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    The ADU Hour

    The ADU Hour is a podcast that probes deep into ADUs and other small alternative infill housing. Kol Peterson, a nationally known ADU subject matter expert, interviews experts in the ADU space and then we have the guest take some questions from our live audience.

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    Latest Episodes:
    The ADU Hour w/guest Katherine Einstein Jun 15, 2021
    Show notes

    Kol Peterson: Hey everybody. Thanks for joining us on the ADU Hour. I am super excited for today's guest, Katherine Levine- Einstein. This topic is fascinating background about the way that land use decisions are made at the local level across the country and that has some important impacts in terms of understanding what advocates [00:03:00] for infill housing should consider doing strategically in terms of improving regulations for middle housing, ADUs, et cetera. Thanks so much for coming to join us today, Katherine, I stumbled upon your work through another podcast that I listened to. I want to confess right up front, I haven't read the book, but I wanted to take this opportunity to take some of the things that you've written about and researched and frame it in the context of some of the issues that come up time and time again with ADUs.Before I launch more into my questions, let me just give you a minute to introduce yourself. Katherine Levine-Einstein: Sure. So I'm an associate professor of Political Science at Boston University and I study Urban Politics and Housing Politics, and I'm one of the authors of the book "Neighborhood Defenders, Participatory Politics in America's Housing Crisis".Kol Peterson: Have you considered doing an audio book?Katherine Levine-Einstein: It's definitely a great idea. I don't frankly know if the University Press has that kind of bandwidth. But yeah, I'm with you. Audio books are the way to go. Kol Peterson: Yeah, for me, it's just like how I [00:04:00] consume. So anyway, and this, this series will eventually become an audio podcast for what that's worth for people who are listening.So there's 19,495 incorporated cities, towns, and villages in the US, 310 cities with a population of a hundred thousand or more. Neighborhood level politics, that is, city councils, associations. Play an outsized role in how land is developed in the United States. Americans like local democratic processes. So, why is this a problem? Katherine Levine-Einstein: Yeah. So democratic processes, I mean, you say that word, that sounds really good. Right? Like having land use be democratic? I think most people hear that, they say, "yeah, that's how it should be "people who live in a community should have a say over what goes on. And indeed, that's why we have these regulations in the first place. That when we sort of had a developer dominated system back during the Urban Renewal Days, a lot of bad things happened in neighborhoods.So there are sort of good reasons to have urban planning practices be really oriented towards neighborhood level [00:05:00] input. But in practice it can be deeply problematic because we may not be empowering a representative democratic subset of the neighborhood, right? What we show in our research is that the people who show up to these neighborhood level meetings are deeply unrepresentative of their communities in a way that actually depresses the supply of housing in the United States and the supply of affordable housing in particular. The people who show up to these meetings are privileged. They're homeowners, they're older, they're whiter, and they're overwhelmingly opposed to the construction of new housing.Kol Peterson: Let's frame your research a little bit, so that we'll know what you did. And then tell us a little bit more about the numbers behind those findings of the demographics of people who actually show up to these meetings.Katherine Levine-Einstein: Yeah, so our book is about these participatory processes. You know, when we told people we're going to go out and study neighborhood meetings at planning and zoning boards. Really is that so interesting and important? But, I suspect I don't have to convince the audience here. These are incredibly important, these meetings are what dictate whether or not housing gets built in most [00:06:00] communities in the United States. So we really wanted to understand what happened in this sort of hyper-local politics. And so what we wanted to do is go out and document who shows up to these meetings and what do they say? And Massachusetts turns out, because of unique open meeting laws in the state, to provide an incredible opportunity to do so.So what we did is we went out and we collected meeting minutes for three years worth of meetings across 97 cities and towns in Massachusetts. And what made the data for Massachusetts really unusual is that in addition to including a list of public comments that happened at these meetings, we were able to learn the names and addresses of the people who participated in these public forums.And when you have someone's name and address, you can link them with a lot of other administrative data and learn really interesting and important demographic information. So from those meeting minutes, we were able to learn how demographically and attitudinally representative the people are who show up to these public meetings. The first k ey finding that we had is that these [00:07:00] folks were privileged. They were about 25 percentage points more likely to be homeowners than the general population in their community. They were over 20 percentage points more likely to be over the age of 50. They were about 10 percentage points, more likely to be white, right?So these are folks who occupy positions of privilege in their communities. They also overwhelmingly do not like the construction of new housing. So we looked at public meetings that involved the construction of one or more units of housing. So we looked at everything involving meetings had accessory dwelling units up to like big apartment complexes.And we found that only 14% of people showed up to these meetings in support of the construction of new housing. So, overwhelmingly the voices that planning and zoning board officials hear and that city councils hear, are people who are opposed to new housing developments. Kol Peterson: So 14% showed up in support of the projects and all the rests showed up as opposing the projects?Katherine Levine-Einstein: Most of them, I think at [00:08:00] 65% showed up opposed, and the rest showed up as neutral. There were a lot of those neutral folks were in fact opposed, but they were sort of asking clarifying questions about whether the developer had complied with parking studies or something like that.Kol Peterson: And then you took that data in your study and you contrasted it to legislative support for affordable housing so that kind of gives you a baseline of theoretically , this demographic should have one feeling towards affordable housing, but in practice when it comes to development in their own backyard this is what we see. So can you talk about the differences? Katherine Levine-Einstein: Absolutely. So another great thing about studying Massachusetts was in 2010, we actually had a ballot referendum about public support for affordable housing, so there's a piece of statewide legislation here in Massachusetts called Chapter 40 B, which allows housing developments that have a certain percentage of affordable housing to bypass local zoning regulations.And so this was up for a ballot referendum in 2010. And so it gives us a [00:09:00] rough sense in each city and town, the extent to which individuals support the production of affordable housing and the ability to bypass local zoning to accomplish that goal. So the ballot referendum passed. So this law is still in place in Massachusetts.And what we found is in every single city and town that we studied, support for housing was higher as measured in this ballot referendum than it was when we actually went and looked on the ground at support from new housing at these planning and zoning board meetings. I think liberal Cambridge, Massachusetts is the best illustration of this.So 80% of Cambridge, Massachusetts voters in 2010 came out in support of chapter 40 B. But only 40% of commenters at Cambridge planning and zoning board meetings show up in support of the construction of new housing. So when it comes to developments in their own backyard, the people who show up to these meetings are considerably more opposed to new housing.Kol Peterson: So what does this tell you about the disparity of those who are empowered to participate in local [00:10:00] zoning processes and the general ideological sentiment towards infill housing in general? Katherine Levine-Einstein: Yeah. I mean, what it tells me is that the people who show up to these meetings are not representative of their broader communities. And they're not representative in ways that are gonna depress the supply of housing. And it, this is really problematic, right? Because one, it's depressing the supply of housing relative to what the general public wants, right? Like if we sort of look at general public opinions, especially in these high costs, communities like Boston, San Francisco, Seattle, we see high levels of support for new housing, but when it comes to the housing actually being built in specific neighborhoods, when we empower neighborhoods to have a say over whether or not they want housing there, the evidence suggests that those neighborhoods overwhelmingly saying, "No thanks, we don't want housing".I sorta think the second important point timbers from our data, when we think about this broader housing politics is this is not just a story of people showing up in opposition to big apartment complexes, right? This is a story about people coming out in opposition for a townhouse or [00:11:00] accessory dwelling unit being built in their community.And so these neighborhood meetings get really contentious, not just when it's a big development, but sometimes when it's like a pretty modest one. Kol Peterson: Can you explain the theory of Cost for Political P articipation in the process and let's cover both the expertise element of it, the time required element, then this theory of concentrated costs and diffuse benefits. Katherine Levine-Einstein: Yeah. Two big reasons that the folks who show up to these meetings are deeply unrepresentative of their broader communities. The first is that it's incredibly costly to participate in these forums. And the second is that the people who are sort of weakly supportive of new housing may not be especially interested in showing up to these developments.So when we look at canonical political science research, we know that the biggest drivers of whether or not you participate in politics, are whether you have the resources to participate, and whether you're interested to participate. And we believe that both of those factors are really critical to explaining why the people who show up to these planning and zoning board meetings are really unrepresentative of their broader communities, right. So starting with these [00:12:00] sort of resource-based costs, going to the planning and zoning board meeting is like a big outlay of time, right? So you have to have two to three hours of your life that you're willing to give up, you have to have the childcare. There's a lot of just like basic costs to showing up to one of these meetings, you also have to develop the expertise.These meetings often devolve really quickly into the minutia of whether or not a setback is big enough or whether or not a parking study or a traffic study is required. If you're not someone who is intimately familiar with the lingo of variances and special permits, these meetings are not going to feel really accessible to you, right?So another cost is developing that expertise. So there's really big cost barriers. There's also, again, the second big factor there, these big interest barriers to showing up. So new housing developments have concentrated costs and diffuse benefits. So let's just imagine, you know, a townhouse development, right?Like not, not sort of a major apartment building, but just sort of a small housing development. The benefits of that housing development, if I'm measuring across the whole city in it, [00:13:00] City that has a shortage of housing, that the benefits of that they're like pretty diffused. You know, we're not going to really measure a significant decrease in housing costs from the construction of those two new units.But the cost of that building of two new units is really concentrated. If I live next door to that townhouse development, I'm going to have to listen to construction noise for like a year maybe, or I'm going to have to have my view changed in a way that I don't like, or maybe there's going to be more cars parked in front of my house.There are all these things that are going to be very motivating to me, as the next door neighbor, to show up in a way that even if I'm the most ardent pro housing supporter in the world, I'm probably not going to show up to a planning or zoning board meeting about a townhouse across town. That's just not a useful outlay of my time given the diffuse benefits.Kol Peterson: Yeah. And it, it really begs the question, " Who would actually show up for a meeting for a proposed project near them in general?" It totally makes sense that [00:14:00] everybody has NIMBY predispositions, even myself.We don't want change near us. We don't want more parking near us, we don't want more housing near us. We all kind of feel this way and it's almost a natural thing yet our democratic process at the local level is set up to empower that predisposition that we have. Katherine Levine-Einstein: Yeah. So there's really good psychological research out there that shows that we, as humans are just innately sensitive to changes in our neighborhood. Like we respond really strongly to changes in our community. And so it totally makes sense. A development definitionally is a rapid change to your community, even if it's one of a pretty modest scope. Having a new townhouse go in next door is a really big change to your view. It's a big and rapid change to the environment into which you bought into. Those kinds of rapid changes, we know have a strong impact on people's attitudes and they're motivating, they get you sort of interested in politics and eager to show up to these forums. And as you said, these forums are therefore designed [00:15:00] to capture that exact set of preferences. The people who are intensely motivated to show up and have the resources to do so. Kol Peterson: For those of us who haven't been through this type of local land use process at the local level, can you help set up for us what a local meeting dynamic that occurs for a proposed housing development project would look like? Katherine Levine-Einstein: Yeah, sure. So there's obviously a lot different ways this can go and some of them are a lot more contentious than others. But I can provide sort of a pretty standard example of a multi-family housing development that happened in Cambridge. So this particular developer I think it was in 2015, he showed up and it was this like terrible abandoned warehouse near a mass transit stop in Cambridge. And so he shows up and says, "I would like to convert this abandoned warehouse into four condominium units. Each with one parking space." Because he was proposing converting a she'll use into a residential one he needed to get a special permit. And so he found himself before the [00:16:00] Cambridge planning board in order to get a special permit. So the way that this typically goes, he comes to the meeting, he presents his plan, then the Cambridge planning board asks them like pretty technocratic questions. And at that moment it's turned over, to public comment. In most places in the United States, Cambridge is not unique by any means, when you need to get a variance or a special p…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    The ADU Hour w/guest Kurt Lane Jun 08, 2021
    Show notes

