Tales From The Rabbit Hole

**Episode 58: Peter Bergen – Kirkpatrick, UFOs, and the Pentagon** Jan 26, 2024
Peter Bergen is CNN’s national security analyst, a vice president at New America, a professor of practice at Arizona State University, and the host of the Audible podcast “In the Room with Peter Bergen.”

He recently interviewed Sean Kirkpatrick, the former head of the Pentagon UFO investigation office, AARO.

We chat about UFOs, National Security, Self-licking ice cream cones, and aliens.

**Episode 57: Alex Dietrich, Clouds, Critical Thinking, and UFOs** Aug 25, 2023
Alex Dietrich served a 20-year career as a Naval officer and fighter pilot with two combat deployments. She was also deployed to Afghanistan as an Infrastructure reconstruction engineer.

She then transitioned to academia, serving as a Naval Science Instructor and then a Military professor, teaching, among other things, Critical Thinking, Leadership, and Ethics.

Alex is best known to the public as one of the pilots who witnessed the famous Tic-Tac UFO when flying off the USS Nimitz in 2004. She’s appeared on 60-Minutes, CNN, and other shows to discuss her experience and its implication for flight safety and national security.

**Episode 56: Robert Bartholomew – Havana Syndrome and Mass Psychogenic Illness** Oct 22, 2021
Robert Bartholomew has a PhD in Medical Sociology, and is an Honorary Senior Lecturer in the Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of Auckland in New Zealand. He’s an expert in Mass Psychogenic Illness and the co-author with Rober Baloh of the book “Havana Syndrome: Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story Behind the Embassy Mystery and Hysteria”

Havana syndrome is a loose set of fairly generic symptoms that are being blamed on some kind of attack. It started with personnel at the US embassy in Havana, but has since spread around the world. Dr Bartholomew thinks it’s an example of Mass Psychogenic Illness – people are being asked to look for odd health events and strange sounds, and so of course they find them. But there really no good evidence of any kind of attack. Bartholomew thinks the intelligence community is largely aware of this, but an unbiased examination is being avoided for political reason.

Dr Bartholomew’s website – https://rebartholomew.com/

**Episode 55 – Professor Avi Loeb: The Galileo Project** Aug 10, 2021

What is a University professor doing investigating UFOs? Professor Avi Loeb of Harvard University heads the Galileo Project, which seeks (in part) to identify the nature of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena by establishing a network of telescopes and instruments with the goal of obtaining the first unambiguous clear photos of UFOs.

We talk about the demarcation between science and pseudoscience, the rationale for the project, the challenges it will face, and how it all fits into Professor Loeb’s personal philosophy.

The Galileo Project: https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/galileo

Transcript https://otter.ai/u/abtJtNRU8RbBdUeUu50j9pb7m7Q

**Episode 54 – Mia Bloom and Sophia Moskalenko: Pastels and Pedophiles** Aug 05, 2021
Mia Bloom is Professor of Communication at Georgia State University with a PhD in political science from Columbia University. Sophia Moskalenko is a research fellow at Georgia State University and a researcher at the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism. Together they wrote the book *Pastels and Pedophiles – Inside the Mind of QAnon.*

We discuss how the book came about, the historic roots of the QAnon conspiracy theory, how QAnon has changed with the “Save the Children” narrative to attract more women, and what tangible steps can be taken to help individuals and to help improve the overall situation.

**Episode 53 – Jason Colavito – UFOs and the Invisible College, How Did We Get Here?** Jun 24, 2021
Jason Colavito is an author and journalist with a focus on “alternative archeology” and, more recently, the UFO cultural phenomenon. In May 2021, he wrote the article: “How Washington Got Hooked on Flying Saucers” in the New Republic, describing how “a collection of well-funded UFO obsessives are using their Capitol Hill connections to launder some outré, and potentially dangerous, ideas.”

