The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

**Intuition, Journaling, And Overcoming Fear. The Creative Cure With Jacob Nordby** Mar 10, 2025
**How can you release more creativity into your writing — and your life?** What are some practices to foster creativity in a time of change and overwhelm? Jacob Nordby gives his tips.

In the intro, tips for spring cleaning as indie authors; *Death Valley – A Thriller* Kickstarter; Death Valley book trailer; Footprints Podcast – Bath in Literature;

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Jacob Nordby is an entrepreneur and author of several books, including *The Creative Cure: How Finding and Freeing Your Inner Artist Can Heal Your Life*.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Indications we might need a “creative cure”

Practices to strengthen your connection with creativity

Journaling as a tool to work through mental and creative blocks

Practices around the physical body

Tapping into your intuition

Overcoming the fear that holds you back

Time and effort involved in changing career directions

How to keep pivoting, changing, and moving forward

You can find Jacob at JacobNordby.com.

Transcript of Interview with Jacob Nordby

Joanna: Jacob Nordby is an entrepreneur and author of several books, including *The Creative Cure: How Finding and Freeing Your Inner Artist Can Heal Your Life*. So welcome to the show, Jacob.

Jacob: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Jo.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into creativity and writing.

Jacob: Well, I was born … We won't start there! When I was 10 years old, I came out into the living room, and I'd been reading a book, which I did mostly. We didn't watch television or see movies or anything like that. So books were my very best friends.

So I came out of the living room and told my parents that I want to be a writer. Of course, I had told them before I wanted to be a spy or firefighter or something. This was the first thing that really hit for me, and I could really feel it.

Then fast forward into adulthood, and I promptly forgot that, and plunged into starting businesses and really trying to secure my place in the American dream. I woke up around age 35 realizing that this was all feeling very hollow.

After a series of events that turned my world upside down, I moved to Austin, Texas. It was there, working two or three part time jobs and trying to figure out what was next, that I remembered that I really wanted to be a writer. So I began to write about 15 years ago.

One of the things that helped me get started was *The Artist's Way* by Julia Cameron. Are you familiar with that work?

Joanna: Yes, absolutely.

Jacob: Okay, well, I was sitting in this warehouse and was writing away and began to go back into this book my father had given me, *The Artist's Way*. It really broke me open. I longed, at some point, to be able to **share the process of not just writing, but of discovering who we really are and expressing that.**

Fast forward about five or six more years from there, and I had the great pleasure of meeting Julia, and she's become a dear friend. So that's one aspect of the work I do, is I work with her and share these things.

Also, in my own world, **I hold workshops and do one-on-one work with people, guidance work, with both writers and non-writers.** It's just something I love because —

I see creativity as our vital spark, as our life force energy, and it's meant to flow in every part of our lives.

Often, when people will show up saying, “I'm creatively blocked,” we will pull that thread a bit and discover it's not just “creatively blocked.” I'm doing my air quotes fingers right now. It's feeling blocked in life.

So, often as we work through what are some channels in life that need to be opened up, they discover maybe it was “I need to clean my garage.”

Then they go clean the garage and come back in two weeks and say, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea how much I was boxing up my emotions, my sense of possibility, and everything. I found old boxes from my divorce or from when my mother died. I went through there, and all of a sudden I feel emotionally open and able to express again.”

So I love working with people in so many ways and helping them realize **that expression is meant to be as natural as breathing for the creative spirit.**

Joanna: Well, let's get into the book then, because it's called *The Creative Cure*. I find this an interesting title because the word “cure” implies a sickness where we start from. So I guess you mentioned feeling blocked there.

What are some of the things in our life or our writing that indicate we might need such a cure?

Jacob: You know, it's interesting. I wrote a previous book called *Blessed Are the Weird*, and that was this very direct sort of manifesto for creatives. I was surprised how many people showed up and raised their hands and said, “I'm one of this group,” whatever this group is.

There were a lot of other people, Jo, who would tell me, “I'm not that creative. In fact, I don't know if I have a creative bone in my body.” My heart just said we need to change this idea, what the idea of creativity has become.

In a lot of cases, I feel like it's been affected by the industrial era of production and distribution, which are wonderful things.

A lot of artists find themselves stuck because they can't see how what they have to create and share will ever become widely viable in that way.

So, cure. Here's what I feel very deeply about our creative spirit is that **it can't be broken or damaged,** but the process of becoming adults in the modern world **often fills the connection between who we are out there and our true inner creative self with static.** So, for me —

The cure isn't curing the essence of who we are as humans or creatives. It is curing that connection.

I feel like we are all susceptible to it in some way. Our attention spans are fractured. **We have a rate of change that is, I feel, really unsustainable for the human psyche to absorb in our lifetimes.**

In this era, we've absorbed more change than previous generations might in two or three generations. So I feel like **a lot of us can feel hurried and frantic** and just out of sorts, and that will become evident in our creative work.

So, for me, it's not so much curing the true person. It's looking at **what practices can I bring in that will strengthen and revitalize that connection.**

Joanna: Yes, I get you on the pace of change. On the day we're recording this, just yesterday, Microsoft announced this new quantum state of matter. I was like, seriously, haven't we got enough going on? Do we need something else again? So it does definitely feel like that.

So you mentioned there's some things that can help us maybe break through that static to fix that connection with our creativity if we're feeling like we've lost it. I like the word static, actually. I think sometimes it really does feel like that, just a bit disconnected.

What are some of the creative practices you recommend?

Jacob: One thing that I love to recommend **as a starting point is a ritual**. Ritual can sound kind of mystical or complicated. To me, it's really **a state of awareness**. So let's just say we make our cup of coffee in the morning and run out the door and gulp it as we drive, that's one way.

Another way would be to slow down and say, “I am creating this cup of coffee,” and **bring all of our attention and intention** into the process of it, which changes our experience of it.

I love to invite people who are sitting down to write to **create some version of a ritual, so they realize they are entering a different state of awareness**. Our awareness is so yanked in different directions. We jump on social media, and we see distressing things.

We see all these things coming around, and we often don't realize that we take that fractured or static-filled state of being or awareness into what we're doing, which means that we're not really allowing the pure stuff to come through as easily. It can feel harder.

So I love creating these personal rituals. Whether it's as simple as lighting a candle, it can be almost anything. **The real keys here are the attention and intention that I bring.**

It's an interesting shift, like to invite ourselves in there and notice that, oh, in this space, I feel quite different.

I feel I have access to different ideas, a different way of expressing.

I'll just use this morning as an example. I woke up, and it's really cold here in Northern USA. It's gray outside, and I wasn't feeling particularly inspired. So I went to my favorite little coffee shop with my journal, and this will be another practice I'll talk about in a moment, but asked myself to enter a different state of awareness.

So, for me, one item is creating these small rituals that help us intentionally shift into a different state of mind.

Joanna: Well, since you mentioned journals, maybe talk more about that.

Jacob: Well, you're aware of *The Artist's Way* and *Morning Pages*, and that's where I started with that, really in earnest. I also realized that many people don't find a whole lot of value in just long form, sort of dumping it out on paper. I do. I'm a writer. That's one of my favorite ways of expressing and exploring.

So over time, I developed a set of three questions, and I've shared this. When I first created this years ago, Jo, I put it out and was pretty sure it was way too basic and didn't have a lot of value.

Then I had people get a hold of me. Therapists were saying, “Oh, my goodness. My clients are journaling for the first time using this practice.”

So the three questions are, the first one is, “How do I feel right now?”

I'll come back to that. The second one is, “What do I need right now?” The third one is, “What would I love to create right now?”

If I'm going through a lot of emotional turbulence or something, I'll often switch that question up a bit and say, “How would I love to feel right now?”

So going back to that first question and the second, early in life, many of us internalize the messages that our needs don't matter and our feelings don't matter. In fact, **how many of us have been told you can't trust your feelings?**

So by asking these questions and really grounding them, really coming into the moment, how do I feel right now? Oh, I feel grouchy and tired. I feel uninspired. Or, I feel great. Whatever it might be.

The fact is, we send a signal to our psyche by asking that question and answering it that says, “I matter. My feelings matter.” Then we move on to the, “What do I need right now?”

Again, often it's prosaic for me, “Oh, I'm thirsty. I need to get a drink of water.” “Oh, I'm tired. I should take a small nap.”

Or it might be something larger or more existential, but in any case, again, it sends that message to the inner self saying, “I matter.” There's something wonderfully calming about that, is what I've discovered, Jo.

Joanna: I wonder if that's also **grounding in the physical body**. I mean, I walk a lot, so if I need to ground myself, I often will go for a walk out in nature, and that really helps. Or I do lifting, lifting heavy objects, powerlifting. Again, **anything that grounds me in my physical body actually takes me away from the screen.**

Most of what stresses us is beyond the screen and isn't happening right now, I guess. Do you have those practices around grounding in the physical body?

Jacob: Oh, yes. I love that you mentioned walking. That's one of my favorite practices. I also teach, and use as often as I can, **just really simple breathing techniques, like box breathing**. Often, to your point, I find that —

We are often quite disassociated from our bodies. We spend so much time up in our heads and in concepts versus what's in reality.

So, yes, I feel like these things can be incredibly simple. I do love going to the gym and lifting heavy things as well.

The walk thing, you know, if I can just put my phone in my back pocket or leave it home, which, frankly, I don't really do very often, but go out and take a walk. Things change. There's this bilateral stimulation that's happening when we're walking. It's almost like an EMDR effect, if you want to put it that way.

I've found that walking can often help us process deeply and open things up. I can't tell you the number of times I've taken a long walk and come back with the solution to some challenge I was having in my writing work that day. I would love to hear if you've had those experiences too.

Joanna: Oh, absolutely. It's one of my go-tos. I walk every day. I live in Bath in the UK. It's a very walkable city, and I live near a canal. So I walk an awful lot. I've done pilgrimages and all of this. So walking, for me, is like a core thing for mental health and physical health and creativity.

As you say, sometimes you just go for a walk and you come back—and, I mean, I take my phone too, for writing all the notes down that come up as I walk. So, yes, I think that's important.

I do want to come back on the journaling because, and this is very interesting, you mentioned earlier about this industrial era, production and distribution. Keep in mind that **I'm a professional author. I write books for a living, and many of the listeners, we write books.**

Let's say we have half an hour to write, the feeling is, “I must be writing words for my book.” Whatever that book is, and there's always another book, right?

How do you suggest people balance this need to write words for the next book versus journaling for the need of expressing yourself?

Jacob: I love that. I want to be very clear that I'm not throwing rocks at the industrial era. Civilization has really benefited from so many things that have happened there. I think that sometimes, especially people who are just getting started as writers, they can feel all this pressure.

You know, Jo, you've written many, many books and bestsellers, and just had that experience. So that's such a different thing than most people have who are just getting started. I think there can be **this intense focus on, “How do I write a best seller?” So that can often become its own block.**

Back to the journaling piece, I think that a lot of times people conflate those. It's like, well, if I'm going to write, then I need to write on my project, and journaling feels like writing.

I really love to think of journaling more like emotional, mental, spiritual yoga.

So it's a practice, but it's not the same as what we're doing when we sit down to write. In fact, I would challenge anyone who is feeling a little creatively blocked but also doesn't feel like journaling would have much value, I would suggest trying it for a week.

Spend 10 minutes, just 10 minutes. It's 10 minutes a day, writing out—using my three questions is fine, or anything else—but just writing out, “This is what's up for me. What is coming up for me? Okay, this is what's up. This is what's really bothering me.”

So often, I find when I sit down to do that, **as I pull what looks like a very small dangling thread, it leads to much deeper things that are going on in my life**. The act of acknowledging those things does something freeing. It opens up the channel.

So when I sit down to write, I'm no longer also trying to multitask by having three different conversations with people I'm having difficulty with in my head, or sorting out my taxes in my head, or whatever. There's something really wonderful about putting it on the page and acknowledging it.

I think that there are parts of the psyche that come forward and say, because you paid attention, and we know that you're going to pay attention to this as needed, now we'll relax. We had to get your attention. Now we have your attention. You've acknowledged it.

Now we'll relax so you can go on and do these other things that are important to you. I find that to be tremendously valuable, versus just trying to power through with all these prose flying around my head.

Joanna: Yes, I think for me, it's just that it is a completely different thing. I feel like the issue is people think writing is writing, but it's not. **I call myself a binge journaler,** and this is one of my issues with *Morning Pages*, is that kind of “it must be every day.”

Of course, we don't like shoulds and shouldn't, so we'll come back to that.

I definitely do not journal every day, but it sort of builds up and builds up and builds up, and then I will go to a cafe and I will journal, and all this stuff will come out.

Then it might be three weeks or something until I feel that need again.

In the meantime, I do my job, which is writing words for publication, which is like a completely different thing. So is it just the feelings that we have and learning to tap into where are those feelings going?

Is it a “making up a story” kind of feeling, or is it an “I really need to sort out my life” kind of feeling?

Jacob: I really love that distinction, and I'm glad you brought it up because I don't believe in dogma either, so shoulds and shouldn'ts. I really love that you're so in touch with your intuition or your feelings, that you're able to go, “Oh, I need a different version of this today.” I feel like that's really wise.

Joanna: Oh, that's very kind. Well, you mentioned intuition there, and you do talk about intuition and also joy around our writing in the book.

If people feel like they're not very intuitive, how can they tap into that and also find more joy?

Jacob: I would love to hear your definitions of intuition. When you hear that word, and not just the straight up definition, but any connotations, like what comes up for you when you hear that word?

Joanna: I guess we're coming back to feelings again. I just sense that I should do something. **I am an intuitive writer, so I don't plot, necessarily. I write the next book with whatever kind of comes up for me.** So it's just sort of tapping into what my creative self wants to do, I guess.

Jacob: I love that, and I didn't expect a lot different. I was just curious. Some people have a pretty negative connotation, or feel a negative connotation, in that word. They feel like it's really mystical. They feel like, oh, it's just sort of woo or out there. I would suggest it's extremely grounded.

I mean, I think you articulated it really well. You know, this is the feeling of this thing.

I have a friend who's a neuropsychologist, and he wrote a great book called *No Self, No Problem*. We were having this wonderful conversation one day, actually, while I was writing *The Creative Cure*.

I said, “Well, Chris, it feels like what you're saying is in our modern world, it's almost as if we've told a body builder to only work out the muscles on the left side of their body. Like that's the only thing that has value. Don't even bother with the right side. Then after 20 years of following that advice, the body builder has a hard time even walking down the road because there's no functional balance or muscle.”

He got all excited. He said, “Oh, yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.” I think we have to be aware that **in our current paradigm, the left brain activities are so highly valued and rewarded that we tend to distrust what's happening in the right side**.

This includes our experience of creativity in a more free flowing way. It includes experience of intuition, of feelings, of imagination.

So, for me, it's never the idea that we need to get rid of the left brain activity. It's like we really need those to finish a book, to put it out there, to take these steps forward, but we've over emphasized it. So what I like to encourage us to do is play little games.

Notice throughout the day what synchronicities come up.

We don't have to attach any particular meeting to them. If you see repeating numbers, or you're driving down the road and you just have this nudge to take this road versus the other road on your way to your destination.

I like to just play with it without going, okay, I'm going to have some miraculous thing, or an epiphany, or something dramatic is going to happen, or I've just avoided a horrible death. It doesn't have to be anything dramatic like that.

Just the noticing of the interoception, the signals that are coming up from our bodies and from our other senses, and tuning into them a little bit more. We can find that there is very interesting guidance available to us at all times. **People can interpret that mystically, or people can be very practical with it.**

There's some brain science here, where when we settle down from our fight or flight response, from our higher anxiety levels, we enter that ventral vagal state, Jo, and that's where all the good stuff happens.

I love to call it the Green Zone, or the creative zone, because **as we settle more deeply, we become more aware**. Our tunnel vision begins to fade, and we become aware of the answers and the ideas that are all around us.

So I love to invite people to play with it and actually really use it as a game, so it doesn't have to feel so serious. Like, what am I feeling right now? If I totally listen to my body and to my senses, what would I do this morning for breakfast versus what I always do, for example. Again, it can be very simple.

Joanna: I feel like maybe people have a problem with trust and are afraid of getting something wrong.

I'm very creatively confident now after many years of being a writer, but at the beginning it was like, well, I feel like I should do this thing, but what if I'm wrong?

What if I spend the next six months working on this book, and then nobody wants it? Or what if I choose to spend some money on this particular marketing thing, and then it just doesn't work?

**This fear of making a choice based on intuition,** it holds people back. What are your thoughts on that?

Jacob: If you don't mind, I'd love to ask a question in response. I'm curious if you can think back over your career, or just general life, and think about a time you did make a mistake?

Something you look back on later, and were like, “Oh, I would never have done that again,” but that it actually led you into experiences that actually became very important parts of your life. Can you think of anything like that?

Joanna: Yes, well, obviously there's lots of them because we all make tons of mistakes.

I mean, the big one that I often talk about is back before print on demand, I did a massive print run. **Back in 2007, I did a big print run of my first book, and then they all sat in my garage because I didn't know anything about book marketing**.

Joanna Penn with the first edition of what became Career Change. Most of those boxes went to the landfill!

I didn't realize that if you wrote a book, nobody would buy it unless you did some marketing. So that actually led me to start The Creative Penn, to start this podcast, to learn about book marketing. What really sort of jump started my career was this massive failure. So, yes, absolutely.

I mean, we all do these things, don't we? But—

Fear holds people back.

Jacob: Always. I mean, I don't know if there's one other factor that holds us back more than simple fear. I feel like it's very primal. We have this wiring that includes a negativity bias, and that's such a survival thing. It serves us, right, so there's nothing wrong with it. I think we just have to be aware of it.

Our imaginations are tuned, and often from a very early age, to begin imagining scenes in which we are experiencing rejection or failure or something painful, disappointment, and so we often use our imaginations primarily for that cause.

So I love to invite people to begin just taking a recess, even if it's only five minutes, and **imagining themselves in scenes of what they would really love to experience.**

I just love the story you just told. I know that it's completely like imaginary, but I'm just curious, if you hadn't printed all those books and had to learn how to market, and perhaps got picked up by a different publisher, and everything just kind of went swimmingly, I'm just curious what you wouldn't be enjoying in your life right now. Can you imagine what that might be?

Joanna: What I wouldn't be enjoying?

Jacob: Like you have such beautiful work in this podcast, and all that you do, and the way you serve and teach the writing community. So I'm just curious, if things had worked out better, you know, like a garage not full of your books, I'm just curious what you wouldn't have now if you hadn't made that mistake.

Joanna: Well, I think what happened was because of that failure in print publishing at that time in history, it just also coincided. You used the word synchronicity earlier, and I know Jungian psychology, so I absolutely love synchronicity.

**It was the same year that the Kindle launched and the iPhone launched**, and when I failed in this print publishing, traditional media, you know, I got on national TV—I was in Australia at the time—but then none of it worked.

Then I saw the Kindle, I saw the iPhone, and I saw Americans, and I was like, what if I can use this technology and I don't have to use print books?

I can reach these people through digital means.

So I got on the Kindle, and the iPhone, and podcasting very, very early, and have kind of surfed that technological wave since then. So that “mistake” led me into so much. But you keep putting this back on me, Jacob—

I think you need to tell us about one of your mistakes that has turned into success.

Jacob: Oh, my god. Well, you know, I alluded to it earlier, but **I had built these businesses, and I was waking up at 3am every day absolutely terrified**. Everyone around me, all they saw was this big new office I had built. All they saw was the influence I had around town or whatever.

They couldn't see how terrified I was.

That was around 2007, actually. So I had a pretty big breakthrough. I went to what I thought was a meditation retreat. It turned out to be a shamanic initiation, and I didn't know what a shaman was.

I had a medicine journey during that that was like this massive moment of clarity, and I had no idea what to do with it. I went back to my life, to my office, and scrambled as hard as I could.

All I knew is that I had experienced some aspect of me that was free, that wasn't afraid, and that would actually love to have created something very different with life. I also had no idea how to rearrange my life. I just I felt so responsible.

The next year or so, the financial meltdown, the mortgage meltdown, came along and just wiped me out. So, of course, I don't like to sugar coat these things and go, “Oh, you know, everything happens for a reason, and it was exactly what I needed.”

It's like, no, it was absolutely terrifying and turned me upside down, but that was the event. I could look back and say, “Oh, I made so many mistakes. I got in so far too deep into these projects and all that.”

The truth is, though, that experience—and I love that you're familiar with Jungian work—that's where I began to really learn about the Jungian work during that time, Jo, and that was what really cracked me open and allowed me to find out who I was under all those previous layers.

It was like I was wearing this really heavy, ill-fitting armor for so long, and so that was **one of those really big “mistakes” that led to me finding the path I was really meant to be on in the first place.**

Joanna: That's interesting. I think we might be like almost exactly the same age. I think we've gone through things at exactly the same time.

Time is a really important thing here because both of us are talking about experiences. I also got laid off in the financial crisis, and it took a lot of time, but that also shaped the way I run my business now.

So let's just talk about the perspective of time because it feels like both of us have said, “Oh, this really bad thing happened, and then I changed my life.” How long did it take you to extricate yourself from the situation you were in and be in a life where you were more happy and fulfilled? Not that we're ever completely there.

I feel like that's what people need, is this sort of perspective on—

If you want to change direction, how long does it take? What's the effort involved?

Jacob: Do you want me to give a comfortable story, or do you want me to tell what I feel is the truth?

Joanna: The truth, absolutely.

Jacob: I love what you said on your website. You know, it hasn't always been this way. No, and I would never want to discourage anyone by saying it can be a really lengthy process.

I will say that, at least in my experience, I had so much I was carrying when it comes to my beliefs about myself and the world and what I was capable of, and all of that, that that **big, sort of terrifying event that shook everything up**, it was like I had some years of simply going.

I'd been running so fast that I haven't ever looked under the hood, if you will. I'm mixing my metaphors there. My mother is a therapist, and she likes to use the idea of skating on a frozen river. She said I skated on this frozen river and I was terrified that if ever slowed down, I would fall in, the ice would crack and I would fall in.

She's like, one day the ice just broke open, and I fell in, and **I had no choice but to do all this inner work and examination.** I think that's a really beautiful way to look at it.

So once the process of self-discovery really gets underway, I would like to say it's exactly 16 months, in my experience. It can take longer, but if we're willing to see it as that, and not just numb it out or try to run away from it or do whatever over the top of it —

If we're willing to go into that exploration, what we'll find in there is ourselves.

What we'll find in there is our authentic voice. What we'll find in there is our sense of purpose. So I'd love to give, well, it's a range of one to seven years, but in my experience, **it was several years before I even began to feel that my footing was coming back**, Jo. I would love to hear what your experience of that was.

Joanna: Well, again, pretty similar. It's funny, I was just reflecting then because you're reminding me of those early days. This book, *The Creative Cure*, I feel like now I'm not in the place where I need this, but this is the book I needed back in 2005 when I was 30 years old and thinking, “What the hell am I doing with my life?”

I read, then, and I listened to a lot of audios. Tony Robbins, a good self-help guru. Jack Canfield, *The Success Principles*. Those are the books I was reading, and I was trying to change my mindset. Then I figured out that I wanted to write, and then I got into writing.

**It was a process of years**. So between 2005 being really super miserable, to 2007 I really sort of put that first book out. Then 2011 was when I finally left my job to go full time. [Check out my timeline here.]

I always talk about it taking five years, so it's kind of good that you put it in that ballpark, too.

Jacob: Well, I think otherwise, Jo, it's easy, and god knows I tried to do this, I tried to shortcut the process as often as I could. Like, get me out of here. This is not comfortable. It's not fun.

I think that being aware that short-cutting it can—I've seen it happen a lot of times. I wasn't actually writing, but I got really sort of springboarded forward a bit. I entered this thing called The Next Top Spiritual Author Competition. That was when I was living in Austin, and there was this publishing deal as kind of the big carrot.

Of course, I didn't win that competition, but I got to witness a lot of other writers, and this is my first time of really being in the space with a lot of other writers. This was kind of a global thing, and there were a lot of people who had entered it. Many of us got to know each other, some of whom are still my friends to this day.

I also got to witness a lot of people, Jo, who had had some kind of experience, and they wanted to write about it. **They wanted to share their wisdom with the world. They also hadn't given it the time to really cook, to mature.**

So I've watched some of them get a little bit frozen there, to where had they been willing to keep going in their own process and let it grow deeper for a while, let it really mature, they would have been able to keep going.

I've seen some of them kind of freeze frame there, and they've never been able to move beyond that one thing.

They reformed their identity a little too quickly around, “oh, this is who I am,” you know.

I don't want to make fun of that at all because I think it's very natural. Anytime we're feeling out of sorts or out of balance, we want to recover our sense of equilibrium.

So I have a lot of compassion for that, but I would encourage anyone going through what feels like being turned upside down and shaken, give yourself some grace. **Realize that jumping on it too quickly and saying, “This is now who I am,” might actually rob you of some real benefits that will enrich your work down the line.**

Joanna: This interview is certainly going in a different direction than I thought it would be, but we're leaning into that.

You talk there about moving beyond the one thing, and those people who were stuck. This is something I think about a lot, and my listeners will know this is something I've been thinking about for a while because, obviously I started in this independent author career back in 2007.

For the last few years, I've been really thinking about how to make sure everything stays fresh and new, rather than go into a rut.

Every industry, although being an independent author was new in sort of 2007, and there was a lot of new things, things have changed a lot since then. Technologies, obviously.

**What we don't want to be is stagnant in our creativity, in our writing, in our lives**. I know there'll be people listening who have been writing for decades as well. Some people listening will be writing for 30 to 40 years.

How do we keep things fresh?

How do we keep pivoting, changing, and moving forwards, when we have a career that we love, when we do something we love, but we know we can't get stagnant?

Jacob: I feel like that's a ten million dollar question.

Joanna: You must be in a similar position, right? I mean, you've been doing what you do a long time, and you work with people who've been doing it a long time. **What you don't want to be is the jaded person.**

Jacob: I was looking over your work, Jo, and I just love how diverse your work is. I feel like you have a lot to teach me about this, actually, in terms of just really being a little more prolific and writing these different types of things.

I feel like every creative endeavor, anything that's truly original, there is this required uncertainty.

I don't know how this will work out. Without that, often we find ourselves sort of repeating ourselves.

I'm thinking of some massively famous writers in the US. One in particular comes to mind for some reason, whose work has become so formulaic, but it's always a blockbuster.

I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with writing to formulas. I think we all do it to some degree, but I just look at some of these things and realize, oh, **the production distribution has become more important than the art, in some cases.**

So to step outside of that, to step over the line of, this is what I know. This is what I know works for me in terms of bringing me financial security or whatever it might be. I think there's that itch.

I think it goes back to what you were talking about earlier, about intuition, Jo. It's that sense of, okay, I know I'm being called outside of this familiar sort of routine. I don't think there's a point at which it's like, okay, this is wrong. So it's not, to me, about right or wrong.

Maybe a person decides I really just love writing according to this template or formula. I just really love doing this, and I love knowing kind of what to expect from it and all of that. So I wouldn't say everyone needs to always be leaping off into the abyss and building their wings or something.

I would love to hear your thoughts, since we're exploring this together. I definitely didn't expect the interview to go this way, either. So I'm in the deep end.

Joanna: Well, **I think it is about taking risks.** It's funny because between like 2005/2006 and then when I left my job in 2011, I was working a day job. So I was working as a business consultant, and then I eventually went part time. So what I was doing, I was doing on the side, and that's how I think about it now.

So right now, for example, **I'm writing a screenplay, and it's a risk, and it's not making me any money**. So it's almost like I'm doing it on the side. So I feel like the taking risks, where we both started, we took risks to unwind one career and start another.

Maybe it is about doing things on the side, whether you love your job or whether you're stuck in a job.

Jacob: Ooh, I love that. There were people who asked me early on as I was writing and putting things out there, why I wouldn't just take the full leap into trying to earn my living right from the written word.

One thing that I told them then is **I didn't want to put my process under that kind of financial pressure early on**. I'm like, if I can look at the job that I'm doing, the day job to pay the bills, if I can look at that as a funding source rather than, “It must fulfill my creative needs.”

Those things are very important to me in life, but there was a period of time during which it was just important for me to look at the work I did for pay as a funding source and not try to make it more than that.

For some reason, that actually freed up that energy I would have used in being miserable about having to work this stupid job for money. It freed that energy up to go, oh, this is how I fund being able to take my time and really grow as a writer.

Joanna: Well, we are almost out of time. I think you and I could do this for a lot longer.

Tell people where can they find you and your books online.

Jacob: Well, you can go to JacobNordby.com, that's probably the easiest way.

I would love to just say how much I love the world of writers, Jo. You've been doing such amazing work in this space for a really long time. I just want you to know, I'm so grateful that you invited me here. Thank you for doing the good work you're doing.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Jacob. That was great.
The post Intuition, Journaling, And Overcoming Fear. The Creative Cure With Jacob Nordby first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Writing Action Adventure And Traveling For Book Research With Luke Richardson** Mar 03, 2025
What are the tropes and reader expectations for action adventure thrillers? Why publish into KU and what are some of the ways to market there? **How can travel enrich your writing?** Luke Richardson gives his tips.

In the intro, ProWritingAid launches their Manuscript Analysis tool;
Navigating legal risk in memoir [The Indy Author]; Social media for authors in 2025 [BookBub]; Amazon relaunches Alexa, now Alexa+ which is now powered by Claude AI; Scribe, the world’s most accurate transcription model [ElevenLabs];
ElevenReader Publishing to the Reader app; *Death Valley, A Thriller* by J.F. Penn.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book *before* you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Luke Richardson is the bestselling author of the Eden Black Archaeological Thrillers and the International Detective thriller series.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Taking the leap into full-time indie authorship

Reasons for unpublishing books and maintaining your author brand

Researching the tropes and market of your genre

The purpose of a prologue and when to include one

Tips for writing characters that are unlike yourself

Turning travels into stories

Why publish in KU instead of wide?

Selling non-book items or experiences

You can find Luke at LukeRichardsonAuthor.com and his new podcast at AdventureStoryPodcast.com.

Transcript of Interview with Luke Richardson

Joanna: Luke Richardson is the bestselling author of the Eden Black Archeological Thrillers and the International Detective thriller series. So welcome to the show, Luke.

Luke: Hi, Jo. Thank you for having me. This is wonderful to be able to talk to you.

Joanna: I'm excited about it. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing.

Luke: It's been one of those sort of roundabout ways that a lot of people talk about, but I often cite—this is something I've written on my profiles and written emails about. I often cite my first arriving in India in 2011 as the reason I wanted to write.

It was just this **transformational moment of being totally culture shocked** in a completely different place in a way that I couldn't describe and couldn't really explain. We'd come out of the airport, we're into this taxi going past the slum villages on the edges of this freeway that's sort of 16 lanes wide. There's donkeys, and sports cars, and tractors, and all of this going on. It was just so overwhelming.

Although I didn't write for several years after that, it was **that excitement about stuff, and the world, and discovery, and adventure that lodged in me**. Then when I started to write, those things started to come out of me. Do you know what I mean? They started to come out in my writing.

Joanna: That's so funny. We're going to get into travel because you and I are travel geeks. I also remember arriving in India, would have been about five years before that, in the middle of the night in an airport in—it wasn't Delhi—but it was one of the biggest cities. It was like crazy, crazy. So that culture shock is really interesting.

How did you then get into indie publishing, as opposed to maybe going traditional?

Luke: I was an English teacher in a high school for several years, under the illusions that it would be a creative thing to do because I've always been very creative. I've always loved that. For the first couple of years, it actually was quite creative. Then, I think as I'd done the same classes four or five or six times, over and over again, it became less so.

Then I started writing. I came up with this idea for a book, and I was like, great. It was actually set in **Kathmandu, and it's the first book in my International Detective series.**

Someone who's like me in 2011, in the back of that taxi, totally overwhelmed, tasked with finding a missing person in this city that they've never been to. They don't speak the language, they don't know the culture, and they've got to go and find this person.

I came up with that idea based on my travels, based on the things that I've done.

It was really just a creative outlet. It was a passion. It was something I wanted to do outside of work.

Then I finished the book, and I did that thing which we've all done, I think, and you fold your arms, and you go, huh? **Half of us is really impressed that you finished this thing, and the other half's like, what do I do now?** What do I do with it?

I gave my mum a copy and a couple of other friends, and then **I went down the rabbit hole of learning about publishing and how to get it out in the world**. Your podcast, and other podcasts, and online courses, and YouTube videos, and all this sort of thing.

I never tried the traditional route. I was far too impetuous. I wanted to get on with the next book.

So I learned about indie publishing and published it in 2019.

Joanna: Are you still a teacher?

Luke: No, no. I left just before the pandemic. So I quit then. I needed a change, which was great, actually, because it meant I had the whole time of those few years to really focus on my writing.

It built up slowly, as these things do. So the first year was quite tough. **I had to do some freelance work on the side and do some other writing, sort of freelance writing and things.**

Then, when was it? I think it was two years ago that it became the job, and now we've surpassed the teaching. It's become more successful than the teaching was, so I'm really excited about.

Joanna: I think this is a really good point.

You left your job in 2019, and it was 2024 when your income surpassed your old job?

Luke: Yes, income from books.

I mean, we couldn't travel anyway because travel was off the table at that time, so it was a good time to not spend much money anyway. So **I've lived quite a frugal life whilst I was doing that and did some freelance work on the side.**

I really just started again, I suppose you'd say, in a professional capacity. Built up the mailing list, built up the socials, learned about all these things.

What I decided, I think, is that I needed to give it a proper chance. I think if I wanted to do it as a hobby, writing in the evenings and the weekends was fine.

If I wanted to do it as a job, and I wanted this to be my life, I needed to give it space.

So that was the decision.

I didn't love teaching at that point. I was ready for a change. So, yes, I think that was a good decision. It's worked out well in the end, obviously, too.

Joanna: So you mentioned the word job there. I feel like this is so important, and I've talked about this before. Having a hobby is amazing, and **for most people, writing as a hobby is brilliant and probably what most people should do.** As you mentioned, the word job, and that is how we make our living with books or word-adjacent things. So what does that job entail for you?

That perhaps when you wrote that first book, when you were a teacher, you didn't even think about?

I feel like a lot of people coming in don't understand what the job of an author is, or let alone the job of an indie author.

Luke: That's true. There's so much to it. There's **the production side, which is obviously the writing, the researching, the actual making the book**. I don't just mean research in terms of what's in the book, I mean research of what does the market need.

Now, I'm not saying you need to write to market necessarily, but you need to—I think not need, that's the wrong way to say it. It's not prescriptive, but **it helps if you have an understanding of what the market likes, if that makes sense.** You don't necessarily have to follow tropes.

This is an issue, isn't it, I think with indie publishing. You can do whatever you want, but with that comes great challenges as well because whatever you want is massive. No one wants to read a book that's everything, right?

It needs to be something. It needs to pin its colors to the mast.

Some colors to one mast or another. It can't be everything to everyone. **So you need to decide at some point where that is, and who your reader is,** and what they like and those sorts of things.

It's easier if you're writing in a genre that is popular, that is easy to communicate, that is easy for people to understand. I suppose that helps as well. So, yes, that's production.

There's also sort of the business side of it. We're at the end of January now. I've had a really boring week of tax returns and these sorts of things.

There's the **marketing side. There's running the newsletter and the social media** and all of this sort of stuff, which needs to be done and should be enjoyed, if possible.

Joanna: I love that you said earlier that it took almost five years, I guess, for the money to get back up to where it was. It was the same for me.

When I left my original consulting job in 2011, I took a massive pay cut. It took until 2015 before I started making more than I used to make, and have done ever since, by the way. So hopefully that encourages you.

Luke: Thank you. Yes, I hope so.

Joanna: So how many books do you have now? Like when you talk about the job and the production—

What's your schedule for putting books out?

Because you are writing genre fiction, basically.

Luke: **I have written around 20 now**. A couple of out of print because they didn't really match the brand that I was going for, so I've taken them out for now, and perhaps we'll republish them later.

So I've got six in my International Detective series, six in the Eden Black series, and then there's obviously novellas and other such things. So it's probably less than 20, actually. It's always a hard question, and I wonder if you feel the same, in that you don't know. You don't know exactly. Almost 20, I'll say that.

Joanna: Well, what's funny, I've got on my wall here, “50 books by 50,” and as we record this, I'm 50 in six weeks.

Luke: Oh, congratulations.

Joanna: Well, the achievement of living to 50, I guess, is one of them. I've actually started a blog post—I can't remember when this goes out—but **I will be doing a blog post on my 50th birthday, which is calculating how many books I've actually written, including all the different editions.**

Well, you said you've unpublished some of those and may republish them. So my first three novels I rewrote, so they're in second edition. Some of them are in third edition. A lot of my nonfiction is in multiple editions.

So those ones you unpublished, so people know, when you wrote them originally and published them, you must have thought they were fine, and then you decided to take them down. So why did you decide to do that?

Is that something people can prepare for in advance so that they don't have to unpublish things?

Luke: I would like to put them out again, and it's probably just me being too perfectionist, actually, because **I know people have read them and enjoyed them. They're a good series.** I wrote them with Steven Moore, who I know you know as well, and it was a collaboration project we had.

My books now are very family friendly. They're very clean.

They're sort of in the vein of Indiana Jones style. Whereas those books I wrote with Steve are a bit darker, they are a bit more nefarious.

Unless I do a rewrite, which I would like to do when time allows, because I think they could be changed to bring them into the same sort of world as the books that I have.

People ask me why I write the books in the way that I do. I want someone to have my book and put it on their coffee table proudly with the bookmark in it, and if their 12 year old daughter or niece comes up and picks it up and flicks through and takes an interest in it, they are happy for that person to go and read it.

Or their grandma comes in and picks it up and flicks through it, they are happy for that person to read it. I don't want them to have any sort of, “Oh, that's a bit this for you,” or, “That's a bit that for you.” Do you know what I mean by that?

I felt that those books, because of the way they were, I wasn't quite happy for them to be in that situation. I didn't want someone to recommend me and then go, “Oh, read Luke's books, but don't read those.”

Joanna: I do feel like that is very much a personal decision, though. As in, I remember the stuff I was reading at age 12. I mean, I do think that different people like different things, but I get exactly what you mean. So **you've decided on family friendly action adventure, basically.**

Luke: Yes, that's right.

Joanna: I love that. Okay, so let's come back to action adventure thrillers then. You and I both write around, we use the word thriller, I think, quite loosely, and it is a very big genre.

As a sub-genre, what are the hallmarks of your books and the action adventure thriller genre that you (and I) write in?

Also, how do you vary them in the books in the series? I feel like this can be a challenge for people.

Luke: Yes, it's a good question, and something I only started to understand when I wrote my second series. It has become much more successful than the first, and I think it's because I took time to understand this, actually.

It's what I was saying a minute ago about it can help if you do a bit of research in the market before actually sitting down to write. So **there's certain ingredients that my books need.**

They're all based on an ancient legend.

So I've done one set in the Pyramids of Giza, one about Atlantis, one about a mummy on the Titanic. That's a proper rumor, I'll have you know. Whether it had anything to do with the sinking or not, they're not sure. One about the Templars.

The one I'm working on at the moment is going to be set in the Sahara, and all to do with a hidden city under the Sahara and this sort of thing. So those sorts of interesting settings, locations.

Obviously there needs to be **a race against time before something happens.** The classic one is “this thing can only happen on the summer solstice or when the planets are aligned.” Or, I know this is one of your favorites, “because there's a storm.”

Joanna: I love a good storm.

Luke: Or, “The storm is coming in six hours, and we need to solve this thing before the storm.”

Joanna: Right now, writing *Death Valley*, I am actually editing the big storm scene.

Luke: I love it. Yes, so **they're generally set in the present day** as well, but the present day can be quite loose because Clive Cussler wrote his in the present day, although that was the 80s. So it can be quite loose as to when the present day is, but they sort of track the events of pre-history.

One of the tropes is you have this prologue that takes place in like 5000 BC, and then what happened there relates to the present day when that relic is uncovered.

There are other strands too that sort of happen, sometimes a romantic element.

**A relatable villain** is another one, which I think is more of a modern trope, actually. I like this in my books, a pinch of the supernatural. Think like the Ark of the Covenant in the Raiders of the Lost Ark, the Indiana Jones films. It's just there.

We don't know quite what it is, or why it had that strange effect on the people at the end, but it did it, and it could be true. There's a tiny element that it could be true that I like to put in mine as well.

Joanna: Yes, and we overlap in so many ways. I think **I definitely have slightly more supernatural than you and more religious elements** because I'm obsessed with religion, religious relics and stuff like that. You and I both kind of cover similar areas.

This is what's interesting, isn't it, in terms of what you love as a kid and then what you enjoy writing.

I do want to come back on the prologue, especially because you were an English teacher. Now, **I love a prologue. I write prologues in my action adventures as well,** but a lot of people have issues with prologues. You explained a bit what a prologue was there, but—

What purpose does a prologue serve in a book?

When should people use one? When is it not a good idea, do you think?

Luke: I had this conversation with a writer who I'm working with at the moment, and they had put it as chapter one. I said, this is not chapter one. This is **a prologue because a prologue is clearly delineated from the book itself**, in my mind. I'm not asking Google this, this is just what I think.

It's clearly delineated from the book itself. It isn't part of the story. So the story can be read without the prologue, should you want to. It just add some context.

It puts some root in the history of the book that tells you a little bit about where that book is going to go based on sort of what happened before the event, if that makes sense.

Joanna: I think it's like a foreshadowing. Often in my one, the ancient relic is there or discovered by someone thousands of years earlier, and something very bad happens. This then kind of foreshadows the present day, where obviously something very bad is about to happen, and then they have to stop it.

A prologue can be foreshadowing.

Luke: Yes, and I think it helps the reader know the passage of time as well, because they're clearly not at the same period. That's one thing that I like that I find useful with it as a writing technique.

Joanna: Yes. I've definitely written some that are only a couple of weeks earlier, but sometimes a thousand years ago or whatever.

Luke: Yes, but that's the convention, isn't it? The thousand years ago one. I'm not saying that can't be a prologue, but I'm saying the convention, in my mind, and I could be completely wrong, is that it's sort of someone putting the capstone on the Great Pyramid, and then it cuts to black.

Then we see someone, in the present day, driving through the pyramids on a Jeep or whatever.

Joanna: That's cool. I personally do like a prologue. Actually, just coming back to your English teacher side, **many authors have to fight the sort of snobbery that some English teachers instilled in them, including myself**.

I certainly look back and was told by my English teacher that I couldn't write such things, that I should write something acceptable for a young woman. That definitely stopped me writing for a long time.

So if people do feel sort of hamstrung by this, by the comments from their English teachers in the past—

Is there anything that you say to people to help them get over comments from a teacher about their writing?

Luke: It's a hard one, isn't it? That teacher, certainly in your experience, did the wrong thing. That's not an encouraging attitude to have, and I wouldn't have had that attitude with one of my students.

It's a challenge because, and without getting too political, the school system is very sort of dictating in what you can teach and what you can't teach.

I didn't want to teach certain students 19th century literature. That's a very difficult thing to teach to students who would be better off with something more modern, with something more relatable to them. that's a struggle for all English teachers, and a lot of teachers generally, actually.

So I think that gives a perception to young people about what books should be, that you're in this place, and it is just books that are important and that have sort of stood the test of time. **There's no fun in it, or there's certainly less fun in it, which was one of the reasons I ended up getting fed up of it and moving on at the end.**

Joanna: Well, I love that you, as an English teacher, are writing genre fiction. I think that you must have had to put aside some of that snobbery yourself, I guess.

Luke: I don't think I ever had that snobbery, to be honest.

I think writing should be fun. I've always thought it should be fun. There's no reason for it not to be. That's why people open a book.

That's why they get involved in this imaginary world for an escapist adventure. it's our job to make that fun.

Sometimes we put a bit of history and a bit of social commentary, perhaps, or one of our opinions, we slip that in there as well. That's fine because we've honored the contract with the reader to make them enjoy themselves as well.

Joanna: Well, that's great. Then just coming to your books, like one of your bestselling series is this Eden Black Archeological Thrillers. Eden Black is a woman, a female protagonist. So some people will say, I don't, but some people say you shouldn't write a character that is not like yourself.

People have said this to me writing male characters or people of different persuasions in whichever direction. So how do you deal with this? Like, did it even come up in your mind that you shouldn't write a main female character?

Luke: No. Of course, it didn't.

Joanna: No, exactly.

What are your tips for authors who might be concerned about writing characters different to them?

Luke: I know. I had some people comment—not people—I had a comment about this on a Facebook ad saying, “Who are you to write?” It was actually from a bloke. I was surprised that it was from a man. I don't know why I was surprised it was from a man.

He said, “Who are you to write strong female characters?” And I said, “I'm married to one. I was brought up by one. I have many friends who are them.”

Joanna: And do you think the rest of it is true? I say to people, I'm like, seriously, do you think I'm all my characters? Like the villain and the murderer and, you know, whoever? It's crazy. So I'm so glad you did that. So it didn't come up in your mind before you started?

Luke: No, not at all. One thing to say is that —

Every character in your book is you in a weird sort of way, even the villain. They're all parts of you that you're projecting into the page in some way.

Also, you're inventing in some sort of way.

Actually, I feel that **we as humans, without getting too meta about it, are more similar than we are different.** Regardless of whatever. Race, gender, age, anything, we're more similar than we are different.

We feel the same things. Of course, there are differences, but my books are about things—like we've talked about getting the relic and all of this—but beyond that, they're about fitting in, and loss, and grief, and understanding each other, and belief, and hope, and all these feelings.

It's quite generic to being human, regardless of whether you're female, male, whatever. So I believe that by writing them in that way, that it really doesn't make a difference.

Joanna: No, and I love it because when I started writing my ARKANE Series with Morgan Sierra, I mean, there really weren't many action adventure books with female main characters.

ARKANE action adventure thriller series by J.F. Penn

That is why I was got excited about the Lara Croft movies and stuff like that because that was kind of the only option. Now, what's great with indie is there's so many. It's brilliant.

Luke: Wasn't there an article saying that they're a dying trend or something recently?

Joanna: Oh, everyone always says action adventure is dying. The thing is, there's always a group of people who still like that, including us.

Well, let's also talk about your travels. You will be coming on my re-booted Books and Travel Podcast, and if people want to geek out with us on travel, come on over there. So let's just talk about it as a writer. How do you turn your real life travels into the stories?

What are your tips for authors on turning real experiences into story?

Luke: That's true, isn't it? Generally, the way I do it is I go to a place without a preconceived idea. **I just get immersed in the place, and I walk around the place**. I don't worry about creating content particularly, or anything about taking photos or taking notes. I just sort of fall into it.

I'm going to let you into the secret behind my book that I haven't written yet, actually. I'll do that because I think this is really exciting.

So in the 70s, they created this pattern called quasi crystalline tessellation, and it was created by scientists in the UK and in America. Now, they realized that this pattern exists in two places in the world.

**It exists in meteors, t**he molecular structure of meteors that come from out of space, and **it exists in the sand upon which a nuclear blast has happened.** The heat has been so intense that it has formed the sand into a rock that has this molecular structure.

Then they discovered **it existed in a third place. It's on the walls of 13th century mosques in Morocco and Iran** and other countries in the Middle East. I was walking around Marrakesh, where we were traveling about a month ago, and I read that, and was like, this is amazing.

It's nuts, isn't it, to think that these cutting edge scientists were doing this thing in the 70s, and yet it was there already in this mosque in Marrakesh, and there's one in Iran and somewhere else. There's these places with this pattern on the wall of the thing.

Of course, because I'm a writer, that gets me going. I'm like, **whoa, maybe the Islamic scholars of the 13th century were trying to communicate something to us in the modern era.**

Joanna: Before you go on, let's stop there because that exact point, **I call this ‘the seed,' because people are always like, where do your ideas come from?** I'm like —

These seeds of story are everywhere. You just have to notice them.

Luke: That's right.

Joanna: I feel like you and I, because we travel, that we find our seeds while we are traveling. You may never have stumbled—you might have stumbled across that on a YouTube video somehow—

But because you were in that place, I think it evoked story in your mind.

Luke: Yes, exactly right.

Joanna: So how do you then—I know that this is a book you're going to write—but how do you get from there? People are like, okay, sure, but that's not a book, is it?

Luke: Yes. So now this is the stage I'm at with this book. So **I'm just sitting on the idea, really. I'm not putting too much pressure on it.** I've got a few ideas now about how it will fit into what will happen, and also fit it into the series as well.

I know the characters that are coming into this. I obviously don't know the villain and some of the other villains, sort of henchmen, that are going to come in, but I know my characters. So I'm sort of jiggling it together.

I want part of it to take place in the United States, as well, because my characters haven't been there for a while, for a few books. So that's important. **It's a case of picking it together, but I've got a couple of scenes, and for me, that's how it starts.**

Stephen King writes about writing like discovering a dinosaur skeleton. I love that idea. I've discovered a bit, and I'm now there with my brush, brushing off this part. I don't know whether it's the face or the back or the leg or the tail, you know.

I've just got this one bit, and slowly I'll work in one direction, and maybe that will lead me to another part. Or I'll go, nope, it's not over there. Then I'll come back and go over to the other section, and the story will emerge in that way.

Joanna: Do you write in order or out of order?

Luke: I've got better at writing in order, but it's still not totally chronologically.

Joanna: I feel like this is also because we use multiple places. Like for *Spear of Destiny*, I've been in Washington DC like a couple of years before, and I was like, I have to use it because I expense that trip. Then I was like, I need to put it in a book. How on earth am I going to tie it to Vienna and Nuremberg and all of this?

So **I knew I had those scenes somewhere, but I didn't know what was going to happen**. It's almost like when you know you want to set things different places—like you said, I need some scenes in America—you almost can write different things and then figure out what on earth links them.

Luke: What I tend to do is —

I write the hero's part first, and then put the villain in afterwards.

I don't know if you do the same? I think your books are similar, where you have two or three scenes from the hero, and then like a cut scene from the villain where they're scheming in a dark lair somewhere.

Joanna: Or doing bad things.

Luke: Yes, whatever. They sort of offset each other, and so I'll quite often come back and put those in afterwards.

Joanna: Well, that's good. I think it's important for people to know that you don't have to write everything in order, and you can just figure it out. Also, some authors are worried about using real places in their books.

Where is your line between using real places and then fictionalizing things?

Luke: **The place is almost completely real in my books. I tend to be as real as I possibly can.** Not down to like the building, though, because I think you'll understand this as well. It winds people up if you say, “They walked for five minutes down the street and then they were outside the coffee shop.”

I won't say that because someone will email and say, “There's not a coffee shop on the street. That closed in in 2004.” So I don't get that specific.

In terms of the place, I try to get things specific, like what sort of public transport it is. I wrote a book in Riga, and in Riga, they've got these wonderful old school, Soviet-esque trams that clang and rumble around the city. So they had to feature in the book there.

There's sort of what the air is like. Is it a sea sort of air? Is it cold? Is it warm? Is it sandy? Desert-y? What's the sensation you'll get?

To set that book apart, I want the reader to know, if they're interested, that I've been there.

They see something more than I could have gleamed from a cookie cutter explanation of this place.

I suppose that's going to become ever more important, isn't it, that we've been to this place. **You write great authors’ notes as well, and that's something that's really important to me, is delving behind the story.**

Joanna: I think that's important because, actually, I do think ChatGPT and some of these other models can write very good descriptions of places. **The Author's Note, as you say, and our connection with our readers when we're kind of, “Look, here's me,” which is why selfies are important, “Here's me with the pyramids of Egypt.”**

Luke: Exactly right.

Joanna: So this was me.

Okay, well, talking of audiences, let's get into the publishing and marketing side. So on publishing, so I'm really interested in this because you are in KU for your ebooks, and this is something I still find difficult after all these years. So why make that decision? How does that work for you?

What is your main marketing in KU?

Luke: So why make that decision? **It's an 80-20 decision for me**. I have got X number of hours a day, not very many, same as everyone else, I suppose. I want to do other things too with my time.

So actually, **the best use of my time is to write the best book possible, and let Amazon do what they are really good at**, which is distributing the book to people. They do a great job at that. They've proven it for years and years and years, with thousands of data sets and all this sort of stuff.

I would love to not be exclusive, of course, and that would be fun to go on the other platforms. Yes, it does bother me that my book isn't available in every single country and these sorts of things.

I believe that in terms of getting my book into as many hands as possible, and as such, sustaining this as a career, etc, for now, that's the best way, if that makes sense.

Joanna: I will tell people that your books have a lot of reviews. This is something I say to people —

If you want a lot of reviews on Amazon, then being in KU is one of the ways to do that.

I see, obviously, that on all the books that are action adventure that are in KU, which is most of them, have a ton of reviews. So there are pros and cons.

You do have print books, you have audio, and you do have your own store for these other formats. So tell us about that.

Luke: So **I sell print books on the store**. I don't sell particularly many. I sell most of them in the UK, I think because when people outside of the UK see the delivery cost, it puts them off.

I like the idea of having a store, more than actually make any money from it or make anything from it at the moment. I don't feel like I've completely cracked it yet. Actually, that's probably the reason.

