Spiritual Life and Leadership

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Latest Episodes:

258. Walking the Path of Other-Centered Leadership, with Marc Schelske, author of Walking Otherward Mar 04, 2025

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True ministry leadership isn’t about power; it’s about love in action. It’s about stepping into the self-giving, co-suffering way of Jesus, even when it feels counterintuitive. This kind of leadership doesn’t seek control but embraces humility, sacrifice, and deep connection with those we serve.

In this episode, Marc Schelske, pastor of Bridge City Community Church and author of Walking Otherward, unpacks how embracing this kind of love reshapes our leadership, strengthens our churches, and helps us navigate the challenges of ministry with grace and wisdom.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Marc Schelske introduces the concept of other-centered, co-suffering love as a key aspect of following Jesus.
The phrase "other-centered, co-suffering love" encompasses love that is conscious of others and willing to bear their burdens.
Marc Schelske emphasizes the significance of Philippians 2 and Jesus' journey to Jerusalem as examples of this love.
Jesus' journey to Jerusalem symbolizes a path that is not self-centered but oriented towards others.
Self-centered, ego-defending ambition contrasts sharply with the way Jesus modeled leadership.
Marc Schelske reflects on his own leadership transition, focusing on how he learned to disconnect identity from numerical success.
Leadership driven by other-centered, co-suffering love requires holding space for others to process change at their own pace.
Marc Schelske explains the importance of allowing time in decision-making processes to foster consensual and loving leadership.
The fear of death and discomfort often drives the desire for control and power within leadership.
Marc Schelske discusses creating communities where multiple perspectives can coexist without division.
Churches must embrace a posture of vulnerability and humility in their leadership practices.
Marc Schelske highlights that love acts by consent, meaning decisions should include space for honest dialogue and dissent.
Co-suffering love challenges traditional notions of leadership by prioritizing presence over power.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Marc Schelske:
- Website - https://marcalanschelske.com/
- Bridge City Community Church
Books mentioned:
- Walking Otherward, by Marc Schelske
- Falling Upward, by Richard Rohr
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

257. Slowing Down When the World Speeds Up, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Feb 25, 2025

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the importance of acknowledging when leaders feel overwhelmed and how critical it is to slow down and reflect rather than react impulsively. Through engaging metaphors and practical advice, they share strategies for adaptive leadership, highlighting practices such as pausing, getting perspective, and silent prayer to navigate chaos and uncertainty effectively.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 242, Life and Leadership in the Fog:

"The world is moving fast. Change is speeding up and human brains haven't necessarily changed in order to be able to cope with all that's happening."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Leaders need to acknowledge feeling overwhelmed when confronting rapid change.
Practicing adaptive leadership requires slowing down and reflecting rather than reacting impulsively.
Effective leaders train themselves to pause and assess before taking action during crises.
Pausing to pray or gain perspective can help leaders manage chaotic situations more effectively.
Leaders should ask if immediate decisions are necessary to avoid defaulting to outdated practices.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

256. Digital Disruption and the Future of the Church, with Rex Miller, author of The Millenium Matrix Feb 18, 2025

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AI, social media, and other technologies are transforming community, worship, and leadership. To stay effective, ministry leaders must understand these shifts—but also learn from the past. How do today’s technologies compare to those of previous eras? This perspective can help us navigate the future.

In this episode, I’m joined by Rex Miller, author of The Millennium Matrix. A futurist and expert in leading through change, Rex will share insights on how cultural and technological shifts impact ministry and how we can adapt.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Rex Miller explores the impact of communication changes on Christianity over the centuries.
The Millennium Matrix analyzes shifts in communication and their effects on church culture.
Rex Miller describes the transformation from an oral culture to print culture through technological advancements like the Gutenberg printing press.
The broadcast era introduced personality-driven leadership and large-scale praise and worship experiences in churches.
Rex Miller explains the transition from analog to digital technology and its wider implications.
Digital culture fosters interactive, networked communication that reshapes organizational and cultural dynamics.
In the social mobile era, personalized and real-time interactions dominate communication patterns.
Rex Miller predicts that AI will enhance personalization and autonomy in community formation.
The shift from community-centric oral culture to individualistic broadcast culture reflects changes in authority structures.
Markus Watson delves into how shifting cultural frameworks affect pastoral leadership and church practices.
Rex Miller sees potential in decentralized, grassroots approaches to modern church gatherings.
The opportunities for direct community involvement and personalized content create new forms of ministry.
Rex Miller highlights how technological changes continuously reshape leadership and organizational strategies.
Church leaders must transition from a certainty mindset to one of curiosity to adapt effectively to cultural changes.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Rex Miller:
Books mentioned:
- The Millenium Matrix, by Rex Miller
- Neuromancer, by William Gibson
Movies mentioned:
- Jesus Revolution
- Pleasantville
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

255. Mission-Centered Decision Making, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Feb 11, 2025

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Based on their experiences as pastors, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the delicate balance between seeking consensus through voting and the necessity of leading with focus and clarity. They delve into the unique challenges and responsibilities that come with adaptive leadership, emphasizing the importance of mission-driven decisions.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Uli Chi in Ep. 240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli Chi:

“There are times when leaders lead by providing focus and clarity, rather than simply taking a vote on everything.”
THIS EPISODES HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Leaders guide by offering focus and clarity, not just by voting on every decision.
Decisive leadership is necessary in complex situations.
Effective pastors highlight the mission and encourage their boards to make decisions accordingly.
True leadership sometimes requires addressing difficult truths instead of seeking unanimous consensus.
Providing focus and clarity often involves asking the right questions to guide the team's decision-making process.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

254. Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion, with Jonathan Hoover, author of Stress Fracture Feb 04, 2025

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Burnout. An all too familiar experience for most of us. It's more than just feeling tired or overworked. It's that crushing sense of futility when your passion for ministry runs out, and it leaves you wondering if you can even continue the work you were once so excited about.

Jonathan Hoover, the author of Stress Fracture, Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout, shares valuable insights from his experience and research, including practical strategies for managing stress, the importance of self-care, and maintaining emotional and spiritual health in leadership.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jonathan Hoover shares the significant stress his father faced while pastoring their church.
Jonathan Hoover explains how his father experienced severe emotional and physical symptoms of burnout.
Markus Watson asks about the role of spirituality in addressing burnout.
Jonathan Hoover highlights how the biblical story of Elijah offers insights into addressing burnout through rest and care.
The world tempts people to believe they are infinite, leading to stress and burnout.
Jonathan Hoover talks about 'super rats' and the dangers of endless adaptation to stress.
Creating margin in life by setting limits can help prevent burnout.
Monitoring multiple aspects of life, such as physical and emotional health, can help manage burnout.
Jonathan Hoover introduces the concept of emotional exhaustion and how it impacts emotional regulation.
Emotional intelligence decreases as emotional exhaustion increases.
Burnout leads to a loss of passion and a fatalistic outlook on success.
Minimizing distractions and increasing self-awareness are crucial in preventing burnout.
To prevent burnout, people need to realize their own limits and adjust their workloads.
Jonathan Hoover explains that emotional awareness is necessary for making lifestyle adjustments.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Jonathan Hoover:
- Website – drjonathanhoover.com
- Church website - Newspring.org
Books mentioned:
- Stress Fracture, by Jonathan Hoover
- Leadership on the Line, by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

253. Leading from a Place of Inner Abundance, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jan 28, 2025

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the essential question: "What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation?" They discuss the importance of leaders acknowledging their own needs and the dangers of seeking fulfillment from their congregations instead of God. Learn how aligning personal needs with God's guidance can help leaders bring true abundance to their communities.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Alan Fadling in Ep 238, Lead with Less Anxiety:

"What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation in hopes they'll meet me there rather than learning to take the thirsts of my soul to God so that God could meet me in those places? And then I could bring abundance to the community of people entrusted to me.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Leaders must acknowledge their needs to avoid seeking affirmation from their congregations improperly.
Effective leaders should bring their soul’s needs to God rather than their congregations.
Leaders face the temptation of people-pleasing, which can derail their adherence to God's mission.
Being transparent about personal needs helps leaders avoid subconscious behaviors that could hinder mission-focused leadership.
Fulfilling personal needs through appropriate relationships prevents dependence on congregational approval.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

252. Navigating the Pain of Being "Othered," with Jenai Auman, author of Othered Jan 21, 2025

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This episode tackles the topic of being "othered" by those in church leadership, an important conversation for anyone in ministry leadership who wants to understand how to create an environment of embrace, of love, of belonging—and of being a healthy team.
Jenai Auman, the author of Othered, discusses her personal experiences of being othered by church leaders, the impact it had on her, and how leaders can cultivate communities marked by shalom and hesed.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jenai Auman shares her struggles with toxic issues and resistance at a church where she was on staff.
Advocacy for personal boundaries led to Jenai being labeled as the problem and asked to leave the church.
Individuals often remain in unhealthy environments due to a shallow understanding of love and belonging, influenced by past trauma.
Jenai Auman identifies with domestic violence survivors in her determination to fix the system from within.
Through her painful experience, Jenai Auman gained transformative wisdom and spiritual growth.
Emphasizing the importance of healing, Jenai Auman aims to avoid bitterness and repeating the harm done to her.
The hesed of God demonstrates loving kindness and compassion, aiming for wholeness in a fractured world.
The zero-sum game misconception causes competition for comfort and peace, but God's shalom advocates for abundance.
By adopting an open-handed posture towards others, we mirror God's nature, fostering inclusivity and belonging.
Jenai Auman advises those feeling othered to recognize their inherent belovedness without seeking external validation.
Church leaders should focus on self-reflection and compassion, avoiding defensive othering.
Jenai Auman discusses the concept of shalom as a state of peace involving love, wisdom, and understanding personal stories.
Naming experiences of othering is crucial for healing, enabling reconciliation and peace.
Jenai Auman reflects on how her experiences with othering have shaped her understanding of mutuality and divine love.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jenai Auman:
- Website
- Substack
- Email
Books mentioned:
- Othered, by Jenai Auman
Related episodes:
- 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat
- 92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
- 163. You Can’t Be Found if You’re Never Lost, with Steve Carter

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

251. How Church Leaders Can Overcome Fear and Build Trust, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jan 14, 2025

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson reflect on how fear influences our congregations and the importance of addressing it directly. They discuss the role of technical expertise in building trust and how leaders can compassionately accompany people through their fears, especially in times of change and perceived loss. Tod shares strategies for normalizing fear, creating communities of empathy, and tackling resistance by engaging with those who are most fearful.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 236, Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church:

“People have a tendency to be fearful of what they don't understand and what they don't know.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the importance of accompanying people through their fears in leadership.
Leaders need to acknowledge and normalize fear to help people navigate their anxieties.
Churches should invite experts to build technical competence and trust.
Addressing resistance directly helps calm fears and fosters gradual progress.
Creating a community of empathy ensures that no one faces loss or fear alone.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

250. The Prophetic Challenge of Deconstruction, with Scot McKnight, author of Invisible Jesus Jan 07, 2025

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In this episode, we’re taking a deep-dive into the complex and, at times, nerve-wracking experience of deconstruction. Leaders often worry about its impact on their roles, their authority, and on the harmony or unity of their church communities. But what if deconstruction is less about tearing down faith and more about stripping away what's non-essential, centering instead on Jesus?

In this epidsode, Scot McKnight, author of Invisible Jesus, sheds light on how deconstruction can be a path to a more Christ-focused faith, emphasizing the importance of creating supportive spaces for exploring and asking questions. This conversation is crucial for ministry leaders navigating their own or their congregants' journeys of faith reformation.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Markus Watson addresses the nervousness leaders feel about deconstruction and its potential impacts on their beliefs.
Scot McKnight highlights that leaders fear deconstruction because it threatens their job security, authority, and influence.
People undergoing deconstruction can disrupt church communities, creating anxiety about church teachings.
Markus Watson emphasizes the need for leaders to find safe spaces outside their church community for discussing deconstruction.
Scot McKnight suggests that churches should support and provide safe exploration spaces instead of trying to control questioning individuals.
Pastors face pressure to have all the answers, and questioning can trigger their insecurities about their role and authority.
Markus Watson discusses how churches need to shift their culture to become open to questioning and changes.
Scot McKnight reflects on his book "Invisible Jesus," addressing how deconstruction is not about abandoning faith but refocusing on Christ by removing non-essential elements.
A study cited by Scot McKnight shows that 86% of people who undergo deconstruction remain in the church, although they may change congregations.
Deconstruction resembles a personal Protestant Reformation where individuals reassess and personalize their faith journey.
Scot McKnight draws parallels between deconstruction and historical movements aimed at shedding unnecessary church practices or beliefs, focusing on continual reform.
Scot McKnight states that Jesus acted as a deconstructor, challenging the law within Judaism similar to the prophets.
The church's role should involve listening to deconstructors rather than fearing or dismissing them, promoting an adaptive leadership approach.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Scot McKnight:
- Substack
Books mentioned:
- Invisible Jesus, by Scot McKnight and Tommy Phillips
- A Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
- Revelation for the Rest of Us, by Scot McKnight and Cody Matchett
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

249. Balancing Tradition and Innovation in Church Leadership, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Dec 31, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson engage in a meaningful conversation about the delicate balance of honoring the "inherited church" while experimenting on the edges to drive adaptive change. Drawing from a quote by Shannon Kiser, who is deeply involved in adaptive leadership and fresh expressions of church, Tod explains how churches can innovate without discarding valuable traditions.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Shannon Kiser in Ep 177, Exploring New Forms of Church:

“We don’t have to give up what we love and cherish about the inherited church to also experiment on the edges.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Church leaders honor the inherited church by experimenting on the edges without abandoning tradition.
Adaptive leadership brings life to faith communities by evolving core practices to fit changing environments.
Teams conduct modest experiments on the fringes to introduce effective innovations into the church.
Effective change requires balancing respect for the past with openness to new approaches.
Congregations thrive by integrating new discoveries that cater to both historical and present needs.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

248. Ministry's Heavy Burdens and the Christmas Promise of Rest Dec 24, 2024

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In this special Christmas Eve episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Markus Watson takes a moment to share some heartfelt encouragement for those feeling the weight of ministry's demands. Reflecting on both personal and professional burdens, Markus reminds us of the importance of leaning on Jesus to find true rest and relief. By exploring the story of the shepherds, magi, and even King Herod, Markus illustrates how Jesus invites each of us to let go of our exhaustion and allow Him to help carry our burdens.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Pastors face a lot of pressure in preparing sermons, providing pastoral care, leading meetings, and handling administrative duties.
The constant demand for excellence in ministry, even during times of societal change, amplifies stress and feelings of responsibility.
Markus Watson emphasizes the added strain of personal burdens, describing his own experience caring for aging parents.
Life’s cumulative burdens, both personal and professional, contribute to a persistent feeling of exhaustion.
Despite exhaustion, love and care for congregants and loved ones remain a priority.
The host draws an analogy between the exhaustion of ministry workers and the biblical figures present at Jesus' birth.
Shepherds, magi, and the people of Israel felt weary from their own burdens.
Markus Watson points out that King Herod also experienced weariness, though he rejected the invitation of Jesus’ birth.
Jesus' words in Matthew 11 are an invitation for rest and relief.
Markus Watson concludes by encouraging listeners to allow Jesus to help carry their personal and ministry burdens, reassuring them that they are not alone.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

247. The Kingdom of God as Present Reality, a Quick conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Dec 17, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the concept of the kingdom of God as a way of life, rather than a distant place. Inspired by a powerful quote from Yolanda Solomon, they discuss the profound implications this understanding has for ministry leadership and personal discipleship. Discover how embracing God's will in the present moment can transform your leadership and community, and what it means to live out the reality of God's reign right here, right now.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Yolanda Solomon in Ep 232, Learning from Jesus:

"The kingdom that Jesus proclaims and the kingdom that Jesus embodies is not a place. It's a way of life."

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

246. Have We Forgotten to Pray? with Jeff Hoffmeyer Dec 10, 2024

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What if prayer wasn’t just a box to check off your to-do list, but a lifeline deeply integrated into every moment of your life and your leadership? Imagine navigating every challenge, every conflict, and every transition with an ongoing sense that God is with you.
Jeff Hoffmeyer is Vice President for Advancement and Resident Theologian for the Denver Institute for Faith and Work, and a teacher in the Doctor of Ministry program at Fuller Theological Seminary. In this episode, Jeff shares his insights on the significance of prayer in leadership, how to keep prayer practices fresh and meaningful, and how to integrate the Bible into your prayer life, turning it into a rich resource for your ministry.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Markus Watson introduces the concept of "praying without ceasing," questioning its feasibility and practical application.
Jeff Hoffmeyer suggests that "praying without ceasing" involves including God in every moment of daily life.
Prayer can be incorporated into transitions between tasks, making it a continuous practice.
Markus Watson compares prayer to a comfortable silence in relationships, emphasizing a connection without constant conversation.
Jeff Hoffmeyer highlights that prayer involves more than words, incorporating awareness and presence with God.
The Bible serves as a resource for ministry and prayer, guiding conversations with God and integrating scripture into prayers.
Markus Watson shares his experience with Lectio Divina, finding it more meaningful than quick Bible readings.
Jeff Hoffmeyer underscores the importance of prayer for leadership, even if it doesn't feel mastered.
Maintaining a connection with God through prayer helps leaders ground their identity in Christ amid challenges.
Jeff Hoffmeyer discusses the role of attention in leadership, advocating for understanding personal anxiety and others' motivations.
Jeff Hoffmeyer emphasizes the need to attend to the world's needs, whether as church leaders, business leaders, or parents.
Markus Watson appreciates the contemplative nature of Hoffmeyer's podcast, noting its thoughtful, longer conversations.
Jeff Hoffmeyer describes prayer as a "resource," helping leaders connect with the divine and make their work meaningful.
Prayer should be an integral part of everyday life, helping individuals notice the divine in daily routines.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

245. Standing in the Gap, a Quck Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Dec 03, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the essential role of pastors and spiritual leaders in "standing in the gap," inspired by a profound quote from Amy Peeler. They explore how leaders can support their communities by being present in times of crisis, offering intercessory prayer, and providing emotional and spiritual accompaniment. Through personal stories and leadership insights, they highlight the importance of not letting others face challenges alone and the powerful impact of embodying a pastoral presence during tough decisions and anxious moments.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Amy Peeler in Ep 224, Leadership Through the Lens of Hebrews:

"As a priest, as a pastor, we are called to stand in the gap for people. Right? That could be as simple as, we have the time and the resources to study God's word during the week so that, when the congregation comes in, we can share the fruit of that time that we've invested."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ministry leaders stand in the gap for their congregations, embodying both authority and empathy.
Pastors enrich their congregations by dedicating time to study God's word, offering spiritual insights in return.
Effective leaders accompany their team through anxious and challenging times, providing support and reassurance.
Spiritual leadership involves being present with people, especially in moments of crisis and decision-making.
Leaders foster a sense of community by ensuring no one feels alone in their burdens and responsibilities.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy Smith, author of Confessions of an Amateur Saint Nov 26, 2024

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Is leadership about enduring endless challenges without ever, y’know, faltering? Or is it about recognizing when to slow down, step back, acknowledge our weaknesses and reconnect with the God who calls us?
In this episode, Mandy Smith, author of Confessions of an Amateur Saint, talks about developing our capacity when ministry gets hard, the essential role of rest, and how we can find strength even in times of desperation.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mandy Smith underscores the necessity of recognizing burnout early and taking intentional breaks for spiritual reflection.
Mandy Smith reveals her practice of observing a Monday Sabbath, emphasizing the importance of uninterrupted rest in remembering spiritual purposes.
Challenges in ministry can expand one’s capacities if approached with discernment.
Mandy Smith emphasizes the importance of identifying the "true self" versus the "false self" in leadership roles.
The conversation touches on navigating unknowns in ministry, where traditional methods may not be effective anymore.
Mandy Smith discusses her routine of daily prayer for guidance, especially during challenging times in ministry.
Prayer serves as a crucial aspect of leadership, connecting leaders to God's guidance and renewal.
Markus Watson refers to the insights from Mandy’s book, The Vulnerable Pastor, underscoring the value of vulnerability in leadership.
Mandy Smith talks about the urgency felt due to declining church attendance, stressing a deeper reliance on prayer.
Personal and communal desperation in the church can lead to spiritual growth and greater reliance on God.
Mandy Smith explores the concept of "confession" as turning towards God, involving acknowledgment of thoughts and reaffirmation of faith.
Shifting from secular professionalism to Christian leadership reliance on God, Mandy Smith critiques the application of secular standards within church contexts.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Mandy Smith:
Books mentioned:
- Confessions of an Amateur Saint, by Mandy Smith
- The Vulnerable Pastor, by Mandy Smith
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

243. Including Young Voices in Leadership, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Nov 19, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger engage in an enlightening conversation exploring a profound quote by Efrem Smith on the evolving narrative of church communities. They discuss the critical role of the emerging generation in not just being part of the church's story, but actively shaping its future. The episode explores the importance of diverse perspectives, adaptive leadership, and the humility required to foster a truly inclusive and vibrant faith community.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Efrem Smith in Ep 222, Building a Multi-Inlusive Church:

“As the story of your church unfolds, is it obvious that the emerging generation is not only part of the story, but part of shaping the story that will be told?”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ministry leaders engage future generations by including their voices at the decision-making table.
Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the necessity for leaders to adopt a humble approach and be open to learning.
Markus Watson stresses the importance of diverse perspectives for a fuller understanding of God's calling.
Churches increase vitality by valuing spiritual maturity over age when selecting leaders.
Tod Bolsinger encourages leaders to focus on creating processes that foster deeper understanding and growth.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

242. Life and Leadership in the Fog, with Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton, authors of Life in Flux Nov 12, 2024

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We talk a lot about leading through uncertainty on this podcast. But in this episode, the emphasis will be on navigating uncertainty in our own lives. In this conversation, Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton, co-authors of Life in Flux, discuss the importance of "uncommon postures" when navigating the fog in life, building personal adaptive capacity, and the need to pause and listen in the midst of uncertainty.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Lisa Slayton challenges default behaviors and encourages developing uncommon postures to better support oneself.
Michaela O'Donnell emphasizes the need to embrace change rather than avoid it, recognizing that old methods won't work for future challenges.
Slayton identifies personal awakening catalysts as recognizing potential possibilities or facing pain and disruptions.
Adaptive work involves recognizing that past methods won't suffice for future challenges, according to Michaela O'Donnell.
The metaphor of a ship in the fog illustrates the need for intentional stillness in uncertain times.
Slayton describes how cutting the engine in a fog-bound boat is a counterintuitive but necessary action to regain direction.
Markus Watson reflects on personal experiences with uncertainty, realizing challenges can be embraced even when they are "unfigureoutable."
Slayton shares an experience with a church team and stresses the importance of exploration and adaptation.
Navigating ambiguity involves recognizing multiple paths forward, not just one clear solution, notes Michaela O'Donnell.
Leadership should shift from problem-solving to curiosity, embracing uncertainty and adaptive learning.
Markus Watson discusses the clarity of identity in understanding personal strengths and aligning roles accordingly.
The Enneagram aids in understanding personal and leadership styles amidst change, recognizing strengths and limits.
Lisa Slayton emphasizes the challenges pastors face due to excessive expectations and the need for managing these effectively.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Church Leadership Institute
De Pree Center for Leadership
Tamim Partners
LifeinFlux.co
Flourish San Diego
Books mentioned:
- Life in Flux, by Michaela O’Donnell and Lisa Slayton
Related Episodes:
- Episode 114: Meaningful Work, with Michaela O’Donnell
- Episode 48: Integrity and Coherence in Leadership, with Lisa Slayton

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

241. Leadership and Emotional Presence, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Nov 05, 2024

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Markus Watson chats with Tod Bolsinger about a profound quote from Gayle Beebe, President of Westmont College. They explore the significance of staying emotionally present with your organization, its people, and its mission, especially during crises. The conversation highlights the balance between gaining perspective ('balcony' view) and staying connected (‘dance floor’ engagement), essential for fostering trust and effective leadership. Perfect for those navigating the complexities of ministry leadership.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Gayle Beebe in Ep 220, Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis:

"You have to stay emotionally present to the organization, to the people in the organization, to the mission of the organization so that you can make adjustments that actually allow you to prevail."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ministry leaders must stay emotionally present to effectively lead organizations through crises.
Gayle Beebe emphasizes the importance of connecting with the mission and people of the organization.
Leaders need to balance the perspectives of the balcony (overall strategy) and the dance floor (emotional connection).
Building trust through emotional attunement accelerates change within an organization.
Leaders must acknowledge and manage their own emotions to make mission-focused decisions.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli Chi, author of The Wise Leader Oct 29, 2024

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How do we cultivate an environment where transparency and open communication becomes the norm rather than the exception?

In this episode, Uli Chi, author of The Wise Leader, brings a wealth of experience in business and church leadership to discuss how we can foster open communication, why humility in leadership is so critical, and the importance of pursuing a "wisdom from above" in our leadership.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Wisdom from above is God's wisdom, a comprehensive approach to life that is beyond just spiritual or intellectual understanding.
Uli Chi emphasizes the importance of creating a culture where honesty is welcomed, allowing team members to express their true thoughts to leadership.
Uli shares a personal experience where he sought external consultants to understand issues within his company, highlighting the difficulty in getting people to speak candidly.
Leaders must create normalized spaces for open and honest conversations.
Wisdom requires a communal approach; it is developed through relationships and shared experiences rather than in isolation.
Uli Chi discusses his 50-year affiliation with his community, emphasizing the value of long-term relationships.
Markus Watson expresses admiration for Uli Chi's book, "The Wise Leader," and encourages reading it for insights on becoming a wise leader.
Uli Chi underscores humility as fundamental to wise leadership, viewing leadership as a role of service, not dominance.
Humility involves using power for the benefit of others, reflecting a servant mindset preached by Jesus.
Leaders must recognize human finiteness and fallibility, accepting that they don't know everything and can be wrong.
Directive leadership involves knowing when to give directions after gathering input, which is often essential in pastoral roles.
Uli Chi criticizes "heroic leadership" that elevates leaders to a godlike status, as it can stifle open communication and genuine feedback.
Effective leaders create safe spaces for diverse voices, reflecting the model of shared wisdom.
Uli Chi values contrarian voices and finds it beneficial to have people, like his wife, who challenge his ideas, enhancing decision-making and leadership effectiveness.
Uli Chi concludes that understanding and knowing something truly requires loving it, aligning with the concept of the epistemology of love.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Uli Chi:
- De Pree Center for Leadership
Books mentioned:
- The Wise Leader, by Uli Chi
Related episodes:
- 46. Inviting the Real, with Esther Lightcap Meek
- 58. Communion with Reality, with Esther Lightcap Meek

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239. When Politics Enter the Pew, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Oct 22, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the immense pressures faced by pastors today, as articulated by Tim Alberta. Tim highlighted how congregants increasingly expect pastors to function beyond their traditional roles, turning them into part-time pundits and cultural commentators on a myriad of contentious issues ranging from masking and vaccines to abortion and trans rights. Markus and Tod examine the challenges this poses, especially during heightened political seasons, and explore strategies for pastors to manage these pressures healthily, emphasizing the importance of honesty, mission focus, and relational support.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tim Alberta in Ep 234, Political Power and American Evangelicalism:

"What I kept coming back to was this immense pressure on pastors to be more than a pastor. In other words, their congregants in so many cases are looking to them in this moment saying, 'Okay. So, what about masking? What about the vaccine? What about the trans issue? What about abortion? What about, I mean, about everything.'... They start to view their pastor as sort of a part-time pastor, but also a kind of part-time pundit, a part-time cultural commentator, part-time prognosticator of world events."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Pastors face immense pressure to address a wide range of social and political issues.
Congregants often expect pastors to act as experts beyond their theological training.
Effective leadership includes honestly admitting when answers are unclear.
Addressing political tensions in congregations requires a commitment to the mission of following Jesus.
Building strong relationships and seeking support helps pastors navigate crises and maintain integrity.

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238. Lead with Less Anxiety, with Alan Fadling, author of A Non-Anxious Life Oct 15, 2024

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Is it possible to lead a congregation without being consumed by anxiety and stress? How can we as ministry leaders manage the pressures and expectations we carry while maintaining a sense of peace and lightness?
In this episode, Alan Fadling, author of A Non-Anxious Life, unpacks how ministry leaders can navigate anxiety by creating a supportive network of friends and mentors, understanding God’s joyful nature, and how these realities can transform our personal life and pastoral leadership.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Alan Fadling advises not bringing personal anxiety into a congregation but sharing it with friends, mentors, therapists, and spiritual directors.
Alan Fadling highlights that his experience with managing anxiety has been supported by people outside his immediate church community.
Referencing Lewis Smedes' Shame and Grace, Markus Watson illustrates how acceptance from others can help people feel less anxious and more acceptable.
Discussing his book about anxiety with a church small group, Alan Fadling emphasizes the value of having outside perspectives to reassure one's concerns.
Understanding God's joyful nature can lead to personal transformation and fuller acceptance of grace.
Markus Watson relates a story about providing comfort rather than judgment, illustrating how fear and anxiety are addressed in a supportive manner.
Categorizing anxiety as a sin is unhelpful, Fadling emphasizes, especially from a pastoral perspective.
Referencing Eugene Peterson's interpretation from Philippians 4, Alan Fadling focuses on replacing anxiety with peace through prayer.
We should recognize God's presence in anxious moments through prayer and reflection rather than avoid anxiety.
Inspired by Dallas Willard, Fadling shares a personal practice of using scripture to find peace amidst anxiety.
Psalms of Lament can help engage with and express anxiety while relying on God's support.
Journaling with honesty, as practiced by Alan Fadling, serves as a personal dialogue with God and reinforces that God cares and one is not alone.
Fadling’s early ministry concerns included whether congregants liked him, stemming from personal insecurity.
Discussing a "recognition deficit," Alan Fadling notes the mistake of seeking validation from congregations instead of from God.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Alan Fadling:
- Unhurriedliving.com
- Unhurried Living Podcast
Books mentioned:
- A Non-Anxious Life, by Alan Fadling
- The Wounded Healer, by Henri Nouwen
- Shame and Grace, by Lewis Smedes
- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Lewis Smedes
Related Episodes:
- The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins
- Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff Crosby

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

237. Biblical Frameworks for a Polarized World, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Oct 08, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the importance of framing for church leaders, particularly in the context of political polarization. Drawing on a quote from Andrew Hanauer, they explore how providing a Biblical framework to congregants can shape their understanding of the world and mitigate the influence of external, often divisive, narratives. Through practical advice and insightful examples, they illustrate how asking the right questions can lead to transformative perspectives grounded in faith.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Andrew Hanauer in Ep 226, Tackling Toxic Polarization in Your Church:

"If you don't help your congregants have a framework for understanding the world around them, they will get that framework from somewhere else."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ministry leaders can frame questions to help congregants see the world through the eyes of Jesus.
Leaders should encourage their congregants to develop a biblical framework for understanding the world.
Leaders should prompt curiosity through questions instead of giving lectures.
Leaders can use personal stories to help congregants empathize and rethink their preconceived notions.
Congregants will find alternative, potentially harmful frameworks if leaders do not provide a biblical one.

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236. Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church, with David Quel Oct 01, 2024

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How can our churches reach out to families with autistic members in such a way that the Gospel is good news for them? And how might we need to adapt the way we do church in order to be good news for those with autism in their families?
Dr. David Quel, adjunct professor at Wesley Theological Seminary--and father to three autistic sons--reveals strategies for creating a welcoming environment in our churches for families with autistic members, how to adapt our ministries to meet their needs, and the emotional and spiritual journey of parenting autistic children.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

David Quel shares how he and his wife discovered that not just one, but all three of his sons were autistic.
It was difficult for David Quel and his wife to find the kind of family and church support they needed as a family with three non-high-functioning autistic children.
David Quel underscores the essential need for emotional, spiritual, mental, and compassionate awareness of autism in church ministry.
David Quel shares a story about his church setting up a sensory room designed specifically for children with autism.
This sensory room included items like big fluffy pillows, beanbags, and sensory toys to ensure children's safety.
David Quel discusses challenges and solutions in creating worship services tailored for children with autism.
Traditional formats like responsive readings and long sermons are challenging for children with autism.
David Quel highlights the need for music that is more upbeat to engage children with autism compared to traditional hymns.
Efforts by David’s church to create separate worship services showed significant commitment but also revealed the struggle to let go of traditional practices.
David Quel recommends the book Autism and Your Church by Barbara J. Newman for further guidance.
Interviewing families to understand their specific needs and triggers is crucial to contextual ministry.
Identifying willing volunteers with relevant experience or a willingness to learn can make a significant difference when adapting your church ministry to families with autism.
David Quel emphasizes seeing individuals with autism as God’s creations, deserving of love and support.
Steps churches can take to support families with autism:
- Set up sensory rooms
- Tailor specialized worship services
- Interview and understand families with autism
- Identify and train volunteers
- Promote inclusivity

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

BeADisciple.com
- Autism and the Church Part 1
- Autism and the Church Part 2
Wesley Theological Seminary
Books mentioned:
- Autism and Your Church, by Barbara J. Newman
Related Episodes:
- Tackling Adaptive Challenges in Your Church, with Angie Ward
- Exploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon Kiser

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235. Exercising Power with Integrity, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Sep 24, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore the concept of power within the framework of discipleship and adaptive leadership, inspired by a quote from Michael Rhodes. They discuss how power, when used responsibly, can prevent harm and support the vulnerable, such as orphans, immigrants, and widows. The conversation delves into the transformative potential of Jesus' use of power, emphasizing that true leadership requires the release and sharing of power to foster justice and love. They conclude with reflections on the societal challenges of redefining power in ways that uplift and protect the most vulnerable in the community.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Michael Rhodes in Ep 200, The Justice Feast:

“How does our discipleship help us become people who faithfully exercise power in community, particularly on behalf of the orphan, the immigrant, and the widow?”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger explores the concept of power and its importance in preventing evil and harm.
Discipleship involves using power to protect the most vulnerable, such as orphans, immigrants, and widows.
Adaptive leadership emphasizes transformation and inclusivity, drawing from many voices within a community.
Jesus demonstrates ultimate power by sacrificing himself for others, illustrating love and justice in the kingdom of God.
Effective leadership requires adapting and redefining traditional views of power and authority.

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234. Political Power and American Evangelicalism, with Tim Alberta, author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory Sep 17, 2024

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Here in the U.S. the impact of the election and the campaigns of Donald Trump and Kamala Harris are inescapable.
In this episode, Tim Alberta, author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism, discusses the unsettling trend of political polarization in the church, the role of pastors in responding to the pressure to reclaim a "Christian America," and the importance of having diverse relationships as we navigate this season of polarization.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tim Alberta shares his story of being criticized for his political views while at his father's funeral.
Tim Alberta expresses concern over the perceived decline of "Christian America."
Alberta warns about the losses incurred when churches self-select into narrow ideological spaces.
Diverse relationships are necessary for spiritual growth and addressing complex issues.
Markus Watson mentions Allen Hilton and Andrew Hanauer’s organizations working to address political polarization. These organizations bring different churches together to facilitate conversations and humanize each other.
Alberta discusses how American Christians often view the U.S. as a nation set apart or a new Israel in covenant with God. This belief leads to a conflation of defending America with defending God.
Some Christians view political opponents as cultural and spiritual adversaries, treating political warfare as spiritual warfare.
There seems to be a fear among evangelicals of losing status, indoctrination of children, and being targeted by the government.
Alberta discusses the shift from a culture sympathetic to Christian ideals to one perceived as hostile, creating a siege mentality.
There seems to be a sense of entitlement within the evangelical community, akin to the belief of the ancient people of Israel..
Tim Alberta highlights the difficulty for Christians to relate to scriptural suffering due to comfort and wealth in America.
Some Christians compromise their virtues to reclaim a "Christian America," engaging in unethical behavior for a perceived greater good.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Tim Alberta:
- www.bytimalberta.com
- The Atlantic
- Twitter/X - @TimAlberta
Books mentioned:
- The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, by Tim Alberta
- American Carnage, by Tim Alberta
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

233. Aligning with God's Work in the World, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Sep 10, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore how to discern and join in what God is doing in the world. They discuss the importance of humility, recognizing God's ongoing work beyond the church, and adopting practical spiritual disciplines. Tod shares personal practices, like evening prayers of gratitude and a mindset that sees God's activity through the night, to better align with God’s work. They emphasize listening to both God and others to understand the broader context of God's presence and action.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tim Soerens in Ep 204, How to Cultivate Presence in Your Community:

“What is God up to? And how do I join in it? And what are the practices and postures and prompts that we need to keep asking ourselves in order to join in what God's doing?”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod advises starting the day with the mindset that God has already been at work throughout the night.
Tim Soerens' quote emphasizes the need to discern what God is doing rather than trying to get God to join in our own plans.
Markus encourages listening to the people in our communities to understand their hopes and fears.
Tod highlights the importance of praying for God's kingdom to come on earth as it already exists in heaven.
Markus reframes the perspective of a megachurch to see itself as a small part of the larger body of Christ.

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232. Learning from Jesus, with Yolanda Solomon, author of Discipleship as Holy Collaboration Sep 03, 2024

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How does Jesus go about transforming individual lives and entire societies? And what role do we play in that work of transformation?
Yolanda Solomon, author of Discipleship as Holy Collaboration, helps us get clarity on these questions as she shares her insights on how to build a nurturing community in the Church, the challenges of modern discipleship, and the importance of addressing marginalized groups through a radically inclusive kingdom perspective.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Yolanda Solomon discusses the importance of collaboration and companionship in the Christian faith.
Hebrews 10 underlines the importance of being known and spurring one another on to good works in discipleship.
Markus Watson and Yolanda Solomon discuss the challenges of leadership today and how Jesus' teachings can guide leaders to serve and esteem those most margnalized.
Discipleship is about followers of Jesus following in his footsteps, learning from him, and being invited into a new community of divine love to live and love like Jesus and continue his mission on earth.
Discipleship is a holy collaboration with Jesus and involves empowering individuals through the Holy Spirit to imitate Jesus.
Yolanda Solomon believes there is a discipleship problem in the church due to church hurt, the hierarchical church structure, and the misconception that discipleship is about behavior modification.
She admits her past attempts at discipleship focused on modifying people's behavior, but she has since shifted to a discipleship strategy grounded in Jesus' educational approach.
Yolanda Solomon highlights different ways of teaching and learning, mentioning how Jesus involves his disciples in the miracles he performs.
Disciple-focused education should include practical involvement, such as Jesus' example of telling the disciples to feed the five thousand.
Markus Watson and Yolanda Solomon emphasize the role of the Holy Spirit in heart transformation.
Both Yolanda and Markus express the importance of addressing systemic oppression and social injustice.
Yolanda Solomon shares a story about Jesus' forgiveness and its impact on systemic oppression, emphasizing that societal injustice affects both the oppressed and the oppressor.
Yolanda Solomon highlights Jesus' rejection of worldly power and his call for sacrificial, inclusive love, underscoring the need for both heart and structural change in society.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Yolanda Solomon:
- www.yolandasolomon.site
- Instagram - @yolanda.solomon.bk
Books mentioned:
- Discipleship as Holy Collaboration, by Yolanda Solomon
- Kingdom, Church, and World, by Hoqard A. Snyder
Related episodes:
The Muppets, “She Drives Me Crazy” music v

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231. Navigating Grief and Life Transitions, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Aug 27, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger unpack a poignant quote from Adam McHugh, discussing the often-overlooked grief experienced during life transitions such as career changes and identity shifts. They reflect on Adam's personal journey from pastoral ministry to becoming a wine sommelier, emphasizing how letting go of deeply ingrained identities can be a difficult yet necessary process for embracing new seasons of life. The conversation underscores the importance of grief in these transitions and challenges the notion that Christians should always be joyful, highlighting that genuine grief prepares the way for new beginnings and deeper hope.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Adam McHugh in Ep 208, Letting Go in Leadership to Move Forward in Life:
“You know, we talk about grief when you lose a loved one or when you lose something very specific. But there's a real grieving process, I think, that comes along with life transition, with career loss, with job loss, with identity loss."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Adam McHugh emphasizes the importance of grieving life transitions to move forward.
Tod Bolsinger highlights that Christians often struggle with grief, favoring joy instead
Tod says letting go of identity is difficult but necessary for embracing new life chapters.
Markus Watson points out that Christians tend to skip over the grieving of Holy Saturday.
Tod asserts that genuine grief prepares us for the new promises God holds for us.

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230. The Power of an 8-word Mission Statement, with Tod Bolsinger Aug 20, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger, Executive director of the Church Leadership Institute, discusses how to maintain a commitment to your mission even in the face of resistance. He also unpacks the importance of trust in leadership, as well as how to craft and use a powerful mission statement guide you in your church’s or organization’s decision-making.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger introduces the "Disagree and commit" concept, highlighting its importance in leadership.
Leaders need to earn trust for effective mission adherence.
Trust alone isn't transformation, but foundational for it.
Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the necessity of investing in transformation over merely relying on trust.
Trust and transformation are connected; transformation involves investing trust.
Tod Bolsinger discusses his series of four books on ministry leadership, addressing common leadership mistakes.
The first book, "How Not to Waste a Crisis," tackles the mistake of outworking the changing world.
Markus Watson shares his church's challenge in pleasing crucial stakeholders during change.
Tod Bolsinger stresses that organizations should thrive in crises, not just survive.
Tod Bolsinger explains the "disagree and commit" approach as essential for leadership teams.
Mission statements should be rooted in the church's context and community.
Clear, 8-word mission statements with verb, target, and impact are vital for decision-making.
Tod Bolsinger explains the significance of verbs, targets, and impacts in mission statements.
Good leaders rally stakeholders together for a bigger cause, but can fall into the trap of making decisions to keep everyone happy.
Mission statements should be tools for making decisions, not just taglines.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Tod Bolsinger:
- Church Leadership Institute
- Fuller Theological Seminary
Books mentioned:
- How Not to Waste a Crisis: Quit Trying Harder, by Tod Bolsinger
- Invest in Transformation: Quit Relying on Trust, by Tod Bolsinger
- Leading Through Resistance: Quit Pushing Back, by Tod Bolsinger
- The Mission Always Wins: Quit Appeasing Stakeholders, by Tod Bolsinger
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

229. The Fear-Driven Church, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Aug 13, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss a quote from episode 216 with guests Brad Strawn and Warren Brown. The quote highlights the perception that contemporary Christianity in the United States is more known for what it opposes than for what it supports. Tod Bolsinger explores this phenomenon, attributing it to the psychological tendency to focus on fears rather than potential gains. The discussion delves into how this fear-based mindset influences church leadership and community actions, emphasizing the need for churches to rally around positive and constructive goals rather than being driven by anxiety and opposition.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Brad Strawn in Ep 216, Overcoming ‘Puny’ Spirituality:

"I think one of the sad things about the state of contemporary Christianity in the United States is that we're known for, not what we do, but what we're against."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Brad Strawn's quote highlights how contemporary Christianity focuses more on what it opposes than what it supports.
Tod Bolsinger explains that fear motivates people to reject potential gains, influencing church behavior.
The conversation reveals that pastors often worry about negative outcomes, leading congregations to prioritize protection over potential.
Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss how anxiety drives leadership to control rather than inspire.
Tod Bolsinger calls for Christians to unite around positive community impacts rather than opposition to unfavorable elements.

