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Surface Level — Society & Culture
Surface Level

Creating a community where Black & Queer folx are fearless in thought & curious at heart. #StayCurious

Copyright: © Surface Level

Latest Episodes:

EP 503 | P-Valley Jun 29, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how does media visibility affect how we see ourselves?

This week’s episode is an absolute treat. We dissect the value of visibility within media and how it affects the way we view ourselves in real life. This week we are all living in Nicco’s world and the host of Surface Level are along for the ride.

We welcome actor, Nicco Annan to our Surface Level Family. Nicco plays the beloved non-binary character, Uncle Clifford, on the hit show P-Valley. We play a game themed on some of the fun and outlandish advice that the character would give. We then dive into the journey that has lead Nicco to a place of self love and the desire to show love, not just in his art, but in life. Thematically this episode is about humanity and the desire to show all aspects of it with the hope that we can all move to a more authentic place in our own lives day by day.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 502 | Masc 4 Masc Jun 22, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is a preference for masculinity inherently femmephobic?

We kick off with a game imagining a world if we were girls, then launch into a discussion that centers around various facets of femininity as it relates to Queer cis men. We discuss our relationship with femininity, our opinions on “femme tops”, and what we are doing to make the world more accepting towards femininity in men.

This is a fun take on a serious conversation that we are happy to bring you this week. We have spent years unlearning things we have been taught about our femininity while trying to find truth in our appreciation of masculinity. We have discovered we are three butch queens hoping to give you both.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 501 | The Black Gay Agenda Jun 15, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what can the current political system do to better protect Black Queer people?

We are excited to welcome you back with a brief update on our time off between seasons. We then launch into a fun gay reimagining of the government for and by Black people. Our discussion is then centered around how the current political landscape is causing physical, mental, and emotional harm towards Black Queer people.

This week we welcome Executive Director and Co-Founder of Campaign Zero, DeRay McKesson to our Surface Level Family. DeRay adds a point of view from an individual who has been doing the work as a former teacher and dedicated activist. We weave through topics related to gun violence, “Don’t Say Gay” bills, and trans identity. He poignantly said during the episode that, “the culture wars are here”, and we discuss what we’re going to do about it.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 415 | Beyond The Surface Level 4 Feb 23, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – are you ready to go beyond the surface level with us?

The finale to our fourth season features the theme of community. We kick off by welcoming LaQuann Dawson, Creative Director of MOBI, to our Surface Level family. We discuss his experience with the organization and the parallel missions of creative space and a platform for Black Queer folx.

We then move into a game themed on the standout moments from this season. We wrap up with one of our most fun segments yet, chatting through an array of topics all sourced from you, our beloved Surface Level Insiders.

This season has seen our platform grow in ways we would never have imagined and we look forward to sharing this fun and candid exchange with you. So, thank you for the support and until next time…stay curious.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 414 | Shade Came From Reading Feb 16, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is the art of shade helpful or harmful in our communities?

We play a game deciding which common statements are shade vs “no shade”, discuss the history of “the dozens” and shade in Black communities, litigate if throwing shade for sport is based in insecurities, and discuss ways in which positive defense mechanisms we’ve developed help combat a world that views us as less than.

Black communities often live by the phrase “laugh at our pain”. This statement is further cemented in the Black Queer experience. Our take is that it’s all about balance. Are we people that need to laugh to stop from crying or individuals that need to heal from generational trauma? Or, are both things true at the same time?

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 413 | Reading Rainbow Feb 09, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what do Black Queer stories look like when we write them ourselves?

We play a literature-themed game, discuss our favorite Black Queer reads, discuss stories that we would write ourselves, then delve into a conversation around how Black Queer culture has informed the writing of our guest.

This week we welcome New York Times bestselling author Michael Arceneaux to our Surface Level Family. Michael’s fun writing style takes a unique look at millennial problems, from dating to student loan debt. He brings a point of view that is equal parts funny, honest, and real. This is not an author who takes himself too seriously and that is why his books are resonating with a generation truly doing the best we can with what we’ve got.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 412 | School Gayze Feb 02, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how have HBCUs evolved to fit the needs of Queer students?

We play a game that reminds us of our time at Howard, discuss the history and evolution of Queer communities at HBCUs with two educators, then end with speaking to current students and recent graduates about the hope they wish to see for future generations and the work that is still to come.

This week we welcome educators Dr. Steven Mobley (Howard) & Dr. Kirstin Byrd (Hampton & Spelman), Transgender HBCU Queen Malay Simmons (Johnson C. Smith), former Mr. HBCU Jauan Durbin (Morehouse) & former Human Rights Campaign HBCU Program intern Janelle Edge (F.A.M.U.) to our Surface Level family. We are excited to offer perspectives on the HBCU experience that show how far we have come but ultimately where we can continue to grow. We hope you enjoy their stories and that any student attending an HBCU will feel seen and understand that their experience is as big a part of the history of our institutions as anyone else’s.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 411 | Case Of The Ex Jan 26, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how have you worked to heal from failed romantic relationships?

