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The Evolving Faith Podcast — Christianity
The Evolving Faith Podcast

This is a podcast for the wounded, the misfits, and the spiritual refugees to let you know you are not alone. We’re here to cultivate love and hope in the wilderness. We believe the story of God is bigger, wider, more inclusive and welcoming, filled with more love, than we could ever imagine. There’s room here for everyone. There’s room here for you.

Latest Episodes:

"Doubt can be the thing that pulls you closer to home" with Eric Thomas Aug 02, 2023

We just couldn’t help ourselves. Even though our team is busy behind the scenes preparing for Evolving Faith 2023, we just had to drop one more bonus episode featuring R. Eric Thomas’s talk from the 2022 conference. Eric is one of the funniest writers you’ll find on the internet, but he’s also incredibly thoughtful and genuine as he explores his own relationship to faith, blackness, and queerness. Even as he wrestles with the faith he grew up with, he’s a self proclaimed “big old church queen” who hasn’t stopped considering what it means to be fully at home in himself and in the world. This is a good one, friends. We’re glad you’re here.

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Patchworks of Meaning: Stitching Together Our Stories with Scripture Jun 28, 2023

Surprise! Another bonus episode featuring Barbara Brown Taylor from our 2022 Evolving Faith conference. Barbara skillfully walks us through how to own our ever evolving relationship with scripture. She reminds us that just as the text has stood the scrutiny of our ancestors, it can also handle ours. Barbara challenges us to see our own relationship with scripture as a quilt, with no two being the same. “Working on your quilt isn't the same as designing your own Bible, though we do that too. It's a matter of taking responsibility for how you read it and why along with the honor of putting your fingerprints on it as generations before you have done.” You don’t want to miss this episode, and you’ll most definitely want to share it with anyone in your quilt making circle.

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Blessings Reimagined May 10, 2023

In this special episode, Kate Bowler joins host Sarah Bessey for a conversation about the search for spiritual language around blessing and praying without certainty. Kate also fields questions from the Evolving Faith community about her own faith journey and how that has shaped her thoughts about hope, “un-spiritual” feelings, and the character of God. They also chat about Kate’s latest book, which she co-authored with Jessica Richie, The Lives We Actually Have: 100 Blessings for Imperfect Days, and the process of writing blessings for our honest, human, everyday existence.

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Benediction Sep 07, 2022

Jeff and Sarah offer a benediction that reminds us of all we’ve learned from our guests through this season of the podcast. They leave us with the blessing that God loves us, and that with God’s Spirit and the community of fellow wanderers, we are never alone in the wilderness.

Evolving Faith Conference

Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

Ask Us Anything Aug 31, 2022

Jeff and Sarah answer questions from the Evolving Faith online community. They discuss their stories of “deconstruction” and shifts in their faith practices, as well as how to walk through faith evolution when loved ones aren’t on board. They also share books that have shaped them along the journey and discuss reading the Bible with room for lament and doubt. Plus Jeff shares his fried rice guidelines, Sarah answers knitting questions, and they both give some comfort TV recommendations.

Evolving Faith Conference

Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

"We Could Use Some Resurrection" with Nadia Bolz-Weber Aug 17, 2022

Nadia Bolz-Weber talks about how we’ve used the phrase “the Lord” in ways that often paint a very different picture than who Jesus was and is. She tells us that in the time that Jesus was on earth, “Lord” was a term used for Caesar. Lords were dictatorial and made people’s lives miserable. But Luke tells us of a different God entirely, God as baby, as friend, as Jesus. And Luke waits to call Jesus “Lord” until this story in Luke 7: The widow is leaving the city to go and bury her child. Jesus sees her and has compassion on her. In Greek, this term is more visceral—his guts turned, his insides lurched toward this woman in grief. Jesus is not the Lord of empire or institution or domination; Jesus is the Lord of compassion. Jesus saw grief and wasn’t afraid to touch it. She concludes with a prayer for the Lord of compassion to enter into our grief, bless the things we think are dead, and give us back to one another. Following Nadia’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss the names they have used for God, the need for resurrection in our daily lives, and the hard work of compassion.

