before. It’s an option. Yeah. I didn’t know they weren’t doing it all the time.
Dr Rad 21:19 Well, yeah. This is the interesting thing, isn’t it? Yes. And the other interesting detail I can add here is that the rest of the Etruscan people because of course Veii is just one city, out of many Etruscan cities, 12 ,in fact, and the other Etruscan people are horrified. They hate the idea of kings, apparently. And they also personally dislike the person who was elected. So it’s a double whammy that that suggests
Dr G 21:46 that the politics of the Etruscans has really progressed since we last checked in with how they were running their show.
Dr Rad 21:51 I was gonna say they seemed very upset when Lars Tolumnius died. He was a king. Exactly. That wasn’t that long ago. It was not that long ago. I mean, for us, it was years ago, of course, but for them, it was decades. Yeah, it is a bit strange. And it feels like
Dr G 22:09 a narrative of convenience. Livy? Look,
Dr Rad 22:12 it seems like it’s been about 35 years since we’ve had an Etruscan King mentioned in a way that we can understand about Yeah, and nothing has been said about, you know, the Etruscans going down the Roman path of swearing that as God was theirwitness, they’d never have kings again.
Dr G 22:29 I’m throwing you out and you’re staying out! Yeah!,
Dr Rad 22:32 so it seems like maybe the Romans are just assuming that everybody hates kings as much as they do. But it does also imply this weird thing that kings are somehow an optional accessory in the Etruscan state.
Dr G 22:44 Maybe they are an optional accessory, but doesn’t sound like anybody Etruria is very happy about that.
Dr Rad 22:49 It’s just so weird. But anyway, now the reason why crisis Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Maybe Maybe their option of King is a bit like the Roman option of dictator. Maybe that’s what it’s about. But who knows, unfortunately, Livi gives me no more detail. He just goes on to trash the king in question. Now, the reason why he was disliked was that he was super duper wealthy and arrogant. What a terrible combination.
Dr G 23:16 I don’t know why you’d put somebody like that in power
Dr Rad 23:18 I know. Now on top of that, his actions suggests that he’s just not really a very kingly character. He had busted up a very serious sacred religious festival. I mean, that’s sacrilege. Dr. G
Dr G 23:31 Literally. Okay. So the gods aren’t on Veii’s side at this.
Dr Rad 23:35 It was in a this is where we’re going because yeah, basically, he was just angry about some perceived slights politically and so he was in a bad mood, and he decided he was going to ruin the Gods good time.
Dr G 23:49 Okay, do we have this guy’s name?
Dr Rad 23:51 No don’t think so. So anyway, he’s not happy about the fact that the Etruscans had chosen someone else to be priest instead of him. He says get the better of him. Clearly somebody whose emotions not under control, which means it’s weird that if they’re only electing a king in a time of crisis, they turned to this guy.
Dr G 24:12 Yeah, you’re not putting the best man in for the job. No wonder the rest of the Etruria is up in arms, being like, are you idiots?
Dr Rad 24:19 Yeah. And the Etruscans. As we know, the stereotype is in Roman sources that they are very religious, like more religious than the Romans. I mean, Livy basically given the impression in this account that they live for nothing but religion.
Dr G 24:33 Well, and a lot of Roman ritual seems to have been passed through in from that cultural lens of the Etruscans as well. So you definitely see where that idea might come from.
Dr Rad 24:43 Oh, for sure. Look, there’s no denying that the Etruscans were religious people, but we know that something of a stereotype that they are, you know, it’s like saying the ancient Egyptians were for religion like yeah, it was very important was very central, but we have to also remember, that’s also just the kind of stuff that survived from their civilization. You know, the big stone temples and whatnot? Yes, they did take it very seriously. But we are only looking at part of the puzzle here. So I’m always a bit you know, hesitant about that kind of stuff but as we know they’re also very big intellect religious rights, making sure that they are followed through properly. So this kind of thing, just not okay in the Etruscan rulebook according to the Romans.
Dr G 25:23 What a lens. Yeah, now
Dr Rad 25:25 the Etruscans decided as a people like as in collectively, that they were not going to assist very in any conflicts. If they insisted on having a king. They actually took a vote on it. Wow, okay, you’re out in your own. Yep. You absolutely. Oh, boy. The people were they did not tell the king this because they were really worried that given his temper, he was going to shoot the messenger.
Dr G 25:48 Seems like this is going to lead to some future problem. Yeah, yeah.
Dr Rad 25:52 He basically would have seen anyone who told him this as the head of some secret rebel conspiracy against him, rather than someone who was just simply reporting what had happened. Oh, yeah. Yes. So the Romans hear about this. And this is obviously good news for the Romans, because they now know that they is kind of on their own. However, they’re also aware that that might not always be the case. And clearly, they’re kind of aware that this is going to be a long game situation, just in case they decide while they’re doing their season, that they’re going to build double fortifications. One set looking to vai and one set looking in the general direction of Etruria. Which to be honest, I feel like they both have
Dr G 26:39 a very similar position. Just in
Dr Rad 26:43 case they decided like once things started getting real, that they were going to come to Veii’s aid after all. Okay,
Dr G 26:50 so is the idea here that these fortifications are relatively close to Veii as opposed to Rome, Rome is not taking a defensive position here, but more, they’re putting a forward fortification in place to enable them to have a position to easily attack from I
Dr Rad 27:07 wish that he gave me that much detail. I don’t I don’t really know. But the way it’s described, it does kind of sound like it might be defensive fortifications for Rome, perhaps. And that’s why maybe they’re slightly different directions. Because obviously, if you would literally at they, why would you build double fortifications, you’re literally on the doorstep? Well,
Dr G 27:28 it means that you can have like, sort of an encampment,
Dr Rad 27:31 I suppose. Yeah, that’s true. They are setting up an encampment, so not a
Dr G 27:35 terrible military strategic. Really?
Dr Rad 27:39 I mean, I know that they are obviously deciding on a seat. Okay.
Dr G 27:44 So if we’re thinking about the position of a relative to the position of the rest of Etruria. Yeah, Veii is directly north, not very far away. No. So you could have something that sort of positioned at the edge of the Tiber River, presumably, on Rome side, defensive fortification, but you could also have something off to the north east, potentially, on the side of the Janiculum. That would allow a sort of more advanced forward defence fortification,
Dr Rad 28:13 let’s run with that the Romans seem to know what they’re doing. So I’m going to assume that they’re being smart about it. Let’s hope so. Yeah. Now, this is obviously an interesting situation, because once again, we do have this division between the Etruscans, you know that they’re not automatically going to fight together. Now, we’ve seen this before, it’s very clear that each of the 12, Etruscan civilizations are free to act independently. It’s not something you can assume that they’re going to all come together and come to your aid and that sort of thing. However, it does show what we see the common bond between them that they actually get together and vote on these sorts of issues, as well as having religious celebrations which can be interrupted. So
Dr G 28:54 it’s a well functioning League of states, essentially.
Dr Rad 28:59 Yes, exactly. Yeah. All right. So the Roman generals who are in charge, they have decided upon a siege, not just a straight attack at bay, therefore, the soldiers are going to be setting up winter quarters, which they have not apparently done before. Well,
Dr G 29:17 that doesn’t make sense. According to 406 BCE.
Dr Rad 29:23 This is the thing I think this is how these stories are connected. And Look, I told you the chronology is messy at this point in time and things might not be happening quite when Livy’s says they are in quite the order, etc, etc. But this is exactly what the plebeians had been suspicious about some of the complaints I should say, when military pay was introduced. So kind of like, Guys, this stuff isn’t coming to you for free. Like there’s always going to be strings attached. The patricians aren’t just randomly nice, even though that’s what you seem to be taking away from this situation.
Dr G 29:57 I’m shivering in this new camp. The made and even though they pay me, I don’t know if it’s worth losing all my toes.
Dr Rad 30:05 Dear Lucretia I don’t know whose idea it was for us to wear sandals all the time, but I hate it. And why do we wear skirts?
Dr G 30:16 My balls are freezing.
Dr Rad 30:20 All right, sir. People in Rome hear about this decision, and they’re not happy about it. Specifically, an a tribune of the plebs. Oh,
Dr G 30:31 I have no named characters. Oh. They’re just out and about. I mean, I assume they exist. Yeah.
Dr Rad 30:39 I don’t know who the tribunes actually are, except for the fact that they are once again troublesome, unhappy with the situation. Yeah, exactly. So Livy’s says that it’s because everything had actually been quite fine. And they’ve been given nothing to be upset about that they decided to make a mountain out of a molehill about this whole issue, because they needed to find something to be upset about because otherwise the plebeians weren’t going to be unhappy with the patricians and things would be peaceful.
Dr G 31:03 I don’t know about that just told them that they’re gonna have to overwinter as part of this new military strategy. I feel like the plebs are pretty capable of being upset all by themselves,
Dr Rad 31:14 Pish tosh Dr G. It’s quite clearly a situation of things being spun so that they Look much worse than they actually are.
Dr G 31:22 Oh, Livy’s, revealing your conservative leanings. Exactly.
Dr Rad 31:26 Yeah. So the tribunes of the plebs decide that this is something they could make the plebeians angry about. And so they start doing that. They start pointing out, we told you strings attached, those are strings Pinocchio, where you told you that there would be some reason that money was being introduced to military service. We knew it, we knew it. We told you, so we’re going to do the I told you so dance. Because they had suspected the patricians would never do something just to be nice. Young men are clearly going to be required now to serve endlessly. Where’s the time for self care? Where’s the time for family? Where is the work life balance? Winter has now been taken away from us. It’s not coming. It’s going. Why? Why? Because the patricians were trying to get virile young bands out of the city, so they could not campaign for anything or help the plebeians as a group. These were going to be the young men who were sent off to Veii, they of course, they’re going to be worse off than the people in Veii because clearly they’re going to be left defenceless and alone.
Dr G 32:21 Or use bad times. And I can see that maybe the tribune of the plebs have an interest in like whipping up the plebeians?
Dr Rad 32:46 Of course. Oh, yeah. And they’re not done yet.
Dr G 32:49 I’m still having the visual of them dancing on like the rostra being like,
it’s happening. We foreshadowed it is happening.
And everybody being like Booooooo! Yeah.
Dr Rad 33:03 Well, they point out that the people of Veii because they’re the ones being besieged, they get to live in their own houses. They get to live behind their own walls, where are the plebeians going to be out in the middle of frickin nowhere shivering, that’s adopted you the
Dr G 33:19 convenience of being the besieged. I
Dr Rad 33:21 know, the ones enduring food shortages and famine, potentially, I don’t know. So the Roman soldiers are going to have the pressure of being constantly on the watch on the job. And they’re doing it in winter conditions. Oh, you wait for Dr. G. They can no whip out the S word. This is slavery.
Dr G 33:42 Oh, my God. Yeah,
Dr Rad 33:45 not even the kings. Not even the consuls, and I’m talking about the consoles before there was the option technically of military tribune with consular power where plebeians could technically run for office, but they never get it. Okay, dictators, decemvirs. None of them as bad as they were had to treat the plebeians like this keeping them at war. Always.
Dr G 34:10 Who’s gonna grow the food? Yeah, who’s gonna defend the city if another enemy like, I don’t know, the Volscii show up.
Dr Rad 34:18 Oh, and you haven’t even thought of the worst situation. Dr. G. What if the men now trying to impose these conditions on the people ever became actual consuls instead of military tribunes with consular power or worse yet, dictators, Dear God, it would be a blood bath. But of course Dr G, the plebeians kind of deserved it because after all, they have yet to elect a single to plebeian to the Office of Military Tribune with consular power and now they were flanked by eight patrician options. What the actual hell?
Dr G 35:03 the argument that the tribute of the plebs are putting forward? Like you’ve had to chance, this is what you’ve done. I’m
Dr Rad 35:08 still channelling their voice. These are my points of view. No, no, no. You got I just got she’s lost it. Truck finally got to it. No, no, no, no, this is what they’re saying. They’re like, Couldn’t there be just one out of eight? To remind the patricians that the plebeians would like to see their families from time to time? End of story.
Dr G 35:32 We just need a seat at the table, guys. Yeah. And you didn’t do it never voted anyone in
Dr Rad 35:38 exactly. And you know it to be honest, if things are happening the way that they say I actually do not blame them. However, it seems super suspicious that the plebeians would never elect one of their own. Like, it’s just been too long at this point in time. And this is one of those things where we have to suspect the narrative of the conflict of the orders. It just doesn’t make sense. It is
Dr G 36:01 a problematic narrative in many respects. And I think also part of our issue is that we would love to know more about how the voting system actually worked at this point in time, but it’s very early days in terms of the Republican system. And the very concept of saying that there is a Republican system is maybe too soon for that. Absolutely. So is it the case that the plebeians are not in a position politically in terms of the nature of the voting to be able to get up one of their own? I suspect that’s what I feel like if we Look at the way that voting systems turn out in a later Republic, that might be part of the explanation. But it’s also Yeah, it just seemed weird. I mean, from Livy’s sort of rhetorical perspective, because he’s definitely bringing some light, you know, big, bold characterizations here. Some sweeping brushstrokes, and quiet like of the drama. is, there’s this suggestion that there’s this ongoing process of struggle that sits behind everything. Yes. And so that question about what is going on here, is never really fully resolved. Now, from a historians perspective,
Dr Rad 37:15 I think that’s exactly it. As we’ve often highlighted, I just find it hard to believe that if the liens truly are a outnumbering the patricians, which seems likely given everything we’ve been told, and be able to elect one of their own to the most prestigious office in the state, it just seems so unlikely that they wouldn’t have done it at least once in the past, what, 45 years or something, they’ve been able to do it, it just doesn’t make sense. There has to be something else going on here. Which if we Look at the voting system, as you say, it might be that technically the rich, their vote counts for more, or something like that. Who knows? But it’s got to be something like that.
Dr G 37:53 That certainly plays into later understandings of voting systems. But yes, yeah, yeah.
Dr Rad 37:58 Yeah,
Dr G 37:59 interesting and dramatic.
Dr Rad 38:00 I know. I think the thing that we that I reason why I have to highlight it is because it’s just so disgusting. That Livy’s makes it their fault, that their situation
Dr G 38:13 Way to victim blame Livy. Exactly,
Dr Rad 38:15 exactly, yes. Like, you know, oh, you can’t afford to turn the heating on for your family. You can’t afford good food for your family, it was clearly your fault for being poor. I just find those narratives too similar to some that we hear today as well.
Dr G 38:29 Completely demeaning, and inappropriate. Exactly.
Dr Rad 38:33 Now, you may have noticed that the way I was speaking just soon, as well, you did notice that it’s kind of odd, because I wasn’t actually giving you like a speech, per se. And there was no one named right. Lean into that because I think that’s also I think that’s also a rhetorical device because we’re about to have our response that goes for paragraphs to what the tribune of the plebs said, which is just reported, it’s not an actual speech, okay. It’s likely to be paraphrasing what they’re talking about. Okay. And they are unnamed, and
Dr G 39:05 he’s now going to give a real like a speech in quotation marks as far as he’s concerned. Yeah.
Dr Rad 39:10 He is now giving a speech – flesh rabbits. Boing, boing! to none other than Appius Claudius. Oh, no. He’s back baby. Well, I mean, he’s not, but yeah, his family is back.
Dr G 39:28 The Boys are back in town.
Oh, well, I can’t wait to hear what a Claudii has to say on this matter. Yeah.
Dr Rad 39:36 It is quite a long speech. So basically, one of the reasons obviously for having 8 military tribunes with consular power is that some of them obviously need to be off setting up the siege against Veii dealing with that kind of stuff, but he can’t leave the people of Rome completely unattended, especially if they’re mostly plebeians. Who knows what they get up to Dr. G, and therefore, some military tribunes had been late. Left Behind specifically to snuff out any potential treachery and it’s just as well, they did, because the tribune of the plebs has played right into their hands.
Dr G 40:08 Oh, boy. All right. Okay, that’s the setup. It’s not the case that you would want to have a military Tribune located in Rome, like you do almost every year that we’ve had military tribunes in exactly just in case. Yep. Somebody comes up from another area. Yeah. And attempts to attack road nothing to do while the other guys are out and about.
Dr Rad 40:28 It’s not normal. It’s not normal. It’s clearly something concerning, there’s something sinister going on. Oh, there is now Appius Claudius comes from a family very experienced with dealing with tribune of the plebs, and they like, and their attempts to stir up trouble. Now, although this is not the famous Appius Claudius, in fact, there’s been a couple of famous Appius Claudii that we have dealt with over the years. This is not one of the ones you know, from the December and that sort of thing, but these are their descendants and therefore, as we have highlighted before, the Romans actually think they are very similar in character. This is a guy that we have mentioned before there, he was the one who a few years ago suggested the strategy of turning the tribune of the plebs against each other. Oh,
Dr G 41:14 yeah. Okay, this guy, this Appius Claudius. Yeah. Okay. Now, of course, cut from the same cloth,
Dr Rad 41:21 educated Roman. He’s got the gift of the gab Dr. G. He’s good with his rhetoric. And that’s why he gets an actual speech apparently, and a name. They could now be no doubt that the tribune of the plebs were not really working for the benefit of the plebeians. They’re just troublemakers. It’s obvious. Whenever there may have been something wrong with their lives, emphasis on the word May, the tribune of the plebs just blow it all out of proportion and make it into such a big deal. Now, they were even stooping so low Dr. G, that they were trying to spin something good into something evil. Military Pay was designed by the patricians to restore peace to Roman society, but it is a cool way to claim that the tribune of the plebs just want to hate whatever the patricians do, regardless of whether it actually benefits the plebeians or not so ungrateful. I know. The Tribunes of the plebs only exists to solve political problems so they can then create them. Or they can just so they can stay in a job.
Dr G 42:35 If it’s not dramatic, like why are we here? I mean, the people don’t need looking after if everything’s good, right, so things must be bad.
Dr Rad 42:41 Exactly. Now, the tribune of the plebs, jealously guard access to the lands and won’t allow contact between the plebeians and the patricians because they don’t want anyone realising how kind and magnanimous and just frickin amazing the patricians actually are because their loyalties might get transferred. They need to keep them angry and separated.
Dr G 43:07 Are we talking about the same Claudii, who have treated everybody so badly so often over successive generations? They have not treated me and you’re telling me this, Claudius is now telling us that, you know, they’ve got a heart of gold and they’ve just been misunderstood. I think
Dr Rad 43:23 you will find if you examine the historical record that the Claudii have been harsh, but fair, oh, boy. So he basically likens this again to slavery. Interestingly, saying it’s kind of like when the Masters won’t allow other people to interact with their slaves in any capacity whether to you know, beat them up or give them a little kiss or something, because they just don’t want them exposed to you know, any outside influences. That’s what this situation is like. The champions of the plebs should clearly have spent some time fostering their kindly side, and by their I mean the patrician’s kind side. And they should have been working on the plebeians obedience. Oh, Harmony would be possible. If the tribunes just you know, got on the good side of the patricians and made the plebeians obey everything they said, clearly,
Dr G 44:18 I think this, this whole argument rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the role of the tribune of the plebs might be. Well,
Dr Rad 44:26 I think you’ll change your mind cuz I’ve got quite some time. Now, if there was internal peace in Rome because the patricians and plebeians were actually getting along with each other, the sky was the limit for Rome. It’s this internal division that’s holding them back. They would dominate everyone in the area. But alas, Tribune’s.
Dr G 44:48 Okay, all right. Appius. Claudius,
Dr Rad 44:51 now he gets the actual point of military pay. So the tribunes of the plebs, were suggesting that no pay should be good. Even now, because it had not been given in the past. You remember that was one of the arguments they put forward in 406 that like how are you going to, you know, back pay these people? Yeah, how are you going to sustain this exactly unfair, blah, blah, blah. And he’s like, but you are missing something here. It makes no sense to back pay, because the work conditions are new. Therefore, it’s a new situation. Therefore, new pay has been introduced, things are just evolving in tandem with each other. And it’s also normal for people to get paid work.
Dr G 45:35 Well, but surely it would also be normal for them to get paid for their regular summer military gig.
Dr Rad 45:41 No, no, that is not the case. Because he’s like, it’s stupid. That pre that people who serve previously and like volunteered for it are upset now. That is stupid. And that is because they got six months of the year off. They got to go home and see their families and farm and stuff. These guys aren’t getting that. That is why they’re getting pay. Okay? You can’t have everything. Don’t get greedy. Now soldiers are happy to receive pay. And in return, they should be okay with being away for a little longer just to touch.
Dr G 46:16 little icicles hanging off their moustaches. Yeah.
Dr Rad 46:19 And this is just oh my god, this this just seems like something that someone today could easily say. It wouldn’t be right, if they got paid for a year service, but only worked half. What. So he’s basically saying like, if we introduce military pay, but still allow them to go home for six months for years, they’d effectively be getting paid for like a year’s work, but they’d only be working for half. That’s what he’s suggesting. Now, I know what you’re gonna say logically, why not just pay them a little less and pay them for six months? Don’t get carried away with ledger have
Dr G 46:49 they considered having a two levee system where they’ve got the summer army and the winter army and they rotate and people who want to get paid sign up for the winter army. And people who just like to Swan around in the sunshine, volunteer for some of military work.
Dr Rad 47:09 You know, I texted you. I’m at a point in the speech where Appius is getting uncomfortable talking about money,
Dr G 47:15 classics, patrician, it’s
Dr Rad 47:16 crass. It’s mercenary and crass.
Dr G 47:19 It’s time to move on to something else. This this point is not well, with the crowd.
Dr Rad 47:24 His point is that we shouldn’t really be talking about money, because quite frankly, this is a civic issue. You’re a citizen of this place, are you not? And therefore why are we even paying you? Yeah, it makes you seem like a mercenary.
Dr G 47:38 Yeah, you’re just doing your civic duty. Exactly.
Dr Rad 47:40 Defending Rome, so
Dr G 47:41 we can all enjoy it. Yeah.
Dr Rad 47:42 Why are we even bothering to nice to you? We are the state we are the government. It’s just a fact. That room should not have started the war or should just get on with it. Like room would, which is awesome, obviously. And get it over with ASAP. I mean, we all know that Rome is going to win. Now. That’s a very convenient argument. Because quicker get this done, the less we have to pay. It’s great for him to say well, clearly Rome should have started wherever there’s gonna be an issue. But we have so we’ve just got to continue. Surely, surely the Romans are fired up about they surely they want to finish the war. For that reason alone. All of Greece was happy to fight for 10 years over one woman. What is room’s excuse at the moment? The Romans aren’t even in that bad situation. They’re barely away from home. They is really close and it’s all going to be over really soon. Stop you’re complaining.
Dr G 48:47 I love how he’s brought in a reference to the Trojan War. Well, literally the Peloponnesian War was right there.
Dr Rad 48:54 I think it’s just you know that the Roman historians are leaning into the parallels to the Trojan War. They’re making this their epic. There
Dr G 49:02 is no woman and I’m disappointed because we don’t get to talk about women in ancient Rome enough right now. That’s true.
Dr Rad 49:10 That teasing us seven times strategy seven times he has started a war. Oh, we’re actually in counting will Appius Claudius Okay, all right. Yeah. They never mean it when they forged truces clearly, because otherwise, why would they that multiple wars. Yeah,
Dr G 49:29 I mean, the six other wars explains that.
Dr Rad 49:31 They keep invading Roman territory. They keep writing Roman fields rude. They was behind the betrayal of Fidenae. And the Roman settlers who were killed there and the murder of the Roman and voice Oh, yes, we’re going all the way back there. Yeah, they tried to turn all of a true warrior against Rome. And to this day, they wants nothing more than for Rome, to be wiped from the face of the earth. Well, they only just recently after all, were rude to the Roman ambassadors. Ambassadors don’t know why but in in in there and threaten them with death. Clearly
Dr G 50:12 also rude. Yeah, clearly. Yeah,
Dr Rad 50:15 right we should be giving 110% When fighting such utter bastards, they is in a vulnerable spot room needs to take advantage of this, they’re surrounded Dr. G, now is the time they’ve not been able to harvest or farm because after all, this whole situation has been going on for a while now. So if room withdraws, of course, Veii will just kind of go back to plundering Roman territory because they need the resources. So Rome would not really get out of a war if they backed off now, but rather would find war moved into their own territory.
Dr G 50:56 Now, for all the Appius Claudius actually kind of is is a terrible human. Yeah,
Dr Rad 51:01 he makes some good points there that that’s a good point. And he also points out, how would the soldiers feel about this situation? After all the siege stuff they’ve built after all the defences, so much effort? Are they just going to leave all of that behind until the next season? Which makes me think that, you know, we were talking about before that it must be like, close today, and this stuff isn’t really at risk if they leave? I
Dr G 51:25 think so. Like they’ve set up some equipment already, I think, yeah. Yeah. That would be my assumption. And if they’ve already started a siege process, yeah. Then they would have set up some land works for that. Exactly.
Dr Rad 51:38 Yeah. Apologies to all the military historians out there. I know that we don’t do a great job. Mind you, maybe Livy could do better do? Well,
Dr G 51:47 I think this is the thing is that we’re reading Livy, Livy has whatever extensive knowledge that he might have about certain areas, but I’m not sure that military matters unnecessarily. He’s strong suit. And also, as an annalistic. Historian, he does tend to story eyes. That’s true. That’s true. I mean, that’s not really word. But you know what I mean, Storify. The military encounters in such a way that you don’t seem to have a sense of confidence about where things were anyway, necessarily,
Dr Rad 52:17 history, this is true. He has given me no geographic markets. So in other words, the soldiers would be upset because they’ve gone through all this effort constructing all this stuff, and they’re just gonna have to leave it there. And then do all that hard work all over again. Next season, why not just stay in place and push on until it’s all over? And what else might a delay lead to? Right now, the Etruscans not willing to help Veii. But what if their feelings change over time? The trust can so mad right now about that whole anonymous King issue. But what if negotiations change that down the road, there were a lot of things to consider, and a lot of potential repercussions people. The tribune of the plebs are just being weak. It’s like dealing with a sick person who needs a strict routine in order to get better. But the tribune of the plebs, they want you to follow a path where you’re just going to make your illness worse, and lasts longer, and perhaps make it more serious by giving in to requests for food and drink, when clearly what you need is nothing, no sustenance do not feed this problem. He’s not done yet.
Dr G 53:32 Like always building up to something maybe
Dr Rad 53:37 even putting aside the actual war, it is important for Roman soldiers to get used to persevering to sticking around until the job is done. And not leaving when victory is close. Just because you’re off the clock.
Dr G 53:52 You guys haven’t been trying hard enough.
Dr Rad 53:55 Well, he’s saying, Are you suggesting that the Roman soldiers are not tough enough to endure winter? I think you’ll find that they are. The Romans are the toughest. The soldiers would also be embarrassed to find that people thought they were so weak, they couldn’t handle a little snow. Room also needs to consider its wider reputation. Oh, yeah, here we go. If they become known as those people who weren’t see a siege through well, they’re hardly scary.
Dr G 54:30 It’s just going to encourage the Volscii. Yeah, and the Aequians and the Sabines. Yeah. And anybody else who’s ever had a problem?
Dr Rad 54:39 Exactly. So the tribune of the plebs. If you Look at it from this perspective, Dr. G and I am looking at from Appius Claudius perspective, are really on the side of the enemies of Rome. They want to throw they have a lifeline here that people have they would be thrilled to hear of internal problems. was in Rome and in its army, they right now seems unified, you know, in its own little way. After all, they even have a king. Don’t worry about even breaking a sweat. And that’s without help from the Etruscans may remind you one small. Normally, Romans who run away from battle would be beaten to death with a cudgel. But the Romans are so used to hearing outrageous things from the tribune of the plebs that they are thinking about this possibility, even though technically it’s about betraying room. The tribune of the plebs only need to take that final step and basically poison the army and get them to turn on their commanders. Wow. Yeah. That’s, that’s it. That’s the next this is the article. They’re gonna go to the army. They’re going to turn them against the commander. So that’s the way this is headed.
Dr G 55:54 Okay, so this is some strong rhetoric coming through from Appius. Claudius. Yeah. Not only are the tribune of the plebs, obstructive, but they are now enemies of the state. They are hostis. Absolutely. In the Latin way of talking about these things. Intense. Yep. Liberty
Dr Rad 56:13 in Rome. Dr. G, clearly means that there is no respect no respect at all, not for the Senate, not for the magistrates, not for the laws, not for ancestral customs, not for institutions of the Senate, or military discipline. This is where it’s led us. It’s madness. I tell you madness.
Dr G 56:35 You might as well fold up shop and I will just die right here because it would be a faster way to go than the slow death that they’re setting us
Dr Rad 56:43 up for. Yeah. Have you relieved to hear that Appius Claudius is finally done.
Dr G 56:49 In the back corner of the forum, a whole bunch of patricians are being like (clapping) and tribunes of the plebs after one side being like,
Dr Rad 56:59 exactly. Now, all of this rhetoric all of these points, which we admit not all are bad. Some have some logic to them, but some of them whoo boy. Some
Dr G 57:08 of them are very strong appeals to emotion. Yeah.
Dr Rad 57:12 He is doing well, though, against the tribunes of the playoffs. Okay. He’s his speech is obviously quite persuasive.
Dr G 57:23 To patricians, all right.
Dr Rad 57:26 Well, this is the thing. The speech was probably that speech was probably given in the Senate, I would say, but we get the feeling that he’s giving similar types of speeches to anyone who will listen but anyway, he’s doing quite well. He’s, I think, causing definitely enough confusion that the plebeians are like, hang on a second. Wait a minute. Wait, just a cotton-picking second. And then something went wrong at Veii. Oh, yeah. So as we know, there is nothing that brings the Roman people together more than when they’re facing an external enemy. This is pretty much what happens. This gives Appius the edge over the tribune of the plebs, and like his documents, and that sort of thing, because something goes wrong on the very front. And the patricians and plebeians start to be more unified and their purpose because they understand that we need they need more energy at this siege. Allow me to tell you what was happening at Veii. So the soldiers had apparently pushed forward the terraces towards the town. Now I can only mean that this is some sort of siege equipment that is getting very close to Veii itself,
Dr G 58:41 move the turret.
Push the wooden rabbit further.
Dr Rad 58:49 Yes, to the point where the mantles have this terraces practically touching the woods. Now, for anybody who’s even familiar with like mediaeval siege warfare, I think you could kind of picture the kind of equipment that they are using here. It’s the same kind of terminology you sometimes get coming through for like castles and the kind of siege equipment you get for that as well. And that’s Mantlet. So basically designed to protect any attackers from projectiles that might be thrown at them. So let’s get a little bit set, you know, come up in the middle. From like a death, it’s hard to describe efficacy, just take my word for it. Okay,
Dr G 59:21 so this is allowing the advancing force of the siege Yes, to go forward to go forward. Yeah, be somewhat protected, get a little bit closer and hopefully, do something that’s going to disturb that wall or disturb the defenders on the wall.
Dr Rad 59:37 Yeah. And they seem to be doing pretty well. Okay. However, the army focusing very much on building up their siege equipment. So you know, they’re working hard constructing as much as possible during the day, but they neglected to watch them overnight. And then all of a sudden, very Roman seems really stupid. Maybe they thought they were too big. I don’t know. But all All of a sudden one evening the people have a suddenly throw open the case a huge number. So just rush out with torches set fire. Yeah, set fires are all the siege equipment, and just in like an hour, all their work building up the terrorists and the magnets and all that kind of stuff went up in flames, which tells me that it was wooden or something. Plus Romans died trying to put the fire out. Oh, trying to save them. Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Dr G 1:00:28 This is bad news. Yes.
Dr Rad 1:00:30 And this is the news that really gives Appius the edge because obviously the Romans find out about this. Everyone feels very sad. The Senate is feeling very worried. They’re like, what if we have to continue to deal with this, this questioning of the military pay? What if the tribune of the plebs decide to try and use this development to their advantage bragging that the you know, the war if it was all falling apart anyway, like, who knows what they’re going to do with it? Suddenly, men in equestrian circles, but who did not have horses from the state?
Dr G 1:01:05 Oh,
Dr Rad 1:01:05 this specific group
Dr G 1:01:06 very true equestrians that got their own horses. Yes.
Dr Rad 1:01:10 came to the Senate. They had had a meeting, apparently, the meeting of the men who are equestrians but don’t have horses from the state have their own horses,
Dr G 1:01:20 these the Knights who say Ni,
Dr Rad 1:01:23 they had talked and they decided they were going to volunteer to serve using their own horses. Well, that’s very generous of those into chests, the Senate is overcome, and gives them an official vote of thanks. The people hear what is happening in the farm and the city of Rome, and they rushed to the Curia because the plebs don’t want to be outdone by these jerks on horses, the infantry now want to do something special to and they declare, we will go anywhere, kill anyone, whatever you want, just tell us we’ll do it. And if Veii is that location, well, then by God, we will stay at our person until that city is taken. They’re
Dr G 1:02:08 like the problematic second child who feels like they never really had enough of dad’s love
Dr Rad 1:02:13 Exactly. The Senate. I actually think this is probably a high point, I don’t think they’ve ever been so ridiculously happy that they’ve got people throwing military service and saying we’ll do whatever it takes whatever you want. They were so happy that it couldn’t even just be taken care of with like a formal vote of thanks. They did not formally call the plebs into the Curia to hear their response. Instead, the senators overflowed onto the steps outside the Curia. They’re going into the
Dr G 1:02:46 street doctor. They’re thanking them in person. Each
Dr Rad 1:02:50 Senator personally called out or signed to the people how happy they were get out the party poppers stone for a celebration. The general message of the senators is that room was a blessed place. And because of the kinds of people that live there, they were going to live forever. No one was ever going to be ruined because they were unified. They were getting along the Senate, just lovely equestrians, the Senate has lots of opinions. The Senate has left this day. You knew what you have outdone even us the patricians for being awesome, sweet, kind and well intentioned, because I’m happy. And basically, this is where this all kind of starts to wrap up. For me. The patricians and the plebs all are out there, crying from happiness together until the Senate say this is really nice and all but like, time is money.
Dr G 1:03:44 It’s been nice at all. I’ve just got this vision of senators, like doing slightly awkward hugs of plebeians. Kind of like I don’t know when you love to wash. Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:03:53 well, like just like getting out like a finger like an index finger and like poking them on the forehead and be like, BOOP.
Dr G 1:03:59 you’re so cute.
Dr Rad 1:04:03 So what this means structure chain, and this is how four three kind of wraps up for me. The military tribunes, obviously, you need to hold a formal assembly to just thank everyone and tell them that the Senate will forever remember and treasure, this display of loyalty to the state. And they voted that all of these new volunteers who are not technically required to serve at this point should be paid.
Dr G 1:04:28 Oh my God,
Dr Rad 1:04:29 I know. And the equestrians were also granted money allowances making this the first time that the cavalry began to serve on their own horses but received money from the state for their expenses. It’s like an expense account kind of thing, you know, reimbursing them for that kind of stuff. So these new volunteers they went today. They were on such a high that not only did they very quickly rebuild what had been lost, but they built even more. So the Roman They were pumping out the provisions with so much enthusiasm. It was scary because the Romans back home. After seeing everything that’s been happening, they wanted to take just the best asbestos care ever have the best asbestos army that ever lived. The end.
Dr G 1:05:16 Wow. Okay, so some some queries. And so when we’re talking about building siege equipment, yeah, in this period, yeah. This is vast amounts of manual labour,
Dr Rad 1:05:30 you underestimate how much happiness can help.
Dr G 1:05:34 But even in the original compliment of the siege equipment that they’re trying to put together. Yeah, living makes it sound like there’s quite a lot. All right, like there’s substantial fires, people die and trying to put out those fires to save that equipment. Yeah, so you have to keep in mind that we’re talking about cutting down trees. Right, that’s labour, turning it into things that’s labour, making sure that it really works. Turning trees into things, I think that I made the Siege Tower completely out of wood. Incredible. All it will take is one fiery arrow disaster. And all of that is happening. So they denuding parts of the landscape in the area,
Dr Rad 1:06:14 which I do not care for. No. Well,
Dr G 1:06:17 I mean, it’s necessary. It’s to be expected. There’s lots of forest, I would assume much more in Italy, then than there is now. But the sheer manpower required for all of that is phenomenal. So the idea that happiness would replace all of that lost equipment within the year. It’s
Dr Rad 1:06:36 not just happiness, it’s tears of joy and song.
Dr G 1:06:41 They sang well, they work because I’m happy. Look, I understand that there was some joy, but the senators themselves aren’t doing any of the work. It’s all the volunteers. So the organisation of the manpower is substantial. Yeah. You think that the logistics of that getting them all out there getting that work done building rebuilding everything, essentially, yeah, turning up to that encampment for the first moment to realise that you’re looking at a Bert field, essentially, of the things that used to exist. Like, this is tough work. I
Dr Rad 1:07:15 think getting caught up on technicality.
Dr G 1:07:18 I’m just trying to make this. Give it a sense of maybe if this is real. Okay, let’s say where we’re in a period of time where people are doing this kind of stuff. Whoa, what is
Dr Rad 1:07:29 If it’s real? If it’s real? I didn’t just spend the last hour talking to you on the assumption this was fiction!
Dr G 1:07:34 Well, I know. And in the sense that this is a historical podcast, yeah. Obviously, something happened in the past. Was it this? I have some questions? Anyway, Look,
Dr Rad 1:07:46 to be fair, okay. And this is where I’m going to let you off the hook a little bit. I just enjoyed watching you try and put it together. He doesn’t actually give me a timeframe. Okay. So when he says that this is what happened, he may not have meant it happened all in this one year, he might have meant that this is something that because of what happened in this year, this is what was possible. So this is what the Romans will achieve. Eventually. All right.
Dr G 1:08:11 I think this dovetails nicely into the small amounts of source material I currently have available.
Dr Rad 1:08:17 I hope it’s another long speech from Appius Claudius,
Dr G 1:08:20 certainly not. I can reassure you on that excellent. I have died or a stimulus who gives us a few of the characters and military tribunes. Okay, get some of the names, right doesn’t get the number, right. That’s fine.
Dr Rad 1:08:34 Well, I don’t know that we can say anybody like me,
Dr G 1:08:37 but then we also have this side quest, if you like, of what is happening with Camillus
Dr Rad 1:08:45 Ah, yes. Oddly, doesn’t doesn’t get mentioned in Livy.
Dr G 1:08:49 at all. And for me, this was the most exciting part of this year because we have somebody mentioned who’s going to become really quite significant. So yeah, I’m not gonna give the game away about
Dr Rad 1:09:00 why but he’s definitely like up there and like a career leanness kind of level. Yeah,
Dr G 1:09:04 he’s gonna Yeah, watch this space. Camillus is gonna be a thing. Yeah. So Camillus comes to us for the first time. So I’m gonna start off with things that I like to do, which is delving into the name. Yes, please do. So his full name, as far as we understand it is Marcus Furius, son of Lucius Spurius, grandson of Spurius Camillus. Which means that his father was Lucius Furius. And his grandfather was Spurius Furius. Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:09:37 The T shirt paid off.
Dr G 1:09:40 Never let it be forgotten that we were there first, Spurius Furius. Yeah. So there were there are a couple of Spurius Furii out there, yeah. So it’s important to you know, hone in on who was who? Yes. And really we’re talking about the father being likely to have been Lucius Furius Medullinus, okay, so he was a military tribune with consular power in 432 it’s gonna tear
Dr Rad 1:10:06 I recognise that name so always makes me think of gold medals. He’s
Dr G 1:10:10 won a lot of them. He has also in 425, and 420. So a relatively substantial career in that top job shop. And then we’ve got the grandfather Spurius Furius Medullinus Furus. Ooh, yeah, that’s quite an name. And if it’s this guy, he was the consul in 464 and the suffect in 453. So we’ve got this lovely family lineage that relates to the Furii and particularly our favourite Spurius Furius, who have come up in previous episodes, obviously. And then we have this guy Camillus, who’s related into this group. Yeah. Not the first son. He’s prime and Marcus, his father’s name is Lucius. So he’s presumably a second or third or fourth child, not the first one, always called the first one after yourself in that really weird Roman way. So we’ve got that. And then we have Plutarch’s the Life of Camillus. Right, which is thematic in its nature. So I get very little about 403 specifically, I would say it should be here. It’s a big year, clearly, but I mean, commercially,
Dr Rad 1:11:23 because of big speech. Mostly it is a speech.
Dr G 1:11:27 But, uh, let us give you a bit of a taste of things to come with Camillus through Plutarch. So he seems to be an incredible figure. And he wins many and great successes.
Dr Rad 1:11:43 I expect nothing less from a Furii
Dr G 1:11:45 Five times he will be chosen dictator. Wow. Four times he will celebrate a triumph. That’s pretty good odds. And he will also become known as the second founder of Rome.
Dr Rad 1:11:59 Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Haven’t we already had a guy?
Dr G 1:12:04 That’d be like that. You arguing with poor talk right now? I have it.
Dr Rad 1:12:12 Apologies, please check.
Dr G 1:12:13 So these are the sorts of things to keep in mind. We’ve got this sort of foreshadowing of of this great Camillus figure. And it’s not at all clear about 403 Except that he’s listed as the sensor. Yes, some materials.
Dr Rad 1:12:32 Ah, yes. And this is where attacks comes in, does it not?
Dr G 1:12:37 Well, this is where we get some odd things. So this idea of like, what is this censorship? And what is going on with that?
Dr Rad 1:12:48 profound questions all Yeah. And
Dr G 1:12:51 apparently the the ideas that are connected to the censorship, forcing unmarried people to get married
Dr Rad 1:13:01 or attend attacks them? Well, no, wait for it. Okay. No, no,
Dr G 1:13:04 don’t jump ahead like that. Okay. So the unmarried need to get their marriage on? Uh huh. And apparently this is because there’s been so many wars and Rome has lost so many good men. Well, yeah, there was a lot of widows and widowers around,
Dr Rad 1:13:19 you might say, actually, that all we need is a few good men.
Dr G 1:13:26 Indeed, and Camilla is going to make sure it happens because there needs to be more children. Obviously, Rome cannot succeed if it does not reproduce. It needs its own men. needs little baby Romans a
Dr Rad 1:13:38 battlefield of a woman. It’s not yes to give birth in a time with new medicine. Yeah.
Dr G 1:13:44 And you can imagine, you know, the women are sitting around being like,
well, I lost Marcus last year. And then this year, it doesn’t Look like Lucius is gonna make it through. I’ve
Dr Rad 1:13:55 godammn sandals, who just offer no protection against the cold.
Dr G 1:14:00 He came back and he didn’t have any toes. What
Dr Rad 1:14:03 am I gonna do with this sweater? It ain’t gonna fit my next husband?
Dr G 1:14:08 I just don’t know Cecilia. I just don’t know if I can keep getting married like this. I frankly, sick
Dr Rad 1:14:16 of this all these letters
Dr G 1:14:20 So, you know, it’s tough out there for Roman women in general. And you know, this now new requirement, apparently you because you gotta get married. Right. So that’s it. And then the other thing that seems to be associated with the censorship, which seems particularly cruel, is the taxation on orphans.
Dr Rad 1:14:38 I was waiting to say much.
Dr G 1:14:41 Because guess what orphans? Yeah, you have not suffered enough in this life having lost your parents. In fact, there needs to be a specific orphan tax because if you don’t pay your way, no one will.
Dr Rad 1:14:56 I’m presuming this is to fund the pay and also the equestrian stipend. But is this because there are so many orphans. Now, it
Dr G 1:15:07 seems to be the case that the the one to do with the unmarried people is like, right, you’ve got to reproduce. And the one with the orphans is you were brought into this world you weren’t given life. You must continue on, and you must stay away. Yeah. And just because your relatives aren’t around to do the good job of paying the tax that the state needs doesn’t mean you get away with
Dr Rad 1:15:28 it. Toddlers, this is not a state where you get a free ride. Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 1:15:33 Yeah, you can pay in grain. That’s fine. You must pay. Wow,
Dr Rad 1:15:38 ha, I saw that. And I was like, that must be wrong. But I knew that you were going to be looking into it sounds like I’m going to ignore it. Because it just seems weird and cruel.
Dr G 1:15:48 It does seem weird. And I don’t fully understand it. And I feel like maybe I’ll source material hasn’t quite wrapped its head around why that would be useful or good or necessary. Certainly with the unmarried, Roman population. They’re kind of like you’re alive and you have a duty to create life. That’s kind of why you’re alive. So it’s a very sort of, like, evolutionary determinist perspective being like, Wait, you’re here. You better get on with it. Yes, that’s what you’re here to do.
Dr Rad 1:16:14 You’re here. You’re not queer. Get used to it. Yeah,
Dr G 1:16:15 you must. And you shall, and we will find a way to make you married. Yeah. And then the orphan stuff? I don’t know, that’s just a bit baffling.
Dr Rad 1:16:23 Is that a way of forcing people to adopt the orphans?
Dr G 1:16:28 I don’t know. The tax seems to fall upon the orphan themselves? I don’t know. Yeah, I
mean, that’s the thing. I don’t understand wandering up to adults being like, Please adopt me. For the tags, and what
happens to an orphan if you can’t afford to pay the tag? I
Dr Rad 1:16:44 know, it’s so strange. Sorry, Camillus, covering himself with Real Glory with that policy. Yeah. So
Dr G 1:16:51 I can’t wait to see what he does next.
Dr Rad 1:16:53 I mean, the idea that this might be slightly anachronistic somehow or something like that, it kind of makes sense, because obviously, some of the details that have been brought up in my account, I’ve definitely questioned as maybe being anachronistic, like the idea that there was that specific punishment for Roman men who were cowardly in battle, you know, the idea that they got beaten with a casual, like some sort of penalty or something. We’re not really short, like, it is true. The Romans did take military discipline seriously, particularly later on, which is where we have records of it, you know, coming through sources like I believe Cicero, I believe there are references and Tacitus for those particulars. Polybius. And that sort of thing to this sort of idea that the command might somehow indicate this person has to be set upon beaten. Yeah, and that sort of thing. But we don’t know how far it goes back. And certainly I think the question is, does it get back this one? And as as often is the case? The answer is generally no. Well, we don’t know. We don’t know. Probably not. Just because as we’ve talked about numerous times with the military pay aspects, we just don’t really show how formal any of this stuff is. So the idea that you would have, I mean, you don’t have a formal standing army. I mean, sure. This is meant to be the rumblings of that starting, but you don’t have it. This is just a special occasion kind of thing. Surprise. So the idea that you would have formal punishments for this kind of thing is a bit iffy. I mean, it’s like it’s not out of the question, obviously, because Rome is at war a lot. So maybe there are penalties. But the idea that this was like some sort of official accepted punishment, that’s what people are questioning. Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. And certainly, definitely, this idea of equestrians receiving some sort of reimbursement or pay and that sort of thing, which again, does happen later. There are some issues that we will talk about. I mean, it actually gets, I think, quite technical, the whole idea of the cavalry. This doesn’t seem likely for this time period, as we’ve talked about, and this whole military pay thing. And certainly, these taxes, I think are meant to be feeding into this, but so none of it kind of adds up. Yeah, we’ve
Dr G 1:19:17 got more questions than answers, another classic partial historians.
Dr Rad 1:19:23 All we can say is unlikely. I mean, it’s certainly all of these things will be introduced, for sure. There definitely will be because obviously the equestrians are essentially becoming like the cavalry. Right.
Dr G 1:19:37 And I think there’s that thing where it’s like stuff has to be mentioned for the first time at some point. Sure. Yeah. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the first time that it becomes regular rise.
Dr Rad 1:19:49 Yeah. And the cavalry when they were getting paid, did get paid more because they do have more expenses, I guess, and they are also looked at as being pretty special. But yeah, the idea that Rome has a specific cavalry and a specific infantry and they’re each trying to outdo each other is the Senate. I vote no. Yeah, it all seems a little a little immature. A little bit early than Yes. At least trying to figure out where the money’s coming from.
Dr G 1:20:20 Orphans. Yeah, exactly. We’re gonna fund the whole thing on orphan
Dr Rad 1:20:24 lately logical to pay for rich people’s horses. Putting a tax on it. Just when you don’t room couldn’t get any more conservative.
Dr G 1:20:31 Weird. Yeah. All right. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:20:35 Okay. But that’s I think that is all I have.
Dr G 1:20:39 Okay, in which case, I think it’s time for the partial pick.
Dr Rad 1:20:44 I’m looking forward to this.
All right, Dr. G, tell us what the Partial Pick is all about?
Dr G 1:20:52 Well, there are 50 Roman Eagles up for grabs, across five categories Ding Ding!. And so we will see how the Romans score against those categories, the first category being military clout.
Dr Rad 1:21:07 Okay, I feel like there’s some good and some bad, they are besieging. But then their stuff gets burnt.
Dr G 1:21:15 It was all going great where they got Whoa, and they
Dr Rad 1:21:19 get more reinforcements. And they seem to be more numerous and better than ever before. And morale is high. So I don’t know how you want to take that.
Dr G 1:21:25 Um, I mean, on the balance five, okay. Although
Dr Rad 1:21:29 I will just point out that you gave them a six are actually conquering something last week. I feel like maybe, maybe a four, you know, like, like, you know, like they’re asking a
Dr G 1:21:41 consistency from me that I don’t possess, I might vote solely on my feelings.
Dr Rad 1:21:46 Oh, I think that’s clear. All right. Okay. Well, let’s maybe say for Shall we like, because like, it’s, you know, it’s consistent. I
Dr G 1:21:53 can go lower? No,
Dr Rad 1:21:56 that’s ageing. And they haven’t been technically defeated. They just lost some siege equipment. And seemingly some people, you know, they
Dr G 1:22:02 lost some people burnt to death. Well, yeah. But that
Dr Rad 1:22:05 was to see the siege equipment wasn’t in warfare, per se.
Dr G 1:22:09 I mean, you telling me that saving the siege equipment during an act of war is not somehow part of warfare.
Dr Rad 1:22:15 It’s not like actual battley kind of stuff, you know? Oh, in my we’re gonna disagree on so much. Before moving on.
Dr G 1:22:26 The second category is diplomacy. Well,
Dr Rad 1:22:29 no, no, definitely no diplomacy anywhere. I mean, okay. If we say internally, I guess the fact that our days
Dr G 1:22:39 I don’t think we we’ve agreed that diplomacy is not an internal. I
Dr Rad 1:22:43 was gonna say, I guess if you were saying internal, there’s like, a bit of speechifying going on, but I don’t feel like it’s particularly diplomatic, because it’s Appius. Claudius, you
Dr G 1:22:51 know, diplomacy. They don’t talk to me. They don’t try to talk down the new anonymous King, nothing like that. They don’t send more ambassadors. It’s no. I don’t know what the other six or seven or eight or nine, whatever military tributes are doing. Not talking to anybody being
Dr Rad 1:23:08 scattered. Hide behind a different bush.
Dr G 1:23:13 The category is expansion.
Dr Rad 1:23:15 Yeah.
Dr G 1:23:17 That’s a zero. They’re trying very hard. But I would love to have a love to have not happening now. The fourth category is weird to us. Okay.
Dr Rad 1:23:29 I really hate to say this strategy, but I feel that by Roman standards, maybe we’re seeing a little bit of that from Appius Claudius. You
Dr G 1:23:38 think so? I mean, he’s doing some pretty big speechifying. It’s not military, though. We haven’t really seen that for a while, but it’s not like he’s demonstrating classic Roman manliness.
Dr Rad 1:23:50 I suppose. That’s true. I guess he’s just just playing classic Roman douchebaggery. I was mistaken. Yeah. You know, the
Dr G 1:23:59 classic blinds, issue. Yeah, sort of focus on whatever.
Dr Rad 1:24:04 He’s rhetoric is impressive. But yeah, I don’t know. I agree with you. It’s not perhaps that impassioned. And it’s
Dr G 1:24:10 not like he sort of calls forth the idea of Roman masculinity being on the line here either. Like,
Dr Rad 1:24:17 you know, he does talk about you know, like the masculinity of the soldiers. Yeah, you know, like being put into question how they feel if you feel like you’re calling them a Blissey. I kind of like it. Well,
Dr G 1:24:29 that’s true. Yeah. But is it manly to call another Roman on manly? Well,
Dr Rad 1:24:35 no, he’s I think he’s I think they are. He’s suggesting that they are indeed, but that the tribunes are implying that they are somehow not man enough to take a by saying that they can’t hack it in the winter that they’re too, too pricy to hang out in some proper winter quarters.
Dr G 1:24:52 I think where we might see what we’re tourists, aside from potential for obvious quarters because I feel like that’s kind of it is a bit which is we Yeah, it’s the equestrians coming along and volunteering with their own horses. Oh, yeah. And then and then the plebeians coming along. Not to be outdone by that, yeah. Volunteering into a situation where clearly there’s been a lot of tension about having people out there.
Dr Rad 1:25:16 What else would make the senators shed a tear?
Dr G 1:25:18 Virtus to us coming from below.
Dr Rad 1:25:22 Sounds raunchy?
Dr G 1:25:25 Is that your weird jokes? are you just happy to see?
Dr Rad 1:25:30 Because if I’m a very man, I get turned on by that. All right.
Dr G 1:25:33 I think that’s definitely okay. Yeah, for sure. And maybe potentially higher, because we don’t have to Yeah, this is the moment that seems to bring a very specific class of equestrians out, that we’ve never really encountered before.
Dr Rad 1:25:49 That’s right. The equestrians who are technically part of that order, but have their own horses but the state don’t pay for them yet, but they will pay for them after
Dr G 1:25:55 this. That club that club. Yeah, very specific club.
Dr Rad 1:25:59 It’s very exclusive. Maybe
Dr G 1:26:00 a sixth.
Dr Rad 1:26:01 Okay. All right. And
Dr G 1:26:03 our final category is the citizens score. I
Dr Rad 1:26:07 am so torn on it.
Dr G 1:26:08 It’s a tough time. Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:26:09 they are so clearly being manipulated, again. And they seem to be standing up for themselves at first. And we do have some good Tribune action happening here like the tribunes make some solid points. Mostly, I told you so. But the fact that they are nameless, we don’t even know how many there are. They’re not given a direct speech.
Dr G 1:26:29 And also, their points become completely ineffectual. Yeah, exactly.
Dr Rad 1:26:33 As soon as things start to turn at bay, people are just too concerned about what’s happening.
Dr G 1:26:40 So it’s not great, because, yes, there is the potential for pay. It has been suggested that that’s about to continue for the overwintering. But on the other hand, this seizure is not going well so far. And a whole bunch of them seem to have died trying to save the siege equipment in unruly fire, and
Dr Rad 1:26:56 the rest of them have gone off to serve, which okay, yes, they’re getting paid. But they could be stuck there for a while. We don’t know how long are they going to be there
Dr G 1:27:04 also the orphan tax, not great.
Dr Rad 1:27:08 sorrowfully.
Dr G 1:27:10 And also being told that you just have to remarry all the time. Just keep going, guys. I mean, by why a modern standard that’s a bit harsh by Roman standard, that’s probably people are like, they’re like, Oh, well, I kind of expected that. But
Dr Rad 1:27:23 it’s really just legislating what people expected of you anyway. Yes,
Dr G 1:27:26 yeah. Annoying. But yeah, that will Yeah. Oh,
Dr Rad 1:27:29 wow. Okay, so I feel like it’s maybe a one because the tribunes tried. Oh, yeah. And that’s, that’s all that happened. Yeah. Well, let’s face it, the plebeians ,bless their little cotton socks, which hopefully they’re wearing in their winter quarters under their sandals. They seem very happy to be part of this movement to dedicate themselves in this way. You know, they seem to have been completely won over by everything’s happening, the atmosphere, the vibe, if you will. So I feel like they’re kind of happy. Even sickly that they shouldn’t.
Dr G 1:28:08 As long as they’re happy. We cannot judge them for their own happy. Exactly.
Dr Rad 1:28:11 Yeah. So Look, I feel like it has to be a one. Yeah,
Dr G 1:28:14 I don’t think that condition is great. So what it is all right.
Dr Rad 1:28:18 That’s me instructed me that we have a grand total of 11, which I actually I was expecting more honestly, just goes to show rhetoric it blindsides you, I thought it was going to be much higher, but turns out when all you have is a winker going on and on and on about conservative values. Don’t get high scores.
Dr G 1:28:38 Yeah, Look, I’m like can it be a high school when there’s an obvious Claudius in the mix?
Dr Rad 1:28:44 But you know, and I am pleased about the fact that I am switching douchebag for wanker occasionally now. That’s new. That’s gonna be a new feature. Yeah,
Dr G 1:28:52 yeah, Look, I mean, it’s been a decade it’s time to introduce the
Dr Rad 1:28:57 new century is looming. Oh. Well, thank you very much for tolerating.Appius Claudius’ speech
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Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger - Part 1
Apr 25, 2024
Neil, or ancientblogger as he’s more commonly known, studied ancient history at degree level and then completed an MA in Classical Civilisation. Though he has a full time job he spends most of his time creating content on Instagram, X, YouTube and TikTok – just search for ancientblogger. He also has a website ancientblogger.com and several years ago started what is now the Ancient History Hound podcast, where he covers a wide array of topics from ancient history.
He also gets the chance to volunteer at schools around Brighton where he helps students with Greece and Rome, the latter usually whilst wearing his legionary armour. As his website states – he’s all about ancient history and passionate about making the topic accessible to one and all.”
Special Episode – Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger – Part 1
Neil seems to have found himself in a museum of ancient vases while wearing a tshirt of ancient vases!
What was the landscape of regal Rome like?
There’s no doubt that the topography of ancient Rome was very different to what we are able to see today. With the restraints around archaeological work you can expect in a city that is still as important and vibrant as the capital of Italy, it is partly through evidence on the ground and partly through reading the ancient sources that we can come to grips with what ancient Rome may have been like in its very early iterations.
The Palatine and the Aventine
Neil takes us through the importance of hills in general, in Italy, and for Rome in particular. Romulus has a connection with the Palatine hill and Remus is connected with the Aventine. Neil delves into the details of the wolves in this area including the development of the Lupercalia rites and the significance attached to blood sacrifice in cultivating the meaning of place.
The early pomerium
How did it the sacred boundary of Rome work? Where was it? What were the implications for trying to cross it with early armies? None of these questions can be answered definitely because evidence is thin on the ground archaeologically speaking, but considering later written sources offers some ways into the topic. Looking to read more on this topic, consider Koortbojian, M. 2020. Crossing the Pomerium: The Boundaries of Political, Religious, and Military Institutions from Caesar to Constantine(Princeton University Press)
The Campus Martius
The campus Martius ‘Field of Mars’ was the site of the potential murder of Romulus, Rome’s first king. The area covers a fair amount of land next to the Tiber and we consider some of its historical details.
The Tarpeian Rock
Bound up with the early defence of Rome is the Capitoline Hill where the earliest defences of the city were thought to have been built. We explore the stories that the Romans told about how the rock got its name. This leads into a consideration of how death was treated in respect to place.
The First Bridge over the Tiber
The Pons Sublicius was the first bridge recorded to cross the Tiber. Not only was the bridge of strategic importance, but it was also connection with rituals. Neil takes us through some of the geographical features of the Tiber and how understanding the ancient river is quite a different proposition to understanding the Tiber as it can be observed today.
The Janiculum and the Caelian
The importance of the Janiculum being on the far side of the Tiber as far as the Romans are concerned and the etymological possibilities for the names of some of the hills. The Caelian hill is often overlooked, but maybe it needs to find its spotlight especially for its connection to Numa, the second king.
Things to listen out for:
The Oracle at Dodona
Pallantium in Arcadia (Greece) and Evander
Zeus Xenia and Lyacon
The cultural significance of place and the development of the sacred
The sacrifice of Iphigenia
The clock face approach to understanding where the ancient hills of Rome were
Hercules and Cacus the Giant
Aelius Gellius’ Attic Nights
Miasma, the Ancient Greek understanding of pollution
Map of ancient Rome showing the theorised extent of the Servian Walls built by Rome’s sixth king. The various hills and significant gates (porta) are also indicated. Note that the Janiculum is on the far side of the Tiber from Rome proper. Source Flickr.
Automated Transcript
Automated transcript lightly edited for our wonderful accents and the tricky terms in Latin!
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:03 Hello, and welcome to this special episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:10 And I am Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:13 And we are super thrilled to be joined by a special guest today. Welcome, Neil.
Neil – History Hound 1:21 Hello, thanks very much for having me on and call me special, which is something I haven’t heard for years.
Dr G 1:27 We meant it in a good way.
Neil – History Hound 1:28 Oh I’m sure it was.
Dr G 1:31 So Neil holds a MA in classics and history from Birkbeck, University of London, and is the founder of the popular Ancient Blogger website. And for the last six years, he has also been the host of the Ancient History Hound podcast. So Neil has experience in ancient Roman reenactment. And yes, he does own a suit of legionary armor, we’re so glad you’ve already asked. And he also engages in school outreach programs, bringing the ancient Roman world to life for the next generation. And we’re super thrilled to be sitting down and talking today about a little bit of typography when it comes to ancient Rome, and thinking about exploring place, and particularly going right back into the Regal period of ancient Rome to do it. So welcome, Neil.
Neil – History Hound 2:23 Thank you. Yeah. Just on that, yeah. It’s great to be able to go out and visit schools and do some volunteering work at schools wearing Roman armor. My back does not forgive me. Oh, it’s, it’s great fun. And it does make a difference. Because sometimes, I think if you introduce history, ancient history, to new people in a different way, that whatever age, I think it disrupts some preconceptions, because one of the questions I’ve asked, I asked, when I’ve had guests on my podcast, how did you get into ancient history? And for the most part, people tend to think, Oh, I was translating Cicero at the age of five on my father’s knee. The reality is, I think, I think the one of my guests that she said that it was because she watched ‘The Mummy’. And it can be it can be stuff like that. So it’s so important that people realize that it’s somewhat the sometimes the incidental actions and events in your life that can lead you to becoming really fascinated by a particular subject. And so yeah, so it’s good to be able to try and help with that. This is my only my second time I think I’ve ever been on a podcast that first time was right at the beginning. So I hope I’m a I’m a good guest. Anyway. So thanks again.
Dr Rad 3:33 Well, we’re predisposed to like you is to teachers, I think it’s very admirable that you are volunteering your time in such a way.
Dr G 3:41 Yes, I really hang out with children when they pay me.
Neil – History Hound 3:44 The I got to be honest with you, I don’t know how the teachers do it. I always say that to them. But I get bossed around by a bunch of kids for the best part of sort of three hours or so. I’ve got I’m visiting a school in a couple of weeks. And we’ve got to the invasion of Britain for a bunch of nine year olds, which is easy and difficult, because there’s some really interesting stuff there. But at the same time, it’s quite difficult because you want to avoid the gruesome things, which is fundamental to what the Roman army did. So it’s talking about other areas, and also try and develop extension exercises and things that different kids will do, generally trying to spread the enjoyment of the subject. And that’s something I’ve always tried to do through my podcasts and everything else is just trying to get people who haven’t necessarily come across the topic interested in the topic, and they can feel like an input because after all, ancient history is about people. And we sometimes forget that there. We have our basic emotions, and they would have been exactly the same in antiquity. People got up in the morning, they got worried about their jobs people had, you know, loves their breakups and everything else. And I’m just finishing on that there was an episode. I’m not gonna keep plugging my episode, by the way, but I went I just went I went through the oracle at Dodona. They found a bunch of lead sheets and the where people had written down their questions. And the questions, generally speaking, though, came from all sections of society, including women, which is great, because we don’t have a great deal about that kind of information. But it was questions such as did, should I get a new job? Should I change my career? Should I move? Should one of them we should have an affair? There was quite a lot of can I? Who do I pray to to make my kids better? But these were genuine questions that people have today. So again, it’s about trying to tie in what was ancient or what is modern and sort of shortening the distance between the two? So yeah, there we go. Anyway, we’ll be we’ll be talking about, as he said, about Rome, early Rome, about the typography and how important the typography was, and some of the spaces and areas in that and some of the discussions we can probably have that might throw a different perspective on things. So yep, looking forward to I’ve got my notes, and I’d be doing lots of research. So fingers crossed.
Dr G 5:54 Excellent, excellent. Well, we’re pretty excited to explore this topic. Because as you know, we wrote a book recently on the Roman kings, and we’re really focused on the human character side of it. So very much like you were saying, engaging with school children and bringing that curiosity to the subject. It’s the people factor that really drives a lot of the work that we do as well. And so I think taking this different geographic angle is really interesting way to think about the whole thing from a totally different perspective. So one of the things that stands out when you think about Rome, and usually something that people tend to know about Roman geography, if they know anything at all, is that it’s got seven hills. This is apparently a very special number gets bandied about a lot. But in the traditional foundation story, we have Romulus and Remus, and they start on different hills. And there are only two guys, one of them set up on the Palatine Hill, and one of them set up on the Aventine Hill. And I’m interested in what might be the significance of these two locations? And what could we know about them in this really early period, if anything at all.
Neil – History Hound 7:06 A great start, great place to start. Just before I go any further, I should say I bought your book downloaded onto my Kindle and loved it, it was very, very good. So if anyone’s listening out there, this is not a promo, this is a genuine review, I really enjoyed it, because it does that thing of engaging people. It’s got some really interesting stories in there. And it’s got some interesting questions as well, which I think you should always be able to take away from a book. Before I start on the whole seven hills thing. I want to just cover a few basics about that, because people always think of hills and Rome, but not necessarily in the context of the causality and the importance of them. So to start with having hills was generally a good idea, because hills mean hillside forts, or hill forts, which means you’ve got a very good defensive position. That was a really popular thing. At that time the Etruscans are on it, you can pretty much go anywhere around the Mediterranean people like higher places because they’re easy to defend. You can stick a wall around them, you can stick the important buildings in there, hey, presto, life is good. Where it becomes even more interesting and significant for Rome, or the area which became Rome is the actual location of Rome, because Rome is in Rome, it is at a affordable part of what you could fold the river Tiber around Rome. Why is that important? Well, if you think of the Italian peninsula, the Italian peninsula is quite narrow. It’s around 180 kilometers, which is about 111 miles. I did a bit of working this out. And apparently that’s the distance from Sydney to Mollymook. And it’s also the distance from-
Dr Rad 8:39 Wow, thank you for the local reference.
Neil – History Hound 8:41 That’s right. Yeah, I looked it up. And I always liked spending time on maps. And it’s also if you’re in Chicago, that’s a distance from Chicago to Lafayette. So it’s that it’s quite narrow. And the problem or advantage the Italian peninsula has is down the center of that you’ve got the Appenine Mountains. So generally speaking, if you’re traveling up and down Italy, you either do it on the eastern coast, or you do on the western coast, if you’re doing on the western coast. At some point, you will have to pass and and traverse as it were the Tiber River. So just to just come back to it all. You’ve got a set of defensive positions right next to an incredibly strategic, important location. On that side on the western side of the app and ions. This is a great place. People sometimes ask why did Rome develop? Well, it developed for a number of reasons, and it achieved what it did for a number of reasons. But these were all fundamentally underpinned by the fact of where it was at this great starting location. And if anyone’s listening who has ever played Civilization, the computer game…
Dr G 9:41 I was gonna say I was just having a Civ 6 moment.
Neil – History Hound 9:45 This is this is the ideal start position. This is riverside, plains, hills, your part is great. You’ve even in theory got some salt then nearby, which just makes yeah, the ears will be picking up for anyone who plays civilization on any of the versions. It’s just a great start position. So that was really important. And we’ll come shortly to the whole issue of the Tiber and how that changed and shifted, because that’s really important to understand with early Rome. So you’ve got these these two hills, you’ve got the Aventine and the Palatine. So we start with the with the Palatine. The Palatine is very interesting in the way that it’s handled. mythologically speaking, because it seems to have a prequel because it’s linked to a number of events that happen prior to Romulus and Remus. But it also stitches in nicely with certain points in their lives. It stitches in with sort of Rites of Passage, which I’ll get to shortly. So what you have, apparently, according to I think it’s both Dionysus Halicarnassus and Livy. They both refer to Pallantium. Pallantium was a city or a small settlement whatnot, in Arcadia in central Greece, and it said that originally, Evander and some other Greeks came over, and they settled there. And I completely agree with the point you made in your book, Dionysius of Halicarnassus sees Greeks everywhere. He just did to him everything is greek.
Dr Rad 11:05 I see Greek people…
Neil – History Hound 11:07 Yeah, totally. Totally. He’s, everything is great. Yeah, they just did it with a different language a bit later on. And in Pallantium, you have this initial settlement. Now that ties into Pallantium and Arcadia. Why is that interesting? It’s interesting because Arcadia in the Peloponnese was an odd place. And it had some odd characters, even by the standards of Greek myth. One of them was King Lycaon. Now, people might have heard of him. King like Rome was famous because he did that one thing that you should rarely never ever do. And that’s try it on with a God. He invites Zeus round for lunch, and to test if he’s really that clever, he feeds in human flesh, which is just the more I mean, if you think that’s a bad idea, just a map, just remember that Zeus was Zeus Xenia was an aspect of Zeus whereby he was the god of good good guests and hosts. So incredible amount of importance was based on being a good guest and a good host, presumably serving them human human flesh, bad idea that somewhat sort of crosses the line a bit, and you’re doing it with a God who is in charge of that particular element. Zeus does not take this well, as you might imagine, changes him into a wolf. Now on Mount Lycaon, which is in Arcadia you had as an altar to Zeus, which was an a very long ash altar. And there were lots of things said about it. Without trying to go on a tangent. If you’ve ever listened to episodes on any podcast I’ve done by myself on werewolves, and werewolf myth. That is the that is the point that you always arrive at because people say, well, that’s where you had some sort of wolf based ritual. Now tying that back in, why is that? Why do you tie that in with with Rome? Well, it’s not necessarily just a tangent. It’s because Rome obviously itself has some form of wolf cult, it has a wolf association, and in fact, I think it’s living again who says that Lupercalia the festival where men would run around naked and hit people with goat hide thongs originated from the Lupercal, the cave of the wolf on the Aventine. And in fact, there’s the Lupercalia is a very interesting festival because it seems to be one that existed prior to Romulus and Remus. It probably had them both of them grafted on to it. It has two functions. It seems to be a lustral rite, that is a purification, rite. But it also has some sort of fertility basics to it. So it was one of these, one of these things that by the first century BC/AD, people are trying to work out what it may have looked like but the reality is, like many Roman things, including the Saturnalia, for example, it started out in something very different, and ended up with something quite, quite divorced or estranged from its origin, shall we say? And yeah, so you’ve got this right before Romulus and Remus rock up. When they do. That’s where they, they end up as babies. They’re washed up there in their basket, which was a bit of a trope in antiquity, and also speaks to the point of flooding in ancient Rome, which again, is an important thing that we’ll come to. It’s also the place where they have their auguries, so you may have heard of the story where Remus goes the Aventine and sports has many eagles he can. Romulus does it on the Palatine, he spots more he wins, he gets to found Rome, it’s possibly the location as well of where Remus is killed. What is interesting is there are a number of different myths. We have different versions for it. We have the version where it’s just a straight out fight, because the two brothers are just not going to go on mainly because they’re brothers and that’s what brothers tend to do, though probably not that extreme. But also because their Romans and Romans were very good at civil war. They were very good at infighting and again, we have to remember that many of these myths have been created and worked on in the later periods or several centuries afterwards. We have Fabius Pictor at the end of the third century BC as the first acknowledged Roman historian who’s writing in Greek. And then you have Livy’s and Dionysius of Halicarnassus writing centuries after that. So the reality is they’re getting to a point where they’re trying to work everything out retrospectively, and they’re seeing what what works for them in the modern world. Rome was a place of a lot of inner tension. And we have a lot of civil wars. So of course, it made sense that brothers would fall out and perhaps that would lead to a very nasty end. So there’s a fight there, where Remus ends up, ends up it ends very badly for him. But there’s also an element there of and this is something I’d like to check in with with either of your good selves of the pomerium, of this sacred boundary, because it’s one of those things that sometimes it’s a bit of an overreaction. Romulus killed his brother, because he jumped over his wall. And he mocked his foundations when I’ve been around. I’ve been round to relatives’ new conservatory. I wasn’t that impressed? I was not that impressed with it. But they didn’t murder me. And so why is that? Why, why did you have this extreme reaction? And I think the thing is, we don’t get the context. So foundations, particularly those associated walls had a sacred element to them. You didn’t, You didn’t mock them, it was it would be the equivalent mean there is no great equivalence, but perhaps it would be going to a cultural location where you just considered it on its as a physical presence. So for example, going to Uluru and just go and ask just a sandstone feature without realizing that that is Uluru. That’s that’s much more than what it is. Perhaps, I was thinking of the Statue of Liberty, you know, that’s just a statue. But you don’t get the cultural connotations, or the cultural connotations around those around that wall around that area. What’s that it was incredibly important. And so by Remus mocking it and jumping over, it was committing a real crime, which, you know, instigated that response from Romulus, in that context, it doesn’t sound too bad, again, extreme, but Romanus, as well, as you’ll find, as you well know, wasn’t, wasn’t the most temperate of individuals, he often reacted-
Dr G 16:57 He was not a chill dude, Not a chill guy at all.
Neil – History Hound 17:00 But bearing in mind how he grown up, I mean, his entire existence, and the myth prior to them, it’s basically family members falling out and hurting each other in various ways. So again, this sits within this whole myth of, if you’ve got a relative, it’s gonna go Game of Thrones at some point, it’s as simple as just a case of when rather than if. And yeah, so we have that there’s also and something I always go to, and I, I apologize for this, because I got obsessed with human sacrifice after doing an episode on it. Not so much obsessed. Actually, that’s probably that might get that
Dr G 17:30 That doesn’t sound like a great way to phrase it.
Dr Rad 17:34 I was gonna say, Yeah, I’d stop, right there.
Neil – History Hound 17:36 Yeah, yeah, probably need to rephrase that. The, I found when I started looking and researching it, I saw it occurring more. Now, it occurs a lot in Greek myth, but they try and tidy it up. Great example, is Iphigenia, who’s stolen away by Artemis, when she said to be sacrificed, and that was the idea of substitute sacrifice. So, you know, the Greeks do a kind of a good job of tidying up, though, occasionally leave it right in the open and just move on, such as Achilles in the Iliad, where he gets rid of the Trojan princess, and where Achilles is involved in the sacrifice of effort, you know, at the beginning, and where Achilles’ involved in the sacrifice of Polyxena at the end of the Trojan War. So Achilles, yeah, he wasn’t he wasn’t particularly nice, or he had that element to him. But there is something of an argument to talk about how Remus dying is almost an essential requirement. Now, you can move that out into a conversation about how sometimes when cities were established large settlements, there is an argument that someone was ceremonially sacrificed to ensure the health of it, particularly around walls, Particularly around those liminal spaces. But I don’t want to go into that too much, because I’m not entirely comfortable with the research on that I’m not that well acquainted to it. But when you look at the myth, and obviously, this is where I move fully within the realm of your respective expertise on this, the founding of the of the Republic, well, that was bloodshed that was that you have the death of Lucretia. You also have the death of Brutus’ sons, you have these sort of repeated actions of if you’re going to find something big, if you’re gonna have this big, big setup, it requires a great cost. And that great cost can often be an individual being killed or being moved on as it were. So I think that’s an important thing to notice about the Palatine. But there’s also a good one Plutarch, Plutarch, it gives a more sort of amusing, and I wouldn’t say he’s throwing a bit shade but Remus gets annoyed at Romulus because he thinks he’s cheated.
Dr G 19:38 I love that version of the story. That’s my favorite one.
Dr Rad 19:41 I say I guess. Make sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Neil – History Hound 19:46 Yeah, it’s a bit of a strange competition. It’s like me going right? That we’re going to win a car. The three of us gonna win a car, you just got to think of the highest number, but we’ll say in order and I get to go last. I’m not saying one. I’m just gonna say the highest and yeah, so it’s also interesting as vultures will often we have associations of eagle with ancient Rome, particularly with Tarquin when he gets his cap snatched by an eagle. But these were vultures, which again, is it? People may not know that much, but a trivia impress your friends stand stand your relatives. So we have that the so that’s where we come to the Palatine. It was obviously pretty much where Rome is founded, and it becomes an incredibly important location. And before I go to the Aventine. Have I missed anything on that you think? Or is there anything?
Dr G 20:33 No I don’t think so. I think there’s something quite interesting about the idea of the blood sacrifice as a necessity, in terms of like establishing a sacral border. And what that means for other rituals that the Romans then participate in later on, for sure. And I think this extended narrative that has a way of connecting Rome back to Greece is something that Greeks across the ancient world would be very keen about, for sure.
Neil – History Hound 21:09 Yeah. Yeah, it’s very difficult to really understand Rome without considering it through the filter of Greece and the Mediterranean was a real cultural melting pot, people were constantly exchanging ideas, cultures, you had Greeks in the south of Italy, and Magna Grecia, the Etruscans, who were heavily influential on Rome, big Greek fans. In fact, if you’re, I guarantee, if you’re listening to this, and you have a favorite Greek vase, the chances are, it was found in an Etruscan tomb. That’s why it survived.
Dr G 21:37 They did love that stuff. It’s everywhere there.
Neil – History Hound 21:39 Yeah, when I, when I first started studying I just studied all those years ago, I couldn’t get my head around it: But this is an Attic vase, but it was found … what the heck was going to be? How did that work? And obviously, there’s cultural transmission. But the stuff in Athens didn’t necessarily survive as much. Or rather, if you’re looking for, for an object to survive, you need to it needs to be in a tomb or somewhere away from everyone for a long time, and hopefully, dodge tomb robbers, and hopefully gets excavated, and it’s still there in one piece. So the other thing about the Palatine is, when you’re looking at the topography of Rome, it’s quite important to understand where the hills were. Now I’m going to do a really basic thought experiment here, which is either going to fail or do well. You could see the looks on your faces. So when you think of the hills of Rome, the way that I try and do it is a clock face. And sort of, if you think at 12 o’clock, and going up north, you’ve got the field of Mars, that kind of thing. In the center of the clock face, you’ve got the Tiber which winds round from around 11 o’clock disappears around seven o’clock, and intersects with the Forum Boarium, which that’s the main crossing point into Rome. At nine o’clock, you’ve got the Janiculum Hill, at six o’clock, you’ve got the the Aventine. And then you’ve kind of got that the Palatine just to the center just to the right sort of three o’clock ish, if you think of it like that. So if you’re on the Palatine Hill, the Palatine Hill strategically is really important because you’re right dead center on that crossing. So again, it is the most one of the most important hills, I mean, the Capitoline Hill is close as well. So is the Aventine Hill, they’re not going to the Janiculum. These are not far from that that crossing. But if you’re going to choose one first, you’d probably choose the Palatine Hill as being that initial place that you’d want to be. So again, we need to tie this in the myths into the sort of pragmatism of it all. Now I’m going to move to the Aventine. The Aventine Hill is interesting, mainly because it will it has an association with an unnecessary it’s known right, so feel free to laugh with Cacus or Cacus, the giant who Hercules fights, and it’s associated with him because again, you have a Hercules at Rome quite early on was certainly prior to Romulus and Remus. It also became a bit of a staging post, it became an emptying this is where people settle the Latins who were defeated on the anchors the third, fourth, fourth Roman king was given mixed up, a settles in there because he can’t stop them anywhere else. So it’s sort of a bit of a staging post overspill, that’s where people are going to go and live. But the weirdest thing I found out about this when I there was something I hadn’t realized. And again, I’m gonna defer to your expertise on this until the reign of Claudius in the first century AD. It was outside of the City’s pomerium. This was not inside this, it was in there’s discussion, it might have been enclosed by walls, but it wasn’t inside the pomerium. And could you just for a moment just given because I’ve tried to find good definitions of what the pomerium was, but you able to just distill that if you can?
Dr G 24:48 Yeah, so the pomerium is, because it’s the sacral boundary, it is marked out physically in certain ways. But it is is not something that is a physical barrier as such, so there’s marker points for it. We understand it through archaeological evidence. And in order to shift, it becomes a huge deal, because that would be expanding the sacral boundaries of the city. So that has to be a very deliberate choice. The Romans are fundamentally a highly religious and God fearing people. So they don’t make decisions without consulting the gods on any level, it doesn’t really matter what it is. Whether it’s in your home, whether it’s in public, whether it’s going to war, the gods have to approve, they need to feel that sense that their relationship is right with the gods. And so the pomerium is both an indication of what is inclusively believed to be part of sacral Rome, versus what is considered to be foreign and outside. So in the worst case scenario, it’s not the physical walls of Rome that ultimately need to be upheld and defended, although they’re very important, but it’s making sure that that sacral boundary is never violated. So having the Aventine outside of that for a very long time, is conducive to the sorts of things that you’re saying in terms of people coming into Rome, when they’re slightly foreign. And they’re considered to be migrant populations, they settle in the Aventine, because they’re allowed to be there. And they’re allowed to worship their own gods there without any problems. As soon as they cross that sacral boundary, it becomes an issue. You can’t have foreign gods inside the pomerium. So everything to do with a multicultural life, which Rome increasingly becomes known for is going to be happening at those bleeding edges around the outside of the pomerium. And so having the Aventine outside of that for a long time super useful and will become super useful for the Struggle of the Orders. And I’m using my flash rabbits.
Dr Rad 26:57 I was I was going to say I remember thinking about this when we were talking about the second secession, the Aventine as a place in that particular narrative where there’ll be an answer like, “You know what, screw you guys, we’re not going to be proud of this thing anymore,” became important.
Dr G 27:13 “We’re just gonna leave this whole town!”
Dr Rad 27:16 “We’re just gonna leave and we’re going to go to the Aventine,” Yeah.
Dr G 27:19 Yeah, “This is not Rome anymore. The Aventine is its own place, thank you very much.”
Dr Rad 27:27 “Yeah, it’s its own thing. It’s got different vibes, guys.”
Neil – History Hound 27:31 I live in Brighton. And there’s a bit of a thing with Brighton because it’s alongside Hove. And I know if you’ve you might have heard of this. But there’s a sort of thing where people, whenever they say, Oh, you live in Brighton people would always say I actually, Hove actually. And “Hove, actually” became its own little thing. It got printed on T shirts. And I didn’t grow up. I didn’t grow up in Brighton, so I’m not aware of it all that much. But when I first started to talk to people, where do you live? Well I live in Brighton but I actually live in Hove. But I’m not saying that to be that person who’s “Actually, Hove,” you know, that sort of thing. So we should get “Aventine, actually” T shirts. There we go.
Dr G 28:08 Yeah, probably!
Neil – History Hound 28:10 The idea of and I did a bit of obviously digging to work out why this might be so why wasn’t wasn’t included. And the general consensus in the sources seems to be no one actually knew. But they had some ideas. And there was a sort of historian who wrote called Aulus Gellius who write “Attic Nights”, which sounds like sounds like saying you find on Netflix and not know if she’d watch in front of your parents. I don’t know. It’s not quite sure when there’s and he said he wasn’t sure he said there are a number of reasons however, he quoted Messala who was a consul back in 53 BC, and apparently according to Messala he said that it was because of ill owned birds. The point of when that augury was taken.
Dr G 28:52 Right from the beginning Remus was wrong.
Neil – History Hound 28:55 Yeah, it was it was abandoned, and the whole hill that he did, and somehow that that had some association with it. But there is probably a more practical reason for this. And for this, I need to go back to that clock face I did earlier. So as you remember, you’ve got Field of Mars around 12 o’clock. And then you’ve got around nine o’clock, you’ve got the Tiber, and then you’ve got the Aventine at around sort of six o’clock. Now, when it came to moving troops around the field of Mars was where you marshal troops early on in Rome. At that point, Rome was obviously conducting military activities in a number of locations, but a lot to the south. If you take your soldiers from that point south, you face a big problem. Because if you have to cross the pomerium, as I understand it, and again, this is this is something I’m not entirely aware of. You’ve got to do a bunch of sacrifices and general rituals to cross over the pomerium. So you’d be it’s a bit like when I suppose in some cities where you have a zone where you have to you can’t you know, drive between these certain hours or whatnot or your car needs to be this type of setup or perhaps it’s just pedestrianized, so you need to cross it, you’d be crossing it twice. And that could really forestall an army because it could take time. However, if the Aventine wasn’t in the pomerium, then you can kind of take your men down the side of the eastern bank of the Tiber. And they don’t have to worry about that. And they don’t want to go the other routes because the two other routes from the Field of Mars if there was a pomerium immediately to the South would mean well, you’ve got across the Tiber, well, you can’t cross the Tiber south, you’ve got to go all the way north and finding a decent crossing point. If you want to go east you’ve got to loop north and east around the hills. It that that when you’re moving a large number of individuals, and again the logistics the Roman army is always an interesting thing, perhaps more so than what they actually did. On the battlefield though (I never said that). You move the slowest move the slowest thing in your army is the fastest you move. And often this will oxen, oxen, don’t sprint, they don’t move very quick. So you could lose a good day or two just making that progression, albeit if you have to cross the pomerium. If the pomerium isn’t to the south, you’ve got easy dibs going. It’s much easier to move troops. So why does Claudius do it? Well, apparently Claudius does it for a couple of reasons. Primarily because he’s so amazing and he’s expanded the Empire. Also it doesn’t really matter it no one apparently really was that bothered by it. Because Rome at that time if you’re an army you weren’t stationed at Rome you weren’t station really near Rome, you were stationed on the on the borders. So it didn’t really have that same impact in terms of army and I think it’s one of those things he he has his his big thing that he does or a big thing and everyone’s like Yeah, cheers. Thanks for that. Yeah
Dr G 31:31 Whoooo
Dr Rad 31:34 New area code – yay
Neil – History Hound 31:36 Yeah, a really sad kind of a sad popper everything goes up in the background. And it’s kind of just yeah, thanks for that. So yeah, so that’s, that’s primarily the to the to hills, or rather, that’s the Aventine and that the Palatine. And it’s interesting to see how I wouldn’t say they necessarily take on the characteristics of their, of their forbearers, as it were, but there is something there to them. One is associated with everything about Rome, and how great it was. The other one is, yeah, well, and he’s a bit weird. It’s a sort of a black sheep of the Roman hills.
Dr Rad 32:11 I like that idea. So this is actually a good segue for us because we were going to ask you a bit about something to do with Romulus and to do potentially with troops and that sort of thing. So as you know, Romulus seems to come to a sticky end on the Campus Martius. So let’s think about how the Romans might have understood Romulus as connection to this place and his legacy later on, because as you as you’ve already hinted at, the Romans are kind of trying to sometimes fit pieces together retrospectively.
Neil – History Hound 32:46 Yeah, it’s really difficult as well, I think this is why I find the story of love the kings of the Regal period, so fascinating. Because it’s a big disaster movie. That’s what it is. It doesn’t you know, it’s not going well, you know, what’s going to happen? They’re not getting off the plane, it’s, that’s what’s gonna happen. It’s just how are they not gonna get off the plane? And sorry, if that sounded tasteless, by the way, but if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna put it within the context of modern day disaster movies, that kind of thing, this doesn’t end well. And it’s weird, because you have this internal tension in the narrative of isn’t Rome, fantastic? Wasn’t it founded, by the way, it’s amazing. But also, it’s not very good, because it ends really badly, because the thing that starts at all is ultimately a very bad thing, come come the seventh King. I mean, even if you make a good case for Servilius, the sixth king, he he’s he does things, but he still acts in a sort of pseudo dictator fashion at points, because he does cheat the system. He doesn’t have the proper elections and the interregnum and whatnot. It’s just because everyone likes him that it’s okay. So if you look at it from that the process is pretty broken by that point, in terms of how you elect a monarch, and what the monitor should be doing. And the idea of supreme power, and how it’s wielded becomes a, you know, an issue, then it’s not always just that when it’s with the bad guys, and particularly the seventh King, it’s more obvious because you were automatically not liking him. But it’s one of those things that if your friends doing something that isn’t morally good, you can be a bit more forgiving. But obviously, if somebody don’t like doing it, well, then you’re going to be entirely damaged. And I think that’s that’s what you have here. So it’s interesting with a narrative of how how we move across with Romulus, and then you mentioned the Field of Mars, I find it and I again, it’s laugh out loud funny when you hear the story of how he goes missing in the Field of Mars or alternatively is hacked to pieces depending on which you think’s more likely, given that it’s Rome, or we have Rome, where you never have political violence where it’s always everyone’s really happy with each other. And then afterwards, you have that senator appearing and telling the masses who are a bit worried about it. Don’t worry, the ghost of Romulus appeared to me just mean no one else and told me don’t worry, everyone, it’s all good. Life is good. Don’t kick up a fuss I’ve gone now be happy and that’s it. But in terms of the actual location itself, nothing much happens. The Field of Mars in terms of have been developed until the late Republican period, simply because it’s this big, marshy land, it’s got lots of mosquitoes, very difficult to drain. And it’s also useful. It’s a useful kind of area where no one really knows what to do with it. Because you can have horse riding events there. They have some, they have a festival called the October Horse, which comes in later, I think, I don’t think we can really date it to this period. But that that’s linked to sort of horse races, and it doesn’t enter work too well, to the winning horse. I should add, so I won’t go much further than that. But in either case, it’s a space that I think you’ve you’ve you said about how the promotion was important. This is outside so you can kind of anything, anything goes that you can get up to stuff.
Dr G 35:44 Oooo you can get away with hacking someone.
Neil – History Hound 35:45 Yeah, yeah. In theory, allegedly, allegedly, though, he know, he went up to heavens in a storm, because that’s what you do. And I also found it interesting, because I think there and I haven’t been able to get into going into this, but that’s where you have the Theatre of Pompey, which is where Caesar met his end. So I think again, if someone listen to this, and they’re tutting, I apologize. I didn’t get a chance to look into this too much. But I know obviously, Caesar assassinated in the Pompey’s Theatre, and I think that’s where Pompey’s Theatre was based. So if so you have two distinct events in Romans history where a a person in charge meets a rather unfortunate end, both in the Field of Mars. And it’s also the only other thing that I can think of or found within the Regal period is it seems to have been the property of the seventh Quinctius Tarquinius Super-bus. Superbus obviously to have super bus because he’s got a cape on.
Dr G 36:41 Superbus, I believe is how the Latin would would take it, but
Dr Rad 36:45 he’s always Superbus to us.
Neil – History Hound 36:49 Put a cape on him, he’s fine. It that’s apparently that’s that was his land. And when we’re gonna call it Livy says the after he was dealt with, they took it back and dedicated it to Mars. So exactly what he was likely to do with that began perhaps that’s, that was his land, perhaps had something to do with the the army perhaps it had something to do with controlling. It’s not an area around really needs to develop at that point, certainly within a legal period, they’ve got more important places, which we’ll, we’ll speak about in a moment. Yeah. So that’s the that’s the I think, the Campus Martius or as much as we can, much as I’ve got anyway to talk about it.
Dr G 37:23 I mean, it’s an interesting place, because it does have this famous sort of idea about it as this sort of area where people get together. And it’s where a lot of voting happens later on. And things like that be precisely because it’s outside the pomerium. But yeah, it’s interesting that for the Romans, this idea that people could potentially be murdered, there doesn’t necessarily mean that it changes the way that you engage with the space. And perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised by something like that. I mean, that’s true in the modern world, as well. as horrifying as that is if somebody is murdered in their home, for instance, it’s not like the property will stand empty for all time, eventually, somebody will buy it, and it will be used again. So keeping on this sort of topic of violence for a moment, I think it’s the Romans, it’s not us, that’s for sure. There is also the Tarpeian rock, which is this sort of infamous ledge that juts out from the Palatine [correction Capitoline!]. And you can still kind of make it out today, you certainly wouldn’t want to be pushed off the top of it, it would definitely hurt. But it We’re interested in how it comes to have that name. And this might be a bit of a Dorothy Dixer question, because I love the Tarpeian Rock. But also, why does it become so infamous?
So you just done that thing of asking me a question or a subject you’re an expert in and I’m gonna fail horribly. Now. I’m gonna fall from that ledge.
You’re not You’re not.
Neil – History Hound 38:50 Okay.
Dr Rad 38:50 Not at all.
Dr G 38:53 If you if you get close, we’ll catch you don’t worry.
Dr Rad 38:56 Yeah, we also wrote that book a while ago. So the details are getting fuzzy.
Neil – History Hound 39:00 Just gesture at me wildly, no one can see. Yeah, when we got the Tarpeian Rock, I think the Capitoline as I think it’s as alleged that’s it’s on the the Capitoline, which is interesting, because where it’s located is also near a couple of other places that we’re talking about, which are also to do with imprisonment or disposal, as it were. The story goes back and the story is the I mean, when you talk about stories in ancient Rome, and you say that doesn’t really add up there a plotholes. The story of Tarpeia is one of the more bizarre ones because it really doesn’t add up. So the story goes that you’ve got the Sabines who’ve taken the Capitoline Hill, and they’ve taken the Citadel, this is a really important defensive position. There’s lots of problems, and they’ve done so by being betrayed to the Sabines. And the person who does that is Tarpeia. It depends which version, the myth you read, but she’s either the daughter of the main man or who’s in charge there, or she, I think, in some instances been referred to as a Vestal. I think that’s, that that might be another version of it. And she basically says that she likes what the signs have on the left arms, which are bracelets, golden bracelets. If you give me some of those, I’ll let you in. And so it happens. But she is then crushed by the shields because the [leader] Titus Tatius at the time, he’s got the best name second best name in the Regal Rome after Mettius Fufetius. Who’s who should be in the cast of Cats. I don’t know why. But when you read a name, something pops up. I visioned him as some someone from Cats. So yeah, Titus Tatius, he ends up – treats her as a traitor – because she is so betrayed that she doesn’t want to pay her also could be because he’s not gonna give her the golden arm bracelets. And he’s, she then gets sort of crushed by shields, and then that that location takes its name from her traitor, being a traitor. And that’s where people who betray their own state and do very, very, very bad things are held from it. What’s quite bizarre about this story, even within the context is that there was actually a version which I think Dionysus of Halicarnassus talks about Lucius Piso. And he says, actually, they got it wrong, because she was what she was trying to do was disarm the Sabines. And so she was kind of doing, she was acting as double agent, “I’ll let you in, but you just dropped the shields, lever shields, and I’ll let you in.” And then she would have presumably then told her father, whoever they were in command, and they would have been able to take out the sidelines easily. But it’s a bit it’s just a very odd. It’s very odd myth by mythic standards, because there’s so much internal tension. And there is a history of this sort of thing, in terms of people giving away unfortunately, betraying as it were, and being punished for betrayal, there was an individual forget their name who have betrayed a city to Achilles and she was killed. She was stoned to death because it’s a case of well, you betrayed to me it’s I can’t trust you. So there are these sort of it belongs, I think white to a wider morality, tale of betrayal never ends well, as opposed to anything else. But I think it’s also linked to an important point that you make in the book about how women are used, or women appear at really, really important moments within the legal history to make a statement about something or they use to make a statement.
Dr Rad 42:23 Moments of crisis. Yes.
Neil – History Hound 42:26 It can’t Yeah, it can’t be a man wouldn’t betray them. And it had to be a woman who had betrayed and why would a woman betray them? Because of shiny things. And you look at that and just thinking, oh my gosh, it’s just really?
Dr G 42:38 Thanks, Rome. Thanks. Yeah, establishing the patriarchy in such a visceral way for us all.
Dr Rad 42:43 It’s a real vote of confidence.
Neil – History Hound 42:46 Even even people from 1970s British TV would look at that and go, “Well, that’s bit That’s a bit harsh. We can’t do that. That’s, that’s, that’s too much for us.” It’s what the misunderstood heroine aspect, which I think is an important thing. We’ve also got this concept of bloodless execution. Now, one of the things that that is important, both that Rome and more so I think Greece that that’s probably reflects more my study of it is the concept of pollution, miasma. The idea was that if you murdered someone, you are both polluted by the act, and this act could even extend to the objects themselves. In Athens, there was actually a law court that would prosecute objects used in murder. And those there were elsewhere. There’s a story of a I believe it’s in thesaurus or face us an island where there was a statue of a famous athlete. And it was a bronze statue. And every night, this guy turned up who hated this person, and hit it with sticks. And one day, it falls on him and kills him.
Dr G 43:52 Serves him right, stop hitting it with sticks, man.
Neil – History Hound 43:54 Yeah. There’s a sort of it get out sort of, again, I don’t know if people thought this might be a very nice reference, but Basil Fawlty, hitting the Mini with the branches. It’s kind of a thing, and that they took the statute and got prosecuted by the deceased brother, and he got thrown into the sea. And we know about this because afterwards, they started suffering from various problems, harvest problems. And the Oracle of Delphi said, Well, that’s because you need to recall all the exiles, and they recall the exiles, but it still kept happening. And then they said, Well, it’s actually the athlete, you need to bring the athlete back. So they had to get fishing nets, go and find the statue and bring it back and stick it back into place. The point is that certain acts were both manifested pollution at Rome, not just and when we think of pollution, we think of it in the modern context, you think of fumes, you think of bloodstains, things like that, but it could be the act itself and having a top end rock, if someone’s thrown from it, no one’s actually killing you. Which sounds weird because obviously, you know, if I was to push someone off a cliff, I’d be convicted of murder. But the but the way it was seen so differently, it wasn’t that you were sticking a sword in someone’s head. or doing it in a more up to up close and personal manner. And it’s also extended to how the how the Romans would sometimes deal with the defeated enemies that bring in that strangle them. So a lot of the execution What strange and so it What’s strange in all of this is that you have the sort of the gladiators, you have the Colosseum and you have before it the Circus Maximus or other locations where you know, bloodshed is absolutely required. But it’s a very different context. It’s a very different space. So you’ve got this, this strange thing, and I again, I’ve got a question about the pomerium for you. Because technically, are you above the pomerium if you’ve been pushing a rock? So does this act still occur within and that’s a thought exercise more anything else? Because there was paper, one paper I read and it suggested that you have these two spaces in Rome where people are disposed of or could be disposed of one of them is the Tarpeian Rock the other one is later becomes the Cacer or Tullianum, which we’ll speak about. And in the in the one that’s underground, people could be strangled in the one that’s above ground people thrown from it. So, again, how does that interact with a pomerium? Because it’s not happening on the ground? Is it still? Is it still affecting it or interacting with someone? I’m not gonna answer necessary expecting the answer on that. I just it was one of the things that came up and I thought, can I just throw them that one? They’ll probably hate me for it. But
Dr Rad 43:56 I look, I think this ties into Dr. G’s interest in the sense of the way that Vestals are disposed of when they’ve been thought…
Neil – History Hound 45:26 Oh, sorry. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Sorry. That was the best example. Why didn’t I think of that? Sorry? No, no,
Dr Rad 45:41 No, there was really no, I was just saying, Yeah, I think it’s very much in Dr. G’s realm of interest. Yeah.
Dr G 46:39 Yeah. And I think it is a really interesting question. And it is one that I would want to think about more as well, because there is that sense in which the Romans do like creating scenarios where they can say that the gods kind of made the decision about that person’s outcome, rather than themselves. And if you manage to convince somebody, either when you’re putting them at a spear point, or whatever, to jump off that rock that’s now in the gods’ hands. And that would be then considered a naturally occurring death rather than one in which life has been taken by another human, and therefore the pollution doesn’t happen. strangulation, I think would be a more challenging one to get the vibe, right for in terms of the moral justification. So I’m intrigued by that, because certainly, as a parallel to that, the situation with the Vestal Virgins was that the burial spot was always outside the pomerium, just just outside, so like, right on that edge, okay. And by having that underground chamber and providing a little bit of food and beverage, and then locking those women in, they could reasonably and morally claim that no person in Rome had killed that woman, the gods had decided that she had to die.
Neil – History Hound 48:05 I know in theory as well, I suppose you’re, you’ve got the world if the gods really liked her, they’ve come and saved her.
Dr G 48:10 Well, exactly. She would have gotten out of there and presumably run away from the city, not come back. So did any survive? We don’t know.
Neil – History Hound 48:19 Yeah. There is there is a philosophical exercise or an exercise that was done by in rhetoric, apparently relating to this. So there, you have Quintilian, apparently, who talks about what happens if someone survives the form? And the argument is, do you take them back up and ask for them? And ask them? Do you mind? Would you take them back up and redo it again?
Dr G 48:48 Yeah. Could you quite possibly, I’m sorry?
Neil – History Hound 48:50 How awkward for us. This is really embarrassing from us. So can you help us out here? And there’s also these types of sort of, I don’t know if there’s necessarily an answer to that thing. It was just one of those sort of rhetorical discussions that you had as part of training, because another one that was similar to this was that tyrants were forbidden to be buried in in the city. But if you’re struck by lightning, apparently, you had to be buried wherever you were struck by lightning. So if a tyrant was struck by lightning in the forum, they would have to be buried in the forum, or don’t you? And again, it’s one of those there’s probably not a right answer. It’s just a sort of how you how you would argue and how you don’t argue counters and stuff like that. So again, the other thing about the Tarpeian is that apparently that’s what the hill was called before it was called to cancel. Yeah, and it was only changed. I left this, they they changed the name because they found ahead when they were digging for the temple, the foundation of the temple.
Dr G 49:48 That head’s pretty important. I think we need to change the name of this place.
Dr Rad 49:53 It’s a sign that Rome was meant to be the dominant place in the whole world…
Neil – History Hound 49:58 I like the idea that it was found by someone and they’re like, “Oh, I found this head.” “Yeah, it looks like the guy you had an argument with in the pub last night.” “Might be, no idea. I think what we do is obviously come from the gods we obviously meet need to change the name – doesn’t look anything like that guy I had an argument with at the pub last night? No.”
Dr Rad 50:14 it’s clearly a symbol of our domination.
Neil – History Hound 50:18 Yeah. So yeah, that’s I mean, I think I’ve covered some of the aspects to it. But it’s just the way it looks. Now, I understand is very different, because again, it wasn’t something that should be said, if you’re walking around Rome, now you’re walking around in incredibly different Rome, even to the point of going back to say, the first century AD, I think the current archaeological level is around 10 meters below the current level, in most obviously. So in some places, it won’t be, but in other places it will be. And in fact, when we want to come to talk about the Tiber, even the Tiber itself is in a very different place to when it was and this changed throughout the Republican period as well, which is a point again, that I’ll come to I got obsessed by the Tiber River after a while. I read so many reports and geological surveys and gosh knows what.
Dr Rad 51:05 Well, you’ve given me a perfect segue here because the next thing we wanted to ask you about were bridges. So Rome’s second king Numa is generally given the credit for building the first permanent bridge over the Tiber, known as the Pons Sublicius. Now, obviously, there are practical reasons that one would build a bridge over a river. However, this particular one also seems to have had very significant religious connotations for the Romans. So how was the Pons Sublicius entwined with Roman ritual practices in this early period?
Neil – History Hound 51:46 Thank you. Thank you, right. Yeah, I got obsessed by the Pons Sublicius, because when I was reading up and doing research on it, to talk about the bridge, you have to talk about the river to talk about the river tie, but you’ve got to make a couple of points about it. The first is the river Tiber now is in a very different course to where it was even in archaic Rome. So in archaic Rome, the likelihood was that it was around 100 meters, where it bends round and comes into what is the Forum Boarium in that area, it was 100 meters further to the east. So if you think the Via Petrocelli that was pretty much the riverbank of the time, if you look on a modern map, if you stood by the bank, now you’d be underwater. That’s important for a number of reasons. Firstly, the Tiber was wider, therefore slower. The type of the course of the type of changes and it changes for a number of reasons it changes because of human activity, it changes because of natural mechanics such as siltation. There’s also other things apparently are going on it’s do with tectonic features, and whatnot. And everything else far too complicated for my for my shallow mind, pun intended, when it comes to that kind of thing. So that explains one practical – because I wanted to what the practical aspect of the bridge first – because it’s famous because it’s a wooden bridge built without iron. And it takes its name Sublicius, apparently, from piles, which are what it’s built on. Now, anyone who’s lives near river will realize that bridges are very dangerous. If the rivers starts misbehaving, if you’ve got a permanent bridge, a stone bridge, that can really cause problems, if the rivers changing if the rivers changing, cause if it’s widening or shortening. If it’s flooding you can cause it can cause you some serious problems. And it’s not until the second century BC that you have the Pons Aemelius, which is the first stone bridge, possibly reconstructed from a wooden one. If you’ve got this little wooden bridge, and it’s on piles, and it can be its mobile, you can do a lot with it, you can make it longer, you can make it shorter, if you think you can raise it, it gives you much more mobility, which is essential when you’ve got the Tiber which is changing, the Tiber seems to narrow at this point. So when you have a narrowing River as a general rule, said with my geography GCSE how often it gets faster, it gets deeper, so it becomes more dangerous. And that’s why that’s why we have the bridge in its form. And again, I can’t overestimate just how much this does change. For example, the Tiber Island builds up apparently due to sortation in this period, so it’s not that and I did read one, one account one myth, I don’t know if this links in necessarily, because I’m not sure if it was this they were speaking about. But the myth related to the field of Mars, and apparently some wheat was grown there, because it was sacred to the god Mars, they couldn’t, they couldn’t eat it or do anything with it. So they will throw in the river and throw it in the river. And it’s so cool, so big that it built up over time. And that’s how you get the type of river type Tiber island. So I think I think that’s one explanation that the Romans had. But in any case, even and this is really important, even if you you were living in the time. If you live for 300 years in from the Regal period onward, you’d have seen the type of move massively so there’s something that I try and get across to people and it’s very difficult because I I always thought of it as we think of ancient history as monolithic. So the people in 500 BC are the same as the ones in first century AD got the same taste, same technology, they’re all ancient. Whereas the reality is, even in sort of between centuries, you’ve got big changes going on. You’ve got big change in attitude. When Martial has epigrams he does a guest he does a list of the gifts in the Saturnalia in those includes ancient vases. So what’s an ancient vase? Well, well yeah, because it’s not it’s 300 years old 400 years old, it’s gonna be ancient it’s we don’t have this one advantage for looking or one privilege looking now backwards and going everything before you know the year doll year zero as it were, was ancient and it belong to the same thing people within that period considered time as we do in the same way that we might look back and go the industrial revolution that was a long time ago, people in Republican Rome were looking back and going Romulus a long time ago. Or in theory anyway, if if we knew what they were thinking because bearing in mind that myth doesn’t start coming around till later on. Anyway, I’ll get back to the bridge. So you have the you have the bridge, which is said is built wooden, and I got it I got a question for your good selves on this. During – and this is where it links in because we have Numa as linked into the bridge, because he was said to have brought in the pontifex or the pontifices – pontifys – pontifesses. It doesn’t sound right, it’s probably the way I’ve done it isn’t a scientific case. I’m stuck. I’m so gonna mispronounce that and make it a swear word. So I’ll just I’ll just say priests, I’m just gonna say priests from now on the so you have the priests that are associated with a bridge and the repair. And Plutarch speaks about this. But he says, I don’t believe it, everyone else does. But I’ve I’ve got I have a thought. And it’s not going to be an original thought. It’s like many thoughts I have, I think they’re really, really good. And then I googled them, it turns out, someone wrote a book about it in the 1920s. But at this time, you have Rome, really, really creating ritual associated to so many things. And one of the things is warfare, you have the doors at Temple thing is Janus, which are opened, close, depending on when Rome is at war, you have the fetiales the priests that you have to declare were in a rich war in a ritualized way, and Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus both tell us that this bridge was removed in times of war, primarily for practical reasons, it made sense, because that’s the front door to Rome, they’re not going across that if you leave the drawbridge down, problems are going to happen. So if you think about the declaration of war, and then you’ve got a move an object, and they’re shutting doors, and they’re dancing to declare war, why wouldn’t that be as part of some sort of religious ritual? I mean, again, I’m asking the both of you if you you’ve probably read books on this already. So it’s not a new thing. But could it be in that that declaration of war in the movement of the bridge was was a religious or brought into the religious sphere?
Dr G 57:51 Yeah, I think so. And look, you’re not alone. It is, I think the bane of every researcher of the ancient world to come to the sad realization that a German scholar in the 19th century has gazumped you. And, really, you’re playing a tough game of catch up. But yeah, certainly this idea of the bridge as being one in the caretakership of the pontifices. So already, there is a ritualized aspect to it, it’s something under their purview, they need to think about it. And the idea that a waterway wouldn’t have huge symbolic and ritual significance, in any case, I think would be misplaced. There’s nothing quite as fundamental to ensuring that urban life is successful, then making sure that you’ve tended to the river and you Look after it, and it’s part of the care and concern. And so having rituals developed around this kind of thing is super important and useful. Water is a cleansing agent. In many respects, it’s one of the ways that you shift pollution away from the the sort of the urban area. So it’s not a great idea necessarily to put heaps of stuff into your river. But if you’d need to it moves, and that’s great, it’s probably the fastest way to get it away. And in that sense, having something that traverses that space, allows you to open up one powerful opportunity ahead of you on the other side. But also, as you say, that’s that really profound sense of the defensive quality that comes with a waterway and what a bridge does to sort of counteract that. So I think there is ways in which having rituals built up around a wooden bridge that you can shift and move and perhaps adapt to the situation. Super useful and important. And there’s certainly no way that I can think of that that wouldn’t be a religious thing from the Rome’s perspective, from the Roman perspective. They see gods in water, they see gods on land, they see gods in the sky. It’s all happening everywhere all the time.
Neil – History Hound 1:00:01 Thanks very much for that. And I’m glad that I wasn’t having a moment just thinking that that was something and I completely understand what you’re saying about how, when you have these fantastic ideas, you find out that someone has written a book in German in 1912 about it. That happened to me quite a few times. I remember when I was at uni, and I was coming up with great ideas and then finding various books written about it. No, it’s quite, it’s great, because on one level, you think you’ve made a real achievement. On the other hand, you get that that dashed quite quickly. But going back to the bridge, there is an episode the bridge is associated with, that falls out just outside just after the recall period. It involves a great name, another great Roman name, and I apologize for my associations when I read this name. Its name is Horatius Cocles. But I read it as a right when I first read it, it’s Horatius, Horatius Cockles, made me straightaway, I was thinking of that he’s in Dickens, he feels like he should be a chimney sweeper in Dickens or something. But he’s, he’s a he performs a heroic act. So what happens is you have the Etruscans, who are being led by Lars Porsenna. And they’re attacking Rome, they take the Janiculum Hill, which I’ll speak about in a moment. And then they look to attack Rome and get through the front of it through that bridge. And Horatius is still on the bridge. And he’s defending against all of these individuals. And he asked that the bridge is dismantled behind him, so they can’t make they can’t make progress. He successfully defeats a few of them and then jumps in the river and swims to the side after being injured a few times.
Dr Rad 1:01:38 Excuse me, we have to mention that he was injured in the buttocks.
Neil – History Hound 1:01:42 Oh I didn’t want to say anything? Well, actually, I didn’t want to say anything about that. It links in if when I thought of that. I don’t know if you familiar with the Battle of Stamford Bridge?
Dr Rad 1:01:53 Ah, yes, I think I am. Is that are we talking about something to do with 1066?
Neil – History Hound 1:01:59 Yeah. 1066. So prior to the Battle of Hastings, you have the Battle of Stamford Bridge, which is up in the north of England, where you have an invading sort of caught this army. Forget the name of it, is it Harold Bluetooth? Someone.
Dr Rad 1:02:12 Harold, Harold Hardrada, I think yeah. Yeah,
Neil – History Hound 1:02:15 Sorry, yeah. And they, they, they were attacked, and you have one individual defending against all of the, the the English as it were army on a bridge. And he puts up a heroic performance until someone goes under the bridge and stabs him from underneath it, and presumably in the groin, stroke, buttock area again. So, if just a just a general thing, if you ever find yourself defending against superior forces on a bridge, where everyone’s got pointy things – just watch your backside, that’s all I’m gonna say. That’s a big weakness. Yeah, just handy hint there, you know, do what do what you will with it. And this, this became a huge, hugely important thing. And again, to the credit of your book, you write about exemplar, you write about the idea of particular events in Roman history being held up as this is how we do it. This defines this as a culture. This is how Rome saw itself, this is a defining moment, it I think, in a way it kind of gets overlooked, because that’s at the time where you’ve got the Republic, being sort of born, you’ve got lots of things going on. It’s like one of those years where you see what won the Oscar and you think my god that won the Oscar and all these other amazing films didn’t win the Oscar, you think that would have won the Oscar any other year, but you had like four of them on you. And around 509 BC, you have all these big events are some big events going on, they they kind of almost, they take, they steal the attention from each other. But Rome was very, very keen on this becomes a sort of household thing within Rome. You have later emperors, using the imagery to announce how they’re taking Rome back to traditional values, and how they’re going to defend our own and things like that. So again, it’s it’s really important that bridges ultimately associated with that, because how you define that visually, is with a bridge. Because otherwise it’s just someone stood there with a spear. You have to have something else in the image. Presumably you’re not gonna have his buttocks being stabbed. You’re gonna –
Dr G 1:02:42 Make sure you’ve got a strong pair of underpants.
Neil – History Hound 1:04:22 Well, yeah, that the artists were so limited, you got coin, I’ve got a coin. That’s all I’ve got. So it becomes a really defining moment for for Rome, and that bridge is part of that. So it can and it’s also when we talk about space, in a way we have to talk about time. And when you have somewhere like and I should have mentioned this about Tarpeian rock, and about the bridge. These are both places that Romans can go to and feel and connect with the past as it were now not saying that we will kind of doing nice, guided tours of Rome getting in touch with it in a row. Humans, but at the same time, culturally, you have these points where you can say, this is where this happened. We have that now, you know, we have pretty much you can go to any city and it will have this is where so and so lived or this is where this particular event occurred. And the the actual location might look very different to how it did back then. But you can still, in theory, connect with it. So I think this is very important for Rome on a couple in a couple of ways. The only other thing I can mention about the bridge was because I’m gonna speak about how it linked in with the Janiculum. But the expansion, you know, the bridge allowed the broom to expand past its initial borders, it was that that thing which allowed it to get past the Tiber, which was ultimately there’s something that hugely defined it, you know, the hills, keep it there, but the type is the thing that really defines Rome, or that’s how I, that’s how I perceive it. And you also have the, again, my pronunciation with Argive, the Argives, which has a ritual of purification that finished on the bridge, where they threw straw doles into the water as a part of purification of the city. So yeah, the bridge is really, really important. And it’s something which doesn’t necessarily underlooked think there’s a lot of things to consider it right. But if you’re thinking about Rome, perhaps think about the bridges next time we visit Rome, think more about the bridges as a way of going somewhere, just you know, go and stand and have a Look round. Think what what might have been,
Dr G 1:06:22 I was gonna say, you know, you’re not going to have him like bending over showing his butt cheek to everybody. Disappointing Rome, you had a choice and you missed it.
Dr Rad 1:06:33 What would happen if you weren’t wearing steel underwear at that very moment?
Dr G 1:06:43 Think of what would happen if they were made of wood and how difficult they would have been to cross? So we’ve been thinking about the major hills of Rome, we’ve been thinking about the Tiber River. And we’ve talked a little bit specifically about the Palatine and the Aventine because they sort of stand out in that sort of foundation moment for Rome. But there’s definitely more than to the fabled seven. And you’ve mentioned already the Janiculum. A little bit. And I’m also wondering maybe about the Caelian Hill as well. And how did these hills start to feature into the Regal history as it starts to expand out and we get further into the Kings?
Neil – History Hound 1:07:29 Okay, yeah, I mentioned the Janiculum. So the Janiculum is inherently linked to Rome, because of that bridge. And it’s the other side of the Tiber. The Janiculum in a sense is there for one reason, and it’s there because you want to get it before anyone else gets it. And again, if you’ve if you’ve replaced civilization, you’re thinking that big hill, it’s near my city, I’ve got to put some units on that. Because guess what will happen if I don’t. And it’s, it’s justified. Partly, and I think this is the this is interesting, because the other things about the hills is they get much more of a sort of cultural feel to them. With a genetic, you know, it’s there. The sources pretty much say it’s there because of trade. Because then if you’ve got that hill, you can govern what goes on on the river. And now the trade routes the other side of the Tiber, which apparently could be exposed to banditry, which is very common. It’s also defense because if you’ve got the hills, someone else can’t win. Interestingly enough, when you’ve got Horatius the reason that the advancing Etruscan army are able to do that and take the bridge or try and take the bridge is because they took the Janiculum first, it’s the first place they went. So it’s really important purely from a strategic point. Other Hills tend to be more cultural. The Caelian Hill is was settled by Tullus Hostilius from those people that he took from Alba Longa, which is where yeah, where he devastated it more or less after some thorough betrayal by Mettius Fufetius, who was torn asunder by horses. I think it’s even even Livy’s says that was wrong. Yeah, that was not a good time You crossed the line.
Dr Rad 1:09:04 That’s one of my favorite names.
Neil – History Hound 1:09:09 Yeah, what again, I just think of him as the Cowardly Lion type character, but he wasn’t; he was very – he was an ardent politician and, and a treacherous one at that. Which surprised really, because you would have thought you could have gone to the Tarpeian rock instead. But hey, you got horses, what are you going to do? Now in terms of it being named, it was named after apparently an Etruscan soldier called Caelius Verbena, or my personal favorite – and I like this more – it could have been named after oak trees. And if you think why would you name somewhere after oak trees I did. Did read that the Aventine apparently in association with the myrtle tree so that could have been a reason why it took its name. Esquiline Hill was apparently named after chestnut trees or could have been, and the Viminal after willow trees.
Dr G 1:09:56 That’s a beautiful way to think about Rome. Just yeah, that’s surrounding forest and much more peaceful but other options.
Dr Rad 1:10:03 Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds too much. It sounds uncharacteristically gentle.
Neil – History Hound 1:10:08 I know, it did stick out when I was reading. And I thought, that will be nice. I don’t believe it. But that would be nice. It’s more likely that we’re going to name this hill after someone we through from after someone we cut in half, or it’s, you know, doesn’t always seem to be the most pleasant way that they find their names, but, but also considering just think of how Romans considered their space. And it was dominated by woods, forests, and trees. And obviously, you don’t get that so much. If you go to Rome. Now, obviously, even they got some wonderful plane trees. And they they do have some, some lovely shrubbery, too. But as a general, you forget just how much it would have been dictated by so far, we spoke about hills. So far, we’ve spoken about geographical features, topological features, as it were. But we’re also talking about sort of, you know, woods, trees, things like that.
Dr G 1:10:59 And I think this is ties in very much to what you’ve been saying earlier about, like that sort of monolithic approach to history. And the mistake in doing that, and it’s like, this is a place that’s just starting out as a place where people have settled and decided to build a life for themselves. It is immersed in nature, they’re surrounded by it. And it’s not like when you go to Rome today, and it’s obviously a very urban place. And they do have a lot of big and beautiful gardens, but they’re very contained. This is much more sprawling wildness. And the thing that is unusual is the fact that there are people living here.
Neil – History Hound 1:11:32 Yeah, yeah. The only other thing that I could really come into when it’s talking about the calean is something that is, is I can find a great deal of evidence behind it. But the link to possibly Egeria or Egeria, she was the nymph who advised Numa Pompilius, the second Roman king, and who apparently helped him do anything there was there’s a sort of shrine, apparently, or, or, or something near the Porta Capena, which was on the foot of the hill. And it for those that don’t know, you can look at numerous in two ways. You can look at him this kindly, old man, or you can look at him as a bit of a bit of a traveling salesman. I always think of kind of those those in those films where you have the sort of preacher from the self in the United States, and they’re sort of they’re gonna cure you, and you know, all of that kind of stuff. And he feels a bit of light at times, mainly because he sorts of does things like, he convinces people to come around, look at his place and say, look, I’ve got nothing to serve anyone for a feast? Come back in a couple hours. Wow, look, I’m magic. There’s, there’s lots of food. And apparently people in Rome said, well, that that must be magic, as opposed to just knowing the caterer, which is more plausible response. But he was very much linked into this sort of spiritual mythology of Rome, he gave Rome or furnishes Rome, with a set of really religious, religious spaces where they just compete, because he seems to have taken root, he didn’t want a job as king, he turns up, and then he realizes that you’ve got this really, really gruesome band of highly undesirable people who are being very violent to each other. Rather than keep it you’ve got to keep them away from declaring war. So we just give them a space where they can compete with that when he does that through setting up all the magistracies all the all the presets and stuff like that. So people can now sort of, I suppose, work out how they can graft across those that that competitive element into the religious element. And so presumed now people just getting annoyed that didn’t get the right priesthood as opposed to running across and chopping someone’s head off. So he kind of contains that. So you got to feel from that respect, but apparently he has a nymph, who teaches him lots gives him lots of special advice and information. She was linked in some way to this hill, or has a possible association with this hill.
Dr G 1:13:49 Numa he’s one of my favorite characters from the Regal period, I have to say, and the fact that he spends what seems to be at least 50% of his time hanging out with imaginary friend in the forest is just fantastic.
Neil – History Hound 1:14:03 Well, one of the things I don’t, I don’t won’t get the chance to talk about is Jupiter Lisius, or Licius the, the the magical sprats that he had, which would stop him getting hit by lightning and the fact that he could use an altar to Jupiter to conduct a storm and then read portents from it. I just think that’s wonderful. That’s just such a fantastic myth that you had him or rather in association with him, it sort of moves more to the whole of trust and brontoscopy, which is how you read the portents through through storms and I’ve actually got a copy of the brontoscopic calendar and I put it up on my Tiktok whenever it storms or go out and I read what it portrays do what it you know, it says weird stuff. Sometimes it’s like, everyone will die. The crops will be ruined. Sometimes it’s some sometimes it’s it’s nice. Most of the time it’s not. Sometimes it’s nice saying anyone called Clive, they probably need to check their their car insurance. It goes from the big to the really, really incidental, because presumably you’ve got 365 entries. So once you get the big things done,
Dr G 1:15:08 you just got to fill out the rest of the thing. You’re like, okay, all right,
Neil – History Hound 1:15:12 Check. If there’s Thunderhead check the back of the fridge, something might be off. It’s that sort of a thing.
Dr G 1:15:20 Well, thank you so much for sitting down with us. And taking us through some of these sort of sprawling landscapes that make up this early, early period of Rome’s sort of typography, the way it thinks about itself. And the way people might be engaging with those sorts of spaces. I think it’s really great food for thought, to start to reimagine what this place Look like, how it operated, and how people operated within those spaces. And obviously, the modern city today inspires your imagination for some of those sorts of things. But when we’re thinking about the Regal period, we’re going back well before all of those ruined pieces of architecture that you spot in the forum, for instance. So it’s like, we really have to get ourselves into a whole different zone to start thinking about the Regal period. So thank you so much.
Neil – History Hound 1:16:11 No pleasure, thank you very much for letting me come on give you weird analogies. jokes that probably to do well, and tangents, which is generally what I do.
Dr G 1:16:19 Oh no, I’m always up for a good shrubbery reference, you know.
Dr Rad 1:16:26 And I think that you have showcased to our audience if they aren’t already avid listeners of your podcast, that in spite of the fact that you keep calling us experts, your level of research is amazing. And people should definitely go and check out your wonderful work.
Neil – History Hound 1:16:42 That’s very kind of you. You’re not expecting money for that. Are you? I have no, I have no budget. I can’t.
Dr Rad 1:16:48 Well, naturally I don’t want to have to pay you for plugging out book earlier, obviously.
Neil – History Hound 1:16:52 Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate being being on a on a podcast such as yourselves, which is obviously very, very helpful very well in high esteem.
Dr G 1:17:22 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you’re keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi, or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book “Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome” at partial historians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Brief Life and Times of Servius Romanus
Apr 11, 2024
Who is Servius Romanus you might ask? Well, in this episode we’re about to find out. But when we tell you it’ll be brief – we are telling only the truth! On the back of the putative introduction of pay for Roman soldiers in 406 BCE (a much disputed idea in scholarship), Rome is facing challenges from their neighbours. These challenges are coming from many directions, so it’s no doubt a relief when someone helps them out. Enter: Servius Romanus.
Episode 149 – The Brief Life and Times of Servius Romanus
Siege at Veii!
Watch out Veii, Rome is coming for you! Veii seems to be well aware of the Roman threat, however, and might just be looking to call in the broader Etruscan peoples to support them. How will things pan out for Veii in the years 405 and 404? We consider the fairly limited details for your listening pleasure.
But what about the Volscians?
Rome is facing trouble on multiple fronts (perhaps indicated by the sheer number of military tribunes with consular power listed for both the years 405 and 404). It comes as no surprise that pursuing an aggressive policy against Veii opens the way for more conflict from the Volscii. Listen out for mentions of places including Ferentium, Ecetra, and Artena.
Aerial photograph of the modern town of Artena in Lazio, Italy. Photo by FrancescoSchiraldi85 via Wikimedia Commons.
Our Players for 405 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Titus Quinctius T. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat)
Quintus Quinctius (L. f. L. n.) Cincinnatus (Pat)
Gaius Iulius Sp. f. Vopisci n. Iullus (Pat)
Aulus Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus (Pat)
Lucius Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat)
Manius Aemilius Mam(ercus). f. M(arcus). n. Mamercinus (or Mamercus) (Pat)
Our Players for 404 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Gaius Valerius L. f. Vol. n. Potitus Volusus (Pat)
Manius Sergius L. f. L. n. Fidenas (Pat)
Publius Cornelius (M. f. M. n.) Maluginensis (Pat)
Gnaeus Cornelius P. f. A. n. Cossus (Pat)
Kaeso Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat)
Spurius Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus (Pat)
Things to listen out for
Challenges with the extant source material
The organisation of the Etruscan federation
The Shrine of Voltuma (the Central Perk?)
What’s going on with the politics of Sicily and Carthage?
The intriguing modern history of Artena
Military strategy re citadels in action
Food security in the ancient world compared with climate change today
A sneaky mention of Velitrae
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy, ab Urbe Condita, 4.60-61
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.17.1; 14.19.1; Fasti Capitolini for 405 and 404 BCE
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Painted terracotta Etruscan antefix depicting the head of Medusa. From the Portonaccio Temple at Veii, c. 510 BCE. Held in National Etruscan Museum of Villa Giulia, Rome. Photo by Carole Raddato via Flickr.
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:02 And I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:04 Welcome back, everybody! We are getting so very close to the turn of the century. Here, we’re edging our way closer and closer with every episode. In fact, I think this episode, we’re going to do two years in one episode, I’m just I just have a feeling.
Dr G 1:21 Look, I definitely have that feeling. But that might be because I have so many gaps in my source material.
Dr Rad 1:28 You’re not alone. I don’t have much in my particular source material this time. But we’re excited to be talking once more about ancient Rome listeners, and what was happening at this particularly interesting time in their history.
Dr G 1:43 It is 405 BCE. And that’s where we’ll, that’s where we’ll be starting out in this.
Dr Rad 1:50 But before we do that, Dr. G, I think we need to do a bit of a recap, because the last year was pretty significant.
Dr G 1:58 It was, but I’ll level with you. I can’t really remember. But I think that’s my source material.
Dr Rad 2:04 That’s the best way to remember that something was important!
Dr G 2:08 It was all about the vibe. Wasn’t it?
Dr Rad 2:10 Okay. So whilst there are, obviously, you know, some questions that we had, if we’re going to believe the account that we have from Livy, who is our major narrative source at this point for ancient Roman history, it was the year that military pay was introduced. That’s what we were talking about last time. Finally, there was an actual kind of more or less state funded military pay that was introduced in the previous episode, and everyone lost their collective minds.
Dr G 2:43 They did, because we also have what amounts to a dual or triple military sort of pronged situation where the Volscii are causing an issue. The Aequians might be also a problem. And then there’s also the issue with Veii.
Dr Rad 2:58 Yes, the Etruscans once again, rearing their ugly heads in the north.
Dr G 3:04 And I think we should put a big asterisk next to soldiers pay, because this seems to be in at best, maybe a one off payment for some difficult conditions being faced, and potentially the need to overwinter in a location rather than return home, stay warm at home and nice and cozy, and then go back out in springtime, which is the usual way that Roman campaigning seems to have operated.
Dr Rad 3:32 Yes, this is a chilly money situation. It may not even be money –
Dr G 3:37 Show me that cold hard cash!
Dr Rad 3:39 Yeah because I will be cold. Yeah, no. It might not even be money. Obviously, it might be goods of some kind, obviously, food, food resources, food related resources.
Dr G 3:52 Nevertheless, it might set an exciting precedent for what soldiers might expect in the future.
Dr Rad 3:58 Oh, absolutely. As hard as we know, it’s always hard to put a genie back in a bottle, Dr G. So whilst there are a lot of questions about how are they getting paid? Why were they getting paid? Were they even getting paid? Livy tells us that they were and that they were just so excited about the idea. And of course, the only people that were holding back a little bit were the tribune of the plebs. They were suspicious from the get go.
Dr G 4:27 Probably rightly, so. I’ll give them that.
Dr Rad 4:29 Yeah, and that’s because we kind of started out 406 last episode with this conflict with they starting to rev up. But nobody really having the enthusiasm or the energy to go and deal with it because they were already, as you say, fighting other enemies and dealing with other issues, and they were just kind of over it. But this whole military pay scenario and the way that the patricians handled it in particular, has really won them over and they’re so excited that the Romans were able to declare war on they and have basically like a full volunteer army like there’s no talk about the levy and that sort of thing. Ready to go.
Dr G 5:10 People are like, ‘Payment? Sign me up, I’m in.’
Dr Rad 5:12 Oh, absolutely they were like, ‘Hell yeah. Because, if you’re going to pay me, I’m absolutely there.’
Dr G 5:17 Wait a minute.
Dr Rad 5:19 Yeah. I mean that to be fair, that’s that’s kind of my line as well.
Dr G 5:23 Fair enough. Yeah. All right. So that means it is time to turn our attention to 405 BCE.
Dr Rad 5:31 Certainly is.
All right, Dr. G. Now, I know that Dionysius has left you after some creative differences.
Dr G 6:09 We disagreed on whether he should leave his fragments behind for posterity and he just absolutely refused.
Dr Rad 6:16 I know that you probably know who the magistrates are, at least, so thanks to Broughton.
Dr G 6:23 Ah, dear Broughton, where would I be without Broughton’s superior work? So apparently, and things are starting to feel a little chaotic from a magisterial perspective. Because apparently, we have six military tributes with consular power for the year 405, which is a lot, maybe too many. And so I’m going to give you a whole list of Latin names and everybody listening – and us – are going to feel slightly bad. Get ready for it. Get ready for it, because none of these names actually mean anything. Because I have no other source material. So I don’t know what sort of weight to give them. Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus
Dr Rad 7:05 Familiar, familiar
Dr G 7:07 Previously consul in 421. So must be getting on a little bit now.
Dr Rad 7:12 I was going to say the Quinctii are definitely a family that we know well.
Dr G 7:17 They are. And we also have Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus who previously military tribunes with consular power in 415. So two Quinctii already
Dr Rad 7:29 And not the famous Cincinnatus. This would be someone from that branch.
Dr G 7:35 Yeah, we’re done with famous Cincinatii for now.
Dr Rad 7:38 Yeah, he’s dead. Yeah.
Dr G 7:40 He’s gone. Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus
Dr Rad 7:44 Ooo a Iulii.
Dr G 7:48 Indeed. And a recent military tribute and as well from 408.
Dr Rad 7:53 True, very true.
Dr G 7:56 Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus
Ahhh the manly Manlii.
Watch out for this guy. He’s on the up and up. Lucius Furius Medullinus.
Dr Rad 8:11 Excellent. Gotta have some Furii in there.
Dr G 8:13 You certainly do, and a very illustrious one as well. So he was previously consul in 413, and 409. And also military tribune with consular power in 407. And is in the middle of a career, so he’s going to come up again and again. And finally, we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus, or Mamercus? There seems to be some confusion.
Dr Rad 8:40 There always is with this guy.
Dr G 8:43 This guy, yeah. Consul in 410. And we’ll also have some future since as well coming up. So some pretty familiar names, I would say, I don’t think anybody sort of stands out as being really unusual here, except maybe Vulso Capitolinus. But yeah, there’s just a lot of them, which suggests that Rome has got a lot of military issues where they want commanders in the field.
Dr Rad 9:12 I think that’s how we should probably read this, given what we know is happening in the background. But it’s also really interesting to say this, because it’s really like a who’s who of the famous gens – the clans – of ancient Rome at this point in time. These are these are families that have just come up again and again.
Dr G 9:29 Yeah, they’re all the big families. All of them have had previous positions. None of them are new families to these kinds of roles. So we’ve got a sense in which there is an elite that has really established itself over the course of this first century of the early republic, as far as our records take us. And we have to admit that they’re kind of sketchy, I guess. So. Yeah. For instance, the Fasti Capitolini is the big inscription that we tend to refer to to get these names from initial late, but we understand that the Fasti Capitolini was a late creation.
Dr Rad 10:06 Yes, exactly.
Dr G 10:07 And we’re not sure what documentation it was necessarily leveraged from? Was it from linen scrolls? Or is it from other inscriptions? Was it from family oral histories? So, I mean, the big questions are still there to be asked what is going on? And I feel like Livy is going to have the answers.
Dr Rad 10:26 Well, look, we do have a fairly big event for this year, but not a lot of detail at the moment. Okay, we’re gonna have a banner year in 403. 405 and 404 are important just for the build up towards that point. So basically, what Livy tells me is that we’ve got all these different military tribunes and these are the guys that start the siege of they the first siege of Veii, so Veii being this Etruscan city that Rome has particular beef with probably because geographically, they just come into contact a lot more than some of the other Etruscan city. So they start this siege, not long after the beginning of the sage, the Etruscans come together to have one of their federal meetings. Now, just a refresher, in case you have forgotten, the Etruscans not all ruled by you know, like one major city or one person or even one group of people. As far as we can see a trust can share, you know, kind of like a cultural, linguistic connection with each other. But, you know, they can come together and unite. But there are 12 major cities that kind of form the basis of Etruria to the north of Rome.
Dr G 11:53 Yeah, so they tend to have what we think are 12 kings, so 12 regal representatives. And in a way you can think of Rome having gone through a similar kind of process, with having a king very localized the king of the place. Yes, and what Etruria has done is to sort of harness that kind of leadership into a broad coalition.
Dr Rad 12:15 Exactly. Yeah.
Dr G 12:16 And you might see this as similar to the what the Latin people were also doing. So we know that Alba Longa, up in the mountains to the south east of Rome had a king, for instance. So this idea of really localized magisterial power is not new for the whole Italian Peninsula. But the way the Etruscans are able to harness it into a coalition does seem to be a little bit more fruitful for them than it is for other groups within Italy.
Dr Rad 12:45 Yes, exactly. And we have talked about them having these group meetings before, so I kind of like to think of them as being like Power Rangers. They come together, and they discuss, ‘Is it morphing time? Is it?’ So in this particular instance, we know that over the past sort of, you know, 50 years in particular, there have been some pretty epic clashes between they and drone. And we know there have been instances where the Etruscans have come together to talk about how involve everyone else should get in these clashes between their environment. This is again, one of those moments, where they meet at this place called the shrine of Voltumna. So again, we’ve mentioned this place before, when we’ve talked about these meetings, it seems to be their favorite hang. It’s their Central Perk, if you will. Now, you’re probably going to ask me, Dr. G. Where is this shrine? I cannot tell you.
Dr G 13:41 Oh, no, come on.
Dr Rad 13:43 I know. So we don’t know an awful lot about either the goddess Voltumna, who is associated with this particular shrine, we know she’s a very early Etruscan goddess, we know that there seems to be some sort of connection between her and the Volsinii or the Volscini. So presumably, somewhere in their region, their part of the world, but we really have no firm idea of where this particular shrine was. And we don’t know an awful lot about her as a goddess, we just know that this is obviously an important place for the Etruscans to come together and it gets mentioned a few times.
Dr G 14:23 All right, so they get together this shrine of Voltumna, goddess of the unknown, to see about what they’re gonna do. Sounds exciting so far.
Dr Rad 14:33 Yes, exactly. So there’s heaps of people at this meeting as they’re discussing whether they should get involved and make this a wider Etruscan versus Rome showdown, or whether they should just let they deal with it themselves.
Dr G 14:47 Do we come together and grind Rome under the Etrurian heel? Or do we just let they try to navigate this situation?
Dr Rad 14:55 Well, we can probably understand why they’re a little bit should we because lest we forget this all apparently started because the people have they suddenly were very rude to. And so maybe the dress codes don’t want to go to war because the people have a had bad manners.
Dr G 15:16 And that should never be rewarded.
Dr Rad 15:18 Exactly, exactly. So they’re very unsure. They’re going backwards and forwards and they’re, they’re really not sure what they want to do. Meanwhile, the siege that the Romans have started against Veii doesn’t really go anywhere, because some of the military tribunes as well as a portion of the Roman forces had to go and leave to deal with the Volscians. And it was like, ‘Come on, Volscians we’re sieging here, we’re sieging here!’
Dr G 15:46 Oh, Rome, nothing is gonna let down a siege more than moving your troops away from the siege position.
Dr Rad 15:53 It is siege rules of warfare 101. And that’s really all I’ve got for 405, Dr. G.
Dr G 16:03 Intriguing. Okay. Now, the things that I do have for 405 do not pertain to Rome in any way, shape, or form. I have Diodorus Siculus.
Dr Rad 16:14 Oh, okay.
Dr G 16:15 And as we know, he’s a little bit untrustworthy at times, but he’s trying to do a universal history of the Mediterranean. And Rome isn’t where it’s at right now. He knows that, the Romans don’t. And so he generally speaking doesn’t have a lot to say about them. But he does have some things to say about the unfolding situation in Sicily, and what’s going on with the Carthaginians. Because Sicily has on the eastern coast of Sicily, it is now under the control of a tyrant called Dionysius. And that’s fine, clearly a Greek. But he now wants to take the war to Carthage. Now the Greeks and the Carthaginians have been squabbling over Sicily for a while. And that’s fine. But now we start to learn more about this tyrants character, right. And he’s not just willing to take Carthage on, he wants to sort of launch an offensive rather than waiting for the Carthaginians to come to Sicily, he’s like that, we got to take the fight to that. And then he’s like, ‘how am I going to raise the morale of my people in order to bring this about?’ And so he gets down in the trenches, basically, and starts putting in the hard yards to help build defensive walls. And to put in the work required just in case the Carthaginians do turn up before he’s able to do the offensive. So there’s a sense in which he’s building his charismatic profile as a Greek tyrant in Sicily, and the people like he’s out in the field, he’s building a wall. Look at those, Look at those well oiled arms.
Dr Rad 17:53 Now, we should just say that generally people shouldn’t feel excited about a political leader building a wall.
Dr G 18:01 I wouldn’t recommend it generally.
Dr Rad 18:02 No, no, it’s very different in ancient times.
Dr G 18:05 In ancient times, the wall is a pretty good idea. In modern times, I wouldn’t, I’m not on the side of the wall. But nevertheless, he seems to recruit this reputation for one being willing to be part of the building process, which I can’t foresee in this modern period ever really quite happening. But yeah, that’s it. That’s all I’ve got. I did not know about the shrine of Voltumna, although I’m going to look her up because that sounds really interesting to me.
Dr Rad 18:36 Definitely.
Dr G 18:38 And that’s it, there’s nothing going on. There’s nothing going on.
Dr Rad 18:41 There’s nothing going on apart from a siege that has stalled and presumably, we’ve got some more conflict with the Volscii on the horizon, so let’s transition into 404 BCE.
So Dr. G, do we have as many military tribunes with consular power for 404 as we did for 405?
Dr G 19:29 Oh, Look, it’s a mess. There’s six more military tribunes with consular power. And again, I don’t have heaps of detail to give you but I mean, I do have slightly more than I had last year. So it’s good news. But like let’s get through this epic list of names. We have Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus consul of 410, military tribune with consular power in 415. Manius Sergius Fidenas: we’re not sure about his exact name. So Livy apparently has Marcus as the praenomen. But the Fasti Capitolini lists the abbreviation M with the apostrophe, which is Manius. So there could be some discrepancies there in our source material. We have Publius Cornelius Maluginensis.
Dr Rad 20:25 Oh that’s a horrible name. Maluginensis.
Dr G 20:30 Maluginensis. Hmmm, yeah. When and we’re not really quite sure how this particular Cornelii fits into the broad again structure, either. Not really. It’s a bit of doubt about where this figure fits in. Nevertheless, we have a Cornelii in here. We have a second Cornelii in Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus,
Dr Rad 20:53 Ah one of the Cossii.
Dr G 20:54 Yeah, and very familiar as well, was military tribune in 406.
Dr Rad 20:59 Yes, yes.
Dr G 21:01 Then we have Kaeso Fabius Ambustus.
Dr Rad 21:04 Ooo a fabulous Fabian.
Dr G 21:05 Yeah, so fabulous Fabian, and they still seem to be some discrepancy about the praenomen of this guy as well. Some people see it as Gaius. So that would be the C abbreviation. And sometimes it’s the K abbreviation for Kaeso.
Dr Rad 21:25 That is unusual.
Dr G 21:27 It is unusual. And it means that we might actually be dealing with two different people, right? Is this Kaeso? Or is this Gaius? Later on we’re going to have somebody with a very similar name, but a different praenomen. And so we’re not sure two people, maybe one person with two heads.
Dr Rad 21:44 One of these is just like the other.
Dr G 21:49 And lastly, Spurius Nautius Rutilus, who was consul in 411 and military tribune with consular power in 419 and 416. So a lot of a lot of names. But what is going on?
Dr Rad 22:06 I know, I know, it’s a lot. Okay. So there is definitely some military action in 404. Let’s start with the Volscians because of course, they had to interrupt this seige against Veii to go and deal with them. So there was a big pitched battle with the Volscians between Ferentium and Ecetra, et cetera, et cetera.
Dr G 22:30 Okay.
Dr Rad 22:31 And the Romans were victorious.
Dr G 22:35 Intriguing.
Dr Rad 22:37 I know they’ve been doing pretty well against the Volscians of late. The tribunes then decided they were going to besiege a Volscian town, one Artena.
Dr G 22:49 Ah, yes, now I do have some details on Artena.
Dr Rad 22:52 Excellent.
Dr G 22:55 Now, unfortunately, it is one of these places, like so many in the ancient world, where we do not know the location of it. But there is a modern town called Artena, which is about 40 kilometers south east of Rome.
Dr Rad 23:11 Okay, that sounds kind of about right.
Dr G 23:14 It sounds kind of about right. Yeah. And the reason it sounds kind of about right, is because that this place changed its name in the 1870s, based on the theory that it was the location of the ancient Volscian town. So this town was known as Montefortino for many years. So a completely different name.
Dr Rad 23:38 Oh, I actually have heard of that place. I have no idea why. But I have, yeah.
Dr G 23:42 And they got this idea that maybe it was the location of the ancient Artena. So then they changed their whole town’s name to reflect that. So it’s a bit of a furphy because we’re still not sure.
Dr Rad 23:56 Well, that’s confidence. Yeah.
Dr G 23:59 And it’s also the case that this modern town of Artena is also speculated to be one of the potential locations for the Volscian city of Ecetra.
Dr Rad 24:09 Right. Okay.
Dr G 24:10 So, we don’t – to add confusion into the mix. The geography is all over the place.
Dr Rad 24:18 Yeah. That seems to be the theme that we’re talking about places that we don’t know where they are. All right, so the Romans do this by doing a bit of a sortie against Artena. This this place that apparently does not exist. The Volscians were therefore driven all the way back into the city by the Romans, the Romans were able to penetrate the city and they were able to capture everything except the citadel of Artena.
Dr G 24:50 Wow, okay. That’s pretty devastating for the Volscii, I would say.
Dr Rad 24:54 It is, but it does mean that it’s not quite the complete victory that the Romans would want. They’ve got A bunch of warriors that are holed up in the citadel. So the Romans have to then besieged the citadel.
Dr G 25:06 Oh, no!
Dr Rad 25:08 I know no matter what they tried Dr. G, they just could not win. The people inside. I mean, what’s, what’s their motivation, I suppose for giving up at this point in time, they’re not going to surrender, they’re going to stay there until the end, they had very cleverly move the town’s green supply inside the citadel before the Romans had arrived. So they’re also not going to starve to death super quickly, apparently.
Dr G 25:37 Okay, this spells bad news for Rome. Not only do they have their ongoing yet kind of failing siege with Veii, they’re now in a situation where they’re trying to besiege somewhere else, which has got a really clear food supply. And when we’re thinking about the ancient world, I think we have to keep in mind that food supply and food security is a really big concern.
Dr Rad 26:02 Absolutely.
Dr G 26:03 So I think in our modern age of like, hyper convenience and food availability, that we don’t tend to think about this in terms of the the worry and concern and the ongoing engagement with food supply, that would have been part and parcel of the ancient world.
Dr Rad 26:22 Definitely. But I mean, I think the interesting thing is, as we often talk about that, that will probably change. Climate change is going to affect what we can grow, where we can grow it, I mean, it already I shouldn’t say is going to affect it is already affecting our ability to grow things. Like for example, if you’re a fan of wine, I know that there are certain regions in the world that have had to change the types of grapes that they use, because the previous types of grapes can’t grow in the warmer climates that now exists. But eventually, you know, it’s going to get too warm to grow things anyway. So it’s just going to be one of those things that we are going to have to I think engage with because, yeah, it is going to become part of our reality. And that’s also applies to things like the damaging fishing practices that we use are damaging agricultural practices that we use. We have at the moment, sure, plenty of food in certain parts of the world. But that’s not going to remain the case unless we start paying more attention to where our food comes from and how it is produced.
Dr G 27:21 Indeed, exactly. I echo your sentiments.
Dr Rad 27:26 Anyway, to return to this particular citadel with its grain supply. So the Romans obviously wanted to capture this place, lock, stock and barrel. They don’t want to give up with a citadel. You know, still being held on to that’s not going to be the victory that they’re after. So they’re in a terrible mood, because they’re like, ‘God, dammit, we’ve done so well up until this point. The citadel is just a thorn in our side.’ But then a slave betrayed the people inside the citadel.
Dr G 27:59 Gasp how dare they?
Dr Rad 28:01 I feel like we’ve had stories a bit like this before doesn’t mean that they’re not true. Obviously, it makes sense that things would play out in this way, but…
It is a bit of a literary trope as well, isn’t it?
It is it is. Yeah. So the slave apparently allowed some of the Roman soldiers inside by showing them Sure, a more difficult, steeper approach, but like an alternative route that they weren’t perhaps aware of, or thought that they could use because it was a little bit more challenging. And so as a result, the Romans were able to capture the citadel, they killed all of the sentries, and the rest of the people obviously, who were left inside the citadel, were just so freaked out that the Romans suddenly appear in their midst that they surrender without too much more of a fight.
Dr G 28:47 Wow. Okay, so the slave’s like, ‘So if you’re partial to being a bit of a mountain goat, yeah, I can show you the secret entry.’
Dr Rad 28:56 Exactly. I thought. Yeah, so this is obviously good news for the Romans. Perhaps this next bit explains why we aren’t entirely sure where Artena is because the Romans apparently demolish the entire town, paying particularly close attention to the pesky citadel in the process.
Dr G 29:16 Well, well, well, somebody needs to write a stern letter to modern Artena and be like, ‘Excuse me, you were destroyed.’
Dr Rad 29:24 Exactly. Yeah, the Romans were so annoyed by that whole situation that they tore it apart brick by brick.
Dr G 29:31 Fair enough.
Dr Rad 29:32 So with that done, the Romans feel like they can officially leave Volscian territory and they can now fully dedicate themselves to this conflict with Veii.
Dr G 29:44 All right, okay, so the siege is back on.
Dr Rad 29:47 Well, I don’t know that this siege was ever off. It was more just said it was maybe it wasn’t getting all their attention and taking on they you know, the Romans know that they’re not a pushover, so they they probably need to throw everything they’ve got at it, you know?
Dr G 30:02 Yeah. And Veii seems to be in a pretty defensive position, it sort of jumps out on a bit of a ledge. So it’s not like it’s an easy place to just rock up and take, you’re definitely going to have to spend some time figuring out how to take it.
Dr Rad 30:18 Yes, exactly. Now, as for our slave who helped the Romans to achieve this victory, they were apparently, I should say, he was apparently given his freedom, and given the name Servilius Romanus, plus the property of two families as a reward for his betrayal.
Dr G 30:41 Oh, how strange.
Dr Rad 30:43 I know, I know. This is kind of an interesting little naming thing for us. Because that name, it’s obviously trying to make us try to give him a name so that he would fit in with the kids on the playground, you know, he’s got like a Latin name. But it is obviously signaling something about where he came from. In theory. Now, there’s, as we know, there’s huge amounts of discussion about the name Servilius, because one of the kings of Rome had that same name. And we know it doesn’t necessarily mean that you were a slave.
Dr G 31:17 But there are a hints, like, it’s that sort of thing where it’s like, you’ve got a like a little bit of a rhyme, you’ve got like a sound connection. So you might be able to say, strictly speaking, doesn’t mean that they’re a slave. But when you say their name, everybody’s gonna think it.
Dr Rad 31:34 Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it might be indicating something about the origin. You know, like, not everybody in the family obviously, is a slave. But it might be saying something about where the fame the family came from. So this particular name, Servilius, Romanus that’s giving a fairly clear idea of what this guy’s origins were.
Dr G 31:53 Like, ‘Sure, you can stay with us and be free. What we’re going to call you though, is a slave of Rome.’
Dr Rad 31:58 Yes, exactly.
Dr G 32:00 That’s your name.
Dr Rad 32:01 That’s your name now. Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 32:03 Like, ‘Oh, gee, thanks, guys. I feel so free.’
Dr Rad 32:07 Now, there is a bit of discussion, actually, in Livy himself about the confusion about Artena and its location.
Dr G 32:15 Okay, well, that does not surprise me at all.
Dr Rad 32:18 Yeah, so apparently, some people thought that Artena was actually part of Veii’s territory, not Volscian territory.
Dr G 32:26 That would be awkward for the people who have named their modern town Artena.
Dr Rad 32:32 I know, Livy, however, does not believe this, because whilst there was a city, more towards the north that had the same name, it was apparently demolish under the Roman kings.
Dr G 32:47 Okay, well, that’s even more unusual.
Dr Rad 32:51 I know. I know. So there’s just a huge amount of confusion about this particular place. Some scholars have even suggested that maybe it shouldn’t be ARtena, but ORtena?
Dr G 33:02 Wow. I’m not gonna wait into that debate. OR not maybe.
Dr Rad 33:09 Yeah, exactly. I think we can just safely say, nobody has any idea where this is. We simply do not have the evidence. No, but I think it does make sense that, you know, this is a little Volscian conflict. You know, it makes sense that wherever they were fighting, it was the Volscians they were fighting at this point in time.
Dr G 33:30 And also that sense in which Rome’s forces are split. So they’re trying to do things on a number of different places. And that means that their chances of success in any place is compromised, because their forces are stretched thin.
Dr Rad 33:48 Yes, exactly. Now, that kind of wraps up for for, for me, they both pretty brief years, we can start 403 if you would like and it’s a pretty monster year.
Dr G 34:00 I think we should save 403.
Dr Rad 34:02 Okay.
Dr G 34:03 Because it is it is an epic time to embark upon. And I think the I want to savour that.
Dr Rad 34:12 Fair enough. That’s fair. No, it is going to be a bit of a gigantic year, I think but definitely
Dr G 34:16 Foreshadowing, foreshadowing
Dr Rad 34:17 For sure. Yeah, definitely. I think we can say by the sudden increase in the amount of military tribunes with consular power, we can see what’s happening for Rome at this point in time.
Dr G 34:28 So the only other detail I have to add to any of this is that Diodorus Siculus does hint that there is an increase in the number of colonists that Rome sends to a city called Velitrae.
Dr Rad 34:43 Oh, okay. We did we have talked about Velitrae, yeah.
Dr G 34:46 Yeah, so this is a Latin city. It’s in the southern foothills of the Albian Hills, which are the ones just just to the southeast of Rome. You can see them from the city and this means that maybe trying to like, establish a greater foothold in that area. It’s not at all clear why they would be doing that, at this stage, particularly when they’ve got forces stretched over a number of different battle fronts. But nevertheless, this is a little detail that we’re given. So Velitrae is part of the broader Latin league in 498. And then then it’s conquered by the Romans in 494. And from that point onwards, it’s a Roman colony, apparently. So even though there’s some tussles and disputes they seem to be trying to reinforce an area, which is a little bit closer to Volscian territory, as well, potentially.
Dr Rad 35:41 I remembered reading about that. And I just suddenly thought, Oh, my God, like, it’s just one of those things where it’s a timing that’s out, but I thought I was just quickly sneakily trying to, to check it. But
Dr G 35:52 Look, there doesn’t seem to be – it’s not adding to the narrative, particularly because I don’t know what, like I don’t have any sort of the puzzle pieces of like Livy’s narrative to hook this into. This is something that comes up in Diodorus Siculus, he might be off by a couple of years, that’s possible as well. But he does also name a whole bunch of the military tribunes for this year, and he gets most of them right.
Dr Rad 36:15 Well, yeah. And it does make sense because we know that Rome is suddenly becoming much more aggressive and expansionist, and they are, they are establishing more colonies and that sort of thing at this point in time and more control, sometimes, you know, they capture it, and then they lose it fairly quickly, again, but certainly the intention of not just focusing on their internal problems and defending themselves. They’re definitely trying to build something here. Definitely.
Dr G 36:43 Exactly. All right. So that’s – what – 405 and 404.
Dr Rad 36:48 That is 405 and 404, which means, Dr. G., it is time for the Partial Pick!
Dr G 37:01 The Partial Pick. So Rome has the possibility of gaining a maximum of 50, golden eagles. They are rated across five categories with 10 each. Let’s see how they do.
Dr Rad 37:17 Let’s see indeed. So what’s our first category Dr. G?
Dr G 37:21 Military clout.
Dr Rad 37:23 Okay, not so great in 405. But there’s some stuff happening in 404.
Dr G 37:30 I feel like they kind of balance each other out. It’s not like they’re successful of their seige of Veii. We know that’s going to continue on for a long time.
Dr Rad 37:38 That’s gonna take a while. Yeah, yeah.
Dr G 37:41 And they are eventually successful in Artena.
Dr Rad 37:44 They are.
Dr G 37:45 So…
Dr Rad 37:46 Artena seems to be fairly easy. It’s just a citadel that takes them a little bit of work. And even then it doesn’t seem like that much effort.
Dr G 37:54 Yeah, like, once they know the secret path. They’re all good.
Dr Rad 37:56 Exactly. So, look. Ahhh but I didn’t know what as you say, I don’t know what a big deal Artena is. Certainly the fact that they raze it to the ground, they’re sending a pretty clear message.
Dr G 38:07 It is, I probably give them maybe a four. Like it’s a pretty big thing to take something and then raze it to the ground. That doesn’t seem to be the Roman way very much in this period. They tend to take things and then leave again. Or they tend to take things and then put colonists in and hope for the best.
Dr Rad 38:24 This is true, but four? I mean, come on. That’s a failing mark, Dr. G. I think we gotta give them a six, surely?
Dr G 38:30 Well, it’s not like they’re really winning. I don’t even know where this place is.
Dr Rad 38:37 That’s because they razed it to the ground! No, I think it has to be a six. They did capture this place and they were also successful in the other battle.
Dr G 38:46 All right. I will I think we need to be careful here because if I let you have a six, I won’t negotiate later on a low score.
Dr Rad 38:51 Okay, that’s fine. I just feel like this one. This one needs to be a six, I think.
Dr G 38:57 All right. All right.
Dr Rad 38:58 Okay. I, I appreciate the six.
Dr G 39:03 Our second category is diplomacy.
Dr Rad 39:07 Okay. Well, yeah, not a lot of that going on with warfare on pretty much every front.
Dr G 39:13 Yeah, I mean, can you consider their discussion with Servilius Romanus as a negotiation? I think it’s a defection.
Dr Rad 39:23 It is. It’s definitely that yeah, no, I think that there’s no diplomacy to be had. I mean, we this would this wouldn’t be points for the Romans, we definitely see the Etruscans practicing some diplomacy, but I don’t think that right, we should get the score for them having a meeting.
Dr G 39:38 We’re gonna have to change the whole Partial Pick, when Rome has like substantial enemies who are doing better than them.
Dr Rad 39:44 Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 39:44 We’ll come back to that. So zero.
Dr Rad 39:46 Okay.
Dr G 39:47 All right. The third category is expansion.
Dr Rad 39:51 Well, as you say, like I’m willing to say that this could be a lower score because there’s no mention made of what they do with this Volscian city that they raze to the ground, it doesn’t seem like they have any interest in holding it.
Dr G 40:09 So they don’t seem to be including it as part of their territory…
Dr Rad 40:13 No…
Dr G 40:14 if they’re raising it to the ground, they kind of just getting rid of it and being done with it.
Dr Rad 40:17 Yeah.
Dr G 40:18 Having said that they send more colonists to Velitrae
Dr Rad 40:21 If Diodorus Siculus is to be believed.
Dr G 40:24 Well, how many options do I have up my sleeve?
Dr Rad 40:28 I agree. Okay, so maybe what like a two or three?
Dr G 40:33 Well, look, maybe a one. Look, let’s face it. They already had Velitrae.
Dr Rad 40:37 Right. Yeah. True.
Dr G 40:38 They said you’re just adding people to it. Maybe if we believe Diodorus.
Dr Rad 40:42 Okay, one.
Dr G 40:45 Okay. The fourth category is Virtus.
Dr Rad 40:49 Okay, not really, we don’t I mean, for all the military tributes with consular power that we have none of them mentioned by name apart from when they actually get the position.
Dr G 41:01 Yeah, none of them are coming through a standout characters who have led the charge lead the sage broken into the citadel, gained the glory gotten the triumph.
Dr Rad 41:12 I know.
Dr G 41:13 Livy’s letting us down. There must be a real gap in his source material as well, at this point.
Dr Rad 41:17 Yeah, well, and I feel that the next year is going to be a big one for personalities. So maybe he’s saving himself.
Dr G 41:26 Alright, so zero on virtus.
Dr Rad 41:29 Yep.
Dr G 41:29 And our final category is the citizen score.
Dr Rad 41:34 Very little detail on this front. Dr. G. I mean, they’re away at war, which they’re either winning or not losing. So, I don’t know.
Dr G 41:44 Wow.
Dr Rad 41:47 They’re still perhaps feeling pretty pleased with themselves for this whole military pay situation, but…
Dr G 41:53 This is true, but we can’t judge the citizens on their past efforts, really.
Dr Rad 42:00 No, I know. It’s an awkward one.
Dr G 42:02 I think we don’t know enough to really give them a score. So that’s, in a way, this is not Rome’s fault. We because we just simply don’t know. It’s not like there’s any detail coming through of a conflict of the orders, or a levy, or citizens falling a battle or poor strategic decisions being made that leads to the loss of life.
Dr Rad 42:23 This is true, this is true. I mean –
Dr G 42:25 We don’t have anything,
Dr Rad 42:26 We have the victory. And we have the fact that they capture the city and everything inside it, which presumably means there’s some booty to be had. But even then there’s no specific mentions. I don’t know how we want to handle that.
Dr G 42:40 Well, I would definitely be taking the grain out of Artena, that citadel so that’s going to be a win.
Dr Rad 42:46 Yes, exactly. That’s what I need. But where’s it going? Like who’s getting it? They dividing it up amongst the men, Dr. G?
Dr G 42:53 Hmm, these are the things that we cannot account for. And I think by that kind of standard, if we want to be really generous, we could assume that those things are benefiting the citizens, in which case we might give them a two or something.
Dr Rad 43:06 Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. I’m happy to give them a two. All right. All right. So Dr. G, unfortunately, that means Rome, not doing so hot. They get a grand total of 9 out of 50 golden eagles.
Dr G 43:22 A solid loss.
Dr Rad 43:26 Not looking great, but next year will definitely be interesting, I think. So we’ll have to see.
Dr G 43:29 I suspect they might be on the up and up.
Dr Rad 43:33 There’s definitely going to be some action around they the question of Veii, yes.
Dr G 43:41 I’m looking forward to finding out what’s coming up in 403.
Dr Rad 43:45 I’ll see you then.
Dr G 43:54 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time if you’re keen to chip in. You can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book, ‘Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome’ at partialhistorians.com. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode - Augustus' Mausoleum with Dr Victoria Austen
Mar 28, 2024
It is not often that we are fortunate enough to get to chat to one of our amazing guests a second time, but sometimes the gods are just that kind. We sat down to speak to the one and only Dr Victoria Austen about Augustus’ mausoleum.
Special Episode – Augustus’ Mausoleum
Dr Victoria Austen holds a MA and PhD from King’s College London. She has lectured in the Classics at the University of Winnipeg and is currently the Robert A. Oden, Jr. Postdoctoral Fellow for Innovation in the Humanities and Classics at Carleton College, Minnesota. Her monograph Analysing the Boundaries of the Roman Garden: (Re)Framing the Hortus’ was released in 2023 as part of the Bloomsbury Ancient Environments Series. Vicky has recently been speaking for the American Institute of Archaeology on gardens and commemoration.
‘The Mausoleum of Augustus’ from Pietro Santi Bartoli, Gli antichi sepolcri ii, 1727. courtesy of Carleton College Special Collections.
What is Augustus’ mausoleum?
Augustus did not rest on his laurels after winning the Battle of Actium against Cleopatra and Mark Antony. He set about consolidating his political position and figuring out exactly what that would entail.
Augustus set about transforming the city itself as part of his political machinations. Some of his key monuments include the Ara Pacis, the Horologium Augusti (think giant sun dial), and the mausoleum.
He started construction on this tomb in 28 BCE and positioned it on the Campus Martius (Field of Mars). This is much earlier than you might expect. Augustus’ position was not unchallenged and there was still much to be decided regarding his status in Rome. Nonetheless, Augustus set about building this large circular mausoleum, intending to use it not just for himself, but his family.
Eventually the tomb would house the remains of numerous members of Augustus’ family, as well as the princeps himself. Names you might recognise include Agrippa (his BFF and the husband of his daughter Julia), Marcellus (his nephew), Octavia (his sister), and Gaius and Lucius (his adopted sons).
After Augustus’ death, his family continued to use the mausoleum. Livia (his wife), the emperors Tiberius and Claudius, Germanicus, Antonia Minor and Britannicus would all find their way to this monument.
However, there was not an open-door policy for anyone with Julio-Claudian blood. The mausoleum became a sort of litmus test of who had fallen from grace and would be punished with exclusion… forever! You might already have spotted that Julia, Augustus’ only biological child, and her daughter Julia, did not make the cut. Ouch! Nor did the emperors Caligula and Nero. You had to earn your spot.
Donati, A. (1584-1640) Roma vetus ac recens, courtesy of Carleton College Special Collections.
What happened to the mausoleum?
As with so many ancient monuments, the mausoleum has been repurposed many times. Tune in to hear about the Soderini family and their resurrection of the space, as well as good old Mussolini, who just loved to forge connections between himself and figures like Augustus.
Things to Look Out For:
Augustus getting BURNT by Dr Rad on numerous occasions.
Good-natured tolerance from Drs A and G about afore-mentioned Augustan burns.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Read. And
Dr G 0:30 I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:01 Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of the partial historians. Dr. Rad and myself, Dr. G are thrilled to welcome back Dr. Victoria Austen to the show. And you might remember her fantastic conversation with us a little while back now about Augustus and temporal space and representation. And today we’re going to be looking at Augustus his mausoleum. So a quick bio. Dr. Victoria Austen holds an MA and a PhD from King’s College London. She has lectured in the classics at the University of Winnipeg and is currently the Robert A Odin Junior Postdoctoral Fellow for innovation in the humanities and classics at Carleton College Minnesota. Her research interests span the Latin literature of the late Republic and early empire, ancient Roman gardens and landscapes race and ethnicity in the ancient world, the reception of classical myth and the integration of digital humanities into the classroom. Austen’s monograph Analysing the Boundaries of the Roman Garden: Reframing the Hortus was released in 2023, as part of the Bloomsbury ancient environment series, and coming up, Vicky is currently partway through a series of talks for the American Institute of Archaeology on gardens and commemoration. Welcome back, Vicky.
Dr Victoria Austen 2:34 Yeah, it’s so great to be back. I’m so so excited to talk more things, Augustus as we know, I’m a big fan.
Dr G 2:41 Me too. Dr. Rad is already
Dr Victoria Austen 2:44 Eye roll already.
Dr Rad 2:46 I was I was going to say, Look, I’m very happy to see you again, but less happy to see your friend. Look, you know what, I am going to embrace it because I have some fantastic dad jokes here. So Augustus is mausoleum, you might say that everyone in the Julio Claudian period is just dying to get in.
Dr Victoria Austen 3:14 I mean, I
Dr Rad 3:20 so Look, let’s start with the basics. Dr. Austen, or Vicky, if I may be so what is this thing? How did it come about?
Dr Victoria Austen 3:30 Yeah, so this is basically where Augustus wants to be buried. bold move in that, you know, he creates it when he’s still living like this is very much his project. It’s not like something that people put up for him. He’s like, No, I’m gonna create my own team structure. And I’m gonna model it on potentially one of the seven ancient wonders of the world. Because, you know, he never He doesn’t do anything small. So this is why it’s called the mausoleum of Augustus, because it’s based on we think maybe the Mausolus tomb, which was one of the seven ancient wonders of the world. So timewise it was finished in 28 BCE. So this is, you know, still kind of pretty early on actually, in his principle, you know, when you think he was there for you know, good, good more 30 years or so. So he was he was thinking about his afterlife, very concerned about his commemoration.
Dr Rad 4:26 Yeah. Like, yeah, like an Egyptian ruler. Yeah, thing. He’s just very focused on that end goal.
Dr Victoria Austen 4:34 And kind of like structurally as well. It’s obviously it’s very impressive. It’s like this huge kind of concrete structure, which and concrete in itself is a kind of Roman innovation, which was kind of relatively still new at this time period. You know, they’re still experimenting with oh, we can use this new material. So we can do round things instead of like, oh, square things. So it’s this big kind of dark, circular structure. domed and it’s planted kind of all the way around, we think to kind of emulate what create a kind of monumental version of a traditional elektrischen type tomb, which is called a timless, which is, you know, in its most primitive form, that would be kind of like just a mound of earth. That was kind of your tomb spot. So August just kind of seems to have taken that idea, and then just done it, you know, huge, huge monumental scale as as he likes to do with everything.
Dr Rad 5:29 It sounds extremely presumptuous. Yeah. Within keeping of his character, yes.
Dr G 5:36 Very much. So. And I’m particularly thinking about the date of 28 BCE, because this is right before 27, which is usually considered a landmark for him in terms of like sealing the deal on his power. And he’s already out there being like, oh, no, guys, I am a big deal. I know it, you guys know it, I’ve killed everybody who hates me by now.
Dr Victoria Austen 5:57 And I think particularly because there’s this idea of it’s such a big structure that clearly he was thinking of it in terms of it wasn’t just going to be for him, it was going to be for other family members. So it’s like, it’s going to be like a dynastic kind of monument in itself. And I think, like you said, the fact that he’s creating that so early in his principles that kind of speaks to, oh, he may have been doing all of his, I’m just restoring the Republic schtick. But, you know, I’m beside he’s like, No, actually, I’m going to create this huge monument to the my family, or my heirs. So like that idea of like the family, dynastic structure, I think is very telling that he’s already creating a very obvious building and structure like super early.
Dr Rad 6:48 Really to be fair, he wasn’t a well man. Well, no,
Dr Victoria Austen 6:52 I think I think that’s part of it. He had so much anxiety over death. And you know, then all of his heirs keep dying, as we know, along the way,
Dr Rad 7:01 it came in handy.
Dr Victoria Austen 7:02 He didn’t die, you know. So I think I think it also the early day also represents a bit of that anxiety over you know, I’ve got to start thinking about my death and what happens when I die. Like, pretty early on. Really? Yeah,
Dr Rad 7:18 definitely. Yeah, Look, that’s
Dr G 7:20 tough, isn’t it that anxiety and and also that monumental ism, what a fascinating character. Yeah, I don’t understand Dr. Rad while you’re not so interested. I
Dr Rad 7:29 am intrigued, but it’s more of a fact that I’m like, Why can’t people just see through him?
Dr Victoria Austen 7:37 This last time, like I like I love him to study. But doesn’t mean I think he’s a great guy. I also see through him.
Dr Rad 7:47 Yeah, I think it’s well, I think it’s more Dr. G. I’m talking to me, she she genuinely likes him.
Dr G 7:56 I think it’s just because in the portraiture, he comes across as being relatively good looking. So I’m willing to forgive him from things. So, but that’s just me being really basic. Yeah. But thinking about the mausoleum and its location, like To what extent is it sort of part of his broader sort of sense of building sort of like a topographical thing for himself in a Gustin sort of way of thinking about Rome? Yeah.
Dr Victoria Austen 8:20 And so I think I was actually talking about this very topic with my students, actually, last week, because we were, we were doing the Augustan period, and Roman Art and Archaeology. And I was, I was saying that one of his innovations really is, you know, late Republican building projects, like kind of Pompey’s theatre complex, Julius Caesar had his forum. You know, it’s this idea that you’re kind of entering a bit of a zone that is, it’s like the Pompey zone, or the Julius Caesar zone, and we’re kind of entering those spaces, and it’s framed by that individual power. But what Augustus does is he’s like, all of Rome is now my zone. It’s not just a small bar. It’s like, I’m doing this everywhere. So again, like in terms of scale, that’s what’s kind of innovative and the mausoleum is part of the Campus Martius which he is one of his kind of three main areas in the city that he really focuses on for his redevelopment. So we have the mausoleum, but we also have the our pockets, which I spoke a lot about on the last time I was with you. And then there’s also this monumental sundial as well the heartland and they’re all very close together in this Campus Martius area and I think again, it speaks to this kind of projection of a new type of power, because you know, you have your mausoleum, which is thinking about kind of commemoration long term, but at a family kind of dynastic level, you’ve got the altar of peace, the our parkas eventually, which is, you know, commemorating I’ve bought peace to Rome for the first time. And then with the sundial, I think that’s, that’s particularly interesting because it kind of I think it’s also symbolic that he is kind of not just In charge of space, but also his controlling time, as well as all these three monuments, kind of we’re all working together kind of past, present, future, there’s like this temporal element. And I think so you can’t just think of the mausoleum, you know, as a static kind of isolated entity in itself, I think a lot of its meaning also comes from the fact that it’s connected to these other very important Augusto monuments. And you have to imagine, if you’re a Roman, you’re walking through the Campus Martius, like, you’re gonna be able to see all three of these things within a very short walk, you’ll be able to see them from each other, like they’re very, very close together,
Dr G 10:40 and this association with the Campus Martius, in particular, this idea that there is a whole Augustan precinct and there is a really long history of how the Campus Martius is used. And now it’s being sort of it’s evolving under Augustus is sort of building regime as well.
Dr Victoria Austen 10:56 Yeah, absolutely. And I think what, what I think is fascinating, and also just kind of very telling about the building project in the campus. Martius is it’s very representative of so many things that will go sisters in that he’s kind of seen kind of political figures kind of use art and architecture and space and these building projects, to project their own individual power, but they never had the opportunity to kind of extend that on mass scale. And so now he’s in this position where he can start to do this, in a way he kind of takes all of the seeds that have been done at an individual level. And he’s just putting it all together, doing it to a huge, huge scale, and just really hammering it home, like everywhere you go. There’s this sense of Augustus kind of framing your experience of the city like you have to imagine that there’s not many places like right in the core, where you’re not far from an Augusten building project because if you’re not in the Campus Martius you might be near the Palatine Hill, that’s where his house is, or you’re in the forum and he redevelop the forum. So there’s like, everywhere you go, there’s this kind of just presence of him. And kind of framing your experience of the whole city, I think, which is very, very innovative. I
Dr Rad 12:14 think of him. It sounds like my waking nightmare.
Dr G 12:19 You’re surrounded on
Dr Rad 12:21 escape. But I do appreciate I do appreciate that long before Doc Brown and Marty McFly, Augustus was thinking about the space time continuum and how to disrupt it. Yes,
Dr Victoria Austen 12:31 he really was. And I think there’s there’s a famous that kind of famous theory, I suppose about these kinds of three, three monuments, or kind of like working together in the campus. Martius is it has been suggested that the shadow of the sundial would go directly through the entrance of the Ara Pacis on Augustus’ birthday. So it’s like, yeah, it’s basically I have conquered time, like I am in charge. And I think, you know, Julius Caesar, his uncle had her redone the calendar. And so the sundial was now with the Julian calendar in mind. And so again, it’s just this Yeah, it’s the way that space and time and with the mausoleum, there’s then this idea of like an afterlife. Like, even though I’m not there, you’re going to still be thinking about me. And it’s the same with our parkas. You know, it was set up with this annual sacrifice in mind, and that’s going to keep going on even when Augustus dies. So there’s this again, it’s like a kind of cyclical, eternal presence. I think that he’s trying to establish there.
Dr Rad 13:37 I’ll give it to him. He certainly does pay attention to detail and it suddenly hit me that Dr. G being an absolute Virgo. This must be what appeals to her. Oh my god.
Dr Victoria Austen 13:47 This is this is the connection. It’s I’m
Dr G 13:54 it is all beginning to make sense. I use just so organised. He’s thought of everything.
Dr Rad 14:01 I get it now and I will stop giving you crap about it.
Dr Victoria Austen 14:06 We can’t help it. It’s in the stars. Absolutely.
Dr Rad 14:09 Yeah. And I Look, this is probably my favourite part of Augustus has more saline to talk about because I mean, I’m sorry, there’s no other way to say it. But he’s such a dick, in that it’s very much about who’s allowed in who’s not. It’s my club. I’m gonna control that. Are you on the VIP list? Or are you not So who gets buried in this thing in the end and who gets left out because they’ve done something to upset him?
Dr Victoria Austen 14:35 Oh, that’s a really good question. I’m trying to think exactly. Who was in there. I know the last person that is in there is Nerva actually, but in terms of in terms of like the Julian accordions, I don’t know who is who
Dr Rad 14:49 we know that famously Julia obviously,
Dr Victoria Austen 14:53 does not. I bet she doesn’t get in there.
Dr Rad 14:55 She does not say for those of you who haven’t listened to our Millions of discussions about Augustus Julia is his one and only actual child, you’d think she’d be a shoo in. But no,
Dr Victoria Austen 15:08 yeah, but no, she’s, she’s morally Not, not on. Yeah, you would
Dr G 15:13 think in the end that, that in depth that he might allow it, you know, like, there’ll be some sort of forgiveness, but he’s absolutely no.
Dr Victoria Austen 15:21 And I think it really speaks to like the harshness of that like relationship and that he like, the the ability to, like, cut off the personal from the political that like, I’m, again, this speaks to its a dynastic monument, which is different from a family monument. And obviously, there are times when that overlaps, but the fact that as you said, it’s not a, it’s not by default that you get in there, like there are choices being made.
Dr G 15:53 And we see some like tragic moments, because obviously, Augustus is thinking about his own mortality, but he’s also spending a lot of his time trying to figure out who’s going to sort of come into place after him and a whole bunch of them die early. So like, my seller sends up in their Gaius and looses end up in there, you know, and it’s like, in a way, despite the fact that Augustus is probably a terribly power hungry kind of individual, you have to feel a little bit of compassion for the fact that he’s burying a lot of his young, male relatives that he had great hopes for. Yeah. And
Dr Victoria Austen 16:26 I think there is this sense that, you know, again, this may be speaks to why this was such an important building for him and that anxiety over the succession, you know, his entire project, it was only ever going to reach its complete fruition, if there was some kind of succession because the, you know, if that had not been secured, then there’s nothing to say that you couldn’t have just like gone back to a republic system, like, you know, it’s not until that moment that Tiberius actually comes in, and he becomes like the next emperor, that it’s like, oh, we can actually say now that we’re doing something different here than just like a one man thing. So I think I think it’s kind of possibly underestimated the amount of anxiety around that and just pick Yeah, he keeps picking these people, and then it’s like a curse and then they die. Like, I choose you, and now you’re dead. Like
Dr Rad 17:26 at the touch of death is like when Augusto says you’re gonna succeed me.
Dr Victoria Austen 17:30 And then he’s just left with Tiberius by the end.
Dr G 17:33 So it says explains Tiberius is reluctance you’ve seen the pattern. And he’s like, just say, No,
Dr Rad 17:38 yeah, don’t don’t Look at me. Yeah. But I mean, it to be fair, to be fair, because I suppose it functioned in this way during Augustus lifetime. It’s not just during Augustus, his lifetime that it is used as like a who’s in favour and who’s not kind of monument, that whole dynasty continue to use it in this way. Yeah.
Dr Victoria Austen 18:01 Yeah. So again, it’s like that idea of so much. It’s when we’re thinking about commemoration. And I think this idea of like memory, and who is allowed to be part of that memory, like so many, that is a political choice that is being made along the way. And I think I think that’s why I’m kind of fascinated with this temporal aspect and the the playing of time, because, you know, commemoration in general, it’s something you’re you’re doing in the present, but it obviously engages with the past, because it’s about kind of ancestors, but it also looks, Augustus is kind of looking to the future when he creates it, because it’s this idea of any kind of ironically ends up burying their, like, who would have been the future and then the future is kind of like changing in real time. And so I think there’s this really interesting, dynamic there with time. And, you know, one of the things that I’m particularly interested in, obviously, thinking about Gardens is that, you know, it’s created with lots of plants and greenery around it, which I think, again, speaks to this temporal kind of cyclical aspect that, you know, the plants are always there, but they, so they kind of are the same, but they’re not because they’re continuing because nature is continually evolving. So it’s like, it kind of appears to be this ever present feature, but that that feature isn’t itself kind of always moving. It’s not static. And so I think, again, he kind of taps into the power of plants, I suppose in that way to really enhance that kind of temporal aspect of the commemoration.
Dr Rad 19:38 Yeah, and it is kind of interesting to think that a lot of the people that end up getting buried in there are younger members of the of the dynasty, which I think kind of speaks to the fact that if you’re if you grow up to be an adult, if you live long enough, you’re gonna tick somebody off. Someone’s gonna
Dr Victoria Austen 19:57 Yeah, all the all the young ones, it’s just like didn’t have enough time to do anything?
Dr Rad 20:01 No, no, they were like, Well, you were five. We didn’t. We
Dr G 20:06 didn’t hate you. Yeah, except for Agrippa Postumus. Yes, you know, there’s always the exception.
Dr Victoria Austen 20:12 He’s, he’s, you know, he’s, he’s okay. He doesn’t annoy anyone.
Dr G 20:19 But I getting back to this aspect of plants. So when we think about the Roman architectural landscape, it tends to be the case that people talk about the buildings a lot. And sometimes trees get mentioned. So in people’s like, sort of imagination of that space of Rome, it’s kind of like marble structures, clean streets, you know, it’s all happening. There’s carts and everything everywhere. And there’s not necessarily a lot of room or space to think about how nature is incorporated into some of that, but with Augustus is mausoleum, there is a deliberate incorporation of nature into parts of the structure. And I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit to that. Yeah.
Dr Victoria Austen 21:00 And I think the mausoleum is like a microcosm of what is going on in the Campus Martius, in general, in that there’s this idea of, rather than how our modern eyes might see it, as you said, it’s like a series of individual monuments and the monuments that comes first. And that’s the kind of thing that you focus on. And then maybe ideas of plantings and stuff are more peripheral, or you’re like, Oh, sure, they planted some trees. But I think we need to kind of invert that idea. And think of the Campus Martius itself is this huge kind of landscaped green kind of Park, almost like a kind of sacred grove, the sacral Adeleke type landscape, and within that are dotted a series of monuments. So I feel like actually, we need to think of it as the monuments are kind of part of this broader, kind of sacred esque type landscape, as opposed to, there are these monuments, and then there happens to be a few plantings around it. And I think that’s really crucial to kind of understanding the experience of the Campus Martius in general, because, you know, Augustus wants people to experience the sights and be there. And so you, you’re giving this kind of broad, open green space to a population who if you’re living in the city of Rome, you know, you don’t have your own garden. I mean, I think you have Roman Gardens is like from Pompeii, where you’ve got these individual houses, and they each have their own little nice courtyard garden. If you’re living in Rome, you’re in a stuffy apartment complex, sharing one room with, you know, 10,010 other people, and you don’t have access to nature in that way. And so these kinds of more, quote, unquote, public areas become really important. And I think Augustus really understood the importance of like, putting greenery and kind of open space as part of that, because it creates this distance, I suppose, from their very urban, maybe small scale reality. And then suddenly, you can go to this wide open space that you’re very much aware, I presume that Augustus is kind of its public, but you know, he’s allowing us to be here, in that he’s opened it up in this way. But it’s just dotted by all of these reminders of Augustus being there. So I think, I think the plantings are actually, we shouldn’t think of them as being, you know, marginal, I think actually, that’s kind of like, that’s the main thing. And then the monuments are within that. Interesting,
Dr G 23:39 interesting. All right, I will hold on to these thoughts because you’re giving me food for thought. And now and, and I’m thinking about the kind of potential for a natural fallacy to emerge that somehow Augustan power is immersed and is part of and it’s coming from nature. And but I won’t go too far down that path that is an unformed thought. No,
Dr Victoria Austen 24:02 I completely agree because like so much of his imagery, and like we spoke about this on the previous episodes, so much of his imagery and kind of this connection to the gods he he created through the use of symbolic plants like plants were plants as symbols were so central to his kind of image image making in that way. And in fact, on the mausoleum, we don’t have much of the kind of decoration that would would have gone on the exterior. It wasn’t just like plain concrete, there would have been kind of marble decoration. And we know that either side of the entrance way. There were kind of carved marble panels that featured Laurel and like this is very probably symbolic of the fact that he has two Laurel trees either side, you know either side of the entrance to its house, which itself is meant to mimic the use of Laurel trees outside of religious buildings. And you know, the Laurel is associated with Apollo Augustus sees himself as Apollo. You know, even on coins, there’s just these two Laurel trees and it’s like that’s an Augustan coin, like that’s a symbol for him. And so I think the fact that it’s like consciously on his mausoleum, like flanking the entrance, again, it kind of speaks to this idea that he’s kind of harnessing these planty symbols. And and it’s not by accident. There’s like these repeated patterns. And so, yeah, with these two Laurel trees, it’s like they’re at my mausoleum. They’re at my house. They’re on coins. I wear them in my trial for crowns. You know, it’s like, this is my plant. It’s effing everywhere.
Dr Rad 25:39 Yeah, Branding! Well, I mean, this, this is this is not quite the same thing. But there is also that idea that comes through or Gustus that urban city life is not what made room great, it’s an eight shades, the rural existence, it’s being connected to the land and agricultural practice and that sort of thing as well, which is not quite the same thing. But
Dr Victoria Austen 26:05 But I think it’s part of it, because I mean, the fact that he’s doing this in the Campus Martius, which in itself is like representative of this kind of like it’s like original kind of public type land. There’s a lot of kind of literary by, say a lot, there’s pieces of literary evidence from this kind of late Republican into the Augustan period, where one of the kind of moral tropes that kind of comes up is, there’s a lot of anxiety about the loss of kind of sacred landscapes in the context of the Civil War. And so I think he plays a you know, he’s a smart move, he’s creating a new sacred landscape within his marshes, and he’s like, I am at the centre of it. So my guess is, and again, that’s, you know, about as close to declaring yourself a god as you can get.
Dr Rad 26:54 Like, I think I think I’m also sensing one of the reasons why I’ve perhaps instinctively disliked Augustus and that’s the Australian in me is very uncomfortable with someone who’s so openly being like, yeah, I am at the centre of everything. I am the shit.
Dr G 27:10 You want to some tall poppy syndrome.
Dr Rad 27:14 There is actually honestly, it is a cultural thing that Australians aren’t comfortable with ambitious people.
Dr Victoria Austen 27:22 Interesting. Okay. Yeah. But I think yeah, Augustus would not fit in there then.
Dr G 27:29 Definitely not.
Dr Rad 27:31 I actually to come back to our earlier thing, I just thought her out of interest, I would have a have a Look at the list of people that ended up making it in his lifetime. So obviously, we know Marcellus Yeah, he’s, yeah, he he’s intended as numero uno, who unfortunately died very, very young and unexpectedly, the son of his sister Octavia Octavia. Of course, yes.
Dr Victoria Austen 27:56 There is in there. Yeah. So it’s not just limited to men as well. We know it’s quite like they allow he does allow some women in there. Yeah. Well, I
Dr Rad 28:03 mean, I get Octavia because after all, she’s like the opposite of Julia the elder his daughter, and that she’s very dutiful. Does what what is asked of her, you know, does her bid for the succession? Agrippa who is not a blood relative? Of course.
Dr G 28:21 No, but they’re like brothers in that. Yeah. Say?
Dr Rad 28:24 Anyone deserves it. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t think I’ve asked this would have been Augustus without Agrippa. But he acknowledged that that much. And then of course, my man, Tiberius after Augustus. His death obviously, yeah. ends up in there, but so do people like Germanicus? Yeah. Yeah. Who we might expect as well. And Antonia Minor, huh? Yeah. Mother of Claudius Britannicus.
Dr G 28:55 Oh, yeah. Poor Britannicus.
Dr Rad 28:57 Tragically murdered by one of his own relatives, which is why it’s kind of weird that he ends up in this really
Dr G 29:01 well, first I killed him. And then I put him in the mausoleum because that’s the right thing to do.
Dr Rad 29:06 Exactly. Yeah. And, of course, of course, Claudius himself. Now I’m just going to point out, we are missing Of course, yeah. Nero, and he doesn’t he’s not in there. No, no, he’s definitely not.
Dr G 29:21 So being a relative is not enough to get you in there it is, being an emperor
Dr Rad 29:25 isn’t enough to get you on.
Dr Victoria Austen 29:27 And again, this is this is the point about that. A dynastic monument. We think of it because I think we’re so maybe skewed by our idea of like modern monarchy, which is very kind of like family oriented, oriented and this idea that then it’s the family and the dynastic part, they’re not one in the same and obviously when it ends as well overlap, but you know, no one is there’s no father son succession in the junior accordions, it seems, it’s that’s true. He’s alive and who would we not want to merge I think you’ll be the next one.
Dr G 30:02 Congratulations, you survived. Yes.
Dr Rad 30:05 It would be fascinating if the modern British monarchy was run along the same lines who’s alive? And who do we not want to? Pick? Yeah, yeah. Oh,
Dr G 30:15 that would open up the field goodness not really worth it. So thinking about the mausoleum, not just in the Augustan period, but it does have a huge legacy over time. Like there’s obviously part of the structure still remains to this day. And it’s not like people after Ancient Rome or like, you know what, never going in there don’t know what that’s about. It was definitely it had many afterlives if you. And I’m wondering if you can take us through some of the ones that have really appealed to you when you’ve been thinking about this structure.
Dr Victoria Austen 30:47 I mean, I think this is this is what I found so fascinating. And this, this really started as a very small I was like, Well, what did kind of happen after the Augustan period, and it has opened up this whole new world of research to me, and now I’m looking at Pope’s, and Who’s In Who’s in charge of Rome in the pre modern period. And it’s, it’s fascinating, it’s but it’s not like a linear kind of journey. It, yeah, it kind of comes and goes in these cycles in a really, really fascinating way. So as I think I just said, like the last burial that we can kind of officially associate with it is Nerva in 96 CE, and then it kind of, we have very, very fragmentary and limited evidence from when from that kind of peak use period as a burial plot. And then it really kind of like drops off. And we don’t have like a tonne of information, it pops up in the 10th century. It’s called the mons Augusta. By Gregorius, I think it is. And he refers to the site as this, like Mons Augusta. And then in the 12th century, we have this really interesting reference in the Mirabilia. Urbis Romae, which is essentially like a guidebook to the ancient city. And it’s referred to as the Augustan. But it also includes this really interesting legend, which is actually not found in the ancient sources, but it’s described in the Mirabilia, and it says that the mound itself has been is special, and people still, like kind of go to it and worship it. And it’s still a special site, because he talks about the author of the memorabilia of that Augustus bought mounds of earth from all different parts of the empire, and put it on top of his put it as part of the plantings of the cool, so fascinating. And like, I wish we had any kind of hardly any hint of this in the ancient sources, but I mean, the, they obviously got this idea from somewhere in the mirror, but it’s discussed as something it’s like, this is the well known site that you’re gonna go visit and you know, said that Augustus bought these mounds of earth from all over and like, that is such an imperial statement, again, this like, control of space and time, he’s like, I’m literally bringing the Earth from all of the places and putting it on my tomb where
Dr Rad 33:13 I was gonna say sounds so on brand
Dr Victoria Austen 33:16 on land. And so I think it’s also just really interesting that in the mirror abelia, it’s like, the earthy part, is seen as the most kind of famous part of the commemoration. It’s not the structure, he like talks about the Earth as being like, this central thing that they’re gonna Look at, which again, when I think about these kind of the temporal aspects of plantings is and why people use them in commemoration, again, it’s like it’s always there. But it’s changed over time. So yeah, that’s a really fascinating little reference in the 12th century. And then we basically have like, nothing, and we don’t really know what happened. This is a contentious time and in pre modern Rome, you know, the city in itself goes through various phases or kind of decline, and then people try and, you know, put more effort into it and all this kind of stuff. And you know, there’s lots of anxiety kind of from the 12th to the 14th centuries about, oh, Rome, it was so great. And now we’ve let it go to ruin and, and you can kind of think about the mausoleum in that way. What we do then know is that then in the 16th century, when you know the Pope’s they’ve been away in France, and then they come back to Rome, and they start to like really rejuvenate the city. And so as part of that kind of regeneration in the 16th century, it gets the site in itself gets bought by an elite gentleman called miss your Soderini is part of this Florentine family. And they’re like, We want to invest in Rome and so we’re gonna buy we’re gonna buy some ancient sites. We’re gonna make our mark in Rome and and The Soderini family they buy the mausoleum. And this is the kind of thing that I’ve been looking at the most is that they then Soderini turns it into his own sculpture gallery slash garden. So he kind of uncovers it. And there’s this amazing letter, I’m going to bring it up so I can read it to you from 1549. And there’s an Italian Giovanni Battista Vicini, and he writes to his friend, and he says, I am writing this letter to you in the middle of the tomb of Augustus, which my once in your Soderini has undertaken to redo and he has transformed it into a rather lovely garden with some rooms there for eating. And this is his past time, this place called the mausoleum is now a vegetable garden. And there are some fine salad leaves here. He’s using the language of like a vegetable garden and leaves, but he’s talking about the sculpture. So he’s like, again, super interesting for me in terms of the language because he’s playing on that dynamic, which Augustus did as well, of like, we’re being all rustic, and, and old school, and we’re tapping into old school nature. And he’s describing these very aesthetic kind of sculptures, as like the rustic salad leaves. And so in terms of like commemoration, for me, this is really interesting as well, because by turning it, he has his like, private collection of ancient sculptures, and then they’re being displayed inside the tomb. So it’s like, it becomes like a site of commemoration to the ancient world in general, but also still to Augustus, because they still refer to it as the mausoleum of Augustus. But then it’s also now starting to commemorate sort of renew his own identity, as well as like this elite kind of culture, like, I can collect all of these ancient sculptures. And again, it’s a private collection, but then he opens it up to the public, and it becomes this site, it then again, it gets featured in a load of guidebooks from like the 16th to the 18th century. As like, this is a place to go like you got to go to the mausoleum. You got to see the sculptures. And yeah, so just think that’s really fascinating that he like, kind of took took the outside plantings from the Augustan period. It’s kind of turn the concept inside out to some extent now the gardens inside, and it’s got all of his quote unquote salad leaves for us to Look.
Dr Rad 37:33 Well, you Look, I’m gonna thank you, because you’ve just given me a great idea for Dr. G’s next birthday, so I’m going to start saving so that I can buy the mausoleum and turn it into a little place for her, you know, little thing with you. Honestly,
Dr Victoria Austen 37:47 I want someone to buy the mausoleum that will actually let me in there because I had such high this summer when I was there. And I met Dr. G. And we were like, yes, we’re here. We’re gonna do what Augustan things. And then once again, the mausoleum was closed, it’s close to the public, because they are doing even more renovation work. I was gonna
Dr G 38:07 say there was a moment a few years ago, pre COVID, where it had reopened. Ah, I’m so excited because I was just about to go. And then I had to cancel the trip because of COVID. Thank you very much. And then by the time I could get back, it was closed again. I was like, Oh, no.
Dr Victoria Austen 38:23 I was like, This is my moment. And, and what’s really fascinating though, one thing I did notice, when I was there in the summer is around the kind of construction they obviously have kind of barriers and on the barriers they have highlighted, like key dates in the mausoleum’s history. And they’ve got dates related to Augustus. Obviously, they’ve got dates related to Mussolini, which we can come on to. But then also one of the key dates in this timeline is this 1549 day they actually have it as as a key kind of date. So this Soderini garden, I’m kind of interested when it’s reopened if they’re going to make a bit more of that part of its history in terms of like exhibitions or something like that, because there is like not a lot written on this. The kind of want one kind of key article kind of speaks more about trying to identify the sculptures that were in it, as opposed to like thinking about it as I am as this kind of continuation of garden, space and commemoration. But I think yeah, I was really surprised to see that the government or the kind of museum like it had this 1549 date on as part of like, the kind of key timeline and I was like, because I’m pretty sure not many people know about that. So yeah,
Dr G 39:41 I think it speaks to what is this broader legacy because there is something about circular buildings. It sounds like a segway. But there is something about the attraction of circular buildings or oval shaped buildings, which because they’re quite rare. In terms of the architecture, generally speaking, they tend to stand out and they tend to garner attention. But this also affects how they might be repurposed and how people think about their repurposing as well. And so there is something about the visual of having a circular gallery, that you can kind of wind your way through and around. And that allows sort of ready to do this moment where he’s like, Look, I’m a bit like Augustus here, and I’ve created this space, which allows you to engage with time and, and all of this kind of stuff as well. And perhaps there are some replanting is going on, who knows.
Dr Victoria Austen 40:37 And again, we don’t have any evidence for this particular like the remnants of how Santorini had utilised it, there’s no physical evidence of it, because as we can go on to like, it’s then it goes through other phases of redevelopment, and it gets buried and built on and attached to and all of this stuff, but we do have a lot of engravings from these guidebooks are very consistent in terms of the imagery. And so I think we do have a pretty good idea of what it may be Look like. And so like, I’m looking at one on my screen now, and I can send you on for the for the website, is this idea of you’ve got this kind of walkway up to the front, and it’s flanked by ancient statues, and then you kind of go in through the entrance way. And then the interior, it kind of looks like the sculptures were kind of round the edge. And then you’ve got like a planted series of kind of walkways, and like box hedges in the interior. And as you said, it’s like you’re guiding, you know, different pathways. And you’re maybe you know, leisurely strolling round. And yeah, I just think it’s, it’s really, really fascinating I and yeah, just the kind of consistency of the engravings, I think, from this couple of centuries, I think we can get a fairly good idea of what it maybe looks like. But for some reason, from the 18th, kind of century onwards, it goes into another period of decline. And we don’t really get much going on then until kind of, we get a period of like 100 years of kind of decline. And then we’ve got the next kind of key, infamous phase, I think, is when Mussolini comes along. I’m again, in terms of like commemoration and memory and identity. You can see this building is being used by different people at different times. You know, Augustus does it. Santorini is doing it in his own way. And then you’ve got Mussolini coming in. And his whole shtick is that, oh, it’s gone into disrepair. Again, this idea of it being like buried and earthen. It’s like undercover. And then miscellaneous thing was he comes along, and he’s got his pickaxe, and he’s like, I am uncovering or revealing the ancient city and it’s like a make Rome, great, again, kind of idea. He’s like, we have let our history go into disrepair. And so the Campus Martius area for him, become central to his whole kind of reorganisation of Rome. And like, this is an area that had been kind of turned into almost like a residential district. And he basically just cleanse like cleared it out completely. You know, people didn’t get a choice. It’s like, No, I’m going in there. I’m getting rid of all of the residential stuff. And yeah, I actually went down a rabbit hole a few weeks ago on YouTube and found some amazing YouTube footage of, I guess they were kind of like those, like Italian Government, like type newsreel type things that would have been shown. And it’s like, here’s Mussolini, like going and he’s like walking up this what looks like this kind of mound of earth. And he’s got his pickaxe, and it’s like, Mussolini is revealing the mausoleum of Augustus. And it’s like, caught on camera. And this is one of the things that he goes to and it becomes part of his whole kind of memory and, and his use of the ancient city, and recovering quote, unquote, the ancient city to regain this kind of power for himself, kind of again, shows this idea of like, the space time continuum.
Dr Rad 44:22 Well, Look, this will be familiar to many students of ancient history in Australia, and probably other places, but I know the syllabus in Australia, because we have close Look at the way that Mussolini and his cronies are involved in Pompeii and Herculaneum. Okay, so yeah, that the idea that Mussolini obviously is connecting to ancient rumours, propaganda, basically for his own regime will be will be familiar territory to them. Yeah,
Dr Victoria Austen 44:51 um, I mean, I don’t think it’s not unsurprising that he also really wanted to uncover Augustan monuments, like He’s my guy like, yeah.
Dr Rad 45:03 Like, you’re-a speaking my language. Yeah.
Dr Victoria Austen 45:05 You know, he would probably have called him a fascist, it doesn’t come as a surprise to me that like, that is that is a particular area and like he wanted to do with the Ara Pacis as well, like he actually bought. He’s the, I mean, he’s the reason why we have it all nicely kind of reconstructed in the nice, beautifully air conditioned museum that it’s in now. I mean, it’s, it’s just kind of fascinating to me that, that Augustus, these Augustan, monuments are kind of they keep being reused, repurposed. And for different forms of memory and kind of like tapping into memory, I think. Yeah.
Dr Rad 45:44 And like, it seems obviously objectionable that someone like Mussolini would be able to do this. But at least as you say, there is some preservation and interest involved, because I remember the only time I’ve ever been able to see it, it had fallen, as you say, into one of those states of disrepair. When I was there, which would have been in the early 2000s. It was covered in rubbish, I was told it was even unsafe to be in the area, because it was used as kind of a temporary refuge for people who maybe didn’t have anywhere else to go. And so yeah, I mean, not that I’m saying Mussolini was a good thing, or that Fascism is a good thing. Yeah, he’d be very clear on that. But there is some good ideas behind the idea of governments investing in heritage. Yeah.
Dr Victoria Austen 46:30 And I think I’m, I’m kind of fascinated by the fact that, I don’t know whether it’s because of the size, or it’s just kind of so unwieldy, or people don’t really know what to do with it. But you would think, as such a key Augustan monument, that it would not have maybe gone through these periods of decline. I feel like it’s one of the least well known Augustan monuments, probably because so few people have actually been able to like engage with it in any way. But it was like so sent like, To him, it would have been so central, he had been very disappointed at the lack of the deterioration. But, but then not
Dr G 47:11 to mention that Hadrian’s mausoleum on the other side sort of now has precedent.
Dr Victoria Austen 47:18 So there’s this idea that like, why, why did it fall into disrepair? And this is kind of the frustrating thing about this kind of gap in the evidence that we have from, I guess, like from the Imperial period, up until when it kind of crops back up in the in the pre Modern Period. I’m just kind of intrigued as to why why was it allowed to get into that state? Yeah, that compared to other buildings, that that’s what doesn’t make sense to me? No, I mean, part of me wonders, one thing I do want to Look into is that, I think as well, possibly the area that it’s in the Campus Martius obviously, one of the things that good older gripper did was, you know, putting in this drainage system, which allowed them to build there in the first place. So close to the river. But it does, it has suffered over time from a lot of flooding. And I have to wonder, like, was a famous flood, I think, in the 11th, or the 12th century of the Tiber. And I have to wonder, like, whether that’s part of why it got into this state of disrepair because of its location, and then if there was flooding and that kind of thing. So that might be part of it. But But yeah, it’s kind of interesting how when it does get rejuvenated, it’s always in the same kind of way like this. They’re kind of using the Augusto model, but then doing their own kind of thing with it, which I think is really interesting
Dr Rad 48:48 evidence. It is really weird, as you say, because if we think about what Agassiz is doing here, as being a little bit similar to like, what an Egyptian Pharaoh would do is tend to thinking about, you know, long term, where am I going to end up what kind of monument do I want? You know, how am I going to use it design etc. I mean, the Egyptian government does not neglect that, you know, the pyramids, you know, to be on those are all the tombs in the Valley of the Kings like it’s, if I mean, if I think about we’ve just had the Ramses exhibit, what sort going on actually at the time of recording to the Australian Museum here and going to that it was like being in a mosh pit. There were so many people crammed in to see this stuff. And it’s like people care about this kind of stuff. And it certainly not neglected. So it is a weird thing to overlook, especially because I’m something we haven’t really mentioned. It was weird to have people buried inside the city of Rome to have to have human remains inside the city that is rare in this particular culture.
Dr Victoria Austen 49:48 Yeah, I think that is again, that kind of speaks to this kind of bold, the initial bold statement that Augustus is making in is just it’s not just in The location in relation to his other monuments, which we’ve already talked about, but as you said, the fact of having this, like grand burial monument, so, like, so close to the centre of like the central air, like, I mean, people kind of still want to think of the Campus Martius it’s like, oh, it’s like a little bit out there, but I’m like, it’s still very set. Like it’s not, it’s not the suburbs like, it’s
Dr G 50:24 like, Guys, it’s an easy walk from the forest. You’re gonna be fine.
Dr Victoria Austen 50:29 Yeah, you know, you can have a nice, you can have a Sunday stroll at the Campus Martius no problem. But But yeah, just kind of that in itself of that statement of, again, it speaks to his arm doing things differently, that he places it so centrally, you know? Yeah. Very interesting. Definitely.
Dr Rad 50:50 So broadly speaking, after having looked at the mausoleum and the Augustus context, and then looking about the legacy of that and the reuse of it over time, what do you feel we can learn by looking at this particular monument? Yeah,
Dr Victoria Austen 51:04 I mean, I think it for me, it’s interesting on many levels, but I think currently the kind of things that I’m most interested in this idea of the kind of reuse of ancient monuments in lighting, and how, how they in themselves, can take on new ideological meanings, whether that be on a personal level, like Santorini, or a political level, like Mussolini, this idea of monuments in themselves, the kind of multi valence and the ever changing nature of like, how these monuments are received and what they mean. And I think this is like such an interesting, neat case study in how you’ve got this one thing. And it’s like so many different things all over. I mean, I haven’t even said like, it was also the site of a bullfighting ring at one point, I mean, that
Dr G 52:02 how did we skip over that,
Dr Victoria Austen 52:05 that kind of like continual reuse, and, and this, this kind of cyclical nature of like decline and regeneration of monuments and reuses, I think, is a really nice case study of of that. And then also my, my idea, my focus on on gardens and landscapes. Again, it really speaks to me of this need to not think of the kind of monuments as like physically monumental structures, and then kind of maybe plants or plantings or landscape as being this kind of marginal kind of nice to have thing. I think we really underestimate the importance of the collaboration of those two things. And I think we tend to think of things that have that relationship hierarchically, with monuments, like the thing. And then, oh, we’ve got some nice, like gardens and stuff that we may be looking at. Whereas I think the more I’m looking at the ancient world, and even kind of later receptions, the more I think that we shouldn’t be thinking about these hierarchically, and instead in conversation with one another, and again, I just think the Muslims are really fascinating example of, of that trend. And so I think it can teach us, you know, quite a lot about those two broad ideas.
Dr Rad 53:27 Well, I mean, that’s a very good point, because I think what we see increasingly in modern eras is a neglect of the natural world and the importance of that to ourselves, to our peril, basically, I
Dr Victoria Austen 53:40 mean, you have to think about, I mean, when I, when I lived in Winnipeg, a lot of a lot of people would always comment like, the downtown it had like, no trees or like plantings and like that, that conversation around like urban forestry. And like that idea of, we need to we, we created these urban environments that were like so devoid of nature. And now everyone’s recognising the need that we actually need to put it back in. And I think the Romans were ahead of the game in that in that they, you know, they were not, they were not afraid to kind of just because it’s an quote unquote, urban area. That doesn’t mean it’s devoid of nature. And I think, again, we’ve kind of thought of these two things as in our modern frameworks with thinking of these things very separately. But I think I’m kind of hopeful that with this idea of replanting, and kind of urban forestry and putting plants back into more traditionally urban environments, I think is a move a move in a in a more positive direction, because I think we kind of lost that idea that we can have both at the same time.
Dr Rad 54:48 Yeah, well, I think that’s comes to that. That very popular idea of room being a city of marble and it’s, no, that’s just one part of it. And it’s the same thing for us in Sydney. I mean, there are places like in Western Sydney and that sort of thing where we’re recognising increasingly for mental health to help with, you know, heat waves and that sort of thing, it’s really important to integrate nature into, you know, places where people are living, you can’t just have brick and concrete. No,
Dr Victoria Austen 55:15 I don’t mean Yeah, thinking about, like, the heat in itself. I mean, like, when you’re just surrounded by concrete it is, it’s like so much more oppressive than Yeah, if there’s like, the minute you get into a bit of nature by some trees. And so you got to think of like the climate of Rome, like, this is part of the enjoyment of this area that Augustine created in like, it wouldn’t have been nice if it was literally just like, I’m like, You’re not gonna pave the entire Campus Martius in marble, and I mean, like parts of it were, but it just makes so much more sense to have this kind of collaboration of the natural and the, the ornamental.
Dr Rad 55:54 Yeah, I’m just picturing a lot of Romans like, you know, running along in their sandals and slipping around when it rains.
Dr G 56:03 Certainly, there was some grass around here. So to wrap this conversation up, and thinking about the way in which there is a tendency today, and maybe through time as well, the desire to restore structures to honour their original purpose, why they were first built. So Augustus is mausoleum has never been forgotten as being related and connected to Augustus through all of that time. And though people have reused it in various ways, such as the galleries and the bullfighting, and things like that there was that recognition that it did have this original purpose, it was related to Augustus. And now when we see the restoration work that’s underway today with the structure, it is really about that gustan period of its history, and not so much about the things that came after it, or at least, it doesn’t seem to be that way. However, I’d be curious to see what it looks like if they ever let me. So I’m interested in what are some of the implications you see in this sort of contemporary desire for restoration to original purpose? Well,
Dr Victoria Austen 57:09 I think there’s such a fine line to be worn with that, particularly with the Mausoleum of Augustus, again, it’s kind of an interesting case study for that conversation, because we actually don’t know what it really looked like in its original format. Like, we have an idea, but because of all of the many layers of rebuilding and reuse, like it is actually impossible from the archaeological record, to actually figure out what the structure would have been like. And so most of the time, we’re relying on the description from strijbos geography, which talks about that there’s this monumental structure, and it’s planted and, and all of this kind of stuff. And then there are these kind of all of the reconstructions have been based on that. And also, on its relationship, potentially as a model for then Hadrian’s mausoleum. So, originally, like, there’s this idea of it being this kind of multi tiered structure. And that’s what people think of when they they try and trying to kind of recreate the original Augustan context. But we don’t actually have we can’t definitively say, based on the archaeology, if it was a multi tiered structure, because we’ve only got the base level of it. So I think it’s a really interesting study and like projection of when we can’t know the original, like, what then are we trying to create? Like, what? I struggle with them? Like, why do we need to actually know what it may have exactly Look like, I think there’s often like this idea of like, we need to know what it actually looked like. So we can reconstruct it or like, show what it was, and you’re getting that, quote, unquote, original sense of the monument. But we will never know the original like, because it’s framed in the landscape in a completely different type of way, like the way we are engaging with it. We now are engaging with these, with these monuments, based on all of the layers of history, and we’re coming to modern lens, like I said, very hard for people to think about it as nothing more than like a monumental structure. Like they’re not thinking about the trees. And I mean, part of my research is like, you know, we’re trying to if we are obsessed with the original, then we need to try and get back to well, like, how would they actually be viewing it? So I think sometimes we can get a bit caught up in trying to find some kind of essence, to individual pieces that we’re like trying to hold on to and I think, you know, I think as humans we want that certainty and stability of like, we can say, this is what it looked like for people walking around in the Augustan period, and this is what they would have, quote unquote I experienced but you know, when we’re moving through space and time, like that’s a, we’re just totally different individuals in that way. So. So I think it’s important to recognise or try and figure out what it would have originally been like. But I think it’s also important to recognise that these things are always evolving, and that there’s not like this one static way of viewing.
Dr G 1:00:29 Yeah, and there’s kind of like an impossibility embedded in that isn’t there? It’s like, I mean, I would love to know what it originally looked like, the chances of that ever. And
Dr Victoria Austen 1:00:41 then also, we limit ourselves by if we only focused on, but what did it Look like? I’m like, that’s one part of investigating these monuments. But also, there are so many other questions that we can ask and, and interesting things we can kind of think about when it comes to monuments and memory and kind of what they mean. And, and yeah, I think just just focusing on like trying to reclaim some original purpose is, it’s just kind of missing the point, I think of monuments and memorialization in general, because the whole point is that it’s a continual process. So like, why would we want it to be exactly the same? Well,
Dr Rad 1:01:24 I think we can safely say that without modern technology, Augustus would not be averse to us making some improvements if it would make him even grander. So by all means, build it up, make it a frickin skyscraper.
Dr Victoria Austen 1:01:38 Yeah, it’s interesting, we still we still kind of, even though it is rundown, and there’s still a desire to reclaim it, even now that they’ve not given that no one’s given up hope, like there have been these periods of decline. But it’s like we should, we should do something with this, because it’s kind of that implicit recognition that this is important, but we’re not entirely sure why it’s important, but we’re gonna do something with it.
Dr G 1:02:06 And it has a substantial footprint in the spot where it is like, it’s huge to try and walk around it, it takes a little while. And you’re like trying to peek in through the gates being like, what’s going on in there guys. Like it’s a whole blocks worth in size.
Dr Victoria Austen 1:02:19 Yeah, the best view you can get it actually from inside the Ara Pacis is museum because you’re a bit raised. And then, I mean, it’s still blocked. Now it’s blocked now because of all of like the scaffolding, but from the inside of the museum, you can at least kind of Look a bit over into what it is. But yeah, you’re right. Like this is huge. It’s not something you can never take it in in one go. Really, because this is like like the Colosseum, like you’ve got to like you’re experiencing it from multiple angles and ways. And you can’t just it’s not a small thing that you can just stand there and Look at, like, you got to experience it in space. So
Dr Rad 1:02:57 well. And I think this also speaks to something about people. I mean, obviously, we’ve increasingly got digital areas and spaces for ourselves. But at the end of the day, much like we can’t lose our connection with the actual natural world, we can’t lose our connection with physical spaces, they still really matter to us. Because of the way that we’re wired. We’re not wired to exist only in a digital space. And so you’ve given me a lot of hope that I will be able to repurpose this as a space for people to come and ponder the greatness of people like Dr. G. Dr. Austen and also reflect on what a manipulative evil son of a bitch Augustus was.
Dr G 1:03:40 I knew it was coming and
Dr Rad 1:03:46 End episode. Exit stage left.
But it’d be Yeah, I mean, I think having a space to go and and yeah, and think about Augustus and all the things that he did. It’s, it’s good.
Dr Victoria Austen 1:04:05 I agree. One of these days, you know, the last conversation we had we manifested that we would meet in Rome, and Dr. Jean did meet in Rome. So now if we manifest that we’ll be able to go in the mausoleum of Augustus. Maybe it will happen. Maybe this.
Dr G 1:04:22 Oh, yeah, we’ll get Dr. Right over there. Yeah. surreptitiously record that conversation.
Dr Rad 1:04:28 Dr G and I are saving away for a partial historians expedition.
Dr Victoria Austen 1:04:34 So we will, we will hope that the mausoleum is part of that experience for you.
Dr Rad 1:04:40 Yeah, like I want to I want to Look at the remains of Augustus.
Dr Victoria Austen 1:04:44 Look him In the eye and tell him what you think.
Dr Rad 1:04:50 I see what you were doing. You didn’t fool me.
Dr G 1:04:54 Goodness me. Well, on that note, thank you so much, Vicky for joining us and chatting all about the mausoleum, it has been fabulous to have you.
Dr Rad 1:05:09 Thank you for listening to this special episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy to Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to special episodes just like this. Today, we would like to say a special hello to Roman, Jesse and Dillon some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you very muchly for your support. However, if you just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. That goes for our book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
It's All About the Money, Honey!
Mar 14, 2024
Money, money, money! We’re in 406 BCE and although its well before ABBA’s pop hit, let’s this be a small hint of things to come. Rome finds itself in a bit of a tricky situation. Not only are they navigating the fallout of their conflict with the Volscians, but with the long running tensions with Veii seem to be coming to a head.
Episode 148 – It’s All About the Money, Honey!
There’s a distinct lack of enthusiasm for more fighting from the people who would be levied. Things are not looking positive on the morale front! Combine that with some meddlesome tribunes of the plebs and the recipe is ripe for a changing time ahead.
What if we paid you?
The big topic that makes the 406 stand out is the assertion in some ancient sources that this year is the first time the Roman soldiers receive pay for their service. That’s right, Rome’s been trundling along for centuries without offering those who risk life and limb anything but the potential thrill of booty. But is this claim to be believed? We consider some of the challenges.
The Geography of Central Italy
Spoiler alert! Rome extends their sphere of influence further into Volscian territory in 406. Anxur is on the coast just to the east of Circeii. Map below for reference for just how afar afield Anxur is from Rome! Tune in for all the tactical details.
Publius Cornelius M. f. L. n. Rutilus Cossus (Pat)
Gnaeus Cornelius P. f. A. n. Cossus (Pat)
Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat). NB Diodorus and the Fasti Capitolini have Numerius as the praenomen
Lucius Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat)
Legate
Gaius Servilius Ahala (Pat)
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy 4.58-59
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.12.1; Ennius’ Annales 4.162 V; Florus 1.6.8; Fasti Capitolini for 406 BCE
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
The view of Anxur (known today as Terracina) from the sea. The cliff is VERY dramatic! At the top you can see the ruins of the Temple of Jupiter Anxur, which was built sometime in the mid-second to mid-first century BCE. Photo by Gugli73 via Wikimedia Commons.
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:02 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians and I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:11 And I am Dr. Rad relieved that you know who you are, Dr. G.
Dr G 1:16 This time, for once.
Dr Rad 1:18 Call back to an episode a couple of months ago?
Dr G 1:22 Yes, well, you know, I mean, the thing is, so we are tracing the history of Rome, from the founding of the city. And we are in what I think is going to be a very exciting year, because we’re going to be talking about 406 BCE.
Dr Rad 1:43 We certainly are, but before we get into that, of course, Dr. G, I would like to recap where we were in 407 and I can do that pretty succinctly because not a huge amount happened.
Dr G 1:55 I was gonna say you really have to do the recap for 407 because I don’t know anything.
Dr Rad 2:01 Well, we got the hint that something was happening with me it was very peaceful, very diplomatic. But they is once again being mentioned which okay, I mean, there’s been some big conflicts with Veii and you know, issues with the Etruscans in the past, but it’s been a little bit quieter for the last couple of decades. But they did appear on the horizon in our last episode, but nothing very exciting really happened. And then we of course had the slaughter at Verrugo, which I’m sure you remember because I know you hate that place name.
Dr G 2:35 I do. I mean, it just doesn’t roll off the tongue nicely.
Dr Rad 2:41 Verrugo, Verrugo.
Dr G 2:41 Stop that, I’m shivering. Oh, okay. So Rome has this issue with Verrugo.
Dr Rad 2:50 It did.
Dr G 2:51 And that’s that’s kind of it.
Dr Rad 2:54 Yeah. Basically, they recently captured it. And they were feeling very smug. And then it got captured back by the Volscians, and the Aequians. And it wasn’t a great Look, it wasn’t a great Look, because they probably could have stopped that from happening if they’d been a little bit more on the ball.
Dr G 3:12 I was gonna say if they had sent a full military force.
Dr Rad 3:15 Yeah, well, I mean, they sent a military force, but they were just like, late. It was kind of the issue that they took their sweet time. And that poor little garrison out there. Killed.
Dr G 3:29 Well.
Dr Rad 3:29 All dead.
Dr G 3:31 Oh no, Dear Marcia, I write to you as I die on this battlefield.
Dr Rad 3:40 The blood is leaking from my veins, but my heart still pumps for you.
Dr G 3:50 The Romance.
Dr Rad 3:50 I know.
Dr G 3:52 All right. Well, I think that it is time then 406 BCE.
It’s 406 BCE, and we have military tribunes with consular power. There are four of them, which is a pretty standard number at this point in time. We have Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus.
Dr Rad 4:46 I believe we know that name from recent years.
Dr G 4:50 Perhaps we do, perhaps we do certainly the Rutilii Cossi as a group as a sort of gens and then that particular family line well own at this point. And we also have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus. So some more Cornelii in there. We also have a guy called Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Ambustus.
Dr Rad 5:18 Ah haaa
Dr G 5:21 Numerius seems to be the more preferred of the praenomens here.
Dr Rad 5:25 Okay.
Dr G 5:27 Livy might disagree. We’ll see.
Dr Rad 5:28 I’m not going to repeat my joke from last time.
Dr G 5:30 Booo! And Lucius Valerius Potitus.
Dr Rad 5:38 Another familiar name.
Dr G 5:39 Yes. Previously consular tribune in 414. And will also go on to hold that role in the future as well. Watch this space.
Dr Rad 5:49 Okay,
Dr G 5:49 So far what I can tell you so far is Potitus doesn’t die.
Dr Rad 5:55 Spoliers! Yeah.
Dr G 5:57 And we also have a legate who has survived. So a military legate, we don’t really know what they do right now. They’re in charge of troops.
Dr Rad 6:05 We don’t know what military tribunes do right now!
Dr G 6:07 We don’t really know a lot. All right. But here we are. And we have Gaius Servilius Ahala Ahala Ahala. And you will definitely recognize this name because he was a military tribute in regards to the power in 408 and 407. So as early as last year, he was hanging around.
Dr Rad 6:36 So the Ahala definitely making a comeback through this particular man.
Dr G 6:40 They are they definitely are. So that’s all the names that I’ve got. And I do have some details about this year. But I feel like Livy probably has a narrative to hook some of those details into so I’m keen to see what he’s got.
Dr Rad 6:57 Okay, well, Dr. G, get ready to strap yourself in for what is going to be an epic year. So epic. I may need two episodes to tell you about it. And it’s been a while it’s been a while since we’ve had a year I think quite this epic. I mean, 409 saw some big developments. But this is action packed.
Dr G 7:19 Stuff happens
Dr Rad 7:20 Stuff does, stuff does happen. It does, indeed. Now, a lot of the stuff that happens is connected with Veii. So last episode, we talked about the fact that allegedly, the truce between Veii and Rome that had been established in their previous conflict was running out. And so everyone was like, We got to renew it. Gotta get that least happening again.
Dr G 7:45 Hurry hurry!
Dr Rad 7:46 Yeah. But 406 is generally given in our ancient sources as the year in which war with Veii began again.
Dr G 7:59 Now, okay, that sounds momentous.
Dr Rad 8:02 Yes. Now, it’s not necessarily obviously all going to be the action of that war in this year, because this is going to be a 10 year conflict or so we are led to believe.
Dr G 8:14 Oh goodness, all right. Strap myself in indeed.
Dr Rad 8:17 Yeah. Now look, obviously, as I highlighted last time, dates, the amount of time that the Romans are going to go to war. It’s a little bit, it’s a little bit questionable at this point in time. Do they want it to go for 10 years because the Trojan War allegedly lasted for 10 years? Maybe? Who am I to say? Who am I?
Dr G 8:38 You telling me Rome views its conflict with Veii in-? Like in Trojan War terms? It’s Homeric in its scope. Wow. All right. Okay.
Dr Rad 8:38 Yeah, there’s gonna be a lot of that. So I’m just I’m just highlighting that now. Just to begin, what will be a constant warning, every episode I’m going to have to say this or now on that. Maybe the dates are off. Maybe it didn’t last as long maybe it lasted longer really held this? Certainly not us, and certainly not Livy. Yeah. Anyway. So there are many ways we’re starting in 406, a conflict that apparently is going to go all the way down to 396.
Dr G 9:17 Okay, okay.
Dr Rad 9:19 So, because this is a big deal, I thought maybe we should do a little bit of a recap about Veii. Okay. So geographically, I know you’re very well acquainted with where Veii is now because it is super close to Rome.
Dr G 9:35 It is. So realistically we’re talking it’s about it’s less than, like 20 kilometers away from Rome, centre proper
Dr Rad 9:43 Which in Australian terms is basically next door.
Dr G 9:47 Well, and even in Italy, it’s basically like, let’s not kid ourselves. You could walk there on a good day, and be like, Oh, hey, guys, it’s the Etruscans a completely different people.
Dr Rad 9:57 Yeah, So because they’re so close, it makes sense that they are constantly fighting these people, because the Romans are constantly fighting all of their neighbors. But they, I suppose having those a trust and connections, I guess that makes them perhaps more ripe for conflict in some ways, because you know, the Etruscans are a major power, they’re a major player, you know, there’s glory to be won here, Dr. G.
Dr G 9:59 Yeah, and faith does have the capacity to leverage much more support than the neighbors in the other directions surrounding Rome at this point. So Rome has got this thing going on with the Volscii and the Aequii who are kind of to the south east-ish. And those people don’t seem to be interconnected into a broader empire of sorts, or a broader conglomerate. There’s kind of like, Latin peoples, and they’re all kind of milling around in the same sort of area as Rome. But they’re not necessarily power blocks, whereas Veii represents the most southern tip of Etrurian power. And the Etruscans are known for having quite a reach up through central into northern Italy.
Dr Rad 11:14 Yes, exactly. And on a more local level, they being so close, they probably have control of some territory, that’d be really handy for the Romans to have, not just so they can say, mine is bigger, but so they have control of, you know, like trade routes, you know, more access to resources that are pretty damn close by.
Dr G 11:36 Yes, it would be nice to knock Veii off its pedestal, wouldn’t it?
Dr Rad 11:44 Yes, it would. Just to do a bit of a recap of where we’ve been with a because Okay, I’m sorry, I have to do a bit of spoilers. This is going to be the last of the big conflicts with Veii –
Dr G 11:56 Oh, no! Close your ears listeners!
Dr Rad 11:57 Well, I didn’t say who was gonna win. But I mean, you know, put two and two. So this is going to be the last. So the first really big conflict with a and I mean, obviously, there’s been issues with the Etruscans. We believe the sources which we we tend to because there’s nothing else to do. There’s obviously been some Etruscan questions in the regal period, notably, thanks to Tarquinius, Priscus, etc. But in terms of the Republic, there was a war with a that lasted from 43 to 474. And they definitely was pretty hot in that conflict did pretty well for themselves. And this is the time period in which we have that very famous moment of the fabulous Fabian strategy.
Dr G 12:50 Yes, they were fabulous. right up into the point where they all died. Yes.
Dr Rad 12:54 All, apart from one that would carry the name. Down through the centuries.
Dr G 13:01 But you were the chosen one!
Dr Rad 13:03 Yes, yes. So that didn’t end well. For the Romans. The people have they got to keep Fidenae which they are, which always has its greedy little eyes on and that sort of thing. They’d been embarrassed even though obviously, the Fabians seem to have just like gone out on their own bat and be like, yeah, if we just take our clients and our family and sort this out? Sick, bro. Yeah. Yeah, in spite of that, still embarrassing, because they still obviously come from Rome represent the room and interests, and that sort of thing. So that wasn’t great. Then more recently, and our listeners might remember this, we of course, had the conflict over Fidenae, which flared up again in the 430s. And the for 20 years, although the dates of course, were super confusing.
Dr G 13:53 Ah, yes. This is one of those instances where all of the events around Fidenae seem to either happen at one time, or they happened a completely different decades. Nobody’s really quite sure really, but it happened. This is where Lars Tolumnius comes into play.
Dr Rad 14:09 It is, it is, yes, the Etruscan King.
Dr G 14:12 I knew I remembered something about history,
Dr Rad 14:14 Indeed, slain on the battlefield. It’s very sad. So that obviously was a pretty big thing, because with the source material being so confusing, it seemed like that conflict was going on for like a good decade. And maybe it was maybe it was, but certainly there was a lot of changing of allegiances with Fidenae being like, you know, well Fidenae was the hot potato. They were throwing backwards and forwards and was also trying to pick what was best for itself, which was very difficult with Roman and Veii being like you should be with me.
Dr G 14:46 I think they chose Veii and that made Rome mad.
Dr Rad 14:48 It did, it certainly did. It certainly did. So we’ve had that. But it’s been fairly quiet, obviously, because of the way things ended. You know, there was a truce to know. However, hostility is about to recommence, Dr. G, and it really all begins because the Senate in they are just so rude.
Dr G 15:07 Really? Rude about what? They don’t want the new treaty they don’t want to renewal?
Dr Rad 15:15 So as we know, treaties running out Romans are dealing with this people may seem too interested in this too. But they had asked the Romans for a little bit of you know, timeout because they were dealing with some internal problems. When the Romans approached them in this year, allegedly, the Senate as they tells the Romans to get the hell out if they don’t want a taste of what Lars Tolumnius had dished out to the Romans before. In other words, death.
Dr G 15:41 Interesting. I wonder what provoked that?
Dr Rad 15:44 I know. I know. So.
Dr G 15:47 It seems to have come out of nowhere, really
Dr Rad 15:48 I know – they were so nice to each other last year, and yet here we are. Maybe they are, maybe they are being strategic. Maybe they just wanted a little bit more time to prepare lower them in exactly false pretenses. Anyway, needless to say, wherever this hostility came from, the Romans are living so insulted so they say to the military tribunes, could you please just go to the people and ask them to declare war against pay for I will not stand for such an insult.
Dr G 16:23 Fair enough. Yeah. I wouldn’t either.
Dr Rad 16:25 No. So the military tribunes do this, of course, but they meet with a less than enthusiastic reception. And this is an interesting episode, I think. Apparently, the young men are kind of like, ‘Oh, my God, seriously, like another war? Like, do you not realize that we’re still like fighting with the Volscians? I mean, every year were still fighting and it’s just so much war and you want to do it on like, multiple directions. I can’t even.’
Dr G 16:58 ‘Guys, I’m still in therapy after Verrugo,’
Dr Rad 17:01 ‘My trauma, my trauma.’
Dr G 17:05 Fair enough. I would be like that, too. I’d be like, it’s too soon. Guys, I’ve already seen blood.
Dr Rad 17:10 Yeah. Well, I mean, that is fair, because they are still engaged with ongoing tiffs with the Volscians every other year.
Dr G 17:17 Hmm. I was gonna say it’s not like things have settled down to the southeast.
Dr Rad 17:21 No, Verrugo just happened, you know, they remember that, you know, and so they really don’t want to go to war. And they particularly don’t want to go to war with Veii because they know from experience, that they’re tough. They’re really close. And because there is obviously an Etruscan power. There’s always the potential that they’re gonna call it all their buddies, all the other Etruscan cities and kingdoms, and it’s just gonna get out of hand.
Dr G 17:50 Yeah, okay. Yeah. I don’t want to do that either. I mean, there’s got to be a way.
Dr Rad 17:54 Yeah. Yeah. So this is interesting. You know, as of time of recording, we just recently spoke to a magnificent guest, Bret Devereaux. He reminded us how little we actually know about military operations at this point in time. But I do think it’s interesting that there is the story of like, you know, the lack of interest, you know, people not wanting to sign up. Yeah, it does highlight, obviously, the volunteer, somewhat ad hoc nature of Roman military at this time.
Dr G 18:25 Yes, this idea that we’ve got a sort of a citizen militia that’s kind of can can be called upon, but also gets to express its viewpoint about what’s happening.
Dr Rad 18:35 Yeah.
Dr G 18:36 So they’re not just, it’s not just a state military apparatus.
Dr Rad 18:41 Certainly not yet.
Dr G 18:42 No, it is kind of like a group of people getting together being like, ‘Well, we really should poke sticks in those people over there?’ And, and people in the group being like, ‘I’m not sure I want to do that right now.’
Dr Rad 18:53 Yeah, exactly. Like, I can’t.
Dr G 18:57 I’m really busy.
Dr Rad 19:00 Really need to get some farming done, guys.
Dr G 19:02 Do you want to eat grain? I want to eat grain.
Dr Rad 19:04 I would love to have some bread. Yeah. So this unhappiness is made a lot worse by our old friends the tribunes of the plebs.
Dr G 19:13 Oh, no. Do we even know the names of any of those guys right now?
Dr Rad 19:16 That’d be silly.
Dr G 19:20 I was like, I don’t have any of the plebs in my list, but maybe you do know.
Dr Rad 19:24 Yeah, just generically troublesome in my account.
Dr G 19:27 Okay. Yeah. nameless, troublesome figures. I like it.
Dr Rad 19:31 Yeah. Well, which works kind of either way, I think for a little while. But anyway, so they of course latch on to this. They’re like, excellent. We’ll use this and they start making a lot of public declarations saying things like, the Senate don’t really want to wage war and the Volscians are they they’re really waging war on the plebs.
Dr G 19:51 Oh, this is actually a new line for them. I think I like it. Yeah. It’s a war on the people. That’s what it is and I won’t have it.
Dr Rad 19:57 Yeah. And then like, don’t you see, can’t you see the pattern, the way that they’re going about it is that they constantly keep running in a state of war, which means that the beings are constantly having to fight, which means that they get injured or die, or at the very least, it’s keeping them out of the city, often far away from the city. Whereas if they were allowed to just kick back, sit on the couch, once in a while, stay at home, not be distracted by the constant threat of death and battle, then they might have had the time to think about, you know, freedom, how they want it, how to get it, setting up colonies, where they can have land and that sort of thing. After all, let’s not forget that they are apparently the people who are winning these public lands, and they should be able to vote wherever they want, whenever they want, do whatever they want. They do everything!
Dr G 19:59 All right. Okay, I appreciate this argument. I really do. But I can also see how this is not going to fly with the elite in charge around here, who are looking at the horizon, seeing Veii beating some sticks together and being like, ‘Look, if we don’t do something, they’re going to take this place and then we’ll have nowhere to live. Guys, guys!’
Dr Rad 21:23 For sure. I can totally see that too. And when we’re there in Rome, I mean, the ancient city a very is now within the modern city of Rome. That’s how close these places are. And therefore, it is probably a bit of a, ‘Look one has to go eventually.’
Dr G 21:41 Yeah. There ain’t enough room in this town for the two of us
Dr Rad 21:47 There ain’t enough room in this top or valley for the both of us. But anyway, Look obviously into I agree with you, I get where they’re coming from I do I get whether the patricians are coming from I also get that this is horribly anachronistic.
Dr G 22:05 The best we can say
Dr Rad 22:06 Exactly. Probably didn’t actually happen. But anyway, let’s continue on because it’s a great story. We’re about to get to my favorite part. So they then start speaking to the old veterans in the group, get them to talk about their campaigns, what they sacrificed over the years. And of course, Dr. G. It’s time for a plebeian to get his shirt off.
Dr G 22:27 Whoohoo
Dr Rad 22:27 Oh, yeah. It’s be way too long since somebody ripped off their tunic and showed their battle scars.
Dr G 22:34 I haven’t seen anybody’s wounds on the front for ages.
Dr Rad 22:36 I know. I know. I was very excited. A little too excited. But anyway, so hey, rip off their tunics. They show their battle scars.
Dr G 22:46 I was in Fidenae. I saw it all.
Dr Rad 22:50 I remember when Lars Tolumnius was thrown from his horse by Cossus into the ground and a place where the sun don’t shine, if you know what I mean. Now the tribune is pointed out that there’s barely any space left on their bodies for new scars.
Dr G 23:11 We can’t send these guys they’re not gonna get through
Dr Rad 23:13 Which is a grizzly image. If you think about it. I mean, I think about people that are addicted to tattoos and get tattoos all over their bodies, but scarring is like a different issue. That’s, that’s a lot.
Dr G 23:26 It is. It is a lot. The tunic was taken off and everybody was like, please put that back on.
Dr Rad 23:31 Oh, my god,
Dr G 23:34 Stop.
Dr Rad 23:36 Does your skin stretch at all?
Dr G 23:39 Alright, we weren’t send you It’s fine. It’s fine. We’ll send somebody else.
Dr Rad 23:42 Given ancient medicine, you’re a frickin miracle. Anyway, they’re like, What blood could they possibly now shed for Rome? They’ve already given so much. There’s barely any left in that body. They basically blew and not in a good way. So the sorts of speeches and demonstrations naturally make the plebeians even more anti war than they were before.
Dr G 24:11 Fair enough. Yeah. Sounds about right.
Dr Rad 24:14 So our magistrates, therefore decide that you know what, why don’t we just wait before we vote on this issue? And a feeling that it might not go our way if we vote immediately.
Dr G 24:26 There are some clever ones in there. All right.
Dr Rad 24:28 Yeah. So feel like insult must be advantage but pick your battles. You know, pick your moments. It was decided, therefore, that the military tribunes should move into Volscian territory with an army.
Dr G 24:43 Hmm,
Dr Rad 24:44 yes. And then we’re going to leave Gnaeus Cornelius behind in Rome, you know, just to keep an eye on things.
Dr G 24:50 Okay,
Dr Rad 24:51 Yup. The Volscians: Not in the mood for battle today. No, thank you. They didn’t even have a camp. They were caught without their makeup on, without their clothes ready, without their hair done.
Dr G 25:04 Oh, no. Yeah. They were like, ‘Word has it that the Romans are gonna be moving north this year. So I’m just gonna sleep in.’
Dr Rad 25:13 Exactly. Yeah, I can take take a beat. Take the year off. Yeah, no, you can’t. Now. So we got one military tribune in in Rome means we got the other three add on campaign and the strategy that they use is that they divide the army up into three sections. And each military tribune therefore gets to plunder and destroy a different part of Volscian country.
Dr G 25:36 Oh, I have a few details about this. But I am willing to hear where how Livy’s structures the narrative.
Dr Rad 25:45 Okay,
Dr G 25:45 And then and then I’ll jump in with what may be some irrelevant extra detail.
Dr Rad 25:50 Let’s go with it. Alright, so I feel a bit like I’m telling the story, the three little pigs: Valerius went to Antium. Cornelius went to Ecetra, Ecetrae, et cetera, et cetera.
Ah et chetera
Et chetray
Dr G 26:08 I don’t know.
Dr Rad 26:08 Yeah. Something.
Dr G 26:11 It starts with ‘e’ guys.
Dr Rad 26:13 Etc Et ketray. It probably is Et cet-tray.
Dr G 26:15 Et cet-tray
Dr Rad 26:16 Yeah,
Dr G 26:16 Let’s say Ecetra.
Dr Rad 26:17 I like calling it et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, by of course, they do the usual you know, like attacking buildings attacking farms, whenever they find them causing chaos. What a merry lark. And our final tribute, he went to Anxur, and this is of course that fabulous Fabian tribune. Now Anxur was the major target for this particular campaign. Now, I think the reason for that, Dr. G, is I don’t actually know that we’ve even mentioned this place before. And it’s further-
I don’t think we have, no.
Yeah, it’s further south, I think then they’ve generally gone like, as far as I can tell, this is even beyond Antium. Still
Dr G 26:59 Oh, yeah, I can tell you all about where it’s located.
Dr Rad 27:02 Thank you. I believe that it’s currently, if you were to go and want to see this site now, it’d be known as Terracina.
Dr G 27:10 Hmmm, yes, it is. So this is a place that is about 56 kilometers, or 35 miles southeast of Rome,
Dr Rad 27:23 My, you are prepared.
Dr G 27:25 I am prepared. If I know anything, I’m looking at places where I haven’t heard of them before. So it becomes the place where the Via Appia extends all the way down to it not in this time period. But in about another 100 years time, the Via Appia will head all the way straight into like a deadline for Rome down to this spot, right. And it’s on a really strategic location. So Italy has all of these sort of like mountain ranges that are formed through the volcanic activity in the the tectonic plates and stuff that sort of go down the middle of it. And this is a spot where a set of hills becomes the cliffs that fall into the sea.
Dr Rad 28:11 Okay.
Dr G 28:12 So when you’re in Anxur, you’re on the top of a hill. And you can see in every direction, basically. So pretty exciting stuff, because it’s in what is known as the Volscian hills. And you can see over what is known as the Pontine Marshes. Now this is the really super flat area that sits in between these hills and Rome itself. And when you’re like driving around in Italy today, I recommend you do it. All the roads there are really straight, because it’s just flat land. But you’ve got these amazing hills on one side, and then you’ve got the marshes and it’s just flat. You’re like, Okay, so you’ve got like a really clear view for a whole bunch of things. And we think historically, way back even pre Rome, wait for it that this was an Etruscan area.
Dr Rad 29:07 Oh, okay.
Dr G 29:08 Yeah, back in the seventh century BCE, right. And that it sort of splits away and the Volscians come in and it becomes their kind of thing. And, and they’ve been hanging out there. But Carthage also has a history with this spot as well.
Dr Rad 29:26 They do. It’s coastal.
Dr G 29:27 Yeah. Yeah, anything on the coast. Carthage is interested. The Punic peoples, they are a seafaring peoples. So they’ve had a treaty setup there since about the early republic. So this whole situation is really interesting because it is you’re right, it is much further south than Rome has gone before with a military enterprise. And they’re now taking what is a highly strategic Volscian location.
Dr Rad 29:59 Venturing where no Roman than has dared to go before.
Dr G 30:04 A small step for man, a giant step for a Roman military tribune with consular power.
Dr Rad 30:10 That’s right. All right. So, as you’ve highlighted because of the way it’s positioned, this is not a place that the Romans are just gonna be able to waltz in and plunder. This is a siege we’re facing, people. Now, as you said, there are marshes nearby, like the city apparently kind of slipped in the direction of the marshes. So that is where Fabius is kind of positioned. He has no other choice.
Dr G 30:39 I was gonna say that is not the strategic location to start your siege, but okay, Mr. Mr. Fabius.
Dr Rad 30:45 Yeah, well, that’s where he’s going to, that’s where he’s gonna position himself and he’s, he’s getting a little punchy, you know, he’s got a little keen taste, taste for battle. However, this is where our legate comes in. So Gaius Servilius Ahala, takes four cohorts. And he starts to move around the hill, which overlooks Anxur, and he starts attacking the hills from that position, which apparently is a very good position to do this from because there are no real troops there to fight back. Maybe they thought that no one would take that line of attack. I don’t know.
Dr G 31:22 They’re like, ‘these hills are hard to climb. Nobody’s gonna come that way.’
Dr Rad 31:25 Definitely. No one’s gonna do that. They’re also making a huge amount of noise whilst they’re doing this. Okay, so a huge racket to the point where the people who are inside the city are like, Oh, my God, could you just keep it down with trying to wage a war state or rock concert? Jeez.
Dr G 31:44 I’m trying to think about what the purpose of the noise would be, and maybe to scare the people into thinking that there’s a bigger army and
Dr Rad 31:49 It’s a tactic. It’s a technique. So obviously, the people who are focusing on Fabius, who’s doing his little like, jab, jab, punch from down in the marshes.
Dr G 32:03 Come down here and say that, I’ll take you down.
Dr Rad 32:06 They’re confused by the noise. It’s very distracting. And because they are distracted by the noise that’s being caused by Ahala. It allows Fabius apparently to sneak in some scaling ladders.
Dr G 32:23 Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Dr Rad 32:25 Exactly. And Anxur is soon swarming with Romans. And this is a pretty brutal conquest, Dr. G., they are slaughtering everyone and anyone citizen soldier, armed, unarmed, who cares. You’re on the end of my sword.
Dr G 32:45 Huh? Okay, so this issue, this moment in time between Rome, the Volscians and Anxur, yes, this is one of those rare moments where we have a fragment from Ennius.
Dr Rad 32:59 Oh, okay. Tell me more about this early, early source.
Dr G 33:04 Our, early early source. So Ennius is most famous for writing a poem called the Annales and he was born in 239 BCE, we think so he’s third century. So this puts him much earlier than Livy, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, any of the sources that we’re reading really? Yeah. And so this becomes one of these moments that we’re able to locate, because we’ve got a much earliest written source, okay. So, Ennius is somebody who is not Roman, he is somebody who comes to Rome later in life. And he speaks a number of different languages. So he is from what is ancient Calabria, which is part of broader Magna Grecia. Right? So he speaks Greek. He also speaks Oscan. And he also speaks Latin, handy. And this seems to be like pretty typical for what is going on in Italy during this way.
Dr Rad 34:11 Yeah, you’ve got the Greeks in the south, you’ve got the Oscans on the – wait – you’ve got the Oscans to the east…
Dr G 34:18 The Oscans are kind of to the east a little bit, but they kind of spread like a little band that separates the Greeks and the Latin speakers if you like so he’s kind of got like this sweep of things from sort of south to center in terms of his languages. This means that he’s got not just a sort of an interest in Roman things. He’s got an interest in the broader region as well. And he mentioned this as he mentioned the Roman ladders in Anxur and he also mentions the way that the Volscians lose. So these are the two details that that we get from a different source for this.
Dr Rad 34:54 Okay. Well, okay. Let us corroborate: ladders – tick.So obviously with Romans all about their city, too dangerous etc, as they tend to be, the people who live there, they’ve got nothing to gain at this point by surrounding because the Romans are just too indiscriminate in their violence. And so it looks like they just gonna have to power on regardless which, again, it’s not going to end well for them that I guess at least I took a few Romans with them, right. But suddenly, the Romans are receiving instruction that they’re not to harm anyone, unless they’re holding a weapon. And so the people of Anxur are very quick to drop it like it’s hot.
Dr G 35:37 ‘What are you talking about? Mah? That touched me, I didn’t pick it up.’
Dr Rad 35:43 ‘That’s not mine. I mean sure it’s got my name inscribed on it, but whatever.’ So this is how this is how it ends? It means that the Romans are able to capture approximately 2,500 people.
Dr G 35:59 Okay, that’s a lot.
Dr Rad 36:00 Yeah. And I mean, considering that we haven’t really talked much about, you know, prisoners of war of late. But it wasn’t that long ago that they also captured, you know, a few 1,000. And so yeah, all of a sudden, we can see that, with the Romans being a bit more aggressive. Being a bit more expansionist in the region. We’re starting to see prisoners being taken again, allegedly, the numbers are very round. That’s all I’m gonna say.
Dr G 36:27 You telling me somebody’s not keeping a proper count. Goodness me.
Dr Rad 36:32 Anyway. So Fabius now comes in, and he tells his man, ‘Look, you need to leave the booty here until the other military tribunes arrive on the scene.’ Okay, after all, you know, this is this is a joint effort we’re talking about here. And also, you know, Ahala, he also was key, they managed to do the ladder thing, because they were just so damn noisy. So once all of the three military tribunes and Ahala represent as well sort of all converged on Anxur, the three armies and all get to lay waste to the town together, because the family that raids together stays together. And Anxur is a real win, not just strategically, although that is obviously a big thing. That’s the main reason why they want it. But it’s also a very rich place at this point in time, they’ve been doing pretty well for themselves. So, you know, it’s it’s a good time had by the Romans, it’s a good day.
Dr G 37:35 It does seem like they’ve gone in the very opposite direction, and quite far in the opposite direction though, from Veii.
Dr Rad 37:43 Yes, yes. Well, I think you’ll see why in a second here. So because all the soldiers were able to come together, and raid this very rich city, and they’ve had their success. This starts to make the plebeians think, maybe the patricians aren’t so bad. After all, there’s no better way to say that you’re sorry, then with goods stolen from the enemy?
Dr G 38:09 Oh, that’s true. I’m feeling buffed up by all of this booty.
Dr Rad 38:13 Yeah, and again, if we if we unpack this a little bit with what we know about the Roman army, or rather, what we don’t know, at this point in time, because it is made up with people who are volunteers, as far as we can tell, and they are people who obviously, therefore, you know, they go to work, and they need to, but otherwise they’re living their lives, and that sort of thing. Being able to raid like this makes sense. This is probably what warfare at this point in time is really about. It’s not huge state run armies. You don’t probably have magistrates, who get to say, who gets to keep what and who gets what, all the time, you know, it would have to be that these guys are, they’re not getting paid. So them being able to take stuff when they win a battle. That’s their pet. That’s what they get for doing this for risking their lives and for leaving their families and their farms.
Dr G 39:12 Yeah. And this sort of going out as far as Rome has, at this point, taking this place that they’ve never taken before. This would be a real, I don’t want to say cash injection, but it’s kind of what I mean is like there’s like a wealth accruing there from taking somewhere new and different.
Dr Rad 39:30 Absolutely. Yeah. Now, this is where we get a very big decision being made, Dr. G. And nobody had even asked for it, which we know as women. That’s what matters the most right that you didn’t actually have to ask. So the Senate makes this big decision that they’re going to start paying soldiers.
Dr G 39:55 What?
Dr Rad 39:56 Yeah, yeah,
Dr G 39:57 No.
Dr Rad 39:58 Yeah. So the state-slash-public treasury and now going to pay the man who are fighting for them, which is described by Livy as the most seasonable boon, which has ever been bestowed on them by the chiefs of state.
Dr G 40:14 Okay, now, I’m not sure, first, that I believe that this is going to be the start of sustained payment.
Dr Rad 40:21 I don’t think it is either. No, I don’t think so.
Dr G 40:25 The only other source that I have for this year is Florus.
Dr Rad 40:28 Mmm Okay?
Dr G 40:30 And Florus, he talks about this 10 year siege of Veii, the foreshadowing thing. And he talks about how this is the first time that a Roman army has to spend the winter in campaign. So all of a sudden, they’re out in the cold. So rather than usually the idea of the Roman campaigning season, as far as we theoretically understand that we have no idea how it’s actually working at this point in time. But the idea is that in spring, you get together, you do the levee, and then you go out, and summertime is battle time.
Dr Rad 41:09 Yeah.
Dr G 41:10 And when things start to cool down again, in autumn, you definitely want to bring everybody home. Things don’t happen in winter time, everybody’s busy trying to stay warm, to stay out on campaign through the winter, is a whole extra sort of layer of challenge. You would need different equipment, better equipment, perhaps more weatherproof equipment. But if you’re going to do a siege properly, and it’s going to keep being a siege for as long as it needs to be a siege, you kind of have to stay in the field. And this is the moment that Florus suggest that because winter service was required of the soldiers. And this is in relation to Veii so we might be getting ahead of ourselves here. They get compensated with a special payment.
Dr Rad 41:59 Yeah, so I think you I think you hit the nail on the head, you have jumped ahead a little bit in my narrative. But yes, you are right, it does seem to be tied very much with Veii with the fact that there seems to be a much more sustained campaign. Is it 10 years? Who knows. But it definitely does seem to be more sustained than what the Romans have recently been doing, which is basically, you know, running across borders. And running back again. And certainly, so we can believe that there is some sort of payment in terms of it being like cash, like we would think of it like cha ching coin.
Dr G 42:35 Yeah. You rock up and the coin store is like and that’s your check. Cash it wisely.
Dr Rad 42:41 Yeah, it seems unlikely that that’s what’s happening at this point in time. The Romans don’t have coinage in this moment, it’s more, it’s more likely that they’re getting paid in a sense of they’re getting certain goods and food would be the most likely source of payment, I would imagine.
Dr G 42:59 Yeah. And we sort of get that sense that prior to this, the informal way of compensating people is through the booty system. So the idea that you go out, you do the reading, you grab the other people’s stuff. And that’s how you compensate people because then people either use that stuff, or maybe they trade that stuff.
Dr Rad 43:17 Yeah. And as was very usefully highlighted by Bret Devereaux. I’m going to keep mentioning him because it’s just a very military episode. As he mentioned, when you have an army like this, the people that who are going out and fighting even though the whole accounts been very much swept up in this conflict of the oddest narrative, which we keep going on and on about, it probably isn’t the super, super poor people that are going out and fighting at this moment in time. It’s probably still people that are, you know, relatively well off. So they’ve been able to do this kind of warfare up until this point, but being away on campaign for a long time. Well, that is different. And also if you want more manpower, then you have to make it possible for the poorer people to serve.
Dr G 44:09 Yeah, there needs to be a way to make sure that it’s possible for them to take the time.
Dr Rad 44:14 Yeah. And for the state not to suffer you know, you do still need people to stay at home and farm. Yeah, anyway, so as you highlighted, this pay probably is linked to the future campaign per se, but there hasn’t been mentioned yet, Dr. G. But just giving it to people they just didn’t dancing it okay and are so excited. This is like Christmas.
Dr G 44:43 Oh Livy, this narrative is wild.
Dr Rad 44:46 So crowds start to gather together in the Curia. And this is okay, apparently, it would be amazing. Of course,
Dr G 44:53 In a nice public building if they’ve got one.
Dr Rad 44:55 Yeah, exactly. Men are shaking the hands of senators as they come out of this historic meeting. They’re saying to them, ‘You know what? We’ve had to call you, the fathers. But now you really deserve it.’
Dr G 45:12 Daddy,
Dr Rad 45:14 Oh my god you are my real dad.
Dr G 45:17 I feel like I’d be a real son now.
Dr Rad 45:20 It’s just like all these years. It’s kind of felt like you didn’t really care but you did. And you are my father. You are the patres. You are the patres.
Dr G 45:36 Wow, the emotion. They’re running high.
Dr Rad 45:39 Yeah, exactly. Everyone’s saying, ‘You know what, now no one would mind serving in the army. Blood shmud, death schmeth, who cares? I mean, Rome, as a state is just so insanely generous, that it’s just a pleasure and an honour to serve.’
Dr G 46:00 Guys, you’ve made it easy for me to say yes. Now you really have.
Dr Rad 46:02 Yeah, they really extra tickled, like the joy is really, you know, just gone. Right up there. Because not only were they not losing money anymore, when they went out of fight potentially, obviously, depends if you get booty and that sort of thing. But it’s really the fact that the Senate did this without being asked. They hadn’t even been pushing for this. It’s a spontaneous gift. It’s like when your partner takes the rubbish out without having to be asked, you know, when they put their plate in the dishwasher without having to be asked or they tidy their room without having to be asked.
Dr G 46:39 Well, I don’t know what’s going on in your house, but it sounds very exciting.
Dr Rad 46:44 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now, the tribunes of the plebs, of course, are not pleased. They’re the only party poopers in this situation.
Dr G 46:54 I wonder why? They’ve been undercut, haven’t they?
Dr Rad 46:57 Exactly. Whose scars are going to show now? They felt like the plebeians were deluded. They’re like, ‘Guys, this is not going to benefit you quite this much like take it down a notch. It’s just one of those things that the Senate do, where I assure it looks good on paper, or whatever it is we’re using right now to record things. But it’s not going to play out that well in real life, or telling you this, this isn’t how the Senate is work. This isn’t how patricians work.’
Dr G 47:27 Yeah, ‘you need to be more suspicious, guys. A little bit more skepticism could go a long way right now.’
Dr Rad 47:32 Well, they do make a very good point, Dr. G. And it’s what a question that we still asked to this day, which is, where’s the money coming from? Follow the many people! Who’s going to be paying for this?
Dr G 47:46 I mean, if it’s bags of grain if they’re being paid in food, that food has been produced by the very people who it’s been given to.
Dr Rad 47:54 How dare you interrupt my delightfully anachronistic account of Livy? Where we are apparently talking about money?
Dr G 48:02 I’m sorry, I’m sorry.
Dr Rad 48:04 He basically says, ‘Look, it’s gonna be the people that are funding this. The senators? Oh, sure. They’re so generous when it comes to making payments with other people’s money.’
Dr G 48:15 Exactly.
Dr Rad 48:17 Which, okay, let’s just take a break. Even if we’re not talking about actual money, it might be other people’s goods or grain that we’re talking about here. So I take your point. Yeah.
Dr G 48:31 Either way, I don’t think it’s coming out of the pockets of the rich.
Dr Rad 48:35 That’s the point. That’s the point even if whatever we’re talking about whether we’re talking about grain, whether we are in fact talking about some sort of valuable metal, whatever it is, we’re talking about, and I’m putting my money on the grain. It’s not going to be coming from they’re not privately funding this. The tribunes of the plebs also point out. What about the people who had already served? Right okay to be happy that people are now getting paid. There’s no back pay system. Come on. No, no, don’t like it’s going to be coming out of their pockets, but they didn’t get paid. That’s a bit of a you know, a bit of a nice to the heart right there.
Dr G 49:15 That’s a recipe for discontent.
Dr Rad 49:16 That is it is yeah. Now some of the plebeians are like okay, good points, fair points. I hear what you’re saying. and I are going to wind back my enthusiasm just a tad.
Dr G 49:32 Daddy, thank you. I’ll write you a card.
Dr Rad 49:36 The tribunes don’t come out and say – sorry, the tribunes of the plebs – I always have to qualify that because there’s so many tribunes at the moment. They say we will make sure that anyone who refuses to pay any sort of tax for soldier pay, we will protect you. We will look out for you because this is not a good system. This is not fair. This is not what should be happening.
Dr G 49:58 Interesting.
Dr Rad 49:59 I know So even though the senators are being very clever here, because as you highlighted, they’re totally thinking about very when they’re introducing this. They’ve been very clever not let on that. That’s what it’s about. The tribunes are also being very clever, and foreseeing that there’s a problem with this in that, where’s it all going to come from? However, the senators are determined to this is going to go through. So determined that they do put in some of their own money, and I’m using my flesh rabbits there, because once again, what money? There is no coinage. And Livy apparently says that the way that they pay is they bring in unclaimed bronze in wagons to the Treasury. Now, I did actually talk about this in another episode thinking I had already mentioned this. But this is where we have to be like, really? Is that what they did? I’m not sure like maybe, I don’t know, but it does seem-
Dr G 51:02 Where did they find this? This bronze?
Dr Rad 51:05 It just doesn’t seem like the way that Rome is operating right now.
Dr G 51:11 Okay, yeah. Look, I, I don’t have a perspective one way or the other or that I but I think I have questions.
Dr Rad 51:18 At least Livy knows that it should be uncoined bronze. But anyway, but they make sure that people see them doing it. That’s the whole point. Yeah, so like, oh, this wagon so heavy, my animals was straining to bring it in to the Treasury. However, wil I carry so much uncoined bronze?
Dr G 51:42 The blanket that’s covering it slips off and like, ‘oh, goodness, is that what’s in there?’
Dr Rad 51:46 Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I didn’t want anyone to know, this is meant to be anonymous. I wanted to hide my name. Anyway, so with the senators bringing in some of their own cash for lack of a better term – goods. They also want their clients I think to start bringing in contributions.
Dr G 52:10 All right, yeah. They have to raise funds somehow now. If you’re gonna pay people, you need to pay them with something. Yes, regardless of what that something is.
Dr Rad 52:19 Yeah. And it seems that they might be recruiting some of the wealthier plebeians to do this. Which is really interesting, because we’ve always talked about the nuance of the supposed Conflict of the Orders. So it is interesting to once again highlight that it’s not as clear cut as patricians versus plebeians. It’s probably wealthy people versus other people, much like every other society. Anyway, the crowd start to see a course that people are bringing in their own money, and that these people were being praised by the patricians for doing that. People of military age, who always are going to be the ones on the front lines, and who are going to be obviously benefiting from this. They’re like, wow, this is amazing.
Dr G 53:06 Sign me up, I’ll go anywhere, I’ll do anything.
Dr Rad 53:10 They’re doing their duty by making these contributions and allowing for this payment system to be possible. So this starts to turn them against the tribunes of the plebs here, and everyone starts competing with each other to make their own donations. Now, when I say everyone, I’m presuming again. Everyone wealthy.
Dr G 53:30 Every rich person.
Dr Rad 53:31 Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 53:33 Like this is how we’re going to get them on side.
Dr Rad 53:35 It’s at this point, that war is declared on Veii, because of course, they have no problem fielding an army after all of this.
Dr G 53:44 It’s time guys. were bursting at the seams with troops.
Dr Rad 53:48 Yeah. Now, as you’ve said, although we have to question a lot of the material from this early period. It does make sense that there was a payment of sorts involved in this campaign, at least at some point, maybe not straightaway, maybe straightaway, who knows. But it probably wasn’t something that the Romans kept in play consistently from this moment on. It was probably exactly because they is going to be a special case.
Dr G 54:19 Yes, I dare say so. So whatever is going to happen. And at the moment, in Livy’s, narrative, nothing yet has happened with Veii except for the decision to go to war. But it seems like whatever is going to happen in Veii is going to be significant enough that Rome has to change the way it does things in order to pursue its military objectives.
Dr Rad 54:41 Absolutely. And Veii is a valid military objective.
Dr G 54:46 Look they have been a thorn in Rome side pretty much since the beginning.
Dr Rad 54:50 So maybe even before, after all the Etruscans seem to have been earlier.
Dr G 54:56 That’s true. Yeah.
Dr Rad 54:58 Now that is where 406 actually winds up for me with the beginning, the beginning of conflict with Veii on the horizon.
Dr G 55:07 All right. Well, I think that’s probably an excellent place to then wrap up this episode. I certainly don’t have too much to add. I think I’ve, I’ve sprinkled in the little fragments of sources as they’ve appeared in relation to things. The only other thing that I could tell you is Diodorus Siculus does go into the broader Mediterranean politics a little bit,
Dr Rad 55:32 I’d love to hear that.
Dr G 55:34 And mostly focusing on Sicily at this point. So Sicily has been taken over by tyrants. We’re kind, we’ve got a guy called Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse. And he is now looking to expand his power and territorial influence. So he’s sitting in a pretty strategic location already with Syracuse. But he’s like, You know what I would like to dominate all of the east coast of Sicily as my like branching out process. He’s really interested in taking over Naxos, which is a little bit further up; Catane, which becomes Catania.; And Leontinoi, which is a little bit further north of Syracuse, but before you get to Catane. So he’s keen to do that. And he’s sort of like eyeing off how he’s going to do it. And facing some pressure from Punic forces, because a lot of these places are being contested right now. And the Carthaginians have a presence in Sicily already. So that’s kind of like this tussling going on in the south. And that’s it.
Dr Rad 56:55 Okay. All right. Well, let’s get into it. Dr. G, it’s time for the Partial Pick
So tell me, Dr. G., exactly how does the Partial Pick work?
Dr G 57:11 Alright, so Rome, could potentially win 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each out of 10. Let us see how they do according to their own systems of valuing themselves.
Dr Rad 57:25 But judged by us.
Dr G 57:28 We certainly wouldn’t judge the Romans. The first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 57:33 Okay. Well, I think this is a bad a year for that. I mean, they can’t get Anxur which seemed difficult. And yet, they did it with relatively little trouble.
Dr G 57:46 Seems to go pretty well, really, once they got the mountain caterwauling going on, and they were fine.
Dr Rad 57:55 Ahala they have it? I don’t it’s also the apparent year that military pay was introduced deep reservations. But this is what we’re told. And I believe it is corroborated by a number of sources. So gonna have to believe Livy here. So I kind of am tempted to give them 10 out of 10.
Dr G 58:16 Wow. Okay.
Dr Rad 58:19 I mean, I could go as low as eight. But I don’t think it can be any lower than that.
Dr G 58:24 Let’s say nine. I’m always the ever the diplomat. I think yeah, I’m wondering what would be a 10 now for me, but uh, I think it would be more than the taking of one place, and the putative introduction of military pay. But yes.
Dr Rad 58:46 Look, I think we can believe that they are introducing some form of compensation, potentially just for the time that they are fighting with me.
Dr G 58:56 Look, I think my concern is, first of all, that in the very fragments resources that I have the siege with they would have had to start in 406. Because it’s, the payment is a consequence of a military situation. Not the inducement to encourage a military force
Dr Rad 59:19 Dr. G., the patricians are way too clever. They knew they knew that this would win the pavilions onto their side again.
Dr G 59:29 I have a high degree of skepticism about Livy’s timeline here, even within the narrow bracket in which he’s providing so
Dr Rad 59:40 Timeline schimeline.
Dr G 59:42 it seems far more likely to me that military payment is introduced as a consequence of certain things happening. But yes, oh,
Dr Rad 59:51 Oh the patricians are far more devious and you give them credit for politicians par excellence?
Dr G 1:00:01 That is not what we have seen so far and you know it. Nice try. All right. I’ll give them a nine. That’s fine. Okay. And then we move on to Diplomacy.
Dr Rad 1:00:14 We may. I don’t know that there’s not even vague, vague.
Dr G 1:00:19 I was gonna say he doesn’t try to be diplomatic and Rome certainly doesn’t try to solve that situation with diplomacy.
Dr Rad 1:00:25 The insults are for lying.
Dr G 1:00:27 That’s a failure on every level.
Dr Rad 1:00:29 Unfortunately, a zero
Dr G 1:00:31 Expansion.
Dr Rad 1:00:33 Yes.
Dr G 1:00:35 I assume at this point, it’s obviously hard to know. But the the assumption that seems to be built into Livy’s narrative, and the fragments that I’ve got as well is that they get to hold Anxur for a while if not forever.
Dr Rad 1:00:51 Yeah.
Dr G 1:00:51 So this is the moment where they do expand their territory. And it’s significant because it is much further from Rome than say something like for Verrugo and even Antium, which they have struggled to hold in the past.
Dr Rad 1:01:04 Well fairly recently it would seem. Yeah. Okay. So what are you willing to give them Dr. G?
Dr G 1:01:12 Look, I think a six.
Dr Rad 1:01:13 What, what? It’s of strategic significance!
Dr G 1:01:20 It’s one place.
Dr Rad 1:01:21 I know, but it’s going to be just one place for a while now.
Dr G 1:01:25 Which is, you know, I mean,
Dr Rad 1:01:27 how about a seven?
Dr G 1:01:31 Fine.
Dr Rad 1:01:32 Yay.
I’m on your side Rome. Together, we’ll get over 25 and 50.
Dr G 1:01:40 Meanwhile, I’ll keep giving them low scores. I just want to see more effort guys. All right. Okay. The fourth category is Virtus.
Dr Rad 1:01:51 Okay,
Dr G 1:01:52 Their idea of Roman manliness. Like, how courageous How significant is their expression of their masculinity right now?
Dr Rad 1:02:06 Well, I think there’s a bit of virtus in this episode.
Dr G 1:02:08 It’s been a while. We’ve definitely seen some scars. We have maybe too many scars.
Dr Rad 1:02:14 Definitely too many. I have scars for life.
Dr G 1:02:19 But I think as soon as anybody takes off their tunic to show their scars, I think we can safely say we’re in a virtus moment.
Dr Rad 1:02:27 Yeah. It’s not the best moment.
Dr G 1:02:29 It’s not the best moment. But it is an inducement. It is a display in public of how they’ve contributed to Romanness through their body.
Dr Rad 1:02:41 Yeah.
Dr G 1:02:42 So this idea that Roman manhood is embodied in a really particular way. And one of those really particular ways is through that military sacrifice, and the courage that it takes to not flee from battle, because the thing about showing your wounds is the wounds have to be on the front of your body. Or on the back in order to count for waiters. Nobody wants to see that you ran away, and somebody tried to stab you.
Dr Rad 1:03:09 I’m super curious as to why Livy’s Like there’s not even any space on their bodies. For most guys. I’m like, Well, they’d want to be on the back.
Dr G 1:03:18 Well, maybe, and maybe he’s talking exclusively about the front,
Dr Rad 1:03:23 I assume as much is the case
Dr G 1:03:23 Maybe it’s the case that some of the skirmishes do lead to a lot of other kinds of scars.
Dr Rad 1:03:29 This is true, but yeah, Look, I mean, especially for someone who is a Roman citizen, and although I might be projecting backwards a little bit, but I think that this is probably true for this time. In theory, also showing your body in public is not something that you do on a regular basis.
Dr G 1:03:49 Yeah, the Romans aren’t into that. They’re not very, they’re not very cool with bodies. This is where well before the time that they come into, like strong contact with Greek culture and really embrace some of that stuff. Yeah, but even when they do embrace the Greek cultural side, there’s a whole bunch of Greek things that the Greeks are comfortable with that the Romans are never never comfortable with to do with body
Dr Rad 1:04:10 The Romans as a people were there like there’s a time and a place and a status. Slaves are the ones you know, slaves and prostitutes and gladiators. You’re all the ones that show off your bodies in public, not I.
Dr G 1:04:25 The Romans are an awkward people when it comes to some stuff to do with bodies. So yeah, yeah. They’d be like, Oh, okay, all the scars are at the front. Verified. Please put the tunic back on.
Dr Rad 1:04:35 Put it away. So what like a three do you think?
Dr G 1:04:38 Ooh, maybe a four.
Dr Rad 1:04:41 Oh okay. Hey, big spender.
Dr G 1:04:43 Hello.
Dr Rad 1:04:45 All right. All right. Okay. final category.
Dr G 1:04:47 Our final category is the Citizens Score
Well they are very excited
The citizens do score don’t they
Dr Rad 1:04:54 They really do they do. They know what’s coming but they think they do.
Dr G 1:05:00 Like, Oh, hail the fathers.
Dr Rad 1:05:04 I mean, to think about all the times that the citizens have been so unhappy, and all of a sudden had to do was institute military pay.
Dr G 1:05:13 The solution was right there, guys.
Dr Rad 1:05:15 I mean, having said this, obviously, as we’ve, as we’ve talked about, this is presumably opening the door for a wider range of people to serve. So presumably, it’s people who haven’t served much before that might be super exciting.
Dr G 1:05:33 Yeah, Look, I don’t want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Yeah, no, we shouldn’t I don’t think this is evidence of a system of payment.
Dr Rad 1:05:41 Oh, no, it isn’t. Like at the moment, they’re just like, Oh, my God just came out of nowhere. took me by surprise.
Dr G 1:05:49 You know what, I’m gonna volunteer. That’s what I’m gonna do.
Dr Rad 1:05:52 So you know what, actually, this is very much this. I don’t know if you remember this scene in Sliding Doors, and it’s popped up in a few other comedies since the idea that men only buy flowers spontaneously when they’ve done something wrong. I feel like that is what is going on here, Dr G. The patricians only gave us so when they’ve got any evil plan working in their back pocket. Bad luck. The citizens are very excited. Presumably, this is affecting a wider range of citizens and we’re normally talking about
Dr G 1:06:26 Yeah, and it does seem that on the flip side, the military campaigning that Rome has engaged in in this year with Anxur has gone well,
Dr Rad 1:06:37 Absolutely. Booty.
Dr G 1:06:41 Very good for the Romans.
Dr Rad 1:06:43 That’s what we care about at the moment, we can deal with we can be sympathetic, but once we’re scoring, it’s all Rome.
Dr G 1:06:48 That exactly, so I think it’s a pretty good time to be a Roman citizen.
Dr Rad 1:06:52 Yeah. Should we give it like a seven?
Dr G 1:06:55 Oooo Let’s.
Dr Rad 1:06:56 Oh my god. Dr. G., to you realize that that means that for the first time in a really long time, their variants have got just over 50% they’re on 27 Golden Eagles.
Dr G 1:07:12 Oh, well done, Ancient Rome. Yeah, all it took was a big military victory and paying your troops being nice to people who would have needed the basics, the basics, guys.
Dr Rad 1:07:28 All right, well, what a high day I can’t wait to talk about four or five with you. It’s gonna be another big year. I think. I’m excited.
Dr G 1:07:40 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you’re keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi, or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book ‘Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome’ at partialhistorians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode - The Roman Military with Dr Bret Devereaux
Feb 29, 2024
This is a very exciting special episode all about the Roman military. We were incredibly fortunate to speak to an expert in the field about the Roman army in the early and middle republic.
Special Episode – The Early Roman Military with Dr Bret Devereaux
Dr Bret Devereaux is a historian specialising in the ancient world and military history. He holds a PhD in ancient history from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and an MA in classical civilizations from Florida State University. He teaches at North Carolina State University.
His research interests include the Roman economy and the Roman military. Key to this is considering how the lives of people were shaped by structures of power, violence and wealth and the ways these factors shaped military capacity.
His monograph Why the Romans Always Won: Mobilizing Military Power in the Ancient Mediterranean is under contract with Oxford University Press. We cannot wait to get our hands on a copy, and we’re sure you will want to put this on your wish list too!
Dr Devereaux is an incredibly passionate and eloquent scholar, and he was very generous with his time. In this episode we were able to explore the evolution of Roman warfare from small-scale, localised conflicts to epic clashes with civilisations like the Carthaginians.
Dr Bret Devereaux
Things to Look Out For:
Lots of issues in our source material! How unusual for us
If you are keen to learn more about the academics mentioned during the interview, you can find a list of the scholars mentioned below:
Nathan Rosenstein
Imperatores Victi: Military Defeat and Aristocratic Competition in the Middle and Late Republic. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press. (1990)
Rome and the Mediterranean 290 to 146 BC : the Imperial Republic
Jeremy Armstrong
The Consulship of 367 BC and the Evolution of Roman Military Authority
Romans at war : soldiers, citizens and society in the Roman Republic
Early roman warfare : from the regal period to the first Punic War
Walter Schiedel
The Great Leveler: Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century (2017)
On Human Bondage: After Slavery and Social Death (2017)
The Cambridge Companion to the Roman Economy (2012)
Peter Connolly
Greece and Rome at War (1981)
Lawrence Keppie
The making of the Roman Army from Republic to Empire (1984)
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And
Dr G 0:30 I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:03 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G,
Dr Rad 1:11 and I’m Dr Rad
Dr G 1:13 and we are super thrilled to be joined by Dr. Brett Devereaux. Hello.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:19 Hello. Great to be here.
Dr G 1:21 Thank you so much for joining us. We are going to be talking today all about Roman military things, which I think is a super interesting topic and one that Dr. Rad and myself confess that we know not so much about so we wanted to bring in somebody who was a specialist. So Dr. Brett Devereaux is a historian who specialises in the ancient world and military history. He holds a PhD in ancient history from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and has an MA in classical civilization civilization from Florida State University, and He currently teaches at North Carolina State University. His research interests include the Roman economy and the Roman military. Key to this study is considering how the lives of people were shaped by structures of power. How violence and wealth are factors that influence and shape military capacity. He currently has a monograph under contract with Oxford University Press, which will be entitled Why the Romans Always Won: mobilising military power in the ancient Mediterranean. And he is also very famous online for running the popular blog, A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry: A Look at history and popular culture. So this is super exciting. Thank you.
Dr Bret Devereaux 2:43 So I’m excited. Thanks for having me on.
Dr G 2:46 I feel like our first point of controversy is going to be setting up the periods which might be under discussion. So I have said that we’re going to be talking about things possibly from the early republic, likely from the middle Republic, and we might touch on some things from the late Republic. And I feel like if you’re listening to this show, you might be like, Okay, that’s cool. The Republic has different phases. And you will be unsurprised to learn that historians don’t necessarily agree about these. And only some of the dates are on fuzzy. So the early republic, I’m going to say, start in 509 BCE, when they chuck out the kings, and takes us all the way down to around about 264 BCE, which is the start of the First Punic War. But I will defer to you, Brett, what would you say about that?
Dr Bret Devereaux 3:41 I mean, I think that’s a defensible end date. It’s the mark of when Roman military activity begins to push outside of Italy. And the First Punic War is the first moment where we get because our sources are improving over time, we get to see the Roman military machine very clearly. Because we have Polybius all of a sudden, and so I think that’s a defensible date. I would be tempted to push the transition to the middle Republic earlier, probably in the late fourth century, something like 338 340 Because I think the military system is functioning more or less the same way that far back but the evidence is is weaker, but but somewhere in that space. Yeah. And then the middle Republic runs question mark, question mark. 133? 107? 101? Somewhere in there. Before we begin the Late Republic.
Dr Rad 4:34 Somewhere with the Gracchi. And Marius.
Dr G 4:36 Yeah it gets a little bit dicey as soon as Tiberius Gracchus is elected tribune of the plebs. Yeah, so around about 133 anywhere down to about 101 is the bulk of the end of the middle Republic and the start of the late Republic. And then you get into the controversy of when does the late Republic end and that depends on how you feel about Augustus. So you know, I know I know you have some feelings about it. So do I. Strong feelings about Augustus, I’m going to say that I think the late Republic is fully over in 27. When he gets the title Augustus, it’s at that point where it’s like, he basically owns the whole of the Senate and anybody who’s willing to say anything. And at that point, I think we can say that functionally, the Republic is no longer doing its thing. It’s doing something else now.
Dr Bret Devereaux 5:32 But Augustus told me he restored the Republic, are you telling me he lied to me?
Dr G 5:38 This dude that would have guessed this lie? I mean, I wouldn’t want to say yes to that.
Dr Rad 5:44 Brett, I hate to break it to you on this podcast, but never leave believe anything a man says.
Dr Bret Devereaux 5:51 That’s, that’s gonna be my role in this podcast very difficult.
Dr G 5:55 This is gonna get tough as it goes along. Alright, so with that sort of chaos of periodization, somewhat resolved. Let’s jump into the first sort of topic. And we’re going to start broad and hopefully narrow in as we go through. Brett, what does it mean, to talk about military force when it comes to ancient Rome?
Dr Bret Devereaux 6:18 So this is an excitingly open ended question. Obviously, we are, for the most part, talking about armies. But already I think when I use that word, especially when we’re talking about the early Republican, especially when we’re talking about the first century of the early republic, as moderns we are incorporating ideas when we use that word army that we should maybe be sceptical about like we say army, we are imagining a formal military institution with things like regular issue weapons and uniforms and standardised trainings. And oh, boy, are the Romans not doing that this early. Some of these, you know, military forces that we’re going to talk about in the late regnal period in the early republic, are not state run armies, they are clan militias. You know, the whole extended family can go to war with your neighbours. We’re talking about states that are or that dispersed in power. We also are going to get centralised armies, as we’re going to see one of the major debates about the warfare in the early republic is really when can we understand that Rome actually has a centralised army under central leadership? I think at no point in this podcast, will the Romans get a uniform?
Dr G 7:38 This is very disappointing.
Dr Bret Devereaux 7:42 Roman soldiers are expected to acquire and supply their own equipment through the middle Republic and then there is argument as to when exactly in the late Republic, we start to see state issued equipment, you will sometimes see arguement that Gaius Gracchus does this but I would say that the textual support for that is functionally non existent. That is not what Plutarch says. And so no, he doesn’t. And so we don’t know, we know that by the Imperial period, there is state issued equipment, and it is being manufactured by the state, but we don’t know when that starts. So for most of this period, people are bringing their own kit, there are eventually regulations as to what kit they should bring, we’ll get into the arguments about when those regulations are made. Not as early as Livy thinks. So you might like okay, you have to have a shield and has to be kind of like this, but like the shields you bring is like whatever you want, you’ve decorated it how you want maybe you want it a little heavier, a little lighter, a little bigger, a little smaller, that’s fine. On these aren’t uniform like that. And then there’s a whole sort of secondary question of okay, what does that mean for how these guys fight? How tactically uniform are they? Certainly by the time we can see this army, clearly which, you know, I mean, I would say Polybius, I think you could push this back to the Punic Wars, the Romans have a tactical system. And it’s fairly sophisticated, how far back you can push that tricky, as we’ll get into, but also the kinds of military activity they’re engaged with. Our sources are for the most part writing in the first century, we’re talking about the early republic, because we have cut the early republic off 10 seconds before Polybius shows up, which is fair. And those first century sources have a nasty habit of reading the army of their own day into the evidence they have in the army of their day, is a sophisticated, well funded, well equipped, semi professional, centrally controlled force. It is, by ancient standards, a highly sophisticated and centralised army. And so, you know, Livy will read about battles happening in the four hundreds, and he conceives of these as like, Oh, we’re besieging this town for five years and he is thinking of a high intensity cedar, the centralised army and like that could be cattle rustling, that could be raiding. This could be little more than brigandage. The Army may not be this centralised. And it’s clear in some cases that it wasn’t, we’ll get this is going to be a repeated touchstone to the battle of the Cremera. In in 477 Sure major episode that I’m going to come back to over and over again, but like, what the famiIy were clearly doing here was like raids. They’re not he’s like, you know, they’re like laying waste and seizing the place. And like, there’s 300 of them. They’re not doing anything of the sort. There’s like stealing cattle, and like pillaging barns, you know. And so, it becomes really tricky to identify moments of increasing sophistication. Because Livy or, you know, Dionysius or Diodorus, or Cassius Dio, other universal history writers that are even later, like, they read, like the army went here, and they think the army of their day, and you know, so you know, it’s, it’s, there’s a huge range, and it’s, this is a continually changing institution, that we get snapshots up, and then those snapshots are distorted. With lots of blanks.
Dr Rad 11:08 Yeah, it’s very reassuring to hear an expert say that, because I must admit, we’ve been quite shocked to see how much our sources are reading backwards, when they’re talking about the army and the fabulous Fabii.
Dr Bret Devereaux 11:25 Notice how notice how unwilling Livy generally is to give army numbers in his early books, when Livy’s Gonna pop back up right when we Livy’s surge is back to us in 218. And we get that wonderful stretch from 218 to 167, where we have a continuous narrative from Livy’s. And his sources don’t suck, he loves army numbers, and they are precise. He’s like, there were this many men, and every year the legions were filled up and everything and he’s very, and he is nothing like that early on. And that’s a clear signal. He doesn’t have that information. He has no idea how big these armies are. I mean, ironically, the baby’s an exception, he thinks there are 300 of them. Though, that’s a number which should immediately make us sceptical because, of course, there are lots of famous bands of 300 warriors.
Dr Rad 12:15 gonna say that feels like a selective choice.
Dr Bret Devereaux 12:20 right, that’s a number that we should not believe. But it’s clearly been communicated to Livy. And so, yeah, the sources here are, are rough. Livy to his credit, is doing his best. Not fully credulous. He is occasionally sceptical. He occasionally indicates things he doesn’t know. He complains about invented triumphs and consulships. There are points where he is just clearly confused in ways that perhaps a savvy writer would have concealed. But on the other hand, you know, he’s mostly what we have. And, you know, we’re talking about the four hundreds in the three hundreds, the Romans only start writing their history themselves at the end of the third century Ennius and Fabius Pictor are a long way away. And so Livy doesn’t have a lot to work with. And that makes it really hard to know what’s going on.
Dr Rad 13:14 Yeah, it’s kind of like history is Mad Libs.
Dr Bret Devereaux 13:18 And then, and then the sources Livy’s does have, he doesn’t always understand. Or he has sources that don’t understand their sources. And the classic example for this is this battle. This is in book four of Livy. The the capture and then recapture of Fidenae in Latium. Ah, yes, the notes it’s it’s 434 that he’s like, and some analysts say that there was a fight cum classem, between fleets. And he’s like, but that’s ridiculous. There’s no water here. What we know from some of our other sources, what is confused living in his sources? Is that a classis in Livy’s de means a fleet, but in early Latin, it means an army. In particular, it means the whole citizen body is an army, when his sources are trying to tell him is that were once like the central army, the army that is controlled by the consoles or the king like the big army showed up and had a fight with the other guys big army, not just a cattle raid or something. We had a big fight, but live he doesn’t understand that and so he’s like, a battle with fleets like what on this stream? Are you joking? And so he is counted. He’s like, that obviously didn’t happen. This is a made up battle, because he’s misunderstood how the word classes is being used because its meaning has changed. There’s a similar sort of, we can get to the train wreck of Livy’s Eight Eight, and his description of the Roman army, but a similar problem with like, what is you know, what does it mean for someone to be before the spear antepilani? What are the Ordines? What are these units? What the hell are a accensi and what do they do? These were have changed their meanings, in some cases between Livy in his sources, and he is just terribly confused. And you feel bad for the fellow he’s doing his best.
Dr Rad 15:10 You know, and I feel empathy with Livy. Because I feel like that a lot of the time.
Dr Bret Devereaux 15:16 We’re doing our best.
Dr Rad 15:17 So Look, obviously, as as we’ve just hinted out in that conversation there, you know that we’re following the ancient written sources for the early republic, because that’s where we’re at in our episodes right now. So we’re mostly focusing on Livy’s, Dionysios, and Diodorus. And that sort of thing. And we can see that they, they did at least understand that Rome’s rise to world domination was gradual, and that they obviously have to do stuff, you know, to stop and explain some of these military things, as you were saying, without necessarily understanding them fully, or really appreciating how they worked in this early period. One of the things we keep coming up against is this idea of the levee, because this is often used as a weapon in the conflict of the orders, where we have tribunes of the players who are like there’s not going to be a military levy. I don’t care how severe the military situation is, and consuls who are like, Oh, you don’t understand there’s a crisis going on. We have to deal with it. Now. We didn’t have time for this crap. So how do we understand the levy of the soldiers in this very early period and the sixth in the fifth centuries BCE? Right.
Dr Bret Devereaux 16:24 So And here’s one of those are going to be like our sources say, and then I’m going to tell you that they’re full of it. So our sources and this is Dionysius and Livy’s, present the creation of a formal and centrally commanded system for the raising of Roman levy as originating with the semi legendary King Servius Tullius. This is the Servian constitution. I know you’ve discussed it, that would put it in the mid sixth century. We know the Serbian constitution, as described to us cannot date from the mid sixth century. The the most obvious issue is, are the wealth classes based on currency amounts. Now, the good news, this is one of these rare moments of good news, Dionysius, Livy, and Polybius all provide a wealth figure for the cut off for the first class of the infantry in the Roman army. And even better yet, though, they all give it in different currency units. They have given us the same figure, I think Dionysius is in minae, Polybius is in drachma and Livy’s in asses. And you’re like, Wow, a fixed piece of data reported by multiple sources, this must be good. Bad news. The currency conversion only works if Livy is giving it with the sextantal asses, which is the the the as, the bronze Roman currency goes through a long series of permutations. The first bit of bad news is that it straight up doesn’t exist in the fifth in the fifth or sixth century, the Romans developed currency late. But the really bad news is that the currency standard Livy’s Clearly using is the sextantal as, and what must be happening, of course, because the Romans did not lay out their wealth classifications in Greek currency figures, the real number must be an asses that Polybius and Dionysius have converted. But the sextantal asses introduced in 212
Dr G 18:15 are no, that’s nowhere near the sixth century. So this is Livy’s. What do you do unto us?
Dr Bret Devereaux 18:23 What are you doing? And so all three sources, their system, at least their numbers, must date to the Second Punic War. And I think for reasons we don’t need to get into here that Polybius is describing the army of the Second Punic War, which is the army of about 40 to 50 years before he’s writing. And Polybius is savvy enough to know that and tell us that, because he’s occasionally like, they used to do this, and now they do this. But obviously like, then that raises all sorts of questions for the entire system. Does it even make sense, for instance, for Servius Tullius, to lay down a wealth system based on monetary units at all? No, there’s no coinage in Italy at this point. Um, the Greeks have barely adopted coinage. It hasn’t made it this far. Ironically, glanced over at Athens in the same century, and you will see so long crafting wealth classes and not defining them by coinage but by bushels of wheat that your farm produces, which might make a lot more sense. But of course, that’s not what our sources tell us. So the Servian constitution is like, is this later and retrojected? it’s clearly something that the earliest Roman historians believe existed way back then. Are they anachronism, the wealth requirements? Is this later if it’s later, how much later? And so there’s sort of all of these, all of these problems. And here, I’m going to break and I’m going to make this distinction repeatedly. There is a sort of traditional interpretation, and then I’m going to note A specific scholar who has recently taken issue with this, which is Jeremy Armstrong, who is effort to push all of the dates I’m going to be kind of budget Jeremy Armstrong for you all, for most of today. The traditional reading is to Look at the Servian constitution and say, okay, the wealth classes are kind of nonsense. But the equipment described could actually be right for the sixth century, especially the implication that the wealthy who aren’t super rich and on horses, don Greek style equipment, and everybody else has local style equipment. Yeah, that’s what we see in artwork. That’s what we see in elite grave depositions. That makes a lot of sense. And so the traditional view is to say that what Livy and Dionysius have done is they have taken and probably not them, but their predecessors have taken a military system that did exist and embellished it into something more organised, but that there is some kind of central levy that the king is in charge of arguing against this right, Jeremy Armstrong pushes back at this and says, No, what you want to understand here is no centralised army. What there is, is a collection of elite gentes of these clans, and that if there is a centralised Roman army under the Kings, what’s happening here is that the king has gotten the heads of all of the gentes together, and those gentilic armies, which is like these elite patrician families and all of their clients. Those are the compositional units of the army. It is certainly the case that we have evidence in our sources, that Roman army sometimes work like that. I will note that Livy’s certainly doesn’t think the Royal Army works like that. He, for instance, thinks that the Brutus that founds the Republic is a tribune of the Celeres, he thinks that there is an office of cavalry commander, that it is an office that is like a military Tribune and has that title. Interesting because military tributes aren’t going to pop up in Livy’s narrative until much later and under weird circumstances. And what’s also striking is that this unit is called the Celeres, a term that I think it’s a term Dionysius also uses, and which is not the name of a later Roman unit. So Livy is probably not inventing this, there probably really were Celeres, the Swift ones. And that was the name for the cavalry before they were the equites. And so my own view and here I fall somewhere between the traditional view and the kind of Jeremy Armstrong revisionist view, because he’s convinced me on some points, is to imagine a kind of hybrid military under the kings, that there is sometimes this kind of centralised military and the king could appoint officers to it though, evidently, he always appoints them out of these elite patrician gentes who, of course, the leaders of which are the guys in the Senate, and the Senate advises the king. So you can see how these institutions locked together. But we definitely have what we might describe as gentilic warfare, a clan based warfare that is happening in the background that might not involve the king. And we should also keep in mind that the Kings authority here is not maybe as absolute as we think when we hear the word King. It’s worth noting that the semi legendary and legendary Roman kings we have don’t tend to come from the same family. This office isn’t hereditary, they seem to be picked by the aristocracy, they do seem to have the job for life. But that makes the transition from King to elected magistrate a lot less stark. We have gone from the aristocracy picks a war leader for life to the aristocracy picks a world leader for a one year limited term. In either case, he’s drawn from the aristocracy. And he has this set of powers. And in fact, he has this legal power called Imperium, which is the same power, unlike the Greeks who when they kick out there kings, abolish royal power and split up those jobs. The Romans are like you can’t do that. Imperium is indivisible. So theoretically, I think the levy is sort of kind of working this early, at least occasionally. There is the secondary question, how far down does the levy reach? And I think here, the answer cannot be very far. The Romans aren’t paying their soldiers. And we certainly don’t get the sense early on in Livy, that the resource in manpower steamroller of the middle Republic, is in any way in operation. So when we’re imagining this army, under the kings are the early republic, the centralised army, the non gentilin army, we’re probably still imagining a pretty aristocratic institution where the elites roll up with their fancy imported style Greek arms and armour. Their clients have shown up with local italic stuff, and that’s probably it. It is really striking for instance, levy imagines that the Roman census has been conducted continuously from The dawn of the Republic. But then he sheepishly admits this is Livy’s four eight that the censorship is created in 443. And he’s like over the consuls were doing it before then he doesn’t give a census figure before 465. And we know at least in the middle Republic, when our evidence gets better, the census was the vital tool for general conscription, that the Census provided the documents by which the Romans decided who was in the Army this year. So if the census isn’t happening for the first 40 or 50 years of the Republic, this army must be quite narrow indeed, because there’s no way to draw the full body of the citizenry into it.
Dr Rad 25:40 It sounds almost feudal in nature.
Dr G 25:42 Yeah, it does. I mean, it took it does resonate with the sorts of things that we’ve been drawing from what Livy and Dionysius and Diodorus have been suggesting, because it does seem like we’ve got a situation where it’s like it’s family based, that this sort of the conflict of the orders that keeps coming up and dominates the narrative of this early Republic is a bit of a mishmash of various things that we know are going to be happening later on. And this levy sort of allows them to introduce a conflict within the citizen body about the direction of Rome. So it kind of allows for a character development, if you like, like, what are Romans and how the Romans come to the Romans. And I think reading it through that kind of lens is really quite helpful. Now, you said that the they don’t get paid. And then we get this really interesting moment, both Diodorus Siculus and Livy’s mention that they get paid for the first time in 406 BCE. This is a spoiler for any listeners, Justin had to cover it. Because we have literally not recorded that episode yet. So I’m not gonna I’m not gonna say all of my thoughts on 406 BCE yet, but it might be influenced by what you tell us, Brett. This idea that the soldiers get paid, all of a sudden appears and when I came across it and the source materials like, oh, my god, somebody paid them. And I was like, What are the chances. But this is a massive year for the Romans. As far as our annalistic sources are concerned, they’re facing trouble on multiple fronts. This is an issue that Rome seems to be facing a lot during this period, where they’ve got conflict coming up from the south, from the Volscians, and the Aequians, to the more to the east, they’ve also got this pressure coming down from the Etruscans. And that seems to be hotting up again for them. And now all of a sudden, there’s this sense in which they need a large a reasonably large force in order to be able to be on all of those fronts at the same time. But we
Dr Bret Devereaux 27:47 don’t a couple of decades out from having serious Gallic problems.
Dr G 27:56 Just know, people aren’t ready to do that they haven’t watched the whole series.
Dr Bret Devereaux 28:01 Romans aren’t ready for it either. So we’re all on the same boat here.
Dr G 28:05 Definitely not. So I think it is reasonable to assume that 406 is maybe a bit of a furphy of a day. But I am interested about when and how we know that payment of soldiers develops for Rome.
Dr Bret Devereaux 28:21 I mean, so we are, are this substantially reliant on the reports of our sources, but we have this from Livy and Diodorus, and Plutarch. And I mean, like, Plutarch is like a quarter of a source when it comes to these kinds of things. And they all put it on the same date. And so there might be something to it, I think, sort of the traditional scholarship, because I’m gonna get to Jeremy Armstrong in a second. Because I do think that contrast is useful for listeners to hear and it’ll give them a sense of like the range of what we think the traditional scholarship sees 406 Sometimes scholars will get spooked and they’ll just say, circa 400. Ish, but our sources are really clear that it’s 406 that see this as a key moment of development in a process that has probably be gone way back in the 470s. And is going to culminate again, massive spoilers after the Gallic sack of Rome, probably. And, and so if we sort of wind back, right, we want to ask, Okay, where did the gentilic armies go? Because obviously, you don’t need to pay your soldiers if they’re all your family members and clients, right? There’s a relationships are governing this. The traditional answer to this is to point at the Battle of the Cremera and 477, which I know you’ve discussed Livy’s to dot 49 and following where we get like the one point where Livy’s Like, here is some gentilic warfare that is happening. The Fabii go out, start their own war and then lose it catastrophically. And then just to, you know, add on, like the Roman state then intervenes and also does poorly for a number of years. So things are not going well, the traditional view has been to see this sort of catastrophic defeat. And the fact that our sources never mentioned against doing warfare like this ever, again, is to say, this is the moment gentilic warfare stops. And to see this in the context where Look, states and communities in Italy are getting more sophisticated over time. Italy is a rough neighbourhood, the warfare here is is getting increasingly no holds barred. You can sort of see that with the rough way that the nascent Roman Republic treats its flattened neighbours to the south and like we’re going to inflict a pretty unequal treaty on you. Obviously, they’re going to resettle that treaty in the 3340s and 330s, which we’ll get to because that’s going to change the military system, and so to see is like the Fabii go out thinking that it’s still like the 560s. And a single gens can do this kind of warfare, and are rudely informed by Veii that no, you can’t stay. It’s become too centralised, and they get steamrolled by a major state army of Etruscans. And the Romans are like, let’s not do that ever again. Now, what Jeremy Armstrong will point out is that that neat divide is too neat. The Fabii start their war in 479, when it is worth noting that the head of their Gens Caeso Fabius is the consul or praeter, maybe later. So this may have in fact been a Roman war. This Fabian clan army may have been a consular army people can’t see but I’m making sneer quotes to begin with. And so this is sort of this is sort of tricky, and Armstrong uses this in some other evidence to argue that gentilic, warfare may actually be continuing later than this and Livy may just not know it. That said, as noted, shortly thereafter, we start to get census figures from Livy. Notably, compared to our other sources that give us earlier census figures Livy’s census figures do not round off tonight’s neat numbers, his figure for 465 is 104,714. The other convenient thing, you if you Look at the demographic math, you think about the size of the Roman state, that number is possible. That could be a real number. some level of undercounting, surely, presumably the very poor not being counted, it’s definitely only counting men, all those issues. But civium capita tote right which is the formula Livy’s always gives the census figures with that could be the real number. So Livy may not be kidding that the Census is started up at this point, that would suggest a greater desire to expand the army. And we’re of course, seeing that Rome is under a lot of military pressure in this period. And as that pressure intensifies, the Romans reach for manpower, you need to get more guys. And as you know, 406 is a gnarly year, the security situation in Italy is getting rough. And it’s only about to get rougher. And so the Romans may have felt like we need to make this move. And so again, the traditional scholarship sees this as the break point where the army is now beginning to incorporate the plebeians generally, is of course gonna matter for the struggle of the orders, but even poor plebeians, and that certainly fits with when we see the army of the middle Republic. One of the things that is very striking about it is that Roman recruitment clearly reaches very far down the socio economic ladder, while you still have to have some property to qualify for the Roman army. It’s not a lot in the middle Republic, you know, probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 85 90% of the citizen male body are wealthy enough to be eligible for the army, right, the capite censi those who are too poor to serve seems to be a very small slice of the Roman citizen body. And he Nathan Rosenstein sort of tackle this question, and I think proved it. And so the introduction of pay is kind of a necessary step along this road. Now, of course, immediately Livy’s says they introduce pay the stipendium Militarum. And then he doesn’t give us any details. We know how legionary pay works in the Second Punic War, because Polybius tells us but we’re immediately questions can we retro eject them? In the Second Punic War, we know that Roman soldiers get paid a daily wage, but that the cost of their food and supplies is subtracted from it, if they are missing any equipment or lose any of it that is also docked from their pay. And we can certainly assume the clear implication of the system is described is that most of this pay is is booked pay. It’s being kept in the coop quaestor’s logs, they’re not getting handed money very often. Sometimes. Clearly. When Rome sends armies they feel the need to send coinage with them at that late date. They certainly can’t be doing it in 406 because they don’t have any coinage yet. So once again, how are they paying these eyes, it could be interesting grain. What Livy’s may understand is military pay may just be the state now feeds you.
It could be something that simple, and therefore the poor can come along. Because they don’t need to bring an allowance in may be something that simple. Conveniently for us, like the reason we can be sure that Polybius isn’t blowing smoke about the Roman pay system is that the Roman pay system continues to work exactly that way into the imperial period, when the Romans politely send soldiers to Egypt, where their pay stubs written on papyrus can survive. And so we can read them and we can be like, Oh, that’s how they did the accounting, which is really, which is really fun. And you see the same deductions, deductions for food deductions for clothes. This guy wore out his sandals like minus 15 denarii there, that kind of thing. But is it working that way? In 406? Is it that sophisticated God, I’d be shocked if it was. I mean, it would be startling because again, this is not yet really a coinage society. This early Jeremy Armstrong would I think except most of what I just said, but he would kind of push the dating of the implications further back and he would want to see like the incorporation of poor plebeians eeehhhhhh. Let’s Let’s date that a little later. He sees the formation of a kind of centralised Roman Army as a process as he puts it that runs the incorporation of the plebs that runs from 450, all the way out to 390. And a little bit further. Whereas I think traditional scholarship is like 406, like, dot dot done. And I’m pretty sympathetic with Jeremy’s arguments here, that this is perhaps a longer process, but it’s still an important breakpoint. And it’s setting the groundwork for what is what is to come. I would also know here, there are a bunch of other really interesting things that are happening in the late fifth and early fourth century when it comes to warfare in Italy. And here, I will note an extraordinary frustration created by the Romans. It is the case that we’re ever the Romans expand, starting in the three hundreds at least. So as they begin to pull Italy under their control, wherever they go. Warrior burials and elite warrior artwork stop. This is extraordinarily obnoxious, like you get the third Samnite war, Samnium is finally Roman territory and like boom, the Samnites are not burying aristocrats with their armour anymore. And so Rome is this creeping gap in our evidence. Nevertheless, from what evidence survives, we can see that the early three hundreds are evidently a period of pretty radical, tactical and equipment change, whereas elite equipment prior to this, the wealthiest guys are mostly using Greek style stuff, which is both the big Greek shield the Aspis, Greek style body armour, both Greek style helmets and then also like local interesting variations of Greek style helmet, he had some really wacky looking like apulo Corinthian helmets, some of which I doubt that anyone ever actually wore. I mean, some of them really do Look like display pieces rather than real armour. Always something to be worried about. Armies create parade equipment in all periods. Folks who know the Roman army somewhat later may be familiar with Imperial period cavalry masks where you get these helmets that has like a full face mask on no one wore that to fight that was that was for parade that was not a battlefield piece of equipment that was that was you know,
Dr G 38:36 you don’t you don’t want to you don’t want to see things when you’re on the battle field. No. Madness
Dr Rad 38:42 It would help me go into battle if I couldn’t see what was laying ahead. That’s true.
Dr Bret Devereaux 38:47 But so we have that sort of system. And what we see in the three hundreds is the clear in blocks of a lot of external we might say military material culture, the the round Greek style aspis drops away. Livy explicitly says that this happens with the introduction of military pay, it is replaced by the cheap guys shields, which are these larger rectangular shields. We know from artwork that rectangular central boss shields like this existed in Italy earlier, but it’s also pretty clear from the structure of the Roman shield once we can see clearly later that the Romans have borrowed design elements from the Latin shield the Gallic or Celtic shield from the north. So this is a sort of a fusion of an Italian shield shape, with design elements that are Gallic to create a kind of distinctly Italian riff on the Latin oval shield. At the same time we get Greek sword forms, the corpus and the syphilis begin to vanish, replaced by our evidence is really thin, but it seems like Gallic Sword forms. We have one really neat sword from this period that God bless it is inscribed. And it Smith has said, I made this in Rome. Nice, beautiful Look after that.
Dr G 40:17 offer a better piece of evidence really.
Dr Bret Devereaux 40:19 I know it’s beautiful. And then someone deposited it in a sanctuary so that we can have it. What’s striking is its form. If the inscription wasn’t on it, we would have said this is an early Latin sword. A Latin one sword and so we’re like, okay, so the Romans have picked up a Gallic style shield. They’re picking up a Gallic style sword. This is not yet the Gladius to be clear, or let me rephrase. This is not yet the Gladius Hispaniensis it’s not the famous Gladius Gladius itself is not a native Latin word that looks to be a Celtic word. The Romans have imported a word to describe the sorts they’re picking up. Latin has its own perfectly serviceable word for sword Ensis which becomes poetic and very archaic, and no one uses it. In addition, at the same time, we see some of these fancier Greek style helmets beginning to get pushed out by the montefortino helmet type, which is also an Italian take on a Gallic helmet, and by the First Punic War, montefortino was replastered. This is just what the Romans were all of them everywhere. You can tell when the Romans have shown up because suddenly you have a tonne of montefortinos in the archaeological record and every other helmets vanishes.
Dr G 41:35 Look, it sounds like they learnt a lot from whatever happened when they lost to the Gallic when they
Dr Bret Devereaux 41:41 deed, and so, so you have a number of things that are happening. I should note also the pilum, the Roman heavy javelins seems to be adopted in this period too. And I think Jeremy Armstrong is right to say probably also from the Gauls. The Romans think it’s from the Samnites. And Jeremy thinks they’re wrong. And I think he’s right, that they’re wrong. It’s probably from the Gauls. And so you have military pay is introduced in 406. The Romans lose badly to the Gauls in 390. By 338, Livy’s Describing a military system that has begun to Look like the one we’ll see later, although again, Livy’s terribly confused. And it is predicated on a lot of Gallic kit. And it does now seem fully centralised state run based on a mass conscript, levy. So this seems to be the critical period where the sort of Polybian Roman army that we know and love is coming into being. Now, the great news is, hey, we finally know what’s going on. The bad news is, suddenly, we have to question any retro rejection of any of these things earlier than this point. Because they’re like, Wait, there’s clearly from like, for tannish to like, 380 ish, a period of significant change, not just in, in how they’re paid in who serves in how they’re organised and how they fight in the stuff they use to fight. So what can we know before that? And Jeremy argues that actually, the Servian constitution probably dates to this period. He is a break from older scholarship in this regard. But you can see why that argument would be seductive, but it would render us even more blind to what’s happening in the earlier four hundreds.
Dr G 43:28 Now, now, we’re missing a whole 100 years where we don’t know anything.
Dr Rad 43:33 And not saying anything is actually
Dr Bret Devereaux 43:37 right. No exact exactly what I’m seeing is Roman history starts in 264. And I mean, really, like you guys are a myths podcast.
Dr G 43:43 New tagline, mythology brought to you by
Dr Rad 43:51 Let’s end the interview now.
Dr Bret Devereaux 43:54 I know right now, I’m never getting invited back.
Dr Rad 43:58 The next question I’m about to ask you seems like a really stupid question, given what you’ve just said. I mean, obviously, when people are writing about these sorts of periods, they have to come up with some numbers sometimes to get an idea of, you know, the scale of the battles and all of that kind of stuff. And given everything you’ve just said, that seems nigh on impossible. But can you give us any idea about the size of the army? Like how big do you think it would have been in the early republic? How big is it in, you know, where we get to the more of the reliable periods like later on in the middle Republic? And even maybe, how on earth do you get to this? This is just so terrible,
Dr Bret Devereaux 44:40 right? And so for the early republic, like any answer has to lead with, we don’t know. You know, as noted, we only get census figures that I think are remotely reliable in 465. And even then, I think a lot of scholars would not trust anything before the 300 census wise, but with it, you know, if the Romans do enforce 65 have a citizen body of like 100,000 adult males, well, not all of those are going to be some of those are going to be old people. So, you know, that’s a pretty limited manpower pool, you’re not calling all those guys out all at once. Or if you are, then you can’t keep them out. Because they somebody needs to form. And so I mean, that implies a Roman army that is radically smaller, I would be shocked if the Roman army of the four hundreds could feel more than five or 10,000 men at a time. It is really striking that when our sources start talking about the Legion, it sure seems like there must have been a point where there was just one legion and the etymology of the Legion, literally the people picked out sure sounds like there’s just one of them. And then later, they have multiples. And the Legion standard size later is around 5000. And the Romans stick to that standard size throughout their whole history. And so one wonders if like the early Republican Army was a legion. Like, here’s like, 5000. Guys, this is about what we have. Now, of course, that suggests something a lot more regular than than we should probably imagine. But maybe that kind of scale. But the broader answer is we don’t know. And so much of this military activity must have been much smaller scale cattle rating and and pillage. It
Dr Rad 46:17 does sound like that. There’s a lot of mention of they raided us we raided them, they stole some cows.
Dr Bret Devereaux 46:23 Right? Well, and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of battles where it’s like there was a battle, and the Romans were utterly cut to pieces. And then next year, it’s like nothing happened. Yeah, like, well, that couldn’t have been that big.
Dr Rad 46:34 Yeah, that’s what we find. We find these dramatic statements like the Volscians were wiped from the face of the earth. And then it’s like, and the next year, the Volscians are fielding an army. Right?
Dr Bret Devereaux 46:44 And you’re wondering if what your sources are looking at is like, there was a fight between maybe a few 100 Volscians and few 100 Romans and the Romans utterly crushed those guys. But that this is just one episode in a larger conflict. And then Livy comes to this description. And all Livy has is some sources, we met the Volscians. And we killed all of them. Yeah. And so Livy is imagining huge army, he’s imagining like second Punic War 80,000 Man armies wiping each other out. And it has not occurred to him that like that cannot be the case. As we move into the three hundreds, the Roman citizen body is getting bigger, in part because Roman territory is expanding. And as noted, we’re imagining they’re reaching a lot further down into into the sort of manpower pool. We might by this point beginning to something like the system we’re eventually going to have where each console normally raises two legions. I mean, conveniently 367 is when we’re finally gonna get to the point where we get to consoles every year with any regularity mean like God only knows how the army when you had military tribunes with consular powers how that was even structured, like we don’t know live, he doesn’t know. Chaos, I say, yeah. But, but you might have something like that if each consul has two legions that would imply maybe about 20,000 troops. The Romans in the early three hundreds, the Roman alliance system doesn’t really exist yet. So the enormous resource advantages that it provides it probably not kicked in. The Romans sort of have control over relation. But the Latins are still at this early point understood as like quasi independent allies, they fight under their own armies and have their own leaders, that’s going to change in the 340s and the 330s. The Romans gonna have another Latin war, we’re not told. But the general assumption is that this is the point where the Romans shift and I believe he actually does kind of say this, that this is the point where the Romans choose to shift from their old system of alliances, which federal leagues and alliances like this were very common in Italy, to the souci system that we’re gonna see them conquer the world with where all of the allies only have a bilateral treaty with Rome. They are required to supply soldiers to Rome’s armies, those soldiers serve in small units under their own officers, but those are just attached straight to the Legion. And the number of Allied troops is roughly equal to the number of Roman troops in Scenario Okay, so if both consoles are out, it’s not 20,000 men. It’s like 40,000, man. And now you’re starting to get like the beefier Roman armies as we move into the two hundreds and uses sort of armies and then sometimes the Romans double up these armies, so maybe you put both consoles in one place, you know, before you 1000 man field army. Right, that’s quite sizable by ancient standards. That’s about as large as Alexander the Great’s army invading Persia, that sizable, and that might be the kind of thing that the Romans are throwing around in, say, the second and third Samnite wars as we get into the Punic Wars. And then of course, when we get into the Punic Wars, we watched the Romans deploy absolutely still aggroing mobilizations estimates I think the peak mobilisation for the Romans in 214. I think it is, is 185,000 men under arms in a single year. Wow. Which is and what I would just stress is, you do not want to imagine that the early republic can do something like the Romans can do something like that because they’ve constructed a system to draw the resources of all of Italy together. For more about this, see my book project in a year or two. Because this is what I’m, this is what I work on. You can hear me get excited. But that system is coming into being in the three hundreds, and we probably want to imagine it as an even longer process of state centralization pulling the plebeians into the army, probably Rich will be in first, poor plebeians later, through the four hundreds into the early three hundreds are motivated by increasing security pressures. And we’re certainly seeing in Italy increasing security pressures, the Etruscans are cooperating more, they will eventually make one big alliance to try to contain the Romans in the third Samnite war. The Samnites are forming tribal confederacies that seem to work together, even the Greek states and my god to get Greeks to cooperate. But even the Greek states seem to be occasionally working together. And then you have the Gallic threat, which obviously, post 400 is clearly intense, occasionally large armies of golds from Northern Italy rolling and wreck everyone’s afternoon. And that’s going to remain a threat, right? The Romans are going to subdue Cisalpine Gaul in the 220s. And then Hannibal is going to roll over the Alps in 2 8. And unsubdue Cisalpine Gaul, and then the Romans are going to spend the next two decades re subduing Cialpine Gaul before the sort of Gallic threat kind of finally recedes, although it’s going to explode back into focus at the end of the first century with the Cimbians, the Teutones. So those those tricksy goals are never gone. They’re just they’re just over the Alps, with their dastardly oval shields and long, long swords waiting. Your day. Just
Dr Rad 52:11 makes me long for written material from them so badly.
Dr Bret Devereaux 52:14 God, you have no idea how much I wish we knew more about their about their society. I mean, the fact that their societies only described from the outside our most sustained description is from Julius Caesar while he’s genocide. And you’re like, yeah, that’s, that’s not great. Okay. Yeah, similar frustrations about how little we know about what’s happening in pre Roman Spain. But that’s sort of neither here nor there. For this, I come back for the Punic Wars. And then we talk about paying for,
Dr G 52:45 I think, what you’ve set up with thinking about, like, you know, there’s this kind of influx over time of Roman expansion, the way that Rome brings other peoples underneath it sort of ages, and then start to draw upon those resources for its own ends. This is something that is increasing in pressure over time. And I think you’ve touched on this already. But I’m interested in some of the sort of details, the size and composition of the Legion in the early and middle republics, if we can even talk about it in early, you’re saying about 5000 is probably where it sits. And he was like,
Dr Bret Devereaux 53:25 wild guesstimate there. Mm, right. Right. I mean, it’s based on almost nothing.
Dr Rad 53:31 Welcome to our podcast.
Dr G 53:34 Welcome to history, where it’s like, we’ve just got gaps, and we’re trying to figure out what to do with them. And but the Roman legion becomes hugely famous, for many reasons, particularly because of its success, I would say,
Dr Bret Devereaux 53:48 I was gonna say it does a lot of winning, it does a lot of winning. And
Dr G 53:51 people really hold on to that. And I, it turns into this whole sort of modern masculinity element as well, where people see that kind of like victory element, and they accrue that to themselves, which I think is really fascinating. But maybe a bit odd as well.
Dr Bret Devereaux 54:05 Often they accrue it to themselves in ways that would be utterly alien to the Romans. It’s very, it’s very striking. There
Dr G 54:15 are there are many byways that this conversation could go there right now, and I’m gonna resist those. But is there anything that we can say about the internal organisation of a legion? And when might we be able to say that at its earliest point, do you think?
Dr Bret Devereaux 54:30 Yeah, so looking back to the Servian constitution, although remember question marks about when that suggests a kind of army in in what we might say, it’s like three tactical components. You have really rich guys on horses and there aren’t very many of them. You have the regular elite on foot equipped as hoplites older historians assumed that they also fought like Late Archaic Greek hoplites that has come under a lot of question now. The kid does not require the fighting style, so this may not be a failing Thanks. And and Lord knows, like arguing about what a phalanx even is this early as a tar pit. And so we can just not go there.
Dr G 55:08 I was gonna say let’s, let’s resist that too,
Dr Bret Devereaux 55:11 which is certainly an equipment that implies that this is what we would call a shock formation these guys expect to march into Spears reach and stab you up close and personal. By contrast the lighter infantry of the poor guys, they certainly seem to pick up javelins really quickly. That fits with what we see in artwork and archaeology across Italy. We see lots of of infantry with javelins, so you’ll have a shield and a sword and maybe a spear and then one or two javelins also. And so you could imagine these guys, you could put them in close combat, and they have that big shield for a reason. But probably they’re also peppering each other with javelins. And so that’s a lighter infantry component. And if we understand the army of say the four hundreds as they think we should, as a predominantly aristocratic element, then we should probably imagine that the guys with the Greek style stuff are the centrepiece and that the poor soldiers are a screening and supporting element, though again, how much this is guesswork? Certainly, we get no indication and livie that cavalry is ever central to the Roman way of warfare. So the really rich guys on horses never accomplish a whole lot unless they devote themselves and die gloriously so that the infantry can win.
Dr Rad 56:29 And they get to charge Yeah, and you know, unexpectedly
Dr G 56:31 makes Lucius Tarquinius’ rise to power through his leadership of the cavalry somewhat questionable now,
Dr Bret Devereaux 56:38 well, but of course, the cavalry are the wealthiest in the most elite are the social upper crust. But tactically are they the most important guys? Of course, in the regnal period? Who the hell knows? Maybe But, but by the four hundreds? No, I mean, warfare in Italy really does seem to be an infantry first military system. Similar to what we see in Greece, were also the very rich in Greece right into battle sometimes, but like, nobody expects the cavalry to win battles, unless your Thessalians. As we sort of move forward, the as I noted, the first moment where we get an organisational description of the Roman army is Livy’s, eight, eight, which he places in 338, though he’s not saying that this organisation is created in that moment, he’s just like, This is what the Army looks like in 338. So it may have looked like that for a while. The equipment that makes that army function the way it does, has been around for several decades by this point. Livy thinks the shield has been around since 406. So maybe it’s been this way for a while. The traditional Yes, is that the military reform happens in the immediate aftermath of 391 tells us this, so it is a guess, put no weight on that leg. It’s plausible, though. The army that Livy describes in 338 clearly does not derive from the Servian Constitution. It is a heavy infantry based force. There are three key lines in heavy infantry, they are hastatii, principes, and triarii. And we’re like, ah, we know those from Polybius. The hastatii may have already lost their spears, but they clearly must have had them because they’re hastitii and the hastis is a spear. The hastis is a spear. So they’re they’re naming spearmen. And yet, the moment they’re visible to us, historically, they no longer have spears, which tells you they once did. And then there are other kinds of troops in this picture that confuse Livy’s There are rorarii, he doesn’t know what they are, and neither do we. And then there are the accensi. Livy’s imagines the accensi, as like he’s trying to fit them into like the battlefield deployment of the Army, that would probably mean something like attendance. And we generally assess that these guys are non combat. It’s your butler, you brought your butler to the battlefield, this guy carries your stuff, or they’re the cook or the carpenter or what have you. And we know, the later comitia centuriata, gives the accensi their own century, grouped with the musicians and the artisans, as groups that don’t serve as combat soldiers in the army, but do get their own century. So they’re not all slammed into the century, the very poor, suggesting that these maybe are like professional, non combat support personnel, something like this attendance.
Dr G 59:27 I love this though. You’re on the battlefield, you’ve just hit somebody with a sword. You’re like, I need a drink. Somebody
Dr Bret Devereaux 59:32 named me my friend, you’re probably so I must say you’re probably not doing that the cancer you’re probably hanging back at the camp when you’re actually fighting the battle. And in some of these battle narratives, and of course, I don’t have the citation to hand for this. When the camp comes under attack, it seems like then the Kensi may fight and defend the camp. So they’re not frontline guys, but maybe they’re like logistics troops. Yeah, they know how to hold Livy’s Battle narratives also attack us two guys that he describes as low as militates, light troops. And if those of you who know the later Roman army are like, Why aren’t you just calling these guys will lead hates? That’s what Polybius calls them, because the elites don’t exist until 212. When Livi actually stops to tell us that this body of troops called will the tasers come into existence. The general kind of consensus of the scholarship is to imagine that the rivalry II probably are the lowest militates the light troops, probably drawn from the lowest classes in Rome that still have enough property to fight and that they probably have a similar role to the willie tastes. And then the question becomes, what exactly is the reorganisation that leads to the name change? And the answer is we don’t know. irritatingly Livy does not tell us how the rorarii are equipped, which would answer a lot of questions. But he doesn’t give it to us.
Dr G 1:00:55 But no wonder he’s confused and he doesn’t know what they’re holding. So he can’t come up with a way
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:01:01 to do it. didn’t exist by the time his sources did. So he’s like, these guys are there.
Dr Rad 1:01:09 I imagine it’s their job to go RARRRR.
Dr G 1:01:15 That whole job? Yeah, to be scary. Luckily.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:01:18 There’s been some arguments about the etymology of rorarii and maybe like what this word means and that, that maybe it’s it’s a word that kind of indicates like, essentially, like something little more than a mob, just like you’ve grabbed some peasants with their pitchforks and you’re going at it.
Dr Rad 1:01:34 I think I just settled that debate.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:01:36 The guys that go RARRR right. And now I just want to note because I realised I haven’t given this caveat. But I’ve spent the last five minutes talking about Livy’s, eight, eight, the amount of confidence we can put on the Livy eight eight is not great, generally speaking, so. So there are layers of problems here. I’ve already indicated Livy doesn’t understand his sources. You know, he has Polybius. He clearly has some other sources. He seems like he might be trying to harmonise sources that do not harmonise, because he’s got maniples and ordines, antepilani, and he does not know how these units fit together. And it may be because they don’t. The other problem with Livy’s eight eight, because you know why not? Is that the text is also clearly corrupted points. This is a case where there are clear scribal errors in the text that we have, which just adds so Livi is confused. And then we don’t even really have a perfect sense of what Livy’s wrote. As a results. Most scholars will put Livy’s eight eight and say apart from like really general information. Even this form of the Roman army is beyond salvage. Roman military history really begins with Polybius and Polybius dates his army to 216. And obviously by then we’re we’re really late. I think the last person I can think of who made the sort of sportsman like effort to salvage Livy, as Peter Connolly tried back in the 1980s. Lawrence Keppie, by contrast, looks at Livy’s eight eight and is like no, cannot be done. And most scholars have have sort of discretion is the better part of valour. No we can’t know very much about about this source. But there are a few things we can say the three lines of Roman heavy infantry exist, that speaks to a different tactical system. If you’ve got your Servian constitution then you probably have one body of heavy contact infantry and Greek style equipment in one line. That’s you know, probably like six 8, 12 Men deep something like that. By contrast, by Livy’s eight eight we have a Roman army in a triplex acies in the three Roman battle lines that we see layer later. That presumably means that the manoeuvre method of changing out one battle line for the next exists, which is attested in our later sources, that probably means that the Romans are fighting in smaller units with intervals between them, because that’s how they do that interchange later. So the implication is that the Romans have, by the late three hundreds discovered the tactical system, that they will then ruin everybody else’s day with and interestingly living notes. The Latins opposite the Romans for the battle is about to happen. He says fight exactly the same way with exactly the same kit. Lord knows this will be true later, the Roman allies the souci fight exactly the way the Romans do, they are tactically indistinguishable. And so this process of convergence of homogenization seems to be well underway at this point. And the archaeological evidence seems to back that up that the sort of what becomes whatever becomes the standard Roman equipment pushes out all other forms, and those forms vanish. And so that that seems to be seems to be happening there, but more broadly for organisation, I mean, it’s hard to say the organisational element Of the Livy eight eight is the part that is the worst of a mess. I mean his math doesn’t work he’s like there’s this many guys in this many guys and this many guys and that leads to this many guys hold on like Livy, I added your numbers together, and they don’t give me that number.
Dr G 1:05:18 Dammit, the math doesn’t work.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:05:20 And the question is, has Livy’s made a math error possible? Or has a scribe made a math error because we know the text is damaged. And so you know, Lord only knows. Presumably this army is commanded by consuls. Now, if you if you read Livy’s somewhat on a surface level, which I know we don’t do here, you’re gonna be like, Oh, the moment the Republic is formed, we have two consoles in the very first year. This is great. If you read a little bit more closely Livy’s admits and our other sources note that the earliest Roman officials were not consuls but prateors. But then Livy turns around and says the praetorship is established in 367.