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228. Dismantling the Myth of the White God, with Grace Ji-Sun Kim, author of When God Became White Aug 06, 2024

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Grace Ji-Sun Kim, theology professor at Earlham School of Religion and the author of When God Became White, discusses how cultural forces throughout history have shaped the portrayal of both God and Jesus as white males, and how that portrayal has hurt our ability to be the leaders we need to be.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Grace Ji-Sun Kim discusses the historical influence of the Roman Empire in shaping the perception of a white male God in Christianity.
Cultural and societal forces led to the dominant image of a white male deity.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim suggests reimagining God within different cultural contexts to challenge this prevailing narrative.
Artists portraying Jesus in various ethnicities counteract the dominant white male imagery.
Portraying God in diverse ways can be valuable and necessary.
Markus Watson shares an example of a teacher's experiment to illustrate that race is a social construct, not a biological one.
The conversation touches on the harmful implications of using race as a biological concept to assert superiority.
According to Grace Ji-Sun Kim the feminine naming of Hagia Sophia as holy wisdom holds significant importance in church history.
Diverse voices are crucial for leading change within churches.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim suggests that white people should diversify their reading, podcast listening, and sermon choices for a deeper understanding.
Markus Watson recounts his childhood exposure to a white Jesus, reflecting on its impact.
Grace Ji-Sun Kim emphasizes the need to challenge and critique the prevailing image of a white male God.
Practical steps for churches include critically analyzing liturgy, deeply engaging with scripture, and welcoming diverse perspectives for a fuller understanding of God.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Grace Ji-Sun Kim:
Books mentioned:
- When God Became White, by Grace Ji-Sun Kim
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

227. Effective Team Management, a Quick Conversation withTod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jul 30, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss a quote from Mike Bonem, which underscores the importance of empowering team members to fulfill their roles. They explore the necessity of recruiting the right people and then giving them the freedom to execute their tasks effectively. Tod emphasizes the value of clarity in mission and supportive leadership, allowing team members to excel in their areas of expertise without micromanagement. He also introduces the concept of "the commander's intent" to highlight the balance between freedom and direction in team management.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Mike Bonem in Ep 218, Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership:

“If you’re gonna recruit the right people to be on the team, then you need to release them to do the work that God has called them to do.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:
Mike Bonem's quote emphasizes the importance of recruiting the right people and then empowering them to fulfill their roles.
Tod Bolsinger advises that effective leaders clearly communicate their mission to their team members.
A good leader recruits talented individuals and grants them autonomy.
Leaders should provide clarity and support to their team members.
Leaders should hire people who are experts in their roles and trust them to perform their tasks independently.

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226. Tackling Toxic Polarization in Your Church, with Allen Hilton and Andrew Hanauer Jul 23, 2024

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Allen Hilton, Executive Director of A House United, and Andrew Hanauer, CEO of One America Movement, bring a wealth of experience and practical insight into how our churches can navigate political and cultural division, especially during this very divisive election season. We explore their strategies for "courageous conversations" and the importance of understanding and empathy in overcoming polarization—crucial topics for any ministry leader aiming to foster a congregation of love and unity.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

It’s important for churches to address moments of violence, such as the recent assassination attempt on Donald Trump. People need spiritual leadership in these times.
Andrew Hanauer highlights the necessity of individuals taking personal responsibility for their role in division before blaming others.
Allen Hilton points out that mingling across divides and having extended contact with others can reduce tendencies to blame.
Markus Watson shares his trepidation about discussing divisive incidents within the church, recognizing the need despite potential conflicts.
Allen Hilton insists that churches should engage in political conversations as politics profoundly impacts everyone’s lives.
The church’s role, according to Andrew Hanauer, is to provide a framework for understanding the world, not avoiding political engagement.
Andrew Hanauer asserts that facilitating tough conversations within congregations demonstrates a community's strength and unity.
Andrew Hanauer promotes the value of diverse opinions in faith communities to build resilience in times of societal crises.
Allen Hilton believes churches have a duty to form individuals “off the spot” who can navigate and mitigate polarization.
Andrew Hanauer encourages the practice of praying for people we might consider enemies, which can transform our viewpoint towards them.
Faith communities have the opportunity to model unity and provide spiritual meaning during times of loneliness and disconnection.
The conversation concludes with Watson, Hilton, and Hanauer emphasizing the importance of self-reflection, responsible voting, and loving both neighbors and enemies to combat political polarization in our society.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

225. God's Work in the In-Between, a Quick Conversation withTod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jul 16, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the importance of transitions in both individual and organizational life, as highlighted by a quote from Terry Walling. They explore the concept of the "in between," likening it to the liminal space where significant transformation occurs. Bolsinger emphasizes that these periods of uncertainty are essential for faith and growth, encouraging leaders to embrace learning and personal journey as they guide their communities through times of change. The episode explores the challenges of these transitions and provides insights on how leaders can navigate them effectively.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Terry Walling in Ep 212, Unlearning Old Paradigms for Kingdom Leadership:

“Transitions are the most important moments in an individual’s life and in an organization’s life because God does some of his greatest work in the in-between.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Leaders must embrace the journey of learning to move forward effectively.
Churches need to let go of immediate stability to experience transformational growth.
Leaders should engage in their own continuous spiritual journey to inspire others.
Congregations often resist the discomfort of transitional periods but must persevere.
Effective interim leadership requires guiding churches through the unknown with faith.

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224. Leadership Through the Lens of Hebrews, with Amy Peeler, author of Hebrews: Commentaries for Christian Formation Jul 09, 2024

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Amy Peeler, author of Hebrews: Commentaries for Christian Formation, shares her insights on leadership through the lens of the book of Hebrews, drawing parallels between Jesus’ steadfast priesthood and the role of modern pastors and leaders. Her reflections on enduring hope, resilience, and the practicalities of leading a post-COVID church are valuable for all who are in ministry leadership.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Amy Peeler explains the concept of loss and how it impacts the community when leaders pass away.
Churches feel the impact of the loss of beloved mentors and leaders of faith.
Amy Peeler emphasizes the comfort that Jesus Christ offers as an unwavering and stable leader.
Amy Peeler emphasizes the need to navigate through confusion, exhaustion, and resistance in the wilderness, offering advice for leaders leading through change.
The famous faith chapter, Hebrews 11, emphasizes enduring hope in God and faith as the foundation of good leadership.
Amy Peeler highlights the imagery of holding on to Jesus as a boat is tethered to its anchor from Hebrews 6, emphasizing resting in Jesus' strength when things are difficult in our leadership.
Humility and service are so important in leadership, even when being a pastor feels costly.
Amy Peeler explores the importance of helping congregations navigate loss and resistance.
Amy Peeler examines the practical instructions for leaders and the principles for leadership found throughout the letter of Hebrews.
Hebrews' message includes the call for leaders to keep trusting in God, especially during persecution.
Pastors and priests, according to Amy Peeler, are mediators, similar to Jesus' role as High Priest.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Amy Peeler:
- www.amypeeler.com
- Wheaton College
Books mentioned:
- Hebrews: Commentaries for Christian Formation, by Amy Peeler
- Women and the Gender of God, by Amy Peeler
Related episodes:
- Power, Vulnerability, Rest, with Tod Bolsinger
- Leading Like Jesus, with Ken Blanchard

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223. Discovering Where God is Already at Work, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jul 02, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger engage in a discerning conversation about the leadership and mission implications of the idea that God is already pesent in every culture. They consider the respect and humility required when entering new cultures and relationships, especially with the understanding that God's presence and work precede us. Through personal stories and theological insights, they explore the posture of listening and joining in what God is already doing, rather than imposing our preconceptions.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Justin Bailey in Episode 173, The Art of Interpreting Culture:

“You never go to another culture where God is not already present and at work.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

God actively engages in all cultures even before we arrive, as highlighted by Justin Bailey's insight that one never enters a culture where God isn't already present and working.
Leaders enhance their missions by respectfully listening first, acknowledging God's presence in every context, as emphasized by Tod Bolsinger's agreement with Justin Bailey.
Christian engagement with others thrives when it begins with humility and recognition of God's preexisting activity, instead of approaching with a colonial mindset of bringing God to an empty space.
Spiritual encounters flourish when the approach is invitational and inclusive, as demonstrated by Markus Watson's open communion table welcoming all individuals to participate.
Adaptive leadership calls for joining in what God is already doing within a community, rather than imposing a preconceived agenda, thus resonating with an organic and responsive mode of spiritual leadership.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

222. Building a Multi-Inclusive Church, with Efrem Smith and Dan Kreiss, authors of Church for Everyone Jun 25, 2024

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Efrem Smith and Dan Kreiss, the authors of Church For Everyone: Building a Multi-Inclusive Community, explore the importance of multi-inclusivity in church leadership, the need to empower young people in decision-making, and the steps required to break down socio-economic and cultural barriers within our faith communities.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Creating spaces and processes for the emerging generation to have voice and participate in decision-making within multi-inclusive churches is crucial.
In the Evangelical Covenant Church, the 6-fold test for multi-ethnic ministry includes population, participation, and power as key aspects to consider.
Efforts to create spaces for feedback and participation are a key step in promoting inclusion and diversity in churches.
Efrem Smith emphasizes the need to intentionally hire diverse staff and involve the emerging generation in shaping the church's narrative.
Dan Kreiss points out that long-standing churches with deep traditions face greater challenges and need intentional discomfort and leadership formation to create a multi-inclusive community.
According to Efrem Smith and Dan Kreiss, the diverse and multi-ethnic nature of the younger generation is not reflected in many church contexts on Sunday mornings.
Dan Kreiss points out that building relationships with those outside his predominantly Caucasian church is essential to foster inclusion and understanding.
Efrem Smith underscores the need to eliminate excuses for young people to dismiss the church and to create a multi-inclusive community that reflects the diversity found in other aspects of their lives.
God can use individuals of different generations to advance his kingdom, as demonstrated by the biblical stories of David, Esther, Abraham, and Josiah.
The letters of Paul emphasize the importance of a multi-inclusive, Christ-centered community, reflecting the multicultural and intergenerational nature of the church.
According to Dan Kreiss, starting the journey towards a multi-inclusive church involves intentional efforts to build relationships with diverse communities.
Dan Kreiss encourages pastors to surround themselves with others in the community for support and accountability.
Efrem Smith says the move from stigmatizing the younger generation to becoming friends and missionaries to them is essential.
Navigating the tensions between different generations is part of maintaining an intergenerational and diverse church environment.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Efrem Smith:
- Mid-town Church
- Influential Global Ministries
- Instagram - @efrem.smith
Dan Kreiss:
- Roswell Presbyterian Church
- Instagram - @dan_kreiss
Books mentioned:
- Church for Everyone, by Efrem Smith and Dan Kreiss
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

221. Miroslav Volf's Take on Moving Forward, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jun 18, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to this conversation, challenging us to resist nostalgia and the allure of a past era—like the 1960s, when the church thrived in a very different context. Reflecting on a quote from Miroslav Volf, Bolsinger, together with Markus Watson, contemplates the dangers of yearning for what no longer exists and the pressing need to adapt to a future we can't fully see yet.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from MIroslav Volf in Episode 169, TThe Materiality of God’s Mission:

“We can’t orient ourselves around the old world; it would be dumb for us to do that. And we don’t know how to orient ourselves with a world that hasn’t yet been born.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Many of our churches represent an "old world" paradigm, one led by experienced elders rather reminiscent of past church glories.
Clinging to past success impedes churches from effectively engaging with and inhabiting the emerging world.
Tod Bolsinger underscores the futility of solving new challenges with outdated solutions, advocating for a learning-oriented approach to leadership.
Markus Watson acknowledges that navigating without a clear map of the future requires faith and adaptability.
Bolsinger insists that the mission isn't to preserve the church but to pass the faith forward, adapting to the world's evolving needs.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

220. Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis, with Gayle Beebe, author of The Crucibles that Shape Us Jun 11, 2024

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In ministry leadership, how we respond to crises significantly impacts not just our journey, but also the communities we serve. Painful experiences like this can be crucibles that mold our character, highlight the importance of emotional presence, and underscore the need for institutional stamina—how do we get through this together?

Gayle Beebe is the president of Westmont College and author of The Crucibles That Shape Us. In this conversation, and he shares some of the ways he has had to lead through tragedy and crisis. He unpacks concepts like competing commitments which are exposed in times of crisis. He talks about the importance of having processing partners in our leadership. And he shares some of the profound lessons he learned from both the personal and institutional tragedies that he has had to lead through.

This episode's highlights include:

The seven crucibles from Gayle Beebe’s book are:
- The Crucible of Missed Meaning
- The Crucible of Enduring Challenge
- The Crucible of Human Treachery
- The Crucible of Awakened Moral Conscience
- The Crucible of Social Conflict
- The Crucible of Human Suffering
- The Crucible of Personal Choice
Gayle Beebe discusses how individuals experience competing commitments in both personal and social contexts and the significant consequences individuals face when failing to balance competing commitments effectively.
Personal losses and tragedies can shape leaders, developing their empathy and perspectives.
Gayle Beebe reflects on how challenging experiences have deepened his understanding of God and reshaped his meaning in life.
Leaders feel great pressure to maintain composure; thus the need for having a processing partner.
Gayle Beebe reflects on Westmont College's response to the events of 2020, including the murder of George Floyd.
Westmont College leaned into its existing commitments to justice, reconciliation, and diversity, focusing on building partnerships with those already engaged in work related to justice and diversity.
Westmont College sought out and hired diverse faculty and staff to promote inclusivity, engaging in comprehensive training for the board, executive team, faculty, staff, and students.
The discussion highlights key strategies like treating everyone with integrity, care, and respect.
Westmont College identified bridge builders from minority populations to enhance community relationships.
Gayle Beebe talks about handling emotionally devastating events, such as natural disasters, with spiritual strength and he discusses the learnings and resilience he developed from facing institutional crises, including the wildfires that impacted Westmont's campus.

Relevant Resources and Links:

Gayle Beebe
- Email - president@westmont.edu
Westmont College
Books mentioned:
- The Crucibles that Shape Us, by Gayle Beebe
- Pensées, by Blaise Pascal
- Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman
Related episodes:
- Embracing Limitations as a Ministry Resource, with Tod Bolsinger
- Addressing Un

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219. The Role of Joy in Effective Church Leadership, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jun 04, 2024

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This episode explores the critical role of joy in fostering deep connections within our communities. As Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson consider how an atmosphere of joy can be crafted and communicated through our actions, they discuss how this translates to effective ministry and church leadership.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jim Wilder in Episode 179, The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation:

"In order to get people to attach to each other you have to create an environment of joy where people are glad to be together."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Leaders must foster an environment of joy to help community members form strong bonds with each other.
Authentic joy in relationships emerges when individuals feel truly valued and important to one another.
Communicating warm, genuine excitement through physical presence bolsters connections within a community.
Instilling a sense of joyful belonging serves as the foundation for transformative life experiences.
Embracing challenges becomes enriching when undertaken alongside a community that cares deeply for one another.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

218. Trust, Teams, and Transformational Leadership, with Mike Bonem, author of The Art of Leading Change May 23, 2024

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Strong sermons, pastoral care and counseling, leading Bible studies. These are all really important for effective ministry leadership. But leading a church or organization is more than just that, isn’t it?
In this episode, Mike Bonem--consultant, coach, and author of The Art of Leading Change--offers invaluable insights into how trust, effective team-building, and adept communication can transform your leadership and help you navigate the complexities of ministry.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mike Bonem highlights the importance of trust in leadership, emphasizing that people are unlikely to give 110% if they don't trust their leader.
Markus Watson notes that trust has different dimensions and can erode gradually through unfulfilled commitments and unmet expectations.
Trust is built through follow-through on commitments and investing in relational components.
When there is trust within a congregation, people are more likely to give the benefit of the doubt, get involved in initiatives, and commit to change.
Trust is about being trustworthy as a person, not just doing things to gain trust.
Manipulation by leaders is easily detected, underscoring the necessity of integrity.
Mike Bonem discusses the importance of building strong teams to handle heavy loads and accomplish needed tasks.
Building a strong team involves intentionally enlisting different perspectives and gifts.
It is important to include people who bring different perspectives in the planning stages.
Mike Bonem elaborates on the value of getting different perspectives and gifts in the room for effective team building.
Markus Watson reflects on his own experience of leading change in a church amid the pandemic, highlighting how difficult it was.
Mike Bonem emphasizes the importance of incorporating business practices into pastoral work to improve leadership in congregations.
Mike Bonem and Markus Watson discuss key principles for leading change, including leading with trust, recognizing the importance of strong teams, and understanding that resistors are not the enemy.
Mike Bonem’s Fuller Equip online course "The Business of Ministry" provides fundamental training for pastors in areas such as finance, HR, and church business.
The first module of Mike Bonem’s course addresses the debate on whether the church should adopt business practices to ensure good stewardship of resources.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Mike Bonem:
- Website – mikebonem.com
Business of Ministry online course
Books mentioned:
- The Art of Leading Change, by Mike Bonem
- Leading from the Second Chair, by Mike Bonem
- Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership, by Ruth Haley Barton
- Sacred Rhythms, by Ruth Haley Barton
- Good to Great, by Jim Collins
Related episodes:
- How Did God Intend Us to Experience Sabbath?

