Spiritual Life and Leadership

Latest Episodes:

169. The Materiality of God's Mission, with Miroslav Volf, author of The Home of God Jun 20, 2023

Show notes

Miroslav Volf is the Henry B. Wright Professor of Systematic Theology at Yale Divinity School and the co-author of The Home of God: A Brief Story of Everything.
In this episode, Miroslav Volf and I talk about what it means for this world to be God’s home. And what it means for this world to be our home. And what this means for the mission of the church. And, finally, what should the church do when it feels like this world isn’t our home?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Miroslav Volf is the Henry B. Wright Professor of Systematic Theology at Yale Divinity School and the co-author of The Home of God: A Brief Story of Everything.
The purpose of this book is to sketch the story in which we situate our lives so we can discern the meaning of our lives.
According to Miroslav Volf, creation is God’s home.
God delights in bringing the world to its fullness.
In Revelation, we see God making his home on the earth.
Miroslav Volf reflects on why Christian tradition seems to have lost the idea that God wants to make God’s home here on earth—rather than far away in heaven.
We ought to think in terms of salvation being a matter of matter. According to Miroslav Volf, there is a materiality to salvation.
The world is a home of homes.
Miroslav Volf coined the term dysoikos, which refers to “home that isn’t home.” It expresses the feeling of being alienated, of being a stranger in one’s own home or space.
God redeems us out of our sense of dysoikos, so that we might be made at one with each other, at one with our place, at one with creation, and at one with God.
God invites us out of dysoikos and into the home that God has for us?
Miroslav Volf reflects on how the church is called to navigate a world—a home—that is constantly changing.
We can’t orient ourselves around the old world. And we don’t know how to orient ourselves with a world that hasn’t yet been born.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Miroslav Volf
- Yale Center for Faith and Culture
Books mentioned:
- The Home of God: a Brief Story of Everything, by Miroslav Volf

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168. Recalibrating Leadership Greatness, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jun 13, 2023

Show notes

This episode revolves around Ken Blanchard's words from ep. 86, which states that "Great leaders are great because people trust and respect them, not because they have power."
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the idea that true greatness is achieved through earning trust and respect, rather than relying on authority or position of power. They also discuss the importance of adaptive leadership, the need for transformation, and the role of trust in leadership.
Overall, the conversation reflects on the idea of servant leadership modeled by Jesus, where true greatness is measured by the impact one has on others.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Ken Blanchard in Episode 86: Leading Like Jesus.
"Great leaders are great because people trust and respect them, not because they have power.”
Ep. 86 is a conversation about Ken Blanchard's book, Lead Like Jesus.

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW:
[00:02:46] Trust is essential in adaptive leadership to lead people through transformation, but it's not enough. Leaders need to empower and enable their followers to reach their full potential.

[00:05:02] Leadership is about gathering people together and collaborating on what needs to be learned and where to go. The leader's role is to name the transformation process that everyone, especially the leader, will go through.
Q&A:
1. Can anyone be a "great" leader?
Answer: Yes, almost anyone can be a great leader in the sense of earning trust and respect from those being led.
2. What is the importance of trust in leadership?
Answer: Trust is built on technical competence and relational congruence, and is key to effective leadership and taking people through the transformation process.
3. What is necessary for transformation besides trust?
Answer: People must be empowered, cared for, and enabled to become all that God wants them to be.
4. What is true greatness according to this episode?
Answer: True greatness is measured by the impact one has on others, their respect and trust, not by power, acclaim, platforms, clicks, or likes.

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167. Called to Each Other, with Claude Alexander, author of Becoming the Church Jun 06, 2023

Show notes

Claude Alexander is senior pastor of The Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina and the author of Becoming the Church: God’s People in Purpose and Power.

The church has never been perfect.
It has always been filled broken people, sinful people, silly people, selfish people, violent people, manipulative people, mistaken people, intrusive people, rough-around-the edges people.
All kinds of people. Including good people, kind people, compassionate people, people of justice.
The church, we might say, is made of a “becoming” people.
That’s what Bishop Claude Alexander and Markus Watson discuss in this episode, focusing on what it means to be a people who, not only are the church, but who are continuing to become the church in all the fullness of who the church is meant to be.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Bishop Claude Alexander is senior pastor of The Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina and the author of Becoming the Church: God’s People in Purpose and Power.
Claude Alexander suggests there is a tendency to separate Jesus from the church. But you can’t separate them.
We need to temper our expectation that the church is a perfect product.
The Church is essentially a people in the process of becoming.
Claude Alexander describes Peter and Thomas as being “dechurched” after the death of Jesus.
Churches need to do a better job of discipling people before they become dechurched.
Many churches feel marginalized and decentered in Western society today. But that is not a new experience for churches composed of racial and ethnic minorities.
Our call in Christ, according to Claude Alexander, calls us to each other in the complexity of our diversity.
Claude Alexander discusses the ways the apostles had to adapt in the early church, focusing especially on Acts 6.
It was because of their obedience to what they knew that the apostles were able to seize later opportunities that God had for them.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Claude Alexander:
Books mentioned:
- Becoming the Church: God’s People in Purpose and Power, by Claude Alexander
- Anonymous: Jesus’ Hidden Years…and Yours, by Alicia Britt Chole