We play a game titled, “Are You That Somebody”, detailing our own red flags when romantically involved. We then enter a convo with many highs and lows around how we have dealt with the ending of relationships. We further discuss the lingering feelings and how we worked through those, then laugh a lot about on how social media comes into play and awkward run ins with former partners.

A relationship ending is not something we believe should be viewed as a failure. We have each learned valuable lessons that make us not just better partners in the future but better humans. Romance is hard and we don’t dare to say we are experts but we hope to stay curious enough to learn from the past.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 410 | Stop Blasian Hate Jan 19, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how can we strengthen the alliance between Black and Asian communities?

We play a game of trivia highlighting Blasian artists, then launch into a discussion centered on the Asian American experience, and highlight ways in which we can create empathy between our communities.

This week we welcome content creator and storyteller Johnathan Gibbs, artist and community organizer Will Lex Ham, and founder and creative director Steven Wakabayashi to our Surface Level Family. They offer their perspectives to an amazing conversation starting with dissecting the stereotype of the model minority and how it affects the relationship between Asian Americans and other minorities. We then discuss the lack of representation of Asian Americans in pop culture. We end by highlighting some of the struggles and triumphs of the Black Lives Matter and Stop Asian Hate movements. This conversation was special in how we’re able to highlight an experience in which our identities do not intersect. We look forward to sharing their stories and hope we do our part in pushing this conversation forward.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 409 | Gayfishing Jan 12, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – why is same gender affection viewed differently between men and women?

We play a game of would you rather in relation to some Queer notable figures, discuss the societal acceptance of affection between women compared to men, and sound off on the divisive trend of heterosexual men playing into Queerness for engagement on social media.

Over time the line between gender identity and sexuality will become increasingly blurred. That journey, like our show, requires an examination of what is truly authentic versus participating in trends because of societal pressure. We hope this episode sparks conversation across all communities and continues to place focus on the humanity of all people.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 408 | Plant Kween Jan 05, 2022

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – have you explored self-care through plant care?

We play a game centered around what changes we will and will not be making in the new year, we the delve into a discussion around better ways we can care for ourselves this year, and the success or lack thereof we’ve had at being “plant dads”.

This week we welcome gardener, educator, LGBTQ+ activist Christopher Griffin affectionately known as @Plantkween to our Surface Level Family. They give us some helpful information around using plants to be more mindful. We also discuss some of the history of Black Americans and gardening. Finally, they talk about what it has meant to use there platform to tell stories of Black, femme, non-binary folx. This episode is an amazing way to jumpstart 2022 in a meaningful way, we hope you enjoy.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 407 | Gay Dating For Dummies Dec 29, 2021

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – what bad dating habits do you hope to leave in 2021?

We play a game centered on common Jack’d scenarios, tell stories about our first time kissing another man, how our selectivity regarding partners has evolved over time, and bad dating habits we would like to leave in 2021.

This week we welcome gay dating coach and couple’s counselor Lamont White to our Surface Level Family. We have a blast discussing the value of dating with intention and clearly communicating our desires for a partner. He also gives advice on how to approach the fine line of having clear expectations for a partner without putting an unfair burden on them. We had a great time recording this episode and are happy to share this with you as we end the year.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 406 | The Upper Echelon Dec 21, 2021

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – how do socio-economic factors effect the relationships we have with other Black Queer folx?

We play a game of high/low discussing the “luxuries” we can’t live without, give our take on the W.E.B. Dubois vs Booker T. Washington debate, rant about unwanted expectations individuals have when you begin to make more money, and litigate how economic status impacts our dating habits.

Money and status are two things that can cloud the judgment of the best of us. Being both Black and Queer, our success represents advancement for two underserved communities. Our discussion highlights the balancing act of being in service to those around us while also creating space for individuals to create their own paths to success.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 405 | White Fragility Dec 15, 2021

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – did anyone really learn to be an anti-racist?

We play a ridiculously titled “You Ain’t Black”, discuss our thoughts on last years social “reckoning” one year later, and look internally at confidence we gained in speaking truth about injustice in any situation.

This week we welcome author and political commentator Keith Boykin to our Surface Level Family. He discusses his favorite quote by Audre Lorde, his experience with activism in the 90’s, and gives important commentary around the history of White backlash in politics through the lens of his new book Race Against Time. This episode is equal parts fun and informative and we are happy to share.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 404 | Unpopular Opinion Dec 08, 2021

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious – is freedom of speech a right or responsibility?

We play a game that exposes our own unpopular opinions, discuss how our thoughts of being cancelled have informed what we say on the podcast, talk about the polarizing nature of the court of public opinion, and how we manage relationships with people whose beliefs differ from our own.

With the continuous outrage regarding public statements, this topic feels quite timely. Where is the line between accountability and compassion and how can we remain open to advancement without accepting bigotry?