Dr G 1:05:58 So it does create some confusion, I will have
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:06:01 some confusion. And of course, you’ve also been working through already the problem that the Romans start deciding to also have years where they don’t have consoles, but they have a variable number of military tribunes with consular powers. The name is almost wholly obscure. Yeah, and then dictators as well. And dictators, yes, we have dictators flying, you know, working around to. Um, so the Romans have like at least three different speeds for Chief Magistrate that they seem to pick almost at random on a year to year basis. What we know about the military tribunes is that after 367, they stopped getting consular powers. Interestingly, the standard number of them the most common number seems to be six. When we get to Polybius, we are told every Legion has six military Tribune’s assigned to it. And so that’s suggestive like is this, the Republic has one legion in this early point, and it is either led by a consul, or if we don’t have a consul, then his power devolves onto the six military tribunes he would have had otherwise. That’s how it works later. Is that how it works earlier? In any case, you later on these military tribunes, they do come in sixes though, of course, six is not a consistent number in the Livy and you have years and years with three and years with nine and like, it’s usually six. And this is another case where we’re confused Livy’s confused the consular fausti is confused, right? The Fasti Capitolini, which proudly lists consuls in those first years when we know they must be praetors. Yeah. And so like it’s one of these cases where like, we know our sources are wrong and and undermines what we can tell. And
Dr Rad 1:07:47 then the military tribunes with consular power, so often represented as being selected as an option because of internal politics. They’re very rarely connected to the military stuff and your like.
You said, not some connection, perhaps some to some of the time. What
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:08:08 you wonder is a situation or these guys, just Tribunes, that is, tribal officers. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And after 367 When Rome is off, Roman officer will then becomes regularised. These tribal officers pick up that military nature. And there’s also a need to distinguish them from the other tribal officers that from the interviews. Yeah. And so you start calling the military tribunes? Are they even called that this early? Or are they tribal officers? Because remember, we also had a tribal officer for the celers in the last days of the kingdom. So you can have a lot of different kinds of tribunes? And the and the answer here again, is we don’t know. The The other question I always want to throw out here because we mentioned dictators, that I just want to say the other problem out is living in our sources understand the dictatorship. And thing to understand is, the Romans have the dictatorship from between 501 and 202. The Romans have, I think, 85 dictatorships, involving about 70 individuals some excitement and trying to figure out when they’re the same guy or when they’re not. After two between 201 and 84, the Romans appoint zero dictators, the office ceases to exist. Sulla then reinvents the dictatorship and it is a completely different bag. It is clear that it functions radically differently. Sulla has way more powers he has the ability to legislate by fiat which dictators don’t seem to have earlier on. He can’t be countermanded by attribute which dictators do seem even people in the first century seem to have been aware that dictators should be the tillable by attribute but Sulla is not. And so and the appointment process is completely wrong too. So Sulla recreates the dictatorship as a much more absolute, much more powerful office. And that’s the dictatorship that Livy knows. Because of course, Caesar uses it again then subsequently, but it is almost unrecognisable from what we see earlier on. And so every time you see a dictator, you also have to ask, is this position anywhere near as powerful as Livy thinks it is. Because the image of the dictator he has in his head, or these late Republican figures where it’s a very different institution, separated by more than a century, from what I term, the customary dictatorship, as I like there’s, there’s a mos maiorum dictatorship, the customary dictatorship, and then there’s the Civil War, dictatorship, the sort of late Republican dictatorship, and we should think about these as separate institutions, but the Romans definitely don’t. And so you have to ask, how much anachronism Are you getting out of that, too,
Dr Rad 1:11:01 I kind of love the early dictatorships and Livy, because he’ll describe, you know, the amazing things that they managed to accomplish, and then he’ll be like, and seven days after being appointed dictator he laid down his house, you’re like, that was seven days.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:11:15 Right? Well, remember, it’s a much smaller community. I know. And as it’s funny, is much more tightly entwined, it seems around around the elites around a handful of elite families. So yeah, I mean, like, when there are like 30 families that matter in this society, and you’re one of them, and you’re given the other 29 gives you absolute power, and everybody can meet on a soccer pitch. Yeah, you can get everything done really quickly. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:11:41 Bob, it’s you for the next few weeks, and then you’re done.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:11:45 And the military crisis that you have to resolve is maybe that there are like 600 Guys from that town over there that had been stealing cattle. And so you roll out and you beat them up? And then you’re like, and Look what I’ve done, you know, right, levy again, levy imagines this as major wars, but they aren’t necessarily major wars.
Dr Rad 1:12:05 I don’t know if you’ll get this reference. And I apologise because I’m not sure how familiar American audiences are with Blackadder. Uh, but whenever I talk, okay, good, excellent. Whenever we talk about some of these conflicts, I always imagine that scene in Blackadder are where they have the chunk of turf in the office, and they’re like, this is how much territory we won today. What’s the scale? 1:1
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:12:26 Yes. No, I mean, and and, I mean, it has to be because Rome is fighting these wars and winning them and losing them and what have you. But the radical Roman expansion doesn’t happen until the three hundreds, right? Yeah, Rome, in 406 is not much stronger, wider, more controlling than Rome was in 509. And so like, these conflicts cannot have been very decisive, or there would be no one left.
Dr G 1:12:58 Yeah, this is one of those things where it’s like, there’s there’s must be this bootie exchange going on, where it’s like you do some writing, you pick up the stuff that you lost last year? And you’re like, Yeah, we got our stuff back. And then they come and raid you. And they steal stuff. Again, you’re like, Oh, no. And so this is sort of perpetual, inter neighbour warfare that is going on. So Rome is really small on the Mediterranean stage at this point, that’s really clear. And there are some big players, and they are not one of them. But and I think this
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:13:26 moments, the big players are far away. Yes.
Dr G 1:13:29 Yeah. And they’re not interested in them.
Dr Rad 1:13:33 Tiny area?
Dr G 1:13:35 Well, I think they they actually want to be big in their tiny area. That’s what’s clear, but they’re not like they’re constantly having issues from their literal next door, neighbours. It’s not even the guys like one tribe over the hill away. It’s the guy on the hill, who’s looking down at me
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:13:51 is right there. Exactly. Veii is inside the urban boundaries of the city of Rome as it exists today. Yeah. And like, it’s not particularly close. Yeah, Rome is the leading city of Leishan, but lation is not like the hub of Italy. So, you know, Rome is like, you know, we’re like, the biggest town in like the third largest region.
Dr G 1:14:16 Wow, guys. Wow.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:14:19 Right. Like, yeah, the real action is clearly either in the Greek states clinging to the southern coast, or the Etruscans. To the north, you know, at this early point, and, and there actually had been, I should note efforts to sort of understand like the early Roman Army as a sort of imitation Etruscan army. This is certainly the lens. I mentioned, Peter Connelly’s the lens Peter Connelly takes Jeremy pushes back a little bit on this, which is fair, but the Etruscan influence is clearly not nothing. And it’s like well, yeah, their cities are bigger than you and they’re stronger than you, like the Etruscans at this point, are telling the Greeks in the Carthaginians to piss off out of their waters pardon my language. and something the Romans are doing, and won’t be doing for a while.
Dr G 1:15:04 Yeah. And I think that the idea that somehow Rome is somehow unique, even though it’s sitting directly on this sort of southern tip of a curio and a trust and influence. And there’s clearly inter crossovers and cultural exchange going on. And if a trust and warfare is something that is happening in a way that they’re getting to win, obviously, you’re going to adopt that kind of style and tactics in order to combat that.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:15:34 Yeah, it’s clear, one thing that we have in in Italy is what the fancy political scientists will call convergence under conditions of interstate anarchy. When you have a whole lot of states that are all fighting in a kind of winner take all brawl. They’re in a kind of arms race of militarism, where every successful military innovation is almost immediately copied by all of your neighbours. If folks want to think about more, more recent period, like think, early modern Europe, for this kind of like cockpit of fighting, where like, if that guy now has cannon, you need cannon, and you needed them yesterday, and part of what we see and we see this borne out in Livy’s narrative, and I think we may be questioning the particulars, I suspect we can trust the theme is that the Romans are repeatedly put under conditions of military duress, and forced to alter significant social structures to maximise military potential. Yeah, we’ll say if there was one genius of the Roman Republic, it is that the Roman ruling class seems never to have missed an opportunity to develop military power. When their neighbours have good weapons, they adopt them. If you need to see it, a little bit of power to the plebeians in order to get their guys in your army. You do that, when the Romans do begin expanding in Italy, what’s really striking is most empires conquer their neighbours, and are like, I’m going to get rich by imposing tribute on you, I’m going to put taxes on you. And then I’m going to spend lavishly. And the Romans are like, actually, we’re not going to do that we’re going to keep our very minimal state budget, we’re going to continue funding our own army through our own land tax. So like nothing empires do. Instead, what we want from you is troops, and we want them to arrive equipped, and we would like you to pay them so that you handle all of that. So what we’re asking for is like a unit of military power, pre processed for us so that we can use it immediately. And as the Romans expand in Italy, they repeatedly make this decision to structure their arrangements internally and externally in ways that maximise military potential. And in the end, of course, produce the preposterous Roman war machine of the middle Republic that becomes absolutely unstoppable and the Romans bowled over the other great powers. With the exception of Carthage, it ends up looking almost effortless, like only the Carthaginians put up a halfway decent fight. You know, when it comes down to it, outside of Italy, obviously like Paris can get some credit here too. But all of the Romans just like they just drown Paris, in men and equipment, there’s like we will keep losing armies until you lose interest. And we we will definitely you will definitely run out of interest before we run out of armies. And I do want to stress because iron arms and armors guide do not think about those kinds of decisions purely in terms of manpower and men. It’s not just people, they’re throwing out this. It is money. It is equipment, it is animals, horses and Pack Mules. It is supplies for these camps. They are mobilising economic resources on a preposterously staggering scale. But that is all the product of 100 100 decisions, most of which are invisible to us, often presented to us in like these Livy’s. And just so stories about Roman virtues that we probably shouldn’t trust. But I think the underlying process is clearly happening. And it’s a strikingly different decision making process than many other states made. I mean, my mind always jumps to when the Athenians found themselves in possession of an empire. They taxed it and built really big temples in Athens and created social welfare programmes like jury pay. When the Romans find themselves in possession of an empire, their first question is, how can I turn this into more armies to get more empire? Which comes down, of course, I think, to the political motivations. If you’re the console, you don’t get a triumph for bringing in tax revenue, you get a triumph for winning battles. So your question, whatever resources you have is like, How can I turn these into winning battles? Because that is what my political system rewards and
Dr Rad 1:19:40 even has to be even certain types of battles, right, like ones that are going to be in glory. Like if like, if you’re like Crassus and fighting a bunch of slaves, they’re like, Oh, good. Thanks for taking care of that.
Dr G 1:19:53 triumph for that one.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:19:54 And the other thing I would note is that by all indication, Rome in Italy is not unique in this militarism race, everybody else is doing this too. And Rome’s last big shattering wars before it completes his conquest of the peninsula are against giant federal entities like it the Etruscans all band together to try and stop the Romans, they get a whole bunch of Gauls and Samnites in their coalition to try and contain the Romans. And the moment the Romans are done with that all of the Greek cities pool together invite Pyrrhus of Epirus over and also make a kind of combined effort. Because the same pressures that are working on Rome are working on everybody else. Rome just happened to be the state that mastered the system. But I’m not sure if it had been an interest in state, if it had been another Latin state, if it had been a Samnite. State, I’m not actually sure the system would have looked very different. The one thing I will say is probably unique about the Romans is precisely because they sit on this meeting point of cultures with Latins and Sabines and Etruscans. They do seem to be better at handling Multicultural Alliance systems than just about anybody else. And I suspect that cultural competence comes from their geographic position. Hmm, interesting,
Dr G 1:21:10 interesting. So I think this taps in nicely to the idea that you’ve touched on, which is the logistics side of things. So one of the things that happens in this early Republican period that we’re navigating is they they talk about the way that drawing people out into the Army is maybe a recipe for leaving the fields, which need to be tended by somebody open to becoming fallow to not being harvested properly. And the consequence down the line in the first year is that you don’t get a great crop. But the consequence in the second year is that you haven’t grown anything at all. And feeding an army is obviously a massive undertaking, as Rome gets bigger and bigger. But these early periods suggests that maybe this is a lesson that they’re learning gradually as they go along.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:21:59 Yeah. Although, of course, we also want to be on guard against our sources. This idea of manpower shortage and of leaving the fields on tended, or at least untended by free labour is a major theme in our late authors. And so one wonders is Livy reading the civil wars into his sources and like, well, they’re going to war all the time. So clearly, the fields must be empty, this must be the problem. On the other hand, if you’re going to war all the time, yeah, you may be straining your labour reserves. And now an army on the march is not supplied from home. Usually in this period. The problem is what I refer to as the tyranny of the waggon equation, although the Romans aren’t using waggons. For this, they’re using mules, anything in the ancient or indeed, anything in the pre 1800s ad world that moves food eats food, except for sailboats. And so at some point of distance, your army you can’t ship food from base to supply them, at least not without tremendous expense. You have to set up magazines and relays and it’s a whole thing. And the Romans certainly aren’t doing that yet. They will later. The Romans you know, again, by the middle Republic, the Romans are shipping grain across the Mediterranean to support military operations, their logistics become staggeringly sophisticated, not this early though. So instead your armies you can carry a bit of food with you, but not a lot. Who does heavy. So what you do is you pillage the farmlands, you’re moving over, you take their food, we know that by the middle Republic. Again, the Roman legion is incredibly sophisticated in this regard that the Roman legion can do the entire wheat processing cycle within it. Um, the Roman soldiers, they carry threshing tools and sickles and portable mills and these are hand Mills there. They are hand mills in my hand.
Dr G 1:23:51 Yeah, it’s a bit like a coffee grinder with you. Yes,
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:23:55 it’s about a 50 pound stone object though you keep it on the mule. And so Roman army can turn a field of enemy grain into bread on its own. Which is a remarkable logistics advantage. And that capability is clearly central the Roman army and it had to have emerged at some point, would you have needed it to fight ve in 406? No, because you can just bring a lunch. I was gonna say rather than
Dr G 1:24:24 a day’s walk away, there’ll be fine
Dr Rad 1:24:27 Crunch and sip as you go.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:24:28 But clearly is Roman warfare spreads out the logistical sophistication builds. On the flip side, especially if you’re trading raids back and forth with Veii over and over again. You raid their fields, they raid your fields, you’re both pulling people out of the fields, and at the same time, you’re both wrecking each other’s farming. You can see how this would produce food shortages, and I can believe that it did it it is it is worth noting this is a really long standing argument mostly in Greek historiography. That is the story of ancient Greece not the historiography. be written in modern Greek, it is really hard to permanently damage ancient farms. But it is really easy to disrupt them for a year. And so you can absolutely see how this kind of warfare when its high intensity would become disruptive enough to become inconvenient, though, again, having doubts about Livi reading manpower shortages, when these armies may not be large enough to pull that many men, most societies can’t get enough people into an army to cause leader labour shortages. The Romans certainly can by the Second Punic War, and that’s shocking. But most societies can’t. They’re simply there, they, they’re not well organised enough to recruit that hard. Well, and
Dr Rad 1:25:43 as you highlighted, again, as far as we can tell, from the references we get in source material, slavery was a thing, you know, from very early on, and so the slaves wouldn’t necessarily obviously been going off to fight rather not. And so if you’re leaving them behind, presumably, Daikon tend to feel?
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:26:02 Yeah, though, of course, awkward questions about how many are exactly? Generally speaking, so one, straight up before like, 225? We don’t know. But But generally speaking, and here, there’s a lot of scepticism, but I’m Walter Scheidel, and a few arguments kind of laid out like here’s got to be what the range is. Italy is, weirdly enough, it seems in in the middle Republic, it is definitely a slave society, but it is perhaps less so than Greece, we might assume maybe about a third of people in Greece are enslaved versus maybe 10 15%, in Rome, in Italy. So you can imagine that not being enough to keep the economy running, that figure will rise dramatically as a result of Roman conquests to something like maybe even 20% 25% By the early Empire, which is probably the peak and then the figure then would begin to fall again, we think, but yes, this is definitely a slave society. And so you do have, you do have labourers who are viewed as unfit for military service. And this is a clear theme for the Romans. If in a crisis, you want to put slaves in the army, you must free them first. Which is really interesting, because you have a lot of other societies that will enrol slaves in the army with the promise of freedom at the end of the campaign. And the Romans are like, no, no, no, no, no. Before you hand, anybody a weapon, they have to be a free person. You cannot have enslaved people in the Army or the Navy, you have to free them first. And you know, that’s a sort of striking Roman cultural quirk that probably fits with I mean, the Romans are also a more Manumission slave society than most they be more slaves than most, though, again, so that people don’t get the wrong idea, ancient slavery saw, and I just, I don’t want people to walk away with too rosy a picture of what was a very ugly institution. Oh, definitely.
Dr Rad 1:27:55 Yeah. All right. Well, this has been absolutely fascinating. I have learned so much, and I do believe you. So just when I say that, to wrap up, we thought it might be a good idea for you to tell us maybe like your top three misconceptions about the early Roman military that you’d love for people to have a more accurate view of,
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:28:20 I’m actually I’m gonna I’m going to have consuls rather than military tribunes with consular powers. Because I think there’s sort of twin pitfalls for the Roman army in almost every period. And it’s even more true when your evidence is weak. And to the right, the pitfall is excessive modernism, it is the assumption that the Roman army looks like modern armies, and has the values of modern armies. And you get a lot of popular facing stuff, both supposedly nonfiction, but also a lot of historical fiction that reads into like, well, the Romans were basically like Marines, right? Like they had the values of like the US military. I’m going to call it an offer Steven Pressfield. Books are awful for this. Um, he does it to the Greeks too. And it’s nonsense. The man has very little grasp on ancient value systems, I’m afraid I’m sorry if you enjoy his books. So that’s sort of one pitfall is assuming excessive modernity uniform equipment, that they have values like modern soldiers, as I have been arguing about lately that they view gender issues the way moderns do. And then of course, the other danger is excessive primitivism. That is that falls off on the other side is like, well, these are just kind of like disorganised warrior bands and like no, I mean, these are intelligent thinking human beings who are trying to organise armies and win battles and not die, and they are doing their best to organise that and, you know, at least by the time we get to the middle Republic, the level of sophistication here is significant and it has been developing for some time. And so you I want to resist the idea that these guys are just banging rocks together. And so I mean, I sort of see those as like the twin pitfalls. And then the question is, how do you navigate the difficult space in the middle? And the answer is, I think, to let the sources guide you as much as they can, albeit with your healthy dose of scepticism. Away always.
Dr G 1:30:23 Look, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. Oh, thanks
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:30:28 for thanks for having me. This
Dr G 1:30:29 was great. This was a real pleasure. And yeah, it’s one of these areas, which it is so full of information on the one hand, and so full of questions on the other, that it obviously has this propels a sense of curiosity about like, how do these people live their lives, how is the Roman world really working, and it becomes such an increasing part of what they do and what they ended up having leaving as a legacy. So to be able to understand it better to see where these gaps are emerging? To know what we don’t know, I think is really, really, really useful. So thank you so much, again, for coming on the show. Well, and
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:31:08 I don’t know, in another 10 or 15 years, when you guys get to the middle Republic, I can come back and talk about that army.
Dr G 1:31:15 Yeah, we’ll be so confused by them. They’ll be like, oh, man, another battle.
Dr Rad 1:31:22 Talking about like troop movements, my eyes just like glaze over.
Dr G 1:31:26 I think it’s pretty clear that from where we’re coming from, like our background is more like social history. And and Fiona’s is reception. And so thinking about how this really intricate and really sophisticated, important element of the Roman world operates is really useful. So yeah, it’s been great.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:31:47 And, and as I as I repeat over and over again, when I talk about military and when I teach military history, social history and military history are not separate, because no army can help but recreate the structures of its societies on the battlefield. Every army does it. Ours, there’s all of them. So you have to understand both.
Dr Rad 1:32:09 No, that’s a very good point. You made me may be more inspired to learn about military history. I am going to preorder your book
Dr G 1:32:20 Oxford University Press, please put me on your waiting list.
Dr Bret Devereaux 1:32:26 I have to get them a manuscript first. Easy peasy, right? Just a simple thing Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:32:39 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. If monthly patronage is just not your style, we also have merch, a book or you can buy us a coffee on Ko-fi. However, if your Imperial coffers do not overfloweth, one of the easiest and most important ways to help us is to tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Why not both? Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 147 - The Fall of Verrugo
Feb 15, 2024
Back in 409 BCE, the Romans had captured the fortifications of Verrugo from their Volscian foe. Unfortunately, in this episode we must discuss the bloody fall of Verrugo.
Episode 147 – The Fall of Verrugo
The Romans had seized Verrugo after Carventum was retaken by the Aequians, allies of the Volscians. Verrugo was located in Volscian territory to the south of Rome. This had seemed like a huge triumph as they had secured lots of booty along with the fort.
In 407 BCE, the garrison that had been left behind sent an urgent message for help, hidden in a small droid. The Romans took their sweet time to send reinforcements. When they arrived, a terrible scene greeted them…
Join us in this short episode on the fall of Verrugo!
Our Players 407 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409, Mil. Tr. c. p. 405, 398, 397, 395, 394, 391?
C. Valerius L. f. Volusi n. Potitus Volusus (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c. p. 415, 404
N. (or Cn.) Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus (Pat) Cos. 421, Mil. Tr. c. p. 415
C. Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 408, 402
Our Sources
Dr G reads the Fasti Capitolini and Diodorus Siculus 14.11.5-6, 14.3.1
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.57.
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
This transcript has been automatically generated by Otter AI.
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And
Dr G 0:30 I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians and ancient Roman history podcasts. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,
Dr G 1:10 and I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:13 Hey, hated Dr G, what’s happening?
Dr G 1:16 Oh you know, just sitting down ready to talk about Ancient Rome in all of its glory.
Dr Rad 1:24 We are in an exciting moment, Dr. G, because we’ve been tracing the journey of Rome from the founding of the city and we are slowly edging our way towards the turn into a new century, which I find very exciting. I don’t know why because of course, centuries are arbitrary that, hey,
Dr G 1:39 I think it is exciting. Partly because as historians, we tend to periodize things mentally. So it’s like, even though it might not just be another year, it holds a certain significance, because we start to think about, well, we’ll call it a different century. And maybe there’ll be some different evidence coming through and maybe events will shift who knows what we’ll discover.
Dr Rad 2:04 Indeed, now, if you haven’t been listening to the podcast up until now, I highly recommend you go back because we’ve been talking a lot about the conflict of the orders, which is between these two supposes groups, the patricians and plebeians. And quite frankly, we can’t read capital here.
Dr G 2:19 It’s long and arduous. And let’s just say the patricians are probably on the balance still on top.
Dr Rad 2:29 Indeed, and the plebeians are, on the whole, not. So Dr G. We’re up to 407 this episode, but before we get into that, what happened in 408 BC? Well,
Dr G 2:43 if my recollection serves 408, was marked by a little bit of military tribunes with consular power, then that gave way to a dictator and his master of the horse.
Dr Rad 2:58 Not without some slappy fighting though.
Dr G 3:00 No, there was there was some upset folk amongst that. But nevertheless, it went ahead. And they headed down to Antium, which is south of Rome, but on the coast. And they took back what I think Rome thought was theirs, which was control of Antium. Because Antium had sort of started to get into a little bit of a situation with the Volscii and the Aequians. And although it seems like they were laughing at those guys, at in any case, there seem to be a confluence of these groups of peoples in the south towards Antium. And Rome was not having that they were like, that’s gonna, that looks like collaboration. We’re not into that kind of thing. Let’s go down and put a stop to that right there. And they did,
Dr Rad 3:49 indeed, with remarkable ease.
Dr G 3:52 So easy that we have no details about the battle. Exactly.
Dr Rad 3:56 Which means that I think it’s time for us to dive in to 407 BC.
Dr G 4:18 It’s 407 BCE. What a time to be alive.
Dr Rad 4:24 It is now I did. I did give a bit of a spoiler last time, which is that we know that we’ve got military tribunes with consular power, which means there is a possibility for the plebeians. But once again, I did ruin it by saying that they weren’t going to be any elected. So we know it’s going to be all patricians. all the time.
Dr G 4:42 Patricians all the way down. So we get four of them voted in as military tribunes with consular power for 407.
Dr Rad 4:50 Indeed, now I also did let slip that they all have previous experience in this position
Dr G 4:56 they do which kind of suggests that Rome whether our animalistic sources are telling us or not seems to suggest that Rome in this period, maybe had some military qualms, and were concerned about things that were going on in the general neighbourhood. So maybe they wanted some experienced players in there. I
Dr Rad 5:16 think they had an evil plan. I think Rome was planning to take over the world and by the world I mean, some more tearing
Dr G 5:28 things next door at the very least.
Dr Rad 5:32 God dammit, I want those things next door.
Dr G 5:36 I see whatsoever on that fence. The grass is greener, and I shall have it
Dr Rad 5:40 that we mark we mark but by this point, Rome is actually the preeminent power in this area at this point in time.
Dr G 5:49 They are they seem to be consistently winning now. At least from what we’ve seen from the last few years. That wasn’t true before. No.
Dr Rad 5:59 And like the Etruscans are They’re more just there. They’re not like, you know,
Dr G 6:04 oh, well, let’s Look for that one too much. Wait for it, guys.
Dr Rad 6:08 Like they did they are there but they’re not like menacing Rome really.
Dr G 6:13 They haven’t come south for some rains for a little while. No, like, anyway, we’ll see. We’ll see. I’m looking forward to what happens in this year because all I have is a great passage to read out to you from Diodorus Siculus yet again. And in terms of evidence, literally the FastI Capitolini Which I’ve supplemented as always with Broughton, who I adore. Yeah, so our military tributes are Lucius Furius Medullinus. A Furii.
Dr Rad 6:47 Yeah. Now we have met this particular Furii before I believe we
Dr G 6:52 certainly have and very recently as well, he was previously consul in 413. And also in 409, which was not that long ago. No,
Dr Rad 7:02 and that was the big you and everyone was very upset because a plebeian being actually got somewhere. How
Dr G 7:07 How dare they? Very rude. Then we have Gaius Valerius Volusi Potitus Volusus.
Dr Rad 7:17 Another familiar name.
Dr G 7:18 Indeed. So he was previously consequent 410. Yeah. And also a military Tribune with consular power in 415. Hmm.
Dr Rad 7:28 So he swings both ways. He
Dr G 7:30 doesn’t mind what you call the position as long as he gets it.
Dr Rad 7:35 Oh, yeah.
Dr G 7:38 That kind of guy. We have a guy who’s praenomen is up for grabs, but only because Livy is wrong. I know.
Dr Rad 7:49 Shocking, shocking. So that’s fine.
Dr G 7:54 Majority of sources for this period suggest that he’s probable nomen is going to be Numerius. Okay, but Livy seems to think it might be Gnaeus.
Dr Rad 8:08 Well, I mean, isn’t that just fitting in with the whole idea that he has numerous praenomens.
Dr G 8:18 I have sad news listeners. I have to retire from this podcast now. So we’ve got Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Vibulanus, okay, previously consul in 421 and military tribune with consular power in 415. So an old colleague of our Volusus friends friends indeed are friends in indeed, yeah. And finally, to round out this group of four is Gaius Servilius. Ahala.
Dr Rad 8:53 Well colour me completely unsurprised.
Dr G 8:57 Yeah. This guy’s back for the second year in a row. Yes.
Dr Rad 9:00 But he made quite a splash last year. So yeah, I’m not surprised. I understand that the Romans probably like him very much. Indeed. It certainly would seem that way. Yeah, I mean, Livy’s explicitly says that Ahala was reelected because he was just so awesome.
Dr G 9:19 It makes sense. I mean, he done a great job being the sensible one of the military tribunes and 408 and was rewarded with his upgrade to master of the horse for being sensible. So everybody knows he’s a good egg and are very reliable at this point.
Dr Rad 9:36 Well, yes, everyone patrician but sure.
Dr G 9:40 ruin the illusion.
Dr Rad 9:44 I got my elite goggles on. I’m ready.
Dr G 9:47 So that’s basically all I
Dr Rad 9:50 know. This whole year. All right. Oh, good. Let’s get into it. Okay, so this is going to be a little bit confusing, I think for the next we’ll actually Probably the next 20 years, but maybe particularly now. So Livy tells me that this is the year in which the truce that room had with they runs out. As I as we’ve noted that after, you know, quite a lot of shuffling, things have been fairly quiet on the Etruscan front, you know, up until now, like it’s hasn’t been too bad. And they is definitely a part of that Etruscan northern people. They’re not united as we know, they are, they all have their own little thing going on there. But they obviously share culture. They, however, is the one that we keep coming back to probably because it’s obviously like the closest to Rome. Indeed.
Dr G 10:47 So Veii is considered one of the southernmost points of a Etrurian influence in terms of established city. Yeah. And it’s like they do have a sort of remit of influence that goes further south than that to a certain extent. But this is their last sort of big settlement to the south.
Dr Rad 11:06 Yeah. Now, the reason why I say this is going to be a bit confusing is that there is there I should perhaps say, questions about the dating of this. So as you highlighted, actually, in previous episodes, the timing and other sources like diet or set we’ve been seeing for a few episodes, now, it doesn’t really always match up with what Livy’s is saying. And it does actually say that levy is potentially wrong. It seems like they’ve maybe tweaked the dates a little bit, because they’ve wanted things to happen at particular time. Oh,
Dr G 11:46 what? interference with the source material? Livy, what are you doing?
Dr Rad 11:52 I Look, it’s it’s probably also the fact that as we know, there’s you know, like, not the best source material probably for this time period. So what’s the year here or there between friends when the source material is patchy and unreliable anyway? Yeah. So is actually quite likely that the truce, potentially doesn’t happen in this year.
Dr G 12:16 Like that, as in the truce doesn’t run out?
Dr Rad 12:19 Yeah, yeah. Okay. It doesn’t seem to quite add up. At this point in time. This is what we’re dealing with. So let’s just run with it. So the Romans want to, you know, find out what’s going on and probably renew it, I suppose. And they want to do it in a very formal way. They want to make sure everything’s correct. So they’re sending out ambassadors and the fetiales strategy. Oh,
Dr G 12:43 I think that’s a good idea. If you want to get something done properly, it’s got to be right in the eyes of the gods.
Dr Rad 12:49 Indeed, if you could, perhaps remind us what the fetiales are.
Dr G 12:53 The sweet fetiales? Well, we haven’t heard from them in a while, and haven’t but I suspect that that is not because they’ve not been doing anything, I suspect, it’s because our narrative sources have just sort of passed over them and assume that the reader understands that they’re turning up to things. So these guys operate as a pair, usually. And they’re very involved in making sure that if a conflict is likely to occur, that the signs are right with the gods, that Rome will be victorious. So they go out and they’re looking for things. And usually, if the situation is looking a little bit dire, and it looks like war is going to happen, they’ll get pretty dressed up, one of them will, where they’re very formal attire, the other one will be a bit more plain, and they’ll start doing eating again, sequence. Yeah, you know, a little bit of purple, a little bit of gold, you know, you gotta Look good. And they will deliberately walk towards me enemy territory. And they’re both looking for signs, and they’re also reciting certain things. So they’re making sort of a ritual gesture, everything about the sort of the speaking component of this is really important. If you’re a priest, you always wanted to have very clear and precise enunciation of words, it becomes one of the ways in which you communicate appropriately with the gods. So they’ll get to the edge of Roman controlled territory, and the enemy territory and they’ll recite appropriately be like, you know, this is a situation we call upon the gods, you know, bow down to Rome, etc, etc. If not, war is coming for you. And then they’ll proceed into that territory and keep reciting that kind of thing at intervals until they get to the city itself. So ultimately, the ambassadors are kind of like your diplomatic mission, and they probably have gone on ahead to sort of negotiate and work out some terms, and then the fetiales turn up and that’s kind of the time where negotiations should have been concluded by now. The enemy should have a good idea that they’re not going to make war with Rome appropriately and would respond in kind to the press. Slowly sort of incantations that are being offered to them, if they don’t wash alphabets, if the signs are good, and ruin doesn’t get the response that’s required, it’s time sending the armed forces. I think the very worst thing anybody could do would be to kill the fetiales. If they turned up in enemy territory, that would be a huge issue.
Dr Rad 15:19 Yeah, that’s like killing the Red Cross or something. Yeah.
Dr G 15:23 So we don’t have a report of that. At least not yet. But I guess we’ll find out soon.
Dr Rad 15:28 All right, well, I actually kind of love the way that this is all playing out. Because it’s very much like the Romans are like, cool. I got to renew my car insurance, better get ahead of that. Because the Romans trotting out with their little band of people. And when they get to the frontier of I guess they’re tearing their respective territories, because of course, there has been conflict between these guys in the past. And I think they know very well, where, you know, their sphere of influences are they actually run into an embassy from Veii? Oh,
Dr G 15:57 that’s convenient. Again,
Dr Rad 16:00 I just love the fact that they’re both like, Well,
Dr G 16:03 wait a minute. Are you coming to see me? Because I’m coming to see you. Yeah,
Dr Rad 16:07 it’s been 20 years now. Yeah. So they say, Look, would you mind not going to Vegas right now, we’d really like to speak to the Roman Senate first. Oh, interesting. So the Romans agree the Senate agree to say that because apparently everybody knows that they is having some embarrassing domestic problems.
Dr G 16:31 Ooh, somebody pooedtheir pants? Well, if
Dr Rad 16:35 we’ve learned anything from doing this podcast up to God, we have learned that room would kick somebody when they’re down. And so at least that’s what they seem to think about themselves. And so they’re like, there would be no honour in dealing with Veii right now, because they’re having internal problems. And we respect that
Dr G 16:55 as a place that has many internal problems ourselves.
Dr Rad 17:00 Indeed, yes. And now, apparently, this is kind of backed up with what we know. Now, as you know, Dr. G, we don’t have great sources from an Etruscan perspective. Like, there’s some archaeology and you know, there’s bits and pieces, and there’s stuff that rocks, you know, that turns up in our room and sources or programmers sources, but we don’t have like long narrative histories from an Etruscan point of view, which is a real shame. However, it does seem like there was potentially some internal unrest, and that this does have something to do with the fact that the Etruscans do start to peter out.
Dr G 17:41 Okay. So as far as we’re aware, at this point in time, the last time that we really, or at least the last time, I really remember Veii, it was the issue with Lars Tolumnius. And he’s one of the Etruscan kings, and he was his remit was included Veii. So the fact that they lost one of their key leaders, they don’t, maybe they’ve not necessarily bounced back from that in a strong way. Look, it
Dr Rad 18:08 could be that but apparently, a trust in society does seem to have been quite classist. And this may have contributed to additional internal problems, as well as the fact that you know, that King got pretty severely killed anyway. But for now, room is like, yeah, no problems. Well, we’ll chat we’ll chat you know, later, no problems. So now we switch to the other people with a V that we’ve been talking about, Volscians, ah, the Romans, as we know, have recently conquered a place called Verrugo.
Dr G 18:45 But that that name will never not make me laugh, Verrugo.
Dr Rad 18:51 Verrugo, I go! So the garrison that they had left behind to hold Verrugo sent a message saying, Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope. Yeah. Now, there was a chance that the Romans, of course, could have managed to tough this out, make it work. But unfortunately, the relief horses that they sent just didn’t arrive in time, which makes me think that the Romans when they received the urgent message, were like, Can I just finish my snack and I’ve only got like five minutes left in the TV show. And then I’ve just got to have a quick shower and change. Oh, my God, where did I put my shoes and umbrella, it looks like it’s going to rain and I can’t leave until I found my umbrella. But anyway, by the time the Romans show up, the Volscians, busy plundering away after having slaughtered the Roman garrison. That is not good. Yeah. Again, apart from my, my little aside, that actually the reason that caused them to be a bit slow, was to do with of course, the leadership, the military tribunes and this Senate, they had heard That, obviously they needed help, because well, they’re the people that the message was addressed to. But they seem to have kind of overlooks the fact that a garrison is just a small force and therefore, they weren’t going to be able to hold out, you know, indefinitely. Okay, so they just kind of were they were in a rush. Yeah, they will just go. Yeah, we’ll get around to it.
Dr G 20:21 Yeah, that’s a garrison there. That’s what really we have a military presence. It’d be fun. Yeah. Because the Volscii have
Dr Rad 20:28 exactly like, Look how easily we defeated them just a year ago, maybe not even a year ago.
Dr G 20:33 I see. So yeah, maybe a little bit of hubris, and maybe a little bit of miscalculation, perhaps.
Dr Rad 20:40 But of course, such a horrific outcome. Could not be overlooked up today. No,
Dr G 20:47 it’s embarrassing. I mean, if room wants to say face, they really do need to retake for rugo. Now,
Dr Rad 20:53 they really do. And that’s going to take me into 406 BCE.
Dr G 20:58 Ooh okay. Well, before we launch into 406 vc, yes. Let me introduce you to what I think is so far, the greatest passage of Diodorus Siculus. Oh, please. So he starts a new book, that oh, it comes into this year, okay. And this frames, everything. So he kind of is like putting a nice little present around this new book. So I just want to read the opening to you, which is it, it’s reasonably long, but I think it’s fine. And then I’ll give you a little bit of insight into like the sort of broader politics that are happening here. Okay, so over to Diodorus and I quote, All men, perhaps naturally, are disinclined to listen to obloquy keys that are uttered against them. Indeed, even those whose evil doing is in every respect, so manifest that I cannot even be denied. Nonetheless, deeply resented when they are the objects of censure, and endeavour to make a reply to the accusation. Consequently, all men should take every possible care not to commit any evil deed, and those especially who aspire to leadership, or have been favoured by some striking gift or fortune. For since the life of such men is in all things, an open book because of that distinction, it cannot conceal its own on wisdom. Let no man therefore, who has gained some kind of preeminence, cherished the hope that if he commits great crimes, he will for all time escaped notice and go uncentered. For even if during his own lifetime, he alludes the sentence of rebuke, let him expect that at a later time, Truth will find him out. Frankly, proclaiming abroad matters long hidden from mention. It is therefore a hard fate for wicked men, that at their death, they leave to posterity an undying image, so to speak, of their entire life, for even if those things that follow after death do not concern us, as certain philosophers keep chanting. Nevertheless, the life which has preceded death becomes far worse throughout all time, for the evil memory that it enjoys. Manifest examples of this may be found by those who read the detailed story contained in
Dr Rad 23:17 this book. I love that that would be quite the thing to read to, oh, I don’t know, all politicians,
Dr G 23:26 I think so. I feel like there’s a real resonance for the world as it stands right now. And there are many people who would have benefited from thinking about this lesson.
Dr Rad 23:35 You know, I’m gonna throw in leaders of large corporations and small ones and medium sized ones to
Dr G 23:44 in fact, anybody in a position of power will benefit from this advice,
Dr Rad 23:48 absolutely. Parents too, what the hell.
Dr G 23:52 So this is whatever is coming up in Diodorus. And it’s not going to be really about Rome, I would hazard a guess because he tends to lay it nearly gives them like one sentence every couple of years, and moves on to other things. But this is a really big time for Athens in particular. So in Diodorus is narrative we’re in about 404 – 403 BCE, and this means that although the Peloponnesian War is over, we’re immediately thrown into the situation with the Spartan oligarchy known as the 30 tyrants. Ooh, let
Dr Rad 24:28 me have talks about this. Yeah. Which is pretty
Dr G 24:31 bad. Yeah. And that’s the thing that’s happening. Meanwhile, in other gossipy news, for those who are interested in a little bit of Greek history, the really famous or infamous Alcibiades ides of Athens is put to death by Pharnabazus. A satrap of King Darius in Persia. So that doesn’t go well. Also, this is the year where We lose the philosopher Democritus. For those interested in nature and philosophy. He had a good innings, he got to 90, it’s not so bad. And also we do get a mention of, again, I’ll quote in Italy, the Roman garrison of Erruca in brackets Verrugo. He doesn’t know the name of the place. A city of the Volscii was attacked by the enemy, who captured the city in slew most of the defenders.
Dr Rad 25:29 This is very true. And that it has been well correct apart from the name of the
Dr G 25:34 plane. So correct except for not knowing where it is, what it’s called. But yeah, he gives one whole sentence to that situation.
Dr Rad 25:46 I love it.
Dr G 25:47 So we will say that it’s a cliffhanger episode right now.
Dr Rad 25:53 Yeah, so unfortunately, I know you’re dying to know how the Romans are going to deal with this situation in Verrugo. But I’m afraid you’re just going to have to wait to the next episode. Because 406 is so gigantic, that if we talked about it now, you’d be here for like, the next two hours, I think.
Dr G 26:09 We certainly don’t want to deprive you of that. But we’re gonna give it its own two hour slot in the future.
Dr Rad 26:14 We will all right, Dr. G. Well, that means that it’s time for the partial pick
Dr G 26:18 up boy. Miscellaneous ego noise here. It’s the partial pick, it is the time where we rank Rome, against its own qualities, the things that it values most. So there are five categories each are possible to get 10 Golden Eagles in so that means if room is doing its very best to be its best self, it’ll get 50 Golden Eagles.
Dr Rad 26:43 Look, I’m not gonna lie. I feel like we’ve kind of set room up for failure here. Not a lot happening. And four, seven, certainly not a lot to their advantage. And they’ve would I think, have had a more interesting score if we’d been able to do them together, but it’s just not gonna happen. We’re just gonna have to, you have to cop it on the chin.
Dr G 27:03 I think there’ll be fine. They’ll survive. Yeah. All right. So
Dr Rad 27:06 what’s our first category Dr G?
Dr G 27:07 Our first category is military clout? Definitely. No. That is a big no. What they do is what they dilly dally, and they leave their garrison unsupported.
Dr Rad 27:21 And they all get killed.
Dr G 27:24 Even Diodorus noticed, that’s how bad it is.
Dr Rad 27:28 Exactly, exactly. I feel like yeah, it being corroborated is reassuring. Okay.
Dr G 27:33 So 00 Okay, diplomacy.
Dr Rad 27:38 Okay. Now, there is something to work with here. Because the Romans actually seem to be trying quite hard to get along with they.
Dr G 27:45 Yeah, I think there is something to be said for them accepting that they will receive those ambassadors from Veii rather than just powering on with sending their own and talking at cross purposes.
Dr Rad 27:58 Yeah. And they’re also imagining that they are a kind and fair people. Cute. So I Look, I’d be willing to give them an aid for that. Well, I mean, it’s some diplomacy. Like we very rarely see this.
Dr G 28:10 Yeah. I mean, it’s some diplomacy. It’s not like they’ve conceded anything. They’ve just said, Sure. We’ll listen to you.
Dr Rad 28:19 But then they were like, Look, we know you’re having issues and you don’t want to talk right now. So we’ll give you some personal time.
Dr G 28:26 What more could one ask from a friend?
Dr Rad 28:28 Okay, I’ll go for like a six. How about a six?
Dr G 28:31 I think that’s far more reasonable. I can. Six. Okay. The third category is expansion. Definitely
Dr Rad 28:40 not. It looks like they’re facing some serious reverses. If anything, they’ve slightly contracted. Oh, they definitely have. Yeah. So that would be a zero. Yep. All right.
Dr G 28:51 We’re to us now. Yes, good old fashioned Roman virtue is not on display here. I don’t think we get enough sort of characters coming through in our source material right now to make an assessment. So I think we have to give them nothing. Exactly. And finally the citizen score.
Dr Rad 29:11 Well, Look, they’re not technically at war, but I don’t feel like citizens would feel great about the whole vertigo situation. I mean, it’s their countrymen that are being slain, seemingly because the Senate and the military Tribunes forgot that a garrison is not a large army.
Dr G 29:31 Wow. Oh, maybe they just thought oh, who knows?
Dr Rad 29:36 I probably more being overly confident in their room and numbness but you know,
Dr G 29:42 alright, so it’s not a great time to be a citizen. But it’s not the worst time there hasn’t been like a forced levee. Some people have died, but not a lot of people have died because they didn’t send any backups. So
Dr Rad 29:57 not yet. But Look, I’m willing to only give it like too seriously, because we just don’t get enough information like it’s what’s to say, Yeah, I’m fine with that. Okay. That means after Dr G that the Romans have finished 407, on a grand total of eight out of 50 Golden Eagles. Oh,
Dr G 30:14 now that is, yes, this is what happens when you only Look at a single year without a lot of source material. It’s
Dr Rad 30:22 true. But you know what it was worth it to hear that passage from Diodorus
Dr G 30:26 Diodorus. I I’m like he’s given us a really sort of nice sort of moral outlook for what is to come. And I know, although he’s not very interested in Roman history, necessarily, that it stands as good advice to all those who achieved positions of power. How do you want to be remembered for your legacy? How do you want your memory to come through in subsequent times? Those things that you think you’re getting away with? Now, we’ll come back to count against your memory?
Dr Rad 30:57 Unless, of course, because world leaders and corporations are failing to do as much as they need to on climate change. History ceases to exist with humans.
Dr G 31:10 Yeah, Look, let us pray and hope and take a local action wherever we can to do our best to ward off such a fate.
Dr Rad 31:20 There definitely like let’s face it, climate change doesn’t mean that, you know, if we fail to act enough, which we are, it doesn’t mean that humans are going to be extinct like that. And therefore miss deeds will be remembered, at least for our future.
Dr G 31:36 They certainly will. And we can we can see the globe changing all the time in terms of its climate. So yeah, and
Dr Rad 31:43 the good news is we actually have all the technology and all the science that we need, what we the only thing we’re really lacking is action.
Dr G 31:52 Action. Yeah, moral leadership.
Dr Rad 31:56 Indeed. Well, on that very philosophical note, Dr. G
Dr G 32:00 it has been a pleasure to chat as always.
Dr Rad 32:13 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. We always like to thank our beloved Patreon but today we would like to give a special shout out to some lovely people who bought us a coffee on cofee. Tina, Jackie and Anne Marie. Thank you so much for your caffeinated thoughts. However, if you’re feeling like your currency has been devalued by an evil Emperor, then please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for our book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 146 - Nobody Calls Me Chicken
Jan 11, 2024
In this episode, the people of Antium start provoking the Aequians and the Volscians into war with Rome by calling them COWARDS. How else could they respond but to say, “Nobody calls me chicken!”
Episode 146 – Nobody Calls Me Chicken!
With the Antiates, Volscians and Aequians ganged up against them, the Romans decide it’s time for a dictator! Not all of the military tribunes were terribly happy with this decision. Ahala seems to have been the only magistrate who could put the state before his own ambitions.
As a reward for being such a dazzling military tribune, Ahala was chosen to serve as master of the horse, the assistant to the dictator.
Leaving his grumbling colleagues behind, Ahala and the dictator headed off to face the foe.
Tune in to hear how the Romans fare against THREE of their rivals.
Patricians resorting to incredibly desperate measures
Smug tribunes of the plebs
Dr G having a small identity crisis
Armpit farts
A mosaic of roosters fighting. Nobody calls them chicken! Courtesy of Amphipolis on Flickr.
Our Players 408 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
C. Iulius Sp. f. Vopisci n. Iullus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 405
P. Cornelius A. f. M. n. Cossus (Pat)
C. Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 407, 402.
Dictator
P. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Rutilus Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 405
Master of the Horse
C. Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 408, 407, 402
Our Sources
Dr G reads the Fasti Capitolini and Diodorus Siculus 13.104.1, 13.108.2, 13.109.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.56.
Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of Orange Free Sounds.
Automated Transcript.
This transcript was automatically generated by Otter AI.
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the partial historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And
Dr G 0:30 I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:04 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of your favourite ancient Roman History podcast. The partial historians I am Dr. Rad
psych it’s a new year.
I’m Dr. G
Dr Rad 1:30 Excellent. And I am Dr Rad. I am a very confused little Dr Rad.
Dr G 1:36 I was just thinking, you know, new year we’ll switch it up. We’ll see if anybody notices you notice straight away though.
Dr Rad 1:43 Well, you know, it’s a fairly distinctive name. I’ve had it all my life.
Dr G 1:48 Well, well, well.
Dr Rad 1:52 Well, welcome back. Dr. G. We are indeed in a new year. It’s 2024.
Dr G 1:57 At time of recording, yes,
Dr Rad 2:01 it is a time of recording. And in terms of tracing the journey of room from the founding of the city. We had a very big episode last episode where we were talking about 409 BCE.
Dr G 2:16 Yeah, not only is this like the landmark year that marks this first century of the Roman Republic, but oh, boy, was it full of plebeian action.
Dr Rad 2:28 It was indeed, I believe that after some lengthy handwringing, and some classic conflict of the orders narrative, we did finally get a plebeian into the quaestorship.
Dr G 2:42 That’s madness. It’s crazy. I won’t stand for it.
Dr Rad 2:46 Please, well, just going to end I mean, that’s all equality ever really needs, isn’t it?
Dr G 2:51 It’s all over guys. I don’t know how the patricians are going to hold up anymore. There’s not enough fast cars or enough muscle to get them through this.
Dr Rad 3:00 They certainly did Look at it as a sign that the world was about to end,
Dr G 3:04 indeed, but I don’t think it has fallen apart completely. Because we’re here to talk about what happens after 409.
Dr Rad 3:11 We will the privilege maintain their position of privilege? Or will they have to concede more to whoever mysterious people that will be? And actually,
Dr G 3:25 I guess we’ll find out. The other thing that’s running parallel to this whole situation is what appears to be an expanded conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians. So Rome is going through a bit of a military upheaval.
Dr Rad 3:39 They are indeed I mean, we’ve talked about these guys on and off, you know, for a while now, but it does seem to be particularly flaring up at this point in the century.
Dr G 3:51 Indeed. So with that sort of background in place, I think we might be ready to step into 408 BC.
Dr Rad 4:00 408 BCE. Now, Dr. G, I’m presuming Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you.
Dr G 4:27 That man is hiding from me in his fragments, and I don’t know what is going on.
Dr Rad 4:33 Oh, Dr. G, has no narrative source material once again. I’ll bet you anything. She can tell us who the magistrates are for this year.
Dr G 4:42 Yeah, Look, I mean, it’s not so bad. I can tell you things like who’s who? I do have the Fasti Capitolini, which is the ultimate guide to who’s who as far as most of us are concerned. And I have some little snippets from Diodorus Siculus as well. So we’ll get to those in due course. Okay. Okay. But we start off with a year where military tribunes with consular power appear to have been voted in. Yes. And we have three of these guys this year. Yes, we have Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus. A patrician. We have Publius Cornelius Cossus a patrician. Yeah. And a Gaius Servilius Ahala, a patrician.
Dr Rad 5:31 Well, Dr. G, I can’t say that I’m surprised. But given the way the patricians were carrying on last time, I really thought that maybe this was going to be the year when finally we were going to slee or see a plebeian elected into this position. But now, once again, I am amazingly disappointed.
Dr G 5:53 It’s too soon. The quaestorship is one thing but how dare the plebeians attempt to make a grab for anything beyond this station?
Dr Rad 6:02 That’s clearly what the patricians were worried about last episode, they thought that, you know, the quaestorship was, you know, just a stepping stone and it was all going to be downhill from here, as far as they were concerned, whereas for the plebeians it seemed to be very much uphill from here.
Dr G 6:16 There does seem to be a sense in which there might be multiple issues at play, though, because usually, when the patricians become quite scared of plebeians rising in influence and power in an official capacity, they opt for the consulship as a deliberate move, to lock out plugins. So we’ve got this kind of understanding that’s given to us through our annalistic sources. Obviously, there are some question marks there. But the consulship is still the preserve of the leads, and that if a plebeian were to get into a high position, that would include a military command, it would be as a military tribute with consular power. That’s, that’s one of the rationales that’s been put forward for why this position developed in the first place. Yeah. And yet, on the back of 409, where we see a rise in plebeians coming into the quaestorship, we now see that 408 has military tribunes with consular power. So is it there’s military issues on the horizon that Rome is concerned about, and they’re going to take a risk because they haven’t opted for the consulship? Here.
Dr Rad 7:24 Now, remember that last episode, that was a point of contention, and the patricians were dead against this idea, because of the reasons you have outlined, but at least I suppose the plebeians had the opportunity. Someone elected once again and yet, didn’t take it. It’s
Dr G 7:44 like how you had your chances, plebeians and yet fluffed it?
Dr Rad 7:49 Well, I mean, Look, this is where we have to get back to the voting system, of course, as far as we can understand it, which of course, we may not be able to, because we may not really have an accurate record of what exactly was happening in order to get elected at this point in time. But I think we’ve talked before about the fact that the voting system is also rigged against people who are poor. Now, plebeians aren’t necessarily poor. That is, but if we’re talking about there being a more nuanced class divide, as we have before, where you may have wealthy plebeians who are actually voting along with patricians because their interests actually align more with the wealthy, regardless of whether they’re patrician or plebeians, and then you’ve got maybe a sizable group of plebeians who aren’t as economically stable or whatever. Yeah, that might lead to issues in the voting system, which might have been simplified over time. That’s one possible way of looking at it.
Dr G 8:53 For sure, and I think this is the sort of thing where networking and your allegiances through society become one of those things as well. The patricians have a very particular network. And I would say that the plebeians are probably trying to build those kinds of networks, but maybe aren’t necessarily getting themselves across the line with the amount of influence they need for these electoral processes to work out in their favour. Oh,
Dr Rad 9:19 absolutely. And that’s really I think, what this whole suppose and conflict of the orders is all about really, it’s not really about whether you’re patrician and plebeian in a sense, it’s about the level of privilege that you have and the amount of opportunities that are open to you. Hmm,
Dr G 9:34 well, on that note, yeah, not only do we have military attributes with consular power, but I have to assume that something does happen this year. Because we also get a dictator and their companion a master of the horse. So Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus Hmm, possibly a relation of the military tribune with consular power, Publius Cornelius Cossus.
Dr Rad 10:08 Disturbingly similar,
Dr G 10:09 very similar, very similar. It comes into the dictatorship. Now, I’m assuming that you might be able to tell me the story about how and why that will come about. Oh,
Dr Rad 10:22 live, you might have told me a thing or two.
Dr G 10:25 Well, well, well. And he also brings with him one of the military tributes with constellar power, guys. Servilius Ahala, the armpit brings him across from that roll into being his master of the horse, just
Dr Rad 10:41 in case people haven’t listened to that episode, which was a while ago. Now. She’s not just calling this guy in here. It’s not like a horrible slur. That’s what made me that’s
Dr G 10:52 that’s definitely yeah, I’m just running with the Latin guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s put the armpit in power. Sure. Why not?
Dr Rad 11:01 Well, this is interesting, actually. Because I mean, if we go back in time, briefly, Dr. G, it wasn’t Ahala. He was involved in a very dramatic series. I can’t even remember how long ago it was, was it last year? Was it even the year before? I think I think it might have been the year before 2022, that we were talking about the Ahala that really put this family on the math? Yes,
Dr G 11:24 I think it’s around about 439. BCE, or 431, somewhere in there, at least, nearly 20 years ago, by Roman standards, and maybe a couple of years ago by our own.
Dr Rad 11:37 And it kind of makes sense that this family is, you know, starting to creep back into the records a little bit because just to give everyone a very brief overview, the Ahala that we enjoyed talking about so much before, was involved in the scandal around the nacho king of Rome
Dr G 11:54 Spurius Maelius. Yes, yeah,
Dr Rad 11:57 there was this whole issue. To be honest, we couldn’t really figure out what on earth was going on. But it kind of seemed like an attempt by someone who wasn’t from the patrician class to curry favour, or, or he was maybe given power, and the patricians were like, oh, hell, either way, this guy ended up being essentially murdered in broad daylight. And the guy that seems to have done the murdering was Ahala. Well,
Dr G 12:23 and there’s some speculation that he got his name from that moment, because he had gone into the forum with a hidden weapon under his arm.
Dr Rad 12:32 Indeed, indeed. And the upshot of that was that he had to leave room. It’s interesting that he’s, I mean, this isn’t the same guy, obviously.
Dr G 12:43 No, but the family is clearly back. Yes, but yeah, definitely
Dr Rad 12:47 after that whole incident and the leaving of room and that sort of thing. We definitely didn’t mention that name, you know, for a while, but now it’s starting to creep back in a little bit.
Dr G 12:57 Yeah, they’ve returned and they ready to take their place in the top tier of political spots.
Dr Rad 13:03 They have spawned a generation has passed in Roman times.
Dr G 13:07 So what does happen this year? How do we get a dictator please tell me I’ve like I’ve been like tenterhooks of suspense being like, Oh, I got two names.
Dr Rad 13:18 What an excellent question. Well, let’s go back to the elections for a moment, shall we? This question of military Tribune with consular power. So Livy very smugly says that although technically, in 409, the plebs won the battle to have elections for military Tribunes, rather than consuls as you outlined for the various reasons. The patricians were the real winners in the end, because of course, only patricians got elected. Ha, ha, ha. actually knew I need to make that more upper class. Chortle Chorle Chortle.
Dr G 13:50 I was gonna say, I would like you need to be holding a glass of whiskey give me Oh,
Dr Rad 13:54 I definitely am. I sparked up a Cuban. Yeah, so obviously, we have our tribunes he got elected. So the way that the way that this happened, it wasn’t just what we’ve seen before, which is that Livy keeps telling me that, well, sure the plebeians are technically able to elect a fellow clap to this position. But why would they? I mean, how can they be persuaded to do that when there are all these amazing blue blooded candidates standing out there that dazzled by the blue blood, Dr. G, and the diamonds on the soles of their shoes? Well,
Dr G 14:29 Look, I mean, if somebody had diamonds on the soles of their shoes, I would be bamboozled.
Dr Rad 14:33 So instead, what had happened in this particular case, is that the patricians being worried obviously, because of course, they’re probably in getting this position would be the actual end of the world, not just a sign that the end of the world was coming. They and I’m quoting directly here, mix some unworthy competitors with the deserving. So yeah, basically, it was like a ruse to to choose and people that clearly weren’t going to appeal weren’t going to get elected and sort of confuse the voters. So they didn’t, they didn’t just put forward rubbish candidates or like allow rubbish candidates to run. But they made sure that it was confusing enough that a puppy and would not to get elected. Okay,
Dr G 15:19 so you want to stick with the safe bet? You’re like, oh, there’s a lot of names in here. I’m not sure if I know these people. I’m just gonna go with the ones I recognise. I think
Dr Rad 15:30 they actually do know these people. I think they know that these people are crap. And so because I presume I mean, this is where knowing a little bit more about how elections actually work would be helpful, I guess. But I think it’s by mate. Somehow the patricians and I don’t really understand how they did this, but I guess they must have some control over organising the election. I guess they just made sure that all of the plebeians who were running when not great choices. Interesting.
Dr G 16:02 All right. So this would make sense. On some level, I think you’re right to assume that the patricians are largely in charge of organising elections. I think this is a delegated function. How that actually looks right now, in this very early period of the Republic, I don’t think we’re quite sure. But it would make sense for magistrates to organise and lead that and that’s certainly how it develops later on. Yes. Hmm. Interesting.
Dr Rad 16:34 The plebeians aren’t fooled by this entirely. I mean, obviously, they’re full enough, not for beginners. But when I say plebeians, I mean the Iciii. they reenter our story, Dr. G, excellent. Yes. Now the Icilii are a very prominent plebeian family who apparently were like the only people worthy of being named the plebeian side of things last fsra because they tend to pop up in our sauces when there is a particularly big moment or a huge development in terms of patrician plebeian relations taking place. And last episode definitely was what with you know, a plebeian becoming auaestor, and, you know, then all the conflict of the order stuff that ensued as a result of that. Yeah, they do become
Dr G 17:23 synonymous with probably in uprisings and sort of movements and shifts for power from the plebeian side.
Dr Rad 17:33 Yes, but the patricians very carefully had arranged it so that we apparently had three of the Icilii as tribunes of the plebs last episode.
Dr G 17:44 I mean, I don’t know if I believe that, but okay.
Dr Rad 17:49 Yeah, I mean, this is what we’re told that I mean, I like to believe it, because if we don’t believe it, then who’s trailing the senators or the consuls you know, trench coats and spying on them? Yeah, exactly. Which is apparently what happened. But anyway, so the Icilii are aware of what’s going on. But the patricians had made sure that they couldn’t be tribune to the plebs, again, in 408. And they’d also made sure that these particular men couldn’t run to be military Tribune. So they’ve made sure that these very popular plebeian leaders weren’t going to be on the ballot as its were
Dr G 18:30 interesting. Okay. So the capacity for the plebeians to be able to vote in people that they know are effective, that sort of sit within their social mileau is off the table. So not only is the the voting allocation confused, and there’s some weird names in there, but the names that they would want to vote for haven’t made it on?
Dr Rad 18:51 Well, yes, I mean, the Icilii, the Icilians, whatever you want to call them, they certainly strident and they’re not afraid to obviously stand up for puppy and rights, etc. So I think taking them out of the running certainly is a bit of a blow because obviously, they would have pushed for something quite radical, if we’re going with the storyline that we presented with, which is that faces a family trait this runs, you know, throughout all the members of their gens for generations, you know?
Dr G 19:22 Yeah, the Romans are very much into that kind of thing. Like what you pick up through your family line to find your character in many respects.
Dr Rad 19:30 Yes, so they clearly I know what’s going on, but there’s not much that they can do about it at this point in time. Let’s segue now Dr. G. To a rumour that arrives in room External Relations. The Volscians in the Aequians have got back together and apparently stronger than ever. I mean, I feel like I say that every time
Dr G 19:54 they’re back.
Dr Rad 19:56 Yeah, now it’s levy very helpfully tells me that maybe This is related to the fact that we did have the scandal of Carventum that we’ve talked about in the past where there seems to be trading hands between the Romans and their enemies at this point in time. We don’t know where it is, but it’s somewhere in here. And it’s going backwards and forwards like a hot potato. At the moment, the Volsican and I guess some Aequians forces have managed to get that back from Rome. So they are perhaps feeling you know, a bit smug, good about themselves strutting around, you know, or it could be that they are livid Dr. G, because they lost a place called Verrugo. Yes, either way, they’ve got fire under their asses.
Dr G 20:48 Yeah, so we’ve got this situation where we think these places are east of Rome, and sort of SE and sitting on the juncture between what is Roman territory? What is Aequians territory and what is coming up from the south the tip of Volscian territory. So this kind of contested area between the three groups is now hot potatoes. Hitting 408. Yes,
Dr Rad 21:14 definitely. Now, this is where we got another location coming into the story. The people from Look, I’m gonna say is Antiates? Antiastes?
Dr G 21:27 Are they some people from antium? Yeah,
Dr Rad 21:30 I think so. Yeah. The Antiates. The AnTIates.
Dr G 21:36 I’m just gonna say the people from Antium. I’m not gonna try that one.
Dr Rad 21:42 The anti 80s? Yeah. Anti 80s. Yeah, the anti 80s. So they send envoys to the Volscians and Aequians, which basically says this
in case you miss that very subtle explanation. They were calling them chickens. Because they were like how and embarrassment that? Okay, sure. You have Carventum back in your possession. But you did that by remaining behind the walls? Safety. Safety seriously? Where’s the bravery in that? And they allow the Romans to capture Verrugo? All right,
Dr G 22:31 so So you’re telling me that the Volscii and the Aequians are copying some derived version from the people of antium? Is this what’s going on? Okay. All right. antium is sort of directly south of Rome on the bay? Yes, yeah. As you’re heading around towards Campania. So it’s got this kind of section where, if we’re talking about antium, and I think we are Yeah, Rome has had this sort of conflict with the Volscii over time around control of Antium. And they had that moment where they put some settlers in there and stuff like that. But antium is a bit of a live wire, and really just sort of picks and chooses whose side it’s on, depending on what’s going on. And this means that the volsky is getting laughed at by people a little bit to the west, and a little bit to the south. But they’re also facing a situation where they’ve gotten back together with the Aequians. So, you know, there’s some mixed feelings here. They’re feeling bolstered up and strengthened by their renewed friendship with the Aequii, but they’re also feeling a little bit like antium is not respecting them the way that they should. Yes.
Dr Rad 23:41 And I think that they’re concerned. I mean, as we said, there is a bit of a trend happening in Rome at this point in time after being actually kind of a little quiet on the expansion front for actually a number of decades. And is and this would make sense, because we’ve talked about the fact that economically, it seems to be in a bit of a tough time in that sort of middle to late century that we’re in. But at this point in time, as we’re getting more towards the tip into a new century, it does seem like Rome is not just you know, finding people when they have to, or dealing with kind of like territory control, it does seem like they are more interested in actual expansion adding to their territory. And that’s kind of what we’re seeing over time here. And that’s, I think, what people in the air supposedly picking up on as well. So they’re saying, how low Are you not seeing the warning signs, guys? The Romans are clearly just going to keep sending out armies and then once they’ve managed to secure a triumph, they’ll just set up more colonies. And they’re like, did you know that the Romans have got all your stuff? Did you know that they’ve divided it all up? Did you know that they had taken Ferentinum and just given it away to to Hernici, did you know this? Did you know this and the Volscians?
Dr G 25:04 Are you paying attention? Wake up, she
Dr Rad 25:07 Aequians Like, you know what we did know this, because live, he told us.
Dr G 25:13 I read that book. You know what, when you put
Dr Rad 25:15 it like that, and you put it all together, I’m pretty angry, we’re all pretty angry. So the envoys start travelling around and enlisting young men, and people from antium, the Volscians, and the Aequians, all eventually meet up Antium and establish a camp there and then they just sit back and wait for the Romans to arrive.
Dr G 25:44 We just gotta kick out heels back when near the seaside, it’s gonna be nice. It’s gonna be nice.
Dr Rad 25:49 Yeah. Now, as you’ve highlighted, definitely antium It is a place of interest. It has been a while since we have explicitly mentioned it. If listeners want to check out some stuff on our team in the past, please go back to our episode on 459 BC. But it does kind of make sense that there would be potential conflict over this area, as you said, at this point in time, given that it seems like the Romans are making a concerted effort to once and for all, get the Volscians the Aequians out of this area and make sure that their hold on territory in this region is secure, because and it’s obviously it’s part of this narrative that Livy’s constructing because it doesn’t really make sense that the people from antium would potentially be that concerned about like, say, Verrugo, no, I think they’d probably not be concerned about Verrugo at all. Really? No, but it’s obviously being constructed so that we understand why I guess these people are coming together.
Dr G 26:55 Hmm, I think I also before we move on, I’ll offer a small correction on the location of antium. So it is where modern Anzio Yes, so we’re talking a little bit south of Rome, but it’s on the coast, not that far from modern Rome, if you’re driving a car, but like a reasonable March if you’re on foot. So these people historically considered to be a different linguistic group. They’re not Latin speakers necessarily, though, there’s bound to be some of them by now. But this whole sort of area that sort of forms or ring around Roman influence in every direction is starting to come under more pressure. That’s pretty clear. Yes.
Dr Rad 27:36 Yeah. And that’ll make sense because the Volscians in the Aequians are also not Latin peoples either. So yeah, well make sense. So anyway, the room is of course hear about all of this and they are abuzz with the news of what is happening the Senate decide that the fact that three peoples have came to this is clearly an emergency Do many people are against we must Yeah, we can deal with the Volscians and Aequians, but you throw Antium in there. I don’t think so.
Dr G 28:07 Especially after they’ve already gone out of their way to conquer antium at least what they
Dr Rad 28:12 definitely have. antium is definitely meant to be there.
Dr G 28:17 Yes, I’d say Rome sees antium as part of its broader sphere of influence and the idea that antium doesn’t agree is not okay,
Dr Rad 28:26 absolutely. So the Senate decide that because this is an emergency it’s done for a dictator.
Dr G 28:33 Well, that results that narrative quick for me,
Dr Rad 28:36 thank you. However, it doesn’t go as smoothly as the Romans might have been hoping because to the military tribune is decided they didn’t like this decision
Dr G 28:50 is that the two that got left out and weren’t chosen to be master
Dr Rad 28:54 has something to do with a pony. But So Julius and Cornelius okay, they decide to have a right old bitch session about the fact that they’ve just been elected into this premier magistracy and outs being seemingly taken away from them.
Dr G 29:13 I was gonna say it’s all lemons over there for those two years.
Dr Rad 29:17 Their unhappiness was so palpable, that the leading senators complained that the military tribunes were not being very respectful of senatorial control. Rude goodness, hi, nay, oh, dear. So much so that they even turn to the tribune of the plebs, and they say, Hey, would you mind weighing in here and using some of your powers?
Dr G 29:39 I mean, this is a big moment. I’m really sad that I don’t have any narrative material now for the Senate to rock up to the tribune of the plebs behind you. We don’t know who those guys are. So this clearly doesn’t work out very well for them. But what did the Senate think that the tribune of the plebs are going to do? I’m not sure that they necessarily care about this petty infighting amongst patrician le Well,
Dr Rad 30:00 I mean, they can in that they always like to see the patricians divided amongst themselves. In fact, they’re actually ecstatic that the senators are fighting.
Dr G 30:10 I mean, it’s good to see a bit of an internal collapse over there. But
Dr Rad 30:15 you’re right, you’re right in the sense that it doesn’t seem to really be within their remit to deal with
Dr G 30:19 this. I was gonna say so this is not really something that the tribune of the plebs would necessarily deal with. I mean, they’re allowed to sort of step in for plebeian matters. And obviously, they might contentiously make a situation where the patricians aren’t getting along worse by siding with one or the other. Exactly.
Dr Rad 30:39 I mean, there’s this like weird reference to the fact that they’d use their powers before against consuls had gotten out of hand. And I’m like, well, but in what context, like to do with uppity consuls who were causing issues for the plebeians like,
Dr G 30:57 yeah, I was gonna say, generally, it’s an interference on something like the levy, or, you know, turn a turn up when the consuls are giving speeches to be disruptive. I’m not sure how they how the Senate thinks the tribunes are going to support them. It’s
Dr Rad 31:12 one of those moments where like, I had a brass back through and I’m like, I don’t remember what this could possibly be referring to. Unless it’s like something that hasn’t been mentioned, because we have talked about the fact that the tribune of the plebs aren’t always actually on the side of the plebs, or at least, I should say, the dispossessed per year.
Dr G 31:35 Yes, they might be on the side of the very elite. plebeians, who in many respects are indistinguishable from the patricians. So
Dr Rad 31:44 Look, if anybody else has a clear recollection of what an earth LIvy is talking about here, please enlighten me because I couldn’t figure it out. Yeah. Offer a
Dr G 31:52 comment on our website. Tweet us or send us a message on Instagram. Anyway, so
Dr Rad 32:00 apart from getting some popcorn ready, and sitting back to enjoy the show that tribute is refused to have anything to do with this situation. Because they’re like, you know, what? Why should we help people that don’t even think we’re purpose citizens or even human beings as you made very clear last year snap? Yeah. They’re like, maybe, if all the magistracies were just open to anyone, you know, like a patrician could be attributed the class, which actually we have seen. So technically, that’s true. Oh, you know, a plebeian could be a consul and there wasn’t any distinction, then maybe the tribunes would be I don’t know, remotely interested in helping out the Senate here and making sure that the magistrates are doing what they’re supposed to do and behaving. But you know what? That’s fantasy land. Again, as you made very clear in 409, the patricians just do whatever they want. They don’t even care about the laws. And so you know, what the tribunes are going to do whatever the hell they want to, oh, boy.
Dr G 32:58 Okay, so we’ve got a little bit of like chaos rules in Rome, meanwhile, on the fringes of Roman territory of influence, all of their non friends slash neighbours, banding together with some sort of dastardly plan. And
Dr Rad 33:16 so because there’s apparently no help from the tribunes, although dubious, the Romans still very much caught up in the internal drama, even though they’re facing a huge external issue right here. And that’s what they should be focusing on, because Julius and Cornelius are still going on and on and on about how unjust it is that they couldn’t just run the campaign themselves. I mean, hello, it’s in the title, military tribute and with constant power, we were elected to the position. I’m in Hello, they could totally do it, put him up put him
Dr G 33:55 I think this may be indicates that even the patricians did not have confidence in the outcome of this botched election process, where they threw in a whole bunch of names. And they got a whole bunch of people coming out the other side, including and Ahala, who seems to be the only one who’s making it for himself as well, sir. But nobody was expecting that family to make a comeback. And then the other two are like we come from illustrious families. Why are we getting the gig? I can only imagine the dinner table conversation between Publius Cornelius Cossus military Tribune with consular power, and he’s possible cousin of some kind, Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus, who becomes the dictator and just being like, why why would you do this to me? was so close
Dr Rad 34:43 to have my name and could you? Why are you always doing this to me? I hate you. Any anyway, so speaking of Ahala this is where he enters our story. So you might have noticed that he’s been very silent on these matters, even though he is also a military tribune with consular power. If
Dr G 35:01 I assume he only talks by doing armpit movements
it’s just a little a little trumpet going on.
Dr Rad 35:11 Then he finally breaks his silence. And he says, Look, it’s obvious what I think about this situation. Any decent, good. Roman always puts the state ahead of himself. And he was just sitting there, with his head in his hands, hoping that his colleagues would come to their senses. concede to what the Senate has decreed is the best course of action. But now, it’s got to the point where the tribunes of the plebs, the plebs, Dr. G, are being asked to keep them in line, and it’s obviously gone far enough. Oh, Look, I
Dr G 35:51 feel like that’s a very safe and easy position for this man to take considering keys benefited from an upgrade. Shoo, shoo.
Dr Rad 36:01 So Ahala is like, Look, if it was up to me, I would just let them talk themselves out. I wake up to themselves and they’re in good time. But there’s a war on people. This is urgent, hence the dictator situation. And he’s like, I have to put Rome first. And if the Senate thinks that a dictator is the course to take, then a dictator should be chosen that very night,
Dr G 36:28 huh? The drama.
Dr Rad 36:30 Now, of course, everyone is very impressed by this because we know that the Romans cannot help but swoon for someone who allegedly is putting the state before any personal motivations.
Dr G 36:45 Women fainting in the streets, like
Dr Rad 36:48 Oh, in the streets, I think Nefertiti in the privacy of their homes. Now, this I might just add, really ties into a theme that has been detected in this particular section of Levy, which is that of modern Rottier. Yes, just a little side note anyway, so Ahala choosers Publius Cornelius as dictator and then Cornelius says, You know what? Ahala, You’re allright. And therefore, he is chosen to be master the horse because of course, he wants to make a point. The dictator is like you see, power comes to those who don’t actually seek it, which again, is another thing that the Romans cannot get enough of. Yeah,
Dr G 37:33 there’s nothing like the reluctant leader.
Dr Rad 37:35 Honestly, whenever anybody starts going to town on Gladiator. I’m like, You know what? I can’t help but love that movie. Because it is so right. That the hero is like, what me? You want me to do this job? I couldn’t possibly Yeah,
Dr G 37:53 it is embodying some really particular Roman values. Now
Dr Rad 37:58 as it turns out, this whole War and emergency situation was very anticlimactic. It was a very easy battle and it was very quickly over which
Dr G 38:06 where did they end up fighting antium I mean, this is how little little detail I have. Oh, okay, so they they head out to antium do the
Dr Rad 38:15 rally where the people from Antium and the Volscians in the Aequians were just like a now we wait.
Dr G 38:21 We’re just gonna sit here and see what happens next. Oh, no, the Romans turned up. Now
Dr Rad 38:26 the Rome is obviously because they’ve had such an easy battle. They had lots of energy for pillaging and rampaging through Volscian territory. Not only do they manage to steamroll the enemy, but they also apparently managed to capture a fortress at Lake Fucinus.
Dr G 38:44 This is outside the ken of my knowledge.
Dr Rad 38:47 I think this this occasion will come up a bit actually, I remember it because of Agrippina the younger and Claudius having a bit of a thing here later on. We’ll get to that you know 20 or 30 years it stands mentioning that only do they capture a fortress but they also apparently capture 3000 men as their prisoners of war. Yeah,
Dr G 39:07 okay impressive.
Dr Rad 39:09 Yeah. The remainder of the of the enemies just try and hide behind city walls where they can and just really leave that territory to the Romans I was like yeah, we’re not gonna we’re not gonna stop you
Dr G 39:20 All right, so a resounding victory for row
Dr Rad 39:22 it is now that geography is a little off again. So it doesn’t 100% seem to add up if you just like looking at naps, etc. Yeah,
Dr G 39:35 I was gonna say I’m like one why the Aequians all the way over in antium for instance,
Dr Rad 39:40 because the Antiates called them chicken.
Dr G 39:42 Well, it’s true. Anytime somebody calls me the chicken I immediately go over to where they are like OI.
Dr Rad 39:50 If Back to the Future has taught us nothing, it’s that calling someone a chicken is the worst thing that you can do it but it doesn’t entirely make sense that why, winning at Antium, the Romans would be like with capture that fort by the Fucine Lake.
Dr G 40:05 the Fucine Lake, the Lago Fucino it says that it’s going to be in Abruzzo? So, which is the region that is sort of next to and south of Lazio?
Right. Right. Right.
But the trouble with that is that still seems like it’s too far away from where we are. Right?
Dr Rad 40:28 Exactly. It does seem to be too far away. And given that Verrugo, and Carventum seem to be about Latium, the geography. Yeah, I would expect that like to be somewhere nearby as well. Yeah, exactly. It just doesn’t entirely add up in the account that we’ve got here. It may be because Livy is using a different source material, or at least he’s in transition with his source material, and therefore, is trying to pull various things together, or he’s been following one source for some period of time, and now he’s switched to another source. And therefore, the details are kind of contradicting themselves. And this is the kind of stuff that people cite when they say, That lady is not a great historian, because he’s not necessarily stopping and thinking in himself. Wait a second.
Dr G 41:20 Yeah, Look, I mean, if you’ve only got three books to read, they’re all good books. Well, I
Dr Rad 41:24 mean, for example, I think we have got to this part so far. So I’m going to mention it. There has been a point where, where Livy’s is, obviously labour, the fact that the patricians are wealthy because of the land that they control and own all that kind of stuff. But in another part of his narrative, he talks about the patricians being able to like rock up with waggons, full of bronze. So you know, just a few things here. We’re like, I don’t know if this is all applicable to this time period. I don’t know if this all makes sense. It we can’t be sure, obviously, of what’s going on. But yeah, they’re just like little things like that, where it seems to be, you know, maybe a bit of confusion in terms of the details that he’s got here. Well,
Dr G 42:05 and fair enough. I mean, he’s dealing with a period that’s well before his own time, the source material is bound to be quite limited. And I don’t know about the process of authorship either. Like, generally speaking, we understand that writers like Livy are probably not putting pen to paper themselves. They’re probably dictating to somebody who writes it down.
Dr Rad 42:29 A young woman with spectacles. Yes.
Dr G 42:33 And she’s doing shorthand the whole time. But to what extent they might go back and read over the things that they dictate. Yes, exactly, exactly. I don’t know, like, what are the processes like within that? So there’s lots that we don’t know, which might explain some of the sort of changes in details and the odd anomalies that come through that wouldn’t fly with a publisher nowadays? Yes,
Dr Rad 42:57 exactly. Exactly. We can’t help them to the same status, because what they’re doing is inherently more difficult than typing something up. That
Dr G 43:03 is true. So are there any more events in this year from Livy’s? Perspective? Okay. All right. Okay. I will, I will hold tight on my little clump of
Dr Rad 43:17 detail. So obviously, after Yeah, after all the raping and pillaging and all that kind of stuff. The Dictator heads back to Rome. I mean, he was hardly in charge. Dr. G. It was a blink of an eye really, after all this fuss, and he resigned his position as any good day dictator would do. Now, there was nothing said about what was going to happen the next year, as in, we’re going to have military tribunes. Oh, we’re going to have consuls it just goes straight to an election for military tributes, which is interesting, given all the concern, you know, that was, has been exhibited, historically, by the patricians over this particular type of election. Livy is wondering if maybe it’s because there has been a dictator I’m not really sure if that’s like, I don’t know, mess with people’s heads or something like that. But the patricians are certainly worried they like are all patricians on board here. Shouldn’t we be worried about this? The whole tribune of the plebs thing, and this year, that seems concerning. I feel like we’re not a unified force anymore guys.
Dr G 44:28 Rome is politically falling apart. So
Dr Rad 44:31 as in the election for the year that we’re currently in, they make sure that the worst plebeians are chosen to run alongside some worthwhile ones, to make the people hate the plebeian candidates as a whole, and then only chose the very, very best people to run from the Senate and patrician, who live he lumps in as being like one group basically. And therefore, spoilers. We’re going to have all patricians for the next year as well. out. But also people that had also served as military tributes before, which might say something about their family, you know, being on the rise. But it might also say something about this, you know, combative, aggressive expansion kind of place we seem to be in right now.
Dr G 45:19 Yeah, I think this tells us something about what is going on with Rome and her neighbours at this point in time that they’ve decided that they need more people who can command armies, although they did make an interesting choice this year to just subsume all of those into a dictator. Yes. Okay. So I don’t have any details to do with anything to do. Sad, sad news. I have Diodorus Siculus. Great. And he gives us the names of the military treatments with consular power. And they’re
Dr Rad 45:51 all correct. Well, girls, for you Deidara.
Dr G 45:56 Nice work Diodorus. Now, he places these events in around 405 to 404 BCE, which makes sense because he’s chronology is running at a slightly different pace to be Roman chronology for these things are a few years out, and that’s fine. But this means that we’re in the last phase of the Peloponnesian War. So to put the broader situation of Rome in its Mediterranean global context, the Peloponnesian War is in its final phase, it’s about to wrap up. And things are still holding up in Sicily as well, with the Carthaginians. So they’ve done some raising of some cities, they’ve jumped in there. And they’re, they’re still sort of milling about people in Sicily, which are mostly Greek settlers at this point in time, and like the Carthaginians, North Africa. So there’s a lot of that going on. And then part of what Carthage decides to do. And this might tell us something about their reach in this period of history. They decide to embark whilst they’re also having this conflict in Sicily to embark on another campaign against this Gideons which are nowhere near Sicily,
Dr Rad 47:08 I was going to say that seems random. It
Dr G 47:12 does on the face of it. But then I think about Carthage as being one of these Punic colony settlements. And so the Punic peoples in general, and the North Africans are a very seafaring group of people in this period of history. That’s how they do all of their trade. They’re very much interested in being all across the Mediterranean and as far as they understand it. So Scythia is going to be around Greece, keep going up, get to the top of that part of the Mediterranean, which is going to be near where we have modern Istanbul, for instance. And that kind of region to the to the north, and to the west of that is going to be ancient skills. Yes. So they embark on this sort of quest, like a war on two fronts , two Naval fronts? Why not, we’re Carthaginians, we could do it. And while, that’s going on. The Sicilian Greeks get together with the Libyans, another group of North Africans and the Iberians, who are the coastal people in the Spanish peninsula, and they decide to then also get involved in this Scythian conflict, to try and sail behind the Carthaginians and just create disturbances for them to ruin their supply chains and things like this. So while Rome is very near actually placed, fighting it out with their very close neighbours trying to figure out who they are and how they’re going to run themselves. And it always sounds like at this point in time, Rome is on the brink of a really big collapse where it doesn’t get it together in time, and will get overrun by everybody around them. The broader peoples in the Mediterranean are doing lots of big things. The Peloponnesian War is huge. What the Carthaginians are doing, if we believe Diodorus Siculus, with their multiple naval fronts is massive in terms of its undertaking. Yeah. So Rome is a really small player right now on this Mediterranean stage.
Dr Rad 49:16 It definitely is. And on that note, Dr. G, I think it might be time for the partial pick.
All right, Dr. J, tell us what is the partial picker that
Dr G 49:32 the partial pick, we are going to write Rome by its own standards spoilered I think it’s going to do great. And there are five categories of which they can gain a maximum of 10 Golden Eagles. So for a total of a possible 50 Gold eagles, which would mean Rome is at the height of all of its powers. We will see how they do this time round for the year 408 BC to
Dr Rad 49:59 tell me Dr G, What’s our first category?
Dr G 50:02 Well, first of all, we have military clout. How well have the Romans equip themselves in battle? I always
Dr Rad 50:09 say, like pretty well, according to this. I mean, it’s certainly not like the best battle because we don’t get any details. And it apparently was really easy for them. So I’m not sure I want to give them too much credit. But
Dr G 50:21 well, that might be a sign that they’re great. Well, yeah, no, that’s
Dr Rad 50:25 what I mean. Like, sure. I’ll give them something but like, I don’t want to go really any higher than like, I think a seven or an eight. Because it seems okay. Just seems too easy.
Dr G 50:35 They did also take what 3000 people captive, that’s a huge number and
Dr Rad 50:39 allegedly captured a fort, although, who the hell knows?
Dr G 50:42 We don’t know where it is. We’re not sure
Dr Rad 50:45 we know. We know where it is. But it just doesn’t seem to quite make sense. So I’m not sure if this narrative entirely adds up. All right,
Dr G 50:54 well, let’s say a seven is pretty impressive. Yes. We don’t get any of the dramatic details, which would make it even more impressive.
Dr Rad 51:03 I’ve gotta I’ve gotta hold it back for when we get those really impressive ones. Yeah.
Dr G 51:07 Yeah. Okay. Our second category is diplomacy. negotiation?
Dr Rad 51:12 Well, as we always say, I don’t know that you have much of that going on. When you’re at war,
Dr G 51:19 I don’t think they asked antium to stand down. We didn’t get a narrative where they sent any embassy out to be like, Guys, have you considered
Dr Rad 51:27 exactly not doing that? And internally, they’re also not doing great. So I think I’m gonna give it a zero. Actually.
Dr G 51:35 I agree. Expansion. Well, okay.
Dr Rad 51:38 I mean, we have got some capturing, you know, happening here, control team, you know,
Dr G 51:44 yes. But does that count as expansion? It wasn’t necessarily clear that they decided to reestablish some sort of colonial outpost in and
Dr Rad 51:56 this is the thing I feel like, I feel like the implication of the narrative is that they they’ve had a relationship with this place in the past. And I feel like this is really like, reestablishing that they are, in fact, in control of this area.
Dr G 52:12 Yeah. All right. Give them a one for that.
Dr Rad 52:15 Way. What about this apparent fought apparent for it?
Dr G 52:19 Where is it? You know,
Dr Rad 52:20 how big is that? Well, it’s a few saying, like, I don’t know how big it is.
Dr G 52:25 I mean, to feel like we should give them a two Yeah. To the fourth category is weird to us. Not really.
Dr Rad 52:33 I mean, you know, Ahala has a moment but it’s more speechifying kind of moment. Sometimes. speechifying can be weird. It is but I don’t feel like it’s that grand a speech, you know? No.
Dr G 52:45 And it doesn’t have any of those sort of classic. We’re tourists kind of elements to it, of like displaying wounds and things like this and and then we’ve definitely got the other two military Tribune’s who don’t quit themselves, well, it’s sort of like, they’re kind of just like whinging a little bit about their situation.
Dr Rad 53:06 Even Livy’s says the dictator kind of had a very easy time. He was like, Yeah, you know, he’s actually probably kind of lucky, he didn’t really face any major action just got to return home alive.
Dr G 53:16 You know, quietly. Nice, nice. All right. So
Dr Rad 53:20 I think also is a Zero. All right.
Dr G 53:24 And the final category is the citizen score. Look,
Dr Rad 53:27 it’s not the worst we’ve ever seen. But again, I don’t feel like it’s a great time to be a citizen because there is still this conflict of the orders stuff nagging away, they’re, you know, they’re not get able to get any pavilions into power, not that a citizen is a plebeian. But to be honest, we’ve actually kind of treated it that way.
Dr G 53:50 Well, and also the way that these elections are described by Livy as unfolding with a deliberate sort of confusion in order to create a particular outcome. I think that’s in a way that’s a dishonest approach to the citizen body.
Dr Rad 54:08 Yeah, well, that is an identity again, they’ve done it twice. Yeah,
Dr G 54:13 how dare they?
Dr Rad 54:14 Yeah. And so I mean, Look, the war is not the worst, it doesn’t sound like lots of Romans died, there is no fight against the levy,
Dr G 54:22 I think maybe a five then so like, on the balance, it’s not well, it’s it’s not terrible, but it’s not great. It’s kind of just like the halfway house with like, you know, what this person calls to being a citizen around?
Dr Rad 54:35 sure that that’s how we’ve given citizens scores.
Dr G 54:40 I’m allowed to change my mind.
Dr Rad 54:42 Sure. Look, I still feel like it’s got to be weighted on the downside because of the election thing. Like, I don’t you mean, like it’s not the worst, but I feel like it’s still not great. I would be more inclined to give a three How about we cut it in half and go for four years and that’s why I said three All right, Dr. G, that means that we have wound up with the Romans on a grand total of 13 out of 50 possible Golden Eagles
Dr G 55:12 13 Oh, well, that’s unlucky. But
Dr Rad 55:16 I think it’s because our rating system is quite frankly, all over the place.
Dr G 55:22 I Look, I mean, I, it depends on how I feel on the day. I don’t claim to be consistent and Rome is always changing. So
Dr Rad 55:31 it’s true. All right. Well, I Look forward to seeing how this whole you know election fraud. I get that it’s not that but I Look forward to seeing how this election strategy plays out and 407 BCE. Looking
Dr G 55:43 forward to it. I’ll catch you soon Hi.
Dr Rad 55:54 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today we would like to say a special Salve to Arne, Sally, Desmond, Lisa and Peep, some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you so much guys for your support. However, if you’ve just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for a book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Roman Naming Conventions
Jan 04, 2024
It’s here! We delve into the wonderful world of Roman names. How do we understand who’s who? How did the Romans understand who was who? We’re here to consider the complexities of Roman naming conventions.
Special Episode – Roman Naming Conventions
We look into some of the key elements of the Roman naming conventions of the Republic and the Early Imperial period. This includes the praenomen (the first name), the nomen (a reference to the clan or gens that the person came from), the cognomen (this name could have a variety of meanings!), and the agnomen (nickname).
This is by no means the extent of types of names that Romans deployed over the course of their history, but it’s a good start on some of the tricky bits including why Roman loved repeating themselves.
We look at some very interesting examples included:
Romulus
Numa Pompilius
Livia’s dad
Augustus
And a certain Spartacus may also get a mention
Is that Augustus with a bunch of fancy titles? Oh yeah. This comes from a statue base in Rome.
[I]mp(eratori) Caesari / divi f(ilio) Augusto / pont(i)f(ici) maxim(o) / trib(unicia) potest(ate) XXXVII / co(n)s(uli) XIII p(atri) p(atriae) sacrum
This is sacred to Imperator Caesar Augustus, son of Divine, pontifex maximus, holding tribunician power for the 37th time, consul for the 13th time, father of fatherland.
Naming conventions differed depending on who you were, the family you were born into, and what happened to you during the course of your life. Elite families had specific naming conventions, while different rules applied to enslaved people and those who were manumitted.
Got famous for all the wrong reasons? You probably had one or more unflattering nicknames.
Got famous for all the right reasons (according to Romans)? You likely had a name to recognise your superlative achievements.
Interested in our favourite Roman name so far? It’s none other than Spurius Furius! There’s been a few gentlemen with this name, but for a real blast from the past, check out Episode 91 – The Furious Romans.
Sources
Brill’s New Pauly entries on the Praenomen, Gens, Cognomen, Agnomen, and Personal Names: Rome
Edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:16 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:54 Hello, and welcome to this very special episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:03 And I am Dr. Rad. But what does that mean Dr. G?
Dr G 1:08 What is in a name? Would a rose by any other name would smell as sweet?
Dr Rad 1:14 One of us had to go there.
Dr G 1:17 It didn’t take long for this to fall down into a big heap did it? Roman names. That’s what we’re going to be talking about today.
Dr Rad 1:23 We are this is a special Patreon listener request. And you know what? It is about bloody time that we talk about names because God knows we trip over them all the time.
Dr G 1:37 Look, there’s nothing like a Latin name to really wake up the tongue when you’re trying to get all of your announced creation happening on a podcast about ancient Roman history.
Dr Rad 1:46 Yeah, I think my favorite one which always looks really daunting on the page is Tricipitinus or Tri-cip-itinus.
Dr G 1:54 Yeah, stay right away from that.
Dr Rad 1:57 So the Romans are known for having seemingly bizarre naming conventions where a lot of men are named the same thing, which makes things very confusing. And they also have seemingly very long and phonetically challenging names. So we thought it is a good idea to talk about this because it’s actually there’s actually so much more to it, I suppose there might first meet the eye and like an episode where we’re just rattling off console names and that kind of thing. Indeed,
Dr G 2:27 and I think I’d like to start I’d like to take us right back to the beginning the very early days of Rome just to sort of set the scene a little bit back in the olden dear listeners, welcome to The Land Before Time.
Dr Rad 2:45 A tale as old as time. Okay, the scene is set.
Dr G 2:52 Rome was open fields ruled by kings
Dr Rad 2:56 Houses were built out of mud.
Dr G 3:00 It was a beautiful time, a time of peace and prosperity.
Dr Rad 3:04 I actually just realized that most of the time the houses were built out of mud.
Dr G 3:08 Yeah, it makes sense. So the Roman kings have names right? So we’ve got guys like Numa Pompilius, and we’ve got Tullus Hostilius. And these are like precursor names. This is kind of like the first type of naming convention and Rome has to move away from it pretty quickly. Because it gets bigger, its population expands and they need to differentiate in more complex ways.
Dr Rad 3:33 Yeah,
Dr G 3:34 This initial naming system. Sorry
Dr Rad 3:36 No no no, sorry. I was gonna say, yeah, cause like the most famous part obviously, of rumoured names that most people know about is the three names. That man supposedly have the tria-nomina, which belongs to elite men. But right back at the beginning, it was not tria.
Dr G 3:52 It was not no, no. Sometimes it was just one. Romulus is just Romulus-
Dr Rad 3:59 He’s a bastard!
Dr G 4:02 We know nothing about him his name, definitely. Because how did you get in charge of anything?
Dr Rad 4:09 Outrageous.
Dr G 4:11 And then we’ve got these guys like Numa, who have two names. Numa Pompilius-
Dr Rad 4:15 Getting more complicated
Dr G 4:16 And this follows. Yeah, it does get more complicated. So this is where they use a patronymic naming approach, which is pretty common, and you see it in a lot of ancient cultures. It’s a very Indo-European thing to do, where the second name lets you know, who Numa is the son of. So the patriarchy is kind of like a little bit baked in already. So Numa is his praenomen – and that’s his first name. It’s probably what people call him. But he was the son of a guy called Pompeius. Which is cute. So we’ve got this -ilius suffix, which indicates “son of”.
Dr Rad 4:51 Right, okay. And the weird thing about the Romans, I suppose, is that the praenomen, which is like his personal name, There’s not really a lot of them. Yeah, at least when we look back over the evidence, you know, not compared to nowadays where we probably put a lot of emphasis on what is that first name so much so that there are people who do just have one name like Madonna, Cher. Beyonce. Just me. I know they got one of them. I know. But you know what I mean? We put so much emphasis-. Yeah.
Dr G 5:22 Where somebody more regal is always known by their two names. Taylor Swift.
Dr Rad 5:27 Ooooooo wait wait, wait, wait, wait wait wait. Are you saying that Taylor Swift is more regal than Cher Madonna and Beyonce?
Dr G 5:36 I’m not. I’m literally just like nobody ever refers to just by her first name. They always call her Taylor Swift. I don’t know why.
Dr Rad 5:43 No no, that’s true. It’s the same as like Kim Kardashian. But I think that’s because it’s Alliterative.
Dr G 5:48 Mmm that does not explain Taylor Swift at all. No. Moving away from that. Yeah. So the names get more complicated as time goes on. And the praenomen. First of all, it expands out a lot. We get heaps of praenomens in the early period of Rome’s, sort of naming convention period, the early republic, yeah. And then it sends to really narrow back in again, by the time we get to the late Republic, definitely. So this tells us something about how the significance of names changes over time, and also the potential for that name to be distinguishing changes over time as well.
Dr Rad 6:24 Well, definitely, because I think that if we look at around the first century AD, whilst we have uncovered quite a few of these praenomen there’s really only between sort of 15 and 30 that are probably used with any sort of regularity. By the time you get to like the late Republic.
Dr G 6:44 Yeah, if you’re not a Gaius, and you’re not a Marcus, who even are you?
Dr Rad 6:47 I know. A Publius? Don’t me laugh!
Dr G 6:50 No gross, the whole name is a joke. So this trinomina is the combination of the praenomen (the first name), the nomen (which is the gens name, the clan that the person comes from) And there’s the cognomen, which could be any kind of additional name, really. So it could be a personal name, it could be a nickname, or it could be a branch of your gens. So the family – the specific family within your gens.
Dr Rad 7:23 yeah. And it kind of makes sense that they ended up adding on a cognomen because of course, as you get more and more people, it helps to set them apart more, it distinguishes them more, and it tells you obviously more about where they’re from potentially or something about them or their family. That’s kind of the whole purpose of these names. Right.
Dr G 7:42 Exactly. And so you might have somebody who is known as Publius Cornelius Scipio, for instance. Publius is his first name, you know, it’s a bit of a diamond a dozen. He comes from the Cornelius gens. So that’s his nomen. And Scipio is the family branch within the Cornelii And that might be his three names. Now, unfortunately, that branch of the family ends up being massive. So you’ve got Publius Cornelius Scipio, a number of times and Roman historians get confused. But that’s kind of the gist of it. You’ve got those three names. Now that guy is probably somebody who’s coming up in the middle Republic, one of the most famous of the Cornelius Scipione’s is Africanus.
Dr Rad 8:31 I was gonna say, I was waiting for it.
Dr G 8:34 He’s coming, he’s coming.
Dr Rad 8:36 It’s gonna take a lot to take me away from you.
Dr G 8:41 So Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus has got four names. Wowzers.
Dr Rad 8:48 Well, you guess the thing you can just keep adding, if you really need you can
Dr G 8:51 Yeah, well, he doesn’t necessarily add this one himself. So that last one Africanus known as an agnomen, which is an honorific name that is given to you by other people for something great that you do.
Dr Rad 9:06 That is pretty cool. I must admit of all the Roman naming conventions. I kind of wish that we still practice that.
Dr G 9:14 So like our key example from I think the early republic, who we did many episodes on, is Gnaeus or Gaius Marcius (nomen) Coriolanus (agnomen) Because he gets that name after the siege of Corioli, the Volscian and city.
Dr Rad 9:33 Yeah, absolutely. And it’s probably interesting to note, I suppose that when these names are developing, they start off having certain meanings as well. Like the praenomens that we are dealing with, particularly in the early republic, they do have interesting names, which I actually had not thought about up until this. So so Marcus, one of our most common ones, probably originated because someone was a born in March so it used it you might have signified something about like when you were born. And and, for example, Manlius. It might have signified that you were born in the morning for manes.
Dr G 10:10 Okay, oh, that’s cute. Like Septimius Yeah, born in the seventh month, or Tiberius, who is known, named after the river god. So Marcus could also be a declaration of the gods Mars.
Dr Rad 10:23 Yeah, exactly. And so originally, these praenomens also had probably meanings probably to parents, I would say. But as we move on in time, and then that would have been probably very early on as we move on in time, I don’t think that they tend to pick those for those particular reasons. The only one I think that might still have some meaning later on is the habit of numbering.
Dr G 10:47 Oh, yeah, yeah. But they don’t usually use those for praenomens, necessarily, although sometimes – Quintus is a good one.
Dr Rad 10:55 Yeah,
Dr G 10:56 number five,
Dr Rad 10:57 exactly.
Dr G 10:57 Decimus, number 10. And some of them also come from different sort of language extractions. So Spurius, we think comes from Etruscan language. So it comes into Latin as Spurius. But it comes from the Etruscan ‘Spura’ to mean community.
Dr Rad 11:17 Very nice. Now, when it comes to the nomen, Dr. G, this is probably the most important in terms of indicating your gens, right? When it comes to political life in the republic that we’re going to be focusing on today, just because it gets too complicated. As time goes on, to carry on. Names continue to evolve the, um, the Republic, but we’re starting with the origins.
Dr G 11:41 So yeah, the origin story of the gens. So as Rome’s history is starting to flourish. So we’ve been looking very much at the early republic, in our founding of the city series, the gens becomes their sort of primary mechanism for establishing your place in Rome’s hierarchy. Yeah. So even if Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Livy, and our other sources are sort of imposing this struggle of the orders a little bit on to this period of time, it’s probably still the case that your gens – the family from which you derive- is a super important element of who you are, what your politics is going to be, and how you participate in ritual practice as well.
Dr Rad 12:34 Definitely.
Dr G 12:36 So this is part of the broader Roman understanding of patriarchy as well. So the gens name comes from the original ancestor, if you like, of the family. So it doesn’t take long for that sort of ancestral connection to be enough generations back that people don’t know who that person is anymore. It’s just a name. And also, that it’s a little bit murky enough, that if you’re really in straights, about what to do with your life, you might start to lie about where your family came from,
Dr Rad 13:12 Scandalous!
Dr G 13:14 It is illegal, the Romans don’t like that. They try to crack down on that. So if you’ve just pop up out of nowhere with a new name, that’s going to be very suspicious. But for people who are trying to figure out where they fit in the mix of things, if they’ve got a few obscure family connections, and they’re not really quite sure, there is a reasonable and plausible moment where you might be like, oh, yeah, no, I’m a Cornelii, obviously, just makes so much sense.
Dr Rad 13:43 Yeah, and it’s so interesting, because again, if you go back to the origins, again, some of these probably had obviously, particular meaning something to do with that particular family. And it could be something to do with where they are geographically located. Once upon a time as you say, it might be to do with an ancestor. It might even be to do with some sort of like agricultural thing, you know, if you think about like the origins of Roman society, so for example, we often talk about the fabulous Fabians. Fabius might come from ‘faba’ as in bean, which you might have with a nice chianti.
Dr G 14:22 A delicious Fabian, that’s what I like to hear
Dr Rad 14:26 It sounds a lot less fabulous. When you go back to the origins of it
It does explain why they’re so full of fiber.
Oh, yes. And, and as we said, with the praenomens as well, originally, there were fewer of these gens and then gradually it expands until there are lots like when we’re talking about the early republic, our listeners, I’m sure have noticed that we keep going back to very similar gens. Most of the time when we’re talking about people who are holding high office and that sort of thing is a bit of a repeat repeat thing going on with some of those families.
Dr G 15:01 Yeah, we have quite a few very well known genses (gentes) in the early republic. So the Aemilii, the Claudii, the Cornelii, the Fabii, the Manlii and the Valerii are real standout families that continue to dominate the politics of the early republic if our following the records that we’ve got of consuls, and military tribunes and so forth.
Dr Rad 15:29 Absolutely. Now we move on to cognomens, Dr G. So we’ve definitely been coming across a lot of those, it’s pretty common by the time you get to our period, which is still early republic, but the period we’re looking at the moment is, we’re very close to getting to 400 BCE, right. And pretty much everyone that we talk about who holds an important office tends to have a cognomen and not every single person we talk about has one, but a lot of them do. But when we get into more reliable times where the records are a bit, you know, bit better sort of late, mid to late Republic, I’d say. It becomes way more common, as you said, for people to have two of these subsequent names. So it might two cognomen. Or you might want to say it’s a cognomen and an agnomen. And so you see, like, as time goes on, again, like the names just get more complicated, and people add more on to them.
Dr G 16:21 They certainly do. So this idea of for cognomen, this additional name, and it extends out to even being able to have not just one, but eventually also to so you can just kind of keep building if you like as you need to, to let people know what your family lineage is. So some of the ones that are going to crop up in the middle Republic when we get to it a names like Dolabella, Scipio, Lentulus, Sulla, Cinna, all of these names are probably in isolation familiar to you, if you’re interested in Roman history anyway, because some of these names go on to be quite famous. Yeah, but they’re actually all of those are examples of a cognomen. That is part of a branch of a bigger gens.
Dr Rad 17:12 Yes, yes.
Dr G 17:13 So all of those names are examples of cognomen that go with the Cornelii gens. It’s always going to be Cornelius Dolabella, Cornelius Scipio, Cornelius Lentulus, Cornelius Sulla, Cornelius Cinna. These guys, they’re everywhere.
Dr Rad 17:32 And is that one of the interesting things particularly again, in the earlier periods is that these cognomens, they might have originated obviously some sort of like nickname or something to distinguish that branch of the family. And they’re not always the most positive names that you could come up with. So for example, we’ve got Cincinnatus who someone we’ve talked about before, which we think means “curly hair”. Now that’s probably not really like I suppose a negative thing, although, as someone who has curly hair, I struggle with that on a daily basis. So I guess I interpreted that way. But also-
Dr G 18:06 It’s a super cute name, though, like, think of the reputation that that family has throughout the history of robes, early Republic, and everybody’s just like, why don’t we go and talk to Curly Hair over there?
Dr Rad 18:16 That’s true. And then of course, Brutus is a name that we’ve definitely mentioned before, and even when we were talking about it, we explained that it meant “stupid”, which is not the best nickname.
Dr G 18:30 Definitely not as nice as a cognomen, like Faustus which you might think has negative connotations, but that’s much later and not ancient it. It has really positive connotations in the ancient world Faustus means “fortunate, auspicious, lucky”. So you have a little baby and you’re like, it’s just so Faustus!
Dr Rad 18:50 I’m going to throw in another couple that you that are a bit more negative Galba. Galba who we will get to eventually. I mean, actually, we have talked about it. And but that was, you know, back in the day. Galba means “fat belly”.
Dr G 19:05 Hmmm. Does it sound appropriate? I think it does.
Dr Rad 19:10 Crassus also means “fat”. Another guy we’ve talked about is Scaevola. And that obviously has to do with the hand incident. Okay, where he like punches his right hand into the fire and then he’s like known as “the left hander”. And then of course, we’ve got my personal favorite, which we haven’t come to yet, because it sounds rude but it’s not really Cunctator: “Ditherer”.
Dr G 19:35 Which means?
Dr Rad 19:36 Ditherer.
Dr G 19:39 We’ve also got things like Cato “smart guy”. And Blaesus, “the stammer” and things that are a little bit more descriptive and maybe a bit more boring things like Pictor “the artist” and Sura – I think you’re gonna like this one – “the man with the striking calf”.
Dr Rad 20:01 Whaat? That from two syllables?
Dr G 20:08 Look, that’s all you need when you’ve got, like, he walks past me like, “Mmm that’s a Sura right there.”
Dr Rad 20:16 Hilarious. Now of course, these nicknames could also be attached because of, again, some sort of like geographic connection with the family. It could also spring up because of some sort of office or something that you hold. Okay, so for example, you might get the name Flaminia. Just because you held the position of say Flamen Dialis, which is like a priesthood.
Dr G 20:41 Yeah, yeah. And you might be called Censorinus because you were twice censor.
Dr Rad 20:49 Yes. And Cicero’s friend who most people would know, just as Atticus. He got that name because he really loved Greek culture and spent quite a bit of time in Athens.
Dr G 21:01 Ah, the old Attica. Well, this also helps us with names like the king. Lucius Tarquinius. Priscus, who is letting us know that he has an origin story. He’s got this connection with Tarquinii. Yeah, this other city elsewhere. Although, if we’re sticking with Priscus for a moment, he’s a little bit unusual, because that Priscus name is something that’s given to him much later than when he’s alive. Priscus means kind of ancient, renowned, and doesn’t seem like the sort of name that you would add to anybody who was still alive.
Dr Rad 21:42 Maybe he was an old soul. So I guess-
Dr G 21:48 And then ee’ve got like, you know, cute things like Rufus
Dr Rad 21:52 Red hair.
Dr G 21:53 Red. Yeah. Cossus Wait for it. I like Cossus because we deal with Cossus – Cossus people a lot. The consul of 413 BCE was Aulus or Marcus Cornelius Cossus.
Dr Rad 22:09 Right.
Dr G 22:10 And Cossus means “the lavae that lives under the bark of trees”.
Dr Rad 22:14 Oh my god. Okay, I honestly like, first of all, I’m not even gonna ask how that one word leads to all of that. But how on earth would that come to be associated with a person? What is he like? A tree hugger? Like what does that mean?
Dr G 22:31 I think he’s a little bit wormy.
Dr Rad 22:33 Yeah, that’s weird, man.
I don’t know.
Wild.
Dr G 22:36 Maybe there is something something slimy about him.
Dr Rad 22:41 So, when we’re talking about these names, I think it seems like the Romans are very unimaginative. And that these names are super unhelpful. But when you start to unpack them, you actually realize that no, no, they’re trying to give a really clear idea of where someone’s from, what is their family name, that’s going to give you a bit of an indication eventually about where they belong in this society, their rank, and that sort of thing. And certain families will become obviously better known than others. And that really matters in a place like Rome. And the names continue to evolve. And they get more complicated as the society does, they actually reveal a lot. It’s not that it’s just that we didn’t have the full map, I suppose. We’re trying to figure it all out from it from a distance.
Dr G 23:27 Yeah, that’s true. And so to take things right back to the way that the kings were sometimes using that patronymic element to that nature, that reference back to the father does creep back in in a different form, as Roman names get a little bit more complicated, right? So as families grow, so your clan group grows, grows enough that you need to have these branches of the family within the gens, then you might also need to have a distinction about where in the branch you sit, for instance, and so the idea of having the filiation comes back in, so we have things like, Lucius Valerius – son of Lucius, grandson of Publius – Potitus. So this guy was a military tribute with consular power in 414 BCE.
Dr Rad 24:26 Right.
Dr G 24:26 So we’ve talked about this guy before. And he’s letting you know, not just that he has this praenomen Lucius, that he comes from the gens, the Valerii, but he is also the first son of the father Lucius because they’ve got the same name. So there’s a pattern to be drawn there. And his father was not the first son of the grandfather Publius. And then he has his cognomen as well Potitus. So the specific branch within and so they’re really trying to narrow down. So you can precisely locate where somebody sits in the overall hierarchy have anything to do with Romans public understanding of themselves. And it’s like you should be able to position him straightaway. And I suspect that in day to day life, everybody would have had a nickname.
Dr Rad 24:26 Yeah,
Dr G 24:26 That’s my suspicion.
Dr Rad 24:27 Oh for sure
Dr G 24:35 Because this is the sort of thing where it’s like, this is your official name for official documents. And if you have the honor of getting yourself onto an inscription somewhere, obviously, you have to use your real name because it’s super important for family business. But in day to day life, I don’t think people are in the street, seeing somebody across the way and being like, Lucius Valerius, son of Lucius, grandson of Publius Potitus. Like, you know, just like to get their attention. I don’t think that just seems completely unreasonable. Everybody, I think would have had a nickname anyway, that they probably picked up in childhood. And that becomes their, the way of distinguishing them in day to day life.
Dr Rad 26:00 Absolutely. And I think it probably very much like in our society, it depends on your level of familiarity, as to which name you might be using to address these people. So I would imagine that you’d have to be relatively familiar with an elite Roman man to be calling him by his praenomen. And if that’s what ever is, that’s what his family, for example, calls in just the same way that I wouldn’t necessarily go up to you and say, “Hey, Peta,” I would say, “Hey, Dr. G,” becasue we’re on formal terms.
Dr G 26:31 And we shall never depart from such formality.
Dr Rad 26:34 Exactly. Exactly. We always have to use titles because I hardly know you!
You’ll always be Dr Rad in my heart. We don’t know each other at all. It’d be insane to use our first names with each other.
Yeah, just like when you you know, as a child, you first meet an adult or like your teacher or something, you’re going to call them, you know, Miss so-and-so. You’re not going to say, “Hey, Sally, trying to figure out my coloring over here. Can you get some help?”
Dr G 26:57 “Excuse me, Mr. Cornelius?”
Dr Rad 27:01 Yeah exactly. Like, I feel like it has something to do with that. Because after all, these people with lots of names, these are the elite. And as usual, these are the people that we have an enormous amount of information about, because they’re the ones who are writing history. They’re the ones who are making history in their own minds. So we have a lot of their names recorded. And of course, they’re the ones that are generally wealthy enough to erect things like tombstones. Now, that’s not to say we don’t have evidence about other people are going to get to them eventually, either in this episode, or in another episode. But definitely, we have, I think, the most idea about how their names work, and they have all these complicated names, because it really matters to them, about status, you know, and family and that sort of thing. The lower down the social spectrum you go, the fewer names people tend to have in the early period of Rome.
Dr G 27:51 Indeed, indeed. And to give you a sense of how this elite tendency is operating as well. When we get into the late Republic, we start to see more and more evidence for elite family adoptions. So somebody shifting out of one very fancy family, and finding themselves legally situated in another very fancy family. And my go to example for this is Livia’s dad.
Dr Rad 28:24 Oh, I thought you were gonna use Augustus. Okay.
Dr G 28:28 Forget that guy. Livia’s dad, so he is born Appius Claudius Pulcher. So he’s born into the Claudian gens in the Pulchri branch of the family, but when he’s quite young, he is then adopted into the Livilli Drusi family. So another fancy family. Yeah. And this means that he picks up a whole bunch of new names. So he starts off with the praenomen Appius, but he becomes Marcus; starts off with the nomen Claudius, but becomes Livius; starts off with the first cognomen Pulcher and becomes Drusus. So almost completely unrecognizable. Like you said, “Who’s Marcus Livius Drusus?” you’d be like, “Well, it ain’t Appius Claudius Pulcher!” And you’d be mostly right about that. But the second cognomen that he’s got lets us all know, where he came from, and also what has happened to him, because he picks up Claudianus as a second cognomen and this is going to happen a lot and it’s going to get more complicated as people get further into the imperial period. But at this stage in the Republic, the -anus ending of a name – and shout out for people who have talked to us having noticed that anus comes up a lot. You are correct. And it’s gonna keep happening – The old -anus ending is indicating that he was born into the Claudii gens. So he gets to retain his gens affiliation in his name, but that Claudiaus is indicating that he has been adopted out of the Claudii. And he is now part of the Livius. Drusi instead.
Dr Rad 30:19 Yeah, cuz the Romans take adoption very seriously in practice, like you are literally legally removed entirely from your family of birth and put into another family. And it’s not like they look at you like, “oh, yeah, you’re not as good as my other children.” Or “I’m not taking you as seriously as my other children.” They take it very seriously. Like, it’s a done deal. Like you. You are one of them.
Dr G 30:44 When you’re adopted into a Roman family, you become part of that family? No question.
Dr Rad 30:49 Yes.
Dr G 30:50 Yeah, you are just as important as the other children that they have you are you have a legal standing that is comparable to what they have. And from that point onwards, that is where your allegiance lies. So that’s really interesting, I think, because the family is the bedrock of everything in Roman politics.
Dr Rad 31:07 It is. And I feel like it has to do with obviously, you’re taking on that name. And therefore you are part of that, you know, political legacy, in terms of that’s the name that we’re putting out there. It’s important, it’s associated with that family, but I feel like it also has to do with property. You know, because now that you’re Yeah, yeah, now that you’re legally a part of that family, you are going to be legally entitled to whatever it is that they have. And so that means that they kind of have to take you just as seriously because you’re gonna get just as much as the other male people and the female, you know, so women can inherit property and Rome after a certain period. So you’re going to be inheriting most likely so that that part is important, too.
Dr G 31:52 Yeah. So this is telling us something really significant about the way that the legacy system in Roman families is operating as well. So part of what happens for elite families is that they are trying to figure out ways to keep the property that they own within their family lines. So if you are in a situation where you have daughters, elite women are able to inherit under certain circumstances. And certainly progressively over time, it becomes more common that they can, but there is a period in which it’s still quite challenging for that to be for sure, legally, okay. And one of the ways you can get around that is to adopt male children into the family to secure that stuff.
Dr Rad 32:38 Okay, so I’m going to use the Augustus example, because it’s just an easy example for people to understand just to sum this all up. So very similar to the one that you highlighted, but maybe with some more familiar names for our audience. So Augustus is a special name, that this douchebag who ends up becoming princeps gets-
Dr G 32:59 Excuse me?
Dr Rad 33:01 Just making sure you’re still listening!
Dr G 33:04 So, so Augustus is an agnomen, one of these honorific names that’s given to him in 27 BCE. Fancy times!
Dr Rad 33:13 Absolutely. So he starts life as Gaius Octavius Thurinus, which I don’t think most people would recognize as having any resemblance to the names that we mostly use to refer to him.
Dr G 33:27 Are you he’s telling me he comes from a backwater equestrian family from the middle of nowhere?
Dr Rad 33:33 That might be what I’m trying to indicate by his name. Yes. So he gets adopted by Julius Caesar in his will, which is unusual, I’m just gonna highlight by the way. So he becomes kayas, Julius Kaiser, Caesar, whatever, however you want to say it. So obviously taking on the name of the man who adopted him, Julius Caesar. And then he has Octavianus at the end.
Dr G 34:01 Yes, which he hates.
Dr Rad 34:04 Yeah, which is why you’ll read books, which sometimes refer to him as Octavian. And as a way of sort of distinguishing the different periods of his life when he’s Octavius. It’s before he’s been adopted by Julius Caesar, who is his great uncle. When he’s Octavian. It indicates that he has been adopted by Caesar, but he hasn’t got the special honorific name of Augustus yet. And you might also find books that refer to him as like the young Caesar or something like that.
Dr G 34:35 Yeah, because Augustus didn’t want to be called Octavianus. He spent a lot of time tramping around being like, “No, I’m Gaius Julius Caesar, son of Gaius Julius Caesar.” And then he gets Julius Caesar deified and he’s like, my name is “Gaius Julius Caesar, son of the deified Gaius Julius Caesar.” Somebody will be like, “Well, Octavianus,” and he’s like, “Nooooo!”
Dr Rad 35:06 I feel like it sounds very much like he was like Marsha Marsha, Marsha. But yeah, he’s a good example because it kind of shows the process of him taking on the name and that being probably one of the most important things that Julius Caesar gives him – Dangerous, but important.
Dr G 35:24 It is definitely definitely the most important thing, Julius Caesar gives him because without that bit of paper, none of the stuff that he did would have been possible just there was just no way nobody would take him seriously. So the fact that when it gets anglicized they lose the honours ending of Octavianus-
Dr Rad 35:47 They’ve lost his anus? Aww no!
Dr G 35:52 I just hate it when that happens! why did they lose the anus?
Dr Rad 35:56 It’s hilarious because I think of nothing but arseholes when I think of him.
Dr G 36:02 You’re wounding me deeply, Dr Rad.
Dr Rad 36:04 I’m sorry. I’ll stop, I’ll stop. I’m very serious now.
Dr G 36:08 So his name is Octavianus. And it gets anglicized into Octavian. So that sort of creates even maybe more confusion for modern readers who are looking at things being like, is it Octavius. Is it Octavian? Is it Octavianus? Is it Augustus? What’s going on?
Dr Rad 36:24 Yeah, exactly. And it’s all to do with, as you say, those last few letters of the name, the -ius, the -ianus, Or the -anus and then, of course, the -us.
Dr G 36:36 Yeah, I mean, the -us is everywhere. So that’s just kind of how it goes. But yeah, the -anus, the -ilius, like these little nuances in those suffix – those endings to those words – is really important for what’s going on with the name. So when they drop off in, you know, modern translations and things like that, you know, it can lead to confusion.
Dr Rad 36:59 And when you have law at the end, that often is like a cute little nickname type of thing. Like if you think about Caligula, that’s meant to be “little boots”. Like, it’s like a little diminutive, where it’s meant to be like, “Oh my God, he’s so adorable. He’s a toddler and a little military uniform. And Look, he’s got little boots on!” Because the boots that the soldiers wore were caligae. And even for women as well. You might have someone who’s called for example, Livilla, which is like “little Livia”, you know, like, she’s so cute. She’s like, the smaller version.
Dr G 37:36 Yeah, and although this just makes me think of Ahala, which is “armpit”. And I was like,does that mean cute armpit now?
Dr Rad 37:45 I don’t know that Latin enough to be definitive about that. But you do tend to see when you see those sorts of names, then it can be like a little diminutive or something like that. But I don’t know that there’s a hard and fast rule about that.
Dr G 37:59 And I think you’ve opened up the the gateway into thinking about women’s names.
Dr Rad 38:04 Thank you, I’d love to talk about women’s names.
Dr G 38:08 Because women do get a pretty raw deal in the Latin language when it comes to names. There’s no doubt about it. If you need any evidence whatsoever, that we’re dealing with a highly patriarchal system, the way that they deal with women’s names is a key piece of evidence.
Dr Rad 38:26 It really is. So women get basically a feminized version of the nomen. So like the gens name, that’s how it starts. So to stick with the Julian’s, it’s probably the most obvious example. If you have a chick in that family, she’ll probably be called Julia or Yulia, depending on how you want to pronounce it. And if you have more than one, you’ll just number them off. So might literally be a number or it might be like a major-minor situation, but it’s basically indicating the order in which they were born.
Dr G 39:03 Yeah, now as far as I can tell, the the major-minor element is more to do with historians trying to distinguish historical figures, then how the Romans would have done it. Yeah. So for instance, we’ve got like Julia Maior – Julia the Elder versus Julia Minor – Julia the Younger – both of those women would have just been called Julia for the Romans.
Dr Rad 39:27 That’s true, and they would have just would have been confused.
Dr G 39:30 Yeah. Like which one are you talking about? Like, give me something? And that’s where I think everybody must have a nickname. Likewise, the issue with Agrippina Maior – Agrippina the Elder, wife of Germanicus – and Agrippina Minor, the daughter of Agrippina the Elder and Germanicus. Now those two are just, they’re just both Agrippina.
Dr Rad 39:50 Yeah, that’s true.
Dr G 39:51 That’s how it works. So if you’ve got more than one in the same family, so say the mother gives birth to three daughters. Well, then they start to get numbers you’ve got Julia? Julia Seconda. Julia Tertia. Yeah, we know of a famous example from the mid to late Republic, Claudia Quinta, suggesting that she was one of five sisters. Youngest at that.
But then you get like with the really sort of the boring things like you say like the feminization of the gens, and it could also include the branch within that gens. So Livia is known to us as Livia Drusilla. Because she comes from the Livi Drusi. Like her name is not special. It’s just letting you know where she comes from.
Dr Rad 40:38 Yes, absolutely. And this is kind of to do with the way that Roman marriage evolved. So very early on, we think that the Romans had a more sort of all encompassing version of marriage, the manus marriage, which is where a woman was properly, legally kind of absorbed into the family that she married into, almost as though she was in fact, like a daughter of that family. But that becomes unfashionable. And there are many reasons for that. It kind of has to do, I think, with the fact that women could be used as marriage pawns. And it was just easier to untangle a marriage if you didn’t go through the smartest marriage. But that’s just my personal opinion.
Dr G 41:23 And also increasingly, as women became able and more likely to inherit, you did want to retain them in the birth family, if you needed to.
Dr Rad 41:32 Yeah, exactly. And so when that happens when you get the sin monos marriage where a woman remains part of her original gens, even though she’s married to this man, she will obviously, her name will be like a living advertisement of where she comes from, you know, it’ll go obviously, it is like a feminized version of her original gens name. And as time goes on, I know we won’t get into it too much, but as time goes on, if women come from particularly elite families, sometimes later on in Rome’s history, they actually start to use those names sometimes when they’re fashioning names for children sometimes, but that’s much that’s much later on. And it’s, it’s too complicated for today.
Dr G 42:19 Yeah. And when the wife comes from a more illustrious family than the husband, you might want to lean into the prestige of where the wife and mother comes from, rather than the husband.
Dr Rad 42:30 Exactly, yeah. And as again, as time goes on, and again, we’re not going to get into this too much now. But as time goes on, women do acquire more than just like the one name it we do see women getting more names as time goes on. And if you’re not a higher class woman, you may very well get like a nickname or have like a stage name, I suppose of sorts. You know, like, if you’re, for example, I’m thinking of women who are like, sex workers, but like elite kind of sex workers, you know, they might have a proper name, but then they might also have like a, a nickname or a working name. So specifically, the one I’ll give you an example of, there’s a mistress of Mark Antony, known as Cytheris. Now, that wouldn’t have been probably her actual name name, but more of like a nickname, because she was an ex-slave of a guy named Volumnius. So her name probably would have been like, Volumnia, or something like that.
Dr G 43:26 Interesting. So like, nicknames. When we’ve got nicknames that are noted down, they’re often really quite rude. We’ve got one of the infamous examples in the Late Republic is Clodia.
Dr Rad 43:41 Oh, yes.
Dr G 43:41 Now, Clodia is one of three sisters. But then you’re like, Well, how are we gonna get her to stand out from the bunch? It turns out that she gains a bunch of nicknames, most of which are really critical, a lot of which come from Cicero, who doesn’t like her. She’s known as Nola, “the unwilling”. She’s, she’s also referred to as Medea Palatina, “the Medea of the Palatine”. And sometimes just as it seems, maybe a particular insult or maybe just a literal description, Clodia Metellii. I, because she’s married to Metellius, right. So she’s Metellus’ Clodia, as opposed to anybody else’s.
Dr Rad 44:25 So all about the ownership, isn’t it?
Dr G 44:28 Yeah. But she is also speculated to be the figure who appears in Catullus’ poetry, referred to as Lesbia.
Dr Rad 44:37 Yes, yes.
Dr G 44:38 So she is a woman of many names.
Dr Rad 44:40 Yes, I suppose it’s not so much like a stage name. It’s like a code name.
Dr G 44:44 Indeed, and look, Catullus, he’s, he’s got a lot of code names for people. I think my favorite one is his reference consistently to Mamuura – a guy he doesn’t like – as Mentula, cause Mentula is is a rude Latin word for penis.
Ah yes, the Romans.
So witty, so clever.
Dr Rad 45:12 Oh, dear, Well, should we talk about slave names? So do you want to wrap up there?
Dr G 45:16 I reckon we should talk about enslaved people, what is happening to them? And how do we know what their names are?
Dr Rad 45:22 Well, this is the thing, Dr. G, slaves very much like women, were low low down in the rank of things, you know, I mean, in terms of what they can actually do in life. Can they be involved in politics in a formal way? Hell no. Can they run an army? Absolutely not. So I think that their lack of role in public life is kind of reflected in their lack of names in terms of they don’t have very many, they’re that they’re certainly not gonna have a trianomina. That is definitely an elite Roman thing.
Dr G 45:56 And it seems to be the case that mostly what happens to them is they get given a name. And it’s a cutesy kind of nicknamey kind of thing. It’s a bit of a throwaway. Yeah, really emphasizing the fact that they’re a possession. And then it’s the reference to the gens of the owner, essentially, but not in a way that would suggest that they were part of that family just that they were a possession of that gens.
Dr Rad 46:25 Yes, definitely. And so we do actually have a reasonable amount of slave names, I suppose. We don’t always get names like you and I both know, we’ve talked about a number of like slave uprisings or slaves in forming another slaves with like conspiracies and that kind of thing. And very rarely do we come across a name with that, because they’re not important. You know, they’re not significant figures to the people who are writing these histories.
Dr G 46:49 Not to the elite writing histories.
Dr Rad 46:51 Yeah, no, no, no, sorry, go on, go on. No, I’m not saying that. Yeah, no, they they’re not considered to be important by the Romans who are writing the history. However, this is where archaeology becomes very important. We do have items that have been left behind which record slave names, it might be something to do with like maybe tombstones, or it might be, for example, slave collars. So slave collars sometimes have records of names. So there’s one that was found that had engraved on it, “I am called Januarius. I am the slave of Dextrus.”
Dr G 47:23 Hmm. All right. So the slave is called January.
Dr Rad 47:26 Yeah, which might be when he was purchased.
Dr G 47:31 Yeah, I mean, it’s a pretty nondescript kind of name in the same way that sort of praenomens end up being as well.
Dr Rad 47:37 Yeah. And then there’s also one that we found that “Marci Puer” which means Marcus’s boy. So as you say, it’s all about ownership. And the way of calling him boy might not reflect his actual age. It’s just that way of kind of referring to someone in a very patronizing way. I think like, you know, that they are Yeah, yeah, it might, but we don’t know.
Dr G 48:00 This is a bit like the inclusion of so was slave as part of their name. So this is the sort of thing that gets tested as well. So they might have a bit of a throwaway name. So we’ve got an example. Like, for Phillipus is their name. They’re part of the Caecilii. So they’re owned by the Caecilii. And they’re the slave of Lucius. And that’s it, that’s their complete name, right. So their name really emphasizes their servitude. And it’s clearly not the name that they would ever choose for themselves.
Dr Rad 48:40 No. And one of the interesting things about Roman slavery, unlike other places in the ancient world, is that manumission – or being freed from slavery – does become increasingly common. So there isn’t necessarily an expectation that you’re going to be a slave forever now, very much I think depends on when you are a slave in room’s history, and also, what kind of employment you are given as a slave, for example, I think you have a fairly high chance of being manumitted if you are a household slave. However, if you are working in mines, for example, you’re far more likely, unfortunately, to probably just die in those mines and you are to ever be freed.
Dr G 49:22 Yeah, for sure.
Dr Rad 49:23 However, when you are freed, you actually, it kind of starts this process where you can actually start to kind of enter your family into this room and system now, not straightaway, don’t, don’t get carried away. Don’t get ahead of that straightaway. But certainly, your name will reflect as you say, the family that used to own you because you’re bonded forever, even though you might be freed. You become a client of that family. And you might even stay physically close to them. For example, they might live near you and you might run a bakery on their behalf or something like that, and they might take an interest in your business, who knows. So your name is going to reflect that new identity. And your children will be able to take part in the Roman system like pretty fully by the time we get to late Republic early empire.
Dr G 50:16 Yeah. So in terms of thinking about how this looks as examples, I’ve got a couple of examples for you. So one of the things that one of the key things that happens with the name is the inclusion of the libertus or liberta, depending on whether you’re masculine or feminine. And so indicating very clearly that you’re freed person. Yep, you might retain your old slave name, like your praenomen as a cognomen. And then the other parts of your name, are indicative of who used to own you. So like, it’s almost like the ownership continues in an informal way, because like you now carry the name of the person who has enslaved you Yeah, for the rest of your life. So we’ve got some examples like Aulus Pupius Aulus Libertus Antiochus. So the Aulus Pupius Aulus is about the slave owner. Libertus is indicating this as a freed man. And Antiochus is the name he goes by. So it was probably the name that he had while he was a slave.
Dr Rad 51:32 Right, yeah. And these names as well, as you can kind of tell from that example, they might reflect obviously, where they were from, might have might have something to do with that, again, geography, potentially being a bit of an indicator there.
Dr G 51:46 Potentially, although there did seem to be a trend for giving enslaved people foreign names. So there was a real trend for like Greek slave names. Even if they weren’t Greek-
Dr Rad 51:58 Because of the the status of having a Greek slave?
Dr G 52:02 Or just a real recognition that they weren’t Roman, even when they became Roman, if you like,
Dr Rad 52:07 True, true. It can also be the slave market where they were bought.
Dr G 52:11 Yeah, exactly.
Dr Rad 52:13 Because they might have no idea.
Dr G 52:15 So like, we’ve got this continuation of that relationship with the enslaver. And then we’ve got the capacity in the next generation. So when that freed person if and when they have children, those children will gain more citizen rights. Yes, they will, was the freedmen is always going to be in a restricted kind of position.
Dr Rad 52:35 Yeah, true. And I suppose one of the interesting things is that, say when slaves are still enslaved, they may just go by like the one name, okay. And unlike, when we were talking about Roman cognomen names, and how they developed how they can sometimes be negative, it’s unusual to find slave names that are negative, they’re usually like positive character traits. So yeah, they don’t tend to be which is weird, because you think that the Romans wouldn’t care so much about that, but maybe they’re trying to I don’t know, is that like a morale thing? You’re trying to inspire them?
Dr G 53:12 I don’t know. They probably just thought it was cute.
Dr Rad 53:15 Yeah. And it might also have something to do with your profession, the name that you’re given. So for example, one of the most famous inscriptions, what not inscription, sorry, I shouldn’t say that. One of the most famous pieces of graffiti that has been found to do with gladiators mentioned is a gladiator named Celadus, or Seladus, depending on how you want to say it. And this is a yeah, there’s a piece of graffiti talking about him and the reaction that the crowds have to him and that sort of thing. And that means “The Crowd’s Roar”. So that obviously has something to do with the fact that he is a gladiator. And if you think about of course, the most famous example, I mean, I have to bring him up Spartacus.
Dr G 53:56 It’s really hard to get through an episode without a Spartacus mention.
Dr Rad 54:00 I know, I know. But once again, he’s just he’s just got the one name, okay. Because at the time he’s getting this name, you know, he is in fact a slave. And this may potentially be a name that’s trying to give him some like Thracian origins, how valid they are or not, who knows, you know?
Dr G 54:19 Yeah, no, fair enough. So I think to wrap up, I just have a couple of hilarious examples to share with you of names.
Dr Rad 54:27 I’m always up for hilarious examples.
Dr G 54:31 You gonna have to bear with me. Okay. So jumping ahead into the high imperial period. The year is 169 CE. And we have the consul of that year, who holds the record as it happens for the person with the most names.
Dr Rad 54:51 Oh.
Dr G 54:53 He has 38 names.
Dr Rad 54:56 What??
Dr G 55:00 But wait for it. Let me give it to you so you can feel the full force, okay?
Dr Rad 55:04 Okay, I’m ready. I’m ready. I’m ready.
Dr G 55:07 Q(uinto) Pompeio Q(uinti) f(ilio) Quir(ina) Senecioni / Roscio Murenae Coelio Sex(to) / Iulio Frontino Silio Deciano / C(aio) Iulio Eurycli Herculaneo L(ucio) / Vibullio Pio Augustano Alpino / Bellicio Sollerti Iulio Apro / Ducenio Proculo Rutiliano / Rufino Silio Valenti Valerio / Nigro Cl(audio) Fusco Saxae Amyntiano / Sosio Prisco.
Dr Rad 55:49 I think you forgot to Alfa Romeo. That is so ridiculous. Like, I can’t even make sense of like, like, I know that names are supposed to give some indication of like, where you came from and stuff that like you lost me after about the first three.
Dr G 56:05 I hope his nickname is 38 names. So they just call him 38.
Dr Rad 56:11 I love it. Oh my god.
Dr G 56:13 Goodness me, what chaos.
Dr Rad 56:16 But that’s what I mean. like, if you’re trying to advertise where you came from? Like, did the Romans even get that?
Dr G 56:23 I mean, I there’s a lot to take in there isn’t there? But yeah, that that appears on an actual inscription. So-
Dr Rad 56:35 So we know it’s real. We know it’s real.
Dr G 56:38 It’s out there. Which is pretty hilarious, I think. And the last example I want to draw your attention to is one that was sent to us by a listener.
Dr Rad 56:49 Yes, I remember this one. You have better eyes than I do. I couldn’t read the inscription. Just a FYI, just an FYI, by the way, if you want to send us stuff in, we’re both getting older. Can you please send us as many photographs as possible? Like even even like the little caption that goes with the thing in the museum just because our eyes are not what they used to be.
Dr G 57:11 I mean, speak for yourself. She’ll be right. So we want to say a huge thank you, first of all to Florian from Switzerland. Thank you very much for sending us this inscription.
Dr Rad 57:25 We were thrilled.
Dr G 57:25 Yes, we were thrilled. It did make our day. This inscription can be found in the Museo Nazionale di Ravenna. So if you happen to be in Ravenna, we totally recommend you go there and have a Look at this. Because this guy’s name is Phalleus.
Sounds a bit cheeky.
Sounds like a little bit like phallus. Was his nickname Phallus? I mean, I certainly hope so. That people made a lot of dick jokes about this guy.
Dr Rad 57:54 For sure.
Dr G 57:54 He looks pretty serious on his tombstone, I’ll give him that doesn’t look happy.
Dr Rad 57:58 Well, it’s not really the time for like a big grin, is it?
Dr G 58:04 So Phalleus is the son of Diocles, this we know, he’s also the helmsmen of a ship called the Galeata. And his tombstone was erected by his freedmen, Pieris and Nice, or Nike, depending on your preference. And it’s got a description here of size. And it says, you know, six feet in front and 15 feet in the field. And I’m hoping that this is not a reference to the size of the phallus, more, more likely a reference to the size of the ship.
Dr Rad 58:40 I was gonna say that sounds like well, more than I can take, Dr G!
Dr G 58:44 That is exceptionally large. So Phalleus, thank you for all that you’ve done. Searching hard and wide, it’s, it’s not at all clear what this name might mean, it’s pretty unusual. It’s fairly unattested. So, we’re very lucky to have this example. I think,
Dr Rad 59:04 Did you say that there was a date for this one, as we know when it’s from?
Dr G 59:07 Ahh we think so. And I’m not talking here on my own behalf necessarily. Some scholars have looked into this.
Dr Rad 59:14 The royal we.
Dr G 59:16 The royal we. Kind scholars out there who have looked into this because they’re mostly interested in this inscription, because it’s describing somebody who’s in charge of a ship, right? Not a military leader or such or a naval officer, but the person who’s actually running the boat, okay? And they think this is from the end of the Julio-Claudian period, or somewhere like sort of like Augustus up to the end of the Julio-Claudian period somewhere in that sort of-
Dr Rad 59:46 Somewhere in that 100 years. Okay, so now so names have started to shift a little bit by then.
Dr G 59:54 Well, we don’t get a sense like from this kind of name. It doesn’t see seem like we’re dealing with like a highbrow Roman family at all, doesn’t sit in that category.
Dr Rad 1:00:05 No, it does not.
Dr G 1:00:06 And I’m not sure how to necessarily position this name. But I mean, we’ve got somebody here called Phalleus, and I personally find joy in that.
Dr Rad 1:00:16 Oh, definitely. And it actually attests to what we were just talking about with the relationship between slaves and their masters, or should I say, former slaves and their masters the fact that this guy’s freedmen, organized for his burial, seemingly, which happened even to a very elite people like Pompey, the great when he had, you know, fallen afoul of a whole bunch of people, including Ptolemy the 13th, and had his head cut off. It was his freedmen, I believe, who helped to organize his burial – organize his remains and that sort of thing.
Dr G 1:00:48 Ahh – way to bring some spoilers into this!
Dr Rad 1:00:51 Sorry! Oh dear. Well, I hope that that was a really useful kind of overview of Roman names. As you can see, it’s kind of hard to rein in because there’s so much change over time, but there is a fascinating topic. And if you would like to hear more, so if you want to hear more about how they evolve over time, and we can look at things like Christian names, or we can look into certain types of names, maybe in a bit more detail, please do let us know.
Dr G 1:01:20 Oh, yeah, if there are topics that you’d like us to consider, or there’s little bits of trickiness of ancient Rome, that you would like a more in depth explanation of, please get in touch. We’re on many social medias, you can leave a comment on our website, all of those good things, we look at all of the places. And yeah, we’ll definitely see what we can find out and put together for you. So Roman names. Excellent, somewhat confusing. And gonna get more confusing as time goes on.
Dr Rad 1:01:48 I was gonna say. To be honest, I still find Roman names very confusing.
Dr G 1:01:54 They are. I do spend time really carefully looking at them when I’m navigating them, because it’s easy to – when you’re not a Roman – just sort of, like get trip yourself up a little bit. And go back and have to correct but yeah, there’s definitely a pattern to what the Romans are doing, depending on where you sit in the hierarchy of Roman society.
Dr Rad 1:02:20 Yeah. And there is a reason for it. I think that’s the thing when you when you see like this constant, passing on of names, like, you know, Appius Claudius, Appius Claudius, Appius Claudius, you’re like, “Oh, my God, why are they doing this!” But you realize that there is actually a reason, there’s a reason, it’s not just them trying to be cruel to the generations.
Dr G 1:02:41 You know, it’s not that they hate historians.
Dr Rad 1:02:46 If anything, they love history. They build the history right into the name.
Dr G 1:02:50 Yeah. They want us to know exactly what’s going on with this guy is very generous of them.
Dr Rad 1:02:56 I think the big takeaway for me, and I’m just going to use this to sum up my thoughts, Dr G, is that they seem so foreign, but when you actually think about it, it’s to do with stuff that we still care about, which is your status really like telling people something about yourself. And that’s why parents still put so much effort into naming their kids these days, like, they kind of know that the sound of a name, the sound that it makes the meaning of it, and that kind of stuff, it might kind of give certain connotations to people who hear it. And we still obviously have people who have very famous, recognizable last names in our society. So I think that that really resonates with me the status, the kind of recognizable aspects of names. I think that’s what I take away from this.
Dr G 1:03:43 Yeah, for sure. And I think you can clearly see the legacy of how influential naming conventions are, when we think about how society works and operates, even within the sort of paradigms of the modern world. There is, depending on where you live, there is the tendency for women to change their name after they get married. And that is a legacy of sort of patriarchal structures. And it’s letting people know that there’s a kind of a primacy of a masculine line.
Dr Rad 1:04:21 Yeah.
Dr G 1:04:22 And those sorts of things tell you something about the way society works. And people who resist it, or people who accept it are either embracing or criticizing elements of that structure. And the Romans are doing similar things as well, like their naming conventions are not set in stone. Now. They do change over time, and they adapt for the need that they have for the way that this society is operating as well. So you know, poor 38 names. He’s trying to do something there. He’s got a plan and it’s built on a legacy of names adding to your legacy over time. Like he didn’t just come out of nowhere, presumably somewhere in his ancestry is somebody with 22 names and bumps out to 28 names and so forth and so on. So it’s kind of, he’s just sitting at this real crescendo, where it’s like, okay, is this it? Is this where we say enough is enough?
Dr Rad 1:05:22 The man isn’t, I mean, I’d almost say that he’s trying to get away with something and like, be fraudulent in his ancestry, except that it’s so frickin obvious that I can’t believe that I have to believe it has to be true. Like, it’s just crazy otherwise.
Dr G 1:05:34 Look, the the sense in which he’s got, he’s got that huge legacy from all different parts of all different families. This idea that, that actually, the history of his family is so transparent, that he can tell you the depth of his legacy, and the legacy that he stands upon. That’s really fascinating to me, because, I mean, it’s, it’s outrageous, but hilarious.
Dr Rad 1:05:58 Yeah. And I suppose it’s probably good to note, although I’m sure most people know this. But just in case you don’t, because we don’t know where in the world you might be from. In Australia, and places like America and England and that sort of thing. You still have quite a lot of names that are derived from Latin that are used quite commonly today. So if you’re a Mark, if you are an Anthony, if you are an Amelia and Amanda, a Miranda, you have a name that is derived from Latin.
Dr G 1:06:31 I think that’s a happy note to wrap up on.
Dr Rad 1:06:33 I think so too. Well, goodbye Dr. G, I say formally in respect of your academic credentials.
Dr G 1:06:42 So Well, Dr. Rad, respecting also your academic credentials. A huge shout out to our Patreon supporters for suggesting this topic to us.
Dr Rad 1:06:54 Absolutely.
Dr G 1:06:55 And a huge thanks to everyone who listens to our show. If you’d like to support our work, there are many ways you can do it. You could leave a review of the podcasts wherever you listen to it. You could also buy us a coffee on Ko Fi. Or you could sign up to be a Patreon as well. We’d love that! No obligation, the episode will be free to you anyway. But, you know, thank you for listening.
Dr Rad 1:07:23 Indeed. And we’ll just quickly say that if you want to check out the sources that we use to put together this episode, and also our sound credits, you should check out the show notes at the partial historians.com And you can also use that to find out how to support us but really, one of the best ways to support us and the cheapest is to just tell someone about the show and tell them that you love it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 145 - Power to the Plebs
Dec 14, 2023
We’ve all been waiting for YEARS for this… more power to the plebs! Yes, you heard us correctly. For once, the patricians will not get exactly what they want.
Episode 145 – Power to the Plebs
Icilii, Icilii, Icilii
It is 409 BCE and another exciting year in the conflict of the orders (allegedly). The plebeians were enraged when elections were held for consuls instead of military tribunes with consular power.
The plebeians decided to channel the advice of the First Wives Club. Don’t get mad, get everything! Denied the chance to elect their hero from the previous year, the plebeians rallied together and secured THREE plebeian quaestorship.
The quaestorship had technically been open to plebeians since 420 BCE. However, it took a decade for the plebeians to finally take the plunge. They were assisted by several tribunes of the plebs from the Icilii family. The Icilii often appear when something important happens for plebeian rights. Don’t you just love the grand narrative of Roman history?
Hungry for more, the plebeians decided to push for elections of military tribunes with consular elections. They were determined to elect a plebeian candidate in 408 BCE.
The patricians were already aghast at the prospect of plebeian quaestors, so they were hardly going to let that happen.
Once again, we find ourselves in a stalemate, with neither the patricians or the plebeians willing to back down.
Join us for another action-packed episode!
Things to Look Out For:
Tribune of the plebs in trench coats and sunglasses
Way too many Icilii running around Rome
Dr Rad’s phone alarm going off and her not hearing it because, you know, she’s deaf. Really sorry about that, guys!
Cn. Cornelius A. F. M. m. Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 414
L. Furius (L. f. Sp. n.?) Medullinus (Pat.) Cos. 413
Tribune of the Plebs
(L.?) Icilius
? Icilius
? Icilius
Quaestors
P. Aelius
K. Fabius Ambustus (Pat.)
P. Papius
Q. Silius
Our Sources
Dr G reads the Fasti Capitolini and Diodorus Siculus 13.80.1.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.54-55.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC, Pixabay and Fesliyan Studios.
Automated Transcript.
Courtesy of Otter AI.
Dr Rad 00:12
Welcome to the partial historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the Hello, and welcome to another episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,.
Dr G 01:04
and I am your other host, Dr. G. Hey,
Dr Rad 01:08
Hey, Dr. G. Welcome to a history of Rome that’s being told in excruciatingly painful detail,
Dr G 01:17
Just as the Romans would have liked it, I think.
Dr Rad 01:19
Exactly. I mean, we’re just fulfilling their wishes.
Dr G 01:22
Yeah. Their fame lives on as long as we talk about them.
Dr Rad 01:26
That is correct. So Dr G, last episode we were dealing with 410 BC. Today we’re going to be dealing with 409, it all makes chronological sense.
Dr G 01:40
Yeah, it looks so far. So good. I do not quibble at all with that logic. And 410 was an interesting year because we got introduced to a new location that we hadn’t heard of before. Called Carventum. Ah, yes, we still aren’t entirely sure where it is, the mystery remains. But we do think it might be part of a important strategic location that sort of forms the edge of Roman territory and Hernitian territory. And obviously, the Volscians and the Aequians want to get their little dirty paws all over it.
Dr Rad 02:19
Like they do everything. Indeed,
Dr G 02:22
Indeed, that’s just the way those guys
Dr Rad 02:24
Oh, I know, don’t they knew that Rome is destined to be the superpower in this corner of the world.
Dr G 02:29
Not yet. Not yet.
02:33
So what we had last time was some classic conflict of the order stuff, I think, hmm, yeah. So we had our command commander called Valerius, who ended up being quite an unpopular, man.
02:51
Wow, how so? Is it even possible for Roman to become unpopular?
Dr Rad 02:56
Well, he was so harsh, I think after the conflict that had happened between the patricians like himself and the representative of the people, the tribune of the plebs, Menenius, that he kind of alienated them just just that much. They didn’t like him at all. And they really liked Menenius. Yes, well, that’s the kind of the way it goes at the moment, isn’t it? There’s a lot of backwards and forwards with this kind of class political struggle, which is really evidence as far as we’re concerned, I think the nature of our annalistic sources, Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, whenever if ever he put us back into the scene, really trying to figure out what it meant to be a Roman in this very early period of history, where they don’t have a lot of good written accent evidence from the time in question. Exactly. So basically, we ended up with this situation where because Valerius had made himself so unpopular, and Menenius, the tribune of the plebs looked even better by comparison, that the patricians were incredibly nervous because they were sure that if they went with elections for military tributes with consular power, that Menenius would end up being the first plebeian to actually get elected to this office, which is technically open to anyone.
Dr G 04:26
Quelle horreur, we cannot possibly have a plebeian and charged around here. I
Dr Rad 04:33
It simply cannot be tolerated, it will not be tolerated, and therefore we’re going to have concealer elections and concealer elections alone. Well,
Dr G 04:41
Well, this all makes sense for what comes up in 409 BCE.
Dr Rad 04:46
It does I think it might be time to dive in
Dr G 05:06
It is 409 BC A exciting time in Romans history as is every year I have to say. And I have some excellent news for you, Dr. Rad. Oh my god. Am I about to fall off my chair? Have you rediscovered Dionysius of Halicarnassus Oh sadly no. But the Fasti Capitolini is back, baby.
Dr Rad 05:30
Well, I’m glad you have something.
Dr G 05:33
Literally two names
Dr Rad 05:37
it’s better than a big fat nothing you bring into these episodes. Oh,
Dr G 05:42
yeah, like a historian is only as good as their material. You
Dr Rad 05:46
always do your research.
Dr G 05:48
I try but it’s hard to cobble together things for me at the moment. Yeah, Yeah, to be honest, I think I have the easier deal, actually having something to read. Oh, Look, you bring the narrative and I give you a whole bunch of names. And I don’t know what happens to any of them. And that I think is fine. That is how we’re sharing the load right now. Well, there
Dr Rad 06:06
certainly are a whole bunch of names for the year for now. So why don’t you tell us who they are.
Dr G 06:12
I show we have two consuls, which is very much in keeping with that fear in 410. About anybody coming into position as military tribune with consular power. You can solve that by just having consuls. So we have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus. We have had him in our mix before he was a military tribune with consular power in 414 BCE. And we also have Lucius Furius. Medullinus. I know ,a Furius back in the mix. One of our favourite genses right now. Now he was previously consul in 413. And he is in the middle of an upwards career trajectory. He doesn’t know it. But foreshadowing we
Dr Rad 07:01
do think
Dr G 07:05
we certainly do. Thanks a lot.
Dr Rad 07:09
It looks like yes, we
Dr G 07:11
are. And we’ve also got in addition to the consuls, we’ve got three possible tribune of the plebs. And to make things even more interesting on this front, every single name that I have attached to the role of tribune of the plebs is an Icilius. At least three named possibly different. Icilii in the tribune of the plebs mix.
Dr Rad 07:37
Okay, hilarious. But it does make sense because if we’re ramping up the conflict of the oddest narrative, this duel between the patricians and the plebeians, who better to have in office than an Icilii?
Dr G 07:53
it does present us with some problem so. So the tribune of the plebs position it’s been talked about in previous years, we’ve definitely talked about it where it seems like our sources are written sources are assuming that there’s already 10 of these characters. Yeah. We don’t have any good evidence to establish that the body of the tribune of the plebs was that large this early inroads history.
Dr Rad 08:21
How are you? He’s just had a very large dinner.
Dr G 08:25
What do you mean this 10 of him? Just one man, where are you very large coat. So we’ve got three possible Icilii as tribune of the plebs, no other group is named, but that would be a substantial faction within the tribune of the plebs, if they were a group of 10.
Dr Rad 08:43
It is. But as we’ve highlighted, this is a family that has a very strong association with the office of the tribune of the plebs, they often pop up just when things get dramatic,
Dr G 08:53
They do. And this gives you a sense that maybe something dramatic might be on the horizon this year as well. So I guess we’ll see motion. If you times your Icilius by three, do you get three amounts of drama three times, I don’t know, I guess we’ll find out together. The other group that I have names for quaestors.
Dr Rad 09:15
you might say this.
Dr G 09:18
And in lieu of the fact that I have very little actual evidence to provide you. What I’ve done is I’ve gone through the names of the quaestors to try and sort of place them in the broader scheme of like, what might be going on in Rome, with Roman families.
Dr Rad 09:34
I always love when you do this, because as you know, anything to do with Latin, including names is not my strong point.
Dr G 09:42
And Look, I don’t think it’s really mine either. But I do enjoy sort of building a picture for myself, like where do all these characters fit? Yeah, because the names often end up sounding a little bit samey because the names all have the same kind of endings. And then, after a while, you’re like I’m sure I’ve heard this name before. But is it a different guy? So for just for like the sake of like trying to keep everybody straight in my head, I enjoy sort of delving into the family side of things. Absolutely. So our first quaestor is Publius Aelius. Now I Aelius is known as a plebeian gens
Dr Rad 10:24
I’m not going to give too much away, I’m just gonna react calmly.
Dr G 10:28
Calmly, calmly. And they do have a recorded history from around about this period. So the fourth century BCE, so jumping head just a few years into the next century, and all the way through into the late imperial period. So this is a family that has real longevity in terms of their history and legacy across generations. Now, we might be getting this name now, because of the associations the family takes on in the late Republic, okay. Now, I don’t know, I like I’m just, I’m talking really slowly because I’m waiting for you to be like, I’ll jump in and tell you what’s going on.
Dr Rad 11:13
I’m not gonna jump in at any point. I’m just gonna let you talk through all of these names and shock you.
Dr G 11:19
Okay, okay. I’ll prepare myself for the shock. Okay. So we have some figures, like Quintus Aelius Tubero, and this is heading into the this late Republican period who’s the nephew of Scipio Aemilianus. And he’s infamous or famous depending on which side of politics you’re on as an anti Gracchan figure. So somebody who’s like on the conservative side of politics, yeah, the Gracchi a very progressive and not everybody’s into that. And then there’s also a Quintus Aelius Tubero, same night name different guy. Yeah, who is a jurist and historian. And he wrote a 14 book Roman history from the foundation of Rome to the Punic Wars
Dr Rad 12:12
Suspicous.
Dr G 12:15
Well, this is really interesting, because we think that this Aelius Tubero is a common source for Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Aelius Tubero himself. Those books are no longer extant. Yeah, so anybody if you find a manuscript hiding in a monastery, you get in touch, yeah, get in touch. We’d be very excited historians everywhere would be very excited to find ideas to grow, but we think he’s utilised by both. So there’s a sense in which living and Dionysius are being influenced by an Aelius in their own writing. And so they probably have particular ideas about what Aelius’ are like in terms of their character and disposition. Okay, we move on our second quaestor is Kaeso Fabius Ambustus. Definitely a patrician, a fabulous Fabii. Yeah. And likely related to Quintus Fabius Ambustus, Vibulanus who was the consul of 412,
Dr Rad 13:19
I was gonna say this, this name feels like more familiar territory.
Dr G 13:24
Yeah, yeah. And I think the expectation is that you would assume that the quaestor was would be patrician at this point. So it is quite interesting that we do get a mix of names that seem to suggest that both patricians and plebeians were in the quaestorship this early on.
Dr Rad 13:42
I’m not gonna give in I’m gonna say
Dr G 13:46
just keep putting a little hoping that your bite. Okay, all right. Now third quaestor is Publius Papius. Now, this gens, the Papius gens is an italic gens. And you might think to yourself, yeah, but surely all genses are Italic genses us we’re talking about the Romans here. But when we’re talking about italic peoples, we’re generally talking about people beyond the Romans. Because we tend we tend to classify the Romans as their own thing, even though they’re clearly part of the broader italic community. But the Papius gens has connections to the Samnites and Oscan speakers. So this is thinking about the sort of the hilly region to the east of Rome, but also South heading towards compania in the same sort of mountainous region. This is really the Oscan speaker kind of territory, they’ee plebeian, considered to be plebeian. And then we also see the Papii family go on to hold positions of tribune of the plebs. So there’s some spoilers for you, dear listeners, coming up in a podcast near you, but the Samnites I think we We’ve mentioned them maybe just an episode or so ago, well, they
Dr Rad 15:04
are going to become a regular feature this time. Now
Dr G 15:08
that they’ve sort of entered in to being mentioned, they’re going to continue to be mentioned, they are going to grow to be quite important to the way the Romans understand themselves. And
Dr Rad 15:20
they must be crushed up to G. Let me make that clear, they must be crushed,
Dr G 15:25
we may have a series of conflicts known as the Samnite wars coming your way soon, in the next century.
Dr Rad 15:32
It does make sense we have talked about the fact that they are possibly on the move a bit in this time period, that there’s a bit bit more of them coming into rooms or bet in this time period, which is I think, the kind of stuff that’s been coming up so far more complex. Yeah.
Dr G 15:50
And I think this gives us a sense that Rome and its influence is not just constrained to Latin speakers, this idea of the foundation of the city, which although we might think of it as being quite mythic, this idea of Rome as a place of asylum, it does seem to be the case that people are moving around, bringing their family history with them retaining their identity, and then also becoming integrated into a Roman social mindset and then gaining political currency within Rome. Yeah. So Rome itself has this history of cosmopolitanism that stems back really quite early into its history. Yes, it’s not. So it might help explain some of the things that happen with Roman citizenship later on. Absolutely. Our last quaestor Quintus Silius. Though the temptation to pronounce it as Silius is quite high,
Dr Rad 16:48
I was gonna say, I’m disappointed in you, you’re not the co host I thought you were.
Dr G 16:54
really missing all my opportunities. Quintus Silius, as we shall call him. Silius is a plebeian gens Well, of course, he’s Silius. This is how the patricians keep you down.
Dr Rad 17:12
What’s in a name? I’ll tell you what’s in it.
Dr G 17:15
It’s ridiculous. I tell you, he’s very silly. And I refuse to call him anything else. We’re not really sure about this guy. I put it to you that Livy seems to be our key source here. And
Dr Rad 17:29
I think I’ve been proving that fairly emphatically.
Dr G 17:35
I’m agreeing with your Dr Rad. That was me agreeing with you. I think I think maybe we’re misleading each other. So the trouble with this is that the Silius gens seems to only really come into prominence in the first century BCE, which is a good 300 400 years away from where we are now. And the question might be asked, What the hell is a Silius doing this early?
Dr Rad 18:11
I’ll tell you, he’s got late Republican ancestors, and I’m like, quick, put my family like way back as an ancestor somewhere,
Dr G 18:21
please. I mean, the phrase insert an ancestor does, it leads me down dark paths, but I’m not gonna mention what I’m visualising.
Dr Rad 18:30
Romans are always open for that Kind of foreplay.
Dr G 18:37
Well, that is all that I have on the names. I’ve got other things to talk about. But I think I should defer to you and what is actually going on in this year with any of these people. Can you help me now? I
Dr Rad 18:48
think I set this up really well. And I’m loving the family details here confirms a lot, I think. Excellent. All right. So here we are. We’ve got consuls being elected. Now Livy tells me that never before have the plebeians been so upset that they were not allowed to elect military tribunes, which implies that the patricians were correct to suspect that this was going to be the year when they were finally angry enough to go for a plebeian candidate over a patrician candidate. If that kind of thing were allowed. So the audience therefore, act out that they have to share their frustration in some way. And the way that they do this strategy is that for the first time, they elect plebeians to the quaestorship we been talking about the conflict of the orders for so long. Finally, finally, allegedly, and probably mistakenly we have plebeians in the quaestorship. Oh,
Dr G 20:03
wow. Okay. I mean, I was just so confused. I was like, What are these plebeians during it here? Everybody knows this is not for them.
Dr Rad 20:11
Yeah, you are correct. You are correct that there was one token patrician was elected alongside little bands. That must have been a comfortable election for him.
Dr G 20:23
Every time he goes into the room to sit down with the other quaestors, he’s like, Man, this is a travesty.
Dr Rad 20:29
Exactly, exactly. And Livy does note that it is simply crazy that these three Plebeians Silius, I will adhere to your superior Latin. Aelius and Pupius, Papius is whatever his name is.
Dr G 20:48
Papius, I’m going with
Dr Rad 20:49
it. It does sound wrong to say Pupius. A lot of fun. It was crazy that they were selected over the years from and I quote, distinguished families, which is code of course for patrician family. Yes.
Dr G 21:08
How cruel. Yeah, well, when you put in some names in here, I can see that.
Dr Rad 21:16
Now Livy, therefore had to investigate how it was that the three men finally came to be elected. And he has uncovered that it was indeed the Icilii who were behind the whole plan. They were the men who motivated the plebeians to vote in this insane fashion. Wow.
Dr G 21:39
Okay, so this might help explain. We don’t have a complete list of tribune of the plebs. But the idea that there are many Icilii swaying the situation. It’s like a political coup is
Dr Rad 21:52
going on. I know. Well, as as we know, a couple of years ago, we were talking about an Icilius, who got elected to be tribune of the plebs, and he was pushing what may have been a very ambitious agenda. But It got cut short, because there was an outbreak of illness, and therefore he couldn’t really do anything. He was stymied, Dr. G. Hmm. And now however, when everyone’s Well, bouncing around being angry with the patricians, now is the time for them to revisit their radical programme on equal rights for all.
Dr G 22:33
Look, I wish them all the best. I don’t think I don’t think the patricians are gonna enjoy this at all, or let them get away with it for very long,
Dr Rad 22:43
man not enjoying this. So the Icilius as we know, as a family, one of their character traits, hatred of patricians
Dr G 22:53
classic
Dr Rad 22:55
Passed down in mother’s milk. Now the reason the reason why there is confusion, as you say is that Livy’s Does explicitly say that there were three men from this particular gens who are elected so that’s why I guess we have the question marks and Broughton where it’s like is it Icilius, Icilius, Icilius?
Dr G 23:15
that’s what I’ve got one of them is potentially Lucius, question mark, Icilius. And the others are just question mark, Icilius.
Dr Rad 23:22
No one who is rich should Look into a mirror and say, Icilius, Icilius, Icilius three times because it could get dangerous in there.
Dr G 23:30
You will summon the quest for equal rights
Dr Rad 23:34
and a more equitable world. So the Icilii I, I presume all of them, apparently made a lot of big promises about what would happen if plebeians could be elected. And the plebeians being stupid, just ate all of this up, as they always do, according to Livy. Now, I questioned this account, because if the plebeians did just lap up whatever promises were sent their way by Tribunes of the plebs, and you know weren’t at all critical of it and all that kind of stuff, then surely we would have actually had this happen in quite some time ago because they would have elected people a to be quaestors, but be to be military tribunes with consular power, that would just make sense. So I think Livy’s Being a douchebag Dr. G.
Dr G 24:28
Well, I’m glad that that came from you this time. Because I yeah, this. This is tricky. I mean, why the quaestorship instead of the military tribune with consular power. Like I can see that ultimately, you would want people in all of the positions, those positions to be all available to people regardless of their family background if they can accrue the support for their election, which would include definitely rich plebeians. families who can spend the money to Canvas and put together a kind of election sort of promotion of themselves. But the quaestorship is at this stage very much we think attached to the Treasury. Yeah. And the idea that the politicians would let this out of their sort of hands, I think is a little bit questionable. Like are you going to let the plebeians get their hands on the money?
Dr Rad 25:30
Well, this is where I think you see Livy’s or in time period, perhaps coming in and I think you’ll see what I mean in a moment, certain, the way that the Icilii had persuaded the plebeians, I think to elect one is that they basically said, Look, there’s three of us serving as tribunes. And we’re not going to lift a god damn finger, unless you people finally vote plebeian into office now, I’m just going to highlight once more, that doesn’t sound like a bunch of crazy promises. To me. It sounds like a hostage situation.
Dr G 26:04
Sounds a bit like a threat.
Dr Rad 26:08
Yeah, that’s how they really, I think, got the plebeians over the line and got the plebeians to elect someone from their own class. I hate using that word to describe the bands. But
Dr G 26:21
I think this reflects a big deal of our issue with this whole period of Rome’s history, which is we don’t understand how the society is structured, necessarily, except that we know that some families are more prominent than other families. But the idea that there is a sort of a class unity doesn’t seem to be borne out by our evidence, like Livy and Dionysius have been trying to promote this idea of the class struggle, because clearly the way that class works in the late Republic, it’s pretty intense. Yeah. But the way that things are working here, we get the suggestion in most of our written sources that there is this struggle happening, which is failing to manifest as proper struggle, because the plebeians and I’m using my flesh rabbits, that plebeians fail consistently, to vote for their class. Exactly. So I think this leaves us with a situation where maybe class isn’t the best way to read any of this. And what Livy and Dionysus are doing is trying to shoehorn these things into a narrative. And I think then the further trouble if we’re looking even like more 1000s of years ahead, is that then we get a scholarship from the modern period that tries to read all of this within a Marxist lens as well, because Marxism is very much about class struggle. Sure. So that’s a whole nother layer of sort of class confusion, if you like, because people seem to be interested in their families getting ahead. Absolutely. It’s about it’s about their gens. And what we might be seeing is the real struggle that some genses, gentes in the Latin but I always say genses, because I like it. Some genses is having one accruing the sort of leverage that they need in terms of popular support in order to get elected in the first place.
Dr Rad 28:30
Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s been a while since we’ve talked about this, I think but there certainly has been times when we’ve been talking about consul, I think particularly so it really has been a while but I remember there being some names that we mentioned, for Consular positions. And there was definitely some question marks about whether they were actually patrician family names. Hmm, yes, yeah. And we talked about that. So go back and listen to it because I’m not gonna do it now. If obedience, I feeling pretty chuffed. They feel like they’ve really accomplished a lot, even though they haven’t elected everybody in to the premier position in the state at this point in time. No military Tribune with consular power has been pulled in officially, they still feel like they’ve won Dr. G. They’ve won the larger battle here.
Dr G 29:26
They’re chipping away at the seats of power. They’ll get there just your weight yet
Dr Rad 29:31
and leave you kind of scuffs at this at this point in time because he says, pathetic. Were they really considering what a classic could do? They have a pretty limited office. Clearly, these fools were thinking that the quest to ship was some sort of stepping stone to having plebeians as consuls and getting their own triumphs.
Dr G 29:56
Oh, Livy’s Yeah, we’re gonna have a cursus honoroum emerge, It’s just not that bad.
Dr Rad 30:01
I know I will do this is where I feel like maybe some of the light Republican vibes are kind of coming through in that, oh, maybe he generally does know more than we do. And he’s just not told us very clearly exactly what a quest entails at this point in time. Like, I do understand that there are connections with money. But I do also understand that given the way that Livy’s talked about it, it does seem to be kind of a bureaucrat. Yeah,
Dr G 30:28
yeah. And I guess my question is, as well, and I don’t have a good answer to this right now. But the quaestorship, generally, if we’re thinking about it in terms of like, funds, and managing sort of the Fiscus, and things like that, which it becomes known as, maybe that’s not exactly what it’s doing at this point in time. But even so, they are somebody who is likely attached, either in a military capacity going around with legions, or maybe attached to the consulship. And why is there four of them right now, when we only have two consuls? So there’s, what do we not know there’s a bunch of missing information here. As far as I’m concerned. I was like, Do we have some praetors that they’re attached to, but when they’re not being mentioned? What is it exactly that Christ was doing right now? I’ll tell you, we really need four of them.
Dr Rad 31:26
They’re saving patricians from a lot of red tape. I think we’ve established that family clearly. Yes,
Dr G 31:32
the paperwork side of things. Yeah. And how much paperwork could there be? The Romans, they love paperwork.
Dr Rad 31:39
So now we get to my favourite part of the story. The patricians are furious. I mean, it’s bad enough that the plebeians were theoretically allowed to be elected. But now they actually have to share the office of quaestor in reality? disgusting
Dr G 32:00
horrifying. Yeah,
Dr Rad 32:02
so now the patricians are feeling like it would actually be immoral for them to even have children, because their children would have to witness the horror, the horror of seeing dirty little plebeians taking their rightful place in the world. I mean, how can a parent actually subject their child to seeing oh my god, like the office of quaestor being occupied by a plebeian, you know, my God
Dr G 32:35
I would rather bear witness to this like this is gonna take everything
Dr Rad 32:43
that you do they get to take everything they get to take a position before you know it like, what are patricians gonna have left? I mean, all they will have left are the sacrifices, Dr. G the sacrifices?!
Dr G 32:55
Guys, guys, I’m gonna have to sell my Ferrari there’s no point trying to impress the young patrician ladies anymore.
Dr Rad 33:02
I know I’m not gonna live in a big batch it I think I get very upset. But all they’re gonna have is their roles as the salii and the flamens on behalf of the people, which as you would know better than most people. priesthood positions, they
Dr G 33:28
are very important because you must keep your relationship with the gods sound. But it’s going to be a problem for the patricians if they do not reproduce.
Dr Rad 33:38
Well, I mean, I guess it’s a bit like how some people feel about having children in a climate emergency such as we live in right now. That’s how the patricians literally see it as being the end of the world whereas we actually are contemplating the end of the world.
Dr G 33:58
Yeah, it is tragic. Any action you can take the listeners to help preserve our beautiful home. We trust that you will take it Yeah.
Dr Rad 34:06
Well, the patricians are prepared to take action, Dr G.
Dr G 34:10
Let us take the patrician example as our model of excellence.
Dr Rad 34:14
Yep. So anyway, so both the plebeians and patricians are therefore in a state of complete emotional overload, the pavilions are on a super high, because they are just so frickin thrilled that they’re plebeians in office. And they do they do indeed see this as we finally pop that cherry, take that step. This is just gonna be a sign of greater things to come that they are, yeah,
Dr G 34:38
I can just imagine the plebeian quaestors being like, Guys, I’ve seen money for the first time. It’s incredible.
Dr Rad 34:45
Yeah, flying high. The patrician see this as complete and utter Doom, the beginning of the end. There’s no other way of saying it. It
Dr G 34:55
is the end of times. It’s been great while we’ve been here, but it’s all Ever now 100 years is all we had? Yeah.
Dr Rad 35:03
So this leads to another classic conflicts, which is very similar to the one we had the year before. Where the patricians are therefore, absolutely 100% determined that there are going to be consular elections held Fair enough. You gotta you gotta keep the main power in the patrician hands. This is dire times. Exactly. I mean, it’s the only way that they’re going to be able to continue to have sex and have children clearly. The Achillea on the other hand, are absolutely determined that it’s going to be military tribute and whose conceal the power, because they do think that this is going to be the time that Kobe and is going to get elected into that office.
Dr G 35:42
We’re so close guys, we’ve got them into the quaestorship. We’re all over the tribune of the plebs. Next up the top job.
Dr Rad 35:50
Exactly. Yeah. However, as luck would have it, Dr G, the Aequians and the Volscians enter our story.
Dr G 36:02
So okay, the Aequians and the Volsci.
Dr Rad 36:05
All right. Yes. Yes.
Dr G 36:06
Can I pause us here just to give us a sense of like, where we are in the geography of
Dr Rad 36:12
things. Absolutely. Tell me San Diego, where are we?
Dr G 36:15
I will put up my little hat. Yeah, yeah. So the Aequians thought to be the, to the east of Rome. So this is classic near where this Carventum location is we’re not really quite sure. The Volscians are to the south east. And the Hernicians are kind of wedged into the in between those two. Yeah. And that’s Rome’s ally. So that’s great. Yeah the Herncians are one of these Oscan speaking peoples and so while the Volscians Yeah, the Aequians though, maybe a slightly different language group. We then have the Latin peoples in general, which includes the Romans, yeah. And they’re kind of demarcated by the Tiber River, which cuts sort of East West, and the Arnio tributary, which is a bit of a north south tributary River. Now the Etruscans are the neighbours to the north, anything above the Tiber. We’ve also got the Faliscans who have come up a little bit so far there to the north and northeast, and thought to be connected to the Etruscans. We’ve also got likewise a little bit further out the sabae finds also to the northeast, but beyond the fullest skins. And everything sort of South East beyond the fall skins is also considered to be Oscan speaking. So Rome is kind of surrounded by a whole bunch of different people who could cause them problems. And the Aequians Oh, Volscians are definitely the closest in the east and the south east that are causing problems at the moment.
Dr Rad 37:53
Definitely. Yeah. So they cause problems specifically in this year by attacking the territory of the Latins and the Hernicians How dare they? I know. So Rome’s allies, clearly, therefore, the council’s had to raise an army and the Senate gives the order, go and conduct the levy. Now, I think you probably know where I’m going with this story. You’d be
Dr G 38:19
surprised that I might not.
Dr Rad 38:22
Well, the tribune of the plebs fight the levee, because, of course, that’s their, that’s their way of resisting and trying to, you know, get what they want, which is elections for military champions with consular power. So they are giving it everything they have, and they are thrilled, actually, that external conflict has arisen, and therefore, once again, that petitions need something from them, and they can withhold it until they get what they want. I think they would very much understand the tactic of like using sex as a weapon. It’s well,
Dr G 38:59
you got to use what you got. And when you’re the tribune of the plebs resistance is key resisting that levy is a powerful move. Yeah.
Dr Rad 39:08
So Livy’s very specific that all three of the Icilii tribunes getting involved here. The plebeians see them as the most noble family that they have on their side. He’s like, I mean, they may as well almost be patrician which is like saying a lot as far as the plebeians are concerned, because they’re just that elite.
Dr G 39:30
Wow, that’s almost offensive. How dare they?
Dr Rad 39:33
Yeah. Now again, this is my second favourite part strategy. Two of the Icilian tribune of the plebs take on the job of essentially tailing the consul around room. Cue the Pink Panther music. They get their sunglasses on. They’ve got their trench coats on, they’ve got their slouch hats.
Dr G 39:57
I love it. So because the contents will be going around presumably with some lictors and then trailing a little bit further behind.
Dr Rad 40:05
I guess that makes it makes it easier and you know, it’s easier to hide in a crowd. It is. Now the third Icilii, I, you might be wondering, what is he up to? Why is he not in a trench coat? Well, his job is to stir up the plebeians. So making sure that he’s, I suppose, keeping their emotions high over these sorts of issues, you know, pushing them to demand what is theirs, and to act in a way that’s going to support what they’re trying to enact here.
Dr G 40:38
Yeah, sounds good. Sounds good. Yeah. Good to have somebody whipping up that crowd.
Dr Rad 40:42
Exactly. Yeah. So he’s, he’s like crowd control while the others are trying to
Dr G 40:46
blend in. Is he wearing a trench coat just to keep, like up with the brothers. You know,
Dr Rad 40:52
I know. I feel like he must have been in this cabinet just in case. Maybe they maybe they switch out. Alright, so the consuls are therefore prevented from raising the levy. And the tribunes are unable to get what they want, which is the election of the military Tribune, because nobody is going to give because that’s just how the conflict of the orders works
Dr G 41:16
beginning to sound like a terrible stalemate while the enemy inches ever closer.
Dr Rad 41:21
Oh, tell me about it. It was looking like the plebeians were going to get what they wanted. But then dramatic news bulletin on the six o’clock news,
Dr G 41:36
breaking news, breaking news we have incoming from Rome. We’ve got somebody on the street, throwing to our local reporter now. The Aequians
Dr Rad 41:45
have attacked the Roman garrison left behind at the citadel of Carventum When the men there had left to raid even though it was proven before that that was a dumb idea, because that’s how they got Carventum in the first place. Oh, no. That’s few men who have been left behind on guard have been killed, I repeat have been killed. And it has been recaptured by the Aequians. That’s right. Carventum has been lost. I repeat, Carventum has fallen. Carventum has fallen. We don’t know where it is. But it’s
Dr G 42:16
disappeared back behind. It’s in its cloud of invisibility.
Dr Rad 42:20
Yeah. Now, some more Roman soldiers had died in this battle. Because of course, when they saw the Aequians taking it back, they’d be like, Hold it right there. Drop it, we drop that citadel. But unfortunately, there weren’t enough of them. I guess they were pretty scattered. If they were, you know, at raiding, and they were maybe coming back in bits and pieces and that sort of thing. So they were killed trying to recapture the Citadel or keep a hold of it. There were others out in the field, who apparently were randomly killed and that sort of thing. This narrative is a little bit confusing, I suppose. But I think the bottom line is that the Romans had perhaps left this mostly unattended, and they were killed, because they were trying to get back in. It doesn’t really make sense, I suppose.
Dr G 43:08
Yeah, it sounds like they maybe weren’t on high military alert. So they were just doing the sorts of things that you do when you’re a military that has to hold somewhere. But you don’t have like a standing order to be in defence where you’re like, well, we need to go out foraging and we need to do some field work. We’ve got to eat and, you know, you end up doing other jobs. And people like, oh, well, we could fix this place up if we just had a nicer log of wood. And we could prop it over here. Like let’s do some renovations.
Dr Rad 43:37
You know? Yeah. And if you’re in for the long haul, yeah, actually, yeah. And so people
Dr G 43:41
get distracted, and maybe they’re they got caught unawares, and they weren’t at all ready. And if you’re not in the Citadel, when the Citadel gets attacked, that’s a huge problem, because that’s a massive defensive structure. And to get back into it, when it’s being attacked already from the exterior, your chances of surviving aren’t great.
Dr Rad 44:04
Yeah, absolutely. So the champions of the playoffs with this news backed bleeded stop opposing the levy. You’ve got to we’re in a really bad situation right now. But they stand strong Dr G, they valiantly refuse and they say, You know what? We could like give two hoots about the danger that the state is in and we don’t care if everybody hates us. This is our job. And we’re not budging. This is exactly what you always do. And we always give in because it’s so dangerous out there. But not this time.
Dr G 44:42
Oh, this is a brazen position. How is this gonna work out?
Dr Rad 44:46
Well, I’ll tell you how it works out. It freakin works. They win. Yeah.
Dr G 44:51
That was unexpected. And
Dr Rad 44:54
quick, I know, but I couldn’t really string out any fear that they win, because there’s no other option here I guess. So it’s to say added that the next year there’s going to be military treatments with consular power being elected on condition. This is very important read the fine print. Okay, scroll down. Check it. No one is allowed to run for military tribune with consular power for 408, who had been tribune of the particular year. And no tribune of the plebs could be reelected the next year. So the patricians are like right, we want your one none of you Icilii, I are allowed to serve as tribune of the plebs in 408. And none of you are allowed to stand for this office. That’s the compromise.
Dr G 45:45
That’s a pretty big concession, I think from the patricians in it, which gives a sense of just how strong the support for the Icilii has been across the sort of years so far.
Dr Rad 46:00
Absolutely. The Senate 100% aiming to get this family out of play politically, they want them gone. And they want the people to hate them. They are 100% convinced that this family have the consulship in their sights, you know, they want to be like the first for the and family to hold the consulship like some kind of ridiculous reward for being giant pains in the ass.
Dr G 46:30
Well, that would make them very similar to the patricians would not
Dr Rad 46:34
write like anything. They should see the similarity. Yeah, because we’re in this together. These are all kinds of people. Yeah. So as a result, this means that the levy can finally proceed, because everybody is happy with this. Yeah, the Icilii are like, check! Well, you will take that, and they are getting getting ready for war. Everyone is on board. Now, there’s a little bit of doubt about exactly how the campaign plays out. Livy is unsure if both of the consuls are sent to Carventum, or whether one is sent out and one remains in Rome to run elections. Live. He notes that he has different accounts in his sources. Does he go into further detail? No, he does not.
Dr G 47:18
Livy’s So tantalising.
Dr Rad 47:21
Yeah, levy can only be certain that the Romans did not win back the Citadel at Carventum, but instead had to hang out there in a very long siege, which went No. Oh, okay.
Dr G 47:34
So yeah, they they got the army out there. And it was a bit of a stalemate in the end. Yeah.
Dr Rad 47:40
Okay. Instead, the Romans decided that they’re going to recapture Verrugo, which is a Volscian, in the Volscian. area, again, just to irritate their enemy.
Dr G 47:53
Yeah, if if we can’t have convinced them back then read definitely taking Verrugo. Yeah.
Dr Rad 47:59
And this is a huge blow apparently to the Volscians in the Aequians. Because when they take Verrugo, they get a lot of bootay. Oh,
Dr G 48:08
interesting. Okay, so that’s where the Volscians had taken it all out of Carventum. And sounds like maybe they just stored it in Verrugo. Okay, well, okay, so it’s not as clever as it previously seemed that there was no booty to be had with the original taking of Carventum. So Verrugo is the is the place that came up for us in 423. And the moment that Sempronius Atratinus lost a battle against the Volscians, and when the day was saved by the plebeian decurion, Sextus, Tempanius. Who could forget
Dr Rad 48:47
Yeah, I did but.
Dr G 48:51
But this has changed hands a number of times now because it was recon reconquered by the Volscii in 422. And now the Romans have just taken it back again. 409. So this particular location seems to be quite sought after now that people have started attacking it. And it’s just sort of going either way, depending on what’s going on.
Dr Rad 49:16
I think this is my hot tip. If you do time travel, dear listeners back to this time period, because clearly, why wouldn’t you it’s a delightful time to be alive. Do not choose Verrugo as your place of residence. I suspect it’s probably pretty unpleasant. Well,
Dr G 49:31
and also like it doesn’t sound like a great place like Verrugo rolls off the tongue badly, I think. I mean, it doesn’t feel like it doesn’t conjure great things for me. Yeah.
Dr Rad 49:42
And that’s going to be people’s main concern and this constant warfare. How it rolls off the tongue
Dr G 49:48
Exactly. Like it doesn’t sound like a holiday town.
Dr Rad 49:51
Yeah, like when you were screaming, oh, my God. Take it again and my children have just been massacred in the streets. You’re gonna be concerned that it doesn’t roll off the tongue easily.
Dr G 50:01
Wow. You know, everybody has their preferences. That’s all I can say.
Dr Rad 50:07
All right, well, at least it’s not Crustumerium.
Dr G 50:10
Crustumerium also a classic. I love the
Dr Rad 50:13
disease of a town to live. And so that’s all I have for this year, Dr. G. But I think you’ll agree. What a year.
Dr G 50:22
is actually ended up being a far more significant year than I suspected it was going to be with this transition of the plebeians into the quaestorship, which was not expected at all. Now, before we get into the partial pick, I just want to give you a sense of the broader world politics right now. via a detour into Diodorus Siculus.
Dr Rad 50:48
Ooh, the man who sometimes gets the names of the consuls, correct?
Dr G 50:53
Yeah. So Carthage is having a bit of a situation with Sicily. And yes, we have talks about this. Yeah. So this has been going on for a few years now. Yeah. And ultimately, the Carthaginians want to take over Sicily. That’s their dream. They want to run that whole island. Really strategic, it’s going to be
Dr Rad 51:16
a mafia who doesn’t want this?
Dr G 51:18
I know, it’s a very popular spot and great in summer, so very much would recommend. Yeah, but they’ve elected a general Hannibal, not the Hannibal. And he has razed to the ground, a couple of cities in Sicily. So he’s had some success, and we like this takeover one by one, we’re going to raise the cities and just move across this island. But then he’s getting on in age as well. It’s Hannibal character. And he’s like, Look, I think, you know, I’ve had a couple of good city raisings. But I feel like I’m getting to the end of my days. And he appoints another general called human icon to take over the campaign against Sicily. So, whatever is happening into the south, this is all sort of, like, background sort of contextualization for the kinds of conflicts that we’re gonna see and maybe a couple of 100 years. I know right? That’s all I got.
Dr Rad 52:24
Yeah, I appreciate that. The context of the wider world because sometimes I feel like I can never get out of this boot okay, that means Dr. G, that it is time for the Partial Pick. All right, thank you very much Igor for sharing your dulcet tones. Dr. G, tell us what the partial pick is all about. All
Dr G 52:53
right, we are going to evaluate Rome against some of its own standards. So there’s going to be 10 Roman Golden Eagles up for grabs across five categories. So ultimately, it’s going to be a mark out of 50 Roman golden eagles. Okay, so our first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 53:16
Hmm, well, it’s gonna be a bit of a downer as until
Dr G 53:21
they it was a stalemate. I believe.
Dr Rad 53:25
That’s true. They didn’t exactly get defeated. They just gave up. They certainly didn’t
Dr G 53:31
really win. Verrugo They took Verrugo. That’s true.
Dr Rad 53:37
And they did get booty and the Volscians Aequians. were unhappy about it. So that’s something that maybe I don’t know, like a fine. Yeah. Because it’s like when one lose one. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, it was not like they were really trying that hard to cover. And to me, it was a surprise attack. Clearly. They were clearly unprepared. Yeah, exactly. Okay, that’s a five. All right.
Dr G 53:59
Diplomacy. Do you negotiate? Really with your army? I think you do.
Dr Rad 54:06
Do you use threats to get what you want? Sometimes? Yeah. Yeah, I think that says, oh, food.
Dr G 54:14
Yeah, expansion. Now,
Dr Rad 54:18
I guess for rigour. Yeah,
Dr G 54:19
but if you lose Carventum, and you gain Verrugo,
Dr Rad 54:24
you end up at a zero.
Dr G 54:25
Is that a zero?
Dr Rad 54:26
I don’t know. I feel like do we start at 10? And it goes down to a five it’s hard to say
Dr G 54:31
or is it win some you lose some? Oh, do we need to know exactly how much territory was taken versus how much territory was lost?
Dr Rad 54:38
God, how are we ever gonna figure that out? We didn’t even know where Carventum is. It’s a tough one. Yeah, like I think it’s a fairly small scale at this point in time, so I don’t know I feel like
Dr G 54:47
I think we can give them a one for getting Verrugo But I don’t think we can give them heaps because they did lose Carventum, so they must have lost something as well. Yeah,
Dr Rad 54:57
I mean, very good. It was a spite capture.
Dr G 55:02
I caught Verrugo. It doesn’t sound good. Okay, so why All right, our fourth category is virtus.
Dr Rad 55:13
No good
Dr G 55:15
old fashioned Roman masculinity. I mean, Look,are the Icilii demonstrating it?
Dr Rad 55:21
I was gonna say, I mean kind of.
Dr G 55:24
no lighting and trench coats. But
Dr Rad 55:28
to be honest, if I could give points for that, I would,
Dr G 55:31
you might need to update the categories as we get further on.
Dr Rad 55:35
I said it, I said, a monkey. Look, I feel like the Icilii are actually kind of demonstrating virtus. But it’s not the kind of where to see patricians would particularly admire. But it is actually taking action. It is standing strong, but it’s not involved in obviously, like any sort of armed conflict, per se.
Dr G 55:58
Yeah, it kind of sits in a slightly different category, like and I think the trouble for us at this point is that if we had say, a big like sort of set speech from Livy, for one of these characters, we’d get to see how they position the arguments. And we might be able to make a case for we’re to us with those kinds of arguments that the two that were provided, but
Dr Rad 56:20
we really, we just did miss opportunity, isn’t it? Yeah,
Dr G 56:23
I Look, I don’t know why Livy doesn’t go down that track a little bit more often. I’ll tell
Dr Rad 56:27
you why. Because it took us forever. When
Dr G 56:31
we’re, as part of Dionysius, his charm, he was always keen to show off his rhetorical skill. And that gave us a lot of leverage for thinking about where to us. But when we don’t have those speeches, it does mean that we have to base it solely on the action that is recorded and passed on to us. And sometimes that’s a little bit more ambiguous. And it’s not necessarily clearly we’re tours. Yeah,
Dr Rad 56:55
that’s just in a long speech was made for which I have no evidence.
Dr G 57:00
I could do the old Thucydides on it. And it’s like, I’m just gonna put the words into their mouth that I thought they should say,
Dr Rad 57:08
exactly. I mean, what do you expect? I? I live in an ancient time guys, this new recorder? Yeah, I wasn’t doing my best. And I don’t know anybody who was alright, so just back off. Just listening to my story, doing the best that I can, and it’s going to be plenty accurate as you can get. Yeah,
Dr G 57:27
this is this is amazing journalism, given the circumstances. Our last category is the citizens score. Well, I
Dr Rad 57:36
think this is a category for us today. I mean, that plebeians are absolutely thrilled,
Dr G 57:43
they finally quaestors. Look at him go.
Dr Rad 57:46
I know, I mean, there’s not much else that could be better apart from being a military Tribune or a consul. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. You
Dr G 57:55
know, one step closer is one step closer, and there’s lots of them in the quaestorship. There’s a really strong sense of the iqi. Looking after the little guy by delaying the levy. Now, there is a point – through threats and being incredibly stubborn. But there is also a point where delaying the levee can lead to the risk of the citizens if the enemy gets too close to Rome. So it’s a fine line.
Dr Rad 58:22
It is, but I think that it’s it doesn’t seem like it’s that.
Dr G 58:35
No, it seems fun. We don’t know where these places are. So they can’t be close to Rome.
Dr Rad 58:41
It’s a fine line between pleasure and pain. But yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like the people would have been more freaked out if they actually thought they were in danger. Because if we’ve learned nothing from Livy’s account, the Romans actually panic quite easily when they hear bad military news..
Dr G 59:00
And there is a tendency for the plebeians to capitulate on their demands as soon as they think there’s a risk to their lives, which is fair enough.
Dr Rad 59:10
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s what I mean. Like the minute we ever hear of like a military disaster being reported back in the city, they lose their freakin minds. They’re running around all over the place. The person who’s left in charge, it’s like, holy crap, how am I gonna get this crowd under control? So the fact that they’re not doing that
Dr G 59:28
as part human part chicken
Dr Rad 59:32
that’s how that plebeians portrayed I think, and maybe
Dr G 59:36
there’s just chickens running around everywhere in the city. Yeah,
Dr Rad 59:39
so Look, I feel like I’m gonna give this an EIGHT Yeah, all right.
Dr G 59:45
I’m not gonna quibble with that. I think the citizens need some bucking up so happy to have had a good run this year. Let’s face it.
Dr Rad 59:55
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don’t really see much that is bad about this. Yeah, I’m I’m happy for them. And you know what? I’d also like to say Dr. G, once again, because I’m a broken record on these sorts of matters. But I took pictures as the events of 409 may, in fact, actually be, it is heartening to read about stories where people are willing to, you know, put it all on the line and their protest movement. And to see how when you actually put your mind to it, and you have unity, you can accomplish your goals, no matter how impossible it may seem, I
Dr G 1:00:35
sense that you’re making a bigger claim about the world today through the power of what we can learn from history, and I applaud you, there is a huge people power and strengthen community and community action. That is how you make change.
Dr Rad 1:00:50
Absolutely. I mean, they have done studies on this, which obviously don’t directly apply to a room, but looking at all sorts of people power moments, like civil rights movements, and people petitioning for political rights and that sort of thing. And it’s shown that you actually only need a very small percentage of a population to be on board with something. But you just need like, you just need to get to like a certain level, a certain small level for people to be on board, to be supporting it to be campaigning it to stand unified to actually achieve change. And I think that we should wear this particular example into that basket, because, of course, the patricians aren’t on board. In fact, I would wager that not even all the plebeians are on board, because as we’ve highlighted before, they are not like this unified class. Okay. There are people that have different interests. I mean, where the hell are the other Tribune’s in their story who don’t
Dr G 1:01:45
even get a mention, but they don’t. It’s amazing that would the ones that we have named, we’re still talking about, presumably a small group of individuals with space. So yeah, pretty amazing stuff.
Dr Rad 1:02:00
Absolutely. Don’t lose hope guys. Get involved with some groups show people that you care talk about it. In history of the early republic has shown us anything, talking about it endlessly. Eventually, we’ll get into some way it went long as you combine it with stubbornness, be
Dr G 1:02:20
resilient, know your values and fight for what is good and right, indeed.
Dr Rad 1:02:25
All right. So that means Dr. G, that we have got the Romans finishing 409 on a grand total of 14 Golden Eagles. Actually, that’s
Dr G 1:02:36
pretty impressive.
Dr Rad 1:02:37
It’s not bad. It’s been a lot worse. It has.
Dr G 1:02:42
Rome, you’re going up in my estimation.
Dr Rad 1:02:45
Yeah. And we’ve obviously got potentially a very exciting year ahead of a strategy because with military Tribune with connsular power elections lying ahead, and a plebeian quaestor. In fact, sorry, I shouldn’t say a several plebeian quaestors elected in 409. What does the future hold?
Dr G 1:03:08
Well, we will find out soon. Ciao.
Dr Rad 1:03:21
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. and today we’d like to say a special hello to some of our patrons who entered our second alien giveaway. Alex, AJ, Dr. Kate, Dendrio, Kylie, Vincent, Dana Gray and RS Laugesen and of course Kyle De Cant. However, you can also support our show by buying us a coffee on Kofi. However, if those coins just aren’t jangling in your pocket these days please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for our book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome
The Partial Recap – 410s BCE
Dec 07, 2023
What a confusing decade the 410s have been. It’s definitely time for a Partial Recap! We run through what the ancient sources tell us about this decade.
Dr Rad – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 410s BCE!
Dr G – I’m Dr G
Dr Rad: and I’m Dr Rad
Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 410s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 419 to 410 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one.
Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino.
419 BCE
In 419 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Agrippa Menenius Lanatus, Publius Lucretius Hosti Tricipitunus, Spurius Nautius Rutilus and Gaius Servilius Axilla.
This was a year of high drama, mama!
Some of the slaves in Rome decided to stage a pretty audacious uprising – setting fires all over the city and then taking control of the Capitol whilst everyone else was distracted.
Naturally, Rome’s best bud – Jupiter – made sure their plot failed.
In other words, some of the slaves turned informer and were rewarded with their freedom and a healthy bonus
As for the rest of the slaves – they were simply showered with attention – of the sharp and pointy kind. It’s a sad tale that does not end well.
The Aequians and the Labici started rumbling in the distance this year – there was no major military action, but the Romans had their eyes peeled.
418 BCE
In 418 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Lucius Sergius Fidenas, Marcus Papirius Mugillanus, and Caius Servilius Axilla.
Ambassadors from Tusculum arrived in Rome in this year with very expected news – the Labicani were ready for war. They were so ready, they had already teamed up with the Aequians and started attacking areas in the countryside.
The Romans did not need to hear any more – it was war!
The Senate dispatched two of the military tribunes to campaign whilst one would remain in the city.
The military tribunes immediately started slappy-fighting over who got to command the armies
Quintus Servilius – the dictator who had captured the slippery city of Fidenae and father of one of the military tribunes – had to step in and send them all to their rooms whilst he sorted out the mess.
Servilius placed his son in charge of Rome and packed off the other military tribunes with a hefty smack around the ears and some stern marching orders – “You’ve bragged an awful lot about yourselves so – You’d better WERK!”
Almost as though the ROmans knew something was going to go wrong, only ten tribes were levied – and it was just as well because the military tribunes started swinging their ….swords around before they had even left the city.
They could not agree on anything – the struggle was real.
Things were so out of control that their lieutenants had to insist that the military tribunes held supreme command on alternate days
Now, none of Rome’s wars happened very far away, so word made its way back to the city.
Quintus Servilius told his son to get ready – disaster was on the horizon.
Sure enough, Sergius ended up falling for the Meryl Streep performance given by the Aequians in an engagement and many of his men were slaughtered.
The following day, the Roman camp was almost entirely surrounded and they had to abandon ship. OH THE SHAME!
The leaders managed to grab their standards on the way out and headed for their most adorable allies – the Tusculans.
With the rest of the Roman forces scattered as they fled – confusing reports reached Rome
The general impression was – WORLD APOCALYPSE.
Thanks to the wise leadership of Daddy and Sonny Servilius, the rest of the tribes were levied and readied.
Sonny Servilius’ scouts tracked down the surviving soldiers at Tusculum, and it was a real morale booster to see that they were, you know, alive.
The Romans felt a little more positive, but they knew they weren’t out of danger yet! Just to be safe, Daddy Servilius was made dictator.
Servilius Snr chose Jnr to serve as his master of the horse – or perhaps he chose Mr Servilius Armpit (AHALA)?
The Servilii trotted off into the fray and wouldn’t you know it? The Aequians were so overly confident after winning that Oscar in the previous battle, they started to get sloppy.
In the very first engagement, Servilius Snr caused major disruption amongst the Aequian forces.
Just to prove that he was the most serious Servilii in the camp, Servilius Snr killed a standard-bearer who hesitated when he ordered his troops to advance quickly. There’s no time for thinking!!! Just act, now, move, move, move.
The Romans were feeling his energy and went full berserker
The Aequian defence collapsed and this time they were the ones running back to their camp in total disarray.
The Romans seized their camp and snatched that bootay.
Perhaps feeling like he could relax a tad, Servilius Snr allowed the soldiers to share the spoils.
The Romans had won the battle – but what about the war?
The Aequians had retreated to Labici, to hide with their allies – and the Romans soon showed up with a cake and some ladders.
Labici was pillaged, allowing Servilius Snr to lead his forces back to ROme, where he laid down his powers after eight days of exhilarating action. What a thrill ride!
The Senate were pleased, but they also knew that they needed to be on guard. Those tribunes of the plebs would want to get their greedy paws on that new land that had been conquered.
A quick decree was passed and a colony of 1500 was set up in Labici.
417 BCE and 416 BCE
In 417 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Publius Lucretius Hosti Tricipitinus, Agrippa Menenius Lanatus, Caius Servilius Axilla or Structus, Spurius Rutilius Crassus OR Spurius Veturius Crassus Cicurinus.
In 416 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Aulus Sempronius Atratinus, Marcus Papirius Mugillanus, Quintus Fabius Vibulanus, and Spurius Nautius Rutilus.
The events of these years blend together a bit, so be prepared for a double act.
As predicted, some tribunes of the plebs started making the most unreasonable of demands about land.
Spurius Maecilius and Marcus Metilius wanted a law that would divide captured land up amongst Roman citizens.
Does this make any sense at this point in time? Probably not! But it’s classic conflict of the orders stuff – the plebs not getting their fair share, concerns over land allotment, greedy patricians… just lean into the narrative and try to ignore those gaping holes in the story.
The Military Tribunes with consular power started chatting with the senators and other elite dudes – clearly, this was time for an EVIL PLAN.
Appius Claudius, descendant of the infamous decemvir, came forth to uphold his family legacy of douchebaggery
He suggested that they should keep it simple stupid! Just divide and conquer – convince the other tribune of the plebs to use their veto against their colleagues in exchange for patrician favour.
The snaky senators successfully won the wallflower tribune of the plebs over and sure enough, the law was vetoed.
All Maecilius and Metilius could do was call them CLASS TRAITORS and throw a huge hissy fit in front of an assembly.
415 BCE
In 415 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Publius Cornelius Cossus, Caius Valerius Volusi Potitus Volusus, Numerius or Marcus Fabius Vibulanus, and Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus.
Conflict was brewing with Veii AND the Aequians – but then both of them postponed the warfare for another day.
The people of Veii were scared away from a fight due to the flooding of the Tiber River, which ruined some of their farms.
The Aequians were still smarting from a previous defeat when they had been defending the Bolani – an Aequian tribe.
The Bolani seemed to have provoked battle by attacking the Labici and the new Roman colony, but hadn’t managed to secure a victory.
Lucius Decius, a tribune of the plebs, tried to push through an agrarian law that would send colonists to Bolae as well as Labici, but his fellow tribunes would not agree to a plebiscite without the Senate giving their okay.
Bolae would not be in Roman hands for long – so perhaps it was for the best!
414 BCE
In 414 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Cnaeus Cornelius Cossus, Lucius Valerius Potitus, Quintus Fabius Vibulanus and Publius Postumius Albinus Regillensis.
Postumius was placed in charge of a campaign against the Aequians, and he enjoyed a lot of success.
His troops seized Bolae and beat the Aequians without too much effort.
Unfortunately, Postumius continued the family tradition of stuffing up royally.
There was some confusion over exactly where it all went wrong, but it definitely had something to do with the war booty from the captured city.
Whether Postumius broke a promise about their share, or there was not enough in the city to please the army, the soldiers were Spurius Furius about the lack of goods.
Before the situation was resolved, Postumius was summoned back to Rome to deal with an uppity tribune of the plebs – the seductively named Marcus Sextius.
Sextius was pursuing Decius’ dream of colonists in Bolae. Give the land to those who bled for it!
Postumius could not help but make a nasty comment upon hearing about Sextius’ agrarian law – he essentially made a threat about those who fought under his command.
The Plebeian assembly and the Senate were seriously perturbed when they heard what had been said – their subligaculums were definitely in a twist!
Marcus Sextius made sure to bait Postumius – how dare he threaten his brave men? How DARE he even suggest that they be punished like mere slaves? And BTW – how are patrician twats still getting elected to the highest office when THIS is how they treat the people? #plebeianmilitarytribuneforoffice
However, the group that were most upset were the army back at Bolae.
The quaestor, Publius Sextius (or Sestius), picked up on the mutinous energy and decided that the situation called for a violent solution.
He used a lictor to arrest a brawling soldier – and surprise surprise – this only inflamed matters.
In the subsequent riot, the quaestor was either seriously injured or killed by a stone to the noggin.
Postumius had to return to Bolae to sort matters out.
He came with the trademark harshness of his gens, and decided to execute some of the ringleaders in a particularly painful way.
The cries of the condemned caught the attention of a crowd, and when Postumius and his forces tried to get the angry people under control, they turned on him – stoning him to death.
With one of the leading magistrates murdered in broad daylight, his colleagues quickly set up a senatorial inquiry into his death – but had to hit the brakes when the plebeian tribunes used their veto power.
Terrified that the plebeians were angry enough to elect one of their own as military tribune in 413 BCE, the senate tried to run consular elections.
Once more, the plebeian tribunes blocked their plans, and an interregnum ensued..
413 BCE
The interrex, Quintus Fabius Vibulanus, organised elections and so In 413 BCE, the consuls were Aulus Cornelius Cossus and Lucius Furius Medullinus.
A senatorial resolution was passed to investigate the death of Postumius.
Given how popular Postumius was, the investigators wisely only punished a few for their role in his murder – and most of them seem to have been allowed to commit suicide.
The plebs were not appeased – a lack of punishment cannot make up for a lack of agrarian reform, people!
Leaving the sulky atmosphere in Rome, the Volscians attacked Herncian territory and the consul Furius was dispatched to slap them back across the border.
The Volscians were nowhere to be found when Furius arrived, so instead he captured Ferentinum – just to annoy them.
There was a real lack of booty in the town – leading to a rather anticlimactic conquest that the Romans casually turned over to the Hernicians.
412 BCE
In 412 BCE, the consuls were Quintus Fabius Ambustus Vibulanus and Gaius Furius Pacilus.
The real star of the year was one of the tribunes of the plebs – Lucius Icilius. You might recall this family as they have a history of being plebeian heroes.
Icilius tried to revive the old agrarian laws – but he did not get far as a pestilence hit ROme.
The population of Rome was not decimated but they were certainly way too sick to be worrying about politics.
411 BCE
In 411 BCE, the consuls were Marcus Papirius Atratinus and Gaius Nautius Rutulus.
After the outbreak in 412, Rome was in danger of a famine.
Whilst some people were a little tight-fisted in this time of need (cough cough – Samnites) – others made sure that the Romans were well-supplied.
410 BCE
In 410 BCE, the consuls were Marcus Aemilius Mamercinus and Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus.
The Aequians were gearing up for another bout with the Romans, and the Volscians were happy to sign on as their auxiliaries.
When they started attacking Latin & Herncian territory, the consul Valerius started conducting the levy.
In swept the tribune of the plebs – Marcus Menenius.
Seizing his moment, Menenius refused to let the levy proceed without an agrarian law FIRST.
Whilst the Romans squabbled, the citadel of Carventum was captured by the Aequians.
The patricians tried to use this loss to turn the people against Menenius
Playing on their divide and conquer tactic from earlier, the patricians had already managed to talk the rest of the tribunes into siding against Menenius – and his refusal to allow the levy after this loss provided them with an airtight excuse for their bizarre stance.
A Mexican stand-off ensued, with neither side willing to back down and a lot of hysterical posturing.
The rest of the tribunes decided to take a very dramatic step – publicly supporting Valerius’ right to use force and fines to get people to enlist in the army.
With this authority in hand, men who were refusing to enlist were dragged in front of the consul.
This example was enough to scare almost everyone else into signing up.
The Roman army was now able to march off to the citadel of Carventum,
It wasn’t the happiest union between commander and troops, but the ROmans got the job done.
The enemy was routed.
Valerius was not about to give the army the meager spoils after the trouble they caused, so the quaestors were put in charge of auctioning off the goods.
This endearing act meant that Valerius was showered with abuse during his ovation back in the city, whilst Menenius was showered with praise.
With all of these anti-patrician vibes in the air, the elite were looking around nervously and organizing consular elections for the next year.
Whilst our sources are clearly pushing the conflict between the orders, the Romans seem to be taking on a more aggressive policy of expansion in this decade – makes you wonder what lies ahead!
Dr Rad: And that was the 410s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at Episode 140: The Commonwealth of Slaves to join us for a deep dive into the 410s BCE.
Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!
Where in the World is Carventum?
Nov 16, 2023
Carventum enters the annalistic narrative of Rome and raises some questions. But in order to get there, we need to consider what Rome faces in 411 BCE. And it seems that the Roman elite are having a run on consuls recently, which, if we follow Livy, means that the plebeians continue to be locked out of the highest magistracy…
Episode 144 – Where in the World is Carventum?
411 BCE – A Year Better Forgotten?
Sadly there’s not much to report about 411 BCE and what there is to know if the kind of thing the Romans would probably rather forget. Turns out that there’s a pestilence on the loose! To compound problems, sick people can’t farm and this has compromised the harvest. Rome faces challenges to its grain supply and they turn to their neighbours for aid.
410 BCE gets off to a bad start when the Volsicans and Aequians decide to try to squeeze Rome’s allies the Hernicians… how will Rome respond? First they’ll have to find the citadel of Carventum (location unknown). And that’s only after they resolve the challenge of pulling together a fighting force.
Whenever there’s a tribune of the plebs, we can assume there’s going to be something going on between the elite families of Rome. The tribunes come into their own when there’s a military affair in the off-ing because they can push for rights and recognition for the plebeians in potential exchange for military service. Will the patricians negotiate land rights in order to field a force against the Volscians and the Aequians?
Map of central Italy including Rome and Praeneste, one of the theorised locations of Carventum to the east of Rome.
An ovatio with the a side of verbal abuse…
The Roman populace may be under the pump of the patricians much of the time, so perhaps a protest action at the scene of an ovatio is a very legitimate form of criticism! While Valerius attempts to process through the city to celebrate a military win, things don’t feel so much like a celebration as the people hurl abuse. Who will the crowd turn their support towards in the aftermath?
Things to Listen Out For:
Disagreements about Livy
What’s happening in the Mediterranean?
Who is Cassiodorus?
Samnites and Sicilians
A tribunician veto? In this economy?
What is the tribune of the plebs and how did this position really work in the early Republic?
Mercenaries????
What are the quaestors up to?
Our Players 411 BCE
Consuls
Marcus Papirius L. f. – n. Mugillanus (or Atratinus?) (Pat.)
Spurius (or Gaius) Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus (Pat.)
Our Players 410 BCE
Consuls
Manius Aemilius Mam. f. M. n. Mamercinus (Pat.)
Gaius Valerius (L. f. Vol. n.) Potitus Volusus (Pat.)
Tribune of the Plebs
Marcus Menenius
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy 4.52.2-4.53
Dr G reads Diodorus 13.68.1, 13.76.1; Cassiodorus Chronica
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Beta and Freesounds.
Crop from “A new map of Latium, Etruria, and as much of ancient Italy, as lay between Gallia Cisalpina and Græcia Magna, shewing their principal divisions, cities, towns, rivers, mountains &c.” Sheldonian Theatre (Publisher); Wells, Edward, 1667-1727 (Cartographer). Source: New York Public Library Digital Collections.
Automated Transcript
Edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Red,
Dr G 1:02 and I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:06 Welcome, Dr. G. I’m so excited to be back in this century with you.
Dr G 1:10 Woohoo. We’re nearly at the end of the fifth century BCE. It’s kind of incredible that we’ve made it so far.
Dr Rad 1:18 I know. I know. So welcome, everybody. Welcome to our world of ancient Rome. Here we are traipsing our way through the 410s BC as we look at Rome’s journey from the founding of the city. So Dr. G, before we head into a new episode, let’s do a bit of a recap, shall we? Where were we last time we met?
Dr G 1:42 Look, the big standout for me was the return of an Icilius into the role of the tribune of the plebs.
Dr Rad 1:51 That’s right. We have been dealing with all this conflict of the orders stuff for decades now. And I mean decades in the sense of the Romans decades.
Dr G 2:01 Maybe nearly a century now.
Dr Rad 2:03 A decade for us. But for them almost a century, this classic struggle between the patricians, the plebeians, who these people are, God only knows. But it certainly presented to us, like a battle between the elite and the powerful, and those who only wish they were.
Dr G 2:24 Yes, the old class struggle writ large in the early republic of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 2:30 Yeah, and Icilius is from a family that’s very much historically been on the plebeian side of things.
Dr G 2:37 Yeah, they famously a family that has held the tribunician of the plebs on a number of occasions, each of them landmark events in the struggle of the orders in this classic tale. And yet, what we seem to discover in this third iteration of an Icilius coming into the role is that the potential for revolutionary changes kind of swept away by other matters, there seems to be a pestilence of some kind.
Dr Rad 3:09 There is a pestilence, it’s not the worst pestilence that room has ever seen. Because you know, we’ve had some bad ones in the time that we’ve been talking. I remember that time there was meat falling from the sky. Worse. I think that was I think that was in like the 450s. Maybe, maybe I should have checked that before I brought it up. But yeah, so we’ve had some bad things happening in the past. This one’s not the worst, but it’s certainly serious enough that people are very much focused on just getting by day to day.
Dr G 3:37 And this kind of leaves Rome and the situation of where we’re up to with this history on tender hooks, if you will run with the meat analogy a little bit further with me, because we’re like, what, what’s going to happen in the next year, and luckily, we’re here together to find out.
Dr Rad 3:55 We are indeed so without further ado, let’s delve into 411 BCE.
Dr G 4:21 is 411 BCE. It’s a very thrilling time. We’ve this means we have new consuls.
Dr Rad 4:29 We do have consuls. Note that we still don’t have any military tribunes with consular power. I think the patricians are still feeling a little bit concerned about who might get elected if they opened that door.
Dr G 4:42 Yes, much better to make sure it’s a patrician only situation and what better way to do that. And by having consuls in power,
Dr Rad 4:53 Exactly. So who we got Dr. G.
Dr G 4:56 All right, we have Marcus Papirius. Mugillanus, possibly Atratinus We’re not really quite sure.
Dr Rad 5:06 So I think some of those names sound familiar.
Dr G 5:08 Yeah, some of those names sound familiar
Dr Rad 5:14 Have I ever heard Marcus mentioned on this podcast before?
Dr G 5:18 Never! And fair enough. I mean, it’s a very rare name. So this Marcus Papirius Mugillanus was previously the military tribune with consular power in 418 and also 416. So he’s in the middle of quite an illustrious career at this point.
Dr Rad 5:38 Yeah, this is his decade, the 410s.
Dr G 5:42 It’s happening for him. And he is joined by somebody known as Spurius or Gaius – we’re not quite sure of the praenomen of this fella – Nautius Rutilus.
Dr Rad 5:54 Oh behave.
Dr G 6:00 Spurius Naughtiness, what are you up to? He was previously military tribune with concular power in 419, and also served together with Papirius Mugillanus in 416. So these guys have even held the top job together before.
Dr Rad 6:17 And yet, we’re still not certain of their names.
Dr G 6:20 And we still don’t know whether they’re friends.
Dr Rad 6:24 I love the confusion of the source material. Everybody has different names, and nobody can figure out where they go.
Dr G 6:31 Yeah, and the Roman propensity for naming everybody after everybody else in their own family does leave a legacy of some confusion for everybody else studying them 1000s of years later.
Dr Rad 6:44 Absolutely. So what are these consuls facing Dr G? We’ve got a pestilence on the loose, we’ve got a tribune who’s just itching to get an agrarian law passed, it doesn’t bode well for them. I’m not going to lie. And sure enough, the year does not start well. As we know, when people are too sick to get out of bed, they tend not to farm. Lazy.
Dr G 7:07 How dare they? And the trouble with that is that it has some knock on consequences. Because if you don’t farm while you’re unwell, nobody does that farming for you. And then nobody’s got food to eat. So then not only are you sick and hungry, then you’re also starving.
Dr Rad 7:25 Exactly. And this has happened to Rome before after pestilence. We’ve seen this pattern again and again. And it looks like this year was going to be no different. Rome was in dire need of some corn, and it would have been headed straight for a very serious famine, except they asked around, they kind of pass the hat around and said, “Please, sir, I would like some corn,” to some of their neighbours.
Dr G 7:51 “Could you possibly spare any grain?”
Dr Rad 7:53 Yeah, exactly. They were asking up and down the Tiber. They apparently were like, you know, looking around the Tuscan Sea area saying, “Excuse me, I don’t suppose you have any surplus grain?”
Dr G 8:07 I suppose they do have some are friends in the local region? Of course everybody would trade with them.
Dr Rad 8:14 No, this is true. So specifically the Samnites, who at this point in time, well ensconced in Capua and Cumae, would not engage in trade with Rome even in this dangerous hour of need, Dr. G. For shame.
Dr G 8:32 Yes, look, the Samnite relationship with Rome is going to be a rocky one. Let’s put it that way.
Dr Rad 8:40 Yeah, foreshadowing, foreshadowing. Yeah, absolutely. I think
Dr G 8:44 We haven’t seen a lot of the Samnites in the Romans yet, but just you wait.
Dr Rad 8:48 Yeah, exactly. But the person that does apparently come to their rescue is and I’m quoting Livy here: Sicilian tyrants.
Dr G 8:59 Hmm. Fascinating. Well, that’s quite interesting, actually, because the Sicilian tyrants haven’t been having a great run of it themselves, because they’ve just been under the military invasion of the Carthaginians. So it’s not like they’re in a great way right now.
Dr Rad 9:17 Well, this is the thing, right? So most people have pointed out that Livy must be a bit off here because there actually aren’t any tyrants ruling Sicily in this year.
Dr G 9:27 Ah Livy. He’s a lair!
Dr Rad 9:30 Well, how dare you? How very dare you. Look, it’s possible like it’s close in time. It’s possible. Obviously, we’ve just got the order things slightly out of whack, and it is possible.
Dr G 9:47 You’re being very generous to Livy here.
Dr Rad 9:49 Well, look, let me put it this way. We’re fairly certain that the person that he’s referring to even though he does not name him is Dionysius the First, who came to power in 409. So you see it is very close.
Dr G 10:04 Very indeed. All right.
Dr Rad 10:05 Yeah. And it is very possible as well that the Sicilians would have been wanting to win Rome over as an ally at this point in time, because as you said, last episode, Dr. G, there’s some issues going on in Greece, a little thing known as the Peloponnesian War.
Dr G 10:29 There are some things going on in Greece. And one of the consequences of that is that the Greeks are trying to push their way into Sicily. That is one of the grounds in which some of the battles are taking place. There’s a Carthaginian interest also in Sicily. Sicily, historically, as I’m sure listeners are aware, is its location, right smack in the middle of the Mediterranean makes it kind of like a very strategic location for all concerned, who’s who live around that Mediterranean edge. So interest is high. Sicilia is facing various incursions from different directions. So maybe they are desperate, even if the tyrant is not quite in place yet.
Dr Rad 11:17 Yes, I think that’s exactly it with the Battle of Syracuse, which has just been waged in 413 BCE, or in the whole campaign sort of running from 415 to 413 BCE, as Athens is trying to strike out at people who are allied to the Spartans and supplying them with grain. And as you say, with Carthage rumbling around, and Carthage and Rome at this point in time are technically allies, it probably was a wise move for them to help root out whilst you know, Rome is looking around for some friends. No. Yeah. Now, most of the corn, however, comes from the Etruscans.
Dr G 12:00 Curiouser and curiouser.
Dr Rad 12:03 I know. So it seems that the Etruscans, who, by this stage are mostly located to the north of Rome, they obviously don’t want Rome to take their business elsewhere, i.e. Sicily.
Dr G 12:18 “How dare you? We’ve got the best prices on grain.”
Dr Rad 12:22 Yeah. And the Etruscans also have a hostile relationship with the Samnites. Because the Samnites have kind of displaced them in Campania.
Dr G 12:30 Typical typical, the local politics is starting to get messy around here.
Dr Rad 12:36 I know an all over corn.
Dr G 12:40 Well, you gotta eat, what can I say?
Dr Rad 12:42 Yeah. So that’s kind of about all the detail that I have in that basically, there was almost a very serious famine, but Rome managed to find some allies and managed to pull itself out of that, and the danger was averted. It does seem like there was a bit of a shortage of manpower, following on the back of the pestilence, it seems like the consuls need to bring in extra people to help them with things like embassies, because they just don’t have enough people who are available to help them out with the day to day administration. But that’s kind of it. So 411 is a very quiet year. But don’t you worry, we’re about to enter 410 And we’re about to get some serious developments happening.
Dr G 13:29 Well, before we enter into 410, just to give you a sense of just how thin on the ground, my source material is currently-
Dr Rad 13:38 You’re joking. You don’t have any source material?
Dr G 13:42 I know I’ve been chatting about Sicily for like 10 minutes now, but I know nothing! So, in 411, the Fasti Capitolini is missing. So that’s our big list of consuls and magistrates.
Dr Rad 13:57 Yeah. Which explains why we have all the issues with the names. Yeah.
Dr G 14:00 Well, yeah, we’ll explain some of it for sure. Yeah. And then I have Diodorus Siculus, who we’ve talked about recently, is useless, but he comes and goes in terms of accuracy. And when nobody else was around, he gets to be very accurate because he’s the only one who’s got the names.
Dr Rad 14:20 This is true.
Dr G 14:21 That that may or may not mean that he’s correct. But nevertheless, so he has Mamercus Papirius and Spurius Nautius listed. Now there is the ongoing date discrepancy that happens with Diodorus Siculus. Because he always tells us the consuls in the same sentence as he tells us who’s the current eponymous Archon in Athens, right and this is always out by a couple of years. So by Diodorus is reckoning worried about 408-407
Dr Rad 14:57 Well, there you go. Tyrants in Sicily and Livy wasn’t lying.
Dr G 15:01 If Livy is following the same sorts of source material that Diodorus is following, then yes, he’s, he’s on the right track. And the other source that I ended up going to for this, and this is again, testament to the thinness of my source material. Cassiodorus.
Dr Rad 15:22 Wow. Okay. Well, I don’t think we’ve mentioned him at all ever before on this podcast.
Dr G 15:28 Look, I could have gone to him before now. But there was no need in some respects. And yes, things were so desperate for me that I decided that maybe Cassiodorus could help me. Now, who is Cassiodorus? I’m glad you asked. His full name is Flavius Magnus Aurelius Cassiodorus Senator. Now, Senator is not a title. It’s part of his name. He is living in the late fifth century and doing most of his writing in the sixth century CE II.
Dr Rad 16:04 Okay.
Dr G 16:05 So he serves under Theoderic, the king of the Ostrogoths at Ravenna.
Dr Rad 16:13 Wow, so we’re not even really under Roman rule anymore.
Dr G 16:19 I’ve got some bad news, listeners of this podcast, the Romans are gonna take some heavy blows. And they shall be no more. Yeah, by the time we get to Cassiodorus, the Romans it’s a little bit over. We’ve got the Ostrogoths that Ravenna. Ravenna is the new capital in some respects, in the Roman West. It’s it’s pretty over. Anyway, he writes a work that’s known as the Veriae – it’s a collection of letters. And he also does some epitomes of other historians. So he’s got a whole list of magistrates, which is very exciting. And it has been translated very kindly by people who live on the internet.
Dr Rad 17:06 Thank God
Dr G 17:06 I know, aren’t they delightful? Scholars who are like, You know what, this will be a great service to all concerned. Translating is a time consuming task. And so we do have the names for this year of the consuls, also from Cassiodorus. But this is where the Gaius Nautius name comes in.
Dr Rad 17:31 The controversy
Dr G 17:32 So yeah, we think he’s Spurius. But Cassiodorus says you might be Gaius and such being the thinness of our sources, we let Cassiodorus get away with that one. But that is all I’ve got. That is literally it. I’ve got like three sources, maybe with some names.
Dr Rad 17:54 Okay. Well, I’m glad we got to meet Cassiodorus because I’m sure he will come up again.
Dr G 17:58 I hope so. I hope so. I’m not sure that he’s going to have too much more to offer us besides names, but, you know, it’s fun to know he’s out there.
Dr Rad 18:06 Okay, well, let’s move on from this year of trade and corn and potential famine, and talk a little bit about 410 BCE. So who are our magistrates for 410? Dr. G.
Dr G 18:18 All right. I have a few magistrates, so I’ve got consuls, and I’ve got a tribune of the plebs.
Dr Rad 18:23 Mm hmm.
Dr G 18:26 Okay, so our first consul is Manius Aemilius Mamercinus.
Dr Rad 18:34 Know that name.
Dr G 18:37 This guy is gonna go on to have a bit of a career. It’s a it’s a time for people having new careers. This is his first time I think is consul, maybe his first time in any particular high level magistracies that we’ve we know about. So this is an exciting year for him. He is joined in the consulship by Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus. Now this guy we have heard of before.
Dr Rad 19:04 I was going to say I think I remember that name. Volusus.
Dr G 19:07 Yeah, Potitus Volusus. Sounds a bit like a terrible cough actually was a military tribune with consular power in 415. And tribune of the plebs, Marcus Menenius.
Dr Rad 19:25 Ooo interesting name.
Dr G 19:30 Are names all I have? Maybe.
Dr Rad 19:35 All right. Well, let me tell you, let me give you a little bit of narrative to flesh this out. So in 410, we abandon the peacefulness of the previous year because the Aequians are once again getting ready for war, Dr. G.
Dr G 19:48 I hope the plague’s over.
Dr Rad 19:50 Yes, now. Well, I mean, I think the plague was just affecting Rome. They don’t really talk about it being more widespread than that, but we’ll we’ll see. Now the Volscians are going to be teaming up with the Aequians. Once more, however, not in an official capacity, they kind of just want to earn a bit of pocket money. And they’re like
Dr G 20:12 “We’re just going into this as silent partners.”
Dr Rad 20:14 Exactly. Yes, “we will fight as your employees but we’re not going to fight officially.”
Dr G 20:21 Wait a minute, the Volscians are now mercenaries?
Dr Rad 20:24 Yes. Absolutely. So the Romans start to hear of the usual signs that trouble is afoot, which is that the Aequians and the Volscians have teamed up and are attacking Latin and Hernician territory.
Dr G 20:42 Hmm. All right. Now this makes perfect sense because the Aequians are to the slight north east of Rome. And the Volscians are to the south and south east, and Hernician territory lies right in the middle between the Aequians and the Volscians.
Dr Rad 21:02 So they’re like, Let’s get together and make a Hernician sandwich.
Dr G 21:06 Well, with a big huge pincer movement, we can punch that Hernician sausage straight out of the sandwich!
Dr Rad 21:14 Yes. Now the Latin-Hernicians are of course going to call on Rome for aid. Rome is going to obviously make sure that they’re going to fend off these attackers. So one of our consuls, Valerius starts getting the troops ready for battle. Except there’s a little thing called domestic politics that he hadn’t counted on, even though we’ve seen this pattern so many times before, and that is our tribune of the plebs ceases as his golden opportunity to stop the levy and try and push for an agrarian law before anyone goes into battle anywhere.
Dr G 21:52 I kind of love these tactics. I mean, they don’t get old and they just keep happening.
Dr Rad 21:57 Yeah, well, exactly. So we’re getting into sort of the classic conflict of the oldest stuff that we have dealt with before where the pavilions know when they’ve got the patricians over barrel. They know that the patricians need them to go to war deal with these issues, and that therefore, they’re going to actually pay more attention than they might normally do, to their cries for land reform. Fair enough. So the men who don’t particularly want to go to war now have a perfect out, and they can go to Menenius, tribume of the plebs, for protection, okay, and they can refuse to take the oath to serve. However, disturbing reports start flowing into Rome. The citadel of Carventum is captured by Aequians forces. Where is Carventum? Nobody’s really sure.
Dr G 22:51 I do have some details on that.
Dr Rad 22:53 Okay, excellent. Do you want to say them now?
Dr G 22:58 Carventum. This is known as an ancient city of Latin. And listed by Dionysius of Halicarnassus, yonks ago as one of the 30 states, that’s part of the Latin League.
Dr Rad 23:12 Right.
Dr G 23:12 So definitely part of this Latin group, which means that they probably are on the border line on the edge of Hernician territory. The Hernicians aren’t Latin speakers as far as we’re aware?
Dr Rad 23:28 Yeah, that’s right.
Dr G 23:29 They speak at a slightly different language. So for Carventum to be a Latin city, we’d have to assume that it’s slightly, it’s one of these border land type places. So this means that people have speculated for ages about like where this place could be. And one of the big speculations is that it’s somewhere in the Alban Hills.
Dr Rad 23:52 Yes, that is what I found as well,
Dr G 23:54 Specifically a place called Rocca Maxima. Now, there’s an alternative theory, because that’s pretty old theory. And that’s one that’s mostly discredited. Now, more recent scholarship suggest that the town is near Praeneste. Which is also a member of the Latin League. And if you you can still see it on maps today. And it’s basically due east of Rome. And the Alban Hills are kind of in the middle between them. So to get past the Alban Hills, after you still go east, you hit Praeneste, and they think that this town of Carventum might be there, and the Citadel was obviously inside it somewhere. We haven’t found any trace to prove any of that. But that’s kind of the gist.
Dr Rad 24:45 We;;, there you go. It all makes sense to me that regardless of where this place is the fact that it has been captured by the Aequians. Whilst the Romans are bickering amongst themselves is highly embarrassing. The patricians are not happy. Yeah. The patricians are really not happy and they decide, “You know what, we’re going to use this to our advantage. We are going to use this military setback to shame Menenius, we will manage to turn him around, he will allow the levy because we can’t allow this to stand.” Allegedly, the rest of the tribune of the plebs that are serving this year, who are nameless, of course, have already been won over to the patricians side in this argument, in fact,
Dr G 25:34 But how? But why?
Dr Rad 25:36 I know, I know, there’s so many details I’d like to know, I kind of think this relates back to something we spoke about a few episodes ago, where they had this idea of like dividing and conquering, you know, using like a classic method from way back in the beginning of the conflict of the orders, where, I guess they promised the tribunes, you know, favors, or, I don’t know, some sort of unofficial alliance or something like that. And therefore, the tribune is like, well, you know what, this is a pretty crappy gig that I’ve got here. I may as well make friends with the powerful people in this place. I may as well betray my kind, yeah, I’ll betray my kind and everything that we stand for, so that I can get ahead in this work.
Dr G 26:17 I feel like the only thing that would lure plebeains over at this point would be the promise of becoming a patrician. But I feel like that’s normal on offer that is not on.
Dr Rad 26:28 Yet, we don’t really know the hows and the whys and wherefores, but we know that a few years ago, one of the younger Appius Claudius as of the world has suggested that they bring this tactic back. And I feel like it’s actually never really gone away. Even when they’re not talking about it. I feel like they’re patricians, are continuing to keep the tribune of the plebs divided and winning over some of the ones who may be a little less scrupulous to their side, because apparently, they’ve already been turned against the idea of an agrarian law and land reform or that kind of stuff. And now they’re just using this military defeat to publicly sided against Menenius. And it gives them like sort of the perfect excuse, like they don’t have to try and cover up the fact that they’re doing something a bit weird by siding with the patricians on this issue.
Dr G 27:16 I wonder if this might also be related to the changing dynamic over time of that, what does the tribune of the plebs represented? I feel like potentially Livy’s doing a bit of a retrorejection here, where one explanation you could posit for why tribunes would behave this way is that they actually come from very rich plebeian families.
Dr Rad 27:41 And so as we’ve spoken about before, this is not a class struggle between the rich and the poor. It’s a struggle between the people that hold a lot of power in an official capacity and people that are barred from that.
Dr G 27:55 Yeah. So it might be the case that some of these people who get into the role of tribune of the plebs see this as the top job for people with their kind of background. Yeah. And they’re willing to use that wealth in whatever way sort of furthers their own ambitions rather than looking after as much as we might like them to the little guy who could use some representation.
Dr Rad 28:18 Yeah, exactly. And this is what we’ve talked about before that probably a lot of the people that we hear about from the tribune of the plebs position, or even some of the named plebeains that we get in our sources, they probably have more in common with the patricians that are named in our accounts than they do with the average person in Rome at this point in time. Because if they’re this involved in politics, then you kind of have to imagine they’ve got a fair amount of free time on their hands.
Dr G 28:46 Oh, boy.
Dr Rad 28:47 Yeah. Now, so you think that this would obviously be really bad for Menenius? You know, Hey, there he is the sole tribune standing out against the levee. Militarily, things are not looking great for Rome’s allies, the Aequians are making incursions into their territory. Is this the moment that he caves? Oh contraire, Dr. G. It only makes him stick to his guns all the more. And so we have a really long drawn out argument apparently ensuing. Between the patricians who were like,” please, for the love of God, just let us hold the levy. We got to go and deal with this,” and Menenius being like, “Not on your life, not until I get some land reform. God dammit!”
Dr G 29:35 It’s like as soon as you do land reform, you can have a levee.
Dr Rad 29:39 Yeah. Now the consuls obviously at their wit’s end, they do not know what to say to this guy to convince him. So the consuls call on the gods and all of Rome to witness that Menenius personally, is to blame for anything bad that is happening or would happen in the future. Whether it’s defeat, whether it’s the ultimate disgrace, whatever it is, it’s all going to be Menenius’ fault because he has held up the levy.
Dr G 30:08 This does sound pretty disturbing. So they brought the gods into this.
Dr Rad 30:14 They have.
Dr G 30:15 This is a bad sign for the patricians.
Dr Rad 30:19 Now Menenius comes back to this, you know, big threat. I said, well, not threat. But you know what I mean? Like Menenius comes back to this big call, I suppose, and says, “Look, it’s quite simple. Just give up the land that the patricians are illegally occupying. And I will allow the levy to go ahead. That’s all I’m asking.”
Dr G 30:39 Yeah, that’s very simple.
Dr Rad 30:41 Yeah. And again, we return to this idea which you highlighted again, and again, seems so weird that the land is being occupied illegally, which, as we’ve said, just doesn’t really seem to make sense for Rome in this period. But this is the narrative that they’re sticking with.
Dr G 30:58 Ah look, Livy’s not going to give that up. And I would assume that if Dionysius of Halicarnassus were here with us, he would not give it up either.
Dr Rad 31:05 Yeah, exactly. So we’ve got this very late Republican idea of land and land reform and what that should look like, in the early republic, nonetheless, let’s power on. This is where something incredibly weird happens. And I honestly don’t think there is a good explanation for what I’m about to say,
Dr G 31:05 Oh, this sounds exciting.
Dr Rad 31:06 Yeah. So there are nine other tribunes of the plebs. These are the guys that have already turned on Menenius and now publicly have a reason to be calling him out and saying that he shouldn’t be holding up the levy. Okay. So all of these other tribunes agree to back Valerius if he starts using harsh measures to get people to enlist in the army.
Dr G 31:56 Oh, they’re going to use violence to enact the levy?
Dr Rad 31:59 Not just violence. Money too. Valerius is allowed by these tribunes to start using fines and other forms of coercion, which I presume does mean physical force to get people to enlist, even though Menenius is using his veto power to hold up the levy. Now, this is apparently passed as like some sort of actual decree. It’s not just like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge will back you up, buddy. It seems like there is something made very official about this so that Valerius can go about his business.
Dr G 32:40 That is very interesting, because and it doesn’t make sense. I agree with you.
Dr Rad 32:44 It does not.
Dr G 32:44 Because: one, it calls the whole concept of the veto into question. And the veto power of the tribune of the plebs is something that we haven’t really strongly historically established yet anyway. And so for it to be sort of dismantled so robustly in this moment, is a bad sign. And I would question whether that would be the case. But also, what the hell is going on?
Dr Rad 33:16 I know, I know, I think this highlights as you say, it definitely highlights I think the fact that supposedly, we have this position of the tribune of the plebs that has come out of the conflict of the orders, you know, it’s been one of the only big wins that really had, I mean, I’ve had a few, but that’s probably the biggest one. However, you and I have also talked about the fact that we’re not really sure if any of the magistracies actually exists, all their consuls are there, I don’t know! And so it’s very possible-
We definitely have lists of names.
Yes, we have lists of name. Exactly, we have lists of names. But as we’ve talked about before, you and I very much run with this theory that actually it’s probably a lot more ad hoc, and you know, clan based power, you know, at this point in time, rather than having these very structured systems in place.
Dr G 34:11 It’s pretty clear that Rome is working out its systems of governance. And we were just on the cusp of hitting one century of the Republic, if those sorts of timelines are ones that we sort of notionally want to agree to. So we’re in a working out kind of phase. And arguably, and I think this is true for Rome throughout all of its history, there is never a moment of clear political static stability. The whole thing is always, always dynamic. So, what is happening here, this clash between what seems to be various magistrates, that might be clashes between families, as you say This could be gens versus gens, some with more prestige, some with more wealth. Some who maybe want to see Rome go in a different direction, but that doesn’t get articulated or recorded, and it doesn’t make it into our annalistic histories that are written like centuries later.
Dr Rad 35:18 Yeah, exactly. And as we’ve talked about last episode, this is a period where Rome does seem to be militarily getting back into its game, you know, we do have some expansion happening, like nothing too crazy. It’s not like they like capturing Greece. But we are definitely seeing a slightly different direction for rowing than we have seen for some time. And it seems like the dark cloud that it kind of settled over the latter half of this century is starting to lift and allow for more of these kinds of moves on Rome’s behalf. But certainly, I think it does. It definitely highlights once again, this idea that the tribune of the plebs has like fully is fully formed. And we know exactly what the tribune of the plebs can and cannot do. I think that this highlights that that’s not the case. But it, it’s possible, like if we say for a second that okay, maybe there are people that hold some titles, at this point in time. Maybe one of those titles is tribune of the plebs. Let’s run with that for a moment. If we go along with this idea that they maybe have some sort of veto power, that they’re invested in some sort of sacrosanctity. What this incident might be highlighting is that that isn’t really worth a lot if your colleagues aren’t willing to back you up.
Dr G 35:18 Yeah.
Dr Rad 35:18 Because we’re talking about at this point in time, and we talked about this when I think the tribune is very first came about, literally, the idea is that that the tribune would physically be there to offer protection if someone was in need. Usually, when we were talking about it originally, in this sense, I think we were talking about, you know, being dragged off into debt bondage or something like that. But the idea was, the tribune would be there to physically offer you his protection. And if he wasn’t physically there, you may not get that protection. And I think you can kind of see that potentially, in this instance, as well, in that it’s all very well and good for Menenius to say, “You shall not pass.” But it doesn’t really mean a lot if people aren’t willing to, you know, go along with and back him up and that sort of thing. And he can’t be everywhere at once.
Dr G 37:37 Yeah, that’s that is part of the problem that if he is going to, if he does, indeed have a body, which is considered sacrosanct while he is in this role, to allow him to do that physical kind of protection, he does have to be somewhere really obvious and have everybody who needs his help run to him. So he can then attempt to run a circle around them of protection. You know, this is the only way that it would work. You might have people coming into his house, he might be able to save one or two, maybe 10 people. But if the consuls are getting their military officers to enact a violent levy to enforce enlistment, it’s going to be very hard for Menenius to be everywhere to see that off, particularly if he doesn’t have the support of his other nine tribunes.
Dr Rad 38:30 Absolutely he is absolutely an island right now. He’s the walrus. Now the consul Valerius, of course, now that he is backed by this power that’s been given to him by the other tribunes, it seems he starts dragging people who are refusing to enlist in front of him and making such a spectacle of their set. Everyone else gets really intimidated and is too scared not to enlist so that the tactic works perfectly.
Dr G 38:58 Sounds about right, sounds very patrician, I have to say.
Dr Rad 39:01 It does. So as a result, the Romans are finally able to send an army marching off to this citadel that has been captured – Carventum – wherever that is.
Dr G 39:11 East! Let’s say east.
Dr Rad 39:13 Yeah, to the east. Okay. Now, with everything that’s happened. There isn’t a lot of love happening in this military buddy, Dr. G.
Dr G 39:23 Are you telling me morale is low?
Dr Rad 39:26 It is a little bit the troops hate Valerius and Valerius hates them right back.
Dr G 39:32 Ah, you know, one could have guessed if you violently beat people up to force them to be in your army that maybe they wouldn’t care for it very much.
Dr Rad 39:41 I know. Yeah. I thought when I read this, okay, so we’re headed for one of these classic Roman military defeats or something like that. And this guy is going to end up getting into so much trouble for being a terrible commander. But that’s not actually what happens in spite of the fact that there’s this tension between them. They all do their duty. They serve well and they manage to drive off the joint Aequian- Volscian force, the Aequians having kind of made it easy for them by not putting up a particularly strong defense.
Dr G 40:09 They sent the mercenaries that they’d hired from the Volsci home?
Dr Rad 40:13 Well, I think that rather than maybe having everybody you know, in the Citadel holding on to it, they’d said to people, yeah, you know, if you want to take five, go for a wander, Look for some stuff, do some pillaging, do some rapping, that kind of stuff, you go right ahead, just be backed by six.
Dr G 40:30 Hmmm, discipline was lax.
Dr Rad 40:33 Exactly discipline was lax. And so it was quite easy for the Romans to sort of breeze in and take over. And it’s becoming a bit of a sad and typical story, they did not find a lot of plunder, because of course, the Aequians and the Volscians know that there’s a war going on, and therefore they’d stash anything that was really valuable for safekeeping.
Dr G 40:52 I kind of love that it’s taken like a good century for everybody in the area to figure out that it’s like, “Let’s hide the spoils somewhere else.” You know, first steps first.
Dr Rad 41:04 Let’s not just keep it in the living room.
Dr G 41:07 Let’s hide it somewhere. That could be good. This has taken a while, but we got there.
Dr Rad 41:12 Yeah, so they obviously captured some stuff, because what happens next is that Valerius allows the quaestors to auction off any booty that they have captured. And whatever money is raised is going straight into public territory. Is this a strange thing for the questions to be doing? You betcha.
Dr G 41:31 Very odd. Public territory. Does this mean? Is this a tacit sort of suggestion that there’s ager publicus involved here?
Dr Rad 41:42 Look, I think it’s more the fact that that kind of a job would usually fall to an urban praetor. So someone who’s located in the city of Rome, they might potentially be involved in something like that. But if we’re talking about military quaestors here, which I think is what is meant to be happening, that is not usually part of their role. It just again, it just doesn’t seem right. It seems anachronistic.
Dr G 42:11 It does. I would say that that may be what’s happening here is that the writers – potentially Livy’s thinking about the quaestorship in it’s much later form exit where it does become this kind of the financial attache of the military commander. That’s not really quite where the quaestors are at far as we can tell.
Dr Rad 42:34 Yeah. Yeah, at this point in time, it doesn’t really make sense if we are reading this the way it’s being presented. And so this is obviously meant to be a big public statement. To the army. “You’re not going to get a cut of anything that we capture until you are obedient. So stop your whinging. Stop your whining or no more spoils for you!”
Dr G 42:58 Aw man.
Dr Rad 43:01 Now, this of course, does not endear Valerius to his man.
Dr G 43:06 Well, there’s a surprise.
Dr Rad 43:08 Yeah. And because most of the people who are serving as your regular rank-and-file soldiers are plebeians. They, of course, let other plebeians know that they are unhappy and the mood spreads. Now Valerius is granted an ovation.
Dr G 43:23 Oh
Dr Rad 43:24 Yeah. Yeah, fancy. And it doesn’t seem like that big a deal. To be honest. It seems kind of like he just waltz into this.
Dr G 43:33 Seems like it wasn’t hard to take back this citadel. So is it really deserving of an of an ovatio? But I guess it’s desperate times. And Rome hasn’t had heaps of military success for a few years until the last couple. So maybe they’re excited and their standards are low.
Dr Rad 43:50 Well, yeah. And also, I mean, you know, he’s also from, I guess, one of those families like the Valerii. Like, we’ve talked about them a lot. They’re pretty prestigious.
Dr G 43:56 Yeah, they are very prestigious.
Dr Rad 43:58 They’re really powerful. I’m sure they know who’s back to scratch, if you know what I mean, then anyway, so Valerius rocks up for this ovatio – not quite a triumph – but still, you know, Rome going, “Well done.” And finds that Rome is not actually saying well done. Instead, he’s being pelted with abuse.
Dr G 44:16 Oh, okay. So he’s so he’s been awarded the ovation by the Senate, presumably,
Dr Rad 44:23 it looks it doesn’t actually say but I mean, you would presume so
Dr G 44:27 I would presume so. I think it’s kind of that sort of suggestion would come through like, you don’t get to just have an ovatio, it gets granted in some way. But yeah, if the general urban population is not into that, I can see how a walking procession through the city in a very slow and deliberate – supposedly celebratory way – could be great fodder for your rotten vegetables.
Dr Rad 44:55 Exactly. So he starts getting abused and that’s not really what you’re here with me. tend to be about to be a special moment. And everyone’s kept calling him. And then interestingly, praise starts to be showered on Menenius. So Menenius starts to become, you know, a figure of appeal again, I mean, not that I think everybody like turned on him, for example, but I would imagine that he obviously lost a bit of credibility after everything that had happened. But when everybody starts shouting at the name Menenius, it kind of spreads through the crowd, the enthusiasm just builds. Menenius is now the man of the moment. And he’s the one who’s getting cheered, and everyone’s really crazy for Menenius. And that’s not really how ovatios work.
Dr G 45:46 I love this redemption arc, though, where it’s like, the people have realized that Menenius was the guy that was on their side, and they’re like, “You know what, this has gone badly. And the only guy who stood it our corner? Menenius.”
Dr Rad 46:00 Yeah, and this is the thing, I don’t think that people ever doubted that he was their guy. I think they were just intimidated into obviously behaving a certain way. But now that they’ve seen the way that Valerius has acted after this victory, I kind of think they’ve got nothing left to lose at this point in time, and they’re just being they’re just being vocal. They’re just expressing their feelings, Dr G.
Dr G 46:22 Nobody can get into trouble for that, can they?
Dr Rad 46:25 Exactly. Now, the patricians are extremely nervous by this public display. They’re like, okay, it’s not out of the ordinary for there to be some tension between the regular soldiers and their commanders, who are at this point in time, usually consuls or military tribunes with consular power. They’re like, that’s fine. We can deal with that. That’s apparently how things normally are. We can also accept that there’s usually a lot of tension between patricians and plebeians. Apparently, that’s what our society is all about this century. It’s hashtag trending. But this demonstration kind of puts them on high alert. So once again, we see the paranoia coming out. They feel incredibly certain after everything that’s gone down recently, that if they allow military tribunes with consular power the next year, rather than consuls, Menenius will be the first plebeian to be elected into that position.
Dr G 47:31 Oh, they’ve been paranoid about this for a couple of years. Now. That’s why we keep getting consuls, isn’t it? Well, at least that’s the rationale we’ve been given.
Dr Rad 47:37 They have been paranoid about the plebeians. Finally, getting to that point, however, in this particular instance, is because they’ve actually got a guy like they’re like, “this is the one, this is the one that’s going to cause all these problems.” Okay. Now, this is interesting, because this is where I’m going to highlight this Menenius is not a name, I think we come across much again, there was if we go back to 483 BCE, there was mention of a tense relationship between a Valerius and a Maelius. But that’s not the same name.
Dr G 48:21 No.
Dr Rad 48:21 Okay. So that’s a bit of a – hmmm, not sure about that.
Dr G 48:26 That’s questionable.
Dr Rad 48:27 Mm hmm. Yeah. Literally, the Menenius family certainly is a well known plebeian family, but it’s just this particular guy, we don’t really hear about him again. So it’s interesting that they’re like, this is the one. This is the one we’ve been afraid of. But yeah, if we, if we go all the way back again, you know, as you highlighted before, we were talking about the Icilius of the previous episode that we were talking about. He’s obviously from a very well known plebeian family with a long history of you know, these important moments of resistance against patrician rule. Menenius, we actually do have a Menenius mentioned back in the First Succession as well. But that’s a Menenius from a patrician family,
Dr G 49:11 I was gonna say this name is unknown to us. We’ve got this patrician side of the gens, and we’ve got a plebeian side of the gens. So…
Dr Rad 49:21 We do. Yeah, yeah. And the plebeian side is well known. And they will be associated with this position again, but yeah, this particular guy, he’s going to be disappearing into the mists of time.
Dr G 49:33 Look, I think this might end up being like a number of things that we see in this time period with our annalist historians, which is that they’re inserting potentially names that are quite familiar from later generation-
Dr Rad 49:47 Exactly, yes
Dr G 49:48 -into this narrative, one to sort of maybe flesh out the details a little bit. And to maybe there’s some legacy of those family oral histories where people tell of the great people They’re great ancestors, and the stories are coming through in those sort of family traditions. So, without sort of having more independent evidence to think about, it does get quite messy to figure out whether this is like, is this guy real? Is he more of a symbol for something in this narrative, and he needed a name. So we’ll associate him with the kinds of qualities that we associate with the Menenius family from a later period. All that kind of stuff might be going on here.
Dr Rad 50:30 Yeah, absolutely. But anyway, they are so paranoid, they’re like, “not in our treehouse, pal! You’re not coming in, none of you plebeians are coming in! We’re locking the doors!” And so they make sure that there are going to be consular elections, because as you said, not only have they been paranoid about plebeians, you know, crossing that threshold, but now they see this guy, and they’re like, they’re like, “he’s got the fire, you know, he’s got, he’s got the gifts. He’s got the charisma. He’s got the uniqueness. He’s got the nerve, he’s got the talent, he’s going to make it!”
Dr G 50:57 The name on everybody’s lips is gonna be, Menenius.
Dr Rad 51:06 I’m amazed that you managed to make all those syllables fit.
Dr G 51:10 I was really proud of myself that.
Dr Rad 51:14 Anyway, so that is where 410 ends for me. And I can tell you now we are in for more fascinating, bizarre, probably anachronistic, maybe fictional moments in the conflict of the orders in the years ahead.
Dr G 51:30 Stay tuned.
Dr Rad 51:32 That means, Dr G., that it is once more time for The Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, tell us what The Partial Pick is all about
Dr G 51:42 The Partial Pick, there are 50 golden eagles on offer for Rome, Judge across five categories. So for each category, they could get a score of 10 Golden Eagles if they perform exceptionally well. And we’re just going to judge them by their own standards, really. So we’ll see.
Dr Rad 52:01 How will Rome perform for me today. All right, what’s our first category, Dr. G?
Dr G 52:08 Our first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 52:11 Well, I do think they deserve some points, because obviously, we have got the recapture of the citadel of the mysterious place that nobody knows where it is, except that it’s east.
Dr G 52:22 Is this the place that they also lost? Or do the Hernicians technically lose it?
Dr Rad 52:28 No, that they didn’t, I mean, they didn’y. They didn’t lose it. It was just taken by the Aequians. And then they took it back.
Dr G 52:34 Hmm.
Dr Rad 52:35 Yeah. And this is why this is why Valerius got the ovatio.
Dr G 52:38 Well, yes. I mean, I understand that concept, but who owned it in the first place?
Dr Rad 52:43 Well, I guess we don’t really know where it is. But given given the narrative that I have, to me, it seems like it must be in either Latin or Hernician territory, because that’s, that’s what the Aequians and the Volscians are doing. They’re attacking, Rome’s allies. Yeah, I’m
Dr G 53:00 Yeah, I’m just wondering, like, you know, does it count as a, as a substantial victory worthy of high praise? And thus, a lot of Roman golden eagles? If they’re just sort of taking back something that maybe wasn’t really part of their stuff anyway, like,
Dr Rad 53:19 this is true. I mean, we don’t it’s not really clear if it’s even maybe it’s this maybe
Dr G 53:25 these are the questions I’m asking.
Dr Rad 53:26 I mean, the consul certainly are very worked up about it. It’s definitely seen as like a really big deal that they’ve allowed this to happen.
Dr G 53:36 It strikes me that Carventum and its citadel may stand at this point in time as kind of like a buffer for Rome on the edge of it’s on the edge of Latin territory, this is just a guess. And so it’s maybe strategically important, and that’s potentially why they’re so invested in making sure that they retake it.
Dr Rad 53:58 Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s obviously a huge deal. It’s not like they’re like, “Eh what’s one citadel?”
Dr G 54:03 A citadel here, a citadel there. Whatever.
Dr Rad 54:07 Yeah, they definitely kind of allow it to happen. So I think it’s, I mean, I don’t know, I guess I see it as, if Valerius is getting an ovatio. That’s what I’m using as my barometer here. I feel like it must be significant enough to matter. And therefore I feel they deserve like maybe like a two or three.
Dr G 54:27 Oh, all right. I was gonna give them like a four or five. And I was like, Look ovatios are hard work. But I you know.
Dr Rad 54:34 Let’s saym three. I think it’s three because as you say, I don’t think it’s that big a deal because it was taken by the Aequians of the Romans just got it back again. It’s not like it’s new territory. Yeah,
Dr G 54:44 All right.
Dr Rad 54:46 Although, I mean, again, we don’t really know if it’s theirs or someone else’s, but…
Dr G 54:52 The vagaries of history.
Dr Rad 54:56 Alright, so we got three. Alright, what’s our next category?
Dr G 54:58 Our second category is diplomacy.
Dr Rad 55:02 Okay. I don’t think although I suppose if we go back to 411, sorry, they’re getting 411 because it was a bit of a blah year. There is obviously the whole issue with, you know, securing grain which they do very nicely. They don’t steal it, they buy it.
Dr G 55:17 That’s true. They make friends with the Sicilians. They do the tyrants. Wow. And they also seem to buy some from the Etruscans. So things seem to be going well with that relationship, kind of.
Dr Rad 55:31 Definitely. Yeah. Okay, so what, like a two?
Dr G 55:37 Yeah, I think this has to be held in balance with the fact that diplomacy within Rome doesn’t seem to be going great.
Dr Rad 55:45 I’m still so not sure that we should even be talking about diplomacy if it’s within Rome. I don’t think that makes any sense.
Dr G 55:52 Well, you know, negotiating is negotiating.
Dr Rad 55:56 Yeah, that’s certainly war with the Aequians. It’s not diplomatic now that they started it, but that’s true. They finished it. So we’re gonna give them two points for the grain. Okay. All right. Next category?
Dr G 56:09 Expansion.
Dr Rad 56:11 Hmm. This comes back to the question. Again, I’m really not sure.
Dr G 56:16 I feel like it has been mentioned little enough. That it’s not Roman. It’s yeah. And Look, the Latin place and it’s run by some Latin people.
Dr Rad 56:26 Look, the places that I’ve seen mentioned in connection with this spot, none of which were the ones that you mentioned. So clearly we’re reading different sources. It doesn’t seem like this site is actually that far away from Rome. But it’s certainly not within Rome right now.
Dr G 56:43 Yeah.
Dr Rad 56:44 Yeah. So it’s close. I mean, maybe like Tusculum distance.
Dr G 56:50 But Tusculum isn’t Rome, either. So you know,
Dr Rad 56:53 That’s what I mean. Yeah. It’s not far from Rome.
Dr G 56:56 Yeah, but all of these places are kind of running themselves. So I think this is not so much expansion. Or maybe, if they hold on to it?
Dr Rad 57:09 Well, they do. I mean, at this point in time, they’re holding it and we have to judge them on what we’ve got for this year at this point in time. They’ve held it. Alright, let’s give them to. Okay. I feel guilty because I know something about what happens in the future, which might affect this, but I have to judge them on what we’ve just said.
Dr G 57:26 We can’t talk about the future now. You made it explicitly clear that we could only talk about this year.
Dr Rad 57:32 That’s, I mean, like I feel guilty, because I know what’s coming, but anyway, judging them based on this year, in this year, they hold it. Yes, exactly. All right. Next category?
Dr G 57:47 Virtus.
Dr Rad 57:51 I mean, Menenius is a bit of a stand up guy, but I don’t think that you could call it he does virtus.
Dr G 57:59 Yeah. I’m not sure that we have enough detail to be able to claim virtus for him.
Dr Rad 58:04 No, no, he’s a good tribune of the plebs. Huh? Yeah. And Valerius. He’s just a douchebag. And so
Dr G 58:12 Sometimes that is virtus, though.
Dr Rad 58:15 I know, I know not in the Roman, not in the Roman sense. And like, he’s, he’s a douchebag by like, a lot of people’s standards. Alright, so I think that’s a zero.
Dr G 58:25 Yeah. All right. The final category is the citizen score.
Dr Rad 58:30 Well, I mean, I feel like it’s positive that they don’t starve to death. And I think that it’s positive that they have a pretty good tribune of the plebs on their side, but on the other hand, they have nine who are terrible.
Dr G 58:44 Yeah, the counterbalance isn’t great there.
Dr Rad 58:46 Yeah. But on the other hand, it seems like the wars not too long, doesn’t seem like many people die. And then they have the guts to stand up to the patrician legal areas, when they get there.
Dr G 58:59 They do get to throw some rotten fruit. So that’s fun. That’s good. I feel like that’s gonna count for something. I don’t think that makes up for the trauma of being beaten up to be in the army in the first place, but it certainly helps.
Dr Rad 59:10 Look, I don’t know that many people were actually beaten up. I think that a few people were and everyone else was like, “Okay, I don’t want that to happen to me.”
Dr G 59:20 Like, ew, yeah. All right. But I’d say on average, then we’re probably looking at maybe a three.
Dr Rad 59:26 Okay, all right. Well, that’s good Dr. G, because that means that all my fingers are accounted for. We’ve got 10 Golden Eagles for room for the joint years, 4 11 and 410 BCE.
Dr G 59:43 Now look, that is a whole Golden Eagle up on the previous two years.
Dr Rad 59:48 So it is an improvement
Dr G 59:50 They’re definitely making ground.
Dr Rad 59:52 And I’m really looking I’m looking forward very much to talking about the next couple of years because there’s definitely some prime patrician for the in drama that is going to be happening. If and you know I love exploring the conflict with you, because it’s so crazy.
Dr G 1:00:05 Well, I Look forward to seeing what turns up in my research. Maybe I have some sources and discussing more about the struggle of the orders with you soon,
Dr Rad 1:00:15 indeed.
Dr G 1:00:24 Thank you for listening to this episode of The Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcasts. Researching and producing a podcast takes time if you’re keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book, “Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome” at partial historians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode – A History of the Roman Empire in 21 Women with Dr Emma Southon
Nov 02, 2023
In this special episode we sit down with Dr Emma Southon to discuss her brand new book A History of the Roman Empire in 21 Women.
This is the Roman antidote to all those fabulous reimagining of Greek myth by delving into the very real and very fascinating lives of some of the women who lived under the Romans.
Special Episode – A History of the Roman Empire in 21 Women with Dr Emma Southon
We discuss the choices Emma made about who to include and who to leave out as well as consider some of the women who stood out for us when reading the book.
If you have a history-minded people to consider at certain upcoming celebrations that may or may not resemble the Saturnalia, this book is worthy of your consideration. Not only is Emma erudite, but she has a great understanding of just how quirky the Romans were.
Things to tune in for
The challenges of ancient evidence (a perennial topic on our podcast!)
The amazing life of Turia
‘Manus’ marriage – an ancient form of Roman marriage which saw a wife come under the direct power of her husband (or his paterfamilias)
The enterprises of Julia Felix
*The conquests and political power plays of Zenobia
The very particular approach to Christianity of Melania the Elder
We firmly recommend checking out Dr Southon’s work, which can be found on her website: https://www.emmasouthon.com/
If you’re interested in her latest book, here are links to where to buy online:
Just look at those glorious book covers! Despite the title difference, these are the SAME book. The US release is known as A Rome of One’s Own while the UK version is entitled A History of the Roman Empire in 21 Women.
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to The Partial Historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Read.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a special episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:08 And I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:10 And this is a special episode because we are talking to someone extremely exciting. Dr. G. Dare I say? scintillating?
Dr G 1:19 I think you should say scintillating. Yeah, we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Emma Southon back to the show. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dr Emma Southon 1:28 Thank you so much for having me back. I just feel extra special when I get invited back like I didn’t do something monstrous last time.
Dr Rad 1:35 Exactly, exactly. So, Dr Emma Southon, for those of you who haven’t caused our previous episodes is one of our favorite guests for three reasons. Number one, she likes RuPaul’s Drag Race and therefore will understand my random references to it unlike Dr. G. Number two, she likes women in history. And number three, she shares our outlook on the ancient Romans, which is that they are unintentionally hilarious and weird. Now to be a bit more specific, Dr. Southon is renowned a smarty pants and here’s why. Aside from the obvious title before her name, she is the co host of the history comedy podcast ‘History is Sexy’, along with our Kiwi cousin, Janina Mathewson. She’s also the author of some of our favorite history books, including ‘Agrippina, Empress, Exile, Hustler Whore’, autobuy autobiography, a biography of the most extraordinary woman in the Roman world, and ‘A Fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum’. However, we have already had the pleasure of talking to her about these books. And today, we get to talk to her about another exciting volume that has just been released ‘A History of the Roman Empire in 21 Women: How Women Transformed the Empire’.
Dr G 2:53 Yay!
Dr Emma Southon 2:56 Impressive.
Dr Rad 2:58 Well, I will say this, you don’t like a short title. I don’t like a short title.
Dr Emma Southon 3:03 And you think I’d learn but that people struggle to remember short titles, but But yeah, I don’t know. They end up being really long. In America, this book is called ‘A Rome of One’s Own’, which is snappier.
Dr Rad 3:18 Ahhh, nice.
Dr G 3:18 I do like that. I saw that on Amazon. And I was like, Oh, that is sweet. I enjoyed the pun.
Dr Emma Southon 3:25 It’s yeah, I have friends who have much better puns than I am. And they come up with these great puns. And I’m like, right, well, that’s my title. Thank you.
Dr Rad 3:34 Now you cover a staggering array of women in this book. And I have to say up front, we’re not going to talk about the Regal period at all, because quite frankly, we can’t talk about it any more. We’ve talked about it so much. The only thing I will say is, I think in a second edition, you’re going to have to amend your chapter on Tanaquil, where you say that there are no popular histories that mentioned Tanaquil.
Dr Emma Southon 4:03 Yes, that’s true, because you have now finally written one.
Dr Rad 4:07 Yeah, we both have we both had.
Dr Emma Southon 4:09 Yeah. But it is. I don’t know. It was just so like, I went through as many as I could find, like all of them for like books of like a history of the Roman Empire. And like that I have kind of lying around in my house and reflect through the ones I could see. And they just skip right over her. They skip over the regnal period, like a lot like the whole, the kings are just kind of coughed over fairly often. But still, I was like, this is such a good story.
I know. I know.
Why would you not want to like go out of your way to include this. So yeah, so second edition paperback edition will have a specific reference to The Partial Historians.
Dr Rad 4:48 Yeah, thank you very much. So we feel okay now, we can calm down and talk about your book.
Dr G 4:53 Okay, the interview can happen now.
Dr Emma Southon 4:55 When I finally – because your book came out just before my end like a couple of months ago, where mine had already gone off like, and I wasn’t allowed to change it anymore. And I was like, no, I could I could have done this with this so much. And I have thoroughly enjoyed it. So everybody should buy it.
Dr G 5:13 Oh, thank you
Dr Rad 5:13 Ahh thank you. Well, we definitely felt that way about your book. And so we’d love to ask you some general questions to start off with about the style of your book. So your last book was about murder in ancient Rome. Why did you decide to, you know, change tack and go for a history of Rome, using the lives of women as your next project?
Dr Emma Southon 5:35 It’s partly spite. So my other thing that I do during my days is I work in a book shop, and you will have noticed, it’s impossible not to have noticed and moment that there is a been in the past two years ish, like a really big spike in interest in Greek goddesses, like retelling Greek myth, specifically, like retellings of female stories and Greek myth, which is great for, you know, ancient history in general, kind of, but also, you, as you will know, when you’re a Roman historian, you think that Romans are the best. Yeah. And it’s constant, like, oh, yeah, I mean, I guess the Greeks are fine. But Romans are better because they’re funnier. It’s so I kind of out of spite, when it’d be like, Yeah, but Roman women exist, too, and that they’re better because they’re real. And they don’t like turn into spiders, or like, they’re not goddesses, they’re bad. So that makes them better. And so, a 50%, out of spite that I wanted people to also be reading about Romans. And to know that Romans are better than Greeks, and 50%, because I just feel like so much of like, popular Roman history is talking about men and like the, the standard narrative of Roman history of the store of the story of Roman history is so much just war and politics, basically, which is the sphere of men, which women are explicitly excluded from, and I thought it would be fun to kind of disrupt that a little bit and be like, one, there is a history of the Roman Empire that doesn’t have any politics in it really, or has a limited amount of politics. And there is a, there is a history, which is more than just politics, it can also be what it is like to live in the Roman Empire at various times as various people. And it’s more interesting to tell that story through women than it is through men and to show that women are always kind of around about and I realized quite early on into writing it that as kind of a historian of my age, I am really only the second generation of historians writing about women in the ancient world, like my supervisor, for my PhD, who is still working was like one of the first generation of people to do her PhD on women. And like, people like Amy Richlin and Suzanne Dixon, who are still around and wrote those first books about women in the Roman Empire are like, they’re still teaching. They’re still they’re still at conferences like this. They’re you know, they’re older. But as we all know, historians never retire. So they’re still around, they’re still alive. Like they. This isn’t like an old discipline women in Rome, or women in the ancient world at all. It’s very, very new. And so, yeah, so it’s time to bring it to their, the popular imagination out of the academy and start talking about it.
Dr G 8:45 I think you’re doing a great service, particularly to readers who have become hooked on ancient Greek myths, because there is so much more to the ancient world than just, you know, having your tongue taken out or turning into a monster or
Dr Emma Southon 9:02 And like it not to be like everybody loves the Greek myths, and they love them for a reason. But a lot of them are victimized women, and there are but there are stories which from a kind of feminist perspective, I have minor issues with like stories of perpetually victimized women and womanhood as being perpetually victimized. So it’s nice to tell stories about ancient women that were not like being turned into spiders or having their tongue taken out or being held into the sea or like or have to be literal goddesses in order to be able to do anything.
Dr Rad 9:36 Yeah, and as as we can definitely testify, we realized once we started focusing on the early republic, that he’d have literally been years of episodes sometimes before we mentioned a woman, we suddenly realized when a woman would come up as you say in your book, like a Vestal Virgin or were like God, it’s been like five years since about women at all.
Dr Emma Southon 9:58 Yeah, yeah. And it’s so easy to fall into that and to be like, oh, all of the important stories are the ones that the Romans thought were important. But the Romans can’t be trusted, because they have bad opinions about a lot of stuff.
Dr G 10:12 So true. So true. And I think this leads nicely into thinking about like, how did you come to the decision about which women to focus on because it seems like you’ve hinted already, in some sense, it’s about availability of evidence. But there must be other criteria as well.
Dr Emma Southon 10:28 So in that early period, a lot of it is availability of evidence up until the later of because the archaeology is so limited, and you are kind of trapped with texts, particularly for like the Regal period, and then the early and middle Republic before their epigraphic habit kicked in. It was about who can I find, basically, and finding stuff for the very earliest period when they basically mythical was easier than I thought it would be like those early bits of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. So so you’ve got Hersilia and you’ve got Tullia, like, there were more women than I thought. And so I just included all of them, because why not?
Dr Rad 11:15 Yeah, that’s what we were surprised by as well. We started writing about the kings were like, actually, we get it like it’s a it’s a dynastic situation. It’s not a dynastic situation, it’s a family situation. So women have more of an opportunity to get sort of, you know, get a bit of soft power.
Dr Emma Southon 11:34 Yeah, exactly. As soon as you have a situation where one person is in charge, you have wives, and you have children. And when you’ve got children, you’ve got daughters in law, grandchildren, and then you have women who can do things like murder, their husbands marry their brother in law, who’s also their cousin, murder their father running over,
Dr Rad 11:54 as you do as you do,
Dr Emma Southon 11:56 as you do, and can, they can do all of this really fun stuff. So that was fun. The Republican period is harder. And that was tough work, like finding women that you can include. Because they only appear at points of crisis. And very often, they only get a couple of lines to illustrate how terrible crisis is. But once you get into the Empire, like once things really start to kick off evidence wise, so late Republic, going into the Empire, and then coming like the later empire, there’s so many women that it became a part of like, what story do I want to tell, and what women kind of will tell that story. So always wanted it to be not the women who are already included in books. So for women already had a biography about her, I kind of was like, No, and that kind of easily cut out all the emphasis. And I didn’t want it to be a book about politics, and to tell the story that we already know. So I didn’t want it to have you know, Livia and Agrippina. All of the kind of big women that we already know about, I wanted it to be women that you’ve probably not really heard of, or that tell a story that is more about what it is like to live in the empire than to rule the Empire. There are some exceptions, just because I like the stories like Julia Maesa and Julia Mamaea. I include because I just think that Julia Maesa is so cool.
Dr Rad 13:24 Look most people wouldn’t have heard of them?
Dr Emma Southon 13:26 I don’t think yeah, no, yeah, they’re not women that you have heard of very often. And I wanted people from around the Empire. So I wanted to leave Rome at the point when the Empire becomes Imperial, and talk about women from around so that anytime that it was a choice between a woman that was in Rome, or a woman that was outside, I picked somebody who was somewhere else, basically just to because I wanted that empire to feel expansive. And I basically kind of had the time line almost and wanted it to be so we’ve got someone from every century, we’ve got someone pits people from various different parts of the empire, we’ve got different types of evidence. So we’ve got epigraphic evidence, you have archaeological evidence, we have text, different types of texts. And so if I have people that overlapped, I would cut them out. So I had at one point, there’s a woman in Nero’s like court, who is the keeper of his wardrobe. And then when Nero is overthrown, she goes to Egypt and blockades Alexandria, in an attempt to basically force Rome to put Nero back on the throne before he kills himself, which is a cool story, but also one, it’s just the story of Rome. And two, it’s a bit of political story, and it’s would be so I chose instead for that period to tell the story of women living or on the frontier in England, and having birthday parties and writing letters to each other, which is a story that people don’t know, everybody already knows that Nero was overthrown. So basically, when it came down to a choice of like, who in this period, this kind of like, middle of the first entry period is the lesser known, more interesting, more expansive story to tell? So that was like the criteria that I had.
Dr G 15:27 Fantastic. And I think this, I think you’ve also hit upon some of the potential challenges that come up with writing a history like this using women, because you, obviously that selection criteria allows you to sort of embody the expansiveness of Rome in a way that wouldn’t be possible, as you say, if you follow through that sort of imperial line, and imperial women. Are there additional challenges that come along with those sorts of choices, though?
Dr Emma Southon 15:56 Yes. Many, I mean, the writing about women is always a challenge, because you’re so rarely writing about the wear them as they present themselves, like women are so very rarely given this low their text don’t survive, basically. And when you do have texts that they wrote, like, like the like birthday party letters from the, from Vindolanda, which are delightful, but is like, four sentence. It’s, and you’re like that, I mean, that’s I’m so delighted to have these four sentences, but you’re not a lot to work from. And so, or Julia Balbilla, who’s like one of my favorites, who is in the court of Hadrian, and wrote four poems, which survive because she very, very cleverly had engraved on the bottom of an ancient Egyptian statue.
Dr G 16:53 Very clever, very clever.
Dr Emma Southon 16:55 And even better, because she was clearly very smart included her name in every single one of them.
Dr G 17:02 She knew somehow
Dr Emma Southon 17:04 She knew, and I feel like there must have been something where by like, life as a female poet, or like a woman who writes poetry must have already been that annoying thing where people were like, do you know you get that thing? Oh, well, she didn’t really write it, like maybe Propertius wrote it and just pretended to be a woman like, yeah, obviously. That’s it thing that men do. So she yeah, she included like, but you get so little. And so much of it has to be extrapolation. And, like, trying to add context from external things, which is tough work. And it’s why people don’t do it as much. But I think makes for more interesting stories in the end, because as it turns out, like when you start digging into archaeology matches, I find it hilarious to make fun of archaeologists out of like, minor jealousy. You know, there’s so much in archaeology and ethnography that you can illuminate the world that they lived in that is just not available in the in the text like Tacitus can only give you so much. And then when you start to Look at the archaeology, like the archaeology of forts for example, when you start to Look at it, you’re like, oh, wow, like life here was completely different to the way it is presented in the text like it was vibrant and semi luxurious for some people. And like learning that forts were rebuilt every time a different legion turned up to be so that it was specifically fit that legion, like, that’s amazing.
Dr G 18:40 I just need to redecorate this place it’s not speaking to me.
Dr Emma Southon 18:43 Yeah, basically they’d be like, Right Well, the last Legion that was here like had like, you know, eight units of cavalry, but we’ve got 12. So we’re just going to like build on an extra section for that. We’re not going to like feel like a lot like now you’d be like, well, we would just cram them in, like stick them in. But that no, we’re gonna knock down the whole thing and rebuild it. And you can see that in the archaeological record and then you can tell how big the legion was that was there is delightful.
All the mosaics must go.
Yeah, exactly. Like I hate this. This does not speak to me. I need a Medusa.
Dr Rad 19:15 Yeah, exactly. A merman? Who are they kidding?
Dr Emma Southon 19:18 Yeah. Also delightful from the Vindolanda, just like if you sit down and read, they’re just how much bureaucracy was going on in the Roman Empire. This is also delightful. Like, goddamn they love a list. They are just listing everything.
Dr Rad 19:32 Funnily enough, we were just talking about early quaestors and how the Romans wanted them for paperwork.
Dr G 19:40 Somebody needs to do the paperwork and it can’t be me because I’m too big and important.
Dr Emma Southon 19:44 Yeah, exactly. The two things that Romans loved one is beating up other people than the other one is just making lists about it like just paperwork. And it is devastating but we don’t have it.
Dr Rad 19:56 Hilarious. Now segwaying away from just this book, but thinking about your work as a whole, you’re obviously an academic, but you have recently been choosing to write for more of a popular audience. And in order to do that, effectively, you’ve adopted quite a distinctive style as a historian, which is obviously really resonating with readers, I know that I absolutely adore your books. I read them faster than anything else. Can you talk a little bit about your journey as a historian and how you got here?
Dr Emma Southon 20:29 Yeah, well, I realized this is this year has been 10 years since I like left academia. Because I left pretty much straight after my PhD, I did a bit of teaching afterwards. But because my department, I did my PhD and got closed down. And it was also the year that I turned 30. And I thought, at the time, academia in the UK looked really terrible. And it’s worse now. And I thought, do I want to do to eight to 10 years of short term contracts, and working at lots of universities. And my advisor for my PhD, he was Ray Lawrence, who’s now over there with you in Australia. And he once told me that he worked at five universities simultaneously when he graduated his PhD, and like, was teaching and just traveling around the country. I thought, do I want to do that? Or am I 30, and I don’t. And, like and it is, you know, is nine month contracts, it’s not having any job security for longer than that nine months, it’s not having to have three part time jobs on top of it. And honestly, I was not willing to do that as
Dr Rad 21:48 You make it sound so tempting, I don’t understand!
Dr Emma Southon 21:50 I know and also, then you have to be writing constantly, they brought in the REF. That was the year that they brought in the REF as well. We’re here the Research Excellence Framework, where you have to be writing constantly and trying to get points based, like literally trying to get points for your research, which is wild. And so I was like, do – do I want to be writing for points in a culture that is mean? Or do I just want to be not doing that. So I was actually teaching academic writing, is what I went into, and I was teaching mostly people doing vocational things like nurses and engineers, and allied health care professionals like working with them on their writing, which really made me a better writer, because working on people who don’t have any background in writing, or a lot of people coming to writing as late career changes and things like that, who will find writing to be terrifying, and then being like, No, it’s not, it’s fine. It’s okay, we can do this. Made writing more fun for me because it like, broke it down. And then I honestly accidentally became a writer for popular audiences, because I pitched Agrippina the book to a friend of a friend because he had an open pitching session. And he thought it sounded fun. And then I wrote the book that I would want to read. Because by that time, I had been out of academia for like, five years, and I had a job a full time job and a life and do not sit down and read like big chunky history books that are 600 pages long that feel like I have been told like intoned or lectured at, I also wrote a book that I would want to be in bed, or on the train commuting to my job, like, what’s the book that I want to read, I want to read the book that tells me the story in the most entertaining way. And it helps that I find the Romans to be hilariously pompous and deluded about themselves. And to the disconnect between how the Romans see themselves and how they actually are is inherently very funny to me. And so yeah, so basically, my thing is, I love history, and I left because academic history sucks, not because I was fed up with like, the process of academia and I, the thing that I love about history is being what my friend calls a time detective, like you have the evidence, and then you’re like a little poro, like trying to put that evidence together into make it make sense in some way. And you come up with a little hypothesis, and then somebody else goes, Oh, that’s interesting. What if the hypothesis was this and then you kind of have a bit of a chat about it. And so I’ve just been a time detective in a fun way now.
Dr G 24:55 Look, that sounds great. And I feel like that’s a pretty good description of what Dr. Rad and I I do as well. And it’s like, we hold up our little magnifying glasses and we gaze very closely at things. We’re like, you know, what, wouldn’t it be exciting if this was what was based on what we’ve seen here?
Dr Emma Southon 25:10 Yeah.
Dr Rad 25:11 When people ask me, how did you get started in history? I always say Nancy Drew.
Dr Emma Southon 25:15 Yeah. I mean that. Yeah, it’s basically. And I, you know, I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that I also love mystery novels.
Dr Rad 25:24 Absolutely
Dr G 25:24 Like, are you saying there’s a Venn diagram that could be a circle?
Dr Emma Southon 25:30 I think so. Yeah, I think you would find, like, especially people who love like the historiography part of like, the bit where you’re like, oh, cool, like the story of Lucretia. There’s like five different versions, and they’re told at different times. And when you put them all together, you realize that they’re actually like, emphasizing different parts of it. And they’re telling a story that speaks to themselves. And actually, this is just a fairy story that tells us more about the writer than it does about their actual events. And
Dr Rad 26:00 A creepy creepy fairy story.
Dr Emma Southon 26:04 As all fairy stories are like, if you read Grimm stories
Dr Rad 26:07 That’s true. That’s true. Yeah.
Dr Emma Southon 26:09 But yeah, I think that people who like that side and people who like Poirot books, there’s a significant overlap.
Dr Rad 26:17 Absolutely.
Dr G 26:19 All right, well, let us think about the content of the book for a moment, we want to whet the reader’s appetite, because everybody is obviously going to listen to this podcast and then immediately go out and purchase your book. Because of course, we’ve both read it and we love it. We’re giving it five stars. But I’m interested in first of all, like, before we get into like some of the women that we really enjoyed, which of the women that you’ve looked at, were you less familiar with when you started writing? And if it’s not too big enough, do you have a favorite?
Dr Emma Southon 26:54 I am quite a few of them kind of middle ones. So Turia I had only kind of vaguely like I knew of the ‘laudatio Turiae’, but never really read it. So she is the late Republican Woman who is the subject of the biggest, private inscription that we have from the Roman Empire, which is very cool. And Julia Felix, who was also my favorite, I think, I came across, it was Sophie Hay, Dr. Sophie. Hey, who works at Pompeii, who told me about her and she also told Elodie Harper, who wrote ‘The Wolf Den’ trilogy about her so she’s in that trilogy as well. And Sophie Hay is doing God’s work telling the world about Julia Felix, is based in Pompeii, like her complex that she runs. So those were probably the ones like anybody who came from archaeology, because my background is text was somebody that I had a really good time delving into and learning about completely, and being like, Oh, wow, you can Look at all these women all over the place, living their lives, being brilliant.
Dr G 28:04 Look at them go.
Dr Emma Southon 28:05 Yeah.
Dr Rad 28:06 Well, I have to agree that I had heard of, obviously, quite a few of the women that you’ve mentioned before. But like you, Dr. G, and I are very much text based people. We don’t often don’t an Indiana Jones outfit and go out into the wild. So
Dr G 28:22 Although maybe we should
Dr Rad 28:23 Probably but Turia was definitely one of the ones that piqued my interest the most especially coming from a time period that’s actually probably one of the better documented ones in terms of what we’ve got. But yet I had really not heard very much about Turia. So can you tell us a little bit more about her?
Dr Emma Southon 28:41 Yeah, so she is she’s a clearly of like, she is a woman of senatorial rank, definitely of consular rank, her husband is a consul. And she is so we know about her from this huge inscription that was found in five parts. When, during the, like 18th 19th century, Europeans went all over, like, putting together their big corpus of Latin inscriptions, and God bless them for doing but they found the four sections they put together, we don’t actually know that her name was Turia because there’s two bits that are missing. And both of them are the bits with the names. Which feels
Dr G 29:26 Roman history, jesus!
Dr Emma Southon 29:28 Doesn’t it feel like like just emblematic of history? We just, we just lost her name. But this inscription was found and it tells it’s written by her husband because she died before him. And it tells the story of her life, starting from when they get engaged, basically, or at least the bit that we have starts from when she gets engaged. It starts with her family being murdered during the war between Caesar and Pompey and her entire family is murdered on that in the villa. Bye Somebody, and he praises her for single handedly in the middle of a war, identifying and prosecuting the murderers.
Dr Rad 30:08 So she is Miss Marple.
Speaker 3 30:10 She is Miss Marple, and she successfully prosecutes them which is, you know, impressive. And then she is subject to a what is quite fascinating like little insight, somebody tries to claim her as part of their gens so that they can take guardianship of her, because she’s not yet married. And her father is now dead so that they can take control of the state that she has inherited from her murdered family. And she has to go to court and prove basically that she is not part of this gens that she is part of a different and therefore these people have no claim over her, which is fascinating, like thing that must have happened all the time. But it’s not in any text, because obviously that’s not interesting. But basically, her husband says like she just made it so much trouble for them. And she just kept fighting it so much that they gave up and went off to find an easier job. And he is not there to protect her during this time. And they’re not yet married because he has sided with Pompey and it’s off fighting with Pompey. And then when Pompey dies, and the war is over, she both sends him money and sends him resources and sends him enslaved people to help him out lest he ever suffer a moment of discomfort, and also personally talks to Caesar to get him pardoned, basically, so that he can come back to Rome. So she manages to rescue him from his bad decision of picking Pompey. He comes back to Rome and immediately joins the wrong side again, and is on the side of the killers of Julius Caesar, Julius Caesar. And
Dr G 32:01 I don’t know if she’s picked a winner.
Dr Rad 32:02 It’s really her patience that’s the amazing thing.
Dr Emma Southon 32:04 Yeah. So he says she immediately throws in his luck with Brutus and Cassius. And then during the wars between Octavian and Cassius and Brutus, he is fighting with them, and he goes off again, he is then put on the prescriptions list. So when the troit Second Triumvirate comes in, and they are putting together the prescriptions list to kill off lots of people who are considered to be enemies, because Octavian and Antony are significantly less lenient than Caesar ever was a he’s put on that list, which makes him basically prey it means that there is anybody can kill him, and there is a bounty on his head, you get money if you kill him, which opens up a whole way that you can talk about what the proscriptions were like and what that period was like in Rome, where people were literally just being murdered in the street constantly and lots of terrify stories. This is why we think that she may or may not have been called Turia, because there is a story and Appian who has a litany of these stories about a woman who hides her husband in an attic, which is also what the woman in the inscription does. He says she hit me in an attic, her and her sister hit me in an attic and then personally went to Octavian and then went to Lepidus and begged and begged and begged until they got him off the prescriptions list. So she protects him. She keeps him get manages to get him off of the list, manages to save him, manages to make it so that he can continue living his life. During that period, she also they’re living in Milo’s ex-house, the demagogic gang leader. He was exiled and so when Milo’s was exiled for doing a murder, he, his house was sold and they bought it beer so they were very, very rich and moved into it and then Milo’s supporters tried to take it back. So they literally invade her house while her husband is way and so she fights them off with her mother in law, she’s extremely great during all of this period, she saves him multiple times as she protects him from his series of bad decisions and she’s also obviously very you know, they have up to meet sympathies like in every situation they are against the popularity so and she’s and they also talk a lot about mixing their property as a romantic act which is really fascinating because the the story of marriage and women’s rights always says that oh elite women stopped doing ‘manus’ marriage and stopped mixing property and that is how they got more power. But so they talk a lot about how she they mix their property and she handed it all over to him and she didn’t run it herself as like this really romantic act. So they’re obviously like quite conservative couple. And then when things settled down, he continues to tell her story. So you also get the story not only of this woman who is like very politically engaged and politically active, but they can’t have children, it turns out that they try for years and years. And this is a bit where you’re like, oh, wow, you’re really telling the world everything about your wife.
Dr Rad 35:22 Airing it for everyone to read.
Dr Emma Southon 35:23 Yeah, yeah, just putting it on a like two meter high things. say she’s like, she tries everything to have children. And she’s like, but she can’t. And so she comes to him and says, obviously, the point of marriage is to have children and I can’t give them to you. And so what I’m going to do, my plan is I propose that we will get divorced. And I’ll find you a fertile wife. So that you can have as you can have children and continue your family name. And I’ll stick around and we’ll keep our property mixed. So we’ll still be like, kind of married in a way. But you will be able to have children and then I’ll be like, the third person in your relationship, and I’ll raise them like a sister in law, basically.
Dr G 36:06 Is this woman even real? Goodness!
Dr Rad 36:11 ‘Stand by Your Man’ was clearly written about her.
Dr Emma Southon 36:15 They do and they are super sweet because they do really seem to love each other. Like the way he writes about her at the end of like, you know, she, like, you know, I can’t I don’t know how I’m going to live without her. Like, shoot, my life is never going to know happiness again, that I’m like, so heartbroken. Everything is I should have died first. This isn’t fair. Like she was so good. And I am so rubbish.
Dr Rad 36:35 He’s right about that, he should have died a number of times!
Dr Emma Southon 36:39 I mean, if it hadn’t been for her, he would have died several times. But he, yeah, but he says, basically, he’s like, Absolutely not like I would never dishonour you that way. I would never make you like a kind of concubine to me like you’re my wife. I married you. I love you. This is no way marriage is more than just having kids, which is, again as a way that you don’t see marriage, Roman marriage, especially elite Roman marriage written about that much like it’s so rarely described as a meeting of hearts or something that is romantic. And so they, yeah, so they stay married for 50 years. They don’t have children. They are aunts and uncles to her. She has a sister who has children and so and then she dies when she’s in her 60s and he is bereft and writes this funeral oration and then inscribes it on two meter high monoliths and puts them on the Via Appia. And there they stay were presumably to his mind forever, so that everybody walking along Via Appia will know how much he loved his wife and how good she was and how she had all of these amazing qualities. And it’s so delightful because it’s such a it’s so emotional, in the way that they love each other, and also in the way that they like they talk about, or he talks about her in this such a beautiful way. But she or doesn’t come across in the way their love women do in a picker feed. Like when you’re reading women’s stories when men are writing about them after they’ve died very often. It’s like she was the most chaste woman and all she did was spend her time weaving wool, and she breastfed her children and she that’s how perfect she was like, okay, so she just had no personality at all she like she just wove wool for you and was chaste. But she has such a personality and this that it’s captivating.
Dr Rad 38:39 It is. So I’m actually exhausted just after I listen to that story. I can’t even imagine what it’d be like to live her life. But I kind of wish that she’d you know, being prepared for his clearly inevitable death. That we had her side of things where she’s like, Oh, my God, you’ll never guess who I married. And what he made me put up with.
Dr Emma Southon 38:59 But the thing is, she really seems to love him.
Dr Rad 39:01 I know. That’s the story that he tells though, right?
Dr Emma Southon 39:04 Yeah. But she does do all this stuff for him.
Dr Rad 39:07 She does.
Dr Emma Southon 39:09 And so I feel like, you know, everybody,
Dr Rad 39:12 She must have she must have.
Dr Emma Southon 39:13 There’s like a point I feel like it’s a bit like, you know, Marge and Homer.
Dr Rad 39:18 It must be because otherwise, it wouldn’t have been that difficult to walk away.
Dr Emma Southon 39:22 She’s like, is he a bit useless? Yes. Do I adore him with all my being? Yes.
Dr G 39:30 Oh, oh, Look, she’s a great character. And it’s just so impressive that we have, like the epigraphy is the is the thing that gives us insight into this – into her life at all. And this is where thinking about different types of evidence becomes really important because obviously like when we’re thinking about written sources, it’s very much that elite male perspective. And the prioritization of subject matter, it really shows. And so this more expansive Look at what Rome could be like and what life was like is becomes really important. And you mentioned Julia Felix before, and she’s one of the figures that I really enjoyed reading about. And obviously Pompeii stands out in people’s imaginations as well as this sort of landmark site and the eruption sort of put to a whole sort of like, how can I say without making it sound terrible?
Dr Rad 40:27 Time capsule?
Dr G 40:29 It kind of creates a time capsule? Yeah.
Dr Emma Southon 40:34 Yeah, it’s a it’s a terrible tragedy, but after 2000 years, suddenly becomes a historians blessing. Their way like, I’m sorry, I’m really sorry, that happened, but also, at least something good came out of it.
Dr Rad 40:45 Yeah, the silver lining. It’s the silver lining.
Dr Emma Southon 40:47 Yeah. Yeah. After two millennia you, you’re like, Okay, everybody’s dead now. I guess. So we can,
Dr Rad 40:54 we can move on.
Dr Emma Southon 40:55 Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, Pompeii is amazing by Julia Felix’s complex is one of the most amazing things. I think the things that people think of when they think of Pompeii, are the theater and then also the like the big houses the villas, which are the story of Rome, that we kind of know like the big impressive houses. And for a while, that’s what people thought Julia Felix’s complex was when they excavated thought was just a kind of a big, weird villa. But outside of it, there is a inscription which was attached to the wall, which said what it actually was, and it says “Julia Felix, daughter Spurius, offers for rent her leisure complex, which contains shops, baths fitted out for the well to do apartments and gardens for a period of five years, Inquire within.” and all of a sudden, archeologists could look at it and go, Oh, it’s a it’s a space where people can go to hang out, it’s not like a private location, because what it is is to was to two houses that have been knocked together. And she moved a road like you can see where a road was redirected, so that she could knock through walls through to expand it, which is amazing. And so it’s got a hot food bar. And in the book, I take you on a we like tour of it so you can see up it’s got a hot food bar outside, which appears to up added on because five years ish prior to the eruption, there was an earthquake in Pompeii, like little warning sign, and that knocked out most of the original leisure district and meant that people coming from the amphitheater, when after games had to go down different roads, and one of them was the road that Julie Felix’s thing was on and so she popped in a hot food bar in order to take advantage of foot traffic, which is brilliant. So it’s got a hot food bar, and it’s got baths, which are very fancy, but very like boutique. So they’re like a little like you can only fit about eight in the toilets, you can fit eight people which is small for a Roman public toilet. And then it has this at the entrance way has a really unusual, almost unique painting – fresco – of not of mythological characters, not of like garden scenes, or of scenes of religious character. But of an every day scene from Pompeii is forum on market day. And has ordinary people doing ordinary things which is so unusual and it’s got like people buying cloth and a person making shoes and horses with inexplicably enormous penises and and like children in school and a person giving a penny to a beggar. And like all of these just like normal activities of like basically the kind of middle classes of Rome. And then inside it has these gardens with little fish ponds and little bridges and a little dining room like a tiny little trick scenario where you can recline and dine. So you have the three couches, and you can do upper class elite dining where you recline on your arm and then people bring you tiny little things of food and it’s got a water feature in the room. And it’s basically a fancy restaurant, for people to go and have a fancy meal out for a fancy occasion and then have a walk around a private garden where there will not be a million other people like in the forum.
Dr G 44:51 I kind of love this where it’s like, I can’t afford my own villa, but what I can afford is I can afford to rent this fancy dining room and we’ll have the lead experience without having to
Dr Rad 45:01 Like a spa day with a lovely meal at the end.
Dr Emma Southon 45:04 Exactly. You know, and it’s like I always imagined it as a kind of thing that you would do for like a special occasion. So like for my birthday, I go to, you know, a Michelin starred restaurant for one meal. And it’s like a big splash out thing where I spend lots of money, but I get like this experience or Yeah, going for a spa day where you do not normally have the leisure time to spend an entire day having, like just basking in steam, but for that one day you can. And that’s basically what seems that Julia Felix’s complex is, it is a space where people can go and have the experience of luxury of time of being served of quiet and privacy, which is something that is so rare in an urban environment, and they can splash out for it, or they can pay for it because it is not something like people like Cicero, and the rich guys are like the Villa of the Silver Wedding or whatever, they can have that all day every day, because privacy and silence and quiet and lush greenery are things that are only available to those who can afford it above you, apparently there was a market for people to be to buy that for one day, or buy that for one evening and to experience it as a luxury, which is and that kind of middle class of Rome of the Roman Empire is so invisible. And it’s so nice to know that that happened and that there were people who would, you know, come in for a birthday or for an anniversary or for, you know, a special little treat and recline and be fed fix instead of having porridge on the street like we normally do.
Dr Rad 46:51 Because you want to eat porridge when you’re on the move, of course, yeah.
Dr Emma Southon 46:55 You know, some you know, sometimes you’re running through the street, you get a big bowl of stew and a bit of wine on a quick go. But sometimes you want to sit down and take your time.
Dr Rad 47:04 She is fascinating, because the very fact that she’s obviously involved in business and her name as well. Julia Felix, it obviously hints at someone who truly is a self made person. And obviously, yeah, obviously does not come from the elite herself.
Dr Emma Southon 47:16 Yeah. And like I said, She’s the daughter of Spurius. So people have suggested that maybe she’s illegitimate, or she doesn’t know who her father is. But she has a citizen. And she, you know, doesn’t mention her husband. And then she has like in the back rooms. There’s her space where she lives through a door. That is a tiny little like villa with an office and where she does her work. And the office walls are covered in paintings of food and money.
My favorite things, yeah.
Which for someone who was apparently making her money serving food, I think it’s great.
Dr G 47:59 Just really embracing everything about how far she’s come and how she’s made it.
Dr Emma Southon 48:02 Yeah exactly. And then she’s got to this point, apparently, in 79, where she’s like, Okay, I’m ready to let someone else run this, and I’m going to rent it out. And you know, I’m still the owner, but I’ll make making my money from rents, and I’m gonna go and maybe she’s gonna go and live a life of luxury somewhere. Or maybe she’s got a new business that she wants to start. But she’s like, at that point. She is she’s ready to let somebody else do the day to day.
Dr G 48:29 I think that’s really cool. It’s like it gives you such an insight into Pompeii, and how Roman life is actually working. And I imagine this is not the only place where this kind of thing is happening at all.
Dr Emma Southon 48:39 Yeah, it’s just the only one we can definitely identify like, because it is the only one that has a sign.
Dr G 48:47 Very clear signage. Very handy.
Dr Emma Southon 48:49 Yeah, put more signs on things, people.
Dr G 48:52 Come on, guys. Come on guys. For history.
Dr Emma Southon 48:54 Yeah, ideally, you must really inscribed them in stone. Because yeah, inscribing stuff in stone is the way to make sure that things last.
Dr G 49:03 We’ll keep that in mind. I want to turn your mind now to like a really later period and sort of getting towards the the edges of the Roman world in a different way. And the figure of Zenobia, who is a figure that maybe people have heard of, but maybe don’t know much of the story about, but she’s also a very intriguing figure in her own right.
Dr Emma Southon 49:24 She is and she’s quite not controversial, but like the interpretation of her is quite contentious, I think. So Zenobia is a woman who is known as a Syrian kind of invader, I think is probably the way that she is often described. If you know any kind of Syrian history. She is a symbol of Syrian identity to a lot of people and she used to be on Syrian banknotes, and the way that she is often described as as a woman who ran an empire in Syria that is somehow outside of the Roman Empire. And the way that I interpret her is as a woman who did the exact same thing as like every general in the third century did which is declare herself and Augustus, and attempted to take over the Roman Empire. Because she, to me is a Roman woman within the Roman Empire, who uses an army to attempt to rule the Roman Empire, which makes her more interesting. So she is the wife of a guy called Odaenathus, who is a kind of weird liminal figure on the edge of the Empire during the third century. So the period when the Empire is fragmented, and there’s about 50 people who claim to be emperor in a 30 year period. And it’s kind of militarily and politically chaotic, whereby nobody knows and prayers don’t really seem to last more than 20 minutes, almost all of them die of being murdered, except for one guy who’s hit by lightning. And it and nobody has the kind of combined military power and personal power to be able to get more than two legions to follow them. And at the time, like basically, a lot of keeping the borders happy. Keeping them secure, is to outsource to people who are big men in their area. And he is one of those guys on the border in Syria with the Persian Empire, the Parthian Empire, and the Parthian Empire at the time is on the rise and is encroaching on Armenia, as it always is. But it’s and this is after Rome is going right the way down into Mesopotamia. So Roman power goes all the way down into Iraq and Iran at this stuff at this time. And so they are charged with basically keeping Mesopotamia as a province and Syria. And he is described in a way that is either means that he is a kind of ko emperor, or it’s just a kind of honorary title. And you can argue about it for the rest of your life. But there’s no real answer to it. But he is running Roman legions, and he is a power down there. And he’s given consular power. And he’s very important, and they have a son together. And then he is murdered by one of his men, because he allegedly he, he takes away this guy’s horse, and this guy is so furious about it, that he murders him.
Dr G 52:41 That’s it. That’s the last straw, you cannot have my horse.
Dr Emma Southon 52:44 Exactly. And so. But what Zenobia does, which is kind of on Roman, but makes sense is, she goes, Okay, and we’re so he had all of these titles and names, and we. And so now my son has all of those titles and names. And so she just kind of gives her son who is like eight, all of the titles that her husband had, and then start ruling as his regent. So she just takes over the role that her husband had running the armies being the face of power in that whole region of Syria and Mesopotamia, she seems to do some military stuff down in Mesopotamia, which we only know because there are some thoughts that are built down there, which have her name on them. So she’s doing something. And then at a certain point, she turns around, declares herself Augusta declares her son to be Augustus, and invades Egypt.
Dr G 53:48 Plot twist.
Dr Emma Southon 53:50 And this is a point where everyone’s like, Oh, hang on, so she destroys a legion in Arabia, then she invades Egypt goes right the way down to Alexandria, and chases out the governor there and sends him on his way, kills a bunch of people, and then settles in and she starts producing coins, and she starts producing lots and lots of bureaucracy. Because where the bureaucracy does survive is in Egypt, because the papyrus survives really well.
Dr Rad 54:18 And the climate.
Dr Emma Southon 54:19 Yeah, yeah. And so what we have is loads and loads of documents, which suddenly start saying, oh, in the year of the reign, like year two of the rain of Iranian and year one of the rain of my son and she basically declares him co emperor of the Roman Empire, which are ralien, who was now emperor and he’s kind of dealing with stuff with the Goths over in the West, he is less keen on this idea, because he’s like, hang on, Who the fuck are you? Who the fuck is that?
Dr G 54:54 Also, what are you doing in the breadbasket of Rome? Get out! Get out, now!
Dr Emma Southon 54:57 Please, you are stressing me out in the breadbasket of Rome! Exactly. And so he pivots very hard away and kind of abandons the situation with the Goths and comes charging into Egypt and fights her. As it turns out, she picked the wrong person to declare herself co Emperor with because if it had been one of the rubbish ones like a Claudius Gothicus or something, he probably would have left it. But Aurelian is the least rubbish and is the person as it turns out, who has the political and military power, and the charm and the ability and the kind of profound balance of being interested in paperwork and being nice to his his soldiers to pull the Emperor back together under one person? So he turns around and blasts into Egypt to fight her she withdraws from Egypt and is like, oh, no, it’s okay. Maybe I’ll just stay.
Dr Rad 55:50 You have it. You have it back.
Dr G 55:52 Byeeeee.
Dr Emma Southon 55:54 But she is still producing coins. And she has, like, we have all these coins from Syria where she’s like, it’s Zenobia on one side, and Juno on the other. And it has her son on one side and Jupiter on the other end, like they’re Roman coins, and they she’s calling them Augustus, and she calls herself an Augusta. And she very clearly is wants to be a part like is a Roman person being a part of the Roman Empire. And they have a bunch of battles. And eventually she is defeated, in in Antioch. And she tries to allegedly, possibly maybe tries to flee on a camel and is caught. But which may be it seems like the kind of story that Romans in Rome would tell about like a woman from the east like, Oh, she just got on a camel, you know what they’re like,
Dr Rad 56:39 She hopped on a magic carpet, and she was out of there.
Dr Emma Southon 56:42 Exactly like but, but it’s a good story. So and she has captured but Aurelian has a bit of Julius Caesar in him. So he lets her live. And he takes her to Rome. And then she lives the rest of her life in Rome, and apparently has more children.
Dr Rad 56:55 Mind blowing, I thought for sure she’d end up dead.
Dr Emma Southon 56:58 Yeah. Yeah. And so she, she is very often presented as someone who tries to invade the Roman Empire. But to me it is very clear that she is someone who wants to rule the Roman Empire and who was like, all these other rubbish guys are doing it. Like she herself puts down another person who tries to declare himself emperor and his children Emperor’s in Syria, and everybody else is doing I don’t see why I can’t get involved.
Dr Rad 57:25 It’s hashtag trending guys.
Dr Emma Southon 57:27 Exactly, like jumping on that bandwagon. And like thinks that she has a real chance. And she you know, she does. She’s the only person who ever invades Egypt, which is impressive, all by itself. And so I think she’s really interesting, both as in the way that we and the way the Romans themselves, but the way that we talk about Romanness, like what about her means that we don’t call her Roman, but also the way that we talked about the Roman Empire and like, at particularly at this period, like when it is all kinds of fragmenting around what gets does still be included in the Roman Empire, and what certainly gets written off from what from thing because this is happening at the same time that the Gallic Empire succeeds. And a guy over in Gaul takes Britain bit of Spain and declares it’s no longer part of the Roman Empire that he is doing his own thing.
Dr G 58:21 We’re independent now. Yeah, it’s been long enough, it’s time to go it alone.
Dr Emma Southon 58:26 It’s like, No, I want my own little empire. And they did. They’re doing their own little kind of situation over there. And but it seems that Zenobia was going to basically keep going, like, be fun to see what she had done had had she had a rubbish Emperor against her rather than gigachad Aurelian.
Dr G 58:51 Yeah, certainly, this seems like the possibility for it to politically work out, actually, yeah, she can hold those regions. And the emperor in Rome is also like, well, I can’t take them back necessarily, let’s make a deal. Then all of a sudden, you’d have something very different going on there in terms of what’s happening with her career and how it pans out for her son as well.
Dr Emma Southon 59:13 Exactly. Because this is the time when the situation with the Goths is really like a problem. And for a good few decades, there emperors have been tied up just desperately trying to keep the gods out, even though all the gods want is to be Roman. And had they been like right, they would have resolved that situation immediately. But they they have been tied up fighting Gods on the Danube and so our ralien is smart enough as a military leader that he takes a tactical loss in order to take Egypt under his own personal control again, but had you had a less tactical one who was like, oh, no, this is the more kind of threatening thing I need to stay here. I can leave the guards and had let her stay in Egypt then you might have a very different – there’s a novel that somebody could write about that counterfactual.
Dr Rad 1:00:04 I love it. Well, so far, the women that we’ve talked about are all what we would loosely describe as pagan because of course, for the vast majority of Rome’s history, the religion that is followed is made up of many gods, etc, etc. However, right at the end a bit of a plot twist of Christianity becoming a major religion, if not the religion of the Roman Empire. And that leads us to the final woman that we thought we quickly discuss, who is Melania the Elder?
Speaker 3 1:00:36 Yeah, who is on this kind of cusp. She lives in a world where Christianity wasn’t legal than it was. And she kind of exemplifies this time when Roman elite women could be Christian out loud, kind of for the first time, but is a woman who does not want to leave behind the benefits of a life as a Roman. And so she is one of the first women who can call herself a Roman Christian, basically. So most of the women before that you have to or most Christians really, before Constantine, you have to choose whether you are a Roman or a Christian. And a lot of you know, the line that that is in all of the trial transcripts and lives that we have for Christian martyrs is that they say no, I am a Christian ‘Christianus sum’ or ‘Christianus sum’, some rather than ‘Romanus sum’. and you cannot be both like and that is why they are persecuted because they won’t sacrifice to the Emperor. Because there seems to be undermining and eventually, they’re, like, constantly in caves. And it’s like fine, we’ve managed to do here is make you stronger. And so she is one of the first people who can say I am a Roman Christian, and she can exist in the Roman world as an elite woman who owns huge amounts of land like she is she actually descends from Marc Anthony’s family line. And she owns as part of her family, enormous swathes of Europe, and is taking income from that. And she she grows up in Spain, and then she moves with her son to Rome after she is widowed. And this being the ancient world, she’s like 23. And she’s widowed, she has already lost two children. And she goes to Rome, where she sets him up as the urban prefect and then spent 10 years living in Rome, preparing her son to be the prefect. And what you have to do is do the games like the big games of the year, and you have to save up for like a decade to do that. So they declare who the prefect is going to be 10 years in advance, so that they have time to save up to the
Dr Rad 1:02:58 Like the Olympics.
Dr Emma Southon 1:02:59 Yeah, exactly. So you have time to prepare. And so she she does actually spent 10 years living in Rome, and then her son comes of age, she becomes a prefect, she does the games. And then she immediately leaves Rome, sells all of her like personal possessions, and then takes huge amount of money and goes to Egypt, because the monastic I was gonna say trend for like, monastic life is kicking off in Egypt at this time, this is a fourth century, kind of mid late fourth century. And she goes off to Egypt to go and visit all of the desert mothers and fathers and ingratiate herself in life in Christian Egypt. And she goes around all of these people and talk to them. And like, these are people who have walled themselves up into their tombs so that they can live there and people who are like, it’s a, it’s a great period of Christian history and history in the Roman Empire, where people were doing deeply odd, like, exercises of stamina and endurance, and of deprivation, like Simon Stylites is, is standing on a, he’s just standing on a pole. And people come and see him and the more people that come see him, the higher his pole gets, but that’s what he does. He just stands on a pole all day, every day, and people are going off into the desert and not masturbating and crying about it a lot. And there’s some great stories about like men, like like thinking about killing themselves, because they’re just constantly tormented by visions of women and young boys and they
Dr Rad 1:04:41 What a life. What a life.
Speaker 3 1:04:43 yeah, but they’re not allows to touch it. And women walling themselves into tombs, or like, you know, these really intense aesthetic practices. And she goes around and visits them all and then kind of decides that she’s not that’s not the life for her because what she enjoys is the life of a patroness. And so she goes to Jerusalem and starts a nunnery. And with her friend, she opens a, they open, open a nunnery, a monastery next to each other where women can come and live monastic lives. And she dedicates herself to a life of very performative asceticism whereby she sort of refuses to wash and then borates people who do, like, rich, she has a huge amount of money, and which she continues to get because her son is now running all of her states, the family estates, and he is sending her money. So she is still benefiting from all of the states that she previously had. And she is pouring all of that money into building up Jerusalem as a Christian space and planting Christianity all over Jerusalem and kind of tamping down the Judaism because they, after Helena, they really want Jerusalem to be the home of Christianity and to shove out the Jews. And she is popular enough there and doing a good enough job that they give her a bit of the True Cross.
Dr G 1:06:13 Sweet.
Dr Rad 1:06:14 This sounds very much like a case of her being able to have her cake and eat it too.
Dr Emma Southon 1:06:18 Yeah, it’s very much a case of a woman who chooses to present as poor while not ever being actually poor. So she, they give her a bit of the True Cross. And then she goes back to visit her family in Rome. One of whom is a quite famous bishop in Italy, where she does a lot of marching around triumphantly, basically. But in the most part, so her family, like go on a visit. And they, they all turn up in like golden carriages wearing purple and red and whatever. And she turns up riding a donkey dressed in rags, holding a bit of the True Cross.
Dr G 1:07:02 Nice work.
Dr Rad 1:07:04 And just like Jesus before her.
Dr Emma Southon 1:07:05 Exactly and you just feel like rolling your eyes so hard, like, like pretending to be poor and so silly. But anyway, she gives a bit this bit of true cross away. And then she gets into a bunch of fights with St. Jerome, who she hates, and he hates her, which is fair, because he’s awful. And she is possibly in Rome, just before the sack of Rome in 410, or she has left. But she inspires her daughter, Melania the Younger, who is potentially the more famous to also become an aesthetic woman, and her and her husband decide that they’re going to sell all of their land free all of their enslaved people, give away everything and become genuinely poor. Which Melania the elder and her son are appalled by and they write to the Emperor.
Dr G 1:08:02 You’ve taken it too far!
Dr Emma Southon 1:08:03 Yeah, exactly. No, no, the thing is, we pretend to be poor, like we’re not actually poor.
Dr Rad 1:08:08 We get to turn it on and off. It’s like a switch.
Dr Emma Southon 1:08:11 Like if I need to have a nice bed, then I need the nice bed like we don’t like and I don’t need to use this money to buy influence and power like I don’t. It’s not what how else, okay, will take me here. Yeah, I need to be purchasing it. Otherwise, because what you have at this time, like, Jerome’s Paula starts her own monastery as well in, in, in Jerusalem, and she is very famous for basically giving over her daughters to Jerome, who He then proceeds to starve to death. But she starts her own monastery and and they’re they have a very specific hierarchy depending on how much money you bring into the monastery with you. So if you want your your social status is outside of the monastery, you there is a hierarchy within the monetary and so the trappings of the world outside Do not leave you when you go and become a nun, you can absolutely go and become a nun and still be a rich, or still be treated as rich and even if you’re pretending that you’re not, but Melania the younger is like no, no, no, I’m gonna give it all away. That’s what Jesus said. And they genuinely try to get the Emperor to stop her, but they can’t. So she sells off everything frees 8000 people, and then goes off to live a genuinely aesthetic. Much to the horror of the rest of her family and then Romans sacked and everything changes. But she she is so fascinating at this point at which Christianity has become legal and so Romans can kind of paste the trappings of a kind of, I suppose, like secular life on to Christianity and can and it’s stops being a thing that you actually have to die for. And you genuinely have to suffer. You can kind of choose to suffer in a way that you can opt out of that.
Dr G 1:10:12 Wait a minute, performative Christianity?
Dr Emma Southon 1:10:15 Yeah. But like they still desperately want to suffer, because that has become part of Christianity. But they don’t. It’s only impressive if you’re choosing to suffer. Like it’s only impressive if you are a rich person who is choosing to wear scratchy rags. If you’re just a poor person who is wearing scratchy rags, you can then that that’s not impressive, like, no, that’s just having a shit life. But being a very rich person who could be wearing silk and who is surrounded by people who are wearing silk, but you’re riding a donkey and wearing scratchy things, that everybody’s like, Oh, my God, what a wonderful.
Dr G 1:10:59 The sacrifice, the sacrifice
Speaker 3 1:11:01 Exactly. And all of a sudden, the fate of Christianity changes and becomes something that people can compete over in a way that you couldn’t really do before. And you’ve the first inklings of what a Christian Roman Empire is going to look like start to appear. And it’s, it’s fascinating.
Dr Rad 1:11:24 I must admit, it’s been a while since I looked at this period, so I was glad to be reminded that the Romans was still unintentionally hilarious. Mostly, yeah, mostly when they were trying to be really serious, even when they became Christian doesn’t make a difference. Doesn’t matter what religion it doesn’t Yeah.
Dr Emma Southon 1:11:41 The more serious the Romans try to be, very often the funnier they are. And there’s this story, like Melania is always surrounded by men who are writing. And so there’s a couple of stories like stories that run about, and there’s this great one about her traveling, she’s moving a new nun from Jerusalem to Egypt, and then traveling across Egypt and cranker, traveling across the desert. So as a little group, and one guy who’s with them, who’s a bishop, they get to their resting place, it’s the desert, they’re in Egypt, it’s hot, and he washes his hands and face and Melania loses her mind, and like, berate him as like, I never wash my face, and I have never laid on anything softer than the hard ground. And even though I’m in my 60s, you will never see me do anything so decadent as to wash my hands, even though doctors say that I might actually be less ill if I did. I still like, Oh, my God, wash woman. But yes, she just loves to be grubby. And just so that she can one up people.
Dr Rad 1:12:47 Well, you know, I actually made her a bit of my own patron saint when I went to school camp and could not wash for several days.
Dr Emma Southon 1:12:57 See, this, incidentally, is why I never became an archaeologist, because I could never deal with the grubby hands.
Dr Rad 1:13:04 Yeah, I get that, I get that. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of those amazing stories, people definitely need to go out and grab your book because it is filled with so many more. So can you please tell us where can people buy the book? And where can people find you.
Dr Emma Southon 1:13:21 So you can you can buy the book hopefully in any good bookshop. You so it’s called ‘A History of the Roman Empire in 21 Women’. And it should be hopefully available anyway. You can go to my website, which is emmasouthon.com. Then there are links to places that you can bite there, you can also find me at ‘History is Sexy’, which is historyissexy.com. As long as your adult filters don’t filter out the name, because apparently they sometimes do. But you can find it on all good podcast feeds. And we answer questions that people don’t want to spend two days researching themselves. So and you can ask us questions there. And yeah, I think that’s all the places and you can find me on Instagram at ‘Nuclearteeth’, where I put links to things when I remember. And you can also see many, many, many pictures of my cat.
Dr G 1:14:16 Oh, Look, thank you so much for spending this time with us. We really appreciate it. And reading this book has been a real thrill and pleasure. And we can only imagine that people listening to this episode will feel the energy and the vibrancy of the women coming through in this conversation because the whole book is like this. It’s full of great stuff. As a final question, Would you have any hints about what’s to come in your writing world?
Dr Emma Southon 1:14:45 The next book that I am currently writing is a children’s book with Greg Jenner who used to be the historical consultant for Horrible Histories and now does the ‘You’re Dead to Me’ podcast on the BBC. And we are writing a children’s book about Roman Britain, which is an introduction to historiography for kids.
Dr G 1:15:08 Fantastic. That sounds really, really exciting.
Dr Rad 1:15:11 Sounds like another winner. Well, we as we cannot thank you enough for coming back, back, back back back again – which only you will find funny – and we hope very much to be able to chat to you when that next one comes out.
Dr Emma Southon 1:15:25 Thank you. I’m always here to chat to you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Victims Unit
Oct 19, 2023
In this episode we tackle the years 413 and 412 BCE. These years come hard on the back of the murder of the patrician Postumius. Rome is facing challenges that seem to be bound up in the spolia in times of war and the broader annalist focus on the idea of the Struggle of the Orders which has been the defining feature of the early republic in Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. To catch up on the unfortunate fate of Postumius, check out Episode 142 – A Wrongheaded Man.
Episode 143 – Special Victims Unit
Onwards and Upwards?
Murder is not something to be overlooked lightly, especially when the victim is a Roman patrician. It might be time for an investigation! And not just any investigation, but a special taskforce is assembled to consider all the evidence and follow the clues wherever they lead.
Livy mentions this group as a quaestio perpetua, but there’s good reason to be suspicious of this classification for the investigators. Strong evidence for the quaestio perpetua doesn’t emerge until the second century BCE over 250 years on from 413 BCE!
Agrarian Reform
Will Rome find a way to reform its practices around conquered land? This topic comes back to the fore as we have the name for a of the tribunes of plebs. Roman conquest of new lands also brings this thorny subject back into the public discourse. How historical could the issue be at this point in the early republic? And will the patricians finally offer the plebeians something on this matter? Time will tell!
Issues with the Volscians
Rome’s perennial tousle with their neighbours, the Volscii, continues in 413 BCE. The Hernicians seek Rome’s aid against the Volscian forces and Rome is happy to oblige. The city of Ferentinum comes to our attention through this situation. We learn about the location of Ferentinum as likely corresponding with modern Ferentino, which is to the southeast of Rome, and likely part of the territory of the Hernicians at this time. What happens next to the city of Ferentinum? Tune in to find out!
Is that Ferentinum way down to the southeast of Rome in the territory of the Hernicii? It surely is! Source: https://www.heritage-history.com/
The Return of the Icilii
Perhaps Rome’s most famous plebeians gens at this point in early republican history is the Icilii. And in 412 BCE, we see another member of the Icilii gens come into the role of tribune of the plebs. Famously, the Icilii are connected with the Lex Icilia de Aventino Publicando which our annalist tradition places as early as 456 BCE. Looking to brush up on this? Check out our Episode 104 – Aventine, Aventine. Another Icilius is also connected with the second decemvirate on account of being engaged to Verginia. To revisit Verginia’s tale, see Episode 114 – The Tale of Verginia.
Things to Listen Out For
Ancient sources? What sources?
Leniency for those found guilty
Land redistribution in Bolae?
Does Rome even have ager publicus to redistribute???
Volero returns!?
The introduction of later sources Florus and Zonaras
The Latin League
Is Rome entering an expansionist phase?
A history of the Icilius gens
Pestilence!
The Hernician Federation
Our Players 413 BCE
Consuls
Aulus (or Marcus) Cornelius – f. – n. Cossus (Pat.)
Lucius Furius (L. f. Sp. n.?) Medullinus (Pat.)
Interrex
Quintus Fabius Vibulanus (Pat.)
Our Players 412 BCE
Consuls
Quintus Fabius – f. – n. Ambustus Vibulanus (Pat.)
Gaius Furius – f. – n. Pacilus (Pat.)
Tribune of the Plebs
Lucius Icilius
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy 4.51.1-4.52.1
Dr G reads Diodorus 13.43.1, 14.54.1; Florus 1.17.1-2; Zonarus 7.20
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of Freesounds.
The Roman remains at Ferentino (ancient Ferentinum) include a first-second century CE archway which now has a road running around and through it. Image credit to Pietro Scerrato.
Automated Transcript
Edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:55 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:04 And I am Dr. Rad
Dr G 1:07 Whoohoo, together at last across the waves of the internet.
Dr Rad 1:13 Excellent. Well, Dr G., here we are chatting about the history of Rome from the founding of the city. It’s been a bit of a weird moment, I think lately, because we’ve just been speeding through, you know, in a way that we never had really before. It’s crazy. The years are whizzing by
Dr G 1:30 Our sources are crumbling around us its the sort of thing that makes ancient historians concerned. And also avoid writing scholarship on because they’re like, I don’t know what to say. Everything’s, it’s just cracks, cracks and no evidence. Ah!
Dr Rad 1:49 Definitely. I mean, one of our big themes of light has definitely been this conflict of the orders between the patricians and the plebeians, that seems to be the narrative that they are flogging to death.
Dr G 2:00 It is a narrative that we’re not sure is real, but continues nonetheless in the sources that survive.
Dr Rad 2:08 You gotta love that when you when you’re not sure that it’s real, and yet it continues on.
Dr G 2:14 It’s amazing. It’s amazing. So we’ve had some trials and tribulations with a certain Postumius over the last couple of years,
Dr Rad 2:24 Yes, we have indeed, and this kind of fits into this whole conflict of the orders thing. So the last year we were talking about was 414 BCE, and in this year, a very shocking event happened, actually, because the Romans are big on military stuff. Most people I think, know that. There you go. headlines around the world academic says, “Rome was big on military stuff”. No one’s ever said that before. So they’re big on their military stuff, which means that they are big on order, discipline. And yet, we had the murder of a patrician elite one Postumius by his own men, seemingly insulted by a comment that he made during a conflict of the orders moment where there was debate about what was happening, you know, with the policies back in Rome. .
Dr G 3:20 Yeah, now, this is interesting, because I do have a source that’s going to come up in this episode. So we’re going to be looking at 413 BCE. And it suggests that this moment with Postumius is one that like many things in this early period of ruins history is difficult to nail down to a very specific time period.
Dr Rad 3:43 Okay, okay. I’m intrigued, I’m intrigued.
Dr G 3:46 Does he come back from the dead only to be killed again?
Dr Rad 3:50 He had some more sick burns and he hasn’t done leveling them at the plebeians yet
Dr G 3:57 Look, he wakes up from his grave has another shout and gets murdered for a second time.
Dr Rad 4:03 How dare you all question me you lowly vagabonds.
Dr G 4:09 Goodness me.
Dr Rad 4:10 But we did leave on this very dramatic moment, because I mean, honestly, I think in any society, the murder of someone who’s supposed to be in charge is a big thing. And I think in any society, they say it’s particularly the murder of someone who’s like a general or something like that. Yeah. Someone who’s really invested with authority in that society. It is a really big deal. So I don’t think that the Senate are just going to turn around and go, Well, he was a bit of a douchebag. I, I think they’re going to want answers!
Dr G 4:42 I didn’t like him either!
Dr Rad 4:43 I think they’re going to want the truth!
Dr G 4:46 This is hugely problematic, as you say, because he was invested with legitimate power as a general of the Roman army. He is one of these figures that we assume is legally capable wielding what we call imperium, this capacity to lead troops for those troops to then turn around and murder him, suggests a severe breakdown of Roman discipline on the one hand, but also calling into question the whole apparatus of how does legitimate power function. And part of the way it’s upheld is through the process of enacting it repeatedly. So power gets reified over and over again, through every Roman general being able to successfully lead an army, whether they win or lose, coming back with that may where possible, and still in charge of them. And for him to not get to that point and for the troops to make the decision that revolting against the general is a is the best course of action, in any scenario suggests that there is some real internal problems in Rome, if this story is to be believed.
Dr Rad 5:58 Definitely. And I mean, even though what he said was despicable. I mean, he’s patrician elite now come on. At the same time, it was just a comment. It was just a comment said in passing, for them to, you know, take it so personally, that they’re going to go to murder. I mean,
Dr G 6:18 sources might disagree, though, as well. So like, the one sort of source that I had was talking about how he just refused to allow them to have an appropriate cut of the spoils.
Dr Rad 6:28 That’s true. That’s true, like there was the backstory, but it seems to have been this comment that kind of tipped them over the edge, which to me, suggests that there is something more serious going on here. If that’s the trigger. There’s something really serious going on.
Dr G 6:43 Yeah. What is it that we don’t know?
Dr Rad 6:45 Yeah. And in my account, as well, last episode, we really did leave on a cliffhanger not just in the sense of the murder happening, but also a real fear amongst a senatorial slash patrician class, because in Livy, they’re interchangeable that there was going to be a plebeian elected for the first time to supreme command: military tribune with consular power if they didn’t do something to try and prevent that from happening. So they definitely concerned that once this is that they’re taking it seriously because they’re like, if we don’t step in right now, we’re going to actually have plebeians get ultimate power, which even though technically we agree that that was possible. We also secretly agree that it was never gonna happen.
Dr G 7:31 I’m having to agree on paper. Never want to see it in real life.
Dr Rad 7:34 Yeah, absolutely. So.
Dr G 7:36 Typical patricians.
Dr Rad 7:37 I know. So shall we segue to 413 BCE and see what the Romans are going to make of this mess?
Dr G 7:43 Let’s do it.
