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    Government

    The National Security Law Podcast – Bobby Chesney and Steve Vladeck

    Unpacking the Legal Issues Behind the Headlines

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    Latest Episodes:
    Episode 86: This Episode Was Not Recorded in the Situation Room! Aug 14, 2018
    Show notes

    We are back with review and analysis of the latest national security law developments, hot on the heels of last week's deep-dive episode. We'll have another deep dive soon, but for now it's back to some old chestnuts. We've got: Doe v. Mattis -- another delay to report, and some further speculation about the role that passports might be playing in the negotiation. al-Alwi -- last week we shared a few preliminary reactions to the D.C. Circuit's al Alwi decision, and now we're back with an in-depth analysis. A circuit-split on a Bivens remedy in cases involving a cross-border shooting: we've got an explainer on the relationship between the Rodriguez decision in the Ninth Circuit and Hernandez II. PCLOB lives??? A few quick notes on the latest nominations to the PCLOB. If only the Senate would actually confirm some of these folks, this valuable institution would no longer be--wait for it!--inquorate. A note on the military commissions: not much cooking here because the Nashiri litigation is held up at the Court of Military Commission Review, but we do at least have a new judge in the case. Trumplandia: We mostly resist the temptation to wallow in the Omaraso debacle, and actually keep this segment of the show short for once. Mostly we chat about the fact that four federal judges (now including a Trump appointee) have all rejected claims that Special Counsel Mueller's appointment is unconstitutional. Notes on the National Security Division: We check in with NSD, finding a handful of pleas, sentences, and other developments in national security cases (including the apprehension by the Cubans of an American trying to fly to Russia in the 12th year of his abscondment from alleged acts of terrorism for the Earth Liberation Front...definitely sounds like the plot of a TV show). And then we just start indulging ourselves with what must be twenty or more minutes of rambling frivolity, starting with some TV and movie reviews and spreading out to cover some books and...NBA projections? Remember: experts on national security law, but nothing else!


    Episode 85: Party Like It’s June 28, 2004! Aug 07, 2018
    Show notes

    It had to happen sooner or later: an actual slow week for national security law! Ugh! Well, time to make lemonade from the lemons. A slow week in NSL news means that we can take a run at a format that we originally expected to be a mainstay for the show: a deep-dive into a single significant development. In this case, we're going back to June 28, 2004, and the Supreme Court's decision in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. It was a titanic ruling relating to military detention authority, the AUMF, citizenship, due process, and more. In some respects, it was a huge win for the government. In others, it was a huge defeat. We unpack it all, along with a great deal of historical context, over the course of the hour. And for dessert? Frivolity circa 2004, of course! Buckle up for a stroll down memory lane with the top movies, tv shows, books, and songs of 2004.


    Episode 84: Happily, We Found Someone Who Knows What They’re Talking About! Aug 01, 2018
    Show notes

    We are very excited to have a special guest this week: the one and only Amy Jeffress! Join us as Amy, Steve, and Bobby discuss: The cyber provisions in the just-passed NDAA Doe v. Mattis (of course!) The Mueller investigation Rudy and the conspiracy/collusion comment Legislating to speak out against NATO withdrawal? FARA practice 3-D guns, the Arms Export Control Act, ITAR, and USML (no, that's not a soccer league) Also, an extensive discussion of where Amy should have dinner while in Austin! Gotta go now, that conversation made us all very hungry.