    Kol : This is [00:02:00] kind of a interesting topic that is, on its surface kind of a dry topic, but one that I think is really important for some big picture policy reasons. Just to set a little bit of a framework for why this topic is relevant.There's a direct correlation with where ADUs are likely to take off and an affordable housing crisis. So in areas where there's an affordable housing crisis, we're likely to see ADUs. In areas where there's an affordable housing crisis, we're also likely to have stricter than normal rental regulations and therefore owner occupied properties, where people are prone to build ADUs, all of a sudden they may, may maybe in statistically speaking, more likely to be subject to onerous rental regulation standards.So I wanted to have Kurt Lane on today to kind of go over some of these issues and how some of these rental regulations apply in Portland. So in any [00:03:00] event Kurt, why don't I have you just give a brief introduction of yourself? Kurt: Yeah, sure. So my name's Kurt Lane, I've been a rental property owner here in Portland and in Detroit, Michigan for the better part of a decade.I started Chroma property management at, towards the end of last year after, spending a lot of time, self managing properties that I own and really just, I saw a need in the Portland market for really a more modern approach to property management. And also I saw a need or, property management services for ADU and owner-occupied people because obviously that makes up a significant portion of our market here., Portland, I think is arguably the most heavily regulated rental market in the country. So property management then becomes, pretty crucial here in order to help people navigate all of that regulation because, penalties for being in non-compliance can run into , easily into the thousands.So, it's a full service property management company, but we do have a suite of services specific to ADU owners.Kol : [00:04:00] So let's talk in broad strokes about the trends in terms of landlord tenant laws in West coast cities that are facing an affordable housing crisis. Can you talk about some of the big picture trends that we're seeing in those regards?Kurt: Yeah, so I think, really this started in Portland and really in other major cities over the last decade there was a really significant increase in the total dollar amount of money spent on rents and also on, the percentage of rent increases. So in Portland, in particular, 2010 to 2015 they saw , over 20% increase in rents and significantly, there was a spike in 2015. Overall Portland saw a lot of economic gains in, in the last 10 years. So it was a fast, fourth, fastest growing city , looking at income specifically, and it was only behind Seattle, San Francisco, and I think San Jose . So Portland saw a lot of economic gains, but also saw , people feeling really [00:05:00] squeezed out of the rental market, especially with redevelopment and sort of, inner Northeast and inner Southeast, which is, sort of close in to our city here.That gave rise to the city, declaring a housing emergency in the fall of 2015 and the housing emergency . I'll just read the language really quick because this language really then dictates the policies we're going to be talking about today. So the Portland city policy as of 2015, is that all Portlanders regardless of income level, family composition, race, ethnicity, or physical ability have reasonable certainty in their housing, whether publicly assisted or on the private market.And so this concept of reasonable certainty becomes very important. In defining how the city is going to implement a bunch of regulations. So primarily that's taken the form of rent control. So we have citywide rent control here in Portland. The state decided to then follow suit with the first statewide rent control legislation in the country.So that passed [00:06:00] last year. So at the state level, rents are capped at 7% plus the consumer price index annually. So this year it was 9.9%. Those rates are set every September. Portland also just incidentally has 9.9% increase year to year. So that was very fundamental shifts. Another big change was that there's this idea now of when a relocation assistance.So all of the things we're going to be talking about today, are expansions of tenant protections in the market to try and guarantee some reasonable certainty. So rental relocation assistance, what that really means is now there's direct form of cash payments from landlords to tenants in the event of, excuse me, in the event of a no cause eviction or a rent increase over 9.9%.And then most recently as of March 1st, there's now these ordinances that are called the fair ordinances. One of those deals with screening criteria. So how you can evaluate tenants and the second deals with security deposits. So [00:07:00] what you can charge for security deposit upfront, and then also how the landlord and the tenant have to document the condition of the property throughout tenancy.And so what you're seeing these that's Portland specifically, but you've seen that replicated in Seattle. Obviously you're seeing that in California and LA and San Francisco and other communities there Seattle, this winter, the city council passed a resolution that you could not evict tenants during winter months.The mayor refused to sign that, but that's going to come back around. And I think obviously with everything going on now with COVID-19 and major economic disruptions, you're going to see cities, make attempts essentially to guarantee housing for people. And so that's taking the form now in Oregon of there's a moratorium on evictions through the entire emergency and the state and city sort of, big dictate when emergency period ends.Kol : It use are largely developed by amateur homeowner developers. And many of these homeowners are becoming landlords for the first time when they finish your ADU and [00:08:00] rent out the primary house or the ADU. So what are some best practices that you would like to convey to first time landlords? Kurt: I think, really important to start thinking about the property, number one is an investment property. And, but number two also, as , you are providing , housing to people and there's a, there's a great deal of responsibility that comes with that. And so that means that, you need to have a legally binding lease. You need to have an application process that's equitable.You need to make sure that your screening criteria is documented. You need to make sure that how you go through the entire application processes is really well-documented. That basically you're you really in compliance with all these things. I mean, that's sort of legally, that's what you want to make sure of.I would also really advocate people , making sure you have the right insurance in place, so it's going to be a different type of insurance than you have for your home, for example . I'm a big advocate of people setting up LLCs for rental properties. I think there's a lot of protections that provides.[00:09:00] For a lot of people, it's the first time doing this. And with ADUs, it is unique because, typically the owner is, intimately involved in the development of the construction of it, as well as opposed to somebody who goes and buys a duplex or a fourplex to get started.So I think you have to separate yourself from the process a little bit and start thinking about what are the steps I would, I would be taking if I had, a standalone duplex or a standalone single family rental, and just really making sure you have everything in order to, to be going about it legally and to really, be taking on having tenants full-time. Kol : Do does having renters living on the same property, of owner occupied properties, meaning an owner occupied property with an ADU or duplex or triplex provide any separate legal protections for landlords or for tenants that are not afforded to non-owner occupied investment properties and can you describe what these protections are? Kurt: Yeah, definitely. So in, in [00:10:00] Oregon, and I think you're seeing this , in other places where ADUs becoming, an owner occupied, is becoming more and more prominent part of the mix of rental housing is, there's this trend towards creating a separate class of rental property.So a lot of times, obviously ADUs and owner occupied, they're, they're treated the same as, an apartment complex with a hundred units or 500 units. But in other key areas, the city and state are differentiating those types of properties. So the key things to think about when you're talking about ADU and owner occupied is the idea of the owner actually living on the property.So that means the owners that they're living in the house, which would be considered the primary dwelling or living in the ADU. It doesn't really matter, which just as long as you're living on both, if you're living on neither, then your property is just a rental property in the same way , again, a hundred unit apartment complex would be. It's treated the same legally. But if you are living onsite, which is obviously really common in the ADU world and [00:11:00] an owner occupied, in Portland and in Oregon, you are granted certain exemptions. So rental relocation assistance, which I talked about earlier that the direct cash payments and the, a bit of a no cause eviction or rental increase button 9.9%, that doesn't apply to ADU owners who live on site. They also are exempted from the screening criteria of the FAIR ordinance that passed. And what the screening criteria really was, was an attempt to standardize how tenants are screened and then also lower the bar economically to make, a wider pool of housing available to people.So it used to be that. Tenants would have to show three times , gross income relative to the rent. And now that's been dropped to two times. Credit scores have been dropped. So I think it's 500 now criminal history, they backed off on what you can look at in terms of criminal history.So before it used to be well now, for example, it's , seven years is as far back as you can look. So that doesn't apply to [00:12:00] ADU owners. Kol : Wait, none of those, none of those screening laws apply to ADU owners? Kurt: No. So in none of the FAIR ordinance screening criteria, none of that applies to ADU or owner occupied.So the other thing that's really important for ADU owners, especially if you're dealing with new development is, so there's the statewide rent control law that I discussed earlier that caps rent at 7% plus consumer price index annually. That doesn't apply if the certificate of occupancy was granted anytime within the last 15 years.So those properties are grandfathered in and exempt from state rent control. So, basically the key things to really know, in Oregon, in terms of the mix of how this works with ADU , you can have an exemption for state and rent control law if your ADU is less than 15 years old, rental relocation assistance, since doesn't apply to you. And also this, the screening criteria, the FAIR ordinance, doesn't apply. The second ordinance there, which is security deposit, [00:13:00] and that applies to everyone. And that's really that that's a fairly like it's a significant ordinance. So people should be really aware of that going into the process. But yeah, those are, those are some of the things that have been done to really differentiate ADUs.The important thing to know about all of this is that, especially with the rental relocation assistance, you have to file an exemption with the City of Portland. And that has to be granted by the housing bureau. So there is a process for that exemption, but it does exist. Kol : Yeah. Well, I'd like to talk more about those things in a minute. I will mention that roughly 10% per year rental price increase seems pretty high to me. Like if I'm charging say, a thousand dollars a month, right now it's just really inexpensive, the least expensive ADU probably would go for a that I can bump it up by 10%, how 1100 bucks. And it like to, that's a pretty big bump. So that doesn't seem [00:14:00] like it's a problem from our landlord's perspective to me. Does it seem like one to you? Kurt: Well, I think what was happening is that, we touched on it a little bit earlier, but over the decade, last decade , 2010 to 2019 there was rents in Portland, went up a lot. So it also, and there was also a lot of redevelopment of existing rental stock. So what was happening is, a person buys a fourplex and, does an extensive renovation and then suddenly their market rent went from, and this is a, pretty accurate example probably about like went from 650 to 850 for a one bedroom.And suddenly their market rate was 1200, right. So that represents a significant increase in rent. But it was in line with the market. So I think you don't have a problem with this if your rents are already at market rates. But if you have situations, which is also really common, where especially if somebody owned, owned a property for 15 years and they've had the same tenant and maybe they've raised [00:15:00] rents, 5%, every five years or something like that, which isn't unusual, suddenly you're way behind in terms of what the market rent actually is.And so if you're in that position, then 10% , doesn't seem like that great of an increase, but I agree. I mean, if you're, all the, all the landlords, all the owners that I work with everybody is, and the rents are at market rates already. So they're not really going to be worried about, 9.9, 10%.What happens though, and what people are worried about is that landlords were automatically increase rents to that level every year, just to make sure that they don't fall behind. Because if you miss a year, then , you can't make it back up. And also the other thing to important, important to realize about that is you can't raise rents above the allowable level between tenants.So there's, there's this idea that the rent level sort of , it is dependent on the property. So if somebody moves out and they've lived there for 10 years and let's say, do use the ADU example, let's say they were paying $800, right. And , now you can get 1200, you [00:16:00] can't automatically raise it to 1200.At the most you can raise. It is the 9.9% is the allowable rate. So even though someone moved out, it's a new tenant, all of that stuff, you still have to only increase at 9.9% in the city of Portland. Obviously there's a lot of people here listening who aren't in Portland. But I think the idea here is that you see a lot of times, West coast and major cities leading the trends and some of these things. So I think as you start to see , this become an issue in more cities and also, ADUs becoming more common in places that aren't like Portland or aren't like Seattle, you'll see a lot of these, a lot of these regulations type, trickle down. And it really, it is like in Portland, it is an experiment. I mean, it's, it's really an attempt to see, like, does this work, does this, not, not depress, but does this sort of just suppress the rapid growth we were seeing in rent?Obviously , you can't now sort of get a good baseline because it's all been [00:17:00] thrown into chaos essentially with, what's going on, with COVID-19 and economic destruction from that. But that was really what the city was attempting to do is seem like, is, do, does this work essentially.Kol : So I'm generally concerned about restrictive rental regulations an…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    The ADU Hour w/guest Abdur Abdul-Malik Jun 01, 2021
    Show notes

