Show notes
What is “serve and return”? What does it mean to have a “responsive relationship” with a child? How do responsive relationships support healthy brain development? And what can parents and caregivers do in their day-to-day lives to build these sorts of relationships? This episode of The Brain Architects podcast addresses all these questions and more! Contents Podcast Panelists Additional Resources Transcript Fortunately, there are many quick, easy, and free ways to create responsive relationships with children of any age. To kick off this episode, Center Director Dr. Jack Shonkoff describes the science behind how these interactions—known as “serve and return”—work. This is followed by a discussion among a panel of scientists and practitioners including Dr. Phil Fisher, the Philip H. Knight Chair and Professor of Psychology at the University of Oregon, and director of the Center for Translational Neuroscience; Patricia Marinho, founder and CEO of Tempojunto and co-founder of Programa BEM; and Sarah Ryan, director of Life Skills at Julie’s Family Learning Program. The panelists discuss what it looks like to serve and return with children on a daily basis, and how to encourage these interactions. Panelists Dr. Phil Fisher Patricia Marinho Sarah Ryan Additional Resources Resources from the Center on the Developing Child Working Paper 1: Young Children Develop in an Environment of Relationships Serve & Return Interaction Shapes Brain Circuitry 5 Steps for Brain-Building Serve and Return How-to Video: 5 Steps for Brain-Building Serve and Return Play in Early Childhood: The Role of Play in Any Setting Building Babies’ Brains Through Play: Mini Parenting Master Class FIND: Filming Interactions to Nurture Development Articles Beecher, Michael D. & Burt, John M. (2004). The role of social interaction in bird song learning. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 13(6), 224-228. Kok, R., Thijssen, S., Bakermans-Kranenburg, M. et al. (2015). Normal variation in early parental sensitivity predicts child structural brain development. Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 54(10), 824–831. Kuhl, P.K., Ramírez, R.R., Bosseler, A., Lin, J.L. & Imada, T. (2014). Infants’ brain responses to speech suggest analysis by synthesis. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 111(31), 11238-11245. Levy, J., Goldstein, A. & Feldman, R. (2019). The neural development of empathy is sensitive to caregiving and early trauma. Nature Communications, 10, 1905. Marler, Peter (1970). Birdsong and speech development: Could there be parallels?. American Scientist, 58(6), 669-673. Ramírez-Esparza, N., García-Sierra, A. & Kuhl, P.K. (2014). Look who’s talking: Speech style and social context in language input to infants is linked to concurrent and future speech development. In press: Developmental Science, 17(6), 880-91. Rifkin-Graboi, A., Kong, L., Sim, L.W. et al. (2015). Maternal sensitivity, infant limbic structure volume and functional connectivity: A preliminary study. Translational Psychiatry, 5, e668. Romeo, R.R., Leonard, J.A., Robinson, S.T., et al. (2018). Beyond the 30-million-word gap: Children’s conversational exposure is associated with language-related brain function. Psychological Science, 29(5), 700-710. Sethna, V., Pote, I., Wang, S. et al. (2017). Mother–infant interactions and regional brain volumes in infancy: An MRI study. Brain Structure and Function, 222, 2379–2388. Yu, C. & Smith, L.B. (2013). Joint attention without gaze following: Human infants and their parents coordinate visual attention to objects through eye-hand coordination. PLoS One, 8(11), e79659. Resources from Our Panelists Dr. Phil Fisher The FIND Program Patricia Marinho Tempojunto (in Portuguese) Progama BEM (video in Portuguese with English subtitles) Transcript Sally: Welcome to The Brain Architects, a new podcast from The Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University. I’m your host, Sally Pfitzer. Our Center believes that advances in science can provide a powerful source of new ideas that can improve outcomes for children and families. We want to help you apply the science of early childhood development to your everyday interactions with children, and take what you’re hearing from our experts and panels and apply it to your everyday work. In today’s episode, we’re going to dive into the science behind serve and return interactions and we’ll learn how important responsive relationships are to healthy development. Later in the podcast, we’ll incorporate these positive interactions into ordinary moments throughout your day. Here to discuss serve and return is Dr. Jack Shonkoff, who is the professor of Child Health and Development and the director of the Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University. Hey, Jack, we’re so glad to have you back. Jack: Great to be here. Sally: Today we’re going to dig into this concept of serve and return, so I’m wondering if you could start just telling us a little bit about what serve and return is. Jack: Serve and return is a very simple phrase that tells us about how important the back and forth interaction is between very young children, actually beginning immediately after birth, and the adults who care for them. Serve and return, as we’re using it now, refers to how parents, or other adults who