Stay ConnectedBurnt Toast is your body liberation community. We’re working to dismantle diet culture and anti-fat bias, and we have a lot of strong opinions about comfy pants.
Co-hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (NYT-bestselling author of FAT TALK) and Corinne Fay (author of the popular plus size fashion newsletter Big Undies).
Copyright: © Virginia Sole-Smith
It's time for another community episode! This month, Virginia and Corinne are exploring how we feel about the word fat: Who gets to use it? What if you just don't want to use it? What is the power of reclaiming it? Thank you to everyone who contributed today. If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to preorder! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. You can preorder your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.CW: In this episode we do mention some specific weights and sizes. If numbers are triggering to you, you might want to skip this episode. BUTTERWhen Whales FlyGirlfriend Collective high waist compression leggingsPaloma braSuperfit HeroBOOKSOrder any of these from the Burnt Toast Bookshop for 10 percent off if you also preorder (or have already preordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Fat! So? by Marilyn WannShrill by Lindy WestLittle Witch Hazel by Phoebe WahlOTHER LINKSTuesday’s newsletterSellTradePlusOur March mailbag episodeWho gets to call themselves fat? What if you just don't want to use the word fat? What if you just don’t want to be fat?I had a huge ribcagethat This American Life episodeMarielle ElizabethCatherine's TikTokthe good fattyThe Fat LipCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.VirginiaYou're listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter. CorinneAnd I'm Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing. VirginiaSo you are all very lucky because you are getting two Corinne episodes this month. We had our regular March mailbag episode, and I asked her to join me for today's community episode. Thank you, Corinne!CorinneThanks for having me. The theme of today's episode is, “How do we feel about the word fat?”VirginiaThis is something we've been talking about because, as we're going to get into, there's stuff in the—well I was going to say news, but it doesn't exactly make the news. CorinneIt’s news for us. VirginiaIt’s news for us. It's not on the evening news. But there's a lot of stuff happening in fat activism circles right now, which got us thinking about this question again. Because it's an evergreen question, right? We've covered it on the newsletter before: Who gets to call themselves fat? What if you just don't want to use the word fat? What if you just don’t want to be fat? And it feels like time to get into these questions again.So, Corinne, tell us your story. When did you start using the word fat? And specifically, when did you reclaim the word fat for yourself? CorinneI have this core memory of reading a teen magazine with one of my friends in middle school. The magazine said something about, like, plus size models or something. And I remember just being like, “But what is plus size?” Like, I don't know what that means and I know that I’m on the edge. And I just remember my friend being like, “Oh my God, Corinne, you are not plus size.”VirginiaOh and she thought that was very reassuring. CorinneYeah, and I think also was genuinely like “you're not.” I was probably like a size 12 and plus size models are smaller than that.VirginiaYeah in modeling land, as we learned from the midsize queens, thats on the large size for many plus size models.CorinneYeah, I had a huge ribcage.The other childhood memory I have of fatness is I remember coming across the book Fat! So? VirginiaOh, by Marilyn Wann, right? CorinneYeah, in the public library. Like, I stumbled across it.VirginiaOh, what a great find for a kid! CorinneI know. I would love to know what librarian put it on a display shelf.VirginiaBless her or him or them.CorinneI found it and I remember being like, I really want to read this. I'm so interested, and also I don't want anyone to see me reading this and think that I'm fat. It felt very not allowed.VirginiaWere you fat at that point?CorinneI mean, I think it was probably around the same age, like I was probably like a size 12 or 14, but also like 12 years old, you know?VirginiaSo in that gray space where holding a book with the word fat on the cover, you would feel like you were announcing it. Like coming out. CorinneYes, and suddenly people would notice that I was fat as if they hadn't been noticing the whole time. I think there is something about when you do sort of decide that you're going to embrace that word, you do have to admit that you are fat and people know you're fat. Like, there's this way in which if you don't talk about it, then no one notices. VirginiaIf you're not talking about it, even if they're noticing, maybe most people who are kind to you and in your life will not talk about it.CorinneAnd then I think around 2016, I really had a mind change around it. Honestly, I think it was really influenced by Shrill by Lindy West and also that This American Life episode. I think that was the first time that I was really seeing some of my experiences reflected back to me in media. And then I was fully just like, I'm fat. VirginiaThat's so powerful. Shrill was so powerful for so many people. The book and the show. That totally makes sense.CorinneWhat about you? VirginiaI don't have one moment like that, like finding Marilyn Wann or finding Lindy. And I think part of it is because my fatness came on quite gradually, if that makes sense. Like I was a thin kid, I had thin privilege. I got fatter my freshman year of college, but still wore straight sizes. Then did a lot of dieting and stuff in my 20s to stay in straight sizes. So my 30s were about giving up dieting and settling into my adult body, which has always intended itself to be a small fat body. So it was the process of stopping fighting that.But I think I struggled to claim it a little bit. Finding “small fat” was really helpful for me, because I didn't want to be claiming fat and implying that my experience was that of people who deal with more oppression than I do.The other piece of it that was more conscious was, that I really wanted to reclaim the word in our house around our kids. And by reclaim, I mean just claim it for them because they didn't have a negative association, you know? I wanted to give them a baseline of fat as a positive word. That helped me really lean into it.Particularly, I would say in the last five years or so, it's been really cool to see my kids use it in a very offhand whatever kind of way. That is also why I put it in the book title. Preorder FAT TALK!And so, every interview I'm doing for the book now, I feel somewhat surprised, but also not, that one of the questions is always, “tell us, why do you use the word fat?” CorinneInteresting. VirginiaParticularly by straight size folks, I'm being asked it a lot. Like, “why do you say the word fat?” And, “do I have to say fat?” And, “can I say fat?” And, “what's the power of teaching kids to say fat?” It makes me realize how many people still are, like, nowhere with that reclaiming concept. CorinneJust in getting ready for this, I googled Fat! So? and was looking at some excerpts online and I was really struck by how relevant it seems. It seems like the same stuff we're talking about now in a lot of ways. And it came out in 1998. VirginiaOh, God. Thank you, Marilyn Wann. I don't think I realized it was quite that old. I thought it was like 2010s or something. CorinneYeah, I was really surprised. VirginiaIt must be very irritating to be in that first or second wave of fat activists who put all that work out and then there is all of us being like, “we've newly acquired this language,” and they're like, “yeah, it’s been there. Thanks. Thanks for that.” Yeah, we see the labor for sure.CorinneWell, on that note, we're gonna hear from a Burnt Toast community member named Valerie, just about the power of reclaiming that word. I am what's considered super fat, which is the terminology we use at the nolose fat liberation queer conference, where I really learned most of what I know about fat liberation. Even if someone can only see my face over Zoom, it's very clear that I am fat. And I have been fat since I was nine years old. I was very severely bullied in late elementary, middle, and high school for my weight. And though my parents never put me on a diet or made me feel bad directly about my body—and they are both in larger bodies—they dieted constantly in my youth, so I absorbed those messages anyway. It's important for me to use the term “fat” to destigmatize it, and emphasize it as a neutral term like height or hair color, as much as anything can be neutral. I find that when I lead a conversation by using the word fat, things go better. And using this language with children has been especially powerful as I use my standard script of, “oh, fat isn't a bad or good word. It's a neutral descriptive word. Someone can be thin or fat, tall or short, but any word can be used to hurt someone's feelings if you say it in a way that's intended to hurt them. But there shouldn't be anything bad or mean about saying that word fat.” I know I can't undo all of society's messaging, but I hope that at least being introduced to body neutral concepts by a fat adult can plant some positive seeds for the children in my life.VirginiaHearing Valerie's story is making me realize I don't want to talk about it, but I guess we have to talk about “The Whale” and the travesty that is Brendan Fraser’s Oscar and the makeup artist Oscar. Listening to Valerie talk about all this so beautifully, I'm just again, like, why did they think it was okay to tell this story without talking to, from what we can tell, any super fat people at all? It just was nowhere part of their work. Or even a moderately fat person, I don't feel like was consulted in the making.CorinneI have to admit I've been kind of avoiding hearing about “The Whale.” VirginiaVery valid. We will not use details here because I don't want to trigger anyone. It's so toxic. CorinneDid you watch it?VirginiaNo. I'm extremely grateful to Lindy West and Roxane Gay who really took that bullet for all of us. They both watched it. I felt like enough folks watched it and wrote beautiful critiques and I am reading their critiques and learning from them and do not need to put myself through it. But it was really a selfless act for them to do that, because it does not sound like a pleasant viewing experience at all. It's just maddening.I didn't watch the Oscars, either, because I go to bed early. But just seeing the clips afterwards and seeing just so much joy for him. And like, “Oh, he's always been this amazing, wonderful actor,” and his speech was full of fat jokes and weird references. Corinneoh god.VirginiaI'm sorry. I can't celebrate him. You cannot, as a dominant group, take a marginalized group’s story and decide you can do whatever you want with it. It's unacceptable. Even if you land on a few powerful moments. Even if you manage to come up with a few things that resonate as true for some people in that marginalized group. It’s still not okay. CorinneIt does feel like we're really at the point in culture where like taking on someone else's identity for entertainment purposes is not cool. VirginiaLike we could move past that.We don't need to keep ranting about “The Whale.” Valerie, thank you for sharing your experience. We need more of these stories. I also really like what Valerie says about how powerful it is to talk to kids about this and to explain that fat as a neutral, descriptive word with kids. Because I hear this a ton from parents. With fat parents, I think it's like, “I'm figuring out how I feel about the word but also what do I do with my kids?” And with straight-size parents, it's like this total deer-in-headlights moment, when their child uses the word fat. They're like, “I don't want to imply that fat is bad, but I also don't want them to hurt people's feelings. What do I do?”So let's hear from Bea, who had some great thoughts about that.I have kids in the loudly-saying-awkward-things phase. It's easy when it's about me.“Mama, Little Witch Hazel in the book looks like you. She's fat. She has hairy legs and long hair.”“Oh, wow. Yeah. And her nose sunburns like mine.”Not hard to treat the word “fat” as applied to me as if it's perfectly neutral. But when they talk about other people, if they say, “that person is in a wheelchair,” I can say, “Yep, isn't it cool? We all get around differently.”“That person's skin is brown.”“Yes, it's beautiful how many colors people are made in.”I want race and disability and body size to be things they can talk about, without shame. And without the idea that their small, white, able bodies are in any way better than others. But when they say that person's fat, it's hard to say. “Yep, it's great that bodies come in all different shapes and sizes.” Because of the “yep.” Because the person may not feel neutral about being called fat. My four year old recently, exuberantly told our neighbor that her legs were really big. And the neighbor just grinned. But I was at a loss for words other than quietly reminding the kid that every body is great and in our culture, we still don't comment on other people's bodies.CorinneBea is touching on the fact that while a lot of people have reclaimed the word fat, it still can be used as an insult and it's kind of hard to walk that line. Because even though we might feel one way about the word, we can't really predict how someone else may feel about it. VirginiaAlso, kids’ ways of commenting are so specific. I love that the four year old is like, “your legs are really big.” That is such a kid way to put it. I'm glad the neighbor was fine with it, it seems. But I totally get as a parent, you're like, I don't even know what to do with that. It is tricky. And you want to make space for people's boundaries around talking about their bodies are really important to respect. And I think you can totally do that while framing fat as a positive thing. CorinneEven the thing about saying “we don't comment on other people's bodies,” it's like, do kids really hear that? I feel like 50 percent of what k…
Full show notes at the publisherToday Virginia is chatting with Chrissy King. Chrissy's new book, The Body Liberation Project: How Understanding Racism and Diet Culture Helps Cultivate Joy and Build Collective Freedom is out this week. It’s an incredible mix of memoir and cultural analysis and an exploration of the intersection of racism and diet culture. And remember, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off if you also preorder (or have already preordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to preorder! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. You can preorder your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSFollow Chrissy on Instagram, Tiktok, and TwitterWe are recording your April Mailbag episode soon. Send us all your questions here. Wondering how we pick which Qs to answer? The mailbag episodes are for hot takes, funny anecdotes, clothing recs, or random facts you want to know about us. You can ask something more complicated, just know that anything that requires research and reporting gets put in a different “future Ask Virginia/essay ideas” pile. 3 amazing Black dietitians to follow: Jessica Jones and Wendy Lopez and Jessica WilsonThe Body Is Not an ApologyFearing the Black Bodythe AAP guidelinesChrissy's pottery TikToksSouper CubesCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.Episode 85 TranscriptChrissyMy name is Chrissy King, I'm originally from the Midwest. I'm from Wisconsin and I've been in Brooklyn for the past three years. I worked a corporate job for a very long time and then became a fitness professional, worked in the fitness industry. During the course of that, I started writing, and talking, about the need for more diversity, inclusion, and anti-racism work in the wellness industry. And talking a lot about my own body image journey, which has led me to the work that I'm doing now. So, now I'm primarily a writer, I'm an educator, and I still do a lot of my work within the wellness industry.VirginiaAnd we are here to celebrate your new book, The Body Liberation Project, which I just got to read. The book is so smart and thoughtful. I loved how you weave your personal story together with all the larger issues that you're grappling with. Tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write this and how you decided to use your personal story in the larger context?ChrissyThank you for the kind words about the book. I'm so excited for it. I went to college for social welfare and justice, so social justice and issues around race and white supremacy have always been at the core of whatever work I was doing in whatever capacity. When I got into fitness, I saw that so many of those issues were unaddressed in the fitness industry. Especially prior to George Floyd—I always say that's the mark at which people in the wellness industry started talking about these issues.VirginiaTo folks outside of this world, those two issues—George Floyd and the fitness industry—feel so disconnected. I wonder if you could connect the dots a little more there and talk about why that particular event? ChrissyI think about George Floyd and that moment in history, that moment in time, a lot. Because prior to George Floyd, I was reading articles about anti-racism and DEI and the need for that in wellness. I was talking about the impact of racism on the health of black folks in particular, and why in the wellness industry—where the goal is to help people be well—we have to be talking about all these other issues, right? Prior to George Floyd, people just weren't as interested in the conversation. They didn't understand the importance of talking about these issues as they related to wellness. I mean, some people did. But generally speaking, the larger population in the wellness and fitness industry did not see why that was necessary and didn't even really want to address it. When George Floyd happened, it was a very interesting turning point. I still don't know, when I think through it, what was so different about that event in time. Because George Floyd was just one of many situations that have occurred over the years. So I don't know if it was because it was also in the height of the pandemic and people were largely at home and less distracted by life. Obviously, the video went viral and was shown all over the globe, actually. So I don't know why that situation changed things. But I felt like people in the wellness space were like, “OH, racism is a real issue that's affecting people, that is also having an impact on people's health. And it's something that we should be talking about,” in ways that people just weren't interested in having the conversations before. In a lot of ways it was a good thing because it opened up a lot of discussion. Now we're nearly three years after that and I don't know how much of an impact it had in actual practice. It was a weird time because it was like, wow, I'm glad that people are really willing to have this conversation now. And on the flip side, like, this is really disheartening that we had to have something of this extent happen for people to start acknowledging that it was important.Virginia It should not have taken that for people to reckon with this. And there was a lot of very performative awareness. I remember at the time watching folks like you and Jessica Jones and Wendy Lopez and Jessica Wilson. You all were inundated with interview requests, article requests. Like, “please talk to us about this.” I just remember thinking, This is not the way. This is not a fair ask of these women who had been doing this work for so long, who should be honored for that, and are now being asked, in this time of grief, to be saving us all. There was a weird energy, I just want to name that.ChrissyIt was a weird energy. Because, on one hand, I'm like, great! I'm happy people are willing to have these conversations. But there was a lot of collective grief and trauma, right? You're right. It was like, I'm being inundated with all of these requests and very much a sense of urgency from people, right? Like, “we need this right now.”Virginia“Right now. We have to have this conversation that is 200 years overdue.”ChrissyIt's so strange. But prior to that, I was doing a lot of this work because no one was having those conversations. Thinking about my own journey with body image, I struggled with body image and yo-yo dieting since I was 10 or 11 years old. I've always been really obsessed about my weight. Growing up in the Midwest and going to a school where I was the only like Black girl in my class—there were only two other black kids in the school, my brother and sister—I always felt like I was trying to reach the standards of beauty that I couldn't actually reach. One of the ways that I could aspire to be what I thought was beautiful is I could be thinner, I could be smaller.When I was working with clients as a trainer, most of the clients I worked with were women. And I would say every single client I had was struggling with body image issues and were coming to the gym with a desire to lose weight, with the belief that that would fix their issues with their body. And I did the same thing and what I realized through weight loss is that I still had the same body image issues I started with—and in a lot of ways they were worse. It wasn't the weight that was the problem. It was the system, the standards of beauty that have been created that we are trying to aspire to. White supremacy, actually. That's the culprit. Our bodies are not the problem. That's what inspired me to write this book. Because, unfortunately, so many of us are spending so many years of our lives, focused on shrinking and obsessing about our weight. I think that all of us have very specific magic to do in the world and it doesn't have anything to do with what we look like. The sooner we can work to repair that relationship with our bodies, I think the easier it is for us to live lives that feel nourishing and full, that aren't focused on trying to be smaller.VirginiaYes! So you come from a social justice background in terms of your college and early work, and then there's kind of a pivot into fitness, which you talk about in the book. When you were studying social justice and in that place, were you connecting the dots between that and fitness culture?ChrissyNo, I was definitely not connecting any dots back then. Especially when I was in college, I was very much in diet culture as a participant, right? I was making no connections to the similarities and the ways in that which white supremacy wreaks havoc in all areas, basically, in very similar ways. It wasn't until I had been a trainer for a few years. I had been competing in powerlifting. I was the leanest I've ever been, I was the strongest I’ve ever been. And I had this moment, I call it my rock bottom moment. I just realized I was still so so miserable in my body. All the things I thought [getting lean was] gonna fix, that didn't change any of it. It actually made it worse in a lot of ways.And it was then when I really started to think about body image and think about why I was struggling so much. I started to explore my relationship with body image and I read The Body Is Not an Apology. That book was transformational for me in a lot of ways. And that's when I first started thinking about the intersection or the connections between social justice and body image and that so many of the same themes apply in the same way. Then I started to think back to when I was younger, when I was 9 or 10, and looking at pictures of people that were touted as the most beautiful people in the world. They were thin and blond and blue eyed, and they didn't look anything like me. And starting to realize that's a big piece of why I was struggling, because I was trying to reach these standards of beauty and I didn't see myself represented in them. That's when I started to really put things together in my mind. And then I read Fearing the Black Body by Dr. Sabrina Strings, and I started to understand the origin of fatphobia going back to slavery, its very roots are in racism and white supremacy. That's when I started making the connections between social justice and fatphobia, body image, the fitness industry, the wellness industry in general.VirginiaI'm thinking about this in the context of the news about the AAP guidelines and who's championing those guidelines. So many of the people who are saying, “No, this is what we need to do, we need to be prescribing diets and surgery and drugs for kids,” would identify themselves as liberal, as progressive, as social justice-oriented, would have posted something about George Floyd, and are not connecting the dots between, “oh, I think racism is bad,” and “Actually, I am perpetuating it in this work.”ChrissyIt's one of the things that I think is so important about doing the work of anti-racism, really like taking the time to really understand it and sit with how it really shows up in our lives. Because what you're saying is true. It's the same people who are maybe championing these things would be the same people to say like racism is bad or post a black square or talk about George Floyd but not understanding the way that white supremacy is seeping into every area of our lives and how it's really informing our decisions in ways that are inherently racist, right? That's the difficult work, to not just read the books and take the courses, but to really sit with and understand how it's informing all the decisions that we're making.VirginiaA problem you tackle very head on in the book is the way white feminism in particular, as an arm of white supremacy, has erased the original intentions and the original advocates for the body positivity movement. This is so important. And yet, body positivity, the way it is currently portrayed on social media, still remains this important entry point for lots of folks. So I'm just wondering if you can talk a little about why staying in that entry point isn't taking the work far enough?ChrissyUnfortunately, as body positivity has become more mainstream and more commercialized, it has definitely been co-opted by thinner bodies, straight size even, a lot of white women. It has definitely centered people that weren't supposed to be centered in the movement and in a lot of ways erased the creators of the movement, and that's very harmful.And: I think body positivity is still a good point of entry for people to start thinking about their bodies differently. It offers people a way to even just consider that there's other options to think about their bodies and diet culture. So it still serves its purpose in a lot of ways. And, there's also still problems with that. I think both things can be true. Unfortunately, as it's become more commercialized, it has also been hyper focused on this idea of “self love” as the answer, right? It’s a lot of affirmations about loving your body. When you look under the hashtag on Instagram, you see, a lot of people showing rolls or dimples or stretch marks and saying, but I still love myself. And it's like, that's great. I'm happy for you. I also want to be clear that although the movement was created and founded by fat, Black and brown women, it does not mean—in my opinion, at least—other people can't participate. But I think it's really important to be mindful that the focus should be on the most marginalized identities among us, right? And I think that what also happens with the body positivity spaces, people conflate having body image issues on a personal level—most of us do have personal body image issues, right? But not liking your stretch marks or not liking jiggle on your thighs is very different than living in a body that is systemically oppressed.I think that people fail to realize that distinction, sometimes, when we start having this conversation about the problems within this space. And it's like, no, we're not saying everybody can't participate. We're saying, though, it's really important to understand that distinction. And to make sure you're not taking up too much space in something that wasn't created for someone like you to be at the center of the movement.VirginiaIt's a balance I struggle…
Full show notes at the publisherIt's our March Ask Us Anything episode! We're covering anti-diet puberty books, clothing size chart confusion, our style icons, and a mom who thinks her 13-year-old needs to chew her food more. If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid. Also, don't forget to preorder Virginia's new book! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books.(Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctosr, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSSellTradePlusUnlikely Hikersthe Unlikely Hikers Merrell collabBody Liberation Hiking Clubplus size backpacksCelebrate Your Body (and Its Changes, Too!): The Ultimate Puberty Book for GirlsThe Body Is Not an ApologyA Body Image Workbook for Every Body: A Guide for Deconstructing Diet Culture and Learning How to Respect, Nourish, and Care for Your Whole SelfThe Intuitive Eating Workbook for Teens: A Non-Diet, Body Positive Approach to Building a Healthy Relationship with FoodLove Your Body: Your Body Can Do Amazing Things...No Weigh!: A Teen's Guide to Positive Body Image, Food, and Emotional Wisdom. It’s Perfectly NormalSex is a Funny WordUniversal Standard has some petite pantsBig Bud Press has petitesJeans Science seriesthe complaints of the mid-size queensLydia Okello Matty Matheson Julie from Rudy JudeMarquimodeDacy’s course.Emma StraubAmintou Sow is it the ultra processed foods?Muna and Broad pattern for underwearmistaken for pregnant All That BreathesCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.VirginiaYou’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.CorinneAnd I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.VirginiaIt is time for your March Ask Us Anything episode! I feel like we should call these mailbag episodes? Ask Us Anything is so clunky. We should workshop that. If someone has a better name, let us now. But! It is time for us to answer your questions. We have a very good mix of questions. We’re going to do some parenting questions, some clothing questions, and then the miscellaneous smorgasbord kind of questions.CorinneThe miscellaneous ones are always my favorite.VirginiaAgreed. CorinneAnd this is also a paywalled episode! That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It’s just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Click here to join us!VirginiaCorinne, what is new with you? It’s very windy at your house today, right?CorinneYes. Spring into Mexico means horrible wind. We’re having 75 mile an hour winds. VirginiaThis sounds terrifying. CorinneIf you don’t live somewhere where wind is a thing you don’t realize how bad it is. But it’s so bad. It just makes everyone in a bad mood.VirginiaIs it dangerous? Like, can you drive?CorinneThey do issue like high wind warnings, but I think it’s more for huge trucks.VirginiaStuff blowing around. CorinneYeah, your roof blowing away. My other exciting thing is that this weekend, I went on an Unlikely Hikers hike. VirginiaOh, so fun. And how was it? CorinneIt was fun. It was really cool. VirginiaThat’s awesome. I have been coveting the Unlikely Hikers Merrell collab. CorinneYeah, some people were wearing those and they were very cute.VirginiaMy last Body Liberation Hiking Club hike, there were two if not three people wearing the boots and I was like, “Well, this is now all I can think about.”CorinneNow you need them. They’re very cute.VirginiaAnd I just bought new hiking boots three months ago. So I missed the window. Cor folks who don’t know what Unlikely Hikers is, can you explain what that is and where they are and stuff?CorinneIt’s run by this person named Jenny Bruso. Jenny travels around and does hikes in different areas. They also have worked with the brand Gregory to make plus size backpacks. And yeah, the Merrell boots. There are also starting to be some Unlikely Hikers chapters, so that’s cool. I’m hoping that maybe there will be one in Albuquerque!VirginiaYou can also start a Body Liberation Hiking Club. Because Alexa—Hi, Alexa!—launched that here in the Hudson Valley. And now we have chapters popping up all around, so we’ll link to that Instagram if people want to look for one. And I think they’re very in sync with Unlikely Hikers. I don’t think it’s like a Jets and Sharks rivalry situation or anything. CorinneYeah, I’m sure it’s not.VirginiaWe are all for more people hiking in awesome ways. CorinneWhat’s new with you?VirginiaWhat’s new with me is I have a child home sick. So, there’s nothing new with me. There is always a child home sick this time of year. So we may get some interruptions in this podcast recording, we’ll see. We’ve deployed her third parent the iPad to take care of things.CorinneHonestly, it would make me feel better if a child interrupted rather than my dog.VirginiaYou may just hear some faint coughing. I promise, she sounds like a Victorian waif but she’s totally fine. It’s just a cold. So, we’re going to start with parenting questions! CorinneQ: Anti-diet puberty books! At the recommendation of our doctor and the internet, we purchased the book The Care and Keeping of You Volume One for our eight year old girl. What a load of shit! So much diet talk/am I too big questions? How is this five stars on Amazon? Why are we telling children to talk to their doctors if they need to diet, to track the food they eat? I returned it. No need to have that book at our house when they are already given similar messaging out in the world. What puberty/sex ed for preteen book recommendations do you have?VirginiaSo, this is a spoiler for chapter 12 of my book, which is all about how anti-fat bias manifests in conversations around puberty. So get excited for that! Quick preorder shameless plug, make sure you’ve got Fat Talk coming! (Here’s how to get a signed copy, here’s the UK edition, and here’s the audiobook.)But obviously, Fat Talk is not a book you will hand to your child. I do not explain puberty in any detail, but I talk about the messaging and I have a little bit on The Care and Keeping of You because that book is a wild ride. It has gone through many editions and I will say the newer editions are better. You may have purchased an older edition, but there are definitely still diet culture vibes throughout. The books that you need instead—and I’m pulling from the resource section of Fat Talk, so this will all be listed there, too:Sonya Renee Taylor, of course: Celebrate Your Body (and Its Changes, Too!): The Ultimate Puberty Book for Girls. Now, there is one footnote to this. Sonya Renee Taylor is amazing. We have discussed our love for her. I have no criticisms of her. But the first edition of this book did have some food stuff in the nutrition section that folks objected to. I’ve had my nine year old read the book and I was like, “let me know if you have questions about the food stuff.” It just gets a little good food, bad food, but overall the book is phenomenal. I mean, not surprisingly, it’s very grounded in the The Body Is Not an Apology ethos. So that is a really fantastic one and the one we have in my house. A Body Image Workbook for Every Body: A Guide for Deconstructing Diet Culture and Learning How to Respect, Nourish, and Care for Your Whole Self by Rachel Sellers and Mimi Cole is a nice one (though weirdly only available on Amazon).More specific to foodstuff, which I know you’re asking for like puberty, sex ed, but I think it kind of relates, The Intuitive Eating Workbook for Teens: A Non-Diet, Body Positive Approach to Building a Healthy Relationship with Food by Elyse Resch is very good.For younger 8-9 year olds, Love Your Body: Your Body Can Do Amazing Things... by Jessica Sanders and Carol Rossetti is a big picture book with amazing body diverse illustrations and lots of really great messaging about how your body will be changing and how to celebrate the changes and all of that. That one’s really good. Last one, for more of a take on body image and food issues is No Weigh!: A Teen's Guide to Positive Body Image, Food, and Emotional Wisdom. Did you ever read The Care and Keeping of You? Was that a puberty book you encountered? CorinneNo, I’ve never read it or heard of it. The book that my mom gave me was called It’s Perfectly Normal. Have you seen that? VirginiaOh, yeah. We have that one, too.CorinneI haven’t revisited it but I thought it was pretty good. It’s from the nineties, but…VirginiaIt’s been updated, as well. We have that one. One critique of that one is it’s very gender normative.CorinneThat makes sense. VirginiaI think a lot of puberty books are pretty gender binary.CorinneIt does have a lot of like other diversity, though. I remember there being fat people and people in wheelchairs.VirginiaYes, it is good on that. I mean, in general, I feel like puberty books are often very good on racial diversity, disability diversity, and less good on gender and body size diversity. CorinneThat makes sense. VirginiaThere’s room in this market is what I’m saying.CorinneYeah. I wonder if there are books out there that address the gender stuff, specifically.VirginiaSex is a Funny Word by Corey Silverberg is a really great one for introducing a lot of the sex ed topics. It talks about masturbation in a really positive way and it definitely talks about sex and gender and gender identity. All of that stuff is really well done. What’s tricky about this topic is that people will say puberty books and it’s like, do you just want something to explain how you get your period, or…? It’s a huge topic. So the other thing I would say is don’t expect any one book to answer everything. Expect to have to keep diving into it. But that gives you a few to to get into and yeah, The Care and Keeping of You. I think we can retire that one. That would be my vote.CorinneAlright, I’m going to read the next question. My daughter is 13 and until she was 10, I was fully immersed in diet culture. I’ve since done a 180 and I’m trying so hard to not regulate what my kids eat, and just offer them options and let them choose. I try to have things I know they like available and I try to talk about food neutrally. Often though, it seems like my daughter is eating to the point of a stomachache several times a week, at least. I wonder if part of that is she often takes very big bites and doesn’t chew them much. Is she getting overly hungry? Does she need a reminder to take smaller bites? These are things I want to bring up with her. There could be something else going on, of course, and there’s so many factors that go into a stomachache, but I don’t know how to have a conversation about it or if I even should, without potentially shaming her or questioning her autonomy. I have been sort of hoping it would just work itself out? Like maybe she would start recognizing it and adjust something. But it seems like feeling sick so often isn’t great. How would you approach this?EPISODE CREDITSCo-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Producer: Kim Baldwin. Logo design: Deanna Lowe.Theme Song: Farideh.Video Editor: Elizabeth AyikuAudio Engineer: Tommy HarronFollow us on social! Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith. Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Full show notes at the publisherToday Virginia is chatting with Debra Benfield, RDN. Debra has helped hundreds of women heal their relationship with food eating in their bodies over her 35-year career as a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist specializing in the prevention and treatment of disordered eating, and brings her passion, expertise, and lived experience to the intersection of pro-aging and body liberation work. Deb’s work is rooted in helping clients recognize internalized ageism and end it, dismantle internalized diet culture and fatphobia, nourish their bodies to support vitality and aging and develop a respectful partnership with their bodies. If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to preorder! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. You can preorder your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSFollow Deb@agingbodyliberation (Facebook)Deb's small group coaching that focuses on aging with vitality and body liberationgrappling with feelings about our aging bodiesThe Truth About Grandparentsthat Emma Thompson conversationAshton Applewhite's TED talkAgeism Unmasked: Exploring Age Bias and How to End ItBreaking the Age Code: How Your Beliefs about Aging Determine How Long and Well You Live How Not to Drown in a Glass of WaterCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.Episode 81 TranscriptDebSo, I turned 60 four years ago. And when that happened, I got curious about what the research was saying about aging and how to make choices to support myself. And I was hit very hard with things that I shouldn’t be surprised by, but I was surprised to see, like how loud and obnoxious the diet and wellness industry messages were in that entire pro-aging culture, not to mention the thin bodies. Since all that happened and my frustration with it, I’ve headed in a direction to provide and create something that I was looking for myself.VirginiaYou reached out to me about having this conversation after I’d written a little bit about grappling with feelings about our aging bodies. As I said in that piece, I’ll be 42 this year. So I’m fairly new to thinking about ageism in anything other than the abstract, but it is clearly time I start learning about it. So I’m eager to be doing this work. and I’m eager to talk with you about how it intersects with anti-fat bias. I think we should start with the ageism piece. What is ageism? How does it show up in the world? DebAgeism is having a preconceived notion or storyline or a prejudiced view of another person or your own self based on age or perception of age. The way it shows up in the world is complicated in that we have so many myths about aging. I have two grandchildren, one and three, that I read stories to and—you probably hear this all the time—you just want to edit, edit, edit. The stories about the old characters are just all atrocious. The parallels with the anti-fat bias are compelling and we can talk about that, but the myths about old people being unhappy and grumpy and rigid and having a closed mindset and not being interested in new things, or sex, or pleasure and being depressed and certainly being less capable and having a poor memory.VirginiaOn the many list of possible stereotypes, I think you’ve named the greatest hits.DebWhen it comes to how we see our bodies, I think we’ve all internalized that without question and hold anxiety for what our bodies and our experiences will be like as we age. I have many people that as I start to talk to them say, “Well, I’ve been thinking about this since I was 25,” or “I started thinking about Botox when I was in my 20s,” and “It’s happening earlier than I expected.” I think that’s more true now. I have a very wise, dear friend who is now talking to her teenagers about how they see aging, because it’s going to happen to everybody if we’re lucky.VirginiaExactly. It is the goal, to get to age. But I think you’re right. We render people invisible as they get older, especially women and other marginalized folks. And we know that in workplaces, ageism becomes a factor at age 35, for women, that’s when it starts. The pressure to start fighting your aging is happening well before you’re actually aging. DebIt feels really messed up. VirginiaSince you mentioned reading books to your grandchildren? Do you have the book The Truth About Grandparents? Is that in your collection?DebNo! I need to get that one. VirginiaIt’s by Elina Ellis and it is just a marvelous book. It’s like, “the truth about grandparents is they don’t like to have fun,” and the illustrations are the grandparents being silly and adventurous. “They don’t like to dance,” and they’re dancing, and they don’t care about romance and they’re kissing. It’s just a beautiful, positive depiction of how wonderful grandparents are. What I really love is the grandmother is fat. She’s just fat and doing yoga and doing all these great things.DebThank you for telling me about that. VirginiaNow let’s get into how you see ageism paralleling anti-fat bias. And if you think there are differences.DebOne of the things that I think is just—I grab my head every time it happens—is when I hear anti-aging activists talk about the phenomenon of ageism. Almost every single one says “this is the last unchallenged prejudice.” And that is because they aren’t as aware about the reality that anti-fat bias is also, and maybe more so. VirginiaI do think we in general need to get away from this whole “last bias” because I mean, there’s also ableism. There’s a little bit of hubris in the idea that you’ve identified the one last bias. DebAnd ableism is so mixed into this, too. Thank you so much for saying that because it’s definitely in there.The other thing I think is true is that we have medicalized both and created huge industry about addressing those naturally occurring phenomena. Biodiversity and aging are both normal and natural and they have become the object of industry, including medicine and pharmaceuticals. The more I read about anti-aging to familiarize myself with the bullshit, the more I see it’s just all the same mess that I’m accustomed to seeing with the anti-fat bias. There is an American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine.VirginiaWow. And how are they preventing aging? DebWell, they’re doing all the research. They’re doing all the research on dieting and also pharmaceuticals. And lots of stuff about our brains. VirginiaI just love that no one at that association has thought about the impossibility of that name for the group. Like anti-aging medicine. We literally can’t stop dying. DebYeah, well maybe you need to check them out because they are there to sell you on the fact that perhaps they can.VirginiaIt’s real. DebI’m also curious about the spectrum. We talk a lot about the spectrum of fatness and it’s the same when you talk to people about age. They have young-old, middle-old, and old. I’m not kidding! The same thing. I mean, I’m actually young-old, as a 64 year old. They start talking about being elderly when you’re 55.VirginiaElderly, but still young old.DebSenior—I mean, all the words. VirginiaWell, and again, it’s going to vary so much on your context, right? Like, what is elderly in Hollywood vs what is elderly in Michigan?Deb Yeah, or with pregnancy.VirginiaAnd what’s elderly for women is different than for men.DebSo true. And people have such strong reactions. I am not a fan of the word senior. But I am cool with elderhood. I’m way cool with being an elder. I’m cool with being old. I’m cool with that.VirginiaWhat is it about senior you don’t like?DebIt feels condescending. It feels like it just doesn’t apply. I mean, it’s nice if I’m getting a discount at the movie theater. Senior discount.VirginiaYeah. Take that discount. I agree, “elder” sounds wise. DebBut elderly…VirginiaThat’s more frail, fragile. There are different implications. That’s so interesting. I haven’t thought a lot about these words. DebAnd they’re probably different for different people.VirginiaI really bristle when you see a waiter in a restaurant talk to an older person and say, “Come along, young lady.” That is so condescending to me. DebElder speak.VirginiaIt’s a way of talking to elders and infantilizing them, right? DebI’ve had the experience already and it is not pleasant.VirginiaWhat did you say? Is there anything to say in the moment?DebI was shocked, since I’m a young old. No, it was like, damn, this just happened. She just called me sweetie. I mean, I knew what she was doing. And when I’ve told the story to my friends, they are like, “Oh, she was just being nice.”VirginiaLike gaslighting. “She didn’t mean anything by it.”Deb And when it comes to your experience in medicine, that’s another parallel. You are not considered a whole person after a certain age. There are many, many stories of not being looked at, not being spoken to, somebody looking at the other person with you. Or looking at your age first, and assuming that your age that is the issue. Like Ashton Applewhite, I don’t know if you’re familiar with her work, highly recommend her TED talk, she’s amazing. She talks about going into the doctor with a 64 year old body saying like, my knee hurts. And immediately the doctor talks about her age and she’s like, “but the other knee is the same age.”VirginiaI have two 64 year old knees. DebWhy is one fine?VirginiaI remember a conversation with my step-grandmother when she was probably 82 or 83, somewhere around there. For some reason, we were having like a family-wide discussion about how we felt about our ages, and we asked her, how do you feel about it? And she said, “It seems to be my primary characteristic now. It’s what I’m constantly reduced to.” And that was a real moment for me. It made me realize how much I was reducing her to her age. I thought of her as this frail old lady that we had to help in and out of the house, and take care of, because she was having mobility challenges. That was a moment for me to reckon with like, right, everyone in this room has reduced to your age in a way that’s really problematic.DebSo much loss. VirginiaI don’t know, I hope we did better after that, but we probably didn’t do enough.DebThe hope is that this movement that is starting to happen and is going to shift and change things for people, especially women as they approach this 50+ menopausal, postmenopausal reality. That’s my hope is that this conversation is going to get loud.VirginiaAs you’re talking to folks about their own experiences of aging and trying to shift to a pro-aging movement and a pro-aging conversation, how do you think about individual choices about things like Botox? Because I want to hold space for the fact that there are workplaces or contexts where a lot of this feels necessary as a survival strategy. And yet, we need to examine these choices and how we’re being complicit in perpetuating the bias. DebI think as a feminist, this has been an entire lifetime of curiosity about what I feel about augmentations and procedures and cosmetics and so many things. I try just to let women do what they need to do. I don’t know what else to do other than let women have their autonomy and make their choices. VirginiaIf we believe in body liberation, we have to believe in body liberation. DebIt’s not my first thought. I have to get to that, sometimes. I have to talk myself into that place.VirginiaYes, that makes sense.DebI can make some judgments real quick.VirginiaYes. I’m good at that, but I would like to be less good at it.DebYou do you. I understand it just like I understand people who want to be thin. This world makes it very hard to have a body—an aging body, a larger body. But my go-to is Sonya Renee Taylor’s work, that’s where I go. And understanding that the default body is real. It doesn’t feel safe or like you have any power or like you belong if you are in any way other than the default. To try to remember that and have compassion for people still wanting to pass as thin, pass as young, pass as whatever they need to pass to feel safer and like they have some power in their lives.VirginiaIt seems like there is still value in naming it for ourselves. Naming that I’m dying my gray hair because of X, Y, and Z reasons, even if you’re not making a different choice, even if it doesn’t feel safe to make a different choice, even if this is the choice you just really want to make. Like understanding the larger context feels really important. DebWomen who are talking about the going gray phenomenon, since COVID kind of accelerated that for a lot of people, talk a lot about how differently they’re treated. Same as when people lose weight, how differently they’re treated. It feels good to feel like you belong, it feels good to feel like you are relevant. And it can be frightening to feel like you’re no longer as relevant. So, it’s quite the process. And now we’re talking about why aging actually makes you more vulnerable to diet and wellness culture.VirginiaSay more about that.DebBecause of the fear of irrelevance, because of the fear of being frail, alone. For all of those stories that we carry about aging, all of the fear and anxiety that we carry about aging, it makes us feel somewhat protected from those things coming true if we hold onto thinness. Because every—and I mean every, please show me where I’m wrong—EVERY pro-aging account that I’ve been able to find holds up a thin, white, silver haired woman. Sometimes they’re brown or Black. Sometimes there is more diversity, but they’re thin. Really thin. And there’s something about bringing with that, that you’re still hip, you’re still relevant, you’re still vital, you’re still capable, that you’re at least thin. So there’s some interesting vulnerability that I think women as they age have, for falling into the trap.I talk to women all day and what they tell me is, I was doing well in my recovery or my intuitive eating. I was doing really well until the doctor said something or this health scare happened—breast cancer, something happened. And they start to associate losing weight, and sometimes they’re told losing weight will protect them from a recurrence or from an accelerated disease process. So there’s kind of a double whammy happening.VirginiaYeah, I’ve definitely heard from older women who’ve said something like, “Well, that’s fine when you’re under 50. But once you get over 50, the health issues mean that you have to eat this way. You have to follow these rules about eating.” They don’t feel included in conversations around intuitive eating or not dieting, because they believe that the health risks are more present for them.1 I think a lot of that has to do with the narrative they’…
Full show notes at the publisherIt's our February Ask Us Anything episode! We're covering body autonomy for kids, 90s makeup icons, body feelings, and the dreaded business casual.
If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.
If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid.
Also, don't forget to preorder Virginia's new book! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books.
Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
BUTTER & OTHER LINKS
Draper James dresses
You Fat-Shamed Your Beautiful Girlfriend
Glennon Doyle Indigo Girls episode
Sonya Renee Taylor episode
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.
Virginia
Last month, people were like, “tell us your favorite breakfast!” This month, people are like, “can we dive down deep in this rabbit hole?” We’ve got some very rich conversations to get into today. Do you want to read the first one?
Corinne
I do. Okay:
My 4-year-old stepdaughter goes to a wonderful preschool that teaches her phrases like “I get to do what feels good in my body,” presumably in contexts like deciding how much to eat and which physical activities to participate in. However, at home, she deploys these phrases in basically every situation where we tell her no. “No you can’t put muffins in the hot oven,” is met with “it’s my body, I can choose.” When, “I know you want to wear your red dress, but it’s in the wash” set her off on a “but I get to do what feels good in my body” tirade, I tried explaining that getting to decide what feels good in one’s body is only for certain situations. But I totally failed at clarifying this to her satisfaction. Any advice?
Signed, Associate Justice of the Preschool Supreme Court.
Virginia
I love this kid so much. I’m also raising two of these kids. I just feel you because I have had this thrown back at me over toothbrushing. And oh my god, hair brushing! Don’t get me started on the nightmare that is hair brushing in my house.
So I don’t know that I have really good advice because I feel like this is maybe just part of raising someone with body autonomy. Four is an age where they are going to push back. They’re going to start making these arguments. You kind of have to just roll with it, because it’s all part of them getting this autonomy.
Obviously, I get that you didn’t want her to put the muffins in the hot oven and that you cannot take a wet dress out of a washing machine to be worn. These lines also get used over things like car seats or shots, where we have to do this for health and safety.
But often, when my kids throw this at me, I try to take a moment and think, “How can I give them a little more control over the situation?” Sometimes I am trying too hard to control something. Is it the end of the world if they go to school with tangled hair? Probably not.
It comes up a lot with seasonally appropriate dressing. This morning, I suggested that 27 degrees was a morning to wear a hat and mittens and maybe even legwarmers over your leggings to the bus stop. And one of my children felt strongly it was not that weather. But then we got out to the bus stop, she was very cold and very unhappy about it. While it was, of course, not the most fun little journey we went on, I was like well, body autonomy means you get to decide if you’re cold but it also means you can learn from the experience of being cold at the bus stop. Sometimes just giving up and letting them get it wrong can be really helpful. Because maybe they will make a different choice or maybe they will just be cold a lot of the time but that’s okay.
What are your thoughts about this?
Corinne
It just comes down to how much you want to argue, I guess?
Virginia
Well, and there’s no winning an argument with a preschooler.
Corinne
Or how much time or energy you have to put into having a discussion about it.
Virginia
I do think with something like the hot oven, or shots at the doctor, seatbelts—you can have a conversation where you say, “When your health and safety is at stake, grownups who love you make decisions about your body. You are in control of your body, but you’re also a kid and we take care of you. If you’re going to do something that’s dangerous, we have to stop you. But we will always look for as many opportunities for you to have control in that situation.”
With the muffins in the hot oven, could she—even if you’re the one putting the tray in the oven—could she open and close the door for you? Can she preheat the oven and turn the light on and watch the timer and have some other ownership about the experience? With shots at the doctor’s office, they can pick which arm it goes in. They can pick if they want to sit on your lap or not. Claire Lerner, who is a child psychologist I really love, always talks about how you give them two great choices. So you have to do X, but under the umbrella of This Is Happening, you can choose a couple of things.” And I think that can can definitely help.
Otherwise, just be really proud! You’re doing a great job and your kid is going to be awesome at life. This is the price we pay for encouraging them to be in charge of their own bodies.
Corinne
It does seem like the benefit of teaching them about that probably outweighs the really annoying moments. Hopefully, in the long run.
Virginia
I would love teeth brushing and hairbrushing to be less sources of strife in my life.
I can read the next one:
I noticed that when I see myself in a mirror outside my own home, in a public restroom or whatever, I look way fatter than I did at home—sometimes only 20 minutes earlier. Does this ever happen to you? And what do you think is going on? It can feel so upsetting to leave home feeling pretty okay with myself only to be floored by disappointment.
EPISODE CREDITS
Co-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Producer: Kim Baldwin.
Logo design: Deanna Lowe.
Theme Song: Farideh.
Video Editor: Elizabeth Ayiku
Audio Engineer: Tommy Harron
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You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.It’s time for another community episode! As I said in our first community episode on anti-diet resolutions last month, this is a new format we’re experimenting with and I’m thinking of these as Friday Threads for your ears—a chance to hear each other’s stories and perspectives and learn from each other. This month, we’re tackling the new AAP guidelines for the treatment of pediatric ob*sity. This is a story I’ve been following for weeks now; I wrote about it for the NYT and then more extensively here on Burnt Toast, and have also been getting lots of media requests from other outlets. And it has been pretty fucking exhausting, to be honest—because it’s hard to be faced with this brick wall of anti-fatness from an organization we’re supposed to be able to trust, and because, as a semi public figure, it’s also a lot to then deal with the other brick wall of anti-fatness that comes from people on the internet when we talk about these issues. So I want to be clear: This episode is not interested in both sides. The conversation we’re having here today is intended to articulate the harm we are experiencing, as fat people, as parents, as humans concerned about the safety of other humans.I also want us to start brainstorming ways we can advocate for change, both on a broader scale, and in terms of our own interactions with healthcare providers. To that end, Corinne reached out to some expert voices we trust in fat advocacy and the eating disorder community, to give us some bird’s eye view perspective as well. Here’s Dr. Rachel Millner, an eating disorder therapist and fat activist, who previously visited the podcast to talk about the relationship between fatness and trauma. I really appreciate how Rachel roots the problem here in the wild power imbalance that exists between doctors and other medical authorities and fat patients: I think it's easy when we see a long document with lots of references and a list of authors who are physicians or in related fields to make the assumption that the document is complete and actually rooted in science. And that the document is including all of the available research and not just telling one side of the story. Unfortunately, with this document, they are only revealing some of the information and not all of it.One of the really obvious omissions is that they do not list in this document, the ways that the authors financially benefit from bariatric surgery, medications, and weight loss programs for children. They don't tell us. This document does not disclose the financial investment or benefit that these authors have.It also doesn't include all of the research. And a lot of the research they did include is really not adequate, not high quality research studies. I think there's probably a piece of them that know that a lot of people are not going to go through all of the references. But if you do go through the references, you see where they neglected to include so much important information. Corinne did a lot of work on the financial piece of this when we were first getting our arms around this story. Here’s a conversation we had about this back when my NYT piece first ran: Corinne: I looked into all of the authors of the paper and the main thing that stood out to me was everyone has a financial interest in weight loss surgery. Everyone works at or founded a clinic that does weight loss surgery. So, it's just very complicated. And that doesn’t count as something you have to declare.Virginia: Yeah, I think people don't understand that you can be an author on a paper saying that bariatric surgery is good and should be done more and you can make most of your livelihood as a surgeon who performs those surgeries. That is not seen as a conflict of interest, right? Because you are an expert in the field. And that feels really, really tricky.Corinne:You only have to change that a little bit to see the problem. Like, “I'm a plastic surgeon. I'm recommending everyone get plastic surgery.” That sounds like a conflict of interest.Virginia: Right, hammers find nails. And maybe it would be different if we had socialized healthcare and surgeons didn't make so much money from these procedures. If their financial gain was less concretely tied to their ability to sell their services, but doctors are selling consumer services, as well as saving lives or promoting health or whatever grander mission we ascribe to that profession. They are also in a consumer facing business and that is super complicating. And so in a perfect world, they are paid the same regardless of whether they perform the surgeries or don't perform the surgeries, which is sort of impossible to imagine. Or you would only have this research done by people who don't actively benefit directly from the things they're studying.Corinne: Right. And also, financials aside, if the point of the study is to determine whether or not kids should be having weight loss surgery, and you already believe that weight loss surgery is a good thing, you're coming into that very biased. It's not like we're just selecting 10 random people and asking them to consider the literature. These are all people that have already decided that weight loss surgery and weight loss drugs are a net good.I also appreciate that so many of the experts we reached out to were very willing and eager to name the potential for harm. Here’s Rachel again: I want to be clear that these recommendations will cause eating disorders. Usually I say things like contribute to eating disorders, because we know that eating disorders are complicated and there's probably a combination of factors that lead to the development of eating disorders. But I have no doubt that these guidelines will absolutely cause eating disorders.I've never met a fat adult who found a focus on their body size to be helpful. Not once. Every adult I've met who was a higher weight kid has named that focus on their body size, focus on weight loss, lead to shame, self hatred, a lifetime of dieting, a lifetime of harm, not ever feeling better, not ever, having more body satisfaction, not ever having more body trust, and the vast majority of time, not ever leading to a smaller body. So this idea that somehow supporting weight loss in kids is going to lead to them feeling better about themselves is just not accurate. It's just not true.And here’s Elizabeth Davenport, a dietitian who specializes in family feeding and eating disorder prevention, and the co-author of the SunnySide Up Nutrition blog and podcast: The Academy of Pediatrics guidelines are so awful that it's hard to even know where to start. So many kids are going to be harmed. Research shows that one of the biggest predictors developing an eating disorder is dieting, and these guidelines are telling physicians to tell kids in larger bodies to diet and to tell parents that that's what their kids need to do.I can't even count the number of clients I've seen in my career that have come into my office because a pediatrician made a comment about their weight. No child should be told that their body is wrong. And sadly, that's what the Academy of Pediatrics guidelines are doing: Telling kids their bodies are wrong.OK, we’ll hear more from the experts later, but now I want to get to your stories. As Elizabeth says, shameful comments from a healthcare provider can live rent-free in your head for decades, as Lia knows: It took me a really long time to realize that the damage done to my mental health in being ashamed of my weight and being afraid of going to doctors and feeling like I was failing at something because of my weight was much greater than any damage to my physical health that may have come from my weight. And this is obviously before doctors were told that they could prescribe weight loss surgery or weight loss drugs.I also really appreciated that my dear friend Amy Palanjian, who regular listeners know well from previous podcast episodes, reached out to talk about what these guidelines mean for her as an eating disorder survivor and as an influencer trying to make ethical content on Kid Food Instagram: It's taken me a while to even be able to acknowledge the guidelines because it's felt like a personal attack. I was a straight size kid on the edge of being in a larger body and wound up with a 15 year eating disorder because by the time I was 12, I was deemed too big, and also too slow, by adults around me. I don't remember my doctor being in that group, but I can't imagine how much worse it would have been had she been.I feel like my family, some of whom are in larger bodies, are being personally attacked now and targeted with this. I cannot understand how “experts” can lay out the research and explain how weight loss pursuits don't work, and then double down on it as the solution. I also don't understand how it can be offered as a solution if it's not actually accessible or affordable to the majority of the families.Iworry about how this will potentially be monetized by influencers online.I worry about how much harder this will make feeding kids in general.And I don't know how to feel about all the other AAP guidelines I have long quoted as I feel like they are now not a very reliable source of information. I clearly have a lot of feelings about this.Amy isn’t the only parent wondering whether we can trust the AAP guidance in general now. I think the AAP has done a lot of good, but I think this is a fair question. Here are Ellen and Katie: On top of all of the concerns and outrage that I have, that so many of us have, I find myself wondering how I'm supposed to still consider the AAP a voice of reason and trust.This isn't the first time I've questioned their guidance. For example, I think they recommend that you keep an infant in the room with its parents for up to a year, is what they recommend. With my son, we lasted eight weeks before we moved him into his nursery, and it saved my mental health.So I'm familiar with going against the grain when it comes to the AAP’s recommendations. But there's something about these recommendations that just absolutely reeks of profit seeking, of ignorance disguised as empathy, of seeming to care about our children, while actively refusing to acknowledge the mountains of evidence around eating disorders, and anti-fat bias, and all of the harm that those things can cause at any age.I think if we've learned anything, during the pandemic, we've learned about the precariousness of science in our culture, and the fragility of trusted medical voices. We don't need more medical institutions to be this out of touch with reality because it runs the risk of more people abandoning science, of ignoring actual sound recommendations that do exist. Parenting is hard enough. It just makes me sad and my eyes are watering now just thinking about it all. I am sad for the little girl that I was, and the harmful impact that these guidelines would have had on me in a world that was already so critical, and so quick to want me to change my body. And I'm really sad for my own kids. Now as a mom, for whom I've done so much work on myself to be a better more supportive parent. And all the work that I've done just to support them differently than I was. And it feels like all that work I've done is for naught. If these external influences, including people with quote authority, are so contrary and loud.So my two kids are under four. And I have navigated a global pandemic, a formula shortage, infant and child pain reliever shortage, and more. And each event causes me to lose trust in these institutions that I thought were supposed to work for and with me as a parent and not against me, and I feel like now I'm adding the AAP to that list of institutions that have lost my trust.Lots of you have told us how these guidelines make taking your child to the doctor feel unsafe. Here are Kate and Sarah with their stories: As a parent of three children, two daughters and a son, I am increasingly concerned about taking my kids to the doctor in this environment.As an adult, I refuse to look at the weight when I’m at the doctor, I refuse to let them talk to me about my weight when I'm at the doctor. I have a history of eating disorders and exercise addiction and I can't have a scale in my house. So going to the doctor is a fraught experience for me.I hate that they weigh my children when they go to the doctor. And at my last appointment, I went to with my teenager and my 11 year old. My teenager wanted to meet with the doctor by herself to talk about her periods and stuff like that, she didn't want her little sister in the room. And afterwards, she was really kind of upset about the appointment. And she said that the doctor talked to her about her BMI. I was absolutely horrified. I'm now having to decide whether I talk to the doctor about it or if I switch doctors again. I am really nervous about taking my kids to the doctor right now. And I think that's really sad as a parent. When they were little it was a it was kind of a joyous experience getting into check in on how they're doing, how is their health, and now I look at it as kind of a hostile situation.I worry all the time that one of my daughter's earliest memories might be a doctor telling her that she is overweight, too big, too fat. From the very first well visits that I took her on as a baby, as an infant, we were told that she was abnormally large, too large, too big. I was asked, as her mother, what was I feeding her. I was told that my answers weren't sufficient. I saw in her medical charts that the doctors didn't necessarily believe me or my husband. We tried alternating who was taking her to see if we would get a different reaction out of the doctors. We went through three doctors, three pediatricians. And they referred us to multiple different specialists, nutritionists, endocrinologists, and we had many sleepless nights worrying, was there something wrong with our child? Our only child, our first child. Every specialist that we finally got in with laughed at us. Kindly, they said, “Why have you brought me a fat baby? There is nothing wrong with this child. I have other patients to see. Thank you so much for coming in.”The irony is that all this time, my daughter had a very serious rare condition that was being completely overlooked. She had a skin condition that was keeping her up nights. She eventually went on to develop asthma. And I believe that the doctors focusing so much on her weight caused them to completely disregard what I was telling them was a problem. The only recommendations the doctors were giving me were to take her to specialists to reconsider how much I was feeding her. I'm still getting over how traumatizing the experience was as a new mom who was suffering from postpartum anxiety. And here’s Oona Hanson, an amazing parent educator and eating disorder recovery advocate who I learn so much from: I can't stop thinking about the toll these medications and weight loss surgeries will have on children in terms of their GI system. Knowing the side effects of these interventions, all I can think about is the emotional and physical torment more kids will endure in ways that will have an immeasurable impact on their self image, their relationships, and their ability to learn. This cruelty disguised as health care is appalling. It's one example of the way prioritizing shrinking a child's body temporarily seems to matter more to this committee than the child's actual health and wellbeing.I'm…
Full show notes at the publisherI'm teaching this class and it's kind of a joke, because you can do whatever you want. Like, you're here. I'm giving you a guideline to what I'm doing. This is how I'm rolling on the floor today, this is how it looks when I do it. It doesn't have to look the same when you do it.You're listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.Today I'm chatting with Lauren Leavell! Lauren is a trainer and fitness instructor based in Philadelphia, and the creator of Leavell Up Fitness a body positive and weight-inclusive fitness network that makes working out accessible and fun.I am a big fan of Lauren's work. I have been doing her barre and strength training classes for the last few months. To be clear: I pay for her classes, I am delighted to support her work. This isn't sponsored content. I just really love Lauren's approach to exercise and movement. And I wanted her to come chat with us a bit about that philosophy and her experiences navigating fitness culture and finding such a new, and frankly revolutionary, way through it. So here's Lauren!Episode 80 TranscriptLaurenMy name is Lauren Leavell. I am a Black woman. I use she/her pronouns. And I'm located in the city of Philadelphia. I was born and raised in LA but moved to Philadelphia for love. And I am a fitness instructor.I consider myself a weight neutral fitness instructor, meaning the goals and the language that I use is not around weight loss and bodies and aesthetics. I really am not too worried about what people are doing when they're not with me, because they're only with me for pretty much 45 minutes every time they see me. And I really focus on joyful movement and connectedness to your body.VirginiaFor everyone listening: I am a Lauren super fan. I've been doing her barre classes for a few months now. So this is a big thrill for me to get to hang out with you for a little bit! I'm just going to fangirl for a moment and say I have done a lot of other barre classes and it is very hard to find—particularly with barre, but in every fitness arena—a class where there is not something I have to be like “I didn’t want to hear you say that.” To realize this is a safe space and there's none of that and it's just not part of what we're here to do is such a relief. I just really want to thank you for doing that.How did you get into this and what makes you determined to do it in this different way that you're doing it?LaurenYeah, you are so welcome! I tend to attract people who are just like me, obviously. You get this theme going with the people that you have come into my membership or into my social media, that they're interested in what I'm interested in. So it's become a really good group. I really appreciate the people who are in there.I started working out at 19—I just turned 31, so that's a little math problem there. I started for the reasons that a lot of 19-year-old women, in particular, start working out. And I was not an athletic child. I might have been. I came from a family, a long line of non-athletic people.VirginiaI relate to this deeply.LaurenIt was never a thing. Like, we weren't sports people. We weren't athletic people. My family, their forms of movement are cleaning and gardening. That's their jam. And that's real! Like, that is legitimate, but they just weren't into anything else. So the children were also not into anything else.But yeah, I started working out and I kind of fell in love with movement, separate from the unhealthy and disordered other things that I was doing. So those two things really never tainted each other. I was like, “Oh, I love going to the gym. Even though I'm doing all this other stuff that probably is very unhealthy for me, this still feels fun. I feel really connected to this.”When I started to recover and started to realize that I didn't want to live that way anymore, I never was one of those people who was like, I have to stop exercising. I was like, no, I actually still really, really, really enjoy this. And this is really something that I love. And I think that it can be done without the pressure and the standards and the goals that I was using on myself. There's got to be another way.So I started doing that and then I went to a barre class. It totally kicked my butt. And then I was like, what is barre? And I started digging and I was like, “Oh this doesn't look like me at all.” And I took that as a challenge. So I decided to get certified because I was like, there's gotta be people out here who want to take this class, who wouldn't feel comfortable if they didn't have an instructor who maybe didn't look like them? Or did not use that language—“toning” and “lengthening” and “shredding” and all the other things. I didn't want to do that.I was like, what if people just want to come here and have fun and get their butts kicked like I did? And so that's where it started. And then I got certified as a personal trainer, and I have a corrective exercise certification under that which really just was a little bit more in depth on how to help folks who are coming off of injuries or any other thing, which is really important to me to try to make things as accessible as possible in a group fitness class, which is kind of an oxymoron. But like we're doing, we're doing our best over here to make as many accommodations and I'm fully aware that not everyone is going to find something every class that clicks with them.VirginiaI'm interested in separating your love of moving your body from the diet culture/disordered piece of it. There are so many layers to that, right?I'm someone who also grew up very un-athletic, in a fairly un-athletic family, and just didn't think of myself as someone who enjoyed movement, period. So then I got into it in a really diet-y way. I've been on this process of, do I even like it? Can I like it now that I'm not doing it in this other context? I'm just so interested that you were able to hold onto what you did love about it and strip away the other stuff. I think that's a really tricky process for a lot of us. I'd love to hear a little more about what made you realize this part of it is good for me, even though this other stuff doesn't serve me. LaurenI do hear that all the time. I have a lot of folks who are in membership who are like, this is like my first try into into movement again after I set it down for a while, after I had an injury.VirginiaBecause that’s really necessary sometimes. Like, really necessary. LaurenOh, totally. I don't want to gloss over that as a step for many people. And I have many, many, many close friends for whom that was their step. They were just like, “peace, see you never, exercise!” For me, I don't know if it was the feel good endorphins, I don't know if it was a thing that made me feel super independent and super connected—I didn't feel like I grew up having a good communication with my body. I felt like everybody else's outside input and communication about my body was the narrative around my body. And when I was exercising, I felt like that didn't matter. Because they weren't the ones picking up the weights. They weren't the ones walking on the treadmill. They weren't the ones doing all those things. It was really a form of independence for me, and reconnection, which is what I try to stress to people when they're moving with me.I'm teaching this class and it's kind of a joke because you can do whatever you want. You're here, I'm giving you a guideline to what I'm doing. This is how I'm rolling on the floor today. This is how it looks when I do it. It doesn't have to look the same when you do it. Because I want people to feel 45 minutes of connectedness with their body or 45 minutes of trust in who they are.And I think that's really the thread that kept me in it: I feel like myself doing this and I feel independent, I feel strong. And I feel like I can make those decisions, which a lot of times in a lot of different areas of our life, we don't maybe feel like we can do that.So I think that that's what held me to this. I had to change. I changed the form of exercise that I was doing. I went from working out alone in a gym doing really, really intense workouts to doing barre. And barre is really intense, but it was in a group and it was somebody else was leading it. So I got to just do that and connect with my body and connect with those moves. But I changed the setting and changed the scene and it allowed me to evolve into a new space where I was like okay, yeah, I could do this, too.VirginiaI love the idea of movement as a means to achieving body independence. That's really powerful. It takes it out of the traditional framework so completely that you were able to find that. We should also say, just for folks listening: I always want to put out there that you don't have to find movement enjoyable. That's not a moral obligation. There's a lot of movement I don't find enjoyable. And there may be other paths to feeling independent and in control of your body. But it's awesome that movement can be one of those paths for people.LaurenAnd I acknowledge that there is just so much ableism and, honestly, every other -ism in fitness, that it's not for everybody. I know fitness and exercise can be really scary and really triggering things to talk about. And I'm here to stand in that space and be like, it’s okay. We could do other things. It can look different.VirginiaWell, that really comes through in how you talk about modifications. You present them as these morally neutral options. You always say something like, “maybe you're here, maybe you're here,” like you're showing us the different options. That's one of those things that I hadn't even realized other instructors I've worked with did differently until I heard you doing it. It's not “do you need to take it slower today?” or “can you challenge yourself to do the harder version?” and presenting the harder version as more advanced or as the ideal to shoot for. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you think about that piece of it.LaurenI think that I do still want to present a challenge in these options that I give to people because that's where you're going to explore your own comfort zone. It's never that you have to do it. I don't know what you find challenging. I don't know what you find comfortable. So here are three or four things that you could do. And you could find three out of four of them to be completely for you, and one of them to be like I'm never ever ever going to do this in my life, or vice versa. So you have that one thing that you connect with. There are things that have been told to me that are supposed to be either very easy or very difficult and I just don't feel that way about them in general. Maybe I'm able to do that pretty easily without a lot of practice. So when you feel that way, maybe there really isn't anything to separating these into difficult and easy. VirginiaRight, because that might look different for everyone.LaurenRight. Why can I do this and I've never done this before? It's clearly a very individual thing. So I think that allowing people to choose their own adventure is super important. Because when I'm like, '“I'm really sweating,” or “I'm feeling this here,” I may have an intention for you to feel moves in your arms. But some people will be like, “my ankles are feeling this.” And I'm like, “That’s not necessarily wrong! We are standing. You're standing and using your ankles, so it's not wrong to feel that way.”I think presenting options and allowing people the space to be like, if you've been doing it here, maybe you try doing it here. What would happen if you just did it here for two seconds and we'll see what happens. And they're like, No, I didn't like it. Okay, now go back to doing the other way.VirginiaI love the curiosity and the openness to exploration as opposed to feeling like you're a failure because you didn't do it in this one certain way. It's a really good reframing.LaurenYeah. It allows you to evolve day to day, which I think is the other thing that we don't often talk about. Just because you're able to do, I don't know, a handstand or a headstand today, doesn't mean—We're not doing those in my membership. Please don't think that we're doing those. But just because you're able to do that today, doesn't mean you're gonna be able to do that tomorrow. Just because you're able to forward fold and touch your toes today, doesn't mean you're gonna be able to do that tomorrow. There's so many things that come up day to day that change how you feel about movement that having those options is less judgmental than just being like, “Yesterday I did this. Why can’t I do it today?”VirginiaI've had a complicated relationship in my life with ab work because: diet culture, and I think abs are a place a lot of us have all of that come up.One upshot of that is that I just didn't do ab work for years and years. When I started to get out of my disordered relationship with exercise, that was one I really had to put down and walk away from. The downside of that was that my back got pretty messed up because I also had two children during that time and put my back and my core through quite a lot. And that's something that your classes have been really helpful to me and physical therapy. I've been, really this whole past year, on this kind of journey of trying to figure out how to reclaim core work in a non-diet way and I would just love to hear your thoughts about how you think about core work in particular, but also any other type of exercise that you see being really coopted by diet culture and framed as about aesthetics. How do we think about reclaiming these things? LaurenI think that you just told the story of reclaiming it, because you said, “I put it down and my back felt some type of way.”I think that there's so much in traditional training where they're like, “don't use these technical terms and don't overcomplicate your classes by telling them too much about what they're doing.” And actually, I want to tell them everything about they are what they're doing. They want you to use this flowery language and then people don't understand the importance of it.When I talk about core work, I want people to know that when you're feeling things in your core and when you're activating your core, you can help preserve your low back. I want them to know that when they're working their glutes, it's not about aesthetics, it's also about your low back. When you're working your lats, it's also about your low back. So, we have so many of these common aches and pains and things that really just go with lifestyle and aging and all of those things. We don't realize that if we took the aesthetic part out of these exercises and explained them to people as, “This is the thing that could help with your knee pain. It's not about growing the biggest booty, it's about those muscles actually firing and moving your body.”hat is my reframe, it's actually getting into it and being like, no, this is real. This can help your pelvic floor. We don't talk about pelvic floors a ton. Well, now they're getting popular, pelv…
Full show notes at the publisherI just want to push people to be more specific about: Which culture? Whose culture? Because that wasn’t my culture. You’re listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.Today I am chatting with Dominic Bradley.Raised in the crunk-era "Dirty South," Dominic Cinnamon Bradley is a Brooklyn-based Black disabled queer visual artist, writer, and performer. In 2021 they were a RiseOut Activist-in-Residence fellow focusing on creating resources and conversation about mental health on behalf of BIPOC LGBTQIA+ New Yorkers.Dominic is also a freelance sensitivity and authenticity reader who has worked with various publishing houses —and I was incredibly lucky to have Dominic as the sensitivity reader for Fat Talk. Sensitivity reads are a somewhat new, and very important, part of the book publishing process. So I thought it would be really interesting to have a conversation about what a sensitivity reader does and what it adds to the book—and also have you all get to know Dominic a little bit more, because they are amazing.I’ll also take a minute to remind you to preorder Fat Talk if you haven’t already!You can preorder your signed copy from my favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!1). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books.And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible. (I’m recording this at the end of the month, so more on that process soon!)I wrote last fall about why preorders are so crucial, but let’s review:Publishers use preorders to decide how much to invest in a book in terms of its marketing and publicity. This directly corresponds to the amount of media buzz a book generates (think NPR interviews, TV appearances, and prestigious book reviews—all of which contribute in their own way to preorders and sales once the book is out). Retailers use preorders (and that related media buzz) to gauge how many copies of the book to stock in stores, and whether or not to display the book prominently in the window, on the new arrivals table, etc. Amazon and other online retailers use preorders to decide how hard to push a book on their homepage or new release lists. All of this also drives future sales, because people who see the book while book shopping, are much more likely to buy it than people who cannot see it. And: It’s pretty rare to make a bestseller list without strong preorders. That’s because preorders all count towards your first week of sales—and that’s when most authors make a list. Preorder FAT TALK!I hope this conversation with Dominic makes you feel even better about supporting the book that Burnt Toast built. We are almost exactly three months away from pub date, so there is a lot more book talk to come (about events and giveaways and some great newsletter-only perks and behind-the-scenes access!). Thank you for being down for this piece of things. It means so so much to share this process with you all.Episode 79 TranscriptDominicI am based in Brooklyn. I’m a visual artist, a writer, sometimes performer. And I also happen to do freelance work for publishing houses in regards to what’s known as sensitivity reads or authenticity reads.VirginiaDo you have a preferred term, sensitivity or authenticity?DominicI use them interchangeably.VirginiaWhat got you into doing sensitivity reads in the first place? I’m curious to hear the backstory.DominicPurely by accident. It was happenstance, really. There was an author who was not connected to a publishing house that I read for. Then there was an editorial firm that I read for and gradually I started to get deeper and deeper into it, until I ended up in a binder full of sensitivity readers. I was in several databases. That’s really how it happened.VirginiaWhich is so odd to think about, but yup, that makes sense. There are these binders full of people. Well, you really have a gift for it. Your notes were incredibly helpful on Fat Talk. You and I were connected by the folks at my publisher, Henry Holt. You just completed a sensitivity reading of Fat Talk. It was really important to me to have a sensitivity read on this book for a lot of reasons. I did have to nudge the publisher a little, but they were very open to it. It’s an increasingly standard part of their process. But I was like, “We’re doing this, right?” And they were like, “Yes, yes, we’ll do it.” So why don’t we start by having you explain what is the sensitivity or authenticity read and what’s the purpose?DominicThe purpose of a sensitivity read or an authenticity read is to have someone with fresh eyes look at an author’s manuscript. And we’re looking for specific things. Let’s say that the author has a main character, or even a secondary character, that they’ve written that is outside of their own lived experience. They want feedback on making sure that those characters are as three dimensional as possible and that’s where I come in as a reader.VirginiaI can see for fiction this being so valuable to help flesh out characters and give the really true context of their lives in that way. And what about nonfiction?DominicI think that nonfiction can be approached much the same way. But in nonfiction, you’re not really assessing a character per se. What you’re assessing is, are these facts full-bodied? Are you getting the entire picture? Are there other things to know about this event, this place, this person, that the author may not have been clued into, because the author, again, does not have the lived experience?VirginiaWhat are some of the challenges of doing this work?DominicOne challenge of doing the work is you’re very likely to encounter something that’s going to upset you. I think the other challenge would be trying to give feedback that propels the author forward, rather than “I don’t like this,” or “you should take this out,” or “this is bad.”VirginiaYes. “This is bad” is always a hard note to receive.DominicYes. So, attempting to go beyond that. For example, there was one manuscript where darkness had become synonymous with evil. So, just pointing out, “I’ve seen you do this a lot and you’re falling into this trope which has already been widely discussed and you may want to rethink how you approach that.”VirginiaYes. Do you think it was a, for lack of a better term, a blind spot of that writer, that they hadn’t put that together? Is that what you often find, authors are just not aware that they need to be sensitive to this? Or are there times where their bias is leading, so to speak?DominicYou know, it’s hard to speculate about that sometimes. In most cases, I would say, it’s lack of awareness, rather than someone leading with their biases, just because all of these things are baked into our society. It is pretty much the path of least resistance. I think that authors find themselves relying on these stereotypes and tropes sometimes without even being fully conscious of what they’re doing.VirginiaAnd it is uncomfortable to have your biases named, but we’re never going to make progress if we can’t sit in that discomfort and learn from it and really deal with how it’s coming out. You mentioned another challenge is the toll it can take on you, that you may read something that’s triggering or upsetting to you. Do you have any strategies for how you navigate that? How do you take care of yourself?DominicSometimes the way that I might be triggered by an author’s manuscript is not immediately obvious. Sometimes it’s very subtle. I pay attention to what I’m feeling. And sometimes it’s just a passage that I read it, and I’m like, something doesn’t feel right with this. I read it over. I sit with it to try to see if I can articulate what it is specifically that is troubling and that has turned out to be a good exercise.VirginiaThat makes sense. Both in terms of helping you identify what feedback you want to give to the author about why it’s troubling, but also for your own process around it. DominicYes. VirginiaThis potential for harm to ourselves is a tricky piece of this work. I mean, Fat Talk, as you know, is a book about anti-fat bias, which meant in the research of the book, I was often interviewing people who held really significant anti-fat bias. And as a fat person, it’s not fun to have those conversations but it felt like such an important part of doing the work. So I can relate a little bit to what you’re talking about there in terms of like, how do you protect yourself. When the work needs to happen.One comment from you that struck me early on, when I got the manuscript back, and was first sitting down to look at the notes—the comment that right off the bat, I was, like, “oh, this is going to be very useful” was, I think, in the introduction. I’d written something like, “our culture teaches us that the ideal body is thin,” and you just wrote, “Do you mean white culture?”And I was like, Oh. Yes. This is what I need. I’m not realizing I need to specify which culture I’m talking about. Because my white privilege lets me assume everyone knows what I mean by culture.DominicYeah, I think that’s common. And you know, I just want to push people to be more specific about: Which culture? Whose culture? Because that wasn’t my culture. The impulse to number one, not name this as white culture and number two, to position it as universal, that’s common unfortunately.VirginiaWell, it was a really helpful note and it helped me then go through and look for other instances where I was doing that and tighten it up a little bit, hopefully.There is also a section where I deal with Michelle Obama, who is a really complicated person in the conversation of anti-fat bias. And your notes there were also just incredibly helpful, because it helped me realize how important it was to acknowledge her personal experiences both in the conversations around the fatphobia that she experienced and anti-black racism and sexism. And you really helped me sharpen that up a lot. So I really appreciated that, because I was mindful that I didn’t have the right lived experience to do her justice, if that makes sense. DominicYeah, I actually remember that part. Again, I want to be careful not to absolve her of responsibility for the way that she approached these campaigns. But it’s also important to realize that Michelle Obama’s body and her daughter’s bodies were going to be scrutinized in a way that was unprecedented, because they’re Black women. And also, that politically speaking, she was going to be funneled to whatever the administration deemed least controversial, least offensive. It gets a little bit complicated.VirginiaYeah. And in introducing her, I think I identified her as like “a beloved public figure.” And you were like, “Um. She was not universally beloved.”DominicNot at all. Yeah, she was called all kinds of — monkey, all kinds of things—and like, they went for her.VirginiaHorrendous. And again, it was just an example of, oh, Virginia, you’re in your little liberal bubble where everybody worships Michelle Obama. Which is one piece of this, but you cannot describe her as universally beloved. So that was such a helpful note and then helping me sharpen the sections where I did talk about the stigma she experienced. And the piece about the administration was such an excellent point and how they couldn’t give her any topic that would look like she was honestly like doing anything overtly political, right? Because she was already under such scrutiny that it would have led to such a backlash.And then, of course, what does it say that we’ve decided that an “uncontroversial” issue we can give her is childhood obesity, even though that should not be a neutral topic. So being a sensitivity reader is definitely not your only gig. I read in your bio that you are a recovering social worker and also an artist who works in visual art, writing, and performance. I would love to know more about that work and particularly how your art intersects with your mental health work.DominicIn 2021, I had a fellowship with the LGBT Center in Manhattan. It’s called the RiseOut Activist-in-Residence fellowship, where I developed this mental health initiative that has three parts to it. The first was the development of an adult coloring book featuring members of the community with mental health affirmations on it. And then the second was a wellness demo video on how to create a one page wellness plan using visual note taking techniques. And then the third component was actually a panel composed of four community members who were talking about transgenerational strengths when it comes to mental health.VirginiaOoh, say more about transgenerational strengths around mental health.DominicThere is a quote, I think it can be attributed to to a person named Xavier Dagba. But that quote, I’m paraphrasing, said, “Your ancestors gave you more than just wounds.” They gave you strengths, also. So I curated some questions to dig more deeply into that theme and it was a good discussion.VirginiaIt’s such a powerful reframing of the way these stories too often get told. And is the coloring book something that’s still available for folks?DominicI still have a lot of books left from this first print run. And I would love to give them away to people. With everything that’s been happening, I have not had a chance to go out and bring my books, give my spiel. VirginiaIt’s a lot of work.DominicAnd get them in the hands of people who will use them.VirginiaGreat. So folks who are interested can get in touch. Do you have any projects you’re either working on now or thinking about working on in the future that you’re excited about? DominicI can say broadly that I am working on, I want to work on, some visual things. And I’m also interested in working on some writing. I don’t want to say more because I don’t want to jinx it. VirginiaTotally hear you. DominicSo I’ll leave it at that. But yes, there are some things that I very much am hoping to complete this winter. VirginiaAmazing. Well, we will certainly be waiting to see it and celebrate it when you’re ready for it to be in the world. And I know that process can be circuitous at best. ButterDominicWell, I am excited about a purchase that’s coming. Now both of us wear glasses, right?VirginiaYes, and I’ve been admiring your glasses this whole conversation.DominicSee, what I like to do is to get my eyes checked and get the information about the prescription. And then I go to fun websites like Zeelool, Zenni, VoogueMe, and I go on a mini shopping spree in which I can get the cutest prescription frames. So, these just came a day or so ago and I have another pair that’s coming in a little while. Right now I’m in the midst of building my glasses collection back up because my prescription changed a little bit. And it’s slowly but surely, though, yes. So that that’s kind of a quirk of mine is getting all these glasses. VirginiaWe have this deeply in common, Dominic. I have many pairs of glasses. I did not know, however, about these online shopping options. So I’m very excited you shared this.I just want to share it for listeners because they won’t be able to see you. Dominic’s glasses are like a tortoise shell on top—is that right? And then yellow on the bottom half. And folks who know me know I have a tortoise shell with a light blue on the bottom half that’s like my favorite pair. So I’ve been obsessed the whole conversation, like they come in yellow! There’s a yellow pair! They’re so good. I have a local glasses shop that’s really wonderful and so I usually like get my eyes checked there and then buy their glasses, but you just opened up a whole world of possibility.DominicA whole world. You can be free. VirginiaThis is exciting. Yeah, there’s gonna be some some damage done to the credit cards.DominicNo, but the great thi…
Full show notes at the publisherYou’re listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health. I am Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.And it’s time for your January Ask Us Anything with Corinne. This is a good one! We are getting into language around weight, cozy clothes, how to be a good ally, how to raise your thin kids not to be assholes to fat people. It’s really all here. You’re going to enjoy it.Quick reminder that if you’d like to support the show, we love ratings and reviews in Apple Podcast! It does so much to help other listeners find the pod.Episode 78 TranscriptVirginiaSo we’re going to do some New Year’s questions. CorinneHappy New Year’s! Happy 2023!VirginiaThis is that artificial podcaster thing. Corinne and I are still in December. We’re recording in advance. CorinneMentally, we’re already in 2023.VirginiaSo we’re going to do some New Year’s questions because folks sent them in. The New Year’s thing both is the same every year and also a new level of hell every year. Is that how you feel about it?CorinneMy birthday is also in January so I feel like the December/New Year’s/birthday is always just a whirlwind of trying to fix my life and failing.VirginiaYou’re forced to take stock in all these different ways you don’t really want to be doing.CorinneI feel like if you have a birthday in another part of the year, you get another chance to reset during the year. But I have to do it all in January.VirginiaYou don’t get another shot for twelve months. That’s it. CorinneIt’s my only chance to do any planning, goal setting.VirginiaThat’s funny. Well, happy birthday! By the time this airs, it will have happened.CorinneI am now… 37.VirginiaYou can say it out loud. This is a pro-aging podcast.CorinneI’m the age where you have to do math to remember how old you are.VirginiaFor sure. I’ve been there for a while and it doesn’t get easier.CorinneQ: Do you have any ideas about fun ways to buffer yourself from New Year’s, New You diet culture bullshit?VirginiaI don’t know if it’s fun, but I do think it’s a good time to spend a little less time online, because that’s where the noise is. Making plans that will give you something to do other than doom scroll.CorinneI was going to say take a little time to unsubscribe from every email that says “New Year, New You.”VirginiaThere can be something so satisfying about using that as a catalyst because some brands you don’t think are terrible and then you get their January email and they show you their true colors. So it’s a nice opportunity. And it can be very cathartic to be like “unsubscribe, goodbye.”CorinneI sort of like the part of New Year that’s reflecting on last year and planning for the year ahead. So I think it can be fun to do some goal setting or planning.VirginiaI agree. This is something I want to think more about and maybe write about at some point. Because I do think it’s like a chicken and egg thing. Is the New Year opportunity to reset and reflect, is that something diet culture invented? Or is it something diet culture co-opted? You know what I mean?Corinne Yeah, definitely. VirginiaAnd if it’s the latter, then there’s something powerful in reclaiming it because I am someone who sets goals for the year. They tend to be work-related. But sometimes I set a personal goal or intention. CorinneEven like, go on a vacation.VirginiaOr I want to get into a fun new hobby, like knitting or puzzles. I think there can be something really great about that. But it’s so easy for all of these things to get twisted, right? CorinneOne goal I had last year was to pick up the dog poop in my backyard as it happened, rather than like…VirginiaLetting it pile up and then being like, yeah, we’ve got to do it?CorinneIt’s too gross to even talk about, but yeah.VirginiaI think a lot of pet owners see you. We have a litter box that can get similar.CorinneYeah. But now I’m thinking about what KC Davis was saying about if it works for you, maybe just let it work for you.VirginiaIf this is your system, embrace that it’s your system. That was so helpful. So that’s actually an interesting twist on the New Year’s thing, too. Instead of setting a goal to change something, can you set a goal to give yourself permission to keep doing something?CorinneRight! Or just accept the way you are. VirginiaJust be like, this is something that works for me even though it is perhaps unconventional or doesn’t match up to whatever standards. Oh, I like that a lot. Q: What was your best New Year’s Eve, and maybe your worst?You’re laughing, so you go first. CorinneI’m laughing but I feel like I don’t have a great answer! For me New Year’s Eve is always one of those holidays where you have really high expectations and it’s always a letdown. My best in recent memory was like a couple of years ago when I had no plans for New Year’s Eve and I just had friends over for dinner and we had a very chill dinner and did a little tarot card reading.VirginiaOh, that sounds so nice.CorinneIt was very fun and last minute and easy. And worst? God I’m sure there is a worst and and nothing is coming to mind. I’m sure involved a terrible hangover on January 1. VirginiaI am weirdly romantic about New Year’s Eve and I blame Forrest Gump. I feel like when I saw Forrest Gump, there’s that scene where they’re like counting down New Year’s in the bar and the hooker—I think she’s a hooker? I don’t want to make assumptions. The lady that he was talking to gets this kind of wistful look on her face and she says everyone gets a second chance at New Year’s. It’s like a core memory from my childhood. She’s a truth speaker and so I’ve always been kind of romantic about New Years. But that led to being very disappointed about New Year’s plans often. CorinneYeah, it seems like it should be this really cool thing and it’s always like, well everyone is tired from Christmas.VirginiaBut I will say when we were in our 20s and we lived in New York City still—I actually might totally be retconning this—we did throw a New Year’s party every year and I have memories of it being this epic time and that I did have a few of those new year’s that were like, the big party, beautiful memory. I don’t know if that’s actually right or if I just like to look back on that.CorinneSomeone from Virginia’s past needs to write in and let us know. VirginiaI mean, I know for sure there was one where… oh, I might get a text about this. Amy Palanjian and I split a bottle of tequila. This is a hilarious story for everyone who follows Yummy Toddler Food.CorinneKeep going. I feel like there’s more to that story.VirginiaOkay I’m telling the story because it’s mostly humiliating for me, not Amy. Dan was in a comedy group and he was performing so we had to go to a late night comedy show, which is like a big ask for me and my attention span and feelings about improv comedy. Dan is very funny, but improv comedy is a mixed bag.So we were going out to the show and then on to a party, and she came over to get ready with me. And we made some cocktail that was tequila-based and many other kinds of juices and put it in—because also Amy’s very outdoorsy— a Nalgene bottle for hiking. So it was hard to manage your intake. And that is the night where at the show I got thrown up on by a drunker person.CorinneI really thought you were going to be the one doing that.VirginiaWell, the rest of the night took a turn and my only memory is lying on the sidewalk and having to be escorted home. It was terrible.CorinneOh no! Laying on the sidewalk is serious.VirginiaI’ve never drank tequila since. I have zero interest. Zero. Oh wait, is tequila in margaritas?Corinne Yes. VirginiaOkay, so I’ve had a little bit.Corinne But never out of a Nalgene again. VirginiaNever out of a Nalgene. And what I will say, just to shore up her brand now is I think Amy was a really good mom even then. This was was well before kids. And I think she took very good care of me.CorinneShe made you Yummy Toddler Food for your hangover?VirginiaWell, she also made the cocktail in the Nalgene bottle. It was early recipe testing days. CorinneI did just see her post about things to feed your sick toddler. Now I’m imagining her handing all those things to you.VirginiaBeing like, “Do you need pastina soup?” And actually, that would be great. Amy is totally the friend to take care of you hungover. But anyway, that might have been my worst New Year’s. But also, I don’t know. I survived it. These days my house is pretty booze free. I can have half a glass of wine and I will have a migraine the next day. My relationship with alcohol was never really like that and it has never been that again. For a few years after we left the city, we got together with friends, with Amy’s family, and a couple other good friends. And then we finally all had too many children and we couldn’t all fit in one house and so that disbanded. Now it tends to be a pretty quiet night for us and I think I have a little bit of sadness of oh, those epic party days are gone but also. No one looks back and misses laying on the sidewalk.CorinneYeah, and maybe those days will come back around when you’re in your sixties.VirginiaI hope to never to drink tequila out of a Nalgene bottle again. Absolutely not. But I do enjoy a nice dinner party or something low key. Your night sounds perfect.Okay, this reader wants to know if we have recommendations for socks that don’t dig into thicker calves.CorinneOkay, so, I have a few things to say about this. The first thing is, just personally, I wear ankle socks, which don’t go to your calves and therefore don’t dig into them. I’ve been enjoying the Madewell ankle socks. They’re just like a thicker ankle sock. However, the other thing that you should know about this is there is a whole wealth of socks that don’t dig into your calves because they are diabetes socks. VirginiaOh, so smart. CorinneThey are designed to not impede circulation in any way. So, they don’t have elastic at the top, or they’re sort of like a stretchier knit. So you can just Google “diabetic socks” and you’ll get a whole slew of socks that are looser fitting.VirginiaThis is such a good tip. That’s really excellent. CorinneI don’t have any specific brand recommendations, but you’ll find them. I know Maggie’s Organics that everyone loves and like they make diabetic socks. So check it out.VirginiaPerfect. I also just mostly do ankle socks. I blame skinny jeans for that, because once the skinny jeans trend happened there’s no socks you can pull up under a skinny jean. CorinneAnd with shorts, I think I just prefer the way ankle socks feel and look.VirginiaYou sometimes do want taller sock with boots. CorinneAnother thing I’ve been seeing is brands advertising slouchy socks, which I think might be the same.VirginiaLike from the 80s?CorinneYeah, that like scrunch down.VirginiaThat Reminds me of The Baby-Sitters Club with their triple slouch socks, which is a look I really leaned into in the 80’s. CorinneYou can lean back into it. VirginiaThat’s exciting. I just bought a big hair claw, one of the big banana clip kind of claws. I’m really here for 80’s accessories returning. CorinneQ: Cozy clothes?I feel like we’ve had a cozy clothes question every month. But we do have some new cozy recommendations.VirginiaWell, last month we talked about coats so I think this time we should talk about indoor loungewear coziness which is a different category. I don’t want to necessarily wear like a big sweater. I’m actually wearing a sweater today and I’m really hot. It’s reminding me that don’t want to be doing that. I actually want breathable cozy clothes versus heavy wool sweaters. I think I want to be cozy and then I’m just boiling. So I have a sweatshirt from Eileen Fisher—we’re gonna be team Eileen Fisher again.CorinneOne thing I want to say about Eileen Fisher—because we did have someone comment that it’s very expensive. There’s so much of it on eBay and Poshmark. You don’t need to buy your Eileen Fisher new. And you can find it on sale a lot through department stores and stuff.VirginiaThat is a very good tip. I’m glad you mentioned that. I got this in my Stitch Fix. So I paid a Stitch Fix price. It wasn’t super cheap, probably a lot for a sweatshirt. It’s a really cheerful bright pink color that makes me super happy. And it’s very well cut and lightweight, I don’t get hot in it but it’s still very soft. I’ve been wearing that a lot with leggings or sweatpants etc.And I will also be a total influencer for a moment and say the Boston Birkenstock clogs really are as good as everyone says. I am on my second pair of the shearling lined ones. I made a mistake the first time, a few years ago, I bought them in light pink. And that was a poor choice because they got very dirty very quickly and kind of just looked not good. After I wore those into the ground, I bought them in navy. I love them so much and they’re my indoor shoes.I’m a big fan of house shoes and house pants. I like slippers. But I’m 41 and my feet hurt a lot and I need arch support. And I work from home, I never leave my house. On the price point, I had a moment of, am I going to spend over $100 on house shoes? And then I thought, I will wear these more than any of my outdoor shoes. CorinneThat’s a good point. Virginia I don’t really understand how the Boston clogs got so trendy on TikTok.Corinne I feel like it’s one specific color.VirginiaIs it the taupe color?CorinneYeah, I think so. And in like a young woman range of sizes. I think you can still find them in men’s sizes and different colors.VirginiaWell, the navy shearling are great.CorinneMy new cozy clothes investment is a robe from Peridot Robes.VirginiaYour robe! I’m so obsessed. Tell us, I don’t even know this brand so tell us everything.CorinneWell, it’s a brand that makes plus size robes. That’s almost all they make. They make a few other things, like a crop top and like a jumpsuit. And I think there may be some other things coming next year. She uses all remnant material, so it’s earth friendly, sustainable. The cuts are just great. I feel like robes weirdly are kind of hard to find, especially ones that overlap a lot. And the one I got is the cuddle robe. It has a hood! And it’s not a V-neck, which I really like. It’s almost like more like a coat. And it has sweatshirt cuffs. It’s so great. I’ve just been wearing it like over my clothes if I need to take the trash out or something like that. I’m going to a hot springs place with my mom and sister over Christmas and I’m so excited to wear it over a bathing suit.VirginiaA good robe to wear over a bathing suit is critical for getting out of the water, when it’s cold. You’re gonna be happy about that.CorinneYeah, so definitely check out Peridot. VirginiaAnd for a quick budget cozy option, I have a fleece from Target I really like. It’s like pink—very into pink for my coziness apparently. I got it last spring. So I’m hoping they’ll still have it. But if they don’t have this one, they’ll probably do a similar cozy fleece option. I will say styling-wise, it’s definitely a knockoff of like Madewell or Alder Apparel or one of those, which you can have your feelings about. But it was $20. So you know, a really good price! And it’s very oversized, like the arms are blousy. I think probably Target caps out at a 3x, but I would guess there’s some flexibility.CorinneTechnically they now have a 4x.VirginiaI don’t trust us to say that ever since the J. Crew coat saga. I don’t want to promise that it comes in whatever sizes it comes in because it will change by the time this airs. But yeah, in theory.CorinneTarget has good fleeces. There are probably other ones if this one is sold out. [Virginia note: It is! Sorry! We linked a GREAT alternative above and I also like this one and this one.]VirginiaTarget is one of the more reliable budget plus size options in general. CorinneQ: Can you talk about what terms like small fat or skinny fat mean? I want to bet…
Full show notes at the publisherYou're listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.One quick thing before we get into it: Today is our Corinne’s birthday! Yay Corinne! You are awesome and we literally couldn’t do Burnt Toast without you, very much including this episode. (Everyone else: Drop some love for her in the comments please!)Today is a Very Special Burnt Toast Episode. Imagine me saying that in my best after-school special voice, but really, it's just a super fun episode because it's the first time we're getting to hear from all of you. If you’re a paid Burnt Toast subscribe, then you know about Friday Threads. Today's episode is like a Friday Thread for your ears.So just like with Friday Threads, we started this episode with a prompt: Tell us your anti-diet resolution for 2023.I want to be clear before we start, you do not need to make any kind of resolution. Time is a construct! The start of a new year is super arbitrary as a place in which to start making changes! We’re almost 3 weeks into the year anyway! And you probably don't need to change anything about your life. But I think a lot of us, especially those of us who identify as recovering perfectionists, feel that pull in January. We feel that urge to set a goal, look at our lives, make some kind of change. Often it's because we were socially conditioned to do this for years, and particularly to work on our bodies at this time of year. To resolve to eat less, to exercise more, to be smaller any way we could.So if that's you (and it’s me too) I think that setting some kind of intention, and specifically an intention to do something that is not a diet can be a really helpful way to move yourself through that urge. So you’re not getting caught up in the “New Year, New You” whirlwind, but still taking advantage of that fresh start energy if that is helpful to you. For example, here is Stella setting some goals that will help her very directly avoid the typical January dieting trap. My anti-diet resolution for 2023 is to eat comfort foods this winter according to the season and not to wear my Fitbit except to bed to help with my sleep. And to avoid the Noom emails. In fact, even block them. I have been a repeat on Noom and it's thanks to you that I've stopped that. Thank you, have a great new year! I just love the idea of blocking Noom from your inbox. Like, why are they in your inbox? Get them out. Honestly, all diet ad spam! This is a great time to be unfollowing and unsubscribing. I love that as a resolution idea. We also heard from Kristine with this goal. So here's Corinne, who's going to read the resolutions that got sent in via email.I am slowly unsubscribing from all the email newsletters I get from the wellness folks I fell for over the last couple of years. I deleted apps, ended subscriptions, even deleted games on my phone that tended to feed me ads. Kristine also has some other goals for herself:The advice I'm going to actually follow is getting a good night's sleep. That and yoga stretches in the morning. I am a single mom of two and I celebrate a variety of foods with them, even if I still have to hide the veggies in something else on their plate. But I finally noticed that the message I was telling my kids was different from the message I was telling myself. I'm gonna have a long conversation with that inner child and 2023.Y’all also had a lot of other great food-related resolutions. Let's listen to a few of those:Hi! My anti diet resolution this year is that when I eat in a restaurant, which is honestly not even that often, that I choose what sounds best to me on the menu without considering calories or protein or anything like that, just what sounds most appealing to me at the time.For the last several years, my New Year's resolution has been to try to find ways to make my life easier. And I think this became a nondiet resolution because I realized how much time and energy I was putting into monitoring what I was eating, how much I was exercising, and the size of my body, and what other people thought of it. And so this didn't fix that obviously, but it put me on a path to where I could start to take steps to make changes to those things and it's been a huge improvement in my life and I'm looking forward to seeing where this resolution will take me in 2023.And I absolutely love this concept of a gentle fitness related resolution from Alexa: One of my biggest intentions that I want to have this year is to be much more gentle with myself. I'm finding that I'm using this word gentle so much more in the last few weeks. I just see that using the word gentle takes the pressure off. I used to punish myself. I used to do boot camps and used to have to earn food, right? I don't want to do that anymore. It's really, really hard on my body. And it's hard on my mind.So this year, if I have a goal, which I do, I do want to become stronger. I do want to become a stronger hiker. I founded the Body Liberation Hiking Club, and I find that I still have some difficulty when it comes to steeper inclines and I want to change that. So my gentle goal is just to go and lift weights, which I enjoy, when I want to do it. No schedule. Just go when I want to go, make it enjoyable, make it short. And that's gentleness, that's being kind to myself. So my anti-diet intention is to whenever I feel like I have a goal or want to do something for myself that I do it in a gentle way. And here's Corinne with Paige’s resolution: My resolution is to only buy clothing that actually fits, is comfortable, and looks good on my body right now. Only small alterations, like hemming length. No aspirational clothes, no clothes that require changes to my body in any way. A lot of you took this prompt beyond body-related resolutions and I think this is another awesome direction to go in. Here's Corinne with Laura's resolution:I financed a slightly used hybrid car in May 2022. And my monthly payment goes through a bank I've never used. My first attempt at setting up auto debit monthly payments failed, and then work burnout kept me from doing whatever dance I have to do to set it up—call my home bank, get customer service help from the car payment bank. Even typing out the sentence makes me exhausted and anxious! But also mailing a check every month and waiting for it to clear is a hassle. I know I'll breathe just a little easier if I set this dang auto payment up. I'm using a new year as my gentle push to do this boring chore. I need minor sinus surgery in the new year and while hospitals scare me, I look forward to fewer headaches and sinus infections. It's not a resolution to get surgery, I guess, but my health goals for 2023 include giving myself time to recover from surgery. My job is the kind that will pressure me to be on email basically until the anesthesia kicks in and to continue to reply to emails and be on Zooms during my sick leave. I won't do that! And also just note the ways I truly do feel better after I have recovered. Or I guess note honestly if I don't feel better—just a neutral honest noting of how my body feels.Laura, I so feel you and I really want you to report back to us when you get the auto payment setup. We will all cheer for you! Oh, I have so many of these like boring need to get this done, will make my life easier, but it's gonna take like half an hour to do it and I don't want to. So I love this idea. And good luck with sinus surgery!Here are some other really great non-body-related resolutions. This is fromJen Swho writesflab:So, my most focused resolution is to just create. I'm reading Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic and focusing on creativity and creating, even if I think that other people have done it better than me or before me, and that there's no room for what I have to say out there. I'm going to say it anyways and put my spin on it, but just create as much as I can this year.Also love these:My anti-diet resolution is to go to the movies more. I started a monthly movie group with friends and we are all looking forward to it.P.S. During a New Year's Eve dinner that I hosted, instead of going around the table and saying our resolutions, I asked that we each say one fun thing we hope to do more of. At first, some of the guests struggled to come up with something beyond the usual diet culture resolutions. However, it soon became a very light and funny conversation. People wanted more game nights, more sex, more concerts, more phone calls with long distance friends, and more movies. Hi, I wanted to send in my anti diet resolution with a little side note that I've grown not to use the word “resolution” because my resolutions were always so toxic and related to diet culture, or like finding a boyfriend. ‘This year I'll get a boyfriend,’ or, you know, things like that. And so my intention for the year is actually to slow down and to read more fiction.My resolution is going to be not to save things for someday. To enjoy things in the present. It applies to lots of things: Hello, pile of beautiful notebooks that I've collected and never written in! I see you Waterford Crystal glasses that I got from my first wedding! But it also applies to food. I will not say to myself, you can treat yourself to poutine/cheesecake/Taco Bell if you lose five pounds or exercise five days this week or whatever arbitrary rule you've made up that's about limitation and control.We just moved into a historic 1911 Aladdin kit built house in Bay City, Michigan, and it just does not feel like us and does not feel like home yet. So a big resolution of mine for the upcoming year is going to be turning this house that we just entered into a home that works for our family, reflects our style, reflects what we need it to do for us. And last, a few of you did let us know that you are planning some resolutions that will help you further your activism against anti-fat bias. Kate let us know that her goal is to write to her school board to advocate adding weight and body size to the hazing harassment and bullying policy. That's amazing! It is a really big problem that weight-based bullying is the number one reason girls are bullied. It's the number two reason boys are bullied. But it's often not included explicitly in school bullying policies. So that's something that's good for all of us to know. If that's the case in your school districts, sending this kind of email is a great resolution.I also love this goal from Katie:I became fully licensed in social work recently. And there is a massive, massive need for more qualified mental health providers, not just in Michigan, but across the country. So my resolution for the upcoming year is to become one of those mental health care providers. I'm going to start taking on clients over the summer—hopefully adolescents for mental health services. I want to contribute to the field where there's a need. And as for me, it's probably a little bit ironic that given the theme of this episode, I am also landing in the no resolution camp this year. But I think it's actually a victory. As I said, I'm a recovering perfectionist. I have done many, many, many resolutions over the years and I'm generally someone who loves setting goals and being sort of caught up in all of that. so not doing it feels like you know hard in its own way and a good thing. For the past few years, the only resolution I did let myself make was to set a goal for the number of books I want to read. I would put the reading challenge in Goodreads and I would track my reading all year long and it was really satisfying. Like, I met those goals! I read a ton more books! I started this in 2018—my second child was born in 2017—so, it was a very concrete way to reclaim reading after several years of not reading very much because I was in the newborn haze, the toddler haze, then another newborn haze. And if you are in the baby or toddler stage and you're not reading a lot, just please know that I think it's really normal and just where our brains are in those years. Sleep deprivation kills reading for me in a huge way.So, I wasn't reading and setting these goals really helped me bring reading back to my life in a big way. I read 85 books last year! Yes, of course I'm bragging about the number even as I'm telling you that I'm not setting this goal anymore.But now that I've done it for a few years, I just want to read. I just don't want to gameify it anymore. I want to not pick books based on how fast I can get through them. I want to maybe pick a longer book without thinking it's going to throw off my count. And I also just want to trust that I have reclaimed this reading habit and I can now just do it. Even if I read less this year, or differently, or whatever it looks like. I just want to kind of go with it. So, here’s to going for big goals if you've got them, but also to not waiting to enjoy the good stuff, to getting those annoying chores off your to do lists, and to just being gentle with ourselves. If hearing these resolutions sparked anything fun, I hope you'll share it in the comments. And if you do absolutely nothing but exist and survive this year, please know, I think you're doing an awesome job.---Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast. If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and tell a friend about this episode.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon. EPISODE CREDITSCo-hosts: Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Producer: Kim Baldwin. Logo design: Deanna Lowe.Theme Song: Farideh.Video Editor: Elizabeth AyikuAudio Engineer: Tommy HarronFollow us on social! Virginia is on Instagram and Threads as @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith. Corinne is on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay and on Patreon at Big Undies.Support the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders.Thanks for listening and supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
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