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217. Holding on or Venturing Forth, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 21, 2024

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger reflect on their passion for exploration as an essential element of leadership, discussing the current crisis where the church often resists change and clings to the past rather than venturing into the unknown. Together, they explore the challenges in embracing exploration within the church, examine the role faith plays in embarking on new journeys, and contemplate how our structures often dissuade us from the very essence of adventure that following Jesus entails.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Dwight Gibson in Episode 25, Organizational Change and the Way of Exploration:

“As people of faith I would like to believe we have a greater capacity for exploration because we do recognize there is something beyond ourselves.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Faith calls believers to embrace exploration and take on the risks that come with following Jesus.
Current church culture often resists change and exploration, preferring to maintain the status quo.
The Church Leadership Institute aims to equip individuals with the skills needed to navigate uncharted territories.
Believers must learn to let go of the past, embodying humility and accepting potential losses, to move forward.
God's presence provides reassurance and support for the faithful as they embark upon new, explorative journeys.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

216. Overcoming 'Puny' Spirituality, with Warren Brown and Brad Strawn, authors of Enhancing Christian Life May 14, 2024

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In this episode, Warren Brown and Brad Strawn, authors of Enhancing Christian Life, explain how contemporary Christian practices can often lead to what they call a 'puny' experience of Christianity that elevates personal feelings of closeness to God over outward expressions of faith. They argue for a robust, 'supersized' form of Christian life, where followers of Jesus are deeply connected with their church community, contributing to and drawing from a shared life that reflects the teachings of Jesus in tangible and embodied ways.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Warren Brown and Brad Strawn discuss the premise of their book addressing the problem of individualism in Christian life.
They elaborate on how this individualism leads to a disembodied Christian life, where the body is given lower status compared to the soul.
The concept of "supersizing" Christian life is introduced, suggesting that a communal approach to faith and acknowledging the physical nature of human existence can enhance one’s spiritual experience.
Warren Brown stresses that humans are not separate entities of bodies and souls, but fundamentally bodies, which challenges traditional dualistic views.
Brad Strawn emphasizes the importance of community and visible actions as markers of a genuine Christian life.
The problem of Christian life being treated as a private, individualistic experience is critiqued, promoting a more communal and outward-focused practice.
Both guests discuss the transformative power of living out Christian faith in communal and practical ways, such as through church congregations actively engaging in charitable acts.
The conversation shifts towards the errors of mind-body dualism, reinforcing the idea that spiritual experiences should not be isolated from physical and communal contexts.
Brad Strawn argues that even solitary spiritual practices like meditation are enriched and informed by communal and historical church practices.
The dialogue covers how internal spiritual states (often considered private) should ideally reflect and be influenced by one's external actions and community engagements.
The discussion concludes by considering the broader implications of their ideas on church practices, emphasizing an active, outward-looking approach to faith that integrates personal reflection with communal action.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Enhancing Christian Life, by Warren Brown and Brad Strawn
- The Physical Nature of Christian Life, by Warren Brown
- Did My Neurons Make Me Do It? by Warren Brown and Nancy Murphy
- The Extended Mind, by Annie Murphy-Paul
Fuller Studio - Brad Strawn lectures
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

215. The Contagion of Anxiety in Spiritual Leadership, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 07, 2024

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This episode unpacks the concept of differentiation—how it allows us to recognize when someone else's anxiety affects us and vice versa, and the significance of maintaining our personal identity while staying connected in relationships. With vivid examples and relatable scenarios, we'll explore strategies to navigate crises and anxiety within our congregations and leadership teams without succumbing to the contagious nature of anxiety.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Steve Cuss in Episode 47, Leadership, Anxiety, and Family Systems:

“[Differentiation] is your ability to notice when you’re getting infected by someone else’s anxiety, and how to stop your anxiety from infecting someone else.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Contagious anxiety impairs rational thinking and flexibility within communities.
A strong identity enables individuals to engage with others without being overwhelmed by external crises.
Differentiation involves maintaining a clear sense of self while staying connected in relationships without enmeshment or detachment.
Self-aware leaders discern when to shoulder others' problems and when to maintain boundaries for personal well-being.
Recognizing and managing one’s anxiety prevents it from spilling over and impacting the wider community.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

214. Leading with Purpose and Authenticity, with Tommy Nixon, CEO of Urban Youth Workers Initiative Apr 30, 2024

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Healthy leadership is about paying attention to what God is up to in the people we’re leading. Our job, then, is not to force people to be something they’re not so they can support our own initiatives. Our job is to take note of how our people are wired and then help them live that out for the sake of God’s mission.
This is true, by the way, not only for the people we lead; it's true for the leader, too. In this episode, Tommy Nixon, the CEO of Urban Youth Workers Initiative, does an amazing job unpacking that reality.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tommy Nixon is CEO of Urban Youth Workers Institute.
Tommy Nixon reflects on the importance of embracing individual gifts and the problems of emulating other prominent leaders.
Tommy Nixon and Markus Watson reflect on their shared experience of walking the Camino de Santiago.
The pressures leaders receive from external stakeholders, such as donors and board members, can be profound. That’s why it is important to develop a deliberate growth strategy.
Investing in others is critical, as is the role of conflict and tension in contributing to growth within a team.
Tommy Nixon narrates his challenges with wearing multiple hats in leadership roles and calls into question whether individuals are truly multifaceted or should concentrate on their strengths.
He advises leaders to have candid conversations with their teams about their abilities and to possibly reconceptualize leadership and teaching methods.
Markus Watson shares his insights on the difficulties of transitioning from conventional leadership expectations to a model that involves spiritual formation and surrender.
Tommy Nixon speaks on the need for leaders to engage in self-exploration and the advantages it brings, mentioning the use of introspection to seek divine direction and share vulnerabilities to promote a mutual understanding.
Nixon shares his own journey of inner healing and self-acceptance through God's love that he has been on since high school.
Tommy Nixon has come to embrace a significant truth over two decades, which has revolutionized his approach to leadership and handling disappointments.
Markus Watson opens up about being triggered by a comment from a parishioner and the value of introspection and apologizing for his response.
The conversation shifts to the idea of leading by allowing people to be themselves and trusting God to work in their midst.
Nixon underscores the concept that understanding and joining God's plan is crucial, even when faced with leading a smaller church in the post-pandemic era.
Tommy Nixon concludes by advocating for a paradigm shift in Christian leadership, encouraging a more people-centered approach and institutional change within the church and related nonprofits.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

213. Embracing Limitations as a Ministry Resource, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Apr 23, 2024

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the powerful reminder that as pastors and leaders, we are not God and that recognizing our human limitations can prevent dysfunction within our ministries. This conversation will shed light on the protective nature of limitations for both leaders and those entrusted to their care.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Mandy Smith in Episode 36, The Vulnerable Pastor:

“Limitation is a ministry resource.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Limitation serves as a vital ministry resource, protecting both pastors and their communities.
Acknowledging our human constraints fosters a necessary dependence on God’s provision.
An awareness of personal boundaries prevents dysfunction and burnout among spiritual leaders.
Embracing vulnerability in leadership equips us to minister from a place of authenticity.
The recognition of our limitations enhances our pastoral care and grounds us in our humanity.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

212. Unlearning Old Paradigms for Kingdom Leadership, with Terry Walling, author of Unlikely Nomads Apr 16, 2024

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Terry Walling is Founder and President of Leader Breakthru and the author of Unlikely Nomads.
In this episode, Terry Walling shares about people he calls “nomads.” They love Jesus, but they don’t love the more traditional expressions of the church. They want to be part of the church, but the way most of our churches are structured isn’t life-giving for them.
Terry and I reflect together on what a “nomad” is, what “nomads” are longing for, and how churches like yours and mine can love and bless “nomads” as they seek to live out their love for Jesus.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Terry Walling expresses his passion for mentoring leaders who are willing to take risks within the kingdom.
He reflects on his own transformation from pastor to leadership development expert during a significant transition period.
Walling shares humorous anecdotes from his pastoring days, particularly while presiding over the church his parents attended.
Terry Walling discusses the shift from traditional programmatic church models to environments that foster safe and meaningful community connections.
Terry Walling believes that church expressions are changing, with "Unlikely Nomads" capturing this evolutionary process.
Walling advises the church to unlearn old paradigms and embrace new ones to stay relevant and effective.
He emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for community interaction over adherence to traditional programmatic structures.
The concept of a "bridging church" is presented as a means to help individuals reintegrate into their local communities.
Terry Walling speaks about "unlikely nomads" within the church who seek a more profound journey with God and authenticity in their faith.
He discusses the challenge of transforming church structures and the need to focus on personal renewal before organizational change.
Terry Walling proposes that a shift towards personal discipleship can lead the way for structural transformations within the church.
Markus Watson and Terry Walling hosts highlight the gradual, faithful process required for becoming more genuine followers of Jesus.
They discuss the relevance of learning from those who have left the church to gain a broader understanding of faith and community.
Walling and Watson emphasize the importance of not forcing individuals to conform to existing church expressions, but to have open conversations.
The conversation delves into the difficulties church leaders face when adapting to evolving congregational expectations and societal shifts.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINK:

Terry Walling:
- Leader Breakthru
- Podcast - The Nomad Chronicles
Books mentioned:
- Unlikely Nomads, by Terry Walling
- Stuck, by Terry Walling

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

211. Fire and Suffering, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Apr 09, 2024

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson unpack a powerful quote from Steve Carter, "You only learn resilience through the fire and through the suffering." This quote emerged from Steve Carter's experience of letting go of everything he had known and worked towards when he offered his resignation from a church leadership position in the wake of abuse allegations against the senior pastor, Bill Hybels. From this, the conversation explores the concept of resilience and how leaders are formed in the crucible of change and suffering. Tod Bolsinger draws from his work in Tempered Resilience to discuss the importance of reflection, relationships, and spiritual practices in developing resilience in the face of suffering.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Markus Watson in Episode 163, You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost :

“You only learn resilience through the fire and through the suffering.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Leaders develop resilience through facing the crucible of change and suffering.
Reflecting, nurturing relationships, and spiritual practices are essential in developing resilience.
Steve Carter's quote emphasizes the importance of willingly engaging with suffering to learn resilience.
Formative leadership happens when individuals courageously face challenges, seeking growth amidst suffering.
Resilience isn't just about enduring hardship, it's about embracing reflective practices and nurturing supportive relationships.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

210. Cultivating Cultural Competence, with Daniel Lee, author of Doing Asian American Theology Apr 02, 2024

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Daniel Lee is the academic dean for the Center for Asian American Theology and Ministry at Fuller Theological Seminary and author of Doing Asian American Theology.
Daniel Lee discusses the fact that each of us does theology from a particular persepective. Recognizing our own "particularities" makes us far better leaders. Why? Because the more we are aware of our own cultural particularities, the more we become competent as leaders in regard to one another's cultural particularities.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Daniel Lee discusses the idea of God transcending divisive issues and the theological basis for God's perception of people.
Daniel Lee initially saw his Korean heritage as baggage and tried to shed his cultural identity for a more generic evangelical perspective, but later realized the importance of embracing his Asian American identity in relation to his faith and theology.
Initially resistant to being an Asian American theologian, Daniel Lee eventually embraced the need to articulate and address the significance of his cultural identity in his theological work.
Daniel Lee points out that everyone has their own perspective and that when some perspectives become normalized, others are seen as abnormal. This issue exists in society and churches.
Lee highlights the absence of modern-day race in the Bible and emphasizes the interaction between God and individuals, suggesting God's unique interaction with each person.
Daniel Lee compares Asian American theology to the witness of God found in the gospels, emphasizing that theology is contextual and filtered through human perspective.
It is important to recognize theology from an Asian American perspective and to witness to the one God collectively, while acknowledging that different perspectives yield a robust understanding of God.
Ministry leaders need to move beyond crude stereotypes depicted in pop culture and gain a deeper understanding of colonial history and community-specific challenges.
It is so important to gain more vocabulary and knowledge about different communities. We also need humility and adaptiveness when interacting with individuals and communities.
Both Daniel Lee and Markus Watson talk about the importance of discerning and joining in with what God is doing within communities.
It is important to understand particularity in theology, as well as apply ministry in specific and precise ways rather than using a generic approach.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Daniel Lee:
- Center for Asian American Theology and Ministry
Books mentioned:
- Doing Asian American Theology, by Daniel Lee
- Doing Local Theology, by Clemens Sedmak
Church Leadership Institute
Related Episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

209. Abdication and Abuse, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Mar 26, 2024

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore a powerful quote from Lisa Lamb: "An abdication of leadership is also an abuse of leadership." Lisa's perspective as a preaching professor adds a unique angle to the discussion, highlighting the responsibility of leaders to recognize and respond to the needs they see in the world. Tod shares insights from his experience, emphasizing the collaborative nature of leadership in calling for change and transformation.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Lisa Lamb in Episode 161: Preaching for Deep Connection:

“An abdication of leadership is also an abuse of leadership.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Abdicating leadership responsibilities is an abuse of leadership.
Stepping into places of pain and taking responsibility is true leadership.
Leadership is about convening people and inviting them to make a difference.
Preaching serves leadership by calling people to take responsibility for change.
Leadership in a changing world is a collaborative experience that involves using the preaching moment to call people to take responsibility for transformation.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

208. Letting Go in Leadership to Move Forward in Life, with Adam McHugh, author of Blood From a Stone Mar 19, 2024

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In this conversation, Adam McHugh, the author of Blood From a Stone, opens up about his transition from ministry as a hospice chaplain to the world of wine, becoming a wine tour guide and sommelier. Adam shares about the emotional rollercoaster that goes along with redefining one's identity and faith outside of traditionally established ministry roles.

For pastors and ministry leaders struggling with letting go of their church-centered identities, or struggling with transitioning in the way they are called to lead in a constantly changing world, this conversation will encourage you to lean into the patience and the inner transformation needed to live and lead in new ways.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Adam McHugh shares his journey from ministry to a new career path, reflecting on the difficulty and fear associated with such a transition.
Markus Watson and Adam McHugh explore the prevalence of compassion fatigue among pastors and chaplains, acknowledging the personal toll it takes.
The conversation touches on the struggle to redefine personal identity and faith when moving beyond traditional pastoral roles.
Adam McHugh recounts his impactful experiences as a hospice chaplain and how they shaped his sense of self and faith.
Adam and Markus delve into the "dark night of the soul," discussing the profound search for authenticity amidst life's challenges.
Adam McHugh describes his transition from being a pastor and chaplain to a sommelier and wine tour guide, revealing a new chapter of his life.
Adam McHugh articulates the struggle of identity and the transformation he underwent from Reverend to sommelier, framing it as an evolution of his humanity.
Adam McHugh and Markus Watson emphasize the necessity of acknowledging the end of one life phase before embracing a new one, underscoring the importance of the internal transition process.
Markus Watson adds insight into the stress associated with pastoral duties and the importance of embracing one's humanity over a clerical role.
Adam McHugh advises pastors grappling with identity transitions to be patient and considerate of the internal processes involved.
The discussion reveals Adam McHugh's tumultuous shift from a pastoral identity to embracing a new community and profession.
Markus Watson speaks to the ongoing journey of transformation, underscoring the significance of patience and being shaped by God's hand.
Adam McHugh advises embracing patience during the difficult process of identity transition, recognizing that it is a part of the continual path of transformation.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Adam McHugh:
- Email – adammchugh@gmail.com
- Instagram - @adammchughwine
- InterVarsity Press bio
Books mentioned:
- Blood From a Stone, by Adam McHugh
- Powers and Thrones, by Dan Jones
- Managing Transitions, by William Bridges
Related Episodes:
- Ep. 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition, with D. Michael Lindsay
- Ep. 194: Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff Crosby

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207. The Vital Role of Vocation, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Mar 12, 2024

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the transformative power of vocation as they discuss a poignant quote by Steven Garber. Join them as they unpack how each person's calling is woven into the very meaning of God's work in the world. They shed light on the profound implications of vocation for spiritual formation, the vitality of the church, and the overarching mission of God. With engaging anecdotes and thought-provoking insights, this discussion promises to spark a deeper understanding of vocation's profound impact on individual lives and the collective mission of the church.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scott Thumma in Episode 157: Seamless Leadership:

“Vocation is integral—not incidental—to the missio dei, to the very meaning of God’s work in the world.”
THIS EPISODES' HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Every Christian has a calling to participate in God's mission to bring renewal to the world.
Our sense of calling is not just about our career or job but is integral to our identity.
Every person's vocation, whether paid or unpaid, is sacred and important in the eyes of God.
God chooses to use us in His work to restore and renew the world.
Vocation involves developing the capacity to hear God's voice and discern our unique calling in life.

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206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins, Director of Journey Home Mar 05, 2024

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When I walked the Camino de Santiago in 2022, it was something I had been longing to do for years. After a fairly traumatic experience at a church I'd been serving, the thought of just walking with Jesus for an extended time felt like exactly what I needed.
I walked the Camino together with Jon Huckins, the founder and Director of Journey Home. In this episode, Jon unpacks why pilgrimmage is so meaningful and how it can help those of us in leadership to be our best selves for the sake of those we're leading, for the world, and for ourselves.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jon Huckins is founder and Director of Journey Home and is adjunct professor of New Testament at Point Loma Nazarene University.
Jon Huckins describes the transition to the second half of life as a shift from doing to being and embracing one's identity as deeply loved by God.
The Camino de Santiago pilgrimage is presented as a crucial tool for self-reflection, challenging external expectations, and engaging spiritual awakening.
The transition from leading Global Immersion to starting Journey Home reflects Huckins' focus on facilitating societal and individual healing.
Jon Huckins shares the profound influence the Camino pilgrimage has had on his ministry and his dedication to the work of peacemaking.
The Camino serves as a means for intentional dislocation to face oneself and the authentic realitiies of life.
Huckins comments on the distinct challenges faced by pastors and ministry leaders in an era where their conventional roles are questioned.
Pilgrimage, according to Jon Huckins, is linked to the process of acknowledging and grieving loss, while also confronting the resistance to change in our ministries.
Becoming second-half-of-life individuals allows for more resilience and a generous, open-hearted approach to leadership.
Jon Huckins emphasizes the significance of spaces like the Camino for transformation, focusing on experiencing rather than decision-making.
Jon Huckins highlights the transformative power of being fully present and releasing control, as experienced on the Camino.
The mission of Journey Home aims to facilitate pilgrimages that act as vehicles for healing and development for leaders.
Jon Huckins stresses the importance of pilgrimages like the Camino in aiding Christian leaders through their spiritual and emotional development.
The challenges of ministry require spaces and practices that support healing and rejuvenation.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

JourneyHome:
- Website – Journeyhome.info
- Instagram - @journey_home_pilgrimages
Books mentioned:
- Falling Upward, by Richard Rohr
- Leadership on the Line, by Ronald Heifetz
Related episodes:
- Ep 163: You Can’t Be Found if You’re Never Lost, with Steve Carter
- Ep 112: The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette
Church leadership In

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205. How Can Disequilibrium Strengthen Your Church? A Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Feb 27, 2024

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the concept of disequilibrium and its impact on systems, leadership, and organizational health. They discuss how prolonged equilibrium can be detrimental to a system's ability to adapt and innovate, and how crises and moments of disequilibrium can actually reveal underlying problems and present opportunities for growth and change. Drawing from experiences and examples, they highlight the potential for systems and individuals to become stronger, more resilient, and healthier due to the experience of disequilibrium.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Markus Watson in Episode 139: Disequilibrium and the Mission of God :

"When a system experiences disequilibrium, the system has the opportunity to become stronger, to become more resilient, and even to become healthier."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Experiencing disequilibrium allows a system to become stronger, more resilient, and healthier.
Prolonged equilibrium can lead to a loss of ability to adapt.
Crises reveal opportunities to hit the organizational reset button and address underlying issues.
Disequilibrium can lead to increased capacity and clarity in dealing with crisis and making hard decisions.
Disequilibrium or crisis provides opportunities to make a system stronger.

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204. How to Cultivate Presence in Your Community, with Tim Soerens, author of Everywhere You Look Feb 20, 2024

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Would your neighborhood even notice if your church ceased to exist? I imagine that’s a question many of us have thought about. Maybe you’ve even posed that question to your congregation.
Maybe the question should be, as churches, how do we become more present to our neighborhood.? That’s what I talk about in this episode with my guest, Tim Soerens, the author of Everywhere You Look: Discovering the Church Right Where You Are.
Tim walks us through his shift from wanting to be a big church pastor to learning what it means to truly embody the Christian narrative in our neighborhoods. And he helps us better understand the concept of a parish and what it means to have a “minimum viable presence” in your community.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tim Soerens emphasizes the need to listen and understand the specific hopes and dreams God has for both communities and individuals.
He advises on discerning how to actively address the particular needs and challenges within a neighborhood or parish.
The conversation delves into determining a parish's boundaries, considering factors like centers of activity, edges, and resident affiliation.
Soerens notes the complexities in identifying a parish in suburban and rural settings, influenced by architectural designs and local governance.
Markus Watson discusses the varied needs of communities in serving their neighborhoods effectively.
Tim Soerens suggests congregations often comprise multiple parishes, sparking discussion on discerning their locations.
Soerens introduces the idea of a 'minimum viable presence' for church experimentation, akin to the business concept of a 'minimum viable product.'
He highlights the value of small, experimental initiatives to understand better what works in community outreach.
The discussion encourages involving others in these small experiments and celebrating the courage it takes to try new approaches.
They stress the freedom to experiment without the fear of failure, emphasizing that each community requires a tailored approach.
Soerens recommends starting outreach efforts with curiosity, prayer, and involving others in experimental activities.
Tim Soerens shares insights into The Parish Collective's mission and upcoming events, inviting listeners to connect.
He recounts a pivotal interaction with Michael Frost that steered him away from preaching-centric community formation to joining what God is already doing.
The conversation touches on the formation of The Parish Collective, which encourages congregations to align their ecclesial life around joining God's work.
Soerens advocates for a vision of the church that transcends Sunday services, focusing instead on being actively involved in God's hopes and dreams for neighborhoods.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Parish Collective Website
Books Mentioned:
- Everywhere You Look, by Tim Soerens
Related episodes:
- Episode 129: Recalibrating the Church Around Jesus, with Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch Episode 185: From Sunday Services to Real Transformation, with E.K. Strawser
- Episode 177: Exploring New Forms of Church, with

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203. Hybrid Worship and Long-Term Adaptation, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Feb 13, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the technological challenges faced by congregations during the pandemic. They discuss a quote from Scott Thumma about the hybrid and customizable nature of the world and its implications for congregations. Tod shares insights on the importance of aligning values with technological adaptations, the decreasing willingness to change post-pandemic, and the need for enduring long-term adaptation. Together, they discuss practical strategies for pastors to navigate these challenges and ensure congregations reflect the ever-changing world.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scott Thumma in Episode 198: Clergy, Congregations, and Hope After the Pandemic:

“Our world is customizable. It is on demand. It is hybrid. It’s virtual as much as it is in person. In the rest of our lives we’ve come to understand that’s how the rest of the world works. So, we really have to think about how do we make our congregations reflect that.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Scott Thumma suggests that our world has become customizable, on-demand, and virtual, and calls for congregations to reflect the changes in the wider world.
Tod Bolsinger emphasizes that adaptive leadership is not just about technical solutions, but about values, behaviors, and attitudes.
The decrease in people's willingness to adapt beyond the crisis is observed, signifying the tendency to revert to the familiar when the crisis has passed.
Wise and enduring change requires self-reflection and a shift from short-term crisis adaptations to long-term adaptation in a changing environment.
Tod Bolsinger recommends that congregations start by identifying their deepest values and then being willing to change everything else to align with those values.