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166. The Church's Love Affair with Power, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 30, 2023

Show notes

On this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the issue of power and the church's love affair with it, which is exceedingly harmful, especially considering our faith's cornerstone, the Suffering Servant.
Tod and Markus emphasize the importance of adopting a leadership model that is reflective of Jesus and prioritizes shared leadership. They also highlight the struggle for power and control that often comes with leadership, but Jesus's life and teachings resist the idea of lording over others in a leadership position.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Episode 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership.
"There’s been this strange collusion and love affair with power that the church has had in general—which is interesting given that our faith is centered on the Crucified One, the Suffering Servant."
Ep. 82 is a conversation about Chuck DeGroat's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church.
TIMESTAMPS:
[00:01:31] Leadership is not about lording over others; even Jesus' closest disciples struggled with this temptation.
[00:03:12] Leadership should reflect Jesus and not be built on desires for power and control. Bad leaders are the problem and good shepherds are needed.
[00:06:27] Text summary: Chuck de Grote comments on the church's love affair with power despite being centered on the suffering servant.
Q&A:
1. What is the "Suffering Servant" leadership style and what does it require?
Answer: The "Suffering Servant" leadership style requires sharing and adaptivity.
2. What is the importance of the concept of power in ministry leadership?
Answer: The topic of power is one of the most deeply rooted challenges of being human, particularly for those in positions of authority, and it is essential for leaders to take it seriously and see it as a lifelong area for personal growth and development.
3. How does the idea of being like God relate to the desire for power?
Answer: The idea of being like God was the first temptation, according to the Genesis story, and the desire for power is rooted in a deep human awareness of vulnerability.
4. What is Chuck DeGroat's quote about the church's relationship with power?
Answer: Chuck DeGroat notes that the church has a "love affair" with power, which is interesting given that faith is centered on the Suffering Servant.
5. What is Jesus' view on lording over others in leadership roles?
Answer: Jesus spoke out against the idea of lording over others in leadership roles and emphasized the importance of servant leadership.

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165. The Value of a Low Anthropology, with David Zahl, author of Low Anthropology May 23, 2023

Show notes

David Zahl is founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries and the author of Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself).
One of the hardest lessons I’ve had to learn is that people are not always going to look out for what’s best for one another--or for me. In fact, sometimes people are going to outright try to tear each other down.
But our expectation is often that people would be good--an expectation that David Zahl says is rooted in a high anthropology.
But maybe what we need is a low anthropology—a way of understanding humanity as being essentially limited and broken and focused on their own good.
That sounds depressing. But David Zahl makes the case that a low anthropology actually helps us lead in a way that is more gracious and brings about more healing for people who are broken—including ourselves.
THIS EPISODES'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

David Zahl is founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries and the author of Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself).
One’s anthropology refers essentially to one’s view of human nature.
According to David Zahl, a high anthropology views human beings as prone to doing great things and bringing about positive transformation. Low anthropology views humanity as inherently limited, compromised, and is perhaps a more sober view of humanity.
A high anthropology tends to breed a sense of entitlement in people.
A low anthropology puts everyone on a level playing field. We are all broken.
David Zahl believes a low anthropology is a doorway to talking about grace.
The three pillars of a low anthropology are:
- Limitation – There is a God and it’s not you.
- Doubleness – We are a bundle of competing motivations.
- Self-centeredness – We often want what’s bad for us or what comes at a cost for other people.
David Zahl reflects on the ways that limitation, doubleness, and self-centeredness are experienced in churches.
Ultimately, a low anthropology is a biblical anthropology.
A low anthropology, according to David Zahl, says that people are fundamentally in need of help from other people and from God.
A low anthropology allows us to encourage people in their giftings.
A low anthropology goes hand in hand with a high Christology.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

David Zahl:
- Mockingbird website - https://mbird.com/
- Mockingcast podcast - https://mbird.com/category/the-mockingcast/
Books mentioned:
- Low Anthropology, by David Zahl
- Seculosity, by David Zahl

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164. Failure Moves Us Deeper, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 16, 2023

Show notes

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Michael MacKenzie in Episode 122: Burned Out and Broken.
“Success is more dangerous for the human soul than failure.”
Ep. 122 is a conversation about Michael MacKenzie's book, Don't Blow Up Your Ministry.