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 403 | Beautiful Gowns Dec 01, 2021

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious - how can fashion tell Black, Queer stories?

This week Tony & Jordan fail miserably at a game of Black fashion trivia, we discuss our opinions on fashion vs style, our acceptance or lack of towards overtly fem clothing, and the personal and professional benefits of embracing fashion.

This week we welcome Kinglsey Gbadedesin, CEO & Founder of K.ngsley to our Surface Level family. Kinglsey shares his experience launching a brand that grew out of his desire to give back to Black femme folx during last year's social justice movement. In his own words, everything he does is “for the girls” and that commitment has landed his signature tanks everywhere from major publications to television placement on the final season if Insecure. He is using the medium of fashion to tell stories from a place of honesty, representing his motto that he’d like to live from a place where there’s no lie left. The industry isn’t all beautiful gowns and his work is pushing our stories to the forefront.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 402 | The Nigerian Underground Nov 24, 2021

Jordan, Damon & Tony are curious - how do anti gay laws affect your travel?

We poke fun at the joy and pain of being podcasters, discuss our experiences traveling the world as Queer people, and have an in depth conversation with our guest regarding the Queer experience in Nigeria.

This week we welcome OKTimileyin, activist, cast member of HBO Max’ Legend of the Underground and Host of Nigeria’s Queercity Podcast. Timi shares his experience navigating family and broader society while being Queer in Nigeria. His story is personal yet not unique in its many challenges. We are using our platform to amplify the stories of Queer people fighting for liberation globally. This was an enlightening conversation for us, and we hope to continue our work from a place of courage and not fear in the same way Timi has.

We know a lot but we don’t know it all, so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 401 | Friends Without Benefits Nov 17, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious, do the best relationships start from platonic friendships?

We play a game of never have I ever, assess the environments where Queer people meet, discuss the benefits of or lack there of in prioritizing platonic friendship over romantic attraction, and share our thoughts on casual sex between friends.

We are excited to welcome you back with a fun topic on which we hardly agree. This one is a hot button within a community in which the dating and friendship pool is small and greatly overlaps. We know a lot but we don’t know it all so join the conversation on social and let us know your thoughts.

EP 315 | Beyond The Surface Level 3 Jul 14, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are Black, Queer, and Curious.

What a ride season 3 of Surface Level has been! We’ve covered everything from sexual health, to hip hop, to gender roles in Queer relationships. We laughed, we debated, and now we are taking a look back. This week we answer questions asked directly from our Surface Level Insiders and discuss current events related to some of the topics. And like always, we find time to play a few games.

This season we took the approach of amplifying as many voices on the Black Queer spectrum as possible. We close by going back to our roots and giving you a peek into who we are, how we think, and the work we’re doing to stand firmly in our own authenticity. We look forward to continuing the ride in the future and to bringing you more of the Black Queer experience we call Surface Level.

#STAYCURIOUS

EP 314 | No Face, No Case Jul 07, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the impact the “DL” narrative has had on both Queer and heterosexual communities.

The idea of DL culture is one born out of a false narrative about Black Queer men during the AIDS crisis. Is there a difference between being “DL” and simply not being out?

We discuss the problematic history of the term DL, if men are responsible for disclosing that they are involved with other men to a female partner, why the idea of DL men is fetishized in some Queer circles, and how those around us can become collateral damage in the messy process of coming out.

We’re going out with a bang this season, with a touchy topic that the host do not all agree on. Queer experiences are layered and discussing how they right or wrongfully intersect with heterosexual people is complicated. In efforts to push ourselves and really interrogate what we have been told is and is not right, we are going there. So join the conversation on social media, this is one that touches the entire community.

EP 313 | 10's Across The Board Jun 30, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the historic role Black & Brown trans women have played in ballroom culture.

For our final Pride Month episode, we are shining a light on the experiences of trans women of color. How has ballroom served as a safe space for Black & Brown trans women?

We decide which outside activities we are excited about and which ones need to be chopped, our impression of the ballroom community, how the success of shows like Pose and Legendary have affected ballroom, how “passing” privilege affects the trans community, the role realness categories play in modern ballroom, and why Black and Brown trans women have served as leaders within this community.

This week we welcome Lola Gucci, Overall Mother of the House of Gucci, to our Surface Level family. We discuss her experience on the ball scene as well as her personal journey as a Black trans woman. This week is both fun and at times emotional, but most importantly personal, as Lola shares her story for the first time publicly. So, join us in learning more about Queer voices from all walks of life.

EP 312 | Gays As Old As Time (Bonus EP) Jun 28, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious how age impacts our perception of the world as Black, Queer men. In addition to this week’s regular episode we are releasing a bonus with messages from the host and our guests to our ten year old selves. We hope you enjoy, and please share with any younger person searching for a bit of guidance.