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202. The Sacredness of Business, with Barry Rowan, author of The Spiritual Art of Business Feb 06, 2024

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Barry Rowan has had a 40-year career in leading businesses after graduating from Harvard Business School. He and his wife are entering into a new encore calling, which includes his new book, The Spiritual Art of Business.
Barry Rowan, in this episode, challenges the dualism of the sacred and the secular, and shares his incredible journey of surrender, transformation, and integrating faith into his 40-year-business career.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Barry Rowan discusses the paradigm shift he experienced, realizing that life is lived from the inside out, with Jesus at the center of our lives, and everything being an expression of Christ in us.
He challenges the dualism between the sacred and the secular, arguing that it causes problems and leads us to live outside of God's purposes.
Barry Rowan points out that viewing work through the right lens can make every moment congruent with our purpose in life.
Markus Watson reflects on the self-perception challenges people in the business world face, and Rowan emphasizes the need to bring meaning to work and view business roles as noble and sacred callings.
Barry Rowan describes the purpose of business as responsible value creation, serving customers, creating an environment for employees to grow, and being a good corporate citizen, all contributing to a better society.
Barry Rowan discusses how he approached his Christian beliefs in the workplace, explaining his focus on reflecting God's principles in business operations.
The "spiritual art of business cycle," emphasizes surrender, transformation, becoming new creations, and going out into the world.
Surrender is the gateway to freedom and leads to personal transformation and the expression of Christ in us.
Markus Watson discusses the possibility of the cycle applying to organizations and churches, to which Rowan agrees and emphasizes the need for continuous reimagining and transformation, particularly in the current post-Christendom world.
Developing a life-giving perspective of work is so important.
Barry Rowan shares examples of individuals finding meaning and purpose in their work, such as a woman making baby monitors and a shuttle bus driver.
They discuss how pastors can apply this perspective to their roles, emphasizing the need for personal internalization of their work's spiritual significance.
Every moment can be charged with God's presence and we should incorporate that perspective into our daily activities.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Barry Rowan
- Website – barrylrowan.com
- Free The Spiritual Art of Business study guide
Books mentioned:
- The Spiritual Art of Business, by Barry Rowan
Related Episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

201. Understanding Change and Transition, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jan 30, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the distinction between change and transition. Quoting D. Michael Lindsay, they discuss how change happens in an instant, whereas transition unfolds over weeks, months, and sometimes years. Bolstering this idea with personal anecdotes, they delve into the importance of giving oneself the time and space to adapt to change, acknowledging the losses involved, and ultimately finding comfort and growth in the new realities.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Sarah Bereza in Episode 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition:

"Change happens to us in an instant. Transition happens over weeks, months, sometimes even years."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Understanding the difference between change and transition is crucial for adapting to life's challenges.
Acknowledging the loss and grief that come with change can help build resilience and lead to a quicker processing of the transition.
Developing patience and perseverance involves recognizing the importance of giving oneself the space to adapt and acknowledging the honesty of what has been lost.
Allowing the necessary time to adapt to change and transition is vital in order to be intentional and patient in dealing with life's challenges.
Embracing the reality that transition takes time, and staying committed to the process can lead to a place of comfort and contentment in the new circumstances.

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200. The Justice Feast, with Michael Rhodes, author of Just Discipleship Jan 18, 2024

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Michael Rhodes is lecturer in Old Testament at Carey Baptist College and the author of Just Discipleship: Biblical Justice in an Unjust World.
From the biblical concept of justice and the role of worship in shaping our approach to justice, to the practicalities of addressing poverty and racial justice, Michael Rhodes takes us into the heart of what it means to live out just discipleship.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Michael Rhodes emphasizes the importance of incorporating themes of justice into worship and liturgy.
Worship should create a demand among worshipers to get involved in God's mission of justice and bring the pain of the world into the center.
The feasts in Deuteronomy are invitations to the good life and wise living, and they also address contemporary justice issues.
Michael Rhodes highlights the concept of the "feast" and the importance of interacting with people not like oneself.
Michael Rhodes suggests practical advice for overcoming obstacles, such as increasing proximity to those facing injustice and allowing scripture to unsettle and challenge unjust practices.
Worship and prayer, such as the Psalms, play an important role in shaping perspectives on justice and discipleship.
Michael Rhodes emphasizes the concept of tithing in Deuteronomy, where people are encouraged to use their tithe to have a feast before the Lord.
The justice feast forms the community and the hearts of the individuals who participate, as it teaches them to fear the Lord and relate to God.
Worship should create a demand among worshipers to get involved in God's mission of justice.
Michael Rhodes points out the increasing lack of interaction between different economic classes in American society and suggests that proximity to those who are suffering is crucial.
the justice feast in Deuteronomy highlights the concept of justice as the faithful exercise of power and just structures, including regular contributions for the poor and debt forgiveness laws.
Michael Rhodes proposes practical advice for overcoming obstacles, such as increasing proximity to those facing injustice and allowing scripture to unsettle and challenge unjust practices.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Michael Rhodes:
- Twitter - @michaeljrhodes
- Carey Baptist College
Books mentioned:
- Just Discipleship, by Michael Rhodes
- Practicing the King’s Economy, by Michael Rhodes and Robby Holt
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

199. Being Your Authentic Self in Professional Ministry, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jan 16, 2024

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the challenge of being fully authentic as a ministry leader. The conversation centers around a quote from Sara Bereza, highlighting the difficulty people in professional ministry face when trying to be their true selves. Through an exploration of the biblical story of Moses, Paul's writings in 2nd Corinthians, and personal anecdotes, Markus and Tod discuss the weight of wearing a facade and the importance of cultivating vulnerability, authenticity, and resilience in the ministry space. They emphasize the need for secure relationships and intentional efforts to be one's genuine self amidst the pressures and expectations of the ministry environment.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Sarah Bereza in Episode 141: Being Fully Yourself in Leadership:
“It can be really hard for people in the professional ministry space to be fully themselves.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

In professional ministry, being fully oneself can be challenging.
Moses, a leader from the Bible, struggled with authenticity and wore a veil to hide his radiance.
Trying to emulate other influential figures in ministry can be exhausting.
Finding freedom and wholeness in leadership comes from embracing one's true self.
Building secure relationships with partners, mentors, and friends is crucial for vulnerable leadership.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

198. Clergy, Congregations, and Hope After the Pandemic, with Scott Thumma, Director of the Hartford Institute for Religion Research Jan 09, 2024

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Scott Thumma is Professor of Sociology of Religion at Hartford International University and Director of the Hartford Institute for Religion Research. Scott is also Principal Investigator of a study titled Exploring the Pandemic Impact on Congregations.
In this episode, Scott Thumma shares insights from that study, including the tension between clergy and congregations, the rise of hybrid worship, and the ongoing struggle to adapt to a changing world.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Scott Thumma emphasizes the resistance to change that clergy might within their congregations, attributing it to "suffering from whiplash."
Congregations need to evolve and adapt in order to avoid obsolescence.
Thumma noted the profound effect of the pandemic on congregational life during his sabbatical at the start of the pandemic, which resulted in a grant for a 5-year study.
The Exploring the Pandemic Impact on Congregations study revealed both positive and troubling aspects of the pandemic's impact on congregational dynamics.
Earlier in 2021, congregational life was at a low point, but there was a sense of community and rallying together to address the challenges.
Many congregations have shifted back to in-person programs and meetings, finding in-person interactions to be richer and more robust.
Scott Thumma points out that some functions, such as adult education and committee meetings, can function significantly better virtually.
Scott Thumma emphasizes the importance of making congregations reflect the customizable and virtual nature of the modern era, and discusses how hybridity can expand the number of people serviced in a congregation and meet the expectations of visitors and new members.
Scott Thumma acknowledges the collective trauma experienced during the pandemic, noting changes in behavior and a sense that "none of us are the same."
Trends show that congregation sizes and average ages of attendees and pastors have continued to change, but the pandemic didn't radically impact the overall trajectory of the church.
Scott Thumma is concerned about a decreasing willingness to change among congregations since the pandemic, leading to reluctance for continued adaptation and change.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

197. Meaningful Risk, A Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jan 02, 2024

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson unpack a quote by Andy Crouch emphasizes the importance of finding the right meaningful risk in unlocking flourishing for both oneself and those entrusted to their care. Tod and Markus discuss the concept of meaningful risk as distinct from mere risk-taking, emphasizing the role of discernment in pursuing risks that are truly worth taking. They delve into the idea that meaningful vulnerability, willingly embraced for the sake of others' flourishing, is an essential aspect of leadership. Drawing on theological insights, they reflect on the example of God's meaningful risk in incarnating into the world, offering valuable perspectives on how to navigate fear and resistance to vulnerability in leadership.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Andy Crouch in Episode 113: Flourishing Leadership:
“Finding the right meaningful risk will unlock flourishing for you and the people you’re entrusted with.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Finding the right meaningful risk unlocks flourishing for individuals and the people they're entrusted with.
Leadership involves discerning what risks are meaningful and worth taking.
Meaningful vulnerability is willingly allowing oneself to be vulnerable for the greater good and flourishing of others.
Taking meaningful risks and embracing vulnerability reflects the wisdom and love of God.
Resistance to vulnerability is common, but embracing meaningful risks can lead to unlocking new possibilities and flourishing in organizations and communities.

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196. Overcoming Bad Religion, with Todd Hunter, author of What Jesus Intended Dec 26, 2023

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Todd Hunter leads Churches for the Sake of Others, a diocese of the Anglican Church in North America, and is the author of What Jesus Intended: Finding True Faith in the Rubble of Bad Religion.
In this episode, Todd Hunter and I discuss “bad religion,” “good religion,” and what it means to be the church God has called us to be.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Todd discusses "bad religion," referring to church actions that harm people, including sexual and financial scandals and misuse of power.
He shares personal experiences of witnessing bullying and manipulation within charismatic and Pentecostal circles.
The conversation explores the historical existence of bad religion and the pursuit of healthy and faithful religion.
Todd Hunter emphasizes the importance of listening without compromise and using Jesus as an example of engaging with others while staying true to beliefs.
Churches need to listen, especially to victims, without giving up on fundamental beliefs, to reshape churches towards goodness.
Markus Watson contrasts Jesus' engagement with marginalized individuals with the church's perceived engagement.
Todd discusses the need for the church to engage with unique Christian claims while avoiding a privileged and know-it-all attitude.
He emphasizes the theological meaning of "end" and God's healing the world through his people.
Todd believes that God's people will rule and reign with him in a renewed heaven and earth.
He shares insights from Dallas Willard about engaging in conversations with others.
Christ followers need to have honest conversations with others while remaining grounded in their own beliefs.
Todd Hunter discusses the negative impact of fear and anxiety and emphasizes the eschatological nature of faith for pastors living in a post-Christendom world.
It is important to understand the broader intentions of Jesus beyond just dying for salvation.
Todd Hunter expresses a desire to reintroduce Jesus to people who are disengaged from traditional church practices.
Churches need to meet people where they are, tailoring church practices to different communities.
The conversation acknowledges the value of traditional church forms while emphasizing openness to various expressions of faith beyond traditions like house churches.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Todd Hunter:
- www.toddhunter.org
- www.c4so.org
Center for Justice and Peace
Books mentioned:
- What Jesus Intended, by Todd Hunter
- Jesus and the Victory of God, by N.T. Wright
- A Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
Pray as You God
Fresh Expressions
Related episodes:
- Episode 126: A Crisis of Adult Discipleship, with Brian Wallace

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

195. Cultivating Vision through Listening, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Dec 19, 2023

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In this quick conversation Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore a thought-provoking quote from Alexia Salvatierra, a professor at Centro Latino at Fuller Theological Seminary. The quote, "If you don't listen, you can't see what God is doing," sparks a deep discussion on the importance of listening and discerning God's work in the world. Tod shares insights on the implications of this quote for leadership, the significance of listening to others, and the challenges of opening ourselves up to different perspectives.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Alexia Salvatierra in Episode 101: Gratitude, Grief, and Guilt--the Church After Covid:
"If you don't listen, you can't see what God is doing."
THIS EPISODE"S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE"

Listening is crucial for discerning and seeing what God is doing.
Rather than being vision casters, leaders should focus on hearing the voice of God and sensing His direction.
Listening to others, including neighbors and different perspectives, helps in recognizing God's work, especially in our blind spots.
It's important to force ourselves to open up to other voices and perspectives to better hear and see what God is doing.
To better discern God's leading, it's essential to stop and listen, particularly to those who have been ignored.

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194. Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff Crosby, author of The Language of the Soul Dec 12, 2023

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Jeff Crosby is President and CEO of ECPA, the trade association of Christian pulishers, and the author of The Language of the Soul: Meeting God in the Longings of Our Hearts.
In this episode, I’m speaking with Jeff Crosby about our longings. We discuss a Portuguese word—saudade—which, according to Jeff, is an untranslatable word that refers to a kind of deep, inner longing that every human feels.

As leaders, it’s so important to recognize our longings. And it’s even more important to meet God in the midst of our longings.

THIS EPISODES HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jeff Crosby is President and CEO of ECPA, the trade association of Christian pulishers, and the author of The Language of the Soul: Meeting God in the Longings of Our Hearts.
Jeff Crosby discusses the concept of saudade as a deep inner longing and its resonance with spiritual longing and leadership.
The episode delves into how individuals can recognize signals of disintegration in their lives and the need to center themselves, seeking support from spiritual friends, counselors, or spiritual directors.
Jeff Crosby and Markus Watson discuss the different dimensions of saudade, involving personal relationships, meaningful work, and a sense of belonging, peace, and safety.
The structure of the book, focusing on internal, external, and eternal longings, is highlighted, emphasizing the universal nature of yearning in leadership and personal development.
Jeff discusses the value of saudade and the inner journey of affirming it and finding God's presence, especially in times of loss and change.
In the context of a changing world and ministry, Jeff Crosby address the impact of loss and the way it affects individuals and their leadership roles.
Jeff Crosby's book, The Language of the Soul, should be read slowly, allowing it to have a deep impact on the soul.
Jeff and Markus discuss the potential negative effects of pushing down desires in leadership.
Jeff Crosby’s book is meant to tap into readers' own saudade and prompt reflection on their desires, inspired by the notion that spirituality revolves around handling the pain and hope brought by yearning.
Jeff Crosby and Markus Watson emphasize the crucial role of of an undivided life in leadership.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jeff Crosby:
- Evangelical Christian Publishers Association
Books mentioned:
- The Language of the Soul, by Jeff Crosby
- Hinge Moments, by D. Michael Lindsay
Related Episodes:
- Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff Crosby
- Episode 142: Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition, with D. Michael Lindsay

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

193. The Power of Healthy Anger in Ministry, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Dec 05, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the role of anger in leadership. They emphasize the importance of acknowledging and addressing anger in a healthy way, shifting the focus from retaliation to addressing the systems that need to be changed. They highlight the significance of understanding and navigating the anger of others, especially in the context of leading change in churches and organizations. Through their conversation, they underscore the value of naming anger as a legitimate feeling and taking responsibility for creating healthier systems that promote flourishing and minimize harm.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck Whitley in Episode 81: Anger and Spiritual Leadership:
“We need to shift our anger from responding with retaliation to addressing systems that need to be changed.”
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the discomfort often associated with acknowledging anger in a ministry or leadership context.
The conversation delves into the relationship between fear, hurt, and the unconscious tendency to retaliate when triggered by anger.
Reflecting on the civil rights movement, the episode illustrates the power of addressing broken systems in a transformative manner without resorting to retaliation.
The discussion highlights regional variations in passive-aggressive behavior, emphasizing the importance of owning and addressing the impact of every action within a ministry setting.
Tod Bolsinger provides practical insights on navigating and addressing the anger of others within a ministry context, emphasizing the value of addressing the deeper emotions behind the anger.
The episode emphasizes the legitimacy of healthy anger in leadership and the acknowledgment that change within ministries can elicit fear and anger, often expressed as anger.
Listeners gain valuable insights into understanding and responding to anger within ministry, acknowledging that change and faithful leadership can provoke anger, and providing guidance on managing this during significant transitions.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

192. Leading Change Without Authority, with Roy Inzunza, Corporate Chaplain Nov 28, 2023

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Roy Inzunza is corporate chaplain at Hoehn Motors in San Diego and works as an adaptive leadership coach with Tod Bolsinger.
In this episode, Roy Inzunza shares about his experience as a corporate chaplain. He shares not only how he began to see needs in the staff and in the organization that no one else saw—or no one was addressing—but he also shares how he began to lead from the margins. By changing himself he began to change the system.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Roy Inzunza is corporate chaplain at Hoehn Motors in San Diego and works as an adaptive leadership coach with Tod Bolsinger.
Inzunza started his own chaplaincy business called SquarePatch, providing spiritual care and well-being to clients.
Being a corporate chaplain comes with challenges as the workforce is often diverse in terms of beliefs and issues.
Roy Inzunza has dealt with various issues like divorce, addiction, health problems, and workplace dynamics in his role as a chaplain.
His pursuit of a Doctor of Ministry at Fuller Theological Seminary has helped him explore how the Gospel impacts personal and professional thriving.
Inzunza has expanded his focus to include caring for the shared life and health of the organization.
The positive response to his recent work has led to requests for training managers to make adaptive shifts in managing conflict.
Low morale and a lack of joy in the workplace are pain points that Roy addresses in his chaplaincy work.
Roy Inzunza highlights the importance of making adaptive shifts to increase joy in the workplace.
Navigating resistance from others when making changes is a challenge that Inzunza has faced.
Roy reflects on his initial defensive response to resistance and acknowledges the ongoing issue that needed addressing.
Both Inzunza and Watson emphasize that leadership requires personal change as well.
Inzunza describes the experiments he is conducting to address adaptive challenges, such as sending a weekly email about workplace courage practices. The positive responses and conversations sparked by the email have surprised Roy.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Roy Inzunza
- Squarepatch.org
Church Leadership Institute
Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort
Books mentioned:
- Life of the Beloved, by Henri Nouwen
Fuller Theological Seminary
- Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.) Program

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191. Thriving Church Leadership in Uncertain Times, with Heather James, Matt Lake, and Jonny Weir Nov 21, 2023

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In this episode, we’ve gathered a panel of experienced coaches in the world of church ministry to discuss the challenges of adapting to a rapidly changing landscape and the importance of embracing an adaptive approach to ministry leadership.
Joining Markus Watson on the panel are Matt Lake, Jonny Weir, and Heather James. All of them, because of their work as coaches with the Church Leadership Institute’s Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort, bring with them a wealth of knowledge and experience in guiding churches through the challenges that so many of us are facing today.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Heather James, Matt Lake, and Jonny Weir are ministry leaders and coaches with the Church Leadership Institute’s Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort.
Heather James and Matt Lake discuss adapting to a changing church ministry and following Jesus into the neighborhood.
Matt Lake and Markus Watson emphasize the need for adaptive leadership and embracing the posture of learning, not being an expert.
Matt Lake mentions the freedom in not feeling pressured to have all the answers and the importance of the observation, interpretation, intervention, and action process.
While technical leadership is important for technical challenges, adaptive leadership is critical for adaptive challenges.
The adaptive leadership approach is suitable for churches of all sizes and styles.
In adaptive leadership, it is critical to stay the course and guard the adaptive process.
Jonny Weir introduces the Church Leadership Institute’s Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort and the questions it helps answer.
The Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort is so valuable both in terms of ongoing learning and experimentation.
The Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort’s approach focuses on learning, observing, listening, interpreting, and then taking action.
The mindset shift is from focusing on outcomes to focusing on process and transformation.
The next Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort begins in February 2023. Sign up soon!

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

190. Harnessing Conflict for Positive Change, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Nov 14, 2023

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Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss a quote from Jeff Crosby. The quote, "The absence of conflict is not always possible nor always good," sparks a conversation about the importance of healthy conflict in leadership and personal growth. They share their experiences as an Enneagram 9 and an Enneagram 8, respectively, and offer insights on staying engaged, asking questions, and navigating conflict in a way that fosters understanding and moves organizations forward. They give an example of a church grappling with change and the tension between staying true to their existing community and reaching out to their changing neighborhood. Overall, the episode highlights the value of addressing conflict as an opportunity for growth and progress.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jeff Crosby in Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds:
"The absence of conflict is not always possible nor always good."