Evolving Faith Conference

Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

Are You Prepared to Die? with William Matthews Aug 10, 2022

William Matthews opens by asking a powerful question: Are you prepared to die? He describes the nature of horror films and draws parallels to the experience of being Black in America. He then takes us to the story of Mary of Bethany, who publicly challenged patriarchy and social norms by publicly mourning Jesus before his death. William tells listeners that power, whether religious or political, does not reward you for doing the right thing, only for reinforcing its system of violence against marginalized bodies. So when we do the work of dismantling these systems, we need to be prepared to die. William concludes by saying that America is living in a collective horror story, and he challenges us to name the beast among us. To do this, we have to have radical compassion for the marginalized and vehemently oppose dehumanizing rhetoric. And remember that Jesus, the liberator, was anointed to die. Following William’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss America’s true original sin, listening to narratives besides our own, and what comes next once we’ve heard them.

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

Habitual Gratitude, with B.T. Harman Aug 03, 2022

B.T. opens by acknowledging all of the understandable reasons we have to be angry—racism, homophobia, misogyny, the damage caused by nonaffirming Christians, and so much pain all around us. But B.T. realized that there came a time where his anger turned into what he calls “doom rehearsal,” which is the habitual consumption of presumed despair based on the assumption that everything is only getting worse and love won’t win in the end. To combat the toil that doom rehearsal was taking on himself and his art, B.T. decided to reinvest his emotional energy with the discipline of habitual gratitude. He reminds listeners that the call for gratitude is pervasive in Scripture and is correlated with greater happiness, improved health, and better relationships, and it is an antidote to materialism and negative emotions. After sharing some of his own practices of gratitude, B.T. concludes with this encouragement: “As you work through your pain, leave some room for gratitude.” Following B.T.’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss healthy and unhealthy forms of gratitude practice and what they are grateful for in their own lives.

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

We Belong to God, with Lisa Sharon Harper Jul 27, 2022

Lisa opens by sharing about her own realization that the gospel she was taught wouldn’t actually be good news for her own enslaved grandmother. This crisis of faith took her to the Book of Genesis, and she reminds us that the text was written by Brown, colonized people. Lisa tells listeners that we have to have eyes to read from this perspective to understand God’s actual good news laid out in Scripture. She explains that when God said “This is very good” on the sixth day, the Hebrews understood goodness to exist between things, the relationships between all of creation. Lisa concludes by encouraging listeners that we bear the image of God, so we are called to steward creation and relationships toward radical wellness. This radical wellness is very good news indeed. Following Lisa’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss learning the stories of our ancestors and the intentionality of pilgrimage as we seek the “holy equalizing” good news for ourselves and our neighbors.

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

“I Want You to Know Freedom,” with Jennifer Knapp Jul 20, 2022

Jennifer tells us her own story of publicly coming out in 2010 and discusses the burden placed on the LGBTQ community to disclose deeply personal information. She shares what she’s learned in the process, that proximity breaks down prejudice, and stories allow us to understand that people aren’t peculiar, but they are particular. Jennifer tells listeners that she fights to hold onto hope that we’re in an age of liberation of the gay voice inside of faith communities. She concludes by encouraging the LGBTQ community, “I want you to know freedom. Come fly with me.” Following Jennifer’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss the assumptions we make, belonging inside and outside the church, and being a good neighbor (not just on special occasions).

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

A Guest in Someone Else’s Story with Eric Barreto Jul 13, 2022

Eric begins by retelling the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts chapter 8. He explains that the eunuch did something that people in power typically don’t do: He asks for help. Eric describes his own upbringing in a faith that fell short of demonstrating love and justice to the marginalized and made him feel like he could only belong in the context of whiteness. But the story in Acts 8 shows us that in the wilderness, all you need is a question, a witness, and the presence of God. Eric concludes by reminding listeners that God is not a stranger to the wilderness, and in the wilderness, there is belonging, delight, and the unending grace of a God who always has one more seat at the table. Following Eric’s talk, Jeff and Sarah reflect on the layers and textures of wilderness and loving, imaginative hospitality.