EP 312 | Gays As Old As Time Jun 23, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious how age impacts our perception of the world as Black, Queer men. This episode features the stories of Black, Queer men ages 25-64. What role does age play in how we view the topics of relationships, Blackness, professionalism, Queer health, and Ageism. This week we test a new format where we asked several men the same 10 questions and shape our conversation around their responses. We cover everything from dating & sex, to how they navigate spaces that are not always welcoming to Black, Queer men, and we close by directly addressing the role age plays in interactions within our own community. Black, Queer stories are in no way monolithic and it was an amazing experience to hear so many varying perspectives on the same topics. One goal we have had in growing Surface Level is to amplify Black, Queer experiences outside of our own and this is our most ambitious project yet. So, join us in welcoming Deshon, Khalil, Steven, Dawon, E. Brown, Derrick & Toby to our Surface Level family, this is Gays As Old As Time.

EP 311 | Affirmative (In)Action Jun 16, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about how last year’s social justice movement affected Black Queer professionals.

The social uprising sparked by the murder of George Floyd coincidentally fell in line with the launch of Surface Level. How did this impact our views towards the roles we play at work?

We play a work from home themed game, discuss the action or lack there of in response to the events of last year, we revisit statements we made regarding assimilating during our season 1 episode titled the ‘Magical Negro is OOO’, and one host is challenged on his view that assimilation to corporate culture is a necessary means to a successful end.

With one year under our belts, our anniversary lands in a similar way to how we started. We visit a conversation that seems straightforward but proves to be quite the hot button, sparking fierce debate. Corporate America is still playing catch up to last year’s lofty promises of change. We hope to do our part in continuing to evaluate our roles in being a part of that evolution.

EP 310 | Masculine Sissy Jun 09, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the value of masculinity among Queer men.

The debate regarding the embrace of masculinity is ongoing within Queer communities. How do we embrace our masculinity while recognizing the value our of femininity?

We chime in on who we think the ultimate masculine sissy is, the uneasiness around the embrace of femininity, how masculinity and femininity play into how we interact with potential partners, heteronormative ideas that we embrace, and if we accept that there are expectations we should live up to as cis men.

This episode is easily the comedic high point of the season. We are embracing a serious topic but per usual not taking ourselves too seriously. So find out what happens when you put three butch queens in a room to evaluate their masculinity. It’s the “verse” perspective this topic deserves.

EP 309 | Blatino Oasis Jun 02, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the intersection of the Black & Latinx Queer experience.

Throughout Pride Month, our goal is to amplify a multitude of Queer voices, starting with a crossover episode with BYLATINMEN The Podcast. What are the common and unique experiences of Black & Brown Queer folx?

We play a game of superlatives between the two shows, chime in on pop culture, discuss the unique experiences of Latinx Queer people, discuss the need for races to support causes other than their own, and sound off on individuals we would really love to shut the fuck up!

We welcome Angel, Kevin & Anthony of BYLATINMEN to our Surface Level family. This episode combines six big personalities into one really fun ride. In the spirit of collaboration we combined fun segments from each of our shows with an equal balance of fun and serious conversation. The experiences of Black and Brown communities are often conflated. We interrogate that idea to give weight to how we can be better allies in experiences that are shared and unique.

EP 308 | Pay For Play May 26, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the fact and fiction regarding sex work.

This episode covers the shame attached to what many consider the oldest profession. Why does American society attach such stigma to the sex work industry?

We discuss the motivation behind entering the field of sex work, new laws focused on the decriminalization of the craft, the value placed on the lives of sex workers, the positive impact of the industry, and the overall role the industry is playing in normalizing sex.

For this episode, we welcome Zola Bruce, Communications Director for The Sex Workers Project of The Urban Justice Center, to our Surface Level Family. Zola offers the dual perspective of both advocate and member of the sex work community. They give an amazing lesson on the joy of the work as well as the political battles fought to protect the safety of participants. We cannot wait for you to hear their unique perspective as it adds major clarity to a topic many people only know through uninformed assumptions.

EP 307 | Kiss With A Fist May 19, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about intimate partner violence within gay relationships.

This episode delves into a topic not often spoken about among men in our community. What unique factors are at play when intimate partner violence includes two gay men?

We start light, playing a game we coined as the lesser of two evils. We then progress into a conversation regarding the stigma attached to violence in male relationships, red flags in relation to violent partners, any experiences we have personally had with violence, where we should or should not place fault in a situation, and offer some advice to individuals leaving or healing from a physically violent situation.

This topic, though highly prevalent, is rarely discussed. We hope to shine light on the fact that no one deserves violence, while also addressing the complex experiences that sometimes cause it. We acknowledge that in these scenarios, no one wins, and that healing should be the focus of everyone involved. So go on a journey with us that was both cathartic and nerve racking as we peer into one of the most personal moments so far on Surface Level.