It’s 413 BCE in ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 8:20 And I know we’re not having military tribunes with consular power this time because it’d be too much of a risk – a plebeian might get in so Dr G., tell me who are the consuls for this year?
Dr G 8:30 We have first off, we have Aulus or Marcus – we’re not sure about his praenomen – Cornelius Cossus.
Dr Rad 8:39 A name we know well.
Dr G 8:42 Yeah, but from a branch of the family that has been in power before certainly, but we’re not sure that this guy has necessarily had the top job before.
Dr Rad 8:52 No, no. I mean, he’s not the famous Cossus that was very involved in the conflicts that we were talking about in the 430s and the 420s.
Dr G 9:00 But presumably related to him.
Dr Rad 9:02 Presumably.
Dr G 9:04 And we also have Lucius Furius Medullinus.
Dr Rad 9:11 Furii!
Dr G 9:14 Now this is a guy that you want to remember. Okay. He is going to go on to have a very illustrious career.
Dr Rad 9:23 You didn’t even need to tell me that Dr. G. Oh, you need to say it’s a word Furii and I know it’s going to be on fire.
Dr G 9:29 That family they can do no wrong. I also have listed an interrex for this year.
Dr Rad 9:36 Yes.
Dr G 9:37 A certain Quintus Fabius Vibulanus who you may recall or not, because all Roman names start to sound the same, was previously consul in 423 and was also a military tribune with consular power in 416 and no less than the very previous year 414.
Dr Rad 9:58 Well, that all makes sense, doesn’t it? So they want some continuity there.
Dr G 10:02 Old mate knows how an election goes.
Dr Rad 10:04 Yeah, well, basically, in my account he comes in because they have an interregnum because there’s this standoff about are they going to have military tribunes or are they going to have consuls. Obviously the plebeians are pushing to have military tribunes, the Senate like, “Absolutely no way, no how is that going to happen. Because we know that you’re going to elect a plebeian and and that’s disgusting. How dare you even thinking it!” And so they hold out. There’s like this extended interregnum period apparently, until eventually they get their consular elections and consuls, which means that only patricians can hold supreme office in this year. So that guy that guy becomes interrex because as we know, interrex means that it is period where you don’t have the official magistrates being elected, you’ve got a sharing of power happening. It’s a weird hangover from the regal period that we continue to call interrex even though there is no king the king is dead. And this guy was the one that organized the consular elections whilst he was holding the temporary power of interrex.
Dr G 11:11 Yeah, and I’m sure he does an excellent job. I don’t have any real lengthy animalistic sauce to rely on this year. I have a little bits and pieces. So for instance, I’ve got Diodorus Siculus, who lets us know that we’ve got Marcus Cornelius and Lucius Furius as our consuls, and also gives us the heads up that this is a tricky time for the Athenian war in Sicily. So just you know, to put broader Italy in its Mediterranean context, Diodorus Siculus gives us that little tidbit. He goes into heaps of detail about that war, but I stopped reading him.
Dr Rad 11:56 We don’t need to know about the Peloponnesian stuff.
Dr G 11:59 This is not a history of Greece from the founding of the Greek-ness.
Dr Rad 12:03 Absolutely not.
Dr G 12:05 That’ll be another podcast.
Dr Rad 12:06 Perish the thought.
Dr G 12:08 Await our spin off series.
Dr Rad 12:11 When we’re done talking about the history of Rome, because we’re going to be done so soon, obviously.
Dr G 12:15 That’s right. We’re preparing ahead for our next series. I’ve also ended up reading a little bit of a writer called Florus.
Dr Rad 12:24 Oh, a much later source than Diodorus, I believe.
Dr G 12:31 Indeed. Let me introduce you, to Publius Annius Florus. He is a man of African extraction, goes to Rome in the late first century CE and is flourishing and writing a lot in the early second century CE, so think Trajan think Hadrian, that kind of time period.
Dr Rad 12:58 Okay, so, so high empire stuff. Yeah.
Dr G 13:01 Yeah. And he seems to have been pretty good friends with Hadrian at certain points in his life. And one of the things that he is famously known for is his epitome of Livy.
Dr Rad 13:13 Which is handy because unfortunately, and I know it seems impossible, dear listeners, but it will happen one day, we do not have all of Livy either. Eventually, Livy also will peter out.
Dr G 13:25 I’m excited for when the tables turn, and maybe I have some sources. And maybe you’re like, I don’t have anything. I’m like, Ah, ha!
Dr Rad 13:34 It’ll take a long time.
Dr G 13:37 You’ve got years left in Livy. So Florus is famous for this sort of epitome of Livy. So we’re not getting necessarily anything new in terms of the history. And so if you have Livy, I’m probably not going to be adding much to what you can say.
Dr Rad 13:55 You never know. I mean, Look, this is the thing like Sure, sure. He’s doing the Wikipedia version of Livy
Dr G 14:04 Ouch.
Dr Rad 14:04 But does it mean that he’s maybe not adding his own spin to things you never know?
Dr G 14:11 It’s possible. Yeah. Likely? I don’t know.
Dr Rad 14:14 All right. Well, let me tell you what’s happening early on in this consulship here. So as we suspected, the first order of business is the murder of Postumius. Okay, they can’t just leave that to go unavenged. Even if, even if it’s a remote land, they thought that this was okay, which they do not. As we know, murder is taken very seriously. Again, in most societies, it’s a pretty big thing. And so you can’t just ignore it, particularly when it’s so public and violent. So they start an investigation into the death of Postumius. However, there is I think, genuine concern about how this investigation is going to be handled. Okay. So then the Senate aren’t like racing in all guns blazing. They’re not like forming together. They’re in posse. I mean, I was kind of thinking is this whether young patricians come back in finally speeding out of the horizon in their Ferraris to cause mayhem and havoc, to seek revenge? But no,
Dr G 15:20 I could see them doing it. But I can also understand or appreciate that the Senate might be a bit concerned for their own lives as well, they’ll have to tread quite carefully in some respects, because if the anger of the soldiers continues, and does not dissipate, during the natural course of things, that could be a problem for them.
Dr Rad 15:39 Yeah, so this is an interesting case. So we have talked a little bit about investigations into murder, because obviously, it does happen. Obviously, in every society, we have mentioned it, but this is the first time that we’ve apparently seen like a special commission into somebody’s murder. Okay. And there are going to be a few of these that pop up throughout Rome’s history where there is like, something that happens, it’s so extraordinary, that it requires this special kind of investigation, and we’re not really sure where they came from, like, is this actually the first or just the first recorded? No, no, yeah, we’re not really sure. But it’s basically that the commission is given by a legislative act by the people, okay, to the consul, or the chief magistrate. And they’re able to use their full powers of imperium, which means full powers of life and death during the investigation. Now, we obviously were just speaking about imperium. It is obviously where, you know, the true power of a magistrate resides, but obviously, they’re not going to get very far if they’re constantly making people genuinely afraid that they’re going to exercise powers of life and death. So usually, it’s life. Usually, they’re not walking around murdering people not murdering sorry, they’re not well,
Dr G 17:00 I mean, it’s not the hallmark of a great detective investigation is it, to kill all of the witnesses or all of the suspects before you’ve really had a chance to question them?
Dr Rad 17:09 Yes, exactly. Yeah. So it seems to be basically giving them total scope, you know, to do what they need to do in order to investigate what’s happened. Apparently, the next time that we’ll really see this exact kind of condition, or like the way that this one is kind of set up, it won’t be until much much later in the Republic. So in a more in a better documented time, we’re talking about apparently, there’s going to be a case coming up in 141 BCE. So put that in your diaries, listeners.
Dr G 17:40 That is a long way from where we are now put a cloud of suspicion over this being the first.
Dr Rad 17:47 Well, I mean, I think this is the thing, there are a lot of questions about what this exactly is exactly how it is set up. And there are a couple of ways that it can that’s that’s just one way, I think that you can set up these sorts of special conditions. And eventually, once you have these particular kinds of quaestors, the quaestiones perpetuae? I can’t do Latin, it just comes out as Italian.
Dr G 18:19 This is not the parricidium?
Dr Rad 18:21 No, no.
Dr G 18:22 Ahhh interesting.
Dr Rad 18:23 Once you have these particular types of crisis, they would then set up the commissions on a need-by-need basis, not using imperium as the basis of their actions. So it’s basically I think that a law that sort of set them up had given them the power to enact these special conditions. And again, we’ll see examples of this cropping up in about 110 BCE and 90 BCE. But it’s fairly clear from the details of this event, that that’s not what we’re dealing with here. Yeah, yeah, we’re definitely dealing with the first type because there isn’t another example for another couple of 100 years. Obviously, there are huge red flags around this, whether we should actually be believing that this is something that actually happened is tricky. And certainly, what has been suggested by one of the academics I’ve been reading is that again, this is one of those examples of something from later in the republic that is being sort of retrojected back. And interestingly, might be because there were concerns being raised by the time you get to sort of mid and later Republic that the Senate were potentially kind of abusing these commissions – their ability to set up these commissions and use them for political purposes. So this is actually the same kind of commission that we see set up in 186 BC with a Bacchanalian Scandal when they investigate that and it will also be used in the Gracchan era.
Dr G 19:54 So alright. There is a big cloud of suspicion now.
Dr Rad 19:59 Yeah, It definitely is. There’s a big cloud of suspicion. But certainly, again, if even though we might not be able to say, okay, yes, this is exactly what happened to investigate the murder of Postumius. It does tell us something about obviously, again, what is concerning later on in terms of maybe abuses of power or the exercise of power, certainly in the middle to later Republic and the way that these sorts of special conditions might be become to be used, I suppose.
Dr G 20:27 Hmm. Yeah, that’s all very interesting.
Dr Rad 20:31 Anyway, but in this particular example, if it did happen, and I’m sure there was an investigation, as I say, they’re not going to defer.
Dr G 20:37 There would have had to have been some kind of an investigation, it’s just a matter of what it really looked like.
Dr Rad 20:41 Yes. So wisely, the special investigation, oh, my God, oh, my god, I just realized it’s an SVU special investigation unit. So in our Special Investigation Unit: Ancient Rome, they don’t get too vindictive they only select out, you know, like, sort of the minimum amount of people, like the ringleaders, I would presume, who were most involved in, I guess, leading the charge against Postumius, when he was murdered in a mob scenario. And even the ones that are chosen for punishment, it seems that most of them are allowed to commit suicide, rather than the State being the ones to enact that punishment, which, by Roman standards-
Dr G 21:30 That’s actually very generous by Roman standards.
Dr Rad 21:32 It really is, because this is the whole thing. Obviously, suicide can be a very troubling issue. It is a very troubling issue. But by Roman standards, they have a slightly different way of looking at it to the way that we do it is a way that you can restore some honour. And also potentially, I mean, we don’t really know what the deal is with property laws, obviously, in this time, but it is potentially a way of also protecting property and that sort of thing, depending on what kind of crimes you’re being charged with. So yeah, it is. Yeah, it is very generous for them to allow this to happen, even though it sounds awful, obviously.
Dr G 22:08 Yes, very intriguing. Yeah, I’m not really quite sure what to make of any of this. I don’t have any questions so far. Just curiosity, does Livy offer more detail in this?
Dr Rad 22:20 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. So obviously, you’d think, okay, moderate investigation, not an abuse of power, fairly generous penalties, even though obviously, it’s still death, but at the same time, limited in scope and method, I suppose. And yet, Dr. G. It just goes to show you give as you give as you give and still, the plebeians are unhappy with the situation and room still, they did to have questions about their lives still. They gave the patricians problems. How is this possible that did you just goes to show that the patricians are in the right at all times?
Dr G 23:04 Oh, yeah, they’ve been super generous. You know, they’ve been insulting the plebeians for centuries at this point.
Dr Rad 23:11 So whilst the consuls have been busy playing Agatha Christie with their Special Victims Unit, there will be things pointed out, you know what, it’s interesting that you’ve dealt with this murder so quickly, because I can’t help but notice that it’s been Oh, I don’t know, a century since we asked you for meaningful change in this place. And yet nothing? Nothing.
Dr G 23:38 Anybody, agrarian reform?
Dr Rad 23:40 Exactly.
Dr G 23:41 Anyone? Anyone?
Dr Rad 23:42 He’s amazing that the patricians can act so quickly when it is in their interests. They have questions, oh, they have questions.
Dr G 23:51 That is a very fair criticism.
Dr Rad 23:55 Now Livy, he actually says this might have been the moment to appease the audience, calm the situation, by dividing up the territory that had been conquered at bullae. And just, you know, trying to put the matter to rest before anyone else gets murdered. But-
Dr G 24:15 There’s always a but isn’t there?
Dr Rad 24:17 The patricians don’t roll that way, as we know, they were not clever enough to make this move at this point in time, which means a little bit is still hungry for an agrarian law. Yeah, specifically, they’re obviously keen at the moment at this point in our narrative for an agrarian law. That would, and I quote, expel the patricians from their wrongful occupation of the public domain.
Dr G 24:46 Yeah, Look, this is the same claim they have been making for the last 50 odd years. They want the Ager Publicus “the common land” to be redistributed out because it’s currently being squatted on by patricians.
Dr Rad 25:03 Yeah. And as we’ve highlighted a number of times, they seems highly anachronistic and unlikely because we’re probably living in a time of warlords where everyone’s just kind of squatting on land because that’s what warlords do. There probably isn’t really public land. It’s probably just land that’s occupied by clans and their dependents and they hold it like that’s probably what’s going on here. So this is all very Grachhan-late Republic again, that’s trending hashtag trending. So instead the plebeians are left soaking feeling very much like they were being had done by the patricians were unfairly occupying public lands and holding them off at using force. The patricians would not even consider giving any of the most recently captured territory to the plebeians, I mean, ugh
Dr G 25:58 Concede nothing!
Dr Rad 26:00 It’s just like, it’s always been the rich get richer, and they’re left with nothing.
Dr G 26:07 Hmm, yeah. I have some thoughts about that. But I will keep them to myself.
Dr Rad 26:13 Well, it’s around this time, it’s around this time that we have some military action happening externally. So the Volscians start attacking the borderlands of the Hernicians.
Dr G 26:24 Oh, very interesting. Okay, before we get too far into that, okay, let me give you what Florus gives us because Florus doesn’t get into what might be happening on the military front.
Dr Rad 26:35 Okay.
Dr G 26:36 So this might round out the plebeian-patrician agrarian issue. So Florus tells us that this period in Rome’s history is considered a second age of the Roman people.
Dr Rad 26:52 Oh, I told you, you he’s have his own little flourishes. Flourishing Florus.
Dr G 26:58 Yeah, it’s beautiful. This time period is thought to be the one where Rome is at its most vigorous. And, and in the heat of its strength. So something about the virility of the people is really, what Florus is sort of touching on here. And he sees this action against Postumius as being part of a broader set of actions that the plebeians are taking against the patricians. In this roundabout sort of 50-100 year period, everything in this really early republic that we’ve dealt with kind of gets a mention in this passage. Okay. So he says that the army mutinied in the camp and stone to the general Postumius. Right, when he denied them the spoils which he had promised.
Dr Rad 27:48 Check, check, check.
Dr G 27:50 That also another action that falls under this kind of mode of strengthen virility from the plebeians is under Appius Claudius, when they refuse to defeat the enemy when it was in their power to do so. And I feel like I remember vaguely when that was, but I can’t remember exactly when that was.
Dr Rad 28:14 Research, what makes the podcast great.
Dr G 28:18 Believe me, I did try to track it down by going back through our episodes, it eluded me and I was like, my happiest Claudius. I mean, he was he was terrible for a long time.
Dr Rad 28:27 Yeah, well, I mean, there’s a year that goes on forever if we’re talking about the Appius Claudius whose the second decemvir.
Dr G 28:34 Yeah exactly, which I assume this is where we are. And he talks about when under the leadership of Volero many refuse to serve and the consul’s fasces were broken. So that is a reference back to really early events in 472.
Dr Rad 28:51 I was gonna say I do remember that that Volero is a name from Yeah, like 10 years ago, in terms of in terms of our podcasting, not the Roman history.
Dr G 29:02 So Volero Publius, as tribune of the plebs riles up everybody, and then they break some fasces, which is pretty good. Yeah. He then talks about Coriolanus another big figure,
Dr Rad 29:16 But again, going back to what the 480s?
Dr G 29:18 The 490s even.
Dr Rad 29:20 Oh, my god, yeah.
Dr G 29:23 When he orders the troops to to their fields, things like this. And then he mentions a figure that is a little bit foreshadowing for us, because we haven’t gotten to this guy yet. But we’re going to keep your ears peeled, listeners – not literally because that would be gross – for Camillus.
Dr Rad 29:48 Oh, yes, yes. Yes. He’s going to be another big guy.
Dr G 29:52 Yeah, he’s coming up really soon. So we’re anticipating his eventual presence but obviously there’s an attack spent there between what happens in Camilla’s career and what is happening with the plebeian struggle. So Florus bundles, all of these kinds of moments together as letting us know that there’s the plebeian struggle has been ongoing and continuing and this murder of Postumius is one of these landmark events of civil disobedience, essentially, against the ruling class.
Dr Rad 30:28 Oh, Look, it’s a huge deal. I mean, Look, I shouldn’t actually, you know, I shouldn’t have said what I said earlier about the comment being the thing, obviously, I think it’s more his actions that have rolled them up to this state, you know, their broken promises about bougie, whatever they were, and then I think the general harshness of his demeanor. I think that’s, that’s definitely obviously the thing. But the comment, I think he just embodied his attitude, which is very typical, I think of a lot of patricians of this time, where even though they’re doing the hard yards and winning the land, it’s him and his mates that are allegedly benefiting from these sorts of conquests. Yeah, yeah. And the people, they’ve had enough and they’re not gonna take it anymore.
Dr G 31:14 I fought for this land to I want a slice.
Dr Rad 31:19 All right, cool. So is that Florus’ contribution to Postumius?
Dr G 31:24 That is what Florus has to tell us. I could tell you that I also went to Zonaras.
Dr Rad 31:30 Oh, wow. Okay. Getting late with your sources.
Dr G 31:35 Zonaras is a 12th century CE source.
Dr Rad 31:39 So actually closer to us than it is to Postumius – it’s not but almost.
Dr G 31:45 Almost Yeah. So Zonaras is living under the Byzantines empire and writing from the glory and glamour of of the Roman east.
Dr Rad 31:54 Wait, wait, wait. Sorry, listeners, listeners. Do you hear that? That’s Dr G. clutching at straws?
Dr G 32:01 Dammit, you know what,
Dr Rad 32:02 I love your research. I love your research. I’m just joking
Dr G 32:06 The thing about Zonaras is that nobody has gone about the epic work that it would take to translate all of the Zonaras from the Greek into the English, because he does an incredible job of condensing all of the histories into a single work. And people are like, I could translate that. But sometimes we’ve got the real source that he used. And so then they’re like, “Nah, forget Zonaras. He can sit there. He does exist. There’s books and books of Zonaras in Greek.
Dr Rad 32:38 I was gonna say, Yeah, I was gonna I remember looking at Zonaras at one point being like, holy crap, it’s not translated what the hell?.
Dr G 32:45 Some parts of it are definitely, but not the section I was hoping to read.
Dr Rad 32:49 No, not the section I was looking for I that I was like, how very dare you making me do my own translations? Outrageous.
Dr G 32:55 I checked it. It’s about three pages worth of ancient Greek. I’m sorry, I didn’t translate it. And that’s all I have. That is literally all the sources that I consulted or attempted to consult before I got sad.
Dr Rad 33:11 Okay, well, then, let’s wrap up the whole conflict of the oddest thing for the moment, put a pin in that. So it’s around this time that the Volscians start attacking the borderlands of the Hernicians. People we talk about a lot the consul, one of the consuls, Furius, and therefore the best consul, decided that he was gonna obviously take some Roman legions out to deal with them, because the Romans generally do come to the aid of the donations, you know, they got a bit of a thing going on there. However, when they got there, they could not find the Volscians causing them problem. I love it when these sorts of campaigns happen where they go out with an army and they they’re like, “where is everybody?”
Dr G 33:50 They get there, “Well, it took us a while to get here, but it looks like this is done and dusted. And everyone’s gone home.”
Dr Rad 33:56 Exactly. So they decided, well, we’ve got all dressed up and we’ve got nowhere to go. Let’s just capture Ferentinum, because there are a large number of Volscians residing there. So it’s as good as anywhere and those Volscians They are our problem right now.
Dr G 34:14 We’ll teach them a lesson.
Dr Rad 34:15 Yeah, the Volscians must have been anticipating that this was a possibility, I guess. Because when the Romans capture Ferentinum, and they find that there’s not a lot of booty there, because the Volscians had already moved anything of real value out of the town. They did. I guess they thought that if the Romans came into this area, that this wasn’t a place that they could hold. And so they were very organized strategy, they got everything out. And so the Romans are like, check please. Is the bus to run in because when I hanging around this, so I would sum this campaign up, as being the Romans came. They saw that Occasionally so wanted about and then they gave the town and its territory to the Hernicians because they were like, not worth it.
Dr G 35:08 There’s no booty, we’re a bit bored.
Dr Rad 35:11 Yeah now Ferentinum will later apparently become a municipium of note. But this is the first time that we actually haven’t mentioned in our vision material. Apparently, the site is modern Ferentino to the east of Rome, a bit further afield than we have talked about before, perhaps. And realistically, although the Romans may have given it to the Hernicians because they were kind of like, it doesn’t seem worth the hassle. It’s probably also because at this point in time, obviously Rome doesn’t want to overstretch themselves too much, you know, and, yeah, they’ve been having some internal problems, as we’ve well and truly documented. Now, this, this kind of had me thinking a little bit about this whole scenario here. We obviously in this past 100 years, we have talked a lot about various colonies being set up at this time, this is kind of how Rome expands, right? We see gradual little colonies, you know, being set up all over the place, sometimes they lose them again. But that’s kind of their their strategy. Ferentinum itself, it is obviously in this Hernician area in Hernician territory, and therefore, it was actually part of the Hernician Federation, not the Latin League. Now the Latin League is something we haven’t mentioned in a while this is a kind of loose confederation exists at this point in time. I think it’s basically that people have people who have a shared, I suppose, like linguistic and cultural and religious background, have obviously agreed to extend rights to each other across various territories that you know, that share these things. So, for example, you can move to another place, and it’s not going to be a massive hassle. Trade is easier between these places, marriage is easier between these places. This is something that was set up a really long time ago. Again, we keep going back to those 490 strategy. This is when the Latin League was formed. Yes.
Dr G 37:17 Yeah. And Rome is part of that league.
Dr Rad 37:20 Yeah.
Dr G 37:21 And is going to become increasingly separate from it over time.
Dr Rad 37:25 Yeah, exactly. They have they have this alliance with the various members of the Latin League, and it’s going to be something that lasts into the next century that we’re talking about. And it is probably what helps to safeguard this area of Latium against these very mysterious, shadowy people. We keep talking about the Aequians and the Volscians, who lie outside of this sort of territory. And we know, bugger all about quite frankly.
Dr G 37:49 Well, yeah, they lie outside of the territory. But we also think they’re different linguistic groups as well. So that’s, that’s part of that issue as well. It’s not just their location geographically, it’s also a sense that they’re culturally different as well.
Dr Rad 38:03 Yes, absolutely. Now, it is also worth mentioning that lately, uncharacteristic, because for a while, there was just nothing, it was a bit of a drought, in terms of Romans making progress in terms of expanding their empire, you may have noticed, we’ve been talking about some things been captured lately, you know, it’s been a bit of a feature, even though it’s caused massive internal issues sometimes. And therefore, some people have suggested that we’re actually entering into like a new policy era for ancient Rome, that they are indeed embarking upon a period of more aggressive expansion at this point in time, and this is not going to be the last time in the next few episodes, I think that we’re gonna be talking about some areas being captured by the Romans. So yeah, just something to keep an eye on that potentially. This is an era of evolution. And even though I’d say even though it’s not always you know, it’s just not always progress. Sometimes it’s, you know, two steps forward, one step back.
Dr G 39:05 But they’re trying out some different locations, seeing if they can hold them. And sometimes they can, sometimes they can’t, and it’s obviously also producing a lot of tension between imperial command like so the deployment of imperium, and how it’s being utilized, and the people who actually have to enact the violence of taking your place. So it seems like there is maybe a tension that’s not just about agrarian reform, but maybe a tension about, well, what does expansion look like? And what does it even mean, and why are we engaging in it?
Dr Rad 39:45 Yeah, and definitely, the we’re also going to be heading into an era where I think we’re going to see some slight changes to the way that the Romans manage their military forces, the way that they fund it, that kind of thing. So it’s in Interesting that we might be entering into a new military phase for him, even though obviously, because of the time period and a source material that we have, we can’t be 100% sure of the details. But if we’re looking at that broader picture of truth, because that’s all we can really aim for, I think at this point in time, certainly whatever’s happening, it does seem to be that room is more outward looking again, you know, after being very fixated on internal problems, or whatever was happening in that previous period, maybe we’re starting to see an end to that really horrible period where it seems like actually, in a broader sense, things were hard in, you know, in this time period, maybe things are starting to get a bit easier. It’s a bit hard to say, but certainly potentially a bit of a new phase that we’re entering here. And as I say, this is kind of we’re kind of just at the beginning of it really. We’re going to see definitely I think more coming out about this, definitely.
Dr G 41:01 Oooo, watch this military space.
Dr Rad 41:02 Indeed. And that brings me to the end of 413 BCE Dr. G
Dr G 41:07 Ooo, oh boy.
Dr Rad 41:40 It’s 412 BCE Dr. G! Who are our magistrates in this new year?
Dr G 41:46 Oh, it’s a very exciting year 412. We’ve got consuls. We have Quintus Fabius Ambustus Vibulanus And Gaius Furius Pacilus.
Dr Rad 42:05 Interesting, because these are obviously familiar gens. We’ve heard these family names before but the men themselves a bit mysterious perhaps.
Dr G 42:15 They are. Neither of these two crop up again in any consular lists. And that makes them feel slightly like they might be trying to make up the numbers for a calendar that might be out of whack.
Dr Rad 42:33 Well, nonetheless, that sounds right to me putting a Fabian and a Furii in place.
Dr G 42:38 So we’ve got some classic patricians in power. You also know the name of the tribune of the plebs.
Dr Rad 42:45 Yes, we do.
Dr G 42:46 Lucis Icilius.
Dr Rad 42:49 Oh, yeah, that’s a blast from the past, not the actual guy. But the name.
Dr G 42:54 Yes, yes. And so in lieu of my ancient source material, which is very thin on the ground for this year. What I do have to offer you is a back catalogue of who the Icilii are as a gens.
Dr Rad 43:11 Aww, aren’t you nice, because I actually looked into that too, because I remember it from the whole beginning anything.
Dr G 43:18 Yes, yes. There’s some famous stories in this family.
Dr Rad 43:21 Yeah. So. All right, well, I’ll set the scene a little bit. So previous year, even though obviously, there’s a lot of sulking going on. And even though we do have the success, obviously, with the capture of some of some territory kind of way, even though it’s handed to other people. It’s relatively peaceful year by ancient Roman standards, Livy reckons. So we’ve got a new consuls coming in, presumably, still a bit of, you know, nervousness in the air about, you know, players potentially getting elected to power with all this unhappiness going on. And they are right to be concerned because we have a young firebrand Lucius Icilius, tribune of the plebs, and he starts to cause issues immediately daring to bring up the question of old agrarian laws. How dare he! Now, as we’ve highlighted so many times, it’s not a big surprise that we’re seeing a man with this name bringing up these issues, because as we know, the Romans do think that but you know, that characteristics run in families. And this is I think, a good time for you did tell us about the Icilii and their lengthy history of plebeian reform.
Dr G 44:37 Yeah, these guys are like our most famous plebeian gens probably from the last century. So it’s kind of exciting that we’ve got this legacy to sort of look at, there’s probably a good reason that we have this. And we start with right back in the early days of 492 BCE. Spurius Icilius. He was a tribune of the plebs. And not just any tribune of the plebs. He was one of the envoys following the withdrawal – so the First Succession of the plebeians – to the Mons Sacer “the sacred mount”.
Dr Rad 45:14 That is elite. That is elite Yeah, solid, solid.
Dr G 45:19 Solid plebeian credentials.
Dr Rad 45:23 Going back to the origin of the fight, that’s their Stonewall, man.
Dr G 45:27 That’s where it all began. Yeah. He’s also thought to have introduced a law through about disruption of plebeian assemblies. So making it illegal to disrupt gatherings of plebeians for formal discussion and process.
Dr Rad 45:42 Fair call.
Dr G 45:43 So the patricians were usually just rocking up and causing trouble. And he’s like, “No, that is illegal.” And then we have our most famous Icilius.
Dr Rad 45:55 The Verginia?
Dr G 45:57 The very same.
Dr Rad 45:58 I thought it might be..
Dr G 46:00 So he holds the tribune of the plebs position three times, once in 456, 455, and 449. So it’s kind of like a rivalry of the plebeians to the whole decemvirate that has sort of risen up and taken control. So he’s the one who is credited with carrying what we think – we’re not sure about the historicity of this law, necessarily – the law that’s known as the Lex (Icilia) de Aventino Publicando.
Dr Rad 46:33 Ah, yes, I remember this.
Dr G 46:34 The law that allocates the Aventine hill to the plebeians.
Dr Rad 46:38 Yes, yes. Aventine, Aventine.
Dr G 46:43 It’s the place to be! If you’re a plebeian. He’s also caught up in the whole situation with the decemvirs because he is engaged to Verginia. And this is the young woman who falls victim to the machinations and predatory behavior of Appius Claudius.
Dr Rad 47:06 Yes, I remember that very well.
Dr G 47:08 And this really riles Icilius up. And he becomes a spokesman for the second succession. So the trouble I think, for us as historians, is that every time we have an Icilius in the narrative history, so far, they’ve always been in charge of a succession of the plebs.
Dr Rad 47:32 Hmmm, I see where you’re going.
Dr G 47:35 And so as soon as you start to read into the start of 412 BCE, which is where we’re at, the reader is primed through the sort of annalistic history that sources like Livy and Dionysius have been providing to expect something big to happen coming from an Icilius…
Dr Rad 47:58 Something big is about to happen. Are you ready to hear how he goes with this agrarian reform, Dr. G? Are you ready?
Dr G 48:07 I am.
Dr Rad 48:07 Okay. Here we go. So he raises the issue. He causes lots of problems. And then a pestilence strikes, and nobody cares.
Dr G 48:18 Nooooooo.
Dr Rad 48:22 Yeah, so basically anticlimactic. Well, okay. I’m going to say this. That’s pretty much all we have for 412. Okay, that pestilence broke out and everybody lost interest in anything other than staying alive. Ah ah ah ah staying alive, staying alive. So people are obviously way too distracted to be worrying about politics. So Icilius is just dead in the water. But I will say this, you’re not going to see the end of this family. This is not the last time it is nevertheless time 412 may be ending in a bit of a sad, sick bundle. But the Icilii will return.
Dr G 49:05 So well. That’s good to know.
Dr Rad 49:06 Yeah. So that being said, Dr. G, that brings us to the end of 412.
Dr G 49:11 Oh, well, let me just give you some small contextualizing details before we move on. Nothing to do with Roman history, I might add. So Diodorus Siculus is giving us the names of the consuls, correctly, it would seem and he also-
Dr Rad 49:31 Wait are we doing 411?
Dr G 49:32 No.
Dr Rad 49:33 Oh, okay. Sorry. Okay, sorry. Sorry, I was confused.
Dr G 49:36 No, we’re still in 412. Before we wrap up 412, he also mentioned that in this year, the Carthaginians are launching a war also against Sicily. So the previous year we had the Athenians – Sicily is caught in the middle of some things right now – the Carthaginians at this point in time are being led by a general called Hannibal.
Dr Rad 50:04 Not the famous one.
Dr G 50:06 Not THE Hannibal, but a Hannibal. Yeah. Because the Carthaginians often call their people Hannibal.
Dr Rad 50:14 Indeed, again, another popular name.
Dr G 50:17 It’s a very popular name for the Carthaginians. So Sicily is in a really sort of difficult situation in this period. So South of Italy, just off the mainland. It’s a broiling hotbed of military action. It’s happening outside of the Romans domain, they might know about it through trade and various other disruptions. They’re not involved in it. But it is an active military situation that is happening to the south. And that’s all I got.
Dr Rad 50:50 Okay, nice. Well, that actually is going to play into I think, a future narrative. So knowing a bit about the contextual stuff will be very useful for our future episodes, but I won’t say any more. I won’t say any more.
Dr G 51:04 I like to think so. Just give me a little bit of a teaser here and then
Dr Rad 51:10 Carthaginians on the prowl. Oh, all right. Well, Dr G., that’s 413 and 412 done, which means it’s time for the Partial Pick. So Dr G., what is the Partial Pick all about?
Dr G 51:29 The Partial Pick is where we rate Rome according to its own standards. Now this is unfortunate for Rome, because Rome is still a baby right now. And its own standards are pretty high for it. But there is essentially five categories that we’re going to measure Rome’s progress and success by and we’re gonna give them 10 Gold Eagles maximum in each of those categories. So it is possible if Rome is at its flourishing best to receive 50 Golden Eagles.
Dr Rad 51:59 Alright, what’s our first category?
Dr G 52:02 Military clout!
Dr Rad 52:03 Well, okay, we have something to work with. Here. We have got the capture of Ferentinum
Dr G 52:09 They did just give it away though.
Dr Rad 52:10 Well, yes. But it was theirs to give.
Dr G 52:14 I see. So, conquest without retention. I mean, it doesn’t sound like the Roman way.
Dr Rad 52:20 We;; I mean, nobody says that the Hernicians lost it back. It’s still kept. It’s just kept by like a friend. Like, can you hold my purse while I go to the bathroom?
Dr G 52:33 Aww so sweet. Yeah, Look, I mean, I’m, I’m not very convinced.
Dr Rad 52:39 Look they didn’t get a lot of booty or anything. So look, I think we should give them at least a three.
Dr G 52:44 Yeah, that’s fine.
Dr Rad 52:45 Okay, good.
Dr G 52:46 Acceptable.
Dr Rad 52:46 All right. Done.
Dr G 52:49 All right. Our second category is diplomacy.
Dr Rad 52:54 Hmm.
Dr G 52:55 Are they good at negotiating?
Dr Rad 52:56 Well, okay. Again, externally? No, because there’s warfare, although I suppose there are the relations between the Hernicians and the Romans. That’s
Dr G 53:06 so I suppose. Yeah, they did give the Hernicians so huge gift.
Dr Rad 53:10 Yeah, take a town.
Dr G 53:12 That’s nice.
Dr Rad 53:13 Take this ghost town.
Dr G 53:15 It’s got nothing in it. It’s yours!
Dr Rad 53:16 Yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s they basically like snatched it up, turned it upside down, shake it out. Well, the contents and being like, yeah, there’s nothing in there throwing the carton away and be like here, take that.
Dr G 53:27 This is almost sounding like the infamous moment where I gave my brother a five cent piece for Christmas.
Dr Rad 53:35 But if we are going by internal diplomacy, I think there is some effort at internal diplomacy in the sense that the investigation into Postumius’ death was sensitively handled.
Dr G 53:49 Yeah, very interesting. I’m not sure that I really quite buy that for this period of time, it seems very unlike the patricians.
Dr Rad 53:57 Okay again, once again, in ancient Rome, there are so many red flags, we may as well be in communist China. But still.
Dr G 54:06 Yeah, I suppose if we read it at the face value, and we don’t have heaps of options, because we don’t have a lot of alternative evidence.
Dr Rad 54:13 I mean, that we may not believe the investigation. We may not believe that Special Victim Unit existed back in this time. Maybe it was more of a Crime Scene Investigation. Who knows? Maybe there’s more.
Dr G 54:24 CSI: Ancient Rome
Dr Rad 54:25 Maybe it was more Hawaii 5-0. We will never know, Dr. G. But I think definitely we could potentially say that the death of Postumius was investigated sensitively.
Dr G 54:38 Hmm. All right. Well, in that case, I’m willing to give them a two.
Dr Rad 54:43 Okay. Generous as always. All right, what’s our next category?
Dr G 54:49 Our next category is Expansion.
Dr Rad 54:53 Well, yes, not a great one. Again, I probably only give them maybe like a two
Dr G 55:01 Is it expansion? If they take it, and then they give it away to a friend?
Dr Rad 55:05 I think so because the Hernicians are there.
Dr G 55:09 Mm hmm.
Dr Rad 55:11 Come on. What’s two points? Two little golden eagles?
Dr G 55:18 Fine. The fourth category is Virtus.
Dr Rad 55:24 Not really. It’s not like it’s not the most impressive of times, I will say.
Dr G 55:29 We’re not seeing great displays of manliness. No.
Dr Rad 55:31 Not at this point in time, no.
Dr G 55:33 And then, is it a good time to be a citizen in Rome?
Dr Rad 55:38 Well, I don’t think it’s the worst time.
Dr G 55:41 It’s not the worst time. Although, did we just have a pestilence because that’s not that’s not great.
Dr Rad 55:47 That’s not great for anybody. Patrician or plebeian, we are all united in our dislike of disease. That’s true. So we’ve got disease happening. We’ve got the plebeians being unhappy about the lack of progress on the agrarian law front, feeling slighted that the patricians are more interested in acting out
Dr G 56:06 Murder investigations?
Dr Rad 56:07 Yeah. Everybody likes true crime and the patricians are no exception. The patricians are more interested in murder investigations than in seeking meaningful societal change.
Dr G 56:17 There’s a surprise.
Dr Rad 56:19 Yeah so look. It’s not it’s not great. But at the same time, we do have someone from the Icilii in the tribune position.
Dr G 56:28 There is a little bit of potential there, and I suppose if we’re taking the investigation, having the opportunity to nobly die, as opposed to being severely physically punished to death…
Dr Rad 56:44 And in this narrative, they would have all been plebeians. It’s yeah, that’s just how it set up. So
Dr G 56:50 It’s not I mean, it’s not great, but
Dr Rad 56:53 Is it like a two?
Dr G 56:54 Yeah.
Dr Rad 56:56 Well, Dr G., that means that the Romans have managed to scrape together between the years of 413 and 412, nine golden eagles.
Dr G 57:06 Oh, boy, that’s not great.
Dr Rad 57:09 Look, it hasn’t been great for a while. Nine out of 50 not fantastic, but I definitely think we’ve got some very interesting times lying just around the corner.
Dr G 57:29 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoy our show, there’s a few ways to show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you’re keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi. Or why not join our fantastic patreons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book, “Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome” at partialhistorians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
A Wrongheaded Man
Sep 28, 2023
In this episode, we tackle the years 415 and 414 BCE and the downfall of Postumius, a very wronghead man.
Episode 142 – A Wrongheaded Man
Did you remember to RSVP for the war?
In 415 BCE, the Romans were gearing up for war with Veii and the Aequians… but neither of their dance partners turned up! It takes two to tango and in this case, neither the people of Veii or the Aequians felt ready to get down and boogie.
A Wrongheaded Man Indeed!
War against the city of Bolae kicked off in 414 BCE. One of the military tribunes with consular power, Postumius, was placed in command against this Aequian tribe. Whilst the Romans enjoyed success in battle, their internal problems overshadowed the victory.
How do you create chaos in Rome? Simply take a tribune of the plebs, add a dash of agrarian reform, then stir in an arrogant patrician. Livy described Postumius as a wrongheaded man, and a questionable comment certainly had serious repercussions. Will sticks and stones, or words, do the most damage?
Join us for another tale of disaster with one of the Postumii at the centre.
Need to catch up on the previous conflict with the Labici? You can find our previous episode here.
Things to Look Out For:
Dr G accidentally skipping over 415 BCE
Various attempts at agrarian reform
What is #trending amongst the elite
A snide aside with very dramatic consequences
Several important lessons from the Romans that could also be applied to parenting
Our Players 415 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
P. Cornelius A. f. P. n. Cossus (Pat)
C. Valerius L. f. Volusi n. Potitus Volusus (Pat) Cos. 410, Mil. Tr. c.p. 407, 404
N. (or M.?) Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus (Pat) Cos. 421, Mil. Tr. c.p. 407 *
Q. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 405
Tribune of the Plebs
L. Decius
Our Players 414 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Cn. Cornelius A. f. M. n. Cossus (Pat) Cos. 409
L. Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat) Cos. 393, 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 406, 403, 401, 398
Q. Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus (Pat) Cos. 423, Mil. Tr. c.p. 416
P. Postumius A. f. A. n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat)
Tribune of the Plebs
M. Sextius
Quaestors
P. Sextius (or Sestius)
Our Sources
Dr G reads Virgil, Aeneid, 6.771-776; Diodorus Siculus 13.34.1, 13.381, 13.42.6; Dio Cassius, Roman History, 6.23; and the Fasti Capitolini.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.49-50.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC and Orange Free Sounds.
Automated Transcript.
Courtesy of Otter AI.
Dr G 00:12
Welcome to the partial historians.
Dr Rad 00:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 00:30
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 00:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 01:00
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 01:10
And I am your other hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 01:13
Hello, Dr. Rad.
Dr Rad 01:16
It’s so nice to have you back from Italy. Well, for me,
Dr G 01:20
it is a pleasure to be back. I’ll admit I regretted it for a little while. But today is very sunny and warm and feels kind of Romanesque. So I’m back on board with being in Australia.
Dr Rad 01:33
It is getting very hot in here.
Dr G 01:36
Maybe too hot too soon. Yeah, it’s a worrying sign. But nonetheless, this is going to cool down a bit later this week. So I can return to my wintry state. Your natural habitat as it were.
Dr Rad 01:49
Exactly, yes.
Dr G 01:51
So we are tracing the history of Rome from the founding of the city. And if you are interested in supporting our work, we have a Patreon. We also do some merch. And we’ve also just released our book on The Roman kings. So there’s plenty of ways when you miss us between episodes, to feel like you have us close at heart,
Dr Rad 02:14
and D and you can pick up our book online in a digital version from Gumroad or from Amazon. Or you can pick it up in a physical form from Abbey’s bookstore in Sydney.
Dr G 02:29
Yeah, we are very lucky to have it stocked in our hometown. So we’re thrilled about that. And so in the grand tradition of where we’re up to in this narrative history, I think we should start with a bit of a recap of what might have been happening up till now.
Dr Rad 02:48
Yes, well, last episode, we were talking about the years 417 and 416. And they were a bit blurred together, as far as I could see. Couldn’t really separate them out. But what I could tell was that there was some classic conflict of the orders happening. Oh, boy,
Dr G 03:06
it’s the subject that just keeps on giving.
Dr Rad 03:08
It certainly does. And so last episode, we were dealing with the fact that some of the tribune of the plebs were trying to pass a law about land, which is an ongoing concern, obviously, for the plebeian class. And in order to foil them, the patricians came up with an evil plan.
Dr G 03:32
Classic times, I mean, the minute you ask for agrarian reform, I think you’re also at the same time asking for patrician evil plans. That’s kind of these two things go naturally together for the elite in Rome.
Dr Rad 03:44
They certainly do. And so we had one of the Appii Claudii people, the Appius Claudius’ is of the world coming along with a douchebag plan of turning Tribunes against each other, which of course, worked,
Dr G 04:00
Dammit.
Dr Rad 04:02
So that’s kind of what we were dealing with last episode Dr G.
Dr G 04:06
All right. Now, I suspect that you will have lots of things to tell me about the things that are coming up.
Dr Rad 04:14
That’s a relative term.
Dr G 04:16
All right. Okay. Well, that’s good to know, because I am still sort of swimming about sort of, without a real proper narrative source to hold on to so always cobbling together little bits and pieces from all sorts of source material and hoping that I have a hint of something that might have happened.
Dr Rad 04:35
I know I’m picturing you very much as being like, adrift in an ocean just like paddling about like doggy paddle style, grabbing at pieces of woods that are just like floating there, just like at the end of Titanic.
Dr G 04:48
I always hoped as a as a dog in the ocean that I’ll find a big stick. But no, sometimes I have more. Sometimes I have less.
Dr Rad 04:58
I’ll take you any which way, Dr G.
Dr G 05:02
Excellent. All right. Well, let’s jump in
Dr Rad 05:05
Let’s do it 415 BCE
Dr G 05:25
Don’t you mean 414 BCE?
Dr Rad 05:29
No I mean 415
Dr G 05:33
Let me scroll up. No wonder I don’t know what’s going on.
Dr Rad 05:38
I’m quite definite on that.
Dr G 05:41
Fair enough. It’s 415 BCE certainly
Dr Rad 05:47
It is Dr. G. And I’m gallantly allowing you to once again tell me about the magistrates.
Dr G 05:53
Thank you. I have so little to say otherwise. So I really appreciate this generosity. Absolutely. This is a year where we have military tribunes with consular power. And there’s a whole bunch of them.
Dr Rad 06:07
Yeah, there are, no there is, I mean, there was.
Dr G 06:09
They’re all patricians. So let’s get the big stuff out of the way. First. We have Publius Cornelius Cossus. We have one Gaius Valerius Volusi Potitus Volusus. I feel like that’s a bit repetitive, but sure. He’s got a lot of names. This will be the start of an illustrious career. So keep your eye on this guy. We have somebody who we’re not really sure about the praenomen. It’s either Numerius or Marcus as the praenomen Fabius Vibulanus, okay. And just to sort of cement the confusion around this guy, Broughton thinks that this might have also been the guy that was consul in 421. Now that guy had a praenomen, possibly of Gnaeus. So that leaves us with like three possible praenomens and so we really have no idea which dude this is. It’s one of the Fabii Vibulani.
Dr Rad 07:13
He’s a fabulous Fabian and that’s all we need to know
Dr G 07:15
he’s fabulous. And we continue onwards and hope for the best. Exactly. And we also have Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus. Now this sounds like a very familiar dude. But actually, we haven’t seen this guy before.
Dr Rad 07:29
No, but he must be from that family.
Dr G 07:32
Ooh, very illustrious, very esteemed. Well, all
Dr Rad 07:35
of these names are actually pretty illustrious, aren’t they? We’ve got the Cornelii, the Valerii the Fabii…
Dr G 07:42
Yeah, these are all families or patrician families that have been swimming around in positions of power before. So we we’ve definitely seen all of these families. Nobody here is like a fresh novus homo as it were into power.
Dr Rad 07:56
What did you call me???!
Dr G 08:00
Nothing, nothing. You’ve been here the whole time. I also have the name of a tribune of the plebs. Oh, yes. One Lucius Decius. Is he a 10 out of 10? You and I are making the same jokes now.
Dr Rad 08:18
Too in sync, Too in sync.
Dr G 08:21
That’s it. This podcast is over. Right?
Dr Rad 08:24
Is that making the same jokes, it’s time to move on.
Dr G 08:27
So I’ll have some things to say about Lucia gaseous. I think at some point, maybe the narrative should unfold a little bit before I go into that kind of bit of detail.
Dr Rad 08:38
Okay, fair enough.
Dr G 08:39
I handed over duly to you
Dr Rad 08:41
Why thank you. Let me tell you what Livy’s says about this year, I mean, this is going to excite you so be prepared. Rome would have been facing two wars in this year. Now you notice I said would have been
Dr G 08:57
Livy, What are you doing?
Dr Rad 09:00
and that’s because they both postponed Oh, I knew
Dr G 09:06
I couldn’t possibly make that time somebody somebody send for the army in three months. That’s when I’ll be next available.
Dr Rad 09:13
Exactly. I’ve made I’ve accidentally double booked myself. I can’t possibly go to war with Rome right now.
Dr G 09:18
I have a tea party. Don’t you understand?
Dr Rad 09:20
I’ve got to have my hair done. Takes a while.
Dr G 09:23
What do you mean they’ve been postponed Livy?
Dr Rad 09:26
Well get ready for the enthralling account of how these wars were postponed. I late I’m late for a very important date.
Dr G 09:34
I’m on the edge of my seat. Yes. Okay.
Dr Rad 09:37
So what are the first conflicts was with Veii. Who I actually feel like we haven’t mentioned they in a little while. They’ve been a bit quiet, haven’t they? Yeah, I mean, there was a bit of conflict going on there for a while, but here they are back back back again. Anyway, so the first conflict was meant to be with today. Now, allegedly, the leaders of Veii got spooked about going to war, because the Tiber had flooded, ruining some of their farms and farmhouses. And if you’re about to get out geographical on me, just wait, because I will come back to that. Wait a minute. All right, if you’re thinking that there is a problem now, I’m not geographically minded, so I probably would not have noticed this, but this is where geographers come in and save the day. But I’ll come back to that in a second. The other one was with the Aequians. Now, yeah, okay. They were put off after having been defeated when they had allied with a group called the Bolani. Now, the Bolani sound like a delicious sandwich meat.
Dr G 10:52
What are you having? I’m having the Bolani, what about you? Exactly,
Dr Rad 10:56
exactly. Yeah. Now, it seems that the Bolani were a tribe that lived within this wider Aequians group. So that’s why the other Aequians were helping them out. And Bolani had been one of the groups that had been attacking the territory of the Labici. And the new settlers at Labici. Hmm,
Dr G 11:20
yeah, I might have something to add to that. Okay. Well,
Dr Rad 11:23
I’ll finish my little story about them, and then you can add your thing. Bolani had been hoping that they were able to get away with attacking Labici By getting all the Aequians together to support them in this quest. But they didn’t get the backup that they were hoping for ended up losing their town and all their lands after a siege and a battle. And I quote my translator of Livy in a war, which does not even merit description. Wow. Okay. So I’m presuming that this means that this is a war that we haven’t heard about, but
Dr G 11:59
I’m willing to talk about this war, but I’m not willing to describe it. It happened. We’re moving on.
Dr Rad 12:04
Exactly. Put it behind us. All right.
Dr G 12:06
Look, I appreciate that. And I wish that happened more with military history. I mean, the details are always baffling. Somebody ran down a hill. Somebody else was hiding behind a tree. Yes. Outrageous.
Dr Rad 12:17
The cavalry was you know, secreted behind some bushes.
Dr G 12:21
That’s right. No, no, somebody jumped out of a cave, haha!
Dr Rad 12:25
took me by surprise.
Dr G 12:27
Goodness me. All right. So I think Bolani, the the Bolani people that you’re talking about are probably the inhabitants of Bola or Bolae.
Dr Rad 12:37
Yes, yes they are. Yeah. Yes, I can confirm that.
Dr G 12:40
Okay, so this is the ancient city in Latium. That is, we think we know the position of it. So I’m getting sort of geographical again southeast of Rome, right. But even further east than the Castelli Romani region, so those mountains, there’s not that many of them, they kind of stick out of the ground in an odd spot because they’re volcanic in nature. Okay. But once you get around those, and like, you know, the magma stops spinning out and stuff, then you go back into like, you know, plains and valleys, and boiler is supposed to be over in that direction. So it’s near the ancient city of Labicum. Okay, so the Labici and the Bolani would know each other probably quite well their neighbours,
Dr Rad 13:26
it makes sense why the people from Bolani you are trying to steal from the Labici then either way, I’m just gonna say for any other people who are watching drag race out there. I can’t say this now without thinking of the Australian drag queen, Gabriella Labucci. This must be where she’s from.
Dr G 13:44
There’s a nice synergy there. And the other little tidbit of detail that I have about Bolae as a place is that it is thought to have been founded by the king of Alba longa. This is a little detail that comes through in Virgil’s Aeneid.
Dr Rad 14:00
Nice. Okay. Yeah, this is I think another reason why it comes up. So not only does this situation with the Aequians mean that there is no war with the Aequians in this year. This is where our attribute of the plebs comes in. When Lucius Decius, as you said, he is trying to pass a law in which colonists would be sent to Bolae as well as Labici. But his fellow Tribune stop him from doing this and would not allow a plebiscite without the Senate saying it was okay with this idea. Insert sound effect
Dr G 14:41
Yeah, I mean, you’ve caught me speechless. So they want agrarian reform in the form of colonisation. So putting people out there giving them some land so they can do their stuff, giving them a new life offworld opportunities and all that kind of thing, but the Senate needs to approve it somehow.
Dr Rad 15:00
I know well, this is where we once again come back to the confusion of the early republic. A plebiscite is a measure that’s passed in the plebeian assembly. And it’s meant to be binding for all plebeians and eventually also, all Roman citizens. However, this is something we know comes about much later. We don’t really know if there was exactly such a thing at this moment. And certainly, we can’t be certain obviously, who would be applicable for, you know, would it have been the plebeians? Do the plebeians even exist? I mean, we come back to that question.
Dr G 15:38
Yes, and this is where we have that sort of the issues with our source material, as always, where we have a position known as the tribune of the plebs, but it’s not yet well established, what distinguishes them out necessarily, besides being not the elite? And to what extent are there formal processes in place for the tribune of the plebs to sort of bring this group of people together, or representatives thereof to make any kind of decision? We don’t know if the tribune of the plebs has that kind of power at this time?
Dr Rad 16:10
Yeah, exactly. So as it turns out, it’s a bit of a moot point because Bolae ends up being recaptured the following year, the Aequians set up a colony there to make it stronger, and obviously more resistant to the Romans, I suppose coming along and taking it back. Yay. And so that’s pretty much all I have officially for that year.
Dr G 16:33
Okay. May I jump in with some details about Lucius Decius, our tribune of the plebs. You know
Dr Rad 16:39
what? You may, but only after my geographical detail.
Dr G 16:44
Are we going back to Veii. For a quick minute,
Dr Rad 16:46
we’re going back to that question about the geography of this whole story. So that’s the official account that comes from Livy. Subsequent scholars have pointed out that it seems unlikely that the Tiber would have flooded in the area of they, the flooding usually happens closer to Rome. So if there was flooding, presumably, would have been Roman farms that were being flooded, which makes this story of not wanting to go to war because of a flood. A little confusing,
Dr G 17:23
huh, it’s not that it would be impossible, I’m sure. It would have to be quite a significant flood. I guess it just depends. I’m not good enough with water and my knowledge of flooding to be able to speculate further on that one.
Dr Rad 17:37
Well, this is where you might be able to help me out. Because apparently, whilst the geography doesn’t entirely make sense, at the same time, if we’re just talking about flooding in general, rivers are obviously very important to communities. I mean, to be honest, they’re still very important to this day, but we just for a lot of people, because we live more urban lives, we perhaps are less aware of our dependence on water, because it seems to just come effortlessly out of taps. And that’s obviously not really the reality of the world that we live in. But nonetheless, I’m not going to get distracted by it, environmentalism tangent. So rivers, obviously very important. People depend on them, obviously, as like a life giving source. And floods are definitely often seen as prodigies. So they have this added religious element. And therefore this might be the kind of thing that might have been recorded in the annals of that year, because it would have been something obviously, that people would have been observing and considered important. And so what Ogilvie who’s the commentary that I’m looking at for this has suggested is that maybe this there was a record of a flood in this time, and later historians have come along and somehow twisted it into a motive as to why there wasn’t a war in this year.
Dr G 18:58
I mean, that sort of presupposes that they had a narrative about there being a war before they knew about flood, which seems a bit odd as well. I’m like, Guys, I mean, you don’t have to have a war every year. It’s excellent of having domestic issues. But realistically, if we’re thinking geographically as well, ancient vai is now it’s, it was about eight kilometres from Rome, right? Shouldn’t Rome. Yeah. In modern terms, Veii is part of Rome. Yeah, that is passed on, you’re still you’re still very close to the city at that point. In terms of the river itself, these things would be very hard to judge now as well, because there’s been a lot of work done on the Tiber to prevent it from flooding. Yeah, because it is a river that goes through a city and it constantly flooding is an issue for people. So the Tiber is very much built up on all of its banks in order to prevent that from happening. Yeah, it would be, this is one of those moments where you want to go back in time, like, what did it Look like? topographically? Yeah, these are the things that that you want to be able to sort of come to grips with because it will give you a sense of the nature of the landscape and how it might have people interacted with it, and how nature might have taken its toll on the people around it with things like flooding for Yes,
Dr Rad 20:21
yes, I agree with what you said, because I felt the same thing. I’m like, Well, sure, they could twist it into a motive. But they’d have to have known that there was a possibility of a war because there is no war. So why would they even say that? Why would they just say,
Dr G 20:34
wouldn’t it just be easy to talk about a flood instead mean, like there was a terrible flood guys.
Dr Rad 20:39
We all love hearing stories about so floods, just ask the Christians,
Dr G 20:43
it might come from a desire to continue to bolster this idea of Rome being in a constant state of like military alertness and activity, which is all about them gaining the skill set that will enable them to eventually dominate the entire Italian Peninsula,
Dr Rad 20:59
I can’t get on board with the idea that there would have been a record of a significant flood because it would have been something in the natural world that might have been seen as some sort of, you know, some sort of sign. Oh, it’s just me can be a sign I saw the sign. And that I that’s all I have on that I do have a little bit of detail about Decius as well, but I’m gonna let you run with what you’ve got and see if mine is different.
Dr G 21:29
All right, so Lucius Decius, what a man. But more importantly, what a name. Am I right,
Dr Rad 21:37
that’s where I was going. Take it away, Dr G.
Dr G 21:41
So things get tricky with this guy. Because he’s involved in this idea of agrarian reform and trying to get things done and it not really working out, which for the reader of sources, like Livi is immediately I think, going to put them in mind of a much later Decius, who was also attribute of the plebs. And this is probably as Decius Subolo, who was doing his business in a roundabout 120 BCE, tribune of the plebs and a huge supporter of the Gracchi who are infamous for their interest in agrarian
Dr Rad 22:23
the people that love land the most, or land reform the most.
Dr G 22:29
Yeah, you say agrarian, I say Gracchi. But there are some other Decius characters that sort of crop up in the Republic of Rome’s history. I’m not sure that these are necessarily a launch point for anything to do with our particular Decius. But I’m just going to do a little bit of foreshadowing, because I think it will be fun. So we have a few Decius is coming up. And one of them is Publius Decius Mus from around about 325 BCE. Yeah, so give us another century of the podcast and we will get there. But he is most well known for sacrificing himself in battle. His son, Publius, Decius Mus. So the first son is also infamous, for winning a battle for Rome through self sacrifice,
Dr Rad 23:31
are noticing a trend. And then we also have
Dr G 23:34
the grandchild, Publius Decius Mus, who is also attributed to having won a battle through sacrificing himself.
Dr Rad 23:46
How on earth did this family survive?
Dr G 23:49
I don’t think that line did, at least not very well. But these DSCI seem to be outside of sort of like the there doesn’t seem to me to be a substantial connection between these guys and why you might mention a name like Decius for the tribune of the plebs. But we’ve got some interesting figures coming up in our history, but there does seem to be this weird sort of parallel with this Kraken Decius which I think is probably worth keeping in mind.
Dr Rad 24:17
Yeah, Look, I think you’re right about that. Because from my research, definitely there is suspicion about someone of this name popping up so early in Rome’s history. We have had a few mentions of this name before in Dionysius. But it seems like as you say, this is a name that becomes famous and important later on. And so in typical Roman historical tradition, they have rejected them back into early rooms pass because they want to, you know, play out their their significance and the continuity that’s there and all of that kind of stuff, but certainly It seems dubious that there would have been anyone from his family in Rome earlier than the full century BCE. So yeah, it just it just doesn’t seem to quite tally up. And apparently this is a family that hail from Southern Italy
Dr G 25:15
ah yes the Decii Mures, possibly thought to be from Campania originally so moving up for Rome for a brand new life and then maybe just sacrificing themselves all the time
Dr Rad 25:28
they just love it so much they love it so much.
Dr G 25:31
Let me fight for you room let me die for you indeed.
Dr Rad 25:35
And that’s all I’ve got for 415 BC Dr. G. So are you ready to tackle 414?
Dr G 25:40
Oh, so ready all right, let’s do it
Dr Rad 25:58
so once again 414 BCE, Dr G, who were the magistrates? there are a lot of them.
Dr G 26:05
Finally, I feel like I’m on firmer territory now – 414 was where I wanted to start. We have four military Tribunes with consular power. Big surprise there. All Patrician.
Dr Rad 26:21
Oh yeah.
Dr G 26:22
We have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus
Dr Rad 26:27
Seeing something here.
Dr G 26:30
Lucius Valerius Potitus, Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.
Dr Rad 26:36
Oh, there’s a trend.
Dr G 26:38
There’s a trend. Publius Postumius Albinus Regillensis.
Dr Rad 26:43
Does that mean he was as pale as me?
Dr G 26:46
As white as snow. We have those four guys. Yeah. Now, reputedly. Postumius has some business with Bolae that might be coming up. That I suspect you will have the details.
Dr Rad 27:00
Oh, I have all the details.
Dr G 27:02
I’m looking forward to those details. Because all I have is the barest sketch of what might have happened.
Dr Rad 27:07
Yeah. You know, when I Look at these names, once again, we’ve got some families that are really clinging with their fingernails to power.
Dr G 27:17
Yeah, and actually, this was something that in the lieu of having like a strong narrative source, I do have some things to say about families and power, okay, in this period, so when we come to the end of the narrative aspect, let me know and I will give you some more details on that. Y’all know. We also have a tribune of the plebs. Marcus Sextius.
Dr Rad 27:38
Oh, yeah. Bring it on.
Dr G 27:41
was time for a sixth.
Dr Rad 27:42
Whatta man, whatta man, whatta man, whatta mighty Good man. He’s a migthy mighty good man.
Dr G 27:49
Sexy Sextius, he is here. And apparently, we also have a quaestor, Publius Sextius.
Dr Rad 27:56
Yeah, I’m not gonna give him the song.
Dr G 27:58
maybe maybe less sexy.
Dr Rad 28:01
It’s just you know, it sounds a lot like pubic, which I suppose should make it more sexy, but…
Dr G 28:05
Ouch. So the thing I think to mention here is that how do names work? And actually what we will be having an episode coming on names soon. So watch that space. But we do have both a tribune of the plebs coming from the gens Sextius. And we also have a quaestor coming from the gens Sextius. And yet, it would be more likely than not that the quaestor is a patrician from the patrician gens Sextius, and Marcus would be a plebeian. Sure. Yeah. So I don’t really have a resolution for that. I haven’t I haven’t solved that at all. I’m just mentioning it in passing?
Dr Rad 28:46
Well, again, it sort of highlights what we’ve been talking about there about this patrician-plebeian divide, how much does it really exist? How much and as you know, imagining that it was so strong as it was. And obviously, it’s possible to have branches of the family, where one line is patrician and one line isn’t. So
Dr G 29:06
definitely, definitely. And I think this is a moment where having a quest or means it’s probably worth touching on what’s acquire store at this point in time. So there are two versions of quiet stores to consider. There’s the very ancient quaestore parracidii. They are brought together only for special occasions.
Dr Rad 29:27
They the Ms Marples of the ancient Roman world.
Dr G 29:30
Ah, very cute little detectives. They get their magnifying glass out there like Pikachu, Detective Pikachu. They investigate capital offences. And these guys go back at least as far as the 12 tables, so, but they’re sort of CO opted when needed. They might lead juries they might be the head of a jury, and it largely seems to be unconnected to what is later famously the quaestor role which is considered the first rung on the cursus honorum.
Dr Rad 30:00
Yes. And they deal with financial matters a lot of the time today.
Dr G 30:05
Well, this is where the other part of the quaestorship comes into it. So essentially the parracidii could do some of that sort of stuff. But it seems like these sorts of roles do get split, right? So the magisterial quaestors the one that we become famously associated with the cursus honorum are sort of suggested in later sources. And this is where Tacitus comes back into play. Yeah, so this is Annals, our only mention of this. So goodness knows where he turned up this piece of information and whether we can believe it is just bonkers. But he suggests that quaestors existed in there sort of like the monetary sense, looking after finances and things like that, as far back as the kings. I’m not sure that any of us believe that necessarily, though, somebody must have been in charge of the cash.
Dr Rad 30:54
Well, yeah, I mean, God knows, I don’t think the kings are doing it.
Dr G 30:58
I mean, it would be weird if they were just bathing in their own money
Dr Rad 31:01
like Scrooge McDuck.
Dr G 31:04
I mean, conspicuous consumption is pretty important for elites in the ancient world. So maybe, but you might have wanted somebody for the mundane business of your day to day, and maybe you had a person for that. But we do have this idea, again, from Tacitus, that we have two quaestors elected each year from 447 BC onwards. So that would suggest, even though we don’t have any sort of record of them, that this magistracy has been in place for a good sort of 20-30 years already.
Dr Rad 31:34
Well, that’s obviously the time period that we talked about with this sort of refounding of the Roman state. After the second decemvirate has its downfall.
Dr G 31:43
They decided they needed somebody in charge of the Treasury that was separate from the people holding power.
Dr Rad 31:48
That’s not new. And then of course, we had we had some issues where it was like, Can patricians only hold it? Can plebeians hold that we’ve had some back and forth about that in our sources? Definitely. So yeah, is some stuff that’s coming through about them existing. But if we’re looking at when they originally, of course, Levy, Dionysius Tacitus. They’re all from that late Republic, early Empire time period.
Dr G 32:14
Yeah, so we’ve got to be a little bit suspicious of what they might be telling us. So Tasos has this idea of there being two coin stores from 447. And then Livy’s, suggests that this was increased to four qui stores in 421. So very recently, and as far as we’re at our narrative in 414, because of all the paperwork, there’s just so much well, you’ve got wars on multiple fronts, and part of the role of the quiet store is administering the state treasury. So doing the doing the things in the city, looking after the cash, maybe bathing in the money when nobody’s looking. But also importantly, two things connected with the military. And that is looking after the war chest itself. So whatever excellent booty has been taken that might be in coin or valuable, precious materials that is highly karibal. That will be something that quest or looks after. And this might be why you have to have more than one quest, or because if you’ve got more than one war going on, you’ve got more than one war chest.
Dr Rad 33:15
And you also want someone watching the people with the money, you can’t just have one guy looking after the money,
Dr G 33:21
you telling me they have to come in pairs, like the guys with the armoured trucks, and the vans and stuff coming to get the money out of the
Dr Rad 33:27
ATM machine. 110%.
Dr G 33:31
They both have guns so they can shoot each other if necessary.
Dr Rad 33:35
It’s just a recipe for corruption. If you’ve only got one guy, the Romans knew that. I know that.
Dr G 33:42
The other key thing that they seem to be involved with besides sitting on the war chest and having a good time there is the actual logistics supplies more for itself. Less obviously sitting on the money is one thing, but being able to spend it to get the supply lines happening is also very, very important. So the choir still would have to be working very closely with the military commander on the in the field, to make sure that things were going smoothly on the supply line front. So if what was needed, so it was actually a really important role. And these are the sorts of things that we think why stores might be doing around about this period in time
Dr Rad 34:22
indeed. But who knows, as we’ve already
Dr G 34:27
I offered plenty of doubt in that explanation field.
Dr Rad 34:31
Always have to always have that caveat. All right. Well, Dr. J. Strap yourself in for a rollicking good time, because I have got some gusts for you about this year. As you highlighted one of our military Tribune’s with concealer power for this year is one Postumius. Now this is a name that we have heard many a time before and unfortunately it’s rarely in a great light like They’re not always like terrible people, particularly by Roman standards, but they’re not, you know, soft and cuddly. They’re not going to be the spokespersons for fabrics off now, if you know.
Dr G 35:10
I hear
Dr Rad 35:13
so Postumius of this year is put in charge of the delayed campaign against the Aequians. Hmm. According to Livy, Postumius was and I quit my translator, a wrongheaded, man.
Dr G 35:30
That is unfortunate. Yeah.
Dr Rad 35:32
So starts off, okay. He manages to gather an army, you know, get his forces together, go to Bolae, manages to defeat the Aequians. In some trifling engagements. I don’t know whether this is the conflict where Livy’s Like, it’s not where the your description, very confusing.
Dr G 35:51
It’s now being described, though. So surely this is different. I
Dr Rad 35:55
feel like Livy’s way of describing things just leave me with more questions. And I probably need to I need to probably actually, like sit down and like storyboard this conflict. But whenever Livy does mention it, he makes it sound so unimportant that I don’t know why I’d be bothered. But anyway, he does manage because he is successful, in admittedly fairly conflict to get inside the city of Bolae. Now Postumius had initially said that the booty gained from this engagement would go to his soldier.
Dr G 36:29
Okay, I mean, that sounds reasonable. I mean, that’s why, but
Dr Rad 36:33
yeah, very nice. Very nice. It is very nice. However, he does that classic thing that to be honest, parents and teachers should never do. And that is he’s made this promise. And then once they’re inside the city, he changes his mind to follow through Dr. G. Oh, no, You never say something that you’re not prepared to follow through it. That is my number one rule for both parenting and teaching.
Dr G 36:58
Yeah, it’s got to be realistic. That’s got to be the consequence has to be real. Yeah. Regardless of whether it’s positive or negative.
Dr Rad 37:05
Clearly, we have to be given this detail, because it would seem that it’s fairly definite in the source material that the army became very upset with Postumius. And they need to find a reason as to why
Dr G 37:18
was he revolting?
Dr Rad 37:19
Let me record a couple of versions. So obviously, the reason for them being upset is not set in stone, the fact that they were upset seems failing. Yeah, so Livy’s thinks that this is why the army is upset, because Postumius obviously made them a promise. It’s obviously a pretty important one, because it’s about getting that sweet, sweet cash. But there is another version, where the army became upset with him because when they entered the city, and started obviously like ravaging it, they didn’t find that it was as as wealthy as they had imagined. So they feel is a disappointment. Quite frankly, there’s there those are two very different stories. One of them I feel soldiers rightly upset. Other version, entitled much.
Dr G 38:08
I mean, what do you expect? I mean, we all know the booty has been shifting around in the region for for decades at this point.
Dr Rad 38:14
Yeah. Anyway, the situation rapidly starts to deteriorate. Either way. It’s not looking good. And then the other military tributing send for Postumius because there are some problems back in room. So let’s segue now to back in room. This is where our tribute and if the plants comes in. One Marcus Sextius Oh, yeah.
Dr G 38:39
What I’m looking forward to hearing what he’s done to receive this sexy epithet.
Dr Rad 38:45
He has deserved absolutely nothing other than having something to do with the number six, I would imagine. I don’t know. I don’t know. But either way, he’s obviously a classic tribune of the plebs, because he’s trying to once again pass and agrarian law.
Dr G 39:01
Well, good for him. I mean, that is the job of the tribune of the plebs, at this point that people need land, they need to be able to live their lives.
Dr Rad 39:10
They do they do. So he is once again pushing for this idea that there should be colonists from Rome sent out to the city of Bolae, specifically because he thinks it should be given to the people who actually captured it as and I don’t mean literally the soldiers but obviously that group that they supposedly belong to, yeah, seems reasonable. Unfortunately, when Postumius hears about what’s going on back in Rome, he made some snide comment, basically, very aggressive and threatening to those who fought under him, which was something along the lines of you’ll fight for me and you’ll like it and you’ll shut the hell up.
Dr G 39:54
Wow, okay. Postumius I think this is the wrong headedness coming through.
Dr Rad 39:58
Exactly. Now. This comment that will be in assembly hear about it and they are very upset. And to make matters worse, the comment is also reported back in the Senate, and they’re also angry at him because they’re like, Oh, my God, we’re already dealing with a troublesome tribute. We really didn’t need to add fuel to the fire. Hey, guys, stop it. Now the tribune of the plebs, however, sees this as a chink in the patrician armour because he understands that clearly, Postumius is very easy to bait. He’s someone who’s got that patrician arrogance, and could easily be trapped into falling into an argument. And not only would he therefore, probably damage his own rep, but probably the people that he represents. So I presume they may in the Senate and the patricians at large he Marcus Sextius made sure to draw Postumius into this debate about the agrarian law, more than any of the other military tributes with consular power for this year. He’s the one that he’s like laser focused on.
Dr G 41:10
Let’s make him break.
Dr Rad 41:12
I mean, he’s described as wrongheaded. So maybe he’s also really easy to spot. Marcus Sextius really seizes upon the comment. He’s like Postumius, How dare you threatening your own soldiers threatening to punish them like they are mere slaves. And he you are holding such a high office, you know, you’re entrusted with this amazing position. And yet, you so looked down upon the men that have actually thought and given their lives, given their blood to capture this territory, and yet you don’t even see them as worthy. And of course, and this is a great news rhetorically, he’s like, why do people like this keep getting elected as military? Why, why are we electing patricians instead of plebeians when they are clearly gigantic douchebags?
Dr G 42:05
Just keep putting them into power. You know, we got to eat the rich.
Dr Rad 42:12
I know. Now, of course, this comment has also got back to the army who I mean, they were angry before for some reason. Now. They’re really, really angry. Like,
Dr G 42:23
wait a minute, this guy.
Dr Rad 42:26
Exactly, exactly. This is where our quaestor comes into this situation. Our man on the ground, Publius Sextius. Well, this is the thing. There’s a bit of confusion about whether it’s Sextius or Sestius. Oh, I know. I know. I know. Just to really throw a spanner into the works.
Dr G 42:45
Let me update my notes.
Dr Rad 42:48
No, I mean, there is genuine confusion. Like we don’t really know. I’m gonna say Sestius just to keep him distinct. Yeah. Good plan. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Oh, maybe I’ll just call him Publius. I’ll call him Publius. So he probably is caught wind of the fact that there’s clearly some mutinous feeling happening for the soldiers who were technically under the command of Postumius. And he decides, I know what the answer to this is violence. And that threat of violence has got them really riled up. So I’m going to use actual violence to deal with this situation
Dr G 43:24
Oh dear. Yeah. Oh, poor summer quaestor.
Dr Rad 43:29
So what ends up happening is he uses a lictor. And these are the guys that obviously follow now just straight surround with the fasces and whatnot.
Dr G 43:39
Yeah, request should have about two maximum.
Dr Rad 43:42
Well, he’s using one of them to arrest a brawling soldier. Now, this leads to more violence. I mean, it’s a lesson here, right? Violence just begets more violence, and a disturbance breaks out. And our quaestor is struck by a stone in the fray. And he runs away before he gets hurt. Even worse. I mean, I presume that by this stage, he’s probably terrified, he’s going to be like, lynched or something like that. Now, the man who was thrown the stone at our quaestor, or Publius, shouts out that Publius had been treated, as Postumius had intended to treat the soldiers. So it’s like a poetic justice. He’s like, this is clearly what Postumius wanted to do to us. And now you guys are getting some of your own medicine.
Dr G 44:32
Goodness me.
Dr Rad 44:34
So Postumius is summoned back to this army, because he clearly has to address the situation.
Dr G 44:41
You gotta get your troops out of control, man, they just threw a rock at your questo
Dr Rad 44:46
even hitting the head, it’s not good. Now Postumius continues to be a wrongheaded man. Because he makes his situation even worse again. Oh no. My dealing with it with really harsh interrogation and brutal punishment?
Dr G 45:04
Good. Oh, just let me go into any detail of what those might be.
Dr Rad 45:09
Yes, he does actually. His anger gets really out of control. Some men are executed. I mean, there’s really no higher punishment than that. Yeah. And I can kind of understand why not in the sense that I think it’s justified. But in a Roman mindset, if they are actually like mutinous soldiers, well, you do tend to see pretty extreme punishments to deal with that kind of stuff in ancient Rome.
Dr G 45:33
Yeah. And military discipline historically has sort of followed these kinds of lines. Because if you can’t follow the orders of your superiors, then it creates a huge issue for the safety of everybody.
Dr Rad 45:45
Yes, exactly. These executions were apparently carried out using a hurdle. Now, my only knowledge of a hurdle is the thing that you would jump over. I wasn’t
Dr G 45:57
gonna say I’m like, are we talking like the 100 metre hurdles? Because like, I suppose anything that’s heavy, you could slap at somebody, but I, I suspect that this is not what is being referred to?
Dr Rad 46:07
No, because what Livy’s says is that the people who are being executed who I presume I like, the ringleaders, you know, maybe the guy who threw the stone. He would be the obvious target. We’re calling him Rocky. Yeah, Rocky I. So rocky one cried out during his execution. And this ends up attracting the attention of a crowd of people, it would seem that a hurdle might be something which allows you to be crushed to death. So they put really heavy weights and stones on top of you until you are crushed.
Dr G 46:40
Geez, that is a terrible way to die. Yeah,
Dr Rad 46:43
I mean, this guy is out of control. He really is wrongheaded.
Dr G 46:47
Postumius. What were you thinking wrong things all the time.
Dr Rad 46:50
I know. So obviously, a crowd is gathering around because there’s noise coming from the place of executions, so Postumius and rushes over from his tribunal, because he doesn’t want anyone to try and interfere with the executions and to try and stop them and feel sorry for these guys. lictors and Centurions start lashing out at the crowd, and they’re trying to push them back so that they can’t interfere with the punishments that are going on. And of course, does the crowd take this? Well, you better believe they don’t. And essentially, what ends up happening in all of this, in this violence, mele is that Postumius is stoned to death.
Dr G 47:30
Wow. Okay,
Dr Rad 47:32
By his soldiers, not just a random crowd. Yeah, it becomes full circle, essentially. It’s like one stone was thrown, but it’s led to a whole volley. So obviously, this is a huge deal because one of the leading magistrates of the state has just been killed by his own army, whilst trying to administer justice and discipline.
Dr G 47:57
Wow, okay. Look, these details are really interesting. I have a slightly different version of events, which I’m not going to suggest in any way would be superior to what you’ve just told me because it comes from Dio Cassius.
Dr Rad 48:13
Oh, okay. So for our listeners, Dio Cassius is writing hundreds of years after Livy and Dionysius, so really, really late really late.
Dr G 48:23
And he also writes the history of Rome from the foundation of the city. But he’s he’s starting from a much later point in Rome’s history in his ability to get hold of material is even more challenging. But he does talk about this. And it comes under a heading, it comes from a fragment. With a heading, democracy consists not in all winning absolutely the same prizes, but in every man obtaining his desserts,
Dr Rad 48:52
ah, that kind of sounds like he’s on the side of the crowd.
Dr G 48:56
So he tells us that Postumius has conquered the Aequii, and he’s captured Bolae. Yes, but the soldiers had had it turned over to them for pillage, but they weren’t awarded a share of the plunder when they requested it. So they did the job that Postumius is leading. Now like we need to pillage this place we need to get the loot. And once the loot has all been collected, Postumius rounds it all up and places it with the quest all the trips are like, what about our booty? We where’s our share of the booty because usually it comes in and then it gets redistributed. It’s not just like a free for all and you pick up whatever piece that you pick up and it’s yours. The idea is it’s done as a collective and then it’s redistributed out. So if you did really well that day in the pillaging on the battlefield or whatever, the commander would give you maybe a bigger portion of the booty, a nicer piece if you like. Yeah, when that didn’t happen when that request was denied. This is when things become really unhinged for This army, okay, and they surround the quaestor. So because they have a particular spot where, and obviously their city got all of the booty, and then they kill the quaestor, just like that. Right? And then when Postumius reprimands them, and it’s like, Excuse me, guys, you can’t just kill quaestor. I know. No Reason No. Why are you listening? And he starts to try to sort of do an investigation to try and figure out like, you know, who’s the ringleaders in this, get around them up, bring them to justice, the army turn on him and kill him as well.
Dr Rad 50:35
Right. So it’s a bit more dramatic, and there’s a little less justification?
Dr G 50:41
Well, I don’t know if there’s less justification, I think the idea of being denied a portion of the booty is actually a hugely significant move from Postumius. Because this is not something that we’ve really come across before where a commander says, under no circumstances, you’re getting a share of this booty. Yeah, I
Dr Rad 51:01
know. But I feel like my vision where he said they could have it and then to change his mind. I mean,
Dr G 51:07
that does make him more wrongheaded. That’s true.
Dr Rad 51:11
I could get quite murderous if someone said I could have a piece of cake and then said, fair enough, is a dangerous move. It is
Dr G 51:19
a dangerous move. And regardless of how this came about, so we’re not really quite sure of the technicalities on this, what we’re seeing is that there is a disciplinary sort of breakdown within the armed forces, that is the result of a style of leadership, for sure. Yeah. So Rome is starting to build out an understanding of what is possible to get soldiers to do and to agree to and where the line is for what you cannot ask a soldier to do. Yeah, at the risk of your own life as a commander or one of the officers. All
Dr Rad 51:55
right, what happens in my account next is that naturally back in Rome, people hear about the fact that Postumius was I don’t know, stoned to death, and the military tribunes with constant power, obviously want a senatorial inquiry into the death because this is super unusual. However, the tribune says the plebs step in and use their veto power to stop an inquiry from going forward.
Dr G 52:19
Wow. Okay, so Marcus Sextius Getting in there
Dr Rad 52:24
he is. And now, of course, we don’t know if this review is really did have at this point in time, but let’s run with it. Now, the Senate are really worried because obviously, the men under Postumius command were really riled up to go through with this. And the people back in Rome are really riled up because of this comment. Postumius made I mean, never before has sticks or stones may break your bones, but words can really hurt me been so true, For everybody involved. And they’re really concerned, and they are worried that if they go ahead and have elections for military tribunes with consular power, that this might be the year where a plebeian finally gets elected, because the people are just so angry.
Dr G 53:08
I’m so pissed off, I’m going to run for government
Dr Rad 53:11
exactly good and make that I’m going to be the change I want to see in the world. And they want, they might want to play and in that office, because they could then stop any Inquisition from going forward. So that would be the idea. I guess that the tribunes have vetoed it. And their way of making sure that it couldn’t come up in the following year was by getting one of their own on the inside, you know, they pushed really hard for Consular elections. They wanted to have consuls, so that it had to be patricians. And then obviously, they want to have their inquiry, right. The tribunes of the plebs naturally see through this, and they’re not gonna let it happen. And so once again, we find ourselves in a standoff between the Senate and the tribune of the plebs. And we’re in an interregnum, basically, huh? Yeah. Which is this weird thing, this weird hangover from the Regal period?
Dr G 54:07
Well, when Yeah, whenever you can’t find a way to get a magistracy up and happening using the appropriate timeframe and the appropriate ritual circumstances then you have to have this interim official. Yeah, then. So they’re still called the interacts even though they’re largely responsible for the chief magistrates, the consulship.
Dr Rad 54:28
Anyway, eventually the Senate ended up prevailing so spoiled that there’s going to be consuls in the next year.
Dr G 54:37
I’ll keep that one under my hat.
Dr Rad 54:40
It’s pretty crazy, but that is where the story really wraps up. Interesting. I know. So it’s again, it is another episode that kind of ties into the conflict of the orders, but it also has a lot more to it than that, I think, because of the way that you know the army is involved and also the reputation of one particular family. If I made after she, I’d like to say a little bit about the Postumii.
Dr G 55:03
Please do.
Dr Rad 55:04
The Postumii have not had a great run. In our history so far, they’re always coming across as the harshest of harsh Romans. I mean, they’re the Brillo pads of the Roman world,
Dr G 55:19
the elite of the elite,
Dr Rad 55:21
they just getting into trouble a lot recently. So we had the really severe dictator not that long ago, who was a Postumius guy who killed his own son for his conduct during a battle that he was in charge of. So this guy wasn’t wrongheaded, per se, but he was held up obviously, as being particularly severe because he would kill his own son as a punishment. Then, of course, we also had a military Tribune with consular power in the mid 420s, who was terrible in his conduct of battle against Veii and ended up being hauled over the coals for that. So you end up in court, they wanted to find him he was that bad. And then, of course, we also had, lest we forget the Vestal virgin Postumia, who’s obviously from this family, who was very nearly buried alive not long ago.
Dr G 56:14
It’s not her fault. I don’t think you can throw her in with all of them. No, no, no. But it might have been a move to get back at their family, for
Dr Rad 56:22
sure, exactly. This is the question that we can pose. Obviously, we can’t answer it. But is it possible that in this very tumultuous period, where we’re looking at sort of from the second decemvirate, it really almost down to the close of this century, there’s a lot of issues, obviously, with Rome, that’s why we’re seeing all these stories about the conflict of the orders, even though the conflict of the orders might not be a real thing is quite clear that Rome is going through some teething problems. And if we Look at this as being part of what you and I have talked about, as maybe this period is actually more about warlords and strong men and alliances, you know, families very much alike, if you will, it’s possible that the Postumii are on the outs, then not doing well in these, you know, in this these feuds, perhaps, between families. And we can, of course, see that there are links between the Postumius and other families. So we’ve, we’ve seen some familiar links between them and their Sempronii and the Quinctii and that sort of thing. But it seems like maybe these bonds are being really tested by what is happening at this moment. Yeah,
Dr G 57:31
you got enough bad eggs. So you’re gonna have to flick through the whole family away, as it were. So I think this ties in really nicely to this pattern of patrician families that I’ve been looking into. So I thought,
Dr Rad 57:44
Wait, I have one more to hold on. One more details. And I promise it’s all yours. So just another interesting thing to note, and again, not that I’m saying this, this wasn’t a real guy, he was really a douchebag. But there is an interesting parallel with a much later story about Postumius Albinus, who was killed by sailors under his command and 89 BCE, during the siege of Pompeii, during the social was Hmm. So that’s also just an interesting thing to note. I mean, again, doesn’t mean that this guy wasn’t starving to death, or it doesn’t mean he didn’t exist or whatever. But once again, we’re seeing those interesting trends, or those interesting connections, maybe foreshadow, who knows, from that later public, which is more obviously better documented, particularly for the people who are writing and our main sources.
Dr G 58:44
Yeah, for sure. A bit in the same way that we see those potential parallels with Decius from the previous year. Yeah, exactly. They’ve got some closest stories, and they they’re interested in building out a sort of a moral pattern related to families, which is very much in this Roman way of thinking that, you know, your family determined something about your character. And certainly, that’s true, but it doesn’t bode well for the Postumii as a particular gens right now, because they’re coming across badly.
Dr Rad 59:14
And with that being said, I will now hand over to you and you can tell me everything you want about the Postumii Oh, Look, it’s some basic maths, but what I was interested in, because we’re seeing a lot of names crop up a lot. And I was like, well, actually, am is that a feeling for me? Or is this a pattern in the evidence? And I was like, it’s time to do some spreadsheet eating. So the question I asked myself, because I didn’t want to go back to write to the beginning of the Republic, because I just, I’m not in the mood for that right now. But I was like, Who has dominated the politics in the last 20 years from a family perspective? Who has really come across as like, you know, the top families to to watch out for so in my examination of like, you know, all of the magistrates that we’ve looked at so far And I just focused on the protrusion. So I left the treatment of the plebs to one side for now. There were 28 distinct gens that came up in that. So there’s a lot of family competition going on. There’s definitely more families than we’ve got years that we’ve studied. So I’m looking at 434 down to 414. Okay, the top family in terms of position holding is the Quinctii again, no surprises there, which Yeah, I don’t think that would come as a surprise because that the branch of the Cincinnatus comes out of that gens, for instance. Exactly. And they hold for console ships, five military tributes, and they also have a military Legate chucked in there, but even I am very impressed by your mathematical dedication.
Dr G 1:00:47
Oh, no, I can I made a spreadsheet and then I did some at the end, it was very impressive. That is about the extent of my mathematical skill. So even if you discount the one military legate because that’s, you know, not a hugely illustrious position. Big deal. They still have nine, we’re still puts them ahead. So for consulships, five military tribunes, they’re followed swiftly by the Papirii. Again, yes, who have two consuls, three military tribunes with consular power, two censors, and one interrex. Ooh, fancy pants time for them. And then we get into a three way tie. So things are not straight and smooth at the top. It is highly competitive, even in his very early period, according to the records that we have the three way tie for third position, so they’re all getting the bronze medal, the Servilii, the Postumii and the Fabii. Yes, so the fabulous Fabians, they’re in there. Each of these gens hold seven positions of elite power across those 20 years. Yeah. Now whether the Postumii can continue up with this trend may very well depend on what kind of characters they produce in the next generation. I know they better watch so there’s wrong heads. I know I mean, get their heads screwed on straight, you know, the wrong headedness of it. So, the only other thing I have to mention is things like you know, Diodorus Siculus, getting all of the names kind of wrong for this year. Very cute. He’s trying his best, he got all the kind of the gens names, right, and all of the praenomens wrong as far as we can tell. And that is the end of 414 BCE. As far as I’m concerned.
Dr Rad 1:02:34
Well, I’m very impressed by your spreadsheet. And because I avoid Excel like the plague.
Dr G 1:02:40
Fair enough, fair enough. I wouldn’t say I go to it to have a good time. But I was like, You know what, I need to put this in a different way. So my mind can sort of wrap around the information differently. And I think it helped. I think
Dr Rad 1:02:51
it helped. Yeah, like, and it does confirm, you know, because of the way that we do this, where we’re going year by year, like the Romans themselves would have done. Sometimes you kind of have a very hazy feeling of like, Look, that name sounds familiar, but I can’t really remember how many times I’ve really said it in the past year. Maybe I said it every episode, you certainly know that certain names are coming up more than others. For sure. It’s good to have it all at all confirmed. Now the final interesting detail I’m going to add because we just we did just note that obviously we’ve got this like weird interregnum period thing. When we’ve got a standoff between the plebeians and the Senate. It’s possible that what we’re seeing with the interregnum is me not necessarily when there is a standoff between patricians and plebeians. But potentially it’s something that comes up when we’re switching from military Tribune’s to consuls or back the other way.
Dr G 1:03:48
Yeah, potentially. And I could see how this might have more of effects for the consulship than it would for military Tribunes with consular power. Yes, they might be considered lesser, just in general. Sure. If indeed, they existed at all.
Dr Rad 1:04:03
Who knows? I mean, this is the thing did interregnum even happen. I like
Dr G 1:04:08
to think so. I know, well believe that because the Romans do like this kind of thing of like, you know, it’s got to be done the right way. So the interrex is basically a ritual and legislative functionary to ensure that things happen in the right way, in the periods where things are not currently happening the way that they’re supposed to.
Dr Rad 1:04:27
Indeed, Indeed. All right, Dr. G. Well, I think that that means it’s time for the Partial Pick.
Dr G 1:04:38
Well, those 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs, they can you can win up to 10 Eagles in each of the five categories. And we’ll see how Rome goes, indeed. All right.
Dr Rad 1:04:48
What’s our first category Dr. G, military cloud? Ah, yes. Well, I mean, technically, militarily, they actually do pretty well. I mean, it’s not obviously a major thing. Livy’s clearly unimpressed.
Dr G 1:05:00
Describe it at all. Well,
Dr Rad 1:05:01
so unimpressed that I’m really confused about what I’m talking about, like, is this the thing that he didn’t want to describe? Did that happen earlier? I don’t know. But it’s obviously not the battle itself. That’s impressive. But nonetheless, they win Bolae for a short time anyway.
Dr G 1:05:17
They do. And only the other wars got cancelled. So that’s fine.
Dr Rad 1:05:22
Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I’d probably give them I don’t know, like, maybe a full
Dr G 1:05:27
Yeah, cuz it doesn’t work out great afterwards. And it is related to the warfare. So
Dr Rad 1:05:31
it is related to that. But in terms of them actually conquering something they have that done well, yeah. Yeah. Okay. That’s cool.
Dr G 1:05:39
All right. Our second category is diplomacy. I don’t know. I think that’s a zero to diplomacy. No.
Dr Rad 1:05:50
Externally where there’s war, I don’t think there can be much diplomacy. So that’s a zero and On the homefront. Certainly everyone’s at each other’s throats.
Dr G 1:05:58
Yeah, exactly. That’s it. That’s no way you’re right there. Okay. Expansion.
Dr Rad 1:06:03
Well, yes, they do add Bolae to their empire for a short time, at least.
Dr G 1:06:10
They haven’t lost it yet. So I suppose we can give them one point for that. It’s very close to home.
Dr Rad 1:06:16
It is. But you know what, it’s been a long time. Well, no, actually, you know, it hasn’t been that long. We had Labici Recently, but it it’s been a long time before Labici came along. And now Bolae, which is right next door, I feel like we have to get them at least a three.
Dr G 1:06:31
Oh, negotiate you to
Dr Rad 1:06:35
everyone’s gonna call you then you pursued me, because you’re being way harsh. Oh, my God, but that’s fine, too.
Dr G 1:06:43
You know, I just, you know, when they do something good, I want to give them a reward. And I feel like, you know, it’s next door. And you know, like, you didn’t really have to try that hard, did you?
Dr Rad 1:06:50
Well, yeah. But like, that’s gonna be the case for a really long time. Technically, everything’s next door, the more that they keep expanding, everything’s gonna be next door.
Dr G 1:06:58
And I will continue to be wrongheaded.
Dr Rad 1:07:02
You know, I think they’re gonna conquer like, I don’t know, Dacia and you’re gonna be like, whatever the border was right there.
Dr G 1:07:08
I mean, you were literally next door when you started,
Dr Rad 1:07:10
right? I mean, like, you would just like, you’re right there. Or you were like, you were like camped there. I mean, you had like an encampment, whatever.
Dr G 1:07:18
Guys. All right, Virtus. What was there expressions of manliness going on?
Dr Rad 1:07:26
Well I mean, Postumius was harsh.
Dr G 1:07:31
But that doesn’t really work out for him. So
Dr Rad 1:07:35
I don’t think we can count it as way to us as much as douchebaggery.
Dr G 1:07:41
Fair enough. Okay. So that’s a zero, I believe, as well. It is. And finally the citizens score. Was this a good time to be a Roman citizen?
Dr Rad 1:07:51
Or no, no, no. I mean, they I didn’t even get a piece of booty. Oh, my God. Yeah. Not only that, but they’re obviously also really upset by feeling undervalued that people higher up in their society. I mean, there is no one higher than a military champion with concealer power, you know, at the time that they hold office. Yeah, they’re not feeling good. And it’s obviously a pretty terrible time to be a citizen, I think. Especially because if it was going on, as we know, obviously, that means that people are also serving away from their families risking their lives.
Dr G 1:08:27
Indeed, this is a big ask, well, how many how many golden eagles that they get. I never do the math on this.
Dr Rad 1:08:36
appropriately in a year, which we have a tribune named Sextius, we end up with six golden eagle.
Dr G 1:08:43
Wow, six. Okay. Look, that sounds pretty good. Really, given how Rome has been trending lately?
Dr Rad 1:08:50
Well, six out of 50 is not great, but I guess that’s what you get for stoning your commander today. Oh, and for the commander to crush people to death, and I really, really heavy stone. Yeah, not
Dr G 1:09:04
great. Not ideal at all. It is. It is not? Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss the years 415 and 414. With you, Dr. Rad,
Dr Rad 1:09:16
I know I’m looking forward to discussing 413 Because I mean, I feel like that’s got to be an unlucky age.
Dr G 1:09:24
We will soon find out
Dr Rad 1:09:26
who knows maybe consuls will be being murdered in a street.
Dr G 1:09:30
Stay tuned for our next episode.
Dr Rad 1:09:33
Before Dr. G and I leave you we just like to remind you that we are going to be speaking at the intelligent speech conference this year. So please head on over to the intelligent speech website. And if you use the code, P E I C E, you will be able to get a discount off your ticket and down there the partial historian sent you. It’s coming up very soon in November. So you’ll probably want to register soon. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcripts in our show notes. And music is by Bettina joy de Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more excellent content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and some occasional bonus content as well. Today we’d like to give a special shout out to Dendrio and Asrar who became Patreon back in September 2022. So if our math is correct, since we are releasing this episode in September 2023 That makes it our one year anniversary. You could also support us by buying us a coffee on Kofi. However, if you aren’t feeling particularly patrician these days, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. That goes for our book as well. If you enjoyed Rex, the seven kings of Rome please make sure you leave review on Amazon or Gumroad. Until next time. We are yours in ancient Rome
Special Episode - Disney's Hercules (1997)
Sep 14, 2023
This may be the best podcast episode you’ve ever heard, and that’s the gospel truth. We’re munching on protein bars and raw chicken as we discuss Disney’s Hercules (1997) with Professor Alastair Blanshard.
Statue of Hercules in Shrewsbury – a copy of the Farnese Hercules. Hercules leans wearily on his club, which is covered by his lionskin. Carrying out all these labours is hard work! Courtesy of Elliot Brown on Flickr.
Professor Blanshard literally wrote the book on Hercules, as well as several chapters on his representation in film. We are so lucky to have him on our show as he is not just a gigantic Hercules fanboy. He is currently the Paul Eliadis Chair of Classics and Ancient History at The University of Queensland and one of the most hilarious historians you will ever meet.
The Birth of Hercules
Disney’s Hercules came out during one of the most successful animated movie streaks for the studio. However, the film was a little different to the Disney Princess films such as Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid. It was also pitched at a slightly older, male audience, and used the story of Hercules to explore the awkward journey from adolescence to manhood.
As people have learnt about muscle development and nutrition has changed, Hercules has often been played by bodybuilders like Steeve Reeves and more recently Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson. Image of Steeve Reeves, courtesy of John Irving on Flickr.
Disney does not always provide the most faithful representation of Hercules’ story. How do you turn a myth about a serial murderer, a drunkard and a glutton into an exploration of what it means to be a true hero? Never you fear – Disney has all the answers!
This film blends stories of Hercules, such as his strangling of the snakes as a baby and the Twelve Labours, with so many other elements from contemporary American society. Whilst Hercules was not quite as successful as other Disney movies of this era, there is a lot to love about this representation.
The Greeks were not afraid to rework their own mythology, and it seems like Disney followed in their footsteps.
Hercules having a chat with his father in Zeus’ temple at Olympia in Disney’s Hercules (1997). Courtesy of Adam Hammond.
Join us for this fascinating conversation about the Disneyfication of a Greek hero. We delve into the characterisation of all your favourite characters: Meg, Phil, Hades, and of course, the man of the hour.
Special Episode – Disney’s Hercules (1997)
If you would like to read more from Professor Blanshard, you can find a list of publications on his university profile. You can also find his contributions on The Conversations here.
Sound Credits
Our music is courtesy of Bettina joy de Guzman,
Intelligent Speech Tickets
Join us at the Intelligent Speech Conference this year! The event will be held online on November 4. You can buy tickets here and watch the event live, or access the videos later. If you use the code PEICE at checkout, you get 10% off your tickets and they’ll know that we sent you.
Automated Transcript
Our automated transcript is provided by Otter AI.
Dr Rad 0:00 Hey there listeners at the partial Historians tell me, are you doing anything on November for? No? Well, Dr. Jean, I have just the invitation for you come along to the intelligent speech conference for 2023. And hear us and other amazing presenters talk all about the theme of the year, which is contingencies. What happens when history meets the backup plan? How intriguing does that sound? Just head along to intelligence speech online.com to buy your tickets now. And if you’re worried about the time difference, never you fear you can of course, join in the event live online, but you can also watch the videos afterwards at your own convenience. So what are you waiting for? Go and grab your tickets now. And if you use the code peace, P E, I C E at the checkout, they’ll know the partial history and sent you and you’ll get a lovely 10% off. We hope to see you there.
Welcome to the partial historians.
Dr G 1:21 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 1:25 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Red.
Dr G 1:36 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 1:46 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to a special episode of the partial historians. I’m one of your hosts Dr Rad
Dr G 2:15 and I am Dr. G. And we’re pretty excited about the conversation that we’re about to have today. I mean, personally, I’m a big Hercules fan. And that might be a little bit of foreshadowing.
Dr Rad 2:28 Indeed, we are so lucky to be joined by I think it’s safe to say the world’s largest expert on Hercules, which is Alastair Blanshard. Alastair Blanshard is the Paul Eliadis professor of classics and ancient history, as well as the author of some amazing books that you might like to get your hands on, including classics on screen and Hercules a heroic life.
Dr G 2:52 Thank you so much for joining us, Alastair.
A Blanshard 2:54 Great to be here. And I’m not sure about the largest expert, but certainly the biggest fanboy for Hercules
Dr Rad 3:00 that makes you the expert in our book. So we’re gonna be talking about Disney’s Hercules in particular today, which is really great for us because we’ve been revisiting a lot of classic films, and so Hercules naturally fits right in. But before we dive straight into the Disney version of things, it’s probably good to give our listeners a bit of background on who Hercules actually is, or dare I say, Herakles.
Speaker 3 3:24 Yes, absolutely. So, Herakles, as he’s known amongst the Greeks, and Hercules, as he’s called by the Romans was probably the most popular of the ancient heroes. Certainly his worship is found throughout the Mediterranean from signs in the far corners of Spain all the way through to Southern France. Indeed, the modern Principality of Monaco is actually named after in fact, a temple dedicated to Hercules, Hercules monoikos, Hercules, the man who lives alone, and so monoikos becomes Monaco, but to his worship continues, obviously in Greece all the way through the Black Sea to all be our panic a pm no places where modern day Ukraine is. And of course, there are important sanctuary sites in Lebanon, North Africa. So throughout the Mediterranean, Hercules was a figure that was well known and well respected and worship.
Dr Rad 4:17 Absolutely. I seem to recall some Roman emperors letting to dress up like Hercules and run around arenas, and we were just actually talking about little NAS X and his music video for call me by your name and how he might be dressed up as Hercules but like a baby pink Hercules?
A Blanshard 4:35 Well, we’ll Look at don’t even get me started on that video clip because that is for a classicist, or one of the greatest clips ever. I mean, not only does it include all the coliseums type scenes, him dressed up as characters, but also a quotation in actual Greek from Plato’s Symposium as well, from Aristophanes speech about the nature of the soul and how it’s looking for its long lost partner. So So for a classicist that that is the film clip to end all film clips,
Dr G 5:03 it is basically catnip for classicists.
A Blanshard 5:08 Who knew that that was the market he was going for? It’s done
Dr G 5:11 really well, we now all talk about it. And we have a great time and all of us kind of like, we just want to meet him and sit down and have a good chat about it.
A Blanshard 5:19 Yes, I really want to know who chose that passage from the symposium because it’s so perfect in terms of the concept of the song. But also the decision to carve it onto the tree in in Greek is really, really striking.
Dr Rad 5:33 I know we were speaking to Yentl love about X, we’ve tried a special FSA just on that one particular clip. And we were asking her like, Where does this come from? Like, who is working on this? Is this all from him? Like, who are the people that he’s consulting with?
Dr G 5:46 And also, how do we get a job? But to drag it back to Hercules inherently, he’s thinking about the sort of how he’s positioned in the ancient world? What are some of the sort of key touchstones in the mythology that surrounds this figure so that we can set up a sort of a comparison between what the sort of the ancient Greeks and the ancient Mediterranean world thought about this figure and the stories they told and how that might end up comparing to what Disney presents us with?
A Blanshard 6:15 Yeah, absolutely. And that’s a very, very good question. And it’s a really interesting question to ask for Heroclix because one of the things about Hara Cleves is because he’s worshipped in so many different places, there are so many different stories. And so we imagine really, that the mythology around Hercules was enormous, every place would have had its own little Hercules story, its own variation about how hurricanes came to their town often established, you know, an important institution or, or a right. And so really, in fact, the myths that we have about hurricanes that have come down to us are probably in the tip of a huge iceberg of stories that would have been circulating in in antiquity, I guess, in terms of thinking about the grand narratives to occupy Hercules as life that I think I guess there are, there are probably a couple of kind of key points. And obviously the 12 labours is a is a central point. And these were the 12 labours that Hercules had to perform as expiation for the murder of his wife and children. And that’s a topic I think, we’ll get into discussing, particularly when we come to the Herrick Lee’s film because it’s totally glossed over. But Hercules, the wife killer, the child killer, has to wash the blood from his hands. And He does this by performing a number of labours for King Eurystheus. That’s you. I guess one of the great central themes or stories that relates to Hercules would live there are a number of other other kinds of stories, there’s a story about his eventual death where he is poisoned effectively by a woman who loved him, dear Naira, who accidentally thinking that she’s going to make her clothes love her by applying a love potion to his clothes is in fact tricked into applying a kind of burning poison to his close. And so he dies in agony, and his eventual soul is sent to the heavens where it’s worshipped as the divine as a divine figure. I guess that’s one of the important stories. I guess the other sort of important story is the story about his birth, which again, was a kind of very important one. So again, it’s a story that the Disney film isn’t particularly keen on, on showing because it’s all a story about adultery and deceit, and involves Hercules being the product of Zeus or Jupiter, coming down to earth, falling in love with a woman by the name of Alcmene and then appearing to her while her husband’s away in the form of her husband. And he then sleeps with her, and she thinks she’s sleeping with them photo on her husband. Now, in modern days, this would be rape, right? This is a classic case of what lawyers would call rate by personation. And this is, you know, you consent achieved by deceit, but the ancient world didn’t see this as right. They saw this as just a very convenient ruse on the part on the part of Jupiter. And indeed, they even played it for comic effect. So for example, plotters in the play in vitro, has this as a kind of comic setup with their people going, are you in vitro? No, you’re in vitro and they play it for kind of laughs now. Now, you can play it for laughs The Greeks also played it for tragedy. So in fact, we know that there is a fragmentary tragedy, the Alcmene which takes a scenario and which has Amphitryon arriving back at home to discover that his wife has been sleeping with another man. He doesn’t believe her claims that she thought she was sleeping with her husband. And in fact, he puts on her pilot and is about to set fire to an incinerator alive when in fact that Zeus appears and sorts everything out. But this extraordinary birth story of Hercules who is the product of this rape by deceit could be played for both comic effects and tragic effects in the in the ancient world. but those are I think those are I think the three stories, the birth, the 12 Labours and the death, I think are probably the three key elements in the Hercules narrative.
Dr Rad 10:08 Yeah, and like most Greek myths, I think it doesn’t automatically scream made for children in this modern age, because there is just so much murder and violence and trickery and adultery and all sorts of issues that run all throughout Hercules.
A Blanshard 10:25 Yes, okay. Anyone who started to tell a Greek myth for children suddenly finds themselves having to gloss over over things. And the numbers of nightmares. I’ve given my poor nieces and nephews, as I’ve told them stories of the ancient world, it’s really, really too many to name.
Dr Rad 10:42 And yes, I suppose, where all the products are being told Greek myths.
Dr G 10:47 Yeah, it’s it’s really interesting that there is obviously so much violence at the centre of these stories. And I think that’s it’s definitely not uncommon for the ancient world to sort of have these sort of like lessons that are really sort of bruntly felt upon the body as much as upon the psyche. And yet, somehow, Disney has thought, you know, what would be a great tale to tell on the animated screen, the life of a hero? And who better to choose then Hercules?
A Blanshard 11:18 Yeah, it’s absolutely extraordinary, as you say, I mean, Hercules, Hercules is the figure that in fact, the ancient world does a lot of thinking about in terms of violence, right. So he’s the figure, in fact, who was so violent, so bloody in terms of his actions, that in fact, the Delphic Oracle refuses to wash his hands of blood. So he turns up having murdered a whole series of people again, and turns up to the Delphic Oracle and says, Look, you know, once again, sorry, kill have killed a lot of people, can you wash the blood of my hands? Can you make me once again, clean and the Delphic Oracle says, No, not this time, I’m just sick of you turning up here, completely covered in Gore, having just murdered a whole lot of people, we’re not going to do it this time. And Hercules is outraged. He grabs the tripod, on which the Oracle sits and he says, I’m gonna go establish my own oracle that will allow me to be cleansed whenever I need it, which is obviously a lot. And at this point, Apollo appears, and wrestles the tripod back from Hercules and we have this in a lot of ancient art. There are a lot of ancient artistic depictions of Apollo and heroically is wrestling over the Delphic tripod. Now, what’s interesting is that Zeus intervenes, and he sends a thunderbolt which splits the two and, and he says to Apollo, Look, it’s your job to purify those who commit crimes. So yes, you’re going to have to purify again. And so establishes the principle that in fact, you know, there’s no crime for which you shouldn’t be able to get purification from it’s important Greek principle. And, and it’s Hara Cleves, who becomes as it were the, the test case for this, that if you could, if you can cleanse Heroclix of blood, then basically you can cleanse anyone,
Dr G 13:10 goodness me, I felt like when you were talking about that kind of detail, it just put me in mind of like, where Roman Catholicism ends up. And I was like, Oh, that’s a fascinating sort of, anyway, I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole. But nevertheless, this idea of Hercules like sitting in this really interesting nexus of putting limits to the test, whether they be physical endurance, whether it be the necessity to be cleansed. I think this leads us really nicely into thinking about the film and potentially how they’ve decided to characterise Hercules in the Disney version through his physicality.
A Blanshard 13:47 Yeah, Look, it was a really interesting choice for them to do a hurricane so that they canvassed a couple of other options. They were clearly very keen to do something in the ancient world, and two stories were greenlit. So there was a one a project based on Homer’s Odyssey, and a project based on Hercules. And in the end, they decided to go for Hercules. Now, they’re thinking about this was quite interesting, because they felt that the Odyssey was something too sacred that you couldn’t play about with, with the Odyssey in the way that you could do with Hercules and Hercules, you could have more fun with interesting concept, and also, that he was far more adaptable. And that second issue of adaptability. I think they’re onto something because as I said, there are a lot of Hercules stories. And so, you know, I think there was a bit more play in the, in the in the Herculesmyth in a way that there isn’t art with the Odyssey that said, no one would have recognised what they did to directly story in the ancient world. But, but certainly, I think the notion of the ability of Hara cleaves it visa vie the Odyssey is probably probably right. But but the extraordinary an extraordinary, extraordinary choice.
Dr Rad 14:56 Yeah, well, I suppose you’re giving us a bit of context for the film. So Hercules comes at the tail end of this real resurgence for the Disney Studio. So it was released I think in 1997. And Disney, of course has just had a string of mega hits like the Lion King Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin all these sorts of films. So Hercules is coming at sort of the tail end of this particular era. And I believe that they were kind of thinking that Hercules might be more for a preteen, particularly male audience.
A Blanshard 15:29 Yeah, absolutely. Right. So this is, you know, the IOC called Eisner era and Disney right. So, you know, after the disaster of Black Cauldron in 1985, which almost put an end to animation in Disney, the Disney Corporation decides that we need to really rejig things we need to rethink the whole programme in terms of animated films. And so Michael Eisner, and then Roy Disney together really rejig the animation studios. tremendous success, as you say, no kicks off with Little Mermaid beauty in the Beast, Aladdin, Lion King they inherently use and of course, they’ll go on to Pocahontas. So an extraordinary resurgence, and new Disney is just hitting it out of the park in terms of these in terms of these films, until it hits Hercules. And as you say, they’re trying to do something different, right? So Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin Lion King, primarily, the age group they’re looking for is the kind of six plus I mean, that’s the rough age it Hercules, they think, Well, Look, we’ve conquered that demographic, let’s do something different. And so it’s an 11 Plus audience, so slightly more mature, and also much more boys-y as well. And, and that’s really interesting for Disney. Because, I mean, it’s really interesting to think the way in which Disney dominates the female demographic, you know, the Disney Princess is, you know, the thing that kind of dominates female childhood in a way for many bad, very bad purposes. And indeed, is something that they’re kind of now rethinking, but there hasn’t been, as it were a kind of dominant Disney narrative, um, for boyhood, inherently, as was their attempt to do that. And as a result, hurricanes represents a slight tweaking in terms of the genre and in terms of the format of the film so so if you Look at things like as you say, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Lion King, you imagine right a ratio of comedy to drama about three to one. Now, in the Hercules film, what we see is a shift more towards dramas and slightly more drama, and also the nature of the comedy changes as well. So it’s less of the sort of physical comedy, but there’s still quite a lot of physical comedy, but much more kind of knowing, ironic, self reflexive kind of kind of comedy.
Dr Rad 17:45 So this might be a good moment to give a very brief overview of the plotline of this movie, particularly because we’ve told our listeners so much about you know, the murderer and Hercules his life and that sort of thing. So what have they done with the basic plotline? What have they told us about Hercules in this film,
A Blanshard 18:02 right. Okay. So what they what they’ve done is they’ve taken various elements of Greek myth and combined it together. So the overarching narrative is the narrative of the tight end Tamaki, right the the great fight between the Olympian gods and the Titans, and Tyson slash giants. And so what they’ve done is they’ve taken this narrative from myth, and they’ve reworked it in such a way that in order for the gods to succeed in a battle against the Titans, which are imagined in the Disney film was called elemental forces of chaos. In order for the gods to defeat the Titans, they need to have Heroclix on their side. And this really alarms the evil figure in the in the film, who is Hades, who is cast as the villain who wants to overthrow his brothers, Zeus, he really wants to, and he wants to overthrow the gods and he wants to align himself with the Titans. Now, in order to do this, he needs to get rid of Heroclix. And so he does that, first of all, by trying to poison him as a child. And unfortunately, this doesn’t succeed. But what he does do is he manages to poison Hercules so enough so that he becomes mortal, a very strong mortal, and so he is then fostered out to some mortal parents and this is Amphitryon and Alcmene, the figures of who are the traditionally the parents of Hercules and then Hercules grows up as this strong, you know, out of place awkward adolescent who doesn’t really fit into society, his his strength makes him always kind of unduly clumsy. So So in a sense, he’s kind of every awkward adolescent, right and he speaks to the awkwardness of adolescence. He discovers that in fact, he’s the son of Zeus and desperately wants to rejoin his real father as a god and so he does all sorts of actions to try and achieve godhood this is ultimately unsuccessful until he realises that it’s not the actions that make you a god. It’s in fact, what’s inside. And that’s what makes a true hero. And, and this only happens when he falls for a love interest by the name of mega who, unfortunately for him is a pawn of Hades, and she tricks him into sacrificing his life for her. And he does. He does that. And then eventually, the Titans are emerge. But because of the Soul Sacrifice at Hercules, made, he’s allowed to in fact become a great hero. He can then rejoin the battle turns the tide saves the Olympian gods. And then at the very end, when he’s just about to be welcomed into Olympus, which is imagined as the whole pearly gates of heaven. As of Olympus is vector kind of gated community. In this film, he decides actually, really, he wants to be on Earth with mega who’s had a change of heart who’s realised that deep down all along, she loved her athletes. And together, they kind of go off, happily live, it leads to the Disney World happily ever after.
Dr G 21:13 I mean, it’s the sort of thing where there’s so many small details that have been altered and changed along the way to make this incredibly interesting. And it puts you in mind of not just how Disney is attempting to sort of make Hercules sort of fit within their own sort of genre standards, but also the ways in which they’re trying to reshape how you might think about ancient heroism in terms of a modern hero.
A Blanshard 21:42 Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a real clash between a model of heroism which is derived from antiquity and the model of heroism, which is imbued with this very strong Judeo Christian ethos and, and you see it in the figure of Heroclix. Because in the ancient world, in order to be a hero, all you need to do is just be famous, right? heroes were just famous people they were, are often morally bankrupt. I mean, Hercules is a good example right now, not only is he a murderer, no, he’s a rapist. He’s a glutton prone to violent outbursts, who famously murders his music teacher as a child. I mean, he’s really just a terrible person. And so, you know, trying to kind of tidy him up, make him more moral. And again, it’s the same with Odysseus as well, deceit for really, again, violent, bloodthirsty figures. But but that doesn’t matter for the ancient world. As long as you’re famous, as long as you’re spectacular, as long as you’re blessed by the gods. That’s what makes you a hero rather than having any moral content. Now, Disney offers you a totally different version of heroism, right? I’m hearing this is what’s on the inside, right. And there’s a constant discourse throughout the film about what makes a true hero. Now this is distinction of the ancient world wouldn’t have recognised right new hero, true hero, there’s only I think you’re either a hero or you’re not a hero, right, the idea of being a true hero is something that they wouldn’t have recognised. And indeed, this comes to the fore in one of the great musical sequences in the film, which is the zero to hero sequence,
Dr Rad 23:10 my personal favourite.
A Blanshard 23:12 I just love it. It’s the one that gets me humming and tapping. I mean, I know we’re all supposed to love the Michael Bolton’s go to distance but, but for me, it’s zero to hero. And in this sequence, what we have is wonderful montage of Heroclix Hercules doing all the kinds of things that in the ancient world will make you a hero, he beats monsters, but more importantly, though, he gets cash, he gets fame, he’s got these fan girls that are totally obsessed by him. It’s this one. He’s doing endorsements for running shoes. It’s this wonderful sequence about kind of fame and importance and monetary wealth. Now, in the ancient world, this is all you needed to be a hero. But the end of this sequence involves Hercules going to Zeus and saying, Well, looking, I’ve done everything you need me to do, why aren’t I a hero, and he’s da, it’s a hero comes from inside. You didn’t know he’s done everything he needs to do make him a hero. But it’s a great sequence. Because in a sense, the the musical number is supposed to show you what he’s what doesn’t make a true hero. But actually, what it does is give you a very good example of what would have made a hero in the ancient world.
Dr Rad 24:20 Can you get that great line when I hear Hercules is talking to Zeus as well. Zeus is a statue that’s come to life. And he says, you know, Look over the action figure. And I think the ancient world would have been like, yeah, right.
A Blanshard 24:32 Absolutely. That sequence is lovely, because it plays with the very famous chryselephantine statue of Zeus at Olympia, which has course come to life and, and that’s the thing that what everyone says about the, the content of the film visually, it’s extraordinary, right, Gerald Scarfe, one of the really great artists, you know, famous for doing Pink Floyd’s The wall as well as a really series of important players. Cartoons For punch and Sunday Times, you know, just it’s just a fantastic job with this film, it doesn’t Look like any other kind of Disney film and, but it’s just so visually clever. I mean, you know, he was obsessed by the line that you get in Greek vases. And so you see, you know, even the drops of water that fall kind of when they dropped a drop, like, in the shape of Greek, Pfizer’s the, the landscapes are extraordinary. It’s just the most beautiful, exciting visual film. And there are all these lovely little quotations of, of ancient sculpture of ancient VARs forms, time and time, again, a wonderful occasion of ancient architecture. So visually, the film is, is lush and wonderful.
Dr G 25:40 I think there’s a real visual richness to Hercules his body as well, the swirling lines that that sort of demarcate, like his chest and his ears and things like this, which is a real visual Echo to ancient Greek sort of artistry as well.
A Blanshard 25:55 Yeah, absolutely. And it’s very clear that that scarf has been entrusted by the by Greek vase painting, particularly in his depiction of Heroclix. And indeed, there’s a long tradition of artists, particularly Iliff line illustrated, being obsessed by Greek vase painting. So you can go back to something like Aubrey Beardsley, for example, who again, obsessed by Greek line painting. So animators line artists have always found a huge inspiration in Greek vase painting.
Dr Rad 26:25 So do you think as well that the appearance of Hercules in the animated version has been influenced by the representations of Hercules that have come before so famously, Hercules has been embodied by strong man or body builders, so people like Steve Reeves people like Eugene sand out, and more recently, since the Disney film, of course, we’ve had the rock. So do you think that that sort of physical appearance has characterised the animated version as well?
A Blanshard 26:51 Yeah, absolutely. And it’s worthwhile observing that there are two essentially bold body types in this format. There’s the young, kind of scrawny adolescent Hercules. And then there’s the Hara cleis, that emerges after Danny DeVito, otherwise known as Philip TTS, otherwise known as Phil takes him in hand and transforms him into this buff, gorgeous body. And both those bodies are really interesting. I’m struck by what Disney did with this kind of awkward adolescence, because I think that’s probably the critically most successful bit of a film is imagining this hero as this kind of awkward adolescence. And it’s striking that actually the most importance, I guess, spin off of the film was in fact the hair Achlys animated series that they did for television, which was a series of episodes of essentially, young Herrick leaves at school and his his friends, he’s got a fantastic Cassandra friend who’s always having these visions that no one understands. And Icarus figure has kind of been flying too close to the sun that’s kind of spaced out. And now that was a that was probably much more successful. I think critically, then the film itself, and it focused very much on that adolescent here at least. And I think that’s quite interesting. But as you say, when when he when he’s buff, and full bodied, he’s absolutely in line of the kind of standard peplum Heracles that we know from figures like Steve Reeves, whose 1960s heritage leaves films really defined, defined our notions of what Reeves has been, or should be. And indeed, I mean, there’s a, as you say, there’s a long tradition starts with Sandow, pretending to be the wiry Heracles and his famous stage show where he imitated life synthases famous statue of the weary Heracles, that body type of hurricanes is quite interesting, because it makes a hurricane, it’s very good at lifting things, breaking things, not so good at running. I mean, if you’ve ever seen a bodybuilder run, right, you know, their fires get in the way, right? There’s just a whole lot of chafing that’s happening there. And, and that’s interesting, because it was one of the labours of Hercules is in fact, him chasing down the sneaking Hind of Artemis. So one of the one of the very famous labours of Hercules involves him really running very fast. Yeah, it’s hard to imagine if these bodybuilders running fast, or indeed, you know, in a sense, Disney’s Hercules as well,
Dr Rad 29:13 you’ve actually highlighted that I think a bit in your work, the fact that the Hercules body that we’re perhaps familiar with as modern audiences kind of only became possible once we were able to feed ourselves, you know, so many particular you know, vitamins and nutrients to turn our bodies into something, whatever it is even possible or practical in an ancient world context.
A Blanshard 29:34 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s extraordinary. We live in this amazing moment, right. So there are two key key changes are the first one is the ability to isolate muscle group and train individual muscles. And that becomes possible around the turn of the 19th century with people like Sandow developing equipment for the isolation and training of individual muscle groups. The second thing as you say, is the tremendous change in diet right so you can go to the super market and you can now eat protein in a density impurity that is unparalleled. So we can do things with our bodies that we’ve never been able to do before. So we can get for Hercules Look, I mean, for me, it’s always very interesting because in the ancient world, you know, people don’t operate with that low amount of body fat, right, those Herculean bodies that we see, or indeed, even the kind of the slim tot no Greek gods style bodies that we see in gym, they would have fallen over the first famine or long winter, right, you know, unless you’ve got a decent amount of body fat, you’re not going to survive that winter, you’re not going to survive feminine. We know that every time we model the ancient economy, we have to figure in, you know, a probably one to two years every 10 years for for famine or for struggling to meet your daily calorific requirements. So, you know, those bodies wouldn’t have wouldn’t have survived a long winter, which, again, always interests me,
Dr G 30:56 yeah, it puts us in a situation where even for the ancient Greeks, their idolised body is risky, because it’s right on the edge of the limits of what might be possible in their context.
A Blanshard 31:06 Yeah, as I say, these are, these are bodies, which are actually, although they’re proclaiming health, they’re more importantly, proclaiming, well, that is, this is a body that doesn’t need to worry about where its foods coming from. This is a body that can run itself right on the edge, because it knows that actually, it’s it’s a very wealthy body for whom it’s always going to have access to resources. And so when we Look at those athletic bodies, we need to see them both as signs of kind of physicality, but also as signs of wealth, class and status.
Dr G 31:38 Yes, definitely. And thinking about the film, not just in it, sort of physicality of Hercules, but also thinking about how figures like the Olympian gods are coming into play. Certainly, there’s a sort of an extended elaboration of their physicality as well, but I’m actually potentially more interested in their characterization compared to how we understand them from Greek myth.
A Blanshard 32:05 Yes, I mean, what we see is a very reductive attitude towards the Greek gods. So the Greek gods stand for one thing and one thing only right so Aphrodite is a goddess of love, for example, but we know that in the ancient world, she was also a sea goddess, importantly, depicted always with a dolphin by her side, she is the person that you imply, prey to for safe voyages. Likewise, your Dionysus is represented there is the god of wine, but he’s also the godfather of theatre, the god of madness, has important role in the underworld as well through certain Dionysiac mysteries. So these multifaceted God that in the ancient world had all these various different dimensions to them, just effectively get reduced in the Disney Hercules to only standing for one for one thing. So you know, Poseidon is the god of the sea, but he’s not the God of horses, not the God of earthquakes, for example, and it goes on again, and again. There are some lovely jokes. I mean, there’s a wonderful joke about Narcissus, for example, he’s always looking in, in his mirror and, and that’s kind of right. I think, that’s this is really famous for being obsessed by his beauty, but but in all other respects, their depiction of the gods is very, very reductive. We see this, for example, perhaps most strikingly, in here, who you know, in this case is just becomes a sort of doting simpering mother rather than the extraordinary powerful God is in her own right, who is responsible, in fact for making her excuses life? Hell right. Now, if you go to Greek myths, it’s here that’s in fact the main cause of all his all his problems. And in fact, it’s here who’s responsible for perhaps the most tragic event in hairpieces life which of course is sending the goddess of madness Alyssa so that hurricanes goes mad and murders his wife Megara and all his children and this is the extraordinary tragic dark sequel to in fact the Heracles film because the heritage film ends with Hercules and make mega arm in arm together off to be this loving couple now if you know your Greek myth you’ll no well Look it’s looking fine now but yeah, give it a few years inherit here I should in theory be sending matters to ensure that hurricanes will be murdering poor old make and all the kids they have as well. So so this is kind of really dark kind of this that every time you see big on stage and you think, Oh, God, no, just just run from Him, you know? And there are all these kind of lovely things where Heroclix says, No, I’ll never hurt you make and you think, Oh, you are gonna hurt a big time don’t it’s, it’s it really there’s kind of dark ironies that run through the film.
Dr Rad 34:47 Yeah, I did think it was very interesting that given that hair, as you say, like from from the moment of his conception basically decides she’s going to play Hercules because of course he is. Living Proof of Zeus is on faith. fullness, the fact that he slept with this mortal woman and that kind of stuff. His name obviously even comes from from here as well. So it’s interesting that she’s not the villain that Hades is. And I think that says obviously a lot about how we understand the god of the underworld. Yeah, it must be something dark and evil something down there, whereas hair is often the light cloudy world of Olympus. But Megara has is definitely a character of fascination, partly because she’s obviously come into a lot of criticism because of her appearance. So the fact that I mean all the women but particularly Megara I think have this insane body shape, which may or may not be a Greek vase. But boy, that waist is tiny. And they have turned her into this, like, why is cracking female love interest? Which as you say, it’s such a weird choice, because yeah, if you know, your myth, she she’s going to get murdered by Hercules.
A Blanshard 35:47 Yes, and certainly, that depiction of Megara is something that that is very common, and aligns with a lot of the depictions that you’re seeing in the eyes near Disney, where there’s an attempt to have a slightly more sassy, slightly more independent kind of female figure. And, of course, you know, Hercules comes just before Pocahontas, which will be that and then of course, Mulan afterwards, which you know, so so you can sort of see a bit of a trend beginning with Megara going on to going on to Pocahontas and Mulan in Disney thinking. But you know, for all her independent agency, you know, it’s still hurricanes who saves the day. And then that is the key centre of the narrative.
Dr G 36:32 We also get this sort of complexity in the plot as well, whereas Meg comes across as being quite independent and having a strong sense of personal agency, only for that to be revealed to us in terms of the plot that she actually she’s in the grip of Hades is power.
A Blanshard 36:50 Yeah, although in her defence, you know, she did it because of her bad choice in men, right, she fell for the wrong guy and ended up you know, selling herself to Hades to save him only for him to abandon her and leave her as a slave as a slave to Hades. So, you know, for all her kind of sassy wisecracking nature. You know, ultimately, what really matters if you’re a woman is are you able to choose the right guy? That that’s what will lead to success or not, not your brains? Not your your ability? With a quick wit? Actually, it’s Can you establish a meaningful relationship with a man? That is, that is the success.
Dr G 37:32 Thanks a lot, Disney. Thanks a lot.
Dr Rad 37:35 As you ended up with the guy, he’s gonna murder her. Yeah,
A Blanshard 37:39 exactly. Well, at least you’d have to be a princess now. That’s the important thing.
Dr G 37:44 What a relief, small steps, small steps.
Dr Rad 37:47 So I’d love to very quickly talk about some of these other characters that we’ve mentioned in passing. So some of the other sort of major minor characters, the supporting cast are, of course, Hades and Phil, do you have any strong feelings about the portrayal of these people feel obviously not being based on a real God or something per se? Hadees definitely.
A Blanshard 38:08 Yeah. So I think Phil is really interesting, right? So Danny DeVito does a great job with with with the figure of Phil. He’s short for Philoctetes. So it’s playing on another figure from the Heracles cycle. So Philoctetes was famous in antiquity for having this pussy foot. That meant that he was abandoned by his companions, who sailed on the trip to Troy, left on the island of Lemnos. But importantly, Philoctetes was an associate of Heracles and had the bow of Heracles. And so eventually, they have to come back apologise for abandoning him on the island of Lemnos and he didn’t get reincorporated back into society so so that’s the story of Philoctetes is known in antiquity as a friend of Heracles the person who inherited his his dying gives the gives his bow to not his personal trainer, but not his personal trainer, and certainly not satyr either. That’s the other thing is that he has been turned into a Saturday in this in this film, but yes, yeah. And again, just a great figure you playing on a car cinematic tradition of the boxing trainer, the particularly the Jewish boxing trainer, and there’s, there’s a way in which Philippines picks up on particular trends in sort of cinematic New York Judaism and so so he’s he’s this trainer who turns hurricanes in from this kind of weakling into this wonderful buff here. Great role by Danny DeVito. And certainly a good roll by James Woods in Hades Look in played with wonderful, Suave sophistication a fantastically good line in delivery of in this kind of wonderful draw over to that he has done a good figure a complete villain very much in picking up on Judeo Christian ideas of of hell of the devil of the trickster who always always getting you to sign agreements for which you don’t see the, the secret clause in. So, again, grounded not so much in weaker in antiquity but very much in Judeo Christian views of the of the devil.
Dr G 40:14 But it does offer us this amazing kind of scene right near the end, where Hercules enters into the underworld and we get our moment of katabasis that is happening where the confrontation between Hades and Hercules happens on Hades territory, which I think I don’t know, I just really love that sort of moment. I don’t know. It’s not really I don’t know if I even have a question. Really, it was,
A Blanshard 40:40 as you say, it’s a lot as you say, it’s a lovely moment. And again, as you rightly point out, picks up on an important epic tradition, namely, the tradition of the descent to the underworld. But catappa says, you know, whether it’s Odysseus in The Odyssey, raising the dead, whether it’s a near sin in the near this idea of the descent into the underworld, and so again, very, very ancient in terms of an element within ancient narratives. The depiction, of course, is completely Judeo Christian, that the flames, the location, that it picks up on, you know, mediaeval traditions of hellscape. So there’s, it’s really that kind of Renaissance mediaeval tradition that scarf is, is working through in terms of the visual depictions, but as you say, an important element within ancient narrative traditions.
Dr Rad 41:30 And I’d love to also bring up one of my favourite elements of the movie, which is, of course, the Muses. What are your thoughts on the Muses?
A Blanshard 41:39 How have we taken so long to get to the muses that is the best bit by far and away the stars of this film, such a clever idea to have them as his kind of backup singers, they’re kind of sassy. They’re funny, it picks up on the idea of the Greek chorus. But what’s really wonderful about them is the way in which they kind of undercut so much kind of pomposity that runs through the film, if you if you remember that wonderful opening sequence, which begins with this voiceover,
Dr Rad 42:11 Charlton Heston
A Blanshard 42:16 giving this fantastic, how pompous voiceover, and then the Muses kind of step. So hang on, wait a minute, that’s not gonna be this kind of film. And then they launch straight into the jazzy number. And they are, they are clever. They’re funny, they, I think, inject a very different kind of tone to this film. They’re great. They’re absolutely great. I can’t get enough of them.
Dr G 42:41 I think they form a great counterpoint, as you say. And there’s that gospel tradition that is coming through in the way that the musical numbers operate as well, which I think is a really interesting way of tying the ancient Greek world to sort of more modern and contemporary American cultural elements for the audience.
A Blanshard 43:00 Absolutely. And that opening number of gospel truth really, you know, indicates you know, what trek kind of musical tradition they’re they’re working from. And again, it kind of is a lovely way of sort of undercutting a lot of the kind of potential whiteness that runs through the runs through the film as well. So it begins with these kind of white statues. And then suddenly, what we see is, in fact, this shot of a vase, or which the the muses are emerging, right, so So we’re getting colour in a way that we haven’t knew before. We’re getting different kinds of musical traditions emerging. This is going to be a very different kind of way of doing of doing Greek myth that is, at least within Disney World, envisaged as much more inclusive and a story that is available to all
Dr Rad 43:47 and of course, there’s one more character I have to mention. Pegasus. Pegasus, yes. Who has no place in Hercules? Not at all, not at all.
A Blanshard 43:58 But it’s kind of gorgeous. I mean, he’s he’s part flying horse but also part Labrador as well. He’s, he’s this kind of fantastic sort of companion for for for Hercules. You’re right, I mean, taken from the mythic sequence relating to Bellerophon and and kind of totally out of out of place, but but also also kind of wonderful for for the film.
Dr Rad 44:22 I didn’t have it. Now, obviously, I think we’ve hopefully told our listeners that Disney’s Hercules is actually an amazing blend of playing with epic film, Greek myth, American culture. I mean, there’s so many aspects that are come together in a Christian ideas soul in this film, but we always have to kind of finish up by thinking about well, what are we talking about when we’re talking about the historical accuracy? How important is it for film in general, animated film? I mean, what are your thoughts on trying to achieve historical accuracy in this sort of a film?
A Blanshard 44:56 Well, good luck. But I mean, first of all, you know, tried producing a film about her clothes and not having and doing it without doing the our rating. Right, you know, it’s impossible. So, you know, Look, some of the things that worry me about the film are the way in which, you know, Hercules becomes commodified into this very kind of middle class, aspirational, suburban kind of hero. And I think, you know, there’s a way in which, you know, Hercules could have been a more inclusive figure that speaks to a much wider demographic than I think, was was potential there. I mean, I think the fact that Olympia is really depicted as this kind of aspirational gated community is, I think, a problem. I think, also the fact that it fiddles around with the birth narrative in such a way that, you know, Hercules is not the product, right, but is in fact, a product of a very happy heteronormative. Couple. So again, I think the potential to to explore, you know, at least issues that were around adultery, or blended families, or even just if the issues of care, foster Hooda are really ignored in that. So I think, you know, there are, I think missed opportunities in the, in the film,
Dr Rad 46:18 I think that’s always a nice thing about Greek myth, it’s, I think it would have been acceptable to ancients that we play around with it. But as you say, it’s the impression that we give our own culture as well, that also has to be considered.
A Blanshard 46:29 Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there was tremendous, tremendous play in Greek with I mean, the classic example would be something like Euripides as Hercules right, which that as I say, the normal sequence, when we tell the story about the labours of Hercules is Hercules murders his wife and children, and then does the 12 labours to make up for it, your remedies, take turns on his head and has no Heroclix performing the 12 labours, and then murdering his wife and children. Because what he wanted was a tragedy, which had a man at his very highest point, when he thinks he’s conquered death, gone down to the underworld, brought back Cerberus, there’s nothing that can touch him, and then to be brought low, by, in fact, being caught up in the machinations of here, and the murder of his wife and children. So So even within the ancient world, it was very possible to do tremendously interventionist things with the Hercules storyline, so so that wouldn’t worry the ancient world. And I think then, given the amount of play that we have, with Hara cleaves, that then has a kind of interesting ethical obligation of ours. That is, if we’re going to play around that we need to think about, you know, what we are, what kinds of stories we tell,
Dr G 47:37 definitely, and I think this is the sort of place where it’s probably a good chance to wrap up and because I feel like we could just keep talking about this film and, and the connections to hearing please, for hours, and I know that you need to go and live your life and and I just want to thank you so much for coming and sitting down and chatting to us today.
A Blanshard 47:58 Yeah, absolutely. Great. Fun. Great fun. Always, always good to chat with you.
Dr Rad 48:03 Absolutely. So just a reminder that if you’d like to read up on some of the issues we’ve touched on today, if you’d like to delve more into the life of Hercules and the myths surrounding him, you definitely want to pick up Alastair’s book on Hercules, Hercules or heroic life. And if you’d like to learn more about film in general on screen, including Hercules and please pick up classics on screen which is a fantastic book, which has got chapters on lots of different movies, and Alastair is the co author of that.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial historians. We hope that you enjoy the episode and if you did, please consider becoming a Patreon. It is thanks to our marvellous patrons that we are able to make special episodes like this. We’d also like to once again thank Professor Alastair Blanshard the Paul Eliadis chair of classics in ancient history at the University of Queensland, for coming on the show and chatting to us all about Hercules. If you enjoyed listening to Alastair, he really does have a wide array of publications out there beyond his work on history on film, and he’s also a regular contributor to the conversation. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Divide and Conquer
Aug 31, 2023
We return to the 410s BCE to explore some classic Conflict of the Orders. This one will end with an evil patrician plan (mwahahaha) to divide and conquer their plebeian foes.
Episode 141 – Divide and Conquer
Some Unfinished Business
The Romans had been engaged in battle with the Aequians when we last checked in on them. Due to some slappy fighting between the military tribunes with consular power, a dictator had been called in to get this military campaign back on track.
Quintus Servilius was chosen for their role, and he took his son along for the ride. Fortunately for this father-son duo, the Aequians were getting sloppy. Servilius took full advantage of their overconfidence and whipped the Romans into shape. He even ordered the death of a slightly hesitant standard-bearer! With the stern Servilius Snr in charge, the Romans manage to turn the tables on their enemies.
Roman standards were considered to be sacred by the legions. It is most unusual that the dictator ordered the death of a standard-bearer on the spot! Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
The Land from Labici
Thanks to the defeat of the Labicani and the Aequians, the Romans finally have some new territory on their hands. Terrified that the tribunes of the plebs might try to redistribute the land, the Senate quickly established a colony in the new area.
Trouble from the Tribunes
The senators were probably right to be afraid, as two tribunes decided to put forward a new agrarian law. Land taken from the enemies of Rome should be split up and divvied up between the citizens. Cue some more Conflict of the Orders!
The patricians were alarmed by this outrageous proposal. The descendent of uber—patrician royalty, Appius Claudius, was there to steer the patricians down a nefarious path. It was time to take the tribunes of the plebs on; to divide and conquer…
Things To Look Out For:
Random facts about our family history
Us once again casting doubt on early Roman historical accounts
Class traitors… always look out for class traitors!
Classic Conflict of the Orders narratives
Our Players 418 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Lucius Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat), previously consul in 437, 429; and previously military tribune with consular power in 433, 424
Marcus Papirius L. f. -. n. Mugillanus (Pat)
Gaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat), previously consul in 427, military tribune with consular power in the previous year 419
Dictator
Quintus Servilius P. f. Sp. n. Priscus Fidenas (Pat)
Master of the Horse
Gaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat) – upgraded from military tribune with consular power!
Censor
Lucius Papirius L. f. -. n. Mugillanus (Pat). Previously consul in 427 and military tribune with consular power 422.
Our Players 417 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
P. Lucretius Hosti f. – n. Tricipitinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 419
Agrippa Menenius T.f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat) Cos. 439, Mil. Tr. c.p. 419
C. Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (or Structus) (Pat) Cos. 427, Mil. Tr. c.p. 419, 418
Sp. Rutilius Crassus
OR
Sp. Veturius Sp. f. Sp. n. Crassus Cicurinus (Pat)
Our Players 416 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
A.Sempronius L. f. A. n. Atratinus (Pat) Cos. 428b, Mil. Tr. c.p. 425, 420.
M. Papirius L. f. – n. Mugillanus (Pat) Cos. 411, Mil. Tr. c.p. 418
Q. Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus (Pat) Cos. 423, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414
Sp. Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus (Pat) Cos. 411, Mil. Tr. c.p. 419, 404
Tribunes of the Plebs
S. Maecilius
(M.) Metilius
Our Sources
Dr G reads Fasti Capitolini, Fasti Minores (CIL 1(2).1,p 55, no.1); Diodorus Siculus 13.2.1; 13.7.1; 13.9.1
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.45-49
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of BBC Beta.
Automated Transcript
Courtesy of Otter AI.
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the partial historians.
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Dr G 0:59 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.
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Dr Rad 1:34 We are audio geniuses, of course, it’s going to work out it’s going to be amazing. Just your way. Yes. Now strategy, we are tracing the journey of hearing from the founding of the city. And I owe you and all of our listeners a big apology. Oh, did you break the history of Rome from the value of the city somehow I may just have. So last episode, I left you all on a cliffhanger, our dictator of 418 BC about to march out into battle. And I said I was finishing there because I thought we were heading into a new year. Turns out I was wrong. Oh no, I got confused. Because you see 417 and 416 are blended together. But 418 is in fact quite distinct.
Dr G 2:18 I have terrible news for you. You’re gonna have to hand back in your PhD.
Dr Rad 2:23 I’ll just be rad.
I hate it. I’m sorry. All right. So when we do the recap, therefore this episode, I am going to not only recap what happened last time, but also add some more information. Oh, excellent. All right. Well, let’s get into where were we up to in this narrative anyway?
Well, so I believe we were up to 418 BCE last episode, and we ended up with some military Tribune’s with consular power who could not get along to save themselves.
Tragedy. Yeah, Look, you know, arguments abound, poor strategic decisions were made. It wasn’t great. And there was a man who was the father of one of these gentleman Quintus Servilius.
Sounds like I’m making fun of him whenever I use that V. But
Dr G 3:12 I mean, that’s his name.
Dr Rad 3:15 I know, it just sounds funny. Like what does Servilius
Dr G 3:18 Is he asking for ridicule? perhaps, especially if I add on Quintus Servilius, Priscus Fidenas.
Dr Rad 3:26 So this guy had seen that there was going to be travelled because he it’s actually only been what like maybe six or seven years, maybe eight Max, since we last had an issue where the commanders were arguing, and it led to military disaster for room. So he sees the writing on the wall, allegedly. And he basically makes sure that he and his son are going to be there and prepared to kind of step in and handle the situation, which he thinks is going to arise which is military disaster for the Romans.
Dr G 4:00 This is a typical elitist plan. Not only is he going to get himself into power, he’s going to bring his son along with him, and it’s all going to be great. It does seem suspicious that he and his son are the ones that you know, come in to do the whole here we come to save the day thing.
Dr Rad 4:16 I mean, yeah, I have some concerns. But you know, for 18 being what it is chaotic, fine, fine. Yes, exactly. So, essentially, the way that they did this is they made sure that not every available man had been sent out to face the Romans enemies who I should add the Aequians and the people of Labici.
Dr G 4:39 The Labicani, Yes, who re entered the narrative as one of the sort of like surrounding neighbours, who was a little bit upset with Rome for the way that Rome has treated them over and over again. And I think from what you said last time, they’ve been nursing this garage for almost 100 years now, pretty much as soon as the Republic is started. They’ve been upset.
Dr Rad 5:02 Oh No.
Yeah, exactly. So in 418 BC last episode, we finished up with the dictator Quintus Servilius and his master of the horse, which is his son, therefore, another Servilius marching out together to face the enemy with fresh troops after things predictably not going so well for the Romans. Yeah, yes, coming in to save the day. Exactly. Now, I did hint that the Aequians were in for some trouble at the end of last episode because they had been doing so well against the Romans because you know, the Romans are just too busy fighting too will fight each other I should say then to fightthat they also started to get sloppy.
the results of this was seen immediately. Dr. G. In the very first battle, you can see that the Aequians and their allies, the people of the Labicani are off their game,
Dr G 6:00 A little bit of a mess, a hot mess waiting to happen in the Castelli Romani region.
Dr Rad 6:05 Yeah, so the dictator Quintus Sebelius, he goes into battle leading hard with the cavalry, and the cavalry caused the entire front line of the Aequians to be disrupted. They’re in chaos, Dr. G.
Speaker 2 6:20 Well, a dictator shows up and everybody runs for the hills, basically. Now this guy is super hardcore, because wait till I add this detail. So once they’ve sent the frontlines of the Aequians and the leper colony into chaos, he orders that the Romans sort of quick march and just advance quickly, I guess the idea being sort of overwhelmed them as fast as possible. And apparently one of the standard bearers kind of like hesitates. Now, I don’t know if this means he’s like, Wait, left, right? Where are we going? I don’t know what hesitation he’s giving like, did he cry..?
Dr Rad 6:52 Can we stop for for gelato? Guys, because I really need a break right now. Yeah, I don’t know what the hesitation was. But whatever it was Servilius dictator does not take it kindly, and he has him killed on the spot.
Dr G 7:04 I would have thought that would be a bad omen. The standard bearer is a very important person. They’re looking after the standard.
Dr Rad 7:11 I know, it seems so weird, but he was like he’s getting cut down on the spot.
Dr G 7:16 I feel like the Romans who had viewed that would be shocked and traumatised.
Dr Rad 7:21 Well, apparently they’re very excited. Dr. G. That’s what they are very excited.
Dr G 7:25 These people will never cease to amaze me with their horrors.
Dr Rad 7:28 They’re just like, You know what, we’re just gonna give it our all. And so the Aequians and the leper colony quickly overwhelmed, they lose the battle, they flee the battlefield, they run back to their camp. Oh, how the tables have turned.
Dr G 7:41 So you’re telling me that in the time of you’ve got to like get the troops roused up somehow that the best way to do that is to kill one of their own?
Dr Rad 7:48 Well, I don’t know if they’re excited because of the standard bearer staff. They’re just excited because it seems that they’re doing well, I think. Yeah, and I think they apparently invigorated by the energy of Quintus Servilius which is Stern.
Dr G 8:03 So invigorating, exactly.
Dr Rad 8:06 Silverfox Yeah, so wiliest, sir. Yes, sir. Yeah, so the Romans are able to quite easily also capture the camp of the enemy. And of course, within the camp, there are many spoils she had
Dr G 8:19 Oh, booty,
Dr Rad 8:20 It is bootay time.
Dr G 8:23 I wonder where that leather armour went?
Dr Rad 8:25 Yes. As we’ve often pointed out, because they are fighting the same people and over again, we really feel like their possessions are just in rotation.
Dr G 8:32 It is tough out there. It takes a long time to make a full suit of armour. Yeah, of course, you want to steal it back.
Dr Rad 8:37 So Servilius, I guess to show his gratitude says that the soldiers may have the booty
Dr G 8:43 very generous.
Dr Rad 8:44 I know, I know. Now the Roman cavalry. Meanwhile, they are hard at work. They are chasing the Aequians with the remaining ones, I suppose as they run away from the camp. They’ve just been running all day or stuff out there. I mean, they’re in a hilly region. It’s not like this is an easy run. I know. And they come back and inform our dictator Servilius that the remaining Aequians and the Labicani who’ve managed to survive the slaughter up until this moment are all hiding in Labici.
Dr G 9:15 Yeah, fair enough. I mean, that’s where I would hide as well with Rome’s known enemy, who was also involved in the battle, but currently not being chased. Best place to hide
Dr Rad 9:23 so the Romans march off to Labici The next day, have a good rest beforehand. They quickly encircled us letters to get over the walls and completely ravaged this city. Oh, yeah. It’s all in a very.
Dr G 9:39 I didn’t even have a reaction to that. I’m just like, really? That’s it?
Dr Rad 9:43 Because Livy’s very precise in his details here. So Servilius marches back to room with his triumphant army and once he gets there, he hands back his powers and he had been dictator live. He tells me for a total of eight
Dr G 9:55 days. Wow, this is an exceptionally false cat. In pain I know, right? I mean, it would take at least until lunch on the first date of March there.
Dr Rad 10:05 Yeah. So it’s considering that it’s built up as being obviously, you know, a potential disaster for Rome, typically a bit suspiciously. The Romans bounce back very quickly and very easily.
Dr G 10:15 This is their way they love a good bounce back is it’s
Dr Rad 10:18 just the way that the history has been written.
Dr G 10:24 I cannot possibly comment at this time.
Dr Rad 10:27 I demand answers. Now, obviously, we actually finally have a bit of expansion on our hand strategy,
Dr G 10:35 do we we do Oh, my goodness. And still in 418? Yeah,
Dr Rad 10:39 yeah. This is Oh, 418. Oh, yeah. So the Senate concerned because we now have the city of Labici in our evil imperialist clause. But there are concerns because you know, who else would like to have Labici?
Dr G 10:56 Is it the Aequians? No. I mean, the people who used to live there are lots
Dr Rad 11:02 of people that would like to have it. But I mean, within Rome. Oh, nice. Like to
Dr G 11:07 have people who would most like to have it in a row? Yeah. The military traders who control the power,
Dr Rad 11:12 kind of, but the people that the Senate are most concerned about are, of course, the tribune of the plebs and the people themselves. Wow, that makes sense. Yeah, they’re very concerned that they’re going to start buying off all this new land that’s coming in from the Labican territory, so they very quickly hold a meeting and determined that they will establish a colony
Dr G 11:34 there. So land distribution is not on the table. Well,
Dr Rad 11:38 I think that’s what they foresee. And they’re like, No,
Dr G 11:42 that’s not on my what
Dr Rad 11:44 No. So 1500 colonists are sent from Rome to this new colony. And they are apparently given five eighthsWe of an acre.
Dr G 11:54 Well, that’s pretty good. That’s more than people get today.
Dr Rad 11:57 Well apparently, my commentator thinks that the amount that is specified in Livy, would not be enough for a family to survive on and therefore, it’s not really correct that he thinks they would have been given a lot more.
Dr G 12:12 Yeah, it is problematic. It might be enough for one person to grow some things but I don’t know if it’s enough for self sufficiency for a family.
Dr Rad 12:21 Yes, my commentator thinks that this amount that Livy’s specifies must be more in reference to where his household gods would reside. Like this is the area in which his household essentially is being established.
Dr G 12:37 Ah, as in the building itself. Yeah,
Dr Rad 12:39 I guess so. Yeah. And this is like his little sacred land sort of thing of his of his skins. interesting theories. And that is actually where for 18 Should Have Ended?
Dr G 12:53 Well, under those circumstances, I’m willing to give Rome one more gold eagle for their expansion.
Dr Rad 13:00 Exactly. I mean, they’re still gonna get it, they’re just gonna get it a bit later. But that takes us into 417 BCE for me, Dr. G. Would you like to tell us who the magistrates are and I should say, I think we probably should go through 417 and 416 together because in my account, they are treated as really one in the same
Dr G 13:22 foreshadowing.
Dr Rad 13:32 Hey, listeners, do you enjoy awkward family dynamics, relationships between mortals and gods? Then you will love our book Rex: The seven kings of Rome. Rex is newly available in an ebook in the Amazon Kindle store and also on Gumroad however, if you’re keen to get your hands on a printed copy, we still have a few left, and they are now being sold through Abby’s bookstore in Sydney. And thanks so much to all those who’ve already bought a copy we really appreciate your support. And now back to the episode
Dr G 14:20 is 417 bc we have military tributes with concealer power. So first cab off the rank Publius Lucretius Hosti Tricipitinus I do not like this name. He has returned and I still don’t like it.
Dr Rad 14:42 Ironically, Tricipitinus does not trip off the tongue.
Dr G 14:46 No, no, indeed. Previously military Tribune with consular power in 419. So very recent that we’ve had this sort of horror of pronounciation upon us He is joined by Agrippa Menenius Lanatus, also previously console in 439. And also previously military Tribune with Triciptinus that old chestnut in 419. So these two it’s like being reunited for our whole new adventure.
Dr Rad 15:17 It is interesting that he had a gap of 20 years seemingly between holding magistracies Until Tricipitinus. Is is on the scene a year
Dr G 15:27 raising suspicions about Roman naming conventions. It might be fair enough. And we also have Gaius or potentially Lucius Servilius Axilla, or Structus. This guy we don’t know. I mean, he’s all over the shop name wise. But the good news is that he’s on year three of his hat trick of military tribune with consular power. Not that he got to do much the previous year because he kind of got swept up in the whole being master of the horse instead business. Yeah, so this is the son of our dictator. This is the son of our dictator. So he was the one who was hanging around as the master of the horse in Rome. Last year. Yeah. For 18. Yes. The name confusion continues on Sky is a tricky one. Yeah, there is also Spurius Rutilius Crassus. I know offer this with massive question ma indeed, because it seems more likely that the fourth guy is not a Rutilius Crassus but is a Spurius Veturius Crassus Cicurinus. I mean, I don’t know. But the problem with it being a Rutilius Crassus is that this is very much a plebeian name.
Yes. And we’re not there yet, as we’ve established. Many and many
scholars don’t agree on many things. But one of the things that they tend to agree on is that this is way too early for them to actually be a plebeian in this role.
Dr Rad 17:03 Unless, of course, it’s all crap. And the Roman state isn’t established the waiver and said it is and for the ins and patricians? Do they exist at this point in time? It is I’ll have
Dr G 17:12 more to say on that topic later. So the trouble with the rebellious thing is that there’s no routinely i in the fastI, as we are aware of it, yeah, for another 250 years. Yeah. And
Dr Rad 17:27 with Roman naming conventions, it feels really unlikely that you would just have one random guy from a family pop up, and then no one in the family pop up again.
Dr G 17:38 This is something that you build over time, and family reputation gets sort of baked in. And so you’re expecting a slow progression of people to come into positions and then to be followed through by their relatives. And that’s not what we see. In this case. We don’t get a routine AI for ages. The praenomen Spurius doesn’t go with this gens historically, from the examples that we do have, neither does the cognomen Crassus.
Dr Rad 18:00 Yes, exactly.
Dr G 18:01 So it’s all just kind of speculation and wildness and probably not a plebeian sad news, because we’re Pro Plebeian on this podcast. It’s pretty clear. Yeah. And that is not what we’re getting in 417 BCE.
Dr Rad 18:15 So should we do 416? Or do you have enough information to separate those years out?
Dr G 18:22 Don’t be like that. What I can tell you is in terms of my source material, yeah, is that I have a little excerpt from the Fasti Capitolini Which basically proves that Lucretius Hosti is somebody that we should care about. Likewise, Agrippa Menenius and otherwise everybody else is up for grabs. And that Diodorus Siculus appears to be more on top of the names than Livy
Defeat I don’t know people better the place than me seem to think that or Siculus got the information right
Dr Rad 19:04 this time. Fair enough. Fair enough. Look, it’s not like Livy hasn’t made a mistake with names before All right, well, shall we get it through for 16 then because as I say, this is a very blended together for me.
Dr G 19:17 Okay, so you’ve got some blending I’ve got a whole bunch of different names for 416
Dr Rad 19:21 No, no, I do like that. They are separate but I mean, the actions all blended together All right. Yeah.
Dr G 19:27 Okay, well, I feel sorry for the aforementioned players of 417
Dr Rad 19:32 out they’re gonna come into it maybe the Chinese are a bit
Dr G 19:34 bit players at best. So our people for 416 We’ve got military tributes for cultural power again, yeah, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus
A name we know well by now.
Yeah. Previously consul in 428. Not a named consul, but one of the sort of suffect consul and also a military Tribune in 425 and 420. Oh, My other note is that despite his appearance in many years, he doesn’t appear to have distinguished himself in any particular way.
Dr Rad 20:06 Well, this is the guy I think, who was accused of holding fake elections and it led to his relative being prosecuted.
Wow. And yet he’s back. Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s him. His reputation has recovered. Well, yeah, cuz I mean, it’s just attributing to accused him of it and nobody pays attention to the interview. Oh, that’s right.
Dr G 20:25 I listened to those guys that crazy. Yeah. And Marcus Papirius Mugillanus. Yes. Again, very familiar. Yes, very recently. Was military Tribune in 418. Yep. Quintus Fabius Vibulanus. Again, I’ve heard that name before console in 423. So you know, we’re all coming about in the same sort of air. Yes. Spurius Nautius Rutilus. US military Tribune in 419.
Dr Rad 20:52 Noticing a bit of a bit of a trend Yeah. And
Dr G 20:56 some return of some players. Everybody sort of had a bit of a role before. Is this a sign of trouble afoot for row on the military front where they’re like, You know what, we don’t just need commanders we need experienced commanders might say something about that. Don’t give the narrative away just yet. We also have two named tribune of the plebs. Yeah, as I understand it, Sextus Maecilius. And somebody who might be Marcus Metilius.
Dr Rad 21:27 Alright, so let me explain why, at least in my narrative, this all blends together a lot.
Dr G 21:34 All right. I’m looking forward to the tail. Well, yeah.
Dr Rad 21:36 I guess as as Livy’s specifically notes that we do have a lot of repeat players this time around in both for 17. And for 16. And basically room is actually in quite a peaceful period externally. Allegedly, I’m a little bit suspicious because there are so many military Tribune’s is constantly power. But also, I mean, it hasn’t been very peaceful recently. This is true. Maybe it’s just a precautionary measure, but not so peaceful. internally. Dr. G. Once again, agrarian issues come to the fore.
Dr G 22:10 Yeah, well, they didn’t give me enough land this. I mean, how am I supposed to live?
Dr Rad 22:15 Yeah, well, not the not those issues. You might expect it will be the colonists, but it’s not.
Dr G 22:19 It’s not coming from the new colonists of the Labicani? Okay, yeah.
Dr Rad 22:24 So if the tribunes have got sort of causing problems, okay, our friend Maecilius, who apparently is serving for the fourth time as Tribune, and Metilius, who is apparently serving for the third time
Dr G 22:38 Oh, so we have some very experienced plebeians in the rows.
Dr Rad 22:42 Well, again, now, this is not to say that they didn’t serve, but we haven’t had any record of who’s going
Dr G 22:50 to be like that. Obviously, they’re preparing for the fourth and third time,
Dr Rad 22:53 we’re just gonna have to take Livy’s word for it that they have served previously. So these two Tribune’s decided that they’re going to put forward a law where land taken from the enemies of Rome should be split up and apostle given to each Roman citizen. So effectively, what they’re doing is to take away the riches of the very wealthy. And the idea is that most of the really noble Gavin’s in Rome would be hit and hit hard if they manage to pass this law. Now, there are a lot of red flags here, in case you’re wondering. So the only new territory we’ve really mentioned of late is of course, Labici. Right. So you might be thinking that they’re referring to that land specifically, but it doesn’t seem like they are it kind of seems like maybe they mean, land in general. That room has been founded on territory that’s been gradually one and pieced together. That’s That’s why they’d be hitting the families really hard.
Dr G 24:04 Okay, that sort of inch by inch, clawing it back from the list guns or something.
Dr Rad 24:10 Yeah. And it’s also kind of insinuating that obviously, the idea is that land that is one in battle becomes part of the public land, and that the patricians are somehow monopolising that, or have monopolised that in the past and pavilions aren’t just getting a Look in at all. But as we’ve talked about before, this isn’t a rich versus poor divide. We do have wealthy plebeians. And so this kind of asks us to believe that the only way wealthy plebeians have acquired land is by buying it somehow when it comes up for sale. It just it just raises a lot of questions about how exactly this is working. Do they just mean the new colony? are they referring more broadly to other things? It’s a bit up in question. But certainly the tribunes feel that this is fair because they think hardly any land within room or outside of it has not been won by fighting. And yet the patricians hold most of the land. And so obviously, this is the ill feeling that they’re tapping into.
Dr G 25:17 Yeah. And that seems appropriate. And it’s trying to think about how would an ancient economy navigate things like this? So like, how is wealth characterised? And how do you come into the acquisition of land? And how do you retain it? Because it’s not like you necessarily have like a piece of paper? We have, we’re thinking about the foundation of the city itself. You’ve got stones that mark out areas? Yeah, you know, so if a family goes out and sticks some stone somewhere overnight, who knows? Like, does that make it legal? How does it operate in a practical sense? And if are you capable of only possessing the things that you can fight for and then win? Yeah. Because then your gains become super important to your land holdings, because part of the function of again, is to come together as a war band, and to protect property ownership. Yes. So the bigger the gains, the more powerful the more potential. So it might not necessarily be about wealth acquisition, outside in an economical sense, because that might not be the sort of power you need to be able to take land and then retain it.
Dr Rad 26:26 Well, and this is exactly I think, this kind of story. I mean, Look, I should perhaps say that people are very dubious about whether this ever happened because it is just such a classic conflicts between the patricians and plebeians, you know, the squaring off against each other. People are very dubious about whether this actually happened, particularly because we’re the character of Metilius. There’s been questions raised about whether that name was injected potentially by one Dionysius of Halicarnassus because his patrons were Metiliii…
Dr G 27:00 Well, Well, Well, trash talk.
Dr Rad 27:05 Exactly. But there have been questions raised certainly about the veracity of these events. However, I think if we do Look at this story, it would again suggest that Rome is far more disorganised tribal and warlord ish, which is totally legitimate academic word, then it is being
Dr G 27:26 described in our literary material from hundreds of years later.
Dr Rad 27:29 Exactly, exactly. But Livy and Dionysius are making it seem like there’s a really organised state with a very clear career progression and
Dr G 27:39 yeah, and highly D alienated class system already in
Dr Rad 27:42 play. Yeah. Which seems unlikely. If you Look at this sort of story.
Dr G 27:46 Well, there’s no reason why you wouldn’t have a hierarchical system of some kind happening. So how does it unfold in practical terms, and is what the sources telling us the most likely implausible explanation for what was happening in the past based on other things that we might be able to find out. And this is the part of the trouble that we have generally with this period is that we have so little extant material from other sources to be able to sort of CO opt into something that might be a narrative. We’ve got archaeological remains, and we’ve got a little bit of epigraphy. And we’ve got this and that, and they’re, they’re there. But they’re not necessarily providing that wholesale sort of sweeping narrative that our riders later on are able to produce and then go on to survive. So we’re a little bit hampered by what we have access to.
Dr Rad 28:38 Exactly. So if I am going to proceed with this story, let’s obviously pretend that we believe everything Livy’s saying,
Dr G 28:46 I’m so excited for when I’m gonna let you tell your story. And then I’m gonna maybe I’ll do is I’ll do some things.
Dr Rad 28:52 All right, so the military tribune’s with consular power had been consulting with the Senate. So obviously a bit more of an official public kind of consultation that’s going on, but they also are having little private teetotalers with the leading men. So I would read the men with the most doctorates as potentially the most wealth, and certainly substantial political and military experience behind them. And in this narrative, definitely patricians and they’re trying to come up with an evil plan to defeat the tribune of the plebs. Now live he doesn’t explicitly say at this point, so the story goes, which makes it sound incredibly like hearsay that’s this is where one Appius Claudius enters our narrative. Oh, no,
Dr G 29:45 no, no, I’m still I’m still dealing with my trauma for the last FAS Clodius they caught me back No.
Dr Rad 29:53 So Appius Claudius. Now dear listeners room and naming conventions strike again. This is not the The Appius Claudius of infamy, but the grandson of the decimvir, who you may be recalling the one that had organised the potential abduction with the idea of obviously making her sexually subservient to him of Virginia, the plebeian maid.
Dr G 30:19 Yes. what a what a man who could forget
Dr Rad 30:22 now this Appius Claudius is the youngest man in the Senate. Cute. Yeah. No.
Dr G 30:28 How old is he
Dr Rad 30:29 doesn’t say, I mean, it could be 30. I mean, even 40. Really?
Dr G 30:35 I was gonna say, the Spry 42. Exactly,
Dr Rad 30:39 exactly. Now, he decides that he’s going to put forward an old idea from way back in the day from his family. Oh, yeah. You know, it’s gonna be awful. So this comes from not the desam there, but an even even Appius. Claudius. Yes. Now, there are some disputes about exactly how great this grandfather is. Is it his great grandfather or his great, great grandfather? But either way, his name is still Appius Claudius.
Dr G 31:09 It doesn’t matter how far back you go. It’s Appius Claudius all the way down.
Dr Rad 31:13 We think that this particular Appius Claudius would have been his great grandfather who was consul in 471 That he’s throwing back to him. Yeah, the the good old days. Yeah. So Appius Claudius reminds his fellow senators that a good way to destroy the power of the Tribune’s of the plebs, is by harnessing the veto power of other Tribune’s of the plebs, in other words, turning them against each other divide and conquer my friend, exactly. I do remember talking about this. He says, It’s not that hard. Because elite men in Rome just have to choose someone who’s not as experienced not as established amongst the tribunes and use their influence to turn them against their colleagues and use them for their own advantage. Because the whole idea, of course, is that there’s obviously more than just these two Tribune’s who are serving at this point in time. These attributes, however, are getting all the notoriety they’re sucking all the air out of the room, Dr. G, by causing issues and trying to win popularity with the people. What about those that are left behind in the background? Dr. G, what about the wallflower Tribune’s? What about them?
Dr G 32:27 What about the quiet Romans? Exactly.
Dr Rad 32:30 So instead, one way that they could advance their career path is by getting on the good side of the whole Senate by really helping them out doing a solid, you know, by turning on their tribute and colleagues, and particularly in it for them favour favour. Especially currying favour with the leading senators. Well, well, well yeah. Now the Senate is really like this flat because
Dr G 33:02 that’s the kind of plan where they get to do exactly what they like and maybe they have to throw a nice dinner party later and and fight this guy that they don’t even care about once.
Dr Rad 33:11 Exactly. And so it is on like Donkey Kong, they Cana then listed. All the senators are also very impressed with Appius. Claudius, especially.
Dr G 33:24 It’s kind of hilarious. Be like, why did we think of that? Like, dude, you’d have thought of that?
Dr Rad 33:29 Especially Quintus Servilius Priscus, our dictator from the previous year who’s clearly an Uber for attrition, so he says to Appius Claudius, you’re living up to the Guardian name your young whippersnapper pipit carry on.
Dr G 33:45 I love it carry on the great tradition of your forebears.
Dr Rad 33:49 Yes. And so all members of the Senate are given a mission possible. We’re going to talk to a tribune of the plebs and try and get them to use their veto. So three promising favours personal gratitude, as well as also I think, a bit of a mixture of, you know, threats, they managed to win over six of the tribunes of the plebs today aside, wow.
Dr G 34:14 And we’ve only got two names.
Dr Rad 34:16 I know. Me as traitors. Yeah. They change to the dustbin.
Dr G 34:23 Gordon reason day, you’d be a class trader.
Dr Rad 34:26 Exactly. So the following day, the Senate set the plan into motion. So let’s start by discussing the issues raised by my Caelius Antonius. The leading senators then get up and make speeches about what they have proposed, all very, as we would expect, they then beseech the tribunes to protect the Republic, don’t stand against this law, put forward by their colleagues.
Dr G 34:50 She’s in danger. Somebody’s got to Look after
Dr Rad 34:53 Yes, they will. Like Tribune’s can do more than just create problems between the patricians and plebeians. If you can stop your colleagues from harming
Dr G 35:04 the state, yeah, you can solve problems.
Dr Rad 35:07 Yeah. And so all the senators call on the tribunes to come to their aid and as dire out of need. And the tribunes, who had been won over now spoke up and said they were only too happy to use their veto against this proposal. And the Senate version. Thanks. Wow. Yeah,
Dr G 35:26 I’m very disappointed. I know. But we get so close to land reform, and then it just snatched away in an instant. Yeah,
Dr Rad 35:33 Maecilius and Metilius can’t really do much anymore. Apart from summit and assembly.Call all these tribunes that agreed with the Senate turncoats and class traitors and lots of other nasty names. They rant and rave and then they grumpily agreed to put an end to their proposal. Wow. And that is when 417. And 416.
Dr G 35:55 It’s a bit of a mess, isn’t it?
Dr Rad 35:57 It is Look, I mean, number one, it suggests that there isn’t necessarily just like this clear classifier that you are patrician, or you’re playing. As we’ve talked about before, it would be highly possible if we accept that these two different classes exist that wealthy affiliates actually have more in common with patricians than they do perhaps, you know, people who are like really low down in terms of their socio economic status. However, it does also suggest to me that potentially, maybe some of the problems are being blamed on the plebeians. Possibly, I mean, I have no basis for this, apart from the fact that I think Louis is very pretty patrician.
Dr G 36:38 Yeah. So like, how does Roman politics work? And like, what are the sort of like class politics, not just class politics, but you know, how does the society function through the decisions that are has to make as a collective like part of the point of having something like Rome, which is functioning like a city state at this point? How does it navigate the requirements that are coming up from its citizen body? And part of that might have to be an acknowledgement that we’re dealing with the cream of the crop here? Yeah, almost at all times. We very rarely actually get to see people, or and we certainly don’t get the perspectives of people who are living their daily lives in the struggle, and tend to be then co opted and levied into the army, yeah, for some sort of military action, and then returned home or not, depending on what happens. Yeah, otherwise, we’re dealing with what seems to be this sort of finicky interest group of people jostling at the very top, who wants something a little bit more than they’ve already got, and can’t quite agree on how they’re going to make it work. And the people who have things already, obviously, have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and the people who are on the edge of that are looking in and being like, I’m so close to having that they don’t want to take down the system necessarily. They want to be firmly embedded in the system at the very top.
Dr Rad 38:01 Exactly. And that’s also I think, feeds into this idea. I feel like we see more corruption on the side of the plebeians, and we do to patricians, it’s not that you don’t ever see, like class traitors on either side, you do, we’ve talked about them before the patrician ones tend to get killed.
Dr G 38:17 There’s been some great instances of prescriptions that have sort of elevated plebeian causes or taking the side of the tribunes at certain points in time. But the way that our source material is navigating that is to suggest that maybe that was problematic at best.
Dr Rad 38:32 Yeah. And I just feel like that’s plebeians come off. In a worse light more often, particularly the tribune of the plebs, they’re either causing issues causing problems, or they’re betraying each other to get ahead, but it just doesn’t come up. Something about it just makes me suspicious and makes me think, Hmm, what are you about young Livy?
Dr G 38:54 I think it’s worth being suspicious. I mean, Livy is writing under Augustus, essentially. And this means that his perspective on Rome is a very different world from the world that he’s writing about in this period of his history, too. So there is that fact, first and foremost, but so the political context is very different. But also, who is his intended audience? Is it other Romans, and then again, which other Romans, he’s writing in Latin, he’s writing for somebody. So those sorts of questions start to raise themselves as well. And we’re dealing with this period where, from our perspective, now, we’ve got very little to counteract a narrative presented to us like the one that Livy’s offers.
Dr Rad 39:37 Well, it’s so bizarre to me, because of course, by his own time, being patrician or being plebeian, it barely matters anymore. Like it does matter for a few things. But it’s certainly not a barrier to success. You know, if you’re if you’re from the plebeian classes, you can indeed be very wealthy and be involved in politics. So it’s weird to me sometimes I suppose when we see these sorts of things, but as we talk about that when we see the blending of patrician and pavilions gradually over time, it’s still just the elite. It’s just the elite that are at the top there, and therefore, who he’s writing for is the elite. And even though, you know, fortunes rise and fall for families, and that’s one thing over time, but we do often have similar families, I think, who are going to be at the top for substantial periods of time, I think
Dr G 40:23 in if we’re thinking about Livy, and what’s going on with patricians and plebeians, my flesh rabbits, yes. And we certainly see that some people do change from one to the others might distinctly and there’s various ways to do that. And I think that tells us that gives us some indication of the nature of what we might think of today as class. And I’m using this as an analogy. It’s not, it’s not something that you could base or hinge everything on. But in the way in which a class society and I thinking of the English in particular, because I think they form a great example, Australians like to think they don’t have class. And that is problematic in itself. But the English definitely recognised class as a category. And if you’re born into an upper middle class family, that’s very different from being the lowest here of the aristocracy. And everybody knows it. And it almost doesn’t matter how much you achieve in your life. It’s very different, very difficult to shift from upper middle class into the aristocracy. You know, there was a huge barrier there. Yeah. So I think this is one of those things where the Romans might be in that kind of situation where it’s like, everybody knows precisely where you sit. Yeah. And it’s very difficult to move. Very rare cases of it happening. Yeah. And it does have, it probably has an effect on the way you think about yourself as a Roman, what kind of Roman i So I wonder, but I said I was going to break some stuff.
Dr Rad 41:49 I was gonna say I’m waiting for your electrifying details. So to GE,
Dr G 41:52 well, in the absence of my source material, I went to the secondary scholarship.
Dr Rad 41:56 ood
Dr G 41:58 tell me Well, so I was like, you know, let’s find out some more about what’s happening in this period. If we can get what your school is reckon might be happening. I mean, we’re all dealing with very sort of small amounts of information. How do we do anything? Yeah. And I started reading Holloway’s article from 2008. Who were the tribuni militum consulare potestate? Who were they? Who were the military tribunes with consular power? Yeah. And his position or their position, I should say, because I don’t know the gender of their position seems to be that. What if the fastI and the list that we have for magistrates were really retrogene actually made up? Once people started writing down history?
Dr Rad 42:47 This is very much in keeping with what we’ve just.
Dr G 42:51 Yeah, so what if it is the case that you know, people in like the first century BC decided to write some mysteries and the like, is going to be great. They’re like, where do I start? And like, there are no records. There were literally direct
Dr Rad 43:03 material guys. Yeah, that’s really tough.
Dr G 43:05 How do I write this? You know? And what they then do, is they do what we we’ve talked about this before they go to family archives, yeah. Walk into people’s houses, and people have their family trees on display, essentially with the Margot’s?
Dr Rad 43:20 Absolutely, I mean, that that would definitely be a source that would exist because the Romans are super into their families,
Dr G 43:25 super into their families. And so the masks of their deceased ancestors are all displayed on the wall and you know, presumably in some sort of order, which gives you a sense of their illustriousness, or their antiquity, etc, etc. Yes, but obviously, that’s one element of it. He then also talks about how Cicero warns everybody against believing family archives, were like, you know, people make up some stuff for that, you know?
Dr Rad 43:50 Well, yes. But Cicero was also fairly new. He
Dr G 43:54 was a novice. Homer really is true. Yeah. Didn’t have an ancestor to his name. So Cicero is, you know, sort of like, be careful, because people exaggerate their achievements, which I think fair, cool. Yeah. They also might falsely tell people about magistracies that they’ve held that they’ve never
Dr Rad 44:10 held, because he’s going to be added yet.
Dr G 44:12 Coombe lenient? Yeah. And Spurius genealogies, like where did your family come from? That’s like, Oh, come on. I’m a routine alias. Obviously.
Dr Rad 44:23 This again, is giving me such America, you know, 19th century. It’s like, Where does your family come from? Really?
Dr G 44:31 Really? Yeah, like you can just make stuff up. It’s not very far back in my own family’s history where people were making stuff up. I know about that. But I don’t know. Don’t go checking everybody.
Dr Rad 44:45 And jump to Ge Ge was a GE
Dr G 44:48 Search carefully. As single letter, what can you discover? We also have this idea that perhaps we’ve got the fastI but Holloway is kind of like maybe we don’t have the facts. St may be the first to our creation once people start writing that narrative history, and they need to fill in the blanks. And they’re consulting these family archives, and there are too many names. And too many people hold too many positions, right? You know, so then they get into this situation be like, Well, how do I resolve this? I got a lot of names now. And it’s like, there’s only supposed to be two people per Yeah. And now I’ve got like, six people, you know, I’ve got like, you know, 200 names, and I need to like figure out the next 25 years, like, how am I going to do that? So they
Dr Rad 45:29 invented a position?
Dr G 45:33 I don’t necessarily what is say that they did. But I think we have to put it out there as a reasonable potential. Because if people are not necessarily counting things out specifically themselves within their family genealogies, they’re just kind of like I have an illustrious ancestor, and they will console three times. And that’s a story that’s handed down in your family. Yeah. So one of the stories that’s handed down in my family is that we’re related to Samuel Johnson. Oh, no. Which is a great story, but not true.
Dr Rad 46:02 Interesting. Well, I’m related to King Henry the sixth, which is true, because it’s not a brag. Terrible.
Dr G 46:11 Wow. How do you get back that far? Look at you. I didn’t know I was doing a podcast with royalty.
Dr Rad 46:17 Are you kidding? It was clearly obvious from day one.
Dr G 46:21 I should have picked it. Damn it.
Dr Rad 46:25 I mean, this is the thing. This is just what I’ve been told, I actually have no idea whether it’s true or not. I’m trusting the genealogical research of my relatives, which may very well be flawed.
Dr G 46:35 Interesting. Yeah. So my mother is a genealogist. And maybe that’s where I get my historical interest from. But yeah, she’s searched far and wide to sort of back up this claim. And yeah, there doesn’t seem to be a way to do it. So I think that sort of stuff is fascinating, because that is a sort of an apocryphal story of our family totally. And you’re like, I don’t know if we can substantiate that. And, you know, that’s the distance but of what 400 or something years, and I’m like, This is what happens when people tell stories. And then they’re sort of reified through the retelling. And maybe they can become more exaggerated over time. And then all of a sudden, you’ve got too many people and not enough years, and you’re writing an animalistic history, and you have to solve that problem. Somehow,
Dr Rad 47:19 hi, they didn’t have consuls, they had something else and they were allowed to have more than two
Dr G 47:24 years, something with consular power. Very good
Dr Rad 47:30 military stuff with the tribes of Rome.
Dr G 47:33 Fascinating. Fascinating. Yes, I like it. Let’s do that.
Dr Rad 47:37 That way, we can all have illustrious relatives. You get a consul and you get a consul, you get a consul. So
Dr G 47:44 Indeed, indeed. And so one of the other things that Holloway is pretty suspicious of is the Annales Maximi, which is the Pontifical record. And
Dr Rad 47:55 g is the basis for so much of your beliefs.
Dr G 48:00 Just putting it out there, I’m just raising more doubts and just deal listeners. Yeah, if you’re ever in doubt about Roman history, this is the episode for you. So there’s apparently 80 books of the finales maximum, right. And Holloway is kind of like, but they what do they even have in them? Like, it’s just going to be an oddball collection of stuff that probably doesn’t make a lot of sense. Gonna stay close to the chicken. Then there are the linen books. He talks about these before. Yes, because cost of living Yeah, preserved in the temple of Juno monitor. And also cited by Linnaeus Mesa and Eilis tuber, other writers that we only have fragments of indeed,
Dr Rad 48:38 also cited by with me. And yes, I think I think the whole idea is that levy has potentially some information from living in books via his sources that use
Dr G 48:49 them. Oh, there doesn’t seem to be a consensus about the quality of the information in the linen books. There’s potential for disagreement within those as well, actually. So that’s good. And, you know, so this leaves us in a situation where, what is the history of where we’re getting rapidly towards the end of the fifth century BCE? We were heading there now. But this is a period where so little is something that we can hold on to as like, fact.
Dr Rad 49:19 Well, particularly because I think we’ve mentioned this in quite a few episodes, when we get to these really confusing times where people are saying, Ah, that’s it didn’t really happen, and those people probably didn’t really exist and they just made up names and it starts to make you question, what am I even doing? Right when it seems so doubtful, but as we talked about before, there is this real turning point where allegedly room is destroyed, razed to the ground, lots of records destroyed, and that our records will presumably get a bit more reliable once Rome itself and its record keeping is a little bit more protected from external attack and that sort of thing. But I mean, to be honest, even after that, you know, still had a lot of bloody fires in your nose was being destroyed?
Dr G 50:07 Well, exactly. And I think there’s always a value in considering how people writing about history within a society are thinking about their own society as well. And even if, at best, what we’re learning is what did Livy’s and Dionysius and other sort of first century BC or C authors really think about this really early period of their own history? I still think that’s a really valuable sort of tool because it provides the mindset for people of the day do then think about, well, if this is what Rome is, how do I operate from here? How do I fit into this? And how can I push and change from within this context? A shared understanding of history is one that allows you to make different decisions. Yes.
Dr Rad 50:49 And who are we to question Livy? Really?
Dr G 50:55 I mean, so I’m Dr. G. And I use that as my basis for being able to Livy’s At times,
Dr Rad 51:03 I know very realistically there, even though he is writing many centuries after we are podcasting 1000s of years after, so, I’m hoping that somewhere he had access to better sources.
Dr G 51:16 I mean, I’d like to think so.
Dr Rad 51:19 Or identity. So I think that brings us to the end of our episode or 417 and 416, which was seemingly really more about 416.
Dr G 51:30 Nobody got to Look at in from 470 really know
Dr Rad 51:33 that anyway. It’s done for the Partial Pick.
All right, Dr G, tell us how does the Partial Pick?
Dr G 51:46 There are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs. 10 across five categories? Yeah, the higher the Eagles score, the greater room is.
Dr Rad 51:57 Alright, so what’s our first category? Military clout? Okay, well, there is definitely some stuff here. I mean, not so much 417 and 416. But because I left the tail end before it taken out. We do have some victories we do
Dr G 52:10 a victory over what the Aequians and the in the Labicani really? Yes.
Dr Rad 52:15 I mean, it’s one of those stories where always when Rome hits problems, we then get a story very soon after, where they just sweep everything before them. Effortless, easy, simple. But nonetheless, it happened to
Dr G 52:30 you telling me there’s some kind of narrative flow that you can detect in the history,
Dr Rad 52:34 the ebbs and flows, but nonetheless, we are told that they are victorious. And, and how I mean, they not only manage to beat them, but
Dr G 52:42 a shout out to those letters really rapidly. Yeah,
Dr Rad 52:45 they captured they can they made them run away to a nearby city to take refuge and they captured that city and took all the beauty from that. And then they set up a colleague. Oh, my God. That’s a lot of military class.
Dr G 52:56 Oh, give them to what? Just because you think it didn’t really haven’t? No. Doctors? I mean, they’ve only taken one place.
Dr Rad 53:08 Do you know how long it’s been since they’re
Dr G 53:11 willing to up it to three?
Dr Rad 53:12 I think they do deserve a three. I mean, it is a little suspicious that this guy didn’t get to travel anything, huh? Indeed. Very. All right. Well
Dr G 53:22 gave me three diplomacy. No. Yeah, it was pretty abject failure. In fact, the patricians are trying to really ruin the potential for diplomacy internally. Yeah. Getting some of the tribune of the plebs on the on their side.
Dr Rad 53:38 Well, I mean, I guess that is diplomatic, and that they’re not stabbing them in the streets. But I think I think there’s again, as we keep coming back to I think there’s a difference between being slightly diplomatic and mostly manipulative, and actual diplomacy.
Dr G 53:53 Yeah, yeah. So I’m giving them zero for that.
Dr Rad 53:55 I agree. Expansion. Yes. Yes. 1000 times? Yes.
Dr G 54:02 We have a whole new colony now. Do you? Oh, my God, the love and Connie are probably pretty unhappy. We’ll see how that turns out.
Dr Rad 54:10 If they felt they started this century. I’m happy. It’s only getting worse. And yet well, so what are we saying? We’ve got to call any reasonable amount of people. They’re all given a bit of land for.
Dr G 54:23 Not enough to live off. Well, I
Dr Rad 54:25 mean, as we say, this could just be a misunderstanding.
Dr G 54:26 All right, for we’re to us.
Dr Rad 54:31 Look, we do have some news for patrician douchebags on the scene, but I’m not sure if it’s quiet enough.
Dr G 54:36 Yeah. I don’t think they’re necessarily engaging you weird to us.
Dr Rad 54:40 Yeah. I mean, is killing your standard bearer. sign of weakness.
Dr G 54:44 I feel like I need more details to be able to clarify, because it might well be, but I don’t know. I feel like no citizen score.
Dr Rad 54:52 Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess there is a new colony being set up but the way the tribune is carrying on I feel like it’s not been good news for the people. While
Dr G 55:00 it does seem like they’re getting the raw end of the prawn, so to speak,
Dr Rad 55:05 yeah, and then the tribunes betray may cause so that can’t be so not ideal if you’re a citizen. No, no, not positive. So is that a zero?
Dr G 55:15 I think that might be a zero.
Dr Rad 55:18 I mean, on the other hand, though, I’m just going to throw it out there. There is peace in 417 and 416. All the problems are internal, which means no war, no levee. After you farm, see the kids?
Dr G 55:32 Yeah, sure. But you’re not getting any land or you’re not any
Dr Rad 55:35 more land. I mean, this is what we’ve often talked about, is the absence of war worth a point or is it?
Dr G 55:46 I think it’s a case by case basis. But if we want them to have not an objectively low score, perhaps we could give them one.
Dr Rad 55:53 Well, Look, I don’t mind having a low score. I guess I’m just wondering if the absence of war isn’t itself something we maybe have to recognise,
Dr G 56:01 I think, well, I mean, not going to war is great. But also they were trying for some things at home, which didn’t really get pulled off at all. So I feel like it’s risky.
Dr Rad 56:13 Yeah. Okay. So probably easier than yes. We get data love seven out of 50 Golden Eagles for two and a half years of Roman history.
Dr G 56:28 Boy, ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 56:31 Yes. Didn’t. Don’t why studied you for so long.
Dr G 56:36 They get good later, I think. Yeah, I’ve heard a rumour. But it just depends.
Dr Rad 56:43 Well, did you thank you once again for joining me to talk about the history of rain from the founding of the city.
Dr G 56:50 It has been an absolute pleasure, and I Look forward to continuing the journey with you soon
Dr Rad 56:56 indeed.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. And today, we’d like to give a special shout out to our newest Patreon Dick Karis and Vanessa, you can also support us by buying a coffee on coffee. Huge thanks to Anne Marie, Dana Gray and Augustus naturally for their generous cups of support. However, if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell us more about the show or give us a five star review. We massively appreciate your very kind words. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Classical Reception in Lil Nas X with Yentl Love
Aug 17, 2023
We sit down with Yentl Love to talk all about classical reception in Lil Nas X’s 2021 music video for ‘Call Me By Your Name’. Yentl Love is the famous Queer Classicist and we recommend checking out her blog for accessible analysis of the ancient world. We are thrilled to have Yentl return to the show – you may remember her from the insightful conversation we had about the reception of Cleopatra.
Lil Nas X has enjoyed great success with his debut album Montero and we were keen to learn more about how he utilised allusions to the ancient world to drive conversations about black identity and queerness as well as to complicate ideas about the heroic and how we might derive meaning when we analyse the past.
It’s definitely worth watching the music video before getting into the episode itself!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swmTBVI83k
The ancient world has a wealth of symbolism and allusion that has built up and developed over time through the use and reuse of imagery and ideas and this conversation really just touches some of the potentials.
Special Episode – Classical Reception in Lil Nas X with Yentl Love
The Ideal Man
What makes the ideal man? Lil Nas X poses the question with a visual allusion to Doryphoros, the famous sculpture by the Greek Polykleitos, which is thought to represent the physical ideal in ancient Greek culture. Doryphoros was a favoured subjected in later Roman sculpture as well.
Doryphoros from Pompeii – A Roman marble reimagining of a Greek sculpture by Polykeitos. Now in the MAN Napoli.
Architectural Influences
The opening of the music video provides a sweeping vista that on the surface has the appearance of paradise but is dotted with ruined buildings and structures. What could this mean? We ask Yentl’s perspective.
Still from ‘Call Me By your Name’ showing a Doric Temple in the foreground and an Aqueduct in the background
Just a regular symposium…
Famously, Plato’s Symposium gets a shout out in ‘Call me By Your Name’ with a quotation that roughly translates as “After the division the two parts of man, each desiring his other half…” We consider the significance of this phrase in context and enjoy the fact that every so often someone uses an ancient language in a modern setting!
Still from ‘Call Me By Your Name’ Ancient Greek from Plato’s Symposium on the Tree of Knowledge
I like my hair like I like my Flavians!
As the music video progresses, we see Lil Nas X shift scenes to an arena. The hairstyles on display in this scene recall the gravity defying hair styles favoured by the Flavian dynasty.
Still from ‘Call Me By Your Name’ showing hairstyles echoing the Flavians
For comparison, consider the hair style of the portrait bust below. Although the identity of the subject is not certain, this piece is often identified as Julia Titi, the daughter of the Flavian emperor Titus. She was reputed to be a great beauty, but it’s the very high ringlets that win the day here!
Portrait bust of a young woman with an extremely high hair style made of ringlets. Capitoline Museum. Source: Tumblr
Still from ‘Call Me By your Name’ Music Video by Lil Nas X. Notes that the video was directed by Tanu Muino and Lil Nas X, song produced by D. Baptiste, D. Biral, O. Fedi, R. Lenzo.
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for clarity.
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:57 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m one of your hosts, Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:06 And I am Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:08 And we are thrilled to be joined today by Yentl Love, who is working on her PhD at Potsdam University and is universally famous for her blog as The Queer Classicist. Thank you so much for joining us.
Yentl 1:26 Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I’m so glad to be back chatting to you more.
Dr Rad 1:31 So we’re very excited because we’re discussing something extremely cool. And actually, quite frankly, a little out of our comfort zone today.
Dr G 1:41 Yeah, look, I don’t think we are known as paragons of popular music. Nevertheless, we were super fascinated to see the rise. And the continued rise, I think of Lil Nas X, and what he is doing with his musical journey. And it is a thrill to sit down today with anto to talk about one specific music video that has come through and his debut album, and that is Montero “Call Me By Your Name”.
Dr Rad 2:09 So let’s kick it off with our first question. So let’s think about maybe classical reception more broadly. Because of course, the video clip is kind of what’s intrigued us all, I think with its imagery and whatnot. So classical reception can obviously take many forms. I personally like the film side of things, but can you talk us through what the phrase classical reception means to you?
Yentl 2:30 So yeah, I mean, as you said, this is a really, really broad field that we’re talking about, and it encompasses so much within it. On its most basic level, I’d say that when we are talking about classical reception, we’re kind of considering how the classical world so really looking at ancient Greece and Rome, and how it has been received and portrayed or represented across time. So this can be anything from an architecture, when we see buildings deliberately kind of evoking this ancient Greco Roman kind of period. Or in literature, like, famously Madeline Miller’s “Song of Achilles”, or in music, like Lizzo’s music video for “Rumors”, and we’re going to talk about Lil Nas X’s music video. And as well as like, where we see these parts of ancient history depicted. I think another big part of classical reception is thinking, why do we see these particular parts down? Why is there this use of like Greek and Roman material? What is the specific message that the work of reception is trying to put through? Through using it? But yeah, the field really is just massively wide. And what I really like about it is I think that all uses of classical reception are equally valid and equally worthy of study, like a piece of fanfiction about, like Mark Antony and Augustus, could be discussed in like just as much detail as like the architecture of the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin. All of this is just different types of classical reception.
Dr G 4:08 Yeah, there’s really a wide array of uses and reuses of ancient imagery. And when we’re talking about classical reception, hinting back at particularly Greece and Rome are though I imagine at some point, we’re also going to see in our lifetimes, the interrogation of classical in a more robust way, and I’m looking forward to seeing how that goes. But taking off from where we’re starting with, like this idea of classical reception in modern culture, for a little bit of context for our listeners out there who spend all ages and all interests, who is Lil Nas X?
Yentl 4:43 Okay, so Lil Nas X is a stage name for Montero Lamar Hill. He is a black, queer American rapper and singer songwriter, and I think probably he’s most famous for his song “Old Town Road”, but then he released his first studio album “Montero” in 2021. And yeah, the music video we’re going to be talking about is from one of the songs on that debut album.
Dr Rad 5:11 Absolutely. I mean, I had never heard of it before. I know everyone’s gonna be really shocked that I don’t follow rap. In any, you know, I really stopped listening after “Shoop”. And so I’m really glad that I had my attention directed towards his music video, because it is really fascinating. And we’re not the only ones to be interested in it. Because there’s some really intriguing representations and expressions of queerness. And the ways that the music video explores allusions to the ancient world. So what are some of the significant images and symbols that come through in the music video?
Yentl 5:47 So one of the things that’s like, most interesting, I think about the video is the way it forms almost like a long heroic art are a long narrative around this central character. But we can really split the whole video into three sections. There’s this kind of chasing at the start. And that’s taking place in a landscape where we see like architectural ruins of Greek buildings and temples, we see Greek inscriptions. And then that continues as we move into the second thematic section, which is in this kind of arena, big quality and style venue. So again, we’ve got this repeated association with Greco Roman architecture, which kind of really grounded it and discussion of the video as a work of receptions. And what’s really interesting with the second thing is that the figures are all depicted with these very, very tooled like elaborately cold wigs, which almost perfectly mirror the statues that we have of women from this period of Rome called Flavian. Rome. And in that period, we start to see a lot of concerns emerging about female independent about female sexuality. And so it’s the start of this like real discussion about almost like changing gender roles and concerns about sexuality. So it’s a really kind of niche insight into this ancient discussion of what was happening with gender and sexuality and then brought through into, you know, Lil Nas X’s exploration of this kind of queerness. And we also then, in the same scene have known as a pairing and chain, which has both been read through this kind of biblical lens as a reflection of John the Baptist, or of Samson with like Samson and Delilah, but also seems similar to Herakles or Hercules in Rome, in his outfit the way he’s portrayed, like in modern strongman, that’s not my area. But we see that same pose when you’re holding up columns with big chains, and that is referred to as the Hercules pose. So we get this kind of reflection of Hercules and no knights portraying himself as this kind of hero throughout the throughout the music video. And then again, when the venue changes, he descends into hell or Hades. And we see statues outside the gates which seem very, very Greek. They’re looking like these depictions of Doryphoros, which was sculpture, Polykleitos says he was sculpting like the ideal man. And so it’s like the spear bearer, and we see them standing outside the gate to hell. And then as he enters, we see statues of Medusa, which again, is a kind of image we’ve seen all throughout this music video. And that in itself has massive ties to both classical mythologies, classical receptions, and also to black culture. We have a lot of poems by black and diasporic women, where they kind of claim Medusa as a collective ancestor. Or they compare the way that Medusas hair is treated to the way that black women’s hair has been historically shamed. And kind of reviled by white western culture. If you want to read up more on that poets like Dorothea Smartt, and Shara McCallum really talk about this and exemplify this in their work. But yeah, so we have these kind of repeated motifs of different eras, the heroic area, the Medusa kind of metaphor, and the Medusa symbols, and then also this repeated discussion of like the architecture, the ruined architecture, and throwback to specific period and Roman history.
Dr Rad 9:36 I have to say, I am blown away by how much has actually been packed into this video clip because it’s like less than three minutes long.
Yentl 9:45 Yeah unbelievable. Literally, when I presented on this topic at a conference in April, I think, and when I was looking through the music video, it was almost like every two seconds just pausing it and being like taking note that oh, okay, and another thing on thing? So yeah, it’s just massively like you said, it’s really packed in.
Dr G 10:07 And I think it has this amazing capacity to draw on multiple sources at once and sort of enrich itself through its sort of intertextuality. So you’re storing that sort of reference, not just to Roman history, not just to the Greek heroic mode, but also those connections between queerness and blackness, and how that representation might be filtered through these different types of lenses. I really love the Flavian hair, I have to say, I think that’s amazing. And the Flavian is have this really tricky period where it’s this sort of backlash against the jeweler chlorians and the excesses of that, and some of the perceived power plays of women within that former dynasty. And so it’s like, how will Flavian women be perceived, and the way that this video sort of touches on that as well, and has that sort of call back to that sort of constraint in the feminine, that is happening through the way that hair is dressed is really interesting.
Yentl 11:09 Yeah, absolutely.
Dr G 11:10 So on that note, not only does Lil Nas X engage in classical illusion, visually, but we also get this direct intertextual reference to Plato’s Symposium. So there is a tree of knowledge in this video. So there’s no way to separate out the classical reception with the Christian reception that is going on here. But this tree of knowledge is a really prominent symbol in the video. And there is this moment where we get this close up of the tree trunk, and it’s inscribed with ancient Greek. And we never get a translation for that in the video, it’s just left there for the viewer to ponder on and enjoy. Or if you study ancient Greek to be like, Oh. My. God. Something is happening. So even though the phrase remains untranslated, it doesn’t really take long for the collective world to come together and look at what is being considered here, which is this really particular idea of “the division of two parts of men, each desiring his other half.” And I’m interested in the significance you read in this intertextual illusion.
Yentl 12:20 Yeah, I completely agree with the excitement when I first saw it as like, this is why all of those like hard use of doing ancient Greek, they are worth it for this specific music video. But yeah, this quote is one of my favorite, I think aspects of the whole video. So it’s referencing, as you said, Plato’s Symposium. And the specific part has been quoted comes from this discussion by the character s Aristophanes, talking about how early humans were double formed by two bodies in one. And then when their bodies were split by Zeus, they will always like search for their original half. So if you’re a woman that was in a female female body, you will search for another woman, if you are a man from a male male body, who search for another man, if you’re from a male female body, you will be searching for the other gender. So obviously, this discussion is supposed to be taken literally, they’re just swapping stories about ideas that they have about love in this passage. But it forms a really interesting kind of early discussion of the idea of soulmate, but also explaining why different people might be attracted to certain genders. So this quote, to me has this really important like dual meaning, not only the fact that it’s untranslated ancient Greek, I think really, like we said before, kind of grounds this as a work of classical reception, and grounds the whole piece in this discussion of kind of Greco Roman antiquity. But it’s also this deliberate reference to ancient discussions of sexuality. And the ways that ancient people were talking about same sex attraction, attraction, same sex love, which really establishes this video as, like beautiful queer performance. And also kind of brings up the idea of collective ancestors, or that queer desire has always existed, which I think is very important to be talking about now, especially when we’re saying, you know, there’s a lot of anti like homophobic, transphobic legislation going on in lots of different parts of the world, but particularly in America, where this video is being produced. And so yeah, I think it’s a really important reference back to the ancient Greek tradition.
Dr G 14:39 Yeah, definitely. I think it’s giving us an opportunity to think a little bit more deeply about where our attitudes first of all sprang from, and also just how embedded in the human experience queerness is and thinking about where people sit in terms of their identity and where they sit in terms of their sexuality, how has always been a conversation that people are having with each other, and sometimes in a much more structured, and dare I say polite way than is happening today?
Yentl 15:12 Oh, yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.
Dr Rad 15:15 And it’s really interesting to consider because I, when I was doing a bit of research in preparation for this conversation, I believe that when you look at the lyrics and the the meaning of those that Lil Nas X was drawing on some of his own romantic experiences as the sort of story for this particular song. And I think I think it was about somebody who he was having a form of relationship with, and that person wasn’t out yet. So it is kind of interesting, I think, to consider having that inscription in this video clip with that in mind as well, I guess.
Yentl 15:52 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, the kind of one of the repeated kind of refrains in the chorus is like, tell me you love me in private? And so yeah, I think it’s a very interesting kind of divide between the discussion of love, which has been had to be kept private, because of, potentially someone’s in the closet potentially worried about repercussions, versus this kind of very public discussion of all different types of love that they’re having in Plato’s Symposium at the dinner party where they are treating, you know, a different character at one point says, oh, there are two types of love. There’s like the common love which men have for women, and then there’s the Heavenly love which men have for other men. And so, you know, we’re, we’re even saying at times that like, this kind of same sex attraction, same sex love is like on the highest level here, this is what we should all aspire to, in the in this like, wider kind of piece by Plato. And then yeah, to then have that comparison there between this very public discussion. And then the, “tell me you love me in private”, like this very secretive kind of way that they’re discussing that throughout the lyrics of the music video, I think is a very emotional and very interesting device that we have.
Dr G 17:11 Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. And while you were going into the detail about that, I was also put in mind of the fact that we’ve got this sort of like layering of this tree of knowledge with the ancient Greek philosophical outlook as well. And so there’s this really sort of rich questioning that I think that is brought to the forefront by placing the ancient Greek within that context, because they were all for context. But there is a suggestion over time that symbolism around Christianity has really taken on its own kind of significance. And yet, something like this is bringing those two worlds back together and back in conversation with each other, which I think is absolutely fascinating as well.
Yentl 17:56 Yeah, I completely agree. I think, also, in my undergrad degree, that was the first time that I’d really got the opportunity to study kind of like early Christianity. And I think it’s very interesting to consider, you know, that when we’re talking about specifically kind of like coming into late antiquity, that these two worlds are happening at the same time. And so I think it’s really interesting to discuss, you know, when we have when we talk about, you know, allusions to like John the Baptist, or different kinds of figures like that from, you know, celebrated in the Christian faith, we also see them then being talked about and the similarities to how, you know, we see other Christian persecutions in ancient history and ancient Rome specifically. And yeah, it’s a really interesting kind of overlap, that I think is easily forgotten about, it’s easy to just pin Christianity into like that this is a religion, we don’t really need to study it, because it’s just a belief. It’s just, you know, that kind of religious practice. And so it’s very interesting to them. Consider, especially in early Christianity, and that’s happening in the same time as all this other kind of ancient history. And yeah, I think it’s really interesting to see the two being brought together like that.
Dr Rad 19:13 Yeah, we definitely have a really interesting overlap in the opening sequence of the video, which you could potentially interpret to be taking place in the Garden of Eden. And yet, it’s also littered with all these ruined buildings that are obviously meant to remind us of ancient Greece in ancient Rome. So the layered symbolism that we see here kind of offers the potential to read the garden as a place beyond Christian archetypes. Why do you think this might be important within the scope of Lil Nas X’s work?
Yentl 19:42 So yeah, as we’ve talked about, we have like two equally interesting, I think interpretations of the music video here. Both are equally valid, both are equally important. And you can certainly see a lot of from the kind of references to Christianity there. As this kind of act of reclaiming that as a queer artists, obviously we have seen throughout history sees still see now there is potentially a lot of backlash against the queer community, from religious people from some Christian people, obviously not all that there has been historically some backlash. And so then this acts kind of as an act of reclaiming then to use these symbols associated with Christianity and to use them in this celebration of, you know, the queer experience. But on the other hand, bringing in this kind of more Greco Roman ancient history perspective, I think the depiction of the ruined building is very interesting if you do this kind of deep reading, arguably way too intense analysis that was completely unintentional, but it’s very well within that kind of overall video and beam. So like the two main types of building that we see, there’s this Doric Temple, which is just an artistic type of Temple, and this aqueduct or viaduct. Now, Doric temples, especially in Rome, were associated with masculinity and manhood by particular authors, and disco Vitruvius, who’s like an architect and engineer, that he said, like Ionic tempos are feminine. Doric temples are masculine, direct temples, if you’re going to have a male god has to be in a dark temple, because they’re masculine, and all curvy, little architecture, they’re just strikes narrow, that masculine and manly.
Dr Rad 21:33 Such nonsense! Never heard of it.
Yentl 21:40 So yeah, and then when we see viaducts, they’re kind of a massive part of Roman propaganda, in the like, politics of their expansion there and the empire building, because through bringing water to areas that were previously like, arid, didn’t have water, they thought they had conquered the quote, unquote, savageness of the natural world. And so these kind of massive buildings like acted as this like monument of the symbol of like their victory of civilization over the rest of the world. So through showing these kind of both of these buildings as ruined and destroyed, I think we get this, the start of this motif, or this theme of the destruction of traditional masculinity and manhood, as well as the queer potential for kind of disrupting civilization disrupting social order. And yeah, instead kind of challenging the like political, cultural, societal norms. And so, yeah, this theme of like queer disruption, and the challenge to like hetero masculinity really flows throughout the whole video. And so I think it’s interesting that we see this depicted in the specific ruined buildings that are included within this kind of Garden of Eden, early scene.
Dr G 23:03 Yeah, we get the sense of the ways in which society can be challenged, how it can be overcome. And I think this actually, these ideas feed in really nicely to thinking about Lil Nas X and the intersection of his identities as both being black and queer as an artist, both of which have been historically marginalized. And I’m interested in how this context that he is bringing to the table as an artist is influencing how he might interpret this music video, and its significance.
Yentl 23:38 So to me, I think this is one of the most important parts of the whole music video. See, yeah, Lil Nas X is a black man. And unfortunately, when we see classics being used outside of scholarship, and also traditionally within classical scholarship, it’s often associated with white supremacy or with racism. If you look at any reports of like the alt right or white supremacist rallies in America, you see people with “molon labe” signs, which is like ancient Greek term meaning come and take them, which by them, they mean weapons or in US politics, guns, which distributed to the Spartans. And I mean, speaking of Spartans, like man who did outright love they’re literally everything, the 300 they’ve seen themselves as these kind of hyper masculine macho men fighting against like all effeminate Eastern culture that these like yeah, effeminate foreigners are coming to, like, destroy our culture, I think
Dr G 24:41 Nothing says manhood, like sprayed on abs.
Yentl 24:45 Know exactly, and a bunch of men are naked together holding spears.
Dr Rad 24:49 Yup, that is true masculinity.
Yentl 24:54 I mean, yeah, it’s horrific, but they just love these ancient kind of heroic men. They see like Ancient Greece and Rome as all whites hypermasculine heroic ideal, which let’s be clear, untrue, for so many reasons, every part of that is untrue. So for Lil Nas X to represent himself kind of as a territories figure or this ancient hero, he embodies this ancient heroism as a black man, while he simultaneously also embraces femininity. And I think this really challenges on multiple levels, this hateful, racist rhetoric that is massively associated specifically with ancient Greek warfare and heroes. And so we see Lil Nas kind of reclaim Herakles and these heroes from the hands of the alt right. And he turns this heroic narrative from this, like hyper masculine kind of white call to power into a celebration of Black excellence, femininity and beauty, which is just massively important and powerful. And then kind of on top of that, you have the constant constant references to his queer identity. And the historic presence of queer desires queer relationships, which are solidified by there’s a Latin inscription right at the very end of the music video, which reads, “they condemn what they do not understand”, which is a very, very emotive reference that you can read to, towards, you know, LGBT experiences, LGBTQ plus lives, and this kind of discrimination against them, which is, sadly still kind of present at the moment.
Dr Rad 26:36 Yeah, and I think particularly if we think about the imagery of that potential Hercules/Herakles scene, we probably should mention for people who haven’t seen the video clip yet, although I’m sure they will stop this episode and kind of watch to me that the coloring as well I think is really feminine. The fact that he’s got like, almost like a fairy floss pink wig and yeah, accessories. Yeah.
Yentl 27:03 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Dr Rad 27:05 I mean, if you didn’t if you didn’t know, it was a potential allusion to like the flavors to me. It almost gave like Sofia Coppola “Marie Antoinette” vibes.
Yentl 27:14 Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. Yeah. With a massive tulle, over-the-top hairpieces? Yeah.
Dr Rad 27:22 And the color scheme being almost like candy.
Yentl 27:25 Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Dr Rad 27:30 So, so think about that Herakles scene in particular, obviously, like a key, it’s a key scene in the video to show him under arrest and being led into this building, which, as you’ve noted, seems very sort of Colosseum like, or like an ancient arena of some kind. So I think we could definitely see this a number of ways you could see it as an allusion to Christian persecution under the Romans, particularly when the scene later reveals that Lil Nas X’s in chains before our large crowd, which is seated really high above him, but what do you take away from this particular scene? And how do you see this particular classical illusion operating?
Yentl 28:06 Yeah, I think definitely, you can read this as that. Christians were largely persecuted within this period of Roman history, because they were seen as being kind of other not acting the way they should. Part of this strange almost like sound family vibe, which really threaten the way that society worked at the time, this kind of patriarchal, family-centered norms of society, the idea that Christians were being really threatened that. And so actually, a lot of that backlash really kind of parallels the experience of LGBTQ plus people in today’s society. And so yeah, I think that definitely just acts as a mirror in itself right there. But then, from a classical perspective, we have this parallel to the figure of Herakles, Lil Nas enters wearing what looks like the skin of like a lion, albeit pink, which is how we see Herakles depicted in art. And he’s also got chains similar to kind of the modern concepts that we talked about earlier. But a lot of Herakles’ mythologies are actually very queer in nature. When he’s with the queen of the Amazon to politics, they swap clothes and swap gender roles. So he’s out there like almost in drag, you know, dressed as a woman. And then he also has a massive amount of boyfriends. Plutarch actually says that it will be impossible to name all of his male lovers. But most famously, one of his relationships with this guy called Iolaus. I actually have never said that out loud, I’ve only read that so apologies if I’m saying that wrong. But with this other hero, Plutarch actually says that pairs of male lovers would go to his tomb to pay their respects because of this kind of queer association. So yeah, I think his characterization is heritage is also really plays on this really interesting thing kind of balanced between masculinity and queerness. And all of these questions about traditional heteronormative ideas of manhood and how femininity and sexuality can influence and kind of play with these ideas.
Dr Rad 30:16 Yeah, so against our modern version of Hercules, I think because he is your strong man, Arnold Schwarzenegger type figure. It’s yeah, I think it’s bizarre to most people who haven’t spent much time in sort of the classical world to see him as being queer.
Yentl 30:32 I mean, did The Rock play him at one point, I swear there’s a film?
Dr Rad 30:35 Yes, he did.
Yentl 30:37 I would love to see that and take into account like these, when he goes to the Amazon see him in this little dress, just like doing all the women’s jobs and like not not being annoyed. He doesn’t seem fussed. He just gets on with it.
Dr Rad 30:50 I think The Rock would be up for that.
Yentl 30:52 I think he would be.
Dr Rad 30:53 Yeah, I think he’s up for that.
Yentl 30:55 Yeah, if he listens to your podcast,
Dr Rad 30:58 He definitely does!
Yentl 31:00 I’m sure he does, yeah.
Dr Rad 31:02 That’s where he got the idea for the movie naturally.
Dr G 31:07 I think this actually draws a parallel as well to the other really famous sort of heroic figure from the Greek side of things, which is Achilles, because he also has these moments where he hides at certain points amongst groups of women dresses, takes on the dress of women, and is also reputed to be very close with Patroclus. And that sense of that intense loving relationship between those two men is something that drives the Iliad in many respects. So it’s fair to say, I think that Lil Nas X is drawing upon a really rich tradition of Greek masculinity. And the way that that intersects really clearly and boldly with queer identity.
Yentl 31:56 Yeah, absolutely. And I think in a way that doesn’t necessarily translate to how people might view this kind of heroic, hyper masculine man in the modern day. And I think it’s really important and interesting kind of drawback, because, yeah, all so many of these kinds of heroes have these queer storylines behind them? And yes, I think it’s really powerful, and also a challenge to the idea that when we think of like, a super masculine man, we think are, must have like loads of women, or must be, you know, has to be straight. And so I think it’s a really interesting challenge to be like wellness, like all of these, you know, heroes from Greek myths, that are really also held up as being like, oh, yeah, these are like the best, the strongest, most manly macho man. And so to say, actually, you know, there wasn’t this supposed incompatibility between queerness and femininity, and also being a very strong, very powerful man. So yeah, I think it’s a really important discussion.
Dr Rad 32:58 I mean, there’s six guys, but they’re six guys for all. It actually does make you think when you look at when you unpick all of these examples, and all of these, you know, ways of interpreting the classical world that the alt right throw around, it does make you sort of wonder like, have you studied the classical world at all? started using this so called evidence?
Yentl 33:25 Yeah, it’s even like with the “molon labe” signs like “come and take them”. They seem to like conveniently forget that the Persians did indeed take those. The Persians very successfully defeated. It’s like what you just, yeah. I mean, obviously, they’ve done little to no research whatsoever. No reason.
Dr G 33:45 I feel like they’ve just missed all of the good bits, guys. The Spartans lost, and you can love whoever you want. It’s okay.
Yentl 33:55 Yeah, don’t worry. It’s fine.
Dr Rad 33:57 Look into Spartan marital practices. And you’re like, Yeah, talk about complicated relationships.
Yentl 34:03 Yeah, exactly.
Dr Rad 34:05 And a slight difference between ancient Spartan weaponry and semi automatic weapons.
Dr G 34:17 Well, but you know, getting back to the subject. So in the third section of this video clip for that you’ve mentioned, we have this descent to hell, and it appears to be initially an extension of the arena. If anything, it’s here that it becomes really clear that we’ve got a reference visually to the Colosseum, because it seems like the Colosseum is operating as a portal to another plane of existence. I’m curious about the sort of commentary you see Lil Nas X making about the ancient world in this sort of transition.
Yentl 34:58 Yeah, it’s a really interesting They make part of the music video. And I think, you know, you can read from that, potentially, you know, a lot of people did die in the Colosseum, especially with like Christian persecution. People don’t think that, like, historians don’t really think the whole like fed to the lions thing rarely happened as much as we actually, like. It is said that it happened in kind of modern culture, I don’t think that really happened as much as so you know, people did die here. And so the idea of this being like, on the journey to death really, I think, is a very valid kind of way to look at it. But also, I think it’s particularly interesting if you consider it as part of this heroic narrative that we’ve seen happening kind of throughout the music video. So just after the Coliseum scene, and before he kind of descend down, we see Lil Nas X kind of ascend to what might be seen as like heaven, potentially, or this like paradise. This winged figure appears above him that he can’t make it there. And he falls back down. And we get this very famous, very sexy pole dancing descent into hell. Definitely worth watch if anyone hasn’t seen it already.
Dr Rad 36:12 I only wish I could pole dance like that.
Yentl 36:16 If we consider heroes in ancient Greek tradition, for example, we have this kind of katabasis, or this descent into hell, forming a massive part of their heroic identity, their heroic narratives. We see this, again with Herakles, but also with Odysseus, with Theseus even with Aeneas. So this really emphasizes Lil Nas X’s kind of character is being one of these typical Greco Roman heroes, is really brought into the ranks of all of the heroes that we’ve seen before him. And then after, again, this incredible kind of lap dance to the devil theme, we see Lil Nas X defeat the ruler of hell or of Hades, and he immediately gain once he’s like completed this task, he gains the like wings, these massive wings that he would have needed in order to reach this kind of heaven or paradise that we’ve just seen earlier. So he’s kind of just completed his heroic narrative there, because you’ve gained what he would have needed to be successful at the start. And so I think this aspect of the video can really be read. And yeah, it’s like cementing them as exes character as a classic Greek hero, completing the same kind of narrative arc, and then bringing with that all of the challenges to the heteronormative hypermasculine, white supremacist adoption of Greco Roman heritage that we’ve discussed earlier.
Dr Rad 37:43 I must admit, I will say it still boggles my mind how much has been packed into this short video? Do you have any sense? Because I mean, I know that Yentl and Lil Nas X, you guys are as close as people can be. Do you have any sense whether this all came from him? Or whether this was part of like a creative team he was working with?
Yentl 38:01 I don’t know. I’ve actually tried to look this up, because I wanted to see if there was any ancient historian on the team, because I felt like surely there must have been, but I couldn’t actually find any of the details. But obviously, Lil Nas X listens to your podcast as well.
Dr Rad 38:14 Naturally, naturally, all the greats do.
Yentl 38:17 If he could get in contact with me, and let me know, I’d be very interested. Because yeah, I tried to use that when I was speaking about this topic at a conference. And I couldn’t actually find whether there were historians involved. But I would really like to. I volunteer my services, of course, for later music videos, I’m available.
Dr Rad 38:36 We could all become part of his advisory team.
Yentl 38:41 Yeah, exactly. Yes, I see that as a very real possibility.
Dr Rad 38:47 All he needs to do is listen to this episode, he’ll be like, Oh my god, they’ve been wanting me to contact them. And I was too shy.
Yentl 38:52 Okay.
Dr G 38:53 Get in touch, man. Get in touch. We’re out, we’re ready.
Dr Rad 38:58 Just as a an interesting question, I suppose to sort of wrap everything up. I suppose that by talking about all the challenges that Lil Nas X is posing to some interpretations of like the classical world, and, and all of that kind of stuff that we’ve been, we’ve been talking about, it kind of makes the ancient world sound like this queer paradise where anything goes in terms of your sexuality. I was wondering if maybe we could wrap up with maybe a bit of a chat about about that, and about what we can tell about how people were living their lives and exploring their sexualities in the ancient world.
Yentl 39:34 Yeah, so I think, by no means we should consider ancient Greece and Rome is kind of this utopian paradise, which is very easy to do. We choose specific sources and we look at specific things. But that wasn’t actually the case. And there were a lot of, although in some scenarios, same sex relationships, same sex attraction was considered to be Eat good. And to be honest, like ideal, it was in very, very select situation. So in ancient Greece, we see if there’s an adult man, and a kind of younger, like 14-15 year old boy, then that’s acceptable, because we have this kind of pederasty, this, like erotic relationship. And it’s seen as a way of kind of almost like a social ritual to transition from boys into adult men. But even then it seemed like, the adult man should be very into it, and the boy shouldn’t really be that into it. So it’s very, there are very a lot of restrictions on that. And adult men potentially shouldn’t be in a relationship like that. That’s not proper, if the man is too old. Some sources say like, if the young man has a beard when he’s too old, then that’s it. But then we do have in Plato’s Symposium, you know, one of the characters is saying that people that have this kind of upper level of love, this desire for men will continue on into adulthood, and will have wives and children because they have to, but would rather live with other men by themselves in a fake kind of union, and will be very happy just living with a man just by themselves, they do have the recognition that obviously like this did still happen, even if that wasn’t the ideal way that sexuality should be portrayed. And in ancient Rome, it’s kind of the idea is that the, there is no shame if you’re a man, having sex with anybody else. But if you’re the kind of receiver of the sex, and that is shameful, because that’s being like a woman. And as we all know, women are shameful, it’s literally a word. Men should not be like a woman in any way, because that will be awful and wrong. So yeah, so again, we have this kind of split between what was acceptable, and then the kind of role that then wasn’t acceptable. But then obviously, if you are a powerful person, whatever goes, you know, like when Nero took was married to two different men, one of them, he was, like, took the role of the bride. One, he was like the groom, as we would say, I guess. And you know, he’s the Emperor who’s going to do anything to him, like, he what he says go, you know,
Dr Rad 42:31 Until he gets stabbed, of course.
Yentl 42:38 So we have this whole spectrum of what was considered acceptable, what wasn’t considered acceptable. But then also, we have these kind of pockets of same sex attraction, same sex relationships, like the Sacred Band of Thebes, are this band of warriors that are said to all be in kind of erotic relationships with each other, so that they would fight better. And, as far as I know, there’s not much I haven’t seen a lot of ancient sources saying, like, oh, this was wrong, because they were all men that were fighting together, you know, there are certain areas where it’s considered acceptable. But also, it’s just evidence that queer relationships were happening, and happened, you know, in all kinds of ways, a lot of our sources just come from these main city points, like in Athens, in Rome, whatever. But the ancient world goes so much further than just these kind of hotspots of where a lot of our sources come from. And so I think that what we can take from them is that yeah, there was obviously same sex attraction. People were in queer relationships, and we have from loads of sources talking about even when, you know, a relationship might have started as this kind of socially acceptable pederasty in ancient Greece, they didn’t break up then when the younger one got to a certain age, they just carried on dating. And so yeah, there’s I mean, you just have to read the works of Sappho as well to see that we do have, you know, also romantic relationships or same sex attraction between women occurring and see it written down in different places.
Dr Rad 44:15 Yeah, it is so fascinating when you look at the ancient world, because whilst obviously some of our sexual norms are quite different to the rules that were in place in these different places, I kind of feel like there is one commonality and that power is so often a hallmark of all of our sexual standards or our sexual relationships, it even though it might not play out in exactly the same way, I feel like power always has a role that it always is what people are kind of really concerned about.
Yentl 44:44 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I think also that it’s an important thing that we shouldn’t overlook. Like when certain figures from history are kind of, you know, I went to an exhibition on kind of, like queer love, race. something or a few years ago, and they were kind of celebrating, like Hadrian and Antinous as this kind of beautiful queer relationship, but also like Hadrian was an emperor who was a lot older, and Antinous was like a 16 year old boy. And so it’s like, can we really? Should that be the kind of relationship that we’re celebrating? Was there a lot of agency there? And so I think we definitely can’t look back on this as kind of this paradise of Oh, and it was completely accepting. And, yeah, and it was so forward thinking, because it wasn’t in massive amounts of waves for many, many reasons. And so yeah, while we can see that queer people have always existed, that people have always experienced, same sex attraction, same sex love, we can’t kind of hold this up as like this perfect kind of paradigm of what society should be like, because it was very problematic in so many different ways.
Dr Rad 46:02 Yeah, especially in Rome, because it was often that, you know, like, a man could have sex, as you say, with, with, with most people who were seen as being beneath him. So like his, like slaves or women. But he wouldn’t be able, I don’t think to have sexual relationships with say, like a citizen boy, without that being frowned upon, regardless of the role he was taking.
Yentl 46:25 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so. So yeah, I think it’s very important that we don’t, it can be tempting, obviously, to look back at these figures and see collective ancestry or whatever, you kind of searching for to see that. And it’s definitely valid to, you know, see these examples of queer desire and LGBTQ plus slides. That also I think we need to take it with a pinch of salt, and also be just thinking, okay, yeah, thinking critically about these things as well.
Dr G 46:55 Yeah, there’s that sense of there is both the ideas which is central to the way that we understand the world and drawing upon that history to further deepen our understanding and appreciation of humanity in all of its facets. But then keeping note of that critical lens on particular contexts and how these things are embedded in real worlds and the consequences they have for the people who lived in those periods of time.
Yentl 47:22 Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree more.
Dr Rad 47:24 Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently, because obviously, with pride month, there have been so many episodes of podcasts coming out about Oscar Wilde. And I love Oscar Wilde writing so much. And he obviously studied the classics, and he really adored them. And he did. So he did talk about, you know, Greek ideals of homosexual love and homosexual relationships, and that sort of thing. And it is really tempting to obviously see him as this tragic persecuted victim, which, obviously, I think on so many levels, he was a victim of his context and that sort of thing. But one thing I had forgotten was how many of his relationships were with much younger boys, because he was at he was sort of holding up that Greek sort of plastic ideal in quite a few of his relationships. And it is easy to sort of overlook that kind of aspect of his life as well.
Yentl 48:19 Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, we can’t hold up certain figures. I don’t know what the equivalent I’ve been talking about some in like teaching about, like, not holding up female figures and saying, like, don’t want to, like go boss them, but I don’t know what the equivalent for.
Dr G 48:36 I think it’s “boy boss”.
Yentl 48:38 boy boss – yes. Let’s not boy boss characters as queer heroes. But yeah, and just an important thing with pederasty as well, because I think it can link to and be used in like, certain aspects of like, homophobic rhetoric, the in ancient Greece, also, this age that the boys were when they entered these kind of relationships is the same age that girls were considered ready for marriage. That wasn’t like a specific thing, just because it was a same sex relationship. That was the idea at the time was okay. By the time someone is around 15, they are ready to have a sexual relationship and they are ready to like, either if they’re a girl to be married, if they’re a boy to then begin this transition into becoming a man and then they will marry when they are older. So I think that it’s an important thing to remember that it’s not just that this is to do with it, the fact that it was queer or fact that it was like homoerotic. And I just think that’s an important. That’s an important thing to remember.
Dr Rad 49:36 Definitely. And in fact, that was something that again, come out came out at the time with Oscar Wilde’s trials in that people were some people were highlighting that everyone was getting in such a tizzy about his relationships with men at the time, but they didn’t seem too concerned about the age that women were when they were being, you know, either married or for you Maybe forced into sex work or whatever. So yeah, it’s it’s funny that there Yeah. There’s also that caveat to that particular example as well.
Dr G 50:09 Yeah, I think this conversation has gone in in so many different directions. Now. It’s really like yeah, like, and it’s, I think it opens up the conversation in really important ways. Because it’s like, there is a historical through line for us when we think about how we understand ourselves. And also, like the contextual differences over time as well, that become really those points that you hold on to as well, because it’s like, yeah, as you say, there’s not necessarily a utopia out there in the in the past, but there is ways in which we can utilize the ancient world in the way that like Lil Nas X has done in this music video, to think about and to requestion, some of the values that are on display in the mainstream today.
Yentl 51:01 Yeah, I completely agree. I think the music video just wraps all of this up and really emphasizes the discussions that this can that it can foster about antiquities, sexuality, and also the modern day.
Dr Rad 51:15 Well, hopefully, a lot of the people who have been persuaded by the views of the alt right will be super keen to listen to this episode, and check out Lil Nas X’s work. And so to see the lies that have been fed, the classical way of looking at this particular song, and I must admit, I felt like my mind was really opened up by looking at this particular example, which I don’t think I would have come across, if not for your work, Yentl, so thank you so much.
Yentl 51:42 I’m glad you enjoyed. Yeah, I think everyone should watch the music video. Critical piece of art.
Dr G 51:47 And I think as you say, like every time you look at it, you see more in it. Like, I’ll admit that like Latin is by far more preferred ancient language of ancient Greek and I did not spot the Latin.
Yentl 52:02 Yeah, literally, every single time I watch it, there’s something that I haven’t seen before. Oh, wait. Actually, that’s, maybe that’s a reference to this thing, this very nice, ancient historical fact.
Dr Rad 52:14 Well, people should definitely check out your blog on this particular music video, because I know I remember from when I was reading it, that there’s so many more allusions to episodes in mythology that we haven’t even touched on. I mean, the snake. We haven’t mentioned the snake and, and I mean, there’s so much more. So please go and check out Yentl’s blog. She is the Queer Classicist.
Dr G 52:34 And thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah. And so it’s been an absolute pleasure.
Yentl 52:38 Thank you both for having me. It’s been, yeah, so much fun to chat to you both.
Dr G 52:55 Thank you for tuning in it to this interview episode are The Partial Historians, we want to say a huge shout out, thank you to all of you, our beautiful listeners. And if you’d like to show your love for the show, there’s a few ways you can do it. We would love to read your positive reviews on whichever platform you choose to listen to us on. You can also follow us on our social media – we’re on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Mastodon. You could buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our Patreon crew for early releases. We are so thankful for your listenership and we’ll catch you next time soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Commonwealth of Slaves
Aug 03, 2023
After the kerfuffles of 420 BCE, it’s time for a brand new year or two! In this episode we consider 419 and 418 BCE. These two years are packed with exciting moments as we get to learn about an uprising from below – we’re siding with the slaves!
We recorded in a new location for this episode. So if you hear a little bit of crowd noise in the background that’s all part of the atmosphere of taping out and about.
Episode 140 – The Commonwealth of Slaves
The Slaves are Revolting!
It happens every so often, but in this year there’s a few twists! Whose side are the gods on? Is that the smell of smoke? We consider the representation of enslaved people in the ancient written literary sources that provide us with their annalistic narratives…
As events unfold, we take a moment to explore the nature of bodily punishment and particularly crucifixion in ancient Rome. Where did it come from? When did it come into practice? We consider the details.
Still from the film “Spartacus” (1960) showing the crucifixion of the rebels by Rome. We touch on Spartacus in our consideration of the practice of crucifixion. Note, the fate of the historical Spartacus is not known. Source: No Name Movie Blog
Trouble in the Ranks
It comes as no surprise that the Romans might be facing trouble from their neighbours, but the years 419-418 BCE hold not just trouble without but disagreements between the military tribunes with consular power. How will Rome wrangle their own leaders into line? And will they be able to do it in time to win the day on the battlefield? We delve into the details.
Things to Listen Out For
The Aequians
Considerations of the Italic peoples
What did you say about the Capitol?
The Spartacan Revolt
Blasé Romans
The Tusculums
The Labicani
Coriolanus!
Our Players 419 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Agrippa Menenius T. f. Agripp. N. Lanatus (Pat), previously consul in 439
Publius Lucretius Hosti f. – n. Tricipitinus (Pat)
Spurius Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus (Pat)
Gaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat), thought to be previously consul in 427
Our Players 418 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Lucius Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat), previously consul in 437, 429; and previously military tribune with consular power in 433, 424
Marcus Papirius L. f. -. n. Mugillanus (Pat)
Gaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat), previously consul in 427, military tribune with consular power in the previous year 419
Dictator
Quintus Servilius P. f. Sp. n. Priscus Fidenas (Pat)
Master of the Horse
Gaius Servilius Q. f. C. n. Axilla (Pat) – upgraded from military tribune with consular power!
Censor
Lucius Papirius L. f. -. n. Mugillanus (Pat). Previously consul in 427 and military tribune with consular power 422.
Our Sources
Dr G reads Fasti Capitolini, Fasti Minores (CIL 1(2).1,p 55, no.1), Dionysius of Halicarnassus 5.61; 8.19; 12.6.5-7; Diodorus Siculus 13.2.1; 13.6.7; Frontinus Stratagems 2.8.8
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.45-46
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Sound Credits
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of BBC Beta.
A map showing regions south and east of Rome including a possible location for Labicum – just north east of Tusculum! Other important sites include Tusculum in the Alban Hills to the south-east of Rome. Image credits to ColdEel and Ahenobarbus. Source: Wikimedia Commons.
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for clarity!
Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:30 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.
Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:56 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. And I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:05 And I am your other host Dr Rad. Welcome.
Dr G 1:08 Welcome, welcome one and all, we are tracing Rome’s history from the foundation of the city. And it’s exciting times. It’s been exciting times for a while. It’s always an exciting episode when we return to Rome,
Dr Rad 1:21 I think, I think so. So last time, Dr. G, we were in the midst of 420 BCE.
Dr G 1:28 Ah, it was a great year.
Dr Rad 1:30 It was a great year because we actually got to talk about a woman It has been so long since we mentioned a woman.
Dr G 1:36 We’ve been going through a real dry patch with ladies.
Dr Rad 1:40 Which is not something you want to hear.
Dr G 1:42 No, no as a lady that is not not a great status quo. So we touched on the life and times of the Vestal Virgin Postumia. We did and she got herself into a little bit of trouble for having a sense of humor and a sense of style.
Dr Rad 1:58 I mean, if they’re not a criminal offense, I don’t know what is.
Dr G 2:03 With the danger of live burial on the table. I think she changed her tune and adjusted her behaviour.
Dr Rad 2:09 It seems like she backed down once she realized just how seriously they took this kind of stuff.
Dr G 2:16 Imagine trying to have a personality in ancient Rome, and now…
Dr Rad 2:20 That’s not what being a Vestal’s about.
Dr G 2:22 Ouch.
Dr Rad 2:22 Yeah. Luckily, she did escape live burial. I mean, that was my real concern that she was actually going to be buried alive for her raunchy dressing. And her jokes.
Dr G 2:36 Yeah, tragic times, tragic times. But no, all is safe. And well, Postumia goes on to live. So she’s presumably still alive as we run into the year. That was 419.
Dr Rad 2:48 Yeah, I know. And we’ve also got, obviously a bit of a patrician-plebeian and drama that’s been happening in that we also had the trial of Sempronius.
Dr G 2:55 Yes, well, that’s what happens when you run away from a battle.
Dr Rad 2:58 Well, this is the thing right? Our sources, as we discovered last week, made out like the tribunes were attacking him because they wanted to vent they rage against his family, and they couldn’t vent it against the person who they felt actually deserved it at that point in time, who was allegedly someone arranging fake elections and not allowing the plebeians to get through and so they decided to target the other Sempronius guy Sempronius military general from a few years before, but if you actually think about it, he deserved to be prosecuted. Because he had done a terrible job.
Dr G 3:36 It’s true.
Dr Rad 3:37 Yeah.
Dr G 3:38 Yeah, look 420, what a time.
Dr Rad 3:41 Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, lots of legal action really. So we really need to insert the doo-dum
Dr G 3:49 I see what you did that more. I heard what you did.
Dr Rad 3:54 Anyway, but that sounds so yeah, it was really all about the legal stuff and 420 but now I think we’re probably ready to move into 419 BCE.
Dr G 4:26 It’s 419 BCE
Dr Rad 4:29 Certainly is. Now let me guess, let me guess. You don’t have any material from Dionysius of Halicarnassus?
Dr G 4:39 Oh well on that front, you’d be mistaken. It’s not that I have a lot of sources though. And it’s not like I have a lot of Dionysius of Halicarnassus.
Dr Rad 4:50 Okay.
Dr G 4:51 But let’s start with our main players for this year.
Dr Rad 4:56 Let’s do it. Now. I think very excitingly, we have military tribunes with consular power.
Dr G 5:01 We do, and we’ve got four of them.
Dr Rad 5:04 Ooh.
Dr G 5:04 Let me introduce you to our cast of illustrious gentleman.
Dr Rad 5:08 Please do.
Dr G 5:09 We have Agrippa Menenius Lanatus – previously, apparently, consul in 439, which was a long time ago!
Dr Rad 5:20 Who can remember that long ago that was what five years ago now?
Dr G 5:24 Notable for the issue with Spurius Maelius.
Dr Rad 5:29 Ooo, okay yes, I am remembering this guy now. Yes, of course. How could I forget 439?
Dr G 5:37 Yeah, it was a big year.
Dr Rad 5:38 Yeah.
Dr G 5:38 We also have Publius Lucretius Hosti Tricipitinus
Dr Rad 5:46 Bloody hell, what a name
Dr G 5:48 Tri-cip-i-tinus
Dr Rad 5:52 I have another version which is I think TricipiTINUS
Dr G 5:56 Oooo.
Dr Rad 5:57 Yeah, I know but who knows? I think basically we can say that three is a part of that name.
Dr G 6:04 I think we can and there are too many ‘i’s for me as an English speaker to be able to handle
Dr Rad 6:08 Yeah, too many.
Dr G 6:08 Which is why I struggle with Italian as well. This guy seems to be new – no mention of him in previous years.
Dr Rad 6:15 I think we’d remember that many syllables.
Dr G 6:17 Look, I’d have trouble every single time as well. I keep tripping over his name. Third off the ranks is Spurius Nautius Rutilus.
Dr Rad 6:31 Yep. Yep.
Dr G 6:33 Also new.
Dr Rad 6:35 I remember I remember Nautius before I feel like I’ve heard that.
Dr G 6:38 Yeah, I like Spurius Nautius. I feel like that’s the nice companion to Spurius Furius.
Dr Rad 6:43 Yeah. Spurius Nautius is just a little bit camp.
Dr G 6:47 He goes to all the parties.
Dr Rad 6:47 He’s like, Oh, giiirl.
Dr G 6:52 The kind of man you want to be friends with.
Dr Rad 6:54 Exactly, exactly.
Dr G 6:55 And last but definitely not least, Gaius Servilius Axilla.
Dr Rad 7:01 Ooh. Now that is an unusual name. But again, I feel like we have maybe come across that before.
Dr G 7:06 We have – previously consul in 427.
Dr Rad 7:09 There you go.
Dr G 7:09 And is about to start a really stellar hattrick as military tribune with consular power – this is the year that it begins. So that’s some foreshadowing for everybody.
Dr Rad 7:23 Now, I’d like to start with a quote, if I may. Oh, unless you have any more magistrates?
Dr G 7:27 No, no, I think that’s it.
Dr Rad 7:29 I didn’t think so. You just looked at me like, “wait, there are more magistrates.” I was like, “Are there? Did I miss it?”
Dr G 7:35 No, there’s only four.
Dr Rad 7:36 Okay, so my translation of Livy has great sentence, I think for kicking off 419 BCE: “It was a year remarkable, thanks to the good fortune of the Roman people, for a great danger, but not a disaster”.
Dr G 7:51 Wow. Livy’s setting up that sense of suspense and mystery really early on.
Dr Rad 7:56 Yeah, but also letting you know that it’s going to be okay. I think like in the grand scheme of things.
Dr G 8:00 Phew – okay, for whom, though? I feel like Livy is a bit pro-patrician really.
Dr Rad 8:05 A bit? Yes, I think you would be correct in it. So I do have a bit of a story about some slaves, Dr. G. Should I tell it to you or do you have some?
Dr G 8:17 I would love that.
Dr Rad 8:18 Okay, so what Livy, I think, he’s referring to here is that we actually have a bit of a conspiracy from below.
Dr G 8:27 Oh, no, not conspirosity?
Dr Rad 8:29 Yeah. Yeah. So the slaves have this plot. And it’s just the slaves. Like, I presume that means every single slave, but obviously, why get into specifics, when it’s coming to the lower classes. They have a plot to set Rome on fire from various points. Now, that’s not because they’re actually trying to set room on fire. Stay with me.
Dr G 8:52 That is an accidental side part?
Dr Rad 8:54 It really is. The idea is that the fires are a mere distraction, Dr. G, because the idea is that the Roman citizens would therefore be sort of pulled in different directions all over the city and kind of to the outskirts of the city, because this is where the fires would be happening. They’d be trying to save their houses. They’re trying to put out the fire. The slaves would be taking over control of the Citadel and the Capitol using an armed force. It’s an evil plan!
Dr G 9:26 Well, that’s very exciting. Okay, all right. I I’m not sure how to necessarily feel about that. There is some correlation in Dionysius of Halicarnassus.
Dr Rad 9:38 Really?
Dr G 9:39 My man’s back! For one show only.
Dr Rad 9:43 Well, I have two more details to tell you about that. Should I tell you about it?
Dr G 9:46 Yeah, go for it.
Dr Rad 9:46 Okay. So, as Livy alluded to, this is a great danger to the city, but it did not end in disaster. Because Jupiter was looking out for his people. That’s right. Jupiter made sure that the Romans did not suffer and the slaves did not succeed. Now, he then tells me that there is evidence gathered from some of the participants of this plot. So a couple of the slaves basically informed on what was happening. And it allowed everybody else to be arrested, rounded up, interrogated and punished
Dr G 10:24 Class traitors? No!
Dr Rad 10:26 Yeah, well, I Okay. This is where it gets really interesting. He actually says that the informants were given 10,000 pounds of bronze and their freedom.
Dr G 10:36 Wow.
Dr Rad 10:36 Yeah, which I actually, I didn’t think that the slaves would actually be treated that generously, I kind of thought that the Romans would see that as just something that they should do. Because you know, they owed it to their masters like maybe freedom, maybe manumission. Sure. But giving them Yeah, money, I wouldn’t have actually seen that coming. And Livy’s actually even a bit dismissive about the amount they’re given. He said, this passed for wealth back then. A pittance now.
Dr G 11:05 I think it’s one of those things where, presumably what the patricians are attempting to encourage here is for more slaves to come forward more often. Before these sorts of conspiracies really get off the ground.
Dr Rad 11:22 True. And I mean, you know, if this has anything to go by, it’s working for them.
Dr G 11:28 We’ve set the precedent. And now we’ll see how we go.
Dr Rad 11:31 And I feel like this is really intriguing. I mean, what a, what a treat for us, in a sense, because last episode, we got to talk about a woman, we haven’t been able to do that for a while. Now we’re able to talk about slavery, because we haven’t really talked about slaves very much.
Dr G 11:44 Yeah enslaved people don’t tend to get a lot of currency in our source material at this point in time, but the ancient world is really foundationally built on the exploitation of human labor. And there’s no doubt that it’s, well, maybe there is doubt, it seems reasonable, that the Roman population may even be outnumbered by enslaved people at this point in time.
Dr Rad 12:11 It’s, it’s so hard to figure out, isn’t it? Yeah. Because generally, we associate slavery and Rome, I think, in that period, when the Romans are truly taking part in these sort of large scale wars of conquest. Now, lately, even though we have seen the Romans taking part, in a lot of warfare, as we’ve talked about, with our expansion scores, it’s not really about adding territory, you know, of late, like, there’s been the odd time when they’ve added a bit of territory in like, the last 100 years that we’ve talked about. But generally, it’s been more about, you know, either putting those people in that place or defending Rome from an attack, it hasn’t really been about adding territory. So they’re not really, you know, expanding their control right now. certainly nowhere near on the scale of that they’re going to, in the well, I say, the not too distant future, but God knows, probably 10 years away.
Dr G 13:02 Hundreds and hundreds of years from now.
Dr Rad 13:06 And that’s I think, when we tend to think of them having slaves, because obviously, one of the easier ways to get slaves is to conquer a place and take the people that have managed to survive the conflict and make them your slave population.
Dr G 13:19 I think the important part here is, as you know, we’re dealing with things that are very close to home geographically. So the slaves that are currently in Rome at this point in time, these are all people from the surrounding areas, they’re all Italic peoples or Etruscans. And that’s just going to continue to expand as Rome continues its expansion. Yeah, it’s not sure bet for Roman at this point in time, that’s pretty clear.
Dr Rad 13:49 For sure. And I mean, the thing is, as well, you have to assume that the slave population is being fed through other avenues. I mean, it’s so hard to know, because we really don’t have much information on slavery in this time period. A lot of what we think we know about slavery comes from later time periods. But obviously, you could become enslaved through debt. We talked about that. That’s obviously one of the things concern the Romans themselves, in that, you know, debt bondage, and then also being sold into slavery because of debts is a huge year has been a huge issue at various points.
Dr G 14:20 Yeah, it’s a thing. And we also have seen them capturing out and about, and so there might be like prisoner exchange and things like that going on a lot. But there is also definitely enslavement of people when cities sort of stand up to Rome for too long. Rome gets jack of that they’ve raised the city and they take people, slaves.
Dr Rad 14:41 Yeah, we definitely had mentioned that. And then of course, we can’t rule out the possibility that even at this early time period, you have maybe parents giving up children that they can’t support. You know, if you have too many children, then you could potentially expose them and I don’t mean that You’re unnecessarily thinking that they’re going to die from exposure, but as in there might be left for people to take. And that’s one way of also getting slaves. I think it’s a less common way of doing it. But it is a possibility.
Dr G 15:13 Yeah, I don’t know that we’ve got good evidence in this time period.
Dr Rad 15:16 We definitely don’t. Yeah. But for later on, we do have some evidence of that happened. And so it’s like, well, maybe that’s what’s happening some of the time. Yeah, we don’t really know.
Dr G 15:26 Yeah. Bring out your children. Yeah.
Dr Rad 15:30 It’s just yeah
Dr G 15:31 Have they misbehave this week? Are you at your wit’s end? Get a great price on the open market?
Dr Rad 15:38 They’re free!
Dr G 15:40 Please, just take them!
Dr Rad 15:41 Just take them, I can’t handle it anymore.
Dr G 15:44 We are not suggesting by any means that you should enslave your children. Yeah. So Dionysius of Halicarnassus has a lot of parallels. I’ve got one fragment from Book 12, part 6, sections 5 to 7. He talks about three of the military tributes with consular power, being involved in the discovery of the plot.
Dr Rad 16:09 Oooo.
Dr G 16:09 Yes. So it seems that it comes to their attention – to the highest magistracy. And that it is being led by a commonwealth of slaves. So there’s some sort of like, you know, class unity going on?
Dr Rad 16:23 Yeah.
Dr G 16:24 Get together.
Dr Rad 16:25 The commonwealth of slaves.
Dr G 16:26 Yes. Get together. Look after your brothers and sisters. And this idea of planning to set fires across the city. Yeah, definite parallel with the aim ultimately of, as you say, seizing the Capitol. And if they can do that, that is a sense in which Rome falls at that point? Yes. Like they they are in a position of power. They’re on the biggest hill. It’s the defensive structure par excellence. Since the beginning of the Republic, it’s the one that everybody cares about. Yeah. So if you didn’t take the Capitol and the Citadel that’s on that hill, more power to you – Rome’s yours!
Dr Rad 17:05 Well, we have seen that before, not by slaves per se. But remember, when we had that there was an invasion…
Dr G 17:10 I was gonna say the Etruscans do the sneaky invasion, where they were like, we’re just gonna cross this little bridge here. And we’re on the Capitol.
Dr Rad 17:17 Yeah.
Dr G 17:18 And Rome fights back, and they managed to win the day in the end. But that was a while back now. And they haven’t really had this sort of problem for a while. So this would be, it would be amazing if the enslaved alliance could pull this off. They don’t seem to though.
Dr Rad 17:37 No, it’s sad.
Dr G 17:39 Now, the thing that struck me as really quite interesting about this, like, in addition, I’ve got this idea of there are two informants. And they win their freedom as a result of informing against their comrades. And they also receive 1000 denarii. From the public treasury. Oh, okay. So I don’t know how that figures with your figure. Ancient economy, it’s all over the shop.
Dr Rad 18:06 I was gonna say. Yeah, that’s,
Dr G 18:09 I have to do some calculations and think about that.
Dr Rad 18:11 Yeah, I think Livy’s given it to me in like the asses system, which is the old school system.
Dr G 18:19 Which is fair enough. But I don’t know what the equivalent and the type of denarii have not been specified. So, I mean, are we talking silver or?
Dr Rad 18:29 Like, it’s clearly far too much maths.
Dr G 18:32 Too much maths and too much money.
Dr Rad 18:34 Exactly. That’s gonna give it away.
Dr G 18:36 Yeah. So. But what happens is that the ringleaders are discovered through the informants. Yes. And they are then scourged and led away to be crucified.
Dr Rad 18:48 Oh, okay. So Livy just told me that they were arrested and punished. He doesn’t get specific with the punishments. But you know, what? Doesn’t surprise me about the crucifixion thing? Because that would be the kind of punishment I think you would expect.
Dr G 19:02 Well, this is where I went down a rabbit hole. Then I was like Roman crucifixion. What do we know? And when do we know it?
Dr Rad 19:08 Yeah. Like when did it start? I mean, it is something that you would use for people who were like traitors, right?
Dr G 19:12 Definitely. Yeah. And obviously for writers like Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Livy’s. The big example is Spartacus.
Dr Rad 19:20 I was gonna say, I mean, I didn’t want to be the one to bring it up. Not that he himself was crucified, I should say, that’s a Kirk Douglas thing. We don’t know what happens to Spartacus, he might have been crucified, but he might not have.
Dr G 19:37 No, but what we do have is the source from Appian. And Appian talks about what happens in the Spartacan revolt after the force is defeated, essentially by the Romans.
Dr Rad 19:49 Oh yeah, the survivors are crucified.
Dr G 19:51 Yeah, and apparently Crassus rounds up about 6000 survivors and you’ve got this horrific imagery of them being crucified along the road from Capua to Rome.
Dr Rad 20:02 Yeah, it would be bleak. I mean, I can’t I honestly can’t picture 6000 people on crosses,
Dr G 20:09 I don’t really want to. But mathematically, I wonder how far apart the crucifixion is have to be. Anyway, that is just a matter for mathematics, which I’m not going to delve into.
Dr Rad 20:19 I don’t know why you keep going down these mathematic paths. Why bring them up? I can’t solve them for you.
Dr G 20:24 I don’t like maths. I don’t do maths. It’s bad enough that we have years that have numbers. So crucifixion, the big sort of ticket example that our source material probably thinking about and having a heads is that Spartacan revolt. But that doesn’t tell us anything about when crucifixion might have begun in the Roman world, because clearly, it wasn’t a surprise, then.
Dr Rad 20:49 No, but I but I feel like it is something that I feel like there is a sense that it is something you would only do you know, it had to be that it was like a weighty punishment it was wasn’t that you were hanging out left, right and center to just anybody who annoys you or anything.
Dr G 21:06 Wow, to imagine like thinking about it. Well, they’re crucifying me so I must be special.
Dr Rad 21:11 Well, no, no like that. But I just mean that. I think sometimes I guess because of the association of crucifixion with Jesus. I feel like sometimes people think, “Oh, it was so cruel and barbaric”, which it was, but that they might have been handing crucifixions out like, a lot more often than I think they maybe were.
Dr G 21:29 It’s possible. Yeah. There’s also the sort of broader context of the ancient Mediterranean to think about and this is part of where I was sort of going with, with some of this because yeah, corporeal punishment is, by no means unusual in the ancient world. It’s something that happens a lot. Even the scourging process that happens to these characters in 419. Prior to the crucifixion is corporeal violence. You know, they’re beaten, essentially, until they almost can’t handle it anymore.
Dr Rad 22:01 Yeah. And that’s, that’s with rods as well. Not just with fists, which you honestly you wouldn’t do because it would hurt you as well as hurting the person being punished.
Dr G 22:08 So scourging – being beaten with rods – sometimes that’s enough to kill the person. Sometimes they’re scourged to death. That doesn’t seem to be the case in this example. But if we’re talking about the broader Mediterranean, this idea of impalement in various ways, the puncturing of major organs as a way to elicit pain and suffering. Fixing people to stakes is something that has a variety of uses, through sources that come through from Mesopotamia and Egypt and Greece.
Dr Rad 22:41 So when you say stakes, so we’re talking like large stakes, like body sized stakes?
Dr G 22:46 Like T-bone steaks?
Dr Rad 22:49 Delicious. No, no, I mean, yeah, like, are we talking like when I think of stakes, I think I think of like, garden size stakes.
Dr G 22:55 Oh, you’re thinking like, like the vampire moment where the stake is going through the heart?
Dr Rad 23:00 Maybe? I mean, I just I don’t think it’s something large. I guess it’s my point. Are we talking about like, fixed into a stake?
Dr G 23:05 Yeah.
Dr Rad 23:06 Like a human sized stake? Okay.
Dr G 23:08 Yeah, large stakes, fixing people to the stake.
Dr Rad 23:10 Gotcha.
Dr G 23:11 Yeah. Now, that is slightly different from crucifixion. But you can see how they’re heading in that direction.
Dr Rad 23:17 Oh, they’re going there. Yeah.
Dr G 23:18 Yeah. And so the Romans, they’re not outliers in terms of corporal violence in terms of the ancient world. They do take it to new heights, simply because they ended up being so dominant in the region, I think, so they gain this reputation, which others don’t have the opportunity. Terrible though that might be.
Dr Rad 23:37 Oh, no, I mean, let’s face it. They’re also concerned about law and order, and loyalty, which I mean, as you say, anyone probably would be in their position, but I do feel like they’re particularly equipped for. That’s just something so bureaucratic.
Yes.
Yes. And they militaristic,
Dr G 23:57 They’re militaristic, they’re legalistic, and they’re hugely superstitious. It’s not a great combo. So we don’t really have any firm idea about when crucifixion comes into, like the Roman sort of practice. But they are sort of drawing on a much broader context of this kind of corporeal violence, which involves this kind of stuff. So they’re not the first. They won’t be the last.
Dr Rad 24:24 Is this our first mention of crucifixion as punishment?
Dr G 24:27 That’s what I was trying to recall.
Dr Rad 24:30 And you didn’t go back and listen to all of our previous episodes?
Dr G 24:33 I was just about to say, but we’ve been doing this podcast 10 years. And you know what, I can’t remember what I said yesterday.
Dr Rad 24:45 You know what, honestly, I’m digging deep here. I really feel like we haven’t mentioned crucifixion before on this show. Apart from obviously doing Spartacus, which is even though we’ve done an earlier episode, it’s later in time.
Dr G 25:00 Yeah, it’s out of the chronological sequence. I’m not sure. I’m not going to put money on it, because I don’t trust my memory to that degree. But I felt like it was something when it came up in the source materials like, Oh, this is something that that is worth sort of doing a little bit of digging into.
Dr Rad 25:15 Yeah, like, I feel like it’s been mostly like the classic punishments. We’ve definitely had people being, you know scourged before we’ve had people being scourged to death before. Certainly that, but yeah, I feel like this might be the first time that it’s come up.
Dr G 25:31 Mm hmm.
Dr Rad 25:33 We’re open to corrections on this point.
Dr G 25:36 Rome – entering a whole new phase of violence.
Dr Rad 25:38 Super fans, to the archives!
Dr G 25:42 And so that’s pretty much all I have, okay, or 419 BCE, the rest of my source material is essentially different fragmented Fasti.
Dr Rad 25:52 Okay.
Dr G 25:53 And that just sort of confirms the names that we’ve already got.
Dr Rad 25:56 I might be able to piece some things together for you. Look, I don’t have a huge amount of additional detail. This slave conspiracy is definitely the headliner of this particular year. But I do have a bit of military action. Oh, yeah.
Dr G 26:08 Hello.
Dr Rad 26:08 So the Aequians once again enter the story. I mean, these guys have been quiet for a little while and all sudden, they’re just everywhere.
Dr G 26:14 I think they were just waiting for the Volscians to get off their high horse, and then they could sweep in for the victory.
Dr Rad 26:20 Perhaps Perhaps. So the Aequians are apparently gearing up for conflict again. Now, geographically, Dr. G, can you remind us where the Aequians are?
Dr G 26:31 Well, they come from the sort of south-east-ish region of Rome.
Dr Rad 26:36 Yeah. Now I actually did, because this is a shorter year, I actually did try and look into the Aequians a little bit.
Dr G 26:43 Who are these people?
Dr Rad 26:44 I know, the verdict seems to be that we really don’t know much about them.
Dr G 26:49 This confirms everything that we’ve talked about so far.
Dr Rad 26:51 Yeah, there are some archaeological remains, which I think you’ve talked about before, you know, we’ve got some fortifications in eastern Latium. So obviously, in this region, were we expecting, as you say, in the area we be expecting, which tells us I suppose that they were somebody was there, somebody was there, and they were trying to defend themselves, I suppose. Hints such military conflict, which is confirmed by our written sources, perhaps. But, yeah, we really don’t know much about these people.
Dr G 27:23 In the same way that we don’t know heaps about the Volscians.
Dr Rad 27:26 Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 27:27 But I mean, there, there are definitely groups in and around Rome.
Dr Rad 27:31 Yes. Well, I think that this, bringing up the Aequians, again, you know, Rome having to deal with like military action again, I think that this whole episode, kind of reinforces what we’ve said before about this potentially false narrative that we’re being presented in terms of the way that the Roman state developed, in the sense that military tributes with consular power – if such an office did exist – it seems that it is far more likely that it came about out of necessity, because you couldn’t just have two guys if one of them needs to be with the armed forces. And one of them needs to be in the city. Because if you’re facing multiple enemies, or you know, you’re, you’re being attacked from multiple directions, you need more guys. And so it’s it does seem likely that this position, if it exists, at this point in time exists because Rome is potentially facing a lot more conflict than it has previously. But anyway. And that’s because there is a new enemy.
Dr G 28:27 Uh oh.
Dr Rad 28:28 Yeah. On top of the Aequians. And I love the way Livy’s says he says the Romans hear from reliable sources.
Dr G 28:36 I’m just raising my eyebrows for everybody listening at home raising my eyebrows “reliable sources”?
Dr Rad 28:42 Yeah.
Dr G 28:42 So who’s Livy gone to?
Dr Rad 28:45 The word on the street, Dr. G’s, and there’s some new enemies in town. And they’re the Labicani.
Dr G 28:52 Oh, yes. They are gonna come up for me next year.
Dr Rad 28:55 Okay. Well, I think there is a bit of blending happening at this point in time, which is what’s been happening to me a lot in the last decade that there’s a bit of confusion sometimes about when exactly something’s happening, but
Dr G 29:07 What’s even going on?
Dr Rad 29:08 Yeah, exactly. But these guys are apparently teaming up with Rome’s more traditional enemies. I presume that means people like the Aequians
Dr G 29:18 Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, new enemy enters the ring.
Dr Rad 29:20 Yeah, and again, we don’t know much about these people. I really did try and find some information about them. But it seems that all we really know is that they’re also from somewhere in Latium.
Dr G 29:31 Oh, I’ll tell you all about them… next year.
Dr Rad 29:34 Okay. I’ve got potentially a location of somewhere near the Alban Hills as where they’re from, but I don’t really know if that’s true. Anyway, so the Romans are actually kind of blase about this whole situation because I like the Aequians – those guys – we fight them every year. I mean, you know, just say those same are right and I’m like too true Romans, too true.
Dr G 30:01 Send out the force do what you need to do. And then we’ll go home.
Dr Rad 30:05 Yeah. But they are concerned about these new enemies in that I think they want to initiate contact, establish relations. So they send off some envoys.
Dr G 30:15 Oh, that’s nice. “Hi! Are you trying to kill us? Because if you are, we will crush you.”
Dr Rad 30:23 So they send out these envoys, the envoys don’t get the response that they’re hoping for?
Dr G 30:31 Well, there’s a surprise.
Dr Rad 30:34 Yeah, for the Labicani are somewhat non-committal. It seems like they don’t want to fully say yes, we are going to come for you. But they also don’t want to say no, we’re not so…
Dr G 30:47 “Yeah, look, you know, I’m just, you know, I’m feeling the way I feel and I’m just gonna have to go with my vibes. So guys, I don’t really have an answer for you right now. But come back next week with your army.”
Dr Rad 30:56 Yeah, and this is when Spurius Nautius’ like, “Giiiirl”. So yeah, that definitely, I would say that yeah, they’re preparing for war, but they’re not quite ready yet. So they’re just playing for time.
Dr G 31:08 How coy.
Dr Rad 31:09 Indeed. So the Roman say, Okay, fine. You see what you’re doing here? They turn to they’re good friends, the Tusculans, the most adorable people in this region.
Dr G 31:18 Awww.
Dr Rad 31:18 I know. And they say to the Tusculans, “Can you just keep an eye on this? Watch them?”
Dr G 31:25 I don’t trust those guys.
Dr Rad 31:26 Not for a second and that’s where 419 ends for me with the Tusculans watching the Labicani.
Dr G 31:33 Getting out their small – but very inefficient because they don’t have the technology yet – spyglasses.
Dr Rad 31:38 Exactly, putting on monocles, like that’s going to make any difference.
Dr G 31:42 Wearing their moustaches as they creep through the undergrowth like, “No one will ever know it’s us.”
Dr Rad 31:47 “Quick. We need some trench coats.” So that’s where it ends up for me. So I agree that we’re going to hear more of the Labicani in 418 BCE.
Dr G 32:22 Turning over my notes.
Dr Rad 32:24 Okay, so, before we get into the action, we have far more magistrates to deal with, I think this year, Dr. G.
Dr G 32:31 Oh, it’s a confusing time in Rome done its usual and started with some magistrates, thrown them all out, replaced them with some others and hoped for the best.
Dr Rad 32:39 It’s very confusing .Yes, yes. All right. What tell me about the more traditional ones first.
Dr G 32:44 We have three military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad 32:49 Correct. I don’t know why I’m doubting you, Sorry.
Dr G 32:53 Excuse me, I did my research. So first of all, Lucius Sergius Fidenas – very illustrious so-and-so. You might have heard of him before.
Dr Rad 33:04 I believe that he got that special last name from conquering Fidenae. Or taking part – actually no..
Dr G 33:13 Or being related to somebody who did that?
Dr Rad 33:14 Yeah, true. True. Yeah.
Dr G 33:16 Previously consul in 437 and 429.
Dr Rad 33:19 He is the guy! If he was caught on the 437 he is the guy.
Dr G 33:22 It’s him.
Dr Rad 33:22 It is him. It is the original, the original and the best.
Dr G 33:29 And previously military tribune with consular power in 433 and 424.
Dr Rad 33:35 The last couple of decades have been good to him.
Dr G 33:37 Yeah, look so illustrious. This guy so many magistracies under his belt.
Dr Rad 33:41 Well, Fidenae It’s just such a pain in the arse, or at least it used to be so having a role in bringing them to heel.
Dr G 33:48 Yeah, so we got we got this guy. We also have Marcus Papirius Mugillanus.
Dr Rad 33:54 Hmmm a name I’ve definitely heard before.
Dr G 33:56 But this guy is new to our list.
Dr Rad 33:59 He is new, yeah, but he’s from a family I’ve heard before. I’ve definitely heard of the guy before.
Dr G 34:02 Yeah. And I think we’ve had some Mugillanii as well.
Dr Rad 34:05 Such an unattractive name. It reminds me actually of like, every time I hear it, I think of a really meaty Italian stew, which I like but the name I don’t like.
Dr G 34:18 And it’s one of those names that ends with anus. So it’s always a bit of – a bit of a killer. Yeah. So He’s new. Congratulations, Mugillanus, let’s hope that it goes well for you. And then we have Gaius Servilius Axilla on his second consecutive military tribunate with consular power.
Dr Rad 34:43 Slightly unusual, slightly unusual.
Dr G 34:45 Yeah, he’s in the middle of a streak.
Dr Rad 34:47 Mm hmm. Now do we want to talk about the other magistrates or do we want to introduce them?
Dr G 34:52 Well, I think it’s worth introducing. Mostly because this is gonna give you a foreshadowing of how this year is gonna go.
Dr Rad 35:02 Foreshadowing, foreshadowing.
Dr G 35:04 We have a dictator!
Dr Rad 35:07 Yes.
Dr G 35:09 It is Quintus Servilius Priscus Fidenas.
Dr Rad 35:12 So related potentially? No.
Dr G 35:15 Well, I mean, I think they seem to have gotten the Fidenas cognomen. Probably through maybe similar military prowesses.
Dr Rad 35:25 I know I said it and then I’m like, wait, wait a minute. It’s not in the right place for them to be related.
Dr G 35:29 All of their names though. They’re nomens and things like that suggests that these come from very different families. So there’s clearly a legacy of issues with Fidenae that are coming through.
Dr Rad 35:42 We know we can see it. Yeah, we can see it in the names.
Dr G 35:44 Yeah. And then we also have the master of the horse
Dr Rad 35:47 Naturally, the dictator’s sidekick. He’s the Robin to his Batman, if you will.
Dr G 35:53 And it’s an upgrade for our man who’s on a his streak Gaius Servilius Axilla.
Dr Rad 35:59 He’s just raking it in.
Dr G 36:03 He’s on his horse, and he’s ready to go. Yeah. And there are also censors this year. One of whom we have the name of.
Dr Rad 36:12 Who is someone we’ve already talked about?
Dr G 36:14 Yeah. Oh, is it? No, I don’t think it is. It’s somebody different.
Dr Rad 36:19 Oh, really? Okay, let me redo that. Then. Censors you say?
Dr G 36:22 I’m so glad you asked. Lucius Papirius Mugillanus – another Mugillanus, but a different one.
Dr Rad 36:31 A different one.
Dr G 36:32 Yeah.
Dr Rad 36:33 Okay. Confusing.
Dr G 36:34 Yeah. Probably brothers. I mean, they’ve got to be related. The only difference is the praenomen.
Dr Rad 36:39 That’s why I got the Yeah, that’s why I was confused. I was like, Wait a second Papirius, Italian stew, man. What are you doing back here? How can you be serving two offices at once?
Dr G 36:50 You do what you gotta do. This suggests that the Romans are not only counting the population for taxation and various other social cultural purposes, but there’s also some kind of military or some other kind of issue that crops up this year.
Dr Rad 37:08 Definitely. Alright, so do you want me to spin my narrative?
Dr G 37:12 Please do.
Dr Rad 37:13 My narrative web. Okay. So the ambassadors from Tusculum arrive telling the Romans that in – and I don’t, I don’t know, like, in a couple of months, maybe I don’t know how long it’s passed that we’re talking about here – but finally, the Labicani are ready for war.
Dr G 37:29 “I’ve seen some pointy sticks. And I’m pretty sure they’re going to run at somebody soon.”
Dr Rad 37:34 Oh no, they’ve gone further than that. They’ve actually started attacking various areas in the countryside in the near area, with the Aequians by their side.
Dr G 37:45 Oh, I see.
Dr Rad 37:47 Treachery.
Dr G 37:49 Raiding hey?
Dr Rad 37:50 Yeah, definitely some raiding going on. And so we have a joint Aequian-Labicani force. And they have decided to camp on no other place than Mount Algidius – perhaps the most named mount in our Republican era-
Dr G 38:06 Very close to Tusculum.
Dr Rad 38:08 Yes, but I don’t know. I don’t know why. I guess just because it’s in that local area. Everything’s very small scale. But I feel like I have sent said that location more than any other. And it’s always because someone’s camping on it.
Dr G 38:19 I think it’s because it’s a relatively low hill with a good outlook. It’s definitely not the highest hill of these particular hills.
Dr Rad 38:27 But it’s handy, very strategic. So the Romans to say, well, this is enough, this is all I need to do here. And they officially declare war on the Labicani. Well, now, Dr G., the Romans – well, some of the Romans, I should say I shouldn’t tar them all with the same brush – don’t really come out of the next bit of detail very well. Because the Senate say, Well, we’re going to need to send two of our military tribunes to deal with these people, because we’re now officially at war. And one of you needs to stay in Rome clearly, to look after things here.
Dr G 39:02 Okay, so they’re going to have two go out and one stay, that’s fine.
Dr Rad 39:06 They’ve got three, you would think that would be fine. The problem is the three men start arguing with each other about who is going to go out and who is going to stay at home?
Dr G 39:16 Well, yeah, because you can’t win a triumph when you stay at home.
Dr Rad 39:19 You can’t and so they are trying to do this by bragging about how amazing they are militarily.
Dr G 39:27 This is not gonna go well for the new guy on the block.
Dr Rad 39:29 No they’re like, “Oh my god, I’m the best general ever. I mean, I’m so military, I sleep in my full armor.”
Dr G 39:36 “I crushed Fidenae – crushed them underneath my boot heel.”
Dr Rad 39:41 “I only speak in battle cry – that’s how military I am.”
Dr G 39:46 I’m not going to try to do my Xena war cry because it’s been too many years.
Dr Rad 39:50 Fair enough. Fair enough. But the message is clear to the people who are observing these arguments clearly. Looking after Rome itself is seen as – and I quote: “a thankless and ignoble task”. Nobody wants it.
Dr G 40:06 Well, I mean you can’t win a triumph…
Dr Rad 40:11 You can’t but the honour!
Dr G 40:14 There is no honour if there’s no triumph.
Dr Rad 40:17 Well, the senators don’t agree with you.
Dr G 40:18 I’m getting into my patrician like outlook in life what do I live for I live with military glory.
Dr Rad 40:24 Yeah definitely I was gonna say the vibe in here is getting uncomfortable. But anyway, the Senate are gobsmacked – they can’t believe that three grown arse men are having this debate amongst themselves and not just you know manning up I mean, okay. Can’t win a triumph, but they are already military tribunes with consular power, I mean…
Dr G 40:45 Play scissor paper rock guys. Not hard.
Dr Rad 40:50 Should go back in time and tell them about that game. Anyway. So this is where Quintus Servilius decides to step in and put an end to things. Yeah, he says, I listen your three you have a no respect. No respect at all.
Dr G 41:06 Does he sound like that?
Dr Rad 41:08 Well, if you know, it’s just the it’s just a no respect line that got me I was like, interesting. I felt like you know, I had to.
Dr G 41:19 Yeah, fair enough.
Dr Rad 41:20 Now this guy Quintus Servilius. He’s the dad of the hat trick, dude.
Dr G 41:25 Oh, yeah. Interesting.
Dr Rad 41:28 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so he’s like, look, this isn’t the way that we do things here. This isn’t the way that the Republic works. I am going to step in and use my father’s authority to put an end to all of this. Yeah. So he says, I’m going to put my son in charge of the city. Stop this mess.
Dr G 41:51 Okay, so he makes Gaius Servilius Axilla, his son, master of the horse and says you stay home. I’m going out to fight.
Dr Rad 42:00 Just to stop the fighting. Like I can’t take it anymore.
Dr G 42:03 Oh, okay.
Dr Rad 42:04 Yeah. And then he says-
Dr G 42:06 So the Senate calls for a dictator? And they decide that Quintus Servilius Priscus Fidenas should be the guy. And he immediately sets one of the military tribunes over the other two essentially?
Dr Rad 42:23 I’m not up to that point yet. You jumped ahead.
Dr G 42:27 Oh, no, I was just trying to figure out what’s going on.
Dr Rad 42:29 Okay. Okay. Let’s rewind, okay. So, Quintus Servilius steps in, and he’s put his son in charge of the city. He’s like, you’re the one that’s staying behind. The other two are going out to combat. Job done. Because as dad, I can tell you, son, you’re grounded. That’s what’s happening. And he says, I only hope that those who are eager to make the campaign may be conducted with more consideration and harmony than they display in seeking it. In other words, you’re pretty keen to be a general, so you better be damn good at it. Now, they decided they’re not going to conduct a levy on the whole population. Yeah, they decided that they’re going to use just 10 tribes chosen by lot for the levy. From those tribes, the two military tribunes selected the men of military age to serve with them. Okay, so they’re rounding up their forces at this point in time.
Dr G 43:22 Okay, so they must not feel that threatened. They’re not levying the whole population.
Dr Rad 43:27 Well, this might be setting back to something I said from 419, where the Romans are feeling a bit blase about the Aequians by this point in time, but we’ll see. We’ll see. Anyway. Now, obviously, there’s a lot on the line. These guys have really been bragging hard about how amazing they are. But unfortunately, their rivalry is not over.
Dr G 43:45 Oh no.
Dr Rad 43:47 So the feuding that had started amongst the three military tribunes now continues between the two military tribunes and it just gets worse-
Dr G 43:57 Boys boys boys.
Dr Rad 43:59 I know, I know. They’re each keen to be like the dominant one. They can’t share power.
Dr G 44:07 No, I’m the alpha. No, no I’m the alpha.
Dr Rad 44:10 Yeah, exactly. They basically as they cannot agree on anything. They’re just each pushing their own views and their own ideas. And the hatred is obviously just building and even their lieutenants can’t take it anymore. They’re like, “Oh, my God, enough, you guys, this is getting ridiculous. What we’re going to agree is that you each are going to hold supreme command on alternate days.
All right, okay. So that sounds reasonable. I mean, it’s a bit like a consulship.
It is it is kind of like that. However, the people back in Rome find out that this is what’s happening that like the fighting got to such an extent that lieutenants had to step in and be like, right, well, you guys can’t work together. So you’re going to hold power and like alternate days. And look, I guess there is a risk with the military campaign with that being the system, there’s no obviously, continuity. Typically, they actually do have such different ideas that they can’t accept what each other say.
Dr G 45:08 It does sound like a recipe for a Roman defeat.
Dr Rad 45:11 Yeah, absolutely. So this is where Quintus Servilius gets involved again. Yeah, he’s like, Alright, I think we need to ask the gods to protect the city. Because I am foreseeing that this is going to end really badly for us, like has happened previously with feuding commanders at places like they, and I can’t have that happen again. So he tells his son, go out and enlist more men and get them ready because I’m sensing that this is going to go badly, and we’re going to need to act quickly. So we basically need to be prepared, we need to have a backup, ready to go. Okay, now, we have on one day Servius, one of our military tribunes being in charge. Okay? The Romans are in a bad strategic location to start with. Okay, so it’s not beginning. Well, the Aequians start pretending like they’re scared being like, “Oh, my God, oh, my god,” and retreating to their ramparts. And the Romans had basically fallen for the trick. Okay, I guess pursuing them getting into this, like bad location. So that’s why they ended up there. And so they found themselves being attacked by the Aequians being chased down the hill into like a sloping valley. And it must be pretty bad because lots of Romans are not really just being chased. But they’re actually like tumbling down the hill. And because they’re falling over, and like, I guess they’re going, you know, arse over head-
Dr G 46:32 They’re going to be picked off.
Dr Rad 46:33 Yeah, well, exactly. They’re being slaughtered because they’re not even able to stand upright, because in trying to run away, they just like tripping over themselves. Basically, they only manage to hang on to their camp by like the skin of their teeth that particular day. So as predicted, the military campaign is not going very well. So the next day, the Roman camp is almost entirely surrounded. And they’re like, I think we have to abandon it. Because if we don’t leave now, we’re going to be completely surrounded and probably slaughtered. Now, the shame, Dr. G, the shame. It’s intense.
Dr G 47:14 Well, yeah, there’s kind of that moment of no return. If your camp is completely surrounded by the enemy, there is a point at which you will be overcome by them. Yeah, like, so you have to be really quite strategic, because there is a closing window of opportunity to leave the camp when that sort of military formation is starting to happen around your camp. And you haven’t been able to like secure an exit passage yet.
Dr Rad 47:38 Exactly. Yeah. So the generals and lieutenants and the people who will have the standards, they try to get out and they had for Tusculum. And it seems like the rest of the armed forces are just kind of like fleeing through the fields, whichever direction they can, it obviously seems like the Roman forces are in like full chaos at this point in time. There’s no real order to it. And so some of them make it to Tusculum. But some of the guys that are just like sort of randomly running through the field, eventually managed to make it back to Rome. And when they get there, they’re like, “Oh my god, it has all gone south, guys. It’s a terrible defeat. We’re in real trouble.” And they’re exaggerating it and making it sound. Well…
Dr G 48:17 Are they exaggerating? I don’t know. They’ve just run 20 kilometers home. They’re not feeling the best.
Dr Rad 48:24 I guess it may be a little uncertain about whether the camp maybe, you know, whether there was anybody there to be like slaughtered when it was, you know, like when it was obviously left to be captured and that sort of thing. Yeah, whatever it is. They’re saying it’s not clear, but they make out that it’s really, really, really terrible defeat so maybe they say like everyone’s been slaughtered except the me. Oh, and that guy as well. So I don’t think they have any idea what’s really happened to them as a whole force. Yeah. So it’s bad.
Dr G 48:52 They’re lacking military intelligence. They haven’t been on the ground for a while. They’ve been running for a long time. They don’t know how things are. What’s going on.
Dr Rad 48:59 Yeah, exactly. Now, luckily, the Romans are not too disturbed by this news, they’re like, “It’s okay. We knew this was gonna happen.”
Dr G 49:08 “Soon as you two started bickering.”
Dr Rad 49:10 Yeah, exactly. And they’re like, it’s okay. We’ve already got some men standing by. And Servilius had gotten in touch with the lesser magistrates, which I presume means the aediles and the quaestors and that sort of thing. Made sure that the city remained calm. Okay. He had also sent out scouts.
Dr G 49:29 I’m sorry, I just have these visions of everybody like popping like lavender essential oil on their pillows, like, just stay calm.
Dr Rad 49:36 We’ve been here before. It’s okay. It’s okay. Just breathe.
Dr G 49:40 I’m just gonna lead us through a guided meditation.
Dr Rad 49:43 You can come and collect your paper bag for breathing calmly anytime you like from the senate house. Yeah, so Servilius has sent out scouts as well. They’ve all come back and told him that don’t worry, the generals and the rest of the army. And the standards are all at Tusculum. So they’re safe. So the people are feeling actually kind of good, which seems weird because clearly things aren’t going well from them. And this is when Quintus Servilius Priscus is appointed dictator by a senatorial decree.
Dr G 50:16 I see. Okay. So it was just like his sort of like auctoritas and patrician persuasion earlier in the year that enabled him to sort of settled this three way dispute between the military tribunes.
Dr Rad 50:28 Yeah. And also the fact that he’s obviously got, you know, the good pedigree in terms of you know, previous leadership experiences people trust him. He’s not like an unknown quantity. Yeah. And so, and also, he definitely, he definitely had a role in crushing Fidenae. And that, hence his his cognomen. And so yeah, I think people are trusting him already. You know, they’ve taken his advice already. And now, he just seems like an oracle, because he foresaw all of this happening. And because of, you know, all the things that he suggested and put in place, they now don’t have to panic about what would have been seen as a military disaster. So that he just seems the most wise man that they’ve ever met, because he foresaw all the problems. And this is why obviously, his son ends up as his Master of the Horse, his, you know, his aid, because he had made sure that his son was the military tribune who stayed behind in the city. So he’s available
Dr G 51:26 Very convenient.
Dr Rad 51:27 Isn’t it just is this an evil plan? I think it might be so sorry, then you can bring in your additional detail now that he is dictator.
Dr G 51:37 Now that he is dictator. Now, I’m not sure that I’ve got heaps of additional detail, but I’ll give you what I have. So we’ve got the Fasti Capitolini, which just lists the three military tribunes but also then gives us some fragmented parts of the names of the dictator, the magister equitum – master of the horse – and the censor. We also have Diodorus Siculus letting us know about three military tribunes, which he gets mostly right.
Dr Rad 52:10 Impressive.
Dr G 52:11 Yeah, very impressive. This Servilius Priscus business, this name, or this combination of names, has also prompted people to think again about the dictator, who is around when the Faliscans are doing their thing. And this idea of the standard bearer and throwing the standard into the hostile enemy. So maybe that is something that comes up for you. But maybe it’s not I’m not sure I probably should have looked into it action. I don’t I don’t take this piece of evidence. This is from Frontinus. So don’t take this as being particularly on point right now.
Dr Rad 52:49 Okay.
Dr G 52:50 It’s it’s a reference because we’ve got a Servilius Priscus. But I think we’ve utilized this piece of evidence in another moment in time previously.
Dr Rad 52:59 Yeah, I definitely remember that story about the guy like being like, “Go get the standards!” to inspire the people.
Dr G 53:07 I then have another reference from Didorus Siculus for the same year, but right at the end, he spends all of his time talking about the Syracusan war, so he’s very keen about Greek history at this point in time. But he does mention that in Italy, the Romans went to war with the Aequians and really reduced Labici by siege. So the Labicani-
Dr Rad 53:33 They are from Labici
Dr G 53:34 They are from Labici or Labicum or Lavicum.
Dr Rad 53:39 This is sounding more and more like a lady’s body part every time you say it.
Dr G 53:43 An ancient city of Latium. So as you noted, it’s the exact location is disputed, but it’s thought to be part of the Alban Hills. So that south-east hilly region. Very nice, that’s where Tusculum is
Dr Rad 53:58 Near the Aequians.
Dr G 53:59 Yeah, that’s where Alba Longa is. There’s lots of cool things around there. It’s where Mount Algidum is.
Dr Rad 54:06 Make sense? This is a very localized fight.
Dr G 54:10 Very, yeah, but these guys are not completely unknown to us. Okay. There are a couple of references way back. Oh, yeah.
Dr Rad 54:21 I don’t remember ever talking about them.
Dr G 54:24 So in the 490s,
Dr Rad 54:26 Okay,
Dr G 54:26 Yeah, way back way back in the early early days of the Republic.
Dr Rad 54:32 So in like 2015 for us.
Dr G 54:36 So Dionysius of Halicarnassus actually records Labici as one of the Latin cities that joins into an alliance against Rome.
Dr Rad 54:44 Well, that makes sense. I was gonna say, I bet they were part of the whole Lake Regillus.
Dr G 54:48 Yes, they were. The infamous battle, Lake Regillus.
Dr Rad 54:54 So they’re just being seem like seething away ever since.
Dr G 54:57 You know, first of all, they wanted to reinstate the Tarquin dynasty and now they’re still pissed off. So it’s not like the Romans don’t know about them. There is, like 29 cities listed in this group that ally themselves against Rome in the 490s.
Dr Rad 55:13 They’re obviously just not like the largest one. Well, well the most powerful.
Dr G 55:17 I mean, I don’t know Dionysius lists them in alphabetical order.
Dr Rad 55:22 So he doesn’t avoid irritating any.
Dr G 55:24 Certainly, nobody is given preference in that list. And then we also see them hooking up with Coriolanus. Yeah. So Coriolanus takes his army – and this is when he’s leading the Volscian forces – and he’s like defected for Rome. Okay. And he marches against Labici.
Dr Rad 55:48 Oh, okay. As part of a Volscian force?
Dr G 55:51 Yeah. So the Volscians aren’t into them.
Dr Rad 55:53 No, I’m not into them.
Dr G 55:56 But the Aequians are. So we do have this sense in which there is a sort of a potted history of the Labicani having a relationship generally against Rome, but also maybe not fond of the Volscians either.
Dr Rad 56:12 Yeah, yeah. The power dynamics of this early early time.
Dr G 56:18 And that is literally all of the detail I have.
Dr Rad 56:20 Alright, well, I don’t have a lot more. So all I can say is that Livy’s says that some other sources – names unknown – have said that it’s actually Servilius Ahala, who was made the Master of the Horse Now, that doesn’t stack up to me, I feel like it’s far more likely that a dad would pick his son.
Dr G 56:41 Well, maybe although having said that this Axilla cognomen has been a source of confusion every time it gets mentioned and the Ahala is one of the potential rereading of it. So…
Dr Rad 56:55 Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, Livy acknowledged. Yeah, he acknowledges the difficulty anyway. So the original Servilius, the dad, he has out with us fresh troops. And he also calls on anyone who’s managed to flee to Tusculum. And he sets up a camp near two miles from the enemy. Now this is where things start to get a little confusing. For me, it seems like I’m kind of blending into 417. A little bit here. I’m not going to go into too much detail. But certainly, we’re gearing up for a campaign with Servilius as dictator at the head. And the Aequians are overconfident because they’ve done so well against the Romans,
Dr G 57:34 They they just had a pretty solid victory where the Romans ran away. Yeah.
Dr Rad 57:40 Obviously, they also think that the Romans have suffered a terrible defeat. And they’re not anticipating Servilius’ organizational skills. And his ability to tell the future.
Dr G 57:49 I don’t know. Is it organization or – by holding back the whole of the Roman military force in the first instance – was the reason why they failed?
Dr Rad 57:58 Well, no, it’s the arguing – it’s definitely the arguing.
Dr G 58:04 I’m just putting it out there. And imagine if you’d turned up with a proper army, Rome, the first time round, and maybe if this Servilius guy was like, you know, like thinking about things realistically, wouldn’t it have been better to just win it once?
Dr Rad 58:22 True, but I think that Livy’s quite heavily suggesting that it’s the leadership that’s the problem, not the size of the army. It’s the quality, Dr. G.
Dr G 58:30 Well, you need to sort out that before you go to war.
Well, this is exactly it.
So everything’s easier from hindsight. And I as a historian can attest…
Dr Rad 58:38 No, I think I think they held back the entire army, because I think there’s meant to be that sort of, “Look, there’s going to be a problem, we’re going to need some reserves” kind of sensation from the beginning.
Dr G 58:50 Don’t give these losers all of the troops.
Dr Rad 58:55 Maybe that maybe they were known before this for not liking each other or being argumentative. But anyway, so I’m not going to go much further. I’m just going to leave it on the cliffhanger of the Aequians are getting sloppy and careless. And now we have a dictator in charge, which means there’s no arguments or death.
Dr G 59:16 Oh, boy. Yeah.
Dr Rad 59:17 So I think with that in mind, Dr. G, it might be time for The Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, what is the Partial Pick all about?
Dr G 59:26 The Partial Pick is where we rate Rome. That’s it. I mean,
Dr Rad 59:33 Our of five categories.
Dr G 59:35 Five categories. They’re capable of getting 50 Golden Eagles if they really pay their cards, right. Five categories. 10 Eagles each. Military clout is our first category.
Dr Rad 59:46 Okay. Well, in terms of what they’ve actually accomplished, it’s not good.
Dr G 59:56 No, I think it might be a zero loss. Yeah.
Dr Rad 59:59 I mean, there’s There’s a hint that it might not be so bad. But that’s not enough for some eagles.
Dr G 1:00:05 No, no, you would actually have to have done something. Yeah. What we’ve heard is that they ran away. Yeah. And, and tumbled down the hill.
Dr Rad 1:00:13 And what are you concerned with their own personal reputation and authority tasked to actually get it together
Dr G 1:00:18 at the camp surrounded by the enemy? Yeah, no bad. No good. Zero, I’d give them minus equals right now, if I could.
Dr Rad 1:00:23 Well, the only thing I think, allowing them to hang on to their dignity at all, is the fact that they at least have the standards and they didn’t get killed. And that’s not enough for an eagle
Dr G 1:00:34 Oft. Alright, so that’s a solid zero. Diplomacy is our second category.
Dr Rad 1:00:42 Well, look, they did try and send envoys to the Labici. They tried to avoid war, they only declared war once. The Aequians and the beachy had attacked.
Dr G 1:00:54 I mean, we really do need to know more about how those envoys behaved.
Dr Rad 1:00:59 Yeah, I mean, look, I’m not gonna say the Romans have a great reputation with this kind of stuff. But at the same time, we don’t have evidence to suggest that they were awful. I don’t know that they wanted a war at this point in time, to be honest.
Dr G 1:01:11 I’ll give them a one. That’s fair. Our third category is Expansion.
Dr Rad 1:01:19 Well, that’s definitely a zero.
Dr G 1:01:21 No, if anything things have contracted. And our fourth category is Virtus. How manly have they been?
Dr Rad 1:01:31 Well, I feel like Servilius is on the cusp of doing something. But I don’t know if he’s done enough yet.
Dr G 1:01:38 I think there’s something to be said for those military tribunes arguing once themselves about who goes out because they want the glory. They want the virtus. Glory is interconnected with virtus.
Dr Rad 1:01:49 Yeah, but they do such a terrible job of it. I don’t know if they get eagles for that. Just wanting it isn’t enough. Everybody wants that. Everybody.
Dr G 1:01:59 Just trying to put it in context before we give it a score of zero.
Dr Rad 1:02:04 Yes, I think it’s a zero.
Dr G 1:02:06 I think so. I mean, it’s been a mess.
Dr Rad 1:02:09 I’ve considered it carefully.
Dr G 1:02:11 Yeah. And our last category is the Citizen Score.
Dr Rad 1:02:15 Well, again, I’m gonna say it’s probably not a great time to be a citizen, because you’ve got slaves conspiring to kill you. Just leave probably. But nonetheless, it’s not a great time. In that sense. Now, they don’t succeed. I’ll grant you that. But that can’t be good. Can’t be good feeling.
Dr G 1:02:34 No one doesn’t feel quite as safe with their enslaved population.
Dr Rad 1:02:39 No, and presumably, they’ve lost a lot of slaves out of this whole thing. If
Dr G 1:02:44 at least the ringleaders who got scourged and crucified.
Dr Rad 1:02:48 Yeah. Okay. So there’s that, then you’ve got this military defeat, which doesn’t sound good. And the only good thing I can say about it, is that you’re not panicking. Because you’re being told not to panic.
Dr G 1:03:04 I was gonna say, does the lavender oil?
Dr Rad 1:03:07 I don’t know, the paper bags and the lavender oil are enough to actually get an eagle.
Dr G 1:03:11 I mean, that’s a real shame, because somebody in the city was working hard to make sure everybody was calm. There’s some great mental health strategies happening right now.
Dr Rad 1:03:23 But is being told to be calm when there’s been a military defeat. Is that actually meaning that it’s great to be a citizen of Rome?
Dr G 1:03:32 I mean, would you rather be panicking?
Dr Rad 1:03:34 Well, yeah, but like, I’m saying, is it enough to get an eagle like, No, I wouldn’t. But is it enough to get an eagle?
Dr G 1:03:39 I think the bigger problem? I don’t think it is I I’m just arguing for the sake of it. I think the bigger problem is that there has been what essentially sounds like two levys of the population. There’s been the partial levy for the initial military foray in 418. And then there has been the secret – or the additional – the dictatorship levy, that happens to raise the additional force that’s going to, that’s on the cusp of doing something now. So the citizens have been pressed twice.
Dr Rad 1:04:14 They have but on the other hand, I feel like I mean, the whole reason why Servilius obviously got his son to hold back some of the forces is because he knew that there was going to be a problem between these military tribunes and, presumably, that means he’s might he might have lived to save some lives, from people who didn’t get close, like definitely there.
Dr G 1:04:32 So we can’t give people points for hypotheticals.
Dr Rad 1:04:35 No, no, but I mean, I think that lives probably have been saved here. I mean, there were a lot of guys who were like jack and jilling it down that hill. I’m not gonna I’m not gonna get Yeah, no, I’m not gonna give them points for it. But I’m just saying that like, I think holding back some of the forces was actually a good idea in retrospect.
Dr G 1:04:58 So but we’re still giving them a zero.
Dr Rad 1:04:59 Were still giving them a zero. So that means strategy that the Romans had finished for two years together on a grand total of one golden eagle and even that eagle was given begrudgingly.
Dr G 1:05:13 Oh Rome.
Dr Rad 1:05:14 Showing your best you know, like who would have thought like I honestly…
Dr G 1:05:17 We gave them two years so they at least had a chance.
Dr Rad 1:05:20 God wow, I really didn’t think the early Republic was going to have so many grim moments.
Dr G 1:05:26 We are not at the height of Rome’s power yet. It’s pretty clear.
Dr Rad 1:05:29 But even internally, like “Come on, Rome, get it together.”
Dr G 1:05:34 Lavender oil, spread it everywhere.
Dr Rad 1:05:37 Indeed,
Dr G 1:05:37 Bathe in it.
Dr Rad 1:05:39 I will be till next time because I just don’t know what’s gonna happen. Will Servilius manage to extricate the Romans from this difficult situation?
Dr G 1:05:48 Will the Labici hold their ground?
Dr Rad 1:05:51 Giiirl.
Dr G 1:05:53 Tune in for the next edition of The Partial Historians.
Dr Rad 1:05:56 Indeed. And before we sign off, I’d like to give a special shout out to the Bella Vista Hotel who have a free podcast studio that we are using today.
Dr G 1:06:06 It’s very exciting.
Dr Rad 1:06:07 Very fancy.
Dr G 1:06:07 We feel very professional right now.
Dr Rad 1:06:09 We do. It took us ages to figure out how to use equipment. It’s like a proper studio.
Dr G 1:06:14 Oh my god.
Dr Rad 1:06:15 Oh my god.
Dr G 1:06:17 I’ll catch you next time. Dr. Rad.
Dr Rad 1:06:20 You will.
Dr G Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of The Partial Historians. We would like to send a huge thank you to all of our supporters across our various social medias, and particularly to our Patreon supporters. This episode we’re giving a big shout out to the following patrons Lex, Spacefloozy, Rihanna, Maple Leaf Aussie, Dr. Kate, Jonathan, AJ, Sheila, and Marie-Eve. Thank you to you and to all of our supporters. We look forward to having you with us next episode.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode - Women of Myth with Ancient History Fan Girl
Jul 27, 2023
Content warning for this episode: violence, sexual violence, removal of children
While Women of Myth is the centre of this conversation, there’s no way to discuss ancient ideas about women without considering how that might reflect upon the contemporary issues that women face. This also leads into consideration of the challenges faced by women throughout history.
We wrap up with a discussion of looking beyond the ancient Greco-Roman world – the value of doing that and what that can look like in podcasting.
Special Episode – Women of Myth with Ancient History Fan Girl
What makes a book?
In this interview, we explore some of the details of the book including
The ideas that shaped the concept for Women of Myth
The role of Sara Richard’s illustrations in expanding representation
What it was like to co-write a book together
Listen out for discussions about
Amba/Shikhandi – The Vengeance-Seeking Genderqueer Warrior of the Mahabharata
Atalanta – The Ancient Greek Warrior, Athlete, and Argonaut
Ītzpāpālōtl – The Skeletal Warrior Goddess of the Aztecs
La Llorona – The Wailing Woman of Mexican Mythology
Medea – Dr G draws parallels with La Llorona and Medea’s stories
The Morrigan – The Ancient Irish Goddess of War and Battle Frenzy
Oya – The Yoruba Warrior Goddess and Orisha of the Wind
An illustration by Sara Richard from Women of Myth of Ītzpāpālōtl, the Aztec Skeletal warrior goddess. She appears as a crown skull with green feathered hair surrounded by flames.
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:20 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a very special edition of The Partial Historians. I am Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:00 And I’m Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:02 And Dr. G, we are joined today by two extra special guests. I know this is very exciting for us two extra special people are with us. And the mystery of way shall soon be revealed. I know what I mean, this is this is really a treat because we are joined by two members of the unofficial lady pod squad. And that is right we are joined by Jenny and Genn, who are the hosts of the extremely popular Ancient History Fan Girl podcast. And we are both fan girls of that podcast. Are we not Dr. G?
Dr G 1:39 We are so it’s like super, super exciting. It’s like ancient history girls unite.
Dr Rad 1:43 Exactly, exactly.
Jenny 1:45 The feeling is mutual.
Genn 1:46 Very mutual.
Dr Rad 1:50 It’s actually it’s actually really shocking that we have not had you on our show before this because it was many, many moons ago that we recorded Spartacus together. And I feel like it’s because we’re constantly in contact in terms of I constantly see what you guys are up to on Instagram and constantly listen to your show. And I kind of forget that we haven’t actually talked in real life for quite some time.
Jenny 2:11 It’s a parasocial relationship.
Dr Rad 2:15 It’s indicative of this sad social media world that we live in. It’s like, oh, I’m totally caught up with this person’s life.
Jenny 2:21 Yes, we are in meshed. I have I frequently have that as well.
Dr Rad 2:28 And we are having them on the show today. Because extra excitingly, they have just written a book.
Dr G 2:37 Oh, my God.
Dr Rad 2:39 That’s right. That’s right. They are now not only the cohosts of an excellent Ancient History podcast, but they are the coauthors of Women of Myth: From Deer Woman and Mami Wata to Ama – oh see, I’m going to screw this up. Amaterasu and Athena your guide to the amazing and diverse women from World Mythology.
Jenny 3:05 Yay. That’s our book. Thank you so much for having us on. This is so exciting.
Genn 3:13 Yeah, we’re so excited to be here.
Dr Rad 3:15 No problems at all. And we probably should give a bit of a shout out because not only are you guys co authored this, but you also have some amazing illustrations by Sarah is it? Is it Rashad or Richard Richard
Jenny 3:25 Richard
Dr Rad 3:25 Richard, by Sarah Richard, which really do make the stories I think come alive.
Jenny 3:31 Absolutely. And Liv Albert wrote our forward canvas that
Dr G 3:35 I know. Oh, yeah. For people who might still be unaware – and that must be so few people out there – Liv Albert is the host of “Let’s Talk About Myths, Baby”, which is an incredibly popular podcast from the unofficial lady pod squad.
Jenny 3:50 Indeed. I think it’s just official at this point.
Genn 3:55 I think so. I think I’m going to have badges made.
Dr Rad 3:58 I know, I’m like how have we missed the opportunity to have matching T shirts made I don’t know.
Jenny 4:05 We should all have a T shirt.
Dr Rad 4:07 Yeah, absolutely.
Genn 4:08 Okay. I’m on it.
Dr Rad 4:10 Done, there’s our project. Alright, so let’s get into it. Dr. G.
Dr G 4:14 Yes. So we’re very excited about this book. And I imagine that many people who listen to our podcasts are going to be excited about it as well. So I’m wondering, just to get us started, what’s the basic premise? I feel like the title gives a little bit of a hint. But I imagine there’s more to be said on this front.
Jenny 4:32 Do you want to hit that one, Genn?
Genn 4:35 Oh, I’m gonna let you start.
Jenny 4:37 I mean, the basic myth, it’s women and world mythology. It’s, it’s um, it’s about women and also, you know, feminine presenting characters figures from mythologies around the world. And that includes, we had 50 different slots. And, you know, it’s, it’s actually there are many Goddesses in the book, but it’s divided into three categories goddesses, heroines and monsters. So um, yeah, that’s basically And
Genn 5:05 And put those monsters in quotation marks, please.
Dr Rad 5:07 Yeah.
Jenny 5:08 Monsters, quote unquote. And we definitely go into what is coded monstrous in the book and talk about that a lot. So, um, so yeah, that’s that’s basically what the concept is.
Dr Rad 5:20 Excellent. Yeah, no, I must admit, I was really interested, by the way that you chose to set out your book. And I found it very, very fascinating. So you’ve got, as you say, those three categories of mighty goddesses, both heroines and formidable monsters using flesh rabbits, they’re jumping, they’re jumping all over my screen. Can you tell us how did you decide upon those categories when you were setting about writing this book?
Genn 5:45 So those categories were actually something that our publisher wanted. So it was it came down from, from the publishing gods.
Dr Rad 5:54 Yeah.
Genn 5:55 And that was, it might seem like that could be limiting. But actually, it was really fun. And it forced us to really look at who looked at how we were gonna break up the book and make sure that we had not just a whole bunch of goddesses, or not just a whole bunch of really great mortal heroines who did incredible stuff, or not just focus on some of my favorites and mythology, the monsters, because the monsters are just so fascinating and tell you so much about a culture. It’s, you know, it tells you what people are afraid of. It also tells you about how people, the things people valued the things they didn’t value. So, you know, there’s a whole book that could be made of each of those sections. So it was kind of nice to have the publishing Gods on higher say, you know, what, could you give us a little taste of each?
Jenny 6:48 Yeah, it was, I think it provided some good structure.
Dr Rad 6:52 Yeah, definitely. Well, I must admit, I was particularly interested in it because I am a teacher, as I think some people might know. And in my Year 11, course, I get to teach a unit called “Women in Greece and Rome”, which is a comparative study of that. And I will actually always have a section on female monsters from mythology, because I think it’s a great way to actually start off the unit, because, as you say, by looking at what a culture is afraid of, I think that actually tells you a huge amount about their attitudes to various things. But if you want to look at gender, for example, it gives you real insight into that.
Jenny 7:27 Oh, yeah, huge amounts.
Genn 7:30 Spoiler, it’s almost always women with sexual agency, almost always.
Jenny 7:34 Frequently, it’s not only that, there’s, there’s kind of a subcategory that’s like, you know, medical fears, we found a lot of monsters who are kind of, you know, spirits or beings that interfered with, for example, childbirth, and you know, what we might call today, sudden infant death syndrome. You know, like, if this monster attack, they attack a woman in in birthing, or they attack a baby, it’s as it’s just born. And this is a way to explain deaths that might not be easily explained otherwise, in pre modern cultures. There’s also monsters like, for example, there was one an Inuit monster that was basically like her, her. Her basically what she was, was a monster that tempted children out onto the ice. So she would like if a child wandered out onto the ice, she would grab it and take it underwater. So you know, that just speaks to a real fear about the environment and about, you know, children wandering away from their parents and winding up in dangerous situations, which I’m sure was, and still is, in a lot of places. A real danger, right. So..
Dr G 8:41 Yeah, I think that I think that’s a really important point, because one of the things that you can see a connection with here is how sexual agency sort of leads into the childbearing aspect. And then the consequences of the childbearing fall upon the mother and the child in various ways.
Jenny 8:58 Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely. Like there’s there’s all these like, kind of revolving fears around women, childbirth, child rearing that, that exists across many cultures.
Genn 9:08 And then you get it on the other end as well. You get a lot of older women characters are also monsters. I mean, famously Baba Yaga, right, the, the Slavic witch, the deep forest, whose house is on spindly chicken legs that can move around and she’s kind of a chaotic, chaotic, and all fairy tales. Sometimes she’ll do good things. Sometimes she’ll do real bad things. Sometimes she’ll put your head on one of her D posts. You also have like there’s a cannibal ogress who also takes an age children. So there’s a lot of like women who are not within the family unit who are older, maybe past childbearing years, also being dangerous, particularly if they have any kind of knowledge.
Jenny 9:50 Demonized, literally. Yeah.
Dr Rad 9:52 I feel like that’s speaking to so many things as a person who’s decided not to have children, mostly because I am massively afraid or the idea that I’m like, Yes, this resonates and also living in a culture where we’re terrified of aging and women are just like not supposed to age. I think this can definitely hit home with a lot of people in our audience.
Jenny 10:15 Yeah.
Dr G 10:18 I want to be a crone. I’m looking forward to that part of my lifestyle.
Jenny 10:22 Listen, we’re all gonna wind up on Team Cannibal Ogress eventually like we all know that.
Genn 10:30 Do we have to be cannibals though like I’m here for ogress, but do I need to be accountable?
Dr G 10:34 You can be a vegetarian if you so desire that is fine.
Jenny 10:37 You can be a vegan cannibal ogress.
Dr Rad 10:41 I’m actually I’m actually seeing our future now. You know, soon soon we’ll all be of an age where society no longer wants to look at us and has no use for us. So we may as well just buy an apartment building that’s entirely soundproof where our matching lady pod squad T shirts, and we’ll just lock ourselves up in individual spaces and record sounds like basically what I’m doing now.
Genn 11:02 Overlooking the sea please.
Jenny 11:05 Genn can have a window in hers.
Dr Rad 11:08 You can have that, old crone.
Jenny 11:10 Her teeth are long; her windows are glorious.
Dr Rad 11:16 Yeah.
Genn 11:18 How else am I gonna warn people not to approach sometimes by like putting a head in the window. Like I need to have something to warn people.
Dr Rad 11:25 Yeah. We’ll be an interesting version of the sirens. You know,
Jenny 11:28 Stop scaring the food away.
Genn 11:32 Alright, look, I’ll be able to manipulate like you have the low lighting. We’ve got a few good years. Yeah.
Dr Rad 11:38 It’s good to have a plan, you know, eventually, you know, society will cast you out.
Jenny 11:45 It’s called retirement.
Genn 11:46 There’s only so many Tik Tok filters, right. Like, we can’t make the Tik Tok filters reality yet.
Dr Rad 11:51 Yes, exactly.
Genn 11:54 Yet.
Dr G 12:00 So I’m thinking about bringing things back to the to the topic at hand. I just sort of went out on a little imagination of being like, what would it be like to live in a giant apartment complex with ladies by the sea? And I was like, I think it would be good. I’m looking forward to that. So the illustrations in this book by Sara Richard, they’re amazing. I have to say like, so evocative. And I’m really interested in your perspective. One, what was that like working together on this sort of stuff? And how do these illustrations in your view really enhance the themes that are coming out in the work?
Jenny 12:35 Oh my gosh, there’s so much to say about that. Like, there’s so much to so much like the it was very collaborative, you know, like we would – we would receive kind of line drawings Sarah and Sarah would do these like really funny line drawings and like kind of put little notes in them like skulls here and look at the little arrow you know, like more skull children hiding in the woods. Usually it was skulls though she’d there’s like skulls and stories that actively don’t have skulls, which I love. So many, I love that this as a as a fan of the cult of the severed head. I just love skulls, and so to Sara, so I think it really worked. But um, yeah, so like, she would send it in, you know, like line drawings, we would take a look and go back and forth on things and kind of collaborate on what the final result would be. And she so frequently just absolutely knocked it out of the park with very little communication, because she had her own process that was always like really in line with ours, because I think she had like really a similar kind of aesthetic to what we were thinking of, and what we were going for in the writing, you know, like, I’m not shying away from the gory details, for example.
Genn 13:46 So one of the things that, you know, we found when we were doing when we were doing the mythology, history, everything for this book is there’s one word that comes up again and again, when you when you talk about women in, in these stories, and it’s a word that I personally hate because it’s such a loaded word. And we couldn’t erase it from the book, because it’s oftentimes integral to the, to the plot, and that word is beautiful. And so one of the things that we had to contend with was, how are we going to, you know, we’ve got this wonderful collection of stories about diverse women, how are we going to show beauty in a way that isn’t just a westernized beauty standard? And you know, what, what we did with Sara was we worked really closely to be clear about how some of these women could look how, you know, they could not necessarily look Western, like you know, we have we have gender non binary characters. We have larger characters, which for me is always important. You know, I grew up in the era of Disney princesses, where they’re literally their heads or, you know, their hands are bigger than their waist. So, it was super important to me that we have have a full body diversity, full, you know, diversity of gender identity. And we didn’t just want like larger people. I also wanted to see women who are super athletic women who are, you know, slender women who look like every other woman looks. And also, you know, one of the things Sara does is you’ll see a lot of gorgeous women with, you know, very big noses or, you know, beautiful, bright eyes or, you know, the hair textures, everything she’s just so good at so that when you look at these women, they are all beautiful, and they’re not all uniform.
Jenny 15:38 They all look different. Yeah. Yeah.
Genn 15:41 Yeah, they all look great.
Dr Rad 15:43 Yeah, no, I really love to. I really love that aspect of your illustrations, the fact that you had given the thought of, as you say, not just thinking about the ethnicity in terms of skin tone, and that kind of stuff, which is obviously, still a big issue these days, sadly, as we can see, because at the time of recording, we’re recording in the midst of this Netflix fewer about the casting of Cleopatra for their Docu drama, and what she looked like. And I’m sure we all remember a few years ago, when there was debate about the casting of for Troy full of a city. And you know, the casting of people of color to play various mythological characters. So I love that aspect. But I think as you say, particularly for gender, people might not automatically think about it, but having that diversity of body type is so important.
Jenny 16:26 Absolutely. Yeah. And that was a big priority of ours. And I think Sara really knocked it out of the park there, too.
Genn 16:32 Yeah, I wanted to see women who if they were like, riding an elephant or swinging a sword could swing that sword. I was here for that. And one of the one of the one of the illustrations, that’s my favorite is the Morrigan, who is the Celtic goddess of the battlefield, she has Genn hair, which is a very fluffy braid hair. I was so excited that Sara did that. But also, she just looks terrifying. She looks like she would stalk a battlefield. With her cape made of feathers and viscera. She looks like she belongs there. And she’s got this really terrifying beauty to her. Like, I don’t think anyone would, you know, can traditionally call her the most beautiful like person, but she’s really scary. Pretty.
Jenny 17:21 Yeah.
Dr G 17:23 Yeah, that’s it. It’s just a sign, we need to expand our scope of what includes is in beauty, like those narrow standards that come through, particularly online and through like dominant cultural paradigms. And it’s like, books like this become really important because they provide that counterpoint. And you’re not just challenging culture, you’re also expanding it by doing this kind of work. So kudos to you guys.
Jenny 17:46 Absolutely. Thank you.
Genn 17:47 Thank you.
Dr Rad 17:47 And I know my students are always disappointed even though they don’t want to say it, I can see it on their faces. Because when I am when I am teaching Troy, and we start by watching the Hollywood version, then when I show them like the Bettany Hughes documentary, and they see that approximation of what how long or short, it might actually look like, given the cultural beauty standards, that their faces always kind of fall because they’re just like, oh my god, like it’s so confronting the different to like my, you know, Kim Kardashian view of what, you know what a beautiful woman looks like.
Jenny 18:28 It’s like, I feel like I’ve seen Helen of Troy depicted as blonde so often and where does that come from? I mean, why, why is she blonde? You know?
Dr Rad 18:36 Yeah,
Dr G 18:37 Like, what are the chances? It’s like, slim to none guys.
Jenny 18:39 Exactly.
Genn 18:40 Well that’s, that’s, that’s the othering, right? That’s like we see the red hair pop up all the time. Right as as a ginger, like, who has Mediterranean roots. The only reason you see that is to say this person doesn’t belong, like they’re from somewhere else.
Dr Rad 18:53 Yeah,
Jenny 18:53 The odds are very high.
Genn 18:54 There were not genders or there were not blondes. I mean, yes, I’m sure there were like, statistically, but realistically, you know, the Bettany Hughes adaptation is much closer to what it would have been, you know, you’re seeing those hair colors because it’s supposed to be a divine sort of thing to this person, as opposed to an actual reality of what they would have looked like. Sorry.
Dr Rad 19:13 Yeah. 100% 100%.
Genn 19:15 Sorry, gingers out there.
Dr G 19:18 Before we move on from illustrations, I just have to say that the one that really stood out to me was I’m going to try to pronounce the name and hope I get it right. Ītz-pāpā-lōtl, the skeletal warrior goddess.
Jenny 19:31 Yeah, Ītzpāpālōtl.
Dr G 19:34 Yeah. The warrior goddess of the Aztecs, who also has this skeletal aspect about her. Just amazing.
Jenny 19:41 So she was one of my absolute favorites. So if you ask me, you know who’s my favorite. There are like dozens of them that I could say but she’s one that really stood out to me. And we discovered her like one of the she was one of the first ones that I found that was kind of outside of the scope of what I already knew. And I was just so excited about her. She’s a skeletal warrior goddess of the Aztecs. She has butterfly wings lined with obsidian knives and her mythology includes you know, sleeping with a man and then ripping out his heart and eating it, which is pretty awesome.
Dr G 20:12 I mean all round she sounds like the kind of woman I’d want to hang out with.
Jenny 20:15 Hardcore.
Genn 20:18 She has some great stories to tell you over and over like a nice bottle of like, white zinfandel. Yeah, like how did we get to this part where we had to rip the guy apart?
Dr G 20:27 Tell me how we got there.
Jenny 20:28 I mean, I think it’s not a white zinfandel. Kind of. I think she drinks blood red wine.
Genn 20:34 All right. Well, listen, I don’t – she would make an exception for me. She just put some hearts in hers. It’d be fine.
Jenny 20:40 I don’t think she’s a “hearts in the wine” kind of gal. That’s just you know, blood clots in the wine, sure. Hearts in the wine. Literal hearts perhaps?
Genn 20:50 That’s what I meant literal heart.
Jenny 20:52 Oh, I thought you meant like little gummy hearts.
Genn 20:54 No.
Jenny 20:58 Okay, I could see why zinfandel or red zinfandel with with literal hearts in it that she would she would probably drink that. Yeah.
Dr Rad 21:06 Tasty.
Jenny 21:07 She works. Like our whole cannibal plan I think she would fit in.
Dr Rad 21:13 So, I really intrigued because Dr. G and I have also just written a book together, it seems really weird that you know, you guys were publishing your book, publishing our book, and we’re like, Oh, my God, we know a little bit about like, what it’s like to try and write a book, you know, together, not just on your own, you know, locked in your own thoughts and that sort of thing. Tell us what are the biggest challenges that you encountered when you were writing this book?
Jenny 21:37 Um, I don’t know. Like, I feel like for me, the most challenging parts were because there there were, I know, Jenna’s gonna have a different answer to this. But for me, the the challenging parts were writing about, you know, women in cultures and mythologies and stories that I wasn’t already familiar with, because I’m pretty familiar with certain aspects of, you know, Greek and Roman culture and Celtic mythology and things because we had covered that in the podcast. But we were expanding a whole lot beyond what we had already covered. So I always wanted to approach those topics, like really well, and with the same, you know, thoroughness of research that I did for stuff I had done, you know, a two and a half hour, like, episode series on or something. So, I felt like that, you know, like, I felt a little stressed about it, sometimes I was just like, I want to make sure I get this right, I want to make sure I’m not just, you know, applying a Western lens, or equating something to things that I had already heard about that it actually has nothing to do with, you know. So I was really careful in that and thinking about that a lot. So I would say that, for me, that was the most challenging part. But it was also really fun, because I got to just get outside of my comfort zone and learn about things that I had not known about before. And that’s really the fun part for me. So.
Genn 22:53 So everything Jenny said is also how I felt I also, one of the things just to add to this, before I go on to what I found really, equally difficult. One of the things were really careful about was because these weren’t, were non western cultures and cultures that we were experiencing for the first time, we really wanted to try to find sources, telling the mythology in sort of from that culture, absolutely important to us that we make sure that you know, we looked at sort of, you know, we looked at the starting point, which is a collection or wherever you would find it in English, a lot of times, we also you know, we are, we are a bit you know, handy, we know we are a bit limited as we only speak English and read English, I read a tiny bit of Latin, Jenny can read and write a little bit of French, but with the with the the exception of that we are not fluent in any other languages. So, you know, we can’t read something in Mandarin. And that does limit the opportunities you have when you’re looking into other cultures. So we were really careful to make sure that where possible, we found sources that were outside of Western cultures and use them to tell these stories of these women. The thing that and that was tricky. But the other thing that I found really scary and anxiety inducing was I tended to cover some of the really big characters from Western and non western cultures like I covered. I wrote the entry, Mulan and Athena and Medusa. And these are all stories that are so ingrained in Western culture and other cultures. Like we have certain images of what we’re expecting. And I found like, Well, what do I have to say that’s new? That’s also true to the story and how do I continue to make that engaging and not just be the same thing you’ve read before? I found that really intimidating. I think we got there in the end.
Jenny 24:51 I think so. Yeah. I hope so.
Genn 24:55 I don’t know about you got a you both but like, I found writing this book with Jenny. We each took different entries that we edited the other person’s entries. But from having the podcast for so long, I didn’t find it like our voices I think meld really well, in the writing of the book, like, I don’t think it seemed like two different people wrote stuff. And I don’t know if you had a similar experience, because like, I kind of felt like it was easy to keep our tone and our voice really consistent. So it felt like one unified project, like what was it like for you?
Dr G 25:25 Oh, that’s a good question. I feel we did a similar thing in terms of like dividing up who would take which chapter and then co editing and, and reversing that and things like that. And I think part of the beauty for us is that we do have two distinct voices, we share a sense of humor. But you would I think, for the astute listener of our podcast, they’d be able, they’d be able to identify who wrote which chapter as well. And it might not necessarily be the case for somebody who hadn’t encountered our work before, because we do have really similar touch points. But it’s really interesting to me, because Fiona has all of these sort of popular cultural references, that I don’t get. And then what I think are popular cultural references are still historical, so. And that was something that I was like, Oh, this doesn’t come up so much when we’re chatting with each other. But it was really distinctly clear in the writing. And I was like, oh, that’s fascinating to me. So it was like, I felt like we got to know each other a little bit better through the process, even though we know each other so well.
Dr Rad 26:26 I agree. I agree. When I was editing Dr G’s chapters, I always break out to a cold sweat whenever I read anything that she’s written, because I’m like, she’s just so effortlessly, effortlessly academic. Like, I can only I can only aspire to have this kind of tone to my work. And then I start rethinking everything I’ve ever written. But yeah,
Genn 26:51 I frequently feel that way as well.
Dr Rad 26:54 But yeah, but you, but you have to just have Yeah, I have. The good thing is I know that if she’s the one editing my work, I’m like, I feel at ease. Because if she can write this way, and she can edit my work, I know she’ll tell me if I’m being an idiot.
Dr G 27:09 I can’t confirm she is not.
Dr Rad 27:15 But yeah, no, it was it was I agree that I think for someone who doesn’t know us, if they probably just be like, oh, yeah, this kind of reflects the podcast. But for people who know us, well, people who listen to the podcast, I think they would be able to tell which chapter was written by which person and it is mostly because I can’t restrain myself. The publisher actually forced me to cut massively back on the pop culture references saying that I wasn’t, I wasn’t dating the book to some of them.
Dr G 27:41 I had to put footnotes in for my chapters, because he was like, Is that a thing? And I was like, that’s a thing. And I’m not cool. But you’re even more uncool than me. So I’m not going to delete it. I’ll put a footnote in for you and others of your ilk.
Jenny 27:56 Yeah, we included pop culture references when we could find them as well, because not all of the figures and characters that we found had like extensive pop culture references, but there were some who were kind of emerging and and were appearing in more like kind of manga and video games and more modern pop culture. And it was cool to kind of track that down a little bit. Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 28:20 And I think that’s useful as well for people who are approaching these sorts of stories because they like they do have a whole wealth of reception as well. So, you know, anything that might be a touchstone for somebody, I think is useful for bringing them in further into that knowledge. And anything that they come across that they haven’t encountered, but the story appeals to them, they’ve got an avenue to pursue to explore it further.
Jenny 28:41 So absolutely, yeah. For example, like Ītzpāpālōtl has, I think she’s inspired at least one monster in a horror film, the name of which escapes me and she’s also inspired, I think, a Disney plus cartoon character from there. And I also the name escapes me as well. But I know that she’s appearing in pop culture recently. And it’s really fun to it’s really fun to see that and track it down.
Dr G 29:06 Yeah, so thinking about you’ve covered 50 women and this is like, like a huge range. Is there any standouts? Oh, the question that we’ve written down is like, who ended up being your favorite and I’m always a little bit I always back away a little bit when people ask me favorite questions because I really dislike having to place one thing on a pedestal so I appreciate that you might not want to go there. But if so one sort of stand out for you that that may be struck you along the way that hit you differently from what you thought it would or surprised you in some way.
Jenny 29:41 Genn, you want to go first on that?
Genn 29:43 No, I’m gonna let you go first because I love hearing you tell this story and I know what you’re gonna say.
Jenny 29:47 Yeah, I always say the same one. And I always preface this by saying that they’re they were all my favorite like having done this book. I was always just super excited about whichever one I was covering and I would be texting Genn these little details and if you asked me what my favorite was that week, it would be whatever when I was working on that week, so I really did fall in love with all of them genuinely. And they’re all They’re all my favorite, I feel very strongly about all the ones that I covered even all the ones that Genn covered because I also helped her edit her entries, and she helped edit mine. So it was really kind of a joint project in that way.
Genn 30:21 And then we recorded the audiobook. So then we, we didn’t record necessarily our entries, we recorded each other sometimes based on the flow of the book. So they do really all feel like they are ours, you know, absolutely.
Jenny 30:35 But I would say that one that has stuck with me that I really just kind of love fell in love with and and felt like I maybe identified with or, you know, just just really loved was this goddess named Oya, who is she is like an Eastern African and also African diaspora goddess who I think she may have like, she’s like a goddess at the Niger River. Originally, she’s a water gout goddess, but also a goddess of like lightning and whirl winds and wind. And she’s a warrior goddess, but she’s also a goddess of commerce. And she has so many disparate aspects to her. But one of the things about her that I just really loved is that she I think her name means if I’m getting this right, I might be messing this up. But I think her name means the “tearer”, as in the t e a r e r, the “tearer”. And part of her one of her aspects is that she is a goddess of like, the destructive force that comes before transformative change. So she would like, you know, kind of rip into your life like, like a strong wind and just rip everything up by the roots. And you have to start again. And I found that to be like a really interesting and important message to me, because I know that I see this in a lot of my female friends specifically. And also I have done this extensively in my own life. Just holding on to a situation that is not good for me, because I had hoped that it would change, you know, and that has been, I’ve done this in several different relationships. I’ve done this with jobs, I’ve done this with, you know, goals that I had, that no longer worked for me, like just holding on to something so hard, when what I really needed was some of that oil energy, just sweeping in there turning everything upside down and shaking it and just letting me start unburden myself and start over again. And I think you know, many of us can do with a little bit more of that energy. So, so I just, I just love her. And I really appreciate that I got to learn about her in this project.
Dr G 32:38 Oh, thank you for sharing.
Genn 32:41 Super uncontroversial. But like she’s also my favorite that I was super surprised by like, I’m very basic. Like I usually say my favorites Atlanta, because when I was 10 years old, finally able to read on my own, I had a long process to reading. I read this book of Greek myth, and there she was, you know, Atlanta, took no shit did what she wanted to do. Wasn’t going to marry anyone who wasn’t her equal. But I knew going in that that was the standard of what I was looking for. Right? When I was looking at these women’s stories, and a lot of the women whose stories we tell our warriors, but some are moms, some are children, some are goddesses of of tearing things up and starting over. But the one who really surprised me the most is also Oh, yeah. Because I don’t know. Like, they just as Jenny describes it every time every time I get to hear her say it. I’m like, Yeah, we all need more of that in our life. You know, like, we just let go or be dragged and I was like, okay.
Dr G 33:40 Yeah, don’t get stagnated, change is on its way.
Jenny 33:43 Don’t get stagnated. Exactly.
Dr Rad 33:46 Yeah, that definitely resonates. Because I think that we we do tend to be scared of change, and we kind of enjoy the comfort, even if bad situation is just that familiarity.
Jenny 33:56 Exactly. And like how it takes so much courage to change your situation, you know, in so many in so many ways. And so like having, like, I kind of see her as embodying that courage, you know?
Dr Rad 34:09 Yeah, absolutely. So this one might be a little bit easier to answer because we’re not asking you to rank your your women. But we were interested to hear because so many of these stories were actually unfamiliar to us because those were also sort of starting from a place of being more familiar with Greco-Roman traditions. But which woman in myth is you find had the most complex back story in your view?
Jenny 34:34 Oh, that’s a good one. Um, do you want to go first, Genn? Do you want me to go first?
Genn 34:40 Um, you go first because I’m thinking
Jenny 34:43 Okay,
Genn 34:44 That’s my like far away thinking face.