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

Sacred Mystery and Fierce Love with Kaitlin Curtice Jul 06, 2022

In this episode, Kaitlin discusses her own journey of decolonization and connection to her Potawatomi heritage. She explains that decolonization is the breaking down of systems of colonization, both personally and systemically. Kaitlin challenges us to look at the ways that colonization has affected all of us—not just those who are oppressed—because we can’t live in denial without our scabs becoming scars. She concludes by telling listeners that we have to be honest about the story of America and the trauma of colonization so that we can face it and heal together. After Kaitlin’s talk, Jeff and Sarah reflect on the deeply personal nature of decolonization, how it reconnects us to our roots, and how it makes room for us all.

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

Remember the Refrain with Cece Jones-Davis Jun 29, 2022

Cece Jones-Davis takes us to the story of the people of God fleeing captivity through the parted waters of the Red Sea. She describes the song that Moses sang to celebrate what God had done and points out that Miriam sang the refrain while playing her timbrel. Cece tells us that we are a people on the move, and we still need a chorus. She reminds us that in the midst of an evolving faith, there are some things worth taking with you. She ends by encouraging us to remember the refrain, because the road ahead is long, and by telling listeners “What the Lord requires also requires the Lord.”

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

Let God Love You with Danielle Shroyer Jun 22, 2022

This episode of The Evolving Faith Podcast features:

A brand new segment of the podcast called Welcome to the Party, Jeff where Jeff reveals which show from pop culture past that he has “discovered.”
Danielle Shroyer’s talk from the 2019 Evolving Faith conference that none of us have been able to forget.
Danielle discussing the story of original sin and taking us back to the garden to remind us that the older, more ancient story is one of original blessing.
Her reminder that our humanity isn’t what separates us from God, it’s actually what connects us.
Danielle closing with a guided meditation that just might be what we all need.
Following Danielle’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discussing theologies of grace and why letting God love us can feel like a challenge.

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

The Power in the Story with Jasper Peters Jun 15, 2022

This episode of The Evolving Faith Podcast features:

Shocking news that both Fozzie and Sarah fall off of couches when they nap.
Jasper Peters’ talk from the Evolving Faith 2019 conference where he starts with the question, “What happens when the things we were taught about the Bible don’t turn out to be true?”
He discusses how the Bible has been used as a weapon against so many people throughout history and how this same text can be used as liberation for the least of these here and now.
Jasper ends by encouraging us to abandon the battleground for biblical authority and reclaim the power Scripture has for those who engage the text.
Following Jasper’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss how our faith traditions influence how we read Scripture.

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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

The Geography of God, with Sarah Bessey Jun 08, 2022

This episode of The Evolving Faith Podcast features:

Very natural chitchat between Jeff and Sarah. So natural.
Jeff torturing Sarah by reading her bio out loud to her.
Sarah’s talk from the Evolving Faith 2019 conference where she takes us to the passage in Matthew 11 where Jesus says if we are weary, worn out, or burned out on religion, he can show us rest and how to walk in the unforced rhythms of grace.
She encourages listeners that Jesus doesn’t judge our weariness and he is inviting us to walk with him to see how he moves in the world.
Sarah reminds us that the subversive nature of Jesus compels us to care about the oppressed and that there’s still good work to do in the world.
After Sarah’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss the ways that they experience God acknowledging their weariness and burdens.
Sarah and Jeff discuss their own evolving faith around their understanding and reading of the Bible as well as how they experience the love of God in their own lives. Episode Notes
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Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

A Story of Suffering, with Tanya Marlow Jun 01, 2022

This episode of The Evolving Faith Podcast features:

A conversation between Jeff and Sarah about Derry Girls you don’t want to miss
Tanya Marlow’s talk from the 2019 Evolving Faith conference where she discusses the stories we tell to make sense of the world
How her own story of chronic illness doesn’t fit the narrative that the church often tells of those who are suffering
Tayna explains her practice of retelling stories in Scripture with an understanding that the characters were real people with real emotions, and she discusses how she has learned to see parts of her own story in their suffering
Tanya ends by reminding listeners that “we worship a God that is deeply emotional, moved by suffering, weeps with us, and will one day make all things new.”
After Tanya’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss how we do or don’t tell the truth about our emotions and what it means that God is an emotional God
Jeff discusses how shows like Heartstopper attempt to tell narratives from the margins and why we need more of this kind of storytelling
Sarah and Jeff close by talking about how expansive the story of God is and how we work towards finding ourselves and our neighbors in that story

Evolving Faith Conference

Podcast After Party (Community Discussion)

A Messy, Mysterious Faith with Pete Enns May 25, 2022

Pete tells the story of his own evolving faith and what he learned about being born of the spirit as he wrestled with questions and doubts. He discusses how the work of the spirit can often feel like a loss of control and a moving away from a spirituality dependent on systems and certainty. Pete reminds listeners that clarity is often the first thing you need to let go of as you make the choice between fear and trust. After Pete’s talk, Jeff and Sarah discuss the struggle and the beauty of letting go of old systems and what it really means to have “faith like a child.”

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The River of Grace, with Jeff Chu May 18, 2022

Jeff takes us to Ezekiel 47, where the prophet Ezekiel was exiled from all that he has known. As a divinely appointed tour guide gives Ezekiel a vision of renewal and reconstruction, he sees a river flowing out from the restored sanctuary. Jeff asks listeners to consider the same question posed by the tour guide to Ezekiel, “Human one, what do you see?” Jeff explains that this is the invitation still given to us, to see what’s possible and to discern our own role in bringing life and flourishing all around us. Jeff encourages us to remember that it’s not true flourishing if only some of us are flourishing and ends by reminding listeners, “Your reconstruction is not just for you.” Afterward, Jeff and Sarah discuss the communal call of Scripture that defies the individualism of the Western church, and they challenge us to breathe life into each other as the family of God. Evolving Faith Conference

Who Told You That You Had To Fit?, with Chanequa Walker-Barnes May 11, 2022

In this episode of The Evolving Faith podcast, we hear from Dr. Chanequa Walker-Barnes as she asks the question, “Who told you that you had to fit?” She discusses the exhaustion that comes with trying to make yourself fit in spaces where you feel like a square peg in a round hole. Describing her own personal experiences, Dr. Walker-Barnes tells us her story of needing to walk away from churches and systems for a season in order to remember who she is and how she experiences God. She encourages listeners to reclaim their own spiritual lineage, traditions, practices, and identities and reminds us that even when we don’t fit, we’re still tethered to God. Following Dr. Walker-Barnes's talk, Jeff and Sarah talk about their own stories of feeling like they didn’t belong and how their understanding of church and belonging have evolved and continue to evolve. Show Notes

A Subsistence Spirituality, with Barbara Brown Taylor May 04, 2022

In our first episode of season 2, Barbara Brown Taylor discusses the realities of spiritual wilderness and asks us to consider what it looks like to have a faith lean enough to survive. She explains that a true wilderness means coming to the end of our perceived safety and learning that we’ve never really had any guarantees all along. Barbara says that grief is necessary for the vitality of the soul and asks us to imagine what subsistence spirituality would mean in our own wilderness. Then Jeff and Sarah discuss the unforeseen ways grief has impacted our lives since this talk was given at the 2019 conference and the beauty of a lean spirituality that can carry us through loss.

A Benediction for Season One Oct 28, 2020

The finale of Season One! In this episode, Jeff and Sarah offer their reflections on the season, their gratitude to you, dear listeners, and finally fill out the Evolving Faith Podcast bingo card for good. Then, weaving together the entire season’s talks and moments throughout the season, they offer a Benediction for the Wanderers as we all move forward or onward from here.

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The Wilderness, Spiritual Gifts, and Gender-Expansive Christians Oct 21, 2020

In this life-giving episode we are thrilled to welcome Austen Hartke, Michiko Bown-Kai, and Rev. Dr. Christina Beardsley as they each present a talk about evolving faith through the lens of their trans and/or non-binary identities. Then our guests join Sarah and Jeff in a wise and beautiful conversation on wilderness, hope, paradox, and how the fullness of identity can be a form of resistance and prophetic witness. (Rated Explicit for profanity.)

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Identity, Belonging, and Disability Oct 14, 2020

In a beautiful, wise experience, we are thrilled to welcome Stephanie Tait, Derrick Dawson, and Raedorah Stewart as they each present a talk about identity, belonging, and an evolving faith through the lens of disability. Then our guests join Sarah and Jeff in a life-giving conversation on identity, hope, beauty, belonging, covenant, and perceiving the new thing God is doing.

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Art, Embodiment, and Healing with Audrey Assad and A'Driane Nieves Oct 07, 2020

This week, we hear from two incredible artists: Audrey Assad and A’Driane Nieves as they engage with art, embodiment, healing, and an evolving faith. These talks remind us that artists bring to their work sorrows and joys, griefs and delights, which a canvas or a song can hint at. But there’s always more. Then Sarah and Jeff have a conversation about dancing, embodiment, creativity, and much more. P.S. Please note that some aspects of this episode do discuss themes of sexual abuse and violence so please listen only at your discretion. Look after yourselves, friends.

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Terraforming with Propaganda Sep 30, 2020

This week, we hear from poet, political activist, and rapper Propaganda. Prop takes us on a journey into how music and art can help form an evolving faith. You’ll be immersed in what turned out to be one part beautiful poetic experience and one part off-the-wall, incredibly profound philosophy lecture. And maybe that’s the magic of Prop: he defies categorization. He leads us through the wilderness to find God, find possibility, find truth in every corner of creation - including Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby (you’ll see, we promise). Then Sarah and Jeff have a conversation about finding God in unexpected places, cheerleader movies, and learning to terraform - world build - with God.

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Wonder, Welcome, and Communion with Kaitlin Curtice and Jonathan Martin Sep 23, 2020

This week, we hear from the Poet and the Preacher. Join us as Kaitlin Curtice leads us through a winsome and beautiful invitation to the light still glimmering around us and then gather with us at the Communion tradition for Evolving Faith as Jonathan Martin preaches about the welcome of Jesus to the Table. Then Sarah and Jeff talk about where they’re experiencing those glimmers of light right now, their own experiences with communion at Evolving Faith, and together recall some of Rachel Held Evans’ passion for the sacraments together. One note: we apologize for the audio quality of Jeff’s microphone during portions of today’s podcast. Thanks for your patience!

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Relationships, Parenting, and Navigating an Evolving Faith Sep 16, 2020

For the first - but not last time - we’re featuring a double-header of talks from Evolving Faith. First Cindy Wang Brandt explores parenting while your faith is evolving, placing the priority on giving our children spiritual autonomy and the freedom to explore and thrive. Then Kathy Escobar addresses what we gain in the wilderness when we are honest within our relationships from learning to live with disapproval to the opportunity to be a healthier, more integrated person. Finally, Sarah and Jeff have a conversation about how Sarah’s raising her kids with an awareness of an evolving faith, Jeff’s experiences within a more communal culture rather than an individualistic culture, and what it means to untangle our view of our parents or faith tradition from God and live honestly in relationship.

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Enemies, Empathy, and Shalom with Osheta Moore Sep 09, 2020

Politics Formed by Faith with Nish Weiseth Sep 02, 2020

This week, we go all in on politics, spiritual formation, and the call of this moment in time before the American election. In this fiery talk, Nish Weiseth calls her fellow white evangelical Americans to account and argues that politics are the single largest systemic tool that we have at our disposal with which we can love our neighbor. Simply put, politics for the Christian should be institutional neighborliness. Then Jeff and Sarah have a wide-ranging conversation about the international dominance of the American evangelical experiment, spiritual formation, politics, and the intention, action, and movement we desperately need right now to move toward just a little more love every day. P.S. This episode has an Explicit rating for language.

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Under the Wings of the Spirit with Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns Aug 26, 2020

Does an evolving faith mean everyone has to think or worship like a white Westerner? or throw the faith of their grandmothers away? How do we read the Bible with the Spirit? In this episode, Pentecostal theologian Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns explores reclaiming wonder and curiosity and humility about our relationship with the Bible as an icon. Using an oral tradition that includes storytellers, she broods over the text with us and invites us to remember the unnamed daughters and sons and gather under the wings of the Spirit. Then Sarah dusts off all her Pentecostal language as she and Jeff have a conversation about gatekeepers, ancestors, the Bible as icon, and living in the age of apocalypse. P.S. One word of caution: some of the themes in this talk could be triggering for some listeners as we discuss themes of rape and violence. Please listen at your discretion.

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An Evolving Faith Is Still Faith with Pete Enns Aug 19, 2020

Have you ever been called a heretic? Unfaithful? Ostracized for changing your mind on something related to your faith or theology? Well, this week’s episode with popular biblical scholar, podcaster, and author Pete Enns is for you. Pete talks about the biblical mandate for an evolving faith, illustrates this concept through the stories of Jonah and Job, and the sacred responsibility we all bear of reimagining Scripture. Then Sarah and Jeff have a conversation about how taking the Bible seriously doesn’t mean taking it literally, their favorite stories that illustrate an evolving faith from the Bible, and the permission we all need to take a break from reading the Bible.

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Your Woke-ness is Not Worship with Sandra Maria Van Opstal Aug 12, 2020

This week, pastor, activist, and liturgist Sandra Maria Van Opstal challenges us to reimagine the intersection of worship and justice. She explores the impact of white supremacy on an evolving faith, worship, and justice work, leads us to learn from the global church and how justice is sustained. She then places a demand on all of us to move forward and engage. Then Sarah and Jeff have a conversation about the prophet Amos, the balance of contemplation with action, and discomfort. P.S. There is some grown-up language in this episode. Again.

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The End of the World with Mike McHargue Aug 05, 2020

Mike McHargue is one part Bill Nye the Science Guy and one part Mr. Rogers - and one part Baptist preacher. This week, Science Mike delivers a hilarious and devastating call to repentance as he expounds on climate change, the limits of science, the possibilities of faith, and the end of the world. Then Sarah and Jeff explore mysticism, certainty, and leaving religion.

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A Willingness to Be Disturbed with Dr. Wil Gafney Jul 29, 2020

In this episode, famed Hebrew Bible scholar Dr. Wil Gafney offers us the opportunity to experience evolution in our interpretation of Scripture through the richness of womanist biblical interpretation. Sarah and Jeff explore how an evolution of faith necessitates an evolution in our relationship with Scripture, learning how to integrate the harder stories of the Bible without explaining them away, welcoming other collaborators to our understanding of faith, and Sarah’s own evolution since writing “Jesus Feminist.”

P.S. One word of caution: some of the themes in this talk could be triggering for some listeners as we discuss themes of rape, incest, and violence. Please listen at your discretion.

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Welcome to the Wilderness with Sarah Bessey Jul 22, 2020

We revisit the conference opening message from our co-host Sarah Bessey as she welcomes everyone to the wilderness, talks about grief, and - of course - prays for the days ahead of us.

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Belonging, Courage, and Evangelical Darlings with Jen Hatmaker Jul 15, 2020

Jen Hatmaker was the darling of evangelical Christian women until the price of belonging became her integrity.

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The Theology of Compost with Jeff Chu Jul 08, 2020

On Episode 3 of the Evolving Faith Podcast, Sarah gets to make Jeff super uncomfortable as they listen to and then discuss Jeff's talk on the theology of the compost. He shares his conviction that God has written redemption into creation itself and humanity's call to embrace the transformative power of worms.

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Climbing the Mountain of Injustice with Austin Channing Brown Jul 01, 2020

For episode 2, Sarah and Jeff revisit Austin Channing Brown's bring-the-house-down sermon from Evolving Faith 2018. They reflect on what they've learned and experienced since that day as well as how Austin's words planted the seeds for some major shifts in their own lives.

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Evolution, Apocalypse, and Remembering Rachel Held Evans Jun 24, 2020

In the premiere episode of The Evolving Faith Podcast, we hear a talk given at the Evolving Faith gathering in 2018 by the late Rachel Held Evans, author, speaker, and co-founder of Evolving Faith. She talks about a tough and tender faith and what that calls us to when we encounter the oppressive, dehumanizing and unjust forces working in the world. We also welcome Rachel's husband, Dan Evans, and her sister, Amanda Held Opelt, who share with us about what gives them hope one year after Rachel's death.

2023 Evolving Faith Conference

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