EP 306 | Skinny Legends Only Pt. 2 May 12, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the individual experiences people have with their bodies. This episode revisits a topic that sparked a ton of feedback from last season, our relationship with our bodies. Are conversations around body image too binary? We discuss our personal insecurities (or lack thereof), debate what we got right and wrong in part one of this discussion, the motivation behind how we treat our bodies, privilege in conversation around body image, and how we’re working through said insecurities. This topic proved to be a lightning rod with our listeners and we’re sure this episode will uphold that legacy. We investigate the line between recognizing individual struggle while acknowledging systems in place that benefit some more than others. So go on a journey with us as this is definitely a topic that requires crowd participation.

EP 305 | Adam & Steve May 05, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about homophobia within the Black Church.

This episode covers the institution that has had a huge impact on the history of African Americans, the Black Church. Why has the Black Church been so slow to openly embrace its Queer members?

We discuss our favorite gospel club anthems, our history going (or not) to church, our views on spirituality vs religion, and delve into our guests journey from homophobic seminary student to a leader in affirming Queer people within his church.

During this episode we welcome Michael A. Walrond Jr., Senior Pastor of First Corinthian Baptist Church, into our Surface Level family. We discuss what he believes it means to truly be inclusive in religion. If nothing else Pastor Mike is a story teller, he walks us through his journey of specific instances in his life that are sure to move our audience. Many Queer people have given upon the church but Pastor Mike definitely offers a counter point to the trauma we’ve experienced. This is a different type of conversation for us this week but come along as Surface Level takes you to church.

EP 304 | Beatz, Boyz & Barz Apr 28, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about homophobia within hip hop. This episode covers the music we love, with a culture that doesn’t love us back. Why is homophobia in hip hop still so prevalent? We try our hand at hip hop trivia, discuss heterosexual male rappers embrace of gender bending fashions, question the embrace of female rappers by Queer men, acknowledge that being Queer can sometimes eclipse an artist’s talent, and we get a preview into the upcoming work of a very special guest. During this episode we welcome Cakes Da Killa, rapper, poet & budding film maker, into our Surface Level family. We discuss the tightrope walk of being seen purely as an artist vs a conduit for Black Queer visibility. Cakes shares the lighthearted back story that lead him to his current career, then we delve into many of his upcoming projects. And if we ever had a guest who took us to task when we veered off course, they’d be Cakes! This week is a fun ride so join us in the studio as we drop some beatz!

EP 303 | Before He Cheats Apr 21, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the cure for infidelity.

This episode covers our experiences being on the giving and receiving end of infidelity. Do we as a society place so much emphasis on monogamy that we are setting ourselves up for failure?

We play a game of infidelity-themed superlatives, discuss past infractions we’ve committed in relationships, what we’re looking forward to in future potential relationships, and society’s love of monogamy while shaming less traditional relationship formats.

This week is sure to be a fun highlight of the season. We’re a focus group of three who’ve all failed at love, trying to make sense of what we’ve learned, and put that into practice. Not sure we’re topical experts here but like Anita Baker says, we’re continuing to “give it the best we’ve got!”

EP 302 | Not Your "Gay" Best Friend Apr 14, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the experiences of Queer people with cishet allies.

This episode breaks down our experiences with cishet individuals in our own lives. How can the most well-intended allies still perpetuate homophobia?

We discuss coming out to cishet friends and family members, the differences in our relationships with straight men vs straight women, the fetishization of Queer men by women, parental aversion to having Queer children, and we share some advice for when you insist on hooking us up with your other gay friend.

In this episode, we have a lot of laughs, although it’s still a topic that we take quite seriously. Allyship is a journey that individuals don’t always get right. Our hope is to offer some advice on how we can be more respectful of each other’s differences and place value on experiences even when we don’t understand them.

EP 301 | ParTy N Play Apr 07, 2021

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the intersection of sex and health in the Black & Queer community.

This episode builds on the success of “Undetectable”, our top performing episode from season two, by further delving into the topic of sexual practices and health. How have advancements in HIV treatment and prevention influenced our communities sex habits?

We kick off with what we’ve been up to during our time away. Then things get real as we discuss our sexual habits in a “post-PrEP” world. We also get into the prevalence of party drugs among Black Queer men, and the role (or lack thereof) that the healthcare system plays in protecting us.

In this episode we welcome DaShawn Usher, Founder of Mobilizing our Brothers Initiative and Programs Officer for Communities of Color at GLAAD, into our Surface Level Family. We discuss ways in which our community can support itself in relation to sexual and holistic health. We wrap up by highlighting resources that support all areas of Black Queer health and wellbeing. So if you’re curious, join us as we kick off season 3.

EP 210 | Beyond The Surface Level 2 Dec 28, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are Black, Queer, and Curious. Curiosity and vulnerability, the latter being the true addition to this season. Once again, we take a look back at the journey we know as Surface Level. We revisit some of the seasons most fun moments while delving deeper into some of its most personal. From barbershops, to sex, to politics we covered quite the range of topics. We gave the reigns over to our friend Corey Townsend, accomplished journalist, and correspondent, who put us in the hot seat. He held our feet to the fire on some of our positions stated throughout the season, while also bringing his own brand of Black and Queer shade. We expanded this season with the addition of guests, and production upgrades. At its core Surface Level remains the same, it’s a study in how we can be the most authentic versions of ourselves. It is a quest for knowledge regarding topics we are unfamiliar with. It is three Black and Queer voices yelling with care into the universe hoping we can be a small light in what has been a tumultuous year. #STAYCURIOUS

EP 209 | onlyfans.com/surfacelevel Dec 22, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the shame we attach to sexual desire.