Jason’s historical research into the underpinnings of the current UFO/UAP flap is a vital component in understanding what is going on, and how we find ourselves in this situation. Going back to the 1960s and 70s, he traces a path from Jacque Vallée’s extradimensional hypothesis and Hal Puthoff’s paranormal research, through Robert Bigelow’s wide-ranging involvement via Harry Reid, to the current efforts of Luis Elizondo and Chris Mellon.

How Washington Got Hooked on Flying Saucers – https://newrepublic.com/article/162457/government-embrace-ufos-bad-science

**Episode 52 – Luis Elizondo – UFOs, UAPs, AATIP, and TTSA** Mar 11, 2021

Luis Elizondo is a former senior intelligence official, a disclosure advocate, a national security expert, and the former director of the Pentagon’s UFO/UAP Program (AATIP). We talk about his work in those capacities and also discuss the history and analysis of the three US Navy “UAP” videos.

*Interview conducted on March 11, 2021*

**Episode 51 – Michael: Post Inauguration QAnon Catchup** Mar 10, 2021

Michael is a “follower” of Q, in what is commonly known as the QAnon conspiracy theory. I first talked to him one year ago, February 2020. We met on Twitter discussing UFOs, but had a long discussion about QAnon. Michael thought for sure that Trump would win the election, and was quite hopeful about the prospects of a massive wave of arrests of the supposed child-abducting elites.

Since he made some predictions, we agreed to meet again, which we did on Feb 22, 2021. We discussed what did an did not happen, and Micahel good-naturedly tried to convince me (at some length) that there was actually something to Q. We also very briefly discuss UFOs.

Youtube version here

**Episode 50 – Alex: Raised by Conspiracy Theorists** Mar 09, 2021
Alex was raised by conspiracy theorists. This makes him different from most people who end up down the rabbit hole in that assuming nefarious plots were going on was never a surprise to him. Indeed, it was the default.

We talk about growing up in a conspiracy theory family, how his perceptions shifted when he went out into the real world, and how he ended up going even deeper down the rabbit hole before he finally found his way out.

Alex also read my book, Escaping the Rabbit Hole, and his reaction to my 9/11 debunking was rather surprising.

**Episode 49 – Georgina: A QAnon Friend in the UK** Mar 07, 2021

QAnon is a very American conspiracy theory, focussing upon a supposed plan by a mysterious entity named ‘Q’ who was working with Donald Trump to rid the US of a corrupt elite. But despite this American focus, it has adherents around the world. One of those adherents is a friend of this episode’s guest, Georgina.

Georgina and her friend were both fans of documentaries about cults, but despite what you right think of as inoculation against mind control, Georgina’s friend still fell deep down the QAnon rabbit hole.

This episode was recorded on Jan 5th, the day before the storming of the Capitol.

Episode 48 – Accidentally Dating a Conspiracy Theorist Jan 29, 2021

My guest this week thought all was well when she started dating a handsome intelligent man. But then a few things he said, particularly about “the Jews” started to seem like something more than just...

Episode 47: Sarah – Conspiracy Casualty Dec 08, 2020

Sarah’s ex-partner seemed like a normal person, but a few years ago he discovered conspiracy theory videos. Starting with claims that the Moon Landing was fake he quickly progressed to Flat Earth and eventually ended...

Episode 46: Ryan – Growing Out Of 9/11 Aug 29, 2020

Ryan became a conspiracy theorist at age 15. He spent five years solidly down the 9/11 conspiracy rabbit hole, believing that the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed with pre-planted explosives. As he grew older...

Episode 45: Brandon Fugal: The Owner of Skinwalker Ranch May 30, 2020

Brandon Fugal is a prominent business leader based in Utah and is the current owner of the mysterious Skinwalker Ranch, which is the focus of a wide variety of reported strange phenomena, from supernatural visitors...

Episode 44: Steven Hassan – Cults and Conspiracies May 15, 2020

Steven Hassan is an expert on cults. A former high ranking member of the Unification Church, aka the “Moonies”, he’s been helping people escape the rabbit hole since his own escape in 1976. Now he’s...

