Writing Short Stories, Publishing Collaboration, And Podcasting, With Clay Vermulm
Aug 25, 2025
What if you could turn a monthly writing challenge into a successful book collaboration—all while recording the entire creative process as a podcast? What if hand-selling locally sells more books than online marketing? Clay Vermulm talks about his creative and business processes.
This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com
Clay Vermulm is a horror novelist and short story author, co-author of Rain Shadows: Dark Tales from Washington State along with Tamara Kaye Sellman, and a podcaster at Fermented Fiction and Beneath the Rain Shadow.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
How a chance meeting at a sci-fi critique group led to a successful horror writing collaboration
The unique podcast-to-book model: using monthly prompts and live critiques to create Rain Shadows
How they've sold more books by hand than online—plus specific tactics for face-to-face selling
Essential tips for being a better critique partner without destroying someone's confidence
The business side of co-authoring: 50/50 splits, paying contributors, and why royalty tracking is a nightmare
Jo: Clay Vermulm is a horror novelist and short story author, co-author of Rain Shadows: Dark Tales from Washington State along with Tamara Kaye Sellman, and a podcaster at Fermented Fiction and Beneath the Rain Shadow. So welcome to the show, Clay.
Clay: Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be on here.
Jo: Lots for us to talk about. So first up—
Tll us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.
Clay: Like a lot of people, I've been writing since I was a little kid with crayons and everything like that, so I think a lot of writers out there can relate to that story. More specifically, I went to college for English and history.
Like a lot of people, I think I was told through a good portion of my life this sort of narrative—and I think it's ironic, right? We tell people, “Oh, follow your dreams.”
If people do something creative when they're a kid or when they're younger, we encourage that. We parade that, we champion that. Then as soon as you turn 18, we're like, “Okay, time to make money now. Do something that's a real job.”
I always resented that, and once I got to college, I had a really good English professor who taught a class on actual publishing. His whole class was about how to submit a short story and how to go out there and try to get your work published.
Your final for the class was just to actually show him that you had submitted a short story to a professional market and written one, because we wrote and critiqued them throughout class.
I grew up in rural Montana, so I hadn't had a lot of opportunities to do critique groups or writing groups or theater or any of that until I went to college. Once I did and saw some of the avenues you could take to really pursue a life in creativity, I was totally hooked. That's where it officially began for me.
Honestly, I owe it largely to theater. I got into theater and I went to college on a wrestling scholarship. I ended up dropping out of that and going into the community theater, doing some shows, learning to write stage plays and standup comedy and music.
I tried writing everything and eventually landed on books because, as you know Joanna, you can carve out your own path in indie publishing in books, and you don't have to rely on like a million other people like you do in a play or a film.
That's why I've focused on writing novels and short stories in recent years, just to get some of my stories finished and get them out there.
Jo: So did you ever get a “real job” as college people like to call it, or—
Have you managed a creative portfolio career, as we call it now?
Clay: I'm finally getting to where that is my full-time job. For about the last three years, I've been a full-time writer—freelance stuff, magazines, editing gigs, kind of patching all that together with what I publish and put out there and a bunch of other groups I work with.
So I'm there now, but it's only been about the last three years. Up until then I've worked lots of side jobs, kitchen jobs, a teaching job, and all kinds of stuff like that.
I freelanced in the film industry here in Seattle for a solid five, six years as well. When I was doing that, I was just taking whatever new job would come my way. So I did a lot of production assistant stuff and grip and electric stuff.
Jo: I think this is so important because I feel like a lot of people do think, “Oh well, it's just the one book.” Maybe they do a degree like yours in English and then they think, “Okay, I just need to write one book and that's it.”
But what you're talking about—this sort of patchwork of all these different creative things, plus bits and bobs of jobs—is really the reality, isn't it? I certainly don't know anyone who just writes one book and then that's it, they're done.
Clay: Yes, that is certainly an illusion, and a loosely held one at that. These days, I don't know anyone who's tried selling a book who still believes that.
Jo: But perhaps if you haven't yet finished that first book, you can still believe that. It's great that your professor encouraged you all to submit because I guess you also started getting rejections pretty early, right?
Are most of your works short stories?
Because I saw from your website you do a lot of short stories.
Clay: That's kind of become my favorite medium, my favorite form. I like editing too, because I really like to bring other artists, other authors together on projects. I love to showcase things that are really beautiful and strong works of fiction, especially in the short market, because there's just sort of a thing that happens with short stories.
I think that a lot of writers read short stories. They are harder to get out to your actual larger reader base. Luckily in horror, I think there's been quite a movement towards reading short fiction, but even still, people primarily like to read novels or longer work for the larger reader base, it seems.
I love taking every opportunity I can to collaborate with people and to bring awesome artists together on projects and to get these stories that—even if they've been printed somewhere else before—to get them back out there.
When I find them and I'm like, “This story's awesome,” I see if I can get a reprint and make an anthology with it, just doing those kinds of projects. It's always been really rewarding to me. I think I like writing short stories because it also allows me to explore that editing side of the work as well.
It's funny you said writers read short stories, and I was just trying to question that in my mind, like, is that true? I think you are definitely right because many of us want to write them so we read them.
I definitely remember reading the Roald Dahl Tales of the Unexpected back in the eighties, and those still shaped me. Then I was thinking about the ones that I buy now and they are pretty much all horror, which is really interesting that you said that. So people listening, definitely short stories.
Let's talk about one of your collaborations then. You have this unusual origin story for the new collection called Rain Shadows.
Talk about how Rain Shadows started, and the prompts, and the podcast, and why the hell you did it this way.
Clay: It all ties together nicely. This story came out of a critique group where I met Tamara for the first time. I found this critique group randomly on Meetup, and it's actually a fantasy sci-fi critique group.
It's still going in North Seattle right now. It's a great group of people. If you happen to be a writer of sci-fi and fantasy, they're on Meetup as North Seattle Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers.
I met Tamara there and I was the only horror writer, which happens a lot in critique groups as well. You show up being the only horror writer is a common enough thing. Tamara came in with also some pretty dark stories that she was workshopping. It was like a bunch of dream sequences from her novel that she was working on.
As soon as I read her stuff, I was like, “This person is the person out of this group that I want to really work with. I hope she likes my stories because her writing's awesome.” We had a good chemistry.
We have a similar kind of style. I wouldn't say writing style, but we have a similar flavor of the kind of story we like to tell. We both liked the slow burn, the more psychological angle on horror, and it was just a good match.
From that moment on, I knew I wanted to work with Tamara at some time, in some way. I was thinking of the story I sort of told you earlier about how a lot of writers need that person. For a lot of people, that might be you, Joanna, in this podcast.
So that person to tell them that, “No, you can do this. There are avenues forward into the publishing industry for the everyday writer.” I wanted to show people that.
One of the biggest things you have to overcome is that first draft, right?
You have to overcome finishing it, and then showing it to some people, and getting some feedback and starting to polish that thing and edit that thing. You can't edit a blank page.
That's the twofold goal for this project: to both show people how to finish a project and how to kickstart that creativity, which is what we use the prompts for. Then also to show that early editing process and how far a story can come from a rough draft to a completed project.
I wanted to show how you just have to get into it, find somebody you can trust who can give you good feedback, and then work through it together.
Once you get that thing finished and you start editing it, you'll always be surprised how much of the story is in there on the first draft, how much you can bring out, and how much you can lift up and make it whatever you really want to make it.
So that was the goal of Rain Shadows—to encourage finishing your stories and getting through that early editing process to start the journey towards the finished draft and finishing projects, because that really is the hardest thing for a lot of beginning writers, I think.
Jo: Okay, so you didn't really explain the podcast. Tell us—
How is it a podcast with this process?
Because I've co-written with other people and there was certainly no podcasting involved!
Clay: That's fair. The concept of the podcast—it's called Beneath the Rain Shadow—and it is a craft-centric podcast focused around writing and editing short stories into a collection. Then we have collected them into a book, which is called Rain Shadows.
Every episode we alternate. So I would come in with a prompt that I created. I would give it to Tamara. She would write a story in a month's time, and at the end of the month we would record an episode where we critique that rough draft live on the show.
Every prompt was threefold. So they all had a Pacific Northwest location—and if you're not from America, the Pacific Northwest is the northwest Pacific coast corner of the country, like Washington State, Oregon, and Montana, Idaho, those kinds of areas.
We had a Pacific Northwest location, a Pacific Northwest quirk—so something that's funny about the area we live in or eccentric, like beard grooming or driving a Subaru or something like that. Then we had a horror trope—so these are everything from “sex equals death” to slashers or zombies or whatever you want to do.
Those are largely just jumping off points for us. We had a rule to include every part of the prompt in some way, but it could be as small as a character just driving a Subaru or the story could be centered around a Subaru, but it didn't have to.
That's how the podcast worked. We would come with these fun prompts, we would use them to challenge each other. We would use them to mess with each other a little bit because we're good friends.
For example, I did not want to have to write a slasher story, so I gave that to Tamara. Then for revenge, she gave me a zombie story because she knows I hate zombies.
Jo: I mean, to be fair, I do like horror, but I'm not into slasher at all. I also read very few zombies. I read Jonathan Maberry's zombies, but that's about it. This is so interesting to me because, well, one, you mentioned this critique group, this meetup, and two, I think you are just very collaborative, clearly, as a person.
As I said, I have co-written, but I definitely struggle with it. Do you think that you have had to learn techniques of collaboration? Do you think it's part of your personality to be collaborative?
How can we be better collaborators if we feel like, “Oh my goodness, I am not sharing my writing with anyone”?
Clay: That's a great question. I definitely learned a lot. The nice thing about co-writing like a single narrative would be one thing, right? And this isn't necessarily that because we were alternating short stories.
So we definitely co-edited this collection, but we also had the benefit of co-writing individual stories. So we still had final say over our own creative narratives, which I think helped.
I think that kind of collaboration could be a good way to work into it if it's your first time.
You could try collaborating something where you're more co-editing than co-writing everything.
But regardless, I think the key to it is just you have to come into it with an open mind.
You have to come into it feeling ready and malleable, because as we all know, we have to kill our darlings in the writing game. That's just part of it. You're going to have passages of interior monologue or a beautiful conversation that you have to cut from the story because it just doesn't serve the larger goal.
You have to get to that stage of the editing process where you're able to take the feedback of your co-writer effectively and constructively and apply it to the work in a meaningful way.
I find that I always discover that makes the story better. It always does to get good feedback from an experienced collaborator who can bring an objective opinion to it and help you improve it from there. Then you have to make sure to hold onto the essence of the story.
I think the key to writing together is not to look at how they're going to change the story, but looking at it as what they're going to bring to the story.
What about their work or their style of writing or who they are as a person makes them someone you want to collaborate with? Remember that as you're working with them.
What are they bringing to the table that you couldn't?
Because everybody is better than you at something. That's what I love about collaborating the most, everybody can bring something wholly unique. Everybody can tell a story that I could never tell.
That's what makes writing beautiful, right? I want that involved in all of my work if I can. If somebody else can bring their perspective, their vision, their creative power and energy to something I'm working on, it's always going to make my stuff better.
Also, pick your collaborators wisely. Do your research, read their stuff, get to know them as a person before you jump on board. That's important too. I knew very well that I was going to get along with Tamara on multiple levels.
As you've said, this is a podcast too, right? So it's extra tricky. You can't just be a good writer for this project to work. You also have to be good on the podcast, which is an entirely different set of skills.
Jo: I'm still interested in this. So you met this critique group. I've never been in a writer's group. I'm like a super lone wolf kind of writer!
So you talk there about the feedback and the critique in the podcast, Beneath the Rain Shadow. If people listening want to be a better critique partner, so somebody who is able to work with someone in the way that you are, where they're respecting that person's voice, they're respecting what the author wants to do with the story…
So like both you and I don't like slasher stories, but if a friend said, “Okay, I need your feedback on this,” we can't just say, “I don't like that.” I'm really asking—
How do we take our personal preference away in order to be more positive in feedback, but still useful?
I feel like I get so many emails from people that say, “I went to this critique group and I got absolutely slated. I just got destroyed because people were so negative and horrible. They just don't like my stuff.” So how do we tell the difference and help be better critique partners?
Clay: That's a great question, and finding a critique group is difficult. So if you are one of those people out there that's looking for a good critique group and you've just run into a bunch of bad situations, know that that's part of the process. That is normal.
There are good groups out there, and when you find them, they really do help make your work better. I think the key to it, if you're going into it as a critique partner, go into it remembering who you are and why you brought your stuff to the critique group.
Go in remembering what you're looking for from a group, and remembering how hard it is to put a story together and to bring a final story to the page and then share it with the world and put it out there. It's a very vulnerable thing.
Writing is such a lonely game, and the critique group can be a beautiful place to not only share your story and your work, which we all end up sharing with the world eventually, but it's a place where you get to share the process too, and that's the part that's so lonely.
That's the part that the world doesn't know about, right? Unless they're listening to interviews like this and getting that behind the scenes. Your critique group is a chance to go in there and share that whole experience with people who truly understand it.
I think that's always good for people whenever you're working through something difficult like writing. It can be a very difficult game, right? So I would say start with that, and then there are some semantic tips and tricks too.
I try to read every story twice when I critique, if not three times, depending on how confusing the story is or whatever.
One technique I like to use, and Tamara will champion this technique as well: Take the story off your computer and put it on an e-reader or print it out or do something that makes it feel different than a Word document.
E-readers specifically are nice because they format it like a book, and I know it's kind of a dumb little thing, but it flicks a little switch in your brain and then you start reading it differently. You sort of have a different subconscious level of respect for it almost.
I don't know if you've experienced this at all, Joanna, but I find that's really useful for me to put it on a different device, take it off my computer and get the laptop out from in front of me. Then I feel like I'm editing or correcting a homework assignment.
Read it as a reader first and try to really capture the essence of the story.
Try to really look for what is the intentionality of the story, because every writer has that in every story. If you can find that, then the goal is just to help and try to aid in whatever way you can to bring that essence of the story to the surface and make the story more powerful.
You can only offer your subjective opinion, so be conscious of that, right? Everything you are offering is feedback or whatever. You never want to try to rewrite someone's story or tell them how to write.
You want to share your experience as a subjective reader, a consumer of the story itself, and then as a peer and as a writer. If you're going to give feedback, always offer something to go with it that helps bring the essence of the story to the surface.
I think if you could do those things, that's a good place to start on being a good critique partner. If you want to hear a really long rant about it, you can listen to episode one of Beneath the Rain Shadow.
Jo: I was going to say, I mean obviously you and Tamara do that on your show. But I also think those tips are pretty good for your own stories if you can get some distance from it.
Also, I think short stories are great for this kind of critiquing, aren't they? Because if people come with novels, I mean, you can't read a whole novel in that way, and if you get a chapter, then things don't make sense. There are open loops. You don't know all the things.
So short stories, again, you said writers read them because we write them. That's what they are. They're so perfect for this kind of critiquing and getting outside the genre you might usually work in.
Let's get into the business side. You and Tamara have started a new imprint for this and the other projects.
Talk about this, and also the publishing and production process and the marketing, because being a co-producer—and whether you are describing yourselves as co-writers or co-editors—this is difficult.
It is difficult to do the business side just as much as the creative side.
Clay: I'm still figuring out the business side, to be completely honest, when it comes to having an imprint. That is a new experience for me.
I have worked for a couple small indie presses and helped out at a couple other magazines and things like that. I've indie published my own anthologies and my own work, but I've always just done it under my own name and not really worried about that as much.
So doing this joint business venture with Tamara is very interesting, and luckily she has like 40 years of experience in the publishing industry. So she's definitely got that skillset to put together the marketing playbook and put together the timeline and help us stay on track for everything.
My part of that has largely been finding the contacts and utilizing a lot of the tools that I used when I have indie published my own work. So I have a good contact with a guy who's really good at book formatting, copy editing, and proofreading. So I usually go to him for my final stage stuff.
That's JW Donnelly at Dark Forest Press. I definitely recommend him if you need those kinds of late stage publishing services or editing services. He's awesome. So I've had those contacts for a while, and I helped connect some of those dots.
In terms of organizing everything and getting it all laid out, Tamara was largely the instrument of success there. We're trying a lot of things.
You come from a podcast, and one of the reasons I got into podcasting in the first place was actually from—I know you know these guys—Johnny B. Truant and Sean Platt's book Write. Publish. Repeat.
They talked about finding a way to create content that works for you and to be present in the writing community in a way that actually works for you instead of just social media lurking or half-heartedly doing something you're supposed to do.
Podcasting for me is my way of engaging with the writing community.
Beneath the Rain Shadow is a great way to do that, as well as create a book. Then part of our marketing plan was always to have the creation of the book connected with the book itself as a product and that going all the way back to the podcast.
So they're in this nice loop of if you're out selling your books on the street, which we do a lot of that.
A big part of where we sell is street fairs and markets and stuff, which is why we chose to do such a localized horror theme.
That's why we wanted it to be from Washington state and from where we both live, because people love that. When you're selling at these big events, conventions, and street fairs, and we do night markets and all kinds of things like that, this book is perfect for that because people love to read about where they're from.
They love to read that localized horror. So that's a really big part of our marketing plan as well, that boots on the ground selling mentality.
Then obviously we went wide too. We used Ingram Spark to distribute. If you're an indie publisher, you've got to learn about Ingram Spark.
If you want to get your book into libraries and you want to get your book into smaller bookstores and you're not going to go through a distribution network that's more established and do it yourself, Ingram Spark will be a required publishing asset for you in a lot of places. Especially for libraries and bookstores because they facilitate returns and stuff like that.
So that's something to know as well, but we just went wide on the internet and we are very focused on in-person sales with this book because it is so localized.
Jo: You knew you were going to do a book from the podcast—
Did you set up a pre-order from the beginning of the podcast?
Clay: We set up our pre-order about halfway through, I think. But as we were doing the podcast, we were still getting it all off the ground at the same time. Hopefully we'll be a little ahead of the curve on the next book, which is going to be very exciting as well, and the next season of the podcast.
Jo: I love the local idea again. You really baked some good marketing into the actual book itself, saying that people like to buy local stories. Of course, it doesn't have to be horror. People listening, if they write romance or whatever they write. Nonfiction as well.
Mark Leslie Lefebvre, who's been on the show, he's written sort of local various books about places. So I think this is really interesting.
Any tips for selling in person at fairs and things?
How has that gone? What about writers like me who are still worried about this?
Clay: Definitely could give you some tips. I do a lot of that. We haven't sold a ton of Rain Shadows online, but we have sold almost 200 copies by hand already.
It's a lot of fun because you get to engage directly with your readership, and I think that goes a long way towards word of mouth, especially in this day and age of oversaturation out there.
There's so many writers, there's so many stories, there's so many books, so many algorithms to compete with.
Word of mouth is still our most powerful ally as indie publishers. People going out there and reviewing our work and sharing it with their friends.
If they meet you in person, I think they're more likely to do all of those things as well as to read the actual book. I think a lot of people are trophy collectors too, right? Just a good looking book for the shelf and you never read it. We all have giant TBR piles.
So that face-to-face interaction I think in this day and age is exceptionally powerful and important for indie authors. So that's a good reason to do it all by itself.
And for tips and tricks, you have to learn the energy of selling books in person is definitely different than doing it online or through social media.
Doing a podcast is helpful for that, learning how to talk and raise your energy level, an appropriate on-air personality. You do have to adjust all that, right?
We're always putting on a little bit of a performance even when we're just having a chat essentially. So engaging with your audience, being genuinely interested in people, and letting them engage with the work. Then there's a few tricks we have in this collection specifically.
So something that's nice about it is at the start of every story, you get to see the prompt that created the story originally. So the Northwest location, the quirk, and the horror trope are there. Then we also have a map of Washington with a little star on it so you can point right to where every story happens.
This is nice for a couple of salesy reasons. It is a good way to get the book in people's hands, which is a classic sales trick, right? If you're selling at a street fair, you can get people holding the book. They're a lot more likely to buy the book.
Jo: Nice tip. So as in—
You are opening it and showing them the map, and then they're holding it.
Clay: Mm-hmm. It goes a long way. People already have it in their hand, they're already thinking about it. Then you open it and you're like, “Oh, where are you from?” And they go, “Oh, I'm from Granite Falls.” And you're, “Oh, okay, well we have a story that takes place, boom, right here, right where you live.”
Then the other thing we have is a bookmark that lists all the horror tropes we did. So I will also be telling them about the one story with the one map picture that I'm showing them, and then I'll hand them the bookmark and be like, “And if you like any of these other horror tropes, we also did these 12 tropes, so you might be into this book for all these reasons.”
Then they're holding two things. So those are some of the simple tips and tricks. I would say just have a good energy, engage with people, be interested in them, ask them a question or two, and find out what they like to read.
Then in the case of this book, we went wide on topics. We went wide all over the horror genre. So we wrote stories from aliens to zombies to technology, creepy technology, all kinds of things. Mushrooms. So there's a wide swath of horror stuff that we included in this collection.
We did that knowing that we want to capture as big of a horror audience as we can, because there's a lot of people that are into a certain sub-genre, but then there's other aspects of horror they don't like, and largely those are based on misconceptions in a lot of cases anyway.
So hopefully this collection that's dedicated almost wholly to subverting tropes and taking unique approaches at old tired ideas can help with that and get some people reading horror.
Jo: I think that's really cool. I actually haven't really talked about this on the show, but I do have an idea for a book set in my county of Somerset here in the southwest of England.
As you're talking about this and the map and all of that, I'm thinking, yes, I mean, I can see how baking in that marketing early on is just such a good idea that I think that will help a lot of people listening actually. Let's just come back to some of the other considerations around podcasting.
So when you set up the podcast with Tamara, is this a business thing?
Are you paying for hosting? Are you driving traffic to an email list, your Patreon? Is that under your new imprint? Is everything co-owned now around this idea?
Clay: When it comes to this project, Tamara and I just split everything 50/50. We pay for a few hosting things and your standard things you have to have, like we have a domain name and we have a pretty basic website.
We have Patreon that we're still building out and we paid for all the publishing costs 50/50. We split royalties 50/50. So it's just all right down the middle for us.
Now for the next season, we're bringing on two more authors. So for that we have a different strategy that we've talked through and thought about quite a bit. We've decided we're going to pay them a good rate for short stories rather than do a royalty split.
Trying to split it… because I don't know if you've ever had to track someone down—it's a nightmare. It's the worst.
So that's another part of the strategy too that you might be interested in. When we do in-person sales, Tamara and I, so we split royalties just 50/50, but then when we order author copies to sell in person, we also just split the cost of that down the middle.
Then we split the books down the middle and then when we go out and sell in person, we don't really worry about royalties. If you sold the book, you keep the money for that book, unless we're both at the event. So we're collaborating on it on a lot of levels.
Luckily we have a lot of trust for each other, which is requisite for this, clearly, but it works for us. It wouldn't work in a lot of other situations.
So for the next one, that's why we're keeping it that we're going to pay both of you a good writing rate and then we are going to keep all the royalties because we don't want to have to chase our tails on that for the rest of eternity.
Jo: I think that's a really good idea, especially for short stories. I mean, having co-written with people for a decade now, some of those books, the monthly royalty is negligible. Even if you do it once every six months, it's like, oh my goodness, the time I have to spend doing reporting.
Although, to be fair, this is one place AI has just really started helping me because when you are wide, you get so many different reports from so many different vendors. I used to have to open everyone and go through and find the stuff, and now I just upload them all to ChatGPT Agent, and it does it for me. So this is a good part of AI for business admin.
But I think you are right there. I guess with your contracts with those people, there are also rights reversion within a certain amount of time because—
Short story contracts often have faster rights reversion than longer works.
Clay: Yes, and we're just basing that on a cents per word situation.
We're trying to pay as high as we can, as close to the pro rates as we can. We'll probably end up averaging out that cents per word rate that everybody's happy with and then paying it as a flat rate.
Because it's all prompt based, right? And it's all writing in a month's time. There's all these other variables that someone might want to write longer or shorter. So we want them to have the flexibility to do that, but without breaking our banks.
So we're probably going to agree on a contract that's like we're going to pay 5 cents a word, which is considered a pro rate, right? Or I think it's 8 cents a word now, but 5 cents a word is a decent enough payment for an editor to pay you if you're a writer.
We'll probably agree to that with a set word count for each story, and then just pay a flat rate for all four stories since we rotate. Every writer will have to write three stories for the next book.
Jo: I think it's all good to think about though, if people get enthusiastic about doing short story anthologies. As you say, if you have 15 stories and 15 different writers, I mean, these kinds of payments are an absolute nightmare. I think you're doing the right thing there.
So let's talk a little bit more about podcasting because you also have your own podcast, Fermented Fiction, which I went over to have a little listen to before we started talking, and I was like, “Oh my goodness. This is a really long show.”
There's multiple hosts and you talk about lots of pop culture stuff, books and movies and stuff like that. I'm very interested in this. How does podcasting help you on the fiction side? Because I can see that it's part of your business and everything like that, but in your fiction side—
Talk about Fermented Fiction and how you think it builds your author brand.
Clay: How much time do you got, Joanna?!
Jo: Well, you've got about five minutes left!
Clay: I love Fermented Fiction for so many reasons. It's become one of my favorite things I do.
As I said earlier, Johnny and Sean and David are huge inspirations to the beginning of my indie career and still huge inspirations to this day. They're also just such lovely people. They came on the show season one when we had like three listeners, because they're just willing to do that for people. So shout out to them, by the way.
So initially that was the goal, right? Was just to create an engine for engagement with the author community that felt meaningful and that felt productive instead of social media. Then it became something much more.
You're asking specifically about how it affects my fiction and how it helps with my writing, and Fermented Fiction has been fantastic for that because it helps me analyze fiction through a new lens, through a critical lens.
For those of you who don't know, the premise of Fermented Fiction is we invite on guests from the creative industries. So we will bring on filmmakers or writers or whoever else we can get.
We mostly bring on writers just because that's where we have connections, but we are open to bringing any creative people on. We've brought on some podcasters as well.
We choose a movie, book, or show and then we roll 2D20. So if you roll high, you have to defend the movie, book, or show. If you roll low, you have to attack it no matter what you actually think.
Then we do a 10 minute debate, and after the debate we do an hour, hour and a half long panel on the chosen movie, book or show and everything else that comes up along the way.
So this has been a fantastic exercise, Joanna, for analyzing work I love and work I don't love from a totally different lens because if you're watching or reading for Fermented Fiction, you have to be prepared to debate it either way.
So it's a good way to learn how to look for things you love in maybe movies that you didn't used to appreciate or that you didn't like on first watch or books. The same thing, right?
Maybe you read it and it wasn't your cup of tea, but if you're going in for the show, you've got to reread it and you've got to find something to love about it. Then same thing with things you love.
I had to debate against Pan's Labyrinth recently. Oh, it was so hard. It was so hard, Joanna. I had to watch that movie like three times in a row to be like, “How is this not a perfect movie?” And my conclusion was, it is. It is a perfect movie, but you can still find little things to nitpick. It's a fun exercise.
Almost more so with the things you love, right? Because then you can humanize those creators too by like, “Oh, this is still writing. It's still a story. It's still following a lot of the same rules I have to follow.”
That's a good way to look at the stories you love. It's not nitpicking for the sake of finding something that doesn't work. It's just nitpicking for finding the nuts and bolts that hold all stories together. They're in all the stories. Even the best ones. The best ones are just better at hiding it.
Jo: For sure. Any thoughts for fiction authors or anyone listening who thinks, “Oh, well, I kind of want to do a podcast because that would be awesome,” but it feels like it's oversubscribed now. Like we said with books, there's a lot of books. I mean, there's a lot of podcasts out there, right? It is hard to find an audience.
What are your thoughts on people who are new to podcasting, who might want to start a podcast?
Clay: I will just give the answer I've heard from a lot of people, but I would say do it. You know, it doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt to do it.
There's a low bar for entry when it comes to commitment in terms of money and stuff. These days you can get a pretty good mic for affordable costs. You can get a good webcam and that's all you need. Then you can get started.
I would say just think of why you want to do a podcast. What about it excites you? Because it's a lot of work and you're not going to make money on it, not for a very long time anyway.
You might eventually, but if that's your ticket to making money and then that's going to fund your writing career, neither of those is a great way to make money in the short and quick.
Jo: For sure.
Clay: So you're going to have to work really hard to pull off either of those career choices.
However, I do think podcasting is really good at fueling a creative career. It's really good at helping you promote yourself. It's a great way to put out good content out there without making your writing—if you don't want your writing to be the content that you feel you have lots of deadlines around or lots of obligations.
For example, I don't want to write a short story every month necessarily forever, right? I like doing it for Rain Shadows, but that's a self-contained project that has an end date. I don't feel like I have this looming obligation to my readership for all time to produce a story a week or something.
I would rather be able to take my time with my writing and release the stories I want to tell when they have become the stories I want to tell and not before. I like to have more control over that.
So for me, having a podcast is a great way for me to release something every single week that is directly connected to the work that is connected to the craft that is connected to the community in some way. That keeps you out there. It keeps your voice active, it keeps you thinking, it keeps you creative.
So I think podcasts can be great fuel for that. They can help you prop up your writing and vice versa. And they can be a great way to engage with the community in a meaningful way.
You will be shocked who will say yes if you ask them to come on a podcast. It's awesome. I mean, writers are very generous people a lot of the time. Most of the time. We've had all kinds of awesome guests on the show, and you can just ask. The worst thing people can say is no, and it's a great way to engage with the community.
Jo: Brilliant.
Where can people find you and your books and your podcasts online?
Clay: You can find everything about Rain Shadows at RainShadowStories.com. That is RainShadowStories.com. That will have the Beneath the Rain Shadow podcast and it will have all the info on that book.
I have a Substack: Clay Vermulm Fiction Horror. There you can join my newsletter and that will also get Fermented Fiction delivered right to your inbox, as well as a monthly letter from me with all the writing updates from Clay Vermulm Fiction and Beneath the Rain Shadows books.
Fermented Fiction is a weekly show, so we go live usually on Tuesdays and Wednesdays on YouTube, and we're just Fermented Fiction on there. We're easy to find.
Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Clay. That was great.
Clay: Thank you. It was a true joy to be on this show. I've been listening a long time and thank you so much for taking a punt on me here.
The Art And Business Of Literary Translation With Dani James
Aug 18, 2025
What happens when you fall in love with a book that deserves a wider audience but has never been translated into English? How do you navigate international copyright law, multiple publishers, and estate permissions when you have no translation experience? Dani James shares her journey from discovering a powerful Flemish memoir in her childhood home to becoming its first English translator, a labor of love that took years to complete.
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Jo: Dani James is a writer and literary translator who recently translated Return to the Place I Never Left, a Holocaust survivor memoir by Tobias Schiff. Welcome to the show, Dani.
Dani: Thank you for having me.
Jo: It's great to have you on the show. First up, just—
Tell us a bit more about you and your background and how and why you got into translation.
Dani: I'm a writer based in New York City, but I grew up in Antwerp, Belgium. Even though I'd been writing creative nonfiction and fiction for years, Return to the Place I Never Left was my first foray into translation.
It was really driven by an interest in translating this book that I personally adored and kept rereading over the years. Thankfully, I speak several languages and I grew up going to school and learning Flemish and Dutch, and being educated in that language.
I had no previous translation background, but just because I enjoyed this book so much and felt it was deserving of a wider audience, it inspired me to try my hand at it.
That's ultimately what drew me to translation. I found a lot of joy in it, and I've actually learned a lot about how translation, in my opinion, can really enhance a creative practice in ways that I wouldn't have expected before I took this on.
Jo: It's fascinating because your accent is American to my ear, but I've worked in Belgium and people might not know much about Antwerp. How did you get from Belgium to New York City?
Tell us a bit more about your traveling childhood and upbringing.
Dani: My parents actually met in New York City. That's also where I was born. They met in Washington Square Park in the eighties, I feel like that gives you a little bit of a lay of the land if you've ever been there.
My mother was visiting, my father's Jamaican and he had been living in the US since he was a teenager. My mother was visiting and they met and fell in love, ended up getting married and having me.
So I was actually born in New York City, but then when I was still a baby, we moved to Belgium. I did kindergarten all throughout high school in Belgium.
In the summertime though, I would come to New York City because the biggest part of my family is my dad's side of the family and they lived in New York. So I spent my summers—the whole summer and sometimes even the winter break—in New York City, and the rest of the time in Belgium.
I've been back in New York now for about 15 years. Now I do the opposite, I visit Belgium every summer. My mother still lives in Belgium and I have a lot of childhood friends there. That's how that came about, and why I definitely have the New York City accent.
Jo: Let's get into this book then. Return to the Place I Never Left has great personal meaning to you and your family. Tell us about that.
What are the connections there?
It seems so strange to hear your accent and then to think of the connections you have there.
Dani: There are so many connections actually. First, my grandparents were Holocaust survivors. When you think of the Jewish community in Belgium at the time where I grew up, they were all survivors or descendants of survivors. In the case of my grandparents, they survived the war by hiding.
My mom's side of the family is Jewish, so I am Jewish. The majority of both of my grandparents' families did not survive being deported to Auschwitz. The story of the Holocaust is one that is part of my family's history and therefore also my history.
I really grew up with this knowledge and knowing these stories. They're very common in my family because they've directly affected my relatives and my family members.
Growing up, when I used to go to synagogue—I'm not as religious, but I am of course culturally Jewish—for the high holidays, I did used to go to the synagogue to celebrate them.
Fun fact: typically there would be two Black people in the synagogue when I grew up in Belgium at the time, and it was me and another girl who actually is Tobias Schiff's granddaughter.
Me and this other girl, our mothers knew each other. Of course, it's a small community. We knew each other and I believe that this is how the book entered my home. I believe the daughter of Tobias Schiff, the mother of this childhood friend, ended up bringing a copy of the book when it first came out.
I don't really remember how I first was introduced to it, but I do know that like all people who grow up with big bookshelves at home, and when you're a reader, I would just pick up books from the bookshelf and at some point I came across Return to the Place I Never Left. The original title is Terug naar de plaats die ik nooit heb verlaten.
When I read this book the first time, it really stood out to me because I had known about the Holocaust, had heard all of these stories. Every family of survivors has these crazy stories that you know of and that you learn growing up, and I'd read several books.
What stood out about Tobias Schiff's book was the style in which it was written. It's written in verse and it looks like poetry on the page.
It's very direct language because it comes from an oral project initially where he was interviewed for a documentary, and it makes reading it very accessible because the language is very direct. He's speaking to you as a friend, or sometimes it sounds as if he's speaking to himself as well.
It allows you to be a witness to his innermost thoughts, or it allows you to hear him speak to you as if he was a friend. The style of the book really drew me in and I ended up rereading it several times over the years.
I have really bad movie and book memory where I will forget entire plots. That works really well for me because it allows me to reread my favorites over and over again. Some of my favorite books and movies, I'll reread them or rewatch them four or five times.
That's one of the things I did with Return to the Place I Never Left. I've reread it several times over the years. At some point I thought I feel like more people would appreciate this story.
It gives people good insight into the experience of someone during the Holocaust and what that was like and surviving these death camps, and afterwards grappling and navigating with these really traumatic experiences and how that impacted him in his life. Outside of those really intriguing parts of the book, it's also set in Antwerp partially.
If you've traveled around the world, very few people know Belgium. A lot of people know the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, all the countries around it, but not a lot of people know about Belgium, and definitely not about Antwerp.
I also like the fact that in a way it shows some details about the city of Antwerp in a very unfortunate setting, but Antwerp is where I also grew up in Belgium.
For all these reasons, Return to the Place I Never Left is an incredibly powerful book in itself, but it also tells such an important story of important places and important experiences that are meaningful to me and many people around the world.
I think even if you don't have a personal connection to this, you could gain a lot and learn a lot just from reading this book.
Jo: The original was in Flemish, is that right?
Dani: Yes. There's actually quite a journey even to getting to this book. Originally Tobias Schiff was interviewed for a documentary, and the documentary was titled Récits d'Ellis Island. It was in French.
It was a documentary about Holocaust survivors and their experience, and I believe it was filmed in the late eighties and perhaps came out in 1989. It was filmed by a French filmmaker named Claude Lelouch. He interviewed Schiff for hours and learned about his experience.
Afterwards, the slot that the TV station had allocated—it was going to be aired on TV—was only 26 minutes long. The filmmaker thought, “How can I distill this story into 26 minutes? It's not doing justice to the entire story. I can't tell this story in such a short amount of time,” but it was a limitation set by the TV channel.
He had to edit it down, so what he ended up doing was releasing or publishing at the time the transcripts of his interviews with Tobias Schiff. Those initial transcripts were in French and I believe it was a little booklet.
Some editors came across it and thought, “Wow, this is really powerful,” and then contacted Schiff to collaborate and use these transcripts as a starting point to create what would then become Return to the Place I Never Left, the book.
He ended up writing more and it ended up being, instead of French, translated into Flemish or Dutch, which Schiff also spoke. That was the official first publication, which was published in the nineties in Belgium, the Flemish version of Return to the Place I Never Left. That version was then translated into French around 2012.
Jo: Yes, that's crazy. He died in 1999, right? So this is now his estate who are making these decisions.
Dani: Yes, exactly.
Jo: So now it's in French, the book is in French.
Dani: Yes. In 2012, the book was translated into French, and then in 2017 it was republished in Belgium and the Netherlands in Flemish. In 2025 my version came out, which is the very first English translation of the book.
Jo: Which is great. We have to go further into this because some people listening might be thinking, “Oh great, if I find a book I love in a different language, I can just translate it.” But that's not true.
How did you get the rights to do this, and what was that process, given that you don't have a translation background?
Dani: It was a complex process and I had no former knowledge of the process when I started. I just knew I wanted to translate the book. Before I even got started, I asked the family for permission.
I know one of Schiff's daughters, and so I was able to ask her because, as you mentioned, since Schiff passed away, the family is the estate. That was my initial request. I just said, “I really love your father's book. I would love to bring it to a wider audience. Would you be okay with me translating it?”
They said yes. They were actually excited about this prospect and I had a verbal confirmation. That was my first step.
I had had this idea for several years, but then in 2019 I did an MFA in creative writing, a Master's in Fine Arts. I had asked the director of the program if they had a translation course and they didn't, but they did encourage me to pursue this project. They said me translating it could be one of my final projects in addition to my thesis.
What was great is that even though there was no particular guidance on translation or what to do there, I was able to translate it and have someone give feedback on at least the parts that I produced with no context of the original.
That was just a good experience there, and I was motivated to work on it also alongside generating new material for a thesis.
Rights-wise, once I had completed the manuscript and I was ready to shop it around, I realized that when I looked into it a little bit more, I needed proof that I had the rights.
Jo: Yes, exactly. It's kind of crazy to me listening to you.
You went ahead with translating the whole thing without having any kind of contract?
Dani: Yes, and I recognize that this is very different also because the original author had already passed away. There are several ways.
When books are published today and when the author is still alive, sometimes the publishers contract it out and they look for translators, and the publication deal then looks very differently because as a translator, you're contracted just to translate. The publishing deal is with the author, of course.
In this case it was very different. I have this manuscript, I start shopping it around, a publisher's interested. I have this note, this little PDF note from the family stating I have their permission.
Once the publisher was interested in publication and sent me a publication contract, then I had to ensure that I really had everything in order with the rights in Belgium and with the family.
Initially what I did is I have a friend, a good friend who's a lawyer, and I asked him to review and he said, “Okay, I can look at this, but you need to get yourself a real lawyer.”
So I got a lawyer and that was the best decision I had made because this lawyer had experience and really helped me navigate not just the publication deal with the publisher here because in the US I am the copyright holder of the English translation of Tobias Schiff's book.
Jo: I was going to say to people listening, this translation is a subsidiary right of the original book. Actually it is the publisher as well, I presume, of whichever you translated from—the French or the Flemish—that is also the point, right?
It's not even just that you are asking permission, you are using another publisher's book as the basis for your own translation.
Dani: Yes, exactly. As I was navigating this—signing my publication deal and negotiating it here in the US—I was also navigating the rights in Belgium. Some of the steps we had to go through were that I had to formalize the permission.
First of all, we had to find out who owned the rights. Was it still the Belgian publisher or had it gone back to the estate? That's what we had to figure out. Actually, the rights had reverted back to the estate.
Jo: Oh, okay. That's good.