Jenny 34:50 Well done, Genn. Yeah. I would say for me, there’s this character. It’s actually two characters in one Amba and Shikhandi from the Mahabharata in India. The ancient Indian epic. And I this is one of the trans characters that I just completely fell in love with trans or you know non binary perhaps it’s a little bit hard to tell it depends on the source. But this character, I think, if I recall, right, I don’t exactly remember the order, but I saved them for either last or very close to last because I felt that it was a very complex topic to handle. And I wanted to really make sure that I did it right. And some of the complexity of it was talking about Shikhandi’s gender. So this is a story about reincarnation, basically. And it starts off with this woman, a cisgender woman named Amba, who is in love with this man and gets kidnapped by another man and basically has her life ruined by by this guy who kidnaps her because her original boyfriend or you know, lover wouldn’t marry her after she had been kidnapped, and then the guy who did the kidnapping wouldn’t marry her, because I guess he had a vow of some kind. And, you know, just kind of he just sort of casually destroyed this woman’s life. So she really just wanted to get revenge. But this was a renowned warrior, and nobody would side with her and help her get revenge on him. So she prayed about it in the forest, and one of the gods came to her and said that she would be able to successfully get revenge, but only in another lifetime. So she immediately built herself a funeral pyre and jumped into it so that she could hasten her own reincarnation. And eventually, depending on the sources, she may have gone through a number of lives before eventually being reborn as this character, Shikhandi, who their their gender is, either you could look at them as a transgender man or a transgender woman, or perhaps a non binary person, or perhaps a sis woman who just really doesn’t conform to expectations of cisgender women in that time, you know, like that. It’s very complicated, writing about it. But I really enjoyed learning about Shikhandi, and learning about, you know, gender, as told and described in this epic, and also like more modern depictions of Shikhandi and how their gender has been depicted throughout the years. And eventually, like, the cool thing about Shikhandi is that they become eventually the charioteer of this other really renowned warrior in the current shutter of war, which is featured in the Mahabharata. And they wind up just finding this this original person who had ruined his life and riddling them with arrows and taking epic revenge. And it’s just such a really great harrowing and gripping tale. And that just happens to involve a gender queer character from 1000s of years ago. And I really enjoyed that. And I found it, you know, a complex and challenging topic to cover. And for me, because I just wanted to make sure I was getting it right, but also just really, really fun to learn about.
Genn 37:52 Yeah, so mine is a little more recent, La Llorona, who is the Mexican wailing woman of mythology is super fascinating. And her history is so deeply rooted in the colonization of the of Mexico. And us, you know, her story stretches back to when, when Mexico was colonized by the by the Spanish, she started out her life as a, an Indigenous woman who is has a love affair with a Spanish guy. And at this particular point in time, this was very common. And a lot of Indigenous women had these, they were sort of like second spouse, spouses or relationships with these Spanish, Spanish men. And so what happens is this guy who has been professing his love for her, they have two children together, all of a sudden is like, hey, so I have to marry this other woman. And in addition to that, I’m going to take our kids because I think that it would be better for me to raise them and like, you can totally visit them and stuff, but I’m done with you. And so the, you know, the choice that is left to this woman, you know, is is not great. She out of grief and despair, drowns her children and usually kills herself. She’s usually found by a body of water. And a lot of her history is, you know, then she comes back and is sort of a, you know, a spectral spirit who, you know, takes children or, you know, will will drown you in the water. But all of that is so deeply tied to colonization and how women were treated. Like it was very common that comedy and Spanish conquerors would be conquerors. You know, Spanish colonizers would have affairs with Indigenous women and then take their children from them, because they didn’t believe that they were able to raise their own children. And the treatment of women was absolutely appalling and indigenous people in general and one of the other things about this mythology that Jenny helped me understand, because I didn’t know this, is that some of that folklore which now it has, like, its own sort of operas and its own sort of like place in the Day of the Dead celebrations, but some of it goes all the way back to the Aztec conquest. I’m gonna let you talk about that, Jenny, because you know it a lot more clearly than I do, even though I wrote the entry.
Jenny 40:21 Yeah.
Genn 40:22 I always confuse it.
Jenny 40:23 Well, I mean, I think just that that part of it is that there were Aztec goddesses that may have that that law, Your Honor, may have also had her roots in like, goddesses that involve child sacrifice in some way, or goddesses that were tied to water in some way. Some of this comes, like was written about in, you know, codices that record people who had lived through the siege of Tenochtitlan, for example, like accounts of, you know, signs importance of, of this siege, and some of them involved, you know, wailing women, for example, showing up at the streets of Tenochtitlan the night before, and wailing about their children, you know, dying or being in harm’s way. Some of this is less than trustworthy, because it comes from through a Spanish lends there were all these, you know, Spanish priests running around at a certain time, you know, in the decades after the conquest, interviewing Indigenous survivors of the of these events and writing these things down, but it was the priests writing them down. So how, and this also goes for some of the mythology around Ītzpāpālōtl too and we talk about that in her entry. how trustworthy that some of this stuff is, is a little bit up for interpretation, you know, and, like, questionable, but there, there is some, some documentation of that. So it’s possible that there that there were goddesses that, that lie, you’re gonna call us back to that have indigenous roots as well.
Genn 41:52 Yeah, as a foretelling of this doom, right?
Jenny 41:55 Yeah, like a doom foretelling. And that has to do with, you know, either death of children and death in the water, you know?
Dr G 42:03 Yeah, I look, I think you see those similar parallels coming through in like the tale of Medea, for instance. And it’s like, you know, this story of conquest, and people coming in and taking ownership of a place or assuming that somehow they, they, it’s theirs now, and what are the fallout consequences of that, and there is a long, long history of that kind of colonial violence. And it’s really good to see these stories coming through, because it emphasizes just how common it is, and also puts us situates us in the fight to going forward? Like, how do we do the processes that undo some of the problematic consequences of this kind of history as well? Like, how do we do it well, and I feel like there’s a long way to go. But I think there’s inherent value in the, in sharing these kinds of stories, just to reiterate just how common this kind of violence is, and also situating us in a in a position of action, what to do next.
Genn 43:00 And also, like, you know, one of the things you see is that it’s very much this mythology in particular is a psychic scar that you have on people who after, you know, after the horrors of colonization, they don’t there’s a lot of things we don’t have anymore as a result, but this story comes through, and it is one of those things that remains with us. And, you know, should be a way of telling us like, you know, this, the there’s just so much there that I’m not I’m not making any sense at the moment. It’s just it is like a psychic scar that does come through in the folklore that is, is there to, you know, continually remind us of the horrors of colonization?
Jenny 43:37 Yeah, like how these women were treated. And you know, how basically how the Spanish colonizers treated Indigenous women that they had relationships with?
Dr Rad 43:47 Definitely no, like, I think that that actually is a really good place to start to wrap up, because one of the things I was very impressed by when I looked inside instead of reading my copy of your book is that you guys were very restrained in that, even though I think when you probably started your podcast, you were focusing more on sort of Greco Roman world topics. And I’ve seen with your episodes that I’ve been listening to that you’ve gradually move beyond the sort of Greco Roman world and certainly in this book, I was very impressed that you were very restrained in the in the use of Greco Roman mythology, because I mean, you really could, you could easily populate, you know, 50 women from Greco Roman mythology if you wanted to in a book like this, but I was I was really blown away by the array of cultures that were on display. Is that something that you were exploring the podcast, and that sort of gave you the idea for the book or did the book kind of inform where you’ve taken the podcast?
Jenny 44:44 I think that Jen and I had both really wanted to move beyond Greco Roman stuff for a long time. I mean, our podcast is called Ancient History Fan Girl, not just Ancient Greco Roman History Fan Girl and yet for our first you know, couple years, we really stayed in that realm because and I think that it wasn’t something we did as a conscious decision, we just kept falling down these rabbit holes and like, the more we learned, the more we wanted, we found things we wanted to cover. And the more we got confident in this one area, and we get excited about things, and, you know, it was just really hard to wrench ourselves away. And we had, we realized, like, we had to make this conscious decision to do that. And we had been talking about how we were going to do it for a while when the opportunity to write this book came about. So it felt like a natural extension of expanding our horizons in that way, you know, but we had planned to do that already on the podcast, and we would have done it whether the book had happened or not. But I’m really glad we did it, because I think it gave us both, you know, kind of more of a, like, more of a global view on history as well as mythology because we talked about history, and how how the history and the mythology kind of meld in a lot of the entries that we did anyway. So
Genn 45:53 Yeah, everything that Jenny said, I think our podcast, because I have a deep and abiding love of Greco Roman mythology, sometimes stays in Greece in Rome a little too long. Not that Jenny doesn’t also but like that’s, that feels like my home to me. But one of the great things about this book is it forced us outside of that. And we had always planned to do that. And I think it really, it really broaden our horizons. And it sort of gave us a lot of confidence to be able to continue doing it. I also know that we did a season a couple of couple of seasons ago about gender in the ancient world. And when we finished that season, I was like Jenny, I am now broken. I need to leave Greece and Rome for a little bit of time. What can we do to get out of Greece and Rome? Because like,
Jenny 46:39 Yeah, we were both feeling a little bit like we just needed a scene shift, you know? So
Genn 46:46 Just watching the patriarchy be built. You’re like, yeah, no, I got it. What can we do that’s gonna just bring joy back to my life.
Jenny 46:52 And then we decided to cover ancient mysteries, which was basically like a lot of natural disasters and skeletons where they shouldn’t be so I don’t know how light that was?
Genn 47:06 Well, I think one of the things we did in the ancient mystery series that I’m incredibly proud of, I say it every time we talk about it is our first episode in that series is about the dating of the Sphinx, how old is this things? And we spent a lot of time in that series really digging into stuff that were actual mysteries, and then also stuff that maybe some TV channel or streaming service would like you to believe are mysteries for ancient alien reasons that aren’t. And I think it’s really easy for people who are sort of who follow things on those places to think like, Oh, I found this mystery because aliens built it or whatever, and not unpack the actual reality of the good work that archaeologists and historians and scientists and its ographers are doing to show you real mysteries and ask questions that aren’t about of colonization. Yeah, well, they are about colonization, but aren’t about you know, white washing other people’s history? Because,
Dr Rad 48:04 Yeah, that’s my biggest thing. I absolutely cannot stand it when my students come in and go, didn’t aliens build the pyramids and I’m like, shut your mouth right now. That is racist propaganda, whether you realize it or not.
Yeah.
Genn 48:18 We started with that episode. Jenny did such an amazing job of it of showing you how you can watch a documentary and you can listen to that very smart sounding documentary, and start going down this rabbit hole of, “Wait a minute aliens built this?”. Wait a minute, during a minute, have I just fallen down a racist rabbit hole? What happened? Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s kind of like when we started doing ancient mysteries, like, you can look at something like Göbekli Tepe, or, you know, different different, like, you know, monuments around the world. And if you recall, peyote makan is absolutely one of these Cahokia is one of these where you look at that, like, there, there are obviously extremely legitimate and fascinating mysteries around around these monuments, but there’s also, you know, kind of all this pseudo historical stuff built up around it. And we didn’t realize the extent to which we’d have to pick through that in that season. So the there’s an app, the first episode we dropped was the Sphinx 10,000 years old. And it’s kind of just talking about like, starting starting with like, how easy it is to if you are a lay person like Jen and me and you you are not like a scholar yourself in this stuff. And you’re just like, well, I don’t know, this guy has a PhD in the front of his name and he’s in all the same journals as the other guys. And so why is why is this illegitimate? You know, how would you know and you know, talking about how, how easy it is to to be sort of drawn in by that and then where you wind up is basically, the people who actually built this thing didn’t build these things. Maybe it was white people who are also from Atlantis. From Atlantis, racist Atlanta and also originally from Mars, and for some reason, all the Martians are white. Go Go big here. You know?
Dr G 50:01 It would explain a lot though, let’s face it, yeah, if the aliens were white.
Jenny 50:06 God. I mean,
Dr Rad 50:09 I think it’s also this very seductive idea that we have about humankind in that we have this idea that our story is one of progress that people 1000s of years ago couldn’t have done something super advanced because it was 1000s of years ago, and we must be smarter and you know, have come such a long way from then, that they can’t possibly have done these things, because that doesn’t make any sense. You know, like, we have to have this chronology and it’s like, no, they have the same capacity as us to reason to think to create, and because they’re from a different time and a different culture. Maybe they come up with different ideas and different solutions to problems. But yeah, humans are capable of pretty much the same thing. If they’re of the, you know, the same type of, you know, of humankind.
Jenny 50:59 Absolutely.
Genn 51:00 Yeah like the fact that we had flushing toilets in Skara Brae, which is a tiny little island village on the sort of falling into the sea on a Scottish island called, I don’t know if it’s on Stromness. Or if it’s up in the Orkneys. They have flushing toilets.
Jenny 51:16 Yeah.
Dr Rad 51:17 And I think that’s a great place to finish up. Because realistically, we can finish up by saying that by talking to Ancient History Fan Girl –
Genn 51:24 I should say it’s a it’s a new I should say it’s a Neolithic settlement. So like super super, super old.
Dr Rad 51:30 Yeah, no, definitely. No, I think I think it shows us that you know, all throughout our history humans have been like, what to do with shit. What to do with it?
Genn 51:37 Oh!
Dr Rad 51:39 We don’t like it.
Dr G 51:41 Where am I gonna put it, guys? I made some more.
Dr Rad 51:48 And so on that very sophisticated note, we’re going to wrap up this absolutely wonderful conversation with the fabulous co hosts of Ancient History Fan Girl – if you haven’t listened to it, and I can’t imagine that you haven’t. Please go and check it out. I’m going to a pass over to Genn and Jenny so they can tell you all about where to find them and also how to purchase this amazing book of theirs.
Jenny 52:09 Thank you so much. Our podcast is Ancient History Fan Girl. You can find us at Ancient His Fan on Twitter at Ancient History Fan Girl on Facebook and Instagram. We’re not really we’re on at oh, what’s our Tiktok name?
Genn 52:24 Ancient History Fan Girl.
Jenny 52:25 There we go. We’re also on TikTok.
Genn 52:27 Keep that brand consistent when they give me characters.
Jenny 52:29 Heck yes, you can find us on Tik Tok. And, yeah, our book “Women of Myth” is available basically wherever books are sold. If your indie bookstore doesn’t happen to have it, ask them to order it, I suppose. Is that how it works? I think so.
Genn 52:48 Yeah. And ask your library libraries are great. They’re free. Ask your library to order it in. They should be able to
Jenny 52:54 Interlibrary loan.
Genn 52:57 Exactly. It’s also available on audiobook we read it. Yeah. And as an ebook.
Jenny 53:03 You get to hear the dulcet tones of our voices.
Genn 53:07 We encourage physical copies because Sara’s illustrations are just incredible.
Dr Rad 53:12 Yeah, very vibrant. I can’t tell you how much we’ve enjoyed chatting to you today. And the thing that’s really put it over the top of me is that there’s actually been a pod cat in the background. I’ve just seen paws appearing at random times.
Dr G 53:27 Having a great little stretch. It’s been a wonderful show of, you know, napping and relaxation in the background.
Jenny 53:35 That’s exactly it. You know what’s so funny about that too, is that when we did our Spartacus episode one of your cats I don’t know which one it was was nuzzling up to the microphone and murmuring little cat sounds into it. And we kept it in there.
Dr G 53:50 I feel like that would have been Hamish.
Dr Rad 53:52 Yeah, I have. I have a cat that is deaf like me. And he does not respect boundaries.
Jenny 54:00 Fair and who would want him to I mean he’s a cat.
Dr Rad 54:06 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We won’t leave it so long in between episodes next time I think.
Jenny 54:12 Absolutely.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Partial Recap - 420s BCE
Jul 13, 2023
Another decade is gone and it’s time for a Partial Recap! We run through what the ancient sources tell us about this decade. There are some real highs and lows!
The Partial Recap 420s BCE
If you are keen to for some more detail, you can jump into our narrative episodes at 134 – A Dry Period.
A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum. Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.
Dr G: and this is our highlights edition of the 420s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 429 to 420 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
Dr Rad: Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – the Roman world is a violent one.
Dr G: Get ready for a recappuccino.
429 BCE
In 429 BCE, the consuls were Hostius Lucretius Tricipitinus and Lucius Sergius Fidenas
Who could forget this year? Well, apparently a lot of people could – nothing was recorded in some of our sources
For others, it might be an issue of confused dates and actually LOTS of things happened that sound very similar to the events of 428
428 BCE
In 428 BCE, the consuls were Aulus Cornelius Cossus and Titus Quinctius Poenus Cincinnatus
Or maybe Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and Aulus Sempronius Atratinus
Come on Romans, get your consuls straight!
Veii started muscling in on Roman turf, perhaps with some help from the Fidenates
The Romans assembled an elite task force to look into their involvement and some men from FIdenae found themselves banished to Ostia for being decidedly shifty
For a bit of extra security, more settlers were sent to the colony of Fidenae
Rome was then hit by a severe drought, which led to the spread of disease amongst cattle and the citizens
In desperation, some superstitions started to spread amongst the populace and had to be reined in
427 BCE
In 427 BCE, the consuls were Caius Servilius Structus Ahala and Lucius Papirius Mugillanus
Putting the tough times behind them, the ROmans felt well enough to seek revenge against Veii
But there’s a procedure to this people! Someone call the fetiales so they can call on Jupiter and get this ball rolling
426 BCE
In 426 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Titus Quinctius Poenus Cincinnatus, Caius Furius Pacilus Fusus, Marcus Postumius Albinus, and Aulus Cornelius Cossus – whew!
The military tribunes with consular power set about this war with Veii – but they didn’t play well together, leading to some humiliating results on the battlefield
Crushed and angry, the Romans turned to their favourite solution – a dictator!
Mamercus Aemilius was chosen by Cossus, and he chose Cossus to be his Master of the Horse – making them the cutest couple in Rome
Meanwhile, Veii was bragging about their recent success to anyone who would listen, and Fidenae agreed to join forces with them once again.
Lucky the Romans had Mamercus to whip them all into shape. He and his band of trusty helpers worked together like a well-oiled machine to grind their enemies into the dust!
Once more, Cossus was a standout in the battle and Mamercus received a triumph
If this all seems very familiar, it is. Suspiciously so!
Compare the events yourself by revisiting our episode on 437 BCE
425 BCE
In 425 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Aulus Sempronius Atratinus, L. Quinctius Cincinnatus, Lucius Furius Medullinus and Lucius Horatius Barbatus.
Nothing much happened!
The Veientes and the Aequians were each granted truces
424 BCE
In 424 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Appius Claudius Crassus, Spurius Nautius Rutilus, Lucius Sergius Fidenas, and Sextus Iulius Iullus.
Games were held and the Romans were exceedingly polite hosts.
The tribunes of the plebs found the whole scene in the city far too peaceful and started haranguing the populace
Why weren’t there any military tribunes with consular power who were plebeians? WHY? They were really sick of patrician domination, especially because it didn’t have to be that way.
Their words finally had some effect, with some brave plebeians stepping forward to run for office. Will we finally get a plebeian magistrate?
423 BCE
In 423 BCE, the consuls were Gaius Sempronius Atratinus and Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.
The year began with the unfortunate capture of the Etruscan city of Volturnum by the Samnites
The Etruscans, seemingly exhausted by the endless conflict of this time, allowed the Samnites to enter their city and settle there
Tragically, the Samnites had no intention of sharing Volturnum, and they massacred the Etruscans in the night.
The Romans and their allies had their own conflict to deal with
The Volscians were running up and down museum stairs, punching slabs of meat and generally getting ready to invade
Gaius Sempronius was placed in charge of the Roman forces and felt very confident that Fortune would ensure victory
Unfortunately, Fortune did not organise the Roman army effectively and it looked as though they were going to loose – badly.
At this moment, a plucky plebeian decurion named Sextus Tempanius stepped forward. His incredible efforts and clever strategies with the cavalry helped to turn the tide of this almost impossibly lengthy battle
When he manages to return safely to Rome, Tempanius was celebrated but also put on the stand by one of the tribunes of the plebs, Caius Iunius.
Iunius grills Tempanius about Sempronius’ leadership – or lack thereof – but Tempanius refused to turn on his commander. This guy could do no wrong
Iunius was not restricting his attention to Sempronius
The failure of Sempronius opened the door for the tribune to put some other patricians on trial.
Marcus Postumius and Titus Quinctius, the brother of the great Cincinnatus, were tried for their underwhelming efforts at Veii a few years earlier
In a surprise twist, Quinctius totally stabbed Postumius in the back and blamed him for everything. Postumius received a hefty fine, whilst Quinctius walked away unscathed – although this may have had something to do with the fact that Cincinnatus was dying and no one could bear to disgrace his family in his final days!
422 BCE
After all the patrician scandal of the previous year, the Senate wisely decided upon military tribunes with consular power in 422.
The magistrates were Lucius Manlius Capitolinus, Q. Antonius Merenda and Lucius Papirius Mugillanus
There were also some new tribunes of the plebs, elected due to their heroics during the battle against the Volscians in 423 BCE – Sextus Tempanius, Marcus Asellius, Tiberius Antistius and Tiberius Spurillius.
One of the other tribunes, Lucius Hortensius, decided to prosecute Sempronius for his PATHETIC leadership against the Volscians – I think we all saw that one coming.
And so began a highly contentious debate – Sempronius: Cool Dude or Total Douchebag?
The other tribunes were not keen on this idea at all and tried to talk Hortensius out of the prosecution – Sempronius wasn’t bad, he’s just drawn that way!
After some serious arguments and slappy fighting, Hortensius finally conceded that Sempronius must be a pretty cool dude for people to care about him so passionately. Congrats Sempronius, on not being a total douchebag – at least officially.
The tribunes also score a win due to this whole affair – for once, everyone is very impressed with the way that they have conducted themselves. Hmm… is it weird that everyone loves the tribune of the plebs the most when they are letting a patrician off the hook?
And right at the end of the year, we abruptly switch from civil affairs to a military threat – this time coming from the Aequians….
421 BCE
In 421, the consuls were Numerius Fabius Vibulabus and Titus Quinctius Capitolinus
Fabius was sent off to war with the Aequians, but it seems like the Aequians weren’t really committed to this conflict and the whole battle was a bit of a cake-walk for the Romans and brought Fabius no glory whatsoever.
Just when it seemed like everything was settling down – the consuls had the GALL to ask for more administrative help – specifically, they wanted two more city quaestors.
Never ones to miss an opportunity, the tribune of the plebs pushed for half of the quaestors to be plebs – can we please stop giving the patricians everything???
The consuls and senate absolutely refused to give an inch – they’d rather DROWN in paperwork than let the plebs get a look in!
The tribune of the plebs therefore turned their attention to an agrarian law, which did not put the Senate at ease.
Thus, the Senate wanted to have consuls in charge, whilst the tribunes wanted military tribunes with consular power
The tribunes used their veto power to block consular elections, leading to an interreges
The chronology gets a little confusing here and it’s not clear where 421 ends and 420 begins, but it seems the the Roman state was in danger of falling apart.
Finally, Lucius Papirius Mugillanus was elected as interrex. Papirius tells off the senators AND the tribunes for being so stubborn and making Rome vulnerable to external attack.
He ends up getting everyone to agree to a compromise – the number of quaestors would be increased and they could be elected from either the patrician or plebeian class.
420 BCE
In 420 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, Titus Quinctius Poenus Cincinnatus, Lucius Furius Medullinus, Marcus Manlius, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus – all patricians, AGAIN
Atratinus was put in charge of elections for the quaestorship
Some of the plebeian candidates were well-connected, with relationships to previous tribunes.
When their family connections did not trump the consular connections of the patrician candidates, they called FRAUD- seeing Atratinus as the architect of the situation
However, Atratinus was a military tribunes and therefore untouchable.
His relative, Gaius Sempronius, was not. The tribunes of the plebs decided to go after him for the shocking Volscian campaign of 423 BCE.
The tribunes then tried to stitch Sempronius up by pushing again for an agrarian law – something he was known to oppose. If he continued to oppose the law, the plebs would hate him. If he didn’t, the patricians might not support his case as much.
Sempronius put the state before himself, of course, which meant that he was pretty much dead to the plebs. Even with the senate’s support, he ended up with a fine for 15 000 asses.
420 BCE was also the year of a Vestal trial. Postumia was accused of unchastity because she dressed a little to alluring and joked around far too much. Lucky for her, she was found innocent but the pontifex maximus still laid down the law – higher necklines and no more jokes for you!
To cap off the year, the Greek-controlled city of Cumae was captured by the Campanians – suggesting that there was some interesting movement of peoples taking place in this period.
Dr Rad: And that was the 420s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
Dr G: Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes. Jump in at Episode 134: A Dry Period to join us for a deep dive into the 420s BCE.
Dr Rad: Thanks for turning in to this Partial Recap!
The Trials of Sempronius and Postumia
Jul 06, 2023
The Partial Historians are back in the 420s BCE and we are wrapping up the decade with some first-class DRAMA! At the centre of it all are the trials of Sempronius and Postumia. The only question is, can you handle it?
Episode 139 – The Trials of Sempronius and Postumia
Fake Elections
The year began with some classic conflict between the patricians and the plebeians. The tribunes of the plebs were FURIOUS when their relatives did not get elected as quaestors. There was only one possible explanation – election fraud!
There was clearly one man to blame: Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. He had been in charge of overseeing the elections and he had rigged the results. Unfortunately, he was also a military tribune and therefore immune from prosecution. But that didn’t mean that his relatives were…
The Trial of Sempronius
The tribunes set their sights on Atratinus’ cousin, Gaius Sempronius. Sempronius was the perfect target. He had been in charge of a DISASTROUS military campaign in 423 BCE. Time for vengeance!
Jean Lemaire c. 1645-1655. Roman Senators and Legates. The picture shows senators walking though a square attended by lictors. Maybe they’re on their way to a trial!
Poor Postumia
Sempronius was not the only person to find themselves on trial in 420 BCE. A Vestal Virgin named Postumia was accused of incestum. Apparently, her clothing was a bit too sexy, and she had a sense of humour. What a horrible combination! Think of the children!
However, incestum was a very serious charge as it put the Romans’ relationship with the gods in jeopardy. It was no joke for Postumia either. Charges like this could lead to live burial for a Vestal.
Tune in to find out whether Sempronius and Postumia manage to emerge victorious from their respective trials.
A modern imagining of Vestal Virgin by sculptor Joseph-Charles Marin 1791-95. Courtesy of Mary Harrsch on Flickr.
Things to Look Out For:
Clear signs of our Partiality
Lengthy digressions on work apparel
Red lipstick and mini skirts
Patrician morality par excellence
Family rivalry
Immense excitement to find a woman in our story – at last!
Dr G’s immense expertise on Vestal Virgins
Need a recap on Sempronius? Check out our previous episodes on 423 BCE and 422-21 BCE.
Our Players 420 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 438, 425
T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat) Cos. 431, 428a, Mil. Tr. c. p. 426
L. Furius Sp. f. -n. Medullinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 432, 425
M. Manlius – f. – n. Vulso (Pat)
A. Sempronius L. f. A. n. Atratinus (Pat) Cos. 428b, Mil. Tr. c. p. 428, 416
Tribunes of the Plebs
A. Antistius
Sex. Pompilius
M. Canuleius
Interrex
L. Papirius Mugillanus (Pat) Cos. 427, Mil. Tr. c. p. 422
Pontifices
Sp. Minucius
Vestal Virgin
Postumia
Our Sources
Dr G reads Plutarch, de Capienda 89f.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.44.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Sound effects thanks to Pixabay, Fesliyan Studios and BBC Sounds.
A statue of a Vestal Virgin in the atrium Vestae (house of the Vestals) in Rome. Courtesy of Carole Raddato via Wikimedia Commons.
Automated Transcript
An automated transcript of this episode has been provided thank to Otter AI.
Dr Rad 00:16
Welcome to the partial historians,
Dr G 00:20
we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 00:23
Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 00:34
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 00:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 01:06
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 01:16
And I am Dr. Red and I’m in a very special t shirt today. Dr. G. My All, roads lead to Rome t shirt.
Dr G 01:26
Are you hoping to sneak into my suitcase to come on a certain trip?
Dr Rad 01:30
I’m just dropping subtle hints.
Dr G 01:34
If I can fit you, I’ll take you.
Dr Rad 01:36
Excellent. Excellent.
Dr G 01:37
So we have been tracing the history of Rome from the foundation, the traditional foundation date of 753 BCE. And in our last episode, I think if I remember rightly, we were dealing with 422 BCE, (and 421) and 421. So yeah, go we covered a lot of ground, because I remember the four horsemen being very- they were stand out for me. So this means that we’re going to be talking about we’re starting at 420. So real shame that we didn’t record this in April.
Dr Rad 02:15
Yes, yes, that’s absolutely right. We are recording about 420 today. So to briefly recap, 422 and 421, which is our previous episode, we’re interested in good ol conflicts of the orders. Dr. G.
Dr G 02:30
Oh, yes. Well, I love a good conflict of the orders. hasn’t this been going on for centuries now?
Dr Rad 02:36
Not quite centuries, almost a century I think. Only there were nearly there. We still got, you know, a couple of centuries to go. It’ll fly by the flyway. We won’t, we won’t be dead at all. By the time we finish.
Dr G 02:51
Everything seemed to swill around the situation with Sempronius, one of the guys that’s been sent out with some troops, and he’s done seemingly a poor job. And he’s then been taken on to trial for being such a bad general. And all of his, all of his lower down cavalry commanders have come to his aid being like, this guy was great. And he did the best he could in a tough situation.
Dr Rad 03:16
Yeah, absolutely. So we do have the situation with Sempronius, which is fallout from seemingly a not great military encounter that Rome had with the Volscians in 423 Sempronius, the unfortunate and perhaps incompetent leader of said military effort, and we’re dealing with the fallout of that. And definitely we saw that some of his men came to his assistance when it looked like he was going to be in danger of being prosecuted or something like that. And then we had even more conflict of the orders. I mean, that wasn’t really conflict for the orders, except that it was interesting that it was this fight happening with Tribune’s of the plebs who were our four horsemen, and they’d been involved in the battle in the previous year. And then Sempronius, who was a patrician, we then got more explicitly into the conflict of the orders in the following year, where we had this debate about could a plebeian become a quaestor? And we had so many interreges, they were coming out of our ears, Dr. G.
Dr G 04:18
And it’s been a really weird time. Rome is definitely trying to figure itself out politically, militarily. It’s been a rough ride.
Dr Rad 04:27
Yeah, it really has. But there was the resolution was they ended up coming full circle. And going back to the compromise that was put forward, right at the beginning of this debate, which was that you can have a plebeian quaestor. Sure, as in they can run for election, but Will anybody vote for them? Time will tell Dr. G.
Dr G 04:49
Are they gonna be able to put together a sophisticated and well funded campaign? Doubtful. No.
Dr Rad 04:55
All right, we’ll see yeah that’s really all we need to know about 421 So let’s go into 420 V c
Dr G 05:30
so 420 BCE for key listeners who enjoy the smoking of the green leaf now is your time to light up because this is happening all year. We have military tribunes with consular power and many of them I might add our first cab off the rank is Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus a family we know well, yes, the lineage is continuing. And he’s had a couple of positions ahead of this one so we’ve seen this guy before. He is not a surprise. Now. We also have Lucius Furius Medullinus, also previously has appeared and most recently served together with Cincinnatus as another military Tribune in 425. Yeah, so they’ve been buddies before and here they are, again, five years later.
Dr Rad 06:33
Lovely. It’s cute. Yeah,
Dr G 06:36
We also have Marcus Manlius Vulso, a man for which I don’t have any more detail than his name.
Dr Rad 06:43
No, that is that’s an unusual name that level so isn’t it?
Dr G 06:48
Yeah, I’m not sure it is. I’ve heard before Yeah. Well, so it’s not standing out for me one way or the other. We might have encountered one in the past but I’m not sure.
Dr Rad 06:56
Yeah, the Manlius I recognise.
Dr G 06:59
The Manlius gens, they’re doing well for them. Yeah, very manly all the way down their line. Yeah. And then Aulus Sempronius Atratinus. Also, previously a consul in 428. And also apparently a military tribune in the same year.
Dr Rad 07:18
Excellent. So getting the gang back together.
Dr G 07:21
Yay. So there are military Tribune’s and then I also have some tribune of the plebs as well. Oh, we have Aulus Antistius, potentially a relation of Tiberius Antistius, the plebeian tribune of 422. So we get another one of the same gens coming through Sextus Pompilius. Yep. Most famous because of the Pompilius gens, which means you definitely of Sabine extraction. Yeah. And Marcus Canulinus, and this is known as a plebeian gens.
Dr Rad 08:05
Why ,I have him as Marcus Canuleius.
Dr G 08:09
it might just be my mispronunciation. I mean, I have clearly two variant spellings in my notes. Now that I know that I’m looking closely at them. So apparently the most famous bearer of the Canuleius name was Gaius Canuleius who was tripped into the plebs in 445. So somebody that we have encountered before, and is the one who introduced the plebiscite on a marriage the repeal to ban the marriage between patricians and plebeians.
Dr Rad 08:46
Well, that’s right. I was like I was looking at that name going, it’s so familiar. That’s a huge thing to have in your family.
Dr G 08:53
He’s Yeah, so this guy seems to be a comes from the same gens as that really famous tribune of the plebs from a couple of decades ago at this point, and the family seems to lose prominence after that. So this I don’t know if this is the last Canuleius we’re gonna see but-er, You heard it here first.
Dr Rad 09:14
Well, they’re hanging in it. They’ve got they’ve got a fingernail
Dr G 09:19
clutching on to the tribune of the plebs for dear life.
Dr Rad 09:22
Yeah, this is where I think 421 and 420 get a bit blendy because I also have an interrex listed for this year, which is Lucius Papirius Mugillanus who we talked about in our last episode, because he’s the one that came in and like, stop this madness. We can’t keep having all these interreges. This is crazy.
Dr G 09:45
This is madness. I indeed also have Mugillanus down as interrex for this year. But also, and I have to say, most excitingly, I also have a Pontifex Maximus and a Vestal virgin.
Dr Rad 09:58
I know I have not bothered to do any reading about this because I know that I’ve got the world leading expert on Vestals and I was like, I don’t need to do anything.
Dr G 10:11
I’m happy to take the reins on this tale of woe such as it is.
Dr Rad 10:15
Exactly. Which means you finally have you know, source material. Very exciting.
Dr G 10:20
Look, you’d be surprised about how little I have even.
Dr Rad 10:25
I’m on board whenever you have.
Dr G 10:26
It is a tough year. I’m in a really fellow section in terms of source material. As you know, Dionysius of Halicarnassus is perenially missing and even Diodorus Siculus, who is unreliable at the best of times, but we do like him is also currently unavailable. So
Dr Rad 10:42
that’s okay, you know, it’s actually this year is actually structured well for us in that most of the action that you wouldn’t be aware of happens first, then we get to the Vestal.
Dr G 10:52
Okay, that’s exciting. So I’ll just tell you the names of these characters and yeah, well let you get into like the the main action for the year which I’m completely at, like lacking. So we’ve got Spurius Minucius is our Pontifex Maximus. Yeah, and our festival virgin is Postumia.
Dr Rad 11:14
Okay, exciting times. Alright, so let me tell you about 420 BC Dr. G. Nobody remembered anything because of all that stuff they were smoking – no, I’m just kidding.
Dr G 11:27
that explains a lot about what’s going on with my source material.
Dr Rad 11:31
So allegedly, we had this period, unfortunately, we’re on there where there are and maybe the 420. Who knows where there were lots of interreges, but they managed to resolve that situation. And at the end of that whole process, they come out with military tribunes with consular power. And it’s all patricians all the time, Dr. G.
Dr G 11:51
Colour me surprised. I’m shocked. I’m really shocked.
Dr Rad 11:55
I know. So one of these military tribunes with consular power Atratinus Atratinus What do we prefer?
Dr G 12:03
Oh, look, I like Atratinus. But that’s just me really. Don’t feel wedded the fact that we learned Latin in Australia, it’s probably means that we’re butchering it a lot. Certainly, I know others would pronounce it differently.
Dr Rad 12:21
Like there’s nothing I enjoy more than butchering an ancient language. All right, I’ll go to Atratinus or Atratinus then oversees the election of quaestors which had been the sore point the previous year in terms of who gets to be a quaestor and that sort of thing. So there were some keen for plebeians in the race so the tribunes finally be like Yes, finally someone’s actually running for something – amazing!
Dr G 12:47
they got up and said like we’re going to abolish the whole thing because you none of you are even trying what’s the point of view even having a chance
Dr Rad 12:55
Exactly. You’re embarrassing us you’re embarrassing the whole day in class, whatever that is. One of them was a guy called Aulus Antistius. Son of a tribune of a pleb No, son of a tribune of the plebs.
Dr G 13:13
Okay, so the Antistius that I have listed down as the tribune of the plebs is quite possibly either running for quaestor as well, or running for quaestor instead?
Dr Rad 13:25
I would say it’s probably his son. Yeah, I would say it his son.
Dr G 13:31
Okay. Somebody lower down on our hypothetical cursus honorum that we don’t exist.
Dr Rad 13:36
And then and then we also have a brother of a tribune of a tribunes of the plebs, the brother of Sextus Pompilius.
Dr G 13:43
Oh, what’s his name?
Dr Rad 13:44
I don’t know. Actually, it just says it’s just as his brother. I mean, yeah.
Dr G 13:50
Pompilius the other one, we’ll call him Pompilius Secundus.
Dr Rad 13:54
Bro Pomp. Bro Pompey, that’s what we’re going to call him. Yeah, so though these guys are obviously connected to people in power, because you know, they have these connections with guys who have either held the office of Tribune or are currently holding the office of Tribune. The people still couldn’t resist the lure, the glow, that was coming off the patrician candidates because they have the blood of mighty consuls running in their veins. I mean, you can see it in their blue veins.
Dr G 14:30
When I get a wound on the front, little consuls come out instead of blood drops.
Dr Rad 14:38
That’s exactly right. So as a result, they don’t get to look in. They ran and they fail.
Dr G 14:44
Damn, what are we going to see some power to the people around you is
Dr Rad 14:48
what kicks off the problem because the tribune of the plebs are ropable, particularly Antistius and Pompilius understandably, because they like
Dr G 14:59
yeah They were pretty invested
Dr Rad 15:01
the hell like our guys are just as connected as the other guys. This is actually a burn to us. We feel it we feel it because it’s like an insult that their connections to us is somehow not the same as a console we’re not good enough for you. Like you only have to have certain kinds of connections in this world deaths guesting Okay, so they’re not happy at all that like the tribune of the plebs have done so much for Rome. They serve so well. And what about the politicians? They are douchebags they’ve done nothing.
15:42
They screw up all the time.
Dr Rad 15:44
The patricians were such douchebags How could no plebeian ever be chosen military military tribute with concealed power? And now also not be chosen as frickin quaestor? What, I’m not good enough to do your paperwork?
Dr G 16:00
Look, I think this might in part be related to the way voting is conducted in the ancient Roman world. And I’ll caveat this being like, like everything with this period of Roman history, we don’t know much, for sure. But the voting system as it develops, seems to really be a top down approach. So everybody who’s there, who is a citizen who is male gets to have a vote, and that’s fine, but you’re voting in groups. And those groups are voted from the most senior, and hence the most patrician down, and it’s first pass the post. So by the time anybody might even be thinking about bringing in a vote for a plebeian candidate, chances are all the positions have been filled by patricians voting in their buddies.
Dr Rad 16:48
Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly it. So I don’t know why there’s no outrage. It’s like the system’s rigged against you
Dr G 16:52
guys. Yeah, the system is rigged. That’s that’s entirely the point. Yeah, exactly. But
Dr Rad 16:56
they, they just can’t get over it. Because they’re like, they obviously had campaigned hard on behalf of their relatives. So like, we were personally campaigning, personally asking people for them to vote for our relatives, our son, our brother. Okay. How is this possible that after everything we’ve done for the people, it hasn’t worked? And their conclusion is this strategy. There is no doubt about it. Aulus Sempronius Atratinus has done something dodgy, in fact, a fake election, someone called fake election here.
Dr G 17:35
I’m here to tell you that these results will not stand because they cannot. Somebody made them up.
Dr Rad 17:42
I was. So it actually, I laughed. And then I felt sad when I read this because I was like, Oh, my God, the fact that painful? Yeah, like fake elections is
Dr G 17:53
it’s kind of like the oldest trick in the book, which is why you have to have a rigorous independent body overseeing electoral process. The only way to get it done right. Yeah.
Dr Rad 18:01
And to be fair, it’s not that in the past, there haven’t been people who have tried to fake elections or people who have successfully faked elections.
Dr G 18:11
Are you telling me that corruption is baked into the human condition?
Dr Rad 18:14
I just thought I should caveat that with the fact that I’m more sceptical of claims to fake elections, because I live in the age of Trump just in case anybody’s listening to this in 15 years. And I don’t for a second believe that elections in America have been faked. Like now. But I acknowledge that Sure. There have in the past been such things.
Dr G 18:36
Yeah, historically, there have been cases of fraudulent elections and, you know, not dissimilar to things that we’ve seen across the 20th and even the 21st century, in some situations, but not we would note in the US,
Dr Rad 18:51
yeah, I just think that Trump is a very dangerous person, and that’s probably why it’s not getting elected. God, God can only hope that it continues that way.
Dr G 19:00
Time will tell Yeah.
Dr Rad 19:03
political stance over
Dr G 19:07
Just a little excerpt on our own leftism again.
Dr Rad 19:10
You know, these days, I don’t even think it’s leftism, I just think it’s called being sane and recognise, recognising a dangerous precedent when you see them, Ah judgments, judgments, judgments. Anyway. So unfortunately, the tribunes couldn’t really do anything about this situation. They can’t go after Atratinus. Not just because he’s smugly, sitting there pretending that he’s innocent, blah!, but also because he is a military tribune with consular power, and therefore his office affords him some protection.
Dr G 19:44
Oh, does it now. Well, he should have Imperium, but it doesn’t mean that he’s body’s inviolable. Now somebody could run up to him and punch him in the face.
Dr Rad 19:53
If only someone would do that to Donald Trump. No, don’t make him a martyr, leave him untouched. Anyway, so instead, the tribunes decide to go to go after Atratinus’ cousin who is our old friend Gaius Sempronius from 423.
Dr G 20:17
When in doubt return to the guy that failed on the battlefield as if he hasn’t experienced enough humiliation.
Dr Rad 20:23
He thought he got away with it but not this time. So they decided they’re going to prosecute him with the help of another Tribune, one Marcus Canuleius for his conduct in the war against the Volsci. The Tribunes also decided they’re going to bring up the way that the Senate is splitting up the public lands because Gaius Sempronius had always been against this – shocker. Against the splitting up of public lands in a particular way – what?
Dr G 20:57
Yeah, I mean, we’re really playing into the stereotypes this year out, we goodness me patricians. What are you doing to yourselves?
Dr Rad 21:04
Well, the reason why they brought this up, it’s very strategics. Very clever, actually very devious. They know that he’s held this stance on public lands. And so what they’re hoping is it’ll be like a red rag to a bull. They’re thinking he’s going to either act a certain like he’s going to a couple of ways he could either maintain his attitude that he’s historically held, and therefore, piss off the plebeians, which will obviously probably not work in his favour with this whole prosecution thing, right,
Dr G 21:33
considering they’re coming after him because they’re already annoyed. Yes, yeah,
Dr Rad 21:37
exactly. Or he would back down on this issue, and the patricians would be like class traitor, and stop caring about him.
Dr G 21:46
I see the own political wedge. All right. Yeah. I’m excited to see which way he goes.
Dr Rad 21:52
Okay. So Sempronius decides that it’s most important to do right by Rome. To hell with his own future.
Dr G 22:03
That is not revealing about what his stance is going to be
Dr Rad 22:06
okay. So you basically says To hell with my own future, I’m going to stick to my guns over the land issue. So he goes with Option A. He doesn’t want the tribunes to get any credit for anything that they’re doing here. So he points out that the tribunes actually have been very cynical themselves. They’re actually care about the division of public lands. They’re just using this to get him so he sees through their plan because he’s also deviously clever.
Dr G 22:37
I mean, he would say that though, but historically, the tribune of the plebs have always been interested in land redistribution. So there’s an easy comeback for that claim.
Dr Rad 22:46
I know. I’m like well, okay, like maybe maybe they are being very clever in the way that they use this issue. But there’s a reason that they bring it up because you’ve spoken on this issue in the past. It is an ongoing issue, Sempronius. Anyway, so he decides I’m not going to be cowed. He says they can try all their dirty tricks, stupid tribunes. I think they’re so clever. But I I am brave. I am patrician. I will not back down not for one second.
Dr G 23:17
A man’s asking for a punch in the face.
Dr Rad 23:20
Exactly. Well, I mean, yes, but of course the patricians are just like we’re falling even more in love with you. Sempronius
Dr G 23:27
Oh, no,
Dr Rad 23:28
I just gonna gaze into those cold, lacking in empathy eyes and
Dr G 23:34
be like, That’s my man. That’s my patrician right there.
Dr Rad 23:38
And he says the Senate should not value me or any individual so much that they aren’t making the right choices for Rome. They should always be acting in Rome’s best interests. Okay. So getting even more selfless by the second.
Dr G 23:57
Well, and there’s a nice sort of didacticism built into that. I shouldn’t say didacticism get all of my syllables out. Well, I’m gonna say something. Because part of what is happening here is this is kind of like a training manual for patricians, in some respect, this kind of source material, because it’s, it’s like, well, if you want to be in this very elite group, part of what you have to do is you have to decide what’s best for Rome. And they don’t make this sort of critical distinction that maybe what’s best for Rome might also just always be what’s best for them as as the elite, but this idea that somehow the way that you frame things rhetorically is around what is best for the city, and hence for
Dr Rad 24:42
everything. Yeah, exactly. So Sempronius then has to trot off to his trial. Let’s see how this works out for him. So he decides to defend himself naturally. I mean, who could do a better job clever? Yeah. Although of course, this is not a is not necessarily super unusual in ancient Rome and standards like usually, if you’re watching a television show these days, and a character makes a choice to defend themselves. It’s either because they’re a hero and a genius, or they’re the villain.
Dr G 25:14
Yeah, they either know everything about the law and they gotta be fine. Or they do nothing about the the law and it’s going to be a spectacular failure.
Dr Rad 25:23
I mean, obviously, as you say, we can’t really speak to what’s going on in room at this point in time in terms of exactly what it patricians education looks like. But if I’m using what I know from later on, he would be trained in public speaking, and he would have some experience with rhetoric. So
Dr G 25:38
he would Yeah, he would not only have that rhetorical training, one would assume but also be well versed in the laws at play. So that’s part of that’s part of the elite education if you like, so. Yeah,
Dr Rad 25:52
yeah, exactly. So the senators, of course, because they love him so much, because he’s just been super honourable and selfless throughout this whole affair. As far as they’re concerned. They tried very hard to soften the plebs up before a vote, you know, for his verdict is rendered, however, it doesn’t work. Yay. And so he ended up being fined 15,000. mighty fine asses.
Dr G 26:21
Yes, a, it sounds like a significant sum, but it is. I guess. Maybe it is.
Dr Rad 26:30
A decent sum if we think that we don’t sound like a reasonable amount of money to be fine. Yeah, it is a decent sum. If we think about we actually had a trial not that long ago, when again, when we were dealing with the aftermath of 423 in the spectacular mess that Sempronius made, there was another patrician who found themselves on trial, Postumius for his conduct in battle from a few years before 423. And he was fined 10,000 assets, so
Dr G 26:54
Okay. All right. So there’s more it is this is this is upping the ante in terms of fining?
Dr Rad 27:00
Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. Anyway, so that is I hope the last we hear Sempronius Because he has been haunting us.
Dr G 27:10
He’s had a rough trot these last few years. Yeah, I guess we’ll he will have to pay his fine. Either that or he runs away to try and find a way out of it. Stay tuned.
Dr Rad 27:19
Yeah, exactly. Now, this is where I segue to a Vestals story, huh? Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so we’ve got a Vestal virgin being charged with unchastity and I’m not gonna say any more, I’m gonna let you tell me.
Dr G 27:37
All right, so our key characters at play here is the Pontifex Maximus, Spurius Minucius, and a Vestal virgin Postumia. So we can assume that she comes from the Postumius gens. So one of these elite patrician families, and that’s fine. But she finds herself and we don’t know, quite initially, like how that might happen. It doesn’t seem to be attached necessarily to the other politics that’s going on. But it is often the case that the way that Vestal virgins are treated, does link in to the other politics that their family members and gens colleagues are experiencing
Dr Rad 28:16
Well, funnily enough, I mean, we were just talking about whatever we do have a Postumius. Yeah, yeah. And he was just he was just found himself in trouble and was fine, like, not long before. And I actually think I think we were talking about the fact that it seems like there actually are some problems with the Postumius family, at this point in the republic in terms of they seem to be, I think it’s them in and the other family that they’re allied to, which I think is the Sempronii. Maybe it’s one of them. But anyway, yeah, it seems like the Postumii and their their allies might have been going through a bit of a tough time and potentially been involved in some sort of rivalry for who’s going to be the preeminent patrician ganz in Rome at this point in time.
Dr G 28:58
Yeah. And it seems like one of the things that can happen to Vestal virgins is that they get dragged into that broader politics, which makes sense. They’re elite women, drawn from elite families, and they have a legacy of continuity, that is not the same as what happens for the male members of their family. So what we what we tend to see in the political arena directly is that people hold posts for about a year. They get brought in, they do their thing, and they flew back out again, and there’s a new set of elections and some new patricians come in. Yes, and you can have repeats of people over the years, that’s fine. But there is always a system of choosing them. Again, it’s not like they have a legacy where they just keep going, not in this period of Rome’s history, but for vestals. It’s quite different because they’re selected for ritual purposes. And even though ritual purposes is always sort of in a relationship with political purpose, their choosing is done very differently and The length of time that they’re in their role is very different as well. So they’re chosen quite young, between the ages of six and 10. And they serve for a minimum of 30 years in the role. And these are visibly public women in the sense that they have things that they are tasked to do that they have to be present in the public space for. And this is not to suggest that Roman women in general weren’t in the public space. They definitely were. But people are expecting to see the Vestals at certain events, they have
Dr Rad 30:34
a they have an actual public role to perform. And then
Dr G 30:38
they’re not just out and about doing some shopping or going from place to place and things like that, you know, they’re, they’ve got a place to be, and I’ve got a task to do. And their relationship to the gods is an important one for ensuring the broader Pax deorum that Rome subscribes to, which is to be in right relationship with the divine. Yeah, and
Dr Rad 31:00
certainly compared to other elite women. And like, I think we can agree that obviously, the lower down the class you go, the less anybody cares, like what you do in terms of what that you know, how you’re conducting yourself in public. But for our leet women of this time, it would seem that the ideal is for them to be quite circumspect with their behaviour in public and certainly to have a level of seclusion to their lives, in terms of who they’re interacting with, what time of day, they’re interacting with people and that kind of stuff.
Dr G 31:30
Yeah, definitely. And women sort of fall under the protection of their partner familiarise, generally speaking. So this means that those women are under the power of a broader father figure that might be their direct father, it might be the grandfather further up, whoever is the chief man of the family at that point in time, or is the oldest guy, but the Vestals it’s a little bit different, because once they are brought into the Vestal virgin fold, they are removed from their natal family in a technical sense, which is interesting. But it’s obviously an also an incomplete kind of process, because it’s not like they changed their name or anything. They retain the name that is suggestive of the gins they belong to. So everybody knows which family they come from. Sure, but there’s a sort of technicality where they no longer fall under the potestas of their pater familiarise. They now fall under the potestas of their Pontifex Maximus.
Dr Rad 32:27
Yes. Still a man in the picture.
Dr G 32:30
There’s always a man in the picture.
Dr Rad 32:32
Yeah, certainly, as you’ve highlighted, particularly as we go later, in time in Rome’s history, we still see them having family loyalty and being, as you said, being caught up in family affairs, and I checked it, it was the Postumius and the Quinctii that I was talking about. But yeah, as you say, they do still have those ties to their birth families. Yeah.
Dr G 32:56
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you can take the kid out of the family, but can you take the family out of the kid? So Postumia is going around doing her business, but she does find herself accused of this crime that’s very particular called in incestum, which is often translated as unchastity, because we really don’t have a good word to describe the semantic field, for incestum in English. Unchastity sounds unwieldy? And indeed it is. So incestum, this covers both sort of behaviours, it covers appearance, and there’s a sense in which it ties into broader social concepts about morality, basically, and it’s like, are you behaving in the right kind of way? Are you appearing in the right kind of way? Do you seem to have a modest connection between the way you are in the world and the way that people perceive you, and it sort of functions as covering everything from the thoughts of the person involved, to the way in which they behave with their body in the physical realm, right, so it covers all sorts of things. So in custom is often thought about as just being a loss of virginity, but it covers much more than that, okay. And we can see that instantly when it comes to Postumia, because what she’s accused of is basically adorning herself in a way that suggests that, you know, she’s a little bit open and free in her demonstration of her personality. She has she is described in Plutarch as having a ready laugh and over bold talk when she’s in men’s company. Now, it might be the case that she also has already laugh, over bold talk when she’s in women’s company, but the men aren’t paying attention to that. So that’s not what she’s accused of. It may just be her personality,
Dr Rad 34:53
a woman having a personality I don’t think so. That’s not appropriate. Please put that away. Nobody wants to see it here.
Dr G 35:01
that personality, she seems to be having a good time at this party and I cannot abide by that something must be going wrong. Exactly. Yeah. So the other thing that she’s got going on is that she has a push on for dressing attractively goodness knows what that means. Chances are she’s just dressing the way that’s comfortable for her. And much like in the modern day, a woman’s dress does not tell you anything about what’s going on with her personally. Not an invitation.
Dr Rad 35:30
Is she wearing a miniskirt? I don’t know.
Dr G 35:33
I don’t know. I don’t know. But somebody’s found her attractive and that this becomes her problem then because she gets accused of this crime of incestum. And the problem within custom is because it’s it sort of covers everything from inappropriate dress, you know, being a little bit of a vivacious all the way up to lost virginity. The ultimate punishment for incestum is being buried alive.
Dr Rad 36:04
And oh my goodness, it seems like an overreaction to some red lipstick. I mean,
Dr G 36:08
For that mascara, you must die? Yes. Yeah, it’s a real problem. The Romans, they sort of they go a bit overboard with this kind of stuff. So the problem from the Roman perspective, and the way that they sort of understand these things, is that if, indeed Postumia is guilty of incestum, that means that the relationship with the gods is not right. It has been severed in a particular way because her behaviour in the physical realm, the things she thinks, what she wears, how she does things, all of those sorts of things contribute to her maintaining her responsibility within that broader sense of the Pax deorum. Right. So there are six Vestals, they all have to behave as appropriately as possible from the Roman perspective of what is appropriate for them. And heaven forfend. You should have a ready laugh or some over bold talk.
Dr Rad 37:07
I do actually like the translation of the view that I was reading it says that she got into trouble because of her clothing as you’ve highlighted, but also the amazing freedom of her wit.
Dr G 37:20
Yeah, like she likes she likes a good sneaky joke. So yeah, I
Dr Rad 37:25
think this for me was like a code of if either you or Dr. G wherever transported back to ancient Rome to become Vestals, you would definitely die.
Dr G 37:35
immediately be buried alive. This is why you do not time travel. Okay.
Dr Rad 37:43
Yeah, exactly. Sounds like a great idea. But before you know it, you’re in a chamber somewhere to to any station.
Dr G 37:49
Yeah, terrible, terrible. Yeah, she has apparently an easygoing character more easygoing than the fits a young woman. And so this accusation of in costume is raised against her. Now, the thing with these kinds of accusations is that any Roman citizen can make them. So it really doesn’t take a Yeah, it really doesn’t take much for them to happen. If somebody has decided that, you know, they’ve got an issue with your family, or they genuinely have a suspicion that, you know, maybe they’ve done something that they shouldn’t have. Anyone can come up to the Pontifex Maximus and be like, Oh, gee, I don’t know about that. Sheila. A. So that a little bit outrageous. Yeah, so that situation can happen. Anyway. I mean, the good news, yes. For Postumia Is that Spurius Minucius, the Pontifex Maximus, seems to be like a genuinely reasonable dude. And this is good news. So rather than finding her guilty, he does not. He takes the case to the Pontifical college. So there’s a group of lower pontificates underneath him. They go and take the case to a vote. And they find in her favour.
Dr Rad 39:03
Yay. miniskirts? Red lipstick, here we go. Yes.
Dr G 39:10
Postumia wins the day. Yeah. Now unfortunately, there are some stipulations that they make to her on the result. She is no longer able to make jokes. Wow. She must abstain from jokes. No more of that.
Dr Rad 39:29
Just lay off right. Just lay off the comedy. Leave. The patricians and the plebeians. I mean, I think you can say that we’re unintentionally hilarious.
Dr G 39:37
We know what’s funny. You don’t know what’s funny. Class Warfare.
Dr Rad 39:41
That’s what’s funny. Yeah.
Dr G 39:42
You know, I think it’s like the classic scenario where, you know, women in comedy have found it really hard to break through for a long time. A lot of stigma and his costume. Yeah. Postumia is on the front line of that being like but guys, I’m hilarious. And then like, I don’t think so. No more. Yeah. The other thing is that she is asked to dress with sanctity rather than elegance.
Dr Rad 40:09
Oh, yeah, she has to put away the sexy clothes.
Dr G 40:14
Yeah, no more showing off the figure in a way that appeals to you. You must dress like you’re wearing a hash and bag and preferably, just put on a hash and back. In fact, we’ve got one here, here it is. Go for it.
Dr Rad 40:26
And go for neutrals. You know, beige, beige, beige. We’re all about the beige.
Dr G 40:31
Oh, we love a good beige. There’s nothing that says like upper middle class aspirational than beige.
Dr Rad 40:37
Yeah, off white. Eggshell, ecru.
Dr G 40:42
I also kind of like what Plutarch has to say about this. So Spurius Minucius reminded her that the language she used should have no less dignity than her life.
Dr Rad 40:55
Oh, wow. That is a good one. I’m going to remember that actually, I’m going to use that against my students.
Dr G 41:04
Basically saying like, you’re a Vestal virgin, you really have to act like one.
Dr Rad 41:09
Well, okay. Like, I mean, yes, I do understand that this, you know, certain standards of behaviour that are professional. But then again, when you consider that being a vessel is a 24/7 gig. And when you consider the kind of workplace requirements, it’s like the fact that I find it increasingly ludicrous that all around the world, we force people to have these uncomfortable and restrictive unflattering office clothes. I mean, actually, I shouldn’t say unflattering. Sometimes they are very attractive, but nobody likes to wear them. Why do we force ourselves to? Like there is no, I increasingly baffles me that we don’t just dress to be comfortable, to be weather appropriate, and to be sustainable.
Dr G 41:55
This is like the, like the whole concept of the man’s tie. Yeah. And it’s like, like, I love a good 19th century career that, but yes, nobody can give me a good reason why anybody in the modern world has to wear the kind of ties that currently exist.
Dr Rad 42:09
I agree. Yeah, that’s, I mean, I’m just like, Look, if people want to wear office wear, because that’s their jam, go for it. But I will never understand why workplaces are like, Oh, no, you have to take this seriously. You really need to wear something made from you know, polyester and union. You know, you need to wear a suit, you know?
Dr G 42:28
No, I think this relates to possibly the distinction that has emerged over time that there is a dichotomy to be had between your private self and your Public Self. Yeah. And in a way, this ties in very nicely to what the Romans are doing throughout their whole sort of time as well. Because what Minucius is saying to Postumius, in this moment, is that actually, your job is a 24/7 job, being a vessel version is not about getting downtime, it is about always adhering to the principles that brought you into this space. So you joking around, and you wearing something that looks alright, is not doing the role justice. It is it is in fact, trying to bring something about your private self, if you like, into this public sphere. And we can’t have that. So it’s like, you know, she’s now in a situation where I’m pretty sure what happens to Postumia just gonna write my historical novel. Now. Postumia starts, she does take up this advice, and she does curtail her Public Self, because we certainly don’t hear about her coming back for another accusation of intestine, thank goodness. But I imagine she goes on with the body jokes. And she goes on with a dress ups in the safe space of the house of the Vestals, where she’s hanging out with her sisters during the business.
Dr Rad 43:50
Well, one can only hope. I do understand that being a Vestal is I suppose, kind of like the way we think of certain professions as being a vocation, not just a job. And so I can kind of understand that the difference is, of course, that she was forced to take this position as a child before she was maybe able to fully comprehend the way that her life was going to, you know, be shaped and changed by this very lengthy commitment.
Dr G 44:21
Yeah, this is a massive commitment to take on. And it’s one that invariably I would say, the candidates don’t choose for themselves. It’s about their physical ritual fitness to be chosen. It depends on them coming from an elite family. And if you’re an appropriate candidate, and the time is right, that we need a new Vestal virgin, chances are, you’re going to end up in a life situation that you did not choose for yourself, but happen to have been the chosen candidate for so the idea that Postumia might be railing against some of these pressures, just trying to be yourself and enjoy a little bit of life while she also has to do this thing that goes for years and is at is, is not surprising to me at all. And but I’m really pleased that Minucius allows that to be a disciplinary action rather than a live burial situation.
Dr Rad 45:13
Yeah, definitely. And look, I also should say, I’m not being naive here, I do understand that when you put on certain outfits, it does help you to get into a certain mindset. And I do also appreciate that whether we like it or not, humans are kind of superficial visual creatures at the best of time. So I do understand that there is a certain way that you present yourself, obviously, in certain scenarios, which are going to be expected whether you like it or not, I’m not naive, I just made I guess, it’s because I because I work in a profession where we’re quite active a lot of the time and our work is very unpredictable. And some schools I’ve been at not all schools, and certainly not the school that I’m currently at, very restrictive with what you’re allowed to wear as a teacher. And it’s kind of weird, because you’re wearing these, like quite expensive, fancy clothes, when you’re like running around, and you might be walking through mud, and you might be kneeling down all the time. And sometimes it just makes sense to have freedom of movement, and not to be worried about ruining these expensive clothes. And, you know, and and also, because I you know, because I’m a person that’s very concerned about climate change, and that sort of thing, I’m increasingly a fan of clothing that is sustainable. And to me clothing is sustainable. It’s clothing that you can wear in your private life and your public life so that you don’t have to have so many clothes, and are also made from certain fabrics. So I guess that’s why I’m a bit lighter. But I know that more more and more workplaces I know are being Freer with what employees can wear.
Dr G 46:40
And hopefully, if Postumia is ever coming back into this world reincarnated, she would be having a great time as well with a lot more freedom to express herself as she pleases and to wear whatever she wants.
Dr Rad 46:53
Exactly, exactly. I guess what I’m trying to say is that Postumia should be the woman I use on my logo for more sustainable workplace clothing.
Dr G 47:03
Done and Well, I reckon this is probably a good place to wrap up. Well, no. Oh, wait. Whoa,
Dr Rad 47:11
I do have a little bit to add to that. So as I said to you, when we spoke about the trial of Postumius and his colleague a few episodes ago from their own misconduct in battle, alleged misconduct, I should say, although I think Postumius was found guilty. So he can’t sue me for saying that. We talked about the fact that there was potentially this rivalry going on amongst the patricians. And I just wanted to add that I was reading up a little bit on this. I said, I didn’t read up on it, but I unintentionally did, I stumbled across something that that Postumii and the Sempronii were often very closely connected families through marriage. So whilst this Vestal case may seem to come out of nowhere and Livy’s narrative, if we think about the fact that we’ve got Sempronius, who’s had seen to escape prosecution earlier, now, he finds himself on the chopping block. If we put those cases together, it’s possible that these families were being attacked. And what this also is reading suggested was that possibly what we’re seeing is not only rivalry for like, who’s the greatest patrician gens, like that, but that maybe certain patrician families are advocating particular policies. So for example, the Postumii may have been on the side of more aggressive expansion to Rome, whereas other families like the Furii and the Manlii, we might remember our families represented as military tribunes with consular power in this year. We’re not as keen to to expand Rome at quite that pace. And in quite that way, so might be a matter of policies, I suppose. And factionalism, I think,
Dr G 48:56
yeah, I think family factionalism, we can definitely see as a an ongoing thread when festivals pop up in the narrative history. So thinking about what is that broader political context, which we’ve navigated very deeply or as deeply as we can give in our source material? Yeah. It seems to me like these sorts of things don’t come out of nowhere. And the, the idea that the thing that they’re the Vestals are accused of, it’s always the same crime, and it’s always a subjective kind of situation. So there’s very, very few ways to be able to verify that an in custom has happened, you know, you’ve gone and done it and cast it. Oh, no. No, it’s very, it’s very hard to back something like that up with actual evidence. So you can see the political thread underpinning that kind of situation because it’s a question That’s always related to the idea of Roman morality, and particularly how it functions for women through that patriarchal lens.
Dr Rad 50:10
Yeah, definitely. And I think we can’t obviously know for certain what exactly was going on within the patrician class at this point in time. We don’t even know if there is really a patrician class at this time. But I think shining into what we’ve been talking about in the last couple of episodes about this idea that the idea that the Roman state really wasn’t formalised at this point in time, if we go back to what you and I both alluded to, which is this theory that we’ve really just got, like warlords who have particular control over maybe certain areas, and they have clients and people who are loyal to them. And this is kind of more of a situation we’ve got going around rather than elections and consuls and that sort of thing. If we tie that together, I think we can definitely say whilst we don’t know what they’re fighting about, it obviously makes total sense that there is this constant rivalry because that’s how I kind of warlord era works like, you might have kind of divided up turf between particular families. And there might be pieces of you know, there might be periods of stability. But there’s also going to be those times when they you don’t agree or you can’t work together or you decide you want more.
Dr G 51:23
I gotta eliminate this whole family and all of their influence in order to increase my own.
Dr Rad 51:29
Now, I do have one final detail from Liddy for this year, which is a little side note that he loves to finish on these very anticlimactic side notes. Which is that the Greek control city of Cumae was taken by the Campanians.
Dr G 51:45
Oh, yeah, very interesting. So there was a Cumae in Italy. And it’s on the West Coast, and it is in Campania. So this is all making sense. This is all this is supposed to be where the Sibyls are. The cave, the cave at Cumae, interesting power dynamics happening in the South.
Dr Rad 52:05
Yeah, well, I thought I’d give a little bit of background to this detail. Because I realised that I just sort of went Oh, yeah. But then I thought, actually, I don’t really know what he’s talking about. So I’m going to look up, look it up. So the Campanian region, as you alluded to, it is below where the Volscians are positioned. So it’s a bit further afield, and the Romans generally then share with their military campaign. Yeah,
Dr G 52:27
you’re thinking if you’re if you’re thinking modern Italy, you’re thinking more Naples, and south.
Dr Rad 52:32
Exactly, yes. And this is like the region where Spartacus wreaks havoc eventually. But at this point in time, it’s actually probably kind of like a more distant place for rowing, because they’re really, really interacting with the people that are directly around them.
Dr G 52:49
And it’s also on the other side of Volscian territory. So it’s like, you know, in order to get there, you have to get through the Volsci, you and it’s like, I mean, that’s what’s always a nightmare, because they kind of always up for a fight instead. So
Dr Rad 53:01
there have been these Campanian and Greek settlements to the south, really all the way back to in the ninth century. Right. That’s when we started to see these, these peoples moving into the area and taking over. And it seems that they were even more powerful than Rome, in between the sort of ninth and sixth century. So we’re talking about probably very early room like technically before, you know, the traditional date of 753. But that that period, yeah.
Dr G 53:31
This this region that is known as Magna Grecia has been continuously colonised by the Greeks for centuries before we see the rise of Rome further to the north. And so there is a sense in which there is the the native italic peoples and the Greek colonisers have been in this sort of push and pull with each other for quite some time in the southern regions of it.
Dr Rad 53:59
Yeah, absolutely. So that these areas are powerful in the sort of regal period of Rome’s history, I suppose we’d say, and then we see a bit of a decline. And it’s interesting because there had been, we think, actually relatively strong connections between the Etruscans and the people in Campania, even though they are in different regions. So it does seem to have been connection between them in this regal period of Rome, let’s say. But then there had been two major events that had limited interest and power in Campania. And this is where we start to see I suppose the the gradual decline of the Etruscans as a major power in Italy. So one of them we have talked about, which is we going back to early republic, allegedly 505-504 There was
Dr G 54:50
five or five that is
Dr Rad 54:54
overhead occurred near Aricia where the Cumaens and the Latins were victorious against the Etruscans
Dr G 55:02
Interesting. Yeah, so this is where these are the kinds of stories that sort of really put into play this idea of like how far south were the Etruscans? And how independent are the Romans as a people from Etruscan culture? Because if the Etruscans and Cumae are fighting over Aricia like that is already more south than Rome itself. It Yeah, well,
Dr Rad 55:26
I mean this because it’s true. The reason why I looked into this is because I remember that a couple of episodes ago, I also mentioned a takeover Capua. And atrocities have been mentioned in that story as well. So that’s why I was like, I’m gonna look into this a little bit. Anyway, the other event was in 474. So again, still kind of earliest Republic, where a combination of Cumaean and Syracusan ships had won a battle against the Etruscans.
Dr G 55:52
Well, well, well. Syracuse is now in
Dr Rad 55:56
Syracuse. That’s right. Yeah. So we start to see the limitation of Etruscan power in the south. And increasingly, we see Oscan influence. Now, I think we’ve probably mentioned Oscan, before, but
Dr G 56:11
we have we have so this is one of the italic language groups of Italy. And I, if I’m remembering rightly and maybe correct me on this, because I’m just going off the top of my head. I think the Oscan language is sitting to the
Dr Rad 56:27
east are correct. Yes. And it’s generally most associated, I think, and again, this is off the top of my head. I think it’s mostly associated with the Samnite people. That’s correct.
Dr G 56:39
Yes, I think so. So
Dr Rad 56:42
and we still see traces of Oscan in in like Pompeii, for example, like when we look at the ruins, there are so often inscriptions in Pompeii. So it’s definitely, as you say, a language group. And it definitely has deep ties to Italy, and the various people that live there. So it seems that if we look at the bigger picture for a moment, that what we’re looking at, potentially in the for 20 years, and probably also to be honest, for decades before as well. a tonne of movement of people stopped to GE
Dr G 57:15
Hmm. There was a great movement and shift going on of people either pulling away as their power wanes, and then people coming in as their power starts.
Dr Rad 57:25
Yeah. And I mean, there’s possibly a range of reasons why people are moving, but particularly we see we start to see the movement of people from the central app unknowns into the region of Campania. And this is this ties into the story that I told about Capua being captured in 423, which seemed to come out of absolutely freaking nowhere. But it’s probably because we’re so focused on Rome, that we’re forgetting that there is this broader movement happening around Rome. And this will have an impact, of course, because one of the rooms, major entities on the horizon are the Samnites.
Dr G 57:59
Ah, yes. So I think part of this ties in nicely to some of the events that have come up in our narrative episodes previous to this one, where we’ve been looking at the way in which is a difficult climactic period, in Italy, where there’s been a whole bunch of sort of failed harvests, there’s been various pestilences come through. And this has really shaken up things. For the Romans, they’ve had some real problems around this. So if we take that as a broader sense of, there might be some like shifting, climactic interferences happening in the natural environment, that are changing the way that people are having to find food. In particular, if you’re from a mountainous region, it’s probably affecting you quite differently to people who live in a more Plains area where you can do a more sophisticated sort of harvest and organise sort of planting of crop and the mountainous regions. While you can do some of that you’re more limited because of the geography. So if the consequences that are having these negative impacts for the people who are not in the mountains in these plains regions, are also affecting people in the mountains, it’s going to lead to shifts of population as they have to find new sources of food, they have to find like food security is massive. So if you’ve got people who are awakening and power, part of that waning in power is directly tied to can we sustain a population in these regions? Or do we need to pull back? Yeah,
Dr Rad 59:32
absolutely. And this is the problem. We don’t have enough information about exactly what is causing this movement of people. And we don’t really know exactly what’s going on. Because if we look at the written sources, from rooms perspective, we have the southern random mentions from Livy where it seems like it’s a really violent takeover that happens, you know, sudden spurts or you know, there’s a sudden moment where a city is captured and you know, That’s the that’s the way that it appears. But if we look at the archaeology, it seems like there actually wasn’t really a sudden violent change where the Samnites suddenly came into power in this region, as you say, kind of to the east and a bit to the south, but actually quite a gradual shift, as we start to see more remnants with, you know, vestiges of often language churning up. So that’s a bit of a sign there. And it’s possible that what we’re dealing with is, you know, any number of situations like it could be that there were issues in campaign Yeah, between an increasing Oscan populace and uninterested elite, okay, it could be that we’re dealing with maybe an oppressed population fighting against their rulers, it’s really hard to tell exactly what’s going on between the Oscans, Etruscans and the Greeks and whether it’s even anything to do with ethnicity at all. It might just be, you know, the, the class nature of it, and where we’re dividing them up into the ethnic groups or the language groups or whatever. But certainly, it testifies to the fact that this is not just a tough period for Rome to go through, which we’ve mentioned before, but there are definitely some interesting and difficult changes happening in the broader Italian area.
Dr G 1:01:23
It’s really fascinating, isn’t it? Thank you so much for delving into that. That’s a I think that’s going to be good context for us as we move forward in time.
Dr Rad 1:01:31
Well, I never really thought about it cuz I was like, oh, yeah, that campaigns and then I’m like, wait a second.
Dr G 1:01:37
What do you mean Campania?
Dr Rad 1:01:39
Yeah, I suddenly realised that I actually, I probably should look that up. And the more I looked it up, I’m like, Oh, this is actually more complicated than I thought. Oh,
Dr G 1:01:48
good times. Good times. All right. We are at the official moment.
Dr Rad 1:01:55
It’s time for the Partial Pick. Thank you Igor, not Dr. G impersonating Igor
Dr G 1:02:08
Igor is currently on leave.
Dr Rad 1:02:13
All right. So tell me what is the partial pick a little about?
Dr G 1:02:16
Oh, look, it is a great time, Rome can win 50 Gold eagles. There are 10 possible eagles in each category up for grabs. Our first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 1:02:31
Who know there’s none of that going on in this episode.
Dr G 1:02:36
Yeah, we’ve got a lot of politics, but we don’t have a lot of fighting. Such.
Dr Rad 1:02:41
Yeah. Purely domestic politics. You’re all round. All right.
Dr G 1:02:45
Well, how about diplomacy?
Dr Rad 1:02:49
Hmm. I don’t think so.
Dr G 1:02:53
I mean, it’s kind of diplomatic of Minucius to you know, allow Postumia to not be buried alive.
Dr Rad 1:02:59
Okay. Okay. This is where I always get stuck. Yes. Okay. You could say it’s diplomatic. But isn’t diplomacy? I don’t think so. I mean,
Dr G 1:03:07
I’m trying to help. I’m trying to help Rome out to get some kind of score really?
Dr Rad 1:03:11
Let Rome suffer. It deserves it.
Dr G 1:03:14
Didn’t they put that guy on trial and charge him a whole bunch of these that diplomatic?
Dr Rad 1:03:22
Definitely no, decidedly.
Dr G 1:03:25
All right. All right. We shall move on. So far. It’s zilch from two. Expansion.
Dr Rad 1:03:32
Again, no, you generally don’t get expansion without military action. So very nice. What if they
Dr G 1:03:38
expanded their minds? I don’t
Dr Rad 1:03:41
think that there’s much evidence of that.
Dr G 1:03:46
Just what I try, just,
Dr Rad 1:03:48
I mean, I mean, sure somebody else is expanding. We’ve got this takeover q&a, but that’s not the Romans.
Dr G 1:03:54
All right. Well, I you know, yeah. The Campanian is doing all the heavy lifting this year. Yeah, exactly. All right. Nothing for expansion.
Dr Rad 1:04:02
No, we’re twos. No. I gave it long and hard thought. I mean, look, okay. I don’t know how do we feel about Sempronius? I despise him. But that was a rhetorical but
Dr G 1:04:20
it is very weird to us, for the patrician to take the rest of rhetorical stance that he’s going to be hard line for the good of Rome.
Dr Rad 1:04:31
It is Is it a thing? Is it weird to us or is it just
Dr G 1:04:35
attrition stubbornness at its finest?
Dr Rad 1:04:39
It is a patrician. It is
Dr G 1:04:42
more No, I know. I’m gonna I’m gonna say no, I was playing devil’s advocate. It’s okay. The answer is no, that’s not weird to us. I think we chose also has to involve the physical in some way if the body is not on the line. I don’t think we’re really talking about we’re towards here. I agree. I just thought a very specific type vibe. value within masculinity for the moments
Dr Rad 1:05:02
I’m fighting against my own bias against the patrician, so I want to make sure I am giving them the benefit of the doubt even though they are the Royalist of douchebags most of the time.
Dr G 1:05:17
So good. It’s all good. So, our subtotal currently still zero. All right, so everything hinges on this final category. Absolutely. All right, the citizens school, was this a good time in Rome to be a citizen?
Dr Rad 1:05:31
It doesn’t sound like the worst time in that we think about absence of evidence. Okay. So there’s no military action going on. So even though we don’t have anyone testifying that the citizens are doing cartwheels in the streets, it’s gotta be a benefit to them that they’re not, you know, risking death, risking destitution, that’s got to be of us. Yeah, they’re
Dr G 1:05:53
not suffering under a levy and then having to gather their equipment and head off into the sunset, never to be sure if they’ll see their families again. It’s a great time to be a citizen in that respect.
Dr Rad 1:06:03
You’re not being treated terribly. Well done. Yeah, yeah. So there’s that. But there’s also the fact that guys Sempronius, is actually finally held accountable. Because I mean, look, I can understand that sometimes things just don’t go the way they’re supposed to when you are the commander. And it’s not necessarily fair to put you on trial, just because it didn’t work out in a way that you couldn’t necessarily control.
Dr G 1:06:31
I do kind of love that the Romans do that, though, being like you failed the battle. That is a crime.
Dr Rad 1:06:38
behaviour was criminal, though, they’re really I’m going to put you on trial.
Dr G 1:06:42
criminal negligence, I tell you, that’s it.
Dr Rad 1:06:47
I believe our sources. And to be honest, I don’t see why I wouldn’t in the sense of Livy’s, clearly on a patrician side 99% of the time. So if he is willing to say that Sempronius did not prepare for battle and was just like, if Fortuna will take care of it, then you know, what you actually are liable to that like that, actually, is criminal negligence. That’s like the definition of criminal negligence. You just listen, you’ve just wasted everybody’s time. You’ve also put a lot of people’s lives on the line and cause death and heartache for people and their family. So yeah, you actually should be held accountable for that. So I actually think that this is a good thing. And the fact that the people aren’t swayed by the Senate trying to sweet talk them. I think that’s a positive. So I’m willing to maybe give a two for the citizen.
Dr G 1:07:42
Wow, all right. Yeah, I can’t imagine it could even possibly get up higher than like, to me the maximum ceiling would be five, because it’s not, it’s not like things went really well. It’s just that things didn’t go badly. So I’m like, we’re dealing with a glass half full or half empty situation. So five would be the maximum, and I’m happy to settle for two.
Dr Rad 1:08:06
Yeah. And I mean, actually, when you think about it, I mean, it’s not great that no perbanas get elected. But you see Livy’s puts the blame for that. On the for the audience. He doesn’t tell I think
Dr G 1:08:17
I feel like that’s misplaced and Livy’s should know better. No,
Dr Rad 1:08:21
I know. But when you think about it, this is actually you know what, Livy’s a frickin genius. Because when you think about the way he spun this narrative is artwork. He’s first of all blamed the plebeians for not electing their own as quaesters because the consular relatives are just so amazing. They’re falling all over themselves to get to the ballot box. When we fall know that if the if the voting system is anything like what we’ve got later on, or you know, anything like they say it’s so it’s totally us and whatever, set it up, as they are absolutely cut out of the voting system, if they are truly, you know, lower down. Now, look, there are wealthy beings out there. I know this is an entirely
Dr G 1:09:05
Yeah, but they’re gonna be sued. But like best case scenario, they’re sitting in one of the lower down voting groups, and they don’t get a chance. I mean, they should be rising up and getting angry about that, but they have to change the whole system. It’s not it’s not enough to try and get somebody elected. And it’s like, they actually need to overthrow the systemic issue in order and I can see how they’re like, Okay, well, we need to get in there so we can change it. And the problem is that the system is designed to keep them out. So it’s, it’s a massive issue.
Dr Rad 1:09:34
I mean, it’s genius, like the system designed to keep them out and yet it’s their fault when their own candidates don’t get elected. That’s genius. Point number one. Second of all, living in sets this up as this is the excuse that the tribunes are using to go against Sempronius when actually he absolutely should have his ass nailed to the wall because he absolutely did the wrong One thing, he is a dick, and there’s no getting around it like, and yet he set it up. So like, oh, the tribunes are being so diabolically clever, and they’re totally using this situation, as you know this pathetic front for going against him when they absolutely should have prosecuted and when they had the chance previously, and I don’t know why they didn’t. And then to add insult to injury, it’s Postumia fault that she’s dressing inappropriately and laughing too much, Dr. G. So he is blaming Oh, did she have a good time? Yeah, if ever there was an episode, systematic unfairness, this is the
Dr G 1:10:39
thank you so much for listening to the partial historians where it’s clear what our partiality
Dr Rad 1:10:45
is in the name Don’t get mad.
Dr G 1:10:49
We did try to warn you we did.
Dr Rad 1:10:52
I just think it’s actually it is actually artwork, the way that he’s written this particular account reading against what he’s telling me.
Dr G 1:11:00
Yeah. And I think it’s really useful to come to the source material with this kind of mindset, because it encourages you to question why are we being told these things? And these are good questions for historians to always ask? And I’m thinking of you listeners, because you two are historians, if you approach the material with the with the critical questions in mind, that’s doing history. So when you look at this sort of stuff, and you think to yourself, Well, why are they positioning it this way? Who is the real target audience here? Who is getting the benefit? And who is missing out on benefit? And how is that being leveraged against them? All of these kinds of questions really help you sort of see through some of the very clever rhetorical structuring that is at play.
Dr Rad 1:11:48
And that’s the thing like if I were busy researching something, and I was just dipping in and out of Livy, like, you know, reading the bits that were applicable to me, as you do when you’re researching, you don’t sit there and read Livy covered a cover because you need a section of Livy, what I’m getting such insight into the academic process here, but you don’t do that. So you dip in and out, right? If I were just to dip in, and I was on a deadline, and I was just researching this, I would absolutely just read that and be like, okay, yeah, that’s what happened. Cool. But the reason why I kind of love the fact that we move slowly, even though I’m sure everyone’s like, move faster.
Dr G 1:12:23
We literally can’t, because there’s too many things to analyse. So
Dr Rad 1:12:28
when you actually slow down and look at it year by year, you’re like, Oh, my God, this is genius. I mean, the line that this thing is really set
Dr G 1:12:38
up a trap, haven’t they?
Dr Rad 1:12:41
And you wouldn’t necessarily question it, because it’s just seems so matter of fact, it’s just like, oh, yeah, they did that. And they did that. And look, obviously, I’m not saying that I’m right. I can’t prove that I’m right, because it’s a theory. But certainly, I think as you say, it’s worth questioning why Livy has or who worked with, you know, whatever he sought before him was, Why have they position the events in this flow? You know, like, why, why have them connecting in this way? And why be attributing certain motives to people in this way. And I, personally, I think you can see our revenue only perspective at play 100% of the time in the year 420.
Dr G 1:13:22
I would agree humbly, based on the beautiful interpretation of Livy’s that you’ve provided.
Dr Rad 1:13:33
Maybe I’m just too suspicious, but you know, what the hell, as you say, we need to go on the boat closer to nothing people are here for our takes on things.
Dr G 1:13:42
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure. I’ve been very excited to talk about some Vestal virgins, and to learn so much about the year 420 BCE from you, Dr. Rad. Indeed. I’ll see you next time. Dr. G. Oh, and before we go, I’d like to thank our Patreons for their ongoing and beautiful support. You guys make this podcast even better than it already is. And so we appreciate that very much. And also, just doing a bit of a shout out for our book you want to hear about Rome and how it all began. We got you covered. We wrote a book on the Roman kings.
Dr Rad 1:14:18
We certainly did. There’s lots of interesting things that happen lots of conquest, lots of phalluses appearing when you least expect them.
Dr G 1:14:30
Until next time.
Dr Rad 1:14:41
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and some bonus content. Today we’d like to send a special shout out to our newest Patreon, Steve Roger space for Luzi domesticate and Maple Leaf Ozzy. You could also support us by buying us a coffee on Kofi. However, if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Be partial! Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Special Episode - Quo Vadis (1951) - Part Two
Jun 22, 2023
This episode we return to the ‘Golden Age of Hollywood’ with a classic sword and sandal epic, Quo Vadis (1951). This film is available through many streaming platforms and we highly recommend revisiting it.
Hollywood loves a sure bet and MGM started working on their own adaption after WWII. The legacy of that war can be seen in the depiction of Nero and the Roman people. Nero seems to be a mixture of Mussolini and Hitler, and the use of eagles, fasces and the ‘Roman salute’ must have also dredged up unpleasant memories.
The newly emerging Cold War also had an impact on this movie, with the plot dealing largely with the clash of freedom (Christians) vs tyranny (Romans). The immoral, irreligious Romans could easily be seen as the ‘godless Communists’, whereas the Christians and converts stand for the American way of life. The film was made during the hunt for Communists in Hollywood itself. The first round of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) had started in 1947 and round two was destined to begin in 1951. These were dark days for many in the industry.
Black and white portrait photo of Peter Ustinov as Nero in Quo Vadis. He sits in a thoughtful pose and appears unhappy about something. Source: Pinterest.
HUAC arrives in Hollywood
The head of MGM (Louis B. Mayer) and the male lead of Quo Vadis (Robert Taylor) were intimately connected with the HUAC hearings. Mayer had testified in 1947. Robert Taylor may not be a familiar name, but he was a massive star for MGM in the 30s and 40s. He was also known for his conservative politics and would be the only prominent Hollywood star to name names in front of the Committee. This might all seem to add up, but his testimony had just as much to do with his loyalty to Mayer, a fellow conservative, and MGM as his anti-communism.
Taylor had been forced by MGM and the Office of War Information to star in Song of Russia (1944), a pro-Russian film designed to promote friendly feelings about wartime alliance. Taylor had been dead against starring in the film in the first place, but he eventually went through with it so that he could be released by the studio to fulfil his military service.
Taylor’s Testimony
Taylor was asked to testify in closed door sessions in front of HUAC early in 1947. He was quite frank regarding his political views, and Song of Russia might have come up. Taylor did not hold back as he thought this testimony would be kept private. When it was used to bolster the presence of HUAC, Taylor was less than pleased. Taylor and his wife Barbara Stanwyck were conservatives, but they did want to abuse their position as celebrities. They never wished to discuss politics in public again.
Black and white portrait photo of Robert Taylor as Marcus Vinicius in Quo Vadis. He wears a Roman style military brestplate and gazes into the middle distance thoughtfully. Source: Pinterest
Taylor would have to make one more notable exception on that front. Louis B. Mayer, like so many other studio heads, wanted to protect the movie industry. This was business, and with television on the rise and the 1948 ruling against studio-owned theatres, the ‘biz’ was facing enough obstacles in the late 1940s and early 1950s. They did not need the public thinking that Hollywood was spreading Communist ideology. More significantly, there is a distinctly antisemitic tone to the HUAC hearings, which must have made the largely Jewish heads of studios nervous, no matter how politically conservative they were.
Specifically, Mayer needed Taylor to testify a second time so he could back up MGM’s official line regarding Song of Russia. It was just a romance! Certainly not wartime propaganda…. HUAC also really wanted Taylor to appear again, purely for the publicity. They were correct: the press (and a lot of female fans) flocked to see Taylor’s testimony.
Taylor seemed to be uncomfortable when asked to name any suspected Communists in the industry. He was hesitant, but he did it. In the atmosphere of Hollywood at the time, Robert Taylor was celebrated by most for his patriotism. Whilst the best days of his career would soon be behind him after Quo Vadis and his testimony, this had nothing to do with his appearance before HUAC. However, these days, Robert Taylor is largely forgotten or remembered as a ‘friendly witness’.
Join us for our take on this rollicking ride through Neronian Rome and 20th century politics!
Babington, B.; Evans, P. W., Biblical Epics: Sacred Narrative in the Hollywood Cinema (Manchester University Press, New York: 1993).
Cyrino, M., Big Screen Rome (Blackwell Publishing, Oxford: 2005).
Elley, D., The Epic Film: Myth and History (Routledge and Kegan Paul, Suffolk and London: 1984).
Joshel, S.; Malamud, M.; Wyke, M., ‘Introduction’, in Imperial Projections: Ancient Rome in Modern Popular Culture, ed. S. Joshel, M. Malamud & M. Wyke (John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore and London: 2001), 1-22. And this what Dr Rad was quoting in the episode!
Malamud, M., Ancient Rome and Modern America (Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford: 2009).
Mayer, D., Playing Out Empire: Ben-Hur and Other Toga Plays and Films, 1883-1908, A Critical Anthology (Clarendon Press, New York: 1994).
Scodel, R.; Bettenworth, A. Whither Quo Vadis? (Malden, Massachusetts, Blackwell Publications: 2009).
Skwara, E. “Quo Vadis on Film (1912, 1925, 1951, 1985, 2001): The Many Faces of Antiquity.” Clássica (São Paolo) 16, no. 2 (2013): 163-174.
Solomon, J., The Ancient World in the Cinema (Yale University Press, Michigan: 2001).
Wyke, M., Projecting the Past: Ancient Rome, Cinema and History (Routledge, London: 1997).
Wyke, M., ‘Projecting Ancient Rome’, in The Historical Film: History and Memory in Media, ed. M. Landy (Rutgers University Press, New Jersey: 2001), 125-42.
You Must Remember This (7 March, 2016). The Blacklist Part 5: The Strange Love of Barbara Stanwyck: Robert Taylor.
Lygia and Marcus Vinicius posed against a pink and blue clouded sky. This looks like an official promo shot for Quo Vadis. Source: ievenn
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad 0:18 Welcome to this special episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr. Rad and normally Dr. G and I discuss the history of Rome from the founding of the city. But today we begin a deep dive into Quo Vadis in 1951. We ended up talking for so long about this epic that we have split the episode into two parts. Seems appropriate given the original film had an intermission. This is part two of our coverage of Quo Vadis, in which we will focus more on our analysis, the film and its betrayal of history. We hope you enjoy this sword and sandal classic as much as we did.
So in a previous episode, we’ve covered the background and plot to quiver strategy. Let’s now try and get a little bit more analytical and delve into the film in more detail. So I’m going to change gears a little bit dodgy because I feel like I had enough narrow for a moment. So first of all, I’m going to mention something which I have mentioned before when we’ve been talking about these films like “The Robe” and “Demetrius and the Gladiators”, we have to think about why Quo Vadis. Why now. And that is very much to do with the threat of a television you.
Dr G 1:34 Oh yes. How dare they don’t watch things on the small screen when you could watch things on the big screen?
Dr Rad 1:40 Yes. So as we talked about before, the 1950s is going to be the era of the widescreen technology that is officially however, launched with the robe in 1953. Now Quo Vadis is a large scale film in the sense that it’s long, it’s saturated with colour and excess. It’s the kind of thing that you’re not going to get on a small square black and white screen in your suburban home. So it is the kind of film that Hollywood believes is going to encourage people to come to the movies. And they’re right. Because they’re really running scared because it’s not just television, as I am sure I hope you’ve again mentioned before, it’s also the fact that they have lost a lot of power in 1948. With the anti monopoly laws, were they the movies used to control everything, you know, from the production of the film to the editing to the distribution. And monopoly laws of 1948 means that they lose their grip on the distribution. Oh, no, yeah. And so that’s a significant chunk of their business. They’re really, you know, it’s only a few years later, and this has been the model for quite some time. So they want movies like Quo Vadis, which they feel sure are gonna get people to come and watch them because that’s how they’re going to make them money. So that’s a bit of the movie business stuff. Now, specifically, the context of the 1951 film being one of the earliest sword and sands films. I need to throw this at you. World War Two.
Dr G 3:10 Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it’s definitely a thing. I mean, it’s over. By the time we get to this film it is and, like, there must be filming, I guess in 1950. So we’re not far out. I was kind of surprised. But also like pleasantly surprised by just like, it’s all on location in Cinecitta. And you can see from the shots in and around when they’re doing sort of like chariot work and things like that. Yeah, they’re definitely in Italy.
Dr Rad 3:40 And doing chariot work?
Dr G 3:42 Yeah, like Mediterranean pines, like they’re definitely in the right place. They’re on location.
Dr Rad 3:48 Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 3:49 It’s pretty impressive.
Dr Rad 3:50 Yeah. I mean, look, they’re often parallels drawn between Roman emperors and the dictators of the 20th century. However, this film, I think, more than most was, I think, trying to lean on that. Okay, I think that it’s meant to be a bit of a weird blend of both like Mussolini, the fascists, and also the Nazis that we see here. Because the Nazis, of course, had been very anti religion. So I think you can kind of see the persecution of Christianity that’s happening here and the seeming decadence of Rome as being you know, tying into that a little bit. But also, of course, Mussolini himself had tried really hard to draw a connection between his Rome and the Rome of the ancients. How awkwardly phrased was that
Dr G 4:40 Ancient Romans and the modern Italy usually were Yeah,
Dr Rad 4:44 yeah. So the point where he put on an exhibit in 1937, called the Augustan exhibition of the Roman spirit. So he was really dwelling on that. And she had she had her course also had been constructed by Mussolini. So there’s an age interesting parallels there. Obviously, there’s a lot of Roman symbolism which the fascists use, like the eagles and the fasces. And they think the salute, although that’s been pretty much debunked by Martin Winkler as being a bit of a misunderstanding.
Dr G 5:15 Yeah. But the Roman salute that’s given in this film is visually resonant. Like there wouldn’t be many audience members who, who hadn’t seen some Nazi propaganda, you’d be like, oh, oh, I see what you did there.
Dr Rad 5:28 Yes, exactly. Yes. And there’s also a very clear accent divide as often is the case in these films we’ve talked about so a lot of the heroic Christian freedom fighting liberty loving characters are American. And the evil people, evil imperialist bastards. British. So of course, we have Peter Ustinov playing, or very memorably playing the role of Nero, whereas we’ve got people like Robert Taylor, very American, playing the heroic person. Now, I know he is a Roman character, but we know he’s all you can.
Dr G 6:07 You can tell from his accent that he’s going to switch sides.
Dr Rad 6:09 Exactly, exactly. And then the plan that Nero outlines the way that he says he’s going to kill all the Christians is very Hitler-esque, in that he says, he’s going to eradicate them from the face of the earth to the extent where people will doubt they ever existed.
Dr G 6:28 Yeah.
Dr Rad 6:29 Yeah. Which is creepily like a genocidal plan. And also the model of Rome that you mentioned. So you know, you said that Nero was going to burn Rome to the ground and rebuild it.
Dr G 6:40 Well, there is a model displayed in this film.
Dr Rad 6:42 Yes, yes, yes. And the shot of Nero standing over, I think, was very much meant to recall shots of Hitler, looking at Albert Spears plan for Germania.
Dr G 6:55 Oh, interesting,
Dr Rad 6:56 like the New Berlin
Dr G 6:57 because I was really interested in the map of Rome itself, because I was like, the reason map, there is a 3D map of Rome, right? Yeah, that looks very much like this model. And I’m wondering if it’s the same one, and I haven’t been able to, I haven’t had enough time to look into that.
Dr Rad 7:11 I actually probably could have found the answer for you if I had known beforehand, but I forgot to check that out.
Dr G 7:17 But I’m fascinated. So I’m gonna keep investigating that.
Dr Rad 7:21 Yeah. And they’re all these lines that Nero delivers throughout the film, which I think are really playing on those Hitleresque sort of things like he says to Petronius at one point, the world is mine and mine to end. Oh, yeah. And also we know that he is someone who has murdered his own father. So we already know that he is a monster. And therefore he from the beginning comes across as a tyrant like he’s obviously very amusing because it’s pretty used. But he is meant to be a monster. But
Dr G 7:57 I think there is something amazingly believable about Ustinov’s performance, though, which
Dr Rad 8:02 Oh, yeah.
Dr G 8:02 Which makes this film stand out, as opposed to some others where the Imperial figure is designed to be the ultimate bad guy. Yeah. But is played in such a way as to not make it sympathetic enough to believe that a real human could be that way. Yeah, was something about Ustinov’s performance is very naturalistic in the way that you like you can you get the sense that this is a mind that is maleable, that that he has particular drives and he’s trying to figure out how to best bring them to life?
Dr Rad 8:37 Yes.
Dr G 8:37 And he doesn’t conceive of himself as evil he conceives of himself as misunderstood.
Dr Rad 8:43 Yeah and also that idea of him having to be like on a larger scale again is almost not to like yeah,
Dr G 8:51 He sees himself as removed from the common people in part because the position that he has to fulfil is like as Emperor, I have this kind of duty to be very different from everyone else. So we talked a lot about how things have to be uncommon.
Dr Rad 9:05 Yes, I was gonna say I actually have the exact quotes I think it’s such a good one Peter Ustinov says I seek because I must exceed the statue of man in both good and evil I seek because I must be greater than man for only then will I be the supreme artists, let it be wonderful. Or let it be awful so long as it is uncommon? Yeah.
Dr G 9:29 This this is incredible sort of rationale in that Yeah. Which is I think if it was just read off the script, it might not you might not buy it. It’s like it’s very much the performance of Ustinov that brings back
Dr Rad 9:42 He’s just yeah, he’s performance stands the test of time, but you can’t always say about the circumstance. But yeah, the whole idea and the way that the other characters talk about the Christians like prepare saying, give room not one victim but hundreds. Who are these people, they just spies, our temple and our gods, they prophesied that the end of the world shall be caused by fire. Well then let it come true. Let it in for them, like it is that kind of idea of like scapegoating people, just like the Nazis do with the Jews, like it’s all very creepily there. Yeah. And also, then you’ve got Petronius coming in, of course, and being the warning of history, you do this, you make the murders, and you will suffer for it, which, of course, is exactly what has happened in your he has to be particularly bad reputation, because I think he has been seen as like the Antichrist, or at the very least an enemy of the Christian people, which for, you know, subsequent civilizations which pride themselves on being Christian, doesn’t make you a good guy. Now, gender is something I thought you might like to talk about a little
Dr G 10:52 Oooh,
Dr Rad 10:52 yeah. And that also ties in with World War Two. So tell me, what do you know about women’s role during World War Two?
Dr G 11:00 Oh, women’s roles in World War Two? Well, my understanding is and correct me if I’m wrong.
Dr Rad 11:05 Yeah.
Dr G 11:06 Is that because the men were away fighting? Yeah, it was incumbent upon women to really get behind the war effort in ways in which they possibly wouldn’t have been the first in line for if there was a non war time. So you have this shift of women into the workforce in different ways. It’s not the case that women weren’t working before the war. They definitely were. But the kinds of jobs that women were asked to do, or put themselves forward to do because the labour was needed. It was now all across the board. Yeah. And it was kind of like, if it had to be done. It had to be done. Yeah. So you know, the pictures of women on factory lines was not something that people were used to, but it’s something that definitely happened during the war, for instance.
Dr Rad 11:49 Yeah, absolutely. And that’s exactly how we need to say these sorts of films, and Quo Vadis is no exception, this idea that women had stepped up, gone into these roles, which were unusual. But now the men were back back to the private sphere with you, missy? Yeah. So it’s this idea of, I think, women as domesticate the need to have stable families. So Romans very rarely, in the 1950s and early 1960s have stable family. They’re generally somehow twisted, like, for example, mentoring your mother like Nero does, or can the wife as Nero. It’s the kind of you know, the cheating, the adultery is all that kind of stuff that the Romans partake in. And it’s this idea that will the the core of 1950s, America has to be proper Christian religious sentiment, family, and domesticating. femininity, and I am quoting directly from someone who I will reference in our sources.
Dr G 12:50 Ah domesticating femininity.
Dr Rad 12:55 Yeah. Yeah. So good. Women are shown as domesticating influences I see. Yeah. And they need to find someone to pair up with and convert.
Dr G 13:05 Well, well, well, Lygia, step forward.
Dr Rad 13:09 Yes, exactly. Here is obviously classic. She’s an entirely fictional character, obviously, for all the others adaptations. The interesting thing is, though, that there is a bit of a remnant of those women that didn’t want to go back into the private sphere after World War Two with literature, because in the 1950s version, she has moments of being kind of feisty, and knowing her in mind, which in the novel, she is not, she’s entirely passive interest. Yeah, she just does what she’s told to do by either her parents, her adoptive parents, or Vinicius or whatever. She’s really just like a chess piece to be moved around. It’s about possessing her obviously.
Dr G 13:48 Okay, so she’s been slightly rewritten for the 1950s audience.
Dr Rad 13:52 I think so. Yeah. Like they they know that you don’t want someone who’s a complete pushover. But the values that she stands for, nonetheless, like,
Dr G 14:01 well, actually, this kind of makes sense. So she gets accused of like, you know, filling your head with philosophies and things like that. Why would you do something like that? But that’s also Yeah. Well, it’s kind of also the thing that happens to you, you have this sort of like, narrative of the 1950s. And particularly in America, where it’s like, Sure, by all means, go to a good school and get an education but like your number one priority is to settle down with a husband and have some children. Yeah, so like, by all means, get that degree, but hidden for fun if you would attempt to use it.
Dr Rad 14:33 Yes. For anyone who wants to get a vibe for what he is talking about. Mona Lisa smiles, excellent.
Dr G 14:41 Also Mad Men, which I know is very rude now, but I still love it.
Dr Rad 14:45 Yeah, no true true true. Now bad women, of course, are the kind of women that want public power.
Dr G 14:50 Oh, I love Poppaea this film, though. Yes. So you know she enters with two cheetahs on a leash
Dr Rad 15:00 Like Bad Girl table of one
Dr G 15:01 Oh glorious. And you know, it’s like it’s all the makeup. It’s the dress. It’s the it’s the sultry gaze. It’s the one of the things I notice from a cinema cinematography perspective. Yeah. Is that Lygia is tends to be always shot on the three quarters. You don’t get front on shots because I was like, what is it? I just want to know what Deborah Kerr’s nose is like from the front, you know, but I do
Dr Rad 15:32 You’ll have to watch “An Affair to Remember” to get that.
Dr G 15:35 Definitely, I would didn’t get it in this film. But Poppaea is often shot front on
Dr Rad 15:39 Yeah,
Dr G 15:40 and there’s a real so there is choices being made artistically about how these women are shown. And the angles that you get of them, to sort of set them apart from each other as well because Poppaea is front and centre. Next to Nero in public. But also somebody who is given space to be a decision maker about certain things. So she does make decisions publicly.
Dr Rad 16:05 Yes.
Dr G 16:06 And people just go along with it. And it’s not like she defers to Nero, when she does that.
Dr Rad 16:11 No, and that’s exactly she’s meant to be obviously showing, like, this is what happens when not only women want public power, but when they get it, it’s terrible. They don’t know how to exercise it properly. They should be focusing on me why?
Dr G 16:25 She’s like, ridiculous, get over here.
Dr Rad 16:29 But this is, you know, this is the thing about how passive and so Poppaeas Sabina is a real person, obviously, like Nero, or she was a real person, I should say.
She is a historical figure. She is a historical figure.
And I feel terrible, that she always comes across so badly, because she’s a murder victim, guys. She’s a victim of domestic violence. Yeah, what really happens to her is that Nero supposedly loses his temper and kicks her kicks her in the stomach while she’s pregnant with their child, and she dies because of complications to do with that injury. I mean, added to that way to go. Now, look, the sources are not kind to Poppaea Sabina either. So I’m not saying there’s not some basis. I think, I think Sienkiewicz did his research. You know, I think he read up about this. And I think the best way to sum this up is this little line from Tacitus. This is what he says about Poppaea. She was a woman possessed of all advantages, but a character.
Dr G 17:26 Oh snap.
Dr Rad 17:28 yeah, exactly. And so he goes on and on about how awful she is in that she’s beautiful, and she’s witty, but she is depraved and gives into luxury. And she sleeps around and all that kind of stuff. So look, all of that may be true. Whatever I get it. It’s not what the Romans are looking for in wives either. But part of the also wonders how much of this has been exaggerated, because Nero is a bad guy. And we know that when you’ve got a bad guy, he must be not controlling this woman properly. He’s hassled, you know, in disarray. He’ll be associated with a woman who has all the stereotypical bad qualities.
Dr G 18:08 Yeah, this becomes part of the political invective that you level against. Right? Yeah. And so part of the way that you bring him down is to bring down everybody who is connected with him. So there is no way it’s very tricky, I think for somebody like prepare to be able to come out well from this, particularly when the previous wife Octavia has had was so publicly popular. So people even in the historical record, following Nero aren’t willing to openly criticise her because, by comparison, she was the bee’s knees.
Dr Rad 18:42 Yeah, and in all the ways it will for all the reasons that near apparently find her boring was that she was loyal, dutiful, quiet, just went about her business, like being private, not in public, you know, no ambition, that kind of stuff. So yeah, anyway, look, I just thought I had to mention that. So there’s a bit of like, World War Two gender stuff going on. Also for the men. I think it’s no accident. Again, we often talk about the issues with masculinity that are shown on screen and these sorts of movies. And I think it’s no accident that Peter Ustinov Nero is highly effeminate in the way that he’s played, whereas Robert Taylor, our hero, super masculine, yeah, willing to be domesticated. So it’s kind of almost like how the soldiers come home from World War Two and the woman’s like leaving the literary crap at the door. You’re entering the domestic sphere now baby. So all about, you know, pumping out the little ones and putting up white picket fences.
Dr G 19:37 And there is a moment later on in the film where Vinicius kind of has a realisation that he was being pretty boorish at the start of the film.
Dr Rad 19:46 Yes, exactly.
Dr G 19:47 So there is a sense in which that narrative is being perpetuated and they’ve sort of put him into a bit of a domesticated situation and he’s agreed to go along with it because, well, you know, Lygia, she is just so freakin hot. Yeah,
Dr Rad 20:02 Deborah Kerr as in star. Okay, so the other bit of context that we have to mention and I think I know we mentioned this is all these sorts of movies is, of course, another war Dr. G, but the Cold War
Dr G 20:14 Ah, feel that shiver in the room.
Dr Rad 20:18 It’s not getting hot in here.
Dr G 20:21 I’m putting on more clothes even as we speak.
Dr Rad 20:23 Yeah. Now I’m just gonna very briefly mentioned that of course, you’ve got the classic freedom versus tyranny dichotomy going on in this film, which is exactly how President Truman had explained the situation that America found itself in 1947. So it’s no accident. And of course, in 1950, when Quo was being shot, as you mentioned, this is where we see the ramping up of the anti communist crusades within America, the second red scare 1947 had been the first round. That was when we had the Hollywood 10. People like Dalton Trumbo being on trial, but because they did string out their defence for such a long period of time, and it put everything on pause, and so no one else had really been charged. But 1951 is when we’re really going to see that whole more classic, I think, better known part of the second Red Scare taking place, which is where you see a lot of people go down. You see a lot of people doing the whole naming names or not naming names.
Dr G 21:27 Yeah. Well, I mean, on naming names, I mean, that feeds in quite nicely to ideas about the deletores in ancient Rome. Fun. Also, there is this film does a very good job of having the people which could be construed through a communist lens, if you wanted to. Yeah, really quite far removed from anything that’s going on. Yeah, they kind of at the peripheral, and we only see them through the perspective of Nero. And essentially, yeah, they’re a mob. And again, I think it’s meant to be very Mussolini and Hitler is key. Yeah. But any, there’s no focus on like farming or like the idea of like, well, a quasi proletariat that emerges out of the agrarian society, you know, all of those sort of, like classic elements of Yeah, that could build a foundation for a communist narrative within a Christian narrative. Yeah. None of that is happening.
Dr Rad 22:23 They were very self conscious about it. The 1951 campaign book for Quo Vadis, said, this movie, the fact that was being made, it’s basically like the world could well use the message of quo and the dark days are threatening us. The storyline cries out a creative non violence and adjust resistance to a godless aggression. Take that Stalin. Yeah. So whilst whilst Nero was meant to be somewhat, I think Mussolini and Hitler. So there’s also these stolen Soviet things happening.
Dr G 22:55 Take a bad guy, put your Nero on stage and you’re done and dusted. Yeah.
Dr Rad 22:59 And again, very briefly going to mention of course, this comes back to the fact as well that religion in this time period for America, it’s a patriotic thing. It’s about American godliness triumphing over the godless communists.
Dr G 23:15 Yeah, it is one of these really interesting characteristics of 20th century America, where the there’s a tacit freedom of religion, like it, or maybe even a spoken freedom of religion. But when they embrace religion, it is very much a very particular type of Christianity. And that Christian symbolism is imbued into a lot of their public symbolism.
Dr Rad 23:41 Yeah and I think I think it’s also worth mentioning with Quo Vadis, in particular, that Robert Taylor, and Louis B. Mayer, who was the MGM chief executive, and MGM made this film were both friendly witnesses, which basically means that they volunteer their information. And we’re very cooperative in supplying details about the inner workings of Hollywood for the committee, and they both had got involved with us and testified really early on in 1947.
Dr G 24:12 He’s not so good looking to me now.
Dr Rad 24:14 I know. So Robert Taylor, I’m gonna tell you a little bit about Robert Taylor.
Dr G 24:16 Yeah, please.
Dr Rad 24:17 So he was part of this right wing group called The Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals. They had been the ones that had actually invited the house on American activities to come to Hollywood and investigate Hollywood specifically because they were worried about his communist propaganda and co working in the industry. So Robert Taylor is a part of that. Now, Louis B. Mayer, I kind of feel like he’s one of those guys. I’ve talked about in a previous episode, where I think he’s just concerned about like, protecting his business.
Dr G 24:50 Yeah, fair enough. Things have gonna run guys.
Dr Rad 24:53 Yeah, absolutely. Now, Robert Taylor was married to Barbara Stanwyck. Okay, now they share had an interest in conservative politics?
Dr G 25:02 Well, I mean, it’s a solid foundation for our marriage, I suspect.
Dr Rad 25:06 Yeah. He’s the only big studio star to name names in an open session to HUAC.
Dr G 25:13 Wow.
Dr Rad 25:14 Yeah. And they use his initial testimony to publicise your work. And Robert Taylor had no idea that this was going to happen. He was furious about this basically, like, basically,
Dr G 25:28 Did that ruin his career?
Dr Rad 25:29 No, but I don’t think I don’t think he’s a well known name. Now, let’s put it that way. Yeah, certainly, he just wants out of politics after this, but he kind of has no choice because he is a studio star and MGM is like, you are going to testify, they specifically want him to testify in order to present a strong front with Mayor about this film they had made called the song of Russia. Now that was made at the time when the alliance between the allies and Russia was first being formed to try and promote this, you know, during World War Two.
Dr G 26:08 So he’s got a vested interest in perhaps coming forward and coming forward openly. In order to counterbalance some of that, I think he
Dr Rad 26:15 was incredibly reluctant to name names. And yet he is kind of forced into it. The sad thing is that his appearance was a massive deal. And it’s possible that these 1950s HUAC hearings became a big deal, because of Robert Taylor, because he was a big star at the time.
Dr G 26:32 Wow.
Dr Rad 26:34 So I just thought that was worth noting, because whilst we’ve talked about some of the other Cold War connections to some of the other films, the fact that this one comes about at this particular time with these particular people.
Dr G 26:46 Yeah, really, really interesting.
Dr Rad 26:48 Yeah. I mean, obviously, like we’re talking about 1951 hearings that yeah, obviously being the year of release of Quo Vadis but it would have been filmed before then, but I think everyone obviously knew that HUAC was in their midst because of the Hollywood 10. So yeah,
Dr G 27:05 yeah. It’s not necessarily something that’s clouding the performance of actors in this film with each other. But it’s definitely going to have an effect after
Dr Rad 27:13 I yeah, I just I just think it’s it makes I think Quo Vadis, even more interesting to me contextually, like this kind of stuff. And I, I kind of feel sorry for Taylor in a way that you know, you wouldn’t expect me to necessarily because I hate people who name names. I hate people who are on the right. Politics. Now. I shouldn’t say I hate right wing politics. But yeah, I kind of feel like his. He’s often a person, you’ll see, as you’ll hear, like a soundbite from him, or you’ll see an image of him testifying. And you don’t necessarily have the nuance of exactly how his appearance came to be in front of us exactly how he was used. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it seems like something he would do. But he I’m not saying
Dr G 27:53 But there might be some more complications.
Dr Rad 27:54 I think it’s the more complicated factors there. So yeah, I just thought that was interesting, given him being the title role and all so yeah. Anywho, you want to talk about Nero?
Dr G 28:03 Nero. Yeah. Look, I mean, there’s a lot of things that you could say about neuro in this film. And I mean, I’ve said some of those things already, in terms of like the performance and stuff like that. I think this is the kind of film it’s off the same sort of stature in my mind as something like “I, Claudius” in the way that it kind of sets people up to think that there is a very simple read for this period of Rome’s history. And it’s because the performance is so good. Yeah. And because the things that happened, some of these events are verifiable. That was a fire in Rome. It did happen during the late period of Nero’s reign. He did have a rebuilding programme. There are some sources that benefited. Definitely, there are some sources that talk about his connection with the Christians. Yeah. All of that is true. Yes. Now this narrative, this particular film makes it seem like there that is a really smooth story that we can understand Nero and his reign and how it comes to an end. And I would urge you, as a human with an interest in history to keep in mind that this is a film that is so persuasive. But there are some real questions to be asked about the source material for this period and what they might be trying to do with Nero. He is the last of the Julio-Claudians. This is an end point in the first dynasty of Roman imperial power. Yeah, it has ended badly. There’s lots of good reasons for it ending badly and there are a lot of people with their noses out of joint by the way that the Julio-Claudians have developed over time, so there’s lots of people in a position to write really negative histories as well. And that some of the source material that is survived and come down to us.
Dr Rad 30:05 Yes.
Dr G 30:06 Does this mean that he was terrible and all bad? Probably not. But the stories that we do have a pretty horrifying I don’t think I’m not going to excuse things like domestic violence, which leads to complications of a pregnancy which leads to death. You know, all of that is terrible. But this film does make it an easy package to swallow and just be like Nero was this crazy manipulative human being. And we that’s all we can say about him.
Dr Rad 30:36 Yeah. And I completely agree, because this is the thing I agree with you I don’t think Nero probably was a great person, let’s face it. He grew up with a mother who was probably quite rightly traumatised, and paranoid. He grew up in a family that was even worse. And he was only a teenager when he came to power. And whilst teenagers weren’t really a thing in ancient Rome, I certainly don’t think his brain was fully mature.
Dr G 31:01 They do have a classification for the young man as a young person the “adulescens” which teenager sort of comes out of that string. And that that isn’t a period that goes up to the age of 25.
Dr Rad 31:01 Yes. Is that as I mean, the Romans know that youth equals trouble.
Dr G 31:15 Yeah, they do see them as useful. And they position them as such. And certainly, all of the Republican positions are set up to be open and available to people who are beyond that age group.
Dr Rad 31:28 Yeah, absolutely. But this exactly, I think, yes, I think there was a problematic person. I think some of the stuff that’s come down to us is most likely true, like the fact that he was behind the murder of Agrippina, and that he probably was responsible for the death of Octavia and Poppaea Sabina.
Dr G 31:45 It’s just good politics, isn’t it? Yeah. Gotta get rid of them rivals.
Dr Rad 31:49 However, as you said, there is this intriguing snippet from Josephus, where he says, there have been a great many who compose the history of Nero, some of which have departed from the truth of facts out of favour, as having received benefits from him, while others out of hatred to him and the great ill will which they bear him have so impudently raved against him with their lies that they justly deserve to be condemned. So seeming to imply that there were positive accounts out there, they weren’t necessarily any more trustworthy, but they were there. And like, the fact that none of this seems to have come down to us is staggering. So definitely, I think there were some people who were more in favour of Nero, the people of room seem to have been a bit more fond of Nero than I think the elite of Rome were.
Dr G 32:36 Yeah. And this is something that the film tends not to capture yet is he does seem to have been quite well loved, for most of his rule by the people of the city, not necessarily the leads, but like the man on the street kind of thing. Yes. And definitely he’s rebuilding programme, or post fire. Yes, does a lot of sort of accommodation of people who have lost their homes and things like that. So there are elements of good leadership mixed in amongst the the horror stories. And yeah, the political mayhem.
Dr Rad 33:09 I think he was basically a very selfish person, which is no big surprise, and not particularly dedicated to rule at a time when Rome really needed him
Dr G 33:21 and also somebody who’s probably not that trusting now, given the situation that he’s grown up in, been surrounded by his whole life. So you know, somebody who is naturally suspicious.
Dr Rad 33:21 I mean, he’s his own father, supposedly, ran over children in the street just kicks. So yeah. But again, you don’t know whether that’s actually true, or whether that’s just trying to trash talk his reputation, because Nero turned out to be so horrible, but again, you gotta wonder, like, has to come from somewhere. But definitely, I think it’s worth mentioning when we talk about a film like Quo Vadis. Our sources are actually fairly clear, I think, at least in terms of reliable sources that Nero was not responsible for the fire.
Dr G 34:02 No, the evidence suggests he wasn’t in Rome. So the film does get that right interestingly.
Dr Rad 34:08 Yeah, he’s not personally responsible.
Dr G 34:10 You didn’t Yeah, he wasn’t there, like, you know, with a little match, throwing it onto the bonfire. But he wasn’t there. So it seems unlikely. Also, despite the fact that there’s this building programme afterwards, I don’t think there are many people who believe that they he anticipated the fire or created the fire in order to produce this buildingwork. Well, yeah. Like there’s plenty of space already. If he buys a private property on the Palatine to do the kinds of things he wants to do.
Dr Rad 34:40 Yeah, again, I think he’s just a bit selfish in the way he goes about some of the rebuilding, and therefore it makes people suspicious, which does make him turn to the Christians are scapegoats. Like that’s one thing that yes, you can say, yep, Nero deserves to be blamed for that. Again, the sources I think, are fairly clear that he does pinpoint the Christians as a group that he can target because nobody
Dr G 35:01 cares about them. Yeah. And this is political expedience at its worst. Yes, exactly.
Dr Rad 35:07 Although he’s so horrible to them. I mean, I believe one of the punishments is that, and again, it’s kind of like that poetic justice things that the Romans like every now and then he likes the city of Rome by setting the Christians on fire.
Dr G 35:21 Oh, yeah. So like, this is like the classic source reference where it’s like, you know, he lights up Rome with Christians bodies. Yes. Yeah. And that’s pretty disgusting. If true.
Dr Rad 35:31 Exactly. Like it could be exaggeration, of course, or whatever. But certainly the idea that people I think it testament says, Look, nobody really cared about the Christians until Nero started to persecute them so horribly. And well, then people started to go, Hmm, that is really awful, even by our standards, so I don’t think they were like, Oh, we love the Christians. But it’s more the idea of people started to feel even more simple. People started feeling sympathetic.
Well, they suddenly registered that these people were around to being like, Oh, I didn’t know that they were here. They were really copying. That doesn’t seem okay.
Yeah, definitely. So I thought one final thing I might end on finances very long episode. But such a long movie. It’s so hard not to just like
Dr G 36:14 we’re not even up to the halfway point of the film yet.
Dr Rad 36:17 Yeah, I know. I thought we had to also maybe register, maybe Petronius. Yes, as a real figure. And I also wanted to highlight Lygia’s adoptive mother Pomponia Grecia. Yeah.
Dr G 36:29 Oh, I haven’t looked into her.
Dr Rad 36:31 Well, okay. There is actually a passage about her, she was loosely connected to the Julio-Claudians like, she’s not super something in the inner circle. But as more of them die, her connection probably becomes more significant. She actually does seem to have been rumoured to be a Christian, there is a passage preserved in Tacitus, which talks about her being accused of a alien superstition, which has been taken to mean Christianity. And that having to be dealt with in like a private family disciplinary sort of way.
Dr G 37:01 I feel like this is a testament to our original author’s research. Surely,
Dr Rad 37:06 I know. And so I just thought I thought it was worth mentioning that because we’ve said some stuff about other female characters, and you might not think that she actually is based on a real person.
Dr G 37:14 Yeah, I just assumed that she was made up for the film. No, no, she’s not.
Dr Rad 37:17 And and also, she apparently, very publicly will morning as a statement when one of her relatives, a female that Messalina was jealous off was bumped off. So she was kind of like, daring, you know, but Claudius refused to punish her for obviously making like a bit of a statement about miscellaneous behaviour, what she was doing. So she’s kind of an interesting character. And the way that she has been represented in different versions is quite different. Like, if you go back to the 1925 version, I think that’s where you see more of a storyline about her being caught up in persecution, and managing to escape through her mother’s love, because her child is like, about to watch her be executed. And again, that seems maybe a little bit tying into like, the fascist ideology about motherhood and like, once mention her, but also Petronius I thought he was maybe a fun note to end on.
Dr G 38:09 Yeah, look, Petronius I mean, he is he is a figure that gets sort of like bandied about in this period. But because he’s lampooned and to see Petronius brought to life in a way that is quite intelligent, quite serious. But then being there’s, there’s kind of like a visual homage to the satire that he is generally known for in the final feast, which I quite enjoyed. And I was like, well, well, this is where it gets dramatic, isn’t it.
Dr Rad 38:39 Yeah, I think he might have been the author of this work, which we now call the Satyricon, which is a bizarre work and we don’t have it in its complete form. Of course, we never do. But one of as you say, like the key moments is like the feasts. Yeah. At the house of Trimalchio who I think is a freedman, right.
Dr G 38:39 I can’t remember,
Dr Rad 39:01 Okay, yeah, he’s maybe he’s meant to be this like lower class person who’s aping the upper class. Yeah, he’s got money. He’s really trying. He’s aspirational. Yeah. And so Trimalchio is supposedly partly meant to be inspired by Nero, which is maybe one of the reasons why he is found himself in hot water. Because he does end up getting caught up in these conspiracies in Nero’s reign, as far as we can tell, like the real historical character. So I think it’s, it is interesting the way that he as you say, is turned into like, kind of like the conscience sweet like, like a weird.
Dr G 39:39 He kind of becomes this figure that Nero bounces off and Petronius provides this opportunity just just to gently nudge him in a slightly different direction.
Dr Rad 39:50 Yeah. And he does have like the real Petronius did have official positions as we’d be fit. A man of his status. You know, he does servers console and that sort of thing. And he apparently had this title amongst Nero’s inner circle that he was the arbiter of elegance, oh, which I think has been very much played upon in this particular adaptation. He’s not always as likeable because there is this whole another subplot romance between him and one of his slave girls. Eunice.
Dr G 40:25 Oh, yes, yeah.
Dr Rad 40:26 And in this film, it’s kind of
Dr G 40:28 why is that subplot even there?
Dr Rad 40:30 Oh, well, it gets a lot more disturbing another version, okay. In some versions, I can’t remember which one, but there’s a version where apparently, he orders units to be beaten for something she’s done wrong. And it’s while she’s being beaten that he realises he’s in love with her too. Because the whole storyline is that Eunice is in love with him to a point that is like the range.
Dr G 40:51 Yeah, this is I mean, the Euncie subplot, everyone doesn’t make any sense. I’m like, again, this is one of those
Dr Rad 40:57 It’s drawn from the novel.
Dr G 40:58 Yeah, it’s one of these sort of classic like, it’s, there’s no women in the writers room, you know?
Dr Rad 41:04 Yeah.
Dr G 41:04 And it’s like they’re under what circumstances would a slave just be like kissing the statue of the of their own? No. And it’s like, there’s we’re giving no rationale for why she might be interested in him now,
Dr Rad 41:18 apart from the fact that he seems to be like, super intelligent.
Dr G 41:22 But she doesn’t.
Dr Rad 41:23 It’s weird. It’s weird, because he’s so refined in this film. And yet this, the Satyricon is like, it’s so gross, like, ,
Dr G 41:30 Well and I think this is one of the things where, like, the parallel that you might see with the historical Petronius, and the sort of the satirical one is that the way that things are written, and that, that idea of being very good with words, being very clever. And then we have Petronius is final letter to Nero, where is like six where he reveals the truth and like, I always thought you were a subpar singer. Yeah. It’s like, I would never want to hear anything come out of your lips ever again. You know? Yeah. All of this kind of stuff. So he gets to this moment where he does the reveal. Yeah. When he knows he’s going to take his own life. He’s already got that planned out. Yeah. And to me, that’s the kind of the literary echo coming in of like, you know, the person who’s got that incisive way with language.
Dr Rad 42:22 Yeah and it’s, it’s interesting, though, as well there in terms of characterization, because Petronius is really the only person who’s a Roman, who is sympathetic, but never becomes Christian. He is sympathetic to the Christians.
Dr G 42:40 Are you telling me that Tigellinus is not sympathetic? There’s only one man with a moustache in this film who is also a Roman.
Dr Rad 42:48 Whip out some wax as well. Yeah, no, exactly. He’s easy, only Roman who doesn’t convert to Christianity, even though he might be kind of trying to temper Nero’s actions with the Christians, but that seems to be more because he’s concerned about Rome’s reputation like, and ridiculous as you say, like it’s not really like, because he cares so much for these people. But yet he is the only person who doesn’t convert. You know, so it’s just it’s just inevitable. Yeah, it is easy these sorts of films and that sort of thing happens. All right. Finish up on a very light note. Let’s talk about the promotion of Quo Vadis I have mentioned this before but Quo Vadis really takes the cake.
Dr G 43:31 Okay, how did they promote this film?
Dr Rad 43:33 How do you sell a film like Quo Vadis? Well, of course, you know, there’s lots of tie in products.
Dr G 43:40 Look, I would you take that shot from the film where they’ve recreated Leonardo da Vinci’s The Last Supper, part by part and put it on a postcard and be like, do you want to see how it happened? Yeah. Because we bring it to life.
Dr Rad 43:54 Obviously, there’s the usual stuff like you shop windows and that kind of stuff. But there was also a real estate company that use the shot of nearer pointing to the model of Rome. They used it to sell houses Chris mana I’m looking at you. They also sold raincoats, sports shirts, wallpaper, tablecloth, flippers, pyjamas, boxer shorts, tie clips, and my favourite one. Fire Insurance.
Dr G 44:28 Wallpaper?
Dr Rad 44:30 Yeah, no. And not only that, but they received the Pope’s blessing on the directors copy of the script.
Dr G 44:38 Wow. Yeah. Well, you know once the Pope has blessed the script, I think you’re good to go.
Dr Rad 44:43 Yeah, I think so. And I think that’s a perfect note on which to end this very long episode. But you know what, for long film guys, what can I say? recommend that you go and see it? Yeah, definitely – look Peter Ustinov alone is worth it. Thank you for listening to this special ed said of The Partial Historians. We’d like to thank all of our patrons for their support and allowing us to make these additional episodes, especially Nick, who’s specifically requested Quo Vadis. This has been part two of two episodes on Quo Vadis. And so that’s a wrap folks. Our sources and credits can be found on our website. And as a side note, if you’d like to learn more about Robert Taylor and his involvement with HUAC, we suggest you check out one of our major sources for this episode, which is the fabulous you must remember this podcast which has a whole series on the blacklist including an entire episode dedicated to Robert Taylor, and his wife, Barbara Stanwyck. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Four Horsemen
Jun 15, 2023
This episode, we are dealing with 422 and 421 BCE. The previous year had been a very dramatic for Rome. They seem to have come perilously close to a disastrous military defeat. Luckily, they had the four horsemen on their side…
“The Four Horsemen” is our affectionate name for the group of cavalry commanders who dismounted and led the Roman army on foot when everything turned against them during the battle against the Volsci in 423 BCE. The most notable amongst them was a plebeian hero Sextus Tempanius.
In 422 BCE, these men were elected to serve as plebeian tribunes. But will they continue to be exalted by the Roman people? Or will they demand change from the patricians and become just as troublesome as many of their predecessors?
Join us as we explore the fallout from the Volscian conflict.
L. Papirius (L.?f. – n.) Mugillanus (Pat) Cos. 427
Tribunes of the Plebs
(Ti.) Antintius
(M.) Asellius
(Ti.) Spurillius
Sex. Tempanius
L. Hortensius
Ex-Consul
C. Sempronius – f. – n. Atratinus (Pat)
Our Players 421 BCE
Consuls
Cn. (or N.) Fabius Q.f.M.n. Vibulanus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 415, 407
T. Quinctius T.f.L.n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 405
Interrex
Lucius Papirius Mugillanus
The “Horses of Saint Mark”, also known as the “Triumphal Quadriga” or “Horses of the Hippodrome of Constantinople”. The bronze sculptures are thought to date to the second or third centuries CE and modelled on much earlier statues from classical Greece c. fourth century BCE. The precise date is uncertain. Photo credit to Tteske via Wikimedia Commons.
Our Sources
Dr G reads Fasti Capitolini for 422 and 421 BCE; Festus 174L; Tacitus Annals 11.22; Val. Max. 6.5.2.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.42-43.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects are courtesy of Pixabay and Orange Free Sounds.
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians,
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Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:12 And I am Dr. G. And we are following the history of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr Rad 1:19 Boy, are we and you know what? We’re getting so close to 100 years of the Republic.
Dr G 1:25 Maybe we should do a special episode 100 year reap recap on the early republic.
Dr Rad 1:29 Totally doable. It’s only taken us what seven years to get here. That’s gonna be fine. Yeah, stay tuned. Watch this space. Yeah. So Dr G, in our grand narrative of Rome’s history. Last episode, we were up to 423 BCE, and it was actually kind of a memorable year.
Dr G 1:47 Yeah, some things happened, particularly with Sempronius Atratinus, who was one of the consuls for that year.
Dr Rad 1:55 He was groped into waging a military campaign, and it didn’t go so well for him against the Volscian strategy.
Dr G 2:04 And he seems to have come into a bit of a cropper with the cavalry in some regard, maybe not paying attention to where they are maybe getting cut off from them. Yeah. And anyway, one of the military tribunes saves the day, Tempanius.
Dr Rad 2:17 Yeah, one of the cavalry decuriones.
Dr G 2:21 I love a good decurio.
Dr Rad 2:22 Yeah, yeah, he is the saviour of the day. And it really looked for a second like Rome was going to be slaughtered. And instead Tampanius Very unusual name managed to turn the tide, at least to the extent that it was a draw, that it was safe to run away, and find a nice place to get another day as they like to say so. And then, of course, when they got back, everyone was like, what happened out there and they tried to work Tempanius into testifying against Sempronius for like his gross incompetence, but he refused, Dr G. A man of honour through and through.
Dr G 3:00 And I think what we’re gonna see as a bit of foreshadowing for what’s coming up is some of the fallout from 423 in this year coming up.
Dr Rad 3:07 Yeah, I think the tribune of the plebs are gonna like walk away from such a ripe case of patrician incompetence. How could they?
Dr G 3:16 Stand firm tribunes of the plebs! Stand firm.
Dr Rad 3:20 Yeah. So, with that under our belts, let’s dive in to 422 BCE
Dr G 3:32 422 BCE! What are time to be alive for a Roman.
Dr Rad 3:37 Is it though? Do you have any source material?
Dr G 3:42 I mean, it’s been thin on the ground for a while. Let’s just say that the Fasti Capitolini has a little bit of information.
Dr Rad 3:52 Okay.
Dr G 3:53 I have a little excerpt from Valerius Maximus, which might be exactly the same excerpt as I had for the previous year.
Dr Rad 3:59 I was gonna say!
Dr G 4:00 Diodorus Siculus is missing. And Dionysius of Halicarnassus who can say who can say?
Dr Rad 4:07 Siculus is missing now?
Dr G 4:08 Well yeah, yeah.
Dr Rad 4:10 You know what, I’m starting to think that the sources aren’t missing, you’re just careless.
Dr G 4:16 I’ve decided to no longer prep for episodes. I’m just rocking up.
Dr Rad 4:20 Alright, well, with that in mind, shall we perhaps just start with the magistrates? And then I will give you what Livy has to offer.
Dr G 4:28 Yeah, yeah, I’m super excited. So what I’ve tried to do to compensate for my absolute lack of source material is, first of all, consult Broughton, who has the list of who’s in what position is the year that we even have any idea about-
Dr Rad 4:40 Raunchy.
Dr G 4:43 Me and Broughton. I mean, it might be 1950, but I’m happy. And from that point onwards, I might just interject every now and then with a little bit of tidbit about names.
Dr Rad 4:56 You know, my Latin is subpar. So let’s do it.
Dr G 5:02 Alright, so we’ve got some military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad 5:06 Okay.
Dr G 5:07 Sometimes you might hear if these, listeners, as referred to as “consular tribunes”, that’s fine. Those two titles are interchangeable. We’ve got Lucius Manlius Capitolinus. We’ve got Quintus Antonius Merenda. And Lucius Papirius Mugillanus.
Dr Rad 5:27 You got my hopes that for a second there, Dr. G, when you said that we had military tribunes with consular power, and yet, I feel like every name on that list is patrician.
Dr G 5:37 Yes, yeah. Although Antonius is a plebeian name, so Quintus Antonius Merenda, “Antonius” is a plebeian gens,
Dr Rad 5:46 Right.
Dr G 5:47 But there is like problems with this because our literary sources – unreliable though they may be and controversial for their record rejections into the past, etc, etc, all the usual caveats. The feeling from the ground from those writers looking back at this period is that the first plebeian tribute with consular power doesn’t get elected until 400 BCE, so we’re a little ways away from that at the moment. Yeah, so who is this Antonius? I don’t know.
Dr Rad 6:18 Hmm. I wonder if he’s a distant relative of Mark Antony.
Dr G 6:22 Surely. Does he have the nose? Let’s check for the nose. So they are our military tribunes.
Dr Rad 6:30 Yeah.
Dr G 6:30 Then we’ve got a nice little list of tribunes of the plebs.
Dr Rad 6:35 I thought you might say this.
Dr G 6:36 Yeah. Which is pretty exciting. We’ve got a guy called Tiberius Antintius, so we’re expecting plebeian names in this section.
Dr Rad 6:43 For sure.
Dr G 6:44 Marcus Asellius. Tiberius Spurillius
Dr Rad 6:49 Sounds like a pasta
Dr G 6:49 or Spurillus.
Dr Rad 6:51 Less like a pasta.
Dr G 6:53 And a name that may be familiar to you, Sextus Tempanius.
Dr Rad 6:57 Well, of course, I mean, you know, he was the hero of the previous year, of course, he’s gonna wind up being a tribune of the plebs.
Dr G 7:03 The hero of the previous year now in charge on a political front, not a military front.
Dr Rad 7:08 There is a real pattern with these plebeians that rise to the top in our sources, and that is they have this moment in the sun and they always end up being a tribune afterwards.
Dr G 7:19 Yeah, it’s a classic crossover. It’s the – what would be the modern equivalent – the influencer to twitch host? I don’t know.
Nice
I’m not sure
Dr Rad 7:30 I didn’t even know what half those words meant. So good job.
Dr G 7:33 I’m not going to pretend I understand any more than what I just said. There are other notables for this year, obviously, Gaius Sempronius Atratinus, consul of the previous year, is going to have a bit of a feature, and somebody called Lucius Hortensius. And you may think to yourself, well, you might know what’s going on the narrative. I’ve got no idea what’s going on with Hortensius in the narrative. But apparently, this guy is also a plebeian, or at least that’s what the name suggests.
Dr Rad 8:04 It does. It does.
Dr G 8:06 But I’ll go into the etymology of that later.
Dr Rad 8:09 Good. Good, because I also have something to say about that name. Okay, so the narrative of all of this, whilst the consuls are away, the plebeians decide to elect this array of tribunes, according to Livy. So this is where we get our Tempanius, our Asellius, our Antistius, and our Spurillus, okay. Now, all of these men, not just Tempanius had allegedly been chosen to lead the cavalry, when they had been forced to dismount from their horses and therefore quite frankly, become infantry against the Volscians.
Dr G 8:43 So all of these troops and some of the plebs are former cavalry leaders? Okay.
Dr Rad 8:49 Yeah
Dr G 8:49 Oh boy.
Dr Rad 8:50 In fact-
Unknown Speaker 8:51 The four horsemen
Dr Rad 8:51 I was gonna say, the four horsemen.
Dr G 8:53 Is there an apocalypse coming to Rome.
Dr Rad 8:55 It was almost an apocalypse, let’s be honest. So, I have actually looked into this a little bit. And the commentary that I’m consulting Ogilvie says that this is such a weird detail for Livy to have included it must be true.
Dr G 9:12 So strange.
Dr Rad 9:13 Yeah, I think I think he’s referring to the whole idea of obviously them, you know, dismounting and being chosen to lead in some capacity. And that would make sense because Tempanius couldn’t possibly I don’t think have been the only person who was in charge of the cavalry that particular day.
Dr G 9:29 Ah, he was the only one who turns up in the story.
Dr Rad 9:31 Until this moment, Dr G. And he was surrounded by people anyway. The senate sensed – because they’ve so got their finger on the pulse of the people – but there’s some negativity in Rome after the whole Sempronius affair.
Dr G 9:47 The vibes are off
Dr Rad 9:48 The vibes are off. And they’re like you know what? Let’s just not have consuls. It’ll make them feel better.
Dr G 9:58 I mean, we’ll just put patricians in power. But not consular power.
Dr Rad 10:03 That would be an insult too great. Salt, wounds, bad idea. So they decide instead on military tribunes with consular powers and it’s thus that we get the names that you mentioned earlier, some of which are very familiar like Capitolinus.
Dr G 10:21 Capitolinus is a pretty familiar name. We’ve come across those a few times. This is the first time I think we’ve come across an Antonius Merenda
Dr Rad 10:27 Agreed, that is a weird name.
Dr G 10:29 But Lucius Papirius Mugillanus, he was consul in 427.
Dr Rad 10:34 Totally,
Dr G 10:35 And seems to have been related to a guy who was consul in 443 and another Papirius.
Dr Rad 10:42 Yeah, we’ve heard the name Papirius. We’ve definitely heard Mugillanus before.
Dr G 10:46 Yeah, so there is also a generational legacy here where it’s like there is a flow through of patricians from certain famines coming into power, apparently, according to our sources.
Dr Rad 10:56 Yeah. And therefore, this makes it an entirely meaningless gesture on behalf.
Dr G 11:03 Put all our friends into power to keep you happy. Are you happy?
Dr Rad 11:07 We’ll just label it differently. Anyway, so at the start of the year, one of the tribune of the plebs, who was not mentioned as being part of the Four Horsemen gang – Lucius Hortensius – decides he’s going to go after Gaius Sempronius, the idiot of the previous year who had been such a terrible commander, take the floor, Dr. G.
Dr G 11:30 So Lucius Hortensius is also a tribune of the plebs?
Dr Rad 11:33 He is, but he’s not from the original gang.
Dr G 11:37 Okay, so he’s not one of these four horsemen
Dr Rad 11:40 He is not.
Dr G 11:42 And this may explain why he’s doing the prosecution, because he represents a slightly different political faction, maybe?
Dr Rad 11:48 Oh, he definitely does. Like there’s a whole narrative around this, but I thought you might want to say something about his name.
Dr G 11:54 Yeah, I do. I do. Yes. So the temptation is always to be like, Hortensius, it must come from “hortus” “garden”.
Dr Rad 12:03 Ah!
Dr G 12:04 Yeah, a beautiful Latin word
Dr Rad 12:06 Didn’t even occur to me because my Latin is so poor.
Dr G 12:08 But that is apparently not where this name comes from. It is thought to come from an ancient Roman town called Hortense or Hortenses.
Dr Rad 12:18 Okay.
Dr G 12:20 That is somewhere in central Italy. But, sadly, location unconfirmed.
Dr Rad 12:26 Typical. Well, I have a little bit more to add to that, which is that although the name Hortensius probably sounds very familiar to you, and I, because this family becomes quite well known in the later Republic.
Dr G 12:41 These – this family will make a reappearance. This particular Hortensius seems to be the earliest mention of a Hortensius we get in our sources, but scholarship generally discounts this guy as being real.
Dr Rad 12:55 I was gonna say, to say, I know how you feel when I say that these people aren’t real. Is that to make reality? You know, bend. But yeah, there is no other Hortensius mentioned in the sources for hundreds of years.
Dr G 13:09 Yeah. So scholars tend to err on the side of caution here and be like, this guy might not be real.
Dr Rad 13:17 Well, I mean, especially because we know what the Romans are like with their names.
Dr G 13:21 Well, yeah. So the Romans have this idea, much like in the way that they assume people’s characters based on their their appearance. They also assume character based on family. So there’s this idea that there’s hereditary elements of personality that come through. So the acts of this guy might be just a retrojection of the sorts of things that Hortensii are thought to do later on.
Dr Rad 13:46 Yes. Well, the interesting thing is there will eventually be a connection between the Sempronii and the Hortensii in the later Republic. So it’s possible that the reason this particular name has been selected is because there’s this interesting thing happening –
Dr G 14:06 Are you telling me this is all just foreshadowing?
Dr Rad 14:10 Foreshadow, foreshadow. I was like, for centuries for centuries. Okay, so what basically ends up happening in Livy’s account is that the four horsemen (of the apocalypse, I can’t stop it) beg Hortensius not to persecute Sempronius.
Dr G 14:26 He’s our man. We love him. Just doing his best. It was really tough thing. You weren’t there on the battlefield. You didn’t see how this was going down? How dare you step in? He’s not incompetent. He tried his best – it was difficult circumstances. And we know we didn’t prepare before the battle, but it’s not his fault. It’s not his fault!
Dr Rad 14:42 That’s exactly what they say. Literally word for word. Like it’s just bad luck. Anybody could have bad luck on a battlefield. It’s a battlefield, man. You weren’t there. You didn’t see.
Dr G 14:52 The plan is only as good as the first moment of combat.
Dr Rad 14:55 Yeah.
Dr G 14:56 Shhh, we didn’t have a plan.
Dr Rad 14:58 We were fighting at midnight. I mean, sure by then it’ll all gone to hell. But come on!
Dr G 15:03 You can’t even see what you’re doing under those conditions.
Dr Rad 15:05 It is black as night. The enemy just appeared out of nowhere man. Anyway Hortensius refuses to give way. He’s like, nah man, I don’t believe any of it. I think you’re just worried about the appearance of all of this. You’re just thinking about the optics.
Dr G 15:25 Oh, well, these guys are definitely thinking about the optics. This is where Valerius Maximus ends up going.
Dr Rad 15:30 Okay, tell me about the optics.
Dr G 15:32 The optics are that these four who are the tribunes of the plebs – not Hortensius – get together and they’re like, oh, no, if you’re going to persecute and prosecute Sempronius, we’re going to turn up every day at the rostra in mourning. Wearing mourning garb as an intense performative display of loyalty for the man who was and shall always be our commander.
Dr Rad 15:58 Exactly. I mean, the loyalty is bizarre, because I swear, there’s like-
Dr G 16:02 It did sound like they really lost that battle. And it was just a nightmare.
Dr Rad 16:05 Exactly. And I don’t see I don’t have there is no mention of any personal connection between these men before this particular battle.
Dr G 16:15 Look, just because we don’t know about it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.
Dr Rad 16:18 This is true, but also, wouldn’t you mention if it was? Anyway Sempronius is clearly counting on the other tribunes using their veto to stop anything bad from happening to him. However, Hortensius calls him out. You’re hiding behind the tribunes! How dare you? What kind of ex-consul are you anyway? Hortensius also turns to the Four Horsemen and says, So what are you going to do? What are you going to do if I continue after Sempronius? Are you just going to undermine the whole idea of the tribunate? How’s that gonna work out for you and all the other random people, if you guys undermine this position that we all hold as tribune of the plebs seems like you’re going to be stripping the people of their rights, am I right?
Dr G 17:14 I don’t know if this feels logical to me. But please continue.
Dr Rad 17:18 Well, the tribune say, We certainly did not intend to overrule whatever the people decide. They’re allowed to vote on things. However – and this is where your story comes in – if you’re going to ignore our pleas for Sempronius’ wellbeing then we are just going to dress in mourning, and as like a show of solidarity, as he’s like, our dad.
Dr G 17:49 Oh, wow.
Dr Rad 17:49 Because he was our commander.
Dr G 17:53 Oh, no, mixing up filial piety with the command structure of the military forces. This is getting messy.
Dr Rad 18:02 I know. It’s really sickening. Now Hortensius, is convinced by this. Yeah, he’s like, okay, okay, put the morning away. We don’t need to get unpleasant.
Dr G 18:13 Let’s not get emotional about it.
Dr Rad 18:16 We don’t need to get fabric involved. Sempronius is free to go. I’m not going to touch him. Because if you guys are so dedicated to him, then he must be worth it. And I was wrong the whole time.
Dr G 18:32 This is – I mean -it just feels the whole thing feels implausible. What kind of story is this?
Dr Rad 18:38 The endnote is the best part because everyone is for once thrilled with the tribune of the plebs – all of them. They’re like, You know what you guys were like super loyal and dedicated. And you, Hortensius, showed yourself to be flexible, reasonable, logical. I think I’ve ever had such a high rating. It’s like five stars across the board for all of the tribunes.
Dr G 19:05 You guys haven’t agreed at all, but you got there in the end.
Dr Rad 19:07 Yeah.
Dr G 19:07 Good job.
Dr Rad 19:08 Yeah. Now, this is where things get really weird in Livy’s account, because it’s like he, most people agree that he abruptly switches his source material, like the main source that he’s consulting, one of the earliest sources. But the one thing that kind of does stay similar all throughout this little next period, is that it seems that maybe Livy’s is dwelling on a theme of moderatio. And this would be a good moment to flag that obviously, because everyone’s being, well, reasonably reasonable. You know.
Dr G 19:46 I don’t think our four horsemen are necessarily demonstrating any moderatio. Like all they’ve done is step up each time. Yeah, and gone. Well, if you’re going to do that, I’m going to do this
Dr Rad 19:59 I guess. I guess
Dr G 20:00 But Hortensius has apparently shown some moderatio.
Dr Rad 20:05 Yeah, he has. I don’t know that everybody is, as you say, but I guess you could say that the other tribunes kind of are in the sense that they don’t use their veto. They’re like we’ll make this a personal show of solidarity. A private-public protest if you will. Yes, anyway. And and now this is where it becomes like an abrupt shift because all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we’ve got this mansion of the Aequians coming in to claim some sort of victory over the Volscians. It seems really weird.
Dr G 20:37 Oh, so when the when the Romans ran away, the Aequians were their being like, Well, I see the Volscii are not quite ready.
Dr Rad 20:48 Well, I don’t even know if it’s like, you know, fresh combat, or if it’s actually what just happened.
Dr G 20:54 Wasn’t there some kind of – I didn’t know the Aequians were involved, but it seems like maybe they inserted themselves when the opportunity arose.
Dr Rad 21:01 I think they did. But also, I think Livy’s also just like, really quickly changed horses, and it doesn’t have the nice flow that I’ve come to expect from Livy’s narrative.
Dr G 21:13 Maybe, yeah, it sounds like Livy’s might be struggling.
Dr Rad 21:16 Indeed. And that’s where he ends the year, which is why it’s even stranger.
Dr G 21:21 P.S. the Aequians. The end.
Dr Rad 21:23 That’s basically what it reads like he’s like, Aequians, and we’re like, wait, what, have we talked about the Aequians? Anytime recently?
Dr G 21:30 Yeah, nothing in any of the material that I’ve been able to scrounge together in preparation has mentioned the Aequians.
Dr Rad 21:35 Exactly. And so without further ado, Dr. G. That means that I am ricocheting into 421 BCE.
Dr G 21:41 Oh, okay. Well, before we head into that direction, I’ll give you some lowdown on some the name Asellius. So we’ve got these tribune of the plebs. One of them is Marcus Asellius. Now, this is the only one for which there is more history attested for the family name.
Dr Rad 21:58 Okay.
Dr G 21:59 So, but not until the second century CE.
Dr Rad 22:04 Once again, we’ve got these later names.
Dr G 22:07 Yeah. So I think this is really interesting, because this is a family that crops up into prominence well after the source material that even we’re consulting. And but so this family is hanging around, but it seems that there are long threads that go back quite a long way for that particular gens. And that is that’s it. That’s my other my other little tidbit of detail.
Dr Rad 22:32 Love it.
Dr G 22:32 And I’m ready to move on
Dr Rad 22:33 I would not have known that without you. And that’s the whole point of the fixes.
Alright, so 421 BCE. We’re back to consuls, I’m afraid.
Dr G 22:42 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Look, my source material. I’m glad you asked.
Dr Rad 22:48 I didn’t. I just assumed.
Dr G 22:52 Didorus Siculus – still missing.
Dr Rad 22:54 Right. Yeah.
Dr G 22:54 Dionysius of Halicarnassus? Missing.
Dr Rad 22:57 Yep.
Dr G 22:58 I’ve got a little bit of Festus.
Dr Rad 23:00 Yeah, so. There is a little bit of Festus that is relevant here. But I’ll let you take that.
Dr G 23:04 And I’ve also got a little bit of Tacitus’ Annals.
Dr Rad 23:07 Yes, I think I know you’re coming. But again, I’m not going to tread on your toes for that. I’m going to let you, I’m gonna let you take that. But do you want to tell us the names of the consuls for this year?
Dr G 23:16 All right. There’s some controversy.
Dr Rad 23:18 Okay.
Dr G 23:19 So it’s Gnaeus or Numerius
Dr Rad 23:22 That is what Livy prefers
Dr G 23:24 Yeah, but nobody else prefers that really. So but we’ll come to that.
Dr Rad 23:29 Well, everyone else has disappeared. So I think they can take a flying leap.
Dr G 23:32 As a praenomen “Numerius” is a little bit a bit unusual.
Dr Rad 23:37 I’ll give you that.
Dr G 23:37 So Gnaeus or Numerius Fabius Vibulanus
Dr Rad 23:43 Definitely heard this name.
Dr G 23:45 Yeah. The Fabii. Well, one of our favourite gens-es at this point in time. Yeah. Well attested, yeah, dramatically, almost dead. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus.
Dr Rad 24:01 Definitely a name we recognise.
Dr G 24:04 Sound familiar.
Dr Rad 24:05 I mean, for heaven’s sakes, there’s just the previous year it was we’ve had a Capitolinus didn’t we?
Dr G 24:09 Yeah, yeah, the beardy ones.
Dr Rad 24:11 Yeah, I particularly like the way that Livy introduces this guy to me because he says the consuls are Numerius Fabius Vibulanus and Titus Quinctius Capitolinus, the son of Capitolinus, and I was like, thanks so much for clearing that up Livy, it’s super clear now who this guy is and who he’s related to.
Dr G 24:28 Nothing quite like those details to really lock you into the narrative.
Dr Rad 24:31 Now, of course, we start in this random place that we finish where – by a lot – Fabius is chosen to be the commander against the Aequians. What?
Dr G 24:42 Well, fair enough.
Dr Rad 24:43 Like what is happening? but nothing is really achieved. So it’s not a glorious battle, because what happens is that Fabius goes off to war with the Aequians. The Aequians, having come in maybe claiming someone else’s victory. I don’t know what’s going on there. They also give a very half hearted effort against the Romans. And so the Romans just super easily managed to triumph over them. It’s a completely shameful defeat from the Aequians. You have to retreat and therefore Fabius is left with nothing to brag about.
Dr G 25:15 So, no triumph?
Dr Rad 25:16 No triumph, but he does get an ovatio (or an ovation), because he had somewhat helped to waft away the stench of Sempronius’ behaviour on the battlefield.
Dr G 25:32 You didn’t lose, and that was good.
Dr Rad 25:34 Yeah. And it wasn’t, you know, disastrous and shameful. We like that. Yeah. More of that.
Dr G 25:43 An ovatio is like a lesser triumph.
Dr Rad 25:46 Yeah, I mean, like, to be honest, it sounds like more than I feel like he deserved.
Dr G 25:49 Yeah, it is still quite a substantial celebration, but the commander walks through the city as part of the procession, rather than being in a chariot.
Dr Rad 25:56 Yes. Obviously, walking in
Dr G 26:00 Walking is not as prestigious.
Dr Rad 26:02 It’s really not. So it’s a bit of a win. But I think everyone feels very ambivalent about this, because everyone is expecting more from the Aequians. Although we certainly didn’t, because the Aequians seem to be randomly placed. So they do. Yeah, it’s it just seems like such a non affair. But then, Dr. G, Mawhahaha the peace was shattered with unexpected and serious quarrels between the plebeians and the patricians. And to that I say, Livy, really? You don’t need to be Cassandra to see this one coming.
Dr G 26:36 I was like, unexpected, surprising?
Dr Rad 26:39 Like, surely this is the most predictable thing in the history of the world.
Dr G 26:44 It has been happening for a while, according even to Livy.
Dr Rad 26:47 Yeah. And of course, it could only happen over a truly hot button issue, which is the doubling of the quaestors.
Dr G 26:57 I wondered where this was going. I was like, is land allotment back on the agenda? No. Okay. Wait, I have a source for this. Excellent.
Dr Rad 27:05 Wait, before you go into it. Are you going to tell us what quaestors are, to begin with? Because we might need to remind people, it’s been a while since we mentioned them.
Dr G 27:12 I’m not sure that I am going to I mean, I, it’s tricky. Quaestors end up being in charge of things. Like, what the treasury?
Dr Rad 27:23 Yeah, like that. What they ended up being in charge of much like aediles is very little, like related to what they do now. Yeah, they are mentioned, actually all the way back in the regal period, as being in charge of helping out with cases of parricidum. So where a family member has killed a family member.
Dr G 27:42 See, I’m glad you’re here, because it’s like of all of the things I decided to look up looking at what the quaestors was did in the early republic was not one of them,
Dr Rad 27:50 Typically, of all the magistracices of this time period, we don’t really know what they do. But because they actually predate-
Yeah, they have a quasi legal function.
Yeah. And they are mentioned in the Twelve Tables. They are mentioned as the quaestores parridici no no, I know that
Dr G 28:10 Parricidium
Dr Rad 28:10 Para-kid-i-ii – quaestores parricidii! Yeah, I don’t know why I’m saying it in Italian
Dr G 28:18 Every time an Italian dies.
Dr Rad 28:18 I just had to do it.
Dr G 28:25 Right. I enjoyed it. So the quaestors. So yeah, we get Tacitus weirdly, as a source for this. This is a guy that’s writing in the like, early second century and late first century CE. So he’s like, you know, a while away, even from Livy, like, over a century later, definitely. And he talks about the quaestors going back to Brutus in 509 BCE. But also notes that two are added to take care of things at Rome, in 421 BCE. So the idea is that they were supposed to accompany the military chest. So that’s Tacitus’ read. So that’s a really interesting sort of progression for where the quaestorship is going to maybe end up.
Dr Rad 29:20 Exactly. Treasury money.
Dr G 29:21 Yeah, treasury and money. And so that’s where Tacitus is. And he’s like, Well, he assumes that in this very early period of the republic that they’ve had two, to look after the war booty essentially like, like the really precious stuff that’s picked up in the battlefield, the quaestors are in charge of like managing that and the security around that. Yeah. And then they decide in this moment that they need to more in Rome itself. Yes. I don’t know who’s been stealing the booty to suggest that that might be necessary.
Dr Rad 29:52 It’s not actually that per se. Basically how this all comes about, is that the consuls say there’s too much paperwork. And you know what? I’m sick of hearing the constant complaint about that. This has been like what?
Dr G 30:04 Red tape, man, red tape – all I want to do is go out and kill people with an army. Come on, come on, come on. I know round up, round up, round up.
Dr Rad 30:11 It’s like every job has a glamorous side and a not so glamorous side guys but anyway.
Dr G 30:16 Guys, I need a PA.
Dr Rad 30:18 Oh, they completely say that. They say, look, there’s a lot of conflict going on. We’re being drowned in admin.
Dr G 30:27 Between the levee; between having to like clean my own leather. It’s a nightmare, I tell you what.
Dr Rad 30:34 What I mean, quite frankly, look at Sempronius. Why didn’t he prepare? Too busy with admin.
Dr G 30:40 I just couldn’t get through the emails. The backlog was shocking.
Dr Rad 30:43 It was choking me. So they want two more quaestors because they just can’t cope. There’s just too many wars going on. And the Senate like totally, completely reasonable, of course, for a number that we need. Now the tribunes of course get wind of this. And they say, well, whoa, whoa, look, while we’re adding two quaestors. I mean, that would make a total of four. Why don’t we say that 50% have to be plebeian, because traditionally quaestors have always been patricians.
Dr G 31:14 Mm hmm. Well, cat amongst the pigeons right there.
Dr Rad 31:18 Well, it seems like a fairly simple request. But the consuls and the senate, of course, have their default reaction of, “I would rather die than see that happen.” And they put up a huge fight, absolutely refused. They’re like no way. No How. However, finally, they decided to make a compromise. They’re going to apply the same rule that they used for military tribunes with consular power, which is that the people can elect whoever they want, maybe to be patricians, maybe to be plebeians. Good luck. That compromise is rejected.
Dr G 31:57 Well, fair enough. I mean, we’ve yet to see any evidence of some real plebeians inside the military tribunate with consular power.
Dr Rad 32:05 Precisely. So they decide we’re just going to have to let go of the whole idea of having more quaestors. We’d rather like neither of us are going to have any more quaestors because we can’t agree where they’re coming from.
Dr G 32:21 So they’re not going to increase them?
Dr Rad 32:23 No, they’re like, You know what,
Dr G 32:24 We’ll just stick with two.
Dr Rad 32:25 Let’s just drop it
Dr G 32:26 Two is fine. The consuls are like, I’ll do my paperwork. Yeah, I hate emails, whatever.
Dr Rad 32:30 Yeah. However, the tribune of the plebs is less keen to kind of let this all go. And their like, you know, all of this has reinvigorated me, refreshed me. And so I’m now going to pursue all these other dangerous and revolutionary ideas that tribunes typically do, such as pushing for an agrarian law.
Dr G 32:57 Uh oh
Dr Rad 32:57 Yeah, instead of like, Whoa, how did this happen? We were just talking about, like, trying to reduce our admin and now we’re back at an agrarian law??
Dr G 33:06 All we said was, if you’re gonna have more quaestors, we want two of them to be us. Not gonna give it to us? Fine. I want all of the public land re allotment to be fixed up yesterday.
Dr Rad 33:18 So the senate like okay, well, clearly, we can’t risk having military tribunes with consular power. We’re going to need to organise consular elections for the next year because we need things to be you know, super stable, really under lock and key. Patricians only. The tribunes however, say, You know what? No, we’re gonna use our vetoes. And so they stop consular elections from being held. Apparently, this is something they can do.
Dr G 33:45 It seems a little bit too early.
Dr Rad 33:49 I know. And also, this is where it starts get really murky. Clearly, I think there is some overlap between the events of 421 and 420 is really unclear. Like when all of this is going down, and how, and that’s because the fricking tribunes stop the consuls being elected and therefore I don’t have a clear end date here.
Dr G 34:06 This is the year that goes forever.
Dr Rad 34:08 Yeah. And so instead of having consuls coming in instead, we have an interrex, and not just an interrex, we have lots of them.
Dr G 34:19 Oh, yes. We’re about to enter very baffling period.
Dr Rad 34:23 It is so weird. So weird
Dr G 34:25 Because an interrex – as the name would suggest – is somebody who comes between kings.
Dr Rad 34:31 Exactly, exactly right. But look, we have heard them use this before in the Republic, but yeah, the fact that it’s still hanging around almost 100 years later, it’s like guys
Dr G 34:43 As a stop gap solution. Yeah. When things really go wrong.
Dr Rad 34:46 You got rid of the kings, you’re designing the new system, be better
Dr G 34:52 At least give people new titles
Dr Rad 34:54 Exactly, like Jesus Christ, like we’ve given you 100 years like freshen up the place a bit. But anyway, so there’s this whole series of interreges apparently taking place. And even this did not happen smoothly because the tribunes are apparently trying really hard to stop the patricians from meeting at all. So when they have to meet to talk about,
Dr G 35:12 They start together in public and patricians just run out them to disperse the crowd.
Dr Rad 35:16 In private as well, like they just seem to be stopping them from having meetings everywhere, because they’re trying to gather so they can appoint the next interrex, because – we probably should remind our listeners of this strategy – the whole idea of an interrex is that the idea is that elite men each take turns holding the ultimate imperium for short periods of time.
Dr G 35:37 Yes, it’s kind of like it’s done by a lot. Or it’s done by time. That’s kind of like there are different systems for measuring it. But the idea is, it’s rotational and everybody understands the nature of the rotation.
Dr Rad 35:48 Yeah, it’s like a patrician hot potato basically. And so they are using their veto to stop them from gathering, to stop them from appointing people, to stop them from ordering consular elections. Exhausting.
Dr G 36:02 Yeah, I mean, it’s been very confusing. I mean, I’ve got I’m just overwhelmed by the confusion of it all. I’ve got no narrative. So I’ve got nothing to base my response on.
Dr Rad 36:11 I’m winding it up, don’t worry. So eventually, we get a guy called Lucius Papirius Mugillanus, who’s made the interrex. Now he decides he’s going to have a go with everyone. So he tells off the senators, he tells off the tribunes of the plebs. He’s like, hello. You’re lucky that the gods have been looking out for Rome because you guys sure as hell haven’t been. You just freaking lucky. I mean, what if? What if they decided once again, to call off the truce? What if the Aequians weren’t complete losers, as they seem to be right now, for the sake of this narrative? Things could go south really quickly for us, guys. We’re not preeminent yet. Okay, what happens in case of an emergency? What happens if you don’t have patricians in charge? Are you mad? No army, no generals to conduct a levy? Oh, my God, you all need to compromise. You all need to give in just a little bit. Just a little bit.
Demonstrate some moderatio, guys.
Oh, yeah, no, that’s exactly what happens. The Senate agree that the whole military tribunes with consular power thing can happen. And the tribunes allow for quaestors provided that they are chosen at the will of the people and can be either patrician or plebeian. Yes, that’s right.
Dr G 37:41 We’re back at square one.
Dr Rad 37:42 That’s right, we’re back at square one, where they could have been months ago, maybe years ago. Who knows how much time has passed while I’ve been dealing with this incompetence?
Dr G 37:50 So many dinner parties broken up and for nothing, just to get back to the beginning again.
Dr Rad 37:54 I know, I know. Now, look, this is one of those episodes in the whole struggle of the orders that definitely some scholars have been like, really? Did this really happen? It also doesn’t seem like the tribunes could actually stop the patricians from eating?
Dr G 38:11 No, I don’t think so. That does seem rather suspect at this point in time.
Dr Rad 38:15 And yeah, but it could be potentially a way of explaining something that really happened, which is a lot of these interreges.
Dr G 38:23 Yes, yeah. Interesting. So that sounds is that is that the wrap up? Okay.
Dr Rad 38:30 I mean, that’s it for 421. Maybe part of 420?
Dr G 38:34 Fair enough, fair enough. So to put things – different spin on things. Okay. One of the things I’ve been doing while I’ve lacked source material is just to read some scholarship, you know, everybody loves a good time. And one of those books is Drogula’s, “Commanders and Command in the Roman Republic and Early Empire”. Not interested in the early empire at this point, but I’m glad the book covers that as well.
Dr Rad 38:56 Can we get this person on the show? That’s like the second article we’ve read.
Dr G 38:59 Yeah, I Well, first, first name Fred. So I think, well, but I wouldn’t presume gender. But “Commanders and Command in the Roman Republic in Early Empire” is looking at what do we think might have been realistically going on in this very early period, and-
Dr Rad 39:19 Nothing.
Dr G 39:21 History was a blank slate, Rome was a tabula rasa. And it only came into being with the Punic Wars. Before then, it didn’t exist at all.
Dr Rad 39:31 There was some huts, that’s about all I feel confident saying.
Dr G 39:34 There were some huts, they definitely were huts. We’ve got some archaeological evidence for huts, which is great.
Dr Rad 39:39 Yeah, there were some temples.
Dr G 39:40 There were some temples. And one of the theories that Drogula is sort of exploring this early period is that you’ve got prominent families and politics operating through prominent families. Sure, which makes sense. Yeah. And so the Fabii – going back to them for a minute and their disastrous, sort of like private war with Veii. Yeah, that’s going back a little ways now. But seeing that as an example of what might actually be happening, instead of having elections, instead of having formal people coming into positions of power, what you’ve got is a kind of like, yeah, it’s warlords and bandits. And people are raising private armies, and going around the place to defend their property. So Rome has this sort of feature about it. And we see it later on as well, where they kind of don’t ever really get to the spot where they have like a proper sort of like, police force or things like that. It’s kind of like the onus is on the individual to look after themselves
Dr Rad 40:36 Oh definitely
Dr G 40:37 And how you go about that. It’s kind of up to you. And if we take that sort of idea, right back into this early period, you’ve got your land holdings, you’ve got the people who are dependent on that land who are loyal to you. You’re divided up into tribes, you’re a prominent family, you’re a tribune, because you’re a leader of a tribe in some respects, or you’ve been drawn from a tribe. So we’ve talked about this idea of where does the name tribune come from? Coming out of that tribal system? Yeah, some kind of leader. And then you’ve got this idea that we’ve also got not consuls, but praetors. Praetor being kind of like a default name for a leader as well.
Dr Rad 41:16 Yeah.
Dr G 41:17 You’ve got people who are like, well, I need to defend my property, because we’re about to get raided by those guys. And I could see him coming over the hill, who’s with me? Yeah. And there’s everybody’s got a vested interest in the local area to get on board with that, because better to defend it together than not, you got this smelly slaughters individual. Yeah, this swilling mix of people rising to prominence, who are able to raise their own armies. And that driving the politics in this central meeting area of these tribes, which is these little hills that are getting more and more populous, that becomes Rome. Yeah. And this idea, I think, is really useful and interesting for understanding some of this stuff, because Livy has to navigate and Dionysus – whenever, whenever I have him – have to navigate this idea that Rome gets rid of the kings, and is, in their mind kind of already a fully fledged Republic, before it would be really possible for them to have figured out how they’re going to do it.
Dr Rad 42:17 Yes.
Dr G 42:17 And part of what we’re seeing is this ongoing process as I’m trying to figure it out, not really getting it right. Sometimes it working. Sometimes it’s not. Sometimes you got to have interreges. What does that even mean if you’re dealing with a period of like war bands or warlords, and like roving armies?
Dr Rad 42:34 I’m down to this idea of the Rome of this period actually being a chaotic mess-
Dr G 42:40 I think it might be
Dr Rad 42:41 -where they haven’t figured out what they’re doing exactly in place of the kings. I mean, you know, you think about the period that’s better documented, like when Rome collapses in the “West”, that whole idea that, you know, feudalism springs up to take its place, because people, as you say, need to defend their local area. And there are some people that are better equipped to be the leaders in that scenario, whether it’s because they already have more people that are pledged to them, or they have more material wealth of some kind. Like, it’s totally clear that that is probably what is happening here. Not necessarily in the sense of, “You, sir, if you pledge yourself to me,”
Dr G 43:17 “I shall advance you.”
Dr Rad 43:19 “Bow down before me.” But in that sense of, “I’m the strongest guy in this area.”
Dr G 43:24 “Better to be on my side, then against me. You on my side?” And you’re like, “Yes, sir. Yes, I am.”
Dr Rad 43:31 And it would explain so much.
Dr G 43:33 “I’m not gonna burn down your farm … yet.”
Dr Rad 43:37 “Those guys might if I don’t help you.”
Dr G 43:40 “If you pay me a little bit of cash, I’ll make sure that I come back if they ever return.”
Dr Rad 43:44 Yeah, exactly. It’s I mean, it makes complete sense that when you get rid of a system, like the kings, that this would be exactly what takes place.
Dr G 43:52 Yeah. And it might also help explain why we’ve got these periods where – and because we’re in the middle of this period now, and it’s going to go on for quite some time where we’ve got military tribunes with consular power, not consuls – And this is part of like this chaotic time where it’s like, there is clearly more than a couple of people who are holding imperium. And running around with an armed force. And this period of Rome sort of chaotic, coming together and trying to figure out who they are while also facing off against just about everybody else in the region.
Dr Rad 44:25 Yeah.
Dr G 44:25 We’re right in the middle of the drama now.
Dr Rad 44:29 100% I love it. All right. Well, should we wrap up there Dr. G?
Dr G 44:32 Let’s.
Dr Rad 44:33 Okay. That means that it’s time for the Partial Pick!
Uhhh, I’m just gonna cut that out.
Dr G 44:47 Why? I’m still so sad
Dr Rad 44:49 Because you’re stealing Igor’s gig. Have you thought about that? He’s in a union.
Dr G 44:53 Wow. Igor. If you’re listening. I want you to know that I’m not trying to steal your job.
Dr Rad 45:02 All right, Dr G., tell us about the Partial Pick.
Dr G 45:04 Well, it is time to see if Rome can win 50 Golden Eagles.
Dr Rad 45:10 I’m not betting anything on it.
Dr G 45:13 They’re up for 10 Golden Eagles across five categories.
Dr Rad 45:16 All right, give me the categories with the first one?
Dr G 45:18 Military clout.
Dr Rad 45:21 Look, I mean, maybe, I guess the whole Aequians thing, something that’s a very confused narrative. And it’s even then, like, even Livy’s like, “look, it’s not great.”
Dr G 45:32 How many points are you going to give it an ovatio?
Dr Rad 45:35 I mean, it’s an ovatio. It’s a pity ovatio. I mean, let’s let’s be real. It’s a patrician pity party, because they’re trying to distract people from the fact that Sempronius really stuffed up. So I feel like I cannot give it more than a three.
Dr G 45:50 All right, fair fair. All right, diplomacy.
Dr Rad 45:54 Hmm.
Dr G 45:55 Well, there was some moments of acquiescence that come through when we get four quaestors that could be elected, two of whom could be plebeian perhaps.
Dr Rad 46:10 And there’s also the whole, you know, Hortensius and the four horsemen of the apocalypse thing.
Dr G 46:15 They do have a moment where they come together and find an accord.
Dr Rad 46:21 Yes. Damn you, Livy, and your theme of moderatio. So I guess I don’t feel like it’s much because there was a lot of fighting before that one that you mentioned. And it was a lot of fighting before the one that I mentioned. So I feel like I don’t know maybe again, another three.
Dr G 46:36 Oh, I feel like a four.
Dr Rad 46:38 Okay, fine.
Dr G 46:38 You know, give them two each.
Dr Rad 46:39 Right. Okay, done.
Dr G 46:43 Expansion.
Dr Rad 46:44 No. Feels like a really long time since we had some fresh territory.
Dr G 46:51 Oh, Rome, Rome, Rome. When shall you’ll be great? Never. That’s a zero. Okay, the fourth category is virtus.
Dr Rad 47:00 Hmmm. Look, there’s some interesting behaviour going on here, I’ll give you that. But I don’t think any of it qualifies as virtus.
Dr G 47:07 I would say that perhaps the very selfless defence of Sempronius by the four tribune of the plebs who served under him under a disastrous campaign, and that filial parallel that they make? That the commander is akin to their father.
Dr Rad 47:25 Yeah.
Dr G 47:25 Fascinating stuff. I feel like that’s got a bit of virtus in it.
Dr Rad 47:28 Okay. Okay. I’m not gonna give them a lot. Maybe like a two? I don’t know. It seems like an empty gesture.
Dr G 47:38 Yeah. Look.
Dr Rad 47:39 Hortensius was fake anyway!
Dr G 47:41 Talking you into it, aren’t I? But I do think there is some element of virtus there because of that parallel with with pietas, so yeah, I don’t mind if it’s low. I’m not wedded to a number on this one. I don’t, I don’t have a strong feeling one way or the other. But yeah, I think something,
Dr Rad 47:57 I think it would make a mockery of all Romans who threw themselves into the heat of battle-
Dr G 48:03 gained their wound on the front-
Dr Rad 48:04 and got slaughted. And these guys just said, “Hey, maybe we’ll wear some different clothes.” So I feel like a two is fair.
Dr G 48:13 He threw on his best black dress, and I’m calling that virtue. And our final category is the citizen score.
Dr Rad 48:24 Citizens remarkably absent from all this bickering going on, but I feel like it can’t be pleasant for them.
Dr G 48:32 Look, they’ve had some maybe they’ve been involved in this Aequian situation.
Dr Rad 48:37 They would definitely had to have been.
Dr G 48:38 That would have wouldn’t have been great, but they did win. So that could have been worse.
Dr Rad 48:42 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Dr G 48:43 But then also, if we’ve got now for quaestors, and two can be drawn from the plebeian class. That seems like there’s the potential for greater representation.
Dr Rad 48:53 True. Always the potential though, isn’t it?
Dr G 48:57 I’m emphasising the potential. I’ve been reading a little bit of Rome’s history. And I’m not feeling confident that we’re going to see two quaestors.
Dr Rad 49:06 Maybe a three. Like, you know, I mean, it’s not they’re not really explicitly mentioned, which makes me think that nothing particularly out of the ordinary is happening, either good or bad.
Dr G 49:19 All right. All right. I’m happy to go with that.
Dr Rad 49:21 Okay. That means, Dr G., that we ended up with a grand total of 12 Golden Eagles for Rome, and that’s over two years, so that’s even more pathetic than it sounds.
Dr G 49:34 Oh, Rome. Well, okay.
Dr Rad 49:38 I am very excited though, for you. Because if you join me next episode, Dr. G.
Dr G 49:43 Oh, boy, I’m very excited. There are things on the horizon. Stay tuned listeners.
Dr Rad 49:48 I just gonna say one word: Vestals.
Dr G 49:51 Yes. Hold that thought in your mind. Yeah. Well, before we go, I’d like to thank all of our patrons who are are marvellous and wonderful, and encourage anybody who enjoys our work to think about supporting us as well. We’d love to have you.
Dr Rad 50:08 Why not? Why not? Why not make this a full time gig so that we can really speed through Rome’s history at a much faster pace than we have so far.
Dr G 50:17 But also, if you’re fiscally doing it tough, which I totally understand, and, you know, podcasts are a fabulous free resource. We’d love to have a review written by you if you enjoy our work, because those reviews actually make our day every time we see them.
Dr Rad 50:33 They absolutely do. And you can also just tell someone old school style about the show and say, “Give it a listen.”
Dr G 50:40 “See what you think.”
Dr Rad 50:42 Exactly, yes.
Dr G 50:44 All right. Well, it has been, as always an absolute pleasure to chat with you, Dr. Rad.
Dr Rad 50:50 Agree Dr. G. Now for anyone who wants to know all that our sources for this episode and our credits, please check out our website. That’s where we post it all. And our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Quo Vadis (1951) - Part One
May 25, 2023
This episode we return to the ‘Golden Age of Hollywood’ with a classic sword and sandal epic, Quo Vadis (1951). This film is available through many streaming platforms and we highly recommend revisiting it.
In Part One of two episodes on Quo Vadis, we examine the context for the film and the plot.
Quo Vadis (1951) helped to ignite Hollywood’s passion for ancient epics in this decade. It was a smash hit with some of the legendary stars of the era, including Robert Taylor, Deborah Kerr and Peter Ustinov. This film is not only epic in terms of length, but in terms of all the aspects that you could discuss in connection with it.
Special Episode – Quo Vadis (1951) – Part One
Resistance
The tale itself has a lengthy backstory which takes us all the way back to 19th century Poland. Henryk Sienkiewicz wrote the book in a serialised format between 1894-1896. Poland had been going a through a tough time over the course of the preceding century, in the sense that it did not exist independently between 1795 and 1918. During this period, the Catholic Church was crucial in preserving Polish culture. Sienkiewicz often wrote historical novels that would lift the spirits of his fellow poles, and Quo Vadis was no exception. For Sienkiewicz, the triumph of Christian characters such as Lygia and Ursus (meant to be from Lugii, i.e. Poland) represent the ultimate triumph of Poland over its cruel oppressors, with Nero representing nations such as Russia, Austro-Hungary and Prussia.
Sienkiewicz’s novel was well-received, and was therefore adapted into toga plays, operas, and several films. The earlier film versions were made in Europe, including the notable 1912 silent classic.
Join us for the fascinating background of the 1951 film and stay tuned for Part Two!
Quo Vadis – Roll Call!
There are a LOT of characters to keep track of in a film of this length, so if you need a handy reference, check out the cast list on IMDB.
The main people that you need to know for our episode include:
Lygia
Fictional main lady love interest. Christian, hostage-turned-adoptive daughter of Roman general Aulus Plautus, and his wife, Pomponia Graecina.
Marcus Vinicius
Fictional main manly love interest. Roman, not Christian (yet). Militaristic, aggressive to start, turns all moral as the film progresses.
Lygia (Deborah Kerr) and Marcus Vinicius (Robert Taylor) in the courtyard of her adoptive parents’ home in Rome. Source: FilmAffinity.
Emperor Nero
Historical figure. Really was Roman emperor from 54-68 CE. Known as the last emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Really was terrible, although maybe not quite as unrelentingly awful as many suggest – including this film. Probably not as amusing as Peter Ustinov!
A gold coin showing the obverse portrait of Nero.Bust of the historical NeroPeter Ustinov as Nero in Quo Vadis (1951)
Poppaea Sabina
Historical figure. Elite Roman lady. Complicated love life. Winds up as Nero’s second wife. Called beautiful but awful in the surviving sources. We say – the jury is out on that one. Typical fun, adulteress type character used to contrast to the ‘good girl’, Lygia. Historically, she is murdered by Nero while pregnant with their child. In Quo Vadis, Nero strangles her. An awful demise in reality and in film.
Statue of the historical Poppaea Sabina found in Olympia, GreecePatricia Laffan as Poppaea Sabina in Quo Vadis (1951)
Petronius (Gaius Petronius Arbiter)
Historical figure. Served as governor of Bithynia and was consul in either 62 or 63 CE. Did a decent job, but in his personal life seems to have made pleasure his main goal. Dubbed the ‘Arbiter of Elegance’ by Nero. Accused of being part of a conspiracy against Nero and suicided whilst chatting casually to friends. Thought to be the author of the novel, The Satyricon, which is a very unusual piece because it does NOT focus on the elite and is pretty … eye-opening. Possibly makes fun of Nero through the gross figure of Trimalchio, a freedmen who has become a wealthy show-off with no taste. Close associate of Nero. In the movie, Petronius is Vinicius’ uncle and an elegant, witty, intelligent member of Emperor Nero’s inner-circle. He also has a weird obsession with the enslaved Eunice…
From left: Petronius (Leo Genn) attempting to advise Nero (Peter Ustinov) in a scene from Quo Vadis (1951). Image source: FilmFanatic
Ursus
Fictional character. Bodyguard of Lygia, Christian convert. Super strong.
Peter
That’s St Peter to you! Follower of Jesus Christ. Christian (to state the obvious). Supposedly was crucified upside down, making him a martyr, which Sienkiewicz worked into his novel. Has a very famous domed building named after him.
Pomponia Graecina
Historical figure. Elite Roman lady who was related to the Julio-Claudian dynasty. Mentioned by Tacitus for her ballsy behaviour. She wore mourning for DECADES after Julia was bumped off by Messalina, which could have led to her own downfall, but Claudius did not punish her. (Julia Livia, granddaughter of Tiberius, daughter of Livilla and Drusus Caesar – mother of Rubellius Plautus). Her husband was told to deal with her privately after she was charged for believing in an “alien superstition”, which some have taken to mean she dabbled in Christianity. Good choice to turn into a character with Christian leanings in Quo Vadis! Adoptive mother of Lygia in the film. V V Virtuous.
Aulus Plautius
Historical figure. Really was a Roman general who won an ovation for a campaign in Britain. Really married to Pomponia Graecina.
Acte
Historical figure. An imperial freedwoman that teenage Nero fell for HARD, much to his mother’s displeasure. Suetonius reports that she was one of the few to attend the interment of his ashes, so her devotion in the film tracks. In the film, not a Christian but still a good woman as she is virtuous and loyal. As the movie is set late in Nero’s reign, it makes sense that he has moved on from her by now. Sympathetic to Christians, so that’s something. Is in love with Nero but keeps it real with him. Helps him to commit suicide when everyone else has abandoned him. A good choice, as Nero’s suicide was supposedly aided by his slave.
Eunice
Fictional enslaved woman. For reasons that make absolutely no sense, she has a crush on her master, Petronius. He eventually loves her back – depends on the version of Quo Vadis that you consult as to how that happens. It’s fair to say, we’re not keen on her storyline.
Babington, B.; Evans, P. W., Biblical Epics: Sacred Narrative in the Hollywood Cinema (Manchester University Press, New York: 1993).
Cyrino, M., Big Screen Rome (Blackwell Publishing, Oxford: 2005).
Elley, D., The Epic Film: Myth and History (Routledge and Kegan Paul, Suffolk and London: 1984).
Joshel, S.; Malamud, M.; Wyke, M., ‘Introduction’, in Imperial Projections: Ancient Rome in Modern Popular Culture, ed. S. Joshel, M. Malamud & M. Wyke (John Hopkins University Press, Baltimore and London: 2001), 1-22. And this what Dr Rad was quoting in the episode!
Malamud, M., Ancient Rome and Modern America (Wiley-Blackwell, Oxford: 2009).
Mayer, D., Playing Out Empire: Ben-Hur and Other Toga Plays and Films, 1883-1908, A Critical Anthology (Clarendon Press, New York: 1994).
Scodel, R.; Bettenworth, A. Whither Quo Vadis? (Malden, Massachusetts, Blackwell Publications: 2009).
Skwara, E. “Quo Vadis on Film (1912, 1925, 1951, 1985, 2001): The Many Faces of Antiquity.” Clássica (São Paolo) 16, no. 2 (2013): 163-174.
Solomon, J., The Ancient World in the Cinema (Yale University Press, Michigan: 2001).
Wyke, M., Projecting the Past: Ancient Rome, Cinema and History (Routledge, London: 1997).
Wyke, M., ‘Projecting Ancient Rome’, in The Historical Film: History and Memory in Media, ed. M. Landy (Rutgers University Press, New Jersey: 2001), 125-42.
You Must Remember This (7 March, 2016). The Blacklist Part 5: The Strange Love of Barbara Stanwyck: Robert Taylor.
The classic film poster for Quo Vadis, the Roman and Christian epic! Image course: Wikipedia.
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Automated Transcript
Edited for clarity! The AI does seem to have challenges with both Latin and Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:08 Welcome to this special episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr. Rad and normally Dr. G and I discuss the history of Rome from the founding of the city. But today we begin a deep dive into Quo Vadis 1951. We ended up talking for so long about this epic that we have split the episode into two parts. This is part one of our coverage of Quo Vadis, in which we will examine the context and the plot. We hope that you enjoy this sword and sandal classic as much as we did.
Dr G 0:54 Hello, and welcome to this very special episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G
Dr Rad 1:03 And I am Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:05 And we are so excited because we’re going to be talking about the film, the film,
Dr Rad 1:12 Indeed
Dr G 1:13 Quo Vadis.
Dr Rad 1:14 Yes. And now we have talked about this on someone else’s podcast before but it was years ago really a long time ago. We’ve never done it just the two of us. So we thought we would revisit because as our time of recording it is Easter.
Dr G 1:29 It is Easter. And we did have a special request come through from one of our supporters. So shout out to you.
Dr Rad 1:37 Yeah
Dr G 1:38 This is Quo Vadis
Dr Rad 1:40 Indeed
Dr G 1:40 From us.
Dr Rad 1:41 So Quo Vadis is one of the biggest blockbuster films – sword and sandals – of the 1950s it really kicks off the decade.
Dr G 1:53 I was gonna say this is 1951.
Dr Rad 1:55 Exactly.
Dr G 1:56 And boy is the bar set high. Because this film is probably what just as long as “The Fall of the Roman Empire”. But better, like I didn’t get bored.
Dr Rad 2:04 Ah, that’s good to hear! Well see, I never know how people are going to respond to all these different ones. But yes, it was definitely I think the film that kind of set the tone for the decade you know, had Hollywood chasing the ruins constantly like this is where we’re going to make money people. This is how we’re going to save our industry. But it didn’t just come out of nowhere, Dr. G. So I thought before we actually talk about the 1951 film, we have to acknowledge some of the background.
Dr G 2:35 Ah a true historian you are
Dr Rad 2:37 Can’t help myself, because this is actually based on a blockbuster novel.
Dr G 2:44 Yes. And the success of the novel is part of what engenders the film.
Dr Rad 2:48 Exactly, exactly. So it was written in the 19th century like right at the end, it was appearing in sort of a serialised version between 1894 and 1896. Originally written in Polish, because the author was Polish. And unsurprisingly, so far makes sense. Yeah, his name was Henryk Sienkiewicz. I think that’s how you pronounce it anyway. And he he was known for writing quite a few novels, basically historical novels, generally ones that I think, showed the Polish people in a way that was going to lift morale for the people of his own time. And that I think, has a lot to do with what Poland was dealing with at this point in time. And I’ll come to that in a moment. But essentially, in this particular book that he was writing, it’s meant to be that the Christians kind of stand for, like the very earliest version of the Catholic Church, which had come to be very important for representing Polish interests against the other nations that wanted to control Poland at this point in time.
Dr G 2:48 Fair enough. Fair enough.
Dr Rad 3:58 Yeah. But I think also, it was also maybe sparked by the fact that there were large scale excavations going on in Rome at around the time that he was writing as well, from about 1870 to 1914.
Dr G 4:14 There’s lots of things being uncovered. And lots of exciting finds being shared across Europe.
Dr Rad 4:19 Indeed, yeah, because Poland, Poland has such a sad history, there is no independent Poland between 1795 and 1918, essentially, but resistance continues throughout this entire time. And the Catholic Church is just crucial for trying to preserve Polish culture, when it’s going through one of those classic periods of oppression where, you know, occupying powers are saying, “Hey, you can’t speak your language. No, not even in school”, you know, so they’re trying to preserve their identity and that sort of thing. So, one of the main characters of the novel is a girl called Lygia.
Dr G 4:57 And would I be right guessing that this is supposed to be a stand-in for Poland?
Dr Rad 5:00 Yes. As well as the blonde hair, yeah, as well as her kind of servant Ursus. So both of them are meant to be representing Catholic Poland and the Polish people.
Dr G 5:15 Nice. All right.
Dr Rad 5:17 And the fact that Nero does not end well in this novel is meant to be a bit of a threat, I think, against the various countries that are exploiting Poland at this point in time, namely, Russia, Austro-Hungary, and Prussia, not to be confused with Russia.
Dr G 5:37 All of whom would be utilising Roman symbolism as part of their regalia as part of their politics. So this is not a huge jump for the imagination of the Polish reader to be like, “Oh, I see where you’re going here.”
Dr Rad 5:52 Yeah, definitely. So I just thought that was really interesting to note and Quo Vadis, did become an international bestseller was published in many different translations. So lots of people end up becoming familiar with this particular work. In fact, in 1905, Sienkiewicz, our author, was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature
Dr G 6:12 Well, but not for Quo Vadis? For something else?
Dr Rad 6:15 I actually feel like it was for Quop Vadis, but now I’m doubting myself. Maybe it’s just the way I’ve organised my notes where I’m like Quo Vadis, international bestseller, awarded Nobel Prize. Either way, he’s a good writer.
Dr G 6:31 He’s doing well for himself.
Dr Rad 6:32 Yeah, people are captured by the story. And it ends up being adapted many times into plays into operas. And eventually, there are multiple film versions of this particular novel. I thought it might be a good point, however, to pause and talk a little bit about when this is supposedly set. The context.
Dr G 6:54 Yeah, so we’ve got – we’re in the late period of Nero’s reign, from what we can tell.
Dr Rad 7:02 Yeah.
Dr G 7:03 There is the story of Agrippina, his mother, already having been knocked off.
Dr Rad 7:09 Yes.
Dr G 7:09 He’s also gotten rid of Octavia.
Dr Rad 7:13 First one.
Dr G 7:13 Yes. And he’s now married to somebody called Poppaea.
Dr Rad 7:19 Yes. So Nero, Nero is someone who’s pretty infamous. But just in case you don’t know who the Emperor Nero is – and that’s completely fine – he is part of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, draw their descent from well, I mean,
Dr G 7:33 Julius Caesar, ultimately, but most people leverage the connection to Augustus.
Dr Rad 7:38 I was going to say, it’s really Augustus they’re concerned about and one of the Claudian gens.
Dr G 7:43 One of those Claudians. One of them in there somewhere.
Dr Rad 7:47 That blended together in this amazing McFlurry of a family. And Nero when he comes to power in 54. See, he is a teenager, about 16 years old about to turn 17 when he comes into power. And if you’re thinking to yourself, I don’t think I trust teenagers with that much power. You’d be correct.
Dr G 8:10 Yes, you shouldn’t. And we don’t recommend putting them into power that young because, well, there’s plenty of historical evidence to suggest they cannot handle the heady heights of power at that age.
Dr Rad 8:21 Yeah, particularly when you have a mother who, whilst amazing is extremely dominating, like Agrippina the Younger, who may very well have committed murder of her awn uncle slash husband, in order to make you emperor.
Dr G 8:35 Oft!
Dr Rad 8:36 Yeah. So in spite of all of this, allegedly, the first few years of Nero’s reign started. Yeah, well, I suppose you could say.
Dr G 8:46 There is talk of the five good years of Nero.
Dr Rad 8:50 Yeah.
Dr G 8:50 Where he’s following his advisers. He’s got a few: Seneca is probably the most famous of them.
Dr Rad 8:56 Yeah.
Dr G 8:57 And Agrippina seems to also be a moderating maternal force. She may be quite domineering, but Nero seems to –
Dr Rad 9:06 Sometimes it’s a good thing
Dr G 9:06
to be able to go along with that initially.
Dr Rad 9:09 Yeah. And Burrus head of his Praetorian Guard set. Yeah, absolutely. All these people seem to be actually the ones calling the shots. And that’s from the good thing, because I don’t think Nero is particularly interested in the reality of politics. He’s okay with the benefits, but I don’t think he’s super interested in ruling per se. Unless it’s like, get me another eunuch.
Dr G 9:38 Yeah, look, he’s young. He’s got a lot to learn and maybe he steps into leadership in a slightly bigger way as time goes on. Certainly he makes a play to be the one who gets to decide things ultimately, and we see the shift away from what is thought of as the five good years into like, “Oh, Nero’s in charge now.”
Dr Rad 9:59 Yeah,
Dr G 10:00 “Oh, well then!”
Dr Rad 10:01 How’s that gonna go for everyone? Not Great.
Dr G 10:04 Look, if this film is anything to go by: pretty terribly.
Dr Rad 10:09 The historical accuracy we will get to that in a sec. But yeah, the major I think signs of like a turning point is that number one in 59 CE Agrippina the Younger is murdered by Nero. And I don’t think anybody disputes that.
Dr G 10:23 Everybody seems to credit him as being the killer. Yeah, there are various methods and when the collapsible boat doesn’t work out, he moves on to more fatal measures.
Dr Rad 10:35 More straightforward, certainly. And then a few years after that, Burrus dies. And Seneca also appears to take a step back, maybe because he’s losing influence. And this is around the time that his marriage falls apart with Octavia, his first wife is very popular with the people and also one of his relatives. Creepy. Yes, but let’s not dwell on it.
Dr G 11:00 Pretty normal for the Julio-Claudians.
Dr Rad 11:02 Yeah, exactly. They could look they could be closer related, let’s just say, and he starts hanging out with this other elite woman who’s apparently far more depraved Poppaea Sabina. Eventually, she will become his next wife. But he starts making more audacious moves after 62 – not just because he gets rid of Octavia and when I say it gets rid of her he doesn’t just divorce her. He also puts her to death in a really terrible way, which does not win him any friends. But in 64, we start to see Nero performing publicly on stage which is a real no-no for anyone in the elite, but particularly the emperor.
Dr G 11:40 Ah, yeah. So Nero has this reputation as somebody who enjoys the arts, enjoys the theatre. And while you might think to yourself, well, they’re innocent diversions, and many people enjoy the theatre and the arts
Dr Rad 11:54 Without being raving psychopathic murderer and mother.
Dr G 11:57 It’s not quite the same in ancient Rome, some forms of entertainment are considered very low brow. And for Nero himself to be a stage performer is considered well outside the bounds of what is morally and socially acceptable for somebody of an elite stature.
Dr Rad 12:19 Oh, definitely. And I think it also has to do with the idea of putting yourself publicly on display in that way, like using your body in that kind of a way
Dr G 12:28 Oh, hello.
Dr Rad 12:29 Yeah, it just it just ugh.
Dr G 12:31 But apparently, he counted himself as being quite the artiste. Yeah, a bit of a singer. Yeah, a bit of a instrumentalist.
Dr Rad 12:37 Oh, what can’t you do, Dr. G, is really the question? Or at least what won’t he pretend he can’t do.
Dr G 12:44 The other problem with this kind of thing is from a Roman perspective is these kinds of pursuits are also seen as being a little bit too Greek.
Dr Rad 12:52 Yes. And we know that Nero seems to have been very fond of Greek culture.
Dr G 12:56 And yes, for the Romans, this is concerning because they feel the Greeks are a little bit too effeminate for their liking.
Dr Rad 13:04 Way too soft. That’s not how you conquer the world – can be tough. The Romans, apparently, yeah. Anyway, it’s in at 65 that we have the Great Fire of Rome, we’ll get to that. I’m not going to talk about the accuracy of this event right now. I mean, there is a fire. Don’t get me wrong. That’s true.
Dr G 13:20 Rome definitely suffers from a fire and there’s definitely a rebuilding programme which Nero leads.
Dr Rad 13:25 Yeah. So there’s a very big fire very damaging, not uncommon to have a fire and we’re in but a fire on this scale is unusual. And then of course, we have one of the largest and probably better known conspiracy against your in that same year, the Pisonian conspiracy. However, Nero still –
Dr G 13:46 He survived!
Dr Rad 13:47 Yeah, he performs at the Neronia, a Greek festival he throws.
Dr G 13:53 Named after himself, Oh, how sweet!
Dr Rad 13:55 I think we’re getting a bit of a feel for him so far. And then we see a real degeneration. I think after this point, you see the death of Poppaea also, allegedly, because of Nero’s actions, he murders her, with the plague in Rome in 66 CE, which, again, is not Nero’s fault, but it’s not great. And many people are being put to death in this year. On top of that, nothing to do with the plague, just because of the conspiracy of the previous year. And if that weren’t enough, there’s another conspiracy in 66. Nero still goes on holiday in Greece. And there’s a revolt in Judea.
Dr G 13:55 Ah yes.
Dr Rad 13:58 Yeah, which isn’t great. And then in 67 CE, we start to see the execution of very competent and popular generals like a guy called Corbulo, which doesn’t again, win Nero any friends, and finally in 68, this is where we’re going to see one of the more notable revolts against Nero, mostly because it’s successful and near will eventually be ousted from power and commit suicide.
He comes to a sticky end.
Yeah. So that’s just a bit of a rough context. For those of you who don’t know Nero particularly well about when Quo Vadis is set because Quo Vadis is taking place in these latter years as you said.
Dr G 15:15 Yeah, we’re definitely in the post five good years by the time we see Nero on screen in Quo Vadis. He is married to Poppaea Sabina. Yeah. And that is where all of this is heading. And we also see the way that Nero was constructed in this film is very much in service of the broader Christianizing narrative, which is the dominant narrative for this whole film.
Dr Rad 15:41 I’m so glad you said that Dr. G, because one of the things I wanted to mention is that, I think one of the forms of adaptation that has a real legacy in the films that we see toga plays. Now toga plays were very popular in the 19th century, and even I think, into the early 20th century, to be honest, the Quo Vadis versions were not necessarily themselves, like huge smash hits like they did, okay. But the hallmarks of a toga play, I think you can see in the film version, so for example, the fact that you have to have this kind of generic Christianity, because you don’t want to specialise or get specific, because that way, everyone who’s even remotely Christian can endorse the film as being, you know, leading the way with Christianity and that sort of thing. But perhaps more important than that, even are the female characterizations that you tend to see spring up in toga plays. So you often have a Christian female in these productions, who is self-sacrificing, domestic, and she has a interesting influence over the more aggressive, perhaps bolder, smarter, even funnier, perhaps even more attractive male in the story.
Dr G 17:03 Well, well, well, I think there’s also some interesting parallels to be drawn between the way that these kinds of films and it sounds like these toga plays as well, that I’m less familiar with, are also doing a very similar thing to the way that Christian philosophical literature from the second and third century CE are doing in terms of building a convincing case for why it would be good for you to also be Christian.
Dr Rad 17:29 Yes, definitely. Well, I think that’s the interesting thing about toga plays, and then sword and sound type films or, you know, just films about Rome in general, in that Rome, for both the British and North Americans in the Victorian age, they’re often the bad guys in these sorts of things, you know, these toga plays in the early films, and even the later films, to be honest. But even though they’re the bad guys, and therefore they are the other, because of course, Britain and North America see themselves as being on the side of Christianity. But at the same time, there’s obviously got to be a lot that they recognise in themselves in terms of empire: wanting power wanting conquest, you know, the pillars of civilization.
Dr G 18:16 Oh, it’s the duelling sides of the soul, isn’t it? It’s that desire for the material gain that Rome represents so well. Yeah. And I think spiritual richness of the Christian soul.
Dr Rad 18:28 Yeah. And I always have this phrase in my head, which I didn’t actually need you to write it down, even though I have to because it really stood out for me when I was doing my research into this kind of stuff from Mayer and he says Rome and its empire were painfully familiar. I think that always sums up very well the kind of relationship that the British and American audiences are going to continue to have with Rome. Now, of course, Quo Vadis, does make it to the screen very early, in fact, and it has been adapted many times. We’re focusing on the 1951 version, but there are a couple of silent versions and there was a version from 2001. That was a mini series in 1985. You know, Quo Vadis is one of those ones that people keep going back to, like Ben Hur. And as we know, Hollywood likes to repeat success story.
Dr G 19:16 They certainly do.
Dr Rad 19:17 Hey, this works. And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Nero’s reign really works on a Hollywood level, because it allows you to have this extravaganza of consumption and excess and lavishness on the screen whilst also being like it’s not cool.
Dr G 19:40 Oh, guys, don’t do do this. Look on but a heaven forfend that you do this?
Dr Rad 19:49 Yeah, exactly. So there was a very famous version in 1912, directed by Enrico Guazzoni. And this is generally seen as a pretty spectacular early film, you know, because they’re still experimenting with the the medium and that sort of thing. So it’s seen as having some really interesting technological innovations, which makes the story I think, much more powerful. And then we have another version in 1925, which is also interesting, because of course, it’s like the rise of fascism is happening in that at that point in time. So it’s not overly influenced by that. But anyway, but we do want to focus on the 1951 version today. So let’s skip ahead to that. Shall we talk about the general plot of the 1951 version is a bit different to the novel.
Dr G 20:38 All right. So Quo Vadis, 1951. So we’ve got essentially a cast of our Roman characters and our Christian characters. Yes. And we start with our Romans, we’ve got a Roman commander coming back to Rome, yeah, as you should, after successfully leading these legions over in Britain or whatnot. And where this sort of takes off is that he’s not allowed to go into the city straightaway, he’s got to camp outside. And he finds out later that this is for good reasons. Nero wants to put on a proper display with a whole bunch of legions and commanders coming back soon. But this means that our main character Marcus Vinicius has to end up staying with a friend, rather than popping home and doing his own thing.
Dr Rad 21:25 Awkward crashing on the triclinium.
Dr G 21:27 Yeah. And it’s a guy that he’s known for a long time, used to be a Roman commander himself. So they’ve got a history there. And that’s nice. But what seems to have happened that maybe Vinicius has hasn’t picked up on between the last time he saw this guy is that this family has become Christian.
Dr Rad 21:43 Gasphow disgusting!
Dr G 21:47 You know, he kind of doesn’t come into this knowledge for quite some time. He’s –
Dr Rad 21:51 They’re secretive!
Dr G 21:52 Yeah, he’s pretty oblivious and they’re really not being overt about it. They’re not being like, “Ooh, something new in town. Have you tried Christianity?” They’ve been very calm, very quiet. And it’s during this moment that Vinicius is also runs into their daughter, the daughter of this guy and his wife, Lygia, in the household. And he’s like, you know, every time the camera pans to her, it’s a Vaseline moment. She is. It is incredible. But he immediately starts to deploy his – what I think he thinks is charismatic charm – but is really Roman boorishness.
Dr Rad 22:32 Well for particularly someone like her and she’s, she’s an interesting character because she is meant to be a hostage of the Lygian king, but she’s become like a daughter to these people.
Dr G 22:42 Well, she’s – they say – that she’s been adopted.
Dr Rad 22:45 Yes, exactly.
Dr G 22:46 And they’ve taken her in as their own.
Dr Rad 22:48 Yeah
Dr G 22:48 But she is a hostage of a foreign kingdom. And she does have a bodyguard, who’s also from a kingdom who also lives in the household. Yeah, and this whole arrangement is very interesting. But also Vinicius is kind of like just sort of like tramples all over things, tries to do a bit of a clumsy seduction. After he’s just seen her for the first time. And she’s not having a bar of that.
Dr Rad 23:12 Yeah.
Dr G 23:12 Which is fair enough. Smart move, lady. But this means that a friction has been set up where because Vinicius has been denied, in this very sort of materialistic Roman way that they’re being characterised, you start to develop this thing, “Well, if I can’t have it, I really want it.” And, and this colours, a whole bunch of things.
Dr Rad 23:32 Yeah.
Dr G 23:33 So this leads him to create a scenario through his contacts with Nero to have Lygia transferred out of that household. He finds out that she’s the hostage. Yeah, he’s like, what do we know about how hostage law works? And they’re like, well –
Dr Rad 23:49 Sneaky bastard!
Dr G 23:50 Yeah, if the emperor says so. I mean, the hostage can be transferred to a different household. Yeah. So Vinicius sets this up. So Lygia is first of all ripped out of the home that she has come to know
Dr Rad 24:02 Totally going to win her over. 100%.
Dr G 24:04 Definitely. Yeah. She gets gussied up at the Imperial Palace into some fancy dress.
Dr Rad 24:08 I think you mean, she gets slut-ified.
Dr G 24:12 They put her in a very nice gown.
Dr Rad 24:15 Yeah, I don’t think she’s too comfortable in it. It’s too revealing.
Dr G 24:18 Too revealing and maybe a little bit too shiny. Yeah. And they put her on display in front of the emperor at a sort of a dinner party situation where Vinicius is like, “you look ravishing”, and she’s like, “What? Why am I even here? Like, I’ve just been ripped from my family, like, whatever.” Yeah. And he’s like, “Oh, well, the good news is I did that.” And she’s like, “Excuse me?. And he’s like, “So your mine now by imperial decree. Did you know?” And she’s like, “Oh. My. God.”
Dr Rad 24:49 This guy can’t take a hint!
Dr G 24:52 She finds a way to escape essentially from that situation. Yeah. Nero is kind of oblivious and doing his own thing in the meantime, and I think this is an important subplot, Poppaea has spotted Vinicius and she’s like, “Well, he looks pretty hot.”
Dr Rad 25:07 Oh, yes.
Dr G 25:08 And her reputation for debauchery knows no bounds. So everybody’s kind of like they’re not really surprised when she tries to sort of she calls him over for a bit of a chat. Yeah. Nero doesn’t seem perplexed about this kind of thing at all, like Poppaea is being Poppaea. She’s an interesting one.
Dr Rad 25:24 This is just how women act. Yeah. May want me?
Dr G 25:28 My tiger, my cheetah. So she does a bit of a thing where she makes sure Vinicius knows that she’s interested in him. Yes. And he’s like, Okay, that’s cool. But my chick’s over there. Then she disappears. Lygia is sort of whisked away. And secreted away. And it turns out –
Dr Rad 25:47 This has something to do with Acte, doesn’t it?
Dr G 25:49 Yes.
Dr Rad 25:49 Yeah. Acte is actually a historical person. Yes. Yeah. Actually, as her [Lygia’s] adoptive parents, I should say. Yeah. Acte is mentioned in connection with Nero.
Dr G 26:01 Yeah. Acte is somebody who is written about in the source material as being one of these people that he has a relationship with. And she’s an actress. I think
Dr Rad 26:11 I actually thought she was a freed woman or a slave?
Dr G 26:15 Yeah, there’s something going on there. She has, she loves she has very low status, but they have a connection. And she is written about. And in the film, she sort of running the sort of the ladies of the household. She’s kind of like a high up sort of servant it would seem.
Dr Rad 26:31 Yeah. And but she’s obviously madly in love. With Nero.
Dr G 26:35 Still in love with Nero. Nero no longer seems to care. He’s moved on – Poppaea is where it’s at.
Dr Rad 26:40 Yeah, hashtag move on.
Dr G 26:43 And Acte is very implicated in the escape of Lygia. Yes. From the imperial palace. She shows Lygia the sign of the fish.
Yeah. But she’s not a Christian herself?
No, but she she’s sympathetic.
Dr Rad 26:56 Yeah. And again, this kind of ties in with what we know about early Christianity in that it does seem to been something that I think appeals to those lower down the social scale, rather than those at the top.
Dr G 27:09 And so we find out that the Christians are sort of getting together in the caves on the outskirts of the city. Maybe they’re catacombs, maybe they’re not, but they’re getting together underground. And it’s in this sort of moment. That Peter turns up.
Dr Rad 27:28 As in St. Peter, not Dr. G.
Dr G 27:30 I didn’t turn up. You can look for that cameo You shall not find it. St. Peter turns up and he gives a bit of a sermon. And at that sermon, Marcus Vinicius, by this point, has figured out that she’s been taken by the Christians and whisked away and he’s found a way to infiltrate into the cave and the meeting. So he gets gets to hear this sermon as well. He doesn’t really buy into the Christianity stuff, but he’s certainly hearing some different material –
Dr Rad 28:00 Yeah
Dr G 28:01
these days. Yeah. And that sort of leads into this situation where he’s trying to figure out how he can nab her. After Lygia is going home via the secret pathways, got a bodyguard, whether it’s all very hush hush. It’s all very hush hush, but it’s late at night and you think to yourself, I saw a lot of Christians in that cave. Surely the streets would be more crowded than this. But they’re not. Don’t ask those sorts of questions.
Dr Rad 28:27 She’s easily spotted.
Dr G 28:29 Ursus the, which lighting Latin for Bear, which is beautiful, because he’s a big, tall, strong guy. He’s like, “I can hear people following us.” And she’s like, “Whaaat?”, and he’s like, “No, seriously. You go. Yeah, you go ahead, and I’ll wait here.” And so he catches them unawares manages to kill the gladiator that Vinicius has hired to be his strong man for the night. He’s Greek friend who helped him infiltrate the cave runs away.
Dr Rad 28:58 Of course.
Dr G 28:58 And Vinicius gets sort of a smoosh on the head and Ursus takes him to where they’re hiding Lygia. So they’re staying in somebody else’s place. Yeah. And it’s pretty clear from the architecture that this is a bit of step down for her. Yeah, this is not the former general’s household
Dr Rad 29:16 But she’s cool with it because she’s Christian.
Dr G 29:17 She’s very Christian. She doesn’t mind. They’ve created a cross out of two sticks tied together. And that’s good enough for her. And this moment, this is kind of one of these really pivotal scenes in this film.
Dr Rad 29:29 Such a Florence Nightingale thing.
Dr G 29:32 So pivotal, because Vinicius is like, “Why did you not kill me?”
Dr Rad 29:37 Yes.
Dr G 29:37 And Ursus is like, “Well, it’s sin.” Even though he just killed a gladiator.
Dr Rad 29:41 Yeah. Yeah, him I’ll kill. You on the other hand…
Dr G 29:45 “That guy was trying to kill me. So that’s self defence.”
Dr Rad 29:47 Yeah.
Dr G 29:48 “Wheras you, you’re already out for the count.”
Dr Rad 29:50 Yeah.
Dr G 29:51 “So anyway, so it didn’t kill you.” And so there’s this moment of exchange. And then Vinicius is like, “Well, you know, all of this trouble. I – I don’t understand it. I’m just going to leave you to it. You’re not a hostage of me anymore, Lygia, I don’t care. I don’t want anything to do with it anymore.” And as soon as he rejects her, yeah, this is also opening up the pathway for her to be open and honest about how she feels because she’s no longer in a position of coercion. And immediately
Dr Rad 30:20 She’s secretly got the hots for him!
Dr G 30:22 She’s like, “but I’ve always loved you.” It is baffling.
Dr Rad 30:28 Yeah.
Dr G 30:29 And one can only assume it’s because he’s so good looking.
Dr Rad 30:32 Yeah, look, I mean, obviously, Lygia is played by Deborah Kerr, you know, she’s obviously big star at this point in time. And Vinicius is paid by Robert Taylor, also a big star of the time known to be quite attractive.
Dr G 30:48 So yeah, so apparently, he’s hot enough. And even though he’s silly. I mean, he’s really he’s really only revealed himself to be very silly up until now to her, you know, it’s like, you know, he’s tried to seduce her by being rude to her. And then he’s stolen her from her hostage family taht she likes living with.
Dr Rad 31:09 Yeah.
Dr G 31:10 And then he’s trying to follow a home from a Christian gathering, like he’s done nothing –
Dr Rad 31:15 But cause her pain
Dr G 31:15
to warrant any affection whatsoever.
Dr Rad 31:18 Yeah.
Dr G 31:19 And she’s like, “But I’ve always…” So I think she might be talking with her downstairs rather than her upstairs at this point in time.
Dr Rad 31:25 Well, isn’t that what women think with?
Dr G 31:27 Oh. Oh! And that’s exciting because Vinicius is then immediately back in. He’s like, “Let’s do this.” Yeah.
Dr Rad 31:37 “I was just kidding. I take back everything I just said.”
Dr G 31:39 Really? Really? You’re? Now you’re into it? Cool. And so you can see how the, sort of like the people who play The Game, those sort of like, yeah, those pointed like, sort of those dating gurus that are sort of like quite popular in the late 90s- early 2000s. Yeah, about all of that kind of stuff like Mystery and things like that. You can see how they might have watched a film like this and being like, negging her was the thing that worked.
Dr Rad 32:08 Yeah.
Dr G 32:08 Like, that’s just like, No, but you’re always a terrible person. And a guy wrote this script. It’s really, really clear.
Dr Rad 32:15 Yeah yeah.
Dr G 32:16 Because Lygia is just a little bit unbelievable in this moment, but they have a discussion about you know, how they’re going to stay together and how it’s gonna be amazing and she’s like, “well, if you stay with me, you’ve got to believe in my faith”, and Vinicius is like “I could just be with you – you can bring whatever gods you want. I don’t mind. You do you.”
Dr Rad 32:34 “The more the merrier, I’m Roman”
Dr G 32:35 Yeah, he’s like “I don’t mind, there’s heaps of Gods – there’s enough for all of us.”
Dr Rad 32:38 Yeah
Dr G 32:38 And she’s like, “that’s not good enough. No, you actually have to really try to buy in here.” And he’s like, “What is wrong with you?” He snaps the wooden cross.
Dr Rad 32:49 “I thought we were together! Now you’re saying there’s all these conditions?!”
Dr G 32:53 Yeah. And he gets really mad has a temper tantrum breaks the cross throws it on the ground storms off,
Dr Rad 32:59 Like these people haven’t suffered enough. For goodness sake, their cross is made of out sticks.
Dr G 33:04 So anyway, it’s a that’s kind of like this moment of crisis for these two.
Dr Rad 33:10 Absolutely.
Dr G 33:11 And then it kind of switches to this more Nero focused side of the story.
Dr Rad 33:17 Now we’re gonna set it alight, Nero and the fire of Rome.
Dr G 33:23 In the background, while this story has been playing out between Vinicius and Lygia in the background, we’ve been seeing Nero doing little quirky things here and there. And he’s starting to get a little bit inspired by this idea that he can’t be a true artist unless he experiences the things that he wants to talk about
Dr Rad 33:42 Which to be fair,
Dr G 33:44 Is method, very method.
Dr Rad 33:45 I was gonna say kind of what some people have actually said and still practice to this day.
Dr G 33:50 Yeah, method acting never out of fashion. Nero’s buying in big time.
Dr Rad 33:54 Yeah.
Dr G 33:54 There’s been –
Dr Rad 33:55 You know Stanislavski, tell me about it.
Dr G 33:59 For Nero, there’s this really interesting dynamic that is playing out across this whole film with his relationship with one of his advisors, Petronius, and Petronius is kind of like this – like hilarious, quasi-historical, like there is a Petronius in history.
Dr Rad 34:16 Yes. And he was a friend of Nero’s. Yeah. But in this version, he’s also the uncle of Marcus Vinicius.
Dr G 34:22 Yeah, they’ve taken some liberties and that’s okay. Yeah, but Petronius is this kind of really intelligent figure who is able to say the right thing at the right time, even when it doesn’t seem like it’s going to be the right thing to bring Nero around to a certain perspective.
Dr Rad 34:40 Yeah. And he’s definitely on damage control. Like his whole mission seems to be that I mean, very much looking at himself like
Dr G 34:48 and also looking out for his nephew, Vinicius, as well. Like Nero does have a moment where he spots Lygia and he’s like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I gave away too good a prize.
Dr Rad 34:57 Yes, exactly. Yeah. So Petronius is a all about damage control in the sense that he wants to have a pleasant life, he wants to look after his family. Standard. And then he also seems to be trying to make sure that Rome is not governed too stupidly. So he tries to always talk Nero around to something that would actually be not terrible.
Dr G 35:18 Yeah. But unfortunately for Petronius, he also seems to make maybe a slight error, where he kind of suggests that Nero needs to focus more on his art and things like that.
Dr Rad 35:27 Yeah.
Dr G 35:28 And Nero takes that up seriously, and runs with that. And the problem with that is that Nero then gets into his mind that he needs to see Rome burn in order to be able to create the Rome of his vision.
Dr Rad 35:45 Yeah. And also, you know, that idea of like, reciting a song about Troy, and, you know, writing about that, and that sort of thing, he needs to see it.
Dr G 35:54 Yeah. And it’s like, so Petronius is trying to get him to sort of exceed his own capacity as an artist being like, “you know, you know, you could go beyond Homer, you know, you could go beyond Virgil.” And Nero is kind of like, “how will I do it?” Petronius is like, “you’ve got to live it.” And Nero’s like, “well, if I have to live it, let’s burn the city, so I can live the emotion of it. And then I can build it from the ground up.” And he kind of has this relationship with the people where he needs them. But he kind of dislikes them at the same time. It’s kind of this sort of, they feed his sort of need for attention. But he’s also kind of annoyed with the fact that they’re always there and in the way.
Dr Rad 36:41 Yeah, definitely. And in this version, I think it’s probably clear, there is no doubt that Nero is responsible for lighting a fire. Not personally…
Dr G 36:50 No, but they make it Yeah, yeah. And this is something that is in contradistinction to the real complexities of the ancient evidence.
Dr Rad 36:58 Yeah, which we will, we will get into
Dr G 36:59 Yes so hold that thought. But the film definitely blames Nero. He’s the architect of the fire. He also has an architect with a new plan for Rome constructed for what will be built after the city has burned. So realistically, Nero is to blame here.
Dr Rad 37:13 Definitely. But he soon realised that I mean, I think only all his elite hangers-on they seem to be willing to tolerate Nero’s behaviour, I think up until this point, that this is something else. And so Nero is, you know, obviously feeling very unpopular from multiple angles, and he’s like, I need to do something about this, and therefore, he’s going to pin it on the Christians.
Dr G 37:40 Yes. So this idea in the film comes from Poppaea.
Dr Rad 37:44 Yes, that’s right.
Dr G 37:45 So we have this moment where Rome is on fire at that time, most of Nero’s court is in Antium. Vinicius hears that Rome is burning, realises that Lygia is still there. And even though they’ve had this thing where it’s like they’re clearly not together and it’s not working out. He’s had a chain, he’s realised that he has to go and save her –
Dr Rad 38:06 Of course.
Dr G 38:07
so he races back to Rome. And by doing so, gets himself into a bit of trouble actually, because apparently it was Nero’s Praetorians that set fire to – everybody knows that it was the Roman military that set the fire. Yeah. And people on the ground don’t want anything to do with a guy in uniform. Vinicius is always dressed up in these military garb because he cannot help himself.
Dr Rad 38:32 Breastplates all the way.
Dr G 38:33 Yeah, and he’s never thought to take them off. Even though he’s not leading an army right now.
Dr Rad 38:37 Apart from that first scene there’s been no reason to do so.
Dr G 38:41 There’s been no, no soldiers under his command. He’s just chilling out in Rome.
Dr Rad 38:44 It’s for good posture.
Dr G 38:45 Yeah, look, he loves it. Yeah. And he turns up, and people are sort of like trying to push him away. But he manages to save people by redirecting them into the sewage system. That’s clever. Yeah. And then he does spot Lygia. And so this is a moment of reunion and all of this sort of thing. Finally, sadly, it does not last, he does end up getting arrested as does Lygia as does Ursus as, as do a whole bunch of people
Dr Rad 39:14 who are Christian
Dr G 39:15 because they’re rounded up because they are considered to be Christian.
Dr Rad 39:18 Yeah.
Dr G 39:18 Because Vinicius is hanging out with Lygia that, that doesn’t help his cause at all. So he gets lumped in with them.
Dr Rad 39:18 Yeah.
Dr G 39:20 So Poppaea has had this amazing idea that the Christians will be blamed.
Dr Rad 39:24 Yeah
Dr G 39:28 For the fire. And then they will set up a whole bunch of games and put them on display in the arena.
Dr Rad 39:40 Sounds like a fabulous evening.
Dr G 39:42 It’s a good Roman time out. You know what I’m saying?
Dr Rad 39:44 Yeah, totally, man.
Dr G 39:47 So there were some very dramatic scenes with a lot of lions.
Dr Rad 39:51 Yeah, well, you know, you don’t want to do things half hearted.
Dr G 39:55 No, but like in terms of I’m just thinking from a like a film perspective, like they were a lot of lions showed on screen,
Dr Rad 40:02 Let’s be real, I don’t want to, I’ve never looked into it because I don’t want to know what may or may not have happened on that set. This is before, really strict regulations are in place about how animals, you know, be treated by the entertainment industry. And given that we’re still in an era where factory farming is somehow okay. I just don’t want to look back. It’s not going to be good news for anybody.
Dr G 40:25 It’s fair enough. But yes, I have some concerns about how many lions were involved. Yeah. Anyway, they bring out the Christians in kind of like groups, and part of what happens in this moment of the film is Nero becomes increasingly agitated because the Christians start singing as he’s, yeah, finding a moment of peace between like the moments where they’re getting slaughtered.
Dr Rad 40:48 Yeah.
Dr G 40:49 And this discomforts him greatly.
Dr Rad 40:51 He doesn’t understand it.
Dr G 40:52 Doesn’t understand it, doesn’t like it. And you know, other people are singing and he’s the singer, really.
Dr Rad 40:58 Yeah. So no, I don’t like living under your spotlight.
Dr G 41:09 I could see him standing up and doing that. Doing doing a sing back. A dramatic scene,
Dr Rad 41:15 Don’t tell me not to live, just sit and putter.
Dr G 41:20 This kind of thing is going he’s not very happy. He kind of wants to get them all out all at once and just get rid of them all. Yes. And Poppaea is like no, no, wait. And he also does an inspection of the bodies. At the end of the first day of the Christian sort of
Dr Rad 41:35 Always this creepy inspection of bodies in these films, I’ve realised.
Dr G 41:39 He wants to see what’s going on, because a lot of them have died with smiles on their faces.
Dr Rad 41:44 Yes.
Dr G 41:45 And this creeps him out.
Dr Rad 41:46 Yeah, well,
Dr G 41:46 And fair enough. I mean people don’t die with smiles on their faces usually.
Dr Rad 41:50 Not horribly in an arena, they don’t.
Dr G 41:52 No.
Dr Rad 41:53 Now he has also managed to round up St. Peter as being a part of
Dr G 41:57 Well, yeah. And so I was just about to get to that. Because parallel to this, yeah. we had Peter, giving a sermon in the caves underneath Rome. Yeah. But then he seems in a an assigned plot kind of element. He seems to be leaving Rome with a young boy,
Dr Rad 42:14 Busy guy.
Dr G 42:14 yeah, busy guy, young kid, and they’re on the road together, and they’re heading out of the city. And Peter is in this moment where he does the famous line, “Quo Vadis, Domine?” Because he doesn’t know where to go next. He doesn’t know what to do next. He’s seeking some guidance, and a light. The light of the sun shimmers through the trees. And it seems that the Lord speaks through the child tells him that he needs to go back to Rome. And that is how he has to save people, otherwise – either Jesus has to come back down, and then do another thing where he gets killed in Rome. And Peter’s like, oh, well, we can’t have that.
Dr Rad 42:58 No.
Dr G 42:58 And he also talks to the child being like, say it again. And kid’s like, “I didn’t say anything.”
Dr Rad 43:06 “So shut up, Mr.”
Dr G 43:07 So we know it’s a miracle. So they turn around and go back to Rome. And Peter appears in the arena, and gives us a speech again, and that’s when he’s arrested. So he speaks on behalf of the Christians. And the crowd is kind of like laughing at him. And he gets arrested and he gets trapped in with the Christians, which is great, because that means that Peter is in the same cell as Lygia and Vinicius. And those two finally get married.
Dr Rad 43:34 What better place to tie the knot? Again, it’s a bit of a trope of the genre. I mean, you know, you think about Diana, Marcellus in “The Robe” True, I don’t think they actually ended up getting married per se. But you know, they got together in their moment of absolute desperation.
Dr G 43:51 Everybody gets together when they’re locked up when you’re on death row.
Dr Rad 43:54 Yeah.
Dr G 43:55 Like this is my best option.
Dr Rad 43:56 Yeah.
Dr G 43:57 And so they are now married, and this makes Poppaea’s plan for them – because she said to Nero save those two, I’ve got something special,
Dr Rad 44:09 I’m sure
Dr G 44:10 And he’s like, “Oh, I love your –
Dr Rad 44:11 “That man is no longer my sexual toy.”
Dr G 44:14 She’s like, “Yeah, I’m feeling rejected by Vinicius. I’m definitely gonna kill him the hard way.” Yeah, she’s like, “Just you wait.” They bring out Lygia all dressed up in this beautiful sort of diaphanous purple robe actually, looking gorgeous. So much Vaseline. Tie her to a post. They bring out Ursus – don’t tie him to a post – and they bring Marcus Vinicius up to the imperial stage tied and chained to a metal post so he can’t get down into the arena.
Dr Rad 44:43 Yeah, he’s gonna have to watch her die.
Dr G 44:45 He’s gonna have to watch her die. And they send out a bull.
Dr Rad 44:49 Sounds nasty.
Dr G 44:50 It’s, it is nasty. I do wonder what happened to the bull. So I hope that the bull was okay.
Dr Rad 44:55 Again, I don’t want to know,
Dr G 44:55 I don’t really want to know either. Ursus takes down the bull. That’s the essence of it.
Dr Rad 45:02 Which is an amazing feat. And obviously not what Nero was expecting. Oh, yeah.
Dr G 45:06 And somebody had said to Nero, while they were like sort of watching on, “Look, if Ursus is able to take out the bull. I mean, you’ll have to let you have to let Lygia off.”
Dr Rad 45:17 Yeah. And then you know that that’s in keeping with what we know about it, how the arena works. If the crowd are wowed by a particular performance, they’ll probably ask the patron of the games to please spare the person. Yeah.
Dr G 45:28 And as predicted, the crowd is wild for Ursus’ success. And they’re like, they’re all – they’re all like, “yes, you have to let him off!”
Dr Rad 45:36 “Set him free! Her too! Set the, both free!”
Dr G 45:41 And Nero has his most dramatic moment of doing – almost as if he’s going to go one way and with the support of the crowd, and then goes the other way. And everybody turns and it’s chaos. And it’s at this moment, where the other subplot that I have not mentioned, really comes into play. Yeah, so in parallel to some of this stuff happening, before Vinicius is arrested, he and Petronius are colluding together with others to get Galba into power. And so I’m finding it I’m getting emotional. I’m getting emotional. So they’ve organised for Galba to come with some other legions and basically depose Nero with enough signatures Galba will accept the imperial leadership.
Dr Rad 46:37 And wouldn’t you know, they turn up right about now.
Dr G 46:40 Right at the moment, where Nero has decided that Ursus will have to die.
Dr Rad 46:45 Yeah.
Dr G 46:46 The army turns up.
Dr Rad 46:47 Yeah.
Dr G 46:48 In support of Galba. Are they’re like, “Galba is your new emperor!” Vinicius is down there yelling to everybody, “It’s over!”. And Nero has to run away. Poppaea runs away. Yeah, they go back. They retreat back to the palace. Yeah, that doesn’t go well for either of them.
Dr Rad 47:05 No, because Nero blames Poppaea for this whole mess.
Dr G 47:09 Yeah, he’s like, “You were the one who wanted to blame the Christians for the fire. And now look where we are.”
Dr Rad 47:13 Yeah.
Dr G 47:14 And then proceeds to strangle her, which she was not expecting.
Dr Rad 47:17 No, but is somewhat historically accurate in that Nero did murder Poppaea, but not for that reason, or in that way.
Dr G 47:25 Yes. And so Poppaea’s then dead, and he sort of retreats further into the palace. And then there is this shadow in his room. And he’s, like, clearly, clearly scared. Like, this. Is it? Somebody’s gonna kill me? And it turns out that it’s Acte.
Dr Rad 47:45 Loyal to the end. Yeah, yeah.
Dr G 47:48 She’s like, “I told you, I’d be here at the end.” And he’s like, “I didn’t believe you. I thought I told you to go away?”
Dr Rad 47:56 Yeah. But of course, she’s not there because she’s gonna make everything goes away. I mean, she is just a freed woman slash slave woman slash something.
Dr G 48:07 She gives him the opportunity to take his life with dignity, rather than being trampled down by
Dr Rad 48:15 The Roman way.
Dr G 48:16 Yes. You know, do something honorable with your life.
Dr Rad 48:19 Yeah.
Dr G 48:19 He’s not able to do it.
Dr Rad 48:21 No.
Dr G 48:22 He asks her to do that. And she does.
Dr Rad 48:25 Yeah.
Dr G 48:26 So that’s, I think devastating for her because she’s still in love with him.
Dr Rad 48:30 Yeah. But a fitting end for Nero. But of course, we do get a happy ending, because Vinicius and Lygia have managed to come out unscathed, basically, apart from maybe being traumatised, but
Dr G 48:43 And they seem to be heading out of Rome with Ursus and the kid.
Dr Rad 48:43 Yeah, they’re heading to live on Vinicius’ property in Sicily. The remainder of their lives undisturbed. In spite of their Christianity, I’m basing that on what the novel says.
Dr G 49:02 Nice.
Dr Rad 49:03 Yeah.
Dr G 49:04 And that’s the film.
Dr Rad 49:06 Wow. And we didn’t even mention that Petronius committed suicide in the midst of all that.
Dr G 49:10 Yeah. And has Seneca deliveries letter which is scathing to Nero.
Dr Rad 49:15 Yeah.
Dr G 49:15 I love the weeping vessel, “Bring the weeping vessel.” And Nero puts one tear from each eye into the jar and he’s like, “Seal this, to memorialise my feelings for Petronius.”
Dr Rad 49:15 And look this is the issue with Quo Vadis. It’s a it’s a massive novel. It’s a massive film every time you do it.
Thank you for listening to this special episode of The Partial Historians. We’d like to thank all of our patreons for their support and allowing us to make these additional episodes especially Nick, who requested a discussion of Quo Vadis. If you too would like early access to our bonus shows, please consider becoming a patreon. This has been part one of our coverage of Quo Vadis so stay tuned and Part Two. We’ll be with you shortly. Our sources and credits for the episode can be found on our website. And until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Tenacious Tempanius
May 11, 2023
Welcome to 423 BCE and your introduction to the one and only Sextus Tempanius! You may not know his name just yet, but we’re pretty sure you’ll be as impressed with him as we are. Suffice it to say, 423 BCE is one of the more interesting and dramatic years of the decade.
After a confusing tangent about the Samnites and Capua brought to us courtesy of Livy, we return to Rome and war with the Volscians. The Roman forces are led by the patrician, Gaius Sempronius Atratinus. However, Sempronius might be placing too much faith in the gods when it comes to war…
With fortune seemingly turning against the Romans, a plebeian hero steps into the spotlight. Sextus Tempanius brings the cavalry to the rescue of their forces. Join us to find out how the Tenacious Tempanius made the Romans swoon.
Episode 137 – The Tenacious Tempanius
A re-enactor dressed as a Roman cavalryman. The gear is not necessarily historically accurate for this period, but it gives the vibe! Image courtesy of Jacqueline Ross via Flickr.
My Kingdom for a Decurio!
Sextus Tempanius is described in some of our sources as a decurio. In this context, a decurio is a commander of a decuria of cavalry. A decuria is the Latin term for a division of ten. So a decurio is a low level commander in charge of the ten riders that make up his decuria. Although we can’t be precise about the exact scope of the Roman cavalry in this period of the early Republic, there is later thought to have been 30 lots of ten riders to a cavalry legion (300 riders). So for three hundred horsemen there were thirty internal leaders. The other important division was the grouping of 3 decuriones (3×10) horsemen together into a formation known as a turma. Depending on the battle situation, the Romans had the capacity to divide a legion down to collectives of 30 or 10 horsemen with their own command structure.
Things to Listen Out For
Several theories about how Capua received its’ name
Confusion over places starting with V
The laziest Etruscan resistance EVER
Standards left lying around
Roman cheerleading practice
Friends turning on each other like real douchebags
Q. Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 416, 414
Tribune of the Plebs
C. Iunius
Decurio
Sextus Tempanius
Our Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnass Roman Antiquities 12.6.5; Val. Max. 3.2.8.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.37-41.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Brill New Pauly entries for “Decurio” and “Verrugo”
Oakley, S. P. 2016. ‘Didactic Livy: Review of Livy’s Political Philosophy. Power and Personality in Early Rome by A. Vasaly’. The Classical Review 66:2, 431-433.
Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).
Smith, W. 1854. Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography “Verrugo”
Sound Effects
Thanks to the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Sound effects courtesy of Fesliyan Studios and Orange Free Sounds and BBC Sound Effects.
North face of the Mausoleum of Glanum, southern France, showing a cavalry battle, c. 40 BCE. This relief shows cavalry in action well after the period under discussion in this episode, but it does give you a sense of the movement and how Romans in the late Republic conceived of the cavalry. Source: Wikimedia Commons. Photographer: Cancre
Automated Transcript
Lightly edited for clarity!
Dr Rad 0:27 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome to another episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your host, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:36 And I am Dr. G. And we have been tracing Rome’s history from the founding of the city for years now. And we’re many years into Rome’s history as well. So that’s exciting news. We’re keeping pace with the events as they happen.
Dr Rad 0:52 We are I mean, the 420s are just like streaming by me. I can’t I feel like I can’t keep up with moving so quickly they are flying by I think this is a real indication of what happens when we lose some of our source material.
Dr G 1:05 Particularly Dionysius, who is, shall we say, more of a reverse somewhat of a gas bag? Indeed, I hope he does come back though. I’m looking forward to hearing from him again.
Dr Rad 1:16 It’s been too long.
Dr G 1:17 Look, I suspect we’ve only got fragments from here on down.
Dr Rad 1:22 I know but whenever he pops in to say hello, you know, gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Dr G 1:28 Prepare to be excited because he might be popping in with a fragment in this very episode.
Dr Rad 1:34 Well, you know, what, if any years I wouldn’t be surprised that it’s this year that we’re about to discuss, which is 423 BCE. But before we get into 423 Dr G., oo god, so rhymy. I think we need to pause and recap. And see what happened in 424 BCE.
Dr G 1:53 Well, I will really just be throwing back to you. Because 424. I had almost literally no evidence to the extent that I had to talk about what was Rome’s history of founding colonies in the very early Republic as far as we can discern.
Dr Rad 2:08 Look, fair enough, fair enough. Look 424 It wasn’t perhaps the most memorable of years we’ve had quite a few of these weird years in the 420s where it seems like kind of not a lot might be going on. But we did have a little bit of our old favourites, which was troublesome tribunes. There’s nothing that we love more than a troublesome tribune.
Dr G 2:31 It’s true. It’s true. We do like troublemakers of the plebeian persuasion.
Dr Rad 2:37 We definitely do. So we had some tribunes that were complaining about the lack of plebeians that were earning themselves magistracies, even though technically, with this option of military tribune with consular power, technically, we should be seeing plenty of plebeians in power.
Dr G 2:59 And yet somehow they are absent. The concerns are real.
Dr Rad 3:04 Yes, exactly. And the tribunes were so fed up with the lack of plebeians even running for office, that they were threatening to say, You know what, let’s just get rid of this whole idea altogether. And we’ll just have the patricians forever, and that would maybe make you happy. Wouldn’t it?
Dr G 3:21 It’s such a typical patrician solution to a problem.
Dr Rad 3:25 No, that was the tribune.
Dr G 3:26 Oh no!
Dr Rad 3:27 Yeah, they were like, you wait, we’re just so like, it’s it’s actually worse that we have the option. And yet nobody’s doing it. Because then that seems to imply that actually, we’re useless. But he is worthy? Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 3:41 Why are we even here, guys, if you’re not going to make use of us?
Dr Rad 3:45 Precisely. And so they’re proposing that and with finally, finally, they have got through to the plebeians. And we actually have some opinions allegedly running for office, and campaigning on the kinds of measures that we would normally see, plebeians run with so things like, I think that they’re campaigning on some sort of land allocation policy, you know, that maybe we’re going to share it out a bit more fairly than we have in the past. That there’s also going top be a tax placed on the landowners, you know, classic, lower class kind of stuff.
Dr G 4:18 You know, we should tax the people that have money, not the people who don’t have money.
Dr Rad 4:23 Yes, although, once again, I have to stop myself, Dr. G, I’m falling into that old pattern. We have to remember that some of the plebeians are very wealthy. It’s just that they don’t have a stranglehold on power, like the patricians seem to have.
Dr G 4:38 This is true. It does turn out that it’s more about who you were born to, rather than how much wealth you possess.
Dr Rad 4:47 Exactly. And that opens up all sorts of doors like priesthoods and consulships and whatnot.
Dr G 4:53 Alright, so that’s 424 BCE,
Dr Rad 4:57 That is 424.
Dr G 4:57 Okay, so let’s let’s hit the ground running With 423 BCE.
Dr Rad 5:13 All right for 423 BCE, Dr. G. And since I know that Dionysius is still breaking your heart with his broken pieces of source material, I’m going to let you tell me who the magistrates are for this year.
Dr G 5:25 Oh, well, thank you. There is a little bit of interest when it comes to who we’ve got in our sort of the players for this year. So we’ve got a couple of consuls, which are a nice change of affairs really, we haven’t
Dr Rad 5:40 Well, that’s sad to me though because it suggests that all that stuff I just talked about didn’t come to pass.
Dr G 5:47 Those people put themselves up for election and did not get voted in.
Dr Rad 5:51 This is the thing. I get this is where our source material makes no sense. How would they be running for office? If it’s not military tribunes with consular power? Yeah, can’t run for the consulship. So
Dr G 6:01 Precisely. I mean, we do have real issues with the source material. There is no doubt about it.
Dr Rad 6:07 Yeah, we really do.
Dr G 6:08 Yeah, the plebeians not being allowed at this stage as far as we’re aware to run for the consulship. So maybe the elections got a little bit messy, and maybe they changed their minds about what kind of elections they were having, you know, I’m just trying to paper over what are our gaping holes of logic and no material?
Dr Rad 6:26 Maybe, maybe there’s no such thing as the consulship at this point in time.
Dr G 6:32 Horror. Shock.
Dr Rad 6:34 Blasphemy. Anyway, I’ll skate over that.
Dr G 6:37 Well, okay. So there are two men who are more in charge than anybody else. One of them is Gaius Sempronius Atratinus
Dr Rad 6:46 Hmmm, welll I recognise these names.
Dr G 6:50 Well, Atratinus is an interesting name, because that raises the question about whether patrician and plebeian as it happens, because Atratinus, in the later centuries of the Republic is an exclusively plebeian name but, in this early period, we’re pretty sure that this is a patrician name only.
Dr Rad 7:15 Dashed my hopes Dr G., how will I carry on for the rest of the episode?
Dr G 7:19 Well, I hope you can pick yourself up and continue on but if you can’t, I’ll just keep going through the roll call sheet. That will be the whole episode. Please save yourself. So Atratinus definitely has plebeian flavour about it, which might explain some of the narrative choices of our analysts historians for the previous year, we like this guy, plebeian. And the scholarship seems to fall down on the side of probably not at this stage. But later on, we’ll get the reemergence of this name under a plebeian gens. So that will happen. So our second console is Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.
Dr Rad 8:10 Yeah
Dr G 8:11 And so this family has come up quite a bit. So one of the fabulous Fabii is back. And we’ve seen quite a lot of the Vibulanii as well. But this guy doesn’t appear to have held any positions as yet. So this seems to be his first foray into the consulship. So that’s exciting news for him.
Dr Rad 8:30 It is indeed.
Dr G 8:31 Go Quintus! We also have a named attribute of the plebs, a guy called Gaius Iunius. Who I suspect you might have more to say about, and we also have a prefect. So a military position, a guy called Sextus Tempanius.
Dr Rad 8:54 Yes, I have much to say about this young man. Very, I’m very excited to talk about him. But I love the fact that he’s named as a prefect because it gives me images of him in a very sharp navy blazer with little badges on it. Maybe that’s just because I’m a school teacher.
Dr G 9:11 He also is apparently a decurio, more specifically of the cavalry under Sempronius. So this roll call sheet hints to me that there is some military action that happens in 423 BCE. But realistically, all I’ve got are a couple of fragments, one from Dionysius of Halicarnassus – praise be – a little snippet from Valerius Maximus. And then I’m basing all the rest of my knowledge from a little bit of extra scholarship research that I’ve done.
Dr Rad 9:45 Well, allow me allow me to step in because this is a banner year for Livy. I mean, we haven’t had this much detail and I don’t even know how long honestly, who knew that 423 room was the place to be.
Dr G 9:59 I’m excited now. Livy does tell a good story. So I’m going to strap myself in.
Dr Rad 10:03 He does so you can jump in with your fragments when appropriate, but not a moment earlier.
Dr G 10:09 Noted.
Dr Rad 10:11 All right. So, as you’ve noted, I have the same consuls that you do. So this is good. So we start off our story with an Etruscan city, Dr. G. In fact, one I don’t really recall us talking much about in its original form, and that is Volturnum.
Dr G 10:27 Ah, okay. So in contrast to you already, I have reference to a Volscian city called Verrugo.
Dr Rad 10:36 Oh, okay.
Dr G 10:37 And this, they may be the same place.
Dr Rad 10:39 Well, okay, so Volturnum actually is now Capua. When I say now, I mean, obviously in the Roman sense later on,
Dr G 10:52 Capua is in Campania, isn’t?
Dr Rad 10:55 It is, yes.
Dr G 10:57 Okay, that’s much further south than the hypothetical Verrugo that I have reference to, which is to the south east of Rome, but past the Frascati sort of region. So you’ve got to go beyond the hills. There’s those volcanic hills to the southeast of Rome, and you go a little bit further past them. Keep going southeast, and then you hit Verrugo, which today, we think, is in the location of modern Colle Ferro, and Sacco. But it’s not as far as Capua.
Dr Rad 11:32 I’m so glad that you have travelled so extensively in Italy because I’m just sitting here going I know nothing about geography.
Dr G 11:40 Look, I wish
Dr Rad 11:40 Just as well I’m a history teacher!
Dr G 11:44 Maps, schmaps, maps,
Dr Rad 11:45 Maps, schmaps, colouring pencils, don’t need them. Anyway, no offence for any geography teachers out there actually love colouring pencils. So apparently, this now later in time, like Livy’s time, is Capua. And the reason why Livy kicks off with this account is because this city is captured by the Samnites, Dr G.
Dr G 12:08 Hmm, all right, I’ll hold on to that detail.
Dr Rad 12:11 Indeed. Now Livy goes on a bit of a tangent explaining how this city gained the name of Capua and he has several theories. Typical Livy so the first is that it’s from “cappis”. Oh, sounds bad. Oh, cat
Dr G 12:28 Is it from cat piss because that’s a bit-
Dr Rad 12:30 No no, I’m going to try that again. Cap piece. Still sounds bad. From its champagne country, and that’s not champagne, like the drink. But basically,
Dr G 12:42 Just sparkling cat-piss
Dr Rad 12:43 It’s sounding more and more appetising every time. I really should have tried saying this out loud before I tried to explain it to you. But apparently, what Livy is trying to get at here is some sort of word which means like open country or some sort of plain or battlefield, something like that, okay,
Dr G 12:54 I suspect then we might be talking about very different places then. Because Verrugo comes through in the Latin from “verruca” which, which is not what you might suspect that is a wart on the side. But like it’s yeah, like, almost exactly the same. But from this idea of a “locus editus asperque”, which is a “high-lying rough place”. So this kind of like mountainous rocky outcrop. So it almost sounds like the very opposite.
Dr Rad 13:41 Yeah, could not be more different. Because I also have other people saying, No, Livy is wrong. It actually probably stems from the word for orchid or garden.
Dr G 13:51 Oh, well, that’s much nicer than cat piss, isn’t it?
Dr Rad 13:54 It does sound as if I mean, like, I’m really misrepresenting this place, whatever it is. But I also have other scholarship, which suggests that it might come from “acapitae”, and maybe once this place was the head of the Etruscan League. Oh really? Like “capite” like head
Dr G 14:12 Like kaput?
Dr Rad 14:13 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Wow. But also it is possible that it could come from this idea of like a plain or something like that. It could also be something that arose just because this is what the people who live there were called and then you know, the place name came from the people that lived there. Those people have hands and they live on flat land.
Dr G 14:37 It’s a no brainer, really what we should call this place.
Dr Rad 14:40 Yeah, exactly. Like it. Or third possibility may be a true version or Etruscan origin from a family the gens Capia.
Dr G 14:52 Oh, fancy.
Dr Rad 14:53 Yeah. So really, what I’m reading here in the scholarship and Livy is that we have no freaking idea why this place is ended. It kept lots of theories, no real evidence, indeed, but to return to the Samnites and their issue with this place. So I find this the most hilarious military story I’ve ever heard so far that saying something because we talk about the military a lot. The Etruscans apparently, are just so exhausted. They let the Samnites come in.
Dr G 15:23 Or you just imagined some Etruscans were just laying down in a faint being like, I can’t go on, take the city, if you must, I’m just gonna stay right here.
Dr Rad 15:32 That’s basically what they do. They’re like, what? The Samnites at our gates, for goodness sakes, just let them come in and take the place because quite frankly, I don’t have any fight left in.
Dr G 15:42 You know what, I can’t be bothered defending this place, and I won’t.
Dr Rad 15:46 And so they seem to strike a deal and that they’re like, Look, if we don’t put up any resistance, can we just share the city and the fields equally? And a semi so like, yeah, I guess that’s sounds pretty good. We don’t have to stab anyone.
Dr G 16:01 Let’s not fight about it. Let’s just split it in half.
Dr Rad 16:04 Yeah. But Dr. G. You know, when something sounds too good to be true. Often is, yeah. So the Samnites move in, they start sharing the city in the fields with the Etruscans. But they’re really just playing the waiting game, Dr. G. Because one day when the Etruscans are suffering from the after effects of a holiday, read, eaten too much and have a massive hangover. The Samnites wake up in the middle of the night, and kill them all. Oh, god. Yeah, it sounds very Trojan War, doesn’t it?
Dr G 16:41 Well, yes. I mean, the Etruscans did just let them in, didn’t they?
Dr Rad 16:44 Well, yeah, they didn’t have to pretend with the whole horse thing. But nonetheless, like the whole waiting till everybody’s asleep, and then killing everybody.
Dr G 16:51 This might explain the Trojan name theory as well.
Dr Rad 16:54 Potentially, potentially. I mean, we are. We all know that the Etruscans of the Romans are related to the Trojans, right? That’s what they like to tell us. That’s what they like to tell us. Now the consuls that we’ve just been talking about. They happen to take up their office just after this happened. And I’m given the very specific date of the 13th of December.
Dr G 17:15 Oh, goodness. Okay. Happy birthday, everybody.
Dr Rad 17:18 Indeed yeah. So anyway, so they’ve taken up their office, the Romans receive intelligence from their own representatives, because they have spies everywhere. That the Volscians and now planning to invade them. Oh, yeah. Shocking. So I know. It’s military action just everywhere. All right.
Dr G 17:37 So and this is unconnected with the whole Samnites taking over the other spot? situation? Is it or is this interconnected?
Dr Rad 17:44 I don’t think it’s particularly connected. I think it’s more just, you know, something horrible. That happens. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so the Latins and Hernicians arrive and tell the Romans, “Hey, have you heard the Volscians are planning to invade?” And the Romans are saying, “yes, as a matter of fact, we already knew that thanks to our spies, but good work, everybody. Glad to see we’re on the ball.” But the Latins and Hernicians mostly wanted to speak to the Romans because they were spooked. The Volscians just seemed far too energetic. And they were like, This is worrying.
Dr G 18:21 They’re moving around a lot. And it has me quite concerned.
Dr Rad 18:24 Yeah, it’s it is like they’re just carrying out the levy. You know, managers like you know, what we need to get into things we need to make sure that we have courage to deal with this threat, it seems extremely worrying that they’re levying so much.
Dr G 18:41 Yeah, I mean, obviously, if they’re leving, they’re about to send them against somebody.
Dr Rad 18:45 So Gaius Sempronius one of our consuls, he comes into the play here 100% has faith that fortune will see him through this mess, because fortunes never faded for anyone and fortune loves the Romans. He of course had led Rome to victory before on the battlefield. So he takes a fairly careless approach to organising the Romans. He’s like Yeah, yeah, I get your the Volscians are a problem. It looks like we’re facing issues. But don’t you worry guys. This, I so got this. I got this so much. I don’t even really need to care about how things are being organised.
Dr G 19:25 Trust me, the gods are on my side.
Dr Rad 19:28 Exactly. Which means that Sempronius ends up entering battle without really thinking through his battle plan.
Dr G 19:39 Yeah, who needs a plan?
Dr Rad 19:41 Who needs a plan? I mean, I know I like to wing things every now and then but generally not when people’s lives are on the line.
Dr G 19:47 Well, you and Sempronius are clearly not going to get along.
Dr Rad 19:51 Exactly. Now. The big issue I think, with his lack of battle plan is that he has not placed his cavalry in a strategic position. As Livy says, “his lines were not strengthened with reserves”.
Dr G 20:07 Oh, goodness, okay. This is problematic. I mean the cavalry is both a very powerful element of any military outfit at this time period. But it is also a heightened risk in some senses like the ways in which a cavalry is vulnerable is useful to know. And maybe to plan for.
Dr Rad 20:30 I don’t know if you heard me Dr. G. But fortune is on our side. So just like chill out.
Dr G 20:37 Praise be, Fortuna, and all your good works. I look forward to you winning the battle for me.
Dr Rad 20:43 Yeah, and now here’s my other favourite detail. Apparently they’re so disorganised that the Roman battle cries weren’t even any good.
Dr G 20:51 Oh what? They didn’t organise their songs properly.
Dr Rad 20:54 I know they’re all over the shop, Dr. G. 1234. We know what is freaking battle? Wait, that doesn’t rhyme what’s going on?
Dr G 21:07 Are we to extrapolate from this, that every time Rome has gone to war so far, they’ve come up with new battle songs?
Dr Rad 21:16 I think we are and I think it means that I mean, okay. As a school teacher, I’m going to tell you a little story. Whenever we have swimming carnivals, and athletic carnivals, at most schools I’ve been at there is usually time allocated at some point for the students in their respective houses to practice their chanting. Now, if schools and school children do this, I’m starting to picture the Romans getting together and be like, Alright, guys, this is getting really serious. Some of us won’t be coming home. It’s time to practice our battle cry. What are we going to chat this time, guys.
Dr G 21:51 But I feel like that it would be more akin to perhaps, not disparaging the chanting athletics carnivals, and swimming, carnivals, and so forth. That is a real and genuine thing. But in addition to that, there’s usually some tried and true chants that have a historical kind of impetus behind them that are part of the way in which you’re brought into your particular sporting house, or your sporting team. I’m thinking particularly about football and the way that the fandom has various songs that they already know and have learned that are for their team. So they’ve got one for when they’re going really well. They’ve got one for when they want to sort of pep up the players. They’ve got one for when they’re losing, but they want to disparage the opposition. And so the idea that they’re coming up with new chants all the time for every single battle seems just it’s blowing my mind a little bit because I feel like surely there would be some of the old classics mixed in.
Dr Rad 22:51 I’m sure. I’m sure there are but it seems that no matter what they’re doing you Oh, doesn’t matter. It isn’t any good.
Dr G 22:58 It is organised and we can thank Sempronius for that.
Dr Rad 23:02 Yeah, they’re like you g l why you ain’t got no excuse. You ugly? Yeah, yeah. You ugly? Yeah, yeah.
Dr G 23:13 Oh, those Romans.
Dr Rad 23:14 Yeah. Anyway, so the Volscians are pretty confident after they hear these pathetic efforts at battle cries from the Romans. They’re like, Oh, my God, they haven’t rehearsed guys, we’ve got this in the bag. Now, the Romans don’t really know what to do. I think they’re feeling it. They know they’re unprepared. So they’re looking around for a hero. Because they’re very timid. When they go into battle, they just don’t really know what’s happening. It seems like they haven’t got you know, adequate leadership. And very quickly, things turn against them, because their heart’s just not in it. They don’t have confidence. I mean, this is just a classic lesson. I mean, the Romans are some of the most arrogant, confident people I’ve ever met. And yet, even they are proving that if you don’t have your head in the right place, and you’re not projecting confidence, people out there are going to eat you alive, they will know, they will know. So the frontline ends up retreating, and they even leave their standards behind.
Dr G 24:09 Okay, this is shocking news. I mean, I’m so sad. I have no source material for this year now. Losing the standards. That is, that is the worst thing that can happen basically.
Dr Rad 24:21 I know and I thought might be good to remind our listeners and you’re the perfect person to do it. Why the standards are so important.
Dr G 24:27 Well, the standards, my friends, my dear listeners, are so important because they represent almost like the energy of the entire group that works under that standard, like it’s got a vested totemic symbolism about it. So it’s the sort of thing that you can sort of galvanise people around. You can use it to indicate where people are on the battlefield. Obviously, it’s quite visual and striking. But the really significant thing is the sense in which there’s a characteristic about it that’s really imbued with the character of the men who fight under that standard. So, I would imagine that things like war cries and things like that may actually incorporate references to their own standards and so forth and so on in order to emphasise that relationship. So, there is a quasi-religious divine element to the standards. And so when they are lost, there is a sense in which the whole character of that particular unit is broken down and cannot be reunified until they get that standard back.
Dr Rad 25:34 Now, this sounds obviously terrible, and it sounds like the Volscians are just you know, shoo in for victory, but don’t write the Romans off just yet, Dr. G. While the Volscians are definitely prevailing at this point in time, the Romans aren’t in like a full on retreat. They just like confused and dropping back and just trying to stay alive at this point in time. The Volscians, of course, are pursuing the advantage and they’re really pushing on. But Livy makes sure to emphasise that the rumours are more being killed and running away, which makes me certain that they were in fact running away.
Dr G 26:11 I was gonna say, I mean, that’s when you get killed the most is when you’re running away. Yeah, you’ve exposed your backside to the enemy.
Dr Rad 26:19 I know. But I don’t feel like Livy has it in him to actually record the Romans acting like that. He’s like, Oh, yeah, they’re being totally cut down. But they’re not running away.
Dr G 26:28 Oh, Livy always trying to save Rome’s reputation.
Dr Rad 26:31 I know that’s purely my own instinct there. Nobody’s told me that. Anyway, so more and more Romans are falling back because the battle is really falling apart for them. What is our consul Sempronius doing about it. Sweet F A, Dr. G. He’s trying really hard to inspire them. And he’s getting angry with them being like, turn around for goodness sakes, my God get back at their fortunes on our side, you idiot. But his anger is doing nothing. And I’m going to directly quote my translation of Livy cuz I really liked this sentence, “There was no virtue either in his authority, or in his dignity”.
Dr G 27:09 Oh, snap.
Dr Rad 27:12 I know. I know. That’s a burden on so many levels.
Dr G 27:17 Oh, I don’t know if Sempronius coming back from this to be honest.
Dr Rad 27:21 Just you wait, Dr. G. All right. So the Romans were at that point finally, where they were about to commit the worst sin possible and all turn their backs on the enemy, thus exposing them to being wounded or killed in the back as they run away. The shame, the shame,
Dr G 27:40 There’s nothing nothing less dignifying in terms of virtus for a Roman to get wounded on the back.
Dr Rad 27:46 But then, Dr. G, our hero comes into the story. A cavalry decurion name Sextus Tempanius saves the day with his amazing courage. Now a little background on what a decurion is. So as far as I could figure out at decurion is in command of 10 men. So it’s not just a clever name. And he seems to be in a similar position to a centurion. But just for the cavalry. Not the infantry, which is what the centurion is usually in charge of.
Dr G 28:21 All right, sounds fancy. So he’s in charge of 10 horsemen, essentially.
Dr Rad 28:25 Yeah, so apparently, there would be three two decurions in a squadron, which is called a terma. And there are 10 terma in three centuries of horse, which would go along with a legion. Thank you very much notes in my Loeb translation.
Dr G 28:41 So a terma would have 30 cavalry, plus the three decurio.
Dr Rad 28:49 Yeah
Dr G 28:49 And then how many is that in the century?
Dr Rad 28:52 Then there are 10 termae in three centuries, which is far too much math for me to do publicly because that means dividing things up.
Dr G 29:00 No, no, that’s 30 by 10. So there’s 300.
Dr Rad 29:03 Right, excellent. Let’s stick with that.
Dr G 29:06 It’s a lot of horses. I’m just trying to visualise like how many horses here? I really did. That’s quite a lot of horses.
Dr Rad 29:13 It is but that’s that’s saying that you have three centuries. I don’t know how many people we have here right now.
Dr G 29:17 That’s true.
Dr Rad 29:18 Anywho the other weird little detail I’m going to throw in there is that the name Tempanius is very unusual. It seems that nobody else has it.
Dr G 29:28 Hmm. Well, that is not a vote of confidence in favour of this story being true then.
Dr Rad 29:35 Pish posh, Dr G, this guy is about to be a plebeian hero.
Dr G 29:39 Okay, I might bring in Dionysius’ fragment here.
Dr Rad 29:44 Okay do it.
Dr G 29:45 Not because I think it fits where we’re at in the narrative, because it’s not at all clear to me from what you’ve told me where this might fit, but I’ll just give it to you and you might have some ideas about where it goes.
Dr Rad 29:58 Okay
Dr G 29:58 So he’s talking sbout Sempronius and Sempronius has learned that the enemy is coming up in the rear.
Dr Rad 30:06 Uh huh.
Dr G 30:07 And he’s despaired of being able to turn back with the men, right? And he’s also concerned about being surrounded by the enemy on all sides.
Dr Rad 30:18 Interesting, okay.
Dr G 30:19 And so there is a sense that Sempronius at this point, decides to see if they can take the high ground, right? Because like if we’re going to have to defend ourselves, and we’re going to get surrounded, we need to get to the top of that little hill over there as fast as we can.
Dr Rad 30:38 Okay, I see where your story fits in. Continue.
Dr G 30:41 That is my entire fragment.
Dr Rad 30:42 Oh, okay. All right. All right. Well, let me let me I’ll show you where your story fits in. Here we go. So Sextus Tempanius shouts to the cavalry, that anybody who wants to save or needs to get down off his horse right now. Now the men obey him as though he was the consul which of course he is not. He’s just a humble decurion and he tells them that they are the ones that can save everything now all they have to do is follow him into battle. And he cries out show Romans and Volscians that when you are mounted, no cavalry are your equals, nor any infantry when you fight on foot. And then men are like, amazing. I love this. Let’s do it.
Dr G 31:26 But it also feels like it doesn’t really make a lot of sense, does it? I mean, he’s just said to the cavalry, dismount and fight as if your infantry.
Dr Rad 31:34 Yeah, so he’s saying, let’s show everyone that we’re amazing when we’re cavalry. And we’re also amazing when we’re infantry.
Dr G 31:40 They’ve been losing. Well, they’ve been cavalry.
Dr Rad 31:42 No, no, no, they haven’t been in the right spot. Yeah, you don’t understand, they’ve been undermined by Sempronius.
Dr G 31:49 I see. My visualisation of this battle is all over the shop.
Dr Rad 31:54 Well, I think that that makes everyone involved because it is obviously a chaotic battle.
Dr G 31:58 Everybody’s yeah, there’s a lot of chaos.
Dr Rad 32:00 So under Sextus Tempanius, he manages to lead them wherever the hell he wants on the battlefield, because they are, they’re almost in like berserker mode Dr. G, to use a problematic term from the Vikings for no apparent reason. And they make their way to the most desperate part of the battle, the Romans would not have been able to win without these guys on the battlefield. This is clear. Now the Volscian general sees them in action, and he’s like, “Whoa, those guys cannot be stopped”. So he ordered his troops to allow the superstar Romans to gain ground with this clever strategy of allowing them to gain so much ground that they could be cut off from everyone else. And this is where I think your story is going to start to come, it works. They are cut off, and they are unable to break through. The remainder of the Roman army could not and would not, however, allow them to be lost, they are determined to come to their aid and push through. Now the Volscians are facing attack from two sides. Tempanius and his little band of followers, they managed to establish themselves on a mound and they sort of position themselves in a circle and they defend themselves there. This battle is going on for ever so long that it actually becomes night.
Dr G 33:30 Oh, goodness. Okay, I know this, this actually taps into the other single piece of evidence that I have, which is from Valerius Maximus.
Dr Rad 33:39 So the consuls are determined to keep fighting as long as it was possible because right now, the battle does not have a clear outcome. It is just the most confusing battle I think we’ve ever talked about.
Dr G 33:52 And now that it’s nighttime, it’s only going to get more confusing, I would suspect.
Dr Rad 33:56 Yeah. So each side in their camps are terrified because they don’t really know what is happening, who’s one who’s lost what’s happening. So they both decided to abandon their wounded and some of their baggage which would be in their camps, so that they can retreat to the nearest hills. Okay. And this is where I think there’s there’s some, you know, tie in with what you were saying about the hill thing. But the mound with Tempanius and his men, that continues to be attacked until after midnight.
Dr G 34:26 Oh, goodness.
Dr Rad 34:28 I know this is a crazy long battle. Now when Tempanius hears that the Roman camp had been abandoned. I don’t know how he heard that. Maybe someone shouted it out really loudly because this is maybe a smaller scale battle than it sounds. It obviously makes it sound like the Romans have been defeated and they’ve just fled. You know, they’ve panicked and they’ve just gone. Tempanius is really worried about an ambush taking place at this point in time. So he takes a few men to check out the situation. I don’t know how he manages to do this, but apparently he manages to
Dr G 35:02 It’s dark. I don’t know.
Dr Rad 35:05 I guess so. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they’re in a circle and they’re defending the amount so maybe it’s not like full on like, ah, Hollywood fighting all this time.
Dr G 35:16 People have got to be tired. It’s more like somebody else being like, Oh,
Dr Rad 35:23 Yeah. Now Tempanius stops along the way to chat to some wounded Volscians as you do. And he realises that their camp is also been deserted.
Dr G 35:32 Wait a minute.
Dr Rad 35:34 Yeah. So he calls out to the rest of his men. And he’s like, let’s go to the Roman camp. Okay, so they all go to the Roman camp. And everything’s very abandoned, and it’s looking very sad. However, Tempanius does not want the Volscians to find out about the sad state of the Roman camp, because of course, they would naturally attack. So Tempanius took as many wounded as he could, and leaves for Rome – he has no idea where Sempronius, the consul, has actually retreated to or gone. Meanwhile, the people back in Rome have heard that the battle is not going very well. And people are already mourning the losses because they kind of presume that a lot of people are dead, particularly people in the cavalry. They think it’s really bad news. Now, other consul, Fabius has obviously been keeping charge of the city, and he’s keeping watch at the gates and he’s trying to reassure the Romans who are panicking, but then he sees cavalry off in a distance and he’s like, Oh, this can’t be good. But as the cavalry get closer, guess who it is?
Dr G 36:45 Is it -?
Dr Rad 36:46 It’s Tempanius!
Dr G 36:47 I was gonna say I’m like it’s either Sempronius or Tempanius.
Dr Rad 36:50 Yeah, it’s Tempanius. And everyone’s like – whoo – everyone’s starts partying. The women don’t even care about their appearance. They just in the streets, throwing themselves into the arms of their men like, “Hurray, you’re not dead after all – Yay!”.
Dr G 37:07 Okay.
Dr Rad 37:07 Yeah, I think I should pause and ask you about your piece of evidence from Valerius Maximus.
Dr G 37:11 Yeah, like, I’ll give you the piece of evidence. It’s there’s not a lot and it is confusing, because Okay. One, first of all, Tempanius is never mentioned at all. So right, I have no idea who this guy is. But we have a reference to a badge of glory that must be rendered to Rome’s young warriors. So okay, the consul Gaius Sempronius Atratinus is unsuccessful in battling with the Volsci at this place called Verrugo.
Dr Rad 37:46 Right.
Dr G 37:47 This may be the place where your battle is at with a different name in a different place. Leave that detail aside for now.
Dr Rad 37:54 I think I’ve mentioned the name to be fair.
Dr G 37:57 And Valerius Maximus emphasises that to save the Roman line, which was already yielding from a complete rout, these young warriors dismounted from their horses, arranged themselves in centuries, and dashed into the enemy host. So we’ve got that nice parallel with Livy’s account. And they get down from their horses and like we’re going to do it infantry style. We do what we must.
Dr Rad 38:22 Yes, absolutely.
Dr G 38:24 Dividing themselves up, they occupy an adjoining hill, and they draw themselves they draw to them the full Volscian force.
Dr Rad 38:34 Right.
Dr G 38:35 Thus allowing the other Roman legions that are in disarray, some respite to recover that morale, and presumably
Dr Rad 38:42 I think that all matches up, yup.
Dr G 38:43 Presumably, that’s where Sempronius is.
Dr Rad 38:45 Yes.
Dr G 38:46 And they, they’re not sure how this all turns out in the end, ultimately, though, so it gets to nighttime. The battle technically ends with nightfall because people can’t see enough to keep doing battle. And everybody withdraws. But nobody’s really sure who’s won. Awkward. Yeah. So from this kind of evidence, in a way, this kind of makes a little bit more sense than Livy. I would say, not. Well,
Dr Rad 39:20 I feel like it’s kind of the same story, though.
Dr G 39:23 Well, it’s tricky, because like we’ve had other instances in the past where the battle has gone all day, but it tends to finish at night because it’s hard to keep going.
Dr Rad 39:33 Oh, yeah, the nighttime stuff. The nighttime stuff is totally made up.
Dr G 39:37 So what Valerius Maximus is saying here is that when night does come, actually the enemies split apart, and they go back to their respective camps, essentially, but nobody’s sure of the outcome of the battle yet, so there’s been no clear winner. And this happens quite frequently in ancient warfare as well with the Romans. We’ve heard stories of this before where they return the next day and they have another battle so that sort of thing is where Valerius Maximus is heading with his piece of evidence. But he doesn’t go. He doesn’t mention anybody by name, except for Sempronius. But he does talk about this group of young warriors who really do save what was going to be a disaster for the legions that were already on the ground.
Dr Rad 40:23 Okay, cool. Yeah. So I think I agree, I think we’ve got that matchup in terms of the young warriors who are cavalry, who make themselves into infantry, draw attention to themselves from the Volscians and allow the rest of the Romans to get themselves in order and do what they need to do. I definitely agree that it seems highly unlikely that they are fighting all day and then all night. That doesn’t seem right. But anyway, so back in room when Tempanius and the cavalry show up, their tributes have already clocked off for the day. Because they are busying themselves with putting on trial, Marcus Postumius and Titus Quinctius, who are being charged for their lack of success at Veii. Now, this is a throwback to the year 426.
Dr G 41:10 I was gonna say they’ve left that they’ve left their run a bit late. It’s like that was years ago.
Dr Rad 41:15 They’d been worried about other matters, Dr. G
Dr G 41:17 Fair enough, fair enough.
Dr Rad 41:19 But I think that they I think they’re seeing an opportunity presented with the ill feeling towards Sempronius right now. Because Sempronius has also obviously done a terrible job in this battle, in that these young warriors had to come to the rescue. And so they’re like, You know what, this is an opportune moment for putting these guys on trial because everyone’s really hating on Sempronius right now, it’s the same story all over again. Now, just to remind listeners 426, may or may not be the year in which we had that momentous fight over Fidenae. And they and we had the most ridiculously handsome, Cornelius Cossus coming out, maybe killing an Etruscan King of Veii, Lars Tolumnius. In this year, we had a dictator, Aemilius Mamercinus. We that was that year. That was that’s what we’re throwing back to at this point in time. So the tribunes call a meeting and they say you know what, the Romans have been betrayed by their generals at Veii. And there were no consequences. Now, once again, the army has been sent out against the Volscians as they’ve been let down by the consul. The cavalry has practically been slaughtered. The camp has been abandoned. This is absolutely disgusting. And this is where we get the name distributed coming in Gaius Iunius.
Dr G 42:50 Aha. He’s in!
Dr Rad 42:52 The Tribune, Gaius Iunius summons Tempanius to speak. And he asks him, tell me Tempanius, how did Sempronius prepare for battle? Do you think what he did was adequate? Was it in fact, you who rallied the cavalry on that day and came up with the battle strategy that saved our asses? When the cavalry ran into issues and was cut off from the rest of the army, did the consul come to your rescue? Did he even send you any help? Was he even there the next day, when you manage to make your way to the camp? Or did you in fact, find the camp abandoned, filled only with the wounded and the stuff that was left behind? I want the truth.
Dr G 43:43 Oh, how intense.
Dr Rad 43:45 I know. And you know exactly what Tempanius says, “you can’t handle the truth!” He’s very calm. He’s very calm. He’s cucumber, like, very measured. He doesn’t seek the glory for himself. And he does not want to criticise anybody. My translation describes this as soldierly dignity, stiff upper lip and what what exactly, he says, “Look, wasn’t up to me. I’m just a mere soldier to evaluate the performance of my general. The Roman people had deemed him worthy of that position when they selected him. So let’s just move on, shall we?”
Dr G 44:23 “And as for my role with the cavalry, I really do what I must do in the heat of battle. Any any other decurio would have done the same.”
Dr Rad 44:32 Exactly. He also goes on to testify. “Look, I saw the consul fighting. I saw him fighting at the front. I saw him encouraging the men and we were running around between the standards and missed enemy fire. I could not see everything of course, because that would be insane and that I had 1000 eyes like a fly. But I could hear the battle raging into the night. And I do not think, quite frankly, that it was possible for anyone to reach me and my men, they were just too many enemy. What you ask is unreasonable.”
Dr G 45:08 Oh, dear,
Dr Rad 45:09 He presumed that the consul had simply taken the rest of the army to a safe place. And in fact, that is what he had done. And it makes complete and utter sense that he did so.
Dr G 45:23 Where is Sempronius? Has he turned up back at Rome at this point in time? Or are people like that man’s a well, and half the army? We don’t know where it is.
Dr Rad 45:31 Just you wait, just you wait.
Dr G 45:32 Okay?
Dr Rad 45:33 Yeah. Now the Volscians, of course, also, were in the same tricky position. Everyone was confused, because not only was it a confusing battle, but it was nighttime for a huge chunk of it, apparently.
Dr G 45:46 Yeah, look at it’s really hard to tell how it went. I couldn’t see anything, including the enemy.
Dr Rad 45:51 Yeah, exactly. Tempanius is finally allowed to sit down after this damning testimony. No, not really. After this testimony, which does nothing to damn anybody.
Dr G 46:01 Tem-pain-ius, as we can call him, because he’s in pain a lot.
Dr Rad 46:07 Anyway, so he’s dismissed and everyone’s like, wow, what a guy. I mean, could I be any more in love with him? Not only has he rescued the Romans, but he has also not actually taken up this opportunity to win all this praise for himself. He’s just so humble and brave. I mean, I think I’m ovulating right now.
Dr G 46:32 So much virtus right now.
Dr Rad 46:34 Now, you asked about Sempronius. Let me tell you about where Sempronius is.
Dr G 46:40 Yeah, where’s Sempronius? This guy is missing in action.
Dr Rad 46:43 Yeah, so he’s travelling along somewhere called the Labican road. You may know where this is. I do not.
Dr G 46:50 Not offhand. No.
Dr Rad 46:52 Okay. So he apparently reaches a shrine. The shrine of the I think it’s the Quies. Quies. It spelled q u i e s. Hmm, never heard of it. Probably should have looked that up actually. But anyway, he reached his this particular shrine. Wagons and animals are sent out from the city because he’s obviously close enough to Rome that they, I guess, can see him coming or he sent word ahead and they’re like, You guys must be tired. Let us help you out. “Thank God, I am exhausted. This battle seemingly never ended.” Now the consul is in the city soon after this. And he clearly wants to single Tempanius out for praise because he recognises that Tempanius was the hero of the day. However, he’s also a trifle defensive about what went down.
Dr G 47:40 Fair enough. It’s always awkward when you go into something full of confidence with no preparation and that it doesn’t work.
Dr Rad 47:48 Who knew that it would blow up in your face? I feel like this is one of those situations where we can say I tried nothing. And I’m fresh out of ideas.
Dr G 47:57 I mean, it’s embarrassing.
Dr Rad 48:00 Yeah. So the citizens are absolutely Spurius Furius in their rage against Sempronius.
Dr G 48:09 Fair enough.
Dr Rad 48:10 Yeah, they’re also pretty mad about the guys from a few years back now because of Sempronius. They’re like, yeah, yeah, I remember that thing that they, you military tribunes with consular power, good for nothings. And so they are in fact put on trial before the people. And Marcus Postumius, one of the military tribunes with consular power is fined 10,000 pounds of bronze for his sheer stupidity.
Dr G 48:39 That is, that’s a lot of bronze. Poor man. All right, didn’t lead well enough and there’s a price to be paid. That’s good to know.
Dr Rad 48:48 There is indeed.
Dr G 48:49 So the tribunes are coming forward with some effective strategies for trying to like you know, keep the patricians in check a little bit be like, sure you could lead the army, but that does mean you have a responsibility to be good at leading an army. And if you’re not gonna do it properly, maybe don’t get us all killed.
Dr Rad 49:11 Exactly. Now, you might be wondering, Dr. G, what about that other guy? Because Marcus Postumius was not alone when he was in charge of the forces at Veii and you are quite right, Titus Quinctius. Now this is a family we’ve had a lot to do with. This is in fact we think the brother of Cincinnatus, so he belongs to that gens.
Dr G 49:36 One of the famed Cincinnati’s
Dr Rad 49:39 Yeah. Now he has had some military success. He has won some victories against the Volscians, not difficult given the Romans fight the Volscians all the time, case in point. And he also has been part of one of the Roman victories at Fidenae because he was lieutenant to the dictator Aemilius. So he’s not in quite as much doo doo as Postumius.
Dr G 50:07 He has had some successes in his military command history.
Dr Rad 50:11 He has now he comes forward and completely throws Postumius under the bus. Oh, yeah, he is acquitted by all the tribes because he pins all the blame for everything that went wrong and 426 on Postumius.
Dr G 50:28 Wow. Cincinnatus. Not cool.
Dr Rad 50:32 Apparently, though, people also feel sorry for him because they still love Cincinnatus. I mean, what’s not to love about Cincinnatus? He has not got a great fortune, and yet he still serves the state tirelessly. Whenever they call on him. He’s there.
Dr G 50:50 Oh, he’s basking in the reflected light of familial connection is he?
Dr Rad 50:56 It would seem so because it seems as though by this point, he is finally dying. And nobody wants to tell him that this is where his family is at.
Dr G 51:08 Your family is now out of favour. Sorry about that.
Dr Rad 51:11 Yeah, absolutely. Now, whether any of this is in fact, true is obviously a moot point. There seems to be something going on here. Although interestingly, I did read that the Quintii and the Postumii, often very closely related because there’s some marriages going on in between their families. So interesting.
Dr G 51:38 I wouldn’t, yeah, maybe some family jealousy at play here.
Dr Rad 51:42 I was gonna say, yeah, it’s possible that this is a bit of a falling out between the families here.
Dr G 51:48 Quite possibly, the drama, gossip.
Dr Rad 51:52 I know. So that’s kind of where 423 winds up for me. We’ll probably be picking out some of the pieces of this, I think into the next year. But I would like to note before we sign off here, that I have enjoyed this episode so much because it has so many of our classic characters that live he likes to bring in the troublesome tribunes, the heroic soldierly plebeians. I love it.
Dr G 52:18 Yeah, I think there’s a there’s a good story element to what Louie has brought to the table for 423. So I’m excited to avoid all the details from you and to have thrown in a couple of details along the way as well.
Dr Rad 52:34 Yeah, well, the interesting thing I think about the whole story about Sempronius, because this is quite a prominent family. And as you signalled at the beginning, it is interesting because the Sempronii seemingly started out as a plebeian gens and become patricians. And then we know that they’re going to have an association with the plebeians again. So it’s really interesting that you noted that plebeian connection with Atratinus coming in later as well, like, clearly, there’s a bit of interesting stuff going on here with this particular family. And obviously, different branches of the family, I would say,
Dr G 53:07 Yeah, and I think this gives us a sense of insight into the shifting sands. That is the nature of the Roman elite and the hierarchies that might be at play in the Roman state. We’re never really quite sure where people sit exactly. And we know, this harks back into that big idea that we’ve mentioned before where we’re not really sure where the elites are coming from, we’re not sure whether they’re patricians, or known as patricians at this stage. But there is this does seem to be a division between the citizens that can hold certain positions and the ones that cannot, and the Sempronii, seem to be one of these families that straddles both of these categories across the centuries.
Dr Rad 53:54 Definitely. And one of the other things that live in may, in fact, be playing with here, which we have come across before, is this and this is not living alone. This is a bit of a Roman trait. This assumption that people from the same family behave the same way no matter how much time has passed. We’ve seen that very much with the Appius Claudiuses that we have encountered over time, with each one of them just becoming even more despicable than the one before.
Dr G 54:22 Gotta uphold the family tradition. I’ve got to try it out to my ancestors in being terrible and arrogant.
Dr Rad 54:28 Yeah, and it would seem that this might be the case with Sempronius. Because this battle, which has taken place forever, you’re quite correct about that being the location of this Volscian battle. It seems to mirror very closely, a very famous battle from the Second Punic War. So in 218 BCE, there was a battle at Trevia. And one of the people leading that battle is a guy called Tiberius Sempronius Longus. Now you’re going to see some really strong parallels here. Because once again, we’ve got a consul, who is not preparing properly, we see him making foolish decisions when preparing for the battle not being properly prepared. And then we see a division of forces into two groups, and then only managing to escape through sheer luck. And also, this battle was rescued because of the dismounting of the cavalry to fight as infantry at Cannae. So it seems to be a blending together of some stories that come from the Punic Wat and being maybe used to construct the battle here. Now, as you’ve noted many times strategy, I am not insinuating that this battle did not in fact, happen. And that the Romans are in fact making it all up, and just using a latest story to invent their history. But they might be fleshing out the details when they know that there’s a defeat of a console called sim peroneus, who ends up getting themselves into a lot of a lot of trouble by using some of the details from this Punic War battle, and probably drawing on some family folklore here.
Dr G 56:18 Yeah, definitely, I think you’re quite right about stuff like that, where the family legacy and the idea of inherited characteristics is very much something the Romans are into. They read backwards as well as forwards into their family lines with this kind of thing. So yeah, I’m willing to buy that theory. And I look forward to the day we get to the Battle of Cannae so we can not only go through that particular battle in incredible detail, but then also have a think back to this particular battle as well.
Dr Rad 56:49 Absolutely. Trevia and Cannae, I’m there in like, 20 years with you. It’ll happen. It’s a date.
Dr G 56:56 I will see you there.
Dr Rad 56:58 Absolutely. And that really brings me therefore to the end of what I have for 423. And I don’t want to go into 422 just yet. That means it is time for The Partial Pick.
All right, Dr. G, tell us about the Partial Pick.
Dr G 57:16 The Partial Pick, there are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs. Rome, can they do it? We will find out there are five categories. There are 10 golden eagles on offer in each category. Our first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 57:33 This is an awkward one because they clearly doing really badly for a while. And I don’t think they really win so much as not lose.
Dr G 57:44 I think it’s pretty awkward to suggest that they have military clout, when it seems like what has happened has been a failure in leadership to really pull the battle together. It sounds like they could have easily won this if they’d been prepared.
Dr Rad 57:59 Well, I mean, they’ve beat the valskis so many times. I mean, can that go off? They could have won it.
Dr G 58:04 Nobody’s expecting them to lose at this point. So it’s awkward that they have
Dr Rad 58:08 Yeah, so I don’t know. I mean, what are we going to give them like maybe a three to recognise Tempanius snd his crew?
Dr G 58:16 Yeah, the amazing turnaround provided by Tempanius and his dismounting of the cavalry. Look, yeah, I think that deserves some sort of reward, maybe for being too harsh. No, I was gonna go even less actually, because I think a lot of what Tempanius does might fit into a future category. I’d be going for like, two.
Dr Rad 58:37 Oh, okay. Two. All right. Uh, two.
Dr G 58:40 All right. Our next category is Diplomacy.
Dr Rad 58:44 Well, where it was. So
Dr G 58:49 You say diplomacy? I say no, thank you.
Dr Rad 58:51 Yeah. And I mean, if even if we look at the random story that Livy decided to tell me about what happened to Capua, no diplomacy there either.
Dr G 59:01 Yeah, I mean, people just gave up, didn’t they?
Dr Rad 59:03 That was the most random story, I think. I think maybe he was just trying to explain where the name Capua came from.
Dr G 59:08 Yeah, but why now? Very strange. All right. That’s that’s a no.
Dr Rad 59:15 This is your Yeah. All right.
Dr G 59:17 Expansion.
Dr Rad 59:18 I don’t get the sense that they’re winning any territory here.
Dr G 59:23 It doesn’t sound like it. No. Okay. That’s a clear zero as well. All right. I think there might be a bit of a comeback in Virtus.
Dr Rad 59:30 I agree. I mean, I think it has to be a 10 out of 10 for this guy. I mean, he comes out of nowhere, he does his duty and battle he puts himself at risk. He manages to fight amazing battle and make it out alive, saving probably the life of the cavalry with him, as well as also preserving the ruins from utter defeat. And then when he gets back to the city, he doesn’t even want to brag about it. I might have a stroke. Hmm.
Dr G 1:00:02 Well, if you run into this guy in a bar, you can have him. I’ll be your wingwoman. Yeah, there’s an amazing display of virtus here, I think and I don’t know that I can give it a 10 though. So that’s my that’s my hesitation because this is not a clear victory.
Dr Rad 1:00:22 Wow, way to be harsh Dr. G. Oh my god, the years have made you cruel.
Dr G 1:00:30 I feel like if it was
Dr Rad 1:00:31 But he and his band, I think they have been victorious in like preserving the Roman army from slaughter defeat disgrace. And not only that, they haven’t even died themselves. I mean, sure. I’m sure a couple of them have died. But they’ve made it out alive. They go back to the camp. And then he didn’t even throw Sempronius under the bus. I mean, what more do you want for little old Tempanius?
Dr G 1:00:58 Alright, alright
Dr Rad 1:00:59 He’s a plebeian he’s a plebeian.
Dr G 1:01:02 I’ll give him a ten.
Dr Rad 1:01:05 Yessss. That’s what I’m talking about.
Dr G 1:01:09 And our last category is the citizen score.
Dr Rad 1:01:13 Okay, I don’t think this is probably great.
Dr G 1:01:16 It’s not an ideal time to be a Roman citizen. You have been signed up and levied into an army that is being poorly Led.
Dr Rad 1:01:24 Yes.
Dr G 1:01:24 Generally speaking.
Dr Rad 1:01:25 Yeah.
Dr G 1:01:26 It seems like we don’t know the outcome of this battle. So lives are definitely lost. We know that was plenty of injuries. One of the things Tempanius seems to do is go back and rescue some of the injured from the camp.
Dr Rad 1:01:39 I have a feeling it’s considered to be like a tie, because they’re both they’re both panics. They’re both in disarray. Neither one has dominated, sir. Yeah, I think it’s an inconclusive battle, for sure. Although, in a way, I think the Romans also kind of look at that as being just as bad as a defeat because it shouldn’t have been such a close run thing.
Dr G 1:02:02 Yeah. So it’s, it’s not great. If you’re a plebeian and you’re serving in the infantry. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:02:11 We do see the tribunes coming out and being like, hey,
Dr G 1:02:16 that’s true. Levelling some prosecutions against the generals of former times. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:02:23 And current times. Oh, they’re coming fast and furious.
Dr G 1:02:27 Just you wait. Yeah. Stay tuned.
Dr Rad 1:02:29 I like I like the accountability. So that’s at least something.
Dr G 1:02:33 Okay. I’d say on the accountability side of it. I’d be inclined to give it a five and above.
Dr Rad 1:02:39 Oh, okay. I’m gonna go five because I don’t think it’s that amazing. I mean, he’s fine. Like big whoop.
Dr G 1:02:45 Don’t know how much bronze you’ve got lying around. But you know, it’s gonna be tough.
Dr Rad 1:02:49 Sure, it’s a huge fine and everything but I mean, you know. We know how the elites work. He’ll be getting money passed to him from his other patrician buddies. He won’t be really doing it tough, come on. He’ll be fine. He’ll be fine. He’ll land on his feet. He said he’s from the Postumii. He’ll be fine.
Dr G 1:03:06 It’s true. Yeah. All right. So five. Yeah,
Dr Rad 1:03:09 So that means Dr. G, the Romans have earned themselves a grand total of 17 Golden Eagles.
Dr G 1:03:17 Well, it’s not a pass, but it’s better than some other times.
Dr Rad 1:03:23 I think it’s better than I was expecting. Given that this is not really a great military year for them.
Dr G 1:03:29 It did seem like mostly a rout. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:03:33 Absolutely. So 17 Not too shabby. largely thanks to one hero, one batte.
Dr G 1:03:42 One man standing out from the crowd, stepping down off his horse to fight in the trenches.
Dr Rad 1:03:48 Indeed. And I think that we have also exposed Livy to being sued for violating the plotline of “A Few Good Men”.
Dr G 1:03:56 How dare he?
Dr Rad 1:03:57 I know he totally stole that courtroom scene, embarrassing.
Dr G 1:04:02 We’ll have to write him a strongly worded letter.
Dr Rad 1:04:04 We will indeed.
Dr G 1:04:06 Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to learn all about 423 BCE with you, Dr. Rad.
Dr Rad 1:04:12 Indeed has Dr. G. I will see you next time for 422 When no doubt we will still be referring back to this horrible year.
Dr G 1:04:20 Oh yeah. The legacy of this is going to take some time for Rome to get over Yeah, definitely.
Dr Rad 1:04:44 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today we’d like to give a special shout out to some of our heavy hitters or our most generous patrons in no particular order. Ryan, Frederick Michael D’Andrea, Amanda, Doron Vincent, Sean Virginia, Mickey Spurius de with Augustus, Steve, AJ, Molly, David, James, John, Kiley, Chris, Anna, Aaron, Robyn Kylie, Liz, Elise, Ted, Austin Annesley, Jacob, Theodore art, Savannah, Joel, Sharon, and Roman. You can also support us, however, by getting a copy of our collaboration with Bridget Clark from Gumroad or deck yourself out in Partial merchandise. But if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. We just love having stars in our eyes. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
How the Plebeians Got Their Groove Back
Apr 13, 2023
In this episode we dig into the details (or lack thereof!) of 425 and 425 BCE. Good news for the plebeians is that when there’s not much going on in Rome, they get a chance to just live life a little!
Episode 136 – How the Plebeians Got Their Groove Back
What’s in a tribune?
What’s the deal with military tribunes with consular power? We consider the etymology of tribune (the Latin tribunus) to better understand this facet of the political structure. This also means tackling the big question of: who were the magistrates in this period of history and how much can we take from our later writers like Livy and Dionsysius of Halicarnassus?
Games, glorious games!
The time is ripe for Rome to hold games in honour of the gods. There’s no battle to be had and diplomacy in the local region seems to be taking a turn for peace. What better time to invite everyone over for some sport and festivities?
Jean-Léon Gérôme 1876. Chariot Race. This is an imagined scene of a Roman chariot race at the Circus Maximus at the height of Rome’s power (we’re not up to that point in Rome’s history in this episode!). The Circus itself is thought to be significantly old – dating back potentially as early as the kings.
Things to listen out for
The horrifying lack of detail from the sources Dr G has to study
Livy writing a history of peace rather than war
Shocking revelations about Igor’s (our resident eagle) paycheck
The return of the Claudii.
Our Players 425 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Aulus Sempronius L. f. A. n. Atratinus (Pat) – Cos 428b
Lucius Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) (Broughton Cin. *3) – Cos 428b, military tribune with consular power 438
Lucius Furius Sp. f. – n. Medullinus (Pat), Military tribune with consular power in 432
Lucius Horatius M. f. M. n. Barbatus (Pat)
Our Players 424 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Appius Claudius Ap. f. Ap. n. Crassus (Pat)
Spurius Nautius Sp. f. – n. Rutilus (Pat)
Lucius Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat) – previously cos. 437, 429; military tribune with consular power 433
Sextus Julius – f. – n. Iullus (Pat)
Our Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.81.1, 12.82.1
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.35.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Additional sound effects from BBC Beta.
Greek black figure vase of a charioteer with four horses. This Athenian vase is obviously not a Roman artefact, but it’s thought to date to c. 410-400 BCE which is very close to the period we explore in this episode. Gathering together for games and chariot racing was common across the Mediterranean. The Roman were likely inspired or influenced by ideas for games and races from the Greeks and the Etruscans.
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:20 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr. Rad and this intelligent, ravishing creature next to me is
Dr G 1:06 Dr. G. Yay, I feel very complimented. Is it my sequined dinosaur t shirt?
Dr Rad 1:12 I mean, if that doesn’t scream, intelligent and ravishing, I don’t know what
Dr G 1:16 Ah, you’re so kind!
Dr Rad 1:19 So I’m thrilled to be back that back again, in the studio, talking about Ancient Rome with you.
Dr G 1:26 Yeah we’ve been exploring Ancient Rome from the foundation of the city. And we are well into what is the early republic at this point, it’s a roundabout 425
Dr Rad 1:38 It is
Dr G 1:38 BCE
Dr Rad 1:39 I feel like we’ve really raced ahead suddenly, like for a while, it was just like moving through slow setting cement. So I didn’t feel like we could get out of the middle of the fifth century BCE. And here we are, we are getting so close to a new century.
Dr G 1:55 Things are speeding up. And I think we have to thank our missing source material,
Dr Rad 2:00 I was gonna say, probably not a good thing. It’s the fact that everything seems to be a little bit blancker.
Dr G 2:07 There are a lot of fragments. But before we get into 425, and maybe what we could possibly know about it, let’s do a little bit of a recap of where we’re up to. And just think a little bit about 426. And where the land lay at that point.
Dr Rad 2:23 Well, it’s a difficult one, because to give a recap of 426, Dr G, is but to give a recap of a 437 as well.
Dr G 2:33 It’s a tough time in our Roman source material. And it’s centered around this guy, all this Cornelius Cossus, who is most famous in all of Roman history for being one of the three Roman generals to achieve taking the spoila optima.
Dr Rad 2:50 I feel like that should have been a sign to them that they were maybe making it too high.
Dr G 2:57 All of Rome, only three men, well, maybe. But it’s really challenging because it has to be somebody who is in the military in a significant position, taking down the enemy leader directly. So it’s a commander taking out a commander, basically in single combat in amongst a whole other battle going on around them.
Dr Rad 3:20 And it makes it even more difficult because technically, he may not be that person, because he doesn’t seem to matter, potentially, when he did this.
Dr G 3:30 Awkward awkward, like 426 is one of the years. He also could have done it in 428 when he was actual consul that would make narrative sense to me. Yeah. And that’s the that’s the date I would hone in on. But it could also have been as early as you say 437 – 438 as well. Yeah, so everything’s a little bit hazy.
Dr Rad 3:49 But the bigger context for who all is Cossus. Sorry. Aulus Cornelius Cossus was fighting is Veii.
Dr G 3:57 Yes. Yeah. He’s fighting the Etruscans. Yeah. And Rome at this point in time, the big picture is that Rome is sort of finding its way with its neighbors, like, how does it sit within the broader Italian landscape? Where do they do their strength lies? Who are their allies? Who are they against, and they’re now butting up really closely against the Etruscans. And the city of Veii is the southern most Etruscan city we know of, and it is a mere 15 or 20 kilometers from Rome itself. And, you know, a good day’s march – hard and fast – and you’ll get there and you’ll be ready to fight them by the next breakfast.
Dr Rad 4:34 Absolutely. And it also that conflict was they seem to be pivoting on the question of Fidenae, I think in whatever you’re talking about. But in this past decade, it seems to be a real sore spot that this colony of Fidenae really wants to be sided with the Etruscans and every time they decide they’re going to make the switch to room conflict ensues.
Dr G 5:00 Yeah, it’s a tragic time Rome has convinced that Fidenae is theirs
Dr Rad 5:04 Yup
Dr G 5:04 And Fidenae is apparently a Roman colony from way back, depending on how you look at it. And Fidenae has defected they’ve thrown their lot in with the Etruscans. And Rome is less than pleased.
Dr Rad 5:17 Absolutely, they’re not gonna take that. So as a result, we had a lot of military action in 426 BCE, rightly or wrongly, this is how it’s come across to us with the Romans after having a difficult start pulling through Yeah,
Dr G 5:35 Whoo.
Dr Rad 5:39 Yeah, so that’s kind of weird. Sarcasm may not be detected. So that’s kind of where I think we ended up at the end 426, which is actually refreshing. Because the early 420s BC were a little dull. I’m not gonna lie.
Dr G 6:01 They were but as as 426 concludes, it feels like we’ve maybe reached the conclusion of a certain level of the combat because if the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius has not died up until now. We think he must be dead by this point in time. Yeah. So that brings us to
Dr Rad 6:23 The extended deadline. Sorry, that brings us to
Dr G 6:29 425 BCE.
Welcome one and all. Roll up, roll up for 425 BCE.
Dr Rad 7:18 Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Dr G 7:22 Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.
Dr Rad 7:25 Party on, Livy is not!
Dr G 7:28 The Fasti Capitolini are missing.
Dr Rad 7:31 Oh, really?
Dr G 7:32 They are. They’ve been missing for a little while now. And that?
Dr Rad 7:34 Well, you kept that quiet.
Dr G 7:37 I mean, there’s there was no point to mention them. So this year, I have four military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad 7:44 Now, I would love for you to tell me their names, Dr G. But before you do that, I would like to pause because I was talking with a learned gentleman the other day, who asked me to explain where the title of tribune actually comes from.
Dr G 8:03 And it’s a good question because it does have “tri-” in it. So a group of three, but we can already see with the plebeian tribunes that, maybe it depends.
Dr Rad 8:13 Sure. And I think it also has this link to the fact that Rome, that having at least according to their own history, Rome was organized into tribes. And so “tribune” was often a title given to someone who was the leader of some sort of group that had something to do with the tribal organization. And if we think about what you were saying in terms of the number and that idea of where does the word tribune comes from? Romulus originally divided the population of Rome up into three tribes, correct?
Dr G 8:42 Yes, correct. Yes.
Dr Rad 8:44 And so this is a title that a lot of people get in some form or another. So for example, obviously, we’ve got the tribune of the plebs. Now, we don’t think that the tribune of the plebs have a particularly strong connection to the tribal structure to the ancient tribe. Yeah, no, we don’t think so. But it makes sense, obviously, that they are presiding over a body where people are organized, it is a tribal assembly, essentially, that they presiding over as well. So there’s a connection there. It’s also just a say a word that the Romans start to use for these people who are leading some sort of tribal group. And I’d say it’s also something that therefore, the more they get into the habit of using that for these people, the more that the practice of using that term, obviously, continues on. And then obviously, when we’ve got military tribunes and military tribunes refer to leaders, obviously, of a particular army group. Again, probably very early on in Rome’s history, there was probably some sort of tribal organization to the group that they were commanding, but eventually it doesn’t have anything to do with that, but the title stays.
Dr G 9:49 Yes, yeah, the meaning changes, but the would remain where it lives on.
Dr Rad 9:53 And so obviously military tribunes with consular power is, you know, apparently the Romans putting this idea of well plebeians they don’t have the auspicium to be, you know, they can’t be a consul like the patricians can, we have the auspicium we you know monopolizing all the auspicium that’s out there, so you can’t hold that position and therefore they give it they’ve used this position this military tribunes and given it the you know the authority or the power of the consul without giving it the actual consulship. So yeah, it’s a very fine line isn’t so complicated try and explain.
And yet for all of the explanations that are put forward for the idea that these military tribunes with consular power should open up the position to people who aren’t necessarily patrician, what we tend to find is that they’re largely patrician.
Yes. And see, I was really it’s really interesting article the other day, which puts forward this argument that at this point in Rome’s history, this idea of consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it’s just nearly allies, because this person was saying that it seems as though Rome, obviously, is, as we’ve been talking about as much of the stuff that we’ve been talking about, I suppose, but taking it a little bit further, that Rome has this narrative that they got rid of the kings, and then they seamlessly transitioned into this Republican system, which is suspiciously similar to the late Republic.
Dr G 11:33 Yeah
Dr Rad 11:33 Yeah. And that, in this in this particular context, in early Rome, this person has suggested that actually, there are no senior magistrates, so consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it doesn’t exist at this point in time. It’s something that exists a bit later, probably about if we’re at 425 right now, probably, what about 80 years, that’s when we start to see the appearance of these sorts of things. And that really, we’ve just got patricians, which is much what we’ve seen monopolizing power. So because they are wealthy, they have resources, they have clients, they’ve been able to monopolize power in the countryside. And if we look at the names that the tribes have been given out in the countryside, like outside of the pomerium, outside of the city of Rome itself, they kind of reflect the power that these people hold. So like they might be named after a particular gentes. So like, Aemelia, or whatever. And then if we look at the tribes within the city, that’s not the case. It’s the tribal names are more reflective of like, where you live, you know, it’s like the Palatina or something like,
Dr G 12:40 Yeah, look, I think it’s pretty fair to take the position that the way that state structures form is slow. And it’s a process. And things are not necessarily set in structures that make sense. And structures have to alter and change.
Dr Rad 13:01 Yup
Dr G 13:02 And adapt to situations. And part of the challenge for historians is that there is very few ways for us to get closer to what actually may have happened in the past than we already are.
Dr Rad 13:18 Yeah, for sure.
Dr G 13:19 And so these written sources that we’re relying on, whether it’s the fasti, whether it’s Dionysius or Livy, these people are doing the best they can, I like to give them the benefit of the doubt – doing the best they can with the information that they have at hand. But the way that information is kept and conveyed over time is problematic. Yeah. And it’s not rigorous in the same way like we live in this internet age where we have an overabundance, if you like of information, yeah, that doesn’t mean that it’s easy to access the information that is actually useful, and, and good and true. Yeah. And we know that truth is a multiplicity, depending on your subjectivity. So if we take all of those ideas that we understand into account, the complexity of what’s at play here is far beyond what we’re going to be able to discern from the source material. Yeah. And there’s lots of things that we don’t know. So the best that we can say in this sort of case is that, yes, you know, something like the name “tribune” has a couple of different sort of etymological connections that it could draw upon to make it make sense. But at the same time, it’s clearly in use, and when language is in use, meanings change and adapt to the necessity of the moment.
Dr Rad 14:33 Absolutely.
Dr G 14:34 Not holding true to the etymology of how it originally came about.
Dr Rad 14:39 Yeah. And I think this is the thing I as you say, I don’t believe I mean, I like to say “Liza Minnelli lies”, but I don’t think that as you say that they’re totally making this up, doesn’t mean that these people that we’re talking about didn’t exist. It doesn’t mean that the actions they took weren’t taken, the events didn’t happen and that sort of thing. I think it’s kind of more the maybe the top titles that people held and that sort of thing, or the idea that maybe that the state was quite so formalized, which is something that we have been talking about for a really long time in this early Republican period. And I kind of I must admit, I was kind of convinced by the idea that when you look at the, even in the, in the periods where we’re a bit more convinced of the fact that like the consulship, or the apprenticeship or whatever the title was given did exist, the kinds of things that those people would do are military. This idea that you might have a division of power between civilian and military positions, and therefore, these people that we’re talking about, like, there’s no doubt that there were people out there wielding military power. Definitely the patricians held that.
Dr G 15:45 I mean, it seems likely.
Dr Rad 15:46 It seems very likely. I mean, that makes total sense. And therefore this idea that, you know, these guys are the ones commanding the armies makes 100% sense. It’s a good question, I suppose is, do they actually hold this formalized position? And are they quite as dominant inside the city as the sources sometimes make it sound? Because what this article was arguing was more the fact that it was probably more like minor officials who are doing the sort of day to day governance kind of stuff. So the people who are you know, like the neighborhood leaders, I think they’re called like the things like the curio maximus or something like
Dr G 16:24 Oh, yeah, I love a good curio maximus.
Dr Rad 16:27 Yeah. So like, like neighborhood leaders and and people who hold slightly more localized positions, who are keeping things running on the inside of the city, because of course. Rome does have this really interesting ban on military power inside the pomerium. You know, the fact that the fact that military assemblies that generals, soldiers, they all have to say outside of the pomerium, and it means that whilst the patricians might be able to throw their weight around in terms of military matters, they need a different outlet for that inside the city. And that comes back to what we’ve talked about before in terms of them potentially dominating the priesthood. And therefore being able to keep control over things like war, and judicial matters through there, kind of just cutting of the knowledge around how things actually work. And so a lot of the stuff that we’ve said makes sense. It’s just, it just maybe you take away the sort of official titles.
Oh yeah, we’ve got no guarantees on titles around here.
But I just I just thought that was interesting, because it’s so hit the mark with so many of the things that we’ve been talking about, in terms of the fact that like, these ideas, and these structures probably come in later, but you can still see the events happening. And, you know, the patricians and plebeians potentially having issues of tension around who has power and the tribune of the plebs coming out of that, in terms of being able to provide protection, particularly the tribune of the plebs being connected to the city of Rome, where the patricians don’t have that military power. It just, it was just really interesting to sort of see that all coming together. In one article, which I was like, Yeah, this makes this makes sense to me.
Dr G 18:12 Ah look, and I think this sort of thing is really important, because we’re not sure how, how the Roman state really develops, like, you know, they they tell this history about themselves? Yeah. And that’s fine. And we’re going through it and sort of, you know, delving into it as we go along. But we’re not sure about consuls at this point in time. We’re not sure about tribunes at this point in time, we’re not sure about the social division between the petitions and the plebeians as even being a plausible thing at this time. And so we’re dealing with a murky history of Rome, where Rome, leader Romans are trying to interpret and understand themselves by sort of like retrojecting, like what would be the previous steps? Yeah. What would make sense for this thing to exist now? And they sort of they see it as a gradual sort of process. But it’s open to interpretation.
Dr Rad 19:12 I think, I think the base story 100% make sense, which is you’ve got powerful, a powerful aristocracy, which is able to assert itself and remain dominant for some time once you no longer have a king. Yeah, because there’s no, there’s no one keeping them in check anymore. And then you have the people reacting against abuses of power and corruption. And that’s where you get the birth of something like the tribune of the plebs. And luckily for them, the tribunes of the plebs. Well, luckily, I mean, that’s not a coincidence, but with the development of the tribune of the plebs developing that power of or that oath being taken to protect them physically, you know, so making them in violet It offers them a level of protection, particularly because they are based in the city.
Dr G 20:06 You might not be able to have a sword in the city, but nobody can stop you getting beaten up unless we say so.
Dr Rad 20:11 Yeah exactly. But that idea of there being protection and the fact that the Romans, who are the elite, they can’t just bring their soldiers in and kill these guys. I mean, if you think about this article, make the point. That’s really annoying, because I want this guy. Well, they’re making the point of like, how easily did they get rid of Spurius Maelius? Well, pretty easily, pretty much he wasn’t attributing but I think they broke the state to do it. Well, sure. But like, at the end of the day, they got rid of him pretty easily. And he wasn’t a tribune, he was just like a guy that that was making trouble for them. Why wouldn’t they do that with the tribune unless they are respecting this?
Dr G 20:46 Yeah, but we also don’t know when tribunes becomes inviolable,
Dr Rad 20:49 I know
Dr G 20:50 And we also don’t really know when the pomerium becomes the be all and end all of entering or not with a sword.
Dr Rad 20:56 No, but it just it just made. It just made sense to me in the sense of like, the fact that there are more tribunes, it seems than there are, say consuls, like if we’re going by the official
Dr G 21:06 Oh, yeah.
Dr Rad 21:07 Two consuls.
Dr G 21:07 And I think part of this and we will get on to those military tribunes. I’m not going to leave you hanging
Dr Rad 21:13 Pause for the longest digression known to man. Hi Herodotus!
Dr G 21:17 Hello, hello. We’ll come back to those guys in a sec. But the thing with the military tribunes with consular power, is that it is clear that even from the like the long distance of looking back over like 300-400 years of history, yeah, that people in the late Republic understood Rome as not being an all powerful entity right off the bat, for sure. It is a city of struggle. Yeah. And it is not just a struggle, which results in having to exile kings and getting rid of the whole idea altogether. It’s a struggle to build a workable idea of how a state looks if it’s not run by one person.
Dr Rad 21:59 Yeah, absolutely.
Dr G 22:00 They really struggling to figure out how to do it. And they’re being pressed at this point in time from all sides. Everybody around them wants nothing to do with them. It is a constant jostling. And it seems like every city state, essentially because you could think of them as sort of isolated states, that they’re all struggling for their and jostling for their position in central Italy right now. And Rome is just another city trying to do its best.
Dr Rad 22:28 Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that’s what’s I mean, this, this kind of made sense to me. And also, I mean, also the idea that Rome will continue to be struggling to assert itself for quite some time. And the idea that consuls are a good idea that consuls and praetors don’t really develop a strong connection to like civil administration and civil governance until quite some time later, because they’re still dealing with all his military stuff. Like that’s still their main point of existence and still there.
Dr G 23:02 Yeah, you gotta have that imperium. You know what I’m saying? You gotta have it.
Dr Rad 23:05 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I was like, Yeah, you know that that is true. And the fact that tribune of the plebs obviously become, you know, so powerful, but again, over time,
Dr G 23:16 Yeah, very much over time, and we see them struggling here.
Dr Rad 23:22 Digression done, thank you for indulging me
Dr G 23:24 It was a pleasure. Always always interesting. So military tribunes with consular power it’s 425 BCE. Yeah. Who have we got riding that wagon? Well, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus.
Dr Rad 23:39 A name I’ve heard before
Dr G 23:40 Yes, you might remember him as being part of the suffect consulship in 428. Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.
Dr Rad 23:51 Another name is very familiar, but not the guy that you’re thinking of.
Dr G 23:54 Also suffect consul 428. Lucius Furius. Medullinus, military tribune with consular power in 432. And Lucius Horatius Barbatus nobody’s ever heard of him before.
Dr Rad 24:13 But we have heard the name Horatii
Dr G 24:16 We have, but it’s it’s interesting to me that we’ve got three out of our four military tributes people who have either previously held the consulship or the military tribunate with consular power. Yeah, previously true. So which makes me think Rome is in dire straits this year, because they’ve only picked really experienced dudes to come back into the situation. interesting take on it. Yeah, except for Barbartus, the bready one who you know might be somebody’s protege.
Dr Rad 24:45 Okay, well get ready to be blown away, Dr. G, by what am I about to tell you based on Livy’s account?
Dr G 24:50 Oh, yeah.
Dr Rad 24:51 Are you ready for it?
Dr G 24:51 I am.
Dr Rad 24:52 Can you handle it?
Dr G 24:52 I don’t know.
Dr Rad 24:54 Well, let’s let’s see. Alright, so 425. Livy tells me that Veii was granted a truce that was supposed to last for 20 years. And the Aequians were granted a truce of three years now. They had wanted more. But that is all there we’re going to get from Rome. And that’s it.
Dr G 25:17 That’s it?
Dr Rad 25:18 That’s it. Explicitly he says there were no foreign problems and no domestic problems. That is it.
Dr G 25:25 Wow. All of that experience in the military tribunate and for what?
Dr Rad 25:30 Well, this is why I was curious. I was like,
Dr G 25:35 Just you wait,
Dr Rad 25:37 Do they need all this experience? I don’t know that they do.
Dr G 25:41 I mean, maybe I mean, I understand that, you know, the war with Fidenae has been concluded because you know, they they shoved a whole bunch of the troublemakers into Ostia, we populated Fidenae with some Romans, we like you to behave yourselves now.
Dr Rad 25:54 Yeah. And then there was slaughter, so much slaughter.
Dr G 25:58 But I didn’t realize that the situation with Veii was coming about. So I did a bit of a timeline. A recap. Oh, okay. Yeah, cuz I’ve got nothing to talk about. I’ve no source material.
Dr Rad 26:08 Go for it.
Dr G 26:08 I mean, I’ve got Diodorus Siculus, who, you know, questionable, and
Dr Rad 26:11 You may as well have no sources.
Dr G 26:13 Oh, I like that man, but he’s very focused on the Peloponnesian War. But to just do a bit of a backstory and Fidenae. And what’s been going on in 438, Fidenae defects from Rome. That is the crucial moment. And apparently this is on the advice of the king of a Lars Tolumnius. Like, wow, you know, I saw… I saw this situation and I think you should defect. And it’s at that point that Fidenae follows what appears to be a trust and advice and slaughters the Roman ambassadors.
Dr Rad 26:45 Yeah. Who could forget? Who could forget the headless men.
Dr G 26:48 The statue still stands. Yeah. When Dionysius and Livy are writing, yeah. 437: There is there is war, war begins. Rome is not having anything to do with this. And depending on which source you read, and where you are in the timeline, this is exactly when Cossus killed Lars Tolumnius and deals with that situation.
Dr Rad 27:07 Excellent.
Dr G 27:08 We think that might be not true. 435 – we have the dictator Quintus Servilius, who captures Fidenae by tunneling under the Citadel. Yep, thrilling stuff.
Dr Rad 27:20 I did like that. That was strategy. You know, that was real strategy.
Dr G 27:23 One year, one tunnel later. And it doesn’t last though. So in 434, we’ve got Mamercus Aemelius appointed dictator, because of the threat from Veii. And this is, you know, the tension between the Fidenae and the Veii situation. All connected.
Dr Rad 27:43 It fizzles out ,right?
Dr G 27:44 There. It is a bit of a fizzer.
Dr Rad 27:45 Yeah.
Dr G 27:46 428: Cornelius Cossus consul. Yep. The Veii people are raiding Roman territory. I mean, they’ve got lots of ways of saying.
Dr Rad 27:57 It just sounds funny.
Dr G 27:59 The people of Veii. And Rome dispatches a triumviral commission to investigate Fidenae’s participation in the raids. led by Veii. 427: yeah, Rome sends out the fetiales to demand redress from Veii,
Dr Rad 28:18 Ah who could forget?
Dr G 28:20 And then declares war, because they do not get redress
Dr Rad 28:23 Jupiter as my witness
Dr G 28:25 426: Cossus and three other military tribunes, Mamercus Aemelius, dictator for the third time; Cossus is master of the horse. It’s all happening. They defeat Fidenae and Veii. Yeah, so that’s like the previous year. And now it ends with a truce. And now it’s truce time.
Dr Rad 28:43 Really long truce. 20 years?
Dr G 28:46 Well, I mean, at least a 10. And a bit.
Dr Rad 28:49 No, no, the truce is 20.
Dr G 28:51 Oh, it’s much longer than the conflict.
Dr Rad 28:53 That’s what I mean!
Dr G 28:55 We’ll see if it lasts. Yeah, yeah. So apparently, there’s three surviving monuments in Rome to this conflict with Fidenae. So we do think it has some historical basis beyond…
Dr Rad 29:05 The question is, did it last over this length of time? Or is it something that just happened at one of these points in time? And the Romans are confused?
Dr G 29:16 I think it would make sense for it to be a prolonged conflict.
Dr Rad 29:19 But this length, this length, or in this order, or in this order?
Dr G 29:23 Well, I don’t know if Rome is a capable military force right now. I mean, they want to be but you know, sometimes it doesn’t work out.
Dr Rad 29:29 They think that’s why they get so annoyed when they don’t do well like last episode.
Dr G 29:33 So there’s the statue commemorating the four Roman ambassadors who
Dr Rad 29:38 Possibly headless, not sure.
Dr G 29:41 Yeah, we’d have to find the statue. Yeah, and then be like, Oh, no, that heedlessness is a deliberate artistic choice. We’ve got the spoila optima won by Cossus, which is attested in the time of Augustus. He says
Dr Rad 29:53 By Augustus himself
Dr G 29:54 He says he’s seen it so I wouldn’t want to disbelieve Augustus because risk of death is high.
Dr Rad 29:59 God knows he never lies.
Dr G 30:02 Don’t be like that about my favorite. There is a golden crown that is also apparently dedicated in the Capitoline temple.
Dr Rad 30:09 Well, that’s right, because the dictator was made to dedicate it, apparently in 437.
Dr G 30:14 Yeah. So all of these physical objects that attest to oh, look, the history,
Dr Rad 30:19 I have no doubt there was conflict with Veii. But it’s just a question of, like, as I say, like did it all happen when they’re saying how they’re saying.
Dr G 30:27 Yeah, well, I mean, who can say but that’s all I’ve got for this year.
Dr Rad 30:30 Fair enough. All right. Let me take you on to 424 then.
Neil – History Hound 30:40 Hello to listeners of the Partial Historians, and thank you to the Partial Historians. My name is Neil and I’m the host creator and pretty much everything of the Ancient History Hound Podcast. I’m all about ancient history, and this includes ancient Greece, Rome and other cultures from antiquity. I cover a wide range of topics. I’m sure there’s something for you, but why not find out for yourself? Ancient History Hound is probably on the platform you’re using right now. So come and find me and have a scroll through the episodes. I reckon there’s something there for you. And it’d be great to have you join me.
Dr Rad 31:19 In 424, we once again have military tribunes with consular power. So who have we got Dr. G?
Dr G 31:27 We have Appius Claudius Crassus. Yes, Appius Claudius returns. This is the son of the infamous decemvir. Yeah, this family well, they don’t know when to quit.
Dr Rad 31:41 I knew it wasn’t the decemvir.
Dr G 31:43 No he’s done.
Dr Rad 31:44 He died shady circumstances.
Dr G 31:46 But his son was allowed to survive and thus the line of Claudii is perpetuated.
Dr Rad 31:53 Look, I’ll only be okay with that because eventually it’ll give me my favorite topic to study: The Julio-Claudius
Dr G 32:00 Tiberius.
Dr Rad 32:02 There’s a lot more to the Claudians than just Tiberius. Livia, huh? She marries into it but whatever.
Dr G 32:11 Spurius Nautious Rutilus, a patrician,
Dr Rad 32:15 Yep.
Dr G 32:15 Lucius Sergius Fidenas,
Dr Rad 32:15 Ah the hero Fidenae.
Dr G 32:19 Yeah. Previously consul in 437 and 429, military tribune with consular power in 433 – fancy. All right. And Sextus Julius Iullus.
Dr Rad 32:35 Still think that name should not be allowed to exist. Just sounds all shades of wrong.
Dr G 32:40 Iullus?
Dr Rad 32:40 Yeah. No just like the the Julius Iullus.
Dr G 32:44 Ah, yeah, it doesn’t. Oh, it doesn’t flow off the tongue.
Dr Rad 32:47 To be honest, it sounds like I’m making fun of him. And I’m not.
Dr G 32:51 It’s his name.
Dr Rad 32:52 Yeah. All right. Well, you’ll be relieved to hear I do have a little bit more detail from Livy in this year.
Dr G 32:58 Oh, that’s exciting. So I mean, Dionysus is predictably missing.
Dr Rad 33:02 Okay. Yeah, I was prepared for that this time.
Dr G 33:05 As is the fasti Capitolini. I have some Diodorus Siculus.
Dr Rad 33:09 Okay. Tell me what it is. I’ll tell you what’s wrong.
Dr G 33:13 Well, there’s some seems to be some question mark over the praenomen of Appius Claudius. Is it Appius? Or is it Titus? Hmm. Diadorus, says Titus. And as we know, Diodorus is often wrong.
Dr Rad 33:33 Look, if I know anything about the Romans is that they are very unimaginative within names.
Dr G 33:39 This is true. So I mean, time is is a possibility. It’s within the remit of like well known Roman praenomens. But Appius Claudius makes sense as if he is the eldest son of Appius Claudius, the decemvir.
Dr Rad 33:53 Exactly.
Dr G 33:54 Yes. You always just call your kid your name, and hope for the best.
Dr Rad 33:58 And if we know anything about Appius Claudius the decemvir, it is that he is an egomaniac. So I think
Dr G 34:07 Maybe all of his sons are called Appius Claudius.
Dr Rad 34:10 I wouldn’t put it past him, Dr G.
Dr G 34:11 Appius Claudius Secondo?
Dr Rad 34:14 Yeah, I think it makes sense. The name would be Appius.
Dr G 34:19 And that’s pretty much it. Diodorus Siculus does an alright, job on a couple of other names. Okay, and also gets another one slightly wrong, so it doesn’t really merit going into it.
Dr Rad 34:31 All right. Okay. Well, 424 begins with Livy telling me that once again, there are no issues within the city of Rome and no walls to be fought outside of the city. Which makes me wonder, Dr. G, is Rome losing its edge?
Dr G 34:50 Or is Dionysius not writing about things he’s not missing? It’s just that nothing happens. So he doesn’t say anything.
Dr Rad 34:56 You know what? That’s actually a very intelligent suggestion.
Dr G 35:01 Okay, wait a minute, I have a new topic I could write about
Dr Rad 35:04 You do. Alright, so the only thing that’s really happening is a nice thing. It just goes to show how little this happens. I feel really uncomfortable talking about this because it’s just so rare that we record something nice. History recording only the bad stuff since the BCEs.
Dr G 35:23 I’m really intrigued, what nice thing has been recorded?
Dr Rad 35:26 There are some games happening. Dr. G.
Dr G 35:28 Oh, well, they’re not very nice once you delve into them. I mean…
Dr Rad 35:32 Well, I mean, for the Romans they’re nice.
Dr G 35:34 I mean, yeah, but it’s like killing animals. It’s not my cup of tea watching people die.
Dr Rad 35:41 At this point in time, at this point in time, gladiators another thing? I don’t think
Dr G 35:47 No, no. But the what kind of games are they playing?
Dr Rad 35:51 Well, he hasn’t given me an itemized list. There’s no ferris wheel if that’s what you’re wondering. Yeah. So basically,
Dr G 35:58 There’s a boat show on the Tiber.
Dr Rad 36:00 It’s a fulfillment of a promise, Dr G. There had previously been games vowed during the war and the military tribunes are just fulfilling that promise. So lots of neighboring people from the area are included. Okay. They’ve gotten over the whole, you know, Sabine abduction thing.
Dr G 36:20 It sounds to me like it’s going to have some chariot racing. That would make sense.
Dr Rad 36:24 yeah. And look, the Romans are determined to go all out. They want to be the hosts with the most.
Dr G 36:29 I said that last time, and we all saw what happened to the Sabine women…
Dr Rad 36:33 But this time, they really mean it. They’re really laying it on thick. They want to be the most courteous game givers in the whole of their little limited area.
Dr G 36:42 Everybody come?
Dr Rad 36:43 Yeah. Now, I’m going to say the T word. It’s time to talk about some tribunes.
Dr G 36:49 Oh, dear.
Dr Rad 36:50 Yeah. That’s right. So plebeian tribunes, they decide games. Perfect time to cause trouble.
Dr G 36:58 Something does happen in this year
Dr Rad 37:00 Well Livy says it starts out that way, which makes sense, because it’s continuation from the previous year, which was really boring.
Dr G 37:06 Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. All right. I’ll strap myself back in again.
Dr Rad 37:09 And maybe the tribunes are also thinking the same thing I am, which is that Rome is losing its edge. You gotta like shake things up a little bit. We’re gonna cause some chaos. Yeah. All right. So they start making some speeches, which are clearly designed to rile people up. Okay. They’re saying they’re really angry with the people of Rome, because it seems like they adore the men that the attributes of the plebs themselves despise. And I presume that they’re meaning the patricians? Yeah, it would make sense.
Dr G 37:43 Yes. I hate those guys.
Dr Rad 37:45 Exactly. And they’re like, people are not rising up against these aristocrats.
Dr G 37:52 But I love a good chariot race. Can I do this revolution later?
Dr Rad 37:56 No, we can’t. Shut up, Timmy. They’re basically saying, Why aren’t you guys seizing opportunities? You aren’t running for military tribune with the consular power. What is going on? Like you’re allowed to, you’re allowed to What? What? They’re losing their mind.
Dr G 38:20 It looks like a tough job. You know, I’ve got I got this family to feed and this farm situation of I can’t spend a year away from the harvest. You know, it’s going to be no man. No.
Dr Rad 38:33 So the tribunes point out that look, if this is the way that you’re going to behave, then you have no right to complain anymore, that people aren’t working hard on your behalf to try and make your lives a little bit better.
Dr G 38:49 That’s it. We got to get together and protest. I definitely want to keep complaining. Yeah,
Dr Rad 38:53 they’re like, look, we don’t like being tribune of the plebs is a great gig. You ungrateful plebeians. It’s friggin hard work. And it’s super dangerous. And for what? What am I doing this for? There’s no reward for being tribune of the plebs. Always we get is patricians hating us and targeting us. And that’s hardly a reward if you guys aren’t even going to use the rights that we have worked so hard to procure for you.
Dr G 39:29 Wow. I mean, it does sound like Livy is making the tribunate sound like a pretty lame place to be.