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189. Ministry Leadership in a Pluralistic World, with Jay Kim, author of One Jesus One People Nov 07, 2023

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Jay Kim is lead pastor at Westgate Church in the Silicon Valley, and author of a new study on Colossians titled, One Jesus, One People.
Syncretism refers to the blending of two belief systems. In this episode, Jay Kim and Markus Watson discuss syncretism in terms of its subtle effects on the church today and how to shed those syncretistic tendencies in our faith and ministry.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jay Kim is lead pastor at Westgate Church in the Silicon Valley, and author of a new study on Colossians titled, One Jesus, One People.
The book of Colossians was written to address what many scholars refer to as “the Colossian heresy.”
The Colossian heresy involved syncretism, which refers to a blending of beliefs, ideas, theologies. The Gospel was being mixed with other ideas and that’s what Paul was addressing.
Christian nationalism is an example of modern-day syncretism.
Jay Kim describes the connection between what Paul says in Colossians and Plato’s allegory of The Cave.
Too often we think our programs are the main thing. But they are only shadows.
According to Jay Kim, if we think our programs will change lives, we are pinning all our hopes and dreams on the “shadows” and not the reality.
Jay Kim discusses the role of Onesimus in Colossians—and marginalized voices in general—in helping churches grow into who they are called to be.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jay Kim:
- Website - jaykimthinks.com
Books and resources mentioned:
- One Jesus, One People, by Jay Kim
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger

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188. Leading People While Following Jesus, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Oct 31, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss a quote from Scot McKnight. The quote challenges the notion that leaders ought to control and asserts, instead, that leaders, particularly pastors, are actually followers of Jesus. Bolsinger emphasizes the importance of biblical leadership, rooted in self-sacrifice, care, and a focus on mission. He highlights the need to move away from dysfunctional patterns of leadership and instead raise up models of leadership that honor Jesus and reflect God's desire for the world. Ultimately, leadership is seen as a function, not a title, with leaders taking personal responsibility and inviting others to join in following Jesus and fulfilling His mission on Earth.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot McKnight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse.
"We are not leaders of others; we are followers of Jesus. 'Join us in following Jesus,' is the pastor's call."
Ep. 92 is a conversation inspired by Scot Mcknight's and Laura Barringer's book, A Church Called Tov.

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187. Tackling Adaptive Challenges in Church Leadership, with Angie Ward, author of Uncharted Leadership Oct 24, 2023

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Angie Ward is director of the Doctor of Ministry Program at Denver Seminary and the author of Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty.
What if you’ve got a problem and you cannot for the life of you find a solution. You also can’t find a book that tells you what to do. And you can’t find an expert to take care of the problem for you.

That's what's called an adaptive challenge and churches are full of adaptive challenges. And that’s what we’re talking about in this episode with Angie Ward.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Angie Ward is director of the Doctor of Ministry Program at Denver Seminary and the author of Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty.
Adaptive challenges are the kinds of challenges no one has faced before and for which there are no experts.
According to Angie Ward, a technical challenge is a challenge for which there is a clear path or solution.
When there is a gap between espoused values and actual values, that is likely an adaptive challenge.
Angie Ward points out that unresolved conflict or work avoidance in a church or organization can be an adaptive challenge.
Angie Ward stresses that emotions can shift a challenge to become more of an adaptive challenge.
Every change changes everything.
Adaptive leadership involves both managing people’s distress and giving the work back to the people.
According to Angie Ward, humility is the most important posture we need to take when navigating adaptive challenges.
We lead out of who we are, not just what we do.
When leading adaptively, Angie Ward says that process matters more than outcome.
Emotional health is key to good leadership.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Angie Ward:
- Website – www.angiewardphd.com
- The Big C Church Podcast
Books mentioned:
- Uncharted Leadership, by Angie Ward
- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter Scazzero

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186. How Relationship Nourishes and Sustains Leaders in Times of Change, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Oct 17, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson talk about the importance of relationship in ministry leadership. They discuss how leaders can fall into the trap of narcissism when they lack deep relationships, leading to a sense of loneliness that they try to fill with success or power. They also explore how relationship is at the heart of adaptive leadership, as leaders must accompany people through change and transformation. The conversation emphasizes the need for healthy relationships both on an individual level and within larger systems, as they are crucial for healing brokenness and nourishing community.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Episode 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership.
"“The story of God is the story of relationship. From the very beginning, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit create human beings in and for relationship. And I think our brokenness is brokenness in and around relationship."
Ep. 82 is a conversation inspired by Chuck DeGroat's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church.

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185. From Sunday Services to Real Transformation, with E.K. Strawser, author of Centering Discipleship Oct 10, 2023

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E.K. Strawser is a co-vocational pastor of Ma Ke Alo o in Honolulu and the author of Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.
We've got a lot of discipleship programs in our churches. But how effective are they? Are they leading to real transformation in people's lives? In this episode, E.K. Strawser discuss how churches can cultivate real transformation in their people's lives.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

E.K. Strawser is a co-vocational pastor of Ma Ke Alo o in Honolulu and the author of Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.
Discipleship, according to E.K. Strawser, is imitating Jesus so that our spiritual confidence increases and our social competence as Christians increases.
Discipleship without mission is discipleship without Christ.
Discipleship has to be local.
When discipleship is peripheral in a church, three things tend to be true:
- Resources and energy are poured primarily into a weekly teaching time.
- People are being moved to a weekly worship service.
- Leadership has a vision for the church (as opposed to a vision for the community).
But when discipleship is central in a church, these three things tend to be true:
- Resources and energy are poured into imitation, providing tools and pathways to help people enter a life of discipleship.
- People are being moved to the community around them.
- Leadership has a vision for renewal in their local community.
E.K. Strawser describes what centered discipleship looks like in her church.
In looking for leaders in E.K. Strawser’s church, they look for “a discipled disciple-maker who has a heart for the community around them and have identified a space of mission and who are inviting others to do this with them.”
Mission-oriented discipleship requires lots of experimentation.
E.K. Strawser says that every discipleship pathway ought to look different in every community and neighborhood, but all of them should reflect the likeness of Christ.
Churches need to look for certain developing marks of maturity in the people engaged in their discipleship pathways in order to know that the pathway they have chosen is actually working.
Four marks of spiritual maturity:
- Character – Are people actually becoming more like Jesus?
- Christlike theology – Are we actually borrowing from Jesus how to think about God and the world?
- Christlike wisdom – Are we becoming people who can navigate the complexities of life well together?
- Being sent – We understand that we are a people sent by God into the world.
As leaders who long to lead people into deep discipleship, our first job is to love the people God has entrusted to us.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

E.K. Strawser:
- Website – www.centeringdiscipleship.com
V3 Movement
Books mentioned:
- Centering Discipleship, by E.K. Strawser
Church Leadership Institute

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

184. Reimagining Discipleship in a Post-COVID World, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Oct 03, 2023

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1In this episode Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the challenges faced by ministry leaders in times of change. They discuss a quote from Kurt Fredrickson that highlights how churches were previously overprogrammed and under-discipled. Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the need for adaptive thinking and creative approaches to discipleship, moving away from traditional programming and towards a mission-focused, community-centered approach. They explore the purpose of discipleship as formation for the sake of mission and the need to reframe our understanding of discipleship in light of these changing times.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Kurt Fredrickson in Episode 103: Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid.
"Churches pre-Covid were over-programmed and under-discipled."

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183. Challenging a Commodifying Culture in Ministry, with Paul Louis Metzger, author of More Than Things Sep 26, 2023

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We live in a world in which it is so easy to demonize and dehumanize people who are not like us. Or we categorize people and forget their humanity.
But that’s the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Jesus humanized people. He treated every human being as a beloved child of God. Jesus treated every individual he encountered as a person.

That’s what we're discussing in this conversation with Paul Louis Metzger, the author of More Than Things: A Personalist Ethics for a Throwaway Culture.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Paul Louis Metzger is professor of Christian theology and theology of culture at Multnomah University and Seminary and the author of More Than Things: A Personalist Ethics for a Throwaway Culture.
We have a tendency in our society to turn people into things.
The issue of treating people as things has become very personal for Paul Louis Metzger ever since his son suffered a traumatic brain injury in a car accident several years ago.
Personhood, according to Paul Louis Metzger, has to do with inviolability, unfathomability, and unrepeatability.
Attributing personhood to one another is a matter of seeking to affirm an individual’s agency, showing them respect, listening to them, and being present with them.
Paul Louis Metzger reflects on the way those with Down’s Syndrome are often thought of as having a lower quality of life, when the opposite often seems to be true. And, yet, the value of their personhood is frequently in question.
Markus Watson reflects on the ways churches tend to “thingify” people, both inside and outside the church.
When we talk about people, communities, and families as giving units, that’s the language of commodification.
People consume, but people should not be reduced to patterns of consumption.
Paul Louis Metzger unpacks the Prodigal Son story as a way of thinking about treating people as persons.
“When we gain a sense of our significance and worth—not because of how big our church is or how well-known we are or whatever the case might be, how many books we sell, how many this or how many that—but because we are loved. We exist because we are loved. That frees pastors up to evangelize better. To be better shepherds. They’re not going to be hired hands or wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

New Wine Institute
Uncommon Good, Uncommon God (Patheos blog)
Books mentioned:
- More Than Things: A Personalist Ethics for a Throwaway Culture, by Paul Louis Metzger
- The Way of Chuang Tzu, by Thomas Merton
- Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God’s Mission, by Markus Watson
- Life of the Beloved, by Henri Nouwen
- Sharing Faith, by Thomas Groome

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182. Engaging with Diverse Voices for a More Faithful Discipleship, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Sep 19, 2023

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the influence of the Enlightenment and individualism on middle-class white individuals, and how this impacts their understanding of faith and community. They emphasize the importance of engaging with different perspectives and reading the Bible in community with people who are not like us in order to break free from these cultural norms and develop a more holistic understanding of spirituality and leadership.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tom Sine in Episode 118: Forecasting and Innovation.
“I think a lot of us in Western culture have allowed the Enlightenment and a very individualistic way of life to become normative, particularly for middle-class white folks.”
Ep. 118 is a conversation inspired by Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen's book, 2020s Foresight.

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181. How Stories Shape Our Spiritual Lives and Leadership, with Jennifer Holberg, author of Nourishing Narratives Sep 12, 2023

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Jennifer Holberg is Professor and Chair of the Department of English at Calvin University and author Nourishing Narratives.
The church gives us stories to imagine ourselves into. Stories shape us. At the same time, pastors and ministry leaders need to recognize that every person in our church brings their own stories. And, so, how can we create space to share and hear one another’s stories—as we are shaped by the story of the gospel?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jennifer Holberg is Professor and Chair of the Department of English at Calvin University and author Nourishing Narratives.
Jennifer Holberg shares what she loves about teaching.
“As people of faith, we have stories that give us more to be hopeful about, more to tell us how beloved we are. And they really counteract a lot of the stories that we have been told or tell ourselves.”
Stories can be positive forces in our lives or they can negatively impact us. It depends on the stories we tell and believe.
According to Jennifer Holberg, how we interpret stories matters.
The stories we tell ourselves about ourselves impact our identity. But Jennifer Holberg holds that we can tell ourselves new stories.
Jennifer Holberg says, “Church communities, if they are functional, give us other stories to imagine ourselves into.”
The Bible gives us many stories to help us understand our lives. As opposed to society, which often only gives one story (wealth, success, etc.).
Pastors, in their teaching, need to understand what stories people are bringing with them into the church.
We need spaces in church for people to tell their stories.
According to Jennifer Holberg, it’s important for all the generations in the church to share their stories with the other generations.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jennifer Holberg:
- Calvin University
- Center fot Faith and Writing
Books mentioned:
- Nourishing Narratives, by Jennifer Holberg
- Evidence that Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell
- The Story of You, by Ian Morgan Cron
Related episodes mentioned:
- Episode 121: Rewrite Your Story, with Ian Morgan Cron, author of The Story of You

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180. The Key Relationships Every Leader Needs, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Sep 05, 2023

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the vital role of relationships in ministry leadership. Tod emphasizes the importance of cultivating partnerships, friendships, and mentorships as essential sources of support and vulnerability. They explore the connection between relationships and self-reflection, particularly in navigating challenging leadership situations. With practical insights and personal anecdotes, this episode offers guidance on building a strong support network for leaders seeking to grow both their outer ministry and inner discipleship. Don't miss this enlightening conversation on the transformative power of relationships in leadership.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tod Bolsinger in Episode 120: Forming Leadership Resilience.
"We need more relationships. If you do nothing else this year, ask yourself, 'Do I have the kinds of relationships that allow me to do vulnerable self-reflection?'"
Ep. 120 is a conversation inspired by Tod Bolsinger's book, Tempered Resilience.

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179. The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim Wilder, author of Renovated Aug 29, 2023

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Jim Wilder is the author Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms and the resident neurotheologian at Life Model Works.
In this episode, Jim Wilder discusses how we become who we are created to be through the lens of neurotheology. In other words, what role does your brain play in forming you into the person you were created to be?

And how can an understanding of how the brain works help us develop environments in our churches that nurture deep spiritual formation among our people and help them both become who they were created to be and fulfill the purpose for which they were created?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jim Wilder is the author Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms and the resident neurotheologian at Life Model Works.
Jim Wilder explains what a “neuro-theologian” is.
Jim Wilder’s book, Renovated, is based on a conference Jim did with Dallas Willard before he passed away.
Spiritual maturity and natural maturity are both rooted in relationship and are part and parcel of each other.
Attachment love is formed with people who are glad to be with us.
Spiritual formation happens as people develop attachment love with one another and with God.
Human beings often lose their sense of peace. To find our way back to peace the brain’s best path is through being thankful.
According to Jim Wilder, “mutual mind” (or intersubjectivity) happens when two peoples subconscious processing begins to line up with each other. Their brains begin to produce the same chemistry, the same thoughts, the same patterns.
Jim Wilder asks: Would God give us the capacity for mutual mind and not make use of it himself?
Spiritual disciplines create the space where mutual mind with God can develop.
According to Jim Wilder, after the Vietnam War, there was a huge professionalization of the clergy, where pastors were now rated on how well they got results in their job, as opposed to developing loving relationships with people.
If salvation is about becoming the person God meant us to be—and God was intelligent—then by being exactly who God is creating you to be, you will accomplish what God wants done at the moment.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Renovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That Transforms, by Jim Wilder
- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter Scazzero
- Shame and Grace, by Lewis Smedes
- Becoming a Face of Grace: Navigating Lasting Relationship with God and Others, by Ed Khouri

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178. Embracing the Future, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Aug 22, 2023

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss a quote by Nicholas Pierce that highlights the challenge of letting go of the past to embrace the future. They explore the work of the Church Leadership Institute in helping leaders navigate the changing world while remaining faithful to their core values. They delve into the concept of adaptive leadership, the difficulty of embracing the unfamiliar, and the importance of relying on God while having hope for the future. They also emphasize the significance of the Lord's Supper as a reminder of Jesus' sacrifice and a foretaste of the future kingdom of God. Overall, this episode offers insights and strategies for church leaders to navigate the tension between the familiar and the unfamiliar as they strive to join God in His current work.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Nicholas Pearce in Episode 130: Pursuing Your Purpose.

"Many people don’t let go of their now to be able to embrace their next, and they find themselves out of sync with the times and seasons of God."
Ep. 130 is a conversation about Nicholas Pearce's book, The Purpose Path.

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177. Exploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon Kiser, Director of Coaching and Training at Fresh Expressions Aug 15, 2023

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Shannon Kiser is Director of Training and Coaching for Fresh Expressions North America and one of the pastors at Riverside Presbyterian Church in Sterling, Virginia.
In this episode, we have a great conversation about how she and the congregation she pastors have experimented with new forms of church, as well as what they've learned in that process. We also discuss how the Church Leadership Institute’s Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort can help you lean into the kind of experimentation that’s necessary when following the Holy Spirit into whatever new expressions of church you’re being led toward.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Shannon Kiser is Director of Training and Coaching for Fresh Expressions North America and one of the pastors at Riverside Presbyterian Church in Sterling, Virginia.
Fresh Expressions and the Church Leadership Institute together are trying to make sense of what it means to be a vital witness in the 21st century.
Fresh Expressions is a movement that comes out of the UK where a traditional and heritage church was experimenting with what it looks like to engage in some experimental missions on the edges while still valuing the inherited church.
Shannon Kiser says, according to Fresh Expressions, we don’t have to give up what we love and cherish about the inherited church to also experiment on the edges.
Shannon Kiser describes how her church began experimenting with new ways of doing ministry, including opening a coffee shop for the community.
A Fresh Expressions kind of ministry as Shannon describes can be messy. The church doesn’t get to control the narrative.
When things get messy, it’s important to be clear on your values so you know when to say yes and when to say no to opportunities that emerge.
According to Shannon Kiser, it is possible for you to connect with a changing culture and yet still live out some of the rhythms and depth of the inherited church that feeds you.
Churches have to cultivate a culture that is more ripe for experimentation, which then creates the field where new and fresh expressions of ministry can more easily grow.
Fresh Expressions teaches as very simple journey. It involves:
Listening to your neighbors
Loving our serving your neighbors based on what you have learned
Building community with your neighbors
Allow a new form of church to emerge
Shannon Kiser explains how the Church Leadership Institutes Adaptive Capacity Cohort help churches engage this process.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
Freash Expressions:
- www.freshexpressions.com
Church Leadership Institute
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort

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176. Building Bridges in a Polarized World, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Aug 08, 2023

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In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson delve into the importance of understanding and empathizing with others' beliefs, especially in times of political and cultural polarization. They discuss the role of churches in bridging divisions and striving for unity, highlighting the need to move away from comfortable spaces and embrace discomfort as an opportunity for growth. With insights from leaders such as Jim Harrington and Allen Hilton, this episode offers valuable perspectives on creating a sense of shalom across diverse backgrounds.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Allen Hilton in Episode 135: Leading Your Church Through Political Division.
“Our shalom job right now—in this place and time—is to get good at being together across difference.”
Ep. 135 is a conversation about Allen Hilton's book, A House United: How the Church Can Save the World.

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175. From Burnout to Resilience, with Jason Young, co-author of Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright Aug 01, 2023

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How can we avoid burnout in ministry?
Jason Young is a keynote speaker, coach, and consultant who helps churches and businesses thrive, and the co-author of Don’t Burn Out, Burn Bright.
In this episode, Jason Young and Markus Watson get real specific about what can lead to burnout in ministry and what we can to do prevent it.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jason Young is a keynote speaker, coach, and consultant who helps churches and businesses thrive, and the co-author of Don’t Burn Out, Burn Bright.
Jason wants to help leaders, not only prevent burnout in ministry, but structure their lives and ministries in such a way that they truly thrive in all areas of life.
“When discouragement creeps in, destruction is nigh.”
According to Jason Young, burnout in ministry leadership is not inevitable.
Control isolates. Control rarely invites.
Staff members want to know two things in their work:
- Will I be successful if I do this?
- What’s in it for me?
Jesus, too, was motivated by what was in it for him. Hebrews says it was “for the joy set before him” that he endured that cross.
Jason Young discusses the connection between entanglements and burnout in ministry.
According to Jason Young, leaders read too much. Maybe leaders need to do less reading.
Sometimes in all our reading and consuming of information, we may begin to forget the voice of God.
In his early ministry years, Markus Watson wanted to attend lots of conferences. In his middle ministry years, Markus took lots of classes. At this stage of his ministry, Markus recognizes that he’s filled his mind with plenty of information; now he wants to pursue life experiences.
Exhaustion and burnout in ministry leadership doesn’t show up suddenly; it creeps in and slowly drains you.
“If God called you to ministry, it’s his. And he would like for you to be openhanded with his ministry because he wants to trust you with more.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Book mentioned:
- Don’t Burn Out, Burn Bright, by Jason Young and Jonathan Malm
Jason Young:
- Catchfiredaily.com
- Drjasonyoung.com
Church Leadership Institute

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174. Addressing Unresolved Pain in Ministry Leadership, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jul 25, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the transformative power of acknowledging and addressing our own pain as leaders. If our pain isn't transformed, it will be transmitted to others, potentially leading to harmful behaviors and dynamics within our ministries and organizations. By developing self-awareness, emotional health, and adaptive capacity, leaders can prioritize their mission over personal needs and avoid unconsciously inflicting pain on those they serve. This insightful conversation offers valuable insights and practical guidance for cultivating a healthy inner life of faithful discipleship and a healthy outer life of ministry leadership.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tod Hall in Episode 136: Healthy Attachment and Spiritual Leadership.

“If our pain isn’t transformed, it’s going to be transmitted.”
Ep. 136 is a conversation about Todd Hall's book, The Connected Life.

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173. The Art of Interpreting Culture, with Justin Bailey, author of Interpreting Your World Jul 18, 2023

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Justin Bailey is associate professor of theology at Dordt University and the author of Interpreting Your World: Five Lenses for Engaging Theology and Culture.

What is culture? Sometimes people say we need to "resist culture." But the language of resistance seems to be rooted in fear—and I don’t think we’re meant to react to our culture from a place of fear.

Maybe engaging with culture as the church requires something else. Maybe what it requires is interpretation. And then, maybe it requires thoughtful response and engagement.

