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Government touches nearly every part of our lives—but too often, it feels confusing, slow, or outdated. In this episode of The Government Fix, Amanda Renteria talks with former Stockton Mayor Michael Tubbs about what it really takes to build a government that just works. Tubbs shares how leading a city through bankruptcy, violence, and outdated technology shaped his vision for simpler, more human-centered systems. He walks through the creation of Stockton’s guaranteed income pilot, what the data revealed, and why trust and dignity matter as much as efficiency. Together, they explore the role of young people, the promise of AI, and the importance of updating the “unsexy” systems that keep government running. This conversation is a roadmap for anyone who believes better government is possible.ABOUT THE GUEST:Michael Tubbs rose from poverty in South Stockton to become a national leader in economic mobility and public innovation. Elected at 26 as Stockton’s first African-American mayor—and the youngest mayor of a major US city—he launched transformative initiatives including Stockton Scholars and the nation’s first mayor-led guaranteed income pilot. He now serves as Special Advisor to California Governor Gavin Newsom and founded both Mayors for a Guaranteed Income and End Poverty in California. Michael is currently running for California lieutenant governor.LEARN MORE: https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_tubbs_the_political_power_of_being_a_good_neighborABOUT THE GOVERNMENT FIX:The Government Fix is a podcast by Code for America, the country’s leading civic tech nonprofit for over 15 years. Hosted by CEO Amanda Renteria, we explore what it looks like when government works well for everyone. Explore all episodes and learn more: codeforamerica.org/thegovernmentfixWatch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@codeforamerica/podcasts Transcript:[00:00:00] Michael Tubbs: I remember the big joke when I became mayor was that the only thing I was older than was our legacy system, but only by a year. We were using technology from 1990 in 2016 in Stockton. We had our payroll department, wasn't a department. It was a woman with like-- It wasn't even a spreadsheet, it's something I've never seen before in my life. It was like a black screen with freaking green.[00:00:26] Amanda Renteria: [laughs] Yes.[00:00:29] Michael: I was like, "Wait, this is how we're getting paid?"[Theme music fades in][00:00:32] Amanda: Although we might not realize it, we interact with government every single day. Maybe it's while brushing our teeth, dropping our kids off at school, or taking out the trash. We're almost always interacting with government systems. You hear a lot about how these systems fail, whether it's potholes making your work commute a little bumpier or long wait times at the unemployment office. There's plenty to complain about.[Music plays][00:01:09] Amanda: Welcome to The Government Fix. I'm your host, Amanda Renteria. I've worked on Capitol Hill, in the classroom, on Wall Street, and now I'm the CEO of Code for America, an organization focused on using tech to improve public services and make government work well for everyone.I know that a government that works for us can feel far away. It can be confusing, intimidating, and downright discouraging to find a way to just get by. But here at Code for America, we like to operate from a place of hope and informed optimism. We are looking to bridge the gap between the government we have and the government we need. We talk to the folks who are shaking things up from the inside and outside governments with big ideas and boots on the ground.For our first episode, we're focusing on the government fix for a government that just works. How do we simplify? How do we update old systems? How do we incorporate new research and rapid developments in the realm of AI? Are the young folks on TikTok holding a golden nugget of wisdom coming to save us all? Today's guest is no stranger to these questions. Michael Tubbs was elected mayor of his native Stockton, California, at just 26 years old, making him one of the youngest mayors of a major American city.For those who don't know, Stockton wasn't just any American city. Tubbs inherited a city with historically high rates of crime, poverty, and a newly declared citywide bankruptcy. He came in with a vision to remedy this. In 2019, Michael Tubbs launched SEED. That's the Stockton Economic Empowerment Demonstration. The concept was simple. Give residents who are living at or below the city's median income level a one-time $500 cash infusion. This is what some call universal basic income. No questions, no confusing paperwork, no strings attached.After a year, researchers found that full-time employment actually increased among participants. Their physical and emotional health improved. The success of the program suggested that when you give people a little bit of a safety net, they don't just stay afloat or stop working. They thrive. SEED sparked a global conversation about universal basic income, and since then, Tubbs has gone on to work at the state level in California, serving as a special advisor to Governor Gavin Newsom on economic mobility.Michael understands that interacting with government can feel overwhelming. Whether it's filing your taxes, applying for benefits, or navigating a complicated form, the process often leaves people wondering, "Did I even do this right?" He also knows what's possible when government is designed with empathy, clarity, and efficiency at the center. When it feels less like a maze and more like a public service. Let's talk about what it takes to believe in a government that just works.