    Episode 83: [Steve] Is the Kiss of Death Jul 25, 2018
    Show notes

    Welcome to the latest National Security Law Podcast episode. Though Steve and Bobby both have been moonlighting (here is Steve on the Lawfare Podcast and here's Bobby on the Cyber Law Podcast), there's no place like home, and both are back in the studio this morning to recount and debate the latest national security legal developments. This week we've got: The Carter Page FISA Order application: How are these things supposed to work, how does it compare to criminal investigation warrants, what role may hearsay normally play, what are the Woods Procedures and what is all this talk about "verification," and what should one make of it all? Russia, Ambassador McFaul, extradition, and MLATs: President Trump's flirtation with the Russian proposal for US assistance interrogating our own former ambassador to Russia set off shockwaves. In the background are questions about constitutional protection against involuntary extradition, as well as the rules for questioning witnesses under color of a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. We foreshadow a potential litigation dispute should Russia actually invoke the MLAT in this setting and then the Trump Administration fails to invoke the "essential interests" exception to it. Revoking clearances to punish (and chill) dissent: In a strong bid for authoritarian impulse of the week, the White House is exploring punitive revocation of clearances held by an array of prominent former national security officials who have been vocal in criticizing the president. Relying on this terrific primer from Brad Moss at Lawfare, we review the legal framework. Non-US detainees held by SDF in Syria & potential US prosecution of 2 ex-British IS members: We again note that about a 1000 IS fighters are held in SDF custody in northern Syria, including many European citizens. There's no chance they'll stay there forever, so disposition questions abound. A pair of them who had their British citizenship stripped and who are linked to several especially-heinous crimes may well end up in the US for prosecution. But will that be a civilian court or a military commission? And will the British be able to pass relevant information to us for this purpose if the death penalty is on the table? Doe v. Mattis draws closer to an end: ACLU and DOJ jointly notified Judge Chutkan that they are working on a negotiated settlement and will report further by July 30 (in time for the next episode, we hope!). If they do a deal, it likely will involve either release into Syria as DOD has requested (but this time with travel documents, perhaps?), or maybe even release to Saudi Arabia or some third country after all. Almost another Doe v. Mattis: Turns out Doe wasn't the only American caught by SDF fleeing IS territory. Last month they captured Ibraheem Musaibli, from Michigan. But instead of transferring him to US military custody in theater, he's been shipped to the US for civilian prosecution. At the same time, so too has been Samantha Elhassani of Indiana, who had gone to Syria with her kids and her IS fighter husband, and now faces a lying-to-FBI charge. Oh, you came here for the frivolity? We have a segment that is as solid as a rock. Solid as The Rock, in fact.


    Episode 82: Helsinki…Sweden! Jul 17, 2018
    Show notes

    Another busy week for the National Security Law Podcast! Buckle up for: "The Press Conference" and its aftermath - Your co-hosts agree that it was a fiasco, but they disagree sharply on whether administration officials should resign because of it. Tune in for an extended discussion of the situation involving Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, in particular. Russia indictments before and after - Famously, just prior to Helsinki, the Special Counsel dropped a bombshell indictment against a group of Russian military intelligence officers for election interference-related charges. Then, the day after The Press Conference, DOJ's National Security Division went public with a distinct case involving a Russian citizen charged with conspiracy to act as a Russian agent in the United States without registering with DOJ (and in that case, the defendant actually is in US custody). Doe v. Mattis - Judge Chutkan heard argument last week regarding whether to bar the government from releasing Doe into Syria. The ruling will drop later this week most likely, but why wait? Your hosts speculate on the likely outcome, dwelling on the role of "national security fact deference" and, especially, whether the government can be forced to give Doe a passport or other identity documents. Judge Kavanaugh - If confirmed, would Judge Kavanaugh mark a significant departure from Justice Kennedy on national security matters? Your hosts find a bit of common ground here, but plenty on which they disagree. Military Commissions - There's a new issues, involving the Lucia decision, which may have a big impact in Nashiri (and other cases). Is the Convening Authority properly appointed? NDAA note: The Conference Committee is finishing its work on the new NDAA, so we'll delay our coverage of its cyber (and other) provisions until the final text is public. GTMO and Periodic Review Boards - An oral argument in the CCR's renewed-habeas case for a large group of detainees at GTMO took place before Judge Hogan last week, renewing attention to the question of whether a person ever can be released once initially determined eligible for detention there. The Periodic Review Board process has long been the answer to that question, but with uncertainty regarding the willingness of the Trump Administration to actually act upon PRB determinations, the possibility of legislation to stabilize and perhaps empower the PRB system is beginning to get attention. As for frivolity...Die Hard appears here and there on the show, but the main segment at the end is more of an "extra" than a "frivolity." Steve has a discussion of the new supplement for his co-authored casebook (click here for the front matter). And on Thursday this week, Bobby will be in DC, at the Heritage Foundation, for an event drawing attention to the policy, legal, and technical challenges associated with Deep Fakes. His brand-new paper with co-author Danielle Citron (Maryland) has just gone live on SSRN, here. The event at Heritage, which features a keynote from Senator Marco Rubio, will be livestreamed (12:30 to 1:30 eastern, this Thursday). More here.