Episode 43 – Tim McMillan: The Challenges of UFO Investigations May 08, 2020

Investigating UFOs presents a number of challenges, many of which are not immediately obvious, but swiftly rear up to impede progress. There are straightforward issues, like military secrecy and people being afraid to talk because...

Episode 42 – Flat Earth and Coronavirus Apr 19, 2020

Does a Flat Earther react to world events differently to other people? When you think the world is flat, then you think that the mainstream view of the world is very wrong. Does this carry...

Episode 41 – Johnny Orbital: Former Flat Earther, Now a Science Advocate Mar 09, 2020

Johnny Orbital is a rare breed – a former genuine believer in the Flat Earth theory who is willing to talk about his experience. When I was writing my book Tales From the Rabbit Hole,...

Episode 40 – Jeremy Rys: Alien Science and 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Feb 22, 2020

Jeremy Rys has gone by “Alien Scientist” for over ten years. His primary interest is in independently researching exotic technology like anti-gravity and warp drives. Some people speculate that such technology exists and comes from...

Episode 39 – DJ Thermal Detonator: 9/11 History and Change Feb 13, 2020

DJ Thermal Detonator was heavily involved in the Los Angeles 9/11 Truth scene in the late 2000s. At that time, local activism centered around the We Are Change group. DJ attended meetings, helped out with...

Episode 38 – Michael: Part 2: QAnon and Predictions Feb 09, 2020

In this second part of my chat with UFO experiencer Michael, we talk about his interest in the QAnon theory. He firmly believes we are on the verge of a storm of arrests of people...

Episode 37 – Michael: Part 1: UFOs and Alien Encounters Feb 09, 2020

Michael posts on Twitter as “UFO Today”. For most of his life, he’s had experiences that seem to him to be some kind of alien visitors. We talk about these, starting with his first experience...

Episode 36 – Gary Voorhis: Tic-Tac UFO Witness Jan 21, 2020

Gary Voorhis was a computer technician on the USS Princeton during the 2004 "Tic-Tac" UFO incident (commonly referred to as the "Nimitz Incident" after the aircraft carrier heading the strike group.) He thinks what he saw was some kind of advanced technology, possibly alien technology.

Episode 35 – Mike Santangelo: 9/11 Truth vs. B.S. Jan 18, 2020

Mike is a member of the 9/11 Truth community. He thinks there might have been explosives used on 9/11 to cause the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings. He does NOT think that a cruise missile hit the Pentagon, and considers that, like some other common 9/11 beliefs, to be "B.S."

Episode 34 – Stian Arnesen: Debunking, Censorship, 9/11, and UFOs Jan 11, 2020

Stian is someone who has been quite deeply involved in the 9/11 Truth community and the UFO community. He also just read my book: Escaping the Rabbit Hole, and has a few questions for me...

Episode 33 – Anthony Magnabosco: Street Epistemology and Conspiracy Theories Jan 04, 2020

Anthony Magnabosco is the most well-known practitioner of the craft of “Street Epistemology”, which he defines as: “a dialog where you use questions to explore somebody’s claim to see how they concluded that it’s true.”...

Episode 32 – The Skeptic of the North: Former Conspiracist, Current Skeptic Dec 29, 2019

Phil is a former conspiracy theorist in Northern Ireland who got into conspiracy theories aged 18, around 14 years ago. Going to university exposed him to a variety of people and to new ways of...

Episode 31: Professor Elizabeth Loftus – Memory and Conspiracy Dec 18, 2019

Elizabeth Loftus is an expert on memory. We discuss how that sometimes relates to the world of conspiracy theories.

Episode 30: Tom – 9/11 Why We Believe and Change Dec 14, 2019

Tom has dabbled in a few conspiracy theories over the years, and still thinks there are some significant questions that have never been answered about why the World Trade Center buildings fell down the way...

Episode 29: Geoff – Everything is a Hoax, The Earth Might Be Flat Nov 08, 2019

Geoff says that six years ago he was “as normal as everyone else,” but when he was caught up in the manhunt for the Boston Marathon bomber (Dzhokhar Tsarnaev) he took an interest in the...