[Music transition][00:04:17] Amanda: I'm excited to have this conversation because when I think of innovative folks thinking about government in a different kind of way, you really started out innovative and really taking the lived experience, being there, understanding. What people really needed on the front lines. I want to take you back to that. If you could remember what sparked the, "I got to do something about this. I got to fix government."[00:04:43] Michael: It was being in government, particularly in Stockton. I ran for city council in Stockton. I just graduated from Stanford, had spent a summer at Google. I was used to iteration and move fast and break things and put it back together and problem-solving. Given the immense need in the city of Stockton, from the high poverty rates to we had just declared bankruptcy, staff capacity issues, et cetera, I just expected there would be an opportunity to make government work. Because it had to work. Because we had to do more than the government of Beverly Hills, for example, or the government of Palo Alto. We just can't do the regular government stuff.Being from Stockton, there was such immense need, and folks were looking for leadership, and government had to deliver services. Government had to work. The fact that it wasn't working, we had just declared bankruptcy, we had the highest per capita motorway in the country. We had the lowest staff police force in the country, had very little staff capacity to do even the basics, just created a perfect storm, or an imperfect storm, if you will, of opportunity and need to figure, "How do we make this thing work to deliver for the folks who are counting on us?"[00:05:52] Amanda: Listen, you're young, you're coming out. What was it that sparked you to say, "I'm going to now do it. I see it, and I'm now going to run. I'm going to put my hat in the ring, and I'm going to do this, and I think I can win." That moment when you're like, "No, this is real now. I'm going to put myself on the line."[00:06:14] Michael: It was literally Halloween 2010. I was interning in the White House. I had spent my last years of high school as the Youth Advisory Commission Chair, so I was familiar with local government. Now I was at Intergovernmental Affairs for the White House, and then my cousin in Stockton ended up being a victim of a homicide. It was really that juxtaposition between being at the seat of power, literally at the White House, and then feeling very powerless. It wasn't enough to protect my family.That made me think about, "Well, maybe my purpose isn't just to be successful for me. Maybe it's not just about me getting all the accolades and making a lot of money. Maybe I should probably go back to Stockton and see if this was the best government could do."Then, the next year, the city declared bankruptcy. I remember going home for Christmas, and the mayor at the time had said she had an anti-crime strategy that she was going to reveal at the end of the year. It was the end of the year, a reporter just asked her like, "Hey, any update on the anti-crime strategy?" There was so much stuff going on, she had no idea what the reporter was referring to. It was this big announcement that was made eight months ago, that this strategy was coming.I took that very personal and I realized that maybe part of the issue is that if the job of government leaders are to set priorities, their priorities are set by their proximity and the fact that the murders and the homicides were proximate. Those weren't the people at the country club, those weren't the people at the state of the city, those weren't the people even showed up to council meetings.I said, "Look, I could just complain about it, or I could run," but I really ran, Amanda, not even with this intent that I had to win, it was more of, "I have to run." For me, it felt like there was something in the journey of running that was going to be important.[00:07:59] Amanda: I'm curious now, you're still young, but as you think about that next generation and how they are living in their world, AI-enabled, you do AI work. Just in general, looking back on yourself and saying, what was it that you trusted, what was it that you knew? Or is it that you just don't think about and you just follow it? I'm curious what kind of advice you give.[00:08:27] Michael: My advice is, A, for me, it's having to say strong values and moral foundation that helps shape the decisions I make and shape the world I want to live in. Number two, I just remember being younger and reading all these biographies of people who I literally looked up to and admired. What did it for me was they were all a little bit crazy at the time.