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163. You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost, with Steve Carter, author of The Thing Beneath the Thing May 09, 2023

Show notes

What do you do when you’re set up to be the successor of the lead pastor of one of the biggest and most well-known churches in the world and suddenly everything comes crashing down?
What do you do when it becomes clear that the beloved pastor you were meant to follow has been found to be abusive toward women—and the church’s leadership fails to take responsibility for the systems that allowed that?

What do you do?

This is exactly the situation that Steve Carter faced. Steve was set to succeed Bill Hybels at Willow Creek Church in Chicago. And when news broke of the things Hybels had done, Steve had to make a decision.
Would he stay and become complicit in the system that made Hybels’ abuse possible? Or would he step away and let go of everything that to this point had given him a sense of value and meaning?
Today, Steve Carter is the pastor of Forest City Church outside Chicago And the author of The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It).
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Steve Carter and Markus Watson walked the Camino de Santiago together in October 2022 as part of the Journey Home cohort led by Jon Huckins.
Steve Carter met Bill Hybels while interning with Rob Bell.
Steve joined the staff of Willow Creek Church and was soon tapped to succeed Bill Hybels as pastor of the church.
Eventually, Steve found out (from his book editor!) that a story was going to come out about Bill Hybels.
Ultimately, Steve resigned from Willow Creek because the story of Bill Hybels’ history of abuse was being mishandled by the leadership. Steve felt that by staying he would have been complicit.
Leaving Willow Creek was incredibly difficult and painful for Steve.
It was while walking the Camino de Santiago that Steve Carter was finally able to say, “I love Bill Hybels.”
Markus Watson shares about his experience of healing and transformation and healing while on the Camino de Santiago.
According to Steve Carter, we need to respond to the reality of suffering in three ways:
- Past: Practice forgiveness for what has happened.
- Present: Rely on your core values—because you’re not going to make everyone happy.
- Future: Prepare and practice for what may come.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Steve Carter:
- Forest City Church
- Craft and Character podcast
Books mentioned:
- The Thing Beneath the Thing, by Steve Carter
Journey Home: A Pilgrimmage for Men

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162. Transform Your Church Through Story, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 02, 2023

Show notes

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Ian Morgan Cron in Episode 121: The Story of You.
"All transformation begins with story transformation."
Ep. 121 is a conversation about Ian Morgan Cron's book, The Story of You.

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161. Preaching for Deep Connection, with Lisa Lamb, author of Resonate Apr 25, 2023

Show notes

Lisa Lamb is professor of preaching and theology at St. Paul’s Theological College and the author of Resonate: How to Preach for Deep Connection.

Sometimes I wonder how effective sermons are. As a receiver of sermons, I probably don’t remember 99% of the sermons I’ve heard. At the same time, some sermons I’ve heard have been life-changing for me.

The question for us preachers is: How do we preach sermons that connect? Sermons that make an impact? Sermons that truly resonate?

Lisa Lamb helps us answer these questions.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Lisa Lamb is professor of preaching and theology at St. Paul’s Theological College and other schools in Malaysia and India, and the author of Resonate: How to Preach for Deep Connection.
Lisa shares what she loves about preaching.
The preaching framework is grounded in verbs. What kinds of verbs are being used in the sermon and in which person are they being spoken?
Preaching in the first person singular gives the congregation a sense who the preacher is and where the preacher is coming from.
Second person singular speech is powerful speech. It blesses and exhorts.
Third person singular is the proclaimer. Lisa Lamb says that speaking in the third person is where we declare God’s goodness.
Third person plural says, “These things are true.”
Lisa Lamb explains how the past, present, and future tenses impact a sermon.
We don’t need to hit all these aspects in every sermon. But Lisa Lamb suggests looking back over several months to see if you’ve spoken in all these ways.
The indicative form is simply naming reality.
The subjunctive form asks, “What if?”
The imperative form—the command—can lead people in very life-giving ways.
Lisa Lamb reflects on how preaching can help congregations wrestle with competing values.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Resonate: How to Preach for Deep Connection, by Lisa Lamb
Paraclete Mission Associates
- Rich and Lisa Lamb page

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160. A Church That Demonstrates God's Goodness, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Apr 18, 2023

Show notes

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot Mcknight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse.
"A tov pastor, tov leaders, a tov church does not abuse power, does not sexually abuse women, does not sexually abuse children.... Tov people don't do these things."
Ep. 92 is a conversation with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer about their book, A Church Called Tov.

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