The Lawfare Podcast - The Lawfare Institute

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Sam Lebovic on the Espionage Act's Unlikely History Dec 29, 2023

Show notes

Former President Trump’s prosecution for mishandling classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago estate has brought an old law back to the front pages—the Espionage Act.

Enacted more than a century ago, parts of that law allowing for the prosecution of those who mishandle or unduly disclose sensitive national security information, have helped provide the legal infrastructure for the modern classification system used to protect our country's most important secrets. And by some accounts, to limit debate over some of its most controversial policies.

In his new book, “State of Silence,” George Mason University History Professor Sam Lebovic provides a fast-paced and eminently readable account of the Espionage Act, from its early-20th-century origins, through the various twists and turns that have led it to be applied to government leakers and former presidents alike. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Lebovic to discuss the unlikely evolution of the Espionage Act, the role that it has come to play in our national security system, and how it might be changed to better reflect our democratic values.

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Chatter Archive: Spy Movies with John Sipher Dec 28, 2023

Show notes

This week, we're taking time off for the holidays, so we reached into the Chatter archives for one of our favorites.

In this episode from January 13, 2022, Shane Harris and David Priess teamed up to talk with John Sipher, a former senior intelligence officer who has gone Hollywood. With his partners at Spycraft Entertainment, John is bringing compelling and, yes, accurate stories about espionage to the screen. Before working in the entertainment industry, he spent 28 years in the CIA, where he served multiple overseas tours as a chief of station. Shane, David, and John talked about their favorite spy movies, the fine line between the espionage and action-adventure genres, and the kinds of stories they’d like to see more of.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo, with engineering assistance from Ian Enright. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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America’s First War On Terror with Fergus Bordewich Dec 28, 2023

Show notes

Between 1865 and 1872, the first iteration of the Ku Klux Klan conducted a reign of terror across the former Confederate States, harassing, intimidating, and murdering freedpeople and their white allies. As violence spread with impunity across the South, Congress, at President Ulysses S. Grant’s urging, passed three Enforcement Acts, which radically expanded the federal government's ability to protect individuals from violence when their state governments could or would not.

Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Fergus Bordewich, author of “Klan War: Ulysses S. Grant and the Battle to Save Reconstruction,” to discuss how the Grant administration fought the first domestic terrorist organization the federal government had ever faced. They also talked about the political terrorism conducted by the Klan in that era and what we can learn from that violent period of American history.

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Amanda Tyler on Rahimi and Taking Guns Away From Loyalists Dec 27, 2023

Show notes

The Supreme Court last month heard oral arguments in United States v. Rahimi, in which the Court will decide the constitutionality of a federal law that criminalizes the possession of firearms by individuals on whom state courts have imposed domestic violence protective orders. This case came to the Court following its June 2022 ruling in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen. In that case, the Court determined that whether a law violates the Second Amendment depends on whether there is a “representative historical analogue” for the contemporary law.

Amanda Tyler, the Shannon Cecil Turner Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley School of Law, argued in a recent article in Lawfare that the many laws disarming loyalists that existed at the time of the Founding serve as a set of “historical analogues” required by Bruen to demonstrate the constitutionality of the statute at issue in Rahimi—a claim which has been disputed by Rahimi’s lawyers. Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Tyler to discuss the Rahimi case, the nature of the Founding-era laws that stripped loyalists of their firearms, whether loyalists were members of the American political community, why that question matters for the Court’s ruling in Rahimi, and more.

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The Court at War Dec 26, 2023

Show notes

The Supreme Court during World War II issued some of the most notorious opinions in its history, including the Japanese exclusion case, Korematsu v. United States, and the Nazi saboteur military commission case, Ex parte Quirin. For a fresh take on these and related cases and a broader perspective on the Supreme Court during World War II, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Cliff Sloan, a professor at Georgetown Law Center and a former Special Envoy for Guantanamo Closure, to discuss his new book, which is called “The Court at War: FDR, His Justices, and the World They Made.”