Dr Rad 39:36 Exactly. And this is where the article I was talking about comes in again, because it points out that if we actually think that maybe there were no official senior magistracies like consul or preator or military tribute with consular power, then potentially tribune of the plebs was actually a relatively influential position, but, as you have heard, later we don’t really know what. But it’s certainly different to the other major cities which will develop in that they have very clear guidelines about this is the power that you have to achieve these goals.
Dr G 40:16 Yeah.
Dr Rad 40:16 And that’s your area. tribune of the plebs is very much more flexible. And it really is about the fact that the people seem to have originally taken this oath that they are going to protect you.
Dr G 40:25 Yeah, we want some representation. And it’s really shaped by the people in the role. So really, if these tribune of the plebs are a little bit upset about how that is going for them, I suggest they do something.
Dr Rad 40:25 Well, and this is a thing. This is potentially how the tribune of the plebs becomes more powerful, because the more that they have, the more that they can sort of play fast and loose with the fact that they can’t be killed. Technically, I mean, like they can, obviously, but
Dr G 40:53 I’m immortal.
Dr Rad 41:00 Technically, obviously, unless somebody wants to get themselves into a whole lot of trouble, they can’t be killed. And they only hang out in the city. So protection stance. Force field activate: the pomerium is up.
Dr G 41:14 I don’t want to get into a religious do-do so. I’m gonna let you live.
Dr Rad 41:18 Yeah. So the more that they can exploit that, the more that they can push their position into interesting developments, which might explain why they eventually get veto power and not just veto power over like each other, but like, veto power. I do love this. Actually, this is not for much later, but I just have to say it now. I’ll say it again later. I didn’t realize that when tribunes were first allowed to attend Senate meetings so that they could use their veto power. They initially weren’t allowed to actually be in the room. They had to sit outside and shout “Veto!”.
Dr G 41:54 Yeah, like those moments where like, you have Agrippina behind a curtain? Yeah. Really. Like I’m listening. I’m listening.
Dr Rad 42:00 But even more hilarious that they’re actually like, everyone knows they’re there. Yeah.
Dr G 42:03 They’re expecting them to stand outside and yell in “veto!”.
Dr Rad 42:08 We’re not going to do that
Dr G 42:08 Stop that!
Dr Rad 42:09 Stop that right now. Yeah. So anyway, that was just that was a total another tangent. But it is interesting to think about the fact that potentially these people, you know, well, this makes sense. And again, it’s just like that classic thing that they set up here of these senior magistrates, who apparently so important for legislation and that kind of stuff. And like, are they? Are they the people doing this? I don’t know. But anyway, anywho. So they say, Look, guys, it is time, it is time to see how the state will fare if a poor ban actually hold a magistracy for GOD’S SAKE like, the patricians sold us when we pushed for this, that no, no, you can’t do it, you don’t have the auspicium to carry out all the duties that come with the role. And even though we fought for you to have exactly such a role, you’re not taking it up. And therefore it kind of seems like maybe two beings can’t do it. So we have to end it and end it now. We must have a plane isn’t going to take a freaking miracle to find a plebeian who can hold military tribune and with consular power. I think not! We need someone with courage and energy, who’s going to revitalize the institution.
Dr G 43:30 That’s very Churchillian of you. But I don’t know that they’re going to get their wish in this year in particular, or next year for that matter. In fact, I don’t think this is going to I don’t think they’re going to achieve this for years.
Dr Rad 43:42 Well, I kind of like the way that Livy says that. Finally, like a decade or two, of being relentlessly nagged by the attributes of the plebs. Apparently, it’s only now that the plebeians really start to register.
Dr G 43:59 Me. Oh, I see what you’re saying. You. So what you meant back then, was that I could I could go for the role. Yes. What you were saying? Oh, when you first said that’s not how I heard it, you know?
Dr Rad 44:16 But to be fair, to be fair, when he says is that basically when they first got the option to run for military tribute with consular power, they felt okay about it, because for beings have obviously shown over the years that they’re capable of leading, usually in a military sense. So we’ve had some standout for being soldiers, commanders, that sort of thing. Well, sorry. Take that back, not command. We’ve had some outstanding soldiers
Dr G 44:42 We have: Dentatus.
Dr Rad 44:44 True, exactly what a man who could forget. Yeah. So we’ve had those sorts of people so clearly, they can do that. We’ve also had many plebeians who are honorable, who are courageous people, those sorts of people did try and run office when it was first a possibility, but they were bullied, Dr. G…
Dr G 45:06 By who?
Dr Rad 45:07 Bullied so hard by the patricians that they gave up and they’d rather be embarrassed and not run for office. Then try at all. So there.
Dr G 45:17 Wow, that is not the Roman spirit.
Dr Rad 45:20 It really isn’t. It actually sounds extremely high school to me. It does, yeah, that you’re gonna let you know, let these beliefs push you around and tell you what you can and cannot do. But also I think Tina Fey would have something to say about that.
Dr G 45:34 Are you going to just give up at the first hurdle? Of course, the patricians hate you. They’ve always hated you. That’s why they patricians.
Dr Rad 45:42 Well, look, the tribune of the plebs are so fed up with this situation that they’re like, You know what? Maybe we should even remove the option.
Dr G 45:54 Oh, no, no, no, no winding back. No, no, no, no,
Dr Rad 46:00 Because it would be better to not actually have the option that’s like not being used, then have it? And no one go for it. Because that’s just embarrassing.
Dr G 46:11 Excuse me? Yeah. What, what if somebody wants to go for it just like?
Dr Rad 46:16 It’s making, it’s making them all look bad.
Dr G 46:18 It’s not, it’s just, you know, it’s only embarrassing because they’ve decided they’re embarrassed about it. I need to go back in time and have a stern chat with these people.
Dr Rad 46:29 The tribunes are feeling pretty bad about it. So I think you just have to go with their feelings, Dr G.. And you know, this is how they’re feeling about it. Luckily, though, the plebeians say, You know what, yes, we will run for office, we absolutely will take you up on that offer. And they promise all the standard things that any Italian citizen could ever want. And that is placing attacks on landowners.
Dr G 46:57 Nice.
Dr Rad 46:57 Yeah. And using that money to pay for soldiers.
Dr G 47:01 Nice.
Dr Rad 47:02 Yep. Because, of course, who’s mostly the rank and file?
Dr G 47:05 The plebeians?
Dr Rad 47:07 Yeah, exactly. It’d be nice if we didn’t have to pay for our own kit every time. Yeah. And then there also seems to be that age old issue, Dr. G, of land, and land allotment?
Dr G 47:18 Ah, redistribution of the property?
Dr Rad 47:21 Yep. Yep, exactly. So I think it will shock nobody for me to say that these policies sound extremely Gracchan in nature and therefore, late Republican. However, that’s not to say that they’re not also fair for the early republic, just you know, a little suspicious.
Dr G 47:41 The land is pretty important. I think. Land is capital. Yeah. And so you could do a Marxist reading of this as well. Owning the land and redistributing the land. Yeah. Is seizing the means of production? Yeah. Because that’s how you go the green in the first place? Sure. Yeah. That you need to do anything.
Dr Rad 48:01 Yeah, this is true. This is true. Yeah. So you know, maybe that is what they went for. But they’re at least giving it a go, whether their policies are stolen from a later century or not.
Dr G 48:13 I see. I see. And is this the year? This is it? Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I really have nothing to add, in terms of the narrative, because I mean, one, you’ve done a great job of conveying the narrative to me my end, it is clear that, you know, there are some tensions that are being very much rejected at this point into this period. And fair enough. And because I lack so much source material, what I did instead was I was like, Well, where does Rome really sit? In this moment of time, because it’s been a Republic for, you know, a wee while now. And
Dr Rad 48:49 We’re coming up to 100 years.
Dr G 48:51 Yeah, we’re nearly there. So it’s time to celebrate and have a bit of a birthday. And one of the things that has come up with this conflict with Veii and Fidenae is that Rome does have some colonies. So there’s like little outposts here and there that are considered to be Roman. And we’ve come across this before. We’ve seen it with Ardea as well, in particular. And so I went through and you know, Cornell was great, provided me a list of the places that Rome is said to have colonized early on. So Fidenae quite early, a place called Signia, Circeii, Cora, Pomezia, Velitrae, Norba, Antium, and Ardea. So we’re like, we’re up to like maybe like nine or 10 different areas, which by the time that we’re in, in this 424, period, right, also have a Roman population of sorts. So it’s not just the city of Rome, it’s starting to expand out they’ve got a foothold in some different places. Losing something like Fidenae is a problem, not just because of its strategic value, but because of the message it sends to those other areas that they’ve colonized, you know, or well, if one can successfully break away, well, maybe some more could break away as well, because it sets up this kind of buffer zone around Rome itself, that gets harder to for an enemy to get close to the city. And so I’m interested in the way that Rome is shifting gradually, slowly in their understanding of themselves as not just being about the city, but being about a state that expands beyond that. And they’re starting to grow out. And we’ve been starting to see it for a little while. But that’s kind of the lay of the land where we’re at at the moment.
Dr Rad 50:41 You know what, I know that that’s probably not too bad. But I’m actually surprised it’s not more. I guess it’s because so many of the wars we’ve been talking about. They are defensive more than anything,
Dr G 50:53 And they’re mostly inconclusive, and somebody steals the booty one year, somebody steals back the booty the next year. It’s not like territorial acquisition
Dr Rad 51:02 Second-hand arse.
Dr G 51:05 Well, you know, I mean, if I have to win something, better that than nothing.
Dr Rad 51:11 No, thank you that geography is never my strong point. So I do appreciate it when others provide a geographical context for me.
Dr G 51:21 Look, I’m sorry to say that we don’t know where a lot of these are necessarily. I mean, some we do we have to see it and not now they can’t be that far away. I don’t think they’re far away now. So I actually think this is probably a good place to wrap up this episode, indeed.
Dr Rad 51:35 So we got tribunes causing issues as they are want to do.
Dr G 51:41 They really just want the best for the plebs. I think and, you know, don’t we all?
Dr Rad 51:45 Look, I do. You know, what, sometimes it takes, you know, authority figures getting really angry with you and saying, Look, you’re not living up to my expectations. Sometimes, you know, it’s I’m here, but you need to hear it. But also I believe in you exactly. Know what you can do it guys. Yeah, exactly. Take that power running for office. It’s great. All right, deputy. That means that it’s time for the Partial Pick.
Dr G 52:13 [Screeching bird sound]. We’ve had a listener complaint about my impression of an eagle, for which I apologize, but will continue to do anyway.
Dr Rad 52:24 I don’t know how cause I’ve been cutting you out and putting in the actual sound effect for episodes.
Dr G 52:28 Oh. My. God.
Dr Rad 52:32 We haven’t had you doing the eagle in a really long time.
Dr G 52:36 I cannot believe that my mastery has been cut out. Well, clearly, when I edit the episodes I leave myself in. So I apologize to everybody. That’s my editorial decision.
You can add that to the Partial Historians bingo game. Is Dr. G’s eagle imitation cut out or is it in? Because you can tell who edited an episode.
That will be the giveaway. Yeah. Because obviously I’m an artiste. And I leave my eagle sound effect in, thank you very much.
Dr Rad 53:07 Look I’m mindful of the fact that Igor needs his regular income from appearing on our show.
Dr G 53:12 Oh, well, yeah.
Dr Rad 53:14 Do you really want to put an eagle out of work? Or whatever? Check whatever bird we’re using as the sound effect.
Dr G 53:19 Yeah, it’s not an eagle. Apologies on that front as well. All right, the Partial Pick. Yeah, Rome has the possibility of winning 50 Golden Eagles. Let’s see if they can do it. There’s five categories. out of 10 each.
Dr Rad 53:35 Yeah.
Dr G 53:36 Military clout?
Dr Rad 53:38 No.
Dr G 53:40 In a year where nothing happened. Yeah.
Dr Rad 53:42 Amazing how they’ve managed to let that one slip through their fingers.
Dr G 53:45 Yeah 425, 424. I mean, they’re recovering from like, what, what appears to be a 10 year plus warfare
Dr Rad 53:51 Excuses. Excuse other people part from the Etruscans to fight?
Dr G 53:55 Wow. Probably tired. All right. So with zero Yeah, I agree. Diplomacy?
Dr Rad 54:02 Well, okay. There are two truces. Hmm, we’ve got the very lengthy one with a entirely undeserved that should keep him out of trouble. Yeah. And then we got the shorter one with the Aequians. Which I feel like the Romans didn’t really want to give it in the first place. But they did.
Dr G 54:19 I see.
Dr Rad 54:21 So I don’t know what that is maybe like three?
Dr G 54:24 Well, maybe even a five
Dr Rad 54:27 Five is way too generous.
Dr G 54:29 Hear me out. Okay. I’ll give you my rationale. And then you can disagree.
Dr Rad 54:33 All right.
Dr G 54:34 Five, because they have been a thorn in the side of Rome for nigh on 10 plus years. As far as our narrative sources are concerned.
Dr Rad 54:42 Nice use of “nigh on”
Dr G 54:45 And the Aequians are considered one of Rome’s fundamental enemies. And they’ve managed to like tie things up with the Volscii for now. So getting the Aequians on board with a treaty as well is super beneficial. Because this means that three of Rome’s greatest enemies in this time period are now apparently technically locked into a truce of some kind.
Dr Rad 55:11 I believe when I said look, I’ll go as high as a four.
Dr G 55:16 Oh, wow. Wow. All right four it is. Expansion?
Dr Rad 55:22 No.
Dr G 55:25 Virtus?
Dr Rad 55:25 Oh wait, actually sorry. Rewind diplomacy – the game – so the games counts as diplomacy like inviting around from the neighborhood area.
Dr G 55:25 I guess it depends on whether you steal their women or not.
Dr Rad 55:36 They didn’t. They were extremely polite.
Dr G 55:38 Well, that put that up to five.
Dr Rad 55:40 Yeah. Okay. Five.
Dr G 55:45 Expansion, so no, yeah, that wasn’t what we were rewarding, so virtus?
Dr Rad 55:51 No, I don’t think there’s anything.
Dr G 55:54 I mean, if you have to bully the plebs into like taking up power, I don’t know if that’s a virtus thing.
Dr Rad 55:58 That’s been happening for ages.
Dr G 56:01 And Citizen Score?
Dr Rad 56:02 Okay. Now, whilst attributes very cranky and not pleased with the plebeians. The end result does seem to be plebeians trying to get a senior magistracy that may or may not exist.
Dr G 56:19 Well, I mean, that does sound like a great outcome.
Dr Rad 56:23 Yeah. But you know, like, if I if we go with what Livy says, which I generally do, then,
Dr G 56:29 And I have no choice but to at this stage
Dr Rad 56:32 Your on my ride. So in that case, yeah. I mean, it’s not too bad.
Dr G 56:39 Look, it’s not I don’t think it’s bad at all that we’ve got no wars. Yeah. There’s all this diplomacy means that everyone gets to stay home.
Dr Rad 56:46 Yeah
Dr G 56:47 They got games. They’re not dying.
Dr Rad 56:49 No.
Dr G 56:50 And really, yeah. All anybody wants them to do is to take and seize the power that the law says that they’re allowed to have.
Dr Rad 56:57 Yeah. And they are taking them up on that. So I guess it’s time to be a citizen. Really? Yeah. Okay, so maybe like a fine. Well, I mean, come on. We don’t want to go too crazy.
Dr G 57:08 Yeah, they aren’t having the best time. They haven’t gotten the land reallotment, have they?
Dr Rad 57:12 Yeah, I was gonna say this is all very it’s they’re just running for office. I haven’t got it yet. Yeah. So five, five, okay, five minutes. That means Dr. G, 10 golden eagles, which I was not anticipating any, because there really wasn’t a hell of a lot going on in 425 and 424 BCE.
Dr G 57:33 Ten out of 50. Though that’s a fail.
Dr Rad 57:35 Well, yeah, but, let’s face it. We’ve had worse years we have and this was actually
Dr G 57:40 This was two years.
Dr Rad 57:41 It’s really
Dr G 57:43 Five for each year.
Dr Rad 57:44 Yeah.
Dr G 57:45 Oh, well. Well, Rome, you tried,
Dr Rad 57:48 But they can’t all be winners, you know, particularly not in the fifth century BCE.
Dr G 57:53 Well, it has been a very much a pleasure. sit down chat with you,
Dr Rad 57:57 indeed it has.
Dr G 58:00 Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. Dr. Rad and myself thank you so much for listening, and supporting our work and enjoying this ride through Roman history with us. We’d like to send our special thanks to the following patrons. Roger, Steve, Maria, Anthony, Ryan, Fredrik, Graham, Daniel, Jonathan, Miki, Kara, Hillary, and Lucas. Some of these people started supporting us very recently, some over the course of the last year. And for all of them, we offer our huge things. So I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but maybe our microphones have improved recently. That is down to you guys. It really is. So thank you so much, and we’ll catch you again soon.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Robe (1953)
Apr 06, 2023
The Robe (1953) is a cinematic classic of Golden Age Hollywood. With its mix of ancient Rome and early Christianity, it was a winner with audiences around the globe. In this special episode, we tap into Dr Rad’s expertise in reception in film and come to grips with the power of The Robe!
Special Episode – The Robe
A Challenging Context
It was tricky to deal with modern political issues in this era of Hollywood under the influence of HUAC (the House Un-American Activities Committee). For the makers of The Robe, which explicitly dealt with the life of Jesus under the Romans, there were additional challenges due to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. Returning to the Old Testament was often a safer bet for Hollywood films.
The rights to The Robe were initially purchased by RKO, before finally being canceled in 1948. It found a new home at 20th Century Fox. The fact that The Robe was in production for a long time has raised some interesting questions about the impact of historical context.
The script was initially written by Albert Maltz, one of the infamous Hollywood Ten. The original script does seem to touch on blacklist themes. In Caligula’s original speech at the end of the film he refers to the “sedition” of the Christians and Marcellus has to deny that he is involved in a conspiracy to overthrow the state. This sounds eerily close to the experience of Hollywood Communists, who were generally not radicals trying to seize control of the government. There were also more references to the naming of names in Maltz’s version of The Robe…
People protesting in favour of the Hollywood Ten. Source: Encyclopaedia Britannica.
HUAC and The Robe
But HUAC lay in his future, as Maltz only worked on this project from 1942-1946. As Smith (2005) has highlighted, while Maltz could not have worked HUAC references into the script before his HUAC experiences, it is possible that the tension over Communism still shaped his draft. There were moves against Communism before the Second Red Scare that swept America in the late 1940s and 1950s, such as the actions of the Tenney Committee in the early 1940s, or the foundation of the right-wing Motion Picture Alliance for American Ideals.
Or perhaps Maltz was more focused on providing a critique of Italian fascism, given the backdrop of World War II? Maltz wrote Cloak and Dagger (1947) immediately after The Robe, which definitely took aim at Italian fascism, whilst exalting the resistance from the Communists. He would also write Crossfire (1947), a film that tackled issues of anti-Semitism within the USA.
Film poster for Cloak and Dagger (1947)
Is it possible that the next screenwriter to work on The Robe worked in some sick burns? Phillip Dunne followed Maltz and would eventually receive sole credit for the film, thanks to the blacklist. He was known to be a liberal and helped to establish the Committee for the First Amendment. This group formed in reaction to the HUAC hearings in 1947. Fellow members included other Hollywood luminaries such as William Wyler, Lucille Ball, Lauren Bacall, Bette Davis and Dorothy Daindridge.
However, Dunne was not a Communist; quite the opposite. He may have intended The Robe to be a veiled criticism of HUAC, but he may also have seen the repression of the Romans as being akin to Stalin and the Communist regime.
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to the Partial Historians, we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr Rad 1:03 Welcome to a special episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:10 And I am a somewhat healthy, Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:15 I know this is true dedication, Patreons, Dr G has been suffering from the vid.
Dr G 1:22 I’ve been on my deathbed. But I’ve bounced back. Thank goodness.
Dr Rad 1:27 It was Rome that calls you for and said live live another day.
Dr G 1:33 And one must always follow the commands of Rome. And here I am. as ever.
Dr Rad 1:39 Well, I suppose luckily, or unluckily. I’m not sure. We’re not doing our normal narrative today. But instead, we’re taking a journey into Hollywood land, which could be good for a sick person, or maybe not.
Dr G 1:54 I look, I think it’s gonna be it’s gonna be good. I’m excited for this golden era. Hollywood is one of my favorite times in Hollywood.
Dr Rad 2:03 We all love it. We all adore it. So let’s get into this special episode where we get to talk all about The Robe 1953.
Dr G 2:50 What a film. I mean, I think the best thing about it is Richard Burton.
Dr Rad 2:54 Definitely let’s let’s give a bit of a cast rundown. So in typical Partial Historians fashion, we’re doing this slightly backwards in that we looked at the sequel first. But that was only for our Patreon. So for everybody else, we’re just doing The Robe. So first of all, we have Richard Burton playing the lead male character Marcellus Gallio.
Dr G 3:19 A fine specimen of a young Roman if I ever saw one.
Dr Rad 3:21 Indeed. And then we have my favorite Jean Simmons playing the lead female part, Diana, I think she’s actually really good in this role. Yeah, well, you know, she’s got that pure beauty about her. She looks very innocent.
Dr G 3:39 She does.
Dr Rad 3:39 Yeah. And then, of course, we’ve got the hero of our Patreon bonus episode Demetrius and the Gladiators, because, of course, being a sequel, he’s in this one too big to mature, playing Demetrius,
Dr G 3:53 And he does look mature, doesn’t he?
Dr Rad 3:57 He does have a mature look about him. But lest we forget, he retired at 44. So I guess he was in his 30s at this point in time.
Dr G 4:04 Oh, wow.
Dr Rad 4:06 And then we have Michael Rennie playing St. Peter.
Dr G 4:11 Yeah, I feel like that was a bit of a that’s a bit of a throw into the sequel as well, isn’t it?
Dr Rad 4:18 I believe so. I think he was in both. Yeah, definitely. I mean, they knew they were filming both when they started, as I discovered last time. And then we have Jay Robinson playing Caligula.
Dr G 4:30 Hmm. Yeah. We’ll come back to that one.
Dr Rad 4:33 Yeah. And then I think the main ones that we have to deal with there are major characters. Yeah, I think that kind of covers it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So The Robe 1953 is a big film in many ways. Not only is an epic from the age of epics, the Golden Age of Hollywood epics, but it also has won some fame for some of the other milestones that are associated with this film. Now, just to give us an idea of exactly how big a smash it was, it costs a smidgen over $4 million to make. And, yeah, it took in $17 million in the US a market and $36 million world wide.
Dr G 5:25 Okay, so this was a profit making engine?
Dr Rad 5:29 Well, yeah, I mean, it has a cycle that’s going to tell something
Dr G 5:35 built in, apparently, as well. So yeah,
Dr Rad 5:37 I do like this detail, though, that some of the ticket sales would have been to teachers who were pressed into going to see this movie for their students, or with their students, maybe?
Dr G 5:50 Yeah, goodness. I mean, that kind of made up the bulk of sales, surely.
Dr Rad 5:56 Anyway, so let’s talk a little bit about this ethic, Dr. G. So what were your initial impressions? I’m dying to know,
Dr G 6:03 Oh, look, I think longtime listeners of this show will be well aware that I tend to classify myself as a pagan, and my position has not changed. As a result of watching the Rome, it did feel like very much that they were utilizing Roman history as a vehicle for getting to the Christian story. And I’m not a fan of that, to be honest. Christianity is not huge. In this initial face, like this is set sort of right at the moment of the passing of the Messiah.
Dr Rad 6:39 Jesus is alive in this film. That tells us something. Yeah,
Dr G 6:43 Jesus starts alive in this film. Yeah, he doesn’t stay alive. So that gives us almost everything we need to know about what moment in history we’re in. But the sense in which there is a really strong Christianizing moment that comes over all of the players who’ve been closely associated with that moment of Jesus’s death is really interesting. Yeah, and I would say, anachronistic.
Dr Rad 7:09 For sure. I mean, it’s historically accurate to place Jesus’s life in his time period. So the time period we’re talking about is the tail end of the reign of Tiberius, aka the best period ever. And we then end up going into some of calculus, rain as well. And calculus, definitely around this whole movie. He’s not, you know, off to the side, and Tiberius is a circle regular, I think, is definitely the main Roman imperial character that we get to know over the course of this film. And that is historical. As far as we can tell, Jesus was indeed around in the latter half of Tiberius, his reign. So anyway, the general setting for Jesus’s lifetime, and when he starts to become a problem for Rome, all is accurate. And so we’ve got our major players, you know, being where they should be. But as you say, this is a classic Hollywood epic in that in order for you to have a good guy and a bad guy, you know, someone to root for and someone to despise while still enjoying the things that they get up to. It’s pretty normal for Hollywood to go to a Christians versus Romans storyline, or at least Christians slash Jewish people. Question Mark versus Romans?
Dr G 8:30 Yeah. And this leads us into some like really interesting directorial choices, or maybe casting decisions as well, because the Romans quintessentially played by the English. So they’ve got that very sort of RP accent going on. Yeah, but then the people of Palestine appear to be American. Where, I mean, it’s something
Dr Rad 8:53 But I think that that actually does keep into the whole accent divide. Because I think it’s kind of meant to be the people who are on the side, that you’re meant to be rooting for generally American.
Dr G 9:06 Hmm. So Hollywood would want you to believe.
Dr Rad 9:09 Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s not. It’s not uncommon for the movies of this era to have that accent divided so that it’s super clear, just in case you were thinking of rooting for the Romans that were crucifying Jesus, just in case you had a moment where you thought maybe I’m on their side. They go for the accent just to make it very clear.
Dr G 9:30 That and the way that they decide to portray particular were Romans. Now, Caligula, as we know, doesn’t have heaps of redeeming features, ultimately, and the Romans themselves get pretty jack of them very quickly, they do. So this is what what is about to follow is not the saving of Caligula. Now, when I say I think he might have been overplayed a little bit in this film.
Dr Rad 9:59 Oh, Though I have to admit, though, I kind of enjoy the guy who played here. And he does have the kind of voice that really grates on you in a way that makes you think, yeah, I could assassinate this guy after a few years. I think I’d be annoyed enough.
Dr G 10:15 He is frustratingly inept in his presentation, and because we don’t get a good read on motivation from Caligula, and because it just feels like he’s being played for the sort of the hysterical, maniacal, power driven figure that is portrayed as in this film. It makes him feel a little bit unbelievable, whilst also holding down the position as the bad guy.
Dr Rad 10:46 Yeah, fair enough. Well, before we get too much further into Ahala, we probably should say something about the general storyline of this film. So why don’t you tell us about the the story of Digi
Dr G 10:57 Okay, all right. Well, I mean, it starts off great opening scene. It seems like we’re in the Roman Forum. Everyone’s having a good time. It’s clearly slave-buying season. Not that anybody should be excited about that.
Dr Rad 11:11 I say Why does it not slave-buying season in Rome?
Dr G 11:14 It seems to b a particularly busy time at the moment. And this sets up the few really important dynamics. It allows us to see Marcellus re-meeting his childhood sweetheart, Diana, they haven’t seen each other for many years. So that sets up that relationship. We learn about Diana’s connection as a ward of Tiberius to calendula, potentially as a love interest for him. But we also learn about myself versus ongoing tension with Caligula as well apparently those two don’t get along. And then we have this sort of moment with the slave market, which introduces us to Demetrius as well, who is perhaps the most stoic character in this whole
Dr Rad 12:00 Oh, my God, yes.
Dr G 12:01 So stoic, and this guy kind of just accepts his fate as it is, doesn’t seem to fight one way or the other. But does seem to be motivated by an internal set of principles. And for whatever reason, Demetrius ends up coming to the attention of both Marcellus and Caligula during this slave sail. And this becomes an important point because it’s this moment. And this tension between Marcellus and Caligula, which turns Demetrius is fate. So you technically gets freed in a slave auction through being purchased at such a high price for Marcellus to sort of jab coelicolor A little bit. But because Demetrius feels that this isn’t appropriate to be bought at such a high price just to be set free, he decides to become the manservant of Marcellus anyway. So these two are now bound up together in what appears to be a kind of odd duo, because my Seles then goes on to be like, let’s be friends, if we’re going to hang out together like this. Demetrius is, like, we are not friends. I really owe you. It’s different.
Dr Rad 13:15 I do like the pairing, though. I mean, Burton’s got the voice and Mature’s got this shoulder.
Dr G 13:22 Yeah, so these two end up on adventures together, which are all bound up with calendula in particular ways Caligula is annoyed at Marcellus for this whole debacle in the slave market. So he sends him to Palestine as a bit of a punishment. While he’s there, he ends up in a situation with Pontius Pilate, so that’s good news. Everybody likes it when Pontius Pilate enters the enters the scene, Pontius Pilate sort of commands myself is to be in charge with the crucifixion of Jesus, which is awkward, but also at the same time has a Lady Macbeth moment, which is kind of beautiful, where he’s washing his hands, and he’s like, I need to wash my hands. And he’s slaves like you just wash your hands. Yeah, like the bloods invisible but he’s having trouble guys. He’s ordered the death of Jesus. Then we have some really interesting moments in Palestine, one of which is this trading of the robe. So pivotal to this entire film, it would seem is that we don’t see Jesus very much. We don’t really see his face. We sometimes hear his voice, but we he’s a mysterious figure who seems to have an effect on Demetrius straightaway. When he is on the cross, the robe that he had been wearing has been laid at the bottom of it. One of the Roman soldiers picks it up and it’s like that. We could throw this into the old gambling table. Let’s when the robe of Jesus and Marcellus wins it, but is then sort of overcome when he tries to put it on himself when it’s raining and he wants To protect himself it seems like it has a huge negative effect on him like almost like burns his skin or something. Anyway, it’s it’s horrifying to him and Demetrius just wanders off with the robe in the end does like I’ll take that.
Dr Rad 15:14 But he does have that amazing scene because there’s all that storm happening around them and I must have been I think this is probably one of Victor Mature’s finest moments on screen, where he sort of screams and Richard Burton’s face as he’s, you know, dealing with the effects of the robe and all of that kind of stuff. And he does that whole “murderers, thieves, jungle animals. Masters of the world you call yourselves. I’m curse on you. I curse on your empire.” Mwahahahaha
Dr G 15:51 Lightning strikes in the background and this thunder?
Dr Rad 15:54 Yeah, it’s great. Yeah, the evil laughter was my addition, I should say.
Dr G 16:00 Very intense moment. And Demetrius ends up walking off with the robe, completely unharmed by it, because clearly it’s there’s a connection between his faith and one’s capacity to hold this garment. Sacred as it is. Marcellus ends up back in Rome and seen Tiberius on the Isle of Capri being like what I do, I’ve got this madness. And the Romans in the wisdom decide that the road must be cursed, which is for the Romans had excellent choice really. It’s like that would explain it. So Marcellus is given an imperial commission to destroy this robe. And it’s like, use whatever means you need to.
Dr Rad 16:45 So this is great guys, how many people might have tried it on by now? Yeah,
Dr G 16:48 it’s a disaster. We’ve got to find it as soon as possible.
Dr Rad 16:52 If anybody finds out about this garment, it’s going to be a PR nightmare.
Dr G 16:56 That’s basically what Tiberius says, when when everybody leaves. And he’s like, this is the worst thing that has ever happened in my entire rule.
Dr Rad 17:03 And I’ve had some stuff happen.
Dr G 17:06 We must deal with this instantly.
Dr Rad 17:08 I mean, my brother died, I had to divorce the wife that I loved. I then had to marry a woman I hated the child that we had died, then both my natural son and my adopted son birthday, that was pretty bad. But this this robe. Okay.
Dr G 17:25 It is up there. Yeah. So Marcellus finds himself back in Palestine, because that’s where he last saw Demetrius with the robe. It is like, Well, I’m gonna go back to the source that look for more clues. And this leads to a whole bunch of unfoldings. There’s storytelling things. There’s this slow journey of Marcellus from like quintessential Roman, to like, somebody, embodied in faith, very dedicated Christian, very dedicated across this journey. Yeah, he meets some villagers who really shift his perspective on things. He finds Demetrius again. And all of this sort of nourishes his flourishing belief. So by the time he does get back to Rome, he’s now committed to the cause. And he also hasn’t told anybody that he’s back for ages as well. So
Dr Rad 18:16 Well, yeah, he’s got he’s got new friends now, the Christians. And so Peter,
Dr G 18:20 yeah. And you know, when Diana finds out about this, because she’s been waiting for him this whole time, that he’s hidden, his return from her. She’s not happy about that, and she is that she demands to be taken to him. And that’s when we find out that the Christians are living in the catacombs. Yes. Which, which is awkward, because they should not really exist. Yeah.
Dr Rad 18:47 Minor details, minor details. Yeah,
Dr G 18:50 Look, I was I was all fine for them to just be underground caves, like, Rome is literally riddled with natural springs and cave systems anyway, it’s completely, completely fine and legitimate, but they do refer to them as catacombs. And I was like, guys, you know, that people would have have to be buried in them for them to be catacombs. And the people that we know are buried in the catacombs are. And you guys are the first Christians in Rome. So
Dr Rad 19:17 There’s been a lot of persecution already.
Dr G 19:21 So much, so much persecution already. Anyway, as it turns out, one of the things it’s getting more complicated as the film goes on, but Demetrius has been captured and the Christians have to save him, cuz he’s been tortured for information. Yeah, yeah. And calendula has Demetrius in his grass. Yeah. And is turning the screw as it were. So the Christians all gather together and they managed to pull off a very effective saving of Demetrius and they hide him weirdly at Marcellus his dad’s house. Yeah, although,
Dr Rad 19:57 I was going to say it’s, I like the I like the infiltration because they use myself as a mole. You know, he’s got the clothes, he’s got the accent, he can penetrate into the palace itself in order to rescue Demetrius, which I did appreciate,
Dr G 20:14 Although it is a concern to me that throughout this entire film, Marcellus has been known consistently as the Tribune. So he’s pretty low down on the cursus honorum. And he’s definitely not progressing any higher, because for him after this film, but the thing is that I feel like given the nature of the events, we’ve had two trips to Palestine, at least in the course of this film, that we are looking at over a year. Oh, it’s way more in terms of time. Yeah. And as a magistrate holding the tribuncianship, it seems very unlikely that Marcellus would continue to be attributed over the whole course of this film, or that given the way that he’s behaved, that people would continue to recognize him as Tribune.
Dr Rad 21:03 Yeah, I definitely think it’s meant to be more than a year for sure. But do we think that he is tribune of the plebs or just a military Tribune? That? I don’t know. I feel like I kind of figured he was like a military Tribune.
Dr G 21:17 Well, that is an unfortunate place for the son of a senator to have ended up in terms of his career.
Dr Rad 21:23 I could be wrong, but that because they never really clarify that. But
Dr G 21:27 They don’t. They don’t. And he continues to be attributed throughout the whole that’s true.
Dr Rad 21:31 Yeah, that is true. I think they do use that more than his actual name. Tribune. Give me Yeah, Tribune. I’m having some trouble
Dr G 21:39 You sir, Tribune. I want you to do the crucifixions. today. I’m bored. Yeah. So our final scene. Ultimately, the plot leads us to this moment where it’s the ultimate showdown between Caligula and Marcellus.
Dr Rad 21:56 Yes. Because he’s been captured, he ends up getting captured when he’s trying to get everybody safely. Well, out of Rome, I think they’re going after.
Dr G 22:04 Yeah, he’s trying to get Demetrius safely out of Rome. Yeah. And in the course of that, they’re being run down by some cavalry. And Marcellus chooses to sacrifice himself. Yeah, that his friend can get away. Absolutely. It’s never really been clarified that they are friends now. But what assumes over the course of the travails that they’ve encountered that they now like each other, I think they do. Yeah. Yeah. This means that there is a huge public trial. Myself, his parents are there. All of the elite of Rome there.
Dr Rad 22:38 Yeah, all of them. It’s a massive crowd.
Dr G 22:40 It’s a huge crowd. So many people. Caligula comes in, in what is the reddest garment that has ever been seen on film,
Dr Rad 22:51 that the marvels of Technicolor for you?
Dr G 22:53 It’s incredible. Everybody else looks pale and washed out in comparison. But Caligula Boy, that is some Imperial read that he’s got. This leads into our whole sort of three ways sort of struggle between Diana, Marcellus and Caligula verbally duking it out, essentially.
Dr Rad 23:15 Actually, we should perhaps mentioned that Diana was meant to marry Caligula for a little while there. So yeah, yeah, it’s a triangle or
Dr G 23:24 it’s a triangle. And she certainly makes it clear where she stands to Caligula to the point that he changes his mind about being unwilling to punish her to her definitely having to die.
Dr Rad 23:37 Yeah, well, I mean, it’s a no brainer, really. I mean, when you’re choosing between Richard Burton’s sultry tones, and those of Jay Robinson, I mean, can you imagine that in the bedroom data, add data?
Dr G 23:54 It’s quite something. I mean, I hope he’s got an indoor voice. Just whispered to me, Caligula.
Dr Rad 24:03 Yeah, yeah. So basically clears like, you know what, you guys believe so much in this afterlife and this kingdom of heaven and being saved. No big deal if I execute the both of you, and so they match off quite happily just chip off into the clouds.
Dr G 24:18 Yeah, it’s the way this film ends is a little bit surprising. I felt like after two and a quarter hours of viewing time, I was not expecting the end scene to be a gentle walk by Marcellus and Diana, out of the trial into heaven.
Dr Rad 24:41 I know, I know, but I guess I guess because they knew the sequel was coming. That maybe they felt that that was okay. And look, you know, it’s kind of an anti Hollywood ending. I mean, it’s a happy ending. But it’s not your typical Hollywood ending, I suppose.
Dr G 24:56 Yeah, they do get to stay together forever in love, I suppose. Oh,
Dr Rad 25:01 there’s that. But I mean, I think if you were going for a real Hollywood ending that somehow they would both survive and Galio would become the emperor or something like that. And also maybe the Pope.
Dr G 25:14 Yeah, look, I mean, if you’re gonna rewrite history, I mean, lean in guys.
Dr Rad 25:19 Yeah, exactly. So that’s the rough storyline, which, as you can tell by the fact that it took us 13 minutes to tell you the story. But you know what, we’re saving you from watching a two and a quarter hour movie. So although if you want to it could be fun. I’m not saying you shouldn’t watch it. But you know, 13 minutes on two and a quarter hours. It’s not too bad. So let’s maybe talk about where this movie came in from Dr. G. So whilst Hollywood does love a Christians slash Jewish people versus Romans storyline, it did not come out of thin air is of course, based on a book, of course. Yeah. So it was actually written by a guy called Lloyd C. Douglas. And he was the son of an Indiana pastor. And he became a Lutheran minister himself, before moving over to the Congregational Church, for his career. But he started writing as we got into the like, the late 1920s, he started writing, he wrote this book called “Magnificent Obsession”, and it sold 3 million copies. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And so by 1933, he was like, You know what, I don’t think I need to be a minister anymore. I think I’m going to be a novelist.
Dr G 26:35 I’ve got a winning formula. And all I need to do is write my books. Yeah,
Dr Rad 26:39 he honestly became one of the most popular novelists in America in this time period. And this is not the Rube is not the only one of his books that was adapted into a film. So well, well, well, they’re not they don’t they’re not only popular in terms of people reading them. They are popular in terms of being picked up and made into Hollywood films. So the robe had been a best seller from 1942 until 1945.
Dr G 27:09 Wow, okay. Yeah. It was on the bestseller list for years.
Dr Rad 27:13 Yeah, absolutely. I presume that publication was maybe slightly slower for like the big novels. I know. They were dying novels and stuff out, you know, in the 1950s that people could buy. And they were turned out very quickly. But I feel like it is a slightly less crowded market, perhaps at this point in time.
Dr G 27:31 It’s a very interesting time for the novel to come out as well, like you’re in the middle of the Second World War.
Dr Rad 27:38 Yeah, you are indeed. So it was eventually bought by RKO. However, they didn’t really act on it. They just sort of bought the rights to it. And you know, by the late 1940s, it’s still something that they’re just sort of sitting on at that. At that point in time. Howard Hughes is in charge of RKO biblical films were not really his thing. He wasn’t as into them as other people seem to have been at the time.
Dr G 28:06 Sounds like how would use it, I might get along. Exactly, yeah.
Dr Rad 28:10 But eventually, Darryl Zanuck and Fox Studios step in. And this is how the film finally kind of gets off the ground and gets made. So that’s just sort of a little bit of background to the film. But as a result, and not, to be honest, this is pretty common for Hollywood movies of this time. There are a number of people who ended up working on the script for the film, because it has such a long production process. But even with the ones that were shorter, it was pretty common to have more than one person, you know, take a look at the script and give their input and that sort of thing. When the film was finally made, it definitely got a huge publicity campaign. So we’re talking radio ads, we’re talking television, we’re talking newspapers, everywhere you look there’s an ad for the road.
Dr G 28:58 Have you seen Cinemascope?
Dr Rad 29:02 Nobody has. It’s the first one to have it. So of course, it’s going to be viewing this new widescreen format which the studios are hoping is going to keep people coming to the movies rather than sitting at home and watching their televisions which of course the becoming a big thing in this post World War Two era and so they make the film’s bigger, more colorful, more extravagant, the kinds of thing that television which is generally a little square, black and white box just can’t really offer you know, we’re talking about also sound you know, stereophonic sound, it’s it’s all a big thing. And it’s given this huge premiere, where it’s like a freaking circus. We’re talking about, you know, the spotlights outside the cinema, the stars are attending, you know, it’s a very, very big deal.
Dr G 29:53 There’s gladiators playing games.
Dr Rad 29:58 Yeah, so it’s definitely a huge to do when it when it comes out. So as you highlighted when this novel was first written, and people were maybe first toying with the idea of making this film, it was a world war two time. And that seems to have been thought to be part of the message of the film when they were first, you know, throwing it around that in some way, Caligula and Rome are meant to be this sort of, you know, decadent place, that they’re somehow the way they’re treating Jewish people slash Christians, because of the crossover. It’s kind of meant to be like the persecutions that were carried out, in particular, I suppose, by Hitler, but also to some extent by Mussolini. So this was definitely meant to be something that people were, I think, picking up on when they were first, you know, developing this into a film.
Dr G 30:59 Look, I think that sounds reasonable. Yeah. Yeah, you do get the sense that the way that the Romans are being positioned in this film is quite particular. And it’s quite different from other epics of this era that I’ve watched so far, because I’m not going to pretend that I’m conversant in all the Hollywood epics.
Dr Rad 31:20 But there are quite a few now.
Dr G 31:22 I have watched a few but I wouldn’t say I’m in any way an expert at this point in time. But it did feel to me like the Romans were being very much positioned in a particular way. And it was, in part to do with, obviously, the focus is on the Christian story. So the Romans are, by default, the bad guys here, but also, that it’s coming out of that sort of post Second War mindset. Well, how do we understand conflict? How do we understand the persecution of peoples? And so while I wasn’t really consciously thinking about it, when I watched it, the vibe that the Romans are giving off in this film is intriguing.
Dr Rad 32:04 Yeah. And I think it’s kind of one of those things as well, where were these sorts of moralizing films, it’s kind of that thing of people get to enjoy watching the Romans have this very fancy schmancy life that they have, whilst also being like, Oh, isn’t a terrible, look at what they’re doing to those poor Christians. So it’s like they because the moral is there, they get to enjoy watching the decadence of Rome. But I didn’t feel like it was as over the top in the robe, as it has been in some of the other movies, we’ve watched, like quovadis, and that sort of thing.
Dr G 32:38 And I feel like the decadence was actually a little bit pared back in this film, like note that it didn’t have like all of the highly colored interior scenes and the layering of different stones and things like that it was obviously trying to be quite opulent in its way. But it also felt like maybe they didn’t have quite as much budget as some other films for some of that stuff. Yeah, definitely.
Dr Rad 33:00 Now, the other interesting thing I’m going to throw in contextually Dr G is that so when this film was purchased, and when it was being made, we’re still in the time of the studio system. So this is a period where you’ve got kind of like five major movie studios that really dominate the production of movies in Hollywood, there are some minor studios. And then there are also some truly budget, you know, just pump out these really crappy movie studios, they do exist. But the major films, particularly the ones that most people would be familiar with today, they’re going to be made by one of these major studios. And it’s kind of that idea of it being like the dream factory time of Hollywood, you know, where they’re manufacturing movies. And so they’re in charge of who gets hired to be director who’s the producer, who’s on contract, like the stars are all under contract at various studios, and they have to make so many pictures per year, and they get paid this much to do it and all that kind of stuff. So huge amount of control. Now, most of these Hollywood studios, these major ones are owned by Jewish movie moguls. This puts them I suppose in an interesting position in the 20th century. Now, of course, I think part of the reason why that ended up being the case is that typically, when when movies first sort of became a thing, it wasn’t necessarily the most admired or respectable profession to be involved in, you know, I mean, it wasn’t the theater.
Dr G 34:33 In the same way that actors in ancient Rome were suffering under the pool of a lack of respect for their craft. Exactly. So too, did early filmmakers, people like that’s not
Dr Rad 34:46 exactly yeah, and I think it’s so it’s something that you do tend to get people that perhaps aren’t risking a wider reputation, I suppose, or aren’t too concerned about what this wider society You may or may not think we’re also talking about people who are potentially immigrants. You know, there’s a whole bunch of reasons why you might end up getting maybe a higher percentage of Jewish people getting involved in the film industry in the early days. And their investment, of course really pays off, because everyone starts to really fall in love with movies, which makes, which makes the people that got involved in the early film industry, very wealthy when they rise to the top. Now, it’s not by any means only Jewish people that are involved. But there is a trend where a lot of the big movie Americans at the studios are Jewish people. Now, they don’t want to be seen to be putting prou Jewish propaganda into their films or things like that, particularly once we get into this time period that we’re talking about, you know, with, obviously, World War Two, I mean, even I mean, obviously, we talk about American history, obviously, there’s always been, I think, a certain stigma against anybody who’s perceived to be an outsider. But particularly in the early 20th century, we know that we see a spike in terms of racism, not just directed against African American groups, but also directed against any immigrant groups, and Jewish people in the 1930s, are increasingly being associated Well, in the 1920s, and the 1930s. Really, they’re increasingly being associated with communism. So especially with everything that’s happened with World War Two, especially, it’s not really a great time, I suppose, to be seen, to be putting out film sort of openly, you know, Pro, the Jewish course. 1919 48, I think makes it particularly touchy issue. Because, of course, this is when we get the creation of the State of Israel. So with the creation of the State of Israel, there was actually a film release that was touching on these sorts of issues, and was kind of pro Israel called the sword in the desert. But there was a riot that broke out in a London cinema when it was shown. And so it was actually withdrawn. And so I think that showed a message of, you know, people aren’t really going to want to see these sorts of films, or at least that’s the feeling. And obviously, we’re talking about Hollywood, it’s a business, you’ve got to, you know, make your money somehow. So a way I suppose, of dealing with that was by making biblical epics, where there is a bit of a focus on, say, the Old Testament. So we do see a lot of Jewish heroes turning up in some of these 1950s epics, another one, of course, played by Victor mature Samson, Samson and Delilah. And then of course, we’ve got Moses turning up in the 10 commandments. And then you’ve got characters like Joshua Solomon, and even in terms of women, you’ve got people like Ruth and Esther turning up in some of these biblical epics. So the robe is kind of an interesting one, because it is obviously crossing that, that line between Old Testament days and entering the New Testament led by one Jesus Christ.
Dr G 38:02 Yeah, we’re in this very interesting storyline. I suspect, and it doesn’t necessarily, I don’t think it’s over in this film. But it’s clear as well, that this is about the genesis of Christianity. And it emerges out of Palestinian culture, that’s clear, both from the geographic location. And it’s clear from the way in which the robe engages with this story as well, like Marcellus goes on this journey, which involves him going into Palestine as part of his job as a Roman, but also learning and discovering things about himself while he is there. Yeah. And for him, that’s not necessarily about Jesus in the beginning. It’s a much longer journey. And so I think part of what this film is trying to do is to try to capture what does this historical moment really mean? For so that sense in which we know that there are people in Palestine during this time period historically, who are being crucified? And what kind of effect does that have on the people who are there at the time? And what kind of stories are they telling about these people? Because one of these stories ends up becoming very influential, and being retold and retold. So this is an interesting way to tackle it, I think, through the eyes of somebody who is Roman, and also through the eyes of someone who is not Roman, but he’s also an outsider.
Dr Rad 39:34 Yeah, it is a really interesting film in that respect. And I think also the choice of having it I mean, obviously, they had to place it when they did if they were going to be accurate about when Jesus was supposedly alive and when he was being crucified. But I think there is also a tendency to set these sorts of movies during the Empire, not just because historically it makes sense, but also because there are publican era of Rome had been such a model for the USA itself. And they like to think of themselves as you know, inheriting some of those Republican Roman values. So a way I suppose dealing with the fact that they like, we’re like the Romans, they’re like, oh, wait a second. Not those Romans. Yeah. When like their republic and Romans, not those decadent, Imperial Roman, it’s not the USA.
Dr G 40:26 I mean, they’re very lucky in that regard that the timeline is what it is. Because imagine if this had happened in the Republic, and it very well could have because
Dr Rad 40:35 Their heads would literally explode
Dr G 40:38 We are not that far into the imperial period.
Dr Rad 40:44 Now, of course, for that there were some minor contextual factors. So the rivalry from television, we’ve got the studio system, and the people that are behind the studio system, follow the money, did you?
Dr G 40:57 Well, yeah. Like I hear Jean Simmons had to, like, break contract and get a different contract in order to do partly to be in this film.
Dr Rad 41:04 That’s generally what they had to do. There’s always sort of like they it was, it was almost as though the celebrities were like trading cards. And, you know, studios would be like, Look, I really want so and so from this picture, they be just right for the role. What can you do I will trade you these two women for that woman for six months? Or? Or yeah, they will, they had to renegotiate their contracts. Because often their contracts would be like for seven years. So it’s quite a substantial chunk of time. So we’ve got television, we’ve got the studio system, we’ve got the creation of Israel, whilst this film is very slowly being developed. And then of course, the big thing that we need to talk about is the Red Scare of the 1950s. Don’t know. Thank you, thank you, I needed a sound effect. So by the time the room is finally like properly in production, which is by the early 1950s, we’re looking at a second round of huge hearings, which is the house of UnAmerican Activities Committee. And these are the people that are most notorious for trying to root out communists in various industries in America, but in particular, in Hollywood, and I say in particular, in that it was probably obviously the most widely publicized.
Dr G 42:23 Yeah, it’s a horrifying time to be for the progressive political nature.
Dr Rad 42:27 Yes. So there’s been a lot of talk about the robe and the whack hearings. Because of course, there are some key scenes in the room, which some people have taken to mean, that this film was trying to talk about the present happenings in America, whilst extensively talking about the past. I’m wondering if you can guess which scenes I’m talking about Dr. G. I
Dr G 42:53 don’t know that I can. I didn’t have this moment where I was like, aha, that’s a clear us moment. I had moments where I was like, this is another Lady Macbeth reference.
Dr Rad 43:04 Very possibly,
Dr G 43:05 maybe they’re the same. Look, there is this scene on the ship back to Italy, where Barcellos seems to be involuntarily moaning a bit like a lady while he’s asleep. As there is the sound of the hammer on the deck of the ship. Could this be a hammer and sickle reference that I’ve missed? Could this? Could this be a recollection of his role in the crucifixion? Where the sounds are the hammer of minds him of the of the nails that he drilled into Jesus’s body? Anyway? I don’t know. But that was a great scene.
Dr Rad 43:43 Well, basically, it is the scene where Tiberius is talking to Marcellus, the Tribune, about finding out about the road, like tracking it down. Yeah, reaching out all the Christians, all of that kind of stuff. So he explicitly says to Marcellus, you know, I need a list of names every name, I need to know who these people are, we need to hunt them down, we need to route them down. So that has sometimes been seen as a not very subtle reference to what he wack was trying to do in the late 1940s. And in the early 1950s, because this film, of course, came out in 1953. So it was out after two rounds of Hollywood hearings, the of the committee, so some people have seen that as being a reference. But I did find this article which delves into the complicated production of this film. And part of I think the reason why people were so keen to see a parallel is that the major screenwriter during the early days of production for the robe was Albert moths. Now, Albert mult isn’t a minor very well, because he was one of the Hollywood 10. So he’s one of the original guys that ends up getting called up in 1947. Before he work along with another guy, I know, Dalton Trumbo, he and Trump We’re pretty tight.
Dr G 45:02 Of course they are.
Dr Rad 45:05 Yeah, yeah. And then the next guy to work on the script is a guy called Philip Dunne. Now he ended up being part of a group of people in Hollywood called the committee for the First Amendment. So this is a reference to the fact that when the US UK hearing started to happen in 1947, quite a lot of the more liberal people in Hollywood were, of course horrified by what was happening, these people that they know, these people that they’ve worked with, and they perhaps were just liberal enough to not think that this was actually something that should be happening in America. So a bunch of them get together to try and rally support for the Hollywood 10. And they end up calling themselves the committee for the first amendment because one of the decisions one of the key decisions that the Hollywood tena decided to make in 1947, is that they were going to plead the First Amendment and not the fifth. Okay, so they’re not they’re not pleading,
Dr G 46:04 now, you’re really testing my understanding of the US Constitution, because I do not know what the First Amendment stands for adults. Basically,
Dr Rad 46:13 we’re talking about the Fifth Amendment is your right to not incriminate yourself, which tends to be what happens later on in the huge tech hearings, because the First Amendment doesn’t work. The First Amendment we’re talking about things like your freedom of speech. Okay, your your basic freedoms, like some of the things that Americans cling to, most daily, I see. And they basically say that they want to do that rather than pleading the fifth when they get called up in front of this committee, because to plead the fifth kind of has the connotation, I suppose that you have done something criminal, I was
Dr G 46:49 gonna say, surely pleading, the fifth is already an implication of
Dr Rad 46:53 kind of, I mean, like, it’s not really, that’s not really what it necessarily means, but it does have that connotation. Whereas the First Amendment, it’s more about fundamental freedom, like if you’re at risk
Dr G 47:04 of incriminating yourself, doesn’t that make you criminal?
Dr Rad 47:07 Well, I mean, this is the thing. No, it doesn’t have to, it’s more just the fact that obviously, you have the right not to incriminate yourself, maybe accidentally, but it just, it just has that connotation. So yeah. So that’s why it became a big thing because they took that stance that they were going to plead the First Amendment and argue this and it does not go well for them. And why? Yeah, yeah, that’s a shame. He’d been one of the he was he was known to be a political liberal. And he was one of the founding members of this group, which also included some very well known names like you know, Lauren Bacall, Humphrey Bogart. Yeah. Lots of people who would do you know, radio announcements, telling people look, this is what is happening right now. This is terrifying. We need to do something about it. We need to rally and show support. So there’s definitely some leftist feelings coming out of the screen writing. There’s just just like, catch Dr. G. O. Albert molts was riding the robe up until about 1946. I wonder if you can do some quick math for me and tell me what the problem is with that? Well, it’s
Dr G 48:10 after the Second World War for the huge tech hearings? I don’t know. That’s exactly
Dr Rad 48:15 right. It’s before the HUAC hearing. So how could he be making coded reference to the US hearings before the hearings?
Dr G 48:24 I mean, the guy’s got four. So what can I say? He’s a smart man. And he saw it coming. Yeah. So
Dr Rad 48:33 while says obviously potential for there to be some Anti Fascist stuff, because yeah, that album also sort of worked into the script. You know, in terms of what everyone’s just been going through with World War Two, it seems unlikely that Albert moulds would have been able to work in huge references before the huge hearings, that became a problem for him in 1947.
Dr G 48:59 You do make a very sound argument and I am convinced,
Dr Rad 49:03 I would like to claim this as my own but somebody else went into the archives in this effort. However, that still leaves the question of fill Phillip done. Okay.
Dr G 49:15 Yes, sinister.
Dr Rad 49:18 Well, not necessarily mean, I actually quite like the sound of him. He sounds like I’ve gotten a guy.
Dr G 49:23 Philip is done. That’s what I’m told.
Dr Rad 49:26 I suppose there are also they’re also supposed to pretend potential references to kind of like blacklisting and curricula being a somewhat McCarthy like figure particularly in that last big scene that you talked about. Okay, the way that he talks about the way he’s talking to Gallio in that final showdown of his seen,
Dr G 49:49 also the way he has plants in the audience to backup his position, which, which aren’t enough to get it across the line anyway, which is kind of hilarious because you think As the Emperor he’d be able to buy off more people. But he’s then also immediately called out for this by Diana being like, that’s all you got the people you planted in the crowd.
Dr Rad 50:10 I know she’s very outspoken. I love the fact that in both Demetrius and the Gladiator, and sorry, Demetrius of the Gladiators, and The Robe, we have these final scenes where Roman women are super outspoken in a public fora. Yeah, in a way that I think would not fly in reality. No, just laying into them. Yeah. But I think the thing that really came through for me when I was rewatching, it is that Marcellus is very clear to Caligula that look, this is just what I believe. I’m not trying to take down Rome, you know, I can, I can be loyal to both of you, which I think is very interesting, because that’s kind of the line that a lot of people who were brought up before the huge tech committee in the 1940s, and the 1950s, were trying to argue, the majority of them, I mean, particularly those who worked in Hollywood, sure, I’m sure there are some rogue communists out there in the states who were aiming higher, but in terms of the Hollywood people, they weren’t trying to take over the state.
Dr G 51:14 And this is also I think, tapping into some bigger ideas that I think America at this time had about itself. And maybe these ideas linger today in various ways, which is when Marcellus makes this dichotomy between his ability to serve Rome, which is completely uncompromised and his perspective, and his personal interest in pursuing his beliefs, to the extent to which they don’t affect his capacity to serve Rome, is tapping into that idea of freedom of religion. And also, this vaunted, but potentially quite false idea of the separation of religion and state, which is a very modern invention. And once we look into any state system, almost completely unsupported by the evidence at play on the ground in any nation state of today.
Dr Rad 52:10 Yeah, definitely. Now, one of the interesting things is that we do actually have a record of Maltz’s version of the script, which Philip Dunne would have used to develop his idea. And Maltz definitely had more scenes that develop this idea of the need for the naming of names. And it also included a bit more development with the character of Abbey door. Now Abbey door is the informant, that must sell us users to try and find out about the Christian, the Jewish slash Christian community that he is tracking down. So in Maltz’s, version, Marcellus actually gives avatar a coin in exchange for every name that is brought to him. These These were not kept, obviously in Dunne’s version, which begs the question, was it purely because if there’s already an incredibly long fail, or was it that by the time that done was working on the script, those sorts of references might have been seen as maybe too problematic?
Dr G 53:19 Maybe unseemly, given the circumstances that we’re facing right now in Hollywood? Let’s not mention that.
Dr Rad 53:26 Exactly. Yeah. Because it is no doubt that Philip Dunne is was somebody who was anti-HUAC, but the thing is, he was also anti communist. So the people that were part of this committee for the First Amendment, they weren’t necessarily communists themselves. In fact, I would say that generally, they were not communists at all. They were just people who thought that he work was wrong. And thought it was important to speak out against the freedoms that were to speak out because they were basic American freedoms that were being trampled on. And also because I presume, again, because of that natural affinity for people that you knew and people that you worked with being, you know, put in this horrible situation.
Dr G 54:11 Yeah, look, I think that’s completely fair. You always want to stick up for your friends.
Dr Rad 54:16 Yeah. So I mean, I guess it’s like one of those movies that in a way you can kind of read it, however you like, in that you can see it as being a critique of totalitarianism. Okay, it could be seen, as you know, you could see Caligula and the Romans as being kind of Stalinist communist figures and that you’re living in a repressive state, or you can read it as being I suppose, a critique of the kind of repression that was going on during the hue Acura, I think
Dr G 54:45 it offers itself to a range of these sorts of interpretations and the importance of the positioning of the audience in this to very much be on the side of Marcellus and that unfolding personal journey Ready to understanding is part of the key way that it’s navigating all of these tension.
Dr Rad 55:06 Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So overall, Dr. G, after, after us talking all about all these various contextual issues for the making of the room. What is your final impression of this film?
Dr G 55:21 Oh look, I don’t want to see it again. I know, I like my Roman history to just be a little bit more grandiose. I don’t know that I’m into it as being a backdrop for some other sort of moral didacticism, which it feels very strongly as what’s going on here. I did enjoy the elder Tiberius, he seemed like the most reasonable guy around traps in this building.
Dr Rad 55:54 Although I must admit, I thought you would pick up on this, did you pick up on the fact that Tiberius was very skeptical about Roman religious practices?
Dr G 56:03 I mean, I suppose he should be. He’s seen enough in his time. And in terms of my overall I probably gonna give it maybe three stars, it’s clearly been very well put together for its time and its age. I want to see more Romans, the robe, it didn’t feel like it was well explained.
Dr Rad 56:26 You mean how the magic worked.
Dr G 56:29 Look, guys, what’s going on with this robe?
Dr Rad 56:33 Well, I think it’s kind of interesting, because I suppose like a lot of blockbuster films these days. Interestingly, there was a bit of a divide between critics and the audience. So as I mentioned at the beginning, clearly it was well patronized, lots of people went to see it, you know, and I think that, that has to be partly put down to the fact that it was a new screen technology. And even though television might have been enticing people away from the movies a little bit, there’s still no way that a 1950s television could compete with the sort of star studded epics. That was so colorful. And you know, the other than that, you know, the sound has been so rich, and the colors were so dazzling. I don’t think television could really compete with these sorts of things. So I can see why the average person on the street with like them, but critics were a little bit more hesitant about this sort of film. So I did find an article which I will cite in the show notes, which had some of my favorite ways of summing up the robe, so I thought you might enjoy them as well. So from the New Statesman on the 28th of November 1953. Most of the film I have found dull and the rest nauseating.
Dr G 57:50 Goodness me Well, that one’s not not enjoying it at all.
Dr Rad 57:54 From the Daily Mail on the 20th of November 1953, fundamentally, distasteful
Dr G 58:00 Distasteful.
Dr Rad 58:03 From the evening news on the 20th of November 1953, just money down the drain. From the Evening Standard, on the 20th, November 1953, boring heavy faltered and ham fisted
Dr G 58:18 look, I think I’d agree with that, to be honest,
Dr Rad 58:21 from the Sunday Express on the 22nd of November, tediously earnest and crushingly sentimental. And finally, my favorite one from the Financial Times 20th of November 1953. Although why the Financial Times of reviewing the robe I will never know. A long lacrimose, high class sleeping draught.
Dr G 58:44 I spent a lot of money and I napped very well. Thank you. Yeah, look, and I hear that I did find it tough to get through this film. And I will say that there is a moment where I expected the robe to really do itself justice. And the robe failed to show up. And that’s the moment where Demetrius is clearly at death’s door. Oh, sure. Yeah, there at Marcellus, his dad’s house, and the Roman physician is there. And he’s like, look, there are limits to what science can achieve. It’s like I can’t put the blood back in his body. And yeah, kind of gives up on it. And then he walks out there, we have pee to go in. I was like, it’s now time for the robe. Surely a healthy application of the robe is going to fix this guy. But not only do we not get to see it, but it doesn’t seem like the robe was involved. There’s some other miracle happening there. And I was like, Guys, you really missed a trick. The robe could have done the job, and it would have made the magic. palpably real for everybody at that point.
Dr Rad 59:52 I know exactly what you mean. But it since they were already planning a sequel, lest we forget that that’s what cures Demetrius’ love in Demetrius and the Gladiators, part two of The Robe. So I wonder if they knew that that was going to be the plot device for that. Alright. I don’t want to undercut the power of the robe. No, yeah, you can’t, you got to overuse a piece of fabric. And of course,
Dr G 1:00:14 I went into this already knowing that piece of information because we’ve talked about the sequel before we’ve talked about the original. So I was kind of like, surely it’s robe time, just to wave the robe over and gently have a stand. Yeah, that’s a little blanket. And it’s like, he’s gonna come good. Trust me. We know this. But they don’t. And I was like, Ah,
Dr Rad 1:00:35 I wonder if it’s because they needed to make use of, you know, Peter, a little bit more St. Peter. They needed his talents on display. I mean, he was
Dr G 1:00:42 definitely under utilized in this film. I think I was like, Why is he here? He’s got to get to Rome. Somehow. I suppose.
Dr Rad 1:00:49 I met the guy who plays him. I mean, come on, he really does look like something out of a DaVinci painting. I love that guy. Like already, hats off to you definitely has the look. Yeah, yeah. And I think we mentioned this when we talked about Demetrius and the gladiators. Lest we forget that Christianity became a vehicle for showing your patriotism in this time period in America. And we all know how much Americans love and showing their patriotism. And so it was kind of like one of those things where if the Soviets your enemy in the Cold War, godless communists, then Americans, freedom loving Christians, and so going to church every week was a sign of not only your personal religious faith, but your loyalty to America and your patriotism. So I kind of presume that going to the sorts of films, it must have been something that was very much a part of the, you know, the general vibe, particularly in certain areas in America in this time period.
Dr G 1:01:56 Oh, yeah, definitely. And I can imagine there’d be people trying to sell the robe after you left the cinema as well.
Dr Rad 1:02:05 Well, funny, you should mention that because I do have another statistic here from also another article that I will cite in the show notes. That said that tells me that between 1950 and 1963 Ancient World epics topped the US box office in seven out of the 13 years, so I don’t so we have Samson and Delilah, Victor Mature in 1950. David and Bathsheba in 1951, The Robe in 1953. Then there’s a little bit of a lull, is it because of The Robe?
Dr G 1:02:39 Probably everybody’s like I brought all my tickets. I really can’t afford to go to the cinema.
Dr Rad 1:02:44 The Ten Commandments in 1957 Ben Hur in 1960s Spartacus in 1962 and Cleopatra in 1963. And Quo Vadis in 1952 was second only pipped at the post by the greatest show on earth. Wow. And this is the same. This is the thing whilst we might say okay, so maybe there’s a bit of a yearning for Christianity in this time period because of the cold war. But it’s the same way the world over. Now. To be fair, the world is more Christian, as in there are more people that would probably identify as Christians in general, in this time period, as well. So perhaps not surprising, but they don’t have to go and see it to show their loyalty to their governments or whatever they’re trying to do. So that’s true. Yeah, yeah. But I thought I wanted to use this to sum up with, okay, the road, we’ve done it, I agree with you. It’s not my favorite, although I do love Richard Burton and Gene Simmons, as actors in this film, and I do enjoy a bit of curricula. I actually think I enjoyed Demetrius and the gladiators more. But I thought a good way of summing this up was to take this little snippet from a Sunday Times critic called Delos Powell. She wrote something which I really enjoyed, which were the Scripture prizes 1932 to 1961. Are you ready for the awards? Dr. G?
Dr G 1:04:06 I’m ready.
Dr Rad 1:04:07 Okay. The award for most vulgar film goes to the side of the cross. Applause Applause Applause
And that’s a film from the 1930s. The award for Most nauseating film goes to Quo Vadis.
The award for the most exhausting film goes to The Ten Commandments.
Dr G 1:04:38 That is exhausting as true.
Dr Rad 1:04:40 The award for the most nondescript film goes to The Robe.
Dr G 1:04:47 Nondescript, yeah,
Dr Rad 1:04:50 the award for the most luxurious bloodbaths goes to Samson and Delilah. The award for the most idiotic additional dialogue goes to the big fisherman. award for the most genteel orgy goes to Solomon and Sheba.
Dr G 1:05:15 She’s just making these categories up.
Dr Rad 1:05:18 Yeah, that’s the point. And finally, a special chariot race award goes to Ben Hur,
Dr G 1:05:29 Hur hur hur. I mean, I’d be very surprised if it went to The Fall of the Roman Empire. But it’s up there.
Dr Rad 1:05:38 Oh, I think that would definitely be number two, surely. And I will I very much like talking to you about the road because whilst the robe might not actually be the most flashy of the ethics of the Golden Age in the 1950s, it certainly has a lot of the things that I like to talk about, which is the war on television, the studio system at play modern politics, in terms of the foundation of the State of Israel, and of course, American domestic politics, the background of the huge tech hearings and the hunt for reds under the bed.
Dr G 1:06:19 Yes, wow. Caligula did have a very red robe and that should be a hint to anybody
Dr Rad 1:06:25 Absolutely.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Building the Bromance
Mar 16, 2023
What do you get when Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus and Aulus Cornelius Cossus return in our source material? The continuation of a beautiful bromance.
After an unfortunate amount of disease and destruction in our last episode, we return to Rome for some classic political and military action.
The Romans are ready to put a year of horrible drought behind them and seek revenge on Veii and the ongoing thorn in their side. Fidenae. It also turns out that war is the perfect backdrop for some male bonding.
Episode 135 – Building the Bromance
Jupiter as my Witness!
Before the Romans can get involved in any conflicts with Veii, there are rules of warfare that need to be observed. It is time for the fetiales! With Jupiter as their witness, they will make sure that Rome only goes to war in the right circumstances.
Fresco of Jupiter, National Archaeological Museum of Naples (inv. nr.9551). From Pompeii, House of the Dioscuri, dating to the 1st century CE, so much later than the 420s BCE! Jupiter was invoked by thefetiales during their rituals. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Building the Bromance
The Romans elect military tribunes with consular power as they embark on their war with Veii. Unfortunately, the tribunes don’t have a talent for teamwork. It’s time for a dictator!
Our old friend Cossus nominates Mamercus Aemilius as dictator. In return, Aemilius makes Cossus his Master of the Horse. The bromance between these two is so strong that Veii doesn’t stand a chance. They are the Roman equivalent of Batman and Robin.
Watch out Etruscans! The caped crusaders are out to get you.
The classic duo: is that Mamercus and Cossus or Batman and Robin? When we squint, we can’t even tell, that’s how strong the bromance is here.
Things to Look Out For:
More confusion over consuls
Murder most foul
Birds in the sky (they might be trying to tell you something)
Smugness from Mamercus
Fiery combat
Did we write a book? Oh boy, yes we did! If you enjoy the podcast, this might be just the ticket. You can purchase our popular history Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome HERE
C. Servilius – f. – n. Structus Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 419, 418, 417
L. Papirius (L. f. – n.) Mugillanus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 422
Our Players 426 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat) Cos 431, 428a, Mil. Tr. c. p. 420?
C. Furius – f. – n. Pacilus Fusus (Pat) Cos. 441
M. Postumius A. ? f. A.? n. Albinus Regillensis? (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 403?
A. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Cossus (Pat) Cos. 428
Dictator
Mam. Aemilius M. f. – n. Mamercinus (Pat)
Master of the Horse
A. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Cossus (Pat) Cos. 428a, Mil. Tr. c. p. 426
Legates
T. Quinctius Poenus Cincinattus (Pat) Cos. 431, Mil. tr. c. p. 426, 420?
Our Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.78.1, 12.80.1; Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 12.6; Valerius Maximus 3.2.4; Frontinus Stratagems 2.4.18-19, 2.8.9; Florus 1.6.7; Aurelius Victor De Viris Illustribus urbis Romae 25; Orosius 2.13.8-11
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.31-34.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
The Apollo of Veii, dated to around 550-520 BCE. This is a terracotta artefact that is now held in the National Etruscan Museum in Rome. Source: Obelisk Art History Project.
Automated Transcript
Transcript generated by Otter AI. Edited by Dr G for those tricky Latin names!
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:19 we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:22 Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:33 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us, as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:54 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G. And sitting with me in the realm of cyberspace.
Dr Rad 1:09 Is Dr. Rad. That’s cyberspace.
Dr G 1:17 I feel ya, I feel ya. And we are tracing the history of Rome from the foundation of the city. And hoo-we, we have made it out of the 430s and scraped into the 420s. And we are about to look at 427 BCE. But before we do that, perhaps we should do a bit of a recap of where we’re up to in the narrative.
Dr Rad 1:47 I was just thinking to myself, how do you recap nothing? How do you recap, the nothingness that was the previous three years?
Dr G 1:58 Well, I mean, it’s not like there was absolutely nothing. There was a drought, there were some there was some bad news. And there was a truce made between the Aequians and the Romans.
Dr Rad 2:10 Definitely, like there was some stuff going on. But by the standards that we have come to expect of Rome, it was it was low, it was low.
Dr G 2:20 And I think we can attribute part of the fallowness of those years to the source material. As much as Livy is still with us. He did say that nothing happened.
Dr Rad 2:33 He did, I can’t deny it. But also, I feel like this has to do a lot with what we’ve been talking about for a really long time now, literally years for us. So decades. For the Romans, we talked about the fact that there does seem to have been this really tough time in Roman history. If we look at the archaeological record, I thought we were looking at a tough time in the late 450s and into the 440s. But I had no idea what was awaiting us in the 430s. It is out of control.
Dr G 3:10 Yeah, there’s heaps of problems with like, what might be going on with how Rome is in central Italy in this period. And, as we’ve noted before, there’s not any sort of extensive record of a building programme, we’ve had some references to what this new temple to Apollo come up in the last few years, but that’s the first building we’ve heard about in a while.
Dr Rad 3:33 They’re suspicious of that building now.
Dr G 3:36 Yes,
Dr Rad 3:36 Just slightly, just slightly
Dr G 3:37 That temple. Can we trust Apollo? That God looks fishy to me. And so they have a sense in which their competition with their neighbours is so all consuming that it makes it very difficult to make progress at home. And that’s just adding into what is the broader confusion, which is all of our source material, generally speaking, comes from centuries later, where they’re unsure about what happened. And they’re trying to figure it out from the limited records that have survived from this period. And they’re a little bit all over the shop. So we’re in some trying times, and that’s okay. We’ll just keep going.
Dr Rad 4:23 Look, I’m excited because the next couple of years, I know that there’s potential for some very dramatic things to happen. So let’s get into it, Dr. G. Let’s head into 427 BCE!
Dr G 5:20 It is 427 BCE and Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.
Dr Rad 5:29 Fair enough. Well, once again, you know, I’m very good sharer. You should have the magistrates you should have that honour.
Dr G 5:36 Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, I don’t have many to report for this year. We apparently have the names of the consuls. So we’ve got Gaius Servilius Structus Ahala. Ahala!
Dr Rad 5:54 Ahala the armpit.
Dr G 5:58 Ahala.
Dr Rad 5:59 Yes, the famous armpit. Yeah.
Dr G 6:01 Well, yeah, so I was gonna say if this name sounds familiar, it’s because we’ve already had a very infamous Gaius Servilius Ahala, the armpit as master of the horse in 439, who was responsible for or scapegoated as the person responsible for the assassination of Spurius Maeilus, also known as the Nacho King. And so this is big news because literally the same name, but we do think that they’re different people. This seems to be the next one down the line.
Dr Rad 6:39 He was meant to be sent into exile, wasn’t he?
Dr G 6:41 Well yeah, he was sent into exile. We don’t seem to hear from him again. And do have this name Structus stuck in this guy for this year. And that name is not present for our previous Gaius Servilius Ahala. So okay, we don’t really we’re not really sure, but it does seem to be slightly different guy.
Dr Rad 7:04 Okay.
Dr G 7:05 So possibly the eldest son of the infamous armpit because the Ahala name is one of these cognomens, so it’s one of these sort of individualising names. But how many people could be known by their armpit?
Dr Rad 7:21 I’ve never thought about it. I never thought.
Dr G 7:25 I mean, if this is a nickname, I don’t know, but maybe it’s inherited. And our second consul is Lucius Papirius Mugillanus.
Dr Rad 7:35 Papirius again!
Dr G 7:39 Another Papirii so this gens is doing well for themselves. But this guy is new. Mugillanus is a new figure that we haven’t really come across before. This seems to be connected, potentially, to a family from the Latin town of Mugilla.
Dr Rad 7:59 Okay.
Dr G 8:00 Don’t bother trying to find it on any maps because we don’t know where it was.
Dr Rad 8:05 Then Moogly up to the server at night. All right, look, I’ve got a little bit of detail about this year. So let’s get into it. I think you’ll see the pace is starting to build up again. So this is a good sign. So, as is typical for Livy, we’ve had this horrible drought, causing all sorts of problems in terms of disease, death, chaos
Dr G 8:29 Mange.
Dr Rad 8:30 In the previous year. Yeah, it’s all bad. But it’s miraculously just all over now. We’re on to new things, and the Romans feel well enough to seek vengeance against Veii who, lest we forget, seem to have been conducting some raids into Roman territory over the past year or two.
Dr G 8:50 All right, I’m just gonna interrupt you there because it’s clearly rained, which means and this is one for the Australian listeners, Marge, the rains are here!
Dr Rad 9:04 Classic Simpsons reference and in the previous episode, we had a great Seinfeld reference, we’re basking in the glory of the 90s.
Dr G 9:12 It’s all happening.
Dr Rad 9:13 It is alright, so they want to deal with Veii. Okay, and we’ve got our consuls as you said. However, it was decided that they could not declare war on Veii straightaway. So we know that there’s been this niggling backwards and forwards, but it was iffy about whether they were actually you know, still at war, like it was like an ongoing conflict that they could just renew. And I guess it was decided that it was best to be cautious and therefore presume that they weren’t really already at war with they, and therefore this means that some of your favourites the fetiales have to go through their procedures before anything else can happen. So I thought this might actually be a good time to sort of review, what it is that these people do?
Dr G 10:03 Oh, yeah, look, the fetiales is some of my favourite priests. So they come in pairs. And they roam about the countryside looking for just war. so
Dr Rad 10:14 Sounds very noble when you put it like that
Dr G 10:17 One of them is dressed very fancily, one of them’s not. And they go around together, if if Rome is in the mood, where they’re like, we really do think that possibly conflict is on the horizon, is it going to be just in the eyes of the gods, then they get the fetiale crew out and about, and they have a very particular job, they’ve got a walk towards the territory, which Rome has a problem with. And as they walk along, they sort of announced periodically that they are seeking some sort of like righting of the relationship between Rome and this place, particularly when they get to what is considered to be the borderland between the two and before they step over into the symbolic other place, then they keep going, and periodically keep saying the things until they start to encounter people of that land. And you know, the message starts to spread, and these to continue onwards towards the major city centre of whatever place it is, and continue to announce, and they make some demands being like, you need to really liaise with Rome, otherwise, it’s going to be a bit problematic, then they wait a specified period of time for an answer. And if they get one, that’s fine, they take it back to Rome, and they start to figure things out from there. If they don’t get one, they head back to Rome. And they’re like, I think it might be time to consider a just war. And so then they go out again, and they do a bit of spear throwing into the other territory. And check out how the gods react to that. And if it’s all looking good. War is just and may commence in the eyes of the god.
Dr Rad 11:51 Yeah, absolutely. They have this really interesting position where to quote the article that will be in our sources. So if you want to have a look at this article in full, please do they are in a sense, the people that preside over the rights that precede a war begin a war and at the end of the war, as well. And they serve this really interesting role as the kind of judges slash guardians of the peace of Rome, which I like as a nice little way of conjuring up what it is they do. And their role changed over time, as we shall see, it’s not it’s not always exactly the same.
Dr G 12:33 Look, there’s nothing like a good twist on the tale, or like these are priests that are definitely involved in war. So to suggest that they’re very much involved with peace is fascinating and hilarious.
Dr Rad 12:45 Well, yes. I mean, I think in terms of, you know, as you say, it’s about are the Romans going to war for the right reasons should peace be broken, I suppose in order to go to war in that sense. Yes. Anyway, so we have the fetiales going through their proper procedures, okay. And we know, of course, there has been some conflicts with Rome and Veii because they were involved in the whole issue, over Fidenae, the colony that was and then wasn’t, and then was, but doesn’t seem to be committing to it wholeheartedly. You know, it’s all very iffy with Veii and Fidenae at this point in time, I think we can definitely say that, if what the accounts that were given are correct. Rome is really struggling to assert itself in this whole decade in this part of Italy.
Dr G 13:39 Yeah, they can send as many fetiales as they like searching for just war, but they can’t hold it together. And they can’t seem to retain the things that they have laid out as their own. So Fidenae was theirs. And they’re definitely struggling to hold on to it at this point.
Dr Rad 13:57 Yeah. So after the whole issue that they had had over Fidenae, they had a truce with Veii that had expired, admittedly, but the Romans still see the need to obviously declare war properly. So the fetiales go out and do their business, but rudely, they are completely ignored.
Dr G 14:17 Yeah, amazing. Well, I mean, let’s face it, let’s imagine you imagine the time these two weirdos from Rome, one of them dress very fancily, and the other one sort of like he’s offsider and they sort of approaching and they’re doing this sort of like, did you know that you are not in right relation with Rome?
Dr Rad 14:42 Like ah, yeah, I think I just stole your cow.
Dr G 14:46 They’re like, Well, sure, but whatever. And then the you know, like they walk another 50 metres and like, did you know that you’re not a right relation with Rome, and you know, like waving a fancy stick and stuff. And I can see how some people might not take them very seriously. Or, conversely realise the import of these two people and just laugh in their faces being like, this is how your gonna win the war. Really?
Dr Rad 15:18 I feel like the people of Veii are not particularly interested in preserving peaceful relations at this moment in time. So.
Dr G 15:26 And they probably have good confidence for that.
Dr Rad 15:28 Yeah. Well, should they though? Should they?
Dr G 15:31 Well, well, I guess we’ll find out.
Dr Rad 15:36 Anyway, so it’s obvious that a war is going to happen. A controversy breaks out over who has the right to actually declare the war? Is it the Senate or the people?
Wha-whoa
Turf war. Yeah. So I think it’s, I think it’s seen as like standard procedure at this point in time that the people are generally the ones that decide whether they are going to go to war. But they’re starting to say, well, do we need to take it to the people? Is the senatorial decree enough? Now, again, this is probably a little bit anachronistic, I am not entirely confident in this idea of a senatorial decree, at this point in Rome’s history. Now we are getting later, maybe I’m being overly cautious.
Dr G 16:25 We’re in this very hazy period where it’s hard to say. So from thinking about how Rome works. And we’re not sure like that’s, that’s where we’re at in terms of the scholarship, we’re not entirely sure how it’s working at this point in time. What we do know is that, generally speaking, the Roman people are involved in decisions relating to war, because it relates to things that they’re specifically going to have to do.
Dr Rad 16:57 Yeah.
Dr G 16:57 And the Senate has lots of mechanisms and levers to push and pull those people in particular ways. This is not a democracy. But surely, the Senate has enough of its own levers still, to be able to persuade the people one way or the other. I would have thought this would suggest if we’re looking at something where the Senate is like, well, we’re just going to make that decision for everybody. That would seem to suggest to me that they’ve actually lost control of the populace.
Dr Rad 17:29 Hmm, interesting take. So the tribunes ended up winning this argument, which kind of makes sense. I would kind of expect them to be the people who are representing the people. And they say, look, you’re going to let the people say whether it’s war or not, because if you don’t, then we’re going to screw up your levy. And then who’s going to fight for you, Senate? Who, who?
Dr G 17:56 Dear Lucretia, I didn’t sign up for the levy this year. But somehow I’m still in the battlefield. I don’t know how it happened.
Dr Rad 18:03 I am apart from you. And it is so painful, because I do not know why.
Dr G 18:10 I didn’t sign up for this. And I don’t know why I’m here.
Dr Rad 18:14 So what ends up happening is and this is a bit weird, Livy, or at least the versions of it that I’m reading, so it might be a typo. I probably should have checked the Latin I was a bit slack and I didn’t, the consul Quinctius, which is weird, because we haven’t mentioned a Quinctius in this year.
Dr G 18:30 Yeah, that’s a surprise. Where does it Quinctius? Where is he coming from?
Dr Rad 18:35 I’m wondering if he means like the ex-consul Quinctius, that’s something I probably should have checked in the Latin that me. But anyway, he’s forced to present the question of war to the people. And you know what, it all ends up exactly how they wanted it anyway, because the centuries all vote for war anyway.
Dr G 18:52 Well, well, well. So I mean, it turns out that, in actuality, flesh rabbits, cause we’re still not really sure what’s going on, that the Senate gets their way by using the very levers that it already possesses in order to ensure that the people do what they want them to do, because we know that that voting system is I mean, by any measure of a modern standard completely rigged.
This this artificial tension. It’s really probably not anywhere near as dramatic as it sounds.
The people agree to the thing that they’ve been convinced to agree to, and war shall proceed.
Dr Rad 19:35 Yeah. And the rich people have most of the say.
Dr G 19:39 Hmm.
Dr Rad 19:39 Either way. Either way you look at it.
Dr G 19:42 I mean, does it sound like the modern world?
Dr Rad 19:45 I don’t know. The modern world is just such a delight filled with equality and justice.
Dr G 19:52 Indeed.
Dr Rad 19:54 So this takes me to the year that I’ve been very excited to get to for actually a number of episodes.
Dr G 20:00 Oh, okay, well hold that thought. I only have, I only have one more detail to add about this year.
Dr Rad 20:06 I was going to say, what detail are you adding?
Dr G 20:09 Before we vacate 427, I just want to draw attention to what appears to be the naming conventions in some of the Fasti records that we have attached to this year for Mr. Armpit himself. Ahala. Yeah, because in the Greek this comes through as Axilla. And in one of the Latin Fastis that comes through as Achillo. So we get this sense that there is a potential sort of like Achillius naming convention that might be coming through here where Ahala has been substituted in instead, or there’s been a merging of those names over time. Anyway. Yeah, not that I see this guy as being in any way resemblance of Achilles. But, I mean, we don’t really know what he did. But I thought it was an interesting little detail.
Dr Rad 21:09 Yeah, like until he has a temper tantrum and really stuffs things up for everyone, I’m not convinced.
Dr G 21:15 The other thing that’s worth noting is Diodorus Siculus gets the names right for both consuls this year.
Dr Rad 21:22 Wow.
Dr G 21:25 Yeah, bringing his a game to this year.
Dr Rad 21:28 He is. All right. So that takes us to 426 BCE. At last!
Dr G 21:34 We’re here this year is filled with drama, and people and potentially lots of stuff.
Dr Rad 21:41 Absolutely. So I don’t know about you, Dr. G. But instead of consuls, I’ve got military tribunes with consular power.
Dr G 21:48 Oh, yes. I got some of those as well.
Dr Rad 21:51 Alright, tell me.
Dr G 21:52 So we have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus,
Dr Rad 21:57 Who might be the Quinctius who Livy is talking about
Dr G 21:59 Indeed, in the previous year.
Dr Rad 22:02 Yeah.
Dr G 22:02 So he has been consul twice so far, 431 and in 428, and is now back in this new position. With consular power. We have Gaius Furius Pacilus Fusus.
Dr Rad 22:19 Yeah, it’s been ages since we had a Furius – whoo!
Dr G 22:23 A Furius returns.
Dr Rad 22:24 Yeah.
Dr G 22:25 And he was apparently also previously consul in 441, so this guy’s gotta be getting on a little bit, because it’s been a while.
Dr Rad 22:32 Yeah, it has.
Dr G 22:33 And he was also censor in 435. So they’ve done quite a few censorships as well. It’s been, it’s been tough times for the Romans. Our third military tribune with consular power is Marcus Postumius Albinus Regillensis. A new guy in town. Don’t be fooled all of those names add up to somebody different. And Aulus Cornelius Cossus, the best looking Roman that everybody’s ever known about.
Dr Rad 23:04 Absolutely.
Dr G 23:05 Very famous. Is this the year he’s famous for?
Dr Rad 23:10 I think it might be. We also have a dictator, don’t we?
Dr G 23:15 Yeah. So this year, it gets out of hand. So the thing that we tend to assume with military tribunes with consular power is that there is a lot of conflict going on, and Rome doesn’t know how to deal with it anymore. And they need more consuls, essentially. And so they’ve whacked a whole bunch of those people into play. Turns out or it seems initially just from reading this list that that is not enough to deal with this situation and a dictator is required. And this is Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus.
Dr Rad 23:45 A familiar name.
Dr G 23:46 Yeah, he was part of the special commission in 428. So just a couple of years ago, and you know this name crops up a little bit as well. Was he also the dictator of 437 and 434? Was he milit- was he military tribune in 438? It’s a common name. So he has a master of the horse and we see very quickly the return of Aulus Cornelius Cossus getting apparently upgraded from a military tribune with consular power to master the horse.
Dr Rad 24:20 I think these guys are Batman and Robin I think that they are the dynamic duo of this decade.
Dr G 24:26 I can’t possibly do it without your Cossus. Would you join me? Yes, sir.
Dr Rad 24:31 All right, well,
Dr G 24:32 oh wait oh wait, because apparently we also have a legate as well
Dr Rad 24:38 Okay
Dr G 24:39 Which is Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus. So, so we have this weird sort of, I would say just looking at this list that we are looking at some real confusion from our annalistic sources and our fasti source material. Very confusing. We’ve either got many people in multiple roles, or we’ve got a collapse in the chronology and people don’t know how to separate the years out into the individual pieces, and they’ve just lumped them all in together and they’re like, You know what? I’ll make it work.
Dr Rad 25:13 Yeah, I think that you can see this very much, because if you actually look at what Livy says, rather than look at Broughton’s record of the magistrates. Livy explicitly says that Titus Quinctius Poenas was consul in the previous year. So that’s a bit weird. And then we’ve got Gaius Furius, Marcus Postumius, Aulua Cornelius Cossus all serving as military tribunes. Now, what they do is they’re going to divide and conquer, Dr. G. So Cossus is placed in charge of the city of Rome itself, and the rest of the military tribunes start organising the levy because they of course, are going to go and kick Veii’s butt and it is a big butt. There is a problem. Yeah, there is a problem. You’ve got three of these guys. They’re, I imagine, pretty typical Roman elites. They’re all very confident in their own opinion, and they refuse to compromise. And so they very quickly start disagreeing with each other, which means that there’s a little sliver of light for the people of Veii, because this is going to be undermining for the whole Roman war effort. The army is really confused because they’re being given different instructions, different orders, you know, some of them are saying, now go sound the charge other than saying no, not yet. Stay in place. It’s just it’s just a big mess where he’s messy us at a time like this. He’s the man has a job. Yeah. So the Romans are in terrible trouble. They flee back to their camp. They’re not really physically injured or anything, but they are injured on the inside, because there is nothing more humiliating or shameful for a Roman soldier than having to tuck his tail between his legs and run back to his camp without having dominated over the entity.
Dr G 27:09 It is tough out there, isn’t it.
Dr Rad 27:12 Yeah, so the Romans are sitting around, crushed, forlorn, heartbroken deal to lose They’re the heroes in this story. They never lose.
Dr G 27:22 I got no spoils and I got nothing to send, ya.
Dr Rad 27:27 Now the people back in the city are so irritated. You can’t explain how irritated they are with the military tribunes and they’re like, you know what, forget you guys, you are useless. It’s time for a dictator. Now, it seems like once again, we have a bit of an argument about exactly how or even if this could come about, some people were saying earlier consul can name a dictator. And do we have a consul? No, we do not.
Dr G 28:01 No, but we do have lots of military tribunes with consular power. And if they have the consular power, that might mean they’re they’re able to do the thing. And
Dr Rad 28:11 I think you’re missing the point, they’re not a consul.
Dr G 28:16 Well, what’s the point of them having consular power if they can’t use it? Dionysius of Halicarnassus does have a little excerpt here.
Dr Rad 28:26 Oh, okay.
Dr G 28:28 Yeah. And he talks about when Aulua Cornelius Cossus was consul for the second time.
Dr Rad 28:38 Okay.
Dr G 28:39 And that’s problematic for a whole bunch of reasons.
Dr Rad 28:42 Sure.
Dr G 28:43 Partly because maybe what he goes on to say, should really go back to 428. Right, but we’re in maybe 426 as well. So for instance, there’s a whole bunch of sort of like Dionysius comes back, but like to what value because he talks about a land that has suffered from a severe drought, all the moisture, and the flowing streams have dried up so you know, the echoes of Livy here?
Dr Rad 29:16 Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 29:17 The sheep, beasts of burden, and cattle have disappeared.
Dr Rad 29:21 Oh, this all sounds very familiar. Don’t take me back there!
Dr G 29:26 Humans have been visited by many diseases.
Dr Rad 29:28 Yeah, yeah. Deja vu.
Dr G 29:31 Particularly the mange
Dr Rad 29:34 oh my god,
Dr G 29:35 yeah, dreadful pains in the skin with its itchings and ulcerations, a most pitable affliction, and the cause of the speediest of deaths. I mean, it doesn’t sound like mange, it sounds like Ebola, but I’ll give it to them. They’re calling it as they see it. But we have this issue because he talks about this is the time period when Cossus and Quinctius are consuls together.
Dr Rad 29:59 Hmm
Dr G 30:00 And that’s that’s a weird thing to say. But they’re definitely both military tribunes with consular power right now.
Dr Rad 30:08 Yeah, look, I think I can help you out here. It’s actually quite straightforward. Dionysius is wrong and Livy is right.
Dr G 30:15 Wow
Dr Rad 30:15 it’s just really obvious and I’m glad I could clear it up for you and everyone.
Dr G 30:26 I don’t know if I’m gonna buy what you’re putting down but
Dr Rad 30:30 All right, is that is that all the Dionysius has to say?
Dr G 30:32 Yeah, look, I mean, things get pretty wayward for me in this year in terms of source material. Just to give you a sense of like, where this is going, I’ve got some Diodorus Siculus. I’ve got some Valerius Maximus, I’ve got some Frontinus. Two different passages from Frontinus. I’ve got Florus, I’ve got Aurelius Victor, Pseudo-Aurelius Victor and Orosius.
Dr Rad 30:55 Okay
Dr G 30:55 So it’s all manner of craziness over here for like, trying to figure out what to do with this year. But it tells you that something’s gonna happen, I think. And you might know what it is, even though I’ve got no idea despite all the sources I looked at.
Dr Rad 31:09 I think I do. So we’ve gotten this argument about whether you actually consul to name a dictator, so they ended up turning to the augurs which I thought would be something that would excite you. So, the augurs are a religious position, do you want to tell us a bit about what it is that they do? I had, I hear it’s something to do with the bird life?
Dr G 31:31 Yeah, look, it’s the sort of thing that could go wrong if you decide to not follow the rituals like they did a couple of years ago. You know, like, imagine if you decided to start reading the bird signs differently. The augurs have a very specific role. So part of it is dividing up the sky into quadrants, first of all, and then looking and observing the way that birds move in the sky to determine the will of the gods. And the reason why you might be like, I mean, I’ve seen birds fly, not that interesting. But one of the things that they’re really interested in is those murmurations that you get of starlings as they shift through the air, which are really quite poetic and beautiful. And they’re considered to tell us something, but they’re interested in all variety of bird life really, vultures, eagles, whatever they can see, it’s all got some sort of meaning. And the augurs have been integral to the Roman’s self definition since time in memorial
Dr Rad 32:34 Indeed they have. So the augurs are consulted, and they make sure that the signs say that it is not only a council who could name a dictator.
Dr G 32:45 Well, that makes it easy.
Dr Rad 32:46 Yeah. So Aulua Cornelius Cossus picks Mamercus Aemilius as dictator and Mamercus Aemilius then names Cossus as his master of the horse. Aren’t they are adorable.
Dr G 33:00 These two like, will you be my buddy? I’ll be your buddy. If you’ll be my buddy.
Dr Rad 33:05 It’s a bromance to last the centuries, Dr G. Yeah. So now, just a bit of a recap here. Lest we forget the last time that we were talking about Mamercus Aemilius which okay, there are some question marks about whether we should have been talking about him in that time period. but we were, he was taken down by the censors in a pretty devastating way. He basically I mean, they basically took away some of his key rights as a citizen, like they kicked him out of his tribe.
Dr G 33:35 Intense.
Dr Rad 33:37 Yeah.
Dr G 33:38 But he seems to have bounced back from this.
Dr Rad 33:41 Well, this is the thing Livy comments that this guy was so amazing, that he just rises to the top when it’s a dangerous time for Rome. You know, I mean, suck it censors. The best revenge is a life well lived. You know, you can’t take it away from me.
Dr G 33:58 He must be charismatic, I’m guessing.
Dr Rad 34:01 I think so. Livy was all over him the last time like when we were talking about what the census did to him live, he was clearly devastated. And now he’s all happy again. Anyway, the people have they are thrilled in the meantime, because they’ve done so well against Rome. They’re like, oh, my god, this is amazing. So they send out word to other Etruscan cities, they’re like, yeah, we didn’t just take down one Roman commander, we took down three in just one battle, only. The Etruscans are not interested. They’re like, whatever.
Dr G 34:35 I wonder what the Etruscans by and large, are really doing. I mean, we know that they’re located generally, to the north, but Veii is like their most southern significant outpost. Yeah. And they really don’t tend to do a lot of reinforcement, or at least not in this period.
Dr Rad 34:52 Look, let that be a lesson to you. It’s the same issues that the Greeks had: unity. Unity is what is important. Don’t go back to each other up because you do anyway. So the Etruscans are not interested. However, there are some people who are interested in joining their cause because of course, whenever there’s this kind of thing going on, like reading whatever, there is bougie aplenty for everyone. So officially, not many people are interested, but there are some. And would you be shocked to know that one of the places that decide that they might join in is none other than Fidenae?
Dr G 35:35 Oh, colour me surprised. This is a turn in the narrative I was not expecting.
Dr Rad 35:40 Yep. So Fidenae. I mean, god, what is it at this point in time, it’s been going backwards and forwards with its allegiances so many times between Rome and the people of Veii I can’t even tell what ethnicity the people there would have been.
Dr G 35:55 Look like everybody in this region. They’re Italians.
Dr Rad 35:59 Okay, yes. Anyway, so they decided they’re going to throw their lot in with Veii. Again, because it went so well, the last time.
Dr G 36:07 Well look, to be honest, I think Fidenae had been pretty consistent in their desire to get away from Rome for at least a few years now. And they’ve been forced and coerced by the Romans back into the fold. And at every opportunity, they’d be like, nah, I’m with those guys.
Dr Rad 36:25 How dare you provide an anti imperial narrative when I’m trying to make Rome look good?
Dr G 36:32 I’ve got nothing to say to that.
Dr Rad 36:34 Dad, dad, dad, dad out data.
Dr G 36:38 I mean, anyway, they’re working on it.
Dr Rad 36:41 Anyway, so Fidenae, obviously, as you say, not happy with what’s going on. But they decided to do it in style, just like they did the first time. So lest we forget, the really big conflict that we talked about, which may or may not have happened about 10 years ago, was really kicked off when the people of Fidenae murdered the Roman ambassadors. This time, they decide they’re going to slaughter all the new settlers.
Dr G 37:11 Well, well, well, I mean, yeah, this is bad news. But it does echo very nicely what has previously happened.
Dr Rad 37:22 Yeah, I mean, I think we can understand why scholars are like, what is going on here? Did this really happen again? Or is there some confusion in the narrative because there are a lot of similar notes that are being struck here.
Dr G 37:37 And there’s also the sense of like, I mean, this is yet again, another candidate for the year that Cossus does the business with killing Lars Tolumnius? That guy keeps coming back from the dead. Tell you what,
Dr Rad 37:52 Well he hasn’t been mentioned by name. But yes. Anyway, so there’s a bit of a debate about where they’re going to set up their headquarters. Veii or Fidenae, but they decided that Fidenae was more suitable. So the people of Veii head on over there and set up. The Romans are freaking out.
Dr G 38:09 And this and fair enough, because it’s on. As I’ve noted before, like Fidenae sits on the opposite side of the Tiber, from Veii, which means that it technically sits on the Roman side of the Tiber. And the Tiber is considered this, like, you know, the point between the two territories. And so if you’ve got that foothold in Fidenae and the Fidenese, like let down their little bridge, or whatever, or the who knows how they did it, and they’re like, come across, Veii come across, it’s like you’re letting the foxes into the chicken coop of Rome.
Dr Rad 38:47 Yeah, I get ya. So Veii recall their forces from Veii who aren’t in a great mood. They’re pretty depressed, to be honest. Because things haven’t gone well until then. And they set up camp just outside the Colline gate. One of the many ways that you can get into Rome which apparently is walls at this point in time,
Dr G 39:07 Well, yeah, and they and the Colline gate is at that side of room that will lead them directly to Fidenae. So all makes sense.
Dr Rad 39:14 Yeah, absolutely. So they make sure everything’s pretty fortified. You know, they do the typical thing arms, men placed along the walls. They also kind of say, right, everybody stop what you’re doing. Pay attention. So business in the courts stop shops close. Livy says that Rome ends up looking more like a military camp than a city at this point in time. The dictator now starts to get down to what he was brought in to do in the first place. He dispatches heralds to go through all the streets of Rome, to round them all up because they’re all terrified and cowering. Take them to an assembly. When they get there. He is furious with them for being so quick to think that Rome is actually going to be defeated. How dare they? Rome had beaten Veii six times and captured Fidenae so many times he can’t even count for heaven’s sakes. Get a grip. And they didn’t lose just recently because their army was weak. They lost because their commanders were arguing. Big difference.
Dr G 40:13 And now, now they have a dictator, there’s gonna be no more arguing and only victory.
Dr Rad 40:32 Exactly. And he says, You just wait guys, you will see that the men who appointed me as dictator have done an amazing thing for Rome because I am awesome. Everybody thinks so. Especially Livy!
Dr G 40:46 Also Cossus the man who appointed him.
Dr Rad 40:49 Exactly and those who tried to ruin him had done the biggest disservice to the state. Hint, hint, censors, need some ointment for that burn. So Mamercus then makes an offering to the gods. Again, this is all sounding very familiar, but not not like it’s not standard practice. I was gonna say
Dr G 41:13 I mean, I mean that’s familiar but to be expected.
Dr Rad 41:16 Yes, absolutely. Marches out sets up camp near Fidenae, make sure that he is shielded by mountains on one side and protected by the Tiber on the other so strategically sound position, he orders his lieutenant to secure the mountains and to secretly sneak sneak sneak occupy the riches behind the enemy. So that’s Titus Quinctius Poenas. So he puts on his sneakers, he gets all the men following him to put on their sneakers. And they are, are over to that location. So the next day, the enemy are feeling pretty confident because of course of everything that’s been happening, they’re ready to fight. The Romans are like, you got lucky. Thank you very much. Mamercus, however, he is not going to be rushed by these people. He’s not impetuous, he is wise. So he’s going to wait until he’s got all his ducks lined up in a row. He needs to make sure that Quinctius has made it to the ridge so that he’s secretly in position.
Dr G 42:22 Yeah, it’s one of those powerful things going into battle to be the one making the decisions.
Dr Rad 42:28 Yeah. And it’s then that he decides, okay, I think I’m almost ready. I’m going to take my infantry and against the enemy. And I’m going to do it really quickly at speed, like, whoo, you blink and we’re there.
Dr G 42:42 Guys, I want you to sprint on my command.
Dr Rad 42:44 Now notice I did say infantry, because he has a special plan for the cavalry. Now, naturally, master of the horse does seem to have some sort of connection to cavalry. And so Cossus is in charge of the cavalry. He says, don’t follow me. I want you to wait and not join the battle until you get an order from me. I need to keep the cavalry from coming in. And so just the right moment, and then it’s going to be the biggest thing you’ve ever seen, Cossus. Do you remember how awesome you were? You killed a freaking king, man, last time? I can’t even wait to see you at the head of the cavalry. This is gonna be awesome. He actually says that to him.
Dr G 43:32 Yeah, okay, so in Livy’s account. Lars Tolumnius is definitely already, well dead.
Dr Rad 43:42 Oh, yeah. He’s just like, he’s just like, look, remember how amazing you were the last time we went battle together, man. Let’s bring that energy again. Let’s get the band back together. Batman and Robin – Whoo. Whoo.
Dr G 43:52 It’s gonna be great.
Dr Rad 43:55 They jump together and they chest touch but because they’re wearing some sort of armour, it doesn’t go too well.
Dr G 44:01 Yeah
Dr Rad 44:01 I’m just kidding. All right, so the battle commences – it is fierce. The Romans are so mad because of the murder of the colonists. And the fact that the Fidenates clearly have no honour. They’re just murderers and traitors, and the people of Veii just faithless breakers of truces. Disgusting, they are Spurius Furius on the scale of anger. That is how angry they are. Now, the people of Veii, the Fidenates they are like completely blindsided in some ways because the Romans are just so angry and they’ve hit them so hard that at first, they are taken aback. Yeah, I was gonna say
Dr G 44:43 this is gonna be shocking feeling the full force of this anger and particularly this pairing of our dictator and our master of the horse being such buddy buddies as well.
Dr Rad 44:55 Yeah, exactly. Anyway, but then the Romans had a moment where they’re a bit shaken, because the gates of Fidenae open and what’s described very vaguely as a new type of army comes pouring out of the gate. Oh,
Dr G 45:09 I have I have some detail on this.
Dr Rad 45:12 Okay, go ahead. There’s a bit of a spoiler with this one isn’t there?
Dr G 45:15 There might be there might be. I have a little snippet from Frontinus who talks about, and interestingly, like the dates are a little bit mixed up, so he talks about this moment where the Faliscans and the Tarquinians disguise themselves as priests
Dr Rad 45:35 Oh
Dr G 45:35 and held torches and snakes in front of them like the Furies and that this tactic and this is, this is a spoiler for 356 BCE. This panics, the Romans, and he says that this there is an occasion where the men of Veii and Fidenae do the same thing. They dress themselves up as priests, grab some torches, grab some snakes, goodness knows, and wander out towards the army of the Romans. And put the fear of the gods into them!
Dr Rad 46:17 Yeah, I definitely get the sense that there is something going on here. I must admit, this is one of those things where I probably should have again, checked the Latin but we all know how good my Latin is. So it probably wouldn’t have helped. But yeah, there’s definitely something unexpected. It’s not just the fact that the enemies coming out with blazing torches, it as you say they’re dressed up some way, or I’ve even read somewhere in one of the academics, I was looking at that maybe it was like they thought they were facing women. But anyway, there’s something
Dr G 46:43 Wow, that would be enough to make the men turn tail and run wouldn’t it. They’re like, Oh, yeah. Oh, the women have come out.
Dr Rad 46:52 But anyway, they’re definitely whoever they are. And however they’re dressed that they are bearing blazing torches as weapons and the Romans are momentarily stunned. It’s at this moment that Mamercus is like, right, let’s get Cossus and Quinctius into action, as well as turning to the troops that are around him, you know, in the battlefield, and like trying to, you know, get them to like, get back into the spirit. Like, come on, step out of it. This isn’t a big deal. Like
Dr G 47:20 They’re men dressed up as women. They’re not the Furies at all, those aren’t real snakes.
Dr Rad 47:25 Yeah. So he hurries over to the left flank, which is the most intimidated away, or the fire gives them a massive pep talk. Like, remember, you are Romans, remember your glorious ancestors. Remember your courage. And this is all the weapon that you need. Now unleash it against them, set Fidenae alight, don’t let them let take you on fire. Or something to that effect. The Romans are encouraged by this because he’s apparently just the kind of guy that can just say something and they do it. So they start seizing torches by force, or they pick up ones that have been dropped or, you know, when someone being killed or time being careless or something like that. And then of course, we’ve got Cossus, right. Now, apparently, and this is a direct quote, he invented a new kind of cavalry fighting, and that he told his troops to take the bridles off their horses, and just charge into the fire. And apparently it was, so there was just so many of them that apparently, you know the chaos of battle, all that kind of stuff, they can barely see you with everything that’s going on.
Dr G 48:33 That seems like a really bad idea, removing the bridles from the horses as they’re about to charge the cavalry unit into fire.
Dr Rad 48:44 Nonsense, Dr G. It’s glorious, and it’s magnificent success!
Dr G 48:49 Look, let’s just think about this realistically. Most animals have a healthy respect and fear of fire. A bridleless horse is a horse that you cannot change the direction of because it’s going to run whichever way that it wants, unless you’ve trained it to be controlled by the stirrups alone, which is a whole other thing entirely. And it doesn’t sound like they’ve got that. It just seems like madness, Cossus what are you doing?
Dr Rad 49:14 Actually, as a side note, and I could be wrong here because this is something that’s just come to me out of nowhere. I’m almost 100% sure that the Romans did not ride with stirrups, not at this point in time and
Dr G 49:27 yeah, so so it’s bridles or nothing
Dr Rad 49:31 It’s your thighs, god dammit, Suzanne Somers would be proud.
Dr G 49:35 Well, well well
Dr Rad 49:36 Yeah. Anyway, the horses are apparently not frightened. The Romans are not frightened. The cavalry ends up just eating up huge amounts of the enemy just knocking them out of the battle. Then Quinctius makes his attack – the enemy is trapped. They have nowhere to flee. There’s nowhere to go. They’re pinned in all around. So the people of Veii and the Fidenates, they’re just running around in chaotic circles. The people of Veii, they’re trying to get to the Tiber and the Fidenates are trying to get to their city. But a lot of them are just running in the wrong directions, or they can’t go where they want to go. And they just ran into the very worst parts of the battle. So they’re either killed because they’re in the battlefield, or they drown trying to escape. The Romans, of course show no mercy, they are going to recapture that city if it kills them. So they enter the city, they make their way to the wall, and they send the signals say that Fidenae was captured. Again.
Ooo boy
Mamercus was in the camp of the enemy, with all his man, when this signal sort of goes up. The soldiers are really keen to be like, Yeah, cool. Let’s get pillaging this is what we came for. Mamercus says, look, let’s just stay calm, be methodical, takes them to the city. Once they’re inside, Mamerucs can see that the enemy are trying to reach the Citadel there. And they make sure that they basically finish them off. So there’s just slaughter everywhere until finally the enemy surrenders. And then they can loot and pillage and sack the city and the camp.
Dr G 51:22 Oh, wow. All right, this is slightly different in some of the details then. And I’ll admit, I’ve got some pretty disparate source material at my disposal. And so it’s probably not a surprise that they’re quite different. So I’ve got Florus. Yeah, who is probably most famous for doing an epitome of Livy.
Dr Rad 51:47 I was gonna say, surely that means that you should agree with everything I say.
Dr G 51:52 And you’d be surprised, and but it may be the case that the detail that Florus is providing here actually belongs to maybe a later time period, though there does seem to be a bit of overlap in the detail.
Dr Rad 52:03 Right
Dr G 52:04 So he talks about the people of Fidenae are not a match for the Romans. And what they had done is they armed themselves with torches, and they’d put on a variety of fillets, so like head gear, resembling serpents, so we’ve got that serpent reference again. Yeah, and they had marched forth like Furies. And so, so far, there’s a little bit of match up there. But he also says that their funereal attire was an omen of their overthrow.
Dr Rad 52:36 Oh
Dr G 52:37 And also seems to indicate that at some point, and maybe this is anachronistic, and maybe it’s a bit of a spoiler for things to come, that Fidenae is consumed by its own flames.
Dr Rad 52:51 Ah, well, I guess that’s, that’s, I think that all kind of matches up really, we’ve got these confusing costumes, which kind of are evoking female. You know, in the way they’re presenting themselves. We’ve got torches, we’ve got fire. I can see some similarities there.
Dr G 53:11 It’s tricky. It’s tricky.
Dr Rad 53:13 Back in my account, the cavalry man and the centurions all draw lots for a single captive each. So this is one of the sad parts obviously, of ancient warfare that the survivors of the sorts of wars usually ended up being captured and sold into slavery, if they’re not killed. Anyone who had received notices fighting with exceptional bravery received two, and then whatever was leftover was sold off at auction. So sad. It’s very sad. This is a this sounds like a lot of people. I mean, obviously, it’s not an on quite a scale that Livy would probably like us to imagine, but it still sounds like a decent amount of people that are being taken into slavery here.
Dr G 53:59 Yeah, this. I mean, it’s pretty typical, I suppose. And depending on how much Rome might be interested in punishing somewhere that it has taken might depend on how many people they decide to then co opt into slavery.
Dr Rad 54:14 This is true.
Dr G 54:15 So if they’re really looking to, to have an impact on Fidenae’s ability to do anything, they might take most people as slaves.
Dr Rad 54:24 This is very true. So, unlike the previous time in 437, when Mamercus and Cossus came together in a battle against these two places, after the murder of the ambassadors, etc. Mamercus is the one that returns to the city in glory. Now, obviously, he wasn’t completely ignored last time because he was also in a position of power then, but this time, there is no Lars Tolumnius for Cossus to have slain in single combat. And so while Cossus has done very well. Mamercus gets to triumph. And he and Cossus give up their power as dictator and master the horse. And apparently this has all happened in 16 days.
Dr G 55:10 Wow. Yeah, that was Fast. Yeah. Look, nothing like the efficiency of a dictator in ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 55:17 I know they’re in and they’re out. So lovely little detail right at the end here, Livy always throws these little bits in, he says that certain analysts – not of course, tell me who these certain analysts are – also mentioned, a naval battle in this war. And we did sort of talk about this when we were talking about the events of 437. And the confusion, mainly between these years. In that, there, it seems like the confusion might have come from the use of the term “classis”, that that that might have somehow given connotations that there was something to do with ships involved here. Whereas other people have said, no, this has more to do with who’s serving.
Dr G 56:04 I was gonna say, I mean, we’re pretty inland, are we talking about river boats?
Dr Rad 56:08 Perhaps perhaps. So Livy says, as if there was a naval battle, even in my own time, the river was not wide enough to accommodate ships or a naval battle like this. Or maybe there was like a ship. And it’s been exaggerated over time. And I’m going to finish with a direct quote from my translation, as so often happens, by those who added to the inscription the false claim of a naval victory. So..
Dr G 56:41 Okay, so the, he’s just introducing a whole level of doubt about any record to do with naval battles, and what appears to be like a fairly standard belief that the inscriptions are docked over time.
Dr Rad 56:56 Well, apparently, and this is in the notation of the translation I was using from the Loeb Classical Library. Apparently, they think that what he probably is referring to is an inscription that accompanied Mamercus’ portrait. So obviously, Mamercus is a pretty awesome guy, everybody loves him, of course, naturally, he would be represented somewhere in the city, and there would be an inscription there. So it seems that Livy is suggesting that there is something about a naval battle mentioned in this inscription, but that he thinks it’s been faked. And I guess that would be maybe by his family, like, maybe he’s descendants.
Dr G 57:36 I just feel like he’s not using his imagination enough. I mean, there is a river there. And just because you can’t fit an ocean going ship in the river, does not mean, you don’t have any naval warfare going on. And it’s like, I mean, I feel like I can see it now. It’s late at night. Somebody’s on the river. You know, somebody’s got to shoot arrows into the fleeing people from Veii, you know,
Dr Rad 58:04 Look Livy does concede that maybe there were some ships, but he’s like a naval battle. Are we really going to call that a naval battle?
Dr G 58:12 Well, I don’t know. I mean, they will have to come up with other words in the Latin for it, I suppose. But barring the fact that they haven’t come up with a river battle situation themselves, maybe naval battle is as good as they’ve got. It’s on the sea, it’s water.
Dr Rad 58:27 Yeah. Anyway, so this is how the conflict of this particular year with Veii, Fidenae and Rome comes to an end. But you can see why there are certainly a lot of similarities with what we described in 437. Not everybody, as you said, believes that Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus, was actually dictator, back in 437, when we first talked about it, and for some academics, they believe it would make more sense for Cossus to have killed Lars Tolumnius in this year only because, as a king, he’s obviously a hugely significant political figure. So it would kind of be a fitting end to the conflict that has stricken the region, if they kind of give up because they’ve lost their leader. And this is kind of why there’s maybe be confusion. It is obviously though a lot of speculation. And clearly our source material is so confused. I don’t know that any academic is ever going to prove beyond a doubt that their account is the right account.
Dr G 59:33 Oh, yeah, I think it would be very difficult to come to a really firm consensus on this. One of the problems that scholars face and part of the reason why people argue that maybe the stuff with Tolumnius happened in this year rather than the previous account is because Cossus is in this position as master of the horse. And prior to that, before taking on that role, he was is a military tribune with consular power. So the idea of the spolia opima, which is where you take the spoils from a military commander, as a military commander directly, so like one on one combat, you, as a commander have killed and slain the opposing commander, very rare, very difficult to do. Cossus is in a more senior command position in this moment in time than he was in that previous decade where he was pretty low down, he was like some sort of legate. And so it doesn’t seem reasonable that that would have counted as the moment. But this means that, like Livy gives us this whole different battle setup. Our later sources, some of which are epitomising Livy, are giving us very different details about what’s happening in this particular battle, versus what was happening in that previous battle. And there’s no way to reconcile those sorts of things. We know that our historians are sometimes making up a little bit of the detail in order to flesh things out and to give it that spice. But where those stories are coming from, whether they’re like from family traditions, or elsewhere, we’re not really sure. And even Livy, you know, throwing out the sort of like dissing the inscription. Amazing.
Dr Rad 1:01:23 Don’t believe it just because it’s carved in stone.
Dr G 1:01:27 I’ve seen that inscription. Rubbish. I tell you, rubbish.
Dr Rad 1:01:30 Anyway, and so I think this is finally, finally going to bring a little bit of a resolution to the question of Fidenae, I’m sure there’s going to be more conflict in this direction. But I think that the really big conflict is going to be resolved for a little bit of time. So
Dr G 1:01:54 This does seem to be a pretty bad defeat for them. So I guess time will tell I look forward to finding out what happens next.
Dr Rad 1:02:02 Absolutely. You know, that means, Dr G. I think it’s time for the partial pick.
Dr G 1:02:18 The partial pick, Rome has five categories, where they can score up to 10 golden eagles each. So if they max it out, and they’ve done the best that they possibly can. They will get 50 gold eagles. It’s time to find out. Our first category is military cloud.
Dr Rad 1:02:41 Well, I think we can definitely say they’ve got nothing but clout at the moment.
Dr G 1:02:45 It feels like a big 10, really, it’s a resounding-
Dr Rad 1:02:48 Well hang on
Dr G 1:02:51 In the end, it is a resounding defeat of the enemy. It is confusing how they get there.
Dr Rad 1:02:58 In the beginning, it’s definitely not. I don’t think we can quite give them a 10 out of 10. I feel like it’s got to be an eight.
Dr G 1:03:05 Yeah. So like the chaos leading into the dictatorship. All right. All right.
Dr Rad 1:03:11 They did get defeated three commanders in one battle.
Dr G 1:03:15 We all know those commanders were rubbish. They were never going to come to anything.
Dr Rad 1:03:18 Were they though? Were they?
Dr G 1:03:22 Hard to know, but certainly I take your point. Fine. I won’t give them 10.
Dr Rad 1:03:27 Okay, eight it is
Dr G 1:03:29 Diplomacy?
Dr Rad 1:03:31 No. Nobody has any sense of diplomacy in this episode.
Dr G 1:03:38 Expansion?
Dr Rad 1:03:42 I can’t even remember what we said last time that they recaptured Fidenae, which is meant to be theirs in the first place.
Dr G 1:03:46 Yeah. I don’t think that counts as expansion.
Dr Rad 1:03:48 No, I don’t think so. Particularly not the second time they recapture it.
Dr G 1:03:53 Yeah, it’s beginning to look careless, ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 1:03:57 I shouldn’t even say the second time. It’s way more than two.
Dr G 1:04:00 Yeah, who knows where we’re up to with that. So expansion is a no. All right. Virtus?
Dr Rad 1:04:08 Okay.
Dr G 1:04:09 Hmm.
Dr Rad 1:04:11 I feel like Mamercus has got some things going on here.
Dr G 1:04:14 He did do some resounding sort of speechifying.
Dr Rad 1:04:17 I think Livy is it real pains to redeem this guy, which is weird, because he then disses his inscription at the end. I mean, he doesn’t name Mamercus personally, I’m speculating based on what I’ve read in the translation. But yeah, he definitely seems very keen on him. I think this guy is a big deal.
Dr G 1:04:36 Mm hmm.
Dr Rad 1:04:37 Yeah. And I think I think he could say that all the speechifying he’s done, the careful planning, he gets a triumph. I mean, it’s not maybe the most impressive most original thing we’ve ever seen. But yeah,
Dr G 1:04:50 Yeah. I’m just trying to think about it in terms of like, like, literal virtus, where it’s kind of like, I mean, these are all the things that are kind of expected of a Roman military commander, and he does do them and they go well, so I suppose that does count. And then you’ve got Cossus, who sort of goes a bit wild, it would seem, with his like, just take those bridles off the horses, and let’s like the launch in there, and it works. And in a way, I wonder if that is a greater demonstration of virtus in the Roman perception of like really taking that sort of risk, and it really working out in the heat of battle. So like, afterwards, Mamercus is getting sort of lauded with the triumph and that sort of thing. But it might be the case that people like that Cossus guy though. Wild.
Dr Rad 1:05:43 Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is true. And this is exactly what happened the previous time, which is why we see those weird parallels right, where Mamercus is technically in charge to the previous time as well. And yet, it’s Cossus to gets most of the attention because he does something that no one is expecting.
Dr G 1:06:02 Yeah, so
Dr Rad 1:06:03 Or he fights with particular vigour.
Dr G 1:06:06 And so maybe this is the power of this duo is that like they work best together and Cossus always just slightly by accident upstages Mamercus.
Dr Rad 1:06:18 But he doesn’t seem to mind I think Mamercus seems incredibly confident. He’s like, you kicked me out of my tribe. Look at me rescuing you, or when you’re in danger again, because I’m so amazing. And my plans always work out and I have the best team and everything I do is amazing. He doesn’t seem at all shaken.
Dr G 1:06:38 That’s true. There’s a firmness of the resolve. Yeah, look, maybe. I feel like maybe a six.
Dr Rad 1:06:46 Really?
Dr G 1:06:47 Yeah look, I mean, between the two of them. I don’t think I don’t think this is like the most
Dr Rad 1:06:53 impressive
Dr G 1:06:54 impressive kind of Roman virtus. It’s not like yeah, it’s it’s the expected kind of masculine embodiment stuff. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:07:06 All right. Okay, so we that takes us okay, so I get a six. All right. Next category,
Dr G 1:07:10 The citizen score.
Dr Rad 1:07:12 Oh, we really haven’t heard much about the citizens apart from the fact that they are annoyed with the military tribunals when they stuff up.
Dr G 1:07:20 But they’re also like, you know, like ever present, like there’s no way that Rome could have won this without bodies on the ground in the infantry in the cavalry and stuff like that. So yeah, they’re definitely there. And they do get to partake in those spoils as well.
Dr Rad 1:07:37 This is true, and it sounds like Cossus and, Quinctius, and Mamercus, are pretty popular. So there’s that too. So I’m gonna hedge and say a four, just because they weren’t very happy with the tribunes and their performance. And you know what, I can’t help but think that this is also a little convenient. That, you know, they’ve been pushing for military tribunes with consular power, and then they just get, you know, replaced with a dictator, because there doesn’t work out. But anyway, not that they were plebeians, but
Dr G 1:08:13 the more that you talk about it, the more it makes me think that maybe this is a lower than a four then because it’s like not only do they have to go to war, which is always a problem because people die. But they haven’t been very happy about the whole process anyway. And there was that moment where, what the Senate was kind of like, well, maybe we’ll decide whether it’s a war or not.
Dr Rad 1:08:32 Yeah, this is true.
Dr G 1:08:34 And the the citizens are like, excuse me?
Dr Rad 1:08:36 Yeah, maybe like a three. Although they do win that battle.
Dr G 1:08:39 That’s true. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:08:43 It’s a three or four for me.
Dr G 1:08:45 Let’s go with the three. I want Rome to really knock it out of the ballpark for the people and they’re not doing it this year.
Dr Rad 1:08:50 Fair enough. All right. Dr. G. That means we’ve ended up with a grand total of 17 out of 50 golden eagles.
Dr G 1:08:58 that’s actually more impressive than expected.
Dr Rad 1:09:01 Well, I knew this was going to be a good year because I knew Cossus and Mamercus were going to you know, be teaming up. So well done. Batman and Robin, well done. You have once again protected Gotham City and the citizens are safe to walk the street. Not at night, because that would be insane. But during the day
Dr G 1:09:20 At other times. Yeah, these two are classic. One hopes to see the duo again, although I have my doubts.
Dr Rad 1:09:32 All right. Well, thanks for taking a little trip into this bromance with me.
Dr G 1:09:36 Oh an absolute pleasure.
Dr Rad 1:09:42 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and the occasional bonus episode. However, there are other ways you can support our show. We have merch a collaboration with Bridget Clark on Gumroad. And we now also have a book. If you’d like to purchase a copy of Rex, the seven kings of Rome you can find the details on our website or you can head straight to Highlands Press and order a copy now. Today we’d like to send a special shout out to our patrons who pre-ordered this very book. And that’s Dana Erin and Divus Augustus, salve! However, if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell someone about our show or give us a five star review. These are not little gestures to us, they mean the world. So until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Dr G 1:11:22 Have you ever wondered how to cover up an axe in the head, Dr Rad?
Dr Rad 1:11:28 You know, I actually have.
Dr G 1:11:32 I told you that the Romans did it first.
Dr Rad 1:11:36 Oh, what? How?
Dr G 1:11:39 I know. Well, there’s this little thing that I think we could call regal assassination. Regicide, if you will. We wrote about it in a book together.
Dr Rad 1:11:52 We did?
Dr G 1:11:53 We certainly did. It is called Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome. And boy is it a romp through history. Packed with source detail, packed with salacious stories
Dr Rad 1:12:07 and packed with our trademark brand of humour.
Dr G 1:12:12 Yes, well where would we be in a book if it is not for our humour? If you would like to support our endeavours into podcastally research then we would love to treat you to Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome. Please
Dr Rad 1:12:33 head over to Highlands Press. If you would like to order a copy now.
Dr G 1:12:38 It should be delivered to you at some time in the future.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Partial Recap - 430s BCE
Mar 09, 2023
We recap the confusing details of the 430s BCE. Be careful – there’s a lot of dictators about!
This is a short, sharp, scripted overview of all the big events that defined the 430s BCE. If you’re inspired to delve into more details, all the episodes from this decade can be found in our Foundation of Rome series starting with Episode 127: The Assassination of Spurius Maelius.
The Partial Recap – 430s BCE
A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum. Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.
Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad
Dr G 0:34 and I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 430s BCE.
Dr G 1:12 I’m Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:14 And I’m Dr. Rad
Dr G 1:15 And this is our highlights addition of the 430s in Rome will take you through from 439 to 430. In an epitome of our normal episodes
Dr Rad 1:27 Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee. But Please be warned. The Roman world is a violent one
Dr G 1:34 Get ready for a re-cappuccino.
Dr Rad 2:02 439 BCE. In 439 BCE, the consuls were Agrippa Menenius Lanatus and Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus, Rome was still having issues with their green supply and 439 BCE. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they were having issues with the man who had tried to solve the green crisis and to be honest, the dates are blurry here. This is more 439 and 438. An equestrian named Spurius Maelius had used his private fortune to secure desperately needed corn, something that the officially appointed prefect of corn supply Lucius Minucius had failed to do. Spurius Maelius had allegedly been using his success with the grain to curry favour and after carefully building support amongst the plebs instal himself as monarch. Funnily enough Minucius was the one to uncover this dastardly plot. Jealous much? This may somehow connect to another version of events we have in which the people overthrew Minucius and put Maelius in his place. In this time of crisis, the Romans turned to Cincinnatus, that old war horse or did they? Officially Cincinnatus was made dictator and chose Gaius Servilius Ahala, whose name means Gaius Servilius ‘Armpit’, as the master of the horse, depending who you believe Ahala was either just a random elite man who was given a senatorial approval to kill Maelius, or he was sent by Cincinnatus to arrest the scheming Spurius. When Spurius decided not to go quietly, and when he screamed for help from the nearby plebs, Ahala decided to murder him on the spot. Naturally. Ahala and a band of young patricians reported the crime to Cincinnatus, who was thoroughly pleased that Maelius was dead. The populace were less thrilled and Cincinnatus summoned an assembly to explain exactly how Maelius’ murder went down. With Rome safe again, Maelius’ house was torn down. Too much evil plotting had gone down in there to leave it standing. It became a memorial named the Aquaemaelium to commemorate whatever he was supposedly doing. The rest of his property was donated to the public treasury. Again, according which account you believe some other traitors flesh rabbits may have found their heads detached for their bodies and displayed in the Forum. In the aftermath of the Spurius Maelius debacle, Lucius Minucius was given an ox and a gilded statue outside the Porta Trigamenia, he may also have been made a plebeian and an 11th tribune of the plebs just to keep an eye on them after this attempted coup business, but even Livy is unsure about this one. The tribunes certainly weren’t pleased that Minucius was being honoured, so they pushed to have military tribunes with consular power and 438 BCE. Come on pleb power! Ahala did not fare as well as Minucius going into “self imposed exile”. Wink. Looking to delve deeper into the details of 439 BCE, check out our Episode 127 The Assassination of Spurius Maelius.
Dr G 5:49 438 BCE in 438 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Mamercus Aemilius, Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and Lucius Julius Iullus. If the idea to have military tributes with consular power is to allow non elite Romans into the politics then we can call this year a fail. These guys are all patricians. It’s a tough time in Rome because the Roman colony of Fidenae decided to revolt and side with the Etruscan city of Veii, led by King Lars Tolumnius: disaster! To make matters worse, the Fidenates ended up murdering the ambassadors that the Romans sent to sort out this mess. Lars Tolumnius may have had something to do with this, but it is all very murky. The four slain ambassadors received statues which were erected at the public expense in Rome, lest we forget. Me thinks the Romans have vengeance on their mind. Jump into Episode 128 Mopping up Maelius, to catch all the details.
Dr Rad 7:31 437 BC in 437 BCE, the consuls were Marcus Geganius Macerinus and Lucius Sergius Fidenas. Rome was in crisis mode, so no one was causing issues at home, but a dictator was clearly needed. And Mamercus Aemilius was chosen for the job. Lucius Quictius Cincinnatus, son of the famous Cincinnatus, was selected as master of the horse. During the emotionally charged battle that followed, a really ridiculously good looking tribune from the Roman cavalry named Aulua Cornelius Cossus distinguished himself. Determined to make his family name proud, Cossus decided to take down the king of Veii. Tolumnius was wreaking havoc for the Romans, but not once Cossus was finished with him. Cossus did not just kill Tolumnius, he decapitated him. The Etruscans lost their nerve after the death of their King and were defeated. Cossus became known as the first man since King Romulus to defeat an enemy leader in single combat, and he dedicated his spoils to Jupiter Feretrius. The senate and the people agreed: all of this glory added up to a triumph for our dictator.
Dr G 9:15 436 BCE, in 436 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Papirius Crassus and Marcus Cornelius Maluginensis – what a mouthfull! The year began with some raids into enemy territory. We’re in familiar crowds now with the Romans and the Romans took some booty, both human and animal from Veii and the Faliscans, those bastards. The enemy was presumably busy licking their wounds, and so there was no actual battle to be had. At least no battles before Romans were struck down by a pestilence. Not to be stopped by disease, Spurius Maelius – a relative of our grain loving murder victim – decided to use his power as tribune of the plebs to prosecute Lucius Minucius and to confiscate the property of Servilius Ahala. Crazily, the people seem to have been quite indifferent to his efforts. Perhaps it was the worsening pestilence…
Dr Rad 10:21 435 BCE. In 435 BCE the consuls were Gaius Iulius and Lucius Verginius. After all that pesky illness, the patricians and plebeians were ready for a peaceful year, but the people of Fidenae had other ideas. Fidenae and Veii teamed up to create terror for the Romans with their pillaging, reaching the very gates of Rome. You know what this means? It’s time for a dictator. Quintus Servilius Priscus was made dictator with Postumius Aebutius Helva as master of the horse. Any male who could fight was called up and a battle ensued near Nomentum. The enemy retreated into the city of Fidenae, which was a hard nut to crack. But Servilius was no ordinary military strategist. Using clever diversionary tactics, he managed to seize control of the city. Back in Rome, the censors approved a new public building fittingly called the Villa Publica. This would be used to take the census. Just as exciting as siege warfare, clearly censors know how to party.
Dr G 11:35 Build a house for the very same.
434 BCE. Now things get pretty confusing around 434. The first problem, there seems to have been two sets of consuls. The consuls are variously listed as Gaius Julius Iullus, and Lucius Verginius Tricostus or Marcus Manlius Capitolinus and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Praetextatus. So imagine that so you know, so much Latin, no overlap of names. And to make matters even worse, there were also three military tributes with consular power listed for this year as well. Servius Cornelius Cossus, Marcus Manlius Capitolinus and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Praetextatus. And yes, you’re definitely starting to hear some overlapping names. This year was simply lousy with magistrates. The sources themselves seem quite confused over who was running the place. But whoever was in charge, they soon found themselves replaced by dictator Mamercus Aemilius and his master of the horse. Oulus – Aulus, I should say Postumius Tubertus. Mamercus was called in because it seemed like war might break out with Veii and some of their allies, but it all fizzled quite quickly. Mamercus therefore decided that he was going to change some things at home, he focused his attention on the censorship. These guys were too powerful. A law was proposed that would limit the censorship to a year and a half, that people were giddy with delight. But the censors now saw Mamercus as public enemy number one. They kicked him out of his tribe, and drastically increased his tax bill. Ouch.
Dr Rad 13:56 Hell know no fury like a censor scorned.
Dr G 14:01 What is this tax? It’s just for you, my friend. Lucky for the censors, Mamercus was content to take this one on the chin, or they may have found some of his devoted fans waiting for them in the forum with baseball bats and switch blades.
Dr Rad 14:44 433 BCE. In 433 BCE, the military tributes with consular power where Marcus Fabius Vibulanus, Marcus Folius Flaccinator, and Lucius Sergius Fidenas. The tribunes of the plebeians decided that this was a good year to start some trouble. They tried to block the consular elections and the rumours were apparently close to having to move to an interregnum. A compromise was reached and military tribunes with consular power were elected instead. But none of the men chosen were plebeians. The best laid plans. More political shenanigans may have ensued, but a serious epidemic struck the city so serious that a temple was given to Apollo on behalf of the people’s health. But many people died and the Romans were worried that widespread death would lead to famine, which would lead to more death. So they started searching high and low for grain which they could stockpile.
Dr G 16:09 432 BCE, and we’re back with some military tribunes with consular power, Lucius Pinarius Mamercinus, Lucius Furius Medullinus and Spurius Postumius Albus Regillensis. The disease that had affected the population in the previous year started to ease up and the Romans did not have to add famine to their list of worries as they were so damn organised. All of that stockpiled grain coming in handy. There were murmurings of war between Etruscans, the Volscians and Aequians and Rome, but it was decided to postpone any conflict for a year. The tribune of the plebs started strategizing about how they could get a plebeian elected as military tribune with consular power. It was crazy that only patricians had been elected so far. Somehow this led to a law being proposed by the tribunes that political candidates were not allowed to whiten their toga. In other words, no advertising the fact that you were running for office with your very shiny very white toga candida. To avoid dirty plebeians winning any more power, the patricians made sure that consuls were on the cards for the following year.
Dr Rad 17:56 431 BCE. In 431 BCE the consuls were Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus, and Gaius or Gnaeus Iulius Mento, and they apparently hated each other. The consuls really needed a strong army this year, so a levy was held under a lex sacrata, which meant that anyone who offended against this law was sacer to the gods. The Aequians and the Volscians set up their camps at Mount Algidus and seem to have strong armies in the field. The Romans were spooked or defeated in battle and didn’t want to talk about it, and the Senate decided to appoint a dictator. After all, so many young Romans had perished in the plague and the consuls were not a great team. However, the consuls did agree that a dictator was a terrible idea. In desperation Quintus Servilius Priscus, an elite Roman, appealed to the tribune of the plebs, and ask them to force the consuls to name a dictator. The consuls were livid. But finally it was decided by lot that Titus Quinctius should choose the dictator. Quinctius selected his father-in-law Aulus Postumius Tubertus, aka the “face of stone”. Lucius Julius was named master of the horse. A levy was declared and the Romans were ordered to focus all of their attention on the war effort. Postumius was just what the campaign needed. With his team and fellow elites, they managed to defeat both the Aequians and the Volscians. The only downer was the possible execution of Aulus Postumius’ son on his father’s orders. The “face of stone” strikes again! But nobody wants to believe this story. As a parting blow to his colleague, Gnaeus Julius dedicated the Temple of Apollo without consulting his colleague Quinctius. How rude.
Dr G 20:16 430 BCE. In this year the consuls were Lucius Papirius Crassus and Lucius Julius Iullus. A new law was introduced this year called The Papira Julia, which changed the valuation of fines by changing how they decided to count cattle. Those Romans will the excitement never end when it comes to their lawmaking! After their disastrous defeat in the previous year, the Aequians – surprise, surprise – managed to secure an eight year truce with Rome. Ahh, the bliss of peace. The Volscians on the other hand, were distracted by their own internal dispute, which made for an unusually peaceful end to the decade.
Dr Rad 21:25 And that was the 430s in ancient Rome. Or, was it?
Dr G 21:29 Wow, that is the big question. Remember, this has just been a highlights reel of the ancient sources and the decade that was so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes, you’d want to be jumping in at Episode 127 The Assassination of Spurius Maelius to join us for a deep dive into the decade that was the 430s BCE.
Dr Rad 22:00 Thank you for listening to this episode of The Partial Historians, we’d like to send an extra special thank you to all of our supporters, especially our Patreon and our Kofi donators. Thank you so much for helping keep the show going. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode - Our Top Ten at Ten
Mar 01, 2023
On the 1st March 2013, something momentous happened. We published our first episode of the Partial Historians podcast! Clearly, this is an event akin to Hannibal crossing the Alps or the expulsion of the kings.
Well, perhaps not quite. But it certainly changed our lives forever in ways that we could not imagine. Therefore, we decided to mark the occasion by getting together and discussing our Top Ten Moments from the Roman Republic thus far.
We hope you enjoy our chat about the Republic as much as we have enjoyed making this show for the past ten years.
Thanks to the talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our music.
Just a few photos of us together over the years. Are we partial to a dress up for the sake of Roman history? You betcha!
Automated Transcript
Dr Rad 0:00 That’s right isn’t just any bonus episode. Dr. G. It’s our anniversary episode. I know I can’t believe it. But we have been recording this podcast for 10 years as of today, the first of March.
Welcome to a special bonus episode of the Partial Historians. And this might just be the most special bonus episode that you will hear of this show for a long time. Not that you should stop listening or anything. But just because this is our 10 year anniversary show. That’s right. 10 years ago to this day, we released our very first episode. And so to mark that occasion, Dr. G, and I did what we did 10 years ago, which is we sat down, and we had a chat in our living room about Roman history. We hope that you enjoy the show.
Dr G 0:54 Hello and welcome to a fabulous bonus edition of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:04 And I am a 10 year old Dr. Rad
Dr G 1:08 10 years old.
Dr Rad 1:09 That’s right isn’t just any bonus episode. Dr. G.
Dr G 1:13 It’s our anniversary episode. I
Dr Rad 1:15 know I can’t believe it. But we have
Dr G 1:18 10 years old??
Dr Rad 1:23 the first of March.
Dr G 1:26 Look, there are marriages that do not last as long as this podcast.
Dr Rad 1:31 I know. And I felt we could not let this occasion pass without marking upon it. Because being independent podcasters as we are and have been for 10 years. I think that really the fact that we’re still here now actually has a lot to do with the fact that we are just determined in clueless.
Dr G 1:54 We shall persist regardless the circumstance. Well, I mean, that may be so but I think it is also the case genuinely that over time, we have found our audience, our beautiful listeners, they’re out there,
Dr Rad 2:08 I know. And we’re so incredibly grateful because we look back to 10 years ago, and it really doesn’t feel like 10 years ago because we even though we don’t release episodes as often as other podcasts because we are dependent, and we have to balance full time jobs and all that kind of stuff. At the same time. We actually haven’t taken a break. There hasn’t been a month where we haven’t released a podcast in 10 years, we have never stopped making the show.
Dr G 2:35 That is pretty consistent. I’m gonna give us a large pat on the back for that. Congratulations. For a while we were doing them every two weeks. I think that was a that was a period of early insanity, where we thought we had more time. And podcasting was not so strenuous.
Dr Rad 2:52 Yeah, because I mean that this is the thing. I was thinking back to our early days. And initially you and I had mooted the idea of starting a YouTube channel. But back in 2012, when we were initially having these discussions, that was a little out of our budget.
Dr G 3:08 It was it was and to be honest, who knows what would happen if we attempted to start a YouTube in 2012? It’s like the dark ages of YouTube.
Dr Rad 3:18 Exactly. But instead, we decided that we would start a podcast because it required a little bit less investment. And back in those days also a little bit less know how.
Dr G 3:27 Yeah, I look, I don’t know that it requires heaps of know how now, but we certainly do know more now.
Dr Rad 3:35 Yeah, definitely. But yeah, so we basically for an hour, if there’s a word that I say all the time? Of course, I have to say it on our turn. Yeah, I say basically a lot on the show. But we initially take that basically, just we’re recording our conversations, and we proudly did not edit our shows at all until I think about maybe three years ago.
Dr G 3:59 This is true. We did spend a long time not editing anything. Yeah. And and that my friends is the secret to an independent podcast.
Dr Rad 4:11 Yeah, but it wasn’t it wasn’t just because of time. I mean, we genuinely sat down I think to record our conversations. And I think that’s been one of our challenges as well. The fact is that you amuse me endlessly Dr. G, and I am what we call a laugh speaker naturally, as anybody who knows me in real life knows, I tend to laugh as I speak all the time, regardless, and I’m a teacher so there are a lot of people out there that have to listen to me teach history whilst simultaneously somehow
Dr G 4:42 I think that’s fine. It’s more like when it gets into like disciplining the students and you’re still laughing and that’s that’s the toughy.
Dr Rad 4:50 Ahh Yes, my my notorious laugh-yelling less heard on the podcast. But anyway, I think that that’s exactly it when we first started sitting down and having conversations it genuinely, I think it still is to a certain extent. But for a really long time, you and I were really just in a bubble, I felt like where I almost forgot we were recording. I just don’t have a great time talking to you. And therefore getting too excited, laughing too much being too loud.
Dr G 5:21 Oh, look, and I don’t think that’s a real issue. And I have to say that if we’re in this sort of compliment sandwich, which is this anniversary episode, and I feel like that’s where we, that I enjoy your company events. And I would not be able to turn up every time for 10 years and have such a good time. If it weren’t for you, my esteemed colleague.
Dr Rad 5:43 No, I couldn’t agree more. And the crazy thing is that if we hadn’t come together, I mean, we met at university, everybody, I think, who listens to our show probably noticed that we did meet at university, but we really didn’t know each other at all, while we were doing our degree. I remember having a conversation with you at some postgrads thing that was at Macquarie I can’t even remember what it was about. And we were talking about the fact that at the time, we were both dating men who were really keen cricketers. And so we were talking about how the fact that we were like cricket widows on a Saturday or something along those lines. But apart from that, I don’t think we exchanged more than five words to each other whilst we’re at uni together. It wasn’t until we were both graduating essentially, that we were kind of thrown together and somehow decided that even though we knew each other, but we didn’t know each other that well that we would start a podcast together.
Dr G 6:35 Let’s just do this thing. I think at that point, we were really driven by our passion for history and wanting to continue to do history. Yes. And that was pretty clear. And we also, the circumstances of us getting to know each other more through doing the podcast is absolutely true, because we did know, of each other. But I wouldn’t say that we necessarily knew each other deeply at the time that we agreed to do this thing. And in a way that’s potentially a benefit. But I would have to say also, that the circumstance of us coming together was through a mutual friend.
Dr Rad 7:11 Yes.
Dr G 7:12 And so we, we had both already been vetted and approved by somebody we both trusted.
Dr Rad 7:18 And we had been spending some social time together because of the mutual friend, definite
Dr G 7:23 Shout out Abby!
Dr Rad 7:24 Our original photographer, guys. And that’s just it, we ended up developing a number of important mutual friendships, such as Dr. Smith. Hi, Dr. Smith, also one of our photographers are our long suffering friends that have had to take photos of us wherever we go.
Dr G 7:44 Yes, and we’ve really only sorted that out recently, as well by buying a ring light. So we could put this phone on a stand to take the photos for us. And goodness knows. That may be more silly than having somebody take your own picture. I don’t know.
Dr Rad 7:58 This is true. But it just seems crazy to me that if it hadn’t been for that brief moment, that we might not ever have stayed in touch. Like, I know, it’s kind of crazy to me, like you’re literally the person I talk to you the most in the world.
Dr G 8:14 That’s a sliding doors moment
Dr Rad 8:16 That’s actually listening to me, that’s the key.
Dr G 8:19 Oh, no, is this the time where I tell the truth?
Dr Rad 8:25 But anyway, but no look, it has been such a an immense privilege and pleasure to talk about. I’m just gonna say history, because although it is Roman history, we have talked about other things as well. So just talk about history with you for 10 years now. And for you to tolerate my laugh talking.
Dr G 8:42 It is really no burden at all.
Dr Rad 8:45 And also, I mean, you know, there are many co hosts out there that can say they’ve also had to adjust to podcasting with a co host who’s losing their hearing, which has got to be a challenge.
Dr G 8:57 I mean, between the two of us, I guess we’ll see what happens. But as long as we’re able to figure it out, I think we can keep talking about for sure. So this will be our transition into video and sign.
Dr Rad 9:09 It’s coming. It’s coming. I’m learning Auslan slowly. So we decided to get together today because we also wanted to share this moment with our listeners. Because whilst you and I, for the vast majority of our podcasting career have mostly just talked to each other and assumed that nobody else is listening, it turns out that we were wrong about that. That’s actually a lot of people that listen to our podcast. Yeah. And honestly, we are so incredibly grateful for the people that we’ve collaborated with over the years. I mean, they’re too numerous to mention. But we have had a lot of people who had us on this show who shared expertise who shared their support, whether it’s, you know, through resources that they have access to that we didn’t have access to. I mean, we’re really so grateful for all the people out there that have reached out and also to the people that have taken the time to write to us and write nice reviews and nice comments. I mean, honestly, for two people that are still podcasting after 10 years in their living rooms, it’s really, really so incredibly meaningful when you do that. So thank you so much for listening. And thank you for your support. And now as a gift to you, we decided that since it was our 10 year anniversary, that we would get together and have a bit of a bonus chat about our 10 top moments from the Roman Republic, which has absorbed our attention for the vast majority of the past 10 years, not entirely. But obviously, if you want to know what we think about the Regal period, you can go and buy our book now.
Dr G 10:40 Oh, yeah, we’ve sealed the deal on the Regal period by writing a book about it. And we are still in the Republican period. And we will be for hundreds more years. Yeah, I suspect that our 20 year anniversary will probably so banner above like, Look, if we get to the Punic Wars by the 20th anniversary, I think we will have done well.
Dr Rad 11:01 Deal, we’ve gotta go now. The Punic Wars by 2033.
Dr G 11:09 Everyone’s gonna have a 10 year strategy, don’t they?
Dr Rad 11:12 Exactly. So let’s talk through some of our top 10 moments Dr. G, and just re-live the violence the horror, because I realized looking at this list, there aren’t that many nice list. We can pull this list and it’s it’s full of violence. I’m not gonna lie. Well, why don’t you tell me what’s your what’s your fav?
Dr G 11:35 Oh, look, I don’t know that I necessarily have a fave. So we have compiled a document. So I’m just gonna go from number one to number 10. That’s how this is gonna work. Number one is the conspiracy to restore theTarquin dynasty the final terrible family of kings. And somebody at Rome like, you know, it would be a great idea to have those sad sacks back in charge, even though we just literally kick them out.
Dr Rad 12:03 Definitely. Look, I think that this is one of our top moments because it’s one of Brutus’ top moments. And Brutus, as we know is you know, Roman man, par excellence?
Dr G 12:16 Yes, a very honorable man indeed.
Dr Rad 12:18 So just for those of you who don’t recall, Episode 45. When we dealt with this, you can go back and listen to it in more detail. But as you might expect, when a regime is toppled, there are those that were attached to the regime that are no longer enjoying quite the cushy benefits that they used to. And you know who I’m talking about Dr G? It’s time to mention the young patricians.
Dr G 12:44 Oh, no.
Dr Rad 12:46 Now to be fair, they’re not I don’t think they’re actually explicitly in my account, called the Young patricians. But Livy is explicit that they are young men have important families. So I’ve been read between the lines. Young men have important families, it sounds like we’re dealing with the elites, at the very least, exactly. Even if they’re not called the patricians in this time period. Exactly. They’re the people that are going to spawn their patrician class, and therefore I burn them. These young people, they’re not loving, being without the talk wins, because they’re just not enjoying the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed. And therefore, when envoys come from the Tarquins, saying, hey, so like, you know, how they’re exiled and all but what about their property that’s still hanging around the place? What about that? What about it?
The young men of Rome are open to some subterfuge on the side. So whilst ostensibly representing the property interests of the top ones, these envoys are putting out feelers and lo and behold, they find some people that are willing to try and assist the torque winds to get back into power. Now, they don’t seem to be the best conspirators I’ve ever come across. I’m not going to lie. Because not only do they put things down in writing, which I feel like it’s never a good idea. Awkward guys.
Dr G 14:15 Conspiracy much?
Dr Rad 14:16 Yeah, exactly. Letters are exchanged. So not only is stuffed down in writing, but they don’t seem to be very secretive when discussing the super secret plot to bring back the king in their own homes. Now, Hmm. Maybe this is just complacency, because the people that overhear them are slaves. So maybe they’re just like, well, you know, I do everything else in front of my slaves. You know, I have sex in front of them. I address in front of them. I go to the toilet in front of them. I eat in front of them. You’re certainly not expecting them to do the dirty on you, that’s for sure. Yeah. But anyway, as a result of all these various types of evidence, they ended up getting found out pretty quick-smart and convicted of conspiracy now why? Why Dr. G? You might ask Does any of this have anything to do with Brutus?
Dr G 15:10 I think some of his relatives, nay, his children may be involved.
Dr Rad 15:16 Exactly. So Brutus, supposedly was one of the first consuls, see our other episodes for the lengthy discussions about whether consuls actually existed this quickly or not. Brutus is apparently one of the very first consuls, and he is naturally you know, taking charge of steering this ship that is room through the dangerous waters that lie ahead as they enter the Republican harbor after exiting from the kingship. But he has to face the fact that his own sons, Titus and Tiberius seem to have been caught up in this conspiracy. And this is not entirely surprising, because lest we forget, Dr. G. Brutus is a part of the Tarquin family.
Dr G 16:01 Yes, he’s part of the extended gens that is related to Superbus himself. So it is perhaps problematic that his sons are involved, and also unsurprising.
Dr Rad 16:15 So this means that Brutus has to oversee not only the conviction of his sons, which would be shameful enough, but the punishment and this is what I think really cements, Brutus, his reputation in the Roman mind, putting state above self.
Dr G 16:33 Indeed. And it’s an unpleasant business to execute people in ancient Rome. These guys are stripped their scourged and then ultimately beheaded.
Dr Rad 16:46 And Brutus has to stand by and watch it all. Ugh.
Dr G 16:51 Well, I mean, he doesn’t have to stand by and watch it all. But he does.
Dr Rad 16:54 This is true. And this is the this is the thing. It’s that toughness, isn’t it? You know, Roman men are meant to be either masculine in this sense. So he’s tough. He’s got that sort of stoic vibe to him. I know that it’s probably a bit anachronistic to say that, but you know what I mean, I’m using it in the modern sense. And he is absolutely putting the New Republic above his own family.
Dr G 17:21 Yeah, it’s a impressive and tragic start to the New Republic.
Dr Rad 17:27 But for that reason, I had to put her on the list because Brutus will continue to be a bit of a touchstone I think for subsequent generations of Romans, because of his key role in overthrowing the Tarquin dynasty and then ensuring that they can’t sneak their sneaky little way back in.
Dr G 17:46 They certainly cannot. Yeah, people will die. Yeah, heads will fall.
Dr Rad 17:51 Absolutely. And this moment, for those of you who are playing along at home, was immortalized by Jacques Louis David, French painter who was quite drawn to the Republican period during the French Revolution. You can see his illustration of the lictors bringing Brutus the bodies of his sons. If you feel like a visual that would just cheer you up no end. And on that happy note, this brings us to another horrible incident in the Roman Republic, this made our list Dr G and that is the downfall of Spurius Cassius.
Dr G 18:24 And look, I’m not going to pretend that I remember much about this one, to be honest. I mean, he clearly he’s important. We spend at least two episodes on him. But. But what did he do?
Dr Rad 18:38 Well, this is the thing is first, Cassius, some people might think he’s a bit of a controversial choice. We did talk about him in Episode 72 and 73. Just to be clear, we’re talking about Spurius Cassius Vecellinus, or Vecellinus, which sounds a little bit like Vicks Vapor Rub or something like that to me. But he held the consulship quite a few times. And he seems to have been prominent in this early Republican period as well, because he holds it in 502 and 493, which is kind of a key year, because that’s the year that Rome is dealing with the whole Lake Regillius, and all of that kind of stuff where they’ve been battling the Latins, and so on, and then finally in 486, so yeah, that’s a pretty decent run early on and thinks it does sound impressive. So spirit, Cassius is mostly known, I think, probably there for his downfall, which was a pretty big deal in our show. And look, I think the reason why some people might find him a controversial choice is because his downfall is probably a little bit anachronistic. But nonetheless, I think it was still a pretty big moment and the fact that whether it was entirely in the way that Livy and Dionysius painted it or whether it is a bit of a retrojection from their own time period. It still comes across as a pretty key moment in the republic to me. And that’s because his downfall is very much tied up with the whole question of land redistribution in room.
Dr G 20:15 Yes, this is a big and perennial issue.
Dr Rad 20:18 So in spite of the fact that Spurius Cassius is a patrician as generally all our early magistrates seem to be, he seems to have been in favor of putting forward an agrarian law that was going to help the barbarians in terms of securing land, which obviously is key to survival and status in the Roman world. His family, patricians weren’t super keen on this idea. And so he ends up being basically, I think, set up as someone who’s aspiring to be a tyrant, and he is convicted and taken down and he ends up being thrown off the Tarpeian rock.
Dr G 21:01 Oh, intense. The fact that I can’t even remember this is a testament to just how long were they podcasting. Because that’s a pivotal event!
Dr Rad 21:10 Absolutely. I mean, look, for those of you who are fond of the latest Republic, you’ll probably think that this sounds a little bit like a man we mentioned very often for people that are still in the Regal period and the early republic most of the time, and that is Tiberius Gracchus.
Dr G 21:26 Yes, everybody’s
Dr Rad 21:29 Yeah, Tiberius Gracchus also came to a sticky end because of his push for land laws, and I think fair treatment for the people. And so it is suspected, that perhaps spurious Cassius as life has somehow been maybe jazzed up a little bit, whether with a crack and feel so Gracchan glitter, sprinkle sprinkle. But as you often said to me, Dr. G, it seems really unlikely that our sources would entirely lie to us about something.
Dr G 22:07 Yeah, I mean, I tend to I tend to take that line.
Dr Rad 22:12 Yeah. And so there must be something about this man. That I think I mean, there must be some truth to his story. I think the nature of his death, I find it hard to believe that people would make that up.
Dr G 22:25 Yeah. But the idea that there is a crisis going on, and that somebody is trying to stand up for the little man, that seems relatively believable. I mean, that’s the broad brushstrokes of the story. You’re like, okay, I can I can be on board with something like that. That makes sense. It’s politically expedient, if nothing else, to try and pick up some of that support in some way.
Dr Rad 22:53 For sure, and like, we don’t know, a lot of things about the Republic, including exactly how land that was public land was managed to this point in time, we can’t be entirely certain how much of an issue, land ownership was, at this time, in the sense that I’m sure it was an issue because, you know, as I said, it is the basis of wealth and prosperity and status in this society. So I’m sure it’s probably always an issue. But at the same time, we can’t be entirely sure exactly if the nature of the tension at this point in time, but I had to put Spurius Cassius on the list, because to me, it seems like he was actually maybe one of the not so bad patrician, because you and I are both crazy leftist.
Dr G 23:41 That’s true. And it’s very rare that one of the good guys comes through. Well, I think this leads us to our third on the list on our top 10 Lars Porsenna. What a man what a man. And this guy is like a king from outside of Rome, who manages according to some sources to take over Rome.
Dr Rad 24:09 Absolutely. I mean, how could we not bring back Lars Porsenna, the king of Clusium?
Dr G 24:15 Look at him go. And not just king of Clusium I tell you, he might also be in charge of this place as well.
Dr Rad 24:23 Yeah, so last four centers on we talked about as well back in the very, very early days of the Republic. But I do enjoy this story. And I do remember this story. So that that tells you something. We did talk about him for a number of episodes if you go back to our 40s because that’s how long ago it was. You’ll find a number of episodes that mention Lars Porsenna.
Dr G 24:45 And there is this great set piece story of the moment that Porsenna is trying to infiltrate Rome militarily speaking, and there is the amazing story You have of Hartius Cocles who defends Rome from this attack, over the only bridge that appears to exist at this point in time, the Sublician bridge over the Tiber.So this means that Porsenna’s forces are sitting somewhere near the Janiculum. And it means that the Romans are kind of like this is our last chance to defend ourselves. It’s this bridge or bust. And Horatius Cocles does some incredible work to try and save Rome
Dr Rad 25:33 That he does. In fact, I believe from memory he cops are very serious butt wound in the process.
Dr G 25:35 I was gonna say he saves Rome’s arse, but he’s not able to save his own.
Dr Rad 25:38 So true, so true. So Porsenna is it is a really interesting character because he comes up seemingly because the exiled Tarquin and dynasty have taken refuge with him, and perhaps trying to persuade him to attack Rome. And I guess they’re hoping that this is going to be their avenue back into power, since that conspiracy inside of Rome has failed.
Dr G 26:14 Du-du-duuuun.
Dr Rad 26:16 I know. But scholars have tried to make sense of this because whilst Livy and Dionysius represent it in this kind of light. We have later sources like Tacitus, and plenty that are seemingly certain that Porsenna actually captured Rome, really low point, obviously, for Rome, because not only did he capture it, but he also brought in some really, really serious baby steps that were not beneficial to Rome at all.
Dr G 26:45 Yeah, I mean, I think it’s an interesting sort of alternative tradition, as it were, because you’ve got the Romans very much are interested in not being captured by an external force. And they do have to navigate that at various points in their history. So for this to be one of the examples that they don’t necessarily agree on, I think is fascinating and tells us something about the politics of this moment. And this, I think, heads right back in towards what we know about the Roman kings as well, in terms of like, was there an Etruscan takeover during the Regal period? And, you know, the sources try to worm their way away from that interpretation in various ways. And it seems like maybe something similar could be happening here.
Dr Rad 27:38 Definitely. I mean, some people say Porsenna is actually the real end of the monarchy, because he starts being a problem for Rome in about 508. So a year after the kings have been kicked out, supposedly. But yeah, some scholars have seen this as actually being the moment where the monarchy ended, because you have this foreign takeover of Rome. But that when looking back, the Romans maybe found it a bit easier to write a history where the kings were horrible, and they were kicked out. And then they allied with persona, and therefore, these guys were the enemy together, rather than Porsenna potentially being the person to come in and take room. And also, of course, Porsenna’s lengthy campaign against the Rams, because it lasts for quite some time. He’s really an annoyance to them for a good four years, maybe five years according to our records. We have some of the most famous moments of the early republic, including Gaius Mucius Cordis otherwise known to history as Scaevola.
Dr G 28:45 Hmm.
Dr Rad 28:47 And this is another of course, amazing moment of virtus much like Horatius Cocles that you mentioned earlier. So Scaevola’s story is all about room being besieged by Porsenna. They’re not in a great state. So this guy, guy sneaky has caught us, puts his hand up, puts his hand up and says, you know, I’ll infiltrate the camp. I’ll pretend to be a deserter. And I will assassinate Porsenna and that will put an end to this whole issue.
Dr G 29:18 We’ll cut off the head of the Hydra. That’s how we’ll do it.
Dr Rad 29:22 Exactly. Now, I won’t go into all the details of his story. But eventually he is found out within the camp of Porsenna. He actually ends up putting his own hand into flames to sort of be like Hiiiii. And Porsenna is so impressed by his bravery, by his physical fortitude, that he releases him.
Yeah, and this is where this is where the hand thing comes in, because of course Scaevola is a name that he earns apparently, yeah, because he becomes “The Left Handed”.
Dr G 30:01 Well yes, the right one. It’s a bit dodgy now.
Dr Rad 30:05 So we’ve got that famous moment. And then of course, we’ve got a very rare appearance from a heroic woman.
Dr G 30:11 Oh yeah, I’m excited about the story of Cloelia, who manages to get some hostages back to Rome at a daring escape. And for this, she gets awarded an equestrian statue. And this is huge. It’s very rare for Roman women to win a statue of any kind. And, yeah, she stands out as one of the very impressive early Republican women.
Dr Rad 30:42 Absolutely. Now, of course, the fact that scandal or include Cloelia and Horatius Cocles are probably mythological figures should not dampen our enjoyment of their stories. And also, we have to thank Lars Porsenna for bringing them to us.
Dr G 30:59 Thank you, Porsenna. Okay, number four on our list, the first secession of the plebs. Now this, this is a massive issue.
Dr Rad 31:08 Yeah, the moment that started at all I mean, we’re still dealing with the repercussions of the struggle of the artist, and we will be for so many more episodes,
Dr G 31:16 We will and you know, it’s tied up to some elements of debt. And there seems to be like, how do you get yourself out of debt? And how do you get yourself out of debt bondage, this is a real problem. So the plebeians are struggling under the economic shackles of the early republic, not that they weren’t suffering under the Kings, they probably were, but it’s now it’s really a headline act. Now the the trouble that the plebs are facing, and the consuls are taking a pretty hard line on this sort of stuff, and they do not want to negotiate. And this ultimately means that the plebs decide to leave room altogether. They’re like, that’s it. You know what, I cannot live in this place, if you’re going to treat me so badly. I’m the guy that gets up every day when there’s a war, and I fight on the front lines. And when I come home, it’s all just taxation, and enslavement, and no land, and what am I supposed to do with my life? Why don’t I live over here on this hill, so they repair to somewhere else, they’re like, I’m out. I’m just out, I’ll make friends with other people, I’ll find a new place to live, it’s going to be fine. And it takes a lot of backwards and forwards diplomacy on the behalf of some very patient, but sympathetic patricians to talk to these guys and really be like, Look, actually, Rome cannot be Rome. Without you. We are a unified people. And I think this is the moment where we get the head and the stomach analogy coming for that moment where the patricians or the head and the plebeians of the stomach, and neither can function without the other. And it’s some sort of glorious symbiotic relationship that exists.
Dr Rad 33:12 Yeah, that’s the immortal words of Menenius Agrippa. There, give me the analogy of look, Rome is like a body. And you guys have you know, the hands and that kind of stuff, and the patricians of the stomach and we just need to absorb what you give us and, and we also take on board, you know, the, the food to the brain, and we end up being the mastermind of this whole operation.
Dr G 33:34 Ah the patricians are the stomach, of course.
Dr Rad 33:39 Look, I had to put this one on the list, personally, not only because we’ve been talking about the struggle of the orders, which is this lengthy tension between patricians and plebeians, which we have so little information on considering how long it apparently lasted. But it certainly been the topic of many episodes it. In fact, I don’t think there are many episodes where we don’t mention something about the patricians and plebeians at this point in time, whether it’s warranted or not. And so I thought, we have to mention this particular moments in Republican history. Because again, it’s one of those moments sliding doors, as you say, where everything could have really changed because, of course room at the time was at war with the Sabines in the Volsicians. And the patricians really needed the plebeians to come back, which I think is probably why they entered into negotiations in the first place.
Dr G 34:33 And lucky they did I mean, it works out well for the patricians as far as I can tell.
Dr Rad 34:39 It did it did indeed, because they do end up prevailing upon the plebeians to come back. And one of the things that the plebeians apparently get out of coming back is, of course, the office of the tribune of the plebs. The tribune of the plebs. They’ve caused me so much To light with all their troublesome meddling.
Dr G 35:04 Well, and this is actually a really interesting segue to number five on this list. So it is the life and times of Volero Publilius. Which is fair enough, and you might think to yourself, now wait, I remember those episodes. What’s that got to do with the tribune of the plebs. But the whole year that this guy is involved with and his rise up is preluded by the sudden death and probable murder of a tribune of the plebs. A Gnaeus Genucius. And so this is what 473 BCE. And so this kind of time period, a we’ve clearly got a little bit of political tension in the city. We’ve we’ve got a tribune of the plebs turning up dead, which is a bit of a disaster, because those guys are supposed to have inviolable bodies. Under no circumstances, are they meant to be murdered? And so, this kind of sets the scene for what will be the life and times of Volero? Publius.
Dr Rad 36:21 Absolutely. Because this guy Volero Publilius. Or, if we use his slightly easier version of his name, Volero Publius. Gah that rolls off the tongue so much easier. He is a centurion. So kind of just a fairly average joe, Dr. G. You know how it goes. He turns up to enlist for the army, because that’s what you do. If you’re a decent Roman man, you do duty, even though it’s tough. But when he turns up to enlist, he finds that he has seemingly been demoted from centurion to a common soldier.
Dr G 37:04 Ouch.
Dr Rad 37:06 Could there be a larger disgrace for a man like this? Who’s done his duty for so many years?
Dr G 37:12 Oh, just you wait, I think there might be.
Dr Rad 37:16 So causes a bit of a fuss. He ends up being bundled up by the lictors. And nobody’s very happy about this situation. We ended up getting full on brawling in the streets of Rome, that plebeians will not have these violent hands being laid on Volero, not they’re Volero.
Dr G 37:35 No, yeah, this brawling really gets out of hand because Volero is pretty adamant that nobody should be laying any hands on him. He’s merely raising some important questions about the whole situation. And he’s like, I’ve fought for a long time. What do you mean, I’m not not a centurion anymore? And, you know, so he’s raising those questions, he gets bundled up by the lectores. So this means that the consuls essentially at the levy doing their job of getting soldiers enrolled, and their electors are then like, on him, because he’s starting to cause some trouble. But instead of that settling the trouble, what this does is inflames the street violence, because the plebeians that are there at the time, presumably also lining up to satisfy the levy are like, wait a minute, if this can happen to this guy, this could happen to us. Oh, no, it’s time. And so like, whatever that five is, and that tension in the air for this particular levy, it does not go well. And things get so out of hand that reportedly the fast skis themselves get broken, which is a lot.
Dr Rad 38:46 Absolutely. I mean, the fast guys are meant to be this representation of the consul’s power over the population to beat them and if necessary to execute them, so that they have smashed these out, is a pretty big message of defiance. And I think if we put this all together with the mysterious death of Genucius, it seems like there’s some serious class issues going on in Rome at this time. And of course, Volero ended up being quite a character in a few of our episodes. Chi Chi, so I had to put him on the list because I had fond memories of him,
Dr G 39:20 He’s always standing up for the little man.
Dr Rad 39:22 Yeah, absolutely.
Dr G 39:24 So number six on our list, the Sneak Attack of Appius Herdonius, the Sabine in 460 BCE. This is an epic moment in Rome’s history. I have to say this one stands out just because it is both horrifying and surprising and then becomes an environment in which a whole bunch of people really go to in terms of Roman virtus.
Dr Rad 39:57 Absolutely. I vividly remember Are these episodes where we talked about this because I don’t think it’s something you hear about all that often, I guess, because it’s kind of in the middle of this century that is kind of known for being a tough one for the entire area room included. And it’s not a period that people I think dwell on too much. So I don’t think I’d actually ever heard of this, say, by an attack on Rome before.
Dr G 40:23 But the Sabines actually take the Capitol. And this is the thing that makes you want to follow up on a story like this, because there are really famous stories of Rome being sacked by the goals and things like that stories that we have not reached our narrative episodes. But before those pivotal moments, we have something like this, like the Republic is always in danger, there is never a moment where it is really safe. And the city is constantly under pressure from its neighbours. And for the Sabines to turn up and to do a sneak infiltration into the Capitol, which is the most sacred hill of the city is suggestive that of Rome sort of like place within this broader relationship in central Italy, it is by no means secure in its own power. And when they find out about this attack, they really are on the backfoot. And they have to get all of their forces organized quite quickly to defend the interior. And this is tough, because the Capitol is a hill and the Romans themselves and not on the top of that hill.
Dr Rad 41:39 Crucial error.
Dr G 41:40 This is bad news. And so we have the the tragic death of Valerius Publicola, one of the heroes of the Romans, who’s who was famous for holding, I think, many consulships by this point. And he is lost in this battle. This is a tragedy. But also and we learn this much later. This is also a battle that Dentatus fights in. So we’ll come back to that guy. But Dentatus is here fighting as well. And he talks about this battle in really particular terms because it is so intense.
Dr Rad 42:21 This is true. And I think that the other reason why I had to mention this one as one of our top 10 moments is because it’s an ancient Roman example of fake news. Because of course, this episode has something to do with the conflict of the orders as well, because I think one of the reasons why the Sabines were supposedly able to sneak into Rome and seize the Capitol before people seem to really know what was going on, is that the Romans were really distracted by their own internal problems. The young patricians, my favorite characters of our show, had been terrorizing the plebeians. And when trouble initially is afoot, because of Appius Herdonius, it seems that there’s some suspicion that may be the consuls, just saying that there’s an attack and an invasion, in order to deal with the class warfare because this is the classic go to patrician move, right to distract the plebeians with external problems, so that they will stop talking about their unhappiness with the internal political situation. And the tribunes I think, are encouraging them to believe that this is, you know, this is potentially something that the consuls have stirred up, either that or that this is their moment to stand firm and not act and be like, well, this is what happens. I don’t want to serve when you don’t treat me very well. Maybe I’d be better off with the Sabines. Have you ever thought about that patricians?
Dr G 43:48 Disaster, if they don’t fight now, they’ll lose everything they ever, ever valued.
Dr Rad 43:53 Exactly. So they do they do come together as at this point, they always seem to do, but I think that instance of you know, who do you trust in these moments of crisis? Who do you listen to? Who are the authority figures that you go to? To get reliable sources of information? I mean, that always touches a bit of a nerve with me.
Dr G 44:14 Fair enough. And as a historian, I’m not surprised.
Dr Rad 44:19 All right, and that brings us to number seven on the list.
Dr G 44:21 Ooh, this is the death of Verginia slash or the beginning of the end of Appius Claudius
Dr Rad 44:30 I like to say is about we’re getting out because we get so few women in the Republic, it’s crazy.
Dr G 44:36 And it looks like Verginia holds a really particular place in this narrative of the end of the decemvirate. So there is a point in which the Republic of Rome does collapse. This there is no doubt and it doesn’t take very long into it. And what replaces it is this decemvirate this group of 10 men who refuse to let go of power, and Appius Claudius is by far the most proud and offensive of the lot of them, but also the one who’s most charismatically in charge, apparently, honing in on those very patrician qualities that the Romans really quite like, from their elites, you know, the arrogance, the refusal to negotiate, and all of that kind of stuff.
Dr Rad 45:27 This is all tied up with again, part of the apparent struggle of the orders, although we’ve switched, as you may have noticed, for I’m talking about land issues to talking about the laws, because this all came out of the law about the laws, which became a big issue, I think, particularly in the late 460s in the 450s, where it seemed like the issue so that obedience became that they really wanted to have set down somewhere, the rules that were being applied to their society, which seemingly the patricians who occupied the senior magistracies and priesthoods had exclusive knowledge of or access to. And so the decemvirate was meant to fix all of that they were meant to produce a law code, and the first decemvirate went pretty well, but the second decemvirate, as you say, not so much, because they decided they were going to stay in power forever.
Dr G 46:13 Yeah, rather than producing the laws and letting everybody get on with it. They were like, wait a minute, I’m enjoying this power, what if I don’t do my job and just stay forever?
Dr Rad 46:23 Exactly. Now, we spent quite a lot of time talking about this. So we won’t go into heaps of detail now. But essentially, beginning I think, becomes a bit of a symbol for Appius Claudius, and the way that he is out of control.
Dr G 46:35 Yeah, she is a reputedly a very beautiful young woman. And he decides that he desires her and that he can have her because he’s so powerful, and no one can stop him. And as it turns out, the Romans don’t agree with that. And despite his best efforts to try and find a way to make it legal for him to have his way with her, she is defended by her family at every turn. And they go into bat for her, and they see the injustice and they rail against it. And ultimately, it ends in tragedy, where her father is with Verginia. And they’re in the forum together. And it seems like what Appius Claudius is going to do is he’s going to seize her anyway, and just do his business. And Verginia’s father decides that the only way to save her from this fate is to is to kill her.
Dr Rad 47:39 Absolutely. And this is such a pivotal moment, it really seems to be the turning point for I think a lot of people when it comes to Appius Claudius and a second decemvirate, as you say, becomes the kind of the thread that is pulled and starts to unravel that whole regime. But what a tragedy for a woman’s death, murder at the hands of her own father in public, how, yeah, how deeply disturbing it is that this is how it is in Rome, that a woman must die in such circumstances or so it would seem in order for tyranny to be brought to justice.
Dr G 48:18 Yes, it tells tell us something about the way that this society dysfunctionally navigates its relationship with women,
Dr Rad 48:25 Indeed. And that of course, then brings us to another person who fell afoul of the second decemvirate and that is Lucius Siccius Dentatus.
Dr G 48:36 Dentatus, the man born with teeth. I shall never forget. And Dentatus is renowned, first and foremost for being an excellent soldier. And he earns a reputation in some of the latest source material as the Roman Achilles, which I think is fantastic. But he also at some point is able given the opportunity to to stand up in front of the crowd to speak at the rostra. And boy, does he reveal his political hand at that point, because he has been a soldier for 40 plus years, by the time he gets to speak. And he tells everybody about his achievements, his golden crown for recovering the standards, which he did personally when he was 27 years old. talks about his 45 wounds that he’s received over the course of his 40 year career. All of those wounds on the front of his body, very respectful. Everybody’s like bow down. The man is great. Not only that 12 of those wounds he tells us were received on the day that Herdonius seized the Capitol. So that you know, there’s there’s references even within our top 10 lens.
Dr Rad 48:53 Link!
Dr G 49:07 You can have a top 10 list but they all connected. He also won 14 corona civica. So this is the crown for saving a Roman citizen himself three corona muralis for going over the wall first and numerous other awards and and then he says, regardless of all of this, all of the things that I’ve achieved in my career, I have no land that I can call my own basically starts riot right there. Everyone’s like, oh my god, it doesn’t matter how hard you work in life, the system is rigged against us and we’re never going to have anything. And so this becomes his – he might not realize it at the time, but this speech becomes the speech that really gets him into the tribuncianship. So he becomes a tribune of the plebs on the back of this kind of like discussion. Everyone’s like, well, if this guy, this guy will be able to get us the land. So we’ve, we’ve switched from like law about the laws, which is also very important simultaneously back to like, the first crux issue that the plebeians had raised, which is like, we need some land to be able to do our farming and look after ourselves.
Dr Rad 51:12 Yeah, well, I think there’s no matter no matter what you’re talking about, with the struggle of the orders, there are three themes that float in and out. And there doesn’t seem to be much rhyme or reason to why certain issues are, you know, prevalent at certain times and not others, but it’s definitely land allotment. That’s one, debt bondage and debt. That’s another and the law about the laws. And essentially, what that is relating to obviously, as we said, is like control of the knowledge.
Dr G 51:37 Yeah, a law about the laws is basically also the publication of law in such a way that the everyday man can have access to it.
Dr Rad 51:47 Yeah, we know they had laws before the 12 Tables, which is what comes out of the decemvirate. But as you say, it’s about well, does everybody know about them? Does everybody have access to them in this sort of society? Probably not.
Dr G 52:00 It’s unlikely. I think it’s suffice to say that the old Dentatus gets on the wrong side of the elites, which at this time, are the decemvirs.
Dr Rad 52:15 Oh, yeah, he’s another he’s another for being here. And we love our party and heroes like Volero and Dentatus
Dr G 52:21 But it doesn’t go well. And it seems like Dentatus who sent back into the fray essentially, after his tribuncian days are over. And he is of the understanding that he is going to be meeting up with the army and getting the right sort of support. But instead what happens is some Roman soldiers have been paid, it would seem to turn against their own and he is taken down. And this all comes out eventually. hugely problematic. But at the time, it’s told us a story of tragedy being like we lost Dentatus. Who knew?
Dr Rad 52:58 You know what that sounds like? To me, Dr. G. It sounds like an evil plan.
Dr G 53:05 There is some conspirosity going on.
Dr Rad 53:09 Couldn’t get through our 10 year anniversary about an evil plan.
Dr G 53:13 Fair enough! Fair enough.
Dr Rad 53:14 Speaking of evil plans. That brings us to number nine analysis, which is the rise and fall of Spurius Maelius.
Dr G 53:21 A popular figure. This guy is a plebeian who happens to be quite rich,
Dr Rad 53:27 Another plebeian hero!
Dr G 53:29 Yeah, plebeian hero. It doesn’t bode well for him either. Like spoilers, as as we’re all aware. So it’s, there is a crippling famine in Rome. And it’s around about 444-39 BCE. And there is a prefect of the grain, Lucius Minucius, who is in charge of making sure that Rome is fed. And he is having trouble completing that task, because grain is in short supply.
Dr Rad 53:56 It is and I’m sorry, I just have to interrupt because you’re not using his official title, which is the Nacho King of Rome. And I think we all agreed on that.
Dr G 54:05 I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Lucius Minucius. The Nacho King of Rome, is in charge of sourcing grain, but he’s finding it hard to purchase it at a reasonable price. And it seems like everybody else is also going through a famine. So maybe they’re not for sale. These grains are not for buying. And so he’s having some issues. So enter stage left Spurius Maelius, very rich plebeian, who’s like, well, you got to offer more cash, you know, very Han Solo about it. And so he sets up some relationships that really do work out and he has riverboats of grain coming into the city, and they are stamped all over with the name spirits. Maelius bought this grain and the plebeians, they know. They might not be able to read everything, but they can tell and yeah, You know, Maelius is handing it out and the plebeians take the position that well, if spurious, Maelius is bringing in the grain, surely that makes him the prefect of the grain.
Dr Rad 55:18 Exactly, we’ve got a new natural King in town, and I’m loving it.
Dr G 55:22 Not only is this guy bringing it in, it’s raining grain, and I’m hungry. So this guy is now he’s our prefect, this is man we go to nothing could be more calculated to ruin a patrician stay than finding out that their position of political power has been hoisted out from underneath them by a plebeian and popular support. Minucius is not happy. And this leads to trouble. Ultimately, things get really, really like sort of heated and chaotic, and it seems that the Romans decide that maybe murder is okay.
Dr Rad 56:04 Yeah, there seems to be a bit like the whole Porsenna plot with Scaevola. Or it seems in some accounts, like this is a case of state-sanctioned murder.
Dr G 56:15 It does feel that way. And you know, they institute a dictator. So and this is all coming from the elites, obviously. So a dictator is put into place. He asked for a master of the horse, a madman, basically volunteers. He was like, I love stabbing people. Let me stab somebody.
Dr Rad 56:33 They’re like, they will hold a sign that he was a madman. I mean, for God’s sakes, his name means “Armpit”.
Dr G 56:38 And so you know, they send Ahala “the armpit” off to Maelius. And then a hollow does away with him in broad daylight. And everyone’s like, wait a minute, did that. Did that guy just murdered that? Wait, what? No.
Dr Rad 56:55 Yeah, so this is another guy who I mean, he is an equestrian. So he is actually as we say, he’s wealthy. He’s not suffering, like the average Roman citizen probably is at this point in time. But nonetheless, like Spurius Cassius before him, he seems to be someone who’s at least trying to do something for the people may be self motivated. I mean, you know, it’s rare in this world for anyone to do anything for free. But nonetheless, he seems to be doing these nice things for the people at this time of crisis. And in my account, certainly, it was all painted like he was again aspiring to tyranny like trying to make himself a king or something like that. Just like whisperers, Cassius before him, you know, where he ends up being accused of aspiring to some sort of higher power. And, of course, that’s a surefire way to get rid of someone in ancient Rome.
Dr G 57:47 Goodness me.
Dr Rad 57:47 We spent, we spent quite a bit of time dealing with Spurius Maelius and mopping up that whole affair, so we couldn’t help but mention him.
Dr G 57:53 Oh, look, I think I think it’s a it’s a nicer second last position, because coming in, drumroll, please. Number 10, for 10 years of the podcast, it’s all as Cornelius Cossus vs. Lars Tolumnius. This is our second Lars in the top 10.
Dr Rad 58:22 It’s no coincidence that he’s also Etruscan.
Dr G 58:23 No, I remain unsurprised.
Dr Rad 58:26 No. But look, I had to put Cossus in because over the years, we have had several really, really ridiculously good looking men come into history,
Dr G 58:37 It would be a shame to miss out old Cossus. One because he’s very good looking, according to all reports, but also he achieved something that has not yet been achieved in the Republic until he does it. And that is for him as a military commander to slay the enemy commander. So in the field about a one on one, and this is what Cossus reputedly does with Lars Tolumnius. And it’s bad like there’s a gouging of the thigh. You know, it depends on who you read, but it gets quiet.
Dr Rad 59:13 Yeah, I think last Tolumnius ends up pinned to the ground in my account, which sounds so painful. I really don’t like to think of
Yeah, he gets pushed off his horse and then pinned to the ground and then yeah, it’s it’s unpleasant. So Cossus does something incredibly violent, and has only been topped by Romulus in this regard in terms of taking out an enemy commander. So you have to go right back to the very early days of the Roman kings to get a story quiet like this.
And the reason why he’s number 10 is because Romulus is probably mythical, and there are so many questions about exactly how on earth he managed to get this accolade given that We’re not sure when it happened. We’re not sure if it happened, because there’s so many question marks about when it supposedly happened and what position he was actually holding at the time. But I will say this, to go back to what you always say to me, Dr. G, the Romans really make everything up. So I do believe that last Tolumnius existed, that there was an Etruscan King, and that he was taken out by ridiculously good looking Roman.
Dr G 1:00:28 We just don’t know when or exactly how.
Dr Rad 1:00:33 Exactly, but what a note to end on uncertainty with our sources, which has also been a constant refrain for 10 years.
Dr G 1:00:42 And I don’t think that’s gonna get cleared up anytime soon. To be honest.
Dr Rad 1:00:47 It’s not. But look, we hope you enjoyed us counting down our top 10 moments over the Roman republic, and we hope that you appreciate just how violent and bloody and gory really is.
Dr G 1:00:59 Yes, and here’s to another 10 years.
Dr Rad 1:01:04 To get worse, I think
Dr G 1:01:05 Oh, no!
Dr Rad 1:01:06 Yeah, but we have so enjoyed having you all along for the ride. We really appreciate your support. We’ve accomplished things that I don’t think we ever dreamed of when we first sat down in one of Dr. G’s apartments that you have had in the time I’ve known you. Actually, I was just remembering the other day how there have been recording sessions where you know, one of us would go over to the others house and then someone next door to be doing renovations and we had to flee to the library and the library kept putting announcements over the loudspeaker, you would have no idea listeners, just how much we have sometimes been challenged.
Dr G 1:01:42 Well, it’s been a wild ride so far, and may it long continue.
Dr Rad 1:01:47 And I mean, I’m actually amazed that we’ve managed to get through this podcast without one of our little furry guests making an appearance. It’s true,
Dr G 1:01:53 My cat has been yelling outside the door.
Dr Rad 1:01:58 Well, here’s to another 10 years, Dr. G. Thank you so much for starting the Partial Historians with me.
Dr G 1:02:05 Oh, and thank you, and always huge thanks to you listening it out there.
Dr Rad 1:02:23 Thank you for listening to this extra special episode of the Partial Historians. Dr. G and I are so proud that we finally been able to put an X on the old bedpost and we’re looking forward to notching up a few more because our passion for ancient Rome will never fade. And we are so incredibly grateful that we have found other people who not only love ancient Rome, but love making fun of ancient Rome as much as we do. When we started out in 2013. I don’t know that we were entirely certain that two women from Down Under who love history would necessarily find an audience. And yet, here you are. Thank you so much. We particularly like to thank anybody who’s ever reached out to us and written us a really kind message, or written a five star review, you have no idea how much particularly as independent podcasters those mean to us as we’re researching, recording and editing the show. This is probably also a good time to thank our Patreons, I mean, where would we be without our Patreons past and present, it means so much that you would consider spending your hard earned money on our show. And you’ve certainly allowed us to upgrade our equipment. And we’re also looking to expand into new areas this year. So keep your eyes peeled. Speaking of new areas, we’d like to thank Highlands Press our publisher. It’s been so much fun to be able to write a book together, particularly a book that’s kind of rooted in our podcast. So thank you so much to the Highlands Press. On a more personal note, as we sign off, we would like to thank our friends and family who have offered us constructive criticism, support, they have been very tolerant at the time that we’ve invested in the show over the years. We’d also like to say thank you and hello to all the podcasting community that have been so generous with their time and expertise over the years. It really is an amazing community to be a part of and social media has allowed us to connect with so many other podcast shows all over the world. And it’s been such a blast getting to know you all and we look forward to many further collaborations. And also as a part of that, we would like to say thank you to anyone who has ever guessed it on the Partial Historians. What a special honour it has been to talk to so many academics who have been incredibly generous with their time and expertise. And I think we can all say that we have learned so much from those special episodes and I just can’t imagine a bigger privilege than being able to talk to academics about their specialty. So with all that being said, it’s time for Dr. G and I to sign off. That’s 10 years a wrap. And until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
A Dry Period
Feb 16, 2023
Prepare yourself, dear listener, for a drought or two! After spending several episodes on individual years, we are speeding ahead in our latest episode. We are covering not one, not two, but THREE years in a single instalment. Join us as we tackle 430, 429 and 428 BCE.
Episode 134 – A Dry Period
Financial Affairs
The Romans enjoy a remarkably peaceful year in 430 BCE. This means that they can turn their attention to financial matters. At least the new law that is introduced seems to benefit the people.
A Year About Nothing
The citizens must be confused as the peace continued into 429 BCE. No war? No internal conflict? Are we trapped in an episode of Seinfeld?
A classic photo of the Seinfeld cast. Source: www.geekblast.com.br
The Return of Cossus
The ridiculously handsome Aulus Cornelius Cossus returns for a consulship in 428 BCE. Thank goodness! We need some eye candy around here. The drama returns to Rome with raiders from Veii and Fidenae. However, the Romans cannot stay mad for long. A severe drought devastates the people. We’ve hit a dry period in this very dry period.
All the Romans could think about was how to improve their relationship with the gods. Will their luck turn around?
Looking to catch up on why Cossus is so famed? We’ve got your back:
L. (or C.) Papirius – f. – n. Crassus (Pat) Cos. 436
L. Iulius (Vop. F. C. n.?) Iullus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 438
Censors
L. Papirius (Pat)
P. Pinarius (Pat)
Our Players 429 BCE
Consuls
Hostius Lucretius – f. – n. Tricipitinus (Pat)
L. Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat) Cos. 437, Mil. Tr. c.p. 433, 424, 418
Our Players 428 BCE
Consuls Ordinarii
A. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 426
T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat) Cos. 431, Mil. Tr. c.p. 426, 420
Suffect Consuls
L. Quinctius (L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 438, 425, 420?
A. Sempronius (L. f. A. n. Atratinus) (Pat)
Special Commission
L. Sergius (Fidenas) (Pat) Cos. 437
Q. Servilius (Priscus Fidenas) (Pat)
Mam. Aemilius Mamercinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 438
Our Sources
Dr G reads Cicero De Republica 2.60; Diodorus Siculus 12.72.1-12.75.1; Festus 203-4L, 220L; Plutarch Romulus 16.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.30 and Cicero’s De Republica 2.60.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
This transcript was generated by Otter AI. Apologies for any errors.
Dr Rad 0:17 Welcome to the Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient
Dr Rad 0:23 ruins. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:35 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:15 And I am one of your other hosts Dr. G. Welcome to the show.
Dr Rad 1:21 That sounds like there are more to come.
Dr G 1:23 And you imagine if we expanded our repertoire and brought other people in as hosts? I don’t know if that the vibe would be the same.
Dr Rad 1:31 No, I don’t think each of us could handle that. We’re already too talkative. To two fabulous. Exactly. Yes. So, Dr. G, I’m so glad to see you. Because it’s been too long since we talked about the history over and from the founding of the city. Why it feels like more than 24 hours.
Dr G 1:51 I can’t get enough to be honest. And I’m excited to dive in because on the back of where we just wrapped up, which was 431 BCE, and I’m still getting over various mascius being such an incredible dude.
Dr Rad 2:08 And then disappearing without a trace. Suspicious. I mean, I think we all know what happened to him, but still,
Dr G 2:16 did it involve stepping maybe
Dr Rad 2:19 you don’t get to throw a name as fabulous as that out there. Maybe and then not tell me what happened to this man.
Dr G 2:25 Look, Livy is letting you down right now. I’m sorry.
Dr Rad 2:29 Well, I mean, Dionysius has disappeared. So you know, glass houses, stones?
Dr G 2:35 I might not have any sources, but boy, do I have names?
Dr Rad 2:39 That’s right. Dr. G, let’s do a quick recap. So we’ve given a bit of a hint there about what happened last episode. But where are we up to in the narrative of rooms history last time we spoke?
Dr G 2:52 Look, as far as I can remember, it was a pretty exciting year full of ups and downs, military prowess by the Romans, everybody heading out down south for a bit of a battle at Mount Algidus and just mayhem generally speaking, I believe there was a dictator could be wrong about that.
Dr Rad 3:13 There definitely was a dictator.
Dr G 3:15 I had lots of like little supplementary sources hinting at various things that happened in this year because it was Tubertus as dictator and he was quite an incredible figure. And he’s made it into the history books, partly on the back of a story that we’re not sure can be fully ascribed to him. It might be apocryphal, that involves the killing of his own son for disobeying orders on the battlefield.
Dr Rad 3:42 Yeah, Postumius Tubertus showed his stuff on the battlefield against the aqueous and the Volscians to great acclaim. And then bit sour for us. Not for the Romans killed his own son. Maybe, maybe not.
Dr G 3:57 Yeah, yeah, if so: tragic, but also a huge demonstration of Roman virtus, placing the state before anything else.
Dr Rad 4:05 Exactly. So basically, we left Rome on a bit of a military high, I suppose you could say last episode. Yeah. They’re excited. Yeah, exactly. Which means it’s a perfect time to transition into another year. So I think we’re heading into 430 BC.
All right, Dr. G, so it’s 430 BCE. Tell me who’s in charge.
Dr G 4:53 So it’s a good question. I literally have the names of the consoles and the names of the sensors. And that is almost all I have in terms of source material.
Dr Rad 5:06 I kind of fake it. Yeah, I kind of fake it and that’s why I thought I’d let you tell me who the magistrates were
Dr G 5:11 That’s very kind of you. So as you know, Dionysus of Halicarnassus is sadly missing in action is becoming more and more fragmentary, and will soon be completely gone. The Fasti Capitolini is also missing for these years. So we’re relying on some fastI records that are kind of like a little bit of a backup system. This means I’m left with source material like Diodorus Siculus, a little reference from Cicero, and a bit of Festus, which has never really been translated into English, so I had to do a bit of a dodge on the Latin. So
Dr Rad 5:48 Latin Oh, no.
Dr G 5:50 I know I used to be alright at Latin. Now it’s just a little bit tricky, but you know, I gave it a whirl. So our consuls for this year. Lucius, in brackets or Gaius Papirius, son of nobody grandson of nobody, Crassus, consul for the second time, apparently, also consul in 436 BCE.
Dr Rad 6:15 Yeah, they’re amazing. Papirius I remember that
Dr G 6:18 Papirius Crassus and he’s joined by Lucius. Or Gaius, Julius Vopiscus Iullus . Also a patrician, and was previously military tribune with consular power in 438 for people following the career, like a red hot razor, and was also most famously master of the horse in the previous year to Tubertus himself. So this guy has been elevated from being the master of the horse to the consulship. Fancy, Nancy.
Dr Rad 6:55 Nice, nice. Now, I believe you mentioned we have some censors as well.
Dr G 6:59 We do. And I mean, things are gonna get a bit weird with the sensors, I think, as I’m sure you’re about to tell me, but we have Lucius Papirius who sounds like he must be related to Lucius Papirius, the consul. I was like, I don’t think this is the same person. But I also can’t be sure Rome…
Dr Rad 7:20 I’m not gonna say anything yet. I’m not gonna say any
Dr G 7:22 Rome and their names we’ve got two Lucius Papirii, what could be going on. And we also have Publius Pinarius as the co-censor. So the job of the censor is count everything up, basically, check how the population is going, look at the distribution of the wealth and so forth. So I guess we’ll see what happens.
Dr Rad 7:47 We will, we will, I mean, their censorship has been an interesting controversy in this past decade. So it’s interesting that we have sensors named again. Now look, I’m not going to not gonna lie. Livy does not have a huge amount of detail for this year. If I’m not alone, I’m going to say yeah, I’m going to say I think this episode might be a low point for Livy as well, and you’ll see why later on. Not as it is not interesting, but just as in in terms of the depth of the information provided, but well, we’ll get to that. Of course, here we are in 430 BC, and what are the tribune of the plebs pushing for but military tributes with consular power? I think you can already know how that wound up given that you’ve given me the magistrates as consuls.
Dr G 8:37 Yeah. So they wanted this year to be filled with military treatments with consular power. Is that the idea?
Dr Rad 8:43 Yeah, they wanted military ship into the consular power but didn’t get there. It seems to be the way to be honest. They seem to lose more often than they win in this battle. So the previous year, as we mentioned, we had some conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians mentioned and the Romans did pretty well in that scenario. In this year the aqueous erstwhile enemies of room sent envoys to the Romans Senate requesting a treaty the Senate come back yes the Senate come back to the aqueous and say, You know what, why don’t you just flat out surrender and say that were awesome and where the man and nobody can be at room?
Dr G 9:23 Fascinating. Okay, so that’s, that’s not really a treaty. That’s just they’re asking Romans like, rather than a treaty, how about you completely submit to us?
Dr Rad 9:32 I think that the Romans are doing what I try and do, which is you ask for something that’s more than you want. And then you work your way down.
Dr G 9:41 I see. I see a great negotiating strategy from the victor of the battle.
Dr Rad 9:46 Yes, exactly. Anyway, it ends up happening that the Aequians secure an eight year truce with Rome.
Dr G 9:54 Okay, very specific. We’ll see how that goes. I know
Dr Rad 9:57 it is very specific, isn’t it? Eight years like why not just and even 10. Guys, just an x.
Dr G 10:03 I mean they use base 10. They, that’s odd. Okay.
Dr Rad 10:07 Yeah. Anyway, the Volscians of course, we’re also defeated in this recent military combat that was going on. But internally, they’re now facing division. And to be honest, this I love this because we often find that we end up talking about like, what’s happening in Rome after something big has happened. So it’s kind of nice to get a sneak peek into what apparently is happening for the Volscians. So there are those who want to secure peace with Rome, and those who want to, I think, pursue more war. So they’re kind of arguing amongst themselves, which means Rome is in a very peaceful state, right? There’s not a lot going on.
Dr G 10:49 Oh, yeah. Well, if the Volscii Aren’t organised, then they probably still mourning the loss of Messius. Well, I did say I kind of like if we can breed them like that maybe we can take the whole place and make it our own.
Dr Rad 11:01 Who knows. So the Romans turned to what they normally do in peaceful times, which is needless bureaucracy.
Dr G 11:09 I see the censorship I sense is coming.
Dr Rad 11:12 Yes, this is where it is coming in. So Livy mentioned that there was a new law introduced regarding the valuation of fines, which was very popular with the people. Now when it actually happened was that the tribune of the plebs were actually putting this law together, and they knew it would go down well with the people. Unfortunately, one of them got a little bit too chatty, loose lips sink, ships strategy. And so the consuls ended up putting forth a law before the tribunes and they get the credit.
Dr G 11:43 Oh, no. Okay, so distributors come up with a great law, only to have it stolen out from underneath them by the consuls. Fascinating.
Dr Rad 11:53 Yeah. Now, of course, I had no idea what they were talking about in terms of what this actually involved. I’ve got a little bit of detail on this, I think, okay, I can I can I can say this is where I think Cicero comes in.
Dr G 12:05 Yeah. Yeah. So Cicero’s sort of jumps in to the to breach the gap, as it were, of all of our the source material. And, you know, he’s spoiling on about a whole bunch of things like Cicero does. But he’s honing in on this moment of the censorship. And he gets the names, right, generally speaking, and he talks about this transfer of the imposition of fines. So and it’s something to do with lightening the final load for people and figuring out how to measure that so that they can distribute the fines appropriately, but also lower their sort of consequence. In effect, it seems like fines are getting out of control, and nobody’s very happy about it. And their choice seems to be to shift a number of cattle out of private ownership and into public ownership. Now, these are two details. And I do not know how they’re related. How does shifting some cows, from private to public ownership actually alleviate the situation with fines? And I think this is related to how they measure wealth. So how they count up somebody’s assets for the censorship test. If the cows are owned by the people, ‘the public’ as it were, rather than by a certain person individually, then that capital doesn’t count to your asset marker. So you’re looking after some cows, but you don’t technically own the cows.
Dr Rad 13:42 Interesting. Yeah. Well, when I was sort of doing a bit of digging into this, the previous law that was replaced by this law was apparently a local the Lex Aternia Tarpeia, which was introduced in 454 BCE, so not that long ago. And it apparently had set up the conversion rate for fine. So one ox was the equivalent of 10 sheep was the equivalent of 100 pounds of bronze or 100 asses – aw yeah. Give me that booty. Apparently, see, we’re not entirely sure what is happening with this new law. But we think that the conversion rate is what has been made more favourable. And probably because there might have been people who wish to pay in money, rather than in things like cattle, I guess. And so kind of might have ended the optional payment. This is just a theory. This is a set in stone. It might have ended the optional payment and it might mean that all fines had to be paid in money from this point onwards.
Dr G 14:51 Ah, this might tie in I’m not sure necessarily how, but Festus does suggest In a passage 220, from the Lindsay addition, if anybody’s keen for that, that it was about estimating cattle based on the hundreds within the herd for and then sheep were estimated based on the 10s in the herd. So they came up with a new counting method that allowed them to count less, essentially.
Dr Rad 15:22 Right. Okay, gotcha. That’s it. It might be there. Yeah, the conversion rate kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, clearly something is going on. It’s getting mathematical. I don’t care for it. Shall we move on to 429 BCE? Because that is all I have.
Dr G 15:38 You want to end this year on the high note of bovine counting and we’ll leave it at that.
Dr Rad 15:43 I think I’d like to I’d like to leave the cows behind. Let’s move on.
Dr G 15:51 Or as the case may be, all right, well, that wraps up what a year to be in Rome.
Dr Rad 16:21 Okay, 429 BCE. Tell me what you got Dr. G.
Dr G 16:24 Well, no surprise Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.
Dr Rad 16:30 I had a hunch. I had a hunch. I’ve learned from history.
Dr G 16:36 I think I have even less source material for 429 that I did for 430. Which is kind of a abysmal, because all I’ve got is the consul names. And a little snippet from Diodorus Siculus. Who as we know, tries his best, but is often a little bit confused. So I mean, I’ll take you through it. We have as our consuls, apparently Hostus Lucretius Tricipitinus, so I hate that name. Tri-cip-i-tinus, yeah. And Lucius Sergius Fidenas. And he’s consul for the second time previously consul in 437. And also previously and a little bit more recently, military tribute with consular power in 433. They’re the only magistrates I’ve got names for for this year.
Dr Rad 17:33 I don’t have any other magistrates either. So strap yourself in this is what Livy tells me happened in 429. Nothing? Nothing happened.
Dr G 17:45 What now?
Dr Rad 17:46 Yeah, no, not as in not as in he’s missing like Dionysius, as in, he actually is there. And he just says, Look, nothing happened. So let’s just move straight onto 428.
Dr G 17:56 Oh, incredible stuff. Livy. I mean, he loves to talk, I can’t believe we found nothing on this time period at all. Well, that means my source becomes very handy. Diodorus Siculus you back in the mix, buddy. So the thing with Diodorus Siculus. And it’s been going on for a while in his narrative is that there is a about a 10 year discrepancy or more between the things he tells us and when they happened, and how they might line up with when the Roman say that they happened in Rome. So the annalists may be a little bit out in their count, Diodorus might be a little bit out in his count. But the thing that he’s giving us that the Romans aren’t giving us yet is he’s lining things up according to the Athenian dating system, the eponymous Archon in Athens, and generally speaking historians feel pretty confident about those dates. So it’s a bit problematic for all of the Roman writers like Livy to be like, it’s 429 when Diodorus is like it’s 422. We got some missing years somewhere in there something has happened. But the thing that redeems the Roman analysts and where Diodorus then immediately lets himself down as he gets everybody’s names slightly wrong. So
Dr Rad 18:15 It doesn’t bode well.
Dr G 18:26 No, it’s not great. I feel like he’s probably maybe okay on numbers, but he’s not great on his source material. So there’s a lot going on. He says the consuls for this year are Opiter Lucretius, ‘Opiter’ being a name that we’ve never heard of as a praenomen, so nice try, but probably wrong. And then Lucius Sergius Fideniates which is very close. Yeah, very close. He’s just gotten the last one a little bit a little bit smooshed up.
Dr Rad 19:51 Yeah, but I’m not giving him a cigar.
Dr G 19:53 Yeah, but maybe you overheard at a dinner party. You know, I feel like that’s the Diodorus Siculus way where it’s like somebody’s saying the names to him when he’s writing them down. He looks at his notes later. And he’s like, What did I even put there? Yes. For the manuscripts.
Dr Rad 20:06 Yeah. Look, I agree. Certainly there have been modern academics that have suggested that actually, if we, we probably should shift events around a little bit. And there probably was stuff happening in this year. But just in the version of Livy that we have the way that Livy chose to record things, it seems like a very dull year, indeed.
Dr G 20:28 Nothing to report a living well, well, well,
Dr Rad 20:33 I think we’re gonna go for a record. That means we’re on tour 428 BCE. Oh, we’re speeding through thing I know, people will think we’ve had a stroke,
Dr G 20:43 Dear listeners, calm yourselves. It’s a whole new year again.
Dr Rad 21:10 Now, this is a bit of a confusing year, as far as magistrates are concerned.
Dr G 21:14 This is very confusing. Yeah. And we’ve got some, there’s a whole bunch of potential issues here. So for instance, one of the things that I was holding on to for a long time, and I think I flagged in many episodes prior to now is that Dionysius of Halicarnassus kicks back in about 428. But I think I was mistaken about that. Having read what is there in the source material, in preparation for this episode, I was like, wait a minute, that doesn’t sound like 428 to me at all. So some minor revisions might have to take place.
Dr Rad 21:56 That’s all right, wait, as long as we know that, we’re going to briefly catch a glimpse of him again one day, that’s all we need to know right now.
Dr G 22:03 He shall return – not in his full glory – but he’ll be back limping across the finish line in his fragments. So we have two sets of consuls. In this year, as far as I’m aware we’ve got which means we have to divide them up between the consul ordinarii, the ones who named the year and the consul suffectii the ones who sort of fill in, in the back catalogue. But I also have and this is where Broughton, bless his soul is always so helpful. Also knows that there is a special commission in this. Yeah. And there’s a bunch of people involved in the special commission. So we’ve got plenty of names, even if we’re not really quite sure. What is going on.
Dr Rad 22:47 I think I can help you with that maybe actually does provide me with some detail this year. So why don’t why don’t you tell me who the magistrates are and then I’ll try and fill in the blanks.
Dr G 22:55 All right, this this sounds good to me. It’s a deal. It’s a deal. So our first consul is Aulus Cornelius Cossus.
Dr Rad 23:05 Not the most handsome man in the world.
Dr G 23:10 You may remember him, dear listeners, for being awesome. In 437, where you may have first encountered him, he was merely a military tribune. But this year, he’s actually a consul.
Dr Rad 23:25 Nice.
Dr G 23:26 So you know, I mean, I don’t know what he’s been doing for the last 10 years, but I’m gonna assume he’s even more handsome than before.
Dr Rad 23:33 Absolutely handsome men don’t need to work hard for political office.
Dr G 23:37 I wouldn’t assume so especially when women have the vote. Oh, wait. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus. Another quite familiar name at this point is this is his second bite at the consular cherry previously consul in 431 and also most likely one of the sons with a very famous Cincinnatus.
Dr Rad 24:03 I weas gonna say he’s not THE Cincinnatus.
Dr G 24:06 No. Poenas Cincinnatus is one of the sons of the very famous twice dictator Cincinnatus for those tuning in from Cincinnati and possibly also the younger brother of Lucis Quinctius Cincinnatus who has exactly the same name as the great man himself, so very confusing. So those two are consuls. Then apparently we have another two sets of consuls and that would involve Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.
Dr Rad 24:39 Right.
Dr G 24:39 The brother
Dr Rad 24:41 Just to makes things even more confusing. Yeah.
Dr G 24:44 Two Cincinnatuses consul in the same year.
Dr Rad 24:47 Did that make them a Cincinnati?
Dr G 24:49 I think it does. I think I think we’ve reached the Cincinnati moment. It’s finally happened and also Aulus Sempronius Atratinus.
Dr Rad 25:01 We’ve heard that name before.
Dr G 25:04 Yeah, I mean, it sounds vaguely familiar to me. But I haven’t written any notes on that. So I have not done my due diligence with that guy.
Dr Rad 25:10 Now, I think I don’t think it’s necessarily the same person. But I do remember that name of Atratinus. And of course, Sempronius. I mean, the Sempronii are going to pop up again and again.
Dr G 25:23 They are going to have a long legacy as patrician family.
Dr Rad 25:26 Yeah.
Dr G 25:27 So that’s our two pairs of consuls. Then we head into our special commission, and I’m excited to learn about what this special commission might be all about. But it involves at least three people. Lucius Sergius Fidenas, who cropped up in the previous year as consul. Quintus Servilius Priscus Fidenas. So, two Fideni in there.
Dr Rad 25:54 Yeah.
Dr G 25:54 And Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus, who we also have previously seen was a military tribute with consular power in 438. And also seems to been appointed to investigate the participation of the Fidenates in the raids led by Veii
Dr Rad 26:19 Yeah, so that’s what I’m going to fill in a little bit for you. So let’s get to it. Okay, so we’ve got our consuls of Cossus, who, as you mentioned, was our ridiculously good looking tribune who managed to defeat an Etruscan King on the battlefield had the whole spolia opima thing going on for him which nobody, but Romulus had managed to do so what a consul. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus, as you said, now, what starts to happen under their consulship is that the people of Veii start to make moves on Roman territory. A common tale, we have talked about the fact that this time period as much as it seems to be filled with these awesome Hollywood blockbuster epic battles, really seems to be this constant kneeling of Rome and its neighbours and they’re constantly trying to get each other’s territory and steal each other’s stuff. I mean, honestly, it feels a bit like kindergarten sometimes, Dr. G. Now is also rumoured, as you just mentioned that some of the young men from Fidenae were in on these raids. Okay, we’re taking part. Lest we forget, the Romans aren’t feeling really great about Fidenae right now do you want to remind us why?
Dr G 27:40 There seems to be a bit of a problem. So in the history of Fidenae, it starts out as a Roman colony that seems to be it’s how it comes into being. So the Romans always consider it theirs. And it’s actually a really strategic anchor point to the slight north of Rome, because it sits on the same side of the Tiber as Rome. And this means that they’ve got a sort of like a defence in the north, that allows them to sort of feel more at ease about where their enemies might be coming at them from. Problem for Rome is that the Fidemae populace decides that they’re not having anything to do with Rome anymore, and they decide to throw in their lot with the Etruscans, which makes a lot of sense, the Etruscans are really quite close. They are a much more numerous people. And if you were looking at a side by side comparison of who you should ally with at in this time period, you’ve got Rome, a single city, a little outpost, run by a bunch of gangsters, versus the Etruscans, who have centuries of history in the region, and a full 12 member kingship going on, there is a lot of power and a lot of history there. They’re well embedded in their power structures. So it makes sense that a reasonable offer might have been made to Fidenae and they fluttered their eyelashes at they and said, well yes, of course we’d love to join you. And Veii and the Etruscans now have a strategic position to filter into Rome from a side that they are not usually able to approach the city from.
Dr Rad 29:26 Strategically important. Absolutely. So obviously, they have a bitter taste in the room, his mouth and I’m going to tolerate these rumours that are going on there like look, it’s one thing for today like we expect it from Veii, but Fidenae after everything we’ve just been through, I don’t know think so. So as you mentioned, a special commission is set up I feel like we need to have some some cry music Don’t Don’t do too. And so we got Lucius Sergius, Quintus Servilius and Mamercus Aemilius according to Livy who are putting in charge of looking into these rumours, and some men could not account for their whereabouts at the time in question. So I’m definitely putting the Law and Order vibes right now.
Dr G 30:12 You don’t have an alibi. Why? No, sir. I was sleeping in the field.
Dr Rad 30:17 Yeah, they were away from Fidenae. And they but where were they? Who could vouch for their whereabouts? Nobody. That’s who. So they are banished to Ostia.
Dr G 30:26 I mean, that’s pretty disappointing that they couldn’t even get a friend to lie for them.
Dr Rad 30:32 It would seem to be pretty easy back in this day and age but it’s not like they’re battling you know, CCTV and mobile phones cell tower was pinging all around. Nonetheless, the goats were quiet that day. And nobody could say where they were. They’re banished to Ostia. And I guess Rome is also starting to think about, hmm, what can we do with this whole Fidenae situation? Because clearly, they’re still not really on board with this whole idea of being allied with the most awesome city state in all of Italy. Not that it’s known as Italy right now, but hey. So they decided they’re going to send more settlers and establish what not establish a colony, but reinforce the colony at feed name. And so they take land from the property of people who had died. And they give it to the new colonists. So they’re sort of trying to, you know, set them up.
Dr G 31:27 Okay, so they shift some things around like, yeah, it’s an offworld opportunity.
Dr Rad 31:33 Some creative accounting.
Dr G 31:34 Yeah, it’s gonna be very exciting for you here, take this stuff. Yeah, I think the other thing that might be said for this year is this is the year that Cossus holds the consulship. So for some scholars, and it would make sense to go down this path, this is actually the year where the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius, is met in battle and is slain directly by Cossus.
Dr Rad 32:03 Okay, see, I have that a little bit later in some of the stuff I’ve written. So definitely the fact that he’s consulship. Now is Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 32:11 This is yeah, this is one of the candidates is going to pop up. This is going to crop up again.
Dr Rad 32:16 And of course, we’ve also got Mamercus Aemilius too. Yeah. also has those connotations. So yes, this is one of the candidates, but I definitely with my Livy narrative, because you know, Livy is my man. I’m going to plump for a bit later on. But anyway, so we’ve got to colony set up at Fidenae. And then of course, it’s been far too peaceful. And Disney-like for too long, Dr. G, a drought hits are really, really bad drought.
Dr G 32:16 I see. Okay, I think these things might crop up in a slightly different year for me. So we’ll, we’ll see, we’ll keep going.
Dr Rad 32:54 Okay.
Dr G 32:55 I’m interested.
Dr Rad 32:55 So Livy tells me that it’s not just the fact that it’s not raining very much, which is part of the problem, but also what he calls perennial streams, do not have enough water. So I think that probably means that obviously, where people would normally locate their water, it’s, you know, they don’t usually have any problems from the sources that are drained from from the ground. They’re also drying up.
Dr G 33:19 Yeah, yeah. So creeks and small rivers are also dry. Yes, it’s bad time.
Dr Rad 33:25 Yeah, exactly. Now, of course, when we don’t have enough water, what happens? People start to die. So basically, the cattle the first today, so they start dying, and you’d find them sort of strewn all around these dried up water sources where they would normally go to get a drink. And they’re also starting to die from mange, which is still a disease that can afflict various animals these days. But basically, it’s some sort of skin condition, which is caused by these parasitic microscopic mites. And what ends up happening is when you’ve got all this drought, people are suffering, cattle are suffering, cattle are dying, cattle are diseased, sure enough, our disease spreads from the cattle to the Roman people. So at first, you start to see people who are living in more rural areas and slaves starting to die, but then also it spreads into the city. And it’s obviously again, I mean, it feels like only yesterday we were talking about a bad sickness in Rome, but it seems like once again, the Romans are really suffering badly.
Dr G 34:28 Yeah, I think we would have to assume that if we’re in a situation of this kind of drought, we’re looking at years of consequence, not just a single year, like in order to be in a situation where usual water sources are actually dry. This is an ongoing drought that’s been happening for some time and it’s now getting quite severe.
Dr Rad 34:51 Absolutely. Now, the people because they are suffering so badly, they start getting desperate and what In terms foreign superstitions become very popular, and other people in room are starting to take advantage of the situation, presumably to, like make not money like cash, I would presume, but presumably to earn some sort of financial gain or to win influence with people. So some people are pretending to be seers. So sort of taking advantage of that superstitious state desperate state that people are in. And they start talking the room and people into adopting new types of beliefs and weird ways of sacrificing, and it’s happening in their homes, the leading citizens start to notice that it’s spreading everywhere. And that there are just like strange sacrifices happening all over the city, because the people just, they can’t help but think that they’ve done something to upset the gods, and that the only way that they’re going to make it right is if they figure out, you know, what’s the right offering? What’s the right sacrifice? How can I possibly, you know, restore the balance between our people and the gods. So it seems to be getting out of hand, I’m gonna unpack what this all means in a second. Eventually, the angels are put in charge of ensuring that everyone returns to normal, and I’m using my flesh rabbits religious practices, and that they return to only worshipping Roman gods in a Roman way, God dammit.
Dr G 36:25 I see. I mean, it makes a lot of sense that things like this would happen. And it is also quite interesting that the Roman response to this would, is not that sort of expansive, inclusive sort of approach that we see much later in Rome, where they, they really do just sort of absorb and embrace and adapt different modes of worship into their own way of doing things. There seems to be like a distinct moment of crisis, in terms of like ritual practice, brought about by environmental crisis.
Dr Rad 37:00 Yes, absolutely. And I think we can sympathise with that these days, even though it might not necessarily be an environmental crisis, although it might be. We see people in tough times these days, often, that’s the moment that they find some sort of faith because you know, when push comes to shove, and you’re desperate, you might look for answers in places you haven’t considered before. Now, that’s not to say that the Romans haven’t considered being religious for for all, but they just might be looking in into new gods. Now.
Dr G 37:28 Well, certainly if the rituals that they’ve been performing, haven’t done the trick, and the drought is getting worse, then it would be a reasonable thing to assume that maybe there’s something wrong with the ritual practice.
Dr Rad 37:40 Yes. So looking at how academics have interpreted what Livy is saying here, because he doesn’t give me any specifics about exactly what kind of practices and that sort of thing, it seems to be assumed that he’s referring to the cult of Apollo. So you might have forgotten, but in 431, they dedicated a temple to Apolo, when we’re suffering from that really terrible plague, it actually been vowed in for 33. But it wasn’t until first 431 that the temple was, you know, up and running. And so it might be something to do with that,
Dr G 38:19 Somebody built it wrong. You gotta gotta take that down.
Dr Rad 38:23 Well, it might just made it that was like, you know, the new cult on the block. Oh, yeah. So it might be that there is something like that going on. It’s possible. That’s what they’re referring to. And it won’t be the last time that we see this kind of outbreak of extreme. Well, what the room is sore is like more extreme or superstitious practices, like people getting a bit caught up in things, we’re gonna see this again, when we get to the years of like the Second Punic War and that sort of thing. Now that we’ve isolated Yeah, the final weird thing I’m going to note is that we of course, have the seemingly plebeian aediles. Now, it’s not explicit that this is who they are, but possibly, it’s the plebeian aediles who have been put in charge with restoring everything to rights, which might not seem to add up at first, if we think about the kinds of functions that the aediles serve later on in Rome’s history where they’re more concerned with, I suppose, more prosaic matters of life rather than religious beliefs. But for this earlier period, it does seem that there is potentially a connection for them where there is that sort of religious aspects obviously there I mean, all magistrates obviously, it’s not like in the modern day where you have a real separation between politics and religion. Obviously, all magistrates are going to be involved in religious practices somehow, whether it’s the rights they have to carry out or whatever, but But we’ve seen also that it seems like the Aidells were the ones put in charge of the publishing of the 12 Tables, they also possibly were overseeing senatorial records and making sure that they were kept at this point in time. And they therefore might have been seen as valid people to be overseeing how people are observing their religion, I suppose. And that, yeah, they have this sort of religious aspect to their role.
Dr G 40:32 Interesting, very interesting. So we’ve had this mention of aediles, we don’t know, we don’t have any names.
Dr Rad 40:41 We do not. We didn’t know. And then so this is all speculation, we don’t really know what’s going on here. We don’t have enough detail. And it’s not that they’re trying to wipe out the cult of Apollo. They’re just trying to make sure that it doesn’t get excessive. And there is a balance between what and who the Romans are worshipping.
Dr G 41:01 And there’s also the broader question of like, what’s going on with like, the demarcation of responsibility here. So we have had previous years before now where we’ve known who the Pontifex Maximus is, yes. And it doesn’t happen very often in this early period. But they have been mentioned. And we also get this sense, particularly from very early on, definitely pre Republic, that there are a whole bunch of really quite significant priesthoods that are already in existence, such as the fetiales, such as a whole bunch of sort of priests to Jupiter, priests to Mars, the pontificates as a college, augers. And so the idea that it is in this moment, that the responsibility is delegated to the aediles to try and sort out this issue does raise some questions
Dr Rad 42:08 It does. And as I say, it’s just a theory. But I think it’s, it does sort of highlight that. We honestly can’t say a lot for certain about a lot of people’s positions at this point in time. It’s not that they are they’re not obviously a pretty straight as you’re saying they’re not a pretty soon, as you say it’s more that something’s been delegated to them, and that they might have been seen as the kind of people that were able to oversee something like this,
Dr G 42:32 The idea that this could fall within their remit somehow,
Dr Rad 42:36 Potentially, but again, like I think it just sort of even even if this is just a theory, it’s just once again, a reminder that we really know so little about exactly what being a consul this period, you know,
Dr G 42:47 well, yes. And I think, I mean, it’s worth noting that often, this has been simplified as well, like when we talk about consuls in this period, we’re not even sure that they’re called ‘consul’.
Dr Rad 42:57 Exactly. That’s the question marks and it’s just sort of highlights that if you look up what an aedile does, this would probably not be something that I think they would normally associated with when you get later in Rome’s history.
Dr G 43:10 Yeah, and we’re in this period where things nothing is solid. Uncertainty is high. Yes. I think unless you have other details this might be the place to wrap up this episode.
Dr Rad 43:24 That is all I have. But I will say that some of the details that I’ve just given you are going to come back in the most major way you have no idea or maybe you do I don’t know if Dionysius is kicked back in or not but the next episode some of these little seeds that are planted they’re going to flower into something horrible.
Dr G 43:42 Oh, I can’t wait to find out well and well if you share your story with me I’ll let you know what I discovered.
Dr Rad 43:50 All right, Dr. G, that means it is once again time for the Partial Pick
all right, Dr. G, so this is the point where we sum up Well normally the year that was but in this case it’s the three years that we’re and we rate room out of five different categories and in each of those categories, they have the potential to score 10 Golden Eagles Something tells me it’s going to be rough today.
Dr G 44:23 Yeah, like in a year where nothing happened well all right, so let’s see how they do the first category is military clout
Dr Rad 44:34 Nope that to stick really
Dr G 44:39 I couldn’t fight I had the mange
Dr Rad 44:43 Yep, so that’s that’s this year. So what’s our next category diplomacy. Okay, well, there’s a little bit of that going on here. We’ve got the truce with the aqueous that’s true
Dr G 44:53 and they did negotiate some people out of feed and a get you there get you to Ostia will bring it A pack of robots to replace you. I mean, they could be seen as diplomatic. For the
Dr Rad 45:05 Romans. I think that is diplomatic. They didn’t just outright kill them. Not Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So what, like four or five? I mean, it’s not that impressive.
Dr G 45:16 Well, I feel like yeah, the diplomacy with feed and a doesn’t count for much. I don’t think that’s maybe a one. But actually coming to it. You truce with the aliens and the volsky. I that actually does sound pretty. Oh, okay. The moleskin is under the bus like that. I retract I retract the A quien treaty. Yeah, true. So I should say so the treaty a truce for eight years? Yeah. Yeah, look, I’m gonna give them about a five.
Dr Rad 45:48 Okay, so we’ll give them a five. Alright, so we’ve got five what’s our next category?
Dr G 45:51 Expansion? No.
Dr Rad 45:54 Fear while I feel
Dr G 45:56 it’s hard to expand under these conditions, they’re being pressed from all sides.
Dr Rad 46:00 They are and from and internally the cows.
Dr G 46:07 Sorry, I was like being pressed internally, I went somewhere else. We’re tourists
Dr Rad 46:14 can’t say that I do.
Dr G 46:17 That a lot of winters going on. No specific examples come to mind. They’re just they’re doing things but uh, and citizen score.
Dr Rad 46:27 Look, for the first few years that we talked about the fact that there’s a lot of peace that nothing is happening.
Dr G 46:33 There’s fines being alleviated? I mean, it all sounds pretty good. Really.
Dr Rad 46:37 That’s pretty good. It’s just unfortunately, we’ve bundled it together with this hideous route, which makes everyone really suffer and makes them ill. Yeah. So it’s gonna be balanced out. I think maybe maybe like a four
Dr G 46:53 points for reduced fines, taking your way points for the mange
Dr Rad 46:58 given that we’re not really entirely sure exactly. What that whole fine business involved. It’s all very speculative. I’m
Dr G 47:06 assuming it benefits the rich more than it benefits the blue bands. But I could be wrong about that. We have
Dr Rad 47:13 talked a lot with the people. So I’m presuming it was actually to their benefit and don’t don’t
Dr G 47:19 look for something into things that haven’t been good for them before.
Dr Rad 47:23 This is true. But the fact that Libby says the tributes of the collapse were the ones that are originally coming up with it. And then the console stole their idea. And
Dr G 47:32 maybe, well, maybe a four then as you say,
Dr Rad 47:37 Okay, well that actually you know what, it’s better than I thought although not great when you consider it three years rolled into one cart with a total of nine golden eagles. Dr. G.
Dr G 47:48 Wow, Rome, you’ve really excelled?
Dr Rad 47:53 Yeah, yeah. Definitely have Hey, you know what, there? It’s definitely better than some of the other years we’ve dealt with in the 40s. I thought that the December it was a bad period, but actually the full 30s have been rough.
Dr G 48:07 They have I mean, between like the absence of source material and just like hit after hit to the Roman psyche. It’s been a tough time.
Dr Rad 48:17 Well, that’s a G, there’s no one I would rather talk about nothing. We’re
Dr G 48:23 gonna take that as a compliment.
Dr Rad 48:25 Absolutely. Join us next time for the podcast about nothing. Oh,
Dr G 48:30 from the foundation to nothing.
Dr Rad 48:44 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and automated transcripts in our show notes. You too can support our show and help us to produce more intriguing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we’d like to give a special shout out to some of our newest Patreon, Daniel, Nicole, Vincent and Michael. There are other ways that you can support our show. We have merchandise a collaboration with Bridget Clark on Gumroad. And we now also have a book and you can find all the details of that on the highlands press website as well as our website if you’d like to purchase a copy of Rex, the seven kings of Rome, our popular history. However, if you are travel short of denari, we would massively appreciate it. If you told someone about the show. That kind of recommendation is worth its weight in gold. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Hey, Dr. G, would you know what to do if a fella started floating in the fire before you?
Dr G 50:29 Probably not?
Dr Rad 50:32 Well, then have I got the book for you? Did you know that we wrote a book?
Dr G 50:37 What we wrote a book? No way.
Dr Rad 50:39 I think we wrote a book. Yeah, absolutely. We read a book and it’s called Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome.
Dr G 50:47 Oh, that’s right. The details are starting to come back to me now. Yes, yes, the Regal period. What a time for the Romans to be alive. And also what a time for historians to revisit and to consider the source material.
Dr Rad 51:00 Absolutely. So if you’re interested in picking up a copy of our popular history of the Roman monarchy, please head over to the highlands press website.
Dr G 51:10 That’s Highlands, Dash press.com (
Dr Rad 0:17 Welcome to the Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient
Dr Rad 0:23 ruins. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
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Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:15 And I am one of your other hosts Dr. G. Welcome to the show.
Dr Rad 1:21 That sounds like there are more to come.
Dr G 1:23 And you imagine if we expanded our repertoire and brought other people in as hosts? I don’t know if that the vibe would be the same.
Dr Rad 1:31 No, I don’t think each of us could handle that. We’re already too talkative. To two fabulous. Exactly. Yes. So, Dr. G, I’m so glad to see you. Because it’s been too long since we talked about the history over and from the founding of the city. Why it feels like more than 24 hours.
Dr G 1:51 I can’t get enough to be honest. And I’m excited to dive in because on the back of where we just wrapped up, which was 431 BCE, and I’m still getting over various mascius being such an incredible dude.
Dr Rad 2:08 And then disappearing without a trace. Suspicious. I mean, I think we all know what happened to him, but still,
Dr G 2:16 did it involve stepping maybe
Dr Rad 2:19 you don’t get to throw a name as fabulous as that out there. Maybe and then not tell me what happened to this man.
Dr G 2:25 Look, Livy is letting you down right now. I’m sorry.
Dr Rad 2:29 Well, I mean, Dionysius has disappeared. So you know, glass houses, stones?
Dr G 2:35 I might not have any sources, but boy, do I have names?
Dr Rad 2:39 That’s right. Dr. G, let’s do a quick recap. So we’ve given a bit of a hint there about what happened last episode. But where are we up to in the narrative of rooms history last time we spoke?
Dr G 2:52 Look, as far as I can remember, it was a pretty exciting year full of ups and downs, military prowess by the Romans, everybody heading out down south for a bit of a battle at Mount Algidus and just mayhem generally speaking, I believe there was a dictator could be wrong about that.
Dr Rad 3:13 There definitely was a dictator.
Dr G 3:15 I had lots of like little supplementary sources hinting at various things that happened in this year because it was Tubertus as dictator and he was quite an incredible figure. And he’s made it into the history books, partly on the back of a story that we’re not sure can be fully ascribed to him. It might be apocryphal, that involves the killing of his own son for disobeying orders on the battlefield.
Dr Rad 3:42 Yeah, Postumius Tubertus showed his stuff on the battlefield against the aqueous and the Volscians to great acclaim. And then bit sour for us. Not for the Romans killed his own son. Maybe, maybe not.
Dr G 3:57 Yeah, yeah, if so: tragic, but also a huge demonstration of Roman virtus, placing the state before anything else.
Dr Rad 4:05 Exactly. So basically, we left Rome on a bit of a military high, I suppose you could say last episode. Yeah. They’re excited. Yeah, exactly. Which means it’s a perfect time to transition into another year. So I think we’re heading into 430 BC.
All right, Dr. G, so it’s 430 BCE. Tell me who’s in charge.
Dr G 4:53 So it’s a good question. I literally have the names of the consoles and the names of the sensors. And that is almost all I have in terms of source material.
Dr Rad 5:06 I kind of fake it. Yeah, I kind of fake it and that’s why I thought I’d let you tell me who the magistrates were
Dr G 5:11 That’s very kind of you. So as you know, Dionysus of Halicarnassus is sadly missing in action is becoming more and more fragmentary, and will soon be completely gone. The Fasti Capitolini is also missing for these years. So we’re relying on some fastI records that are kind of like a little bit of a backup system. This means I’m left with source material like Diodorus Siculus, a little reference from Cicero, and a bit of Festus, which has never really been translated into English, so I had to do a bit of a dodge on the Latin. So
Dr Rad 5:48 Latin Oh, no.
Dr G 5:50 I know I used to be alright at Latin. Now it’s just a little bit tricky, but you know, I gave it a whirl. So our consuls for this year. Lucius, in brackets or Gaius Papirius, son of nobody grandson of nobody, Crassus, consul for the second time, apparently, also consul in 436 BCE.
Dr Rad 6:15 Yeah, they’re amazing. Papirius I remember that
Dr G 6:18 Papirius Crassus and he’s joined by Lucius. Or Gaius, Julius Vopiscus Iullus . Also a patrician, and was previously military tribune with consular power in 438 for people following the career, like a red hot razor, and was also most famously master of the horse in the previous year to Tubertus himself. So this guy has been elevated from being the master of the horse to the consulship. Fancy, Nancy.
Dr Rad 6:55 Nice, nice. Now, I believe you mentioned we have some censors as well.
Dr G 6:59 We do. And I mean, things are gonna get a bit weird with the sensors, I think, as I’m sure you’re about to tell me, but we have Lucius Papirius who sounds like he must be related to Lucius Papirius, the consul. I was like, I don’t think this is the same person. But I also can’t be sure Rome…
Dr Rad 7:20 I’m not gonna say anything yet. I’m not gonna say any
Dr G 7:22 Rome and their names we’ve got two Lucius Papirii, what could be going on. And we also have Publius Pinarius as the co-censor. So the job of the censor is count everything up, basically, check how the population is going, look at the distribution of the wealth and so forth. So I guess we’ll see what happens.
Dr Rad 7:47 We will, we will, I mean, their censorship has been an interesting controversy in this past decade. So it’s interesting that we have sensors named again. Now look, I’m not going to not gonna lie. Livy does not have a huge amount of detail for this year. If I’m not alone, I’m going to say yeah, I’m going to say I think this episode might be a low point for Livy as well, and you’ll see why later on. Not as it is not interesting, but just as in in terms of the depth of the information provided, but well, we’ll get to that. Of course, here we are in 430 BC, and what are the tribune of the plebs pushing for but military tributes with consular power? I think you can already know how that wound up given that you’ve given me the magistrates as consuls.
Dr G 8:37 Yeah. So they wanted this year to be filled with military treatments with consular power. Is that the idea?
Dr Rad 8:43 Yeah, they wanted military ship into the consular power but didn’t get there. It seems to be the way to be honest. They seem to lose more often than they win in this battle. So the previous year, as we mentioned, we had some conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians mentioned and the Romans did pretty well in that scenario. In this year the aqueous erstwhile enemies of room sent envoys to the Romans Senate requesting a treaty the Senate come back yes the Senate come back to the aqueous and say, You know what, why don’t you just flat out surrender and say that were awesome and where the man and nobody can be at room?
Dr G 9:23 Fascinating. Okay, so that’s, that’s not really a treaty. That’s just they’re asking Romans like, rather than a treaty, how about you completely submit to us?
Dr Rad 9:32 I think that the Romans are doing what I try and do, which is you ask for something that’s more than you want. And then you work your way down.
Dr G 9:41 I see. I see a great negotiating strategy from the victor of the battle.
Dr Rad 9:46 Yes, exactly. Anyway, it ends up happening that the Aequians secure an eight year truce with Rome.
Dr G 9:54 Okay, very specific. We’ll see how that goes. I know
Dr Rad 9:57 it is very specific, isn’t it? Eight years like why not just and even 10. Guys, just an x.
Dr G 10:03 I mean they use base 10. They, that’s odd. Okay.
Dr Rad 10:07 Yeah. Anyway, the Volscians of course, we’re also defeated in this recent military combat that was going on. But internally, they’re now facing division. And to be honest, this I love this because we often find that we end up talking about like, what’s happening in Rome after something big has happened. So it’s kind of nice to get a sneak peek into what apparently is happening for the Volscians. So there are those who want to secure peace with Rome, and those who want to, I think, pursue more war. So they’re kind of arguing amongst themselves, which means Rome is in a very peaceful state, right? There’s not a lot going on.
Dr G 10:49 Oh, yeah. Well, if the Volscii Aren’t organised, then they probably still mourning the loss of Messius. Well, I did say I kind of like if we can breed them like that maybe we can take the whole place and make it our own.
Dr Rad 11:01 Who knows. So the Romans turned to what they normally do in peaceful times, which is needless bureaucracy.
Dr G 11:09 I see the censorship I sense is coming.
Dr Rad 11:12 Yes, this is where it is coming in. So Livy mentioned that there was a new law introduced regarding the valuation of fines, which was very popular with the people. Now when it actually happened was that the tribune of the plebs were actually putting this law together, and they knew it would go down well with the people. Unfortunately, one of them got a little bit too chatty, loose lips sink, ships strategy. And so the consuls ended up putting forth a law before the tribunes and they get the credit.
Dr G 11:43 Oh, no. Okay, so distributors come up with a great law, only to have it stolen out from underneath them by the consuls. Fascinating.
Dr Rad 11:53 Yeah. Now, of course, I had no idea what they were talking about in terms of what this actually involved. I’ve got a little bit of detail on this, I think, okay, I can I can I can say this is where I think Cicero comes in.
Dr G 12:05 Yeah. Yeah. So Cicero’s sort of jumps in to the to breach the gap, as it were, of all of our the source material. And, you know, he’s spoiling on about a whole bunch of things like Cicero does. But he’s honing in on this moment of the censorship. And he gets the names, right, generally speaking, and he talks about this transfer of the imposition of fines. So and it’s something to do with lightening the final load for people and figuring out how to measure that so that they can distribute the fines appropriately, but also lower their sort of consequence. In effect, it seems like fines are getting out of control, and nobody’s very happy about it. And their choice seems to be to shift a number of cattle out of private ownership and into public ownership. Now, these are two details. And I do not know how they’re related. How does shifting some cows, from private to public ownership actually alleviate the situation with fines? And I think this is related to how they measure wealth. So how they count up somebody’s assets for the censorship test. If the cows are owned by the people, ‘the public’ as it were, rather than by a certain person individually, then that capital doesn’t count to your asset marker. So you’re looking after some cows, but you don’t technically own the cows.
Dr Rad 13:42 Interesting. Yeah. Well, when I was sort of doing a bit of digging into this, the previous law that was replaced by this law was apparently a local the Lex Aternia Tarpeia, which was introduced in 454 BCE, so not that long ago. And it apparently had set up the conversion rate for fine. So one ox was the equivalent of 10 sheep was the equivalent of 100 pounds of bronze or 100 asses – aw yeah. Give me that booty. Apparently, see, we’re not entirely sure what is happening with this new law. But we think that the conversion rate is what has been made more favourable. And probably because there might have been people who wish to pay in money, rather than in things like cattle, I guess. And so kind of might have ended the optional payment. This is just a theory. This is a set in stone. It might have ended the optional payment and it might mean that all fines had to be paid in money from this point onwards.
Dr G 14:51 Ah, this might tie in I’m not sure necessarily how, but Festus does suggest In a passage 220, from the Lindsay addition, if anybody’s keen for that, that it was about estimating cattle based on the hundreds within the herd for and then sheep were estimated based on the 10s in the herd. So they came up with a new counting method that allowed them to count less, essentially.
Dr Rad 15:22 Right. Okay, gotcha. That’s it. It might be there. Yeah, the conversion rate kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, clearly something is going on. It’s getting mathematical. I don’t care for it. Shall we move on to 429 BCE? Because that is all I have.
Dr G 15:38 You want to end this year on the high note of bovine counting and we’ll leave it at that.
Dr Rad 15:43 I think I’d like to I’d like to leave the cows behind. Let’s move on.
Dr G 15:51 Or as the case may be, all right, well, that wraps up what a year to be in Rome.
Dr Rad 16:21 Okay, 429 BCE. Tell me what you got Dr. G.
Dr G 16:24 Well, no surprise Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.
Dr Rad 16:30 I had a hunch. I had a hunch. I’ve learned from history.
Dr G 16:36 I think I have even less source material for 429 that I did for 430. Which is kind of a abysmal, because all I’ve got is the consul names. And a little snippet from Diodorus Siculus. Who as we know, tries his best, but is often a little bit confused. So I mean, I’ll take you through it. We have as our consuls, apparently Hostus Lucretius Tricipitinus, so I hate that name. Tri-cip-i-tinus, yeah. And Lucius Sergius Fidenas. And he’s consul for the second time previously consul in 437. And also previously and a little bit more recently, military tribute with consular power in 433. They’re the only magistrates I’ve got names for for this year.
Dr Rad 17:33 I don’t have any other magistrates either. So strap yourself in this is what Livy tells me happened in 429. Nothing? Nothing happened.
Dr G 17:45 What now?
Dr Rad 17:46 Yeah, no, not as in not as in he’s missing like Dionysius, as in, he actually is there. And he just says, Look, nothing happened. So let’s just move straight onto 428.
Dr G 17:56 Oh, incredible stuff. Livy. I mean, he loves to talk, I can’t believe we found nothing on this time period at all. Well, that means my source becomes very handy. Diodorus Siculus you back in the mix, buddy. So the thing with Diodorus Siculus. And it’s been going on for a while in his narrative is that there is a about a 10 year discrepancy or more between the things he tells us and when they happened, and how they might line up with when the Roman say that they happened in Rome. So the annalists may be a little bit out in their count, Diodorus might be a little bit out in his count. But the thing that he’s giving us that the Romans aren’t giving us yet is he’s lining things up according to the Athenian dating system, the eponymous Archon in Athens, and generally speaking historians feel pretty confident about those dates. So it’s a bit problematic for all of the Roman writers like Livy to be like, it’s 429 when Diodorus is like it’s 422. We got some missing years somewhere in there something has happened. But the thing that redeems the Roman analysts and where Diodorus then immediately lets himself down as he gets everybody’s names slightly wrong. So
Dr Rad 18:15 It doesn’t bode well.
Dr G 18:26 No, it’s not great. I feel like he’s probably maybe okay on numbers, but he’s not great on his source material. So there’s a lot going on. He says the consuls for this year are Opiter Lucretius, ‘Opiter’ being a name that we’ve never heard of as a praenomen, so nice try, but probably wrong. And then Lucius Sergius Fideniates which is very close. Yeah, very close. He’s just gotten the last one a little bit a little bit smooshed up.
Dr Rad 19:51 Yeah, but I’m not giving him a cigar.
Dr G 19:53 Yeah, but maybe you overheard at a dinner party. You know, I feel like that’s the Diodorus Siculus way where it’s like somebody’s saying the names to him when he’s writing them down. He looks at his notes later. And he’s like, What did I even put there? Yes. For the manuscripts.
Dr Rad 20:06 Yeah. Look, I agree. Certainly there have been modern academics that have suggested that actually, if we, we probably should shift events around a little bit. And there probably was stuff happening in this year. But just in the version of Livy that we have the way that Livy chose to record things, it seems like a very dull year, indeed.
Dr G 20:28 Nothing to report a living well, well, well,
Dr Rad 20:33 I think we’re gonna go for a record. That means we’re on tour 428 BCE. Oh, we’re speeding through thing I know, people will think we’ve had a stroke,
Dr G 20:43 Dear listeners, calm yourselves. It’s a whole new year again.
Dr Rad 21:10 Now, this is a bit of a confusing year, as far as magistrates are concerned.
Dr G 21:14 This is very confusing. Yeah. And we’ve got some, there’s a whole bunch of potential issues here. So for instance, one of the things that I was holding on to for a long time, and I think I flagged in many episodes prior to now is that Dionysius of Halicarnassus kicks back in about 428. But I think I was mistaken about that. Having read what is there in the source material, in preparation for this episode, I was like, wait a minute, that doesn’t sound like 428 to me at all. So some minor revisions might have to take place.
Dr Rad 21:56 That’s all right, wait, as long as we know that, we’re going to briefly catch a glimpse of him again one day, that’s all we need to know right now.
Dr G 22:03 He shall return – not in his full glory – but he’ll be back limping across the finish line in his fragments. So we have two sets of consuls. In this year, as far as I’m aware we’ve got which means we have to divide them up between the consul ordinarii, the ones who named the year and the consul suffectii the ones who sort of fill in, in the back catalogue. But I also have and this is where Broughton, bless his soul is always so helpful. Also knows that there is a special commission in this. Yeah. And there’s a bunch of people involved in the special commission. So we’ve got plenty of names, even if we’re not really quite sure. What is going on.
Dr Rad 22:47 I think I can help you with that maybe actually does provide me with some detail this year. So why don’t why don’t you tell me who the magistrates are and then I’ll try and fill in the blanks.
Dr G 22:55 All right, this this sounds good to me. It’s a deal. It’s a deal. So our first consul is Aulus Cornelius Cossus.
Dr Rad 23:05 Not the most handsome man in the world.
Dr G 23:10 You may remember him, dear listeners, for being awesome. In 437, where you may have first encountered him, he was merely a military tribune. But this year, he’s actually a consul.
Dr Rad 23:25 Nice.
Dr G 23:26 So you know, I mean, I don’t know what he’s been doing for the last 10 years, but I’m gonna assume he’s even more handsome than before.
Dr Rad 23:33 Absolutely handsome men don’t need to work hard for political office.
Dr G 23:37 I wouldn’t assume so especially when women have the vote. Oh, wait. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus. Another quite familiar name at this point is this is his second bite at the consular cherry previously consul in 431 and also most likely one of the sons with a very famous Cincinnatus.
Dr Rad 24:03 I weas gonna say he’s not THE Cincinnatus.
Dr G 24:06 No. Poenas Cincinnatus is one of the sons of the very famous twice dictator Cincinnatus for those tuning in from Cincinnati and possibly also the younger brother of Lucis Quinctius Cincinnatus who has exactly the same name as the great man himself, so very confusing. So those two are consuls. Then apparently we have another two sets of consuls and that would involve Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.
Dr Rad 24:39 Right.
Dr G 24:39 The brother
Dr Rad 24:41 Just to makes things even more confusing. Yeah.
Dr G 24:44 Two Cincinnatuses consul in the same year.
Dr Rad 24:47 Did that make them a Cincinnati?
Dr G 24:49 I think it does. I think I think we’ve reached the Cincinnati moment. It’s finally happened and also Aulus Sempronius Atratinus.
Dr Rad 25:01 We’ve heard that name before.
Dr G 25:04 Yeah, I mean, it sounds vaguely familiar to me. But I haven’t written any notes on that. So I have not done my due diligence with that guy.
Dr Rad 25:10 Now, I think I don’t think it’s necessarily the same person. But I do remember that name of Atratinus. And of course, Sempronius. I mean, the Sempronii are going to pop up again and again.
Dr G 25:23 They are going to have a long legacy as patrician family.
Dr Rad 25:26 Yeah.
Dr G 25:27 So that’s our two pairs of consuls. Then we head into our special commission, and I’m excited to learn about what this special commission might be all about. But it involves at least three people. Lucius Sergius Fidenas, who cropped up in the previous year as consul. Quintus Servilius Priscus Fidenas. So, two Fideni in there.
Dr Rad 25:54 Yeah.
Dr G 25:54 And Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus, who we also have previously seen was a military tribute with consular power in 438. And also seems to been appointed to investigate the participation of the Fidenates in the raids led by Veii
Dr Rad 26:19 Yeah, so that’s what I’m going to fill in a little bit for you. So let’s get to it. Okay, so we’ve got our consuls of Cossus, who, as you mentioned, was our ridiculously good looking tribune who managed to defeat an Etruscan King on the battlefield had the whole spolia opima thing going on for him which nobody, but Romulus had managed to do so what a consul. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus, as you said, now, what starts to happen under their consulship is that the people of Veii start to make moves on Roman territory. A common tale, we have talked about the fact that this time period as much as it seems to be filled with these awesome Hollywood blockbuster epic battles, really seems to be this constant kneeling of Rome and its neighbours and they’re constantly trying to get each other’s territory and steal each other’s stuff. I mean, honestly, it feels a bit like kindergarten sometimes, Dr. G. Now is also rumoured, as you just mentioned that some of the young men from Fidenae were in on these raids. Okay, we’re taking part. Lest we forget, the Romans aren’t feeling really great about Fidenae right now do you want to remind us why?
Dr G 27:40 There seems to be a bit of a problem. So in the history of Fidenae, it starts out as a Roman colony that seems to be it’s how it comes into being. So the Romans always consider it theirs. And it’s actually a really strategic anchor point to the slight north of Rome, because it sits on the same side of the Tiber as Rome. And this means that they’ve got a sort of like a defence in the north, that allows them to sort of feel more at ease about where their enemies might be coming at them from. Problem for Rome is that the Fidemae populace decides that they’re not having anything to do with Rome anymore, and they decide to throw in their lot with the Etruscans, which makes a lot of sense, the Etruscans are really quite close. They are a much more numerous people. And if you were looking at a side by side comparison of who you should ally with at in this time period, you’ve got Rome, a single city, a little outpost, run by a bunch of gangsters, versus the Etruscans, who have centuries of history in the region, and a full 12 member kingship going on, there is a lot of power and a lot of history there. They’re well embedded in their power structures. So it makes sense that a reasonable offer might have been made to Fidenae and they fluttered their eyelashes at they and said, well yes, of course we’d love to join you. And Veii and the Etruscans now have a strategic position to filter into Rome from a side that they are not usually able to approach the city from.
Dr Rad 29:26 Strategically important. Absolutely. So obviously, they have a bitter taste in the room, his mouth and I’m going to tolerate these rumours that are going on there like look, it’s one thing for today like we expect it from Veii, but Fidenae after everything we’ve just been through, I don’t know think so. So as you mentioned, a special commission is set up I feel like we need to have some some cry music Don’t Don’t do too. And so we got Lucius Sergius, Quintus Servilius and Mamercus Aemilius according to Livy who are putting in charge of looking into these rumours, and some men could not account for their whereabouts at the time in question. So I’m definitely putting the Law and Order vibes right now.
Dr G 30:12 You don’t have an alibi. Why? No, sir. I was sleeping in the field.
Dr Rad 30:17 Yeah, they were away from Fidenae. And they but where were they? Who could vouch for their whereabouts? Nobody. That’s who. So they are banished to Ostia.
Dr G 30:26 I mean, that’s pretty disappointing that they couldn’t even get a friend to lie for them.
Dr Rad 30:32 It would seem to be pretty easy back in this day and age but it’s not like they’re battling you know, CCTV and mobile phones cell tower was pinging all around. Nonetheless, the goats were quiet that day. And nobody could say where they were. They’re banished to Ostia. And I guess Rome is also starting to think about, hmm, what can we do with this whole Fidenae situation? Because clearly, they’re still not really on board with this whole idea of being allied with the most awesome city state in all of Italy. Not that it’s known as Italy right now, but hey. So they decided they’re going to send more settlers and establish what not establish a colony, but reinforce the colony at feed name. And so they take land from the property of people who had died. And they give it to the new colonists. So they’re sort of trying to, you know, set them up.
Dr G 31:27 Okay, so they shift some things around like, yeah, it’s an offworld opportunity.
Dr Rad 31:33 Some creative accounting.
Dr G 31:34 Yeah, it’s gonna be very exciting for you here, take this stuff. Yeah, I think the other thing that might be said for this year is this is the year that Cossus holds the consulship. So for some scholars, and it would make sense to go down this path, this is actually the year where the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius, is met in battle and is slain directly by Cossus.
Dr Rad 32:03 Okay, see, I have that a little bit later in some of the stuff I’ve written. So definitely the fact that he’s consulship. Now is Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 32:11 This is yeah, this is one of the candidates is going to pop up. This is going to crop up again.
Dr Rad 32:16 And of course, we’ve also got Mamercus Aemilius too. Yeah. also has those connotations. So yes, this is one of the candidates, but I definitely with my Livy narrative, because you know, Livy is my man. I’m going to plump for a bit later on. But anyway, so we’ve got to colony set up at Fidenae. And then of course, it’s been far too peaceful. And Disney-like for too long, Dr. G, a drought hits are really, really bad drought.
Dr G 32:16 I see. Okay, I think these things might crop up in a slightly different year for me. So we’ll, we’ll see, we’ll keep going.
Dr Rad 32:54 Okay.
Dr G 32:55 I’m interested.
Dr Rad 32:55 So Livy tells me that it’s not just the fact that it’s not raining very much, which is part of the problem, but also what he calls perennial streams, do not have enough water. So I think that probably means that obviously, where people would normally locate their water, it’s, you know, they don’t usually have any problems from the sources that are drained from from the ground. They’re also drying up.
Dr G 33:19 Yeah, yeah. So creeks and small rivers are also dry. Yes, it’s bad time.
Dr Rad 33:25 Yeah, exactly. Now, of course, when we don’t have enough water, what happens? People start to die. So basically, the cattle the first today, so they start dying, and you’d find them sort of strewn all around these dried up water sources where they would normally go to get a drink. And they’re also starting to die from mange, which is still a disease that can afflict various animals these days. But basically, it’s some sort of skin condition, which is caused by these parasitic microscopic mites. And what ends up happening is when you’ve got all this drought, people are suffering, cattle are suffering, cattle are dying, cattle are diseased, sure enough, our disease spreads from the cattle to the Roman people. So at first, you start to see people who are living in more rural areas and slaves starting to die, but then also it spreads into the city. And it’s obviously again, I mean, it feels like only yesterday we were talking about a bad sickness in Rome, but it seems like once again, the Romans are really suffering badly.
Dr G 34:28 Yeah, I think we would have to assume that if we’re in a situation of this kind of drought, we’re looking at years of consequence, not just a single year, like in order to be in a situation where usual water sources are actually dry. This is an ongoing drought that’s been happening for some time and it’s now getting quite severe.
Dr Rad 34:51 Absolutely. Now, the people because they are suffering so badly, they start getting desperate and what In terms foreign superstitions become very popular, and other people in room are starting to take advantage of the situation, presumably to, like make not money like cash, I would presume, but presumably to earn some sort of financial gain or to win influence with people. So some people are pretending to be seers. So sort of taking advantage of that superstitious state desperate state that people are in. And they start talking the room and people into adopting new types of beliefs and weird ways of sacrificing, and it’s happening in their homes, the leading citizens start to notice that it’s spreading everywhere. And that there are just like strange sacrifices happening all over the city, because the people just, they can’t help but think that they’ve done something to upset the gods, and that the only way that they’re going to make it right is if they figure out, you know, what’s the right offering? What’s the right sacrifice? How can I possibly, you know, restore the balance between our people and the gods. So it seems to be getting out of hand, I’m gonna unpack what this all means in a second. Eventually, the angels are put in charge of ensuring that everyone returns to normal, and I’m using my flesh rabbits religious practices, and that they return to only worshipping Roman gods in a Roman way, God dammit.
Dr G 36:25 I see. I mean, it makes a lot of sense that things like this would happen. And it is also quite interesting that the Roman response to this would, is not that sort of expansive, inclusive sort of approach that we see much later in Rome, where they, they really do just sort of absorb and embrace and adapt different modes of worship into their own way of doing things. There seems to be like a distinct moment of crisis, in terms of like ritual practice, brought about by environmental crisis.
Dr Rad 37:00 Yes, absolutely. And I think we can sympathise with that these days, even though it might not necessarily be an environmental crisis, although it might be. We see people in tough times these days, often, that’s the moment that they find some sort of faith because you know, when push comes to shove, and you’re desperate, you might look for answers in places you haven’t considered before. Now, that’s not to say that the Romans haven’t considered being religious for for all, but they just might be looking in into new gods. Now.
Dr G 37:28 Well, certainly if the rituals that they’ve been performing, haven’t done the trick, and the drought is getting worse, then it would be a reasonable thing to assume that maybe there’s something wrong with the ritual practice.
Dr Rad 37:40 Yes. So looking at how academics have interpreted what Livy is saying here, because he doesn’t give me any specifics about exactly what kind of practices and that sort of thing, it seems to be assumed that he’s referring to the cult of Apollo. So you might have forgotten, but in 431, they dedicated a temple to Apolo, when we’re suffering from that really terrible plague, it actually been vowed in for 33. But it wasn’t until first 431 that the temple was, you know, up and running. And so it might be something to do with that,
Dr G 38:19 Somebody built it wrong. You gotta gotta take that down.
Dr Rad 38:23 Well, it might just made it that was like, you know, the new cult on the block. Oh, yeah. So it might be that there is something like that going on. It’s possible. That’s what they’re referring to. And it won’t be the last time that we see this kind of outbreak of extreme. Well, what the room is sore is like more extreme or superstitious practices, like people getting a bit caught up in things, we’re gonna see this again, when we get to the years of like the Second Punic War and that sort of thing. Now that we’ve isolated Yeah, the final weird thing I’m going to note is that we of course, have the seemingly plebeian aediles. Now, it’s not explicit that this is who they are, but possibly, it’s the plebeian aediles who have been put in charge with restoring everything to rights, which might not seem to add up at first, if we think about the kinds of functions that the aediles serve later on in Rome’s history where they’re more concerned with, I suppose, more prosaic matters of life rather than religious beliefs. But for this earlier period, it does seem that there is potentially a connection for them where there is that sort of religious aspects obviously there I mean, all magistrates obviously, it’s not like in the modern day where you have a real separation between politics and religion. Obviously, all magistrates are going to be involved in religious practices somehow, whether it’s the rights they have to carry out or whatever, but But we’ve seen also that it seems like the Aidells were the ones put in charge of the publishing of the 12 Tables, they also possibly were overseeing senatorial records and making sure that they were kept at this point in time. And they therefore might have been seen as valid people to be overseeing how people are observing their religion, I suppose. And that, yeah, they have this sort of religious aspect to their role.
Dr G 40:32 Interesting, very interesting. So we’ve had this mention of aediles, we don’t know, we don’t have any names.
Dr Rad 40:41 We do not. We didn’t know. And then so this is all speculation, we don’t really know what’s going on here. We don’t have enough detail. And it’s not that they’re trying to wipe out the cult of Apollo. They’re just trying to make sure that it doesn’t get excessive. And there is a balance between what and who the Romans are worshipping.
Dr G 41:01 And there’s also the broader question of like, what’s going on with like, the demarcation of responsibility here. So we have had previous years before now where we’ve known who the Pontifex Maximus is, yes. And it doesn’t happen very often in this early period. But they have been mentioned. And we also get this sense, particularly from very early on, definitely pre Republic, that there are a whole bunch of really quite significant priesthoods that are already in existence, such as the fetiales, such as a whole bunch of sort of priests to Jupiter, priests to Mars, the pontificates as a college, augers. And so the idea that it is in this moment, that the responsibility is delegated to the aediles to try and sort out this issue does raise some questions
Dr Rad 42:08 It does. And as I say, it’s just a theory. But I think it’s, it does sort of highlight that. We honestly can’t say a lot for certain about a lot of people’s positions at this point in time. It’s not that they are they’re not obviously a pretty straight as you’re saying they’re not a pretty soon, as you say it’s more that something’s been delegated to them, and that they might have been seen as the kind of people that were able to oversee something like this,
Dr G 42:32 The idea that this could fall within their remit somehow,
Dr Rad 42:36 Potentially, but again, like I think it just sort of even even if this is just a theory, it’s just once again, a reminder that we really know so little about exactly what being a consul this period, you know,
Dr G 42:47 well, yes. And I think, I mean, it’s worth noting that often, this has been simplified as well, like when we talk about consuls in this period, we’re not even sure that they’re called ‘consul’.
Dr Rad 42:57 Exactly. That’s the question marks and it’s just sort of highlights that if you look up what an aedile does, this would probably not be something that I think they would normally associated with when you get later in Rome’s history.
Dr G 43:10 Yeah, and we’re in this period where things nothing is solid. Uncertainty is high. Yes. I think unless you have other details this might be the place to wrap up this episode.
Dr Rad 43:24 That is all I have. But I will say that some of the details that I’ve just given you are going to come back in the most major way you have no idea or maybe you do I don’t know if Dionysius is kicked back in or not but the next episode some of these little seeds that are planted they’re going to flower into something horrible.
Dr G 43:42 Oh, I can’t wait to find out well and well if you share your story with me I’ll let you know what I discovered.
Dr Rad 43:50 All right, Dr. G, that means it is once again time for the Partial Pick
all right, Dr. G, so this is the point where we sum up Well normally the year that was but in this case it’s the three years that we’re and we rate room out of five different categories and in each of those categories, they have the potential to score 10 Golden Eagles Something tells me it’s going to be rough today.
Dr G 44:23 Yeah, like in a year where nothing happened well all right, so let’s see how they do the first category is military clout
Dr Rad 44:34 Nope that to stick really
Dr G 44:39 I couldn’t fight I had the mange
Dr Rad 44:43 Yep, so that’s that’s this year. So what’s our next category diplomacy. Okay, well, there’s a little bit of that going on here. We’ve got the truce with the aqueous that’s true
Dr G 44:53 and they did negotiate some people out of feed and a get you there get you to Ostia will bring it A pack of robots to replace you. I mean, they could be seen as diplomatic. For the
Dr Rad 45:05 Romans. I think that is diplomatic. They didn’t just outright kill them. Not Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So what, like four or five? I mean, it’s not that impressive.
Dr G 45:16 Well, I feel like yeah, the diplomacy with feed and a doesn’t count for much. I don’t think that’s maybe a one. But actually coming to it. You truce with the aliens and the volsky. I that actually does sound pretty. Oh, okay. The moleskin is under the bus like that. I retract I retract the A quien treaty. Yeah, true. So I should say so the treaty a truce for eight years? Yeah. Yeah, look, I’m gonna give them about a five.
Dr Rad 45:48 Okay, so we’ll give them a five. Alright, so we’ve got five what’s our next category?
Dr G 45:51 Expansion? No.
Dr Rad 45:54 Fear while I feel
Dr G 45:56 it’s hard to expand under these conditions, they’re being pressed from all sides.
Dr Rad 46:00 They are and from and internally the cows.
Dr G 46:07 Sorry, I was like being pressed internally, I went somewhere else. We’re tourists
Dr Rad 46:14 can’t say that I do.
Dr G 46:17 That a lot of winters going on. No specific examples come to mind. They’re just they’re doing things but uh, and citizen score.
Dr Rad 46:27 Look, for the first few years that we talked about the fact that there’s a lot of peace that nothing is happening.
Dr G 46:33 There’s fines being alleviated? I mean, it all sounds pretty good. Really.
Dr Rad 46:37 That’s pretty good. It’s just unfortunately, we’ve bundled it together with this hideous route, which makes everyone really suffer and makes them ill. Yeah. So it’s gonna be balanced out. I think maybe maybe like a four
Dr G 46:53 points for reduced fines, taking your way points for the mange
Dr Rad 46:58 given that we’re not really entirely sure exactly. What that whole fine business involved. It’s all very speculative. I’m
Dr G 47:06 assuming it benefits the rich more than it benefits the blue bands. But I could be wrong about that. We have
Dr Rad 47:13 talked a lot with the people. So I’m presuming it was actually to their benefit and don’t don’t
Dr G 47:19 look for something into things that haven’t been good for them before.
Dr Rad 47:23 This is true. But the fact that Libby says the tributes of the collapse were the ones that are originally coming up with it. And then the console stole their idea. And
Dr G 47:32 maybe, well, maybe a four then as you say,
Dr Rad 47:37 Okay, well that actually you know what, it’s better than I thought although not great when you consider it three years rolled into one cart with a total of nine golden eagles. Dr. G.
Dr G 47:48 Wow, Rome, you’ve really excelled?
Dr Rad 47:53 Yeah, yeah. Definitely have Hey, you know what, there? It’s definitely better than some of the other years we’ve dealt with in the 40s. I thought that the December it was a bad period, but actually the full 30s have been rough.
Dr G 48:07 They have I mean, between like the absence of source material and just like hit after hit to the Roman psyche. It’s been a tough time.
Dr Rad 48:17 Well, that’s a G, there’s no one I would rather talk about nothing. We’re
Dr G 48:23 gonna take that as a compliment.
Dr Rad 48:25 Absolutely. Join us next time for the podcast about nothing. Oh,
Dr G 48:30 from the foundation to nothing.
Dr Rad 48:44 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and automated transcripts in our show notes. You too can support our show and help us to produce more intriguing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we’d like to give a special shout out to some of our newest Patreon, Daniel, Nicole, Vincent and Michael. There are other ways that you can support our show. We have merchandise a collaboration with Bridget Clark on Gumroad. And we now also have a book and you can find all the details of that on the highlands press website as well as our website if you’d like to purchase a copy of Rex, the seven kings of Rome, our popular history. However, if you are travel short of denari, we would massively appreciate it. If you told someone about the show. That kind of recommendation is worth its weight in gold. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Hey, Dr. Chi, would you know what to do if a fella started floating in the fire before you?
Dr G 50:29 Probably not?
Dr Rad 50:32 Well, then have I got the book for you? Did you know that we wrote a book?
Dr G 50:37 What we wrote a book? No way.
Dr Rad 50:39 I think we wrote a book. Yeah, absolutely. We read a book and it’s called Rex, that seven kings of Rome.
Dr G 50:47 Oh, that’s right. The details are starting to come back to me now. Yes, yes, the Regal period. What a time for the Romans to be alive. And also what a time for historians to revisit and to consider the source material.
Dr Rad 51:00 Absolutely. So if you’re interested in picking up a copy of our popular history of the Roman monarchy, please head over to the highlands press website.
Dr Rad 51:15 It’d be a great way to show your support of the show and to get a great read
Dr Rad 51:15 It’d be a great way to show your support of the show and to get a great read
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Postumius Tubertus, Dictator
Jan 19, 2023
It’s around 431 BCE and Rome is busy contending with her neighbours in pretty much every direction. Turns out that it’s not easy trying to establish yourself as an independent state! It might just be time for a dictator. Enter: Aulus Postumius Tubertus.
Episode 133 – Postumius Tubertus, Dictator
Rome is taking the need to put troops on the field seriously with a levy of the citizens held under the conditions of the lex sacrata, which is considered to be the most strict conditions requiring compliance in line with the gods. Who are they scared of? Only the most enduring thorns in their sides, their southern neighbours the Volsicians and the Aequians! It isn’t long before Rome is convinced that they need a dictator to sort out this mess.
Getting to the point of having a dictator in place though is quite another story. In this episode we explore some intriguing details relating to the consuls, the tribunes of the plebs, and the interference of a certain patrician. Beyond them is the actual battle itself, which takes on grand overtones with comparisons made to Homer’s Iliad. This year is also tinged with a sense of tragedy with a story involving the dictator Aulus Postumius Tubertus and his son.
Hold on to your hats, dear listener, this is going to be epic!
Things to tune in for:
Familiar locations like Mount Algidus
Some beef between the consuls!
Intense levies
Battle plans!
The heroism of Vettius Messius
Our Book on the Roman Kings
We’ve gone back to where it all began (or so the Romans would say…)
We delve into the history, myth, and complexities of the ancient Roman kings. You can support our work and get a very cool ancient Roman history book in return by pre-ordering a copy of Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome from the Highlands Press. Due for release in late January 2023.
Highlands Press is an independent publisher supporting historians and we’re excited to be pairing up with an indie producer for our debut book together.
What did early Roman soldiers wear on the field? It’s a good question, while we might assume leather was important protective gear, some elites likely had more sophisticated armour. Above is a bronze helmet of the Montefortino type. Considered to be the oldest type of metal Roman helmet. This example dates from the third century BCE and is now in the British Museum.
Our Players
Consuls
Titus Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat)
Gaius/Gnaeus Iulius – f. – n. Mento (Pat)
Dictator
Aulus Postumius – f. – n. Tubertus (Pat)
Master of the Horse
Lucius Iulius (Vopisci f. C. ?n) Iullus (Pat)
Military Legates
Marcus Fabius (Vibulanus) (Pat)
Marcus? Geganius (Macerinus) (Pat)
Spurius Postumius Albus (Regillensis) (Pat)
Quintus Sulpicius (Camerinus Praetextatus) (Pat)
Other Patricians
Quintus Servilius Priscus
Pontifex Maximus
Aulus Cornelius Cossus
Volscians
Vettius Messius
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.26-29.
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.64-65.1; Ovid Fasti 6.723f; Valerius Maximus 2.7.6; Plutarch Cam. 2; Gellius 17.21.17
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Sounds effects in this episode are sourced from BBC, Pixabay, and Pond5. Thanks to the highly talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Roman soldiers and their general by vukkostic. This painting imagines a Roman army much more organised and sophisticated than that of the early Republic. Nevertheless, it evokes the spirit of Roman warfare which is very much at play in this episode.
Automated Transcript
We’ve tried to edit this one to help with all the Roman names!
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians.
Dr G 0:20 We explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:58 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G. And sitting with me, across the vast distance of cyberspace
Dr Rad 1:13 Is Doctor Rad. Hello, everyone. Hello,
Dr G 1:17 hello. We’re in for a thrilling time, I think in this episode. So we’re going to be looking at 431 BCE. And you might think to yourself, that doesn’t sound very exciting, just another number. But just us join
Dr Rad 1:33 us for this episode as we continue to trace the history of Rome from the founding of the city at the moment, predominantly with Livy by our side.
Dr G 1:44 Yeah, look, Dionysus of Halicarnassus, which is the main source that I’ve been reading for a long while now has dropped off the wagon, and will remain missing for a few more years before finally disappearing altogether.
Dr Rad 2:00 All right, well, before we get into force, anyone and all the excitement that awaits us strategy, should we do a brief recap to see what was happening in Roman history in our previous episode?
Dr G 2:08 Hmm. So in our previous episode, we covered two years, and it was 433 and 432. And realistically, it was mostly about a pestilence and the getting over of said pestilence.
Dr Rad 2:25 I think we can all relate to.
Dr G 2:27 Yes, yes. touches their heartstrings. That does, indeed, and Rome gets through it, but it seems that there might be rising tensions from their neighbors, people who are seeing Rome’s malaise as an opportunity potentially
Dr Rad 2:44 Indeed, you’ve got the fall scans in the aqueous rearing their ugly heads, and they seem to be potentially allying with the Etruscans. More specifically, perhaps the people from they because Rome has had some beef with a in the past decade over territory.
Dr G 3:05 Yeah, and Veii is super close to Rome, just a little bit to the north. And so it’s perhaps unsurprising that these two are often at loggerheads with each other. Yes, absolutely.
Dr Rad 3:14 So we’ve got that lingering in the background. We’ve got Livy valiantly trying to continue to forge a conflict within Rome itself between the patricians and plebeians In our previous episode. So let’s see how it all plays out shall we in 431 BCE?
Dr G 4:51 431 BCE What a time to be alive in ancient Rome. We have consuls this year
Dr Rad 4:59 we do in case you have forgotten, it was thought that with potential trouble with external places on the horizon, only consuls would do, because God forbid you have military turbulence with constant power and one of them’s a plebeian and I mean, it’s clearly going to result in a defeat.
Dr G 5:20 We can’t take that risk. And Rome doesn’t they put in Titus Quinctius, son of Lucius, grandson of Lucius, Poenus Cincinnatus, who is a patrician and yes, is related to the famous since I was
Dr Rad 5:36 gonna say it’s a famous name. It’s a famous name.
Dr G 5:40 So famous family and this appears to be one of his son.
Dr Rad 5:43 Okay, excellent. And then we’ve got another famous name I believe is our other consul.
Dr G 5:48 We do we have a Gaius or a Gnaeus, debate rages Julius Mento
Dr Rad 5:55 I’m sorry, did you just offer me a breath mint?
Dr G 5:59 I did. It’s delicious.
Dr Rad 6:01 What a weird cognomen.
Dr G 6:04 Yes, and I’d love to tell you more about it. But I’m out of my rabbit hole of cognomen. Nah, I’m good. I don’t have anything to tell you on that.
Dr Rad 6:13 I can actually tell you what it means strategy. Oh, good. It means “long chin”.
Dr G 6:20 Oh, goodness. Well, well. What happens when a Mento and a Flaccinator end up in the same room?
Dr Rad 6:29 I feel like it is something something very peppermint tea that would happen. Not just to get long chin’s always remind me of peppermint. That’s fantastic. Yes. strong flavors. Definitely.
Dr G 6:40 The fresh maker.
Dr Rad 6:41 Yes.
Dr G 6:43 All right. So I mean, we’ve focused on Mento. But it’s really the Gaius Julius element of the name that perhaps would ring bells for everybody. And it’s not our guy were way too early for him. Yes.
Dr Rad 6:57 And it just in terms of the debate raging around his freedom. And so apparently, Gnaeus is not a name commonly used by the Julians, as again. So that’s why I think there is some debate about that first name, whereas Gaius we know is definitely used by them.
Dr G 7:17 Definitely, definitely. But as a foreshadowing of the year ahead, I’ve got some other people holding power that are perhaps worthy of note, we do get a dictator in this, as far as I’m aware that
Dr Rad 7:33 the 430s is a time for dictators. They are literally flooding us with dictators at the moment.
Dr G 7:40 It’s a stunning time to be a dictator. And we have Aulus Postumius Tubertus.
Dr Rad 7:47 Mmmm a familiar name again, the Postumii,
Dr G 7:52 indeed, I don’t know if we’ve seen this specific guy before, but we’ve definitely seen the family
Dr Rad 7:57 just the family. Yeah.
Dr G 7:58 And if you have a dictator, you can always bet your sunshine, that you’re also going to have a Master of the Horse. And this is Lucius Iulius Vopisci, or Vopisci, Iullus.
Dr Rad 8:15 Oh, okay.
Dr G 8:16 Another patrician.
Dr Rad 8:17 Is he related? Do you think to one of our consuls?
Dr G 8:22 Ahhh I don’t. I don’t know. I mean, they they come from the same gens. So I mean, they must be extended relations of some Yes. But all of the other names don’t really match up. So that suggests they come from different family lines. But this guy we have seen before he was apparently a military tribune with consular power in 438. Okay. Okay. So I don’t remember him. But we’re getting into that period where all Roman names start to sound the same.
Dr Rad 8:50 So we’re only now getting to that period? We’re getting to that period?
Dr G 8:55 Just now just recently.
Dr Rad 8:56 Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
Dr G 8:58 We have some legates as well. So I think this is an indication usually we don’t find out who the legates are. They are a military or some sort of military commander. So we don’t tend to hear about them. They’re usually around. But something has to sort of be quite narratively significant for the legates to get mentioned by name. And we have a few of them mentioned by name this year. So that gives us a bit of a heads up that there’s something on the horizon. So we have Marcus Fabius Vibulanus, you may have heard of him before military tribute with consular power in 433.
Dr Rad 9:36 Ahh Fabulous Fabian
Dr G 9:37 Yes. Marcus, we think, Marcus Geganius Macerinus.
Dr Rad 9:44 I’ve definitely heard of him before.
Dr G 9:46 He was consul in 447, 443 and 437.
Dr Rad 9:51 Yes, I remember.
Dr G 9:52 Well, lots of lots of consulships under his belt. So this guy comes with a huge sort of pedigree so I like it. You is not as high up in the in the chain of greatness as being a consul but this guy would be highly respected as a military commander under a consul. And then we have Spurius Postumius Albus Regillensis.
Dr Rad 10:14 I’ve definitely heard that name before.
Dr G 10:16 sounds super familiar because just a couple of years ago, he was also a military tribute with consular power. So we’ve got a whole bunch of legates who have previously held command, essentially. So they’re bringing in the big guns. And that’s not all. I’m turning the page. We have Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Praetextatus. Who was a consul or military tribute with consular power in 434.
Dr Rad 10:51 So he was from the year of chaos as it shall henceforth be called.
Dr G 10:55 Yeah, where we don’t know who was who holding what, which position necessarily. It was so bad.
Dr Rad 11:00 Exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, I think this is our cast our cast of 1000s.
Dr G 11:06 Yeah, and I hope listeners that you’ve been paying careful attention because all of those names uniquely matter.
Dr Rad 11:12 Exactly then at all interchangeable. All right, so let me tell you what these guys are getting up to and why there are so many names mentioned specifically in the year 431. So as we know, war is looming. I guess that means I have to go back to my British accent from pre war was on the horizon. zactly it’s not looking good chaps, quickly, we got to hell, the levy god dammit.
Dr G 11:38 Roll up, roll up, join the greatest army on earth,
Dr Rad 11:42 Your country needs you. Yes, that’s exactly what happened. So a levy is held by the consuls, and it’s held under a lex sacrata, because it’s generally held to be the most effective way of gathering soldiers. Why do you ask? Well, I’ll tell you, because whoever did not obey the call, to enlist, was considered sacer to the gods or forfeit to the gods. So, yeah, this, this ties into the idea that fighting was kind of a religious duty of a Roman citizen, particularly I suppose, at this point in time when Rome does not have a standing army.
Dr G 12:25 Yeah, service to the gods. Well, it makes sense in many respects, and we we’ve got a lot of priesthoods that are connected with either being able to read the signs to indicate whether it’s an appropriate time to go to war, you’ve also got the fetiales who go out to ensure that the wars just in the eyes of the gods, there is a lot of sense in which Rome doesn’t engage in any military action unless they really certain that things are looking appropriate through a divine perspective. So you certainly don’t want men in your ranks who are not approved from divine sanction.
Dr Rad 13:02 Indeed, exactly. So what’s going to happen is that the aid grants and the moleskin say, certainly postponed for a war for a year, but they’re very punctual. And that year rolls around because they are getting ready. They have put forward very strong armies from both of their locales, they have met up at Mount Algidum, or Algidus, which we have mentioned several times as a point of conflict, it’s just seems to be the place where battles happened. But they have set up separate camps. So they’re not in they’re close to each other. But they’re not entirely in the one camp that will become important later on, which is why I’m specifically mentioning it now. And then they start to drill them in hard. So it’s Train, train, train. The Romans presumably can see this and appreciate it because it makes them more concerned about the situation according to Liddy, so concerned that it’s time for dictator.
Dr G 14:02 Oh, wow. That just happened also quickly, they’re like, I saw them training over there. And I’m now really quite concerned and a console is not going to be enough for this situation.
Dr Rad 14:13 I really feel like if I were to characterize room in the 430s, at least as it’s coming through in the sauces, it’s that once they pop that cherry with one dictator, they can’t help but keep going forward again. And again. It’s just like, you know, it’s kind of a bad habit. Really, it’s a reflex.
Dr G 14:32 Well, this is interesting, actually, because I’ve just started reading Wilson’s book on the evolution of the dictator. And part of the argument that he is setting up is to assert that the dictator has always been a feature of the Roman Republic. And is indeed, you know, it comes into being with the Republic itself very early on in the piece. And so, in a way in this early period is part of the way that Romans do business. If They see a situation where they’re like, no, no, we need one person in charge for this, even if it’s just for a limited time, they have that position in reserve, knowing that they could use it at any time. So that it’s this kind of part of the way that they may be their business as usual practice in this early period of the Republic, because we’re certainly entering in this phase where we’re seeing a lot of them. And we’re going to continue to see a lot of them for quite some time.
Dr Rad 15:29 Oh, yeah. And look I suppose it’s a bit like if you’re in a plane, and the plane starts to get into trouble, you’re not going to be like, wait, wait, let’s see how this plays out. You’re going to pull the parachute Goddamnit, get the hell out of there. So I understand the instinct. But it does seem like in the 430s, they’re particularly prone to calling on a dictator. I guess, it ties into this bigger picture that we’ve often talked about that Rome is not in its best way at this point in time. It’s not it’s not his best self, in this time and the Republic?
Dr G 16:01 No, and it’s really I think, part of what we’re learning through this process of the 430s. And even the previous decade, and potentially, the decades to come, I haven’t read that far ahead, I’m trying to keep it fresh for myself, is that Rome is really trying to establish itself. And it’s a consolidation period. And this means conflicts because they need to figure out where they sit in the pecking order of Central Italy. And it’s just going around in circles.
Dr Rad 16:30 I think that’s definitely what we can see. Now, interestingly, in the future, of course, it’d be the Senate that always gets the power to decide when is room officially in a state of emergency at this point in time, although the Senate are the people that are like, you know, what, I think we need a dictator, they’re training awfully hard. It’s not like they’re official right at this point in time as it would kind of become their their business, if you like, in a few centuries time. Now, it might seem a little bit odd that the Romans are so nervous at this point in time, because of course, they have trounced the Aequians and the Volscians countless times in the past. I mean, I actually honestly could not tell you how many times we have related a story where the Aequians and the Volsicans have been defeated by Rome.
Dr G 17:21 And look at some of them have been at Mount Algidum as well now to guide us, which is this spot in the Alban hills to the south east of Rome, which is traditionally linked to Aequian territory. So it’s, it’s not like this hasn’t, it feels like we’re a bit on a repeat. We’re like a DJ doing. And it’s like, here we are, again, guys. It’s ah Mount Algidus. And who knows what’s gonna happen here, but probably Rome.
Dr Rad 17:49 Exactly. Well, the reason why they’re a little bit more nervous than usual, perhaps in spite of their amazing track record, is that not only do those Aequians and Volscians seems to be training very hard. I don’t know what that means. But they they’re doing the whole
Dr G 18:05 I hope this means that they have their shirts off.
I think it does. I think they’re doing the pumping iron montage, you know, it’s all looking pretty scary
Too to doo. Too to doo.
Dr Rad 18:15 Exactly. And “Eye of the Tiger” is playing, you know, they’re running up and down stairs, it’s not good. Anyway, on top of that, though, of course, we have to remember what Rome has just emerged from which is a pretty serious plague. A lot of young Roman men have died during his time. So I guess we’re in feels like it’s not at full strength.
Dr G 18:34 And the ones that are left with them, they got like little chicken legs that like I haven’t been able to get back to leg day. I don’t know what to tell you not feeling confident going into this.
Dr Rad 18:42 These thighs are not intimidating enough. But this is my favorite detail. And I am so excited to share this with you. The little cherry on top of why the Romans are a bit more nervous than usual. Why they call on a dictator is that the consuls do not get on at all.
Dr G 19:04 Oh, they voted these two guys in and they’re like these guys are like nup can’t stand him
Dr Rad 19:09 Yeah,
Dr G 19:09 The man’s a jerk
Dr Rad 19:10 They’re like the odd couple, but without the sweet, sentimental moments where actually they do care about each other.
Dr G 19:17 Okay, so they don’t get along and it seems like they’re gonna be unable to come to any unified decision if it comes to war.
Dr Rad 19:23 Exactly now this is another little intriguing detail that let me throw this out there. He reports that some writers have recorded that the consuls actually went to war and fought a battle at Mount Algidus and were defeated, hence the dictator being appointed. But that’s all he’ll give me. So I’m using my flesh rabbits. Some writers who the who?
Dr G 19:47 It sounds pretty awkward for the consuls, though. Like they tried to get their shit together even though they didn’t like each other and it really didn’t work out. Now everyone’s like, you know what? Just go well,
Dr Rad 19:59 there is one thing that they agree upon one thing and that is no dictator, no dictator, dictator, when it cancels, we want to be in charge.
Dr G 20:12 This is going to be a real slap in the face. I think for Cincinnatus son of the legendary Cincinnatus, twice dictator.
Dr Rad 20:19 Exactly, exactly. And so we’re like, yeah, they’re resisting the constants are like no no no dictator. We don’t want a dictator no stop talking to a Senate. We don’t want to hear it right now. But the information about the Aequians and the Volscians and their forces is just getting more and more concerning. Rome is getting increasingly worried the council’s are still not listening to the advice of the Senate.
Dr G 20:43 The reporters on the ground at Mount Algidus are drawing sketches of how well muscled the enemy is and sending those sketches back to Rome and people are getting increasingly concerned being like, those guys are developing muscle at a rate I’ve never seen before. They’re getting bigger day by day, we have to do something before they explode.
Dr Rad 21:01 Exactly, if we don’t go to battle, they’re training will mean that they are so much better than they need to be. They’re gonna be unstoppable. Exactly. So at this point in time, one Quintus Servilius Priscus, who was a very respected elite Roman man for the previous positions that he had held within the state appeals to none other than the tribune of the plebs. Yeah, that’s right, a patrician turning to the tribune of the plebs, desperate times in deed. He says, You guys are annoying. Can you please be annoying right now and use your authority to force the consuls to name a dictator?
Dr G 21:46 Wow.
Dr Rad 21:47 Yeah.
Dr G 21:48 That’s fascinating.
Dr Rad 21:49 I know. Now the tribunes of course say, hey, people need us we’re wanted. They like me. They like me. And they see this as a golden opportunity to increase their own power, because the tribute is the worst. So they start chatting amongst themselves being like, conspire, conspire, because how are we going to use this to our advantage? They then declare that the tribunes all think that the consoles should obey the Senate, and that if they keep resisting, they should be thrown in prison. Oh, that’ll teach them. Yeah, absolutely. The consuls, understandably, are outraged that the tributes have been used against them. They’re like that is no bigger slap in the face. Than you guys turning to our arch nemesis, the tribune of the plebs.
Dr G 22:46 Like this is insulting. And I also do not want to go to jail.
Dr Rad 22:50 Well, perhaps they have a point in the sense that they’re like, if you actually allow this to happen, like allow the consuls to be thrown in prison for not doing what they’re told by other people like the tribune of the plebs, then you are just undermining the authority of the office. Now. I do hate the patricians, but they do have a point about a dangerous precedent, because we know that the Romans are all about precedent.
Dr G 23:19 Yes, this is really interesting, actually, because this is going to feed into the one story that I have for this year, which doesn’t come until much later.
Dr Rad 23:27 Okay. Anyway, so it’s finally decided by a lot. I mean, after that objection is noted. They’re like, great, whatever. They decide by a lot that Titus Quintus as in Cincinnatus. 3.0, is going to be the one who’s going to be allowed to pick the dictator. And so he turns to Aulus Postumius Tubertus, who was his father-in-law, who was very well respected and very strict, apparently
Dr G 23:55 has a bit of a reputation.
Dr Rad 23:57 And he of course, then chooses Lucius Iulius as his Master of the Horse, as you said earlier.
Dr G 23:57 Hmm.
Dr Rad 24:05 Now, I’m just going to flag here. There have been questions raised about the legitimacy and timing of this dictatorship. did happen in this year? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it was a year earlier. Maybe it was invented.
Dr G 24:19 This is a chaotic time for the chronology. There is no doubt about that. So it wouldn’t surprise me that everything that we’re sort of talking about that we’re assigning to particularly years could be anywhere between a particular decade to be honest.
Dr Rad 24:33 I think this stuff happened. But yes, I can see that the timing might be the issue.
Dr G 24:39 I think this story about Tubertus certainly has some legs and there is some lingering sort of aftermath of this, of this whole situation. So even if it’s not in this year, I’m just going to foreshadow that. It seems like people across the board believe that it happened.
Dr Rad 25:00 I agree, I agree Anywho. So a levy is declared. And this is a serious levy. This is not just like your regular levy. This is one where all legal business is stopped in the city because everyone should be doing their bit to get ready for war. In fact, it’s so serious that men who might normally be able to claim some sort of exemption from military service, for whatever reason, are told we don’t have time to deal with your cases, buddy. You’re just gonna have to put your name down and turn up on the day. If you don’t, you’re going to be treated like a deserter.
Dr G 25:40 What about my tennis elbow?
Dr Rad 25:42 Too bad!
Dr G 25:43 I can’t possibly swing a sword.
Dr Rad 25:45 Too much time on the courts, pal. Get your arse in line. Yes. So basically, because this is like a state of emergency. No cases of exception are going to be considered not even like after everything’s said and done. It’s not like you can turn up with your little medical note and be like, I know I didn’t turn up but my doctor did say that I can’t have balls fly at my face. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Now they also they also enroll people from the her nations and the Latins. Their ally
Dr G 26:17 Classic allies
Dr Rad 26:18 Classic allies exactly. Now they then kind of divide and conquer. So Gnaeus Julius, the consul, and Lucius Iulius, the Master of the Horse are both assigned to Rome. So that makes sense, but the constants up if they don’t get along. Now, this is supposed to ensure that if there are any sudden issues that arise, they’ll be able to be handled by these two guys who are being left in charge. And their main priority is obviously to make sure that the needs of the army are being met, and that the city are supporting that goal. So far, so good, all makes sense. Now, at this point in time, our dictator promises that there will be games glorious games, if Rome wins, and he is basically repeating a promise apparently made by the Pontifex Maximus at the time, one Aulus Cornelius Cossus perhaps? Yeah, he said there would be great games if everyone was victorious. So we’re all on board with the whole let’s, let’s celebrate if we win. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Now, the dictator Postumius, he splits his army up with a consul that he’s been paired with, who is – I don’t really know what to call him – I don’t want to call him Cincinnatus. I guess Quintus. I’ll call him Quintus
Dr G 27:37 You could call him Poenus, because that’s one of his names and it doesn’t come up. It hasn’t come up very much so far.
Dr Rad 27:44 No, it’s actually an odd name “sideways”. It has something to do with some connection with Carthage or being a Carthaginian or something like that.
Dr G 27:52 Yeah. So I mean, maybe call in Poenus Cincinnatus.
Dr Rad 27:56 Okay. Poenus Cincinnatus, so they’ve divided up the army, and they’re going out to deal with the Aequians and the Volsicians. Now, the Romans had noticed the way that the Aequians and Volsicians were kept separately, but close together, so they do the same thing. So you’ve got Postumius with his own camp, and Quinctius Poenus with his own camp. Now the locations that levy gives me apparently do not make sense. I haven’t set this up. Personally, I am using Ogilvie an academic who apparently knows a bit more than I do about geography. So Livy says that the stimulus was closer to Tusculum. And that Quinctius Poenus was nearer to Lanuvium. However, apparently, Lanuvium is separated by the Alban Hills from Tusculum. And therefore not really near the site of battle. So don’t really know what that means. Yeah, that’s fine. It’s all relative. Who knows what this means?
Dr G 28:53 I think this requires us to take a trip to Rome in order to investigate the geography for ourselves.
Dr Rad 28:59 Absolutely, Patrons, get on it. We need to sort out this geography. Once the Roman camps are set up. Small scale skirmishes begin between the Romans and the Aeuqian and Volscian forces and Postumius is like, Yeah, and you know what, why not? Why not skirmish away. Go ahead, indulge yourself, knock yourself out. You know what, maybe this is the way that we’re going to just win the war. So he’s just like, Yep, this is how we’re going to do it. Just like low level, low pressure engagements at slow and steady. Yeah. And it does seem to have that kind of effects because eventually the Aequians and the Volscians become increasingly desperate, so much so that they decide to hatch an evil plan. They’re going to ambush the consul’s camp in the nighttime.
Da-da-daaaa!
Exactly. Unfortunately for them, the alarm is raised before they do that much damage.
Dr G 29:59 If it’s like a classic comedic situation being like, you know what we’ll do, we’ll do this. Oh no, the alarm system!
Dr Rad 30:06 Exactly like they’ve, you know, they’ve made some headway but not much. So Quinctius Poenus he springs into action. He immediately is like, Well, more guards, more security quickly, schnell schnell. And so everybody springs into action. And of course, our dictator Postumius immediately sends over reinforcements to help out his colleague in arms, and they are put under the command of a lieutenant Spurius Postumius Albus, our old friend.
Dr G 30:38 Oh.
Dr Rad 30:39 So Postumius and part of his army, they now move themselves to a location where they can’t be seen during the battle that is going on. So this way, I think they’re setting themselves up obviously for like an ambush of the enemy at an opportune moment. Sneaky.
Dr G 30:58 Where did those guys go? I don’t know. That has gone.
Dr Rad 31:01 Yeah, exactly. Now, of course, since he’s no longer present in the camp that he had set up, he has to leave behind a lieutenant in charge, and this is Quintus Sulpicius. So that’s one of our other lieutenants. Now he’s out another lieutenant, we’re taking them off becomes another one, because another one Marcus Fabius, our fabulous Fabian, another lieutenant, he is placed in charge of the cavalry. But no, he is ordered to wait until daybreak to do anything, because it’s way too hard to use your cavalry in the nighttime.
Dr G 31:39 Yeah, do not charge the horses in the dark. Yeah, it will go wrong.
Dr Rad 31:43 So Postumius is obviously justifying the choice of himself as dictator, because he’s just doing everything right. He then decides he’s going to actually attack the enemy camp, because of course, they have depleted the forces in their camp in order to attack the Roman camp of the consular. Clever. Yeah. So once again, I’ve got another Lieutenant for you, Marcus Gaganius. And some of the cohorts are sent to ambush the camp. And again, yes, finds that the people at the camp were completely fixated on like, what was happening with the attack on the consul’s camp, so they’re sitting there eating popcorn, they’ve got their 3D glasses on. They weren’t really paying attention to security of their own campsite. So when he attacks, he seems to take it pretty easily, and is therefore able to send up a smoke signal that he had pre arranged with Postumius to be like, job done. Tick, tick.
Dr G 32:40 Nice. Yeah.
Dr Rad 32:41 So Postumius
Dr G 32:42 So far, so smooth.
Dr Rad 32:43 Yeah. So Postumius sends out word to everybody. It’s all good. Everybody the camps been captured. We’re making great progress here. And then daybreak, which means enter the cavalry. And…
Dr G 32:56 I was gonna say, the charge of the horse.
Dr Rad 32:58 Exactly, exactly. And also, our friend Quinctius Poenus, he now feels that he can properly engage with the enemy. I think he feels that things have definitely turned in their favor. Daybreak. It’s a bit easier, obviously, you know, to deal with the situation. And plus dubious of course, is going to ambush the enemy from behind. So it’s looking pretty grim for the aqueous and the vowel skins. I mean, they seem to be trapped from a lot of different directions.
Dr G 33:27 I was gonna say this is more than a pincer movement. They’ve got them surrounded.
Dr Rad 33:31 However, it’s time for a hero, Dr. G.
Dr G 33:34 A what?
Dr Rad 33:35 A hero!
Dr G 33:36 We don’t we don’t have one already?
Dr Rad 33:38 No, a hero on the other side.
Dr G 33:40 Oh,
Dr Rad 33:41 Yeah. So one Volscian called Vettius Messius.
Dr G 33:47 Vettius Messius? Amazing. I love this guy already.
Dr Rad 33:51 I know. So Ogilvie has suggested that he is crafted very much in the form of a Homeric hero. And so he steps in. He’s not maybe it’s because he’s so well. He’s been doing a lot of training. Anyway, so he steps in. He’s not a super elite guy. He’s not from the most powerful volsky and family you’ve ever heard of, but he has earned respect from his people. Through his many impressive deeds, which live he does not take the time to tell me about dammit, yeah. But he is the one that starts rallying the Aequians and the Volscians. He’s like, Come on, guys. We can’t give in. I know things will desperate. But this is not the time to surrender we have to fight on. Now. Whilst he might be a bit of a Homeric hero type character that’s stepping into our story here. Ogilvie thinks that he is a genuine person, or at least like there’s some basis for him in reality, because messiness is apparently an Oscan name.
Dr G 34:59 Hmm.
Dr Rad 35:01 Yeah, it’s like a it’s like related to the name Mettius, which we’ve seen before, like Mettius Fufetius, another favorite name of ours from our past episode. And you can apparently find the name Vettius in Etruria and also Sabine country.
Dr G 35:20 Oh, interesting. Okay, so he’s got a name that’s not doesn’t sit in within the sort of like the Roman history of names. It sits in that surrounding area of Italy. So, you know, if they’ve made him up, at least they got the detail right about where his name might have come.
Dr Rad 35:38 Exactly. So the fight against the Romans is now renewed because they have their hero standing up for them.
Dr G 35:47 I need a hero.
Dr Rad 35:48 Yes, exactly. So they start attacking the Romans who are under our friend, I’m just gonna call him Albus. The other Postumius, because otherwise, it’s way too confusing. So our friend Albus is being attacked and the Romans are actually being driven back such is there further in this fight. But this is when the dictator Postumius’ men show up and there’s really fierce fighting happening. The Romans are determined, but Messius is there, and they’re just as determined it’s up. It’s crazy. Dr. G, so many people get hurt, so many people die. This is the mark of a great battle. And Roman leaders even get hurt. So it would seem
Dr G 36:34 Oh, that’s rare.
Dr Rad 36:36 So it would seem that our lieutenant Postumius Albus is the only one who is sort of taken for the battle because his head has been badly injured by a stone.
Dr G 36:48 Oh, no. Alright.
Dr Rad 36:50 The dictator, Postumius, he’s fighting on but he’s received a pretty serious shoulder injury, and Fabius – and I don’t really understand how this works, and to be honest, I don’t want to have it explained to me – Fabius apparently his thigh. He’s somehow been injured in a way that’s pinning him to his horse.
Dr G 37:11 Oh.
Dr Rad 37:12 Yeah.
Dr G 37:12 Oh, that’s not good.
Dr Rad 37:14 I don’t I’m
Dr G 37:15 Not good for him and not good for the horse.
Dr Rad 37:16 I’m kind of hoping that means the horse gently fell over. But I don’t think that’s the case. And Quinctius Poenus has sustained a serious injury is one of his arms. I actually think that Livy means that he’s lost one of his arms.
Dr G 37:33 Well, that is pretty serious.
Dr Rad 37:35 Now, apparently, this is an this whole episode bears an uncanny resemblance to some of the happenings of the Iliad.
Dr G 37:45 Hmm.
Dr Rad 37:46 So I’m once again going to cite Ogilvie who’s highlighted that the injury sustained in the arm by Quinctius Poenus is very much like one sustained by Agamemnon, whereas the injury sustained by Fabius with the whole leg thing and being pinned, that is like Diomedes, and Iulius’ damaged side and shoulder is also very similar to the other mentioned, we have to the the shoulder injury, and Hector was the one that got hit in the head with a stone and taken from the battlefield in this particular battle.
Dr G 38:27 Now, I don’t want to ruin this theory, because obviously, Ogilvie is an excellent scholar and bless his soul. He was with us for too short a time. But when you’re in an ancient battle, and you’re on the battlefield, and you’ve got your ancient weapons, and you’ve got your horses, and you’ve got your rocks, how similar over time, are the injuries likely to be?
Dr Rad 38:53 I hear what you’re saying, I just thought I’m gonna flag it because it does seem like a very strange coincidence. So we’ve got all these elite men on the battlefield. And the injuries that they sustained are very much like this particular battle in the Iliad.
Dr G 39:10 Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. I’m just gonna I’m gonna maintain my my small dose of skepticism.
Dr Rad 39:17 Oh, sure. Yeah, for sure. I totally get where you’re coming from. But yeah, it’s just one of those things where it’s like,
Dr G 39:22 Is Livy trying to tell us that this battle is equivalent to the Iliad?
Dr Rad 39:30 No, I don’t see I think that Livy has a tendency to make these Republican battles much more epic than they actually were. I see. I think that’s definitely the case. Anywho So, Mercy is keeping up the fainting along with his band of courageous use of the vault scans. They end up trampling over the carcasses of slain Romans in their battle to make it back back to the Volscian camp. Because the Romans had seemingly captured the Aequian camp previously. Of course, they are pursued by the Romans. So they are followed by the dictator and the other Roman forces were another fierce and full on battle ensues at the camp itself. And it’s apparently at this moment that Quinctius Poenus throws his standard into the stockade of the camp, encouraging the Romans to go and fetch, go get it, boy.
Dr G 40:32 The Romans love that kind of thing. We’ve seen some examples of this before where it’s like, you know, there’s nothing quite like holding on to the standard. And I know that Livy will be all across those kinds of narratives as well due to later moments in history.
Dr Rad 40:46 Exactly. And finally, this is apparently what enables them to break into the camp from one direction. And then from another direction, you’ve got the Romans making headway under the dictator. And this is where the Volscians just give up. They throw aside their weapons and they’re like, you win, we surrender. We give up.
Dr G 41:04 Oh, no, this is a bad time. It’s like so they’re surrounded. And they, they give up.
Dr Rad 41:09 They do. So the camp is taken. Sadly, the men who are captured are sold into slavery, although Livy has an intriguing detail that senators were not sold into slavery.
Dr G 41:13 Hmm. Okay, all right. All right. But what do we know about Messius, then? Is he sold into slavery? Is he a senator of…
Dr Rad 41:36 Alas, I do not know, Dr. G. His fate is lost to history.
Dr G 41:40 It’s a very mess-ius affair all round.
Dr Rad 41:42 It is Indeed. So the Romans capture a lot of booty because they’ve taken these two camps. They give a portion to their allies, the Latins and the Hernicians. Mostly stuff that seemingly was taken from them in the first place. But I guess it’s the thought that counts.
Dr G 41:59 Here, have this back.
Dr Rad 42:00 Yeah, the rest is sold at auction by Postumius. Postumius then leaves Quinctius Poenus is in charge of the camp. And he goes back to Rome to do the right thing because of course, he is an all around awesome guy and lay down his power as a dictator. Now that mission accomplished.
Dr G 42:20 I’ve done that thing, and I no longer need to be the supreme leader of all of Rome.
Dr Rad 42:26 Exactly. Now, there is a weird little postscript to this whole affair, which is that there is a possibility that Aulus Postumius, our dictator’s son, had been a part of this conflict.
Dr G 42:41 Oh, oh, I have a story on this. I will jump in. And then potentially you’ll just correct me anyway, because my story myself, I don’t have many sources. But the sources that I do have suggests something really quite interesting. So this is coming from Valerius Maximus sort of compiles lots of interesting tidbits of the past. And he talks about Postumius Tubertus, this dictator – really particular name, so he stands out in any material he appears in – as being like one of the great dictators, and really sort of amps up this guy. And I will read out the quote, I think, because it is there’s a lot of flourish here, which I think is worth noting. “So there I too Postumius Tubertus and Manlius Torquatus (another guy that comes up later in history) strictest guardians of war-like concerns. I feel hesitation as I include you in memorial narratives, because I perceive that overwhelmed by the weight of the glory you have deserved, I shall reveal the insufficiency of my abilities, rather than present your virtue in its proper light.” So he’s kind of like, I don’t think I can tell this story and do it justice: this is how great you are. “For you, dictator Postumius, you had a son, Aulus Postumius, whom you had been gotten to propagate the succession of your line, and innermost rights, whose infant blandishments you had fostered in your bosom with kisses, taught him letters as a boy, arms as a young man, blameless, brave, loving you as he loved his country. But because he went forth from his post, and routed the enemy of his own motion, and not by your bidding, you ordered the victor, to be beheaded. And your fortitude availed to the using of your parental voice, for the execution of this command. For I am well assured that your eyes overspread with darkness and broader stay, could not look upon them. might work of your spirit.” So like we’ve got this story where it’s like, his son is part of the command structure somehow in this battle, and we don’t have him listed anywhere in the official records, but apparently sees an opportunity, takes the initiative as a commander. And because he wasn’t given the direct order, by the dictator, his father, he shouldn’t have executed he shouldn’t have gone forward with with moving into the battle. And because he comes back victorious, maybe the son thinks, you know, all will be forgiven, you know, all they did was see an opportunity and go for it. And isn’t that you know, the mark of virtus of a Roman military commander? And the answer to that is: very much not. Everything is about the structure of command, and the structure of command must be preserved at all times. And it becomes the duty of the dictator, to then perform the order to execute his own son. Horrifying.
Just like Brutus, eh!
Well, I feel like this is kind of the moment where we can see how, at the end of the Regal period where we have that situation with Lucretia upholding what is this sort of ideal feminine virtue within the constructs of patriarchy, and the toxicity of that moment, we can see the same sort of toxic element of Roman patriarchy now playing out and how it works for the men. Because this is a moment where a military commander, having won the day his son has contributed to that, but because it hasn’t happened in the right sequence, he has to perform this execution. And it’s a tragedy all around.
Dr Rad 46:54 Absolutely. So that’s pretty much the story that I get as well that Postumius who obviously has this connection, this family connection to the great Postumius who had helped to secure that victory at Regillus. You’ve also got obviously other Postumii involved in the battle. But yes, in this moment of triumph, he has to come home and execute his son by having him beheaded, because he left his post when he was specifically ordered not to. The only detail that I can add on is that Livy does not believe that this is the case. Now, I love his reasoning for it. And okay, yes, this isn’t this is the translator talking but I think it captures – I’m gonna run with it. He says that no one wants to believe this story. And the diversity of opinion allows one to reject it.
Dr G 47:49 Is this Livy, not naming his sources again?
Dr Rad 47:52 It is. But I just love the idea that look, everybody has an opinion about this story. And we all think Postumius, is an amazing guy, and nobody wants to believe he would execute his own son. So let’s just say didn’t happen.
Dr G 48:04 I don’t want to believe.
Dr Rad 48:06 Yeah, one of the reasons that he cites is that there is a similar story, as you’ve alluded to, which we’ll come to again later on with a guy called Titus Manlius. So Titus Manlius, his his son had also defied his father’s orders and entered into a fight when he wasn’t supposed to. And even though he won the fight, his dad felt it was necessary to assert the authority of a console and therefore had him bound to a stake and his head cut off. And this therefore gave rise to a particular saying about Manlian discipline. Now, Livy thinks that, I guess because this happened later, perhaps, that it would make any sense for them to have the saying of Manlian discipline, if Postumius was the one who did it first. And also Manlius was known to be so strict that he was given the surname, Imperiosus, Imperiosus, or “The Despotic” and Postumius wasn’t given anything like that. So even though he was known to be, like, strict and stern, as a Roman man was supposed to be, particularly he’s in a position of authority. Maybe he didn’t go quite that far.
Dr G 49:20 Yeah, it’s I wonder, then when where the story kind of derives from and wonder if maybe what we’re getting here is – and this is just pure speculation, there’s no way to prove this one way or the other – whether this is part of a family story of the Postumii that is told amongst themselves in order to explain the death of a young man somewhere in their line. And that somehow that’s worked its way into sort of a greater imagination at some point, but maybe doesn’t make it into all of the records.
Dr Rad 49:54 There’s definitely confusion about it. And so I wouldn’t be surprised as you say, if this is some sort of family lore or oral history or something like that.
Dr G 50:02 Well, all I can say is that Valerius Maximus clearly leans into the narrative and gets super emotional in his recap of it. So definitely one of the people that’s sort of sitting on the opposite side of the fence to Livy on this one.
Dr Rad 50:19 Although I think they do share in common their admiration for Postumius, this particular Postumius amongst other Postumiuses. So I do have a tiny little bit of detail to finish off the year, which is hilariously anticlimactic, but I’m gonna throw it at you anyway. So now that all this is all wrapped up, Gnaeus Julius comes back. And he makes the official dedication to the Temple of Apollo, which had been promised to the god back in 433, allegedly, when there was that year of really bad plague. Now, he did not wait for his colleague Quinctius Poenus, to come back for them to draw lots about who had the right to do the dedication, because Quinctius, of course, is still out minding the camp that was left behind by the dictator.
Dr G 51:10 These two really don’t get along, do they?
Dr Rad 51:12 Oh, boy, oh boy is Quinctius upset when he comes back and finds that this is what has happened. Because of course, you can’t undo a dedication of a temple.
Dr G 51:22 Yeah, if the gods say it’s okay to do it. You go ahead with it. Yeah. Really awkward.
Dr Rad 51:27 Yeah. So he therefore makes a formal complaint to the Senate who do nothing.
Dr G 51:34 Amazing.
Dr Rad 51:35 Yeah. Which I just thought again, sometimes, even in the midst of doing something, it’s not every day that someone these days would dedicate a temple. And yet, the toxic workplace, the HR that does nothing.
Dr G 51:51 I can’t believe you would undermine me like that. I’m gonna put in a complaint.
Dr Rad 51:55 Yeah.
Dr G 51:56 Why have I never heard back?
Dr Rad 51:58 And did so I thought that was just a hilarious little side note to add to wrap up the year 431 before we head into the Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, tell us what the Partial Pick is all about
Dr G 52:17 The Partial Pick. Well, we evaluate Rome by its own criteria, which means sometimes they do fabulously. And sometimes they do terribly. They can win up to 50 Golden Eagles across five categories out of 10 each. So first cab off the rank is military clout.
Dr Rad 52:37 Oh, yeah. I mean, this has got to be a high one. I think
Dr G 52:42 they did route them in the end after fierce fighting in many quarters.
Dr Rad 52:48 And they don’t really seem to have ever put a foot wrong.
Dr G 52:51 That’s true. Yeah. Hit the cavalry. That was a good move.
Dr Rad 52:56 Yep. sneak attacks. Working as a team. Yeah.
Dr G 52:59 Throwing a standard into a camp. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, despite I mean, all of the commanders seem to get injured in fantastically Homeric ways. But aside from that, or good, I mean, this as long as the scars are on the front, still. Okay.
Dr Rad 53:15 Absolutely. So is it a 10? Or is that too high?
Dr G 53:19 No, I think it might be a 10. Because everybody loves this dictator. It seems like the legacy of the narrative is like this guy was great.
Dr Rad 53:27 Yeah. Okay, so we’re on a 10. Good start, or we’ve already beaten that previous goal. Let’s just stop.
Dr G 53:35 Diplomacy.
Dr Rad 53:37 I think we have agreed in the past that when war is happening, it tends to imply that diplomacy is not,
Dr G 53:42 but they do give the spoils to the Latins and the Hernicians that were their spoils in the beginning. That seems a pretty nice thing to do.
Dr Rad 53:53 I guess there’s a certain diplomacy involved in that. But I again, I’m only going to give them the one Dr. G.
Dr G 54:01 Always having to convince you on the diplomacy.
Dr Rad 54:04 They’re not they’re not a very diplomatic people. They’re just not.
Dr G 54:06 That’s true. That’s yeah, yeah. Expansion.
Dr Rad 54:09 No, I mean, they they’re just fighting, I think a defensive or at this point in time.
Dr G 54:14 Yeah. There’s no claiming of territory, really. Virtus?
Dr Rad 54:17 Yes. I think that would be a yes.
Dr G 54:20 Incredible amounts of virtus on display.
Dr Rad 54:23 Yeah,
Dr G 54:23 Wounded shoulders being pinned to horses, conking a stone in their head. It’s all happening. And also that final tragic story, whether we believe it or not, is actually a huge example of the way that Romans think about virtus as well. Like, what is the most important thing for a Roman man, and part of it is to prioritize Rome over anything else.
Dr Rad 54:49 And there’s nothing more precious than a son.
Dr G 54:52 Hmm,
Dr Rad 54:53 Yeah.
Dr G 54:54 So that that is a big thing to do.
Dr Rad 54:56 Yeah.
Dr G 54:56 And it seems that like it was super important that he did it. In order to maintain the structures as they stand.
Dr Rad 55:04 So is that going to be a 10? out of 10? Again?
Dr G 55:07 I feel like it yeah.
Dr Rad 55:08 Okay. All right. Let’s do it.
Dr G 55:09 Horrifyingly so.
Dr Rad 55:11 Yeah. Who would have known that the execution of children is what would bring us to this point?
Dr G 55:18 It was old enough to be in battle. I don’t think I mean, he was a child in the sense that you know, that his father did it. But, uh, you know, anyway, yeah. The citizens score.
Dr Rad 55:29 But there’s not much specific mention of citizens, apart from the fact that there’s no Get Out of Jail Free card in this battle.
Dr G 55:37 No, it’s not a it’s not a great levy to be part of. No,
Dr Rad 55:41 but on the other hand, there are no specific complaints. So
Dr G 55:49 Are complaints permitted under a dictator?
Dr Rad 55:52 Well, he’s not always in charge. There’s no specific complaints mentioned in the lead up to him being appointed, you know whether consuls are bickering.
Dr G 56:04 Yeah, look, I don’t want to say that the absence of evidence means that it’s definitely not happening, but
Dr Rad 56:13 Oh, no, I don’t think it’s great. I would, I would wait, I would fall on the side of it not being a great time because there’s conflict. Nobody’s accepting any excuses. Room is victorious. Okay. It could be a lot worse, but
Dr G 56:29 People definitely have to die for that to happen. It’s not like they get out unscathed.
Dr Rad 56:33 Exactly. So when are we going to say like a three? Yeah, maybe a two or three? Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s say three. That means that room has a grand total of 24 Golden Eagles. They’re so close to getting a pass.
Dr G 56:53 One day soon.
Dr Rad 56:55 But you know, that’s a massive improvement from our previous episode, which was one.
Dr G 56:59 Yeah, look, they’ve come a long way in just a year. It’s amazing what a couple of great battles and a dictator will do for you.
Dr Rad 57:05 Exactly, exactly. Well, thanks so much for telling me all about another glorious Postumius to add to my collection.
Dr G 57:15 It’s been an absolute pleasure. And thank you so much for sharing all of these details about 431. I knew so little going in, and now I feel so enriched.
Dr Rad 57:23 Don’t thank me. Thank Livy.
Dr G 57:30 On behalf of Dr. Rad and myself, I want to send a huge thank you to all of our listeners and supporters. As you may know, we have our new book, our first our only currently book coming out very soon it is called “Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome”. And if you’re interested in pre ordering a copy, you’ll need to head over to Highlands dash press.com to secure your copy. You’ll be supporting an indie publisher, which is very much in keeping with what we’re all about, as well as indie podcasters. And in keeping with our thanks to our patrons, we want to send a shout out to the following people as well. Alex, Amanda, Zara Ben CW Dariel David M. David R. David T. Dendrio, Dorian, Alicia and Erin, thank you so much for your support. And thank you for listening in.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Enslaved Women During Slave Revolts with Assistant Professor Katharine Huemoeller
Jan 05, 2023
We were thrilled to sit down and talk with Assistant Professor Katharine Huemoeller about her research into the representation of enslaved women during slave revolts in ancient Rome. This conversation reveals plenty of food for thought about the representation of women in the ancient world as well as exploring the way women go on to be represented in later eras.
Special Episode – Enslaved Women during Slave Revolts with Assistant Professor Katharine Huemoeller
The Slaves are Revolting
And rightly so. Conditions for enslaved people in ancient Rome could vary widely from difficult manual roles such as mining and agriculture to the challenges of proximity to enslavers in the domestic sphere. Human trafficking also has a significant role to play in understanding gladiators. Assistant Professor Huemoeller takes us through some of the main ways to consider slavery in Rome before turning our attention to three key slave revolts:
Revolt of Volsinii (265 BCE)
First Sicilian Slave War (135-132 BCE)
Third Slave War/ Spartacus Slave War (73-71 BCE)
These examples offer the opportunity to consider enslaved women a little more closely and it’s here that the conversation gets really interesting.
A coloured mosaic depicting two lovers together surrounded by attendants (likely slaves). One pour liquid from a vessel; one attends beside the bed. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons. Taken in the Kunsthistorisches Museum (Vienna, Austria)
Things to Listen Out for
The role of menstruation during Spartacus’ war against Rome!
The agricultural uprising in Sicily and the ways in which slaves treated free women
The challenges of reading with and against the evidence when it comes to the Volsinii
And no conversation about Spartacus would be complete without a deep dive into the representation of women in Kirk Douglas’ Spartacus (1960) and the more recent Starz series Spartacus: Blood and Sand
A painting called ‘The Slave Market’ by Gustave Boulanger (1886) which shows a range of enslaved people waiting to be sold. Most wear discs around their neck indicating their enslaved status.
Huemoeller, Katharine P. D. 2021. ‘Sexual Violence in Republican Slave Revolts‘ in Kamen, D., Marshall, C. W. (eds.) Slavery and Sexuality in Classical Antiquity (University of Wisconsin Press), 159-173.
Generated by Otter AI. Hopes and prayers for the AI learning our Australian accents, Latin terms, and other very niche phrases!
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:19 we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad
Dr G 0:34 and I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to a special episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts Dr. Rad
Dr G 1:07 and I’m Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:09 We are joined by a very exciting guest who shares some of our interests today, we are joined by Professor Huemoeller. Assistant Professor Huemoeller worked for a nonprofit, the National Women’s Law Centre in Washington, DC for several years before returning to the academic world. She has taught at Princeton University, Middlebury College, and at US correctional facilities through the prison teaching initiatives. She is currently the Assistant Professor of Roman History at the University of British Columbia. And we are very excited to talk to her today, because her special areas of interest include things like slavery and sexual violence, and we’re going to be another word excited about sexual violence. But we’re excited that we’re going to be talking about issues of slavery and gender. That’s probably what I should say. So welcome to the show.
Katharine Huemoeller 1:59 Thank you so much. That always happens to me. I can’t wait to teach this class on slavery. It’ll be interesting that Yeah.
Dr Rad 2:08 All right. So let’s kick off with one of our introductory questions. So you’ve obviously written a lot about incidents of slave results in the Roman Republic, but just to set the scene for our listeners, can you tell us a little bit about the status of slaves in Rome?
Katharine Huemoeller 2:24 Yeah, absolutely. So I’ll talk specifically about slaves in the Republican era, because slavery is quite distinct in different periods of Roman history. And it really sort of takes off in terms of numbers in the Italian peninsula, in the third and second centuries BCE, as Rome expands, more and more people are trafficked into Italy, and sold on the slave market. So there’s a direct link between Roman conquest and the growth of the Roman Empire and the growth of the Roman slave system. But what slavery looked like and how it was experienced was extremely diverse. And some people were were employed on plantation style, agricultural estates, for surplus, you know, production of food, with very, very tough conditions, very harsh conditions, and very little chance of ever being manumitted, much less living a very long life. Other people lived in an urban context, or worked in a domestic context. And the lived conditions were perhaps a bit better than agricultural slavery. But it came with its own horrors, including proximity to owners, maybe increased chance of sexual violence and sexual exploitation, especially for enslaved women, but also for enslaved men. So it looked really different depending on who your owner was, and where you lived, and also, who you were, where you came from. And if you are a man or a woman or a child or an adult.
Dr G 3:58 Yeah, it’s a there’s a lot to take in when it comes to thinking about like the status of slaves in the ancient Roman world, just because there are so many diverse areas that somebody could end up in in terms of like, their place, either like, maybe it will be mining, maybe it will be in the field, maybe it will be in the home. And all of those come with their own risks. And to I don’t think we should ever underestimate the nature of the human workforce that is being utilised in many ancient societies in particularly ancient Rome, just in terms of when you look back to see what was achieved and also the labour that was utilised to achieve those things. So thank you so much for giving us a bit of a taste of the things that are going to be coming out. As we delve further into the questions.
Katharine Huemoeller 4:53 That point about under estimating is an important one too, because the big challenge with ancient slavery is I mean, we can say It looks very diverse, that’s clearly true. But it’s hard to say much else definitively because our record for ancient slavery is is so difficult. And certain types of slavery, certain sleeving strategies appear appear more clearly in the historical record than others. So we have more information, for example, about agricultural slavery in this period, you know, and sort of less idea what’s going on in a domestic context or more information about enslaved men than about enslaved women. So it’s always the question of filling in these very large gaps in our archive.
Dr Rad 5:35 Oh, definitely. Look, we’ve found we’ve been looking at the Roman monarchy a bit because we’ve been working on a book on that period. And as you said, I tend to think of slavery more later in room’s history, you know, during the Republic, when we start to see those big wars that are happening, and lots of people being captured in a conflict and then being made slaves, and then that obviously setting up the possibility of having more slaves because their people are bought into slavery, etc, etc. But the crazy thing was that when we actually stopped and looked at the records, there were references to slaves, and they were everywhere, even in that very early period. And whilst Okay, yeah, some things you know, you might look at them as being maybe troops or something like that. There’s just so many references to think that slavery itself wasn’t a part of Roman society, even all the way back at the beginning.
Katharine Huemoeller 6:27 Yeah, I completely agree. And I think there’s still a lot of work to be done on these earlier forms of slavery. I mean, obviously, it’s in the tall tables, which I know you guys covered. And that’s a great indication that it’s, you know, significant, and it’s a maybe a fairly clear demarcated legal status. But then, of course, it’s also, you know, only one of many different types of dependency in that period, including debt bondage, and, and maybe there was less of a clear line between these types of exploitation. And then the other issue, of course, is that I think in that early period, maybe there are more enslaved people coming from closer to the city of Rome, as opposed to from very far away. And so I expect there, you know, there’s a difference there in terms of the relationship of ethnicity and slavery, but I think there’s a lot more work to be done.
Dr G 7:17 Definitely. Yeah, once you start looking into the little tidbits that we do have access to is like, Yeah, you get the sense that this is a much wider picture. And there’s much more that we can learn as we go along. So thinking about your work and where it has led you in your research, you have focused on three main revolts, slave revolts. So when people are rising up against these conditions that they have found themselves in their lack of agency, and then recapturing that through the process of revolt. And I’m wondering if we can just go through the details of them a little bit. So starting with the revolt of the Volsinii in 265 BCE? What’s going on there?
Katharine Huemoeller 8:00 Yeah, this is one I really didn’t know much about until I started researching this topic. This the Spartacus revolt is very famous, right?
Dr Rad 8:07 I’ve never heard of it.
Katharine Huemoeller 8:14 So um, so this revolt is as definitely more small scale earlier on right in the third century, middle third century. And the sources for it are a bit sketchy, but it is attested in multiple sources. And what seems to happen is that there’s some sort of uprising in this atrocity and city. And it’s a sort of class struggle, and the exact identity of the people rising after it is different in different sources. In some sources, they’re enslaved people. And it’s a serious enough for revolt that the city asks Rome to intervene and assist and, you know, setting the social order back to what it was. So that’s, that’s one of these revolts. And I think it’s an interesting one, because it’s clear that there’s actually a lot of smaller scale revolts happening in the third and second century that we only hear little snippets about, but it seems actually to have been quite frequent. And Amy racialist has done some work on gathering these into a timeline in her slave theatre book. So, just recognising that probably this is happening quite frequently in the Italian peninsula and these two in these two centuries, even though you know, the ones we hear about are these larger scale ones that are called the really the first second and third servile wars essentially. So moving into the second one there, or the first one there, that’s a little less than a century later and the 130s in on the island of Sicily. So, all of these are taking place, you know, I guess I say the Italian peninsula but including Sicily, so in you know, Italy, Southern Italy and Sicily, in regions where agriculture is, you know, predominant. And this first slave revolt is led by a charismatic figure named Yunus As who sort of rises up in one of the major cities in the Catanian plain of Sicily, again, this really important sort of grain producing region, and he manages to, you know, work with other enslaved people in the area to capture the city, and then the revolt spreads to the whole island. And you know, that’s when, of course, Rome takes notice. And then the third one that’s quite that I focus on is the Spartacus slave war, sometimes known as the third slave war, which again, is happening a little less than a century after that. So in the 70s BCE, and in this one, an interesting man, a very enigmatic man named Spartacus, who is maybe Thracian, maybe not, is captured and enslaved in a gladiatorial school in Capua, and manages to break out along with other enslaved Gladiators, and maybe his wife, but we’ll get to that. And once again, you know, similarly to the first slave revolt, the revolt is sort of, at first seen as a minor thing, and not much effort is put to putting it down. And then it sort of grows in size as the rebel army starts to grow as encompasses other people, other enslaved people, but also maybe other free but disenfranchised people in the south of Italy. And it becomes a quite massive revolts that, you know, the Roman army actually takes a few years to suppress.
