The Lawfare Podcast - The Lawfare Institute

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Rational Security: The “Sociopathic Nose Wrinkle” Edition Mar 17, 2024

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This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott got together for the last time before Scott’s paternity leave to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

“Kitchen Table Issues.” President Biden delivered a feisty State of the Union last week, one that took aim at both those worrying about his age and his apparent 2024 rival, former President Donald Trump. But what does his handling of key national security issues, ranging from Ukraine to Gaza, tell us about where the country is headed, and what can we gather from the response from the other party?
“Tik Tik Tik...” The end may be nigh for TikTok in the United States, at least in its current incarnation. The House has passed a bill that will ban TikTok from app stores beginning in the Fall unless its Chinese owners divest—legislation that President Biden has said he will sign, but that former President Trump recently flipped on. Where is this new major social media platform headed, at least in the United States?
“Trying to Stay Alive.” Policymakers are desperately working to clear the domestic legal hurdles in both Kenya and the United States for an ad hoc peacekeeping mission to Haiti, aimed at stemming the surge of gang violence there. But will the 1,000 Kenyan police officers set to be deployed be enough to restore peace and security to the country?

For object lessons, Alan doubled down on WBUH’s podcast “The Big Dig,” a compelling story of sex, lies, and infrastructure (or at least one of the three). Quinta finally saw Oppenheimer and gave it a “meh.” And Scott gave tribute to the glory of his 30s, now that they have left him.

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Trump's Trials and Tribulations: Delays All Along the East Coast Mar 16, 2024

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on March 14 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Riverside. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff and Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower to talk about the Thursday hearing in the Mar-a-Lago case and everything Judge Cannon still needs to rule on. They also discussed how Judge McAfee may rule in whether to disqualify Fulton County DA Fani Willis and why the New York City trial may be delayed by a month. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Riverside.

To be able to submit questions to the panelists, become a Material Supporter at lawfaremedia.org/support.

This episode was recorded on Thursday, which was before Judge McAfee issued his order on the motion to disqualify the Fulton County DA's Office from the 2020 Georgia election interference case. We recorded a separate live podcast on that decision, which you can find now on YouTube or listen to it on Monday on the Lawfare Podcast feed.

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Lawfare Archive: Paul Rosenzweig on Investigating American Presidents Mar 16, 2024

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From November 10, 2018: With the firing of Jeff Sessions and his replacement with former U.S. attorney Matthew Whitaker, all eyes this week are focused on whether Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election and possible coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russians will get to run its full course. But even before the Sessions firing, Benjamin Wittes and Paul Rosenzweig had inquiries into the presidency on their minds. On Tuesday morning, they sat down to discuss Paul’s recent 12-part lecture series on presidential investigations released through the online educational platform The Great Courses.

They talked about how Paul structured the lecture series, Paul’s own experience on Independent Counsel Ken Starr’s team investigating the Clinton White House, and the course’s relevance to the Mueller investigation.

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Tim Mak on Two Years of War in Ukraine Mar 15, 2024

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Tim Mak is the editor, writer, and entrepreneur behind the Substack site, The Counteroffensive, which covers the Ukraine-Russia war through personal stories on the ground in Ukraine. He has been in Ukraine since the beginning of the full-scale invasion when he was an NPR reporter, and he has done some of the best English-language reporting from that country.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chef Benjamin Wittes spoke with Mak, who is reporting from the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv. They talked about two years of the full-scale invasion, about a decisive battle early in the war over Antonov Airport, about whether the Ukrainian military effort is sustainable, and about the current mood in Ukraine and how people are feeling about America as Congress dithers on Ukraine aid.

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Chatter: Margaret Mead, Psychedelics, and the CIA with Benjamin Breen Mar 14, 2024

Show notes

If you’re listening to this podcast, chances are you’ve heard stories about the CIA’s experiments with drugs, particularly LSD, during the infamous MKUltra program. But you may not know that the characters involved in that dubious effort connect to one of the 20th Century’s most famous and revered scientists, the anthropologist Margaret Mead.

Shane Harris talked with historian Benjamin Breen about this new book, Tripping on Utopia, which tells the story of how Mead and her close circle launched a movement to expand human consciousness, decades before the counterculture of the 1960s popularized, and ultimately stigmatized, psychedelic drugs. Mead and Gregory Bateson--her collaborator and one-time husband--are at the center of a story that includes the WWII-era Office of Strategic Services, a shady cast of CIA agents and operatives, Beat poets, and the pioneers of the Information Age.

Psychedelics are having a renaissance, with federal regulators poised to legalize their use - Breen’s book is an engrossing history that explores the roots of that movement and how it influenced and collided with the U.S. national security establishment.

Books, movies, and other points of interest discussed in this conversation include:

Tripping on Utopia: Margaret Mead, the Cold War, and the Troubled Birth of Psychedelic Science by Benjamin Breen
Tripped: Nazi Germany, the CIA, and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age by Norman Ohler
MKUltra
The intelligence community’s research on “truth drugs”
The Manchurian Candidate
The Good Shepherd
Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control by Stephen Kinzer
The Men Who Stare at Goats by Jon Ronson
Ghost Hunters: William James and the Search for Scientific Proof of Life After Death by Deborah Blum
“Operation Delirium” by Raffi Khatchadourian in The New Yorker

Also check out:

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Six Counts Quashed in the Fulton County Case Mar 14, 2024

Show notes

On March 13, Judge McAfee released an order quashing six counts in the Fulton County electoral interference indictment against former President Trump and his numerous co-defendants. These charges were related to alleged solicitation of violations of oath of office, and Judge McAfee quashed the charges due to insufficient evidence.