    Kol Peterson: We are jumping into the ADU Hour series with our guest, Abdul Abdur-Malik. Thanks for joining us today. It's going to be really good getting into some really technical, nitty gritty stuff that I think we're all learning about. There's no codified information about some of the things that we're covering next, we're going to be learning a lot together, so look forward to it. Alright, Abdur come on out. Abdur Abdul-Malik: Good morning, Kol. How you doing? Kol Peterson: Good man. Good to see you. Abdur Abdul-Malik: Good to see you. Kol Peterson: Thanks for thanks for being our guest today. I think a lot of people are going to be really interested in what you've been researching. Why don't we just start by having you introduce yourself to our group? Abdur Abdul-Malik: Sure. So my name is Abdul Abdul-Malik. I'm a certified residential appraiser, that's licensed to appraise in Oregon and Washington. I'm a board member of the local Portland chapter of the American Society of Appraisers. I serve as their secretary. [00:03:00] I recently completed my candidacy for designation, and I'm now a designated member of the Appraisal Institute, NSRA, and I'm also very active in teaching appraisal concepts. I assist a nationally recognized instructor, George Dell, occasionally when he comes to teach appraisers. And recently I've been really delving deep into ADU valuations. Kol Peterson: Thanks Abdur. So we're going to dive right in, tell us about a term that. I've learned from you "functional obsolescence" and its relative application to ADUs. Abdur Abdul-Malik: Sure. So to explain that I'm going to use basically what's known as the Bible for real estate appraisers is called the Appraisal of Real Estate. And I'm going to read from the 13th edition, a couple of concepts that are very important to understand when it comes to the valuation of ADUs.So depreciation is a word that many of us have heard. And the definition for that is "the difference between the contributory value of an [00:04:00] improvement and the costs at the time of the appraisal." So the costs may have been higher initially, but at the time of the appraisal, it may be less .And there are many different sources of depreciation. And one of them, the one that's particularly relevant for Ady evaluations, is the term "functional obsolescence". And, bear with me here, I'm going to read this definition, but it's very important for the understanding of valuations of ADUs. So it's the functional obsolescence is caused by a flaw in the structure, materials, or design of the approvement when compared with the highest and best use and most cost-effective functional design requirements at the time of the appraisal. A building that was functionally adequate at the time of construction can become inadequate or less appealing as design standards, mechanical systems, and construction materials change over time. Functional obsolescence is attributable to defects within the property in contrast with external obsolescence, which deals with conditions outside the property.And here's the key portion for ADUs' functional obsolescence, which [00:05:00] may be curable or incurable can be caused by deficiency, which means that some aspect of the property is below standard and respect to market norms. It is also caused by a super adequacy, which means that some aspect of the subject property exceeds market norms. So that last part is the most relevant for the valuations of ADUs. It's not that an ADU is a bad thing to construct. In fact, they're very useful and they serve many different needs in the marketplace, but because the general market expectation is that these structures would not be present in most single family, detached homes, it's considered a super adequacy. Now what's considered a super adequacy today may not be considered one tomorrow. And my suspicion is, is that as ADUs continue to gain a greater market penetration, and they become a much more important part of the housing solution, they may actually in some marketplaces, be considered a norm, and perhaps that functional obsolescence will go away. [00:06:00] So it's not "once categorized a functional obsolescence, always an obsolescence". It's just that at the current time, the difference between what you'll pay for it and what the value return will be at the time an appraisal is done. Generally, is less than what you put into the home.Kol Peterson: Now it's not just ADUs that have some degree of functional obsolescence using appraiser speak, but almost any home improvement would have some degree of functional obsolescence. What types of home additions add value for resale from an appraiser's perspective?Abdur Abdul-Malik: Well a lot of times the easy ones are like a kitchen remodel, a bath remodel. Sometimes if the home is indeed very small for the consideration of the market, sometimes the person may add more physical space, a living area, to their home, and that may bring their home up to market expectation for the typical size of a house in their market. ADUs aren't the only additions that may sometimes have [00:07:00] less of a return in value. A great example here in Portland is a swimming pool. In some markets, a swimming pool will add value, but I have done a number of appraisals where a swimming pool contributed $0 to the return of investment. In fact agents will tell me some times that a home that had a pool when it's sold, the next owner would just backfill it and get rid of it. So definitely EDU's are doing a lot better than swimming pools in the Portland residential market. Kol Peterson: I saw a new one last week Abdur that was pretty cool. A woman was buying a high-end house in the West Hills that had a pool in a pool house and she was gonna convert the pool to an ADU.How's that for functional obsolecence? So how do ADU stack up relative to these other home improvements in terms of cost of construction versus resale value? So let's take kitchens, additions, garages. Abdur Abdul-Malik: Appraisers like to always hedge their statements by, "It depends". And so it really does depend on a number of different factors how they [00:08:00] stack up. We've all been to some kitchen remodels, maybe a friend shows you their kitchen remodel and you're just blown away. And you could tell that the quality and the craftsmanship is of high value and you would certainly expect in that case for high return then you've maybe been to a kitchen remodel where, you know, to put it politely, maybe it's "lipstick on a pig", right? And it just doesn't really give you the return that it could have otherwise have, if it had been done at a higher quality. So with ADU s, my research is showing that pretty much. Any ADU is going to give you some incremental boost in value. I have yet to do a valuation of an ADU where it was a $0 return, so that's the good news. When it comes to returns, it just depends on what your needs are for an ADU. Some people convert their basements into accessory dwelling units, and that can be a very cost effective way to get that ADU built for an inexpensive price. Others maybe do a [00:09:00] garage conversion or maybe they'll do a stack on to a garage. And then of course the most expensive option would be a detached ADU perhaps in the backyard. Those can be very expensive to construct. And so the market return will be high on those, but not as high as the cost to construct. Kol Peterson: We're going to have you give like a 10 minute summary in a minute here, but I want to take frame that by just raising the fact that you've mentioned in the past that this research may not necessarily be applicable in other markets. Before we provide this information for people's contexts, I want you to explain that a little bit for us.Abdur Abdul-Malik: The general principles of valuation, they certainly apply nationwide, but I always caution people. The numbers that I present are for the Portland market and they may or may not be directly translatable to a different market. An example might be the Bay area in California where median home prices are like $1.5 million. So if I say this [00:10:00] type of ADU gives you a 10% bump. It may or may not correlate directly to that market just because the dynamics are so different. I do say that, but Hopefully especially in Metro markets that maybe their medium prices are very similar to Portland, maybe even the market dynamics are very similar.Hopefully the numbers actually would provide some meaningful insight into what you could expect in your own local market. Kol Peterson: Unlike other days where we've just done a straight up interview for the whole time, I'm going to have Abdur do a 10 minute version of a really rich study that he's been gracious enough to be working on for a while.Really just for the benefit of everybody who's interested in this topic. So I'm going to hand it over to you Abdur, take it away. Abdur Abdul-Malik: This is a, an adaptive presentation that I gave at a conference called the Build Small Live Large, and this is titled "Case Studies, Appraising ADUs".We're just going to talk about how this project got started super quick. As you know, Kol Peterson is the national ADU expert and he made available to me a list of 1500 legal [00:11:00] ADU properties. And that was very useful because I took those properties and I went into the local MLS system, and I said, Hmm, which of these ADU properties have resold on the open market? As you can see here in this slide, I painstakingly went through the entire list of properties, and I highlighted the ones that did sell. And the idea was, let's take a look at the city of Portland. Let's take a look at the properties that have resold and as you can see, quite a few of them have actually resold since the ADU was constructed. And then let's just do appraisals. On the ADU and the appraisal definition from the Appraisal of Real Estate, 13th Edition is "the act or process of developing an opinion of value". So a bunch of mini appraisals are being done and appraisal theory recognizes three approaches to value. You have the income approach, you have the cost approach, and you have the sales comparison approach.The approach that we're using for this study is a sales comparison approach. The [00:12:00] other two have limitations when it comes to ADUs and the sales comparison approach, honestly, is the gold standard for valuation. It's going to be the the methodology that will give you the most likely return when you go to list and sell. The sales comparison approach it just involves comparing a property to similar sales in the open market.So if you have apples, you want to compare it to apples. You definitely don't want to compare it to oranges or the valuation will be suspect, but in this case, appraisers have toolkits that go on and on, and we're using many of those tools for the valuation. The main thing that we're doing with this valuation is we are staying in Portland for technical reasons. And the city of Portland is actually pretty nice because it has strongly defined neighborhoods. Everyone that's in the city of Portland is as part of a defined neighborhood. So we're, we're taking a property we're seeing which neighborhood is sold in, and then we're comparing [00:13:00] it to properties that are as similar as possible to that ADU property. With one exception, we are not using other properties with ADUs. Now, why would we do that? Because we're trying to isolate the contributory value of the ADU.If the main structure is a 1500 square foot home with a one-car garage we want to look at all the other 1500 square foot homes with a one-car garage, lacking an ADU, because if we do that, the difference between the two sales prices will tell us what the market attributed to that ADU. So, as we mentioned, we're sticking with those defined neighborhoods. We are doing our best to bracket every single attribute of the property, except that ADU. So I just want to run through maybe just a few examples. Here's a property that has a detached garage conversion [00:14:00] ADU this particular home sold in, in 2018.And so in this case, the ADU added 18% to the value. However, because the garage was converted, the homeowner lost the use of that garage, so that did result in some decrement in value. So when you shake out the gain for the ADU, the loss in the utility for the garage, the net gain for this property was 12%.This one was a new construction property with a basement ADU. It actually sold twice once as a new construction and then 14 months later on the open market as a resale. So in 2016, when it was a brand new construction that ADU contributed 6.1% to the value. Interestingly enough, when it's sold in 2017 , a year or two months later, the ADU added more. It actually added 16% to the value at that time. My guess, and this is, and this is just a guess, is that the new construction property, typically a buyer is very intentional [00:15:00] about what they want when it comes to new construction.And if they want something, they generally will seek out to have that constructed at the time that the home is being built. But once a home is resold, kind of like driving a car off a parking lot the dynamics of the market change, and in that case, the ADU actually gave a higher degree of contributory value because it was just a useful feature for people looking to purchase a home in the resale market. So again, another high-quality ADU conversion. Here is an attached ADU. So it is a separate unit, but it's attached on one side to the home. So in this case, the ADU added 24.6% of the value and for a dollar figure amount that was slightly over $125,000. So as you can see, that's a pretty substantial bump in value, but anyone who's constructed an ADU knows that it probably costs upwards of $200,000 to construct that attached ADU. This is where that term [00:16:00] again comes in depreciation. The difference between the cost of construction and the value at the time of the appraisal, functional obsolescence.Not that there's a flaw in having an ADU, but the definition encompasses the idea of a super adequacy. So maybe this is still a bit more than what the market would expect, but it's certainly contributed a substantial gain in value almost 25%. This was a detached garage conversion ADU. And this is where I started to see trends because detached garage conversion ADUs, when you factor in the loss of value for the garage versus the net gain, usually the differentials between five to 10%. So again, I don't know if that would apply in every market throughout the United States, but here in Portland, that's what I'm seeing that if you convert your garage you will probably boost the value up to close to 20%, but then you're going to lose maybe five to 10% because you've got to factor out the loss of the garage utility. [00:17:00] Size does play a role in how much an ADU will contribute to the resale value of a property. The smaller ones, the value can be quite small, still there, but smaller. And in the larger ones, of course, a bigger return.So this is a, another garage conversion. This one added 28.3%. Then again, factoring in the loss of the garage you can see about that 10% loss. So the net gain was 17.2%, and this one was actually a two, two level ADU garage conversion, which was very nicely done. Now this one, and this will be the final one, we take a look at. This one is essentially two homes. So this home was pretty small to begin with. And instea…