Dr Rad 11:29 Amazing, thank you so much for that. So obviously, there’s a lot that is interesting about these slave revolts. But I believe the reason that you have focused on these ones in your article was that these revolts involve violence, and particularly, they are revolts that involve sexual violence. And we’ve got records of that. So what did you notice about the way this violence has been represented in the sources?
Katharine Huemoeller 11:57 Yeah, so these these revolts came to my notice, because I am currently working on a book project on the sexual exploitation of enslaved people. And what I noticed in these revolts is that one of the types of violence that the enslaved rebels are said to direct at the free people, and particularly at their enslavers is sexual violence. And so I was interested in looking at sort of what how that manifested itself, not so much to understand what happened during these revolts. But instead to understand from the perspective of these free writers, what did they think enslaved people wanted to rebel against? What kind of violence did they think they wanted to inflict on the Masters, understanding that this is essentially a sort of role reversal, where the enslaved people are said to inflict the types of violence that they themselves have experienced as slaves? So I thought this could tell me something about the conditions of slavery. What I found when I looked at the sources is that there’s actually lots of different types of sexual violence that are inflicted on free people in these revolts. But it’s all directed at free women. And so what we see is that the slave rebels are said to commit acts of rape, and other types of sexual outrage, essentially, it’s very vague, to free matrons and to free virgins, and that these are done in front of their husbands or fathers. And that second part of that second detail clued me in to the fact that these acts are actually sort of intended to injure the free men, using the free women sort of as an instrument. And so that’s, that’s what I became interested in, through studying these is the way in which these enslaved men are sort of claiming the privileges of free masculinity in the revolts.
Dr G 13:56 Yeah, this is a really interesting aspect and insight into Roman sexuality, isn’t it? Because the this ties back into these ideas about the power that is thought to be inherent from a Roman perspective in sexual encounters, where it’s partly to do with the gender of the people involved, but it’s also partly to do with how you place yourself in the patriarchal hierarchy of Roman society who gets to do who to white becomes super important for being able to like know exactly where you sit socially, not just sexually, and the utilisation of women in this not as sort of agents in their own right, but perhaps as vehicles for conveying something about Roman masculinity is not at all surprising, but incredibly infuriating. I feel like
Katharine Huemoeller 14:50 yeah, that Yeah, that’s exactly right. What I’ve what I found is that it wasn’t just that these enslaved men were raping the free women. It was also the If they were, for example, protecting some free women from rape and choosing to rape others, or so this idea that the free masculinity or hegemonic masculinity and Roman society is about not just getting to do what you want to other people, but choosing right, who experiences what and who was allowed to do what. And so that includes not only, you know, sexual violence directed and enslaved people, but also that includes the sort of protection or maybe you could say, I don’t know, supervision, control of free women. So one of the stories that we get in the slave revolts is that the slave rebels choose this one teenage free woman who was very kind to them when they were enslaved, and they escort her to the house of her family members, and explicitly are protecting her sexual virtue. And I think that is as much a privilege of free masculinity, as you know, raping the matrons in front of their husbands.
Dr Rad 16:06 Absolutely. And I mean, obviously, this sexual violence is taking place in a broader context as well. Like, that’s not the only privilege that they’re claiming all of the time. And the one that particularly stood out to me in this regard is the the revolt of Athena, which I never really heard of before reading your article, as you said, it’s the lesser known. So thinking about what the slaves might have been trying to achieve through their actions, you know, more broadly speaking, because I know that during that particular revolt, they take all sorts of crazy actions, you wouldn’t expect slaves to, you know, to be able to take or to even maybe want to take in trying to, you know, set themselves up in a new way of life after their revolt. Yeah,
Katharine Huemoeller 16:49 this is a really interesting one. So supposedly, they, they sort of enact a number of reforms. It’s actually very, it’s very legalistic, rather than, you know, crazy violence, right. So one of the things they do is they become senators, they set up a sort of their own Senate. Another thing they do is they sort of rewrite the rules of inheritance. And it’s a little unclear, either they become the heirs to their former owners, or they write their own wills, it’s not clear which one and then they also rewrite the rule of stupid, which is illicit sex in Roman law. So this is technically happening in an attractive city, but extremely Roman. And always. And so what they say is that a free woman is is not allowed to get married to a free man, until an enslaved man has, has had sex with her first, which is just an extremely strange reform, and is again clearly linked to these ideas about what masculinity is and how to punish free men. And this is the sort of ultimate punishment right to make them marry a woman over whom they’ve had no control over her chastity or sexual virtue.
Dr G 18:05 I think this also tells us something about the nature of what our written sources, perhaps fear most, they’re kind of writing a narrative about, like, what are they most afraid of happening to them? If the slaves succeed? This is not a narrative of how slaves might have pursued their own freedom or how they would have defined it. I don’t know if I was a slave, I’d want to be my first task would be inheritance law, for instance.
Katharine Huemoeller 18:30 Right? Yeah, absolutely. This is like all of these sources are about what free people fear, they, I think have give us almost nothing about what actually happened with these revolts, or what the enslaved people want. But yeah, what’s so notable about about their desires, as represented in these sources is that they just want to be the free men, they want to take over all of their life and their privileges and their wives and their daughters. There is nothing in these accounts, hardly about enslaved women, or children. Right. So the idea here is that these men, when they sort of take control of society, they want to marry the wives of their former owners. That is not like what we see, for example, in Roman comedy, which is from a similar time period, right in which matrons are like gross, no one wants. They’re not. They’re not like objects of desire, right? But in these narratives, they are like, these are the women who are raped or taken as wives by these by these freed slaves. And so what we’re seeing there definitely is intended to show what emasculation looks like, I think in the Roman worlds, that’s what’s feared. And of course, you get that in the military context, right? The slaves are actually winning battles against the Romans. That’s really embarrassing to and emasculating. And now we also see sort of what’s emasculating in the private sphere in the home, or in the domestic sphere. Well, it’s
Dr Rad 19:58 so fascinating that you mentioned this, but because we one of the categories that we use in our show, when we’re ranking, the Romans performance when we’re doing a narrative is where source. So this inherently masculine, you know, like value, I suppose you’d call it or quality. And we try and think of that as obviously the, in a way, it’s like that right to take action, and to do so in a particular way. And it kind of ties into what you’re talking about, I think a little bit here about what the slaves are trying to claim potentially.
Katharine Huemoeller 20:32 Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s definitely where to send the Roman the Roman definition of virtue of manliness, the ability to dictate what gets done to other people, all of these other people who are subordinate to the, you know, the free male head of household. And I think that this is really encapsulated in one other event from these revolts that we haven’t talked about, which is a very another very strange one. It is the slave supposedly throw a funeral for a free captive matron, who has committed suicide, because she was raped by these slave rebels. And then to make this inversion even stronger, they force the men to perform the free men who are also captive here to perform gladiatorial combat, in honour of this woman at her funeral, because initially, that’s where gladiatorial combat came from, it was a funeral thing. And so, you know, they’re putting the men obviously in the position that they once were as gladiators. But they’re also forcing them to, you know, to participate in this sort of strange mourning of this woman who they should have been able to protect but failed to.
Dr G 21:49 Yeah, it’s a complicated situation for everybody to be in, I mean, the woman and what she went through that led her to her committing suicide, the situation where the roles have been reversed with the slaves and the Romans, and then the gladiatorial lair of a formal mourning process.
Katharine Huemoeller 22:09 And yeah, yeah, especially an interesting story. That’s so yeah, ripe for analysis. I mean, she’s very much the woman is like, very much like this Lucretia figure, right?
Dr Rad 22:18 Yeah. And so they that particular incident that you’re talking about, I believe, takes place allegedly, in the third serve our war, or the Spartacus revolts, whatever you want to call it. And I believe it comes from a source, a rosiest? Yeah, who’s writing a lot later, who’s actually writing in a Christian context. And I think that this kind of highlights not that this is something that you’re necessarily focusing on. But this sort of highlights, I suppose the issues that you must encounter with the varying kinds of source material that you’re working with for the sorts of incidents?
Katharine Huemoeller 22:50 Oh, yeah, that’s a huge problem. You’re using a Christian source to look at sexual norms in the Roman world. It’s gonna be quite different. Certainly, then, you know, Salas, for example, who’s you know, writing in the Roman Republic, the sources for these revolts, especially, you know, as we’ll go on to talk about for, you know, the presence of enslaved women and these revolts or the participation of women, these revolts there, so fragmentary and problematic, they’ve come down to us by chance, often, and they just kind of feel like they got in there by chance. Like, we weren’t even supposed to know about this. Yeah.
Dr G 23:27 Yeah. Like, I feel like I’ve got a question forming that’s related to the way that women are represented in these in these source materials. I mean, it’s partly the Euros Yes, question, I suppose in that sort of like that Christian framing, although I do love a good a rose. Yes, he does a lot of things that we don’t get to wear. But that sense in which none of these sources seem to really consider a woman’s perspective. They’re always a sort of utilitarian device in these narratives. And I’m wondering how much we can actually get out what it might have been like for these women, either as enslaved peoples, or ones who were free and become part of these enslaved narratives through these sorts of revolts with this role reversal stuff going on? Yeah,
Katharine Huemoeller 24:15 it’s really tough. The women and the stories, both free and enslaved women are very much sort of instruments of male competition, you know, violence. Yeah, just they’re sort of communicate with each other through these women is how I see it. And that’s true of the free women and the enslaved women. So when it comes to trying to understand their experience of revolt, their role and participation in it, we kind of have to work against what our sources are doing frequently. So that’s kind of a project I’m working on now is trying to understand the role of, of women in these revolts. It’s quite clear that there were women present In all of these revolts, enslaved women present in the revolts because they kind of creep into the sources just occasionally. So you just get these sort of casual asides about them, which are very tantalising. And then so I’m trying to sort of use each of these very, you know, casual references, and you focus in on it and try to unpack what it can tell us about women and these revolts. So I could we could go through a few of them if you’d like, because they’re really fascinating.
Dr Rad 25:28 I really hoping that this is the part where you’re going to bring up the women who apparently separated themselves from the Spartacan army because they’re almost exactly my favourite.
Katharine Huemoeller 25:36 They are my favourite example. We have to excitingly we have two references to this one incident, probably the same incident, where these two women are separated from the rest of the Spartacan army. They’re on a hill of sorts. And they’re doing something on that hill. And from the vantage point of the hill, they see the Roman army approaching, trying to stage an ambush, and they sound the alarm and the ambush fails. So what’s so interesting about this, the sources that are this incident is that the two writers who record it, record different reasons for why the women are up there. So Salas, who’s writing in the Republic tells us that the women were Adminster Russell window, which is you a phrase used in other texts, in reference to menstruation. But it basically means like carrying out their monthly things, duties,
Dr Rad 26:30 rituals, women’s business.
Katharine Huemoeller 26:33 Yes, exactly.
Dr G 26:36 Just up on the hill doing what,
Katharine Huemoeller 26:38 we don’t want to get too detailed about it, but there and then Plutarch, writing later, and probably looking at Sallust says that the two women are up there sacrificing or carrying out some sort of religious ritual. These things aren’t mutually exclusive, of course, right? They might be carrying out some sort of monthly ritual.
Dr G 26:56 Look, I feel like in the ancient world, if I was menstruating, I would definitely want to have a ritual associated with that of some kind and be like, Gods what’s going on? Yeah, it’s been days. When does this stop?
Katharine Huemoeller 27:07 Yeah, yeah. But once you do it in the middle of a revolt,
Dr G 27:13 like it’s tough, and it’s like, you know, if you hang out with the revolt, and you’re down on the ground, and it’s happening, and the men are turning to you being like, Are you wounded? And you’re like, I am? I am. That’s definitely what’s happening here. Like the enemies no where here. And there is definitely a situation, I don’t know what to tell you. Like, maybe it would be easier to go up the hill and be like, you know, I just need some respite from this revolt. These guys. I don’t know.
Katharine Huemoeller 27:38 Yeah. And I’m gonna take a friend with me here, the two of us are going off. Yeah, I mean, this. So this is a perfect example of the way these women sort of creep into our sources, because the only reason we even know about the stylist is that tiny fragment was excerpted for grammatical reasons. They liked the reference that women are Gallic, and there’s this weird word for Gallic in it. So they’re accepted by this later group, Marian. And then we have one single manuscript that preserves this reference by the Grimm Aryan. So that is how these women come down to us, like, by so many different elements of chance, and without the stylus, we would really not understand what foods are. So it’s just like, they’ve kind of slipped into the record, I like to think of it that way. And, and so it’s exciting opportunity for us to, to think about, you know, in what other ways they’ve slipped in, but also like, all of the ways that they’re missing, but clearly there. So in this case, you know, my, what I think is so funny about this account is like, this is basically a very embarrassing situation for the Romans, they are already engaged in a war against enslaved people, which is embarrassing, and then they’re, they’re, you know, about to, you know, have this ambush and to women. Foreign enslaved women are the ones that spy
Dr Rad 28:57 on their periods like, yeah, it’s
Katharine Huemoeller 29:00 Just like the worst of the worst for them, right?
Dr G 29:03 Yeah, it’s hitting me, right in my virtus as a Roman man, I don’t know.
Katharine Huemoeller 29:08 Talk about virtus, exactly. Like, of course, to me. Of course, these writers want to explain their presence. In other ways. They don’t want to say, hey, they were up there scouting, and they were successful.
Dr G 29:21 Yeah, these women were actually great at reconnaissance. And that’s why we sent them up there. And their sole job was to like, watch for the Army coming. And boy, did they nail that assignment?
Katharine Huemoeller 29:31 Exactly, exactly. Instead, they’re like, well, they just happened to be up there. And like, you know, they were very lucky that they saw us, you know, and that’s the other thing. It’s like, why would why do we trust Plutarch or stylist to tell us with us? I remember doing I mean, it’s crazy talk about like, you know, who has authority to tell us information? The Roman army would have maybe they would know they had been spied right. But they would have no idea like by who or why I mean, it just doesn’t make sense.
Dr G 29:57 Oh, come on. There’s gotta be somebody from ancient Rome Entertainment Tonight interviewing people afterwards. Like you were there. What did you see? What were you doing?
Katharine Huemoeller 30:06 Yeah, I mean, actually think that the most likely source is a cat a later captive, right? Because we know like Julius Caesar, for example, regularly interrogated captives to ask like what happened to them? And you know so so that’s kind of interesting. But yeah, I just love this this incidence of you know what, to me very clearly is these women you know having a strategic role essentially in the military and instead are explained away for other reasons.
Dr Rad 30:32 He reminds me of one of my favourite scenes from Parks and Recreation, where the whole gang from Parks and Rec are out on a shooting trip, someone gets shot accidentally. And a polis character is trying to cover for how that’s happened by taking responsibility herself because she has a gun licence and the person who did it doesn’t. And so when she’s being interviewed by the Ranger, or the sheriff, or whatever, she’s like, I don’t know, I’m wearing this bra that like open at the front, and it just threw me I want chocolate. I love my period, bitches be crazy.
Katharine Huemoeller 31:05 Every possible
Dr Rad 31:07 everything related to him and every stereotype at it, you’ll it’ll land, it’ll land. And actually, I
Katharine Huemoeller 31:12 should note too, like, it’ll lands not only with an ancient audience, but with a modern one. Because What’s so weird about this source is that there is actually no attestation of menstrual seclusion. As a practice, no, in the West, like, that is not a thing. And yet everybody’s like, Oh, there it is. So we knew it was happening here, too. And you’re like, What is this the source we’re gonna use for this? Really?
Dr G 31:34 You’re one fragment that’s from a single source. Good luck, guys. Yeah.
Dr Rad 31:42 So interesting. And then of course, the other woman that we we can’t neglect to talk about is Spartacus’ wife, very intriguing character.
Katharine Huemoeller 31:51 I was about to say Varinia. But then it was like, wait, no,
Dr Rad 31:53 I was about to say exactly the same thing. Because to me, she is for any issue will always be Varinia, yes. But if we’re going by the ancient source material, the nameless woman that is known as Spartacus is why
Katharine Huemoeller 32:05 exactly, yeah, we have we here plutonic that Spartacus, basically it’s sort of Plutarch introducing Spartacus as a character, a person and he says that he came from Thrace, and that he had a wife with him, who prophesized that he would be, you know, a great force, essentially, by seeing a snake curled up around his head, I think, and this was taking place in, you know, the slave market, and then somehow that they actually wound up together at the gladiatorial school, because he also, Plutarch also says that she was with him when he escaped, or she took part in the escape. So that’s interesting, because it suggests right, that this idea that, you know, they were together for a longer period of time, and that they somehow managed to stay together. Yeah. Yeah. I think that fact especially has attracted a lot of attention and made them like kind of a good opportunity for romance, essentially. Because for a story, right, because it’s so such an interesting, unusual detail.
Dr Rad 33:04 Absolutely. And she’s such a, she’s become so much a part of Spartacus as legend, I suppose in subsequent interpretations as well. She’s been really fully fleshed out. But we have so little about her apart from the fact that she might have been, like some sort of profit tests. And that Yeah, and that she managed to stay by his side, which just seems so unlikely in given what we know about slave auctions and gladiatorial schools, it just seems so rare that they would still be together.
Katharine Huemoeller 33:34 This whole episode is we’re like, no, that didn’t happen. to happen. It didn’t happen. But I was curious Dr. G, what, like, just because the other element of her that’s interesting is right, that she’s this really yeah, she’s his profit figure. And then, you know, these other women that were part of the revolt were maybe, you know, engaged in sacrifice. So there is this sort of like aura of religiosity around these women. I was wondering what your take on that was, as you know, someone who’s looked at?
Dr G 34:01 Yeah, look, I think it’s really fascinating the way that when women crop up in narratives, it’s one of the ways that’s acceptable for them to do so is through the practice of ritual. And what we’re seeing is that this pertains not just to Roman women, but to non Roman women as well, because the in all of these cases, we’re dealing with, presumably enslaved women who have at this stage by the time we’re in the Spartacus war period when we’re talking about foreign slaves, really. And so we get that weird sort of sense. But it also, I feel like this taps back into like, really ancient narratives and stuff, and I feel like the figure that pops out to me at the moment, mostly because I’ve been working on the Roman kings is Tana Quill, and this idea, so she’s the Prophet Hess. She can read the auspices and she ends up being able to prophesize the role of her husband, Lucia Tarquinius, Priscus well, before he get gets into power. And so this kind of sense in which Romans explain unusual rises to power and shifts in power through the divine, and not just through the divine, but through a female interpretation of the acts of gods. And so those women up on the hill, maybe it was the ritual, and Renea, my flesh, rabbit. Maybe it was the ritual, although I don’t know how anyone could possibly explain her being in that gladiatorial school as being like a realistic idea about the narrative. But so I’m really fascinated to understand more about gladiatorial schools to be like, do they always just take the ladies with them to keep them happy? Or something? I don’t know. Do they come as pairs? I’m looking around. And but yeah, this idea of direct line between like Women’s Action, informing men’s action through ritual understanding in the middle, it’s really common. And I think it’s partly because of that patriarchal framing of like, one way to women fit in this society, and it’s not at all clear. And God’s being somewhat unexplainable, like women, God,
Katharine Huemoeller 36:11 both unexplained, mysterious. Yeah, I think that’s definitely that, that that makes a lot of sense to me. And it’s, I think putting that the religious aura of Spartacus, in the context of the slave revolts is important, too, because a number of this sort of leading figures are said to have this some sort of religious significance or prophetic charismatic, fire, breathing, whatever, in whatever way it manifests itself. And so in some ways that actually may have been a really important part of Spartacus is leadership of this revolt. And she’s clearly an important part of that. And yet, her significance to the revolt Overall, though, is still really slim with it. So it’s kind of interesting, because you could think, oh, this made her a really key part of the revolt, because, you know, his charisma is really significant to the revolt success. And yet, you know, it’s she’s only associated with him at the moment of breaking out and then we don’t hear what if she’s involved in the revolt for as it grows larger and larger and more significant, she drops out of the narrative altogether. So it kind of minimises her role by placing her at the very beginning, even though there’s a possibility that that prophecy was actually really significant to the level.
Dr G 37:27 And it also helps, I think, from a Roman perspective, to really explain why things don’t go their way. And having those sorts of prophecies. It really taps into that sense of like, well, we didn’t make a mistake. We’re Romans, the gods were against us.
Dr Rad 37:43 Yes, good point. Well, I mean, it kind of depends as well on what their background is potentially like, if if Spartacus was genuinely Thracian, not fought as a Thracian. Maybe she was also Thracian. And so it’s just there’s so many question marks, though, about whether they actually weren’t any of this. But certainly, in relation to your earlier question, Dr. G, it’s not out of the question, obviously, that there are women who are being used for sexual purposes in a gladiatorial school. Certainly, if you became a highly prized successful gladiator you earned, you know, more privileges in the greater terrorist gladiatorial school where you were staying, you know, you could actually be like, somewhat tolerable, apart from the fact that you had to, you know, fight for your life and that kind of thing. But I don’t know whether a new recruit to a gladiatorial school will have earned any such privilege. And so I guess it just sort of, it must be chance if it actually happened, although I’ve also highly dubious about whether it did, but it must be chance that she also just happened to be what they were looking for in terms of, you know, like pitch and stuff. Or maybe they did want her for sexual purposes. Like, who knows. But yeah, whatever the purpose was, it must have been purely accidental. There is no way they’d be doing Spartacus anything. That’s yeah,
Katharine Huemoeller 39:01 and especially the way it’s represented in Plutarch is that they are captured together, right? They come from the same place, and then they that’s why they’re together and the slave market. And then it’s like, almost like they’re bought in a lot.
Dr Rad 39:13 Exactly. Yeah. That’s very possible. Yeah. But it does seem a little a little weird for a gladiatorial school to be like yeah, man, women. Yeah, whatever. We’ll take them all. Yeah, yeah. Cuz this is before the time when it’s common for women to be fighting in the arena, so she wouldn’t have been bought for that purpose. So yeah, strange. Very strange. Yeah, but ripe for fictionalisation. Right? Yeah. Well, that’s just said I was thinking like, I spend a lot of my academic career being like, where is vernia? Why isn’t she more prominent, speaking to you just and it made me realise that actually, it’s really pretty accurate for her to drop out of the store. But it’s my sister button for modern purposes. I constantly am like, Why isn’t she more fun of the story? Why has history are being downgraded? You know, why isn’t she represented the way that she was originally intentioned by Howard Fassler novelists, you know?
Katharine Huemoeller 40:09 Well, that’s, you know what? Yeah, that’s what’s so interesting, I think about this idea that she was a prophet test because, you know, when she does appearance in fiction, and you can speak more to this, because I can’t now I don’t know exactly the distinction between the script and the way the movie, I only know the movie, the way Spartacus 1960 ends up representing her, but, you know, she is she’s a completely domestic figure, at least in the second part of the movie during the revolt itself, important as you know, a vessel for bearing a child essentially. And so that’s so different actually, from from the, you know, her significance in Plutarch.
Dr Rad 40:46 That is, I mean, I think this is where the TV show by stars plays more with her religious role. You know, it’s a, they go back, because they have more time to play with obviously, they kind of start before the revolt, obviously. And they make Spartacus and auxilary. And they, they give him a whole backstory about why he turns against Rome and all that kind of stuff. And she’s a part of that story. Her death is a part of that story. But her prophecy about how he’s going to achieve like great and glorious things and, and the snake. It’s a theme that goes throughout the whole series, because she is his motivation. And those words are constantly going back to so they make something of that angle in the TV series. But they don’t really talk about that angle very much in the Howard first novel that was used as the basis for the 1960 film. And they don’t really in all of the various versions of the script. The religious side is not really what she’s known for. But she is actually a very significant figure in how it fasts novel, because his novel is told entirely through flashback. So Spartacus is dead by the time you start reading the book, and it’s told through the memories of Varinia, and David, the Jewish guy, who’s also one of Spartacus, his crew. And so it’s really told through her through her reminiscences a lot of the time, and she’s the one that like in the movie ends up surviving goes on to have children and it’s through her and her children that the legend of Spartacus is kept alive. But she’s she’s very significant in terms of being represented as very fierce. So unlike Spartacus, who is born into slavery, and like his life is pretty dreary from the beginning. Varinia has, Varinia is more a person who earlier versions of scripture has been free, and then becomes a slave. And so she fights back like there, there were scenes that were meant to be shown of the slave, the owner of the slave school raping her and her fiercely resisting. And that’s why he gives her to Spartacus, because he couldn’t physically overpower her or at least not to his satisfaction, like it’s, it’s a bit unclear, like they don’t always see obviously, it’s like we see the attack, we see the fight, and then we see her or bruised and stuff. In some versions, I think she’s meant to have been raped in some versions not. So the way it all plays out. It’s really crazy. And then once you get into the actual scripts, they have all these different versions of what she was meant to be in some versions, she was actually meant to be really highly educated. And she teaches Spartacus to read. Yeah, yeah, they. So there’s, there’s all these sorts of things. But certainly in the in the early versions of the script, you see what you see in the Howard first novel, which is that she’s a fighter, she actually there’s actually a line from the Howard fosse novel, which always stands out to me, she says, I can fight like a man can fight. And she’s, she’s definitely portrayed as being at the forefront of these attacks is like this, almost like Valkyrie, like, you know, kind of figure. And when the slaves in the novel erect this big statue to themselves to sort of commemorate who they are, they have representations of all the men from different ethnicities, but then they also have the figure of a woman, and that’s meant to be Varinia. So she’s, she’s definitely like the mother of the slave revolt. But as they get further and further into the script development, her character receives less and less attention, and she does sort of drop out a little bit, and what you’re left with, there are elements of the novel. So her being this figure of fascination for any man that meets her, you know, Batiatus, Spartacus, Crassus, Gracchus, they all fall in love with her. That’s retained, but she’s made much more passive. And it was actually something that the screenwriter, when he first saw the first kind of the film, he rebelled against it. He’s like, what the hell this is not the Varinia that I envisioned and where all the other slave women they just like disappeared, and so they actually did reshoots to add in more families, more slave women more Varinia but I think because of the nature of the ratios, she did end up becoming this What I like to call Stepford Varinia type character?
Katharine Huemoeller 45:03 Yeah, yeah. Cuz the, these, these scenes they interspersed are like, women like doing the laundry in the river, you know, during the revolts, and these, like, very domestic.
Dr Rad 45:14 Yeah. Which I mean, to be fair, again, if I’m, if I’m being fair, obviously, it’s not like, in the Roman world, it’s not like that wouldn’t have been the kinds of things that women would have been doing if they were attached to a slave army. But it is disappointing when you know, how she could have been represented, I suppose, as this, like she only really stops fighting in some of the earlier versions of the script, because she gets pregnant.
Katharine Huemoeller 45:36 Right, right. It’s so interesting to hear that, that there was this distinction made between them, where she was the person who had experienced freedom and therefore was considered to be sort of more, you know, was willing to rebel more, because that’s, that is, you know, sort of that’s kind of a debated topic, like some of the scholarship on the slave revolt says that one of the reasons these happened in this period was because a lot of the people who are being trafficked and you know, into slavery are recently free, and that they like have this sort of memory of freedom, or, you know, impetus for it that other people who are born into slavery might not have, which I don’t think bears out historically. I’ve also recently published an article that argues that, you know, many of the people who are enslaved in Conquest were already enslaved in other contexts, right in other cities, because they’re the people who are most likely to be trafficked to be taken captive and trafficked, a lot of the male, you know, free combatants are killed. And it’s women, both enslaved and free, and enslaved men, elderly people that are the ones who are taken captive. And so I think just because these people are recently sold in, you know, Italy or Sicily, that doesn’t mean that they were free in their lifetime, necessarily, nor does that mean that you would like, be more, you know, willing to revolt necessarily, I think
Dr G 47:02 Some of this must be about like, what are the suitable conditions for a revolt to take place? Like, yeah, like, there’s the moment of becoming enslaved whenever that might happen, whether you’re born into slavery, or whether you’re captured, and you have this understanding of our freedom. But I think it would be very naive to assume that people born into slavery don’t have an idea about freedom. What conditions would permit a moment where you’re like, Okay, this is this is the time to stand up and and take that risk, because it is a risk.
Dr Rad 47:32 Yeah, look, I think it has a little bit to do with a quick of how I’d fast novels, or how I fast I was attracted to write about Spartacus because of the connection with the revolts, or attempted coup that took place in Germany in 1919. And he started looking into Spartacus and he decided that he was going to make Spartacus, someone who was born into slavery as someone who had worked in the mines most of his life. Now, anybody who knows anything about slavery, whilst you might say, whilst we might not know anything about Spartacus, a backstory that we can definitively prove, I think it’s safe to say we all know that slaves in the mines do not live for really long periods of time. So the idea that he would have somehow been a slave working in the mines, like, basically his whole life or something like that. It just, it doesn’t make sense. But it’s something that they played with, I think, in the various versions of the movie in terms of making Spartacus, someone who was born into slavery, they had all sorts of different ideas about how they were going to start the movie, they were always going to start in the minds like they do. But yeah, either way, I think it’s a quirk from Howard fast, which is probably one of his less credible interpretations of the material.
Katharine Huemoeller 48:48 That’s really interesting. Do you think that there was that, you know, he wanted him to be why did he want him to be born into slavery was this idea that he had to be slowly shown another way to live?
Dr Rad 48:59 I think that was part of it in a way. Part of the part of the thing about Spartacus is that he learns from other people like he learns from people like David Perdue, who he comes into contact with, but I think it’s meant to be his nature. His his nature, and the nature of Ernie or the nature of all the slaves is meant to somehow be in stark contrast to the Romans, almost like it’s something genetic, though they are meant to represent the right way of life, which is that men and women come together because they love each other. They have to have children, they take an interest in raising those children. It’s it’s heterosexual. And the Romans, on the other hand, everything’s perverted. So they might not have children at all. If they do. They’re not interested in them. They’re not interested in family life. That’s not their thing. They take part in all sorts of twisted sexual practices. Now I say that in the sense of 1950s contexts which for a 1950s context involved homosexuality, but also incest
Katharine Huemoeller 50:07 And the women choosing which gladiator to watch.
Dr Rad 50:12 That’s that, yeah, that kind of thing. Exactly. So everything about them is meant to be like kind of impure debauch deviant, whereas everything about the slaves is meant to be much more pure. And I think that’s, and it’s also because he’s he’s offering a commentary. I mean, he was a communist. He is he’s offering a commentary on the way that industry and business contributes to this corruption of the soul. So he has actually like some quite lengthy passages where he talks about, I think it’s crisis’s perfume business. Because you do, but yeah, so it’s meant to be about obviously, like, the way that wealth works in each society, and what each society is valuing and how they’re treating workers and the class system. It’s all of these kinds of things, which is why the slaves are meant to be kind of more pure, and the way that they the way that they erected the statue, it’s obviously very, like Soviet Union, in terms of, you know, putting up that kind of imagery of themselves.
Dr G 51:17 We need a monument. Quick, somebody
Dr Rad 51:19 Yeah, exactly.
Katharine Huemoeller 51:21 And that that actually works really well with those scenes from the movie then where there’s these kind of, it’s sort of like this idyllic pastoral existence, like they’re engaged in the middle of a revolt, but they’re, like, you know, taught like singing around a fire and out in the fields. And well, and
Dr Rad 51:37 that’s very much, that’s very much how Howard Fast had envisioned the slave society is being like faily. It is like proto communist, you know, that’s exactly how he envisioned is everything working, even the way that he imagines men and women coming together, women are supposed to be able to choose their sexual partners, they’re not just like claimed by another, Gladiator or another man, just because, well, we’re out of the gladiator school, but you’re still a woman, and I still get to say what you do, he still has this vision of people being able to choose, and that includes women being able to choose who they cohabit with, and who they have sex with, as part of their whole,
Dr G 52:14 As long as it fits the heteronormative status quo…
Dr Rad 52:18 As long as that does that. Yeah.
Katharine Huemoeller 52:21 I mean, it’s so interesting that even though, you know, the reasons that these scenes wound up in the movie contemporary to his era, and very historical, in the end, one thing that the movie does, that I think is more true in some ways, is it does indicate, you know, it represents other people and engage in revolt besides just the, you know, enslaved adult men. And so, I mean, not that I think it accurately represents what their women might be were doing necessarily, or whatever, in the revolt, but it does, it just adds new people to the scene. And so that I think that that then can make you think, as a historian think, Okay, well, is there any truth to that? What were these people doing? And, and this, you know, goes beyond just the experience of enslaved women to just to think about when, you know, these rebel armies are, you know, moving up and down all over Italy? And what is the experience of everyone in in this context of revolt, right, the people who are in the town where the rebels arrive in the rebel army, this is obviously something that’s going to affect everyone in society. But we don’t often consider right, everyone.
Dr Rad 53:35 Well, definitely, as you said, the Spartacus slave revolt does manage to last for a couple of years. And therefore, we know that there are women part as part of this collective that have gathered behind Spartacus and the other slave leaders. It is certainly not out of the question that people are having sex, women are getting pregnant women are giving birth, you know, like, it’s not another question that that is happening,
Katharine Huemoeller 54:01 Or that families joined it to begin with, because, you know, we know that what’s happening on these agricultural estates that, you know, although are the writers tend to talk mostly about enslavement on these estates? You know, historians have done work already to reveal that women were absolutely there. And children were absolutely there. They’re just not the focus of the agricultural treatises. Right. But so, you know, in that case, are they you know, what is their relationship to these revolts as the rebels move through? Are they joining? Are they assisting their owners in hiding them, right? They have to make choices essentially, there’s no way to stay neutral. And I think you know, that that is that does come out of the narrative ancient narratives, right? There’s a story in the Spartan revolt where the slave rebels enter a town and it talks about how many in the town were sympathetic allies to the slaves and basically people had to make a choice whether they were going to reveal where their masters were hiding or you know, help them hide right it it was not On a possibility to remain neutral. Yeah, then we have to think okay, so then what is the experience or revolt like for all these people?
Dr Rad 55:06 Yeah. And that’s that’s something that has was toyed with in there’s actually there were actually two Spartacus movies that were going to be made based on two Spartacus novels that came out around the same time or early 20th century. So we had the one by how fast which becomes the Kirk Douglas movie and then we’ve got the one by Arthur Koestler, which was meant to be made into a Spartacus film called the gladiators, but didn’t end up happening because of character, Douglas’ project. But in there’s an interesting crossover with these, which is some of the stuff that I’ve looked at where the director of Spartacus 1960s to cook Douglas protect Stanley Kubrick became interested in the novel by Arthur Koestler, which was meant to be the basis of the other film. So there’s all sorts of weird crossovers between them. But certainly, in the novels in the various versions of the films, there are scenes that were toyed with about the slave men having conversations about, look, these women and children and old people is slowing us down. Like what are we going to do about this? And so they have toyed with these sorts of questions about how do you actually deal with a revolt? And certainly there, there certainly were going to be scenes and whether other movie, I can’t actually remember which one at the moment, I’m pretty sure it was Spartacus, 1960, where they actually had conflicts between the slave leaders over the question of whether they actually just welcome anybody or whether they only welcome those who can fight.
Dr G 56:28 So thinking about this situation for the slave revolt and their organisation? Isn’t this presumably just as problematic fit any kind of armed force, like logistics in the ancient world depends on the people. And you’ve always got this sort of, presumably entourage that has men and women, in addition to the fighters themselves, in which case, you possibly if you’re on a really significant campaign, there may be births involved there as well. And it’s like an armed forces, not just dudes wandering around with their swords out just waiting to reach the battlefield, I don’t think and so this logistics issue that the slaves are facing is presumably the same kind of logistical issue that the Roman army proper might also be facing conceivably in different points in time,
Dr Rad 57:20 I think. So I think the difference is that obviously, the Roman army is supposed to be helped by the state, you know, they’ve got this additional backup of baby, maybe they’re helping with food supply, depending on where they’re fighting, of course. But logistically, there’s like backup, whereas I suppose for a slave rebel force, they’re constantly having to look out for potential attack people turning on them. And I guess they’re not necessarily going to have like a bunch of trained fighters, whereas the Roman army presumably has a reasonable amount of men who have seen battle or have been trained,
Dr G 57:59 and maybe not supply lines, you know, just kind of a wandering force.
Katharine Huemoeller 58:04 I think you’re right, though. I think you’re right, that that that is an issue, because, you know, there is quite a lot of concern about camp followers called, and, you know, marriage bans, right, like there is a there is there are attempts throughout human history to sort of control outside of the army and like concerns about that slowing them down and messing with discipline as well.
Dr Rad 58:25 Yeah. And I think to be fair, although I’m, I’m really speaking off the cuff here, because it’s been a little while since I’ve looked over my material. But I have a feeling that part of the arguments, and at least one of the things they imagined was actually about, do we accept fighters. So we’re sick of accepting agricultural workers, whether they’re men or women who are coming to join us, because they imagine that there’s, you know, a core group of gladiators who know how to fight. And so I think it was partly about that some of the time or their training then their gender or their age. But they also played with those questions, obviously, of children and the elderly, and women in particular, slowing people down. But yeah, I mean,
Katharine Huemoeller 59:13 that is true to the ancient sources, too. And that the way slavers thought about women was as a way to actually attach men to the estate to reduce the chances of rebellion. Women were thought of as like instruments in that way to you know, have control that men would be less likely to revolt if they have wives if they have children. Right. So the agricultural writers are very attuned to that dynamic. And I think that’s one reason that they don’t conceive of women as participating in the revolt because they’re supposed to be doing the opposite, right?
Dr Rad 59:47 Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 59:49 You were supposed to save us from a vote.
Dr Rad 59:53 Yeah, exactly. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Obviously, this could be an entire episode in itself because Varinia is endlessly fascinating, or the character of Spartacus, his wife is endlessly fascinating. She’s had many, many different names, and many, many iterations where she had no name at all.
Dr G 1:00:13 I suspect it’s probably a good time to wrap up. So we’ve got one final question. So when we were talking about you, in the introduction, we noted that you have a background that’s not just in academia, which is, you know, cool and interesting. You know, some people have a very straight path, and some people don’t. And so, you know, the paths into these sorts of things, I think, are really fascinating. And we’re interested in your work in the nonprofit sector, and also how that might have impacted the direction you took when you came back into academia?
Katharine Huemoeller 1:00:47 Yeah, absolutely. I left university unsure what I wanted to do. But knowing that I was passionate about reproductive justice in particular, and gender equity. And so I worked for a few years in the nonprofit world, working on contemporary issues. And it didn’t end up being what I wanted to do long term. But it definitely informed my interest in the ancient world. So when I decided to go back to graduate school, it took a little while before I could combine these interests, of course, you know, not in Greek lit survey so much. But eventually, when I got to, you know, choose my own research projects, I wanted to do something that touches on these these long issues of gender inequities, and in particular, reproductive injustice. And so I, I became really interested in Roman slavery, and the path and currently I’m most interested in particular in the hereditary nature of Roman slavery, and the fact that it goes through the maternal line. And I’m interested in how that shapes the experiences of enslaved women, what kinds of sexual and reproductive exploitation that leads to. That’s why I’m so fascinated by for example, right? That this idea that in the movie, Spartacus is supposed to be born of an enslaved woman that’s like the opening lines of the 1960 movie, right? Or is that a woman I think it’s something like a woman gave birth to a child, and that increased her masters a state and that child was Spartacus. And, and you know that it’s fascinating to me that that’s in this movie, because that’s actually not really in the scholarship. We don’t we don’t talk that much about the importance of maternal dissent in slavery. So that’s absolutely shaped by my experience in the nonprofit world. And by thinking about how legal systems shape inequities in society, and and also what people do within, you know, the actors within legal systems, how to slavers, choose slaving strategies, knowing that women will bear enslaved children.
Dr G 1:02:50 It’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because just thinking about what you’re saying at the moment about the maternal line, because we know that’s the easiest way to measure a line. And it’s like, you know, a woman grows, and then all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, yeah, and there’s a cord attached for a little while. You’re like, yep, that that one definitely came from me. Exactly. Yeah.
Katharine Huemoeller 1:03:10 In Roman law, it’s the the only the mother is ever truly known.
Dr G 1:03:16 Yeah, exactly. And so it’s like, it’s like, there’s never really any doubt about the mother, and yet Roman society and many, so societies, like from a Western perspective that sort of grown out from that, a very patriarchal, they’re like, No, we’ve always got to know who the dude is. And it’s like, do though, because it’s like, really easy, really easy if we just decided that the
Dr Rad 1:03:36 difficult thing,
Katharine Huemoeller 1:03:37 Yeah, that’s why they’re so anxious about protecting about women’s chastity, right? Because that is the way so for Roman citizens status is transmitted through the line of the Father, and that creates paternal power and, and legitimate air. And so for anyone who’s not a citizen, including enslaved people, but not only enslaved people, which status transmitted through the mother, but that, you know, that is what comparatively looking at slavery over time and space. That’s not the only pattern of transmission. It’s the one that was used during the TransAtlantic slave system, slave trade. And so it’s one that’s very, I think, present in most of our minds, but actually, sometimes status is passed through the parent of highest status, or lowest status, or whatever household they’re in, or there’s lots of possible patterns of status transmission, and they all had rippling effects on the experience of being enslaved. Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 1:04:31 I think it’s really fascinating because it’s kind of like there is always in operation, a two tiered system where there is the perceived status quo of patriarchy as like the right way from for being free and things like this. And then there’s all of the other systems that will fall under that which can be classified within slave strategies, and to see that the maternal line comes out so free Currently there and I was like, Oh, guys, you know, the real answer here is just, you know, patriarchy, maybe you could put that to the side a little bit, and you make it really easy for yourselves. But it obviously goes against something that’s really quite ingrained in Roman society and how they understand themselves, it’s just not possible for them to do something like that.
Katharine Huemoeller 1:05:18 Yeah. And what’s so what’s so interesting about it is that they see transmission to the maternal line as what is natural, that’s part of the you scan to my natural law, that’s what everyone does. But what Roman citizens do, right, the special privilege of Roman citizens is to have status transmitted through the Father. So that is like wrapped up in what it means to be a citizen and what and all these you know, special, this special treatment and special privileges you get with being a citizen, that’s a key one, it’s this transmission through the Father. And that’s kind of like, unnatural, it’s like part of Roman Civil lots, you know?
Dr G 1:05:53 Yeah, yeah. And it is obviously built into the all of the sort of adoption laws that are at play within the elite classes as well, where it’s like, well, we can we can rearrange your male line a little bit to make things a little bit easier here. And that’s sort of on theory legal.
Katharine Huemoeller 1:06:10 Exactly. But I mean, getting back to that, remember that crazy revolt at Volsini right, the idea that the slaves are, you know, wanting to reform the system of inheritance, like, to me that speaks to the significance of status transmission, right, this idea that, like they can decide who their heirs will be. That’s, you know, that is a privilege of, again, we’re two’s to Roman citizen masculinity. That’s, it’s just kind of wrapped in everywhere you look, all of a sudden you see it significance, I think,
Dr Rad 1:06:40 I guess it must be particularly interesting for you to be considering these issues at the moment, given the recent developments, which have been highly publicised all over the world in terms of control over reproductive rights in America.
Katharine Huemoeller 1:06:53 Yeah, absolutely. This, I would say that my present day informs this work in many different ways and informs my work because while I’m been writing this book, I’ve had two children. And so I’ve thought a lot about what it means to be a mother, how we can, you know, think about that over time and space, what reproduction looks like in different political contexts. Now, being in Canada, I’m in a very different political context than how I grew up. In the US. I’m very relieved not to be there right now, with the current climate and the current loss of reproductive autonomy for women* there, it’s hard for me to imagine myself being there or putting my children, my two daughters there, right, bringing them there. And so that all of that informed the way I look at the past. [* Dr. Huemoeller wishes to make a correction to what she said during the recording: people of all genders, not only women, are being stripped of reproductive autonomy in the US.]
Dr Rad 1:07:45 Definitely, well, we might wrap up on that note, but we hope very much that by the time we talk to you the next time because I’m sure that our research interests will cross paths again, that maybe the situation let’s call it over there has changed so that people have more rights rather than less.
Dr G 1:08:02 Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. We really appreciate it and such a fascinating topic of conversation.
Katharine Huemoeller 1:08:08 Thank you.
Dr Rad 1:08:09 Absolutely. Before we before we sign off, would you like to say anything about publications or where people can find you and your work?
Katharine Huemoeller 1:08:17 The best place to find me would be at my university website. So University of British Columbia, and you can search my name. I have a few recent articles out on these topics, if you’re interested in one that’s I think, particularly accessible is in the Journal of Roman studies. And it follows one woman’s story, one woman who was enslaved and then freed to marry her owner, and then ended up leaving him of sort of form of rebellion and was cursed for it. So it’s a really interesting personal story that I think helps you maybe sort of connect on an emotional level to the past, so that would be the one I would I would recommend.
Dr Rad 1:08:54 Well, I think we’ve got our next podcast collaboration topic. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Katharine Huemoeller 1:08:59 Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 132 – The White Album
Dec 15, 2022
We leave behind the outraged censors of 434 BCE and move forward into some troubled domestic times for Rome. The solution? Fashion, darling. White togas are out, so we suggest you find something appropriate to wear for this one.
Episode 132 – The White Album
Problems Plague the Romans
433 BCE begins like many other years: irate tribunes, obstinate patricians. However, political disputes come to a screeching halt when an epidemic breaks out. How will Rome handle this crisis? The past decade has not been easy, and now a plague? Perhaps a temple will solve everything.
Image of the remains of the Temple of Apollo Medicus Sosianus. Courtesy of Anthony Majanlahti via Flickr.
The White Album
In 432 BCE, the tribunes of the plebs are feeling well enough to start complaining. Why have no plebeians been elected to office? They pushed for the creation of military tribunes with consular power so that plebeians could hold the most elite positions in the state, but no one is electing them into power.
The tribunes decide to put forward a law that would ban the wearing of the toga candida. This garment was an especially white toga, worn by those seeking political office. This is an odd move so early in the Republic, but Livy assures us that the law was passed.
Is the banning of white togas enough to get a plebeian into power? Join us to find out!
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Fesliyan Studios, Orange Free Sounds and BBC Sound Effects. Thanks to the highly talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Where can you buy our book?
We’re thrilled to announce that we have a written a book together!
We delve into the history, myth, and complexities of the ancient Roman kings. You can support our work and get a very cool ancient Roman history book in return by pre-ordering a copy of Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome from the Highlands Press. Due for release in late January 2023.
Highlands Press is an independent publisher supporting historians and we’re excited to be pairing up with an indie producer for our debut book together.
This is the artefact unedited from the top of this post. Marble statue of a togatus (man wearing a toga), 1st century CE. While this sculpture is from a little later than the action of this episode, the draping of the toga gives us an insight into what the early republicans may have worn as well. Image courtesy of the Met Museum.
Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 00:34
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 00:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your host, Dr. AD and joining me in cyberspace. Ooh, woohoo.
Dr G 01:14
It’s me. It’s ducted Gee, yeah,
Dr Rad 01:17
uncharacteristically not recording together together.
Dr G 01:21
It does feel weird. Hopefully that doesn’t influence the way that anybody feels about our charisma together.
Dr Rad 01:27
Never. We are full of charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent. So Dr. G, the last time that we met, we had possibly one of the most confusing years to deal with. So let’s step back in time and do a brief recap of 434 BCE in ancient Roman history, but the fingers out the fingers, I don’t think a trigger to translate in the podcast media.
Dr G 01:54
It’s really disappointing. All right, I did my fingers to suggested we’ll go back in time, but you’ll just have to imagine that for yourselves listeners for 34 BCE, what a time to be alive. It was chaos, I have to say, That’s my summation
Dr Rad 02:08
in terms of who was a magistrate and who was not, it was very difficult to figure out because we had pretty much everything that the Romans could possibly throw at us. consoles,
Dr G 02:19
we had two pairs of consoles. So that’s a lot of consoles, way more than anybody needs. We had a set of military tributes with controller power, there was about three of those, and at least one dictator, maybe more dictators.
Dr Rad 02:34
We did indeed, it was very confusing. And there seems to be because there was a lot of chaos in terms of what was actually what the Romans were actually dealing with. Was there a threat from a neighbouring city wasn’t there. It all seemed to build up to something that never quite happened.
Dr G 02:54
And this also seems to tie into like broader issues that our sources our written sources are having with like dealing with the weird chronology that they’ve ended up with because they want every year to exist independently of each other, but they’re not sure where things started. And some of their calculations are now starting to crop up as mistake. Yeah, definitely. But certainly, there’s been some issues with the Etruscans. It didn’t seem to come too much last time, but it seems to be why we had so many magistrates. Yeah, there’s some issues and there’s this ongoing situation that Rome has at this stage with all of their neighbours, and there’s a lot of grumpiness, and there’s a lot of switching of sides. And Rome stamp sets feet and this year, it just has, like everybody had a turn. It was a carousel of magistrates. Everybody took a ride on the magisterial horse as it were,
Dr Rad 03:46
which is funny because of them were actually the Magister Equisetum
Dr G 03:52
Yeah. Gotta ride that horse. Somebody’s got to do it. We got a whole roll for
Dr Rad 03:57
that now. So master of the horse is the pattern there just in case you didn’t catch my excellent Latin. So with that in mind, the fact that 434 was building up to be something spectacular and then really fizzled out. I think it’s time to journey forward in our narrative history of ancient Rome into 433 Hopefully with livie and Dionysius our main sources by our side, but perhaps not
Dr G 04:24
Oh, you’ve got big dreams I have to die this is a harlequin so this is definitely missing.
Dr Rad 04:30
Yeah, well journey for which just leave you by our side onwards Libby.
Dr G 04:36
Libby is carrying a lot of weight
Dr Rad 05:00
I’m for 33 BC who are our magistrates this year? Dr. J.
Dr G 05:07
Look, as far as I can tell you, we’ve only got military tributes with concealer powder. That is what I have as well. But just your way I’m gonna tell you all about Yeah, like
Dr Rad 05:17
I’m here for it because I can see that one of them is a Fabian. Oh, fabulous.
Dr G 05:26
Fabulous Fabian. And yet, for me, not the most interesting of the three, but we’ll get into that. So we’ve got Marcus Fabius, some of Quintus, grandson of Marcus villainous a patrician previously consoling for 40 to be about 10 years. All right, it’s time for another tour around the block of power and then
Dr Rad 05:49
we’ve got a new name, which is a very unfortunate name. I’m gonna say
Dr G 05:53
I’m into this guy. I’m ready for it. This is my new favourite markers foliaceus Son of whoever grandson of whoever FLAC and
Dr Rad 06:03
I think for people to really capture how awful the name is. I think we need to say more more English so fascinator. I am the flat senator. I live ladies on satisfied all over the city.
Dr G 06:19
I find yourself last night. I love the way that you said we need to pronounce it more English and then immediately went into a German
Dr Rad 06:29
You had me this off. See the saucy Oh, I should Oh, I shouldn’t say too soft to see. Yeah, exactly.
Dr G 06:37
It was too much too much. One for the flag. inators right there. So the name flax and ADA. I looked into this because I loved it so much. And I had a good giggle. It comes from flax, EO to flag. So potentially this name could be interpreted as somebody who makes flags or somebody who puts up flags. Okay, somebody who flags things.
Dr Rad 07:01
I was gonna say, I don’t really associate the Romans with flags. I mean, like, yeah,
Dr G 07:05
family line is not going to last for very long. That’s the other spoiler that’s
Dr Rad 07:10
that’s even more puzzling, because I feel like flags would be more necessary later.
Dr G 07:16
Yes, but But I think maybe the sexual pun on Flesner. NATO was maybe too much for a Roman family to handle. And so they’ve left the name.
Dr Rad 07:25
Understandable. They are very big on masculinity. Yeah,
Dr G 07:29
yeah. And this, this doesn’t bode well for poor old markers now. And finally, we have Lucia circus, son of Gaius, grandson of guys for DNS previously consoler for 37. Yeah, I was
Dr Rad 07:44
gonna say now this is the guy that got the name from the whole conflict overfeeding a that colony, that treacherously turned to the Etruscans.
Dr G 07:54
Yeah, so this is interesting as well. So I did this is one of my rabbit holes for these episodes, it’s basically all they have is these three names, and nothing else. I started looking in to what’s going on with Roman names, because that’s always like part of how you can build a narrative out around them. And so we’ve got villainous, and this name is thought to be a topping mimic kind of cognomen. So it’s based on a place I was gonna say,
Dr Rad 08:23
I feel like I have heard something close to that before. And I don’t know whether it’s in the name or the place.
Dr G 08:30
Yeah, and to be honest, we’re not sure where the place that’s connected to this name would be located. Okay. So that’s a bit of a problem for us, Flack and NATO, we’ve already had that reference back to flat out. Yeah. And for DNS, as you know, is that connection to feed and a, which is this ancient sort of Latin city that the Romans have tried to claim for quite some time, entered into some negotiations with and have recently been in the bad books road because they threw their lot in with the Etruscans, which Rome was not satisfied about now. So we’ve got this sense that Rome is drawing in people from all around the local region, essentially. And that’s part of what we can say with these names.
Dr Rad 09:13
I’ve definitely not heard the name foliaceus before
Dr G 09:17
Yeah, and this seems to be a really small gains. I did a little bit of research on this one as well. So Marcus folios flax inator, as I like to call
Dr Rad 09:27
that if I can, I was gonna say please, yeah. This is one case where you do not want to drop the
Dr G 09:33
No no, I don’t the flax inator himself. He comes from against portfolios. This is a really small gains. It doesn’t produce many family lines, and we don’t know much about it. So it seems to not last beyond the early republic. So I’m fascinated to see if they come up again.
Dr Rad 09:49
I think I know why they didn’t last very long.
Dr G 09:54
Have you been have trouble keeping it up as it were? It’s hard to produce. It’s hard to continue the line when everything is So flat.
Dr Rad 10:02
Oh, I have to move on for this thing. All right. Well, I do have a little bit of detail for you about 433 Not a tonne, but I do have a little bit. So the tribunes of the plebs, they haven’t been super painful for some time. So they decided that for 33 is their moment to reassert their awfulness, at least, I believe, at least as far as Patricia narratives are concerned. So basically, they are blocking consular elections from happening. They’re absolutely adamant that it’s not going to happen. And they were being such an obstacle that the Romans were close to having to move to an interregnum. Now there’s a word I didn’t think I’d say at this point in the Republic.
Dr G 10:48
Is that even something that you can do if you’re not planning to hire a king?
Dr Rad 10:52
I guess I mean, I guess it’s that idea of, you know, not having someone holding that ultimate magisterial power.
Dr G 11:01
We’re unable to run the elections in time. And now we need a holding pattern until we can get the elections off the ground.
Dr Rad 11:07
I mean, and maybe it was just, I mean, look, this could just be living here. I mean, let’s face it. But it could also be the fact that they kind of know that this is, this is something that’s an option, I guess. They’re kind of like, well, we need to have something happening somewhere. We can’t have consoles, or we don’t want to have military attributes with constantly power, then this is really our only way out of this situation without having again. So maybe that maybe it’s that anywho as you might suspect, eventually it turns to military treatments with consular power. So that’s why we have those three guys with a spectacular array of names. The aim being that they would obviously be a poor being elected. I mean, presumably, that’s why the tribunes are being so painful, and trying to make sure that it’s not consoles, because they want to finally get a plug in, in office strategy. But then, once again, they’re all freaking patricians.
Dr G 12:10
I was gonna say, I mean, if that was the goal, surely they’ve been watered because every man on this list of military tributes with Coachella power is a patrician i
Dr Rad 12:19
there and it always seems to obviously, add some sort of justification to this idea that the plebeians really aren’t equipped to do the job. And the and the plebeians themselves know it, because they’re not voting for them. Apparently, they Well,
Dr G 12:36
I don’t know, I don’t think they ever get a real chance to to be honest, we know the voting system is pretty rigged in a chip room.
Dr Rad 12:42
It is and this is actually but I think that in in the way that it’s represented the way that live he throws out these little comments every now and then it is like the plebeians themselves aren’t voting for plebeians, that they are acknowledging the patricians to be superior candidates not in this case, specifically doesn’t specifically say that about this case, but in previous elections, this is kind of what he’s intimated.
Dr G 13:04
It’s really Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because I feel like I mean, Libby is not a Roman is he’s have? Well, I’m just I’m just trying to put this into context. You know, he’s not from a bit of, yeah, he’s not from Rome. He’s a bit of an outsider, he probably considers himself to be sort of like Romanesque in particular ways. Like obviously, HE SPEAKS LATIN and things like that. But it’s not like he is of the elite. And his investment in the elite narrative is really quite interesting to me. Well, he
Dr Rad 13:34
does hang out with Agasa. So yeah,
Dr G 13:37
yeah, maybe I should go back in time as Livi.
Dr Rad 13:40
Well, it would definitely be a way of getting an end with the imperial family, and you’d get to help Claudius with his history. So Oh, I like history. Yeah, exactly. Any. Now this is, obviously you’re shaping up to be yet another chapter in this so called conflict of the orders, which is apparently plaguing room throughout the centuries. But as luck would have it, an epidemic breaks out. And everyone’s very distracted.
Dr G 14:05
Wow. I mean, there’s a you just have so much more detail. I mean, when I have no source material, I’m really just excited to see where the story goes. I’m like, really an epidemic, no hints at
Dr Rad 14:14
all. And even better than that, they decided that they’re going to give a temple to Apolo because of his association, obviously, with, you know, like plague and medicine and that kind of stuff. Now, it’s a little tricky to verify this archaeologically, apparently, in that this temple, if it did, indeed exist at this time, was subsequently damaged in later attacks by people from the Gaulish ethnicity. Oh, yeah. And it’s not until later that it’s actually restored. But we’re talking about a location somewhere between the circus, Flaminia us and the forum. Holy Torian. Yeah, which is At this time outside if the primary and because a polar is not a room and God,
Dr G 15:07
per se, I was gonna say, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,
Dr Rad 15:09
absolutely. So there is some Archaea there are some archaeological remains, but none that can verify going back this early with this particular cult. However, the name associated with this particular Temple is apparently a polo Medicus, which does seem to indicate that it was a health concern.
Dr G 15:35
Yeah, they’re definitely leaning into being like, it’s not just any version of Apollo that we need to satisfy right now in order to deal with this plague. It is literally medical Apollo, please, please solve this for us put
Dr Rad 15:47
away the sunshine pal. Get out your medical kit, something along those lines. So yes, that’s just a little side note. So this all came about? Because do Unviersity or the two men consulted the civil line books? So there’s an amazing collection that the Romans have various tidbits or calls, what have you, where they could have had a lot more, but they destroyed a lot because one of the Kings was being a little bit difficult about the price and haggling and not doing very well. But anyway, they consulted these books of prophecy, to try and figure out how indeed, they could appease the gods, because of course, that’s the explanation for a plague of this magnitude. And this is obviously where we get the erection of a temple of like, this is the solution to our problem. And it’s possible that the cult came from Koumei. So maybe, sir,
Dr G 16:41
okay, the Apollo came from Kuma Yeah, okay. Oh, that’s an interesting sort of parallel because isn’t that where the some of the symbols are as well?
Dr Rad 16:50
I think so. IB is definitely in that magnet Croatia kind of area, isn’t it? Yeah. Anywho. Unfortunately, the temple didn’t quite do the trick. And many people still died. Yeah.
Dr G 17:05
Look, I mean, I’ll put forward Well, I think is like the most reasonable question in these kinds of situations, because this kind of thing is going to happen a lot in ancient Rome, where stuff goes wrong, and they’re like, You know what, we need a new temple to the gods. But when it’s the midst of a plague, or a pestilence, who actually is healthy enough to engage in the building project, and I suspect that what might be happening here is that they make the official dedication for the space where they’re gonna build it, yes. And maybe hope for the best that things will clear up so that they can actually finish the projects, because they’re all quite ill right now. And they need some help.
Dr Rad 17:43
You are correct. It was in fact, dedicated for 31. So sometime after 433, yeah, because basically, many people are dying, it doesn’t seem to matter. If you’re in the city or the country, you’re equally likely to get sick and die from this particular plague. And it was something that was affecting cattle as well as humans.
Dr G 18:03
This sounds like one of those ones that’s been doing the rounds for a little while, because this does not sound surprising from other plagues that we’ve talked about in recent time now.
Dr Rad 18:12
Well, we aren’t we we know. And we’ve seen obviously, in our own times, that when people live in close contact with animals, there are going to be diseases that transfer from one to the other. Eventually, it’s just going to happen, particularly if you don’t respect the relationship that humans perhaps should have with the natural environment. But they’re not saying that they brought it on themselves. I think this is just one of those things. But yeah,
Dr G 18:41
ouch row.
Dr Rad 18:43
That was more commentary on our own time than in Roman times. They don’t understand how disease works in quite the same complexity. So
Dr G 18:51
no, no, fair enough.
Dr Rad 18:52
Now, of course, as often happens with a plague, and you’ve got so many people dying, and people are dying all over the place, not just in the city, there is a genuine concern that this is going to lead to a food shortage because, of course, farmers are amongst the sick and amongst the dead. So the Romans start, they start searching for grey and then trying to be proactive. We’ve seen what happens when they’re not. A few years ago, we had a bit of a disaster where we ended up having a nacho King, and that nobody wants that again. Doritos have pulled this sponsorship. We don’t want this to happen again.
Dr G 19:26
No more of those upstart plebeians do a good job on the grade supply. We can’t have that. So
Dr Rad 19:31
they’re searching around in various areas like Etruria, the pump teen District, which is possibly near the old skins Koumei again, and Sicily looking for corn,
Dr G 19:43
the breadbasket as it were,
Dr Rad 19:45
and this is kind of where the year wraps up, to be honest, because everyone’s kind of in a bit of a low point. So there’s no debate about who’s going to be in charge for Are they just like, You know what, let’s just stick with military Tribune’s with consular power seems to leave Is hassle for everyone. Nobody has the energy to get into a massive fight at this point in time.
Dr G 20:06
Although it is interesting that up until now we’ve been seeing the military tribunes with consular power coming in, when there seems to be a situation where Rome is navigating problems on multiple fronts. Like they’ve got issues with many of their neighbours, and they’re like, We need more than just consoles, we need more people who can lead with Imperium.
Dr Rad 20:28
I’ll agree and agree. I think this is just more evidence that this is not necessarily actually to do with the struggle of the artists.
Dr G 20:36
Oh, yeah, definitely. And also that maybe the whole shift in focus across the year has gone from like, let’s deal with everybody who we can’t stand around us right now to Oh no, it’s a plague.
Dr Rad 20:48
It’s when placates that you realise how much you depend on your neighbours?
Dr G 20:52
Yeah, I don’t know if the pontine marshes are going to really produce great and every time they so they’re fighting with the volsky like every five years like come on, guys.
Dr Rad 21:02
Hey, you guys are looking for corn where you can find it.
Dr G 21:07
Is it here?
Dr Rad 21:09
Alright, so that takes us into 432 in my account
Dr G 21:14
All right. All right. I’ll turn over my notes for 32 guest who’s missing for this year consoles die and SES and pelican.
Dr Rad 21:23
Yes, yes, of course, of course. Data disappearing acts but nonetheless, I feel like you’re going to tell me who the magistrates ah,
Dr G 21:31
I definitely will and I’ll go into their names because that’s that’s my current rabbit hole of choice. When I have no information, we have military champions with concealer power. There are three of them. We start with Lucia Pienaar. Yes, Malmo Cenas. And again, possibly Rufus as well in there. So mammas scenesse is considered to be one of these names that is derived from the maracas,
Dr Rad 22:03
which makes sense because I’m pretty sure we had a guy that had both those names, or maybe they switched interchangeably between names, but I remember struggling with both.
Dr G 22:12
It’s possible. The source that I was reading, the scholar I was reading today about this kind of stuff seems to classify messiness as one of those sorts of additional endings. The I notice ending as part of the denotation of being adopted.
Dr Rad 22:28
And of course,
Dr G 22:31
but to be clear, we’re talking about the adoption from the members family. Yes, it’s so it’s representing that this was their birth family like
Dr Rad 22:42
Gaius Octavius became Octavia Arness once he was adopted.
Dr G 22:47
Yes. So it’s like this reference back to his birth family and just letting you know he’s sitting in a different family now but this is where he actually came from.
Dr Rad 22:54
And that is a reference to Augustus just in case you guys aren’t super familiar with all Augustus as many identities
Dr G 23:01
which is fair enough, you know, you had a lot you had a lot and Merck is going further down this rabbit hole Merkers itself is actually an Austin pronoun or pray pray Newman, I should say. It starts out in Austin as a pre Newman and then shifts into a cognomen when it comes into Latin.
Dr Rad 23:19
Interesting. Okay, well, that makes sense. We know that the Romans had actually quite a decent amount of contact with the Oscars.
Dr G 23:25
That’s my little colour for the first character. So that’s Lucia Spinnery. Usman members seen us Rufus. A Patricia. Guy number one. Military Tribune with constant power number two, Lucia is furious. Yeah, son of spurious, fury. grand son of somebody, Mel de Linus fuses, also a patrician. So midday, Linus, I hear you ask the question. I’m here to help. Don’t worry. I’ve
Dr Rad 24:00
actually mentioned this name before, I’m pretty sure.
Dr G 24:02
Yeah, this is I think, I think we’ve come across a couple of these guys. This is a cognomen that is also derived from place. So it’s top endemic in nature. And it’s a reference to medulla them or medulla Jung, which is at place a little city north of the NAO River, and also near to Alba longa. So it’s sort of, it’s really quite close to road when you sort of do the triangulation on all of those things. Yeah. exact location on. Excellent. And we also have spurious pursued miss. Albus red gel lenses. Okay. Our third patrician that’s a three out of three for Patricia Yeah, I’m not surprised. So Albus? You know you you know, you want to take a guess you know, you do.
Dr Rad 24:54
I gotta say it has something to do with Alba longer.
Dr G 24:58
I thought you’d go Harry Potter, but
Dr Rad 24:59
how Well, I’m trying to not mention Harry Potter.
Dr G 25:03
Fair enough. Fair enough. Albus here is sort of a reference to white hair. It seems
Dr Rad 25:09
like a collector JK Rowling in that respect in other respects,
Dr G 25:14
not in other respects. And read your lenses. Again another topic nimic cognomen. From Regulus the famous late Regulus which for anybody who’s forgotten sight of a great military victory for the Romans in 496 BCE, and
Dr Rad 25:32
I’m not surprised to have you mentioned this because the post steamy I were associated with that battle. Therefore, obviously, it makes sense that they have that as a cognomen. But also it is going to come up again in this in this episode, I think there’s gonna be
Dr G 25:49
Oh dear lord, it’s gonna be Yeah, oh, that’s gonna be a nice surprise for me that because literally all I have is these names and these ancient references back to me like who remember that time in 496, where they had a battle by a lake. So we think that Regulus is near modern for Scotty. So that’s that kind of hilly region to the south east of Rome. Right. Okay. Lovely spot. There’s a leak somewhere there that seems to be connected to this.
Dr Rad 26:18
Okay, cool. All right. Well, as tends to happen in the animalistic nature of our accounts. Now that we’re in a new year, Dr. G. It seems like the disease has started to ease up, play go wow, playground the last a year really?
Dr G 26:34
Oh, look, it just comes in 12 month waves guys. Yeah,
Dr Rad 26:37
I mean, like, it’s obviously still like lingering. But it’s definitely not as bad as it was in 433. So good times ahead. And because the Romans learnt from the episode with a natural King, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you’re gonna have to go back and check out that episode. They are boyscout prepared. No salmon boy. Yeah,
Dr G 26:57
they got the grain. They need it. Yeah,
Dr Rad 26:58
they’re totally fine. No famine. So all is looking well.
Dr G 27:03
Very nice. Very nice. It sounds like they’re off to a great start. Yes,
Dr Rad 27:06
indeed. However, as tends to happen, once things start to come together domestically, everything starts to fall apart externally. was. So there counsels being held amongst the vol skins and the aqueous. So yes, there’s ancient enemies of our magnificent city of Rome. And they are talking of war war, you say? Well, well, well, I know war is on the horizon, I’m
Dr G 27:35
afraid Oh, chat. We’re going to get them take down the Romans one by one. Yes,
Dr Rad 27:39
exactly. So it seems that they’ve decided that they’re going to postpone for a year, and that there’s going to be no counsel to meet again, before that date. We’re just going to put it off. But unfortunately, one of the participants from the trust fund side of things, they was not pleased with the decision not at all, because they felt they’re still very much at risk after the hill feed and airfare Don’t you know, Fair enough, fair enough, old chap and dead, so definitely was on the horizon. But for now, it seems to have passed. And therefore I will stop talking in this British accent. Even though it’s very hard to stop once you start.
Dr G 28:23
I think you should just do the whole episode like that. I think it’s good. Are you telling me Have I understood correctly that they is like I’m gonna pick up the slack for what’s the AKI in the volsky I getting together but not making a decision to actually go to war this year?
Dr Rad 28:38
Well, okay, so basically, the moleskin Za, Koreans have this council meeting and it seems to be held at the Shrine of full thomna. And this is where they’re talking about war, but they’re not ready for war just yet. The Etruscan seem to have joined them, at least in some capacity. As we know, the Etruscans are a very large group of people at this point in time. So I don’t know if everybody in Korea that’s part of this meeting, but certainly they are still feeling paranoid because even though I know it’s probably seems like a while ago, now that we were talking about the whole feed nothing it’s not that long ago, actually. And therefore, it’s only about a year and a bit ago, and so they just really nervous. They’re like, if I could take out feed now where next?
Dr G 29:24
We’re gonna fall like dominoes. That’s gonna be communism, or livery.
Dr Rad 29:27
Anyway, so yeah, basically, war is lingering in the background. But I digress. I need to return to room. So back in room, the attributes of the plebs, they’ve had to, you know, rein it in a little bit because of the whole plague thing. And particularly, nobody’s going to be interested in listening to them if they’re seeming agenda is just to gain more power for themselves, you know, or more accolades for themselves. But now, Dr. G, there seems to be peace. Ah,
Dr G 30:04
bring on the domestic chaos. Exactly.
Dr Rad 30:05
It’s time to strike the tribute and start having secret meetings at the houses of the tribunes of the plebs trying to keep everything very, very secret. They seemingly
Dr G 30:22
it’s made it into the history books, so they have not succeeded.
Dr Rad 30:26
That’s how you know you’ve really failed to keep a secret. If it’s recorded in a history, five hundreds,
Dr G 30:32
hundreds is Yeah, hundreds of years later, somebody noticed.
Dr Rad 30:36
Mostly their main issue seems to be that they’re very upset and aggravated because they feel like the plebeians don’t really respect them very much.
Dr G 30:47
Really, the tribune of the plebs don’t feel respected by the planet. Yes,
Dr Rad 30:50
because they keep getting military tributes with consular powers, like they’ve got that happening. And the last couple of years that has literally been the plan, and yet, no plebeians are being elected. See, I told you snarky little explanations from Livi about why there aren’t for the INS being elected. It’s not the fact that the system is literally stacked against them in terms of numbers, the way the votes are counted, and blah, blah, blah. No, no, it’s that the plebeians don’t respect their own kind.
Dr G 31:23
I say you can never be victorious when the enemy is coming from within. I don’t think though, that we’ve had a plebeian in this military tube unit.
Dr Rad 31:32
No, yeah, that’s their problem. That’s their problem. That’s the
Dr G 31:36
oh, well, no wonder there. And yeah, I mean, if I was a plebeian, I’d be outraged by now be like, Guys, you had one job, one job. But this
Dr Rad 31:44
is exactly this is what I mean about Levy’s explanation for why they haven’t been copied and selected tends to be that the patricians are just better candidates and the plebeians, therefore, vote for them, or whatever. And you can see it again here. The fact that the tribunes are being portrayed as being angry because the plebeians don’t respect them enough to get a puppy and magistrate elected, hello, doing not to remember the reforms of Servius Tullius. Back under days of the monarchy, the votes are counted, weirdly,
Dr G 32:18
they, they are. So like, just to give a quick overview of the weirdness of some of this vote counting structure, you’re basically put into groups that relate partly to your tribe. But then they’re also divided partly by your rank. And so what ends up happening is that you don’t all get to vote at once either you vote sequentially. And it’s not secret. It’s a secret ballot. Like many sorts of voting systems today, it’s all done in the open in sequence, and basically as first pass the post, so you only vote down to the point that there is a winner, and everybody can see you vote. So if you need to maintain certain networks, if you are being pressured in particular ways, if you got stuck in a dud voting group that you can’t get yourself out of one, you might not ever get to vote, because it’s never going to get down as far as you but also you need to show the right people that you’re voting the right way. And in this particular iteration of Roman history, as far as the latest sources like Libya and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, positioning it, the influences are wrestling with this patrician class. Absolutely. And it’s weird. Yeah, it’s weird, because we don’t. There’s lots of questions to be asked about, do we really have patricians right now, in like, you know, the fifth century BCE, we’re not sure. We don’t have good enough records to be able to, say one way or the other. But there does seem to be elite families and less elite families. And the tribune of the plebs is really working on the side of the people who are outside of the traditional elites.
Dr Rad 34:07
Yeah. And we can’t even say for certain that we really know how the voting works at this point of time, either. But I think it’s safe to say that the system seems to be rigged in favour of the powerful I know, either. Nobody was expecting that.
Dr G 34:25
We’re always fighting the same fight. That is the things who remember listeners, every generation of this, it’s always the same fight.
Dr Rad 34:32
Well, it actually reminds me if all we’re saying is true, which as I said, it might not be because there might be slight detail that have been lost over time or whatever, but it does give me strong vibes of like post Civil War America, you know, where technically, African American people have the right to vote, but because of systems of intimidation that are set up and because of power structures that have not been around advocated just because all of a sudden, African American people are no longer slaves but free. I mean, it’s still that idea of like voting being too intimidating for you to do, or people rigging it so that it’s difficult for you to do, or you having to behave a certain way to keep the power structures in your local area happy. I mean, it’s not the same. But that does remind me a little bit of that.
Dr G 35:24
Yeah, and I think for people living today, in certain areas of the US similar ideas would seem really resonant as well. There is a lot of issues around how you can vote, your freedom to vote, your capacity to get into the, into the spot where you can do it and your freedom to vote the way that you want to.
Dr Rad 35:45
Exactly, yeah. Whereas in Australia, it’s compulsory. So you have today there are
Dr G 35:50
pros and cons to that which we won’t go into right now.
Dr Rad 35:54
Any here now, not all the tributes are on this bandwagon, saying that it’s the plebeians fault for not having enough faith in them or whatever. That really is the patricians who are to blame, because they campaign so strongly for their own candidates, that the plebeians are swayed in their favour, because they’re either persuaded or threatened into voting for a patrician candidate, because they realise it’s in their best interests, either way to do so.
Dr G 36:28
I don’t know. I just think it’s a really nice guy.
Dr Rad 36:31
No, now this is something that’s very strange, but hang on for a second, and I’ll try and explain it. At this point. Apparently, the tribute is therefore suggested a lot, that no one should be allowed to whiten their toga to show themselves off to the public as a candidate. Now Livi mentioned specifically that there seems like a very inconsequential detail, but that it was a very, very bitter feud over this law at the time, and therefore he needs to mention it, because the tribune is apparently one, and they got this law. Now, for those of you who aren’t familiar with Roman fashion, this seems to be a reference to the toga Candida, which is where we get the word candidate from when we’re talking about political candidates or, you know, candidates for election. And the idea was that if you were running for magistracy, you would wear like a blindingly white toga so that everybody could see that you were indeed running for some sort of political position.
Dr G 37:33
I kind of love it. I mean, I don’t know what to say about robin fashion at this point. But I do love the idea that like, you can tell who’s up for the for the candidate to see by just how shining they are in the bright sunlight of robe.
Dr Rad 37:50
Yeah, I guess it’s like, again, like with everything in our society as well, your clothes kind of tell people I suppose a lot about you know, who you are, and the kind of message you’re trying to get out there. And I can see how it would be useful in a day before you have much media available to you that your physical presence could act as an advertisement, in that respect. So it seems that Levy’s explanation for this is that the plebeians were irritated enough that they would finally vote for a plebeian military tribute. And so, you know, the law has been passed that the bands are finally at the stage where they’re like, yes, it is time for a Colombian to take this office.
Dr G 38:34
Nobody can stop us from dying out togas white, and we’ll be out there casting around for the vote. Exactly.
Dr Rad 38:41
So the patrician stepped in and make sure that that is not an option, and that it’s going to be consoles for the next year. Classic. Yeah, exactly. Supposedly, this is necessary, because of the lingering conflict that I mentioned. With the aqueous and the vowel skins. The Latins and her nations rooms allies had let the Romans know that there was talk, they made it put it off for a year, but there was talk, and that therefore, was on the horizon. And therefore you have to have consoles.
Dr G 39:14
Right, which I mean, in a way, I don’t buy it. Because one, the military Tribune’s will conceal the power part of the whole point is their ability to navigate conflict, and lots of it. And it sounds like Rome has a lingering potential for war coming from both the south and the north, with the aqueous, the volsky in the south, and they as part of a trio in the north. So it’s not like things are looking good for Rome right now from a potential military perspective, but I suppose I mean, the consoles have done it for many years. So maybe it’s only war on two fronts, not three.
Dr Rad 39:57
Well, I don’t think anybody knows exactly what They’re facing but as you say, I think it’s more the fact that the consulship has apparently more of a pedigree, I suppose when it comes to this sort of thing. The military tribunes with consular power, they’re fairly new, you know, have they been tested? I mean, nobody starved to death during the plague years. But is that enough? Now, I should flag at this moment in time that not all academics accept that this is actually something that happened, that there was no way. I’m just liking it that was that actually a law against the whitening of cloves is unclear. We do not know for sure. Yeah, I mean, this is, again, we’re in this very hazy period in the 430s, as we’ve alluded to before, where it does seem like our sources are really struggling to make sense of whatever it is that they’re working with. They do seem to have some source material, but they’re struggling to make sense of it. They’re struggling to fill in the gaps. It’s possible that this is maybe some sort of misinterpretation about what had happened the year before, which had to do with the census. And this alphas of the sense or maybe it had something to do with that, perhaps and it or maybe it’s something to do with something to do with canvassing in some capacity. But yeah, some academics have definitely flagged that they just feel like this doesn’t fit, it doesn’t entirely make sense where it’s placed.
Dr G 41:30
Hmm. And it’s the sort of thing where it’s like this period, as well, it’s a bit tricky in terms of locking in any of the sequence of legislation. So we sort of, we don’t start to feel really confident as historians about that for quite some time ahead in that narrative from where we are right now. So it’s, everything’s a bit hazy. The other thing that I would mention here is that even for us as historians, we don’t have a lot to go on from our other types of evidence either. So we’ve got the festy, capital Aloni, capital, aleni, which are these like lists of magistrates, but actually, it’s not a complete record of it, they are damaged inscriptions. And this is one of the chunks of time that we’re missing that for as well. So we don’t even have ways to clarify by going to like, the P graphy. Necessarily, there might be scraps here and there. But we don’t have like a complete set to go to. And so there’s lots of sort of haziness. So the fact that we’ve got any stories at all for the last couple of years, it’s pretty incredible. Really, yeah,
Dr Rad 42:45
definitely. I think this is one of those time periods where not all academics, but some, some academics, see our sources, kind of trying to continue this narrative of the struggle of the orders, you know, as best they can, because that’s the overarching narrative that we’ve kind of got for this time period. But this particular example, for some people seems a bit out of place, it seems a bit early to have legislation and moves made against people that may be maybe getting above themselves in terms of the way that they’re canvassing political office and that kind of thing, so I can kind of see that.
Dr G 43:25
Look, there’s yeah, there’s a lot to take in with this. I think this is actually probably a pretty good place to wrap up this episode on white
Dr Rad 43:32
tigers. All right, very well, white tokers? Yeah. All right. That means that it’s time for the partial pick. All right, so the partial pick is where we wrap up and see how room has fared for the year or in this case, two years because they are quite short ones.
Dr G 43:54
Indeed, indeed. There is a potential for 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each ranked out of 10 Eagles. Our first is military clout.
Dr Rad 44:08
Hmm. I feel like it’s not much to say really. Military militaries military. Yes, exactly. Zero for me.
Dr G 44:19
Okay, well, that means we can swiftly move on to diplomacy.
Dr Rad 44:24
No.
Dr G 44:27
Well, they seem to have acquired enough grain to mean that they didn’t go into a famine. Surely there was some diplomatic things going on behind the scenes there,
Dr Rad 44:36
I guess. But I guess I see that as more commerce, you know, like, I don’t think they talked to them into giving the grain entirely. I think it was also the money that was talking.
Dr G 44:46
We would kill you next.
Dr Rad 44:49
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you’re right. Like I I’ll give them like a one. But if money’s involved, I don’t think it’s entirely diplomacy.
Dr G 44:57
I don’t think we have any idea where the money’s going. But maybe it is and maybe I don’t
Dr Rad 45:02
Well, yeah. I say I say money, but you know what I mean? Like, good. I trade whatever. But yes, yeah.
Dr G 45:08
Would you like this excellent wooden axe? Alright, so that leads us to our third category expansion.
Dr Rad 45:17
Oh, boy. Absolutely not. Nothing on zero. Yeah, nothing.
Dr G 45:24
All right. Weird to us.
Dr Rad 45:27
Again, I’m going to say no.
Dr G 45:30
Can we give them a negative score for the flaccid, NATO?
Dr Rad 45:36
I think we have to. So does that mean they lose their point?
Dr G 45:41
I think notionally one point be taken off for, for a name such
Dr Rad 45:45
as the flack and it already suffered enough.
Dr G 45:50
He’s lying does die out.
Dr Rad 45:52
All right, I’ll be nice. They can keep that point.
Dr G 45:55
All right. And the final category is the citizens score.
Dr Rad 45:59
Normally, normally, if Rome does not score well across the other categories, it actually means that the citizens are having a bit of a break. But not this.
Dr G 46:07
One. No. I mean, they seem to be really frustrated with the voting system are frustrated with getting their candidates into power. And I mean, suffering a plague doesn’t help.
Dr Rad 46:18
But I was gonna say it’s mostly the plague that disturbs me. I mean, it was bad enough that they needed a temple.
Dr G 46:23
Yes. And who has to build the temple? The Libyans, probably,
Dr Rad 46:28
I don’t think I don’t know that they actually are building it. Like literally at this moment. But certainly, the plague is obviously pretty bad. And it doesn’t matter how wealthy you are. disease strikes everyone.
Dr G 46:40
That’s true. That’s true. Okay, so that sounds like a bit of a zero as well. Yeah,
Dr Rad 46:43
I’m afraid we’re gonna end up on 150. And even that, one was given begrudgingly.
Dr G 46:53
Yeah, I really had to convince you to give that one row. You’ve really, really outdone yourself in the last couple of years. I think this is a sign that when we don’t have really good, strong, detailed source material to go off, there’s actually no way to judge whether Rome is doing well or not.
Dr Rad 47:11
Well, okay. Agreed. My Account of levy is very short. However, there is a bit of a sense of what’s going on. It’s just not good stuff.
Dr G 47:21
And I didn’t even mention that I’ve had Diodorus Siculus for both of these years, and he gives me nothing. So
Dr Rad 47:29
yeah, to be fair, though, I was kind of imagining that we might do for 3342 and 431 in one year. So let me assure the listeners that for 31, things are going to pick up again, it’s not going to be quite simply.
Dr G 47:44
Oh yeah, no next episode, tune in because things are going to be on the up and up in 431. Believe me,
Dr Rad 47:50
definitely. So thank you so much, everyone for tuning in to hear all about the odd blankness of 433 and to VCE,
Dr G 48:01
you know, so blank that we’ve even dyed our togas more white than usual. You know
Dr Rad 48:06
what, though, I suppose if we’re going to be kind, if we look at 433 42 as being a bit late 2019 and 2020 Sorry, 2020 in 2021. It makes sense a pandemic really does put a dampener on your daily activities.
Dr G 48:24
It’s a real blow. Yeah.
Dr Rad 48:26
It’s hard to get anything done under those circumstances.
Dr G 48:29
Well, it has been a pleasure as always chatting with you doctor read and I look forward to next time.
Dr Rad 48:36
Indeed, I can’t wait to see what other vaguely medical names you have for me for the magistrates.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians, we’d like to send a special shout out to our Patreon supporters, Ensley, Joshua P and Austin, who all joined us around two years ago in 2020. Just around Christmas time, what a present. You too can become a patreon if you so desire if you love independent podcasting. In return, you receive special early access to our bonus episodes, and occasionally we make a bonus episode that’s just for Patreon is only However, if a monthly donation is not in your budget, you can always buy us a coffee on our cofee account and provide us with much needed energy. And finally, we are very excited to say that our first collaboration will be released early in 2023. That’s right, we wrote a book. If you would like to get a copy of Rex, the seven kings of room then please head to Highlands press we’ll have the link in the show notes and buy a copy to support not only an independent podcast but an independent publisher as well. So many good deeds going around. The sauces first episode can be found in the show notes on our website. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome
Episode 131 – Dictators by the Dozen
Nov 10, 2022
In this episode, we delve into the craziness of the mid-430s BCE. The Romans are feeling the pressure, so they order dictators by the dozen.
Episode 131 – Dictators by the Dozen
Freaking Fidenae
In 435 BCE the Romans are once more battling the Etruscans over the issue of Fidenae. Fidenae had once been a Roman colony, until they treacherously switched their allegiances to the city of Veii. They must have felt bold, because in 435 BCE they started pillaging Roman territory.
To add insult to serious injury, the people of Fidenae and Veii crossed the River Anio and set up camp near the Colline Gate. The Romans could not ignore such provocative behaviour, even if they were suffering through a pestilence. This was scary stuff! Time for dictator number one.
Quintius Servilius was appointed dictator and he wasted no time rallying forces. The Romans found themselves besieging the people of Fidenae. Hopefully, the dictator has some clever strategies up his sleeve…
A Total Train-wreck + Dictators
434 BCE is a year so confusing that even our sources can’t work it out. We have two sets of consuls, military tribunes with consular power, dictators, AND censors. What on earth is going on?
While it is difficult to be sure of the power dynamics in the city this year, there are definitely some interesting struggles going on in Rome.
Image courtesy of the University of Michigan Press
Our Players 435 BCE
Consuls
C. Iulius (-f. – n. Iullus?) (Pat) Cos. 447, 434?
L. (or Proc.) Verginius – f. – n. Tricostus (Pat)
Dictator
Q. Servilius P. f. Sp. n. Priscus Fidenas (Pat)
Master of the Horse
Postumus Aebutius – f. – n. Helva Cornicen (Pat) Cos 442
Censors
C. Furius – f. – n. Paculus Fusus (Pat) Cos 441, Mil. Tr. c.p. 426
M. Geganius M. f. – n. Macerinus (Pat) Cos. 447, 443, 437
Our Players 434 BCE
Consuls
434 BCE is a a busy year and there’s two sets of consuls!
C. Iulius – f. – n. Iullus (Pat) Cos. 447, 435
L. (or Proc.) Verginius – f. – n. Tricostus (Pat) Cos. 435
M. Manlius – f. – n. Capitolinus (Vulso?) (Pat)
Q. Sulpicius Ser.?f. – n. Camerinus Praetextatus (Pat)
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Ser. Cornelius – f. – n. Cossus (Pat)
M. Manlius P. f. – n. Capitolinus (Vulso?) (Pat)
Q. Sulpicius Ser.?f. – n. Camerinus Praetextatus (Pat)
Dictator
Mam. Aemilius M. f. – n. Mamercinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 438
Master of the Horse
A.Postumius – f. – n. Tubertus (Pat)
Our Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.36; Cicero Cato Maior De Senectute 16.56; Cicero Mil. 3.8; Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 12.1-4; Valerius Maximus 5.3.2g.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.21-24.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to BBC Sounds, Orange Free Sounds and Sound Bible for sound effects, and the glorious Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
While not strictly speaking a painting of a dictator, this painting certainly carries the mood of a single man in command of the Roman populace. William Holmes Sullivan Julius Caesar’, Act III, Scene 2, Marc Antony’s Oration, Royal Shakespeare Company Collection.
Automated Transcript
Generated by Otter AI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
dictator, consoles, people, patrician, rome, power, etruscans, censorship, detail, happening, military, livy, apparently, bit, year, city, point, historian, skins, son
The Delicious Legacy Podcast 00:01
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Dr Rad 01:02
Welcome to the partial historians,
Dr G 01:05
we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 01:09
Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 01:19
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 01:29
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 01:51
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historian’s. I am Dr. G,
Dr Rad 01:59
and die and Dr. Brad
Dr G 02:01
looking fabulous as usual.
Dr Rad 02:02
Give me such a nice compliment. And I always forget to give you names just because you’re just a naturally beautiful, I don’t think I need to see the camera can see you this time so they can see the truth.
Dr G 02:16
So we have been tracing rooms history from the foundation of the city that we have, and it’s been a wild ride so far. And it’s only gonna get worse. I think we’re entering into this
Dr Rad 02:28
period. Wait, wait, we promised at the end of the previous episode that it was going to be better.
Dr G 02:34
Oh, like I can’t make any guarantees about what I may or may not have promised at the end of the last Samsung. I don’t know we’re entering into this period where we’re going to see more and more dictators. So I think you know, we’ve seen some already, but just you wait, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Yeah, we’re heading down that kind of half
Dr Rad 02:52
definitely. So to do a quick recap, Dr. g of where we’re at, in this journey of Rome, from the founding of the city, deep in the Roman Republic that we are, we just covered the year 436. And in 436, we saw quite a few things happening in my account. So a little bit of reading happening, but nothing too serious on the military front. And then you had some detail about some of the domestic occurrences
Dr G 03:17
that were going on. I did but I mean, my sources are pretty thin on the ground right now. And I feel like I’m not really building any sort of narrative momentum myself and sort of understanding what’s happening in this period. And it’s partly because my great friend, my soloists in hard times Dionysius of Halicarnassus, is music.
Dr Rad 03:34
Well, certainly what we saw in the bits that you put together and the bits that I had from levy was that there is seemingly another tribune of the plebs called spurious. Malleus will trying to seek vengeance or in his words, justice against the men who were involved in either murdering or triggering the murder of the regional spirits.
Dr G 04:00
I think it’s far more likely that spurious maelys came back from the dead.
Dr Rad 04:05
We’ll let the audience decide. But anyway, and so he seems to have been going after a holla or at least a house property because a holler of course is in exile and then also Manoukian is who was the prefect of the green? Who reported me aliases suppose and treachery doesn’t get very far though I don’t think because even though he’s got the name a pestilence breaks out. And also I don’t think people who were digging his his whole vibe
Dr G 04:34
Yeah. Which is weird. I feel like the narrative who’s not making a lot of sense right now
Dr Rad 04:39
look, I think it just goes to show that it is not the case that a rose by any other name. Well, I think you Shakespeare right, any so yeah, there’s a few things happening. Definitely the plague. I think it’s the most significant for 36 But I feel safe now saying that we can delve into For 35
Dr G 05:22
We have some consoles we have Gaius Julius okay. Yes son of grandson. Oh of question mark. Ooh, this question mark. So much is unknown, a patrician console for the second time previously console in 447.
Dr Rad 05:41
Definitely so fairly recent
Dr G 05:44
fairly recent. Yeah. Doesn’t stand out in my memory is significant. Maybe I forgotten something.
Dr Rad 05:49
Now that was that time period right after the for the second December when it was kind of a bit like, like there wasn’t a lot of detail. Yeah,
Dr G 05:57
okay. Yeah. And we also have Lucien or propolis. The guinea Yes. Son of grants on off, try Costas
Dr Rad 06:08
also a patrician. Also a protrusion. Definitely yeah. Gonna have some other night yesterday. So this year.
Dr G 06:16
We are out we are going to have some sensors, huh? So we’re going to have Gaius
Dr Rad 06:23
furious nice to return the fury AI
Dr G 06:28
pack Ulus versus patrician previously consoling 441 and Marcus Gurgaon is son of Marcus Massa Rhenus. Yes console many times 447 So with old mate Euless. 443 Yeah, and 437 only like a couple of years ago apparently
Dr Rad 06:53
made such an impression.
Dr G 06:55
And but wait, things get out of hand this year, who knew? There’s going to be a dictator.
Dr Rad 07:01
Wow. Dictators recently,
Dr G 07:07
not really giving that the Quintus Sebelius, son of Publius, grandson of spurious Priscus muddiness
Dr Rad 07:18
patrician, yeah.
Dr G 07:20
Yeah, the guy who captures for DNA,
Dr Rad 07:23
yes. And we’ve also got a dictator. And you know, you’ve also got to have a master of
Dr G 07:27
the horse. Everybody’s got to be in charge of Horses, Don’t They? Yeah. costumers a beauteous Hoover coolican. Sounds like he has Gordon’s I hope that’s not true for
Dr Rad 07:37
him. But there are so many Roman names which have medical connotations to me, but that’s probably because.
Dr G 07:46
Yes, yeah, infiltration of Latin into western medicine console of 442. So a lot of people that we’ve seen before in various guises. Now, back for some action. And I’m really excited for what you’re going to tell me about this year, because I have always literally nothing else. But this list of names.
Dr Rad 08:06
Well, look, I’m not gonna lie. This is the period. I think that’s probably the murkiest I’ve ever seen Big Core. I know, that way. It’s because there does seem to be a lot of blending of years in levies account, I don’t think it’s quite as clear cut as it usually is. So to be honest, we enforce anywhere. I mean, yes. That’s why
Dr G 08:29
I keep saying I think spirits Malleus could have just come back from the dead. So we don’t know what’s happening with this chronology right now.
Dr Rad 08:35
This is true. This is true. The chronology is all shutter Hill, I am dividing them up into 436 and 435. But it’s probably slightly arbitrary. I don’t know there seems to be a lot of blending going on here. Certainly, I think with the whole plague situation. This might be part of the problems, after all. Leary himself said it’s problematic period. In that last episode that we were we talked a lot about his
Dr G 09:01
song. Yeah, it’s troublesome. I mean, if everybody’s tick, who’s going to be writing up the fastI? And we’re like, guys are going to take leave?
Dr Rad 09:07
Good question. It’s good question. So anyway, so we’ve got our consoles to start off the obviously. So we’ve got our Gaius Reus. And we’ve got our looses the Guinness as consoles, the people of room are terrified. They’ve got a really big job on their hands. Now, as often happens when you’ve got domestic problems of this magnitude, nobody’s super concerned about campaigning outside of Roman territory at this point in time. So you may wonder, why am I saying that? Well, that’s because we’ve been dealing with these issues with the Etruscans for the last couple of years. And there’s question mark over the loyalties of a Roman colony, kidney. So I’m mentioning it in the sense that this is a time where that almost makes it backburner in the face of you know, worse. Exactly. So both the patricians and plebeians are happy. That is a peaceful time In Rome, because they got just oh, I don’t know, so much to deal with. However the people from feed may
Dr G 10:12
decide it’s time to make. They don’t have the plague.
Dr Rad 10:16
Well, I mean, that’s just Yeah, it is infectious disease. So there have been some people from you know, who all holed up in there, you know, in the mountains hiding behind their city walls and that sort of thing. They decide, clearly, this is a prime time to start pillaging Roman territory because the Romans just you know, keeping to themselves isolating
Dr G 10:42
maybe socially distant
Dr Rad 10:43
Yeah. Anyway, and so they summons people from they to you know, help them out. Oh, yeah. Then you allies. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, the Phyllis skins are not really interested in restarting the war at this point of time. Now they have been involved as allies in this conflict up until this point, we’ve mentioned them briefly.
Dr G 11:05
I have sought Yeah, I have some details on the full list.
Dr Rad 11:09
Okay, because I always I must admit, I really like their name for lists.
Dr G 11:12
Skins. Yeah, it is nice. It says it rolls off the tongue mostly
Dr Rad 11:16
that a classy
Dr G 11:19
Well, apparently the skins are a distinct people.
Dr Rad 11:23
I think so. Yeah, I think so they’re
Dr G 11:25
not they don’t consider themselves to be Latin, and they don’t consider themselves to be a Truscott. So they are from Northern Latin, like geographically speaking southern or TURia. So they kind of on this really sort of hazy border line between these two regions. Yeah. But they actually have a language, which is separate from both. Interesting. Yeah, so they have a capital city, which is thought to be on a tough spur. So tough is a type of stone on the eastern Monte Cimini. So for those who are like, wait a minute, let me get out my Italian maps, and sitting between two tributaries of the Tiber, the Macondo and the Faso majority of Maggiore, I should say, my Italian, correct, yeah. And so this is also known as the trust inside of the Tiber. So they’re right on this sort of river edge as well. They have a tradition that they’re founded by an algo of hero. So a great comes over a guy called how lesses and this is a story that often tells us in the fasting, and they also have a competing tradition that they have a child study and foundation. Okay, so different Greeks. Yeah. And despite the fact that they their language is separate and distinct, it is considered a dialect connected mostly to Latin, okay, rather than a trust gum.
Dr Rad 12:55
I’m suspicious. By Greeks.
Dr G 12:58
I mean, one should be suspicious. And the politicans throw in their lot with V. Yes. And, also, and then for DNA, what as that evolves there,
Dr Rad 13:09
but one at this point in time, yeah, in many ways, but anyway, but at this point in time, they’re not interested in taking part in anymore according to Livi, even though the airlines had like really good news, and also the fact that I think everybody knows that Rome is experiencing this pestilence. So even though they’ve seen like, the weak member of the herd, the flu skins not having it. Okay, so as a result, it is just the people of they and feeding me that ended up crossing over the Ania River and setting up their standards near the climb gate, one of the gates of room because it is surrounded by a wall.
Dr G 13:52
It is surrounded by the wall, the calling gate is if you’re in Rome, today, it’s near terminus station. Yes, it’s also where the Vestal virgins get buried.
Dr Rad 14:01
And it’s also where Crassus the guy who defeats Spartacus has one of his most notable military successes. Brandon fat is
Dr G 14:14
Yeah, famous gates. That’s the sort of quality content wherever you to this room, and Dave will
Dr Rad 14:19
come on in anyway. So of course, the people of Redmond are freaking out because people are
Dr G 14:25
at the gates of Rome. And they’re like, You know what, I haven’t been able to control my bell for weeks. Exactly. Not up to a battlefield confrontation.
Dr Rad 14:32
Exactly. It’s the last thing that you need when you have to play to have enemy camped right outside the gate. So as a result, console Julius Ulis, whatever, bring it into action that’s placing troops along the ramparts and the walls of Rome. Meanwhile, the other console we’re getting is is consulting with the Senate in the temple of queerness, which I believe is on the Rule Hill, funnily enough, don’t know. I’m just going to say it sounds reasonable. Yeah, exactly. All right now it’s at this point in time, obviously. Tough times. What do you need if you’re in a tough time? I take
Dr G 15:14
Oh, dictator. Yeah, it’s time for a dictator. You know what would be good right now? Somebody to take charge?
Dr Rad 15:19
Exactly. Yes. So this is where we have quinti as Sir William this question marks around the rest of his name being made dictator. Now we’re getting us is feeling a little awkward at this point in time because his his colleague is not there to consult about this suggestion. Okay, so he wants to discuss it. She’s very sweet. And Ulis Ulis gives his consent dictator is officially named and he then gets to choose his master of the horse, his little lieutenancy type person. And that is of course one customers a booty is helva who is chosen. So the dictator Sebelius he also springs into action. There is no time to be lost. He orders everyone to assemble outside the Colin gate at dawn.
Dr G 16:08
Get there? Yeah, we will face the enemy directly. Absolutely.
Dr Rad 16:11
Anyone who is capable of fighting needs to show up now.
Dr G 16:17
Just drag yourself out of bed. I don’t care if you agreed about the gills.
Dr Rad 16:21
I was gonna say there’s a question about the definition of this. Because normally I would say that probably involves most of the men in the population. At this point in time,
Dr G 16:30
dear Marsha, I wrote to you from Bostick, Ben where I’ve just
Dr Rad 16:36
was usually Lucretia
Dr G 16:39
not in this case. He’s just like this.
Dr Rad 16:44
Dear Lucretia. I write to you from Asik to do well to fat
Dr G 16:52
the order has just come through that we must be at the gate if we’re able to fight but I can’t I can’t even keep myself up rat for any length of time. Will you go to my place the creature will you fight for me?
Dr Rad 17:07
No you will not because that would be an abomination.
Dr G 17:10
Don’t you dare emasculate me but going out there you get
Dr Rad 17:14
even though I may be as sick as a little baby You are not to fight under any circumstances and you’re so rude. Anyway, so anyone who could fight supposed to show up at this point in time they remove the standards from the Treasury and they are brought to the dictator the enemy I presume notice that there is some activity in Rome itself and they withdraw to higher ground smart move always a good move in a military engagement to have the higher ground
Dr G 17:44
I have a detail about the standards if you’re interested why
Dr Rad 17:49
tell me about the standards
Dr G 17:50
yeah look for on Tinus and his Street hedge funds okay up to Section Eight subsections eight to nine on restoring morale but
Dr Rad 18:01
I’m liking where this is going Yeah,
Dr G 18:03
I had so little to add to this year but yeah, the standards is one of them. Hey, I will just read about it. This is hardware
Dr Rad 18:09
right here
Dr G 18:10
the dictator civilians Priscus yes having given the command to carry the standards of the Legions against the hostile for less guns ordered wait whoa is it just the feet are nicer with it
Dr Rad 18:25
for less guns? Yeah. Very emphatically said
Dr G 18:30
and yet reduce have this detail you know, I think that probably come up later. Yeah. Okay, I
Dr Rad 18:35
think this is showing the blending I retract by friends. I’ll come back to No not at all I would not put money on like me. I think that this just goes to show like the blending that’s happening. Yeah. All right. Anyway,
Dr G 18:47
all right. The standards of allegiance to be brought against the hostel for skins Yeah. The removal of the standards out does that put me in mind and I was like this is my time to shine but maybe it’s not Yeah. But he does this and then immediately orders the standard bearer for to be executed for hesitating to obey. So the first one is like the word now you won’t be you really want me to go the standards. It’s like kill that man. I’m the dictator kill that man. Wow, the rest coward by this example, advanced against the foe.
Dr Rad 19:21
Wow. Okay. Well, I mean that is your right as a dictator is it not? Yeah, to just execute someone on site. That’s the point of having a dictator they can make quick snap decisions which is really helpful when someone’s life is involved. Yeah, anyway, somebody’s
Dr G 19:35
life was involved.
Dr Rad 19:37
All right, well, any here so. So sorry.
Dr G 19:46
Not not trying to we wait for you.
Dr Rad 19:50
We really do. Anyway. So Willie is starts marching his Roman forces to meet the enemy and they end up meeting they meet, they ended up meeting up near no momentum, not in momentum. Need to mention I say that because momentum is no pot. So I just want to make that very, very much not involved yet. It’s also one of those interesting areas which is in Latin and apparently, neither say bye and frontier but it is Latin. Yeah. It has also been mentioned as being originally a colony of Alba. Oh, yeah. Interesting. I’m also throwing those details in there. So it’s also a colony of Alba along with your favourite named place. Crust you Mariam is great and fini. Of all places. It’s about four miles from the Tiber. Hmm, all right. Anyway, so battle ensues with the Etruscans and the rumours appearing to be able to hand because the trust can end up retreating. So really, this dictator that he is ends up pursuing the retreating foe, pushes them back into the city of Feeny, the Romans that of course, kick into siege mentality. Saturday mentality moving varies where they surround feed night with a rampart. So obviously some kind of temporary fence. Yeah, defensive or we’re not defensive in this case.
Dr G 21:28
Offensive more, I’m offended by that fence.
Dr Rad 21:30
Exactly. But unfortunately, they are unable to capture the city using scaling ladders. Classic siege technique, because feed a is apparently very well fortified. Huh? Yeah, you’d
Dr G 21:46
want to be after switching sides. Be like I’m ditching the Romans For the Etruscans for prepare the defence?
Dr Rad 21:53
Well, funny, you should say that actually, because there’s another thing to their defences, which is very impressive. They also aren’t going to be able to starve them out because they had plenty of corn. They were very well prepared. Oh, yeah. Maybe that’s
Dr G 22:09
why there was a grain shortage. Hoarding grain for years at this point be like we can hold up, still get some delicious something.
Dr Rad 22:19
Exactly. Got plenty of Doritos. They last forever, even when they say oh, they still taste
Dr G 22:24
good luck and do what you got to do when you’re hungry. Exactly.
Dr Rad 22:27
Now, this is a bit of a pickle. And it causes Sebelius to say, free viewing of the situation. At the third act Oliver in case any of you were fans of musical theatre? Anyway, he’s very familiar with the region. He’s got to rethink how everything is going. I mean, obviously, we’re not far from Rome. So I think most people are pretty familiar with the region. It’s not really like a kudos to him or anything like that. Anyway, but he decides that he’s going to attack cDNA in the on the father’s side of the city, because in this particular area, the way that the city is positioned, it’s I guess they felt when they were originally setting it up and setting up the defences that it didn’t really need to have as strong defences because naturally it was kind of
Dr G 23:15
got a natural defence. Yeah, like its element to it. And it also
Dr Rad 23:19
I guess, wouldn’t be maybe the most logical place for any attacking armies to
Dr G 23:23
launch their attack. Well, we wouldn’t want to accuse the Romans of logic now, would we?
Dr Rad 23:28
So he decides that what he’s going to do is another classic siege technique, which he’s going to start to drive a mine into the citadel of Finney. So I gather from that that what he’s probably doing is he’s digging under the fortifications.
Dr G 23:44
I have a real problem with the idea that they’re going to tunnel into somewhere
Dr Rad 23:48
Hey, did it they didn’t Castle
Dr G 23:51
Well yeah, but this I mean, this takes a long time that you get to be dictated for six months.
Dr Rad 23:55
Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on like, how substantial are the walls we’re talking about here? I mean, sure. It’s well fortified for 435 BCE. What is that?
Dr G 24:04
What is What does that even mean? I don’t think
Dr Rad 24:07
we should envision like a Lord of the Rings style castle at this point in time, which is very disappointing, but it is this is a technique that they do use in this sort of warfare I mean even think of World War One trenches they were battles for undergrad I’m
Dr G 24:21
not completely against it. I’m just a bit like I feel like logistically it’s just not the greatest strategy where there’s history Wait,
Dr Rad 24:29
you haven’t heard the whole Oh, okay so severely is also only dedicates part of his army to digging this oh, well, that’s good. Because Because because the rest of the army is going to maintain the siege in like an obvious place like hey, look at us besieging you. Okay. moustache 12 And so the people In the city are like, well, this is the
Dr G 25:01
attack. So that’s, that’s the siege. Exactly. They’re
Dr Rad 25:05
distracted by that. And therefore, they had no idea that they were being attacked by the sneaky mine into their Citadel until the city was already taken care of all the doubts that you like, but it works.
Dr G 25:19
According to Livy. Hey, all right,
Dr Rad 25:23
gets his information from Augustus Caesar. Thank you very much. And that should be good enough for you. Alrighty, what? Anyway, so, back in Rome, we forget about this very quickly. We’re back to the senses. Oh, yeah. So we’ve got our senses. This is apparently when they approve a public building the villa publica. Okay, which is set up in the Campus Martius. And it is in this year that the census was taken there for the first time. Now, I believe that this building, unfortunately, no longer remains. But we have a rough idea of what it looks like because it has appeared on some coins, I think.
Dr G 26:09
Okay, so this Philip publica is supposed to be the spot where the census is now conducted. It is like rock up to the Canopus marshes to be counted. Yeah,
Dr Rad 26:16
this is we need an official building. Hmm, yeah. Well, fair enough. Yeah. Now, this is again, one of those years where I’m like, is at the end of 4:35am. I blending into 434? I don’t really. I would, I would say that this is where I would end for 30.
Dr G 26:35
Okay, I do have some more details. Okay. You actually, it’s gonna seem a little bit odd, I think. But maybe it’s in keeping with the fact that we’re dealing with plague and pestilence. Yeah. But there is this idea that comes through in the scholarship. And I’m referring here to Wilson’s 2021 book, dictator, the evolution of the Roman dictator. What a handy volume to have on it seems like the thing to read when we’re heading into this kind of territory, yeah, but he talks about sort of Julius Priscus. dictator for this year. Yeah. As somebody who may be a candidate for being in a slightly religious position as dictator as well. Okay. There’s this idea of a nail driving dictator. And you might be like,
Dr Rad 27:23
what? Oh, he drives the nails into the walls of the temple. Right?
Dr G 27:27
Yeah. So driving some nails in?
Dr Rad 27:29
That was my hearing. I was like.
Dr G 27:34
Yeah, so this is a thing that is attested in certain cases. This idea of I’m going to quote a little passage from Livi. The Senate ordered that a dictator be named on account of there being a need for driving a nail. Okay. And this crops up later as well. Right. But it’s thought that potentially this idea of the nail driving ritual, pushing it into the door of the temple, yeah, is something that might be of interest and origin, right. which symbolises? I’m not sure. Okay. Yeah. Like, this is a detail that I haven’t I haven’t pursued in in its absolute form. So
Dr Rad 28:16
you know, I feel like that’s a question. I probably should know the answer to myself. I’ve just temporarily forgotten.
Dr G 28:22
I mean, yeah, man, maybe hold that space. And when I know what the templates are, I’ll just
Dr Rad 28:30
okay, sorry. Yeah. So,
Dr G 28:31
yeah, so this idea that somehow you can fix a problem? Yes, with iron and prayer. And it is also obviously has tangible sort of military connotations as well, because it’s been done by the dictator. Right. So there’s this odd sense coming through that we’re potentially in this early period of the dictatorship, right. Like many things in Rome, nothing is necessarily just political, everything is bound up in ritual process as well. And the relationship with the gods and the dictator doesn’t is no different from anybody else in that regard. In having to make sure that the gods are appeased. Oh, yeah.
Dr Rad 29:10
I mean, all magistrates. There’s always there’s religious connotations to their role and thinks that they have to carry it out in a religious capacity, even though they’re not holding like a priesthood or something. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Dr G 29:22
That’s that’s the only day No, I
Dr Rad 29:24
like it. I really liked it. Yeah, keen to can hear more about the temple. Alright, so does that mean we can pass now on to 434 430? Okay, 434 B, C, E. We got Dr. G, who’s the man History.
Dr G 30:00
Ah. Well, in the spirit of things being complicated there’s a lot of people involved. So it’s 434 BCE. Yeah, I’d love to tell you the dinosaurs. How can I ask this has returned to me but he has not. But we have two pairs of consoles. Awkward times already, frankly. The first pair will be the pair that gives their name to the year. Weirdly, that’s guys Julius. Oh us. patrician former console in 447. And last year. Yeah, and Lucia is all propolis we’re guineas. Try Costas patrician counselling for 35. If those names don’t sound familiar, I don’t know if anything ever well.
Dr Rad 30:47
This is this is the awkward thing about them being consoles, right? There is some there are some questions about can people hold the Consortium for two years in a row. But then again, it is early days in room.
Dr G 31:00
It is early days. And this seems to be something like something funny is going on. It seems for some reason they carry over maybe it’s because I’ve only completed Part of their term and the dictator has come in and gone but seems odd anyway,
Dr Rad 31:11
or maybe it’s kind of the military situation. Yeah. We’ll talk about that a bit more detail. A second pair. We do have a second pair.
Dr G 31:20
Marcus Manlius. Capital. Linus Russo. patrician. Yeah. And Quinta. So pikas, son of civilians, can marinas pride text Hodges, also a patrician, then we have some military children’s with cultural power so this year is a bit of a feels like a bit of a train wreck already two sets of consoles and some military trophies with Godzilla power and you like these guys, they’re not doing it for us, sweep them out, bring in somebody else. Then we get Sebelius Cornelius cosas Ooh, Patricia this Yes, Marcus mentally as Capitoline is also so seems to transition from being a console to being a military shooter with cultural power naturally, and also his companion. We just saw pickiest can Marino’s protests TARDIS. Wait a minute? Yeah. I mean, why would you listen to going on? Yeah. Why would you? It doesn’t make any sense. I’m not gonna pretend that this makes sense. If you’ve got a pair of consoles, and it’s working. Don’t change it. If you need a third person. Maybe just allocate one military tribunal or cultural power to join the two consoles. Why did they have to change their position? Nobody knows. It gets worse though. Yeah. We have a dictator.
Dr Rad 32:30
Of course. This is the trifecta. 434 at the trifecta,
Dr G 32:35
you can have it oh, just gotta keep putting people into power. Yeah, it’s Mercosur millions. Son of markets members are kindness.
Dr Rad 32:45
I always hate this name. Actually. I don’t like it. I mean, they’re messiness. I think we decided last time never seen
Dr G 32:51
us. Yeah, I guess it Yeah, I feel like with Latin is like, do I see your dog if
Dr Rad 32:57
it sounds very hip hop. I agree. Like the has is awkward to say. So I prefer my messiness. But it sounds like you know, most seniors, it’s house.
Dr G 33:07
Upper tuition. Yeah. They were a military tributing with consular power and for 38. Yeah. Appointed to face the threats of the fullest skins and the Etruscans. And also seems to be the person who limits the censorship to one and a half years
Dr Rad 33:23
spoil my story.
Dr G 33:27
Well, I don’t know how it happened, and how that comes about. And they appoint monster of the horse, earliest stimulus to Bertus to Plutus.
Dr Rad 33:39
I had no idea I was kind of like it. That’s a bit like not a fan of patrician sounds like rice potatoes. Anyway. Alright, so I do have some detail about this year. Now once again, Livi is actually telling me a little bit about his source material to try and explain the train wreck. That is this list of magistrates that we have here. So apparently, Dr. G, it is like hideous metre, or maker. I mean, it’s the saucy whatever. He’s the one that says there are same, the same consoles from 435 into 434. Sorry.
Dr G 34:15
Okay, so a source that’s reasonably closer than Livi is Yeah, and we’ve
Dr Rad 34:19
also we know that Libby cites this guy quite a lot. He’s obviously someone that Libby relies heavily on. However, we also have the larious anteus and Quintus to bairro sources.
Dr G 34:32
I did my study on these two, yeah, because I have nothing for this year.
Dr Rad 34:36
They say that it is markers Manlius and Quintas or piccies. And they apparently were drawing on linen rolls for their information. And we have mentioned the linen rolls before. They are literally rules made of linen, with records of magistrates, etc on them. But both say that all the historians had claimed Ain’t that these guys were, in fact, military tributes with consular power. It’s a confusing time it really is. Yeah, like any ice maker, he basically apparently very confident with his version of things. He’s just like, This is how it is. No questions to Barrow, however, apparently said that he was uncertain about what was the truth, like who consoles were their military treatments with consular power, who knows he was a bit more uncertain. Libya as a result is also in a total heat right now. Cannot make sense of it. And he says to you, you know what, this will have been a really long time ago, I get off my back
Dr G 35:39
doing the best that I can. resources I have available to me, let’s not get caught up in it. So I think one of the things to keep in mind when we’re thinking about Valeria is anteus. And alias Toubro is that we’re dealing with other writers from the first century BCE. So they’re writing a little bit earlier than Livi. But they’re writing in the same century as the beers. So there’s Mesa Mesa is a little bit earlier than that. And so these two only maybe know quite as much as we could possibly find out anyway. And their chances of getting hold of better material is pretty slim.
Dr Rad 36:15
I guess the thing is, we do know that whilst Livy gives us these little insights in his process, which make him seem like a decent historian, we know that he doesn’t often actually like leave his home to go and look at source material himself. So I guess it’s a question of we don’t really probably know very much about these guys. And whether they actually did they like travel around and look at, you know, lists of magistrates? Did they? You know, did they have other things? It’s they’re just a fragmentary, it’s hard to say,
Dr G 36:47
yeah, they are fragmentary. And we’re not really sure we have a little bit of detail. Yeah. Hilarious. anteus is listed as one of the younger analysts, which is quite cute. Nice. And he is thought to have only written after 50 BCE. De is very close to living. So and he’s worked goes from the foundation of the city. Yeah, the hypothetical to around about 91, which we have a fragment for. Okay. So covering a good stretch of time. Yeah. But yeah, because we’ve only got him in fragments. He wrote heaps, but we don’t have a lot of it. Yeah. And he was interested in, wait for it. He’s kind of like one of those sort of military ask historians, he’s super interested in, like, the distribution of troops in the provinces, things like that, and interested in colonies being founded and how omens are navigated. Right. So it’s all like sort of process driven in a way. It’s part of his focus. Yeah. Nice. Which is quite would be interesting to have more of
Dr Rad 37:56
it. Sounds like a bit of a loss. Yeah,
Dr G 37:59
it definitely is. And I think Likewise, with Ilyas Toubro. So he’s a jurist, Rand historian. Yes. And he is the son of luteus eylea. So to grow, who was also a historian, and also a friend of Cicero, so like, tomorrow is mixing in you know, some interesting circles, definitely he fought in the army of Pompey at for solace. Yeah, so you know, he’s got some experience. So he dedicates himself ultimately to jurisprudence, and historiography,
Dr Rad 38:35
okay.
Dr G 38:37
And so, this seems to be the thing that really drives his career is like, you know, being involved as a senator ultimately in Rome, but also publishing works, some of them judicial in nature, some of them historical in nature. So he has a 14 books that we know of Roman history from the Punic Wars at the very earliest, it seems, and it seems like he does become a source for others to use as well. But we don’t really know the substance of like, what he was trying to do with that work or like what his focus was necessarily, okay, such as the fragmentary nature of the source.
Dr Rad 39:15
Well, look, it’s comforting to know that levy was at least using multiple sources and comparing their accounts. So for those of you who think Libby is a bad historian
Dr G 39:28
I don’t think he’s gonna add his story and he’s doing the best you can
Dr Rad 39:32
because a lot of flack that you have to bid anywho so to return to what’s actually happening outside of I’d love to know what’s actually happening, quite actually. So the trust skins are obviously terrified because at the end of the previous year, the Romans have captured feeding the people ave a very worried that they might be next on the roomies list, and I think that’s probably a fair assumption. foreshadowing for sure. To make fortune. Now this is where the Phyllis skins come into my story. Okay, so
Dr G 40:04
the standard story again,
Dr Rad 40:08
you could apply here it could apply, hey, they’re feeling a bit guilty about the fact that they had technically backed out of an alliance you know they weren’t there in times of need and the city they and the solicitor has decided to send invoice around to the 12 cities in a true area. And what they want is they want to have this council proclaimed for all of the people in a tree out at the Shrine of full thomna Bolton now. Now the Roman Senate are worried that tensions are going to flare up again. And so they decide that they’re going to choose a dictator. Now that seems a little preemptive. I mean, sure, okay. You can see the Etruscans potentially rallying around
Dr G 40:49
shiver me timbers, my bones, something’s common a dictator? Yeah, it
Dr Rad 40:53
just seems a little you know, maybe they’re just getting into the habit of like a muscle reflex. You know what this needs? Yeah. So this is where we get Amelia is coming back into the story. And he chooses all this post genius to Virtus as his master of the horse, as we mentioned. So then we’ve got our Trifecta there. We’ve mentioned consoles, we’ve mentioned military champions with concealed power, and now we’ve got a dictator, the Romans are putting a lot of energy into getting ready for the war that is to come. And I can kind of again, understand if there’s potential for the Etruscans to unite, it’s not just going to be two cities that they’re facing. This is a more serious threat, for sure. However, things are not going to quite turn out the way that they’re anticipating. So I’m going to fizzle out quite quickly as it would turn out. So merchants end up reporting that the people have they had been refused assistance. So they’re, they’re not going to help out the people have they? Now, presumably, the reason why merchants are involved in this story at all, is because if all the cities are meeting together in a council, it might have become the scene for like a fair or like some trading or something like that.
Dr G 42:09
This is feels like the first time we’ve ever heard about merchants being involved in any of these.
Dr Rad 42:14
Honestly, I know specifically a thing anyway. And so their response the merchants is that you started this war all on your own, you’re going to have to use your own forces, and not drag other people into the Alliance. Because you know what, when you started the war, you were probably hoping that things are gonna go well for you. And you were doing all that on your own, and you’re probably gonna enjoy that success all by yourself. Now that you’re struggling, you want to share it around, you want to share around that struggle? No, thank you, you are fairweather friends. And we have no interest in pursuing this with you. You had no contact with us when everything was going? Well, it’s only when you’re down on your luck that you want to speak to us now. So it all kind of fizzles out is no bigger task and alliances happening. There is no war coming right at this moment. But we have a dictator, we do Hurrah. Now this is a thing mercurous He feels ripped off.
Dr G 43:13
But didn’t get what dictatorship?
Dr Rad 43:15
He wanted. He wants to do something meaningful with his dictatorship. So he decides, I know, I’ll do something that will benefit the city of Rome itself if I can’t conquer an external enemy. So this is where he decides the senses are becoming a little worrying things that need to be cut down to size, either because they hold too much power, or because they hold that power for too long pill. Danny, hi, no. So I would like to go into the details about the censorship in a sec. But let’s proceed with the narrative announced so he summons and assembly. And as the gods have seen fit to take care of rooms, enemies so kindly and made it all come to nothing. He wants to put forward this law that’s going to limit the censorship to a year and a half. And not a day more. Thank you very much. The law was passed the very next day because the people are like, yes, we are on board with this idea. You’re right. We want to limit the power. I wonder
Dr G 44:23
what we don’t know about the censorship in this early period, because this does seem to come out of almost nowhere. I agree.
Dr Rad 44:29
And that’s why I want to come back to that in a second. After this is past America, Sam lays down his dictatorship. The people are thrilled with him super thrilled that they walk him back to his door like it’s a first date. Everything’s going very well. It’s all very joy. He’s a very popular little champion. However, there are some people in Rome that are not so happy with the situation. And you’d be right if he gets it. Those people are the sense.
Dr G 44:58
I mean, I just got voted Didn’t I thought I was gonna have at least I don’t know, more than a year and a half to like, go around do my business. Yes. Got to build this building that’s going to take longer than this time. Yeah, so
Dr Rad 45:09
they’re furious. So in response, they remove members from his tribe.
Dr G 45:16
Oh, and lucky. Yeah. Okay.
Dr Rad 45:19
And I also increased his taxes eight times over. Wow, ouch, ouch, ouch. Okay, well, you
Dr G 45:27
can live with the power of the senses in some ways, but you didn’t think far enough ahead, members.
Dr Rad 45:32
So this means that he has lost the right to vote at this point,
Dr G 45:35
it was gonna say Sophie is removed from his tribe is he placed into a different tribe?
Dr Rad 45:40
I’m going to come back to that in just a moment. No.
Dr G 45:45
So this is making him a non citizen.
Dr Rad 45:47
Well, it’s a weird, it’s kind of like a weird Limbo land, in that he still pays taxes. But he’s lost a lot of the political rights that come with that, gee, it’s like being a woman in almost any period in history up until the last 100 years.
Dr G 46:03
Anyway, maybe we can turn America into an ally.
Dr Rad 46:06
Now America is apparently endures this all very well. I mean, this is quite the blow
Dr G 46:11
really rich. Eight times his usual tax rate. Come on. I mean, furious. Leave me alone.
Dr Rad 46:19
Exactly. Yeah. But look, he apparently is like, Look, I know where this is coming from. It’s coming from a place of hurt and trauma. And he doesn’t say, but he doesn’t understand why he’s being targeted this way. So he’s just like, I’m going to be going about it. Now, that patricians come into the story. The patricians are not actually happy with the Office of sensor being restricted.
Dr G 46:42
Well, of course not. I mean, it’s part of their purview.
Dr Rad 46:46
They are the ones that are sense. I
Dr G 46:47
mean, it is weird, because he’s kind of gone rogue, because we’re Marcus is a patrician himself. The weird part seems to be some sort of fractionalization going on here between the ones that get into the censorship and the ones that don’t well,
Dr Rad 46:59
I mean, we did talk to him being an ally. Maybe he’s one of these weird patricians that I know believes in equality. Maybe there’s other people like him so much, not a quality that’s too far out, I mean, more a quality, greater equality and getting close, but not too close. Anyway. However, they also are not impressed by the way that the censors have chosen to react to his
Dr G 47:24
the patricians is the patricians
Dr Rad 47:25
with a great yeah, not impressed by the home first by America is all the sensors that they just don’t
Dr G 47:31
like. And you know, what I’m annoyed, annoyed about this, this. And this,
Dr Rad 47:35
however, they kind of look at it is like a column a column B situation are pros and cons. They’re like, look, we know that we’re going to be living our lives under the power of the sensors for longer than any of us could ever possibly personally hold the office. And that is dangerous. Okay, what does that mean? Well, I guess it means that you’re always going to be under the, you’re gonna be under the power of multiple senses in your life, if you live a decent, okay,
Dr G 48:05
but you could only be sense of once at the very most, if you like, that’s the
Dr Rad 48:09
implication, or at least, if you hold the office, you’re only going to hold it for a set amount of time, you know, so I think that’s what it’s trying to say.
Dr G 48:21
But yeah, the legacy of the censorship exceeds those
Dr Rad 48:25
exactly the exact wording here because it is a little tricky. Maybe we’ll have a translation of it anyway, says, since each of them perceived that he should be subjected to the censor for a longer period and more frequently than he should hold the census office. They recognise the danger. I think that’s what it means. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so then, there’s, the people are completely outraged that America is being treated this way. And nobody could have stopped them at this point in time from attacking the senses, ripping them limb from limb, except Medicus. himself, of course, being very zen. Yeah. Now this is where so this is roughly where I think we come to the end of 434 BC. This is roughly where I thought it might be a good moment to pause and think about this position of sense. Because it was actually not that long ago, that we were talking about holding the census for the first time in a while. And yet, all of a sudden, here we
Dr G 49:30
are, and it’s now time for Census reform. Yeah.
Dr Rad 49:32
Now, as with all the offices that we talk about, in this early Republican period, if you ever look up the office of sensor, you will see the same thing, which is that the practice vary greatly in the early periods. It’s not as set in stone as it will become later on, where they you know, they hold it for for, you know, a limited amount of time they hold it, you know, this frequently, that sort of thing. So there’s definitely some variation happening here. However, the general gist of being a sensor. It’s not just all about data collection.
Dr G 50:04
Oh, that’s a real shame. Just
Dr Rad 50:07
when you thought we were about to get statistical weed out. Is it religious? Yeah, well, it the sensors job is to basically overlook the morals of the community. Okay, which is why I think the patricians feel the way that they do about, you know, a potential threat that this division holds. Which is funny, because it got created officially because the consoles didn’t want to do
Dr G 50:34
that, like I’m sick of this paperwork. Yeah. Create a new position for this bureaucracy.
Dr Rad 50:38
There’s a lesson in there somewhere, anyway. But basically, yes, at some point it they develop the capacity to, since you’re somebody I’m trying to over exaggerate my pronunciation of that. So it’s very clear, I’m not saying since so, since you love somebody, the idea being that if they did that, then someone would be removed from their tribe, and could potentially, therefore lose the right to vote, because that is how you vote in your tribe. But you still get the incredible pleasure of paying your taxes. Now, this is the this is the
Dr G 51:13
scenario taxation without representation. Exactly.
Dr Rad 51:17
But you presumably did something to deserve that punishment. So I guess it’s like, if we send people to prison, if you look at how historically we’ve treated criminals, sometimes they lose, you know, certain rights, not just freedom, but
Dr G 51:32
the censorship functions as a way of policing, essentially, who gets to do what, in particular areas of society?
Dr Rad 51:41
Yes, absolutely. Now, technically speaking, I think you could be placed in another tribe. But if they’re obviously removing you from your tribe, because you’ve done something wrong, that is,
Dr G 51:50
well, the idea that you could join another tribe, it’s not like, like, you should only be in your tribe, your tribe. So if they remove you from your tribe, your only options are really to go back into your tribe, when they agree that it’s okay to do so. So like, you can be like, Well, I’m just going to draw those guys over there. Like this is not your tribe.
Dr Rad 52:11
Yes, exactly. So that’s what we can see happening here in this situation. I think it’s definitely definitely the first case, we’ve come across this sort of thing happening now, eventually, not sure about at this point in time, maybe at this point in time. They also supervise membership of the Senate. So they also Yeah, police their behaviour and that sort of thing. This is
Dr G 52:33
something that the the senses are famous for, definitely, I’m not sure that we can really confirm one way or the other for that period.
Dr Rad 52:40
It seems unlikely to me that that would be the case, but just mentioning it, because you know, it’s part of the office, we might do a special episode on them later on. And they could also take the horse and status from equestrian. Oh, not the Bernese. So
Dr G 52:56
take Matilda, how do they get to battle now
Dr Rad 53:00
not like beauty, it’s a whole different story. And eventually, they will
Dr G 53:06
know Mr. Ed.
Dr Rad 53:10
Eventually, they’re going to recruit even more powwow where they’re involved in kind of business dealings for room. So they can also oversee the leasing of revenue producing public property like lands, forest and mines, they can also arrange for the collection of revenue, they could sell the right to collect taxes to the public colony, okay, not a popular group of people in Roman society, and do all sorts of things like that. And so they eventually will get all that kind of power. But again, at this point in time, I don’t think they have that kind of power, nor does room have quite the resources that would require this sort of thing. So this is, I think, a much later part of their role. Yeah,
Dr G 53:55
yeah. I think we’re seeing the stirrings of the what will become this kind of censorship with all of this kind of particular power? Yeah. Beginning to come into it’s for clearly there’s something the suggestion here is that there’s an overstepping of the expectation of what they would do. Yeah. And there’s an attempt to curtail that. Yeah. And so, and this is generally how rules develop anyway, it’s like people do something and you’re like, No, no, not that. Yeah. And then they put it on a stone being like, not that Yeah. And you’re like, oh, man, exactly.
Dr Rad 54:28
loves it. I always think if Augustus wanted to get his greedy little paws on the power of particular office, then they had something going on for it. And this is no exception.
Dr G 54:40
Oh, no. The censorship by the time we get to Augustus the censorship is incredibly powerful. Yeah. But yeah, what’s actually happening here in what for 34 BC. It’s a little bit more up for grabs, I think. Yeah. So
Dr Rad 54:53
I’m going to therefore close the curtains on another very confusing, mystifying Oh, yeah, in Rome’s history Goodbye, 434 and hello to the partial pick all right, Dr. G. So the partial pick is where we sum up. Howard has been tracking for the last year or two. They have five categories. Each category has 10 Golden Eagles up for grabs, meaning that they’re gonna get a score out of a total of
Dr G 55:29
50. Yeah. It’s a struggle. I mean, humanity’s for a reason. struggle is real. Okay. Okay. So row, I’m not anticipating a great score. But let’s see what happens. First category military cloud. Well, okay, actually, there was that whole siege and sneaky tunnel system. Yeah, that was pretty impressive. Absolutely. If you believe such tales, which I do. Read it in Libya, it must be true.
Dr Rad 56:00
Yes, it was. I think that’s gotta be what like a six baby? Well, I
Dr G 56:03
mean, just for the sheer effort involved and give them an aid. It’s like a total system like a mine under a wall to get into a citadel. Like, that’s not easy work while you’re keeping up the facade of a real siege at the front of this.
Dr Rad 56:17
It does make you wonder, given that people have been very ill with plague recently. How are they so many people that you can divert their attention? Is it just one guy throwing rocks?
Dr G 56:29
They’re fleeing the soft leavings that they’ve created along the way.
Dr Rad 56:35
Nice, nice, very elegantly phrase. Alright, so we’re gonna go with look, I think eight might be too much, I think, Okay, let’s go to seven.
Dr G 56:41
All right. 777 is okay. Our next category is diplomacy.
Dr Rad 56:47
Well, as we always say, There’s rarely diplomacy when there’s warfare in Rome. And I don’t think that there is really anything to talk about.
Dr G 56:56
It does seem like everybody was like, Don’t drag me into your mess. And then there was like, maybe we could limit the powers of the censorship. And they were like, No, we punish you. So it doesn’t seem like there’s anybody negotiating anything
Dr Rad 57:09
around here? Not really. So yeah, I’m gonna unfortunately, give them a zero for that. Yeah,
Dr G 57:13
I think that’s fair. Yeah, I agree. Next category is expansion.
Dr Rad 57:19
No.
Dr G 57:22
I mean, expanded out mines.
Dr Rad 57:23
Well, look, I mean, they have captured for DNA. This is true. However, cDNA was technically
Dr G 57:32
there’s typically they had already captured it. Yeah. Like a couple of years ago.
Dr Rad 57:36
Yeah. So look, I’ll give them a one. recapturing there. Okay. Yeah.
Dr G 57:42
All right. We’re tourists. Hmm, how much of a man? Are you ancient Rome? Let’s find out together?
Dr Rad 57:48
Well, I mean, there are some things going on here. I mean, we do have quite a number of dictators to choose from. does it amount to we to say this is yeah,
Dr G 57:57
lots of men in positions of power. How much we it was, I mean, it seems like Rome and chaos,
Dr Rad 58:02
not it. Whilst there are some clever ideas and that sort of thing. I don’t know that anything is quite at that level Americas
Dr G 58:09
is quite popular. And I wonder why that might be. And I’m not sure that we’ve received enough information to be really sure whether it’s from
Dr Rad 58:19
iCloud class traitor.
Dr G 58:21
I do love the class traitor. Join us in the working class. I
Dr Rad 58:25
have no idea honestly, what he’s up to. And Sibelius the dictator from the previous year like he has won an impressive victory, but there’s no mention of like, a triumph for I mean, like it’s through siege. I don’t think the Romans respond as well to siege warfare of that nature. Unless you see Besiege them capture the city, and whilst you’re capturing it, do something badass.
Dr G 58:53
I don’t know the requirements are so high.
Dr Rad 58:55
I don’t know. I don’t I’m not getting a strong sense of that. Like he’s being held up as any particular. Yeah, we’re not really sure. Yeah, yeah. If there’s a question mark. I think we’ll leave it if in doubt, leave it out.
Dr G 59:09
If it’s a maybe it’s a no, yeah. And finally. Oh, it’s just like, it’s just like online dating. It’s the citizens go.
Dr Rad 59:20
Okay. Well, kinda in the sense that,
Dr G 59:25
I mean, they seem pretty happy with this since Oriole reforms, like the plague
Dr Rad 59:29
seems to have lifted Oh, that’s good news. There’s their victory with feed and a which is good for them, obviously. And then there’s also yes, as you say, the censorship thing, and the fact that war didn’t happen again. Oh, yeah. It could have you know, it could have been really bad
Dr G 59:46
or absence of
Dr Rad 59:47
war is a huge positive. They wouldn’t be ready for it. Oh, yes, troops were coming for them. And then all of a sudden, they weren’t. Yeah, even though they’re mad about the fact that their champion has been treated bad only, I don’t know that that really affects their quality of life so much. So, I think to say maybe like a three or four, maybe
Dr G 1:00:07
it’s fair to say on the balance, it’s like maybe a five. I mean, they had to do some generous military work, but they also didn’t get invaded by all of a trio. So yeah,
Dr Rad 1:00:16
look, why don’t we say 404? Okay, well, I significantly better score has eventuated. But mind you, we have been doing two years
Dr G 1:00:28
together. Yeah, they’ve got chance for redemption, two years of history.
Dr Rad 1:00:32
So for these two years effigy, we have a total of 12 Golden Eagles. Well done. So not passing.
Dr G 1:00:43
Still subpar. But there we have.
Dr Rad 1:00:45
And you know what? I think we have fulfilled our promise. I think there was more cheerful stuff in this episode than the last episode. There you go. We’re on the up and up. Yeah, indeed.
Dr G 1:00:54
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure as always to chat with you. Thanks. Thanks. Until next time,
Dr Rad 1:01:02
indeed. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. This episode we’d like to give a special shout out to Pete and and Gordon, who shattered us some coffees using our Kofi account. That’s right, you can support our show by buying us a coffee with a one off donation on Kofi whenever you feel like it. However, we do, of course, have a Patreon account as well. And in return for becoming a Patreon you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and getting to see us in action in some of our recording sessions. However, we love to see reviews and nice comments in social media. So follow that’s a bit beyond your means. That’s completely fine. Or you can do it old school, you can actually tell someone in conversation, just slip it in subtly, partial history and it’s a great podcast. It’s how Augustus would do it. The master manipulator well until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
1:02:38
Hello, my name is Thom Dinos, and I’m the creator of the Delicious Legacy Podcast. Join me to time travel together through food to explore archaea, astronomical mysteries, unknown herbs and long lost recipes that will take you to the lavish feasts of ancient Greece, all the way through to Ancient China and in the kitchens of kings in mediaeval Europe, who made the first reason why how beer was made. What is garum, silphium, and can I find these now, through the accounts of ancient writers and talking to experts have a dinner we find out so subscribe or follow now wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple podcasts, Google and Spotify. And listen for free, to the Delicious Legacy Podcast.
Special Episode – The Ara Pacis and Livia’s Villa with Dr Victoria Austen
Nov 03, 2022
Understanding ancient monuments requires a careful eye as well as detective work to delve into the representations and their layers of meaning. In this interview we are joined by Dr Victoria Austen to consider the representation of foliage on the Ara Pacis Augustae and the Garden Room of Livia’s villa. Both these structures hold a special place for scholars interested in the Augustan period and studying them together reveals fruitful connections for considering the messages Augustus sought to convey about his rule.
Special Episode – The Ara Pacis and Livia’s Villa with Dr Victoria Austen
Dr Victoria Austen holds a MA and PhD from King’s College London. She has lectured in the Classics at the University of Winnipeg and is currently the Robert A. Oden, Jr. Postdoctoral Fellow for Innovation in the Humanities and Classics at Carleton College, Minnesota. Her research interests span the Latin literature of the Late Republic and Early Empire; ancient Roman gardens and landscapes; race and ethnicity in the ancient world; the reception of classical myth; and the integration of digital humanities into the classroom. Austen’s monograph Analysing the Boundaries of the Roman Garden: (Re)Framing the Hortus is forthcoming in 2023 as part of the Bloomsbury Ancient Environments Series.
The Ara Pacis Augustae
The Altar of Augustan Peace is considered one of the outstanding monuments from the reign of Augustus. It’s packed with images and is most famous for its processional friezes and the friezes that depict various deities. But when you encounter the Ara Pacis, you’re at eye level with the acanthus friezes – highly stylised displays of foliage and small animals. It is these acanthus friezes that we consider with Dr Austen.
One of the acanthus friezes up close. The foliage grows out from an acanthus base and as the tendrils progress they seem to change into different plants. At the top of the frieze you might even spot two swans on either side of the main stem. Thanks to Dr Victoria Austen for this photo.
The Garden Room of Livia’s Villa
A more private setting than the Ara Pacis, Livia’s villa is nonetheless an important example for considering the ways in which garden imagery was utilised during the Augustan regime. Dr Austen takes us on a tour of the Garden Room delving into the imagery and how understanding this room can help us better appreciate the Ara Pacis as well.
The Garden Room of Livia’s Villa can still be visited today – we highly recommend the experience! The fresco is housed by the Palazzo Massimo alle Terme. Photo credit to Miguel Hermoso Cuesta, Wikimedia Commons.
Detail from the Garden frieze showing the low fences that suggest a demarcated garden area with a wilderness in the background. Notice the continued sense of cultivation throughout. Photo courtesy of Dr Victoria Austen.
Different trees are a focal point in the Garden frescoes and here we see an oak surrounded by birdlife. Photo courtesy of Dr Victoria Austen.
Thanks to BBC Sounds, Fesliyan Studios, Orange Free Sounds and Sound Bible for sound effects, and the gifted Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Automated Transcript
Generated by Otter AI. Let’s see how the AI copes with the Latin and tricky Australian accent this time round!
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:09 Hello, and welcome to a brand new special episode of The Partial Historians. I am Dr. G. And with me is Dr. Rad. And also very excitingly, we have Dr. Vicky Austen as well. Hello,
Dr Victoria Austen 1:28 Hello.
Dr G 1:29 Hello. How are you?
Dr Victoria Austen 1:31 Good. Good. Very happy to be here. Excellent.
Dr G 1:35 Excellent. Well, we’ll see if that continues throughout the course of the interview. We are very thrilled to have Dr. Austen with us to have a chat about things to do with the our pockets are gusty, and also the villa Olivia. So these are two really key sort of architectural works that come out of the Augustine period. So I’m a bit of an Augustine fanboy, which is problematic as a historian, one knows. And so I’m thrilled to be here. Dr. Read specialises more in Tiberius, and may have some criticisms to add into the conversation.
Dr Rad 2:13 Look, you know given the focus that where we’re taking I don’t know if I’m going to crap all over Augustus like I normally do. Well just just have to see…
Dr Victoria Austen 2:24 I mean, he does kind of open himself up for that a lot of the time so I kind of love to hate him.
Dr Rad 2:32 Yeah, the same way that you know, I I love Tiberius, but I can also see his flaws, you know? Yeah, but at least we’re talking about Tiberius’ mum.
Dr G 2:42 Oh, that’s true. Yeah.
Dr Rad 2:43 Yeah, Freudian complexities, you know.
Dr G 2:48 Wait a minute. All right. So Dr. Victoria Austen holds an MA and PhD from King’s College London. She has lectured in the classics at the University of Winnipeg. And is currently the Robert A. Odin Junior Postdoctoral Fellow for Innovation in the Humanities and Classics at Carleton College Minnesota. Her research interests span the Latin literature of the late Republic and early empire, ancient Roman gardens and landscapes, race and ethnicity in the ancient world, the reception of classical myth and the integration of digital humanities into the classroom. So we have a specialist in many areas with us today.
Dr Victoria Austen 3:31 Yeah, like I it’s, it’s boring to just be interested in one thing. So I just like to, if I get frustrated with one topic, then I can give it up for a while and move to something else. That’s my that’s my general approach to it.
Dr G 3:45 And I think that’s really useful and good because there’s lots of ways in which that interval can be approached and taking a single focus might mean that you miss out on some of the really cool interconnections that are out there to be seen. Exactly. So Austen’s monograph Analysing the Boundaries of the Roman Garden: Reframing the Hortus is forthcoming in 2023, as part of the Bloomsbury Ancient Environment series, so welcome, welcome.
Dr Victoria Austen 4:11 Thank you. I feel like whenever anyone says my new position title, because it has the word innovation in it’s like, I feel under pressure all the time to say something really exciting and innovative. So
Dr Rad 4:26 hopefully, I will be doing that. Sounds very impressive.
Dr Victoria Austen 4:30 I know it sounds great. I mean, it’s it’s a long, it’s a long title. But yeah, it just started so, you know, hopefully there’ll be innovation coming
Dr G 4:41 off that there is no doubt I think it’s interesting to pair innovation with classics though, because traditionally, Classics is considered very, maybe very particular in the way it approaches things maybe less than innovative. And yes, it’s a really good spot to see it all coming together. I mean, like, we know there’s room for growth here, guys.
Dr Victoria Austen 4:57 Exactly. It’s potentially not a high bar.
Dr Rad 5:04 That’s the best part of your training.
Dr Victoria Austen 5:08 We could Yeah, we’ll, we’ll aim high with it.
Dr G 5:14 I look forward to seeing how it progresses. So to get us started, we might start with some one of the really obvious questions, perhaps which is what is the Ara pocket? So Gus stay?
Dr Victoria Austen 5:26 Yeah, so essentially, it’s a big monumental altar, kind of mini complex. It’s made up of a central marble altar. And then that altar is surrounded by four walls. And it has kind of steps going up one side, and there’s also kind of an entrance, past the steps. And then you can also exit the other side. And, yes, it’s an altar, but it’s probably most famous for what’s depicted on the outer friezes. So, you know, people tend to forget that it is a sacred altar complex. And instead, they focus a lot on it as a piece of artwork because it has these fantastic exterior friezes, that show all of these kind of mythological and also Imperial images that are really designed to place Augustus at the centre of pretty much everything. It’s like I am the chosen one I have, you know, there’s images of a near us there’s images of Romulus and Remus, Venus, the kind of mythical Roma, and then you have this procession of all of these senators in the imperial family. And it’s really designed as this very kind of monumental statement of Augustan power. And the whole kind of concept of the altar as well, are a parkus means altar of peace. And it kind of gets to the heart of that Aug, A message of he’s very, very keen to say, you know, I’ve closed the doors of the temple of Janus. And you know, we have no war anymore. But it’s kind of peace born out of military victories. So this ultra complex was awarded to him by the Senate as a kind of commemoration for the fact that now Rome has this piece. But obviously, pieces may be an interesting thing to commemorate when actually, it’s the result of all of these kinds of military successes and a very kind of powerful statement.
Dr Rad 7:28 Absolutely. So the exterior of the Ara Pacis Augustae, is dominated in the lower register by panels known as the acanthus friezes. So when you visit the Ara Pacis sees acanthus friezes dominate your perspective as a viewer, what is it that makes these friezes special in terms of the flora that’s depicted on them?
Dr Victoria Austen 7:50 Yeah, so this is kind of my primary focus, really, these lower friezes, which goes against, in some ways, the kind of traditional approach to this alter complex, because as I said, that kind of upper registers have all of these very obviously, political, Imperial dynastic images of Augustan power. But for me, the lower friezes are doing more of the same, but I think it’s in a more subtle way. And for me, what’s really interesting is maybe taking a step back and rethinking about this division between kind of figural sculptural reliefs and then what’s traditionally been seen as more ornamental or kind of, it’s just pretty flowers at the bottom for, you know, it doesn’t mean anything. But I think more and more, it’s kind of widely accepted that these floral friezes can really contribute to that Augustan message on what we see with these friezes, it wraps around the entire kind of bottom register of the altar. And it’s not just a random array of flowers, you know, they’re very purposely picked. And they’re all designed to kind of put forward particular kind of Augustan messages, you know, the campus itself, this as a plant is a plant characterised by it loses its leaves, and then it kind of re re emerges. So that idea of rebirth is really kind of central to Augustus, his new role in general. And that’s kind of visually represented on these friezes where you have a central account this flower, and then it kind of Blooms out and spirals and transforms into all of these other flowers and plants. And it’s kind of this magical, fantastical, abundant display. So for me, it’s really cool because it it’s not just that ornamental aesthetic decoration, you know, there’s a lot to be said about what’s going on with all of these plants,
Dr Rad 9:52 like ya know, like, I can’t believe until I read your article that I hadn’t really thought of that I definitely in the past have focused entirely on the people I’m like, People, let’s focus on what the people need because people need people. And I’ve completely ignored the flowers at not thinking about the fact that if you’re chiselling something into marble and sculpting something, you probably did pick it on purpose, you probably didn’t go. Now I want an Aeneas, I want Romulus I want all the members of the imperial family and then just whatever, yes, just whatever takes your fancy.
Unknown Speaker 10:23 And I mean, it’s, it’s not to say, you know, that kind of the campus ornament, it was a popular ornament at the time, we see it on lots of things. And it can be kind of purely, you know, decorative. But the fact that I mean, one, this is on this monument, there’s more of it than anywhere else. Yeah. And actually, it like, actually dominates your view. And when you think about where the Ara Pacis was in the campus Martius, and the fact that you have the steps leading up to it, actually, the floral ornament is at eye level. So that’s the thing that you’re probably going to come it’s going to catch your eye first. So I think it’s been really underestimated in the past, I think not just how important it is on its own, but it actually interacts with what’s going on above with the people, it complements what’s going on. It’s not just merely decoration. Yeah,
Dr Rad 11:15 I think I think thinking about things spatially like that adds so many more interesting dimensions. And it’s easy to forget, I think, especially because we live where we do, we don’t actually get to experience these things all that often. And so we’re looking at them in books. So we look at the pictures of the different phrases. But when we were doing an episode on children in Pompeii, it was really interesting to consider, like the height level of things, and how you know, people of different ages would have experienced from pain. And this is kind of a similar thing. It’s about what hits your eye, what would you see. And again, I think Augustus is the master manipulator, and there’s no way he would ever leave anything.
Unknown Speaker 11:56 And another thing in terms of just how it would catch your eye, very easy to forget that there would be so much colour on this monument. And, you know, this is well documented now, but I think it’s so easy to forget that we this monument would have been coloured, and, you know, floral ornament, it’s got to be probably very vibrant colours, you know, the the general impression is that, obviously, there’s a lot of green, probably on a very kind of blue background, and then lots of other colours for the flowers. So that’s really going to stand out, because I can’t imagine that even the upper figural reliefs, they’re going to be much less plain just because of the subject matter. You know, it’s a lot of members of the imperial family and senators in togas, it’s not it’s not going to have that same kind of vibrancy as seeing this kind of bright green and blues on the bottom. And as I said, it’s at eye level. So and as you rightly said, he doesn’t do anything by chance. So I think, you know, this is this is not something to be ignored.
Dr Rad 13:04 No, definitely not. And that’s definitely it. I mean, my, in spite of the fact that my students hate black and white, when we’re looking at things from modern history. When it comes to Rome, they still really can’t get their head around this idea of the colour and when they see things colourize They absolutely hate it. They’re like, why can’t it just be like an IKEA store where everything’s just like, beige? It’s so classy. But yeah,
Dr Victoria Austen 13:29 I mean, neutrals are very in right now as well. So, exactly, I don’t think it’s actually helped by how it’s displayed in the museum currently, as well, because it’s this very stark, kind of neutral, very cubic building with all of this glass, which I think again, it’s all these clean lines, and everything’s very neutral. So that that adds to that sense of, well, it wouldn’t possibly be this bold, vibrant colours. So yeah, I think that’s something really important. And I forget that a lot too. I have to kind of constantly remind myself that the colour would be an added element to to how we kind of think about it, and also the experience of walking up to it and what you would see on what would stand out
Dr Rad 14:15 Oh, yeah, it was a struggle because we’ve been absolutely used to thinking of the Romans has been classic classy means white, you know, white columns, all that kind of stuff, white tablecloth, whereas really, it’s more like, you know, walking into like a Versace fashion house.
Dr Victoria Austen 14:31 Yeah, I mean, you only have to look at their wall paintings in Pompeii to know that, you know, everything was very colourful, like they didn’t, but their walls were neutral. So like, why would their monuments be? That’s yeah,
Dr G 14:45 I think there’s a real sense in which, as they progress with our understanding of the Ara Pacis, you do get to see some of that colour a little bit more often, but they kind of do it as like a special event. And so as like, every time I get to go to Rome, which is not that Not often, but when I do it, it’s one of the places that I always go regardless is like, doesn’t matter how many times I’ve been there, it’s on my to do list and seeing the projection of the colour onto the face of the stone, it really changes your whole concept, because they do have some very sort of subtle colorization off to one side where they’re like, this is what it might have looked like, and it’s all pastels and stuff. And you’re like, that’s cute guys. Yeah. But then you do the VR experience. And it’s all like in your face, and it’s highly saturated, and you’re like, Oh, my God, and it’s like, and you can’t get away from those lower friezes, like the plant life really comes out at you. And not just because of that eye level. But because the colours are so striking as well.
Dr Victoria Austen 15:40 Yeah, and this is why in my work, and I know we’re going to speak about this, I’ve tend to compare or use as a point of comparison between the Aeroparque is not other kind of monumental pieces, but instead garden paintings, because that also gives you that colour. And so it helps you I think, envisage maybe, the impact of the colour and I think that’s a useful reference point, rather than just comparing to other marble ornaments. Which again, if you’re comparing kind of the marble to marble, it’s easy to lose the impact of the floral. And instead, you focus on the figural instead. But I think when seen from this perspective of in conjunction with more garden paintings, wall paintings, I think that’s when it really becomes obvious what’s going on. And the purpose of the friezes these lower friezes
Dr Rad 16:33 Well that’s giving me the perfect segue speaking of garden painting, what is the garden room at Livia’s Villa otherwise known as the Villa ad Gallinas?
Dr Victoria Austen 16:43 Yes, so Livia is Augustus his wife, and she has this villa just outside of Rome, I suppose we’d call it the suburbs. So it’s kind of close enough. But it’s not it’s not a coastal villa, it’s kind of just a little bit outside of central central Rome. And in the underground, kind of rooms of this villa, we have this amazing 360 degree kind of garden room experience, it’s a floor to ceiling, you know, 100% wraparound painting in this one room, dominated by this garden painting. And, you know, it’s seen as that kind of garden painting par excellence, you know, we have lots of other examples, but the fact that it’s, it’s not just one wall, it’s this complete room, you know, you step in, and, and I love the, in the museum that you go to now they’re kind of recreated it as a room. So you get that whole sense of experience, you walk in through this open archway, just as you would in these underground apartments, and then suddenly, it hits you and you’re just surrounded by all of this colour. So it’s a really special painting, just in the sense that, you know, we have this entire room and we can reconstruct it, but also the location of the villa to has its own significance for the Augustan regime. And thinking about the significance of plants as well. This villa was said to be the kind of location of a of a miracle to do with Libya and Augustus, you know, this is where we get the Ad Gallinas idea from so it was said that when Livia was just about to marry Augustus, as happens to everyone, she’s just sitting there having dinner, and Brad comes along and drops a sprig of Laurel in her, you know. Absolutely 100% happened. And so then she was told you know what you should plant this sprig of Laurel. And it was seen as this auspicious sign of her marriage to Augustus, which would no doubt have been controversial because she was pregnant with good old Tiberius at the time. And that’s not August is his biological child. So, you know, it did them some favours to have this kind of auspicious bit of Laurel, which is associated with the god Apollo dropped into her lap. And it was said that she then planted this sprig of Laurel, and it blossomed into this Big Grove and from this grove, Augustus and then all the following members of the Julio-Claudian family would take Laurel from that Grove and make their triumph for crowns. So we have the villa as a whole is kind of seen as this special place associated with sacred laurels. And then we’ve got this big garden painting, which features a lot of Laurel as well, in the basement, essentially, of her house.
Dr G 19:39 Yeah, I think this is leads us very nicely into thinking about like some of the trees that are depicted in this space. So obviously, there’s going to be some Laurel in here, but it’s not the only tree that gets to make a feature. And so I’m interested in like the significance the various trees might hold. When thinking about how Augustus is striving to connect his Ruta Rome’s past in particular. So you’ve already mentioned that connection to Apollo through the Laurel. But I imagine there’s going to be some other symbolism coming through as well.
Dr Victoria Austen 20:09 Yeah. So Laurel unsurprisingly is pretty much everywhere in the garden painting. It shown it in all of its forms. So we have it in small shrubs and trees. And obviously, that’s a real connection to Apollo, which also in turn reaffirms Augustus his connection with Julius Caesar, because Julius Caesar use the Laurel as his own kind of personal symbol as triumph for Torres. But in each wall of the garden room, there’s kind of a central tree that kind of dominates the foreground and this kind of a focal point on each wall, and one of them is an oak tree. And if we take that combination of oak and Laurel together, these two trees were said to kind of have a really important role. On the Day when the then Octavian was given the name Augustus that he took on. So it was, it was said that he he was given the right to wear a Corona civica, which is a another special crown made of leaves. And traditionally, it’s given to a Roman citizen that has kind of saved the life of another citizen. So it was seen as he’s saving Rome, really saving us all. And then the Laurel on that day, he was given the right to put to Laurel trees outside of his house. Now, traditionally, to Laurel trees were put outside a lot of religious buildings. So you’ve got this combination of he’s kind of saving the people of Rome. And we’ve got again, another connection to the kind of sacred past, he’s kind of mirroring what would happen in the past with sacred buildings on his own personal residence, and this symbol of the Two Trees would become so synonymous with him that we even have coins, where instead of actually saying Augustus, it’s just the two trees, so people knew that these trees were, were symbolic of him. So we’ve got the oak, we’ve got the Laurel, we also have a pine tree, and a palm tree, and the palm tree, there’s another, you know, handy anecdote about Augustus that 100%. So it was said that a palm tree kind of miraculously sprung out of the ground, again, another sign of the rebirth of the state. And then it was said that he then bought that palm tree inside his inner courtyard of his house, and then that helped an oak tree that had kind of been withering away, that then kind of came back to life with this palm tree as well. So all of these central trees are clearly Well, I kind of see them, they’re a reminder of all of these key stories that Augustus used. And it’s interesting, he kind of weaponizes or, yeah, I say, weaponize the ideas. It’s not just yeah, there’s thought behind it. So it’s kind of weaponizing these connections between trees and kind of gods. But then he’s putting himself and inserting himself into that narrative. So now it’s not just a link between Laurel and Apollo. It’s Laurel, Apollo, Augustus. And those three are together. So he’s kind of inserting himself into a traditional religious connection, I think, between particular trees, and then his own political narrative.
Dr Rad 23:39 Oh, wow, I met I managed to make that through that without gagging, Dr. G. Oh, God, this is sickening.
Dr G 23:49 It’s kind of clever because it’s like you think about it, like the symbols that resonate the most, or the ones that have the oldest connections. And nature is essentially where those connections start. And you see this with many ancient sort of religious sort of like, and ritual thinking as it sort of develops, it comes from the landscape, and for Augustus, in this time of a much more sort of monumental Rome, than it has been for hundreds of years at this point to go back to that symbolism. I think might suggests that he’s maybe dangerously clever…
Dr Rad 24:23 I’ve never disputed that.
Dr Victoria Austen 24:26 I think he’s, he’s tapping into those very deeply, very deeply rooted sense in the Roman world of this kind of connection to your agricultural spaces and people and also, you know, Pliny the Elder has this very cool passage in the natural history where he says that the trees were the first temples of the gods and then from those trees, you would then start building monumental architecture around it and actually make it into these enclosures. So you know, from Maybe that’s kind of what he’s doing with the our pockets because he’s got his own altar or sacred space there. And he’s inserting trees or plants or that botanical imagery. So kind of really going back to that very deep seated, kind of agricultural basis bases, I think, in Roman religion and kind of how they identified as a people, you know, a lot of their, you know, old time figures, you know, since an artist and all this kind of stuff, it’s like, they’re working the land, and they’re there. And this is good. So I think he’s kind of tapping into that, which is, as you said, Very clever.
Dr Rad 25:36 I think he’s got his own take on the idea of greenwashing. Yeah. All right. Well, thinking about all this natural stuff that you’re talking about, it leads in nicely to our next question, which is, in your work, you also discuss Augustus his creation of public gardens as being part of this deliberate policy that he’s following? So if we understand Augustus as shaping room, not just as a city of marble to steal a bit from Suetonius, but as a city that integrates buildings with things like living sculptural forms and green spaces, how does this enhance our reading of the depiction of gardens and forage that we see on structures? Like the our pockets?
Dr Victoria Austen 26:17 Yeah, so I think you have to, and one of the things that I think is really important about the Ara Pacis is, you don’t want to think that as just like you said, these individual friezes that you look at a book and you think of it as almost a two dimensional thing, you want to try and put it back into the space. And I think that it works with the entire Campus Martius complex, you know, there’s several descriptions of this area during the time and it and it really talks about how he almost made it into this kind of landscaped public park. And so you get this sense that the whole area is just a nice place to be. You know, I think, often when I read kind of more modern articles about city planning, now we’ve got we’re kind of recognising this idea that you don’t want cities to be just concrete and buildings, you actually need to put plants back into it and makes it a healthy place. And, and, you know, Horace actually talking about the gardens of my scenesse, in one of his poems, he says, you know, this used to be this, you know, horrible graveyard and witches are here, and now they’ve been banished, and it’s like a healthy place, and people enjoy going there. And so, I think Augustus kind of, he wants the big monumental pieces, but he also again, wants to tap into those ideas of, there’s this green space, you want people to enjoy the spaces. And he really followed Julius Caesar in this and a bit, Pompey, the great as well, this idea of having these public spaces where, yes, you know, who has provided the space again, so it’s public, but it’s kind of been given to you this idea of public benefaction. And I think it’s, with these public spaces, they, with the green space, in particular, I think they feel maybe the most free, because they’re, like, physically open. So you can kind of enjoy that, and enjoy the surroundings. Whereas something like the Ara Pacis like, you know, you’re not going to be going like in there for for an actual ritual, you know, that’s bought out from everyone else. But you can enjoy the whole idea, you know, I kind of think of it as it’s like a big public park and you’re you’re walking around, you’re like, Oh, there’s one monument, there’s another and you can kind of make a day of it. And there’s this idea that he wants to connect. I think he wants to connect with the people in these kind of very clever, but subtle ways. So this idea that you’re opening up the city, yes, there are these big impressive monuments. But you can be a part of that in these kind of wider landscaped spaces.
Dr Rad 29:04 Yeah, and definitely considering the fact that for a lot of Romans, it’s easy to forget that they would have been living in really small, dark, dank sort of places, and therefore, probably would have wanted to be outside of the actual living quarters as much as possible,
Dr Victoria Austen 29:20 Exactly like they’re not, you know, when we think of, say, houses in Pompeii, these elite houses, they have all of these nice garden spaces, these interior courtyard gardens, people living in Rome, they’re living in these cramped apartments. Again, I think it’s in Pliny the Elder, he talks about, you know, maybe if you’re lucky, you know, you have like a little window garden. So I think he’s talking people have interpreted that as like a little window box. And I think Martial also says about, you know, people have no space anymore for gardens in the city of Rome. So there’s definitely this idea that he’s giving people something that they can’t have in their day to day lives. And again, That’s very clever former benefaction. Because, yeah. He’s not there every day, but just the fact that if you go there, you know, oh, he’s allowed this to happen. And then you’re surrounded by buildings like there are pockets, which very obviously are Augustan. And you’re like, Oh, there’s another reminder that he kind of allowed us to be here. So, yeah, very, very clever.
Dr G 30:23 It’s interesting, isn’t it, because it’s like that sense of like being in a public space. And also noting that it is a political space. So I’m thinking about for us in Sydney Hyde Park is, is both a beautiful garden and a really open sort of place. There’s lots of spots you can go to within it. But it’s also the place where there is an ANZAC Memorial, so and it’s a really big building. And they’re doing something every day there. And there’s a pool that goes with it. And so it’s like, that’s a highly politicised part of that park. And you can’t help but know about it when you go through that area. And you could avoid that part of the park. But if you don’t, you will definitely encounter that. And you will have to think about it in some way. And I think you get a sense that Augustus is doing something similar here, where it’s like, you can’t avoid some of these buildings, and you’re going to encounter them, and we’ll see what happens to you and how you think about it at the end of that.
Dr Victoria Austen 31:19 And I think it’s probably more clever, because you are kind of, you know, it’s happening. But you also don’t know it’s happening. So you go thinking, Oh, I’m just maybe enjoying the green space, but you can’t fail to be influenced by what’s around you. And this is, again, why with the our pockets, and that division between the kind of upper figural. And then the slower traditionally seen as just decorative, I actually think that the so called decorative, it’s doing a lot more. And perhaps it’s even more effective, because it’s doing it in a subtle way. So you may think, Oh, well, this this bit I’m looking at, it’s not political, but actually, it’s
Dr G 32:01 Even more dangerous.
Dr Victoria Austen 32:04 It’s like psychological. Yeah, he’s really getting into your brain.
Dr G 32:08 Hmm. So to what extent do you think is it plausible to read the natural imagery that we have at play in the garden room, and on the Ara Pacis, as part of it Augustan project to suggest that he’s rule represented a sort of a fertile and abundant golden age for Rome?
Dr Victoria Austen 32:26 I think 100% I think it does to me. And that’s, that’s very much the kind of argument I’m making, in a lot of my work. And I think it’s this idea of the abundance, I think is is particularly interesting, because that taps into the kind of general Golden Age metaphor that he likes to play with this idea of everything, if you look at the friezes of the our pockets, and livers golf garden room, all the flowers are in full bloom at the same time. So everything’s great, you know, no one’s having to work hard. And I can tell you, as someone who kills a lot of plants, it’s not easy to get them to bloom, you know, is nothing, even if you’re the best gardener in the world, you know, having everything be just right, that’s fantastical. But the artists also put flowers that would bloom at completely separate times. They’re all in full bloom together. So you know, it’s kind of ignoring the rules of nature. So it really taps into I think, what he’s saying that it’s a very visual reminder of the fantastical, because everything about you know, it’s natural, but it’s really not natural at all these plants, you know, on the our pockets, you’ve got one plant transforming into another. So it’s a very obvious visual kind of transformation. And clearly, you know, acanthus doesn’t transform into vines and into roses and stuff at the end. But it’s just this kind of miraculousness. And I think, again, it’s not maybe an obvious kind of this is a political statement. But just that overall sense of this is a great time, you know, we’ve had all of this war, and now everything’s happy and everything’s blooming. And we see this reflected in poems like the Eclogues, where it talks about the kind of over abundance of all of the plants and the flowers. So yeah, I think he’s kind of tapping into that same messaging with this kind of stuff.
Dr Rad 34:32 And that’s kind of what you looked at as being this idea of hyper fertile abundance. Right?
Dr Victoria Austen 34:37 Yeah. And I think with the abundance that is being depicted on these two pieces of artwork, and this links to what I was just saying about, it’s so abundant that it’s not just that you’ve created, you’re such a good gardener that things are at their best, but it’s kind of outside of the natural time of things because I Everything is in full bloom at once. And so irregardless of those individual plants cycles and life cycles, you’ve got the best of everything all at the same time. So it kind of goes one step further than just, I’ve managed to cultivate something to the point of it being like the best. Now, I’m creating like this completely fantastical abundance. And that’s why I think that kind of hyper fertility I talked about in my work, because it’s not just individual plants doing their own thing. It’s like, I’ve created this so called natural thing, but it’s really outside of nature, where we’re pushing it into the kind of fantastical or, you know, the marvellous,
Dr G 35:43 It’s interesting because it sort of stands outside sort of seasonal representation as well. And it’s like an often that’s something that the Romans are interested in, and it plays into everything about how they understand the calendar. And, and yet in this representation on the parkas, it’s like, you don’t get to sense it’s not like one side, it’s winter. One side is autumn, things like that, which you might expect. It’s like, it’s all happening all the time.
Dr Victoria Austen 36:08 Yeah, exactly. Like there’s no pause in this. And it’s exactly the same in Livia’s garden room. It’s, everything’s in full bloom at once. So you could never, you could never get this in reality. So it’s completely beyond the realms of what is possible in in a real garden.
Dr G 36:27 A big political statement, I think, is on the horizon.
Dr Victoria Austen 36:30 I think so yeah. Because he’s basically saying, like, look, look what I can create or cultivate, and I think, ideas of cultivation and kind of cultic. I mean, we do get those words from the same. From the same Latin stem, this idea of the kind of growth and that fantastical, I think plays in with the religious kind of aspect in general, and that kind of sacred, like, we we are so great that we’re going beyond what is kind of humanly possible. And again, Augustus, therefore, is inserting himself into this traditional connection between plants and kind of sacred groves. And now he’s saying, like, look, I too, can create a kind of sacred grove because, you know, look at my sacred grove, it’s the our pocket.
Dr G 37:22 So modest.
Dr Rad 37:24 It’s interesting, though, when you’re comparing those two places, you know, Livia’s villa and the Ara Pacis, because presumably, a smaller circle of people would have seen live years than then maybe could have experienced there are pockets.
Dr Victoria Austen 37:39 Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s why it’s useful to us. And for me to be able to compare the two and draw these comparisons to help me understand what’s going on in the pockets. But as he said, we do have to remember that the Ara Pacis that’s the kind of very public monument, whereas we have garden room, clearly not everyone’s going to dinner at the villa of Livia to begin with. And then the fact it’s also in these kind of underground rooms as well, like, you have to go through a very kind of special set of corridors to get there. Like it does seem like it would be a very select audience that would see that. So you’ve got two very different types of audience, which is something that I want to it’s kind of frustrating the Livius garden room, because there’s always that question of, well, who would have asked Who was this for? Like, is it because she’s like, I want, you know, it would be very self indulgent if it was just for Augustus like, look how great I am. This is my room!
Dr Rad 38:45 It’s his man cave, where he goes to brainstorm – how am I going to use plants for evil next?
Dr Victoria Austen 38:54 Maybe I should, I should suggest that in my in my next, my next article it is actually Augustus’ man cave.
Dr Rad 39:01 Actually it reminds me a bit like this is gonna be the most random reference. But this is what happens when you watch too much television. It reminds me a little bit of this episode of Ru Paul’s series, AJ and the Queen where Ru Paul directly goes to visit his girlfriend and she has these ridiculous parties with all these other like rich people in the city that they’re in. But then during the party, she she taps a few of the wives on the shoulder to go upstairs to her bedroom for like a private Slumber Party part of the socialising and I kind of imagining Livia. Like, come on down.
Dr Victoria Austen 39:36 Yeah, come and see my garden room. And there is there is also some suggestion, although it’s kind of up in the air, but Livia’s villa is also where the very famous Prima Porta statue of Augustus was found. And there is some suggestion, you know, what was it by the entrance to this garden room, you know, some people have posited that as well. So that feeds into this man cave idea. It’s I look I’ve, I’ve and maybe it’s not Livia’s garden room at all. Maybe we should call it Augustus’.
Dr G 40:08 And that’s my statue. I’m looking pretty good.
Dr Victoria Austen 40:12 That’s me. These are my palms. All the Gods love me.
Dr G 40:20 Some classic Augustan moments. Yeah. So taking this idea of this sort of like hyper fertile abundance, there’s also this idea that you discuss called contain profusion. And I’m interested in how that’s coming into play as well.
Dr Victoria Austen 40:35 Yeah. So I think the super interesting thing about both of these pieces of art is, you kind of see them on your initial impression. And then when you look into the actual composition, you take a closer look, you realise it’s a bit more complicated, as with many pieces of art, than you first thought. So with both pieces, your initial impression is, wow, everything’s, as you said, everything’s going on all at once there’s spirals, you know, everything’s in full bloom, everything looks fantastical, it’s amazing. With Livia’s garden room, there’s some kind of subtle evidence of control in this kind of painting. So there are a couple of fences in the painting as well. So this idea of kind of bounding the plants in and we do have a kind of nice, very neat kind of grass area at the front, which kind of balances out this idea of all of these fantastical trees in the background. Also, when you look closer at the trees, it does seem that they have been kind of pruned or trimmed into very nice shapes. So again, this idea of, yes, it’s this abundance, but it’s really all an illusion, because it’s been created in this way. This idea that it just kind of spontaneously erupts. I think when you look closer, it’s complicated, a bit more in the garden room, because we have this evidence of the kind of shaping and pruning of the various plants and you also realise that there is general kind of artistic audit to the composition with the balance between the kind of foreground and the background of the painting. Similarly, with the Ara Pacis, initially, you’re kind of wowed by just the all encompassing, it’s kind of you know, this huge friezes. But then when you take a step back, you realise that each of these panels is kind of surrounded by a very kind of unnatural geometric kind of border. And then it’s obviously enclosed by the figural, friezes at the top as well. And so you get this idea that yes, it’s abundant, but I talked about it being contained, because on the our pockets, it’s kind of physically contained within the two friezes within the frieze panels. And for me, I think this kind of taps into this idea that Augustus wants there to be this rebirth of the state, he wants there to be this regeneration, but only to a certain extent, or there’s there’s a kind of right way to do this and a wrong way to do this. So when you think, oh, yeah, we want everything to bloom and everything to be great. Well, no, we actually want we actually want some control over this. So I think it’s this, it’s this balancing act between he wants to kind of give the impression or illusion that everything is free flowing. overflowing, brilliant, wonderful. But actually, there’s this very clever control going on. And I think we see this in many of the laws that he put in to do with kind of women’s sexuality, and this idea of, you know, encouraging children and you know, no sex outside of marriage, like this kind of idea. And he famously kind of punished his daughter for not following these rules. So there’s the idea of, there’s a right way to be fertile, I think and that’s kind of mirrored in these like sexual laws. And so he wants to give the impression of encouraging it, but only to a certain extent. So there’s a there’s an appropriate amount of growth.
Dr G 44:17 I kind of liked how there’s always the inherent irony for Augustus about how his relationship with Livia came around and how that plays into this as well because it’s like he’s trying so hard to be so controlling. And I was like, this guy he’s got some issues.
Dr Victoria Austen 44:33 Yeah, well, I’m this goes back to the to the miraculous event. Livia’s Villa like he needs that story. Because when you think about it, like he was marrying someone that got divorced and was pregnant with another man’s child, like that goes against everything that like kind of legislatively he had put in so he needed something to to make That kind of divine or suspicious sign. And I think it’s very interesting that he just used the kind of plants to do that. It’s fertile ground for appropriation
Dr Rad 45:11 Well surely that’s got to be part of the appeal of Livia, like, I like to joke that Augustus had like some sort of fetish for pregnant women. But really, really, he probably was looking at her and going, right. She’s elite, and I know she can get knocked up.
Dr Victoria Austen 45:26 Yeah, well, and it was never the plan for Tiberius to actually be I mean, but we now know we, you know, with hindsight, that’s what he ended up becoming so. So the kind of the omen with this laurel kind of takes on another life when we think well, actually, it was all about little Tiberius was in her belly at the time.
Dr Rad 45:48 For Tiberius, in spite of the fact that I am a fan of his, I actually think his life would have been a lot better if he never became emperor.
Dr Victoria Austen 45:55 Also with the Laurel Grove as well. Again, this 100% Really Happened idea. It was said that just before like the death of Nero, that Laurel Grove like withered away, because it signalled like the death of the Julio Claudian dynasty. So you know, perfect timing. So all of these kind of plant tropes, they kind of continue on with this idea of the Laurel and the triumphal crowns, but it just wasn’t working out.
Dr Rad 46:24 Still, I actually just watched the most recent episode of The Rings of Power, and there is a city which has a story associated with it, that when that city is in power, and it’s about to fall that the leafs will fall off the tree that’s in the centre. Yeah, no, it’s yeah, it’s not like a it’s an idea that we actually keep returning to, in spite of the fact that there is a massive disconnect from nature for a lot of people in the modern world.
Dr Victoria Austen 46:48 And so I just think it’s really interesting. This kind of balance with both the Ara Pacis and Livia’s garden room, you’ve got this tension between the kind of wild and the tame, and the kind of natural and the unnatural, because you’re giving this illusion that it’s completely wild, which would be natural, but actually, it’s been tamed. And that is unnatural. But so he’s kind of trying to walk a thin line there. Between those two, so yeah, very, like I said at the beginning, you know, it’s, it’s subtle, but it doesn’t kind of detract from what’s going on in those upper friezes of the Ara Pacis. So I think it’s just kind of like complementing and enhancing and kind of maybe complicating, you know it a little bit as well. And so I just think it makes it even more interesting. Yeah, monument. Because there’s so many figures. Like, I don’t need to analyse another sculpture of men and togas, like I just don’t.
Dr G 47:52 Aw come on think of the fun. And this toga is sitting like this
Dr Rad 47:52 The drapery.
Dr Victoria Austen 47:59 Yeah, I’m like, but what about these swans that are pointing down at this acanthus?
Dr Rad 48:05 I love it. I love it. So if we try and put maybe the our pockets in a bit of context here, like we’ve been talking about, you know, what was outside of Livia’s Villa and that sort of thing. What do we know about the area that’s around the our pockets? Is there some sort of transition from Garden to a campus frieze that might be comparable to the way that trees were integrated into the exterior of Augustus as mausoleum?
Dr Victoria Austen 48:27 Yeah, so it’s both Yes. And no, is going to be my answer to that. So in very broad terms, as I’ve said, it’s part of this Campus Martius Park, which is seen as this overall kind of mixture of the monumental and this landscaped park. So I do think we have that nice mixture going on, however, you know, in the immediate surroundings of the Ara Pacis we think that it’s pretty much kind of like, paved stones, essentially. So in that sense, there would be a kind of break from maybe the greenery leading up directly to the monument, which I think again, would maybe make the floor friezes stand out even more, because you’ve kind of you are surrounded to some extent by more artificial materials in the immediate surroundings. And then you’ve got like kind of bam, this big kind of floral reminder. So it’s in that way, it’s different to, for example, the mausoleum of Augustus, which is close by, and that actually had plantings like literally on it. So I think it’s slightly less integrated on the parkas but then I suppose I would argue that maybe it’s not because we have the floor friezes. So is that seen as a kind of, to me, that’s just a transference of what we’ve seen on the mausoleum, but onto stone, like they’re doing the same kind of thing, just in a different format.
Dr G 49:54 Yeah. And I think that’s the sort of thing where that’s the power of the marble in a way is So as you can create that vision, and it becomes a static vision as well. So it’s like the symbolism is always the symbolism that you want it to be. Whereas if you’re relying on the garden that you’ve created to do that work, you’re you’d have less control over the seasonal elements.
Dr Victoria Austen 50:18 So again, it kind of plays into that, yes, you’re, you’re gonna have the nice kind of real greenery. But that is subject to the elements, it is subject to seasonal change, if you put it in a painting, or it’s in marble, it’s frozen in time, it’s that fantastical. So again, that’s a level of control. When we talk about profusion, it’s all an illusion, it’s not, it’s not actually just spontaneous, you know, as you sit, you know, it takes a long time to carve that marble. So, you know, it’s, and it’s not going anywhere. So it’s, it kind of plays in with the idea of the eternal Augustan piece as well, this idea of, you know, we’re stamping this monument with things that it lasts forever, like this idea of, you know, his victories, that annually re commemorated, you know, there’s meant to be a sacrifice every year, there’s kind of this continual reminder of the original messaging that’s been reinforced on a daily basis by the friezes on the outside,
Dr Rad 51:24 you hear that Dr. G, it’s all an illusion that we’re taking away from this. Fake
Dr G 51:37 Ouch, I feel like the Res Gestae would have something to say about that. We won’t touch on that subject for now. Let’s say as a wrap up question, let’s say we’re going to Rome, that’s the big dream. And we’re in the garden room, or we’re at the Ara Pacis what kind of details and ideas would you encourage us to focus on and think about when we’re in those spaces and seeing them as a viewer.
Dr Victoria Austen 52:01 So I’ll start with Livia’s garden room, because I think it’s quite easy as a viewer to kind of transport yourself back to the ancient world, because it’s been the room has essentially been recreated in the museum like a arched doorway to enter the room is designed to be like the exact same size as the arched kind of open doorway. So you get this real sense of, and I think it’s really nice when you’re about to enter the room to kind of pause because you can see a kind of glimpse of an initial tree, like through the open archway. And so you kind of getting this hint at what’s going on. And then when you step in, there’s like this Wow moment that you realise it’s not just the wall in front of you, but it’s actually all around. So I think, you know, as someone who spent a lot of time sitting in that room, take your time sitting in the room, and I think you want to with both of these monuments or, or representations, I think you have your initial perception, but then you want to take that time to kind of think about the individual elements of the composition, because I think you kind of get a different flavour each time you look at it, I’m always noticing something different every time I look at just the images of these places. So I really, I really just with Livia’s garden room would say, you know, have that moment of pause before you enter to kind of get that transition between what you see as you’re approaching versus the experience actually being surrounded by it. With the Ara Pacis, I think the thing that I would say and we’ve already kind of spoken a bit about this is don’t forget the colour, because I think because of the museum it’s in and I was thinking about it. Before this question, I think it kind of does it a disservice. And I know that other people have issues with the museum that it’s that in, but I think it’s quite hard to imagine it in its original surroundings because it’s a very, very stark, almost like modernist museum that it’s in. And I think it takes it’s a lot harder to kind of imagine its original surroundings compared to living as garden room. So I think you can take in everything for the individual monument. But you’ve got to try and imagine it not in this stark, clean line space, but instead as part of a big park. So you kind of want to imagine that you’re you’re in this big park and you’ve kind of been interacting with people. And yeah, try and put them back in their original location, I think is is a nice way to appreciate them on that level.
Dr Rad 54:36 Cool if they could make a duplicate, like a replica and put that integrated space in Rome. So that people that actually yeah, interact with it. Maybe we should apply for funding to do you. Copyright copyright.
Dr Victoria Austen 54:50 Yeah, we will. I’ll contact someone. It could be like a, we could get a modern sculptor involved and they could resculpt the Ara Pacis and paint it and everything. Yeah, I just think. And more, and they need to do more of the light shows the VR. Yeah, like you said it shouldn’t just be a special occasion. Yeah,
Dr G 55:13 I was gonna say was on like one day a week in the evening and I was like, Guys, this needs to be all day every day.
Dr Rad 55:20 It is the 10th anniversary of our podcast next year. So I think we apply based on the fact that Dr. G’s favourite Emperor of All Time is Augustus. I think Rome should throw a celebration in her honour and create an Augustan theme park so she can be happy forever
Dr G 55:37 would be interesting to try and create the Campus Martius like holus bolus somewhere it’s like Rome has a lot of garden space available and it’s just kind of talking to the right people.
Dr Victoria Austen 55:48 Yeah, and and well now it’s also cool because like they’ve reopened the mausoleum, which pages I need to go back so that I can I can then get a sense of how those two would work together.
Dr Rad 55:59 That’s very thing. Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 56:02 Yes. That’s the dream. I haven’t been able to be back since it open. Yeah, I’m blaming the pandemic.
Dr Victoria Austen 56:09 I think I’m hoping to go next year. So fingers crossed.
Dr G 56:12 Likewise. Maybe I’ll see you there.
Dr Victoria Austen 56:16 We can have an Augustan party.
Dr Rad 56:19 I won’t come but
Dr G 56:25 That’s disappointing to hear, but understandable.
Dr Rad 56:28 I’ll come but I’ll be like moody and standoffish which I Yeah, in the vibe of Tiberius. Yeah,
Dr G 56:34 Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, Dr. Austen, thank you so much for spending this time.
Dr Victoria Austen 56:39 Thank you so much. This is great.
Dr G 56:41 It’s been really good to chat. And yeah, I feel like I’ve got like a whole new vision to think about when it comes to these spaces.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 130 – The Cossus Controversy
Oct 13, 2022
We return to the year 437 BCE and the exploits of Aulus Cornelius Cossus. Cossus came to our attention in the aftermath of the colony of Fidenae’s decision to switch their allegiances from Rome to the Etruscans. In this stressful time, the Romans had appointed Mamercus Aemilius as dictator. He led the Roman forces into battle, and it was here that the military tribune of the hour, Cossus, distinguished himself.
Episode 130 – The Cossus Controversy
Controversial Cossus
In the course of the conflict, Cossus single-handedly defeated the commander of the Etruscan forces, King Lars Tolumnius. Cossus stripped his corpse and was allowed to dedicate the spolia opima in the temple of Jupiter Feretrius. Last episode, we discussed the possible confusion over when this duel took place. Welcome to the Cossus Controversy!
It turns out that Livy was aware of the problems with this story. Uncharacteristically, he provides some insight into these issues in a controversial passage:
“Following all previous historians, I have stated that Aulus Cornelius Cossus was a military tribune when he brought the second spoils of honour to the temple of Jupiter Feretrius. But besides that only those are properly held to be “spoils of honour” which one commander has taken from another commander, and that we know no “commander” but him under whose auspices the war is waged, the very words inscribed upon the spoils disprove their account and mine, and show that it was as consul that Cossus captured them.
Having heard from the lips of Augustus Caesar, the founder or renewer of all the temples, that he had entered the shrine of Jupiter Feretrius, which he repaired when it had crumbled with age, and had himself read the inscription on the linen breast-plate, I have thought it would be almost sacrilege to rob Cossus of such a witness to his spoils as Caesar, the restorer of that very temple.
Where the error in regard to this matter lies, in consequence of which such ancient annals and also the books of the magistrates, written on linen and deposited in the temple of Moneta, which Licinius Macer cites from time to time as his authority, only give Aulus Cornelius Cossus as consul (with Titus Quinctius Poenus) seven years later, is a matter on which everybody is entitled to his opinion. For there is this further reason why so famous a battle could not be transferred to the later year, that the consulship of Cossus fell within a period of about three years when there were no wars, owing to a pestilence and a dearth of crops, so that certain annals, as though death-registers, offer nothing but the names of the consuls. The third year after Cossus’s consulship saw him military tribune with consular powers, and in the same year he was master of the horse, in which office he fought another famous cavalry-engagement.
Here is freedom for conjecture, but in my opinion it is idle; for one may brush aside all theories when the man who fought the battle, after placing the newly-won spoils in their sacred resting-place, testified in the presence of Jupiter himself, to whom he had vowed them, and of Romulus —witnesses not to be held lightly by a forger —that he was Aulus Cornelius Cossus, consul.”
What should we make of all this? Augustus himself being cited as a source? Dr G is beside herself with excitement.
Quaking with Fear
The Romans try to continue their campaign against the Etruscans, but a plague interferes with their plans. The gods must be furious because the outbreak is accompanied by terrifying prodigies like earthquakes. What state will the Romans be in after so many trials and tribulations?
Things to Look Out For
Spurius Maelius possibly coming back from the dead
Consultation of the famous Sibylline books
Augustus possibly trying to control Livy’s historical narrative
Raiding galore
Want to hear more about the original Spurius Maelius? Check out our previous episode on his assassination.
Our Players 437 BCE
Consuls
M. Geganius M. f. – n. Macerinus (Pat) Cos 447, 443
L. Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat)
Consul Suffectus
M. Valerius M. f. M’. n. Lactuca (M’ = Manius) (or Lanctucinus) Maximus (Pat)
Dictator
Mam. Aemilius M. f. – n. Mamercinus (Pat)
Master of the Horse
L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) – son of the famous Cincinnatus
Legates
M. Fabius Vibulanus (Pat) Cos 442
(T.) Quinctius Capitolinus (Barbartus) (Pat)
Tribune of the Soldiers
A. Cornelius Cossus (Pat)
Our Players 436 BCE
Consuls
L. Papirius – f. – n. Crassus (Pat) Cos 430?
M. Cornelius (M. f. L. n) Maluginensis (Pat)
Tribune of the Plebs
Sp. Maelius
Our Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 12.46; Cicero, de Re Publica, 1.6; Cicero, de Doma Sua, 86; Valerius Maximus, 5.3.2f-g.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.17-21.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Cornell, T. 2005 ‘The Value of the Literary Tradition Concerning Archaic Rome’ in Raaflaub, K. A. (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders (Expanded and Updated Edition) (Blackwell), pp 47-74
Lintott, A. W. 1970. ‘The Tradition of Violence in the Annals of the Early Republic’ Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte, 19.1 (Jan., 1970), pp. 12-29
Raaflaub, K. A. 2005 ‘The Conflict of the Orders in Archaic Rome: A Comprehensive and Comparative Approach’ in Raaflaub, K. A. (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders (Expanded and Updated Edition) (Blackwell), pp 1-46
Sailor, D. 2006. ‘Dirty Linen, Fabrication, and the Authorities of Livy and Augustus’, Transactions of the American Philological Association (Vol 136), 329-388
Wilson, M. 2021. Dictator: The Evolution of the Roman Dictatorship (University of Michigan Press).
Sound Credits
Thanks to BBC Sounds, Fesliyan Studios, Orange Free Sounds and Sound Bible for sound effects, and the gifted Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Etruscan Statuette from Apiro, Italy 460-450 BCE. Photo credit to Mary Harrsch on Flickr
Automated Transcript
Provided by Otter AI. As always apologies in advance as the AI technology attempts to navigate our Australian accents and Latin!
Dr Rad 00:16
Welcome to the partial historians,
Dr G 00:20
we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 00:23
Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 00:34
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 00:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad. And I’m Dr. G. Looking very glamorous with a sort of almost iridescent eyeliner today.
Dr G 01:20
Thank you, I crunched up beetle shells myself.
Dr Rad 01:24
How very antiquity of you. I feel very Egyptian thing. I like it. I like it. So we are an ancient Roman History podcast. we’re delving through the Roman Republic at this point in time, aren’t we Dr. G?
Dr G 01:39
We are we’ve been tracing room’s history from its foundation. And here we are in a roundabout for 36 BCE.
Dr Rad 01:47
Well, you just hold on to your horses mercy, because I have a little bit more to say about 437. I’m afraid. I know. So let’s do a little bit of a recap of
Dr G 01:56
Allah. Wasn’t that the you were too long years got stabbed in the groyne? Was it?
Dr Rad 02:03
This is the question that we’re asking. We ask the big questions on the partial historians was a man stabbed in the groyne.
Dr G 02:12
There was a story about that.
Dr Rad 02:14
All right. It definitely was a question of when it happened, I suppose. Oh, yeah. And if indeed Yeah, exactly. So what we were dealing with was Rome has been as usual in conflict with some neighbouring areas. That’s what was happening in fourth
Dr G 02:29
era bully, they don’t know how to get along with anybody.
Dr Rad 02:31
Well, to be fair, to be fair, this whole affair that we’ve been dealing with recently was sparked by someone else’s actions. And they were just responding in kind with a snap to the ground. So what happened was we have one of their colonies FedUni, which had decided to treacherously switches. Can you imagine not wanting to be part of room? Yes. So they had changed their allegiances over to the address guns lever move? Yeah, absolutely. Who is still here, it is something of a force in the north in particular. And this led to a battle in which the actually not the Roman commander. I think I said the Roman commander, but actually not the dictator, but a young man by the name of cosas,
Dr G 03:24
who becomes super famous for killing Tulum news on the field of battle. Yes, so famous that he’s compared to Romulus himself. Yes,
Dr Rad 03:32
exactly. So this guy’s a big deal. We did raise some questions last time about exactly when the slang of the Etruscan King to lameness
Dr G 03:43
actually happened. We’re in a very hazy period of American history in terms of the chronology as it were. And I think this is going to not be cleared up for another 10 years or so.
Dr Rad 03:51
Yeah, basically, we have accounts that place it in 437. But certainly there are questions raised about maybe it happened in 426. Because this is a very on again, off again, kind of issue that the Romans have.
Dr G 04:07
Can’t hold on to LIS who knew?
Dr Rad 04:09
Yeah, so because there is this on again, off again, nature, it’s possible that the exact chronology is a bit confused. And I must admit, I was pretty convinced by the idea that to lameness as the king and therefore the leader of these interesting forces that the Romans were fighting, I was kind of convinced by the idea that it would make sense for him to be killed in the final year of the conflict. And that to be like a signal of Right, yeah, done. Yeah. Over Yeah, rather than in the very first year, but nonetheless, it does crop up and forth. The
Dr G 04:42
tragedies happen and the Etruscans have 12 kings, so maybe they can find another one from somewhere else to die later.
Dr Rad 04:47
Exactly. Anyway, so we’ve got this whole idea of cosas, managing to defeat to laminators in battle, mano a mano, and being able to strip him him of his spoils. So his armour, his weapons, that kind of jazz, you know, and then getting to take part in this very special dedication ceremony where he dedicates this Bollier Optima, which is all that stuff. All that stuff is nicked off the guy’s body. Yeah, exactly in the temple of Jupiter Farah treatise. Hmm. Which is you highlighted it’s very, very special thing to do. It is super special. And not many people do it. Yeah. The only person to do it before cosas was apparently Romulus, which is saying something because as we’ve highlighted, he’s probably fictional.
Dr G 05:37
It was a long time ago, and nobody’s sure anymore if he was real.
Dr Rad 05:41
Yeah, exactly. Now, before we move on into the next year, I wanted to highlight a particular passage of Livy, which is connected to these events. So last episode, we talked about what the scholars think about this event and the potential haziness around the reporting of it. And I thought, I’m actually going to read out this entire passage of live events, very controversial passage. And so I think it bears repeating in full. So you ready? Oh, yeah, I’m excited. Yeah. So living himself actually acknowledged that there was debate over exactly what happened. Good man. He’s done his research. He kind of has Okay, and I think you’re gonna be very excited when you find out exactly how he’s doing his research sorry. For my living voice, following all previous historians, because of course, we all know the Romans British, stated that all this Cornelius Corsas was a military Tribune when he brought the second spoils of honour to the Temple of Jupiter trees. But besides that, only those are properly held to be spoils of honour, which one commander takes from another commander, and that we know no commander but him, under whose auspices the war is waged, the very words inscribed upon the spoils, disprove their account and mine, and show that it was as console that cosas captured them.
Dr G 07:17
This makes sense, actually. It’s like, it’s very bizarre to have a moment where you’re like, ah, an enemy commander has killed another enemy commander in battle and like, and his name’s costless, and he’s not on the controller list for this year. You’re like, Oh, awkward.
Dr Rad 07:32
Exactly, exactly. So it’s exactly what he’s highlighting that hang on a second. There was a dictator. And because this actually wasn’t the commander, this is just some
Dr G 07:41
dude. Yeah.
Dr Rad 07:42
Okay, now, this is the power you’re going to get really excited. So okay, here we go. Having heard from the lips of Augustus Caesar, the founder or renewer of all the temples that he had entered the shrine of Jupiter Farah trees, which he repaired when it had crumbled with age, and had himself read the inscription on the linen breastplate. I have thought it would be almost sacrilege to rob casus of such a witness to his spoils as Caesar, the restore of that very temple, where the era in regard to this matter lies in consequence of which such ancient annals and also the book of the magistrates, written on linen, and deposited in the temple of manita, which lies Kenya’s may or may serve you prefer sites from time to time as his authority only gives all US Cornelius courses as console with Titus quinti is pointless. Seven years later, is a matter on which everybody is entitled to his opinion. For there is this further reason why so famous a battle could not be transferred to the later year that the consulship of courses fell within a period of about three years, when there were no wars, owing to a pestilence and dearth of crops, so that certain animals as though death registers offer nothing but the names of the consoles. The third year after Costas is consulship, saw him military Tribune with consular powers, and in the same year, he was master of the horse, in which office, he fought another famous cavalry engagement. Here is freedom for conjecture, but in my opinion, it is idle, for one may brush aside all theories when the man who fought the battle after placing the newly won spoils in their sacred resting place, testified in the presence of Trooper tar himself, to whom he had out them and do Romulus witnesses not to be held lightly by a forger that he was all us. Cornelius Costas console. Microphone drop. All right. So let’s unpack this a little. Yeah,
Dr G 10:18
there’s a lot going on here.
Dr Rad 10:19
There is a lot going on. But this is actually probably one of the most controversial passages of Livi.
Dr G 10:25
Oh, no, it’s why he has done his best work. How can this be controversial? Yes, exactly. It’s gone and talked to people. And he’s looked at some evidence and, you know, some reliable sources, nobody’s going to distrust or Gustus? Surely not. Well, it’s
Dr Rad 10:37
just so fascinating, because he is highlighting all the things we’ve highlighted that there’s so much confusion in this period. And it’s partly because we’ve got some similar names that keep coming up in a very short period of time. And there do seem to be like multiple battles, which maybe events from those battles have been slightly confused. He has sources, these unfortunately, basically non existent earlier records, which we only now have, like very,
Dr G 11:05
like he’s working on, like scholars that we don’t have access to ourselves, like yours may. So we don’t have a lot of, and he’s going to console a list. So he’s going to fastI. Yeah, they’re a little bit more reliable, but they’re also a bit gappy. Well, yeah, depending on what the time period is. I like this idea that there’s pestilence, maybe one of the things that needs to be kept in mind. Absolutely. I haven’t come across any pestilence in the last few years. But I’m wondering if that some are about to hit us.
Dr Rad 11:38
I think I think that we can we can feel the plague, that skins ability. But definitely I love this questioning. But also, I mean, the reference to
Dr G 11:48
Yeah, well, I Okay. So I guess has kind of been the only person who went into that try. And it’s not like he by hand himself is restoring the temple. Like, that’s just not even on, but he might be one of the few people who had entered into the interior shrine itself in a very long time. So part of what happens with temples and structures like this is that you do have an interior chamber for the most sacred things, which is under the purview of whichever priesthood is looking after that particular temple. Yes. So but their job is not to go in there and sort of like, look at that stuff and hang out is just to make sure that things are intact. So they’re not really going to be spending a lot of time necessarily studying the items that are in there, like sort of shrine or archive as it were. Yeah, that’s not necessarily part of their job. So it’s quite possible that that has been maintained, but needed to be opened. Yes, as part of the restoration process to make sure everything’s okay. And Augustus might have wanted to have been part of that it’s plausible that he would have a sneak peek in there because he’s that kind of guy sticks his nose into everywhere where it doesn’t belong.
Dr Rad 13:00
Lexa Alexander’s grey? Yeah,
Dr G 13:02
exactly. It’s like, I just need to see Alexander for myself. And I was like, that’s gross. He’s been dead for ages.
Dr Rad 13:09
Well see, okay. I was intrigued by this at first, because it’s unusual for any ancient historian to go into this kind of detail about their source material and their process. It’s significant depth. Yeah, it is. It is really interesting. But obviously, the reference to Augustus Well, there’s a whole nother spin on things strategy. And I was very mean. I’m not gonna say that he’s alive, but he’s alive. So shock, Augustus has been known to, you know, spinner through things. He’s a bit of a master manipulator. You know, I think this is him. But there’s this, I do think there is also the element which Livy is quite right to point out that if this breastplate is actually there, and crosses did actually dedicate this breastplate swearing that he was console to Jupiter. I mean, that’s a big lie to tell, dude. So there are lots of different things going
Dr G 14:06
on here. I mean, we could just check by opening up the shrine and having a look for ourselves.
Dr Rad 14:12
Patrons get on to it, we need some money
Dr G 14:15
to Jones hat.
Dr Rad 14:18
Yeah, so I was very fortunate to stumble across this really in depth article which went through so many layers of this one passage. So it’s by Dylan sailor, it’s called dirty linen fabrication and the authorities of living Augustus, which I think is an amazing title, dirty linen, I know, which is obviously like a reference to the fact that we’re dealing with a linen breast fillet we’re also dealing with potentially this source called the linen rolls.
Dr G 14:45
I’ll be honest, a linen breastplate at first blush doesn’t sound like it’s going to be much use for defensive purposes.
Dr Rad 14:50
Like it’s no wonder he got set to the point. It has a lot of questions, but he goes into each detail now I’m not gonna go through Through all of this, this very amazing academic article, but there were some interesting elements which he highlighted, which I thought bear mentioning. So his point of view is that the way that Livy very carefully records this passage, and what happens is that he is kind of linking the evidence that Augustus has offered to him with some early events from Roman history that he’s already reported on, which involve supernatural elements coming into play. Okay, and like possible embellishment, or aspects of like fabrication and that kind of thing. So for example, when the king NUMA would go for a stroll with a goddess.
Dr G 15:44
Yeah, very plausible. Definitely happen. Yeah,
Dr Rad 15:46
exactly. Those sorts of things where it’s like,
Dr G 15:48
did Augustus look into that archive as well? Like she’s real. They found her in the forest myself.
Dr Rad 15:54
Exactly, exactly. And there also have been questions raised about when Livy put this passage in, like, did he did he originally publish it with this passage? Or was it a later edition? Because you spoke to Augustus those sorts of things?
Dr G 16:07
I wonder if it yes, the kind of thing where it’s like Augustus is like, boy, Livy, come here.
Dr Rad 16:12
Exactly. Yeah. Let me tell you a thing about a breastplate.
Dr G 16:16
Well, Second Edition, you’ll you’ll need to do some reworking.
Dr Rad 16:19
Exactly, exactly. So there’s been a debate about that, to be honest, I kind of agree with saying that in that it actually doesn’t really matter for what I’m about to say next. This is more about contextualising. This particular event, it would seem that it around the time that Libby is writing this passage, we’re talking about, you know, sort of like 27 to 25 BC Oh, a very prime political time for Augustus, isn’t it? Just do you want to tell us about a WG?
Dr G 16:48
So 27 is the traditional year in which we have the moment where we it’s called like the settlement? Yes. And there’s this kind of agreement reached that Augustus will get this additional title, this is the moment he becomes Augustus. And the way that the power will be divvied up is kind of resolved after this sort of lengthy tail period after the end of the Civil Wars, where it’s not really clear what what Augustus position really is. And they need to sort of firm up something because it’s clear that whatever has happened as a consequence of the Civil War, Rome is now different, and its politics functions differently, and they need to figure out how to make that formalise so they can keep going. Yes. And the settlement is partly about that. And so it’s a bit of a, an honour gesture to Augustus. But he’s also, you know, gotten to this position because he’s killed so many of his enemies. So who’s left people on his side? Potentially? Yeah, so it’s this interesting moment for Rome where it’s consciously shifting, and it seems that Augustus is also shaping that shift. Oh, yeah. So he’s one who? master manipulator, perhaps, or political strategist, with no enemies left on the floor. So you know, the last chess player remaining,
Dr Rad 18:06
don’t think they don’t be just
Dr G 18:08
beaten by a teenager, for those following chess controversies. But well, Costas is the kind of the only one left the clear leader. And he has this moment where they also allow him to choose the name that he’s going to take for himself. And they did mention that Romulus for a bit didn’t they did and he did, and you know, weigh up the pros and cons with like being Romulus as his like, order rific title and was like, and then decided maybe that was a little bit too on the nose, and decided to want to something that was just his Yes, but there is a sense in which Augustus is super interested in the history of Rome and how he fits into it. So it’s not at all surprising that he’s also very interested in courses because courses is the next figure in Roman history that has this call back to Romulus. And it’s like, somewhere in there, or Gustus, who’s going to want to sort of line himself up with all of the significant figures that have
Dr Rad 19:04
come before. Yeah, definitely. And that’s why he’s doing things like restoring temples like it’s you know, harkening back because Romulus supposedly is the person who founded this temple. Oh, yes. So you know, it’s all these kinds of connections. But if we put it in a bit of context of what specifically was happening just before this, so in 29 BCE, there was a train that was allowed to be held, because I’m gonna say aloud because this is around at this point in time by permitted a minute by markers like Kenya’s crisis. No, not the famous one. I mean, like, nothing like the money grubbing crashes. Yeah, but not the one that I think is the most famous one because he was always a reference to Spartacus. But anyway, so this guy, he had been cancelled in the previous year. He was now serving as a pro console. And in that capacity, he ended up fighting people called the bustani Hmm. And during that battle, he killed and stripped the chieftain Dell though.
Dr G 20:08
Did you just say the judge didn’t do though? Where’s Dell though? Wherever still,
Dr Rad 20:16
he’s the guy wearing the red and white stripes. Yeah, so he defeated this guy. And for this reason not only does he get to try out for there’s also granted to him the right to deposit the spoils in the temple of Jupiter Farah tres
Dr G 20:32
awkward. I can only imagine Augustus being slightly jealous slash angry about that. Well, this is
Dr Rad 20:37
the kind of the context we need to keep in mind. Obviously, he’s not actually he’s not August as yet. He is, by the time that live, he is writing, but he’s just come off having his own trounce, which is obviously very impressive. But it’s really essentially no matter how much he tries to spin it or manipulated to appear otherwise a civil war that he has been fighting. Yeah, but he succeeded in the Civil War did but let’s face it,
Dr G 21:04
that’s a triumph.
Dr Rad 21:05
I’m not saying it’s not a triumph. I’m just saying it’s over. Okay. Yes, technically, Cleopatra, but also Mark Antony,
Dr G 21:13
it’s awkward. That’s what it is awkward.
Dr Rad 21:14
It’s all shades of. Okay, so there’s this whole thing going on here that we have to sort of, you know, keep in mind as well. Okay. So that’s happening. Then on top of that, if we return to how Levine records this particular issue, isn’t even clear. Exactly how live you feels about Augustus in his work. Certainly, I think we’ve mentioned previously that he’s obviously writing and it’s very interesting time period, where he’s literally writing as Rome is changing dramatically. How much he appreciated it at the time. Exactly. Obviously, he didn’t have a crystal ball to know like, where this is all heading.
Dr G 21:57
Yeah, but he might be consonant enough to be like we’re living in interesting until
Dr Rad 22:01
I think that’s certainly true. Like, he might not have gone like, well, there’s gonna be an empire for the next 500 years, you know, with Emperor’s and whatnot. But certainly, I think I think people appreciated how significant Augustus was, it’s a bit unclear about exactly where he stands. Now, you could read that passage as being August has told you to do something, and he did it. But
Dr G 22:24
he might have just been really impressed.
Dr Rad 22:25
But the thing is, it’s interesting, given that by the time he’s writing this, Augustus is just getting more and more powerful. He doesn’t hand over authority unquestioningly, to Augustus his events, he phrases it very carefully. And that’s what I think is really interesting. He technically leaves the choice up to the reader, but he doesn’t take himself like out of the accounts, he kind of walks you through the fact that Okay, so this is my way of doing things I’ve looked, you know, I’ve considered the sources. I’ve looked at the, you know, the older source material, this is what I’ve found. These are the issues. However, this is the version that Augustus says,
Dr G 23:15
Make of that what you will
Dr Rad 23:16
Derrida Yeah, and the way that he phrases it, that idea of it being sacrilege, you know, like this idea of sacrilege like not to report this and to include it. In sailors opinion, this is somewhat connecting this episode to those episodes, which he had talked about previously, like kings going out with goddesses and having a rite of time in the forest, where Livi reports these things. But there’s always that notion of look, if you’re open to accepting there’s like a certain like supernatural aspect or like embellishment going on here. Cool. But I’m just signalling to you that I’m not sure I entirely buy into this. There’s clearly an agenda here. And he and he can buy into that agenda. If he sees it as being something like for the public good, or, you know, like, there’s a purpose there. But I don’t know if he feels that Augustus falls into that category. And so by hinting at the fact that Augustus has version isn’t entirely true, he’s kind of going I clock you, Augustus. I see what you think.
Dr G 24:31
I don’t think he said it’s not entirely true. He said, I’ll leave it up to the reader. That’s a very fine distinction.
Dr Rad 24:38
I’m just saying this is what say like, this is what Taylor is saying. Okay, he’s saying that by hinting at the fact that there’s like a certain embellishment potentially going on here Livi is subtly very subtly indicating, I am not part of the rabble, okay, and my readers potentially, like I’ve opened the door for them to Oh, also not be part of this rabble who are being easily fooled by these stories that you’re feeding us to show how powerful you are and promote your version of things and establish that dynamic with us. None of
Dr G 25:15
that. Look, I think you might be reading a little bit too far across most of our editor, I’m gonna give Libby props for being a good historian in this moment, because he’s doing his due diligence in both reporting the facts as far as he understands them, these like these are the pieces of evidence I’ve been able to encounter. So these things have been witnessed, and we can say something about them. And he’s also doing his due diligence and in reporting the stories that people tell about these things. Absolutely. Because historians are well aware that it’s not just what may or may not have happened and what we can absolutely establish, it’s also about how people talk about them and how they feel about them. And so, being able to position or Gustus is a piece of storytelling in there is useful, because it allows him to highlight that there are some, you know, Contemporary Perspectives on this situation, which might very well be of interest to you. And also catcher in like, but here’s everything else you need to consider. So there is that sense in which it’s not, he’s not just reporting or Gustus. So I think you’re quite right to say that, you know, he’s not he’s not buying everything hook, line and sinker that Augustus is selling. And he’s also encouraging that critical thinking from his readers as well. Yeah, saying like, you know, we’re in a situation where we all we all kind of have to listen to this guy. And there’s some stories to be told about that. Yeah. But we also shouldn’t forget that. That’s not the only source of evidence that we could rely upon for our understanding of any particular situation, including this one. And it’s a good story.
Dr Rad 26:56
I just thought it was interesting perspective from Sailor because he actually goes through this article, like all these different instances. So you can really like if you’re interested in seeing learning more about that connection with the supernatural storytelling and livie. And those sorts of things. You can actually go through and look at all these instances from the reigns of Romulus and NUMA and tourists and all those sorts of people from the Regal period. Certainly, though, what I did like about this article, was this idea that it is kind of a bit of a battle of alternatives, in terms of Liddy is the historian in this situation, he’s the one that’s doing the research, or Gustus is a politician. And at this point in time, essentially, a ruler. It is is interesting, like, well, who you gonna believe sort of thing. Some people have seen this passage as being kind of evidence, I suppose Livi being confused and maybe undermining his own authority, that he can’t make sense of this, you know, or whatever. But I have to admit, I do see it more as being a way of dealing with the fact that a source material is problematic, but also be Augustus is now problematic in this situation, so I agree, I don’t think it actually makes Libby appear worse historian or someone who we shouldn’t trust.
Dr G 28:12
No, I think this is actually evidence that he’s probably quite a robust historian, and he’s doing the best that he can Yes, with the evidence that he’s has. And he’s also willing to provide that to the reader, definitely. So that they can get a sense of just how complex this situation is. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn’t make it any more clear about what actually happened. But that’s the clarity. That’s what good historians often do.
Dr Rad 28:36
So that was a fascinating passage, which I couldn’t, I couldn’t let it pass without delving into the complexities particularly when it’s got your favourite room and of all the time.
Dr G 28:47
My controversial favourite.
Dr Rad 28:50
I love how you are a fan of Augustus and Tom, how you always come off as worse as me who’s a fan of Tiberius, who apparently is a paedophile.
Dr G 28:59
I mean, it’s in the source material.
Dr Rad 29:02
We all know it’s a lie. Anyway. Alright. So or do we do I think, all right, so that’s enough, I think before 37 And the controversy over courses,
Dr G 29:12
courses. Yeah, that’s maybe that’s what we should call this episode.
Dr Rad 29:18
This is our episodes. So with that, I think I’m ready now to pause and then move into our 36 species.
Dr G 29:46
For 36 BC, it’s all happening. Well, I’ve got some great news and some terrible news. The bad news or the terrible news is Dionysius of Halicarnassus my major source that I’ve been reading is still missing. And we’ll be missing for quite some time. Look, I
Dr Rad 30:03
gotta admit it’s getting easier every time I hear.
Dr G 30:06
I’m so sad. On the plus side. Lots of things happen in 436. And I know about them because I read other sources.
Dr Rad 30:12
Excellent. Well, shall we start with you our major streets?
Dr G 30:17
We have some consoles this year do we do? Apparently Lucia is purpureus sort of no one grandson of no one rasas who is a patrician? Yes. And will become will have roles in the future as well. Sure. And then we have Marcus Cornelius, son of Marcus grandson of Lucius mag Gulen insists.
Dr Rad 30:44
Also patrician. Yeah, big surprise. Yeah, I think we’ve had that tongue twister name before.
Dr G 30:50
Yeah, look, I mean, it feels familiar. But then Latin often does.
Dr Rad 30:55
This mean given that we have a bit of his heritage there. I think they think they’ve crept up before I think
Dr G 30:59
the most controversial character in my list for 436 is spirits. Melee is returned from the dead.
Dr Rad 31:06
I was really confused. I was like, Am I free reading?
Dr G 31:11
Spirits Melee is as far as we know, was murdered publicly. For 39
Dr Rad 31:18
must be relative. Thanks very much naming convention,
Dr G 31:21
maybe a relative but I mean, some question marks this spurious may alias apparently. I mean, if not back from the dead, obviously on the family agenda because proposes a bill to confiscate the property of a hauler. Yeah, the assassin in question. And accusing Manoukian is the former prefect of the grain supply of falsely accusing spirits Malea sort of aiming towards kingship?
Dr Rad 31:51
Yeah, well, I mean, this is this is all going back to the the controversies that we really spoke about at the time, he was really trying to be serving a stripping of the clamps, presumably, you know, kind of got in there because of the similarity of his name. And he certainly is playing Majan if he’s no
Dr G 32:07
relation, like not.
Dr Rad 32:11
Yeah, he just he knows he’s got this popular name. And he believes that just through the power of the name, given that the other speakers Malleus was only murdered a few years ago, that this power is going to allow him to cause all sorts of havoc for Manoukian and a holla. Now a holla. In case we don’t remember, pretty sure he’s actually selinexor I thought he’d run away. Yeah. But I mean, obviously, yeah, it obviously still like sticks the knife into confiscate the property.
Dr G 32:41
Well, yeah. confiscating the property is not necessarily intrinsically connected to exile. Yeah. And a hollow may have just fled for his own safety. So he might not have been formally exiled because often a formal case of being exiled does result in confiscation of property as well. So there’s a little there’s some confusing things about this story.
Dr Rad 33:02
Yeah, definitely. And so even though he’s got this very popular name, and seemingly, he’s doing things, which I think people would kind of be on board with, because everyone was super into Malleus. In his green at
Dr G 33:14
the time, this is true. I imagined he would have the people on site, but he doesn’t. Oh, yeah. Levy’s sources don’t go into that. But
Dr Rad 33:22
no, this is a thing. Like, I think he’s quite right, in the sense that Sebelius did kill someone who hadn’t officially been found guilty of anything. So he’s right about that. I mean, nucleus the false accusation? Well, I guess that’s a bit he said. He said kind of situation. But anyway, what Livi tells me is that the people really weren’t impressed by these charges. They seemingly are not strongly behind him interested in his accusations. bit weird. I do also have a bit of other detail about what’s happening externally. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when we’ve got our consoles, obviously, the Roman armies apparently invaded the territory of vai and the Phyllis skins who were their allies, lest we forget, captured some booty in the form of people and also animals. And the Romans didn’t have any big set piece battles at this point in time, because they didn’t really encounter their enemies much. And they didn’t end up engaging in like a long siege or anything, because a plague arrived. Oh, yeah. So that’s how things kind of play out in my account.
Dr G 34:33
They play go in your
Dr Rad 34:36
Yeah, so I’ve got a pestilence breaking out, which I think kind of not only does it detract from the military campaigns that are going on, which is obviously a continuation of the issues that have been going on with the whole feeding a colony controversy, but also, I think, probably distracts a little bit from what this tribune of the plan this is trying to achieve. Yeah, there’s
Dr G 34:56
nothing to really put a dampener on political change then be like I can’t get out of bed and I’m possibly going to die.
Dr Rad 35:02
Yeah. And on top of that, as often happens with pestilence, the people are worried and they get even more worried because prodigies start to appear. Oh god. Yeah. Now I like these particular prodigies because they’re not like a woman gave birth to a snake with three heads, those kinds of things. It’s this guy prodigy where farm buildings are, quote, often thrown down by earthquakes, which I assumed to mean, disappeared into chasms that opened up in the ground, which is something we can totally see happening. Like, I mean, it’s in it’s believable that that happens.
Dr G 35:36
Well, certainly. Yeah. I mean, Italy is on is on a whole bunch of plates, isn’t it? That’s why it’s got a whole volcanic sort of rain. So serious. Hey. Yeah, that’s great, should be part and parcel of what’s going on. Yeah. So that
Dr Rad 35:49
kind of made sense to me. And as a result of these things happening, the Dewan viri in instructed to offer up a supplication to the gods. Now, I believe this
Dr G 36:00
is a group of two men. Yeah, I believe with a Jesus, Chris.
Dr Rad 36:07
I believe this
Dr G 36:07
is a reference. This is what happens, but I don’t have
Dr Rad 36:12
I think it’s the reference to the doin Riri sacral. Can I say this word? Do a very sacral room? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Who are in charge of the civil line books at this point. So they are, I think, basically consulting the civil line books. And this would be where this application that they’re offering up to guys would come from? I think this is when
Dr G 36:35
they’ll find the answer to what kind of supplication they need to make. Yeah,
Dr Rad 36:38
these are similar in books as a bit of a refresher, very important set of texts to the Romans, even though when they were originally offered them. The king at the time decided to burn quite.
Dr G 36:52
Yes, we’ve lost six of the nine.
Dr Rad 36:54
Yes, exactly. Nonetheless, the Romans always turned to them in times of trouble, because they apparently offer much wisdom. I kind
Dr G 37:03
of like the fact that the you know, two thirds of the answers are missing. So there’s a whole bunch of things
Dr Rad 37:08
there’s never able to solve that’s why for farmhouse is again to the earth. And that’s really all I’ve got for 430 604 36
Dr G 37:17
Welcome, welcome. Oh, yeah, things. It’s mostly to do with the way that a hauler is depicted in source material. Okay, and on the way that this whole situation with the assassination of Malleus ties into broader issues with grand crises throughout human history. And you touched on when I found some more scholars on it, so I’m interested in what they’re where they’re heading with this kind of
Dr Rad 37:42
rain grand afternoon. A holla.
Dr G 37:45
Well, first of all, its various alias is suspected and this isn’t roundabout for 39 of the effect tomatillo regni. The ambition to rule as King Well, yeah, that’s why they killed it. Yeah, that’s why they apparently that’s that’s their bag. Yes. But when this new spurious Malleus comes in distributed with the plebs, yeah, he is accusing Manoukian s and a holla. Not going okay. Sorry, just a holler of being a Kade. Is civis in them naughty and unlawful murderer? Yeah. So going outside of bounds of what is possible. So this idea of reinforcing the fact that maybe a hauler wasn’t really mastered the horse, or maybe wasn’t really supposed to engage in this level of violence,
Dr Rad 38:38
which is interesting, because we talked about the fact that we believe that maybe he was given like this tacit Go ahead, like wink wink from the Senate.
Dr G 38:46
Yeah, they thought they maybe they’d get away with it. But he wasn’t given an official position. Now, they just asked for a volunteer and a holler was the kind of crazy violent kid who put up his hand was like, oh, already, somebody brought a lighthouse? Yeah. Well,
Dr Rad 38:59
I mean, he was trying to be king, I mean, other admins who have Okay,
Dr G 39:03
and he does have to leave Rome as a result of this. Yes. But the elite see this as an enduring story of patrician injustice. Because what a holla does is he saved the state, from somebody who was trying to rise up to be a king,
Dr Rad 39:21
definitely, I will live live. He definitely drives home this idea of like Liberty being preserved, I call crap.
Dr G 39:29
And Libya is not the only one who buys into that kind of version interpretation. Cicero refers to a hollow in a couple of his texts always in a positive fashion, interesting in the sense that he feels that there’s been an injustice done, and he does categorise a howler in with a whole bunch of other figures who he also sees as being unjustly treated and having to go into exile in a way that is undeserved. Interesting, so it’s like, I’ve done something controversial Am
Dr Rad 40:01
I putting a prediction out there? Okay, I’m waging that some of these people also came up against some up attributions of the clips.
Dr G 40:09
You be so right. I see some parallels. Yeah. So Cicero in the day re publica. Yeah, this is book one. Section six for people who are keen puts a hauler in the same category as somebody called Camillus. Who we’re going to encounter very soon. I was gonna say, yeah, a guy called Nazca
Dr Rad 40:31
wire
Dr G 40:32
mending. Well, Linus. Yeah, Optimus. Mattel metallic, and Gaius Marius, another name that people might just recognise. Yes. Camillus is likely to be Marcus furius Camillus. Who we are going to, we’re going to, yeah, I’m so furious. Yeah. Coming up soon in a Roman History podcast near you. And so I won’t say too much of them because I don’t want to ruin the story. Name Zika is possibly a reference to Publius Cornelius skipio name Zika serraglio. Yeah, which I’m sure you know, sounds very familiar to everybody was constantly 138 BCE. So by the time we get there, I’m sure I will forgotten that I’ve mentioned him at all, but was famously a political opponent of Tiberius Gracchus,
Dr Rad 41:24
one of the most troublesome tributing to the plebs to have ever lived, if not the number one. Number one, number two is his brother.
Dr G 41:34
And now Zico gets himself into trouble, because he’s the one that calls for the salvation of the state sort of protest, leading the opposition against Tiberius Gracchus, which causes a whole commotion where I think it’s the infamous roof tile incident where this guy gets gets kicked in the head in in the sort of public violence that erupts and dies.
Dr Rad 41:57
Can I just can I just quickly say the reason why that name, which is such a mouthful is so familiar to me. It’s because that was the guy that I had to research for my assignment for Tom Hill. So every year Tom Hill at Macquarie University would give his students in his introductory room course a person to go and find like all the source material that you possibly could like everything you could find it was a press
Dr G 42:26
broker full a post Republican vocal
Dr Rad 42:29
press pacu focal study. And so he was the guy that I had to chase up that
Dr G 42:36
this guy he starts the commotion against Iberia is cracking exactly,
Dr Rad 42:39
accidentally goo. Yeah. So I will always remember the name of NASA. And he has to
Dr G 42:45
go into exile essentially. Yeah. Ultimately, like he leaves to just escape the displeasure of the people. Yeah, this doesn’t ruin his career, and maybe sounds familiar as a patriarchal troop overall, you do something bad and you kind of have to leave, but your career keeps going anyway somehow, because he ends up you know, leading legation in Asia, and then dying and Pergamum tough times. Then we have Linus, who is potentially Gaius popularise Linus, who, you know, does some things, gets himself into trouble. He is condemned in Rome for entering into a treaty that allows the army to withdraw. And this is seen as like, just super problematic. They’re like, No, you should keep fighting. We’re out of here. So anyway, something about that political situation is controversial from a Roman spective and he has to go okay, Cicero sees it as unjust. Right? Or premieres. Lucia subpoenas feel like he’s saying he’s familiar as well. Yeah, it’s bound to be in 121 BCE. He was the console who secured the Sinatra’s consortium ultimum against Gaius Gracchus. Ah, okay. That’s right. So we haven’t encountered scenarios consultant ultimum Optima, I suppose there’s a thorough yet in this podcast, because it’s a political mechanism that doesn’t come into play for a long time. So I’m not going to get into the details of it here. But basically, what this does is it puts a premiers in a similar position, ultimately massacre, because the proceeds much violence, yes, and very violent against Gaius Gracchus, who was effectively outlawed. And this means that he ultimately gets prosecuted later on by opponents and he also has to leave Rome. So a PBS it doesn’t work out.
Dr Rad 44:42
Despite, anyway, if a guy is cracked as much either, but hey,
Dr G 44:46
it doesn’t work out for the Iraqi and it doesn’t work out for the people who oppose them either. And he also dies in exile. And then we have metallus. There’s lots of options. So who this metallus Could be because the Matabele are often getting themselves into trouble and ending up exiled So apologies in advance. This might not be Burma tell us, but we have Quintus, quite Caelius metallus pious skipio right on around 95 BCE. And he is one of the people that delivers anonymous letters to Cicero in 63. That warns of Caroline’s assassination plan. So he’s considered to be a really significant political figure. Yeah. But he then later on gets embroiled in a whole bunch of bribery, lawsuits. So we this is something that happens in the late Republic a lot. And the crime of bribery is really punished in the law courts and people are using it against each other all the time to try and get rid of their opponents and metallus falls prey to some of that, how true or not it might have been, we might get to but anyway, he ends up in exile. Right. So I mean, the main thread here is people ending up in exile. Gaius Marius, does he end up in exile? But I mean, he’s from Cicero’s account dealt with unjustly.
Dr Rad 46:05
Well, I mean, I guess there’s that whole period of Maurices career where he’s dealing with some pretty serious political rivals. And they both kind of go through periods where one is on the up and up and the other one falls down and the other one’s on the up and up and the other one falls down. We won’t go into all the detail. But yeah, he has some, he has some bad times, and some good times.
Dr G 46:24
He has a bad times and good times. So Cicero is pretty pro an elite position. So even though he is shocked, he’s a novice homo, as it were, a new man in Rome, has really bought into the like the Roman sort of ideology, yes. And unsurprising, perhaps, yeah. And he sees a holler as a classic example, going right back to the early period of somebody who is trying to save the state and is unjustly dealt with.
Dr Rad 46:51
So he’s gonna have some periods of his life where he feels that he is unjustly dealt with too.
Dr G 46:55
And so and this sort of leads into the scholarship around this. And there are really clear connections that you can see that Cicero is already building to the Iraqi, for instance, and the parallels between the green crisis that seems to be happening in the 430s BCE, and the green crisis that’s happening in like the 130s BC, and which
Dr Rad 47:19
is where the gracchi come into it as tribune of the plebs
Dr G 47:22
is India. And so spirits melee says story doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense, right. But it takes on even more significance. Yeah, and more sense making is tried to be made of it, as it were, in light of the events, yes, of the late second century. Oh, for sure. And so this means that the way that our sources are dealing with it, and this is kind of, it’s a real shame that I don’t have Dionysius of Halicarnassus right now, because I would love a Greeks perspective on what’s going on with the grain supply. We’ve got this sense that this story has been reworked and adapted as as needful in order to push home particular political perspectives that are coming from the elite.
Dr Rad 48:05
I have no doubt when there’s a green crisis involved, I’m pretty sure that it’s going to have something to do with the gracchi. Four sources that are written later, which most of our sources are,
Dr G 48:18
and it’s problematic as well, because of this idea of the emergency dictatorship element of it. Okay. And it’s like, the legitimacy of what a hauler has done. Oh, yeah. And potentially, what that means for Rome?
Dr Rad 48:32
Well, as you said, really, I think starting in around that time period, with the whole Malleus affair, we really are entering into an age of dictators, where it’s just like dictators like crawling out of the woodwork.
Dr G 48:46
Yeah, it’s gonna get more chaotic. Yeah, it’s pretty clear that there’s great instability in Rome’s political system. Yes. And we have the potential for certain private citizens of the patrician class. Yes, given leeway to engage in casual, open murder.
Dr Rad 49:07
Not what you often hear,
Dr G 49:08
just out and about. Yeah. And for them to not necessarily be wholly punished for it. It’s not like a hauler is ever brought into a law court to answer for this. Yeah, he’s allowed to run away and live and the attempt to confiscate his property. We’re not sure how that really ends?
Dr Rad 49:28
Yeah. Well, this is definitely I think it’s because the pestilence really distracts everybody because it seems to be very serious. But I must admit, I do find these episodes of Roman history particularly interesting, much more interesting than I used to, because I often do wonder. We know that no matter what we do about the current environmental crisis, that we are going to have some tough times ahead of us. Even if we manage to avert the level of warming, which would be like a tipping point where we really can’t come back. It’s just going to get harder. We managed to avert that We’ve still created enough issues for ourselves with the current level of warming, and also all the other crises that are associated with that, like pollution and overpopulation, all that kind of stuff, that we know that there are gonna be tough times ahead, regardless of what we do, which is why it’s really smart to do something about not getting over that tipping point that that’s another issue. But one of the things I think that will be an issue is food security. And certainly, for a lot of people in the world, unfortunately, food insecurity is their day to day existence. But for a lot of people in the developed world, I mean, I can safely say, I am privileged enough that I have never gone hungry, not for a single meal in my life, you know. And so I can only imagine the kind of political instability and the kind of political reaction to populations when they’re hungry when they’re starving. And so it kind of I’m always interested in these sorts of events, because I’m just like, I don’t know what our future will hold. As I’ve often said, on this podcast, we have this illusion of plenty when we go into supermarkets, and we see all this food. But we also have to keep in mind that we’re constantly overshooting the resources that this planet can produce for the amount of people that are on it. And that there may be times when we run short of certain things. In fact, I’m only saying maybe because I don’t want to sound like a panicky kind of thing. But I would almost wager there definitely will be times.
Dr G 51:21
Oh, I think there definitely will be. And I think you’re quite right to tie what we’re seeing in these histories to what is happening now. And even just as a small example, in Australia recently, because we had so much rain, which was so unseasonal, it did lead to problematic harvest of certain things like this got it sounds ridiculous. Let us in Kevin Yeah. And you couldn’t get a cabbage for less than $15 at some point. And you’re like, you know what, I don’t need to eat cabbage. It’s just not. And as long as those sorts of conditions continue to be unstable in terms of like, Australia is known as very dry continent. Yeah. But we have been swamped with rain. Yeah, on the back of and this has been, what three years running have like way, way, way too much rain for what this land can handle? Yeah. Versus what happened previous to that, which was devastating hot bushfires and drought and drought. Yeah. And we’re going through this, we’re seeing the cycles of becoming more unstable. And Rome is facing similar consequences, I think, but they’re living in a more stable climate. Yes. But the instabilities that are inherent in food supply have only been solved very recently in human history. Absolutely. And arguably, not everywhere, and not in a sustainable way at all.
Dr Rad 52:46
No. And that’s what I think it’s important to remember in terms of when we look at these episodes in history, there’s a temptation to be like, equate this starving, and therefore fighting amongst themselves. But it actually is something that people who were involved in looking at the implications of climate change and environmental crisis are looking at, because humans actually, we do get more temperamental when we’re when we’re hungry. There’s, there’s a lot of truth in that Snickers commercial. And so, yeah, you know, in all seriousness, it is one of those things where, yeah, people, people are more testy. And, obviously, governments responding to these sorts of crises. I mean, it’s a tough gig. And I think that also, you know, they tend to make more extreme decisions, because it’s a, it’s a pressing issue, like, we need food, and we need clean water. And that is why I get so frustrated, when people don’t pay attention to the issues that our environment is facing. Because, like we’ve seen with malleus, one of the things that he does is that when when green is in short supply in his area, he sends out to surrounding areas to try and secure the grain. And that’s how they come out of the crisis. But if every part of the world is increasingly going through these crises in our own time, who you’re going to call, yeah, like, who you’re going to turn to, if we’re if we are all increasingly going through this, it just gets more and more expensive and more and more ludicrous, that we’re reacting to problems. Rather than trying to be proactive and stop the crises from happening or making them less severe. It’s just insane. And I know there are a lot of people out there who are doing amazing things and props to you. But I just thought I have to have this issue because as you say, living in a country that we do, where we’re obviously going to be vulnerable to these sorts of extremes. The more that they become, you know, pulls put more and more poles apart. Just something that it’s good to pay attention to. I think,
Dr G 54:45
Man On that note, I think I think we’re done.
Dr Rad 54:48
I think we’re done into the rap. terrible problems. All right. So Dr. G, that means if we’re wrapping up this episode, it is time for another partial pay So this is the part of the podcast where we see how room has travelled in the last couple of years of Well, I suppose you’re in a bit and we write them out of five categories in each category. There are 10 Golden Eagles up for grabs that makes for a total of 50
Dr G 55:24
Hmm All right, our first category is military clout.
Dr Rad 55:30
Well, okay, there is some mention of the Romans you know, when in some stuff some bootay getting that tasty goat meat I guess or maybe sheep.
Dr G 55:41
Well, we’re how much weight are we giving to the things that in 437-436-0436
Dr Rad 55:47
Okay, all right, so
Dr G 55:51
we’re measuring for 36 Yeah, okay.
Dr Rad 55:53
Oh, yeah. For 37 It’s just like that recap controversy stuff we can leave that
Dr G 55:58
okay, military cloud Yeah, look, I’ve got nothing for that so well, whatever score you provide it is the one I will accept
Dr Rad 56:06
it’s very minimal detail there’s no big conflict with the enemy it’s literally just like rating there running across the border. They’re taking some stuff sounds
Dr G 56:15
like a one
Dr Rad 56:18
I think it’s gonna be a little bit more than that. I would maybe say like a four or five maybe Wow, that’s well I mean, I think we’re in like maybe four look, they got some slaves and they got some flocks. We might not morally agree with slavery, but for them that’s a winner.
Dr G 56:36
No stealing of sheep for it is alright, diplomacy.
Dr Rad 56:42
No.
Dr G 56:45
I see. And now understand how you want to live this stuff? Yeah. Expansion.
Dr Rad 56:50
I think they’re more just
Dr G 56:52
just going across as they’re taking some stuff. Oh, we’re to us.
Dr Rad 56:56
Not really. No. Yeah. Well, I
Dr G 57:00
suppose Well, our second spirit is Melee is trying to do the good word for his relative potentially or himself if He’s indeed come back from the dead.
Dr Rad 57:11
He’s giving it a good crack, but I don’t think what you could call he’s very half hearted to open
Dr G 57:15
up. I don’t know that. It’s half hearted.
Dr Rad 57:18
Basically, well received. To pass a law. I don’t know if you can class that as weird to us. No. Yeah. I mean, you know, I’ll give him snaps. That’s about it.
Dr G 57:31
All right. Nowhere to us. And the citizens score. It’s a plague isn’t it? Yeah. I mean, they do get the extra sheet before the slave
Dr Rad 57:43
slaves on the market and some goats or something. I just say flocks. I’m presuming because but yeah, so it was
Dr G 57:49
just good. Well, yeah, I
Dr Rad 57:51
think it’s typical that region, but anyway, we got a little bit of meat and slavery coming their way before before sickness, a serious one, like serious enough for them to turn to the civil handbook. So like, This is bad. A one I think. I think one because who wins with slavery? No one No one, which means that Dr. G, our total which I can count on all right, and is five Golden Eagles for berm. how the mighty have fallen, because last episode, it was actually a pretty decent score.
Dr G 58:23
Yeah, well, they did amazing things on the battlefield last time. Yeah. Oh, five. Certainly is and one which in terms of points where it was currently losing?
Dr Rad 58:35
Yeah, absolutely. So on that rather depressing nose. I will bid you adieu, Dr. G. Fair. You Well, yeah. But we’ll promise more exciting things to come. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. We’d like to give a special shout out today some of our latest Patreon, as well, Lydia, Amanda and D’Andrea, you too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. And now you get to see us in some of our recording sessions. There are other ways that you can support our show. We have a cofee account, or you can just spread the word by buying and wearing some of our merchandise or support our collaboration with the talented Bridget Clark, who has been helping us to produce some artwork on Gumroad. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Seneca's Medea with MythTake
Sep 29, 2022
Medea is one of the most memorable characters in Greek mythology. She is powerful, has associations with magic, and capable of taking drastic action. Most people are familiar with the version of Medea crafted by the Athenian playwright Euripides, but today we turn to a lesser known interpretation.
Special Episode – Seneca’s Medea with MythTake
Seneca’s Medea
A quick synopsis may be handy before diving into the episode!
Prior to the play
Medea is a semi-divine princess of Colchis (a land on the shores of the Black Sea). As a young woman, Medea fell in love with Jason while he is on his quest for the Golden Fleece. Medea used her gifts to aid Jason in completing the impossible tasks set by her father, King Aeëtes. Medea helped Jason to yoke the fiery bulls, win a competition with the giants, and slay the dragon that guarded the Fleece. In her love for Jason, she defied her father and decides to run away with him to Greece. To escape unnoticed from Cholcis, Medea kills her brother to distract her father. From there Jason and Medea travelled together to meet Pelias, king of Iolcus, who had agreed to give Jason his throne if he returned with the Fleece. But when Pelias saw the Fleece he refused to fulfil the agreement. Jason and Medea then worked together to bring about the downfall of Pelias, but needed to flee Iolcus after suspicion falls upon them. They finally settled in Corinth and have two sons.
So Jason and Medea are bound together, not only by their children and their marriage, but by acts of violence which were often planned together but executed by Medea with her semi-divine skills and pharmaka (knowledge of herbs and drugs). A healthy relationship, this is not!
Medea in Seneca’s play
Jump ahead a few years and, in order to climb the political ladder, Jason decides to leave his marriage with Medea to marry Creusa the daughter of King Kreon of Thebes. The play opens with Medea cursing both Creusa and Kreon and seeking time to prepare for her exile. Kreon grants Medea one day before she is exiled which she immediately uses to plan her revenge on Jason for leaving her after everything they’ve been through together.
She laces a stunning robe with poison and sends it to Creusa as a gift for her wedding with Jason. The Chorus describe Medea’s rage and frustration in great detail and pray to the gods that Jason is spared from her vengeance. But Medea’s pharmaka is extensive and the robe kills Creusa by catching on fire when she puts it on. Kreon tries to save his daughter but he catches on fire too when he touches the robe. But in the wake of their deaths, Medea does not feel any better; her need for vengeance remains. Medea resolves to sacrifice their children in a final act to help Jason understand the depth of pain he has caused by leaving her. This blood sacrifice seems to transform her and to reveal her divine form, as Medea escapes in a dragon chariot while she throws the bodies of the boys down to Jason. Jason observes that there are no gods because otherwise such acts would be impossible.
Seneca the Younger
Seneca the Younger was a Stoic philosopher who witnessed a lot of the ups and downs of the Julio-Claudian emperors during his lifetime. After a couple of trips into exile, Seneca ended up rising to a position of immense influence. He was appointed tutor of Nero, the son of Agrippina the Younger and adopted heir of her husband, the emperor Claudius. When Nero succeeded Claudius, Seneca experienced a career high in the early years of his reign. However, stability was not a feature of Nero’s rule, and Seneca was eventually forced to commit suicide by his former pupil. As we consider Seneca’s Medea, it’s worth considering how his context influenced his work. Certainly he has plenty of strong women to draw upon from his own experience and the recent politics of ancient Rome!
If there’s two things that we love, it’s women in the ancient world and the Julio-Claudian period in Rome. So understandably, we jumped at the chance to talk to Alison Innes and Darrin Sunstrum from the MythTake podcast about Seneca the Younger’s interpretation of Medea.
What did this man make of Medea’s story? Tune in to find out!
Frederick Sandys between 1866 and 1868. Medea Medea has a connection with pharmaka and this idea sets up her early interaction with Jason and has numerous consequences.
John Downman 1750-1824 An Episode from the Story of Jason and Medea. Medea ascends to a higher plane after her suffering and Jason is left to bear the consequences of his choices.
John William Waterhouse 1907. Jason and Medea Jason watches on as Medea utilises her skills in pharmaka in order to aide his quest to obtain the golden fleece.
Automated Transcript
Generated by Otter AI with some light editing! We know the Greek and Latin can be tough for automated transcripts, so apologies in advance for inadvertent mistakes (hopefully they’ll make you giggle!).
Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to a special episode of The Partial Historians. Today we sit down with the hosts of the amazing podcast MythTake to discuss all aspects of Seneca the Younger’s Medea. We hope that you enjoy
Alison Innes 0:40 Good morning.
Darrin Sunstrum 0:41 Good afternoon.
Alison Innes 0:42 Good evening,
Darrin Sunstrum 0:43 and good night.
Alison Innes 0:45 Welcome to a another episode of MythTake,
Darrin Sunstrum 0:48 A fresh take on ancient myths.
Alison Innes 0:50 We still got it, Darren.
Darrin Sunstrum 0:53 It’s been a while. I forgot.
Alison Innes 0:54 It has been it has been a little while since we have done an episode. But I am really excited about tonight’s episode. We have two special guests from halfway around the world joining us by the virtue of or by the miracle of technology. We have Dr. Fiona Radford and Dr. Peta Greenfield from The Partial Historians podcast. They are experts in ancient Rome, which we are very much not experts. They look at various aspects of Roman life and reception in their own podcast Partial Historians. So we’re very pleased to have you. Hello.
Dr Rad 1:31 Hey, thank you so much for having us.
Dr G 1:34 That was Dr Rad!
Dr Rad 1:36 To distinguish my voice.
Dr G 1:38 We’ll just set that up straight. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:40 Any stupid thing said by this voice are the property of Dr. Radford.
Dr G 1:45 And I’m Dr. G, thank you so much for having us.
Alison Innes 1:48 Well, we are very pleased to be connecting with you and I’m glad that we could work out the timezone difference. We’re recording from Canada, as usual, in Ontario, and you’re all the way around in Australia. So I we’re very glad to be connecting with you.
Dr Rad 2:01 It’s a it’s a Commonwealth podcast.
Alison Innes 2:04 Yes. Yes, that truly international.
Dr Rad 2:06 Exactly.
Alison Innes 2:07 And I’m also excited to have you because we are going to talk about Medea, which everybody who listens to this probably knows by now is one of my favourite characters, but we’re going to do it a little bit differently and have a look at Seneca’s, Medea, and Darren and I are not as strong. Well, Darren, Darren knows knows this play better than I do. I have never formally taught or really studied this play. So I’m kind of, I’m the real student here. But we are really excited to have some Roman experts on board for this conversation.
Dr Rad 2:38 Excellent. Let’s get into it.
Dr G 2:40 Yeah, so I think we should start with just a consideration briefly of who is Medea. Let’s locate Seneca within the context of the subject matter.
Dr Rad 2:50 Yeah, true.
Alison Innes 2:51 All right. Well, Medea goes back a very long ways. Darren, do you want to give us a quick rundown on on her mythology?
Darrin Sunstrum 2:58 Well, in Medea, yeah. Like you said, she’s one of those sort of older characters that that, you know, been probably kicking around since the Archaic period, more than likely. We, we encounter her at least on the Greek side of things in Euripides work about 431 BC. There were other playwrights like Nephron, for example, that wrote about Medea as a figure from this woman from Colchis from the Black Sea region, who is a foreigner, barbarian and mysterious sort of “Other” type character with associations and magic. And then her relationship with Jason and the Argonauts, which is a very old myth. Right, is picked up and, you know, use time and time again. So we see Medea, you know, in different iterations and tragedy, and lyric poetry, you know, here in our discussion with Seneca all the way into the Imperial Roman period, which I don’t live in very much, but so it’s a long stretch of time to have, you know, one sort of character called Medea. And you know what she is, and I think everyone knows what she’s probably most responsible for, or her infamy or her fame. So, you know, she’s a non-Greek character, but a very compelling and powerful female heroine in a catalogue of heroes that are primarily male.
Dr Rad 4:26 Yeah, the Romans seem to really be attracted to the story of Medea. I mean, obviously, when I say attracted, I don’t necessarily mean in a hugely positive way. Because as you say, she is quite infamous. But yeah, they definitely seem to enjoy going back and back to the story of Medea.
Dr G 4:43 And I think there’s something very compelling about Medea’s story as well because bound up with it is the whole spectrum of human feeling. From everything from intense attraction and affection and love to like the bitterest of human sorrow possible. And she captures this within the arc of her life. And so there are so many elements of her story, I think, that people can hook into and repurpose. And when we talk about attraction, I think it’s that compulsion. It’s almost like things become so devastating in her life and in her mythic tales, that it’s hard to look away.
Alison Innes 5:24 Yeah. And there’s there are some key events that all of the different authors who we have, and presumably, from what I’ve read, there were a lot more plays and tales about Medea in the ancient world than survive that then have come down to us. But the broad outline, of course, is that Jason shows up with his Argonauts and he needs to get the Golden Fleece. Medea betrays her father and helps them out and in their flight from Chlocis back to Greece with Jason. She marries him and kills her brother. And then we are of course, located in Corinth, where Jason is now married the princess, but depending on which author you have, there’s different nuances and different interpretations and different details for each of those. So it’s a really flexible story that gets retold in a lot of different ways.
Dr G 6:22 Yeah, and I think we see this coming through with Seneca’s Medea, it’s a very formal kind of play. Very Roman, I would say in its structure. If we’re, inevitably people will make comparisons with Seneca’s work with the very famous Euripides play. And they’re very different in structure, even though some of the messaging is similar. They get to the conclusion in very different ways. And one of the things that I think that tells us about Medea is just how she can be reinterpreted consistently over time for different audiences, while keeping some core features of the story. But while also shifting a lot of the contextual details around how that story unfolds,
Darrin Sunstrum 7:08 I like that because like, like, like any good myth, it’s true. It’s sort of adapts its dynamic, and it sort of serves its shape sort of fills the vessel in. And by that, I mean, it serves the audience at the time, or at least the narrator’s agenda, whatever that might be. So I think the Medea characters are really plastic in that way.
Dr G 7:26 Yeah. So I think it’s probably a good place to think about just the basic plot of Seneca’s play. And we sort of we start off with a conversation happening outside between Medea she’s alone on stage, actually, I should say, it’s not a conversation just yet. But she’s sort of like locating herself through this kind of soliloquy.
Dr Rad 7:52 She does like to have conversations with herself,
Dr G 7:54 She does like to have conversations, there’s, it’s a very, it’s a very ancient play thing to do. Popular all the way through for centuries, really discussing sort of positioning the audience to understand history in a particular way, and help everybody come to grips with where we’re at where we’re up to in her life. And she’s in Corinth. And this is a very typical place for plays about Medea to start as well. But from there, we sort of get into a whole sequence of events. And Seneca seems to like a sort of a really particular structure to his plays. And some editors of the Latin collections do like to divide it up like that, as well. So it feels like that we have distinct scenes, even though we’re not really sure what any of the stage directions might have been. And so one of the really important character devices in Seneca’s Medea is the role of the Chorus and the way that they tend to set up how you might interpret a particular set of action. And they also tend to be a marker point for a change of scene as well, either towards the end or towards the beginning. So the chorus has a lot to do with this. And we see this sort of like ebb and flow between Medea expressing herself having a conversation with Kreon, the king of Corinth about needing time before her exile takes place, having a conversation with Jason, where he’s kind of like, you gotta get out of here. And she’s like, I need more time to get organised. Where am I gonna go how I’m gonna live my life? And it’s like, it’s really important that you leave. And she’s like, you know, You dumped me, right? I don’t know that I should necessarily be bearing the brunt of your poor decision making because the reason why she has been asked to leave is she’s now the third wheel, essentially, in her own life.
Dr Rad 9:48 Yeah, Jason no longer needs her. I mean, he’s he’s got a new wife and you shiny wife,
Dr G 9:51 Jason’s about to marry a woman. He hasn’t really told Medea about that. She’s found out because she’s about to be exiled. Like you need to leave and she’s like, Excuse me?
Dr Rad 10:00 if only all breakups could go this way.
Alison Innes 10:04 Medea is really front and centre in this play too. Not only does she start off with the with the opening, but I have cannot put my finger on the exact statistic at the moment, but she has the vast majority of speaking lines in this play. So it’s very much her driving the story.
Dr Rad 10:22 Oh, massively, it’s definitely the Medea show. It definitely puts her more forward than you Euripides did, even though obviously, she’s a huge part of Euripides as well.
Dr G 10:32 But we do get some sense from the sort of secondary characters that there are some concerns about how she’s coping with the situation that she finds herself in. Rightly so as it turns out, so there’s some good foreshadowing presented through the character of the Nurse, and discussions that happen that relate to the tutor of the children, they’ve got some concerns about what’s happening. And fair enough. She’s not taking things well. And she makes that abundantly clear through her spoken time on stage as well. But she does manage to negotiate with Kreon to have a day to get herself organised. And she makes it pretty clear early on that she’s going to use this for vengeance. This is a pretty standard moment for Medea in terms of her representation in literature, first of all, buying the time, and then being like, Alright, now for the plan. And she does the grand reveal of well, the plan is this, it’s going to be bad. And I’m looking forward to it, you know, I’m going to find a way to poison that new wife. And then I’m going to take things to the next level because you know, who’s really responsible here, Jason? Jason is the real issue.
Dr Rad 11:44 I kind of disagree with her in someways.
Dr G 11:46 In that sense. It’s a very modern kind of representation as well. She refuses to take a sort of a victim blaming position. I mean, she does take vengeance against the second wife. Yeah, that is all part of her plan to take down Jason. It inevitably, it goes well, in the sense that it all happens.
Dr Rad 12:07 Yeah, the plan works!
Dr G 12:08 The plan works. That might be the worst part of all, perhaps.
Dr Rad 12:12 And bonus points. She takes out Kreon when she takes out the new wife. Oh, yeah, they go down together. Yeah.
Dr G 12:21 Father steps into try to save the daughter: doesn’t go well. This is all described vividly by people who come into the play to like deliver messages. And we end up at this final set piece, which is the moment where she executes the children that she and Jason have produced together. One of them directly in front of Jason.
Dr Rad 12:44 Which again, is in contrast to what happens in Euripides’ play as far as we can tell where the murder of the children would happen offstage.
Dr G 12:53 Yeah. So there is a transition of the violence to the stage.
Alison Innes 12:58 Yeah, and Jason’s Jason’s a very different character as well in Seneca as I know, we’re trying not to compare but it’s really really it’s very difficult not to but he’s been his circumstances different he’s not marrying the princess so much out of love or desire to step up in the world. But he can only get safety for them if from Kreon if he is marrying Kreon’s daughter. So there’s, there’s a different there’s a different motivation behind the marriage, correct?
Darrin Sunstrum 13:29 Yeah, there’s something like that going on self preservation, the mood is very different, right, the function that fibre framework is very different from an Attic drama, like Medea is in your face, like right at the very beginning, and she doesn’t leave your face, till you know, she’s stepping in the chariot. So like, you know, you get a little Jason and you get a little Kreon and you get some Chorus thrown in, but, you know, she’s right your eyes for the whole play. And it’s not like Euripides where, you know, some of there’s some circular motion lines and characters are coming and going slightly. And there’s negotiation with chorus. But But here in Seneca’, it’s Medea from from beginning to end. And it’s extremely compelling. But like I said, there’s a very different type of Jason that’s being presented here. A lot of people like to throw a lot of dirt on Jason and Euripides. I’m not a big fan of that. But here in Seneca he’s a pretty sympathetic character, at least from my reading of it, you know, he’s he can’t do much of anything but but suffer. Right? But you know, that in the face of such overwhelming hatred and violence, what can what can one man do you know, even if he is the hero of the Argo, right? Who Medea lays out quite plainly in Seneca that not only does Jason, owe his success as a hero, but so does every single Argonaut on that expedition also, you know, all their success to her, you know that that’s pretty hard to overlook.
Alison Innes 15:02 And so many of them have come to unfortunate ends.
Darrin Sunstrum 15:04 And they have. Medea in the Seneca play too. There’s something strange and about it in the sense that you can get overwhelmed with lots of the magic and the details and the artefacts and so on in the terrible ferocity of that character. That sort of when I use the word terrible I don’t mean in a in a moralistic way I mean awe inspiring power. And she has a number of moments of that are transformative within the play itself. Euripides’ Medea is much more of a slow reveal. I think Seneca is is has those but there’s blinding flashes where she’s no longer herself in the play become something much more terrible. I use that word again. So yeah, I just like I like the contrasting element of and I really did enjoy revisiting Seneca’s Medea again.
Alison Innes 15:54 Well, his Medea is much more emotional and passionate right from the beginning, I would say and, and I wonder, does this have to do with Senecas own philosophical leanings?
Dr Rad 16:07 Yeah, I think I think this is probably a good time to talk a little bit about who Seneca actually was, and maybe give him a bit of historical context, because that could possibly help us to decode his interpretation of Medea a little bit. So as I think you guys mentioned earlier, Seneca is writing much later than Euripides. He was born as far as we can tell, towards the end part of Augustus’ life, and therefore he got to see a little bit of Augustus, but he was probably, obviously a child, then he certainly would have experienced the reigns of Tiberius, Caligula, and then most famously, Claudius and Nero. Now, it’s probably worth mentioning that there has been a bit of dispute about whether Seneca actually authored a lot of these plays that are ascribed to him, but we weren’t worried going into that.
Dr G 16:56 Let’s not create too much touble for ourselves!
Dr Rad 16:58 We’re not gonna go into that. But presuming that he did write this particular play that we’re looking at. It’s very possibly something that he wrote, whilst he was in exile during the first half of the Emperor Claudius’ reign.
He had gotten himself into a little bit of trouble.
Alison Innes 17:17 Yes, adultery was-
Dr Rad 17:20 Yeah, he fell afoul of both Caligula and Claudius, for very different reasons. As at least, that’s what the sources tell us. There is something I think to be said for the fact that he might be exploring certain themes relating to his own experiences under the Julio-Claudians, which we can come back to in a sec. But he’s also most famous, obviously, and this is probably what you were getting at Alison, for his very stoic philosophy, is that what you were referring to in terms of his own beliefs?
Dr G 17:48 Yeah, and, and so like that stoicism that is coming, that sort of underpins a lot of his writing, I think we can see the effects of this in terms of the way that he structures his plays, and also the kinds of messages he might be trying to have the audience take away. The one of the key ideas that really drives the Stoic framework is like how you think about the way that you feel really shapes everything about your world. And that becomes like, a piece of advice as a stepping stone for like, well, how can I think about the world and my feelings in a way that might be reasonable and useful to me. And what we see in Medea is a character, and indeed, a whole cast of characters very much bound up in their emotions and trying to figure out how to respond to them. And while Medea is obviously the central figure in all of this, she is by no means the only character who is trying to figure out how to respond to their feelings about the world. She eventually places Jason in that position. And he also details moments of his own struggle with reaching the decision to take another woman as a wife. And we also see Kreon and his concerns about you know, wanting to have a stable situation, which is only possible if Medea is no longer there physically in the city.
Dr Rad 19:19 How interesting that she was being exiled while Seneca was himself in exile…
Dr G 19:26 Could there be a parallel?
Alison Innes 19:29 And Seneca had an interesting life in the course of his kind of rise to prominence and exile and return because he’s he was originally from Spain, was he not? And he spent time in Egypt as well. So presumably, he would have been exposed to various versions of this story from various sources from different places.
Dr G 19:52 Yeah, so he, I mean, he ends up in Rome as a child and is educated there. But as you say, he is born in Hispania. And so there is a sense in which this is a period in Roman history where there’s a lot of shifting from the periphery into the centre. And we get a sense that one of the ways that you could read this play is also through that idea of the outsider versus the insider. And Seneca, for all of his education, to what extent does he consider himself absolutely a Roman? is a good question to ask. And he becomes very involved in the imperial family and the legacy. And this might play into things as well. So like being close to power, how you self identify could produce interesting resonances for how he thinks about Medea. And to what extent he might empathise with her situation, on a certain level.
Dr Rad 20:52 We’re especially dealing with Kreon as well, I believe there might be some messages there as well about how a ruler conducts themselves, which as I said, probably might have might have had something to do with his personal situation because he does seem to fall afoul of Caligula, perhaps because he’s a little too good with the words.
Dr G 21:10 Hello!
Dr Rad 21:11 Yeah. And then And then, of course, he seems to be caught up in some sort of sexual scandal or at least suspected sexual scandal with Claudius’ nieces and Caligula sisters aren’t really-
Dr G 21:24 You always have to be careful of those sorts of notions. And yeah, political invective, often takes the form of this kind of sexual innuendo. Yeah, and sort of salacious accusations. So it’s hard to know.
Dr Rad 21:38 I think it’s fair to say, though, based on his other writings, because he did obviously take a lot of this time, eight years to write, he definitely wasn’t happy about being exiled. And funnily enough, you know, he might have been channelling a bit of Ovid, who also read extensively about Medea and was exiled.
Dr G 21:56 And if there’s anything that we know about Seneca is that he is a very literary man,
Dr Rad 22:01 Definitely.
Dr G 22:01 And he structures a lot of his writings, Stoic and otherwise it seems, around a conscious engagement with literary tradition. So I think it’s a real shame, actually, that we don’t have Ovid’s Medea as a point of comparison. Ovid is a very engaging and nuanced writer. And to be able to compare those two plays from a Roman perspective would be amazing, I think, for all of the things that are very interesting about Seneca’s play, if you asked me. If I wanted to go to the theatre to watch Seneca’s production of Medea I would probably say no.
Darrin Sunstrum 22:39 For what reason?
Dr G 22:41 I don’t find her a psychologically compelling version of Medea in this play. And it’s weird because it’s not like the plot is necessarily different. Yeah, in all of its sort of overarching points from say Euripides, but reading Euripides, together with Seneca, I would go and see Euripides’ Medea, in an instant, it feels like there is a real psychological insight and development of character of Medea onstage in Euripides. And I feel like what we get in Seneca, for me as a as a modern person in the 21st century, it doesn’t feel psychologically compelling. It feels very literary. And it feels very Imperial Roman, and I can appreciate it on those levels. But it doesn’t feel powerful in that way.
Dr Rad 23:30 That does raise the question as well about how much Seneca actually ever envisioned this play being performed, per se as a play? And how much was it meant to be recited or read? If you know what I mean.
Alison Innes 23:44 I was just about to ask. I was just about to ask him about that. And you beat me to it. Yeah. So it seems that it was a bit of a trend as well that at some point, literary men would dabble in writing, writing a tragedy, but it wasn’t necessarily intended for performance and sometimes intended for reading, which is would be a slightly different approach.
Dr G 24:09 Yeah. And I think we can see that almost instantly in the depth of like intertextual and mythological referencing that’s going on in Seneca’s piece. Like, it’s not an easy read. I went into this preparation, thinking, Ah, you know, I’ll sit down with Euripides, I’ll sit down with Seneca and then I was like, oh, no, oh, no, I got to Seneca and I was like, I need a critical edition of this work. Like there is it is very dense in the sort of information that it’s offering line by line, in some cases, in whole speeches where you’re like, Okay, if I can’t piece together this whole mythological web that is being offered to me, I’m going to have a very difficult time understanding the nuance of what Seneca is trying to get at here. And that makes it a play that is not for people who are just going to the theatre for a good time, or people who are not really quite across all of this mythological depth that Seneca is bringing to the table here.
Alison Innes 25:14 Yeah, it’s like he’s showing off a little bit about his own depth and breadth of knowledge of the myth. And you mentioned Ovid earlier. And we unfortunately don’t have his Medea. That’s what that that’s one of those plays that, you know, if you could save one thing from the ancient world, right, but he does deal with the myth as well, in the Metamorphosis, and in Heroides as well. And I know Darren is pretty familiar with those sources.
Darrin Sunstrum 25:42 Well, yeah, a little bit. I reread Heroides 12. You know, we’re not talking about it exclusively today. But like in that, in that sort of, era, you know, in that area, as far as a Roman author who’s concerned dealing with this topic, it’s not a play, obviously, it’s the letters, you know, the between Jason and Medea, in this case, it’s Medea writing to Jason. That’s a very different one and very different to, to speak about, because it’s, there’s not a lot of agreement on whether or not it’s of even a tragic tone. Some people think that it’s that it’s a more satirical or comic but you know, there’s, there’s definitely no love lost between the two, that’s for sure, in that letter.
Dr G 26:28 Yeah, this is true. And and I think the thing to me that’s really interesting about the way that Ovid is navigating Medea in that letter is that it does feel like she’s attempting to come to grips with everything about her life in a way that that does encompass some of the anger. But letter writing itself allows for moments of reflection, which when we think about what happens with a play, a play is more like, well, we’ve got to jump from the thought to the action quite quickly. Having people write letters, for instance, or have a journal doesn’t really work so much on stage. And so the letter is able to accomplish something that I’d be interested to. Yeah, now I need Ovid’s Medea: the play.
Alison Innes 27:20 Maybe somebody will be unwrapping a mummy somewhere and they will find, will find it!
Darrin Sunstrum 27:26 You know, what struck me as I read, the sequence that we read them sometimes affects your perception of them. So I had read Heroides 12 in preparation, and then a couple of days passed, and then I read over the course of two nights, Seneca’s play, and that one two punch there was very striking in the sense that one I have Euripides, of course, in my mind. But when I read Heroides 12, when I read Ovid, Medea, in that one is leaving the door open very often for a return to this sort of idealised husband and wife situation to she wants Jason to come back to her on a number of occasions. And I was kind of struck by that. And then when I went into Seneca, you know, you don’t really get it, there’s like a line, there’s like one line, after you know, Kreon comes and Medea talks to him. And Jason comes back and she says something like, “Castus is coming. One King is against us, there’s another. Come with me. And, you know, the two of us together will will will flee, right?” And I went whoa, really? Even after all that magic and hatred and passion and, and everything else. She still she still says to Jason like one line. Let’s let’s leave together. Jason says, No, obviously. But her her response to him there I thought was like wild because everything else is all snakes and fire. And then in one line she’s like, but you might want to come in it’ll, it’ll preserve you right now preserve you.
Dr G 29:07 And I think that’s the thing about Medea that that makes her such a compelling character, to be honest, because that what she has always longed for, is to be with Jason. And that has shaped the way that she behaves in response to everybody around her. And so there’s this sort of compulsive codependency for her, which she she finds it impossible to break and despite her anger and her frustration and the remorse that seems to be quite genuine at times that she feels for the acts that she has committed in pursuit of this relationship. She still ultimately it doesn’t mean anything for her if he doesn’t stay and in a way that that gives her I mean, that’s part of the tragedy of it. But it also gives us a really keen insight into into her state of mind. She has to double down and when she can’t, and that that’s taken away from her as well. It sort of pushes her beyond the sort of thresholds of morality as we tend to see them.
Dr Rad 30:21 But that’s why I agree. I actually do agree with you, Dr. G. I have I when I read I read both Euripides’ Medea and I read Seneca’s Medea in preparation for this episode. And I have to agree with you that even though there are some interesting elements to Seneca, I agree with you that I don’t find Medea as psychologically compelling, because she just comes out all guns blazing from the get go. She is so strong, and she is less sympathetic. I think, for me, looking back, I know Euripides is very complicated and the way that he handles her status both as you know, as a potential barbarian as this person who’s not exactly like what you you know, like a mortal woman or anything, like there’s obviously a lot of complexity there, which I just think is lacking in Seneca to a certain extent and I think feel
Dr G 30:42 Because you don’t get that character build
Dr Rad 31:16 No and you don’t get that arc of her actions, you know, of what path is she actually going to take. But I see much more coming through Seneca’s Medea, him dealing with that classic Stoic idea of the need to moderate emotion to, to learn how to deal with an emotion as powerful as anger, and the disaster that can result if people don’t learn to, to handle that in a in a productive way or, or a way of handling your emotions, in a sense of what point is that in getting so worked up over situations that you yourself, have no control over? You cannot control? What you know what the king is doing. You can’t control what Jason is doing here? Why are you getting yourself so worked up about this, look at what happens when you allow emotions like love and rage to run rampant?
Alison Innes 32:13 Yeah. And I think he’s definitely showing us the danger of passionate love that it’s a very, it’s it and this violent anger are two sides of the same coin. And that in some ways, her anger shows how deeply she loves, as you say, she’s she’s unable to step back from that and to, to detach herself that she’s, she, when one source I read described it as she’s opened a hole in in in the wall of herself. And that both lets Jason in, but it also means that it makes her weaker for that. And that. So she turns to these to this passionate anger, when that love doesn’t work out how she wants it to.
Darrin Sunstrum 32:58 Well, you know, there’s something about that Medea and Seneca that I think we’re either overlooking or attributing to something else. And, you know, I think simply might be, you know, it’s uniquely Roman in the sense that especially a connected Roman, like Seneca, who’s used to being in the presence of powerful figures, like an emperor like Nero, you know, like, you got to know how to walk around these guys, you got to know how to talk, you got to know how to keep them, you know, at bay, but because they they’re extremely powerful, like with a whim, like Medea, they could destroy you. And we’ve seen We’ve seen what’s happened there, their hair triggers, they’re like the opposite at times of what it means to be Stoic. So like if a character like Medea in this play is someone who’s like bottled lightning, you know, they’re a lot like a Roman imperial figure themselves. And the character of Jason and Kreon and all the rest of them are just the people that are in the orbit of someone with incredible imperial power. You know, you, they Medea goes through a transformation at the beginning, she asked herself, who am I? And then about, I don’t know, like Act Four, I guess she says, I am Medea. And that means something completely different. When we look at that concept, there’s that heroic concept or theological concept called Art to Kea, right. And that means, like a complete sort of release of freedom, a shedding of the bonds, where you become something that is, you know, that requires no support, you know, like, like, what does an emperor need? Nothing, because they have everything. Right. So that’s a transformative moment. That’s something that struck me when when I read Seneca along with all the witchcraft and the crazy stuff that was in there, too, but
Dr G 34:49 I think this is a fantastic sort of perspective to to adopt this idea of Medea as like the Imperial figure,
Dr Rad 34:57 and how intriguing that she that Seneca might have used a track like Medea to try and teach nearer to, you know, reign it in, reign it in.
Dr G 35:05 but also as a warning to like because this allows you then to read Jason, as the guy that bumbles through the Imperial Court, and is the Senecan figure who gets himself exiled.
Darrin Sunstrum 35:20 feel like, well correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Ovid sort of do the same sort of thing, when like in his Metamorphosis as an overarching theme, is it not really sort of like a treatment in some ways about: Be careful who you upset because, you know, if they transform you like the gods themselves, right, these encounters with these powerful beings, sometimes they’re good, sometimes they’re bad, but they’re always met them. They’re always changing. They’re always about metamorphosis, right? Like, that could also apply if we use that as a, as a model for Seneca in some regards as a somewhat of that era. Maybe
Dr G 35:58 Definitely. And Medea herself is, is going through her own transformation all the time. And this is something that Seneca has definitely leveraged from Euripides and surely has been popular from Euripides onwards, this idea that Medea is not simply a mortal woman, that she that the divine streak in her is significant, and it will have really particular effects. And it means that she goes beyond in many respects, what anybody thinks that she could be capable of.
Dr Rad 36:34 I think that’s one thing that did strike me more front and centre in Seneca is that emphasis on on the witchcraft and the connections to like Hecate and that kind of thing. Whilst Euripides doesn’t obviously neglect to mention those aspects to Medea, I feel like she comes across as much more of a quote unquote, “normal woman” in the situation that she’s in, up into the point up to the point where she flies away.
Alison Innes 36:59 Yeah, it’s interesting. There’s, there’s almost a continuum from Euripides’ Medea Medea through to Apollonius Rhodius’ Argonautica. And then to this play, like building on that, on that witchcraft. In Apollonius, he pulls out a lot more of that magic aspect of her. Now granted, it’s not this episode that he’s dealing with but with with the other episodes he deals with, he he pulls out that magic, but it’s almost an innocent mass. And like almost as though she’s a young girl who doesn’t quite know what she’s doing. Whereas here in Seneca’s Medea, we have a mature Medea, who knows exactly what she’s exactly what she’s doing. And, and the magic, the way it’s described feels much more nefarious to me and then than it did in the Argonautica.
Dr Rad 37:55 I think it’s so interesting that Seneca is emphasising that angle. I mean, it’d be completely anachronistic, obviously to say anything about Agrippina the Younger here, because of course, it’s before she potentially murders Claudius using those sorts of elements. But certainly, what Seneca might have witnessed in Imperial Rome, I mean, this is the age of Lucasta, the poisoner, you know, it’s not like these methods of particularly women, eliminating people that wouldn’t be unknown to him, I would say.
Dr G 38:26 Yeah, there are definitely rumours about this kind of thing. And there are definitely you there are street corners, where you can find these people selling their skill set, as it were. But I do like this consideration of the fact that Medea in Seneca’s play and also in Euripides, because well, we’re seeing her at that edge in both of these plays, is that she is in the mature phase of her life, you know, she has become a mother herself. She’s married, you know, she’s lived a good deal of her adult life. Whereas the thing that is the landmark for her in terms of how her life unfolds, is potentially a mistake of a young woman, potentially on the cusp of adulthood, taking a risk for a boy that she liked. And it being the mistake that sets off in consequence, the rest of her life in a tragic fashion. And because the mistakes start to build,
Dr Rad 39:30 oh, don’t look, I mean, it’s I’m being completely anachronistic, but I can’t help but look at it through the eyes of, you know, a modern person and it does it does sound like that old story of that girl that got mixed up with that guy started doing things that she didn’t really want to, you know, didn’t not knows maybe not and didn’t want to do but start doing things that she might not have done if not for him. And Medea does seem to she does dwell on those things that she did, obviously, as you said earlier, she does keep thinking about, “But I did these things for you; I did these things for us. And And now where are we?”
Dr G 40:03 Yeah, so she gets trapped in like a sort of a young woman psychology where she hasn’t come into her full sense of herself. And she does make a choice, which, initially, I mean, it doesn’t seem so bad. You know, she’s helping a boy out that the monsters are involved. And it’s like, you know, there’s no, there’s no big risks there. I mean, the monsters are risky, but like in terms of like, the moral question, yeah, like, you can overlook that and be like, well, you know, somebody had to deal with the dragon. But that sort of slides into like, Okay, well, how are we going to get out of here? We now need to leave.
Dr Rad 40:38 Yeah.
Dr G 40:38 And that leads to a really pivotal moment,
Dr Rad 40:42 Which totally haunts her definitely.
Dr G 40:44 Yeah. And she’s, she does seem to be haunted by the treatment of her brother and how she has navigated that. And that’s the thing that really cements that situation between Jason and Medea, I think far more so than the acquisition of the Fleece itself.
Alison Innes 41:00 And it’s interesting that her story with Jason begins with subduing the monster, the monster serpent guarding the and then she becomes a monster herself in the way that Seneca presents it. She is monstrous, and she goes off, she she calls on serpents again. And this this serpent angle, I think is really interesting. But she calls on serpents again, and the winged chariot and all of that, and she becomes something monstrous herself.
Dr G 41:34 Yeah, there’s this lovely motif of serpents that is running through Seneca’s Medea and which is obviously supposed to remind the audience of that initial moment between her and Jason and and what she has done there. And then we start to see that sort of visualisation of Medea in the serpent chariot, which is coming through in vaseware from like, even like, sort of like, at the same time as we’re getting Euripides play in Greece, we’re seeing red figure ware from Southern Italy, which has the same kind of imagery on it. So it’s just astounding, the way that that serpent motif continues to develop and evolve.
Darrin Sunstrum 42:16 Yeah, it was all sorts of monsters and scaled horrors, and different types of poisons, and different sort of iterations of the power of fire, that struck me as interesting. You know, about how, you know, venom and fire and poison in flame, were all sort of part of the same sort of kind of complex of like, magic that was able to destroy Medea’s as enemies, whether it be a building or a person, or whatever it was she, you know, she had it all down, like, the way that the magic worked. Like you were drawing lines between what she said and almost every hero that you could come across. She had an artefact that linked it to Herakles, all sorts of different monsters, the Chimaera, everything was all in there the Charybdis and Scylla. You know, they all had she all had a fang or a scale, or the ash, or something that was just filled with this, this powerful force that that only she could channel and use to destroy her enemies. And I thought it was just like, overwhelming in it’s detail.
Dr G 43:30 Yeah, Seneca is amazing for the detail.
Alison Innes 43:35 And he uses those serpents as a as a motif or a representation of sexual passion in particular, but also calling on these ancient connotations going right back to Typhaon and Python and the Hydra like those ancient stories of of serpents.
Darrin Sunstrum 43:57 You know, the other thing too, was, I don’t know how much the Romans were into ghosts. But I read a lot about ghosts more about ghosts in the Roman context than I did in the Greek context. So my, my instinct is that they’re, you know, they’re fascinated by them. The Greeks probably were too but in the idea here, I don’t know, like you said, like, if you’re reading it or watching it performed, but that scene, where Medea is confronting or confronted by a ghost that she doesn’t recognise. And then she said, then she sees that it’s absurd as her brother, and then the play just sort of just goes into, like, overdrive at that particular moment. When she realises now what she has to do. I kept thinking about Shakespeare’s Hamlet, but that’s at the beginning. It’s not like three quarters of the way through. You don’t like it, but still, I’ve never had like Euripides doesn’t have ghosts in it for crying out loud, like, but this one does, right? Everything else is there so why not throw a ghost Do right.
Alison Innes 45:01 And the theories are there as well.
Dr G 45:04 The Romans have a lot of interest in ghosts. This is true, they, they spend a lot of time thinking about the dead. And what is happening at that intersection where you can get in contact with Hecate. And there are festivals set up specifically to deal with placating the dead spirits at times of the year where the barriers between the planes of the world are quite thin. And so for Medea to see a ghost would not be out of keeping it all from a Roman perspective.
Dr Rad 45:38 And the Romans are just so obsessed with their ancestors as well. You know, they, they have obviously they keep those funeral masks and they come out, you know, for certain occasions like that they are so connected to the people that come before.
Dr G 45:49 Always having to walk past the imagos of the past
Dr Rad 45:52 So yeah, Medea being fixated on her brother in particular
Dr G 45:57 It does make sense from a Roman perspective for sure.
Alison Innes 45:59 Does that make her crime of killing Jason’s father that much worse to a Roman?
Dr G 46:07 Not necessarily, because Medea is not herself from the region. So in the sense that like, it would be a problem for Jason definitely, for Jason finds ways to not be the one who’s actually absolutely involved. So the stain is really on Jason rather than her. Certainly she carries a lot of blood guilt related to her own family, which would be looked upon terribly. And I mean, she’s not going to come out of it well, from a Roman perspective, anyway.
Dr Rad 46:41 No all the murder, still not good.
Dr G 46:46 Even if we’re reading it through that Roman reading it through a Greek lens, then she’s sort of behaved in ways that don’t represent piety in any way. And she’s been driven by ambition. And all of this is rendered more monstrous from a Roman perspective, because she is a woman.
Dr Rad 47:06 Yeah, I mean, like, to be honest, I’m totally speaking off the top of my head here. I haven’t I hadn’t really thought about this until it came up in conversation. But, of course, by this stage in Rome, as well, women had, most women would have had those kinds of marriages, where they still had very strong connections to their family of birth than their husband’s family. Whilst Of course, they become more and more tied to their husband’s family, you know, when they have children and that kind of thing. And they obviously want their children to succeed. And that’s their main goal in life, etc, etc. At the same time, they do maintain extremely strong ties to their family of birth. And they’re own pater familias. So I think I think Medea having that that strong loyalty to her own family would make sense in the Roman context, more than what happened with Jason’s family.
Darrin Sunstrum 47:56 Yeah, like always a daughter and always a sister like having a brother, right? Like, that’s a pretty important relationship and a Roman woman’s life is the relationship that she has with of course her father, but also with her brothers. Right?
Dr Rad 48:10 Yes.
Darrin Sunstrum 48:11 And even during marriage right there, like I’ve heard, it said that they’re always a daughter. You know what I mean, right
Dr Rad 48:18 I think that’s true. And he would have actually, he would have, he would have heard about that firsthand, of course, because in spite of the fact that, you know, for hazy reasons, but maybe something is serious is trying to overthrow him. He saw Caligula who he knew, exile his two sisters, and, and then constantly threatened to kill them. And then in spite of all of that, he would have heard about them or seeing them coming back to Rome. And one of the first things they did was make sure that Caligula’s body or remains, I should say, was properly buried and had and had the Honours due to it. So you know, they were sisters. Yeah. To the end. Yeah.
Alison Innes 48:57 And I think that that difference is something worth teasing out a little bit because for the Romans, again, like Medea’s and Jason’s marriage is gonna stand out because of the passion element. Whereas in ancient marriage, generally and maybe I’m over-generalising here the marriage is not love match, necessarily, right?
Dr G 49:20 That’s right. Yeah. And this is one of the fundamental problems, I think, for Medea and Jason is that everything about the way their relationship begins, means that from a moralistic perspective, for the Greeks and the Romans, this can’t succeed. If this relationship was a success, it would break the moral fabric that has been set up in terms of how marriage should operate, who should control it, and all of those patriarchal structures are undermined.
Alison Innes 49:49 As the meme goes, I I saw a meme circulating on Twitter about marriages is is an agreement between two men for a Roman woman, but she’s not necessarily involved. It’s her father and her groom, possibly. And certainly the groom’s father as well who are making that agreement. And here, you have a couple who made that decision for themselves in in this passion.
Dr Rad 50:16 Oh, yeah. And with Medea choosing Jason as well, it seems like she really makes that choice.
Alison Innes 50:21 Yeah. And then further complicating it, too, is that the women like we have a tendency in our modern society, or Western society at any rate, to think of, of children as belonging to their mothers, sometimes even more so than to the fathers. But legally, for the Romans, children belonged to the father, so they’re not even really her children.
Dr G 50:48 Oh, yeah. And Jason kind of makes that clear as well. That, you know, these, these are children that are going to, ideally, it’d be better if the children stayed with him, because then he can incorporate them into the new family.
Dr Rad 51:01 And that definitely seems to be something that Medea is striking against, I think really, in Euripides, as well, but certainly in Seneca about she’s striking at the house of Jason, you know, she’s she’s striking it. I don’t know how you
Dr G 51:13 That legacy. Patriarchical structure itself, which is which flows from father to son.
Dr Rad 51:18 Yeah, it’s not about you never, even though Jason is a very different character, as you highlighted in Euripides, to Seneca, there’s never, I think a scene where you see really strong emotional connections between Jason and his children. That’s, that’s not really a focus, it does seem to be much more about that, that legacy aspect
Darrin Sunstrum 51:38 is definitely not given a lot of time to discuss how that works. Yeah, considering into the play, it’s, it’s a few lines here or there. And then, you know, your, your into the terrible stuff, you know, it’s been said to in the Greek context that a marriage is, of course, a marriage ritual, that it’s just as much a community affair as it is between two individuals. And that is successful marriage, at least from the religious side of things, as far as Greek religion is concerned, if it goes off without a hitch, then everything’s okay. Because the bride and the bridegroom have transitioned from what they were into what they will become. And that’s good for them. But it’s also good for the community. So if we consider this from a point of view of Medea and Jason, here’s a marriage, you know, that was begun outside of the Greek world. And in that is, you know, steeped in I don’t know what blood murder, right. And less than convenient circumstances, that was never really allowed to transition into the Greek world, and it’s out of context and out of sync with was just about everything that we would come to understand about what we might call a proper Greek marriage. So not only not only do they suffer, but the whole community suffers as a result of the being in close proximity to these characters that are much in flux, specifically, Medea in particular.
Dr Rad 53:08 Yeah, and I think even if you look at it in, in the Roman context at Seneca is, is dealing with now that you’ve got this imperial system, I mean, the imperial system is very much set up, like it’s almost like a larger version of that familial unit structure, you know, the, the way that people like Augustus get the title, you know, “father of the country”, and that becomes a very sought after way of looking at him. And he’s almost like this giant pater familias for the Empire. And the family is such a key unit, even before the empire that the family is always such a key building block in the Roman state, and the way that their society has to function. And, and it’s very much that idea of when a woman is acting out, if she doesn’t have a strong man to control her, if she doesn’t have a strong man to control her. If she doesn’t have a strong pater familias, chaos will ensue. Women can’t be entrusted to have that kind of independence. And as you say, it is it is bad for society if you don’t have the structures in place like you’re supposed to.
Darrin Sunstrum 54:09 Right, right. Yeah.
Alison Innes 54:11 And that is similar to, to looking at Euripides’ version in the Greek model is that this is this is what can happen if if a woman doesn’t have her curios if she doesn’t have somebody overseeing her a male somebody overseeing her.
Dr G 54:25 Yeah. And I think as for Medea, and the way that she operates in society, it is perhaps convenient in terms of the theatre, but also fascinating in terms of the psychology that she is still able to find allegiances with other men in times of trouble
Dr Rad 54:45 and she escapes
Dr G 54:46 Yes she does Yeah, gets out of there
Dr Rad 54:47 She gets away.
Dr G 54:49 But being able to wrangle her way to securing some alliances and some promises of aid from other powerful men, despite the fact that she clearly, in some senses, is being set up as a symbolic “No Go Zone” like – this is how you don’t do womanhood – is itself really interesting because within the terms of the play itself, she’s, she’s always pushing back against it and sometimes it’s working out.
Dr Rad 55:20 Absolutely.
Darrin Sunstrum 55:20 Yeah.
Alison Innes 55:21 It’s interesting that the king of Athens doesn’t put in an appearance in Seneca’s version. What what do you make of that difference?
Dr G 55:31 In a way, it’s kind of like skipping to the chase, isn’t it? Because we’ve started at that really like that fever pitch of anger, which is a quality that the Romans tend to deplore anyway, and she’s running with that throughout most of this play. Like, it’s almost like her transformation is pushed forward as a result, it’s like the anger is building and building and building. And all of a sudden, it’s not a surprise that she’s there in a chariot. Yeah, it’s like, it’s kind of like it’s reached such a point, that she doesn’t need that external point of safety anymore. She’s discovered it within herself. And that was probably going to happen in Euripides anyway. And we see that unfold in a slightly different way. But yeah, she’s kind of self contained.
Dr Rad 56:25 It does seem like more of a play on it to have Madea in Euripides, you know, going oh, but but how will I get out of this? Like, what’s my escape plan to have to have the character dealing with those sorts of issues does seem like more what you’d expect in something that’s going to be performed, I suppose, as the audience is like, oh, what she’s going to do? What has a plan going to unfold? It adds to the tension, I suppose.
Dr G 56:46 Yeah. Whereas by the time we get to Seneca, maybe the audience doesn’t need that. And they’re like, You know what, let’s just go for gold, go for the big stuff.
Alison Innes 56:54 Well, and it leaves her at the end of of Seneca’s play with nowhere to go, she can’t go back. Anywhere that she’s been, or to any family that she’s had. And she doesn’t really have a place to go forward to either she just kind of goes into the heavens.
Darrin Sunstrum 57:12 Yeah just into the into the heavens. And then Jason says there are no gods.
Alison Innes 57:16 Yeah. So there’s not even really a place there.
Darrin Sunstrum 57:18 And then you’re at your knees. But yeah, I don’t know. I thought that part was quite compelling. Actually. It’s not just a change of address part.
Alison Innes 57:27 Yeah, I’m not saying it’s not it’s it’s not compelling. But it leaves her in a different – I don’t know. It’s just it has a very different feeling compared to like, when we finish with Euripides’ Medea, we know that yes, she’s taking off in anger. But this is the next step in her plan. We see her taking off in anger. And that’s it. You know, there’s there’s not, there’s not a hint or a clue or any idea of where she belongs, like she may have found herself. But has she found where she belongs?
Darrin Sunstrum 58:02 Yeah, she is all she has her own place.
Dr G 58:05 And I think in a way that makes sense for Seneca if we’re thinking about like the Stoic sort of positioning as well, is that for Jason to be like, there are no gods. I think that’s him trying to just deal with the trauma that he’s just just taken on in witnessing the murder of one of his children, because she’s clearly leaving. And she’s clearly in a chariot and there are clearly serpents involved. So good luck to her buddy. I mean, she’s, she’s off and away. But for this whole thing to be just a crescendo level of anger, I think that speaks a lot to what Seneca is driving at,
Dr Rad 58:47 Definitely.
Dr G 58:48 What does it mean to hold that kind of rage? And how can it ever be dissipated? And it seems like the answer that Seneca comes to is that that it can’t – that level of rage belongs beyond the human experience.
Dr Rad 59:06 And what kind of life are you are you leading? You know, where’s where is it leading you? Even though Medea is much more set on revenge throughout Seneca, she still does have those moments where she’s kind of like, Wow, am I really doing this? Am I really going to murder my own children? She still has those moments.
Dr G 59:23 Yeah, where she has to buck herself up being like, I can do this.
Dr Rad 59:26 Yeah.
Darrin Sunstrum 59:26 I have a couple thoughts she vacillates between the decision making process or not, and that’s something that they share that Seneca and Euripides share, at least in that moment of psychology and Medea. It’s not very long. But one of the things that I was I found missing. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but what I found missing about Seneca, of course, it’s very relentless. We’ve talked about that. But the idea is that there’s almost no sort of rhetorical repartee. And by that I mean, Medea doesn’t use her gift of rhetoric to convince or manipulate like she does in Euripides. Right? Nor does there seem to be any sympathy with – which Euripides often does in other plays – But even in the Medea, Euripides’ Medea any sympathetic portrayal of anyone on the outside, whether it be other women or slaves or children themselves, or you know, marginalised characters, right, Nor is there any sort of, you know, you portray the gods as less than powerful, right or questioned their power, right, and their effect. So Seneca doesn’t get anywhere near those particular things, because rhetoric is not what it was or in, you know, fifth century Athens. Right. There’s something else that’s important to him, I imagine here, Medea is not about to trying to change anybody’s mind that I can see.
Dr G 1:00:52 I think I think I would accept that up to a point. I think it’s probably dangerous to say that the Romans aren’t interested in rhetoric. It’s just that their style is very different. And the way that Seneca is showcasing Medea through long set speeches, without giving other characters a real entry point is, in a way very much in keeping with trying to focus in on a particular feeling and rhetoric for the Romans as well, and to a certain extent for the Greek, centres around speechifying rather than conversation. So you might look at I spent a lot of time at the moment reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus. So bear with me, but he is always even at that point, writing in Greek, always trying to put together set speeches for rhetorical effect. And so they’re persuasive, not just in terms of their length, but for the arguments contained within that length. And this might be an argument for saying that Seneca isn’t writing so much a play as he’s writing some sort of document for circulation. He’s not trying to build that conversational oratory into it at all. Medea does convince Kreon which is a necessary element for the forwarding of the plot. So that does happen early on in Seneca. But it’s not the style I think, I think there’s something to be said about the differences in the way that Greeks in Euripides’ time are pursuing rhetoric and the way that Romans in the first century of the empire are pursuing rhetoric.
Dr Rad 1:02:40 I agree with you, Darrin, about the lacking of Medea’s persuasiveness, until almost like in Euripides her persuasiveness is one of her fearful powers because she, yeah, she is able to snake her way through situations and again, I think it does add to the dramatic element of of the play in Euripides. It is the way that the way that she works her magic,
Alison Innes 1:03:02 Yeah her danger there is not just her magic, and maybe not even primarily her magic, but her ability to use her words and to use what is a manly skill in rhetoric. Whereas in Seneca’s Medea her magic is her most, well her magic and her anger coupled together are the most fearsome aspect rather than her words. There’s there’s not the agon “the contest” of words that we see in a Greek play.
Dr G 1:03:12 Which is interesting as well because incantation in conjunction with pharmaka is usually very important. So it is striking and it’s not there.
Darrin Sunstrum 1:03:50 They even reference that in the play, she talks about the power of her word, right, but it’s used in reference to the incantation process, the magic itself. I remember that. I made a little note, but I can’t remember where it is. But wow, again, there’s the power of words, right. But then it was just about magic talk. Right, like speech.
Dr G 1:04:14 Mm. So I guess we could say that Seneca is then making a real differentiation between speech and the potential of rhetoric, and incantation as just very different modes of speaking.
Alison Innes 1:04:26 So were there any other angles that we wanted to explore?
Dr Rad 1:04:30 Yeah, no, I feel like I’ve felt like I’ve said,
Alison Innes 1:04:34 I feel like we’ve kind of come to a natural point and natural conclusion. All right. So thank you very much for joining us. This has been a really interesting conversation.
Dr G 1:04:43 Thank you so much.
Thank you very much.
Darrin Sunstrum 1:04:45 Thank you very much, guys.
Dr Rad 1:04:50 Thank you for listening to this special episode of The Partial Historians co hosted with MythTake and until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Episode 129 – Lars Tolumnius and the Fate of Fidenae
Sep 15, 2022
Vengeance for Rome
It’s 437 BCE and Rome finds itself challenged by the king of the Etruscans Lars Tolumnius. But how did Rome get into this situation? In our previous episode, Rome took a break from domestic woes to deal with the execution of four ambassadors. These men had been sent to the colony of Fidenae, which had recently defected to the Etruscan city of Veii.
The Romans are quick to engage in battle with the Etruscans and their allies. They secure a victory under the consuls, but it comes at a heavy price. They determine that this whole situation merits a dictator. Is there a problem that a dictator cannot solve? Apparently not, for the Romans start to enjoy a lot more success once they have Mamercus Aemilius in place.
Episode 129 – Lars Tolumnius and the Fate of Fidenae
A Map of the City of Veii. The time period of the city is not clear from the map. Source: Wikimedia Commons
To the Victor Go the Spoils
Mamercus has assembled a crack team to battle the Etruscan King Lars Tolumnius. This was the right move, as Lars Tolumnius is hell on horseback. Once the conflict has commenced, the king makes it mission to cause as much chaos for the Roman forces as possible.
Fortunately for Mamercus, there is an aspiring hero amongst the Roman cavalry. Aulus Cornelius Cossus is a patrician hottie on a mission to make a name for himself or die trying. His exploits will become the stuff of legend. SPOILA ALERT – There may be spoila opima involved.
Aulus Cornelius Cossus with the head of Lars Tolumnius. See this gruesome depiction in more detail here.
Things to Look Out For
Confusion over the dating of events
Handsome patrician soldiers
Decapitations
Rude military songs
Golden crowns
Triumphs
Our Players 437 BCE
Consuls
M. Geganius M. f. – n. Macerinus – Pat. (Cos. 447, 443)
L. Sergius C. F. C. n. Fidenas – Pat. – (Cos. 424, Mil. Tr. c. p. 433, 429, 418)
Consul Suffectus
M. Valerius M. f. M. n. Lactutua (or Lactucinus) Maximus – Pat.
Dictator
Mam. Aemilius M.f. – n. Mamercinus – Pat. – Mil. Tr. c.p. 438
Master of the Horse
L. Quinctius L.f.L.n. Cincinnatus – Pat. – Cos. 428b, Mil. Tr. c.p. 438, 425, 420.
Legates, Lieutenants
M. Fabius Vibulanus – Pat. – Cos. 442, Mil. Tr. c.p. 433
(T.) Quinctius Capitolinus (Barbatus) – Pat.
Tribune of the Soldiers
A Cornelius Cossus – Pat. – Cos. 428, Mil. Tr. c. p. 426
Etruscan King
Lars Tolumnius
Our Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 12.43.1; Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 12.5; Valerius Maximus, 3.2.4; Florus, 1.6.9; Plutarch, Life of Romulus, 16.7-8; Plutarch, Life of Marcellus, 7-8; Propertius, 4.10; Sextus Aurelius Victor, Lives of Illustrious Romans – ‘Aulus Cornelius Cossus’; Frontinus, Strategems, 2.8.9; Eutropius, 1.19.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.17-20.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to BBC Sounds, Fesliyan Studios, Orange Free Sounds and Sound Bible for sound effects, and the gifted Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
“Mars of Todi” a life-size Etruscan bronze sculpture of a soldier making a votive offering c. 5th Century BCE. Those Etruscan were pretty niffy when it came to the arts! Source: Wikimedia Commons
Automated Transcript
Generated by Otter AI. Let’s see how the AI copes with the Latin and tricky Australian accent this time round!
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to the Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 1:12 And I’m Dr. G. And it’s the history of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr Rad 1:19 So let’s recap where we were up to last time, Dr. G. So last episode, we talked about a teensy bit of 439, as far as I’m concerned, but it was mostly 438. And apart from the Maelius, shamoozle that we were clearing up on murder most foul, it would seem of an equestrian who’s just trying to make it rain grain.
Dr G 1:41 And ended up in the pool of treachery!
Dr Rad 1:44 That’s right. We had instead a switch from domestic problems to foreign problems.
Dr G 1:51 Yeah, there’s nothing like in a Etruscan King to get under your skin.
Dr Rad 1:54 Indeed. So we had the introduction of Lars Tolumnius, an Etruscan King
Dr G 2:00 Of Veii
Dr Rad 2:01 Yes apparently comes into our orbit because basically, the Romans had established a colony at a place called Fidenae. And they had decided to switch their allegiance from the Romans to the city of Veii which is Etruscan and hence the involvement of an Etruscan King.
Dr G 2:19 Hmm.
Dr Rad 2:20 And when the Romans sent for ambassadors to be why you got to be that way, while you leaving us, yeah, their response was apparently to cut their heads off, which may have been on the orders of Lars, or he might have actually been doing something else trying to multitask and ended up in a very messy situation.
Dr G 2:41 Also, it’s a bit of a mess if you think about it, because these are Roman historians trying to tell us what’s going on with Fidenae, and it seems like they can’t credit Fidenae with coming up with this idea for themselves.
Dr Rad 2:57 And Livy certainly is on the side of Tolumnius ordering the murder, or at least making it seem like he was ordering a murder because he wanted Fidenae to be committed to this revolt that they were in.
Dr G 3:13 Yeah, man on the ground.
Dr Rad 3:15 Yeah, so we ended up with four ambassadors who lost their heads, but once the statues in the city of Rome
Dr G 3:22 Headless statues?
Dr Rad 3:26 I didn’t mention that one was called Ickabod. Anyway, so that was really where we were up to with 438 which means Dr G that it’s time to travel into 437 BCE.
Dr G 3:57 It’s 437 BCE and Dionysus of Halicarnassus my major source? Yes. cuts back in partway through this year. I’ll have some things to tell you. Yeah, but let us start with the multitude of characters. This is like a cast of 1000s
Dr Rad 4:14 It is yeah 437 seems to be quite the year to a Roman and
Dr G 4:18 it is if you’re gonna get famous and have a big part in Roman history, it might be in this year. We have consuls are returned to the consulship everybody. Marcus Geganius, son of Marcus grandson of we don’t know who Macerinus. And Lucius Sergius, Son of Gaius, grandson of Gaius Fidenas.
Dr Rad 4:43 Coincidence? I think not.
Dr G 4:45 a patrician Yes. So and we also have and this is perhaps a foreshadowing of things to come in this year. A suffect consul as well. Do you usually only get those when you have to replace one of the other consuls for some reason? Yeah.
Dr Rad 4:59 You have to suffer the suffect.
Dr G 5:02 and this is Marcus Valerius son of Marcus grandson of Manius Lactutua or Lactucinus – which sounds maybe more more Latin – Maximus so
Dr Rad 5:18 It’s sounds like breastfeed breastfeeding
Dr G 5:20 handful of a name handful of a man. And then we also have a dictator
Dr Rad 5:26 So soon?
Dr G 5:27 So soon you say, yes, we’ve entered the era of dictators, dear listeners, so be on the lookout Mamercus Aemilius son of Marcus grandson of we don’t know who Mamercinus.
Dr Rad 5:41 There’s one that I really struggled with last time so so it’s Mamercus Aemilius is Namur kindness or mana sinus,
Dr G 5:51 okay? Yes, he was one of the military tributes with concealer power from the previous year.
Dr Rad 5:56 I wish the Romans wouldn’t have tongue twister names.
It’s not good for the English we needed to be raised on romance language. But there is the master of the horse to accompany the dictator course. And that is the young Cincinnatus – famous in all the wrong ways. And now he’s back on the scene.
Yeah. So he also was from the previous year if I remember correctly.
Dr G 6:18 One of the military tributes with consular power. Yeah. So two buddies hooking up again for another year of fun together.
And that’s after his daddy. As in Cincinnatus daddy had just been dictated himself.
Yeah, maybe not. Yeah, so now he’s stepping through the ranks.
Absolutely.
We’ve also got a couple of legates mentioned Marcus Fabius Vibulanus with Fabian Yeah, he was previously consul in 442. So quite recently, yeah. And who we think is Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus. For
Dr Rad 6:51 Oh for heaven’s sake. Will that man ever retire?
Dr G 6:55 No. And also somebody known as the tribute of the soldiers in my account. Yes. We’ll see how this goes for him. Yes, but hold on to your horses. This is the name out of all of that list. The one to remember Aulus Cornelius Cossus.
Dr Rad 7:11 Yeah, yeah, that’s what I’ve got to Yeah,
Dr G 7:14 a patrician. And there’s going to be some interesting things going on with old Cossus. So yeah, keep your ears peeled.
Dr Rad 7:22 Oh, my goodness. So clearly, we’re in for quite a year if we got this many magistrates on our cards. It sounds
Dr G 7:27 like a Roman disaster already. What is going on?
Dr Rad 7:33 I know, I basically we’ve got this situation, right, where war is clearly on the horizon, because you can’t just ignore the fact that four of your ambassadors just had their heads cut off.
Dr G 7:44 It is awkward, but to ignore it would make it worse. Yeah.
Dr Rad 7:47 You can’t kind of know the murder on sir. Fortunately, there is no conflict over the issue of the levy. Because the Plebeians and the tribunes are sensible enough at this time around Dr. G, to know that brain needs to come together. They need to unite, because that’s the only way they’re going to be able to deal with the Etruscans.
Dr G 8:12 Oh, yes, because laws to learn this is still on the scene.
Dr Rad 8:15 So because obviously rooms in a bit of a difficult situation, no surprises the plebeians, and the tribunes don’t raise any objections to consuls being elected this time around, because they understand that unity is important in this moment here. And so we have as we mentioned before, Marcus Geganius Macerinus and Lucius Sergius Fidenas now Livy, he mentions here and we are going to come back to this guy’s name, that he thinks he got this name because of the war that he was fighting. So obviously fighting to get back to the colony if we need to restore things to how they should be in the Roman mindset. And he got this name apparently, because he was the first man to fight a successful battle on this side of the Anio. Against Lars Tolumnius. However, he does highlight that this was not a battle that was easily won. So a lot of the Romans are obviously pretty sad, because so many people died in this battle. And therefore, even though they did win, it was a bit of a tricky situation. Rome’s not in exactly the place it wants to be. And so the Senate ended up deciding that they want to appoint a dictator, the Mamercus Aemilius, and he chooses as his master of the horse, another guy who’s sprung up from the year that we were just talking about who’d been a military tribute with consular authority, none other than Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus or Cincinnatus Jr, who is described as being a young man worthy of his father and therefore I have conceived and instantaneous dislike to him. Yeah, anyway, so the consuls of course help out here. They decided they’re going to, you know, levy the troops and they make sure that they include some veteran Centurions amongst the number. Guess they think they can be facing quite the fight here which is a fair call. The Etruscans are pretty powerful at this point. Yep. So dictator Mamercus orders type Titus Quinctius Capitolinus and Marcus Fabius Vibulanus to be his lieutenants and that’s where they come into. Ah, okay. Yeah, so they’re gonna be serving underneath him. And of course, they’re from pretty elite clans. I got the connections gratis Fabians.
Dr G 10:27 Hard to resist a fabulous Fabian.
Dr Rad 10:29 Exactly. Yes. So you know it gets pedigree going on here. Yeah, what Livy points out here is that when the right man is chosen to be dictator of Rome. And when that position so high and mighty is united with that correct, man, well, there’s no one that can stand in Rome’s way. That’s just the way it works. The position is elite. The man is elite. Such a marriage in heaven. So anyway, that’s just I think a bit of a hint about where this is all going about how it’s all going to go for Rome.
Livy’s got his narrative knickers in a twist. Yeah,
exactly. So as a result, the Romans carry off. They’re able to push the enemy right out of their territory across the Anio River, the enemy, the Etruscans, they ended up withdrawing into their camp, and they set themselves up on the hills between Fidenae and the Anio river. And they are not going to come down into the plains until the forces of the Faliscans come to help them. Then the Etruscans themselves set up camp before the wolves of Findae the Roman dictator retires to his camp, which was also obviously in the area to prepare for battle. Now, this is where in the enemy camp there is a little bit of problems, because not everyone is convinced about what the next move should be. These Faliscans are kind of restless, because they’re away from their home territory, and they’re feeling you know, pretty confident. Okay, pretty, pretty ready for things they’re definitely keen to, you know, get right back into things here. But the people of Veii and Fidenae they want to take a slower approach. Okay. I think you know, what time might be on our side here. Okay, so King Tolumnius, thinks, you know what? I agree with my fellow people here, I think that slow and steady might win the race here against the Romans. Okay. I mean, they’re clearly raring to go. Okay,
Dr G 12:44 We wouldn’t want to give them the satisfaction.
Dr Rad 12:46 Yeah. However, I think he feels a bit emasculated because he’s got these Falsicans FalIScans is such a weird name for people. And I think he feels like It’d be embarrassing for him not to just go right into it not to launch straight ahead.
Dr G 13:04 Lars, Lars, Lars, this is how you lose.
Dr Rad 13:06 Yeah, so he and he didn’t want to obviously lose their faith. He doesn’t want them to go back home and be like, You know what, if you’re not going to use us, we’re just going to go back home, because they clearly want to go back. And I’m enjoying this little holiday of this. So he decides he is going to fight the very next day. Now meanwhile, the Romans and their dictator I feeling very positive because somehow they seem to know that there’s some hesitation amongst the enemy about what it is that they’re going to be doing. So the Romans start threatening that they’re going to attack the cat that they’re going to attack the city of Fidenae if the enemy doesn’t enter battle, so they’re going to bring the battle to then if they are like, reluctant to fight or something like that Romans posturing, so the armies phased out the the armies March and they are facing off against each other. Now they have sent across some extra men and they’ve dispatched a particular party across the mountains to attack the Roman camp during the fighting clever because presumably then the Romans you know, attention will be diverted and they’d have to split their forces to defend their cat so basically once a move Yeah, what we’ve got there for is the enemy troops. We’ve got Veii on the right wing. We’ve got the Faliscans. Faliscans, Faliscans on the left wing, and we’ve got the people from Fidenae right in the centre. Dictator Mamercus Mamercinus. He’s going to advance on the right and take on the Faliscans Capitolinus is going to be sent against the people of Veii on the left.
Dr G 14:46 Okay, so one of the senior legates.
Dr Rad 14:48 Yes, absolutely. And then we have master the horse. Cincinnatus. Son of the famous
Dr G 14:53 Junior
Dr Rad 14:54 Yeah Cincinnatus Jr. Yeah, he’s going to be attacking the people from Fidenae right in the centre
Dr G 15:00 All right.
Dr Rad 15:01 All right. So this is the scene, and everything falls quiet. The Etruscans are holding back, seemingly not wanting to fight, unless their hand is forced, the dictator is looking back towards the Citadel in Rome. That’s right, because he always had assured him that they would send a signal,
Dr G 15:26 I was gonna say there has to be a sign of birds at this point, doesn’t there?
Dr Rad 15:30 just letting him know that everything was looking good according to the heavens, and that he could therefore, embark on the fight. And sure enough, the signal is given. And a dictator sends his cavalry right into action, followed by the infantry. Yes. Now I’m gonna stop right here, Dr. G, even though it’s a very enigmatic moment.
Dr G 15:56 it’s a tense moment
Dr Rad 15:57 it is. Because this is where I have to start flagging some of the problems with this account. So basically, this conflict with feed name is going to last on and off for over a decade, according to our sources, right? Okay. Yeah. The like, yes, things are going to get settled, but then they’re going to flare up again. And there is definitely some confusion about which order the events really happened in and what definitely happened when, okay, this is the first of those moments, which has raised the little hairs on the back of the necks of scholars, because they’re like, that doesn’t seem possible that you could see the citadel of room maybe from the position that you’re supposedly in.
Dr G 16:48 Yeah, like, I mean, we know where the Anio river is, we know where Fidenae is, yeah, you could reasonably send somebody out there to go and have a look. See? I mean, the hill scape of Rome is not the same today, as it was then. Some of those hills have had the tops knocked off them.
Dr Rad 17:07 Yeah. So it could look, it could be one of those things. But this is where academics and like, yeah, not buying it, because you see, there’s going to be another battle in 426, fairly much the same players, you know, we’ve got room and fitness and all that kind of stuff going on. And again, we have the storage hole that a Roman commander didn’t start fighting until he received a signal.
Dr G 17:28 Oh, yeah. But yeah, like, I’ll level with you. This is a very appropriate way for Romans to go about battles. I don’t think as a scholar, that’s not the point where I’d have the question.
Dr Rad 17:41 I think it’s when you take it in consideration with the other things I’m going to flag
Dr G 17:46 Yeah,
Dr Rad 17:46 it’s like a potential like, did it happen exactly like this at this moment, but
Dr G 17:50 waiting for a sign for like, whether it’s appropriate to go into battle or appropriate to go into war. That’s all totally aboveboard, as far as like the Romans are concerned,
Dr Rad 17:59 No I think it’s more specifically the idea that the dictator at this point in time would have been able to
Dr G 18:05 Turns over his shoulder
Dr Rad 18:06 and look at the Citadel of Rome.
Dr G 18:09 And they’re like, ah ha,
Dr Rad 18:10 yes. Yeah, I think there’s just a little bit of like this. This is the same story that’s told later on. Yeah. When the Romans are fighting the same people. Yeah, there is some confusion here.
Dr G 18:22 the same story told 10 years apart. And I have to say, This builds in really nicely with what we’ve already flagged in the previous episode. Which is, we’ve got some annalistic disparity about when things are happening. Yeah. When people are holding the consulship when people are dictators in this period, and there is about a slippage of about 10 years.
Dr Rad 18:42 Yeah, absolutely.
Dr G 18:42 So are we dealing with a story that gets retold twice? Or are we dealing with what is the same story, essentially, and we’ve lost some years? Yeah. And actually, the annalistic. Historians don’t know yet. What happened for some of these and they’ve gotten caught up in their numbers. And they’ve counted things incorrectly. Yeah. Which is highly likely. Yeah. And it’s now at this point where some of their miscalculations are starting to play out, and they happen to fill in the gaps with some stuff
Dr Rad 19:09 then anyway, to resume the battle. So the Etruscans obviously, they’re having to fight now because the remedies be given the signal they’re launching. So the best fighting for on their side is apparently coming from their cavalry, particularly from Lars Tolumnius, who’s quite a heroic brave King time. He’s kind of leading the charge. He’s like running all about trying to scare the Romans being Orpheus like rah, rah, rah,
Dr G 19:35 the Romans like Stop jumping around like that
Dr Rad 19:42 made me drop my sword. Yeah, hate
Dr G 19:45 it. I hate it, fighting the Etruscans For this very reason.
Dr Rad 19:48 Now, this is where the guy that you flagged earlier comes into his hands. On the Roman side, we have as what are the attributes of the soldiers when Aulus Cornelius Cossus He is very, very handsome.
Dr G 20:04 Oh, my sources don’t mention that. Well, well,
Dr Rad 20:08 I’ve got quite the visual here.
Dr G 20:11 Very handsome, you say well that put things in a whole new light.
Dr Rad 20:14 So he’s very, very handsome. He’s also courageous and strong. I mean when you expect nothing less. Now he’s very proud of his family name, Cornelii. But he wants to make sure that he makes it even more famous than when he received it.
Dr G 20:36 Fair enough. It is every patrician’s duty to increase the family reputation. Yeah. So good for Aulus.
Dr Rad 20:43 Exactly, yes. So he can see that one of the big issues that the Romans are facing is the Etruscan King, Tolumnius is causing chaos on the battlefield. So he decides, you know what, I’m gonna take this guy down myself. And so he decides to charge him armed only with his work not armed and then with his spear, but with his spear, ready. And he strikes Lars right off his horse. And then he jumps off his horse with his spear, and violently stabs him so violent that Lars is pinned to the earth with this spear. Oh, yeah. And so then he takes all the spoils from the body. So this would be his weapons, you know, his armour, all of that kind of stuff, shield
Dr G 21:32 underpants
Dr Rad 21:34 very important. And then he chops off that head of Lars Tolumnius and puts it on his spear. I presume he took the spear out of the body goes back into the earth at this point of time, and he uses it to terrify the Etruscans. And as a result, this contributes greatly to the Romans being able to take down the Etruscan cavalry.
Dr G 21:58 Oh, I have a slightly different version of events.
Dr Rad 22:00 Look, I’ve no doubt that you do, because I am also going to raise questions about the way that this is all going down, but not right now.
Dr G 22:07 Let me give you the comparison, Dionysius of Halicarnassus doesn’t give us much but he gives us some things. Okay, so this is Roman Antiquities. 12.5. Yeah. And so we have you know, Aulus Cornelius he’s not described as being incredibly handsome, which is a real shame. Change the whole visual for me, but he does spur his horse against Tolumnius. So Lars Tolumnius it seems to be as as any great commander on a horse
Dr Rad 22:34 Totally,
Dr G 22:34 and so is Aulus Cornelius and when Tolumnius gets to Lars he drives his spear through the breast of the horse. So yeah, so Lars Tolumnius’ horse gets speared First of all, which forces the horse to rear up and throw the rider off. So yeah, Lars Tolumnius ends up like flat on his back on the ground his horse is in great pain. Yeah. And then Cornelius turns and drives the point of his spear through the shield and through the breastplate, of Tolumnius into his side, so through two layers of defence. And while Tolumnius is trying to raise himself up after like having this spear stabbed through his shield, and his breastplate, and his side, yeah. What Cornelius does is he takes his sword and pushes it through Tolumnius’ groin
Dr Rad 23:31 oh, what?
And that is how he slays the king of the Etruscans
oh my god, it’s brutal.
Dr G 23:39 Yes. Then he strips off his spoils. Yeah. So all of the armour, the underpants everything. And then he defends the spot. So nobody else can take the spoils from him, or do you take him down? Yeah, because he was in close quarters. And he’d gone into like, you know, the Etruscan line to get there. And it was that moment. This becomes a huge moment. Yes. So in terms of moments in Roman history, yeah, as horrific as this is, regardless of how either source describes it. This guy become he does increase the fame of his family. And the reason why he has is because he joins the really illustrious ranks, of which there is only currently one at this point in time. Yeah, of a Roman who, in hand to hand combat defeats the enemy commander,
Dr Rad 24:31 I was gonna say we don’t often see this kind of squaring off of the leader, you know, leader versus leader or or anyone versus a leader. It’s yeah, it’s not super common.
Dr G 24:42 It’s not super common. There are only three examples. So Plutarch in his life of Romulus gives us all three examples. Nice. Romulus Surprise, surprise is the first he slays Acron of the Caenesians so that we was a long time ago. Yeah, in the founding of the of the city and so forth. But the next person is Aulus Cornelius Cossus right now in what 437 BCE for killing Lars Tolumnius. And then it’s we don’t see this again until 222 BCE. Wow. So for people listening in one to watch on the horizon coming up soon, about 200 years time, Claudius Marcellus overpowers the king of the Gauls, known as Viridomarus and sometimes referred to as Britomartus. Okay. And these are the three examples of all time
Dr Rad 25:42 wow, that’s it, I knew is a big deal, but I hadn’t actually looked at the numbers.
Dr G 25:47 Yeah, so and Claudius Marcellus is like years in the future. And so at this point Cornelius Cossus is equal to Romulus
Dr Rad 25:56 Who we’re pretty sure it’s mythical.
Dr G 25:59 But who is like, you know, a legendary figure in Roman history and to liking yourself to Romulus through this act, yeah, is an incredible way to enhance your family’s reputation and your own.
Dr Rad 26:14 Absolutely. Wait a moment. So this turns the tide of the battle for the Romans, the dictator, friend, and then anarchy as he’s able to come along, chase after the fleeing enemy, all the way to that account where he massacres. Anybody that’s managed to make it that far, however, live, he does know that because they’re Romans obviously fighting in the territory of the enemy here. And the people of feed now obviously have pretty good knowledge of like the local area. And so quite a few of them are able to make a getaway into the mountains. cosas comes back in here, he’s able to cross the table with his Catterall being like, yeah, collecting all this booty. Yeah,
Dr G 26:59 check out the spiral. Yeah,
Dr Rad 27:01 there is, of course, also a fight happening now at the Roman can, because last alumnus before his rather sad, had sent this diversionary party. So we’ve got failures video learners defending the cat. Luckily, he was there with the reserves or the tree Rei who work basically kept back until absolutely necessary in this battle. You know, they didn’t want to use them unless they were in a real crisis point. And they waited until the enemy was distracted. And then they tacked one. They basically got like, out of one of the main gates of the Roman camp and managed to secure victory for themselves. Yeah, pretty good.
Dr G 27:44 So this is getting back to this issue of like timing with this kind of thing. Yes, this idea that for DNA is defeated. And it is problematic, I suppose if it happens now, because we’re certainly going to see them sort of revive and come back. And our sources tend to suggest that there is a point where they are completely destroyed. Yeah. And this doesn’t appear to be that time. And yet we do get some conflation of this point. Yeah. With that point in the future. Yeah. Because we there’s discussion of the spoils being one from last Lemonnier Yeah. So causes, takes these back, gets a trial, dedicates them to the Temple of Jupiter Farah Tereus, which is the special place for that kind of thing. And in the same instance, in this source of it, I’ve got here, which is florist. So this is a writer from like the early first century, late first early second century CE. Yeah. So I mean, reasonably far away from things talks about how in the end for DNA is defeated, not through this kind of battle. Yeah. But through a whole broader series of strategic underground mines and traps and things.
Dr Rad 29:10 Okay. That might be one of those things.
Dr G 29:13 Yeah. But it’s all bundled up together. Like, yeah, like these things are all sort of like happened around about the same time, which is kind of not useful when we’re thinking about early Roman republican history, because we’re like, we kind of want to know when things actually did happen. Not bundling 10 years together in one and big like, well, you know, 426 is a bit like 437. So I shall be right. It’s just
Dr Rad 29:36 wishing to get it. Yeah, no, that’s just it. This obviously is seen as one of those big moments for Rome because the Senate decreed and people agree with the Senate that that all of this is triumph worthy. But Costas is the one that definitely gets I think most of the attention, unfortunately for him and because he doesn’t get quite the attention that you might think Given that he’s the dictator in charge,
Dr G 30:02 I’d be annoyed if I was the dictator right now like, I
Dr Rad 30:05 mean, he still gets the accolades, I suppose but yeah, it costs us he’s definitely getting the most attention. I particularly like this detail that apparently the soldiers under him saying rude verses about him comparing him to Romulus because of the whole route versus Yeah, I like that detail. Yeah, because of the whole spoiler up in our thing, which as you say, he does dedicate to the Temple of Jupiter Farah trees. And the people then requests that the dictator give Jupiter on the capital A golden chaplet, which was to be a pound in weight from the public treasury. Wow, wrap up events here. All right. Yeah, exactly. Fancy. I know. So yeah. There’s all that kind of stuff going down. But this whole moment of Roman conquest, everything, as you say, just become significant later on. It’s something that the Romans obviously want to remember. But their memories seem to be a bit hazy.
Dr G 30:57 Well, yeah. And there’s obviously like the the event of two alumnus being killed in this way. Yeah, by courses. And that being positioned as such a rare event. Yeah, that happens. Yeah, that sort of means that they have to remember this. There’s no way that they couldn’t. And certainly, yeah, it gets a bit confusing, though. So I’ve also got you Tropius, who’s a source from the fourth century see, wow, yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, for hundreds of years after these events, people are still talking about them. Yeah. And you Tropius talks about how the for Dante’s they rebel against Rome. And you know, vai is on their side and Tulum nurse gives them assistance. Yeah. And they are defeated by Marcus Amelia is the dictator. Yeah. And so this puts us in a different sort of timeframe as well. Yes. And, but Lucis Quinto, Cincinnatus, Cincinnatus, Jr, is named as master of the horse. So there’s like this sort of conflation of details from one year with another year. This is not the year that a Marcus Aurelius is dictator. But we are in a period where we’re gonna see a lot of dictators. So yeah, it’s gonna come up, I’m sure No,
Dr Rad 32:10 and isn’t this exactly, because we’ve got this conflict clearing up again in 428, four to 27. And as you say, the names of the people who are dictator and master the horse, sorry, names of people that are dictated similar. So we’ve got that Emilio’s character again, and then we’ve got cost us in some accounts named as master of the horse.
Dr G 32:27 Ah, yes, and horses. So the thing with courses is, and I’ve got a whole nother section on this. So other sources that deal with this, we’ve got prepurchase book for poem 10 On the Origins of Thera tree and Jupiter talks about the three examples. So Costas is talked about in there, and he actually mentions that the gods aided the Latin hands so his hands are being sort of helped by the divine forces. And to lameness is severed head washed Roman horses in blood. Wow. Yeah, thanks, prepurchase. Yeah, and then we’ve got sexes or really as Victor. And so I really liked so as again, it talks about Cincinnatus, Jr, as the dictator, and Cornelius courses as the master of the horse. And these two will end up in this situation, we think a little bit further on. So this is again, jumping. So there are moments where courses, we’re not sure what position he held? Yeah. When he engaged in this moment. Yeah. But it would make sense that he was perhaps higher up in command than just a guy in the battle apps with some sort of tribute ship. So perhaps holding a higher position of more distinction would make a greater moment of glory for this defeat. But this means that the war with laws is taking a whole sort of 10 years to play out rather than like a single year, which
Dr Rad 34:03 Yeah, and this is one of the things that’s been pointed out by one of the academics that I read, he commented that to lameness is death, in this case is taking place in the first year of what will be an on and off again, conflict. And he kind of asked the question, I will doesn’t entirely make sense that him dying in this year would add up potentially him actually dying in the final year would make sense because then they would have no reason potentially, to continue to backup feed me and they revolt against Rome. So perhaps the death of telomeres actually was something that took place much later, in maybe in like, you know, 426 or something like that when we’re dealing with this flare up of the conflict again, and that the confusion might arise obviously from the name so not only the people that we’ve already highlighted, but the fact that we do have This guy with a surname feeding us mentioned in connection with the conflict. And so this apparently is that the first time that circus is is a console, and there is a tribe of the Serbia near feeding me,
Dr G 35:17 oh, it might just be a family connection
Dr Rad 35:19 or might be a family connection. And you know, certainly a common common additional name that they used or in this early period of the Serbia clan is they did use this, this surname feed now. So potentially him being a magistrate in this year meant that they wanted to put some of the details of the conflict in this year, potentially, potentially like that. Yeah, definitely.
Dr G 35:45 And also, there’s that Roman tendency to minimise enemies to a certain degree. Yeah. And do you really want to put it out there that this really took 10 years to put it down, and it’s like, it’s a bit problematic, it doesn’t look good for Rome to be in a conflict for that long, not in this period. But it would make sense for it to be true. Because we can see that Rome is certainly not preeminent.
Dr Rad 36:15 And there might have also been some confusion about terminology. So apparently, when we get to 426, and we’re getting to the tail end here, Levine makes a reference to the Roman classes fighting in the battle. Now, some people took this to mean that he was referring to the fleet. And therefore this somehow must have meant that there were ships involved in the fighting maybe on the tire bar, fighting in this war against feed in a but what Forsythe has pointed out is that classes must have just met the Roman military Levy. You know, as we’ve talked about, there is this distinction between these two groups, the classes and the infra classrooms are the people that that classify and the people that don’t basically make it into this military role at this point in time, so the people who were in for class and the like out of that, they don’t have that kind of a role in society. And that might be set up with the power dynamics we’re seeing with patricians versus plebeians, maybe being something to do with that distinction as well, in terms of those who serve the state and those who don’t serve this. In that sense, obviously, the complexities of it all I know. So there are a lot of questions here. But once again, we have to highlight that obviously, with those statues being erected to the ambassador’s there is this archaeological, potentially evidence. And also, as you pointed out, the search volume of Mr. That’s one by courses, that also would be something that presumably, there’ll be some traces of, by the time you get, oh,
Dr G 37:54 yeah, it gets caught up, and it gets connected to other things. And certainly, Augustus, for instance, he’s very interested in this boiler optimal that is in that temple and trying to date it precisely. So there is a sense in which this is really important to a Roman sense of their understanding of the history. Yeah. And so causes can’t just fall out of the narrative, he has to be somewhere. And he has to do this thing at some point. And it’s just a matter of where it comes up and how it unfolds.
Dr Rad 38:23 Yeah. And then, of course, there is the golden crown that Livy mentions, whether it’s dedicated by the dictator in the capital and tempo to commemorate this victory over FedUni. So there’s that again. So there are these pieces of actual physical evidence that might be tying things together. And I am interestingly, just going to note something about those ambassadors doctors all do. Yeah, there is a bit of questioning around the names of these ambassadors, oh, we do have a couple of different versions because being a statue, it’s something that crops up in a couple of different accounts. So typically, Pliny the Elder and his natural history, you know, with all the wood loves that kind of stuff, random facts that he records, but also Cicero mentions the names as well. We do have these slight differences in their names, but clue alias and naughty years, we are pretty sure that they are patricians. However, the others, the one I said, rocked roseus Yeah, exactly. There are questions about him and full sinners about their patrician status. Okay, that potentially again, as we’ve talked about before, it’s not a precise science. But given the ways that the names are used later on, it seems that we only really know plebeian people with those sorts of names
Dr G 39:39 in tourists. So once
Dr Rad 39:41 again, it kind of raises the question of does that mean that this is just a patrician branch that’s died out, you know, or some sort of other confusion like that, or is it the case that you didn’t actually have to be patrician to be in the Senate? Huh?