    Episode 81: The Road to 10,000 Jul 09, 2018
    Show notes

    We're back after a one-week layoff! No SCOTUS announcement yet, alas, but we do have this to offer: Doe v. Mattis and the upcoming hearing on the government's plan to release Doe in Syria The military commissions and the retirement of Judge Spath Over in the civilian court system, Uzair Paracha, convicted back in 2005, just won a motion for a new trial based on newly-discovered evidence (involving CSRT and other statements from GTMO detainees) A roundup of other recent DOJ prosecution developments (including the extradition of El Chapo's successor) A deep dive into a set of tort suits involving overseas military activities and the role of civilian contractors, with an emphasis on the role the political question doctrine has played in defeating such cases A SCOTUS nomination preview Kudos to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) for its strong report documenting massive Russian intervention in the 2016 election And, as always, some pure frivolity (including an analysis of the Kawhi Leonard debacle in San Antonio and notes on our favorite things about the World Cup).


    Ep.80: SCOTUS-palooza Jun 27, 2018
    Show notes

    Hot on the heels of the Kennedy retirement announcement, we've got our special Supreme Court finale episode! This is the show for you if you would enjoy detailed and amicable debate and discussion concerning: the consequences of Kennedy's retirement for national security and other issues; what the ideological range might be for the next nominee; the Carpenter decision, its nuances, and its implications for foreign intelligence investigations; and the Travel Ban decision, the nature and justifications for "national security deference" in that case, how Kennedy may have pulled Roberts into hot water, and especially the Roberts-Sotomayor dispute over the relevance of Korematsu. Or, you could skip to the end for a review of Solo: A Star Wars Story.


    Episode 79: It’s a Girl! Jun 20, 2018
    Show notes

    Before getting into the run of this week's show: Congratulations to Steve and Karen on the birth of their daughter!!! Meanwhile, in the wild wacky world of national security law, what a week it was. We've got: Zaidan v. Trump - a remarkable district court refusing to dismiss the constitutional claims brought by a US citizen who alleges that he has been placed, erroneously, on the "kill list" based on alleged ties to al Qaeda in Syria Possible expansion of the list of AUMF-covered associated forces to include al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb Further delays in Doe v. Mattis, with the hearing on the permissibility of release in Syria now set for July 13 and the hearing on the merits still out there in limbo. Rejection of the Lee Amendment (on detainability of US citizens and lawfully-present persons) to the NDAA FY19 Denial of en banc review in Hamidullin Periodic reminder that the problem of IS detainees held by the SDF in Syria still is not resolved Baker v. Spath - another remarkable district court ruling, this time finding that the chief defense counsel at GTMO is within the personal jurisdiction of the military commission there, but also concluding that Judge Spath cannot impose a contempt punishment without the involvement of the commission panel. Judge Pohl's scheduling order for the 9/11 military commission trial books up all of 2019 for pre-trial proceedings, meaning that the actual trial is not happening prior to 2020. The "power to wage war means the power to wage war successfully," yes, but for goodness sakes don't cite Hirabayashi for that much-quoted language! Convicted Benghazi conspirator abu Khatallah loses on his bid for a mistrial A quick run-down of other DOJ national security developments this week includes new charges against a man allegedly responsible for leaking the CIA "Vault 7" materials to Wikileaks and also a Wisconsin woman who allegedly hacked the social media accounts of others in order to promote the Islamic State (including sharing Ricin production instructions). The Third Circuit issues an important Suspension Clause ruling in Ocasio-Martinez Judge Brinkema rejects a bid by CACI to escape an ATS claim based on a proposed extension of Jesner SCOTUS still hasn't decided Carpenter, Dalmazzi, or the Travel Ban cases! Notes on new developments in City of Chicago (nationwide injunctions) and Hernandez II (cross-border shooting) Trumplandia: we punt till next week on the OIG Report and ... Space Force! Whew. Time for someone to go change some diapers!