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    The ADU Hour w/guest Ezra Hammer May 25, 2021
    Show notes

    Kol: Here we are! Ezra, what's up, buddy? All right. Ezra: Cool. How are you? Kol: Good man. Thanks for coming on [00:02:00] today to be our guest on the ADU hour. So Ezra, we've been just jumping right into stuff pretty quickly, but let me just like, first of all, let me have you introduce yourself a little bit. I just, you know, briefly said you're with the Portland Home Builders Association. Tell us, give us a, like a, a one minute intro of who you are and how you came to be in the position that you're in. Ezra: Yeah, sure. And thanks for having me today. Really appreciate it. And so nice to see folks joining from all over the country and it looks like internationally too.Very cool. So I am a land use attorney by training. I practiced in Southern California, primarily in the Los Angeles region. My wife and I fell in love with beautiful Portland Oregon, as so many folks have, and we recently moved up here about a year and a half ago. And since that time I've been leading the efforts advocacy, lobbying, and education here at the home builders association of metropolitan Portland.We're a local HBA. There are chapters across the country and we engage with policymakers and decision-makers at the local and regional level [00:03:00] to help craft policies that are pro-housing, as we call them- kind of focused on allowing more housing, different types of housing, lower priced housing, housing that's accessible to all folks and you and I actually met because in my previous life, I was a big fan of yours down in Southern California.I actually have my copy of Backdoor Revolution right here. Highly recommend that everyone get one or get two. They make wonderful Christmas gifts and, and great gifts even in springtime. You'll notice that I have my sign here tab, so I will be looking for a signature next time I get to see you in person. But your book was actually an inspiration for a number of us who were working on ADU policies in the City of Los Angeles and in California, more broadly back in 20 15, 16 and 17, I, I saw you speak before I believe a Senate committee in California working [00:04:00] with one of our senators down there who was very interested in allowing for more ADUs. And we actually took a lot of your ideas and copied and pasted them into conversations that were being had in Los Angeles at the time. It was a pretty pitched battle in LA, as I'm sure practitioners who are joining us today from that area can attest to, and it actually came to a head at a point in time when the state kind of shrug their shoulders, said enough is enough and took away a local control for jurisdictions like Los Angeles that had really been recalcitrant in implementing a series of regulations that legalized ADUs. I think as many folks recognize that it's been a fantastic smashing success down there and throughout Southern California in all of California generally. And a big part of that is thanks to you and the work you've done advocating for and educating folks about accessory dwelling units.Kol: Well, thanks for the I was more of a flattery than itself introduction, but I really appreciate it Ezra, [00:05:00] and yeah, I mean, that was kind of the goal of the book was to kind of lay out some statistically based evidence to back up some of the policy ideas that has been bantered around for a while and were just hard to kind of get enacted into local ordinances and then California in 2017, put forward this pretty aggressive legislation and then doubled down in 2018 or maybe I'm getting those wrong years wrong.But and that kind of set the pathway in terms of showing that state legislative approaches are perhaps not only a good idea, but maybe even a best practice as far as getting these types of updates done. The way I think about it now is, I mean, and I'm having firsthand experience with this in Oregon.Now I'm on rulemaking for HB 2001, but HB 2001, which we've talked about in a previous show. And we'll talk about more today and the California legislation. I would say [00:06:00] that it's not a unfair statement to say it was actually less work to pass the statewide ordinances than to pass the same kinds of ordinances at the local level. What do you think about that? Ezra: Yeah, I think you're hitting the nail right on the head there, Kol. You know, it's interesting to see States like Oregon and California borrow practices from States in the South and Midwest where this has been standard practice for quite some time. The devolution of complete authority to local jurisdictions to manage land use is not something that's practiced nationwide. It's something that's unique to a lot of high priced urban markets where there's been an expectation of extensive community engagement and feedback for even the smallest projects, going back to the 1960s and seventies as a way to push back against some of the darker times of urban renewal.But in other parts of the country statewide regulations around housing are [00:07:00] pretty common practices. I often speak with my counterparts in Texas or Indiana who work on pieces of legislation that are total no-brainers but would be extremely difficult to get implemented at the local level. And, and they deal with it all at the state level.Just an example, Texas recently prohibited jurisdictions from putting in place material restrictions on houses that would kind of otherwise limit what sort of material builders could use in homes. Obviously they have building code standards there and they ensure material that they use is safe.But what we've seen a number of jurisdictions do up and down the West coast has kind of arbitrarily set standards and what can be used on houses. As a way to drive up the cost of housing kind of control the type of housing that can get built. And the cumulative effect of these regulations year over year are higher housing costs.So I think dealing with things at the statewide level makes a ton of sense. Although it's great to have community participation for many [00:08:00] things, when it comes to small scale housing, oftentimes we need to take a deep breath, step back, and really let policymakers shape a series of regulations that are going to open the door for housing. Because quite frankly, Kol, we've been failing doing that at the local level.There was a great report that came out in 2018 from Smart Growth America and ecoNorthwest here in Portland that highlighted the fact that since the great recession we've under built in Oregon, 155,000 units of housing as a ratio of household formation. I know for folks in California, that sounds like a drop in the bucket, but that's really impactful here in Oregon.And the same report showed that there's about a 6% increase in overall housing costs associated just with that scarcity. And so when we talk about tools to help craft housing that is more accessible to more Oregonians and more, more people, generally, we need to take [00:09:00] into account the fact that we have not been building enough housing and a big reason for the fact we haven't been building that housing is because local governments put impediments in place to inhibit folks from building.Kol: So let's go back to HBA for a second to tell us a little bit about the organizational structure of HBA. You are in a local chapter. How are you connected to a national organization? Is there a national organization in DC and how do all those chapters play out nationally? Ezra: Yeah, sure. So the home builders association of metropolitan Portland, we're a member-driven organization. Our membership is primarily builders, developers, remodelers who build small scale single family and multifamily housing. Our folks generally don't work with steel. That's kind of the rule of thumb. So anything over four stories, our folks aren't building anything under that, they probably are. As well as all the trade professionals and suppliers , the legal folks, the engineers, everybody that's kind of in that universe of smaller scale [00:10:00] residential developments.Like you mentioned, we are a a chapter organization. So we work in partnership with the Oregon home builders association. They work down in Salem and we coordinate our efforts to advance kind of policy at the local regional and state level. And we're also members of the national association of home builders, which has a big honkin building in DC.You know, they're working on things like home buyer, tax credits ensuring that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are, are, are up and running effectively. But we, we don't, you know, we, we don't work with them on policy at the local level just because each jurisdiction is different. And we need to be crafting policies that are right for Portland and more broadly, right for Oregon. Kol: So tell us about the national structure of HBA in terms of the DC representation, national association of home builders. What's that? What do they do and how are you guys tied into them?Ezra: Yeah. So all of the local chapters are kind of members [00:11:00] of the broader organization, the national association of home builders, and they they do education, advocacy and lobbying at the at the federal level. So they work closely with HUD and secretary Carson. They work with congressional leaders.They've been actively engaged in conversations around the COVID-19 relief efforts and ensuring there's a appropriate number of dollars being dedicated to the triple P program to help our small businesses and ensure that they can remain viable during these difficult economic times. So they're doing grant work out of DC and, and we try to do good work here locally.Kol: So I wanted to dive into HBA's role with regard to middle housing legislation. So are we just really lucky to have you and your colleagues here in Portland who are doing middle housing type of advocacy and education in local jurisdictions around the Portland Metro area, [00:12:00] or is that a national policy that, that the national association of home builders is doing you know, countrywide?Ezra: Yeah. So, as I mentioned before we set we set policy, our organizational policy at the local level. It's just too difficult to coordinate with the hundreds of chapters that exist around the country. And quite frankly, I don't know what's right for Indiana. I don't know what's right for North Carolina and I certainly don't know what the right fit is for, for, for Boston.But what we do know is that here locally, middle housing is a critical piece of the overall housing picture. And we have members that build it. They build it with great success. And we have seen middle housing kind of proliferate throughout. The Portland Metro region and have really positive impacts region wide.We're starting to see great product getting built in communities like Tigard and Milwaukee, where they've really been at the forefront of progressive conversations around middle housing. We've seen the incredible [00:13:00] steps that the city of Portland has taken to advance conversations with the residential infill project, although they haven't passed it yet, there's been a ton of great conversation.And we've been part of many of those many of those conversations for the past five years. So, you know, here locally, we really recognize that middle housing and by middle housing, you know, we think expansively. So it's everything from accessory dwelling units, townhomes, multiple units on a lot up to, up to four in whatever kind of form that they take.But we found that when you liberalize the types of housing that can get built, not only do you kind of expand the marketplace of folks that can participate in building new housing, which is a real positive because you let homeowners kind of actively engage in that market and bring good housing to the marketplace for folks to to rent or to buy. But you also produce myriad types of housing. And I think that's the piece that's been the most exciting quite frankly Kol, because for so long, like, like the viewers know, and [00:14:00] like, you know you know, planners have relied on kind of monochromatic maps to say the light yellow goes here and the red goes here and the blue goes there and never shall they ever meets.And this is how we show, advance our society. And for anybody that's traveled in Latin America or Europe or or, or many parts of the globe, they'll say that that's not how housing has to be. And I think over the years. And, and middle housing has really been a big piece of this. It's helped us chip away at those kind of outdated Euclidean models of zoning, and really allowed us to think more creatively about the types of housing that folks need.I live in a multi-generational household, like many Portlanders do. We were thankful enough to have my mother come live with us right before the pandemic. And, you know, had we lived in a community let's say with restrictive covenants that had kind of prohibited that type of intergenerational, it would have been really hard on our family [00:15:00] and middle housing plays a role in giving people the type of flexibility that they need to get the type of housing that's most appropriate for Kol: So you came to Portland by way of LA, as you mentioned, and LA has become a huge hotbed of ADU activity, I would say it's yeah, it's fair to say it's objectively the best well, the biggest market in the country for ADUs right now, 5,000 or so permits issued last year alone in 2019. So it's, it's been pretty phenomenal. Can you help explain why LA has since seen such a groundswell of ADU permits being issued and, and and say like we already, like, we've already kind of covered that there is some legislative changes at the state level, but why LA, why aren't we seeing tens of thousands being built in say San Jose instead of LA?Ezra: Yeah, I know that's, that's a great question Kol. So Los Angeles, like any practitioners from there we'll know, or anybody that's lived down there and we'll know the entire Southern California region, but LA specifically is just starved for housing.You know, it, it was a open secret [00:16:00] before the city took the appropriate steps to liberalize accessory dwelling units that there were likely tens of thousands of unpermitted units existing in the city. A couple of estimates that I've seen put that number upwards of 50,000 throughout the entire city.And many of these were built to appropriate code standards. They just didn't have the appropriate paperwork and land use authorization to allow them to be quote- unquote legal. Many of them, unfortunately, weren't built to appropriate code, but that was due in large part to the fact that government had made it so onerous to build an accessory dwelling unit that any rational person would just shrug their shoulders and ignore the system altogether. Before LA took the steps that it did, again, driven in large part by the great great work of the California legislature, folks were asked to go through a year- long entitlement process that was entirely discretional. The costs generally were 40 to a hundred thousand dollars in permits, [00:17:00] legal fees, and land use planner fees.And all it took was one disgruntled neighbor to show up and yell at a hearing officer about lack of parking or neighborhood character or disruption to the community or any sort of those kind of standard tropes that we hear from folks. And, and their application would be denied. Before I was a land use attorney, I had the pleasure of working for Councilman Mike Bond and in the city of Los Angeles.For those of you that are familiar with LA, each council membe…