[00:08:54] Amanda: [laughs][00:08:55] Michael: They were all a little bit crazy, and then number two, looking back, everything seemed inevitable, but in the moment, every choice, the opposites seemed like it would be more true. That's always stuck with me, the fact that history is made on the margins and the fact that, like Nelson Mandela said, "It always looks impossible until it's done."I tell people all the time that, if you're actually going to change something and make a dent, it won't look likely. It will look hard. It will look like it's not going to happen. In fact, for me, that's the indicator, "I should do this thing." Even if it doesn't work out, because there's a lesson there, or there's iteration there, or it gets you closer to whatever that next thing is. That's why I tell folks to embrace the chaos, embrace the uncertainty, and embrace the journey, because you actually have no control over the destination.[00:09:51] Amanda: What's weird is I think when people think about government, they think it's this thing that's bureaucratic, slow, big, and impossible. In fact, there are these pockets, these moments, these times where not just the moment opens up, where it's a little chaotic and you've got to figure out your way, but people themselves can come in and open it up. I think that's the part that, when I'm also talking to young people, I'm like, "No, get into government, figure it out." You can actually disrupt things from the inside. When you do that, you actually then have the resources of government to shape and move, and that's super powerful. As we think about this new generation, what are they bringing? Because I know you work with a lot of young folks. What are they bringing to the discussion today?[00:10:41] Michael: I think they bring a fluency [chuckles] with the tools. The tools are things that are already integrated into their everyday life. When I think of myself dating myself-- I just created a TikTok a couple months ago. The people who are helping me understand how to use it, why it's different than Instagram, how things go viral, et cetera, are 23, 24, 25-year-olds. They just get it. They didn't go to school for TikTok. They didn't go to these trainings. They're TikTok fluent. They're AI fluent. They just have an understanding of technology and don't have a fear of it.I also think that they just bring the beauty of our beginner's mindset. They haven't been so jaded with what hasn't worked. They haven't been so jaded with the time we did the ERP transition 20 years ago, and it was disastrous. They're like, "What are you talking about?" It's just like, "Let's just do it." If we don't get it right this time, let's get it right the next time. I just love that beginner's mindset and that levity.[00:11:38] Amanda: One of the things that I have appreciated, and you've always been on the front lines of communicating your ideas and your thoughts, these folks who are young are doing it all the time in real time as the world is changing around them in different forms, like you mentioned, in TikTok, in short form, in long form, in just real-time talk.[00:11:57] Michael: They're also so intuitive. Good or bad, they don't wait for talking points. They don't wait for the polls. They're really very comfortable pulling out their phone and saying, "Hey, this just happened. This is what I feel." I think that level of authenticity is what folks are craving. I think what we have to do is find a way to balance the authenticity with making sure things are factually accurate. As we know, emotions drive decision-making, not facts. The fact that these folks have figured out how to be emotional, how to be honest, how to be off-the-cuff, how to just say what they think is really powerful.[00:12:35] Amanda: There's the part where you can explore and you can test. Now I'm interested in the seriousness of the Stockton Economic Empowerment Demonstration project that you did, where you gave 125 residents $500 a month. Big first question there is, how did you actually fund that? Because you could talk about it, we could do a TikTok about it, but at the end of the day, you got to get it funded, and it has to be funded in order for it to work. Let's start there.[00:13:05] Michael: What was fascinating is that it was very serendipitous. Me and my team were talking about it would be cool to do something like that one day, but given the fiscal realities of Stockton, I didn't even have money to fund it. In the next week, I was in San Francisco at a Tech for Government conversation. [chuckles] My good friend, Natalie Foster, was there, and she asked me what I was up to. I said, "Well, I'm in Stockton. What are you up to?" She said, "Well, we're looking for cities to pilot a guaranteed income in. Are you familiar with the concept?"I embellished it a little bit. I said, "I have a task force I'm looking at to a guaranteed income, and right now we…
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