Dr G 39:59 Or huh? Do not draw your ambassadors from the Senate. Can they be drawn from elsewhere?
Dr Rad 40:05 I think from memory they weren’t mentioned as being from the Senate. But I will do it
Dr G 40:12 which it would be very interesting for there to be any plebeians in the Senate. Point it worked. That’s that’s part of the reason why I asked the question.
Dr Rad 40:21 No, it is obviously one of those things where it’s like what, but as we talked about before, academics have sort of raised questions about but we know for sure that there are certain religious positions and political Majesties, which plebeians don’t seem to be able to hold at this point in time, certainly. But the Senate is one of those things that’s not often specifically targeted by plebeians as being we want to be in the Senate. We want to be in the Senate, which might
Dr G 40:45 suggest they’re already there in some capacity,
Dr Rad 40:49 potentially. But yeah, obviously, it’s all very circumstantial. It’s kind of looking at the absence of evidence in some ways, rather than actual,
Dr G 40:58 concrete evidence, the realm of ancient historians. We love a good absence.
Dr Rad 41:04 But anyway, I think that’s probably a good point to wrap up for 37 a lot of confusion and certainly you will be hearing mention of these people again, because the whole situation was fitting a is not resolved.
Dr G 41:17 Yeah, it make it keep coming up. And we might see Costas do his thing again for 26. Sequel sequel, last alumnus rises from the dead early to be re killed by the same man who killed him the first time I’m going
Dr Rad 41:33 to spoil Yeah, that up Irma all over again. All right, Dr. G, that means that it is once again time for the virtual big.
All right, so Dr. G, this is a chance for the Romans to pick up a total of 50 Golden Eagle, we’ve got five categories and 10 Eagles and each up for grabs.
Dr G 42:00 Well, well, well, the first category to consider is military clout.
Dr Rad 42:07 Well, I mean, this is definitely, I mean, can you not give it
Dr G 42:12 like, yeah, 10 I mean, as far as what Libby is concerned, what Finn knows destroyed right now? Well, I
Dr Rad 42:18 mean, he he says, there’s a lot of massacres and stuff. He has hinted that, you know, some people escaped into the mount. Oh, but certainly, it’s been a decisive victory. I mean, to be honest, just because it costs us alone. And the fact that they allegedly killed the Etruscan king here seems to have been pretty cool.
Dr G 42:35 Yeah, I mean, we have to give it to the very handsome causes. So I think,
Dr Rad 42:39 yeah, I mean, we might have to give him 10 Eagles, again, in a few episodes. But I at the moment, just for the sake of clarity, I think we have to say, look, we’re going to agree with our sources, even though there’s some confusion. Look,
Dr G 42:50 yeah, yeah. Even if we disagree with the sources, as far as the sources are concerned, there was a great victory in this year. Yeah. And it’s over for DNA. And the Romans showed excellent military clouds. So that’s 10. Eagles right there.
Dr Rad 43:04 Exactly. Okay, so next category is diplomacy.
Dr G 43:10 Well, is war the greatest form of diplomacy you’ve ever seen? I don’t think so. Well, in that case, it’s a zero.
Dr Rad 43:18 I think we have to assume that diplomacy is broken down and conflict going on. Not that I actually blame the Romans for that this time around.
Dr G 43:25 Okay, so no score. I don’t think so. Okay, well, expansion,
Dr Rad 43:30 kind of, I mean, they kind of reassert themselves over feeding a, but it was already this so
Dr G 43:39 well, but feed Nate was lost. And we did give them a minor score for losing feed. The last point. Yeah, so one point for rigging isn’t really an expansion. It’s just regaining what’s theirs as far as they’re concerned. Okay. So one point for that. We’re tourists. Well look causes 20 Golden Eagles right there. Knock, you know, the ballpark. Nobody’s seen anything like this is Romulus?
Dr Rad 44:02 Exactly. On top of which he got all the other guys. You know, you got Fabius got capital, Linus. You’ve got mimickers everyone’s doing a great showing. Yeah. So join us all around. I think it’s probably got to be another attention. Yeah, absolutely. It’s
Dr G 44:17 Romans. Yeah, boy, put them in war. And all of a sudden they’re doing great.
Dr Rad 44:20 They shine, huh? What would it be like
Dr G 44:23 to be a citizen in Rome right now? Well, I
Dr Rad 44:26 mean, okay, we might be a bit suspicious sometimes when we don’t hear a lot from the citizens about how they’re actually feeling. However, my account does say that they were, you know, happy to jump on board this time around because they recognise that ambassadors had been murdered and that the Etruscans were being a problem. So it’s bad news, guys. Yeah, I mean, and obviously, the fact that they secured a victory even though room some of our citizens plebeians might occasionally have a problem with some of rooms other citizens patricians. At At the same time, I think they do share certain values. I think they still will be pleased by this turn of events. Hmm, yeah. All right. So
Dr G 45:09 about a five. Yeah, I
Dr Rad 45:11 think so. I mean, they apparently, you know, saying dedicated the crown the dictator is like, no problem. So, and I agree that these men deserved a triumph. So yeah. Got on board with the party. touchy. Hold on to your toga
Dr G 45:27 mathematics. Yeah,
Dr Rad 45:29 this means that room has scored 26 Golden Eagles. Oh, I’ll pass over 50% for the first time, and I actually don’t know that they didn’t.
Dr G 45:45 Long time. A long time. Wow. room. Okay. Well, it
Dr Rad 45:51 just goes to show all you have to do is single handedly defeat the great and glorious commander of your opponents in battle and steal all his stuff. And Hoo, boy, yeah, yeah, really dramatically changes the situation rooms back in the saddle. It really is. Well, I’m looking forward to seeing how they’re gonna follow this one up.
Dr G 46:11 Probably with a terrible school
Dr Rad 46:14 thing. I mean, you have to again, wonder I’m just gonna finish off on this note, Dr. Jean. We have often noted that when Rome goes through a bad period, miraculously there’s this amazing military campaign or something like that, that happens just afterwards, she makes you forget about all the horrible stuff that happened when they you know, murdered an equestrian who was providing grain for everyone. So part of me does have to wonder are they potentially also moving things out a little bit in the timeline because Rome’s just been through such a tough period. Well, I put a damper on this parade.
Dr G 46:46 Stay tuned as we find out whether these narratives directly paralleled in 10 years time indeed.
Dr Rad 47:04 Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. We are especially grateful for the support provided by our Patreon and today we’d like to give a special shout out to Sharon Robin and Dr. G’s favourite. Do you use Augustus who have been showing a lot of interest on our Patreon posts recently, you too can support our show and help us to produce more fabulous content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes as well as the occasional bonus episode, and you now get to see us in action in some of our recording sessions. However, there are other ways that you can support our show. We know that a monthly membership isn’t for everyone and therefore we now have a goodbye account. So you can head on over there and buy us a cup of coffee whenever you feel the urge. However, one of the biggest things you can do to support the show is just to spread the word and leave us with some five star reviews. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Partial Recap – The 440s BCE
Aug 18, 2022
This is our short scripted summary of what the ancient sources tell us about the events of the 440s BCE. If you would like more detail and analysis, be sure to check out our regular episodes from the Foundation of Rome series.
The Partial Recap for the 440s BCE
To pick up our detailed episodes for this period, we recommend starting with Episode 109 – The First Decemvirate. Although the decemvirs come to power in c. 451 BCE, their story has so much influence on the decade of the 440s that you simply wouldn’t want to miss it!
Image of the Forum courtesy of Benson Kua via Flickr.
Transcript for the 440s BCE
Introduction
FR – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 440s BCE!
PG – I’m Dr G
FR – and I’m Dr Rad
PG – and this is our highlights edition of the 440s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 449 to 440 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
FR – Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee – but please be warned – this episode contains references to murder, violence and sexual assault.
PG – Get ready for a recappuccino.
449 BCE
It’s hard to believe, but when the 440s dawned, Rome was still in the grip of the second decemvirate. Quelle horreur!
449 BCE was simply jam-packed with developments – it’s almost too much to believe… so we have no time to waste!
The days of the decemvirate were numbered. On top of the threat of external enemies, these guys really know how to get their fellow Romans offside.
The decemvirs arrange the murder of the highly popular plebeian, Lucius Siccius Dentatus. He’s been speaking out against them far too much, but he’s too highly regarded to kill outright. His death is staged carefully, so that it does not arouse suspicion.
Pretty awful stuff, but that’s nothing compared to their next act.
One of the most prominent decemvirs, the uber-patrician Appius Claudius, is seized with a desire for a plebeian maiden, Verginia.
He tries all sorts of legal tricks to get his paws on her, and it seems like he might succeed, in spite of strenuous opposition from her family.
In desperation to protect his daughter’s virginity, and by extension his family’s honour, her father ends up seizing a nearby knife and stabbing her to death in the Forum.
Verginia’s body is displayed to the crowd, a horrible symbol of the excesses of the Second Decemvirate
The plebeians are outraged – and this time, they are not alone. Some of the patricians aren’t that impressed with this tyrannical regime either.
Patricians Valerius and Horatius start standing up to Appius Claudius and his gang of decemvirs.
Meanwhile, Verginius has fled Rome after murdering his daughter. He makes contact with some of Rome’s armed forces and convinces them to revolt against the decemvirs.
A secession of the plebs quickly follows. The plebeians gave the senate an ultimatum – it’s the decemvirs or us!
Thanks to some skilful negotiation between Valerius and Horatius, the plebs return to the state and the decemvirs resign.
The consulship is restored and given to Varlius and Horatius.
This dynamic duo pass the Valerio-Horatian Laws, which restored the sacrosanctity of the tribune of the plebs, restored the right of citizens to appeal, and made the decisions of plebeians binding on all Romans.
And there’s some vengeance to be sought against the decemvirs now that they are back on the same level as everyone else.
The biggest fish to fry? Well, that would be Appius Claudius, who is pursued by the new tribune of the plebs, Verginius. But before he is officially condemned, he dies in custody under extremely shady circumstances.
It seems like some of the tribunes might be getting big ideas
448 BCE
From the incredible detail of 449 BCE, we turn to the blankness of 448 BCE
In 448 BCE the consuls were Lars (or Sp.) Herminius Cortinesanus and Titus Verginius Tricostus Caeliomontanus
Weirdly, some of the plebeian tribunes were patrician ex-consuls.
Understandably, not everyone is thrilled by this development, and so a fellow tribune, Lucius Trebonius, fights to preserve the integrity of tribune elections.
447 BCE
In 447 BCE the consuls were Marcus Geganius Macerinus and Caius Iulius
They appeased the plebs by suspending a levy for a war against the Volscians and Aequians
Unfortunately, the young patricians start acting out again and committing acts of violence against the plebs, and even the tribunes themselves.
No one seemed to be able to keep them in check… or to at least, no one with power was that invested in keeping them in check.
446 BCE
In 446 BCE the consuls were Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus and Agrippa Furius
The Romans were facing a combined force of Aequians and the Volscians who could smell their internal issues from just a few miles away… because they were pretty close.
Riding high on their recent victory, the Romans are called in to settle a border dispute between the cities of Aricia and Ardea.
The people make the terrible decision to take the land for themselves
445 BCE
And in 445 BCE, their greed is causing problems in Ardea, where a revolt has broken out
The consuls for the year were Marcus Genucius Augurinus and Caius Curtius Philo
Not only were these men facing revolt in Ardea, but attack from the Veientes, Aequians and Volscians
However, the plebeians, led by the tribune Caius Canuleius, refused to fight unless one of the laws passed by the second decemvirate was overturned. This law had forbidden intermarriage between patricians and plebeians.
They also demanded a share in the consulship.
The horror felt by the patricians at this suggestion cannot be described.
After a lot of angst, a compromise is reached – the marriage law will be overturned and a new position was introduced – military tribunes with consular power.
444 BCE
In 444 BCE the military tribunes with consular power were Aulus Sempronius Atratinus, Lucius Atilius Luscus and Titus Cloelius Sicilus
Unfortunately, it seems there were some issues with the auspices surrounding their inauguration and so an interrex was called in to sort the situation – Titus Quinctius Barbatus
They were soon replaced with actual consuls – Lucius Papirius Mugillanus and Lucius Sempronius Atratinus
Ardean ambassadors arrived, needing to discuss the ramifications of Rome’s decision to take their land
443 BCE
In 443 BCE the consuls were Marcus Geganius Macerinus and Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus
It was time for a census… except the consuls were less than thrilled with the prospect of paperwork and administration.
This led to the creation of the office of the censor, and the selection of Lucius Papirius Mugillanus and Lucius Sempronius Atratinus to oversee the work.
Their bureaucratic glory was overshadowed by the eruption of civil war in Ardea.
A family disagreement over the marriage of a hot plebeian girl quickly exploded into a hot Ardean mess. Only Rome could save them now!
Hello, sweet atonement.
442 BCE
In 442 BCE the consuls were Marcus Fabius Vibulanus and Postumus Aebutius Helva Cornicen
Still trying to atone for their greed over the Ardean land grab, the ROmans send out a triumviri coloniae deducendae – or three guys to set up a colony.
The sneaky plan is to give land in this colony back to the native people, before any Romans received a blade of grass.
Peace, peace at last!
441 BCE
In 441 BCE the consuls were Gaius Furius Pacilus Fusus and Marcus Papirius Crassus
What better way to finish off the decade than with some games… that were promised a decade ago by the decemvirs.
Poetelius, one of the tribunes of the plebs, tried his darndest to get the plebeians some land or something, but he had no luck.
440 BCE
In 440 BCE the consuls were Proculus Geganius and Lucius Menenius Lanatus
And sadly, the decade did not finish well for Rome.
A terrible famine hit, and the patricians and plebs quickly turned on each other
Lucius Minucius was elected prefect of the corn-supply but did not have a huge amount of success. It seems like the situation got real dark, real quick
Desperate times called for desperate measures – an equestrian named Spurius Maelius used his personal fortune to buy corn from Etruria and distributed it for nothing, making him very popular with the plebs.
Maelius let this all go to his head and started plotting to become king.
How weird to begin and end the decade with schemes for the ultimate domination of Rome?
Conclusion
FR – And that was the 440s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
PG – Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes.
FR – Thanks for joining us for this Partial Recap!
Rome has just experienced a scandal like no other. A terrible famine had hit in the years 440-439 BCE, and this had caused political chaos. The patrician appointed to secure grain, Lucius Minucius, had not experienced much success. Into the void stepped a wealthy equestrian named Spurius Maelius.
Maelius either allowed his newfound popularity as the bringer of grain to go to his head and started plotting to seize control of Rome, or he was foisted into power by the people. Either way, his journey ended in a bloody stabbing, thanks to Master of the Horse, Servilius Ahala. Did Maelius incite the violence, or was Ahala a secret assassin? It is no wonder that we have some mopping up to do. Things are very messy.
Episode 128 – Mopping Up Maelius
Some classical reception in action with this Statue of Cincinnatus at his plough in Cincinnati, Ohio, Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Get the Mop, and the Bulldozer
Cincinnatus, our possible dictator for 439 BCE, gave instructions for the house of Maelius to be destroyed and turned into a memorial to his crazy plans. The site became known as the Aequimaelium, and it was located on the Vicus Iugarius. The man who revealed Maelius’ treachery, Lucius Minucius, received his own ox and a gilded statue outside the Porta Trigemina.
Less pleasantly, the severed heads of the traitors were placed on display by a pool in the Forum (the Lacus Servilius). What better place to reflect on poor choices.
There are strange parallels in this history and other periods in Roman history which can make one dubious of this whole affair. However, mopping up Maelius seems to have produced a number of physical reminders that were still a feature of Rome many centuries later.
Snitches Get Stitches?
On top of the statue, Lucius Minucius was transferred to the plebeian class and made a tribune of the plebs. Record scratch! Are snitches supposed to get lots of honours? They do if it benefits the powers-that-be in Rome! This might be a sign that the patricians were still wary after Maelius and wanted one of their men on the inside. One who was known to be a tattle-tale.
That’s One Way to Say No
The political scene might have settled down in the city, but Rome was about to be dealt a brutal blow from a colony. Fidenae decided to throw their lot in with Veii, an Etruscan city under the control of King Lars Tolumnius.
Rome could hardly ignore such a betrayal and despatched four envoys. The people of Fidenae were not familiar with the saying, ‘Don’t shoot the messenger’ and executed these men. There is some confusion over their extreme actions. Lars Tolumnius was suspected of having orchestrated the deaths in an attempt to bind Fidenae closer to Veii.
How will Rome respond to such an insult? Tune in to find out!
Our Players 439 BCE
Consuls
Agrippa Menenius T. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.)
T. Quinctius L.f. L.n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) – Cos. 471, 468, 465, 446, 443.
Dictator
L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 460
Master of the Horse
C. Servilius – f. – n. Ahala (Pat.)
Praefectus Annonae
L. Minucius (Esquilinus Augurinus) (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 458
Wealthy Equestrian
Spurius Maelius
Our Players 438 BCE
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Mam. Aemilius (M.f. – n. Mamercinus?) (Pat.)
L. Quinctius L.f.L.n. Cincinnatus (Pat.) – Cos. 428b, Mil. Tr. c.p. 425, 420.
L. (or C.) Iulius – f. – n. Iullus (Pat.) – Cos. 430.
Legates, Ambassadors
C. Fulcinius
Cloelius Tullus (Pat.)
Sp. Antius
L. Roscius
Tribune of the Plebs
Q. Caecilius
Q. Iunius
Sex. Titinius
Etruscan King
Lars Tolumnius
Our Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 12.38
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.16-17.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to BBC Sounds, Orange Free Sounds and Sound Bible for sound effects, and the lovely Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Domenico Beccafumi 1535. Gaius Servilius Ahala presenting the body of Spurius Maelius to Cincinnatus
Automated Transcript
Provided by Otter AI. Apologies as always – AI readers do struggle not only with Latin but also Australian accents!
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to the partial historians,
Dr G 0:19 we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from
Dr Rad 0:23 the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:02 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G. And sitting beside me looking incredible as always start to read. I’m spurious furious today.
Dr G I’m a feminist witch apparently, yeah,
Dr Rad This is for those listening to the audio only version of the podcast.
Dr G 1:27 And we are deep in the history of Rome from the founding of the city, really. And were well into what is the early republic at this point?
Dr Rad I would say we are. So I’d like to do a bit of a recap, if I may, Dr. G. I mean, I don’t know if it’s possible to recap all the things that we went through last episode, but I’m gonna give it a shot. Go for it. So we were dealing with the character spurious Malleus and upstart equestrian. Also, the sources would have us believe a man who makes the grain rain down on Rome. That’s right. He’s not like, he’s more like DDT
Dr G 2:07 imagined small little grains falling out my face. But I am hungry, and from my mouth.
Dr Rad Yeah. So spring Ismailia come along, during this time where room seems to be experiencing a grain shortage. And it’s not the only time in the early republic that Rome would go through this problem. I mean, we’ve talked before about the fact that this century, particularly this middle part that we’re in right now does seem to be a particularly tough time for Rome. And that’s not just going by the little hints we get in the sources, like this one talking about a bad famine, but also the archaeology, which we’ve mentioned before. Yeah, there seems to be less building projects. There’s just sort of less growth and expansion all round. And it seems like it’s not just Rome, it seems to be most of the Latin region, at the very least, if not greater Italy as well. Yeah. Which would explain why they were struggling to get some green from the neighbour. Everyone’s like, I need to hold on to my supplies. can’t share. I can’t spare a square.
Dr G 3:08 Yeah, so we had this issue and screws, Malleus had taken it upon himself to use his private fortune to try and restore the balance to bring grain back to room. But this didn’t go down well, with everybody did it? It did. No, no, it went badly enough that things got out of hand. Yeah. And violence ensued.
Dr Rad Indeed. And we had such conflicting accounts. So I, I was actually so blown away, that I couldn’t really even process it last time, which is why I wanted to do quite an in depth recap this time. Okay. First of all, when we’re talking about spruce malleus, depending on which account you are following, there are slightly different periods of scientists. So for me, it was definitely a blend of 440 and 439. Whereas, because we’re missing Dionysius, we really could only pick up the narrative in the main pattern for 39 years, right? Correct. Yes, exactly. But thanks to your super research skills, we did get that tidbit from plenty, which seem to indicate that famine was coming because we have that story. But the other dude who lowered the price, low price, we did have a what it said an eight all of the grain suppliers actually lower the price right down. So we’ve got this sort of foreshadowing that things are bad, yes, on the grain front and the supply. So what we were dealing with was the fact that there was officially appointed a guy called the nucleus to be the prefect of the crane because he was meant to be the guy solving the grand crisis. So of course, he didn’t take it well, when this other guy was showing him up. Even worse, he took it really badly when people shoved him off his magisterial chair and put my alias on instead being like, this guy knows how to solve the grain problem. He is solving the same problem. You sir, say you’re solving the grain problem, but or not exactly to see that was only in your account, my curiosity to figure this all out. So first of all, I have seen it said, Dr. G, that the idea of having a prefect of the grain supply might be a little anachronistic
Dr G 5:18 time look, that would not surprise me at all. And I think there, it’s pretty fair to say that what we’re seeing with this kind of narrative, this early Republic is a bit of a mix and match of the things that come up with grain supply. Yeah, that really concerned the Romans in the late Republic, and the parallels with the issue of the gracchi. And what happens there is playing on historians minds when they write about this early period. And I don’t think there’s any way to disentangle that kind of mess, because the Romans that are writing these annalistic histories like Libya and Dionysus of how it can assist them very much of the opinion that that greerton grain crisis is the way to understand grain supply in Rome. And we’re not going to ruin that story for you, because you’re going to have to tune in to when we get to like 133 BCE to find out what’s going on with the Iraqi
Dr Rad 6:13 is to date for 10 years. When we finally get to that point. We will see you there. Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, I would like to say that I did make a bit of a boo boo last time, I accidentally said I know that Manoukian has had a history, the American family Sorry, I had a history with Korea laners which is partly true, but this specific Manoukian has a history with Cincinnatus, which is what I know. Okay. Now, the reason why I bring that up again, is not just to acknowledge my slight misstep there, but also because we had this appointment of Cincinnatus as dictator, and him choosing as his master of the horse. Aha. Oh, yeah, exactly. Now, the appointment of Cincinnatus as dictator is another thing. I think that the scholarship has been like, really? Is he really, because and this is the interesting thing about the history of Manoukian is not only does the Manoukian family have a history of dealing with green issues in the past, going all the way back to the early republic. But there is this personal history where Manoukian this Manoukian has got into trouble in 458 BCE, militarily and was bailed out by Cincinnatus. Oh,
Dr G 7:35 okay, so we’re talking some like, pretty unique connections. Yeah.
Dr Rad 7:39 So is this another parallel where Manoukian has been appointed prefect of the green supply isn’t doing a great job. In fact, there’s obviously a pretty serious problem going on if your account is correct. And he’s actually been kicked out of office by just a random group of people. I mean, I hope it’s true. On the flip side. Yes, exactly. And in that case, is Cincinnatus coming to his rescue? Once again, do I know so there’s some weird parallels in the story there? So I’m just gonna highlight that. But now let’s talk about Malleus. Again, dodgy? Oh, let’s. So we did mention last episode that he does seem to be one of these people that I feel like the patricians in particular have a problem with now the question is, of course, is even real.
Dr G 8:31 Do they have imaginary problems?
Dr Rad 8:34 I think the randoms do have imaginary problems all the time. But the fact that there is this blending in my account, and probably in yours, if we had it between 440 and 439, that actually is kind of breaking with annalistic tradition a bit, isn’t it? Because we talked about how the fact that they like to have everything sort of neatly tied up in one year. But the way that this is kind of messily spread from 440. And really into like, the different talk about the aftermath into 438, that maybe lends some support for it being a real person and not just someone who was created to, you know, make a point or something like that.
Dr G 9:11 I think this also fits into the broader issues that we’re facing with our narratives right now, which we’ve just entered into this period where you can not only have consoles, but you can also have military Tribune’s with consular power. Now, what we’re going to see for this and this is a bit of foreshadowing is probably about a 50 year stretch of things being quite confusing, politically, and narratively, and being able to confine events to a single year as analysts would like to do. Yes, gonna be a bit tricky because some of this is not going to be easily tied up. It’s going to spill over. People aren’t going to be sure what’s going on and they don’t know where they stand. And we’re gonna see a lot of dictators just say,
Dr Rad 9:54 excellent. We’ll see this is the interesting thing. I mean, so we have Cincinnati’s being mentioned Is that a legitimate connection? That probably seems like the shady is part to me? Because as has been highlighted again, in the academia, he doesn’t really do much. No. I mean,
Dr G 10:12 is there a marriage that we don’t know about?
Dr Rad 10:14 It’s weird. Like the previously when we’ve seen Cincinnatus in action, he does actually take centre stage. Now I know he’s an old man at
Dr G 10:23 something at this point, maybe, you know, he’s like, I’m retiring guys, this is my last ones.
Dr Rad 10:27 Exactly. Like I know that he would be older. And I know that he’s not necessarily the federal character. I mean, he’s definitely not the federal character here. They’re trying to explain other things. But it just does seem a little off, that he’d be involved and yet, not involved. You know? It’s a bit weird there. But you do have sources other than Livia. Dionysius mentioning him. So Cicero also mentions that Cincinnatus was made dictator to deal whisperer Ismailia. Specifically,
Dr G 10:56 yeah, I didn’t know that. Yeah, I don’t have huge doubts, necessarily, that it’s an artist is doing some stuff. Yeah. Now whether it’s this old guy, Cincinnatus classics in scenarios, or whether actually they might be Miss attributing something that should be going to his son. I think that’s maybe a question that could be a little bit open, because we do see his son enter into politics quite soon after this point in the narrative as well. Yeah, definitely.
Dr Rad 11:21 And then we’ve also got we as we know, we’ve got a lot of quick di on the scene. We have capital liners again being a consular this year. So potentially, it’s also that family connections. So maybe Cincinnatus was around. But it’s hard to say. But certainly, there do seem to be points to this story in terms of what our sources are trying to achieve. And some of them are what might seem like fairly minor points, I suppose. Like explaining how the name a holla came up.
Unknown Speaker 11:53 Oh,
Dr Rad 11:55 exactly what she was doing really well, last time, which had to do with like the armpit, which just sounds so disgusting. I don’t know why you would want that. It’s your
Dr G 12:02 way you hide your dagger before you go into the forum, obviously.
Dr Rad 12:05 Yeah, exactly. It’s also trying to explain something that’s going to happen later in our account. So the erecting of a particular monument, I think Oh, hello. Yes, exactly. So I think it’s going to explain that it might also be trying to explain so in your account, you mentioned, I think that some of the treacherous peoples that were associated with Bruce Malleus had their heads cut off and displayed. Awkward. Yes. That became a practice. So there was this pool in the forum, apparently.
Unknown Speaker 12:39 A pool in the forum.
Dr Rad 12:41 For heads, yes. Where you can reflect on your treachery?
Dr G 12:43 Oh,
Dr Rad 12:46 yes. So apparently, there was this pool in the forum called the lacquers. Sir William, which is where the heads of treaters would be displayed. I see. I see. I was actually surprised about that. Because I don’t know that I ever actually heard mention of this.
Dr G 13:01 Yeah. I’d like to see more of that. Yeah. We don’t get enough of the reflective pool of treachery in later Roman history,
Dr Rad 13:08 reflecting. Ah, the moment but then there is another thing that we should perhaps mention here as well. Oh, yeah. Which is the weird kind of parallel you can see between the story of a holla and another Republican here, one scalable, ah,
Dr G 13:35 oh, well, well, I haven’t done any research on Skype, although I feel like we’re a long way from him.
Dr Rad 13:40 That is okay. But so good Skype, or someone we mentioned a long, long time ago. So he was basically given senatorial approval to assassinate someone who was being annoying for Rome. And that would be one that poor centre.
Dr G 13:53 Oh, that was a long time ago, a long time ago. And
Dr Rad 13:57 part of his story was explaining the origins of his name. So stay Mola, meaning left handed because part of his whole shenanigans, you know, he put his left hand into the fire was like, ah, yeah, as a test of
Dr G 14:11 sinister. That’s what I’d call that.
Dr Rad 14:14 So there is an interesting parallels here, especially with your account, not so much mine. But if things went down, as they apparently did, Indonesias. There are some interesting parallels there. Because in your account, a hollow does seem to have been given like senatorial sanction to go and assassinate malleus, who is seen as being a troublemaker for the state.
Dr G 14:36 It’s a huge problem. And we see a return as sort of again and again in some of the latest source material that what happens to a holla in the wake of this assassination is unfortunate and unfair, because the thing he was doing was saving the Republic essentially and even if it was illegal, sure. li if it’s to save the Republic, it’s okay. Yes, yes. Is when he gets exiled?
Dr Rad 15:06 Well, yes. But as you said, like was that because he was the full guy? And he knew that.
Dr G 15:11 Yeah. But Cicero comes back to this time and time again, lots of mentions in Cicero’s speeches in various different places in his corpus where he’s kind of like, Yeah, but you remember what happened to that guy? And he got exiled. And that’s not fair.
Dr Rad 15:24 Yeah, exactly. So yeah, just wanted to highlight all of that kind of stuff in there. Because they certainly have been, as they usually are, for this period that we’re dealing with. There are always questions raised, I think, in the academia about how real some of these days or is it something that the Romans have constructed over time to tell certain narratives about themselves and their past and that sort of thing? And like,
Dr G 15:45 yeah, and I think it’s a good point to make. And I’d probably come down on the side of Cornell on this, and reading some of his work recently, where he’s talking about the way in which these stories are so distinctive, and there are really particular sort of etymologies drawn out of them. It’s like the chances of them being completely fabricated, seems slim. Now, how mixed up the details might be in the retelling and, and the way that which people assert their own kind of interests, and reference points into how they retell those tales is another thing that we can really think about. But the idea that this is just completely made up Roman history. Yeah, it seems pretty unlikely. Absolutely. Some stuff is happening. And we’re in this period, which seems to be politically very unstable.
Dr Rad 16:34 Yes. I think that’s the thing. I think that the more I look at this, I can say, okay, yes, you can see that there are some slightly mythical or folklore ish aspects to this. And maybe, maybe certain aspects have been slightly exaggerated to form some really interesting parallels that the Romans themselves might be drawing between, you know, earlier events, and then this thing that’s happening, but I agree, I actually do lean on the side of most of these elements being based on something real. The interesting thing is just those different traditions because we had such different accounts of how it all went down. I mean, yes. In the end. Yes. Was
Dr G 17:15 the important details are the same. Yeah, but man is dead. Yeah. And Rome is swimming and grain.
Dr Rad 17:22 But yeah, yours was so much more sinister than mine. Oh, yeah. Mine was just a guy. I mean, you know, it was a kind of story that you might hear in certain countries these days where
Dr G 17:30 I’m just wondering if somebody’s destroyed Dionysius of Halicarnassus is script on purpose because they don’t, they can’t handle the truth. They
Dr Rad 17:39 said. But anyway, so I just wanted highlight that as we’re going through, because after thinking about how different our accounts were, and how yours just seems so much more sinister, and yet also, as you said, like I was really taken in the vision of the senatorial conspiracy, and I feel like spirits Melee is gonna roar deal, man. But anyway, that’s my recap for 440 and 430.
Dr G 18:10 And with that, let us move into the next year in rooms analyst history.
Kids for the APTA what I can tell you is that dinosaurs of Halicarnassus is missing for this year,
Dr Rad 18:42 get out of town. It’s really sad how often that’s happening now.
Dr G 18:46 All right, yeah, it’s gonna happen more than more. Yeah, yeah. It’s turning into fragments all around me.
Dr Rad 18:52 Very well, then. Well, I shall tell you then what I have. So it actually kind of goes straight into the aftermath for me and for 38 in Livi. So before I go into that, though, I might just give you a little bit of detail about who we’ve got ruling room at this summer. Yeah. Who’s in charge? Yeah. So we have military tribunes with concealer palette.
Dr G 19:17 Oh, okay. After a dictator, we need a palate cleanser.
Dr Rad 19:21 We haven’t had many of these since that was a possibility. No, it’s been very console heavy.
Dr G 19:27 Yeah, we have one group and then they got pushed out because the ritual wasn’t done properly. I think some replaced by cons. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I haven’t had a great track record.
Dr Rad 19:36 I have one. Look at some milliers or maybe member centres. Oh, yeah, man,
Dr G 19:44 that scene is a member member scenesse. Yes, indeed. Marcus. Amelia mustiness. Yes. And then as you highlighted,
Dr Rad 19:50 I have one Lucius Quintus. Cincinnatus.
Dr G 19:55 Ah, yes. So this is the son of the famous Cincinnatus dicta data of the previous year and dictator of 458 as well,
Dr Rad 20:04 definitely. And they are very patricians. No one will be shocked to learn. And then there is also perhaps either Lucius or NYAS.
Unknown Speaker 20:15 You Julius. Julius oohs?
Dr Rad 20:18 Yes, exactly. Another patrician. Yeah.
Dr G 20:21 All right. So they’ve opened it up to military tributes for cultural power. And it’s just patricians all the way down.
Dr Rad 20:26 Yeah, I kind of thought The point was to you know, mix it up a little bit. Yeah, but apparently, apparently no, yeah, there you go. There you go. Anyway, so, what we have got here is that we have got the order going out that the House of spurious Malleus needs to be destroyed. Oh, I mentioned this in the last episode, as a bit of a foreshadowing so the house is gonna be destroyed because such were seen sanity and em this of his plan that they needed to make sure the very existence of the place
Dr G 21:02 okay, so this is like the literal house here’s literally like a plague upon your houses and families. Various
Dr Rad 21:09 now this is actual house because of course, lest you forget Dr. G. He did a lot of his planting there.
Dr G 21:14 Did he hide the grain there as well painted,
Dr Rad 21:17 painted. And so this memorial apparently was named the a chameleon. So this story is obviously again trying to explain the origin story of a particular space a particular memorial in the city. Now, apparently, according to SR, he said it came from the word equals or just but virus says it just means like from level so that would kind of make sense given the like, not his house to the ground. And this place was located in the weakest you guard us, which is just below the Capitol. So this week, because Garius is apparently the road that connects the emporium and the forum, barbarian to the Roman Forum. So it is pretty close to the to the heart of things that’s kind of at the base of the Capitol line Hill. And apparently, it ends up coming into the farm, just between the Temple of satin, and what it would eventually be there, Basilica, Yulia. And we got all that information very helpfully from each room live. So thank you very much for helping us out with our geography.
Dr G 22:18 It’s a nice spot. And so do they build something else? There? They are
Dr Rad 22:22 into erecting something else. Okay. I bet they are unnecessarily dirty. So Lucas Manoukian, our prefect of the grand who apparently was useless and yet is still going to be rewarded. Because he’s on the right side of history,
Dr G 22:38 because he’s a patrician and it always works out for those guys. Yeah.
Dr Rad 22:41 So he is going to be given an ox and a gilded statue.
Dr G 22:45 Why What’s he done?
Dr Rad 22:47 Well, he reported sprees.
Dr G 22:49 Oh, I use a snitch. Just don’t respect over what snitches
Dr Rad 22:59 so this apparently was stand outside the porter trigger Mina. Okay, tricking me to demean just trips off the tongue, it does. This apparently is an area that is associated with like wolves and, you know, trade and that kind of stuff. So I think that therefore, there’s some sort of link there to, you know, grain, any Huzi and so, the pavilions allow this to happen, although you’ve got to assume that they’re not thrilled about this whole situation because spurious Malleus seems to have become very popular with them in particular, so I would have thought they’d be grieving pretty hard.
Dr G 23:38 Yeah, it’s interesting I suppose what I’d be looking for and I don’t have any source material so nothing to go and be like what happens to me aliases body after he is assassinated because he’s put on he’s put on display. So this you got this trade hub pool of reflection, apparently, but actually, the love that the plebeians have or has been held up to have might suggest that they might try to rescue that corpse and maybe give it a proper burial and things like that Lucretius route Yeah, like do we
Dr Rad 24:10 send Virginia started sneaking up on my names lately? Too many of them.
Dr G 24:14 But do they have any sense of which they’re trying to like look after his legacy? Yeah. Aliases Well,
Dr Rad 24:24 Memorial where his house used to be awkward. Yeah, but it just might be not the kind of memorial you might new. Anyway. So then Manoukian has been able because of everything that’s gone down to seize all the corn that Melee has had managed to procure,
Dr G 24:41 oh, I’m not just gonna steal the man’s life. I’m gonna steal his legacy as
Dr Rad 24:45 well. And like, it’s just seems so Patricia. Yeah. But anyway, and then he can distribute it at a very, very low price. Like more than the Lulu that you were talking about before. This is Lulu.
Dr G 24:58 Wow, okay. Yeah. So I wonder if there might be a conflation with what’s going on in those references as well.
Dr Rad 25:05 I was wondering, yeah, back back in the day, when you first referred to that guy, I was like, Is this a reference to this guy to this guy? But certainly it does seem that he was distributing it for
Dr G 25:16 a pretty good bargain basement price. Yeah,
Dr Rad 25:19 exactly. already. Yeah. Now, there’s also another detail about Manoukian. Which I need to pass your way. Yes, get ready for it. So live, he does acknowledge that there are slightly different accounts of this. And he’s using different Australians to sort of piece this all together. But it seems that somehow Manoukian says at this point transferred from the patricians to the plebeian class. I was expecting.
Dr G 25:47 I don’t even know how to react to that. Yeah, and this is why on on what account have
Dr Rad 25:52 you just wait, just wait. They’re making him the lance tribune of the plebs.
Dr G 25:58 You Why?
Dr Rad 26:03 Why do the patricians need to have a reason to read it in the face? Fans?
Dr G 26:11 I don’t know. I just said, I don’t feel like with the sensemaking here.
Dr Rad 26:15 Yeah, it does seem to be an odd one. But I think it was because they wanted a mole. You know, they wanted to make sure that the tribunes weren’t thinking any thoughts, but they didn’t like that might, you know, lead to the pool of treachery? So I think I wanted him in there to steer the ship in the right course. Right. Okay. But to be honest, if you’re going to do that, they’re probably less obvious people to do the job.
Dr G 26:41 Yeah. But and also, he’s snitch once. Why wouldn’t he snitch? Everybody knows what he is. I know, like, who’s going to tell him anything? A meeting at the tribune of the plebs, where there’s no 11 of them. They’re like, well, I guess we’ll win it. This crack is delicious. I’m loving this grain, you know, wait till he goes to the bathroom, like quick plan the overthrow of the government.
Dr Rad 27:00 I know. It does seem like a really legit part to this
Dr G 27:04 story. Yeah, the vibes are off.
Dr Rad 27:07 They’ve really
Dr G 27:10 got to be what do you do it? Well, he
Dr Rad 27:12 does say, you know, different accounts. He does acknowledge there’s
Dr G 27:15 something there’s some discrepancies here.
Dr Rad 27:18 Exactly. Yeah. I mean, all of this seems like a real, you know, wound meet sought to the plebeians, you’ve just lost it here. Because, no, I should have mentioned actually, not only was he given the statue, but like that was paid for the public expense. I mean, I presumed you would guess that that,
Dr G 27:37 of course. Makes total sense. Yeah.
Dr Rad 27:41 So yeah, it does seem like a lot of weirdness going on here in the aftermath, which, again, actually lends credibility, I think, to this story. I mean, and obviously, beyond the written sources that we’re using here, all these physical locations that we’re talking about these physical markers, memorials, and spaces within the city or near the city or whatever. It all suggests that our historians would have been able to verify that these things existed, obviously, yeah, there’s potentially these are things that are still there or still remembered as having been there.
Dr G 28:22 Yeah, I think if we’re talking about archaeological sites, yes, yes. There’s often going to be like a legacy of remembrance in places, which would allow these stories to be recounted, and it’s a matter of them for people like Libyan dynasties of how they make those places. Make sense? Yeah. In accordance with the sorts of stories that they’re hearing from elsewhere? Yeah,
Dr Rad 28:43 exactly. Yeah. Now live, he does note, Dr. G, that he doesn’t think the patricians would let the number of tribute into the playoffs actually get higher. So turning it up to a level.
Dr G 28:56 Yeah, you’re setting a dangerous precedent. Yeah, he
Dr Rad 28:59 don’t say this also seems a little weird. He also is like, why would you make 11? Even if one of them was on your side? Why would the patricians have any interest in introducing this? Because they hate it?
Dr G 29:13 Why would you add things into the thing that you dislike?
Dr Rad 29:15 Yeah. Why would you make its power potentially greater? Okay. And presumably, once you’ve set a precedent because you know, the Romans are very big on precedent. Once you’ve set the precedent of having 11 attributes of the plebs, surely the plebs are going to want to keep it. Lucky number 11. And not go back to 10. So, and also
Dr G 29:37 having 11 would mean that there would never be a tie in the vote on anything. Yeah, I mean, it’s a good number.
Dr Rad 29:43 That’s true, I suppose. But anyway, he basically says that he can’t really be sure about why the weirdness of the details, does mention that he is basing this on an inscription that he’s referring to. I would presume he’s referring to the inscription that would probably We have accompany the statue of Lucius Manoukian.
Dr G 30:03 Wow, maybe, maybe, maybe yeah, I don’t know really what to make of any of that? No. Well, especially
Dr Rad 30:08 because if you consider what we’ve dealt with before, so when they reintroduced tribune of the plebs after the whole December thing, there was an issue as well of them not voting in 10, Tribune’s and people being able to choose colleagues like being like, I’m going to buddy up with that guy, he can be a trillion along with me who was elected, we had that whole story as well. And then that was decided as a bad idea. So yeah, this whole thing really doesn’t seem to add up because we had the passage of the law, the lecture Bonilla, only a few years ago, which said, you have to keep voting until you get the number that you need, which is 10.
Dr G 30:50 Yeah, it seems very odd that anything but like a legal precedent would be able to increase the number to 11.
Dr Rad 30:57 Yes, unless and and this is where the haziness report comes in. You and I have often said that, sometimes we can’t be sure of the numbers that were given for these particular offices, you know that they were this many, and that it was this strict at this point in time.
Dr G 31:14 Yeah. Yeah. And there’s a sense in which like, in the same way that we seem to be navigating, like how do we rule with a top magistrate group? Is it going to be consoles? Is it gonna be military Tribune’s with controller power? We’re having the same sort of issues with the tribune of the plebs. Like, do they pick a buddy? Do we continue to vote until they get them all in? Are we able to just chuck a patrician in there by saying they were plugged in now? Yeah, you know, they’re trying to figure some stuff out here. And I think this is all evidence of the sort of crisis mode that I think Rome is in at the moment where they’re not sure how to do stuff. They haven’t landed on their feet after the second December, it has wrapped up. Yeah, and they’re still really concerned. And on top of that, it’s a famine. And so people have a knot in their right minds. People are desperate, and maybe people are making decisions that they wouldn’t normally make. Yeah, under better conditions.
Dr Rad 32:07 Absolutely. And of course, as you might expect, there is some resistance from the tribune of the plebs that just like me here smile, buddy, my old pal. Yeah, exactly. So apparently, the guys who resisted ah, quinti is key. sylius quinti is unius and Sextus. titanius. Yeah. So these guys are like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
Dr G 32:32 hold up. Nokia three out of the 10. I like.
Dr Rad 32:38 They’re like, Whoa, I don’t think many kids should be getting any of these honours. I mean, are we forgetting the fact that he is surely partially responsible, along with our Hala for the murder of spurious Malleus?
Dr G 32:55 Hello, I mean, you might not like the guy, but he brought a lot of food in
Dr Rad 32:59 exactly. So this is why we ended up getting in for 38. Because this is actually kind of the tail end of 439. For me, this is why in 438, we ended up getting military tribunes with Confederate power, because these guys force through an action to make sure that that’s what’s going to happen. And yet, as I mentioned, they’re all patrician
Dr G 33:22 the rule profession. It’s tough out there. Yeah, this period of Roman history is bonkers.
Dr Rad 33:30 I think that they were obviously assuming that the plebeians would be able to get elected as a military Tribune. Because if they campaigned on the platform that they were going to seek justice for failures, that that would presumably be enough to get them into power. Apparently.
Dr G 33:56 There are many questions.
Dr Rad 33:57 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But this is where we get Amelia Smirkus. very oily guy. And this is where we get Lucy’s Ulus. of future thing in terms of family name. Yes, yes. Pay attention to these people. Yeah. Lucius krytus, who we’ve talked about as being the son of Cincinnatus. So and this is the thing these guys aren’t just patricians. These guys are apparently super, really patrician.
Dr G 34:24 Yeah, these are very prominent families. Yes, fine. Yeah. So that’s very interesting. And I was like, let’s just throw all of the big, big gun petitions into the military
Dr Rad 34:36 tribute. And this is where maybe it does actually all make sense. After the petitions perhaps being really shaken by what happened was furious Malleus they’re not taking any chances that they’re going to have that duck guys on the sea. But how they would make sure that happens, presumably would have to be, you know, using clients, I guess, and that kind of thing. I don’t really know how they would make sure that happens. that?
Dr G 35:01 They do and yeah, yeah. For 38. So I don’t have a lot of detail about this year is pretty fair. Yeah. I have Diodorus Siculus, who lets us know that we’ve got some military Tribune’s rather than console excellence. Fair enough. I agree. Yeah, it’s all over that. But he also then is super interested in the Peloponnesian War. And well, I mean, we’ll pause right there because there’s 438. Yes, BCE in Rome. Sure. And when does the Peloponnesian War start? I actually can’t remember for 31, right. So we’ve got already Diodorus Siculus is giving us a bit of a hint that we’ve got some animalistic potential issues going on here, where the Pharisees don’t necessarily match up to what’s happening elsewhere, or maybe he’s incorrect about when he thinks the Peloponnesian War starts. But there is a sense in which we’re slipping through some of the years. And when maybe not able to hold on to the details as much as we can, and neither can the historians.
Dr Rad 36:01 What are you talking about? Everything we’ve said so far has been so straightforward. It makes so much sense.
Dr G 36:06 Well, it’s gonna it’s gonna keep slipping like this at least in my material for quite a few years. Right. So I’m flagging it now that like, even Diodorus Siculus is kind of like, well, this is the year that you know, you throw Dimas was the Archon in Athens. So he tells you who the Archon is, and right, they usually rule for like anywhere between like a two and four year period, and then he gives you the consoles. So you’re like, okay, cool. And then he’s like, and now on to the Peloponnesian War. And you’re like, Wait a second. Yeah. And he’s super interested in the Peloponnesian War. So he’s like, I’m gonna give you all the details on that, because that is incredible guys through what’s happening in Rome. Yeah, Rome is not that much. not that interesting to me. But the other thing that we get, and this is where I stopped relying on Browse and a lot and like, who’s even who had room at this point in time? Yes. And he tells us, there’s a whole bunch of ambassadors.
Dr Rad 36:55 Yeah. So they’re going to come up in the next part of what I have to say yes,
Dr G 36:59 whole bunch of ambassadors. And so we’ve got Gaius for cuneus. Chloe as tooless, spurious anteus and Lucia roseus. Some of them are named. And we also have mentioned of the Etruscan King loves to luminous
Dr Rad 37:17 is gonna be a big part of my next couple of years. And yeah, he’s,
Dr G 37:21 we’ve got the king of the Etruscans. So the way that a trusting kingship works, as far as we can tell, yes, is that they have they divided up they’ve got 12 kings, essentially, when they’ve got so many different regions with different regions. So they’ve got kings of regions, yes. And then they sort of within themselves, someone might be the king of kings, but
Dr Rad 37:45 very Games of Thrones.
Dr G 37:47 I love the King of kings. It’s hard to know when you encounter an interesting King whether you’ve encountered a king or thinking so
Unknown Speaker 37:55 we are the kings of did Fred me. Last who Lumias,
Dr G 38:07 Trotsky and King and that’s kind of I don’t get any details about what happens to any of these characters.
Dr Rad 38:13 Oh, just you wait. This is quite the
Dr G 38:17 conundrum. But I do have laws to luminess does last does live into the next year. Just just in case that might affect your narrative. Yeah.
Dr Rad 38:27 Okay. All right. Back to Livia, shall we? Alright, sir. We have this whole thing, where we got the military tribunals with consular power, okay, they’re in their very late scene change, where Longo concerned about what is or isn’t happening within Rome itself, the messy power dynamics between the patricians and the Whovians etc. Instead, we are switching to the Roman colony of Ferdinand
Dr G 39:00 ah for DNA now
Dr Rad 39:03 for DNA is somewhat close to the city of a and I think we have mentioned both of them quite a bit in previous episodes where we’ve been talking about conflict with the Etruscans and that sort of thing. Yeah,
Dr G 39:15 so v is the Etruscan city just to the north of Rome and Medina is kind of just a bit to the eastern South. It’s, they’re co located as it
Dr Rad 39:23 were, yes, indeed. Yes. Now, what basically happens is this Roman colony of Medina revolts and transfers its allegiance to Oh, yes. Which is ruled by one last zactly and that’s where he comes into my account. Okay. So this is an interesting development affected they have it’s not gonna go well, I’ll tell you that anyway. But this was made even worse by this particular situation. Okay, which is, the Romans sent some ambassadors to ask. Why the switch? True for DD? Yes. Do
Dr G 40:05 you guys your hours?
Dr Rad 40:07 Yes. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but as your routes are either you’re either like Alvin a Latin or something. But yeah, I try skin and you were loyal to us. So why are you switching brands? Maybe ask why you chosen to switch to a different insurance policy?
Dr G 40:26 Would you like to consider your answer? Exactly.
Dr Rad 40:29 Now these ambassadors
Dr G 40:31 are put to death. By the for dinos. Yeah.
Dr Rad 40:35 Oh, this is their
Dr G 40:36 response. Wow. Yeah. They’re in with the Etruscans. Yeah,
Dr Rad 40:40 exactly. And this is where I get the names as well. So we’ve got as you said, guys, full sinners. Clear. Well, yes, tell us spurious. anteus and lascivious Ruscus. Yeah, that’s another name. I can get on board. Loose skiis Ruskies
Unknown Speaker 40:56 mu rock.
Dr Rad 40:59 Now, some people try and say that this was a poor choice of the Etruscan King, who was now obviously in charge of affairs, because, you know,
Dr G 41:10 obviously he’s behind it. Well, yeah, you would presume courage this sort of behaviour?
Dr Rad 41:14 Exactly. Yeah. So keen to lameness. What’s the deal? Apparently, it’s a bit of a Henry the second and Thomas Beckett situation, a couple live in 70 and English history. So there is a story that Henry the second said something like you know, who’s gonna read me with this troublesome priest, and this was overheard by some knights who then went and killed Thomas Beckett right? After? Yeah, not good. Most famously, parody blackout, which I’m not gonna lie is where I’m getting most of my information from. I didn’t really bother to look it up. I just knew the story. Excellent research. But This situation reminds me a little bit of that, because apparently, it might have been a mistake, because last alumnus was playing with dice. And he said something whilst he was playing with his dice, which was overheard by so people from fee today, who thought he was giving some sort of order about killing them. Oh, that’s awkward. Yeah. So he might have just been playing Monopoly. Oh, yeah. Okay, like, I
Dr G 42:19 hate Romans. Something
Unknown Speaker 42:21 like that. Yeah, exactly. So I can’t afford to buy the capital. Yeah, something where he
Dr Rad 42:26 said something while he was playing a game or, or he was unclear about maybe, you know, where he was directing his speech. Maybe he was playing whilst he was talking to some people from feeding. And he was actually talking about the game, but they thought he was talking to them. Livi doesn’t by excuse the king.
Dr G 42:47 It’s a cover story. Yeah, very best. This guy is aiming at revolt across the board. He wants war with Rome.
Dr Rad 42:54 Well, and this is the other thing, and this would be very clever if it was true. And part of me thinks it is actually just that correct to be true. Apparently, levy thinks that he was maybe deliberately bit unclear or something in the way that he gave these orders. Because he wanted the people or feed me to be complicit. He didn’t want it to just be something that over your trust students, did. You want it to be something where this people are feeding? They were committed? Yeah. Killed Roman envoys. Varian? Yeah, they’re all. There’s no going back. And so that might be why he deliberately orchestrated this situation. I wonder
Dr G 43:36 if this is part of the broader issues that are going on at the moment? Because it’s not like the feminine is instantly over? No, no. And so I imagine there’s quite a lot of desperation, a lot of regions. And maybe for DNA has decided to switch so they can source a grain supply for themselves
Dr Rad 43:54 well of geography is not my strong point. But all these places are fairly close to each other if we consider how big room is going to become. But the need is quite close today. It is. Yeah, exactly. So it wouldn’t be crazy. It’s not like they’re throwing going, you know what? We’re gonna throw in a lot with China. We just heard about it. Thinking Yeah,
Dr G 44:13 no, they’re throwing it in with a really close neighbour. And potentially Rome has had its own problems for quite some time it would appear Yeah, at least from the histories that we’ve been looking at. And so maybe they need some stuff that they just can’t get any other way. And it makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. And those ambassadors well, they just have to go.
Dr Rad 44:33 Well, and this is the thing, because they died nobly in the line of duty. They also get statues at the public expense.
Dr G 44:42 But there’s a lot of statues going on now.
Dr Rad 44:44 They really are. Remember,
Dr G 44:46 I don’t think this is this doesn’t seem the right time for a lot of statues. If
Dr Rad 44:50 I was naming this like a Friends episode, I would call this the one with five statues. I have a lot of statues. Yeah, absolutely. So they get the statues erected. on the roster. Now, this place is the speaker’s platform in the form, but apparently wouldn’t actually be officially called the roster until, like 100 years from now. So I’m guessing that that’s just a description so that people have his own time would roughly know where the statues were located. The speaker zone. Yeah. And that’s probably why we actually have such a great collection of their names, because their names probably would have been obviously inscribed on statues.
Dr G 45:32 I see, huh? Yeah.
Dr Rad 45:35 So that is really where 438 wraps up for me with a situation where clearly the Romans are like, Well, I tell you what, it’s Whoa, whoa, interesting.
Dr G 45:47 Oh, it’s a cliffhanger. Yeah. What will happen next? Will Rome Avengers murdered Ambassador wars?
Dr Rad 45:54 I think they will. Yes, that this is basically where fourth idiot wraps up with, with Romans being like, well, it’s very clearly war, because, you know, there’s not really any other way to take the murder of your ambassadors. No,
Dr G 46:06 no, thanks a lot for Dina.
I mean, and really also, I mean, it would really be the equivalent of murdering a customer service person who asked why you’re switching electricity. I mean, you know, they were just asking about where they didn’t, they didn’t wear it. They didn’t they just faded wherever to be like, hey, what’s the deal? Hey, buddy, where’s the beef? What are you doing? Yeah.
Are we not providing adequate electricity supply?
Dr Rad 46:32 Can you please provide us with specific feedback? So the Bremen experienced
Dr G 46:37 on a scale of one to 10? How would you rate us and Mrs.
Dr Rad 46:41 And can you please explain why. Anyway, so yeah. All right. Let’s go. I’m gonna wrap it. Oh, look, I
Dr G 46:47 think that’s probably a good place for us to wrap up the episode as well.
Dr Rad 46:51 All right, that means after G that it is time for
Dr G 46:53 the partial pick. It is time for the partial pick, which means there are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs for the Romans in five different categories. Let’s see how they do this year.
Dr Rad 47:14 All right. So what is that first category? Dr. G, military clout? Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess there is kind of some action but doesn’t go well, for the Romans.
Dr G 47:23 I mean, does having military tribunes instead of consoles automatically give you cloud militarily wise? I try. I’m afraid. Diplomacy. Let the Romans really try. Some ambassadors, do we?
Dr Rad 47:40 I think we could we can give them points for trying to be ready, even if it wasn’t received very diplomatically?
Dr G 47:46 I think so. Yeah. That’s a nice gesture. They didn’t just turn up with an army. They were like, quick. Send the ambassador’s? Yeah.
Dr Rad 47:52 Okay. So maybe we give them what? Five? Yeah. Okay. Five. We don’t really know how threatening the ambassadors were being. I mean, did they ask for? Were they being kind
Dr G 48:02 of douchey? I don’t want to I don’t want to victim blame.
Dr Rad 48:05 I don’t want to either, but I mean, is the Romans they might have been being a bit douchey. about it.
Dr G 48:09 That’s true. Yeah. Todd to know. All right. So five, expansion?
Dr Rad 48:14 Definitely not. They’ve lost territory. Me minus points.
Dr G 48:19 I think that’s a minus one right there, buddy. No,
Dr Rad 48:23 we don’t have for that. All right. For it is.
Dr G 48:27 We’re tools.
Dr Rad 48:28 Okay. Hmm. Not really, I mean, dying in the line of duty. I mean, it gets you a statue. But
Dr G 48:37 look, I think we can say that as far as the patricians are concerned. Sure. Manoukian has, yes. He’s deserved that statue as far as their Oh, we might disagree with that. But he’s been given a statue? Well, it’s
Dr Rad 48:51 like when we first introduced him, he basically said, look, he wasn’t a great prefect of the grain. But he was great. The Liberty, huh. So clearly, his reputation is one of preserving something that the Romans value very highly or at least sit in rooms, because I think it’s liberty for some Ooh.
Dr G 49:12 All right. So I think there has to be a weird to a score here. Yeah. So is there anything greater than receiving a statute maybe getting a wreath of some kind, but getting a statute is pretty up there. So I feel like it has to be probably about a six or a seven.
Dr Rad 49:27 Okay. Yeah, I’ll give it a six. Just go. Don’t like that there enough. Yeah.
Dr G 49:33 And what is it like to be a citizen? At this time citizens score? Is it a good time to be a citizen in Rome? I mean, you’ve got some more grain now. So that’s always up from before. But
Dr Rad 49:45 yeah, look, it does seem like the famine would be must be easy. I mean, even with murdered ambassadors. I don’t know that the Romans could afford to commit to a war if the famine was really at its lowest point. It might, it might not have all wrapped up, but I think that I’d need to be fairly certain that you know things at home are going to be fairly stable, huh? Yeah. So okay, yes. Got some rain. And that’s what Munich is currently did right? Killed my alias and then took all the glory by distributing,
Dr G 50:14 distributing the grain. Huh? Yeah. So there’s that aspect of it. But then on the other hand, they also have to deal with the fact that the tribune of the plebs has now been infiltrated by a patrician. Yes, who’s been turned into a plebeian. But everybody knows what that means. Yes, this is true. And this was I mean, I feel like it’s not good not.
Dr Rad 50:35 Because we also have all patricians being military tribunes with consular power. Very, very, very prestigious people too. And then you’ve got that Cincinnatus connection, because even if he wasn’t the dictator for 39, now his douchebag sign is there too. Yeah,
Dr G 50:53 I made a comeback because I feel
Dr Rad 50:54 like I can really only give it a one doji just because you’re not starving to death.
Dr G 50:58 All right. I was gonna say to at most so I’m happy. Well,
Dr Rad 51:02 I mean, let’s face it. Now. We’ve also got a war coming through, which means who’s going to be serving starting to get co opted by friends? Yeah. So if you add that up as well, yeah, I think definitely a one. All right. All right. So that means that because we have introduced for the first time minus a minus, that the Romans end up on a livin Golden Eagles probably could have been 12. But we’re feeling extra mean today.
Dr G 51:31 Wow room next time next time, a chance for greater glory, perhaps indeed. A pleasure speaking to you, as always,
Dr Rad 51:38 as always RTG.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. If you are interested to hear more about the probably mythical hero that we mentioned earlier, Gaius mucus more commonly known as Scaevola. Then please check out episode 47 For Senna, Scola, and CO Elia. There are definitely some interesting parallels between what we’ve been talking about for the past couple of episodes and his story. Scola was a Roman Noble who was sent to assassinate an enemy of the trust in King last poor centre, who was besieging room in alliance with Talquin dynasty who just been kicked off the throne. Skyfall didn’t quite manage to pull off the assassination attempt it was captured. But to show he didn’t care about torture, he punched his right hand, not his left hand. As I said earlier into the flames and present it was apparently so impressed by his bravery that he let him go. And forevermore, he would be known as the man with the left hand, and that explained his family name was stable. Well, interestingly, there is no one from that family who has the name guys until much later around the time that livie and Dionysius were writing.
In the meantime, however, we’d like to give a big thank you to all our Patreon supporters. And this episode, we’d like to give a special shout out to Benjamin Jade, Aaron and Ryan, who all joined a year ago and Gustin August 2021. YouTube can support our show and help us to produce more excellent content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. And now you also get to see us behind the scenes during some of our recording sessions. However, we know that a monthly donation does not work for every budget, and there are other ways that you can support the show. We now have a coffee account so you can buy us a coffee. And of course you can spread the word by buying and wearing some of our merchandise. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Assassination of Spurius Maelius
Jul 14, 2022
Famine Strikes
After a peaceful year in 441 BCE, the Romans are in for nasty shock over the course of 440 and 439 BCE. It all begins with a crippling famine, and there seems to have been signs of problems ahead before the food shortage really set in. In Pliny the Elder, there is a reference to an aedile of the plebs (Marcus Marcius) selling grain to the poor at a very low price.
Episode 127 – The Assassination of Spurius Maelius
There are some startling differences in our source material this episode. What we can agree on is that the crisis was so severe, Lucius Minucius was appointed as Prefect of the Grain, aka The Nacho King of Rome. His job was to track down some corn and get it the Romans ASAP.
Image of a random assortment of grains courtesy of www.themindfulword.org
Emergency Relief
Unfortunately, Minucius seems to have been incompetent and the famine dragged on. To try and help out his fellow Romans, a wealthy equestrian named Spurius Maelius made use of his extensive connections to secure the needed grain. He succeeds where Minucius had failed, and even worse, he distributes the corn for FREE to the populace. Nothing makes you so popular as distributing free food, especially if it’s amid a famine.
There’s Only So Much Room at the Top
Maelius’ actions highlight the enormous power that the aristocrats of Rome still wielded thanks to their wealth and the practice of patronage. However, Maelius does not seem to have been one of the ‘club’. He does not seem to have been one of the patricians. Exactly what impact this had is difficult to determine.
Did his popularity go to his head and lead to schemes of restoring the monarchy?
Was Cincinnatus dusted off and brought out of retirement to deal with this threat?
Did the people seize control and replace Minucius with Maelius?
Was there a senatorial conspiracy to kill those who spoke out against the government… including Maelius?
Are we dealing with a state-sanctioned assassination? Or is this an elaborate cover-up? (Hello, JFK conspirators? We’ve got another one to add to the list….)
We will leave that to you to decide. All we can say for certain is that this episode is full of intrigue. Never has Ancient Rome seemed more like a gangster film. Get ready for the assassination of Spurius Maelius!
Things to Look Out For
The young patricians
Roman units of measurement
The return of the butcher’s stand in the Forum
Cincinnatus possibly pulling a Lethal Weapon
When Dr Rad accidentally says that Minucius was rescued by Coriolanus instead of Cincinnatus back in 458 BCE
A Master of the Horse with a name that we just can’t leave alone!
Our Players 440 BCE
Consuls
Proculus Geganius – f. – n. Macerinus (Pat.)
T. Menenius Agripp. F. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.) – Cos. 452
OR
L. Menenius T. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.)
Aedile of the Plebs
M. Marcius
Praefectus Annonae
L. Minucius (Esquilinus Augurinus) (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 458
Wealthy Equestrian – Giddyup!
Spurius Maelius
Our Players 439 BCE
Consuls
Agrippa Menenius T. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.)
T. Quinctius L.f. L.n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) – Cos. 471, 468, 465, 446, 443.
Dictator
L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 460
Master of the Horse
C. Servilius – f. – n. Ahala (Pat.)
Praefectus Annonae
L. Minucius (Esquilinus Augurinus) (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 458
Wealthy Equestrian
Spurius Maelius
Our Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 12.36; Cicero, Cato Maior De Senectute, 16.56; Cicero, Mil. 3.8; Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 12.1-4; Valerius Maximus, 5.3.2g.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.12-15.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Wilson, M. 2021. Dictator: The Evolution of the Roman Dictatorship (University of Michigan Press).
Sound Credits
Thanks to BBC Sounds, Orange Free Sounds and Fesliyan Studios for sound effects, and the very talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Automated Transcript
Provided by Otter AI
P H
0:16
Welcome to the Partial Historians, we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr Rad
1:00
Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historias. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad, and I am Dr. G. And we are super excited to be here today because we’re about to talk about 440 BCE. The speed of our
Dr G
1:20
chain, getting getting from the foundations, and we’re about what 300 Something use it. We’re doing pretty good. I think so I mean, lightning was like 300 years have passed. It does not look incredible. Thank you. Thank you.
Dr Rad
1:34
So in the course of the history of Rome, Dr. G, let’s do a brief recap of where we were up to last episode. Oh, yes. Yeah. 441 was actually quite a.
Dr G
1:46
Yeah, look, I don’t remember much about it. There was all day I was involved. And we had just cleaned up the whole mess. And it was a bit of a mess there. Yeah. And then I feel like I ran out of sources. No, that’s not to say he really wasn’t
Dr Rad
2:01
much to say about 441. It was
Dr G
2:04
fairly, it was a pretty minimal. Yeah,
Dr Rad
2:07
yeah. Exactly. After the drama that happened with the border dispute, no doubt. And that whole weird civil war that apparently broke out there over a hot Peruvian girl. So yes, it was good to have some peace and quiet. You know, your life can’t be keeping up with the Kardashians. 24/7
DG Dr G
2:25
It can’t sometimes you got to go home. Yeah. So that’s really all
DR Dr Rad
2:29
I have to say about 441. So I think it’s time to pause as we transition into 440 BC.
DG Dr G
2:44
Morning, Yep, see
DR Dr Rad
2:45
ya. Oh, boy.
DG Dr G
2:47
Do I have some news for you? We’ve got consoles this year?
DR Dr Rad
2:50
Yes. Because you might recall that it has been mooted that maybe we don’t have consoles. And that maybe we have military Tribune’s with consular authority. Because then poor beings can technically hold the office without dirtying up too much. Technically. Yeah, we also, we also haven’t seen much action from that. From that side of things. It’s mostly been consoles.
DG Dr G
3:15
That just that we’re getting that’s coming through from the source material is this is a time of uncertainty. There’s a volatility in the politics. Yeah. So what how that’s exactly playing out. We’re not really sure. And for me, in particular, reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus is a bit of an issue because this is precisely the point where he starts to go missing. And I’ve only got some fragments to deal with. makes me very sad. But we do have two consoles. The first of which I’ll test these names against you. We’ve got propolis giganteum. Sort of we don’t know who grandson of we don’t know who mas arenas check a patrician and Titus mineus Agrippa Oh, no. TinyMCE mineus Son of a grip ah. Grandson of a grip up Alanna Tess. Or might be Lucia Smith. Aeneas,
DR Dr Rad
4:06
we’re not sure about is that leave you guys with which means it must be the correct. Yeah, yes. Apart from that, Ted, I
DG Dr G
4:14
agree with you. And I also have a record of somebody called the Adel of the plebs. So this role doesn’t come up very often, or at least it’s not spoken about very often in this early period.
DR Dr Rad
4:25
Well, that’s because we’re not entirely sure it does exist at this point.
DG Dr G
4:30
But Be on the lookout for somebody called many years Martius
DR Dr Rad
4:34
Yes, I also have that name. And let me tell you that you’d have to do a 441 was almost boringly peaceful. 440 is going to turn all that around drama
DG Dr G
4:45
bring on the drama I will bring on we also have a price vectors unknown a.
DR Dr Rad
4:51
Oh, okay. Apparently.
DG Dr G
4:54
I don’t know. This is what Bratton tells me. And this might go on for a couple of years. Hold that thought. Lucia. Manoukian Esquel minus
DR Dr Rad
5:04
or greenness. Now that’s an AMA. Do you recall?
DG Dr G
5:06
He used to be the console? Suffolk or 458?
DR Dr Rad
5:11
Which is where I remember? Yeah, yes. Yeah. That
DG Dr G
5:13
year stands out. Yeah, like a shining diamond.
DR Dr Rad
5:18
Absolutely. All right. So I can tell you right now that you have to be prepared for a year of many people dying. Oh, not so danger, sedition, famine, and the threat of a king. Oh, yeah.
DG Dr G
5:38
I think you and I are talking about different years
DR Dr Rad
5:40
I? Yeah, basically, the only bad thing that didn’t happen in this year, according to levy was a foreign war.
DG Dr G
5:49
Wow. Okay. So as far as I can tell from the sort of the fragmentary sources that I’ve read, yeah, the events are 440. And the events of 439 are probably going to mesh together in a perhaps a, a, a way that we can’t disentangle
DR Dr Rad
6:05
makes your tongue annalistic sauce here.
DG Dr G
6:10
And I is missing and everything that I know about the things you’re seeing right now come in the next year. Now,
DR Dr Rad
6:15
I think we’ve spoken before about the fact that it seems as though our sources often like to characterise yours in certain ways, which means that sometimes they might be, you know, tidying things up a bit, because they’re like, wouldn’t be just neater, if everything happened in 440, rather than, you know, trickling into January and February of the next year.
DG Dr G
6:36
And we’ve also got that issue with like, how do we date things precisely anyway, like, we know that the Fasty records that these analysts historians are going to much later, are fragmentary themselves? At least they are for us. Yeah. I think that they might have been for them as well, because we do get these discrepancies that have emerged along the way.
DR Dr Rad
6:54
Yeah. So are you prepared to delve into this year with me?
DG Dr G
6:57
I’m ready. I’m really keen to hear what you’ve got to tell me. Okay.
DR Dr Rad
7:00
So if a foreign war had been added to the disasters that happened in this year LIVVIE thinks that it would have been a complete disaster for the Romans, even if the gods had been on their sides. That’s telling you something, even if the gods are rooting for you and on your side, and yet somehow you still fail. Must be pretty bad.
DG Dr G
7:23
But that’s but he says, That’s not what happened.
DR Dr Rad
7:25
No, it isn’t. I’m just trying to paint a picture of how terrible it is. Now, it all begins with a hearable family, and can’t really be 100% Sure, why the feminine came about in the first place? There are a couple of theories there. First of all, weather climate, you know, those things need to be taken care of people otherwise, food shortages do arise. You could also
DG Dr G
7:52
have a problematic thing that happens with the crop, some sort of disease moves through it. These things are easier to manage in the modern world with our modern technology. Yeah, not easy to manage in the ancient world. If a devastating sort of plague rips through the crop, right before harvest, you got bad times ahead.
DR Dr Rad
8:09
You do but I wish you wouldn’t embellish living this way.
DG Dr G
8:14
Just speaking about reasonable hypotheses about the
DR Dr Rad
8:16
season it’s the season
DG Dr G
8:20
it’s the gods I tell you
DR Dr Rad
8:22
Yeah, any here so could just be a weather thing that just didn’t help the crops grow and you know, abundance was needed. However, it could also be that people were neglecting their farming duties.
DG Dr G
8:36
Oh, yeah. Okay, this is a patrician read put it back onto the plebeians. Yeah, not doing their job properly
DR Dr Rad
8:43
been hanging out and assemblies yet and political city life far too attractive. Not enough time on founder today.
DG Dr G
8:51
I thought I’d brush off my socks and become a military tribute with clothes jeweller power,
DR Dr Rad
8:57
dear appreciate. I have been now for several weeks in the capital of our great nation. And I cannot put into words how truly magnificent really
DG Dr G
9:09
is I’ve decided to go into politics.
DR Dr Rad
9:13
Yes, sir. So of course the patricians are indeed upset with this situation because it’s plebeian laziness. That has brought this all around. However, the plans aren’t just going to take this kind of criticism lying down. The tribune of the plebs comes in and accuses the consoles of dishonesty and carelessness. Yeah, so counter accusation. Once again, you guys have been sleeping on the top job. Either way, I think it’s safe to say that both groups are pointing the finger at the other as to why this whole situation nobody
DG Dr G
9:49
is harvesting the grain. Once again, crops are being ignored while people argue.
DR Dr Rad
9:56
But the tribune of the plebs did eventually manage to get one A Lucia Manoukian is appointed as prefect of the corn supply and the Senate and against this because, hey, everybody’s going to eat.
DG Dr G
10:12
I think it’s a sign of the times that something has gone terribly wrong that they need a prefect, just to look after the grain supply. There’s issues here and they’re like, We need a tailored solution. And we need somebody in charge of coming up with that solution.
DR Dr Rad
10:25
Yeah, so I hereby de Lucia smooth kiss the nacho King. Now, it turns out, he actually wasn’t fantastic at his job.
DG Dr G
10:37
I was gonna say he does practically nothing.
DR Dr Rad
10:39
Well, okay, in terms of getting sued. Sure. But he does contribute something else, which is more important. Dr. Jain? He safeguards liberty. Yeah, I’m gonna get to that in a sec. Now, just a little note here, way back in the early republic, and around sort of 494 89 This guy’s relatives were also consult when there was a famine.
DG Dr G
11:06
Oh, that’s an unfortunate family tradition.
DR Dr Rad
11:10
Yeah. So I’m just going to throw it out there that there is actually a bit of a family connection here. Wow. Yeah.
DG Dr G
11:16
That was great. Well, no, I think they actually solved the family. Yeah, I
DR Dr Rad
11:20
think they actually did a reasonable job.
DG Dr G
11:22
And this might explain why they’ve chosen Manoukian, then, potentially, and
DR Dr Rad
11:25
he’s also had, you know, he’s relatives have been fairly well known. You know, they’ve established themselves I mean, not always in great ways. One of them had to be bailed out by Coriolanus. But oops, yeah. Anyway, doesn’t matter. Seven of us, of course, does the logical thing, and that he starts sending out bad signals, you know, help them come to our aid shapes,
DG Dr G
11:45
like sheaves of wheat. That’s right. Series ate us.
DR Dr Rad
11:50
across land, and across the seas. He asks for aid. He managed to get a little bit of corn from a Tria, but a little bit isn’t going to solve a crisis on this scale.
DG Dr G
12:02
Aster is when we talk about corn. We’re not talking about maize at this point in time. No, we’re talking about all sorts of ancient grains, and they’re all sort of classified under this idea of corn in the Roman mind. Yeah,
DR Dr Rad
12:13
no joking. It’s very misleading. I apologise, but I just like it. Anyway, so I’m gonna do case decides, well, this isn’t working. So I’m going to take a number of other steps. First of all, I’m going to force all Romans to declare what Roman Roman meant to declare how much core and that they had.
DG Dr G
12:32
Tell me how much grain you got in there, buddy. What are you shaking, shaking?
DR Dr Rad
12:38
It sounds like there’s more grain within that storage over there. Oh, really? Your spell check is? I think so.
DG Dr G
12:43
Don’t look at the barrel.
DR Dr Rad
12:46
And they had to sell whatever they had in storage. That was over a month supply. So they were able to keep a month of what they had, but everything else
DG Dr G
12:54
had sold. Okay, so we’re into the rationing phase. Yeah, I mean, what I call supply.
DR Dr Rad
13:00
I don’t know if I mentioned that. It’s getting worse. Now, this part I don’t like so much, but probably predictable. He also ordered that a portion of corn be taken from slave so part of their daily ration is taken away, right. Yeah, he also started charging dealers, this grain dealers, yes, areas.
DG Dr G
13:24
Buddy, what do you what do you want? What do you want? I got some I got some. Well,
DR Dr Rad
13:27
the thing is it. It seems that people might obviously have been trying to benefit from this whole situation. Can you imagine? Can you imagine
DG Dr G
13:38
Romans? Yeah, trying to outdo other Romans, not even to say Romans, I
DR Dr Rad
13:41
mean, who knows who these dealers are? But yeah, it seems like people were potentially I suppose, presbytery might be the right word for it sounds like people are really angry and about this whole situation. So that’s a good thing. However, none of these things really help with the incredible crisis. That is the famine, like obviously, you know, small dent, but it’s not really doing what needs to be done here. So it makes some claims so scared about what lies ahead in the future that apparently some literally throwing themselves into the timeout and committing suicide. Wow. Yeah. It’s a bad family. Yeah.
DG Dr G
14:21
It’s just like, because my source material is so different from yours at this point that I’m like, This is not even something I’ve encountered yet. I’m hearing this for the first time where that is tragic.
DR Dr Rad
14:30
There you go. So then steps into the void and equestrian that now, I should say right now that yeah, this horse. This is early room. So this isn’t the kind of later version room equestrian where you qualify with like a certain amount of money as being part of the equestrian class. This is when you actually do probably have a horse. Yeah, you’re able
DG Dr G
14:56
to equip as a cavalryman yes in times of war. Yeah, exactly. You’re quite substantially wealthy.
DR Dr Rad
15:02
Sure. But yeah, it’s not like it’s not like the Augustan version of an equestrian. Yeah, except just mentioning that, and this guy’s name is spurious. Malleus. Now he is a wealthy man, as highlighted, okay,
DG Dr G
15:14
I’m gonna have to jump into it, because you’re definitely straying into what is 439 for me.
DR Dr Rad
15:23
But hear me out, okay, because Melee has decided that he’s going to use his money to do something useful. However, Lily highlights here, that they set a terrible precedent. And that this guy had awful motives for doing Googling, again, Shocking, I know that a reverend would be out for himself. So Malea decides to use his personal fortune to purchase corn from the experience. And he’s able to do this because he has apparently quite an extensive network of friends and clients. So whilst this is obviously different to what we saw, with Fabians, this is another one of those incidents that really highlights for us how much there is this network of patronage that works throughout this society? And it means that you do actually have private families that have enough wealth sometimes to step in, and do things for the state on this scale?
DG Dr G
16:25
Yeah. And I think this tells you, I mean, this is the scenes of Aristotle, like aristocracy in its most essential form. Yeah. And it’s like, and you can see it in this early period of Rome. And we know that these people are all connected. And so the Romans do try to define themselves as different and separate, and we’re like, we’re special people. But they’re definitely taking in from the Latins. They’re definitely taking in from the Etruscans. All of those surrounding peoples or peoples that they’re connected with. They’re either related to them, or they’re good for business ties. And this kind of thing. Yeah. really hits home when it’s a famine. Yeah, absolutely. And this one guy is like, well, I’ve got enough money to do what the state cannot do. Yeah. Which is to buy up a grain supply
DR Dr Rad
17:08
and the connections and the connections. Of course, this may have you know, hi made the problem worse, because he’s buying up the supply. However, what he does, then is that he hands it out for free. Now, I am getting close to 439. So we’ll hold it right there, missy. This, of course, makes him insanely popular with
DG Dr G
17:32
the I can only imagine because they’re starving. Yeah. So they’re literally following
DR Dr Rad
17:37
him around like puppies and being like, hey, my alias taught me another bit of that con, and I’ll show you good time. I’d love to buy your bread. Bake it in my oven. Ooh, this is getting gross. So this makes him feel very important. And he starts to Dream a Little Dream. Dr. G. Oh, yeah. Now as someone who’s an equestrian, as in wealthy enough to have a horse at all,
DG Dr G
18:07
as well as to buy the grain. Yeah,
DR Dr Rad
18:08
that’s one of the good, but anything for the consulship.
DG Dr G
18:12
Yes. And equestrian is not technically, of the Patricia class, as far as anybody. So this might be a retro ejection as well. If this is the other thing. We’re not really sure what makes a new question in the question in this early period. And it seems like anybody’s best guess would be that there is a sort of blurring between equestrians and patricians because patricians are this sort of elite class anyway. And it would make sense that they were also the wealthy enough to buy and look after their own horses. Yeah. So it makes sense that there’s some sort of connection there. And yet, by the time we get to our riders like Louis and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, in the first century BCE, there’s a real distinction. And the questions are not part of that upper echelon of the elite.
DR Dr Rad
18:57
Yeah, so this is this might be right your direction. Yeah, it could be. But it could also be that he actually isn’t a patrician me a little upstart. Crash, but of course, why stop at console? Why not aim to be king of Arroyo? Grande can buy you anything.
DG Dr G
19:21
Sir. He starts to man. He doesn’t know his history.
DR Dr Rad
19:24
He’s that’s the plan. He sounds to plan. He thinks you know what? I could do this. I could pull this off. It is turned off to GE for an evil blend. However, when the elections for the consulship for the next year rolled around, his plan isn’t quite ready yet. Yeah, so he’s not ready to launch into action right at that opportune moment. And the people that he is kind of singled out as being necessary to his plan or, you know, potentially useful and not necessarily interested in him?
DG Dr G
20:04
Oh, wow, who didn’t? Who knew?
DR Dr Rad
20:06
And that is the end of 440. To me, it’s a cliffhanger.
DG Dr G
20:10
Wow. Okay. Oh, because like 440 is a real dud for my source material. First of all dinosaurs are Harlequin. So this is just missing nothing. And we have, I had to end up going to Pliny’s natural history book 18 sections three to four, right? To have a look into what’s going on with this man. Yes, Mark. Yes, who hasn’t featured at all in your story, really. So because he comes up in this year for me, but then drops off the radar for next year, gone by 439. But apparently, he’s this eight out of the plebs. And he’s most famous for what is known as the one that modius grain distribution. So we don’t have a sense, or at least not in the source material, I was able to insult we don’t have a sense that there is a famine yet. But there’s definitely some sort of issue with the grain supply because he’s selling grain at bargain basement prices as the a doll. And this one modius is considered to be like the cheapest price you could possibly sell it for really any cheaper. And it looks like you might as well just be giving it away for free.
DG Dr G
21:22
But so we’ve got this little section in plenty, where he’s talking about the size of land. So I think this is just a nice sort of discusses anyway, so I’m going to do it show you talks about what is known as u Gurram. So you’re like, what’s a U Gurram. It’s a size is the size of a piece of land, you’re like, Well, how would we measure? A you girl? Yeah, great question. First of all, you have to yoke your oxen, step one, yes. Then you have to in one day, see as much as you can plough. So with that oxen, you can usually go up to a certain point until the middle of the day. Yeah. And then you turn them around. And next to it, you do another set down for the rest of the day. Gotcha. Yeah. And that double stretch, you’re doing oxen, laps, oxen, laps, essentially, that whatever you can do in one day with the oxygen and usually you can’t make the oxygen speed up. So it’s considered to be relatively useful is the you gurgle that you’ll get granted as your piece of land for them growing your brain, right? So you can do that. And everybody in the population is welcome. Where possible, that’s kind of like the minimum you give people to be able to self sustain. Right? Okay, so everyone’s on the lookout for the you Gergo for your burger.
DR Dr Rad
22:31
I really don’t like a word.
DG Dr G
22:34
But this has, you know, this connection to agriculture and all of these sorts of other things and thinking about them clearly gets into like the names that come out of agriculture that are connected to names of families. So kicker Row being the famous the chickpea, here, but there there are others as well, the Junie i, so the journey I receive also the name of boo, bilious ah which comes from breeding oxen and being skilled at it, apparently, okay, yeah. So there’s all these kind of like little details that plenty goes into plenty is a great source for like, these kinds of things. We like what his daily life really like, let’s find out. And then he talks about this cheap grain situation where it’s really unusual. And many as Marcus gets a mention there, okay. And then my only other source for 40 is our old friend Diodorus, Siculus.
DR Dr Rad
23:27
Mr. Reliable.
DG Dr G
23:29
He’s having a great time. He gets the names of the consoles, right in this instance. So this is book 12, section 36. Gets the names of the consoles. Right. And then you also talks about that during this year, Spartacus, the king of the Bosphorus, dine after a rain of seven years. I like the name. I thought you might. So I did a little bit more thinking about that. I was like, Oh, we’ve got a really early Spartacus figure. Well, it is
DR Dr Rad
23:56
it is actually a regal name in some cultures. Yeah.
DG Dr G
23:58
And he this Spartacus is thought to be a tyrant actually, who overthrows the ruling dynastic line he was about and about before the other one came along the Bosphorus, but he starts what is known as the Sparta Qin Dynasty, which lasts for quite a few generations.
DR Dr Rad
24:16
Yes, yeah. There have definitely been people who have theorised that Spartacus, the famous gladiator may have had some connection to royalty, you know, some sort of royal line or it could just be that the name was famous. He wasn’t actually from Thrace at all. And they just throw it at him because they’re trying to craft him into a Thracian crowd pleaser.
DG Dr G
24:34
Yeah, and this is the thing because the speculation in the source is that Spartacus was a Thracian, this Bosphorus King. Yeah, but there’s also further scholarship seems to suggest that we might be talking about somebody who’s great who ski Theon. So yeah, which is not that far away from Thrace geographically
DR Dr Rad
24:54
now isn’t. isn’t like if you think about you’ve got mainland Greece there and as you move around, you’ve got Thrace up here. Yeah, and Graco ski theory is kind of wedged in the wait, is this GIF? Yeah, like one of the places where supposedly it’s kind of inspiration for the Amazons mind. Yeah.
DG Dr G
25:09
It’s like this mythical sort of out there sort of thing. Yeah. But it’s connected to Greece on some level. Yeah. So that’s 440 BCE.
DR Dr Rad
25:21
All right, so moving into 439. Dr. G. Oh, yeah, of course, have some new consoles, although not as new as you might imagine, because one of them is in my account. Titus Quintus. Capital, Linus, who is console for the sixth
DG Dr G
25:36
time. Oh, yeah. He was constantly in 471 468 465-440-6443. And now 430. Yeah, very popular, man. You’re getting a bit grey though.
DR Dr Rad
25:50
With everybody? Yes. I think he definitely is. I mean, when we think about his peak, that was like 20 years ago, now, you know, back and forth six year. Yeah, I think he is probably moving on a little bit, but he is experienced as a new denying that. Yeah. And we
DG Dr G
26:07
also have a gripper. Yep. Son of Titus runs on of a gripper. lanatus. So appears to be a relation to direct relation to the previous tightest moneyness of gripper. So he’s son potentially.
DR Dr Rad
26:23
And the man nei or his brother, yeah, them in any I go way back to the early republic, lest we forget the most famous one NES who gave that whole story about how the beans had to come back after the first secession because otherwise, you know, the state as a body couldn’t function. Oh, yeah. That was in other plants,
DG Dr G
26:45
the stomach and that one
DR Dr Rad
26:49
was stomach. Pleasure many things. But I think that the patricians were the ones that were like feed me. But you really need that to us to spread the nutrients to the arms, the legs. Yeah. Anyway, that was him.
DG Dr G
27:03
So just to give us a heads up on where we’re at with spurious mailers. Yes. So this is the year according to my source material, where he starts to come into his prominence. And apparently what has happened to him is that his father has died. And he’s come into the inheritance and he’s looking around at what to do with it. And you can see that Rome is in a state of Roma in relation to this famine, and he’s like, Okay, it’s time for me to step up to the plate. So he does go and get a shipment of grain from a TURia. Right, but it’s not the only shipment that he buys. Okay? So he actually ends up buying three shipments in so he heads down to Naples when what Naples is your like, Naples legal doesn’t exist? Well,
2 Speaker 2
27:53
no, I just mean in the sense of so not that far away, how they are not really good green.
DG Dr G
27:59
That I don’t know, this makes me think that the prefect of the grain supply is an absolute rubbish candidate for the job, because there’s literally source no grain, according to our source material. And yet, this guy, spurious Melee is able to get up and go out. And he manages to bring in three separate supplies. He brings in some from Sicily. He goes out to Kumi. And my seen him so down in the Bay of Naples brings back stuff from there and from materia so he’s gone north, and he’s gone south, he’s gone a little bit south again. And he’s actually drawn in all of this extra grain.
DR Dr Rad
28:37
I hear what you’re saying. However, my question is, and I actually don’t know the answer to this. It’s just something that’s occurred to me, is the problem that the prefect of the corn supply doesn’t have the funds. Is it kind of like our modern day?
DG Dr G
28:51
I’m just the bureaucracy. I mean, I asked them for the money, and they just never give it to me. Yeah, I have to wait for the paperwork to go through
DR Dr Rad
28:57
these days, we are constantly hearing cases where businesses are stepping in because they have more money, more cash flow than most governments in the world
DG Dr G
29:06
and streamline their decision making and they don’t have to jump through a whole bunch of legal No, it’s
DR Dr Rad
29:10
not democracy. So yeah, I mean, maybe Is that what’s going on? Not that this is not that I’m in any way suggesting that room is a democracy. But I’m just wondering if maybe this prefect of the quantify means you don’t actually have unlimited funds to secure
DG Dr G
29:26
Yeah, and maybe he’s asking around, but maybe he doesn’t have the monetary capacity to me. Yeah, just stick
DR Dr Rad
29:32
Exactly. Well, I still have Lucia some indicators listed as the prefect to quantify for this year as well. Libby actually specifically notes that he’s not sure whether he was reappointed, or whether he just been elected for some sort of indefinite period until the problem was solved because these sources are in conflict. However, Manoukian is named in the linen roles as a magistrate for 440 and 439. Hence why Levine sort of bringing all this up and linen roles preserved a chronological list of magistrates. So it indicates that Liddy’s sources I would say, rather than living himself have gone and consulted these documents.
DG Dr G
30:12
Yeah. And it sounds like I mean, it seems reasonable that this is not just a one year issue, if you’re having a famine, this is good to have flow on consequences, because as soon as you’ve got people hungry and unable to do the hard physical labour that is required to get the seeds in to do the work, or who are going after that crop and bringing the next one the harvest. Yeah, well, you’re going to have problems the next year as well. Yeah. So you start to spiral really, quite quickly. Yeah. If you’ve got a situation where your crop gets knocked out one year,
DR Dr Rad
30:42
definitely. So what happens in Libby’s account is that Monique is is obviously still trying really hard to get some corn. And this is why I wonder about the whole funding issue. malleus, of course, no problems. He’s just doing it. But the catch is that because they are trying to solve the same problem, there are similar men visiting both of their houses, and consulting with both of them. And as a result, Manoukian gradually becomes aware of the fact that nucleus might be scheming to do something really terrible. And he finally got hands on and so Manoukian goes to the Senate, and starts telling them about all the signs that Malleus is giving off, that he is aiming to make himself king. So yeah, there’s a little list. So number one, he’s badgering people. How Jerry, number two weapons are being collected and stashed in his house. Ooh, yeah, I know. Number three. tribunes of the plebs are being bribed. Hmm.
DG Dr G
31:50
Never happens.
DR Dr Rad
31:52
Number four, leaders of the mob had been assigned their parts. Now that’s a direct quote from the translation that I am drawing from. I got it. That means that, you know, he’s got some people on his side who represent the populace. And he’s like, right, when I give you the signal, Robert Redford style.
DG Dr G
32:08
Yeah, you do this. This is the stick.
DR Dr Rad
32:12
Exactly. So it’s really badly planned. The final thing was, he had not yet set a date for when he was going to like roll this all into motion. You know, what we said the year before? He wasn’t quite ready yet. He wasn’t launching.
DG Dr G
32:28
It’s coming, guys. It’s coming. Yeah.
DR Dr Rad
32:30
Now Manoukian is reassures the Senate that he had held off reporting on these details as long as possible, because he wanted to be 100% sure about what he was saying before he reported it so they can feel pretty certain.
DG Dr G
32:45
You gotta feel a sense of confidence that these are not just spurious claims.
DR Dr Rad
32:50
Yeah. Nice. Now, when the Senate hears this, they are furious with that the spirit is the consoles of 440 because they had a loud Malleus to start handing corn out for free. And they turned the other way. When Peruvians started gathering in a private house. I mean, come on. What’s more of a tip off than that?
DG Dr G
33:16
It’s interesting, because there’s, I mean, there’s obviously quite direct similarities between Levy’s account here and Dionysius account. He does cut back in. Yeah, sometime in 439 is very exciting. Excellent, excellent. And part of what dynasty is is suggesting that happens is that there is a deficiency in spirits. maelys is character, which is obviously why he’s interested in aiming for tyranny. Definitely. And so he’s sort of prompted by a whole bunch of like, poor character flaws. Yeah. But what he does, according to Dionysius, is that because he’s actually doing something about this grain supply issue, and he appears to be solving it, and he’s going on to sell the grain that he acquires at discount rates at a loss to himself. He’s definitely bought it for more than he’s selling it for. Right. And in some insist, starting to give it away for free to people who really need it. He’s gathered a really loyal bunch of popular support. Yeah. And they’re basically like, functional politics will rule in this place. And they’ll like, we see you prefect of the grain supply. Yeah. Doing nothing. Yeah, not solving the problem. Get out of that magisterial chair you don’t belong in it. And Melee is please sit down so he starts acting like a magistrate de facto because Manoukian can’t get back in because they’re like yeah, he’s got the whole people being like you don’t know anything about
34:41
yourself and Nacho
DR Dr Rad
34:44
he’s like, No, I don’t treat his haven’t been invented yet.
DG Dr G
34:50
And they put melee us on the chair. And so this is a direct violation of everything about the traditional way of Romans doing things and this is To the people stepping up and being like, Well, if he knows how to solve the grain problem, I guess he gets to be the prefect of the grain. And everyone’s like, yes, yes. But Manoukian is like, well, I’m in trouble. One. It’s a problem that I’ve had my chair taken away from me. And now that guy is sitting in it, yeah. But there’s no way that this isn’t going to turn against me. Like, if maelys is going to keep this up, he’s probably going to have to kill me. I need to have countermeasures in place. Interesting. So he spends a lot of time doing the rounds, having quiet chats to people, because he’s like, not everybody who’s working for me, alias is can be loyal. Yeah, Surely not. There’s got to be a weak link in this chain. And when he finds that person, yeah, that person gives you becomes an informant. And then he gets the proof he needs to go to the Senate.
DR Dr Rad
35:51
Yeah, nice. I like your version much better. It’s like a film law. Any hearing so back in my version, are also angry with the new consoles because they had to wait for Manoukian to bring this to their attention. Whereas, you know, they should have probably done something about it by now.
DG Dr G
36:11
It’s interesting how hands off the consoles have been
DR Dr Rad
36:14
especially capitalised. It’s I mean, come on. Yeah. And
DG Dr G
36:16
they haven’t been paying attention or if they have been paying attention, they’ve decided not to act, either is problematic. This is
DR Dr Rad
36:25
okay. This is where they’ve it gets interesting. And I think we can definitely sense a patrician line of thought coming through. Because capital, Linus, of course, being the star that he is, he’s going to take that line down. And so he says, well, oh, you can’t get angry at us for this whole situation, the laws of appeal of what’s holding us back here. That’s where you really have to wait. Because the laws of appeal were designed to undermine consular power. And they were stopping him from punishing crimes as harshly as they needed to be. Now Wow, getting that I don’t think he punished Malleus like at all that logic? Well,
DG Dr G
37:03
I was gonna say one melee, it hasn’t hasn’t faced any sort of formal proceedings yet. So he hasn’t had a chance to appeal.
DR Dr Rad
37:10
No, no. And this is going back to something that we talked about for the for 49. Year that never ended, which is that when the second December, it was finally removed from office. There was a restoration of certain parts of the Roman state and hilarious and Herati is and this law of appeal was one of those it would seem that the patricians never really got over the fact that that was reintroduced, along with things like you know Tribune’s as the plebs. These are things that they could have lived without, even though they were happy to get rid of the second December it clearly, however, Dr. G. This is a situation that calls for one man, not limited by laws. One man who is bold and sexier, one man who
DG Dr G
37:58
happens to be 80 years old, at this point.
2 Speaker 2
38:02
One man called uses good ideas. In other words,
DG Dr G
38:09
call out the old man.
2 Speaker 2
38:11
Everyone’s thrilled except for Cincinnatus. He’s too old for this shit. Literally.
DG Dr G
38:18
Yeah, we haven’t heard from Cincinnatus in a while. And I don’t think anybody in their right mind would be expecting to level with you. Because he is so old. He is a cynics at this point in every sense of the word he has to be at least at
DR Dr Rad
38:32
I can’t remember the last time he was dictator in our account. It was a long time ago for 50 a day. There you go. Yeah,
DG Dr G
38:39
let me let me go back and check that detail.
DR Dr Rad
38:41
Yeah, yeah, that’s all right. But yeah, while you check that oh, man, of course that saying to him Oh, but Cincinnatus.
2 Speaker 2
38:48
You’re so wise, you’re so brave. You’re still a Silva. Fuck
DR Dr Rad
38:54
you still fun and stuff?
DG Dr G
38:58
Yeah, you just keep going. It’s like Methuselah is just in is never ready
DR Dr Rad
39:02
yet. The consoles are not going to give up. They want Him and Him alone for this job.
DG Dr G
39:08
So I think this is a really, really fascinating moment in early Roman history. And it’s partly because of the way this the subsequent events go down. And also because of the elements of alternative accounts that Dionysus will bring into this narrative. There are two narratives for how what happens next goes down.
DR Dr Rad
39:32
Okay, well, should I go with mine? And then oh, yeah, go for it. All right. Okay. So Cincinnatus, of course, always gives in hence why the Romans love him. He’s always
DG Dr G
39:42
grumpy, but he says, Yes. Like Luke from
DR Dr Rad
39:45
the Gilmore Girls, you know, he’s grumpy, but he’s there. Anyway, so he’s praying that the gods are not going to let an old man falter when Rome is in such danger, but he accepts that position, and he chooses one Gaius Sebelius a holla. Uh huh. as master of his horse, okay. Now, obviously, as we talked about before, dictator, there’s usually like a military element to this. And hence why you would choose a master the horse, who would be in charge of your cavalry also be like a lieutenant or deputy to the dictator. So it makes sense that that’s why they have this sort of arrangement in this particular context. At the moment, obviously, he’s trying to solve political issues, but ones that are threatening enough, it might lead to military events
DG Dr G
40:36
where you can think of the dictatorship and the master like the dictator, and the master of the horse as being two sides of the power coin, if you like, is now streamlining everything into a hierarchy, where you’ve got judicial power at the top, which is the dictator, and you’ve got directly below him his capacity to Command Military power for the execution exactly of whatever needs to be done. Yes. It’s about getting the job done in the fastest way possible. Yeah. Swift and easy. No discussion.
DR Dr Rad
41:04
Yes. And that’s what he’s been known for in the past. And sure enough, he does it again. So in my account, Cincinnatus, stationing guards along the route to the farm, and that of course sets the plebs off thinking was gonna wait a bit. There aren’t normally guys around here. What’s going on? Now Melee is his crew and Malleus since it maybe this might have something to do with what they’ve been up to recently. No, yeah. Some people of course, had no idea that there was a conspiracy afoot, so they’re genuinely confused. So like, is there a war happening? I haven’t heard is Cincinnatus being called in because of some foreign invader? Yes. The
DG Dr G
41:42
Nacho King. Yeah.
DR Dr Rad
41:43
I mean, yes. And they like particularly Cincinnatus. I mean, he’s seriously old man, what’s going on? So there’s some very confused and
DG Dr G
41:51
that’s due to the wheelchair. Yeah, done those questions.
DR Dr Rad
41:56
Now, a holla is sent off by Cincinnatus to go and fetch Malleus course through the problem Malleus is terrified naturally, and asked why am I being summoned playing the innocent card girl love it. And how that tells him well, you’re going to be put on trial you’ve been accused by the nucleus of you know, conspiring to be king
DG Dr G
42:17
do
DR Dr Rad
42:19
Melee is tries to retreat from this whole situation and try to use his you know, entourage around him to like shield himself and it’s playing down. He’s like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve never even heard of the word Rex. What do you mean? Okay, but their intent on dragging him away, even if it means that they have to use force. So this is exactly this is exactly what the monster of the voice is full. Yeah, exactly. Now Melee is naturally uses his last card, which is he screams out to the plebs for protection. Now, we might recall, because of all the free grain very predisposed towards him, they very much like him. And so they’re a bit like, Okay, what’s going on? Now? Uh, huh. knows that this could potentially therefore escalate really quickly into something highly unpleasant and unnecessary. So he kills him on the spot. Hmm. Yeah. It’s a trap.
DG Dr G
43:13
Quick and easy. Yeah. Done and dusted. Yeah, no questions asked.
DR Dr Rad
43:19
So a holler is now covered in blood, because it’s just killed man. Oh, we did it himself. Oh, yeah. A real man takes out his injuries and Oh, boy. Yeah. So he’s covered in blood and his group around him our guys none other than the young rhetoricians. You Who else would be sent to carry out such a job. So he goes back to Cincinnatus with these people and himself looking the way they does, and explains how Melee has had resisted arrest and then you know, causing an issue and therefore, he killed him,
DG Dr G
43:53
you know, establish that. Yeah,
DR Dr Rad
43:54
exactly. Cincinnatus doesn’t say, well, that’s not the proper procedure. In my account, he says, Well done guy as soon as you have delivered the common. Most Excellent. Oh, no. Yes. Now, of course, everyone else is still quite confused. Because some people didn’t know about the conspiracy. And some people who had heard Melee is calling out for help. They don’t really know how to feel about this. And so there’s a fair amount of chaos in the streets. So Cincinnatus orders and assembly to this assembly, he explains that Melee is yes, has been killed, technically, had not been put on trial, and therefore, I guess was innocent. And Cincinnati’s had been prepared to listen to what he had to say and you know, give a fair judgement, make a reasoned decision. However, that just hadn’t been what happened, you know, chips fall where they do,
DG Dr G
44:51
so unfortunate, but he’s dead.
DR Dr Rad
44:53
Exactly. Melee is of course had been well aware that Rome wasn’t keen on kings and that they had have historically not liked people who tried to bring it back, refer to spurious Cassius of the 480s and the decimal years of more recent memory, we don’t like them. But at least those people had some sort of real achievement. You know, they had some nobility about them, who was Malleus he was that thing. The best set he could have ever dreamed of, was to be a plebeian tribute. And that’s not saying very much because we know housings and others feels about them. Melius had been so Craven and he imagined that he could buy the firm’s with some good leads. And so I think you can see where Cincinnatus is going with this. I can see his patrician Yeah, buyers coming out here. Do
DG Dr G
45:51
the people buy it?
DR Dr Rad
45:53
Well, you know, it’s not so much whether they buy it. But Cincinnatus decides that you know what, actually, after hearing myself talk, now that I reflect upon it, yeah, I actually don’t think that killing him on the spot without a trial is enough. And so they decided that they’re going to completely tear his house to the ground, because it was the place where he is even blown and insanity had been conceived, and that his property should be confiscated, as he had tried to buy Rome with it. Wow. So the question is, are ordered by Cincinnatus, to collect all this stuff, and the money is going to go into the public treasury. And that is where 439 finishes up believing?
DG Dr G
46:37
Wow. All right, what a tale.
DR Dr Rad
46:40
I miss International. Yeah, he’s
DG Dr G
46:42
back in town. Boy, things are spicy again. It doesn’t take him long. Yeah. So I’ve got some various accounts, both of which are predominantly quite different. So we’ve got the new case going to the Senate. It’s kind of like the last sort of moment that I think I gave you on this account. And he informs them with his informing me like, look, I’ve got proof that alias is up to no good. And then the crisis that happens with dinosaurs of Pelican assets in this moment is that his speech is missing.
2 Speaker 2
47:19
I never what did I know? And Leakey hamburger
DG Dr G
47:24
sauce cuts out. Yeah, the speech is missing. And the source cuts back in again. And action is happening.
DR Dr Rad
47:32
Right? Okay.
DG Dr G
47:32
So you’re like, okay, so Manoukian gave a big speech, and we don’t hear the details of it. But nevertheless, what we know is that the Senate decides that they must choose a dictator, right? And they must appoint a master of the horse, right? And that’s fine, and dynasties of Halicarnassus, it seems and we can only guess because we’ve only got like bits and pieces here and there. We’re not getting the whole source at this point. It seems like he holds back on telling us who the dictator is. And who the master of the horses. What Yeah, he reveals the names later into the narrative. There’s just like a suspense building moment for him.
DR Dr Rad
48:08
When a master storyteller, he’s Reverend ethics,
DG Dr G
48:10
he should. And one of the things that gets decided in this meeting, because it appears that Cincinnatus is in the city, they that there doesn’t seem to be any travel narrative and going out to the farm, or
DR Dr Rad
48:21
that’s true, the funny thing was just my embellishment
DG Dr G
48:23
doesn’t he does seem to be around and so they find him quite quickly
DR Dr Rad
48:27
when he is at. So
DG Dr G
48:29
when he’s gonna walk or something over there, pick him up and take him away. Chase that old man, bring him back to the senate house. And what they do is they decide that they need to secure the Capitol. And fundamentally, the Capitol is this hill in the centre of Rome. And it’s considered important from a defensive perspective. And in these really early accounts, or certainly later writers suggest that there is a citadel some sort of defensive structure on the top of it, that seems to maybe pre date the temples and things like that, alongside them, because you have the story of Tom Peyer, who goes in very early on under the kings and tries to convince Titus teachers to do some stuff. And anyway, she compromises the whole capital fortress. Yes. So they decided that they need to hold this defensive structure quite secretly. Right. So in the middle of the night, their first plan is to secretly move over to the capital, and stake it out and get their position ready, because they what they don’t want is they don’t want melee us to find out that they’ve put in a dictator. Right. Okay. They want him to continue to behave as normal, right? So the sun rises over the Roman Forum, and melee us wanders in with these chums. The populace. He’s tossing green here, he’s tossing green there. People are grabbing it on the air, it looks like gold. And he sits down on the ministerial chair. I’m open nucleus, which the people have given to him, and he starts to conduct his daily business being like, Alright, I’m the prefect of the grain, what you want, like small grain, he’s like Chuck, a handful people scramble
DR Dr Rad
50:14
and
DG Dr G
50:16
people are loving it. And it’s at that point that the master of the horse named not yet revealed, turns up at the forum
DR Dr Rad
50:25
and says a holla.
DG Dr G
50:30
Turns up with the flower of the Roman knights. So this might be code for the younger generation isn’t
DR Dr Rad
50:38
really the young patricians, Ferraris around.
DG Dr G
50:41
What’s really interesting is that Dionysius tells us that these men are carrying swords under their clothing. Look, I
DR Dr Rad
50:49
would expect nothing less, except maybe switchblades. Because that’s more in keeping with the younger trend.
DG Dr G
50:54
But to me, it’s like this moment, that’s quiet. I was like, Wait a minute. We’re inside the premium at this point.
DR Dr Rad
51:02
Now you write it for me.
DG Dr G
51:04
And just because there is a dictator in power, yeah, doesn’t mean doesn’t mean you get to carry a sword inside the primaries. And so I went checked the the actual Greek being like, is this like somebody’s doing a bit of a dirty on the translation? Yeah, but it’s definitely the Greek word for sword. Wow. So they do have swords inside the pair, Mariam, and traditionally, the dictator gets to have 24 lictors shot. And the thing that gets to distinguish him from other magistrates as he gets to have the axes inside the bundle of rugs, so 24x heads Yeah, on display inside the
DR Dr Rad
51:39
numerator threat. Yeah. Lots of threat. Yeah,
DG Dr G
51:42
lots of threat. But Swords is a different thing altogether,
DR Dr Rad
51:45
and not being carried that you know, it is just a thread it is supposed to be open. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
DG Dr G
51:51
So swords hidden underneath your clothing is like, what is going on here?
DR Dr Rad
51:55
Yeah. And also tricky, given that they don’t have zippers around your title
DG Dr G
51:59
with a little piece of string, like you’re under tunic, and then it slices off your what’s it like,
DR Dr Rad
52:04
oh, boy, I’m just imagining, again, going back to the time where you and I wore something akin to Roman clothing. I’m just like, where would you put it? It’s telling the butt cheeks blade would be balanced.
DG Dr G
52:16
Yeah, secretly in between some folds, but definitely not near the skin.
52:21
And Marcus, you look like a classic faded.
DG Dr G
52:24
Just walking very carefully. Blade between my butt cheeks.
DR Dr Rad
52:28
make me sad. It’s just an haemorrhoids.
DG Dr G
52:30
And so we’ve got this situation, which is highly unusual. And I want to hold on to it because I think it’s going to become relevant to my interpretation of what might be going on here. Lana, okay, so hold that one. Okay. Malleus has a pretty reasonable question when he sees these dudes turn up, because it’s pretty clear that something’s not quite right. Sure. And civilians has now revealed himself. He’s like, Oh, man, this is like, Can I help you? Yeah. And he’s like, on the master of the horse. And mainly, this is like, since when? Do we have a dictator? Yes, exactly. Which is a reasonable question, given the scenario. Yeah. And it’s like, since last night. And then like, you’ve got to come with us. And it’s like, you know, civilians gives this speech, or Dionysus gives it to him. And it’s basically like, look, you’ve been accused of certain things, including, you know, aspiring to revolution, aspiring to kingship, you’re going to have to come and answer to the dictator. We’re going to have a chat about that, you need to kick it over to the capitol where everybody’s hanging out for that chat. Yes. So it makes it seem like this is a very civilised, sort of, well, you know, I’m just here during the execution of the month of the horse job. And you’re just the guy who’s been accused of like, trying to become a king. Yeah, you know, if you come with us, we’ll figure that out shot. And Malea is like I’m not going Oh. And so he’s like, he turns to the people and he’s like, help me these people do not want to talk to me. They want to kill me.
DR Dr Rad
54:11
Before he did that you neglected to mention the grab some pastries and put them up with yours. And he was like, help me only hope.
DG Dr G
54:19
Stuffing grain like I need your help is not a trial and being summoned to death. Yeah. And while this is happening, this sort of creates a sort of stir amongst the people unless the confusion and stuff Yeah, and it seems pretty clear that Melee is is gonna get arrested. Right. You know, the the men with the swords are sort of closing in.
DR Dr Rad
54:42
I was kind of figuring that. That’s what was happening. Yeah, I mean, you’re arrested. Yeah,
DG Dr G
54:46
the plebeians aren’t armed. You’re not supposed to be armed. Yeah, you know, so they’re kind of like thoughts. I don’t know. And so there’s, there’s a sense in which the people want to help but they also don’t want to get involved because they’re like, ooh, blades. Not great for me.
DR Dr Rad
55:00
I don’t have one of those. Yeah,
DG Dr G
55:01
I’m not ready for that. Yeah. And so he kind of runs away. And so then he gets Chase rice. And then he runs up to a butcher store.
55:11
Oh, God another.
DG Dr G
55:14
I know we’ve we’ve had this kind of moment before such a safety hazard that he grabs a cleaver needed to believe. And also like, you know, you’ve got to defend yourself. All of a sudden they all have these men’s with swords are coming after you. Sure. So he then you start swinging wildly with his cleaver. He actually hacks off somebody’s arm. Yeah. Terrible.
DR Dr Rad
55:37
Sorry. Sherry, just a second visual, and I definitely miss that for the first couple seconds.
DG Dr G
55:42
Yeah. So he, like people are coming out in with swords and hacks off one of their arms. Right. This opens up
DR Dr Rad
55:50
the licence for violent, right. Yes. Provocation
DG Dr G
55:53
provocation. Yeah. And they proceed to hack into pieces. Okay, yeah. They dismember him in the forum, at the site of the butcher stand. And then they put his body on display all the pieces of it. Yeah. And they put it somewhere prominent in the forum. And then they go back to Cincinnatus.
DR Dr Rad
56:17
This is sounding almost mediaeval in the way like displaying body parts of December traders. Yeah. If it has mentioned right here, reason why we said the butcher thing is because that’s how the creature is dad. No, sorry. Virginia’s dad managed to kill her. Yeah. Think butcher’s knife. Yeah, there’s not meant to be any weapons in that place. And that’s how he managed to do it. Yeah.
DG Dr G
56:39
Yeah. The witches stand becomes very convenient when you can’t have weapons in the forest. Turns out, because there’s clearly you can have bleeds for practical use and the tools you need to do your trade. Yeah. So they make a clear distinction between weapons and the practical things.
DR Dr Rad
56:57
I love this. You can I’m picturing right now, if this was like an Ocean’s 11 type film in Rome in any setting. They’re like, how do we get weapons inside the area? Simple?
2 Speaker 2
57:11
Yeah. Anyway, everyone goes, you’re right. The loophole that we needed now the plan is complete.
DG Dr G
57:18
And so this has a real sort of flow on effect because civilians goes back to the Senate. Yeah. And Cincinnatus. Yeah. And he has to explain his actions. I mean, he does try to defend himself. And he’s like, look, you know, he pulled a cleaver on us. Yeah. You have to wonder the man’s arms off flower of the youth. We dismembered it. As if that doesn’t take a lot of time and effort. Yeah, probably more of the butcher’s equipment. Yeah. And the other thing that’s going on at the same time is is this groundswell in support of Melee is coming from the plebeians. Sure, some of those voices are really vocal. Cincinnatus stays in power as dictator, to make sure that those people are quietly slaughtered. Yeah, so he puts these men to death secretly. And then resigns.
DR Dr Rad
58:17
Wow. Well, yeah. I mean, that’s how Cincinnatus gets things done.
DG Dr G
58:21
Yeah, but wait for it. Yeah. And this, this is where things get things get really interesting because then Dionysius tells us that this is the account that he thinks he’s credible. Mm hmm. But there are other accounts told by other historians Yeah, which he thinks should not be believed. Okay. And they’re told to us by Cynthia’s and Calpurnius well, but they’re both historians, and they’re both closer to the action than Dionysus. Oh, yeah. No doubt. Yeah. So this is Lucia, Cynthia’s elementis, who is a Roman senator and historian from the early No, the late third century BCE. So he’s upright or in 210 BCE, so we might see him come up later. Yeah. And he also seems to have some chats with Hannibal at certain times. And then we’ve also got Lucy is Calpurnius piso frugi. Oh, I’ve heard of him. Yeah. Who is tribune of the plebs in 149 BCE, constantly 133 which will stand out as the date of significance to other listeners, I am sure. And is an opponent infamously of glass Grappas.
DR Dr Rad
59:30
Yeah, definitely connected to the gracchi there.
DG Dr G
59:33
Yeah. And he writes a seven book, animalistic history. And both of these historians give a different version of the things which I think I’m gonna spoiler alert. I think it’s more believable.
DR Dr Rad
59:46
Really? Yeah, I kind of really digging the version you were telling said,
DG Dr G
59:49
but I think the version that we’ve just been told, is a protrusion cover up for
DR Dr Rad
59:57
an assassination
DG Dr G
59:58
well explaining the misuse have power. Yeah. Because there are weapons in the forum. Yeah. I don’t think a dictator can really do that. It doesn’t seem right. It’s a it’s a misuse.
DR Dr Rad
1:00:08
Like even in lady’s account, which now seems ridiculously sugar coated, I mean, always like I could read this for three year old. It’s so good. They’re just remembering exactly. However, I think you can definitely see that there were questions being asked about how things were taken care of. Yeah. And that’s why Cincinnatus felt the need to call that assembly, because didn’t happen the way it’s supposed to.
DG Dr G
1:00:31
Yeah, yeah, there are some real issues with what happens in this year yet seem. And so one of these things is that we’ve got this idea that Manoukian This is informing, on May alias. And in that meeting, the Senate gets so stirred up about this possibility of the kingship question, that they come to a decision to actually put into death without a trial. That’s the decision that they make. Now, this is the alternative narrative, which seems more and more plausible, the more I think about it, so they look for somebody to appoint to this task. And civilians is the kind of slightly crazed in the eye nebulous young man. Yes. Who says that he will do it? Yeah. He’s one of these young patrician types. Yeah. And so he takes his dagger, and he hides it under his cloak. He approaches melee us in the forum goes up to him while he’s holding court on that ministry or tab that he’s not supposed to be on and says, Can we have a word man to man for a moment? I need to, you know, we need a
DR Dr Rad
1:01:40
bit of a private chat. And he’s standing right there.
DG Dr G
1:01:43
We need a bit of a private check. Yeah, give us some space. Yeah. Melee says like, sees that he’s serious knows that. He’s a patrician. Yeah. And it’s like, Oh, sure. But um, yeah, like, please some space and we need to have a private chat now. Yes. is still a rich guy. Man. This is still a rich guy. Yeah. Connections. Yeah. Yeah. And he can see that it’s serious. And he gives the space. Yeah. And civilians pulls out the dagger and stabs him straight into the jugular. Goes straight for the throat. Mainly it bleeds out in front of everybody. So obvious civilians has to run away. This is why he’s got blood all over him. How do you get a lot of Liviu? Somebody bleeds out in three minutes? And you’re there holding the dagger?
DR Dr Rad
1:02:24
Yeah, yeah.
DG Dr G
1:02:26
Wrote stabbed?
DR Dr Rad
1:02:27
God. Yeah. Yes. Aha.
DG Dr G
1:02:34
He runs back to the senate house. And people pursue him. So he has to get out of there quickly. Like, this is like he’s one man. Yeah. And he’s
DR Dr Rad
1:02:42
just turned around. And Integra,
DG Dr G
1:02:44
she stabbed the guy that everybody’s on the side of in the forum right in front of them. Yeah. Yeah,
1:02:51
he’s the key to grain man. really gonna get the notches now.
DG Dr G
1:02:56
I was looking forward to the guacamole, bringing up a kados that was next on the list. And he so he runs into the Senate House with people pursuing him. And he says he screams out that he’s destroyed the tyrant at the command of the Senate. So we tried to like, you know, trying to like you know, yeah, and also to like, you know, keep those people back. Yeah. You know, like I did it on the orders of the Senate. That’s why I did I was only following orders.
DR Dr Rad
1:03:25
Yeah, times and we had that one.
DG Dr G
1:03:28
Yeah. And so this whole problem is a thing where for some reason, Dionysius decides to go into a slight digression where he explains the cognomen. Allah, Allah,
DR Dr Rad
1:03:44
we already know. So you’ll see
DG Dr G
1:03:47
a lot, which doesn’t really work very well in Greek, apparently, but apparently, it’s because he was hiding the dagger in his armpit. Right. And this is what the Romans called the armpit of the Hola.
DR Dr Rad
1:03:59
Uh huh.
DG Dr G
1:04:04
And so we get these other accounts then from other sources, which suggests that civilians has to be exiled. Hmm. So in order for this to work, and in order for, you know, the Senate to be able to continue to suggest that it’s got some legitimacy. Yes. They’ve got to get rid of him.
1:04:26
Before the penalty.
DG Dr G
1:04:27
Yeah, yeah. But it strikes me that we’ve got this moment where, because neither of these stories make heaps of sense, but I think this second one might make more sense that there is actually a misuse and abuse of patrician power in this moment, you get wound up about this guy. And since an artist is a nice story, for them to be able to say, well, it was all legitimate and it was all done under a dictator and it was all fine. But you’ve got this other counter narrative, which suggests that there wasn’t a dictator. It was just The decision made in the Senate, they just execute this guy without a trial. And they asked for a volunteer and severely this was the crazy guy who said he do it. And presumably there was some sort of reward for a minute, but he was going to have to go into exile afterwards. And that’s how they were going to dust their hands of it, and just have it done. Which sounds to me more like the kind of patrician Senate power plays that we’re used to seeing just going that one step further, which is a step too far.
DR Dr Rad
1:05:28
See? God, I mean, look, part of me is loath to give up the idea of Cincinnatus being a part of this, because then he can’t say the lethal weapon line. But do you see where you’re coming from?
DG Dr G
1:05:41
It seems like there’s there is something going on in this year. And clearly melee us doesn’t come out alive. No, he’s ended up dead. Yeah. How do we explain it? And it’s like, you’ve got the dictatorship as this point of legitimacy. But you’ve still got the issue of at least in Dionysius, this use of swords?
DR Dr Rad
1:06:03
Oh, look, I
DG Dr G
1:06:04
think and which I account to, to me is like, yeah, I felt the plant. My mind is not comfortable with that tension. And I’m like, Oh, I feel like there’s more that I want to investigate there. And I’m not a specialist in early Roman republican history. No, me and yet, like, know what’s
DR Dr Rad
1:06:21
happening, I think we’ve got a bit of a feel for the type of characters that we’re dealing with and the kind of situation that has arisen. And we can definitely see that there is still a lot of unhappiness about a lot of the things that were restored. In the wake of the second December, even 10 years. Aren’t they’re not over it. Oh, yeah.
DG Dr G
1:06:41
By no means no.
DR Dr Rad
1:06:43
And they never will be. So there’s all of that going on. But yeah, I can totally see where you’re coming from with that whole thing. On top of which, I feel like even saying that what Melius had done in Levy’s account, you know, giving out the green for free, that this was a really terrible precedent. I feel like that is coming from his own time. I mean, at this moment in time, people are starving. You gotta get them green. Manoukian ain’t cabinet. No. So yeah, I get where he’s coming from in terms of, I’m generally not a huge fan of private people stepping in where a government should be. But this is not the
DG Dr G
1:07:24
life and death situation. Yeah. And he’s doing something. Yeah. And
DR Dr Rad
1:07:29
this isn’t the kind of government that I would probably want in charge. Anyway. So yeah, wherever women’s rights? Yeah, exactly. Anywho. Wow. Okay, well, what a roller coaster. I think it’s time for the Marshall big. Your impression of ego gets better every time.
DG Dr G
1:07:48
Thank you. Thank you. Thank
DR Dr Rad
1:07:49
you. All right, Dr. G, so I have no idea where we’re going to end up for these two years. Let’s see how we go. Well, okay,
DG Dr G
1:07:54
so we’ve got five categories. Yes. It should be scored out of 10 Gold eagles. Yeah, for possible maximum of 50 Gold Eagle indeed. All right. The first category military clout. No. But that was the least the ones mentioned.
DR Dr Rad
1:08:12
It was on space. Not in a military capacity.
DG Dr G
1:08:16
All right. big fat zero. Diplomacy. Still think No. on the ground? Yeah. Very thin on the ground, you know, the
1:08:24
stabbing in the jugular?
DG Dr G
1:08:28
Yeah, you know, I mean, regardless of you know, dismembered and put on display, yeah, stabbed in the jugular and bleeding out in front of everybody.
DR Dr Rad
1:08:36
Like it’s not the most diplomatic thing I’ve ever seen.
DG Dr G
1:08:40
Even for Roman stand, yes. Zero. Expansion.
DR Dr Rad
1:08:46
No, hard. No, no,
DG Dr G
1:08:48
we’re tours are it’s tough. Because you know, if the Romans are going with it, if they sincerely decide that since an artist is the narrative that this that man just carries were to us with him everywhere. Yeah. So there always would have to be at least one point on the table. I think just because he’s been mentioned.
DR Dr Rad
1:09:03
Yeah, I was gonna say yeah, I feel like as much as we might be super suspicious of what’s gone down here that people like Cincinnatus, and even a holla could be said to be acting with weird force in this situation, depending on the version.
DG Dr G
1:09:22
Yeah, depending on who you read. Yeah,
DR Dr Rad
1:09:25
yeah. So I’m really to say maybe like a two.
DG Dr G
1:09:29
Oh, yeah. One for each man. Yeah, ending on whether you’re taking a patrician reading. Yeah, well, this is the thing.
DR Dr Rad
1:09:35
I’m highly suspicious of them versus etc. So and even even by Roman standards, again, with using that term previously here in the sense that I feel like the majority of Romans would not have been pleased by what just went down, that once again, this is an act that servicing a patrician minority, and their grasp on power. And so it’s witness for them, but the way they’re painting it as being like about liberty? Not so sure. I really don’t think so. I mean, if we wait for you to die of starvation under our leadership, definitely, if we think back to you, okay, the December’s it’s a little hard to tell because there’s you know, 10 of the one year term and another year, some of them are thought to be fictional, whatever. It’s been hard to talk about them. But spruce, Cassius is other person who’s mentioned as being someone who did to aspire to the kingship in the 480s, and was there for cut down. We also if you might remember, thought he was actually kind of a good guy trying to do the right thing. And he was just considered to be almost like a class traitor. And that’s where he went wrong. So we’ll give them to ya.
DG Dr G
1:10:53
In short information to feel weird to us exactly. Lots of asterisks and question marks remain. And finally, the citizen score. Was this a great time to be a citizen of Rome? sub level? Yes, all of a sudden, you didn’t have to pay for grade and you weren’t starving anymore? True. On the other hand, a lot of you had stabbed
DR Dr Rad
1:11:13
and throw yourself into the sky. But yeah, and then the guy who’s giving you the free grain got
DG Dr G
1:11:17
murdered in front of you.
DR Dr Rad
1:11:20
And you didn’t understand what was going on. Now. You’re
DG Dr G
1:11:22
traumatised? Yes. Not enough therapy in ancient Rome for this
DR Dr Rad
1:11:26
and it’s a huge JFK conspiracy cover up following this whole thing. So I have no idea where to stand.
DG Dr G
1:11:32
Yeah, like this, like, you know, outside tail of having to hold the capitol for what?
DR Dr Rad
1:11:37
Yeah, metal of maybe three. That’s been probably generous. I honestly have no idea how to write
DG Dr G
1:11:46
I’m having to give them five okay, cuz you think about it, like on the one hand, or vision or starvation and, and the trauma of watching somebody that you thought was doing a good job for you get murdered in front of you. Yeah, on the other hand, a couple of years where life was tough, but Green was coming into the city and somebody was taking care of it. Yeah. And you felt like, actually, there was this glimmer of possibility where the people could do the politics like they shoved Manoukian out of that chair. Yeah. And they’re like, yeah, yeah, yella, and they put me alias in there. And they’re like, you’re the man for us. And it’s as good as this we voted you in because that’s what we’re gonna say we did.
DR Dr Rad
1:12:25
But then that glimmer of hope was snuffed out by an assassin’s blade. I feel like it has to be a four. Just because because of the assassin negotiations. You convinced me you convinced me that Melee is was assassinated? You can sinister film lost our blood worthy of The Godfather. I think Francis Ford Coppola.
1:12:46
What are you doing?
DG Dr G
1:12:47
I imagine Yeah, hello. Bringing back the Roman epic. Yeah. All right, forward is okay. Okay,
DR Dr Rad
1:12:53
so that means FDG that we have wind up with a grand total of six golden eagles. We still feels like way too many.
DG Dr G
1:13:01
It is a terrible time for Rome to be row. Yeah.
DR Dr Rad
1:13:05
Anyway, join us next time for what will undoubtedly be a very messy mopping
DG Dr G
1:13:13
the stoop blood in the forest.
DR Dr Rad
1:13:20
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians, we would like to send a special thank you out to all of our patrons who support the show, and also a big welcome to our newest Patreon, Mickey is porque es and Virginia. Stay away from those butcher stands Virginia. YouTube can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and occasionally some bonus content just for you. There are however, other ways that you can support our show. You can spread the word by buying and wearing some of our merch or support our collaboration with the talented Bridgette Clark, who has been helping us to produce some artwork on Gumroad. However, if this is not within your means, then please give us five star reviews or spread the word anyway that you can you have no idea how much that boosts our morale and keeps us going as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.
Special Episode – Ancient Athenian Women with Associate Professor Rebecca Futo Kennedy
Jun 30, 2022
We sat down recently with Associate Professor Rebecca Futo Kennedy to talk all about Ancient Greek women, specifically in relation to Athens.
Futo Kennedy teaches in Classical Studies, Women’s and Gender Studies, and Environmental Studies at Denison University. Kennedy holds a BA in Classical Studies, an MA in Greek and Latin, and completed her PhD on the representation of Athena in the tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles at Ohio State University. Kennedy’s most recent monograph is entitled Immigrant Women in Athens: Gender, Ethnicity, and Citizenship in the Classical City.
Special Episode – Ancient Greek Women with Rebecca Futo Kennedy
In this conversation we explore the terminology and semantic fields of meaning connected with women in Ancient Greece including some of the persistent misconceptions and assumptions that come along with language. For example, the word hetaira is quite well-known, but what did the ancient Greeks really mean when they used the term?
How did women fit into the social structures and hierarchies of the ancient Greek city of Athens? What were women’s lives like and what does the remaining evidence suggest about how they lived and the meaning they saw in their own experiences?
We also delve into the complexities attendant upon understanding metics – foreigners in Athens and what this category meant when you were also a woman. And the conversation rounds out with a consideration of poverty in ancient Athens and the challenges in studying this subject.
Some Sources
A number of sources and scholars are mentioned in this episode. Here’s a few that come up:
We’re playing around with auto-generated transcripts. This one was generated by Otter AI.
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to the Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, that battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 0:57 Thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Rad and I are super thrilled to welcome Associate Professor Rebecca Futo Kennedy to the show. Professor Rebecca Futo Kennedy teaches in Classical Studies, women and gender studies and environmental studies at Denison University. Kennedy holds a BA in Classical Studies, and MA in Greek and Latin and completed her PhD on the representation of Athena in the trailer tragedies of Aeschylus and Sophocles at Ohio State University. Kennedy’s most recent monograph is entitled immigrant women in Athens, gender, ethnicity, and citizenship in the classical city. And it’s the subject of Athenian women and non Athenian women, that will be the subject of the conversation that we have today. So thank you so much for joining us, Rebecca.
Professor Futo Kennedy 1:52 Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate the the logistics of scheduling with such vast timezone differences. Yeah, I was looking at it today, it’s like a 14 hour time difference. So it’s somewhat of a miracle that we mathematically were able to work it out at all, to be honest. I know, I know, when we should have scheduled – when I was in Greece.
Dr G 2:18 To get started on this subject of Athenian women, and also non Athenian women, I want to talk to you about language as a first step, because it’s a really important window on to how we understand society. And this is true as much today as it was in ancient Greece, words carry certain connotations, and they start to reveal certain values to us and sense of community start to emerge from that usage as well. So as a first step, I wanted to ask you about what are some of the terms that are used for women in ancient Greece? How are women socially coded?
Professor Futo Kennedy 2:56 Yeah, it’s actually a really interesting thing. One of the things I discovered back when I was a graduate student, many, many years ago, is that there is no word for woman default, you have the word octopus, which is the word for either man or human. And you can throw a feminine article in front of it, but it’s actually very rarely done. We see it in medical texts, when you’re really just talking about a body, right? Or the female. Like there’s a word for female, but that works for humans and Non Humans, like. So the fact that you don’t really have a general word, to just say woman is, is, of course, a quite interesting thing. So what you actually have are a series of words that basically code them by marital status or relationship to children.
So the word parthenos, for example, which we often translate as virgin actually doesn’t mean virgin. It’s an unmarried girl who hasn’t had a child yet. But you can’t actually the problem is you have to think about what the word means versus how you translate it. And there’s always a gap between there because for translations, we always look for it. They all sort of pity, like one word or a short phrase. And this inevitably warps what the word actually means in context, right? So parthenos is for your sort of younger set. These are the girls who would wear their hair down and wear sleeveless tunics, and often short tuna, but it’s really for unmarried girls. And one of the things that, that some scholars have talked about is that you don’t switch over to being a gyne, which is the word that we is they often translated as woman, but it really means life is it’s childbirth, that actually does the transition, not marriage versus not married. Once you once you have a child, that’s your sort of coming of age, and that usually would have occurred in Athens, which is different from other cities sometime around 14 or 15 or 16. That’s sort of the zone for marriage for girls. We would come So there’s that child marriage now. But this is just, it’s just this it was basically, okay, they have had puberty and now it’s like a little bit out. So you’re a parthenos, you know, 13 to 14 year old. And then by the time she sort of gets married and has her first child, then she would switch to being gyne.
And then you have widows, which is pretty easy to you have a word for old women, which isn’t necessarily have any, that’s one of the ones that’s really good to grouse. It doesn’t actually have much to do with marriage status or not marriage status, it’s just old. Right, just old people. When you see it in context, it’s often used of formerly enslaved women. So you’ll see it in like the Odyssey of the old nurse of Odysseus, or in tragedy of these older former nannies for more wet nurses, characters, and then you have a series of words that are for people who are outside of the marriage track. And those can be super confusing. So one of them is the word Paula kiss or Paula Kay. There’s actually two spelling of the word. And that word is often translated as concubine. And the reason why it is translated that way is because our dictionaries are made with 19th century. Right?
Dr Rad 6:23 Right, yeah. And there’s Victorians. Yeah, so
Professor Futo Kennedy 6:26 they refer to them, because it appears in Herodotus in the context of in one particular context of the Persian harem. And so it gets coded as concubine. But then you see it in lots of different Greek contexts and Roman Greek contexts. So we have some Roman era inscriptions, in which the word appears, that are actually probably temple attendance. Because it’s a it’s a generational inscription at a temple, saying, you know, thanking the Goddess. And definitely Boudin has argued, based on the context for this, that these can’t have been generations of concubines, in the same family or us, sometimes scholars will just say, oh, it just means prostitute. Like everything is code for prostitute if it’s not wife. And so and so, it seems to actually be an attendant or a companion to the Goddess, right, as you will. And then you see it in Athenian context, where you’ll see it in tragedy to refer to and drama key. And so this idea that she’s the concubine of Achilles, son, me autonomous in the play. But and then you see is founded on a tombstone, which is super rare. And I think what it has to be that because there’s only a couple of words that go, if you’re missing letters, we’re missing some major. So apparently, when a tomb was first study, published in the 1920s, there were more letters there. But it’s in the Piraeus museum. And who knows, you know, during World War Two, they hid all the objects and tried to like hide all the different strap all the objects down when the Nazis were marching. And so I’m sure damage occurred to some of the objects but there’s a big hole where there used to be a letter. So I’m pretty sure it says politicus, because the only other option is really pull Lacus, which just means often and you wouldn’t put that on your tombstone, to list your status in relationship to a man I am often have a man talking to work. So translation pavlakis, here and also into other contexts in a CDN. Court speeches, suggests that the term also means a contracted relationship. So a not a marriage, like relationships for people who can’t actually contract a marriage. Some scholars have argued that it’s a powerless relationship. But most of the ones that I found are of non citizen women in a relationship, but there was a law in Athens. That goes back apparently to Solon, where this particular type of woman, it was a legally binding contract, and children were considered legitimate. Even if they weren’t citizens, they were still legitimate children. So arguments have been made that these were enslaved women, typically, but they wouldn’t have been able to have legitimate children, with a with their owner with their own flavour, if it was such. So I think there’s that word has like three different meanings. But everybody conflates it to concubine, thanks to our dictionaries. And then of course, probably the most well known and most contentious one is hiera, which everybody translates as core design, which is not necessarily, again, 19th century dictionary. You know, often I asked my students like, Do you know what a concubine is? Do you know two quarters of this? And they’re like, no idea.
Dr G 9:45 Yeah, like, what’s the fine grain of nuance there for the 19th century that were missing?
Professor Futo Kennedy 9:49 Yeah, right. And in the shade, it seems to be between those two words in the 19th century is one is a Turkish woman in the Ottoman Empire as foreign and one Is your your sort of grind horizontally your demi-monde girlfriend or something? But that’s the 19th century? Not, you know?
Dr G 10:11 Yeah. How do we get that into ancient Athens? Really?
Dr Rad 10:15 Yeah, absolutely. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about how the definition of hetaira has changed over time.
Professor Futo Kennedy 10:23 Yeah, it’s a funny one too, because the got coded in the 19th century by our lexicon writers, you know, Liddell and Scott and Jones as courtesans. But in like 1929, Gong wrote an article that was like, there was no like, trained finishing school for like, fine courtesans, ends and assets, like no such thing like, you know, so even in the 1920s, people were like, this is ridiculous. But it got really picked up in the 1980s by feminist scholars in the field, as part of a movement to sort of bring for scholarship of non elite women. And so this whole industry basically developed around studying prostitution in the ancient world. Part of this is part of the modern movement to de stigmatise sex work. But what they ended up doing was taking all these women who are called hetaira, in any context, even being called this thing by people who are attacking them in court, right, and treating it as a status category. First off, and then treating a cortisone as an independent, educated woman, as if they were sort of looking for, you know, someone like these 19th century women, who often were able to live outside of marriages and, and held salons and things you know, in Paris, and in London, I often think of a good example is Elizabeth Armitage, who ended up marrying a former prime minister and we had so many legacies left to her by her former partners that she was able to buy her own house in the countryside and sort of lived out her life, happily married to the man of her dreams, to an aristocrat, you know, etc. So they sort of imagined this grand courtesan, educated, liberated, and they use a spacia as the sort of model for this. Basically, misunderstanding, Athenian law. And the leading Plutarch, who 700 years after she had lived, basically said that she held a she random harem in Paris Leazes house after telling us the territories was so worried about public opinion that he wouldn’t even go to party and drink.
Dr G 12:32 So if it’s over here, this is fine.
Professor Futo Kennedy 12:34 Yeah. The harem like, she’s, she’s running, she’s running a brothel out of his living room.
Dr Rad 12:40 But you don’t have one of these, you gotta get
Professor Futo Kennedy 12:42 A girl’s gotta get educated. Right, so everybody became a hetaira. And then of course, we had this famous article in the 90s from Leslie Kirk, which is like inventing the hetaira, where she like makes this grand distinction between the courtesan and the hetaira. Oh, porne is another word for women, which she classified as the sort of streetwalker, sort of the really poor, lower class, sex worker versus the hetaira who was the high class. But, you know, you’ve looked at these dictionaries, and these words have like one word listed. The new Cambridge lexicon, actually has a really nice full definition of attire that takes into consideration the last like three decades of four decades of scholarship. So that’s one nice thing that they’ve done in that. But you see that like, The Word Appears in Sappho. And it refers to Artemis and Hera is like, hetairae. So clearly, they’re not courtesans. So it has to mean something else. So what are the things that you see that in earlier texts, a lot of contexts, it probably just means girlfriend, as in your friends who are girls on the equivalent of the word hetairos, which is your buddies that you hang out, listen to requests at parties, and we actually have this whole class of women in the sort of early fifth century, late sixth century and Athens who were like the wives and sisters and daughters of the wealthiest of the wealthy. People like Pisistratus’ daughter Coesyra, people like Elpinice, who was Miltiades, the general’s daughter and the sister of Kimon and she was married to the wealthiest man in Athens. They are not courtesans but they’re we you know, they’re clearly public figures. And we have inscriptions referring to them ostracism inscriptions, like they want their husbands or their brothers or their sons to be kicked out of the city. They’re like, take your mother with you. Take your sister with you. And so there’s all these rumours they have bad reputations like, openly gay supposedly like was having an affair with Pollack noticed the painter gasp scandal and there’s actually a vase painting in the Naples museum storage facility that at one point had her name carved on it, a painting a painting by Polacnotis. My ad shows a woman playing a flute while dancing girls are dancing and a man is looking on. Someone’s like this is a brothel scene. It’s like it’s probably a music school or a school for Young girls
Dr G 15:04 this is a bit like it’s pillow fights at a slumber party. And it’s like that’s not what the girls are doing.
Professor Futo Kennedy 15:10 It sort of reminds me though of a famous painting by Jerome called Greek interior, which basically has a bunch of, of Greek, odourless style women like you know, Aphrodite, the needy and Aphrodite posed women like all standing around naked with each other. In their bedroom. It’s like, Yeah, this is what happened in the interiors of the Divi homes,
Dr Rad 15:29 right? Yeah, as you do. That’s why no one else is allowed inside.
Professor Futo Kennedy 15:33 What’s interesting about the word had hetaira is that by the fourth century, we see it showing up in oratory. And on the comic stage. In the comic stage, it seems to refer to a transmitted as girlfriend like a girl you date, but you can’t marry or that you wouldn’t marry like the kind of girl you wouldn’t take home to mom. And but then, in the orations, it’s often an accusation. And so it seems to have this by the time you get to this to the fourth century, it seems to carry the connotation of it could be sex worker, but it could also just be a sort of all around, disreputable woman, I often translate it when I see it as whore, because it sort of captures the negative connotation, like, the one thing she had to talk to think about when you deal with this kind of material is it isn’t actually about sex work, when you’re dealing in the orations, right? It’s actually about people who are trying to attack these women and make their lives miserable, and in some cases have been sold into enslavement. So it’s can’t be you can’t translate his high res sex worker. And the idea that they’re calling these women hetaira, they can’t be these like high class respectable corazones educated women, that’s got to be imaginary. These are women who are outside of the marriage circuit, for some reason or other, and women whose whose status within the city is really tentative and fraught, and, and very dangerous, that they can be open to these tax. So it sort of moves and loses this sort of meaning of like, you know, goddesses hanging out with each other rich girls hanging out with each other. But I almost feel like, if you follow the evidence around the, the things that we see that happen, because about you know, seventh century later in the second sophistic, with people like Lucien and Athenaeus, and Plutarch, you see, you know, agonises dinner parties, all of these ideas, chord isms, quote, unquote, hentai hanging out. And same thing with Lucien has satire, the chattering quarters, and that there’s this imaginary past in Athens, which is essentially that they’re imagining in the second century CE, of the grand salon, and of all these sort of women sitting around, educated and witty, you know, women sitting around, but you can all like, drop in and dine with, you know, and you sort of have, you know, Socrates being able to sort of like, drop in and, and, and have a conversation. So you have the sort of imaginary world, that the word, that’s where it really gets this meaning, I think the court is on as we imagine it in the 19th century, it’s that’s not in our earlier texts. But what you actually have is a bunch of probably rich women whose hard headed up and, and we’re pretty public figures and like, sort of pushed against the boundaries of what was acceptable behaviour. And then by the time you get to the fourth century, that word, that behaviour is like, being the leader of women who have no choice but to be in public. Right. And so they’re, they’re sort of hitting them with this accusation of being publicly available women, as it were.
Dr Rad 16:19 Yeah, that’s so fascinating, because it kind of flies in the face of, I suppose the popular image of what an Athenian citizen woman would do in her in her life. I mean, we usually have this image of their being highly secluded, and very modest, and, you know, really, really toeing the line.
Professor Futo Kennedy 18:52 Yeah, I mean, that’s rich women, rich women probably, right. There’s a there’s a double edged sword there. So and this is one of the things that you learn when you read oration and spend a lot of time trying to deal with Athenian inheritance law, is that because married women were expected to remain mostly within that the compound to the home, right? I mean, most weeding probably took place outside they weren’t like stuck in a bedroom, or like in locked into quarters. You set up the big looms out on your outdoor space, because they’re like six feet, eight feet, and you can’t just like, take that down when you’re gonna go to bed. So in the summertime, and when weather was appropriate, they would set them up outside. And then there’s also evidence of like women going to each other’s houses in their neighbourhoods, right? So they weren’t completely secluded, but they always had a companion with them of some sort. And they did veil when they went out in public if you were a married woman, so like, if you went to a ritual, an important ritual or something, or you went out to visit a grave, which was your duty to go out and visit great, you would wear a veil. But then you have this whole world of women Who actually fill public spaces? But in the inheritance cases, what happens is that so many marriages are mismatched, right? So you got a guy who’s like, originally, original marriage might be first marriage for a man might be 35 or 40. And the girls like 15, right? Well, guy wants a second marriage, maybe his wife died in childbirth, right? So he marries again. And he’s married another 15 year old and now he’s, you know, 50. All right. So you have these mismatch in ages that you see these inheritance cases where there’s a woman, a young woman with an incident or a small child, who inherits the child is inheriting right, and it’s coming to the marriage with a woman. And they’re trying to attach a woman to prove like district cousins all come out of the woodwork. And they’re like, just like magically appearing cousins. And they are trying to prove that this woman is in fact, not the wife of this person. In some cases, they’re trying to prove that the woman never doesn’t exist, like you can claim citizenship to your grandmother, but that woman never existed. Because what happens is that these women live their lives separated off from the public spaces, they’re not presented to the Diems. For citizen registration, there are no records of their citizenship, you have the option, if you’re like, super wealthy guy, you might present your wife, or your daughter to your tribe. But that’s a sec, that’s about a civic organisation. It’s more of kinship groups. And so everything is dependent on witnesses. And there are no witnesses, because all your witnesses are like 70 years old, and you know, and they’ve died by the time you’re inheriting or your child is inheriting this. And there’s nobody to witness their lives. Because neither women, nor children, nor the enslaved count as witnesses, they don’t count. So it has to be adult citizen men. So there’s, it’s a double edged sword, where you have this whole class of women who are public and outside who are denigrated for that very thing. And then you have the women who are where property moves through in the city who are constantly in a precarious status, if they don’t have male protectors, because their lives are meant to be lived in private.
Dr G 22:02 So I think this really heads in towards this idea of like, how do we understand where women sort of sit in Athenian society, because we’ve got these like fine grained distinctions for citizen women, where it seems like the situation that you’ve just described to us is like, even when they are doing everything, right. And let’s say that they’re living a relatively secluded life, they’ve entered marriage at the appropriate age, they’re not seeing that much in public. But when they go into public, they veil themselves, nobody has a chance to really witness what is going on. Is one woman just simply replaceable for another in that kind of scenario? Like how do you distinguish individuality if they’re never really properly seen? And, and if they don’t have brothers that might also be looking after them in some way, and they don’t survive? Whatever reason, it seems hugely problematic. But there are other categories as well. And you’ve hinted at some of them already. And I was wondering if you could expand a little bit on it, like we see things like citizen women, but we’ve also hinted at that there are non citizen women. There’s definitely poor women and there’s enslaved women, and what sort of positions are we thinking about within if we’re thinking holistically about Athenian society and what it looks like for women? What are the sort of realms they inhabit?
Professor Futo Kennedy 23:20 Yeah, so one of the things that’s important is that women were in public everywhere. We talked about public versus private, but it doesn’t mean isolated in a space in a house. Right? Versus being outside. When we talk about public spaces, we mean civic spaces. So like, women were not allowed to go within a certain zone within the agora. Right? Foreigners were not allowed to go in Oh, the only citizen men could go in, but that was not the space where the markets weren’t necessarily or warehouses where that’s the space where the assembly Administration Building was, right. So you know, there are fountain houses in what we call the Athenian agora today, but the boundary stones for what counts as the Agra civic space versus the entourage generally is very different. So we have to remember that women will be outside. So over unmarried girls, they do go to the fountain houses, they you know, they do go to public rituals. They’re not veiled, they’re not hidden away. And then once you have your first child, so this is really interesting speech. Lipsius one against Aristophanes. Aristophanes was caught having an affair with the speaker’s wife. And the law in Athens is that if you are caught having an affair, if you’re caught in the act in bed with your someone’s wife, she can kill you on the spot. And this is a this family brings the lawsuit though, because he didn’t kill it or toss these in bed. He learned that his wife had a guest over and the thing we learned about is the setup of the house and how the sort of structures and he goes and gets witnesses brings them back and then children as he’s getting out of bed, and so The family sues and says what’s not in the act. So you committed murder. So it’s on our atrocities. But what we learned in there is that he tells the story of how his wife got freedoms basically to, like, well, you know, we married and then you know, she was a good girl and my mother lives in the house and she had to live with her mother in law. So just imagine a space where you will your father is like, 90 and your mother is like 30. So, your mother’s 40 year, you know, whatever. So you these women are going to be because the marriage age mismatches, there’s gonna be a lot of mother in law’s wife. And you know, as we learn from things like Xenophon texts, this idea is that the older woman would train the younger woman to run a household, right kind of thing. So she’s living with her mother in law, she’s behaving herself. Mother-in-law goes out with her whenever she goes somewhere. And then she has her first child, right? So she has the first child. And at that point, he decides that it’s okay for her. She’s proven herself basically. So it’s okay for her to like, she’s become a proper gyne. She’s no longer a parthenos. So she can do stuff. And one thing she does though, is that she will be here in the sense that she goes over to a neighbor’s house at night to get candles, you know, my cat, our wax burnt out. So I needed to go get, so my wick burnt down, so I had to go to the neighbor’s house and borrow a wick or something, right. So we learned that they have this sort of mobility around the neighbourhoods, right. And then we also learn that he actually switched bedrooms with her. So we often imagine the women’s quarters on the second floor, the door locks from the outside, not from the inside. But he swapped with her because the baby didn’t live in the room with her, the baby was downstairs with with others, and she needed to be able to move back and forth to nurse at night. So he switched bedrooms with her and he moved into the upstairs room, and she moved into the downstairs room. But so what we will we get a picture of a household and this deck. So we also learned about the other women who live in the house, some of whom would have been enslaved, but some of whom were not. So one of the main characters is this old woman who used to work for the household but doesn’t anymore. And she’s now free. And she’s the one who rents the wife out.
The husband, but also we learned that the wife met Aristosphanes at a funeral with her mother, like she went with her mother in law to a funeral. And that’s where she were Aristosphanes first met and saw her behind her veil. And this is when they began their affair. So it’s a sort of tale but you sort of little, all these little details. There’s like there’s still these women who live in the houses, right, then there’s their neighbours and the people who live in their neighbourhoods, and they’re all gonna have varying levels of status and income, right. Some of the houses are two stories, some of them are only one story, right? Depending on on who you are, and where you are. Property can only land land and houses can only be owned by citizens. They can be rented, though, by people we call medics who are the resident, foreigners. And the metaclass is made up of anyone who is either an immigrant or an initial immigrant. If you’re there for something like 10 days or two weeks, you have to register in the city or you risk sale into enslavement if you’re sort of hiding out in the city. It’s made up of people who are multi generations like their their grandparents immigrated, you can’t there’s no pathway to citizenship, you’re a perennial immigrant or perpetual immigrant. And then there’s anybody who is freed from enslavement enters this class as well. So you can have people from ranging from Lipsius, who, whose father was invited to the city of Athens by terraclean, to set up a factory, he made cheap, they’re extremely wealthy, they made shields for the hoplites. And they were extremely wealthy, to, you know, a formerly a former enslaved woman from a brothel, who is just like making a life trying to make a life for herself in the port of forest. So it can sort of have this vast range of people that can exist in it. And back in the 1970s, when people first started really sort of paying attention to medics than Athens. They basically they were dismissed in the one book that had really been written on it to you dismisses medic, women’s like, we’re not gonna talk with him because they’re like an insignificant part of the population and didn’t really impact it. But then if you look at inscriptions over time, the population of medics seems to become more and more women. And this is probably because one freed slaves, the the freedom, freeing women from enslavement, because we know that women were targeted more directly in warfare for enslavement, women and girls for sale into the market. So you’re going to have more women who are enslaved versus men, you’re typically going to kill the men of military age. In a city when you take it or in battle. You’re not going to leave them alive and enslave them, but you’re going to target and collect women and pregnant women were especially valuable because they would be nursing. Right? And then you could have have a wet nurse, but then you’re gonna have them freed after they no longer need a nanny in the house or you know, for various reasons. Feel free them, they enter into the pot, so the medic population, and there seem to be more and more of them. But also importantly, the laws around citizenship and acids, which evolved over the course of the fifth and fourth centuries, explicitly target the women, men and women by trying to exclude them from marriage and exclude them from the ability to have children with citizen men. And so you don’t target laws at a population that doesn’t exist. It’s just not going to happen. So we have a lot of inscriptions, for women who sort of are on this line between like, we’re not sure if they’re free immigrants, or if they were formerly enslaved, they’re clearly no longer slaves. Because the inscriptions, there’s this group of Inscriptions called the Fiat lie inscriptions, which for decades, people have thought they were Manumission decrees. But Elizabeth Meyer argued a few years ago that they’re more likely actually dedications by people who won lawsuits by people who were trying to claim that they were not really free. So there’s a law in Athens, that a former owner or anyone actually, it doesn’t have to be your former and slaver. It can be any citizen can say that you are actually only pretending to be free, but you’re actually enslaved. And they can turn you in. And if they win the lawsuit, they get half the sale amount, from selling you into enslavement, back.
Dr G 31:28 This seems hugely problematic.
Professor Futo Kennedy 31:31 Yes. And we have evidence of that, like people who did this, like who like that’s how they made their money. And some of them are interesting because this one guy Arista guidance, he may actually be the son of a man who had made assistance. So his parents had been medics, because his mother was sold into enslavement, according to Democrates, for pretending to be a citizen. And he investigated himself tried to sell his sister to enslavement, but his other brother apparently tried to stop them. Totally disreputable. So they all these women on these inscriptions. So either they are they won their emancipation case, or they won against charges, they were pretending to be free. So they’re all in this population. And there are something like 192 Women listed on this, I can’t remember the exact there was like 172, or 192. And they all almost all of them have occupations listed next to them. And they most of them are woodworkers, textile workers, weavers, and but then there’s also women who are clearly working as part of a family business because you’ve got three people in a row listed as definitely sellers, or perfume sellers. So you have like a man, a woman and a child like this is a family sort of a small family business. Right. But my favourite thing about those inscriptions is that one scholar argued that you couldn’t possibly need that many Weaver’s and so the word Weaver must also be code for prostitute.
Dr Rad 33:02 Ah, that’s harsh.
Professor Futo Kennedy 33:06 But as I saw, I’m like, wow, so that means that you need for sex workers per citizen man. In order like if this is the correct magic, but nobody needs clothing. Because they imagined
Dr Rad 33:18 as a prostitute you don’t?
Dr G 33:22 Um, you certainly don’t need
Professor Futo Kennedy 33:25 I’ve seen as your own painting. I know they all hang out in the house naked.
Dr Rad 33:29 Exactly. Yeah.
Professor Futo Kennedy 33:31 Weavers. But it but it’s a funny thing, right? Because they all imagine this world where these wives all live in seclusion in their houses, and all they do is sit around with their slaves waiting, right? It’s Penelope. They’re all Penelope. But it takes like weeks to make a single like six foot cloth.
Dr G 33:51 Yeah, this is people who haven’t thought about the complexities of actually waving. I think
Professor Futo Kennedy 33:56 what this is the other thing too, is that we have inscriptions that list people who are seamstresses, like why do you need seamstresses, you’re all making your own clothes.
Dr Rad 34:07 There after something more fun.
Professor Futo Kennedy 34:10 We also have an industry where it’s like you’d have to make like 300 sales a year and both seem to have new rope rigging and things like the sailors aren’t taking the off season and like making ropes. Like that’s not what they’re doing. Right. So I’m pretty sure there’s industrial scale, weaving down in Piraeus and a lot of these women who maybe they were enslaved, initially, right, so we have this big population of enslaved people who are being brought in to do work. But then at some point, they’re freed and they enter into the non citizen population. And some of them are having relationships with citizens. And some of them are having relationships with other medics, and some of them are marrying other freed slaves, who are also medics, but we have evidence of all of those things going on. But marriage is not banned between citizens and non citizen women. Until like this 380. So there’s this whole period of starting in 451, where a medical woman could not give birth to a citizen child. But they were still, they were still allowed to marry, and they were still having relationships with citizens. And there are a lot of reasons why you would do this particular citizen inheritance law, you have to, you’re required by law to divide your property amongst all of your male children. So if you have two male children, but you’re like 50, and your wife dies, or you don’t like your wife anymore, as in the case of Pericles, he actually helped his wife find a new husband, the academics are curious. And then he married dysphasia, because you don’t want any more citizen children, because you already have two who are going to divide the property. Empirically this case, his two citizen sons died in the play. But he had to son by this foreign woman, who was his wife, who he petitioned the court to make a citizen and they didn’t just make his son a citizen, they made a law that basically said that if your citizen sons die, right, any child that you have, by another marriage, can be made a citizen to inherit. And so we had this whole period during the Peloponnesian War, when foreign women’s children, from marriages with citizen men were being made citizens to, you know, in the emergency situation. And then in 380, they finally just banned marriage because they’re not in this crisis of a 30 year war anymore. So it’s interesting that the law passes after not just the Peloponnesian War, but a second set of war that we call the Corinthian War, that doesn’t end until 387. And then all of a sudden, now you’ve got this law passed. So there must be this population of women who are marrying the citizens. And we always think that this is an elite practice. But the inscriptions tell us that these women are working in shops, you know, as shopkeepers, they’re working as tavern keepers, like they’re working in family businesses. So you know, this is probably happening at all levels of society. Because the other thing too, is that when the marriage ban is pulled out, and the citizenship laws ended, in the second century, we start seeing a slew of tombstones, particularly of my Legion women. So they’re, they’re in tune with them as my leader, but they’re married to a senior. So like it starts happening immediately after the law was repealed. So they’re having all this stuff having just all this interaction, they’re out in the shops, they’re working in temples, they’re working as your wet nurses, we have these wonderful stories of citizen men like in Athens, there’s a whole slew of tombs that have the word tip day on them. These are citizen people who are making tombs for the woman who was their witness who dies. Right? We have one story of a guy who is a citizen, man, wealthy, he was in the highest tax bracket, his old wet nurse, she had been fried, she got married her husband and died. So she had her move back in the house with a family. Right. So sort of all these sort of different relationships, we imagine these elite sort of secluded citizen women and and then or as Pomeroy put it, you know, goddesses, wives, slaves and horrors. But you know, really, the slaves and horrors are sort of the same category. And in the public imagination, anybody who’s not a married woman is like, sort of over here. But we have this sort of integrated into all walks of life, in the city and into the fabric of the economy, whether it’s as property in the case of the enslaved women, or as actual workers in the economy, and part of the people who actually make the economy run in assets, because obviously, your citizen wife is not out selling you perfume, but you need a woman to sell your wife for fuel. Because you can’t go buy it from that
Dr Rad 38:40 damn straight you do. So you’ve highlighted really well, I think, in your work, and in that outline, that when you go looking for them, there are these nuances and women everywhere. And there’s just such a huge diversity of experience, you know, in terms in terms of the class that they might be sent to occupy in terms of whether they were wealthy or whether they were poor, whether they had really tight connections to the citizen body or not. But regardless of where they were, as these non citizen people as these metrics, they were still really vulnerable, weren’t they?
Professor Futo Kennedy 39:16 Yeah, so, I mean, obviously, they’re, you know, there are laws of start getting targeted at them. Starting around the four 451 is like the most famous, which is the citizenship loss hair, please. The irony being that he had to have a trial by a foreign woman made US citizen. But that’s the law that basically said that to be a citizen. You have to have to citizen parents. Now, some people have imagined, Robin Osborn wrote on this that when this happened, citizen women’s lives got better, because they were more valuable, but in fact, they probably got worse, because they were now more valuable. You don’t have DNA testing. How do you prove a child as yours? Well, you don’t let your wife talk to any man. Ever. Good. to relatives. So you have, you have these laws, and then you have the laws relaxed at the beginning of the Peloponnesian War is relaxed again, later on. Some people think that this law that happened after the Sicilian disaster in 411 was actually a law allowing bigamy, but it’s actually just allowing, basically seems to be the case where it’s just allowing any person who has a child, regardless of whether the person is a citizen or not, is gets to be the act of one citizen parent. Because then in 404, they sort of reinforced the law. And then you have the abandoned marriage is not till 380. So what seems to be happening this century, there seems to be some laxity about the laws. And we don’t have a lot of evidence. One of the biggest problems is we don’t have any courtroom documents in the courtroom speeches from the fifth century, other than like, on the mysteries from and often, and that’s like at the tail end of the fifth century. So we don’t have sort of the beef of that period. So there’s not a lot of evidence for what these women were doing. Most of the women that we see who are medics are actually being represented on the tragic stage. And you see different types of women represented there from the heroic daughter of Hera Cleves who’s going to sacrifice herself to save the city of Athens from like, during the Peloponnesian War period, to people like Chandramukhi, who’s enslaved. So there’s a sort of Oh, very, Matthias probably the most famous medic onstage in Athens out there, killing everybody. But she, but what’s interesting about the play that she’s invited to Athens, right to come and help the king, at this period at the beginning of the Peloponnesian War, when the law is being relaxed,
and he or she is being brought in to help. So it’s a very strange thing. But then starting in the fourth century, things seem to be getting more draconian, like that’s when the marriage restrictions are passed. And we see a lot of prosecutions and we have three laws on the books, they variously target medics or the enslaved. So there’s a law, that if you don’t register, as a medic, and you’re reported, you can be taken into custody and sold into enslavement. So you have to register, you have to law those people who are pretending they are pretending to be free, but aren’t really. And then you have the one for one away in Slate. So these are three laws that are used, basically to police the population, and to keep them in check. And so you have a these laws are being more highly enforced. We see in court speeches, a lot of accusations of this kind of thing against women, we see citizen women being very precarious as well, because they can’t prove who their father was, or they can’t prove they have no brothers, they have no father, they can’t prove who they are. Then when this inheritance is stripped from them, it’s almost always strict on the grounds that they’re not really a citizen. And so what’s happening to them? Are they being sold into enslavement, right, for pretending to be a citizen. So you have all these lots of targets. And I think what’s actually happening is that, because the inscriptions seem to pick up, we have a lot more tombstones for foreign women. In the fourth centuries, I think we actually have a larger population of foreign women in the city. And maybe that’s because Athens is the major economic hub of that part of the GN at this time. And so you have a lot of women, we know women coming from Ventura, we have women coming from Korea, we have women coming from mostly coming from my Letus. And so here we have generations of people coming starting the fifth century, some are refugees. So you have refugee families coming, but then also, my Letus is slowly losing its port. It had three ports when the city was founded in the seventh century. By the time you get to the Roman period, it’s like half a port left, because it’s like silting up from the river. And so its economy seems to be in shambles at various points. And of course, there’s always threats of war from over there. So we have this influx of population. So by the time we get to the second century, we have a huge explosion of my Legion, women who are getting 45 of them who are getting married to Athenian citizens, and like over 400 inscriptions for my Legion women. So I think as the population became more women, and we probably have the population is more free freed women are entering into the population. And so as your medic population becomes less wealthy people being invited into the city to support the economy and more free free women and migrant women coming for work, the laws get more restrictive. And so we dcci inscriptions are almost all from the fourth century. There are over 400 of them extant, but it was a much larger, we’re not exactly sure how we got this inscription. But it may have been that in the 320s the actual dedications themselves were melted down, and so they re recorded the inscriptions, but we’re missing hundreds of them. So there are probably 1000 You know, hundreds, as many as 1000 of these inscribed dedications, that means a lot of court prosecutions of these people. And if our percentage, just in those 460 So are it’s about 30% women. So you know, what’s the tipping point when I don’t think there are too many women in the space, right? Usually it’s one if there’s one woman in the space or too many away, you’re scooting all the men from the conversation.
Dr G 45:13 I think this leads us really nicely to like the wrap up question, actually, because we’ve talked a lot about how this population that sort of outside the citizenship is having real consequences for how Athens tries to understand itself and how it tries to define itself. And thinking about minority representation within that, or perhaps the least represented in particular ways is the study of how poverty is operating. In a in a big city like this, where we’ve got quite a diverse population, we’ve got lots of people coming in, it’s clearly an economic hub, we’ve got a really large non citizen population sometimes being targeted by legislation, sometimes quite severely over long periods of time. How is poverty coming through in the evidence for us in this as well?
Professor Futo Kennedy 46:00 Yeah, so poverty is actually really hard to study. Because one, there’s like, sort of varying definitions of what poverty is. And the other thing is, is that, how do you identify it? How do you see it? Right? So Claire, Taylor has done a lot of work on this. She recently has been doing more work on gender and poverty. So when it came time, she’s reading the cultural history of poverty. And she’s like, Rebecca, can you write the chapter about women in poverty, but so she so she, she asked me to write it. So it was nice, I could go back and review a lot of the evidence, especially looking at it sort of, in the long span of time, like all the way from the earliest representations of women and poverty in Hesiod, all the way up into the Roman period with Christian texts and Jewish texts and, and et cetera. So that was kind of nice. But the big problem is, how do you how do you do it? So Claire’s Taylor, and then let you catch that also does poverty in Athens, they sort of divided poverty into two sort of types of poverty. So there’s, there’s actual, you know, economic poverty, right? From the lack of anything, are we talking about? Penry is sort of like completely, devastatingly poor no money? Or is poverty sort of like below a subsistence level or below, right? So economic poverty can have a wide range of definitions. But you know, you sort of situate it like, we can think about an Athens or, generally in I think Athens, in particular, I don’t want to speak to like the whole of the ancient world. But you know, there is a negative discourse around work for women in sort of all of our ancient texts, this idea of women who work as somehow inferior, of course, this because this is being written by elite men, for the most part. So I don’t think though people, women who are working thought of themselves as lesser for their spouses or their neighbours, and all the people who live with them in the communities, but there is a negative stigma in a lot of our sources attached to work in the Athenian sources working is actually used as evidence in court that you’re a foreign. So that gives you that sort of idea that the idea that you’re a citizen woman, and you work, that’s bad if you’re a foreign woman and work that’s expected. Right. So we’re How do you find poverty when you have this stigma against work? Can you say that every working woman is therefore technically in economic poverty, because she has to work? I mean, that’s a discourse we have in the modern world as well, you know, as well, especially like when I was growing up in the 70s. I was born in 74. And my mom went to work in like when I started kindergarten in 79. But it was because we were poor. Right? Like, the idea of the middle class ideal, from the 1950s. And stuff is that you only your wife only worked if she had to, you didn’t work if you didn’t have to. So we still have this discourse. I think a lot of places were working women are working because they’re poor. I’m not sure if you can make that equation, though, with foreign population to the city where they have no choice, but to work, right. So there’s ideals and there’s reality. So that’s a little difficult to actually say, and they’re even scientists trying to identify malnutrition, in bones, in art and bio archaeology. But the problem is, is that lacking certain nutrients, it could just be a factor of regional diet, it can actually be a factor of gender, because we do know that in some places, women were given different food portions. In festivals in the city, meat is distributed during a successful well, sometimes you brought the meat home to share with your family, but other times you just ate in the public spaces with your friends. And you didn’t show me so women aren’t getting lots of meat, right? In their diet. So you can’t it’s really hard to tell if you even if you have the right bones left to do the analysis. It’s hard to tell if your lack of vitamin C is because of poverty or if it’s because of diet or if it’s because of environment. Right? We all know that if you’re not outside of the Sun enough vitamin D can be a problem, right? So again, Then the difficulty of actually finding it on the level of the body is even impossible in some cases. But the other type of poverty that Claire and Lucia and others talk about is, and this is also in, in the sociology of poverty. Scholarship in the modern world is social poverty. And here women, especially, such are situated, because their very existence is sort of dependent on a social network. They don’t have that you’re only ever one step away from losing your citizenship if you have it from being caught and sold. If you are free woman without proper protection, like one of the cases that we know of, from an Athenian context is a woman named Sophia. Again, Arista Guyton, this sort of like total jerk. He returns, it’s like the return of the repressed, you can not repress it with the guy.
But he borrowed money from her. So she had a truck that she lent him, that’s actually quite a lot of money. The medic tax for for an independent woman is six ovals per year. But she had a drama, which, if you’re a female musician, you can get paid as a as a last player, you can make four ovals a night, or if you do a women’s festival, or you do a funeral or something, you can make four ovals per performance. So eight drama is not a ridiculous sum of money. It is that’s your savings rate. For a year, you’re probably living pretty poor. But she lent it to him along the cloak. Whether she willing to lend it to him or not, we don’t know. But she tried to get it back from him. And that’s when he reported her to the to the official saying she’s actually a runaway slave.
Dr Rad 51:44 Dude, let it do so.
Professor Futo Kennedy 51:48 Fortunately for her, though, her sponsor, so every medical city has to have a sponsor, her sponsor stood up for her. And the official at the medic office where you pay your fees that no she paid I have right here listed as having paid her. So you know, we know there are people out there trying to do that. So you’re always sort of like always one step away, maybe from enslavement. One of the other problems too, is that, you know, since you can’t even tell poverty in the bones. How do you know someone died from starvation, you can’t always can’t tell. There’s a new cemetery that was discovered about six years ago. But anyway, they found 1000s of skeletons, no inscriptions. So this is probably not a wealthy, or even middling class grave. And they are slowly starting to publish the results. So hopefully, we’ll find something in there may potentially, that can help us if we can see patterns over large numbers of bodies, or how nutrition shows up or malnutrition shows up, maybe we can start to say something. But it’s even hard to gender bones. Sometimes if you don’t have the right bones if you don’t have the hips. And if the woman never had children, the hips might not have slid. Like, there’s just all these sorts of different ways that you can’t tell from a skeleton.
Dr Rad 53:09 Right, the hips don’t lie, they don’t lie. They don’t lie at all.
Professor Futo Kennedy 53:14 But yeah, so poverty can be hard to find. But social poverty is probably endemic in the population of women, not just in Athens, but it’s also you see it in the Roman world. In Christian and Jewish texts, there’s a specific concern for widows in the knowledge that once that husband dies, like, because the marriages are so mismatched and age, typically, you’re going to have widows, lots of widows. And when you’re in a world where you know, the Greek mainland Greeks, and the I and the islands, they’re like it dwarfs, yours, right? Like the entirety of the fifth century is a history of war, and most of the fourth century, so a lot of death, a lot of widows a lot of orphans. And love, the Athenians never did anything about this. We do have inscriptions from other places in the Greek world, where there’s like a after a specific war has ended, particularly with the wives of Roman emperors. We see inscriptions from some Greek cities, where they have set up a fund for orphans, or things like that. So there’s a recognition of of destitution and precarity. For these people, and in Jewish contexts. It’s what we call relative poverty. But the idea is that the widow and the orphan should be maintained by the community at the level that they were before the death of the father or the husband or whatever. So they understand the concept of poverty, right. I think this is actually what’s been one of the big problems in poverty studies is they don’t focus in on things like gender, because they’re more concerned. And this goes back to Peter Brown, and his work on Late Antiquity is identifying a class of people called the poor. That’s just not real. It’s a category that someone’s made up Poverty can be all over the place. So this is one of the big problems, though it’s hard to find them. But we can can’t say that working women are all poor. But we can say that there’s a social ideal that women who aren’t poor don’t work. So that like for women work, and poor women work, but nobody else. We have a text, another speech from the fourth century, that actually, it’s about events in the fifth century, where the guy is saying that no, I’m not. My father was a citizen, my mother’s not foreign. We were poor, because my father had been captured in war. And so she sold ribbons, and fled herself out as a wet nurse. And that’s not because she’s not a citizen, it’s because my father was a war prisoner, and we were broke, and I was a kid. So we had to work for that. So there, we do have that kind of evidence. But social poverty, I think, is endemic to women in a way that it just isn’t when you cannot own property, right. You can’t own land, you can’t own house, and you can’t inherit, you have restrictions on inheritance, then you’re going to have social poverty. Romans can alleviate this by the fact that women can actually own stuff, and inheriting
Dr Rad 56:12 why I chose to study the Romans over the Greeks because I think, looking at the Athenian context, in particular, I would suffer night terrors from how vulnerable so many people in that society were. Yeah,
Professor Futo Kennedy 56:24 and that’s our model for modern democracy, right?
Dr Rad 56:28 That’s idealic.
Professor Futo Kennedy 56:30 I mean, there’s a whole slew of I’m doing a new project right now, where I’m basically courting every in tune inscription I can find in the Greek language between like 600 and BCE and 400 CE, that has a an ethnic marker on it. So suggesting that the person is buried somewhere where they didn’t come from, who’s a woman, and then I’m going to identify other zones for analysis. Rhodes has hundreds of these things. So there’s something going on at Rhodes. But you know, of course, in the period, when these inscriptions kick up, this is when they were sort of favoured status by the Romans. And so the lawsuit sort of lost its status as a port and Rosa kicked up. But my Venus is again, also a fascinating place, because not only do we have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of documents of my legions leaving going to Athens. We also have inscription grants, where they’re giving out citizenship, like candy. Especially in the second century, there was a whole wall of citizenship grants, but they’re giving them out to Korean mercenaries, in particular, because they’re worried about the solutions coming from one end. And so they settled these mercenaries there, but they brought their wives and their children, people often think mercenaries travel alone, but these ones travelled with their whole families. But there are also women on there who are listed by themselves independent. So what’s going on there like are these foreign women who are married to citizens, so they’re being given citizens are these children of a citizen who are now being given citizenship? So there are other places to study this that might make it less sort of zero sum game, like app. But if you’re giving citizenship to women, that’s a different level of social structure for women that you just don’t see an athlete’s because we don’t even know. If you’re a medic, and your husband is given citizenship. There’s a raging debate amongst like the seven of us who do this work. Whether or not the wives got citizen status, permission, or whether they had temporary citizenship that ended when your spouse dies. We know that the citizenship grants often read that the man and his children, right, so the wife can make citizens,
Dr G 58:43 which can’t be one.
Professor Futo Kennedy 58:44 But we don’t know that right? Because there’s some evidence that suggests that, like what do you do with a guy like ERISA guidance, whose father seems to have been a citizen, and died in debtors prison, and it was a guy who is a citizen and his brother’s a citizen, but his mother was sold for failure to register as a medic. So did she did he get citizen the husband get citizenship? She thought she has citizenship. And then when he died, she lost it. And then why doesn’t the doctor has to this is first a guy who can sell his sister, like, like so. So there’s the evidence is super confusing. We just don’t know. Josh Rosen, who’s one of the people who like does really good work on laws and medics in the city is trying to study the case of there’s a famous banker named for Meo in Athens, who was made a citizen he had been a slave. But he married those the wife of his former owner who had when he died, he willed his wife to Formula triangle. Well, part of is that it’s a banking family and so banks are kept in the family. Right? And but Apollo, Doris, the guy who famously prosecuted the IRA, he’s the Elder son, and he was born before citizenship was granted. And the younger son passively was born
Dr Rad 1:00:06 with citizenship. That’s kind of a rivalry.
Professor Futo Kennedy 1:00:09 Well, they decided to divide these pathways kept the bank out the bank, under formulas, like formula was his guardian. And he’s like in passes with it and apologise to the furniture store, and apparently the furniture, he didn’t manage it well, and it’s the wind. So he spent all his life like suing people in the court. Because of course, it may IRA in this famous case, if she loses, he gets money from selling her. She’s like 65 At this point, like the girl, but he sued his stepfather there like multiple cases against his stepfather for Bo, to the point where he lost so badly that he was prevented by Athenian law from suing his stepfather again, but those cases are super interesting because he goes from my mother was seduced by the sky to my mother helped plan my father’s murder like so but we don’t know what her status is. And so Josh is trying to figure this out and trying to sort of to do some more detailed dive because there’s like seven speeches to against formula, but then Apollo doors when he can’t do formula anymore, starts doing all his, like friends. And so he’s trying to figure this out, because he don’t know like, like, could these women keep citizenship? We don’t even know that, like we don’t even know at a basic level.
Dr Rad 1:01:23 Because a lot of pressure on relationships, you know, if your citizenship is dependent upon that guy, keep breathing every day. And this
Professor Futo Kennedy 1:01:31 is why this concept of social poverty is so important for us to keep on the radar. Because you are literally one death away, right? Or, or divorce away from not even having citizenship anymore. If you had it to begin with.
Dr Rad 1:01:47 Like, it sounds it I can absolutely terrifying thrill ride through life.
Professor Futo Kennedy 1:01:51 I always try to tell people like, you know, the scene in such a scene, like some people say, like senior women has the worst of any women in history. And I’m like, I would I would hate to go that far. I would never say that. But it’s hard for me to say they had a good, but who knows, like right lived experience is so hard to find,
Dr Rad 1:02:06 particularly in a sort of a society where most of the material is in the hands of men, and particularly a certain class of men.
Professor Futo Kennedy 1:02:15 And inscriptions can tell us names and maybe tell us, you know, how they identified themselves? Did they identify themselves, or how they were identified on the team? Like, you don’t even need to make your own tomb? Right? But did you identify as a wife? Did you identify as a public key? Did you identify as my Legion? Did you identify as you know, as a person else? Or were you identified as these things? That’s still pretty miniscule evidence for for the richness of life. And then of course, like Roman inscriptions, Roman tombs are like so much more forthcoming. Greek tomb standards are like, we don’t even care how old you were, we don’t just name date and serial number. It’s like, the bare minimum information. Like if you get a tomb that has a husband and a father listed, it’s like goldmine.
Dr G 1:03:00 We’ve got all the info, guys, I think it’s fascinating, because it does make me think about the way in which what we don’t know about the way women were relating with each other. Because it sounds like when we’re thinking about ancient Athens, that actually there’s probably not a balanced population. It sounds to me like having talked about it with you that maybe there are more women just generally speaking, as part of that population living in that city, citizen or otherwise. And potentially, there’s a whole culture of women’s connection with each other that we just haven’t been able to trace very effectively. Yeah. Because
Professor Futo Kennedy 1:03:35 I mean, what’s our evidence, right, just before a zoo, sigh or something like, can you take these comic representations of what women get up to when they’re alone together? Can you take that as evidence? I think you could take it as evidence that they did get up to stuff together, that they weren’t allowed to get together. Again, I think this is one of the reasons why I push back so hard on all the scholars who basically like again, I understand like wanting to talk about sex work in the ancient world and and destigmatize it, but they’re not actually talking about sex work. They’re just identifying people as prostitutes, which is a very different thing. Sometimes we’re able to actually like what can you say from a comic play about the life of a sex worker in the city? Right. But we, you know, my spouse wrote an article on our last players, which have often been conflated with with sex work, and of course, a free, our player could choose to do sex work as well. And enslaved aulos player has no choice is her owner wants to rent her out for sex he had, she had no choice, but she’s more valuable as an aulos player. She makes like three times the amount of money for her owner or for herself as playing the outlaws. But we know that they had women only gatherings. Right? And so you know, one of the texts that tells us this is Plato’s Symposium, actually, people forget, like ignore this like you have to find your tiny little tiny tidbits. There’s like these like three lines or something where they are trying to decide what to do after the outlaws player has played, for the pouring of the every symposium has to have an outlet player for the ritual of initiating the foreign the wine. And then they say, well, let’s send her to the ladies. So the ladies can listen to the player and we’ll get to talking. Like we’re not we’re not going to be a music night for us. Tonight is going to be a, an intellectual discussion night. So let’s send her to the ladies. Well, who are these ladies? Did they bring their wives with them? And the women are hanging out together? Is it the neighbour ladies? Is it just the women of the household? We don’t know. But they’re clearly thinking of a gathering of women. But also we have these base paintings, which everybody says, Oh, these are hetaira. Again, this sort of words that has made meaning of women together at symposia. And I said yes, I argued. Yeah, they aren’t a hetaira, but they’re like women, these are rich women. Because one of the most important bases it has these two women on the top, they’re playing kottabos, right, the game where you throw your refuse into a cup net, positive with a cup into a spittoon. And they’re gazing down at the the call off boy at the bottom. And they’re calling him call off. It’s not. Yeah, it’s not prostitutes, like, you know, core designs like, these are probably rich women like, this is a vase that they have. It’s from a woman’s tomb and the Etruscan context. But I argued that no, this is actually like rich women had this lifestyle, too. They got together with their friends, and they drink too. And we have evidence of women’s drinking rituals. And of course, women went to tombs together to do service to the dead, in lots of different cities. We have a lot of evidence for this to Nagra being one that there’s a lot of evidence for this. But if this is a ritual that women are supposed to perform regularly, and they’re going out together to the tombs, and they have to pour libations. And they have to do these things. And they’re probably, you know, they have to go out with a day trip. So these are groups of women going places together, and doing rituals. So there is a little pieces of evidence all over for like the lives that women had. And these inscriptions, like especially things like CCLI inscriptions, we can imagine, well, they were prosecuted in court. But we also could imagine they had jobs that they were probably proud of, because this is what they chose to put on the inscription. They chose to say I’m a lever, right? I am a seamstress. I’m a sesame seed seller, right? It’s not just an identifier. So people know who they are, but also something that they’ve chosen as a label for themselves. So there are places for us to build and imagine what their lives might have been like, outside of the sort of gaze of elite men. But oftentimes, you have to read against the evidence, or you have to read through the evidence, like these women that Demosthenes is telling us that it was the guy who is attacking, he’s sympathetic to them. But is he correctly representing their situation? Well, who knows if that was really Zobia’s life, but he has to create a plausible situation, that the members of the jury who are not going to be rich dudes, right? The members of the jury has to think that this is plausible. So we can at least say that it is in the realm of possibility that people lived, had these experiences and lived these lives. So that’s, I think, the best we can do, but I think it’s a lot more than people think it is. Yeah.
Dr Rad 1:08:22 Yeah. Really,
Dr G 1:08:24 I want to thank you so much for your time. This has been a really fascinating conversation and delving into the complexities of this kind of stuff has been fantastic. So thank you so much for joining us.
Professor Futo Kennedy 1:08:35 Well, thanks so much for having me on. It’s really great. I’m glad we can make it worked out
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 126 – How to Win Land and Influence Ardea
Jun 16, 2022
In around 443 BCE Rome is navigating its relationships with its neighbours. Last time we caught up with Rome they became involved in the affairs of the nearby city of Ardea. The conflict seems to have centred around a very attractive plebeian woman whose name has not been recorded in the annals of history. It’s this meddling in Ardea which sets the scene for 442 BCE…
Episode 126 – How to Win Land and Influence Ardea
The challenges of 442 BCE
The consuls of 443 had such a great year that the incoming consuls for 442 BCE knew they had a lot to live up to. There’s a sense that the successes over Ardea were substantial but there are mixed feelings about how this all come about….
The complexity lies in the nature of the history of conflict with Ardea. The Romans sense that they have actually made some mistakes in how they have dealt with Ardea and the Rutilian people. The Rutilians are the people of this region and Ardea is their capital.
In order to determine how best to proceed they opt to form the triumviri coloniae deducendae “the group of three men for the commission of the settlement”. Their task to solve the problem of land allotment in relation to Ardea. A colony might just solve their concerns, but what should that colony look like? We explore the details!
Ardea, the central settlement of the Rutilians was south of Rome.
Rome and 441 BCE
It’s a brand new year and it’s time for some games, apparently. There are rumours that the decemvirs had promised the people a set of games, and it now seems to have fallen to the tribune of the plebs, Poetilius to get this event off the ground.
Beyond the issue of games at Rome, there’s some interesting rumblings far to the south of Italy in Magna Graecia that might also become important later on.
Polychromatic terracotta head of a woman with brown hair and pale skin. From Taranto (Magna Graecia) end of 4th century BCE. Antikenmuseum Basel und Sammlung Ludwig, Inv. Kuhn 35. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Our Players
The Consuls
442 BCE
Marcus Fabius Q. f. M. n. Vibulanus
Postumus Aebutius – f. – n. Helva Cornicen
441 BCE
Gaius Furius – f. – n. Pacilus Fusus
Manius (or Marcus) Papirius – f. – n. Crassus
The triumviri coloniae deducendae
Agrippa Menenius (Lanatus)
Titus Cloelius Siculus
Marcus Aebutius Helva
Tribune of the Plebs
Poetilius
Sources
Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.34-5
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.11-12.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Wall painting – mistress and three maids – Herculaneum (insula orientalis II – palaestra – room III) – Napoli MAN 9022. While a much later artefact than the period this episode covers, this depiction of women helps reflect the world explored when it comes to women. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Automated Transcript
Provided by Otter AI
Dr Rad 0:01 Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians where we are tracing the journey of Rome and from the founding of this city. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:13 And I am Dr. G. And boy, what a time we’re in Roman history. It’s the early republic. People are everywhere. Armies are in places, and the Romans they’re a little bit all over the shop as well.
Dr Rad 0:28 They are, we are in around 443 BCE at the moment. And to give you a bit of a recap of what happened last episode, well, quite frankly, would not have been out of place on Keeping Up With The Kardashians. Dr. G.
Dr G 0:42 Well, you know, when you’re a patrician, and you really like a girl, she has to be hot, doesn’t she?
Dr Rad 0:48 Oh if she’s a plebeian, hell yes. She has to be hot. I mean, what else does she bring into the relationship?
Dr G 0:53 Ouch.
Dr Rad 0:56 So we had this whole situation where Rome got involved in a civil conflict that had broken out in the nearby area of DIA. And it was between a patrician group and a probation group. And it is really interesting that even though our day out is seen as being culturally quite different to the Romans. There’s apparently still patricians and plebeians running around…
Dr G 1:20 Look, I’m not going to lie. I don’t believe Livy I don’t, I don’t think there’s social –
Dr Rad 1:25 Now you mentioned it. God!
Dr G 1:27 I don’t think their social structure is necessarily going to resemble that of the Romans at this point in time. We know that they come from a different language group.
Dr Rad 1:34 Yes.
Dr G 1:35 They seem pretty independent, and they certainly don’t want Rome involved. What are the chances that their whole society is structured on the same premise as patricians and plebeians, that Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus really want us to believe other is the way that the Romans operated in this very early period of the Republic?
Dr Rad 1:53 I’ll tell you why. Because Rome is the best and therefore everything they have everyone else wants. Anyway, so Rome ended up getting involved in this conflict over a very hot plebeian girl, which spilled out into civil war. Seems to happen an unnatural amount of times in the ancient world. And that ended up being really good for the Romans, actually.
Dr G 2:16 It did.
Dr Rad 2:17 Yeah.
Dr G 2:17 Yeah. The consul of 443, Geganius, he manages to secure a triumph out of that.
Dr Rad 2:23 Yup.
Dr G 2:23 Incredible stuff, really.
Dr Rad 2:24 It is it is.
Dr G 2:25 And he has a girl to thank and her name has not been recorded. And frankly, that’s not good enough.
Dr Rad 2:29 You know what you’re right. And also, back at home, things had been peaceful domestically, with consuls in charge. Yes. And apparently a census. Yes, was the official position of sense or being created because quite frankly, it’s just too much paperwork for the consuls and are interested. They’re not down for it. The Romans are living in exciting time. I know. So that was our quick recap of 443 BCE. Now, Dr. G, I’m going to take you into 442. All right, Dr. J. So I know that you’re going to be very attached to Libby today because Dionysius does not exist.
Dr G 3:09 Oh, yes. deines is a holocaust. This is sadly missing for 442 BC. But I’m happy to give you what little I have been able to throw together by the way of other material
Dr Rad 3:20 that I really appreciate yet.
Dr G 3:24 So I start with Bratton, yes, he and his co author created an E two volume, which then became a three volume set of magistrates of the Republic. And this is a great text, really, I mean, such good work and anyway, we have the consuls. Marcus Fabius, son of Quintus son, grandson of Marcus, Vibulanus, a patrician
Dr Rad 3:52 Of course. He’s a Fabian,
Dr G 3:54 and then post rumours, a beauteous father unknown grandfather unknown over corny can
Dr Rad 4:02 That’s an unusual last couple of names.
Dr G 4:05 It is. Yeah, the whole thing is a little bit unusual. And booty is how via corny can is also a patrician. But corny can just makes me think of corns and I’m sorry, but I don’t really want my political leaders to have skin conditions like that.
Dr Rad 4:22 Well, okay. So this pair is also the pair that is in living, and they know that they’re coming into a difficult position because the year before with Ganey is getting a tryout for so good. Yeah. Really good. And quick, just capital owners. I mean, to be honest, it doesn’t seem like he actually does a lot. But everybody just loves him to pieces by this stage. Because he’s older. He’s been around the block a few times. They all know who he is. So they’re following a class
Dr G 4:52 act. Yeah. And he’s one of those silver fox consuls. Yeah.
Dr Rad 4:56 And they know that this therefore means that they’ve got a lot to To try and live up to because 443 had been a pretty goddamn good year as far as everyone was concerned in Rome. And also because not just how the consuls have personally conducted themselves, but the shame of that decision that had been made to steal the US territory when most vulnerable, we’re just going to take it. Yeah, that stain has somewhat been lifted by the fact that the Romans had managed to successfully help them out with their civil war.
Dr G 5:30 I’m interested that Rome felt a sense of shame. I mean, it seems so unusual and out of keeping with how Rome conducts itself in the future. But we’ll leave that for now. It’s interesting that once once upon a time, a bit like Darth Vader once had a soul.
Dr Rad 5:45 Well, you know, look, if I’m being very cynical, Dr. G, which, you know, is someone like me. I feel like this really is part of the class conflict story, because the people made that decision. When dad came to room with this border dispute issue. Seems like years ago now. It had been the people that had made that decision. Yeah, the wetlands should be out. Yeah, the patricians slash senators who are however you want to designate them. They’ve never been on board. With doing that they thought it was dishonourable, because it wasn’t what they were asked. They were asked to settle a border dispute, not hey, do you want this land?
Dr G 6:27 But what if those borders were Roman?
Dr Rad 6:30 Well, exactly. And so I feel like this is just a constant dig at how the people don’t make good political decisions.
Dr G 6:40 Yes. And I think this is part of the way that we can tell that we’re in a very rhetorical presentation of history. Yes. And this is something that historians are always aware of is that and maybe Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Livi, are aware of this to a certain extent, as well. But historians are constructing a narrative. Yeah, from the available evidence. There are some things which might be considered facts. But not everything is effect. Yeah. And sometimes facts are only relevant to the extent to which they help you understand what might be going on somewhere. And you have to pick and choose, there are always too many things happening, or conversely, as a historian, not enough records. Yeah, to be sure. So you’ve either got too much information, and you have to decide what you leave out. Well, you don’t have enough information. And you’ve got to try and fill in the gaps. And live in dinosaurs of how it can ask us I’m very much trying to fill in gaps,
Dr Rad 7:35 massively. I mean, earlier and public, I don’t know what they use. I mean, I do, but I don’t think there’s sources would have been very detailed.
Dr G 7:42 The trouble is that they’re using the fastI. So they’re using controller lists, which is fine and dandy. And it’s something that has existed that the Romans have looked after. And they’re like, these are our lists. And the Romans love lists. We’ve seen this before. Hello, censorship. But they’re also relying on some really early historiography that has been written by others, which unfortunately for us now no longer survives. Yeah, as far as we’re aware, unless somebody turns up an amazing treasure. We still hold out hope always
Unknown Speaker 8:14 find it. Very interesting.
Dr G 8:18 So we’ve got Aeneas as an early source Fabius picked or as an earlier source, leukemias, Mesa who came up a couple of episodes ago is an important source as well for these guys. So we do know that there are other writers who have written histories previous to live in Dionysius, but how much they’ve got to add and where they’re getting their material from? It’s also open question.
Dr Rad 8:40 Absolutely. So essentially, these new consuls, no, they want to make an impression. They don’t want to be overshadowed by this dynamic duo. This, you know, bad boys, a lot of them are really bad boys. Too good. To be honest. They don’t want to be overshadowed by this
Dr G 8:56 Batman and Robin, these two who did everything right in their consulship. Absolutely.
Dr Rad 9:01 So they decide, look, we’ve somewhat atoned for what happened with our data? A couple of years ago, however, let’s push that further. Oh, I have some details. Okay. All right. So the idea of pushing it further, obviously would be that this would truly force everyone to forget that Rome ever made a bad decision.
Dr G 9:22 We can wipe the slate clean and begin again. Yeah, I’m assuming correct me if I’m wrong, that you’re referring to the trim weary colon a colon nine, a De qu Dindi.
Dr Rad 9:37 Like I wasn’t gonna put it like that. Yes, that is what I’m talking about.
Dr G 9:41 This is the group of three men brought together basically for the commission of the settlement. So trying to figure out the land in respect to our day are you once and for
Dr Rad 9:55 all? Absolutely. So they forced through a decree that as The population of our day had been completely decimated by what had just happened that bizarre private conflict that started a civil war over a marriage, that Rome would therefore be setting up a colony in our data. Oh,
Dr G 10:16 yeah, I don’t think this solves their shame issue at all.
Dr Rad 10:20 Wait, but wait, there is a very clever aspect to this. So obviously, they’re going to need people to enrol in the colony, because they don’t want our data to fall prey to the moleskin. So as we highlighted in the previous episode, very close to our data, and an enemy of Rome. So they don’t want that happening. And our data used to be on good terms with room they want to maintain that all that sort of thing. So they set up the decree in this very particular way. So that it seems as though what they’re doing is introducing something new, rather than overturning a decision made by the people, and assisted by the tribune of the plebs, I suppose, like, they don’t want to be seen that they’re going back on the decision of the people. Okay. But the senators privately get together. And that’s never a good sign. But actually, in this case, it is they are actually for once doing something good, it’s kind of shocking. So they decided that they’re going to enrol as many colonists as they possibly can. Who are people from this culture, like from the culture associated with idea are going to be the colonists? Okay,
Dr G 11:32 Romans, they’re going to give a dance back their land, in creating in our day and colony, yeah, populated by our dance.
Dr Rad 11:42 Yeah, so the only land that will be distributed to colonists will be the land that the Romans took, in this bad judgement, this border land area. So that’s the land that they’re splitting up amongst colonists. And they are not going to give any Roman person any of this land until all the they call them reptilians in this sense, but that that’s just referring to the people from this culture ideas, the capital for these particular people. Those are the people who are going to be prioritised. So it’s a very sneaky way of essentially handing the land back to the people of idea.
Dr G 12:21 So does this mean that our day from this point onwards is going to be technically classified as a Roman colony? Whilst being mostly populated by its native people? Yes. In her restaurant it is.
Dr Rad 12:34 And this is when those triangles that you were talking about the three men of course, right is they are appointed to help set up this colony. Yeah, and I have some names, but I suspect that this might be something that you also have.
Dr G 12:49 Well, I mean, that would be ideal, I suppose.
Dr Rad 12:53 Okay, so they are Agrippa Menenius, Titus Cloelius Siculus, Marcus Aebutius Helva.
Dr G 13:02 Hmm. Aebutius Helva sounds a little bit familiar.
Dr Rad 13:07 A lot of those names, I think sounds really like Menenius. Again, is, you know, is a name that we have heard before. So these are all people whose names we’ve we’ve heard before. And they’re going to be in a difficult situation, because they have to tread lightly, okay, in this situation, because they don’t want to be upsetting the plebeians in any way in terms of this whole land issue, because the people had decided that they wanted to take this land for themselves. And apparently, the politicians are also unimpressed that these other men that were chosen, I kind of get the impression that they’re just not schmoozing as much as they should be or something. But they feel like they haven’t somehow earned anyone’s good graces. I don’t really know what he’s trying to get out with this. But they’re basically not very popular with anybody.
Dr G 14:01 Okay, this is really interesting. I mean, I don’t have much to add to the names or the politics that’s going on here. Yes. What I will say is that having very little information, I spent time looking into what what does this tree Onvia group do? Yeah, actually. And so they’re created by a senatorial resolution, apparently. Yeah. So the fact that people within the patrician class seem to be upset about the choices seems a bit odd.
Dr Rad 14:30 Well, I don’t know if they’re upset with a choice at first, or whether it’s once their choice. Maybe it’s not really very clear, but definitely I agree with you that they are set up by Senators, yes, totally a senatorial decision. This
Dr G 14:43 is a senatorial decision, and there is really strict limitations on the power that can be exercised. So basically, what happens is, the area for which land distribution is to happen is staked out in the sense that like, they’re like This is only for this area that you’re doing this thing in. And once that task has been completed, that group of three dissolves, right, so they don’t get to continue on in their power. And this might be a bit of a consequence of the Romans feeling a little bit uneasy with people deciding that their job hadn’t been finished and continuing on and then turning into a whole gang of a December it which, which continues to try and manipulate everybody for their own sake. So things will be dissolved, there is a, an endpoint to this work, and it only involves a very specific geography. Yes, for sure.
Dr Rad 15:37 So, the tri MD is are summoned eventually by the tribune of the plebs to trial for what they are doing. And this again, seems to be because even though the senators have been all like, gooey, super clever, and will have all these secret meetings, so beings have seen through this mean, like, but you’re not giving us the letter, yes, that appears to have been a shroud that nobody’s falling for eventually. But in order to avoid this prosecution, they’re just like, you know, what, we’re just gonna stay here, we’ll just stand at our no problems. That way. We can’t be called to trial.
Dr G 16:14 I guess I just live over here now.
Dr Rad 16:15 Yeah, I guess I just live in this area, you know, it’s not so bad. We’re pretty similar. And because of doing this, they are therefore not put on trial. And eventually, people respect them, because they reveal that even though they’re apparently quite unpopular at first, they’re actually very fair and just fan. And this is where Liberty chooses to envy.
Dr G 16:37 Oh, look, that I mean, that doesn’t make a lot of sense. I’m not going to pretend that Livia is making sense, you know, there seems to be some missing information. And maybe Libby doesn’t know what to do it. Dionysius of Halicarnassus because we don’t have him. Yeah, I don’t know what he said about it, clearly wrote about it, but it’s missing. The only other piece of evidence that I have for this year comes from Diodorus Siculus, who yet again, focuses mostly on Athenian history and what’s going on Sure, with the Greeks versus everybody else in the gym. And then, in one final sentence. Note that in Italy, the Roman sent colonists to idea and portioned out the land in allotments, which is true. To a certain extent, we don’t get any more detail than that. So the the suggestion in Diodorus seems to be that definitely some Romans get sent to our data.
Dr Rad 17:33 This is actually a really good point, I suppose to highlight how reading a range of sources is so important. And also, as you were saying previously, about, you know, choices that historians make about what to include and what to exclude and how it shapes their account, because technically what Diodorus Siculus has said is true. But technically, if you look at the extra data that levy provides whilst is obviously hugely problematic, because it’s clearly not making a whole lot of sense. There is a whole lot more potentially going on here than just that.
Dr G 18:10 Yeah. And it does seem that there is perhaps a broader strategy that the Romans are attempting to apply here even if they fail to do so with good grace and yeah, but that’s that’s also all I have
Dr Rad 18:24 yet but on the whole have been quite a peaceful you. Yeah, and that’s what Livy kind of finishes up with. So that means that Dr. G, I feel like we need to go into 441 BC Yeah, forget
Dr G 18:35 442 It’s done. It’s dusted a day out the land has been a lot of nobodies returned 41
Dr Rad 18:43 It is doo doo doo doo. Now this also is going to be a very short year because once again, it’s quite peaceful in terms of really a lack of external conflict and also not a hell of a lot going on inside a room either.
Dr G 18:56 I have some exciting things. Okay.
Dr Rad 18:58 Let’s start with the consuls. Shall we? The consuls? Okay,
Dr G 19:01 it’s 441 BCE. Who shall the consuls be? Gaius Furius, father unknown grandfather unknown. Pacilus Fusus. Oh, yeah, it’s got a few names. patrician did you do? And Manius or perhaps Marcus, there’s some some dispute over the praenomen Yeah. Papirius father unknown grandfather unknown Crassus. Sound familiar? That family is gonna have a long and illustrious history,
Dr Rad 19:35 although not necessarily attached to this particular line. No, that’s not gonna sound like that’s suddenly just occurred to me that that’s not quite the right connection. But anyway, I do also have those names, although, as you say, there’s that dispute over who’s who but anyway, apparently, back in the days of the decimal years, they had pledged some games after the whole secession of The plebs thing had happened. And they decide that this is now the appropriate time for those games to finally take place. Remember those games? I actually went back, and I read through all of the second decemvirate.
Dr G 20:13 I don’t remember those games being announced at all.
Dr Rad 20:17 I could not find a record of these games being mentioned. I mean, admittedly, it was very late at night. It’s possible that in the haze of what was 449 that I somehow did not find it because I was tired, but I actually do not recollect this at all.
Dr G 20:32 Look, maybe there was some pamphlets up around Rome and somebody saw 100 faded quite severely by now. They’re like, Wait a minute.
Dr Rad 20:39 Yeah. Okay. Good. Yeah. Now I do also have attributed of the polar bears being names. Yes, portfolios. A name I quite like, but unfortunately, not a person to be like strategy. Oh, yeah. Typical Tribune, which means he wants to stir up trouble.
Dr G 20:57 I love a good. I love a good troublemaker.
Dr Rad 21:00 Yeah. So this guy was tribune of the plebs. Maybe for the second time, he may have actually been one of the tribunes from the previous year. He also had been elected on the promise that these games would be carried out this year.
Dr G 21:17 Wow. Somebody’s reputation is riding on these games pretty hard. Now. I’m
Unknown Speaker 21:21 like, what games wouldn’t it?
Dr G 21:24 Look? It’s been a tough few years. You know, we could use some games.
Dr Rad 21:27 Yeah. Now Portelli is decides that well, okay, if the consuls have stolen my thunder by talking about the games, I know what I’ll do. I’ll say that the consuls need to put forward a proposal where the plebs are gonna get some land. Oh, boy,
Dr G 21:43 we’ve come full circle.
Dr Rad 21:45 I’m just like, Oh, my God, I land with you. I agree with you. But this seems a bit out of left field after everything. We’ve been dealing with land
Dr G 21:52 rights have been off the agenda for a little while. Until maybe like last year. Yeah.
Dr Rad 21:57 They’re always gonna be on the agenda until there is a quality. Yeah, yeah, true. Anyway, so naturally, the patricians respond, no, there will be no land for you. Thank you very much. Then per Tullius is like, Okay, gotta take another strategy. Instead, I’m going to try really hard to get a vote from the Senate about whether we’re going to have these military tribute ins with continental authority, or whether there are going to be consuls voted for in the next election.
Dr G 22:27 Oh, okay. He’s bringing out the big guns, isn’t it? Yes.
Dr Rad 22:31 And again, this goes for consuls.
Dr G 22:34 Wow.
Dr Rad 22:36 Poetilius then says, Alright, fine. Have your consuls, but I’ll tell you what’s going to happen. I’m going to disturb the levy. And do you know what their responses from the patricians?
Unknown Speaker 22:52 Levy. Whoa, you idiot. Go ahead. Most of the Livi see weekend. Good one.
Dr Rad 23:00 Wow. And that’s all I have.
Dr G 23:04 This year is bonkers. All right. So yeah, I have none of those kinds of details. All I’ve got is Diodorus Siculus. Right. Do this is booked Well, section 35. Okay. And he names the consuls. Yes. The consuls names Correct. Right. Incredible stuff. Yes. So he has a source. But he also talks about what is happening in Italy to the south. So we’re talking about Magna Grecia. Okay, essentially, yeah, this might become of interest later. So I’m gonna mention it now. So we’re not in Rome anymore. We’re talking about the inhabitants of three i Okay. Now, three, I heard
Dr Rad 23:42 of this place, because Spartacus ends up. Yeah, capturing the chance. Sorry.
Dr G 23:49 Three, it is apparently founded in and around this period, right, essentially in 443. Yeah. And so, you know, we’re a couple of years away from that. But it is on the Gulf of Tarentum. So if you’re thinking about Italy today, that is the Gulf of Toronto, right? It’s in Calabria and it’s considered to be the arch if you like of the boot. Acute spot, really nice spot. And they’ve got a situation where they’re like, Well, what is our foundation story? Who are we really where did we come from?
Dr Rad 24:22 Let’s get creative. Yeah, let’s
Dr G 24:24 let’s explore our feelings about that. I’ve
Dr Rad 24:27 got an idea. A virgin gives birth to do twin boys.
Dr G 24:33 If I spent some time thinking about it, and they send somebody out to Delphi to help them with it, because it kind of Yeah, because magnet raesha they’re Greek by extraction. Yes. So the three is probably not Italian people that probably have Greek background, right? And they’re like, Okay, let’s ask the oracle at Delphi for help with our foundation story. And they come back and they’re like, It’s Apollo. Everybody. Apollo is our founder. Fellas and so that’s great. And everybody settles down to enjoy their newfound sense of self within that so the three i Nothing really is happening in this year, but they’re feeling themselves. Okay. Okay, feeling that vibe feeling that Apollo bonus. You know, we’ve got a bit of a connection to music and sense of the sun. You know, no wonder
Dr Rad 25:22 it’s appealing to this then yeah. Wow. Okay, what a diverse group of facts. We have such a random year. I think they’re having covered two years now. Dr. G, it is time for the partial pick
Dr G 25:44 Ah, yes, Rome, Rome, Rome. Can you succeed in winning 50 Gold eagles. I feel like as a caveat on the slight information we’ve been able to glean from the last two years that the chances are probably pretty low.
Dr Rad 25:58 A Yeah, I’m not having good feelings. Even though we’re doing two years in one episode, two
Dr G 26:03 years worth of information, two years of Rome being able to excel and assert herself in some profound way. Will they come out on top? No. All right. First category military cloud?
Dr Rad 26:18 No.
Dr G 26:21 Just a straight up. No, definitely. No. All right. So zero straight off the bat. You use nothing to show for it. Yeah. Oh, ft. Diplomacy.
Dr Rad 26:31 Okay. I feel like there is something going on here at least in 442. In terms of what’s happening with our day Are
Dr G 26:41 they are trying to figure something out? I mean, I don’t know if it’s exactly
Dr Rad 26:45 diplomacy, but they are trying to be diplomatic. Like they’re handling the situation, it would
Dr G 26:51 see if we’re reading Livi straight, which I mean, we could do. It’s an idea is that idea Yeah. that the Romans are actually trying to make up for what has happened in the past and give a day and something back as part of this settlement, colonising thing that they’re doing right now. Yeah, I suppose you could see that as diplomatic.
Dr Rad 27:17 Exactly. So I feel like maybe I don’t know for
Dr G 27:23 sure, why not? Before, I don’t feel very invested in what’s happening in our day. But it’s because I have no source material.
Dr Rad 27:31 At least we’re finally getting to an end. And in my God, even though I know I did say at the time, like this is going to be a thing that comes back. But I really can’t actually believe that we’re still talking about it. So many episodes.
Dr G 27:44 just keeps going and going. Alright, so that’s diplomacy. The next category is expansion. Definitely no, well, okay, hang on. Well, technically, if they’re if they’re trying to find a way to filter some Roman citizens into that Borderlands area over do get some colonists in there under the guise and ages that they’re also trying to support the Danes to get back into that area.
Dr Rad 28:08 very crafty. Move. And technically, yes, you’re right. I mean, it is now a Roman colonies. So
Dr G 28:14 technically, that’s a little bit of an expansion. It
Dr Rad 28:18 is actually so I guess maybe, I don’t know. Maybe another four. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Or is that too much? I mean, it’s not like it’s a huge error.
Dr G 28:27 Well, it’s not a huge area, but it is quite strategic. So you think about it. Ostia is the port that Rome has that’s attached at the end of the Tiber. Yes, but it is maybe useful to have other ports. Oh, sure. Yeah. So another day or is a port city it is on the coast. So in that sense, it maybe has a higher value.
Dr Rad 28:52 Okay. All right. So four, four, okay, for it is not too bad so far.
Dr G 28:58 We’re twos.
Dr Rad 29:01 I don’t feel like anybody’s doing anything that extraordinary in this episode. No standouts? I don’t think so. What about
Dr G 29:08 your friend, the tribune of the plebs.
Dr Rad 29:11 He’s giving it everything he’s got. If he hadn’t said anything that year, maybe would have absolutely nothing to talk about.
Dr G 29:20 Does seem for bungled most things that he’s been involved in, though. So poor man.
Dr Rad 29:24 Yeah. I mean, I you right. He’s trying very hard, but
Dr G 29:30 I don’t think it constitutes weird choices. You don’t get to pull it off.
Dr Rad 29:33 It feels more like self interest or something like he’s just trying to make a name for himself. goofed. Yeah. All
Dr G 29:39 right. So no, we’re toast. No. All right, citizens score.
Dr Rad 29:42 Well, the reason why we’ve managed to fit two years into one episode, which is very uncharacteristic for us is because it’s very peaceful, in Rome and outside of Rome, which can only really be a good thing for the citizens.
Dr G 29:57 Yeah, there’s not a lot of conflict. And so we’d have to suspect that things are going all right, because we’d be we’d certainly hear about it if things were going wrong. Yes. And potel alias would have something meaningful to do with his role as tribune of the plebs. Yeah, perhaps if there was real conflict to be encountered.
Dr Rad 30:15 Yeah, like, sure put in and still have an issue with land. But that’s been the case for like, decades.
Dr G 30:22 And technically, they’ve gained some land tax. Why recently tax so well, land rights is a discussion that’s continuing to happen. Yeah, some people would have been given some land quite recently around our data.
Dr Rad 30:34 That’s true. All right. So I actually think maybe we have to go for five like it’s not.
Dr G 30:40 They haven’t gone backwards, maybe even a six because some of them may have been included in this colony land.
Dr Rad 30:47 They did say that they weren’t going to put Romans in until they ran out of reptilians, which would imply that there might be some Romans there. So yes, yeah. All right. That’s six. So that means that we have a grand total of 14 Golden Boy, not great when you can see this is two years, but actually not as bad as I was thinking I was actually like, oh, my god, is this gonna be another zero?
Dr G 31:11 Not another zero? No, no, they’ve done quite well. I think if they get over 10. At this point, they’re doing all right for themselves. It’s a tough time this century.
Dr Rad 31:18 Yes, it is. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Dr. G. I have to say a bit of foreshadowing here. The next couple of years are going to be far more dramatic.
Dr G 31:28 Look, I’m very excited because Dionysius of Halicarnassus kicks back in somewhere really soon. I’ll have something to say. All right. Until then, farewell.
Special Episode – Roman Republican Coinage with Professor Liv Yarrow
May 26, 2022
We were absolutely delighted to sit down recently with Professor Liv Yarrow to talk all about ancient Roman coinage from the republican period.
Special Episode – Roman Republican Coinage with Professor Liv Yarrow
In this conversation we explore a range of topics, including:
how to approach the study of coins (numismatics) – it is a very specialised field!
how the questions we ask of evidence changes affects our inferences and ideas
what makes a coin particularly beautiful
how coins can help us understand society, architecture, politics, and iconography
some of the amazing fashion you might spot on coins!
Coins to Keep in Mind!
Yarrow weaves a number of coin issues into the conversation, here’s some examples that we discuss:
Denarius of Sulla. ANS 1944.100.1502. Obverse: L·MANLI [PRO]·Q – Helmeted head of Roma right. Border of dots. Reverse: L·SVLLA·IM – Triumphator, crowned by flying Victory, in quadriga right, holding reins in left hand and caduceus in right hand. Border of dots.
Silver tetradrachm of Mithradates VI, Pontus, 120 BC – 63 BCE. 1944.100.41480. Obverse: head of Mithradates VI. Reverse: stag feeding
Silver Coin, Rome, 55 BCE 1944.100.2636 ANS 1944.100.2636. RRC 428/3. Obverse: Head of Genius Populi Romani right, with sceptre over shoulder. Border of dots. Reverse: Q·CASSIVS – Eagle on thunderbolt right; on left, lituus; on right, jug . Border of dots. Just one example of a wild haired deity on Roman coinage, echoing Mithridates’ aesthetic!
Silver Coin, Rome, 97 BCE 1937.158.59. Obverse: L·POMPON·MOLO – Laureate head of Apollo right; around, inscription. Border of dots. Reverse: NVMA·POMPIL – Lighted altar; to left, Numa Pompilius holding lituus; to right, youth (victimarius) leading goat. Border of dots. Numa sacrificing with his head unveiled in the Greek fashion.
Silver Coin, Rome, 64 B.C. 1944.100.2352. Obverse: L·ROSCI – Head of Juno Sospita right; behind, control mark . Border of dots. Reverse: FABATI – Girl and snake facing each other; on left, control mark. Border of dots.
Bibliothèque nationale de France, REP-17578. RRC 379/1. Juno Sospita on reverse – note the pointy shoes!
We’re exploring automated transcripts for our episodes. This one was produced by Otter AI:
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to the Partial Historians,
we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, that battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad
and I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Welcome, everybody to a very special episode of the Partial Historians. We are fabulously excited today to be sitting down with Professor Liv Yarrow from CUNY, the City University of New York, who has classics background at Brooklyn College and classics in history at the graduate centre. She holds a BA from George Washington University and an MPhil and D. Phil from the University of Oxford. So her scholarship spans the areas of ancient historiography and numismatics. In 2006, she published historiography at the end of the Republic, provincial perspectives on Roman rule with Oxford, and in 2020, her book, The Republic 249 BCE, using coins as sources came out with the Cambridge University Press. She is also the co director of the Roman republican dye project with the American numismatic society. So this is a huge honour, we’re super excited, because this means that we’re going to be learning more about Roman coins and coinage and concepts to do with numismatics in the ancient Roman world. And I’m just really thrilled to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.
Professor Yarrow 2:17 Thanks a lot. I’m really excited about this. I hope it inspires everyone to go look at some actual coins, not just listen to our fun words.
Dr Rad 2:28 I think it will for sure because I mean, as much as we will talk about specific coins, I’m sure in the process of this conversation, we’ll definitely need to have that visual with us in order to like really appreciate what’s going on with coinage. There’s such a fascinating type of evidence,
Professor Yarrow 2:45 we’ll get to curate a little gallery for everybody. It’ll be fun.
Dr Rad 2:49 Exciting. All right, so let’s jump in. So in your latest book, The Republic 249 BCE, using coins as sources, it’s designed to help guide students and scholars on the approach to the study of coinage. To get us started what is a sort of foundational idea for people who are interested in ancient coinage if they’re looking to sort of develop their expertise in this area.
Professor Yarrow 3:15 So the first thing to appreciate about ancient coinage is that it is one of the only visual mass produced media from antiquity. By which I mean that a team of men, maybe three men, working at a single workstation could produce anywhere from 10 to 40,000 coins with all with the same exact image in one day. And we think issue sizes and the Roman Republic that means coins where they might be using slightly different dyes. But the intention in the pre modern era is that they all look pretty much identical might be in the terms of millions of coins. And that’s a type of dissemination of visual imagery that we just don’t have with any other media In antiquity or really until we get to the printing press.
Dr Rad 4:19 Absolutely. So in the introduction to your book, you noted that different types of scholars will approach interpreting coins differently. So for example, and archaeologists will come with different questions from a socio political historian. How might this difference look in practice?
Professor Yarrow 4:36 Sure, so archaeologists love coins because they are more confident about the dating of those coins and they rely on us numismatist provide a handy dandy list of what date that coin was made at. And our catalogues are really confident about this coin was is made and this year, and we’re really good at dating coins. But in the Roman Republic being really good at dating coins means with a five year plus or minus error. So one of the things that we need to be really aware of is that not every date ascribed to every coin is as rock solid as we might want. So that in archaeology using a coin to date, a layer of stratigraphy is a very common approach. Another way that associate political person might look at is can I look at the person who made this coin? And can I connect this coin to the textual narrative that I receive? An art historian might look at a coin and say, Is this image representative of a statue group? And was that statue group well known? And what did it mean in the public display? And why is there that connection between the image on the coin and a famous or semi famous public image.
Dr Rad 6:15 So this sounds like it’s sort of coins have so much sort of condensed information that they might provide to somebody who’s interested in the ancient past, regardless of what perspective, they’re coming from it. And when we’re thinking about ancient Rome, we actually understand that coinage emerges relatively late in their society. So you talk about it coming, coming out in sort of the late fourth century BCE, and this is late compared to other Mediterranean societies. So I’m really interested in what sort of factors might have influenced Rome, one to adopt coinage, but also why they might have been so late to adopt coinage comparatively speaking.
Professor Yarrow 6:55 So as in so many ways, the ancient Romans were at a crossroads and a cultural crossroads, and a very literal crossroads. In terms of the peninsular Italy. They connected the cultures of the coastal areas, the sea, travelling communities and the interior. There, the Tiber was a very important point of connection. And then also, to cross the Tiber, the situation of the city of Rome, we always need to remember is where it was easiest to get across this major river. So the river is at once a conduit for travel, but also a barrier that needs to be overcome. And so the Romans are this cross cultural community from very early on. And this is especially true in terms of money. So to back up a little bit. Money is the first human invention, you might think that without coins, or some other tangible form of money, that everything is about barter. But in fact, the first invention is the intellectual exercise of realising that if you have a shared unit of exchange, or store of value, or measure of a measure of value store of wealth, that you can make transactions between individuals easier because you have a shared system of understanding, wealth and value and exchange. And that doesn’t depend on a physical object or a piece of money, even if it’s expressed that way. So shackles exist before we have a physical thing that we call a shackle. And so, Roman Italy, and Italy and wider. Indigenous Italy was fully monetized before the coming of coinage and their monetary system is based on measures of value tied to the Roman pound, and particularly to bronze and to not just the Roman pound the Roman pound in Rome, but the pound in any other community with their own systems of weights and measures. And there’s some really exciting work being done on this idea of how different systems of information and information knowledge like standardisation of weights and measures reflect social change. And so I just nod towards like the work of Andrew Rigsby on this sort of thing that’s very influential to destabilise what we think we know that the pound isn’t so fixed as we might want it to be in a modern world when we go back into antiquity these things are a little bit more flexible and changeable both in terms of space and time. But coming back to my thread of money and the switch from money to coinage, the money and the physical money of Peninsular Italy among indigenous communities was primarily what we now call a scholars eyes rude, which just means crude bronze or eyes for mahtim. And that’s again a made up Latin phrase just meeting, bronze that has been moulded into a shape. But the shape isn’t standardised. So the Romans were already participating in an indigenous is monetary system. But they were highly aware of their Greek neighbours who were colonists primarily in the south and primarily on the coast. And travelling and meeting other Greeks through those coastal communities, that they had a monetary tradition that derives from this, the tradition of coinage that started in the kingdom of Lydia, and that’s in southern modern day Turkey. And that started about the seventh century BC and that’s the monetary tradition that we still participate of coinage today. Just for full perspective, we have to remember that coinage was also invented by the Chinese in about the same century. And when these two traditions of coinage meet on the central steps, they recognise each other. And we have Chinese texts from the Han Dynasty, talking about how funny the coins are from the Mediterranean, because they have faces on them, and they use these precious metals. And that’s so weird, because that’s not what our money the Chinese money looks like. But they’re parallel inventions to solve a common problem. Coins are just a really easy way to solve the tangibility of money and to turn the invention of money into something that’s easily and readily used by everyone in the community. So that Romans at this crossroads, are participating into monetary systems. And they’re participating at first simultaneously. So the first coin that has the name Rome on it is made in ancient Minneapolis, what we call Naples, and we date that to 326 BCE. And we date it to the moment at which Rome enters into a treaty with Naples, after Naples has sided with their other enemies of the moment in southern Italy. But Naples is also one of these cross cultural communities of central but coastal Italy. And it’s not surprising, because Naples is already making coins for many of its neighbours. It’s a service that provides that one of the things they might offer to the Romans at this first moment moment of coming into a legal established relationship is to make them some coins. And those first coins look just like bronzes of Naples, they have the head of Apollo, they have the man faced bull. And we are pretty confident that we can link the coin that says, of the Romans and Greek to the moment of the treaty, because we have a pretty decent seriation of the Naples series. And we can sort of slot in stylistically that that it confirms the logic based on the texts that these coins share all of these habits. And so, in that first instance, the Romans are conceding and not in a particularly financially useful way that earliest Roman struck coins are made by Greek communities for the Romans in the name of the Romans, but they’re not made in such large quantities that they would have been of particular use. The Romans themselves at Rome, itself really seem to dive into the making of physical money in the run up to the First Punic War. And that’s where we get a kind of coin that has a another made up Latin phrase name, which is ice scrub, which just means heavy bronze, the heavy bronze. And, and a scholar named Burnett has this hypothesis that I think is very convincing that what I scrub represents is a combination of the sensibilities of the southern Italian Greek tradition of using coins, that a coin should have a face on one side and a design on the other, and it should be round. And it should have a fixed weight with a fixed denomination. So all of these features that are common within the Greek monetary tradition, coinage tradition, and the traditions of Central Italy, that money should be substantial and should be a bronze. And that it should have this weight. And so it seems that in this first, their first making of this mixed cultural tradition of money, they’re trying to keep what’s culturally important about both traditions.
Dr Rad 16:26 As they look, I think that’s so fascinating, because one of the things that I often talk about with my students, both ancient and modern history is how money is essentially a human invention. And that’s particularly funny in Australia, because I don’t know if you’re aware, but our money essentially looks like Monopoly money when we’re talking about our notes. So I’m like, You do realise that this is just plastic. And the only reason why it has a value is because we say it has.
Professor Yarrow 16:53 You know, but in some ways, it’s getting easier to teach that particularly with touchless payments, and the popularity of touchless payments, even growing in the backwards Land of the United States, in the course of the pandemic, to reduce our physical money, or our swiping of cards or the use of tap, because it helps us all understand the degree to which we say $1 or a pound, or any other monetary unit, but we’re really just measuring some abstract concept of value. And it can be nice to have something physical to, to hold, we all like getting, you know, a couple bills in our in our birthday card, maybe from grandma, if we still get that, but we’re quickly going to add that to our very untenable pot of credit with a with a bank.
Dr Rad 17:57 Absolutely. So you talked about the design of those early coins and how it evolved and that sort of thing. So if we’re thinking about the artistry involved in coins, there’s quite a wide range when we’re looking at the examples that you have studied. What are some that you think are particularly striking from the Republican period that the Romans made and what makes them particularly noteworthy for you?
Professor Yarrow 18:20 This is so hard, because my research partner is Lucida Carboni. And she’s the curator of Roman coins at the ANS with me on the Roman republican diet project. And we co teach a lot because we have a lot of student interns and volunteers. And whenever I talk about beautiful Roman coins, she’s like, No, no, you go quiet, and this come from Sicily, and they’re Greek. And then she goes into the vault and brings out something stunningly beautiful. You have to remember her family’s from Sicily. So even though we’re working on this die project, she has some concerns. But there is a little bit of truth to that, in that within the Greek tradition of bigger money. So that Tetra DRAM upwards, we’re looking at something that’s really substantial in your hand, and we’re looking at a tradition of Engraving and striking that is concerned with aesthetics. So there they have high relief, meaning that a lot of force has been used to drive that impression on to the blank flan of metal and they attempt to centre it and they take all of this extra care in the production, the Roman mins once we’re into its period of production of the denarius, so that’s anytime past 211 b. See with introduction is inclined to work less rapidly and in shallow relief. And they don’t seem to care about errors that we just don’t see on other coin edges. So it might be struck a little bit off flan. Sometimes one coin gets stuck in the die, and they just keep striking. And then we get these double headed coins that we call blockages. And it seems that other mints that had a greater aesthetic control, that these sorts of mint errors would be thrown out so I can answer your question about beautiful coins. But first, we have to accept that it wasn’t beauty. That was the number one requirement for the Romans of running a practice their denarii. So what is a what is a truly beautiful coin? I’ll talk to a little bit about a beat what I think is as a beautiful and interesting trend. And it seems to be directly influenced by the war with Mithra days. Okay, so Mithridates is this eastern king. He’s in relation with the Romans from the one hundreds, but he only really starts to become problematic in about the year 90, and so it’s 88 that they send Salah out to try and put him in their place. But he’s a very recalcitrant King, he’s not easy for the Romans to control. So he then dominates the narrative of the first half of the first century BCE. Mr. Davies presented himself as the successor to both the Persian Dynasty and the Macedonian dynasty. And so he wanted to be seen as a particularly charismatic saviour figure. And his coins are exquisitely beautiful. And one of the ways in which they’re exquisitely beautiful, is the rendering of his hair. His hair is not just this curly, Hellenistic locks of Alexander, but it’s really flowing and dynamic and full of energy with these curly Q’s that are escaping that Daya dam and this rugged yet youthful face that sort of looks up to heaven as if you want to follow him on campaign. As the great descendant of these two royal houses, this coinage seems to have made a really big impression on the Romans. And it’s not surprising, they brought a lot of money home from those wars, and some of that they probably brought home, not just as raw bullion, but in actual struck method, attic coinage. And some of that’s going to have ended up in the treasury. And now we’re in the realm of fantasy, but we can imagine those mythopoetic coins being taken to be melted down to make new flans. To start up, strike, Roman Denari. And so you have meant workers handling these beautiful coins. And all of a sudden, the Roman coins start using this same crazy hair. And they don’t use it to represent Mr. Davies, but they use it for sun gods and Quirinus. And all sorts of divinities of the late Republic start looking a little bit like Mithridates days with this extremely charismatic hairstyle and sensitive facial feature rendering on their arm versus So yeah, if I had to pick a aesthetic characteristic that I admire about the Romans, I’d go with them.
Dr Rad 24:23 That sounds sad because it kind of sounds like me in the morning. So I think this leads really nicely actually into my next question for you, which is thinking about the iconography on coinage, we’ve got this really sort of compressed moment, not just sort of pressed but also compressed imagery in which to demonstrate something and part of that is leaning into fashion a little bit and I think the hair also takes us in that direction already, but are there too changes or ways in which clothing and adornment is represented on coinage that might be worth looking out for. If we’re thinking about the Republic,
Professor Yarrow 25:11 I wish I could say yes, but the clothing is deeply conservative and symbolic. And so if you get a citizen male being represented on a Roman coin, he’s really only going to be represented in one or two ways. If he’s being represented as his status as a citizen, he’s going to be in a toga. And if he is being represented as a warrior, than usually he’s going to be wearing the standard garb of a member of the cavalry of the Roman cavalry. So the question then is, what does it mean when they’re not dressed like that. And those exceptions are really interesting. So there’s a coin that shows the king NUMA sacrifice sacrificing a goat are about to sacrifice a goat. And normally we would imagine a Roman about to offer sacrifice would have his toga over his head, because that’s how Roman citizen men pray and offer sacrifice. And it’s an interesting moment, because that’s not what NUMA looks like, in that picture. So and he’s clearly labelled with his name. So we know he’s the Roman king, and we’re having a Roman sacrifice. My hypothesis is that it’s because Apollo is the God on the omniverse. And the goat being sacrificed is being sacrificed to Apollo. And at Rome, the cult of Apollo follows the Greek, right. And the uncovered bear head is part of a legitimate ation of this particular type of Roman ritual being celebrated in a slightly alien or foreign manner.
Dr Rad 27:20 Wow, oh, that is very cool. I mean, because this is also tying into this idea that as we get into the further into the Republic, they’re not just interested in representing themselves necessarily, they’re interested in representing their whole history, as well. They’re like, we’ve got some coins now. But our history predates coinage, who would we like to represent? Let’s get a newcomer in there. He’s having he’s having a great time. Presumably,
Professor Yarrow 27:49 Numa has a remarkable number of coins more than any other king
Dr Rad 27:54 How bizarre.
Professor Yarrow 27:55 He’s doing well for himself, considering you didn’t miss any of them.
Exactly, exactly.
Dr Rad 28:02 So thinking about fashion, I suppose we can also think about something else that often appears on Roman coinage, and that is buildings. So what can we learn about the buildings of Rome from their depiction on coins? And maybe, what are some of the limitations of using coins to speak back to Rome’s typography?
Professor Yarrow 28:22 Okay, so there are people who know way more than me on this. And so I hope that someday down. So I hope at one point, you invite my colleague, Nate Elkins on to have a proper conversation about this. And he will tell you many, many more fun stories. But to get us started, I want to say that architecture on coin is maybe not uniquely a Roman phenomena, but it’s very difficult to find substantive precedent. And it really becomes a much more typical Roman motif than we would have ever seen on Greek or Persian coinage or any other of the pre existing monetary traditions within the Mediterranean realm. Why? I would argue that it’s because what goes on a coin is celebrating the success of the Roman state. And the Roman self conception is a conception of themselves, as in harmony with the gods. And so Romans preserve the packs day or on the peace of the gods, by fulfilling their obligations to the gods, and in turn, the gods provide them with success and war. And so every success in war becomes proof of Divine Favour and every past action to honour the gods is part of what has brought about the success of the Roman state and ensured its perpetual endurance into the future. And for the Romans, certain acts such as the erection of temples or monuments, or the holding of festivals are an essential part of how they show their honour to the gods, and particularly given the fact that many temples are vowed by generals in a moment of crisis. And then once the crisis is alleviated through the fake favour of the gods, and then the building is approved by the community as a whole, and then funded and dedicated, it becomes evidence, the temple itself, or whatever physical monument, it is, is proof that the gods answered the vow of the ancestor, that the ancestor fulfilled the vow so upheld their commitment to the Divine, and that that interaction between the person who made the original vow and the gods was sanctioned and honoured by the community. And so to put any religious monument and almost all monuments are religious in the Roman world view on a coin is celebrating numerous acts of piety and serve as justification for the, for the Roman state and the role of the individual money or is family with in that success.
Dr Rad 31:55 Oh, that’s very cool. I like that we’re like we’re, we’re bringing in the people who are doing the coin creation as well, like this is another act, another pious act representing that building, that has been a substantial part of that history. For so long build upon that relationship with the gods over time, you think about the need for the construction of those things, and how long that takes, and all of those particular elements. And now it’s represented on this coin as well. So it’s sending out that message even further, and sort of distributing it.
Professor Yarrow 32:26 There are monuments that exist on coins long before they’re actually built, because it takes a long time to build a monument and the most famous of these are the future Augustus young Caesar, you might know him as Octarians temple to the deified Julius, and it appears he might also be doing the same thing with the Temple of Mars altar. Some people think the circular temple of Mars altar that appears on the coinage is a second one. But I think it’s likely that he learned his lesson that you can make a temple real, even before it manifests on the ground by putting it on the coins.
Dr Rad 33:11 Typical Augustus, such a show pony
Ahead of you
Let’s face it, maybe maybe it was just his way of announcing, like, you know, this is the building plan. Objection. Now if you don’t like the design.
Professor Yarrow 33:25 Exactly.
Dr G 33:26 Amazing. So thinking about the way that politics is getting particularly complicated in the late Republican period, it’s becoming not that it wasn’t always the case, but prominent families and prominent individuals within families are really stepping forward, particularly when we get into that last century of the Republic. And this prominence of individuals, is this being reflected in coinage in any particular way? And can we trace the changes in Rome’s politics through the coinage and the way it’s represented?
Professor Yarrow 34:01 Absolutely, and it’s a really thorny and debated issue. So one of the simplest ways of reading the prominence of individuals on the coins and the greatest diversity that we see on the coins is that there’s heightened competition, and that these changes in design are specifically about electioneering. To react to this, and people often in that form of argumentation point to the fact that the coins start to become far more diverse at the same moment that the secret ballot is put into place. I would push back for this. Yes, any individual who wishes to seek higher office wants to prove their worthiness to be further elected on beyond the money or ship by doing a good job as a money or. But I don’t think that Romans would necessarily have conceptualised what they were doing as directly competitive, that what they’re attempting to do on the coin designs is articulate, much like we just said, it might answer the previous question, the way in which their individual families have participated in the success of Rome, and that there is no distinction between the individual and the state, if the individual is acting on behalf of the state, particularly in terms of exercising we are to Sir military ism, or in terms of honouring the gods, and because it is the ultimate act of piety, to not only honour the gods, but honour your ancestors, you’re fulfilling both responsibilities of an acting, how a good Roman should act, the kind of Roman that should be elected further on as exemplary of what’s good in the community, by performing these acts of piety that celebrate both your ancestors and your ancestors, service to the state specifically. So I’d say all of it is patriotic, it am, but it is also performative of a familial connection to the actions that have ensured Rome’s status.
Dr Rad 36:54 So it sounds like they’re kind of mobile propaganda, then are there any particularly notable examples that are like promoting someone’s career or promoting the family? Or trying to remind people hey, we did this?
Professor Yarrow 37:07 Sure. I’m just gonna say I’m allergic to the word propaganda.
Dr Rad 37:12 Yeah, no, I knew I was being a bit…
Professor Yarrow 37:14 No, no. And I will concede that many of my colleagues will freely use the term propaganda. And I’ve even concede that maybe I’m a little too rigid about it. But propaganda in the 20th and 21st century, nods specifically to a moment in which mass media was harnessed in very distinctive ways to promote very specific ideologies and often ideologies that were Factional or competing against other ideologies. And quite often, when our students hear the word propaganda, they associate it with things like brainwashing or lies or distortions of the truth. And I’m not sure for all coins are certainly a form of political speech, that they fit many of the connotations of propaganda, that at least our students or our contemporaries, in casual non academic settings might associate with it. But what is a what is a moment of political speech on Roman coins that sends a clear contemporary message. One of my favourites is the coins of Salah as he marches on Rome. So our moment in time is that he has had his first march in Rome and 88. He’s gone out to beat up Mithridates but in the interim, Sinha has taken control of the city and set up a completely separate political regime. So we have an effect to Roman governments in the 80s and the Sinan regime in Rome is sending out competing generals to fight Mithridates as well. So we have multiple marauding generals in the East. And so it becomes very clear that he cannot succeed in this war without securing the homefront. And so he comes to an arrangement with Mithridates he’s at the Dardanelles, that’s the mouth of the Hellespont just north of where it Troy is to get your geography so this key crossroads…
Dr Rad 39:56 Gallipoli for Australian listeners
Professor Yarrow 40:00 At Gallipoli. Absolutely. It’s this key crossroad between Asia and Europe. And they meet and they come to an agreement. We have multiple accounts of this agreement. And later writers in the remenham. pyre like Appian really want to show this as solid extracting concessions from the beaten Mithra days. But if we look at more contemporary accounts, my favourite is a local Black Sea historian named Memnon of her clan. That agreement looks very much like a mutual treaty to ensure the success of both in their ongoing political ventures, namely that Mr. Davies provides a good deal of monetary support to underwrite sellers March on Rome. So what does he do with this wealth? A lot of it gets taken to Athens Athens becomes his base of operations, and he harnesses the Athenian mint to create a coinage in his name. One of those coins, pictures him as a triumph font or so someone who is going to celebrate or has celebrated a triumph, but he hasn’t yet. How do we tell a tree on fire tour from any other dude writing in a cart before horse drawn chariot. We tell the difference on Roman coins by talking about the fast and the slow horses so do the horse horses of the gods tend to be charging into the sky and so we call that a fast quadriga. A slow quadriga is one that is on parade with the horses are high stepping and very sedate. The other difference, of course, is the dude in the car is wearing a toga, so we know that they’re a Roman. But instead of holding a palm branch or even a sceptre, or some other triumphal regard, Alia. He holds a caduceus. This is the Herald staff. And we have victory flying into the scene to crown him. So we have this melding of the divine world and the mortal world. But the caduceus really speaks to me because, yes, it’s about the messenger. And so the person who brings the news the Herald and usually, that news is good news. So the caduceus is a symbol of packs peace, a felicitas divine blessing, sometimes even shading into Concordia, the right ordering of society. And this coin, because it’s minted before he ever triumphs says very clearly, I’m coming to triumph. And I am going to get into that chariot. And I am going to celebrate in this way when I get there. But it’s anticipatory, rather than celebratory. So other coinage that has triumphal imagery. And so we have a coin that we think refers to the triumph of Marius over the Cimbri and the Teutones is and it seems to show Marius riding in his triumphal car with his son on the trace horse. That’s celebratory of a religious festival that’s already taken place. Whereas solace coin says very clearly, I have expectations and you will fulfil them.
Dr Rad 44:13 Love it. So this is a perfect way to ask about this moment of political speech, would Sulla have been the one coming up with the design ideas, you know, going in to see you know, a mentor and being like, Okay, so here’s my concept, guys, I want to look at this way. And I want these types of horses because I’m really trying to send a message here. How exactly would these different coin designs come about?
Professor Yarrow 44:37 We don’t know. That’s the short answer, but I can speculate, I would say that there is an underappreciated connection between seal rings and numismatic designs. So there is a preexisting vocabulary of individuals in both the Greek and Hellenistic world By associating their personal identity with a small image often engraved on a small circular design about the size of a coin, and that that badge of identity is going to be used both on letters but also on business contracts. And so that it is a way in which you prove something as yours and you say that it is authentic. And we have a number of instances where we can connect very specific coin designs to literary testimony about the seal rings of different individuals. And so we have other coins of Salah that have his trophies and we’re told that on occasion, he used his battlefield trophies as his signet ring. And so we can connect that with that design, or we have other testimony that he carved into a signet ring, the moment in which Bacchus surrenders Jugurtha to him when he was a questor his first great political success, and his son puts that design on one of his coin celebrating his father. Same with Pompey, we were told Pompey imitates sell his seal ring by having three trophies as opposed to two trophies. And again, we have coins that celebrate Pompey successes, using the three trophies and onwards to Salah. So that’s with literary evidence. I have a really fun article on glass pastes, which are fake gems. Plenty is very rude about poor people who use these deceptive glass intaglios. And how dare they think they’re worthy of signing contracts and participating in business if they can’t afford a real gem. But plenty aside, we have ample evidence for the fact that many Romans of middle middling financial ability, wanted to have a seal ring, to mark their letters to sign their business contracts to engage in everyday life and associate those images with their own identity as markers of self. And there is an incredibly strong connection between the designs we find on Roman republican, glass intaglios. And coin designs where you can say, Oh, look, that one looks like this one, that one looks like this one, tick, tick, have a nice little chart in the back of the article. What I like about this is it suggests a number of things, it suggests that people were looking at the coins, that they found the coin iconography compelling enough that they wanted to adopt it as markers of their own identity. And then it’s likely that even in places where we don’t have literary testimony, the designs we’re seeing on the coin may very well echoed designs of steel rings used by the money or the money or family because it is the most obvious small visual design that’s pre existing to mark themselves and how they conceive of themselves. So there’s a pre existing visual language out there that we can only recover a small bit of.
Dr Rad 48:41 And I think that makes sense, in many respects, because the artistry involved in producing those seals would also be a similar technology. I would know
Professor Yarrow 48:52 100% Probably even the same sort of people. You know that. If you become a money or and you have a particular engraver you like he doesn’t tell us, maybe you bring them along with you the mitt?
Dr Rad 49:03 Yeah, it’d be like, This guy does great work.
Professor Yarrow 49:09 Exactly, exactly.
Dr Rad 49:12 And I think this ties in really nicely to our final question, which sort of touches on a couple of things that have come up so far as well. So you’ve got this great sentence, which I think is fantastic for students coming into this sort of thing. Coins were the only mass produced visual medium in antiquity. And you talked already about how we’re talking millions sometimes have a particular designs coming through. What are some of the consequences for this in terms of the Roman Republic? Are there some examples where we have so many copies of a particular design that we’re like, what’s going on? And is this a standout message or do we just not have enough coins to know?
Professor Yarrow 49:56 Oh, that’s a great question. So I’ve been talking a lot in these lectures I’ve been giving for the AIA That’s the American Institute of Archaeology, about the coins of moneyers, who have a family connection to a Latin town called Lanuvium. Lanuvium is famous for having the sanctuary of Juno Sospita, and Juno Sospita it is a very fun goddess. And she is not like many Goddesses that you may think of. She is a warrior goddess, she’s got a nice big shield and spear. But she also wears really fancy shoes, they curl up like elf. And not only that, she also wears a goat skin headdress much like Hercules where’s the lion one, so she always gets horns and big ears. And she’s often striding into battle. And her cult was also pretty wild. One of my favourite things about the junior sauce, but a cult is that in spring, they would gather up all of the virgins from the local community, and send them down into a dark, dank cave, entrance through the religious sanctuary to feed the evil snake. Now the snake would take food out of the virgins hand only if they were really truly virgins, otherwise it would gobble them up, and they would never make it back to the surface. So once the girls go down into the cave to feed the snake, the parents all wait around anxiously to see if their daughters return. And if their daughters return, there’s a big party, because not only are their girls good and pure, but everything’s going to grow again. And you know, it’s the proof that the earth is fertile. And it’s this cult of the renewal of life. So it’s a pretty wild cold, and the Romans were really excited about it. And so when they conquer Lavinium in 340, they make a Treaty of Mutual alliances, and they incorporate the local community into the Roman citizenship as long as those people agree that the Romans can have a share in the control of this cult, because the cult is extremely popular and extremely politically significant with in lation itself. How does this relate to the coins? Well, we can all have this cool imagery on the coins itself. And so when people from this community are elected money are in Rome, it’s this cult that they want to celebrate. So we even get a picture of a girl feeding the snake, as well as Juno Sospita herself doing all sorts of wild things. However, we also have evidence that when the local cult was throwing parties, they had to make by parties, I mean, religious festivals, they made tokens and tokens are like, well, they’re their tokens, they’re here have a token, this makes sure that everybody gets the same amount of bread or wine or, you know, entrance to the games or the play or whatever. It’s a way of controlling access and keeping track of benefactions and access to benefactions party. So these are the parties down here. Here’s my token. So tokens are not coins, but they look like coins. And so they tend to be made more crudely. They’re often made out of lead because it’s softer and easier to work with. But they’re deeply associated with religious festivals and local communities. So the party tokens from this cult look like the Roman coins made up to 100 years earlier. Because they have this local pride our dude became the money or in Rome. What did he choose? He chose these images, we need to put something on our religious tokens for this next festival. Let’s copy that design. Yeah, so that’s one of my favourites sort of somebody’s paying attention to the coins and they’re paying attention over a long period of time, and it really matters within local communities, even outside of the city of Rome itself.
Dr Rad 54:37 I love that story. I think the next time I’m going to have a party I’m going to send out tokens instead of invitations. Perfect.
Well, this has been a wild ride. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for your time leave. It’s been really really amazing. And yeah, Juno sauce Better water water lady
Professor Yarrow 55:01 Maybe it’s the shoes I really want. I mean, I take the coat, but I really want those curly shoes.
Dr G 55:08 Fair enough. I’m with you. We’ll go back in time we’ll find some curly shoes. Amazing. Absolutely.
Thank you for tuning in to this special episode of the Partial Historians. I’m Dr. G. And on behalf of Dr. Rad myself, we would like to send a huge thank you to our Patreon supporters whose support enhances what we have the ability to do with this podcast. Our Patreon supporters receive early access to all of our special episodes, and we are starting to build up some exclusive content over there as well. So if you like what you hear, we would love to have you join our Patreon community. You can also find us on all social media outlets, or at least the old ones, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Catch you around.
Episode 125 – Big Trouble in Little Ardea
May 05, 2022
Do you get excited by a trip to the office supply store? Is The Home Edit your favourite show on Netflix? Then this is the episode for you! The Romans are in an organisation frenzy. Grab your red tape, post-its, a sword, and we’re off to 443 BCE. Expect some bureaucracy and civil war in Ardea.
Episode 125 – Big Trouble in Little Ardea
Struggle of the Orders? Or Struggle to find some Order?
Last episode, there was a major shift with the introduction of military tribunes with consular authority. Our major narrative sources, Livy and Dionysius, would have us believe that this was all part of the so called ‘Struggle of the Orders’, a way for plebeians to have access to consular power with tarnishing the office of consul with their gross cooties. However, it seems that Rome might have been restructuring the state to better address their needs. They were living in a 440s world and needed a state structure to match.
The Censor is Born
In 443 BCE, the focus was on the census. The census had first been carried out by King Servius Tullius. Since then, a few have been carried out during the early republic. But 443 BCE was a turning point. Everyone could see the need for a census. Gotta have that data! The consuls were not keen to take on this additional task. Acquiring enormous amounts of personal details takes time and effort. Just ask Google! It was also not exactly illustrious work. The consuls would much rather be charging off into battle or parading around the Forum in a fancy toga than crunching numbers.
As a result, it was proposed that a new magistracy should be established. The censor and his band of assistants were officially in charge of regulating the census. Hopefully, there would not be any more large gaps in between censuses.
A map the region with Ardea and Rome highlighted. Source: Omnis Rereum Romanitatum
Ardea Brings the Drama
Ardea has been a theme over the last few episodes. Ever since the Roman people decided to seize some of their territory, Ardea has been a sore point. The Romans don’t usually feel this much guilt! They are very keen to help out when a civil war starts raging in the city.
The domestic tension in Ardea began with a smoking hot plebeian girl. Isn’t it always the way? This nameless woman attracted the attention of a plebeian and patrician man. Her family disagreed about which man she should marry. The escalated quickly beyond a family dispute into total civil war in Ardea. Yep, that tracks. It’s Big Trouble in Little Ardea.
Will the Romans be able to prevent Ardea from total destruction? Tune in to find out!
Our Players
Consuls
M. Geganius M. f. – n. Macerinus (Pat.) – Cos. 447, 437
T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) – Cos. 471, 468, 465, 446, 449
Censors
L. Papirius – f. – n. Mugillanus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 444
L. Sempronius A. f. – n. Atratinus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 444
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 11.63.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.8-10.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to BBC Sounds (Beta), Pixabay, Fesliyan Studios, and Orange Free Sounds for sound effects and the thrilling Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Note
When Dr G mentions the patricians getting close to having imperium at approximately the 37 minute mark, she meant to say plebeians.
Sacrifice scene during a census from the Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus known as the “Census frieze”. This piece dates to the late 2nd century BCE. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Automatically Generated Transcript
Automatically Generated Transcript courtesy of Otter AI. We are exploring options with transcripts but hopefully the software has managed to understand the Latin and our Australian accents.
Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to The Partial Historians,
Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient Rome.
Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:34 And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.
Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.
Dr G 1:10 Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.
Dr Rad 1:18 And I am Dr. Rad Welcome.
Dr G 1:21 Welcome, welcome. Welcome to this episode where we are on the tail end of 444 BCE. And in this episode, we’re going to start by looking at 443 BC.
Dr Rad 1:36 That’s right as we trace the journey for him from the founding of the city, we’re in some very interesting times a real turning point one might say Dr. G,
Dr G 1:47 is a real turning point. We’ve just had this idea come to the surface of replacing the consulship, in some instances with military tribunes with controller power. And as this flow and effects of this decision start to play out, we’re going to see some interesting things come up in the history. Whether that happens this year in particular, we will find out together
Dr Rad 2:14 indeed, let’s do a very quick recap of what happened in 444, Dr. G. So there’s a lot of tension, as you said about whether they’re going to have military Tribune’s or whether they’re going to have consuls. But the last time we were talking, they chose military Tribune’s, but then they got kicked out of office. But not because they were doing a terrible job just because there were some problems with the way they were elected.
Dr G 2:40 Apparently, apparently, the auspices were taken incorrectly and something to do with the house.
Dr Rad 2:45 Indeed. So we ended up getting consuls, after all, so much for all of that.
Dr G 2:52 Oh consuls, we’re back with the old stock and Fada. All right,
Dr Rad 2:56 Indeed, indeed. But there’s also been some ongoing issues with a day out because of a terrible decision that the Romans made a few years ago now. But it just keeps coming back to haunt them where the Romans basically took land that didn’t really belong to them when they were meant to be arbitrating a dispute. And the Danz haven’t been very happy ever since
Dr G 3:17 they have not. And this has led to an ongoing consequence, where the day ends in 444 Send some ambassadors to Rome to talk this over. So while we’ve been expecting a lot of warfare to be on the scene, the idea being that military Tribune’s with consular power constitute a bigger body of people holding that Imperium to lead armies and do this sort of stuff. What we’re seeing instead is a lot of diplomacy and conversations happening. So there does seem to be a little bit of a disjuncture between this idea and concept of military tribunals with consular power as a necessity for facing of great numbers of enemies coming from all directions. And what seems to be the political reality of some maybe some boring conversations that the Romans have to have with all of their neighbours about exactly how they’re going to pull their finger out and stop being assholes.
Dr Rad 4:14 So with that being said, let’s jump right into full 43 B C. All right, Dr. J. So who are your consuls for this year?
Dr G 4:27 I have the consuls Marcus could gone yes mess arenas consul for the second time did and Titus Quint tears capital liners consul for the fifth time?
Dr Rad 4:40 Yeah. Now these two are quite a contrast because gayness was consul in 447, which was that really mysterious year just after all the drama of the second December it the second secession of the plebs, all of that stuff that had happened? We had that really bizarre year where we had almost no information And he was cancelled during that year where they were, I think just trying to prevent civil war from erupting in Rome, basically. And that’s when the young patrician started to get out of hand. So he was cancelled on that year. Capital lioness, on the other hand, oh, he’s had some big concealer years in his path. And it’s
Dr G 5:15 also an open question about whether this might be two people as well, because the year spread for these consul chips is quite wide. So first consulship 471. Yeah, second, 468. And five. That was the big one. Yeah. 446. And we’re now in this situation where we’re it’s also 443.
Dr Rad 5:40 Yeah, absolutely. So there’s been some that have been quite recent, but then it’s been going back a while. You getting on? He’s getting on,
Dr G 5:47 he must be pretty old by
Dr Rad 5:48 this point. Yeah. But experience, which is what the Romans like,
Dr G 5:51 a man with experience, they say
Dr Rad 5:55 indeed. All right. So what is going to happen in this year?
Dr G 5:59 Well, that’s a great question, because I’ve basically got a paragraph and then dynasties of Harlequin SS cuts off forever. For a while. It may be the end of book 11. But when book 12 comes into play, we’re missing some information.
Dr Rad 6:16 Wow, this is a historic episode then. Because for the past, what, eight or nine years, as we’ve been tracing the journey of Rome for the founding of the city, I have been reading Levy and you have been reading Dionysius, and he finally broke it off. But it’s actually amazing. We managed to keep going. So
Dr G 6:36 it is a problem. He’s had a little bit of gap before now once or twice, just briefly, but this is going to be a chunk of a few years. Right. But I’ll give you what’s in the paragraph that I’ve got. So it seems that there have been some issues with the Senate neglecting certain aspects of the way that Rome operates. So because there’s been so many military expeditions, and I’m sure our ongoing listeners will be aware that we’ve been dealing with a lot of sort of military backwards and forwards Rome, having issues with her neighbours, yes. And solving them by picking up some pointy sticks and running at them really quickly. Yes. And this means that other things on the homefront have been neglected, one of the most essential of which is the census.
Dr Rad 7:26 Ah, yes, this census Gudo red tape, get out the administrative gears.
Dr G 7:33 If Romans love anything, it becomes apparent as time goes on that they love bureaucratic process. Yeah, they like keeping tabs on everybody. And they like records. And this feeds into how we understand the modern world in many respects, because these guys are all over bureaucracy. So they get people together, they count them in various ways, and then they categorise them based on the stuff they own. Harsh. Yeah. It’s not they don’t care about who you are as a person. It’s not about personalities are about kindness. So what about your contribution to the community? It’s about how much stuff you’ve got
Dr Rad 8:09 is interesting, isn’t it? When you think about it, because I guess we’re so used to thinking in those sorts of terms. But we do live in a capitalist society. It’s kind of interesting to have this kind of measure. I said,
Dr G 8:20 this is a proto capitalistic society. Yeah, feel it with these kinds of ideas. This sense in which people’s worth is measured by the stuff that they possess. Yeah, is idiosyncratic. And there is no way if we’re thinking about like history, and we’re thinking about the different peoples and societies that have existed, there is no reason why this should be the way things are measured. And the fact that it’s the way the Romans measure it. And we can see ourselves in the depths of a pretty interesting version of capitalism right now. Those things are connected.
Dr Rad 8:54 Absolutely. The interesting twist to the census, the way that Romans do it, is that there is this moral dimension, which becomes introduced as well, eventually, where it’s not just about as you say what you own, although that is obviously important. But it is also about how you’re conducting yourself as to whether you’re going to be classed, you know, a certain way. That’s something that develops as time goes on. But also, I feel like the reason why they want to know how much stuff you have is because they do expect people who have a lot to give back in certain ways as well, whether that’s military service, or whatever. Do they though I think they do in the sense of they want to know what people own to they can figure out who’s going to serve what capacity in a military sense.
Dr G 9:40 Yes, yeah. Although to be honest, the more stuff that you’ve got, the more likely you are to be classified as patrician, which means you basically get to be an officer. Rather than a foot soldier.
Dr Rad 9:54 That’s really heavy. We’re gonna say gentleman
Dr G 9:57 you get to be making decisions not necessarily risking your own life, although you do get kudos for risking Europe
Dr Rad 10:05 totally smacks of say, you know, British Army First World War, you know, if you’re higher class, you’re more likely to be you’re gonna be an officer. Whereas if you’re low class, you’re going to be you know, in the frontlines, and that sort of entirely smacks of that I hate it. I hate everything about it. But it is a little different to the way that we would understand the census these days.
Dr G 10:25 Certainly. And it turns out that there hasn’t been census for quite some time. And this is a problem. And the the new consuls bring this to our attention. And it is notable that in 443, that we do have consuls again. We’ve just yeah, we’ve just created the Romans have just created not we, the Romans just created this new role, military tributes with controller power. Yeah. And we’ve literally only had three of them in place for 73 days, according to datasets of Harlequin SS. And we’re up to what is perhaps the second year of it being possible to have this position
Dr Rad 11:02 filled. It’s not the most inspiring start have ever seen.
Dr G 11:06 Is this the new wave of change we’ve been seeing in Rome, no.
Dr Rad 11:11 Social change was always very smooth.
Dr G 11:15 They had the idea, but they haven’t really run with the concept. Yeah,
Dr Rad 11:18 this is interesting. And this is often seen as being one of those turning point years. So we talked in quite some depth when we were talking about the military tribute idea, and that whole plebs vying for the consulship wanting to overturn the marriage laws that supposedly forbade into marriage between patrician and plebeian. We did discuss how this could be a bit of an organisational turning point for the Roman state could be where they looked around and said, You know, when things have changed, things have changed in the last 50 or so years, we need to update the system. And that might be at the heart of what’s really going on here. I feel like this censorship position is also a part of that. The rejigging of the Roman state, because when we talked about the census previously, I actually think it’s been mostly associated with the Regal period, we’ve had one or two, we’ve definitely mentioned a few since then, like we’ve had some citizen counts and that sort of stuff. But the big moment for the census was when it was introduced by the kings.
Dr G 12:23 And it is interesting that we’re at this point where they’re like, wait a minute, we haven’t done one of those for ages. Yeah, because it gives the sense very much that this is not yet a procedural thing that’s done with any particular pattern to it. Yeah. It’s something that people are like, Oh, we couldn’t do it. We haven’t done it. Oh, well, until somebody gets to a point you’re like, you know, what would be really good idea? We haven’t had one of those for a while. Absolutely. Well, those are not fully legislated. And the traditions are not fully set, you
Dr Rad 12:53 know? No. And they also come along with those ceremonies of purification. So we know we have talked about a census once or twice. I know, we’ve mentioned the last room before where the city is purified at the end of the whole census procedure. But yeah, it, it has all of those connotations to it, so I can understand that they’ve probably been far too busy to bother with this kind of stuff.
Dr G 13:17 Fair enough, fair enough. So that’s pretty much all that I have for 443 BCE. The only other source that I’ve got is Diodorus Siculus, who has come up a couple of times. For me when we’ve got a gap with datasets or Halycon. SS, he’s not known for being the most reputable source. He epitomises other histories. He reads widely, it seems but doesn’t really go out of his way to access everything. Like he’s sort of grabs what’s at hand and goes with it. He’s from Sicily, originally, which is where the Siculus in his name comes from. And he does end up in Rome, and he’s writing in between the sword about 6030 BCE. So a long time after the events that he’s recounting his take on 4443 keep wanting to say 43 We’re definitely not up to that. 443 BCE is mostly a thing in history and what’s going on with them and their particular battles. Right. And so and that consumes most of it, he does mention the consuls, he gets the names pretty, right. So that’s
Dr Rad 14:28 pretty right. Do the names we’re talking about.
Dr G 14:31 I know and he often gets them pretty wrong. But he does get them pretty right this time. Like Marcus could Gardius Masaru Yunus is correct. Okay. And he gives us tightest, Quintus right. Just leaves off the capital lineup.
Dr Rad 14:44 Oh, okay. That’s all right. Yeah,
Dr G 14:46 I’m giving us like a 90%. No, no,
Dr Rad 14:48 you said pretty rad. I’m like, what did he change? No. All right. Well, I have a little bit more detail about this whole censorship process. I mean, it honestly feels really unnerving for Livi to have more detailed and Dionysius on these sorts of things. I’m really excited about this, if not crazy announced, because this is live we were talking about. But there’s a bit more discussion about this actual role of sensor being created. So rather than it being something that happens, or for example, that the consuls might carry out in place of the kings who used to carry it out, they talk about creating this actual office of sensel. Which is why it seems like a bit of an organisational turning point, you know, fine tuning that bureaucracy. It’s exciting times here the partials and stories.
Dr G 15:39 Do you want to brand new role in our government?
Dr Rad 15:43 Yeah, exactly. So the consuls are still kind of preoccupied by the fact that Rome, still in a vaguely threatening situation militarily? We haven’t discussed the fact that war seem to be looming.
Dr G 15:56 The Fog of War surrounds us. We can’t see the enemy, though. Yes.
Dr Rad 16:01 And so carrying out a census, obviously, it’s a huge amount of work in terms of counting all the citizens figuring out what jobs they do, how much property they have, and all of that kind of stuff. And it was seen as being beneath the dignity of a consul out. I know. And that’s why they decide we really need someone who is going to be the magistrate for this thing.
Dr G 16:23 I like being the big decider. I don’t want to have to deal with all of the little decisions that go with being a censor, basically. Yeah.
Dr Rad 16:29 So I how can we free up some mental space for the consul? You know, I mean, the burnt out band, it’s bigger issues to think about, yeah, how are they going to have those big picture, leadership visions, all their time is taken up with administration, the new CI of the bureaucracy, no time for it. So they decide we really need to have different magistrates, who are going to have people that are going to help them out to take charge of the records, and really make this a more regular orchestrated thing. So the senators love this idea, because this would mean more Patricia magistrates in Rome, Dr. J.
Dr G 17:15 Oh, thrilling stuff. That’s just what Rome leads.
Dr Rad 17:19 Yeah, the patrician see big things ahead for this. So like, if we get the right type of people, and by the right type of people, I mean, important patricians into this role, it would naturally become an important Madrasi. To see it, you can just see it happening. It would have that certain. Tata.
Dr G 17:40 Yes. It’s good to have that ring of influence about it, isn’t it?
Dr Rad 17:44 Exactly. And of course, the tribune of the plebs being dull as they are, they have no problem with this because they see it as something that is just a function, you know, that needs to be performed. I think it just has to happen. Not something that is necessarily super important, and they also want to be seen as troublemakers heaven forbid that they see as troublemakers in the room. Wow,
Dr G 18:07 the tribune of the plebs. They’ve really settled down as last year or two, haven’t they?
Dr Rad 18:12 Well, I think this is a bit of that elite bias coming in, perhaps, and also completely written with hindsight, because we know that the Office of sensor does become important. We know that people like Augustus are going to end up wielding it to great effect by the time that Livy is writing, so I feel like he is being overly snooty and insinuating that they should have somehow foreseen what this position was going to end up
Dr G 18:41 with. This is a miss by the tribune of the plebs. Exactly. They should have registered some complaint
Dr Rad 18:47 early on pretty much. Yeah, exactly. So the very, very top people aren’t particularly interested in taking on this position, because it isn’t super important. So
Dr G 18:58 I’m like work as well. And if I was a patrician, I’m not sure I’d be in for that. Oh,
Dr Rad 19:03 it’s definitely a game if you do have helpers, but I actually have some name. Oh, yeah. I don’t even know. Dionysius gave you names on it. No, you get Okay, so I’ve got one Lucius purpureus new Gleaners. And I’ve also got one Lucius sim Prunus at truthiness,
Dr G 19:26 whose name I think we weren’t sounds familiar. Actually,
Dr Rad 19:29 they both had been Suffect consuls in the previous year. Okay, so they really should ring a lot of bells
Dr G 19:38 should have rung more bells that rang
Dr Rad 19:39 for me. Yeah, absolutely. It’s at this point. So census is all wrapped up by this point. It’s at this point that the envoys from a data arrived again, they’re in desperate need of help because their city is on the verge of collapse. They tried to keep things as peaceful as possible. And you know, just keep it under wraps because that’s what Roman wanted but they are in a position where civil war seems imminent. There are factions that are threatening to tear a day are apart. And this is all had its roots in a private conflict when a hot plebeian girl attracted the interest of both a patrician and plebeian be prepared for a soap opera ensuing. Yeah, I’m excited. This is this is what this is what it helps the factions to develop. Okay, sounding a little bit like the Virginia story in a way or work in Yeah, sorry. Basically, the Libyan guy obviously needed the approval of her family. The patrician guy, on the other hand, he was really just interested in her because of her very good looks. Yes, yes, classic, patrician move. Yeah. This, of course, had led to lots of party strife in the household of the girl about the politics of these guys and the factions that they come from. The mother preferred the noble, but also the patrician, I should say, because obviously, he would offer her certain opportunities in life. And he she wanted her daughter to marry as well as possible, but her guardian thought it was important to ally with their fellow plebeian, Okay, interesting in debt, and they really couldn’t resolve the matter in their own household. And therefore, this results in a huge legal case, and the magistrates had ended up deciding in the favour of the mother and allowing this girl to marry the patrician. Now, I’m just going to flag here that in the translation that I was looking at, it mentions that the patrician was from the Optima Artis party.
Dr G 21:37 Oh, that seems way too early for the optimizer to come into play. It is Aster is listeners?
Dr Rad 21:44 Definitely. This is something that is very much i term I would associate with the late Republic,
Dr G 21:50 and even then, late Republican historians still are unclear about exactly what would make somebody in optimality, as opposed to the other faction, which is the popularities.
Dr Rad 22:04 Yes, I think the general jest and again, it makes sense, I suppose given when Levy’s writing, and I probably should have consulted the original Latin. But as usual, I forget to do that. But I presume it because of the notations in this that they had already done that. I think the connotation is meant to be that this patrician is very much about the elites in his allegiance, not the people. I mean, I think that’s what we’re meant to get from this. But yeah,
Dr G 22:32 it’s just that he’s a conservative leaning, patrician elite. Yeah,
Dr Rad 22:37 I just thought it was really interesting. He
Dr G 22:39 must be very good looking.
Dr Rad 22:42 I know, right?
Dr G 22:43 It seems he’s forsaken all of his class values.
Dr Rad 22:47 One would think for this woman just because she’s hot. Yeah. Wow.
Dr G 22:53 He Rome sobered up in 443.
Dr Rad 22:57 So much drama. Anyway. So what ends up happening is of course, after this legal decision is made, her guardians are not prepared to abide by this decision. So they decided they’re going to publicly address a crowd of their fellow plebeians about how ridiculously unfair this decision was the guardians and get together again and abduct a girl from her mother’s house. Wow. I told you this is a total soap opera idea, coming to the rescue. Anyway, so this is obviously very, very problematic, very dramatic at this point in time. But the patrician is hardly going to let it’s he got to be kidding. He gets together again in his own war like aristocrats of course. Yes, absolutely. So literally gang warfare breaking out as a result of this girl and her good looks. I mean, hello. Hello, Troy.
Dr G 23:54 Yeah, there’s some really interesting parallels here,
Dr Rad 23:58 isn’t there? Yeah. This results in a battle and the plebeians on the streets. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it doesn’t specify but I presumed Yeah, results in a battle that Cobain’s end up losing, but they set up a camp on a hill and then from their camp, they go forward and destroy the farms of the patricians and they started thinking that maybe we’re just gonna lay siege to the whole of our data. Why? Why stop at just five? Why stop at just patricians? Let’s just go nuts. Other people have started to join them, not for their lofty moral reasons, but because they just want stuff.
Dr G 24:35 Yeah,
Dr Rad 24:36 I can see our day have been pretty annoyed at this point. This is why the Danes have come to Rome and been like, Excuse me. We seem to be in a spot of
Dr G 24:47 and there is some private interests taking hold around our homeland and we’re not best pleased. Yeah.
Dr Rad 24:53 So the patrician faction in our day, it had been the ones to ask for help from Rome, right? So we have to imagine the envoys speaking and very often he’s written in on a beret, wearing tweed with elbow patches. On the other hand, the plebeians have sent for help from the vole skins who are all smart move. Yeah. Who are also in the same region, as Rome and idea?
Dr G 25:21 Well, well, yeah. So if we’re thinking about visualising this on a map of Rome, think of Rome as being in the centre of the map idea is to the south west, on the shore, it’s on it’s a coastal town. And the whole skins are to the south east of Rome. And so they’re kind of sitting at the same sort of like, is it longitude as they are, but there’s latitude,
Dr Rad 25:43 latitude. You know, I remember next I had to teach geography for a little while. Oh, latitude is flat a tude?
Dr G 25:50 Yeah, I have issues with things that involve the nature of the globe, where how you name winds, and also reading clocks. I’m gonna put them all together as issues that I have. So the volsky i are sort of the neighbours of our data, but also neighbours of Rome. Yes. Yes. And historically, one of Rome’s greatest enemies at this point,
Dr Rad 26:12 Oh, definitely. There’s been so much conflict between them. So they’ve all skins send out a rescue party led by clue alias. Name, we might remember. Yes, yes. And equi include alias. And they get to our day at first, and they start hoping to procedure there because they seem to go along with this idea that Sure. Let’s just besiege the town. Well, the
Dr G 26:38 volsky. I have an interest in our data, and they have done for quite some time. And that’s been facilitated by the fact that Rome has weakened our day as defences over time as well. So the volsky I have this reputation of sort of popping in under the radar, as Rome has weakened somewhere and being like, and now it’s out
Dr Rad 26:55 and we’re being like, hey, wait a minute. And there is often an association between the old skins and the alien. So this all adds up. Yeah. So the Romans, of course, hear about what’s happening. So one of the consuls, Marcos Giga Aeneas ends up leaving with an army to assist in the situation. When they are getting close to enemy forces. He obviously sets up his camp, he lets his soldiers you know, splash some water on their face, freshen up a little bit, put on some new mascara, you know, get out the pumps, and that sort of thing. Then they march out, though, so fast that at sunrise of Oskins realise, oh my goodness, we’re actually in a bit of a risky situation. The Romans are here. Yeah, dammit. The position that were in is actually kind of even worse than a day is positioned right now given where the Romans have set up camp and how quickly they’ve managed to try it out against us. Gainey has also managed to ensure that his friends in our day out could come and go as they please. So the moleskin is clearly had not managed to completely surround the city in this huge. The foreskin commander also did not have food supplies stored in advance which
Dr G 28:08 Wait a minute. Yeah. That is a logistical error of a high magnitude How long did they expect to be on the field?
Dr Rad 28:16 Well, I think this is the thing I think this is why they got there first, they didn’t really think about it too much.
Dr G 28:21 They just were like were around
Dr Rad 28:23 earlier for Popeye, no problems. And so he’s men had been relying on just foraging in the local area for food and now he finds he has no supplies. This is probably why he realises he’s in a worse situation than Isaiah because the Romans that probably cut him off from any real food, no
Dr G 28:42 foraging for you. Back to the camp, and hungry
Dr Rad 28:47 so naturally, he does the smart thing and ask again so they can enter into negotiations. Okay, like look, if the Romans are intending to put an end to the siege, why don’t we just call it quits, we’ll just we’ll just go home, okay, by the Romans and not say, loves the chubby. You attacked our allies. You don’t just get to walk away. The gain is demands that what they need to do is hand over their general lay down their arms admit that they have been soundly beaten and give into Roman authority. If they refuse, the Romans would be dead. Adam is for all eternity. Wow. Yes, Ganey is you might be gathering
Dr G 29:40 he sounds like a little bit of a douchebag. But,
Dr Rad 29:43 you know, he’s determined that he’s gonna go home with a resounding
Dr G 29:48 victory. I was gonna say he wants a trial. Oh, yeah. And he’s gonna find a way to get one.
Dr Rad 29:52 Absolutely. And he also doesn’t want a kind of slushy piece. You want something that’s going to look Really impressive volsky? I
Dr G 30:02 don’t on your knees. Exactly. The vols
Dr Rad 30:04 games, of course, can’t really agree to these conditions because I just watch evaluating. And so they are forced to enter into battle with the Romans in a position that’s not really
Dr G 30:13 great. Never go into battle on an empty stomach.
Dr Rad 30:17 Right? Always carry a Snickers. Always Yes, you know yourself when you’re hungry. They’re not only starting in a bad position, but they’re also in a situation where if things don’t go well for them, they’re not going to be able to run away very easily. Ah, yes. So spoiler, the decimal.
Dr G 30:37 Oak, come on volsky. I, I mean, I feel for them. I feel like the thing to have done here would have been to be like, we just need to go back and talk about your suggestions. And we’ll come back to you with an answer. Go back to camp pack it up quickly and run away. Yeah, exactly. So
Dr Rad 30:51 what a failure of strategy so terrible that they beg the Romans just for the battle. I don’t know what that looks like in the middle of a battle, but I’m imagining they just thought of dropping to their knees dropping their swords. I’m guessing
Dr G 31:03 that there is signals of surrender. Yeah. universally known in the area. Yes. And
Dr Rad 31:09 so they willingly then hand over their command hand over their weapons, and they are made to pass under the yoke with a single garment each. Oh, completely humiliated. Yes. Now
Dr G 31:21 passing under the yoke. This is something that we have encountered before we have and it is what seems to be a ritual that encompasses both humiliation to a certain degree for the defeated, but is also a ritual acknowledgement of their failure and their consent in some ways to fall under Roman leadership,
Dr Rad 31:45 which is an interesting one, isn’t it? So the remaining defeated vole skins once I’ve gone through this process, they set up camp near Tusculum. We haven’t talked about Tascam for a while. I like Tusculum, though, it’s cute. I know. The testicle ends. However, I’m holding on to an old grudge, no doubt made during one of the numerous conflicts between Rome who would have been assisted by the task, gluons, who are the allies and the volsky ones who are traditional enemies. And so they decide that they’re going to attack this foreseeing camp, even though they are clearly in no position to fight back. And as a result, they’re apparently on the very few survivors from this volcano.
Dr G 32:27 Okay, so Tusculum turn up and and finish off what Rome has had started essentially, well,
Dr Rad 32:34 only because of our skins go near them. Okay, as they retreating, they set up a cabinet. artikelen. Right. And so they’re, I guess, just taking refuge there. Yeah, hospitals aren’t having that now and it because it does seem to be an interesting force that the Vols skins have assembled here. I’m not even sure how official this army is meant to be. Exactly. But certainly it is a group of people from the moleskin area. But how official it is it’s a bit unclear. So they had retreated in disgrace. Maybe they just didn’t want to go home that had happened.
Dr G 33:08 So the volsky I have retreated visually on the map. They’ve retreated to the east. And Tusculum is one of these places that is in the foothills of the Albion Hills. Yeah, so they’re sort of heading back towards their homeland. But they have to pass by tussle and to some degree in order to get there. Yeah, they’ve ventured too close.
Dr Rad 33:31 Maybe I mean, maybe because they pass under the yoke. I mean, maybe they were kind of going into that area because it is associated with Roman Roman allies and Roman control hospital and didn’t
Dr G 33:41 know that the yoke passing had already
Dr Rad 33:43 they didn’t. You got into your kidney. These guys. Anyway, so the Romans are now free to restore order in our day out which they do very efficiently. Typical Redmond style, just chop off the heads of the people that started the trouble. Wow, yeah. Then Then let’s take that property and put it in the public treasury. Now everybody’s happy
Dr G 34:07 in the public treasury of a day out or in the public treasury of room doesn’t say
Dr Rad 34:11 but I’m presuming on day because they are restoring order in Yeah, yeah. The day in Sorry, I shouldn’t say the dance. The odd dance apparently is what they called a dance just seems so
Dr G 34:22 you can say all day. And so it’s a very English thing. Let’s okay.
Dr Rad 34:25 Yeah. The day is felt that the Romans had now repaid the debt. So after that terrible decision that they made, they have helped them out. But the Roman senate is actually still feeling really guilty about that thing. They just the disgrace really hangs over Rome for years and years, according to Libby’s account. So again, it goes back to Rome, anyway, of course, gets his triumph. Exactly feeling pretty good about himself. Kubilius, a guy that had been the commander of the volsky in forces is made to walk in front of his chariot, there is all the booty taken from the moleskin army before they made them pass under the yoke. So that’s all looking pretty good for him. Quint Diaz capital lioness also is singled out for praise by levy because whilst the gayness was off doing all that kind of stuff, he made sure that there was peace in Rome itself, making sure that law was justly applied, whether you are a patrician or whether you’re a poor being my
Dr G 35:28 normal gang warfare, no more chasing after pretty women in the streets,
Dr Rad 35:32 or ducting urine relative
Dr G 35:36 has been a tough year for this kind of thing.
Dr Rad 35:38 Yeah, so the Senate is really happy because I presume by Senators levy also is obviously just meeting patricians more generally, they are happy with Quintos capital owners because they see him as being you know, a strict console someone who’s keeping things in line. But the plebeians are not alienated by his strictness. They don’t see him as super oppressive, they see him as someone who’s got a lot of personal dignity and integrity, integrity, and they’re happy to work with him. He can hold his own against the Tribune, so kind of everybody is happy. I think, as we were flagging, at the beginning of this episode, the fact that he has held the console ship so many times and seemingly over such a long period of time. He is an older man, by this point, his experience counts for a lot. He’s very beloved by the whole population. He’s well known to everybody. Yeah, absolutely. And he carries himself well, he’s he’s fair. You know, he’s strict, but he’s fair. And live. He says that by this stage of his career, he himself is almost more revered than the office of consulship itself.
Dr G 36:47 Wow,
Dr Rad 36:48 patting myself a bit here. And because gayness and Quintus capital liners are doing such a great job in terms of internal harmony, external victories. I mean, come on. Oh, can you what people are forgetting about the idea of military tributes? Oh, yeah, when you got men like these on the block, who has
Dr G 37:12 time for it? Oh, just when the patricians have this sights on being able to have some proper Imperium. Alright, everyone’s like that. It’s going really well with the consuls. Now. Don’t worry about it. Exactly.
Dr Rad 37:23 So that is where I wrap up the year for 43. Before
Dr G 37:29 a year, thank you for sharing Levy’s account. I wish I had something to share in return.
Dr Rad 37:34 Look, I can’t believe that Dionysius breaks off just before that soap opera I know. But anyway, that means Dr. G, that it is time now for
Dr G 37:44 about your big
Dr Rad 37:50 thank you. Ego, you rejoined us again near to go see the eagle return in Z?
Dr G 37:58 Well, the partial pit room has the potential to earn 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each ranked out of 10. Let’s find out together how well Rome is performing against their own criteria. Okay. Military cloud.
Dr Rad 38:16 Well, I mean, it’s pretty good guy. Got it. It
Dr G 38:20 does all right for himself doesn’t really does well. Doesn’t get any better than that. Only when the two consuls go out and and have success, I think Oh, and
Dr Rad 38:29 also, I mean, if we think about what he’s actually doing, I mean, resolving this kind of conflict. I don’t know if it’s the most illustrious thing I’ve ever seen. So he’s probably give him maybe like a seven.
Dr G 38:41 Okay, yeah, yeah, I was gonna say it’s not a full tan. I don’t think I’m that great. I think we’ve seen better and I think Ron can do
Dr Rad 38:46 I mean, he milked the most of this opportunity. There’s no doubt about that.
Dr G 38:51 That means we move on to diplomacy.
Dr Rad 38:55 Well, okay. Even though obviously, warfare tends to imply that diplomacy has failed. I think the Romans did kind of try like there was some negotiating it was pretty strict.
Dr G 39:09 I don’t know. I mean, isn’t it the case that our day I came to them to negotiate? I think we could say that the Danes are engaging in diplomacy. And Rome has responded by sending an armed force that’s which may or may not have worked out for our dear. But is that diplomatic? Maybe? Maybe not. Yeah,
Dr Rad 39:27 that’s true. Okay, so maybe like, I don’t know, one.
Dr G 39:31 I was gonna say maybe three, so I could go with a two perhaps. Okay. All right. Expansion.
Dr Rad 39:37 Well, not really. I mean, they’re just settling a civil dispute and a neighbor’s area.
Dr G 39:44 They definitely haven’t gained more territory. That is that is a firm zero. Yeah, we’re tours. Hmm, I’ll look a goddess is doing some pretty. Like he’s being strict. He’s being really clear about what he wants. Yeah. And he succeeds in getting it. That’s true. So from a Roman perspective, not only has he been courageous in putting forward a really robust position of what he wants, yeah, but he’s also found the means in order to acquire it. Like when it comes to battle, he goes in and takes it.
Dr Rad 40:14 Oh, yeah. And the Romans, just particularly the Senate, and the patricians are feeling a really strong sense of shame over the whole business with our day or and ruin, basically stealing its territory.
Dr G 40:27 So this is kind of like a redemptive meeting moment as well, more broadly. Yeah, for Rome to sort of maybe rectify some of the poor decisions it’s made in the past with relation to our data.
Dr Rad 40:38 Having said that, though, I don’t know that is again, the best example I’ve ever seen.
Dr G 40:44 No, I’m not. I’m not gonna suggest that. No, but I think there is some weird to us at play for sure. And Romans at the time would have been like, there is some weird words here. Yeah. Recognise where to us.
Dr Rad 40:54 Even Quincy has capitalised. I mean, is a little bit different, obviously. But the fact that Livi singles him out for particular praise
Dr G 41:02 Rila. Is a good looking, do I have to form again?
Dr Rad 41:11 So maybe I don’t know if five? Yeah, okay.
Dr G 41:15 All right. And that leaves us with the final category, which is the citizens score. How nice is it to be a Roman citizen, walking the streets in this year.
Dr Rad 41:26 Okay. Not great in the sense that after fighting so hard to get military tribute into the consular authority, so that plebeians can hold very important officers, they’re not getting that so that’s not great. However, the plebeians are said to be satisfied with their leaders at this point in time, and justice is apparently being administered fairly, regardless of what group you belong to. And ramesside.
Dr G 41:52 There also, is a patrician gang coming after a plebeian group. Well, yes, but that’s,
Dr Rad 42:00 that’s an idea that
Dr G 42:01 well, but But
Dr Rad 42:04 I there was also Toby and Patricia, and Holger knows,
Dr G 42:10 there is some Yeah, I mean, I have some questions. And maybe a day doesn’t count under this sort of? Well, I
Dr Rad 42:15 think that’s the question. Yeah. Are we including what is happening in our data? Because that story I told you is definitely and I, Dan.
Dr G 42:25 Yeah. And I guess not. I think they would be that’s definitely not how this category works. This is how good it is to be a Roman citizen right now. Yes, yes. And Roman citizens seem to be pretty happy with their lot right now.
Dr Rad 42:39 Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So maybe like a fun? Yeah, it’s
Dr G 42:43 not it’s not like they’ve had great concessions or anything. It’s not like the A lot has improved. But it certainly hasn’t gone backwards.
Dr Rad 42:50 No. And as I say, the main thing that they’re always concerned about, and this is where the patricians so they tend to get uppity and demand more rights, and all of that kind of thing when they are being treated unfairly, which makes sense. At the moment, they’re not being treated badly. They’re not being treated as second class citizens in the sense that it’s not in a way that they’ve noticed at a time to come. No, I mean, they are obviously always, but it’s not in such a way that’s like so egregious that
Dr G 43:24 they have to say something, yes. Speak. No, we’re being oppressed.
Dr Rad 43:28 There aren’t people being, you know, murdered in the streets. So that’s a win as far as that consent, which means strategy, that we have a grand total of 19 Golden Eagles for room this time. I think that’s probably the highest it has been.
Dr G 43:44 I think that’s yeah, it’s pretty good for a while. It’s definitely not a pass. Yeah. But you know, it could have been much worse. Definitely.
Dr Rad 43:56 You go to Summit for 43 BC, a fairly mediocre year.
Dr G 44:04 Classic times for Rome. Yeah.
Dr Rad 44:05 Well, it’s
Dr G 44:06 been a pleasure to speak with you as always, and to learn all about Livy’s account of what’s happening with our data, and how the Romans are really coping with themselves right now.
Dr Rad 44:17 Absolutely. See you next time.
We hope that you have enjoyed listening to this episode of the partial historians, and we would like to send a special thank you to all of our Patreon ‘s out there. And this month, we would like to say a particular hello to Zera, Tamara and Justine, who joined us all the way back in 2020 2020. If you too, would like to become a patreon then please head on over to our page and pledge your support. It really helps with the costs of running the show. In return, you get early access to special episodes and also some new exclusive Patreon only content. However, if you aren’t able to support the show in that way at the moment that is completely fine. You can also help us out by spreading the word about the passion of historians wherever you go, whether it’s in real life or on social media. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Special Episode – Early Rome with Emeritus Professor Tim Cornell
Apr 21, 2022
There is much less scholarly work on the early Roman Republic than there is on periods like the late Republic or early Empire. This is understandable as there are fewer primary sources, and what we have does not always seem quite as reliable. There are still people who have chosen to focus on this era, and one of our major scholarly sources has been the work of Emeritus Professor Tim Cornell.
Special Episode – Early Rome with Emeritus Professor Tim Cornell
Professor Cornell has held many prestigious academic posts in his long career, working at Christ’s College, Cambridge, the British School at Rome, University College London, the University of Birmingham, the Institute of Classical Studies, and he is currently the President of the Society for the Promotion of Roman Studies. His book The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC)(1995) is an incredible resource. Another of his major contributions to scholarship was overseeing the multi-volume Fragments of the Roman Historians(2013) which brings all the fragments of scholars for whose works are not extant together in one collection. In short, Cornell’s work has had a huge influence on the field of early Roman history!
We were blown away that Professor Cornell agreed to sit down and chat to us about all the most confusing parts of early Rome. He helped us to address issues such as:
What were battles really like?
What was the structure of the government in this period?
What on earth was going on with the Conflict of the Orders?
And most importantly, who really is the better historian, Dionysius or Livy?
We hope that you enjoy this episode as much as we enjoyed recording it. It certainly helps to draw together a lot of the themes in our episodes so far and paint a more complete picture of this first phase of the Roman Republic.If you are interested in reading more of Professor Cornell’s work, please check out his profile on Academia.Edu.
Cornell’s work on early Rome is pretty amazing and we recommend you check it out!
View of the Roman Forum from Via di Monte Tarpeo (2017) by Marcel Roblin and courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 124 – The Military Tribunes with Consular Power
Apr 07, 2022
The role of the Military Tribune with Consular Power (tribuni militum consulari potestate) is very particular. It seems to have been created out of the need for a new way forward from the role of the consuls. In our previous episode we encountered them for the first time as part of a patrician plan to placate plebeian discontent in 445 BCE, but our ability to understand this period is complicated by a number of issues:
How much did annalist historians like Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus understand about the early republic?
What sources were they able to consult to verify their research into this unusual feature of Rome’s politics?
And how might their view by further influenced by the ideas they retroject back into the early republic from the Augustan era they are writing under?
Both Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus talk a little bit about their sources around this subject. Livy makes specific reference to the writer Licinius Macer while Dionysius makes note of the discrepancies in the various annalist records.
Episode 124 – The Military Tribunes with Consular Power
As Rome transitions into 444 BCE we find out about our first elected Military Tribunes with Consular Power, but it’s not long before ambassadors from Ardea arrive to discuss their ongoing conflict involving Rome…
Things to listen out for:
A misplaced assertion of proconsular power
A very special eagle sound effect
Some unfortunate problems with the auspices!
Our Players
Military Tribunes with Consular Power 444 BCE
Aulus Sempronius A. f. – n. Atratinus
Lucius Atilius -f. -n. Luscus
Titus Cloelius – f. -n. Siculus
Suffect consuls of 444 BCE
Lucius Papirius – f. – n. Mugillanus
Lucius Sempronius A. f. – n. Atratinus
Interrex 444 BCE
Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbartus (consul many times)
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 11.61-62.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.7.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to BBC Sounds (Beta) for sound effects and the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Imperial Roman Veterans, an illustration by Peter Dennis as part of the Warlord Games ‘Hail Caesar’ miniatures.
Automatically Generated Transcript
We’re exploring transcription options! The transcript below was automatically generated by otter.ai. Hopefully those Latin names and places can still be understood!
Dr Rad 0:00 All right. Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G 0:09 And I am Dr. G. And what a thrill it is to be here for this episode.
Dr Rad 0:15 I know. So we have been tracing the history of Rome from the founding of the city. And last episode was kind of a turning point. So let’s do a bit of a recap, shall we? Dr. G?
Dr G 0:26 Oh, yes. So we’ve had this really sort of quite dramatic moment for the Romans in terms of how they think about their politics. Yes. And for Livy, and Dionysus of helican S’s this issue has been framed around class struggle, patricians versus plebeians. And we’ve had this play for power from the plebeians being like we would like actually to be part of the consulship. That might be nice.
Dr Rad 0:51 And while you’re at it, we’d also like to be able to marry patricians because it seems a bit like segregation, otherwise,
Dr G 0:59 it is awkward. Yeah. To be ruled by people, and for there to be no class mobility. Yes, exactly. And this has led to what appears to be a very dastardly plan on the half of the patrician side, where they’re like, look, it would be absolutely a sacred travesty to allow the plebeians to be consoles, because it’s not just a Magister see of law. It has a ritual component, there are relationships with the gods to be maintained.
Dr Rad 1:33 Get your goofy little bean paws off the consulship.
Dr G 1:36 You’re tainted, you can’t be part of this.
Dr Rad 1:39 This is an us thing, not a wee thing. Yeah.
Dr G 1:43 And so the patricians are a bit like that. And on the other hand, they’ve decided that the crisis is so overwhelming, because Rome is basically facing war on every side true, surrounded by potential enemies, and they really need to raise an army. And they’re like, We need the plebeians involved, because we’ve got to have fodder on the field.
Dr Rad 2:01 Yeah. And they are also much larger group than.
Dr G 2:06 And in order to do that, they need to feel more than two armies, because usually consoles will lead an army each, but two armies is not going to be enough. So they’ve got a numbers issue, both at the command level, and at the rank and file soldier level. Definitely. They’re like, how are we going to solve that? And they come up with a plan, the patricians come up with a cunning plan.
Dr Rad 2:29 Oh, sorry, that’s evil. Well, you know what? I think? I think it goes, I think it goes,
Dr G 2:33 I think you’re in very safe territory. And this cunning plan is to take the concept of the military Tribune, yes. Who is a figure who is kind of selected as they get brought into the army to lead a small group? Yeah. And to give them consular power, not the whole bag, they don’t get to be consoles, you don’t get the title. No, the title is the thing. You don’t get the title, you don’t get the capacity to move into the Senate later on in your career. But if you’re a military Tribune, with consular power, yeah, a bit of a mouthful, I know. But the Romans are into that kind of thing. And that if you hold that position, what happens then is that all of a sudden, you’ve got the capacity to create more numerous armies more than two, yes. And you can send them out in any direction you need to Yeah, and get the stuff done, because they will have the legitimate legal authority, yes, to lead an army.
Dr Rad 3:28 And we spoke last time about how, whilst our sources are very much pushing the idea that this is part of the conflict of the orders. And this is a turning point in the relationship between the patricians and the plebeians and how they see themselves belonging to the Roman state, etc. What most historians definitely see as being the case is that this is also part of just the evolution of Rome as a state in terms of obviously, governments change and systems change as circumstances and demographics change. And so, you know, sure room does seem to have been going through a tough period, if we look at other types of evidence, like archaeological evidence. And so it’s possible that Rome did need to have a sort of regroup moment where they thought, Hmm, how is this all going to work for Rome now, rather than Rome, say, you know, 50 to 100, maybe even a couple of 100 years ago.
Dr G 4:20 And we’re seeing that sense in which Rome is in a constant state of change. Yes. And obviously, this runs in direct contrast to the things that the patricians really like we choose tradition and stability.
Dr Rad 4:33 Imagine, imagine in 2022 this words, they just seem so alien coming out of your mouth,
Dr G 4:40 tradition and stability. That is what we will provide patricians. Yeah.
Dr Rad 4:44 So this decision to allow for military tribunals with consular authority, as well as the fact that they did indeed overturn this marriage law, which forbid the intermarriage of patricians and plebeians. Apparently, it does. actually appears that A, B and C and levies account. So that does actually it is balm to the wound.
Dr G 5:05 Yes, I’m interested in what Libby thinks about this because it plays out in a very particular way in Dionysius of Halicarnassus. And I definitely want to tell you about it, but I’m keen to understand what Levy’s perspective.
Dr Rad 5:18 Okay, so, essentially, the way that it starts to unfold is that there are these elections which take place, obviously, once they’ve decided that this can be a thing. And the idea is that you could choose three of these tributes with consular power. So lots of Colombians are running around trying to rally support for themselves because they’re just so excited. Oh, my God, I could do it. I could do it. I’m going to the prom. They’re wearing their target candy. It is. I think you get a slight patrician bias coming through Levy’s account. Not yet. Not that. Yeah. But yeah, it is that sort of upper class bias. I should perhaps say where he’s kind of like, you can’t believe that this is happening. It’s so doubloon. Yeah. And he obviously sees these people as being troublemakers the way that he talks about them. He’s like, these troublemakers. You know, they’ve done nothing but bad things for the state and look at them in their target can’t do this. It’s rope bolting. Anyway, the patrician Nobody’s Fool.
Dr G 6:16 Nobody’s Fool. Yeah.
Dr Rad 6:17 They’re patricians. Looking around as well, and kind of horror and I think they’re a bit lost. It’s like getting punched in the face and someone ran away. Because it’s so much for being competition because they’re all so excited. And because they bringing so much energy because it’s safer selection guys. And they think, Oh, God, we really want to like, I don’t know, like work with Cool beans. That seems not ideal. And so they’re not so keen on standing for office. They can like, you know, just take myself out of this situation.
Dr G 6:47 I don’t need to stand this year. I’m out. Yeah,
Dr Rad 6:51 it’s not my thing. The patrician leading patricians, I should say, however, they’re like, Guys, you can’t just step aside and let the Libyans run the show that would look like the patricians are just getting off on Rome all together and out of the government,
Dr G 7:06 so don’t like it anymore. And I’m not gonna do it.
Dr Rad 7:09 Well, they end up being convinced that Yeah, yeah. So as we have to represent, and then of course, it this is all just farcical because when the election actually rolls around, it shows that people just wanted the option of having fob and to rule the state. What? Because the people all elect patricians to be these military Tribune’s according to his account.
Dr G 7:34 This doesn’t make any sense. Yeah,
Dr Rad 7:36 I know. It’s look, it’s a bit. But anyway, so yeah, that’s kind of how it all my fees account
Dr G 7:46 how, what an anti climax I have to say,
Dr Rad 7:48 Yeah, but it’s gonna get worse in the next year. This is just rounding off for 45. All right.
Dr G 7:53 All right. So to that end, in comparison, there seems to be a good synergy and parallel between Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Okay, basically, the people the plebeians, love this idea of this military tributary with control of power like this is their way in and they’re like, Yes, take that opportunity with both hands. Yes, people do heaps of canvassing, they’re having a great time. The plebeians kind of look at their own going around and nominating themselves for the position and they like you’re an idiot, I would never vote for you. I’d been out with you on cap just not gonna happen. I’ve seen what you’ve done. And so even though the plebeians are now sort of like looking at their own with the possibility of being able to vote the meat, they can’t bring themselves to do it. Okay. And so, I mean, it’s just massive, dramatic irony, I think. Because we’ve got this situation where they’re like, Oh, well, actually, I mean, I’m going to vote for who I think is the best candidate. And lo and behold, it turns out that they all vote for patricians. They’ve got more experience. They’ve been in the role before, you know, they’ve had that high level command, what whatever they come from a distinguished military family. So you know, presumably, being a good general has been passed down through the ages. Yeah. And it’s just baffling. Having said that, some of the names that come through for this we have not seen before.
Dr Rad 9:17 Oh, are we going to go into 444 BCE? Well, not yet. No. Oh, really? Okay. The names are minor and 444 BC, and I was going to do a little
Dr G 9:26 let’s do a little doodly doo. I think it’s a good time for doodly doo. Okay. Who gets voted in new say, Yeah, well, I’ve got some names for you. Okay. I’ve got candidates, men of distinction, namely, all a sudden peroneus at her rottenness,
Dr Rad 9:47 yeah, that’s a weird name. Yeah. Huh. at 13 at 13 atheria. Tina’s Yeah,
Dr G 9:52 Lucien Achilleas. Loose kiss Hmm. Bit of a mouthful as well.
Dr Rad 9:58 Hey, there’s remember names that sound like me. case.
Dr G 10:02 And Titus, clue alias Siculus.
Dr Rad 10:05 I also have those names down in my account. And even though they are allegedly or patrician, some of those names Dr. G,
Dr G 10:14 some of these names we have not seen before holding high office. So there might be some speculation to be had about who these people really are. Yeah. But that’s nevertheless what we told. Indeed, Dionysius then does this weird thing. And it’s it comes through in the translation. So I don’t know if I should blame him directly or, or blame the translator. But he calls these men that assume Pro Concealer power. Oh, but there’s a bit of a mistake here. So I want to just give a bit of a pause, because this is a term that people hear all the time when they’re doing Roman history. Pro Concealer power. Yeah. What is that? Exactly?
Dr Rad 10:53 I don’t think we’ve really talked about that. Because that’s comes in much late comes in much later. Yeah,
Dr G 10:57 so it’s really misplaced here. And that should be the first flag definitely, that when we’re not in the period of history where we understand Pro Controller power to be happening. No. And yet it creeps in in Dionysius, because we’ve got this bit of a retro reaction happening. This is how he’s understanding it, or interpreting it for his audience to appreciate what this power is. Well, I
Dr Rad 11:17 can see the similarity with military children’s with concealer power, and what a Proconsul essentially has. Yeah, yeah.
Dr G 11:23 So when we’re talking about Pro Concealer, power comes from the Latin phrase pro con su li, which means instead of the consoles, right, that’s essentially its basic thing. So there are a state official who exercises controller power. So that is Imperium. Yeah. So that’s the basic side of things, not the ritual side of things. Yeah. Outside of the city. But importantly, they’re not allowed to consult the auspices, right? So they can’t look for special signs,
Dr Rad 11:50 which would track with what military tribunes with consular authority was trying to avoid in the first place, which is plebeians doing things like taking your services?
Dr G 11:59 Well, the thing is that as far as we can tell, the military Tribune’s with controller power could consult the auspices interesting
Dr Rad 12:05 Well, then why not just make them consoles never.
Dr G 12:09 That’s not how it works.
Dr Rad 12:15 Oh, God room room.
Dr G 12:18 It’s the thing is that the military tribunes with consular power is all about keeping replicating the Bolivian Yes, but also keeping them out of class advancement. So yes, not being able to get into the Senate. Yeah, not being able to progress by stealth as it were into the patrician class. What. Wait a minute. I’m noticing like, oh, yeah, we’ll have another that patricians don’t want that. Yeah. But they do have the capacity to do this almost beside of things concerning the organs is something they’re allowed to do, apparently.
Dr Rad 12:56 Okay. The reason why I’m confused is because in case anybody remembers from previous episode, the patricians were kicking up such a stink about them becoming consoles, because of things like, you know, consulting the auspices. Am I wrong? Am I miss remembering?
Dr G 13:11 No, I don’t think so. Yeah, and yet, so this piece of information has come in part from studies that have been done on this position, right. So there is a little bit of confusion, not gonna lie. Yeah. But and we have these two threads, like these separate threads coming together, where we’ve got Libyan Dionysius telling us that, you know, these consular military Tribune’s shouldn’t be able to engage in ritual activity, and that’s part of the deal. We want to keep them away from that side of things. Yes. But that doesn’t seem to be necessarily the case. Looking around the whole thing. Yeah. And so this is part of the problem. So I think this is a point for argument. And its potential that scholars are going to disagree on it as well. But certainly, they don’t have the capacity to then gain entry into the Senate. Yeah. Which is kind of like a thing. That would be nice. And they’re not allowed to hold a triumph. Right. You know, there are certain limitations on what they’re able to do. Okay. So that’s, yeah, they’re not exactly consoles, I guess. And, and then we get to this situation where we’ve all of a sudden, we’ve got these three military tributes or controller power, and they’re all patrician, apparently. Yes. And then we have this situation where something seems to have gone wrong with the auspices. Yeah, well, I mean, almost instantly, something goes wrong with yours. But yeah, I mean,
Dr Rad 14:40 as you said, like I get the sense that 444 BC set it off quite smoothly in that, you know, this the internal situation with Rome is settling down. And I guess with these, you know, three military attributes they’re anticipating they will use them to go to war with they as well to deal with the eight queens in the valskis as well. has to do with the revolted idea. But exactly as you’ve highlighted, they are not in power for more than sort of three months.
Dr G 15:08 They don’t do anything. They really power for 73 days, apparently. Wow. That’s very precise. Yeah. Thanks, Dionysus. Yeah. 73 days and then they have to voluntarily resign. Yeah. Because the omens haven’t worked out the omens prevent them from being able to continue engaging in public business.
Dr Rad 15:28 Yes. And it’s the augers. Yeah, who seemed to have pointed out that there was a problem with the election. And the problem was, that guy is courteous. Guys courteous. Who was apparently, you know, the guy in charge, did not correctly choose the ground for his tent for this. Damn, it was about pitching a tent and the wrong place. Oh, I
Dr G 15:55 have to say on this, I think, yeah, that I sense a bit of a conspiracy from the patrician,
Dr Rad 16:03 it would seem that way that they
Dr G 16:07 don’t want this to happen. And they’re finding alternative means to make it impossible. Yeah. Like, what are the chances after all of these years of pitching the tent in the right spot in the right way? This would be the year that somebody fluffed it.
Dr Rad 16:23 Yeah. I’ll just explain quickly as well. What this whole tent businesses because that probably sounds like they’re probably you know, like going camping or something like that. No, quiet. We’re talking about something that I believe the technical term is a tabernacle. Mmm hmm. Which was erected over the templum and it basically marked out where the ceremony was going to take place. And there was some sort of opening in the roof through which you could observe and look for the flight of the birds. Okay, sounds good. Yeah, if you didn’t do it properly, you’re in trouble. Can’t see the bird. Yeah.
Dr G 17:00 You’re in a bit of a bird doo doo.
Dr Rad 17:02 Hello, Alfred Hitchcock. I’m having trouble with my
Dr G 17:09 so problems a foot those guys leave pretty
Dr Rad 17:11 early. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, some years.
Dr G 17:15 They are replaced. Lo and behold, surprise, surprise by consoles. Yes. Indeed. And so that leaves us and we’re in a roundabout. What seems to be for me is the date is not at all clear. I’ll be I’ll be level with me. This
Dr Rad 17:29 is definitely 444 BCE. Yeah,
Dr G 17:32 it’s 444. But maybe it’s 441. Okay, well, Dionysus gives us the great dates and they are the names of the Archons. And that doesn’t tally up to where we are in the Roman numerical system as we’ve been sort of going through it anyway. Never mind that. We’ve got new consoles they’re called Suffolk consoles because they don’t take the year name yes, yes. They are. Lucius purpureus Muga Lana’s disgusting name and Lucia sim peroneus. At rat Tina’s another one of those Yeah, so if you’ve thought that name sounds vaguely awkward and familiar, that’s because his brother always was one of these military Tribune’s with consular power who just had to resign.
Dr Rad 18:28 I’m just going to add in a little bit of extra detail here don’t CFA, please there is actually dispute in my account about whether consoles or military tribunals should take the place of the guys that had to step down so they are not letting it go without a fight. Okay. And there is actually an interacts in this in Levy’s account while they’re obviously deciding what they want to do and then also holding the elections because otherwise there’s you know, nobody there, and who should be chosen as the interacts? none other but our old friend, Titus quinque DS capital liners, Bob barters,
Dr G 19:02 ah, the bearded man,
Dr Rad 19:04 he has held the consulship many, many times for those who are keeping score at home.
Dr G 19:11 Well, you definitely have more detail than me. Dionysius does mention that we’ve got an interacts doesn’t say who it is, but that there is a swirling sort of conversation going on about whether there should be consoles or more military tribute. Yeah, given the situation. It hasn’t gone. Well, the first time around. Yeah, maybe the gods don’t agree.
Dr Rad 19:32 Yeah, well, I think I think that in Levy’s account, he talks about the fact that even though they did fight over this, it seems like the Libyans kind of give up a little bit because, with the patricians, having been chosen to be the first set of military Tribune’s, I think the tribute is in the clubs have had the wind taken out of their sails a little bit. And so they’re kind of like, well, I guess it’s probably going to be patricians, who are military Tribune’s or console So, you know, whatever, what is kind of the point in a sense, and they’d also rather be part an election where they actually, you know, really counted as serious candidates rather than an election where people were looking at them going you you’re inferior, you’re gross. Get off the stage. Yeah,
Dr G 20:20 yeah. Look, I feel for this period for the analyst historians that we’re reading. Yeah. So Levy and Dionysius, I don’t think they’ve got too much information to go on, or at least the story as they give it to us, doesn’t feel like it adds up very well.
Dr Rad 20:36 No. And that’s probably because they’re making something that was probably quite complex and maybe slightly lengthier process. And you know, what they’re telling us it was, they’re making it maybe a little bit tidier, a bit a bit neater, a little bit more compacted than it perhaps. And I
Dr G 20:51 think they’re trying to find their way through while also keeping their allegiances and political, their own political perspective. in tact.
Dr Rad 20:58 Oh, I believe there’s definitely an elite perspective coming through my account to see
Dr G 21:03 likewise, yes. And so and Dionysius does let us know that there are some problems with the annalistic records that he’s been consulting and interesting for this period. Okay. He’s like some of these people are not recorded in all of the animals, right? These names don’t crop up everywhere. So we’ve already got some gaps, and we don’t know how to feel them. And we also get a sense in which there’s some confusion about who is holding what position? Are these people military tribunes, with control of power? Or are they consoles, right? We’re not really quite sure when we start comparing the different animals. And so this means that Dionysius is telling us that he’s going out and he’s looking at these different lists. Yes. of who’s doing what, in what year? Yeah. And he’s like, look, the lists are not congruent, depending on which list you’re looking at. Yeah, we’ve got some issues here. So he’s telling us he’s doing his research. Yeah, he’s also acknowledging that he’s not really sure what to make of the gaps that he’s coming across. Well,
Dr Rad 22:03 to be honest, I would rather that he did that Ben pretended that everything was fine. And interestingly, levy also has a bit of a moment like this, but it comes through in a little anecdote, he tells us about our data. Do you have anything about our day? Or shall I
Dr G 22:17 please go into our day, or I have a little okay, but you go.
Dr Rad 22:20 So whilst all of this stuff is going on, internally, ambassadors from a day I arrived in Rome, basically continuing to bitch about the decisions that the Romans had made. If you’re not sure what decision I’m talking about, please see some of our previous episodes. But basically, the Romans had made a terrible decision territorially, by the day, it’s been a bit greedy and taken it for themselves.
Dr G 22:39 They had taken our day off, and I’ll do the local elders and people were not happy about that. No. And historically, they’re different from a different language group. They’re quite a unique people. They’re not far from Rome. But they definitely don’t want to be Roman. Yeah. And the Romans took their land, it was kind of like, deal with it. And the audience were like, no, yeah. And conflict ensued. Yeah. So
Dr Rad 23:00 the Romans are aware that because not everyone was in favour of the decision to take their territory, the Romans are aware that the idea is have a just claim to restoring their land. And they can also tell that the people of IDEO will stick to the treaty that they had with Rome and remain like a friendly people if the right decision is made.
Dr G 23:21 Oh, ouch. Okay. Yes. Yeah.
Dr Rad 23:23 Well, I mean, they’re not so much saying this. I think it’s just that it’s clear that this is the situation, you know, they’re obviously just unhappy at this temporary situation. It doesn’t have to be this way. But the Senate felt that well, the people did make this decision, and we never overturned a firm decision of the people. Plus, it’s really awkward time ambassadors, because we’ve only just tried to you know, appease the plebeians. It’s really tense between the patricians lovely hands right now might not be the right time to set a precedent for overturning a decision made by the people. And so they asked her a little bit more time, and they promised the audience that they won’t be sorry, if they have been patient, they just need more time to talk to the people. And is it this moment that they sorted out all their internal stuff? So it’s at this moment that that election of consoles and everything takes place, and you got an interact and all of that kind of stuff? Once all of that stuff is sorted? They end up having the treaty or with that day out, renewed? Okay. And this is where Livi brings up documentation? Oh, yeah. Because he talks about the document of the of this treaty without without data, and he talks about the fact that it proves that these men that we talked about as coming in as the stuff that consoles did serve as consoles, even though their names were not included in ancient annals old list of magistrates, okay. And he talks about the fact that okay, well, maybe their names were included, because the year began with military tributes and therefore there was some confusion about whether to include They’re in Arizona or whatever. And he also says that he was using like cuneus Mecca or Mesa if you want to have a soft see there. He mentions him saying that these were the names of the men that were on the treaty with idea and that these are the names also found in the linen rolls held in the temple of Munna, moneta? I think it is. Oh, yeah. I presume that this is the temple of Juno moneta, which was erected on the Capitoline Hill in 344. Okay, yeah. And, yes, I mean, just a little bit of extra detail. I believe that this also later helps to room and mint.
Dr G 25:38 Yeah, no, that’s very cool. Yeah. So Liv is telling us that one, he’s done more research. He’s gone and looked for additional documents beyond the animals, because it does make sense that the consoles of this year would their names would not be recorded in the animals. Yes. Because they’re not serving as the first concealer magistrate. Yes. And so they could have been left off, particularly if the Romans this is kind of like a rare thing to have happened. Yeah. It’s like, how do the Romans navigate that? They don’t have a way of doing that yet? Yes. They haven’t formed their tradition, as it were, indeed, and this temple. So I mean, we’re looking at a temple that’s built nearly 100 years later.
Dr Rad 26:23 Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s obviously that sounds really suspicious, but Livy is also writing hundreds of years after the temple was Oh,
Dr G 26:32 yeah. disputing that it might contain it might end up containing pieces of writing that are 100 years old. Yes, yes. But yeah, it’s obviously it’s a tricky thing as well, like how that preservation is happening.
Dr Rad 26:43 Yeah. And it’s not clear. Livy doesn’t make it 100% clear that he personally saw the treaty with our day. I think I get more of the impression that maybe it’s like cuneus maker or Licinius. Mesa, you want to say
Dr G 26:57 he’s reading mesa. And he’s phasers.
Dr Rad 27:01 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And the linen rolls might be the thing, I suppose that maybe insulted but given that that temple which is erected in Rome, you know, live is not rubies, not Roman, is not renowned for going travelling for source material. But he’s also not It’s not impossible that he, you know, he
Dr G 27:24 sorted I suppose he moved on. He may. Yeah, maybe he went on a research jaunt.
Dr Rad 27:29 Maybe he did. We have we have done that.
Dr G 27:33 So I think that kind of wraps up this relatively complicated year of 444.
Dr Rad 27:40 It does. And even though we had all this threat of warfare live, he is very clear that actually things are pretty calm. Even though there are threats. There are threats, but there’s no actual warfare.
Dr G 27:51 Yeah, it’s kind of amazing how it seems that everything is built up in this sense of the threat coming from all directions. And yet, we don’t hear anything about any of those enemies really advancing on Rome, and even our data sends ambassadors first. It’s like, they’re not going to war yet. They’re having a preliminary discussion decide whether it’s worth their time.
Dr Rad 28:11 Yeah, no, exactly. It is like, Oh, my God, the tension is built to such a feat of pitch and nothing and nothing nothing,
Dr G 28:18 which also may make one suspicious.
Dr Rad 28:21 Yeah, I think so. But, you know, we know that that’s the kind of pattern that our accounts tend to follow the drama of it all indeed. Alright, so that means that Dr. G, I think it is time for
the personal pick covering for me that I left my phone in the other room.
Dr G 28:45 I am the sound effect.
Dr Rad 28:47 Alright, so our first category is Well, I hope you terrible. fifth category is military cloud
Dr G 29:01 military cloud. I think that’s a big fat. Oh, look, let’s explain where we office. Yeah, they could win. Rome could win 50 Golden Eagle. It could be very impressive. Yeah. Chances are they won’t because I’m about to give them zero on the first category. That’s right. No military clout whatsoever.
Dr Rad 29:17 No, there’s none of that. Alright. Expansion.
Dr G 29:21 Oh, that’s.
Dr Rad 29:23 Well, although, I mean, they do restore the treaty. But maybe they
Dr G 29:28 expand their mind.
Dr Rad 29:30 Diplomacy. Oh, well, I
Dr G 29:32 suppose the treaty does count as something and there is quite a diplomatic moment there isn’t there?
Dr Rad 29:37 I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So I think maybe I mean, it it’s a diplomatic moment that the room is a almost creating for themselves because they made such a terrible decision. I don’t want to go too high. Yeah, but maybe a five. I think a five is good. Yeah. Okay. So we’ve got a five and
Dr G 29:54 also they kind of make that decision on the back of not wanting to upset the people that are already very upset.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Mini Episode – Beware the Ides of Jon Snow…
Mar 15, 2022
The most famous assassination in Roman history took place during the Ides of March. Julius Caesar, dictator of Rome, was stabbed to death in Pompey’s Senate House by a group of conspirators. What exactly were these men hoping to accomplish? Caesar had been taking up too much air-time and was changing the nature of the Republic into something suspiciously close to monarchy. Well, you can’t have that! What are the other elite Roman men supposed to do if one man rules all?
Since 44 BCE, this assassination has inspired and perhaps plagued many political theorists, filmmakers, playwrights, artists, politicians, and historians. Dr G and Dr Rad sat down to talk about a twenty-first century example of the reverberations of Caesar’s final moments across the centuries. The murder of Jon Snow in the season five finale of Game of Thrones was clearly modelled on the death of the Roman dictator.
Enjoy this mini bonus episode!
Mini Episode – Beware the Ides of Jon Snow…
If this episode tickles your fancy for a little more classical reception, we have explored lots of depictions of ancient Rome on film, which you might enjoy as well 🙂
The Renaissance bust of Julius Caesar by Andrea di Pietro di Marco Ferrucci c. 1512-14 and a still of Kit Harrington as Jon Snow
Episode 123 – The Turning Point
Mar 10, 2022
Rome seems to be an impasse. Facing war on all fronts and with escalating crisis between the patricians and the plebeians the place of Rome in the Italian world is at the brink. It’s 445 BCE and the republic is still young enough to fail. How will Rome face the chaos coming at them from outside while weakened from their own internal conflict? Tune in to find out!
Episode 123 – The Turning Point
Secret Meetings
In order to get Rome motivated for war, the internal problems need to be resolved first. What better time then for some of the more senior Romans (who also just happen to be patrician) to get together for a clandestine meeting… Some important decisions are reached but despite the secrecy of the meeting, it does not go unnoticed. Is Rome really more of an oligarchy than it likes to think it is?
Canuleius’ Speech
On the other side of town, the tribune of the plebs, Gaius Canuelius, is getting fired up about the restrictive marriage laws that are part of the Twelve Tables. And boy does he have a speech to make about it! He digs deep into Rome’s history right back to the kings to explain to the plebeians how their exclusion from marriage to patricians is offensive. He explores the way Rome is in a process of constant adaption and change with examples to support his case that excluding plebeians is insupportable.
Military Tribunes with Consular Power
In a time of great struggle innovation becomes a necessity. With Rome facing threats from just about every direction, the consuls won’t be able to be everywhere they are needed commanding armies. Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus view the development of military tribunes with consular power as part of the patricians trying to placate the plebeians. But is there more to it than that? We delve into the background of the role, what it means for the structure of Roman governance, and compare the sources on the subject.
Tune in for
The suggestion that the plebeians have the right to introduce laws
Dastardly plans from the the patricians
Some weighty demands for the repel of the marriage ban and access to governing power for the plebeians
A shocking moment of patricians conceding to the plebeians!
Our Players
Consuls 445 BCE
M. Genucius – f. – n. Augurinus – Pat.
C. (or Agripp.) Curtius – f. – n. Philo (or Chilo) Pat.
Notable Patricians
Gaius Claudius, uncle of the infamous Appius Claudius
Titus Quinctius L. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus
L. Valerius P. f. P. n. Potitus (Poplicola?) – Pat.
M. Horatius M. f. L. (or P.) n. Barbatus
Titus Genucius, the brother of the consul!
Tribune of the Plebs
C. Canuleius
C. Furnius
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 11.55-60.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.2-6.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to BBC Sounds (Beta) for sound effects and the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
Joseph Gandy c. 1830 – A Scene in Ancient Rome: A Setting for Titus Andronicus, I, ii. An imagined view of Rome from a much grander period of history than what we’d expect to find in the fifth century BCE! See this picture up close here.
Automatic Transcript
We’re exploring transcription options! The transcript below was automatically generated by Descript and can also be accessed here. Hopefully those Latin names and places can still be understood!
Dr Rad00:01
Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians, where we trace the history of Rome from the founding of the city. I’m one of your hosts, Dr. Rad, and
Dr G00:12
I am Dr. G and we are in the thrilling year of 445.
Dr Rad00:18
Yeah. This is a big year. We’ve had a few years since 449, the year that never ended as we were talking about the second December and the 12 tables and the second succession and all that stuff is going on. Now, it comes to another bump that year. And it’s a really big year because there’s lots of gums going under it to G
Dr G00:37
there’s lots of conflict and how this conflict gets resolved. Fascinating. So we’re in the console ship of Marcus good nucleus and Gaia’s courteous Chilo or Kylo. And so far, we’ve had a bit of a situation where the Tribune of the plebs have come out and they’ve started to demand some pretty rigorous changes.
They want a marriage law change. And they would also like to have half the console ship, please.
Dr Rad01:08
Yes, very much about the land rights because of the marriage law they want changed is the second December it. And the 12 tables had added this ban on marriage between Patricia and simple beings. Seemingly part of this process that as patricians were sort of coring, more status and more power inside of room for themselves and way of doing that is obviously to make themselves.
Very special in terms of their bloodline. And of course the console ship deck, it’s like the most prestigious, obviously you can hold. Yeah.
Dr G01:37
And so, and the plebeians now want half, they, like, we want one console out of the two to be plebeian. Well, this throws the Senate and the current consoles into a bit of a tailspin.
And while they’re trying to cope with their feelings about. It turns out that just about everywhere around Roy is exploding with conflict and it’s coming for Rome. So we’ve got the Etruscans from veil coming down. We’ve got people from our data being annoyed about the way that their territory has just been claimed by Rome.
The previous year we’ve got the aqueous and the Wolski. Also quite irritated. And so Rome is facing war on just about every front and can imagine while at the same time facing this internal conflict with the attribute of the plebs refusing to allow the levy of the army to happen and to they get some, at least some preliminary decrees passed that are going to improve the lot of the plebeians over time.
Dr Rad02:39
Absolutely. So without further ado, Dr. G, let’s see how this whole situation revolves asset. So without further ado, Dr. G, let’s see how this whole situation resolves itself by checking out the wrist of 4 45 BC.
All right. So I left on quite a tense moment in my account where the consoles of throwing the toys out of the prime. And they’ve said that they would rather die than see, put beans in the console ship, the Tribune so said that they would rather die than not get this law. That’s going to overturn the marriage.
And demanding half of the console ship through, they’re not going to let people enlist in the army. So that’s a pretty,
Dr G03:24
everybody’s going to die.
Dr Rad03:25
Yeah. That’s not a great situation to be in what’s happening in Dionysius land.
Dr G03:30
Well, in dynasties of how it can asses the consoles have made the decision that in order to try and figure some of this stuff out, it’s probably a good time to have a private meeting with some key patricians okay.
They’re going to sneak off. Bit of a chat all by themselves. Now this is, I mean, having a private chat is not a bad thing. People can do that, but this is going to upset some people, one of the key people who is invited to attain this secret get together is Gaius Koreas.
Dr Rad04:03
Oh my gosh. I could just get through, I don’t know, six months without hearing a Claudius mentioned.
Dr G04:13
So guidance Claudius famously the uncle of the highly disgraced, uh, Appian Claudius of the December period.
Dr Rad04:23
He’s one of the guys that introduced this law apparently.
Dr G04:27
Well, well, well, fancy him being invited to the secret meeting.
Dr Rad04:32
I mean, sorry, obviously it’s introduced a little hot guys.
Dr G04:35
Yeah. So guys Cornelius is here and the Claudia are famed for being quite arrogant, um, highly traditional, uh, patrician.
Dr Rad04:44
Vintage patrician. Patricians that we love to hate.
Dr G04:50
And he’s a key motivating features in his speech in this private gathering is. And use violence isn’t necessary.
Dr Rad04:59
You know what? I could have seen that coming a mile away
Dr G05:03
shall be given to those Patricians. They go to a corrupt, everything, um, and they’ll ruin the ancient form of the government and people who oppose the ancient form of the government, uh, enemies of the state and alien.
Dr Rad05:23
Wow. Okay. Hang on a second. Hang on a second. Ancient form of the government. Are they forgetting that their public is only about 50 years old at this stage? Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t
Dr G05:33
matter, guys. Claudia’s is pretty keen on the idea. And you see this crop up with, um, groups that are highly nationalist. It’s like if you criticize us and you’re not.
Then you are against us and you’re our enemy and you’re not one of us. You are an alien to us. So it’s like, you can’t be part of the Inc group, unless you agree with exactly everything that we’ve already
Dr Rad05:57
done. Yeah. Which is a huge problem in today’s society as well. Because if you don’t learn to talk to and compromise with people who are different to you, we are never going to fix the very serious challenges that face our world.
Dr G06:13
Yes. Well, Gaia’s Claudius today would be helping nobody. Um, this meeting continues, uh, he sits down and he said his peace. Uh, he gets to talk pretty much first because he’s one of the oldest guys around and being an Accordi I’m sure he would put his case. Totally. And then we have Titus Queens. Stand
Dr Rad06:33
up.
Yeah. Is this capital land? This guy,
Dr G06:36
this is, yeah. Try squint his capital on his boat bottles. So when you imagine this guy, you have to imagine he’s got a nice beard. Yeah. He gets up, he was the console of 4 46. Um, so you guys successful? Yeah. It does have a right to. And he’s also held the console ship four times hugely popular as a console.
Absolutely. And he says that violence is probably not the answer because that would be civil bloodshed. Um, yeah,
Dr Rad07:03
we kind of need the people to fight out numerous entities. I mean, remember how we were all panicking a minute ago, because we’ve got three different. France to
Dr G07:12
deal with. And he’s like, we can assume that that’s not our ideal.
Um, if we kill them and they fight for us, I can’t assume we can
Dr Rad07:22
assume. That’s not going to say about assumptions.
Dr G07:26
Never assume. Never say. And he’s also black, notably, we’re always going to be opposed by the tribunes. Yes. Um, you know, they are sacrifice. In many respects and they swim very serious. Oh. So we have to take all of that into account.
We can’t just wait in there and do the yield. Nothing use violence, if necessary attitude sort of approach. That’s not going to work here. It’s not going to get us what we want.
Dr Rad07:55
This is why this guy’s popular because whilst he is completely patrician through and through at least he’s smart. Yeah. He’s not an idiot and he’s not so hotline.
That yeah. Violence is the main thing that he’s going to suggest,
Dr G08:09
but white Ford then Claudius is like, okay, look, I take your point. Uh, which is pretty big of him to be honest. Cause usually it doesn’t take anybody
Dr Rad08:18
to make maybe the fact that, you know, Accurus was murdered or died by suicide, his dad and his enthusiasm.
Dr G08:28
It was trying to temper himself. Yeah, exactly. And it’s a private meeting, so he feels like he can speak openly. I’m not unaware of the great calamities that we face just to put it out there. And I think it’s important that every man should be able to say. About what he thinks will be to, uh, to the advantage of the state.
Um, and then we’ll have the decision made by the majority. Now that’s weird. They were in a private meeting of select patricians and consoles. They’re like a secret meeting. There’s a secret meeting and he’s like, well, as long as we all agree and the majority comes to a decision, that’s
Dr Rad09:06
fine. Is he need, does he need the Senate?