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    The ADU Hour w/guest Robert Liberty Apr 29, 2021
    Show notes

    Kol Peterson: [00:02:02] it's the man of the hour. I'm just going to quickly introduce Robert Liberty a colleague and friend and we've been working and strategizing on ADU stuff together for a long time. More closely in the last few years. Robert was the head of the Portland State University's Institute for Sustainable Solutions and he focused that Institute's efforts on ADU related activities, which we'll be talking about momentarily. More recently Robert built an ADU in his house, so we're going to be talking about that, too. And also some of his previous experiences related to land use legislation or land use law in Oregon, which is a really fascinating topic in its own right. We'll be talking a little bit about the connection between the urban growth boundary policies. He's also a former elected official with Metro. So welcome Robert any opening remarks before we launch into some questions? Robert Liberty: [00:02:54] No, launch!. Kol Peterson: [00:02:56] All right. So we're going to start off by talking about the history of the urban [00:03:00] growth boundary a little bit, which I just alluded to. It's referred to colloquially locally as the UGB. So we'll, that's what we'll call it.A lot of people on the call might know what the UGB is, but in essence, every city in Oregon regardless of size has a urban growth boundary. And we're going to show off what that looks like in practice, but the regulation of housing is also part of the Oregon land use program. Can you tell us something about that, Robert?Robert Liberty: [00:03:24] Yeah, I think people don't know about the program other than we have urban growth boundaries, limit growth, somehow think that was going to limit the amount of housing production, but from the very beginning, one of the problems that was tackled by these laws starting 40 years ago was the zoning that limited housing choice to single family homes on large lots and often big homes.So right from the beginning, there was an understanding that if you're going to be more compact in your growth patterns you should also increase housing choices. And the supply of land was much less of a factor in the cost of housing than the regulations of [00:04:00] housing. So the same time urban growth boundaries were drawn starting at the state level, we went through every city and every urban part of every County and said look, "you've got a rezone land for apartments, for smaller lots, for duplexes, for townhomes, and that was accomplished largely in the 1980s. And it's made a huge difference. Kol Peterson: [00:04:17] So given that no other state in the nation has an urban growth boundary, does this concept even matter in this conversation about infill housing? Or is it kind of pointless to even talk about it because no other state has anything like it.Robert Liberty: [00:04:32] Well, actually, it's not true that no other state has anything like it. The state of Washington has urban growth areas and scattered across the country in places as varied as South Dakota and Kentucky, in Colorado, you find urban growth boundaries, even though a little town and township in Michigan called Frankenmuth. And Lexington, Kentucky, and they won't call it this, but Sioux Falls, South Dakota has virtually the same thing. Ventura County Northern California. So there's, I don't [00:05:00] know, maybe 15 million people living in communities with urban growth boundaries. What I've found is all of them end up having the same elements and one of them is to change the regulation and zoning to allow more housing to be produced. Kol Peterson: [00:05:15] So it has some political relevance, at least in those areas. Robert Liberty: [00:05:20] Well, it has political relevance and I think there's real concern now and understanding about what housing regulations done to limited people's housing choices.And I think that can be a starting point for talking about, "well, how do we grow generally?" And how does this connect to climate change? And maybe we can talk about that later. So it's a different political world than it was in the 1980s. We all know that, it's a different world than it was 20 years ago, but there may be an opportunity for change accelerated by the pandemic actually.Kol Peterson: [00:05:48] Yeah, actually, I'm going to do a quick thing here and share two slides that show and what an urban growth boundary looks like just as a really quick illustration of [00:06:00] what the urban growth boundary does. Robert can you just briefly talk about these two slides here. Robert Liberty: [00:06:04] Yeah. These are what are called figure grounds which are actually the black is the structure.And they were done by the New York times. They weren't done by anyone here in Oregon and this shows Portland metropolitan region. And the urban growth boundary is really obvious in this. It's not drawn in. It just shows how development has been made contiguous and more efficient.If you go to the next slide, this is the same kind of map from Charlotte, North Carolina, which is virtually identical metropolitan population, and a very similar growth rate. So you can see there's a huge difference. And this makes a big difference to the economy, to society, and to greenhouse gases and yes, it does connect accessory dwelling units. And we'll talk about that. Kol Peterson: [00:06:49] Great. Thanks. So one of the things that I've observed as a resident of Portland for roughly a decade is that my perception [00:07:00] is that there's kind of a cultural, I want to actually have you check me on this, but my perception is there's this cultural acceptance towards infill housing and density as a result in part of the influence of the UGB, which was established in '73, and that's kind of inculcated itself into the culture and the ethos of Portlanders at least.Is that accurate? Do you think, do you think that's accurate in terms of understanding the mentality of acceptance towards infill housing? Robert Liberty: [00:07:28] I think it is part of it because the arguments have been made for 40 years. We've had seven ballot measures at the state level dealing with the planning program, for and against, and by and large, the public has reinforced it.And I want to clarify something because people get confused to hear about urban growth boundary for Portland. It's not an urban boundary for Portland is for the entire metropolitan region for 24 cities. And every city in Oregon has one. Antelope has a population of 50, it has an urban growth boundary. So this is widely understood as a basic strategy [00:08:00] of saving lands we need for farm and forest production and natural resources and being more efficient with taxpayer dollars as well. So yes, it has become, you know, I've back in the day when I took taxis home from the airport, I'm not making this up, taxi driver brought up urban growth boundary. So yes, it is part of the thinking, but I think the other part of that thinking is.There's some benefits about growing efficiently and using the structures and land we have that have nothing to do with saving farm and forest land, that are good in themselves. If our landscape looked like the moon, there would still be good reasons to do what we've done and to make it easier for people to have housing choices and reduce regulations.So, yes, I think there is a culture, but this is what I utterly reject, because I often do presentations and I show a picture of Oz and the characters from Oz and the background is Portland under these green towers. [00:09:00] So this is just wrong. We were so much like every other state in 1973. I mean, we were basically, Columbus, Ohio with fruit trees and bracket fungus or sagebrush, depending what part of the state.And we became different by working on it. And it was very contentious, Kol, as you know, it's still very contentious in Portland. It wasn't easy and it's actually the fight over these things that helps people understand them. So other places say, "Oh, we couldn't do that it'd be too controversial." The answer is, "Yes, you can do it, yes it will be controversial and overcoming the controversy is part of the education process." So for those interested in ADU design so far, this. It was a bomb. So we get into the ADUs more, but you and I are both interested in the big policy setting for ADUs. Kol Peterson: [00:09:50] That's largely what I wanted to talk about with you is these policy aspects. You bring a lot to the table with these policy discussions. You have a rarefied set of skills and experience, [00:10:00] so we're going to focus on that. For several years you orchestrated a Sustainability Institute housed within PSU and focusing the institutes efforts on ADU production.Can you tell us about the initial goals of that program and whether it was successful? Robert Liberty: [00:10:13] Yeah. The Institute for Sustainable Solutions work on a variety of topics, but this was one and we picked it because it had a high profile. Thanks, in large part, to the work of you and colleagues of yours, like Eli Spevak and making this a big issue, even though ADUs had been authorized in Portland for 30 years, actually, and regionally for 30 years, not much production.So the idea was, can we look at all the barriers to production other than regulation and what can we do about cost financing, permit processing, site suitability designs and so on. So we commissioned some work and one set of projects were five standard designs for ADUs to serve different markets from smaller to larger.In fact, the center for Public Interest Design at Portland [00:11:00] State had a studio on that. And one of the designs is likely to be built now. That was one project, another was a survey of hundreds of ADU owners and tenants, and all the prior surveys that we were aware of interviewed only the owners and not the tenants.Another was some research into site suitability in the city of Portland, and then we convened people in finance to talk about how to increase access to financing for people that didn't have a lot of equity and savings. We talked about a wide variety of topics.How successful? Well, this is part of a conversation you and I have been here having for while, which is people want this to go to scale, but so far, except in a few places, scale has been pretty modest. And why is that? And can you do this at scale and what is the role of government? But I would say that we don't know yet. It's a little too soon to tell what the results might be. Some of the work is clearly helpful. Some of it has not been helpful. [00:12:00] Kol Peterson: [00:12:00] Yeah. I have a general mentality of urgency around ADU production. I'm tired of dilly dallying, and I want to see success. I want to highlight programs that have worked as opposed to spending political capital and money and effort on things that might work, but haven't proven to work. And so that's kind of the underlying skepticism I have around some of these really good sounding programs that I see a lot of municipalities and institutions trying to promote.And I'll give an example of this, standardized plans. Obviously that sounds like an easy win. It sounds like a good idea. A lot of jurisdictions are putting effort into design contests, have standardized plans, but we've seen a standardized set of plans in Santa Cruz in 2003 and those were not used even once, ever. And now we see that same thing happening in Seattle and San Diego, and a lot of other jurisdictions are trying to [00:13:00] standardize plans. And that doesn't have any impact, or at least hasn't, now it could potentially, but I don't want to have, I don't want to see governments spinning their wheels on things that haven't proven to be successful.I'd rather have them focus on things that we know can actually help. Robert Liberty: [00:13:16] Well, I think that this particular topic is an interesting one because when we started our work, you were very polite in our big collaborative meetings. By the way, I do recommend those, bringing all these different people together to talk about it generated a lot of activity and interest. But you were very skeptical, and so was Eli. I remember going up to Vancouver and talking to Jake, who you had on your program, I think on Wednesday and on his wall, he had a series of very beautiful renderings of different designs, and I think he mentioned them briefly. I said, how many of those have you built? And he said, "none". So, that's very important but one of the things that I have questions about is, is it because we're talking a very early [00:14:00] pioneering market in the limited place. So the house I'm in is a 1945 house. It's 1100 square feet, including the attic. And it was one of about 40 built in our neighborhood all at once. So those were standardized designs and those were middle-class homes. So it may be that the people who build ADU is now tend to be more affluent, have disposable income care, more about design, and maybe people who earn $60,000 dollars a year and have a big backyard say, "Well, fine, Model B with the brown countertops is fine." So I don't know, yet, but this is part of the bigger question, too. The idea of standardized designs was to reduce the time required to do it, and maybe the cost. I think the cost issue is a big one and the design part is not necessarily a big part of the cost.You know, it might be 10%. So I would say, if we want to have large scale production, then we ought to be looking at settings where this might work and markets where [00:15:00] that might work and you have to have the financing and the outreach, and then standardized designs. The percentage of Americans who live in single-family homes designed by architects must be a fraction of a percent. Most of them are some variation of standardized design. So as I recall, and I'm going to send this question back to you. One of the issues though, that's for detached units is the backyards have too many variations in them. And that's one reason, but how do you feel about why standardized designs don't work? Kol Peterson: [00:15:31] I'm asked this question a lot by every pre-fab company in the world that wants to start doing standardized designs. And I always like to caveat my response with it could work. In fact, there's three companies in the whole United States where it is working, but there's a hundred companies for whom it's not working and they go out of business. So I don't want to say it can't work, but I will say that the only companies that for whom it has worked are coming in at really inexpensive price points, that seems to be the common theme [00:16:00] amongst them, and they are standardized plans. So it can theoretically work based on those few examples, but for most companies it doesn't seem to be working.And there's a whole bunch of reasons why not the least of which is, "Hey, I'm spending at least a $100,000, if not $200,000 on this unit. I want to have some say over some architectural aspects of how it's gonna look and how it's gonna lay out on my property and what the orientation of the doors and windows and electrical and utility connections from the primary house will be in my particular property."So I think that's a reasonable thing for any homeowner to anticipate being able to have some control over. PrefabADU.Com is the most successful in terms of market rate adoption they've built several hundred ADUs in the U S, most of which are prefab, predesigned, standardized plans.Robert Liber…

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    The ADU Hour w/guest Jake Fry Apr 14, 2021
    Show notes