In this episode, Justin Bailey helps us dig into these issues--including a really helpful conversation about cancel culture!
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Justin Bailey is associate professor of theology at Dordt University and the author of Interpreting Your World: Five Lenses for Engaging Theology and Culture.
Justin’s books wants to help people understand their culture in a way that recognizes what isn’t life-giving, while also affirming that which is life-giving, generous, and generative.
Justin Bailey offers two metaphors for understanding culture:
- Culture as a field or soil that nourishes and nurtures certain ideas and practices that can grow.
- Culture as a field of force in which certain things pull, push, and attract one in certain directions.
Justin Bailey reflects on five lenses for interpreting culture:
- Meaning – How am I connected to the world around me?
- Power – Do I have real choices or am I at the mercy of greater powers?
- Ethics – What does it mean to be a good human?
- Religion – How do I face the anxiety of life and the certainty of death?
- Aesthetics – How do I live a life that is generative and beautiful?
Outside the church, the lens that is most often used to interpret culture is the power lens. But if this is the only lens we use, we will miss much of what is going on.
Justin Bailey teaches students to analyze culture theologically in two movements:
- Movement 1 – From Culture
- Movement 2 – For Culture
According to Justin Bailey, part of the work of ministry leadership is to discern, what might God’s Spirit be doing here in this culture to open people up to the Gospel?
Justin Bailey discusses cancellation and complication as ways of responding to challenges within culture.
The danger of an iconoclasm of cancellation is that we put ourselves up on the pedestals in the place of the thing we have dethroned.
An iconoclasm of complication acknowledges that there is more than one story and things are more complicated than they once seemed.
An iconoclasm of complication seeks to contextualize.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Interpreting Your World: Five Lenses for Engaging Theology and Culture, by Justin Bailey
Justin Bailey
- Website
- Twitter

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172. The Courage to Disappoint, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jul 11, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson reflect on a quote from Rich Stearns focusing on courageious leadership, which often means disappointing your own people at a rate they can absorb. The conversation highlights the importance of leaders calling people to their better selves and standing up for what is right, even if it means facing challenges from within their own tribe. Tod Bolsinger also shares his insights on how to develop courage through healthy relationships with partners, friends, and mentors.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rich Stearns in Episode 105: Courageous Leadership.
"Leaders have to make difficult decisions and difficult decisions require courage."
Ep. 105 is a conversation about Rich Stearns' book, Lead Like it Matters to God.
TIMESTAMPS:
[00:01:12] Leadership requires the courage to disappoint your own people in order to fulfill the mission and make necessary changes.
[00:03:28] Leaders must lead people through a process of transformation; without change, they are not needed. To reach the promised land, transformation took 40 years for Moses's people, but he had to be faithful and pass it down to the next generations. Leadership today requires courage to call on the better nature of people and lead them through transformation.
Q&A:
1. What challenges can people-pleasers face when they need to disappoint others, particularly their friends?
Answer: People-pleasers can struggle with the fear of hurting their friends, and may feel an extra sense of obligation to keep them happy.
2. How can people develop courage?
Answer: Surrounding oneself with supportive and encouraging individuals who prioritize the mission over the individual can help develop courage.
3. What is the role of disappointing people in adaptive leadership?
Answer: Adaptive leadership involves making tough decisions that may disappoint one's own people for the sake of achieving a larger goal or mission.
4. How can courage help in leadership?
Answer: Courage is essential in leadership, as it allows leaders to call people to their better selves and stand up for what is right, even if it means facing challenges from their own community.
5. What can "partners" and "friends" offer leaders in challenging situations?
Answer: Partners should be more committed to the mission than to the individual, while friends should care about the person but be willing to provide honest feedback.
6. What is the role of mentors in leadership?
Answer: Mentors play a vital role in helping leaders be the best they can be in service of the larger mission.

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171. Leading Your Ministry as a Dissident Disciple, with Scot McKnight, author of Revelation for the Rest of Us Jul 04, 2023

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If you grew up in the church, you may have spent a lot of time thinking about things like the rapture and the mark of the beast. Or about the Soviet Union’s role in bringing the anti-Christ into the world.
But is that what Revelation is really about? Does Revelation say anything to us today?
Scot McKnight and I discuss his book, Revelation for the Rest of Us--not only what it means to put Revelation in its historical context, but also how Revelation helps us today live as “dissident disciples."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Scot McKnight is professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary and author of Revelation for the Rest of Us.
Scot read a lot of books about the end times when he was a young Christian.
It wasn’t until he studied Jewish apocalyptic literature while working on his Ph.D. that Scot McKnight began to rethink what Revelation really is about.
Revelation for the Rest of Us is not exactly a commentary, but it is meant to show us how to read the book of Revelation theologically.
Scot McKnight explains that Revelation is a first-person account of a series of fantastic visions in which God shows that the suffering people of the world will experience justice, with special focus on the followers of Jesus who are suffering under the Roman Empire.
Revelation tells us that the suffering people of the world are going to experience justice. And God is not asleep. God will awaken, in a sense, to act in this world to bring justice to those who are oppressed.
Scot McKnight says the problem that John is addressing in Revelation is Babylon, or Rome, and its corruptions, and the fact that Babylon is creeping into the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3.
Those who follow the Lamb will by definition become dissidents and resistors to Babylon and its ways.
Revelation is full of either-or language. The dragon is contrasted with the Lamb. Babylon is contrasted with New Jerusalem. Followers of Jesus are contrasted with those who have the mark of the beast.
The marks of Babylon include: idolatry, emphasis on opulence, violence and murder, image and branding, militarism, economic exploitation, arrogance.
Scot McKnight reflects on the ways pastors can lead today in a society that in some ways bears the marks of Babylon.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Scot McKnight:
Books mentioned:
- Revelation for the Rest of Us, by Scot McKnight
- A Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight
- The Second Testament, by Scot McKnight
- Guide to Survival, by Salem Kirban
- The Late Great Planet Earth, by Hal Lindsey
- Left Behind, by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
- Salva

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170. The Overlooked Leadership Skill of Listening, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jun 27, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the idea that listening is often overlooked in leadership, and provide insights on how genuine, deep listening can help leaders become more effective.
It's important to listen to different groups of people, including those being served and those within the congregation, and to listen to God through prayer, worship, and scripture. This form of listening allows leaders to discern the needs of people and, in turn, respond to genuine needs in the world.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson focus on this quote from Jeff Crosby in Episode 96: Crossing Leadership Thresholds.
"It is in the listening--genuine, deep listening--that we can offer our best selves to our organizations."
TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW:
[00:01:27] Listening leads to powerful organizational leadership that responds to genuine needs.
[00:03:04] Listening is key to effective leadership, as it allows for deeper understanding of needs and discernment of how best to serve.
Q&A:
1. Why is deep listening important in leadership?
- Jeff Crosby's quote suggests that listening is often overlooked in favor of speaking and providing answers as a leader. Learning how to listen well allows leaders to go deeper into the pain and needs of others.
2. Who should leaders listen to?
- It is important to listen to different groups of people, including those being served and those within the congregation. He also suggests listening to God through prayer, worship, and scripture.
3. Why do many leaders struggle with listening?
- Many leaders struggle with too many voices and opinions when making decisions. Leaders tend to stop listening and start talking too much, which can be disruptive.
4. What can leaders do to become better listeners?
- Leaders can become better listeners by learning how to listen well, going deeper into the pain and needs of others, and attuning to those around them. This includes listening to the pain and needs of their own people, the needs of the world, and God to discern what they should do.
5. What are some characteristics of the healthiest organizations?
- The healthiest organizations are those that respond to genuine needs in the world, which can only be understood by genuinely listening to people, often including those who feel they do not have a right to articulate their needs.

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169. The Materiality of God's Mission, with Miroslav Volf, author of The Home of God Jun 20, 2023

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Miroslav Volf is the Henry B. Wright Professor of Systematic Theology at Yale Divinity School and the co-author of The Home of God: A Brief Story of Everything.
In this episode, Miroslav Volf and I talk about what it means for this world to be God’s home. And what it means for this world to be our home. And what this means for the mission of the church. And, finally, what should the church do when it feels like this world isn’t our home?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Miroslav Volf is the Henry B. Wright Professor of Systematic Theology at Yale Divinity School and the co-author of The Home of God: A Brief Story of Everything.
The purpose of this book is to sketch the story in which we situate our lives so we can discern the meaning of our lives.
According to Miroslav Volf, creation is God’s home.
God delights in bringing the world to its fullness.
In Revelation, we see God making his home on the earth.
Miroslav Volf reflects on why Christian tradition seems to have lost the idea that God wants to make God’s home here on earth—rather than far away in heaven.
We ought to think in terms of salvation being a matter of matter. According to Miroslav Volf, there is a materiality to salvation.
The world is a home of homes.
Miroslav Volf coined the term dysoikos, which refers to “home that isn’t home.” It expresses the feeling of being alienated, of being a stranger in one’s own home or space.
God redeems us out of our sense of dysoikos, so that we might be made at one with each other, at one with our place, at one with creation, and at one with God.
God invites us out of dysoikos and into the home that God has for us?
Miroslav Volf reflects on how the church is called to navigate a world—a home—that is constantly changing.
We can’t orient ourselves around the old world. And we don’t know how to orient ourselves with a world that hasn’t yet been born.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Miroslav Volf
- Yale Center for Faith and Culture
Books mentioned:
- The Home of God: a Brief Story of Everything, by Miroslav Volf

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168. Recalibrating Leadership Greatness, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jun 13, 2023

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This episode revolves around Ken Blanchard's words from ep. 86, which states that "Great leaders are great because people trust and respect them, not because they have power."
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the idea that true greatness is achieved through earning trust and respect, rather than relying on authority or position of power. They also discuss the importance of adaptive leadership, the need for transformation, and the role of trust in leadership.
Overall, the conversation reflects on the idea of servant leadership modeled by Jesus, where true greatness is measured by the impact one has on others.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Ken Blanchard in Episode 86: Leading Like Jesus.
"Great leaders are great because people trust and respect them, not because they have power.”
Ep. 86 is a conversation about Ken Blanchard's book, Lead Like Jesus.

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW:
[00:02:46] Trust is essential in adaptive leadership to lead people through transformation, but it's not enough. Leaders need to empower and enable their followers to reach their full potential.

[00:05:02] Leadership is about gathering people together and collaborating on what needs to be learned and where to go. The leader's role is to name the transformation process that everyone, especially the leader, will go through.
Q&A:
1. Can anyone be a "great" leader?
Answer: Yes, almost anyone can be a great leader in the sense of earning trust and respect from those being led.
2. What is the importance of trust in leadership?
Answer: Trust is built on technical competence and relational congruence, and is key to effective leadership and taking people through the transformation process.
3. What is necessary for transformation besides trust?
Answer: People must be empowered, cared for, and enabled to become all that God wants them to be.
4. What is true greatness according to this episode?
Answer: True greatness is measured by the impact one has on others, their respect and trust, not by power, acclaim, platforms, clicks, or likes.

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167. Called to Each Other, with Claude Alexander, author of Becoming the Church Jun 06, 2023

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Claude Alexander is senior pastor of The Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina and the author of Becoming the Church: God’s People in Purpose and Power.

The church has never been perfect.
It has always been filled broken people, sinful people, silly people, selfish people, violent people, manipulative people, mistaken people, intrusive people, rough-around-the edges people.
All kinds of people. Including good people, kind people, compassionate people, people of justice.
The church, we might say, is made of a “becoming” people.
That’s what Bishop Claude Alexander and Markus Watson discuss in this episode, focusing on what it means to be a people who, not only are the church, but who are continuing to become the church in all the fullness of who the church is meant to be.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Bishop Claude Alexander is senior pastor of The Park Church in Charlotte, North Carolina and the author of Becoming the Church: God’s People in Purpose and Power.
Claude Alexander suggests there is a tendency to separate Jesus from the church. But you can’t separate them.
We need to temper our expectation that the church is a perfect product.
The Church is essentially a people in the process of becoming.
Claude Alexander describes Peter and Thomas as being “dechurched” after the death of Jesus.
Churches need to do a better job of discipling people before they become dechurched.
Many churches feel marginalized and decentered in Western society today. But that is not a new experience for churches composed of racial and ethnic minorities.
Our call in Christ, according to Claude Alexander, calls us to each other in the complexity of our diversity.
Claude Alexander discusses the ways the apostles had to adapt in the early church, focusing especially on Acts 6.
It was because of their obedience to what they knew that the apostles were able to seize later opportunities that God had for them.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Claude Alexander:
Books mentioned:
- Becoming the Church: God’s People in Purpose and Power, by Claude Alexander
- Anonymous: Jesus’ Hidden Years…and Yours, by Alicia Britt Chole

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166. The Church's Love Affair with Power, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 30, 2023

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On this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the issue of power and the church's love affair with it, which is exceedingly harmful, especially considering our faith's cornerstone, the Suffering Servant.
Tod and Markus emphasize the importance of adopting a leadership model that is reflective of Jesus and prioritizes shared leadership. They also highlight the struggle for power and control that often comes with leadership, but Jesus's life and teachings resist the idea of lording over others in a leadership position.
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Episode 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership.
"There’s been this strange collusion and love affair with power that the church has had in general—which is interesting given that our faith is centered on the Crucified One, the Suffering Servant."
Ep. 82 is a conversation about Chuck DeGroat's book, When Narcissism Comes to Church.
TIMESTAMPS:
[00:01:31] Leadership is not about lording over others; even Jesus' closest disciples struggled with this temptation.
[00:03:12] Leadership should reflect Jesus and not be built on desires for power and control. Bad leaders are the problem and good shepherds are needed.
[00:06:27] Text summary: Chuck de Grote comments on the church's love affair with power despite being centered on the suffering servant.
Q&A:
1. What is the "Suffering Servant" leadership style and what does it require?
Answer: The "Suffering Servant" leadership style requires sharing and adaptivity.
2. What is the importance of the concept of power in ministry leadership?
Answer: The topic of power is one of the most deeply rooted challenges of being human, particularly for those in positions of authority, and it is essential for leaders to take it seriously and see it as a lifelong area for personal growth and development.
3. How does the idea of being like God relate to the desire for power?
Answer: The idea of being like God was the first temptation, according to the Genesis story, and the desire for power is rooted in a deep human awareness of vulnerability.
4. What is Chuck DeGroat's quote about the church's relationship with power?
Answer: Chuck DeGroat notes that the church has a "love affair" with power, which is interesting given that faith is centered on the Suffering Servant.
5. What is Jesus' view on lording over others in leadership roles?
Answer: Jesus spoke out against the idea of lording over others in leadership roles and emphasized the importance of servant leadership.

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165. The Value of a Low Anthropology, with David Zahl, author of Low Anthropology May 23, 2023

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David Zahl is founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries and the author of Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself).
One of the hardest lessons I’ve had to learn is that people are not always going to look out for what’s best for one another--or for me. In fact, sometimes people are going to outright try to tear each other down.
But our expectation is often that people would be good--an expectation that David Zahl says is rooted in a high anthropology.
But maybe what we need is a low anthropology—a way of understanding humanity as being essentially limited and broken and focused on their own good.
That sounds depressing. But David Zahl makes the case that a low anthropology actually helps us lead in a way that is more gracious and brings about more healing for people who are broken—including ourselves.
THIS EPISODES'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

David Zahl is founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries and the author of Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself).
One’s anthropology refers essentially to one’s view of human nature.
According to David Zahl, a high anthropology views human beings as prone to doing great things and bringing about positive transformation. Low anthropology views humanity as inherently limited, compromised, and is perhaps a more sober view of humanity.
A high anthropology tends to breed a sense of entitlement in people.
A low anthropology puts everyone on a level playing field. We are all broken.
David Zahl believes a low anthropology is a doorway to talking about grace.
The three pillars of a low anthropology are:
- Limitation – There is a God and it’s not you.
- Doubleness – We are a bundle of competing motivations.
- Self-centeredness – We often want what’s bad for us or what comes at a cost for other people.
David Zahl reflects on the ways that limitation, doubleness, and self-centeredness are experienced in churches.
Ultimately, a low anthropology is a biblical anthropology.
A low anthropology, according to David Zahl, says that people are fundamentally in need of help from other people and from God.
A low anthropology allows us to encourage people in their giftings.
A low anthropology goes hand in hand with a high Christology.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

David Zahl:
- Mockingbird website - https://mbird.com/
- Mockingcast podcast - https://mbird.com/category/the-mockingcast/
Books mentioned:
- Low Anthropology, by David Zahl
- Seculosity, by David Zahl

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164. Failure Moves Us Deeper, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 16, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Michael MacKenzie in Episode 122: Burned Out and Broken.
“Success is more dangerous for the human soul than failure.”
Ep. 122 is a conversation about Michael MacKenzie's book, Don't Blow Up Your Ministry.

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163. You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost, with Steve Carter, author of The Thing Beneath the Thing May 09, 2023

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What do you do when you’re set up to be the successor of the lead pastor of one of the biggest and most well-known churches in the world and suddenly everything comes crashing down?
What do you do when it becomes clear that the beloved pastor you were meant to follow has been found to be abusive toward women—and the church’s leadership fails to take responsibility for the systems that allowed that?

What do you do?

This is exactly the situation that Steve Carter faced. Steve was set to succeed Bill Hybels at Willow Creek Church in Chicago. And when news broke of the things Hybels had done, Steve had to make a decision.
Would he stay and become complicit in the system that made Hybels’ abuse possible? Or would he step away and let go of everything that to this point had given him a sense of value and meaning?
Today, Steve Carter is the pastor of Forest City Church outside Chicago And the author of The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It).
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Steve Carter and Markus Watson walked the Camino de Santiago together in October 2022 as part of the Journey Home cohort led by Jon Huckins.
Steve Carter met Bill Hybels while interning with Rob Bell.
Steve joined the staff of Willow Creek Church and was soon tapped to succeed Bill Hybels as pastor of the church.
Eventually, Steve found out (from his book editor!) that a story was going to come out about Bill Hybels.
Ultimately, Steve resigned from Willow Creek because the story of Bill Hybels’ history of abuse was being mishandled by the leadership. Steve felt that by staying he would have been complicit.
Leaving Willow Creek was incredibly difficult and painful for Steve.
It was while walking the Camino de Santiago that Steve Carter was finally able to say, “I love Bill Hybels.”
Markus Watson shares about his experience of healing and transformation and healing while on the Camino de Santiago.
According to Steve Carter, we need to respond to the reality of suffering in three ways:
- Past: Practice forgiveness for what has happened.
- Present: Rely on your core values—because you’re not going to make everyone happy.
- Future: Prepare and practice for what may come.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Steve Carter:
- Forest City Church
- Craft and Character podcast
Books mentioned:
- The Thing Beneath the Thing, by Steve Carter
Journey Home: A Pilgrimmage for Men

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162. Transform Your Church Through Story, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson May 02, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Ian Morgan Cron in Episode 121: The Story of You.
"All transformation begins with story transformation."
Ep. 121 is a conversation about Ian Morgan Cron's book, The Story of You.

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161. Preaching for Deep Connection, with Lisa Lamb, author of Resonate Apr 25, 2023

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Lisa Lamb is professor of preaching and theology at St. Paul’s Theological College and the author of Resonate: How to Preach for Deep Connection.

Sometimes I wonder how effective sermons are. As a receiver of sermons, I probably don’t remember 99% of the sermons I’ve heard. At the same time, some sermons I’ve heard have been life-changing for me.

The question for us preachers is: How do we preach sermons that connect? Sermons that make an impact? Sermons that truly resonate?

Lisa Lamb helps us answer these questions.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Lisa Lamb is professor of preaching and theology at St. Paul’s Theological College and other schools in Malaysia and India, and the author of Resonate: How to Preach for Deep Connection.
Lisa shares what she loves about preaching.
The preaching framework is grounded in verbs. What kinds of verbs are being used in the sermon and in which person are they being spoken?
Preaching in the first person singular gives the congregation a sense who the preacher is and where the preacher is coming from.
Second person singular speech is powerful speech. It blesses and exhorts.
Third person singular is the proclaimer. Lisa Lamb says that speaking in the third person is where we declare God’s goodness.
Third person plural says, “These things are true.”
Lisa Lamb explains how the past, present, and future tenses impact a sermon.
We don’t need to hit all these aspects in every sermon. But Lisa Lamb suggests looking back over several months to see if you’ve spoken in all these ways.
The indicative form is simply naming reality.
The subjunctive form asks, “What if?”
The imperative form—the command—can lead people in very life-giving ways.
Lisa Lamb reflects on how preaching can help congregations wrestle with competing values.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Resonate: How to Preach for Deep Connection, by Lisa Lamb
Paraclete Mission Associates
- Rich and Lisa Lamb page

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

160. A Church That Demonstrates God's Goodness, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Apr 18, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot Mcknight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse.
"A tov pastor, tov leaders, a tov church does not abuse power, does not sexually abuse women, does not sexually abuse children.... Tov people don't do these things."
Ep. 92 is a conversation with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer about their book, A Church Called Tov.

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159. Biblical Violence and the Mission of God, with Matthew Lynch, author of Flood and Fury Apr 11, 2023

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Matthew Lynch is associate professor of Old Testament at Regent College and the author of Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God.
In this episode, helps us understand how biblical stories of violence fit into the grand arc of the biblical narrative, as well as how these stories inform our work as ministry leaders.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Matthew Lynch is associate professor of Old Testament at Regent College and the author of Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God.
Matthew Lynch’s book focuses on two stories of violence in particular: the Flood and the Conquest of Canaan.
We need to read the Bible through the lens of Genesis 1.
Matthew Lynch uses “shalom” as a catchall for “right-relating wholeness before and with God.”
Violence is a direct attack on the shalom that characterizes the good creation of God.
Violence has no essential or primordial place in creation. It’s not part of creation’s charter.
Genesis 6 tells us that before God sent the flood, the world was already ruined because violence filled the earth.
Joshua and the Canaan’s conquest is a decidedly “in-between” story.
Canaan had been an old Egyptian outpost manned by warlords.
Joshua casts a vision of a counterculture to the imperial system that Israel is finally getting out from under.
Matthew Lynch unpacks the challenging command of God in Joshua to “completely destroy” the Canaanites.
Jericho was more of a military outpost than a city. There wouldn’t have been many women and children.
According to Matthew Lynch, the framework of scripture is decidedly shalom-oriented.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God
Matthew Lynch:
- Regent College faculty page
- OnScript podcast

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158. Looking Over the Church's Fence, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Apr 04, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Tom Sine in Episode 118: Forecasting and Innovation.
“I ache because churches rarely even look over the fence in their own communities to the new innovation going on.”