This episode discusses a topic no one wants to publicly talk about while privately partaking. How has the shame attached to sex affected our exploration of it as Black Queer men?

We discuss our sexual history, desires we have that we were once ashamed of, the things we wished we knew as baby gays, and play a fun game of naughty superlatives.

This episode is not one to be missed, we laugh from beginning to end while addressing this serious yet comical topic. You will learn some unexpected bits about the hosts, so get ready to see a different side of Surface Level.

EP 208 | Butch Queen On The Scene Dec 16, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the joy and pain the Queer social scene can create.

This episode discusses our experiences in Queer social settings. Do the current social options represent the interest of too narrow a selection of Queer men?

We discuss memorable club experiences, our ideal social settings, anxieties we face in Queer social settings, the Harlem social scene, and the defining elements of an upper echelon Queer social experience.

We welcome Leon Curry to Surface Level. He is the creator of the infamous Trappy Hour party and man behind its boisterous social media presence. Trappy Hour has a following that includes big names like Issa Ray but more importantly aims to create a safe space for the Black butch queens of the world. We explore Leon’s personal experience from small town Florida to a Harlem staple with all of its unexpected turns. Black Queer safe spaces are a must in this world and this week we explore one that was created in our native Harlem. So join us as we explore what we affectionately call Club Surface Level.

EP 207 | Skinny Legends Only Dec 09, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about how we have contributed to the system of fatphobia. This episode discusses the pressures Black Queer men face in idolizing certain body types. How can we as a culture do more to stop the othering of fatness? We discuss key news headlines, the definition of fatphobia, the internal and external pressures to look “desirable”, the role appearance plays in how Queer men create friend groups, and how to speak openly about your own physical insecurities without using fatphobic tropes. We welcome our friend Aaron Randle to Surface Level. He is an experienced journalist and podcast producer. He’s also a fellow son of Howard University who entered our Harlem circle about a year ago. Earlier this year Aaron took to his very active Twitter to speak on the topic of fatphobia not only as a theory but on how it is furthered from those around him. This led to many meaningful discussions, debates, and questions regarding the topic. Exploring his experience regarding a topic that our privilege allowed us to ignore felt like the perfect topic for Surface Level. We’ve said before that we are curious because we know a lot but we don’t know it all. In this instance we wade into sensitive waters but hope we gave this topic the respect and open minds to listen that it deserves.

EP 206 | No Lesbians Allowed Dec 02, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the experiences of Black Queer women.

This episode discusses how Black Queer women fit into the broader movement for the liberation of all Queer people. Can we as Queer men be doing more to understand and support Queer women?

We discuss Queer women in entertainment, the positive and negative effects of the LGBTQIA umbrella, the role Black women play in the feminist movement, the differences in the gay and lesbian social scenes, and get playful while being schooled on the labels within the lesbian community.

We welcome an amazing guest Dr. Frances Armas-Edwards to Surface Level. She is an equity, diversity and inclusion expert, leadership coach, and educator. She brings both personal experience and professional knowledge to this conversation. Together we explore the intersections of our identity through race, gender, and sexuality. We are excited to expand our exploration of Black and Queer life and include a perspective totally different from our own. We learned a ton in this episode, and we hope that our curiosity about this topic sparks many more conversations.ope that our curiosity about this topic sparks many more conversations.

EP 205 | Broke With Expensive Taste Nov 25, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about how to create generational wealth.

This episode discusses the effects of long and short term financial investments. Do we care too much about immediate gratification in making financial decisions?

We discuss the luxuries we can’t live without, the value of social interactions in professional development, the desire to possess status symbols, the worst financial decisions we’ve made, and how we’ve gotten a better handle on our spending over time.

Don’t be fooled by all the topics, this is not your average financial freedom seminar. We still bring the laughs and the shade like only Surface Level can. As three Black Queer men who are the first in our families to explore our current financial landscape, we hope above all, not to be the last!

EP 204 | Undetectable Nov 18, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the ongoing stigma regarding HIV.

This episode discusses our lived experiences as Black Queer men with and without HIV. How can we collectively work to remove the stigma and educate people about HIV in 2020?

We discuss our individual HIV statuses, the shift in our perception of HIV over the years, the intersection of art and activism, the science behind being undetectable, the role of negative individuals in removing stigmatization, and any advice for individuals newly diagnosed.