    Kol Peterson: [00:01:38] It is Earth Day! That is exciting because for a lot of us the whole ADU movement is really around environmental issues or is precipitated by environmental issues. It is for me. I didn't even realize it was earth day till, Kelcy reminded me. Kelcy King: [00:01:56] Happy earth day, everyone. Thanks for supporting this [00:02:00] content and supporting Kol and all of our guests. Kol Peterson: [00:02:02] So let's bring out Jake. Jake Fry: [00:02:03] I just want to, before we start to say, this is such a great idea. And I'm really honored to be asked to join in this discussion. I think it's really tremendous all the work you've done over the years.Kol Peterson: [00:02:13] Thanks man. Jake Fry: [00:02:14] Kudos to you. Kol Peterson: [00:02:15] Yeah, this is great. And I am honored to be able to pull this kind of thing together with people your caliber, to be able to share the wealth of information that you have. I've been just diving right into heavy material because that's what we're doing. Why don't I start by just having you do a one minute intro of you and your company and your relationship to ADUS?Jake Fry: [00:02:40] Sure. I will say, , And, and the immediate front , I think I'm most known for the running of my company, which I started in 2005, in Vancouver, Canada, I think on some level, it's a different country and we have different dynamics that are happening here. It's a fairly small city. It's only about a million people, when you look at the greater [00:03:00] city. We really had a number of pressures on our urban environment and I was always enamored with the ADU form. And it was something that I was just drawn to. My background had been as a carpenter. Going back to that early two thousands, did this seem that something had to happen in our town that was going to be different. Land prices through speculation were just going through the roof. Housing, even at that point was an issue, it's even more so now. And there was issues of affordability and this urban growth and what the city was going to look like and how it was going to change.And for me, although there's never a magic bullet to these urban matters, the ADU makes so much sense. And I just basically stuck a flag in the ground and said, we're going to make this happen. And I worked really hard, advocating for the built form. There had been some precedent from historical, little coach houses, that existed in the city and some precedent through heritage retention that, that wasn't completely without example, but we were able to really push it.And by 2009 through [00:04:00] some pretty concerted effort around marketing and getting people on board, we actually got a citywide ordinance passed and opened up 70,000 building sites to ADUs. And since that time, , I think we've maintained sort of a leadership role. , certainly we're very, very active in advocacy as the built form is involved in the city.Personally our company's put in a little over 300 ADUs , and citywide we've certainly capped over 5,000 across the city and it continues to be a very strong built form within this sort of spectrum of housing in Vancouver.Kol Peterson: [00:04:35] Wow. There's so many different things I want to ask you about now that I didn't even think about writing initially. So I'm just going to go in that direction for a moment. You just said that, the city of Vancouver has roughly 5,000 ADUs. Now, I think we should just do a little bit of myth dispelling about some of the numbers that are coming out of Vancouver.A lot of the documentation media coverage about the ADU scene in Vancouver says vast number [00:05:00] of homes have ADUs. So let's talk about the vernacular that's used in Vancouver and talk about the legal permitted secondary suites and the unpermitted secondary suites and just kind of help tease those different issues apart for us.Jake Fry: [00:05:13] A hundred percent. And so, I think that's a great point you bring up, I mean, for us, a couple of things, what we immediately considered to be ADU is a standalone building in the rear of the property. And I know from our work that we're starting to do in California, the ADU also includes what we call a secondary suite.So going back to the eighties, certainly in the nineties, land value starts going up in everybody. And his brother puts in an illegal suite in their basement. It's a very common built form. It took about 12 years for that to become a legalized citywide and so some of our numbers around ADUs include that. If you were to look at the city and to tease out those numbers, we have a city core , which is very urban and lots of towers and condominiums.And that's an ongoing concern, but about 85 [00:06:00] percent our land mass is a traditional single-family home development where we have, you know, kind of a grid pattern. Although we're hemmed in by mountains and ocean, we have a bit of a grid pattern. Those that grid has lots of laneways.Up and down those streets and varying sizes, we have single family homes. And so if you were to land here in 2000, I would say a large percentage of those homes, quite, quite big. We have a scenario where we have a basement suite. Some sort of rental unit within the home, that became legalized towards the late nineties, early two thousands.Subsequent to that, moving up to 2009, is when we have this rear unit that could then be legalized. In both cases, they were few and far between, where you have an ownership model with that built form, it's all rental where it would be commonplace in a block. If you were to go to a typical street right now, I would say it wouldn't be uncommon to see half the homes having a basement suite , and maybe one or two of [00:07:00] those homes having a rear ADU.And if we were to tease that out a bit more, I would say we roughly have about 1% housing stock that gets torn down per annum, and rebuilt. And I would say over 75% of those new builds, which is somebody who's come in and whether it's for development or speculation, or just because they're building their dream home. They're putting a new house in the property. But 75% of those people will install a secondary suite in the basement and an ADU in the backyard because it's square footage that otherwise wouldn't be there. There's no cost to it beyond construction. And about 25% of the ADUs that go in, maybe even a little less, tend to be someone just going, "Oh, I need to house my kids or, my Mom and I are going to consolidate our properties and she's going to live in the backyard or I'm going to live in the backyard."So that's, that's kind of the preview. What small works does. We only do the infield part of that, that market . Kol Peterson: [00:07:55] So when we talk about the secondary suites, [00:08:00] do you have solid numbers or a guess as to actual permitted numbers, there are versus unpermitted secondary suites that exist?Jake Fry: [00:08:10] Well, there was an amnesty program. So if there's unpermitted, laneway, unpermitted secondary suites, I think they call them California they call them junior ADUs, they're going to be pretty modest. No, I don't have those numbers, but that amnesty program has been extinct for a long time. As an aside, if you build a single family home, you have to put provisions for a secondary suite in the basement, even if you're going to use it for family use, because rental is so rare here that they don't want to be in a position where they don't have that opportunity with future owners to have an ADU.Kol Peterson: [00:08:43] Dive into that a little bit more for us, Jake. So you're saying it's a building code requirement or planning zoning requirement that you must create a secondary suite ready lower level? Jake Fry: [00:08:53] A hundred percent. If you're doing a single family home, you have to have some accommodation that in the [00:09:00] future, that rear unit or some part of the home could accommodate a standalone living unit. Even if it's not going to be at the original point of usage. . Kol Peterson: [00:09:11] And that's, that's a pretty, aggressive standard. I really like it. Do you know of any other places that are doing that? Jake Fry: [00:09:20] No. You know, and I have to say Kol, , and not to toot Vancouver's horn, but, , I think there's, there's a couple of things that are really different.And again, maybe I could use a comparison to California because we've been looking at the Bay area a lot, cause it's very similar. What we have here is a different tax structure than you do in the States. Canada has a longstanding relationship, because it's part of the Commonwealth, with Hong Kong. I won't attribute it strictly to that, but there has been , in the last 25 years, quite a bit of, investment in property in Vancouver. And in the last 15 years, it's very speculative and because we have a different tax [00:10:00] structure than you do in the States, it's a really good place to legally shelter money with property. They don't look at their global wealth. They just look at what wealth they have in Canada. And there's any number of drivers that makes it a very attractive place to invest money in real estate. And it's a very large community, a diverse community in Vancouver. So it was also an established community of Chinese origin. And so there was any number of driving factors that really in the end basically just took the land value in this, blew it out of proportion for what local economy would support. So by example , about 4% of the earners can actually afford a single family home. The top 4% of the earners can afford a single family home in Vancouver. So, you know, we have trouble attracting doctors because even at , a good rate of a surgeon, it's still pretty expensive to buy a house here. There's lots of home ownership that's people having homes through family and so forth. But if you were to actually land in [00:11:00] Vancouver and trying to buy a home, not conceivable, to be able to do that with a normal income and certainly blue collar or middle-class income, it's almost impossible. In comparison to California. Where there are local high earning people, right? So there are people in the tech industry and yes, that's kind of a real negative effect around land prices. And that kind of wage disparity that happens , is quite acute in that part of the world that has its own challenge. But. Going back to your key point. What's the driver behind this rental is so important for local people to live here. We haven't been able to crack the nut on affordability or their home homeownership attainability, which is something that I think, we've been really working on , along with others.10 years ago, we have such an emergency. We have to enforce an ability to at least create rental stock. And that's really what was behind both the basement suite ADU or the junior ADU and the ADU develop. Kol Peterson: [00:11:56] So Vancouver is prices are roughly akin [00:12:00] to the Bay area, I believe. So could you talk about the average price point for a single family house in Vancouver. And then talk about how you see laneway homes fit into economic sustainability for homeowners who are looking at buying a property or who are thinking about building one? Jake Fry: [00:12:17] Yeah. So, this in two little pieces. So first off, what is the average property value? If you were looking at the average stand-alone home. It's going to range from the East to the West side. The further West, you get closer to the ocean, the higher the prices, but I'd say as an average, we're creeping up to $2 million for a single family home. And just to put that in context, our mean income is $80,000 per family , so there's a big disparity . Of course there are, there's always those properties that sort of skew the price at a $10 million property, $12 million property. And we do have quite a few of those. But I would say even if you were to scrub those outliers outside of the equation, you still dealing with homes that are well over $1.8 million on [00:13:00] average. Kol Peterson: [00:13:00] Right, that, just for everybody's reference, I think that's almost the exact same price point as the Bay area, right? Jake Fry: [00:13:09] Yeah. And that's probably the only large jurisdictional area within the United States where that's a comparable price point for sales on the homes.Yeah. And one of the questions is ,this popped up in the string and we weren't taking it, but someone's saying, "well, what's that how's that compared to a American dollar?" And yeah the Canadian dollar is much lower right now, but I mean, our earned dollars are the same, right? So a carpenter with a truck who's really skilled, he might have an annual income of $110k, or his family might have an annual income, $110,000, but it's for pretty skilled employee who's rarefied here.Right. So, just to put it in context, I would think a Bay area carpenter of a similar quality would make the same in American money. So in some respects, I think it's a level playing field, right? We're, we're really judging this against income.Kol Peterson: [00:13:58] The second part was how do you [00:14:00] think of secondary suites and laneway homes fitting into economic sustainability and, and sorry. And also just the homeowner mentality around the role that ADUs play.Jake Fry: [00:14:11] Yeah, sure. I'm going to break it into two parts because I think it's important. I'm going to focus on what we tend to do, which is that we're a green builder. We believe in embedded energy, the importance of keeping that principal residence because that's probably the greenest thing anyone can do as opposed to ripping down a house and building new for new sakes. So in our context, how that fits into affordability's, it's twofold probably about 80% of our customers tend to have some sort of familial relationship with the current property owner. So really typical scenario is a young couple. maybe they're just married, but they've been living together. Maybe they lived in a condo, maybe they were renting. Maybe they owned a condo and they're going to start a family. And one of the parents of the couple is like, well, build in the backyard it's all yours, you pay for it. [00:15:00] And all of a sudden you're living really nice setting, close to schools and close to babysitters, being the grandparents and so forth. That's really typical for us. It's incredibly affordable.A two bedroom condo downtown is getting close to $2,000 a month. If we were to build one of our nicer homes, we're probably just under $400,000. The cost of service that mortgage right now is probably around $1,800, something like that. And so all of a sudden we've moved from a rental scenario to a scenario where you're actually building up some equity. Now, on paper these lane homes are ADUs are for rental, but when you're dealing with a family member and they're putting equity in the property, whether it's a handshake or a formal legal document, people make arrangements so that equity's protected. And we've also found that, anecdotally, those people who've built an ADU and sold it generally make [00:16:00] about 20% off their investment on the property. So it's kind of a win-win. So if the family, and we've had this before, a family buys a home, they do it together. They lived there for a while. They sell, they both make money off the inves…

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    The ADU Hour w/guest Eli Spevak Apr 08, 2021
    Show notes