care for young children, exchange vocalizations. They make sounds, they look at each other. There’s back and forth interaction that occurs naturally between babies, very young children and the adults who care for them. These are things that parents and other caregivers do pretty naturally. Even if you haven’t had a course in child development, we are biologically wired to be engaged in that kind of serve and return interaction because it is necessary for healthy development. If we didn’t do it, if it required a course in child development, millions of years ago we would have become extinct as a species because babies’ brains and young children’s brains wouldn’t have developed in the way they do. It’s the essence of what promotes healthy brain development very early. Sally: Why is that important for healthy development of a child? Jack: It’s not simply important, it’s critical, because the brain is wired to expect this kind of back and forth serve and return interaction. It’s really the way the brain builds its circuits, the way the brain develops the capacity for different skills. Here’s a really good example. How do birds learn a song? Very similar to how do humans learn their language, which is speaking. A really elegant experiment was done once. Newly hatched baby songbirds who, at that point, didn’t know their songs. They removed them from the adult songbirds and raised them in cages with very high-fidelity recordings of the song for that songbird. You can guess what the punchline is here. Those birds never learned to sing, ever. Even though they heard the song beautifully, there was no opportunity to practice it and interact and get feedback from the adults. Sally: That’s so fascinating. I’m imagining, as a listener, my first question might be, am I supposed to engage in this serve and return interaction at all times with children? If I’m busy doing something else, am I missing a really critical moment to build the child’s brain? Jack: The best general answer is extreme on anything is usually not good. As much as it would be really bad for a baby or a young child to be ignored, most of the time, it is not helpful to be interacted with all of the time. That’s not the real world and children of all ages need some time to process what’s going on by themselves. It’s a balance issue. Is there anybody out there listening to this who don’t want a break at some point from all the nice chatter and interaction? We all need a little bit of a break. Sally: We all need a break. Jack: Absolutely. Sally: Absolutely. Jack: The important thing is when children are young and they don’t really understand a lot about what’s going on, that is not a time to say, “Well, it doesn’t really matter.” Sally: Can you give us some examples? Not necessarily of how to serve and return, but how specifically does that serve and return interaction build a strong foundation? Jack: It actually works in two ways. One is how it helps to shape and model brain connections. The other is the extent to which, if a baby doesn’t get that kind of responsive interaction, it triggers a stress response. The serve and return interaction is both important for its positive, it’s what scientists call experience expectant development, the brain is expecting it, but the other part of it is that because the brain is expecting it, when it doesn’t get it, the stress system gets activated because it’s biologically dangerous for a baby. Sally: So when it comes to serve and return interactions, how do you know what might be too much, what might be too little? Jack: Like everything else in development, there’s no one size fits all model for this, but at the end of the day it’s about knowing your baby and knowing your own style and finding a comfortable way of interacting. That fits in a very, very wide range of normal. And I think we also ought to talk about the stresses on parents. Some parents are working full time and have less hours in the day to spend with their child. I think one of the worst phrases we’ve ever imposed on parents is this issue of the importance of quality time in the evening, to make sure you get that quality time and if you’re working all day, well, guess what? There’s probably no time in the 24-hour daily cycle that’s more challenging for everybody than kind of early evening at the end of a long day. Some parents are struggling with a lot of stresses in their lives and there are many parents who are dealing with depression. Postpartum depression is a very real thing. People are overwhelmed by lots of problems. They can have a hard time summoning up the energy. And what, really, people need to understand is you don’t have to spend hours and hours a day with rich interaction. It’s the time you spend together. If there’s very little interaction, then you can’t summon that energy, then it’s really important to get help. But if the time you spend together includes a reasonable amount of positive interaction, you’re there. You don’t have to worry about whether there needs to be more. Sally: Thanks Jack, I really loved hearing about serve and return and how it can be important to build responsive relationships in the children in our everyday lives. And when we come back, we’ll have a few experts on serve and return who are joining us for a panel discussion. Musical interlude Sally: Here to help us talk through the implications of serve and return, we have Dr. Phil Fisher, who is the Philip H. Knight Chair and Professor of Psychology at the University of Oregon and the Director of the Center for Translational Neuroscience. Hi, Phil. Phil: Hey, Sally. Great to be here and connect with you. Sally: Also joining us is Ms. Patricia Marinho, who’s the founder and CEO of Tempojunto, and cofounder of Programa BEM, who’s from Sao Paulo, Brazil. Hey, Patricia. Patricia: Hi, Sally. What a pleasure to be here with you. Sally: Also joining us is Ms. Sarah Ryan, who’s the director of Life Skills at Julie’s Family Learning Program here in Boston. Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. Sarah: Hi, Sally. Thank you so much for having me. Sally: Okay, let’s go ahead and get started. Sarah, this first question is for you. How have you used the concept of serve and return in your work? Sarah: I work with young mothers and we have their children actually on site in our childcare center. I have them for one hour every day and we do a parenting or life skills curriculum, so I actually get to teach serve and return and touch on it every single day with them and talk about specific examples: what their child offered, what they offered back, and talk about enhancing or pointing and naming or adding one thing, adding a color, adding a shape. Sally: How have you seen that impact your families? Does it help them get a better understanding of serve and return interactions or just how their child is developing? Sarah: Well, I would say all of the above. Then they feel this sense of competence and mastery. My young moms don’t have their high school diplomas. They’re working on those. And they often haven’t thought of themselves as valuable teachers, as competent, as capable, and many of them didn’t receive high quality, consistent serve and return in a nurturing way. So when they realize they can do it and they have every tool they need already to grow their children’s brains and to develop them, it’s really empowering. It’s really exciting to watch parents and the young moms really come alive and then get excited about doing more of it and reporting back what their children do and feeling so much pride in that. Sally: Right. It’s that positive reinforcement cycle, right? They understand that they actually already have all the skills that they need to do this. And, Phil, that actually reminds me a lot of your work and I’m wondering if you could share a bit about results that maybe you’ve seen–how people, when they start to better understand what serve and return is, how they are better able to interact with their children. Phil: Sure. I’d be happy to talk about that. First of all, I think the whole concept of serve and return has really had a huge impact in how we communicate about the science of early childhood in the sense that it’s just a really straightforward and vivid way to convey this idea of back and forth interactions being so central. In our own work, one of the things that’s been really essential has been to clarify that the serve and return process is most impactful when it begins with the child. So that is the extent to which the child is exploring the world, is using language or vocalizations and the adult notices the child serve and then returns it. But what’s really transformative, I think it’s pretty clear that we’re pretty hardwired to notice what children are doing and respond, but it can still go beneath the radar for people to have awareness of what they’re doing and that’s why a lot of us, I think, are now gravitating toward techniques like video coaching that can really make it apparent to people how they are participating in the serve and return process and therefore should just do more of it. Patricia: I’d like to add on something. I think that the word transformative is very powerful in terms of thinking of serve and return. And I’d like to give my testimony as a mom because I think the first encounter that I have with this knowledge of serve and return was thinking about the way I personally act with my kids. It was amazing to see, to really understand the metaphor that the child was ready to explore and I would be the one helping them. I discovered the knowledge of serve and return and decided to apply in my personal life and I found this transformation both in myself and in my relationship with my kids and with my children. So I think this transformation aspect is really very, very powerful. Sally: Yeah. And it picks up on what both Sarah and Phil were saying that once parents have the opportunity to see how serve and return can actually be building their child’s brains and be building that positive relationship, it’s self-perpetuating. You want to do more and more of it. Right? Sarah, I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit to if there’s an adult that might be in your program who says, “I actually never really experienced this serve and return interaction with my own parent and now I’m expected to engage with it with my child and it feels overwhelming and maybe it’s a science concept that I don’t really want to dig into too much.” What would you say to that parent to increase that interaction between them and their child? Sarah: You know, I have had women who say, “That wasn’t my ex…
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