Dani: Yes, so then we knew who we had to collaborate with, who had the rights and who could transfer the rights to me or grant me permission. Then we had to create a document for the estate to sign. But in creating this document, we also had to navigate Belgian copyright law.
At some point I also had to find a Belgian lawyer to not just review, but to make sure that what we are writing in this document aligns with both US and Belgian copyright laws.
Jo: Oh my goodness.
Dani: Yes. We also, for best practice, had to translate the paperwork on the Belgian side as well. All the documentation with the family were in two languages, they were both in English and in Dutch or Flemish. All of that had to be squared away before I could sign the publication deal here.
Jo: You're paying for all of this, you're paying for all those legal things.
Did you get an advance from the English language publisher or is this all a labor of love?
Dani: This is really a labor of love. I did not get an advance because I already had the finished manuscript. I was like, “Here it is.” So no advance.
Thankfully in Belgium there was an organization for Belgian authors and we were able to get support from a Belgian lawyer specializing in literature who was able to help us pro bono. So that was a beautiful find.
I had to dig deep, just because I was reaching out to several lawyers and trying to find out who could help and then find out about some organizations. It took a lot of navigating.
I have to say, I'm very grateful for my lawyer because my lawyer had more experience, not in translation specifically, but just in the literary or creative industry, and so he's able to see ten steps ahead.
While I'm looking at a document and thinking about how does this make sense for right now, he's thinking, “But what if three years down the line this happens and that happens?”
Jo: Yes, like if there's a potential movie, for example, from the English language.
That's what you have to plan for—utter failure where nothing happens and then utter success where everything happens.
It's like, “Okay, movie deal, massive amount of money comes into whose account and how does that get to the estate and where's the split?” It's great that you had that experience with your lawyer because these kinds of rights are really difficult to manage.
Dani: Yes. With the right people in place, specifically the lawyer, that was amazing. You mentioned no advance, you have to invest your money in it, but money well spent when it's someone who's really out to also protect you and has this experience and this insight for just those situations that you mentioned.
What about if there are movie rights involved? What if someone wants to adapt this into a play? Who owns the rights even?
Jo: Yes, or even somebody then decides to translate your English version into a different version. These things go back to multiple layers, which is why copyright law is so complicated. Just taking a view now—
Would you have done this project if you had realized all of this stuff you would have to do later?
I would say to people listening, it is important to get that stuff done before you start a project, because if you hadn't known them, they could have just said, “Well, no, you can't have the rights,” or they could have had an offer for an English translation as well, and your work would have been wasted. I guess it's just all worked out well.
Dani: I probably would have done it the same had I known. It ultimately, in my experience, was a great learning experience and like you mentioned, the book is here, it's published in the US, it's doing well. So it was very much worth it. I learned so much from it.
I've also learned that the way that the process works is not always this way, and it really depends on the whole situation. How long has the book been out? Who owns the rights? Is there interest? Is there a publisher?
Typically I would say though, in smaller cases, in the case of this book, this is written in Flemish or Dutch, it's a language that's not really spoken in many places in the world. Between the estate and the publishers, people would usually be excited to have this become available for a larger audience.
Typically there's also when you negotiate these rights and when you publish something, there's also a percentage of potentially profit sharing or royalty sharing, so it also benefits ultimately the rights holder if they're interested in that as well, of course.
Jo: Yes, absolutely. Potentially earning from that.
Dani: And also having the book receive a wider readership, so that's where the benefit lies.
Jo: Yes, absolutely. It's very different to you doing this pretty obscure book compared to somebody saying, “Oh, this is a bestselling novel in English, let's turn it into Flemish,” because that's sometimes a lot more complicated.
Let's just finish the publication story. You find a publisher who's interested. Was this just then an easy process all the way to publication, or—
How was the publication process for you?
Dani: I will say… it was a learning process.
Jo: This is your first publication, right?
Dani: Yes, my first publication that's through a publisher that's not in an anthology or literary magazine. The publisher was great. It's a small publisher, Wayne State University Press. Great team, small team, but they were great in keeping me in the loop.
I had to complete a sales and marketing questionnaire to talk about ideas about how we would market the book. I had to do a design questionnaire and was able to share my ideas for the cover art, which I really enjoyed because it was fun.
I would go into bookstores and look around and look at covers and think about ideas. The final cover for Return to the Place I Never Left merges some elements of the original cover, which I really love. It has red and the barbed wire, and we kept that the same.
Then there's also a lot of white space, which I was intentional about because there's also a lot of white space on every page. I felt like it really reflects this modernized version of the book.
We went through these design and marketing decisions and then through copy edits and proof edits. It actually went pretty smoothly because it was already a completed manuscript when I presented it to them. Those parts went well.
It was fun to think of new things to generate when it came to sales and marketing and the cover, but when it came to the book itself and the copy edits and the proof edits, that went pretty fast.
Jo: Well, it's not like they're going to say, “We need you to improve the story in this way,” because as a translation, you're not making a change to the story. I also presume they couldn't read the original, so they couldn't really say to you, “Well, that's the wrong word.”
Dani: That's right.
Jo: Just on that sales and marketing, because most authors have a massive problem with this—
Is it basically down to you to do all the marketing?
Dani: A lot of it is, not all, but a lot of it is. The publisher will take some things on. They'll submit the book for reviews to several places. They'll sometimes share some ads that they've launched for the book in specific places.
I just recently came across a new prize for Jewish literature in translation, actually, given by an organization in the UK. I was able to contact my publisher and send it to them and ask them, “Hey, is this something that you could submit this book for?”
They will take that part on so I don't have to go and submit myself and send copies of the book myself. If I see an opportunity, I send it to them and see and ask them, “Was this on your radar already or not? Is this something you'll take care of or will I take care of it?”
They will do that, but I would say the majority falls on the author, or translator in this case, to really push it out into the world.
Jo: You made a lovely video. In fact, you pitched me for this and I went to watch your video and I think it's lovely. You've got a lovely voice, but you've got a lovely manner about you which comes across really well on video.
Is video something you do normally or is this something you've done specifically for the book?
Dani: This is something I've done specifically for the book. I kind of shy away from video specifically.
Jo: Oh, me too. I think you did a good job of talking about yourself, but also about the book and reading. I know it's hard, but I do think it's an effective way of breaking through when books are hard to market.
Dani: Thank you. I think one of the things that made that video work as well is that the director of that video is also a friend of mine and a creative collaborator. He was really good at teasing out some responses from me, I would say.
I generally get excited when I speak about the book and the translation process. There's so much to say about it. I really appreciate it.
As writers, we typically are very excited about the writing and the creation part, so I could talk about it for a very long time.
My friend, his name is Kofi, he's also a writer himself and a filmmaker. He was also very good at just asking specific questions and he also knows me and knows some parts of the stories.
He can look at it from an outsider perspective and then know, “Okay, this could be interesting to other people,” because there's some parts of the story that for me are just so normal that I don't really think somebody else would be interested in hearing this.
But he'd be the one to say, “Actually, let's talk about this a little bit more. I think people would be interested in that.” Sometimes I would think, “Really?”
Then later when people see the video, sometimes people come back and share some things that stood out to them in the video, and they're the things that I wouldn't have even put in that video myself because I would think this is normal, no one's going to care.
It's really helpful to have that outsider perspective, and when you have a good editor or director, they can really direct and pull out things from you and put them together in a way that would be interesting to the audience. I'm very grateful that's how that came together with two friends working on a project there.
Jo: I think from everything you've said, a lot of this has been based on relationships and tapping into your network, and I think that's really good and what you have to do, especially with a labor of love. I don't imagine this is going to make you like millions of dollars. I mean, it's just not the reality, is it?
Dani: We shall see. You never know.
Jo: The amount of work you've put in and the amount of work you're going to have to keep putting in to keep this book alive, I think is amazing. That's partly why I want to talk to you, because I feel like a lot of translation work is contracted by a publisher. It's not necessarily done in the way that you've done it.
Let's just briefly touch on the creative side of the translation. You said that you learned a lot, obviously, but that it enhanced a creative practice.
Just tell us a few things about the actual translation process and the literary challenges of that.
Dani: Happy to talk about this. Again, this was my very first time undertaking literary translation. So the first version was me translating it longhand. I wrote it in a notebook. I had the original book, and then I had my little notebook.
I translated it almost word for word. I wanted to stay as close to the original in this first version. Later I took my notes from my notebook and put them on my laptop and already started making some tweaks here and there.
You see a word and think, “Hmm, actually,” or sometimes I would notice, “Oh, I actually translated this with Flemish grammar, this doesn't quite read well in English.” So I start making those types of edits.
Over time, I would re-edit, reread the whole body of work and edit it. Over time, as I became more familiar with the text and started seeing certain things like, “Hmm, actually I feel like the way that this sentence is written, it kind of glosses over what's actually a really important moment.” So I made some choices there.
For example, the original, if you see the book, it has very little punctuation and only names and place names and people's names are capitalized. It reads almost like this stream of consciousness and it looks like poetry on the page. The original is the same way. That's where I got that style from.
I ended up pulling that style through a little bit more because there were some scenes in the original where I felt that you almost gloss over something that's really important.
I made deliberate choices to add some line breaks sometimes, or create more vignettes so that some parts were standalone. For example, when they get deported, or when scammers ring the doorbell pretending that they can get the daughter who's deported back to the family.
There were some moments that I felt could stand out a little bit more, and so those types of choices came in further editing rounds because I really wanted to honor this original text of this man who has passed away.
At the same time, I also wanted to really bring forth the meaning of the text as much as I could and make sure that it resonated with English readers as much as it did with me in reading it in Flemish.
Over time and later editing rounds, I saw that I became a little bit more comfortable in making those stylistic decisions to emphasize some things by changing words or adding a word or two, or removing a word or rejiggering a line.
That was challenging since I had no one to guide me through this, and so I had to think to myself —
What is the ultimate goal? Is it to stay as close as possible to the original text, or is it to make the translation as strong as possible?
What was helpful to me was to think about the fact that no two translations are the same. You have several classic novels that have been translated several times and some translations win awards.
What makes one translation better than the other? When I thought to myself about this, I realized, “Okay, it's okay to put some of myself into this piece.”
There are these two quotes by translators that I absolutely love. The first one is by Mark Polizzotti, who says, “When you read a translation, it doesn't mean it's a secondary experience. It doesn't mean that you're not reading the author. It means that you are reading the product of two authors: the original author and the translator who has to read the text, interpret it, and regenerate it in terms that make linguistic sense.“
There's another translator named Catherine Øhrgaard Jensen, who actually is now, I believe, the director of ALTA, which is an international organization for literary translators.
She calls a translated book “a sibling of the original, but not a twin.”
I love both of these quotes because they really show how the translation is, in a way, a collaboration. It is in a way being a conversation with the text of the original author and in some cases with the original author when the author is still alive.
Over time in later editing rounds, I was more comfortable in making these decisions and infusing a little bit more of myself and how I would approach this, how I would change this up a little bit to amplify this a little bit and make sure it reads well.
I made sure it presents well with the goal to honor the original text and make the English version as strong as the Flemish version. Once I was in that mode, I think the challenges, I wouldn't say fell away, but they became a lot more fun. Also because you're able to still be creative and really think of what is the perfect word here.
What words specifically would personify or would really highlight what this line means? Sometimes there's not a one-to-one translation either. Then you get to play around and really figure out, “Okay, which word do I use? Do I need two words to replace one?”
There's a lot. You have to really flex your creative muscles in ways that I hadn't really expected and in ways that I find have made me a better writer, even when I come back to my own projects.
You're so concerned with every single word. It's similar to poetry and to all good writing, really. We think about every word and what it evokes to the reader and how it looks on the page.
With translation, that is very true as well, in a way that I hadn't really expected when I started translating it. I didn't think that I would find so much joy and that I'd be able to be this creative when it came to word choice and sentence crafting.
Jo: It just sounds like a lovely process. I'm a kind of classic British person who doesn't speak any other languages, and I think it's really interesting.
I did want to just ask you about your thoughts on AI-assisted translation, because this is obviously becoming a big part of the industry now, in traditional publishing as well as in the self-publishing space. Obviously the type of book you are talking about is, like you said, more poetry. It's not a standard, just a novel, narrative novel.
What are your thoughts on AI assistance in translation?
Dani: I did not use it for Return to the Place I Never Left at all. I don't know that I would use it. I understand why people would use it, especially for a first draft potentially.
The reason that I would stay away from it personally is because I think even in that first draft, when you're taking words from one language into another, you become more familiar with the original text. So you're really rereading it from one language and putting it into English or the language that you're translating it in.
You already start forming ideas sometimes about certain words or certain things you might want to do or change when you're translating it. I think if I were to use an AI tool to take on even that earlier draft, it would already make assumptions for certain words.
As we mentioned, certain specific word choices can have such a big impact. Not every language has a one-to-one translation for every single word in a different language.
I think that process of becoming really intimately familiar with the original language and your first draft into the language you're translating in, I think that's actually quite important to do.
I would be nervous that AI would translate certain words, and then I would now look at the AI translation and base my translation off what AI already selected.
For some words, when you then look at the original, you might think, “Hmm, actually what the author meant is a little bit different from how AI translated it, but now I've given it the same meaning of the AI translation.” That's why I would personally be hesitant specifically when it comes to literary translation.
Now, for legal documents or marketing terms or anything, that's different. I'd probably leverage it, or I'd be open to leveraging it.
With literature and writing, we're so concerned with words and strong writing is so important at this time, I would not yet use it in my own translations. Who knows? That might change in the future.
Jo: Who knows. But I love that your process was so detailed, and as we said, you've put a lot of love into this project. Before we go, I am interested, are you done with translation? Like you mentioned you've got your MFA, you've got lots of other writing.
Are you now working on your own original work in English, or are you still open to other translation work?
Dani: Yes, I am still open to other translation work. Actually, someone already gave me a little booklet to consider. It is a short book also about a Holocaust survivor, and I do plan to do something with that one day, just not right now.
Right now I am working on a fictional novel and one thing I have learned is when you are publishing something, you're steeped in the subject matter for at least a year, I'd say around two from writing it or generating it.
Then if you have a publication deal, or if you're self-publishing, the proof edits, the copy edits, you're so knee deep in the subject matter.
When it comes to the topic, like the Holocaust, it was very challenging at some point. I actually took a break for about three years after I had finalized the manuscript before I ended up picking it back up and shopping it around because it was a pandemic, it was lockdown.
There was a lot going on, and it's a very, very heavy subject matter, especially when this is something that my family members went through. What I've learned now is you have to be so entrenched in the subject matter for so long.
I actually have two manuscripts that are far closer to completion, but they also deal with quite heavy subjects. I have decided to pursue a different project that is a little bit of a lighter subject matter. It has some humor in it, a little bit of romance, little bit of juiciness.
That is going to be my next project that I hope to complete and be able to find a home for by next year. After that one then I'll tackle one of those other more serious or a little bit darker subjects again.
Jo: I think that's good. It's good to have a break. I often do a nonfiction book in between thing. It kind of helps, but I guess you've done a nonfiction that was the heavy one. But no, that's great.
The book is Return to The Place I Never Left. Where can people find the book and find you and everything you do online?
Dani: Thank you. Return to the Place I Never Left can be found anywhere books are sold online, and also at DaniJames.co. That's my website. That's where you can order the book. That's where you can sign up for the newsletter. That's where I'll publish any upcoming events and readings. You can also find a link to my YouTube channel as well.
Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Dani. That was great.
Dani: Thank you so much. I just really want to take a moment to thank you because I absolutely love your channel. I found you through YouTube, by the way. That is where I mainly listen to your podcast.
I have to say, you have created such an incredible wealth of resources for writers. Every time I look at your videos, I have like ten videos that are in my queue that I want to listen to, and they're all so helpful.
Even though I know that you talk a lot about the journey of being self-published, it's so helpful—all the guests you have on, all the resources. I just wanted to thank you. I have shared your channel with several of my friends who are writing books as well and taking on other creative projects. Big, big thank you for doing this work.
Book Marketing Tips For Fiction And Non-Fiction Authors With Joanna Penn
Aug 11, 2025
What marketing principles remain true regardless of the tools you use? What are the different ways you can market your book, whatever your genre? In this episode, I share two chapters from my audiobook, Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition.
Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna
J.F. Penn is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, crime, horror, dark fantasy, short stories and travel memoir, as well as writing non-fiction for authors as Joanna Penn. She's also an award-winning podcaster and creative entrepreneur.
If you ask most authors about book marketing, they’re likely to grimace, shake their head, and sigh…
We became authors because we love to write, but if you want your books to sell — regardless of how you choose to publish — at some point you’ll need to embrace marketing as part of your author journey.
In this chapter, I’ll go through marketing principles that will be useful no matter how the industry changes. But first, let’s cover the question everyone always asks.
Do I have to do my own marketing? Can’t I just outsource it all?
There are many people and services you can hire for aspects of book marketing, but consider these questions:
What specific area of marketing do you want to outsource?
Is it worth doing at all?
Is it worth paying for?
What return on investment (ROI) are you expecting?
Is this service short-term or long-term and how might that affect your budget?
Book marketing is not one thing, so you need to first consider what exactly you want to outsource. For example, setting up and running Amazon Ads is a different skill to pitching magazines and podcasts for interviews.
You also have to consider whether you even want to start something you might not sustain.
Is it worth starting a TikTok channel if you hate making videos?
Is it worth starting your own podcast when it might be a year or so before your listenership grows to a decent size?
Is it worth paying a PR professional to get you interviews in magazines when you’re just starting out, you’re unsure of your brand, and there is no obvious return on investment?
Do you want to keep paying people for months and years? Or could you spend some of that money learning new skills and building your own sustainable marketing strategy?
If you want to hire a professional, be specific about the tasks and your budget, as well as timeframe. For example, ‘Run Meta Ads for three months to the first book in my fantasy series’ or ‘Pitch media outlets for three months around my non-fiction self-help book on dealing with anxiety.’
While I have hired specific people over the years for short-term marketing campaigns, I primarily do my own marketing. Here are some principles that will help you if you choose to do the same.
(1) Reframe marketing as creative sharing
Many authors feel that marketing and sales are negative in some way, but that attitude makes the whole thing more difficult. Whether you have a traditional book deal or you self-publish, you have to learn to market if you want to sell books. So, it’s time to reframe what marketing is!
Marketing is sharing what you love with people who will appreciate hearing about it.
Marketing is not shouting ‘buy my book’ every day on social media or accosting readers in bookstores or at author events. You should never be pushing anything to those who are not interested. Instead, try to attract people who will love what you do once they know about it.
We’re readers too and we all love to find new books to immerse ourselves in, so think about other readers in the same way.
If you’ve written a great story in a genre that you love, why would you ever be embarrassed about promoting it ethically to fans of that genre?
If you’ve written a book on gluten-free weight loss, it’s likely that you’ve achieved success with your method. You’re trying to help people, so why wouldn’t you want to spread the word?
Once you change your attitude, the whole marketing landscape shifts. It becomes far more positive when you’re sharing things you love and attracting like-minded people.
If you start enjoying marketing and make it a sustainable part of your creative life, you’ll find it works a whole lot better — and might even be fun!
(2) Focus on the reader
Writing is about you. Publishing is about the book. Marketing is about the reader.
When we write, we are in our own heads. We’re thinking about ourselves. But when we publish and market, we have to switch our heads around to the other side of the equation and consider the person who reads or listens to the book and what they want out of the experience.
Step outside your own head and ask these questions: Who is my ideal reader? What emotion or outcome do they crave? What problem am I solving, or what entertainment experience am I providing?
The answers will help you with the words and images you use in marketing to attract the right readers.
(3) Own your platform
When you write a book, you need to have somewhere to direct people so they can find out information about you and what you write.
There are many options for building your home on the internet, but an important consideration is who owns the site you build on.
If you use a free site, it’s owned by someone else, whereas if you pay for hosting, you control it. You can back it up and make sure it’s always available. This matters because things change over time.
Some authors let their publisher build a website for them, but what if you begin working with a different publisher?
Some authors just use a Facebook page, but what about when Facebook changes the rules (as they have done several times over the years)?
Some authors use a free website service, but if that company disappears or gets bought or decides your book isn’t appropriate, what happens to your site?
If you’re serious about writing and selling books for the long-term, then consider owning your website.
You can do all kinds of other things to market your book, but at least you’ll always have somewhere to send people.
Equally, it’s important to build your own email list of readers who like your books, because again, who knows what will happen in the future with the book retailers or the publishers you use?
If you have an email list of readers, you can always sell books whatever changes come along.
Branding is your promise to the reader. It’s the words, images, and emotions that surround your work and the way readers think of you.
Many authors consider using a pseudonym, or different names if they write books aimed at separate audiences. I write under J.F. Penn for my fiction and memoir and Joanna Penn for my non-fiction for authors. I have different types of books with almost completely different audiences, so I need separate brands.
Book cover design also expresses brand and differs by genre. You should have some idea of the books and authors that are similar to yours.
Examine their book covers and the color palette they use, as well as their author websites.
What words, images, and colors do they use?
What emotional resonance does their brand present?
How does it make you feel as a reader?
Now try to apply those principles to your own author brand.
If you’re struggling with brand, don’t worry. It will emerge and become clearer over time as you find your voice and attract an audience over multiple books.
When I started out, I published everything under Joanna Penn, and eventually split my author brand to make things clearer for readers, as well as myself. But it took five books and several years before I understood that was the right decision for me.
(5) Find marketing that fits your personality. Double down on being human.
If you want a sustainable career as an author, you need to consider what kinds of marketing you can consistently do over time. You can’t fake it or force yourself to do things you hate. Marketing needs to fit with your personality and your lifestyle, and that will differ for everyone.
You also need to be personal and, in an age of AI, double down on being human. The more you share authentically, the more people will get to know, like, and trust you, and the more likely they are to want to buy your books.
Of course, you have to draw your personal line in the sand. I don’t share pictures of my family on social media, and some authors use codenames for their children so they can talk about being a parent while still protecting privacy.
You also need to know what’s best for managing your energy. I’m an introvert, so I find in-person events and group things difficult, and I tend to avoid in-person marketing. I also don’t watch video online so I produce little of it, and I don’t do short-form video like TikTok or Instagram Reels.
I listen to a lot of podcasts and audiobooks, so audio marketing is my primary channel. I have two shows, The Creative Penn Podcast for writers, which markets my Joanna Penn books, and my Books and Travel Podcast, which is for my J.F. Penn side. The shows go out on audio podcast feeds and also onto my two YouTube channels.
I also like taking photos, so I use Instagram @jfpennauthor and also share on X @thecreativepenn. I share pictures of my travels and what I’m up to for research, and my cats, and over time, I’ve become a lot more open about what I like.
For example, I’m a taphophile. I enjoy walking around graveyards and I like ossuaries and crypts, as well as art history and cultural aspects of death and memento mori. It turns out there are many people with Gothic leanings like me, and people even send me photos of their favorite graveyards from all over the world now.
Sharing details about your interests might not be an obvious path to book sales, but attracting readers slowly over time in an authentic way can underpin a sustainable long-term career.
(7) Balance short-term and long-term marketing
New authors often focus on the launch of their latest book, but most indie authors and publishing companies make more money from the ‘back list,’ older books with more reviews and a sales history. A book is always new to someone who has just discovered it, and that ‘new’ book might not be your latest release.
Short-term marketing is a good option for new releases, for campaigns like a Kickstarter, or if you want to push a first-in-series book from your backlist to introduce people to your work. These kinds of campaigns usually include some form of paid marketing, which can drive a sales spike that drops once you stop pumping money and energy into it. For most authors, this is not sustainable.
Long-term marketing is more about building evergreen assets that drip sales every day. If you want a long-term career as an author, you need to think about building a sustainable baseline income, money that comes in from your books consistently every month without you having to keep paying for it.
Successful long-term marketing requires more books on the market, more streams of income, more readers on your email list, and consistent content marketing of some kind. It takes time to build but is worth the investment if you want a long-term career. The most successful authors combine these two approaches with sustainable marketing strategies.
(8) Measure the success of your marketing
If you’re not measuring the results of a promotion, how do you know if it worked?
Marketing should ultimately result in sales, and if you’re self-published, you can measure this easily, as you get daily sales figures from the self-publishing platforms. You can also check your rankings on the stores and take screenshots before and after the promotion to check results.
This is why I prefer online marketing to traditional media and PR. If you have a clickable link associated with your promotion, you can track results and understand what works and what doesn’t.
When I first started out, I had national TV, radio, and newspaper coverage, but it had no noticeable impact on my book sales. These days, I can pay for a BookBub ad or email my list with a link and see the resulting direct sales spike. Measure promotion results, rather than basing your opinion on assumptions or ego metrics (likes and comments rather than sales).
Track what matters to your author business: sales, income, profit, email subscriber growth, number of reviews, and use those to guide your next campaign.
(9) Build community and collaborate with other authors
Some people say being a writer is lonely, but that is a choice, because there are so many different communities you can join in person or online. You can also build one of your own.
People want to belong to something, they want to be part of a group, and together, we can achieve more and the journey will be a lot more fun!
I’m a member of the Alliance of Independent Authors, which has a thriving community online and also meets up in person at book industry events. I speak at and also attend lots of conferences, including Author Nation, the biggest indie author conference in the world. I’m also a member of several Facebook groups, for writing craft and author business, where I check in every few days to see what’s going on.
I also have my own Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn, where I share behind-the-scenes details about running an author business.
Not every group is for every person, of course, so you must find the places that feel right for you. But give things a try, be generous and helpful and a good community member, and you will find author friends.
Being part of a community can also lead to marketing ideas and opportunities — for example, collaborating on email newsletter swaps or book recommendations, joint promotions, multi-author bundles and box-sets, and cross promotion on podcasts and social media.
Remember, as with writing, marketing gets easier with practice. Start small, be consistent, and focus on the principles that never change, even as the tools and platforms evolve over time. Marketing your book is not a onetime event but an ongoing process, so take one step at a time and iterate as you go.
Experiment to find what works best for your personality and lifestyle — for each book and at each stage of your author journey. Once you choose a strategy, commit to it for the long term, and you’ll build an audience and book sales in a sustainable manner.
Different ways to market your book
I’m often asked, “What’s the one thing I should do to market my book?”
Annoyingly, the answer is: “It depends.”
It depends on you and your personality, your book, your budget, your goals and definition of success, as well as market conditions.
There is no silver bullet, no magic formula that works for every book and every author every time.
Here are some ideas you could use to get started. You can find books and courses on each of these, so if you’re drawn to a particular method, dive deeper, learn more, experiment, and see what works for you.
(1) Write more books
If you look at lists of the best-known, best-loved, and richest authors, they generally have a lot of books and have been publishing for many years.
We are writers. We write. So it makes sense that the best marketing starts by writing more books.
One book is not enough to establish an author career, if that’s what you want. Even if a single book breaks out and becomes the ‘must read’ of a particular year, it doesn’t mean that readers will buy the next book from that author. They may not even remember the author’s name. But if you have three or four books that offer the same type of experience and if a reader reads them all, you’re likely to have won a fan who will actively look for your next book.
Every time you launch something new, more people have a chance to find out about your work. Every time you write in a new genre or publish in a new format, different kinds of people discover you. Some of them will go on to buy or read or listen to more of your work, join your email list, or support you in other ways.
Or perhaps you found my first thriller, Stone of Fire, as a free promotion through BookBub and then read all the others in the ARKANE thriller series, before supporting my Kickstarter for book 13, Spear of Destiny.
I have a lot of books across many genres written over almost twenty years, so there are many different paths into my body of work, which grows over time as I continue to create. This is definitely my favorite way to market!
By producing new work, you will develop an audience over time, as well as finding your voice and increasing your creative self-confidence. You will become a better writer with every book, so the chances of readers loving your work will also increase.
You can also experiment with different forms. Try short stories, short non-fiction or novellas, as well as novels and full-length non-fiction or memoir. Once you have enough material, consider putting multiple books together in a boxset or bundle. There are so many possibilities!
(2) Write multiple books in a series and link them together
Existing customers will buy more books from an author if the new book promises the same experience delivered in previous books, whether they are fiction or non-fiction. This is why series are so powerful.
As a reader, there are some authors I pre-order from because I love a particular series, even though I might not read the other books they have. I’m loyal to the series characters, even more so than the author, because I want to know what happens next and I get an (almost) guaranteed experience.
For non-fiction, there are authors who I trust and whose books I buy because I know they will be interesting, informative, and inspiring.
If a reader discovers and loves your series when you release book five, they are likely to go back and buy the rest of them, which means more income for you and more satisfaction for the reader.
A novel in a series is also faster to write than a stand-alone title, as you don’t have to reinvent the characters and the world, you just need to find your plot and start writing.
If you write literary fiction or enjoy writing stand-alone books, consider the themes that tie your books together and think of ways to encourage people to move between them. You can create interconnected stand-alones — for example, books set in the same universe or linked by theme — so recommendation engines connect the dots.
Your options expand the more books you write. I have several fiction series, with the main being my ARKANE thrillers, but I also have stand-alone stories like Catacomb and Death Valley. For non-fiction, I have books for authors in a series, but I also have a memoir, Pilgrimage, which is a stand-alone.
While it’s easier to market books in a series, I certainly understand the creative urge to write all kinds of different things!
(3) Optimize your metadata
Metadata is the information about your book, rather than the book itself. It includes your title, subtitle, series title, sales description, keywords, categories, and your author bio. Some platforms also include data points like reviews and sales history so their recommendation engines understand where your book fits into the ecosystem.
We went through this in chapter 2.3, but metadata is a key aspect of marketing. If you find your marketing efforts aren’t getting the results you want, make sure you’ve made the right metadata choices for your book, and change things over time to keep it fresh.
(4) Use different price points, strategic discounting, and value bundles
The more books you publish, the more flexibility you have with pricing. You also won’t be so emotionally attached to any individual book, which makes it easier to play with pricing.
If you’re in Kindle Unlimited for your ebooks, you get five free days for promotion every ninety days. If you’re wide, you can set the price to free on all other stores, and Amazon will price match. My first ARKANE thriller, Stone of Fire, is free on all ebook stores, which brings people into the thirteen-book series.
You can also use limited-time discounts — for example, drop the price to 99 cents and promote the sale, introducing your books to new readers who might be hesitant to try a new author at full price.
You can also use fan pricing and launch pricing interspersed with full-priced books, rewarding your most loyal readers while still capitalizing on launch momentum and algorithms.
If you have books in a series, you can sell bundles at a great price, giving the reader value and putting more money in your pocket, especially if you sell direct.
(5) Build an email list by offering a reader magnet, then stay in touch
Make sure you have a link at the back of your book to a free reader magnet, something that the reader wants, if they give you their email address.
The call to action for both is in the back of every book, and also on my websites, podcasts, and social media, and people sign up for these lists every day.
Once people are on your email list, stay in touch. Let them know about new releases and giveaways, and draw them closer to you by sharing personal photos, book recommendations, or behind-the-scenes research. If you’re unsure what to email about, join a few successful author lists and see what they’re doing.
There are lots of email services. I use and recommend Kit (previously ConvertKit) at: www.TheCreativePenn.com/kit
(6) Build a ‘street’ team or ARC team
This group is a subset of your main email list, and is made up of readers who want advance reader copies (ARCs) and who are happy to promote, write reviews, and share on social media.
Some authors have incredibly active ARC teams with extra swag and giveaways as well as events. But you can keep it simple. I have an automated email inviting people to my Pennfriends list that goes out after six months on my fiction email list. They get early access to some new books and also free backlist books and many of them write reviews.
You can give away ebooks with watermarks through BookFunnel if you want to protect the files.
(7) Ask for reviews to build social proof
You don’t need an ARC team to get reviews. You can just ask readers by including a call to action at the back of your books — for example, “If you enjoyed the book, please leave a review on the store where you bought it. Thank you.”
Many authors obsess about getting reviewed in traditional media, but it’s more important to build up social proof on the online stores or on Goodreads (owned by Amazon). This evidence of reader approval will help you get promotions. For example, BookBub requires a certain number of reviews and a high average review rating before accepting a book for promotion.
Free books are the easiest to get reviews on, so if you’re struggling to get started, put your book on a free promotion and do some advertising to get downloads.
(8) Use social media
There are lots of different social media platforms, and each has its own rules and tactics, as well as its own demographic. You cannot be successful on all of them, so focus on one or two, learn the right skills for that platform, test out different content, and lean into what works.
The rise in beautiful print editions, particularly for fiction, has benefitted from the trend in social media video, with TikTok videos driving many books up the bestseller lists.
While social media marketing can be ‘free’ in terms of money, you will certainly pay with your time. All the platforms reward regular content and engagement, which works for some authors, but not for others.
There are authors who use social media effectively to drive massive sales and success online, but they put a lot of work in, or they hire people to help. Find successful authors in your niche to follow and model what they do if this is an area you want to focus on.
Personally, I’m not a huge fan of social media and use it more to prove I’m a human, sharing photos of my life and book research on Instagram @jfpennauthor. I also use X @thecreativepenn as a news platform where I learn about new technology and find content to share on my podcast. I also have Facebook pages, Pinterest boards, and a LinkedIn profile, but I’m not particularly active on any site.
(9) Use content marketing
Content marketing is my favorite form of marketing, and I’ve built my business around it. It’s essentially offering free content in your preferred format that educates, inspires, or entertains, and attracts people who might also be interested in buying your books, products, and services.
This content can also be a stream of income. For example, YouTube videos can be monetized with ads, podcasts can include sponsorships, and Substack newsletters can offer a paid tier alongside free information.
Providing quality content over time builds up your site and you personally as an authority and trusted source in a niche. The content remains on your site and you can build up a body of work that continues to attract people over the long term.
Content marketing often requires longer form pieces than social media. I create podcast interviews and episodes of thirty minutes to an hour weekly, instead of multiple thirty second videos on social media every day. No one has time for both things, so choose what suits you and your personality.
To help you decide, ask yourself this question: What do you currently consume?
I walk a lot and listen to podcasts, and I rarely scroll social media, so it makes sense for me to focus on audio-first content marketing. I also travel and take a lot of photos for book research, which I enjoy sharing on my blog and podcast at BooksAndTravel.page.
If you watch a lot of TikTok videos, or you love scrolling on Pinterest or reading articles on LinkedIn, then your own daily preferences should give you a hint as to what would suit you as a creator.
(10) Pitch for podcast or YouTube interviews
If you don’t want to build up your own content marketing site, you can pitch podcasters, YouTubers, or bloggers with your book, and appear on their platforms.
Do your research to find shows that will be a great fit for your work, then send an effective pitch to a few specifically targeted creators.
These interviews are never about selling your book. They are all about giving incredible value to the audience, which will make them want to find out more and naturally lead to book sales. Include five bullet points in your pitch about what exactly the audience will find useful, and make it easy for the host to understand why you’re a good fit.
This targeted approach will lead to much greater success than sending hundreds of pitches with a basic press release about your book.
(11) Pitch other media for interviews
Traditional media still has significant reach and authority, although it’s usually more for brand-building than direct sales.
Start by pitching local newspapers, TV, and radio, as they are often looking for local success stories and are easier to access than national media.
Research which journalists cover your topic or genre at each outlet, and look for those who have written similar stories.
As with podcast pitches above, you need a hook beyond ‘I wrote a book.’ Connect your pitch to current events, trends, or a unique personal journey. Make sure you have a professional headshot, book cover image, short and long bio, and sample interview questions ready to send.
(12) Try paid advertising: pay per click
A lot of marketing takes time rather than money, but you can get traffic — and sales — more quickly if you use paid ads.
The most popular and effective pay-per-click ads for authors are Amazon Advertising, Meta Ads for Facebook and Instagram, as well as BookBub Ads.
Choose which audience to market to, either with keywords or target audiences, set a budget, design the images, and let the ads run, paying per click or per impression. You’ll need a period of testing and time to monitor and adjust ads, and you may find you need to refresh the images or ad copy over time.
Most successful indie authors use paid advertising of some kind to drive traffic to their books, but it’s certainly not necessary. You need patience to learn the specific platform, test, monitor, analyze, and adjust ads. Or you can outsource your advertising, paying someone to run them as well as paying advertising platform costs.
This approach is most effective when you have multiple books in a series, as cost per click can be expensive if you only have one or two books.
I use Amazon Ads for some non-fiction books and rely on auto-ads using Amazon’s own algorithm to manage them. I also use Meta and BookBub Ads as part of short-term campaigns at launch or for promotional spikes.
(13) Try paid advertising: email newsletters
The most popular email marketing newsletter services are BookBub Featured Deals, and Freebooksy, Bargain Booksy, and other options run by Written Word Media.
With these services, you pay to submit your book for a genre promotion, and they email their targeted list of readers with a link to your book, along with many others. Hopefully, you get enough sales to justify the cost.
To be clear, you are buying a place on an email blast to readers. You are not buying a list of email addresses. Never do that as it violates anti-spam regulations.
(14) Try local, in-person marketing
While online marketing can be effective for reaching readers all over the world, in-person marketing can be rewarding for connections with readers and other authors, and can result in significant sales.
In-person marketing might include speaking at a local networking event or school assembly, literary festival, book club, or library, as well as having a book stall at conventions, conferences, local fairs, and markets.
Investigate options in your area and balance the costs of setting up a stall and ordering physical stock with the potential for income and local marketing reach.
(15) Collaborate with other authors on joint promotions or events
Even the most prolific authors can’t satisfy their readers alone, so it’s good to develop a network of authors in your genre, or those with a crossover audience. You can help promote each other’s books and do joint events and promotions together to keep readers reading in your niche. You’ll also make author friends, and this support is critical for long-term success.
There are lots of options for collaboration, from co-writing books, cross-promotion in email newsletters, to multi-author bundles, joint online launch parties, and social media sharing. If you’re new or want to expand your network, BookFunnel offers different kinds of group promos.
I collaborate with authors in lots of ways and often build relationships and attract opportunities through my podcast interviews. I’ve co-written fiction and non-fiction books, appeared on other shows, promoted authors to my email lists and on social media, and also collaborated on joint author in-person events.
I’ve also done bigger paid ad campaigns. In 2014, I was part of the Deadly Dozen, where twelve mystery and thriller authors hit the New York Times and USA Today bestseller lists with our multi-author ebook boxset. We all ran different promotions as well as jointly paying for advertising, and we sold over 100,000 ebook bundles and attracted many readers to our email lists.
If you want to collaborate with other authors, be generous and helpful and you will attract opportunities. Volunteering at author conferences can also be a great way to build your network.
Marketing is an ecosystem
It takes time to build out a sustainable marketing approach that keeps your books selling every month over many years.
You can pay for advertising right now and you will drive traffic to your books and hopefully sell some, but as soon as you stop paying, the sales will drop off.
The best approach is to think of marketing as an ecosystem made up of multiple aspects around you and your creative work.
What do you enjoy doing and what kinds of marketing can you sustain over time?
The most successful authors build marketing into their regular routine rather than treating it as a separate, painful task to check off as required for each book launch.
Marketing is about connecting people with your books. When you genuinely help people find stories they’ll love or solutions to their challenges, marketing becomes less about self-promotion and more about valuable service. It’s an important part of being a successful self-published author.
Researching And Writing Family History Or Genealogy With TL Whalan
Aug 04, 2025
Are you curious about the lives of your ancestors? What secrets might be hiding in your family tree, and where would you even begin to look for them? How do you turn dusty records and vague family stories into a compelling book for others to read? T.L. Whalan shares how she researched and wrote a book about her family history.
Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.
T.L. Whalan is the Australian author of short stories, young adult, and middle-grade fiction, as well as co-author of the family history project, The Wirrabara Whalans.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
What genealogy is and the motivations for researching your family history
Why you should always start your research by interviewing living relatives
Key resources for research, including official records, newspaper archives, and genealogy websites
The importance of getting family consent and how to handle sensitive information
The practical challenges of compiling vast amounts of research and formatting a book
Joanna: T.L. Whalan is the Australian author of short stories, young adult, and middle-grade fiction, as well as co-author of the family history project, The Wirrabara Whalans. Welcome to the show, Tegan.
Tegan: Thank you so much for having me.
Joanna: First up—
Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into writing, and also tell us about where you live.
Tegan: Sure thing. It's pretty obvious from my accent that I'm Australian. I live in a town called Hamley Bridge, which has only 700 people. It's a country town north of Adelaide in South Australia. My husband and I chose this country life because of our animals.
We have dogs ourselves, but we also run a dog rescue. Last year we started bottle-raising orphaned lambs, and now we run a dog and lamb rescue. Over the last 15 years, we've re-homed about 400 animals.
In terms of my writing, I was one of those people who always said, “I'm going to write a novel one day,” but never really got around to it. Then, in mid-2014, I decided to get serious.
I Googled how to write a novel and discovered NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month). I thought, “Well, that's good because I can wait until November.” So I did exactly that. I waited until November for NaNoWriMo, wrote a novel that year, and I've been writing compulsively ever since.
Joanna: Just on those bottle-fed orphan lambs. They turn into sheep, right? Do you just have loads of sheep?
Tegan: We've got 10 of our own sheep, which are wonderful pets. They're just like dogs; they run up to the fence and want pets and treats. The lambs that we're raising this year, we are finding good homes for, for them to live out their lives as lawnmowers and lovely pets themselves.
My husband's been very happy since we got the sheep. He hasn't had to mow the lawn, so it's been a good addition.
Joanna: Let's get into this family history project.
What is genealogy and why are people so fascinated with it?
Tegan: There are lots of people who are quite into genealogy or their family history, and it's basically the study of lineage. Often people choose to start with themselves and then work their way back, figuring out who their ancestors are.
I think people are fascinated because we're all a little bit self-centered and want to know more about ourselves. When I'm researching my family tree and find a particularly exciting ancestor, I actually do the math and work out how much of their DNA is in me.
It's nice to know that person makes up part of me. So there's that aspect of learning about yourself that I think is really motivating.
Another part of it is the thrill of the hunt; wanting to knuckle down and find information about these ancestors.
Sometimes when you find a really nice tidbit, you get to the point that you go, “I think I might be the only person alive who knows this about this person.” It's a pretty cool feeling to think that you're at that brink of your research.
I've also done family trees for people in my fiction writing. When I've written historical fiction based on true historical figures, I have been known to make a family tree for that person because I want to make sure that I get it right in terms of their siblings, their parents, their aunties, their uncles, the years of their birth, and how old they would be.
Joanna: You mentioned the research and the thrill of the hunt, but how do you research family history? What are some of the resources people might use?
Tegan: There are lots of resources, but I think sometimes people start in the wrong place. I'm a big advocate of starting with people who are alive now and interviewing them to get those stories. When that person passes, that story could potentially be gone as well.
While I agree it's exciting to get as far back on your family tree as possible, if we can start with living people and the resource that they provide, that's a really excellent starting point.
Once we have all the information we can from living people, we can start to look at other resources. As an Australian, a lot of our ship records are really important. For me, it's free settlers, but for plenty of people in Australia, there are convict records.
We have Births, Deaths and Marriages registries in Australia, which are a valuable resource, though there's a different one in every state, which makes it a little bit complicated.
In Australia, we have a newspaper website called Trove; I think the US equivalent is newspapers.com.
Newspapers have a phenomenal amount of information, like birth and death records, engagement notices, marriages, and sometimes even whole stories about a wedding, which will tell you who the wedding party was and what the bride wore.
We have also had to use Freedom of Information (FOI) to get information about some of our relatives. On my father's side, my great-grandfather was charged with being destitute as an 8-year-old boy and was then in what was fundamentally an orphanage.
We were able to seek freedom of information from the Department of Child Protection to get information about him. We're about to do something similar for one of my relatives who was institutionalized in a mental asylum. So those FOI records can be a valuable resource.
It's a little difficult to give really specific ideas on resources because they are often quite country-specific or even state-specific. For people who are interested, their state-based genealogical center is a good place to start for area-specific resources.
Joanna: Then there are bigger websites too, aren't there? Like Ancestry.com, these more global websites that you have to pay for?
Tegan: Exactly, and they can be a really good resource. They make it their business to collate a lot of records, so you can sometimes search many records quite quickly.
They are useful, but part of the problem with them is that many are user-based, so some of the information is what other users have submitted. Sometimes that's useful, but sometimes that information is inaccurate. There's also the possibility of those inaccuracies spreading through many people's records on those sites.
So Ancestry and other sites are a really good starting point, and we certainly used it a lot to generate hints, but like all resources, you also need to corroborate them and try to access that original source if possible.
Joanna: Being Australian, did you go further back than Australia? Did you end up looking at Britain or anywhere else?
Tegan: Yes, we certainly did. Our ancestors are mostly Irish, and that's who we pursue in this book. We got to the point that we hired a researcher in Ireland for some of our dead ends because if you are in a different country, you are more savvy about the genealogical systems in place.
Knowing locations and their proximity to one another can be really time-consuming. If I were doing that research from here, I would have to have a map app open all the time. Plus, as you mentioned, some sites require payment to access resources, which can be a hurdle in other countries.
We did get an Irish researcher who was fantastic; she managed to get us one generation further back, which was very valuable. There was another one we sent her that she wasn't able to get any further on, which made us feel very satisfied that we were able to get as far as we did.
Joanna: You mentioned freedom of information. If people don't know what that is, can you tell us more about it?
Tegan: With different records, there are different processes in place. With a lot of the ones we've found in Australia, you have to be a very close relation to campaign for those records.
In the case I mentioned with the Department of Child Protection, my father was a direct descendant of that man, which is why he was able to apply for those records. There are different thresholds these organizations require you to meet for them to release that information.
It's certainly worth investigating, and it will be very nuanced depending on the information you're looking for and the organization or government agency you're approaching. A lot of family history is just taking your time and doing things bit by bit.
It might be that an organization has now changed its rules, or enough time has passed. Things often get quite loose after about 100 years, and there's more willingness to release records. It's worth revisiting resources because things can change.
Joanna: You said it's good to start by interviewing family members who are alive. What are some of the questions that you asked?
Was it literally, “What was the name of your mother?” or did you go much wider?
Tegan: We went much more in-depth. When my parents and I started this project for the Whalans, we wanted it to be more than just a person's name, their date of birth, their children, and their date of death. We wanted to know who that person was.
So we compiled 13 questions, which we call the “cousin questions,” and they are available on my blog if anyone wants to see them. A lot of the questions were around location: where they went to school, where they were born, where they lived, where they traveled.
That information becomes really important when you're searching later because it helps to confirm that the person on a record is the one you're looking for. This is particularly relevant if you have a common surname like Smith. We had the benefit that Whalan is not a common name in Australia, which helped our research a lot.
The other questions were about the human story. We asked about people's idiosyncrasies and what they were proud of in their life. That gives you the flavor of a person.
One of my favorite stories we were told was about a man, from his son. He said that his father, when working on the farm, always wore his overalls, and in the front pocket, he always carried a $5 note in case the ice cream truck came by. I just think that's a beautiful way of explaining a person.
It gives you so much more character than his name and dates. You learn he's a farmer, he wears overalls, he must value ice cream, and you learn about the currency and that it was a cash-based society. We learned a lot from that little phrase, and that's the kind of rich color we wanted for our book.
Joanna: What about inaccuracies and corroboration?
How do you know a story like that is true? What do you check and what don't you check?
Tegan: The first part is considering how close the person we're interviewing is to that person. In this particular case, the person telling me the story was his son, and his wife was in the background and laughed, remembering the story with him. So that gives me confidence that it's true.
We can also try to find other evidence. For example, a couple of older ladies told us their father lived in Yundi because of some kind of government chicken farm. They couldn't give me more details, but that sent me on a research journey.
I was able to find out that Yundi was set up by the government to teach impoverished families how to farm chickens. So that vague comment was steeped in truth. All those resources I've already talked about can be helpful in finding and corroborating those threads.
Also, if you interview multiple people, you can often get several versions of the same story. When we produced this book, we sometimes used direct quotes. In that way, we're not necessarily describing it as an absolute truth; we're describing what someone has said about these people, which again gives an impression of a person.
Joanna: How far back did you get?
Tegan: For The Wirrabara Whalans, we go back to 1810. It was a happy surprise that we managed to get ourselves back to 1810, to be honest. That ancestor, born in 1810, immigrated to Australia in 1855.
Joanna: How did the family feel about you making a book that is publicly available?
A lot of people don't particularly want to talk about their family.
Tegan: Overwhelmingly, the response has been pretty positive, and the ones that haven't been positive have been neutral, so that has been a success.
When we were interviewing people, my father, who is quite well connected with the Whalans, could call them up, introduce himself, and get an interview. I had the more difficult job of cold-calling a branch of the family we haven't been actively involved with. I had about a 50/50 success rate.
For those people who weren't willing to help, we respected that choice. A lot of people think they don't have anything to contribute, but almost everyone we interviewed would start with, “Well, I don't know much,” and then they would know quite a lot.
One of the decisions we made early on was that we were only going to feature people who had passed away. This meant we didn't have as much conflict as if we were presenting living people, and there were also privacy concerns.
Another way we protected ourselves was that once we had completed a chapter about their loved one, we gave them that chapter to review. We asked them to look over it and let us know if there was anything they wanted changed. Every now and then, there was a sentence or two they wanted to remove.
Family is important to us, so if someone was uncomfortable, we deleted it. In a 450-page manuscript, a sentence or two isn't going to make a big difference.
Joanna: Was there anything that came up with your family history that was surprising?
Tegan: The most shocking parts involved a lot of bar fights. The one that always shocks me was a bar fight described in a newspaper where one of my relatives broke another man's leg. The force you'd have to use to do that is just horrific to me.
That made it into the book. It's all readily accessible details from newspapers, not new things that aren't already in the public domain.
The nicest surprise was when we managed to go back one extra generation. We found a funeral notice for a woman that turned out to be my three-times great-grandmother.
Later, we were able to corroborate that with DNA; my father's DNA matched with someone with her same surname, which as far as we are concerned, confirms it. That was a very satisfying part of our journey.
We also found with DNA that my dad's uncle had an illegitimate child. We were able to confirm the name of that child through DNA. We knew they existed and had an idea of their name, and the DNA match confirmed it. It was another way we had two resources saying the same thing.
Joanna: How did you handle permissions for photos and newspaper articles?
Tegan: There are a lot of images in the book. Many come from state libraries, which often allow you to use an image if you attribute the source and it's no longer in copyright. We purchased the occasional image from international library collections.
My parents drove all around South Australia taking photos of gravestones, so those are all our own images. There were also lots of family photos donated by family members who gave us consent to publish them.
The newspaper articles often appear in the book in full. They might be slightly fixed up if there are glaring errors, but for the most part, they're reproduced as they appeared and are fully credited.
It was really important for us to make a valid resource, so the book has a bibliography and references for most things throughout.
Joanna: How did you keep everything organized?
It sounds like a huge amount of work.
Tegan: It was a huge amount of work. I was working with my parents on this project, and we live geographically separated, so we had to use online ways to communicate and store information. We used Ancestry.com.au for a lot of our research collation because we could both access it from our different locations.
My parents did a lot of the research, and I did some research while also doing a lot of the formatting and writing. Almost from day one, I had a document that I was adding information to. It was basically one document that just kept growing and growing into the 450-page manuscript it is now.
Joanna: How do you get a family tree into a book? Does it have to go across multiple pages so the font isn't tiny?
Tegan: It was such a painful experience doing these family charts. From the early days, I knew I wanted a family chart for every family at the start of their chapter. I searched online for programs that could do it, but basically all of them fell down once I got to a family with 13 children.
As a result, the family charts in our book were all handmade in Word. That meant I could have a lot of control over the colors, the font, and the readability. It was a lot of work, and I actually had two family members help me with the formatting.
Those family tree charts were a nightmare, but they are very readable and look just how I wanted them to. So that's a small win, but there was a lot of pain to get there.
Joanna: Why did you decide to make the book commercially available? Are people who aren't in your family buying it?
Tegan: We did a lot of work on this project, and we want people to learn not just about our family, but about all the aspects that fed into our family. We sometimes liken this book to being a history of the mid-north of South Australia.
The index we compiled is enormous, and if someone has a mid-north name, you can probably find it in there because many of the same families were moving around the area. This means we do get interest from people who just have a connection to the mid-north, not necessarily the Whalan family.
Most of our book sales have been to family, which is what we expected, but we do sell some to others. We recently attended a market in a small country town about a three-hour drive from Adelaide, and we sold six books. For a very niche family history book, we were really happy with that.
A lot of people were buying it because they know a Whalan, or they have a connection to the mid-north. A lot of the book is about the pioneering days and the shepherd lifestyle in that area.
The book is also in all the libraries we have to supply in Australia, plus some extra ones. We've also made donations of the book to some of the organizations we used in our research to make sure that information is preserved in their records.
Joanna: Tell people where they can find you and this book and everything else you do online.
The Wirrabara Whalans is my only book at the moment, but I am working on a young adult fiction series, which will appear in all those places once I get around to it. I've been busy with all the animals and bottle-feeding lambs four times a day!
Joanna: Well, look, it's been lovely to talk to you, Tegan. Thanks so much for your time.
Writing And Directing Audio Drama And The Constant Creator Mindset With Alison Haselden
Jul 28, 2025
How do you turn a big-budget TV show idea into an audio drama you can produce yourself? What does it take to create a 10-hour, 30-actor historical drama? And how can guerrilla marketing in airport bookstores help find your audience? Alison Haselden shares her experience of writing and directing Wicked Dames.
This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.
Joanna: Alison Haselden is an author, screenwriter, and actor. Her latest project is the historical fiction audio drama, Wicked Dames. Welcome to the show, Alison.
Alison: Thank you so much for having me, Jo.
Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. First off—
Tell us a bit more about you and your creative background.
Alison: I have been in the creative world since the day I was born. I'm so grateful to have had a very supportive family who realized they had no choice; I was going to be singing, dancing, acting, and putting on plays in the neighborhood whether they wanted me to or not.
I grew up in Orlando, Florida, which has always had a bit of a pipeline to Los Angeles. In the nineties, we had all the boy bands and the Musketeers, so there was a lot of opportunity there.
I started working in professional acting at age six and was fortunate to be able to work and train throughout my childhood in Orlando, and I was able to go to Los Angeles a bit as well.
I was also an avid reader and writer my entire life. I just love stories in every medium I could get my hands on, which has continued into my adult life. I went to university for journalism and marketing, which really honed my writing skills.
Coming out of university, I worked in content marketing for seven years. That helped me get my reps in for building writing stamina, as well as learning marketing skills that now help me so much in my acting and writing careers.
It's been a beautiful journey. I'm at a place this year where I can look back and see that —
In the years I thought I was treading water, I was actually building useful skills —
that I'm so grateful for now, even though they felt like detours at the time.
Now, I've quit the corporate world and I work for myself, marketing consulting for creative executives keeps the lights on while I pursue my acting and writing careers.
I act primarily in film and TV now. I just wrapped on my first series regular role in a limited series that should hopefully be coming out at the end of this year or in 2026. We released Wicked Dames in the fall of 2024, and I just finished writing my YA Fantasy. So, we've got a lot of projects going on.
Joanna: I love that. I love how you outlined that you also did jobs that maybe felt like you were treading water, but you were building on the side. I think some people think that you just go from child actor to TV shows to multimillionaire.
Alison: That is a common misconception.
Most of us are what I call “middle-class actors.”
Joanna: Like mid-list authors.
Alison: Exactly. It's the same thing.
Most folks that I work with, we all have something else going on on the side because this career is so inconsistent, and it's the same with writing. We all have to have multiple irons in the fire these days.
Joanna: On that, because you are juggling freelance work as well, with all these different projects and interests—
How do you manage your time with a portfolio career?
Alison: I used to be a “white-knuckle-it” kind of person and would hyper-schedule myself to try and pack every minute of every day with a box to check off. In the past two years, I have shifted away from that, and it's weirdly worked out better than I could have ever imagined. There's some kind of divine intervention there, I think.
Somehow, I rarely have competing deadlines and I follow my intuition in terms of what my priorities should be. If I have a deadline on something, of course, that gets put to the top of the pile, but I've been so fortunate that it's just worked out.
For example, this past year I was focusing solely on Wicked Dames from about April 2024 through the beginning of November 2024. Then I took a little break and an idea came to me, and I put my head down and wrote this whole YA fantasy I'm working on about witches in Nantucket.
Right when I finished that and needed a little break, this TV show opportunity came along. I couldn't really write while I was on set—it’s pretty demanding of your brain space—but it worked out because I needed to have time away before coming back for edits.
The less I try to control things, the more it weirdly works out in a way that is supportive of my creative process. There are so many different sides of our brain. I can't just be creatively brainstorming 24/7; I need to switch to the other side of my brain and do more logistical things.
For the way my energy works, being able to switch hats helps me recharge in the process, so I'm not over-functioning in one way for too long. Then I'm actually excited to go back and check in on another project.
Joanna: It sounds like you never do the same thing back-to-back; you're switching all the time.
Alison: Yes, and that part has been pure chance. I don't know how that's worked out so far, and maybe it won't be that way forever, but I really have been lucky enough to have quite a bit of variety that cycles through the year.
Joanna: Let's get into Wicked Dames. You mentioned the YA fantasy, but Wicked Dames is a historical story.
Why write Wicked Dames? And why make it an audio drama instead of a book?
Alison: One of the unique things about my background is that I don't sit down and say, “Okay, I want to write a film script,” or, “Okay, I want to write a novel.” My ideas download into my brain, and I know immediately what format I want to lead with. I do write almost everything in multiple forms of IP.
I'm working on two different books right now, and I'll probably write a pilot episode or a spec sheet for each of those, but both came to me as a novel first.
Wicked Dames, however, came to me and I saw it as a TV show. I saw the visuals of it so clearly; it just felt like a TV show. I have written the book version of Wicked Dames, but my intuition really wanted me to get it out there in as close to a TV format as possible.
Anyone who knows about film and TV knows that historical fiction is very expensive to make. So, rather than try to scrounge together an opportunity to make it as a pilot episode, I wanted to get the IP out there as soon as possible, but I wanted it to feel very experiential.
I wanted the audience to feel like they were really in that world, and an audio drama was the perfect solution. Unlike an audiobook, which is typically one voice reading the book verbatim, an audio drama is essentially a TV show without the visuals.
You get a more immersive experience with all the different actors playing the characters, plus music and sound effects. It seemed like the right medium to get the story out into the world, and I'm so glad I did it that way.
I write a lot of historical fiction, fantasy, and some contemporary rom-com. Those might sound very different, but to me, they all have an element of magic to them, which is the throughline.
I've always loved historical fiction; it's so magical. It's an escape, but also so grounding because we know that parts of it are real. It just all flowed in that way.
Joanna: In terms of writing one, people might be able to picture a TV script with camera directions and dialogue.
How do you format an audio drama script and add in things like sound effects?
Alison: Many people want to have strict rules, but really, there are no rules. I think there are even fewer rules for an audio drama script. I write it like a cross between a novel and a TV script.
The formatting on the page is structured like a TV script, so it doesn't read like a novel with paragraphs of text. We have the character breakdowns, the action, and the header that outlines the setting.
I do add a lot more to the action and description sections than I would for a traditional film or TV script. In this story, the narrator is doing a lot, so I wanted there to be plenty of description.
On my edit passes for Wicked Dames, I was thinking from the audience's perspective: if they are only listening with no visuals, what can be communicated via a sound effect and what cannot? That's where I would decide what kind of narration to add.
I didn't nitpick those details until the second or third editing pass. That really helped because you're going from being a storyteller to being more of a strategist, ensuring that your listeners have the best experience possible.
Joanna: Of course, you were both acting in and producing this.
Alison: Yes, I wore a lot of hats on this. I wrote it, I directed it, and I am a voice actor in it.
It was a lot, but I felt uniquely qualified to step into those roles. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to all authors, unless you have a desire to learn some of those things.
For me, I really wanted the opportunity to flex those skills. One day I would love to be a showrunner of a TV show, and this was a good training ground for that.
Joanna: Let's get into the challenges of doing an audio drama compared to, say, an audiobook, especially as an independent creator without big studio funding.
Alison: I'm going to share all my secrets. I don't think I would've had the confidence to do something like this if I didn't know about some of these tools and opportunities.
One of the biggest barriers to entry people imagine is finding actors, but the beautiful thing is that there are actors at all levels out there.
It's been a difficult time in the entertainment industry following COVID and the writer and actor strikes in 2023. Our industry is still struggling to recover, so there are more actors than you'd think who are passionate about the work and looking for projects. It is very possible to find incredible actors who will work within your budget.
The best places to find actors are sites like Actors Access or Backstage.
You have to do a little admin to get your account set up to post a casting call, but I cast all my actors through there. You can be transparent about your budget, set up the audition sides from your script, and then review everyone's profiles and submissions.
It seems like a lot, but I promise it's easier than you might think. There's a little nuance here. In the United States, I ran my project through the actors' union, SAG-AFTRA, because I wanted access to a wider net of actors.
You don't have to do this; you could do it as completely non-union, but then only non-union actors can be part of your project, which is totally fine. Those websites are open to both union and non-union projects.
This is where people get nervous—the technology. You have a few options to consider before casting. You could note in your casting call that you're only considering actors who already have recording equipment.
Or, you could make it open to all actors, but you would probably have to accommodate recording them, either by paying for their studio time or inviting them to a home studio.
Many actors who do voiceover work have microphones in their homes and can work with you over Zoom and send you the files. That is probably the easiest way.
I would say the biggest challenge for me, and the part I was least familiar with, was hiring an editor. The editing is everything, especially if you have a large cast and want lots of sound effects. The editor puts all of that together.
I would recommend saving up a decent amount of your budget for that because they put in a lot of hours. That's the part that takes the most time, the most budget, and the most back-and-forth to get the final product you envision.
Joanna: Give people an idea of the money, tell us how long the Wicked Dames series is and the scale of the production.
Alison: We have 10 episodes in Wicked Dames, and they all range between 35 to 60 minutes. So, it's about 10 hours of content. We had over 30 actors participate, all with different-sized roles.
I paid my talent hourly—$25 an hour—or sometimes per session, depending on how much work they were doing. I was super upfront that I did not have a big budget. I paid my editor $3,500, which was a good deal because he was looking for the experience for his portfolio. I got really lucky.
I was putting in a lot of my own effort, so I was saving a lot of money but putting in the hours myself. I was able to produce the audio drama for under $6,000, which is very much on the lower side.
I was directing, coordinating talent, and had a tight recording schedule. I recorded every single day for the entire month of June last year.
I found a group of actors who were really excited about the project and deepening their own artistry. It was a slow season, so everyone had extra free time.
All the people who were part of the project were really meant to be part of it, and they brought so much life and fun. Seeing how they brought their own take on the characters I wrote was a joy.
Joanna: How do you distribute an audio drama and how do you make money from it?
Alison: There are a lot of routes with this, and it depends on your goals.
For me, my main goal was to get my IP out there and have a strong portfolio piece showcasing my work as a writer, actor, and director all in one. I wanted to hopefully break even and then start to build a community around my project.
I'm happy to say I was able to break even, and we've built a lot of community. My TikTok grew exponentially to 24,000 followers.
I'm in this for the long haul, and with the end goal of one day making this a TV show, it was more important for me to get the IP out there than to turn this particular audio drama into a business. Because of that, I chose to release it for free.
I have donation links in the show notes for those who enjoy it. However, you could put up a paywall through platforms like Patreon or Substack. That would probably have made more money but would have lowered the visibility, and I wanted visibility more than a short-term financial gain. You can also try to get ads on it.
One of the ways I built community was by hosting several in-person, themed events with local coffee shops and bars, which allowed for profit-share opportunities. That worked well to not only bring in a little money, but also to build fans around what we were doing.
Joanna: You said you broke even. Was that from donations and events?
Alison: Yes, it was from the donations. People were loving the show, making it all the way through, and then they would send us a tip if they enjoyed it, and it was through those events. It was very unexpected and heartwarming to see that people enjoyed what they were listening to and wanted to donate to our production.
Joanna: What platform are you publishing on?
Alison: It's the same as any other podcast. I just used the Spotify for Podcasters platform. It's cross-posted, so it's on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, and YouTube. It's accessible for free on all of those platforms.
I also have my own webpage for it with additional content. We filmed a video trailer, which was fun. There's a bit of a mystery in the story, so on the website, you can get some of the materials that the girls discover to put together the clues. I like making things interactive where I can.
Joanna: Now you've started— You better tell us more about the actual story.
Who are the Wicked Dames?
Alison:Wicked Dames is about young women who seduced and killed Nazis during World War II. I was inspired by the very real stories of many young girls and women who did this—some as young as 13 years old. Some worked alone, some with local resistance groups, and some with official intelligence agencies.
I had read these stories over the years and thought it was crazy that no one had done anything with them. We have so many World War II stories, but most are about men in primary combat.
At the same time, my fiancé's grandmother was a Holocaust survivor, and her mother did incredible things to keep her family alive. I was hearing those stories, and I think they combined in my head and spit out Wicked Dames.
I wanted to explore the shades of gray. For young women in Berlin during this time, there were many different nuances to their experiences. Each of our girls comes from a different background and has personal challenges that lead them to work together.
We also have a bit of a serial killer moment; one of the girls in the group is a serial killer who is just benefiting from being alive during this time of war. I always thought,
“When would be the best time to be a serial killer?” Probably during a world war.
She's mixed in with girls who are quite innocent and trying to do what's right, and others who have their own vendettas.
There are a lot of layers, a lot of mystery, and I think it's a pretty fun ride. I like to say it's a cross between Little Women and Peaky Blinders, with a dash of Inglourious Basterds.
Joanna: You come from a marketing background.
How are you marketing the audio drama?
Alison: I definitely like to use a mix of tactics; I am not a “put all your eggs in one basket” kind of gal.
Digitally, we have the website, an email list, and social media promotion on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Threads. We had those in-person events and partnered with podcasts and other media outlets.
My favorite thing that I did was a bit of guerrilla marketing. I ordered a bunch of bookmarks with QR codes and wrote handwritten secret notes on antique-looking paper. I travel a lot, and so do people in my family, so I distributed those amongst everyone.
Anytime we went to the airport, we were stuffing these in airport bookstore books, trying to pick relevant ones like other historical fiction or World War II texts. I would also go to my local libraries and do that.
It's a delightful surprise if you pick up a book and there's a secret note inside. I would frame it as, “You've been recruited by the Wicked Dames. Learn more and check out the website.” It was really fun to track the QR codes and see where in the world the bookmarks ended up.
Joanna: That sounds amazing. Even if it didn't pay off in click-throughs.
Alison: And it made for really great social media content. People online thought the idea was cool, so the posts I made about doing that got a lot of engagement and traffic. It's all connected.
Joanna: You started by saying you want this to be a TV show.
What happens next? Are you pitching it as a TV show?
Alison: I am so intuitively led now. I sat and brainstormed about the next steps, and what came to me was to write more.
Historical fiction is a difficult sell, especially right now. This IP is going to sit out there and hopefully continue to build community, and maybe it will come across the desk of someone who is excited by it.
Right now, I'm focusing on getting my foothold in through some of my other projects that I think would have an easier time getting a green light, like a contemporary rom-com or fantasy. Fantasy, even though it's big budget, is a more popular sell these days. I'm focusing on those projects.
My YA fantasy is completed and in edits, and I'm about halfway done with the first draft of my rom-com. I'm actually already talking with one network about that project, and I'm not even done with it.
If I hadn't listened to my intuition and had just continued pouring all my energy into Wicked Dames, I wouldn't have been able to make headway on these other projects, which I think will open up more opportunities and get me to a place where I can say, “Oh, and by the way, I have Wicked Dames here.”
In publishing, they often tell you to focus on one genre. However —
Straddling both the publishing and entertainment worlds, I've noticed it's beneficial to have a few different genres.
Having options helps when adjusting your sales strategy with the industry's ebb and flow. Sometimes they want something low-budget, and other times, during an abundance period, you can pitch your high-budget projects. I've let myself dabble for that reason.
In an industry that's so flaky, nothing's guaranteed until it's on the screen or the book is in your hands. I've taken that as permission to do whatever I want.
Joanna: Some people get disheartened by that and feel like giving up. How do you deal with that?
Alison: I certainly do get disheartened, but one of the blessings of having grown up working in this world is that I realize how impersonal it is. That can sting, but it's also freedom.
Timing is everything. It's easy to think that if something we love doesn't take off when we want it to, it's never going to work out. And yet, there's so much evidence of the opposite—projects started 10 years ago that suddenly find the right time and all the pieces fall into place.
I've seen too much evidence of that, and that's what I turn to when I'm having a hard day. I look at those stories from other artists, and that gives me hope. I've never been a competitive person, except with myself. I believe that seeing other people's success and their journeys is proof of what is possible for us.
Also, like I've said this whole time, I allow myself to indulge in what genuinely lights me up creatively. I'm always happier with that work, and people always like that work better too.
On the days I'm feeling down, I remind myself that I genuinely delight in the work. It's the business side of it that's the sucky part. So, I let myself go back into my creative cave, and that's where I recharge.
Joanna: That's super encouraging.
Where can people find you and Wicked Dames and everything you do online?
Alison: All of the updates on the multifaceted aspects of my career are on my website, AlisonHaselden.com. I'm also pretty active on social media—Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Threads—under my name, Alison Haselden.
I also have a fun new series on YouTube called “The Showrunner Note,” where I walk through my pitch for adapting popular books into TV shows or films. If you are a fellow book and media lover, that might be something fun. I would love to connect.
Joanna: Well, thank you so much for your time, Alison. That was great.
The Artisan Author With Johnny B Truant
Jul 21, 2025
Are you feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to constantly release new books and battle algorithms? Do you wonder if there's a more sustainable, low-stress path to a successful author career? Is it possible to focus on art, build a loyal fanbase, and escape the publishing rat race? In this episode, Johnny B. Truant discusses the artisan author approach.
This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com
Joanna: Johnny B. Truant is the author of over one hundred and fifty books across multiple genres, including thriller, science fiction, fantasy, comedy, and nonfiction. His latest book is The Artisan Author: The Low-Stress, High-Quality, Fan-Focused Approach to Escaping the Publishing Rat Race. So welcome back to the show, Johnny.
Johnny: Man, it is so fun to be on The Creative Penn. It's just like coming home. It's just so great. So thank you for having me.
Joanna: Well, you've been on the show multiple times over the years, and the last time was a couple of years ago when you were pivoting into this stage of your author journey. So we are going to jump straight into the topic today.
Why The Artisan Author and why now? What were you seeing in the author community that made you want to write this book?
Johnny: I used to do a lot of author education. We had a podcast and a book and all that. Around the time COVID started, I stopped doing a lot of that and just focused on fiction.
When I came back to the 20Books Conference, the last one, so much had changed. People were really ramping up AI in different ways, the rapid release had gotten faster, and all the tactical stuff had gotten more tactical.
I just remembered thinking, “Boy, I always wanted to just write books my own way, at my own speed.” Despite going fast, I don't like being forced to go fast and I don't know if this is a game I want to play anymore.
You have to fit into all the very specific categories that the algorithms like to promote, and a lot of people are playing those games. In the midst of that, I did talk to another author. You may know her. She's British and runs a podcast.
Joanna: Yes, it was me!
Johnny: I know that you had said—I don't know if you used the word ‘artisan,' but you definitely described a lot of the things that I'm looking at now, which is, “I don't want to go in that direction either, and I'm doing more and more of what I want to do and trusting my true fans to be interested in it.”
Over the course of the next year, I started thinking more and more about that. What if instead of going into that faster, faster, rapid-release, kind of a death spiral sometimes—a lot of burnouts is related to that—
What if instead we acted like artists who are selling fine goods to very discerning customers?
I would just call them artists and readers. We don't have to worry about price and we don't have to worry about fighting the algorithms. We can just rely on a one-to-one connection to true fans rather than hoping the algorithms will find people for us.
Having known you for many years, our conversation was sort of, “Look, don't give it all up because you are great at this.” I've been reading your writing for a long, long time, before you wrote fiction. I think what is nice about this period right now is that we do get to question things.
For a while, there were kind of rules. You guys had a book, what was it, The Fiction Formula or something like that, at one point?
Johnny: You know, it's so funny because I work with Sean Platt. I was working with him a lot more in that nonfiction space, and Sean will do things like that. He'll say, “Okay, we're going to call it The Fiction Formula.” And I'm like, “But we've already talked about how there's no formula.”
He's like, “No, no, that's the genius. It's going to be called The Fiction Formula. There is no formula,” because he wants the catch.
Joanna: But the thing is, there almost was for a bit.
Like you said, we met again at the last 20BooksTo50k. That was actually a thing for a period of time. Now I kind of say, “Well, one book to 50k.” Like you said, you can, if you do fine goods to discerning customers, you can do one book to 50k. It's a very different time.
It's almost like at the beginning of the indie revolution, we got to reinvent the way things were done. I feel like that's where we are again.
We are reinventing the way things were done because what is new becomes old.
I feel like where we are now, fifteen-plus years into the indie revolution, or maybe seventeen-plus years into it, now we can reinvent it all over again.
Johnny: Yes, and that's something that I explored in The Artisan Author book. It was almost a little bit of a history lesson, not because I wanted to bore people with it, but because we were on this very sensible and aspirational trajectory for a while.
We came out of the old traditional publishing days where you had to query an agent and hope that you hit the right person at the right time and in the right mood. Instead, we were suddenly without gatekeepers and we could do what we wanted.
Then it started to be, “Okay, so if you write more books, you'll make more money.” We helped to contribute to that with Write. Publish. Repeat.
Then it became that at all costs, with no governor on it. Like, let's just go faster. Let's forget about the caveats of trying to enjoy yourself and maybe trying to write art that you actually care about.
A lot of people just went to extremes with the rapid release thing, and that's what I think really hit me when I went back to 20Books.
It was like when you watch a kid grow up and then you're away for a year and you see that kid again, and that kid has gotten so big. It's kind of like that. I came back and it was like, “Oh, I remember rapid release.” It was this annoying little thing over there, and then it had become this huge thing and had become almost default.
That's what bothered me the most. It wasn't that it was so dominant, it was that I knew that there were new writers coming in—not just at that conference or the Author Nation conference to follow it, but people who watch from afar, who listen to the podcasts and watch the YouTube videos.
I just thought of those poor authors coming in and how overwhelming this must be. “I finally finished the book I always wanted to write. Okay, now write six more and release them every three weeks.” It's just terrible.
Joanna: It is. But I wanted to make the point that —
I've never done rapid release, and a lot of authors were never rapid release. It just became a loud segment of the community —
— and possibly true that the people who were making more income that way. As you say, also in the time that we've been doing this, people have disappeared.
Now, you disappeared, but you came back.
Johnny: You said that they're loud and that more of them appeared. That's part of the problem, really. Because they are loud—and by loud I don't mean necessarily obnoxious, I just mean that you tend to talk about it a lot when you've found something that works like that.
It's a vanishingly small percentage of authors, but because they are so loud, they're the ones who usually speak or write books or whatever. So it looks to people as if that's the norm, and if you aren't making serious bank as a rapid-release author, then you're just not trying hard enough.
It's not; it's this tiny percentage. I remember reading in one of Becca Syme's books, she had done the research to determine how many books actually make money, and it's the vast, vast, vast majority who don't make any money at all.
Yet those people are being given the same advice as everyone else, as if that's the majority and that's the way the majority works, and it's just not true.
Then if we come to what you mean by an ‘artisan author,' what are some of the hallmarks?
Johnny: Well, the first thing is it's art first and profit second.
I think that's the key defining hallmark, meaning that you're writing what it is that you want to write. You can define art however you want to define it. It usually just means, “This is the thing I want to do, and so I'm going to do it.”
But practically speaking, the biggest thing that I think is going to be attractive to people is you don't have to burn yourself out. You don't have to keep doing this.
When I came back this year, I gave a presentation called “The Artisan Author,” with the tagline “the low-stress, high-quality, fan-focused way to beat the publishing rat race.”
People came up to me after and they said, “I didn't really know that this was an option. Thank you for giving me some clarity into the fact that it's not rapid release or nothing,” which is what most people think. So, yes, there was a lot of appetite for it.
Joanna: What are the other things you are focusing on under that artisan umbrella?
Johnny: Well, certainly—and I didn't really finish my thought, so I apologize—the idea is that release of pressure. “Take your time” is another one of the pillars. Connecting with fans is a huge one to me.
That leads to this weird kind of backwards logic where usually self-published authors want to think bigger and faster because a lot of us have this very strong entrepreneurial streak, and it's almost eclipsed the artistic streak that people used to predominantly come into publishing for.
It used to be you came in because you wanted to write a book, and maybe you'd make money at it. Now it's like, “Here's a way to make money, and so I'm going to do it as quickly as I can.”
The customer focus thing is anti-leverage. Rapid release is trying to do as much leverage as possible. “If I make this one book, if I use the algorithms to my maximal advantage, then I can blow up without needing to do necessarily as much work.”
It's very highly leveraged, and the artisan approach is actually the opposite, where it's very, very one-to-one. So that means that you're making individual connections.
So, I'll give you an example. I do a lot of live selling, and I know that you wanted to ask about that. That's a super high-quality bond. When I meet those people, it's like I almost get them to like me before they even buy the book. So they leap very close to the fan end of the spectrum rather than the casual end.
I had somebody email me yesterday and say, “Hey, I bought one of your books at some open-air market here in Austin. I wish you had pressured me to buy the whole series because now I'm out of books. When are you doing this again?”
So tonight, he and one of his friends, I'm going to take books to them and I'm going to sell them. It's nineteen total books between these two guys, but that's the sort of quality connection to fans rather than a one-to-many connection. That slow scale, I think, is much more logical to people.
It's something that we can actually imagine because it follows the normal rules of regular commerce and interpersonal communication in a way that rapid release never did, which was just anonymous algorithms.
This entire thing, the founding principle, is Kevin Kelly's “1000 True Fans.” We're not looking to do that rapid-release paradigm, so you can't do artisan things with those customers.
You need to invert the paradigm and say, “Okay, rather than trying for high leverage, I'm going to connect with people one-on-one. I'm going to create high-quality stuff, and then find the individual people who are interested in that and then bring them into my camp until I have theoretically a thousand of them,” according to Kevin Kelly.
Joanna: It's amazing how well that has stood the test of time. That was, I think the original one was back in 2006, which again, would've been around the time when you were writing on Copyblogger and doing the online marketing stuff.
This is what's so crazy, is you and I both come from that highly leveraged world where online marketing was the primary thing. Yet now, you've said in the book and you just said there about how you love live selling, and I find that very surprising.
I'm an introvert and I find it incredibly hard. I don't know whether it's also being a highly sensitive person, but I find a lot of visual stimulation just too tiring. I can't look at all these people's faces. I can't deal with the noise.
I wondered if you could talk about how you discovered that you like live selling? What are your tips for people?
Johnny: Well, this is actually kind of funny because it is a really good fit for me, and in retrospect, I see why. It's because I have a strong extrovert streak in me that a lot of authors don't. So it is a little more natural for me, but I didn't know that.
I was at the last Author Nation this year, and I actually had a presentation scheduled, but I hadn't done any of this live selling. This is only six months old.
I talked to our mutual friend, Mark Lefebvre, and Mark was talking about how much he missed going out and doing book signings. I said, “Oh my God, I have nightmares about that. Just imagining being that poor author at the table who everybody's trying not to make eye contact with.”
His reaction was so genuinely shocked. He said, “Why?” Someone that I knew and respected and who I thought I shared a lot in common with, really loves it, and was shocked that I wouldn't.
What I started to realize is, yes, you can go out and you can be the sad author behind the table who's just sitting there and everybody's ignoring. Or you can take it as part of the art, and the puzzle of solving how to market these books has become such a fun part of it. How can I sell them?
So to answer the question, I've done everything from small farmer's markets up to my first Comic-Con coming soon. I've done huge street festivals.
What I've started to realize is it's just about being nice. I mean, that sounds so basic, but I don't go out and say, “Hey, want a book? Want a book?” and chase people down the street.
Instead, the book people, they turn toward you.
They express interest, and so they're already warm by the time you talk to them. You're not having to go out there and be a carnival barker.
I just ask, “Hey, are you a reader? What are you into?” And we'll start talking about books.
So if somebody's interested in my Beam series, for instance, they're looking at that.
I'll say, “Hey, did you see the original Battlestar Galactica?” Oh yes, they've always seen it. Then I say, “You know how that was really a political power play drama that just happens to take place in space?” “Yes, I know that.” “Well, The Beam is a political power play drama that just happens to take place in blah, blah, blah.”
It becomes much more about having conversations, and sometimes they don't buy, but that's fine. I've met some really interesting people.
When you go in with that attitude of “I'm just going to go out and meet people who are interested in books,” that shift alone makes a huge difference, for me anyway. I don't really care if they buy, although they tend to do so. It's kind of amazing.
The things that have shocked me the most are learning about my customers in ways that I never ever could have before. I've learned which of my covers are most attractive. I've learned that my covers in particular are attractive enough, apparently, that people will usually buy a book without even reading the back.
I will talk to them, they'll say, “Oh, that sounds good,” and they don't ask the price and they don't read the back, and they just buy it.
I've learned that there are things that I can recommend to people. So one of the things I get a lot is, “Oh, I would love to get back into reading, but I haven't done it as much.” It's like they're apologizing to me.
So instead of saying, “Oh, well that's too bad, see ya,” I'll usually recommend something really fast-paced like The Target, which is like John Wick meets Fight Club. A lot of people go, “Oh, it's a fast-paced short book that has that energy. Okay, I will do it.”
I would never see these things and I would never meet these people and I would never have people saying, “I want to buy three hundred dollars worth of books from you if you come down and meet me today,” if I wasn't doing all this stuff.
Joanna: So, some practical questions. You have a huge backlist, and when you are doing these in-person sales at, say, a market, you've got to set up a table. It is only so big, and you've got to schlep all the stuff down, and books are heavy.
Give us a sense of what the physical setup is and how you decide which books to take out of your massive collection.
Johnny: Well, one of the key things in The Artisan Author book that I talk about a lot is, “it depends.” So I just want to say this ahead of time: I'm going tell you what I do, but it is not advice. It is not, “you should do this.”
I have several friends, some of them we have in common, who do a lot of conventions and they'll say things like, “Take fewer books, just take a few, because it's an overwhelming environment. Make your table really clean. Don't bring everything.”
I'm going to bring absolutely everything I have to a Comic-Con, which is not the quote-unquote “official” way to do it. It isn't what most people do.
It works really well with my style because I have such a broad backlist and because they're interested in me first—which is an artisan principle, you're trying to interest them in you, not just an individual book. There are people who will say, “Well, I don't really like sci-fi.”
“Okay, well, do you like thrillers? Do you like urban fantasy? Do you like regular fantasy?” There's always something else. That sense of visual overwhelm is actually a positive thing because it just looks like, “Wow, there's a lot of stuff here.”
Typically, an outdoor booth space is ten feet by ten feet. I have to do a lot of them outside, which I'm not always super happy about, but that's the way they are here in Texas. So I have a ten by ten tent.
For Comic-Con, it's a little smaller, it's eight by eight, and it's just a puzzle each time to say, “Well, how should I arrange things?” When I'm outside, I typically do a corner if I can, because that allows me twenty feet of space rather than just ten to stack up all my books.
I have to adjust every single time. It's different buyers, it's different setups, it's different locations. For me, it's just about displaying the books, and then that attracts them.
Usually the book people come over with big eyes like, “Ooh, books.” They already like the idea of the books. They're like, “Wow, I didn't think there were going to be book people here.” So I just talk to them and see where their tastes lie, and then I guide them towards something that they might enjoy.
Joanna: Yes, so what you just said there I think is a really big point: they didn't know there'd be book people there. So these are not book fairs in general, these are other types of markets.
Johnny: Yes. In the book, I have a section that's like, “Finding Readers.” I divided that into multiple buckets where you're either doing the passive thing, where you're trying to find readers on Amazon or wherever.
The best ways to do this, I think, is what I call the third bucket, which is “creating customers out of nowhere” or something like that, because that's what it feels like.
I'm going to somewhere where people are not expecting to buy books. They don't know that they're in the market for a book.
By the way, if you're getting cold chills at the idea of selling live, that's so not the point. This isn't a live-selling book. It just happens to be something that I really enjoy and that works well for me. But there is some degree of personal connection in everything in that “finding readers out of nowhere” sort of thing.
If you let people know that you are an author, just casually in your personal life, eventually you'll find that the word gets around, because authors are interesting to people.
Some of those people, they didn't know they were in the market, but hey, “I just met an author. Maybe I want to buy one of their books.” That's what all of those most effective artisan strategies are for me.
It's like you're fishing in a pond where nobody else is fishing. You're just meeting people and nobody else is pursuing them. So when I'm set up at a street festival, nobody is there trying to buy a book, and then they go, “Oh, there are books.” And it's like I don't have any competition, and they self-sort. It's a very cool thing.
Joanna: I like that. Perhaps it's also less intimidating because when I saw your stall at Author Nation, you were in a room with hundreds of other authors with books. So it's very hard not to have some kind of comparison.
I know Matt Dinniman, the huge LitRPG author, had a queue out the door. Whereas if you are an author and you are at a fair next to cupcakes or soaps or something, I suppose you definitely can be noticed by the people who want that. So I actually like that tip.
How does live selling work financially?
Johnny: Well, first of all, I want to say that yes, you do need to have more books than you're going to sell, because that's something that isn't always noticed. At least that's my philosophy, because a sparse table is kind of a sad table.
Imagine you went into Barnes and Noble and there were three copies left. No, you want those shelves overflowing. So in my house right now, I probably have five to six hundred books, and I'll typically take a few hundred to any given event.
It depends on the event. I did a big event called the Pecan Street Festival here in Austin and I sold about two hundred and twenty books, but it's more common at a smaller one to sell thirty or so. It'll give you an idea of the scope.
What I've found is that as I've dialed this in, because I am iterating very quickly, I'm doing an event and then calibrating and learning. I also stepped up from very small markets to bigger markets.
What I've learned is that for me personally—and again, this is me personally, your mileage may vary—
My table fee, meaning what I pay to be there, tends to be ten to fifteen percent of my expected gross sales.
Because that's such a reliable thing, I'm actually actively looking for ones with big table fees.
I want to pay as much as possible, because if I'm going to go out there for a weekend, I want something where I'm going to walk away with more money than I would otherwise.
You just kind of have to be aware that this is an area where if you did want to get into live selling, you do need to invest in yourself, but you can start very small. What I tell people is, go slow.
If you're interested in this, you can split a table with somebody at an event if you are intimidated by the idea of having to be there the entire time, because you can come and go if you have a table mate.
You can start at a very small farmer's market. The first farmer's market that I went to locally here was thirty-five dollars. Compare that to the Comic-Cons, which can be near a thousand dollars.
If you just think small to begin with and you just take a limited stock, then your investment in the table fee, the equipment, and the books is much smaller.
I've just kept reinvesting. If I made three hundred and fifty dollars and I spent one hundred and fifty dollars, then that gives me two hundred dollars that I then go back and buy more books for the next bigger event. So you can step into it, and I would suggest that people do, if they're interested.
Joanna: Tell us about the process of doing a Shopify store and any lessons learned from that.
Johnny: Well, again, did you see my shout-out? I did mention that Jo Penn has a really good “Minimum Viable Store” episode of a podcast. That's kind of the approach that I took.
The thing about Shopify for me, I don't know if this is true for everybody, is that it takes a certain amount of momentum to get it started, like a rock rolling down a hill. I have found that if I'm not actively advertising, my store traffic dwindles to almost nothing.
So given that you have to pay for the software every single month, it's one of those things where I don't know whether to recommend it or not. I tried to give a whole bunch of caveats to people and said, “If you're ready to go in, or if you just want to have it established so you can build it, then great, but know what you're getting into.”
There's so much talk about “go direct” that I think there's probably a lot of people who are investing all the time and money and hassle and mental headaches of building a Shopify store and then not getting the reward out of it to pay for it.
I also know so many people who I would consider artisan authors who do a lot of direct selling, and they're largely advertising-driven. So that's kind of the way I look at it.
If you can afford to start playing with advertising, it might be a better move financially, but if you just want to begin growing your store, you can do it over time. What do you think? Do you need to advertise aggressively?
Joanna: I don't advertise, but like you and I, I have always done email lists and also launching. Where you do in-person sales, I always say, “Buying direct from me means buying from my Shopify stores.”
So my hardbacks and stuff are on my Shopify, the bundles are on Shopify, the special deals, the whole series—
I just have so much that is Shopify-only.
My workbooks and all of my website stuff, the podcast, my emails—they all direct people to those pages first.
So you are right, you need traffic. I don't think you need to advertise because I don't advertise to my stores right now, but I do send traffic from my other sources, like this show, for example.
Johnny: Right. Well, you're kind of your own advertising too. That is a thing.
Joanna: It's marketing. It's not paid advertising. But you are right, you can't just build it and they will come, but I don't think you can do that anywhere. You can't do that on Amazon, you can't do that wherever.
Johnny: No, but what I love about this is that —
Every artisan author is different. The metaphor is, “learn to use a compass, don't try to follow a map.”
The fact that your approach is already so different from my experience and some other people that I know is really cool.
You're able to drive artisan traffic on your Shopify store, and I have focused so much on driving it in live sales. It's just different pools, different buckets.
Joanna: Let's come to one of the things in the subtitle of the book, which says “The Low-Stress Approach.” Low stress is a very interesting term to use, Johnny, because you taught marketing back in the day.
In the book, you say you don't do social media anymore. There's a lot of things that are stressful, social media being one of them for me, but marketing still matters.
What can you recommend for people who do want this low-stress approach to book marketing?
Johnny: So interestingly, I work much more now than I used to. Neither of us, I think, were ever doing rapid release, not by its formal definition, but it is such a high-churn thing. That low-pressure thing… I think there's a huge difference between what you have to do and when you have options.
When I say that I work a lot now, I'm choosing to build something on my own timetable, and I can do it however I want and follow the results that I'm getting. What bugs me about rapid release is the “have to” of it.
I think that's where the stress and the pressure comes from, because the algorithm demands that you keep producing, otherwise it falls apart. So, to be clear, the target I'm looking at as maybe not so great for a lot of authors is rapid release with an almost exclusive Kindle Unlimited focus.
There are plenty of people who use Kindle Unlimited who I think are artisan authors, or can be, because they just have that for their eBooks and they have a sensible funnel.
Typically it's that myopic focus on largely Amazon-only because it's exclusive, largely just eBooks only, and then America-only almost by default.
When you talk about international, that bugs the crap out of me that it seems like so many authors, including authors in other countries sometimes, are considering, “Well, I'm just going to hit the US market primarily.” Because, yes, Amazon has stores outside of the US, but it's really the US that we're focusing on.
So that sort of churn, that very specific thing… you don't have diversification of assets, so you have to keep producing because that's all you have. When I say low pressure, it means that if you wanted to take a two-week vacation, you could do it.
Meanwhile, I know rapid-release authors who are like, “Man, if I want to take a two-week vacation, I have to work really, really fast so that I have something to release while I'm on vacation. Otherwise, I'm going to get to the four or five-week mark and my whole empire is going to collapse.”
It's that relentless grind and the fact that you almost have to do it forever—because when does the algorithm give you a break? I think that's what's leading so many people into this horrible burnout.
Joanna: Well then, can you comment on the lack of social media? Because—
I feel like another rule that people have at the moment is you have to be on social media to be an author.
Johnny: Yes, I don't believe that at all. I don't like social media.
By the way, that's no judgment. I know plenty of people do like it. I just don't, and so I don't do the things that I don't want to do. I think that an artisan author is kind of stubborn and says, “Well, I don't want to do things that I don't want to do.”
For me, I think that there are many different ways to focus. I had a guy next to me at a live stall recently, and he was just enamored with my displays and kept saying, “You have to do social media, man.” What I kept trying to tell him was, “I have X amount of energy and focus, and I can spend it wherever I want.”
At the time I was talking to him, I was choosing to spend it around the square in a small Texas town selling books. That was how I was using my energy because there are many different things that you could do that could make a lot of money, but you have to pick and choose them. Otherwise, I just think we get spread too thin.
For me, that's just a choice that I've made not to do social media, but there are plenty of other choices. The people who do social media heavily might decide, “I'm not going to do advertising,” or, “I'm certainly not going to sell live.” So it's just a different choice for me. I have opted out of that.
You're right, everybody says you must do social media, and I'm here to tell you that you don't. I don't do it at all.
My off-Amazon sales—Kickstarter and live sales alone—are basically my bread and butter right now and are enough to live on.
Joanna: I'm almost completely off it, but I'm still on X for looking at things and I put some pictures on Instagram @jfpennauthor , but I'm just not on it every day.
I think more and more, as you say, part of the artisan approach is choosing what you want to do because it's a lifestyle as well, right? It's a lifestyle that we want, and we want to live this way, and we want it to be sustainable.
So you mentioned Kickstarter there, and of course I also love Kickstarter. What I love about it, apart from being able to do amazing books and gorgeous signed things, is that it's more campaign-focused.
So you can do a big push for a couple of weeks and then you fulfill. So I like that kind of approach too, which I think works with taking a break and stuff like that.
Why do you like Kickstarter?
Because this is your second or third, something like that?
Johnny: No, it's actually my sixth. The Kickstarter for The Artisan Author is my sixth because we were old school. Sean and I did Fiction Unboxed and then StoryShop back around 2014 or 2016 or so. It was a while ago, before Brandon Sanderson nuked Kickstarter with his books.
The reason that I like it… interestingly, I just thought it was a cool tool to play with originally. “Boy, I can do these cool, beautiful books and I can have a direct connection, and from a business standpoint, I can have a higher average order value” and that sort of thing.
What's been interesting is that as I've really been thinking in an artisan direction, my brain has been there and I've realized, “Oh, launches don't really matter in the way that they used to.”
For me, a typical book launch was on Amazon… now I think, “Oh, well, the Kickstarter should just be my launch.” Then I don't really have to have a launch on the bookstores.
Now, you need some mechanism to get some reviews and stuff because that matters, but you can ask your Kickstarter backers to review your book on Amazon if you want.
The back-shelving of Amazon has kind of made me say, “Well, the Kickstarter is just my main tool now. That's just how I launch.” And when it's been launched, then it's been launched and it becomes one more book in my catalog.
I don't have to keep throwing fuel on that fire in the same way because the people who are coming back to me week after week, they're self-fueling. I don't need to hit them with some algorithmic thing on Amazon.
Joanna: Tell us what you are doing for this Kickstarter because this interview goes out as you are doing a Kickstarter.
This is actually kind of fun. I wanted to just do the Kickstarter for the reasons that I've already mentioned, and I thought, “Well, okay, I can create the audiobook and the paperback and the ebook and then I'll have a nice hardback special edition.”
The more I thought about it and the more I did comparison shopping and market research, I realized—and I knew this—that usually for a non-fiction Kickstarter, you're able to offer some sort of higher-touch service.
So I've kind of reframed—and stick with me on this because it's a little weird—I don't really like online courses because so many of them just rub me the wrong way. I know I made a bunch of them, and I'm just kind of burned out on that. I was like, “Wouldn't it be cool if I could do a course, but I don't want to do a course like that? That sucks.”
I was talking to my wife, who had coached me through something a little while ago where I was feeling kind of lonely out here, not being around people. She said, “Well, you always really liked college. You've talked about wanting to lecture at a college. Wouldn't that be cool?”
Those conversations came together and I thought, “What if I were to do it like a college?”
I get that it's a little weird, that it would be like an Artisan University, but rather than having a bunch of pre-recorded things with some sort of grandiose promises, it's more like, “No, what if you were to go through and we were to treat the book like a textbook over a ten-week curriculum and have units and discussions and a final exam and all the sort of trappings of college?”
It felt like a really cool experiment. So it's very different from the typical online course, but that's the way I'm framing everything.
If you want to just self-learn and you just want to get the ebook or the paperback or whatever, that's great. But then I have these many tiers of attending the course, from auditing it to doing high-touch accountability groups and almost like private tutoring. So it's kind of cool. I'm really curious to see what happens and how people like it.
Joanna: And of course, people can just get the ebook if they want.
This is one of the important things about Kickstarter: to have different tiers for different ways that people might want to interact with you.
Johnny: Yes, and it'll be available as a normal book too. If you aren't into Kickstarter, you can just go and search for it. It's on Amazon and Kobo and Barnes & Noble and all those places as a pre-order.
For people who really like the Kickstarter energy, I thought this would be cool. I kind of like the idea of doing the professor thing. I think that might be really neat.
Joanna: Where can people find you and your books and the Kickstarter online?
Johnny: Well, most importantly, the Kickstarter is at JohnnyBTruant.com/artisan, and that'll redirect to the regular book after the Kickstarter.
Then I'm at JohnnyBTruant.com. There are links to my live selling schedule if you happen to be in or around Austin or anywhere I'm going, or if you want to check out my book catalog or anything like that.
Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Johnny. That was great.
How To Get More Book Reviews With Joe Walters
Jul 14, 2025
Are you struggling to get reviews for your book? Wondering how to navigate the different types of reviews, from customer feedback to professional blurbs? Joe Walters from IndependentBookReview.com gives his tips.
Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna
Joe Walters is the author of The Truth About Book Reviews: An Insider's Guide to Getting and Using Reviews to Grow Your Readership, and also runs IndependentBookReview.com, which focuses on reviewing indie books.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
What are the three different types of book reviews?
How to get customer reviews, whether you're a new author or more established
Why blurbs / editorial reviews are still worth getting and how to use them
Pitching influencers, book bloggers, and more
What kind of reviews can you pay for, and what can you definitely NOT pay for?
Handling negative reviews, and the importance of getting feedback before publication
Joanna: Joe Walters is the author of The Truth About Book Reviews: An Insider's Guide to Getting and Using Reviews to Grow Your Readership, and also runs IndependentBookReview.com, which focuses on reviewing indie books. So welcome to the show, Joe.
Joe: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Joanna: It's good to have you on. So first up—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.
Joe: I started writing back in college and fell in love with it through Ray Bradbury. I wanted to be a high school English teacher, but I learned pretty quickly that teaching was a lot of work when I came home, and not the same as discussing books in college.
So, I decided to become a volunteer reader for a literary magazine called Indianola Review. We were print and digital, and I would read short stories with a team and vote on whether they would be published. I absolutely loved that.
I moved away from teaching and became a server so that I could have more time to read and write. While I was serving, I found a job in Oregon as the marketing director at a small press called Inkwater Press.
By some miracle, I got that job and had to figure out what book marketing was. It's a long game, and I read your book and so many others about how to do it. I got my feet wet, figured out how to market and sell books, and how to get authors who I knew cared about their writing read by more people.
Then I had to move from Portland, Oregon, and come back home to Pennsylvania. But I didn't want to stop being in publishing, so I started Independent Book Review.
I knew that indie authors needed a platform for book reviews, and I knew I could do a good job with it.
I started building that and worked freelance for two other indie presses, Paper Raven Books and Sunbury Press. I was targeting book reviews for them, doing metadata, book descriptions, author bios—anything you could think of for book marketing.
I was doing all of that for those presses while building Independent Book Review. A couple of years ago, Independent Book Review became my full-time job. So every day, I'm editing and promoting reviews, and it's truly the best job I've ever had.
Joanna: I love that. I love that you have loved books and stories so much that you've dedicated so much time to it. But why indie books then? Because you obviously worked in the more traditional side as well, and you come from literature at university and all that.
Why did you choose indie books?
Joe: I just knew how much they needed it. It has nothing to do with quality why they're not getting picked up by major review companies or major blurbers. Their books are still great.
They still get editing and great cover design, but they don't have big teams or a lot of money behind them pushing the books. I knew how much I could at least be another voice for them.
“Indie” really means all of the authors that you know down the street, your friends. It's very rare that you're friends with Stephen King.
I'm trying to help the little guy who loves writing and books and just wants to get his work out there.
So, I'm all indie all the time, that's for sure. Except for my leisure reading—sometimes I dabble elsewhere.
Joanna: We all read around. When you are a big reader like we are, you hardly ever look at the publisher, right? It's not like we go shopping by publisher, but you are right in terms of who reviews stuff. Then your own book—
What kind of writing have you done, and tell us why you wanted to do this book?
Joe: I've always been a fiction writer. I've been writing short stories for a long time. I'm still working on a novel I started 10 years ago, and it's not there yet. I wanted to finish that book before I got my book review book out, but then I just had to get the book review book out.
I couldn't wait on my little 10-year-old protagonist anymore. I had to jump in and offer my expertise to the indie community for book reviews.
Mostly, when I was working for presses, I just got the question a lot: “How do you get book reviews?” “How do you get certain types of book reviews?” So, big media, blogs, podcast interviews, customer reviews—I got all of these questions all the time. I wanted to create a resource for all of those authors.
I enjoy writing about it too. I've been writing book marketing blogs for years, and I always thought that was my best chance of making jokes. So I filled my book with jokes and as much experience and knowledge as I have, and put them all in one place.
You're going to get specific platforms to try pitching. You're going to have book review resources in my book. I just tried to gather all of the things in one place instead of authors and presses searching forever to figure out what works.
I tried to compress everything I know into one document, and now I've got it with The Truth About Book Reviews.
Joanna: It is super useful. We are going to come to the content of the book in a minute. Given that this was, I guess, your first self-publishing experience, how did that go?
Did you learn anything that made you understand why being an indie is difficult?
Joe: Oh, too many things.
First of all, the timeline. The hope I had for finishing a book in like three months definitely got sidetracked. With the amount of things I have to do for Independent Book Review and in my everyday life, three months was impossible.
Initially, I said, “Oh, this book's going to be out in January,” and here we are with a July 10th release date and I'm still sprinting. So that is difficult.
Also, I tried to upload my ebook for KDP pre-order about two weeks ago with a different subtitle, and they shut me down four or five different times before I had to change it. I even told my wife, “I'm not changing the subtitle. I like it too much. I'm not keyword farming or anything. I'm not cheating.”
My book is about books. The subtitle was originally “An Insider's Guide to Getting Book Reviews and Using Them to Market Your Book.” Pretty straightforward, I think. But you can't have “book” too many times in the title and subtitle.
I had it three times, so I cut one out. I said, “Getting Reviews and Using Them to Market Your Book,” and they didn't even like that. So I had to get rid of it. There are no “books” in the subtitle now, but at least it's up for pre-order.
Joanna: This is so interesting. With my very first book, I also put up something—this was in the early days when there was only really Amazon in terms of self-publishing. I had something like “From Idea to Amazon” as a subtitle, and they shut that down because, of course, I used their own company name, and I understood that.
The word “book” does seem a little extreme, especially when it's about book reviews. But this is the point, there are all of these things that are difficult to do.
So let's get into the content of the book. It is super useful. So authors do obviously talk about book reviews as if they're one thing, but they're not all one thing.
What are the different types of book reviews and where can they be used?
Joe: I separate them into three different types of reviews. I've seen other marketers separate them into four, but let's stick with three for now.
The first one in my timeline is blurbs or editorial reviews. Basically, those are like testimonials for your book.
You ask authors or experts in your niche to read an early copy of your book and provide a few sentences of praise for it so that you can use it on your marketing material. That could be putting it on your book cover.
For example, if you get a big notable name, you put J.F. Penn right on the front cover, and bam, that's helping other readers and browsers see that this could be a book for them.
You can also put it on your Amazon page itself in the editorial review section through Amazon Author Central, or you can do it with Amazon A+ content, which is graphics on your Amazon page. I love those. You can also use it on things like your website and on social media graphics.
One of my favorite things to do is to use it in future pitches. If I reach out to a different review platform and I have a blurb from a notable company who said this book was incredible and gave it a starred review, then that really works wonders for helping that recipient think maybe this book's quality has already been gate-kept in a way that indie authors aren't always.
It's a way for readers to see, “Okay, somebody read this book and somebody said it was good.” So those would be blurbs or editorial reviews.
The second type of review I consider media or trade reviews. Media reviews, to me, are any reviews in the media. I'm going to count social media because it has it in the name. I think as long as you're getting publicity for it, that is a media review. You can get it on social media. Podcasts aren't always necessarily a review, but it's media.
Then trade reviews are from trade review publications—publications that focus only on books, as opposed to bigger media like People that focuses on culture and fashion and all sorts of cool stuff in addition to books. You can use those in different ways too.
The first of which is publicity. Share that link with your audience. Then you can put it on your websites as well. Just like blurbs, you can pull a quote from your larger review and use it with newsletters, websites, and social media. You can also put it in distributor backends like PublishDrive or IngramSpark.
The third type of review is the most common and probably the most difficult: customer reviews on Amazon, Goodreads, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Kobo.
You're getting those reviews for your product page so every browser that comes sees that you have 150 reviews and can scroll through them to find out what everyday people are saying about it. So that is a totally different strategy than the strategy that you would use for media reviews.
Joanna: That is a great overview.
It's interesting because I've certainly always focused more on customer reviews than anything else because they help the algorithms, they help the social proof, and they help with advertising. It's very hard to advertise a book with no reviews.
The comments I get from authors now are, “Oh, well, it's all right for you. You've got X number of reviews.” And I'm like, “Yeah, we all start somewhere.” So if someone listening is like, “Okay, I need to get customer reviews on, say, Amazon or Goodreads,”—
What are some tips for getting those customer reviews for new authors with new books who might not have an ARC review team?
Joe: Everybody does start somewhere. It is difficult and time-consuming, most of all. So much in publishing is you're either paying for it with your dollars or your time, and with customer reviews, so much of it is your time.
My favorite way to get customer reviews is using comp titles. Even if you wrote the most unique book you've ever read, other people have written unique books. You should have been reading other books similar to yours while you were writing it or before, but you can check them out now on the bestseller pages on Amazon.
You can find books that are similar to yours, and then find out where those books have been reviewed. If you're looking for customer reviews, head over to their Amazon page and see if they've been published in the last 10 to 15 years.
You don't want to go too deep, and you probably don't want to pick books that have a thousand-plus reviews, but maybe in the 100 to 500 review range. You can scroll down to those customer reviews and check out if those reviewers have profiles.
If they have profiles, they might share public social media accounts or websites, and they like to be pitched for free reviews. So that's definitely one of the best ways that I've found to get new customer reviews.
You can also do the same thing with smaller blogs. Smaller blogs can turn into customer reviews pretty often.
If you search a book just like yours and you Google it or you ask ChatGPT to find where they've been reviewed and you pay attention to the lesser-known ones, then you can give yourself a pretty good shot of pitching for a customer review from those places. Asking for the blog review first and seeing if it can convert into a customer review.
Then there's also building a launch team. I know if you are just starting out, you might not have a big list of supporters who you know will be reading your book, but—
You can definitely still build a launch team with your personal connections.
Anybody who you've worked with in a writing workshop or something in the past—as long as they're not Facebook friends with you, so they shouldn't be really close people to you—you can build launch teams by recognizing who you've interacted with in the past and who might want to support you.
Ask them to read an early copy so that they can help out in that first week of publication. I did that with my newsletter a lot. I built a launch team through my newsletter by just creating a form for people to sign up and putting it in my automation sequence. I ended up getting 20-plus people to offer to review the book.
So there are options. They're all going to take time.
You can ask people inside the book itself with a link to review the book at the very end, right before the back matter.
You can also try paid resources. You can't pay for customer reviews, but you can pay places like Pubby, where you can read other indie author books and get your book reviewed in return. They work around it in that way.
Then you can try things like BookFunnel, StoryOrigin, and NetGalley. PubNook is another one like Pubby. There are options; it's just about time.
Joanna: This is so important.
You did say it there, but just to emphasize, you cannot offer something in exchange for a review. So when we're offering our book to people, we are saying, “Here's my book.” I always just say, “If you like it and would like to leave a review, I'd really appreciate that.”
Even with our ARC lists, we can't say, “Here's a free book in exchange for a review.”
It has to be somebody's free choice to do a review. And as you said, you can't pay someone to do a review. There are lots of these services, but that's not allowed. So as you say, there are ways around it, but we have to be clear.
If I send out an email to my review list, my ARC team, maybe one out of three, or sometimes one in two, will actually leave a review within the period. So even people who've signed up to say they will do a review… I guess what I'm saying is don't get annoyed with people if they don't.
Everyone has things on their to-do list, haven't they? So we do have to be careful about how we're asking for these things.
Joe: Yes, I said it multiple times in my book: really, don't get annoyed at these people. They're offering to read your book; that is the best part. So if they leave a review, that is super helpful, but if they disappear, that's okay too. Don't chase people and be annoyed. Do not chase them.
Joanna: These lovely book bloggers do all this stuff basically for the love of it, and they just get so many pitches. So, yes, it is one of those sort of frustrating areas, but also really important.
So let's say, like me, when I was a new author, I did make a lot more effort. There'll be authors listening who have an email list, they have a lot of books. The more backlist you have, the more difficult it is to try and tell people which book you need reviews on.
What can we do to get consistent reviews over years, especially on backlist books?
Because basically, you need to get reviews regularly in order to keep things sort of moving.
Joe: This is a good problem to have, really. But you do still have to stay on top of it even though you have less time to pitch one-on-one.
My favorite way, the easiest way, is to make sure that there's a page at the end of the book that includes an actual clickable link. What I like to do is create a redirection link before your book is available. My redirection link is independentbookreview.com/reviewlink. I just use that through WordPress.
Right now, the ebook is not published, so if I were to redirect that link to my ebook review page, it would just be dead. So right now, pre-publication, it's taking you to a Goodreads review page, which you can have beforehand.
Once the book gets published, you go over to the redirect, you change the link, and then you don't have to edit the ebook or anything. All the person has to do is click that link when the book is already out.
You should have changed it to the ebook review link, so you don't have to edit anything. It's just automatically clickable. So that's one of my favorite ways to do it, for sure. Then you don't have to do any work after that.
I also like automation sequences in emails. You can set up a special sign-up page for those who read your book. Let's say you have a specific link that you send them to in your bio or in the front matter.
They sign up via a specific form that separates them in your email company, and you can have a review request that automatically goes out to whoever signed up for that 30 days after, for example. You already know that these are the people who came from your book. I like automation sequences in emails, for sure.
And then, make it easy to find on your website. All you need is “Contact for review copies.” It's very simple. Have an email if you want, or a contact box. You can also have a Google Form or a Jotform for people to click and say, “I want to join my ARC team.”
They sign up, put their information in, and you will already have somebody to send it out to the next time your book comes out.
Joanna: I like those, good tips there. So let's come to the blurbs or the editorial reviews because this has very much been a sort of traditionally published thing. Indies have never really done this as much.
“Expecting authors, agents, and editors to secure blurbs can create an incestuous and unmeritocratic literary ecosystem that often rewards connections over talent.”
I thought that was interesting because it seems to suggest that there's a sort of move against these kinds of blurbs and editorial reviews. So what are your thoughts on when these are useful?
How can we get them in an authentic way rather than just always pitching famous names?
Joe: Yes, I love that article. Somebody said it finally. I feel like it's so true. Rewarding connections over talent—blurbs are connections.
Stephen King is one of the most prolific blurbers I know. I don't know if he reads all those books. I would love to ask him, but I just don't know. It's about putting their name on your marketing. If they get to put their name on your popular book cover, that's positive for them.
The thing is that most readers, I would say, don't really understand the connections part of it in the same way that literary inside-circle people do. I know this, other writers know this, authors know this, that some of these blurbs mean that maybe they share an agent with that author or have the same indie press.
But it's still about needing more content, and blurbs are content. You can't be the one who calls your book spectacular, so putting somebody else's name on there is beneficial.
Connections are good too. I'm a person who runs a book review site. If I see that somebody has a connection with someone as influential as Ta-Nehisi Coates and the book is in the niche, then it gets my brain going.
It's like, “Oh, maybe they were in the same writing program, maybe they have the same agent, maybe they were in a panel together.” Those are still beneficial. That means that that book could get good publicity, like Ta-Nehisi Coates's books get good publicity.
I like them. Bookstores and librarians still like them. I understand it from the Simon and Schuster side because their books are already getting into bookstores and libraries. They're succeeding there. We need as much help as we can get as indies, so I still like them.
Media and trade reviews can also be used as blurbs, so you don't necessarily have to have these crazy good connections. Although, of course, it's really helpful to have connections. All you need to do is get reviewed on these other platforms, and you can use them in that way.
In terms of getting them authentically, just having an actually marketable book and story, I think, is the most important. You have to have the recipient believe in that product before they endorse it.
Sometimes blurb writers don't read every word of every book, and so they want to be able to trust it just from the outset.
So you have to look at it and be like, “Okay, this doesn't include any problematic tropes in the description, or the cover isn't already bad.”
There are a lot of things that go into it, but make sure it's marketable right away, and then just be genuine in your pitch. And maybe read their books before you pitch them.
Joanna: I mean, this is what I was going to say. The worst thing is I get so many pitches all the time, and most of them are completely inappropriate.
They're just not targeted at me, either my non-fiction or my fiction, and that is the most frustrating thing.
It's better to send three proper emails to people who you know are a good fit than just scatter-gunning.
Joe: Absolutely. And we can tell too, when you say, “I've read your book” or “I read your website,” and then you use a generic example that is in every book, make sure it's so pointed.
If you're reaching out to a romance author and you've read one of their books, don't just say, “Oh, the love story was so sweet.” No. Say something like, “Timmy and Sarah in the locker room.” Be so specific.
Make sure that they see it and recognize, “Okay, they actually did read it, and I like that scene too.” So hit their feels a little bit by being really specific.
Joanna: Definitely. I think that's a really good tip.
It also has to be a good fit with the genre. Reading a book is not like listening to a song. This is not like a three-to-five-minute job. This is reading a book, which for most of us, we have so many books on our TBR list, that taking time out to read a book is significant.
The other thing I guess is the amount of time. I think one of the reasons traditional publishing is much better at this kind of thing is because they have such a long lead time. They might give people six months, whereas most indies are like, “Oh, it comes out next week.” So doing it a lot further in advance, I guess, would be another tip.
Joe: Yes, absolutely.
Joanna: Okay. So then what about influencers and other media? We don't have any connections with these people. Everybody wants a big-name TikToker to do a review on their book on their channel.
How can we research and pitch influencers?
Joe: I think first, you have to have a good platform. Not necessarily a big follower platform, although it would help, but make sure wherever you're pitching social media influencers, in particular, that your platform is actually good at curating the content.
If you think of it in terms of a collaboration, they want their stuff to get seen by your people too. So build up your people, make sure that the actual content is likable, lovable, unique, stands out, and is good, shareable content, first of all.
Then, if you are looking for Instagram in particular and you want to DM influencers, you're going to have to find a way to get them to follow you. I think that would be the biggest piece of it. So seek out not necessarily relationships, but engage with their stuff.
Make sure they see you in the comments. Make sure you are being genuine and trying to form connections rather than just pitching someone cold because if you pitch somebody cold who doesn't follow you on Instagram, you're going to get buried in their message requests. So definitely try to work with that first.
It's going to take a ton of time, but it's time that maybe, if you're on social media already, you are already spending there. So I think those things make a big difference over time.
Get started early. Don't just start a month before publication.
Even if you do start a month before publication, you can still make it work as long as you are forming a connection over time.
In terms of finding those people, you just have to spend time on your platforms. Whichever platform you think would be most beneficial to you, spend time on it. See who is being successful. Search your keywords, search your comp titles, search your categories, and let the TikTok algorithm start to show you more book stuff.
The only way to reach out to and find these people is to find them on those platforms first.
Joanna: So there's a whole load of people going, “This sounds like a ton of work. I don't want to be doing this. This is an absolute nightmare.” So what are the lines around paying for reviews? We mentioned that there are some ways around this.
I guess also tell us about Independent Book Review, because I think you have both options, don't you? So tell us about that.
How can we navigate paying for specific types of book reviews, and what are some good ways to do that, while avoiding the scams?
Joe: Yes. First, it is a time nightmare sometimes. I wrote this book to be the most helpful for authors to recognize what they're up against and where they should be putting their time, because realistically, there's just more time than you have to spend getting book reviews.
It's also about not putting too much pressure on yourself. Recognize how much work this is, but don't take shortcuts by trying to pay for customer reviews. You cannot do it. You don't want your account banned; you don't want the other people's accounts banned. So make sure you put a full stop there.
Don't try to get around it by getting Facebook friends or the person who lives in your house to write a review for you. Skip out on all that.
But you can pay for other review services. You can pay people to do research for you. I already mentioned how many minutes you can spend just on Amazon pages trying to find customer reviewers, and if you don't have that much time because you have to write your next book, you can pay people to do it.
You can find marketers or assistants on Reedsy, which is a good source. Fiverr can have some good assistants as long as you do your vetting. Then you can use services like Pubby, which I still like a lot, because you get to read and help other indie authors and help yourself in the process.
For editorial reviews, which are blurbs that you use in your marketing material from authors, experts, and review companies, you can pay for those.
You can one hundred percent pay for publicity.
When you pay for an editorial review by a book review company like mine, you are making sure your book is read, assessed, and given an honest review by experts—the book reviewers.
You are making sure a reader puts your book on the top of their list, and you'll end up with a 400-word or more book review from Independent Book Review. It includes a summary and, if applicable, praise and criticism. So it really depends on how they like your book.
The only thing is, you don't want to pay for too many editorial reviews. You shouldn't pay every book review company you come across because you're going to lose a lot of money that way. It can go from $100 to $500 to $600. So make sure you recognize your budget beforehand.
If you feel like you're spending too much time pitching—if you are pitching too many media and trade reviews and not getting any of them, or only getting one, and you really want to have blurbs by launch day—you can pay companies like mine to give you a chance for a couple of sentences of a blurb. It can help.
I think that you should probably have three to five editorial reviews on your Amazon page before publication, but every author is different, every publisher is different. Although I do think having that validity helps.
Joanna: It can also help your confidence. You mentioned NetGalley before. I think a lot of indie authors have a difficult time with NetGalley because it is so dominated by traditionally published books.
Again, it's not necessarily the quality, but the reviewers themselves sometimes have a bit of an attitude towards indie books. So I would say that NetGalley can be quite difficult and that it is potentially a better idea, as you say, to focus on other types of reviews.
One thing we do need to cover is, everybody wants reviews, but what if they are one-star or two-star, or even three-star reviews? Obviously, we would love everything to be a five-star or a four-star review. So how do we handle bad reviews?
How do we handle negative reviews in general, whether it is an editorial review or a customer review?
Joe: Yes. First of all, breathe.
For customer reviews in particular, these people are not experts. They're not editors. Well, I mean, they're experts in that they read all the time and provide critical analysis of books, but they're not here trying to improve your book.
They're speaking to other readers, and they have personal reading experiences. That means that they could be coming at it with bias, with prejudices, with incorrect information.
My favorite way for dealing with negative customer reviews is to just get so many of them that the numbers don't affect you. Keep chasing them. If you have five negative reviews out of 20, get to 50.
If you took your time with that content, if you really worked hard on it and you don't even agree with these customers, then the numbers will even out. The more people you get, the more it evens out. So keep working. Don't stop.
If you feel like the customer review is abusive or it's about a product that's not even yours—so they're reviewing a TV instead of your book—you can hit “report abuse” under an Amazon customer review. They might not necessarily take it down, but you can try.
Don't respond to them, for sure, no matter where they are—Amazon, Goodreads, or if you had emailed them asking for a review in the past.
With media and trade reviews, if they are negative or mixed, I get a lot of people who are nervous about publishing it on my website if it is a mixed or critical review. I recommend publishing it anyway. I think it's helpful to be Googleable.
It's helpful because not every reader that makes it to my site reads every word of every review. Sometimes they scan. It's easier to scan with your eyes than it is to read every word on a digital screen.
So they might not even read the negative part, or if they do read the criticism, maybe they don't agree with it and just decide to read the book anyway. It's just more content for your readers and your audience to engage with.
If there's a negative review, try to take your emotions and yourself out of it for a little bit. It's impossible, I can say it all I want, but try. These are not meant to tell you you're doing something wrong. They're meant to speak to other readers. That's it.
You can definitely think about them, but don't beat yourself up about them. Keep chasing good reviews. Keep working.
Joanna: I also, same as you, consider that you should just drown it by getting more reviews.
Joe: Yes.
Joanna: Say you get 50 reviews and they're all one-star, then there is something wrong. Either there's probably something wrong with the book, or you've really put it in the wrong place.
So let's say you've put up a book under “Christian Sweet Romance” and it's full of hardcore violence and swearing and all kinds of other things, then you've made a mistake in terms of positioning your book.
So if you've positioned it well and it is a good product, then, like you say, you will get some one-star reviews, but you should mainly get alright reviews, I guess.
Joe: Yes, and indie authors sometimes can run into a problem where they haven't gotten feedback before publishing. It is just so important to actually hear criticism before you get going. Reviews are not the time to get your criticism, even though it does happen.
Sometimes criticism can be actually helpful to learn if you did something wrong. You can fix it with this book if you wanted to edit it again, or you can just fix it in your next one.
Reviews are informative. They're about your author journey, about how you are presenting your book, if you're putting it in the right categories. Listen to them. It's important.
Joanna: That's interesting you say that because I've always paid for professional editing, so I've always had feedback and critical feedback before publishing. But you are right, there are a lot of people who don't do that anymore.
So that would be, I guess, another tip. I still believe in professional editors. I think it's really important to keep improving our craft, but also for that very reason, as you said, it's better to have other eyes on your book before publishing.
Now, all of that has been super useful. And of course, you do have various things at Independent Book Review—
Tell us a bit more about Independent Book Review?
Joe: First and foremost, IndependentBookReview.com is a site for readers. So if you're looking for cool indie books, that's what I tried to do. I tried to put together book lists, starred reviews, the best in indie publishing. So definitely start reading indie books and come to IndependentBookReview.com for it.
But then for writers also, you can submit your book for free if you'd like. You can buy an editorial review and guarantee it in a certain amount of time. Or you can get group beta reading, which we also offer.
Basically, I have a team of booksellers, librarians, reviewers, and bloggers who will read your book before publication and share what they consider to be the most important takeaways from a reader's standpoint, not necessarily from an editor's standpoint. So you can get group beta reading with us too.
My book will be available through there too. Not direct fulfillment, but if you want to go to independentbookreview.com/thetruth, you can just go ahead and find it there.
I also run the Write Indie newsletter, which you'll find on my website too. Really, just go to IndependentBookReview.com, you'll figure it out.
Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Joe. That was great.
Joe: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It means a ton.
Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson
Jul 07, 2025
Have you ever dreamed of turning a passion for storytelling into a profitable, long-term career? How do you build multiple successful author brands without burning out? What marketing strategies actually work in today's fast-changing industry? Ines Johnson shares her journey and the secrets to her success.
In the intro, 5 phases of an author business [Becca Syme]; Lessons from writing every day for two decades [Ryan Holiday]; What the First AI Copyright Ruling Means for Authors [ALLi Podcast];
Write and format stunning books with Atticus. Create professional print books and eBooks easily with the all-in-one book writing software. Try it out at Atticus.io
Ines Johnson is a romance author with over a hundred books spanning paranormal, urban fantasy, contemporary, and erotica, as well as sweet romance under another pen name.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
From funk band upbringing to TV, teaching and writing
Writing faster as a trained screenwriter
Staying within your lane — depending on your goals
The business of writing, and planning income and progress
AIDA for marketing — Attention, Interest, Desire, Action
Joanna: Ines Johnson is a romance author with over a hundred books spanning paranormal, urban fantasy, contemporary, and erotica, as well as sweet romance under another pen name. Welcome to the show, Ines.
Ines: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me.
Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. First up—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.
Ines: I grew up in a funk band; that's always my truth. My father was the bass player, and one of my formative memories was of him explaining music composition to me.
He explained how the keyboard had its part and would tell a story, the drums had a part and would tell a story, and then finally the vocalists came on and they told a different story.
He showed me how all of these worked together to make the story complete, to be the characters. It was from that moment I knew I was supposed to be in storytelling. I thought I was going to be a singer, but my daddy said, “Oh, sweetie, no, you're not going to be a singer.”
So I started first in television, and then I found my way into novel writing. I worked in cable television for a number of years for National Geographic Television, on the Explorer show, which was before they had a channel. I loved that; we met so many fascinating people from all around the world.
Then I started to work in children's television. While I was working in children's television, I was also an avid reader, which I have been since I was very young.
There are pictures of my youngest aunt corralling me and my cousins off the city bus and into the library. Going to the library and being able to take books home was the best thing ever.
But my godmother, who lived a few blocks up the street, had a pantry where you’re supposed to keep boxes of pasta and cans of beans. She didn't have that. Instead, she had all these teeny tiny little Harlequins and Silhouettes; that was my second library.
She said I could take and read whatever I wanted, and I did. She didn't try to censor me because, back then, the love scene was when the waves would crash!
I read those books and it became an absolute addiction for me, and it stayed with me even when I was working in television. When I went on to work in children's television, I was reading Twilight in between reading scripts for the show.
The writing bug bit me. I would be writing screenplays in Final Draft, then switch over to Word or eventually Scrivener and work on a novel. It took me years for that first novel to be recognizable as a piece of literature. It has not seen the light of day, but that was fine.
After the first one, I wrote the next one in a year, the next in six months, the next in three months, and now I'm a whole lot faster than that. But I always like to preface my “speed” with the fact that I'm a trained screenwriter. We would do 13 scripts per season, two seasons per year. That's a normal pace for me.
My brain doesn't think it's supposed to take a year or more to write a novel. No, you need to have this full script, this part of the story, done in the time you have.
Joanna: That is really interesting. I think people who come from screenwriting or journalism are fast writers because they're used to deadlines. It’s a job, you do the work, and there are the words. I get that.
When did you first decide to self-publish?
Ines: I first self-published in December 2014. I published a three-part serial, as it was really popular to do serial books back then. It was the era of KU 1.0, where you got paid the same no matter how long or short the book was.
That worked for me because that's how my mind is; I don't think in terms of a feature film, I think in episodes. So I started to write these shorter stories, and they did well, and then I just wrote more and more.
At the time, I only wrote romance, but I didn't understand genres or tropes. I started writing a dystopian, then a sci-fi, then a paranormal. I was going all over the place, and each time I was building a new audience that wouldn't follow to the next genre.
The people that read the dystopian were not interested in the contemporary, and so on. It didn't make sense to me until other authors pulled me up by my bootstraps and said, “Girlfriend, let me give you some advice.”
That's the beautiful thing about the romance author community. They told me,
“It's fantastic that you keep finding an audience, but you want to try to retain them. One of the ways to do that is to pick a lane and stay in it.”
I was crisscrossing too many lanes on the highway to keep my readers.
That's when I decided pen names were for me because I didn't want to limit myself, so I just made more than one.
Joanna: I know that people don't cross over and it's so weird, isn't it? Because I think many writers, myself included, read so many different genres. So I don't really understand people who only read one.
How have the pen names worked for you and how do you keep multiple names going?
Ines: For the folks that are listening, I think the vast majority of readers probably read a handful of books a year. Indies aren't focused on the masses like that. We're very focused on the ‘whale readers,' the ones that read a book a day. I'm a whale reader; I read one to two books a day.
A lot of these whale readers are often mood readers, so you don't necessarily have to pick a lane and stay in it forever. For a period of time, they may only want one specific thing. Right now, I'm in a contemporary mood. Next week I'll be in a historical mood, and after that, I might be in a sci-fi mood.
However, if you want a faster route to profitability, picking a lane is a strategy that works. It's just a strategy, and it's a strategy that works if you're looking at profitability.
If you are an artist, then you don't have to listen to this advice. You have to determine what you want out of your career, and that's the lane you need to pick.
If your goal requires you to be a very focused genre writer, then you do that.
If you are a different kind of writer and you want to write across various spectrums, you just need to set your goals accordingly.
Find the right readers, and then stay on your beautiful highway.
Joanna: Apart from focus, what are the other mistakes that either you've made yourself or that you see others make?
Ines: The main mistake I see… well, one person's mistake can be another person's boon. I feel that if you understand who you are, what you want, and what your goals are, you make fewer mistakes. They just become opportunities.
For me, you are not going to see me talking about politics in my books. I'm trying to escape it as much as I possibly can. But I see other authors who embrace it wholeheartedly, and the readers love them for it.
I see authors who post very personal things on social media. I am not that girl. I keep a lot of things close to my chest. You'll feel like you know me, but you couldn't tell a lot of actual facts about me after a conversation.
I don't suffer from that because I know what my limits are. For other authors, that’s a mistake for them because they go too far. I really think it becomes about understanding who you are and what you want because this industry changes so fast you will get whiplash.
The thing that stays the same is you, your goals, and why you're doing this. If you can keep that close to your chest, any potential mistake becomes an opportunity that you can really see and dig deep into to make the best of it.
Joanna: You mentioned you started in KU, but now you are selling direct as well as publishing wide. A lot of people think all romance authors are just KU authors.
Tell us about selling direct and wide.
Ines: I started in KU because I didn't understand how to upload to the other retailers. Eventually, I learned, but I'm always looking at my goals, and my pen names have different goals.
My Ines Johnson pen name mostly writes paranormal and fantasy. My Shanae Johnson pen name is the queen of wholesome romance. She sticks to her lane. Those are my two main pen names.
Shanae can be wide because if you look on Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, or Google Play, you can see genres like contemporary western, military, and small-town romance. Those are universal.
Genres like paranormal romance, paranormal women's fiction, and reverse harem were born on Amazon. Those specific categories were born there.
So I'm always watching not only what the industry is doing but what the readers are doing and where they are.
Shanae could go into KU with her clean and wholesome romance, but why, when there are readers everywhere? Ines could come out of KU, but why, when the readers for her genres are concentrated right there?
And yes, I am selling direct.
I sell more print books direct than I do on Amazon, and the margins are better for me there.
When you're selling direct, you have to think about how you are different.
Amazon can't do everything. Amazon can't sell you the ebook, the audiobook, the print book, a special edition, and a swag pack all in one bundle.
For one Kickstarter I did for a spicy romance, I sold the ebook, the print book, and the audiobook. I also sold a webinar. Inside the book, there were some spicy scenes that dealt with rope play, so I got an expert to come on and give my readers a special demonstration, and they all got some rope. You can't do that on Amazon.
You can give a completely different experience. You can have tea parties. You can build a book box with all kinds of amazing goodies. A friend of mine who's really crafty made objects for her readers to go with the book. You can't do that on Amazon.
Direct is an experience. It's about bundles and creating an experience you can give your readers.
Joanna: You’ve got a Kickstarter campaign coming for Page Turner Planning.
Tell us about that and any tips for people who want to run a Kickstarter.
Ines: You really have to know yourself, your why, and your lane.
My number one strength on the CliftonStrengths chart is discipline. I like doing the same thing over and over again. My number two strength is achiever. I have to achieve; I have to evolve; I have to win something new. For the longest time, those two just clashed.
I'm a planner. Every day I get up—and I have a number of journals—every day, I get up and I record my data. It costs me about $2,500 to $3,000 a month to cover my living expenses, which is about $80 a day.
So I sit down in my little journal and I go through and check the dashboards to see how much I've earned, and I write the numbers down. I'm not just writing it down from Amazon because I'm wide, so I write all the numbers down.
I don't put it in a spreadsheet; I just write them down, and that calms my mind. It reminds me, “Yes, you can do this self-employed thing. You can do this small business thing. You are fine. You have made the money to cover your expenses. You're good. Now, go have fun.” And that's where my muse starts to write the book.
When I'm on retreats, people look over my shoulder and ask me about my planners. I record my word count, what's going on in the story… I have tons of different journals for all this information. It's really anti-anxiety for me.
Two years ago, I started a little mastermind where I was showing people how to write with pacing, how I marketed, and all the prep work I did before the book was even out—how I set up my Instagram, my website, my newsletter.
I also knew I needed to go to the bank and get a DBA, which became an LLC, then maybe an S Corp. Because I have a couple of degrees in education, I figured out how to deliver the information in a logical sequence.
I would talk to them once a week about what they should be thinking about in their writing, their business, their branding, and their marketing.
As I was supposed to be writing Page Retention, the second book in my Page Turner series, I looked back at all this content from the mastermind—more than 52 weeks' worth—and said, “This is a book.”
I turned that two-year-long experiment of helping people write their book, build their business, and market themselves into a planner. And that's Page Turner Planning.
Joanna: That's really useful.
How does a Kickstarter work? Why is the pre-launch page so important?
Ines: Kickstarter says you're going to pull some people from your audience, but you're going to pull a lot of new people to you. These new people don't know you, so you have to introduce yourself and build trust.
I'm asking you for money for something that came from my brain. In this instance, it's a product that will benefit you, but you don't know me. I could be making all this stuff up.
So the pre-launch page is to give you sneak peeks and to build trust. Once you have those things, people are more likely to come on board and give you a try.
Joanna: What other things did you learn from your past Kickstarters that might help other people?
Ines: The first thing is fear. I was terrified to run my first Kickstarter. We're both introverts who probably like to sit in our houses and write our books. I don't like to put my business out there, but when you do something like Kickstarter, you're putting your business out there for everyone to see, whether it succeeds or fails.
My very first Kickstarter was with my sweet pen name, Shanae Johnson, who has a huge audience. I got 30 backers. I limped my way to funding that Kickstarter and was all kinds of confused. I was very hesitant to do a second one. I had to do a lot of mindset work before I did the Page Turner Pacing Kickstarter.
The best thing I did was talking about it before it launched. These people didn't know me. I had to show them that I knew what I was talking about first. Once people saw that and I was giving them free tidbits to try, that's what worked.
Having tiers where they could just try something out and see… over 700 people backed that Kickstarter, Joanna. I'm still breathless over it. I had to have a moment to convince them, or maybe I convinced their friends, that I know what I'm talking about and that I'm really here to help.
Joanna: In terms of book marketing, what have you kept doing since 2014, and what have you changed?
Ines: I get these bursts of energy where I figure something out and I just want to tell everybody, because I truly want us all to win. So when you see me showing up on Instagram or TikTok, it's because I figured something out and I want to show everybody. But then once I've told you, I go away.
I'm always writing. You will not find me without a piece of paper and a pen. So things like Substack really work for me because I have so much to write about on the nonfiction side.
In terms of marketing —
My number one piece of marketing advice is to find one new reader every single day.
I might find them using an AMS ad, a Facebook ad, an Instagram post, or at a book signing. Every day, I'm looking for just one new reader.
To distill what I learned in television, we used a formula called AIDA: Attention, Interest, Desire, and Action. That's really what marketing is to me.
How are you going to get people's attention?
You could use a startling statement, music, or color theory. We learned so much psychology on how to keep you in your seat.
Then, interest starts the storytelling bit of your advertising. Then you play on people's desires—we mostly deal with emotional desires. And finally, you have to tell them to act with a call to action. That's what marketing boils down to, whether you're on TikTok, Instagram, or hand-selling in person.
Joanna: What has stayed the same? I still have an email list, which has been the core.
Do you think Substack has replaced email marketing for you?
Ines: My Substack is purely nonfiction, but I email my fiction list every week.
The thing that has stayed the same for me is consistency. I consistently publish. I'm consistently telling stories. I'm consistently talking to my audience.
I don't stop. I'm consistently promoting.
Things in this industry change, but the part of you that doesn't change is your goal to succeed. You just have to change how you're going to succeed based upon what is moving and shaking in the industry. It's that consistency and just showing up and using AIDA.
Joanna: How much is paid advertising a part of your marketing strategy?
Ines: It's very much a part of my marketing strategy. I am always looking for where the readers are. If you tell me I can go on Facebook, where there are a lot of readers who read the books I write, and all I have to do is pay some money to talk to them, I'm going to pay. How else am I going to find them? It gets harder.
I'm thankful for paid advertising. Yes, I'm going to do social media. Yes, I'm going to do paid cost-per-click marketing. Yes, I'm going to do paid newsletters. Yes, I'm going to purchase a table at a signing event because guess who's there? The readers.
My dad always says it takes money to make money, so I came into this business knowing that I was going to have to spend. I have my thresholds and I know when it's not worth it, but I don't think we can expect to come into a business and just start making money for free.
Joanna: You've been doing this for over a decade and have seen people leave the industry.
Why are you still here and still so upbeat?
Ines: I'm unemployable, Joanna!
But it really goes back to my dad and that lesson I learned about how story works. I feel that's why I succeeded: because I understand how story works at a granular level. That's what I try to tell people.
It's because I studied the art form that I so love, and I never stop studying. I feel like every book I write is me practicing a new lesson. What am I going to study today?
Maybe I watched a television show and they did something with an unreliable narrator, and I think, “I want to try that.” I will break that down, looking for the structure, the way that I was taught to look in screenwriting, and then I will write that book.
I think I'm still here because I understood structure and I'm a consistent, permanent student of the structure of story.
Also business. I came from corporate television—National Geographic, Discovery Channel—so I always understood that I will not be a success unless I find the audience and get my product in front of them.
Joanna: Let's come back to romance. It still feels like there's some kind of stigma in the mainstream.
What do you say to authors who love romance but are scared of writing it because of what people might say?
Ines: Joanna, this is when my feral Gen X is about to come out. Seriously, if you are afraid, I don't think you should do it.
If you don't believe in “feel the fear and do it anyway,” then don't do it. Do something else, because the romance readers will smell it on you. We are also feral creatures.
I so often forget that there is a stigma outside of Romancelandia because the party inside is so loud, it's on and popping, and we're all cheering each other on. We don't come outside a lot, and when we do, we're like, “Why are you guys out here? Come inside, it's great in here!”
So, if you are not in the Romancelandia community, get yourself there. But if, after you see what it’s like, you're still scared, don't do it. That's fine. You do not have to write romance. You can write something with a romantic element, and that might do better for you.
Joanna: If someone wants to come inside Romancelandia, how do they do that?
Ines: If you have a romance bookstore in your area, go. I just did my first trip to The Ripped Bodice in New York, and when I walked in those doors, I was like, “Oh, I'm home.” That's what it feels like.
Go to the romance section of your library; you'll find a friend. Go to the romance section of your bookstore; trust me, you will find a friend. I don't know what it is about the people in this world, but as soon as we see you next to us and you pick up a book, we have something to say! “Girl, not that one. You need to read this one instead!”
If that's not enough, or if you don't have a bookstore with a romance section, look up romance conferences. Look up Romance Writers of America; even though they've struggled, there are still pockets of groups and chapters that have broken off that want to talk to you and will welcome you inside.
I really feel like it's like when you get a new car and all of a sudden you see your car everywhere on the road. If you speak romance into the world and say you want a romance book sister, she will find you.
Joanna: We are out of time.
Where can people find you and your books and your Kickstarter online?
Ines: If you are an author, you'll want to go and read my Substack. I've got tons of content there, so go to ineswrites.substack.com.
If you want to read any of my books, you can go to ineswrites.com for the paranormal and fantasy—all spicy, so gird your loins! If you want to read something clean and wholesome that you can share with your mom or your auntie, then you'll go to shanaejohnson.com.
The Kickstarter should be findable on Substack or my site, but the direct link is ineswrites.com/kickstarter for the Page Turner Planning campaign.
Joanna: Thank you so much for your time, Ines. That was great.
Writing For Audio First With Jules Horne
Jun 30, 2025
How is the rise of AI changing the world of audiobooks for authors and narrators? Can a synthetic voice ever capture the nuance of human performance, and what does it mean to write for the ear, not just the eye? Jules Horne talks about the seismic shifts in the audiobook industry and how you can adapt your writing process for an audio-first world.
Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.
Jules Horne is a Scottish playwright, radio dramatist, poet, and fiction writer. She also writes nonfiction for authors, including the very useful Writing for Audiobooks.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
The biggest industry shifts in audio, including the move to subscription models like Spotify and the impact of AI narration.
An honest assessment of the quality of AI voices—what are the ‘tells' and how quickly are they improving?
Practical tips for adapting your nonfiction book for audio, from handling visuals and numbers to structuring for listener retention.
How to write fiction with an “audio-first” mindset, focusing on sentence length, dialogue tags, and the rhythm of your prose.
The potential for hybrid and multicast productions using a mix of human and AI voices.
Marketing and selling your audiobooks, including direct sales vs. platform exclusives.
Joanna: Jules Horne is a Scottish playwright, radio dramatist, poet, and fiction writer. She also writes nonfiction for authors, including the very useful Writing for Audiobooks. Welcome back to the show, Jules.
Jules: Hello, Joanna. Thanks very much for having me. It's great to be here.
Joanna: It's great to have you back. It was 2019 when you were last on the show. So first up—
Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and aspects of audio and performance.
Jules: Audio was never really a big thing in my life, but I did start writing very small and did a bit of, I guess, very junior theatre. When I studied literature at university, I got totally put off because it was so daunting.
I got into playwriting when a theatre company came to our local area and offered engagement workshops. That eventually led to some writing commissions. I ended up writing some stage plays and a few BBC radio dramas, which was really lovely to do.
I also worked in radio news writing and presenting for a while, so I did a bit of recording voice and writing for voice. I did a lot of presenting, so you kind of got a real feel for the flow of audio.
I loved editing different people's voices; that was really fun, and the techie side. I think that led to an interest in audio first and also a real feel for voices in general and editing. It's been a long-term interest of mine.
Joanna: As I mentioned, you were on the show in 2019 when we talked about writing for audiobooks, and you've updated the book since then. I wanted to come back to it because things have really changed over the last five and a half years.
What are some of the biggest industry shifts in terms of audiobook growth, publishing, subscription platforms, and technology changes?
Jules: It's been astonishing; it's just been extraordinary what's happened in the last few years. We thought it was fast then, but what's happened very recently has just been whoosh.
For many years, Audible and ACX were the dominant distribution platforms, with such a monopoly. All that time, audiobooks have been growing really, really strongly as a publishing niche with high growth and new markets taking off. It's still really going strong.
I think one of the big things that's changed is it has moved from one-off purchases to subscription models, similar to Netflix or Prime for TV and films. That's been for a good few years now.
Then Spotify launched its audiobook tier in 2023, which was a bit of a game changer. It puts audiobooks alongside music and podcasts, and it really widens the audience.
Of course, that comes along with some worries for authors because Spotify hasn't been great for musicians, with tiny royalties there. So, time will tell how that plays out.
Then of course, there's AI, which is affecting every kind of sector. It has been expected for a while that Amazon would open the gates to AI voices, and now that's happened. You can very simply upload your ebook as usual and then add an audiobook with virtual voices.
That's bound to have a major impact on publishing and, of course, on livelihoods for audiobook narrators and actors. So, that's a huge development in this last while.
Joanna: Any technological change has a lot of benefits and a lot of downsides. You mentioned Spotify and the worries over potential royalties, but from my personal perspective, I often think about these places as, yes, some income, but also marketing and reaching a much wider audience.
As a listener myself, I moved over to Spotify for podcast and music listening years ago, and then I moved my audiobook listening over. Now I wouldn't go back because I listen quite differently and use the Spotify search engine and their algorithm.
It's like we are meeting listeners where they are.
Yes, there are some good things and some bad things, but you can't stop the change.
Jules: Absolutely. I think the widening of listenership and different people suddenly being introduced to your books in ways they wouldn't have before is huge for authors. So, yes, definitely one to consider.
Joanna: We're in a time where a lot of people say, “For some reason, I don't read,” as if that's something to be proud of. But a lot of people do listen. A lot of people listen in the car, when they're exercising, or whatever they're doing. I listen when I'm out walking.
I think having our books in audio is so important, and yet it has been very expensive, hasn't it?
So again, the trade-off is that for a lot of authors, it's not human or AI; it's AI or nothing because they couldn't have afforded it.
Jules: That's right, and I think the thing with reading is really interesting too because more and more people are recognizing listening as a form of reading. The attitude to it being “just listening” is changing as well. People are imbibing books in different ways now.
The cost of AI is really approachable, and if that's the only option, then that's one that authors will definitely be considering. Particularly with KDP, where they've made it such an integral part of the overall indie publishing experience.
They've made it really simple to just upload, continue, and then you can preview some voices and try it out. You can try it out with different voices. It is quite extraordinary, and I think a lot of authors will probably choose that route.
Joanna: Just to timestamp this interview, we're in the middle of June 2025. Just last week, I got an email from ACX with a survey. It included a whole load of questions around what I might want from AI voices.
It feels like even though the virtual voice is through the KDP dashboard and is quite simple, there might be something else on the horizon. Did you get that or what do you think?
Jules: I didn't get that one. What were the questions? That's really curious.
Joanna: They were things like, “Here's a list of things that you might be interested in. Rate them in order of what you want.” And one of them would have been a lot more control of the text and the audio quality and sales platforms, like how to do much more marketing of things.
It was really interesting because I was like, “Oh, this seems very, very positive for the future.”
Jules: Yeah, that's a really interesting one too, because the marketing side with ACX and Audible has been really difficult for authors, hasn't it? You can't really, unless you're a vendor on Amazon, advertise your books, and you can't price them. These kinds of things.
So I wonder if that's maybe in the offering too. That would be great.
Joanna: People seem to criticize the AI voices, for example, and say, “Oh, well they're not very good.” And it's like, well, they're a lot better than they were six months ago, and in six months' time, they're going to be even better.
I wanted to ask you about this because you are very experienced in all this different voice stuff, different elements of human voice performance. So I think your ear is probably very attuned.
Honestly, what do you think about some of the quality of these AI-narrated voices?
Jules: I think the quality's changing super fast. What maybe sounds a bit monotonous now—and I think that's the main quality that AI voices tend to have now—I think that's going to change really fast.
When you hear some of the higher-end products in that space, like ElevenLabs, you realize the way things are evolving. It is quite astounding.
At the moment, there are very clear tells, and I think most people will be able to pick those up. Although, having said that, like in film imagery, it's starting to get quite blurred as to whether you can tell or not.
I did test my partner on a couple of examples: “Is this an AI or is this not an AI?” And what's really astounding is sometimes he thought a human voice was an AI.
Joanna: Mm-hmm.
Jules: Which is kind of, “Oh heck.” And that's happening with photos and with films too. You remember that thing about food photography where people were saying the AI food photography looks much more appetizing and realistic. Where's that heading?
Technically, it's often things like the emphasis on the wrong syllable. I hear a lot of downward inflections. If you listen to the KDP examples, you hear this: “Once upon a time, there was a…” The rhythm and the pitch go down in quite a regular way, and over time that can get almost sleepy.
People often have much more variation; they go up at the ends of sentences and they go down. A lot of the AIs are kind of going down at the end. I'm hearing that a lot, and that might be somebody's natural inflection, but I think it's quite a pattern when you listen to the voice samples in KDP.
The other thing I notice as tells, but you have to listen blooming hard to hear these and really be on the alert for them, is emphasis on the wrong syllable. One I heard was like, “salt pans” rather than “salt pans,” or “hot to the touch” rather than “hot to the touch.” It might just slightly misplace the emphasis in a phrase.
I listened to your book; I think your voice clone is absolutely amazing.
Joanna: That's a higher-end ElevenLabs voice clone.
Jules: Yes, and it sounds absolutely uncanny. Your voice timbre and the inflections in your voice are just amazing. All I could hear very occasionally was a slight misemphasis of something like “salt pans” rather than “salt pans.” It was that kind of thing, but that was the tell for me. Otherwise, I don't think I'd have known.
Joanna: It is interesting. Coming back to what your husband thought, I sometimes listen to a sample of someone, an author reading their own work, and think, “Oh, I quite like his voice.”
Then after maybe half an hour, I'm like, “I can't listen to this anymore.” So I feel like the level of judgment we have for human narration is also pretty similar.
As you mentioned, the wrong emphasis. I listened and directed almost every single line of that book, Death Valley, and we worked really hard. It's very interesting because if I had narrated that myself as a human, I might have used the same emphasis and you would've thought that was different.
When we are proof-listening to humans, these things come up, don't they? There are always things you might disagree with in terms of the way things are said.
Jules: Absolutely, and there are natural inflections in certain kinds of accents which might be indistinguishable from the way that an AI would say it. It might have a downward pattern, or that thing in lots of British English now where people have that rising inflection at the end.
I as a speaker of Scots wouldn't know whether an accent which is from South Carolina or something is authentic or not. I think if you're at a distance from the accent that the book is read in, you probably couldn't tell.
Some of the Scottish accents, for example, because I'm really close to it, I'm finding, “Ooh, that doesn't sound very authentic.” But with a lot of American accents, I really wouldn't know where it was from or whether it was authentic or not.
I think conversely, that would happen for them with British accents. So it's all about context. Often I've heard that if people are primed that it's AI, then they listen in a different way than if they don't know. So I think the blur is just something that's going to get more and more blurry.
Joanna: I agree, and as you say, I label everything so people will know whether it's human me or voice clone me. I also feel like people have different expectations of what they want from audio.
You mentioned the BBC radio dramas you've been involved with. Now, the expectation there is an incredibly high-quality human production, possibly with famous actors.
Compare that to me out for a walk listening to a nonfiction book on Spotify near a busy road. I have a completely different expectation of the content and the production than for a BBC radio drama.
There are different levels, aren't there?
Jules: Yes, you're listening in different ways and for different reasons, and there are different genres. You might be listening for information or for entertainment, and these things will change how you listen.
A lot of audiobooks narrated by AI are more towards nonfiction, which seems to me a sensible use when people are listening for information. Why does it have to be a very highly performed, highly characterized kind of voice?
Whereas if you've got a novel with lively characterization, you want to hear that spoken in a particular way. If it leaps off the page, you want it to leap off in the audio experience as well. So I think they're very different contexts.
Joanna: Again, with a radio drama, there's the multicast production, maybe with sound effects. This is something that for indie authors has been almost entirely impossible because of the expense and the technical skill you need to edit a multicast radio drama.
What are your thoughts on multi-voice with AI? Is that going to make it more accessible to people?
Jules: I think it's open to experiment and to people trying these things out because these are new possibilities that are coming in.
I really am interested in what that might mean for radio drama because that definitely means huge implications for actor jobs, which is a massive concern. In film, you're seeing people using avatars and artificial sets. It's really quite seismic throughout the creative industries.
For indie authors, it is an opportunity to try some things out. I don't know whether many people have yet tried that multi-voice with AI voices, but things like the voice changer are quite transformative. It's really fun to actually try that out.
With that, you get the expressiveness and the inflections of your own emotion put across, so the spacing and the intensity are in there, but you can change the timbre and the voice quality. That's really interesting.
I wonder if indie authors, and indeed producers in the radio drama sphere, might be starting to experiment with that kind of thing because it certainly gives you the option of a massive cast, which you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
In film, you've got CGI, and in some ways, people have been able to build crowd scenes that they wouldn't have had the budget to do. What are the options then in the sound world? It's a really interesting time.
Joanna: I can see, for example, maybe you keep the big-name actors because they're the ones on the headlines, but then there might be 20 other voices in the production. Perhaps somebody would've just narrated a couple of lines, like the police person coming to the door.
I think at the moment it's “this whole book is AI narrated” or “this whole book is human,” but I can see a sort of hybrid approach with multicast-type production.
Jules: I can, but actually I think it'd be a real pain to edit. With an actor's versatility and different performance skills, I think there's a bit of a difference for me between a trained actor with massive performance skills, which are just brilliant to hear, and someone who's maybe got a beautiful voice but hasn't got the performance background for a novel.
I think I'd be looking for that in a narrator every time. I just think they'll do a superb job of that, and part of the interest for the listener is also hearing your Stephen Frys or actors who have got that kind of really engaging versatility and a lovely voice.
I just think that's a more immersive and compelling experience for me. I don't think it'll ever quite go there, and I think actors will actually do it more effectively. It's just that it does cost a lot more.
Then your editing costs, your production cost, I think would be quite high doing multi-voice with short-fire dialogue. I think that would be quite epic to achieve.
Joanna: But again, that might be now. There are already famous people licensing their voices, and also the estates of the dead. You mentioned Stephen Fry, who is still alive as we record this and is a wonderful writer, actor, and voice.
Is it likely that Stephen Fry will license his voice, or that his heirs and successors will license his voice after he dies?
I often think of David Attenborough here.
Jules: Oh gosh.
Joanna: His voice is super famous, isn't it? As British people, it's like this voice is iconic. I cannot see how the BBC won't be trying to license Attenborough's voice.
Jules: Oh god, that's a terrible thought. I can't imagine him doing it. I think he'd be horrified if his estate and the family did it. That would be such a betrayal, but I guess some people are going there and considering it. I did spot one on ElevenLabs which was somebody who had licensed their voice, who does a lot of audio online.
Joanna: ElevenLabs has Laurence Olivier, Deepak Chopra, Maya Angelou…
Jules: Wow. Have they really got famous voices in there?
Joanna: Burt Reynolds, I'm just looking now. Richard Feynman. They've got these iconic voices. They've got John Wayne.
Jules: Oh my goodness. What would John Wayne make of that? What would Laurence Olivier make of this?
Joanna: This is the thing. I think it's very hard. You fast forward a decade, and goodness knows, this will be either completely normal or something else. It is a very interesting time.
Jules: Yes. I've certainly had my mind blown by listening to some of these voices and understanding what's possible. It is really mind-blowing.
Joanna: Regardless of whether we work with human narrators or AI narration, we still need to keep in mind principles around writing for audio. It's not a case of, “Here's the existing book in text and it will just be perfect in audio.” So, let's start with nonfiction.
What are some of the things we need to keep in mind if we are trying to adapt a nonfiction book into audio?
Jules: For nonfiction, the main thing is there are lots of visual elements that are in nonfiction books like graphs, layout features, and header hierarchies. For that, you need to find some kind of workaround, such as maybe one of these PDF uploads, or just cut these elements.
You need to look very carefully at what visual elements don't translate well into audio.
Numbers are another thing that's a little bit tricky because they're hard to take in. Your brain just doesn't hold more than five or seven things at one time. There are certain radio conventions like rounding up and down.
Also things in radio like putting somebody's job before their name, like “the company boss, Fred Bloggs” rather than “Fred Bloggs, the company boss,” because we take the context in best first and then go into the details. I think context and details is a useful concept in audio writing generally.
Other techniques that are really good are forward flagging. So, “Up next, you'll hear…” You hear that a lot on the radio so people are a bit better oriented. Then backward flagging: “So, we've just heard about wombats and now we're moving on to koala bears.”
That kind of structuring and giving signals so that people are better oriented is pretty important in nonfiction in particular.
Joanna: You mentioned lists of numbers. I go further and say lists in general. Sometimes I'll be listening to an audiobook and there's clearly a list of bullet points in the text, but the way it's read sometimes just doesn't work.
I think rewriting lists into a more coherent paragraph can work. I guess the overall point is you are adapting for audio, so sometimes you will actually have to rewrite sections.
Jules: Absolutely. What I've found more productive over the years is writing audio-first, and then I don't have to spend time doing that work of rewriting. I did find that I needed an awful lot of cuts and then some rejigging, as you say. Now I actually write audio-first, then I don't have to do that editing.
Joanna: But what do you mean by that?
When you're saying, “I write audio-first,” what do you mean?
Jules: I always read it out loud as I'm writing and test it for whether it will work on air. I'm writing it as a kind of performance. The sentences are shorter. I won't use really awkward words. I'll make sure the order of information is right, just so that it unfolds well for the listener.
There are things like mental backflips, where asides are a bit trickier with audio, so I'll probably avoid that kind of structure.
So, definitely reading it aloud, and to be honest, I think that that actually improves your writing anyway because it gives it more clarity. I just find that has been really helpful for me as an editor.
Joanna: For me, I often use a lot of references in my nonfiction books at the end of the chapter. Part of my adaptation is removing a lot from the narration. Some people are quite religious, like, “No, you have to read every single line that's in the ebook.” And I'm like, well, no, you don't.
It's not even abridged if you don't include things like resource lists or appendices. As you mentioned, you can do a download PDF.
Jules: Exactly, because they're not going to make very compelling audio. They're just going to sound like that long list of things. URLs are terrible as well. It's great to just put those into a PDF, which most of the platforms now allow you to upload.
That adds value as well to what you're providing for the readers. I think that's a really legitimate way to solve that.
Joanna: Although as a listener, I never, ever download the PDF.
Jules: True. But we know it's there if anyone does want to.
Joanna: On URLs, if there are URLs you do want to say, I use pretty links on my site to make an easy-to-say, easy-to-read URL as opposed to the super, super long one. But generally, it's hard to listen to and unless someone's taking notes, it doesn't really matter.
Jules: Good call. And “www” is so hard to say, so you can just take that bit off and just say, “yoursite.com.” You don't need to have the “www.” That's already saving you loads of syllables.
Joanna: That's an interesting thing around human narration versus AI narration. With human narration, sometimes I will pick up on things, whether it's me or another professional, and I will have read a different word, a word that's not even there, or I would never have said “www” out loud because I just assume it wouldn't be read.
Of course, with AI narration, it is going to read every single thing. It'll be really literal.
Jules: Absolutely.
Joanna: So you do have to take it away. I will add there, one of the benefits is if there is a mispronunciation across the whole book, you only have to change it once with AI and it will update the whole thing.
Jules: Oh, that's very handy. For character names and all that kind of thing.
Joanna: Yes, that is super useful. Okay, so let's come back to fiction then.
If we are writing for audio-first, what are some tips for fiction?
Jules: I think some of these points are general, whether it's fiction or nonfiction. So things like order of information and clarity and not overloading, so that there's too much for the listener to take in at once.
Remember the context that people are listening in rather than reading. They're very often doing something else. They might be in the car, or there might be noises in the background, or they might be rushing around doing jobs in the house. So, it really needs to be very clear. You can't emphasize that enough.
Some kinds of fiction are more reflective and maybe have lots of long sentences. Long sentences can be hard for a human narrator to read really effectively. So look at the length of sentences.
I heard some plays being read in my early days, and it was quite horrendous because I realized my sentences meant the actors couldn't breathe. That's a really useful tip for fiction.
That reading out loud tip I think is really important. Also, you can maybe cut some of the “he said, she said.” Depending on whether it's a straight narration of a novel or a character performance style of audiobook, you might be able to cut some of the scaffolding.
Joanna: In fact, one of the most annoying things as a listener is the repetition of words or sounds. A lot of early writing advice was, “Oh, just use ‘he said, she said' always, because it disappears on the page.”
It might disappear to the eyes, but it doesn't disappear to the ear. So as you say, get rid of “he said, she said” and use action tags like, “Morgan walked to the window” and then starts speaking. You don't have to use the word “said.”
On your breathing point, another editing tip I found with AI audio is you just add in more punctuation.
It might be incorrect punctuation according to written editorial, but it's punctuation that helps with the direction of the AI audio.
Jules: Absolutely. I do that as markup in the script anyway. You wouldn't put that in the printed form, but I used to use a lot of slashes and things and extra commas religiously to make sure the breathing was clear. So I would absolutely do that for an audiobook.
If you go into the studio, if you're reading your own, it might not be the same as your printed book, but I would have a version where all those things are in there. It saves you a lot of time later on. It saves you fluffing quite a lot.
I think the other thing that's important for fiction is where you land in sentences. There's kind of real estate within sentences, which includes the beginnings and ends of sentences.
Sometimes I used to read student fiction and quite often something like the murder weapon might be buried in the middle of a paragraph and slightly go under. Whereas if you build up to something and then it's “the knife,” that's kind of resonant.
It's something from poetry; the use of lines and where things land can be really powerful on air. It's really worth thinking about that when you're writing, using those powerful places because they give such clarity to what's going on and make it easier to follow.
Joanna: I actually think that people have to be listeners in order to understand this. If you don't listen to audiobooks and then you're trying to make an audiobook—
You need to be listening to audiobooks in order to understand what sounds good.
Jules: Absolutely. I think you have to do your research and listen to books in your genre and get the feel for it and really look closely at the writing.
I learned a lot from reading writers really closely and working out what they're doing, what tricks and techniques they are using. I think that's a really valuable thing for getting into audio-first writing.
Joanna: I also just wanted to mention that, as we record this, it's not out yet, but the ElevenLabs Version 3 is going to have direction available in square brackets. So you can say [whispered] and the dialogue will be whispered, as opposed to you having to write, “she whispered.” You can direct the voice within the text.
So that is going to be hopefully available, I guess, let's say autumn 2025 maybe. So that's certainly going to be interesting.
Jules: It sounds really interesting. It reminds me a bit of music where you have the annotation for music notes and then you have an extra layer on top, which is the expression, what's emphasized and what goes loud and what goes soft. So it's kind of aligned to that. I think that's a really interesting development.
Joanna: I think the other thing I've heard about is, at the moment we're talking about doing a lot of direction in the text, but essentially—
At some point, you should just be able to upload a book and it should be able to do all of that itself. There'll be a lot more tools and help with it. What do you think?
Jules: I'm not sure about that. I'm a bit skeptical because I just think human performance has got lots of expressive possibilities that I don't see AI easily being able to reproduce. So I'm kind of on that fence at the moment. But also, knowing how much things are changing, it's really hard to tell.
What I noticed in ElevenLabs is that you have these sliders. I thought that was really intriguing, that there are different sliders where you can move different parameters.
It's not just a case that you have that voice and that's what you work with. You can also tweak it and have it at low or high intensity and kind of change things.
So it's interesting what you were saying about working with your producer there and the degree of control that you have within that, which I think people are maybe not aware of. It's not just a case of uploading it and there it is, but there are lots of tweaks you can do on the way.
Joanna: Yes, I mean, there's a total spectrum of what you can do in audio. What I would like is the stratification of audio rights, where you can license a book for human narration and you can license a book for AI narration and then multicast.
So it's not just one thing; you can have different variations and then different price points as well.
People expect to pay more for a multicast human actor audio than they do for AI narration.
Jules: I think that's similar to what's happening with books. Special add-ons and special formats that are really sort of artisanal command a premium price. So, I think similarly with audio, that may happen there as well.
Joanna: I just want to pick up there. You said artisanal, whereas I would say artisanal. This is a classic case of two humans actually pronouncing a word differently, and that also speaks to how difficult it is to direct a human or an AI.
Jules: Absolutely. The same word pronounced differently by different people in different countries. It's a really interesting consideration in audiobooks for lesser-known languages or lesser-known dialects because it's an opportunity to maybe hear them more.
Or voice clones could be used for that kind of thing and maybe give more airing to lesser-known dialects. So maybe more variety in the kinds of audiobooks that people can produce.
Joanna: When I was at the Frankfurt Book Fair a few years ago, I heard a Ghanaian publisher, and she was basically saying, “You are all discussing this about English language audiobook production. You have this developed market, you have all the structural stuff that you need to have a really strong audiobook culture. We don't have that, and now we are going to build it.”
In the English language, we have a long history of doing this, so there are a lot of people in the industry. But there are countries where there's nothing in their native languages. So I think this is another opportunity, as you say.
Jules: Absolutely. I think that's an awesome opportunity. It's been the same with books as well. I think access to the means of production is really opening up things for people, and I think that'll just give such great variety for listeners. I think that's only positive.
Joanna: Before we finish, you are obviously an author and you also produce audiobooks. How do you recommend authors try and sell more books in audio?
What are some of the ways that you market your audiobooks?
Jules: At the moment, that's not too easy because I'm with Audible solely, and it's usually on the back of the print and ebooks. So what I would do is advertise that through Amazon and get some audiobook sales on the back of that.
Sometimes I've given out QR codes and that kind of thing, but by and large, they're just advertising on my site and I use the marketing via Amazon ads. I'm hoping that there will be more chance of audiobook-direct advertising in the future because that'll make a huge difference.
One thing I've never done, which I'm interested in—I think you do this, Joanna—is it's possible to sell books on your own website as well. Some authors are withdrawing from being with Amazon and only selling their audiobooks themselves.
Some authors have taken it into their own hands. So there is that possibility as well. Services like BookFunnel let you have your fans who want to buy your books and buy direct.
Joanna: Yes, it is actually the most profitable way to sell audiobooks, especially in bundles. For example, at CreativePennBooks.com, you can buy bundles of my audiobooks. So you get a good deal, I get more profit, and I get paid immediately.
If you go wide, to me now, going wide means having your own store plus all the other things as well. Whereas you can't do bundling on Audible because of the credit system. Of course, if you go non-exclusive with Audible, your royalty drops precipitously. So it is definitely a choice, but it can certainly be done.
Okay, fantastic.
So tell people where they can find you and your books online.
Jules: I'm online at www.method-writing.com and you can buy my ebook and print books there, and my audiobooks are on Amazon.
Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jules. That was great.
Jules: Thanks for having me, Joanna. It's a pleasure.
Producing AI-Narrated Audiobooks Using ElevenLabs With Simon Patrick
Jun 27, 2025
Is the high cost of audiobook production holding you back? What if you could create a high-quality audiobook for a fraction of the traditional cost?
In this conversation, Simon Patrick explores the world of AI narration with ElevenLabs, discussing how you can gain complete creative control, and even license your own voice clone for a new stream of income.
Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs' first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions.
You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.
Show Notes
Costs vs benefits of human vs AI narration
Features of ElevenLabs — realistic and expressive voices, creative control, ownership of final audio files for wide distribution to platforms like Spotify.
Joanna: Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs' first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions. Welcome to the show, Simon.
Simon: Thank you, Joanna. It's such a joy to be speaking with you. Your podcast and books were foundational to my daughter, Abby, becoming an author and me learning to be her publisher and all that's happened since.
I love your Patreon @thecreativepenn. It's the best money I spend every month, frankly. It's just a great community to be part of, so it's such a joy to be sharing some of what I've learned.
Joanna: Oh, thank you so much. Behind the scenes on the Patreon, Simon has done a video demo of ElevenLabs. Today, obviously, we're doing audio-only. So first up—
Tell us a bit more about your background and why you decided to get into AI-narrated audiobooks.
Simon: Okay. Well, I've got 25 years of experience in marketing and design. I still am halftime head of communications for an international charity, but we've always had our own businesses too.
My wife and I ran a small home education tuition publishing business. We've home-educated our three kids, which brings me to Abby, my daughter who brought me into your world of book publishing.
She was going to college, studying early years education, and was just bored out of her mind. She asked if she could drop out of college to be a writer instead. She'd been writing a book since she was 15. To the astonishment of her friends and some of ours too, we said yes.
Let me add, it was responsible parenting. We made her finish the term, stick it out, and do the work experience. By Christmas 2019, she'd left to pursue finishing her book based on the deal that —
If she learned to write, I would learn to publish for her.
Joanna: Wow!
Simon: So I attended the first Self Publishing Show in that crazy spring of 2020. I think you were there too, just a few days before the pandemic shut us all down. I've listened to hundreds of your podcasts, read your books, done some of the Self-Publishing Formula courses, and learned to be Abby's publisher.
Since then, I have used those skills and connected with a few other authors, so I probably publish a book or two a month, something like that.
Audio has always been the stumbling block. I love audiobooks. As a family, we must consume hundreds of hours a month of them. There are incredible narrators like Ray Porter and Daniel Rigby, who self-narrates his own Audible exclusives, and my absolute favourite, a guy called Jeff Hayes, who narrates incredibly.
They're amazing talents, and I don't think AI is going to touch them because they bring so much humanity to the performance.
But to ordinary authors and publishers, those narrators are inaccessible. I don't even want to think about what they cost.
For Abby, who is still just starting out, any professional narration would cost her three to four thousand dollars for her books. The math just doesn't work. While there are options like a royalty split with ACX, Audible's publishing platform, I struggle with that.
Firstly, you're tied in exclusively to Audible for seven years, and we're big fans of going wide.
Secondly, you're only getting 20% of the royalties when it's being split. I just don't think for us, they're ever going to make that money back. So all of that is what led me in early 2023 to be searching for AI audio options.
ChatGPT was going crazy, you were demoing all of that at the time, and I figured there must be some kind of AI audio option that would let me take control of the process and hopefully produce good audiobooks way more cheaply than current options. That's when I discovered ElevenLabs.
Joanna: There's lots to unpack there. First of all, as you mentioned, there are some incredible human narrators, and we want to acknowledge them. I'm also a human narrator myself.
For most authors, especially indie authors or new authors, it's not a choice between human or AI; it's AI or nothing because they can't afford the fees.
As you said, a lot of the time you don't know if you're going to make the money back. So I think that's really important to acknowledge.
There are lots of AI narration options now. It is hard for authors to decide which platform to use.
So what is ElevenLabs, and why do you think it's the best option for quality and also for publishing reach?
You mentioned ACX, and there's obviously AVV, the Audible Virtual Voice. Most people might think, “Well, maybe I should just do that.”
Give us an overview on why you made that decision to go with ElevenLabs.
Simon: Absolutely. ElevenLabs continues to be the most realistic AI platform out there. They kicked off about two and a half years ago. I was one of their first users, and even back then, they were so much better than everything else.
There were lots of programmers wanting to do clever things with APIs and websites, but I just wanted to make audiobooks with these things. They were actually listening, which is remarkable in the publishing industry sometimes.
About a year and a half ago, and for reference, we're in June 2025 right now, they launched ElevenLabs Studio. It can take a whole book, like the ePub that I've worked on for Abby or a Word document, you can drop it in and have it convert it chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph into a great-sounding audiobook.
The high quality and natural-sounding elements of it are why I was first attracted to them. The expressiveness is just another step above.
The comparison with Amazon's Virtual Voice is that it's so much more pleasant to listen to, but it doesn't just sound better —
What I love about it is the complete creative control it gives me. There are thousands of voices I can pick from, a whole library of voices.
They're real people, people like me, actually, who have recorded their voice and then licensed it to ElevenLabs and get paid a small amount. Then when it's used, there's actually compensation to those who've licensed their voices to it.
It’s not like the large language models like ChatGPT where the whole universe seems to have been scraped and compiled into this thing. They're being super diligent about making sure it's all kosher, that it's real people's voices and they're getting compensated.
Beyond that, the tools they're building give you control. They're incredibly open to listening to feedback, which has been brilliant. I'm talking to the programmers regularly. They've got a great Discord where they're asking for feedback.
With the tools, I can spend time perfecting the book. I can get the dialogue just the way I want it. I can create a duet audiobook with a male narrator for male POVs and a female for female POVs. I can even do multi-cast and assign different voices to each character in the book.
Probably most importantly, I can download the whole thing as WAV files or MP3s.
The big difference with something like Amazon Virtual Voice is that I own what I've created with ElevenLabs.
It's a commercial license, so I can put them into BookFunnel's audio delivery service, I can put them on my website, you can add them to a Kickstarter, stick them on YouTube, or just give them away for free if I wanted to.
In terms of publishing reach, they're doing a lot. We were kind of stuck with either self-publishing, YouTube, or Kobo, who are superstars and super open. But one of the game changers that's happened in the last few months is you can now add them to Spotify, which has come in as the big disruptor for Audible and Amazon.
You've done that recently with the book that we produced together. How's that been?
Joanna:Death Valley, which has been on the feed, you can listen to a couple of chapters, and that's using my voice clone. We'll come back to the voice clone in a minute.
As you mentioned, I think it's mainly the ownership of the files and the Spotify distribution.
At the moment, it really is only Google's auto-narration and ElevenLabs that you can use legitimately on Spotify through Findaway Voices. You cannot use the AVV files anywhere else.
So I think that's incredibly important because, of course—
We can talk forever about how to make audio, but it's also about selling audio, isn't it?
Simon: And for anyone who's dealt with KDP or Audible customer services, I probably don't have to say what the experience was like. So another reason I love ElevenLabs is their support has been brilliant.
There's this Discord I mentioned where there are dozens of super helpful and patient people giving input. Their customer service team replies quickly, it's personal, they're helpful, and they've got amazing documentation.
Stepping back a little bit, the fact that we can create well-narrated audiobooks for a hundred to two hundred dollars plus a few days of learning and production on each one is just incredible.
I took my two boys to a local Comic-Con recently, and there was a self-published author there with a single beautiful book. He'd clearly poured his heart and money into this thing.
There were beautiful cover bookmarks and giveaways, and then I saw he had an audiobook. We got talking about it. He'd got it professionally narrated, and he opened up and said it cost £7,000.
I honestly wanted to cry. I genuinely get emotional about it even now. I want us as authors and publishers to put our time, energy, and money into creating incredible stories and getting our words out into the world and just make everything around that as simple as possible, using tech where we can.
Joanna: I just want to comment on this because one of the reasons we timestamp these episodes is because I'll have people email me and say, “Oh, but you said this,” and I'm like, “Yeah, but when did I say that?”
For example, in 2014 when I started audiobook publishing on ACX, they were the only thing out there, and they were the bee's knees. We had a much higher royalty rate, there were very few audiobooks around, and you could make that money back. The amount of money you mentioned, you could make back quite quickly.
Now, I know some people will be saying, “Oh, but I make that money back.” And I'm like, “Well, yeah, if you are an established author, absolutely.” If you have a popular series, if you know that you already make that kind of money from audiobooks, then you can.
We are in a different era in 2025. There's a lot more audio, and of course, AI is a double-edged sword. There is going to be more audio than ever before.
The question is, how do we make that money back?
If we lower the costs, then we also lower the amount of revenue we need to make to offset that.
Simon: And you know, it's going to move on fast, but now is an extraordinary time. I love good audiobooks, and the fact that AI can help me make those now is very exciting to me.
Joanna: It's super fun. You and I both have a reasonably technical background, so we can use these tools. To be fair, you said wonderful documentation. I am terrible at reading documentation. I just jump in and give it a go.
There are people who don't know anything about AI audio. How does it work?
Can you give a few key elements and tips for authors if they want to use ElevenLabs for AI narration?
Simon: Yeah, I've got five tips for you. First, go in and check it out. There is a creator package that you can get for half price for the first month. I would say for exploration, it is worth getting for $11 just to have a little bit of a play with it.
Getting familiar with the platform can be a little intimidating because it does lots of different things, like voice changing, sound effects, and dubbing video.
We are really only interested in the Studio tool. As soon as you go into that Studio tool, it will start to feel familiar. You can click “Create an audiobook,” drop your ePub in there, and basically instantly see how this thing works, breaking it into chapters, applying a voice, and clicking play.
The warning though is this creator package, at $22 a month, is not good enough to create professional audiobooks. This is my first tip: you need the Pro package, which is $99 a month, because that is what outputs 192 kilobits per second.
That's the technical specification that you need to go on BookFunnel or Spotify. You only get that by using the $99 a month package. You get about 10 hours of audio creation in that, so for a lot of people, that could make a book. The hours roll over, so you can either wait for month two and have enough hours to do it.
As soon as you're done with your book, you can downgrade to a $5 a month package, so don't worry, it's not trapping you in there. Just know that you need the $99 a month Pro package to produce your audiobooks.
My second tip is to —
Really spend time choosing or making your voice.
You had an experience with this, Joanna, where you try out a voice, commit to it, and then realize two or three chapters in that you don't like it. I've had that experience too.
So use that first month on the creator package to really play with voices. Generate your first chapter in five or six different voices. Really get familiar and comfortable with a voice that you want to use so that you're not wasting time and credits when you get into producing something.
Third, don't get overwhelmed; have fun with it. It's amazing hearing your book come to life in audio. I feel if you give it an hour, the Studio tool is pretty intuitive. If you have the level of tech ability to do something like typesetting in Atticus or Vellum or use Scrivener, you can absolutely master using Studio.
My fourth tip, and a warning, is that it still takes time. This isn't some one-button wonder. Your novella, Death Valley, was six and a half hours long. That took 18 hours of editing.
Joanna: And this is where people get confused because with AVV, the Audible Virtual Voice, there is no control. You literally do click one button and it goes live. There's almost no point in proof-listening to it because you can't actually change it.
With Studio, you have such fine control that you can add pauses, a breath in the middle of a sentence, or change the emphasis.
You kind of direct it with Studio, don't you?
Simon: That's the word I use, yes. Directing. It's like you're directing an audiobook. If you are doing non-fiction, it is borderline a one-click wonder. It will deliver it amazingly, and you need to listen to it once, and you're good to go.
If you've spent a year or two writing a book, think about the effort we put into making it look good in the typesetting and the covers. A day or two to listen to it, refine it, and make it represent your vision is not time wasted. I'm only interested in high-quality audiobooks that do the story justice.
I want to be proud of it. I want Abby to be proud of it. I highly encourage people, particularly fiction writers, to be prepared to spend two or three days working on the book. It is so rewarding to get something that comes out the other end that you are proud of.
Joanna: And just on the proofing, if you work with a human narrator, you will be doing proofing. You listen to the audio, find the timestamp, explain what you want changed, and send it back to the human to rerecord.
The process is probably pretty similar in terms of the amount of time taken, but you can do it yourself, and there are areas that help.
For example, if there's a character name, you can fix that once for the whole audio, can't you?
Simon: Correct. It's a pronunciation dictionary for any words. It really struggled with “croissant.” It does little random things. I think our favorite was when it pronounced “desert” as “dessert.”
Joanna: It just would not stop wanting some dessert! What are some other tips?
Simon: My fifth and final tip right now, and this is only pertinent to those listening as this is broadcast, is if you are wanting to do an audiobook for your fiction book, you should wait.
If you're doing non-fiction, the existing models are amazing. But last week, their Version 3 model was released, and it is a game-changer.
The initial reactions are, “I can never go back to Version 2.”
Version 3, from an expression and liveliness perspective, but also from a control and direction perspective, is changing the game. It wasn't even supposed to come out for a couple of months, so they're moving forward with this fast.
The real reason to wait is it's got one massive feature upgrade that I've been waiting for for at least a year: You can add emotion tags. Previously, if we wanted someone to whisper, sometimes it would figure it out from the text.
Other times, we would literally be adding, “he whispered,” “she shouted,” “he said excitedly.” We were kind of gaming the system.
Now, we can add tags in square brackets to the text like [whispers], [shouts], [says thoughtfully], [says in a British accent].
There is this whole world of things it can do that allows us to work much more effectively as a director, particularly for dialogue and emphasis. There is even a button that will read the text and put in suggested tags throughout the book. The AI is reading those instructions but not reading them out loud.
So it is the big breakthrough in terms of us creating audiobooks that sound exactly how we want them to.
Joanna: That is really good. I'm looking forward to that as well. Let's wind it back for people. You mentioned non-fiction quite quickly.
For non-fiction, what do I do about the table of contents, URLs, or images in my text?
Simon: When you upload the ePub, you can just delete those bits.
I feel like people forget that you have control. You can completely change the front matter, the back matter, and the bits around it to be something that's going to work most effectively when it's delivered on the platforms you want. And you can create different versions.
Joanna: And I think it's really important for people to remember with audiobooks that it is an adaptation, however you're doing it. It is a different product.
With Death Valley, for example, I would say to you, “Oh, well, let's just rewrite that sentence,” because it would be easier for me to rewrite it and it will keep the same meaning.
Simon: Exactly. You have that luxury as the author, which is why people doing it themselves is wonderful. When producing your book for you, I can't take those liberties.
Joanna: So let's come to the voice clone idea because, of course, you mentioned earlier that you've licensed your voice. We used my voice clone for Death Valley, and I am still on the fence as to whether or not to license that publicly.
What are some tips for people who want to license their voice or do a voice clone?
Simon: For me, it's been amazing getting this bonus income that I totally didn't expect. For Abby, it's been life-changing. She is the most popular English British female voice. She's called Amelia on ElevenLabs. She's earning enough from her voice that she could quit a toxic job and go full-time writing. It’s extraordinary.
So, in terms of tips, if you are recording your own voice, whether you are going to use it yourself or think about sharing it with others, first of all, the quality of the recording is essential.
You want to be using a good microphone in a quiet place. There are lots of tools to clean it up, but nothing is going to compare to something that's recorded well.
When you are delivering your voice, the delivery needs to be varied but consistent. I generally get authors to read their own book. You want to give variations in terms of tone and volume, from whispering through to high energy, as though you are reading to an engaged audience.
You do not want to put on character voices. That's really important. The AI will pick up on the variations in your delivery, but it gets very confused if you've done character voices because it doesn't know how those fit in with how you speak.
A cheat code for improving the quality if you don't have a really good mic or a quiet area is Adobe Podcast. It's a free service with an enhanced speech function. You can put your recording in there and massively improve how it sounds.
The tip is to not put it out at a 100% treatment; you want kind of 70% to 90% of their enhanced speech applied, or else it sounds too obviously affected by AI.
Joanna: And right now, my J.F. Penn voice is my voice, and I'm the only one who can use it.
There's another step if you want to license it and put it in the voice market, isn't there?
Simon: Yes, and the first challenge of that is genuinely a moral evaluation. If you want to monetize your voice, you have to decide if you are prepared for your voice to be used to say almost anything.
ElevenLabs has controls to stop things like hate speech or sexual content, but to really monetize it, you have to switch off a feature called “live moderation,” which prevents things like swearing.
As soon as you turn that live moderation on, your voice becomes unavailable for most uses that would make money, like audiobooks or conversational AI.
The second option to consider is the notice period. You can choose to have the right to instantly withdraw your voice or set a notice period of up to two years. They pay more if you're prepared to have a longer minimum period.
As a producer, I am not going to start using someone's voice for an audiobook series if I might not have it to use in three months' time. I instantly filter for anything less than a year's notice period and generally only pick two years.
If you want to monetize your voice, you have to turn live moderation off and give a two-year notice period, in my opinion.
A final tip would be to be safe. Do not publicly share your voice's name and connect it with you as a person. Forget about voice recognition for telephone banking, for example.
Also, do your research. See what voices are most popular, what descriptions work best, and think about the sample you provide.
Joanna: As we head towards a close, we do need to quickly come back to —
ElevenReader. It's an emerging place to publish audiobooks, too. You can also upload e-books, and then listeners can choose the voice.
Back in 2020, I wrote in my book on AI that at some point there will be an app where listeners can choose whatever voice they want to listen to my book in, and this is it.
Simon: It's super exciting. It's an app you'll find on your iPhone or Android store. It's the consumer-facing side of ElevenLabs. You can drop in pretty much any content, like PDFs, e-books, and webpages, and it turns any text into speech. Right from the beginning, it's also offered books for direct sale.
Joanna: We have to mention that Melania Trump has used a voice clone of her quite distinctive voice to do her memoir, also called Melania. She has basically said this is the future of publishing. “Here's my AI voice clone, and it's on ElevenReader.”
I thought that was a tipping point for me because it means that it's going mainstream.
Simon: So you can see it like Audible or Spotify, except you can choose what voice you want to narrate it. For authors, it's an amazingly simple way to offer an audiobook.
You don't even have to go through the studio production process. You can just sign up to ElevenReader publishing and upload your book. Boom, they'll review it and publish it.
Joanna: I would say to people, you must —
Read the terms and conditions of any site that you ever upload anything to.
Also, if your e-book is in Kindle Unlimited and exclusive to Amazon, you can't upload that e-book to ElevenReader because it's exclusive.
Simon: And we have just taken Abby's books out of Kindle Unlimited so we can put them in ElevenReader this week.
Joanna: Before we go, you have courses coming and you also offer services to authors.
Tell us about those and where people can find you online.
Simon: Wonderful, thank you, Joanna. First, I'd be a very neglectful father if I didn't mention that Abby's latest book, Stolen Legacy, went live yesterday. You can find Abby Hope Patrick and her Deadly Ever After series on Amazon and, very soon, ElevenReader.
You can find my voice on ElevenReader; I'm “Christopher” on there.
The courses are something new. We've started a new website called Novel Productions. The first course will be “AI Audio for Authors” and will cover everything people need to know to get themselves not just onto ElevenLabs, but all platforms.
It's also going to have training on how to record your own voice clones and monetize them if you want to. I was about to publish it, and then Version 3 of ElevenLabs came out, so I don't want to train anyone on anything that's not going to be the best in a couple of months.
So right now, if you go to Novel.Productions, there will be a waiting list that you can sign up to.
Regarding services, you were my first beta tester outside the books that I publish myself. We're still weighing up how affordable we can make it. I'd rather teach people first, and if they don't want to then do it themselves, we'll see how we can help.
I'm beta testing that with authors, so you can email me at simon@novel.productions.
Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time, Simon. That was great.
Simon: Thank you, Joanna. It has been such a pleasure.
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Jun 13, 2025
How will generative AI change search and book discoverability in the years ahead? How can you make sure your books and your author website can be found in AI tools like ChatGPT? Thomas Umstattd Jr. joins me to discuss Generative Engine Optimisation (GEO) and how it will replace traditional SEO marketing. I first covered this […]
Casting A Wider Net: Author Brand And The Writing Business With JD Barker
Jun 09, 2025
How can you ‘cast a wider net' and reach more readers with your books? How can you embrace the best of publishing options for your work? JD Barker explains how his publishing business works. In the intro, How Authors Measure Success [Self-Publishing Advice]; Creating through Grief [Go Creative]; Death Valley; Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition; Gothic Cathedrals; […]
Music, Writing, And The Mind-Body Connection With Jennifer Roig-Francoli
Jun 02, 2025
How can creativity be expressed in both writing and music? How can you improve your creativity by being more mindful of your physical body? How can you manage anxiety when speaking or performing? Jennifer Roig-Francoli gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, Taylor Swift buys back the rights to her first six albums […]
Crafting Story Worlds, Creative Control, And Leveraging AI Tools With Dave Morris
May 26, 2025
Why is creative control and owning your intellectual property so important for a long-term author career? How can AI tools help you be more creative and amplify your curiosity? Dave Morris talks about his forty-year publishing career and why he's still pushing the boundaries of what he can create. In the intro, Writing Storybundle; Finding […]
Embracing Change: How To Flux with April Rinne
May 19, 2025
How can you embrace the process of change in life and author business, especially in an era of AI? How can you take control of what's possible and be more comfortable with uncertainty? How can you develop a career portfolio that future proofs you in changing times? April Rinne shares her insights into how we […]
Language, Line Breaks, And Punctuation. Poetry With Abi Pollokoff
May 12, 2025
What can prose writers learn from poets about language, line breaks, and punctuation? How can we help people engage with our work in different ways? Abi Pollokoff talks about her advice from poetry. In the intro, how to reframe success as a writer [Ink in Your Veins]; How I Write Podcast with Dean Koontz; Direct […]
Make Life Your Biggest Art Project: Pia Leichter On Writing, Creative Courage, And Changing Your Narrative
May 05, 2025
How can you explore the edges of your creativity to find your next becoming? How can you turn the evolution of your life into art? Pia Leichter talks about her creative courage, different ways to rest, and intuitive book marketing in this interview. In the intro, Lessons from Six Years Writing Full-time [Sacha Black]; Reflections […]
See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Creative Entrepreneurship With Dr Rebecca White
Apr 28, 2025
How can you implement ‘See, Do, Repeat' in your writing and author business? How can you embrace optimism as a creative entrepreneur and move past fear of judgment to publish your book? Dr Rebecca White shares her journey and tips. In the intro, Short form audio opportunities and tips [Self Publishing Advice]; Wiley's guidelines for […]
Expanding Audiobook Revenue Through YouTube And Podcasting With Derek Slaton
Apr 21, 2025
How can you shift your writing and publishing process to focus on YouTube and podcasting as a primary audiobook focus? How can you use AI tools to help you create, publish, and translate your books? Derek Slaton goes into his indie author process. Inspired by Derek, you can now find my audiobooks on YouTube: Books […]
Ebook Sales, Subscriptions, Audiobooks And Book Marketing With Tara Cremin From Kobo Writing Life
Apr 14, 2025
What are the different ways you can distribute and monetise your ebooks and audiobooks through Kobo Writing Life? How can you market them more effectively and reach more readers? With Tara Cremin. In the intro, the potential impact of tariffs and what to do about it [Self Publishing Advice]; Pep talk for authors during chaotic […]
Writing Memoir From A Life In Film With Gretchen McGowan
Apr 07, 2025
What’s the difference between telling a story on screen and on the page? How does indie film production overlap with indie publishing—and what can writers learn from the world of filmmaking? Why might a producer choose creative freedom over big studio deals, and what does that mean when it comes to book marketing? Gretchen McGowan […]
Death Valley Audiobook Chapters And Book Marketing Tips With J.F Penn
Apr 04, 2025
What are some ways you can market a book during a launch period using audio, video, and text? What does my JFPenn voice clone sound like narrating the first two chapters of my thriller, Death Valley? J.F. Penn is the Award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, horror, […]
From Hollywood To Novels: TD Donnelly On Screenwriting, Adaptation, and Storytelling That Lasts
Mar 31, 2025
What's the difference between writing a book and writing a screenplay? What are the different business models? If you've written a screenplay, how can you get it read? TD Donnelly talks about the challenges and rewards of screenwriting, as well as his first thriller novel. In the intro, ProWritingAid spring sales 25% off; Key takeaways […]
How Ordinary Drafts Become Extraordinary Books. Revisionaries With Kristopher Jansma
Mar 24, 2025
How can we avoid the mistake of comparing our first drafts with the finished books we love? How can we improve our manuscripts? Kristopher Jansma gives his tips. In the intro, Finding your deepest reason to write [Ink In Your Veins]; London Book Fair, AI audio and ‘vibe coding' [Self Publishing with ALLi]; Pirated database […]
Writing As A Tool For Grief And Dealing With Change With Karen Wyatt
Mar 17, 2025
How can writing help you through difficult times, whether that's a change you didn't anticipate or an experience of grief? How can you differentiate between writing for yourself vs. writing for publication? Karen Wyatt gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon opens up AI narration with Audible Virtual Voice on the KDP Dashboard [KDP Help]; […]
Intuition, Journaling, And Overcoming Fear. The Creative Cure With Jacob Nordby
Mar 10, 2025
How can you release more creativity into your writing — and your life? What are some practices to foster creativity in a time of change and overwhelm? Jacob Nordby gives his tips. In the intro, tips for spring cleaning as indie authors; Death Valley – A Thriller Kickstarter; Death Valley book trailer; Footprints Podcast – […]
Writing Action Adventure And Traveling For Book Research With Luke Richardson
Mar 03, 2025
What are the tropes and reader expectations for action adventure thrillers? Why publish into KU and what are some of the ways to market there? How can travel enrich your writing? Luke Richardson gives his tips. In the intro, ProWritingAid launches their Manuscript Analysis tool; Navigating legal risk in memoir [The Indy Author]; Social media […]
Kickstarter For Authors With Oriana Leckert
Feb 24, 2025
How can you use Kickstarter to help bring your creative vision into reality? What are some of the biggest mistakes authors make? What are some tips to ensure your campaign is a success? Oriana Leckert shares her expertise. In the intro, AI-narrated audiobooks from ElevenLabs will now be accepted on Spotify through FindawayVoices; A Midwinter […]
How do you keep the happiness and joy in your writing practice, along with managing the business side of being an author? Marissa Meyer gives her tips. In the intro, How authors can price their books for profit [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; How to recover from author burnout [Self-Publishing Advice]; my Brooke and Daniel crime series […]
Writing And Selling Short Stories With Douglas Smith
Feb 10, 2025
How can you use short stories to improve your writing craft across different genres? How can you make money from licensing your short stories in different ways? How do you structure a short story collection? Douglas Smith shares his tips. In the intro, S&S imprint says that authors no longer need to get blurbs for […]
Aristotle for Novelists, And A Strategy For Selling More Books With Douglas Vigliotti
Feb 03, 2025
Why is ‘story' more important than ‘writing'? How can you write characters that engage the reader? And how can you sell more books by connecting authentically? Douglas Vigliotti shares his tips. In the intro, Bookshop.org will start selling ebooks [TechCrunch]; LinkedIn for Book Promotion [ALLi]; The Money Making Expert, branding and marketing [DOAC]; 24 Assets – […]
Fair Use, Copyright, And Licensing. AI And The Author Business With Alicia Wright
Jan 27, 2025
How does generative AI relate to fair use when it comes to copyright? What are the possibilities for AI licensing? Alicia Wright shares her thoughts on generative AI for authors. In the intro, Publishing leaders share 9 Bold Predictions for 2025 [BookBub]; OpenAI launches Operator [The Verge]; Bertelsmann (who own Penguin Random House) intends to […]
Building A Long Term Author Business, Dictation, Kickstarter, and Short Story Collections With Kevin J Anderson
Jan 20, 2025
How can you build a long-term author career with multiple streams of income? How can you use technology for the grunt work and not the fun part of writing? Kevin J Anderson gives his tips. In the intro, has TikTok gone dark? [AP]; BookVault is expanding printing to Australia; GPSR, the EU’s new General Product […]
Balancing Creativity With Building A Business, And Author Nation With Joe Solari
Jan 13, 2025
How can you balance creativity with business in order to have a profitable, long-term author career? What were the successes and challenges of the Author Nation conference? Joe Solari shares his perspective. In the intro, the money episode [Ink In Your Veins]; WISE for multi-currency banking; creative planning tips for 2025 [Self~Publishing Advice]; Surprising Trends […]
Writing Tips: Craft, Structure, and Voice With Kristen Tate
Jan 06, 2025
Are you curious about the hidden structures that turn ordinary manuscripts into irresistible page-turning stories? Wondering how to shape your characters, scenes, and chapters so readers can’t put your book down? Kristen Tate shares her tips. In the intro, key book publishing paths [Jane Friedman]; sub-rights and why it’s important to understand how many ways […]
My 2025 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn
Jan 01, 2025
Happy New Year 2025! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I also measure it in years. At the beginning of each year, I publish an article (and podcast episode) here, which helps keep me accountable. If you’d […]
Review Of My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn
Dec 30, 2024
Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you can take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. It's always interesting looking […]
Creative Clarity: Focus, Self-Care, And A Little Bit Of Tough Love
Dec 23, 2024
How can you create when there's an overwhelming list of things to do and too many competing priorities? How can you balance self-care with achieving your creative goals. In this episode, I’ll share some tips from previous podcast guests to help you step back, reassess your priorities, and hopefully help you let go of at […]
Book Proposals, Writing Non-Fiction, And Supercommunicators With Charles Duhigg
Dec 16, 2024
How can you write a book proposal that will make a publisher want to buy your book? How can you write a successful non-fiction book that both interests you and attracts a lot of readers? How can you improve your communication in person and online? Charles Duhigg gives his thoughts. In the intro, HarperCollins CEO […]
Building A Business Ecosystem Around Non-Fiction Books With Michael Bungay Stanier
Dec 09, 2024
How can you build a scalable business around non-fiction books? How can you turn a book into multiple streams of income? How can you delegate in order to scale? Michael Bungay Stanier shares his thoughts. In the intro, Bookfunnel's Universal Book Links, and How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition; ALCS survey results of writers on […]
Writing The Other And Self-Publishing in South Africa With Ashling McCarthy
Dec 02, 2024
How can we write from the perspective of others while still respecting different cultures? How can a children's book author make money from bulk sales? How is self-publishing in South Africa different? With Ashling McCarthy. In the intro, Spotify for Authors and Katie Cross on self-narration and email marketing; How do I know when to […]
The Intuitive Author With Tiffany Yates Martin
Nov 25, 2024
How can you manage the competing priorities of an author career? How can you deal with the demons we all have to wrestle with along the way? Tiffany Yates Martin talks about the role of intuition in decision-making, the challenges of feedback and rejection, and the importance of reclaiming creativity during difficult times. In the […]
Writing Memoir And Dealing With Haters With Natalie Maclean
Nov 18, 2024
How can you write memoir with deep sensory detail? How does terroir in wine equate to the writer's voice? How can you manage your online presence while still protecting yourself from the haters? Multi-award-winning wine writer Natalie MacLean shares her tips. In the intro, initial thoughts on Author Nation 2024, photos from Death Valley @jfpennauthor, […]
Dark Tourism And Self-Publishing Premium Print Books With Images With Leon Mcanally
Nov 11, 2024
What is dark tourism and why are many of us interested in places associated with death and tragedy? How can you write and self-publish a premium print guidebook while managing complicated design elements, image permissions, and more? With Leon Mcanally. In the intro, level up with author assistants [Written Word Media]; and Blood Vintage signing […]
Self-Publishing A Second Edition Of A Non-Fiction Book With Gin Stephens
Nov 04, 2024
How do you approach writing a second edition of a non-fiction book? How does self-publishing compare to working with a traditional publisher? Can you build a viable business without active social media use? Gin Stephens shares her tips. In the intro, the end of Kindle Vella [Amazon]; Lessons from week one of the book launch […]
What are some of the key elements in writing horror? How can you be successful writing and self-publishing in the genre? With Boris Bacic. In the intro, ISBNs made easy [Self-publishing Advice]; Written Word Media’s 2024 author survey; Taylor Swift self-publishing [Morning Brew]; Thoughts on audiobooks [Seth Godin]; This is Strategy: Make Better Plans – […]
Scaling An Author Business With Rachel McLean
Oct 21, 2024
How do you successfully scale an author business? How do you delegate to your team as well as continue to research and write the books you love? With award-winning crime author, Rachel McLean. In the intro, new Kindle devices [Amazon]; new European markets for Spotify audiobooks [Spotify]; customisable audio with Google NotebookLM; Amazon Ads launches […]
7 Lessons Learned From Over 10 Million Downloads Of The Creative Penn Podcast
Oct 16, 2024
The Creative Penn Podcast just hit 10 million downloads as reported by my audio host, Blubrry! The podcast is also the main content on my YouTube channel @thecreativepenn, which has had over 3.9 million views, so the total could be closer to 14m. I'm pretty happy with that, so thanks for listening! Here are some […]
Writing Historical Fiction And Non-Fiction With Emily E K Murdoch
Oct 14, 2024
Can you be successful as an author across different genres and different pen names? How do traditional publishing and going indie compare? How can you diversify into multiple streams of income as an author? With Emily E.K. Murdoch. In the intro, Planning for retirement [Self-Publishing Advice]; my list of money books; Red flags in serialised (and […]
Author Mindset, Writing And Marketing Non-Fiction With Ariel Curry
Oct 07, 2024
How can the ‘hungry author' mindset help you become more of a successful author? Why do you need to shift your point of view to that of the reader so your book resonates with them? What are some of the key aspects of writing and marketing non-fiction books? Ariel Curry gives her tips in this […]
How To Make Readers Laugh. Writing Humour With Dave Cohen
Sep 30, 2024
How can you bring laughter into your books regardless of genre? What are the challenges of writing a novel after an award-winning career as a comedy writer for TV and radio? Dave Cohen shares his lessons learned in this interview. In the intro, how to keep a career fresh over multiple books [Author Nation Podcast]; […]
Selling Books In Person At Live Events With Mark Lefebvre
Sep 23, 2024
How can you be successful at connecting with readers and selling books at live, in-person events? What are some practical tips as well as mindset shifts that can help you make the most of the opportunities? Mark Leslie Lefebvre shares his experience. In the intro, Beventi for author events, Reader survey results [Written Word Media]; […]
Pivoting Genres And Growing An Author Business With Sacha Black
Sep 16, 2024
Success as an author comes with challenges around managing money, setting boundaries, and living sustainably without burning out. Sacha Black/Ruby Roe talks about her lessons learned after five years as a full-time author entrepreneur. In the intro, Content marketing for authors [BookBub]; Vineyard research [Books and Travel]; AI-generated voice cloning for select US Audible narrators […]
Lessons Learned from 13 Years as an Author Entrepreneur
Sep 13, 2024
In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 13 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller, dark fantasy, horror, crime, and memoir author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an […]
Self-Publishing Training Manuals And Focusing On Your True Fans With Guy Windsor
Sep 09, 2024
What needs to go into a training manual if you are teaching physical skills? How can you focus in on your super fans and create only for them, while still making a living from multiple streams of income? Guy Windsor explains more in this interview. In the intro, Amazon celebrates a decade of Kindle Unlimited […]
Writing Horror And Selling Direct With David Viergutz
Sep 02, 2024
How can you sell a fiction experience rather than just selling a story? How do our personal obsessions arise in our books, whatever the genre? David Viergutz shares his thoughts in this episode. In the intro, the best marketing investments for authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Abundance mindset for authors [KWL Podcast]; Written Word Media have […]
Author Mindset Tips And Publishing In Germany With AD Wilk
Aug 26, 2024
How can you move past your limiting beliefs to find success as an author? How can you successfully self-publish in Germany? Andrea Wilk shares her thoughts in this episode. In the intro, how to cope with writer conferences [Ink in Your Veins]; Author Nation schedule; Conde Nast signs a licensing deal with OpenAI [Hollywood Reporter]; […]
A Touch of the Madness: Creativity In Writing And Filmmaking With Larry Kasanoff
Aug 19, 2024
How can you balance creativity with business when it comes to writing — and filmmaking? How can you access that ‘touch of madness' in everything you create? How can authors pitch their books for film? All this and more with Larry Kasanoff. In the intro, Paid ads with BookBub, Facebook and Amazon [BookBub]; Blood Vintage […]
Artificial Intelligence (AI) In Publishing With Thad McIlroy
Aug 12, 2024
How are publishers using AI and what are the potential use cases in the future? Why is this an exciting time in publishing for those who use the new tools to expand their creative possibilities? Thad McIlroy and I have a wonderful discussion about the current state of AI in publishing, and where we think […]
Heart. Soul. Pen. Find Your Voice on the Page With Robin Finn
Aug 05, 2024
How can you write freely and release any blocks that are holding you back? How can you focus on the strengths in your writing and avoid critical voice? Robin Finn gives plenty of writing tips in this interview. In the intro, KDP's identity verification; Why authors need platforms [Kathleen Schmidt]; Romance genre report from K-lytics; […]
Pivoting Genres And Writing Historical Fiction With Anna Sayburn Lane
Jul 29, 2024
When is it time to leave an unsuccessful series behind and pivot into something new? What is the process of writing to market? Anna Sayburn Lane explores these topics and more. In the intro, help with Amazon KDP Account suspension [Kindlepreneur]; Selling direct to the EU? Thresholds coming in 2025; Some honest thoughts about the […]
Why is writing emotion so important in our books, whatever the genre? How can we create an emotional connection between our readers and our characters? Roz Morris gives her tips in this episode. In the intro, how to get your indie book into schools [Self-Publishing Advice]; Did my bestselling book turn out to be a […]
Intuitive Discovery Writing And Serial Fiction With KimBoo York
Jul 15, 2024
How can you lean into intuition and curiosity to embrace discovery writing? How might serial fiction fit into your business model? KimBoo York gives her tips and more in this interview. In the intro, BookVault now has integration with PayHip; 7 lessons learned from 5 years writing full-time [Sacha Black, Rebel Author Podcast]; My author […]
Preparing Your Manuscript For Pitching Agents With Renee Fountain
Jul 08, 2024
How can you make sure your manuscript is ready for submission to an agent — or for publication if you go indie? What are the benefits and challenges of traditional publishing? Will they really do all the marketing for you? Renee Fountain talks about these things and more in today's interview. In the intro, Referencing […]
Turn Words Into Wealth With Aurora Winter
Jul 01, 2024
Can you have a business with a soul through writing? How does the business of fiction differ from non-fiction? What are some tips for pitching a book for film & TV? All this and more with Aurora Winter. In the intro, 100 book marketing ideas [Written Word Media]; 25 indie authors tips to finding success […]
Writing Hard Truths And Tips For Writing Non-Fiction With Efren Delgado
Jun 24, 2024
How do we write authentic humanity into our books, whether that's our own experience or a fictional character's? How can we embrace the challenges of life and the author journey and make the most of the opportunities along the way? Efren Delgado gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, How to plan and […]
Collaborative Writing With AI With Rachelle Ayala
Jun 21, 2024
How can we use AI tools to enhance and improve our creative process? How can we double down on being human by writing what we are passionate about, while still using generative AI to help fulfil our creative vision? Rachelle Ayala gives her thoughts in this episode. Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join […]
Writing Through Fear With Caroline Donahue
Jun 17, 2024
What are some of the common fears that writers face? How can we work through them in order to create more freely? Caroline Donahue gives her tips in this interview. In the intro, How to avoid indie author scams [ALLi; Writer Beware]; Financial strategies and mindset [Self Publishing Advice]; Apple Intelligence at WWDC [The Verge; […]
Click Testing Ideas And Selling Direct With Steve Pieper
Jun 10, 2024
What are the pros and cons of selling direct and building an ecommerce business for your books? How can you use click testing on Meta to help refine your creative and book marketing ideas? Steve Pieper explains in this interview. In the intro, The Hotsheet with Jane Friedman; 20 ways you should be using AI […]
7 Tips For Writing Action Adventure Thrillers With J.F. Penn
Jun 05, 2024
What are the tropes of action adventure thrillers? How can you please readers and sell more books? J.F. Penn shares her own tips and also features excerpts from interviews with other thriller writers. J.F. Penn is the award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the ARKANE action-adventure thrillers, the Mapwalker fantasy adventures, […]
The Seasons Of Writing With Jacqueline Suskin
Jun 03, 2024
How can you adopt the seasons of nature in your writing? How can you allow periods of rest as well as abundance? Jacqueline Suskin explores these ideas and more in this interview. In the intro, thoughts on children's book publishing [Always Take Notes Podcast]; how to market a memoir as an indie author [ALLi]; A […]
Plan For Success In Your Indie Author Business And TikTok Marketing With Adam Beswick
May 27, 2024
How can you plan for success as an indie author even early in your writing career? How can you create multiple streams of income and multiple marketing channels, while still writing your books? Adam Beswick goes into his strategies. In the intro, Kickstarter announces new functionality to help creatives;Watch out for a scam email about […]
Outlining Tips And Video Marketing On YouTube With Jenna Moreci
May 20, 2024
How can you outline a story based on a ‘thought dump' and interweave genre tropes you love to create a successful book? How can you use video marketing to reach more readers, even if you are an introvert? Jenna Moreci gives her tips. In the intro, my new ProWritingAid tutorial; Embracing change and starting over […]
How Writing Work For Hire Books Led To Becoming An Indie Author With Aubre Andrus
May 13, 2024
How can you blend ‘work for hire', ghostwriting, and being an indie author into a successful hybrid career writing books for children? Aubre Andrus gives her tips. In the intro, Countdown Pages on FindawayVoices by Spotify; the impact of AI narrated audiobooks on Audible [Bloomberg]; Ideas for short fiction anthologies and Kevin J. Anderson's Kickstarter; […]
Using Tools To Automate Your Author Business with Chelle Honiker
May 06, 2024
How can you use automation and tools to help you streamline your creative and business processes so you can get back to the writing? Chelle Honiker gives some mindset and practical tips. In the intro, IBPA guide to publishing models; We need to talk about independence [Self Publishing Advice article; my podcast episode with Orna […]
Human-Centered Book Marketing With Dan Blank
Apr 29, 2024
How can you connect to readers in a way that is sustainable for you and effective at selling books? How can you choose the best platform when there are so many options? Dan Blank gives his recommendations. In the intro, TikTok ban signed into law in the USA [The Verge]; No One Buys Books [Elle Griffin]; […]
The Midlist Indie Author With T. Thorn Coyle
Apr 22, 2024
How can you build a creative, sustainable career as a ‘mid-list' indie author? How can you design a business that works for you and your books over the long term? T. Thorn Coyle explains more in this episode. In the intro, BookVault bespoke printing options; Harper Collins partners with Eleven Labs for AI-narrated non-English audiobooks […]
Generative AI Impact On Creativity And Business In the Music Industry With Tristra Newyear Yeager
Apr 15, 2024
What can authors learn from the adoption of AI into the music industry? What are some of the ways musicians are making money in the fractured creator economy? Tristra Newyear Yeager gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, Draft2Digital announced a retail distribution agreement with Fable [D2D]; Kobo launches a new color e-reader […]
Facing Fears In Writing And Life With Rachael Herron
Apr 08, 2024
How can you overcome your fears and make a life change towards your dreams? Or tackle the fears that stop you from writing and publishing your book? Rachael Herron talks about creating despite the fear, and getting unstuck in this interview. In the intro, Blackberry movie and IP questions; The Copyright Handbook by Steven Fishman; […]
Different Ways To Market Your Book With Joanna Penn
Apr 01, 2024
There are many options for book marketing, so how do you choose the right ones for you? I give my thoughts on the different polarities on the marketing scale to help you figure out what might work for your book, your stage on the author journey, and your lifestyle. In the intro, Storybundle for writers; […]
Tips For Selling And Marketing Direct Using Meta Ads With Matthew J Holmes
Mar 25, 2024
What mindset shift do you need if you want to sell direct? How can you use Meta and AI tools to amplify your marketing? Matt Holmes gives his tips as well as insights from running my ads for my store, JFPennBooks.com. In the intro, how to sell more books at live events [BookBub]; Future of […]
Insights On The Enneagram And Sustain Your Author Career With Claire Taylor
Mar 18, 2024
How can you use insights from the Enneagram to help you with a sustainable author career? How can you get past your blocks and move towards success, whatever that means for you? Claire Taylor provides her insights. In the intro, will TikTok be banned in the USA, and how will this impact authors and publishing? […]
Dealing With Change And How To Build Resilience As An Author With Becca Syme
Mar 11, 2024
There are more options for publishing and reaching readers than ever before, and the indie author business models are splintering and diverging, so how do we know which path to follow? How do we deal with the changes due to generative AI, and how do we manage the grief and anxiety about these shifts? Becca […]
How To Create Beautiful Print Books And Sell Direct With Alex Smith From Bookvault
Mar 04, 2024
How can you create more beautiful print books — and make more money with your products by selling direct? Alex Smith explains how BookVault can help with various options as well as helpful resources. In the intro, audiobooks and AI [Frankfurt Bookmesse]; Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds by Joanna Penn; Google's woke AI Gemini […]
Tips On Writing Memoir With J.F. Penn
Feb 26, 2024
How can you write a memoir that is emotionally honest and revealing enough for readers to care, and cope with the inevitable fear of judgment that evokes? How can you write about real places and people in memoir? Why is editing a memoir so challenging and what should you keep in mind around publishing and […]
The Hard Joy Of Writing With Sharon Fagan McDermott and M.C. Benner Dixon
Feb 19, 2024
How can we focus on the joy of the writing process itself, rather than the outcome? How can we embrace the positive side of being jealous of the success of other writers? How can we deepen our writing with metaphor and sense of place? Co-authors of writing book, Millions of Suns, Sharon and Christine share […]
Writing And Producing A Micro-Budget Film With Jeffrey Crane Graham
Feb 12, 2024
How can you pick yourself, rather than wait for someone else to pick you? How can you take control of your independent career and bring your creative vision to life? Jeffrey Crane Graham talks about his experience as an indie filmmaker, with lots of tips for indie authors. In the intro, 6 Types of Submission […]
Your Author Brand With Isabelle Knight
Feb 05, 2024
How do you find the story behind all your stories? Who are you at the heart of your books? Isabelle Knight talks about the importance of author brand in an age of limitless content, and gives tips on how to discover yours. In the intro, 20 new miniature books added to Queen Mary’s Dollhouse [BBC]; […]
How To Be Successful On Kickstarter With Paddy Finn
Jan 29, 2024
What are the benefits — and the challenges — of crowdfunding on Kickstarter? How can you fund successfully, as well as make a profit with your campaign? Paddy Finn gives his tips. In the intro, you can find more selling direct resources here; Streaming due for a streamlining [FT]; Authors Guild explores AI licensing deal […]
A Creative Approach To Generative AI In Book Cover Design With James Helps
Jan 26, 2024
I really enjoyed this laid-back discussion around AI tools as part of the creative book cover design process with James Helps from Go On Write. We discuss how generative AI tools can help make more unique and interesting cover designs, and how designers can have a more imaginative time making them. This episode is supported […]
Direct Sales And Merchandising For Authors With Alex Kava
Jan 22, 2024
What are the benefits and challenges of selling direct? How can you use limited edition merchandise to add more value to retailers and make more money on a launch? Alex Kava talks about her author business. In the intro, award-winning Japanese writer, Rie Kudan, used ChatGPT to write parts of her prize-winning novel and judges […]
Facing Fears, And Writing Unique Characters With Barbara Nickless
Jan 15, 2024
How can we move past our fears to write the books that mean the most to us? How can we write unique and compelling characters that keep readers coming back for more in a series? Barbara Nickless talks about mindset and writing craft in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Planning for a Creative 2024 […]
The Next Strategic Step On Your Author Journey And Author Nation With Joe Solari
Jan 08, 2024
Wherever you are on the author journey, there are some important questions to consider along the way. Joe Solari outlines a strategic step forward for new authors, midlist indies, and those with ambitious financial goals. Plus, what is Author Nation? In the intro, Top 10 trends for publishing [Written Word Media]; Indie author predictions for […]
My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn [Updated]
Jan 01, 2024
Happy New Year 2024! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I measure it in years. At the end of each year, I make a photobook, and I publish an article here, which helps keep me […]
Review Of My 2023 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn
Dec 31, 2023
Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. In the intro, 2023 […]
The 15-Year Author Business Pivot With Joanna Penn
Dec 18, 2023
In this episode, I reflect on 15 years of TheCreative Penn, and outline how I will reposition myself for the next 15 years of being an author entrepreneur. In the intro, We used to do that [Seth Godin]; Penguin Random House has acquired Hay House [Publishing Perspectives]; Business for Authors; Your Author Business Plan; OpenAI […]
How Generative AI Search Will Impact Book Discoverability In The Next Decade
Dec 11, 2023
How will changes to the way people search impact book discoverability? What can authors and publishers do to ensure their books are still found in the new form of generative AI search? While it's still early days for this technology, I share my thoughts in this article, with the hope that we can surf the […]
Publishing A Cookery Photo Book With Jane Dixon-Smith
Dec 04, 2023
Do you want to publish an image-heavy book like a cookbook? How can you navigate the challenges of photography, book design, and publishing choices to make the best product possible? Jane Dixon-Smith shares her lessons learned from her first cookbook. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson's predictions about publishing [Daniel Greene]; Craig Mod talks about walking […]
Subscriptions And The Creator Economy With Michael Evans
Nov 27, 2023
How might subscriptions help expand your author business ecosystem? What are some tips on encouraging readers to buy direct? Why is the future looking positive for authors in the creator economy? Michael Evans gives his thoughts. In the intro, marketing for multi-genre authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Same as Ever: Timeless lessons on risk, opportunity, and […]
Starting A Second Career As An Author And Networking Tips With Patrick O’Donnell
Nov 20, 2023
How can you transition into being an author after a long-term career elsewhere? How can you adopt an attitude of service in order to build your network in an authentic manner? Patrick O'Donnell shares his tips. In the intro, Spotify subscribers in the US now have 15 hours of free audiobook listening [The Verge] — […]
The Mindset And Business Of Selling Books Direct With Russell Nohelty
Nov 13, 2023
How can you shift your mindset from catalog sales to selling direct? How can you reframe the direct author business model to take advantage of creative possibilities for different kinds of products and long-term marketing? Russell Nohelty gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, Top 10 tips for indie authors [Clare Lydon]; 10 […]
Pinterest For Book Marketing With Trona Freeman
Nov 06, 2023
How can using Pinterest more like a search engine help you sell more books? What are some of the ways to use Pinterest most effectively for book marketing? Trona Freeman gives her tips. In the intro, KDP announce an Invite-Only KDP Beta for Audiobooks; How to Double Down on Being Human: 5 Ways to Stand […]
Managing Your Author Business Over The Long Term With Tracy Cooper-Posey
Oct 30, 2023
How can you reinvigorate your writing process, breathe life into your backlist, and prepare your author business for the rollercoaster that is publishing? Tracy Cooper-Posey gives her tips. In the intro, Authors Guild results [The Hotsheet]; more Promo Stacks with Written Word Media; Amazon's robot [BBC]; Amazon's generative image AI for products [Venture Beat]; Shutterstock's […]
Stop Trying To Do Everything With Patricia McLinn
Oct 23, 2023
How do you keep up with everything you need to do as your author business grows? How do you decide what to focus on as the industry changes — and you change, too? Patricia McLinn discusses her challenges with a big backlist of books and a mature indie author business. In the intro, Self-publishing's ongoing […]
Writing The Soul Of Place With Linda Lappin
Oct 16, 2023
What is soul of place or genius loci and how can you write it in a more immersive way in your books? How can you discover it closer to home, as well as write real settings more authentically, and invent it for your fiction? Linda Lappin gives some tips in this interview. In the intro, […]
Let Your Dark Horse Run. Writing The Shadow With Joanna Penn
Oct 13, 2023
How can you let your creative dark horse run? What is the Shadow — and why explore your Shadow side? This episode features excerpted chapters from the audiobook of Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, written and narrated by Joanna Penn, available on Kickstarter until 25 October 2023: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shadowbook (link will redirect […]
Writing Faster Without Burning Out With LA Witt
Oct 09, 2023
How can you establish a creative routine that enables you to write the books you want to write without burning out? How can you balance a sustainable work ethic as an author as well as spending time away from the desk. LA Witt talks about her strategies. In the intro, Spotify introduces 15 hours of […]
As much as we try to plan for things, sometimes life happens and we have to adapt to a new situation. Jessie Kwak talks about adapting to life as a freelance writer and author after being injured, and her tips for managing work and energy. In the intro, I mention Accessibility for All, the interview […]
Writing And Publishing A High Quality Photo Book With Jeremy Bassetti
Sep 25, 2023
How can you create a high-quality photo book and publish it on Kickstarter? How do you market a beautiful, high-value book? Jeremy Bassetti talks about his photo book project, Hill of the Skull. In the intro, Slow release book strategies [ALLi]; Seth Godin on how he is using ChatGPT; Consultants using AI worked faster and […]
Lessons Learned from 12 Years as an Author Entrepreneur
Sep 18, 2023
In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 12 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. In the intro, Finding readers [ALLi blog]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. […]
Writing And Producing Audio Drama With Joanne Phillips
Sep 11, 2023
What's the difference between an audio book and an audio drama? What are the steps to write a script and produce it? Joanne Phillips gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon KDP's new AI content guidelines; AI at the heart of what Amazon does [The Verge]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter; 1000 Libraries Kickstarter; Today's show […]
Using AI Images In Your Book Cover Design Process With Damon Freeman
Sep 07, 2023
How can you expand the possibilities of book cover images with AI? What are some of the controversies and how can authors and designers work together with AI tools to create original design? Book cover designer Damon Freeman discusses his views. There are lots of links in the show notes below to specific resources, but […]
Producing Visual, High Quality Books, Thinking Differently, and Kickstarter Lessons With Holger Nils Pohl
Sep 04, 2023
How might thinking differently help you create clarity in our noisy world? How can you produce a high-quality print book — and successfully fund it on Kickstarter? Holger Nils Pohl discusses these things and more. In the intro, Copyright in an age of AI [Self Publishing Advice, Monica Leonelle, Ars Technica, The Verge, The Atlantic; […]
Writing Poetry In The Dark With Stephanie Wytovich
Aug 28, 2023
How can you stop self-censoring your writing and share the deepest aspects of yourself with your readers? How can you break poetry out of the restraints that many try to put upon it? Stephanie Wytovich talks about these things and more. In the intro, 5 trends that are shifting the future of publishing with Monica […]
Build A Successful Author Business For The Long Term With Joe Solari
Aug 21, 2023
How can you build an author business for the long term, and not just for the launch of one book? How do you ensure secure cash flow and profits, instead of focusing on short-term spike sales? Joe Solari discusses key aspects of your author business. In the intro, Kobo Plus expands to audiobooks in Australia […]
Publishing Books For Children And Profitable School Visits With Tonya Ellis
Aug 14, 2023
How can you create a book series that children love — and that you can expand into multiple streams of income? How can you offer a fantastic experience to schools — and get paid well for your time? Tonya Duncan Ellis gives her tips. In the intro, investment firm KKR will buy Simon & Schuster […]
How AI Tools Are Useful For Writers With Disabilities And Health Issues With S.J. Pajonas
Aug 10, 2023
How can AI tools help authors who struggle with energy and time because of disability, chronic pain, health conditions, post-viral fatigue, or other unavoidable life issues? Steph Pajonas explains why AI is important for accessibility and more. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think […]
The Marketing Mind Shift And The Power Of Ad Stacking With Ricci Wolman
Aug 07, 2023
How can you shift your mindset in order to reach more readers with your books? How can you leverage the tools available for authors to sell more copies? Ricci Wolman from Written Word Media gives her tips. In the intro, The Hotsheet useful newsletter; Book publishing is broken; In the US, the Federal Trade Commission […]
Writing Fast, Collaboration, And Author Mindset With Daniel Willcocks
Jul 31, 2023
How can you write fast but also make your creative process sustainable for the long term? How can you collaborate effectively with other authors in your genre? Dan Willcocks talks about his creative and business approach. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires SelfPubBookCovers; Different types of creative energy [Self Publishing Advice]; Twitter becomes X [The Verge]; […]
Writing From Your Shadow Side With Michaelbrent Collings
Jul 24, 2023
How can you use what you're scared of to write better stories that resonate with readers? How can you acknowledge your shadow side and bring aspects of it into the light in a healthy way that serves you and your customers? Michaelbrent Collings talks about his experiences — and you can do my Shadow Survey […]
Your Publishing Options With Rachael Herron
Jul 17, 2023
What are the pros and cons of traditional publishing vs self-publishing? How can you combine multiple options for a more creatively satisfying — and profitable — author career? Rachael Herron gives her tips. In the intro, Power Thesaurus and editing tips for audio; How Writers Fail — Kris Rusch; Finishing energy; Sidekick for Shopify; Shadow […]
Writing Tips From The Movies With John Gaspard
Jul 10, 2023
How can you exploit the unique in your stories, as well as amp up the conflict? John Gaspard gives writing and creative business tips based on movies and TV. In the intro, Meta launches Threads, the new Twitter-like app — you can follow me @jfpennauthor; Possible Podcast episode with Ethan Mollick; Moonshots and Mindsets podcast […]
9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence (AI) Will Disrupt Authors And The Publishing Industry. An Update With Joanna Penn And Nick Thacker
Jul 03, 2023
Four years ago, in July 2019, I put out a podcast episode that went through the 9 disruptions I saw coming for authors and publishing in the next decade. It turns out that most are happening faster than even I expected. In this episode, Nick Thacker and I discuss some of the main points. In […]
Using Sudowrite For Writing Fiction With Amit Gupta
Jun 29, 2023
How can fiction authors use Sudowrite to assist with writing tasks they need help with? What functionality does Sudowrite have that will be useful to different types of writers? Amit Gupta gives his tips in this interview. I use and recommend Sudowrite as part of my creative process. You can try Sudowrite through my affiliate […]
The Craft And Business Of Writing Non-Fiction Books With Stephanie Chandler
Jun 26, 2023
How can you stand out in a crowded market of non-fiction books? How can you build a business around your central topic? How can you deal with failure to move on to success? Stephanie Chandler shares her experience and tips. In the intro, HarperCollins and KKR make bids for Simon & Schuster [The Hotsheet]; more […]
How Authors Can Use Bookfunnel To Reach Readers And Sell Direct With Damon Courtney
Jun 18, 2023
How can Bookfunnel help authors reach more readers, sell more books, and sell direct? Damon Courtney outlines features of Bookfunnel that you might not know about. In the intro, Hello Books and Written Word Media have joined forces for promo stacking; Call to Action (CTA) tips [ALLi]; my free Author Blueprint; Bundle for writers [Storybundle]. […]
Novel Marketing And Christian Publishing With Thomas Umstattd Jr.
Jun 12, 2023
What are some of the most effective ways to market your book? What strategies have remained the same despite the rise of new tactics? What are the best ways to reach a Christian audience? Thomas Umstattd Jr. gives plenty of tips in this interview. In the intro, Freedom, fame, or fortune — what do you […]
Writing Your Transcendent Change: Memoir With Marion Roach Smith
Jun 05, 2023
Memoir can be one of the most challenging forms to write, but it can also be the most rewarding. Marion Roach Smith talks about facing your fears, as well as giving practical tips on structuring and writing your memoir. In the intro, Amazon's category changes [KDP Help; Kindlepreneur; Publisher Rocket]; Book description generation with AI; […]
Crafting Your Novel’s Key Moments With John Matthew Fox
May 29, 2023
What are the crucial linchpin moments in your novel and how can you keep a reader turning the pages? John Fox gives fiction writing tips in this interview. In the intro, writing and publishing across multiple genres [Ask ALLi]; Pilgrimage and solo walking [Women Who Walk]; My live webinars on using AI tools as an […]
Writing Novels Inspired By Place With Tony Park
May 22, 2023
How can we write about places that inspire us in an authentic way even when they are not our own country? Tony Park gives his tips for writing setting, and also outlines how his publishing experience has changed over the last two decades. In the intro, KDP printing costs are changing from 20 June; plus, […]
Making Art From Life. Mental Health For Writers With Toby Neal
May 15, 2023
What are some of the common mental health issues that writers face? How can we use writing to help us process our problems, and turn our life into art through our books? Author and mental health therapist Toby Neal shares her thoughts and tips. It's Mental Health Awareness Week here in the UK with a […]
Intentionality, Beauty, and Authorship. Co-Writing With AI With Stephen Marche
May 12, 2023
AI tools can generate words, but the human intention behind it, as well as the skill of the author, drives the machine. Stephen Marche talks about the creative process behind Death of an Author, 95% written by AI, out now from Pushkin Industries. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain […]
Generative AI And The Indie Author Community With Michael Anderle And Dan Wood
May 07, 2023
What are the implications of generative AI for the indie author community? How can we make choices for our own creative business while respecting the decisions of others? Dan Wood (Draft2Digital) and Michael Anderle (20BooksTo50K, LMBPN) and I discuss our recommendations for the way forward. In the intro, Ingram Spark offers free title setup and […]
The AI-Assisted Artisan Author With Joanna Penn
May 05, 2023
What is the AI-Assisted Artisan Author? How can we use AI tools in our creative and business processes while still keeping our humanity at the core of our books? As generative AI development continues apace and new possibilities emerge every week, the focus of AI discussions in the author community has been centered around productivity […]
Excellent Advice For Living With Kevin Kelly
May 01, 2023
How can we build a creative life based on following our curiosity? What are some important attitudes to hold that will help us with a sustainable life and career? Kevin Kelly shares some Excellent Advice for Living. In the intro, author newsletter tips [BookBub]; Mark Dawson's 20+ year writing journey; Thoughts on 20Books Seville and […]
Book Marketing: How To Get Publicity For Your Book With Halima Khatun
Apr 24, 2023
How can publicity form part of your book marketing strategy? How can you research the best media and craft a pitch or a press release that might get you and your book some attention? Why is publicity still useful in an age of pay-per-click direct advertising? Halima Khatun shares her valuable tips and experience. In […]
The Challenges Of Small Press Publishing With Jon Barton
Apr 17, 2023
What are the most important aspects of becoming a successful publisher? Jon Barton talks about his lessons learned and how to avoid the pitfalls. In the intro, Amazon AWS Bedrock for generative AI; Impromptu: Amplifying our Humanity Through AI by Reid Hoffman and co-written with GPT4; reflections on the fantastic 20BooksSpain Seville conference; Ideas and […]
How To Use ProWritingAid To Improve Your Writing With Chris Banks
Apr 14, 2023
You cannot see many of the problems with your own writing, as you are so close to the manuscript. ProWritingAid can help you self-edit your work before you take it on to a human editor, so they can focus on the bigger issues. In this episode, Chris Banks, the CEO of ProWritingAid talks about how […]
Writing Nature Memoir With Merryn Glover
Apr 10, 2023
How can we bring a place alive in our writing? How can we tackle the challenges of writing different types of books at different times in our writing career? Merryn Glover talks about her experience in this episode. In the intro, Kobo launches Kobo Plus in the US and UK; Amazon is closing Book Depository; […]
Legal Aspects Of Generative AI And Copyright With Kathryn Goldman
Apr 02, 2023
As generative AI tools continue to expand the possibilities for creators, what does this mean for aspects of copyright? Intellectual property lawyer, Kathryn Goldman, talks about the possible ramifications. In the intro, Ben's Bites newsletter, Microsoft Co-Pilot for Office tools [The Verge]; Canva Create AI-powered design tools; Adobe Firefly for generative images; OpenAI ChatGPT Plugins […]
Lessons Learned And Tips From Pilgrimage, My First Kickstarter Campaign
Mar 27, 2023
My Kickstarter campaign for my travel memoir, Pilgrimage, funded within minutes and raised over £26,000 (over US$31,000) for a niche book in a new market. In this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips for a successful campaign. In the intro, I mention the 6 Figure Author Podcast, The Writers Well Podcast, and Reid […]
Prolific Writing, Diversification, And Using Emerging Technologies With Joseph Nassise
Mar 20, 2023
If you want a long-term successful career as an author, you need to learn the craft and the business of writing. Joseph Nassise talks about his writing process, how he diversifies his business across different publishers, different products, and different technologies, as well as how he is embracing new options for his books. In the […]
Writing Fiction With Sudowrite With Leanne Leeds
Mar 17, 2023
We all use tools to help us improve our skills, and in this episode, Leanne Leeds explains how she uses the generative AI tool, Sudowrite, to write better books and serve her readership more effectively. In the intro, OpenAI launches GPT4, and how it can be used for accessibility with Be My Eyes. Other tools […]
Content For Everyone: Accessibility For Authors With Jeff Adams
Mar 13, 2023
Writers and readers are a diverse bunch, and we all want to do our best to make sure our content is accessible to all. But how do we do that when it seems like a huge (and time-consuming) challenge for an individual creator? Jeff Adams gives some tips for getting started. In the intro, making […]
Writing And Investing For A Long Term Indie Author Career With Lindsay Buroker
Mar 06, 2023
What are the core fundamentals of a successful independent author business? How can you focus on writing, as well as sell more books, and stay healthy? Prolific fantasy author Lindsay Buroker shares her tips. In the intro, YouTube gets into audio-only podcasts; Seth Godin's book marketing for The Song of Significance; How to make more […]
How To Build A Seven Figure Book Business Selling Direct To Readers With Pierre Jeanty
Feb 27, 2023
Write and publish what you want, get paid every day for your books, and control your customer data and relationships. It's possible if you sell direct, as Pierre Jeanty talks about in this interview. In the intro, the author income survey [ALLi]; publishing clauses to avoid [Writer Unboxed; Writer Beware]; copyright registration for AI-assisted comic […]
The Tsunami Of Crap, Misinformation, And Responsible Use Of AI With Tim Boucher
Feb 24, 2023
After many years of people saying, “AI can never be creative, AI could never write fiction (i.e. make things up), it's now evident that the generative AI tools make a lot up — and we need to be aware of the potential ramifications. How can we use the tools to achieve our creative purpose in […]
Co-Writing In A Shared Universe And Changing Indie Business Models With Martha Carr
Feb 20, 2023
How can you create a universe big enough for multiple series? How can you co-write successfully? How can you pivot your business model to achieve your creative, financial, and lifestyle goals? Martha Carr talks about these things and more. In the intro, Simon & Schuster is back up for sale [Reuters, Episode 662 with Jane […]
Book Marketing Mindset, Ideas, And Ambition With Honoree Corder
Feb 13, 2023
How can you embrace book marketing as a creative part of your author business? How can you effectively market your backlist over time? How can you tap into ambition and drive your author business onward and upward? Honoree Corder talks about all this and more. In the intro, Draft2Digital add a new library marketplace [D2D]; […]
Writing Choctaw Characters And Diversity In Fiction With Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer
Feb 06, 2023
Who are the Choctaw people and how can authors write authentic Native Americans in their books? How can we research diverse characters and include a diverse cast without worrying about cancel culture? Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer talks about how her Choctaw heritage influences her books. In the intro, the Pilgrimage Kickstarter is done — thanks to […]
The Empowerment Of Selling Books Direct To Your Readers With Steve Pieper
Jan 30, 2023
What are the benefits of selling direct? Why might using your face to advertise your books be a good idea? What might be the future of selling direct? Steve Pieper talks about these things and more. In the intro, ACX lowering audiobook prices, Chokepoint Capitalism, Audiblegate, Copyright valuation [Dean Wesley Smith]; courses on copyright; Happy […]
Writing Travel Memoir, Fear Of Judgment, Fear Of Failure, And Journaling With J.F. Penn
Jan 28, 2023
What do you need to consider when writing travel memoir? How fear of judgment and fear of failure are real issues even for established authors, and more in these selected excerpts from interviews with J.F. Penn around Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. In this episode, I talk about: I have a […]
The Importance Of Confident Creative Direction, Voice, And Taste, In Generative AI Art With Oliver Altair
Jan 26, 2023
How can you use AI tools to ethically and responsibly create in whatever sphere you love? What are some of the tools and why are creative direction, voice, and taste, so important? I discuss these issues and more in a solo introduction and an interview with Oliver Altair. In the first 28 mins of the […]
Multi-Six Figure Book Sales And The Power Of Daily Habits With Marc Reklau
Jan 23, 2023
How can small, daily habits make you more successful as an author? How can you use the 80/20 rule in your author business? How can you create multiple streams of income when you sell mostly print? Marc Reklau shares his tips in the interview. In the intro, my Kickstarter for Pilgrimage is live!; Spotify's promotion […]
Intuitive Writing And Book Marketing With Becca Syme
Jan 16, 2023
Do you sometimes just ‘know' when a story is right? Does something ‘click' during the writing process and suddenly things make sense? Do you lean into your curiosity and emotion when it comes to writing and marketing? If yes, you might be an intuitive writer, as Becca Syme explains in this interview. In the intro, […]
How To (Finally) Finish Your Book With Roz Morris
Jan 09, 2023
What are the most common reasons why writers don't finish their books —and how can you overcome them in order to finish yours this year? Roz Morris gives practical writing and mindset tips. In the intro, Spotify promo codes [FindawayVoices]; Rachael Herron's money episode [How Do You Write?]; Changes at Amazon [Kris Writes, BBC]; AI […]
How To Use Paid Advertising As Part Of Your Book Marketing With Mark Dawson
Jan 06, 2023
How can you use paid advertising as part of your book marketing strategy? How can you reach more readers and sell more books in the year ahead? Mark Dawson provides strategies and tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing trends for 2023 [Written Word Media]; Apple AI narration; ChatGPT into Bing [The Verge]; Comments […]
My 2023 Creative and Business Goals With Joanna Penn
Jan 01, 2023
Happy New Year 2023! I am more excited than ever this year about the books I want to write and publish. I've had a difficult few years (haven't we all?!) but now I'm ready to create at full throttle in 2023, aided by the incredible AI-powered tools emerging for writers. Here's an overview of my […]
Review Of My 2022 Creative Business Goals
Dec 30, 2022
Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals, and leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? You can read my 2022 goals here and I reflect on what I […]
What Do You Need To Quit? With Joanna Penn And Orna Ross
Dec 26, 2022
“If you just keep writing/querying/marketing/etc you will eventually be successful. Just don't give up.” We've all heard a variation of this, but what if it isn't true? When is quitting worthwhile? Joanna Penn and Orna Ross discuss Quit: The Power of Knowing When To Walk Away by Annie Duke and give examples of what they […]
Changes In Publishing With Jane Friedman
Dec 19, 2022
What has changed in the publishing industry over the last few years? What can authors learn from the DOJ vs PRH court case? How can mid-list authors thrive in uncertain times? Jane Friedman talks about these things and more. In the intro, USA Today list is on indefinite hiatus [US News]; Paid for bestseller list; […]
Choosing Your Route To Publication With Barnaby Jameson
Dec 12, 2022
Why might a first-time author choose to independently publish? Barnaby Jameson talks about his experience with his first historical novel, and why valuing intellectual property is critical for authors to understand. Plus tips for self-publishing and marketing. In the intro, Draft2Digital distributing to Smashwords store [D2D], expansion of Google Play Books auto-narration into more countries, […]
Co-writing Fiction With Generative AI With Charlene Putney
Dec 09, 2022
How can authors use generative AI as a co-writing tool? How can creatives approach AI possibilities with curiosity rather than fear? Charlene Putney talks about writing with LAIKA. In the intro, ChatGPT, thoughts on the GitHub Co-Pilot case [WIRED]; and why digital abundance is an opportunity for curious creatives, not a threat. I also mention […]
Pivoting Genres And Mindset Tips For Success With Dan Padavona
Dec 05, 2022
If you're not making the money you expected from your books, how can you pivot genres in order to write what you enjoy AND make a living? How can you change your mindset to one of creative abundance and productivity? Dan Padavona talks about these topics and more. In the intro, publishing year in review […]
Writing Tips: The Anatomy Of Genres With John Truby
Nov 28, 2022
What is genre, and how can transcending it improve your fiction? How can you effectively write cross genre? John Truby gives an overview of the Anatomy of Genres. In the intro, the PRH acquisition of S&S is over [The Guardian]; Amazon Advertising Everywhere [Vox]; Spotify expands audiobooks to more markets [TechCrunch]; Plus, 20BooksVegas recordings; Machines […]
How can we shift our mindset to thinking about a long-term creative career? What can we do now that will make our future selves happy? Dorie Clark gives some ideas for playing the long game. In the intro, sell books directly on TikTok Shop [The Guardian]; Plan for author success in 2023 [K-lytics webinar, 1 […]
Using Generative AI For Digital Collectibles And NFTs With J. Thorn
Nov 18, 2022
How can generative AI tools augment and amplify your creativity? How can digital originals/collectibles (NFTs) add value to authors and readers? In the intro, my solo episode on Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash: NFTs for Authors (also in video); Midjourney v4 [Ars Technica]; Deviant Art launches their own generative AI tool [Engadget]; Rumors of GPT-4 […]
5 Steps To Author Success With Rachel McLean
Nov 14, 2022
How can you find the intersection between what the market wants and what you love to read? How can you strategically seed book sales to improve your marketing? Rachel McLean talks about her 5 steps to indie author success. In the intro, how to predict and profit from publishing trends [ALLi blog]; my live, in-person […]
Self-Publishing LaunchPad With James Blatch
Nov 09, 2022
What are some of the fundamentals behind self-publishing success? James Blatch shares tips and insights. James Blatch is a historical military thriller author. He’s also the co-founder of Self-Publishing Formula, Fuse Books, Hello Books, and the co-host of The Self-Publishing Show. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are […]
Writing And Marketing Diverse Books For Children With Ada-Ari
Nov 07, 2022
How can you create an ecosystem of children's books around a central idea? How can you market books for children? Ada-Ari talks about how she writes, publishes and markets her children's books based on African folk tales and African languages in the USA. In the intro, Court blocks the PRH S&S merger [PublishersWeekly]; Spoken Word […]
Using Tropes To Strengthen Your Fiction With Jennifer Hilt
Oct 31, 2022
What are tropes and how can you use them to strengthen your fiction? What are some examples of horror tropes, in particular? With Jennifer Hilt. In the intro, Why book sales are down and what to do about it [6 Figure Authors]; Undisruptible: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention for Individuals, Organisations, and Life by Aidan […]
What do you need in the beginning of your novel so your reader buys your book? Shane Millar shares tips for writing brilliant beginnings, regardless of your genre. In the intro, trends in what publishers want at Frankfurt Book Fair [Publishing Perspectives] Adobe incorporating AI-generation alongside a Content Authenticity Initiative [Adobe blog]; Bertelsmann-owned venture capital […]
How Creativity Rules the World With Maria Brito
Oct 17, 2022
How does curiosity fuel creativity? How can we balance consumption and creation in an ever-busier digital life? How can you break out of the myth of the ‘starving artist'? Maria Brito talks about How Creativity Rules the World. In the intro, insights into Colleen Hoover's popularity [NY Times]; Amazon bugs [Kindlepreneur]; Ingram invests in Book.io […]
Using AI For Art, Images, And Book Covers With Derek Murphy
Oct 13, 2022
Generative art tools like DALL-E, Midjourney, and Stable Diffusion are taking AI art into the mainstream. What are the opportunities for authors? What are the problems and controversies to be aware of? I talk about these issues and more with Derek Murphy. In the intro, I mention my J.F. Penn NFTs with AI-generated art based […]
The Way Of The Fearless Writer With Beth Kempton
Oct 10, 2022
How can we accept imperfection as writers while still striving for excellence? How can we make space for going deeper into our writing while managing a busy life? Beth Kempton talks about The Way of the Fearless Writer in this wide-ranging interview on the creative mindset. In the intro, when life throws a curveball and […]
Different Traditional Publishing Experiences With Georgina Cross
Oct 03, 2022
Traditional publishing is not a monolithic thing. There are different kinds of publishers, and authors want different things out of a publishing deal and relationship. Georgina Cross talks about her experience with two different traditional publishers and the pros and cons of each. In the intro, new e-reading devices, Kobo Clara 2E and Kindle Scribe; […]
Writing Tips: Outlining/Plotting Vs Discovery Writing/Pantsing
Sep 30, 2022
Every fiction author will (eventually) find their own method for writing but all fall somewhere on the spectrum between outlining/plotting and discovery writing/pantsing/writing into the dark. In this excerpt from How To Write a Novel, I share two chapters on the topic from the audiobook, narrated by me (Joanna Penn). You can listen above or […]
Transmedia And Publishing Comics And Graphic Novels With Barry Nugent
Sep 26, 2022
How can you adapt your novel into a comic or graphic form? What are the different types? How does a creative career develop over the long term and when do you need to take a step back to consider how to move forward? Barry Nugent talks about all this and more. In the intro, Amazon […]
Lessons Learned From 11 Years As An Author Entrepreneur
Aug 29, 2022
In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 11 years as a full-time author entrepreneur, and why I am (finally) taking some time off. In the intro, Soldiers of God short story, The Creator Economy for Authors course (use coupon SUMMER22 for 30% off), Science Fiction Writing online conference, Author Tech Summit; […]
Estate Planning For Authors With Michael La Ronn
Aug 22, 2022
How can you make sure your heirs and successors are able to manage your books and copyright licensing after your death? What aspects do you need to think about in terms of your author estate? Michael La Ronn explains this important topic in clear terms. In the intro, more quotes from the DOJ vs PRH […]
Auto-Narrated Audiobooks With Ryan Dingler From Google Play Books
Aug 19, 2022
What is auto-narration of audiobooks and how can it benefit authors and rights-holders as well as listeners? What are some of the common objections to auto-narration and how can we keep a positive attitude to embracing change? Ryan Dingler from Google Play Books goes into detail on these questions and more. You can also listen […]
How can you intensify the conflict in your books to hook readers? How can you introduce different types and layers of conflict to improve your story? Becca Puglisi explains why and how to write conflict. In the intro, thoughts on the DOJ vs PRH trial [Twitter @JohnHMaher] and Publishers Weekly round-up; my thoughts on subscription […]
Selling Books Direct With Shopify: The Minimum Viable Store
Aug 12, 2022
In July 2022, I launched my online shop at www.CreativePennBooks.com. It’s built on Shopify’s eCommerce platform, and in this solo episode, I’ll explain why I built the store, my lessons learned, tips if you want to build your own, and how I intend to expand it over time. This episode is sponsored by my wonderful […]
Selling Books Direct On Shopify With Morgana Best
Aug 08, 2022
Selling your books direct to readers and listeners can bring you more money, faster, and allow you to control your customer's experience and data. Morgana Best explains why selling direct is so important for an author business, and some of her tips for implementing a Shopify store. In the intro, the publishing court case of […]
Lessons Learned From 3 Years As A Full-Time Author with Sacha Black
Aug 01, 2022
What do you need to consider if you want to go full time as an author entrepreneur? What challenges might you face in your first few years? Sacha Black shared her lessons learned from 3 years full-time. In the intro, PRH and S&S merger heads to trial [Publishers Weekly]; Pilgrimage episodes on my Books and […]
Blockchain For Copyright And Intellectual Property With Roanie Levy
Jul 29, 2022
How will blockchain technology change the way creatives register copyright, as well as monetize their work? Roanie Levy explains how blockchain can solve the attribution problem, and how smart contracts will allow new business models with ownership of digital assets in web 3. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a […]
Writing A Bestseller With A.G. Riddle
Jul 25, 2022
How can you lean into your strengths as a writer to find the genre — and the business model — that suits you best? A.G. Riddle talks about his writing process, his publishing choices, and how he's planning to pivot into the next phase of his career. In the intro, I talk about my experience […]
Reach: Create The Biggest Audience For Your Book With Becky Robinson
Jul 18, 2022
Tools and tactics may change, but the principles of book marketing remain the same whatever the situation. Becky Robinson gives advice on how to reach readers and market your books for the long term. In the intro, The Things You Think Matter — Don’t [Ryan Holiday]; Boost Your Backlist [ALLi]; Craving Independence [The Bookseller]; 21st […]
Writing A Novel Will Change Your Life. Audiobook Introduction Of How To Write A Novel.
Jul 15, 2022
How To Write a Novel: From Idea to Book is out now if you buy direct from my store, www.CreativePennBooks.com for ebook, audiobook, paperback, or workbook editions. It will be out everywhere on your favorite store in your preferred format from 13 August 2022. More details and links here. In today's special inbetweenisode, I share […]
Writing For The Long-Term With Tess Gerritsen
Jul 11, 2022
How can you write a series which keeps your readers engaged, while still keeping your creative spark alive? How can you sustain a writing career for the long term? With Tess Gerritsen. In the intro, The Creator Economy report [The Tilt]; Publisher Rocket tutorial. Today's show is sponsored by IngramSpark, who I use to print […]
Publishing Special Print Editions And Crowdfunding with John Bond and Chris Wold from White Fox
Jul 08, 2022
Print on demand makes it easy to sell print books without the hassle of storage and shipping — but it's limited to what the established POD printers allow. What if you want to do a special print run, either for a crowdfunding project, or because you want higher quality print production with extras? White Fox […]
Different Kinds Of Editing, And How To Find An Editor With Kristen Tate
Jul 04, 2022
What are the different types of editing? How can you find and work effectively with the best editor for your book? What are some editing tips to watch out for in your fiction or non-fiction manuscript? With Kristen Tate from The Blue Garret. In the intro, hiring virtual assistants [ALLi]; and I'm recording my audiobook […]
Writing Twists And Marketing As A Traditionally Published Author With Clare Mackintosh
Jun 27, 2022
How can you write twists that surprise a reader? How can you market your books effectively as a traditionally published author? Clare Mackintosh talks about her creative process, and how she works with her publisher to reach more readers. In the intro, Kate Bush is “the world’s biggest independent artist” right now and more on […]
Writing With Artificial Intelligence With Andrew Mayne
Jun 24, 2022
What is GPT-3 and how can writers use it responsibly as part of their creative process? How can we approach AI tools with curiosity, rather than fear? Thriller author Andrew Mayne talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, I mention the discussion about whether Google’s language model, LaMDA, could be sentient [The Verge]; […]
Selling Books Direct on Shopify with Katie Cross
Jun 20, 2022
How can you sell books direct to your readers for all formats without dealing with the pain of shipping print books? How can you automate sales with email? How can you earn 80-90% of the sales price and have it go into your bank account in days or even hours, instead of months? Katie Cross […]
Kickstarter And Multiple Streams Of Non-Fiction Income With Bryan Cohen
Jun 13, 2022
How can you manage a successful Kickstarter campaign without burning out? How can you expand into multiple streams of income? Bryan Cohen talks about crowdfunding, changes in his business model, and more. In the intro, 10th year of double-digit audiobook growth [Publishing Perspectives]; Spotify's plans for audiobook expansion [Spotify]; Free webinars for audiobook month [FindawayVoices]; […]
How To Get Your Self-Published Book Into Libraries With Eric Otis Simmons
Jun 06, 2022
How can you make your self-published books available to libraries in every format? How can you pitch librarians so they are interested in ordering your books? Eric Otis Simmons explains how he successfully pitches and sells to libraries throughout the USA. In the intro, Books2Read is useful for sharing wide links; Lindsay Buroker gives long […]
Build Your Email List With Reader Magnets With Tammi Labrecque
May 30, 2022
Why do you need an email list when you can just reach readers with social media? How can you use reader magnets to build your email list? Tammi Labrecque gives beginner and advanced tips for book marketing. In the intro, The state of the Creator Economy report from ConvertKit; and I use and recommend ConvertKit […]
How do we decide on the hero for our story? How can we write distinctive — but still believable — characters? Matt Bird talks about aspects of writing character. In the intro, a guide to UBLs, Universal Book Links [Draft2Digital]; Your author brand [Ask ALLi with me and Orna Ross]; The Creator Economy in Bath. […]
An Update On AI-Narrated Audiobooks [May 2022]
May 20, 2022
I've been talking about AI narration for several years now, but it's just starting to go mainstream and I've been getting emails every day recently asking the same questions, so this is a round-up article with the most important information. For context, I am an audiobook narrator. I narrate my own non-fiction and short stories. […]
Writing, Independence, And Selling Books Direct With Derek Sivers
May 16, 2022
Why is writing so important? How can we pursue true independence as authors? How can we stay open to technological change while still focusing on the fundamentals of craft? Derek Sivers talks about these things and more. In the intro, How to know if you are putting too much pressure on yourself [Holly Worton]; Breaking […]
Financial And Tax Implications Of NFTs With Joe David, Crypto Accountant
May 13, 2022
If you want to create, sell, buy, or trade NFTs, you need to understand the financial and tax implications. In this interview, Joe David explains the important aspects of blockchain assets and cryptocurrency. [Disclaimer: This is not financial or legal advice. This is just a conversation based on our interest and experience. Please consult a […]
Writing A Successful Crime Thriller Series With Angela Marsons
May 09, 2022
In this inspirational interview, crime writer Angela Marsons talks about how she overcame years of rejection and broke out of societal expectations to reach writing and publishing success. She also talks about tips for writing a long-running crime series, and how she weaves her home of the Black Country into her stories. In the intro, […]
Tiny Business, Big Money With Elaine Pofeldt
May 02, 2022
How can you make more money without growing the size of your business? What systems and mindset do you need to focus on in order to leverage your limited time? Elaine Pofeldt talks about Tiny Business, Big Money in this interview. In the intro, Google Play Books opens up their AI narration for audiobooks; thoughts […]
7 Figure Fiction With Theodora Taylor
Apr 25, 2022
How can you hook readers into your story by using universal human desires and motivations? How can you write what you love, run your author business your way, and still maintain the ambition for a 7-figure author business? Theodora Taylor gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, self-publishing predictions for the 2020s [ALLi]; […]
Creating A Fictional World In Web 3 With Rae Wojcik and Stephen Poynter
Apr 22, 2022
Why are digital scarcity and ownership so important to the business model of creators in web 3? How can an author use a wider fictional world for creative and business goals? Rae and Stephen talk about why creators need web 3 and their fantasy universe, SitkaWorld. In the intro, I mention the Creatokia podcast with […]
From Big Idea To Book With Jessie Kwak
Apr 18, 2022
How can you turn one idea into a short story or expand it into a novel? How can you find a writing process that brings you joy for the long term? Jessie Kwak talks about writing craft tips in this interview. In the intro, I comment on Andy Jassy's letter to shareholders and the importance […]
Creating And Selling Books For Children With Daniel Miller
Apr 11, 2022
How can you write a book that children will love? How can you reach schools and libraries with your books? What might you be leaving on the table in terms of revenue in your author business? Daniel Miller shares his tips, and we also discuss the potential opportunities in his business model. In the intro, […]
Intuitive Editing With Tiffany Yates Martin
Apr 04, 2022
How can you create distance from your manuscript in order to see it as a reader does and edit effectively? What are some of the biggest issues with editing a manuscript? How can you edit on a budget? Tiffany Yates Martin talks all about editing in this interview. In the intro, 10 years of the […]
Kickstarter For Authors With Monica Leonelle
Mar 28, 2022
Would you like to successfully crowdfund your book on Kickstarter? Monica Leonelle shares practical and mindset tips for creating the right kind of project, as well as mistakes to avoid, and how to satisfy fans — and make money with your books. Monica and I recorded this before Brandon Sanderson's epic Kickstarter which has raised […]
The Legal Side Of Intellectual Property, NFTs, and DAOs With Kathryn Goldman
Mar 25, 2022
How can you future-proof your author career by being careful with the publishing clauses you sign? Why are NFTs so interesting for intellectual property? How might DAOs help authors with estate planning? Copyright and trademark attorney Kathryn Goldman talks about these things and more. In the intro, I talk about my art NFTs [JFPenn & […]
Your Story Matters With Nikesh Shukla
Mar 21, 2022
How do we tell the deeper story that matters in a way that engages readers? How can we tackle the inner critic, self-censorship and fear of judgment? And does social media actually sell books? Nikesh Shukla talks about why Your Story Matters and gives his writing tips. In the intro, Amazon opens up Ads to […]
Different Ways Of Publishing Through Substack And NFTs With Elle Griffin
Mar 18, 2022
What if the traditional publishing model is not the best way to publish a book in a digital age? What if publishing it as an ebook on Amazon is not the best way, either? Elle Griffin questions the established ways of publishing a book and explains how she is using SubStack and NFTs for her […]
Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash. NFTs For Authors [Audio] With Joanna Penn
Mar 16, 2022
I've spent the last 15 years building an author business on Web 2 — digital publishing, blogging and podcasting, social media, and more. But as Web 3 begins to emerge through blockchain, NFTs, AI, and the metaverse, I want to make sure I still have a thriving business over the next 15 years. NFTs are an […]
Improve Your Creativity With Dan Holloway
Mar 14, 2022
How can we improve our creativity and release our self-censorship to write more freely? Dan Holloway talks about aspects of creativity as well as physical challenges, neurodiversity, and how technology might augment us in this interview. In the intro, thoughts on Brandon Sanderson's Kickstarter [Kris Rusch]; Guide to Multiple Streams of Income [Self Publishing Advice]; Thoughts […]
Dealing With Self-Doubt And Writer’s Block With Dharma Kelleher
Mar 07, 2022
How can we overcome self-doubt to write the books we really want to? How can we move past writer's block? How can we reshape our definition of success and return to the joy of writing? Dharma Kelleher talks about the author mindset and more. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson's Kickstarter, Bookstore consolidation [The Guardian]; Amazon […]
Pivoting On The Creative Journey With Johnny B Truant
Feb 28, 2022
The creative journey is often a winding path to success, but our experiences along the way can enrich our writing and help us develop a unique author voice. Johnny B Truant talks about his journey from scientist to non-fiction/self-help, to over 100 books and a TV show based on his novels. In the intro, What […]
Writing Tips: Lessons Learned From Rewriting My First Novel Over A Decade Later
Feb 25, 2022
In January 2022, I re-edited my first novel, Stone of Fire, which I started during NaNoWriMo in 2009 and published in April 2011. In this episode, I explain why and how I re-edited the book, as well as some lessons learned from revisiting my writer self of over a decade ago. This episode includes: Why […]
Tips For Indie Author Success With Craig Martelle
Feb 21, 2022
It's never too late to start writing and there are many pro writers ahead of you on the path lead the way. Craig Martelle shares tips on writing, self-publishing, and book marketing, as well as how he believes in the rising tide that lifts all boats, and how helping each other is the best way […]
Draft2Digital Acquires Smashwords. The Opportunities Ahead For Wide Publishing With Mark Coker And Kevin Tumlinson
Feb 18, 2022
Smashwords was the original distribution service for indie authors and Mark Coker has been an advocate for wide publishing for over 14 years. Draft2Digital has been a fantastic service for indies over the last decade, moving into new markets, providing great tools, and helping authors sell more books. On Feb 8, 2022, Draft2Digital announced they […]
Self-Publishing In Jamaica And The Caribbean And The Importance Of Diverse Voices With C. Ruth Taylor
Feb 14, 2022
The self-publishing movement is just getting started in Jamaica and the Caribbean islands, and authors are discovering they can tell their stories in their own way. C. Ruth Taylor talks about how she became an authorpreneur and why she believes in an indie-first, empowering ecosystem. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires Smashwords [D2D; Mark Coker]; Impact […]
Book Marketing Tips For The Long Term With John Kremer
Feb 07, 2022
John Kremer's 1001 Ways to Market Your Book was the first book I ever bought on marketing way back when I started self-publishing in 2008. He has revised it several times since and is still a prolific content creator around book marketing. I'm thrilled to discuss long-term book marketing for authors in this interview. In […]
The Creative Potential Of NFTs For Authors With J. Thorn And Joanna Penn
Feb 04, 2022
J. Thorn and I are both authors and passionate about helping writers find new ways to create, collaborate, reach fans, and make more money in the Creator Economy. We're also both excited about the creative and financial possibilities of emerging blockchain technology, including NFTs. In this discussion, we cover: Explaining NFTs for non-technical people. Some […]
Episode 600: Thoughts On Writing Craft, Publishing, Marketing, Mindset, And The Author Business With Joanna Penn
Jan 31, 2022
Welcome to episode 600! I’m doing a solo show today, answering some questions from my recent podcast survey that cover the different aspects of the author life. From episode 1 to episode 600 I recorded episode 1 in March 2009 when I lived in Ipswich, just outside Brisbane, Australia. I phoned up a bestselling author […]
Take Back Your Book: An Author’s Guide to Rights Reversion and Publishing on Your Terms With Katlyn Duncan
Jan 24, 2022
How can you take back your rights when publishing conditions change? How can you make sure you sign contracts that make it easier for rights reversion in the future? Katlyn Duncan talks about these things and more. In the intro, the splits in indie publishing [Kris Writes]; Burnout and Writer's Block [6 Figure Authors]; Publisher […]
The Craft And Business Of Poetry With Rishi Dastidar
Jan 17, 2022
How do you turn an idea into a poem? What are the publishing options for poets, and how does marketing work? Rishi Dastidar talks about his life in poetry and provides tips for taking your creative work further. In the intro, What Readers Want in 2022 [ALLi]; Ads for Authors (affiliate link); Submission on AI […]
A Writer’s Guide To The End Of Self-Doubt With William Kenower
Jan 10, 2022
How can we recognize self-doubt and create alongside it as part of the author journey? How can we write with confidence and double down on what we love the most? William Kenower talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, planning for 2022 [Ask ALLi]; Your publishing options [6 Figure Authors]; Need an audiobook […]
Improve Your Sleep And Creativity With Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci
Jan 03, 2022
If the pandemic has affected your sleep, you are not alone! If you want to sort out your sleep issues and improve your creativity — and your life — as we head into a new year, this episode with Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci will help. In the intro, publishing industry trends for 2022 [Written Word […]
My Creative And Business Goals For 2022 With Joanna Penn
Jan 01, 2022
“We make plans, God laughs.” The old Yiddish proverb will no doubt stand true for another year, but I just can’t help myself! I need to make plans to have something to aim for, but given how 2021 didn’t turn out as expected, for 2022 I will hold my plans and goals loosely and won’t […]
Not Quite The Year We Hoped For. Review Of My 2021 Creative Business Goals
Dec 27, 2021
As we all look back at the past year, it feels like it’s flown by — but also that time has warped in a way and it feels like we’ve been stuck in this pandemic for much longer than we expected. So here’s my 2021 year in review and an update on whether I managed […]
How To Find The Time To Write And Make The Most Of Your Writing Time With Joanna Penn
Dec 20, 2021
Our publishing, marketing and author business tasks are important — but at the end of the day, it all comes down to writing. We are authors. We are writers. So as we head toward a new year, how can you find the time to write? How can you make the most of your writing time? […]
Why is story so important — no matter what genre we write? How can we use emotion to hook readers — and also tap into what matters in our own lives? Lisa Cron talks about these questions and more in this discussion about Story or Die. In the intro, Ultimate Guide to Copyright [ALLi]; How […]
Writing Hooks And Improving Your Fiction Book Description With Michaelbrent Collings
Dec 06, 2021
Readers buy or borrow your book based on your cover and book description, so how can we make sure the description is the best it can be? How can we make readers want to click Buy Now and start reading immediately? Michaelbrent Collings provides useful tips — and tough love! — for authors who struggle […]
Patience, Ambition, And Financial Independence With MK Williams
Nov 29, 2021
How can you cultivate patience for your long-term author career? How can you figure out your personal, creative and financial goals and make choices toward them? MK Williams talks about these questions, as well as podcast marketing and turning a blog or transcript into a book. In the intro, my reflections on the UK FutureBook […]
Digital Narration With AI Voices With Taylan From DeepZen
Nov 26, 2021
Is digital narration with AI voices good enough for non-fiction or fiction audiobooks? Can human narrators benefit through voice licensing? What are the options for sales and distribution? Taylan Kamis from Deep Zen explains digital narration for audiobooks, and I share some samples from my digitally narrated books through Deep Zen. Taylan Kamis is the […]
Short Stories As The Basis To An Award-Winning Author Career With Alan Baxter
Nov 22, 2021
How do you know when an idea is a short story, a novella, or a full-length novel? How can you turn one story into multiple streams of income? Alan Baxter talks about a long-term craft-centered approach to the author career and how his short stories have won him multiple awards. In the intro, State of […]
Can Stories Save The World? Writing For The Environment With Denise Baden
Nov 19, 2021
The relentless news about climate change can leave us despondent — but what if we can use fiction to help people with positive ideas of what the future could look like and the actions we can take to change things? Denise Baden talks about the power of eco-fiction and explains the Green Stories Novel Prize, […]
Big Ideas In Technology And Publishing With Michael Bhaskar
Nov 15, 2021
With so many technological advances in recent years, can publishing keep up? Michael Bhaskar and I discuss AI tools for writing, blockchain and NFTs, digital narration, and impacts on intellectual property rights licensing in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Spotify acquires Findaway and my thoughts on what it means for authors, narrators, and rights-holders […]
Amazon Keywords And Atticus For Writing And Book Formatting With Dave Chesson
Nov 12, 2021
Dave Chesson provides many useful tools and information for authors at Kindlepreneur and he has recently launched Atticus, writing and formatting software that will output both ebook and print formats, as well as providing collaboration and ARC management tools. Dave Chesson is the founder of Kindlepreneur and producer of Publisher Rocket and Atticus, amongst many […]
Pitching A Book For Film Or TV With Chrissy Metge
Nov 08, 2021
What projects are worth pitching for film and TV? What do you need to include in your pitch? Why are there more opportunities for writers now? Chrissy Metge talks about these questions and more. In the intro, the US Justice Department sues to block the Penguin Random House acquisition of Simon & Schuster [The Guardian]; […]
Creatokia. The World Of Digital Originals (NFTs) With Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann
Nov 05, 2021
Creatokia is one of the first book-specific NFT platforms and in this interview, co-founders Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann explain what NFTs are and why they are an opportunity for authors and rights-holders. They are also the co-founders of Bookwire, which already provides digital publishing solutions for the publishing industry. After the interview, I reflect on […]
Writing And Podcasting Poetry With Mark McGuinness
Nov 01, 2021
How can we balance creative passion projects with work that brings in an income? What are the different types of poetry and how can we bring them alive through the spoken word? Mark McGuinness talks about how poetry is at the center of his universe, fueling his creativity as well as informing his coaching business. […]
The Ownership Economy. Business Models Around NFTs With Jessica Artemisia
Oct 28, 2021
What are the different ways that authors can use NFTs to reach readers and earn money with blockchain technology? How can we address the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that is inevitable when faced with new technological options? Jessica Artemisia Mathieu explains some of the business models with NFTs. In the intro, and in a longer […]
Who Killed My Mother? Writing And Podcasting True Crime Memoir With Kory Shrum
Oct 25, 2021
On July 4, 2020, Kory Shrum received two phone calls. One from her uncle, saying her mother was found dead in her bedroom from an overdose. A second from a homicide detective saying he believes it was murder—and her uncle is the suspect. In this interview, Kory talks about how she turned her trauma into […]
How to Research Your Book With Vikki Carter, The Author’s Librarian
Oct 18, 2021
How do you research a book in the most appropriate way? How can you keep track of your sources and attribute them correctly, as well as avoiding inadvertent plagiarism? How can you get your book/s into libraries? Vikki Carter talks about all these questions and more. In the intro, Has Amazon Changed Fiction? [New Republic]; […]
Build Better Worlds: Anthropology For Writers With Michael Kilman
Oct 11, 2021
How can anthropology — the study of human cultures — teach us to build richer and more convincing worlds for our stories? What questions do we need to ask of our characters and settings to bring them alive? Michael Kilman talks about how anthropology can help with world-building in this episode. In the intro, the […]
How To Use Mystery To Hook Your Readers With Jonah Lehrer
Oct 04, 2021
How can you use elements of mystery to hook your readers, regardless of the genre you write? How can you make sure your writing process prevents errors or plagiarism? Jonah Lehrer covers these aspects and more. In the intro, KDP Print available in hardback; Bookvolts book-specific NFT platform [Medium]; Books for writers in the NaNoWriMo […]
Opportunities For Audiobooks And Introducing The Findaway Voices Marketplace With Will Dages
Sep 29, 2021
How can you expand your creative and financial opportunities with audiobooks and podcasting? Will Dages from Findaway Voices talks about options as well as introducing the new Marketplace. Will Dages is the head of Findaway Voices, which helps authors produce and distribute audiobooks to a global network of platforms and listeners. You can listen above […]
Co-Writing The Relaxed Author with Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Sep 27, 2021
How can you be a more relaxed author when there is always so much more to do? How can you co-write a book and retain different voices in written text as well as audio? Mark Leslie Lefebvre and I discuss how we co-wrote The Relaxed Author and how we're publishing and marketing it. In the […]
Writing And Producing Audio Drama And Podcast Fiction With Sarah Werner
Sep 20, 2021
The opportunities for creation and marketing in audio format continue to expand and the lines are blurring between audiobooks, podcasts and other forms of audio storytelling. In this episode, Sarah Werner talks about writing for audio first and the challenges of full-cast audio drama and podcast fiction. In the intro, problems with publishing distribution and […]
What are the different types of travel books and how can you blend them within the genre? How can we tackle our imposter syndrome when writing in a genre we love? Jeremy Bassetti explores these questions and more in today's show. In the intro, my 10-year author entrepreneur lessons learned; the different stages of an […]
Author Mindset: Strengths For Writers With Becca Syme
Sep 06, 2021
We all have different strengths as writers, but sometimes we don't know what they are. Or we get frustrated because we try to succeed at something that just won't work for our personality. In this interview, Becca Syme explains how our strengths can help us and how to ‘question the premise' whenever we face different […]
Narrative Design In The Gaming Industry With Edwin McRae
Aug 30, 2021
How can you design a story that branches into multiple directions? How does writing for games help with writing a novel? Ed McRae explains narrative design and the opportunities for writers in the gaming industry. In the intro, ‘the inevitable decline of open platforms' [Seth Godin]; pros and cons of different print distribution models [Adam […]
Stories Are What Save Us: Writing About Trauma With David Chrisinger
Aug 23, 2021
Writing can help us process trauma — whatever that means for you — as well as help others through our words. In this episode, David Chrisinger explains why stories can save us. In the intro, thoughts on print distribution [Jane Friedman]; Hachette's acquisition of Workman and why backlist is key [The New Publishing Standard]; Your […]
If you write fiction in any genre, you need to build your world. Whether it's the cozy coffee shop in your romance, or a complete fantasy world, or a post-apocalyptic wasteland, world-building can strengthen your plot and bring depth and conflict to your characters. Angeline Trevena gives plenty of tips in this episode. In the […]
The Metaverse For Authors And Publishing. Web 3.0, VR, AR, And The Spatial Web
Aug 12, 2021
Web 2.0 enabled the digital revolution that transformed the possibilities for authors and creators, so how will Web 3.0 transform it again over the next decade? This is a special futurist in-betweenisode on what many are calling Web 3.0 which encompasses virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), the metaverse, and the spatial web. It’s intended […]
Lessons Learned From A Decade Of Self-Publishing And Marketing Children’s Books With Karen Inglis
Aug 09, 2021
Taking the long-term view plus taking advantage of new marketing tactics can help you sell more books, as Karen Inglis talks about in this interview. In the intro, Pearson launches a subscription app [The Bookseller]; A+ content could help you sell more books [The Hotsheet]; Takeaways from Podcast Movement 2021 around the audio eco-system and […]
Bringing Old World Publishing Skills To New World Creators With John Bond From White Fox
Aug 06, 2021
What has changed in publishing over the last decade? How can a reputable author services company help you achieve your publishing goals? In this interview with John Bond from White Fox, we discuss aspects of the publishing journey. If you are considering working with an author services company or publishing partner, check whether they are […]
Rediscover Your Creative Free Spirit With Peleg Top
Aug 02, 2021
How can you rediscover your creative free spirit if you're feeling burned out? How can you combine creativity, spirituality and money to experience more in your author life? Peleg Top talks about these things and more in today's interview. In the intro, adding A+ content to your Amazon book pages; Audible launches Premium Plus in […]
Writing And Publishing Literary Fiction With Roz Morris
Jul 26, 2021
How do you know when the seed of an idea is enough for a novel? What makes literary fiction different from other genres? Roz Morris shares her writing process from idea to the publication of Ever Rest. In the intro, my experience of COVID, my interview on Story of a Storyteller, and A Mouthful of […]
Gentle Book Marketing With Sarah Santacroce
Jul 19, 2021
Can book marketing really be gentle, sustainable — and even enjoyable? Sarah Santacroce talks about how to reframe marketing and gives ideas for marketing your books. In the intro, Kindle Vella launches in the US [The Next Web]; A UK report calls for a reset in music streaming revenues to ensure fairer pay for artists […]
Co-Creating With AI Writing And Image Tools With Shane Neeley
Jul 16, 2021
How can co-creating with AI tools enhance your writing process — and make it more fun? Shane Neeley talks about his AI-augmented writing and visual art creations. This futurist show is sponsored by my Patrons at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. If you find it useful and you don't want to support every month, you could Buy Me A […]
Writing And Marketing Crime Fiction With Ed James
Jul 12, 2021
What are the key elements of a good crime novel? How can you reboot your author career through publishing and marketing changes? Ed James shares insights on his writing craft and author business. In the intro, Jeff Bezos steps down as CEO of Amazon [The Verge]; Why this is the best time to be in […]
From Self-Published Book To A Life-Changing Health Movement With Gin Stephens
Jul 05, 2021
Your personal story can change other people's lives, but only if you get your words into the world. In this episode, Gin Stephens shares how she self-published her first book on intermittent fasting and went on to get a traditional deal for more books, and lead a community of people into a healthier way of […]
Writing Humor And Insights From A Long Term Creative Career With Scott Dikkers
Jun 28, 2021
How can you write funny characters and make readers laugh with your writing? Plus the importance of long-term thinking and multiple streams of income when it comes to a career in comedy (or any creative field!). Scott Dikkers talks about these things and more in this episode. In the intro, Draft2Digital announces distribution to library […]
Writing Fiction With AI. Sudowrite With Amit Gupta
Jun 24, 2021
What if you could use an AI writing tool to help you come up with ideas for sensory detail, character descriptions, story twists, and more? Amit Gupta explains how authors can use Sudowrite in this episode. In the intro, I explain how I'm using Sudowrite, plus AI for Authors: Practical and Ethical Guidelines from the […]
Writing Non-Fiction With Personal Stories with Natalie Sisson
Jun 21, 2021
How can you write a useful self-help book with actionable tips, but also bring it to life with personal stories? How can you use a book title to attract your target market? Natalie Sisson shares her experience in writing her latest non-fiction book. In the intro, 94% of the world’s internet users are not in the USA […]
Embracing Multi-Passionate Creativity And Running A Small Press With Jessica Bell
Jun 14, 2021
Some say you can only be successful if you focus on one thing, but what if you are a multi-passionate creative? What if your Muse is inspired to write song lyrics as well as poetry, non-fiction as well as novels and heart-wrenching memoir? Jessica Bell manages to juggle many aspects of a creative career and […]
NFTs for Authors And Publishing with John Fox
Jun 10, 2021
Why are NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens) so exciting for authors and the publishing industry? How will they generate more streams of revenue for creators? What are some ways that authors could use them? All this and more in today's interview. I also mention Bloomberg's article on how NFTs shift power to artists in the intro. Thanks […]
Transitioning From An In-Person Business To Online Multiple Streams Of Income With Guy Windsor
Jun 07, 2021
The pandemic has favoured digital business models, but how can you transition to online sales when you run an in-person business? How can you move from one stream of income to multiple streams? Guy Windsor has lots of ideas for your author business in this fascinating interview. In the intro, fear-based decision making [Kris Rusch]; […]
How To Edit Your Book And The Different Kinds Of Professional Editors With Natasa Lekic
May 31, 2021
How you can prepare your book before sending it to an editor? What are the different types of edits and editors you can use for different phases of your writing process? When is editing software worth using and when do you really need human eyes on your work? All this and more in the interview […]
Discovery Writing And Sustaining A Long-Term Writing Career With Patricia McLinn
May 24, 2021
What is discovery writing (sometimes known as pantsing)? How can you write a novel with structure if you don't plot in advance? How can you build a writing career for the long-term? All this and more with Patricia McLinn. In the intro, “98 percent of the books that publishers released in 2020 sold fewer than […]
The Challenges Of A First Novel With James Blatch
May 16, 2021
What are the challenges of writing a first novel — even when you think you know what you're doing? How do you define success when you are just starting out on the author journey? James Blatch talks about these questions and more. In the intro, thoughts from attending the Audio Publishers Association conference, and audiobooks […]
The Heroine’s Journey with Gail Carriger
May 10, 2021
What is the heroine's journey and how can it help you write a story that readers will love? Gail Carriger shares her writing tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing house mergers [Agent Kristin Nelson]; KDP Print in Australia; Bookwire announces a new NFT marketplace for the publishing and creator industry [Publishing Perspectives]. Plus, […]
The AI-Powered Micro-Business with Ash Fontana
May 07, 2021
Artificial Intelligence is already part of our lives in the tools and services we use every day. As AI development accelerates, how can authors and small businesses use it as leverage to expand income and opportunities? Ash Fontana gives some ideas in this interview on The AI-First Company. In the intro, How GPT-3 is quietly […]
Tips For Translation, Self-Publishing, And Marketing In Foreign Languages With Nadine Mutas
May 03, 2021
The book market is saturated for certain genres in digitally mature markets like the US and UK, but readers in other markets are hungry for books. In this episode, Nadine Mutas talks about self-publishing in German, French and Italian and her tips for finding a translator and marketing the books once they're available. In the […]
Mind Management, Not Time Management With David Kadavy
Apr 26, 2021
How do we make time for original insights that set our creative work apart? How do we reframe productivity so it serves our career for the long term? David Kadavy talks about mind management, not time management in this interview. In the intro, Jane Friedman reports on how the pandemic is affecting book publishing, lessons […]
How To Make A Living With Your Writing: First Principles
Apr 22, 2021
If you want to make a living with your writing, you will need the right mindset, as well as the practical skills to write, publish and market your books. In this excerpt from How to Make a Living with Your Writing Third Edition: Turn Your Words into Multiple Streams of Income, I go into the […]
Global, Wide Self-Publishing With Mark Leslie Lefebvre
Apr 19, 2021
How can you reach every reader on every platform in a global, distributed reading environment? How can you take a long-term, relaxed attitude to your author career? Mark Leslie Lefebvre talks about self-publishing wide in this interview. In the intro, KDP introduces Kindle Vella, a new serial reading platform, perhaps a response to China Literature's […]
Writing, Publishing And Marketing Books For Children With Crystal Swain-Bates
Apr 12, 2021
How can you write a children's story with a message without being preachy? How can you find and work effectively with an illustrator? How can you market your book to kids in schools? Crystal Swain Bates gives her tips on writing, publishing and marketing books for children, as well as how we can make books […]
Publish Wide, Sell More Books And AI for Voice. Google Play Books With Ryan Dingler
Apr 08, 2021
How can you sell more ebooks and audiobooks on Google Play Books to the global market? How can you optimize your books so they are more likely to be discovered? How might auto-narrated audiobooks help expand the market? All this and more in today's interview with Ryan Dingler from Google. Ryan Dingler is a product […]
Writing Dialogue And Character Voice With Jeff Elkins
Apr 05, 2021
How can we write authentic and engaging character dialogue? How can we incorporate sub-text that deepens our writing? Jeff Elkins, The Dialogue Doctor explains more in this interview. In the intro, the new AudibleGate site; scammers using big publisher names [Writer Beware]; Vellum update for Ingram PDF [Vellum software; my tools and tutorials] ; Do BookBub […]
Fix Your Writing Tics With Chris Banks From ProWriting Aid
Apr 02, 2021
What is your writer's tic and how can you fix it with Pro Writing Aid? Why are commas such an issue for writers? (and my own personal nemesis!) How can AI tools enhance our creativity and usher in a new abundant future for writers? I discuss all this and more with Chris Banks from Pro […]
What Can Authors Learn From Digital Changes In The Music Industry? With Tristra Newyear Yeager
Mar 28, 2021
What can authors learn from the digital changes in the music industry? In this interview, Tristra Newyear Yeager talks about the empowerment of the indie musician, multiple streams of income, and the uses of blockchain and AI. In the intro, I report back on attending SXSW and some other online conferences on lessons learned from […]
How To Write A Cozy Mystery With Debbie Young
Mar 22, 2021
Why is cozy mystery such a popular genre? What are the important tropes? What are the best ways to market a cozy series? Debbie Young talks about these aspects and more in this interview. In the intro, K-lytics genre reports; Findaway Voices Headphone Report 2020; Edison Research Infinite Dial report on audio; 16 tips on […]
Publishing On Kobo Writing Life With Tara Cremin
Mar 15, 2021
How can you reach more readers worldwide and sell more books on Kobo? What are the advantages to publishing direct with Kobo Writing Life? Tara Cremin gives her tips in today's show. In the intro, the launch of HelloBooks.com; Twitter Spaces for audio-only social [The Verge]; Blockchain, smart contracts, and NFTs; Mapwalker Trilogy available now; […]
Copyright Protection, Smart Contracts, Digital Scarcity And NFTs For Authors. Blockchain For The Publishing Industry With Simon-Pierre Marion
Mar 12, 2021
Blockchain technology offers exciting opportunities for authors and the publishing industry. In this interview, Simon-Pierre Marion and I discuss copyright protection, smart contracts, estate management and faster, more transparent payments, as well as how digital scarcity could expand the revenue potential in the digital supply chain. Plus, I add some extra commentary on the potential […]
Warrior Of The Blank Page. Writing, Marketing And Mindset With Steven Pressfield
Mar 08, 2021
How can you write through self-doubt? How can you break through Resistance to write and market your work? How do you decide which book to write next? Steven Pressfield talks about being a warrior of the blank page, how he deals with Resistance around writing and marketing, as well as self-doubt and other aspects of […]
How To Write Authentic Crime Fiction With Patrick O’Donnell From Cops and Writers
Mar 01, 2021
How can you write nuanced police characters in your crime novels? What are some under-used crimes that might make interesting plots? Patrick O'Donnell talks about Cops and Writers in the interview today. In the intro, thoughts on a digital sales webinar from Ingram Content; the Immersive Books & Media 2020 Research Report [Publishers Weekly]; how […]
The AI-Augmented Author. Writing With GPT-3 With Paul Bellow
Feb 26, 2021
How can authors use AI writing tools like GPT-3? What's the best way to prompt the models to output usable text? Are there copyright issues with this approach? Author Paul Bellow explains how he is using the tools and how authors need to embrace the possibilities rather than reject them. In the intro, I talk […]
Writing Tips: How To Structure And Write A Series With Sara Rosett
Feb 22, 2021
Why is a series the not-so-secret weapon for making a decent living with your writing? What's the difference between episodic series and one with a clear arc across the books? What are some of the best ways to market a series? Sara Rosett talks about all these things and more. In the intro, Facebook shuts […]
How To Write A Non-Fiction Book Proposal With Alison Jones
Feb 15, 2021
What makes a non-fiction book stand out from the crowd? What are the essential elements of a non-fiction book proposal if you want to pitch agents and/or publishers, or if you want to prepare for effective self-publishing? In this interview, Alison Jones goes into detail on these things and how the publishing industry has changed […]
The Artist In The Machine: The World Of AI-Powered Creativity With Arthur I. Miller
Feb 12, 2021
Can artificial intelligence augment our human creativity? Will AI ever be able to create art on its own and would we even be able to appreciate it? In this interview, Arthur I. Miller talks about the nature of creativity and The Artist in the Machine. In the intro, I mention my list of AI writing […]
Value Your Books For The Long Term With David Farland
Feb 08, 2021
You are not writing one book. You are creating an intellectual property asset that can make you money for the rest of your life and 50-70 years after you die. In this interview, David Farland talks about the importance of valuing your writing, and how to keep a long-term mindset as an author. In the […]
Stop Worrying, Start Selling. Change Your Author Mindset With Sarah Painter
Feb 01, 2021
How can we reframe book marketing as a creative and essential part of the author life? How can we manage fear and self-doubt in order to write? How can we embrace our ambition and aim high while still managing the day to day writing life? Sarah Painter talks about all this and more in this […]
Turn Your Author Failures, Setbacks, And Mistakes Into Success With Joanna Penn And Orna Ross
Jan 25, 2021
We all experience failures, setbacks, and mistakes on the author journey — but if we learn from them, they can be the basis for our greatest success. In this episode, Orna Ross and Joanna Penn share their biggest mistakes, failures, and setbacks as well as lessons learned. This interview originally went out on the Ask […]
A Techno-Optimist’s View Of The Creative Future For Authors. Joanna Penn On The Kindle Chronicles Podcast
Jan 22, 2021
It can be daunting to think about the future for authors and publishing when converging technologies are expanding into the realm of creativity, but there are many opportunities ahead — if you engage with the tools rather than run from them. In this interview, Len Edgerly interviews Joanna Penn about Artificial Intelligence and Virtual Worlds: […]
Co-writing With Artificial Intelligence With Yudhanjaya Wijeratne
Jan 18, 2021
We all use tools as part of the writing process. Other books and internet resources for research, Scrivener for writing the first draft, and a computer for typing or dictating into, as well as editing tools like ProWritingAid. But what if you could use AI tools to help inspire the writing process? In this episode, […]
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