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Matt Perault, Ramya Krishnan, and Alan Rozenshtein Talk About the TikTok Divestment and Ban Bill Mar 22, 2024

Show notes

Today, we’re bringing you an episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem.

Last week the House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill that would require ByteDance, the Chinese company that owns the popular social media app TikTok, to divest its ownership in the platform or face TikTok being banned in the United States. Although prospects for the bill in the Senate remain uncertain, President Biden has said he will sign the bill if it comes to his desk, and this is the most serious attempt yet to ban the controversial social media app.

Today's podcast is the latest in a series of conversations we've had about TikTok. Matt Perault, the Director of the Center on Technology Policy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, led a conversation with Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare, and Ramya Krishnan, a Senior Staff Attorney at the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University. They talked about the First Amendment implications of a TikTok ban, whether it's a good idea as a policy matter, and how we should think about foreign ownership of platforms more generally.

Disclaimer: Matt's center receives funding from foundations and tech companies, including funding from TikTok.

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Chatter: From Right-Wing Radio to the Heart of the Never Trump Movement, with Charlie Sykes Mar 21, 2024

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Charlie Sykes recently stepped down as host of the Bulwark Podcast. He's a regular commentator on MSNBC, and has written a number of books. He tells the story here of his political journey, from being a page for the Wisconsin delegation at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago, to being a working journalist increasingly disenchanted with conventional liberalism, to finding a home in Reagan Republicanism and becoming more of a political warrior than he ever meant to be--and then leaving the whole thing behind over Trumpism.

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Jawboning at the Supreme Court Mar 21, 2024

Show notes

Today, we’re bringing you an episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem.

On March 18, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Murthy v. Missouri, concerning the potential First Amendment implications of government outreach to social media platforms—what’s sometimes known as jawboning. The case arrived at the Supreme Court with a somewhat shaky evidentiary record, but the legal questions raised by government requests or demands to remove online content are real.

To make sense of it all, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic and Matt Perault, the Director of the Center on Technology Policy at UNC-Chapel Hill, called up Alex Abdo, the Litigation Director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University. While the law is unsettled, the Supreme Court seemed skeptical of the plaintiffs’ claims of government censorship. But what is the best way to determine what contacts and government requests are and aren't permissible?

If you’re interested in more, you can read the Knight Institute’s amicus brief in Murthy here and Knight’s series on jawboning—including Perault’s reflections—here.

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Weaponizing the Dollar with Saleha Mohsin Mar 20, 2024

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Since World War II, the United States and its currency, the dollar, have come to play a central role in the broader global economy. And in recent decades, policymakers have used this role as a weapon, cutting off access to malign actors and punishing those who act contrary to U.S. national security interests. But cultivating such primacy has proven to be a double-edged sword, with more complicated ramifications for many Americans.

In her new book “Paper Soldiers: How the Weaponization of the Dollar Changed the World Order,” Bloomberg reporter Saleha Mohsin digs into the history of the dollar’s role in the global economy and what its increasing weaponization may mean moving forward. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson recently joined Mohsin to discuss her new book and what we should all know about the new economic and political moment we are living through.

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Timothy Edgar and Paul Rosenzweig on the Volt Typhoon Cyber Intrusion Mar 19, 2024

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Last May, Microsoft announced that a Chinese state-sponsored hacking group, Volt Typhoon, appeared to be targeting U.S. critical infrastructure and entities abroad in part through establishing a presence in a malware-infected network, or botnet, consisting of old devices located in the United States. At the end of January, the Justice Department announced it had removed the botnet from hundreds of American devices.

Cybersecurity experts Timothy Edgar and Paul Rosenzweig both wrote articles for Lawfare discussing the Volt Typhoon intrusion and the U.S. response. But the authors take away very different lessons from the intrusion. Edgar argued that although the removal of the botnet was a success in terms of cybersecurity, the legal theory the government relied on for conducting this operation has dangerous privacy implications. Rosenzweig, on the other hand, contended that the Volt Typhoon breach illuminates flawed assumptions at the core of the U.S. cybersecurity strategy, which he says must be reexamined.

Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck spoke with Edgar and Rosenzweig about why the Volt Typhoon intrusion and the U.S. response that followed matter for the future of U.S. cybersecurity and privacy, how the government should weigh security and privacy when responding to cyber intrusions, whether nuclear conflict is a good analogy for cyber conflict, and much more.