    Episode 78: Live from Singapore, Malaysia (?!?) Jun 12, 2018
    Show notes

    Ok, Steve and Bobby are not actually in Singapore (we sent Dennis Rodman instead). As usual, they're up on the 6th floor at Texas Law, bringing you the following this week: Doe v. Mattis - Because we can't go a week without some fascinating development in this case. This time, it was the surprise announcement last Wednesday that DOD wants to go ahead and release him after all, but to do so in a way that would drop him off in SDF-controlled territory in Syria. Doe is resisting, and now the long-awaited hearing on the legal merits--scheduled to occur on June 20th--has been replaced by a hearing on this release question. And what will (or at least should) be argued then? Steve and Bobby explore two distinct questions: First, does some version of the Valentine rule forbid involuntary cross-border transfers that are not custodial on the back end (and even if so, should that be the rule with respect to releasing captives from a war zone)? Second, is there a rule requiring that the release meet some threshold of safety and, if so, is that rule satisfied here? Boumediene's 10th anniversary: A decade ago, the Supreme Court decided Boumediene v. Bush. Viewed as a landmark at the time, what has its legacy turned out to be? SCOTUS watch: Still no Carpenter, Dalmazzi, or travel-ban decisions. The investigation and arrest of James Wolfe: the former head of security for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is under arrest for lying to the FBI about his relationship with reporters, with a real threat of further charges for mishandling classified information. The underlying investigation, meanwhile, included acquisition of a reporter's communications metadata. All of which provides an excellent occasion to review and discuss DOJ's guidelines governing such journalist-related investigations. Trumplandia Road Show: We could hardly ignore this, could we? The Trump-KJU summit produced some significant American concessions regarding security guarantees for the DPRK and a promise to end US-South Korea joint military exercises. But it did not (yet) produce a reduction of sanctions. We explore the authority of the president to do these things, emphasizing the limits on his control over sanctions in this particular setting. All that pushed us well past the 1-hour mark, so after promising some frivolity involving Steve's favorite SCOTUS decision of all time, we end up pushing that topic off till next time. Till then...


    Episode 77: Pardon Me? Jun 05, 2018
    Show notes

    Hello friends, and welcome back to the latest episode! Last week was a bit quiet, but things are heating up. This week we review and debate: War Powers: This week saw the release of the Office of Legal Counsel's memorandum on the U.S. airstrikes on Syrian military targets in April 2018. We explain what issue it addressed, situate it in context with earlier war power debates, and wrestle over the questions it raises (including, especially, what role if any UN Charter issues should or do play in relation to this constitutional question). Doe v. Mattis (of course): A surprising incident involving the accidental monitoring of a phone call between Doe and his lawyers in New York came to light last week. Is it an example of a well-functioning system dealing with a good-faith accident, or a sign of trouble? Military Commissions: We have a quick note on an attempt by al Baluchi to get the D.C. Circuit to intervene on an issue relating to evidence preservation (now that the CMCR has turned up inquorate), and we have a CMCR-related Dalmazzi update accounting for a curious government filing before SCOTUS in response to Steve's letter pointing out that one of the CMCR judges has retired from the military yet apparently still serves on the CMCR in a distinct, civilian capacity. The ECHR and CIA Black Sites: A fresh pair of decisions by the European Court of Human Rights condemning member states for allowing the CIA to operate black sites in their territory. Don't expect any ECHR member state to cooperate on that front, or anything akin to it, in the future... The Army Court of Criminal Appeals has denied Chelsea Manning's appeal challenging convictions on CFAA, Espionage Act, and other charges. The District Court in DC has dismissed all claims by Kaspersky arising out of the DHS binding operational directive and the NDAA provision, both banning Kaspersky from government systems. Fun to have an occasion to discuss...Bills of Attainder??? We've got a series of DOJ counterterrorism successes to note (all of them--gasp!!!--involving spies I mean confidential informants) Trumplandia: another hot week in Trumplandia, as Team Trump leaks advocacy letters insisting that POTUS cannot obstruct justice, that one (of two) obstruction states does not apply as to the FBI, and that POTUS can pardon himself. Paul Manafort jumps in with some supremely ill-advised witness tampering, just for kicks. As for frivolity: instead of Weird Al, we bring you a review of...Paul Simon???


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