They discussed how the Court's decisions during World War II were informed by the very close personal bonds of affection that most of the justices had with President Roosevelt and by the justices’ intimate attachment to and involvement with the war effort. They also discussed the fascinating internal deliberations in Korematsu, Quirin, and other momentous cases, and the puzzle of why the same court that issued these decisions also, during the same period, issued famous rights-expanding decisions in the areas of reproductive freedom, voting rights, and freedom of speech.

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Rational Security: The “Arose Such a Clatter” Edition Dec 25, 2023

Show notes

This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott were joined by Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett and Cyber Fellow Eugenia Lostri to talk through the big national security news waking us up from our long winter’s nap this week, including:

“Rocky Mountain, Bye.” Colorado’s Supreme Court has bid goodbye to former President Donald Trump’s 2024 candidacy (for now, at least), holding in a 4-3 ruling that he is disqualified as a candidate by virtue of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Will this ruling hold? And where will it go from here?
“Houthis to Sea, so Rudely, a Wop Bop a Loo Bop a Wop Bam Boom.” Attacks by Yemen-based (and Iran-backed) Houthi rebels have led major shippers to avoid the Red Sea, dealing a serious blow to global commerce. But the United States and a coalition of allies has announced a new maritime effort—the (perhaps too) aptly named Operation Prosperity Guardian—to keep trade flowing. What will this military operation look like? And what will it mean for the global economy?
“Not So Bueno(s) Aires?” Argentina has a new president in the form of eccentric populist economist and literal dogfather Javier Milei. What does his election mean for the future of the country? We have a live dispatch from Buenos Aires to talk it over.

For object lessons, Quinta recommended Jennifer Egan’s 2022 classic “A Visit From the Goon Squad”and her latest “The Candy House.” Scott shared his preferred recipe for mulled wine and the secret ingredient: star anise. Natalie shared a wealth of new materials celebrating civil rights leader Bayard Rustin, including a new film Rustin, as well as a recent profile in The New Yorker. And Eugenia gave the people what they want with her endorsement of the Dragon Age series of games.

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Year-End Event, Part Two: A Conversation with the Lawfare Team Dec 24, 2023

Show notes

It's part two of our Lawfare year-end event. Yesterday, we brought you the headliner conversation with Adam Kinzinger. Today, it's three panels of Lawfare insiders talking about the year to come and the year that's passed. We did a panel on democracy, the Trump trials, and related matters. We did a panel on cybersecurity, cyber defense, and AI. And of course, we did a panel on foreign policy and the various crises that are overtaking American foreign policy.

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

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Trump’s Trials and Tribulations: Removal, Not to Federal Court but From the Colorado Ballot Dec 23, 2023

Show notes

It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” this one recorded on December 21 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom. This week, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower and special guest Anthony Michael Kreis from the Georgia State University College of Law.

They talked about the 11th Circuit's denial of Mark Meadows’s removal request in Fulton County, about why the order may have worrisome secondary effects, and of course, about that decision from the Colorado Supreme Court blocking Trump from the 2024 Republican primary ballot.

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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A Conversation with Adam Kinzinger Dec 23, 2023

Show notes

The other day before a live audience, we had our Lawfare year-end extravaganza. It was two hours long, so we've broken it up for purposes of the podcast. In this episode, you'll hear Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes interview Adam Kinzinger, former representative and member of the Jan. 6 committee, who headlined the event. They talked about the big national security stories of 2023, both domestically and abroad. They talked about what to expect in 2024, and how the international stories are linked to American domestic politics and dysfunction.

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

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Three CISA Senior Advisers on Secure by Design Dec 22, 2023

Show notes

Secure by Design means different things to different people. As part of Lawfare’s ongoing project to understand what Secure by Design might mean in practice, we are trying to identify the open questions—areas where research or inquiry might help our collective understanding of the concept and how it might work. Lawfare Contributing Editor Paul Rosenzweig sat down with three Senior Advisers to CISA—Lauren Zabierek, Jack Cable, and Bob Lord—who work on the cutting edge of SbD design and implementation, to get their thoughts on research that would be of ongoing value to their efforts to define an SbD standard.

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

For more information, including the resources mentioned in this episode: