The Divine Council Worldview Podcast

EP033: Genesis 27 & Jacob's Stolen Blessing Nov 17, 2024

Translator

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 27 and Isaac’s mistaken blessing of Jacob over Esau. They begin by noting the cultural significance of a father blessing a favored son, and discuss possible reasons for Isaac’s decision to bless Esau over Jacob. They then walk through the narrative itself, especially taking note of how Jacob’s decision to say “your elohim” to his father fit the theology of his non-Yahwist brother. It is interesting that the Quran does not record this incident between the brothers at all. The conversation concludes with a discussion on Jacob's journey of faith and his tenuous path to Yahweh worship.

EP032: Armor Up: Dr. Natalie Atwell’s Journey in Counseling, Missions, and Spiritual Warfare Nov 10, 2024

Translator Translator

In this episode, Rich and Mel interview Dr. Natalie Atwell, a therapist and adjunct professor, reveals how she integrates the Divine Counsel worldview into her counseling practice. She passionately discusses her work in missions and caregiver ministry, highlighting the significance of understanding spiritual warfare and the supernatural when addressing trauma and mental health. The conversation explores cultural challenges in ministry, the impact of mysticism and superstition abroad, and the urgent need for the church to confront spiritual abuse and offer healing environments. Dr. Atwell also touches on loving others through disagreements, the rise of narcissism in the church, and the vital support needed for missionaries. Through her book, I Can Do Anything in the Right Pair of Shoes, Dr. Atwell inspires listeners to put on the armor of God, foster godly relationships, and embark on a journey to discover their true identity in Christ.

Social Links:

Mental Warrior course (for the $50 off)

Website: mentalwarriorconsulting.com

IG: instagram.com/mentalwarriorconsulting

IG: @drnatalieatwell

IG: @natalieatwellcounseling

FB: https://www.facebook.com/AtwellCounseling

EP031: Genesis 25-26 & the Genealogy of Ishmael Nov 03, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 25 & 26. They open their conversation by mentioning the “two powers in heaven” idea that will be the subject of a future episode. They note that the genealogy of Ishmael plays a significant role in the Jew-Gentile divide throughout history. They also discuss the early relationship between Jacob and Esau, preparing to question which god these men worship according the biblical record. They conclude by exploring the themes of God’s involvement in human mistakes, the significance of name and their meanings in ancient culture, and the question of God’s knowledge of the future.

EP030: Genesis 23-24 & Finding a Bride for Isaac Oct 27, 2024

Translator

In this episode, Ronn and Mike consider Genesis 23 & 24, where Abraham puts his final affairs in order by finding a bride for Isaac. Throughout their discussion they explore the concept of the phrase “the god of” as applied to the stories of Isaac and Ishmael, the role of divine messengers during Eliezer’s search for Isaac’s bride, and the significance of Yahweh’s name and character for those who are committed to following him.

EP029: Genesis 22 & the Sacrifice of Isaac Oct 21, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss the famous “Akeda” story in Genesis 22, where Abraham obeyed the command of God to sacrifice his son Isaac. They consider the theological questions raised by this story, such as why God would ask Abraham to commit murder—and why Abraham would obey. The conversation touches on the cultural context of child sacrifice and the evolving understanding of Yahweh’s character by those who are committed to worship him above every god. They also discuss the concept the possibility of divine “portals,” or specific locations where divine beings have made contact with humans. They conclude by wondering whether the substitution portrayed in the binding of Isaac is a symbol for Jesus’ death.

EP028: Healing from Trauma: Navigating Dissociation and Spiritual Abuse Oct 06, 2024

In this episode, Rich and Mel interview Fern and Audrey, who share their work helping survivors of trauma-based mind control, reflecting on their personal experiences and the impact of Dr. Mike Heiser's Divine Council worldview, especially through his books, *The Myth That is True*, *The Facade* and *The Portent*. They explore the complexities of dissociation, discussing how different parts of a person’s identity function and how to discern between dissociated personalities and demonic possession. Fern shares a powerful story about working with a survivor of satanic ritual abuse, highlighting the challenges of spiritual discernment. Throughout the conversation, they stress the importance of love, empathy, and understanding in the healing process, and the critical need for education and training to address spiritual abuse in churches.

EP027: Genesis 20-21 & the Relationship between Ismael and Isaac Oct 01, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 20 and 21, examining the birth of Isaac and the relationship between Ishmael and Isaac. They work through the significance of Ishmael in the biblical narrative, as well as the meaning of the terms 'righteous' and 'election' in the OT. They agree that there is ambiguity surrounding the identity of the divine being in the story of Abraham and Ishmael, raising questions about loyalty and divine interaction.

EP026: Genesis 19 & the Destruction of Sodom Sep 23, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 19 and the destruction of Sodom. They explore how a divine council worldview arises directly from the cultural context of the ancient Near East when working through this narrative. They conclude their discussion by thinking through the significance of the Hebrew word 'chesed' and the tragic outcome for Lot and his daughters.

EP025: Genesis 18 & Abraham's Three Heavenly Visitors Sep 16, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike explore Genesis 18's story of Abraham and Sarah being told by three messengers that they would soon bear a son to fulfill the promises of God. The biggest shock of the story, of course, will be to hear one of the visitors speak as though he is Yahweh! Ronn and Mike consider the possible options for identifying this messenger, leaning into the relationship ejoyned between messengers and senders as practiced in ancient Near Eastern cultures. The episode also considers what Abraham likely understood by his use of the important words righteous and wicked (18:25).

EP024: Christus Victor and the Divine Council: A Church's Journey in Palmdale, CA Aug 26, 2024

In this episode, Rich and Mel interview Pastor Anthony Delgado of Palmdale Church, California, who dives deep into the transformative power of Dr. Michael Heiser's Divine Council worldview and its impact on his predominantly Hispanic, working-class congregation. Anthony shares how his church has woven this theology into their structure, striking a unique balance between formality and community. From addressing real-life challenges like substance abuse to creating an inclusive environment for special needs families, Pastor Delgado discusses the importance of discipleship, allegiance to Christ, and expanding our understanding of the Gospel. A powerful conversation on faith, transformation, and the role of Jesus as Christus Victor.

EP023: Genesis 17 & the Covenant of Ishmael Aug 12, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 17 and the story of Ishmael. They explore the possibility that Ishamel made a covenant with a divine being other than Yahweh, even a god disloyal to Yahweh. They discuss the theological and historical implications of this view, particularly in relation to the rise of Muslim tradition and its attachment to Ishmael. The episode concludes with a discussion on the significance of circumcision, its meaning in the ancient world, and its possible significance as a sign of the covenant between Abraham and Yahweh.

EP022: Genesis 16 and the Angel of the Lord Aug 04, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 16 and the being known as "the Angel of the Lord." They begin by acknowledging that differences of opinion will be common when dealing with the word 'angel,' the transliteration of a Latin word appearing in the Wycliffe Bible of the 14th century. Ronn argues that 'angel' does not accurately represent the Hebrew term for 'messenger' (mal'ak) because it has become packed with unhelpful connotations of meaning over time. Ronn and Mike conclude the podcast by exploring the use of first person speech patterns used by messengers (both human and divine) in the ancient Near East.

EP021: Genesis 15 and the Land Promise Jul 28, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike conclude their study of Genesis 15. Their topics of conversation include the meaning of righteousness and its connection to loyalty and promise-keeping in the story of Abraham. They also consider the significance of the land promise as the early patriarchs understood it and how it evolves throughout the biblical narrative. They conclude with an exploration of the concept of "nationing" and the possible role of borders in the new creation.

EP020: Transforming Perspectives: From Church Teachings to Real-World Impact Jul 22, 2024

Step into a world where the supernatural intersects with everyday life. In this episode, Mel is once again joined with co-host, Rich, as they interview Pastor Jim Bergen from Flatirons Community Church, Boulder, CO, and delve into the journey of his awakening to a worldview shaped by the Divine Council and its profound impact on our reality.

Imagine the transformative power when this perspective infuses teaching, discipleship, and spiritual warfare within the church. Yet, bringing this understanding into congregational life isn’t without challenges. It demands careful preparation, defining terms, and exploring the significance of sacred spaces.

But how does this cosmic perspective translate into practical application? Discover how recognizing our creation in God's image influences our approach in society and shapes how we treat others with dignity. Moreover, the church isn’t just a place of worship; it's a beacon for addressing social challenges and making a positive impact in our communities through both teaching and action. Explore the cosmic geography of peace and its pivotal role in both personal lives and the church’s engagement with society - embracing the importance of confronting life's dark and challenging aspects head-on.

Join us as we navigate the messy and difficult topics that often go unaddressed, guided by a commitment to deep Bible study that will help you make divine council worldview teachings accessible even to new believers.

Don’t miss out on this eye-opening journey that promises to reshape your understanding of faith, community, and the supernatural forces at play in our world today.

EP019: Genesis 15 and Abraham's Loyalty Jun 30, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss the concept of Abraham's righteousness as won through his allegiance to Yahweh in the story of Genesis 15. They explore the idea of believing loyalty (Hebrew, aman) and how it is often misunderstood in evangelical circles when defining the gospel. They highlight the importance of understanding the OT cultural context behind the concept of faith, even recommending that we take the English word "faith" out of our vocabulary when trying to explain the story of Abraham's commitment to Yahweh. The conversation concludes by summarizing the NT meaning of what it means to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ.

EP018: Genesis 14: Melchizedek & The God Most High Jun 23, 2024

In this episode Ronn and Mike discuss the meeting of Abraham and Melchizedek in Genesis 14, even considering whether this kind of story supports the idea of divine portals or “heavenly gates” in the biblical narrative (Gen 12:8; 13:4; 28:11-12; 35:7). Most interesting to this story, of course, is their joint realization that they worshipped the same deity (el-elyon, ‘the high god’ cp. Pss 9:2; 7:17; 82:6; Isaiah 14:14; Luke 1:20, 32). This suggests that Yahweh (who had not revealed his name to either man at this point) was actively working behind the scenes in the lives of both individuals long before they met.

EP017: Genesis 12 & 13: Undoing the Covenants of Babel Jun 20, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike recommend that Genesis 12 and 13—the story of Abraham beginning to worship Yahweh while rejecting his tribal gods of Babylon—sets the framing story for the Bible as a whole. These early narratives are not concerned with sin and forgiveness, in other words, nor even the expectation of a Messiah. They instead answer the question of which deity a person needs to worship in order to be blessed and to be a blessing to others. It is suggested that a Creation/Covenants/Crisis model of the Old Testament's big story should replace the Creation/Crisis/Covenant outline that we so often hear about. The stories of Genesis 12 & 13 tell of a normal man facing natural fears who yet covenants with the right god. The fact that Yahweh would have been understood as a minority (even unknown) deity at this point makes the plot all the more fascinating.

EP016: Divine Foundations: Embracing Obedience in Everyday Missions Jun 13, 2024

Get ready to be inspired, challenged, and equipped to make a difference in the world around you! In this episode, Mel delves into the transformative power of meaningful interactions and the importance of open minds and hearts when sharing Biblical insights. He emphasizes putting knowledge into action in making disciples, urging listeners to share their personal stories of divine guidance in everyday moments. Mel expounds on missionary work, highlighting that it’s not just about far-off lands, but also about nurturing relationships within our own families. Amidst the discussion, Mel navigates the poignant absence of his co-host Rich, who has been battling medical issues and will be back in future episodes, reminding us all of the power of prayer and support. Tune in to discover how you can be part of God’s grand plan and make a lasting impact right where you are!

EP015: Genesis 12 & the God’s Covenant with Abraham Jun 04, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike recommend that the principal problem of mankind as described up through Genesis 11—the worldwide worship of other gods—begins to meet its solution in Genesis 12 as a covenant is cut between Abram and Yahweh. The promise of this agreement, requiring faithfulness from both parties, included both individual prosperity for Abram and ultimate blessing for the entire world. In conclusion, it is recommended that the climax to this story is signaled through Abram’s “calling on the name of Yahweh” (12:8) as opposed to any of the deities he had worshipped in Babylon. The Bible's most famous convert now awaits a family and an eternal inheritance.

EP014: Genesis 11 & the Tower of Babel May 28, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike consider the famous story of the Tower of Babel, recommending that the purpose of the Tower was the worship of (and desire to make covenant with) created deities. They note that this event, especially in light of what it signifies in the larger story of the Bible, stands behind the problem that the New Testament gospel will someday solve—the “healing of the nations” (Revelation 22:2) through the unified worship of Yahweh and his Son Jesus Christ.

EP013: The Genealogy of Genesis 10 May 21, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss Genesis 10’s genealogical record between Noah and Abraham. They begin by noting that the story of the curse of Canaan (Ham’s son) likely lays the foundation for Joshua’s later confrontation with pagan worhsip in land of Canaan. They then work their way through the lists of names and tribes in Genesis 10, observing the geographical locations settled by the sons of Noah. More importantly, they show how the text hints toward the loss of Yahweh-worship during this critical period of history. The episode ends at the foot of the Tower of Babel, predicting how this event will lead not only to the division of human language, but to the establishment of the worship of other gods through the known world.

EP012: Crossing Cultures: Superstition, Scripture, and the Missionary Mandate May 13, 2024

Join us for a thought-provoking discussion as we delve into personal journeys shaped by 'The Unseen Realm' and the profound impact of the supernatural on missions. Delve into the intriguing intersections of superstition, idolatry, and missionary work across diverse cultures. From pagan traditions in Christianity to demon possession in India, we explore how context shapes our understanding of scripture and the global dissemination of the Biblical message with knowledge. Uncover the epic narrative of the Bible alongside similar tales worldwide, while examining the crucial role of like-minded communities and the influence of fatherhood in our quest to spread the message of salvation.

EP011: God’s Response to a Divine Insurgency May 05, 2024

This episode finds Ronn and Mike discussing Genesis 6-9, which begins with that odd story of the “sons of god” producing nephilim through human women (6:1-4). They agree with early Christian and Jewish tradition in viewing this story as an intense divine rebellion which led to God’s decision to destroy the world with a flood. They consider what this account might mean to the larger narrative of the Bible, admitting in the end that we are left with many unanswered questions. Their conversation then notes how Noah's righteousness (taken to be his simple worship of the creator God) is compared to the corruption that had overrun humanity. The episode concludes with an overview of the year-long journey that Noah’s family took on the ark, comparing this Genesis account with similar flood records in other ancient Near Eastern cultures. At least one objective becomes evident as this story ends: God is starting over, now with a new Adam named Noah.

EP010: The Genealogy of Genesis 5 Apr 29, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike review the place of Genesis 5 in the early story of the Bible. They suspect that this list of fathers and sons was formatted to suit a literary purpose as well as to recognize that a line of Yahweh-worshippers could be identified between Adam and Noah. Enoch is noted as among these righteous men, mysteriously disappearing off the earth after faithfully walking with his God. At the conclusion of this episode they introduce the pivotal narrative which took place during the days of Noah: a certain number of bene elohim (a Hebrew phrase signifying god-class or divine beings) became involved with the human race resulting in the birth of nephilim, “famous men” known to the original readers. This is truly one of the most unusual stories in all the Bible—yet it is also a significant story in the development of a Divine Council worldview.

EP009: Did Cain Worship another God? Apr 22, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike discuss the events described in Genesis 4. They challenge the popular notion that God was frustrated with Cain's vegetable offering, suspecting that something much more ominous was at stake. After surveying the story of Cain and his expanding family, they recommend that the last verse of the chapter offers the necessary clue for understanding the chapter as a whole—where we hear that Yahweh-worship eventually returned to Adam's family through Enosh, the son of Seth (4:26). Thus Genesis 4 is describing something worse than just the spread of sin; it is the spread of non-Yahwistic worship through Adam's own son. It will come as no surprise to find that the New Testament labels Cain as "of the evil one" (1 John 3:12).

EP008: Fond Memories & Future Vision Apr 15, 2024

In this episode, hosts Rich and Mel share personal anecdotes about their relationship with Dr. Michael Heiser, and reminisce on how they first met. They then delve into their shared passion and vision of integrating Dr. Heiser's teachings with the core message of the Gospel. Together, they aim to foster discipleship and inspire listeners to embark on their own transformative journey.

EP007: Digging Around the Garden of Eden Apr 08, 2024

In this episode, Ronn and Mike return to Genesis 2 & 3 and ponder some of the specific stories related to the Garden of Eden. What did the two trees mean, or represent? How was Eve "made," and what was her relationship to Adam? Who or what was the serpent? Even more importantly, what was the temptation that the serpent presented to the human pair? Was it to become like Yahweh, or to become a divine being, even like the snake himself?

EP006: Interview with Matthew Bates, Author of Why the Gospel? Apr 01, 2024

In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, Ronn and Mike interview Dr. Matthew Bates, author of Why the Gospel? Living the Good News of King Jesus with Purpose (Christianity Today’s 2024 book award winner in the category of Popular Theology). Their conversation surveys the narrative nature of the gospel story, the meaning of divine kingship in the first century, and the modern implications of living under Jesus’ sovereignty. In the end, Bates sees the gospel as much more than the forgiveness of sins. He believes that being a Christian includes both an intentional confession of Jesus as King and a commitment of allegiance to this King.

Get the book here: Why the Gospel? Living the Good News of King Jesus with Purpose

EP005: The Story of Genesis 3: Does it Predict that Jesus Will Crush Satan? Mar 25, 2024

In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu discuss the temptation and fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. They debate the possible options presented by the serpent to Eve: was the temptation to become like “God,” or to become like himself, an elohim? And what did it mean for Adam and Eve to fear their “nakedness” when Yahweh entered the garden? The curses upon the snake, Eve, and Adam are lastly considered, specifically the famous “proto-gospel” passage of 3:15 which finds the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. Could this “seed” be referring to Jesus?

EP004: Let's Consider if Genesis 1 & 2 Describe Separate Creation Stories Mar 18, 2024

In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu discuss the creation account of humanity and the implications of being made to be like/as divine beings (the “us” of Genesis 1:26). They “test drive” the possibility that Genesis 1 and 2 offer separate creation accounts, with Adam and Eve being formed and placed into a garden after an existing world had been populated with many plants, animals, and humans. The benefit of this option, as they understand it, is the later narrative of Genesis 4, where Cain appears to enter a populated world after his murder of Abel. Ronn refers to a recent book by S. Joshua Swamidass (“The Genealogical Adam and Eve”) which gives scientific support to the idea that a historical Adam and Eve provide the genealogical ancestry for the entire human race.

The Genealogical Adam and Eve: The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry by S. Joshua Swamidass

EP003: Introducing Two Friends to the Podcast Mar 11, 2024

In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu introduce two friends who will be contributing to upcoming shows. Rich Baker and Mel were close followers and friends of Dr. Heiser and his ministry, and their goal will be to interview people from various cultures who have been impacted by Mike’s work. They will enjoy recounting where a divine council worldview has been introduced into local ministries and how it has made a difference. Because the seduction of other gods is still very real in our modern world, understanding what it means to worship Yahweh and his Son Jesus has never been more crucial. The speakers express gratitude for the opportunity to connect with each other and witness this unique work in bringing people together for the sake of Christ.

EP002: Creation and the Image of God in Genesis 1 Mar 04, 2024

In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu discuss the concept of the Divine Council worldview and its relevance to the study of Genesis 1. They explore the translation and meaning of the Hebrew word elohim, which is often translated as ‘God’ in English. They also discuss the plural use of elohim and the importance of reading non-evangelical scholarship to gain a broader understanding of the biblical text. The episode concludes with a discussion on the interpretation of the days of creation in Genesis 1, as well as the significance of the phrase ‘let us make man in our image.

EP001: Introduction to the Divine Council Podcast Feb 23, 2024

In this episode of the Divine Council Worldview Podcast, Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu introduce themselves and discuss their background in theology. They explain that their goal is to move the discussion of a divine council worldview forward and provide a fresh perspective on the Bible. They also discuss their personal journeys to faith and how they became interested in the divine council worldview. The episode concludes with a discussion on the definition of a divine council worldview and its key principles. In this conversation, Ronn Johnson and Mike Chu discuss various aspects of the Divine Council worldview. They explore the idea that the gospel is about loyalty to Jesus and God, and how believers can become divine in the next age. They also touch on the role of gods in the next world and the concepts of theosis and glorification. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the topics often discussed within a Divine Council worldview and the plan to explore Genesis in future episodes.

Our TOPPODCAST Picks

Follow Us

Stay Connected

The Divine Council Worldview Podcast

Related Podcasts

Links

Stay Connected