    Full text of interviewKol: [00:01:48] I'm just gonna quickly introduce who Eli is. But not a really formal introduction. I'll let him do that. But Eli and I have been co-conspirators in a number of different initiatives and [00:02:00] activities and educational programs over the last decade. And so he and I worked together in a symbiotic way on a number of different things and not the least of which is we run AccessoryDwellings.org together, which is a volunteer run website.And Eli and I kind of started that and have been running it since for a long time. So there's a lot of things we could talk about. But first I'll just, have you just maybe briefly introduce yourself Eli to the group. Eli: [00:02:27] All right. Well, thank you, Kol and thanks for hosting this series. It's a great idea. I am currently sequestered in the common house for our community keeping as far away from my two little kids as I can, who are trying to homeschool. I started doing affordable housing development in Portland, about 25 years ago, originally in the nonprofit sector with Habitat for Humanity and some community-based groups and came to love the small homes that we were building and the market wasn't building small homes at all.And so for environmental reasons, and for affordability reasons, I got interested in accessory dwellings, which Portland allowed for a long time. But [00:03:00] weren't getting very many of them built. So I will jump forward to today where I am a developer and a general contractor. I built ADUs I worked with AARP to help launch them other parts of the country city and the state level, and done tours, the website. And I just, I geek out on them. I'd done condominiums where you solve them separately. I've tried to fuss around with them any way I can and just trying to get the new, more broadly available then they are today. Kol: [00:03:24] Great. Thanks, Eli. All right. So we're just going to jump right into the heavy stuff.Cause that's what I like to do here. So Eli, please, udpate us on what's happening now in Portland and in Oregon at large, with changes to residential zoning standards. Eli: [00:03:38] Well, that's a short question. So I started one of the things I had, I also, where as I serve on the planning and sustainability commission of Portland that I chair and I led a group for a while before shifting roles to try and expand housing options in the neighborhoods of Portland.So Portland is going back over seven years now, we've been trying to update our residential zones so that instead of seeing these huge single family homes, 2,500 square [00:04:00] foot, or larger get built on single family, lots, there'll be other options of what we get built. And the residential infill project is an outcome of that.And also, pressure from neighbors to build smaller than because they're tired of the large homes getting built. This has been a very politically challenging process. And that means it's taken a long time. But the, the nugget of it is that Portland is now going to not let you build as large a structure on a lot, but there's going to be more flexibility about what happens inside that structure. And that would mean go up to two, three or four units on a lot, even six units. If there's some affordability component to them, it's gone through the planning commission. We monkeyed around with it quite a bit to staff's chagrin.And now it's at city council. And it was about to be voted on literally. It was on the agenda for city council when city council shut down for COVID-19. So, for a project has gone on this long. It's still not done yet. They're hoping that it gets done by the end of this fiscal year or the end of June.But in while this has been going through the State of Oregon passed a law, which requires every city in the state over a certain size to allow [00:05:00] duplexes on every lot and a single-family zone. And for largest cities, two three or four units or a cottage cluster allowed on any lot, somewhere in areas of the city.And that's a groundbreaking state law. I mean, frankly, Oregon is kind of a leader in state land use planning to have a pretty large role of the state in what can be built in, in comprehensive planning and what can be done in parts of the city. But this really, in some ways makes you think again, what single family zoning really means.It really says that if you're going to have large neighborhoods where historically you could just go to one house on a lot. That's just not going to be true anymore. You can still regulate the scale of the structures to make sure things are compatible, of the right sort of size and height and setbacks.Those all can be regulated locally. But you're not going to be able to let single family zoning become an exclusive way of keeping smaller households or lower income households out of a neighborhood. And I think that's a great leadership role the state's done. And because of that, actually residential infill project, called RIP, a terrible name for it, in Portland now [00:06:00] has a "RIP 2". Because it's the RIP that thing going through the political process thus far only adjusted the zoning in the closest neighbors of the city that are zoned for relatively high density, residential. You have other parts of the city that was zoned for one house for 10,000 square foot, lot or one house for 20,000 square foot, lot, which under new state law, we're going to have to be updated also to allow additional housing choices.And that process is just getting queued up starting this summer. Kol: [00:06:24] All right. So, in summary, for those who want the summary version, Portland is going to be allowing for up to four units on every residential lot. Meanwhile, Oregon at large is also going to be doing the same, at least in all large cities and Metro areas cities.So that's awesome. That's great. I love it. But the big question for me is Eli. Like this is incredibly progressive. It's never happened anywhere as far as I know in United States and or maybe it has kind of historically [00:07:00] happened in cities, but in recent years, recent decades, it has not. But the question to me is, is there actually a market for this type of housing, so sure. We're going to allow it. That's great. But is anybody going to build these things? Who's going to buy this stuff? What needs to happen legally or with financial products for there to actually be a market for middle housing? Eli: [00:07:24] Well, it's a good question. I think that it will get used. I don't think it's going to be a quick change in what gets built in neighborhoods.We can go back to Portland and other cities before there was zoning. All kinds of residential areas of cities were up for grabs. You could build an apartment building, you'd go up single family house, a fourplex, any of those were options. And mostly people built single family homes. And I expect that even under these rules, mostly people build single family homes, but back in the day before zoning people also built duplexes, triplexes, fourplexes, courtyard plexes, and they mix them in and I think you'll see the same thing today. So, it means that in our [00:08:00] neighborhoods what are the housing types we're going to see? I'm guessing that you'll see people doing cute little cottage clusters.People like, especially on the West coast, they like single family detached structures. They don't like sharing walls, at least not yet. I grew up in Washington, DC, so I'm used to it in so many other expatriates, but historic Oregonians, like their own four walls. So, you'll see that you'll see townhomes get built.If you've got one close in lot in Portland, you'll probably see, instead of being one house, maybe you'll see three or four narrow townhomes sold, likely as condominiums. And that'll require a little bit of a climbing of a learning curve for the home builders. But they're already doing it, frankly.And I think that that will, that will continue. And I think the affordable housing non-profits many of them own scattered sites, single family homes, all over the city. And they've been looking to do something a little bit more with their property, and this will give them an extra bonus density to be able to build smaller, affordable homes in some close, in really fancy neighborhoods.Kol: [00:08:54] Although I don't think you mentioned this as what you thought a realistic or a common typology would [00:09:00] be, but let's talk about triplexes and fourplexes. Eli: [00:09:02] I think the way that Portland's rolling out the residential infill project, it really