Episode 28 – Brian Dunning: Skeptoid, Conspiracies Declassified, and Science Friction Nov 02, 2019

Brian Dunning is a prolific skeptical podcaster with his award-winning show "Skeptoid" coming up on its 700th episode.

Episode 27 – Michael Shermer: Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories — The Great Courses Oct 10, 2019

Dr Michael Shermer is founder of The Skeptics Society, and editor-in-chief of its magazine Skeptic. He's written several books on science and skepticism and his latest work is an audio-only 12-part course on Conspiracies.

Episode 26: UFO Jesus – Disclosure, the Nimitz Tic-Tac, and UFO Evidence Oct 03, 2019

UFO Jesus is a popular advocate of UFO “disclosure”, the belief that the US Government is close to revealing that it knows that some UFOs actually are the result of alien visitors. We talk about...

Episode 25 – Jason Bermas: Producer of Loose Change, Shade, Invisible Empire Sep 28, 2019

Jason Bermas is a producer, writer, and YouTuber, best known for conspiracy documentaries such as Loose Change, Fabled Enemies, Shade, and Invisible Empire. Loose Change was a seminal documentary for the 9/11 “Truth” movement, and...

Episode 24: Nick Pope – Area 51, UFOs and UFOlogy Sep 26, 2019

Nick Pope is a journalist and media commentator who writes and talks a lot about the UFO phenomenon. He is perhaps best known for a role he undertook for the British Government from 1991 to...

Episode 23 – Ian/TheoryQED: UFOs, Government Cover-ups, and Alien Visitors. Sep 23, 2019

Ian goes by the name TheoryQED on Metabunk and his YouTube Channel, where he posts about UFOs. Unlike me, and definitely unlike my last guest (Seth Shostak), Ian thinks there's something highly significant to the UFO phenomenon

Episode 22 – Seth Shostak: SETI Senior Astronomer on the Search for ETs, UFO “Disclosure”, and Storming Area 51. Sep 14, 2019

Seth Shostak is the Senior Astronomer for the SETI Institute and former Director of Center for SETI Research. A popular science communicator, Seth has hosted SETI’s weekly radio show (and now podcast) Big Picture Science...

Episode 21: Donald Friedman – Engineer at the World Trade Center After 9/11 Sep 10, 2019

Donald Friedman, P.E., F.ASCE, is a professional engineer with more than 25 years of experience in the investigation, analysis, and restoration of landmark buildings. He has taught engineering at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, the University of...

Episode 20 – JM Talboo: Debunker of 9/11 Debunkers Sep 08, 2019

JM Talboo runs the web site http://911debunkers.blogspot.com subtitled "Debunking the Debunkers of the 9/11 Truth Movement". His focus is on debunking people like me.

Episode 19 – Mike Rothschild: Decline of QAnon, Death of Epstein, and other Conspiracies. Sep 01, 2019

Mike Rothschild is a writer who is an expert on a variety of conspiracy theories, in particular QAnon. We discuss the drawn-out decline of the QAnon theory, prosperity scams, and the theories around the death...

Episode 18 – Paradigm Shift – A Student With Questions about 9/11 and the Possibility of Explosives Aug 25, 2019

Paradigm Shift had made many posts about 9/11, and the need, as he sees it, for a new investigation to look into the possibility of explosives being used to bring down the twin towers.

Episode 17: Willie – Rabbit Hole Escapee (ETRH – Preface) Aug 10, 2019

Willie was one of the first people that I interviewed for my book Escaping The Rabbit Hole. He’s a former believer in theories from 9/11 being an “inside job”, to chemtrails. His story forms the...

Episode 16: Adam Taylor – Retired 9/11 Truth Activist Aug 04, 2019

Adam Taylor was very active in the 9/11 truth movement for ten years from 2007 to 2017. He's still very much in favor of a new investigation and thinks there are many unanswered questions about the events of 9/11.