Does he mean like the widest Senate or it’s not at all clear. Surely he doesn’t mean. No,
Dr G09:13
no, no. He means Patricia. Um, and he then goes on to say, Only the patricians are alone, are qualified by both law and ritual practice to
Dr Rad09:25
hold the console ship. Ah, I see. So, okay. So Danny says, essentially put the words that are in Livy as like a general comment from the patricians about their special position in society into the mouth of someone specific.
Yeah, it was horrifying who it matches the reputation of his family.
Dr G09:47
Further to this. He’s like, what about if we propose an alternative?
Dr Rad09:54
Uh, ha lessening listening. Here
Dr G09:57
we go. What if instead of the two consoles, we appoint six military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad10:08
Ah, I see. You’re you’re you’re jumping ahead of me.
Okay. Yeah.
Dr G10:13
Only three of them could be patrician. And the other three could be plebeian.
Dr Rad10:19
I don’t for one hot second, I believe that a Claudia suggested I sorry,
Dr G10:24
but then wait for the rationale. The beauty of this is that we offer them consular power without debasing the consulate position.
Dr Rad10:38
How is that not debating, is
Dr G10:40
it because instead of invoke, instead of voting in, in the next year, instead of voting in two consoles, it’s like, let’s vote in six military tribunes with concierge
Dr Rad10:51
power, right.
I actually mean cause the title is different. The title is different. Yeah.
Dr G10:56
And some stuff about that is going to be very specific and interesting and different as well. So that’s the teaser of. I’ll stop there. Okay. I see what Libby has to say.
Dr Rad11:07
Well, see, this is where the differences in our account, make it a little tricky to tell a cohesive story, because as we talked about last episode, Libby does talk about these sorts of issues and I will get to where you’re up to, but he’s also very concerned about the intermediary,
Dr G11:28
but wait up guys, what about the intermarriage
Dr Rad11:31
law?
Which makes sense because everything that they’re using as an argument for opposing plebeians in the console ship, or that idea about purity and prestige of the patrician. Cos, if you want to call them that eats very much what they’re worried about with intermarriage as well. So prepare yourself to JT.
There is a beanbag in this room
Dr G11:54
because well, I have to put my face
Dr Rad11:56
into it when you might have to fall into it. Oh, faint. Because levy has a long speech. Oh yeah. Oh, I’m excited.
Dr G12:05
Now one speech. This is unprecedented.
Dr Rad12:09
It’s really. Okay, but I think it’s important because he doesn’t often have these sorts of speeches.
So it’s also putting the mouth of the Tribune of the plebs, the one who had apparently proposed the bill to overturn the marriage ban and to put for beans into the console ship can no less. So he dresses the people at this very tense moment where neither side seems like they’re going to give in, you know, life or death.
It’s just like, no, we’re not going to do this. So he starts talking to the people and says, The patricians clearly hate plebeians. I mean, why else would they make our lives so difficult? Now look, maybe the majority of Roman people don’t have the same amount of money that the patricians have, but at the end of the day, we have Romans too.
We live here too. This is our town. Oh, where requests. First and foremost is the right of intermarriage, which he, interestingly notes, people who aren’t from Rome could be granted. So yeah, enemies, that room had defeated. They’re allowed to marry. Patricians gross. What about the blood lines? But this is what he’s pointing out is patricians are able to marry.
People who aren’t Ruben who are even defeated, enemies, been one earth, shouldn’t the plebeians have that same, right? Why are the consoles and the patricians and the centers all getting so upset? Why they even making threats? I get the, I guess, the Sacra sanctuary of the trivia, which has only just been restored in the aftermath of the second December and the second session, 12 tables and all of that, you know, why, why are they finding this?
So. Ah, and oh, I’m not anyway needs anyway. Need done? Good. You ladies wonders. Eighth of the beans had actually realized just how little respect the patricians really.
Dr G14:15
I’m pretty sure they’ve realized
Dr Rad14:17
time for a reality check can kind of be brutal. I’m going to be brutal. So he’s pointing out that the way that they’ve responded to this request about the concert.
It’s almost as though they’ve asked to put a slave or a Friedman in command to the state. So it disgusted the patricians. And so he’s like, do you get that? That’s like insulting. Like they called you a month, you know, do you, do you get that? Because if you don’t, I’m here to bring reality to you. So the patricians he claimed.
The goal in life is to take everything from a even, and this is just hilarious thing would take the sunshine away if they could. Oh, that’s quite poetic. So Patricia essentially start asking you, at least as concerned, resent the existence of the pavilions. They resent them, the oxygen, they breathe, they resent their right of speech.
They resent the fact that they look the same. We call them, tell them a book, Sterling. Yeah, it’s all terrible. And they just hate them through and through. And this is why he starts going into some interesting backstory as well. He’s asking about the fact that the pole beans, if they’re not allowed to do things like consult the phone, All the commentaries of the pontiffs, then that knowledge is being held from them.
And again, apparently knowledge that even foreign is, could potentially access more easily than I have some
Dr G15:48
pretty big questions for Olivia. At this point, I feel like it’s very unlikely that they’re going to allow foreigners to rock up and have a look at the sacred texts that relate to the participant.
And then just go away
Dr Rad15:59
again. Listen, this is exactly it. I mean, who knows if maybe they’re talking about like during particular ceremonies, but yet it’s interesting that he makes that, that comment, maybe you can, at least is getting a little carried away here, but anyway,
Dr G16:15
we’re talking about the Etruscans possibly have a right to have a look at those books because they were part of them being written
Dr Rad16:21
and they’re also better at interpreting science apparently.
So, yeah, that’s what I mean, like. Who knows who the who’s been invited in to have a peak foreign dignitaries and
Dr G16:34
want to check out
Dr Rad16:34
my secret text. And this is where he starts going all the way back to the Regal period. So he’s really digging deep here. He’s pointing out something that we noted when we covered.
Time period. Roman Kings could come from anywhere. In fact, they generally weren’t Patricia, some academics and this is, this is not
Yeah. So that academics have even suggested that one of the, uh, CA uh, I don’t know when you say one of the categories for the thinking was not to be a patrician. Ah, you know, that they actually had to come from outside the country. So, yeah, that’s, that’s even been suggested, but certainly we know that how you would sustain that as a theory.
No, I’m just saying like it’s being theorized. And so, yeah, I agree with him. Certainly we know a lot of the Kings were not Roman, you know, so, you know, new mom came from say bind territory and therefore a lot of them also weren’t patricians and, you know, Soviet choice apparently was, you know, from a defeated at any such site background,
Dr G17:39
let’s just be logical for a moment.
Um, the trouble with this kind of argument is that RO emergent. As a state that is cobbled together from the surrounding areas. That’s the story it tells about itself. Of course, the Kings aren’t patricians cause the Patricia that is created in the Regal period by the Kings and those Kings have to come from somewhere and they can’t come from Rome because Rome
Dr Rad18:07
isn’t a thing.
Ah, but he also points out that the Colombians themselves weren’t Raven, they have not, now they know that. Yeah. But they came about after. Yeah. After the Patricia apparently would have started to be created. If we accept that Romulus started the Patricia, which is okay, dubious, because he knows the Romulus existed.
But let’s say for argument’s sake that the propitiation did have his origins under Romulus. The Colombians don’t come along under Romulus. There saved my family to come along later. And he’s he’s point is that if people can. Be incorporated and recognize for that excellence and become patricians. What about the people that live here?
And this is ridiculous. Like we should only, we should just be prioritized. Excellent. You know, look at the, you know, look, uh, Lucius stuck when you use Crisco. So you look at these people who are recognized for being excellent and ruled Rome and nothing disastrous happened when you had an outsider ruling road.
That’s his point, I suppose, I get where you’re coming from, but that’s his major points, I suppose. Um, and so, yeah, he, he cites all these previous Kings is, you know, fantastic examples. So clearly they must have for bands in past. Because otherwise you’re going to get people like the second December it coming back again, like it’s just inevitable that there are going to be terrible people coming to power.
Again, you need to have a check on that, I think. Okay. And he also points out that. Okay. So let’s say that this is the situation we’ve got. Outreach to argue that Rome never changes, never adapts is Rome just going to stay exactly how it is right at this moment and never alter anything. Like that’s not, that’s not good government.
I mean, it’s bad policy. And he says he points out all the things, all the things that have made Rome better. So new Matt introduced. And Sophia’s Twilio is the king. He introduced the census apparently and reorganized Rome, and that made run better gradually in their Republic. Dictators were introduced.
You had the addition of we’ll be interviewing. So, I mean, that’s not an argument’s going to continue convincing patricians, but he thinks that that’s a good addition. You also had a dolls and questers all these additional offices where. And you had the destined verse. They came in, they were terrible.
They’re gone. Rome changes, Rome changes. And you know what, it’s generally something that is for the better, but Patricia is in the background.
unless it benefits us in which case we’re all for it. Yeah. So he’s talking about the fact that. It’s such an insult that there, that this idea that there, the patrician blood was somehow be polluted, especially considering that a lot of them come from places like Alba and say buying territory. Whereas a lot of the food beans, allegedly, uh, bull and bread, my friend born bread in Rome.
Not everybody can say that they are, you know, totally natives and he’s like, can’t, they just maintain their status and appears you and all that kind of stuff. And. Can I be into marriage? Like, is that, is that really so inconceivable that yeah. Say the Patricia needs conceivable. Yeah, exactly. Um, and so he says, you know, why not?
Why not just take it further? Why not introduce a law where you ban marriage between rich and poor? I mean, essentially that’s always been the way it’s worked. Hasn’t it? It’s not like rich guys are marrying poor chicks and vice versa. Why not take it even further. Why not ban Patricia to me even living near Cobain or even Ben, and from walking down the same road, I find this fascinating because this is so similar to like segregation in say, you know, America or Australia in terms of what happened.
Uh, African-Americans and indigenous Australians. It is like disturbing that what he’s essentially saying is this is the beginning of segregation. Yeah. This is what is
Dr G22:12
the logical conclusion of the thing that the patricians are arguing for. This is the
Dr Rad22:16
start and this is where it’s going to add. Yeah.
Okay. I’m going to wrap up NASA, be relieved. He points out that to finish. We need to think about this. We kicked out the king. And apparently the point of that was that old Romans would have equal Liberty. That was the point of establishing the Republic. Allegedly. Now the patricians have assumed so much power.
I mean, is there equal, does he easily petite and right. Or are the patricians calling all the shots, all the room and people in command of this. No, I don’t think so. I think so. Shouldn’t the Roman people be allowed to introduce bores. Isn’t that the whole point of what just happened a few years ago. Okay.
In that, what we decided that, you know, Pauline decisions were going to be binding on everybody or should the patricians be able to bring in a levee in retaliation every time they propose a piece of law and now. We don’t think that that’s necessarily what they were doing right now. I think there is legitimately some military problems on the horizon, but they have done it in the cost.
Yes, I can. I can understand
Dr G23:35
rousing speech
Dr Rad23:41
So the petitions have already shown that when the plebeians you not light during the time to the succession. So the first session and for. Second secession in 4 49, the patricians have shown that they have, I haven’t got to like to stand on. And this is where I’m going to take a slight side note. We’ve talked about this, the sessions before in the sense that they are really interesting because even though the beans surely must vastly outnumber the patricians, even though the Patricia, okay.
Might be a significant number of people considering the population of room at this time. Well, that’s all highly speculative because we don’t know how many people are living in Rome at this time. Surely that the beans outnumber them because that’s the whole point of being part of an elite. Okay. You’re part of a minority and yet they’ve never resorted to, um, struggle.
Like they’ve gotten close, but generally they just kind of opt out and do their own thing. You know, it’s really, he’s really interesting. So by this point in time, but the beans really are kind of developing this interesting. Parallel culture. Some people have even dumped in as being like a state within the state because by this stage they’ve actually set up their own archive system where they actually start like depositing Rick, their own records, which is something that the Patricia will something that will be incorporated into the Roman state as a whole, you know, like some of the, a lot of their ideas and their innovations will eventually be worked into the Roman system.
So it is kind of interesting that they have developed. Yeah, this idea. And it is interesting that once again, they’re talking about the fact that we just need to stand up and oppose them. We don’t necessarily even need to fight them. We just need to stand United. The beans are of course, prepared to fight in this war, which faces numerous France, but cannula is determined that they’re only going to get it.
If they get those two things, the ban being overturned. And access to the government via the concept ship. If they get the demands they want, he was coming up the boom up. And if not, nobody is going to enlist because quite frankly, why should they, they are being treated like debt.
Dr G26:00
Oh,
Dr Rad26:02
thank you. Thank you. I read it myself, myself.
All right.
Dr G26:09
So I assume that the beans are going to react well to this speech.
Dr Rad26:13
I actually don’t have much of a reaction from the liens because we go straight into the reaction of one of the console. Oh no. Okay. So can you listen, turns around, ask the console. So tell me why. Why are you going to be so mean again?
Why
Dr G26:31
would you say all of those
Dr Rad26:32
things in public really hurt my feelings? Yeah. Courteous responded that once again, we got to go back to this ID off the auspices and he uses the word that I really love. And again, it seems very hard punch to me. You also, this, this would be confounded people being stride to undertake them.
It has to be a patrician. This
Dr G26:51
just feels like a really filthy argument from Libby. I have to say.
Dr Rad26:55
There is a different lady or is it from the horrible Patricia?
Dr G26:59
I mean, it’s coming through and Livy. I get no hint of it at all in Dionysus of how can I say,
Dr Rad27:06
because I have the spirit Libby and funnily enough, he makes a little note.
Cody’s probably should’ve read the room that wasn’t really probably the best moment to bring that up, which I love because of course for the hands are absolutely for your ears at that’s the response after that huge speech that can, Elise has gone through. Exactly. He’s the planes are at race because they’re like, okay.
So not only do you think that we are the scum between your toes? But now you’re also suggesting that the gods just us, that we can’t possibly
Dr G27:41
screw you, buddy role of your
Dr Rad27:43
friends. Yeah. The building’s attributes are therefore locked into their position. They are incredibly determined, but they’ve been insulted too many times.
The patricians given. Wow. Just like that. What? Just like that? Yeah. They loud the ban on into marriage to be overturned. On the understanding that they’re hoping that the whole thing about the console ship will just be forgotten
Dr G28:08
about. So what, they just don’t say anything about that?
Dr Rad28:11
Well, no, they just like, okay.
We agree into marriage should be allowed. And just, we’ll just we’ll think about the other thing later. We’ve got to deal with the war and now for the lovey. Yes. Now of course the Philippines have only just gained a massive confidence boost.
Dr G28:31
Yeah. So if you’ve agreed to number one, what about your agreement?
Number two,
Dr Rad28:36
you need, we just have to give a really long speech. Well, we could have done that a long time. Well, Libby. Yeah. So they are totally, I totally got an energy boost from this overturning all of the marriage man. And they thought, well, you know, I think, I think we can, maybe I think we can maybe hold out, you know, I think maybe we can, we can keep fighting.
We can keep pushing for the console ship, you know, let’s,
Dr G29:04
let’s see one cliff, maybe we’ll jump off
Dr Rad29:06
the other and the councils aren’t able to get anything through the Senate at this point in time, because allegedly the tribunes are prepared to use their theater. Now you and I have flagged this before as being problematic.
To be honest as we’ve, as we’ve highlighted, the way that the circle of the orders is laid out is super problematic in terms of when they get certain rights, the whole position of the Tribune, it’s hard to figure out what they actually would have had in terms of their powers at this point in time, as opposed to what Lydia assumes, they had all the analysts who are, who Lydia is basing his count on.
Yeah, I think they probably assuming that the tribunes have. The power more power than they probably have. But nonetheless, this is why they turn to a private meeting with the consoles and other leading men in the status and narratives. So they begin to power a little badly. I told you we get there eventually.
And so in the private meeting, and I start talking about the fact that look, we’re either going to have a civil war now. Or we’re going to be conquered by the numerous entities that are out at our gates right now. And the interesting thing to note here is that all X console seem to be involved in this meeting except for the Larry’s and Heraclitus oh yes.
This
Dr G30:26
will come up in Dionysius
Dr Rad30:28
as well. Yes. Um, and so hilarious. And Bharatiya sister reminds you guys, these were, these guys are patrician through and through. But they were patricians that could see that the second December were tyrants and that the power that they held in, the position that they held in the state was problematic.
And they also could see, as you pointed out the common sense or not wanting the plebeians to secede from the state of Roni, go and live elsewhere and start their own band.
Dr G30:56
Yeah. These are the two guys that go out when the, when the plebeians do succeed and go and have a chat to them. They’re like, Look, we know it’s not okay.
And we’re going to do our best, let us lead you. And so they come across as monitoring.
Dr Rad31:13
Patricians and they also introduced the laws after the second December and the second session to sort of restore things like, so they were the distributor, they restored certain rights to the plebs and distributing.
And so yeah, they, they seen as being kind of tops flight
Dr G31:27
into the secret
Dr Rad31:28
meeting. so interesting. It’s room seems to be just like so segregated right now, but anyway, and that’s where I come in to the whole thing with guys, Claudia. At also capital liners, having their discussions. Exactly. As you said, you know, one of them suggesting let’s just fight, let’s just kill them all.
And the other one saying maybe not, maybe not civil bloodshed God. Yeah, exactly. And that is where we get the introduction of this new position, military tribunes with consular authority, which we made up of patricians and proving. But the console shape of course will remain unchanged in terms of like who’s allowed to hold that so that it won’t be corrupted.
And this decision very much appeases the tribunes and the plebs in my account. How do they feel in your account?
Dr G32:18
Oh, okay. So this is just the first in a moment of grand deception as it were. So they have this secret meeting where clueless. Guys Claudia. So of all people is the one who makes this a sort of suggestion that we have these military tribunes with consular power.
Now listen, as if you’re hearing this and you’re like, but what does that even mean? Uh, fair enough. Uh, what this means. Is when they organize, uh, the Roman army. So when they do a levy, part of what happens is they make a selection within the people that have been levied. That song will be military tribunes.
Yes. Now the numbers for this very, and we’re not sure, it depends on the time period. Uh, records are scattered at best, but there’s usually between three to six military tribunes poorly. Yeah, so they kind of like an organizational structure and then you can, you can be patrician or you could be poor band and you could be a military Tribune.
Yeah. It just depends on how the levy happens. And this seems to be a selection process, but whoever is fighting within that Legion, some of those people will end up being military patients with some degree. Of responsibility to report back to the generals who would be the consoles at this point, and then to like sort of distribute, uh, the sort of orders as they come down.
Dr Rad33:43
Yeah. And suddenly exactly, as you just slacked right there. It’s also important to note that the console shape really was not just a political position at this point in time. It definitely is a military military position. You can’t, you can’t split facing support in room at this
Dr G33:57
point in time. Yeah. The cultural shift is military.
Uh, political and ritual in nature, and most Magister sees ends up having a, sort of a sacred aspect to them in the way that they’re performed. Um, and it’s no different for the console shit. And so, but the military Tribune is kind of just like a functional leadership position within Allegion, so that don’t necessarily have any sort of ritual ties.
Um, and it can be held by anybody. Usually an experienced soldier at a certain point might go on to be a military tribute. So they take this concept that they’ve already got embedded and they’re like, well, what if we take that idea? And we expanded out and we give them, uh, Cancilla power. So this is in the political sense to a certain degree, but mostly in the military sense and probably not a what on the ritual side.
So it’s this ability to sort. Be a leader, make decisions for the cohorts that you’re looking after. And by placing them as the top magistracy in, in place of the console ships. So you wouldn’t have consoles and military tributes with Cancilla power. You either have one or the other. They sort of allowing console a power to be distributed down the line a little bit amongst a greater number of people.
And
Dr Rad35:21
this is really interesting because if we think about how academics have interpreted, what is going on in this period, certainly the suggestions has been that this, this time period around 44, 4 45, Really important for Rome in that it almost seems like Rome is actually just restructuring and talking about to collapse.
Yeah. It seems like there are new challenges potentially facing room. Um, possibly because they have made a name for themselves in the area, made some enemies and it’s not going down well, but for whatever reason, There does seem to be a need underlying this decision, which might not be actually anything to do with the struggle of the audience.
So, yeah, and this, this is what’s interesting because we like our sources play it up as being very much about Patricia investments for being anything, but actually might just be Rams and clever. It
Dr G36:13
might just be a practical decision to deal with the threat that they currently face. Yes, they have enemies on all sides of this.
It is a problem. They do need some solutions and if they only. To consoles. They technically can only divide up their forces in
Dr Rad36:31
two different directions. Yeah. And at the same time in 4 46 questers were brought in, uh, which is, it’s not something brand new. Exactly. But the way that they were sort of brought back.
Um, you know, for the needs of the state, apparently I haven’t been around for a while. And also just looking ahead a little bit in 4 43, we’re going to see the resurrection of this Institute. So it does seem like there’s a whole bunch of offices that are being either like resurrected rebranded, re yeah.
Oh, this restructuring is going on around these periods. So it is a really crucial period for Rome. Yeah.
Dr G37:07
And I think we can see this as part of the broader sense in the way that the consequences of the December it playing out as well, because that is also a structure that is
Dr Rad37:17
about
Dr G37:17
instability. Yeah. And we’re seeing that instability continue.
It seemed like they’d sort of swept it aside a little bit, but it seems like they haven’t gotten out of. And now things have come to a head again, and they’ve had to come up with a new way to navigate themselves through a difficult period. And so this military tribute it with the lot power is going to be this new group.
This is their new idea to solve a problem that they’re currently facing, which seems to be mostly a military thing. Um, so we’ll see how that pans out for them. But anyway, we’ve got this. Alongside both sort of considerations is the kind of literary narrative which has really betrayed. This is about the Kloss struggle.
Yes. So Claudius comes out of this, um, uh, suggestion that they have this new position and that’s exciting, but then he says, let’s go in with a plan we’re going to need to, so this to the people first, we need to pass the preliminary decree in the Senate. Then we need to give the floor to anybody who wants to see.
But let’s decide who’s going to speak here. I’m not going to start either. Is queen tedious? Uh, my, my good friend Quinty is who suggested that civil bloodshed might be a little bit disastrous. Let’s why don’t we start with Lucy is hilarious. And immediately after him, friend of the popular. we’re going to load those two to speak first.
They haven’t been invited to this meeting at all. They’re just,
Dr Rad38:49
we’re going to use them and abuse them.
Dr G38:52
And now they can say whatever they want, whatever. Wow. And then all come up and speak and I’ll do my usual speech about, you know, where I’m a traditional patrician and this is what I want, et cetera, et cetera.
And then, then we’ll get tied to school. The console’s brother. So we’re in the year. What? 4 45 Marcus gooky is the console. We’ll get his brother Titus to stand up and Hugh propose the measure about the military tribunes with consular power. We’ll get him to do it. This
Dr Rad39:23
is so orchestrated. Yeah,
Dr G39:27
we’ll get, we’ll get, uh, Marcus canoe.
He to be like, look, I think my brother wants to speak. Let’s get him up here. And. That’s how we’re going to play this because by the time we get through those two moderate, patricians having their say, um, and sort of trying to get people to, to do what they need to do in the nicest way. Possible me being an asshole.
They’ll definitely buy it coming from. Wow.
Dr Rad39:51
This is crazy. This is so different when I have this
Dr G39:54
secret meeting is full of plaid. Yeah. Now the tributes rightly a highly suspicious of this secret patrician meeting with the council, of course. And so they’re like, we need to have a strategy as well. So they get together with their allies and they’re like, well, let’s have our own private meeting show and they start out by like, okay.
So whatever they do, we just have to, we just have to say, no,
Dr Rad40:19
basically it’s kind of in a way,
Dr G40:23
what could they possibly be doing? We just have to say no. So they have, we move into the execution of guys, coy. This is planned. Right.
Dr Rad40:32
Okay.
Dr G40:33
And they have the preliminary decree me. And then we have guys can utilize Tribune of the plebs finally comes forward.
And he’s like, I wonder though, about this secret meeting that’s been had and why weren’t Valerius and her audience invite. You know, our
Dr Rad40:54
a fair question. These are the
Dr G40:56
patricians that are most, uh, willing to, to side with the plebeians.
Dr Rad41:01
You and I know why I think everybody knows why,
Dr G41:05
but please know that Gaia’s Courtney says master plan has already taken that into account.
Yeah. And so. They take clearly says speech where he’s like, look, it’s not, it’s not, it’s not okay. Uh, for those two who are so great and lauded in their positions to have been left out of whatever secret meeting you’ve been having, it’s not okay. And I guess they’ve been left out because you’re trying to screw us over and then they have the beautiful moment where the Patricia.
Oh, oh, well, why don’t we let them speak
Dr Rad41:41
first? Wow. How many kilos now?
Dr G41:46
Volaris and varieties haven’t been let into this secret net, like
Dr Rad41:51
Patricia, just speaking off the
Dr G41:52
cuff, just speak off the cuff. Yeah. And they try to do what is, what seems most appropriate. Apparently hilarious makes a long speech, but Dionysus of pallet Kinesis, thankfully doesn’t give it to us.
Just tells us that there’s a little. Any kind of hopes, um, that we’ll be able to move forward and we’ll be able to work together as a state. And, you know, we’re only, um, as equal as, as we act. So, you know, we all have to act
Dr Rad42:25
together. Awesome.
Dr G42:29
And, you know, and having a law that gives a share of the pencil ship to all Romans, um, those who have lived irreproachable lives and performed actions worthy of honor, they do serve this.
Uh, but he also winds up by saying, but you know, what’s important here is that we have war on all fronts that we’re facing. So we should probably leave the decision about. Until after the war,
Dr Rad43:00
if I say I haven’t been here.
Dr G43:02
So he does a lot of sort of nice sort of like. I’m
Dr Rad43:07
with you. You deserve this, but just, can we just press pause?
Can we just,
Dr G43:12
I, and it’s me, it’s coming from me, the moderate Patricia. And so, and then Harati has gets up and he’s like, look hilarious. Who’s being very wise here. You know, of course, it’s true that you deserve this and we should definitely look into it, but please, please, please just go on. Fine. Just go flat.
Yeah, just this. It’s going to be important that we do this. This proposal is a great tool by everybody, but everyone is angry about it. So we have this moment where Dionysius lets us know that, um, because it’s postponed through means are like, okay, you’ve convinced us that we need to postpone it, but I’m pretty angry about having to do that.
Not only that. The patricians conservative. Patricians angry about this because basically these two Valerius neurotic have said we’ll make it. So after the
Dr Rad44:10
war, they were
Dr G44:12
counting on that. So they’re like, well, we’re agreeing because it means that we’ll go to the wool, which we really need to do right now.
Oh, pissed off about that. Now I’m going to have to deal with this thing all over again after the war.
Dr Rad44:28
So I wouldn’t have that content clay. I wouldn’t have the wall press the issue.
Dr G44:32
Yeah. So basically these two manage to enrage everybody in, into agreeing with them, but being frustrated by that at the same time Harati is Gaius Claudia steps out to do he’s prepared speech.
Of being a douchebag
Fancy seeing the smell of shit in front of me. Once
Dr Rad45:00
again,
Dr G45:03
he says yes, that the law should be refused all together. And he’s like, that’s a dumb plan. We should go to that war and we should not do that thing afterwards. You know why? Because it’s the right Patricia and thing to do. And no one will be able to tell me otherwise, Thank you very much.
That’s guys bloating. You can find me in my Villa,
Dr Rad45:25
which one? Which one?
Dr G45:27
So that’s annoying. So guys, Claudia says speechies met with outrage
Dr Rad45:34
as planned though,
Dr G45:35
as planned opening the way for who else, but Titus good news is we like gods. There’s a third way. And people like what? It’s not just war and no, no, uh, sort of reward in return for just fighting all the time, because there’s a third way.
And he’s like, yes, yes. Think about
Dr Rad46:00
it the
Dr G46:01
middle way we could have wait for it because nobody’s ever suggested this before. Military tribunes with consular power and people like, no matter what now, the who to what, and everybody loves it. Even the tribunes are kind of like, well, that’s not a hot, bad idea.
Right?
Dr Rad46:22
Okay. So this is where our narratives is sinking up again. Okay, good, good, good, good.
Dr G46:27
Not a half bad idea. And the people love it. They’re like, oh my God
Dr Rad46:35
wagon. I get our sharing power, um, heard
Dr G46:39
of, but this might also be the cliffhanger moment. Okay. To wind
Dr Rad46:44
up this epic.
Dr G46:45
Or as well, I feel like if I go further now,
Dr Rad46:48
fair enough.
Fair enough. Look, we can, we can leave it there. So we’re wrapping up on this cliff, hang a moment where we’re on the brink of potentially introducing a shared plebeian patrician system, overruling Rome. We have to see how this is obviously going to play out in practice, but if we strip it back and put our academic hats on.
I think we can both agree. This probably isn’t really anything to do with this truck, the orders, and actually what’s going on is based on the archeology based on what we can see happening throughout this entire decade. So going all the way from the December all the way through the fall. I think we can say that Rome is an absolute crisis.
You know, there’s obviously economic issues is obviously military and political issues going on. Rome is in real trouble. And this is a restructuring of the state. I think of some of some. So there might have been an element of who’s going to take what role now, but the idea of it being part of the struggle of the orders is probably, actually not quite the headline.
That lady and Dionysius and potentially their sources believed it was
Dr G47:55
maybe not. We definitely got a crisis of some kind, definitely. And the fact that we’re getting to a point where the elite patricians, uh, coming to the table with a suggestion to share power, I think might suggest that there is something, there are rumblings coming from below, which can no longer be ignored.
Absolutely. How that plays out. We will
Dr Rad48:21
see, I think that there is, I think there is trouble in Rome at this point in time. And the patricians have accrued so much power by this point that they are kind of taking the lead in terms of how to fix it, how to address it, that they’re trying to still hold on to their monopoly of power in this time of crisis.
And I think that’s where you get the rumblings from below, because as is often pointed out in the scholarship, the Cobain’s generally. Act at this point of time in terms of protecting themselves and defending themselves, I don’t often go on the aggressive, like everything they’d done, it might seem aggressive.
And that’s how our sources want to play me when it to play out in terms of leaving dynasties and the troopers. But they’re reacting, they’re reacting. They’re always reacting and. Then not setting out to challenge their leaders, but certainly if there is this time of crisis, I think it’s understandable that there would be questions asked about who should be leading room, you know, and who should have a say if there is this problem going on.
So definitely I think the struggle with the audience has played off, but I can totally see that there would be an element of, well who plays the, what now in this whole conversation that’s happening. So it will be interesting to see. What room looks like on the other side. And with that in mind, Dr. Jay it’s time to go to Vic.
Alrighty, sir. This is where we get to rank room, according to his own values. Dr. Jay. Tell us how it works. Ooh.
Dr G49:56
So we have 50 golden Eagles up for grabs across five categories. We will give them a score in each of those categories out of 10 and together we will see how Rome has performed according to its own values.
All right.
Dr Rad50:13
So the first category is military collapse.
Dr G50:16
Ooh. I don’t think we’ve even levied an army
Dr Rad50:18
properly yet, which is interesting actually, because again, At this point in time, serving in the army would have been a real mark of distinction. So it is interesting that that. The thing that they chew. I mean, it is a good weapon to use, but yeah, it’s
Dr G50:34
interesting.
I think it depends on the nature of the conflict. If it’s one that the Senate has maybe made up, I think, I guess the trouble is how do you know if the enemy is truly surrounding you or whether somebody is telling you a whole pack of lies? Those guys they’re just herding sheep
Dr Rad50:55
about that. All right. So no military cloud, no expansion.
I think it will say. And that’s a no, that’s a no that they’re going to be fighting to defend their territory. Once again, diplomacy. Ah, there is some internal diplomacy going on here. There does seem to, yeah, I mean, it’s very manipulative,
Dr G51:12
as Courtney says, counting plan
Dr Rad51:16
mean
Dr G51:16
in a way it is diplomatic. He is now offering.
Something well beyond anything that has ever been offered to the plebeians before,
Dr Rad51:26
and also in my account, the patricians have made concessions about the marriage
Dr G51:33
voted. I’m going home to
Dr Rad51:37
bury that. Oh my God, there’s a, um,
I turned know off. You can call that to play in this either. They literally just gave him maybe a two, I think a two. Okay. So that’s a two we’re tourists. Oh, not really getting it. I mean, there’s a lot of rhetoric going on, but there’s
Dr G51:58
a lot of rhetoric going on and I’d say that maybe if we take the pot of a very conservative patrician white guys, Claudius coming up with a grand and cunning plan might be considered quiet,
Dr Rad52:12
man.
it doesn’t feel safe to man. It feels quite underhanded. I’m willing to give him a one and that’s it. All right. All right. So that’s a three. Okay. Five school is the citizen school. Well, this actually is good. Well,
Dr G52:31
things have been improved remarkably. Yeah. They’re allowed to Colombians and Patricia is now allowed to marry.
Dr Rad52:39
And apparently I think they always were up until December or something around that time. But.
Dr G52:48
And then with this potential for a military tribute with Consolo power is actually quite significant. That’s a big
Dr Rad52:55
step up. Yeah. And then we we’re living under the cliffhanger in terms of what room will look like and how this will play out.
But definitely change has been achieved. That’s definitely been changed chief. So I am almost willing to give it a 10, but wow. Is that going too far? I mean, there is still a war on all fronts. Maybe an eight is safer. Let’s
Dr G53:15
go with nine. Let’s go for that safe. I care.
Dr Rad53:17
That means that we end up Dr. Deanna grand, total of 12 goal and ego.
That’s impressive because there was a lot of really objectionable material in that episode. That is double what they
Dr G53:31
scored for the previous episodes. It’s impressive.
Dr Rad53:34
You know, I think the difference. There’s a lot of Cobain talk, not so much Patricia chit-chat that’s the case. All right. Well, join us next time to see exactly how this potentially sharing of power goes on in Romania.
Dr G53:51
How’s this going to work?
Dr Rad53:53
Yeah, this is a new world for Rome. This is jealousy is to be turning point for rearing. So, so exciting.
Dr G53:58
Yeah, forget consuls. It’s now military tribunes with consular power.
Dr Rad54:01
If you think it sounds like a mouthful because it is.
Episode 122 – The Right to Rule Rome
Feb 10, 2022
Who has the right to rule Rome? Who should have the right? In this episode, we tackle one of the major developments of the so-called ‘Conflict of the Orders’ as the plebs push for new laws that would give them greater political power. The archaeology confirms that the mid-fifth century was tough for Rome, so the political unrest may be reflecting this difficult time.
Episode 122 – The Right to Rule Rome
Rome Gets Greedy
In our last episode on the year 446 BCE, Rome was kicking some serious butt. The Aequians and Volscians could not sit down for WEEKS! Sadly, these military victories were undermined by a foolish call by the Roman people. The cities of Aricia and Ardea had been engaged in a dispute over boundaries and appealed to Rome to settle their differences. The Romans got a bit greedy and decided that they had the rightful claim to this land, leaving neither city satisfied.
Their land-lust would come back to haunt them in 445 BCE when revolt brakes out in Ardea. Oh, and did we mention that the Veientes, the Aequians and the Volscians were also attacking Roman territory? With the enemies at every gate, the Romans needed to present a strong, united front and march out to deal with these tiresome foes immediately. At least, that’s what the consuls and patricians want. The plebs have other ideas.
The Tribunes Strike Back
Livy and Dionysius provide different accounts of how the internal politics of 445 played out, but there were seemingly two major sticking points for the plebs and Caius Canuleius before they were willing to let the levy go ahead. Firstly, they wanted the very unpopular law that forbid intermarriage between the patricians and the plebeians overturned. This law was allegedly the brainchild of the second decemvirate, so thanks again Appius Claudius. Secondly, the plebeians wanted a share in the consulship. There were two consuls, so why not have one patrician and one plebeian?
Often in ancient Rome, our depictions of married couples come from funerary monuments. This is a funerary monument of Gaius Volumnius and his wife (name potentially lost based on the remains) Italy, c. 1-50 CE (so much later than our period as well!). Now in the Altes Museum. Photo by Anagoria via Wikimedia Commons
The patricians are HORRIFIED by both suggestions. Intermarriage would pollute the patrician bloodlines and also have dangerous implications for the auspices (reading bird behaviour to interpret the will of the gods). It would also lead to children who belonged to neither the patricians or the plebeians, and yet was somehow both. As for the consulship, it would clearly be a disaster to hand over such power to the plebs. Look at Icilius, or Canuleius himself – troublemakers, the lot of them!
The ‘Conflict of the Orders’ Enters a New Phase
This is one of the most confusing developments yet in the so-called ‘Conflict of the Orders’, especially as we can’t be sure exactly who the patricians and plebeians really were or when these groups developed! It can be hard to tell when our sources are projecting their own first century BCE understandings back into the early Republic.
With the tribunes and the consuls swearing that they would rather DIE than give in, 445 BCE is shaping up to be a very conflicted year for the Romans….
Our Players
Consuls 446 BCE
T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) cos. IV (471, 468, 465)
Agrippa Furius – f. – n. Fusus Pat. (59)
Angry Old Plebeian Man
Publius Scaptius
Consuls 445 BCE
M. Genucius – f. – n. Augurinus – Pat.
C. (or Agripp.) Curtius – f. – n. Philo (or Chilo) Pat.
Tribune of the Plebs
C. Canuleius
C. Furnius
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities, 11.52-54.
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.1-2.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to Orange Free Sounds, BBC Sounds, Fesliyan Studios, Gfx Sounds, Free Sound Library, Orange Free Sounds, and Sound Bible for sound effects and the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.
This episode is dedicated to a very special group of students who are out there somewhere whom Dr Rad may or may not have taught recently...
This third century CE Roman gold ring is thought to have been used as betrothal or wedding band. While we’re not sure if similar styles or rings were in use in the 440s BCE, the concept of being connected through a ring has a long history even as far back as Rome. For more on Roman rings, you might enjoy this article.
Special Episode – Classical Reception in Metal Music with Dr Jeremy J. Swist
Jan 27, 2022
We are thrilled to bring you an exploration of the relationship between the ancient world and metal music. We’re joined by Dr Jeremy J. Swist an expert in the subject. Dr Swist is a lecturer in the Department of Classical Studies at Brandeis University. He holds a PhD in Classics looking at the Reception of the seven kings of Rome in imperial historiography from Tiberius to Theodosius. His research covers everything from historiography to the classical reception in metal music.
Special Episode – Classical Reception in Metal Music with Dr Jeremy J. Swist
It’s a big topic and we delve into many facets of reception. One important area is thinking about Roman virtus as it is explored in metal. We also consider the connections between metal music and sword-and-sandals cinema. AND the way in which this genre of music can be a way of exploring the edges of human experience.
The connection between heavy metal and the ancient world is not just about the lyrics or the stylisation on stage though. One of the primary ways classical reception happens is through album artwork.
Consider the depiction of Poseidon on the cover of Wrathblade’s 2017 album God of the Deep Unleashed.
Poseidon cuts an incredibly fearsome and muscular figure as he looms in a giant wave above to destroy an ancient town.
Meanwhile the French band Autokrator have worked in twists on Roman imperialism with the cover of the eponymous album from 2014 and then their latest album released in 2021.
The 2014 album is a wash of red colour over a black background. Before the Colosseum is a fearsome, slightly skeletal sculpture of a Roman…
Autokrator’s 2021 album cover for Persecution shifts the colour scheme to greys over a black background.
The building in the background you may just recognise from the Roman forum while the sculpture draws references to Marcus Aurelius.
Coming to Grips with Metal
Neither of us know much about metal music so this was a real treat for us to learn more about the rich references to the ancient world in this genre. So join us for an engaging and insightful conversation.
If you’re looking for even more metal after listening to this episode, you might want to check out the upcoming conference Heavy Metal and Global Premodernity which is being co-run by none other that Dr Jeremy J. Swist and Dr C Naylor Davis.
Episode 121 – Strength in Unity
Jan 13, 2022
The year 446 BCE has it all – battles, civil strife, virtus, dynamic leadership… Rome is certainly on a better path after the mysterious and seemingly disastrous 447 BCE.
Episode 121 – Strength in Unity
Enemies at the Gate
The atmosphere in Rome at the beginning of 446 BCE was tense. In 447 BCE, the magistrates had not been able to restrain the patricians from antagonizing the plebeians. By 446 BC, this conflict had not been resolved. To complicate matters further, the Aequians and the Volscians were trying to take advantage of the civil unrest. Their combined forces started ravaging the lands of the Latins. The lack of any retaliation then encouraged the Aequians and Volscians to grow bolder and move ever closer to Rome herself.
This situation could not be tolerated. Romans fighting each other, rather than taking out the enemy? Fortunately, one of the consuls, Titus Quinctius, has a lot of experience and he is not afraid to use it. Will Quinctius and his colleague, Agrippa Furius, be able to save Rome from herself? Will they rediscover strength in unity?
Social position was instantly recognisable from dress. What you wore was a reflection of your privileges or lack thereof. For Rome to develop as a society, every person needed to be valued. Image: Wikimedia Commons
Things to look out for
Titus Quinctius’ masterful display of rhetoric
The Romans return to the battlefield and face the Aequians and Volscians
Agrippa Furius’ moment of virtus
Dr Rad and Dr G temporarily forgetting where the city of Corbio was located (it was to the South East of Rome and became a bone of contention between Rome and the Aequains)
Dr Rad inventing a new word to describe the plebeians and tribunes of the plebs – the Trebeians!
Our Players
Consuls 446 BCE
T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) cos. IV (471, 468, 465)
Agrippa Furius – f. – n. Fusus (Pat.)
Quaestors
L? Valerius (Poplicola?) Potitus (Pat.)
Mam. Aemilius (Mamercinus) (Pat.)
Legates, Lieutenants
Sp. Postumius Albus (Regillensis) (Pat.)
P. Sulpicius (Camerinus Cornutus?) (Pat.)
Sources
Dr G reads Frontinus, Strategemata, 2.8.2
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 3.66-70.
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to Orange Free Sounds, BBC Sounds, Fesliyan Studios, Pixabay, and Sound Bible for sound effects and the incomparable Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Addition music in the episode is ‘Beat’ provided by https://freebeats.io, produced by White Hot.
After spending many, many episodes on the events of 449 BCE, we are now flying through multiple years in ONE episode! Ah, the ups and downs of the early Republic. Tune in to find out what happened to Rome in 448, 447 and 446 BCE.
Episode 120 – Rebels Without a Cause
The Year 448 BCE
This has to be one of the briefest and most mysterious years on record. Now that we are out of the decemvirate, there are two new consuls on the block – neither of whom have held the position before. One may even have Etruscan ancestry. This may indicate that experienced and suitable candidates are hard to come by now that the members of the decemvirate are either dead or exiled. This pair of consuls are quite happy to sit on the fence between the patricians and plebeians and have an uneventful year.
Something very unusual did take place in this year. Livy records that two patrician ex-consuls were elected to serve as tribunes of the plebs!
There is some doubt about the accuracy of this claim, but Livy’s account tells us that some of the new tribunes consulted with the patricians when co-opting colleagues after the election fell short at the end of 449 BCE. What a world we live in! One of the tribunes is most displeased, and Lucius Trebonius pushes for a law that stipulates that elections need to continue until no fewer than ten tribune of the plebs are elected. Trebonius is given the cognomen ‘Asper’ (prickly or truculent) in recognition of his fight to keep patrician power in check.
A prickly pear, which seems like an apt image for Lucius Trebonius Asper. Image Courtesy of Ken Bosma on Flickr.
The 447 BCE
The new consuls, Geganius and Iulius, just want there to be less tension between the social orders in 447, but it is hard to keep everyone happy in this situation.
In Livy, they manage to calm the plebeians down by suspending a levy for a war against the Volscians and Aequians (although Dr G has an inscription that indicates otherwise). After all, is this war really necessary? The enemies of Rome only want to fight when they sense that Rome is distracted by domestic turmoil, and there’s none of that around now…. Right? Right, guys?
Unfortunately for this consular duo, the young patricians are back on the scene and causing all sorts of trouble. They start with general abuse of the plebeians, but it quickly escalates to violence – even against the tribunes themselves! With the Valerio-Horatian law about the sacrosanctity of tribunes having JUST been passed, you would think that the patricians would have to show more respect. Clearly all is not well in the city of Rome… at least for plebeians!
James Dean, who did not live in ancient Rome, but who embodies that rebellious spirit of the young patricians… in our imaginations!
Our Players
The Consuls 448 BCE
Lars (or Sp.) HERMINIUS – Cortinesanus (Pat.) –
T. VERGINIUS – Tricostus Caeliomontanus (Pat.)
Tribunes of the Plebs 448 BCE
A Aternius – Varus Fontinalis (Pat.) – Cos. 454
Sp. TARPEIUS Montanus Capitolinus (Pat.) –Cos.454
L. TREBONIUS Asper
Other Notables
Lucius Valerius Potitus (Cos. 449)
Marcus Horatius Barbatus (Cos. 449)
The Consuls 447 BCE
M Geganius M. f. – n. Macerinus (Pat.) – Cos. 443, 437
C. Iulius (-f. – n. Iullus?) (Pat.) – Cos. 435, 434?
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 11.51 and Diodorus Siculus
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 3.65
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Thanks to Orange Free Sounds, BBC Sounds, and Sound Bible for sound effects and the incomparable Bettina Joy de Guzman for our music.
Episode 119 – The Triumphant Return of the Consulship
Nov 11, 2021
Rome is still in the depths in 449 BCE, but there’s been an epic turn of events. Appius Claudius may be dead, but what happens next? We’re here to find out! Importantly, some of our key players in the plebeian set find themselves upgraded to the status of tribune of the plebs.
Episode 119 – The Triumphant Return of the Consulship
The end of Spurius Oppius
It’s not just Appius Claudius who finds himself in trouble after the end of the decemvirate. Spurius Oppius, another decemvir also finds himself in a spot of bother.
Publius Numatorius – tribune of the plebs, maternal uncle of Verginia, leds the cause against Spurius Oppius.
Livy has Oppius embroiled in a terrible affair involving a loyal solider of Rome while Dionysius of Halicarnassus has a much more speedy account of Spurius Oppius’ ultimate fate.
It may not be surprising to hear that the rest of the decemivirs realise they need to find their way out of Rome!
The Consulship Returns
The moderate patricians Lucius Valerius Potitus and Marcus Horatius Barbatus have managed to pass a range of laws that help support stability in the City. To catch up on the action of this front, check out Episode 118. But now that the major crises have passed, Rome begins to look outwards. It turns out that Rome’s neighbours have noted their preoccupation with internal politics. The time has come for Rome to take a stand.
Valerius takes a force against the Volscians and the Aequians. Horatius also takes out a force against the Sabines. We delve into the details of the strategies deployed by the Roman commanders. Both consuls and their forces make an excellent showing on the battlefield and return home with high expectations of a triumph or two.
What are the Tribunes up to?
As the year 449 BCE unfolds some of tribunes behaviour starts to garner suspicions. Is it just the case that groups of ten men now look a little shady to Romans in general? Or is there a new grab for power happening? The tribune Marcus Duilius may have some of the answers…
Things to listen out for
A soldier scourged
The quaestores parricidii
The amazing returning booty
Some very interesting fracas about triumphs
Tribunes acting suspiciously…
A new buddy system for tribunes
Our Players
The Decemvirs
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Spurius Oppius Cornicen
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Manius Rabuleius
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
The Senators
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
The Verginii and Supporters
Verginia – a Roman maiden, murdered by her father in order to protect her from the lust of Appius Claudius
Verginius – father of Verginia and newly elected tribune of the plebs
Publius Numitorius – Verginia’s maternal uncle and newly elected tribune of the plebs
Lucius(?) Icilius – Verginia’s betrothedand newly elected tribune of the plebs
Tribunes of the Plebs, 449 BCE
Lucius Verginius
Lucius Icilius (who had served as a tribune previously)
Publius Numitorius
Gaius Sicinius – son of the man who was first tribune chosen on Sacred Mount (L?.Sicinius)
Marcus Duillius (who had served as a tribune previously)
Marcus Titinius
Marcus Pomponius
Gaius Apronius
Appius Villius
Gaius Oppius
Other Notables
Gaius Claudius – uncle of Appius Claudius
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 11.46-50
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 3.58-64
Joseph Désiré Court 1864. The Martyrdom of Saint Agnes. Not historically aligned with the year we’re examining but a very evocative imagining of Rome.
Special Episode – Women and Money with Professor Karen Carr
Nov 04, 2021
We sat down recently to have a conversation with Professor Karen Carr who is Emerita at Portland State University. She holds a doctorate in Classical Art and Archaeology and we were thrilled to discuss the ideas for her latest work. We explore Carr’s research on the connections between women, money, and the economy in the ancient world.
Special Episode – Roman Women and Money with Professor Karen Carr
Carr has an impressive breadth and depth to her research work. She’s the author of Vandals to Visigoths: Rural Settlement Patterns in Early Medieval Spain. Carr also has a book coming out in 2022 called Shifting Currents: A World History of Swimming. However, in this conversation we were focusing on her radical new theories on women and their place in economies. The conversation ranges from the Stone Age through to the modern world! Professor Carr is currently writing a book on this topic that is slated for release in 2023 through the University of Liverpool Press.
Thinking about ancient economies
Professor Carr suggests that manufacturing, and thus the production of wealth, was initially tied to the work of women. They say that money makes the world go around, so it seems like women were making the world go around since the Stone Age! They helped to produce items like beads and textiles that could be used for trade long before humans invented coinage.
This all started to change when Greeks and Romans started to export silver and gold in larger quantities, especially in the form of coinage. Mining for metals and minting the coins was largely men’s work and this type of money started to be promoted as ‘masculine’, while items like beads and textiles were labelled as ‘feminine’. As parts of the world, such as Asia and Africa, continued to engage in the manufacture of these goods for trade, foreigners also started to be associated with femininity. If you are starting to feel like the economy in the ancient world was complex, you would be correct!
Penelope and the Suitors by J. W. Waterhouse. Work that wool, Penelope!
Roman Women and Money
Tune in to hear how all of these developments may have contributed to slavery in the ancient and modern world. With the fashion industry being one of the largest contributors to carbon emissions and coming under more scrutiny for the poor conditions of workers, you won’t want to miss Professor Carr’s theories about how contemporary attitudes towards fast fashion may go back further than you think.
Close-up of some of the coins from the Frome Hoard. This hoard contains 52 503 Roman coins which date from 253-305 CE!
Music and Sound Effects
The music featured in this episode is an original composition for our podcast by the glorious Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Episode 118 – The Death of Appius Claudius
Oct 14, 2021
Appius Claudius: what a man, what a couple of decemvirates! But while the title of this episode might have given some things away, it’s all about how it happens.
If our sources are to be believed, 449 BCE was one hell of a year. In our previous episode, we witnessed the end of the tyrannical Second Decemvirate and the Second Secession of the Plebeians. Two patricians, Valerius and Horatius, had managed to coax the plebeians back to Rome and their protest helped to oust the decemvirs from power. This episode, we will delve into the aftermath of these dramatic events, and we finally get to kill off that much-hated decemvir, Appius Claudius.
Episode 118 – The Death of Appius Claudius
Is Justice blind? We’ll find out in the case of Appius Claudius! Image Source: Salvis Juribus
Review the Career of Appius Claudius
Looking to catch up to speed before heading into this episode?
With the office of the tribune of the plebs restored, it is time to secure some new consuls as well. Who better than the patricians who defied the decemvirs, Lucius Valerius Potitus and Marcus Horatius Barbatus? And isn’t an interesting coincidence that these two men were chosen to mop up the mess when their ancestors, P. Valerius Volusi Publicola and M. Horatius Pulvillus, were consuls back when the Republic was first established in 509 BCE?
The Romans are known for associating particular gens with certain characteristics and policies, but it also may be the case that Romans followed paths that would uphold their family legacy.
The Valerio-Horatian Laws
In spite of their patrician backgrounds, the consulship of Valerius and Horatius was particularly beneficial for the Roman people. This is largely due to some new laws that were introduced, now known as the Valerio-Horatian Laws. According to our sources, the legislation:
restored the sacrosanctity to the tribune of the plebs and instituted harsh penalties for anyone who violated this law
restored the consular law about the right of citizens to appeal. They also ensured that all future magistracies that were created would include the right to appeal.
the decisions of plebeians (plebiscites) would now be considered binding for all Roman people, and not just the plebeians.
These laws are clearly a direct response to what had transpired under the Second Decemvirate and restored a lot of power to the people.
We’ll explore some of the ramifications of these laws, the scholarly controversy over the dating, and what some of the more conservative patricians thought about them.
The Death of Verginia by Doyen (1756-8). Image Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
The Death of Appius Claudius
With these new laws in place, the people feel confident enough to seek vengeance. Appius Claudius, the most despised decemvir, is the first to be targeted. His attempted abduction of the free Roman maiden, Verginia, comes back to haunt him as her father is now a tribune of the plebs.
In both Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Verginius pursues Appius Claudius and has him arrested, seemingly with the intention of bringing him to trial. But while he awaits justice in prison, Appius Claudius ends up dead. At this point the accounts of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus diverge. You won’t want to miss all the twists and turns that accompany his demise!
Our Players
The Decemvirs
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
The Senators
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
The Verginii and Supporters
Verginia – a Roman maiden, murdered by her father in order to protect her from the lust of Appius Claudius
Verginius – father of Verginia and newly elected tribune of the plebs
Publius Numitorius – Verginia’s maternal uncle and newly elected tribune of the plebs
Lucius(?) Icilius – Verginia’s betrothedand newly elected tribune of the plebs
Tribunes of the Plebs, 449 BCE
Lucius Verginius
Lucius Icilius (who had served as a tribune previously)
Publius Numitorius
Gaius Sicinius – son of the man who was first tribune chosen on Sacred Mount (L?.Sicinius)
Marcus Duillius (who had served as a tribune previously)
Marcus Titinius
Marcus Pomponius
Gaius Apronius
Appius Villius
Gaius Oppius
Other Notables
Gaius Claudius – uncle of Appius Claudius
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 11.45-46
Thanks to Orange Free Sounds, BBC Sounds, and Sound Bible for sound effects and the incomparable Bettina Joy de Guzman for our music.
Special Episode – Disruption with David Potter
Sep 23, 2021
Disruption is at the heart of great changes in human society. How might we understand disruption? How can we recognise it? And just what historical precedents do we have for successful change? We sit down with Professor David Potter to examine just these kinds of questions!
David Potter is Francis W. Kelsey Collegiate Professor of Greek and Roman History and Arthur F. Thurnau Professor at the University of Michigan and has written extensively on the ancient world. In his latest book Disruption: Why Things Change, Professor Potter considers the disruption in Rome that reverberates today: the rule of Constantine and the relationship of Rome with the Christian Church.
Special Episode – Disruption with David Potter
The Disruption of Constantine
Setting the stage is the life and times of the Roman Emperor Constantine. He is famous for bringing Christianity into Roman imperialism in a way that would have been unthinkable to Romans of previous generations. Professor Potter takes us through some of the pivotal moments in Constantine’s rule. These are revealing for how Constantine builds towards consensus with Christian bishops.
What does this change look like to the Romans? How did the thinking about Christians change? What steps did Constantine take that separated him from the emperors that came before?
All this and more comes up for discussion in this episode.
Statue of Constantine at York. He became emperor in 306 CE in Roman Eboracum, now modern York. This statue is a modern piece by the sculptor Philip Jackson and was unveiled in 1998. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Disruption as a Model for Action
One of the key threads in Potter’s book is that there are recognisable patterns for successful moments of disruption. A consideration of Constantine and Christianity in Rome is really just the tip of the iceberg with this text. Potter’s view extends beyond ancient Rome to consider the rise of Islam, the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment and French Revolution, as well as disruptive political theories such as those of Marx and Spencer.
What we see by taking a long view of history is that there’s room to consider disruption not just as a culmination of circumstances, but as a potentiality that can be tapped into.
Things to Listen Out for
The writer Eusebius’ enthusiasm for Constantine’s adoption of Christianity
The Donatist controversy in North Africa involving book burning
Constantine’s letter to the Praetorian Prefect
Julian’s Theodoric Neoplatonism!
The emperor Heraclius and the kings of Persia
Significant Works by Professor Potter
The Origin of Empire: Rome from the Republic to Hadrian
Constantine the Emperor
The Victor’s Crown: A History of Ancient Sport from Homer to Byzantium
Theodora: Actress, Empress, Saint
Disruption: Why Things Change
Disruption: Why Things Change by David Potter
Episode 117 – The Death of the Decemvirate
Sep 16, 2021
We have been trapped under the tyrannical rule of the Second Decemvirate for too long!
But never fear, listeners. Their day has finally come. In this episode, we finally see the decemvirs overthrown and the office of tribune of the plebs restored. It is a time of non-stop drama!
Episode 117 – The Death of the Decemvirate
All About the Aventine
With Dionysius of Halicarnassus’ account getting very patchy, and Diodorus Siculus considered unreliable, Livy provides the bulk of the detail for this episode. The movements of the plebeians are a little confusing, but two locations are mentioned, the Mons Sacer (or Sacred Mount) and the Aventine. Both of these locations were also mentioned in the accounts of the First Secession of the Plebs in 494 BCE, but the Sacred Mount is definitely most associated with this event.
In 449 BCE, the Aventine seems to play more of a role. Cicero’s references to the Second Secession in his pro Cornelio and de re Publica indicate that the plebs seceded to the Mons Sacer before heading to the Aventine Hill, whereas Livy’s plebs move from the hill to the Sacred Mount when it becomes clear that the senate was not making any decisions in a hurry. Diodorus Siculus only mentions the Aventine. With such a spotlight on this location, Dr Rad started reading the excellent work of Lisa Marie Mignone (2016). She has investigated the Aventine as it has developed a reputation as being particularly plebeian – but why?
The Significance of the Aventine
Mignone explains that the link between the Aventine and the plebs was firmly established by Alfred Merlin’s L’Aventin dans l’antiquité (1906), and Mignone is not so sure that we should be labelling any region of the city this way. However, there are a few notable reasons for this association, outside of the secessions:
the lex Icilia de Aventino publicando from 456 BCE (which seems to have led to the distribution of land on the Aventine to plebeian families) and
it was the locale of the temple of Ceres, and Gaius Gracchus (a troublesome tribune of the plebs) fled to the Aventine in 121 BCE when his career took sour turn. Indeed, Gracchus was zeroing in on the temple of Diana Aventiniensis, which Dionysius claimed was the plebs place of retreat during the Second Secession.
However, hundreds years separate these instances, and since the majority of Rome’s populace were plebeian, is that enough to claim the Aventine had a distinctly plebeian character? This will be something we shall continue to explore as we progress through the Republic.
The Ultimatum
As Livy provides the most extensive narrative for this part of the tale, we pursue his version of events. The Senate continues to dither, despite the threat posed by a group of armed men on the outer edge of the city. Tired of waiting, the rebel army decide to leave the Aventine for the Mons Sacer (or Sacred Mount), and are followed by many Roman citizens, united in their determination to show the patricians that they mean business. It’s either the plebeians or the decemvirs, and the senators need to choose! The days of the decemvirate might be numbered!
It Takes Two, Baby
With the city of Rome practically deserted, Valerius and Horatius are finally able to persuade their fellow senators that the decemvirate needs to end. Rome needs her plebeians back! The dynamic duo set off to negotiate an end to the second secession and the plebs manage to secure the return of the tribune of the plebs. According to Dr G’s account, they may even have secured an upgrade in status for the decisions made by the tribal assembly. From now on, the tribal assembly would be on equal footing with the centuriate assembly and the decisions of the plebeians would apply to everyone in the city.
With the reassurance that there would be no punishments for the secession, the plebs agree to return to Rome… just in time to witness the official resignation of the decemvirate. Appius is not happy about it, but most of his fellow Roman have ceased to care about his feelings by now.
Our Players
The Decemvirs
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Spurius Oppius Cornicen
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Manius Rabuleius
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
The Senators
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
The Verginii and Supporters
Verginia
Verginius – father of Verginia
Publius Numitorius – Verginia’s maternal uncle
Lucius(?) Icilius – former tribune of the plebs and Verginia’s betrothed
Other Notables
Marcus Duillius (a former plebeian tribune)
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 11.44 and Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheca Historica 12.25
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 3.52-54
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ungern-Sternberg, J. von. 2005. “The Formation of the ‘Annalistic Tradition’: The Example of the Decemvirate” in Raaflaub, K. A. ed. 2005. Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders, Expanded and Updated Edition (Blackwell), pp 75-97
Music and Sound Effects
Additional music and sound in this episode includes an original composition for our podcast by the glorious Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound Effects courtesy of BBC Sound Effects.
If you are interested in reading one of the major scholarly works we consulted for the episode, Mignone’s volume contains a lot of fascinating detail about the Aventine Hill!
Special Episode – Pompeii with Professor Ray Laurence
Aug 19, 2021
We sit down to talk to the fabulous Professor Ray Laurence from Macquarie University in this special episode about urban space in Pompeii and the place of children within the society. These topics are close to his heart as his work mostly focuses on:
The Roman City
Communications and Mobility – especially Roman roads
Age and Ageing in the Roman World
Special Episode – Pompeii with Professor Ray Laurence
You may also recognise his name because, in addition to his scholarly publications, Ray has worked with TEDEd to produce some amazing short videos on the life of children in Ancient Rome. Join us for this fascinating discussion on life in Pompeii!
The Urban Environment and Street Life
Pompeii is a very famous site, but there are a lot of misconceptions about what this place was actually like before the eruption. Ray Laurence explains why life in Pompeii was tough and how the built environment reflects the fact that this was a very average town. It had been around for centuries before the eruption in 79 CE and shares the influences of various people who lived in the region, including the Etruscans, the Oscans, the Samnites, and finally, the Romans.
The layout of Pompeii evolved over time and areas like the Forum were used in different ways throughout its existence. We can learn more about how people experienced the urban environment by piecing together a variety of evidence including wheel ruts, the width of streets, graffiti patterns, literature, and the building remains. While Pompeii may not have been especially fancy, it was a bustling town and people spent a lot of time in the streets, conducting business, conversing, stopping at shrines, fetching water, or grabbing some takeaway.
The Forum, Pompeii.
Children in Pompeii
We tend to see Pompeii from the perspective of adults as children leave less evidence – whether this is literary, archaeological or even human remains. Scholars such as Katherine Huntley and Ray Laurence urge us not to discount their experiences as they make up a sizeable proportion of the town. Once we start thinking about the urban layout from their perspective, it is surprising what we can discover.
By using the average heights of adults in Pompeii, we can approximate the growth of children in the towns and thus consider how accessible the amenities were for the smallest residents. For instance, children over six years old would probably be able to access water fountains and the bars, therefore securing their own food and drink! As they grew older, they would have had more ease of access to sacred spaces such as household shrines.
Katherine Huntley has carried out extensive global studies of children’s drawing and applied what they have uncovered to the graffiti of Pompeii. In spite of the differences in time and culture, there are patterns in how children start drawing that can help us to determine which samples of figural graffiti in Pompeii were produced by children.
The Temple of Isis, Pompeii.
There are also famous examples of children, such as Numerius Popidius Celsinus, a six year old who paid for the restoration of the Temple of Isis after it was damaged in the earthquake in 62 CE. In recognition of his contribution, he was elected to the town council! This seems odd to modern eyes, but Ray explains that he was not the only child to become a part of the ordo of decuriones. What we wish we knew was how these children moved around the town as they made their way to meetings! Nonetheless, these examples demonstrate that once we look a little harder, there is a lot that can be learned about the presence of children in Pompeii.
Sources and Further Reading
Huntley, K. V. (2018). ‘Children’s Graffiti in Roman Pompeii and Herculaneum.’ In The Oxford Handbook of the Archaeology of Childhood, edited by Sally Crawford, Dawn M. Hadley & Gillian Shepherd, 376-386. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
A still from ‘A Glimpse of Teenage Life in Ancient Rome’
Episode 116 – The Second Secession
Aug 12, 2021
CW: The accounts of Verginia include paedophilic desire and violence against women.
The Second Secession is a contested moment in Roman’s early republican history. The fallout from two key events lead us to this point according to our later written sources: one is the murder of Lucius Siccus Dentatus “the Roman Achilles” and the other is the murder of the young plebeian Verginia (also known as Virginia). We’ll be exploring what the sources can tell us and what we might make of this challenging moment in Rome’s history.
Episode 116 – The Second Secession
The Second Decemvirate
In what feels like a period of time packed with action, the second decemvirate continues to rule in Rome. Originally placed in power to oversee the the project of writing down laws, there has been a big shift from serving the state to serving their own self-interest. With all other magistracies suspended while the decemvirate remains in power, Rome feels increasingly adrift. The further things drift, the more likely a secession of the plebeians becomes…
Looking to recap earlier material on the decemvirate? It all begins with Episode 109!
Fathers in Rome
We follow Verginius, the father of Verginia, who flees Rome after murdering her in the forum and returns to the armed forces. How he copes with his grief and what he chooses to do next will determine much of what follows. This leads us to consider the nature of Roman patriarchal society. What do the Romans value when it comes to familial and state structures and how does this system affect men and women differently?
Being a father is one role that many Roman men fulfilled, but it came with other duties like those to the state. We spend time in Roman camps, with men reflecting on their duty, what might be politically appropriate, and what kind of leadership they want from the ruling elite. All of this should give the patricians pause. It certainly has the decemvirate worried.
Things to come as the Secession hots up
Tune in the hear the conflicting accounts of this period that come down to us including:
The call to revolt against the decemvirs and restore the republic!
The rumour that the decemvirate has already been overthrown and doesn’t require anyone’s revolution!
The sacred quality of the army standards
Rival groups of ten!
Guillaume Guillon-Lethière c. 1800 The Death of Virginia. You can explore this artwork in detail of Google Arts & Culture
Our Players
The Decemvirs
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Spurius Oppius Cornicen
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Manius Rabuleius
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
The Senators
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
The Verginii and Supporters
Verginia
Verginius – father of Verginia
Publius Numitorius – Verginia’s maternal uncle
Lucius(?) Icilius – former tribune of the plebs and Verginia’s betrothed
Other Notables
Spurius Tarpeius
Gaius Julius
Publius Sulpicius
Marcus Oppius
Sextus Malius (or Manlius)
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 11.40-44 and Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheca Historica 12.22-25
Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita3.49-51
Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Ungern-Sternberg, J. von. 2005. “The Formation of the ‘Annalistic Tradition’: The Example of the Decemvirate” in Raaflaub, K. A. ed. 2005. Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders, Expanded and Updated Edition (Blackwell), pp 75-97
Music and Sound Effects
Additional music and sound in this episode includes an original composition for our podcast by the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound Effects courtesy of BBC Sound Effects Beta, and 13NHarri.
Episode 115 – The Anatomy of a Murder
Jul 15, 2021
CW: The accounts of Virginia include paedophilic desire and violence against women.
Virginia has been murdered by her own father in the Forum in an attempt to protect her from the decemvir Appius Claudius. As far as Virginius and most other Roman dads are concerned, death is better than dishonour. What will this act mean for Virginius and his family? How will it impact Appius Claudius? Tune in to find out as we venture once more into the rule of the Second Decemvirate and deal with the aftermath of one of the crises of the Conflict of the Orders.
Looking to get up to sped on Verginia’s story so far – it begins here. Yes, you’re right, there’s a variety of ways to spell her name!
Episode 115 – The Anatomy of a Murder
Charlotte Mary Yong 1880. The Death of Verginia. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Chaos in the City
Even though this is a key moment in the conflict between patricians and plebeians, there are still some intriguing differences in the accounts provided by Livy and Dionysius. In Dr Rad’s account, Verginius is quick to fight his way out of Rome in the midst of the chaos with a band of supporters, leaving Verginia’s fiancée Icilius and her uncle Numitorius to display the body of the murdered girl to the crowd.
In a scene very reminiscent of Lucretia’s body being used to incite the overthrow of the monarchy, Verginia’s corpse is used as a symbol of the corruption of the Second Decemvirate and the crowd starts to get dangerous. It seems that they may also have some allies – the disgruntled patricians who also despise the decemvirs. The leaders of this faction include Valerius and Horatius, and they are getting a lot of love from the citizens for standing up to Appius Claudius and his cronies.
Meanwhile, in Dionysius’ account, there is a lot more focus on the fate of Verginia’s body. When Appius tries to have her removed from the Forum, the people claim her body for their own and stage a funeral procession for the murdered girl. Livy and Dionysius clearly have included different details regarding the aftermath of her death, but in both accounts, she is clearly a symbol in life and death.
These stories highlight how women are used by male writers to draw attention to the virtues and vices of the men around them. In this sense, these histories were not striving for an analytical and objective account, but one that promoted a desirable ideology for their own time. It is very clear that these were histories designed to inspire those who read them to act in ways that would benefit the state and keep order.
A Real Cliffhanger
In spite of their differences, both Livy and Dionysius end up leading us to the same point. We switch from events in Rome to Verginius’ return to his army encampment. Covered in the blood of his daughter and still clutching the murder weapon, he makes a rousing speech in both accounts, trying to persuade his fellow-soldiers that the real criminal in this sordid affair is Appius Claudius. Will the soldiers support him in seeking vengeance against the decemvir? Or will the tyrannous rule of the ten continue?
Gabriel François Doyen c. 1757. La Mort de Virginie (The Death of Virginia)
Our Players
The Decemvirs
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Spurius Oppius Cornicen
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Manius Rabuleius
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
The Senators
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
The Verginii and Supporters
Verginia
Verginius – father of Verginia
Publius Numitorius – Verginia’s maternal uncle
Lucius(?) Icilius – former tribune of the plebs and Verginia’s betrothed
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy, From the Founding of the City 3.48-50
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities 11.37-40
Additional music and sound in this episode includes an original composition for our podcast by the wonderful Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound Effects courtesy of Audio Micro and Fesliyan Studios.
Sandro Botticelli c. 1496-1504. The Story of Virginia. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons. This painting presents the different phases of Virginia’s story in different parts of the painting. From left to right: Virgina is violated by Marcus Claudius while in the company of other women; Marcus Claudius takes her to the tribunal presided by Appius Claudius who declares her to a slave; The family of Virginia plead for justice; Verginius murders Virginia and then flees Rome on horseback.
Episode 114 – The Tale of Verginia
Jun 17, 2021
CW: The accounts of Verginia include paedophilic desire, violence against women
The story of Verginia is an achingly tragic tale central to understanding the Second Decemvirate. Both Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus go into some detail about what happens and how it unfolds and we’ll explore both accounts to compare and contrast them.
Episode 114 – The Tale of Verginia
Reading our Sources on Verginia
Dr Rad takes us through the complexities of thinking about Livy’s context and how that might influence his presentation of the material. Dr G explores the connection between the Latin term virgo (virgin) and her name Verginia. There’s plenty of parallels that will emerge between Verginia’s story and the story of Lucretia, whose fate seals the demise of the Roman monarchy.
What Horror…
Verginia is the daughter of a well-known centurion who is fighting on one of Rome’s frontiers. But conflict emerges when Appius Claudius decides that he wants her for himself. He seems heedless to reason or morality when it comes to Verginia and this leads him to engage in a set of behaviours that are appalling.
What to listen out for
Verginia’s story is one that involves a number of strange and dangerous concepts:
Claiming people from the street as slaves
Convoluted plans to remove a young woman from her family
Legal arguments around the claim that someone is a slave
Arguments for how to protect women’s virginity
What does it mean to be a citizen?
Official summons and strategies to foil summons
Groups of women akin to a tragic chorus
A butcher stand and the connection of Venus with the Cloaca Maxima
Our Players
Decemvirs
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Spurius Oppius Cornicen
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Manius Rabuleius
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
Appius Claudius’ client
Marcus Claudius
The Verginii and Supporters
Verginia
Verginius – father of Verginia
Numitoria – mother of Verginia
Publius Numitorius – Verginia’s maternal uncle
Lucius(?) Icilius – former tribune of the plebs and Verginia’s betrothed
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy 3.44-48
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Rom. Ant. 11.28-37
Joshel, S. 2002. ‘The Body Female and the Body Politic: Livy’s Lucretia and Verginia.’ In Sexuality and gender in the classical world: readings and sources, edited by Sandra R. Joshel & Laura K. McClure, 163-190. Oxford: Blackwell.
Keegan, P. 2021. Livy’s Women. New York: Oxon.
Sound Credits
Additional music and sound in this episode includes an original composition for our podcast by the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman
Heinrich Friedrich Fuger – The Death of Virginia. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons user Jbribeiro1
Special Episode – The Archaeology of Early Rome with Darius Arya
Jun 03, 2021
In this very special episode we’re joined by archaeologist Darius Arya. Darius has lived and worked as an archaeologist in Rome for over twenty years!
Special Episode – The Archaeology of Early Rome with Darius Arya
We wanted to learn more about the archaeological record for the early period of Rome’s history. While we’ve been focused on reading and interpreting the literary sources of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, there’s a wealth of other evidence for the ancient past to consider. Archaeology is fundamental in revealing elements of the past that aren’t written down. Even more interesting is that the archaeological remains can suggest new interpretations about the past that conflict or add complexity to the literary sources.
You may have seen Darius on television. He’s presented a number of documentaries on the ancient world and we are absolutely thrilled to explore Rome’s early history with his expertise. Things to listen out for in this episode:
The importance of topography
The connections between the Etruscan peoples and the Romans
Discussion of how the Etruscans dominate the archaeological record compared Rome’s other early neighbours, the Volscians and the Aequians
What we can say about the Sabine peoples
Key sites of interest when thinking about early Rome and her neighbours
We recommend having a map handy to spot all the places that are touched on in this far-ranging and engaging conversation. The map below has some of places mentioned on it and also provides some guidance on the languages of the different regions.
Darius Arya can be found on social media, posting about Rome and the sites he’s working on and the museums he’s collaborating with. You can catch him on Twitter @DariusAryaDigs, Instagram @dariusaryadigs, and his limited series podcast Darius Arya Digs.He is the director of The American Institute for Roman Culture. Their mission “to preserve and protect Rome’s extraordinary and unique cultural legacy through education, outreach, and action.” He is also the director of Ancient Rome Live which is dedicated to providing free-to-access resources for learning about ancient Rome.
Guide to Locations and Peoples
Aequians – the Aequian peoples are an Italic group that inhabited the Apennine mountains east of Rome and to the south of the Sabines.
Albano – in the Castelli Romani region to the south-east of Rome. There is a a lake and a hill named for Albano
Anio, river – The Anio starts in the Apennines east of Rome and flows through Tivoli before joining the Tiber
Antium – south of Rome and slightly east, a coastal city
The Castelli Romani region (please note this is to the south-east not south-west of Rome!) – includes the modern towns which are also ancient sites: Albano, Castel Gandolfo, Frascati, Tusculum. Often associated with the Aequians in the literary sources for the early Republic.
Castel Gandolfo – in the Castelli Romani region to the south-east of Rome. Most famous now as the location of the Pope’s summer residence!
Circeo (ancient Circeii) – South and east of Rome. A coastal site that is further south and further east than Antium. Modern San Felice Circeo, the site is known for its beach. In ancient Rome, this was where a treaty was signed between Carthage and Rome in 509 BCE!
Frascati – in the Castelli Romani region to the south-east of Rome.
Ostia – west of Rome, a port settlement at the mouth of the Tiber river.
Sabines – a peoples living to the east of Rome and north of the river Anio in the mountainous Apennine region
Sant’Omobono – an archaeological site in Rome next to the church of Sant’Omobono, at the junction of the modern via L. Petroselli and il Vico Jugario at the foot of the Campidoglio (the ancient Capitoline hill). This site contains altars and temples to Fortuna and Mater Matuta and is considered very important for understanding the development of urbanisation in Rome.
The Sant’Omobono archaeological site where temple remains date back to the 7th century BCE! Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Tusculum– in the Castelli Romani region to the south-east of Rome. Famous in our written sources for the early Republic as a friend of Rome, but also later famous as where Cicero had a villa.
Pomezia – directly south of Rome. The modern township on the ancient site of Lavinium and located in the Pontine marshes.
Veii – about sixteen kilometres north of Rome. An Etruscan city built on a plateau of tuff and was considered to be in an extremely defensible and strategic location. Veii is the most significant southern city of Etruria.
Volscians – the Volscian peoples are thought to be a group of Osco-Umbrian speakers who inhabited the area south of Rome, which is characterised by hills interspersed with marshes such as the Pontine marshes.
Episode 113 – Farewell to the Roman Achilles
May 13, 2021
We are deep in the Second Decemvirate (c. 449-447 BCE) and Rome faces war on two fronts. The complications of this new political arrangement and the increasing pressure of armed conflict places the decemvirate under stress as they need to decide how to lead Rome while facing patrician opposition from the Senate. All the while, Rome’s enemies head closer…
Episode 113 – Farewell to the Roman Achilles
Enter a Plebeian Hero!
Into this fiery atmosphere, Lucius Siccius Dentatus re-enters the narratives of Livy and Dionysius. He is both well-known and well-loved and we find him serving with the decemvirs at the Sabine front. And its not long before he begins to voice his dissatisfaction with the decemvirs’ approach to power. According to Livy he proposes succession…
Murder Most Foul
Our sources agree that Dentatus is murdered by his own and this episode is all about sifting through the details provided by Livy and Dionysius. Despite scholarly misgivings that Dentatus may be a fictionalised creation, there’s no denying that his presence in a historical narrative adds a certain exciting sheen to proceedings.
Things to tune in for:
Duelling accounts the murder of Dentatus
Murder investigations Roman style
The intriguing qualities of the legate
The amazing last stand of a plebeian hero
Looking to relive the highlights of Siccius Dentatus’ life? Check out our back catalogue:
and additional sound effects from BBC Sound Effects Beta
Aniello Falcone c. 1640. Roman soldiers in the circus. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons. Not a Roman battle or ambush, but a sense of Roman soldiers in movement to add to the story at hand.
Special Episode – Murder in Ancient Rome
May 06, 2021
One of the funniest pieces of theatre set in Ancient Rome has to be A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1962). Now there is a book about murder in Ancient Rome that matches the title inspiration for comedy as well.
We sat down to talk to historian and author Dr Emma Southon about her new book A Fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Dr Southon is also one of the hosts of the podcast History is Sexy and author of Agrippina: Empress, Exile, Hustler, Whore. We were excited to discover that not only does Emma share our affection for Julio-Claudian women, but she is a fellow murderino and lover of Drag Race at heart.
Special Episode – Murder in Ancient Rome with Dr Southon
Why is there so much DEATH in Ancient Rome?
Listeners of our podcast have probably already noticed just how many murders take place in Rome’s mythology and history. The foundation myth about the twins Romulus and Remus has fratricide at its very core. The overthrow of the kings and the beginning of the Republic was triggered by a rape and the suicide of Lucretia. These moments are probably mythological, but the fact that the Romans chose to tell such stories about themselves says a lot about their culture.
Oath of the Horatii (1784) by Jacques-Louis David. The tale of the Horatii is probably mythological. The three brothers volunteered to fight three brothers from one of Rome’s enemy cities, one of whom happened to be engaged to their sister. All the combatants perished, except one of the Horatii, who thus secured victory for his city. Upon his return to Rome, his sister wept as she knew her betrothed was dead. Her brother promptly ran her through, and his father defended the murder as justified. You can learn more about this episode in Rome’s early history in our Episode 38 – Tullus Hostilius. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
To add to this rather blood-soaked mythology, the history of Rome is punctuated with murders that take place at what are now seen as pivotal historical moments. The rather graphic murder of the Gracchi brothers during disputes over land reform, the assassination of Julius Caesar, and then we get to the empire and there are almost too many to list! The assassination of Gaius (Caligula), the murder of the emperor Claudius by his wife (and niece!) Agrippina the Younger, the brutal end of the emperor Vitellius in the civil wars of 69 CE, and the memorable stabbing of the emperor Domitian (straight to the groin!).
These are just the highlights, so it is clear why someone like Dr Emma Southon needed to sit down and think about just what all of this murder can tell us about Roman society.
What is the difference between murder and homicide?
Homicide is the act of killing another person, but murder is a social construct. With murder, you need to take the circumstances of the killing into account. Was there intent? Was it planned? Each modern country has different ways of constructing the crime of murder, but one thing that unites most nations in our world is that they do have a law about murder. That was not actually the case in Ancient Rome. Even though they were very proud of their first law code, The Twelve Tables, there was no legislation included regarding the killing of another human being. And they weren’t in a rush to amend that either!
Dr Emma Southon takes us on a hair-curling journey through a variety of killings in the Roman world.
What to expect in this episode?
Murder by and of the elite
Murder in the imperial family
Murdering emperors
Murder in the family
Murder in a marriage
Murder by magic
Murder by the state
Murder of and by slaves
An view of the Flavian Amphitheatre (or Colosseum). The Romans were big believers in capital punishment – who has the time or resources for rehabilitation? A criminal had done something to make Rome suffer, and so their death would also involve suffering. Executions were something that crowds of people would watch for amusement in theatres like this one, although they were often far less popular than beast hunts and gladiatorial shows… both of which also involved death and murder! Image by Davi Pimentel from Pexels
What becomes disturbingly clear is just how much murder there must have been in the Roman world, some real and some imagined. Given how little material has survived from the ancient world, to have a picture like this emerge is quite shocking. Even more sickening is how clearly Roman society valued certain lives far above others. The study of murder highlights how little your death mattered without the ‘right’ connections and status. The fact that modern societies are still wrestling with these issues is perhaps the most sobering take-away.
We highly recommend picking up a copy of Emma’s book to get the full scoop on all of these topics. And if all of this doesn’t give you your true crime fix for the day, then you should probably consider seeking professional help!
If you have the chance, we recommend supporting independent booksellers:
Episode 112 – The Disastrous Decemvirs
Apr 15, 2021
We pick up the action straight from the dramatic senate meeting from the previous episode in which was marked by conflict:
Lucius Valerius Potitus and Marcus Horatius Barbatus opposed the decemvirs and faced violent intimidation
and lead decemvir Appius Claudius faced off against his uncle Gaius Claudius.
Episode 112 – The Disastrous Decemvirs
The Conflict Continues
Once again, we see clear division between the members of the senate. Speaking in favour of the decemvirs is Lucius Cornelius Maluginensis, who just happens to be the brother of one of the decemvirs. He emphasises the need to deal with the external threat from the Sabines and the Aequians, rather than stirring up opposition to their leaders. Cornelius’ views win some support, but Lucius Valerius Potitus is determined to speak as well. Valerius feels the need to highlight how dire the political situation is in Rome. Will these decemvirs ever give up their power? What is to be done?
Taking on the Enemy
As there is no right of appeal against the decemvirs, the levy is held to raise an army. The decemvirs divide the commands between them, with some sent against the Sabines, some are off to deal with the Aequians, and Appius Claudius and Spurius Oppius intend to hold the fort in Rome itself. If they were thinking that this was their time to shine, they are sadly mistaken as they face defeat across the board. Support for this regime, such as it was, is evaporating quickly and the decemvirs start taking ever more drastic measures to maintain their grip on power.
Things to Come
Patrician versus patrician conflict
People fleeing the city
Military defeats on every front
Murder and mayhem
The popularity of the decemvirs sinks lower still
Our Players
The Second Decemvirate
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
Spurius. Oppius Cornicen
Manius Rabuleius
The Senators
Lucius Cornelius Maluginensis (brother of decemvir Marcus Cornelius)
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
Gaius Claudius (uncle of Appius Claudius)
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.39-40
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman History 11.16-24
Sound Credits
Additional music and sound in this episode includes:
and additional sound effects from BBC Sound Effects Beta, Orange Free Sounds, Sound Bible and Fesilyan Studios
A picture of the Roman forum as it can be seen today including the Curia Julia (senate house). The Curia Julia was not where our decemvirs would have met as this curia was built in 44 BCE by Julius Caesar. Caesar’s curia replaced the Curia Cornelia which was itself a replacement for the Curia Hostilia. This image is courtesy of Rachel Claire via Pexels.
Special Episode – Disability in Ancient Greece
Apr 08, 2021
There are many groups that are often overlooked in both ancient and modern societies. One of those are people with disabilities, and we were fortunate to talk to expert Dr Debby Sneed about her work on impairment in antiquity. Dr Sneed has examined a range of sources about this topic, including human remains, temples and textual evidence.
Her focus has mostly been on physical impairments that leave a trace in human remains. Sneed’s focus is ancient Greece, but we couldn’t resist bringing Rome into the conversation every now and then!
In order to make this episode as accessible as possible, a full transcript will be provided for this episode.
Special Episode – Disability in Ancient Greece with Dr Debby Sneed
What’s up for discussion?
In this conversation we delve into a number of questions, including:
How do you classify a disability in this line of research?
How many people in the ancient world would have had a disability?
What kinds of sources are available for studying disability in the ancient world?
What would life have been like for people with disabilities in the ancient world?
Topics that come up in the conversation:
Artistic representations of disability in Greece and Rome
Welfare systems in ancient Athens, as highlighted by Lysias 24, For The Disabled Man.
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out some of the suggested readings. This is a huge topic, and we did not get the chance to discuss issues that leave less of a physical trace, such as blindness or muteness, nor did we touch on disabilities that might have arisen from disease or mental illness.
This vase by the ‘Clinic Painter’ is one of Dr Debby Sneed’s favourites. It may show two men in a courtship pose, but this is still debated by scholars. One of the men is a dwarf or little person. Photograph by Maria Daniels, courtesy of the Musée du Louvre, January 1992.
Transcript
[00:00:00]
Dr Rad
Hello, there! You are in for a treat and you’re going to be hearing a special episode from The Partial Historians. Today we’re going to be talking to Dr. Debby Sneed. Dr. Debby Sneed is a lecturer in Classics at California State University. She has a PhD in Archaeology from UCLA. And a MA in Classics from the University of Colorado, at Boulder, as well as a BA in English and History from the University of Wyoming. She has worked on archaeological projects in Greece, Italy, Ethiopia, and the American Southwest.
[00:00:46] And she’s currently working on a monograph about disability accommodations in ancient Greece. She’s got some publications that are also forthcoming. So keep your eyes peeled for that. But in the meantime, here is our episode with Dr. Debby Sneed.
[00:01:09]
Welcome to a special edition of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.
Dr G
And I’m Dr. G. And we are super excited today to be sitting down with Dr. Debby Sneed. And we’re going to be looking at disability in ancient Greece, and potentially also, as a side note, a little bit of ancient Rome coming from us.
[00:01:31]
Dr Rad
Absolutely. You know, we can’t resist that and I must admit, this is a topic that, I’m going to admit full disclosure. I apologize to both of you. I have never really thought that much about disability in the ancient world, which is actually doubly shameful because, on a personal note, I’m just going to throw it out there. I actually have a condition which means that I’m gradually losing my hearing. And I’ve actually lost quite a lot. I wear hearing aids now. And so, I suppose, I have a very mild disability, which, I’m really lucky, it doesn’t affect my life too much at this point in time. But it’s something that I suppose has been coming more and more into my life as I lose more hearing.
[00:02:08] So I’m really fascinated to get talking about disability in the ancient world and what that entails.
Dr G
Yeah, so it’s fantastic to have you here, Debby, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, thank you for having me. I’m glad to be here to talk about this.
Dr Rad
So like dive straight in with, uh, with one of our first questions, which is exactly how do you define or classify a disability in your research?
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:02:30] This is a really difficult question for a lot of reasons. And one of them has to do with a lot of the attitudes that people bring to the topic of disability in the modern period. Um, but for me, in my research, I focus specifically on physical disabilities. My work is primarily interdisciplinary, which means I look at material and evidence from a lot of different fields and reconcile them in various ways.
[00:02:52] So I look at not just literary evidence and artistic evidence, but also physical remains. So I studied human remains as well. And so in [00:03:00] order to do this correctly, I tried to look at things that could potentially be archaeologically recovered, uh, in that is specifically physical disabilities. So I look at things like cleft palate, missing limbs, short stature, stuff like that.
Dr Rad
[00:03:16] Maybe just building on that. Can you tell us a little bit about this, the sites that you’ve looked at in your research when you’ve been looking at the human remains or do you, or do they – the human remains – come to you?
Dr Debby Sneed
Well, the human remains come to me. I am not a bio-archaeologist, so I rely on the work and the reports that are filed by people who are skeletal archaeologists, osteoarchaeologist, bio-archaeologists.
[00:03:38] And so I am beholden to who’s doing work where. And so I have used things like, uh, there’s a lot of great work done from cemeteries in Northern Greece, specifically Pydna, for example, Amphipolis, um, a lot of great work being done from cemeteries and deposits in Athens. But also in places like, Thebes.
[00:03:58] Um, and so it just sort [00:04:00] of depends on what’s available and who’s doing the analysis. And if they’re asking the kinds of questions that will help me in identifying who is potentially disabled and what we can say about it.
Dr Rad
Absolutely. And so roughly how many people do you think would have been classified as disabled in the ancient world?
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:04:20] It’s kind of an impossible question for a lot of reasons. Uh, first of all, there’s not really a category of the disabled in ancient Greece. So now we have sort of legal definitions as included, as well as societal definitions of what is disability, who is disabled, but that just didn’t exist in the ancient world.
[00:04:38] So even if the ancient Greeks did keep, sort of records of things like this, they wouldn’t have used disability as a category for keeping track of the population. Second of all, disability is, it’s really fluid as a concept, right? So you can be disabled for a period of time and then become cured or well, or something like that.
[00:04:57] Um, you could also be non-disabled for most of [00:05:00] your life and then become disabled. You could be involved in a battle, for example, where you become injured and it leads to a permanent disability, old age leads to disability. So right now, the World Health Organization estimates that about 15% of the world’s population is disabled.
In the United States [00:05:18] the estimates are somewhere between 20 to 25% of the population. Uh, it’s actually the largest minority group in the United States. So these are modern statistics and it’s not possible to sort of import those to the ancient world. The reasons that people are disabled, how people become disabled, and how we classify disability would have been quite different.
[00:05:37] But we can probably guess, based on a variety of evidence, that a great number of people in the ancient world either lived with a disability from birth or became disabled or interacted on a very close basis, either as a family member or a close community member with somebody who was disabled.
Dr Rad
Yeah, it’s actually something that I suddenly realized how horrifying it [00:06:00] really was. [00:06:00] How many people must have had to live in discomfort or just with constant inconvenience in the ancient world. Because when you think about it, when I was looking at the research, I really liked this idea that, you could really only classify someone as having a disability, if the society they live in doesn’t really help them out anyway. [00:06:20] And it doesn’t meet their needs in some ways. So for example, I wouldn’t classify myself as having a disability per se, because I have access to hearing aids because I live in a society and I have a job where I can afford them. But in a different context, I might be, I might be classified that way because I wouldn’t have access to an aid, which allows me to do my work.
[00:06:39] And when you think about the lack of technology and all that kind of stuff available in the ancient world, it is really quite staggering, isn’t it?
Dr Debby Sneed
So, what you’re describing there is actually called the social model of disability. So people who are engaged in studies of disability in the past and present, people involved in disability activism, operate – at least tend to operate – according to different models of disability. [00:07:00] And the social model of disability is one that is very prevalent in disability studies, but it’s specifically organized against what’s called the medical model of disability.
The medical model is something that situates the problem of disability in the body of the disabled person. It says you are the problem. [00:07:17] And in order to overcome your disability, you need to overcome your own body, right? And so this is where treatments and cures and rehabilitation specifically focus on correcting the person with the disability so that they can function in a quote unquote, “normal” society. Right.
The social model of disability is kind of the opposite of that, right? [00:07:37] So what the social model of disability does is, sort of like what early feminist scholarship did with sex and gender where sex is considered sort of a biological fact and gender was something that was imposed on to sex, right? So the social model of disability does something like that with impairment and disability.
[00:07:56] Impairment being so the biological reality of a body [00:08:00], so missing limbs, loss of hearing, deafness, uh, vision impairments, things like that. And disability is something that’s imposed externally on the impaired body. So disability is then a problem of society and not a problem of the individual and correcting disability means disability accommodations.
[00:08:19] It means creating an environment that allows the impaired people to survive. Not just survive, but exist and thrive and participate in society.
Dr G
If we’re thinking about ancient Greece and how these models might be playing out, because obviously even though ancient Greek people themselves might not be thinking in terms of these models, they might still be useful ways of looking and thinking about the evidence that’s left behind.
[00:08:45] How would you say that you see these kinds of models present in the evidence from the ancient world?
Dr Debby Sneed
Well, some of these models are in my own research, keeping in mind that, for example, the social model of disability is not without its problems. So there’s [00:09:00] some really great work done by, for example, Tom Shakespeare, on the problems of the social model of disability, talking about how it kind of treats the impairment as if it’s irrelevant, right? [00:09:08] Um, but that’s actually not the reality for a lot of people with disabilities; that, while there are problems that are created by society, impairment in and of itself is not neutral, right? It is something that they live with. It is something that affects their experience of the world, their interactions with people.
[00:09:25] And so, um, there’s a lot of movement away from the social model, not just to amend the social model, but actually to take a completely different approach. One of the things that I really like about the social model of disability is its emphasis on contingency. And what that means is that, um, what is considered disabling, what impairments are considered disabling is going to change depending on the context.
[00:09:47] And so what I do in my research is I try to look at accommodations for disability, so ways that I can see that society changed to account for the fact of impairment, um, and [00:10:00] use that as a kind of metric for understanding how the ancient Greeks thought about people with disabilities. So, um, not just looking at the instances in myth or in tragedy, for example, where we might have comments about people who are disabled, but looking instead at the structures of society to see how they changed or didn’t change depending on the needs of the population.
[00:10:20] It’s specifically focused on, um, things that were intended or could have benefited people with disabilities.
Dr Rad
It’s been really fascinating actually, to look at some of your work. I believe that you’ve done quite a lot of study on the use of, uh, ramps to try and help people access temples or sanctuaries and that sort of thing [00:10:39] in ancient Greece, if they had some sort of mobility impairment.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. So this is an article that, that I wrote on ramps specifically, focused on ramps and healing sanctuaries in ancient Greece. So ramps are a kind of feature that we’re really familiar with, especially in a type of Greek architecture called Doric architecture, [00:11:00] which we primarily situated in the Peloponnese, even though it’s not completely confined to the Peloponnese.
[00:11:06] So we don’t really see a lot of ramps. I think a recent study of – a sort of catalogue of ramps in the ancient Greek world – found fewer than twenty, like total ramps on temple buildings, specifically in the Greek world. So that is not a lot of ramps or a lot more temples than twenty. And so when I was looking at the distribution, however, of those ramps, um, and looking at not just temple buildings, but also secondary and subsidiary buildings at sanctuaries, the healing sanctuary of Asclepius at Epidaurus has eleven built ramps.
[00:11:37] So if I consider the fact –
Dr G
Oh wow
Dr Debby Sneed
– yeah. If you consider that most sanctuaries have no ramps or one ramp, the fact that this one sanctuary has eleven ramps needs to be explained in some way. And so I moved to then to think, okay, how could we explain this?
So the traditional explanations for ramps are having to do with animals. [00:11:57] You know, that this would be an easier way, uh, [00:12:00] for animals to enter the buildings. Except that animals didn’t enter the buildings. And so that doesn’t really work as an explanation. Animals that were sacrificed were sacrificed outside of the temple. And you can’t really imagine bringing a bowl, for example, into a temple with all of this, the furniture, all of the dedications that were housed in there.
[00:12:19] Uh, other explanations, um, include, uh, sort of wheeling dedications in and out. So if you imagine people dedicate stone statues, for example, or marble statues, those are very heavy. So maybe you would want to use a ramp so that you could wheel it in and out.
However, there are specific treasury buildings in ancient Greek sanctuaries. [00:12:38] We can think of the treasuries at Delphi, for example, or at Olympia. And the explicit function of these very small buildings was to house really expensive and heavy dedications. And these buildings never have ramps. And so if ramps facilitated the movement of these heavy dedications, we would expect them to be on buildings whose only job was to hold these dedications.
Dr G
[00:13:00] Yeah, the last thing you’d want to do is, like, wheel something in there and then make it really easy for somebody to wheel it back out again.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, exactly. So possibly they had sort of temporary ramps for those purposes. I have no idea. And so when you look at the fact that most of the explanations that have been [00:13:17] put forth for ramps at sanctuaries just don’t work, right. And then also look at how many ramps there are at healing sanctuaries, which were specifically marketed to people with disabilities. It just sort of fits together into this really great picture of a sort of intentional purpose, an intentional building of these ramps to assist the pilgrims who came to the healing sanctuaries in search of healing.
Dr Rad
[00:13:40] So I’m really curious to ask, exactly what do you think – from your studies – life would have been like for people with the kind of disabilities that you study in the ancient world? because, I mean, I know that’s a massive question because there’s just a huge amount, as you mentioned before, of conditions and just, you know, [00:14:00] factors like age that could be what’s causing someone to have some sort of mobility impairment. But can you tell us anything about what you think life would’ve been like from what you’ve looked at?
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:14:10] Yeah, sure. I don’t think that it’s, it’s another kind of impossible question. Um, life in the ancient world for anybody disabled or not disabled was difficult, right? So we tend to think about ancient Greek life, we think about philosophers, Aristotle and Plato. We think about generals. Uh, we think about the names of people that we can think of. [00:14:31] And, uh, those were not the typical people who are living in ancient Greece. These are very privileged, very elite men. And so, for the most part, people are engaged in subsistence agriculture, right? They’re sort of living harvest to harvest. Life was just difficult in general. People worked all the time. They were constantly engaged in all sorts of things.
[00:14:51] Um, so this idea of a sort of easy life in the ancient world is based on a very small segment of the population. But even when you’re thinking about that, [00:15:00] we have evidence for people with disabilities in both classes of people. So among elite men, as well as among the more general population.
And it’s impossible to say what life was like. [00:15:09] It really depended on somebody’s status on their gender, on their wealth, et cetera. But we have evidence for disabled slaves. We have evidence for disabled generals. We have evidence for disabled Kings, disabled women, women who sort of gave birth to Kings, right? Who were themselves, the women were themselves disabled.
[00:15:28] So you can’t really pinpoint a specific thing because there’s something that Martha Rose has talked a lot. She’s a big, big person in the study of disability in ancient Greece. One of the things that she’s really emphasized is what she calls the community model of disability. Where it didn’t really depend on the sort of functional limitations of your body, but instead on your functional ability within the community. [00:15:49] And so everything was negotiated on a sort of individual basis. What could you do? What couldn’t you do? Could that be accommodated? Who are you? Are you expected to be contributing in one way and you [00:16:00] can’t et cetera? It just depends on so many different factors that, um, it’s really not possible to say what life would have been like in the generic sense for somebody with a disability.
Dr G
[00:16:10] And that’s really interesting as well, if we’re thinking about just how many ramps are associated with that sanctuary to Asclepius as well, because it seems like that feeds into a bigger idea about, well, how do we go about looking after the people in our community who potentially are suffering from disabilities? [00:16:30] How do we negotiate that and how do we come together as a community to try and solve that problem?
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, this is one of the, there was a lot of interesting feedback that I got about that article. And a lot of it was just incredulity at the idea that the ancient Greeks would have given conscious thought to people with disabilities.
[00:16:48] But I find that to be a very surprising reaction. Ancient Greeks had a God of healing. It’s not objectively true that every society will have a God of healing. So the Greeks [00:17:00] had a God, Asclepius, who was dedicated to healing other gods focused on healing as well, okay. So it’s not, it’s not a given that they’ll have a God of healing.
[00:17:07] It’s then not a given that they will build elaborate sanctuaries to that God. Okay, so this is another step of sort of cultural or societal choice that they’re making. And once you make the choice that you want to have a sanctuary, that people who are ill, people who are disabled, people who are injured, that they can come here to seek healing. [00:17:28] Once you’ve made that decision, it’s not a big leap to assume that the ancient Greeks would have considered what would make that effective to that purpose.
So in much the same way that the sanctuary of Zeus at Olympia, which hosted these huge athletic games every four years – and sort of original Olympics – had athletic facilities, right? [00:17:45] So it had gyms. It had places for people to stay who came for the games. It had all sorts of athletic facilities because they hosted the athletic games. Sanctuaries where they did ritual dining, where dining was a really important function of your ritual practice [00:18:00], they had dining rooms. Sanctuaries where water played an important element, were built near water sources, right?
[00:18:07] It’s not, it’s not sort of radical to think that if they built a sanctuary specifically intended to serve people with disabilities, that they would consider what would actually be effective for that purpose. It’s more of a practical decision, um, than an ideological one.
So we tend to think about disability accommodations, ideologically, that we are this progressive society, that we care about people who are vulnerable, et cetera. [00:18:32] So we gray up to the privilege of accommodation, but for the Greeks, I think it was really just a practical choice.
Dr Rad
Yeah. I think looking at the literature and thinking about, as we said before, how, how much people must have either experienced disability themselves in varying ways, or have had close contact with someone who had a disability. [00:18:54] It seems that they – people with disabilities – must have been fairly [00:19:00] integrated into society. It’s not like they were necessarily, you know, shunned or anything like that. And, as you say, I mean, you look at Philip the Second of Macedon, you look at the emperor Claudius, there were people of high status as well who had, um, various impairments. [00:19:13] Although we can’t always be sure with Claudius exactly what the, you know, what was going on there. But yeah, there’s definitely a level of integration and practicality to the fact that these people, they are still working and they are getting married and they still have families. Some of them need families in order to have someone to help look after them and to help them maneuver the world.
Dr G
[00:19:34] And this seems to run counter to, like, one of the big sort of assumptions that people make about ancient Greece, which is that they just abandoned children on the side of the road. And this is something that gets repeated a lot. And, and the assumption being that children who were born, who didn’t fit the criteria of normalcy in ancient Greece would have been left to die. [00:19:56] And this would have reduced the percentage of people potentially with disability [00:20:00] in society at large.
I’m wondering if you could speak to that a little bit.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, I definitely can. I have an article coming out on this topic this year, actually in the journal Hesperia. Yeah. So it’s interesting because if you open any textbook, if you Google the topic, you’ll see very confidently stated that the ancient Greeks killed infants who were born with, [00:20:20] uh, noticeable physical deformities or disabilities. And this is based on, like almost no evidence, which is really interesting. It’s, it’s a myth, right?
So I present this in my article that I think that this is just a false, a false thing. And not only do the evidence that people put forth, does it not work to support this argument, but we also have a lot of evidence that argues against this, right? [00:20:43] That demonstrates people giving extraordinary care to infants who had more needs than other infants. So infants already require a great deal of care, right? So this is already, they need a lot of attention. They already need more care than an adult does, for example.
And [00:21:00] so. Um, you know, this is one of the things to keep in mind, right, this idea of sort of an intersectional approach to disability, that how old someone is really affects how they’re regarded in terms of disability, right? So we don’t expect adults to require a lot of care. And so somebody who does require a lot of care, deviates more from what’s expected or what’s typical, than an infant who already requires a lot of care and a disabled infant who might require a little bit more care.
[00:21:27] The gap between those things is much smaller than it would necessarily be for an adult, for example. Um, and so the evidence that people have for this practice of infanticide is, uh, primarily Plutarch, and Plutarch is a Roman author. And he says that the Spartan King Lycurgus instituted a law where parents brought their infants to a council of elders who evaluated the children and decided which ones should be raised and which ones should be killed.
[00:21:56] And it specifically mentioned that infants who are disabled are deformed as [00:22:00] specifically the word should be put out or exposed. Um, there’s no other evidence for this practice. So we have a bunch of other sources closer to the time of Lycurgus, if he was even real. People like Xenaphon, who were talking about the Spartans, were discussing Spartan law who were specifically talking about Lycurgus and no one else mentions this law.
[00:22:20] So Plutarch is the only one. It’s very weak evidence, especially because Plutarch’s starts his, his sort of biography of Lycurgus by saying, uh, something like concerning Lycurgus the law-giver there is, it’s not possible to say something that is undisputed, right? And so, um, it’s pretty shaky evidence to use.
[00:22:41] And then we also have a couple of prescriptions by Plato and Aristotle, the fourth century BCE philosophers, where they say that, um, they have these sort of utopian texts and they outline what their ideal society would look like. And both of them specifically mentioned disabled infants and about how they should either be sort of hidden away [00:23:00] or exposed.
[00:23:01] But these are utopian texts, right? Utopia is not real life. And so it just doesn’t really work to use that. So, there’s a modern philosopher named Peter Singer, who is probably one of the most famous philosophers and who is hated among the disability community, because he is similarly eugenicist in his thoughts, right.
[00:23:20] This idea that, um, we should just like, sort of erase disability if we could. Um, it would be like taking Peter Singer and using him as evidence for modern sort of American society, right. And saying like, “Oh look, this very famous philosopher thinks that this should happen. Therefore it was happening,” right. [00:23:38] When we know in reality, it’s not happening.
Dr G
And indeed there’s a lot of systems in place in order to facilitate the support of people, uh, who have a disability or an impairment of some kind. And so the idea that somehow to erase that out of existence, um, it’s almost offensive at that point.
Dr Rad
And I think also looking at the [00:24:00] evidence, um, from the Roman world as well as the Greek world. And I think you kind of mentioned this as well, uh, in some of your other responses, uh, some of the disabilities that people suffered from were things that they didn’t necessarily have at birth. So obviously, as you say, life was really tough in the ancient world. And so people developed forms of disability because they didn’t have enough nutrition as children, or because they were forced to perform heavy labour from a very young age.
[00:24:29] People also get injured. People get hurt in battle. People age and, therefore, just develop disabilities. I mean, there, there are certain things that you couldn’t erase, even if you wanted to at birth. You know, lots of these children were probably born healthy and then became disabled or impaired later on.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:24:48] Yeah, definitely. And we have plenty of evidence even for disabled infants. So there are medical texts, there’s one Hippocratic treatise, uh, data to the late fifth or fourth century BCE, it’s called On Joints. [00:25:00] And that author talks about a few things. He talks, for example, about infants who were born with clubfoot and, uh, this is a very common. [00:25:07] Very common. It’s not an uncommon disability or impairment, sort of congenital impairment in the modern period. Um, and he has lengthy treatments that he outlines for how to, and he says, you know, it’s not a problem, right. And he outlines the treatment for clubfoot, how you can sort of correct it. And regardless he says, there are special shoes that people with this can use that provide additional support to that foot.
[00:25:30] He talks about infants who were born with what he calls a weasel arms. Um, so I don’t know if you’ve seen a weasel, they’d have very short arms relative to their body size. And so this is infants who are born with something like a shrunken arm. It could be any number of conditions, right. And he says, it’s no problem.
[00:25:46] He said, he lists the tools that these people can use when they grow older. Um, he says they perform equally well sometimes. Almost as well with their sort of affected arm as they do with their unaffected arm. He [00:26:00] explicitly says, this is no problem whatsoever for people who are born with this congenital deformity.
[00:26:06] Um, we have things like these feeding models from the ancient Greek world. There are these really cute little cups that are sort of small. They’re kind of globular with a handle on one side and then a really narrow spout coming out of it. And there’s a lot of, um, a lot of speculation about what these cups are used for.
[00:26:23] And, in my article, I discuss what I think is convincingly that these cups were used to assist infants who were born with things like cleft palate, other oral facial deformities, um, or were just who were just so sick, um, or weak that they couldn’t suckle, right, at the breast. And so these are active accommodations for infants who required additional care.
Breastfeeding was the norm. [00:26:49] And so I think that these cups provided additional levels of support for infants who needed it, right.
Dr Rad
Yeah. Well, I think it’s, I think it is just so fascinating that [00:27:00] once you start looking, you just, you just find all these pieces of evidence that I had no idea until I started thinking about it, just how much there actually was.
[00:27:10] And, um, I was looking at some evidence for Rome about some four skeletons that were found near the Via Collatina. And the fact that these, uh, you know, three out of the four people in this particular burial site had had the care of a burial, and like not a flash one, and you know, it wasn’t amazing, but some of these people had extraordinary issues to deal with, you know, some spine curvatures.
And one of the skeletons [00:27:36] was a woman who only had one tooth. And she must have had someone helping her or looking after her in some way. And then someone who saw to her burial. Um, and so it’s just, it’s just so fascinating that when you start looking for the evidence, these various pieces come out of the woodwork.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:27:52] Yeah, it’s an interesting phenomenon, uh, even in the modern period. So I think it’s very difficult to find, for example, a novel, any [00:28:00] novel, just pick up something and read it and not find disability in there, right? So a lot of people, if you challenge them, they say, you know, well, disability just doesn’t show up in things.
[00:28:10] If you challenge them to think about their favourite movie or their favourite book, right, it starts to become apparent that there’s disability everywhere. And the same is true in the ancient world. I don’t think that I have come across a single genre of literature where disability does not feature – sometimes quite prominently – in the ancient world.
[00:28:27] There’s even a type of poetry that is disabled in the sense that, um, it’s called choliambic verse, and that’s a “limping” verse. So the word “choliambic” comes from the word χωλός in Greek, which means “lame” or “limping”. So where that’s often applied to Hephaestus, for example. And so it has to do with the type of meter.
[00:28:47] And it was actually referred to in the ancient world as this kind of “limping meter” because of the way that it was so heavy across the page, right. And so you see it everywhere and it’s in the archaeological evidence, it’s in the literary evidence, it’s in the iconographical evidence. It’s everywhere.
[00:29:01] And so, the next question becomes, well, if the evidence is everywhere, why hasn’t other – why haven’t other people – talked about this, right? And I think that that has to do with, just sort of the, the modern makeup of the field. So who are scholars? What is acceptable to study in the ancient world?
This is why, sort of, as a part of sort of an adjunct of my work [00:29:23], um, I tried to get more people with disabilities involved in the study of classics, in the study of archaeology. And part of that is doing things like this podcast, right? Trying to tell people: this is a thing. You’re allowed to study it. You’re allowed to ask questions about it. You’re allowed to look for evidence for it.
[00:29:40] Um, this is a perfectly acceptable field of study because, you’re right, the evidence is everywhere.
Dr G
Yeah, and I think from the reading that I’ve been doing around this subject, in the lead up to this conversation, um, it seems that, like, part of what has been a real boon to this kind of study is the ability for us to use [00:30:00] searchable databases and being able to do keyword searches and [00:30:05] trying to draw out, um, the way in which ancient languages talk about disability and impairment, and then trying to filter that through the systems that we now have for being able to look at evidence. Because one of the things that tends to happen to students when you’re going through the standard model for being taught classics and ancient history is you’re given a text and you have to read it quite closely.
[00:30:29] But actually what we’re looking for is really broad – and maybe really quite slim – mentions of things about everyday life, which, for a lot of people, they’re not reading the right texts or they’re coming into contact with myth and higher literature, but they’re not coming into contact with things that might give them a sense of the every day.
[00:30:48] And, I think that element of the way that we study history is actually changing the nature of the sorts of things that we can get out of it as well.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. But even [00:31:00] that has limitations, right? So when you form a database, I think specifically, for example, if the Beasley Archive – the pottery database that you can find online and sort of search the corpus of Greek vase painting – one of the things that’s really difficult is the search terms that are available are the ones that the creators of the database decided were relevant.
[00:31:19] So, for example, you can’t search for crutches. “Crutch” is not an acceptable search term. And so you have to think of synonyms that other people might have used in order to categorize these objects. And so it makes it really difficult sometimes to use those databases because they’re created by people and it depends on what they thought was relevant in their creation of that database.
Dr Rad
[00:31:43] I actually think that’s quite interesting. Just thinking about the, as you said, the vase painting and the artistic representations, because when I was doing a bit of reading about Greece and Rome, it seems that that might be one of the areas of difference with these two societies. In that, whilst the Romans do certainly have, [00:32:00] obviously, you know, you can look at the bodies from Pompeii and Herculaneum and you know, there are skeletons, and you can also look at textual references to various types of impairments. [00:32:09] Uh, when it comes to artistic representation, the Romans tend to be quite realistic with someone’s face, but then have quite idealized bodies. Whereas, I believe, if you look at the Greek record, there are, I think it’s a bit more common to have artistic representations of disabilities due to the kind that you study with like the lower limbs and that kind of thing.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:32:31] Um, I think it depends. So, um, there’s some really great studies on this. So Lisa Trentin, for example, has a book on hunchbacks and Hellenistic and Roman art. It’s really interesting. There is Véronique Dasen, who has a book on dwarves in Egypt and Greece, but she talks a little bit about what would be sort of more Hellenistic depictions of dwarves.
[00:32:51] And I guess you’re right.. But the Greeks have their own idealizations. So if you look at Greek statues, we have a very, idealized version. And a [00:33:00] lot of vase painting, um, is similarly idealized, but I think you’re right that the vase painting as a specific medium offers opportunities for visualization, that we just don’t see in Rome. [00:33:11] Um, so we do see a lot of depictions of things like that.
One of my favourites is, uh, this little vase by what’s called the Clinic Painter. So I actually had a reproduction of this vase made when I finished my PhD –
Dr Rad
Oh amazing!
Dr Debby Sneed
– Uh, yeah, it was in the ancient Corinth, there was an artist in who does sort of reproductions. [00:33:29] And so I commissioned him to make one. It shows what’s traditionally interpreted as a doctor’s clinic, which is why this artist is called the Clinic Painter, and it has a bunch of men on it. Some of them are being, uh, sort of, you know, given treatments by a doctor who’s seated. But then there’s also this really weird scene of a man, an adult man, he’s bearded, he’s standing, he’s clothed, he’s leaning on his staff and he’s in a sort of romantic pose with another figure [00:33:54] who’s a dwarf, a little person. He was also an adult man, and it’s in a sort of [00:34:00] courtship pose. But we have some issues. I don’t know how to interpret this vase at all. I just like looking at it because it just is so interesting the way that this gets depicted as a sort of courtship scene in this otherwise doctor’s office, right. [00:34:13] It’s just sort of a really weird scene.
Dr Rad
That does sound very interesting and confusing.
Dr G
It sounds like it’s got a lot of potential for interpretation. This might drive your research until you can find a way into what is the interpretation of the scene.
Dr Rad
And well it actually, has actually raised one of my, one of my other questions that came up when I was looking at some research.
[00:34:33] So I know that in some of the Roman depictions that we do have of people with disabilities, it seems as though – although we can obviously never be sure with artistic representation – it seems as though some of the artwork we do have, which shows people with the kinds of impairments that might be intended to shock or even make people laugh.
[00:34:55] And certainly one of the most famous texts about someone with very well-known [00:35:00] disabilities is, of course, Seneca’s work about the emperor. Claudius. And how he’s made fun of when he tries to join the rest of the gods after his death. Can you speak at all to the way that people might be treated cruelly or might be made the butt of jokes [00:35:15] if they have some sort of impairment in the ancient world?
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. And you will definitely see more of that in Rome. So the way that disability in Greece versus Rome is treated is very different. And I don’t think, um, I personally don’t think that it’s useful to discuss them together except comparatively. In Rome you see a lot of what I would call fetishization of disability.
[00:35:36] So it is treated, uh, with shock with awe, uh, I mean that sexually as well. So it was sort of sexual fetishization as well. Um, we have stories about, uh, Uh, what is it called? Like a monster market, right? Where slaves with physical disabilities would bring a higher price. Right, so we have all of this in Rome in a way that I just find, [00:36:00] so, um, I don’t know how to word it. So different than what we see in Greece.
So in Greece, people get made fun of for things all the time, right. But disability doesn’t seem to be a category. So an individual might be made fun of, for aspects of his physical appearance. We can think of all this sympotic poetry where people are, uh, making fun of each other for being ugly or, you know, having sort of non-ideal bodies, et cetera.
[00:36:24] But in Rome, it’s just a completely different beast, where it’s just something that ends up being the focus. And then other things are sort of put on top of that, right. So the sort of physical disability is used in a way to explain other aspects of somebody’s personality or character, which is what I think you have going on in things like Seneca. That the disability is used almost metaphorically to refer to other aspects. This is why Claudius so difficult is because it’s hard to separate what is the real – whatever is actually real – um, with the sort of metaphoric uses of disability in Roman literature.
Dr Rad
[00:36:59] Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. There is an element, uh, that seems to be coming through, um, philosophical works like from the Stoics where you wouldn’t necessarily make fun of someone just because they have an impairment. But if that impairment is the result of “bad choices” and a “disreputable lifestyle”, then it’s open season.
[00:37:20] And Claudius, of course, with his wives and freedmen and his love of drink and food and all that kind of stuff. It’s his lifestyle, which they seem to be having a problem with. And so he’s kind of fair game.
Dr G
But it’s certainly the case that in ancient Rome, they sort of see an intimate connection between the physicality of the person and the character of the person.
Dr Rad
[00:37:40] Definitely.
Dr G
And that, and it sounds to me, Debby, that what you’re saying is that this union is less the case when we’re looking at ancient Greek evidence.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, of course it’s not absent entirely, but it is very different the way that disability is treated. We see a lot of different ways. So, you know, it’s not irrelevant that one of the twelve Olympian [00:38:00] gods, Hephaestus, is disabled in ancient Greece, so that when he gets to Rome, when he’s Vulcan, his disability is almost entirely erased.
[00:38:07] You know, I think Greece has just a very different situation. They’re treating things differently. Their culture is different, right. This is that sort of contingency of disability. And this is, this is why – so a lot of people will think about disability in the past, and they just sort of lump everything in the pre-modern period together. [00:38:22] That life was hard, therefore, it must’ve been harder for people with disabilities. There’s this kind of – we think that people with disabilities don’t have any inherent value. And that they’re only given value in a modern society, where we’re rich enough to afford, and we’ve got these high moral values that will grant, you know, rights to people with disabilities.
[00:38:42] So we just assume that if you were to rewind the clock, that that wouldn’t be the case in the past, but in fact, it’s not necessarily, not the case. It’s not necessarily the case. It’s just a different situation and deserves its own treatment. And so some of our earliest studies of disability in the ancient period in the ancient [00:39:00] Mediterranean sort of looked at sort of the Greco-Roman understanding of disability.
[00:39:04] But I think that if you were to distinguish them, I think it would be an excellent case study for how exactly the Greeks Romans are different. It would be a great way of explaining the differences in the cultures so that people stopped just eliding them into the same thing.
Dr Rad
That’s true. I mean, I actually hadn’t, again, I’d never really stopped to think about this before, but the Roman naming system where they got, you know, the, the three barrel name, at least, sometimes more.
[00:39:28] I never stopped to think about the fact, even though we often talk about the meaning of some of those names, um, how many of them actually refer to some sort of physical defect. Apparently 44% of Roman cognominia refer to physical defects of some kind, which is just amazing. And it’s built right into, you know, their naming system.
[00:39:49] It just blew my mind when I saw exactly how high that was.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah. It’s really just such an interesting part of the Roman conception of disability, how it’s just sort of there [00:40:00] and ever present and can be used in this way. It’s one of the reasons that I actually really struggle to talk about disability in Rome is because I feel like [00:40:09], uh, it just requires such an intimate knowledge of Roman society. One that I just don’t have coming from the Greek, like studying the Greek world. That even though I know a lot about disability and how to study disability, um, just looking at statistics like that, looking at the stories that we have, looking at figures like Claudius, it just makes it so difficult to understand, unless you can situate it appropriately in the context of Roman history.
[00:40:34] I don’t think that the same person can do both, if that makes sense.
Dr Rad
No, I completely hear you in terms of the level of expertise that must be required. So let’s bring it back to ancient Greece as we move towards the end. Just before we finish up, I’d love to hear about some of the particular bodies or cases that you have looked at in your career.
[00:40:53] Can you tell us about some of the most interesting cases that you’ve come across?
Dr Debby Sneed
Definitely. The one that I love. You know, I [00:41:00] don’t have answers for a lot of these figures that I’d bring up. I’m still struggling with exactly how to situate them. But one of my favourites is the speaker. We don’t have his name, but he’s a speaker and a law court speech by the orator Lysius. Lysius is a very well-known logographer, I guess, from the fourth century BCE, he wrote speeches for people.
[00:41:20] He was a metic, so he was a sort of a resident of Athens, but not a citizen. And, so he wrote speeches for other people. And in one of them, it is for a man who has been accused of welfare fraud, essentially. So Athens had a pension system for people with disabilities. And what’s interesting about this pension system is that it wasn’t just for people with disabilities.
[00:41:44] It was for people who were so disabled that they couldn’t work, which does a couple of things. First of all, it presumes that there are people with disabilities who could work, right? Who could. Perform and, you know, perform within the sort of labour market bringing enough money.
[00:42:00] And so we have this guy who has been accused of receiving it fraudulently. And so this speech is his defense and what’s interesting is that he’s disabled. He talks about how he walks with two crutches. And so the argument isn’t that he’s not disabled, it’s that he’s lying about his financial need. And so, you just get this really great characterization of somebody, sort of in his own words, quote unquote, it was written by Lysias, right.
[00:42:26] So it’s kind of hard to say whose words we have here. And there are a lot of open questions about this speech. But you get this great characterization of somebody who is disabled and we get a great understanding of what disability might have meant. He talks about how, you know, yes, he owns a shop.
[00:42:43] So he doesn’t tell us what kind of business this shop is, which is one of the big questions, right? It seems a little shady that he’s not telling us what his business is. But he says, you know, but it’s not enough money to bring anyone in. He says, I don’t have a slave to help me with my work. I don’t have children who can care for me in my old age.
[00:42:59] And I’m just getting older. So my disabilities are compounding. And he talks about all of this. He talks about how, you know, he has to borrow other people’s horses to get around. So when his distances are too great for his crutches to take him there, you know, he has to take a sort of equine transport in order to do it.
[00:43:16] Um, so it’s just this really great speech. And I think that it is Lysias 24, if anyone wants to read it. It’s such a great way to start thinking about this topic of disability in ancient Greece, because this is probably the closest that we get hearing the words of somebody who identifies as disabled.
Dr G
[00:43:34] Mmm, I think this is a fascinating piece of evidence actually. And the fact that we can glean from this, that there is, uh, a system set up of support, uh, for people who fall within a particular category of disability as well, I think is fascinating. And speaks to something really particular about the structure of ancient Greek society that, perhaps a lot of people coming to the ancient world [00:44:00] and haven’t considered at all.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, and I mean, this is specifically Athens, right. We can’t say what anyone else would have thought about this exactly. And we have it in other evidence. So we know that at least this man was eligible for it. Uh, he has some sort of mobility impairment.
[00:44:14] We have another speech, um, by, I forget who right now, but we have another speech where somebody is blind. And receives the payments, right? So he’s an older man who is blind and the payment is also listed in The Athenian Constitution that sort of pseudo-Aristotelian text, uh, sometimes referred to as the AthPol, it’s a abbreviation, a reference to this pension.
[00:44:38] So it’s pretty secure, right, that this is a real thing, uh, that at least in the fourth century, there was this pension system. Not charity exactly. I mean, there’s some really great work by Matthew Dillon on this, I think, where he talks about how, you know, it’s not specifically, uh, it’s not charity, right. It’s an attempt to avoid patronage in Athens, [00:45:00] right. To prevent people with disabilities who couldn’t work from relying on the financial support of an individual and therefore developing a sort of allegiance to that individual instead feeling allied to the state.
Dr Rad
Absolutely. So we’re getting towards the end of our time. [00:45:15] But before we finish up, I thought I would like to give you a chance to talk a little bit about some of the difficulties of this area of study. Obviously, I’m sure you face the usual problems, so, you know, not having enough source material, you know, you obviously love to have more always from the ancient world. But I imagine that looking at this particular area, there’s also issues with, um, you know, sensitive language and that sort of thing as well.
[00:45:40] So would you care to speak to some of the difficulties that you’ve encountered in this particular area?
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely. So, uh, in terms of source material, I actually think that there’s a lot. Especially relative to some of the other, uh, topics that you can study in the ancient world. I think that there’s a lot of evidence for disability. I, in fact, I find it almost too much to grapple with, and I hope that [00:46:00], sort of, future directions of this study, um, I sort of try to grapple with all of it together and try to reconcile the different pictures that we get from different kinds of evidence. Um, but what I would like is, what I prefer is, if people who are specialized in these different areas, in ancient warfare, in ancient children and childhood, et cetera, actually looked at disability in a theoretically engaged way, so that we have specialists [00:46:24] on these different topics, actually looking at the topic in a sensitive way.
The use of language is a difficult one. Um, you know, even if you just look at my dissertation, two recent articles to the way I discuss now, right. My terminology has changed. And part of that is, as I learned more, but part of it is also just that language is constantly developing.
[00:46:45] So “able-bodied” was a term that I think was preferred, you know, even a few years ago, but now the term for somebody who is not disabled, the preferred term is “non-disabled”, right. And so, you know, you do want to be sensitive? Uh, you’ll find plenty of evidence in the [00:47:00] scholarship of people not being sensitive to terminology.
[00:47:03] So it can actually be very difficult to read some of the work on disability in the ancient Greek world. Um, because you could read a lot of, sort of ableist bias into the way that people discuss it. Um, but one of the most difficult things that I find about this subject has nothing to do with the ancient world, but actually all to do with the modern world.
[00:47:20] I get a lot of pushback on this topic. A lot of skepticism. And what’s interesting about it is that the skepticism that I receive is not based in evidence, it’s based on people’s impressions. They just don’t believe that people with disabilities in ancient Greece could have been treated with anything except disgust or disdain or pity.
[00:47:41] And so it’s really difficult to convince people even based directly in the evidence that that is not the case. So when people bring up Sparta, for example, and about how, you know, Spartans had no place in their society for somebody who is disabled. And I say, well, we have this fourth century BCE [00:48:00] King Agesilaus, the Second, who is disabled.
[00:48:03] And they just excuse that example. I’m like, okay, well, I mean, there’s a Spartan who was disabled, so, okay. And so the more that you bring up examples, they all get explained away as opposed to, uh, just sort of reconciling them and accepting that this is a feature and then questioning from there, what that means.
[00:48:23] So a good example is the ramps. You know, there are eleven at this healing sanctuary, whether it’s a regional phenomenon is irrelevant. You still have to explain why there are eleven ramps at this one sanctuary when other ones have no ramps or just one ramp.
So you have to explain these things, but I find it really difficult to [00:48:44], sort of, get over people’s initial inclination to reject the idea.
Dr Rad
Yeah, no, look, I must admit doing reading for this, I’m very grateful to have had you on the show. Not just because you’ve been wonderful to talk to, but it encouraged me to do reading that I wouldn’t have [00:49:00] otherwise done. And a lot of the time I was looking at material that I’ve encountered before, like looking at the remains from Pompeii and Herculaneum, thinking about people like Claudius, thinking about, you know, philosophers like Seneca, looking at people like, you know, Philip of Macedon, and even the Twelve Tables.
[00:49:17] We’ve actually just done an episode on the Twelve Tables, where we had mentioned the fact that they built into that law code in Rome, the fact that if people couldn’t physically get to the court, there had to be provision for them to be carried there. And I’d never stopped to think about it. And I’ve never really stopped to think about just how much evidence there really was in this world for people who had a variety of conditions [00:49:41], which would have made life different for them in some way.
So I am so grateful to have had you on the show to discuss this topic.
Dr G
And I think it’s very revealing as well in terms of – just to jump in with a little piece of evidence that I quite like that I’ve encountered through this. Because one of the areas that I’m very interested in is the [00:50:00] rise of Augustus.
[00:50:00] And he institutes this law of the three children and we get a whole commentary from Ulpian on this, about what constitutes “the three children”. And it seems that at law, the decision is made that – even if the child is considered “monstrous”, and so we’re not sure to what extent that means in terms of disability, but it seems like there’s some sort of birth deformity at play [00:50:25] – that the mother is not to be held responsible for this and the child still counts towards the three in the eyes of the law. And that’s just a little aspect of a much bigger part of history that is part of my studies that I am now thinking about because of these kinds of discussions that are happening.
[00:50:44] So I think the work that you’re doing, Debby, is really important and significant for the way we approach evidence in the ancient world, across the board.
Dr Rad
And of course, Dr. G, is a Vestal fanatic. And of course, to be a Vestal at this time –
Dr G
Oh yes!
Dr Rad
as well, you [00:51:00] also have to have –
Dr G
You have to have no speech impediment to be a Vestal Virgin.
[00:51:04] That is one of the core tenants. Um, young women would not get chosen for the role if they had a speech impediment.
Dr Debby Sneed
Yeah, definitely, right. So religious ritual is all about repeating things in the exact appropriate way. Uh, so this is something that, um, it’s not really surprising, I guess, about the Vestal Virgins and the Ulpian thing is really interesting.
[00:51:22] One of the things that is great, and that makes it difficult to study this, especially – I’m a non-disabled person, uh, which is a really important thing to bring up and I should have brought it up sooner, um, because I’m studying this as a non-disabled person.
Um, and I would like it if I was not the one, right [00:51:41], who was sort of doing this work. You know, I hope that we can get more people with disabilities involved in research, doing this research, asking these questions because, um, you know, we’ve known about the ramps. So back to the ramps. We’ve known about these forever, right?
However long we could have known that there were ramps. We’ve known [00:52:00] that there were ramps at some of these sanctuaries. But I think that non-disabled people, so, which includes many archaeologists, right, we sort of take for granted aspects of mobility. We don’t ask how people get into buildings because we never consciously think about it. We just walk into them.
[00:52:16] Whatever’s there we use. If there are stairs, we use stairs. If there is a ramp, we use a ramp. If the stairs are really tall, we just use them, right. So we just don’t really think about it. And I think that if we had had more people with disabilities involved in some of these studies, I think that the question would have been asked a lot sooner.
[00:52:34] And, um, just because, you know, it’s just something that people with mobility impairments are consciously aware of. And so even if disability is not the answer, it’s worth asking the question and it’s just something that we don’t get, right. When you have only one type of person asking questions.
And this is one of – there’s this really great interpretation of Oedipus.
[00:52:56] So Oedpius, the King of Thebes. So, you know, very [00:53:00] famously killed his father and married his mother. And he also solves the riddle of the Sphinx. And the riddle of the Sphinx is, you know, “what walks on four legs in the morning, two legs at midday and three legs in the evening?” And it’s of course humans.
[00:53:15] So, you know, crawling as an infant, walking on two legs and then when you’re an adult, and then using three legs, so two legs, plus a crutch or a cane, in old age. And there’s one really interesting suggestion by David Mitchell and Sharon Snyder, who are both disability studies scholars, that Oedipus is able to answer this question because he has a mobility impairment, because when his parents sort of exposed him at birth in order to avoid his fulfillment of this prophecy, that they actually intentionally mutilated him.
[00:53:46] So they had his heels, sort of, clipped or something like that. And that, because he has this mobility impairment, when he reaches the riddle of the Sphinx, this riddle that nobody before had ever been able to answer, right. That he was uniquely [00:54:00] situated to answer that question because he was uniquely positioned to think about mobility constantly.
[00:54:06] And so, I think that this is a really important thing, is, based on, not just my non-disabled status, but based on all other aspects of my identity, I individually have limited in the kinds of things that I can come up with. The questions that I can ask the interpretations that I can come up with.
And so, one of the challenges that I have is that there just aren’t people asking these questions. And so, uh, we just need a lot more people asking them and thinking about them and offering solutions, not just disabled people, right. So they don’t have, it’s not like these are their ancestors or something like that, but they just have this other perspective that just hasn’t really been sort of appreciated in an academic context.
Dr Rad
[00:54:35] No, I think you’re absolutely right. As I say, my experience is extremely limited. And as I say, I consider myself to be an extremely fortunate human being, but certainly the way that I interact with the world and things that I’m aware of, that other people aren’t aware of, because I’ve become extremely hard of hearing.
It’s really changed particularly over the last ten years. Yet, you know, just things like going out to restaurants and also I’m a teacher. [00:55:00] The kinds of rooms that I can teach in effectively. I become much more aware of sound qualities and various things like that than other people are just because I struggled so much more to understand people, even with hearing aids.
[00:55:13] Um, and it does, it does allow me to say a little bit of what you’re talking about, in that, unless you’ve got that lived experience, you sometimes won’t think of certain angles of investigations.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:55:25] And this is true of other things as well. I don’t know if this is true, but I read something about, sort of this, uh, neolithic or paleolithic find that somebody found a bone and it had notches on it.
[00:55:38] So something like twenty-eight notches on it. And there were all of these interpretations about what these notches meant: why twenty-eight, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a bunch of men asking the question. And that none of them had considered, of course, menstrual cycles, right, and whether that could be a relevant interpretation, because why would they think of menstruation being twenty-eight days?
[00:56:00] And so it’s just demonstrates like the importance of being like, well, here’s a suggestion, right? From somebody who has a lived experience of something it’s not going to mean, it’s not that a man could never have come up with that. It’s just, it’s not going to be at the forefront of their mind.
[00:56:18] And it’s going to take a lot more work for them to consciously think about something. Whereas for a woman, you might more naturally think of this interpretation.
Dr G
On that note, I’m wondering if there are any scholars that you’re aware of who are working in this field, who are bringing their disability to their study of the ancient world, [00:56:39] we might also consider and consult. And when we’re thinking about this topic in the future.
Dr Debby Sneed
[00:56:44] I don’t personally, so. There are some, right. A lot of graduate students. For example, I have a [00:56:50] colleague Mason Schrader, who’s currently a graduate student at Texas Tech, who is disabled and he’s working in classical archaeology.
[00:56:56] Um, and I have an article co-authored with him that will be coming out hopefully next year about disability and archaeology and how to make our field schools more accessible. And there’s this really great group called Crip Antiquity. You can look them up on Twitter, but also they have a website, and it is a collective of people with disabilities and also allies of people with disabilities working in classical antiquity.
[00:57:20] And so if you’re specifically looking for somebody, that’s what I would recommend that you start is with the group Crip Antiquity. To look at the work that they’re doing, the advocacy that they’re doing, and suggestions that they have specifically for this. But, you know, there are some great books. Um, I just, I don’t know, for example, so you’re looking for a book length study on this Martha L Roses, The Staff of Oedipus: Transforming Disability in ancient Greece is where I would start.
[00:57:44] You know, I have my dissertation, but if you’re looking for an actual book, The Staff of Oedipus is where I would start. I think it’s a very sensitive, it’s a theoretically engaged study of the subject. She looks at a very limited range of disabilities. She looks at, uh, stuttering, deafness [00:58:00], muteness, and blindness, I think is what she limits her study to, you know. But I think it’s a really fantastic place to start. [00:58:08] Her bibliography is really solid. Um, but then there are a lot of article length treatments of this subject as well. Of course my article on ramps, my article soon coming out this year on disability and infanticide. And hopefully, uh, whenever I finish my book, I will recommend that one.
Dr Rad
Oh, we’ll have to have you back on once you have finished your book. [00:58:27] Because I mean, as I say, you’ve just opened my mind to all these things, which I’ve seen before. I mean, Everything from Tutankhamun to the stories of Jesus healing, people in the Bible. I’m just like, “Oh my god, I can’t believe I’ve never thought about this before!” So you’ve definitely opened up our mind to, to looking at the sources in a completely different way.
[00:58:42] Um, if people do want to access your work, what’s the best way to follow you and what you’re, what you’re up to?
Dr Debby Sneed
Probably on Twitter. Yeah, so I have a Twitter. I, you know, I don’t know if I’ll have it forever, but right now that’s a great place to find me. I’m @debscavator D E B S C A V A T O R.
A great way to follow me is on Twitter. [00:59:02] I post about the work that I’m doing, but anyone who’s looking to study this topic in addition to Crip Antiquity, there’s also Christian Laes. I think that’s how you say his last name. He actually maintains a bibliography on disability history in the ancient world, which is limited, uh, which has sort of 3000 BCE to 700 CE and the ancient world confined mostly to the Mediterranean, but broadly [00:59:27] defined within the ancient Mediterranean. So looking at disability in the Bible, disability and Judaic and Islamic, early Islamic context, right; in ancient Greece and ancient Rome. And I think at present, it is seventy-one pages long of articles and books, uh, just, and you can find that online, if you just Google the website is Disability History and the Ancient World.
[00:59:52] Um, and you’ll find this entire bibliography that he updates on a regular basis is constantly taking suggestions for it. Um, so anybody looking to study this, this is a great place to start. Even if the bibliography is kind of difficultly organized.
Dr G
Oh, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming and chatting with us. [01:00:12] We really appreciate it.
Dr Debby Sneed
[01:00:14] No this has been really great. You know, I’m always happy to talk about this work. So thank you for having me and giving me the opportunity to sort of spread the idea of disability and lead ancient world questions that people can be asking and hopefully to encourage people to consider these in their own studies, to return to familiar things that they’ve read from the ancient world or vases that they’ve seen or [01:00:31] Sites that they’ve visited and consider what they might have overlooked.
Dr Rad
[01:00:54] Thank you for listening to this special episode of The Partial Historians. And of course, if you’re one of our patrons and you’ve got to listen to it a little bit before everyone else. If you’re keen to also get early access to all of our bonus content, then please subscribe and become a Patreon. We really value your support. It helps keep the show going.
Philip II of Macedon had his right eye surgically removed after sustaining an injury. This artwork imagines what he may have looked like after the injury. Image courtesy of panaiotis.deviantart.com
Our Sources
Below are materials recommended by Dr Sneed during the episode or sources that we consulted in preparation for the interview.
Dasen, V. Dwarfs in Ancient Egypt and Greece. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2013.
Dillon, M. ‘Legal (and Customary?) Approaches to the Disabled in Ancient Greece.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 167-181. New York: Routledge, 2017.
Fischer, J. ‘Behinderung und Gesellschaft im klassischen Athen. Bemerkungen zur 24. Rede des Lysias.’ In ed. Rupert Breitwieser, Behinderungen und Beeintraechtigungen/Disability and Impairment in Antiquity. British Archaeological Reports, 2012.
Gaveart, B. ‘Perfect Roman bodies.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 213-221. New York: Routledge, 2017.
Laes, C. Disabilities and the disabled in the Roman world: a social and cultural history. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2018.
Mitchell, D. T.; Snyder, S. L. Narrative Prosthesis: Disability and the Dependencies of Discourse. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2000
Pudsey, A. ‘Disability and infirmitas in the ancient world.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 22-34. New York: Routledge, 2017.
Rose, M. L. The Staff of Oedipus: Transforming Disability in Ancient Greece. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2003
Sneed, D. ‘The architecture of access: ramps at ancient Greek healing sanctuaries.’ Antiquity 94, 376 (2020), 1015-1029.
Trentin, L. The hunchback in Hellenistic and Roman art. New York: Bloomsbury Academic, 2015
Trentin, L. ‘The ‘other’ Romans.’ In Disability in Antiquity, ed. Christian Laes, 233-247. New York: Routledge, 2017.
If you are interested in exploring this topic in greater depth, you may want to consult this bibliography on disability in antiquity that is primarily curated by Christian Laes
It’s our second episode in The Partial Recap series. This is a short, sharp, scripted overview of all the big events that defined the 450s BCE. If you’re inspired to delve into more details, all the episodes from this decade can be found in our Foundation of Rome series.
Let’s jump into the refresher! It’s the Partial Recap of the 450s BCE!
The Partial Recap – the 450s BCE
A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum. Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.
Transcript
Introduction
FR – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 450s BC!
PG – I’m Dr G
FR – and I’m Dr Rad
PG – and this is our highlights edition of the 450s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 459 to 450 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
FR – Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee
PG – Get ready for a recappuccino.
459 BCE
In 459 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Cornelius Maluginensus Uritnus and Quinctus Fabius Vibulanus, an old-hand in his third consulship.
Rome is picking up the pieces after the recent invasion. A census is carried out. Rome has 117 319 citizens. Lustral sacrifices are needed to cleanse the city.
Livy and Dionysius don’t really agree on the exact course of events. Perhaps Rome is trying to restore its rep after the military humiliation of the previous year?
What seems clear from both accounts is that the Volscians and Aequians are up to something and the Romans set off to deal with it.
They are particularly keen to help out the Tusculans who are under attack from the Aequains – or is this just a method for the Romans to restore their reputation after the invasion.
Under Fabius, the Romans defeat the Aequians decisively.
The consuls meet up and target the lands of both the Volscians and the Aequians.
Antium, in Volscian territory, is a particular hotspot. It seems like there is a revolt going on in this territory, only recently captured by the Romans. After a messy battle, Antium is retaken and some locals and colonists are publicly scourged and beheaded. Now there’s an example no one will want to follow.
Back at home, there is agitation for the law about the laws, but the Prefect of the City, Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus, says that nothing can take place when consuls are away.
The quaestors, Aulus Cornelius & Quintus Servilius, try to pursue Volscius for the charge of committing perjury about Caeso Quinctius being responsible for his brother’s murder – and it seems like they have a genuine case. The tribunes hold them off – after all, the consuls are away, right?
Once the consuls return, it’s triumph time! Almost as though the invasion of 460 never happened…
458 BCE
In 458 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Minucius Esquilinus Augurinus and Caius Nautius was consul for the second time.
Rome is facing war on many fronts, so both of the consuls are need out in the field.
Ex-consul, Quinctius Fabius Vibulanus, is made Prefect of the City – probably to keep an eye on the tribunes as well as the enemies of Rome.
The exact order of events is different in Livy and Dionysius, but external wars constitute the main events of the year.
The Aequians are back in action in spite of making peace the year before. The Aequians feel that they are not violating the deal as they are attacking the Latins – Rome’s allies, not Rome itself.
The Romans send an embassy to talk to the Aequian’s leader, Cloelius Gracchus, Quinctius Fabius Vibulanus, Publius Volumnius Amintinus Gallus and Aulus Postumius Albus Regillensis
Cloelius tells the distinguished ROmans to talk to the tree, because he ain’t listening
And it’s on like Donkey Kong
Minucius does not take a bold approach against the Aequian forces, which gives them confidence. Nautius has to be sent for as back-up.
The tribunes pull their classic move of trying to prevent the levy of forces, and they almost won, but the Sabines then attack ROman territory, terrifying everyone.
Nautius enjoys success against the Sabines, before being summoned by Minucius.
However, they are going to need more help. What they need is a silver fox with enough virtus to choke an elephant. They need a dictator and they need Cincinnatus, father of the exiled Caeso.
At least, the patricians do – they plebs aren’t thrilled at first.
Cincinnatus whips the citizens into action and devises a strategy that wins the day against the Aequians. Cincinnatus demands the city of Corbio and Gracchus is brought to him in chains – YOU talk to the tree, smart-ass!
Cincinnatus is now free to rescue the Tusculans.
Minunius steps down from the consulship but remains in Cincinnatus’ service – he’s just so amazing! The army is in the best shape ever and all because of him. He is awarded an elaborate gift and a triumph.
Because he is Cincinnatus, he is prepared to give up his power now that the external threat has passed…. But only after he finishes the case against his son’s accuser, the tribune Volscius.
Between Cincinnatus and the Quaestors Marcus Valerius Volusi Maximus and Titus Quintius Capitolinus Barbatus, Volscius is found guilty and exiled.
Cincinnatus can now return to his life as a private citizen on his farm.
457 BCE
In 457 BCE, the consuls were Quintus Minucius Esquilinus and Marcus Horatius Pulvilius in his second consulship.
In this year, the Sabines become a problem once more, attacking ROman territory.
The tribunes are undeterred, demanding the codification of the laws. Give us the law!
The consuls want to ignore this issue and conduct the levy.
Cincinnatus shames people into enlisting by making appeals to ROman masculinity and pride – if no one fights, the ROmans will lose their empire! The patricians will fight – but will the plebs?
An assembly is called, and the consul Horatius openly admits that the patricians will not give up their privileges. He brings out the old patricians to shame the plebeians and again questions their masculinity.
The tribune Verginius counters as he can see the crowd is being affected by these theatrics. No one is betraying anyone here – they just want some concessions.
Horatius will entertain any reasonable requests, so the tribunes ask for their number to be doubled.
Cincinnatus and Claudius are in favour of making this deal – more tribunes means a greater possibility for them to be divided into factions.
The tribune election takes place immediately – the plebs know they need to get the money up front now!
The levy can now proceed and Minucius is sent to deal with the Sabines, who retreat and allow their lands to be pillaged.
Horatius defeats the Aequians and razes Corbio to the ground.
456 BCE
In 456 BCE, the consuls were Marcus Valerius Volusi Maxumus Lactuca and Spurius Verginius Tricosus Caeliomontanus.
The tribunes for the year were Lucius Icilius and Lucius Alienus.
Icilius is keen to meet with consuls, but they are ghosting him. When he tries to force the issue, Icilius’ attendants are driven away by the consuls’ lictors.
In retaliation, the tribunes seize one of the lictors and decide to throw him off the Tarpeain Rock.
The consuls are distressed, but helpless to fight off the tribunes. Luckily for them, the tribunes decide to release the hapless lictor.
Icilius instead pursues a law about the use of public land. This law would mean that land that has been taken by force or fraud would be given over to the populace, the occupiers reimbursed and the rest to be divided up amongst the public
The Senate agreed, except for Gaius Claudius, and this law was unusually named after Icilius.
455 BCE
In 455 BCE, the consuls were Titus Romilius Rocus Vaticanus and Gaius Veturius Cicurinus.
Once again, two of the tribunes were Lucius Icilius and Lucius Alienus.
This is a tricky year, as the accounts of Livy and Dionysius diverged.
In Livy, the tribunes were all feeling very ashamed as they felt they had not accomplished much – especially with ten of them working for the people. They are pushing hard to get the law about the laws through.
Unfortunately for them, the Aequians were on the loose and attacking the Tusculans. No Roman can resist an adorable Tusculan in distress!
The consuls were despatched and killed 7000 Aequians in battle. The remainder of the Aequians fled, leaving lots of booty behind for the Romans. The consuls decided to sell the spoils as the treasury needed to be replenished.
The army is furious and the tribunes see their opportunity to impeach the consuls once they are out of office.
In Dionysius, the consuls decide on war as they need to distract people from the law about the laws. Some of the people are reluctant to enlist, so the consuls start arresting the culprits.
The tribunes denounce the consuls, especially as they are arresting people who are appealing to their protection. The tribunes claim that they are able to release people from the levy, and when that didn’t work, they try to physically stop the levy.
A fight breaks out between the young patricians and the tribunes and their supporters. The patricians win the day, but the tribunes put out the call for more plebeians to join them, and soon the patricians were outnumbered.
The tribunes demand that the consuls join their assembly and they don’t show up, the tribunes head to the senate. They confront the consuls about their behaviour, but the consuls think the tribunes are the problem. The Senate reaches no decision about how to act.
The tribunes call a meeting and propose that the plebs secede, but not everyone is ready for this dramatic a step. It doesn’t help that some of the tribunes have been won over the senate!
After much discussion, the tribunes decide to fine the consuls.
They call an assembly and tell the people that they are going to fight for land allotment and equality before the law. It’s time to get more than just part of the Aventine Hill. The tribunes call on plebs in the audience to come forward and speak about their experiences.
The crowd goes wild, but they haven’t seen anything yet. Lucius Siccius Dentatus steps up the rostra. He is an eloquent solider with extensive military experience and too many honours to name. Who deserves land more Siccius? How can someone who has given so much have so little?
Everyone goes nuts for Siccius, but Icilius says they need to hear from others.
The consuls are desperate to block the tribune’s plans, so they make sure that they stake out the forum early. When people arrive to speak, they make their approval or disapproval known.
The tension rises between the tribunes and consuls.
When it is time for the vote to take place regarding the law, the patricians disrupt the process and push people off the bridge they need to cross to cast their vote. Needless to say the law does not get passed, largely thanks to the work of three patrician families – the Postumii, the Cloelii and the Sempronii.
The tribunes will not take this offence lying down. They decide to go after the patrician families responsible – after all, this is an offence against the gods.
The patrician estates are confiscated and dedicated to Ceres – except that their friends buy their estates back for them. At least the tribunes made some money out of the deal!
It is at this point that the Tusculans arrive with news of an Aequian attack, and both consuls are sent to the rescue – very unusual, but that is how special the Tusculans are.
Although the tribunes object to the levy, the consuls have a secret weapon – an appeal to the gods. They declare that those who sign up for the campaign will please the gods – and you know what will happen to those who don’t. Most people are too scared to refuse.
Siccius, always one to do his duty, arrives with his own legion of veterans.
When the Romans engage with the Aequains in battle. Limited progress is made because both armies are so evenly matched.
Romilius devises a plan for Siccius and his men to try and attack the Aequians from behind whilst the attacks from the front. Siccius knows that this is a suicide mission, but Romilius refuses to back down.
No one gets rid of Siccius that easily. He comes up with a cunning plan to find a different path to reach the Aequians. His men capture a local farmer and he informs them that there is just such a path.
The Aequains are defeated and Siccius’ men love him more than ever for saving their lives whilst securing a victory.
Now it’s time for revenge on Romilius. Siccius and his men destroy all the spoils in the Aequian camp before marching directly to Rome and telling everyone that the consuls forced him to do this.
The consuls are in serious trouble – no triumphs for you!
454 BCE
In 454 BCE, the consuls were Spurius Tarpeius Montanus and Aulus Terminius or Aternius Varus Fontinalis.
Once more, there was quite a lot of difference between Livy and Dionysius.
Dionysius is still following the career of the Roman Achilles – Siccius.
Lucius Siccius Dentatus, now a tribune, pursued a trial against Romilius for injuring the state.
Siccius brought out numerous witnesses about Romilius’ callous attitude to himself and his men. The tears shed by the audience don’t bode well for Romilius.
Romilius remained a haughty patrician to the last, claiming that he did what he had to do as commander. Every tribe voted to condemn him and Romilius was fined 10 000 asses.
Meanwhile, former tribune and now Aedile of the plebs, Lucius Alienus, prosecuted the other former consul, Veturius, and he was fined 15 000 asses.
With this unpleasantness out of the way, once again the law about the laws comes up for discussion.
Romilius surprisingly was in support of the codification. Although he was a staunch patrician and had always despised the plebs, his recent trial taught him a valuable lesson. The patricians were not powerful enough to protect him and all those other persecuted patricians (cough cough) like Caeso, so something needed to change.
Romilius suggested seeking advice from other states that are running smoothly – like somewhere in Greece! This connection to Greece has been seen as an attempt to associate Rome with the fame of Athens and the law code of Solon. After all, if the Romans wanted to learn about Greek laws, they could have have just headed south.
The consuls supported Romilius’ proposal and Siccius praised him for placing the public good first. In tribute to Romilius, Siccius suggested cancelling the fine.
All of this information about the fines issued to the ex-consuls seems to be related to the Lex Aternia Tarpeia, which set a maximum penalty on the fines that could be applied for offences involving illegal attempts to gain authority and disrespect.
In Livy, the trip to Athens comes up after the tribunes pursue the law about the laws with the new consuls. The tribunes assure the consuls that they are prepared to be reasonable.
They suggest that patricians and plebeians should just get together and chat about their priorities and how to devise a law code. They agree, but only if the chat is patricians only – no plebs allowed!
The tribunes just want some progress, so they agree. It is after this that the educational foray to Greece is planned.
453 BCE
In 453 BCE, the consuls were Publius Curiatus Fistus Trigeminius and Sextus Quinctilius
The suffect consul Spurius Furius Medullinus Fusus
This was one of the lowest points of the decade. A terrible pestilence broke out and caused a huge amount of suffering and death in all social classes and even the animals.
We cannot be sure of the numbers, but it seems that half of the citizen population were wiped out and most of the slaves.
One of the consuls was struck down, and tragically, so was his replacement – Spurius Furius.
So many people were affected that the fields were neglected and famine ensued, adding to the misery of the Romans.
The Aequians considered taking advantage of Rome’s weakness, but they became infected by the pestilence when they tried to attack and had to retreat.
452 BCE
In 452 BCE, the consuls were Menenius Agrippa (his praenomen could have been Gaius, Lucius, or Titus) and Publius Sestius
The pestilence has passed, but there are still food shortages in Rome and the consuls need to buy corn to address the grain crisis.
The delegation that had been sent to Athens to study the laws of Solon return, full of ideas for the Roman law code.
The Romans are getting serious about the codification of their laws and start to discuss the best way to proceed.
The idea for a decemvirate, a group of ten magistrates, is suggested. These men would take the place of all the normal offices and there would be no right of appeal. This could not take place immediately, as there were already consuls in office who needed to serve their full term.
Whilst having a mixture of plebeian and patrician magistrates is discussed, the patricians are quick to squash those dreams – it will be patricians only or nothing.
This sends up some red flags for the plebeians, who are only willing to agree to this system if they are assured that the tribunes and land allocation on the Aventine will be protected and restored once the decemvirate is over.
A slight hitch is that there are already some consul-designates who have been chosen to serve in 451 – Titus Genucius and Appius Claudius.
Appius addresses the senate about the importance of the law code and volunteers to give up his chance to be consul so that the decemvirate can go ahead. What a guy! No wonder he is chosen to serve as decemvir.
451 BCE
The first decemvirate begins, and it is a big success.
The decemvirs get along remarkably well and they aren’t flaunting their power or status.
They produce the Ten Tables, which are approved after consultation with the populace.
Confusingly, the laws do not seem to address many issues that have been concerning the plebeians, but they do provide some insight into life in Rome at this time.
Whilst everyone is satisfied, there is general agreement that a few more laws are needed and it is decided that the Romans need a second decemvirate.
Elections are set, and Appius Claudius campaigns hard. He is determined to hang on to his position, so he starts getting friendly with the plebs and tribunes – even badmouthing the patricians.
His colleagues are suspicious of his behaviour but they refrain from calling him out on his behaviour.
Appius manages to get re-elected, along with some of his friends.
Unusually, some plebeians seem to be chosen as well. What is going on?
450 BCE
As soon as he has secured his position, Appius reveals his true self. He becomes cruel and arrogant, and encourages his other decemvirs to aim for tyranny.
They start meeting in secret and vow never to give up their power.
Each man has his own fasces and is attended by lictors in public.
Everyone, patrician and plebeian, is dismayed by their behaviour, but their power is absolute and there seems to be little that anyone can do.
The decemvirs add two tables to the law code, making it The Twelve Tables, including a controversial ban on intermarriage between the plebeians and patricians.
True to their secret evil plan, the decemvirs remain in office, even though their business is seemingly now complete.
As we slide into the 440s, the situation in Rome continues to deteriorate. The decemvirs start using the young patricians to bully the populace. Citizens are scourged with rods, their property can be confiscated and some are even murdered.
Conclusion
FR – And that was the 450s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
PG – Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes.
FR – Thanks for joining us for this Partial Recap!
Episode 111 – Decemvirs in the Senate
Mar 18, 2021
The Second Decemvirate is hotting up and it’s not surprising to learn that Appius Claudius is somehow at the centre of things. We trace Rome through a precarious time, one that our sources have trouble dating – is it one year, two, three? It’s c. 437 BCE; the magistracies are in disarray and the decemvirs hold sway. The situation takes a turn as Rome’s neighbours sense an opportunity to invade…
Episode 111 – Decemvirs in the Senate
The Meeting of the Senate
It is perhaps a measure of how the Second Decemvirate is going that we’re not sure how much time has passed before the decemvirs seek a meeting with the senate. There’s a haziness around dates that indicates we could be looking at up to three years of decemvirate rule!
Appius Claudius speaks first in the Senate ostensibly to discuss how Rome will navigate the threats to her territory. But the Senate, having finally been called together under the rule of the decemvirs, have a lot of things they’d like to talk about! And boy do they have criticism to level. One very important point is that the decemvirs are operating outside the terms of their special magistracy and they are by consequence corrupting the nature of the republic.
The real thorn in Appius’ side while in the senate meeting is the presence of his uncle, Gaius Claudius. The patriarchal structures dictate that Appius show respect for Gaius’ opinion and this opens the way for some power speechifying.
Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus differ in their accounts of how this moment unfolds, but the significance of a familial connection in the senate is retained by both writers. We’ll explore the similarities and differences of these sources.
There’s some explosive details with Gaius Claudius touching on everything from what makes an honourable patrician, to his personal take on Appius’ character flaws, to a savage endictment as to what can happen when you ignore relatives.
The Distraction Factor
Livy shifts from speeches to explore the politicking in the senate including a possible interregum and calls for the decemvirs to give up office by the Ides of May. Meanwhile Dionysius of Halicarnassus continues to explore the rhetorical potential of a large-scale senatorial debate!
Things to Come
A patrician call for a tribune to represent them and protect them from the decemvirate!
The accusation that the decemvirs are the ‘Ten Tarquins’ – ouch!
Intimidation in the senate!
Appius Claudius faces some heated criticism from his uncle Gaius…
Concerns about how Rome will raise an army
Has Rome been abandoned by her citizens?
Gaius Claudius offers Appius a way to salvage his reputation with the people
The possibility of an interrex
A Sabine defection!
Our Players
The Decemvirs (named in this episode)
Appius Claudius
Quintus Fabius Vibulanus (cos. 467, 465, 459 BCE)
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginensis
The Senators
Lucius Valerius Potitus
Marcus Horatius Barbatus
Lucius Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginensis (brother of the decemvir Marcus)
Lucius Quintius Cincinnatus
Titus Quinctius Capitolinus
Lucius Lucretius
Appius Claudius’ Family
Gaius Claudius (Appius’ uncle)
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.39-40
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman History 11.4-15
Sound Credits
Additional music and sound in this episode includes:
and additional sound effects from BBC Sound Effects Beta
The Roman Senate in action. Image via wallpaperaccess.com
Special Episode – The Reception of Cleopatra
Mar 03, 2021
Cleopatra looms large in the imagination, but her legacy is often overshadowed by the western cultural tradition. It turns out that there are many ways to understand the last Pharaoh of Egypt.
Special Episode – The Reception of Cleopatra with Yentl Love
We were thrilled to sit down with Yentl Love to discuss the Islamic reception of Cleopatra. Love is known for her work in making ancient history and classics accessible through her blog the The Queer Classicist. Love has been studying Ancient History and Classics for a number of years and is now bringing the ancient world to life for readers across the globe.
Egypt’s last pharaoh has a rather negative reputation in the western tradition. A classic example is the characterisation of her as a poisoner. Alexander Cabanel, Cleopatra Testing Poisons on Condemned Prisoners, between circa 1845 and circa 1887. Wikimedia Commons
Rethinking Cleopatra
Cleopatra VII was the last Pharaoh to rule Egypt. She was part of the Ptolemaic dynasty, descendants of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. She experienced her fair share of family drama. One of her sisters was executed for seizing the throne from their father! It may not have been a relaxing childhood, but it did prepare her for a political career when she became pharaoh at just eighteen, alongside her younger brother, Ptolemy XIII.
In this episode, we discuss Cleopatra’s journey and her encounters with some of the most famous Romans in history, including Julius Caesar, Mark Antony and Octavian (later Augustus!), and how these relationships would impact the way she was represented in the surviving sources.
There are many Greco-Roman sources that refer to Cleopatra, and these include histories, biographies, poems and letters. One factor that they have in common is the negative portrayal of the Egyptian Pharaoh. This is in contrast to the archaeological record, such as coins, statues and buildings.
One of the most arresting portraits is by Artemisia Gentileschi, Death of Cleopatra, 1613 or 1621-1622. Here we see a woman in middle age, stripped bare of all the insignia of power in her final moment of defiance.
Cleopatra the Scholar
We explore some of the reasons behind the differing portraits that have survived of Cleopatra, before delving into the Islamic source tradition. Produced much later than the Greco-Roman sources or the archaeological material, the Islamic sources provide a distinct portrayal of Egypt’s last queen; one that is not bound up in her relationships with men or her appearance.
Cleopatra the scholar?Elizabeth Taylor in the title role of the 1963 film with writing implement in hand! Image courtesy of www.mediafactory.com.au
Join us for this episode about the historiography of Egypt’s last pharaoh; a woman whose fame deserves to include more than just her Roman lovers.
Select Bibliography
Ashton, S. Cleopatra and Egypt. Malden: Blackwell Publishing, 2008.
El-Daly, O. Egyptology: The Missing Millenium: Ancient Egypt in Medieval Arabic Writings. London & New York: Routledge, 2016.
Gillett, M. “Goddess, Whore, Queen and Scholar.” Teaching History 51, no. 1 (March 2017): 19-23.
Hughes-Hallet, L. Cleopatra: histories, dreams and distortions. London: Pimlico, 1997.
Welch, K. “Cleopatra as Pharaoh?” Teaching History 53, no. 1 (March 2019): 10-15.
Episode 110 – The Mask Comes Off
Feb 18, 2021
The First Decemvirate was a big success, so much so that Rome opts for a Second Decemvirate!
The decemvirs were popular figures in Rome and during 451 BCE they produced the Ten Tables. This initial set of law codes was positively received by the population, but there was something missing… MORE LAWS!
But it isn’t too long before some red flags appear…
Episode 110 – The Mask Comes Off
Wait a Second… Decemvirate
Appius Claudius campaigns hard to get himself re-elected, along with some of his patrician buddies. There are also some new and unusual names that appear in the list for the Second Decemvirate – we might have some plebeian magistrates on the team. Gasp!
As soon as they are confirmed in their positions, the charismatic, approachable and charming Appius reveals his true self and his real intentions. Tyranny!
Life in Rome quickly becomes extremely unpleasant for everyone as the decemvirs and their thugs flex their muscles, but it’s especially tough if you are one of the less privileged persons in the populace. This a dark time for Rome. Join us to find out how they deal with the infamous Second Decemvirate!
The Cancelleria relief, frieze B. This piece is a relief from the rule of Domitian so far ahead of where we are in the narrative, but it does include a lictor carries the fasces with the axe. The first complete figure from the right is a lictor holding the fasces in his left hand.
Our Players
The Second Decemvirate
Appius Claudius. Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inregillensis Sabinus Pat – Cos. 471, 451
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginenesis Pat
Marcus? Sergius Esquilinus Pat
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus Pat – Cos. 458
Quintus Fabius M. f. M. n. Vibulanus Pat – Cos. 467, 465, 459
Quintus Poetelius Libo Visolus
Titus Antonius Merenda
Caeso Duillius Longus?
Spurius. Oppius Cornicen
Manius Rabuleius
Our Sources
Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome
Eder, W. 2005. ‘The Political Significance of the Codification of Law in Archaic Societies: An Unconventional Hypothesis’ in K. Raaflaub (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Forsythe, G. 2005. A Critical History of Early Rome
Momigliano, A. 2005. ‘The Rise of the Plebs in the Archaic Age of Rome’ in K. Raaflaub (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Perello, C. F. A. 2020. ‘The Twelve Tables and the leges regiae; A Problem of Validity’ in S. W. Bell & P. J. du Pleissis (eds) Roman Law Before the Twelve Tables: An Interdisciplinary Approach
Raaflaub, K. 2005. ‘From Protection and Defense to Offense and Participation: Stages in the Conflict of the Orders’ in K. Raaflaub (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Scullard, H. H. 1935. A History of the Roman World 753-146 BC
The Twelve Tables are a landmark moment of early Republican Roman history. The lex duodecim tabularum see the codification of Rome’s laws!
The name ‘The Twelve Tables’ is derived from the idea that these laws were inscribed on to twelve oak tablets. We happen to know quite a lot about the content of the tables, even though they have not survived in epigraphic form. The evidence for the tables comes from extant literature.
Special Episode – The Twelve Tables
The main literary sources that we’re reading at the moment, Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, place the landmark moment of the codification around 450 BCE. The process is not a smooth one from their perspective! Normal magistracies are suspended in favour of a specially selected cohort of ten men who are granted authority to put together the law code.
Believe us when we tell you that the drama associated with the decemvirate has only just begun to be revealed in Episode 109.
The End of Long Struggle?
According to our literary sources, both of whom are writing hundreds of years after the events they describe, the Twelve Tables are the result of the Struggle of the Orders.
This ongoing rift between sections of the Roman population is contentious in its own ways, so it is worth considering the content of the Tables as a point of comparison. The difference between what we might expect of a law code that is the result of a class struggle and the laws themselves is quite something.
So that’s just what we’re going to do in this special mini-episode! Join as we dip into the details of the law code and some of the fascinating details we learn from this document 😊
Roman civilians examining the Twelve Tables after they were first implemented. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Looking to explore the Twelve Tables in more detail? You can read them all here!
This shows the forum in ruins, but it is in this space that the Twelve Tables would have been present to the populace. Image curtesy of Wikimedia Commons, by Kimberlym21
The Partial Recap – the 460s BCE
Feb 04, 2021
The history of Rome is complex, even in the early Republic. Sometimes it’s hard to keep all the details straight so we thought it might be a good time to try something new.
The Partial Recap series will be a scripted overview of each decade of Roman history. First cab off the rank is the decade of the 460s BCE. This is the last complete decade we’ve covered in our Foundation of Rome series, and we’ll be working through the previous decades over the next few months.
Part of the benefit of these episodes will be to help refresh the memory of the key events of each year. We’re also trying out a scripted style that easy allows us to share a transcript, which is a good step forward in terms of accessibility for our podcast. As technology progresses, we’re hoping to automate accurate transcripts for our conversational episodes.
Join us for a Partial Recap of the 460s BCE!
The Partial Recap – The 460s BCE
“A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum.” Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.
Transcript
Inroduction
FR – Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 460s BC!
PG – I’m Dr G
FR – and I’m Dr Rad
PG – and this is our highlights edition of the 460s in Rome. We’ll take you through from 469 to 460 in an epitome of our normal episodes.
FR – Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee
PG – Get ready for a recappuccino.
469 BCE
In 469, the consuls were Titus Numicus Priscus and Aulus Verginius Caelimontanus.
There were some domestic issues that surfaced as the plebeians were pushing for progress with the agrarian law – looking for a fairer share of the land.
They were quickly distracted by issues with the Volscians. The Volscians start making incursions into Roman territory and the consuls journey forward to meet the threat.
Numicius heads off to the belly of the beast – Volscian territory – and his forces pillage and capture coastal settlements as they go. Antium, a major Volscian city, is in their sights.
Verginius goes to deal with Aequians in the east. The Aequians are enemies of Rome and allies of the Volscians. After a bit of a rocky start, he defeats them in combat. He then turns around to deal with the Sabines. Turns out Rome is surrounded by enemies!
Meanwhile, back in Rome, the plebeians decide not to vote in the annual elections. They are tired of the lack of progress on the agrarian law, so what is even the point anymore? The agrarian reform the plebeians have been pushing for would mean a fairer distribution of public land for all Roman citizens. The elite patricians have been stalling, knowing it’ll mean a loss for them.
468 BCE
In 468 BCE, the consuls were Titus Quintius Capitolinus Barbatus (consul for the second time) and Quintus Servilius Priscus.
Unrest between Rome and their neighbours continues. Rome is facing issues with the Sabines to the north east, and the Volscian-Aequian alliance which stretches from the south to the east.
Servilius is off campaigning against the Sabines. They stay well protected behind their walls as the Romans destroy their lands.
Quintius takes on the Volscian-Aequian alliance and meets them on the battlefield. It’s tough, but with some quick thinking (and lying) on his part, as well as charging into battle on foot himself, the Romans pull through on the first day.
The fighting continues the next day and the Romans are massively outnumbered. But one again, the generalship of Quintius saves the day. The Romans seize the enemy camp and the city of Antium!
These amazing deeds secure a triumph for Quintius.
In 467 BCE, the consuls were Titus Aemilius Mamercus (cos. From 470 BCE) and Quintus Fabius Vibulanus.
Fun fact: the consul Quintus Fabius is the sole survivor of his family from the infamous battle of Cremera in c. 477 BCE. Long live the Fabii!
Aemilius Mamercus is drawing some heat from his fellow patricians because he seems open minded when it comes to the issue of agrarian reform and land allotment. The plebeian mood is one of optimism.
However, the patricians as a whole are still resistant. Fabius has a cunning plan to settle the dispute. He suggests they use the new land they have captured near Antium to appease the plebeians.
This suggestion is well-received as three past consuls are ushered in as triumvirs for assigning land to the people (triumviri agro dando). The lucky gentlemen are: Titus Quintius Capitolinus (cos. 471), Aulus Verginius (cos. 469) and Publius Furius (cos. 472).
The plebeians aren’t in a hurry to leave Rome and don’t appreciate being banished from Rome, so the Senate allows Rome’s allies (the Latins and Hernicians) and some Volscians (who have been suitably cowed) to sign up for some land
The consuls have other fish to fry. Aemilius attempts to fight the Sabines. Again they aren’t interested in engaging in open battle and they watch as their territory is ravaged by the Romans
Fabius ventures into Aequian territory only to find that they are very willing to strike a deal with the Romans, perhaps a little too willing….
466 BCE
In 466 BCE, the consuls were Spurius Postumius Albinus Regillensis and Quintus Servilius Priscus (Structus), who had previously been consul in 468 BCE.
It’s a bit confusing but it seems there are some issues with the newly acquired territory and the Latin allies who have moved south aren’t happy about it. Could it be that Rome has offered her allies a bum deal?
Quintus Fabius is no longer consul, but he’s pretty invested in the whole southern territory thing because it was his suggestion, so he heads down to chat to the Aequians to find out whether they are actually violating the new treaty or not.
He soon realises from the suspicious behaviour of the Aequians that he is in trouble and that these guys are up to something
The Romans dispatch the fetiales (deploy the war priests!)and declare unless those responsible for the wrongdoing are expelled from Antium there shall be a just war waged upon them by Rome with the full support of the Roman gods.
The Aequians prefer war – although combat is delayed by a plague that strikes the Roman forces (awkward divine sign?)
Once the Romans can get out of bed (this might take until the following year, sources disagree), both the consuls are sent to deal with the faithless Aequians. After a tough battle, the Romans win the day, leaving some very disgruntled Aequians behind.
The Romans round out the year with a temple dedication to Dius Fidius (sometimes known as Sanctus) – a mysterious god that may have been Sabine in origin.
In 465 BCE, the consuls were Titus Quintius Capitolinus (who was on his third consulship!) and Quintus Fabius Vibulanus (consul for the second time). Quintius Servilius serves as the Prefect of the City.
The Romans are all a-flutter as the Aequians are already back in action and raiding nearby territory!
Titus Quintius Capitolinus heads out and rebukes his men for being so scared, quickly setting up patrols of the borderlands – unfortunately he keeps missing the enemy
Meanwhile Fabius is enjoying a lot of success against the Aequians and captures some booty
With that settled, the courts can re-open back in Rome and it’s time for a census. Livy records 104 714 citizens, not including orphans and widows.
464 BCE
In 464 BCE, the consuls were Aulus Postumius Albus Regillensis and Spurius Furius Medullinus Fusus.
There are ongoing issues with the Aequians and the new territory in Antium – some problems relating to offering land to people you just took it away from perhaps…
Rome’s allies, the Hernicians, bring word that all is not well in the new colony
Trouble seems to rapidly accelerate! Martial law is declared and Postumius is given dictatorial powers
Fighting breaks out unexpectedly in the middle of the night when the Aequians launch an attack on Antium and things are looking very dicey for the Romans. Spurius Furius gets injured in the battle.
Fortunately, Titus Quintius Capitolinus (just off the back of his third consuldhip) turns up with the flower of the Roman youth and the allies just in time. The year finishes in a bit of a stalemate with a lot of loss on both sides.
In 463 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Aebutius Helva and Publius Servilius Priscus.
The year does not begin auspiciously. There are some bad omens which has everyone concerned.
Soon, a serious plague breaks out in Rome and the surrounding areas
It wipes out almost all livestock and a quarter of the senators died – including both the consuls, meaning we see the use of some interregna as a result
The Aequians and the Volscians decide to take advantage of this weakness to attack Roman territory
Whether it was due to the enhancement of natural defences or supernatural forces, the Aequians and Volscians decide not to go through with the assault on the city, and with the help of their allies, Rome lives to fight another day.
As the year wraps up, the plague starts to pass – almost a little too neatly. Was this just a year without enough military action and so the annalists got creative?
In 462 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus and Titus Veturius Geminus Cicurinus.
Rome’s allies, the Hernicians need help as they have Volscians and Aequians camped on their border. Hernician territory is south-east of Rome and lies between the Aequians in the east and the Volscians in the south, so it’s not surprising they find themselves in a tight spot!
The plebeian tribunes aren’t interested in foreign diplomacy and are busy pursuing domestic issues. The tribune Sextius Titus is trying to reignite support for the land allotment bill – but the populace want to wait for a better time for agrarian reform as it looks like Rome will have to go to war.
The Senate find no problems signing people up for this new war
The Romans keep one army at home with Quintus Fabius (cos. 465), send one against the Volscians, and send another to help their allies. That’s three armies.
Nothing much happens out in enemy territory but…
The Volscian-Aequian forces manage to get around the Roman forces, causing a bit of panic in the city. Fabius is quick to calm everyone down and the bandits aren’t brave enough to attack the city itself
On their way home, the Volscians-Aequian force run into Lucretius and are severely defeated – the Volscians are reportedly wiped out
Veturius is awarded an ovatio and Lucretius a triumph, but this celebration is delayed due to some new trouble at home
As we slide from 462 into 461, the tribunes are trying to take advantage of the absence of the consuls. Gaius Terentilius Harsa in particular pushes for reform. He believes that Rome needs to move away from the informal legal system that they have been using. The informal system relies on tradition and only a few (elite) people understand how things work. What Harsa wants is a system that is more transparent and where case law is written down. On top of that, Harsa also lobbies to place a limit on the amount of power that a person can hold.
Harsa suggests putting together a college of 5 men to write down some laws and limit the imperium of the consuls.
The patricians are completely freaked out. The Prefect of the City, Quintus Fabius, steps in and violently opposes Harsa’s ideas. How dare Harsa stir up trouble with the consuls out of town and a war going on? Fabius paints the tribunes as enemies of the state, and Harsa’s colleagues back off.
As things calm down, Lucretius can safely return to have his triumph.
He organised a large lost and found with all of the booty that he recaptured during his campaign out on the Campus Martius.
In 461, the consuls were Publius Volumnius and Servius Sulpicius.
The plebeian tribune Harsa’s proposals from 462 have struck a chord with the people. And the new tribunes continue to push for legal reform, particularly Aulus Verginius.
However, disaster clearly lies ahead, as all sorts of prodigies take place – spectres, earthquakes, a talking cow and a rain of flesh that doesn’t smell or rot. Even the soothsayers were stumped.
There’s only one thing to do in such a situation: consult The Sibylline Books, a collection of ancient wisdom. The wise message: The Romans are warned to be wary of foreigners that might enslave the Romans and to avoid factionalism
The tribunes aren’t deterred by this “wisdom” and accuse the patricians of trying to buy time.
Rome’s allies, the Hernicians show up to warn the Romans that the Volscians are preparing for another war. The Senate wants to levy troops, but the tribunes call foul – seeing this as just another stalling tactic.
The tribunes take matters into their own hands, call an assembly of the people to put forward ideas for their approval. The most Important proposal – to have a group of 10 men elected by the people to draft a set of public and private laws. These laws would be publicly accessible and everyone would be bound by them.
The consuls are provoked by this situation and go on the offensive, attacking the tribunes and pointing out that it is not their job to propose new laws. The consuls accuse the tribunes of just being after more power for themselves.
The consuls attempt to hold a levy to build up the armed forces, but the tribunes arrive and to prevent it from proceeding. Things get violent pretty quickly.
And the senators repay the favour – physically preventing the tribunes from holding a vote on the law about the laws
The senators are keen to drive home the point that the tribunes have no authority beyond helping the poor. As far as the senate is concerned, the tribunes have no legal or sacral basis to propose new laws.
The consuls and older patricians start to take a step back from getting physically involved, but the young patricians are prepared to do no such thing, particularly the feisty Caeso Qunctius.
Caeso a gift from the gods – physically strong, a distinguished soldier, rhetorically gifted and known for getting aggressive with the tribunes.
The tribunes find Caeso an intimidating prospect, except for Aulus Verginius, who brings Caeso up on capital charges.
Caeso has lots of supporters who come forward to try and save him, including his dad, Cincinnatus, who asks for clemency based on his own deeds for the Republic.
However, Marcus Volscius Fictor, another tribune, comes forward and reveals that Caeso was responsible for the murder of his brother. The crowd is so angered by this tale, that Verginius considers putting Caeso in gaol just to keep him safe.
The patricians manage to strike a deal instead – Caeso is released in return for a large sum of money that will be forfeit if he fails to show for his trial.
Caeso promptly disappears, leaving his dad behind to pay the money that was pledged.
In 460 BCE, the consuls were Publius Valerius (a previous consul from 475 BCE and friend to the people) and Gaius Claudius, a die-hard patrician. This is one of the most complex years in the Early Republic!
Marcus Volscius Fictor and Aulus Verginius return as tribunes, and they are pretty pleased that Caeso is out of the way.
The rest of the young patricians start to use a new strategy against the tribunes – moderation all the way unless the law about the laws comes up – then the aggression hits 11
The tribunes decide to devise a conspiracy, forging threatening letters to themselves, supposedly from Caeso, who has taken refuge with the Volscians and Aequians. The tribunes read out these letters in front of the Senate and beg for protection.
The consul Gaius Claudius is quick to see through the tribunes and sends them packing. He then berates the senate for creating the tribunate and allowing such people to falsely accuse an excellent young man like Caeso of murder.
The tribune Verginius takes his grievances about the threats to the people and manages to secure some support from them
With the tribunes and plebeians in a suitably paranoid state, an unexpected attack comes from Appius Herdonius – a noble Sabine – and his band of either slaves, exiles, clients or a mixture of them all
Herdonius & Co sneak into Rome by night and capture the Capitol and citadel. Herdonius invites the plebs and slaves to join him – looks like the Sibylline books were right after all!
The consuls are concerned that this is the beginning of a civil conflict. But the city is in danger, so they take a chance and arm the plebs as they need forces and they needed them right away
The tribunes, on the other hand, are crying “fake news” and urging the plebs not to fight until they secure their rights in return.
Claudius is furious with the plebeians and makes no secret of it, but the consul Valerius manages to talk them into joining the fray with promises that the Senate will look into the law about the laws, just as soon as they have all saved the city – priorities people!
The Romans get ready for a lengthy siege, and get some unexpected help from Lucius Mamilius, the dictator of Tusculum. Mamilius noticed the Sabine ships and rushed on over to help. What a man!
The fighting is fierce, and in the final push, Valerius is tragically killed. But at least the Sabines are defeated. The Sabine leader Herdonius dies a heroic death.
In the aftermath, the plebeians give some of their own money towards the funeral of the great Valerius.
But the tribunes aren’t going to let the issue of the law drop
The remaining consul, Gaius Claudius, uses some delaying tactics to stall them, most notably the fact that he has no colleague
The patricians eventually bring in a man who is capable of dealing with these meddlesome tribunes – Cincinnatus!
Cincinnatus is brought in from his humble farm and promptly lectures the Senate for letting the tribunes get out of control
A stand-off quickly ensues between Cincinnatus and the tribunes as they each try to push their own agendas through
Cincinnatus scores points with everyone in Rome for his strict but fair attitude. He’s sure that the only way to really whip Rome back into shape is to bring in a dictator – those tribunes are out of control
In the short term, a deal is struck in which the consuls agree not to make the plebeians go on campaign and the tribunes let the codification of the laws drop… for the time being
However, the senate also tries to limit the amount of time a magistrate could hold office. But the tribunes are not willing to bend on this issue. The tribunes Verginius and Volscius are quickly reinstated – again
The patricians want to follow suit and bring Cincinnatus back for a second consulship but he refuses to stoop to the level of the plebs.
There’s a lot going on in 460 and to really come to the grips with the detail takes some doing. Tune into the following episodes for all the details:
FR – And that was the 460s in Ancient Rome… or was it?
PG – Remember, this has just been the highlights from the ancient sources, so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes.
FR – Thanks for joining us for this Partial Recap!
Episode 109 – The First Decemvirate
Jan 13, 2021
The Roman republic is in full swing and it’s time for the first decemvirate! The growing discontent amongst the population is reaching breaking point according to our narrative sources.
Episode 109 – The First Decemvirate
This conflict is often referred to as the Struggle of the Orders. It’s predicated on the idea that there is an ongoing tension between the patricians and the plebeians, two groups of Roman citizens at odds with each other. The patricians are the ‘haves’ and the plebeians are the ‘have nots’, but there are plenty of reasons to be wary of this division, since we’re not quite sure what qualities firmly exclude someone from patrician status in this early period.
While modern scholars tend to see this division of the Roman population as a retrojection of our narrative and annalistic sources, this is nevertheless the lens through which Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are navigating the early history of the republic. And where they lead, we shall follow.
In terms of chronology, it’s 452 BCE, which means Rome is now over 300 years old! From here we begin to delve into the details of how the first decemvirate emerged.
Ten Men!
To alleviate the concerns of the people, we see the rise of the decemvirs. The decemviri consulari imperio legibus scribundis ‘the ten men with consular imperium for the writing down of the laws’ have a very specific task. It is considered of such importance that normal governance is suspended while the decemvirs do their things. The task is to put down the best laws of Rome and Greece into a document that can be placed in public for use in perpetuity.
There are some concerns about what this decemvirate is designed to achieve from the out set. Livy suggests that there may have been legitimate concerns about this being a grab for power by the privileged patricians.
This is supported by the requests for the Icilian law and the land allotment on the Aventine that it provided to be kept in place (Interested in the details of the Lex Icilia de Aventino Publicndo? We explore all the details in Episode 104 – Aventine, Aventine).
There are also concerns that the decemvirate may attempt to dissolve the tribune of plebs, a magistracy that was hard won and often a thorn in the side of the patrician senate.
Appius “Building Unity” Claudius
When the consul for 452 BCE Menenius falls ill and is unable to fulfil his duties as consul, Appius Claudius (consul designate for 451 BCE) offers to support the remaining consul, Publius Sestius, by organising the decemvirate which is due to begin the next year.
He works closely with the tribunes and other inserted senators and seems very invested in harmony, peace, and ensuring the unity of the state as they embark upon the codification of the laws.
Things to listen out for:
The way the decemvirs share power
A day in the life of the decemvirs
The charisma of Appius Claudius
The Ten Tables!
Ager publicus (or the absence thereof)
Suppression of tribunician power
Our Players
Consuls of 452 BCE
Publius Sestius Q. f. Vibi n. Capitolinus(?) Vaticanus (Pat)
Lucius / Titus Menenius Agripp. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat)
The First Decemvirate of 451 BCE
Meet your decemvirs!
The decemvirs are led by the consul designates for the year 451 BCE
Appius Claudius Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inrigillensis Sabinus
Titus Genucius L. f. L. n. Augurinus
They are joined by
Publius Sestius
Lucius Veturius (Livy) / Titus Veturius (Dionysius of Halicarnassus)
Gaius Iulius
Aulus Manlius
Publius Sulpicius (Livy) / Servius Sulpicius (Dionysius of Halicarnassus)
Publius Curiatius (Livy) / Publius Horatius (Dionysius of Halicarnassus)
Titus Romilius
Spurius Postumius
The Second Decemvirate of 450 BCE
This episode also features an introduction to the second decemvirate! Welcome back to our Appius with the mostest:
Appius Claudius Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inrigillensis Sabinus
This time joined by
Quintus Fabius Vibulanus M. f. M. n. (Pat) (cos. 467, 565, 459 BCE)
Marcus Cornelius – f. Ser. n. Maluginensis (Pat)
Marcus Sergius – f. – n, Esquilinus (Pat)
Lucius Minucius P. f. M. n. Esquilinus Augurinus (Pat) (cos. 458 BCE)
Titus Antonius – f. – n. Merenda (Pat)
Manius Rabuleius – f. – n. (Pat, according to Dionysius of Halicarnassus, but thought now to be a plebeian name)
Quintus Poetelius – f. – n. Lino Visolus (plebeian)
Additional sound effects: BBC Sound Effects (Beta)
A day in ancient Rome; being a revision of Lohr’s “Aus dem alten Rom”, with numerous illustrations, by Edgar S. Shumway (1885). Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Special Episode – The Year of the Four Emperors with Dr Rob Cromarty
Dec 17, 2020
We are thrilled to be joined by Dr Rob Cromarty, better known as Doc Crom, for this special episode on the Year of the Four Emperors. Doc Crom, is a teacher, author, and fellow fan of #PhallusThursdays and #FannyFriday over on twitter and we recommend you follow him for his excellent tweets about Latin literature and ancient artefacts.
In this very special episode we talk about his journey into Classics and his take on the personalities and power struggles involved in the aftermath of the death of the Emperor Nero.
Special Episode – The Year of the Four Emperors with Dr Rob Cromarty
What is ‘The Year of the Four Emperors’?
The Emperor Nero made several mistakes in the last few years of his reign. Following the brutal suppression of a serious conspiracy against him, Nero left Rome in the hands of his freedmen so that he could compete in the Olympic Games.
Back in Rome, the people were dealing with low grain supplies. The aristocracy had been alienated for years, and the increasing use of delatores (informers) only made matters worse. The army was also on edge after the execution of talented generals like Corbulo. The situation in early 68 CE was tense.
The extent of Roman power in the crucial years of 68 and 69 CE. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
That’s Revolting
The Year of the Four Emperors really kicks off with rebellion. In March, Caius Julius Vindex, then stationed in Gaul, revolted in protest against Nero’s tax policy. Some problems never change. Servius Sulpicius Galba, an old associate of some of the Julio-Claudians, was stationed in Spain and decided to throw his lot in with Vindex.
Vindex’s rebellion was put down by Lucius Verginius Rufus, and Galba was declared a public enemy. But that did not last long. The Praetorian Prefect, Nymphidius Sabinus, promised the guard a hefty donative to transfer their allegiance from Nero to Galba, and before long the Senate had made Nero himself a public enemy.
The First of the Four
Galba became emperor in June 68 CE after the suicide of Nero. As a stern, experienced candidate, he must have seemed like a promising choice. However, he soon acquired something of a reputation. According to sources, his assumption of power involved the death of many, and he was stingy with money. Most importantly, he did not provide soldiers with the bonuses they had been promised in exchange for their support. As Tacitus (Hist. 1.49.6) remarked, “…no one would have doubted his ability to reign had he never been emperor.”
Galba was also 73 years old and had no children. This didn’t bode well for stability, and so he decided to focus on improving his position in this area by adopting Lucius Calpurnius Piso in January of 69 CE, a deliberate snub to one of his most prominent supporters – Otho.
A portrait bust of the Roman emperor Galba. This piece is held in the Antiquities Museum in the Royal Palace, Stockholm. Photo credit to Wolfgang Sauber via Wikimedia Commons.
The Year of the Four Emperors, Take Two
To say that Otho was displeased is an understatement. He bribed the Praetorians to back his cause; after all, they weren’t getting bonuses from Galba! On the 15th of January 69 CE, Piso and Galba were assassinated in the forum. Otho thus became the first emperor to unequivocally acquire power by killing the previous emperor. Otho was well known as he had been a prominent member of Nero’s court; indeed, Nero’s most beloved wife, Poppaea Sabina, had once been married to Otho. Unlike Galba, who sought to distance himself from Nero and condemn his reputation, Otho played on the connection.
However, he faced challenges from the outset. Otho became emperor on 15th January 69 CE and took control of the city of Rome, but another would-be emperor had already taken initiative. The soldiers in Germania Inferior refused to swear loyalty to Galba on the 1st January 69 CE, soon to be followed by the troops of Germania Superior. Vitellius had been stationed in Germania Inferior by Galba, and he began to organise his bid for power. Otho had a lot of support, but his forces were not close by, and he was defeated by Vitellius’ forces at the First Battle of Cremona and driven back to Bedriacum. Rather than prolong the civil war, Otho committed suicide on 16th April 69 CE. But his death would not bring the conflict to an end.
Silver Denarius of Otho, Rome mint. His bare head right, IMP M OTHO CAESAR AVG TR P around / Securitas standing left holding wreath and scepter, SECURITAS P R. RIC 8. BMCRE 17. Sear RCV 2162. Source: accla.org
Of all the emperors to reign in this period, Vitellius probably has the worst reputation (thank you, Flavians?). He had a good relationship with parts of the army and was a well-known figure from the Julio-Claudian period, but the sources record that he was also a glutton, and associated with actors, chariot-drivers and freedmen.
As Vitellius’ popularity started to decline, another emperor was proclaimed in the east on 1st July 69 CE. A man from a modest background, Titus Flavius Vespasianus, had become a trusted military commander. He was supported by the Prefect of Egypt, Tiberius Julius Alexander, and gradually others joined his cause, including the governor of Upper Pannonia (Primus) and the governor of Syria (Mucianus).
A second Battle of Cremona ensued in September 69 CE between the Vitellians and some of Vespasian’s supporters. By December, Vespasian’s men were in Rome itself, and Vitellius was located and slaughtered in the Forum.
This portrait of Vitellius is based on the bust held by the Capitoline Museums in Rome. This particular example is held by the Royal Academy of Fine Arts of San Fernando in Madrid. Photo credit: Luis García (Zaqarbal) via Wikimedia Commons
What’s going on with Otho and Vitellius? Tune into our classic episode for more details.
A New Dynasty Begins!
The year of the four emperors draws to a close with Vespasian. He managed to hold on to power for the next ten years, and was succeeded by his two sons, establishing the second dynasty of imperial Rome.
But how much did his victory influence the historical accounts of this time?
Join us as we discuss the ins and outs of this complicated period, which actually lasted for longer than just one year.
Portrait of Titus Flavius Vespasian, who emerges as a stable ruler from the chaotic years of 68 and 69 CE. Photo credit: Heribert Pohl via Wikimedia Commons
Major Primary Sources
Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, the lives of Nero, Otho, Galba, Vitellius, and Vespasian
Additional sound effects: Fesliyan Studios, the BBC, Sound Bible, and Pond5
Episode 108 – Plague and Politics
Nov 19, 2020
It’s 453 BCE and just as Rome seems to be heading towards a legal milestone disaster strikes: it’s a plague!
Now plagues are terrible, of that there is no doubt, but how does this influence the path to codification? We’re here to find out.
Episode 108 – Plague and Politics
The Character of the Plague
It is hard to identify the plague with certainty. What is clear from our later written sources is that the collective memory recalls this plague as highly contagious with the capacity to leap between species. People caught it but so too did some of the animals that people worked closely with.
The origin of the plague and how it eventually came to an end are lost to us. In lieu of strong osteoarchaeological evidence, it is possible to interpret this plague as a shared idea of opposition to the codification of the laws, which the elites likely saw as infringing upon their power.
Both Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus focus on the devastating consequences of the plague. Things to listen out for:
The horrific death toll
The Aequians!
The issue with the harvest
With 453 BCE wholly occupied with pestilence and its effects, everyone still standing is hoping for a better time in 452 BCE…
The Athenian Junket Returns!
Lucky for Rome, the plague does not go so far as Athens. The delegates sent out to find out about the law codes that others have produced return with some new ideas. There are some odd things about our narrative accounts though which Dr Rad delves into. Some pertinent questions:
Why would the Romans go all the way to Athens?
What are the law codes of the Greeks like? Do the Twelve Tables really suggest a Greek influence?
What might our narrative accounts gain by suggesting a connection with Greece at this point?
Rome’s Heading into Uncertain Territory
It’s fair to say that our narrative sources leave us somewhat dissatisfied. Our sources inspire less confidence the further we move into the Struggle of the Orders.
Who are the patricians?
Who are the plebeians?
How were these demarcations understood by the Romans?
Do our writers from the late Republican period really have a clear handle on what happened in the past?
Will the Twelve Tables live up to the suspense?
Only time will tell…
Thomas Cole The Course of Empire. Desolation 1836. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Our Players in 453BCE
Consuls
Publius Curiatus — f. — n. Fistus Trigeminus (Pat)
Sextus Quinctilius Sex f. P. n. ‘Varus’ (Pat)
Suffect Consul
Spurius Furius Medullinus Fusus (cos. 464 BCE) (Pat)
Flamen Quirinalus
Servius Cornelius
Augur
C. Horatius Pulvillus
Our Players in 452 BCE
Consuls
Gaius/Lucius/Titus (?) Menenius Agripp. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat)
Publius Sestius Q. f. Vibi. n. Capito(linus?) Vaticanus (Pat)
Consular Nominations
Appius Claudius Ap. f. M. n. Crassus Inrigillenssis Sabinus (Pat)
Titus Genucius L. f. L. n. Augurinus (Pat)
Our Sources
Dr Rad reads Livy ab urbe condita 3.32
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 10.53-54
Episode 107 – Let the Codification Begin!
Oct 15, 2020
We jump into 454 BCE where we start to see the consequences of the events of the previous year play out. It’s hard to get away from our “Roman Achilles” who, in his position as plebeian tribune, levels a charge of “injuring the state” against the former consul Romilius. This sets up a cascade of interesting incidents.
Episode 107 – Let the Codification Begin
There’s little agreement between our major written sources for this year. Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus diverge in much of the details even though they hit upon some shared touchstones.
But this is partly about what we don’t know…
Dr Rad explores some of the complexities of who is who during this period. While our sources use categories like ‘patrician’ and ‘plebeian’, these terms offer a binary model for thinking about the structure of Roman society. Often this is a simplification of what was really happening. By the time we get to the first century BCE when these histories were written, the composition of these groups is more clear cut than they were in the fifth century.
Speeches as didactic tools
Dr G delves into Dionysius of Halicarnassus’ use of speeches as a means of teasing out a Roman perspective. Speeches are a significant feature in his writing and sets his work apart from Livy during this period. Dionysius’ penchant for rhetoric offers a means of appreciating how the Romans thought. They also offer a framework for Greek readers to appreciate the reasoning of the Romans.
Listen in for…
Consuls with attitude!
A story of a father, a son, and filial duty
The Lex Aternia Tarpeia
The law about the laws!
A surprising consular return
The laws of Solon
Our Players for 454 BCE
The Consuls
Spurius Tarpeius M. f. M.n. Montanus Capitolinus (Pat.)
Aulus Terminius/Aternius – f. – n. Varus Fontinalis (Pat.)
Special Episode – Medusa with Let’s Talk About Myths Baby
Sep 17, 2020
Medusa fills the imagination with a very particular kind of fascination. Pity for her situation and dread of what she is capable of make her one of the most recognisable figures from Greek myth. She has transcended that context with her story reimagined by the Romans, the artists of the Renaissance, and she continues to excite wonder today.
We sat down to talk about Medusa and her representation with the fabulous Liv, host of Let’s Talk about Myths Baby.
Special Episode – Medusa with Let’s Talk About Myths Baby
In this far-reaching conversation, we’ll be considering some of the key stories that make up the mythological world of Medusa including:
How she came to have snakes for hair
The challenges she faced as the mortal Gorgon
And how her representation often reflects the values of the context of the artwork.
Who is Medusa?
When you start to look, Medusa is everywhere (but also, don’t look!). She is an extremely ancient figure best known for the Greek myths associated with the hero Perseus.
Medusa is famous for her snaky hair and ability to turn living things to stone with her gaze. This ability has been immortalised in movies such as Clash of the Titans (1981) and its 2010 remake, and Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief (2010).
Her decapitated head—the Gorgoneoin—can be found on the breastplate of the goddess Athena, the logo for Versace and the Sicilian flag, as well as decorating many ancient buildings, floors and pottery.
Medusa endures today as a polyvalent symbol of danger and empowerment. She recently featured in Assassin’s CreedOdyssey (2018) and her name is given to the crime network in The Hustle (2019), the gender-swapped reboot of Dirty Rotten Scoundrels (1988).
Join us as we discuss Medusa’s journey to becoming a symbol that can seemingly serve many masters.
Ancient Accounts of Medusa
This is not an exhaustive list, but a guide to those we mention in this discussion and a great place to start reading!
Homer Iliad5.741 – The Gorgon’s head is described as a “ghastly monster” and a “potent symbol of Zeus”. Also see 8.349, where Hector’s gaze is likened to that of Gorgo and 11.36f for a description of a Gorgon’s head on the face of Agamemnon’s shield.
A great deal of Medusa’s complexity has developed through her reception over time. This is particularly apparent in art. We explore a few key examples that draw attention to a range of interpretations
The Rondanini Medusa
Dating to the late Hellenistic or Augustan periods, the Rondanini Medusa is iconic. It captured the imagination of Goethe during his travels in Italy and it shares many visual elements with the Versace logo as well.
“So-called “Rondanini Medusa”. Marble, Roman copy after a 5th-century BC Greek original by Phidias, which was set on the shield of Athena Parthenos.” Source: Wikimedia Commons, photograph by MatthiasKabel, 2005-10-26.
Perseus by Cellini, 1545-1554
This exceptional bronze can be found in Florence where it offers interpretation of the ancient myth and comment on Medici politics…
Bronze and marble (base), 1545–1554. Under the Loggia dei Lanzi, Florence, since 1554. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons, photograph by Jastrow, 13-9-2005
Medusa by Caravaggio 1595-98
Florence is home not only to the Cellini bronze, but also the famous Caravaggio portrait, where the face of Medusa is interchangeable with that of the artist himself.
You can also explore Caravaggio’s Testa di Medusa in detail here.
Bust of the Medusa by Bernini 1644/8
Liv cites Bernini’s Medusa as a piece that encourages empathy for the subject. This perspective will come to the fore again in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries.
Held by the Musei Capitolini, Rome. Source: Wikimedia Commons, photograph by Miguel Hermoso Cuesta, 17-4-2014.
You can explore Bernini’s sensitive artistry in detail here.
Medusa in King’s Quest 3, 1986
Check out this quality graphic!
For Dr G, this was a definitely encounter with Medusa. For many children of the 80s, encountering myths through computer games was a window into the ancient world and its amazing stories.
Garbati’s Medusa flipped the heroic narrative of Perseus and cast our snake-haired heroine as a woman of her own destiny. This reimagining of Medusa’s story demonstrates how cultural perspective can shift representation.
You can explore high quality images of Garbati’s work here.
The complexities of Medusa’s story allow for a variety of interpretations. Garbati’s sculpture positions her as a figure of female empowerment, gaining power by taking the head of Perseus. The image of her head severed from her body has also been repurposed as political imagery by pro-Trump, anti-Hillary campaigners. In such cases, the myth of Medusa is designed to keep women from power. Why are we drawn back to her story time and again?
Good Greeks!
Since we recorded this episode, we’re excited to say that Liv has a book coming out soon! It’s all about Greek myth and is gorgeously illustrated. If you’re looking for a little more Greek myth in your life, this might be just the ticket 🙂
Looking to delve further into the world of Medusa? We’ve got you covered. Below are the works we refer to in this episode as well as readings that will build your appreciation for this incredibly engaging figure from Greek myth.
Bremmer, J. N. & Welwei, K. 2006. ‘Gorgo’, in Brill’s New Pauly. Consulted online on 11 January 2020.
Hirst’s article is a great place to start. This is an accessible overview of who Medusa was and the main myths associated with her in the ancient world.
Keith focuses on Ovid, Lucan and Statius and analyses how these Roman authors reconciled themselves with the power of Medusa’s image. Ovid and Lucan’s work has been very influential in shaping the Medusa myth!
Lewis, S. 2011. ‘Women and Myth’, in A Companion to Greek Mythology, eds K. Dowden & N. Livingstone (Wiley), 443-458.
Mergenthaler, V. 2008. ‘Gorgon’, in Brill’s New Pauly Supplements I – Volume 4: The Reception of Myth and Mythology. Consulted online on 11 January 2020.
Topper’s article is extremely useful for anyone interested in the artistic representations of Perseus and Medusa. Topper explains that earlier attempts to categorise representations of the Gorgon were too “neat” and linear, suggesting that Medusa and her sister moved from more monstrous or grotesque to a beautified image in the Hellenistic and Roman periods.
This introduction provides a succinct overview of the work of French feminist Hélène Cixous’, namely her ‘Laugh of the Medusa’. Keener readers may wish to consult the full essay on Cixous contained in this volume by Zajko.
Sound Credit
With gratitude we offer thanks to Bettina Joy de Guzman for the evocative music that accompanies this episode. She’s an incredibly talented musician and scholar as well as a fantastic supporter of our podcast.
Episode 106 – Spoiler Alert
Aug 13, 2020
We continue to follow the cause of our Roman Achilles–more formally known as Lucius Siccius Dentatus–in 455 BCE. Dentatus is truly the star of the this period of history from the perspective of Dionysius of Halicarnassus and Dr G has a lot to say about that!
Episode 106 – Spoiler Alert
What can we glean from a history written long after the fact?
Dr Rad takes us through some of the key concerns we face when approaching the written sources for the early republic.
Part of the trouble steams simply from the time of the events when people like Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus lived centuries later. But we also run into the challenge of stock figures, whose names and existence are open to question. Such figures serve an important role in bringing a historical narrative to life.
The complications of public discourse
The traditionalist streak runs deeply through the patricians. This comes as no surprise as they are the beneficiaries of the structures already in place in Rome, but it does lead to some questionable behaviour.
Things to listen out for:
The patricians position in the forum
The challenges raised by the pons or ‘voting bridge’
Patrician power called into question through trials
Some intriguing exchanges through the goddess Ceres…
Trouble in Tusculum!
A real set to between Romilius and Siccius
The discrepancy between Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus about the treasury
Our Players
The Consuls
Titus Romilius T. f. T. n. Rocus Vaticanus (Pat)
Gaius Veturius P. f. – n. Cicurinus (Pat)
Tribunes of the Plebs
L. Icilius
L. Alienus
+ 8 others!
Notable Plebeians
Lucius Siccius Dentatus
Some Family Appearances
the Postumii
the Sempronii
the Cloelii
Our Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 10.40-47
Dr Rad reads Livy ab urbe condita 3.31
Further Reading
Interested in knowing more about this period in Rome’s history. Take a leaf from Dr Rad and jump into some scholarly reading:
Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome
Forsythe, G. 2005. A Critical History of Early Rome
Momigliano, A. 2005. ‘The Rise of the Plebs in the Archaic Age of Rome’ in Rafflaub, K. (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Rafflaub, K. 2005. ‘From Protection and Defense to Offense and Participation: Stages in the Conflict of the Orders’ in Rafflaub, K. (ed) Social Struggles in Archaic Rome: New Perspectives on the Conflict of the Orders
Roman warrior charging – Alex Broeckel. Source: Pinterest.
Sound Credits
Sound Effects courtesy of BBC Sound Effects (Beta) Final credits: Excerpt from ‘Ancient Arcadian Harp’ by Cormi
Episode 105 – The Roman Achilles
Jul 16, 2020
There’s nothing quite like learning that there’s a Roman Achilles! In this episode we get to meet the man behind the legend.
Episode 105 – The Roman Achilles
Before we jump in, let’s find out where things stand. It’s 455 BCE and our narrative sources have put forward the case that the opening up of the Aventine was an important step under the new collective of ten tribunes.
But all is not well on the homefront of Rome. Things get off to a bad start when the consuls try to forcibly raise the levy. The tribunes step up to the plate in defence of the plebeians and we delve into what privileges and powers go along with the position.
What we begin to see is the some of the complex workings of contested public space and the challenges of fighting for your rights with only a small crowd of citizens. As the crowd of disaffected plebeians swells in significance, the new consuls are faced with a dilemma – met with the crowd or remain in the safety of the senate…
How does the tribunicianship operate?
This seems to be a big looming question in our sources. There’s a range of possible activities that an expanded collective can work towards. The capacity to be decisive, to operate on multiple fronts for common goals, to get passionate about taking strong action. It’s intriguing to see how this potential is redirected under the influence of the patricians.
Events to anticipate:
The tribunes enter a meeting of the senate
A big push for the law about the laws
A consular venture to Tusculum to save them from the Aequians
A controversial decision about what to do with some of the spoils of war
Some clear deviation between the narrative focus of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus
A speech from the ‘Roman Achilles’ including mention of the corona aurea
Our Players
The Consuls
Titus Romilius T. f. T. n. Rocus Vaticanus (Pat)
Gaius Veturius P. f. – n. Cicurinus (Pat)
Tribunes of the Plebs
L. Icilius
L. Alienus
+ 8 others!
Notable Plebeians
Lucius Siccius Dentatus “born with teeth”
Our Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Rom. Ant. 10.33-39. Dr Rad reads Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.31
Joseph-Désiré Court 1820 Achilles Introduced to Nestor. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Sound Credits
Sound Effects courtesy of BBC Sound Effects (Beta) Final credits: Excerpt from ‘Ancient Arcadian Harp’ by Cormi
Special Episode – Agrippina the Younger with Dr Emma Southon
Jun 12, 2020
As far as incredible women in history go, it’s hard to top Agrippina the Younger. Political, ambitious, and a savvy operator are all ways we might interpret the evidence that remains for her life. But its fair to say that our ancient sources are a little less than kind.
Special Episode – Agrippina the Younger with Dr Emma Southon
Quite the Pedigree…
As the Julio-Claudian family developed into a fully formed imperial dynasty, Agrippina the Younger emerged as an important figure in the rule of three emperors: her brother Caligula, her uncle (and later husband) Claudius, and her son Nero.
She could trace her connections back to Augustus through her mother’s line. She was also the daughter of the wildly popular Germanicus, who died too soon and under circumstances palled with suspicion. Her family connections through her father were Claudian and ultimately this meant she embodied the Julio-Claudians.
After the demise of her siblings, we can think of Agrippina as the distilled essence of the family.
But having an illustrious ancestry is not necessarily indicative of how one’s life will turn out, and in this special episode, we have the great pleasure of sitting down with Dr Emma Southon, who has written an accessible academic history of Agrippina the Younger to delve further into the life of this amazing woman.
A recent reconstruction of Agrippina the Younger as potentially the lead singer of an 80s band… Source: Royalty_Now on pinterest
What does it take to write a historical biography?
Dr Emma Southon’s book Agrippina: Empress, Exile, Hustler, Whore was published by Unbound in 2018. This biography of Agrippina the Younger combines historical detail, engagement with the ancient sources and a colloquial tone to make for a roaring read.
We consider the path to publication for this biography and how academics are finding ways to bring detailed critical history to a broader readership.
Looking to delve further in the life and times of Agrippina?
Here’s some sources to get you started:
Primary Sources
Tacitus Annals, esp Books 12-14; Agrippina the Elder’s tears as read in Agrippina the Younger’s memoirs by Tacitus Annals 4.53
One of the most famous depictions of Agrippina on coinage is her representation with her sisters on the reverse of one of Gaius ‘Caligula’ Augustus’ issues. c. 37-41 CE. The depiction of living women on coinage was rare and Agrippina’s appearance here is an exceptional moment in Julio-Claudian iconography.
Before things went wrong… Nero and his mother, Agrippina the Younger depicted together on the obverse side. c. 54 CE. Source: Wikimedia Commons and Classical Numismatic Group, Inc.
Episode 104 – Aventine, Aventine
May 14, 2020
We return to the City of Rome in 456 BCE and follow the ongoing domestic struggles that Rome faces in defining herself in terms of transparency at law.
Episode 104 – Aventine, Aventine
With a new crop of tribunes come some important consequences. While in previous years the tribunes have focused on the goal of ensuring that there is a clear and public way for any Roman citizen to access the laws in order to understand them, with new tribunes comes a shift in thinking.
A Return to Redistribution of Public Land
After a long hiatus, the issue of public land returns to the tribunician agenda. It’s safe to say that things are about to get messy in Rome.
If there’s one thing the patricians never seem to want to budge on, it’s negotiating the fair use of public land.
Ten Tribunes Means Twice the Representation!
Not only are there new tribunes but there are now plenty more of them representing the plebeians. We’ll get a taste of what can happen with a larger group of tribunes. That’s a lot of bodies to protect the interests of citizens and we’ll see how that magisterial privilege can be deployed.
The Lex Icilia de Aventino Publicando
We delve into the nitty gritty of the law passed in this year which is unusual for a number of reasons.
The Players
Consuls
Marcus Valerius M’. f. Volusi n. Maxumus Lactuca (pat)
Spurius Verginius A. f. A. n. Tricostus Caeliomontanus (pat)
Tribunes
Lucius Icilius
Lucius Alienus
Sources
Dr Rad read Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.31 Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 10.31-32
J. M. W. Turner c.1820s-1836. Rome, from Mount Aventine. Finding a painting that could do justice to the early Republican Aventine was tough, so we opted for this gorgeous, though much later view back onto nineteenth century Rome instead.
Sound Credits
Sound Effects courtesy of BBC Sound Effects (Beta), Pond5, and Lewi Pilgrim
Final credits: Excerpt from ‘Ancient Arcadian Harp’ by Cormi
Episode 103 – Ten Terrific Tribunes
Apr 10, 2020
It’s c. 457 BCE in Rome and in this episode we explore the state of affairs in the wake of Cincinnatus’ dictatorship.
Rome’s affairs with her neighbours are not off to a good start. As the City lifts her gaze outward after recent troubles, nearby peoples have taken matters into their own hands. The Sabines and the Aequians are both making bold moves stretching Rome’s attention both to the north and the south.
Episode 103 – Ten Terrific Tribunes
The Law About the Laws
As Rome faces threats from a range of peoples, the usual patrician policy of fielding a citizen army through the levy comes about. We’re in pretty familiar territory here as the levy has been a sore point for years according to our narrative tradition and we can reliably expect the tribunes of the people to request greater transparency in relation to the laws. The desire for a law code that is public and accessible is increasing.
As tensions rise, the differing political aims of the Senate, the consuls, and the tribunes clash.
Things to Look Forward to
Roman masculinity – how to define it and what it means from the perspective of a Greek writer
Cincinnatus makes a fantastically interesting speech!
Horatius tries to rally the people together for war while preserving the patrician position of privilege
A discussion of some of the intersections and conflicts that arise from gender and class narratives
A rhetorical exploration of age versus youth
A proposal to increase the number of plebeian tribunes to ten!
The senatorial back-and-forth regarding the pros and cons of increasing the number of the plebeian tribunes
Hints of when we recorded this piece – during the long Australian bushfire season, but prior to concerns about COVID-19
Who’s Who
Consuls
Quintus Minucius P.f. M. n. Esquilinus (pat.)
Marcus (Gaius?) Horatius M. f. M. n. Pulvillus (pat.) COS II
Tribunes
Aulus Verginius
Volscius Fictor (?)
Two or three other tribunes unnamed in our sources
Sources
Dr G reads Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 10.26-30
Dr Rad reads Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.29-30
Jean Lemaire c. 1645-55 Roman Senators and Legates
Sound Credits
Sound Effects courtesy of BBC Sound Effects (Beta), and John Stracke via Sound Bible
Final credits: Excerpt from ‘Ancient Arcadian Harp’ by Cormi
Special Episode – An Interview with Emeritus Professor Edwin Judge
Mar 12, 2020
We had the very great pleasure to sit down with Emeritus Professor Edwin Judge to discuss his latest publication The Failure of Augustus: Essays on the Interpretation of a Paradox (2019).
Special Episode – An Interview with Emeritus Professor Edwin Judge
Judge has a long-reaching career, accepting his first junior lectureship in the 1950s and going on accept the inaugural History Chair at Macquarie University in Sydney. Dr G and Dr Rad met as undergraduate students at Macquarie so it is our extraordinary pleasure to sit down with Judge and have the chance to chat.
Dr G (left) holding Cooley’s Res Gestae, Emeritus Professor Edwin Judge (centre), and Dr Rad (right) holding Judge’s The Failure of Augustus
In this far reaching conversation we learn about Judge’s evolving thoughts on Augustus over the course of his academic career, some of the salient connections between Augustus and Tiberius that emerge from considering Augustus’ aims, the content of the Res Gestae Divi Augusti, and consideration of Augustus in terms of failure.
Things to look forward to:
A consideration of the importance of understanding time as a means of approaching historical interpretation
The challenges that Tiberius faces in the wake of Augustus’ death
The importance of the Res Gestae as a lens to Augustus’ life and career
Key materials for approaching the subject of Augustus’ failure.
The cursus honorem of Augustus, as visualised by Edwin Judge. Used with permission of the author. This table appears on the cover of The Failure of Augustus and page 8 of the collection.
Final credits: Excerpt from ‘Ancient Arcadian Harp’ by Cormi
Episode 102 – Cincinnatus, Dictator
Feb 20, 2020
It’s c. 458 BCE and Rome’s troubles culminate in the appointment of a dictator. In this episode we explore the context which leads to the appointment of this emergency position and trace Rome’s progress as she attempts to face enemies on multiple fronts.
Episode 102 – Cincinnatus, Dictator
Not only are Roman forces squaring off against the Sabines and the Aequians, but there are ongoing issues on the home front. According to the narrative histories of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, the tribunes of the plebs continue to lobby for transparency regarding the laws. The struggle to pin down a public law code seems elusive. In this year it is also overshadowed by the troubles that Minucius’ consular forces face in the south-east.
The Aequians are currently led by Cloelius Gracchus and the Roman forces led by the consul Minucius have been trapped in a valley, while the other consul Nautius is campaigning against the Sabines.
The Dictator
Our sources are at pains to let us know that Cincinnatus was both unprepared for his appointment as dictator and not particularly pleased to have the role foist upon him. This is part of a larger trope established in Latin literature of the good leader whose fitness for the role is encapsulated by his lack of ambition for it.
In this way, both Livy and Dionysius offer us a chance to see Cincinnatus—and indeed this era of patrician history—as one populated with brave, proud characters who understood the hierarchy and were staunchly traditional in their outlook.
What does a dictator do?
As the most significant magistrate in Roman society, the dictator has a superior legal capacity to make commands and can hold the position for up to six months. Despite his generally dissatisfaction with the situation, Cincinnatus jumps straight in. We’ll be looking at how he goes about:
Raising an army
Organising troops
And getting on the march
We explore what Cincinnatus gets up to in the role and how he contributes to supporting Minucius against the Aequians at Mount Algidus. Tune in to hear all about:
The military tactics Cincinnatus deploys
How Cincinnatus deals with requests for peace
Some rather unusual divisions of booty
Just what happens to the Aequian city of Corbio
A triumph!
The incredible virtus of Cincinnatus!
Alexander Cabanel 1843. Cincinnatus receives the ambassadors of Rome
Our players
458 BCE
Dictator
L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus
Master of the Horse
L. Tarquitius L. f. Flaccus
Consuls
C. Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus – cos II
L. Minucius P. f. M. n Esquilinus Augurinus
Prefect of the City
Q. Fabius Vibulanus
Tribunes
Aulus Verginius
Marcus Volscius Fictor (it’s not certain whether Volscius holds the tribunianship in 459 BCE)
Aequian Leader
Cloelius Gracchus
Dictator’s wife
Racilia
‘Freedom of the City’
L. Mamilius the Tusculan
Sources
Dr Rad explores Livy 3.26-29
Dr G is considering Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 10.23-25
Sound Credits
Sound Effects courtesy of BBC Sound Effects (Beta) and Free SFX Final credits: Excerpt from ‘Ancient Arcadian Harp’ by Cormi
A Tribute to Kirk Douglas
Feb 06, 2020
Join Dr Rad as she reminiscences about one of her film favourites and pays tribute to the man that has unwittingly dominated her life for over a decade.
Special Episode – A Tribute to Kirk Douglas
2020 has been on my radar for a while, listeners, as it marks sixty years since the iconic movie Spartacus was released. However, just a few days before the Oscars, the star of this film has passed away at the age of 103. Given the helicopter crash, the strokes, it is amazing that he lived this long, but I still feel very melancholy that a film star of his stature is no more.
I have a strong affinity for Issur Danielovitch (Kirk Douglas) and not just because I grew up watching his movies (which I did). Loyal listeners will be aware that I ended up studying the production of Spartacus (1960), the historical film based on the famous slave revolt against Rome. As the titular hero, but more importantly as the producer of this film, Douglas played a key role in shaping the representation of the rebellious gladiator.
Indeed, it was quite an accomplishment that this movie made it to the screen at all, as film star/producer Yul Brynner was also championing a Spartacus project at the same time. On top of this rivalry, Douglas’ project was plagued with personality clashes and squabbles about the overall vision for the film. This led to constant changes to the script, and Douglas did little to contain this, earning the nickname ‘General Mixmaster’ on set.
Douglas in costume on set talking to his young, and not particularly well-known, director Stanley Kubrick. The men had worked together previously on Paths of Glory, but the tensions over Spartacus would cause a rift to open between them. Image courtesy of https://www.rapportoconfidenziale.org/?p=36320
However, it is undeniable that Douglas’ drive is one of the most important factors that led to the completion and success of this film in 1960.
The movie is largely remembered these days for the iconic ‘I’m Spartacus’ scene and its’ status as the film that finally broke the blacklist (in America at least). The real story about the breaking of the blacklist is a little more complicated, which you can read about here.
During this dark time in America, screenwriters were some of the only professionals in this environment who could potentially evade the restrictions placed on their employment. One such blacklistee, Dalton Trumbo, had been hired by Bryna (Douglas’ production company). Trumbo had been working tirelessly to see his name restored to the credits by the time he started writing the Spartacus script. Douglas probably did not intend to grant this desire during the early days, but he had changed his mind by the time of the premiere.
Kirk Douglas spent hours trying to get his scene on the cross just right. Whilst he may have been one of the causes of confusion on set, no one could question his dedication to Spartacus. Image courtesy of https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20161208_02615140
There were a variety of external pressures that went into this decision (cough cough Otto Preminger), and we shouldn’t imagine that after Spartacus, the blacklist vanished. Really, this was a sign that change was ahead. The blacklist lingered painfully into the 1960s, but the rebel gladiator had once again struck a blow for freedom.
Although there’s a lot more to the end of the blacklist than this one film, Douglas does indeed deserve a large share of the credit for making what was a bold decision for the time, and one that could have had unfortunate consequences for himself, Bryna Productions or Universal-International.
Farewell, Kirk Douglas, you charismatic egomaniac. Like Spartacus, you will not be soon forgotten.
It can be quite insulting to be told to ‘talk to the hand’ and, for the Romans, it would seem that being told to ‘talk to the tree’ is just as problematic. In this episode, we explore the tail end of 459 BCE and enter 458 BCE. It’s fair to say that some mud is being flung between Rome and her neighbours…
Episode 101 – Talk to the Tree
The Trouble with Murder…
Livy and Dr Rad have some excellent details to offer about the ongoing and troubling ambiguity surrounding the plebeian push for the ‘the law about the laws’. This ongoing issues between patrician interests and the tribunes fighting for greater transparency is soon waylaid, however, by concerns pertaining to the recent accusation of murder! Dr Rad delves into the murky narrative and Livy’s account of the affair.
New Year, Same Tribunes
Intrigues and law cases regarding potentially spurious accusations of murder give way to new elections and we find ourselves in c. 458 BCE. Both Verginius and Volscius make it back it into the tribuneship!
Listen out for Dr G forgetting Volscius (awkward for everyone) and temporarily being unable to read a map (to clarify, the Sabines and the Aequians are both East of Rome, North and South respectively).
Trouble in the South
It isn’t long before Rome learns of Aequian incursions into Tusculum, which is a huge surprise given the peace treaty concluded between Rome and the Aequians just the year before. Listen in to find out how:
Rome reacts to threats from the south
the fetiales get involved
and oak trees take on an important cameo role
While Dionysius of Halicarnassus gets swept up in the military narrative, Livy seeks to balance the challenges the Rome faces externally and internally…
Our Players
459 BCE
Consuls
Q. Fabius M. f. K. Vibulanus
L. Cornelius Ser. f. P. n. Maluginensis Uritinus
Prefect of the City
Lucius Lucretius (Tricipitinus)
Tribunes
Aulus Verginius
Marcus Volscius Fictor (maybe a tribune)
Quaestors
Aulus Cornelius
Quintus Servilius (Structus Priscus?)
Patrician
Kaeso Quinctius
458 BCE
Consuls
C. Nautius Sp. f. Sp. n. Rutilus – cos II
L. Minucius P. f. M. n Esquilinus Augurinus
Prefect of the City
Q. Fabius Vibulanus
Tribunes
Aulus Verginius
Marcus Volscius Fictor
Quaestor
M. Valerius M’. f. Volusi Maximus
T. Quintius Capitolinus Barbatus
Roman Embassy
Q. Fabius Vibulanus (also Prefect of the City)
P. Volumnius Amintinus Gallus
A. Postumius Albus Regillensis
Aequian Leader
Cloelius Gracchus
Claude Lorrain 1682 Ascanius Shooting the Stag of Sylvia, chosen for its artful arrangement of trees, which are quite pertinent to this episode. The story of Ascanius we’ll save for another time.
Additional sounds in this episode: BBC and WolframTones
Episode 100 – The Consulship
Dec 19, 2019
We’ve reached a huge milestone! One hundred episodes is quite something and we’re super chuffed to have made it this far. To celebrate we’ve put together a very special episode for you on the consulship.
Episode 100 – The Consulship
While our narrative history of Rome is still very much in the early republic, the consul is a position that many aficionados of ancient Rome are familiar with. But how much do we know about the consul especially in the early years of the republic? We’re here to sift through the evidence!
After the Kings
After the expulsion of the Tarquins, Rome is left facing a crisis of governance. How best to restructure the state in the wake of the collapse of monarchy?
The Romans innovative solution was to divide the powers of the rex between two men, thereby saving the populace from the tyranny of a sole ruler. But to claim that the Romans came to this decision cleanly, and with a clarity of what this would really look like, is to miss the fascinating complexities of the way the role developed over time.
What Makes a Consul?
In this special episode we’ll trace the some of the key features of the consulship and explore what the position entailed in the early republic, the late republic, and the early empire. There’s plenty to enjoy here including:
a return to the relationship between magistracies and assemblies;
the role of consuls in war;
and the consuls’ relationship with the gods.
Alexandre Jacovleff ‘Ancient Roman Senators’ illustration for The General History Edited by Satyricon (1911)
Sources
Interested in learning more about the consulship? These are the major sources we consulted in preparation for this episode and we definitely recommend them for getting a handle on the subject!
Beck, H., Duplá, A., Jehne, M., & Pino Polo, F. 2011. ‘The republic and its highest office: some introductory remarks on the Roman consulate’ in Beck, H., Duplá, A., Jehne, M., Pina Polo, F. (eds) Consuls and Res Publica: Holding High Office in the Roman Republic (Cambridge University Press), 1-15.
‘Consul’ in Pauly’s Realencyclopadie der classischen Altumsumswissenschaft Band IV, 1, col. 1112-1138 (1900).
Eck, W. 2019. ‘Suffect consul‘ in Cancik, H., Schneider, H., Salazar, C. F. (eds) Brill’s New Pauly (Last accessed 29/9/2019)
Drogula, F. K. 2015. Commanders and Command in the Roman Republic and Early Empire (University of North Carolina Press)
Gizewski, C. 2019. ‘Consul(es)’ in Cancik, H., Schneider, H., Salazar, C. F. (eds) Brill’s New Pauly (Last accessed 29/9/2019)
Hölkeskamp, K. 2011. ‘The Roman republic as theatre of power: the consuls as leading actors’ in Beck, H., Duplá, A., Jehne, M., Pina Polo, F. (eds) Consuls and Res Publica: Holding High Office in the Roman Republic (Cambridge University Press), 161-181.
Hurlet, F. 2011. ‘Consulship and consuls under Augustus’ in Beck, H., Duplá, A., Jehne, M., Pina Polo, F. (eds) Consuls and Res Publica: Holding High Office in the Roman Republic (Cambridge University Press), 319-35.
Scullard, H. H. 1982. From the Gracchi to Nero (Routledge, London)
Smith, C. 2011. ‘The magistrates of the early Republic’, in Beck, H., Duplá, A., Jehne, M., Pina Polo, F. (eds) Consuls and Res Publica: Holding High Office in the Roman Republic (Cambridge University Press), 19-40.
Episode 99 – Tusculum and Antium
Nov 28, 2019
It is c. 459 BCE and Rome faces the consequences of the Capitol having been seized and a consul killed in the previous year. The challenges come on two fronts: Tusculum and Antium.
Episode 99 – Tusculum and Antium
Consuls
Quintus Fabius M. f. K. n. Vibulanus cos. III
Lucius Cornelius Ser. f. P. n. Maluginensus Uritnus
Trouble at the Margins
The Latins and Hernicians (Rome’s allies) come to Rome to report that the Volscians and the Aequians are still causing trouble at the edges of allied territory. Rome sends some troops to Antium.
The Aequians surprise attack Rome’s friend Tusculum. According to Dionysius this involves enslaving many of the women but leaving many of the men untouched. The Romans are pretty upset by this turn of events and throw themselves into action.
These tussles lead to military actions in Algidum and Ecetra, both of which are near the territory of the Aequians and the latter is described by Dionysius as the “most prominent city of the Volscian nation” (Dion. Hal. Ant. Rom. 10.21.3).
How Do You Solve a Problem Like Antium?
Rome has been raiding Antium for the past few years and recently converted the city into a Roman colony. None of these measures can be considered wholly successful.
As news of the seizure of Rome’s Capitol reaches south, it seems like a good time to revolt. This is spearheaded by the Volscians, which makes perfect sense as Antium is part of their historical sphere of influence.
Livy and Dionysius of Haliarnassus disagree on a range of details about how this conflict unfolds so it’s fair to say that we’re less than impressed with our narrative sources right now! Nevertheless, what they do tell us is very interesting:
Livy has Rome heading in with a force made up of Romans and allies and devastating the Volscian camp by surprising them.
Dionysius offers us a tale of Rome turning Antium into a camp by surrounding it with palisades!
Who’s Doing The Fighting Anyway?
Despite Rome facing a war on two fronts this year, Livy suggests that when the forces are drawn up, they are mostly comprised on allied troops, with only a third of the manpower offered by Rome herself. Is this a sign of Rome’s growing hegemony over her immediate neighbours?
Join us for some very conflicting accounts from Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus as we delve into the complicated relationships between the Romans, Volscians, Aequians, Tusculans, Latins, and Hernicians!
P.S. Be on the listen for our podcat Hamish who makes a guest appearance!
An artistic impression of what early Republican soliders may have looked like (right). If you know the artist, please let us know so we can credit them appropriately.
Our Sources:
Dr G is reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 10.20-21
Dr R is reading Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.22-24
Selected Secondary Sources:
Broughton, T. R. S. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic,Volume I (American Philological Association)
Lomas, K. 2017. The Rise of Rome: from the Iron Age to the Punic Wars(1000-264 BC) (Profile Books)
Sound Credits:
Additional sounds were provided by:
Fesliyan Studios
Pond5
*Special Episode* What Does Your Toga Say About You?
Nov 07, 2019
Dr Amy Place from the University of Leicester sits down with Dr Rad to discuss the humble Roman toga, fashion and social identity, and everyday life in late imperial Roman North Africa!
On a recent tour to Australia, Place presented a paper for the SPQR Roman History Forum at Macquarie University on the representation of fashions in Late Roman North Africa. The Partial Historians we lucky enough to grab the chance to chat.
*Special Episode* – What Does Your Toga Say About You?
Late Roman North Africa is a time period and an area that is understudied, but just as fascinating as Italy. Place is particularly interested in how clothing is represented and how it was used to express social identity.
Dominus Julius Mosaic from Carthage, Bardo Museum. Copyright credit: Sean Leatherbury/Manar al-Athar
When are we talking?
Dr Place’s research focuses on 200-550 CE. The late Roman empire is full of intrigue and was a time of great change. While there was some stability under the emperor Septimius Severus, who ruled from 193-211 CE, with his death and the succession of his son Caracalla, a century of turmoil began.
Amidst the political chaos that characterised much of this century, the Christians rose in prominence. By the beginning of the fourth century, Rome would have its first Christian emperor, Constantine I. This emerging system would rapidly became established as the exclusive religion of the empire as Rome entered the fifth century.
Where are we talking?
The focus of Place’s research has been the coastal regions of North Africa, examining an area that spans Namibia to Morocco. Parts of North Africa began to be acquired by Rome in the 2nd century BCE with the end of the Third Punic War. Roman influence continued to expand in this region throughout the late Republic and into the Empire.
What is the source material like for fashion and togas?
Place’s research is based in part on literary sources but is supplemented with mosaics. She highlights the difficulties that come with using textual evidence to understand something that was visual. The terms used in the sources are not always easily matched to a surviving representation and it is extremely rare for any actual samples of clothing to survive to the modern day.
Matron at her Toilette Mosaic from Sidi Ghrib, Bardo. Copyright credit: Sean Leatherbury/Manar al-Athar.
How did people in North Africa use clothing to construct and express their identity?
Place’s research focuses on the impact that the growth of Christianity had on dress and identity. A particularly important author was Tertullian, a Christian writer who made some very vocal criticism of female dress in this region.
Although Roman writers had been critical of women dressing too provocatively before the advent of Christianity, for Tertullian there was an extra moral imperative for women to dress modestly and plainly. Austerity was a means of advertising one’s commitment to the new religion, most especially if one was wealthy enough to have a choice.
We see a stark contrast between words and deeds, however, when we consider the mosaics from the region. As Place notes, these don’t often show people have taken Tertullian’s advice – quite the opposite!
Tune in to hear all Place’s insights into the local trends for women and men and the place of the toga.
Tomb cover for Victoria, originally from Tabarka, now in the Bardo. Copyright credit: Sean Leatherbury/Manar al-Athar.
Interested in learning more about this fascinating topic? You can consider more of Dr Amy Place’s work at Academia.edu
Episode 98 – Cincinnatus, Suffect Consul
Oct 17, 2019
It’s c. 460 BCE and this hectic year in Roman history continues! In this episode we consider Rome in the wake of the sneak attack on the Capitol by Herdonius’ disaffected Sabines. During the challenges of wrestling control back, the Romans lose one of their own. The consul Publius Valerius Pubicola falls in battle. This is a tragic loss and opens the way for Lucius Cincinnatus to return to the narrative.
Episode 98 – Cincinnatus, Suffect Consul
Looking to catch up on the narrative before diving into this episode? You can find out more about the earlier events of this year here.
Who’s Who
Consuls
Publius Valerius P. f. Volusi n. Publicola (cos II)
Gaius Claudius Ap. f. M. n. Inrigillensis (or Regillensis) Sabinus
Suffect Consul
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus
Tribune of the Plebs
Aulus Verginius
Marcus Volscius Fictor
A Man of the Land
There’s nothing quite like a man who farms. For fans of men of the land, Cincinnatus is here for you. We explore the important symbolism of Cincinnatus working the land and his reaction to learning about his election as suffect consul.
A New Political Strategy
Cincinnatus takes the opportunity to lead in a new way. With much rhetorical flourish, our new consul lays forth a plan that spells trouble for the plebeians and the ambitions of the tribunes. We dig into the discrepancies between our sources – Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus have different takes on the essential narrative. This is very revealing in terms of thinking about the aims of our written sources for this period.
Things to Look Forward To
a taking of auspices
a desire for a dictator
some senatorial love for our man Cincinnatus
Alexandre Cabanel 1843. Cincinnatus receiving the ambassadors of Rome. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons
Our Sources
Primary sources
Dr G is reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 10.17-19
Dr R is reading Livy 3.19.1-3
Secondary sources
Broughton, T. R. S. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic, Volume I (American Philological Association)
Eck, W. (Colonge) ‘Suffect Consul’ Brill’s New Pauly, Cancik, H. Schneider, H., Salazar, C. F. (eds.), accessed online 29-9-2019
Lomas, K. 2017. The Rise of Rome: from the Iron Age to the Punic Wars (1000-264 BC) (Profile Books)
Müller, C. (Bochum) ‘Q. Cincinnatus, L.’ Brill’s New Pauly, Cancik, H. Schneider, H., Salazar, C. F. (eds.), accessed online 29-9-2019
*Special Episode* – The Thread of Women’s Representation
Oct 04, 2019
In this special episode, we’re joined by Liz Smith, who has recently completed her doctoral research of the representation of women’s dress in statuary at Macquarie University. Together we’ll trace the threads of evidence for women’s attire in the Roman world.
The Thread of Women’s Representation with Liz Smith
Liz’s research includes the fashion of women’s dress in ancient representations in order to investigate what we can learn about the representation of women. This means considering how representations of women in statuary were often mediated by a male perspective and asking what this might reveal about women’s lived experience.
The Importance of Material Evidence
A consideration of material evidence, especially when combined with inscriptions offers an alternative to the literary sources for thinking about women and daily life in the ancient world. Our evidence in this episode dates from the third century CE, which means we’re thinking about a Rome embroiled in empire and imperial rule.
In this episode we’ll be considering the head coverings on statues in the round and sepulchral depictions of women. We explore the implications of topics such as:
drapery in statues and reliefs
the colour of statuary
the stola
the palla
dress as status
Epiktesis
Epiktesis outlives her family. We consider the monument she dedicates to her husband, her children, and herself. Liz takes us through the pose adopted by Epiktesis – the Large Herculaneum Woman Type – and its implications.
The husband remains unnamed in this relief as do the children. This in itself is somewhat unusual but this evidence goes to the next level when we consider that the children are represented as divinities!
With Epiktesis herself depicted in a very modest, unrevealing style and her daughter assuming the quite revealing Bathing Aphrodite Type, this representation has a lot to offer in terms of thinking about the meaning conveyed by poses and attire.
Liz explains how size plays a role in the representation of family in this monument and we consider what this might have suggested to an ancient viewer. We also consider the unique aspects of this piece in terms of its arrangement of the figures and their poses.
Aurelia Eutychia “I am Prosperous” c. 250s CE
We consider the sarcophagus dedicated by Aurelia to herself and her husband Marcus Aurelius Marino which can still be seen today in Ferrara. Liz takes us through the significance of the statuesque features of this artefact.
Social status is a particular feature at play in all these representations and the capacity of Aurelia to have for a sarcophagus where the figures display a range of statuesque features tells us a lot about how she wanted to be understood by her community.
Sarcophagus dedicated by Aurelia Eutychia to herself and her husband Marcus Aurelius Marino. Side panel.
Liz explores the implications of Aurelia’s personal representation of herself. We discuss the potential implications of being veiled versus not being veiled.
Here’s the inscription found on the sarcophagus:
Aurelia Eutychia built this sarcophagus while alive for herself and her husband Marcus Aurelius Marino a veteran of Syrian lineage at the behest of the patron and her most dutiful husband with whom she lived for forty-three years by order of the patron out of his own funds. If someone after the death of the both opens it they will deposit a thousand sesterces to the tax authorities.
Translation ~ Liz Smith
Join us for a lively exploration of women’s representation through statuary and inscription!
Addendum: In exciting news, in the time between our chat with Liz and the release of this episode, we can confirm that Liz has passed her doctoral examination and joins us as a full academic. Congratulations Dr Liz Smith!
Edit: Since conducting this interview, further analysis of the sarcophagus dedicated by Aurelia has revealed the insight that Aurelia would have been Marcus Aurelius Marino’s enslaved property, before he freed and married her. As his freedwoman, Aurelia would have been bound by custom and law to respect Marcus and give him services (operae), even after her manumission. Accordingly, it is all the more interesting that Aurelia represented herself as an equal partner to her husband through the statuesque elements we see on the front and lateral sides.
We return to our narrative of Rome’s history of its foundation with some surprising Sabines. It’s still 460 BCE , which is an indication of just how complicated Rome’s history is becoming when we read our sources.
Both Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are very focused on the ongoing conflict between the Roman elites and the emerging claims to power from the plebeians.
We wouldn’t would to give too many spoilers away, but while the Romans are busy trying to figure out what their internal politics will look like, there might just be an enemy on the horizon!
Episode 97 – Surprising Sabines
You can catch up on the earlier action of this year here.
Just Your Everyday Ongoing Political Conflict
Some of the complications in the City stem from the young patricians who have become a force to be reckoned with, terrorising plebeians. The tribunes have been lobbying for changes that would make Roman law transparent but so far there’s been no real movement on the issue. There are a number of things to consider, such as:
connections between this conflict and the First Succession;
the use of annual levies by the patricians as a means of controlling the plebeians;
and the role of local warfare in preventing plebeians from engaging fully in Rome’s politics.
Surprise, Surprise, it’s the Sabines!
Just when the Romans are caught up in their own problems, the Sabine Appius Herdonius turns up with a goodly number of supporters and seizes the Capitol. Our sources disagree on just how large Herdonius’ force is or who is part of it, but, regardless of the figures and identities, the narrative follows the same trajectory – infiltration!
We discuss the various strategies credited to Herdonius for entering the city and his apparent aims in making such a bold move. Suffice it to say, word of Rome’s internal unrest has spread…
Sabine Attack as a Microcosm of Rome’s Internal Trouble
Needless to say, the Romans are less than pleased to have an intruder in the heart of the City. Like a kicked beehive, the citizens rally to defend themselves! It’s not long though before this chaos turns into competing calls to arms. The consuls and tribunes seize upon the moment to offer differing opinions about the situation and urging the citizen body to divergent actions.
Hear how the tensions rise and the Romans respond to the Sabine threat in this episode!
Our Main Players
Consuls
Publius Valerius P. f. Volusi n. Publicola (cos. II)
Gaius Claudius Ap. f. M. n. Inrigillensis (or Regillensis) Sabinus
Tribunes
Aulus Verginius
Marcus Volscius Fictor
Sabines
Appius Herdonius
Tusculans
Lucius Mamilius
Our Sources
Livy Ab Urbe Condita 3.15-18
Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 9.14-16
Topography of the ancient Capitol, according to the arbitrary reconstitution of Nardini, in The Roman Capitol in Ancient and Modern Times (1906). Source: Wikimedia Commons
At the Movies – Once Upon a Time in Hollywood
Sep 05, 2019
Warning! This post and episode contain huge spoilers.
Dr G and Dr Rad always enjoy a trip to the movies, as you tell from our past forays in classics like Spartacus,Gladiator, and the contemporary farce Hail, Caesar! We are planning to record more special episodes when we see a historical flick or television series that sparks our interest. This week we saw Tarantino’s latest offering, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood (2019).
Bonus Episode – Once Upon a Time in Hollywood The audio is a little variable on this one, but we decided to keep at much as possible rather than cut. Equipment checking is a high priority before our next recording session.
Did we mention the spoilers? They are coming…
The two main characters in this film (Rick Dalton, played by Leonardo DiCaprio, and Cliff Booth, played by Brad Pitt) are fictional, but the backdrop to their story is historical. Whilst occasionally flashing back to earlier points, the majority of the film takes place in Hollywood, 1969. 2019 marks the fifty-year anniversary, so the release is timely. This was a pivotal year for America in many ways. The protest movement against the Vietnam War reached new heights in the wake of the Tet Offensive in 1968, not only in terms of the numbers who attended protests such as Vietnam Moratorium Day, but also with the trial of the Chicago Eight for demonstrations during the August 1968 Democratic National Convention. This was also the year that the assassin of Martin Luther King Jr was captured and tried, and the Black Panthers were named as enemies of the state by the FBI for being a communist organisation. These are not the events that Tarantino focuses on.
What is Hollywood Anyway?
Dalton is an actor trying to keep his career afloat and Booth is his stuntman, BFF and all-round handyman. The Hollywood that they used to know is disappearing. For decades, the film industry had been controlled by the major studios (such as MGM, Paramount, Warner Bros) and each movie was subject to strict censorship rules. By 1969, the studios were no longer as dominant and the Production Code had been abandoned, opening the door for a wider range of artists and film subjects. The Graduate (1967) would have been unthinkable at the beginning of the decade and in 1969 Dennis Hopper’s ground-breaking, counter-cultural classic, Easy Rider, would be released.
Even so, Hollywood was about to be rocked by something more earth-shattering than a progressive movie. In August 1969, Charles Manson decided that it was time for his followers to unleash the race war that he had dubbed ‘Helter Skelter’ after the Beatles song from the 1968 White Album. This would lead to the grisly Tate and La Bianca murders. The crimes committed by the Manson Family had many implications, but it is the build-up to these events that Tarantino traces as Dalton and Booth cruise through Hollywood.
Hollywood with a Twist
Just as the audience is preparing to see Sharon Tate and her house guests get brutally murdered by Manson’s drug-addled followers, Tarantino turns audience expectations on their head. Dalton and Booth, who live next door to Tate and Polanski, are attacked by the Family and it is the latter who suffer a gruesome end. This is not the first time that Tarantino has ventured down this road with historical fare. Django Unchained (2013) and Inglorious Basterds (2009) both play with historical reality. Is it in the interest of providing his audience with a sense of catharsis? What are the implications of counterfactual history – of exploring the ‘What ifs?’ of history? This may seem harmless and perhaps beneficial; can exploring what didn’t happen help to shed fresh light on what did happen?
Respected historians such as Niall Ferguson have trodden down this path, but others such as Richard J. Evans have emphatically refuted the value of “parlour games” that seem to lament ‘if only’, rather than ask ‘what-if?’ (Hatherley, 2014). Do these issues apply to historical films, which obviously aim to entertain? Is the silver screen a suitable place for such games, or does the wider audiences of a feature film make counterfactuals more dangerous? This is history at its most controversial.
Join the Doctors as they explore the ins and outs of the 60s, hippies and history.
For those interested in learning more about Hollywood in the Manson era, we cannot recommend ‘You Must Remember This’ enough. Host Karina Longworth has produced a 12-part series exploring Charles Manson, the Family and Hollywood in the late 1960s.
If you are more of a true crime buff, you may be interested in checking out the Last Podcast on the Left (hosted by Ben Kissel, Marcus Parks and Henry Zebrowski) and their series on Charles Manson (Starting at Episode 147). These guys have a conversational, hilarious podcast that is also exceptionally well-researched.
And finally, if you’re just loving all things 1969, check out Parcast Presents the ‘Summer of ‘69’ series, which features a number of episodes on Manson, the Manson Girls BUT also other fascinating tales from this pivotal year.
*Special Episode* – Barbarians with Dr Rhiannon Evans
Aug 29, 2019
Dr Radness travelled to Melbourne recently and met with the fantastic and erudite Dr Rhiannon Evans from La Trobe. Dr Evans is one of the famous voices on the Emperors of Romepodcast. In this special episode, Dr Rad and Dr Evans explore barbarians!
*Special Episode* – Barbarians with Dr Rhiannon Evans
Tune in to learn more about how the Romans thought about the peoples they came into contact with.
What makes a Barbarian?
Connotations have a very important place when thinking about barbarians. Our modern usage also influences how we think of the category. So the first order of business is a consideration of etymology and to consider who the Romans are applying the term to and why.
There are a range of factors to consider when turning to the Roman use of the term. Up for discussion:
who cops the designation of barbarian from the Roman perspective
what makes someone more and less barbarous
just what is happening on the other side of the Rhine
and some of the problems with our source materials – written versus archaeological
Julius Caesar’s Barbarians
There’s nothing quite like expansion to bring a Roman into contact with barbarians. Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars detail his campaigns. Reading the source closely provide some clues as to:
the divisions between the peoples
the Roman criticism of the role of writing and speaking amongst non-Roman peoples
maybe what’s not happening (Roman victory)
and differences in attitude to land use
Implications of the Past on the Present
The concept of barbarian may emerge from an ancient past, but it continues to have relevance today. The idea of who belongs and who is considered an outsider, and the concept of the Other, are part of an ongoing engagement with how people navigate their relationships with strangers.
The conversation weaves through the dangers of Caesar’s description of the Germani and touches upon Claudius’ relationship with the Gauls, both of which have modern echoes that Dr R and Evans explore.
Join us for all this and more!
I, Dr G, sadly lament my absence from this episode – but having done the write up for this episode, I can assure you it is good!
Henri Paul Motte 1886. Vercingetorix surrenders to Caesar. Image courtesy of: Wikimedia Commons.
We love this version of the chief of the Arverni surrendering to Caesar for Motte’s decision to centre the composition on Vercingetorix. The spectre of Caesar remains, but he is a distant haze of red surrounded by soldiers and defences. Vercingetorix is poised and still holding his sword.
Episode 96 – Letters and Rumours
Aug 06, 2019
The conflict between patricians and plebeians continues apace as we explore the political complexities of 460 BCE. Much like a Jane Austen novel, letters and rumours abound in the fair city of Rome…
Episode 96 – Letters and Rumours
According to the annalist tradition, debate continues to rage about the proposal for clarity around laws and the idea of equality before the law. This leads to an unusual situation: the tribunes from the previous year return to continue pushing for these changes. Livy notes that the tribunes are riding on a high after ensuring the recent demise of Caeso Quinctius. But this also means that the incoming consuls are dealing with tribunes who seem be becoming entrenched…
Strategies for Violence?
We saw in the previous episode that there seems to be a difference between how the older patricians go about politics—through mechanisms such as magistracies and the senate—and how the younger patricians seek to make plays, through public violence and intimidation. Nevertheless, it seems as though the younger ones might just have hit upon a new approach which Dr Rad explores through Livy’s account.
Letters and Rumours Abound…
Perhaps as a response to the violence in the City, the tribunes hit upon a new approach to push for changes. And before you know it, secret letters are being delivered to the tribunes while they’re in the forum! There are a few implications that arise because of this and more than a little drama…
Dr G considers the narrative provided by Dionysius of Halicarnassus which leads into some intense set-piece speeches from Aulus Verginius and Gaius Claudius.
Join us for an episode full of exciting turns, political jousting, letters and rumours, and maybe even…conspiracy!
Our Players
Consuls
Publius Valerius P. f. Volusi n. Publicola (cos. II)
Gaius Claudius Ap. f. M. n. Inrigillensis (or Regillensis) Sabinus
Tribunes
Aulus Verginius
Marcus Volscius Fictor
Patricians
Caeso Quinctius
Giovanni Battista Piranesi 1756. Map of the Forum Romanum / Courtesy of: Wikimedia Commons. Although a much later vision of Rome than what we are exploring in this episode, nevertheless, Piranesi conjures up the Forma Urbis Romae project with this elegant etching which includes the forum, the site of much of the action.
The complex relationship between the patricians and plebeians is central to our appreciation of the 460s BCE. In this episode we’ll get to consider the complexities first hand with the entrance of Caeso Quinctius (remember this name, he’s going places!).
We jump back into the narrative history of c. 461 BCE with our guides of the moment, Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Both are writing long after these events, which means that their accounts leave a lot to be desired at times. Nevertheless, both are interested in presenting a narrative on the theme of power. How is it distributed? Who has it and who doesn’t? And what are the mechanisms of political power in this system of armies, consuls, patricians, and plebeians?
Young Versus Old?
Livy makes mention of the some generational differences in attitude of the elder patricians and their scions. These simmering tensions influence the way politics plays out in the forum. Dionysius is more interested in discoursing upon the variety of patrician attitudes towards the tribunes, including trying to undermine their legitimacy by noting that they have no connection to the gods. It’s at this point that the young patricians start to emerge with a reputation for public violence…
Enter Caeso Quinctius
Young, handsome, dangerous, and patrician – he not only has a reputation for words, but he seems like the kinda man who’d back himself in a fight. As a ringleader amongst the young patricians, Quinctius has earned himself a bit of a reputation. Things start to get rough for this youthful specimen of Roman masculinity when Aulus Verginius, tribune of the plebs, seeks to bring charges against him…
Our Key Players
Consuls
Publius Volumnius M. f. M. n. Amintinus Gallus (pat.)
Servius Sulpicius – f. Ser. n. Camerinus Cornutus (pat.)
Tribune of the Plebs
Aulus Verginius
Marcus Volscius
Patricians
Caeso Quinctius
Lucius Quinctius “Cincinnatus”
Further reading
Lintott, A. W. 1970. ‘The Traditions of Violence in the Annals of the Early Roman Republic’ Historia: Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte 19.1.12-29
Henryk Siemiradzki c. 1880s A Dangerous Game. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons Although considered to depict a mythological scene, this painting hints at the undercurrent of violence inherent in this episode as well as suggesting the generational factors at play.
Episode 94 – Flesh Rains Down Upon Thee
Jun 06, 2019
Episode 94 – Flesh Rains Down Upon Thee
We return to Rome’s narrative from the founding of City. The year c. 462 BCE ends on a high note with the consuls both gathering honours for their military exploits. L. Lucretius Tricipitinus is awarded a triumph for his successes against the Aequii while T. Veturius Geminus scores an ovatio for his part against the Volscii. As for the title of this episode—’Flesh Rains Down Upon Thee’— well, we wouldn’t want to spoil it, but let’s just say it’s best to keep your ears alert for prodigies!
C. 461 BCE is a big year for Rome in many respects and we’ll be examining it in depth over a couple of episodes. Here are our main players:
The Consuls
Publius Volumnius M. f. M. n. Amintinus Gallus (patrician)
Servius Sulpicius – f. Ser. n. Camerinus Cornutus (patrician)
Prefect of the City
Quintus Fabius
Tribune of the Plebs
Gaius Terentius (Terentilius?) Harsa
Aulus Verginius
Restrictions on consular power?
One of the big subjects that comes into play is the extent of imperium held by the consuls. We start to get inklings in both Livy and Dionysius’ accounts that something is not quite right in Rome. The tribunes, in particular, are not satisfied with the status quo.
One of the difficulties lies in the nature of the populace, what do our sources mean by the populace and why is it so challenging to understand them in a coherent way?
Beyond the murky and inconsistent character of the populace is the nebulous ideas that the tribunes are raising which include a need for equality of rights and equality of speech. Listen in as we explore the question of what is politically afoot in Rome at this time.
A Codification of the laws…
The conversation between the senate and the tribunes is tense, but it’s clear that we’re inching closer to a law code. The tribunes (and thus the populace) are calling for transparency, the senate is resisting, and then the heavens themselves open.
‘A day in ancient Rome; being a revision of Lohr’s “Aus dem alten Rom”, with numerous illustrations’, by Edgar S. Shumway (1885) ~ Wikimedia Commons From left to right: the Tiber, the Temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, and the emporium
*Special Episode* – Totalus Rankium and the Partial Historians on Tiberius
May 15, 2019
We return to the fray with the most excellent Rob and Jaime to tackle Dr Radness’ favourite emperor. How will Tiberius fare against the criteria of Totalus Rankium? We’re about to find out!
How great is Tiberius? Tune in to find out!
How are we judging Tiberius?
Oooo better not to ask me, Dr G, author of this post, because I’m too much of an Augustan fan-girl to answer this question. Okay, okay, here’s how it will work. We’ll discuss Tiberius’ life and career and at the end of the conversation we’ll apply the Totalus Rankium system to form a holistic judgement of the imperial man himself.
Here are the categories:
Fights Maximus – an emperor’s fighting capacity
Opprobrium Crazium – their average level of insanity / taking things just too far
Succesus Ultimus – how successful were they (all things considered)?
Image Facius – were they attractive? Yes, this is the sexy category
An Origin Story
Like many people, Tiberius rises from humble beginnings. We’ll explore the nature of his childhood and consider how this may have influenced his character and disposition (a very Suetonian approach if we do say so ourselves). We’re on the search for clues that may help us better understand the complex influences on his life.
Tiberius Imperator
Some argue that Tiberius is the first emperor of Rome because he is the first to ‘inherit’ the legal privileges and concessions that secured Augustus’ rule. This is important as it reveals the tenuous nature of the imperial project in these early stages. The differences between Augustus and Tiberius are revealed the moment Tiberius becomes emperor.
Part of the challenge when examining his rule is the underlying consideration: what makes a good emperor?
We’ll consider some of Tiberius’ achievements and also some of the more controversial aspects of his rule in this collaborative episode. You just never know what controversy is in the wind when we’re talking about Tiberius!
Obverse: TI[berivs] CAESAR DIVI AVG[vsti] F[ilivs] AVGVSTS (Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus), laureate head right, parallel ribbons Reverse: PONTIF[ex] MAXIM[us], Livia (as Pax) seated right, feet on footstool, holding sceptre and branch; ornate legs, one line below. Catalogue: RIC I 30; Lyon 154; RSC 16a. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons
Episode 93 - Divide and Conquer
Apr 21, 2019
Rome emerges from the year of pestilence and moves straight on to divide and conquer. While this seems implausible, we’re still navigating the tricky gaps in our annalist historians – uncertainty is the name of the historical game at this stage. Welcome to c. 462 BCE!
The pestilence ensured the death of both consuls of c. 463 BCE so it’s only after a series of interreges that we stumble into the new consular year. Join as we explore all c. 462 BCE has to offer including:
some of the factors to keep in mind when we encounter plague narratives
the increasing divergences in the narratives of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus
the battle tactics designed to draw armies away from their chosen theatre of war
Episode 93 – Divide and Conquer
Bandits, Aequians, or Volscii?
One of the big discrepancies we consider this episode is just who is the enemy? A raiding force causes trouble outside Rome, but who are they exactly? Livy and Dionysius offer different interpretations of the evidence leaving us a central puzzle to resolve concerning battle tactics and probabilities.
Trouble in (Hernican) Paradise
While Rome’s been down and out, the Aequians and Volscii alliance have taken the opportunity to strike! Hernican territory is a great strategic choice, but they are definitely allies with Rome so … we’re here to guide you through all the consequences!
The major players
Consuls of c. 462 BCE
Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus (patrician)
Titus Veturius Geminus Cicurinus (patrician)
Tribune of the plebs
Sextus Titius
The Urban Prefect
Quintus Fabius (Vibulanus) (or Quintus Furius in your Dion. Hal.) consul II (467, 465 BCE)
Scholarly material
Dr G gets more excited about pestilence than perhaps is appropriate but it did lead to some of the work of Northwood:
Northwood, S. J. 2006. ‘Grain Scarcity and Pestilence in the Early Roman Republic: Some Significant Patterns’ in Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies 49.81-92
Source: Costumes of All Nations 1882 by Albert Kretschmer, painters and costumer to the Royal Court Theatre, Berin, and Dr. Carl Rohrbach. Courtesy of: wikimedia commons
*Special Episode* Quo Vadis with the History of the Papacy Podcast
Mar 27, 2019
We are super excited to announce that we sat down recently with Stephen Guerra, the host of the History of the Papacy Podcast to talk all about the classic 1951 sword-and-sandals film Quo Vadis.
This is a three way conversation with a variety of perspectives to enjoy. Stephen offers insights into the representation of Christianity. Dr Rad offers an intimate understanding of Rome in Hollywood cinema. Dr G has an eye for all things Roman politics.
Where are you going?
Quo Vadis is a Latin phrase which translates as ‘Where are you going?’ and connects with the apocryphal story of Peter fleeing crucifixion in Rome. As he is leaving the city, Jesus appears to Peter in a vision. When Peter asks Quo vadis, Jesus confirms he is heading to Rome to be crucified again. The title of film alludes to the connections between ancient Rome and emerging Christian ideas.
This film deserves to be described as epic! From the MGM studio and filmed in technicolor, it ambitiously seeks to combine Roman history under the rule of Nero with a narrative of early Christianity. Although famous now for Peter Ustinov’s engaging performance as the emperor Nero, he was not the big ticket actor drawing audiences when the film was initially released. Bona fide Hollywood star Robert Taylor plays the lead role as the Roman soldier Marcus Vinicius and Deborah Kerr plays Lygia, the central Christian of this story.
Where are we going?
Join us as we explore Quo Vadis from a variety of perspectives and consider things like:
The origins of the film in Henryk Sienkiewicz’s novel
The challenges of bringing this story to the silver screen
Just how epic this film was in terms of sets and design
Roman history on screen and how it shapes understanding
Interpretations of the Christian-Roman conflict and conversion narrative
The reception of the film through time
We send a huge thank you to Stephen for having us as guests on his show and for the editing and post-production work on this episode. This is also a first for us in the sense that Dr Rad and Dr G were also in different locations for this recording. This episode is a big moment for us talking together but not in the same room. We’re crediting the powers of technology for making this project possible!
Special Episode – Quo Vadis with the History of the Papacy PodcastPoster for the 1951 film Quo Vadis / Employee(s) of MGM. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
*Special Episode* Tiberius with the Life of Caesar Podcast
Mar 20, 2019
We’re very excited to bring you a special episode where we sit down with Cam from The Life of Caesar podcast! We’re talking about Tiberius Caesar Divi Augusti filius Augustus or ‘Tibbo’ as he’s affectionately known.
As you know, Tiberius holds a special place in Dr Rad’s heart. The Life of the Caesars duo are in the midst of examining his life and career, so it seemed like a great chance to gather together and thrash out some of the details and perspectives on the man who follows in Augustus’ footsteps.
The Julio-Claudian emperors tend to garner lots of attention in our historical understanding of ancient Rome and for good reason. First, they break away from the republican traditions that had been at the centre of Roman thinking since the expulsion of the kings. And then Augustus’ politics sets the stage for Tiberius’ imperial turn.
In this broad, expansive, special episode we’ll consider some of the challenges Tiberius faces including:
the critical perspective of the historical tradition
the long shadow left by Augustus
aaaannnd those stories about what happened on Capri…
This is a great meeting of Australian podcasters and we’re only sorry that Ray was unable to join us so we could gain the American perspective as well!
*Special Episode* – Tiberius with the Life of Caesar PodcastPortrait of the Roman Emperor Tiberius, Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek. Image Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 92 - The Pestilence of 463 BCE
Mar 12, 2019
We’re jumping back into the narrative. The title might be a bit of a giveaway, yes yes, we’ll be talking about … pestilence! But before we get there we need to consider the circumstances.
Rome has been having lots of problems with their neighbours, particularly the Aequians and we’ve seen a shift in tactics from Aequians engaging in guerilla style raiding to seeking out the Romans in pitched battle. To say that Rome has been vexed by this is an understatement. Livy has offered some portents for the times ahead which, in a narrative history of Rome, can’t be good!
Our Main Players
The Consuls for c. 463 BCE:
Lucius Aebutius Helva
Publius Servilius Priscus
HARK, PLAGUE!
Livy kinds informs us of some dreadful details about a plague that is sweeping through the countryside. We take you through the grisly details from both Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus.
What initially seems confined beyond the city though soon moves within and this means problems for urban citizens, visitors, and the body politic (both figuratively and literally).
AN OPPORTUNITY?
While Romans struggle just to stay alive, the Aequians and the Volscians consolidate their growing friendship of mutual convenience into a straight up alliance. This places Rome in a difficult spot between needing to keep her own allies – the Latins and the Hernicans – appeased as well as the knowledge that their previous irritations have formally combined forces.
COME FOR THE PLAGUE, STAY FOR THE…
…Other excitement afoot!
Things to look forward to in this episode. We’ll consider:
The first acts of the new Aequian-Volscian alliance
The Roman response to their allies’ call for support
The defence systems of the City
The power of divine intervention
Some reasons why Rome doesn’t fall in this moment
And questions and discussion about the role of the interreges
Episode 92 – The Pestilence of 463 BCEThe angel of death striking a door during the plague of Rome. Engraving by Levasseur after J. Delaunay Image credit: Wikimedia Commons and Wellcome Images
*Special Episode* Totalus Rankium and The Partial Historians on Augustus
Feb 20, 2019
In exciting news, we got together recently with the amazing and very hilarious gentleman of Totalus Rankium, Rob and Jaime, to discuss all things Augustus! We love their work on the Roman emperors and thought it would be great fun to see how all our different perspectives on Augustus shaped up in conversation.
The results are in! Enjoy a sparring match of words that goes in all directions. We explore some of the highlights and low-lights of Augustus’ life and career. You can hear all the fruits of our conversation as Dr G tries valiantly to salvage something from the criticism coming from all directions!
Totalus Rankium join The Partial Historians for Augustus!
The controversial politics of Augustus is central to the conversation and we’ll even take a spin on judging Augustus’ career against the categories developed by Totalus Rankium. We really enjoyed this collaboration and stay tuned because we’ll be delving into Tiberius next 🙂
Augustus, Octavius, Thurinus?
Augustus is always a bit of a tricky figure, so let’s back up the truck for just a moment, here are some of the key details of Augustus’ life through his different names.
The first problem is always Roman naming conventions and even these get a run for their money when we come to Augustus. Here’s a brief overview of his names in a timeline:
C. Octavius (Thurinus)
63 BCE, 23rd of September
The son of Atia and C. Octavius. As is customary, they name their son after his father: C. Octavius. Suetonius Aug. 7 reports he is also known as Thurinus because of an ancestral connection with the Thurii region.
Caesar, son of Caesar
44 BCE, post the Ides of March
His adoption by Gaius Julius Caesar leads to the assumption of a new name. According to Appian BC 3.11, he begins to refer to himself as Caesar, son of Caesar – this is a different formulation than usual for adopted children. While Romans may have been expecting him to become known as C. Julius Caesar Octavianus, with a nod to his birth family, he instead takes a radical approach of renaming himself as though he were Caesar’s legitimate natal son rather than simply his grand-nephew adopted by will.
Ancient historians tend to refer to him as Octavian for the period between 44-27 BCE. Octavian is a shortened version of Octavianus and it is a useful distinction to prevent confusion regarding which C. Julius Caesar is under discussion.
Gaius Julius Caesar Divi Filius
42 BCE onwards
Construction begins on the temple to the deified Julius Caesar. This allows our main man to add something a little bit fancy to his name: he’s not just C. Julius Caesar son of Caesar, he is now C. Julius Caesar son of the God (C. Julius Caesar). It’s a bold political move!
Imperator Caesar Divi Filius Augustus
27 BCE, 16th of January
In the wake of the defeat of Antony and Cleopatra in 30 BCE, and the ostensible restoration of the republic, he accepts the honorific ‘Augustus’, proposed to the senate by Munatius Plancus. He’d been using the military title imperator for some time, but his transformation from humble Octavius to Augustus is something of a zenith. He will be known as Augustus for the rest of his life.
Giovannu Battista Tiepolo 1743. Maecenas Presenting the Liberal Arts to Emperor Augustus
Episode 91 – The Furious Romans
Feb 13, 2019
We’re back and as the title for this episode notes, you’re about to tune into the tale of some furious Romans! It is none other than Dr Rad and Dr G tracing the history of Rome from the founding of the city and ooooh boy are we heading back into that sweet Early Roman Republican narrative.
The Big Names
c. 465 BCE
Titus Quintius Capitolinus (cos. III)
Quintus Fabius Vibulanus (cos. II)
c. 464 BCE
Aulus Postumius Albus Regillensis
Spurius (Servius) Furius Medullinus Fusus
We often talk about Broughton and this is a reference to the two volume set The Magistrates of the Roman Republic which is the result of a collaboration between the scholars Broughton and Patterson.
Do the Roman Have Their Own Gods?
It’s a good question. A popular sentiment is that the Romans steal gods much like they take the territory of other people. This is not strictly true, but it is often challenging to identify indigenous deities with confidence and the tendency of Rome to adapt others’ divinities to their own purposes means that there’s potential of amalgamations of gods to take into account as well. As a prelude to the action, Dr G explores some of the details Dionysius of Halicarnassus examines for c. 466 BCE – relating to the dedication of a temple to Dius Fidius on the Quirinal Hill.
The Aequians
The Aequians have developed quite a bad reputation from a Roman perspective and we see this trend continue. Dr Rad considers the Aequians strength as a raiding force, and this leads to a consideration of their military clashes with Rome.
Things to listen out for:
some new military strategies
the differing fortunes of the consuls Fabius and Quintius
all the details of the census
Antium Returns to the Agenda
c. 464 BCE is a troubling year for Rome abroad. The tension with the Aequians continues, but now there is also trouble from the Volscians to consider as well. On top of that, Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus begin to reveal some substantial narrative differences.
These differences include:
the focus of the narrative,
the space given over to the political and diplomatic issues,
and the depiction of the military engagements.
How will Rome fare as the year progresses? Listen in to find out!
Episode 91 – The Furious RomansThomas Cole 1832 A View Near Tivoli (Morning) / Wikimedia Commons.
Although not a historical rendering of the period of Roman history covered in this episode. Cole’s painting evokes the landscape beyond the city of Rome to add extra depth to your imagining of the world the Romans inhabited.
Episode 90 – Spartacus, the Ballet
Jan 16, 2019
We’re turning 90 and it’s time for a special episode on the reception of Spartacus! What better way to do this than to examine the history of Spartacus, the ballet. Dr Rad is our expert on the ground on all things Spartacus and reception. Dr G brings a wild curiosity and a small knowledge of ballet.
So how does a famous freedom fighter like Spartacus end up with his own ballet? We consider the major notes of Spartacus’ story that have come down to us from the ancient material as the first step in tracing his reception.
The Reception of Spartacus Beyond America
The ballet takes us on a journey beyond the reception of Spartacus in America. Kubrick’s seminal 1960 film is based on Howard Fast’s 1951 novel – a Hollywood production based on an American novel sets the scene for a very particular reception of Spartacus. But the ballet couldn’t be more different. The origins of the ballet come from Stalinist Russia.
A Little Context
The communist and socialist connections to Spartacus resonate with ideas such as seeking community amongst the oppressed and fighting for freedom from authoritarian or monarchical rule. Marx, Lenin, and the political movements in Europe in the early twentieth century, position Spartacus as a much relied upon symbol for the freedoms people sought from current leaders.
The Spartakusbund was a Marxist movement during the first World War, although its legacy falls foul of Lenin. While the Spartakiade was the name given to the Soviet Union’s version of the Olympics. Dr Rad explores the dangers of the misinterpreting Spartacus’ story in Stalinist Russia and this leads us squarely to the ballet.
Let’s Get Our Dancing Shoes On
Spartacus («Спартак», Spartak), the 1954 ballet is the creation of Aram Khachaturian. He was born in Georgia, studied at the Conservatorium in Moscow, and went on to composer a variety of film scores. In 1948, Khachaturian found himself on the wrong side of the regime with his music described as “decadent” and “bourgeois”. Spartacus plays a role in Khachaturian’s rehabilitation.
Join us as we explore all the details including the recent production by the Australian Ballet that Dr Rad had the great fortune to see!
Episode 90 – Spartacus, the BalletSpartacus at the Bolshoi in Moscow, October 2013. Image credit: Bengt Nyman via Wikimedia Commons
Episode 89 – A Fabian Abroad
Dec 12, 2018
It’s a brand new edition of the Partial Historians covering the Early Roman Republic™! And as the title ‘A Fabian Abroad’ hints, the Fabians are back in the political scene!
The main players
Consuls for c. 467 BCE
Titus Aemilius Mamercus (cos. II), previously consul in c. 470 BCE
Quintus Fabius Vibulanus
Consuls for c. 466 BCE
Spurius Postumius Albinus Regillensis
Quintus Servilius Priscus (Structus) (cos II), previously consul in c. 468 BCE
Triumvirs for the granting of land… triumviri agro dando
Titus Quintius Capitolinus
Lucius Furius / Publius Furius Medullinus Fusus
Aulus Verginius
There’s nothing we enjoy more than some controversy in the source material and oooo boy does the narrative get hazy with the return of a Fabian back in the scene. We explore some of the challenges with this situation in order to get a better sense of what might be happening in the family history.
It’s Retro Year
The Fabians are not the only blast from the past worth considering in this year, but land reform is back on the agenda. The patricians have a great new plan for land re-distribution. We’ll explore just what the plebeians seem to have thought about this and consider some of the consequences as they play out.
Stay tuned for the appearance of the Roman allies,the Latins and Hernicans!
What’s Going on with Antium?
It’s a good question and there are some issues with our sources about just how Rome is managing their recent conquest of Antium.
Antium is one of theimportant port cities of the Volscii to the south of Rome, so the conquest of this region is bound to have some far reaching implications.
If your suspicion is that things are about to get messy, you’d be right. We’re on hand to sift through the controversies as Aemilius heads out towards Sabine territory and Fabius heads towards the Aequians…
Things to look forward to:
The challenges Rome faces with her relationship with neighbouring territories continues apace in the following year.
The increasing divergence in our source material
General diplomatic mayhem including the possibility of kidnapping!
Hear it all here! Episode 89 – A Fabian AbroadThomas Cole 1836 The Consummation of Empire from The Course of the Empire Image Source: Wikimedia Commons
It’s getting quite tricky to find period-specific artwork for the early Republic, so instead of another map, we’ve gone for this gorgeous example of classical reception.
Episode 88 – Battle After Battle!
Nov 13, 2018
What kind of drama could follow the career of uber patrician Appius Claudius? As it turns out, those Romans are really all about battle after battle! We’ve reached a hazy period in our historiography where the narratives of Livy and Dionysius start to diverge on specifics; some events play out over different years depending on the author.
The general consensus amongst historians is that these narratives are a reworking backwards from the period in which they were written. The argument follows that they become less and less reliable the farther back they go. Be that as it may, it is clear that Rome and her neighbours are each struggling to expand and hold the territories. Rome’s position of superiority in the region by the mid-Republic requires some explanation. And that’s where we come in 🙂
Look Out for these Characters!
Consuls of c. 470 BCE
Lucius Valerius Potitus (cos. II)
Tiberius Aemilius Mamercus
Consuls of c. 469 BCE
Titus Numicus Priscus
Aulus Verginius Caelimontanus
Consuls of c. 468 BCE
Titus Quintius Capitolinus Barbatus (cos. II)
Quintus Servilius Priscus
Battle after Battle, you say. Yes, yes, we do say.
We pick up the narrative deep in c. 470 BCE with the military exploits of the consuls Lucius Valerius Potitus and Tiberius Aemilius Mamercus. Both have a mission:
Valerius takes on the Aequians;
and Aemilius heads toward Sabine territory.
The most significant event amongst these campaigns is a great storm, considered an omen by the augurs. This disruption effectively puts an end to the Roman’s ambitions against the Aequians for this year.
New Year; New Rome?
c. 469 BCE is the consulship of Titus Numicus Priscus and Aulus Verginius Caelimontanus. Both are patricians, though the Numicii are later known as a plebeian family. Details about domestic politics are thin on the ground, but what we can be sure about is Rome’s continuing tussle with the surrounding peoples. There are Volscii incursions into Roman territory, and the consuls sally forth to meet the threat:
Numicius heads south towards Volscian territory;
while Verginius heads east for the Aequians.
Antium – just a big old town full of Volscii?
The shoreline position of Antium means its a strategic city for Volscian operations. So its not surprising to see the Romans move in closer, taking smaller coastal settlements along the way. It’s clear the Romans mean to take Antium…but not before the end of the year!
Vote? For a consul? Never!
c. 468 BCE sees Titus Quintius Capitolinus Barbatus and Quintus Servilius Priscus come into the consulship. Our sources differ on the election of these consuls and the also on the significance of agrarian reform in this year. Did the plebeians turn out for the election of the consuls or not? And if not, why not? Is land reform on the agenda this year or the following year? We consider the details!
Foreign threats continue to dominate proceedings:
Servilius marches against the Sabines;
Quintius takes on the Aequians and the Volscii.
There is a growing sense in our sources that the Aequians and the Volsci are banding together to fend off Roman aggression and this requires some special tactics from Quintius.
Episode 87 – The Rise and Rise of Appius Claudius
Oct 17, 2018
Appius Who?
We are deep in the conflict between between patricians and plebeians. One of the important consequences of the current struggles seems to be an increase in the number of tribunes. Dates for these kinds of things are very hazy indeed and there’s good reason to think that our sources, Dionysius and Livy, are both invested in offering a coherent narrative for why things are the way they appear to be by the late Republic.
With those sorts of caveats in mind, there appears to be five tribunes according to Livy: Gnaeus Siccius, Lucius Numitorius, Marcus Duellius, Spurius Icilius, and Lucius Mecilius!
We jump back into the narrative part way through c. 471 BCE. Our consuls are Titus Quintius Capitolinus Barbartus and Appius Claudius Sabinus and they represent different approaches to political engagement with the plebeians.
Ideological Differences?
Quintius is moderate in his outlook while Appius Claudius is staunchly in favour of tradition. This has evident implications which we’ll explore in detail! Quintius leads forces against the Aequians in the east and Appius leads his forces against the Volscians in the south east. We explore just how differently things go for the two consuls in the field. This discussion includes:
the role of antesignani troops who go “before the standard”;
the importance of the standards;
decimation, its implications and Roman attitudes towards it;
booty (treasure) in terms of size.
New Consuls, New Problems?
c. 470 BCE kicks off with new consuls, Lucius Valerius Potitus (consul for the second time) and Tiberius Aemilius Mamercus consul. Both these consuls come with a bit of history to bring to the table and this makes things much more intriguing.
It’s at this point that our sources start to reveal something of their agendas. We tousle with the potential holes in Dionysius’ account about the rationale for people’s actions.
It will come as no surprise that agrarian reform is back on the table! The tribunes are interested in seeing the audit of the public land, first proposed in 486 BCE, take place. With new impetus with new consuls, the idea of reform is taken up by the Senate.
Speakers in the Senate
Notable speakers in the senate on the issue of land reform include:
Lucius Aemilius Mamercus, father of the consul possibly still bitter about being denied a triumph in 478 BCE
Appius Claudius, everyone’s favourite patrician to hate on
We delve into the details of their arguments and explore the most intriguing consequence of them, which is the tribunes levelling a number of charges against Appius Claudius. You’ll want to listen closely to learn just how things go from there: The Rise and Rise of Appius Claudius
For this episode, Dr G is reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 9.50-54 and Dr Radness is reading Livy 2.57-61.
This map covers Rome through a number of historical periods. In the 5th century BCE, Rome was the dark red area. Map of Rome during Antiquity 1886. Source: G. Droysens Allgemeiner Historischer Handatlas. Image Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Episode 86 – Volero and Laetorius
Sep 13, 2018
Our jaunt through the history of ancient Rome continues apace! In this episode we cover c. 472-1 BCE. Dr Radness is reading Livy and Dr G is reading Dionysius of Halicarnassus and the comparisons of our sources is quite something! The main stars are the tribunes Volero and Laertorius.
Our Starring Players
Lucius Pinarius Mamercinus Rufus and Publius Furius Medullinus Fusus, the consuls of c. 472 BCE
Titus Quintius (Quinctius) Capitolinus Barbatus and Appius Claudius Sabinus, the consuls of c. 471 BCE
Volero Publius and Gaius Laertorius, our plebeian heroes.
The Vestal Virgin Urbinia, noble or not?
Hark, Pestilence!
Dr G gets excited about disease running rampant in Rome and connections with the Vestal Virgins, particularly Urbinia. The pestilence seems to be attacking pregnant women leading to widespread fear. This leads to a discussion of the vagaries of pontifical investigations into the Vestal college. But it is significant that Livy doesn’t mention it and the pestilence seems to be something of a narrative device for Dionysius…
The Tribunes Make Their Move
Volero experiences a political rise in fortune becoming tribune of the plebs. And boy does he go for it! We delve into the differences between the comitia curiata and the comitia tributa because Volero starts to push for changes to the voting system for tribunes. This proposal garners quite a lot of tribunician support. But it will come as no surprise that this move doesn’t sit well with the patricians.
While the patricians stall proceedings, Volero is chosen tribune for a second time. The upshot of this is that the tribunes need to push for changes to the voting system under the highly traditional patrician Appius Claudius. Fortunately, perhaps for the plebeians, Titus Quinctius, is more amenable to their plight.
Politics and Violence
Dr Radness gets political as Gaius Laetorius takes a highly critical stance against Appius Claudius in Livy’s account. Unfortunately he also seems to trail off while in the middle of his invective! With threats of violence and death on the table, the scene is set for some great clashes. Appius criticises the plebeians. Laertorius hits back with some great counter-points. It isn’t long before the situation descends into public violence.
When we left you at the end of the last episode, there was some major events afoot. There’s nothing like a murder in the city. This is especially the case when the person turning up dead is a Roman magistrate! In this episode we consider what happens to Gnaeus Genucius and Volero Publius.
Murder Most Foul: Gnaeus Genucius
Gnaeus Genucius, tribune of the plebs for the year c. 473 BCE, is in a stoush with the consuls Lucius Aemilius Mamercus and Vopiscus Julius. But the problems don’t stop there. The tensions carry over from the previous year. Genucius levels charges against the consuls of c. 474 BCE: Lucius Furius Medullinus Fusus and Aulus Manlius Vulso. He argues that they should be charged because they did not carry out the measures agreed to in c. 486 BCE.
But after bringing the consuls to trial … Genucius TURNS UP DEAD!
To unravel this mystery we’ll consider:
the role of the tribune of the plebs;
the sacrosanctitas of this magistracy;
what our disparate sources (clues!) have to say about the patricians’ role in this sordid affair;
and some of the key consequences of this significant political moment.
Volero, Front and Centre
A violent response to the patricians overreach after the death of Genucius is perhaps unsurprising, but it does come from an interesting quarter. We follow the rise to prominence of the centurion Volero Publius (aka Volero Publilius). Things start innocently enough. He turns up to enlist for the military campaigns. But things go awry when he discovers that he’s been listed as a common soldier.
This is not the story about why Volero appears to have been demoted between one campaigning season and another. Rather, it is the story of how his response reveals the knife’s edge of tension between the ruling elite and the general citizen body.
The unfolding tension on the streets of Rome provides pivotal space for considering a number of issues:
the background of the lictors;
the consequences when Roman citizens reject the legitimacy of the violence meted out to Volero on the orders of the consuls;
the dangers of street politics for the consuls.
Here it all here:
Episode 85 – Murder and Volero!
“A lictor is sent to arrest Publilius Volero, from: The Comic History of Rome by Gilbert Abbott à Beckett. Bradbury, Evans & Co, London, c. 1850.” – Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 84 – The Romans Are Manly Men
Jul 11, 2018
The early Republic of Rome is full of strife and tension. As we inch deeper into the history, there are neighbourly struggles and internal political discord on the rise.
Rome is still mourning the loss of the Fabian gens. The Fabians were almost completely destroyed by the forces of Veii and her northern allies, the Tyrrhenians (think, Etruscans!). Just as Rome was devastated by the loss of the Fabians, the Sabines have take solace in Roman defeat. Rome now faces war on ‘two fronts’…
The Exploits of Manly Men in c. 475 BCE
The consuls for this year are Publius Valerius Publicola, son of Publius Valerius Publicola (cos, suff. 509, cos. 508, 507, and 504) and Gaius Nautius Rutilus.
The Sabines are given short shrift in both our major narrative sources for different reasons which means there’s lots to discuss. Important details include: military strategy, camp organisation, and the narrative purpose of these kinds of stories.
Our sources take in details relating not only to the Sabines, but also the forces of Veii (their camps are very close!). Some particular highlights include:
the possible redemption of Spurius Servilius Structus Ahala (cos. c. 476 BCE), now legate under Valerius;
the triumph awarded to Valerius as a result of this campaign;
and Nautius’ campaign with the Roman allies, the Latins and the Hernucians to help attack the Volscians and Aequians.
In the background of all this military activity is the continuing grain crisis…
So c. 474 BCE Begins! And Just Like That Its c. 473 BCE (or is it)?
A new year means new consuls: Lucius Furius Medullinus Fusus and Aulus (Gnaeus/Gaius?) Manlius Vulso (also the namesake of this episode) are the consuls of c. 474 BCE.
Manlius is sent out against Veii because the northern campaign really isn’t over. But it doesn’t take long for the situation to turn in Rome’s favour. Hints of what’s to come:
a truce;
an ovation;
and a return to domestic politics!
We turn our attention to the Gnaeus Genucius, tribune of the plebs, whose exploits cover both the years of c. 474/3 BCE depending on our source material.
We’ve never ripped through years this quickly, which must be a sign of some kind! The consuls for c. 473 BCE are Lucius Aemlius Mamercus (cos. III) and Vopiscus Julius Iullus (though there are name discrepancies to consider here as well!).
Genucius makes some very political moves regarding the agrarian reform that has been playing out in the background since c. 486 BCE! But how do Genucius’ moves go down? Listen in to find out:
Episode 84 – The Romans are Manly Men
Wenceslas Hollar, Unknown date (author lived 1607-1677), Roman soldiers – Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library, Wenceslas Hollar Digital Collection. Image Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Episode 83 – If Only I Had Some Grain
Jun 13, 2018
After the tragic demise of the Fabii gens, what happens next? The rivalry between Rome and her northern neighbour Veii continues! ‘If Only I Had Some Grain’ captures the spirit of this episode.
We cover the years c. 476 BCE and part of c. 475 BCE. Is this a sign that our narrative is quickening up? Quite possibly!
In this episode we face two strands of narrative:
The developing grain crisis in Rome
The military consequences of the forces of Veii (aka the Tyrrhenians) on the Janiculum
Our Consuls
c. 476 BCE:
Servius Servilius Structus Ahala (also known as Spurius or Servius Servilius)
Aulus Verginius Tricostus Rutilus.
c. 475 BCE:
Publius Valerius Publicola
Gaius Nautius Rutilus
Comparing Military Narratives
Dr Radness delves into the details from Livy. The people of Veii have been holding the Janiculum, which overlooks Rome from across the Tiber. Meanwhile the Romans hatch a plan to lure them away from their defensive stronghold. There is a devious ploy involving cows. And Servilius faces an attack…
Dr G follows Dionysius’ account. He begins with the grain and the forces of Veii falling back north to their own City. Together we consider some questionable military tactics and the potential troubles with moving troops at night.
If Only I Had Some Grain, Grain, Glorious Grain!
As the situation with Veii settles down, the Roman gaze turns inward to contemplate recent disasters. But the accelerating grain crisis cannot be ignored. While Livy’s narrative picked up on this developing issue in c. 477 BCE, now our sources converge on the issue.
According to Dionysius, the patrician approach to solving this problem is twofold. First: purchase grain from neighbouring areas. Second: distribute the grain at reasonable prices to the citizens in the City. Livy gets more specific by noting that Rome buys grain from Campania.
We discuss the viability of this narrative given that it sounds suspiciously like a much later Roman policy…
Patrician and Plebeian Stoush
As soon as military threats are off the table, Rome quickly turns back to domestic issues. This means that public land (ager publicus) is back on the agenda! As soon as you can say Quintus Considius and Titus Genucius we’re deep among some tribunes of the plebs. And boy are they fighting for the rights of the common folk.
The tribunes blame Titus Menenius Lanatus (consul of c. 477 BCE) for the destruction of the Fabii and the loss of the fortress at Cremara. The way this situation plays out is particularly intriguing!
As the year ticks over into c. 475 BCE, the new tribunes Lucius Caedicius and Titus Statius pick up the fight. They bring Servilius to trial on the charge of gross military negligence. It turns out that pursuing the enemy up a hill can have more than just military consequences!
Find out all the details by listening in here:
Episode 83 – If Only I Had Some Grain
An ancient Roman aqueduct in a grain field near Rome, Italy. Image Credit: Wikimedia Commons / Francesco Z
Sources
Looking to follow along with the source material for this episode? Check out:
Livy Ab Urba Condita Libri 2.51-2 (Books from the Foundation of the City)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 9.25-33
We also make liberal reliance on Broughton:
Broughton, T. R. S. with Patterson, M. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic: Volume I 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
Episode 82 – Fabian Demise
May 17, 2018
We return to the history of Rome from the founding of the City and that can only mean one thing – the Fabian family are back front and centre. And, yes, that episode title is a bit of a spoiler! We’re talking about the Fabian demise.
So where were we in the history?
We step back into the narrative with a little bit of orientation. Who does Rome really know about in the region and just how much have they learnt about the people to the north? Veii seems to have been a revelation for Rome. It turns out Veii have the support of peoples further north (watch out, these are our Etruscans!).
We launch into the year c. 477 BCE with the consuls Gaius Horatius Pulvillus and Titus Menenius Lanatus. Getting back into the groove, Dr R and G compare the narratives of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus.
The truce between Rome and Veii established at the end of c. 478 BCE starts to crumble just at the same time as the Volscii to the south east begin to stir. It isn’t long before Rome realises they need to fight a war on two fronts. This means two things:
discussions over public land get pushed off the table;
the scene is set for the Fabian tragedy to come.
The Fabian Frontier
The Fabians are stationed at the fortress at Cremera, just outside the territory of Veii. They are waiting for support from Rome while they hold the defences. We won’t spoil all the details in this write up, but let’s say things don’t go well.
There are a variety of issues flagged in our sources. Dionysius offers an account that factors in divine displeasure, only to dismiss the intensity of this reading as mostly implausible. Dr R explores the possibilities for narrative embellishment from the early Roman historiographer Quintus Fabius Pictor (f. 200 BCE). The dominant narrative that comes through to us positions the Tyrrhenians (the peoples of Veii and further north) as cleverly luring the Fabian forces out from the fortress. The Romans become trapped in unfavourable locations that allow for long-range attacks.
We dive into the battles that dominate this year, the strategies deployed by the different forces, and the ultimate consequences for the consuls. We talk lots of military strategy and a good deal about religion!
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Here for your listening pleasure:
Episode 82 – Fabian Demise
The Chimera of Arezzo, c. 400 BCE. Found in Arezzo, an ancient Etruscan and Roman city in Tuscany. This piece is now held at the Museo Archeologico Nazionale, Florence. Image credit to Carole Raddato / WIkimedia Commons
Additional sound credit offered to SoundBible and PsychoBird for our screaming eagle in this episode.
Episode 81 – Livia Drusilla
Apr 19, 2018
Would any Ancient Roman podcast hosted by two women be complete without a very special episode on one of the most famous women in the City’s history, Livia Drusilla? Obviously not and here we are 🙂
We’re taking a detour from our usual primary source focus to start with the depiction of Livia in the seminal I, Claudius BBC series (1976). As we get further into the topic we move backwards through the material. Finally we’ll hit at the ancient sources.
I, Claudius: Livia Just Another an Evil Woman?
Doctors R and G jump in with the depiction of Livia by Siân Phillips. Her performance really sets the tone for budding historians growing up in the later twentieth century (Who us? *Never*). But the script for I, Claudius didn’t come from nowhere. This sends us on the trail of Robert Graves’ novels I, Claudius (1934) and Claudius the God (1935). Where did Graves get the inspiration for these novels? We’ve got your back.
The connection to Claudius is apparent in the title of the series and this colours the representation of Livia. Find out about the challenges Claudius faced with his family and how this sets the tone the for the ‘evil woman’ trope.
The Ancient Material: How does Livia stack up?
Well, it really depends on the source you read. Dr R notes the problematic account of Dio Cassius, where Livia does not fare so well. Dr G takes a turn through Tacitus’ Annals (and, yes, Dr R is right about Agrippa!). While Livia is up for criticism, she also seems to garner some back-handed praise from Tacitus …
We dig into the prosopography of Livia, her family connections and her important first marriage in which she bears her two children. Livia’s liaison with Octavian begins controversially at a dinner party when Livia is six months pregnant with her second child. Suetonius (hilariously) claims to have access to some of the personal correspondence between Mark Antony and Octavian from this period. Antony lambastes Octavian for his moral scruples in this moment. But what can we learn about Livia amidst this kind of source material that tend towards political invective?
Reading Livia Between the Gaps
We peer between the pieces of evidence to see what else can emerge. The longevity of the marriage between Octavian (aka Augustus) and Livia speaks to the connection they shared. Livia’s public role in Augustus’ moral reform program and her legacy speaks to her significant position and her influence, which while not measured in magistracies leaves its mark in the developing principate.
Ultimately we’re left with a complex woman living in the public gaze in complex times. The enduring Livia continues to fascinate us even today.
Find out all the details here:
Episode 81 – Livia Drusilla
Empress Livia Drusilla, AD 14-19, from Paestum, National Archaeological Museum of Spain, Madrid. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons and Carole Raddato
Episode 80 – The Year 478 BCE
Mar 20, 2018
Rome and Veii
Rome and Veii are central to the politics and military activity of c. 478 BCE.
Rome and the Fabians have developed a whole new military tactic by building a fortress near Veii. This is momentous! It allows Rome to station soldiers outside the City in preparation for battle. This force though is made up largely of Fabians and their supporters which will have implications.
Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus continue to offer competing narratives for this very early period. Both are quite concerned with what is happening in the north including both the immediate threat, the people of Veii and their even further northern allies, the Tyrrhenians. The Romans now realise there are more hostile people behind Veii than previously suspected.
The Distribution of Roman Forces
The traditional levy of troops continues this year but without the usual report of Plebeian discontent. Lucius Aemilius Mamercus (cos II) takes his troops north to join the Fabians while his co-consul Gaius Servilius Structus Ahala heads south to deal with the Volscii. An additional army is sent out against the Aequians in the north east led by one Servius Furius. The extent of the armies raised and the fact they they are sent out in all directions suggests that Rome sees itself as at the centre of threat in the region.
The major conflict (no surprise here!) is between Rome and Veii. For some reason Veii has set up a camp for their troops outside their city, which Aemilius attacks continuously…
When Rome finally breaks through to take the camp they are in for some surprises!
Rome’s Place in the Region
The Romans’ challenges in this year are bound up in the divisions of the forces. The Fabians in their Cremera fortress are acting as a single gens force largely beyond senatorial control.
The Roman forces sent north in support are led by Mamercus who previously held the consulship with Caeso Fabius in 484 BCE, so there is a block of pro-Fabian forces near Veii.
This feeds into the complexities of the situation when Veii sues for peace. Without telling you how it ends, let’s just say that things start to get weird when Aemilius makes a very favourable deal with Veii…
Hear all the details:
Episode 80 – The Year 478 BCE
Etruscan male torso from Veii, probably Hercules, c 550 BCE / Image courtesy of Rjdeadly / Wikimedia Commons
Episode 79 – Fabian Domination
Feb 21, 2018
The history of Rome from the founding of the City continues and, if the title is a hint, the fabulous Fabians are at the forefront of the narrative!
In the wake of the horrific Battle of Veii in 480 BCE we head into c. 479 BCE. While we follow Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus predominantly at this time, we also see a little of the Fasti Capitolini creep in.
After a little bit of faffing about the consuls Caeso Fabius (cos. III) and Titus Verginius Tricostus Rutilus emerge – were these two just as in favour with the plebeians and the patricians? Livy has some details to offer on this front!
We also see a disruption to the argarian situation led by Caeso Fabius – how will that turn out? Dr Radness has the answer.
Relations with Veii
Rome continues to conduct expansionist activity into the territory around the City. Fabius is sent out against the Aequians while Verginius heads towards the Veientes. The situation with Veii becomes increasing complicated as Rome learns more about Veii’s friends in the north.
As the drama unfolds, we take you through some curious moments where the troops are released from the standards, Veii and her allies move south as far as mount Janiculum(!), and the Romans begin to develop a new policy to deal with the increasing challenges with Veii.
It’s at the point that this episode gains its name as the power of the Fabian family is confirmed when the Fabii raise their own forces to serve as a border garrison. This is an innovation in Rome’s way of thinking about the edges of their territory. Hear all the details here!
Episode 79: Fabian Domination
Errata: in our excitement we talked about Titus Siccius as though he were the ‘hot centurian’. This is definitely our mistake and we apologise. The ‘hot centurian’ Marcus Flavoleius has no part in the narrative of c. 479 BCE. Titus Siccius was a legate with imperium in the battle of Veii in 480 BCE cf. Dion. Hal. Rom. Ant. 9.12.5 and he continues to lead troops and saves Verginius from a spot of military bother.
Les Falisques au milieu du Ve siècle avant JC. Image Credit to ColdEel & Ahenobarbus and Wikimedia Commons
Episode 78 – The Battle of Veii 480 BCE
Jan 24, 2018
The nascent Roman Republic is well under the influence of the Fabii. Marcus Fabius holds the consulship for the second time. He shares the illustrious role with Gnaeus Manlius. The real trouble lies in Roman domestic diplomacy. Herein the Battle of Veii 480 BCE.
The politics starts with some agitation from Titus Pontificus (aka Tiberius Pontificius) the tribune of the plebs who seeks some movement on the stalled agrarian reform, but you may already be able to guess how that turns out! We delve into the perspective offered by the sources and discuss what that may mean in terms of the events narrated, but also how we go about reading and interpreting the sources.
Central to the year is Rome’s conflict with her neighbours and particularly Veii. Without giving too much of the detail away (since we wouldn’t want to ruin the episode for you!), it is fair to say that this battle is devastating for all concerned.
So let us take you on a journey through the signs from the gods read by the Roman augurs and the Tyrrhenian* augurs, the escalating to-and-fro between the forces of Rome and Veii, the moment plebeian farmer Marcus Flavoleius finds fame, and the point when the tide turns on the plan of legate Titus Siccius (aka Titus Sicinius).
It’s all here: glorious details of battle, politics on the edge of sword, and speeches with more rhetorical flourish than you can find in a seasoned orator!
The Battle Against Veii 480 BCE
Episode 78: The Battle of Veii 480 BCE
*’Tyrrhenian’ ~ this term pops up in Dionysius of Halicarnassus and tends to refers broadly to the people of Veii and to the north of Veii. These peoples are also known as the Etruscans.
Cavalier d’Arpino and workshop, between 1598 and 1601, Battle against the inhabitants of Veii and Fidenae. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons and Google Art Project
Episode 77 – The Troubles of 481 BCE
Dec 27, 2017
We dive back into the history of Rome from the founding of the city and end up right in the challenges of 481 BCE. This means that we’re in the hazy early period of the Republic where the conflict between the patricians and plebeians dominates the narratives offered by Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus.
How consulships are chosen seems to be getting a little more complicated. There are tussles over how elections should proceed. The use of the interrex to manage the electoral process comes into play suggesting the increasing political complexity in the system. Speaking about complexity, we discuss just how likely a struggle of the orders really is in this period of the republic by considering the names of consuls.
The Fabii continue to flourish!
482 BCE marks the consulships of Quintus Fabius (cos II) and Gaius Julius Iulus, but, as the title of the episode gives away, the events of 481 BCE, and the consulships of Caeso Fabius (cos II) and Spurius Furius take centre stage.
As domestic politics becomes more strained, Rome continues to (wait for it) have trouble with her neighbours…
The real trouble of 481 BCE
The tribune of the plebs Spurius Licinius draws attention to the failure of the movement on the agrarian policy to measure up the ager publicus (public land) and redistribute it to the citizens. The dramas of this continuing situation sets the scene for Rome’s problems with the people of Veii, the Aequians, the Tyrrhenians, and their own soldiers…
Episode 77: The Troubles of 481 BCE
Jean Germain Drouais 1785 ‘Dying Athlete or Wounded Roman Soldier’. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 76 – Plebeian Struggles and the Vestal Oppia
Nov 21, 2017
We continue recording in the library, so advance apologies for potential moments of poor editing!
Episode 76 – Plebeian Struggles and the Vestal Oppia
We return to the podcast fray launching into the elections of c. 483 BCE. The conflict between patrician and plebeian sets the tone. And it turns out that our sources don’t agree right from the start! One of the consuls this year is definitely Marcus Fabius Vibulanus and the identity of the other is a little more of a mysterious Lucius (Valerius? Verus? Publicola? Potitus?)
By this stage the struggles between the patricians and plebeians is in full flight. The plebeian demand for the redistribution of public land (ager publicus) is taking off and there is only one tribune of the plebs, Gaius Maenius, who is willing to support the people’s perspective on this issue.
Threats of violence and coercion ensue. Dr Radness goes so far to liken the extent of conflict in Rome at this point as tantamount to civil war. We are in the midst of a Rome in crisis internally while still trying to face down threats in broader Italy. Follow us into the dangers as the plebeians continue to fight for their share of public land even from the battlefield.
As Rome’s strife continues, they turn their gaze inwards and the pontifical college offers the knowledge that there may be an issue with one of the Vestal Virgins, Oppia. What an action-packed episode!
An imagined vision of the Vestal Virgins (note there should only be six!) – from “Woman Triumphant; the story of her struggles for freedom, education, and political rights. Dedicated to all noble-minded women by an appreciative member of the other sex” by Rudolf Cronau. (1919). Courtesy of wikimedia commons
Episode 75 – Trouble in Rome, Trouble with the Volscii
Oct 23, 2017
The Doctors return with a brand new episode! We are tracing the history of Rome from the founding of the city! At this stage of the narrative, the plebeians and the patricians continue to tussle. And trouble in Rome wouldn’t be much without trouble with her neighbours. Tension is also rising between Rome and the Volscii.
Laying the scene with the Volscii
Quintus Fabius Vibulanus and Servius Cornelius Maluginensis are the consuls of c. 483 BCE. In the wake of Spurius Cassius’ demise, Rome’s attention turns inwards. The plebeians and the patrician conflict continues to escalate and the some of the consequences begin to play out with Rome’s foreign policy.
How do you get soldiers to enlist when everyone is hungry?
How do you maintain yourself in the field when morale is low?
How do you defeat your foes when your forces do not want to fight?
How does the voting system of the comitia centuriata work?
Episode 75: Trouble in Rome, Trouble with the Volscii
Ancient Latium. Courtesy of wikimedia commons
Episode 74 – Gla!
Sep 18, 2017
Episode 74: Gla!
In this very GLAmorous episode, Drs R and G return with a special treat for you, our listeners. Step away from Rome with us for a brief time as we travel further back than we’ve ever gone before!
Gla is a huge Mycenaean fortress in Boeotia, Greece. There’s no mention of the place in Homer’s Iliad and it’s more than ten times larger than Athens during the Bronze Age…
So what is Gla exactly and what do we really know about this structure?
Let’s dive in!
Episode 73 – The End of Spurius Cassius
Aug 16, 2017
We return to the fray to consider the late career of Spurius Cassius! The conflict between the the patricians and plebeians continue and Cassius appears to be running a populist campaign…
In this episode we’ll consider how the political machinations between these groups play out under a new year and new consuls.
Episode 73: The End of Spurius Cassius
The Tarpeian Rock. Photo by Lalupa courtesy of wikimedia commons
Episode 72 – Spurius Cassius and c. 486 BCE
Jul 13, 2017
Our narrative returns to the fray of Spurius Cassius’ political machinations while consul!
Can he find a way to distribute Rome’s bounty three ways with the inclusion of the Latins and Hernicians? Find out as Drs R and G compare the narrative sources!
Episode 72: Spurius Cassius and c. 486 BCE
Episode 71 – Proculus Verginius and Spurius Cassius
Jun 04, 2017
A birth of a republic seems midwived by a lot of local conflict.
In this episode, the Doctors return to explore Rome’s continued struggles with her most estimable neighbours, the Volscians, the Hernicans, and the Aequians. The intricacies really start to come to the surface in the consulship of Proculus Verginius and Spurius Cassius.
Hear it all here!
Episode 71: Proculus Verginius and Spurius Cassius
Artwork Credit: Francesco Salviati c. 1543-5. The Rout of the Volscii with thanks to the Google Art Project
Episode 70 – The Volscians, The Aequians, and The Hernicians
Apr 25, 2017
The Doctors are back! And celebrating reaching our seventieth episode no less! We dive right back into the narrative of Rome’s history from the founding of the City with an examination of the years just following the death of Coriolanus.
Rome, perhaps unsurprisingly, doesn’t really know how to get along with her neighbours…
Episode 70: The Volscians, The Aequians and the Hernicians
Artwork: A compilation of Drs R and G hanging about being excellent podcast co-hosts in the real world 😉
Episode 69 – The Reception of Coriolanus
Mar 20, 2017
It’s time for a special episode!
After such a tumultuous life, it comes as no surprise that Coriolanus goes on to have a legacy that spreads after his literal death. So Coriolanus dies, but he lives!
In this episode, the Doctors turn their roving eye on how the story of Coriolanus has been transformed by his reappearance into the cultural mind of the West through Shakespeare’s play and the centuries that follow.
Find out all the details below:
Episode 69 – The Reception of Coriolanus
Artwork: Act V Scene 3 of Shakespeare’s Coriolanus by Gavin Hamilton 1803. Attribution is also given to Adam Cuerden as per Wikimedia Commons
Episode 68 – Coriolanus, the Final Chapter
Feb 18, 2017
After much ado, many conflicts, we’re finally here! It is the end of Coriolanus. How does his grisly end unfold? Who will be pivotal to the end of his career?
In this episode, Drs R and G push through all the barriers to make sure this part of Roman history comes to a close! Check out the link below to tune in:
Episode 68 – Coriolanus, the Final Chapter
Artwork: Franz Anton Maulpertsch, c. 1795. Coriolanus at the gates of Rome
Episode 67 – Coriolanus – Exiled!
Jan 08, 2017
It’s a new year and a new breath of fresh on the Partial Historian breeze! Oh wait, what’s that? Could it be … Coriolanus? Indeed it is!
The complexities of Coriolanus’ narrative continue to build and things are about to get a little bit hairy for our man of the moment. Join Drs R and G for the ride ahead:
Episode 67 – Coriolanus – Exiled!
Artwork: Wilhelm Wandschneider’s 1903 sculpture of Coriolanus in Plau am See (Germany). Photograph courtesy of Ruchhöft-Plau from wikimedia commons.
Episode 66 – Dr G does Italy
Dec 18, 2016
The holiday season is nearly upon us, dear Listeners, and what better way to celebrate than to take a little trip to Italy.
In this short and sweet episode, Dr Radness asks Dr G the big question of the year – how was *that* trip to Italy? Part tavelogue, part history, all Partial Historian 🙂
Episode 66 – Dr G does Italy
Artwork: Dr G (left) and Dr R (right) getting into the spirit of the season!
Episode 65 – Coriolanus: Trial Imminent!
Nov 21, 2016
Doctors G and R return with a brand new episode from the realms of the ancient past! As the suspense develops in Coriolanus’ career, how are the relationships between the patricians and plebeians working out? With the new force of the tribune of the plebs to reckon with, Coriolanus is not a happy patrician.
Let’s take a look at the different narrative on offer from the primary sources – Livy, Plutarch, and Dionysius of Halicarnassus:
Episode 65 – Coriolanus: Trial Imminent!
Artwork: In an attempt to save depictions of Coriolanus and his relations for where they fit in the historical narrative, we offer a snippet from the First Folio of Shakespeare here (did anyone just say reception studies?)
Episode 64 – Coriolanus, Ultimate Patrician
Oct 17, 2016
Dr G has returned from Italy and to Dr R and that means, dear Listeners, that the history of Rome from the founding of the city is back on! When we last conversed, Coriolanus loomed large on the agenda, and here he takes centre stage again (as he very well may for a few more episodes!).
Ever wondered what a real patrician’s patrician looked like? Wait no more! Listen below to catch all the scintillating details:
Episode 64 – Coriolanus, Ultimate Patrician
Artwork: A little of Coriolanus as imagined by Shakespeare. Here Coriolanus questions his mother’s motives. Image Source: http://quotesgram.com/coriolanus-shakespeare-quotes/
Episode 63 – Aediles, Fetiales, and Coriolanus
Aug 26, 2016
The Doctors pursue the different elements coming to the fore in the 490s BCE by looking at a little more detail at the development of the position of aedile, and the significance of the fetiale priests in matters relating to war, peace, and oaths.
And no episode looking at this period would be complete without more on the developing career of Coriolanus!
Hear it all here:
Episode 63 – Aediles, Fetiales, and Coriolanus
Thomas Lawrence 1798 ‘John Philip Kemble as Coriolanus in “Coriolanus” by William Shakespeare
Episode 62- Roman Struggles, Introducing Coriolanus
Jul 11, 2016
After a brief sojourn into Rome on film, the Doctors return to the narrative of Rome’s history from the founding of the city!
In this episode, the Doctors examine the continuing Struggle of the Orders, some of the consequences of the strife between the Plebeians and Patricians, and *drum roll please* … we catch our first glimpse of the man who will become Coriolanus. Join us as we explore the depths of the Early Republic!
Episode 62 – Roman Struggles, Introducing Coriolanus
Alma Tadema 1907 ‘Interior of Caius Martius’ House’
Tadema was commissioned to design sets for a production of Shakespeare’s ‘Coriolanus’ – without giving the man away – this is an imagined view of his patrician residence.
Episode 61 – Hail, Caesar! (2016)
Jun 06, 2016
The intrepid Doctors return with an all new, all fabulous episode! The episode in which Drs R and G explore the Coen Brothers take on the Golden Age of Hollywood with Hail, Caesar!
We may have been enticed by the prospect of George Clooney as a Roman general, but we stayed for the tribute to the big studio days of American cinema.
Take a sojourn with your ears and see how the film stacks up according to your resident expert on Rome on film – Dr Radford, with curious questions and comments from Dr Greenfield!
Episode 61 – Hail, Caesar! (2016)
With kind thanks to: Rayukk via wikimedia commons
Episode 60 – Trumbo (2015)
May 03, 2016
The Partial Historians have hit the big 6-0! And what better way for the Doctors to celebrate with you than with an episode packed with all manner of interesting things. As you know, Dr R specialises in Rome on film. In this episode, let us take on a journey through the film Trumbo (2015), which is a bio-pic of the life of screenwriter Dalton Trumbo.
Trumbo broke the blacklist when he was given screen-credit for Spartacus (1960). Herein an examination of the politics of Hollywood post Second World War, the film Trumbo, and liberal sprinklings of Rome.
Episode 60 – Trumbo (2015)
Dalton and Cleo Trumbo (1947 HUAC hearings)
Episode 59 – Introducing the Tribune of the Plebs
Mar 22, 2016
Doctors R and G continue their exploration of the history of Rome from the founding of the city. From the epic Struggle of the Orders, the Tribune of the Plebs emerges!
In this episode, it turns out the First Succession is only the start of Rome’s troubles. The ongoing struggle is manifest in the Tribune of the Plebs.
Hear all the details here:
Episode 59: Introducing the Tribune of the Plebs
Artwork: The Succession of the Plebs leading to the Formation of the Plebeian Tribunate Source: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Secessio_plebis.JPG
Episode 58 – The Struggle of the Orders – Part the Second
Feb 28, 2016
Drs R and G return and the Struggle of the Orders continues.
In this episode, the struggle heats up in earnest and we follow the growing antagonism between the patricians and the plebeians.
Hear it all here!
Episode 58: The Struggle of the Orders – Part the Second
Nineteenth century engraving of the plebeian revolt. Source: http://i.istockimg.com/
Episode 57 – The Struggle of the Orders – Part the First
Jan 16, 2016
The Doctors sweep into the turn of the new fasti with a bold return to their narrative history of Rome from the founding of the city. In this episode, Drs R. and G. consider the events of 494/3 BCE and the contextual factors that culminated in the Conflict of the Orders between the patricians and the plebeians.
This struggle is characterised by internal crisis and stands as an early example of class warfare.
Click on the link below download or simply stream it 🙂
Episode 57: The Struggle of the Orders – Part the First
Nineteenth century engraving of the plebeian revolt. Source: http://i.istockimg.com/
Episode 56 – Return to Vesuvius!
Dec 13, 2015
This special episode marks a significant moment for the Doctors. Drs R. and G. return to the topic of Vesuvius and the fateful eruption in 79 CE.
In light of additional research, we’ll examine details of the volcanic eruption, consider the rhetoric at play in Pliny the Younger’s letter 6.16 to Tacitus, as well as modern findings from recent work at the sites of Pompeii and Herculaneum.
Click to listen or download:
Episode 56: Return to Vesuvius
Curious about the Doctors’ first foray on the topic of Vesuvius? Check out Episode 27
Artwork: Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons: Crop of the Pompeii area from the Tabula Peutingeriana, 1-4th century CE. Facsimile edition by Conradi Millieri, 1887/1888.
Episode 55 – Titus Livy
Nov 16, 2015
Titus Livius, better known to the English-speaking world as Livy, is the figure for consideration in this episode.
The Doctors take a brief detour from their exploration of the History of Rome from the Founding of the City to consider one of our chief historical narrative sources for the Regal period and the Early Republic. Livy’s life, his work, and questions of historiographical interest are all up for the discussion.
The Doctors are back! Join us, by clicking on the link or streaming away:
Episode 55: Livy
A depiction (perhaps) of Titus Livius courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 54 – Dionysius of Halicarnassus
Oct 05, 2015
The Doctors return, dear listeners, with a special episode on the historian Dionysius of Halicarnassus!
We’ve been considering the history of Rome from the founding of the city and after some epic conflicts and battles around Rome, it seems time to consider in more detail our sources. Dr Greenfield has been reading the Antiquitates Romanae ‘The Roman History’ of Dionysius of Halicarnassus. In this episode, Doctors G and R consider our source material in a little more detail.
Click below for your listening pleasure!
Episode 54: Dionysius of Halicarnassus
Incisione raffigurante Dionigi di Alicarnasso ricavata dal Codice Ambrosiano. Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org
In this episode Dr G name drops a couple of sources. If you’re interested in following these babies up, these are the details you’ll need:
Fox, M. 1993. ‘History and Rhetoric in Dionysius of Halicarnassus’ Journal of Roman Studies 83: 31-47
Gabba, E. 1991. Dionysius and The History of Archaic Rome. University of California Press: Berkeley and Los Angeles
Schwartz, E. Realencyclopädie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft V.1.934
Episode 53 – The Battle of Lake Regillus
Aug 17, 2015
Dear Listeners, in this episode the Doctors wade deeper into the murky waters of the Late Republic. As the narratives of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus continue to diverge, there is word of a truce between Rome and the Latins, yet another dictator, and the infamous battle of Lake Regillus with some surprising divine sightings.
Join the Doctors for all the thrills, click below to listen or download!
Episode 53: The Battle of Lake Regillus
Statuettes of Castor and Pollux photographed at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York by Ad Meskens
Episode 52 – The Roman Dictator
Jul 27, 2015
The early Roman republic hits its first major snag. As Rome finds itself friendless after continual aggression throughout Italy, the citizens begin to consider how they can guide the city with decisiveness and clarity. Enter, stage left: the dictator.
Join Doctors R and G as they explore the creation of the Roman dictator and some of the surprising details surrounding the formation of a position that seems to have quite a good deal in common with a rex.
Click the link below to download or stream straight away:
Episode 52: The Roman Dictator
Artwork: Rome and Latium, including Fidenae given that the poor city comes up a lot in these early narratives! With thanks to wikimedia.
Episode 51 – Latin Machinations
Jul 06, 2015
Well, dear listeners, Publicola has died and Rome has mourned … but wait, is that the Latins seeking an opportunity to kick Rome while she’s down? Quite, quite possibly. In this episode Doctors R and G explore the increasing tension between Rome and her Latin neighbours.
Hear all the details in our latest episode, click to listen or download!
Episode 51: Latin Machinations
The featured map in all its glory:
With gracious thanks to: http://etc.usf.edu/
Episode 50 – Publius Valerius Publicola
Jun 15, 2015
Your fearless Doctors take a moment to celebrate reaching lofty heights – our fiftieth episode! In this special episode, the Doctors embark upon a retrospective of one of the outstanding figures in the establishment of the Roman Republic: Publius Valerius Publicola.
Publicola has quite a significant role to play, holding a number of consulships (according to the extant accounts), and he stars in one of Plutarch’s lives. Let the doctors take you through the highs and lows from a biographical perspective.
Click the link below to listen or download:
Episode 50: Publius Valerius Publicola
An annotated page from Dr Peta’s copy of Plutarch’s Life of Publicola, with gracious thanks to the Loeb Classical Library.
Episode 49 – Sabine Conflict in Even More Detail!
May 25, 2015
Hello hello, most excellent and patient listeners! The Doctors return with a brand new, particularly fine, episode delving further into the hostilities between Rome and the Sabine peoples in the early period of the Republic.
Following the action of c. 504 BCE, this episode covers the consulship of Publius Valerius Publicola (cos IV) and Titus Lucretius (cos II) as they battle for the city of Fidenae, the Sabine attack upon Rome, and the crucial differences between an ovation and a triumph.
Click on the link below to listen or download:
Episode 49 – Sabine Conflict in Even More Detail!
Charles Christian Nahl 1871 The Rape of the Sabines: The Invasion
Not historically aligned with the content of this episode, this painting refers to the violent beginnings of the Rome. The lack of matching artwork is a hint at the duration of Roman-Sabine conflict.
Episode 48 – Sabine Conflict!
May 04, 2015
The journey through Rome’s early history is potted with conflict, and you’ll no doubt be little surprised to hear, dear listener, that the Romans continue to jostle with the Sabines for control in wider Italy (and even closer to the City).
Allow the Doctors to take you a winding scrawl of battles, conflicts, and rising personalities, focusing on the years c. 506-5 BCE. We discuss the challenges with the historical narratives of Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, the possibility that Rome may have been taken by Porsenna, and the lingering spectre of the Tarquinii.
Click on the link below to download and listen!
Episode 48 – Sabine Conflict!
Jacques-Louis David 1799. L’intervention des Sabines
Since this painting refers to the first conflict recorded between the Sabines and the Romans, it is not strictly aligned with the chronology of the episode, but there are definitely Sabines and Romans at war, which nicely sums up what is happening in this period!
Episode 47 – Porsenna, Scaevola, and Cloelia
Apr 13, 2015
As the times fly by, the Romans continue to contend with Lars Porsenna and the consequences of the Tarquinii on the development of the political character of the City.
In this episode, follow the unfurling of narratives from Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus that seem a little too odd to be believed, with dashes of exciting tales of derring-do from the likes of Scaevola and Cloelia.
That’s right, dear listeners, Doctors G and Radness are back with a brand new episode!
Follow this link and right click to download Episode 47!
Episode 47 – Porsenna, Scaevola, and Cloelia
Peter Paul Rubens, c. 1630-40. Clélie passant le Tibre (Cloelia passing the Tiber)
Episode 46 – Rome and Porsenna
Mar 15, 2015
The Doctors head into the dangerous territory of the sixth century BCE. Junius Brutus, a key figure in the expulsion of the King Tarquinius Superbus, has been slain in battle.
But the Tarquinii are down, not out. In this episode, witness the rise of Lars Porsenna and the noble deeds of Horatius Cocles!
Click on the link to download or listen:
Episode 46 – Rome and Porsenna
Charles Le Brun 1642/3 Horatius Cocles Defending the Bridge. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 45 – The Last Gasp of the Regal Period
Feb 22, 2015
From the founding of the City (that would be Rome) to the downfall of the kings, Doctors R and G have reached a milestone in the history.
In this episode, discover how Tarquinius Superbus attempts to hold on to power despite being exiled from Rome, how Brutus meets his end, as well as a heady discussion on topic of ‘well, what have we really learnt anyway so far?’
Click to listen or download:
Episode 45 – The Last Gasp of the Regal Period
Jacques-Louis David 1789 Les Licteurs rapportant à Brutus les corps de ses fils (The Lictors Bring to Brutus the Bodies of His Sons)
Episode 44 – Lucius Tarquinius Superbus – The Decline
Feb 09, 2015
As the tide of popularity turns against Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, what will he do? And how will the Romans respond?
Drs R and G return with a consideration of the last king of Rome. Follow the action here as the decline of Superbus sets in.
Click to listen or download:
Episode 44 – Lucius Tarquinius Superbus – The Decline
Sandro Botticelli 1500-1 The Tragedy of Lucretia
Episode 43 – Lucius Tarquinius Superbus – The Lucretia Chronicle
Jan 23, 2015
Can a king really be brought low by the actions of his relatives? The story of Lucretia offers some clues.
The Doctors return with a brand new episode in ‘The History of Rome from the Founding of the City’. Join us for the second part of the life and times of the final king of Rome, Lucius Tarquinius Superbus.
Click to listen or download:
Episode 43 – Lucius Tarquinius Superbus – The Lucretia Chronicle
Peter Paul Rubens (date unknown) Tarquin and Lucretia. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 42 – Lucius Tarquinius Superbus – The Early Years
Jan 09, 2015
The reign of Roman kings is nearly over, but what a way to go out! In this episode, the Doctors explore the early years of Superbus’ rule, and you’ll never guess which peoples he decides to wage war against!
As is fitting for the last king of Rome, we are taking our time to ensure we cover all the particulars since there are plenty of reasons why the Romans decided they were not so interested in kings anymore. Join us on a regal adventure!
Click to listen or download:
Episode 42 – Lucius Tarquinius Superbus – The Early Years
Oh, Servius Tullius. A king whose destiny is foreshadowed! A king who rises from obscurity to greatness! The doctors embark upon an exploration of the sixth Roman king, the drama of his life and rule, and the expansion of Roman organisational systems that are attributed to him in some of our written sources.
Click on the link to listen or download:
Episode 41 – Servius Tullius
Artwrok: Jean Bardin c. 1765 Tullia drives over the corpse of her Father (also, spoiler alert). Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 40 – Lucius Tarquinius Priscus
Nov 29, 2014
Join your favourite debonair scholars as they explore the rule of Lucius Tarquinius Priscus, a man of such charisma, and favourable signs from the gods, who wooed Rome from the moment he entered the city.
In this landmark fortieth episode, the Doctors continue their travels through the history of Rome from the founding of the City!
Click on the link to listen or download:
Episode 40 – Lucius Tarquinius Priscus
Sebastiano Ricci c. 1690. Tarquin the Elder Consulting Attius Navius. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 39 – Ancus Marcius
Nov 16, 2014
The Doctors drop in with a new offering on the early monarchs of Rome! In the wake of violence, and after an appropriate period of an interrex, Ancus Marcius is selected as the king to follow on from Tullus Hostilius.
Listen to the dulcet tones of the Doctors’ voices as they explore the life, reign, and interesting developments sometimes attributed to this ruler.
Click on the link to listen or download:
Episode 39 – Ancus Marcius
Coin which depicts Numa Pompilius and Ancus Marcius jugate on the obverse. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons
Episode 38 – Tullus Hostilius
Nov 02, 2014
The Doctors return to the verbal fray with an examination of the reign, times, and doings of Tullus Hostilius. Who? You may very well ask!
No where near as famous as his predecessors, Tullus Hostilius is a significant figure if you follow the Roman historiographical tradition. And yes, he was a king of Rome.
There is violence, controversy, and a tale of two sets of triplets. Let the Doctors R and G take you on a tour.
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Episode 38: Tullus Hostilius
Giuseppe Cesari, c. 1601, La Victoire de Tullus Hostilius sur les forces de Veies et de Fidena. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Episode 37 – Numa Pompilius
Oct 20, 2014
Numa Pompilius is to laws as Romulus and Remus are to violence.
Following in the wake of the violent founding of Rome, a king is chosen for his steady character, disinterest in being a leader, and Sabine heritage.
Let the Doctors take you in the rule of Numa Pompilius, the second monarch recognised from the founding of the city, who secured the favour of the divine Egeria.
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Episode 37: Numa Pompilius
Ulpiano Checa, La ninfa Egeria dictando a Numa Pompilio las leyes de Roma. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.
Episode 36 – Romulus and Remus
Oct 06, 2014
The Doctors return with a new mission! The history of Rome from the founding of the city. Many illustrious Latin historians have paved the way with this bold genre, so the doctors are following in the footsteps of giants. On the plus side, this means a foray into those enigmatic brothers, Romulus and Remus.
It’s a founding mixed with parts teenage rebellion, revenge, and violence; it’s the beginning of Rome.
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Episode 36: Romulus and Remus
Wenceslaus Hollar, Romulus and Remus, after Giulio Romano. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.