does a great job for corner triplexes or fourplexes, especially because you have lots of street frontage. You can have a 50 by a 100-foot lot. You can have four townhomes all facing a hundred-foot side of it with narrow backyards. It's a great housing type. And we already see some corner duplexes both this way, but under current rules, but this will expand the options. And I think it's, I think it's incredible. that Portland has come this long without having much townhouse development. It's not just good for smaller homes, but attached to homes of energy savings. And frankly, if you're trying to buy a house in Portland you're stuck. You want to buy a new house let's say, you're already priced out of anywhere within biking, distance of downtown by and large.So, people are going further and further afield. This will allow some of those folks to be able to land closer into the neighborhoods that they really want to be in. And they're sharing a lot with a couple other people, but people will definitely make that compromise. So, I think that there is a market for some attached townhomes for sale in Portland. And also, people will take their existing [00:10:00] houses, maybe then, you know, an 80-year-old house. And they will not only do a detached ADU in the back, but they'll do a basement in ADU as well. And they'll get a little, a supplemental rental income and provide some rental options in the close in neighborhoods too.Kol: [00:10:14] I think actually one of the sleeper elements of the code that I do see happening in a big way is going to be the provision that it will allow for two ADUs within a single detached accessory structure. I think from a homeowner's point of view that's going to be a really kind of profitable good housing typology to add that doesn't require that they tear down the primary house. And it'll probably add, you know, 50% to 75%, more than a single detached accessory dwelling cost, but you'd be able to effectively double the rent. Eli: [00:10:47] Yeah, no, I think that having a shared structured wall decreases the skin to volume of a house which decreases the operating costs.And I think that rentals--- If you're trying to rent out a triplex absentee, [00:11:00] it's kind of hard to manage because you have to deal with all the shared areas and yards, but for owner-occupied rentals, we rent out two units. It works really nicely because the person that lives on site and take care of the grounds without hiring a company to do it, it works pretty well.Kol: [00:11:14] So you alluded to one way in which this type of housing could be purchased, which is condoized units. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that more. So, condoization is something that you have experience with for ADUs in the past. And I want you to kind of, if you could articulate what some of the drawbacks of condoization are and what can be done about it in terms of legislation.Eli: [00:11:40] Yeah. Well, maybe I should describe for a second how condos work for this. Condoization is really common in like a 40 unit building where you have, instead of having one person own the whole building and rent out the units, you divided it up into little volumes of air. So each person owns their own volume of air and they can get separate financing [00:12:00] for that volume of air through a mortgage secured by that condo unit.That same model works in the single-family setting where you have a single-family house, and then maybe you build a detached ADU and maybe on the lot next to it. You have another house with a detached ADU and you can submit it to the condominium regime-- that's a jargon way of saying, but basically you divided it up.So, the person who wants the house, owns that volume for the house. So, someone owns that ADU owns that volume. Someone owns the other ADU that volume and the other house, and then the common areas that the ground in between them was all on collectively or is divided into private yard areas. So that's what condominium means.It makes no difference. The actual built structure is identical, whether it's owned as a house with an ADP behind it rented out, or it's set up as condominium. But the condominium provides the flexibility to finance it differently. It means that if you have a house and an ADU and a two-unit condo, the person who was the ADU can get their own independent financing.There is mortgage not intertwined at all with the mortgage of the person who has the house. And that means that the [00:13:00] ADU behind it could be sold for a lot less money than any other house in the neighborhood. Cause it's probably a lot smaller than the other homes. I did one project where I had house and ADU. The ADU sold for a $120,000 and the house sold for about $360,000. This is 10 years ago. Now they resell for twice that, but in a neighborhood with $600,000 homes that ADU in the back is a third, the cost of a single-family home in that neighborhood. So, it provides a homeownership way of creating relative affordability and but it also gets some people antsy because what happens is someone buys a lot, scrapes the house off of it and builds four townhomes or three townhomes and sells them all as condos? People are going to be concerned about the house that got taken out to make that happen. And maybe condominium ownership increases the value too much. My sense is that there are some places where that could be a concern. And I think that Vancouver, BC is a, is a city where they've already clamped down on condominium conversions because of that in the Bay area that's happened already. You can't just do a condominium association by, right. [00:14:00] There's a lottery process to make sure there's some rental housing preserved in the city. Most places aren't like that. So, I'm, I'm kind of a supportive of cities allowing. Condominium ownership in ADUs is not very common. I did it the first time in Portland, 10 years ago.It's happened a few times since then. And actually, recently I saw 23 of them were being sold right now. And we're in the past six months. I know in Austin; Texas will be a market for that. Or a developer's been building houses and ADUs and selling them separately is still a pretty tiny piece of the market.And I think it provides some flexibility to provide some first-time home buyer opportunities. I know that Habitat affiliates have looked at this for example, as one way to get more homes up than they otherwise would, but there's challenges. And this is where the home builders they're really squeamish about condominiums because when you do a condominium, you take on a 10-year liability period.Whereas this is true in Oregon at least, it's not true everywhere this way. We could get sued by the homeowner association for construction defect. And if you build the exactly the same product, but sell it as a single-family home with the ADU rented in the back, then you've…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    The ADU Hour Teaser Apr 06, 2021
    Show notes

    Kol: Hello! I'm Kol Peterson based out of Portland, Oregon. I'm author of backdoor revolution and host of the ADU hour, a podcast where we probe deep into ADUs and other small alternative infill housing, expansive and deep thinking about small infill housing is our jam.

    Kelcy: I'm Kelsey King and a credited ADU specialist in realtor, interested in creative solutions to home ownership. I specialize in supporting homeowners to purchase properties with ADUs or ADU potential for a variety of different lifestyles, including multi-generational living co purchasing as a strategy to enter the market for the first time and for rental income.

    Kol interviews experts in the ADU space. And then we take some questions from our live audience. Guests include prolific ADU builders, policymakers, architects, lenders, researchers, academics, appraisers, property managers, and more. [00:01:00]

    Kol: We get into the weeds on all of these topics and explore the edge of what is coming next with ADU trends, including middle housing policy and mobile dwellings. We cover topics from research that informs large-scale policies, valuation of ADU permitting and development costs to more obscure topics like ADU site planning software..

    Kelcy: This podcast series consists of episodes that are 30 to 50 minutes long and will be released weekly. We hope that you'll join us for this limited series and that you'll be able to put some of the things we covered to practice in your own community.


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