Episode 15: Brad – Mathematics vs. Conspiracy Theories Jul 28, 2019

Brad is an electrical engineer and an expert in mathematics. He also likes to consider that an idea might be true before rejecting it, no matter how extreme. This led him very briefly down the rabbit hole of checking to see if the earth was actually round like a ball, or might it possibly be flat.

Episode 14: Rory – Flat Earth Debunking and Spiritual Journeys Jul 21, 2019

Rory has an extensive series of videos on YouTube debunking Flat Earth, focusing on simple ways of demonstrating that there’s a curve. But he’s also got a very interesting life story as a traveler, both...

Episode 13 – Professor David Keith – Geoengineering Research and the Chemtrails Conspiracy Theory Jul 14, 2019

Professor David Keith is a well-known expert in the largely theoretical field of geoengineering (deliberately modifying the Earth's climate) who has become an often demonized target for conspiracy theorists who think that the climate is actually being secretly modified using "chemtrails."

Episode 12: Paul – Escape from Planet X Jul 06, 2019

Paul is a former promoter of the Planet X conspiracy theory. Planet X (or Nibiru) is a supposed rogue planet that some people claim they can observe near the sun. Supposedly the existence of this planet is being covered up by the government because it's about to cause the end of the world.

Episode 11: Jim Lee – Chemtrails, Geoengineering, Conspiracies, and Semantics Jun 30, 2019

Jim Lee used to be a fairly hardcore conspiracy theorist, deep into things like Chemtrails and doomsday comets. Now he’s less deep down the rabbit hole, but has managed to create one of his own....

Episode 10: Jen Senko – Director of “The Brainwashing of my Dad” Jun 24, 2019

Jen Senko is the director of the documentary film The Brainwashing of my Dad, released in 2016. The film tells the story of how her father had a drastic change in personality after slowly getting sucked into a rabbit hole of conservative talk radio

Episode 9: Joe – Former Chemtrail Conspiracist, Current New World Order Conspiracist Jun 17, 2019

Joe is someone I’ve known online for nearly ten years, back when he was a believer in the chemtrails conspiracy theory. Over a few years, I managed to talk him out of that one. He’s...

Episode 8: Sasha: Chatting with a Flat Earther Jun 11, 2019

I met Sasha at the Flat Earth conference a couple of weeks ago. During the debate she asked an interesting question about the moment that made us commit to the Earth being flat (or, in my case, a globe).

Episode 7: Flat Earth Exit the Matrix Expo Jun 01, 2019

In this episode, I report back from my trip to the "Exit the Matrix" Flat Earth Expo in Las Vegas, where I gave a presentation, had a debate, and talked to a lot of Flat Earth believers.

Episode 6: Tim Osman, Debunker and Conspiracist May 29, 2019

I first became aware of “Tim Osman” from his work debunking the Flat Earth theory. He’s done some amazing work there with highly visual demonstrations of the curve of the Earth using drone footage. But...

Episode 5: Dan, Former Apocalyptic Prepper May 20, 2019

Dan used to be convinced that some kind of drastic collapse of society was just around the corner. But then he stopped.

Episode 4: Stian Arnesen, the 9/11 Alaska Report and the Science of 9/11 May 15, 2019

In this second part of my extended conversation with Stian Arnesen (first part here) we delve deeper into 9/11. Firstly we discuss the Alaska report on World Trade Center Building 7. This is a report...

Episode 3: Stian Arnesen, 9/11, Crop Circles, and Debunkers May 13, 2019

Stian Arensen has been involved in the 9/11 Truth community for a number of years, and in the last year or so has been questioning some of the underpinnings of that community. Stian has also...

Episode 2: Mike Rothschild, discussing QAnon May 03, 2019

Mike Rothschild is a journalist, researcher, debunker of conspiracy theories and fringe beliefs, and an expert on the QAnon theory.

Episode 1: Introduction & The Ex Conspiracy Theorist Apr 20, 2019

In this first episode of Tales from the Rabbit Hole, I give a brief introduction and then talk to my first guest, Jon, an ex-conspiracy theorist