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Judge McAfee Rules Fani Willis Can Stay Mar 18, 2024

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Friday morning in Fulton County, Georgia, Judge Scott McAfee issued an opinion in the matter of the disqualification of District Attorney Fani Willis. It was not a complete victory for anybody. The defense didn't get Fani Willis booted from the case, but they did get Nathan Wade booted from the case. And Fani Willis has to contend with the loss of her special prosecutor, as well as some scorching criticism from the judge.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes discussed it all on a live recording of the Lawfare Podcast with Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower, and Andrew Fleischman, a Georgia defense attorney and frequent Fani Willis critic. They talked about what Judge McAfee did, whether there is a serious prospect for a successful appeal, what Fani Willis's next moves are likely to be, and whether there's going to be a spree of plea deals in response. They also talked about whether the case is now back on track and headed to trial.

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Rational Security: The “Sociopathic Nose Wrinkle” Edition Mar 17, 2024

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This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott got together for the last time before Scott’s paternity leave to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

“Kitchen Table Issues.” President Biden delivered a feisty State of the Union last week, one that took aim at both those worrying about his age and his apparent 2024 rival, former President Donald Trump. But what does his handling of key national security issues, ranging from Ukraine to Gaza, tell us about where the country is headed, and what can we gather from the response from the other party?
“Tik Tik Tik...” The end may be nigh for TikTok in the United States, at least in its current incarnation. The House has passed a bill that will ban TikTok from app stores beginning in the Fall unless its Chinese owners divest—legislation that President Biden has said he will sign, but that former President Trump recently flipped on. Where is this new major social media platform headed, at least in the United States?
“Trying to Stay Alive.” Policymakers are desperately working to clear the domestic legal hurdles in both Kenya and the United States for an ad hoc peacekeeping mission to Haiti, aimed at stemming the surge of gang violence there. But will the 1,000 Kenyan police officers set to be deployed be enough to restore peace and security to the country?

For object lessons, Alan doubled down on WBUH’s podcast “The Big Dig,” a compelling story of sex, lies, and infrastructure (or at least one of the three). Quinta finally saw Oppenheimer and gave it a “meh.” And Scott gave tribute to the glory of his 30s, now that they have left him.

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Trump's Trials and Tribulations: Delays All Along the East Coast Mar 16, 2024

Show notes

It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on March 14 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Riverside. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff and Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower to talk about the Thursday hearing in the Mar-a-Lago case and everything Judge Cannon still needs to rule on. They also discussed how Judge McAfee may rule in whether to disqualify Fulton County DA Fani Willis and why the New York City trial may be delayed by a month. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Riverside.

This episode was recorded on Thursday, which was before Judge McAfee issued his order on the motion to disqualify the Fulton County DA's Office from the 2020 Georgia election interference case. We recorded a separate live podcast on that decision, which you can find now on YouTube or listen to it on Monday on the Lawfare Podcast feed.

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Lawfare Archive: Paul Rosenzweig on Investigating American Presidents Mar 16, 2024

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From November 10, 2018: With the firing of Jeff Sessions and his replacement with former U.S. attorney Matthew Whitaker, all eyes this week are focused on whether Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election and possible coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russians will get to run its full course. But even before the Sessions firing, Benjamin Wittes and Paul Rosenzweig had inquiries into the presidency on their minds. On Tuesday morning, they sat down to discuss Paul’s recent 12-part lecture series on presidential investigations released through the online educational platform The Great Courses.

They talked about how Paul structured the lecture series, Paul’s own experience on Independent Counsel Ken Starr’s team investigating the Clinton White House, and the course’s relevance to the Mueller investigation.

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Tim Mak on Two Years of War in Ukraine Mar 15, 2024

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Tim Mak is the editor, writer, and entrepreneur behind the Substack site, The Counteroffensive, which covers the Ukraine-Russia war through personal stories on the ground in Ukraine. He has been in Ukraine since the beginning of the full-scale invasion when he was an NPR reporter, and he has done some of the best English-language reporting from that country.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chef Benjamin Wittes spoke with Mak, who is reporting from the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv. They talked about two years of the full-scale invasion, about a decisive battle early in the war over Antonov Airport, about whether the Ukrainian military effort is sustainable, and about the current mood in Ukraine and how people are feeling about America as Congress dithers on Ukraine aid.

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