**There are frustrations from it, which I'm sure you have as well. Customer service is one.** People are like, “How do I get my book? Why haven't I got this?” Sales duty is another. My friend bought a book in Spain.

Joanna: Oh, Europe is the worst.

Luke: Oh, this book has cost him 70 euros in total, including the duty. He says he hope it's a really good one. Sorry, mate, you bought it now.

Joanna: It is, and that's actually something for people to keep in mind. For example, I had someone in Canada and there was a problem with something, and their duty they paid was ridiculous. So in the end, I paid that back from them.

It's exactly what you said. There are problems—well, let's say challenges—with it, but clearly you wanted to do something.

Is it that you're not doing any marketing to your store, which means it's not getting much traction?

Luke: I'm not doing any paid marketing to my store. I do paid marketing to the first in series on Amazon, and I try and keep that as simple as possible, so that I can see what the return on investment is very clearly.

I still sell a fair number of audiobooks. I sell the other series, which I do know my International Detective series has no direct marketing to it.

I sell quite a lot through Ingram Spark as well. I can only think that is because people see the advert on Facebook, they don't want to shop on Amazon, so they take it into Waterstones, or they look on Barnes and Noble or whatever, and they buy it there. That is great. It is a good way to do it, really.

With regard to the store, **I'm looking at people outside the author space** and trying stuff. I want to see what YouTubers, podcasters, and influencers are selling on their stores.

I'm thinking it's not books, if that makes sense. Like bespoke, unique experiences, stuff, things, I don't know. A few ideas, nothing yet. I'm going to test a few things this year and see what comes out.

Joanna: That's great. I also have had this on my list for a while, instead of trying to sell books. The crazy thing is, like I just bought a necklace, they got me on Instagram. It's a really nice necklace, and it wasn't expensive, but it was still more than the price of a book. I just bought it.

It was a one click purchase from a store. I didn't know them. They had good reviews. So I was like, okay, I'll buy that. It came and everything.

I was like, what makes people buy something that costs you 50 pounds from somebody they don't know, and then resist paying 20 pounds for a book from an author they like? Like, it's crazy.

Is it easier to sell non-books to people, and then upsell them on a book?

Luke: That is what I'm thinking. I'm trying to look at it in the way that a YouTuber would. Now, a YouTuber puts all their content on YouTube, and they don't bemoan the fact that they're exclusive to YouTube. They just put their content on there, and they get their payment from their ad clicks, or whatever it is, every month, and that's fine.

What they do have is, underneath the video, they have this bar. I'm following various people, and they're selling coffee, tin openers, hats, all sorts of things. Then I'm like, this is cool. This is great. I like this. I like this coffee.

Joanna: I do like the idea of selling coffee because I drink a lot of coffee!

Luke: Yes. So at the moment, I've got this idea of **potentially some of the sort of stuff you might find in one of the markets**. The cool, bespoke jewelry and funky textiles. There are small things that you can post, or whatever. A few things like that I'm going to try, and see how it goes, really. That's the testing phase.

Joanna: I like that, and I think we do need to think differently. One of the basic things, I mean, with KU for example, and in fact, page reads and sales. So with sales, Amazon hasn't changed the $9.99 cap ever.

We've had a $9.99 cap on ebooks since the beginning. So even with inflation, we can't charge more for a book.

Then the page reads, obviously generally trend downwards.

Then you think, well, look, with inflation, just the cost of living, we should be able to put prices up. But because of all the reasons, books remain the price they are. So therefore, as you're looking at it, it is about, well—

What else can we offer people that's interesting, where the price isn't so fixed?

Luke: That's exactly right. You might only get 0.1% of people want that thing, and that's fine. That's great because they're the person who's really interested in whatever that thing happens to be.

It could be, I don't know, an event, an online event, or something. There's a few ideas. I haven't pinned them down yet, but there's many ideas.

Joanna: I get that. Well, talking about marketing as well. So obviously, as I mentioned, you're coming on my Books and Travel Podcast, but you also have a new podcast. So tell us about that.

Why did you start the podcast, and what are you hoping to achieve?

Luke: Yes, it's called The Adventure Story Podcast. It's basically, if you like that idea that I told you about, the crystalline tiles in Morocco and how they preempted the breaking of the atom—or whatever you think it might be, the splitting of the atom—then this is the podcast that you will like. It's all about the stories behind my stories.

So episodes in series one, which will start in March, are on things like—and this is a true story Jo—the cursed Egyptian ghost on the London Underground. That's one. The truth behind the legend of the crystal skulls.

There's an episode on Cambodia from a guy who grew up there. In fact, he's really excited about that. There's one about lava tubes. The truth behind lava tubes. Oh, there's a few I've planned this week. A couple on the Templars as well.

It's all this sort of history. It's like an extended author's note in podcast form. That's what I'm going for.

Joanna: So why are you doing that? You said you do paid marketing to your first in series on Amazon. You have a business. You're doing well.

Why a podcast?

Luke: I think **trying to be more authentic is important to me.** **I want people to know me as the person behind the stories.**

It's important to for me to tell people, and I do this in my emails quite a lot, that by buying my book, by reviewing my book, by sharing my book, you're not just having the story, you're supporting me and my family and this house I'm standing in now.

**That still blows my mind, that the mortgage is paid by people buying books. It's wonderful.** It's an incredible thing. I want the people who read my books to be able to see that and see the real human me behind the story, and share on the adventures.

This podcast will share some of the travels my wife and I go on. We'll share some of the adventures we've had. We'll share the inspirations behind the books. We'll have other authors on as well to talk about the inspirations behind their books, too.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find you, and your books, and the podcast online?

Luke: By the time this goes out, The Adventure Story Podcast will be live as well. It will be on wherever you listen to podcasts, but also AdventureStoryPodcast.com. My website is LukeRichardsonAuthor.com.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Luke. That was great.

Luke: Thank you.
The post Writing Action Adventure And Traveling For Book Research With Luke Richardson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

supportonpatreon — **Kickstarter For Authors With Oriana Leckert** Feb 24, 2025
**How can you use Kickstarter to help bring your creative vision into reality?** What are some of the biggest mistakes authors make? What are some tips to ensure your campaign is a success? Oriana Leckert shares her expertise.

In the intro, AI-narrated audiobooks from ElevenLabs will now be accepted on Spotify through FindawayVoices; *A Midwinter Sacrifice* by J.F. Penn with my voice clone for the Author's Note on Spotify; BookVault introduce boxsets and slipcases; Managing your finances [Becca Syme]; How to write non-fiction [EOLU Podcast]; Thoughts on the Berlin film market; *Death Valley – A Thriller*.

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Types of Kickstarter campaigns for authors

Unique rewards to offer your backers

Biggest mistakes authors make for a campaign that doesn't fund

Bringing your own backers vs. discovery from Kickstarter

Tips for creating a visually pleasing page

The importance of a pre-launch page

Making sure your Kickstarter gets approved

Creating a detailed budget for your rewards

You can find Oriana and more about Kickstarter at Kickstarter.com/creators/publishing and Kickstarter.com/publishing.

Transcript of Interview with Oriana Leckert

Joanna: Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant. So welcome to the show, Oriana.

Oriana: Jo, I'm so excited to be here talking with you. Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. So first up, just in case—

What is Kickstarter, for anyone who doesn't know? What is your role there?

How did you become involved in the publishing side of things?

Oriana: Absolutely. So **Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform**. We are unique in the crowdfunding landscape for a few reasons. **We are only for creative projects**, so you can't use Kickstarter for medical bills, investment funding, charitable donations.

Every Kickstarter project has to create something new to share with the world.

Kickstarter is also a public benefit corporation, which is a sort of legal and business charter that turns us basically into a **mission-driven for-profit organization**. So our mission is to bring creative projects to life. Everything we do comes back to bringing more creativity into the world through that structure.

We are also quite a progressive company. We do 5% after-tax profit donations every year to organizations fighting systemic inequality and doing music and arts education. We are very transparent about our tax contributions, the salary difference between our CEO and the median staff salary.

So we do all sorts of things that make us, what I believe, **a really ethical place to be and a force for hopefully good in the world.**

My role is head of publishing. So I've been a Kickstarter six years, which is the longest I've been at any company, actually. I came here to grow our journalism category at the very end of 2018. I have done journalism, I've done comics, I've done publishing.

It, sort of unexpected to me, is the best job I've ever had. Which is slightly corny, but worth saying. I can't believe I get to do this work all the time. My background is about half and half digital media and traditional publishing, so I've spent most of my career fully focused on books and the written word in one way or another.

I generally describe my job here as **one part literary industry expert, one part crowdfunding consultant, one part life coach, and one part cheerleader**. So those are the various roles I get to play for my creators.

I also get to be out in the world all the time doing wonderful things like this, just kind of talking about Kickstarter and helping people get a better understanding of what it's for, how you can use it, the benefit for authors and creative people of all stripes.

Joanna: Oh, that's great. You are a cheerleader. I love your energy. You bring such a great energy.

I do feel like Kickstarter, obviously, is a company, but it does have that very creative feel. So I really appreciate that.

I've also met you a couple of times in Vegas over the last few years, and so I thought we'd start there. **What have you seen in terms of the changes in the author community over the last few years?**

What are the types of Kickstarter campaigns that authors do?

Obviously, we're not all Brandon Sanderson (whose campaign made over $41 million!).

Oriana: That's a great question. It's been pretty exciting. So I was hired by Margot Atwell, who held this role, also, for five or six years. I really see a pretty strong through line from her work to mine.

**The amount of change in perception** from authors, publishers, illustrators, toward Kickstarter, the shift has been absolutely massive.

I mean, certainly when Margot started, and even when I started, there was a lot of sort of bewilderment, hedging toward distrust, and people thought Kickstarter was just for desperate people who couldn't get a book deal through the traditional systems.

The change has been so dramatic of people understanding that —

Kickstarter can be transformative for an author's career —

and that it can work for traditional publishing, indie publishing, hybrid publishing, all kinds of authors.

I mean, obviously I'm in the bag for Kickstarter, but there are so many ways that it can be tremendously helpful. Kickstarter is really about collapsing the boundaries between a writer and their readers, a publisher and their fan base, any creative person and their audience.

There's so many benefits to doing that. You get to thrill your backers with new and exciting rewards. You get to turn what can be a sort of, not boring, but like just a standard book release, into a moment.

You get to build your brand, your profile, get press.

You get to test out ambitious projects. You get to understand so much more about your audience —

and what they want and how you can give it to them.

So, yes, going to shows like Author Nation, formerly 20Books, was a real revelation for me. Margot's work was mostly concentrated on the traditional publishing industry and **getting to know the people who are really driving forward indie publishing and self-publishing and owning their own author careers.**

It's been really marvelous getting to make a lot of inroads into that world and seeing the great success that people can have on our platform and outside of it.

Joanna: You mentioned there that you can thrill backers with new and exciting rewards, but I feel like many people listening might not even know what kind of rewards they would do. The word “reward”, it's quite a different word if people haven't been involved with Kickstarter.

For an author, what are the kind of rewards that people are doing?

Oriana: I love that question because, to me, the rewards are really like at the heart of the Kickstarter proposition and what makes this kind of fundraising so interesting and kind of thrilling.

Basically, Kickstarter, your process is that **you're inviting people on a creative journey**. You're saying, I'm going to make this cool thing. I want your support, and in exchange, you're going to get stuff. You're going to get to be part of my process.

Your main reward is going to be your book, or your series —

or, if you're a publishing company, your season. Whatever it is, that's your main tier, and then you're going to build everything else out above and below that.

Then a lot of people think the rewards means swag or merch, which is fine, but **merch can really add a lot to your production costs**. It's causing you to learn how to produce all kinds of things that maybe you've never done before.

So that's not the only way to do it. If you're going to do some merch, I think it's nice to come up with some custom items that feel really related to the work that you're doing.

If you've got a romance novel with a pivotal scene on the beach, maybe you make some candles that smell like the ocean. Maybe you do some kind of handkerchief that's printed with the pattern of the dress that your heroine is wearing.

You can really think beyond merch, into **digital rewards, experiential rewards.** There's a lot of parts of the writing process that can be sort of like pulled out and packaged as rewards. Things like notes from the field, outtakes, deleted scenes.

I've had people write bloopers, as if it were like a comedy movie, like added new scenes or novellas, other pieces from different works that you've done. Certainly, **your back list and other books that you've written, those can all be included**. We've seen people do tours of the writer’s studio, things like that.

Also think about **what skills you have in addition to your writing**. Perhaps you are excellent at marketing, or social media, or poetry. You can offer webinars on those sorts of things, other kinds of ways that people can experience the creative practice that you have.

Then you can get into like **high-end exclusive one-off, crazy rewards**. One whole section of rewards I love is naming rights. We've seen all kinds of “We'll name the dragon after your dog. We'll name the illness after your mother in law. We'll name the hero after your son.”

There's a LitRPG novelist named Matt Dinniman, who did this really well. He writes these big cast, you know, there's dungeons, and you're in an intergalactic reality TV show with hundreds of characters. So in his last campaign, for $666 he will kill you off in his next book, and for $777 he'd let you live. He'll write a whole scene around you personally and that sort of thing.

So those are just some. I mean, you can do book release parties. You can do book clubs. If you're writing children's books, you can do **coloring pages or supplemental material for teachers or other educators.**

The sky is really the limit, and it is based on your creativity —

and the things that both you can make and that your audience wants. So this is another opportunity to talk to them.

Ask them, if I'm going to do a piece of swag, would you rather have an enamel pin or makeup bag? If I'm going to do alternate covers, would you like the blue cover or the red cover? See what your people are interested in, and then figure out whether it's possible for you to deliver it to them?

Joanna: Wow, so many ideas there. I feel like this is part of the game, is that if someone's listening and they're like, “oh, that sounds great,” well—

You need to get on Kickstarter and start backing things and understanding how it works.

It's quite different. People think, oh, it's just like an Amazon or whatever, it's just not.

Oriana: My number one piece of advice for anyone who's even a little bit Kickstarter curious, **get on the site and back some projects**, even just for a buck or two. Follow the creators out in the world, watch what people are doing.

I often say this, but I am an expert in Kickstarter because I stare at Kickstarter all day long. You too can stare at Kickstarter all day long. You can follow everybody. You can look at what people have done and what's worked and what hasn't.

Find all the best tricks, steal them for your own.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery and all that. It is absolutely the best way to get good at Kickstarter, just like immerse yourself in this strange and lovely world and see how everybody else is doing it, and do it better.

Joanna: I mean, I now buy a lot of just ebooks.

I mean, I buy a lot of beautiful print with foil and all this, but I also just buy ebooks. They're kind of a similar price as you might get on some of the other platforms. So people can do that.

I think you mentioned the book being the main offering, and people might think, well, that's the paperback. But **you can do ebook, you can do audiobook, you can do bundles, you can do series**, as you said. So there's so many options.

So obviously things have changed over the last few years, but—

Have you got any numbers on how big the Kickstarter industry is now with publishing?

Or anything you can share around that?

Oriana: I would love to tell you. So first I'll tell you, Kickstarter overall, by the numbers since our inception, there have been **273,000 projects funded, eight and a half billion dollars pledged, from more than 24 million backers.**

In publishing specifically, we've had 69,000 projects launched, 3.2 million unique backers, and over $380 million pledged to campaigns. I have lots of other stats, but a few things I'll share here.

**The publishing category has grown year over year,** every year since 2017, in terms of number of projects launched, number of projects successful, and the overall percent of success rate. There has never been a dip since 2017, so for over a decade.

Another stat that I really love about the publishing category, **if you look at campaigns that have at least 25 backers, the overall success rate is 84%**. I think that's really telling because 25 backers, that's like a little bit more than your mom, your best friend, the folks who are essentially obligated to support anything that you do.

So if you can get a little bit beyond that sort of inner circle, your chances of succeeding on the platform are tremendously high. Another thing that I wanted to call out, I just got some new numbers around this, **the average backing amount per backer across the whole category has nearly doubled since 2020.**

So we used to see an average backing around $40, and it's currently at $72 per backer. I think this is clearly around the trend of special and deluxe editions, but it's a great indication that —

The backer behavior on Kickstarter is just very different than your general book buying public.

**People don't come here looking for 99 cent ebooks,** the lowest bargain basement prices.

Folks are really willing to pay more because they understand that this is a different kind. It's not exactly a purchase, **it really is supporting bringing a strange and wonderful new thing into the world that wouldn't exist before.**

**People are also much more forgiving about timeline**. If you buy something from most online booksellers, you're expecting to have it in your hands within a couple of days. People wait months, and sometimes years, to get their Kickstarter rewards, and they don't mind if the creator is clear and transparent.

You're also doing the work of **demystifying the publishing process**. Why does it take so long? Where are books printed? How long does it take them to ship via freight over the ocean? What do all these things really look like?

So it's really interesting just figuring out what your backers want and will bear, versus the general book buying public out in the world.

Joanna: Absolutely, and that's why we have fewer backers than we might sell total books on other platforms. As you said, they do spend more money and we can do higher quality and more interesting products. Obviously there, you mentioned that not every campaign actually funds.

What are some of the top mistakes you see that mean the campaign doesn't fund or there are other issues?

Oriana: The biggest mistake I think authors make, or any creator, is overestimating their abilities to reach their crowd. I think **making sure that your ambition matches your reach is the number one most important thing** to like come close to guaranteeing that you will be successful.

If you are an emerging writer, and you're still building your audience, and you don't have that many followers or subscribers out in the world, you should not try to fund a multi-volume, leather bound omnibus.

Do a real, honest assessment of who's in your crowd, how to find them, what percentage of them are likely to support what you're doing —

and then find a project that feels realistic based on those numbers. That's really the biggest thing, sort of conceptually.

As far as tips for a project page, again, back campaigns, look at what other people are doing.

**A project page can be either as simple or as complicated as you want to make it**. You definitely want, obviously, to talk about the book, what is in it. Do a trope card, if you want. We're seeing those all over the site.

Just what kind of book it is, and like **specs. Also, page count, trim size, cover design**. Obviously, if you're doing a special edition, exactly what sorts of bells and whistles, with a prototype, if you can.

Then you can be really expansive from there. **What are your inspirations? Who are your collaborators? What brought you to this work?** What are some of the things that make you excited about your writing practice? Your timeline, your budget. What made you choose these rewards and how are you going to produce them?

All those sorts of things will make backers feel both more trusting that you will do the things that you're promising, and just more excited to be part of your journey.

Joanna: So just to be clear with what you said at the beginning. So somebody, they're a new writer—and I've seen several authors fail this way—they want to do some gorgeous book, and they put a level of $25,000 is what they want, but they don't necessarily have an email list or anything.

When I saw this particular person I'm thinking of, I saw that and was like, there's no way that's going to fund. So what is the problem with people that are kind of expecting Kickstarter to bring people? So maybe just talk about—

What's the split between what Kickstarter does with discovery and then what the author has to bring?

Oriana: Yes, absolutely. So we track backer behavior, obviously, all across the site and category by category.

In your Creator dashboard, if you run a campaign, you will see a breakdown of what percentage of backers are coming through your efforts and who are coming through the Kickstarter ecosystem.

**In publishing, an average is about 30% are coming through Kickstarter.** That can be like 20% to maybe 40%, depending on how much exposure your project winds up getting. So that's not nothing.

Being on Kickstarter will help you grow your audience, but it's definitely not everything. You really do need to bring your people first.

Our algorithm works on attention.

So any project that's getting clicks, getting backings, getting comments, our algorithm says, “Oh, people want to look at this. We will expose it to more and more people.” That means raising it up in search results, slotting it into various of the macros and carousels around the site.

**Our recommendation engine powers recommended projects on the top of campaigns, at the bottom of emails**. We are doing a lot to make sure that projects are being surfaced to folks who want to see them.

We actually are doing some significant backer-focused work this year on improving our search results, improving our recommendation engine. We're really working to make sure that people are finding the projects that they are going to be excited by.

Joanna: So, I mean, and this is something I think is quite different, it is very visual. The story page, the sales page. There's a main visual.

There's kind of two fields, the header field, and then a very small description field and then the image. That's what's really surfaced around Kickstarter, isn't it?

Any tips for the image and those text boxes for SEO purposes?

Oriana: Yes, totally. So SEO is important, but it is not as crucial. **We can always tell when people are coming to us from KU** because rather than the title of the book, their project subject says, “Reverse harem, lesbians on Mars, with an enemies to lover subplot.” You know, you don't have to do that on Kickstarter.

Keywords are important, but it's not the same. It's much more about, **what is this project? Who is it for?** So I would, of course, absolutely maximize your title and your subtitle to get as much information as possible.

Then exactly as you said, I mean, imagine somebody looking at your project on their phone. They're going to see **the title, subtitle, the project image, maybe one sentence.** That's also what they're going to see in a tweet, in a search result, in a newsletter thumbnail.

So those elements are really, really important, and you want with just those four items to sort of bring everybody in and get them excited to click through.

For the project image, we recommend one full bleed image. Maybe it's your cover, your cover image, or like one gorgeous illustration from the book.

Or if you've got a series, maybe a stack of books.

We don't recommend larding up that image with a whole lot of text. Remember it's going to show up next to your title, the title of your project.

So if the title of your project is the title of your book, and the title of your book is also written on the book cover, you don't also need a text bubble that says the book title on top of that project image.

Sometimes people try to cram a whole lot of very salesy text onto that image. It not only like makes the image pop less and makes it less interesting, it also is very difficult to read when that shows up thumbnail sized on a search page or a social post.

So **concentrate on making like a bright, exciting image that isn't too overloaded with many tiny elements**.

Joanna: And then the video. I wanted to ask about this because on Kickstarter it says you really should do a video. So why is that?

Any tips on the sales video?

Oriana: **We definitely do see a preference for videos**. It's, again, probably the tiktokization and the pivot to video all around the internet. Kickstarter is on the internet. It's a visual medium. People like videos these days.

That said, **if the video is the main stumbling block keeping you off the platform, I am here to tell you that you don't have to do one**. Plenty of projects fund extremely well without having a video. So if that's the calculation that you're making, just have beautiful imagery and you'll be fine.

That said, **if you are going to do a video, it needs to be short, bright and compelling**. Especially on the publishing side, we see about **50% of potential backers stop watching after one minute**, and everybody else is gone after the second minute.

So you don't need to undertake some massive Hollywood production style situation that's going to cost you tons of time and money. Much better to do just kind of like a direct to camera. It is nice to show your face if you feel comfortable doing so.

Just a teaser. **Talk a little bit about who you are, what you're doing, ask for people's support,** and say that you hope they click in and read through the whole rest of your story.

Joanna: So, and this is a tough one, because I've done different kinds of videos, now coming up for my fifth campaign.

For the fiction, I did do one for Blood Vintage which is like a book trailer. So it goes straight into the sort of thriller book trailer, and then I put on my face afterwards, and I'm telling them about the book.

On my nonfiction ones, I've really just done, sort of as you said, a face to camera.

Is there any data on what kind of video people prefer? For fiction, is a book trailer better than a direct to camera, or vice versa?

Oriana: That's not the kind of data that we do or possibly even could collect. I think it's more a question of **knowing your audience, knowing what they want, and what is going to fit the best.** I mean, I think that's really smart that you've done it slightly differently for your fiction versus nonfiction.

Whatever you think is going to be the best representation of this particular work, that's what you should go with.

Joanna: I guess I think about it from my perspective as a backer. With fiction—and it's terrible to say, but it's true—I often don't care so much about the author, I want the story.

**I've bought a ton of fiction off Kickstarter without knowing the author,** whereas I feel like the nonfiction I've bought, I've actually known the author, so I'm more interested in the author. So that's just, I guess, my personal behavior.

Oriana: Sure, but your personal behavior is probably fairly telling about a broader book buying population. So I think that makes a lot of sense.

Joanna: It's good to know though. I mean, for people listening, look, there's no structure for it. In fact, the very first video I did, I went to Russell Nohelty's bestselling page and I deconstructed his video. I literally wrote it down, and then I followed his script with my stuff.

Oriana: That's a great way to do it.

Joanna: I think to **find someone who's successful and model them**, I think that's always a good trick.

Oriana: Yes, absolutely.

Joanna: Okay, so let's just talk about some of the other aspects. So the pre-launch page, this is something that seems to be very important.

Talk about the pre-launch page.

Oriana: Absolutely. It's a new feature. We've released it—gosh, what is time—last year or the year before. It has really changed the way that people are doing the kind of period before they launch.

[Check out my pre-launch page at JFPenn.com/deathvalley — which will become the main sales page on launch.]

So a pre-launch page, it's a cover page. It lives at the same URL where your campaign will ultimately go. It's simplified, and it is designed to generate followers.

So **anybody who follows the pre-launch page is going to get a system email from Kickstarter as soon as you launch**. We see a very high conversion over the life of the project, from pre-launch followers to project backers, sometimes 40 or 50%. Most of them tend to do it right away.

The work that you do to promote that pre-launch page and get your follower count up is going to pay off very handsomely once you launch.

It really helps you have a **strong first day**, which is excellent for morale, excellent for messaging, good for the overall percentage chance of success on the project.

So, as I said, this is still new-ish. We don't have a huge amount of data about it, but **I recommend a pre-launch period of at least two weeks**. We've seen some people do it for weeks, months, even in a few cases, over a year.

I think in the best case, that pre-launch period is sort of a crescendo into the burst of launch. So if you urge someone to get excited and follow this page, which they do, and then six months later they get an email that the campaign is live now, I think you've really diluted the excitement that they had when they first came on board.

Everyone should do what works for them and their timeline and their project, but definitely don't skip that as a step.

**Spend some time promoting that pre-launch page**, getting up your follower count. It will really, really, really help once you go live.

Joanna: For people listening, my pre-launch page is at JFPenn.com/DeathValley. Depending on when people are listening, it might well be live, or it might be in the future.

So when I did my first campaign, obviously you don't know when you first start all the things you kind of have to do. There's obviously KYC, know your customer, that Kickstarter has to do. So if people are going to set up their pre-launch page, how long will it take and—

What do people need to set up so that Kickstarter knows they can be approved?

Oriana: So there's two different approvals.

The KYC stuff is done by Stripe, our payment processor. **I would give yourself lots of extra time for these approvals. It usually only takes a day or two**. Sometimes you get an automatic approval, but don't leave that to the very end.

Make sure you get your bank details, your ID, all of that information up and sent over to Stripe well before you need to, well before it comes to crunch time.

As far as **the Kickstarter approval process, that too can be automatic or it can take up to a few days**. We do want, especially for first time authors or first time creators, the trust and safety team who reviews the projects wants to **see pretty much a final draft when they're approving it.**

You can't put up your pre-launch page until the project is approved. For serial creators in good standing, we are making some allowances where people can get that pre-launch page up before the approval process.

Especially when you're starting out on the platform, it's good practice to like have your campaign more or less finalized, so that the reviewers can see everything that you'll be doing. Then you can get that pre-launch page up at that point.

Joanna: Yes, because —

When you put up the rewards and things, you have to have costed it all out.

You have to say, like, how much people need to pledge, and you need to know things like your shipping details. So let's get a bit more into those finances.

Earlier, you mentioned that adding merch can add a lot of money and lot of cost to a campaign. Of course, if you don't know how much it's going to cost even just to print your book, say, with foil or sprayed edges, or whatever, you can't cost it out either.

What are some of the issues that people find with finances around Kickstarter?

Oriana: I cannot stress enough **the importance of doing a full, real, detailed budget**. That doesn't mean vaguely guessing how much you think it might cost to print a book. Really, **actually get samples, figure out all of your processes.**

Budget, not just for print production, but for bubble wrap and tape, for pens and stickers. For all of the things that you are going to be producing in your rewards and also budget contingency plans.

Think about all the things that might go wrong.

Make sure you're doing a really, really detailed job of understanding all of your costs. It's good that you mentioned Russell before. There's a publishing creator tips page, that's kickstarter.com/creators/publishing.

There's a whole lot of resources there for all kinds of different projects and different elements of the crowdfunding process. One piece is a budgeting article by Russell. It's got a worksheet in it and details all of these things that we're talking about. So I absolutely recommend using that as a guide when you're setting out your budget.

One thing about it that I love is that he also says, **“Include a little bit of money to do a nice thing for yourself.**” For him, he gets a tattoo of one of his characters after every successful campaign.

So maybe for you, that's getting a manicure or a massage or a nice dinner or a new book, but do do something sweet for yourself. That's a nice way to give yourself a reward at the end of what can be a pretty intense process.

Joanna: Yes, it is intense. It's funny because I was scared about it before I pressed that button on the first time, but I feel like **what I love about the Kickstarter thing is that it's a real launch period.**

I feel like one of the most tiring things for authors is the constant need to do marketing, whereas with Kickstarter campaign, you can be like, okay, I'm going to really push hard for this couple of weeks, or a few weeks before that. **Push hard, do all my marketing, and then I can go into fulfillment, and I can ease off a bit**.

I feel like this is more surge marketing, isn't it?

Oriana: Yes. I think that's an excellent way to describe it, for sure.

That's definitely the Kickstarter proposition. You know, look, **I will be screaming from the rooftops about this project for 30 days, and then I will stop talking about it.**

Joanna: Yes, and you can't have it. Well, there won't be a thing anymore.

Oriana: Exactly, exactly.

Joanna: Well, then on that, I guess once we have finished, the campaign closes, and Kickstarter collects the money, and we get the money in a couple of weeks’ time.

We also have to fulfill the stuff, which is, all the shipping and all of that. One thing that I've seen people be confused about is around taxes.

So any clarification on who pays the tax?

Oriana: So I am actually not allowed to give tax advice, as I am absolutely not an accountant. I would say you should certainly talk to your accountant about what you're doing on Kickstarter and how you should report that and what that's all going to mean.

This is a reasonable point to note that, as we are recording this on February 13th, yesterday, Kickstarter announced a whole bunch of new features that we have been working on for a long time, and we are in the process of rolling out. Including a lot of post campaign tools that we've never had before.

We're doing an internal **pledge management system**. That is something that people have been asking us for probably over a decade. There are many elements to that, but **one thing that we are going to be doing in the future is we're going to be helping everybody with tax and VAT collection.**

So that's something that's coming soon, and **we're going to do our best to help demystify a massively complicated process.**

Joanna: It is. Well, then I'll say, from my perspective, I know what taxes I have to pay, and I make sure I pay them after I get the money from Kickstarter. So as far as I'm concerned —

Paying tax is my responsibility as the creator.

What else then is coming? Or things that perhaps authors aren't using enough yet?

Oriana: Well, so last year, we released **late pledges. This means, as like it says on the tin, once the campaign is closed, you can still collect additional backing**. There's some caveats with that. We don't want to undermine that sort of now or never, all or nothing, do or die situation.

So our recommendations for late pledges, they're most effective in two to seven days after the campaign has closed. The final 48 hours of a campaign are really strong. You know, that's when all of that FOMO really kicks in. So a lot of marketing happens, a lot of outreach, a lot of just like traffic.

So inevitably, no matter how hard you have been pushing this project, the day after your campaign closes, three people are going to email you and say, “Well, I didn't know you had a live campaign.” So **late pledges are really for them to still be able to get on board, even though they missed all of the main part of the activity.**

We also recommend you do not have all of your rewards available in late pledges, and those that you do, cost more. So again, you want to make sure that all of that talk you've been doing during the campaign of like, “This is your only chance to get this book, at this price, at this specificity,” has not been made into a lie by late pledges.

Then also with late pledges, they don't get to stay up forever. At some point you do say, now I am going to press, so I'm going to turn them off. So that's how late pledges are designed to work.

Some other really cool features that we've just announced, and again, as I said, we announced this yesterday. So I don't have a ton more information, although I should tell you where to go to find it. I mean, we've got pop ups and things all over the site about it.

Well, it's a slightly cumbersome URL, updates.kickstarter.com/kickstarters-2025-product-roadmap with some hyphens. I don't know if you have show notes.

Joanna: I'll put a link in the show notes.

Oriana: Excellent. That would be great. That's where we lay out the sort of overview of all of the stuff that we're working on this year.

Some things that I will just call out, we are in beta currently for a **payment plan. It's called Pledge Over Time.** That allows backers for rewards above a certain dollar amount, I think it's $125, to make their pledge in four payments, rather than all at once.

We are working on secret rewards, which, this is also still in beta. Creators can get a direct link to a reward that's not listed in the campaign and send that to specific groups of backers.

So we have a lot more features planned for this year. We're trying to make things that people have been asking for. This also means, **if there's a feature that you want Kickstarter to have that we currently don't, write into our support team and tell them.**

A lot of the things that we have developed over the years have come directly from so many people asking for it that we realized we just had to do it. So please tell us what you want, and maybe it'll come to life.

Joanna: Brilliant.

Where can people find Kickstarter for Publishing and any other help online?

Oriana: Yes, kickstarter.com/publishing is where all of the publishing projects are. I mentioned that creator tips page, kickstarter.com/creators/publishing. We are all over the socials. We are everywhere that you can find us.

Oh, another thing we also just rolled out is a whole new learning lab curriculum, which is a video series of every element of your Kickstarter project.

It is probably geared a bit more toward like larger sort of design and tech and gadget and games creators, but I'm sure that there are really, really relevant tips for publishers and publishing folks in there as well.

We're trying to give as much help as possible. We want everybody to succeed. Of course, a rising tide lifts all boats, which is foundational to the Kickstarter ethos.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Oriana. That was great.

The post Kickstarter For Authors With Oriana Leckert first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Kickstarter For Authors With Oriana Leckert** Feb 24, 2025
**How can you use Kickstarter to help bring your creative vision into reality?** What are some of the biggest mistakes authors make? What are some tips to ensure your campaign is a success? Oriana Leckert shares her expertise.

In the intro, AI-narrated audiobooks from ElevenLabs will now be accepted on Spotify through FindawayVoices; *A Midwinter Sacrifice* by J.F. Penn with my voice clone for the Author's Note on Spotify; BookVault introduce boxsets and slipcases; Managing your finances [Becca Syme]; How to write non-fiction [EOLU Podcast]; Thoughts on the Berlin film market; *Death Valley – A Thriller*.

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Types of Kickstarter campaigns for authors

Unique rewards to offer your backers

Biggest mistakes authors make for a campaign that doesn't fund

Bringing your own backers vs. discovery from Kickstarter

Tips for creating a visually pleasing page

The importance of a pre-launch page

Making sure your Kickstarter gets approved

Creating a detailed budget for your rewards

You can find Oriana and more about Kickstarter at Kickstarter.com/creators/publishing and Kickstarter.com/publishing.

Transcript of Interview with Oriana Leckert

Joanna: Oriana Leckert is the head of publishing at Kickstarter, as well as an author, freelance writer, editor, and consultant. So welcome to the show, Oriana.

Oriana: Jo, I'm so excited to be here talking with you. Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. So first up, just in case—

What is Kickstarter, for anyone who doesn't know? What is your role there?

How did you become involved in the publishing side of things?

Oriana: Absolutely. So **Kickstarter is a crowdfunding platform**. We are unique in the crowdfunding landscape for a few reasons. **We are only for creative projects**, so you can't use Kickstarter for medical bills, investment funding, charitable donations.

Every Kickstarter project has to create something new to share with the world.

Kickstarter is also a public benefit corporation, which is a sort of legal and business charter that turns us basically into a **mission-driven for-profit organization**. So our mission is to bring creative projects to life. Everything we do comes back to bringing more creativity into the world through that structure.

We are also quite a progressive company. We do 5% after-tax profit donations every year to organizations fighting systemic inequality and doing music and arts education. We are very transparent about our tax contributions, the salary difference between our CEO and the median staff salary.

So we do all sorts of things that make us, what I believe, **a really ethical place to be and a force for hopefully good in the world.**

My role is head of publishing. So I've been a Kickstarter six years, which is the longest I've been at any company, actually. I came here to grow our journalism category at the very end of 2018. I have done journalism, I've done comics, I've done publishing.

It, sort of unexpected to me, is the best job I've ever had. Which is slightly corny, but worth saying. I can't believe I get to do this work all the time. My background is about half and half digital media and traditional publishing, so I've spent most of my career fully focused on books and the written word in one way or another.

I generally describe my job here as **one part literary industry expert, one part crowdfunding consultant, one part life coach, and one part cheerleader**. So those are the various roles I get to play for my creators.

I also get to be out in the world all the time doing wonderful things like this, just kind of talking about Kickstarter and helping people get a better understanding of what it's for, how you can use it, the benefit for authors and creative people of all stripes.

Joanna: Oh, that's great. You are a cheerleader. I love your energy. You bring such a great energy.

I do feel like Kickstarter, obviously, is a company, but it does have that very creative feel. So I really appreciate that.

I've also met you a couple of times in Vegas over the last few years, and so I thought we'd start there. **What have you seen in terms of the changes in the author community over the last few years?**

What are the types of Kickstarter campaigns that authors do?

Obviously, we're not all Brandon Sanderson (whose campaign made over $41 million!).

Oriana: That's a great question. It's been pretty exciting. So I was hired by Margot Atwell, who held this role, also, for five or six years. I really see a pretty strong through line from her work to mine.

**The amount of change in perception** from authors, publishers, illustrators, toward Kickstarter, the shift has been absolutely massive.

I mean, certainly when Margot started, and even when I started, there was a lot of sort of bewilderment, hedging toward distrust, and people thought Kickstarter was just for desperate people who couldn't get a book deal through the traditional systems.

The change has been so dramatic of people understanding that —

Kickstarter can be transformative for an author's career —

and that it can work for traditional publishing, indie publishing, hybrid publishing, all kinds of authors.

I mean, obviously I'm in the bag for Kickstarter, but there are so many ways that it can be tremendously helpful. Kickstarter is really about collapsing the boundaries between a writer and their readers, a publisher and their fan base, any creative person and their audience.

There's so many benefits to doing that. You get to thrill your backers with new and exciting rewards. You get to turn what can be a sort of, not boring, but like just a standard book release, into a moment.

You get to build your brand, your profile, get press.

You get to test out ambitious projects. You get to understand so much more about your audience —

and what they want and how you can give it to them.

So, yes, going to shows like Author Nation, formerly 20Books, was a real revelation for me. Margot's work was mostly concentrated on the traditional publishing industry and **getting to know the people who are really driving forward indie publishing and self-publishing and owning their own author careers.**

It's been really marvelous getting to make a lot of inroads into that world and seeing the great success that people can have on our platform and outside of it.

Joanna: You mentioned there that you can thrill backers with new and exciting rewards, but I feel like many people listening might not even know what kind of rewards they would do. The word “reward”, it's quite a different word if people haven't been involved with Kickstarter.

For an author, what are the kind of rewards that people are doing?

Oriana: I love that question because, to me, the rewards are really like at the heart of the Kickstarter proposition and what makes this kind of fundraising so interesting and kind of thrilling.

Basically, Kickstarter, your process is that **you're inviting people on a creative journey**. You're saying, I'm going to make this cool thing. I want your support, and in exchange, you're going to get stuff. You're going to get to be part of my process.

Your main reward is going to be your book, or your series —

or, if you're a publishing company, your season. Whatever it is, that's your main tier, and then you're going to build everything else out above and below that.

Then a lot of people think the rewards means swag or merch, which is fine, but **merch can really add a lot to your production costs**. It's causing you to learn how to produce all kinds of things that maybe you've never done before.

So that's not the only way to do it. If you're going to do some merch, I think it's nice to come up with some custom items that feel really related to the work that you're doing.

If you've got a romance novel with a pivotal scene on the beach, maybe you make some candles that smell like the ocean. Maybe you do some kind of handkerchief that's printed with the pattern of the dress that your heroine is wearing.

You can really think beyond merch, into **digital rewards, experiential rewards.** There's a lot of parts of the writing process that can be sort of like pulled out and packaged as rewards. Things like notes from the field, outtakes, deleted scenes.

I've had people write bloopers, as if it were like a comedy movie, like added new scenes or novellas, other pieces from different works that you've done. Certainly, **your back list and other books that you've written, those can all be included**. We've seen people do tours of the writer’s studio, things like that.

Also think about **what skills you have in addition to your writing**. Perhaps you are excellent at marketing, or social media, or poetry. You can offer webinars on those sorts of things, other kinds of ways that people can experience the creative practice that you have.

Then you can get into like **high-end exclusive one-off, crazy rewards**. One whole section of rewards I love is naming rights. We've seen all kinds of “We'll name the dragon after your dog. We'll name the illness after your mother in law. We'll name the hero after your son.”

There's a LitRPG novelist named Matt Dinniman, who did this really well. He writes these big cast, you know, there's dungeons, and you're in an intergalactic reality TV show with hundreds of characters. So in his last campaign, for $666 he will kill you off in his next book, and for $777 he'd let you live. He'll write a whole scene around you personally and that sort of thing.

So those are just some. I mean, you can do book release parties. You can do book clubs. If you're writing children's books, you can do **coloring pages or supplemental material for teachers or other educators.**

The sky is really the limit, and it is based on your creativity —

and the things that both you can make and that your audience wants. So this is another opportunity to talk to them.

Ask them, if I'm going to do a piece of swag, would you rather have an enamel pin or makeup bag? If I'm going to do alternate covers, would you like the blue cover or the red cover? See what your people are interested in, and then figure out whether it's possible for you to deliver it to them?

Joanna: Wow, so many ideas there. I feel like this is part of the game, is that if someone's listening and they're like, “oh, that sounds great,” well—

You need to get on Kickstarter and start backing things and understanding how it works.

It's quite different. People think, oh, it's just like an Amazon or whatever, it's just not.

Oriana: My number one piece of advice for anyone who's even a little bit Kickstarter curious, **get on the site and back some projects**, even just for a buck or two. Follow the creators out in the world, watch what people are doing.

I often say this, but I am an expert in Kickstarter because I stare at Kickstarter all day long. You too can stare at Kickstarter all day long. You can follow everybody. You can look at what people have done and what's worked and what hasn't.

Find all the best tricks, steal them for your own.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery and all that. It is absolutely the best way to get good at Kickstarter, just like immerse yourself in this strange and lovely world and see how everybody else is doing it, and do it better.

Joanna: I mean, I now buy a lot of just ebooks.

I mean, I buy a lot of beautiful print with foil and all this, but I also just buy ebooks. They're kind of a similar price as you might get on some of the other platforms. So people can do that.

I think you mentioned the book being the main offering, and people might think, well, that's the paperback. But **you can do ebook, you can do audiobook, you can do bundles, you can do series**, as you said. So there's so many options.

So obviously things have changed over the last few years, but—

Have you got any numbers on how big the Kickstarter industry is now with publishing?

Or anything you can share around that?

Oriana: I would love to tell you. So first I'll tell you, Kickstarter overall, by the numbers since our inception, there have been **273,000 projects funded, eight and a half billion dollars pledged, from more than 24 million backers.**

In publishing specifically, we've had 69,000 projects launched, 3.2 million unique backers, and over $380 million pledged to campaigns. I have lots of other stats, but a few things I'll share here.

**The publishing category has grown year over year,** every year since 2017, in terms of number of projects launched, number of projects successful, and the overall percent of success rate. There has never been a dip since 2017, so for over a decade.

Another stat that I really love about the publishing category, **if you look at campaigns that have at least 25 backers, the overall success rate is 84%**. I think that's really telling because 25 backers, that's like a little bit more than your mom, your best friend, the folks who are essentially obligated to support anything that you do.

So if you can get a little bit beyond that sort of inner circle, your chances of succeeding on the platform are tremendously high. Another thing that I wanted to call out, I just got some new numbers around this, **the average backing amount per backer across the whole category has nearly doubled since 2020.**

So we used to see an average backing around $40, and it's currently at $72 per backer. I think this is clearly around the trend of special and deluxe editions, but it's a great indication that —

The backer behavior on Kickstarter is just very different than your general book buying public.

**People don't come here looking for 99 cent ebooks,** the lowest bargain basement prices.

Folks are really willing to pay more because they understand that this is a different kind. It's not exactly a purchase, **it really is supporting bringing a strange and wonderful new thing into the world that wouldn't exist before.**

**People are also much more forgiving about timeline**. If you buy something from most online booksellers, you're expecting to have it in your hands within a couple of days. People wait months, and sometimes years, to get their Kickstarter rewards, and they don't mind if the creator is clear and transparent.

You're also doing the work of **demystifying the publishing process**. Why does it take so long? Where are books printed? How long does it take them to ship via freight over the ocean? What do all these things really look like?

So it's really interesting just figuring out what your backers want and will bear, versus the general book buying public out in the world.

Joanna: Absolutely, and that's why we have fewer backers than we might sell total books on other platforms. As you said, they do spend more money and we can do higher quality and more interesting products. Obviously there, you mentioned that not every campaign actually funds.

What are some of the top mistakes you see that mean the campaign doesn't fund or there are other issues?

Oriana: The biggest mistake I think authors make, or any creator, is overestimating their abilities to reach their crowd. I think **making sure that your ambition matches your reach is the number one most important thing** to like come close to guaranteeing that you will be successful.

If you are an emerging writer, and you're still building your audience, and you don't have that many followers or subscribers out in the world, you should not try to fund a multi-volume, leather bound omnibus.

Do a real, honest assessment of who's in your crowd, how to find them, what percentage of them are likely to support what you're doing —

and then find a project that feels realistic based on those numbers. That's really the biggest thing, sort of conceptually.

As far as tips for a project page, again, back campaigns, look at what other people are doing.

**A project page can be either as simple or as complicated as you want to make it**. You definitely want, obviously, to talk about the book, what is in it. Do a trope card, if you want. We're seeing those all over the site.

Just what kind of book it is, and like **specs. Also, page count, trim size, cover design**. Obviously, if you're doing a special edition, exactly what sorts of bells and whistles, with a prototype, if you can.

Then you can be really expansive from there. **What are your inspirations? Who are your collaborators? What brought you to this work?** What are some of the things that make you excited about your writing practice? Your timeline, your budget. What made you choose these rewards and how are you going to produce them?

All those sorts of things will make backers feel both more trusting that you will do the things that you're promising, and just more excited to be part of your journey.

Joanna: So just to be clear with what you said at the beginning. So somebody, they're a new writer—and I've seen several authors fail this way—they want to do some gorgeous book, and they put a level of $25,000 is what they want, but they don't necessarily have an email list or anything.

When I saw this particular person I'm thinking of, I saw that and was like, there's no way that's going to fund. So what is the problem with people that are kind of expecting Kickstarter to bring people? So maybe just talk about—

What's the split between what Kickstarter does with discovery and then what the author has to bring?

Oriana: Yes, absolutely. So we track backer behavior, obviously, all across the site and category by category.

In your Creator dashboard, if you run a campaign, you will see a breakdown of what percentage of backers are coming through your efforts and who are coming through the Kickstarter ecosystem.

**In publishing, an average is about 30% are coming through Kickstarter.** That can be like 20% to maybe 40%, depending on how much exposure your project winds up getting. So that's not nothing.

Being on Kickstarter will help you grow your audience, but it's definitely not everything. You really do need to bring your people first.

Our algorithm works on attention.

So any project that's getting clicks, getting backings, getting comments, our algorithm says, “Oh, people want to look at this. We will expose it to more and more people.” That means raising it up in search results, slotting it into various of the macros and carousels around the site.

**Our recommendation engine powers recommended projects on the top of campaigns, at the bottom of emails**. We are doing a lot to make sure that projects are being surfaced to folks who want to see them.

We actually are doing some significant backer-focused work this year on improving our search results, improving our recommendation engine. We're really working to make sure that people are finding the projects that they are going to be excited by.

Joanna: So, I mean, and this is something I think is quite different, it is very visual. The story page, the sales page. There's a main visual.

There's kind of two fields, the header field, and then a very small description field and then the image. That's what's really surfaced around Kickstarter, isn't it?

Any tips for the image and those text boxes for SEO purposes?

Oriana: Yes, totally. So SEO is important, but it is not as crucial. **We can always tell when people are coming to us from KU** because rather than the title of the book, their project subject says, “Reverse harem, lesbians on Mars, with an enemies to lover subplot.” You know, you don't have to do that on Kickstarter.

Keywords are important, but it's not the same. It's much more about, **what is this project? Who is it for?** So I would, of course, absolutely maximize your title and your subtitle to get as much information as possible.

Then exactly as you said, I mean, imagine somebody looking at your project on their phone. They're going to see **the title, subtitle, the project image, maybe one sentence.** That's also what they're going to see in a tweet, in a search result, in a newsletter thumbnail.

So those elements are really, really important, and you want with just those four items to sort of bring everybody in and get them excited to click through.

For the project image, we recommend one full bleed image. Maybe it's your cover, your cover image, or like one gorgeous illustration from the book.

Or if you've got a series, maybe a stack of books.

We don't recommend larding up that image with a whole lot of text. Remember it's going to show up next to your title, the title of your project.

So if the title of your project is the title of your book, and the title of your book is also written on the book cover, you don't also need a text bubble that says the book title on top of that project image.

Sometimes people try to cram a whole lot of very salesy text onto that image. It not only like makes the image pop less and makes it less interesting, it also is very difficult to read when that shows up thumbnail sized on a search page or a social post.

So **concentrate on making like a bright, exciting image that isn't too overloaded with many tiny elements**.

Joanna: And then the video. I wanted to ask about this because on Kickstarter it says you really should do a video. So why is that?

Any tips on the sales video?

Oriana: **We definitely do see a preference for videos**. It's, again, probably the tiktokization and the pivot to video all around the internet. Kickstarter is on the internet. It's a visual medium. People like videos these days.

That said, **if the video is the main stumbling block keeping you off the platform, I am here to tell you that you don't have to do one**. Plenty of projects fund extremely well without having a video. So if that's the calculation that you're making, just have beautiful imagery and you'll be fine.

That said, **if you are going to do a video, it needs to be short, bright and compelling**. Especially on the publishing side, we see about **50% of potential backers stop watching after one minute**, and everybody else is gone after the second minute.

So you don't need to undertake some massive Hollywood production style situation that's going to cost you tons of time and money. Much better to do just kind of like a direct to camera. It is nice to show your face if you feel comfortable doing so.

Just a teaser. **Talk a little bit about who you are, what you're doing, ask for people's support,** and say that you hope they click in and read through the whole rest of your story.

Joanna: So, and this is a tough one, because I've done different kinds of videos, now coming up for my fifth campaign.

For the fiction, I did do one for Blood Vintage which is like a book trailer. So it goes straight into the sort of thriller book trailer, and then I put on my face afterwards, and I'm telling them about the book.

On my nonfiction ones, I've really just done, sort of as you said, a face to camera.

Is there any data on what kind of video people prefer? For fiction, is a book trailer better than a direct to camera, or vice versa?

Oriana: That's not the kind of data that we do or possibly even could collect. I think it's more a question of **knowing your audience, knowing what they want, and what is going to fit the best.** I mean, I think that's really smart that you've done it slightly differently for your fiction versus nonfiction.

Whatever you think is going to be the best representation of this particular work, that's what you should go with.

Joanna: I guess I think about it from my perspective as a backer. With fiction—and it's terrible to say, but it's true—I often don't care so much about the author, I want the story.

**I've bought a ton of fiction off Kickstarter without knowing the author,** whereas I feel like the nonfiction I've bought, I've actually known the author, so I'm more interested in the author. So that's just, I guess, my personal behavior.

Oriana: Sure, but your personal behavior is probably fairly telling about a broader book buying population. So I think that makes a lot of sense.

Joanna: It's good to know though. I mean, for people listening, look, there's no structure for it. In fact, the very first video I did, I went to Russell Nohelty's bestselling page and I deconstructed his video. I literally wrote it down, and then I followed his script with my stuff.

Oriana: That's a great way to do it.

Joanna: I think to **find someone who's successful and model them**, I think that's always a good trick.

Oriana: Yes, absolutely.

Joanna: Okay, so let's just talk about some of the other aspects. So the pre-launch page, this is something that seems to be very important.

Talk about the pre-launch page.

Oriana: Absolutely. It's a new feature. We've released it—gosh, what is time—last year or the year before. It has really changed the way that people are doing the kind of period before they launch.

[Check out my pre-launch page at JFPenn.com/deathvalley — which will become the main sales page on launch.]

So a pre-launch page, it's a cover page. It lives at the same URL where your campaign will ultimately go. It's simplified, and it is designed to generate followers.

So **anybody who follows the pre-launch page is going to get a system email from Kickstarter as soon as you launch**. We see a very high conversion over the life of the project, from pre-launch followers to project backers, sometimes 40 or 50%. Most of them tend to do it right away.

The work that you do to promote that pre-launch page and get your follower count up is going to pay off very handsomely once you launch.

It really helps you have a **strong first day**, which is excellent for morale, excellent for messaging, good for the overall percentage chance of success on the project.

So, as I said, this is still new-ish. We don't have a huge amount of data about it, but **I recommend a pre-launch period of at least two weeks**. We've seen some people do it for weeks, months, even in a few cases, over a year.

I think in the best case, that pre-launch period is sort of a crescendo into the burst of launch. So if you urge someone to get excited and follow this page, which they do, and then six months later they get an email that the campaign is live now, I think you've really diluted the excitement that they had when they first came on board.

Everyone should do what works for them and their timeline and their project, but definitely don't skip that as a step.

**Spend some time promoting that pre-launch page**, getting up your follower count. It will really, really, really help once you go live.