To talk over the order and its implications, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower and Anthony Michael Kreis for a live recording of the Lawfare Podcast on YouTube. They talked about what exactly a demurrer is and what led Judge McAfee to dismiss these counts. They also talked about what this order could say about how Judge McAfee might rule on the efforts to disqualify Fani Willis, whether it matters that these charges were dismissed, and whether the District Attorney will go back to a grand jury.

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Devin DeBacker and Lee Licata on the Biden Administration’s New Executive Order on Preventing Access to Americans' Bulk Sensitive Personal Data Mar 13, 2024

Show notes

On February 28, the Biden administration issued an Executive Order (EO) entitled “Preventing Access to Americans’ Bulk Sensitive Personal Data and United States Government-Related Data by Countries of Concern.” Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Devin DeBacker and Lee Licata, the Chief and one of the Deputy Chiefs of the Foreign Investment Review Section in the National Security Division at the Department of Justice, to talk about this new EO and the ways in which it attempts to prevent certain countries of concern from accessing Americans’ sensitive personal data. They talked about the types of data transactions the EO is intended to regulate, what it is not intended to regulate, and the forthcoming rule-making process that the DOJ will run.

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How Should Governments Use Deepfakes? Mar 12, 2024

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Progress in deepfake technology and artificial intelligence can make manipulated media hard to identify, making deepfakes an appealing tool for governments seeking to advance their national security objectives. But in a low-trust information environment, balancing the risks and rewards of a government-run deepfake campaign is trickier than it may seem.

To talk through how democracies should think about using deepfakes, Lawfare's Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, Eugenia Lostri, was joined by Daniel Byman, Senior Fellow at the Center for Strategic & International Studies and professor at Georgetown University; Daniel Linna, Director of Law and Technology Initiatives at Northwestern University; and V.S. Subrahmanian, the Walter P. Murphy Professor of Computer Science and Buffett Faculty Fellow at Northwestern University. They recently published a report examining two critical points: the questions that a government agency should address before deploying a deepfake, and the governance mechanisms that should be in place to assess its risks and benefits.

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Unpacking the Supreme Court’s Fourteenth Amendment Ruling Mar 11, 2024

Show notes

On March 4, the Supreme Court ruled in Trump v. Anderson, holding that states cannot disqualify Donald Trump from appearing on the presidential ballot under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Section 3 bars former officeholders who have since engaged in insurrection from taking future public office—and in recent months, a slew of lawsuits from voters and advocacy groups have pointed to the provision in seeking to strike Trump from the ballot in various states for his conduct on Jan. 6. The Court’s judgment rules out that possibility—but leaves a surprising amount of questions unsettled, in a way that may queue up chaos in the coming months.

To make sense of the Court’s ruling, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic spoke with fellow Senior Editor Roger Parloff, who has been closely watching the Section 3 cases; Ned Foley, an expert in election law at The Ohio State University; and Gerard Magliocca of Indiana University, who has been studying Section 3 since before it was cool.

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Rational Security: The “Alan and the Owl” Edition Mar 10, 2024

Show notes

This week on Rational Security, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien joined Alan, Quinta, and Scott to discuss the week's big national security news, including:

“Operation Humbled Drop.” After months of unsuccessfully pushing the Israeli government to allow more aid into besieged Gaza, the Biden administration has taken matters into its own hands and begun airlifting it in itself. But are its efforts just for show, or a sign that it is abandoning its “bear hug” approach to Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu? And what will it mean for the flow of U.S. assistance to Israel, especially given legal restrictions Israel’s actions arguably violate?
“Sound (Legal Reasoning) and Fury(ous Agreement).” This week, the Supreme Court surprised no one by unanimously reversing the Colorado Supreme Court and holding that former President Trump cannot be kept off the 2024 ballot there for having committed insurrection through his involvement in Jan. 6—a move the justices had strongly telegraphed in oral arguments in February. But for a unanimous outcome, the matter did prove surprisingly divisive, with the liberal minority accusing the conservative majority of overreaching to save Trump from possible future disqualification through other avenues. What should we make of the divided opinions in this case? And where does it leave Trump?
“Smog of War.” Even as the New York Times finds itself in the midst of an internal (and external) controversy around its coverage of Hamas’s alleged use of sexual assault during the Oct. 7 massacre, the United Nations has released a report lending credibility to the conclusion that sexual assault occurred. How should we parse the competing accounts around this heated and incredibly difficult topic?

For object lessons, Alan—much to his surprise—recommended the Formula 1 documentary Formula 1: Drive to Survive. Quinta flagged another Sen. Menendez superseding indictment to add to New Jersey’s state flag. Scott hit both sides of the RatSec listenership with recommendations: one for “Bucking the Buck,” Daniel McDowell’s excellent deep dive into de-dollarization, and another for his parasocial friends on The Ringer NFL Show in its various iterations, who he hopes will give D.C. the regional sports podcast it deserves. And Tyler celebrated the spectacle that is Medieval Times as well as the fact that the serfs there have recently unionized.

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