The episode, easily one of our most personal, also welcomes Dimitri Moïse into the Surface Level family. His vast list of accolades include being a Broadway performer, magazine editor, and a national HIV activist. Dimitri has used the combination of his own positive diagnosis with his public platform to shed light on the reality of HIV in 2020 and help inspire people all over the world. He shares a beautiful moment with the hosts in witnessing one of the guys speak publicly for the first time about being positive. In true Surface Level fashion we still laugh and have a lot of fun, but with this episode in particular we hope to inspire our listeners to lead with compassion, listen to science, and shed beliefs not based in reality, as we do our part in chipping away at this decades old stigma

EP 203 | Sup? Looking? Into? Nov 11, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the expectations associated with dating in our thirties.

This episode discusses what we look for in both casual and serious encounters with other Queer men. Are our expectations on dating becoming unrealistic or more clear as we age?

We discuss hookup culture, Grindr interactions, shifting dating expectations, the value we place on finding forever partners, and when to establish relationship needs with a new partner.

Dating in New York City is the best of times and the worst of times all wrapped in one. Layering In the experiences of being Black and Queer creates the perfect storm of complexities. We hope to gain clarity on our desires with time, but we can’t say for sure if that is yet the case.

EP 202 | A Little Off the Top Nov 11, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the queer experience in the traditionally cishet barbershop environment.

This episode discusses our interactions with the barbershop as youth and adults. Do we have a reason to feel unwelcomed in this environment or is it all in our heads?

We discuss our favorite past hairstyles, rap culture in barbershops, how we engage in shop talk, queer expression and acceptance in barbershops, and the ideal space if we were to create one ourselves.

The shop is a part of our community that we cannot escape. As one of our hosts said, we can’t go downtown to get our hair cut with scissors. Is this cultural space doing all it can to welcome Black people from all walks of life, we’ll explore that here?

EP 201 | Haus of Representatives Nov 11, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about what is next for a nation divided.

This episode discusses our current engagement with politics in what will surely go down as the grand finale to one of the most tumultuous presidential terms in history. Is this America, or an anomaly in the journey of this country?

We discuss the presidential election, Black women’s role in politics, the flood of new Queer politicians at all levels of government, how money affects politics, and all things Queen Kamala Harris.

We are also excited to welcome our first ever guest and fellow Howard Bison, Dorien Blythers. His political track record includes having worked as a Field Organizer for Barack Obama’s 2012 re-election and as Regional Political Director for Senator Kamala Harris’ presidential campaign. He’s currently a Political Director at End Citizens United. Bringing his expertise into this conversation is sure to make it a rewarding experience for all who need a bit more clarity on exactly where we go from here.

EP 10 | Beyond The Surface Level Aug 05, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are Black, Queer, and curious. This episode discusses what this experience has meant to us and revisits the season through the lens of crowd sourced questions. We discuss our favorite episodes, the friction between Damon and Jordan, reactions to he podcast from friends, family, and colleagues, any strain this project has placed on our friendship, adjustments we made due to quarantine, and the biggest impact Surface Level has had on the three hosts. We began this process with a simple focus on curiosity. We kicked off confident in our ability to address topics with care and authenticity, while understanding that our voices only represented the experiences of three individuals. This episode was built around our desire to serve and be a voice for community. In the quest to learn and grow from this project we will continue to challenge our audience and each other to #STAYCURIOUS. EP 10 | BEYOND THE SURFACE LEVEL Download

EP 9 | Call Tyrone (And My Therapist) Jul 29, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about what defines “successful” relationships.

This episode discusses our experiences with dating in New York City. Are there lessons to be learned and applied to every relationship or should each experience be evaluated on its own?

We discuss music therapy, our longest previous relationships, what dating life has looked like recently, our views on monogamy, and the most surprising things we’ve learned from previous entanglements.

Relationships are centered on clear agreements. The commitment to those agreements and what they are is different for all individuals. Every experience we have in life shapes us to be more complex version of ourselves. Combining all of who we are with another in hopes of a shared lifetime experience is a monumental goal, even for the best of us. To remove some of that pressure we think back to a Jesse Boykins lyric on love. “People live their whole lives trying to find it. Even if it’s for a second or for a minute If somebody can experience what it is to be loved and love truly that’s what w'e’re here for.”

EP 8 | Is It Because I'm Black-ish? Jul 22, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about privilege within the Black community.

This episode discusses the nuance of Black experience. Are there set topics where we should focus on community more than individually?

We discuss the “Blackest" cultural experiences, our connection to the places where we grew up compared to New York City, privileges we possess, the balance of checking our privilege compared to dimming our light, and just a few Black cards we’d like to revoke.

According to Joe Biden, if you don’t for for him you ain’t Black. With a collective eye roll we agreed that our history, present, and future are too vast to be dwindled into such sweeping assertions. We delve into how the intersections our race, sexuality, body types, and skin tones add layers to our experiences both inside and out of our community. Those individual experiences create the multiplicity that fuels a community that should recognize both the pain and joy in all of its members.

EP 7 | We Can't Be Friends Jul 15, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the give and take in defining friendship.

This episode discusses the expectations we place on friendship. Is there a set definition of our relationships with others or does it evolve over time?

We discuss each other’s most annoying traits, the line between friend and associate, rules or lack there of around friends and exes, when it’s time to break up with a friend, and how our internal struggles manifest in our relationships with others.

The term friend is thrown around so often that it can sometimes feel empty. After spending a decade building our bond we share the things that have made it both successful and challenging. In the end, that connection looks quite different today than it did in our early twenties. There is one concept we all agree on - if there is no growth in a friendship, there is definitely not a chance for longevity.

EP 6 | The Magical Negro Is OOO Jul 08, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about why being Black at work is so hard.

This episode discusses the part of our lives where code switching is not only encouraged but often expected. Are the expectations of Black employees too high for any human to consistently meet?

We discuss our experiences in corporate America, assimilation and if it is the route to success, the pressure to represent our entire race in the workplace, and how we can make being Black at work less rare.

Far too often in New York people tend to start conversations asking the condescending question, “what do you do?” For us, the answer isn’t simply the expected banter of disclosing our profession. We are Black, queer, creative professionals trying to bring the best parts of ourselves to an environment that was never set up for us to succeed, and we’re expected to do it all with a smile.

EP 5 | #STUNTQUEENZ Jul 01, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the price of fabricating our lives for Instagram.

This episode discusses the life we live compared to the one we feel compelled to portray on social media. How often are sharing real moments vs ones created, purely for the currency of likes?

We discuss our Instagram flirting styles, online stunts that we’ve personally pulled, influencer culture, the negative effects of creating a false digital persona, and digital content we love.

The world is moving further and further towards digital interaction. Access to technology started this and the experience of quarantine amplified it. We explore where the line is drawn between aspiration and fabrication, or if there really is one at all.

EP 4 | Dad, I’m A Bottom Jun 23, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the acceptance of queerness among Black men.

This episode discusses coming out to our fathers and the impact it had on each of our relationships. Can there be healing from a relationship splintered from coming out? How have our dads fought against the stigma of homophobia among Black men?

We discuss celebrity dads we love, the joy and pain of coming out to our fathers, censoring our sexuality around other Black men, and the types of dads we would like to be.

The process of coming out for any queer person is an act that can greatly alter their relationships with others. The bond between father and son is one that we explore in hopes of normalizing love between all Black men. The one thing we all want is to experience love no matter how we identify.

EP 3 | Last Scene & Last Season Jun 12, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the space we give artists to be flawed before cancellation.

This episode evaluates artists for who they are as people. In the age of social media the expectation is that people let you into their lives. They craft their persona in a way that exposes their talent but also their flaws. And we take every opportunity to evaluate each of them.

We discuss artists we couldn’t cancel, a certain host’s obsession with Keri Hilson, the social responsibility of public figures; the poster couple of cancel culture Kimye, and the lines people have to cross before we pull the plug on supporting them.

Are we wrong for loving certain bops even if they are made by trash a human? Let’s evaluate what those qualifiers are. In the end we’re all human and need room to screw up, learn, and grow. Yes, there are absolute wrongs but maybe we spend some time understanding that culture should accept growth without the knee jerk desire to cancel.

EP 2 | The Trade Is Ruining My Life Jun 12, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the value of masculinity.

This episode explores the masc obsession, specifically in the queer community. We work, we worship, we date, we make love, we exercise, we live all through the guise of our relationship with and the external opinions of where we land on the “butch” scale.

We discuss gentlemen we’d keep, freak & delete, chasing trade, butching it up when we’re around the heteros, learning to love our femininity, and the parts of the journey to seasoned butch queen that are still in progress.

There is a Moses Sumney lyric that reads, “I insist upon my right to be multiple, even more so I insist upon the recognition of my multiplicity. All things encompassed in one...” We are three versions of many things combined into individuals who want to live as free as possible. In that quest for freedom as Black queer men, we’re looking to place value in all parts of us, not just those that are expected.

EP 1 | The Politics Of Quarantine Jun 12, 2020

Damon, Jordan & Tony are curious about the world we could create if we did not fear sacrifice.

Our first episode comes at a moment defined by a health crisis that disproportionately affects Black people, and police violence towards Black people…or what our community would call a normal day in America.

We discuss the strain of being confined to our New York City apartments for months, shifting to a way of life in which we were forced to be socially distant(ish), our favorite social media breakout stars, and glimmers of hope that our Black queer lives will start to matter in this country.

If mattering is the end goal, how are we supposed to get there? Voting, protesting, rioting, digital campaigns, making space in professional environments? The answers of “how” vary greatly between us and the conversation gets tense at times, pushing the borders of comfort that our friendship typically inhabits. Well, our first sacrifice is comfort in trying to create a world where our Black queer lives matter.

Surface Level Trailer Jun 03, 2020

A show that takes a look at society’s expectations and rejects the ones we don’t see it for — all from the perspective of three black, queer best friends.

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