Joanna: For people listening, my pre-launch page is at JFPenn.com/DeathValley. Depending on when people are listening, it might well be live, or it might be in the future.

So when I did my first campaign, obviously you don't know when you first start all the things you kind of have to do. There's obviously KYC, know your customer, that Kickstarter has to do. So if people are going to set up their pre-launch page, how long will it take and—

What do people need to set up so that Kickstarter knows they can be approved?

Oriana: So there's two different approvals.

The KYC stuff is done by Stripe, our payment processor. **I would give yourself lots of extra time for these approvals. It usually only takes a day or two**. Sometimes you get an automatic approval, but don't leave that to the very end.

Make sure you get your bank details, your ID, all of that information up and sent over to Stripe well before you need to, well before it comes to crunch time.

As far as **the Kickstarter approval process, that too can be automatic or it can take up to a few days**. We do want, especially for first time authors or first time creators, the trust and safety team who reviews the projects wants to **see pretty much a final draft when they're approving it.**

You can't put up your pre-launch page until the project is approved. For serial creators in good standing, we are making some allowances where people can get that pre-launch page up before the approval process.

Especially when you're starting out on the platform, it's good practice to like have your campaign more or less finalized, so that the reviewers can see everything that you'll be doing. Then you can get that pre-launch page up at that point.

Joanna: Yes, because —

When you put up the rewards and things, you have to have costed it all out.

You have to say, like, how much people need to pledge, and you need to know things like your shipping details. So let's get a bit more into those finances.

Earlier, you mentioned that adding merch can add a lot of money and lot of cost to a campaign. Of course, if you don't know how much it's going to cost even just to print your book, say, with foil or sprayed edges, or whatever, you can't cost it out either.

What are some of the issues that people find with finances around Kickstarter?

Oriana: I cannot stress enough **the importance of doing a full, real, detailed budget**. That doesn't mean vaguely guessing how much you think it might cost to print a book. Really, **actually get samples, figure out all of your processes.**

Budget, not just for print production, but for bubble wrap and tape, for pens and stickers. For all of the things that you are going to be producing in your rewards and also budget contingency plans.

Think about all the things that might go wrong.

Make sure you're doing a really, really detailed job of understanding all of your costs. It's good that you mentioned Russell before. There's a publishing creator tips page, that's kickstarter.com/creators/publishing.

There's a whole lot of resources there for all kinds of different projects and different elements of the crowdfunding process. One piece is a budgeting article by Russell. It's got a worksheet in it and details all of these things that we're talking about. So I absolutely recommend using that as a guide when you're setting out your budget.

One thing about it that I love is that he also says, **“Include a little bit of money to do a nice thing for yourself.**” For him, he gets a tattoo of one of his characters after every successful campaign.

So maybe for you, that's getting a manicure or a massage or a nice dinner or a new book, but do do something sweet for yourself. That's a nice way to give yourself a reward at the end of what can be a pretty intense process.

Joanna: Yes, it is intense. It's funny because I was scared about it before I pressed that button on the first time, but I feel like **what I love about the Kickstarter thing is that it's a real launch period.**

I feel like one of the most tiring things for authors is the constant need to do marketing, whereas with Kickstarter campaign, you can be like, okay, I'm going to really push hard for this couple of weeks, or a few weeks before that. **Push hard, do all my marketing, and then I can go into fulfillment, and I can ease off a bit**.

I feel like this is more surge marketing, isn't it?

Oriana: Yes. I think that's an excellent way to describe it, for sure.

That's definitely the Kickstarter proposition. You know, look, **I will be screaming from the rooftops about this project for 30 days, and then I will stop talking about it.**

Joanna: Yes, and you can't have it. Well, there won't be a thing anymore.

Oriana: Exactly, exactly.

Joanna: Well, then on that, I guess once we have finished, the campaign closes, and Kickstarter collects the money, and we get the money in a couple of weeks’ time.

We also have to fulfill the stuff, which is, all the shipping and all of that. One thing that I've seen people be confused about is around taxes.

So any clarification on who pays the tax?

Oriana: So I am actually not allowed to give tax advice, as I am absolutely not an accountant. I would say you should certainly talk to your accountant about what you're doing on Kickstarter and how you should report that and what that's all going to mean.

This is a reasonable point to note that, as we are recording this on February 13th, yesterday, Kickstarter announced a whole bunch of new features that we have been working on for a long time, and we are in the process of rolling out. Including a lot of post campaign tools that we've never had before.

We're doing an internal **pledge management system**. That is something that people have been asking us for probably over a decade. There are many elements to that, but **one thing that we are going to be doing in the future is we're going to be helping everybody with tax and VAT collection.**

So that's something that's coming soon, and **we're going to do our best to help demystify a massively complicated process.**

Joanna: It is. Well, then I'll say, from my perspective, I know what taxes I have to pay, and I make sure I pay them after I get the money from Kickstarter. So as far as I'm concerned —

Paying tax is my responsibility as the creator.

What else then is coming? Or things that perhaps authors aren't using enough yet?

Oriana: Well, so last year, we released **late pledges. This means, as like it says on the tin, once the campaign is closed, you can still collect additional backing**. There's some caveats with that. We don't want to undermine that sort of now or never, all or nothing, do or die situation.

So our recommendations for late pledges, they're most effective in two to seven days after the campaign has closed. The final 48 hours of a campaign are really strong. You know, that's when all of that FOMO really kicks in. So a lot of marketing happens, a lot of outreach, a lot of just like traffic.

So inevitably, no matter how hard you have been pushing this project, the day after your campaign closes, three people are going to email you and say, “Well, I didn't know you had a live campaign.” So **late pledges are really for them to still be able to get on board, even though they missed all of the main part of the activity.**

We also recommend you do not have all of your rewards available in late pledges, and those that you do, cost more. So again, you want to make sure that all of that talk you've been doing during the campaign of like, “This is your only chance to get this book, at this price, at this specificity,” has not been made into a lie by late pledges.

Then also with late pledges, they don't get to stay up forever. At some point you do say, now I am going to press, so I'm going to turn them off. So that's how late pledges are designed to work.

Some other really cool features that we've just announced, and again, as I said, we announced this yesterday. So I don't have a ton more information, although I should tell you where to go to find it. I mean, we've got pop ups and things all over the site about it.

Well, it's a slightly cumbersome URL, updates.kickstarter.com/kickstarters-2025-product-roadmap with some hyphens. I don't know if you have show notes.

Joanna: I'll put a link in the show notes.

Oriana: Excellent. That would be great. That's where we lay out the sort of overview of all of the stuff that we're working on this year.

Some things that I will just call out, we are in beta currently for a **payment plan. It's called Pledge Over Time.** That allows backers for rewards above a certain dollar amount, I think it's $125, to make their pledge in four payments, rather than all at once.

We are working on secret rewards, which, this is also still in beta. Creators can get a direct link to a reward that's not listed in the campaign and send that to specific groups of backers.

So we have a lot more features planned for this year. We're trying to make things that people have been asking for. This also means, **if there's a feature that you want Kickstarter to have that we currently don't, write into our support team and tell them.**

A lot of the things that we have developed over the years have come directly from so many people asking for it that we realized we just had to do it. So please tell us what you want, and maybe it'll come to life.

Joanna: Brilliant.

Where can people find Kickstarter for Publishing and any other help online?

Oriana: Yes, kickstarter.com/publishing is where all of the publishing projects are. I mentioned that creator tips page, kickstarter.com/creators/publishing. We are all over the socials. We are everywhere that you can find us.

Oh, another thing we also just rolled out is a whole new learning lab curriculum, which is a video series of every element of your Kickstarter project.

It is probably geared a bit more toward like larger sort of design and tech and gadget and games creators, but I'm sure that there are really, really relevant tips for publishers and publishing folks in there as well.

We're trying to give as much help as possible. We want everybody to succeed. Of course, a rising tide lifts all boats, which is foundational to the Kickstarter ethos.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Oriana. That was great.

The post Kickstarter For Authors With Oriana Leckert first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**The Happy Writer With Marissa Meyer** Feb 17, 2025
**How do you keep the happiness and joy in your writing practice, along with managing the business side of being an author?** Marissa Meyer gives her tips.

In the intro, How authors can price their books for profit [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; How to recover from author burnout [Self-Publishing Advice]; my Brooke and Daniel crime series in KU; *Day of the Vikings*; Outback Days and City Nights in the Lucky Country – Books and Travel; replanning with Calendarpedia.

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Marissa Meyer is the New York Times bestselling author of fantasy romance and graphic novels, including The Lunar Chronicles. *The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond* is her latest book for authors.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Finding joy and happiness in your creative process

Tips for finishing a first draft when you hit a wall

Ways to fill your creative well

How to make your research methods more fun

Coming up for new ideas within a series

Managing your to-do list and learning when to say no

Remaining positive when querying and pitching

Finding joy in book marketing

You can find Marissa at MarissaMeyer.com or on Instagram @MarissaMeyerAuthor.

Transcript of Interview with Marissa Meyer

Joanna: Marissa Meyer is the New York Times bestselling author of fantasy romance and graphic novels, including The Lunar Chronicles. *The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond* is her latest book for authors. So welcome to the show, Marissa.

Marissa: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: It's great to have you on. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Marissa: Oh, goodness. I always wanted to be a writer. I am one of those. **I was a huge reader growing up, loved stories, had a big imagination**. So, really, from the time that I was a little kid, I started making up stories and telling them to my parents, asking them to write them down into little books for me.

Then as I got older, I, of course, started writing them myself. Then —

At some point I realized that this is a job. This is something that people actually can get paid for.

You could actually get paid to come up with stories and get your name printed on a book.

I think I realized really early on that that was for me, and that's what I wanted to do with my life. So I kept writing.

As a teenager, **I got really into fan fiction and credit that a lot with learning how to tell a complete story**. Beginning, middle, end. I got my bachelor's degree in creative writing and a master's degree in publishing because I thought writing might be a difficult career to break into.

I wanted to have a backup plan, and thought, well, if this writing thing doesn't pan out, maybe I can be an editor, maybe I can be a publicist or an agent or something.

The deeper I got into learning about publishing, the more it really just cemented how passionate I was about writing and how much I just really wanted to be the writer in this publishing equation.

So **I wrote many multiple manuscripts that went nowhere**, but eventually got the idea for a Cinderella retelling about a cyborg, a futuristic retelling. So that became my debut novel, *Cinder*.

Joanna: Wow. Okay, so it’s really interesting that you did publishing as a degree, as well as writing.

Did you have a job before you became a full-time author?

Like did you work in the publishing industry? Or did you just go straight from uni into full-time writer?

Marissa: No, I did. From university, **I got a job as an editor at a very small publishing house in Seattle.** That publisher focused mostly on fine art books. So those beautiful coffee table books that you get at museum exhibits and art galleries. You know those books.

So it had virtually nothing to do with my ultimate career of being a fiction writer, but **it taught me a lot about just the behind the scenes, what goes into creating a book, and the actual production of it, the marketing of it, all of these various aspects**.

So I did that for five years, and then I spent about a year as a freelance typesetter and proofreader. At which point my first novel sold, and I got to become a full-time writer.

Joanna: That's very cool. I love that you did typesetting and stuff like that. We'll come back to the business side, but let's get into the book.

So you use the words “happy” and “joy” in the book title, but I feel like many writers think suffering and pain is more of a hallmark of the creative process.

If writers are not feeling the ‘joy' and the ‘happy' right now, what are some tips for getting back to that?

Marissa: Thank you so much for asking this question. It is so funny to me that we do have this stereotype of the writer. That you must be struggling in order to create art, and you must be suffering some way. If it's not painful, then how can you possibly call it quality?

This stereotype really bugs me, and I'm really trying to dismantle it with this book. But that said, we're also not shying away from the fact that **writing, it's not just fun and play all the time. There are struggles, there are challenges, no matter where you are on your journey**.

Whether you're suffering from writer's block or burnout, whether you're in the query trenches and you're facing rejection or criticism. There's a million things, of course, that can be roadblocks in our path to being happier writers.

That is largely what this book is about, trying to refocus our attention, not on all the things that can go wrong, not on all of the struggles that we face, but **looking at the things that we really do love and enjoy about the craft of writing.** The hobby, the career.

We get into it because we do have a passion. It's not the sort of job or hobby that most of us take on just for the heck of it. I mean —

You start writing because you love to write.

So I really encourage writers to **find what it is that appeals to them about this**. Do you love the process of taking a messy, complicated plot and fitting it together like a big jigsaw puzzle and that satisfying feeling when everything comes together?

Or do you love that you have the freedom to go to a cafe with your laptop and sip lattes all day and stare out at the people and let the world inspire you? Or maybe you love the research process and learning about things that you are so curious and interested in and just want to do deep dives into it.

There's a lot of things that we can find joy and satisfaction in. So **that's going to be different for every writer,** and that's going to be different based on where you are, both in the process of writing a particular book, but also where you are in your overall career.

I always encourage writers to go back to that. What can I find joy in today?

Joanna: I love **the research**. I also love saying with a finished book, **“I made this.”** I always enjoy holding that book in my hand. You, coming from this fine art books thing you did early on, I guess you must love the really beautiful special editions and all that as well.

Marissa: Oh, I love it, and the smell! I love the smell of a new book. You don't always get it when a lot of books these days just come in like a cardboard box, but some of these special editions will come wrapped in plastic, and so they still maintain the smell of the ink and the binding glue. Ah, I just nerd out over it.

Joanna: Well, and that is important too, isn't it? I feel like we've come around to that. Like there was a lot of focus on digital for a while, especially for independent authors, but now **it's really come round to beautiful, physical products.**

That, to me, is a very exciting part of the process, finishing the whole thing with something beautiful. That satisfaction is really part of it.

Marissa: Absolutely. I'm really big on celebrations.

I think it's so important to take a moment and say, “I made this thing. I accomplished this. I had a goal. I had a dream, and I kept moving. It took months or years or decades, but I did it.”

That is such a huge part of the process.

It's really easy—and especially like for me, I'm about 20 books now into my career— it can be easy to be like, “Oh, just another one. Set it on the shelf, and keep on working on the next deadline.” I really have tried to be very conscientious about it.

No, let's pause. Let's pop some champagne. Let's take a night off. Let's get a massage. Like, what is it that's going to make me feel like, yes, I've done it again, and I'm really proud of this moment.

Joanna: That's great. Well, you do have a section on the writing process in the book. Of course, every author is different, but if people haven't got to that 20 books place—

Tell us how you get that first draft done. Any tips for actually finishing a book?

Which I know some people have an issue with.

Marissa: **Finishing is hard.** I think it's important for people to know that everyone struggles with finishing. We talk a lot about the siren song of the next project because **at some point in every book you're going to reach that point where you're in the murky middle and it feels endless.**

You're confused about the plot, you're frustrated that things aren't going well, and suddenly you get a sparkly new idea for the next thing.

It's so easy to think, “Ah! That one's going to be really easy and really fun, and it's not going have any of these other problems that I'm dealing with right now.”

It's very tempting to switch over and to follow that path of least resistance. I think it's important to know that that fantasy of the next one being so easy, probably not reality. Probably you will get to relatively the same point in the process and, once again, be hit with, “Ah, this is hard. It's work. What else can I do?”

For me, one of the tips that I started using fairly early in my career is when I am at the start of a project, and I'm really excited, and I've got lots of ideas, and you can feel all the potential for it, and there's a reason that you're choosing to write this thing out of all your other ideas. **Why am I focusing my time on this one?**

I will write down either a list, or I will write a little letter to myself detailing all of the things about this project that I cannot wait for.

Maybe it's the romance that I'm really excited to write, or I just love the protagonist, or there's a really big twist in the plot that I can't wait to see how readers are going to react to.

Whatever it is, **I will write down everything that I really love about this idea**. Then when I'm a third of the way or halfway through the book and suddenly hating it and feeling like this is the worst thing I've ever written, and I can't believe that I chose this, what was I thinking, I'll go back and I'll read that list.

I will remind myself **why I chose this one in the beginning, and what do I love about it? What do I still love about it?** Then I will take those ideas and I will try to incorporate them into the next scene or chapter, or couple of chapters that I'm going to write.

“All right, I love the romance.” Well, let's have a romantic scene. “I think the villain is so cool.” Well, let's have a scene where we really get to see how cool the villain is. You know, whatever it is, focus on that, and that will hopefully help you get over that bad period.

Joanna: Do you write out of order if you get to that point?

You're like, I'm just going to write the climax scene because I know that will be fun, or do you write linearly?

Marissa: It really depends on the project. I have done both, and I think both processes work. Some books are more difficult than others.

**The books that I'm struggling with more, then I will tend to jump around and go ahead to write a scene that I'm really excited about**, but not always.

Some books have very complicated plots that are very interwoven, and in those cases, it can be less of a mental gymnastics challenge if you do write it linearly. So it really depends.

I think, for me —

Momentum and forward progress and consistency. Whatever you need to do to keep moving forward and keep on top of your goals —

whether it's a word count goal or a chapter goal or whatever it is, anything you can do any day to keep moving forward is going to be helpful.

Joanna: Sometimes that moving forward might not be getting new words down. You also have a section about filling the creative well. Sometimes, especially when you've written as many books as we both have, it can be like, okay, do you know what I need? Some more input.

What are some ways that you fill your creative well?

Marissa: Absolutely, and that's such an important thing to note. Like you say, **sometimes getting words down is not the answer**.

If you're facing some amount of creative burnout, or if you're just really stuck in a plot and feel like things just aren't working, or maybe you've taken a wrong turn somewhere and you're not really sure how to fix it, **sometimes the best thing you can do is take a step back, and do it intentionally.**

I think there's a distinction between saying, “I have writer's block and I can't possibly write anything today,” versus, “I am choosing not to write today because I recognize that I need a moment and need some space to refill the well and tap into that creative spark again.”

So, for me, when I decide I'm going to take a day off, there's a myriad of things that I might choose to do with that time. I think getting outside, going for walks, or if you can go to a park or go on a hike somewhere, if you can go swimming. Anything like that tends to, for me, really generate some new ideas.

Spending time with my family is always good. A lot of times I will use those days off to tackle other projects, things that have kind of been looming in the background. Maybe they're taking up more mental space than they should be.

That could be things like getting your car washed, or that could be like reorganizing your pantry, just things that have been really bugging you lately.

Maybe it's time to take a day and clear some of those things out because that will help clear your mental clutter as well.

Or you might take a day and be like, I'm going to do some really fun research about this project. Or I'm going to take a day and spend some time brainstorming or reoutlining my plot.

So you can also take a more hands on approach to writing. There's really no right or wrong here. Whatever you feel like you need, give it a shot and see if it helps break something loose.

Joanna: You mentioned fun research there. What does that look like for you?

Marissa: All of it. I really enjoy research. I love reading. I love doing deep dives, you know, going on Wikipedia and clicking the little further reading links at the bottom and seeing the rabbit holes you go down.

Also, if I can find a way to do a hands-on or more of an experiential research, that's the best. Of course, we all fantasize about being able to travel. **If you can go to the place where your setting is inspired by, that is worth gold.**

It's not always an option, of course, for different reasons, but if you can get out and see the world and take in these really great sensory details, it is so helpful.

It could also be talking to an expert on something about your story, something about your protagonist or your plot, because they're going to have just the best insights. They're going to clue you into things that you never would have even known to look up to research.

I've crawled under cars to see how they work because I don't know anything about cars, but I had a mechanic character, so I better learn something about cars.

I love cooking. If there's a dish that my character has to cook or bake or is served, I'll find a recipe and give it a try myself. **Just little things like that to just kind of give you that hands on experience. I think it adds a lot to the authenticity as you're writing.**

Joanna: It also makes it more of a fun process.

Marissa: It's more fun. Why not? We're all about trying to make it more fun.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. Well, then coming to writing series, because it feels like, obviously we need tropes in the books. If we're writing different books in a series, we need to make sure the characters are consistent and all that.

How do you keep coming up with new ideas for series?

I feel like a lot of people now are sort of like, okay, is it the same thing, the same thing? What stays the same in a series book and what changes? How do you get ideas for that?

Marissa: That's a good question, and it's going to depend on if your series follows one main protagonist versus if it's more like a loosely connected series with maybe different protagonists or different love interests in each book. Generally, I think it's more common that you've got the solo protagonist who has a complete character arc.

So when **I'm thinking of the entire series as a whole and trying to step back and see kind of a big picture, I will give a lot of thought to the protagonist's arc**. Where do they start page one, book one? And where am I hoping they're going to end up?

Within that, depending on how many books you have in your series, there's probably going to be some reversals. There might be that in book one, your protagonist might end on a really high note.

Book two, it might be the opposite. They may be way down at the bottom now. Something terrible has happened that they have to claw their way out of.

Or they learn something about themselves in book one, but then book two, you flip it on its head and say, “They thought this thing, but surprise, actually, it's a negative in some way.”

Playing around with these different moments as the character is changing, developing, learning about secrets, exploring their world.

Generally speaking, we tend to think of character arcs as being upward, but I think it's helpful to think of it more as a roller coaster. There should be dips, there should be lots of places where things are going wrong.

So that's one thing that I'm thinking about as I'm putting together a series. **Then I'm also thinking about my antagonist and my conflicts.** I have often likened it to like old video games, where every level ends with a boss, but then the very end of the game has the big boss that you're really trying to defeat.

So the first boss, you have barely enough skills to defeat that first boss, and maybe it takes a few tries to beat that first level, but you do it. Oh, but now you have to do the second level, and that next boss is going to be even harder.

As you go, you're getting better. Your characters are picking up new skills, new weapons, new allies. So **at the end of every book we have a conflict, a climax, something that we have to face**, and everyone is going to be a step up, a little more difficult than the last one.

So that we know by the time our character is finally ready to face that big conflict, the big struggle, the antagonist, villain, whatever it is you have at the end of the series, that you have given them the skills that they need to actually defeat them.

Joanna: There's some great advice there. So let's come into more of the business side because you do have this section on the to-do list. I love this because the to-do list is never ending. For indie authors, we're publishing, as well as marketing and writing and everything.

How do authors say no and reduce that to-do list, in order to stop being so overwhelmed?

Marissa: Oh, my gosh. It is hard, and I will admit this is something that I personally have really struggled with. I'm a yes person. I like to say yes. I like to please people. I like to feel like I am doing everything within my power to make a book a success, to further my career. So I get it.

I absolutely get how difficult it is to recognize when we need a little space, or we need some downtime, or when we need to take a step back. For me, and I didn't come up with this, I read it in some productivity guide, self help guide, a long time ago, but it really resonated with me.

Every time you say yes to something, you are also saying no to something.

For example, if you say, yes, I will be on this panel at this book festival.

Okay, let's say you have to travel there. Let's say it's a full day being on the panel. There's probably going to be a signing. Maybe there's an author dinner. Another full day of travel going back home. So we've got essentially two to three days for that yes.

There's lots of times when, great, I can't wait. I'm looking forward to this. I'm going to meet some readers, I'm going to network with authors.

Maybe you recognize that by saying yes to that, I'm saying no to three days with my family, or I'm saying no to three days of working on my novel, or I'm saying no to a day where I could relax and spend a day reading a book and refilling my well.

So none of these are the right option, **none of them are the wrong option, but just recognizing that there are pros and cons,** and give and take, and be really picky about what you're spending your time on and what you are making your priority at any given point.

Joanna: It is interesting. You mentioned a panel there, and I feel like conferences and conventions are one of these things that is quite difficult. Now, you and I, again, have been doing this a while, so we have a community, like we have author friends.

There are people listening who might be introverts. They might feel very uncomfortable about going to writing conferences, and they're like, should I just say no to that? I guess that the question is—

When should you go to something, even if you feel you want to say no?

When do you have to push yourself as an author, and when should you give into those feelings? I know it's tough, but when have you done this as an early writer and then later stage?

Marissa: This is one of those things where I really think people have to tap into their own psyche and recognize, **what are my limitations, what are my goals?** For me, early in my career, I did it all. If I was invited to something, it was an automatic yes.

I also did not have children at the start of my career, so for me, when it really started to change, as far as recognizing my time is limited, my energy is limited, I have to step back and say no to more things, was when I had kids.

Then it really became that balancing act of, when do you focus on the writing and the career? When do you focus on family?

That said, I mean, the publishing process, the writing process, there's ups and downs. There are times when you are really focused on selling a book, on marketing a book, promoting. That's both with in-person events, doing book signings, doing the festivals. There's also social media, sending out newsletters.

There's going to be periods where you're trying to get your book noticed by readers, but that doesn't have to be all day, all the time, for years and years and years.

You can really focus on it for one, two, three months, whatever your capacity is, and then step back. Maybe take a hiatus on social media.

Maybe say, for these next five months, I need to write a new book, and I need to focus on being with my family and do some self-care. So for these five months, I'm saying no to all other requests. I mean, whatever it is. I'm just throwing out numbers. Of course, this is going to be different for everybody.

So really think about —

What are my limitations? Know that you really can't do it all.

I hate saying that because I am one of those people where I feel like I can do it all, just let me try. But you really can't.

You have to make choices sometimes and recognize that if you're trying to do it all for too long, then that's a recipe for burnout. That's the last thing we want.

**The last thing we want is to get to a point in our career where we dread the writing**, or we dread the travel, or we dread the book events.

So whenever you start to feel like it's too much, listen to that and give yourself some space. **Realize that the world is not going to fall apart if you take a little bit of time off.**

Joanna: I love that. Actually, I prefer this sort of campaign focus, which is what you were really saying there. It's like, go hard for, say, three months, and then take a couple of months off. I do that. I kind of step back from social media.

Some people feel like they have to do, I know the TikTok authors in particular, are doing a lot of videos every single day. They feel like if they stop, it's all going to end.

The race never stops, does it? It never stops unless you stop.

Marissa: It's true. There's always going to be the next goal post. There's always going to be that next thing that you're thinking, “Oh, if I just get this many followers, then I can slow down.”

Then you get that many followers, and you think, “Oh, but I've got a book coming out in two months, so I'll keep going until then, and then I'll slow down.” “Oh, but now I've got this other thing.” I mean, it's always going to push back. It's always going to be something else.

It's hard to recognize when you do need some personal space, but it's also really important. Not just for our mental health and wellbeing, but for our creativity too.

Joanna: Okay, so another thing that some people are not that happy or joyful about is pitching publishers and agents. Mostly people are quite stressed about that.

Now, you work with traditional publishers. I'm primarily an independent author. There are pros and cons.

Tell us a bit more about your experience with traditional publishing.

Any tips for people who want to position themselves in a world of publishing flux, as ever?

Marissa: Definitely **one of the most stressful periods in a career is the pitching to the agents, the querying trenches, the submission trenches**. It can do some damage on your confidence, on your everything. So it's a really difficult period.

If your goal is to be traditionally published, as opposed to independently published, and as you say, great options. **There's so many great directions that we have available to us today.**

If you really think you want to be traditionally published, of course, number one, just **make sure you've written the best book that you can. Get some feedback**. Have some critique partners go over it.

Edit and polish it to within an inch of its life.

Then when you feel like, okay, I've done the best I can do, **write your query letter**. Again, get feedback there, because query letters are particularly tricky, and there is a science and an art to them. Do your research.

Then send it off, and, number one, celebrate because it's so huge. It's such a huge accomplishment to get to the point where you're querying. So regardless of whether you get 10 agents interested and it goes to auction at publishers, or if no one bites, like regardless, you have written a complete book and submitted it.

That's so awesome, so like take a moment to congratulate yourselves and go out for pizza or whatever, whatever you do to celebrate. **Then start writing the next thing.**

The worst thing that we can do is have this book sent out, and then just spend all day, every day, worried about it and stressing about it and having that anxiety building up and checking our email 100 times a day, which like you're probably going to do anyway.

If you can, try to refocus your energy on something new, what is the next project you can be excited about?

Then dive into it, body and soul and spirit, and try to immerse yourself in a new story.

This is for a number of reasons. One, because it's going to be a great distraction. But two, **when and if your book on submission gets picked up, your agent is going to ask you, what else you got?** So it's great to have something else that you can talk about.

Joanna: Then what I do like in your book—I mean, I like lots of things—but you do also —

Talk about what might happen if you break up with an agent, or lose an agent or an editor or a publicist.

I like that you covered this because so many people think, “Oh, if I get an agent or a publisher, that's it forever. My whole life is amazing, and I'm rich and famous, and everything will work out.”

So why might some of these things happen over a career, and what's the kind of attitude you need to survive it all?

Marissa: This was one of the big surprises for me, as I started to expand my group, my network of writers, **how common it is to break up with an agent or to switch publishers, publishing houses, to switch editors. I**t happens all the time.

This was shocking to me because I very much felt like, no, when you've got an agent and a publisher, you are set forever. That is your career, those are your people. So I was really surprised that that is not the case.

There's so many reasons why one of these relationships may not work out. I've had friends whose agents have retired, whose editors have moved to different publishers. So **it might be something rather innocuous. Life just happens.**

**Or it could be a matter of just not being the right fit for each other.** Maybe your agent only represents kid lit and you want to move into adult. Or you really want to start writing romance, but they don't represent romance.

**It could be a matter of my agents not communicating with me**. Or I feel like they're no longer focused on me and my career, and I feel like I'm not getting the attention that I really need and want out of an agent.

Again, there's so many reasons, but it does happen. It's not the end of the world, it's just a little blip, another blip in your journey.

By and large, the friends I have who have left an agent, or whose agent has left their career or whatever, then when they find someone new, more often than not, **they end up feeling like, you know what? This was the right thing.**

I really took my time, I found someone new who is a great fit for me, who is excited about my career and my upcoming projects, and who is really working it and making things happen, and making book deals happen.

So I know it's really hard in that moment because you can feel like I worked so hard to get this agent, why would I ever leave them and go back to querying?

So really try to take a big picture look and think, well, I might be going through a bad spot now, but what is the potential payoff in the end? What do I stand to succeed and to gain in doing this? So it's a tough decision. It's not a fun part of the career, but it is a reality for a lot of us.

Joanna: If you want a long-term career, you're the one who is in charge.

So you just make some more choices and carry on. We don't let that end our careers.

Marissa: Absolutely, and **you're always going to be your best advocate.**

We think of our agents as our advocates, and we think of our editors as our advocates. They absolutely are, but ultimately, no one is paying as much attention to your career as you are. So we really have to speak up for ourselves, first and foremost.

Joanna: We're almost out of time, but I have to ask you about book marketing because it is a part of every author's life, and again, something where happiness and joy might not be such a big part. So how can we make marketing more fun?

What do you enjoy most about book marketing?

Marissa: Oh, my gosh. If you figure it out, you let me know.

Joanna: Well, I like podcasting. So, there you go.

Marissa: I also really enjoyed podcasting, although I did just retire my podcast because, again, too many things, too many spinning plates, and you have to make some tough choices sometimes.

For me, you know, **find the things that you do enjoy**. I learned early on, I don't like Facebook, and I don't like Twitter/X. It was difficult pulling back from those because I had a fair amount of followers, but when I did, it was clearly the right decision. I wish I'd done that a long time ago.

Then it allowed me to **focus my energy and my attention on Instagram, which is the platform that I just naturally gravitate toward best.** I just enjoy it the most.

Pick and choose the things that you do get some enjoyment out of, and then set boundaries around it.

We were talking about the TikTokers who feel like they have to make multiple videos every day. Figure out what—again, back to limitations— what is your capacity?

**Have a plan in place and say, okay, I'm going to post three times a week, or five times a week.** Or maybe I'm going do Fan Art Fridays, and I'm going do New Book Tuesdays or whatever it is, and then maybe I'll have one fun family post, or one fun “this is a quirky thing about me” post every week.

So you can kind of have a plan and break it down so that you're not every morning looking at your phone thinking, “Oh, I have to post on Instagram again,” or, “I have to do a TikTok video. Now, what am I going to talk about?”

I also think it's helpful to maybe once a month, or maybe at the start of a big promo season, spend some time doing your big brainstorming and kind of like batch.

I like batching things, like the things on my to-do list.

So I'll spend a day brainstorming what I want to post, and then I'll spend a few hours taking the necessary photos and trying to put together the captions or trying to put together the graphics or whatever. Then that's done, and I don't have to worry about that for a couple of weeks, maybe a month, if you're really productive.

So it's a really nice, efficient way to tackle that and then be able to move back to writing, which is, for most of us, the thing that we would rather be doing.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now, the book is *The Happy Writer*.

Where can people find you and all your books online?

Marissa: Thank you so much. I can be found on Instagram at MarissaMeyerAuthor, or on my website at MarissaMeyer.com. Books are available pretty much wherever you like to get your books.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Marissa. That was great.

Marissa: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
The post The Happy Writer With Marissa Meyer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**The Happy Writer With Marissa Meyer** Feb 17, 2025
**How do you keep the happiness and joy in your writing practice, along with managing the business side of being an author?** Marissa Meyer gives her tips.

In the intro, How authors can price their books for profit [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; How to recover from author burnout [Self-Publishing Advice]; my Brooke and Daniel crime series in KU; *Day of the Vikings*; Outback Days and City Nights in the Lucky Country – Books and Travel; replanning with Calendarpedia.

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Marissa Meyer is the New York Times bestselling author of fantasy romance and graphic novels, including The Lunar Chronicles. *The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond* is her latest book for authors.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Finding joy and happiness in your creative process

Tips for finishing a first draft when you hit a wall

Ways to fill your creative well

How to make your research methods more fun

Coming up for new ideas within a series

Managing your to-do list and learning when to say no

Remaining positive when querying and pitching

Finding joy in book marketing

You can find Marissa at MarissaMeyer.com or on Instagram @MarissaMeyerAuthor.

Transcript of Interview with Marissa Meyer

Joanna: Marissa Meyer is the New York Times bestselling author of fantasy romance and graphic novels, including The Lunar Chronicles. *The Happy Writer: Get More Ideas, Write More Words, and Find More Joy from First Draft to Publication and Beyond* is her latest book for authors. So welcome to the show, Marissa.

Marissa: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: It's great to have you on. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Marissa: Oh, goodness. I always wanted to be a writer. I am one of those. **I was a huge reader growing up, loved stories, had a big imagination**. So, really, from the time that I was a little kid, I started making up stories and telling them to my parents, asking them to write them down into little books for me.

Then as I got older, I, of course, started writing them myself. Then —

At some point I realized that this is a job. This is something that people actually can get paid for.

You could actually get paid to come up with stories and get your name printed on a book.

I think I realized really early on that that was for me, and that's what I wanted to do with my life. So I kept writing.

As a teenager, **I got really into fan fiction and credit that a lot with learning how to tell a complete story**. Beginning, middle, end. I got my bachelor's degree in creative writing and a master's degree in publishing because I thought writing might be a difficult career to break into.

I wanted to have a backup plan, and thought, well, if this writing thing doesn't pan out, maybe I can be an editor, maybe I can be a publicist or an agent or something.

The deeper I got into learning about publishing, the more it really just cemented how passionate I was about writing and how much I just really wanted to be the writer in this publishing equation.

So **I wrote many multiple manuscripts that went nowhere**, but eventually got the idea for a Cinderella retelling about a cyborg, a futuristic retelling. So that became my debut novel, *Cinder*.

Joanna: Wow. Okay, so it’s really interesting that you did publishing as a degree, as well as writing.

Did you have a job before you became a full-time author?

Like did you work in the publishing industry? Or did you just go straight from uni into full-time writer?

Marissa: No, I did. From university, **I got a job as an editor at a very small publishing house in Seattle.** That publisher focused mostly on fine art books. So those beautiful coffee table books that you get at museum exhibits and art galleries. You know those books.

So it had virtually nothing to do with my ultimate career of being a fiction writer, but **it taught me a lot about just the behind the scenes, what goes into creating a book, and the actual production of it, the marketing of it, all of these various aspects**.

So I did that for five years, and then I spent about a year as a freelance typesetter and proofreader. At which point my first novel sold, and I got to become a full-time writer.

Joanna: That's very cool. I love that you did typesetting and stuff like that. We'll come back to the business side, but let's get into the book.

So you use the words “happy” and “joy” in the book title, but I feel like many writers think suffering and pain is more of a hallmark of the creative process.

If writers are not feeling the ‘joy' and the ‘happy' right now, what are some tips for getting back to that?

Marissa: Thank you so much for asking this question. It is so funny to me that we do have this stereotype of the writer. That you must be struggling in order to create art, and you must be suffering some way. If it's not painful, then how can you possibly call it quality?

This stereotype really bugs me, and I'm really trying to dismantle it with this book. But that said, we're also not shying away from the fact that **writing, it's not just fun and play all the time. There are struggles, there are challenges, no matter where you are on your journey**.

Whether you're suffering from writer's block or burnout, whether you're in the query trenches and you're facing rejection or criticism. There's a million things, of course, that can be roadblocks in our path to being happier writers.

That is largely what this book is about, trying to refocus our attention, not on all the things that can go wrong, not on all of the struggles that we face, but **looking at the things that we really do love and enjoy about the craft of writing.** The hobby, the career.

We get into it because we do have a passion. It's not the sort of job or hobby that most of us take on just for the heck of it. I mean —

You start writing because you love to write.

So I really encourage writers to **find what it is that appeals to them about this**. Do you love the process of taking a messy, complicated plot and fitting it together like a big jigsaw puzzle and that satisfying feeling when everything comes together?

Or do you love that you have the freedom to go to a cafe with your laptop and sip lattes all day and stare out at the people and let the world inspire you? Or maybe you love the research process and learning about things that you are so curious and interested in and just want to do deep dives into it.

There's a lot of things that we can find joy and satisfaction in. So **that's going to be different for every writer,** and that's going to be different based on where you are, both in the process of writing a particular book, but also where you are in your overall career.

I always encourage writers to go back to that. What can I find joy in today?

Joanna: I love **the research**. I also love saying with a finished book, **“I made this.”** I always enjoy holding that book in my hand. You, coming from this fine art books thing you did early on, I guess you must love the really beautiful special editions and all that as well.

Marissa: Oh, I love it, and the smell! I love the smell of a new book. You don't always get it when a lot of books these days just come in like a cardboard box, but some of these special editions will come wrapped in plastic, and so they still maintain the smell of the ink and the binding glue. Ah, I just nerd out over it.

Joanna: Well, and that is important too, isn't it? I feel like we've come around to that. Like there was a lot of focus on digital for a while, especially for independent authors, but now **it's really come round to beautiful, physical products.**

That, to me, is a very exciting part of the process, finishing the whole thing with something beautiful. That satisfaction is really part of it.

Marissa: Absolutely. I'm really big on celebrations.

I think it's so important to take a moment and say, “I made this thing. I accomplished this. I had a goal. I had a dream, and I kept moving. It took months or years or decades, but I did it.”

That is such a huge part of the process.

It's really easy—and especially like for me, I'm about 20 books now into my career— it can be easy to be like, “Oh, just another one. Set it on the shelf, and keep on working on the next deadline.” I really have tried to be very conscientious about it.

No, let's pause. Let's pop some champagne. Let's take a night off. Let's get a massage. Like, what is it that's going to make me feel like, yes, I've done it again, and I'm really proud of this moment.

Joanna: That's great. Well, you do have a section on the writing process in the book. Of course, every author is different, but if people haven't got to that 20 books place—

Tell us how you get that first draft done. Any tips for actually finishing a book?

Which I know some people have an issue with.

Marissa: **Finishing is hard.** I think it's important for people to know that everyone struggles with finishing. We talk a lot about the siren song of the next project because **at some point in every book you're going to reach that point where you're in the murky middle and it feels endless.**

You're confused about the plot, you're frustrated that things aren't going well, and suddenly you get a sparkly new idea for the next thing.

It's so easy to think, “Ah! That one's going to be really easy and really fun, and it's not going have any of these other problems that I'm dealing with right now.”

It's very tempting to switch over and to follow that path of least resistance. I think it's important to know that that fantasy of the next one being so easy, probably not reality. Probably you will get to relatively the same point in the process and, once again, be hit with, “Ah, this is hard. It's work. What else can I do?”

For me, one of the tips that I started using fairly early in my career is when I am at the start of a project, and I'm really excited, and I've got lots of ideas, and you can feel all the potential for it, and there's a reason that you're choosing to write this thing out of all your other ideas. **Why am I focusing my time on this one?**

I will write down either a list, or I will write a little letter to myself detailing all of the things about this project that I cannot wait for.

Maybe it's the romance that I'm really excited to write, or I just love the protagonist, or there's a really big twist in the plot that I can't wait to see how readers are going to react to.

Whatever it is, **I will write down everything that I really love about this idea**. Then when I'm a third of the way or halfway through the book and suddenly hating it and feeling like this is the worst thing I've ever written, and I can't believe that I chose this, what was I thinking, I'll go back and I'll read that list.

I will remind myself **why I chose this one in the beginning, and what do I love about it? What do I still love about it?** Then I will take those ideas and I will try to incorporate them into the next scene or chapter, or couple of chapters that I'm going to write.

“All right, I love the romance.” Well, let's have a romantic scene. “I think the villain is so cool.” Well, let's have a scene where we really get to see how cool the villain is. You know, whatever it is, focus on that, and that will hopefully help you get over that bad period.

Joanna: Do you write out of order if you get to that point?

You're like, I'm just going to write the climax scene because I know that will be fun, or do you write linearly?

Marissa: It really depends on the project. I have done both, and I think both processes work. Some books are more difficult than others.

**The books that I'm struggling with more, then I will tend to jump around and go ahead to write a scene that I'm really excited about**, but not always.

Some books have very complicated plots that are very interwoven, and in those cases, it can be less of a mental gymnastics challenge if you do write it linearly. So it really depends.

I think, for me —

Momentum and forward progress and consistency. Whatever you need to do to keep moving forward and keep on top of your goals —

whether it's a word count goal or a chapter goal or whatever it is, anything you can do any day to keep moving forward is going to be helpful.

Joanna: Sometimes that moving forward might not be getting new words down. You also have a section about filling the creative well. Sometimes, especially when you've written as many books as we both have, it can be like, okay, do you know what I need? Some more input.

What are some ways that you fill your creative well?

Marissa: Absolutely, and that's such an important thing to note. Like you say, **sometimes getting words down is not the answer**.

If you're facing some amount of creative burnout, or if you're just really stuck in a plot and feel like things just aren't working, or maybe you've taken a wrong turn somewhere and you're not really sure how to fix it, **sometimes the best thing you can do is take a step back, and do it intentionally.**

I think there's a distinction between saying, “I have writer's block and I can't possibly write anything today,” versus, “I am choosing not to write today because I recognize that I need a moment and need some space to refill the well and tap into that creative spark again.”

So, for me, when I decide I'm going to take a day off, there's a myriad of things that I might choose to do with that time. I think getting outside, going for walks, or if you can go to a park or go on a hike somewhere, if you can go swimming. Anything like that tends to, for me, really generate some new ideas.

Spending time with my family is always good. A lot of times I will use those days off to tackle other projects, things that have kind of been looming in the background. Maybe they're taking up more mental space than they should be.

That could be things like getting your car washed, or that could be like reorganizing your pantry, just things that have been really bugging you lately.

Maybe it's time to take a day and clear some of those things out because that will help clear your mental clutter as well.

Or you might take a day and be like, I'm going to do some really fun research about this project. Or I'm going to take a day and spend some time brainstorming or reoutlining my plot.

So you can also take a more hands on approach to writing. There's really no right or wrong here. Whatever you feel like you need, give it a shot and see if it helps break something loose.

Joanna: You mentioned fun research there. What does that look like for you?

Marissa: All of it. I really enjoy research. I love reading. I love doing deep dives, you know, going on Wikipedia and clicking the little further reading links at the bottom and seeing the rabbit holes you go down.

Also, if I can find a way to do a hands-on or more of an experiential research, that's the best. Of course, we all fantasize about being able to travel. **If you can go to the place where your setting is inspired by, that is worth gold.**

It's not always an option, of course, for different reasons, but if you can get out and see the world and take in these really great sensory details, it is so helpful.

It could also be talking to an expert on something about your story, something about your protagonist or your plot, because they're going to have just the best insights. They're going to clue you into things that you never would have even known to look up to research.

I've crawled under cars to see how they work because I don't know anything about cars, but I had a mechanic character, so I better learn something about cars.

I love cooking. If there's a dish that my character has to cook or bake or is served, I'll find a recipe and give it a try myself. **Just little things like that to just kind of give you that hands on experience. I think it adds a lot to the authenticity as you're writing.**

Joanna: It also makes it more of a fun process.

Marissa: It's more fun. Why not? We're all about trying to make it more fun.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. Well, then coming to writing series, because it feels like, obviously we need tropes in the books. If we're writing different books in a series, we need to make sure the characters are consistent and all that.

How do you keep coming up with new ideas for series?

I feel like a lot of people now are sort of like, okay, is it the same thing, the same thing? What stays the same in a series book and what changes? How do you get ideas for that?

Marissa: That's a good question, and it's going to depend on if your series follows one main protagonist versus if it's more like a loosely connected series with maybe different protagonists or different love interests in each book. Generally, I think it's more common that you've got the solo protagonist who has a complete character arc.

So when **I'm thinking of the entire series as a whole and trying to step back and see kind of a big picture, I will give a lot of thought to the protagonist's arc**. Where do they start page one, book one? And where am I hoping they're going to end up?

Within that, depending on how many books you have in your series, there's probably going to be some reversals. There might be that in book one, your protagonist might end on a really high note.

Book two, it might be the opposite. They may be way down at the bottom now. Something terrible has happened that they have to claw their way out of.

Or they learn something about themselves in book one, but then book two, you flip it on its head and say, “They thought this thing, but surprise, actually, it's a negative in some way.”

Playing around with these different moments as the character is changing, developing, learning about secrets, exploring their world.

Generally speaking, we tend to think of character arcs as being upward, but I think it's helpful to think of it more as a roller coaster. There should be dips, there should be lots of places where things are going wrong.

So that's one thing that I'm thinking about as I'm putting together a series. **Then I'm also thinking about my antagonist and my conflicts.** I have often likened it to like old video games, where every level ends with a boss, but then the very end of the game has the big boss that you're really trying to defeat.

So the first boss, you have barely enough skills to defeat that first boss, and maybe it takes a few tries to beat that first level, but you do it. Oh, but now you have to do the second level, and that next boss is going to be even harder.

As you go, you're getting better. Your characters are picking up new skills, new weapons, new allies. So **at the end of every book we have a conflict, a climax, something that we have to face**, and everyone is going to be a step up, a little more difficult than the last one.

So that we know by the time our character is finally ready to face that big conflict, the big struggle, the antagonist, villain, whatever it is you have at the end of the series, that you have given them the skills that they need to actually defeat them.

Joanna: There's some great advice there. So let's come into more of the business side because you do have this section on the to-do list. I love this because the to-do list is never ending. For indie authors, we're publishing, as well as marketing and writing and everything.

How do authors say no and reduce that to-do list, in order to stop being so overwhelmed?

Marissa: Oh, my gosh. It is hard, and I will admit this is something that I personally have really struggled with. I'm a yes person. I like to say yes. I like to please people. I like to feel like I am doing everything within my power to make a book a success, to further my career. So I get it.

I absolutely get how difficult it is to recognize when we need a little space, or we need some downtime, or when we need to take a step back. For me, and I didn't come up with this, I read it in some productivity guide, self help guide, a long time ago, but it really resonated with me.

Every time you say yes to something, you are also saying no to something.

For example, if you say, yes, I will be on this panel at this book festival.

Okay, let's say you have to travel there. Let's say it's a full day being on the panel. There's probably going to be a signing. Maybe there's an author dinner. Another full day of travel going back home. So we've got essentially two to three days for that yes.

There's lots of times when, great, I can't wait. I'm looking forward to this. I'm going to meet some readers, I'm going to network with authors.

Maybe you recognize that by saying yes to that, I'm saying no to three days with my family, or I'm saying no to three days of working on my novel, or I'm saying no to a day where I could relax and spend a day reading a book and refilling my well.

So none of these are the right option, **none of them are the wrong option, but just recognizing that there are pros and cons,** and give and take, and be really picky about what you're spending your time on and what you are making your priority at any given point.

Joanna: It is interesting. You mentioned a panel there, and I feel like conferences and conventions are one of these things that is quite difficult. Now, you and I, again, have been doing this a while, so we have a community, like we have author friends.

There are people listening who might be introverts. They might feel very uncomfortable about going to writing conferences, and they're like, should I just say no to that? I guess that the question is—

When should you go to something, even if you feel you want to say no?

When do you have to push yourself as an author, and when should you give into those feelings? I know it's tough, but when have you done this as an early writer and then later stage?

Marissa: This is one of those things where I really think people have to tap into their own psyche and recognize, **what are my limitations, what are my goals?** For me, early in my career, I did it all. If I was invited to something, it was an automatic yes.

I also did not have children at the start of my career, so for me, when it really started to change, as far as recognizing my time is limited, my energy is limited, I have to step back and say no to more things, was when I had kids.

Then it really became that balancing act of, when do you focus on the writing and the career? When do you focus on family?

That said, I mean, the publishing process, the writing process, there's ups and downs. There are times when you are really focused on selling a book, on marketing a book, promoting. That's both with in-person events, doing book signings, doing the festivals. There's also social media, sending out newsletters.

There's going to be periods where you're trying to get your book noticed by readers, but that doesn't have to be all day, all the time, for years and years and years.

You can really focus on it for one, two, three months, whatever your capacity is, and then step back. Maybe take a hiatus on social media.

Maybe say, for these next five months, I need to write a new book, and I need to focus on being with my family and do some self-care. So for these five months, I'm saying no to all other requests. I mean, whatever it is. I'm just throwing out numbers. Of course, this is going to be different for everybody.

So really think about —

What are my limitations? Know that you really can't do it all.

I hate saying that because I am one of those people where I feel like I can do it all, just let me try. But you really can't.

You have to make choices sometimes and recognize that if you're trying to do it all for too long, then that's a recipe for burnout. That's the last thing we want.

**The last thing we want is to get to a point in our career where we dread the writing**, or we dread the travel, or we dread the book events.

So whenever you start to feel like it's too much, listen to that and give yourself some space. **Realize that the world is not going to fall apart if you take a little bit of time off.**

Joanna: I love that. Actually, I prefer this sort of campaign focus, which is what you were really saying there. It's like, go hard for, say, three months, and then take a couple of months off. I do that. I kind of step back from social media.

Some people feel like they have to do, I know the TikTok authors in particular, are doing a lot of videos every single day. They feel like if they stop, it's all going to end.

The race never stops, does it? It never stops unless you stop.

Marissa: It's true. There's always going to be the next goal post. There's always going to be that next thing that you're thinking, “Oh, if I just get this many followers, then I can slow down.”

Then you get that many followers, and you think, “Oh, but I've got a book coming out in two months, so I'll keep going until then, and then I'll slow down.” “Oh, but now I've got this other thing.” I mean, it's always going to push back. It's always going to be something else.

It's hard to recognize when you do need some personal space, but it's also really important. Not just for our mental health and wellbeing, but for our creativity too.

Joanna: Okay, so another thing that some people are not that happy or joyful about is pitching publishers and agents. Mostly people are quite stressed about that.

Now, you work with traditional publishers. I'm primarily an independent author. There are pros and cons.

Tell us a bit more about your experience with traditional publishing.

Any tips for people who want to position themselves in a world of publishing flux, as ever?

Marissa: Definitely **one of the most stressful periods in a career is the pitching to the agents, the querying trenches, the submission trenches**. It can do some damage on your confidence, on your everything. So it's a really difficult period.

If your goal is to be traditionally published, as opposed to independently published, and as you say, great options. **There's so many great directions that we have available to us today.**

If you really think you want to be traditionally published, of course, number one, just **make sure you've written the best book that you can. Get some feedback**. Have some critique partners go over it.

Edit and polish it to within an inch of its life.

Then when you feel like, okay, I've done the best I can do, **write your query letter**. Again, get feedback there, because query letters are particularly tricky, and there is a science and an art to them. Do your research.

Then send it off, and, number one, celebrate because it's so huge. It's such a huge accomplishment to get to the point where you're querying. So regardless of whether you get 10 agents interested and it goes to auction at publishers, or if no one bites, like regardless, you have written a complete book and submitted it.

That's so awesome, so like take a moment to congratulate yourselves and go out for pizza or whatever, whatever you do to celebrate. **Then start writing the next thing.**

The worst thing that we can do is have this book sent out, and then just spend all day, every day, worried about it and stressing about it and having that anxiety building up and checking our email 100 times a day, which like you're probably going to do anyway.

If you can, try to refocus your energy on something new, what is the next project you can be excited about?

Then dive into it, body and soul and spirit, and try to immerse yourself in a new story.

This is for a number of reasons. One, because it's going to be a great distraction. But two, **when and if your book on submission gets picked up, your agent is going to ask you, what else you got?** So it's great to have something else that you can talk about.

Joanna: Then what I do like in your book—I mean, I like lots of things—but you do also —

Talk about what might happen if you break up with an agent, or lose an agent or an editor or a publicist.

I like that you covered this because so many people think, “Oh, if I get an agent or a publisher, that's it forever. My whole life is amazing, and I'm rich and famous, and everything will work out.”

So why might some of these things happen over a career, and what's the kind of attitude you need to survive it all?

Marissa: This was one of the big surprises for me, as I started to expand my group, my network of writers, **how common it is to break up with an agent or to switch publishers, publishing houses, to switch editors. I**t happens all the time.

This was shocking to me because I very much felt like, no, when you've got an agent and a publisher, you are set forever. That is your career, those are your people. So I was really surprised that that is not the case.

There's so many reasons why one of these relationships may not work out. I've had friends whose agents have retired, whose editors have moved to different publishers. So **it might be something rather innocuous. Life just happens.**

**Or it could be a matter of just not being the right fit for each other.** Maybe your agent only represents kid lit and you want to move into adult. Or you really want to start writing romance, but they don't represent romance.

**It could be a matter of my agents not communicating with me**. Or I feel like they're no longer focused on me and my career, and I feel like I'm not getting the attention that I really need and want out of an agent.

Again, there's so many reasons, but it does happen. It's not the end of the world, it's just a little blip, another blip in your journey.

By and large, the friends I have who have left an agent, or whose agent has left their career or whatever, then when they find someone new, more often than not, **they end up feeling like, you know what? This was the right thing.**

I really took my time, I found someone new who is a great fit for me, who is excited about my career and my upcoming projects, and who is really working it and making things happen, and making book deals happen.

So I know it's really hard in that moment because you can feel like I worked so hard to get this agent, why would I ever leave them and go back to querying?

So really try to take a big picture look and think, well, I might be going through a bad spot now, but what is the potential payoff in the end? What do I stand to succeed and to gain in doing this? So it's a tough decision. It's not a fun part of the career, but it is a reality for a lot of us.

Joanna: If you want a long-term career, you're the one who is in charge.

So you just make some more choices and carry on. We don't let that end our careers.

Marissa: Absolutely, and **you're always going to be your best advocate.**

We think of our agents as our advocates, and we think of our editors as our advocates. They absolutely are, but ultimately, no one is paying as much attention to your career as you are. So we really have to speak up for ourselves, first and foremost.

Joanna: We're almost out of time, but I have to ask you about book marketing because it is a part of every author's life, and again, something where happiness and joy might not be such a big part. So how can we make marketing more fun?

What do you enjoy most about book marketing?

Marissa: Oh, my gosh. If you figure it out, you let me know.

Joanna: Well, I like podcasting. So, there you go.

Marissa: I also really enjoyed podcasting, although I did just retire my podcast because, again, too many things, too many spinning plates, and you have to make some tough choices sometimes.

For me, you know, **find the things that you do enjoy**. I learned early on, I don't like Facebook, and I don't like Twitter/X. It was difficult pulling back from those because I had a fair amount of followers, but when I did, it was clearly the right decision. I wish I'd done that a long time ago.

Then it allowed me to **focus my energy and my attention on Instagram, which is the platform that I just naturally gravitate toward best.** I just enjoy it the most.

Pick and choose the things that you do get some enjoyment out of, and then set boundaries around it.

We were talking about the TikTokers who feel like they have to make multiple videos every day. Figure out what—again, back to limitations— what is your capacity?

**Have a plan in place and say, okay, I'm going to post three times a week, or five times a week.** Or maybe I'm going do Fan Art Fridays, and I'm going do New Book Tuesdays or whatever it is, and then maybe I'll have one fun family post, or one fun “this is a quirky thing about me” post every week.

So you can kind of have a plan and break it down so that you're not every morning looking at your phone thinking, “Oh, I have to post on Instagram again,” or, “I have to do a TikTok video. Now, what am I going to talk about?”

I also think it's helpful to maybe once a month, or maybe at the start of a big promo season, spend some time doing your big brainstorming and kind of like batch.

I like batching things, like the things on my to-do list.

So I'll spend a day brainstorming what I want to post, and then I'll spend a few hours taking the necessary photos and trying to put together the captions or trying to put together the graphics or whatever. Then that's done, and I don't have to worry about that for a couple of weeks, maybe a month, if you're really productive.

So it's a really nice, efficient way to tackle that and then be able to move back to writing, which is, for most of us, the thing that we would rather be doing.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now, the book is *The Happy Writer*.

Where can people find you and all your books online?

Marissa: Thank you so much. I can be found on Instagram at MarissaMeyerAuthor, or on my website at MarissaMeyer.com. Books are available pretty much wherever you like to get your books.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Marissa. That was great.

Marissa: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
The post The Happy Writer With Marissa Meyer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Writing And Selling Short Stories With Douglas Smith** Feb 10, 2025
How can you use short stories to improve your writing craft across different genres? How can you make money from licensing your short stories in different ways? How do you structure a short story collection? Douglas Smith shares his tips.

In the intro, S&S imprint says that authors no longer need to get blurbs for their books [The Guardian]; James Patterson will be headlining Author Nation 2025; How to sell books from a table [Novel Marketing Podcast]; My lessons learned about screenwriting; *Death Valley, a Thriller*.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book *before* you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Douglas Smith is a multi-award-winning Canadian author of novels, short stories and nonfiction, with over 200 short fiction publications in 36 countries and 27 languages. He's also the author of *Playing the Short Game: How to Market and Sell Short Fiction*, now out in its second edition.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

How beginner writers can use short fiction to improve their writing craft

Overview of the different short story markets

First rights and second rights for selling short stories

Financial expectations for traditionally published short stories

Tips for self-publishing a collection

Benefits of exclusive short stories

Using Spotify playlists as a discoverability mechanism – here's a playlist of my short stories on Spotify

How to market a second edition

You can find Doug at SmithWriter.com.

Transcript of Interview with Douglas Smith

Joanna: Douglas Smith is a multi-award-winning Canadian author of novels, short stories and nonfiction, with over 200 short fiction publications in 36 countries and 27 languages. He's also the author of *Playing the Short Game: How to Market and Sell Short Fiction*, now out in its second edition. So welcome back to the show, Doug.

Douglas: Oh, thank you, Joanna. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me back.

Joanna: Oh, yes. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and short stories, in particular.

Douglas: Well, I guess I did a fair bit of writing in high school and a bit in university. Then I just drifted away from it, **pursuing a business career and raising a family**, etc. I always told myself I would go back and chase the writing dream someday.

I remember, I was in my early 40s, and I came back from a family vacation, and one of the first things I read was **the obituary for one of my all-time favorite writers, Roger Zelazny**. He was the American science fiction fantasy writer, and **he had died far too early at, I think, 56 from cancer.**

That just drove home the fact that **none of us are guaranteed of a someday**. So I started writing that summer and turned out about eight short stories. I joined a writing group to get feedback on my writing.

Then about a year and a half later, it was actually on New Year's Eve of the following year, I got my first acceptance letter. So that was a great way to end a year and start a new one. So that's how I started. **I started with short fiction. I started because one of my favorite writers died far too young.**

Joanna: What was your previous career?

Douglas: I was an IT executive. Just in case people are wondering, I remained an IT executive. **I did not give up the day job, so writing was done in spare time.** Especially when I started with short fiction, it's very hard to live and raise a family on the proceeds of short stories.

Joanna: I think that's a really important thing to say. I suspected you were going to say that. Then just with perspective—

So what year was it that you did that first sale?

Douglas: **That story came out in '97, so a long time ago. That story actually ended up winning an award**. So, yes, it was a good start, but I stayed with writing short fiction for about 10 years.

Part of that was inertia, and part of it was just writing a novel at that time seemed kind of daunting. I finally did decide that I needed, for the same someday issue, that I wanted to move into novels, and I better not wait any longer.

Joanna: Yes. I mean, obviously the publishing industry is quite different from 1997, and we'll come back to some of the other markets. What have you noticed with short fiction in particular, or in general with the indie author community, and things changing? I mean—

This book, *Playing the Short Game*, you self-published this, right?

Douglas: Yes, I did, and my novels as well. My collections, which were the first things I put out, they came out from traditional publishers that are small press publishers, one in the UK and one in Canada.

When it came to the point where **I was ready to publish my first novel, for me, I saw no upside in trying to go a traditional publishing route.**

Ironically, **my advice is quite different for short fiction**. One, I think **writers should start with short fiction** and that they should pursue the traditional short story markets that are, if anything, far more numerous now than when I started.

Thanks to the option of a lot of these short fiction magazines or anthologies, they put out ebook editions, so it's a lot easier. You don't have to worry about the physical distribution, physical production of the magazines.

There's still a lot of print magazines around, still a lot of print anthologies, but you'll find there's a lot of options for selling short fiction. Much more than when I started.

Joanna: So let's get to some of the pros and cons, I guess. So you said there you do think fiction authors should start with short stories. Why do you recommend that?

Why write short stories? What is fun about it? What are the good craft reasons?

Douglas: Yes, it is fun. I mean, if you do not like short fiction as a reader, it's going to be difficult for you to be successful as a writer. So that would be the first thing. The standard advice for any writer is you've got to be a reader.

**If you don't read, you're not going to be a writer.**

Why short fiction to start with? My main, strongest argument is that **it helps you learn your craft. It teaches you how to be a writer.**

There are far too many indie novels out there that are, quite frankly, terrible.

The good thing with short fiction is that it gives you a method where you can try out a lot of different types of stories, types of story structure. You can basically build your toolbox as a writer, and many of those tools are the same ones you're going to need if you move onto novels.

The other thing is **it gives you a benchmark**. If you're writing short stories and sending them out to professional markets—and I assume we'll get into that—you get a wonderful little measuring stick for when you've become a professional writer.

Or in other words, when your writing has become good enough that someone out there wants to pay you money to publish it, in the hopes that they will make money from what they publish.

So if you don't do that, if you just jump into indie and send your stories out into the world, put them up on retail sites, quite frankly, it's probably not going to be a very good piece of writing. It's hard to develop a craft.

One of the complaints I have with a lot of the indie writers out there is, and you see it if you go to convention, all they focus on is, “I've written a book. Now, how can I market it? Please tell me the secret to beating an algorithm.”

There are good marketing approaches. The problem is, if you come up with a good marketing approach for your novel, your first novel, it's probably going to do you more harm than good. Because if you get a lot of people to read it, and they read it and say, this is not very good, they're never going to come back to your writing.

As opposed to **if you've taught yourself the craft of writing, and you become a competent writer,** and you get to the point where professional publishers are willing to give you money for your short stories, your writing has reached that point.

So when you move to a novel, it's going to be a different beast than short stories, but you're going to have a lot of the skills already in place that you've honed over the time you've been writing short fiction.

So that's my main argument for writing short stories, is that it teaches you how to be a writer.

One more thing is, the example I love to give is, **you can try a lot more points of view: first person, third person. Different story structures**, things you want to try. Genres: horror, science fiction, fantasy, mainstream.

You can try more of those over 25,000-word short stories than you can in one 100,000-word novel.

You've written the same number of words, but you're going to come out at the end of those 20 short stories being much more knowledgeable and a better writer than writing that first 100,000 word novel.

Joanna: I mean, I totally agree with you there in terms of the potential for doing shorter stories. I mean, you said 5000 words.

What is a short story range, in terms of word count?

Because people often get obsessed with this.

Douglas: Yes, and the definitions I'll give are from the Science Fiction Fantasy Writers Association. So **a short story is anything up to, I think it's 7500 words**. Then a novelette is above that, up to 17,750 or 17,500, I can't remember which.

Then a novella is above that, up to 40,000 words. Then flash, it varies. Anything typically up to 1000 words is called flash.

Your typical short story, **if you look at markets out there, they will want something in the range of 3000 to 5000 words**. If you write above that, the other tip I'll give is, the longer the story is, the harder it will be to sell.

If you've got a 10,000-word story, and an editor loves your story, but they also love two 5000-word stories from two other writers, they're probably going to buy those two stories as opposed to your one big one. They're taking a bigger chance on your single story.

Joanna: Okay, well, let's talk about those markets then, because you mentioned the traditional short story markets, but that there are a lot more of them these days.

Give us an overview of what you mean by short story markets.

Obviously, just so everyone knows, in the book you go through this extensively. So I highly recommend people get the book for more detail, but just give us an overview.

Douglas: Well, generally speaking, your markets for any story that you write—and we're going to have to get into the rights that you'll be dealing with when you're trying to market a short story—but simply, it's a magazine.

**There are lots of magazine markets o**ut there, and those are ones that come up with a different issue—not too many do it monthly anymore—but four times a year, three times a year. **They are either in print format and/or electronic edition. So they're called serial publications.**

Then **the other main market is an anthology, the anthology markets**. Those are books that contain stories from different authors. So those are your two main options.

**Anthologies typically are themed**, so they have the advantage of, if you've got a very strange story, you may luck out and find that there is an anthology coming out of radioactive chickens from space or something. You haven't been able to sell that story of yours, and now you probably have a higher probability.

So **anthologies and magazines. The other major market would be audio markets.**

Again, there can be audio anthologies or audio zines as well, and they will be producing essentially a podcast version of your story. They will have a narrator that will read your story and dramatize it. That's the third type.

Joanna: Let's talk about the different rights.

Because it is quite different, isn't it, to long form fiction and nonfiction.

Douglas: In many ways, it's very similar. The main thing that if you're going to start writing at all is understand that you have rights.

As soon as you finished a story or a novel, you have rights associated with that creation.

So for short stories, when a publisher that you've submitted to comes back to you and says, “Hey, I love this story, I want to publish it,” we typically say, “Hey, I sold a short story.” **You actually haven't sold anything. What you're going to be doing is licensing a very particular set of rights to that publisher.**

They're going to have a number of dimensions. The first dimension I deal with in the book is, I call it the Media Dimension, and we just talked about the three different types of markets.

So if you're selling to a print magazine, they're going to want to **license print rights. If they're only in electronic format, then they'll want electronic rights**. If they're an audiobook publisher, they'll want audio rights.

So there's that, there's the three dimensions of types of media, and that's combined with whether they're an anthologist or a magazine. So for example, if I sold a story to a magazine that only has print editions, **they would want to license serial print rights.**

Serial means they're a magazine, and they need print rights to legally publish my story, because that's the format they're in. If they also have an ebook edition, then they'd ask for print and electronic serial rights.

**The other dimension is language**. So, I mean, most of your listeners are going to be writing in English.

**Then the other dimension is geography.** Some publishers, short fiction publishers, are still restricted to a particular geography, and that is usually only for print publishers. So if a magazine publishes in Canada only, and distributes in Canada only, for example, they would ask for first Canadian print serial rights.

So all these things in English, all these things, as you see, get combined into a collection of rights that they'll be licensing from you.

Joanna: You mentioned first serial rights there, and this is what's quite different.

With short stories, you might have first rights and then reprint rights.

Douglas: I call them old currents rights. **The very first time you sell a story, they will be licensing first rights from you**. It'll be first—whatever those other rights were—first print rights, first audio rights, etc.

After that, **there's a time period associated with rights, and it's called the reversion period. After your story has been published, the rights will revert to you.** Meaning that the publisher will say, “Hey, the story is yours again. You can do whatever you want with it.”

Typically, if it's a magazine, they will ask for a reversion period that will be somewhere around where the following issue comes out. So if they publish four times a year, they'll probably ask for about a six-month reversion period, and that's very fair.

Anthologists will ask for anything from a year to two years after the publication date.

So **let's say that reversion period has passed, the rights come back to you**. Those rights come back as second rights, not first rights. You only get to sell license first rights once.

When you do have those rights come back to you though, you can now, what we call, sell a reprint. In other words, you can market to another publication that accepts reprints and sell the story over and over and over again. No matter how many times you sell a reprint, you're always licensing second right.

So there's no such thing as third rights or fourth rights or anything. It's one time for first rights, and after that, **you can license second rights as many times as you can find a market who wants to publish your reprint**.

Joanna: I feel like that is one of the big differences with rights for a novel. I mean, I see a lot of authors getting term of copyright contracts, or really, really long time limits. Whereas, as you say with shorts, they're maybe six months or up to two years, but then you can keep selling it over and over again. I'm sure you have sold some of your shorts multiple times over decades.

Douglas: Yes, for sure. **I've got stories that I've sold 30-plus times.**

Joanna: Wow. So, well, then for people listening, 30-plus times—

How much money can writers expect to get for a short story for the premium traditional markets?

Douglas: So that's a good question, and it leads into what my strategy is for short fiction that I recommend to writers. It's that **you're only going to get the top rates from a short fiction market if it's a pro market**.

**Pro markets only license first rights, they don't take reprints.**

So I'll eventually answer your question, but the main point I want to make is my strong recommendation is that when you're sending your stories out, **when you try to sell them for the first time, you only submit to the top professional markets.**

That's the only time you'll ever get a chance to get into an Asimov, or a Fantasy and Science Fiction, or a Lightspeed, etc, because once you've sold that story, they're never going to be interested in it.

So you need to, as I say in the book, **start at the top. Start at your most desired markets, the ones that have the most cachet**. Those are also the ones that pay the top pro rates, and also the ones that get the most awards, press, and nods, etc.

After you get the rights back from that, you can market it to any market that takes a reprint. You'll find anything. You'll find markets that will simply publish your story and not give you any money.

**You can find markets that will pay you up to five, six cents a word for a reprint.** Whereas pro rates, I think, they're still at **eight cents a word for SFWA**. So it really ranges. So how much money you can make from a story kind of depends on what you want to sell your reprint at.

I personally warn authors that if you sell a story anytime, it's going to involve work and time on your part. So **you should set sort of a minimum dollar amount that you're willing to accept to pay you for your time to work with the editor, go over the print copy before it's published**, etc.

Joanna: So on that, eight cents a word, **it'd be around $400 then for a 5000-word story at premium market.**

Douglas: Yes. At US dollar rates, yes.

Joanna: US dollar rates. Then, let's say, in six months, you get that story back, and then you can do what you like with it. As you said, you can license it over and over again.

It's so interesting. I've written now a few short stories and have been in a few anthologies, but basically, I've never submitted to any traditional markets. Mainly because of my lack of patience and the fact that, I guess, I know that if I publish it myself and put it out right now, then I'm going to get some money.

Especially if I'm selling direct, I'm going to make more than that $400 from my own audience. So it's a very different definition of success, I guess, in terms of cachet and awards versus money in your pocket now.

I noticed that you also sell direct. How do you balance that side as well?

Douglas: Sure, so one comment on that. I mean, you have a name, and you have a huge audience and platform, so it's more conceivable that you're going to be able to indie publish a piece of short fiction and get more money than a beginner.

So **my comments are focused at the beginning writer**, and if you want to get the most mileage out of your short story that comes from selling it to a top pro market. It helps you build your resume. You can also build up a backlist.

You can attract fans and subscribers to a newsletter, using some of your short stories as reader magnets, etc.

So it helps you build up your own network. So, you know, you're in a position where you already have that. If I'm a beginning writer, my advice to them is I would still start with short fiction.

So, yes, probably about two dozen of my early short stories are available in ebook format. So those are all stories that I sold first rights for to a traditional market. So in other words, when I did an ebook for those stories, the rights had already reverted back to me. The story had been out.

A lot of them were **award winners or award finalists.** I did it at the time because I was sort of just getting into looking at indie publishing. I didn't have any novels, so I thought I'd try just putting out some of my short stories as individual ebooks, use them as reader magnets, etc.

I got a great artist who gave me a great deal on producing covers for them, so they all have the same cover. It was a price that made it sensible to try that experiment.

So, yes, if you go to Amazon, any of the retailers, if you go to the bookstore on my website, **you'll be able to buy my short stories individually.** That's not how I started, and **I would never put out a new short story that way. I'd still go to a traditional market for it.**

Joanna: Okay, I think that's really interesting. I do want to point out to everyone that I grew my audience, and that everyone has to grow their own audience over a long, long time.

You've obviously done the same thing, I think starting at different times. I started a decade after you, so 2007 was my first book that I self-published. So it's kind of interesting how things change over time.

I do want to just ask about collections because, obviously, you have collections. Here I'm saying a collection as a single author, as opposed to an anthology with multiple authors with shorts.

What are your tips around doing a collection, since I am thinking of doing this myself?

Douglas: The first step is to **make sure that you have enough quality stories**. So enough means, you know, minimum 80,000 words. I think a dozen stories that is at least that length would be reasonable.

The main point is that **those stories all have to be good**. A collection, it's like a chain is strong as the weakest length. It's going to be judged on the worst story in the book. So as soon as the reader hits a weak one, sadly, they're probably going to remember that one.

So you really need your 12, whatever, best stories. So you need to have written more than 12 stories because probably the 12 that you've written aren't the best. They all should have appeared in a top market because that is one of the ways you can tell it's a good story. Someone paid you pro rates for it.

If you have any award winners or award finalists or stories that appeared in annual best of anthologies, they go in as well. So that's the main thing. They have to be quality stories because this collection is going to be a calling card for you.

After that, it depends. The next piece, let's say you've picked your great stories that you want to put in the collection, he next thing is, what order do you put them in? The rule for doing collections or anthologies pretty much has stayed the same since I started writing, anyway.

Figure out what your best three or four stories are. You put the best one first, and another really good one last, and you put another strong one second.

So the idea is you want to pull the reader in with two really good stories and then leave them with a positive memory the collection when they read the last one.

If you have another really good one, you should put it in the middle as sort of a tent pole in case things are flagging. So that's the quality criteria for sorting through what order you want to put your stories in.

After that, it comes down to, as I say in the book, **trying to craft a reader experience**. You have to sit down and think, “Okay, they just finished this story. What should come next?” There's so many ways to do that.

I write in science fiction, and fantasy, and horror, and some Slipstream, etc. So do I mix all those? Do I put one section for all my science fiction? Do I put one section for my fantasy, etc.? The questions I put out, I alternate, but I also look at the tone. You have to look at the length too.

By tone, I mean, if you have a really, really downer story, you might want to follow that with something more upbeat. The reverse is true too.

If you have a couple that are like novel at length, you probably don't want to put them back to back. You want to have a shorter story following a long story.

It's crafting the reader experience.

Joanna: I read a lot of short story collections and anthologies, and it's more that I dip in, and I never, ever read them in order. I usually only read like one story at a time. It's something I do before I go to sleep, like just before bed.

So it's very weird because I feel like different readers have different experiences. So we can try our best, but readers might just decide to do what the hell they want. I do have two other points on this.

What about including exclusive short stories?

So I'm going to do a Kickstarter for my collection, and I'm thinking of including a couple of short stories that have not been seen anywhere else, so they're real exclusives.

Then also, I was wondering about extra material. So **I always do an author's note as to what inspired the story**. I was thinking of **expanding those sort of into interstitial pieces**. So any thoughts on those two things?

Douglas: Yes, both good points. One is if you have a story that has not been published anywhere else, you should include one of those.

One, it's a bit of a teaser. **If you have a fan who's a completist and they just want to read everything that you write, the only way they're going to be able to read that story is if they buy the collection**. So it is a good policy to include one previously unpublished short story in a collection.

**The additional material, the author notes around stories, I personally love**, and I'd recommend it. I mentioned Roger Zelazny is one of my favorite writers, and he had a lot of collections.

What I enjoyed about his collections were his either forwards or afterwards where he talks about the story and how the idea arrived, and maybe how it ties into other stories he'd written, etc. I love that.

I know I had a couple of comments on my collections where people were saying they didn't like it. They just want to read the short stories. So, I mean, you can't please everybody.

I would say, in general, most of the feedback I've received on my short stories, my collections, has been that **the reader enjoys learning more about the story**. Either how you wrote it, or why you wrote it, or whatever. So I'd recommend putting that in.

Sometimes I've done it as forwards, sometimes afterwards. Depends if there's any spoilers. Sometimes both.

Joanna: Yes, I think that's really good. I mean, I'm thinking in my special edition for the Kickstarter, I'll include photos if I can, as to some of the things that sparked the idea or a thing to make it a special, special collection. Which I feel is possible now with the print possibilities we can do.

I also wondered just on the audio, so at the moment, I narrate my own short stories and just release them as individuals. With a collection, again, I will narrate the whole thing and release that separately.

I wondered if you had any thoughts on audiobook collections for short stories?

Douglas: Interesting. I'm not sure I have the patience to do my own narration, so I think it's a personal thing. I certainly don't have the expertise to talk about producing audiobooks. I've had a lot of my short stories produced as audio plays, but that's because I've submitted them to audio markets.

There are good productions and bad productions. I've sort of found the ones that I absolutely love and who will actually cast a story, and they'll have different voice actors for the different characters. I find that just so awesome.

I think if you're an indie writer and you're thinking of doing your audiobooks, I know I would say, first of all, **am I willing to invest in the necessary audio setup? Do I have the patience to do the narration and do the editing, etc.?** I think it's a personal choice. Audio is a growing market.

Joanna: Yes, and it's really interesting because I talked to Spotify at Author Nation last year, and they said what they're often now doing is audio that's under an hour.

Generally, an hour of audio is about 9000 words, so pretty much all short stories are going to be under their range of an hour. So they're kind of serving those in their discovery thing for people's commute because that's the average commute.

So just a tip for people listening, creating playlists on Spotify of short story collections or anthologies, just with other people. You don't have to publish them. You can just link to them in a playlist.

[Here's a playlist of my short stories on Spotify, most narrated by me.]

I think that's actually a really good discoverability mechanism for things like Spotify, which is now trying to get more and more people into audio fiction and audio nonfiction.

Douglas: Yes, especially if it leads listeners to your other work.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. You can do cross promotion that way. So I can link one of my horror short stories, to one of yours, to one of Mark Leslie Lefebvre’s. So **we can make these playlists mixing stories that we like, just as a more discoverability mechanism, as I mentioned.**

So I think that's something new that's really only emerged in the last couple of years. Anything else on short stories? Because I do have one other question before we finish.

Douglas: I'm making notes here because that's going to go into the next edition, in terms of audio versions and Spotify.

I mean, there's so much to talk about. One of the reasons I put out the second edition is, well, one, it had been 10 years since the first one. Then, two, when I looked at my notes, there had been so many things that had changed over the past decade.

Joanna: Well, that is my last question. I've also just done a second edition of my *How To Write Non-Fiction*, which now includes memoir and all of this. I know a second edition can be a right pain.

So I wondered if you had any thoughts for nonfiction authors who are listening—

When do you do another edition? When is it worth it for you? Also, what is the difference in marketing it?

Since many people, including me, also have your first edition.

Douglas: What I did when I put out the first one, **my email is in the back, and people would get in touch with me via the website**. I encouraged writers to reach out to me because it was sort of my way of paying forward to new writers to write that book.

If they had any questions interpreting what I'd written, or something I didn't cover, I encouraged them to please reach out to me, and a lot of writers did. Sometimes it was just clarifying what I had in the book.

Other times it was, “Wow, that's a really good question. I didn't think of that scenario,” and I would just start to **keep a file of things to add to the second edition**.

So when I realized it had been a decade, and I started coming across things like Ralland.com, which was my go to market list, and he stopped updating his website. So I realized that there's probably a lot of other changes. I looked at that file and said, yup, there's ever so much I can put into a new edition. So it was that.

When is the right time? I think when you start to look at the first version and say, “Wow, no, that's actually not right anymore,” or, “I should say more about that particular topic.”

Joanna: What about the challenges marketing a second edition?

Douglas: I'm not big on marketing, I guess. I don't do a lot around that, and probably should do more. For this one, **I told my newsletter subscribers.** Most of them are readers, not writers, but there is some overlap.

The retailer sites help because the first edition sold pretty, pretty consistently. So, now if you go to Amazon and look for this, you're only going to find the second edition. So linking the first edition to, “Hey, there's a new edition,” things like that, but honestly, that was it.

Joanna: Well, I must say, you didn't pitch me for this. **I pitched you because I saw it in, I think it was a StoryBundle last year.**

Douglas: Yes, by Kristine Kathryn Rusch. She will do these wonderful reader bundles. She does at least one a year, etc.

I communicate with Kris and Dean fairly regularly, and she reached out to me and said, “I see you're putting out a second edition. I've got a StoryBundle that's coming out in two months. Would you have an ebook edition ready for that time frame?”

I said, “Yes, sure. Can you write a new introduction for it?”

Joanna: So I think that's important because —

People think marketing is just like paying for Facebook ads, but it's also your network, and you've been growing your network for a really long time.

Obviously, Kris is an amazing writer. She was also an editor in short story markets and all that.

So that's part of your network giving you opportunities, which is just as important.

Douglas: Yes, for sure. I know Jason, who runs StoryBundle, so it all helps. There's different ways to market.

I know Kris and Dean because I went to their workshop a couple of decades ago. The first one I went to was How to Write Short Fiction.

Joanna: Amazing.

Douglas: Led by Kris and Gardner Dozois, the late Gardner Dozois. I think Kris is the only person who beat Gardner for a Hugo for Best Editor.

Joanna: Wow. I've been on Dean and Kris's workshops and things like that, and that's kind of how I've ended up discovering your work. So just for people listening, again, sometimes these things take decades to come around, but that's okay.

Where can people find you, and your books, and your stories online?

Douglas: Sure. The best starting point is my website, which is SmithWriter.com. You can find links to my own bookstore or to all the retailer sites.

I just completed an urban fantasy trilogy called The Dream Rider Saga, and the books are *The Hollow Boys*, *The Crystal Key* and *The Lost Expedition*. *The Hollow Boys* won two awards when it came out. The third book, *The Lost Expedition*, just came out last year, and I had an earlier novel as well.

You can find links to those and all my collections on the website.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Doug. That was great.

Douglas: Okay, thanks for having me on again, Joanna.
The post Writing And Selling Short Stories With Douglas Smith first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Aristotle for Novelists, And A Strategy For Selling More Books With Douglas Vigliotti** Feb 03, 2025
**Why is ‘story' more important than ‘writing'?** How can you write characters that engage the reader? And how can you sell more books by connecting authentically? Douglas Vigliotti shares his tips.

In the intro, Bookshop.org will start selling ebooks [TechCrunch]; LinkedIn for Book Promotion [ALLi]; The Money Making Expert, branding and marketing [DOAC]; *24 Assets* – Daniel Priestley; My J.F. Penn books by location; *Death Valley, A Thriller*; Copyright and Artificial Intelligence [US Copyright Office]; *Superagency: What could possibly go right with our AI Future* – Reid Hoffman and Greg Beato

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Douglas Vigliotti is the author of four books, a poet, and podcaster. His latest book is *Aristotle for Novelists: 14 Timeless Principles on the Art of Story*.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Why Aristotle?

Creating characters that resonate with our readers — and the four important elements to keep in mind

Why story is more important than writing

Creating complications that make readers want to read on

The intersection of commerce and art

Tips for pitching podcast interviews

You can find Douglas at DouglasVigliotti.com and his latest book at AristotleForNovelists.com.

Transcript of Interview with Douglas Vigliotti

Joanna: Douglas Vigliotti is the author of four books, a poet, and podcaster. His latest book is *Aristotle for Novelists: 14 Timeless Principles on the Art of Story*. So welcome to the show, Doug.

Douglas: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. So first up, just—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing.

Douglas: My journey is long and winding, but that's probably similar to most writers. I grew up as a pretty, I would say, average or normal American childhood. Youngest of five boys, played hockey, played sports.

Believe it or not, writing and books and all of that was not even a thought in my mind until I reached probably my 20s, early 20s, mid 20s. Then kind of a light switch turned on. The first book that I ever wrote, and the first writing that I ever did publicly, was actually a derivative of my business career.

It took me following my interest, and growing as a writer and as an artist, to start exploring that more creative side of writing. Then that's how I ended up writing novels and poetry and all that good stuff.

Joanna: What was that business?

Douglas: My professional career, I started, let's see, 20 years ago. It was sales, selling.

I've sold everything from financial services, to medical devices, to payroll and tax filing, to myself.

Then I wrote a business book called *The Salesperson Paradox*, and it was in conjunction with my sales consulting company at the time, and that was how I started into my creative career. So it was totally, totally orthogonal to where I ended up.

Joanna: Well, or not. We're going to come back to that because I love this. I love that you have a sales person background.

Just so you know, I'm actually the eldest of five children. Obviously, not all boys. So being of five siblings, I completely get, which is very cool.

Let's get into the book itself. In case people don't know—

Who was Aristotle? Why write a book based on his work?

Douglas: So I think in modern day, we throw around the name Aristotle quite a bit because it's referenced a lot in pop culture. I think it's one of those things where you hear the name and you assume—I don't know what you assume. You assume smart, you assume historic, you assume legendary.

People probably don't know who he is, and that's always an interesting thing. The fact that he's lasted over 2300 years is something of a testament to itself. So **he was a philosopher and a polymath, really. I think his life, it was 384 BC to 322 BC**. He studied under Plato, and Plato studied under Socrates before him.

When I said he was a polymath, that's really essential to understanding who he is, because **he wrote over 200 works that spanned across a plethora of topics**.

From **politics, to economics, to poetics,** and all of these different subject matters that ended up becoming, in some cases, the foundational material for many of these disciplines in universities across the world.

So the fact that his ideas and his philosophies and concepts have stood the test of time is sort of a testament in itself, as I alluded to. One of the interesting things about those 200 works is that many of them, call it 80%, so I think we've only recovered 30-something of his works.

I mean, the number is kind of debated. I don't know how they quantify this, because if they're lost, how do we know how many we recovered? But they've only recovered 30-something of his works.

One of those is *Poetics*. So that is actually the nature of tragedies, but more broadly, storytelling. It's one of the major reasons why I ended up writing this book, obviously.

Joanna: You didn't say there that we're talking about Ancient Greece. So we're in Europe. I often think Americans forget that it all started over here in Europe.

Douglas: Sorry, I tend to skip over things sometimes, but you are correct. Ancient Greece.

Joanna: It's funny because we seem to be at this period in history, in literature, when people just refer a lot to, obviously, the Stoic Movement and a lot about Marcus Aurelius. Obviously, Roman emperor, but the empire that came after the Greeks. A lot of this is resurfacing, isn't it, in culture?

Do you think there's some kind of zeitgeist where this is all coming back?

Douglas: So in a general sense, or in a broad sense, I think it's more comfortable for people to reference people who are already gone, so to speak. I don't think it's as easy for people to credit living legends or living thinkers as it is to credit people who are gone. So I think there's something to that.

I also think that there's something to the idea of **grabbing onto something that gives people a framework to think that they know**, even though they might not really know. Like foundational philosophical thinkers, they were at some of these topics first, so they have some really strong ideas around a plethora of things.

So I think when we bring them to life, to this day and age, we realize, wow, there's really—and I'm going to use a biblical quote here, not to be religious—but it's nothing new under the sun.

We are living these same issues over and over and over again, and I just think that there's a lot of resonance for that.

Look, I think there's a certain thing to nostalgia that we have as a society. It's a saleable commodity.

I didn't write this book because I was trying to fill a void with Aristotle and his ideas and storytelling. To me, **when I started to research story as a concept, everything started funneling back to Aristotle**. Then I realized, wow, everything is there. You know, it was how I learned about story.

So the fact that Aristotle, his ideas in this book came to fruition, was more of a function of me realizing that all the theorists in modern day, or practitioners for that matter—so people in the dramatic world, like Aaron Sorkin or David Mamet or a lot of these people, they'll often reference Aristotle.

Or if you read theorists like Robert McKee, they'll often reference Aristotle. So for me, it was only natural to then double down on Aristotle, and read *Poetics*, and read multiple translations of *Poetics*, and really understand the text.

Then what I quickly realized was **how resonant these ideas were in modern storytelling, on both the screen, the page, and in our lives**. I think that that's one of the big things that drew Aristotle to storytelling in general was how intrinsically linked it is to living, because we live stories.

So I think that the principles that we'll talk about, or some of these ideas that we'll talk about, they are applicable to our life, as well as they are applicable on the page and on the screen.

Joanna: Yes, and of course that quote you mentioned is from the book of *Ecclesiastes*. I quote that in a number of my novels, actually. It's probably my favorite book of the Bible, *Ecclesiastes*.

I think part of that is what you're talking about, is that —

There are principles in human nature, as well as principles in story, that don't change, regardless of how many millennia go past.

I was thinking as you were talking, like maybe part of the reason we're re-latching onto this now is because there's so much change in the world. With AI, and technology, and social media, and all this constant stream of stuff that there is—

**Maybe we're sort of harking back to things that don't change, and that perhaps helps a little.**

Douglas: I totally agree with you. I think when we're talking about stories specifically, there are a couple fundamental elements that are there in almost every story that we tell, at least in Western society.

In Western society, the stories we tell, almost all of them, even in sprawling epics or multiple storyline plots and all this stuff, they have three characteristics that are always there.

That's a protagonist who wants something, and there's obstacles standing in their way. Those obstacles come both externally and internally.

I think if we zoom out and we look at our lives, Joanna Penn's life, Douglas Vigliotti's life, I'm a protagonist who wants something, and I have obstacles standing in my way that are both internal and external.

Do I overcome those obstacles?

Well, then we end up with an Aristotelian comedy. I end up better off at the end, even if it's only temporarily.

Do I succumb to those obstacles, both internal and external? Well, then we have an Aristotelian tragedy because I end up worse off.

So these ideas are baked right into our lives. **You can see the framework for story everywhere as you walk through life** if you understand these core components of what makes up a story. Again, like I said, at least in a Western sense.

Joanna: Yes, well, since we're on characters then. A quote from the book, you say —

“Novels should contain true characters.”

Now, I find this word ‘true' extremely difficult because fiction, you know, it's fiction. True, in general, is very hard. So what do you mean by this?

How can we create characters that resonate?

Douglas: I think that you hit the nail on the head. True has multiple meanings to multiple people. I'm speaking specifically in the sense of what would Aristotle say would be true.

To Aristotle, there's four elements to characters, in general. **They are goodness**, so it's your characters are good if their choices are good. **Appropriateness** would be, are they acting appropriately? Not right or wrong, but based on who they are, are they acting truly to who they are? So are they acting appropriately?

So that directly links to this trueness of character in, are you writing characters that are true to who that character is? Not true to real life, true to who that character is. There's a big difference there. It's not about fact and fiction.

The third element is **relatability**. That has more to do with, are you making the character relatable? So are you giving them characteristics that embody human characteristics? The best way to do that is through imperfection.

Despite what our world wants to try to convince us every day —

We are relatable because of our imperfections —

not because of our perfections. So there's this big chasm between what we see every day and what we should be depicting in our stories or on the page, and what we actually relate to.

If we sat down and had a conversation, we're probably going to relate based on some of our struggles more than we're going to relate on some of our successes.

Then the fourth piece is consistency. Even if you were to write a character, a true character, who is inconsistent, Aristotle would say, by nature, they should be consistently inconsistent.

We see this all the time in storytelling with unreliable narrators. They are consistently inconsistent. What ends up happening with those unreliable narrators is this ties into something else that Aristotle talks about or that you can observe in stories, but eventually what they say doesn't line up with what they do.

It's always what a character does, it's always what we show, it's always about action. That is the more important piece. So we can get into trouble in life or in stories if we're only listening to what characters are saying. I could say one thing and do another, and doing is more important than saying.

So to answer that question and peel back to it, those are the four characteristics that would make up a true character in an Aristotelian sense.

Joanna: Yes, I think it's an interesting way forward. I like the relatability because if you're writing, let's say sci fi, and you have aliens there, or you're writing something literary and writing from the perspective of like a plant or an animal or something—

You still have to have relatability to the human who is reading the book.

That kind of comes across whatever type of character you're writing, essentially.

Douglas: 100%. Aristotle is very specific in Poetic, saying that he believes that the two reasons why storytelling began for us humans, one is because of imitation. **So we learn how to imitate to live.** So as young kids, we imitate the world around us, the people around us, our parents, and that's how we learn how to actually live.

So storytelling is a derivative of that. So we should be imitating what is happening in the real world. Not writing realist fiction or realist work, but we should be embracing all of human nature has to offer, because that is why, according to Aristotle, storytelling actually began.

It's what's relatable to humans, so we should be reflecting all of those qualities in our work.

For anyone who's interested, the second reason is **rhythm**. So he thinks we have a natural rhythm, and I tend to agree with him because even if you are writing, all writers know voice, they know pacing, they know tone.

Rhythm to your prose, just like rhythm in music, is really, really important.

I think this is one of the big reasons why, as a writer, you don't even need to know grammar to be able to write. If you have rhythm, it's going to work on the page. You have editors for that stuff.

I think musicians are great examples of this because so many of them don't learn how to—you know, top level musicians, I mean, people who are iconic. In the book I talk about some examples of Billy Joel, and Bruce Springsteen, and American musicians who didn't know how to read music, and things turned out pretty well for them.

Not to say that that's the benchmark, but it's countless, the amount of “I don't know how to read music, I learned how to play the guitar.” All of that's based off of rhythm. **Writing and voice on the page is no different, really. Aristotle would call that your meter, your poetic meter.**

Joanna: Yes, that's interesting. Actually, you do say this in the introduction,

“Writing is not story.”

I guess there you mentioned you don't have to know grammar to write story, and this is a tension. Of course, you're a poet as well, and writers often prioritize the intricacies of language before the story.

Especially in this sort of age of AI, when word generation, however you generate words, whether you're writing them by hand or you're generating them with AI, that doesn't matter so much.

How can we prioritize story over the intricacies of writing?

Douglas: So, for me, this is a really important distinction. I think oftentimes writers, at least through conversations that I have with them, we confuse writing and story.

To me, there's a very, very clear distinction, in that story is governed by what I would call principles, whereas writing is governed by style.

I really have no interest in telling someone how I think they should write their story. I don't even believe that you can. Even the best prose—and I'm using air quotes because best is so subjective—it could take me 15, 20 pages to get used to that writing or I could never get used to that writing.

Writing is that different from person to person, writer to writer. I have this funny saying, where it's, “Story is why they come, writing is why they stay.”

Writing is the tool that writers utilize to tell their story. Story is the foundational component of what you are trying to achieve.

That's why you can watch movies, you can listen to audiobooks, you can engage with all these other forms of media and learn how to tell story. That doesn't mean you're going to learn how to write because writing is a different thing.

Aristotle does have some ideas on what he thinks around style, of course, and I have my own opinions on that as well.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to achieve with *Aristotle for Novelists*, let's say, is more of a foundational education on the principles of what makes up a story. So there is a difference between the two, at least in my view.

Joanna: So I guess one of the other things, we talked a bit about character there, but we should also talk about plot. You say,

“Novels have a complication and a resolution.”

What are complications, and how can we create those that fascinate readers and make them want to read on?

Even though they may, or sometimes we feel like, maybe they've heard this before or read this before?

Douglas: So my favorite Aristotle quote is, “Many poets tie the knot well, but unravel it ill.” What he's talking about there—and when he says poets, he's talking about something much wider in scope than literally poets. The same could be said, by the way, for poetics in general.

What he meant by poetics is something much larger in scope than poetry, so for anybody who's wondering that.

What he's talking about there is the difference between a complication and a resolution. So we all know that when we come to our stories, we come because we have an idea for the complication of that story. **We have a character who is put in a situation and we wind that up.**

What he's saying is that it takes the truly great writers the ability to unwind that, to unravel that knot. There's so many ways that we could go wrong when we're doing that. Whether it's lack of believability, lack of cohesion, illogical, impossibility, irrationality.

There's so many different ways that we could falter as we try to resolve the complication that we depicted in the early part of our story. I find it helpful when I read books and when I watch movies—I'm a bit of a story junkie, so I do both quite a bit.

I look particularly for, **when does that writer or when does that story begin to unravel the knot?** Some would say, in a traditional three-act structure sense, you begin to unravel the knot—and Aristotle would say this—when that change of fortune actually happens.

So if it's at a tragedy, it would be when that character is at the ultimate high before they fall. Or if it was in a comedy, it would be at that ultimate low before they rise. You start to unravel that knot a little bit.

I find it helpful to start thinking about and answering little questions that you propose earlier in your novels, somewhere around the midway point. Never actually answering that big question, right?

You want to keep that tension for as long as possible.

Then there's other people who would suggest you keep that tension as taut as possible all the way through until you get to the very, very end. So what you'll find is there's a lot of differences in how people achieve this.

I think one of the things that you will see consistently is there is a complication and there is a resolution. One of the things that Aristotle is really, really insistent about is he calls it **avoiding Deus Ex Machina. So things coming from outside of your plot to solve plot problems.**

I see this all the time, I'm going to be honest, in stories where it's like, solve the plot problems within the existing world that you depicted. Now, obviously you can introduce new characters and all of that stuff, but when stuff comes out of left field to solve a plot problem, you're not unraveling the knot well, so to speak.

He has a great quote, and he says,

“The solution to a plot problem should come from the story itself.”

I find that to be a really informative quote, and also a benchmark to try to hit every time you write a story. Whether that story is short as a poem in five sentences, or whether it's extrapolated out to an 80,000 word novel.

Joanna: That's actually great. People are like, oh, but how do I do that? Then I'm like, well, that's why we do self-editing, because if you get to a point in your book and you finish your book, **you just go back and edit in something earlier on in the process.**

So I don't understand how people can't figure that out later on. As you say, you can just put in things earlier on that will help you resolve it later. That's why we edit. So I think that's quite cool.

I want to come back to something you said earlier about your previous career and your book, *The Salesperson Paradox*. I feel like this is a problem for most authors. So if you're a poet, you've got this book, *Aristotle for Novelists*, you've got other books, and you also come from sales.

So how are you marketing your books? How are you selling your books?

How can authors who care about the craft also care about sales and marketing?

Douglas: I do think that they are driven by two completely different motors. I have this conversation since I have my toe in both worlds, and I have for a long time now. **The creative side is run by a different engine than the business side is, at least for me.**

I do think one informs the other when you start thinking about what it's like when your actual work hits the real world and becomes a commercial entity. Just because you're near and dear to it, and it's so close to you. Believe me, I write super personal stuff, so I totally, totally get it.

For anybody who's out there saying, “I'm an artist, and I write from the heart,” —

The intersection of commerce still exists if you want to sell your work to people, if you want your work to be seen.

For sales, there's one thing that *The Salesperson Paradox* hits on, and that has been the bedrock for my success in that world. It's simply helping people get what they already want. We lose sight that there's people out there that already want what you have. You have to find them and give it to them. That's it.

It's that simple. You're never going to force somebody to want something that they don't want, but if you find the people who want the thing that you provide, you will be able to sell much more of whatever you're selling.

It's a matter of helping, not selling.

You're helping somebody get what they want, not selling them a good or a service. It's face to face, over the phone, on a zoom, anywhere. That distinction is critical.

If we look at books in general, I often say that there's four elements to value, and that value framework is **time, status, ease and money.** So we all want things that save us time or increase the speed of things.

Apps do that, you mentioned AI before. All of that hits on time value. Time, it's a value driver, innate value driver for humans.

Ease. **Am I making it easy for the person** to say yes, or am I making it hard? The easier I make it for someone to say yes, the more likely they're going to say yes. You can infuse that into when you're doing outreach via email or outreach via phone.

**How easy are you making it for people to say yes?** Come have this conversation with me about your book or whatever. There's multiple ways that you could go about something. Are you making it easy for someone to say yes? That's a big driver for us. It's a big driver for me, and it's a big driver for most people.

Status is another huge innate human driver. We all have people we want to look good toward, and can I help that person look good towards those people? That is a huge, huge value driver.

It happens in a micro-sense when you're dealing with people on a one-off level, like a one-on-one level. So it's like, I don't know, maybe that person wants to look good to their mother. Maybe this person wants to look good to an audience. Maybe this person wants to look good to their boss.

Can you help that person look good to that individual? That's a huge innate value driver because we are all status creatures, whether we want to admit it or not.

The fourth piece is money. **If you can make someone money or save them money, that's a huge value driver**. So I always look at when I'm trying to sell things on a commercial aspect, how could I fit it into that value equation, whether it's on a micro sense or a macro sense.

I know that if I'm able to create some kind of value proposition around that, at least I'm going to have a story that I'm going to be able to communicate. So that's going to put me in a better position to actually sell things. I hope that's helpful.

Joanna: It's helpful as a framework. So like if someone has a thriller novel or a sci-fi novel—

How does that fit into that framework when there are lots of other thriller novels and sci-fi novels out there?

Douglas: 100% agree with you. It becomes really hard when you're talking about fiction.

I have a podcast, it's called Books for Men, and when I have conversations with other men about books—because the podcast is designed to inspire men to read—the number one thing is that most of them aren't reading fiction, and they're reading nonfiction.

**The reason why they're reading nonfiction is because it has a higher value proposition**. So when we're looking at the bigger picture, fiction struggles to sell consistently for a lot of people because it doesn't fit into the value framework.

The only way that you're going to be able to get people to consistently buy your products is by developing your own relationship with them and creating things.

Like creating a podcast, having a blog, you have to do that.

If you don't do that, you're never going to sell the thing consistently, unless you just want to roll the dice and look hope for luck. I think that **in a world of AI, that personal connection as creators, writers, filmmakers, is going to be even more important.**

People are going to want to buy from people that they know, like, and trust. So the more you can build that personal connection with people, the better off I think you're going to be in the long term.

So while people are all concerned about the craft element of writing a thriller novel—believe me, I'm a craft junkie, and I totally empathize with that—but —

You should also be thinking about, how am I going to create a personal connection with my readers?

Do they know what Joanna Penn is about? Do they know what Douglas Vigliiotti is about? If they do, they're going to be more likely to buy from you. In an art sense, it's really the only strategy that you have moving forward.

Unless you're lucky enough where you're that one in a million shot, where your work just shoots up the charts and everything you become after that becomes saleable.

You hit on something very, very important. Fiction in art doesn't necessarily fit into that framework, and that's what makes it such a challenge to sell it.

Joanna: Yes, or you pay a ton for Amazon and Facebook ads. That's another way.

Douglas: For me, that's a tactic. It's not a strategy. Like, so that's a great tactic, but to me, tactics are endless. Like they're endless. What works for some people, might not work for somebody else.

Strategically, I think the better bet is to try to create something where people can find you being you.

It goes back to that whole help people get what they already want. Do your best to create the thing and draw people that would like that thing into it. Not try to create the thing for people.

Just create the art, create the thing, and then try to build the framework around your creative career that people come in and they engage with you because they're interested in you. To me, that's like the only selling point that we're going to have as we move forward into this new world, 10, 20, 30 years.

I mean, people have a really myopic view about what is happening with AI right now. It's not meant to scare people. It's just how crowded and how cloudy the content and art and creation aspect already is, it's going to get 10 times worse.

So the only thing that I think is worth investing in, from a sales standpoint, is individuality and **building something that is personally who you are, and so people can engage with that.**

I know that's scary for a lot of writers, but to me, it's inevitable. It's the only thing that we have, the only selling point we have moving forward.

Joanna: Yes, I often say —

Double down on being human.

Your voice, and your face, and I'd say an author's note in the back of fiction grounds your story and why you care as a person.

On this, you have a podcast, Books for Men, as you mentioned. Obviously, I have this podcast, I've had other podcasts. I think voice is a big thing. As you say, people can get to know you, like you, and trust you. So I'd say podcasting is a great way to do book marketing. Obviously, you think the same thing.

Just as tips for people listening, if people listening want to pitch a podcast, not you or me, obviously, but other podcasts—because I get terrible pitches every single day. Your pitch was very good.

What are your tips for people who want to pitch for podcast interviews around their books?

Douglas: Get to the point. Not you. That's the tip.

**Get to the point. The briefer you can make it, and the more pointed** that you could make it, the better off you are. If I could do the email in three sentences, I would do it. If it has to be five, then I'll do it in five. If it has to be 10, then I'll do it in 10.

I want to make the email as short as I possibly need to make it so you understand why I'm emailing you, where the benefit is, and what I'm asking you to do.

Even when I had my own podcast where I was doing a lot of interviewing, I was reaching out to a lot of really big names in the space and trying to get them to come onto the show because that's how I thought I was going to be able to drive audience. Even in that sense, I was doing extremely short emails.

So most people when they email somebody, they think that telling them everything they need to know because they don't want to miss a little possible thing that could spark Joanna, or Doug, or somebody, to say, “Oh, I like that.”

The reality is, is if as soon as you get an email from somebody that is a chunk of text, you don't read any of it.

The shorter that you can make the email, the more prone that person is to actually reading it and being super, super pointed.

The other rule is, if you wouldn't say it in real life, don't say it in an email. I think emails live forever, and we forget that when you press send, that email is going to sit there.

I've sent a lot of bad emails over the years to learn this lesson, and me thinking to myself, wow, how did I say that in an email?

Now one of the biggest things that I focus on, aside from brevity, is would I say this to this person face to face? If I wouldn't say it face to face, then I wouldn't put it in an email.

It turns out that those two things go hand in hand. How often do you go up to somebody and read them three pages of material about who you are, what you're doing, what your books are about? Never. What you do is you get right to the point. “Hey, I'm Doug. I'm a writer. X, Y and Z,” blah, blah, blah, whatever.

I mean, that's not what I would say in an email, but you do it short and brief, and then let the person respond.

Joanna: Just to come back there, you said, “what the benefit is,” and you said that quite quickly.

Just to be clear, it's the benefit to the podcaster, not the benefit to the author.

I get so many pitches that say, “I'm blah, blah, blah author. I've written this book. When can I schedule myself onto your show for my book tour?”

Douglas: Well, here's the thing, with books specifically—you know this better than anybody, you probably get tons and tons—podcasts have almost become an adjunct of the publishing industry. A new book comes out, and now this is the best way to sell this.

It's the same method that was utilized forever, where you'd go on radio talk shows, you'd go on Johnny Carson, I don't know, like all these talk shows.

Now that there's podcasts, and because of technology there's so many of them, what the publishing industry realized is the best way to sell books is the same way it's always been to sell books, which is get people on shows and get people in front of audiences that they don't already have.

So now, people like yourself and all of these podcast hosts are getting hundreds and hundreds of pitches, especially if the show is popular, getting so many of these. So what could you do to stand out from that? Get it so someone would actually read it.

So how do people read things?

If it's short and to the point at **why it would be beneficial for that person to have you on the show, then in my world, you're more prone to get through**.

Again, this is not something that I've just utilized in outreach with podcast pitching. I have 20 years of sales experience where I've utilized this in other aspects too, to get in front of prospective buyers and whatnot.

It's short, and it goes back to what I was saying before. You want good guests. I don't have guests on my show anymore, but I would want good guests on my show. What I don't want is a long, extended email about all these different things.

What I do want is a short, polite, direct email of telling me why you're emailing me and why it would benefit me to have you on the show, in as short as possible. I found that people, in general, they respond well to that strategy over the span of life, not just in the podcast world.

It's because you're putting it in their world. I'm having respect for you. I'm having empathy for you.

You're reading a million emails, so how could I make it easy for you to say yes to me?

Something that I was talking about before, am I saving you time? And status, am I making that person look good if they have me on the show? These are all things that a human would innately consider, even if they're not consciously considering them.

So you could sell something, yourself in this situation, via email by utilizing that value framework that I was referencing before.

Joanna: Fantastic. So lots of tips there.

Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?

Douglas: So it's very, very easy. For me, just go to my website, DouglasVigliotti.com. If you want to know more about the podcast, BooksForMen.org is the best place to check that out. Again, that's a podcast to inspire more men to read. Then for the book, it's AristotleForNovelists.com.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Doug. That was great.

Douglas: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

The post Aristotle for Novelists, And A Strategy For Selling More Books With Douglas Vigliotti first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Fair Use, Copyright, And Licensing. AI And The Author Business With Alicia Wright** Jan 27, 2025
How does generative AI relate to fair use when it comes to copyright? What are the possibilities for AI licensing? Alicia Wright shares her thoughts on generative AI for authors.

In the intro, Publishing leaders share 9 Bold Predictions for 2025 [BookBub]; OpenAI launches Operator [The Verge]; Bertelsmann (who own Penguin Random House) intends to work with OpenAI to expand and accelerate the use of artificial intelligence (AI) in the media, services, and education sectors; *Death Valley — A Thriller*.

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Alicia Wright is an intellectual property lawyer for a technology company, and also writes science fiction and mystery as Alicia Ellis. With two degrees in computer science and an MFA in writing popular fiction, she is expertly placed to comment on AI as it applies to writers.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Using AI as a brainstorming partner and collaborator

AI as fair use because it creates something transformative

Using the right prompts to produce quality outputs from AI

AI is the next technological change in our society

Licensing your IP for training and AI usage — what to look for in contracts

Training the AI systems to include your work in generative searches

Developing your authorial voice and creative confidence

Uitlizing AI agents in your author business

You can find Alicia at WriterAlicia.com and on social media @WriterAlicia.

Transcript of Interview with Alicia Wright

Joanna: Alicia Wright is an intellectual property lawyer for a technology company, and also writes science fiction and mystery as Alicia Ellis.

With two degrees in computer science and an MFA in writing popular fiction, she is expertly placed to comment on AI as it applies to writers, which we're talking about today. So welcome to the show, Alicia.

Alicia: Thank you so much, Jo. I'm happy to be here.

Joanna: Oh, I'm excited to talk to you. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing, and also into AI and technology.

Alicia: All right. Well, I should say that **I got into AI and technology first. I was always one of those science and math people**. Math was my favorite subject in school. Not a lot of people say that, but I loved math. I loved the sciences. I always was reading forward in my textbooks.

Then my mother didn't want us watching TV, so we read a lot of books. I got into writing poetry, writing song lyrics, writing short stories, and the creative side of me came out.

It never occurred to me to write something longer—because I was a math/science person—until I got into law school, and there you have to write all the time. You have to write briefs, you know, these 30 page documents.

Then it occurred to me that, hey, I'd like to write a novel. So I would say the technology interest was always there, and the creative interest, the writing, came later.

In my work as a patent attorney, **I have encountered AI-related applications throughout the years, even generative AI technologies as far as 10 years back**. So I had an interest in that even before it became relevant to the writing industry.

Joanna: So when did you get into writing fiction? How many years have you been writing fiction, as well as doing your incredible job?

Alicia: **I have been writing fiction, specifically long form fiction, for as long as I have been a lawyer**. The time is almost exact. I know this because I was in my final year of law school and sort of had this crisis. Like, I'm graduating law school, do I want to be a lawyer?

I spent time thinking about that. Just sat down for really a day and went through what I would do if it wasn't law. I decided that I did want to do law, but I also wanted to write novels.

So as soon as I graduated law school, I enrolled in some local writing courses. So I've been practicing law and writing for the same amount of time.

Joanna: Which is approximately?

Alicia: 17 years. **I got into indie publishing in maybe 2013, but I've been writing for 17 and a half years.**

Joanna: Brilliant. So you mentioned there that you, as a patent attorney, you look at AI applications. You did mention using a bit of generative technology there.

How do you currently use AI tools as part of your creative and business processes?

Alicia: In my business work, well, **I see a lot of AI technologies in what I'm writing patent applications for**, and that's what I was referring to before.

In **managing a patent portfolio at the cybersecurity firm** where I work right now, I definitely use AI technologies to help inventors organize their thoughts when they submit to us to do analyses. Sometimes I'm dealing with a huge patent portfolio, and **AI can help organize the analyses and my thoughts on that.**

In my writing, I use it mostly at the planning stages as a brainstorming partner. I love AI as a brainstorming partner.

I always tell it that it's my junior partner because it tends to go off on its own, and I like to reel it in to run the show, if you will.

I give it my ideas. Often I'll ask it to, say, **“Give me five ideas on how to put these things together,”** or, “Give me 10 ideas on how to put these things together.” Even if they're bad ideas, it helps me sort of organize my thoughts. Like, why don't I like these ideas?

So, together, we walk through what I want to do. We create a Save the Cat outline. Which I usually start it off once we have all the ideas on the table, I ask it to create the Save the Cat outline.

Usually, I have a lot of changes. We make those changes, and then we'll break it down into a scene list that follows the three act structure.

I often have it generate character sketches and setting sketches —

because, honestly, I'm no good with thinking about what does this setting look like. What kind of house is this? Bricks? Facade? I don't care. So the AI is really helpful with that.

**There's a lot of editing, a lot of back and forth. AI is a great partner for brainstorming and plotting.**

When we get into the writing, my authorial voice is really important to me, in part, probably because I have diagnosed OCD. I have experimented with using AI in pretty much every aspect of my process, but **for me, personally, the writing part I have to do.** I would spend more time editing AI output than I would have just writing it myself.

I tend to use dictation and input the dictation output into ChatGPT to clean it up —

— and they'll catch the dictation error, so I have a much cleaner copy going forward. Then when I'm done writing, I'll use a little AI for developmental editing.

Joanna: I love that. You sound similar to me in the way you're using it. You're using the word ‘partner', your junior partner, your collaborator. You use the word ‘we', which I really like as well because I feel that too.

Like with Claude, I feel this is almost my—not so much co-writer—but like you said, collaborator. It really is a backwards and forwards way of doing it.

I can hear the smile in your voice, and I have a smile in my voice as well, because this is fun, right? This makes it more fun for us.

Alicia: It's so fun, and **I feel like my work is better, that this brings out a better side of me.** Connections that I hadn't made, problems that I didn't foresee. It's having a partner, so that it's improved. It's not just me, it's me plus some artificial intelligence.

Joanna: Yes. So we could geek out about how amazing it is all day, but I did want to ask you about some of the objections that authors have. You did this great talk at Author Nation, and you were so clear on it.

I don't think there are many people in our community who have degrees in computer science and law, and an MFA, and are an active indie author. I think you're the only person, right?

Alicia: Maybe.

Joanna: Maybe.

Let's start with one of the most common objections from authors, which is, “AI companies stole our work.”

What are your thoughts on this, and how does it relate to fair use?

Alicia: So when I think of the word stolen, I think of an illegal taking. So I think, are we talking about copyright infringement here? **I would say, in my opinion, that the work is not stolen.**

The reason I phrase it that way, in my opinion, is because I'm sure a lot of folks know, **there's ongoing litigation about whether the use of copyrighted works in training data is copyright infringement**.

Until those are actually decided, until those cases are actually decided, I can't say definitively, but I feel pretty confident that the training of AI using copyrighted works is fair use.

Fair use is an exception to copyright infringement. Basically it says, yes, we copied copyrighted works, except we did it for a use where this exception is cut out.

Fair use exists in order to allow us to grow from existing copyrighted works, to spur creativity so that you can create based on what already exists.

There's four factors in the US that courts consider for fair use, and one of the key factors is, is your use transformative?

I think that's really important to what fair use is about. **Have you created something new?** Have you created something that can be used in a different way?

I feel strongly that the use of copyrighted works to train AI is so transformative, and is what fair use is about.

There's case law that's related to using copyrighted works, even for AI in the past, but not for generative AI in the way we're talking about now. I feel that the case law is pushing US courts towards saying that this is fair use. We will see, probably in a couple years, for sure.

I would say that **I don't feel like AI is theft**. I feel like it will be shown at a later date that AI is not theft, but I can't say 100%. **I certainly think that it is premature to say that it is theft.**

Joanna: It's interesting. I mean, I would have thought that the US would be further ahead on this. Maybe with your incoming Trump administration, those cases might get settled more quickly.

Here in the UK, our government has literally, like yesterday, come out with the AI plan, and they are almost pushing for an exception around data training in copyright, which is really interesting. We have a very different rule around this.

The argument here with the British government is that these strict things restrain innovation or restrict innovation. As you mentioned, **fair use is so we can have more innovation, and we don't want to stifle that.**

Alicia: Exactly.

Joanna: Another thing that I hear is that ChatGPT and all of this, they're just “plagiarism machines.”

They can't create anything original. They can only spit out things that come from other people's work. What are your thoughts on that?

Alicia: Calling AI plagiarism, saying that that's all it does, **reflects a basic misunderstanding of how AI works at a technical level**.

These generative AI models at their core are statistical models.

They've taken in—read, if you will—millions, billions of pieces of writing or images, in the case of the image generators.

Then based on basically statistics—it's much more complex than that, but I'm going to simplify it by saying it's a statistical model—it determines what token—a token could be a word or a symbol, like a period—what token comes after the previous token, and it forms output based on that, one token at a time.

The reason I want to emphasize that it's one token at a time is that you're not lifting even phrases from existing work. It's not at the phrase level. It's at the word level, just like you and I write.

You can't take a combination of words taken from millions of other works and say you plagiarized it because you took a word that was over here and a word that was over there.

**It's not a logical reflection of how AI works at the technical level**.

Asking, can it only create things that already exist? I would say humans also can only create things that already exist. We all learn from what exists. You're going to see cliche phrases in AI output because, statistically, you'll see words together that you often see together in writing.

So you're going to see things like, “She released the breath that she didn't know she'd been holding,” because you've seen it a lot of other works. In the same way that that's not plagiarism when you write it, it's not plagiarism when the AI writes it, either.

Joanna: I keep hearing people say —

“Oh, this is a crap book. It must have been generated by AI,” —

with the assumption that only bad quality writing can be generated. So given that you and I use this a lot, our prompts are very, very different to somebody who is brand new to generative AI.

Do you think that the quality—and I know quality is a tough word—but—Is the quality of writing from generative AI when you use the right prompts?

Alicia: I think —

Prompts make a huge difference.

Especially if you're using AI for the writing part, say, for a first draft or for a final draft, however you use it in the actual writing part, I think it's important to prompt it to write like your authorial voice.

The more you do that, I think it's going to be closer to you and may even be better writing, assuming that your author voice is well developed. I think if you just ask the AI—well, I've seen from experience—that if you just ask the AI to write something, it's not necessarily going to be a style that's appropriate for what you're writing.

The more specific you are about how that writing should look, or even give it samples of your writing, describe your own writing, the writing gets better. By better, I mean closer to what you as an author want it to be.

The more specific you are in your prompt, the more you learn how to talk to the AI in a way that it interprets the way you want it to.

Joanna: Yes, I agree. I mean, sometimes my prompts can be like 100 words. With Claude, I'm prompting with whole sentences and beats and all kinds of things that at the beginning of my use I didn't necessarily know how to do.

Again, coming back to the co-writer idea, the collaborator idea, it's like working with another person. You mentioned you're OCD. I'm not OCD, but I'm certainly into control around my writing.

I found it very hard to work with a human co-writer, but I love working with Claude for this reason.

[My use of the AI tools] developed over time. You don't just do it from your first interaction.

Alicia: Right. I 100% agree with that. I've been using AI in my work, in my planning for my writing, and bits and pieces in my actual writing since it first went mainstream the end of 2022.

**My prompts are so much longer now than they were then because I've learned how they're going to respond.**

Then my prompts for different AI models are different. My prompts for Claude might be different than my prompts for ChatGPT because I have a sense of how they interpret things.

My prompts have gotten more specific, and I chain my prompts together because that's something you learn. It's a skill, using generative AI as a tool.

Joanna: Yes, and that is why I've been harping on about this for so long, because every month that goes past that people don't even try it for little things, they are missing out on time to learn what is essentially, what I think, it kind of **underpins the next technological change in our society.**

A bit like the internet changed so much, this is going to change so much. Do you feel it's that significant, as well?

Alicia: That is going to change a lot? Absolutely, and there's a lot of change that I look forward to. I'm interested in how the writing industry is going to look when these legal cases are decided. Speculate and say that it's determined that it is okay to train AI models based on copyrighted works.

I'm interested to see how those who are so anti-AI in the writing industry would respond to that. But more than that —

I'm interested in what's coming next. What's going to happen with AI next?

I'm hard of hearing, and I'm really looking forward to outside of the writing industry, some sort of captions. You know, they're making smart glasses. **I want smart glasses with captions**. I'm just waiting for it. I'm rubbing my hands together. I can't wait. **Some of this stuff is going to be life changing.**

Joanna: Wow, okay. So you mean you're looking at someone while wearing the smart glasses, and as they speak, you'll see captions of what they're saying?

Alicia: That's the dream.

Joanna: That is amazing, and of course, why wouldn't you have that? That just seems very sensible. So I don't even think that's that far away, surely. Let's hope so.

Well, look, let's come to those court cases. So **in the USA, and there are still these open court cases against various AI companies**, but there are also now **far more companies that have done intellectual property licensing deals for data training**, including some publishers and media companies.

Now, as we record this in the middle of January 2025, a company called CreatedByHumans.ai has just launched, and they're partnering with the Authors Guild in the US. The aim is to help authors license their IP for training and AI usage.

Now, this is a non-exclusive thing, and authors can choose how the data is used.

What are your thoughts on the opportunities of this kind of licensing for AI and what should authors keep an eye out for in any contracts?

Alicia: I think the main thing I want to say about this is, if you're being offered a licensing contract for using your work to train AI, that I would jump on that.

**It may be that soon courts bring down decisions that this is fair use, and in that case, they can use your work without a license.**

So someone's offering you money for it now, I would say, get into those negotiations and think about getting that locked down.

Specifically with respect to terms, I would say, **know the scope and the type of model that your work is going to be used for**. If it's going to be used for a general purpose that could be used to create competing works, then maybe you want to be paid more than if it's going to be used internally at law firms, for example.

So know what it's going to be used for because that tells you what the value of this license is. I would say, **make sure that your terms don't include derivative works**, or are very specific about what derivative works are included in what you're giving.

You don't want someone using AI to generate works that are directly based off your work, like sequels. Just make sure that that's something that's out of the scope of the license.

It would **exclude anything about sub licenses**, unless you're getting paid for a sub license. Ideally, put a term on it, on the licensing of your work, because this area is developing.

You don't know what's going to happen five years from now, 10 years from now. There may be whole new clauses that you want in there because of how technology has developed.

So I would, personally, **try to avoid a license that's 20 years or the term of your copyright** because you want to be able to develop that license as the technology develops.

I would also **limit how your work is going to appear in outputs**, meaning the percentage of your work that can appear in outputs.

It is unlikely that with a general purpose chat bot where millions or billions of works are used to train that a significant portion of your work would appear in the output because it wouldn't have that large an input on the statistical model that is the AI model.

However, you don't know how big the model is going to be or how many works are going to be used to train it. So I think it could be worthwhile to have a percentage, say, only 2% of my work at a time can appear in any given outbreak.

That's something that they can program as a layer above a generative AI model, so that it sort of screens that before any output gets put out to a user. So that's something that I would have in there as well.

In general, **make sure your contract has remedies, so that if there's a breach, you can cancel the contract, for example.** As opposed to just getting paid out, or whatever remedies you prefer, make sure they're outlined in there.

Ideally, you want **a right to audit what's happening with your work** in the training, so that you can take advantage of those remedies. If you can't see what's going on, then the remedies aren't doing you much good.

Joanna: Those are all really useful things. It's funny because the first thing you said was, get into this because things might change, and we might not get anything if it becomes fair use.

The other thing I thought is **we almost have a burning platform on the creation of synthetic data.** So I've been looking at the OpenAI's o1 model, and some people are saying that one of the reasons it was created is because it can create really good synthetic data to train the o3 models.

Alicia: Oh, wow.

Joanna: I know. I was like, wow—

If they can do really good synthetic data, they don't even need to take our data.

Although I guess the original sin, as such, may still stand. I don't know. I mean, any thoughts on that?

Alicia: Well, I hadn't heard that about the o1 and the o3 model, but **synthetic data, that's something that I'm excited about because I want these models to improve**. I want them to use my work to train the models. Synthetic can write more like me, make my job easier.

I'm excited for more training data. **I hope that more folks in the writing industry get on board and allow their works to be licensed if allowance is needed**. Even if allowance is not needed, I know that folks in the AI industry are feeling the pushback from the writing industry, and it may slow them down.

I don't want them to be slowed down. I want to see this stuff develop.

Joanna: It's interesting that we both want our data in the models. Partly, I also think there's a big change in generative search, in that I mainly use ChatGPT now to do my searches.

So I've been trying to do sort of book discovery, you know, “Give me 10 books that are action adventure thrillers with a female protagonist set in this area.” Then it gives me 10, and I'm like, “Well, what about this book by JF Penn?” I'm like almost trying to train it to think of my books as well.

What do you think about generative search and people using these models for searching?

If we're not there, we just won't be found.

Alicia: If we're not there, they just won't be found. What do you mean by that?

Joanna: Well, as in, the models have access to certain data and certain data that's on the internet. So a lot of the time, it can look at Goodreads, or it can look at Amazon.

I want ChatGPT and Claude to know J.F. Penn, so that if someone is searching for something to read—and a lot of the apps that go on top of things now are powered by these tools—

I want the models to know my writing so that it can promote me or recommend me if people go looking for things like I write.

Alicia: Oh, for sure. I know there are anti-AI folks in the writing industry who don't want AI anywhere near their work. I'm more what you just said. **I want AI to be able to find me. I want AI to be able to write more like me.**

I believe strongly in my own creativity and my ability to create something that is specifically me, and because of that, **I'm not concerned about AI being near my work. I want it to help me.**

I'm not scared about how its use is going to impact my marketability because I know what I've got.

Joanna: I love that, and I actually think the same thing.

I wonder if this is **creative confidence** that comes from—like both of us have been 17 years writing, and previously I was in tech as well. Not quite as deep as you, but I'm confident with tech.

So this kind of creative confidence in our own work and in our own worth that some newer writers might not have, I guess.

Is there anything you can say to newer writers who might not have as much creative confidence as you?

Alicia: This may be strange coming from someone who is very fond of AI, I have a lot of fun with it, but I would say that **maybe building that creative confidence means not using AI for a while.**

It means **discovering who you are as an author**, what sort of things you like to write before bringing in a partner, be it AI or a human writer of another sort. Really find your uniqueness and your identity as a writer before you start adding tools into the mix.

Joanna: That is actually a really good point.

You and I have both already done enough books and written enough that we're confident in our voice that we found before AI.

Then I just wonder if maybe people who are younger in the usage of these tools, or people younger in their journey, or just physically younger, are going to do things differently. Like you and I grew up without iPhones, and we grew up without television.

My mum was the same as your mum. We weren't allowed to watch TV until I was about 12. So I feel like **maybe people will develop their voice differently now**.

Alicia: That's a really good point, and I honestly don't know what that will look like, but I'm excited to see it.

Joanna: Yes, me too. Okay, so let's just circle back on copyright because another sticking point for authors in using these tools is—

They're afraid that they won't have copyright in their finished work if they use AI tools in any way. So where's the line here?

How is it in the US? Because it's different in the UK.

Alicia: Right. In the US, first of all, expression that is generated by artificial intelligence, by a machine, is not copyrightable. However, **your authorship is copyrightable**. Thus, **when you combine your authorship with an AI-generated output, then the part of that that is your creative expression is still copyrightable**.

So what that means is, if there's a combination, if you're using AI as a partner, then whatever expression that you contribute to that final product is copyrightable in the US.

Thus, say someone was to copy a chapter of your book that has you in it, as opposed to telling the AI in a short paragraph to write a chapter, if you've been a part of selecting what goes in that chapter, arranging that chapter, editing words that were initially output by the AI, that's all your expression.

One cannot copy that chapter without copying that expression, which is yours.

There's still copyright eligibility when you've used AI, depending on how you use it.

The Copyright Office has confirmed this. This isn't all theoretical here. The Copyright Office has handled some cases.

[*Note from Jo — here are some excerpts from the US Copyright Office info, and also the UK, as they differ*. Please check your jurisdiction. ]

In the UK, Section 9(3) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 around authorship and ownership of copyright states:

In the case of a literary, dramatic, musical, or artistic work which is computer-generated, the author shall be taken to be the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the creation of the work are undertaken.

In the US, copyright is all about ‘human authorship,’ and in March 2023, the United States Copyright Office issued guidance around the **definition of human authorship in an age of generative AI.** They note:

A human may select or arrange AI-generated material in a sufficiently creative way that ‘the resulting work as a whole constitutes an original work of authorship.’

Importantly, they also say,

This policy does not mean that technological tools cannot be part of the creative process. Authors have long used such tools to create their works or to recast, transform, or adapt their expressive authorship.

For example, a visual artist who uses Adobe Photoshop to edit an image remains the author of the modified image, and a musical artist may use effects such as guitar pedals when creating a sound recording.

In each case, what matters is the extent to which the human had creative control over the work’s expression and ‘actually formed’ the traditional elements of authorship.

[Back to the interview]

There was a semi-well known case with a graphic novel where the author had generated each image using AI, but the copyright office determined that **the arrangement of those images, the selection of those images and arranging them into a story, was copyright protected.**

Thus you can't just take that graphic novel and copy it and sell it, because the author's expression is in there. That's the case with cover art as well as written work.

**Audiobooks with AI narration are a little different because your copyrighted expression is already in the input, and the output is just your words spoken.** So you don't even have to edit that output, it already has your expression in it, and is copyright eligible in the US.

I know in the UK, there are even stronger protections for copyright eligibility of AI-generated works. I think if you direct the creation of it, it's yours.

Joanna: Yes, and I think that's probably why so many people are putting offices here. OpenAI has an office here. I mean, Runway ML, the video generator, they've got an office here, and are partnering with the UK film company. It's essentially like if a machine generates something, it belongs to the person who who directed it.

I was thinking about this, like I like the word director because, increasingly, if you think about a film director—and you know, people will have their favorite movie directors—

Movie directors direct and have a creative vision, but they are not acting every scene. They're not doing all the sets. They're not they're not doing every piece of work in a movie. They are the director.

So I almost wonder if that's the direction we're going is—This much bigger role, where we can do much bigger things, with a lot more help.

Alicia: I think so. I think that there's a lot that we can do with AI to create and expand our creativity besides just writing. We can direct a little movie now ourselves with AI-generated visuals.

However, I also predict, I don't know for sure, that we're going to see copyright eligibility of AI-generated outputs that are unedited in the US. **We're going to see some of that become protectable.** Right now, that's really shaky ground, except with the exception of audiobooks and the like.

It's really shaky ground, say that an AI-generated image as is, would get any kind of copyright protection. I think we may see that depending on how specific your prompt is, that there may be some copyright protection based on the creativity that you put into that.

Joanna: Yes, I think so. As these models get better and better, you can have a much bigger process. So let's come to that, because we're still in these early days, like we're literally like 2001 in terms of the internet.

Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, just shared in a new blog post, Reflections, last week,

“We believe that in 2025, we may see the first AI agents join the workforce and materially change the output of companies.”

I'm like, hell yes, give me some agents to do things. I'll do the stuff I love, and my little AI agents will do the rest. I mean the word ‘agent' is difficult in the publishing industry, but think about little bots or little employees doing your work.

What do you think about AI agents, and how might we use whatever they might be in the future?

Alicia: **I'd personally love a social media agent** because I am no good at keeping up with what's going on my social media accounts. They will go dark for a month and a half, and then I'll remember that I have them and should use them. So I'd love a social media agent.

I kind of have a custom GPT, a prompt set up to help me plan my social media. I've actually tried some products that try to be social media agents that I don't love.

I feel that the writing industry is going to be reluctant to take on these agents. Just based on what I've seen about how protective the writing industry has been—some people in the writing industry—about related industries, like cover artists and voice narrators, how protective they've been wanting writers who want to use AI to hire a cover artist.

They're being very insistent about that, some anti-AI folks. They're being very insistent about hiring a human narrator for your book. I think that we may see that same protectiveness over virtual assistants.

When we're talking about these agents, like a marketing agent or a social media agent, these are things that one might hire a virtual assistant for.

I think we may see some pushback from this same segment of the writing industry that's opposed to using AI-generated cover art.

We're going to see some pushback saying, hey, you should hire a virtual assistant instead.

Joanna: I totally agree, but I think that people are going to use these things anyway. Especially, coming back to creative confidence again, if you are strong in what you want, then actually using these agents.

You mentioned a chain of prompts earlier, and I just have these amazing ideas about how—

I want a chain of agents doing book marketing for me.

There is absolutely no way it would be affordable to have that where humans do it.

Alicia: Absolutely. Yes, **affordability is a huge issue.** If you weren't going to hire someone, I don't understand the objection to passing along to AI to do it for you so that it gets done, as opposed to not getting done.

**I've actually used virtual assistants in the past, and it didn't work so well because I'm so particular**. First of all, I felt like a jerk wanting to tweak things all the time. I don't feel like a jerk when I talk to AI. Then it wasn't saving me time because of the amount of time I was spending tweaking things.

So for me, **having an AI social media agent would be something that I wouldn't hire someone for anyway**. I don't think that's a requirement for using AI, but it expands what we can do, having these agents, having AI in general. I love that.

Joanna: I mean, I think —

Marketing is probably the biggest thing that people want to use these tools for.

I see that one could almost have an agent per book even, who's responsible for making sure that book gets marketed.

I mean, we've got multiple books, and I find myself marketing whichever one that catches my eye, but there's so much of a backlist I just completely ignore. So I'd really love to have things surfaced from my backlist of work. Also things like having an AI—

I've just started using the ChatGPT Tasks. Have you done that?

They only just started it like yesterday, the ChatGPT Tasks.

Alicia: Tasks? Oh, I have not. I noticed it a couple days ago, and instead, I started using Projects. I recently restarted my ChatGPT Pro or Plus account. I sort of switch which AI I want to use at any given time.

So right now I'm digging into the ChatGPT projects, but digging into the Tasks is definitely on my to-do list. I'm hoping I can get it to remind me of stuff that we've generated that I need to do.

Joanna: So for people listening, this is brand new. It's very, very small, as in you ask it to do a task, and it will do something for you at a certain time. So I've just set my ChatGPT so that —

Every morning it will bring me five headlines across the boundaries of archeology, religion, architecture, and genetic engineering.

Basically, I gave it a list of things I'm interested in writing for my fiction, and then it'll bring me five headlines that I can click through to that will just give me ideas. So every morning, I get this really cool message, and then I go and just have a look. It just helps me think about stuff. So that's my first task, that's what I did.

Alicia: I love that. I'm totally going to steal that.

Since I'm into near future science fiction, I make a point to read technology magazines and subscribe to them, but then I have to actively go to those sources and read them. I love the idea of having them come to me like that. So I've just stolen your idea, Jo.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, I wanted to mention it because this is an example of something where it will do some work for you and it helps you, but it's certainly not writing your book. So for people listening, please do steal that idea. That is a ChatGPT task. So we are out of time.

Where can people find you and your books online?

Alicia: As we said at the beginning, I write under the name Alicia Ellis. My website is WriterAlicia.com. My social media handle across the board, across everywhere, is @WriterAlicia.

I use Instagram the most, and BlueSky I'm just getting into. Like I said, I go dark for an extended period of time, and then remember that social media exists. So WriterAlicia.com is the main place you can find me.

Joanna: Great. Well, thanks so much for your time, Alicia. That was amazing.

Alicia: Thank you, Jo. I really appreciate you. This has been fun.
The post Fair Use, Copyright, And Licensing. AI And The Author Business With Alicia Wright first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Building A Long Term Author Business, Dictation, Kickstarter, and Short Story Collections With Kevin J Anderson** Jan 20, 2025
**How can you build a long-term author career with multiple streams of income?** How can you use technology for the grunt work and not the fun part of writing? Kevin J Anderson gives his tips.

In the intro, has TikTok gone dark? [AP]; BookVault is expanding printing to Australia; GPSR, the EU’s new General Product Safety Regulation [Self-Publishing Advice]; CreatedByHumans.ai launches in partnership with The Authors Guild for AI data licensing [Publishing Perspectives]; Simon & Schuster launches audio-first imprint featuring content from self-published authors [Publishers Weekly].

Plus, 7 Steps for How to Write Non-Fiction [Reedsy Live replay]; Publishing predictions for 2025 [Draft2Digital’s Self-Publishing Insiders]; Creative and life challenges with me and Orna Ross [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; *Death Valley – A Thriller*, coming in March!

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Kevin J. Anderson is the multi-award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages. He's also the director of publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor and rock album lyricist, and he's co-written *Dune* books and worked on the recent *Dune* movies and TV show.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Adapting throughout a 40-year author career

The importance of having a Plan B when the industry changes

Incorporating AI into your dictation process — MacWhisper

Utilizing AI to do the grunt work, not the fun work

Publishing timeline restrictions with traditional publishers

Tips for running a Kickstarter in 2025

Finding a market for short stories

Meeting reader expectations and delivering on promises

You can find Kevin at WordFire.com and buy his books direct at WordFireShop.com.

Transcript of Interview with Kevin J. Anderson

Joanna: Kevin J. Anderson is the multi-award-winning and internationally bestselling author of over 190 books across different genres, with over 24 million copies in print across 34 languages.

He's also the director of publishing at Western Colorado University, as well as a publisher at WordFire Press, an editor and rock album lyricist, and he's co-written *Dune* books and worked on the recent *Dune* movies and TV show. So welcome back to the show, Kevin.

Kevin: It's been too long, Joanna. We should do this more often.

Joanna: Oh, yes. Well, you've got so much going on. So we've gone into your background before, so we're going to jump straight in. This, being in the author business a long time, is incredible. Tell us. You just told me about a big milestone.

Kevin: It was the new year, so I was just kind of doing my year round up and everything, and I realized that my very first professional publication was in January 1985, Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction. So that means —

40 years I've been a professional author.

Joanna: Wow.

Kevin: So I look back, and **it was 1995 when I quit my day job**, and I have been a full-time ‘earning all my living by writing stuff' for 30 years. Which, I don't know if I live frugally. No you've met my wife, I don't live frugally. I've just been at it for a long time.

My gosh, it's not like doing the same thing every day, like working on a factory assembly line for 30 years —

This has required just keeping a lookout, and being adaptive, and reinventing myself over and over and over again.

The publishing world does not stay the same, and if you just keep doing the same thing, you'll be left by the wayside.

Joanna: Well, let's just focus on that then.

You mentioned being adaptive and reinventing yourself, but I mean, this really takes a different kind of mindset, I think. I haven't been in it as long as you, but I've seen many authors disappear from the industry, perhaps because they couldn't adapt.

So how do you keep that sort of ever learning process, even when you're already so successful?

Kevin: Well, here's the thing, I am not interested in just one thing or one type of writing.

I've always got like five or six completely unrelated things going at a time.

What happens is that something will be really hot one year, and then nobody wants it the next year, but I've got five other things going, so then we hope something else gets really hot.

If you are only writing steampunk vampire romances, great. They might be super hot this year, but 10 years from now, maybe people don't want to read steampunk vampire romances. I'm just making that up, just as an example.

For instance, let me go back. My big claim to fame, I had my first giant career boost was about 1992. So my first novel was published in 1988, and yes, listeners, I know it sounds like I'm really old, but I'm in good shape.

So 1988, my first novel was published. I published, I think, six or seven novels. This is trad days, there was no option for indie. Then I got a phone call from Lucasfilm saying, “Kevin, would you write *Star Wars* books for us?”

So, suddenly, instead of just being this author who wrote some books that maybe got some reviews, and you got advances in those days, and I maybe earned $4,000 on a book for working on it for six, eight months.

Then suddenly I was writing *Star Wars* **books, and I was a New York Times bestselling author, and I was selling millions of copies**. That was huge for me. So I did all these *Star Wars* books, and through *Star Wars*, I did *Star Wars* comics, and then I learned how to write comics.

That was a huge comics boom, so I was writing monthly comic books and doing all kinds of successful things like that. And because of *Star Wars*, they asked me to write *X Files*. **I wrote all these movie tie-in books.** I wrote the novels for like these science fiction movies that came out.

I was pulling up the drawbridge because people kept throwing books at me as fast as I could write them.

Then around maybe 10 or 11 years later, all of that media tie-in work just dried up.

People might remember, every time a movie came out, you could walk into the grocery store or the airport and there would be a paperback novel of that movie. I mean, that was steady work.

I could pick up the phone saying, “I've got a month free. Give me a movie novelization.” Those things paid like $15,000 or so, and it took three or four weeks’ worth of work, but they just stopped doing that. It wasn't that I gave up on it, or I stopped being good at it or anything, it's just **that entire part of the career dried up**.

Then I'm not sure exactly the years, but like 2005 or 2006, the entire comic book industry imploded. My comic that used to sell maybe 500,000 copies an issue suddenly sold 50,000 copies an issue, just because **people stopped buying comics. That's not anything that's in my control.**

There's a whole lot of reasons why authors screw up their own careers.

I mean, we can talk about that for a while, but —

There are so many things that are out of your control so you have to have a Plan B and a Plan C, and as many plans as you have.

I had all these things going, but I kept spinning other plates up. I would write mysteries and horror because then the science fiction dried up. Or I would write young adults with my wife, and then young adults suddenly became hot. I just kept trying all of the above.

You've noticed, in fact, I've given you a cup of my coffee, which is like five times stronger than what you ever would drink. I am fairly energetic, and I like to work all the time, and I keep going.

You can't put all your eggs in one basket because this industry is a roller coaster, and it just changes all the time.

Now, there's a couple of other things. Well, first we mentioned, I'm the director of the Master's Degree Program in Publishing at Western Colorado University, and I started that about seven years ago. In fact, I had to go back to university myself and get an MFA after I had already published 150 books and had 57 bestsellers.

I had to get the degree because you can't teach creative writing unless you have a degree. So I got a master's degree. Now, in fact, we're taking applications for our seventh cohort now. So seven years, I've had this group of students.

I teach them grad-level publishing, both traditional and indie. I put them through the paces. They do their own books, they edit an anthology, they read the slush pile. I mean, it's all hands-on stuff.

The reason I'm mentioning all that, other than telling everybody to check out the program, but that is a completely different plan. Plan Z. I mean teaching at the university and teaching publishing, actually, it pays a monthly salary, which isn't bad.

I get health benefits. You're in the UK, so you don't know how desperate that is over here in the US that you need to have health insurance. So all of that is a completely different track. Like, okay, I'll spend a lot of time teaching graduate students Just try different things.

It's all writing adjacent.

It's not like I'm working as an automobile mechanic in my day job. **Everything is related to writing or publishing, but there's different aspects of it.**

It's almost like playing Whack-a-Mole. One thing will pop up and be really successful, but then that will go away, and then something else will pop up. You need to make sure you have a lot of moles to pop up in the Whack-a-Mole room.

Joanna: That's fantastic. I mean, it is amazing. Also, yes, I still remember your coffee. I felt fantastic. I haven't been able to replicate that ever since, so I'm going to have to see you in Vegas for more coffee!

Kevin: One more thing I want to throw into that. I was at 20Books and Author Nation, and I was talking to lots of fabulously successful indie authors. They're fabulously successful this year, but they weren't last year.

The attitude that some people get is if they have a really, really good year, it's always going to be that way, and it isn't. So if you have a really, really good year, don't go out and buy a private jet like.

Sock your money away, build a nest egg, pay off your house, or whatever you can do. Build financial stability.

People might remember MC Hammer, the guy who had some really big hits and that didn't have hits, and he spent all of his money. You don't want to be like that. **If you're super successful right now, it doesn't mean you will always be super successful.**

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. I always talk about investing and how I don't expect writing to pay my pension. I'm building a pension to pay my pension, and writing can be extra. [Check out my list of money books here.]

I do want to get into your writing process because, as you mentioned, you're energetic, you're in good shape, and you hike a lot. You dictate as you walk, and you've been on the show before talking about dictation.

Now, I noticed that you have a new edition out of *On Being a Dictator* with two co-writers, which is a book on dictation.

I wondered how your dictation process works now, and how it's changed with AI tools for speech to text.

Kevin: Well, there's one other cautionary tale I want to throw in there. It's probably been 30, maybe even 40 years, that I've just dictated my writing. That's how my process works. I love just walking and dictating.

You know this, Joanna. **It just gets your creative process going, it gets your thoughts going. I love hiking, and I'm outside**. I've got myself so trained that I can't sit there and stare at the screen and be very creative. I have to be out walking and moving around. I go hiking and mountain climbing, and everything's wonderful.

A slight problem happened last August as I was climbing down a mountain pass in the rain on the rocks, and the mud was like Vaseline. I slipped and fell, and I broke my ankle. I had to limp a mile back to my car on this rocky trail on a broken ankle, and I was 12 weeks in a boot and then in an ankle brace.

No tears or anything, it healed just fine, but for those 12 weeks, I was unable to do writing the way I wanted to write. I couldn't really walk. I wasn't supposed to move around very much. So I had to just sit on the back porch with my digital recorder and stare off into the distance and dictate.

Man, that cut my productivity in half. It's not the same just sitting there as it is walking. So I guess my downside was that I was so dependent on being able to write while I walk, that when I suddenly couldn't walk for 12 weeks, I didn't have my own Plan B very well in in action.

I mean, I got my book done. I was a little late on it, but it was not as much fun to sit there and write.

So anyway, to your question, the dictation process hasn't really changed. **I'm an outliner. I go through and I have my 90 chapters outlined,** or whatever, for my big books. I know exactly what happens in chapter one and chapter two. Now, they might change. I might modify the outline, so it's not like I'm completely locked in.

So I'll take my notes for usually two chapters, sometimes three if I go out on a really long hike, and I just get into the zone. I know what's going to happen, and I just tell my story, and I dictate it.

I've gotten it so that if you just play my raw dictation tapes, they're pretty much like an audiobook.

I'm pretty good at being consistent, not stumbling. So that's what I've done all along.

I would take those audio files and I download them, and **I had a typing service.** So I would upload them to my typing service. They loved working with me because the typing service usually works on like legal documents and medical reports and things like that, which are very boring.

They liked my zombie detective chapters, or they liked my epic fantasy chapters. So they would always fight over my stuff, and I'd get it turned around fairly quickly.

So it wasn't causing much problems. I would get their dictation back in Word files in two days maybe. So it's not really a problem, but it's not cheap. It was like a penny a word to get it done. So 100,000 word book was $1,000.

As of last February, one of my other dictators at Superstars Writing Seminar last February, she was so excited and came up saying, “Oh, you've got to try this AI transcription.”

She showed me how to do it and I played with it a little bit. **What I use is called MacWhisper, but there are other transcription things out there.**

*[Note, Kevin said MacWrite, but he meant MacWhisper]*

Suddenly I just feed my audio file into it, and it transcribes it. It takes a little while to teach the damn thing not to rewrite my words—

Joanna: Particularly with fantasy.

Kevin: **All I use it for is to transcribe what I wrote, but I've got my AI trained right now, so that it pops out and it does all the drudgery work**. So I don't have to put the paragraphs and the quote marks. It's kind of mind boggling to me how well it does.

For a while, you know me well, I'm not an anti-AI person, but I don't want to get people put out of their jobs. So I thought, “But my typing service, then I don't use the typing service. Those people depended on me.”

My friend said, “Kevin, if they're a decent typing service, don't you think they're already using this to do the first cut on your transcriptions?” And I went, “Oh, probably.”

Why should I pay somebody else to run the AI thing that I can just run myself?

I come home, I get my dictation things, I load the files up, I go off and eat lunch, and I come back, and they're transcribed.

**It has taken an entire chunk of the pain in the butt, time consuming work that has nothing to do with being creative**. It, to me, has made things much more streamlined.

The book I wrote, probably 10 years ago, called *On Being a Dictator*, because I was really one of the first early adopters of walking and dictating. Everybody's always asking, “Well, how can you do that?” Well, I got tired of answering them, so I wrote it up. Now they have to pay five bucks to get my answer.

Joanna: It is a really useful book. I love the fact that, again, you're being adaptive, and you're changing the bits of the process you don't enjoy, or the drudgery side, or the overly expensive side for what it is, and you've changed that process. Your creative process remains the same.

It's not like the AI has changed your bit of the process, and I think that's really important.

I love that you're adopting these different things.

Kevin: Well, the walking and dictating, that's the fun part. **Why would I want AI to do that for me? That's the fun part.**

Look, I'm one of these writers that really does enjoy writing. I mean, I love going out and doing my chapter and seeing the adventures unfold.

I have a humorous mystery horror series called *Dan Shamble Zombie P. I.* and we just did a Kickstarter for Book 11 on it. It's a bunch of dad jokes. It's like the Naked Gun meets the Addams Family. Those stories are so much fun to write, and I find myself like laughing out loud when I go out dictating those things.

My wife will say, “Kevin, you're writing a *Dan Shamble* book right now because you're always in a good mood.” I love going out and doing that. Why would I want an AI to do all the fun part? AI and computers are supposed to take the grunt work away, not the fun work away.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now, I also wanted to ask you about Kickstarter. So you've done seven, as we record this, Kickstarter projects across various genres.

What part does Kickstarter play in your author business?

What are any of your tips for authors who want to use it in 2025?

Kevin: Well, **it has entirely changed how I do things**. Remember, I came out through trad, and in trad, you have to convince some other publisher that they should publish this project that I want to do.

That would always involve writing proposals up and trying to convince an editor or publisher that, yes, they should take a chance on this project or that project. Then they would pay you in advance, and that's what I would live on while I wrote the book.

Indie is entirely different. **You don't get paid anything until you publish it and you start earning sales and royalties.**

Well, *Dan Shambles* is a good example because I love this series. It was with a traditional publisher, and they did the first four books in the series. Let's just say that we didn't really see eye to eye.

**I do my own marketing**. As you know, I've been doing this for a long time, and I kind of know what works and what doesn't. So this is a fast and funny series. You read one in a couple of sittings, and then you want the next one.

I'm a fast writer, so they bought the first three books, and I said, “Great, let's bring them out like every six months.” Then they went, “Oh, no, we can't do that. It has to be a year and a half apart.”

Well, but this is a fast series, you don't want a year and a half. So we didn't see eye to eye on that.

So then I wrote a standalone story. Like, here's my original, just an introduction to *Dan Shamble*. It's a standalone mystery. So I wrote it, and I was going to publish it myself, upload it before the first novel came out. Like, here's an appetizer. You can read this free story and then get interested in the series.

So I wrote it, I was going to publish that. They got all bent out of shape, “No, no, no, we have to publish it.”

So I'm like, “Alright. I don't know that you know anything about ebooks, but okay.” So I gave them the story, but they, of course, couldn't release the story before the book was published. They released the story a year later, before Book Two was published.

This is audio, so you can hear the sound of me slapping my forehead. Then the book comes out as $15 as a trade paperback. It was $15 for an ebook and $15 for the print book. I said, “That's insane. You put the ebook at like $5, or something like that.”

They said, “Well, we don't want to cut into our print sales.” Well, it's apples and oranges. The ebook readers are going to buy the ebook, and the print book readers are going to buy the print book. So they said that their ebook sales were disappointing. Well, duh.

Joanna: That's because they're so expensive!

Kevin: So anyway, after four books of that—and I am going to answer your question about Kickstarters after all this, I promise. **So they did four books, and I got the rights back.**

I released a short story collection because I'd written a bunch of these other short stories, and that came out, and it did okay, and I reprinted them, and they did okay. But I'm writing *Dune* novels, and I'm doing these really big projects that, frankly, paid a lot.

My re-issues of the *Dan Shamble* books were okay, but they weren't huge hits. I really wanted to continue the series, it's just there was no real incentive to do so.

Then my friend Dean Wesley Smith, who's run a lot of Kickstarters, said, “Kevin, you should run a Kickstarter for it.” I had this attitude of, well, Kickstarters are for whiny authors that don't have any money and they're begging for money. He said, no, you got it completely wrong.

He's right. I had it completely wrong.

It's not for whiny authors begging for money. It's a way for you to connect with your fans, to give your real fans a chance to get like a backstage club.

I mean, my Kickstarter people get their books three, four months before anybody else can get them.

They might get expanded editions, or they might get separate things. So, okay, I decided to try it. If anybody wants a new *Dan Shamble* novel, which I wanted to write, and the fans kept asking for.

So I ran a Kickstarter for another *Dan Shamble* novel, and bam, it funded in like 30 minutes. **It ended up like 15 times what we asked for, and it raised more than triple what the trad publisher was paying**. I went, oh, okay, this is pretty nice.

I had another series that I had done, the first book of it was called *The Dragon Business*. 47 North published it. It was sort of like The Princess Bride meets Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. It was a fun fantasy. It did okay, but not great.

47 North is Amazon's print imprint for science fiction and fantasy. Surprise, surprise, brick and mortar bookstores don't want to carry books that are published by Amazon. So the sales for that weren't as great as they expected.

**I got the rights back, and I wanted to do a sequel to it** because I wanted to build that into a fun fantasy series. So I thought, oh, well, why don't we see if the Kickstarter people want a sequel to that?

Again, I ran a Kickstarter for it, and again, more than triple what the trad publisher was paying. Remember, I'm already an indie author and an indie publisher. So I know how to publish a book. It's not like this is a learning experience for me.

Joanna: Just on that, just to bring you back to Kickstarter for newer authors. I mean, obviously you're talking about established series, so people might think, well, there's already readers for that. What is different about Kickstarter?

Are there things that newer authors who don't have such an extensive career could use it for?

Kevin: Well, actually, it's almost the opposite answer, because **this is really designed for people who do have a platform, who do have a fan base, because you can tap into them.**

If you're brand new and don't have followers, **you have to find some way to get people interested in your project.**

Maybe it's connected to a very interesting subject. In fact, one of my grad students right now is a recovering alcoholic, and she's got a whole bunch of self-help books on how to overcome addiction.

She's not famous. Nobody really knows who she is, but she's plugged into this network of people who are trying to help one another through situations like this. So she's able to get attention for that particular subject.

I'm going to run a Kickstarter this spring with my grad students because the poetry concentration director also runs this big Writers Workshop in Montana, I think, which is for indigenous writers, and it's taught by all indigenous instructors.

There are a lot of foundations for the arts supporting them, but they never have enough money to run the workshop. So we're going to run a Kickstarter for them, and we will be tapping into a lot of people to say help support this indigenous workshop.

I haven't run it yet, so we don't know if it's successful, but I'm pretty confident it's going to be. My students are going to help promote it. Now, they're not famous, but when you have this good cause that you're promoting it for, then you can get attention that way.

If you're just, “I'm Bill, brand new indie author. Here's my short story collection. Here's my Kickstarter,” you may be starting too soon for that.

The steps of doing a successful Kickstarter, you have to have a platform and an outreach and some reason for people to want to do it.

Also, **you need to be able to convince your backers that you will actually deliver on what you promise**.

I've supported probably 50 Kickstarter campaigns, and probably 20 of them I never got the stuff I paid for because they just don't know how to produce it.

So don't let that happen to you. **Make sure you know what you're doing.**

At 20Books, last year or the year before, I was talking to the head of publishing at Kickstarter. She was kind of rolling her eyes and shaking her head, saying that they've had people that ran campaigns for a fantasy book, and the campaign was successful.

Then the person wrote her and said, “Okay, my campaign was successful. Now, how do I publish a book?”

Joanna: Well, we generally say now—

You should have written your book before you do a campaign.

That's the advice, I think.

Kevin: I mean, even me, everybody knows that I'm going to be reliable. I've written 190 books. If I say I'm going to write one, I'm going to do it. But I feel that you want to deliver your stuff fairly soon, while people remember that they're still waiting for it.

How many people are really still waiting for the next Game of Thrones book? I've given up on that.

Also, so **I write my book before—either completely done, or at least the draft is done and I'm editing it—before I run the campaign**. I want to be able to turn it over and just deliver the books within a month or two. I always under promise and over deliver.

So right now, I've got the *Dan Shamble* campaign that ended in the first week of November. I promised them books by March, we are sending them out this week because I got it done faster.

There are times where there are delays, especially if you're doing, say, bespoke editions that have to be shipped from China or something. Those are things you can't count on. I always really want to have everything done and ready.

The other thing is —

I plan maybe two, possibly three Kickstarter campaigns a year.

I don't want to go to my backers and say, “Hey, support my next one,” if I haven't delivered the previous stuff yet. You want to be reliable. Make sure you're not doing it too soon. There are pieces you need to put in place.

Here's an example. So I'm writing *Dune* books and things. Those go to the trad publisher because they have a much bigger footprint in brick and mortar stores and things. Kickstarter lets me do the projects that are my passion projects, really big things that I want to do that might not fit with trad publishing.

My biggest campaign ever was last year. I've written a lot of short stories over my career, and I thought, well, I just want to collect my short stories.

In fact, I ended up with a whole lot of short stories, like 150 of them or so.

I even found the very first thing that I wrote when I was eight years old. I typed it on my dad's typewriter. It was this little three-page story about a mad scientist making monsters. I found that one, and so I included that in there.

So that meant that by putting the story when I was eight years old, I could do this short story collection that covered 50 years of my career. For each one of those stories, I wrote a little intro of, here's how I wrote this one, or here's how I wrote that one.

So it was three volumes of science fiction, two volumes of fantasy, two volumes of horror/dark fantasy. 750,000 words, all told.

Joanna: Wow.

Kevin: This is a huge job just putting all these stories together. So here's the point, and yes, I do have one, and I eventually get around to it. So I put all these things together, and I went to my New York literary agent. I knew the answer, I just wanted to do it.

So I went to him, and this is the guy who sold million dollar contracts for me, and I said, “I'm going to do a seven volume collection of my reprint short stories, and I want to do them all in hardcover. Who could you sell that to?”

It was like silence on the phone. He said, “Well, nobody. Nobody would want that.

“Nobody publishes short story collections. Nobody buys them. Nobody wants them.” So I said, “Okay, thanks.” I ran a Kickstarter, and we did $80,000.

So, hello, my fans do want it. With the Kickstarter, it's between creator and the reader. There aren't 25 other middlemen between it. There aren't all these other people telling you, no, you can't do it. So it's just a direct me and the readers.

I guess the point of that was, this was a project I wanted to do. Without Kickstarter, I could never, ever have done it.

I mean, it took a lot of time and a lot of work, and it was expensive to do those books. So if I didn't have the money from Kickstarter, I could not have seen that project through.

Joanna: Well, I did want to ask you about short stories. Doing short story collections was one of my reasons that I wanted you to come back on the show.

In the indie space, people think, well, why would I bother writing short stories?

I mean, there are obviously still short story markets, and lots of them, if you focus on that. But many indie authors are like, why would I bother? So, thoughts on short stories?

Kevin: Getting back to the long career retrospective. **When I started out, every author's career path was that you wrote a bunch of short stories, you published them in the numerous magazines**, and you built up a little bit of a following, and then you graduated to writing novels. **Short stories were your training ground.**

That's not the case anymore because there just really aren't nearly as many short story markets, and even then, you might not get it published.

The big advantage indies have is —

If you write a short story featuring your series character, well, then you use that as a reader magnet.

You put it in your newsletter, or you use it as, “Get a free story when you sign up for my mailing list,” or something like that.

So short stories have a very good purpose right now, as you use them as like carrots to get people to check out your series. Or you can use it to maybe test out a new character if you want to. Always, short stories are a great way to experiment as a writer.

I mean, it takes me a couple of days to do a short story. So if you think, well, maybe I should try dark fantasy and see how it works. Well, write a short story and see if it works, rather than writing a novel, which is going to take you however long it takes you to write a novel. So it's a training ground, and that's very good to do.

Today, I would **look at short stories as an adjunct or as supplementary things, rather than your main focus.** They're kind of like the garnish on a plate instead of the steak.

There are **many ways to use them**. You can swap short stories. With other writers that have newsletters, you give them a story and they give you a story, so then you can get their readers to read your character and maybe pick up your series. That's where I would do it.

*The Kevin J. Anderson Short Fiction Library*, that came from people who were already interested in my stuff. If you're brand new and you don't have a big following already, I'm not exactly sure that that would be my main focus, doing an original story collection.

Joanna: I will come back on that. One of the reasons I'm thinking of doing this on Kickstarter is because I have bought so many on Kickstarter.

I buy a lot of short story collections from people, I don't know who they are, because I like reading short story collections.

So it's one of those things that when you find a tiny niche of people who are interested in a certain type of product, then there are people there. So that's actually why I was thinking of even doing one on Kickstarter, because I am part of that audience. So I guess it's a different angle.

Kevin: But you do have a following, and you do have a platform.

Joanna: That's true.

Kevin: Now for you, though, one of the interesting enticements might be to do a short story collection paired with one of your writing books. Like my grad students, we assign them your *Your Author Business Plan* book, and they read it every spring and build their business plan based on your book.

So you might want to do, here's my story collection and here's my—if you have a new book on writing advice or something.

Joanna: Or writing short stories. Yes, absolutely.

Kevin: If you have one on writing short stories, that would be an ideal pairing. Like, here's my short story collection and here's my book on how to write short stories. That's genius. That would work. Brilliant.

Joanna: I think that's what we think around these Kickstarter projects, is it's not like on Amazon where if you pair something and your algorithm goes horribly wrong because those readers don't normally buy that kind of thing. Whereas—

With Kickstarter campaigns, you can put all these things in and it doesn't mess up some algorithm somewhere.

Kevin: Exactly. So, here's the other thing. With doing a Kickstarter and raising money that way, that is completely separate from your indie publishing.

So when I get a *Dan Shamble* Kickstarter, and those books go out—again, they're going out to all my Kickstarter backers in the next week or two—the official release of this book to the public is like April.

So **then we put up preorders on Amazon, and then everybody else buys them**.

The Kickstarter effectively gave me my book advance, like I used to get from trad publishers, and then the sales go on sale to the general public because most people don't buy their books through Kickstarter.

It's a special audience.

So most people are going to wait for it to come out on Amazon. So then you basically start all over from scratch. But hey, I just got a whole bunch of extra money up front to do this project. I am clearly a convert, as you can tell.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now, we're almost out of time, but I want to come back to something you said earlier.

You said, “How do authors screw up their own careers?” Then you said, “Well, we could talk about that if you'd like.” So I was thinking that, yes, I would like to talk about that.

How might authors screw up their careers? Or, I guess, how can they avoid that?

Kevin: Well, my biggest piece of advice is, **don't be an asshole**. Well, first off, I have a policy of **I do not make political postings on any of my social media.** That is a great way to get rid of half of your readers is to start spouting something.

I wasn't joking, don't be an asshole. **Authors talk. Reader's talk. If you're like this total jerk, people are like, I like the books, but I can't stand the person, so I'm not going to buy anymore. So just don't do that.**

**Deliver your stuff when you say you're gonna deliver it.**

If you promised everybody your next book is coming out in April, well, don't make it five years later. I mean, obviously there are extenuating circumstances, you can have a medical issues or some other things.

Prove to be reliable and deliver what you say you're going to deliver.

I like networking, and networking works the opposite way too. If you screw somebody over, everybody else is going to know about it.

In the indie author community, just look at all the people who come to Superstars, or to Author Nation, or 20Books, or these various things. **People will know if you stop being ethical and reliable.**

I have a policy of I just don't ever talk smack about other authors. I was on a panel once where it was about bestselling books or something, and everybody was just bitching and whining about the *Twilight* books or about Hugh Howey's books. They didn't like them, or Dan Brown's.

I just went, “Guys, tens of millions of people bought them, so there was something done right. Learn from it rather than complain about it.” I think we're all colleagues. Like, Joanna, you're successful. It doesn't make me any less successful.

I like to read books too. So just because somebody's selling books, doesn't cost me anything. I believe in the rising tide lifts all boats. **I like being supportive and helpful, and I do my best not to be an asshole and help other people**. It's karma points. It comes back at you.

It also works the opposite way. If you're this very negative person, and you constantly screw things up, you're alienating your readers, you're alienating your fans, you're being a jerk on social media, well, that's a great career suicide.

Just look at some of the actors who have had careers that have instantly crashed and burned because of some stupid thing they did. So don't do the stupid thing.

Joanna: Well, that's really interesting. So you've basically gone for the personality as opposed to the craft, which I think is really interesting. I was kind of expecting you to say they stop writing or they stop marketing, or something like that.

Kevin: Well, obviously if you stop writing. If you do a series—and I joked earlier about Game of Thrones—I mean, there's a contract there. If you started reading this book, you invested lots of time in this series, and I don't know what it is now, 10 years, 12 years since the last one. I'm not waiting for it anymore.

I loved those books. I'm not waiting for it anymore. If you do a series and you're producing them regularly, and you just stop, the reader's attention span is not long because there are so many other things to read. Don't expect them to be like pining by the telephone, waiting for somebody to ask you out on a date.

Readers will move on if you're not producing things.

Now, again, we get back to the longevity of a career. It is exhausting to write lots of books a year, and most people can't keep doing that for 20 years or 30 years.

That's one of the reasons, especially indie authors, where readers expect you to write several books a year. Some indie authors I know are writing a book a month. I couldn't do that for any long period. Well, I couldn't do that probably for a single year.

You start building expectations, and when you fail to meet those expectations, they will leave you very quickly. That's why you should have Plan Bs.

If you really, really can't stand writing your steampunk vampire romance series after book number 29, well, make sure that you have some other series you're starting and building up.

Well, Hugh Howey's got several series that are going. Michael Anderle has all kinds of series, and Craig Martelle has all kinds of series. You don't just put all your eggs in one basket. You need to have Plan B and Plan C, to circle around to what I started with.

Joanna: Well, that is fantastic.

Where can authors find you, and your books, and everything you do online?

Kevin: My website is WordFire.com. My store WordFireShop.com. After COVID, I realized I needed to sell books direct, and that's doing very well for me. Facebook, just look up my name, Kevin J. Anderson. I've got a couple of different pages, and you'll find it.

Also on WordFire.com, there's a whole section about the graduate program in publishing, if anybody's interested in becoming a Master of Publishing with the piece of paper to prove it.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Kevin. That was great.

Kevin: Thanks, Joanna. I always love talking to you.
The post Building A Long Term Author Business, Dictation, Kickstarter, and Short Story Collections With Kevin J Anderson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Balancing Creativity With Building A Business, And Author Nation With Joe Solari** Jan 13, 2025
**How can you balance creativity with business in order to have a profitable, long-term author career?** What were the successes and challenges of the Author Nation conference? Joe Solari shares his perspective.

In the intro, the money episode [Ink In Your Veins]; WISE for multi-currency banking; creative planning tips for 2025 [Self~Publishing Advice]; Surprising Trends Authors Can’t Ignore in 2025 [Novel Marketing Podcast]. Plus, an update on *Death Valley, A Thriller*, and reflections on seeing live theatre vs online & stream/subscription models.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing director of Author Nation, the biggest conference for indie authors in the world.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Maintaining sustainable balance between writing and marketing

Creating an author business that fulfills you

Utilizing your time effectively in 2025

Navigating social media and business goals

Learning to say no and focusing on what you really want

Author Nation 2024 Highlights

The logisitics of running an author conference

Catering to different experience levels at an author conference

You can find Joe at JoeSolari.com and AuthorNation.live.

Transcript of Interview with Joe Solari

Joanna: Joe Solari helps authors build great businesses through books, courses, and podcasting, as well as strategy and operations consulting. He's also the managing director of Author Nation, the biggest conference for indie authors in the world. So welcome back to the show, Joe.

Joe: Thanks for having me on again. I really enjoy the time we get to spend together. It seems like we talk more on the show than we do at events that we meet each other at.

Joanna: Absolutely. Well, we're often both very busy. You've been on the show a couple of times before—and I'll link to those in the show notes—so we're just going to jump in today.

Now, as we head into 2025, authors are assessing their priorities for the year. Now, in your experience helping authors build profitable businesses—

How can we balance writing and marketing so that both are sustainable?

Joe: That's such an awesome question. I think a lot of folks that are used to hearing me on your podcast or other podcasts are going to think that I'm going to go right into talking about profitability or budgeting, but I'm going to actually get a little different approach for you on this whole thing.

Let me give you some context first, and that is—

Where do you have your best ideas?

Joanna: Personally, a lot of my ideas come from traveling and places, in particular. So I have to go and visit things and input in order to have ideas.

Joe: Yes, and that doesn't surprise me. I've asked the question of a lot of creatives, and what I've discovered in asking that question is there tends to be two different things that come up. Like, it's when I do something like go on walks. Or a lot of times it's things like driving or a shower.

Why that is, there's science behind this, and it's **you have two distinct networks in your brain that you need to use for creativity.**

One is the default mode network. That's what your body goes into when you daydream. It's when you were sitting in class and getting bored by your teacher, and it would make you go off and think into your imaginary world. That's a natural place for you to go.

The other system is your executive functioning system, which is what helps you focus and get words out and hit deadlines.

They're two distinct systems that sometimes will overlap, like in a venn diagram. When that happens, that's your flow state where you feel like the ideas are coming and you're getting them down on paper.

The interesting thing about that is that it’s completely counter to what you're told to do as an entrepreneur and hustle culture. You're just supposed to produce. You're supposed to produce words. You're supposed to sit in a chair. You're supposed to produce.

So what you do is, when you are only focused on that one side, the executive function side, you detach yourself and you distance yourself from your creative well.

So my answer to your question is that — I suggest that authors start to build into their process in 2025 more time to tap into that default mode network and **spend time thinking about how they can spend some real quality time and —**

Protect that creative space, because that's where all your good ideas come from.

When you feel like you're being blocked, it's because you're disconnecting yourself from that default mode network. So it's sound business advice, in the sense of there's this process that's core to your business that we need to get more efficient and think about how we can improve its performance.

Joanna: I really like that, and I feel like this is something I've always done is that I **separate my time into creative time and business and marketing time.** I find like I can't do both in the same time period.

When I had a day job, first thing in the morning—you know, I'm a morning person—so I'd write before going to work. Then in the evening, I could do business and marketing. This podcast was started after my work, back in the day.

So perhaps that fits into what you're saying is that **you have to schedule different types of time, some for input and creativity** and thinking and not doing much sometimes. Then other time for business and marketing.

I feel like maybe authors sometimes try to do everything all at once, and maybe that's why it doesn't work.

Joe: Absolutely, you're really getting into the core of this.

There are different systems, and they have to be honored in different ways, and you need them both. We're on The Creative Penn show, come on, we have got to talk about creativity. It's like, we forget that's the source of the product.

We get very focused on, oh, it's a business. You have this product you have to put out. You have these customers you need to serve. All that stuff, it has to be done, but what you asked was —

How do we make this sustainable process between the marketing and the writing?

What I'm getting at is there's some things that we can do to make that process easier. What it means is understanding that this isn't up and to the right like a business chart of sales. It's an undulating cycle.

Let me give you another context for this. If we look at creativity as a profession, you have this natural talent as a creator. We've identified that you've got this active imagination, and you love to spend time in the story world, and it's fulfilling to you. That's no different than if we noticed some natural athletic talent.

So what would we do around that if we saw that you were a really good tennis player? Well, we would work on your endurance and your speed. We would work on racket skills. We would work on all these different things to supplement that natural talent.

One of the big things we would also do for an athlete is we would have a recovery cycle.

We wouldn't just say after you finished winning Wimbledon to go play the French Open. We'd put you in an ice bath, we'd stretch you out, we'd go into some kind of a process that would get you to be ready for the next time you play.

I think that goes, again, back to that first question of yours, what could you do to make 2025 better? It's like, how do you build a recovery process?

How do you give yourself that space to let the well refill?

There's a lot of things right now in the world that are really, really detrimental to you refilling the well. We're talking about this really powerful default mode network and that time where you just need to be bored to let it kick in.

What do we do? Well, we get on social media, and we doom scroll, and we do a bunch of stuff to fill in that time that really deteriorates. It does two things, right.

You lose that time that you need, and **it deteriorates your capacity because you're doing really horrible things to your neuro-chemical system with these dopamine hits from scrolling**.

I've been doing this research, and it's kind of scary to see what could potentially happen with this. It's destroying all this creative capacity out there that we need to have new ideas come up, whether it's a new story or the cure for some disease.

Joanna: Yes, it is tough. In fact, one of the things I do is try to be active in my open time. So you said there be bored, and being bored is really hard, as you say. So I go for a walk often, and **going for a walk means I can't look at my phone while I'm out walking. I'm looking at nature.**

You mentioned the shower. We cannot stay in the shower for hours at a time, but I can walk for hours at a time. Most people, wherever they are, there should be somewhere you can go and walk.

Although, perhaps not at a gym. I don't know, a gym is also very stimulating in terms of the screens. Particularly in your American gyms, there are so many screens everywhere.

This is also really hard for people, and I know there will be people saying, “but social media is how I”—not me particularly—”but how I might be selling books.”

So this is the hard part, right? This is what it comes down to. I love what you're saying, but then people are like—

“But I have to be on social media because how else do I meet my business goals?”

So let's talk about that, about the business side as well.

Joe: So again, you have to put it into context. So let's use this perfect example of a bunch of folks out there that are listening that are seeing really amazing success with their strategies on TikTok. So they're going to say what you just said, “I have to be on this platform.”

It's like, yes, you do, but **how are you on the platform? Are you on this platform to develop meaningful relationships with your audience?** Because also this thing is about, how do you make your business fulfill you?

If it's just about hitting business goals, that gets you on that hedonic treadmill where you always have to be hitting goals to feel like something's happening. Versus like, no, I'm really trying to help an audience connect with work that's meaningful to me and will be meaningful to them.

So in that process, **I need to carve out some specific time to be on TikTok, and I need to do these specific things on TikTok.** That's all executive functioning kind of stuff.

Now, they may be like, “Well, I need to come up with some creative stuff for TikTok.” Well, maybe you need to spend some time in that default network space to think of those ideas.

Just sitting for an hour and a half scrolling on TikTok instead of being on a walk or doing something that gets you into that space, is going to hurt your business, not help your business. So I think that —

You have to really think through those compartments of social media and where it makes sense.

Then you get into the whole other side of how social media can make us get into comparison and all kinds of other horrible things. We could talk about that for hours.

Joanna: Yes, and it's interesting because we also do have to make decisions about time. You mentioned time, and we only have limited time. You and I are older now, and time gets more and more limited, unfortunately.

When TikTok blew up, and I've looked at it several times, and every time I go, **“I choose not to do this because my time doing other things is more valuable.**” Like I'm doing calisthenics and practicing doing handstands. At this point in my life, practicing doing handstands is more important than TikTok!

Other people make a different decision, but I think it's very interesting. So this is one thing is we have limited time, and we have to make a choice over the time. Also, we do have to schedule downtime.

What are some of the mistakes that you see authors making?

Again, back on the profitable or for business, but also the fulfillment that you mentioned?

Joe: So I think that—and again, this plays off of what you just said—is **we think that we have to do it all.**

Whatever comes into our feed or starts to trend with whatever place where we're getting information, it's like, “Oh, I have to do this thing now. Like, I have to do TikTok. It's obvious that I've got to do TikTok because I see these people that are making all this money at this.”

To your point, you chose to do something different. I think this is —

One of the hardest things in any business is saying no.

The reality is, if you look at something like venture capital or private equity, they're in the business of saying no.

They have a process that they evaluate what they're going to invest in and what they're going to do because they know they have a finite amount of time and capital. If they don't **say no to 99% of the things that come over the transom** to them, they're just going to run out of money and have bad investments.

So they have to have a system where they **evaluate what is the best use of time and money**. The reality is that for authors, that time component is the real finite resource.

There's so many authors that have figured out how to get a business ramped up and make money with no money. Like this is the land of bootstrapping, right? Whereas a lot of other businesses, you can't even get into the business unless you have capital.

So here's one where people have figured out ways to do that, but if you're not looking at the best use of your time. What we talked about earlier is now we're saying you need to think about a chunk of that time in a different space that isn't necessarily doing businessy stuff. That means you have less time, right?

How do we best use that time in 2025?

I think that you're better to **pick one or two things and really invest and do them well than try to do 10 things halfheartedly**.

Joanna: So how do people pick one or two things?

I remember this, back in 2009 when I started this podcast, I'd never done a podcast before. It was very, very new, actually, in podcasting era. I was like, I'm just going to try this. At the same time, I started a YouTube channel, again, quite early on in that time.

Although I still have a YouTube channel, it didn't become the thing that I enjoyed, or that actually is part of a profitable part of my business, but I didn't know that before I started.

So if people listening, they're like, okay, well, should I try TikTok? Or should I do Facebook ads? Or should I use a subscription service? How do they know, or—

How do authors pick the one or two things that might work for them and might help make their author business profitable?

Joe: Again, this is where you have to kind of step back and ask yourself these questions. **What is my natural curiosity leading me to? When do I feel that it's being fulfilled?** So we can just use your examples.

Of course, you're going to want to try these things as they come up. You're going to see, oh, this is a new thing, but what is it that I want to get out of it? So from a personal standpoint, am I feeling energy come to me?

Am I getting something out of it? Or is it feeling like it's draining me? You have to honor that.

Number two is, how does it align with your business practices? When you step into something like TikTok, there's the how-to. There's courses. There's all kinds of people that have talked on shows like mine about how to do this, but is that the audience you're looking for. Is that the kind of interaction you want to have with your audience?

Using you as an example, you've been very deliberate and said no in instances that probably have pissed some people off. It's because you understand that in the long run, it's not going to work out well for anybody because you're not going to be getting fulfilled. Is that a fair statement?

Joanna: Oh, yes, but I also annoy myself sometimes. I'm like, why can't I do video? As you say, curiosity, and also what drains you. Video drains me, and it always has. Some people say, oh, it's because you're getting older. I'm like, no, it always, always has.

Also, I don't listen to music. I don't do noise. I like silence. I like quiet. I think, as you say—

We have to tap into these things and learn to say no, otherwise you can burn out.

Joe: I think when we go back to thinking about where your creative well gets filled is that them going to a coffee shop is a place of creativity. I go there and I'm eavesdropping on people's conversations, and thinking about the coffee, like it's not a place where I can do that.

So part of this idea is for you, as a listener on the show, thinking about these ideas, what is it for you? Not, what is the community saying?

There's no shortage of ideas on ways to make money as an author or to monetize your creativity, and there'll be more coming.

There's going to be a bazillion new ideas that come with innovation, you're not going to be able to do them all.

You need to be really deliberate and pick the ones that do two things, in my view, and that is to connect you with the audience that you want to connect with. Because, again, if this is about making money, you need to have people that see that your creative content is worth more than the cold, hard cash in their wallet.

Then two, **it fulfills you, and fulfills you in the right way**.

Okay, what do I mean by that? Not that it makes you get your ego pumped up or gives you a bunch of status in fake things like rank, but that it fulfills you by like, “I am now truly in touch with my meaning.”

It helps you understand why you're on this planet. This helps you to feel like a full human being. **That's the part that I think is getting lost in this whole hustle culture**, is that you're going to feel good when you hit this particular monumental thing like making seven figures. No, you won't. You won't.

I know this because I've worked with so many people that have done that, and they come to me and they're like, “I've worked harder. I'm more burnt out. I have the mantle. I won the trophy. I sold a million dollars’ worth of books this year. But you know what? I can't keep this up.”

What ends up happening is —

The ones that are successful going forward find themselves in a place where they end up becoming most likely more profitable, selling less books, but doing something they love.

They find that sweet spot because they've changed their focus.

They've gotten to be like, “Hey, wait a minute. If I do some things with my business, tune some things up here, I can make more money than I've ever made before. I can feel good and I can tap into things that I was missing out.”

“I can connect with my family more. I can travel more. I can feel that I can leave certain parts of my business and not think that it's all going to crash into a heap.”

Joanna: Yes, exactly. That's why we were emphasizing ‘profitable.' I know you talk about this a lot because a lot of the numbers that you can see, screenshots on various social media or whatever, are the above-the-line figures. They're not necessarily the profit figures. They're the income or the revenue, but not the profit.

So that's where we like to focus. Profitable life, I think in general, just having a happier life.

I want us to get into Author Nation now. 2024 was the first year, and I was there. It was fantastic. I bought my ticket for 2025 before I even left Vegas. So I was one of those that as you were talking about it, I went on and bought it. Let's just, first of all, from your perspective—

What went well about the Author Nation conference?

From, I guess, you and from Suze and the team, but also from feedback that you got.

Joe: Oh, well, I don't even know where to start. There's so much. I think the funny thing was, so many people were like, “Oh, you have to be really stressed out. There's got to be a lot of stuff going on.” The feeling was more like being the host of a party or your wedding.

Like you have this big event that you've planned, you want to make sure everyone's having a good time, but it wasn't like there were fires to really put out.

**We had been working on this thing for over a year. We have a team that really did an amazing job at putting together the programming and building a system** like that. Like people don't understand this is where my creativity really was able to come out and take a business and work on it.

The show as a whole was surprising to people at the things that we focused in on. Like, we spent a lot of time with the space. **We made sure that the space was open and inviting.** We had rented a bunch of furniture, couches and stuff, so people had these conversation pits to hang out in.

That came out of observing other shows that tended to, in my view, make authors feel anxious and confined and claustrophobic. So we didn't want that to be the case.

We wanted to make sure that there was different facets for authors. So **the folks that were really there to kind of fill their well with information, we had a lot of great sessions.** Yours was a great example of that.

We also know that there's a lot of people that they never go into those sessions. **They just need a place to hang out, and do deals, and talk, and network.** So we had different spaces for that. We had, like I said, these **conversation pits.** We also had a bunch of tables around where people could sit and work together.

All of that stuff was designed to hit the needs that we kept hearing people say when we asked them about what they want out of a show. Now, the feedback we've gotten, that's the other thing—**we built a system so we were able to collect reviews off of every single session and about the overall show.**

So we ended up with 866 reviews of sessions. We reviewed on two things: were the objectives clear and where the objectives met? We had, on the first one, it was like a 4.6 out of 5, and the objectives met was like a 4.55.

So we had a really, really good feedback system, and we had good feedback. The great thing was, is we then—like, I'm sure you were sent your reviews.

Joanna: Yes, that was great. Yes, really good.

Joe: So it's funny, when we did that, there was some people that, again, we can all be self-conscious. It's like, no, those aren't bad reviews. You got to filter out some of this stuff.

Joanna: Yes, for sure. Actually, this would be a tip for people if they are coming, if you're using that app again, I didn't make the most of that app until towards the end of the week. Then I realized that there were slides on there from people's talks.

If you missed a talk, you could go get the slides, and you could sync it with your laptop —

and all of that kind of thing, as well as doing the ratings. So, yes, that app, I think next time I'll be using that. Are you going to use that same app again?

Joe: Yes, we're going to use that again. I actually had somebody come up at the show that's a programmer, and he talked about programming something specific for us. So we're going to look at that as a potential, but the idea is having something like that.

We were really happy with the tool we used. The only thing we were hoping to add into that was **better group communication**, so a way for authors that are there to have a single platform to network between themselves and message each other. So that's the one thing that we're trying to figure out.

All those pieces, we spent a lot of time on. If you noticed, we have a numbering system that tells you what room something is in, what day it is, what session during the day.

That all feeds back into our system because this year what we're really working on is all the stuff that was kind of manual processes that we hand carried through the building. It's like **we're automating all that stuff. We're using agents and tools that are now available to us.**

So you'll see this, for folks that are submitting to speak, that starts you in a process that will eventually feed all the information into the contract we send you. Then that'll push information into our system so that our folks don't have to be typing stuff in.

Joanna: That is good. I actually did submit mine—because I knew we were talking—I was like, right, I'm going to submit my talk. So **I did actually go through that process, and I noticed it was very organized**, and there were all the things I could put in. So that was that was super useful.

On that, I guess you mentioned there the automations and agents and AI. There was a lot of AI sessions at Author Nation 2024. There was also a lot on direct sales. There was lots on Kickstarter and people selling on Shopify. These are some big trends that are coming or are here.

What are your thoughts on some of these big, overarching trends, like AI and direct sales?

Will you continue to cover them in the show in 2025?

Joe: I think **we probably had the single most comprehensive track on AI that anyone's ever put together in the creative community**, while at the same time having a **massive amount of information on how to be an artisan.**

So the idea for us isn't to be one thing to everyone, other than **the place you come to get exposed to everything**.

The idea that there's one way to do this is ludicrous. This kind of gets to some of the stuff you and I have talked about—**how we do things today is very different than how we've done things in the past.**

As a human being, if you're going to be an author for 30 years, you're going to change.

You're going to make decisions. Hopefully, you're getting to a point where you're saying there's some stuff I'm not going to do.

I think one of the best examples of all of bringing that change is we had Johnny Truant at the show, one of the co-authors of *Write. Publish. Repeat.*

Here is like the OG of like fast publishing doing a session on being an artisan and how his focus is now on creating meaningful relationships around his work with a small, intimate group of fans that can support him.

There's two parts of that. One is like, how does he do that? But also that bigger message of like, yes, I've matured and changed what I think is important for me to be fulfilled. So that's what we want the show to be about.

The hard part can be is if you're newer and you come in, it's like, oh my god, there's too much stuff on the buffet. That's **our responsibility to try to help people manage and absorb this content.**

Joanna: Yes, and on that, you have tracks, don't you, for people who haven't written a book yet. For different genres, for people like me who want the much more advanced content, but—

There's stuff for people who haven't even written a book yet, as well.

Joe: Yes, it's so that if you've never written a book, you can come.

Frankly, if you haven't written a book, you're in that part of your publishing career, there isn't a better thing to do. Why is that? Well, there's more people on the planet in that one room for that five days that have done what you want to do than anywhere else.

So why not be there and ask them questions, and learn from them, and see what is their way of doing it. Because in the beginning, you just need to get that book out. Then you can start understanding some deeper things about what your business will look like.

You and I are a long way away from that first published book, but that was a massive endeavor. **We forget about that sometimes of what a massive endeavor that first book is.**

So once that does happen, then it's like, oh, well, that wasn't that bad. I can do that again. Now, how do I want to do that? How do I want to connect with people? There's so many different ways now, that's the other thing. It used to be, oh, well, you just have to get on Amazon.

Well, no, maybe for you, the best thing because of your writing style and the way you work is that you're building your business on Kickstarter. So we'll have people there, like we have the Kickstarter people, right?

Joanna: Yes, Oriana.

Joe: What we're doing is, now that we've gotten the first one under our belt, we're going out to folks. I had a conversation with Oriana just before the New Year for next year. Like, okay, what if in our online community, you come in and coach a cohort of people to do Kickstarters?

So instead of having a session at Author Nation that is educational, “hey, you should do Kickstarters,” you have a session where you meet with those people and talk about what worked and didn't work in those Kickstarters that you ran over the year.

That's a whole different way that we use the idea of community and a week-long show to get the support mechanism that people really need.

Sure, we can run a great show and take out our firehose and just drowned you in ideas, but —

What happens afterwards to help you implement those ideas?

The first part is what we're talking about, picking the ones to implement.

Joanna: Very important.

Joe: **Sitting in front of a notebook with 60 great ideas can be paralyzing**. So how do we get you to the ones that are going to have the—and it's something we talked about at the show—high impact, low effort.

Joanna: Yes, and I think —

One of my tips for people is to plan in advance.

So even though it's not up there yet, towards November the schedule will be around. So people can kind of see, all right, well, what do I really want to go to?

What I had in my schedule, which I planned ages in advance because I was arranging meetings and all of that kind of thing was, this is a session I have to attend, and then there might be other sessions I'm like, that will get a two, and if I'm around, I'll go to that, and if not, I'll figure it out later.

So really, planning in advance. Then, as you say, afterwards, like **reviewing your list at least a week later and seeing what still resonates from what you went through.**

There might be a ton of stuff you wrote down that a week later you're not so enamored with. So I think that's really useful, is **putting the extra time in to do the scheduling and then do the thinking later.**

Joe: Yes, and there's two things that I want to touch on that.

The first is, is one of the areas where we recognize that we can do a better job, and that is when there were lower reviews on sessions, the trend seemed to be that we didn't do a really good job at helping the audience understand that topic.

The way we did our reviews is we also asked what level you were in as an author. Then what we would see is these stratifications where it's like, oh, look at all the high reviews from these people that were beginners, and all these low reviews from people that were advanced.

We screwed up and we made this thing seem like it was for everybody. So one of the things that Chelle and I were talking about is that if you want to get your session approved, you're going to have a higher chance of doing that saying, “This is for this specific group,” than saying, “Oh no, this is for everybody.”

We really want to make sure that we're identifying the right experience level to make that work.

The second thing is, if you went to the show and you were a maniac and went to a session every time there was a session open, the best you could have seen was about 23% of the content that we put together. So I mean 70% of the sessions you miss.

Now, let's put a little math on that. You're probably not going to look at all those because of, again, what level you are. So let's say you missed half of what you should have seen. Well, that's why we're doing this whole thing about the after party that starts the 11th.

It is this idea of like, hey, we're going to have all these videos in an area. **You can watch the videos that you didn't see. There's a spot where you can go and put in questions.** We're going to submit those questions to the presenters, and then we're going to have hour-long Q&A sessions on Zoom to get those questions answered.

So you get a couple things out of this that never has happened at a show before. One is —

We can pull this virtual and live community together so we can make a more cohesive author community.

Two is, you get a way to get more value out of those sessions that you missed.

Three is, even with a session you went to, you now had time to digest it and look at your notes and think through some things on your business without being at a crazy show with all your friends.

So you may have some more questions that you want to get clarified with the speaker, and now you can get on there and say, “Hey, now I'm looking at my business. What about this or that?” And they'll be able to give you really good feedback that's pertinent to your business.

So we're really trying to think how this is a community of communities that gets results.

Joanna: Now, we do have to say that there are inevitable challenges with every business, and in fact, one of the challenges was my session, the recording didn't work. So I am actually redoing my session as part of this after party.

I'm actually going to give the session again with some updates because, of course, my talk was on AI, and it was in November, and we're two months on, and things have changed. So I'm going to be doing that again. So, yes, the challenge is sometimes things don't work.

What were some of the other things that were challenges or that you're changing and improving?

You've talked about some of them, but anything else?

Joe: So on that particular subject, out of 160 sessions, I think there were eight that we had technical issues with. So like, we want to have zero fault on that, but fortunately, we've got a solution. In your case, you don't have to record video. You just show your slides. I know this is not a thrill for you!

Joanna: No, definitely not a thrill, but I'm happy to update the slides and do it again. Like you said, you're doing the after party, so it might actually work really well.

Joe: Yes, the point is **having this situation where we can interact around that material**. Frankly, **we have to get that session done because you were one of the highest rated sessions there were.**

I think we had a fundamental difference in how AI was seen at the show, and why was that was how we were approaching the subject matter. This wasn't about how it is just used in creation of content, we were talking about all kinds of stuff.

The good and the bad of it, and as well as how this is going to be able to do things for you and your business that you don't want to do, or frankly, you're not that good at, and the machine is going to be better at it than you. So that's part of it.

Your question was about what could we do better. We have the reader event, and we're always going to struggle with that until we get to the point where we can do that on a full weekend. We know that having a Saturday for that means we get a lot more people to show up.

**We rolled out some technology at that event. It was the first time it was ever used.** It went pretty well, but we've got a whole list of stuff we have to improve with that. We wouldn't have had that list unless we went and did that project, right?

So the idea of us creating a way for us to sell print books at a show, and authors not have to figure out how to get the books there. We've got the first part of that solution. **The readers could order books, we had them printed on demand and delivered to the show**.

Now that we have that system working, and we know that it works, we need to get it so that it's a really pleasant experience for everybody. So those kind of things are **marginal things that we need to adjust to make things better.**

Again, this is stuff I enjoy.

Now that I can see where we need to improve things, then we'll figure out how to improve them.

Joanna: It's only year one!

Joe: I think that that was for us, this first year was a lot about like, okay, I've never run a show before. It's the first time I've done this.

There were people on our team that were involved with the previous show and knew what to do at the show, but we were making so many changes that there was a lot of moving parts that were new and had to be watched.

The beauty of something like this is to see the impact that it has on the community, while at the same time being able to work with people on making it happen.

So it's very fulfilling for me because this is how my creativity comes out in working on a business. It's even more rewarding because I'm doing it with people, and we're having fun. We're a very high performing team.

Joanna: Well, fantastic. So if people want to come—

Where can they get tickets for Author Nation 2025? Is there any way they can access what happened at 2024?

Joe: Sure. So right now, early ticket sales are open. So we have a deeply discounted ticket that you can buy in the month of January. So if you came to the show and bought your ticket at the show, they got the best price, and that was only available to those people that came to the show.

Now we have our early bird special, and you can go to AuthorNation.live and sign up for that.

We also have another offer there called the Regret Remedy Bundle. So what is that? There was a lot of people that were like, well, I'm going to just wait and see how this show went.

Then they lost their mind after they saw all the fun and their friends were who were at the show that were like, “Oh my God, this thing is amazing,” and all over Facebook are people sitting on these big white leather couches with smiles on their faces.

So if you, for whatever reason, didn't come, you can buy this Regret Remedy package. It includes the after party, so you'll get all the videos from 2024. Also, it's bundled with a ticket for 2025.

In both cases, **we offer an installment plan, so we're trying to help you manage your cash flow as well.** If you can't afford the full ticket, you can break that up over a six-month period to manage your cash flow better.

So again, go to AuthorNation.live to learn more about those. We've got some examples of the sessions from 2024 to give you a feel for what the show is like and all the fun testimonials from people.

I can say this, as far as the 2025 show, we've got some amazing stuff lined up. We haven't announced it yet because we're contracting things right now, but when you look at last year, we had Kevin Smith—did you stay around for the Kevin Smith?

Joanna: Yes, I was there. I'd never heard of him. Then I was like, oh, this dude is funny.

Joe: I think that a lot of people were like, why Kevin Smith? He's this old director from the 90s. One, he was so generous with his time. The session alone was almost two hours, and then he hung around with people. More so, he honestly spoke about being a creator and talked about major issues that he had in his life.

He had a severe heart attack that almost killed him. He had a nervous breakdown. He spent time in a psychiatric hospital. He talked about all those issues and was really motivational to people.

So those are the kind of people we're bringing in to have authors see, like, you're not the only ones that are having these kind of issues. **Here's a dude who's a big Hollywood movie guy, and he's dealing with the same stuff as a creator getting words on the paper.**

Joanna: Yes, fantastic. Also, we should say, since this is a podcast, you have a podcast.

Where can people find your podcast?

Joe: Sure. So you can find me at JoeSolari.com. If you're interested in some of the stuff I'm talking about around how your creativity works and this up-spiral concept of designing your business around your creative cycles, that's where that information will be.

One of my things is that I do a paid newsletter, and each year I have 45 emails on a specific subject. This year, all the research I did last year on this is being pumped out in those emails.

I talk about, like, how do you honor your default mode network? How do you work on your executive function? How do you think about becoming a creative athlete?

Oh, and then the Author Nation Podcast. That's another thing. That's on all the major channels. We have a YouTube channel as well, that way you can watch the video.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Joe. That was great.

Joe: Well, thank you. I just want to put out a special thanks to all the folks in your community that came to the show. It's not lost on Suze and I the time and effort it takes to come to an event like that. I want your community that comes every year to feel welcome and that we really love having you there.

Joanna: Oh, well, thanks so much.
The post Balancing Creativity With Building A Business, And Author Nation With Joe Solari first appeared on The Creative Penn.

**Writing Tips: Craft, Structure, and Voice With Kristen Tate** Jan 06, 2025
**Are you curious about the hidden structures that turn ordinary manuscripts into irresistible page-turning stories?** Wondering how to shape your characters, scenes, and chapters so readers can’t put your book down? Kristen Tate shares her tips.

In the intro, key book publishing paths [Jane Friedman]; sub-rights and why it’s important to understand how many ways your book can make money [Renee Fountain]; the innovation of the indie author community and biggest changes in publishing with Michael Tamblyn [KWL Podcast];

Plus, 10 publishing trends for 2025 [Written Word Media]; Unveiling 2025: Indie authors gear up for AI innovations and craft renaissance [Indie Author Magazine];
*How to Write Non-Fiction*, Second Edition is out now; and join me for a live webinar: 7 steps to write your non-fiction book in 2025, 15 Jan.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book *before* you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Kristen Tate is an editor and founder of the Blue Garret, offering editing services and advice for authors. She has a PhD in English from Columbia University, focusing on novels and publishing history. Her latest book is *Novel Study: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction*.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

**Show Notes**

Most common mistakes authors make with openings

The differences between scenes and chapters

How to plot a page-turner

The continuous development of an author's writing process

Balancing reading for pleasure and reading for research

Inadvertent plagiarism and the boundaries of fair use

Benefits of working with a human editor

Utilising AI tools while maintaining your author voice

You can find Kristen at TheBlueGarret.com.

Transcript of Interview with Kristen Tate

Joanna: Kristen Tate is an editor and founder of the Blue Garret, offering editing services and advice for authors. She has a PhD in English from Columbia University, focusing on novels and publishing history. Her latest book is *Novel Study: Decoding the Secrets and Structures of Contemporary Fiction*.

Welcome back to the show, Kristen.

Kristen: Oh, thanks. It's great to be back with you.

Joanna: Yes, and you are primarily an editor, and you're actually my editor. So we've talked about that before. So it is very interesting having you on the show to talk about this book.

Why write a book on the craft of writing fiction when you focus so much on editing?

Kristen: So I think for me, and I think this is true to some extent for you and other people who write nonfiction, but **I really write to learn**. It's just one of the ways I understand the world. So this book was one that when I started editing fiction, I wanted to be able to find this book, and never did find it.

We were talking a little bit before the interview started about my first book. It's a collection of book reviews of writing craft books. At the end of writing that book, I realized that all along **I had secretly been hoping to find like the one true formula for writing an amazing novel.**

I did find formulas, they are out there. They can be really useful, especially for beginning writers who are just starting to feel out what it takes to shape a plot or something like that.

From an editing standpoint, they don't really fit a lot of books. Each book is kind of its own, you know, it's kind of like children. They're all pretty unique.

So I decided that I really wanted to start from the other end, and **start from novels that I thought were successful in different ways, and just take them apart and figure out how they worked.** So I just kind of did that through writing.

It started as a blog, and then it eventually turned into a book so I could formalize it and share it with a wider audience.

Joanna: You mentioned there that you focused on books that were successful in different ways. What I actually appreciated is you didn't go to the common classics. I think so many writing books use older books that I feel in many ways aren't so relevant to modern fiction writers.

How did you choose the books that you focused on in this book?

Kristen: So this is one of the beauties, actually, of being an indie author. So **it was partly my taste. I didn't have to do this strategically**. I didn't have an editor or a publishing house saying, “We want you to cover these books,” or, “It would be more saleable if you covered X, Y and Z.”

I really started from **books that I knew I wanted to learn from and thought were doing something interesting**. I also really deliberately chose a big range of genres, in part because I wanted mystery writers to find something there for them, and romance writers to find something there for them.

Also, **I feel really strongly that if you're writing genre fiction, it can be really helpful to learn from other genres**. And so I wanted to give readers a way, even if they don't read a lot of mystery novels or fantasy novels or whatever, I wanted them to get a sense of just what the different opportunities are in that genre.

Joanna: I actually ended up buying one of the books.

Kristen: I keep hearing that. I think that's lovely.

Joanna: Yes, and just to be clear, there were no spoilers in the book. You managed to avoid that. So that was quite a feat as well.

Kristen: Well, for most of the books, there's a big chapter on like the overall structure, but there's a spoiler alert. So you know that if you want to read the book first before getting the spoilers, you have to hurry up and do that before you read that chapter.

Joanna: Yes. So the book is full of common questions that writers ask, or perhaps don't even know how to ask, so we're just going to go through a couple of them. You say, “Having edited hundreds of novels by this point in my career, I can tell you that the opening is the most challenging section for most writers.”

What are some of the most common mistakes you see with openings, and how can we improve them?

Kristen: So I think there are two big ones that I see over and over, and **it's mostly just a misunderstanding of what readers want to know first.**

So **I often see newer writers try to give us all the information, all the kind of surface information about their protagonist**. Things like their full name, like their last name, their hair color, their eye color, and all of this detail about physical appearance.

While we want to know about that eventually, the thing that readers really want to know is what is this character thinking and feeling. What's their story? What are they up against? What do they want? What do they need? What's standing in the way of them getting that?

All of this other stuff that I think writers are very anxious about, like, how do I get my character in front of a mirror so I can have them looking at themselves and describing themselves? You know, that's not a problem you have to solve.

Just wait for a moment where it's going to come up organically. Maybe it doesn't even ever come up, and it's just less important.

Then the other common problem I see is that, especially for a character-driven work, I'll see writers try to front load the character's backstory.

So they want us to know all of this really important information about how this character came to have the problems or the weaknesses that they have and that they're going to have to get over.

Like that's the really important part of the character arc. We need to know what's holding them back and how all of that happened, but rather than starting with it, you really want it to come more in the first third of the novel, or maybe in the halfway point. We just don't need it up front.

Again, what we need up front is what's happening right now because that's the thing that's going to pull us into the novel and give us a reason to keep reading. Everything else is kind of old news, right? **The character still needs to wrestle with it, but it's already happened. So it's just not as interesting to us as a reader.**

Joanna: On that, I remember taking ages to understand what a scene was. I think it was Larry Brooks' *Story Engineering* book that I finally learned what it was, like about four or five years into writing fiction. I confused it with a chapter.

Of course, there are writers like James Patterson who has one scene per chapter, and that might work with a lot of thrillers.

What is a scene and what is a chapter? Why are these things so important?

Kristen: Yes, that's a great question. I like to think of **scenes and chapters as being just different size containers.** It's really important to remember that readers experience your book across time.

I think when we are deep inside a book, like we've been in it so long and we know the whole story. This happens to me as an editor too. We forget that the readers are understanding the story sequentially.

So part of what's important about scenes and chapters are the white space breaks, like getting to the end of that container. **The size of the container conveys different messages, so a scene break is a smaller break** and signals to the reader that there's some kind of shift happening.

We might be doing a time jump, maybe we're switching to a different point of view, any of those kinds of things. Whereas **a chapter break is much more emphatic** and gives you a chance, as a writer, to use that extra white space to underscore something like a theme moment.

I really like writers to **pay a lot of extra attention to the few sentences right before a chapter break because they get to resonate over that white space**. So it's this extra tool that you get.

Then within the container, those are all kind of little mini stories in there. So they have a beginning and a middle and an end. It's not just like you're taking this big, giant stretch of material that is your story and arbitrarily breaking it up into pieces that go in these different containers.

The scene is where you really get to be thoughtful about how those pieces work. It's a way too of communicating to the reader in a subtle way what the structure of your book is.

So you can see this where many authors will include part breaks, and that's just a way of waving a flag to the reader and saying, okay, we're having an even bigger shift here. We're going to move to like a whole different act two of the novel.

Joanna: I think also when I first was writing, I liked to end the chapter with something that wraps it up. Whereas, what **I think I learned from James Patterson is that you can include a cliffhanger to make readers turn the page.**

I know you said there's some nice white space there, but if you want to increase the pace, you can split a scene across a chapter. So it carries on as if there's no time difference, no person difference, but it gets them into a new chapter.

As you say, some people might read two chapters before bed or something like that. So it just keeps reading. So **you can play with these containers as well.**

Kristen: Yes, and I mean, that's a good thing. **You don't want every chapter to be a cliffhanger. You want to mix it up.** Thinking about those containers as ending in different ways is a really useful way to do it.

Joanna: So another thing I think is really interesting in the book is you go through how to plot a page-turner. You know that I'm a discovery writer, and this is something that I have really thought about.

In fact, it might be something that I could achieve working with ChatGPT or Claude or something to help it corral my chaos into some kind of order.

Tell us a bit more about plotting a page-turner.

Kristen: Yes, I mean, this was one of the big questions I came into the writing of the book with. How does a writer go about constructing these complex plots, and just how do they work?

I think a lot in metaphors and visual metaphors, they really helped me. So **I think for a page-turner book, I really think about roller coasters**. So a lot of it is **about managing the kind of tension and expectation for readers.**

So if you think about a roller coaster, one of the key experiences is that **very slow, steady climb up to this big height. You're building the anticipation**, and you know you're going to go over that cliff, but a good roller coaster, that's not the only thing that happens.

You might have one of those at the beginning and another really cool one at the end, but in the middle, you have to provide other fun experiences. So there have to be some like **loop-de-loops and like an unexpected curve.**

So I think that's really what's happening in a page-turner, where **you're trying to maximize the reader's investment and get them to leap over those white spaces at the end of the chapter.** So that's one part of it.

I think the other part is really characters.

For a page-turner to really work, we have to care so deeply about your characters that we have to know what's going to happen to them.

Often too, I think you need **very high stakes**. So it really needs to be life or death. Or I think romance authors can tap into this sometimes, the happiness of the whole rest of your life is at stake. So I think those are the two qualities.

Then in terms of writing one, I think this part is hard. I didn't do a lot of research into the writing process for the books I studied, but I did look at some interviews and tried to find some detail about what these authors said about revision.

I think one of the takeaways is **it can take a lot of revision, especially if you're a discovery writer.** You really have to go back and spend some time engineering your story once you know what it is, and maybe building in some extra turns or adding some extra suspense through different techniques.

So I think you can, as a discovery writer, get it all down on the page and then go back and retool.

Joanna: Another discovery writer friend said to me that **perhaps the only way to do it as a discovery writer is to think that anyone could have done it**. Let's say it's a murder, you have to kind of write as if each of these characters did it, and then decide much later in the process who actually did it.

Kristen: You might just find in that case that you have to go back in and drop in your red herrings or your extra clues or something like that. So I think **revision can be the key**. I think it's really hard to plot a book like that with that kind of complexity and with characters that we really care about.

I think it's really hard to plot that without getting into the writing. I have not found an example, and maybe you'll get people writing into this saying that they know an example, but I haven't seen an example of someone saying, “Yes, I have been able to plot one of these very complex page-turner type novels from the outline stage.”

I think it's hard because I think that doesn't give you time to develop the characters that we care about and know what they might do.

Sometimes it is about the surprises.

I think often the best moments in a novel are where a writer will say to me, “Yes, like this character actually surprised me, and I thought they were going to do X, and they did Y.” I think that comes through in the writing, so I think it's good to **tap into those discovery elements when you can harness them.**

Joanna: Yes, it is interesting. I do remember seeing a picture of JK Rowling's spreadsheet for, I think, one of the Harry Potter's, or it might have been one of the Cormoran Strike books. I was sort of looking at the picture going, okay, that's how you plot something complicated with all of these different things.

I know some people use different software and all of that kind of thing, but it does feel like to do this kind of thing, sometimes you do need to plot a lot more in advance. I don't know, I feel like I go back and forth on wanting to try to change the way I write, and then just not doing that. I don't know.

You've worked with so many authors. Do people change [their writing style] over time?

Kristen: Yes, I think they do. I think a lot of it is knowing what your strengths are. If you're trying to make yourself do something you hate, that's just never going to work. I have definitely seen authors who have started out writing their early books, really from instinct.

Once they see the kind of revisions that I ask them to do—and **I use a story spreadsheet, it's basically a reverse outline, really, as part of my developmental editing process.**

Once they start to get those back and get the skill of seeing their novels from the top down, they start to learn how to build some of that stuff into the initial writing process. They also learn that, okay, this is something I can do during revision.

I'll see what happens when they're basically doing their own developmental edit at that point. So **they'll write a draft just as they have always done, they'll do this reverse outline, and then they'll do their own revision round**, and then be able to come to me and go straight into copy editing because they just built that in.

I definitely have seen that happen, and I think you learn new things with each book. I think there's something that happens after you get 10 books in or 20 books in, and some of that story sense just becomes really intuitive.

You don't have to think so much about things that you had to think a lot about at the beginning, like what is a scene? That just become second nature.

Joanna: Yes, definitely. I mean —

Why do we bother if we don't learn something with each book?!

Kristen: Right, it's no fun then.

Joanna: Exactly. One of the things that I do hear from some people—I mean, I read a lot of fiction, I know you obviously do—but **some authors say they can't read fiction in a niche, or just in general, because it affects their work or that they're worried about plagiarism.**

Then the way you're writing about fiction here is in a much more deconstructive way. So how can authors read fiction, I guess, in one way to learn and structure and all of that kind of thing, but also sometimes turn it off and just try to enjoy a book. It's really kind of hard to balance both.

Kristen: I have people ask me all the time—

How do you still read for pleasure when you're also an editor?

I am able to just turn off the editor brain. I think it helps that I don't read books that I'm working on on my Kindle, and that's what I read 90% of my for pleasure reading is on the Kindle now.

I do understand this concern about the inadvertent plagiarism, and I think it's one of those anxieties that is not a real thing. Especially if you are putting your heart and soul into a book and weaving your own experience into it, I think writers are going to be less influenced than they fear by what they read.

That's especially true if you read a lot. I could see if you are doing a deep dive into James Patterson or something, I could see being influenced by his style. If you're reading a different author every couple of weeks, I just don't think that that's going to happen.

I think **when you are not reading, especially like very recent fiction—and this is why I picked very recent books—you're not getting a sense of how style is changing,** of other like tips and techniques and tools you might be reading.

I just feel really strongly that novels, I mean, going back to that child metaphor, they're all so different.

So the second you see a technique that another writer has used and pull it into your book, when you apply it to your own characters and your own plot and your own style, it's not going to be really recognizable as that same technique. It's going to feel really, really different.

I just think reading is one of those ways where we get to like writing —

We get to kind of intuitively let that story structure sink into us, and it's really the most pleasurable way to learn how to write.

I really advocate for writers reading more, and like I said, reading outside of their genre.

I guess if you really can't get over that kind of anxiety of influence, that would be what I would recommend. If you're writing genre fiction, go read some literary fiction. Or if you're writing mysteries, start reading fantasy novels. You'll pick up some really cool techniques to bring back into your genre that could be exciting.

Joanna: Or it can actually just really help you on voice. I do think about author voice. I don't know if you read Richard Osman, *The Thursday Murder Club*?

Kristen: Yes. Oh, they're so fun. I actually had COVID a couple years ago, and I had such a terrible headache that I couldn't read. So I listened to them all on audio, and I still have a positive memory of my COVID experience because I spent a week just listening to those books.

Joanna: Oh, fantastic. There's going to be a movie, so if people haven't read the books. I was really resistant to the book because he's very famous here in the UK. So I kind of thought it was one of those cases of a celebrity who got a book deal, and it was going to be bad. It's so not bad. It's just fantastic.

I read all of them, as you have, and I've started his new series and everything. When I was reading it, I was like, **wow, this is so different to a book that I could ever write or would want to write.**

I've read a few kind of cozies, and they haven't come across in the same way. I think I learned from that that you can enjoy books, because I mostly read darker books. I was like, wow—

You can just love these different types of books and learn from them, even if it's a realization that this is not something you're ever going to write.

Kristen: Yes, absolutely. I think, too, that's a lesson to put more of your own personality, and humor, and weirdness, and all of that into your books.

That's **the thing that's so unique to you and is going to distinguish yourself from all of the other books that might have very similar plot moves**. Often, they do, and readers just don't care.

Joanna: Or they want that, often.

Kristen: Yes. I mean, that's what tropes are all about. **They want to see that familiar roller coaster move coming around there, it's exciting, but they want to see your spin on it.**

Joanna: We talked a bit there about inadvertent plagiarism. I wanted to come back to the quotes in the book because, of course, you're quoting writers and the chapters are also themed around certain books and authors.

There'll be people listening who are writing nonfiction books and who are collecting quotes. So how do we both use quotes within the bounds of fair use, and maybe we need to explain what that is, and also—

How do we make sure not to plagiarize accidentally?

Kristen: I have an academic background, and that really got pulled into this book. When you're writing an English Lit paper, you're taught to do **close reading and use textual evidence**. So it's second nature to me to, **if I'm making a point about the way something works in a book, to pull in a passage and take a look at it.**

Let's step back a minute and talk a little bit about **fair use**. So the way I often see this pop up as an editor is authors wanting to use song lyrics in their books. I can't even count the number of times this has come up, and I think you've had legal advisors on your show, and it's a tricky issue.

It's a little bit different for songs because they're so short. So **part of what the fair use principle is you're using a very tiny percentage of a work**. We're respecting other people's copyright and IP and all of that. Songs are very, very short. Something that's a book length work is a lot longer.

There's kind of rules of thumb out there. This is one of those gray areas in the legal context, which is frustrating, I think, for those of us who want to follow the rules and have it be very black and white.

One figure I've seen floating around is not to use more than 10% of a work. So for an 80,000 word novel, that's actually a really high number. I didn't even come close to that.

In terms of writing nonfiction and using things deliberately, I think some of it is ethical. **What I do see out there that I think crosses an ethical line are these things that are study guides of popular nonfiction books where it's kind of encouraging you to buy this shortened summary version** in place of buying the actual book.

Joanna: They drive me mad!

Kristen: Oh, yes. I mean, that's one of those things where I see them out there, and I think this doesn't seem right, and how is this allowed? That's certainly not what I'm doing. It's not what you're doing. You often use epigraphs, I know, in your nonfiction books, and all of that's fine.

What we're doing when we're **quoting authors in that way is really encouraging readers to go take a look at these books**. You include a resource section at the end of all of your nonfiction chapters, actually pointing readers to those sources that you've quoted from. So that's really important.

If you're writing nonfiction and you're doing research, the rule is really to just take meticulous notes.

I use the highlighting tool on Kindle or transcribe notes. I don't paraphrase when I am taking notes because I want to be able to go back and check exactly what the original quote is.

So I want to know when I'm quoting and when I'm not, so I can make sure I flag that in the book. **It's just about really keeping records, making sure it's all in one place, and you can go back and check that later**. Or your copy editor can check it later and make sure it's accurate, and make sure that readers can find what you're quoting.

Joanna: Yes, so just basically —

Don't use song lyrics and don't use poems, as well, unless they're out of copyright because they're often very short as well.

I think some of the other things around fair use are parody. So you can use things for parody, but parody is very difficult. It's not something we're particularly doing.

Also as part of education and commentary, which is what you're doing. With your book particularly, I feel like it is commentary. **When you've quoted things, even though they're within the fair use boundaries, it's still commentary.** So it's transformative as well.

Kristen: Exactly. It's really just a matter of, as an author, **you want to treat other authors with respect. If you're doing that, you're not going to go wrong.**

Joanna: Yes, and also context. So somebody did this to me once, and I'm still sore about it. They took a line from one of my novels to make a case that I was some kind of fascist. I was like, that is a character saying something in a novel that you've taken completely out of context.

I feel like that is part of, like you said, about respecting other people. You can probably find quotes in people's books, like people picking quotes out of the Bible and things out of context. I feel like, as you said—

It's about respecting the person whose book it is and doing that in a positive way.

You don't want anyone to happen upon your book, or for you to share it and just be really upset that you've quoted them in some way.

Kristen: I really think of **nonfiction books in particular as part of a conversation,** but actually, I think you can think of fiction books the same way. So just in a conversation with another human being, you don't want to mischaracterize what they're saying. That just doesn't lead to a productive conversation.

What I'm trying to do in this book is show how these books work and encourage readers to read them. So I'm kind of extending the conversation that these authors have already started by publishing their novel.

Joanna: Nonfiction books, to me, have a lot of elements that might come off the page in some way.

How are you taking the book and the material off the page and into people's minds in other ways?

Kristen: This is something I feel like you do really well in your nonfiction as well, is you and **your chapters with often questions, and as I said, your resources list.**

I think, for me, this happened in two ways. As I said, I'm a very visual learner, and so when I was wrestling with, especially a lot of the kind of structural elements of these novels—

There's a chapter on N. K. Jemisin's *The City We Became*, which is such a great book. She has, I think, six or seven different point of view characters and narrators. So to wrap my head around how that worked, I ended up creating figures for a lot of these things.

They're kind of graphical, so I could wrap my head around it. So that's something that I have used as a learning tool. They're on my website, and so that's something that kind of comes off the page and can help readers.

Then another thing I'm getting ready to do in the new year that I'm super excited about is I'm going to start a Novel Study Book Club. So we're going to kind of keep this reading going. The theme for next year is going to be bestsellers.

There's going to be a Patreon community. We're going to vote on a recent bestseller to take apart and study this way each month. So I'm really excited to see how that's going to work and just use it as a way to encourage people to read more.

I think if people can do it in a community, and hopefully get some kind of resources around how to unpack the structure and how to understand it, that it might be more profitable and just feel a little bit less lonely.

Joanna: Yes, I think it is interesting to do that, and often when someone else points things out. Well, in my fiction, for example, sometimes you say things in the edit and I'm like, oh, I didn't even know I thought that, or I didn't even know that that was there.

When you read in a group like that, it may be that you find things within the text and it helps other people see things that will bring out new ideas.

Kristen: I think this can really **help authors be better editors of their own work**. If the way another reader is experiencing something surprises you, that's really a learning experience right there. That's a way you might come back to your own work and think, oh, well, how can I apply this here?

As a reader, I might experience this this way, but now that I know that another reader experiences it in a very different way, I can play around with my choices here.

Joanna: Yes, it's all about **learning things and then putting it into practice**. I was thinking about this, and obviously as we've mentioned, you're my editor, but I also use ProWritingAid, and we are in this time in the writing and publishing history of generative AI.

It feels like an author could put all the craft books into practice, including yours, and then work with ChatGPT or Claude and ProWritingAid and say, do I even need a human editor? Like, why would someone hire Kristen or hire another human editor?

What are the benefits of working with a human editor in an age of generative AI?

When does it add more than software, basically? I know it's a super leading question!

Kristen: Well, I mean, it's complicated, and I think the answer to this is going to change. I mean, I think the part that's not going to change is that **ultimately, you're looking for human readers.** As good as these tools are, and many of them are quite good, they just are not a stand in for a human reader, and that's what your editor is.

I think the other thing that I see happening in particular right now with these tools is that they tend to move people towards the most common solution or answer. That's a plus in many ways, but often if you're writing fiction, that's actually not what you want.

So especially if I'm working with an author who I know has used one of these tools, either in the planning process or maybe in part in the generating process, then **as a human editor, my role is to help them be even more human.**

If I can kind of then tease out an element that I can see, “Oh, I think this is your voice versus the AI voice, and let's figure out how to heighten that.” Or, “Here's a place where you took the most obvious next step in your plot. What are five or ten ways that you could just make a left turn here, and how would that impact the reader's experience?”

The other piece is really the **human coaching element**. I find this becomes a bigger and bigger part of my editing practice is that writers, it doesn't matter how experienced they are, **there's going to be some kind of emotional or psychological stumbling block in a book.**

They may run into imposter syndrome, or they just get stuck, or they encounter writer's block or something. You really need a little bit of, I think of it as book therapy, to get a writer out of that.

It's a mix of encouragement and reminding them of the elements that are already working in their book and trying to give them a layout of a reasonable path in front of them for how to do the revision work that they need. **An AI cannot do that very convincingly yet.**

I think you really do need a human being on the other end of the screen, or the phone, or just in the Microsoft Word comments to help keep you going.

Joanna: Yes, which is that real value added side of things. I still think perhaps early writers believe that editing is just fixing grammar and typos, whereas that's a tiny, tiny piece of it. I mean an important piece, but still, as you say, it's not necessarily the most important.

You did say that sometimes when you're working with people who use AI tools—obviously, I'm very honest with you about my usage, and you've not had an issue with that, and obviously I use things in an ethical way.

So can you tell then, if someone hasn't told you, do you notice? Also, do you have a problem with AI use? Also, you're part of an organization for editors.

Should editors have a problem with AI use? Where's the line around usage?

Kristen: **I think everyone's got to decide this for themselves.** People have really strong feelings on this issue, and I understand them. I have the advantage of I live in San Francisco, and my partner works in tech. He told me, probably three years ago, these LLMs are going to be able to write a novel.

I was horrified, and said absolutely not, I don't believe you. I kind of had a mini tantrum. It prepared me for the fact that actually, now they can.

Now I definitely don't have people coming to me who have just spat out an entire novel using one of these tools. The fact is that they are not good at that. **Yes, it can be done, but they're just going to be cliched and boring and generic.**

Again, these models, they're geared not towards creativity and uniqueness and all of that. That's just not what they do. I think also **you can detect when that human element isn't there**.

So I don't have any problem with writers using them.

I can often tell, especially if it's a writer I've worked with a lot, and then they'll send me a synopsis or something, and it's just in a really different voice. **The AI voice tends to be quite flat. It's very correct, but it's very flat.** So that is something I've started to notice.

I think the thing that we have to do on both sides of the editor-author relationship is **just be really upfront about how we're using these tools, when we're using them, and experiment with when they're helpful and when they're not.**

I am absolutely 100% sold on using these AI tools to write book descriptions, for example.

Or for example, in my own book, what I did use it for was to help me with the takeaways that are at the end because they're really good at summarizing.

I then had to rewrite them in my own voice because they didn't have my voice, but even that part might come. So I think it's just going to be a matter of communicating with one another. I think being really upfront with what we're doing.

One of the things I'm adding to my contracts for 2025 is having a clause in there that makes it really clear that I'm going to ask for consent before I use one of these tools on anyone's novel.

Many of my clients are going to say no. In fact, I would say probably the majority of them really don't want me using any of these tools, and that's absolutely fine.

I think on the other side, just authors coming to me, they can tell me, “Okay, well, I've used this tool for outlining.” Certainly, some authors are not as good at a dialogue, or they're not as good at setting, or they don't think about smell or whatever.

**They have a weakness that they know that they're trying to compensate for, and they can use one of those tools to provide ideas.** If I know how they're using it, then I can, again, make sure that human element doesn't get lost.

I can make sure we're finding all of the opportunities to get their own voice in there and get rid of that kind of AI flatness that can creep in.

Joanna: Yes, interesting times indeed. We've been working together quite a few years now, and I use the tools more and more for different things, but as you know, **I work with you on every book and every short story, and I don't feel like there's any detriment to the process.**

I feel like it's almost improved a lot of areas of my business and my writing, and using ProWritingAid I hope takes a bit of the basics off your shoulders so you can focus on the more interesting side of editing and the more human element side of editing, I guess.

Kristen: Yes, and I think this is kind of where we're heading, where a lot of these tools are actually not very good at some things. You know, some of the things like commas and all of that, and there are a lot of false positives. So I actually don't use those as an editor, myself, because it slows me down.

If an author uses ProWritingAid before they come to me, that's fantastic.

Just like you said, then I can focus on the really important stuff, like line editing. That's where the real magic of editing comes. I think for a lot of editors, like that's what they want to do as well.

Like commas interest me, but they're not quite as thrilling as taking a line that's a little clunky, or just flat, or the author is missing an opportunity to introduce a really beautiful parallelism, or sharpen up a metaphor. Like, that's where the real magic comes, and that's the stuff I love, and I know most editors love that as well.

It's much more exciting than fixing typos. The typos are important to me, and I'm a perfectionist, and **I want you to have a perfect book, but let's focus in on the stuff that's really about the art**. Let some of these tools do the heavy lifting in terms of things like fact checking, and for your books, in particular, checking quotations.

There are things now that these tools just make so much faster and easier, and we can **use our very limited human time to focus on the stuff that will make a big difference.**

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where can people find you, and your books, and editing services online?

Kristen: So my business is the Blue Garret, and you can find me at TheBlueGarret.com. Then if you're interested in joining that Novel Study Book Club, you can find me on Patreon at Patreon.com/BlueGarret.

Joanna: Fantastic. Thanks so much for your time, Kristen. That was great.

Kristen: That was a lot of fun.

Takeaways:

**Focus on Character and Present Action Over Details Upfront:** Instead of front-loading physical descriptions and backstory, engage readers by showing what a character wants, feels, and faces right now.

**Think in Scenes and Chapters as Story Containers:** Use scenes to create mini-stories within the narrative and chapter breaks to control pacing, highlight emotional resonance, and keep readers turning pages.

**Approach Plotting as a Process, Not a Formula:** Complex, page-turning plots often emerge through drafting and revision. Embrace discovery writing and then retool the story’s structure once you understand its shape.

**Read Widely and Deliberately to Improve Your Craft:** Studying contemporary, diverse genres broadens your repertoire of narrative techniques and helps you integrate unique elements into your own voice.

**Use Tools But Keep It Human:** While AI and grammar software can streamline parts of the process, human editors bring insight, emotional support, and voice-cultivation that technology cannot replicate.

The post Writing Tips: Craft, Structure, and Voice With Kristen Tate first appeared on The Creative Penn.

My 2025 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn Jan 01, 2025

Happy New Year 2025! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I also measure it in years. At the beginning of each year, I publish an article (and podcast episode) here, which helps keep me accountable. If you’d […]

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Review Of My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn Dec 30, 2024

Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you can take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. It's always interesting looking […]

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Creative Clarity: Focus, Self-Care, And A Little Bit Of Tough Love Dec 23, 2024

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Writing The Other And Self-Publishing in South Africa With Ashling McCarthy Dec 02, 2024

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The Intuitive Author With Tiffany Yates Martin Nov 25, 2024

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Writing Memoir And Dealing With Haters With Natalie Maclean Nov 18, 2024

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Scaling An Author Business With Rachel McLean Oct 21, 2024

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7 Lessons Learned From Over 10 Million Downloads Of The Creative Penn Podcast Oct 16, 2024

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Writing Historical Fiction And Non-Fiction With Emily E K Murdoch Oct 14, 2024

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Author Mindset, Writing And Marketing Non-Fiction With Ariel Curry Oct 07, 2024

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How To Make Readers Laugh. Writing Humour With Dave Cohen Sep 30, 2024

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Selling Books In Person At Live Events With Mark Lefebvre Sep 23, 2024

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Lessons Learned from 13 Years as an Author Entrepreneur Sep 13, 2024

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 13 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller, dark fantasy, horror, crime, and memoir author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an […]

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Self-Publishing Training Manuals And Focusing On Your True Fans With Guy Windsor Sep 09, 2024

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Writing Horror And Selling Direct With David Viergutz Sep 02, 2024

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Author Mindset Tips And Publishing In Germany With AD Wilk Aug 26, 2024

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A Touch of the Madness: Creativity In Writing And Filmmaking With Larry Kasanoff Aug 19, 2024

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Artificial Intelligence (AI) In Publishing With Thad McIlroy Aug 12, 2024

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Heart. Soul. Pen. Find Your Voice on the Page With Robin Finn Aug 05, 2024

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Pivoting Genres And Writing Historical Fiction With Anna Sayburn Lane Jul 29, 2024

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Writing Emotion With Roz Morris Jul 22, 2024

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Intuitive Discovery Writing And Serial Fiction With KimBoo York Jul 15, 2024

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Preparing Your Manuscript For Pitching Agents With Renee Fountain Jul 08, 2024

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Writing Hard Truths And Tips For Writing Non-Fiction With Efren Delgado Jun 24, 2024

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Collaborative Writing With AI With Rachelle Ayala Jun 21, 2024

How can we use AI tools to enhance and improve our creative process? How can we double down on being human by writing what we are passionate about, while still using generative AI to help fulfil our creative vision? Rachelle Ayala gives her thoughts in this episode. Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join […]

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Writing Through Fear With Caroline Donahue Jun 17, 2024

What are some of the common fears that writers face? How can we work through them in order to create more freely? Caroline Donahue gives her tips in this interview. In the intro, How to avoid indie author scams [ALLi; Writer Beware]; Financial strategies and mindset [Self Publishing Advice]; Apple Intelligence at WWDC [The Verge; […]

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Click Testing Ideas And Selling Direct With Steve Pieper Jun 10, 2024

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7 Tips For Writing Action Adventure Thrillers With J.F. Penn Jun 05, 2024

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The Seasons Of Writing With Jacqueline Suskin Jun 03, 2024

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Plan For Success In Your Indie Author Business And TikTok Marketing With Adam Beswick May 27, 2024

How can you plan for success as an indie author even early in your writing career? How can you create multiple streams of income and multiple marketing channels, while still writing your books? Adam Beswick goes into his strategies. In the intro, Kickstarter announces new functionality to help creatives;Watch out for a scam email about […]

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Outlining Tips And Video Marketing On YouTube With Jenna Moreci May 20, 2024

How can you outline a story based on a ‘thought dump' and interweave genre tropes you love to create a successful book? How can you use video marketing to reach more readers, even if you are an introvert? Jenna Moreci gives her tips. In the intro, my new ProWritingAid tutorial; Embracing change and starting over […]

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How Writing Work For Hire Books Led To Becoming An Indie Author With Aubre Andrus May 13, 2024

How can you blend ‘work for hire', ghostwriting, and being an indie author into a successful hybrid career writing books for children? Aubre Andrus gives her tips. In the intro, Countdown Pages on FindawayVoices by Spotify; the impact of AI narrated audiobooks on Audible [Bloomberg]; Ideas for short fiction anthologies and Kevin J. Anderson's Kickstarter; […]

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Using Tools To Automate Your Author Business with Chelle Honiker May 06, 2024

How can you use automation and tools to help you streamline your creative and business processes so you can get back to the writing? Chelle Honiker gives some mindset and practical tips. In the intro, IBPA guide to publishing models; We need to talk about independence [Self Publishing Advice article; my podcast episode with Orna […]

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Human-Centered Book Marketing With Dan Blank Apr 29, 2024

How can you connect to readers in a way that is sustainable for you and effective at selling books? How can you choose the best platform when there are so many options? Dan Blank gives his recommendations. In the intro, TikTok ban signed into law in the USA [The Verge]; No One Buys Books [Elle Griffin]; […]

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The Midlist Indie Author With T. Thorn Coyle Apr 22, 2024

How can you build a creative, sustainable career as a ‘mid-list' indie author? How can you design a business that works for you and your books over the long term? T. Thorn Coyle explains more in this episode. In the intro, BookVault bespoke printing options; Harper Collins partners with Eleven Labs for AI-narrated non-English audiobooks […]

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Generative AI Impact On Creativity And Business In the Music Industry With Tristra Newyear Yeager Apr 15, 2024

What can authors learn from the adoption of AI into the music industry? What are some of the ways musicians are making money in the fractured creator economy? Tristra Newyear Yeager gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, Draft2Digital announced a retail distribution agreement with Fable [D2D]; Kobo launches a new color e-reader […]

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Facing Fears In Writing And Life With Rachael Herron Apr 08, 2024

How can you overcome your fears and make a life change towards your dreams? Or tackle the fears that stop you from writing and publishing your book? Rachael Herron talks about creating despite the fear, and getting unstuck in this interview. In the intro, Blackberry movie and IP questions; The Copyright Handbook by Steven Fishman; […]

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Different Ways To Market Your Book With Joanna Penn Apr 01, 2024

There are many options for book marketing, so how do you choose the right ones for you? I give my thoughts on the different polarities on the marketing scale to help you figure out what might work for your book, your stage on the author journey, and your lifestyle. In the intro, Storybundle for writers; […]

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Tips For Selling And Marketing Direct Using Meta Ads With Matthew J Holmes Mar 25, 2024

What mindset shift do you need if you want to sell direct? How can you use Meta and AI tools to amplify your marketing? Matt Holmes gives his tips as well as insights from running my ads for my store, JFPennBooks.com. In the intro, how to sell more books at live events [BookBub]; Future of […]

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Insights On The Enneagram And Sustain Your Author Career With Claire Taylor Mar 18, 2024

How can you use insights from the Enneagram to help you with a sustainable author career? How can you get past your blocks and move towards success, whatever that means for you? Claire Taylor provides her insights. In the intro, will TikTok be banned in the USA, and how will this impact authors and publishing? […]

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Dealing With Change And How To Build Resilience As An Author With Becca Syme Mar 11, 2024

There are more options for publishing and reaching readers than ever before, and the indie author business models are splintering and diverging, so how do we know which path to follow? How do we deal with the changes due to generative AI, and how do we manage the grief and anxiety about these shifts? Becca […]

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How To Create Beautiful Print Books And Sell Direct With Alex Smith From Bookvault Mar 04, 2024

How can you create more beautiful print books — and make more money with your products by selling direct? Alex Smith explains how BookVault can help with various options as well as helpful resources. In the intro, audiobooks and AI [Frankfurt Bookmesse]; Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds by Joanna Penn; Google's woke AI Gemini […]

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Tips On Writing Memoir With J.F. Penn Feb 26, 2024

How can you write a memoir that is emotionally honest and revealing enough for readers to care, and cope with the inevitable fear of judgment that evokes? How can you write about real places and people in memoir? Why is editing a memoir so challenging and what should you keep in mind around publishing and […]

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The Hard Joy Of Writing With Sharon Fagan McDermott and M.C. Benner Dixon Feb 19, 2024

How can we focus on the joy of the writing process itself, rather than the outcome? How can we embrace the positive side of being jealous of the success of other writers? How can we deepen our writing with metaphor and sense of place? Co-authors of writing book, Millions of Suns, Sharon and Christine share […]

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Writing And Producing A Micro-Budget Film With Jeffrey Crane Graham Feb 12, 2024

How can you pick yourself, rather than wait for someone else to pick you? How can you take control of your independent career and bring your creative vision to life? Jeffrey Crane Graham talks about his experience as an indie filmmaker, with lots of tips for indie authors. In the intro, 6 Types of Submission […]

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Your Author Brand With Isabelle Knight Feb 05, 2024

How do you find the story behind all your stories? Who are you at the heart of your books? Isabelle Knight talks about the importance of author brand in an age of limitless content, and gives tips on how to discover yours. In the intro, 20 new miniature books added to Queen Mary’s Dollhouse [BBC]; […]

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How To Be Successful On Kickstarter With Paddy Finn Jan 29, 2024

What are the benefits — and the challenges — of crowdfunding on Kickstarter? How can you fund successfully, as well as make a profit with your campaign? Paddy Finn gives his tips. In the intro, you can find more selling direct resources here; Streaming due for a streamlining [FT]; Authors Guild explores AI licensing deal […]

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A Creative Approach To Generative AI In Book Cover Design With James Helps Jan 26, 2024

I really enjoyed this laid-back discussion around AI tools as part of the creative book cover design process with James Helps from Go On Write. We discuss how generative AI tools can help make more unique and interesting cover designs, and how designers can have a more imaginative time making them. This episode is supported […]

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Direct Sales And Merchandising For Authors With Alex Kava Jan 22, 2024

What are the benefits and challenges of selling direct? How can you use limited edition merchandise to add more value to retailers and make more money on a launch? Alex Kava talks about her author business. In the intro, award-winning Japanese writer, Rie Kudan, used ChatGPT to write parts of her prize-winning novel and judges […]

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Facing Fears, And Writing Unique Characters With Barbara Nickless Jan 15, 2024

How can we move past our fears to write the books that mean the most to us? How can we write unique and compelling characters that keep readers coming back for more in a series? Barbara Nickless talks about mindset and writing craft in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Planning for a Creative 2024 […]

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The Next Strategic Step On Your Author Journey And Author Nation With Joe Solari Jan 08, 2024

Wherever you are on the author journey, there are some important questions to consider along the way. Joe Solari outlines a strategic step forward for new authors, midlist indies, and those with ambitious financial goals. Plus, what is Author Nation? In the intro, Top 10 trends for publishing [Written Word Media]; Indie author predictions for […]

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My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn [Updated] Jan 01, 2024

Happy New Year 2024! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I measure it in years. At the end of each year, I make a photobook, and I publish an article here, which helps keep me […]

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Review Of My 2023 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn Dec 31, 2023

Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals and you're welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. In the intro, 2023 […]

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The 15-Year Author Business Pivot With Joanna Penn Dec 18, 2023

In this episode, I reflect on 15 years of TheCreative Penn, and outline how I will reposition myself for the next 15 years of being an author entrepreneur. In the intro, We used to do that [Seth Godin]; Penguin Random House has acquired Hay House [Publishing Perspectives]; Business for Authors; Your Author Business Plan; OpenAI […]

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How Generative AI Search Will Impact Book Discoverability In The Next Decade Dec 11, 2023

How will changes to the way people search impact book discoverability? What can authors and publishers do to ensure their books are still found in the new form of generative AI search? While it's still early days for this technology, I share my thoughts in this article, with the hope that we can surf the […]

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Publishing A Cookery Photo Book With Jane Dixon-Smith Dec 04, 2023

Do you want to publish an image-heavy book like a cookbook? How can you navigate the challenges of photography, book design, and publishing choices to make the best product possible? Jane Dixon-Smith shares her lessons learned from her first cookbook. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson's predictions about publishing [Daniel Greene]; Craig Mod talks about walking […]

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Subscriptions And The Creator Economy With Michael Evans Nov 27, 2023

How might subscriptions help expand your author business ecosystem? What are some tips on encouraging readers to buy direct? Why is the future looking positive for authors in the creator economy? Michael Evans gives his thoughts. In the intro, marketing for multi-genre authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Same as Ever: Timeless lessons on risk, opportunity, and […]

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Starting A Second Career As An Author And Networking Tips With Patrick O’Donnell Nov 20, 2023

How can you transition into being an author after a long-term career elsewhere? How can you adopt an attitude of service in order to build your network in an authentic manner? Patrick O'Donnell shares his tips. In the intro, Spotify subscribers in the US now have 15 hours of free audiobook listening [The Verge] — […]

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The Mindset And Business Of Selling Books Direct With Russell Nohelty Nov 13, 2023

How can you shift your mindset from catalog sales to selling direct? How can you reframe the direct author business model to take advantage of creative possibilities for different kinds of products and long-term marketing? Russell Nohelty gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, Top 10 tips for indie authors [Clare Lydon]; 10 […]

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Pinterest For Book Marketing With Trona Freeman Nov 06, 2023

How can using Pinterest more like a search engine help you sell more books? What are some of the ways to use Pinterest most effectively for book marketing? Trona Freeman gives her tips. In the intro, KDP announce an Invite-Only KDP Beta for Audiobooks; How to Double Down on Being Human: 5 Ways to Stand […]

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Managing Your Author Business Over The Long Term With Tracy Cooper-Posey Oct 30, 2023

How can you reinvigorate your writing process, breathe life into your backlist, and prepare your author business for the rollercoaster that is publishing? Tracy Cooper-Posey gives her tips. In the intro, Authors Guild results [The Hotsheet]; more Promo Stacks with Written Word Media; Amazon's robot [BBC]; Amazon's generative image AI for products [Venture Beat]; Shutterstock's […]

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Stop Trying To Do Everything With Patricia McLinn Oct 23, 2023

How do you keep up with everything you need to do as your author business grows? How do you decide what to focus on as the industry changes — and you change, too? Patricia McLinn discusses her challenges with a big backlist of books and a mature indie author business. In the intro, Self-publishing's ongoing […]

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Writing The Soul Of Place With Linda Lappin Oct 16, 2023

What is soul of place or genius loci and how can you write it in a more immersive way in your books? How can you discover it closer to home, as well as write real settings more authentically, and invent it for your fiction? Linda Lappin gives some tips in this interview. In the intro, […]

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Let Your Dark Horse Run. Writing The Shadow With Joanna Penn Oct 13, 2023

How can you let your creative dark horse run? What is the Shadow — and why explore your Shadow side? This episode features excerpted chapters from the audiobook of Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, written and narrated by Joanna Penn, available on Kickstarter until 25 October 2023: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shadowbook (link will redirect […]

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Writing Faster Without Burning Out With LA Witt Oct 09, 2023

How can you establish a creative routine that enables you to write the books you want to write without burning out? How can you balance a sustainable work ethic as an author as well as spending time away from the desk. LA Witt talks about her strategies. In the intro, Spotify introduces 15 hours of […]

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Adapting To Change With Jessie Kwak Oct 02, 2023

As much as we try to plan for things, sometimes life happens and we have to adapt to a new situation. Jessie Kwak talks about adapting to life as a freelance writer and author after being injured, and her tips for managing work and energy. In the intro, I mention Accessibility for All, the interview […]

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Writing And Publishing A High Quality Photo Book With Jeremy Bassetti Sep 25, 2023

How can you create a high-quality photo book and publish it on Kickstarter? How do you market a beautiful, high-value book? Jeremy Bassetti talks about his photo book project, Hill of the Skull. In the intro, Slow release book strategies [ALLi]; Seth Godin on how he is using ChatGPT; Consultants using AI worked faster and […]

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Lessons Learned from 12 Years as an Author Entrepreneur Sep 18, 2023

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 12 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. In the intro, Finding readers [ALLi blog]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. […]

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Writing And Producing Audio Drama With Joanne Phillips Sep 11, 2023

What's the difference between an audio book and an audio drama? What are the steps to write a script and produce it? Joanne Phillips gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon KDP's new AI content guidelines; AI at the heart of what Amazon does [The Verge]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter; 1000 Libraries Kickstarter; Today's show […]

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Using AI Images In Your Book Cover Design Process With Damon Freeman Sep 07, 2023

How can you expand the possibilities of book cover images with AI? What are some of the controversies and how can authors and designers work together with AI tools to create original design? Book cover designer Damon Freeman discusses his views. There are lots of links in the show notes below to specific resources, but […]

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Producing Visual, High Quality Books, Thinking Differently, and Kickstarter Lessons With Holger Nils Pohl Sep 04, 2023

How might thinking differently help you create clarity in our noisy world? How can you produce a high-quality print book — and successfully fund it on Kickstarter? Holger Nils Pohl discusses these things and more. In the intro, Copyright in an age of AI [Self Publishing Advice, Monica Leonelle, Ars Technica, The Verge, The Atlantic; […]

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Writing Poetry In The Dark With Stephanie Wytovich Aug 28, 2023

How can you stop self-censoring your writing and share the deepest aspects of yourself with your readers? How can you break poetry out of the restraints that many try to put upon it? Stephanie Wytovich talks about these things and more. In the intro, 5 trends that are shifting the future of publishing with Monica […]

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Build A Successful Author Business For The Long Term With Joe Solari Aug 21, 2023

How can you build an author business for the long term, and not just for the launch of one book? How do you ensure secure cash flow and profits, instead of focusing on short-term spike sales? Joe Solari discusses key aspects of your author business. In the intro, Kobo Plus expands to audiobooks in Australia […]

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Publishing Books For Children And Profitable School Visits With Tonya Ellis Aug 14, 2023

How can you create a book series that children love — and that you can expand into multiple streams of income? How can you offer a fantastic experience to schools — and get paid well for your time? Tonya Duncan Ellis gives her tips. In the intro, investment firm KKR will buy Simon & Schuster […]

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How AI Tools Are Useful For Writers With Disabilities And Health Issues With S.J. Pajonas Aug 10, 2023

How can AI tools help authors who struggle with energy and time because of disability, chronic pain, health conditions, post-viral fatigue, or other unavoidable life issues? Steph Pajonas explains why AI is important for accessibility and more. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think […]

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The Marketing Mind Shift And The Power Of Ad Stacking With Ricci Wolman Aug 07, 2023

How can you shift your mindset in order to reach more readers with your books? How can you leverage the tools available for authors to sell more copies? Ricci Wolman from Written Word Media gives her tips. In the intro, The Hotsheet useful newsletter; Book publishing is broken; In the US, the Federal Trade Commission […]

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Writing Fast, Collaboration, And Author Mindset With Daniel Willcocks Jul 31, 2023

How can you write fast but also make your creative process sustainable for the long term? How can you collaborate effectively with other authors in your genre? Dan Willcocks talks about his creative and business approach. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires SelfPubBookCovers; Different types of creative energy [Self Publishing Advice]; Twitter becomes X [The Verge]; […]

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Writing From Your Shadow Side With Michaelbrent Collings Jul 24, 2023

How can you use what you're scared of to write better stories that resonate with readers? How can you acknowledge your shadow side and bring aspects of it into the light in a healthy way that serves you and your customers? Michaelbrent Collings talks about his experiences — and you can do my Shadow Survey […]

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Your Publishing Options With Rachael Herron Jul 17, 2023

What are the pros and cons of traditional publishing vs self-publishing? How can you combine multiple options for a more creatively satisfying — and profitable — author career? Rachael Herron gives her tips. In the intro, Power Thesaurus and editing tips for audio; How Writers Fail — Kris Rusch; Finishing energy; Sidekick for Shopify; Shadow […]

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Writing Tips From The Movies With John Gaspard Jul 10, 2023

How can you exploit the unique in your stories, as well as amp up the conflict? John Gaspard gives writing and creative business tips based on movies and TV. In the intro, Meta launches Threads, the new Twitter-like app — you can follow me @jfpennauthor; Possible Podcast episode with Ethan Mollick; Moonshots and Mindsets podcast […]

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9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence (AI) Will Disrupt Authors And The Publishing Industry. An Update With Joanna Penn And Nick Thacker Jul 03, 2023

Four years ago, in July 2019, I put out a podcast episode that went through the 9 disruptions I saw coming for authors and publishing in the next decade. It turns out that most are happening faster than even I expected. In this episode, Nick Thacker and I discuss some of the main points. In […]

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Using Sudowrite For Writing Fiction With Amit Gupta Jun 29, 2023

How can fiction authors use Sudowrite to assist with writing tasks they need help with? What functionality does Sudowrite have that will be useful to different types of writers? Amit Gupta gives his tips in this interview. I use and recommend Sudowrite as part of my creative process. You can try Sudowrite through my affiliate […]

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The Craft And Business Of Writing Non-Fiction Books With Stephanie Chandler Jun 26, 2023

How can you stand out in a crowded market of non-fiction books? How can you build a business around your central topic? How can you deal with failure to move on to success? Stephanie Chandler shares her experience and tips. In the intro, HarperCollins and KKR make bids for Simon & Schuster [The Hotsheet]; more […]

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How Authors Can Use Bookfunnel To Reach Readers And Sell Direct With Damon Courtney Jun 18, 2023

How can Bookfunnel help authors reach more readers, sell more books, and sell direct? Damon Courtney outlines features of Bookfunnel that you might not know about. In the intro, Hello Books and Written Word Media have joined forces for promo stacking; Call to Action (CTA) tips [ALLi]; my free Author Blueprint; Bundle for writers [Storybundle]. […]

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Novel Marketing And Christian Publishing With Thomas Umstattd Jr. Jun 12, 2023

What are some of the most effective ways to market your book? What strategies have remained the same despite the rise of new tactics? What are the best ways to reach a Christian audience? Thomas Umstattd Jr. gives plenty of tips in this interview. In the intro, Freedom, fame, or fortune — what do you […]

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Writing Your Transcendent Change: Memoir With Marion Roach Smith Jun 05, 2023

Memoir can be one of the most challenging forms to write, but it can also be the most rewarding. Marion Roach Smith talks about facing your fears, as well as giving practical tips on structuring and writing your memoir. In the intro, Amazon's category changes [KDP Help; Kindlepreneur; Publisher Rocket]; Book description generation with AI; […]

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Crafting Your Novel’s Key Moments With John Matthew Fox May 29, 2023

What are the crucial linchpin moments in your novel and how can you keep a reader turning the pages? John Fox gives fiction writing tips in this interview. In the intro, writing and publishing across multiple genres [Ask ALLi]; Pilgrimage and solo walking [Women Who Walk]; My live webinars on using AI tools as an […]

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Writing Novels Inspired By Place With Tony Park May 22, 2023

How can we write about places that inspire us in an authentic way even when they are not our own country? Tony Park gives his tips for writing setting, and also outlines how his publishing experience has changed over the last two decades. In the intro, KDP printing costs are changing from 20 June; plus, […]

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Making Art From Life. Mental Health For Writers With Toby Neal May 15, 2023

What are some of the common mental health issues that writers face? How can we use writing to help us process our problems, and turn our life into art through our books? Author and mental health therapist Toby Neal shares her thoughts and tips. It's Mental Health Awareness Week here in the UK with a […]

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Intentionality, Beauty, and Authorship. Co-Writing With AI With Stephen Marche May 12, 2023

AI tools can generate words, but the human intention behind it, as well as the skill of the author, drives the machine. Stephen Marche talks about the creative process behind Death of an Author, 95% written by AI, out now from Pushkin Industries. Today's show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain […]

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Generative AI And The Indie Author Community With Michael Anderle And Dan Wood May 07, 2023

What are the implications of generative AI for the indie author community? How can we make choices for our own creative business while respecting the decisions of others? Dan Wood (Draft2Digital) and Michael Anderle (20BooksTo50K, LMBPN) and I discuss our recommendations for the way forward. In the intro, Ingram Spark offers free title setup and […]

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The AI-Assisted Artisan Author With Joanna Penn May 05, 2023

What is the AI-Assisted Artisan Author? How can we use AI tools in our creative and business processes while still keeping our humanity at the core of our books? As generative AI development continues apace and new possibilities emerge every week, the focus of AI discussions in the author community has been centered around productivity […]

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Excellent Advice For Living With Kevin Kelly May 01, 2023

How can we build a creative life based on following our curiosity? What are some important attitudes to hold that will help us with a sustainable life and career? Kevin Kelly shares some Excellent Advice for Living. In the intro, author newsletter tips [BookBub]; Mark Dawson's 20+ year writing journey; Thoughts on 20Books Seville and […]

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Book Marketing: How To Get Publicity For Your Book With Halima Khatun Apr 24, 2023

How can publicity form part of your book marketing strategy? How can you research the best media and craft a pitch or a press release that might get you and your book some attention? Why is publicity still useful in an age of pay-per-click direct advertising? Halima Khatun shares her valuable tips and experience. In […]

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The Challenges Of Small Press Publishing With Jon Barton Apr 17, 2023

What are the most important aspects of becoming a successful publisher? Jon Barton talks about his lessons learned and how to avoid the pitfalls. In the intro, Amazon AWS Bedrock for generative AI; Impromptu: Amplifying our Humanity Through AI by Reid Hoffman and co-written with GPT4; reflections on the fantastic 20BooksSpain Seville conference; Ideas and […]

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How To Use ProWritingAid To Improve Your Writing With Chris Banks Apr 14, 2023

You cannot see many of the problems with your own writing, as you are so close to the manuscript. ProWritingAid can help you self-edit your work before you take it on to a human editor, so they can focus on the bigger issues. In this episode, Chris Banks, the CEO of ProWritingAid talks about how […]

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Writing Nature Memoir With Merryn Glover Apr 10, 2023

How can we bring a place alive in our writing? How can we tackle the challenges of writing different types of books at different times in our writing career? Merryn Glover talks about her experience in this episode. In the intro, Kobo launches Kobo Plus in the US and UK; Amazon is closing Book Depository; […]

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Legal Aspects Of Generative AI And Copyright With Kathryn Goldman Apr 02, 2023

As generative AI tools continue to expand the possibilities for creators, what does this mean for aspects of copyright? Intellectual property lawyer, Kathryn Goldman, talks about the possible ramifications. In the intro, Ben's Bites newsletter, Microsoft Co-Pilot for Office tools [The Verge]; Canva Create AI-powered design tools; Adobe Firefly for generative images; OpenAI ChatGPT Plugins […]

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Lessons Learned And Tips From Pilgrimage, My First Kickstarter Campaign Mar 27, 2023

My Kickstarter campaign for my travel memoir, Pilgrimage, funded within minutes and raised over £26,000 (over US$31,000) for a niche book in a new market. In this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips for a successful campaign. In the intro, I mention the 6 Figure Author Podcast, The Writers Well Podcast, and Reid […]

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Prolific Writing, Diversification, And Using Emerging Technologies With Joseph Nassise Mar 20, 2023

If you want a long-term successful career as an author, you need to learn the craft and the business of writing. Joseph Nassise talks about his writing process, how he diversifies his business across different publishers, different products, and different technologies, as well as how he is embracing new options for his books. In the […]

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Writing Fiction With Sudowrite With Leanne Leeds Mar 17, 2023

We all use tools to help us improve our skills, and in this episode, Leanne Leeds explains how she uses the generative AI tool, Sudowrite, to write better books and serve her readership more effectively. In the intro, OpenAI launches GPT4, and how it can be used for accessibility with Be My Eyes. Other tools […]

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Content For Everyone: Accessibility For Authors With Jeff Adams Mar 13, 2023

Writers and readers are a diverse bunch, and we all want to do our best to make sure our content is accessible to all. But how do we do that when it seems like a huge (and time-consuming) challenge for an individual creator? Jeff Adams gives some tips for getting started. In the intro, making […]

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Writing And Investing For A Long Term Indie Author Career With Lindsay Buroker Mar 06, 2023

What are the core fundamentals of a successful independent author business? How can you focus on writing, as well as sell more books, and stay healthy? Prolific fantasy author Lindsay Buroker shares her tips. In the intro, YouTube gets into audio-only podcasts; Seth Godin's book marketing for The Song of Significance; How to make more […]

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How To Build A Seven Figure Book Business Selling Direct To Readers With Pierre Jeanty Feb 27, 2023

Write and publish what you want, get paid every day for your books, and control your customer data and relationships. It's possible if you sell direct, as Pierre Jeanty talks about in this interview. In the intro, the author income survey [ALLi]; publishing clauses to avoid [Writer Unboxed; Writer Beware]; copyright registration for AI-assisted comic […]

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The Tsunami Of Crap, Misinformation, And Responsible Use Of AI With Tim Boucher Feb 24, 2023

After many years of people saying, “AI can never be creative, AI could never write fiction (i.e. make things up), it's now evident that the generative AI tools make a lot up — and we need to be aware of the potential ramifications. How can we use the tools to achieve our creative purpose in […]

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Co-Writing In A Shared Universe And Changing Indie Business Models With Martha Carr Feb 20, 2023

How can you create a universe big enough for multiple series? How can you co-write successfully? How can you pivot your business model to achieve your creative, financial, and lifestyle goals? Martha Carr talks about these things and more. In the intro, Simon & Schuster is back up for sale [Reuters, Episode 662 with Jane […]

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Book Marketing Mindset, Ideas, And Ambition With Honoree Corder Feb 13, 2023

How can you embrace book marketing as a creative part of your author business? How can you effectively market your backlist over time? How can you tap into ambition and drive your author business onward and upward? Honoree Corder talks about all this and more. In the intro, Draft2Digital add a new library marketplace [D2D]; […]

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Writing Choctaw Characters And Diversity In Fiction With Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer Feb 06, 2023

Who are the Choctaw people and how can authors write authentic Native Americans in their books? How can we research diverse characters and include a diverse cast without worrying about cancel culture? Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer talks about how her Choctaw heritage influences her books. In the intro, the Pilgrimage Kickstarter is done — thanks to […]

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The Empowerment Of Selling Books Direct To Your Readers With Steve Pieper Jan 30, 2023

What are the benefits of selling direct? Why might using your face to advertise your books be a good idea? What might be the future of selling direct? Steve Pieper talks about these things and more. In the intro, ACX lowering audiobook prices, Chokepoint Capitalism, Audiblegate, Copyright valuation [Dean Wesley Smith]; courses on copyright; Happy […]

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Writing Travel Memoir, Fear Of Judgment, Fear Of Failure, And Journaling With J.F. Penn Jan 28, 2023

What do you need to consider when writing travel memoir? How fear of judgment and fear of failure are real issues even for established authors, and more in these selected excerpts from interviews with J.F. Penn around Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. In this episode, I talk about: I have a […]

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The Importance Of Confident Creative Direction, Voice, And Taste, In Generative AI Art With Oliver Altair Jan 26, 2023

How can you use AI tools to ethically and responsibly create in whatever sphere you love? What are some of the tools and why are creative direction, voice, and taste, so important? I discuss these issues and more in a solo introduction and an interview with Oliver Altair. In the first 28 mins of the […]

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Multi-Six Figure Book Sales And The Power Of Daily Habits With Marc Reklau Jan 23, 2023

How can small, daily habits make you more successful as an author? How can you use the 80/20 rule in your author business? How can you create multiple streams of income when you sell mostly print? Marc Reklau shares his tips in the interview. In the intro, my Kickstarter for Pilgrimage is live!; Spotify's promotion […]

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Intuitive Writing And Book Marketing With Becca Syme Jan 16, 2023

Do you sometimes just ‘know' when a story is right? Does something ‘click' during the writing process and suddenly things make sense? Do you lean into your curiosity and emotion when it comes to writing and marketing? If yes, you might be an intuitive writer, as Becca Syme explains in this interview. In the intro, […]

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How To (Finally) Finish Your Book With Roz Morris Jan 09, 2023

What are the most common reasons why writers don't finish their books —and how can you overcome them in order to finish yours this year? Roz Morris gives practical writing and mindset tips. In the intro, Spotify promo codes [FindawayVoices]; Rachael Herron's money episode [How Do You Write?]; Changes at Amazon [Kris Writes, BBC]; AI […]

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How To Use Paid Advertising As Part Of Your Book Marketing With Mark Dawson Jan 06, 2023

How can you use paid advertising as part of your book marketing strategy? How can you reach more readers and sell more books in the year ahead? Mark Dawson provides strategies and tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing trends for 2023 [Written Word Media]; Apple AI narration; ChatGPT into Bing [The Verge]; Comments […]

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My 2023 Creative and Business Goals With Joanna Penn Jan 01, 2023

Happy New Year 2023! I am more excited than ever this year about the books I want to write and publish. I've had a difficult few years (haven't we all?!) but now I'm ready to create at full throttle in 2023, aided by the incredible AI-powered tools emerging for writers. Here's an overview of my […]

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Review Of My 2022 Creative Business Goals Dec 30, 2022

Another year ends, and once more, it's time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals, and leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? You can read my 2022 goals here and I reflect on what I […]

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What Do You Need To Quit? With Joanna Penn And Orna Ross Dec 26, 2022

“If you just keep writing/querying/marketing/etc you will eventually be successful. Just don't give up.” We've all heard a variation of this, but what if it isn't true? When is quitting worthwhile? Joanna Penn and Orna Ross discuss Quit: The Power of Knowing When To Walk Away by Annie Duke and give examples of what they […]

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Changes In Publishing With Jane Friedman Dec 19, 2022

What has changed in the publishing industry over the last few years? What can authors learn from the DOJ vs PRH court case? How can mid-list authors thrive in uncertain times? Jane Friedman talks about these things and more. In the intro, USA Today list is on indefinite hiatus [US News]; Paid for bestseller list; […]

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Choosing Your Route To Publication With Barnaby Jameson Dec 12, 2022

Why might a first-time author choose to independently publish? Barnaby Jameson talks about his experience with his first historical novel, and why valuing intellectual property is critical for authors to understand. Plus tips for self-publishing and marketing. In the intro, Draft2Digital distributing to Smashwords store [D2D], expansion of Google Play Books auto-narration into more countries, […]

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Co-writing Fiction With Generative AI With Charlene Putney Dec 09, 2022

How can authors use generative AI as a co-writing tool? How can creatives approach AI possibilities with curiosity rather than fear? Charlene Putney talks about writing with LAIKA. In the intro, ChatGPT, thoughts on the GitHub Co-Pilot case [WIRED]; and why digital abundance is an opportunity for curious creatives, not a threat. I also mention […]

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Pivoting Genres And Mindset Tips For Success With Dan Padavona Dec 05, 2022

If you're not making the money you expected from your books, how can you pivot genres in order to write what you enjoy AND make a living? How can you change your mindset to one of creative abundance and productivity? Dan Padavona talks about these topics and more. In the intro, publishing year in review […]

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Writing Tips: The Anatomy Of Genres With John Truby Nov 28, 2022

What is genre, and how can transcending it improve your fiction? How can you effectively write cross genre? John Truby gives an overview of the Anatomy of Genres. In the intro, the PRH acquisition of S&S is over [The Guardian]; Amazon Advertising Everywhere [Vox]; Spotify expands audiobooks to more markets [TechCrunch]; Plus, 20BooksVegas recordings; Machines […]

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The Long Game With Dorie Clark Nov 21, 2022

How can we shift our mindset to thinking about a long-term creative career? What can we do now that will make our future selves happy? Dorie Clark gives some ideas for playing the long game. In the intro, sell books directly on TikTok Shop [The Guardian]; Plan for author success in 2023 [K-lytics webinar, 1 […]

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Using Generative AI For Digital Collectibles And NFTs With J. Thorn Nov 18, 2022

How can generative AI tools augment and amplify your creativity? How can digital originals/collectibles (NFTs) add value to authors and readers? In the intro, my solo episode on Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash: NFTs for Authors (also in video); Midjourney v4 [Ars Technica]; Deviant Art launches their own generative AI tool [Engadget]; Rumors of GPT-4 […]

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5 Steps To Author Success With Rachel McLean Nov 14, 2022

How can you find the intersection between what the market wants and what you love to read? How can you strategically seed book sales to improve your marketing? Rachel McLean talks about her 5 steps to indie author success. In the intro, how to predict and profit from publishing trends [ALLi blog]; my live, in-person […]

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Self-Publishing LaunchPad With James Blatch Nov 09, 2022

What are some of the fundamentals behind self-publishing success? James Blatch shares tips and insights. James Blatch is a historical military thriller author. He’s also the co-founder of Self-Publishing Formula, Fuse Books, Hello Books, and the co-host of The Self-Publishing Show. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are […]

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Writing And Marketing Diverse Books For Children With Ada-Ari Nov 07, 2022

How can you create an ecosystem of children's books around a central idea? How can you market books for children? Ada-Ari talks about how she writes, publishes and markets her children's books based on African folk tales and African languages in the USA. In the intro, Court blocks the PRH S&S merger [PublishersWeekly]; Spoken Word […]

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Using Tropes To Strengthen Your Fiction With Jennifer Hilt Oct 31, 2022

What are tropes and how can you use them to strengthen your fiction? What are some examples of horror tropes, in particular? With Jennifer Hilt. In the intro, Why book sales are down and what to do about it [6 Figure Authors]; Undisruptible: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention for Individuals, Organisations, and Life by Aidan […]

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Writing Beginnings with Shane Millar Oct 24, 2022

What do you need in the beginning of your novel so your reader buys your book? Shane Millar shares tips for writing brilliant beginnings, regardless of your genre. In the intro, trends in what publishers want at Frankfurt Book Fair [Publishing Perspectives] Adobe incorporating AI-generation alongside a Content Authenticity Initiative [Adobe blog]; Bertelsmann-owned venture capital […]

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How Creativity Rules the World With Maria Brito Oct 17, 2022

How does curiosity fuel creativity? How can we balance consumption and creation in an ever-busier digital life? How can you break out of the myth of the ‘starving artist'? Maria Brito talks about How Creativity Rules the World. In the intro, insights into Colleen Hoover's popularity [NY Times]; Amazon bugs [Kindlepreneur]; Ingram invests in Book.io […]

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Using AI For Art, Images, And Book Covers With Derek Murphy Oct 13, 2022

Generative art tools like DALL-E, Midjourney, and Stable Diffusion are taking AI art into the mainstream. What are the opportunities for authors? What are the problems and controversies to be aware of? I talk about these issues and more with Derek Murphy. In the intro, I mention my J.F. Penn NFTs with AI-generated art based […]

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The Way Of The Fearless Writer With Beth Kempton Oct 10, 2022

How can we accept imperfection as writers while still striving for excellence? How can we make space for going deeper into our writing while managing a busy life? Beth Kempton talks about The Way of the Fearless Writer in this wide-ranging interview on the creative mindset. In the intro, when life throws a curveball and […]

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Different Traditional Publishing Experiences With Georgina Cross Oct 03, 2022

Traditional publishing is not a monolithic thing. There are different kinds of publishers, and authors want different things out of a publishing deal and relationship. Georgina Cross talks about her experience with two different traditional publishers and the pros and cons of each. In the intro, new e-reading devices, Kobo Clara 2E and Kindle Scribe; […]

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Writing Tips: Outlining/Plotting Vs Discovery Writing/Pantsing Sep 30, 2022

Every fiction author will (eventually) find their own method for writing but all fall somewhere on the spectrum between outlining/plotting and discovery writing/pantsing/writing into the dark. In this excerpt from How To Write a Novel, I share two chapters on the topic from the audiobook, narrated by me (Joanna Penn). You can listen above or […]

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Transmedia And Publishing Comics And Graphic Novels With Barry Nugent Sep 26, 2022

How can you adapt your novel into a comic or graphic form? What are the different types? How does a creative career develop over the long term and when do you need to take a step back to consider how to move forward? Barry Nugent talks about all this and more. In the intro, Amazon […]

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Lessons Learned From 11 Years As An Author Entrepreneur Aug 29, 2022

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 11 years as a full-time author entrepreneur, and why I am (finally) taking some time off. In the intro, Soldiers of God short story, The Creator Economy for Authors course (use coupon SUMMER22 for 30% off), Science Fiction Writing online conference, Author Tech Summit; […]

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Estate Planning For Authors With Michael La Ronn Aug 22, 2022

How can you make sure your heirs and successors are able to manage your books and copyright licensing after your death? What aspects do you need to think about in terms of your author estate? Michael La Ronn explains this important topic in clear terms. In the intro, more quotes from the DOJ vs PRH […]

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Auto-Narrated Audiobooks With Ryan Dingler From Google Play Books Aug 19, 2022

What is auto-narration of audiobooks and how can it benefit authors and rights-holders as well as listeners? What are some of the common objections to auto-narration and how can we keep a positive attitude to embracing change? Ryan Dingler from Google Play Books goes into detail on these questions and more. You can also listen […]

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Writing Conflict With Becca Puglisi Aug 15, 2022

How can you intensify the conflict in your books to hook readers? How can you introduce different types and layers of conflict to improve your story? Becca Puglisi explains why and how to write conflict. In the intro, thoughts on the DOJ vs PRH trial [Twitter @JohnHMaher] and Publishers Weekly round-up; my thoughts on subscription […]

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Selling Books Direct With Shopify: The Minimum Viable Store Aug 12, 2022

In July 2022, I launched my online shop at www.CreativePennBooks.com. It’s built on Shopify’s eCommerce platform, and in this solo episode, I’ll explain why I built the store, my lessons learned, tips if you want to build your own, and how I intend to expand it over time. This episode is sponsored by my wonderful […]

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Selling Books Direct On Shopify With Morgana Best Aug 08, 2022

Selling your books direct to readers and listeners can bring you more money, faster, and allow you to control your customer's experience and data. Morgana Best explains why selling direct is so important for an author business, and some of her tips for implementing a Shopify store. In the intro, the publishing court case of […]

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Lessons Learned From 3 Years As A Full-Time Author with Sacha Black Aug 01, 2022

What do you need to consider if you want to go full time as an author entrepreneur? What challenges might you face in your first few years? Sacha Black shared her lessons learned from 3 years full-time. In the intro, PRH and S&S merger heads to trial [Publishers Weekly]; Pilgrimage episodes on my Books and […]

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Blockchain For Copyright And Intellectual Property With Roanie Levy Jul 29, 2022

How will blockchain technology change the way creatives register copyright, as well as monetize their work? Roanie Levy explains how blockchain can solve the attribution problem, and how smart contracts will allow new business models with ownership of digital assets in web 3. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a […]

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Writing A Bestseller With A.G. Riddle Jul 25, 2022

How can you lean into your strengths as a writer to find the genre — and the business model — that suits you best? A.G. Riddle talks about his writing process, his publishing choices, and how he's planning to pivot into the next phase of his career. In the intro, I talk about my experience […]

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Reach: Create The Biggest Audience For Your Book With Becky Robinson Jul 18, 2022

Tools and tactics may change, but the principles of book marketing remain the same whatever the situation. Becky Robinson gives advice on how to reach readers and market your books for the long term. In the intro, The Things You Think Matter — Don’t [Ryan Holiday]; Boost Your Backlist [ALLi]; Craving Independence [The Bookseller]; 21st […]

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Writing A Novel Will Change Your Life. Audiobook Introduction Of How To Write A Novel. Jul 15, 2022

How To Write a Novel: From Idea to Book is out now if you buy direct from my store, www.CreativePennBooks.com for ebook, audiobook, paperback, or workbook editions. It will be out everywhere on your favorite store in your preferred format from 13 August 2022. More details and links here. In today's special inbetweenisode, I share […]

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Writing For The Long-Term With Tess Gerritsen Jul 11, 2022

How can you write a series which keeps your readers engaged, while still keeping your creative spark alive? How can you sustain a writing career for the long term? With Tess Gerritsen. In the intro, The Creator Economy report [The Tilt]; Publisher Rocket tutorial. Today's show is sponsored by IngramSpark, who I use to print […]

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Publishing Special Print Editions And Crowdfunding with John Bond and Chris Wold from White Fox Jul 08, 2022

Print on demand makes it easy to sell print books without the hassle of storage and shipping — but it's limited to what the established POD printers allow. What if you want to do a special print run, either for a crowdfunding project, or because you want higher quality print production with extras? White Fox […]

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Different Kinds Of Editing, And How To Find An Editor With Kristen Tate Jul 04, 2022

What are the different types of editing? How can you find and work effectively with the best editor for your book? What are some editing tips to watch out for in your fiction or non-fiction manuscript? With Kristen Tate from The Blue Garret. In the intro, hiring virtual assistants [ALLi]; and I'm recording my audiobook […]

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Writing Twists And Marketing As A Traditionally Published Author With Clare Mackintosh Jun 27, 2022

How can you write twists that surprise a reader? How can you market your books effectively as a traditionally published author? Clare Mackintosh talks about her creative process, and how she works with her publisher to reach more readers. In the intro, Kate Bush is “the world’s biggest independent artist” right now and more on […]

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Writing With Artificial Intelligence With Andrew Mayne Jun 24, 2022

What is GPT-3 and how can writers use it responsibly as part of their creative process? How can we approach AI tools with curiosity, rather than fear? Thriller author Andrew Mayne talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, I mention the discussion about whether Google’s language model, LaMDA, could be sentient [The Verge]; […]

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Selling Books Direct on Shopify with Katie Cross Jun 20, 2022

How can you sell books direct to your readers for all formats without dealing with the pain of shipping print books? How can you automate sales with email? How can you earn 80-90% of the sales price and have it go into your bank account in days or even hours, instead of months? Katie Cross […]

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Kickstarter And Multiple Streams Of Non-Fiction Income With Bryan Cohen Jun 13, 2022

How can you manage a successful Kickstarter campaign without burning out? How can you expand into multiple streams of income? Bryan Cohen talks about crowdfunding, changes in his business model, and more. In the intro, 10th year of double-digit audiobook growth [Publishing Perspectives]; Spotify's plans for audiobook expansion [Spotify]; Free webinars for audiobook month [FindawayVoices]; […]

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How To Get Your Self-Published Book Into Libraries With Eric Otis Simmons Jun 06, 2022

How can you make your self-published books available to libraries in every format? How can you pitch librarians so they are interested in ordering your books? Eric Otis Simmons explains how he successfully pitches and sells to libraries throughout the USA. In the intro, Books2Read is useful for sharing wide links; Lindsay Buroker gives long […]

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Build Your Email List With Reader Magnets With Tammi Labrecque May 30, 2022

Why do you need an email list when you can just reach readers with social media? How can you use reader magnets to build your email list? Tammi Labrecque gives beginner and advanced tips for book marketing. In the intro, The state of the Creator Economy report from ConvertKit; and I use and recommend ConvertKit […]

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Writing Characters With Matt Bird May 23, 2022

How do we decide on the hero for our story? How can we write distinctive — but still believable — characters? Matt Bird talks about aspects of writing character. In the intro, a guide to UBLs, Universal Book Links [Draft2Digital]; Your author brand [Ask ALLi with me and Orna Ross]; The Creator Economy in Bath. […]

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An Update On AI-Narrated Audiobooks [May 2022] May 20, 2022

I've been talking about AI narration for several years now, but it's just starting to go mainstream and I've been getting emails every day recently asking the same questions, so this is a round-up article with the most important information. For context, I am an audiobook narrator. I narrate my own non-fiction and short stories. […]

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Writing, Independence, And Selling Books Direct With Derek Sivers May 16, 2022

Why is writing so important? How can we pursue true independence as authors? How can we stay open to technological change while still focusing on the fundamentals of craft? Derek Sivers talks about these things and more. In the intro, How to know if you are putting too much pressure on yourself [Holly Worton]; Breaking […]

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Financial And Tax Implications Of NFTs With Joe David, Crypto Accountant May 13, 2022

If you want to create, sell, buy, or trade NFTs, you need to understand the financial and tax implications. In this interview, Joe David explains the important aspects of blockchain assets and cryptocurrency. [Disclaimer: This is not financial or legal advice. This is just a conversation based on our interest and experience. Please consult a […]

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Writing A Successful Crime Thriller Series With Angela Marsons May 09, 2022

In this inspirational interview, crime writer Angela Marsons talks about how she overcame years of rejection and broke out of societal expectations to reach writing and publishing success. She also talks about tips for writing a long-running crime series, and how she weaves her home of the Black Country into her stories. In the intro, […]

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Tiny Business, Big Money With Elaine Pofeldt May 02, 2022

How can you make more money without growing the size of your business? What systems and mindset do you need to focus on in order to leverage your limited time? Elaine Pofeldt talks about Tiny Business, Big Money in this interview. In the intro, Google Play Books opens up their AI narration for audiobooks; thoughts […]

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7 Figure Fiction With Theodora Taylor Apr 25, 2022

How can you hook readers into your story by using universal human desires and motivations? How can you write what you love, run your author business your way, and still maintain the ambition for a 7-figure author business? Theodora Taylor gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, self-publishing predictions for the 2020s [ALLi]; […]

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Creating A Fictional World In Web 3 With Rae Wojcik and Stephen Poynter Apr 22, 2022

Why are digital scarcity and ownership so important to the business model of creators in web 3? How can an author use a wider fictional world for creative and business goals? Rae and Stephen talk about why creators need web 3 and their fantasy universe, SitkaWorld. In the intro, I mention the Creatokia podcast with […]

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From Big Idea To Book With Jessie Kwak Apr 18, 2022

How can you turn one idea into a short story or expand it into a novel? How can you find a writing process that brings you joy for the long term? Jessie Kwak talks about writing craft tips in this interview. In the intro, I comment on Andy Jassy's letter to shareholders and the importance […]

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Creating And Selling Books For Children With Daniel Miller Apr 11, 2022

How can you write a book that children will love? How can you reach schools and libraries with your books? What might you be leaving on the table in terms of revenue in your author business? Daniel Miller shares his tips, and we also discuss the potential opportunities in his business model. In the intro, […]

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Intuitive Editing With Tiffany Yates Martin Apr 04, 2022

How can you create distance from your manuscript in order to see it as a reader does and edit effectively? What are some of the biggest issues with editing a manuscript? How can you edit on a budget? Tiffany Yates Martin talks all about editing in this interview. In the intro, 10 years of the […]

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Kickstarter For Authors With Monica Leonelle Mar 28, 2022

Would you like to successfully crowdfund your book on Kickstarter? Monica Leonelle shares practical and mindset tips for creating the right kind of project, as well as mistakes to avoid, and how to satisfy fans — and make money with your books. Monica and I recorded this before Brandon Sanderson's epic Kickstarter which has raised […]

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The Legal Side Of Intellectual Property, NFTs, and DAOs With Kathryn Goldman Mar 25, 2022

How can you future-proof your author career by being careful with the publishing clauses you sign? Why are NFTs so interesting for intellectual property? How might DAOs help authors with estate planning? Copyright and trademark attorney Kathryn Goldman talks about these things and more. In the intro, I talk about my art NFTs [JFPenn & […]

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Your Story Matters With Nikesh Shukla Mar 21, 2022

How do we tell the deeper story that matters in a way that engages readers? How can we tackle the inner critic, self-censorship and fear of judgment? And does social media actually sell books? Nikesh Shukla talks about why Your Story Matters and gives his writing tips. In the intro, Amazon opens up Ads to […]

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Different Ways Of Publishing Through Substack And NFTs With Elle Griffin Mar 18, 2022

What if the traditional publishing model is not the best way to publish a book in a digital age? What if publishing it as an ebook on Amazon is not the best way, either? Elle Griffin questions the established ways of publishing a book and explains how she is using SubStack and NFTs for her […]

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Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash. NFTs For Authors [Audio] With Joanna Penn Mar 16, 2022

I've spent the last 15 years building an author business on Web 2 — digital publishing, blogging and podcasting, social media, and more. But as Web 3 begins to emerge through blockchain, NFTs, AI, and the metaverse, I want to make sure I still have a thriving business over the next 15 years. NFTs are an […]

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Improve Your Creativity With Dan Holloway Mar 14, 2022

How can we improve our creativity and release our self-censorship to write more freely? Dan Holloway talks about aspects of creativity as well as physical challenges, neurodiversity, and how technology might augment us in this interview. In the intro, thoughts on Brandon Sanderson's Kickstarter [Kris Rusch]; Guide to Multiple Streams of Income [Self Publishing Advice]; Thoughts […]

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Dealing With Self-Doubt And Writer’s Block With Dharma Kelleher Mar 07, 2022

How can we overcome self-doubt to write the books we really want to? How can we move past writer's block? How can we reshape our definition of success and return to the joy of writing? Dharma Kelleher talks about the author mindset and more. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson's Kickstarter, Bookstore consolidation [The Guardian]; Amazon […]

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Pivoting On The Creative Journey With Johnny B Truant Feb 28, 2022

The creative journey is often a winding path to success, but our experiences along the way can enrich our writing and help us develop a unique author voice. Johnny B Truant talks about his journey from scientist to non-fiction/self-help, to over 100 books and a TV show based on his novels. In the intro, What […]

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Writing Tips: Lessons Learned From Rewriting My First Novel Over A Decade Later Feb 25, 2022

In January 2022, I re-edited my first novel, Stone of Fire, which I started during NaNoWriMo in 2009 and published in April 2011. In this episode, I explain why and how I re-edited the book, as well as some lessons learned from revisiting my writer self of over a decade ago. This episode includes: Why […]

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Tips For Indie Author Success With Craig Martelle Feb 21, 2022

It's never too late to start writing and there are many pro writers ahead of you on the path lead the way. Craig Martelle shares tips on writing, self-publishing, and book marketing, as well as how he believes in the rising tide that lifts all boats, and how helping each other is the best way […]

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Draft2Digital Acquires Smashwords. The Opportunities Ahead For Wide Publishing With Mark Coker And Kevin Tumlinson Feb 18, 2022

Smashwords was the original distribution service for indie authors and Mark Coker has been an advocate for wide publishing for over 14 years. Draft2Digital has been a fantastic service for indies over the last decade, moving into new markets, providing great tools, and helping authors sell more books. On Feb 8, 2022, Draft2Digital announced they […]

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Self-Publishing In Jamaica And The Caribbean And The Importance Of Diverse Voices With C. Ruth Taylor Feb 14, 2022

The self-publishing movement is just getting started in Jamaica and the Caribbean islands, and authors are discovering they can tell their stories in their own way. C. Ruth Taylor talks about how she became an authorpreneur and why she believes in an indie-first, empowering ecosystem. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires Smashwords [D2D; Mark Coker]; Impact […]

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Book Marketing Tips For The Long Term With John Kremer Feb 07, 2022

John Kremer's 1001 Ways to Market Your Book was the first book I ever bought on marketing way back when I started self-publishing in 2008. He has revised it several times since and is still a prolific content creator around book marketing. I'm thrilled to discuss long-term book marketing for authors in this interview. In […]

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The Creative Potential Of NFTs For Authors With J. Thorn And Joanna Penn Feb 04, 2022

J. Thorn and I are both authors and passionate about helping writers find new ways to create, collaborate, reach fans, and make more money in the Creator Economy. We're also both excited about the creative and financial possibilities of emerging blockchain technology, including NFTs. In this discussion, we cover: Explaining NFTs for non-technical people. Some […]

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Episode 600: Thoughts On Writing Craft, Publishing, Marketing, Mindset, And The Author Business With Joanna Penn Jan 31, 2022

Welcome to episode 600! I’m doing a solo show today, answering some questions from my recent podcast survey that cover the different aspects of the author life. From episode 1 to episode 600 I recorded episode 1 in March 2009 when I lived in Ipswich, just outside Brisbane, Australia. I phoned up a bestselling author […]

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Take Back Your Book: An Author’s Guide to Rights Reversion and Publishing on Your Terms With Katlyn Duncan Jan 24, 2022

How can you take back your rights when publishing conditions change? How can you make sure you sign contracts that make it easier for rights reversion in the future? Katlyn Duncan talks about these things and more. In the intro, the splits in indie publishing [Kris Writes]; Burnout and Writer's Block [6 Figure Authors]; Publisher […]

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The Craft And Business Of Poetry With Rishi Dastidar Jan 17, 2022

How do you turn an idea into a poem? What are the publishing options for poets, and how does marketing work? Rishi Dastidar talks about his life in poetry and provides tips for taking your creative work further. In the intro, What Readers Want in 2022 [ALLi]; Ads for Authors (affiliate link); Submission on AI […]

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A Writer’s Guide To The End Of Self-Doubt With William Kenower Jan 10, 2022

How can we recognize self-doubt and create alongside it as part of the author journey? How can we write with confidence and double down on what we love the most? William Kenower talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, planning for 2022 [Ask ALLi]; Your publishing options [6 Figure Authors]; Need an audiobook […]

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Improve Your Sleep And Creativity With Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci Jan 03, 2022

If the pandemic has affected your sleep, you are not alone! If you want to sort out your sleep issues and improve your creativity — and your life — as we head into a new year, this episode with Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci will help. In the intro, publishing industry trends for 2022 [Written Word […]

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My Creative And Business Goals For 2022 With Joanna Penn Jan 01, 2022

“We make plans, God laughs.” The old Yiddish proverb will no doubt stand true for another year, but I just can’t help myself! I need to make plans to have something to aim for, but given how 2021 didn’t turn out as expected, for 2022 I will hold my plans and goals loosely and won’t […]

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Not Quite The Year We Hoped For. Review Of My 2021 Creative Business Goals Dec 27, 2021

As we all look back at the past year, it feels like it’s flown by — but also that time has warped in a way and it feels like we’ve been stuck in this pandemic for much longer than we expected. So here’s my 2021 year in review and an update on whether I managed […]

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How To Find The Time To Write And Make The Most Of Your Writing Time With Joanna Penn Dec 20, 2021

Our publishing, marketing and author business tasks are important — but at the end of the day, it all comes down to writing. We are authors. We are writers. So as we head toward a new year, how can you find the time to write? How can you make the most of your writing time? […]

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Story Or Die With Lisa Cron Dec 13, 2021

Why is story so important — no matter what genre we write? How can we use emotion to hook readers — and also tap into what matters in our own lives? Lisa Cron talks about these questions and more in this discussion about Story or Die. In the intro, Ultimate Guide to Copyright [ALLi]; How […]

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Writing Hooks And Improving Your Fiction Book Description With Michaelbrent Collings Dec 06, 2021

Readers buy or borrow your book based on your cover and book description, so how can we make sure the description is the best it can be? How can we make readers want to click Buy Now and start reading immediately? Michaelbrent Collings provides useful tips — and tough love! — for authors who struggle […]

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Patience, Ambition, And Financial Independence With MK Williams Nov 29, 2021

How can you cultivate patience for your long-term author career? How can you figure out your personal, creative and financial goals and make choices toward them? MK Williams talks about these questions, as well as podcast marketing and turning a blog or transcript into a book. In the intro, my reflections on the UK FutureBook […]

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Digital Narration With AI Voices With Taylan From DeepZen Nov 26, 2021

Is digital narration with AI voices good enough for non-fiction or fiction audiobooks? Can human narrators benefit through voice licensing? What are the options for sales and distribution? Taylan Kamis from Deep Zen explains digital narration for audiobooks, and I share some samples from my digitally narrated books through Deep Zen. Taylan Kamis is the […]

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Short Stories As The Basis To An Award-Winning Author Career With Alan Baxter Nov 22, 2021

How do you know when an idea is a short story, a novella, or a full-length novel? How can you turn one story into multiple streams of income? Alan Baxter talks about a long-term craft-centered approach to the author career and how his short stories have won him multiple awards. In the intro, State of […]

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Can Stories Save The World? Writing For The Environment With Denise Baden Nov 19, 2021

The relentless news about climate change can leave us despondent — but what if we can use fiction to help people with positive ideas of what the future could look like and the actions we can take to change things? Denise Baden talks about the power of eco-fiction and explains the Green Stories Novel Prize, […]

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Big Ideas In Technology And Publishing With Michael Bhaskar Nov 15, 2021

With so many technological advances in recent years, can publishing keep up? Michael Bhaskar and I discuss AI tools for writing, blockchain and NFTs, digital narration, and impacts on intellectual property rights licensing in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Spotify acquires Findaway and my thoughts on what it means for authors, narrators, and rights-holders […]

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Amazon Keywords And Atticus For Writing And Book Formatting With Dave Chesson Nov 12, 2021

Dave Chesson provides many useful tools and information for authors at Kindlepreneur and he has recently launched Atticus, writing and formatting software that will output both ebook and print formats, as well as providing collaboration and ARC management tools. Dave Chesson is the founder of Kindlepreneur and producer of Publisher Rocket and Atticus, amongst many […]

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Pitching A Book For Film Or TV With Chrissy Metge Nov 08, 2021

What projects are worth pitching for film and TV? What do you need to include in your pitch? Why are there more opportunities for writers now? Chrissy Metge talks about these questions and more. In the intro, the US Justice Department sues to block the Penguin Random House acquisition of Simon & Schuster [The Guardian]; […]

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Creatokia. The World Of Digital Originals (NFTs) With Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann Nov 05, 2021

Creatokia is one of the first book-specific NFT platforms and in this interview, co-founders Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann explain what NFTs are and why they are an opportunity for authors and rights-holders. They are also the co-founders of Bookwire, which already provides digital publishing solutions for the publishing industry. After the interview, I reflect on […]

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Writing And Podcasting Poetry With Mark McGuinness Nov 01, 2021

How can we balance creative passion projects with work that brings in an income? What are the different types of poetry and how can we bring them alive through the spoken word? Mark McGuinness talks about how poetry is at the center of his universe, fueling his creativity as well as informing his coaching business. […]

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The Ownership Economy. Business Models Around NFTs With Jessica Artemisia Oct 28, 2021

What are the different ways that authors can use NFTs to reach readers and earn money with blockchain technology? How can we address the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that is inevitable when faced with new technological options? Jessica Artemisia Mathieu explains some of the business models with NFTs. In the intro, and in a longer […]

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Who Killed My Mother? Writing And Podcasting True Crime Memoir With Kory Shrum Oct 25, 2021

On July 4, 2020, Kory Shrum received two phone calls. One from her uncle, saying her mother was found dead in her bedroom from an overdose. A second from a homicide detective saying he believes it was murder—and her uncle is the suspect. In this interview, Kory talks about how she turned her trauma into […]

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How to Research Your Book With Vikki Carter, The Author’s Librarian Oct 18, 2021

How do you research a book in the most appropriate way? How can you keep track of your sources and attribute them correctly, as well as avoiding inadvertent plagiarism? How can you get your book/s into libraries? Vikki Carter talks about all these questions and more. In the intro, Has Amazon Changed Fiction? [New Republic]; […]

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Build Better Worlds: Anthropology For Writers With Michael Kilman Oct 11, 2021

How can anthropology — the study of human cultures — teach us to build richer and more convincing worlds for our stories? What questions do we need to ask of our characters and settings to bring them alive? Michael Kilman talks about how anthropology can help with world-building in this episode. In the intro, the […]

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How To Use Mystery To Hook Your Readers With Jonah Lehrer Oct 04, 2021

How can you use elements of mystery to hook your readers, regardless of the genre you write? How can you make sure your writing process prevents errors or plagiarism? Jonah Lehrer covers these aspects and more. In the intro, KDP Print available in hardback; Bookvolts book-specific NFT platform [Medium]; Books for writers in the NaNoWriMo […]

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Opportunities For Audiobooks And Introducing The Findaway Voices Marketplace With Will Dages Sep 29, 2021

How can you expand your creative and financial opportunities with audiobooks and podcasting? Will Dages from Findaway Voices talks about options as well as introducing the new Marketplace. Will Dages is the head of Findaway Voices, which helps authors produce and distribute audiobooks to a global network of platforms and listeners. You can listen above […]

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Co-Writing The Relaxed Author with Mark Leslie Lefebvre Sep 27, 2021

How can you be a more relaxed author when there is always so much more to do? How can you co-write a book and retain different voices in written text as well as audio? Mark Leslie Lefebvre and I discuss how we co-wrote The Relaxed Author and how we're publishing and marketing it. In the […]

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Writing And Producing Audio Drama And Podcast Fiction With Sarah Werner Sep 20, 2021

The opportunities for creation and marketing in audio format continue to expand and the lines are blurring between audiobooks, podcasts and other forms of audio storytelling. In this episode, Sarah Werner talks about writing for audio first and the challenges of full-cast audio drama and podcast fiction. In the intro, problems with publishing distribution and […]

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Travel Writing With Jeremy Bassetti Sep 13, 2021

What are the different types of travel books and how can you blend them within the genre? How can we tackle our imposter syndrome when writing in a genre we love? Jeremy Bassetti explores these questions and more in today's show. In the intro, my 10-year author entrepreneur lessons learned; the different stages of an […]

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Author Mindset: Strengths For Writers With Becca Syme Sep 06, 2021

We all have different strengths as writers, but sometimes we don't know what they are. Or we get frustrated because we try to succeed at something that just won't work for our personality. In this interview, Becca Syme explains how our strengths can help us and how to ‘question the premise' whenever we face different […]

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Narrative Design In The Gaming Industry With Edwin McRae Aug 30, 2021

How can you design a story that branches into multiple directions? How does writing for games help with writing a novel? Ed McRae explains narrative design and the opportunities for writers in the gaming industry. In the intro, ‘the inevitable decline of open platforms' [Seth Godin]; pros and cons of different print distribution models [Adam […]

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Stories Are What Save Us: Writing About Trauma With David Chrisinger Aug 23, 2021

Writing can help us process trauma — whatever that means for you — as well as help others through our words. In this episode, David Chrisinger explains why stories can save us. In the intro, thoughts on print distribution [Jane Friedman]; Hachette's acquisition of Workman and why backlist is key [The New Publishing Standard]; Your […]

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Worldbuilding With Angeline Trevena Aug 16, 2021

If you write fiction in any genre, you need to build your world. Whether it's the cozy coffee shop in your romance, or a complete fantasy world, or a post-apocalyptic wasteland, world-building can strengthen your plot and bring depth and conflict to your characters. Angeline Trevena gives plenty of tips in this episode. In the […]

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The Metaverse For Authors And Publishing. Web 3.0, VR, AR, And The Spatial Web Aug 12, 2021

Web 2.0 enabled the digital revolution that transformed the possibilities for authors and creators, so how will Web 3.0 transform it again over the next decade? This is a special futurist in-betweenisode on what many are calling Web 3.0 which encompasses virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), the metaverse, and the spatial web. It’s intended […]

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Lessons Learned From A Decade Of Self-Publishing And Marketing Children’s Books With Karen Inglis Aug 09, 2021

Taking the long-term view plus taking advantage of new marketing tactics can help you sell more books, as Karen Inglis talks about in this interview. In the intro, Pearson launches a subscription app [The Bookseller]; A+ content could help you sell more books [The Hotsheet]; Takeaways from Podcast Movement 2021 around the audio eco-system and […]

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Bringing Old World Publishing Skills To New World Creators With John Bond From White Fox Aug 06, 2021

What has changed in publishing over the last decade? How can a reputable author services company help you achieve your publishing goals? In this interview with John Bond from White Fox, we discuss aspects of the publishing journey. If you are considering working with an author services company or publishing partner, check whether they are […]

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Rediscover Your Creative Free Spirit With Peleg Top Aug 02, 2021

How can you rediscover your creative free spirit if you're feeling burned out? How can you combine creativity, spirituality and money to experience more in your author life? Peleg Top talks about these things and more in today's interview. In the intro, adding A+ content to your Amazon book pages; Audible launches Premium Plus in […]

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Writing And Publishing Literary Fiction With Roz Morris Jul 26, 2021

How do you know when the seed of an idea is enough for a novel? What makes literary fiction different from other genres? Roz Morris shares her writing process from idea to the publication of Ever Rest. In the intro, my experience of COVID, my interview on Story of a Storyteller, and A Mouthful of […]

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Gentle Book Marketing With Sarah Santacroce Jul 19, 2021

Can book marketing really be gentle, sustainable — and even enjoyable? Sarah Santacroce talks about how to reframe marketing and gives ideas for marketing your books. In the intro, Kindle Vella launches in the US [The Next Web]; A UK report calls for a reset in music streaming revenues to ensure fairer pay for artists […]

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Co-Creating With AI Writing And Image Tools With Shane Neeley Jul 16, 2021

How can co-creating with AI tools enhance your writing process — and make it more fun? Shane Neeley talks about his AI-augmented writing and visual art creations. This futurist show is sponsored by my Patrons at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. If you find it useful and you don't want to support every month, you could Buy Me A […]

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Writing And Marketing Crime Fiction With Ed James Jul 12, 2021

What are the key elements of a good crime novel? How can you reboot your author career through publishing and marketing changes? Ed James shares insights on his writing craft and author business. In the intro, Jeff Bezos steps down as CEO of Amazon [The Verge]; Why this is the best time to be in […]

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From Self-Published Book To A Life-Changing Health Movement With Gin Stephens Jul 05, 2021

Your personal story can change other people's lives, but only if you get your words into the world. In this episode, Gin Stephens shares how she self-published her first book on intermittent fasting and went on to get a traditional deal for more books, and lead a community of people into a healthier way of […]

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Writing Humor And Insights From A Long Term Creative Career With Scott Dikkers Jun 28, 2021

How can you write funny characters and make readers laugh with your writing? Plus the importance of long-term thinking and multiple streams of income when it comes to a career in comedy (or any creative field!). Scott Dikkers talks about these things and more in this episode. In the intro, Draft2Digital announces distribution to library […]

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Writing Fiction With AI. Sudowrite With Amit Gupta Jun 24, 2021

What if you could use an AI writing tool to help you come up with ideas for sensory detail, character descriptions, story twists, and more? Amit Gupta explains how authors can use Sudowrite in this episode. In the intro, I explain how I'm using Sudowrite, plus AI for Authors: Practical and Ethical Guidelines from the […]

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Writing Non-Fiction With Personal Stories with Natalie Sisson Jun 21, 2021

How can you write a useful self-help book with actionable tips, but also bring it to life with personal stories? How can you use a book title to attract your target market? Natalie Sisson shares her experience in writing her latest non-fiction book. In the intro, 94% of the world’s internet users are not in the USA […]

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Embracing Multi-Passionate Creativity And Running A Small Press With Jessica Bell Jun 14, 2021

Some say you can only be successful if you focus on one thing, but what if you are a multi-passionate creative? What if your Muse is inspired to write song lyrics as well as poetry, non-fiction as well as novels and heart-wrenching memoir? Jessica Bell manages to juggle many aspects of a creative career and […]

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NFTs for Authors And Publishing with John Fox Jun 10, 2021

Why are NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens) so exciting for authors and the publishing industry? How will they generate more streams of revenue for creators? What are some ways that authors could use them? All this and more in today's interview. I also mention Bloomberg's article on how NFTs shift power to artists in the intro. Thanks […]

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Transitioning From An In-Person Business To Online Multiple Streams Of Income With Guy Windsor Jun 07, 2021

The pandemic has favoured digital business models, but how can you transition to online sales when you run an in-person business? How can you move from one stream of income to multiple streams? Guy Windsor has lots of ideas for your author business in this fascinating interview. In the intro, fear-based decision making [Kris Rusch]; […]

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How To Edit Your Book And The Different Kinds Of Professional Editors With Natasa Lekic May 31, 2021

How you can prepare your book before sending it to an editor? What are the different types of edits and editors you can use for different phases of your writing process? When is editing software worth using and when do you really need human eyes on your work? All this and more in the interview […]

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Discovery Writing And Sustaining A Long-Term Writing Career With Patricia McLinn May 24, 2021

What is discovery writing (sometimes known as pantsing)? How can you write a novel with structure if you don't plot in advance? How can you build a writing career for the long-term? All this and more with Patricia McLinn. In the intro, “98 percent of the books that publishers released in 2020 sold fewer than […]

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The Challenges Of A First Novel With James Blatch May 16, 2021

What are the challenges of writing a first novel — even when you think you know what you're doing? How do you define success when you are just starting out on the author journey? James Blatch talks about these questions and more. In the intro, thoughts from attending the Audio Publishers Association conference, and audiobooks […]

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The Heroine’s Journey with Gail Carriger May 10, 2021

What is the heroine's journey and how can it help you write a story that readers will love? Gail Carriger shares her writing tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing house mergers [Agent Kristin Nelson]; KDP Print in Australia; Bookwire announces a new NFT marketplace for the publishing and creator industry [Publishing Perspectives]. Plus, […]

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The AI-Powered Micro-Business with Ash Fontana May 07, 2021

Artificial Intelligence is already part of our lives in the tools and services we use every day. As AI development accelerates, how can authors and small businesses use it as leverage to expand income and opportunities? Ash Fontana gives some ideas in this interview on The AI-First Company. In the intro, How GPT-3 is quietly […]

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Tips For Translation, Self-Publishing, And Marketing In Foreign Languages With Nadine Mutas May 03, 2021

The book market is saturated for certain genres in digitally mature markets like the US and UK, but readers in other markets are hungry for books. In this episode, Nadine Mutas talks about self-publishing in German, French and Italian and her tips for finding a translator and marketing the books once they're available. In the […]

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Mind Management, Not Time Management With David Kadavy Apr 26, 2021

How do we make time for original insights that set our creative work apart? How do we reframe productivity so it serves our career for the long term? David Kadavy talks about mind management, not time management in this interview. In the intro, Jane Friedman reports on how the pandemic is affecting book publishing, lessons […]

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How To Make A Living With Your Writing: First Principles Apr 22, 2021

If you want to make a living with your writing, you will need the right mindset, as well as the practical skills to write, publish and market your books. In this excerpt from How to Make a Living with Your Writing Third Edition: Turn Your Words into Multiple Streams of Income, I go into the […]

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Global, Wide Self-Publishing With Mark Leslie Lefebvre Apr 19, 2021

How can you reach every reader on every platform in a global, distributed reading environment? How can you take a long-term, relaxed attitude to your author career? Mark Leslie Lefebvre talks about self-publishing wide in this interview. In the intro, KDP introduces Kindle Vella, a new serial reading platform, perhaps a response to China Literature's […]

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Writing, Publishing And Marketing Books For Children With Crystal Swain-Bates Apr 12, 2021

How can you write a children's story with a message without being preachy? How can you find and work effectively with an illustrator? How can you market your book to kids in schools? Crystal Swain Bates gives her tips on writing, publishing and marketing books for children, as well as how we can make books […]

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Publish Wide, Sell More Books And AI for Voice. Google Play Books With Ryan Dingler Apr 08, 2021

How can you sell more ebooks and audiobooks on Google Play Books to the global market? How can you optimize your books so they are more likely to be discovered? How might auto-narrated audiobooks help expand the market? All this and more in today's interview with Ryan Dingler from Google. Ryan Dingler is a product […]

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Writing Dialogue And Character Voice With Jeff Elkins Apr 05, 2021

How can we write authentic and engaging character dialogue? How can we incorporate sub-text that deepens our writing? Jeff Elkins, The Dialogue Doctor explains more in this interview. In the intro, the new AudibleGate site; scammers using big publisher names [Writer Beware]; Vellum update for Ingram PDF [Vellum software; my tools and tutorials] ; Do BookBub […]

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Fix Your Writing Tics With Chris Banks From ProWriting Aid Apr 02, 2021

What is your writer's tic and how can you fix it with Pro Writing Aid? Why are commas such an issue for writers? (and my own personal nemesis!) How can AI tools enhance our creativity and usher in a new abundant future for writers? I discuss all this and more with Chris Banks from Pro […]

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What Can Authors Learn From Digital Changes In The Music Industry? With Tristra Newyear Yeager Mar 28, 2021

What can authors learn from the digital changes in the music industry? In this interview, Tristra Newyear Yeager talks about the empowerment of the indie musician, multiple streams of income, and the uses of blockchain and AI. In the intro, I report back on attending SXSW and some other online conferences on lessons learned from […]

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How To Write A Cozy Mystery With Debbie Young Mar 22, 2021

Why is cozy mystery such a popular genre? What are the important tropes? What are the best ways to market a cozy series? Debbie Young talks about these aspects and more in this interview. In the intro, K-lytics genre reports; Findaway Voices Headphone Report 2020; Edison Research Infinite Dial report on audio; 16 tips on […]

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Publishing On Kobo Writing Life With Tara Cremin Mar 15, 2021

How can you reach more readers worldwide and sell more books on Kobo? What are the advantages to publishing direct with Kobo Writing Life? Tara Cremin gives her tips in today's show. In the intro, the launch of HelloBooks.com; Twitter Spaces for audio-only social [The Verge]; Blockchain, smart contracts, and NFTs; Mapwalker Trilogy available now; […]

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Copyright Protection, Smart Contracts, Digital Scarcity And NFTs For Authors. Blockchain For The Publishing Industry With Simon-Pierre Marion Mar 12, 2021

Blockchain technology offers exciting opportunities for authors and the publishing industry. In this interview, Simon-Pierre Marion and I discuss copyright protection, smart contracts, estate management and faster, more transparent payments, as well as how digital scarcity could expand the revenue potential in the digital supply chain. Plus, I add some extra commentary on the potential […]

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Warrior Of The Blank Page. Writing, Marketing And Mindset With Steven Pressfield Mar 08, 2021

How can you write through self-doubt? How can you break through Resistance to write and market your work? How do you decide which book to write next? Steven Pressfield talks about being a warrior of the blank page, how he deals with Resistance around writing and marketing, as well as self-doubt and other aspects of […]

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How To Write Authentic Crime Fiction With Patrick O’Donnell From Cops and Writers Mar 01, 2021

How can you write nuanced police characters in your crime novels? What are some under-used crimes that might make interesting plots? Patrick O'Donnell talks about Cops and Writers in the interview today. In the intro, thoughts on a digital sales webinar from Ingram Content; the Immersive Books & Media 2020 Research Report [Publishers Weekly]; how […]

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The AI-Augmented Author. Writing With GPT-3 With Paul Bellow Feb 26, 2021

How can authors use AI writing tools like GPT-3? What's the best way to prompt the models to output usable text? Are there copyright issues with this approach? Author Paul Bellow explains how he is using the tools and how authors need to embrace the possibilities rather than reject them. In the intro, I talk […]

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Writing Tips: How To Structure And Write A Series With Sara Rosett Feb 22, 2021

Why is a series the not-so-secret weapon for making a decent living with your writing? What's the difference between episodic series and one with a clear arc across the books? What are some of the best ways to market a series? Sara Rosett talks about all these things and more. In the intro, Facebook shuts […]

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How To Write A Non-Fiction Book Proposal With Alison Jones Feb 15, 2021

What makes a non-fiction book stand out from the crowd? What are the essential elements of a non-fiction book proposal if you want to pitch agents and/or publishers, or if you want to prepare for effective self-publishing? In this interview, Alison Jones goes into detail on these things and how the publishing industry has changed […]

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The Artist In The Machine: The World Of AI-Powered Creativity With Arthur I. Miller Feb 12, 2021

Can artificial intelligence augment our human creativity? Will AI ever be able to create art on its own and would we even be able to appreciate it? In this interview, Arthur I. Miller talks about the nature of creativity and The Artist in the Machine. In the intro, I mention my list of AI writing […]

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Value Your Books For The Long Term With David Farland Feb 08, 2021

You are not writing one book. You are creating an intellectual property asset that can make you money for the rest of your life and 50-70 years after you die. In this interview, David Farland talks about the importance of valuing your writing, and how to keep a long-term mindset as an author. In the […]

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Stop Worrying, Start Selling. Change Your Author Mindset With Sarah Painter Feb 01, 2021

How can we reframe book marketing as a creative and essential part of the author life? How can we manage fear and self-doubt in order to write? How can we embrace our ambition and aim high while still managing the day to day writing life? Sarah Painter talks about all this and more in this […]

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Turn Your Author Failures, Setbacks, And Mistakes Into Success With Joanna Penn And Orna Ross Jan 25, 2021

We all experience failures, setbacks, and mistakes on the author journey — but if we learn from them, they can be the basis for our greatest success. In this episode, Orna Ross and Joanna Penn share their biggest mistakes, failures, and setbacks as well as lessons learned. This interview originally went out on the Ask […]

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A Techno-Optimist’s View Of The Creative Future For Authors. Joanna Penn On The Kindle Chronicles Podcast Jan 22, 2021

It can be daunting to think about the future for authors and publishing when converging technologies are expanding into the realm of creativity, but there are many opportunities ahead — if you engage with the tools rather than run from them. In this interview, Len Edgerly interviews Joanna Penn about Artificial Intelligence and Virtual Worlds: […]

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Co-writing With Artificial Intelligence With Yudhanjaya Wijeratne Jan 18, 2021

We all use tools as part of the writing process. Other books and internet resources for research, Scrivener for writing the first draft, and a computer for typing or dictating into, as well as editing tools like ProWritingAid. But what if you could use AI tools to help inspire the writing process? In this episode, […]

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It’s Never Too Late. How To Achieve Your Goals At Any Age With Kate Champion Jan 11, 2021

If you feel like it's too late to achieve your goals — whether that’s because of your age or your fear of technology or you’re late to the indie author world — or anything else, today's interview with Kate Champion will help you reboot your mindset for the year ahead. In the intro, thoughts on […]

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How To Be A Healthy Writer In 2021 With Dr Euan Lawson Jan 04, 2021

Let's make 2021 a healthy, creative year! In today's show, Dr. Euan Lawson talks about ways to improve your physical and mental health, and how it can impact your creativity in a positive way. In the introduction, some thoughts on the year ahead for authors and publishing, including continued expansion to the global, digital, mobile […]

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Creative Business Goals For 2021 With Joanna Penn Jan 01, 2021

I love the new year! As the calendar turns a new page, we get to start again. After a very strange 2020, it feels like hope is in the air, and I'm ready to embark on the next year of my author journey. Are you ready for a fantastic 2021? Here are my creative and […]

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Creative Business Review Of 2020 And Lessons Learned From A Pandemic Year With Joanna Penn Dec 31, 2020

Every year, I set creative, financial and health goals and share them on the blog and the podcast. It helps keep me accountable and focused, although, inevitably things change over the year — this year, things changed across the whole world in the wake of the COVID19 pandemic and we all had to pivot to a […]

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Tips For Your Author Business Plan With Joanna Penn Dec 14, 2020

You are an author. You turn ideas into reality in the shape of a book. You turn the thoughts in your head into valuable intellectual property assets. You understand how powerful the written word can be. Now it's time to use your words to create a business plan to take your writing career to the […]

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From Chaos to Creativity: Productivity For Writers With Jessie Kwak Dec 07, 2020

How do you balance your time between what you have to do and what you want to do? How do you decide what's most important to work on? How do you make the most of the time you have for writing? I talk about productivity for authors and writers with Jessie Kwak. In the intro, […]

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Voice Technologies, Streaming And Subscription Audio In A Time Of Artificial Intelligence (AI) Dec 04, 2020

The audiobook market is currently held back by availability and cost of titles, as well as preference for narrators with different voices. The subscription model and AI voice narration will solve these issues — but we need audio rights licensing reform to make it happen. In this solo show: Streaming and subscription models AI voices […]

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Copyright Law And Blockchain For Authors And Publishers In An Age Of Artificial Intelligence Dec 02, 2020

Should copyright be attributed to original literary and artistic works autonomously generated by AI? How will creators of original material be compensated when their works are used to train natural language generation models? Intellectual property reform in the age of AI is inevitable, and we need our voices to be heard. In this solo show: […]

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Writing In An Age Of Artificial Intelligence (AI) Nov 30, 2020

In this solo episode, I discuss the impact of converging technologies, Artificial Intelligence, Natural Language Generation (NLG) tools like GPT-3, and more on writing, authors, and the publishing industry. My last AI show was in July 2019, 9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence (AI) Will Disrupt Authors and Publishing in the Next 10 Years, and although I’ve […]

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Business Mindset And Pivoting Your Author Career With Holly Worton Nov 23, 2020

How can you prevent self-doubt and fear from blocking your creative expression? What if you've built an audience for your books, but then you want to change direction? I discuss these issues and more with Holly Worton. In the intro, Draft2Digital introduce payment splitting; Long-term and ‘wide' thinking with Sarah Painter on the 6 Figure […]

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YouTube For Authors And Multiple Streams Of Income With Meg LaTorre Nov 16, 2020

How can you use video to attract readers to your books — and create multiple streams of income? Meg La Torre gives some tips for video marketing. In the intro, ACX emails the community apologizing for an incredibly slow production process; but doesn't address the serious issue of returns [Susan May Writer]; ALLi revokes ACX […]

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Networking For Authors With Daniel Parsons Nov 09, 2020

How do you build a network of author friends and peers over the long-term? How can you overcome anxiety about online or in-person events in order to network more effectively? Daniel Parsons and I share tips on networking online and also for physical events post-pandemic. In the intro, new Series management tools from Amazon KDP; […]

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How To Write And Market Books Across Multiple Genres With Wendy H Jones Nov 02, 2020

How do you successfully write and market in multiple genres if you're a multi-passionate creator? How do you manage a hybrid career across traditional and independent publishing? Wendy H. Jones talks about her varied writing career and her tips for book marketing. In the intro, The HotSheet reports from Frankfurt Book Fair with positive […]

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Writing In The Dark. Horror Writing Tips With Tim Waggoner Oct 26, 2020

How do you write your darkness without drowning in it? How do you write an original horror story while still respecting the tropes of the genre? Why are horror writers the nicest people around?! Tim Waggoner gives some craft tips for writing horror, as well as thoughts on the current publishing and TV/film environment. In […]

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Building A Creative Business Brand With Pamela Wilson Oct 19, 2020

How do you build a creative business that you love — and makes you money? Pamela Wilson talks about her non-fiction business model, how to choose a niche, plus how to pivot your brand over time. In the intro, I talk about my pilgrimage walk and how we all need to weigh up risks […]

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Mental Models For Writers And The Empowered Indie Author With Michael LaRonn Oct 12, 2020

Writing is absolutely about the practical step of getting words on the page — but your mindset can make the difference between success and failure, as well as how much you enjoy the author journey. In this interview, Michael La Ronn outlines mental models for writers, facing our fears to break through to creative success, […]

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Outlining Your Novel And Filling The Creative Well With K.M. Weiland Oct 05, 2020

How can you use an outline to improve your book before you start the first draft? How can you use it to play with your creative ideas without feeling hemmed in by the process? In this interview, KM Weiland talks about how to outline your novel as well as thoughts on writer's block, filling the […]

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Starting From Zero And Success With BookBub Ads With David Gaughran Sep 28, 2020

When you've been self-publishing over a decade, it's easy to see how things have changed for indie authors and where the opportunities lie for publishing and marketing our books. In this wide-ranging interview, David Gaughran discusses the shifts in the industry, starting from zero, book marketing tips, and more. In the intro, Audible launches an […]

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Audiobook Narration, Production And Marketing Tips With Derek Doepker Sep 21, 2020

Audiobooks are one of the fastest-growing segments in publishing and the expansion of podcasts onto every major platform means there are more ways to market to audio-first consumers (which increasingly includes me!) In this episode, Derek Doepker gives some tips on why audiobooks are so important as a format, self-narration, working with a narrator, plus, […]

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Publishing Wide For The Win With Erin Wright Sep 14, 2020

Do you want to make your books available to readers in every format, in every online store and library, in every country? If yes, it's time to go wide for the win! In today's episode with Erin Wright, we discuss what ‘going wide' means, why libraries are so important, and tips for publishing wide wherever […]

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Creativity, Business, And Ambition With Emily Kimelman Sep 07, 2020

How can you juggle full-time writing and a family? How can you manage ambition about adventure and travel with a desire to be a 7-figure author? How can you be both creative and a business-person? I talk about all this and more in today's wide-ranging interview with Emily Kimelman. In the introduction, The Authors Guild, […]

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Changes In Ebook Publishing Over The Last Decade And Possible Changes Ahead With Len Edgerly Of The Kindle Chronicles Podcast Aug 30, 2020

The last decade has seen a dramatic change in the publishing industry as ebooks and digital audio have gone from a side note to a huge part of the reader experience — and a significant part of independent author incomes. In this episode, I talk to Len Edgerly from The Kindle Chronicles Podcast which started […]

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How To Write Narrative Non-Fiction With Matt Hongoltz-Hetling Aug 24, 2020

What is narrative non-fiction and how do you write a piece so powerful it is nominated for a Pulitzer? In this interview, Matt Hongoltz-Hetling talks about his process for finding stories worth writing about and how he turns them into award-winning articles. In the intro, I talk about Spotify (possibly) getting into audiobooks and Amazon […]

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How To Reboot A Flagging Author Career With Michaelbrent Collings Aug 17, 2020

What happens when you've written award-winning books, get amazing reviews from readers, and your sales still start a downward spiral? You can give up writing — or you can take a step back, review your catalog, figure out a plan and up-skill, then reboot your author career. In this episode, Michaelbrent Collings shares how he […]

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AI And Creativity Update: A Voice Double Conversation Featuring Joanna Penn And Mark Leslie Lefebvre Aug 13, 2020

In mid-2019, I shared 9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence Might Disrupt Authors and Publishing, and one of those possible disruptions concerned voice technologies, which I also wrote about in Audio for Authors. In 2020, we have seen an acceleration of AI with the release of GPT-3 for natural language processing and generation, as well as […]

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How To Write A Bestseller With Suzy K Quinn Aug 10, 2020

How can you write what you love and still aim for bestseller status? How can you combine craft and business in your writing life? Suzy K Quinn answers these questions and more in this fascinating interview. In the intro, entrepreneur and author Derek Sivers sells $250K worth of ebooks and audiobooks direct from his website […]

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Writing And Business Lessons Learned From 500 Episodes And 11 Years Of The Creative Penn Podcast Aug 03, 2020

It’s episode 500! Time flies indeed. The first episode of The Creative Penn Podcast was released on 15 March 2009. I had a couple of non-fiction books out, the international Kindle had not even launched, and there was no empowered indie author movement as we know it today. I was living in Ipswich, just outside […]

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The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

Transcript of Interview with Jacob Nordby

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into creativity and writing.

One of the things that helped me get started was The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Are you familiar with that work?

I see creativity as our vital spark, as our life force energy, and it's meant to flow in every part of our lives.

What are some of the things in our life or our writing that indicate we might need such a cure?

The cure isn't curing the essence of who we are as humans or creatives. It is curing that connection.

What are some of the creative practices you recommend?

Joanna: Well, since you mentioned journals, maybe talk more about that.

So the three questions are, the first one is, “How do I feel right now?”

We are often quite disassociated from our bodies. We spend so much time up in our heads and in concepts versus what's in reality.

How do you suggest people balance this need to write words for the next book versus journaling for the need of expressing yourself?

I really love to think of journaling more like emotional, mental, spiritual yoga.

I definitely do not journal every day, but it sort of builds up and builds up and builds up, and then I will go to a cafe and I will journal, and all this stuff will come out.

If people feel like they're not very intuitive, how can they tap into that and also find more joy?

Notice throughout the day what synchronicities come up.

I'm very creatively confident now after many years of being a writer, but at the beginning it was like, well, I feel like I should do this thing, but what if I'm wrong?

Fear holds people back.

Then I saw the Kindle, I saw the iPhone, and I saw Americans, and I was like, what if I can use this technology and I don't have to use print books?

They couldn't see how terrified I was.

If you want to change direction, how long does it take? What's the effort involved?

If we're willing to go into that exploration, what we'll find in there is ourselves.

I always talk about it taking five years, so it's kind of good that you put it in that ballpark, too.

I've seen some of them kind of freeze frame there, and they've never been able to move beyond that one thing.

For the last few years, I've been really thinking about how to make sure everything stays fresh and new, rather than go into a rut.

How do we keep things fresh?

I feel like every creative endeavor, anything that's truly original, there is this required uncertainty.

Maybe it is about doing things on the side, whether you love your job or whether you're stuck in a job.

Tell people where can they find you and your books online.

Transcript of Interview with Luke Richardson

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and self-publishing.

How did you then get into indie publishing, as opposed to maybe going traditional?

I came up with that idea based on my travels, based on the things that I've done.

I never tried the traditional route. I was far too impetuous. I wanted to get on with the next book.

You left your job in 2019, and it was 2024 when your income surpassed your old job?

If I wanted to do it as a job, and I wanted this to be my life, I needed to give it space.

I feel like a lot of people coming in don't understand what the job of an author is, or let alone the job of an indie author.

It needs to be something. It needs to pin its colors to the mast.

What's your schedule for putting books out?

My books now are very family friendly. They're very clean.

As a sub-genre, what are the hallmarks of your books and the action adventure thriller genre that you (and I) write in?

They're all based on an ancient legend.

One of the tropes is you have this prologue that takes place in like 5000 BC, and then what happened there relates to the present day when that relic is uncovered.

What purpose does a prologue serve in a book?

A prologue can be foreshadowing.

Is there anything that you say to people to help them get over comments from a teacher about their writing?

I think writing should be fun. I've always thought it should be fun. There's no reason for it not to be. That's why people open a book.

What are your tips for authors who might be concerned about writing characters different to them?

Every character in your book is you in a weird sort of way, even the villain. They're all parts of you that you're projecting into the page in some way.

What are your tips for authors on turning real experiences into story?

These seeds of story are everywhere. You just have to notice them.

But because you were in that place, I think it evoked story in your mind.

Joanna: Do you write in order or out of order?

I write the hero's part first, and then put the villain in afterwards.

Where is your line between using real places and then fictionalizing things?

To set that book apart, I want the reader to know, if they're interested, that I've been there.

What is your main marketing in KU?

If you want a lot of reviews on Amazon, then being in KU is one of the ways to do that.

Is it that you're not doing any marketing to your store, which means it's not getting much traction?

Is it easier to sell non-books to people, and then upsell them on a book?

We've had a $9.99 cap on ebooks since the beginning. So even with inflation, we can't charge more for a book.

What else can we offer people that's interesting, where the price isn't so fixed?

Why did you start the podcast, and what are you hoping to achieve?

Why a podcast?

Where can people find you, and your books, and the podcast online?

Transcript of Interview with Oriana Leckert

What is Kickstarter, for anyone who doesn't know? What is your role there?

Every Kickstarter project has to create something new to share with the world.

What are the types of Kickstarter campaigns that authors do?

Kickstarter can be transformative for an author's career —

You get to test out ambitious projects. You get to understand so much more about your audience —

For an author, what are the kind of rewards that people are doing?

Your main reward is going to be your book, or your series —

The sky is really the limit, and it is based on your creativity —

You need to get on Kickstarter and start backing things and understanding how it works.

Find all the best tricks, steal them for your own.

Have you got any numbers on how big the Kickstarter industry is now with publishing?