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157. Seamless Leadership, with Steven Garber, author of The Seamless Life Mar 28, 2023

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Steven Garber is Senior Fellow for Vocation and the Common Good at the M.J. Murdoch Charitable Trust and author of The Seamless Life.
In this episode, Steven Garber helps us reflect on some important leadership questions. What does it mean to live a life of deep coherence? What does it mean to live a life in which every part of our life is a reflection of and an expression of our whole life? And why do we as leaders need to live seamless lives?

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Steven Garber is Senior Fellow for Vocation and the Common Good at the M.J. Murdoch Charitable Trust and author of The Seamless Life.
To think of our lives as “incoherent” is to live our lives in compartments. But Steven Garber says we don’t have to choose, for example, between being a scientist and a Christian. Both are part of our coherent self.
John Newton, the slave trader who wrote “Amazing Grace,” for many years lived a compartmentalized incoherent life.
When Steven Garber was a young man discovering the invitation to “coherence” in his life, he realized that he was going to have to rethink how he thought about girls!
Tamim is the Hebrew word for integrity or coherence.
Seamlessness has to do with identity.
The question of vocation, according to Steven Garber, always begins with Who am I? And the next question is Why am I?
Vocation is integral (not incidental) to the missio dei, to the very meaning of God’s work in the world.
Pastors can begin to live more integral and seamless lives by being mindful of the teachers they listen to and follow. Are our teachers, not only speaking words of coherence, but living lives of coherence and seamlessness?

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Website:
- Washington Institute for Faith, Vocation, and Culture
Books mentioned:
- The Seamless Life, by Steve Garber
- Visions of Vocation, by Steve Garber
- Captain Blood, by Rafael Sabatini
Authors mentioned:
Related episodes:
- Episode 48: Integrity and Coherence in Leadership, with Lisa Slayton, CEO of Tamim Partners
- Episode 77: To Know the World and Still Love It, with Steven Garber, author of Visions of Vocation

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156. The Power of Being on Mission Together, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Mar 21, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Make Work Matter, by Michaela O'Donnell.
"I am not on a solo mission from God. I am part of a larger collective of people who get to join in on God’s big mission of redemption creatively working in anticipation of all that God is doing to make us new."

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155. Leadership and Looking to the Future, with Tom Sine, co-author of 2020s Foresight Mar 14, 2023

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Tom Sine’s most recent book (co-authored with Dwight Friesen) is 2020s Foresight: Three Vital Practices for Thriving in a Decade of Accelerating Change.
Tom Sine has been doing future forecasting for many decades and has helped lots of churches think about what is happening in their communities now so that they can make plans as they anticipate what is coming in the next several years.
Tom also thinks a lot about the younger generations and how their presence and activity will shape our society in the coming years and decades. And what I love about Tom’s knowledge of the younger generations is that it is based not only on research, but on relationships.
We talk about all of this in this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tom Sine’s most recent book (co-authored with Dwight Friesen) is 2020s Foresight: Three Vital Practices for Thriving in a Decade of Accelerating Change.
For 28 years, Tom taught a course at Fuller Theological Seminary’s Seattle extension called “Christian World View in Rapidly Changing Times.”
Tom Sine explains why churches today have a difficult time connecting with Gen Y and Gen Z.
Tom shares an example of young people who made a difference in their community.
Younger generations may be dropping off from the church because they are more concerned about social issues. And they may not see the church engaging in the issues that matter to them.
To begin engaging in forecasting, it is helpful to talk to business leaders in our churches.
Tom Sine says we need to move beyond charity to real serious neighborhood empowerment.
Gen Y and Gen Z will not be able to afford homes as nice as their parents.
Tom Sine recommends we come up with creative living arrangements.
On May 10, 2023, Tom Sine will be doing a webinar together with Tod Bolsinger titled, "Leadership and the Challenges Facing our Neighbors Today and Tomorrow: Your Community’s Pain, Your Calling.” Registration info is coming soon.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- 2020s Foresight: Three Vital Practices for Thriving in a Decade of Accelerating Change, by Ton Sine and Dwight Friesen
- Live Like You Give a Damn: Join the Changemaking Celebration, by Tom Sine
Blog:
- Christine Sine - www.godspacelight.com
Related episodes:
- Episode 118: Forecasting and Innovation, with Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen, co-authors of 2020s Foresight

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

154. What Does Flourishing Leadership Require? A Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Mar 07, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Strong and Weak, by Andy Crouch.
“Flourishing requires us to embrace both authority and vulnerability, both capacity and frailty--even, at least in this broken world, both life and death.”

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

153. Leadership in a Time of Declining Church Attendance, with Thom Rainer, author of I Believe Feb 28, 2023

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Thom Rainer is the CEO of Church Answers and the author of many books, including I Believe: A Concise Guide to the Essentials of the Christian Faith.
In this episode, Thom Rainer discusses an article he wrote in which he said we need to rethink how we categorize churches, now that the median church size is 65—meaning 50% of churches in the U.S. have fewer than 65 people in church every Sunday!

What does this decline mean and how should we lead in this strange new world?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Thom Rainer is the CEO of Church Answers and the author of many books, including I Believe: A Concise Guide to the Essentials of the Christian Faith.
Thom Rainer wrote an article titled “The New Very Large Church.”
Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this article in Episode 150: The New Normal of Church Attendance.
Thom Rainer’s article says that since the pandemic, here is how churches ought to be categorized:
- Under 50 in attendance: smaller churches
- 51-99: mid-size churches
- 100-249: large churches
- 250 and above: larger churches
92% of church in the U.S. today have less than 250 people in attendance each week.
According to Thom Rainer, the pandemic gave “cultural Christians” permission to stop attending church or attend church less frequently.
Commitment to church attendance has declined even among those who previously had been very committed to their church.
The church is called to be not only the church gathered, but also the church going.
Thom Rainer notes that receptivity to Christianity and to simple invitations to church seem to be higher than ever.
Thom Rainer discusses the skills a pastor needs as the church’s attendance declines.
The number of megachurches in America has not increased for the past 15 years.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Book mentioned:
- I Believe: A Concise Guide to the Essentials of the Christian Faith, by Thom Rainer
Article:
- “The New Very Large Church,” by Thom Rainer
Church Answers
Know Your Community demographic report
Related episodes:
- Episode 150: The New Normal of Church Attendance, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

152. When the Leader is a Peacemonger, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Feb 21, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from A Failure of Nerve, by Edwin Friedman.
“In any type of institution whatsoever, when a self-directed, imaginative, energetic, or creative member is being consistently frustrated and sabotaged rather than encouraged and supported, what will turn out to be true one hundred percent of the time, regardless of whether the disrupters are supervisors, subordinates, or peers, is that the person at the very top of that institution is a peace-monger.”

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

151. How Did God Intend Us to Experience Sabbath? with Ruth Haley Barton, author of Rhythms of Work and Rest Feb 14, 2023

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Ruth Haley Barton is the Founder and Chief Essence Officer of the Transforming Center and the author of Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest.
There is so much to do as pastors and leaders. And if I’m going to get everything done, there’s very little time to rest. Or if I do take some time to rest, work and responsibility are just gonna sneak their way into that time of rest, anyway.
In this episode, Ruth Haley Barton and I ask: How am I called and invited to practice this gift of Sabbath? And how will a Sabbath practice impact, not only my personal life, but also my life of ministry leadership?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ruth Haley Barton is the Founder and Chief Essence Officer of the Transforming Center and the author of Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest.
As a child, Ruth Haley Barton’s family practiced Sabbath in a very legalistic way, but stopped practicing the Sabbath as a young adult. Ruth began practicing the Sabbath in her forties.
Sabbath involves stopping, resisting, and delighting.
Ruth Haley Barton says there is an edginess to Sabbath in that it is designed in part to release us from whatever oppresses us.
Sabbath involves doing the kinds of things that bring us delight.
Sabbath is not the same thing as solitude and silence. Sabbath is a communal practice.
Ruth Haley Barton explains how she navigated implementing the Sabbath when her kids were teenagers.
Churches need to consider whether they encourage people—including their clergy—to practice the Sabbath.
It is helpful for a church staff to take Sabbath together.
If pastors would rest for twenty-four hours once a week, they would bring a healthier quality of leadership to their churches.
Ruth Haley Barton points out that the Sabbath gives us an opportunity to trust God with what is bothering us.
Ruth Haley Barton offers some suggestions for how we can begin to dip our toes into a regular Sabbath practice.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest, by Ruth Haley Barton
Transforming Center
Church Leadership Institute
Related episode:
- Ep. 70: The Subversiveness of Sabbath, with A.J. Swoboda

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

150. The New Normal of Church Attendance, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Feb 07, 2023

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How does your church attendance compare? Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss an article by Thom Rainer titled "The New Very Large Church."

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

149. Ministry Leadership in a Racialized Society, with David Swanson, author of Rediscipling the White Church Jan 31, 2023

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David Swanson is pastor of New Community Covenant Church in Chicago and the author Rediscipling the White Church.
In this episode, David Swanson helps us think, first, about the challenges of leading our people toward racial healing and equity, and, second, about the kinds of leadership and practices that can help us form our people to be people of healing and equity.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

David Swanson is pastor of New Community Covenant Church in Chicago and the author Rediscipling the White Church.
Churches made up of different races and ethnicities often read the Bible differently, and often in ways that don’t lead us toward one another.
According to David Swanson, there are ways in which our churches have conformed to the patterns of our racialized society.
David Swanson realized the church needed a different kind of discipleship, the kind that would bring people of different races together.
David intentionally planted his church to be an integrated, multi-racial church.
A disciple is someone who follows Jesus in order to become like Jesus to do what Jesus does.
David Swanson describes the role of community in overcoming racial injustice.
We are called to engage in spiritual practices communally (such as Holy Communion) in ways that bring healing and reconciliation.
We can disciple our children by having challenging conversations about race and racism. Churches can provide resources for these conversations.
Over time, children’s neutral observations about the color of a person’s skin begin to take on a moral weight.
David Swanson encourages white pastors to pray for authentic cross-racial friendships.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Rediscipling the White Church, by David Swanson
David Swanson
- Website – www.dwswanson.com
Church Leadership Institute

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

148. Discerning What's Essential, with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jan 24, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Essentialism, by Greg McKeown:
“Many capable people are kept from getting to the next level of contribution because they can’t let go of the belief that everything is important. An Essentialist has learned to tell the difference between what is truly important and everything else.”

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

147. Is Innovation Inherently Good? with Andrew Root, author of The Church After Innovation Jan 17, 2023

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Andrew Root is the Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary and author of The Church After Innovation.
In this conversation, Andrew Root, the author of The Church After Innovation, invites us to think critically about innovation. We live in a world in which innovation is held up as almost an ethical good in and of itself. Andrew helps us think about where the drive to innovate in our culture comes from and helps us reflect on our own motivations as we work to innovate in our own churches and ministries.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Andrew Root is the Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary and author of The Church After Innovation.
“Innovation” has, in recent been years, been held up as an inherently good thing. Andrew Root started to wonder why.
According to Max Weber, capitalism is rooted in a theological belief, sometimes called the Protestant work ethic.
Hard work as an ethic in and of itself is fairly new in human history.
Andy Root explains what he means by the “contradiction of capitalism.”
Our focus on innovation ultimately makes the self the end-all be-all of our work.
Mission and innovation often get confused for each other in the church.
Unceasing growth is not always good.
Andy Root says one of the reasons we want innovation and entrepreneurship is because they feel like strategies for control. And the church feels out of control.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Church After Innovation, by Andrew Root
Andrew Root:
- Website – www.andrewroot.org
Related Resources:
- Engaging God's Mission online course

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

146. Leadership for the Long Haul, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson Jan 10, 2023

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Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Leadership Without Easy Answers, by Ronald Heifetz:
"In a crisis we tend to look for the wrong kind of leadership...in short, someone who can make hard problems simple. But problems like (we have been facing) are not simple.... Making progress on these problems demands not just someone who provides answers from on high but changes in our attitudes, behavior, and values. To meet challenges such as these, we need a different idea of leadership...."

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145. Championing Leadership from the Margins, with Beth Birmingham and Eeva Sallinen Simard, authors of Cultures of Belonging Jan 03, 2023

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Beth Birmingham and Eeva Sallinen Simard are the authors of Creating Cultures of Belonging: Cultivating Organizations Where Women and Men Thrive.
In this episode, we discuss what it means for churches and organizations to develop cultures of belonging. Not just cultures of inclusion, but cultures in which those who tend to be on margins actually have the opportunity to shape the church or organization when they are in positions of leadership.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Beth Birmingham and Eeva Sallinen Simard are the authors of Creating Cultures of Belonging: Cultivating Organizations Where Women and Men Thrive.
Beth Birmingham is the facilitator for the Christian Alliance for Inclusive Development and professor at Eastern University.
Eeva Sallinen Simard is project director at World Relief.
While missional organizations largely serve women and children and are staffed largely by women, only about 15% of executive leadership are women.
Eeva Sallinnen Simard tells us that in the largest NGOs in the U.S., only 5% of executive leadership are women.
Beth Birmingham says we have adopted a toxic leadership model in missional spaces that contradicts the teaching of scripture.
Missional organizations tend to demand a very masculine form of leadership.
Eeva Sallinen Simard explains that a culture of belonging is one that not only welcomes women and minorities, but also allows them to contribute to the development of and even change the organization.
To change a systemic problem, you need a systems approach.
Beth Birmingham suggests that, rather than spending leadership development funds on experienced senior male leaders, missional organizations should spend those funds on young women still learning and growing in their leadership.
Men in leadership tend to get uncomfortable with conversations about inclusion, often asking themselves, “What does this mean for me?”
Eeva Sallinen Simard says organizations need to make declarative statements about the imago dei in all people and their calling to lead.
Organizations that don’t believe women can be called to roles of leadership should be forthcoming with that information so that women who want to grow in their leadership can serve in a place where their calling will be affirmed.
Beth Birmingham believe that when we humble ourselves and surrender our agendas, God will pour out his blessing in other ways.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Creating Cultures of Belonging, by Beth Birmingham and Eeva Sallinnen Simard
Beth Birmingham:
- LinkedIn
- Instagram
Eeva Sallinen Simard:
- LinkedIn
- Instagram
The Christian Alliance for Inclusive Development
Church Leadership Institute
Related episodes:
- Ep 28: Empowering Women in Ministry, with Tara Beth Leach
- Ep 105: Courageous

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

144. Is the Church Failing to Make Disciples?, with Tod Bolsinger, Executive Director of the Church Leadership Institute Dec 20, 2022

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Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute and the author of five books, including Canoeing the Mountains and Tempered Resilience.
In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson reflect on the reality that many people have not returned to the church in our post-pandemic world. Is there anything about how we have done church in the past that has failed to form the kind of people who are committed to living a life of discipleship in community with other Jesus-followers? And if so, what can we do differently now?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute and the author of five books, including Canoeing the Mountains and Tempered Resilience.
Tod shares how the pandemic disrupted his work with the Church Leadership Institute and how he had to adapt.
The pandemic revealed a crisis of discipleship within the church.
Tod Bolsinger argues that many people haven’t returned to church after the pandemic because the church doesn’t feel that different from the world to them.
According to Tod Bolsinger, many churches have confused discipleship with training people for church ministry.
Tod Bolsinger says we have confused institutional service with spiritual formation.
Leaders and pastors need to embrace the humility of not knowing.
Transformation in churches starts with the leader, but the leader can’t do it alone.
Spiritual Life and Leadership will be adding new short 6-10 minute episodes every other week. These episodes will be called “Quick Conversations for the Long Haul of Leadership.”
Each of these episodes will be a brief conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson focusing on a single quote or question or thought.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
- Tempered Resilience, by Tod Bolsinger
Fuller Seminary Church Leadership Institute

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

143. How the Church Can Respond to Immigration, with Karen Gonzalez, author of Beyond Welcome Dec 06, 2022

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Karen Gonzalez is an immigration advocate and the author of Beyond Welcome: Centering Immigrants in Our Christian Response to Immigration. In this episode, Karen Gonzalez, helps us understand both the challenges of immigration and how we, the church, can love and bless those who have immigrated in ways that are healthy and lifegiving for everyone.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Karen Gonzalez is an immigration advocate and the author of Beyond Welcome: Centering Immigrants in Our Christian Response to Immigration.
Karen Gonzalez shares the story of how her understanding of immigration developed over time.
Church ministries that focus on immigration don’t generally center on the immigrants; they tend to focus on the church and its people.
Think about the words that you use and whether your words are creating an “us and them” or just creating a “we.”
The words we use can sometimes be unintentionally dehumanizing.
Hospitality should not be one-directional—from the non-immigrant to the immigrant. Hospitality should be mutual, flowing in both directions.
Karen Gonzalez shares the story of a woman who said she appreciates Mother Mary because Mary knows what it feels like to have her son killed by the state—which is how this woman’s son died, too.
We all do theology from somewhere.
Karen Gonzalez describes the richness that those who are not immigrants can experience when they learn from the experiences of those who are immigrants.
Ministry leaders should reflect on where their understanding of immigration comes from.
Karen Gonzalez offers some ways that people and churches can help immigrants and refugees.
To find out how to best help immigrants visit World Relief, International Rescue Committee, Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Services, and Church World Service.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Karen Gonzalez:
- Twitter
- Instagram
Books mentioned:
- Beyond Welcome, by Karen Gonzalez
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
Immigration Resources:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

142. Navigating the 7 Stages of Transition, with D. Michael Lindsay, author of Hinge Moments Nov 22, 2022

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D. Michael Lindsay is the author of Hinge Moments: Making the Most of Life’s Transitions and the president of Taylor University in Upland, Indiana.
In this episode, D. Michael Lindsay unpacks the seven stages of transition and helps us understand how to navigate those stages well--both personally and corporately.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

D. Michael Lindsay is the author of Hinge Moments: Making the Most of Life’s Transitions and the president of Taylor University in Upland, Indiana.
D. Michael Lindsay shares the story of losing his cousin, which is the event that got him thinking about hinge moments.
Hinge Moments is about: How do you pay attention to the ways God is trying to get your attention? And how can you be preparing for the next hinge moment in your life?
We live millions of minutes. But we only have a handful of minutes in our lives that are true inflection points.
According to D. Michael Lindsay, change happens in an instant, while transition takes place over a longer period of time.
The pandemic represents a societal hinge moment.
The seven stages of navigating transition are:
- Discernment
- Anticipation
- Intersection
- Landing
- Integration
- Inspiration
- Realization
D. Michael Lindsay encourages his students that failure is almost never final.
Faith plays an important role in navigating transition.
Spiritual practices are incredibly helpful when navigating hinge moments.
D. Michael Lindsay shares examples of practices that can be helpful during times of transition.
D. Michael Lindsay suggests that for churches and ministry leaders, the pandemic has been a little ice age (as opposed to a blizzard or a winter).

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Hinge Moments: Making the Most of Life's Transitions, by D. Michael Lindsay
Resources:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

141. Being Fully Yourself in Leadership, with Sarah Bereza, author of Professional Christian Nov 08, 2022

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Sarah Bereza is the author of Professional Christian: Being Fully Yourself in the Spotlight of Public Ministry and directs a music program at United Methodist Church.
It can be really challenging to really be yourself when you're a pastor or ministry leader. There is a pressure to perform and to present yourself in an ideal sort of way. But putting on a false front can be exhausting.
In this episode, Sarah Bereza unpacks how we can fully be ourselves even as we lead in ministry.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Sarah Bereza is the author of Professional Christian: Being Fully Yourself in the Spotlight of Public Ministry and directs a music program at United Methodist Church.
It can be really hard for people in the professional ministry space to be fully themselves.
Markus Watson shares the story of the first time anyone ever called him “Pastor.”
To be more and more like Christ also becoming more and more fully ourselves.
Sarah Bereza helps us understand how we can be our true selves in a worship service—even if we don’t feel like being there that day.
When we don’t acknowledge, at least to ourselves, what is going on inside us we can end up performing, even faking, when leading a worship service.
Sarah Bereza shares that, depending on the context and relationships, it can be ok for the pastor to be honest with their congregation when he or she isn’t feeling great in a worship service.
Sarah Bereza explains the difference between authenticity, sincerity, and being fully yourself.
The church seems to be experiencing a crisis of discipleship. Sarah Bereza helps us understand that the way we help our people become true disciples of Jesus is through community.
To find out more about Sarah Bereza, visit www.sarah-bereza.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Professional Christian, by Sarah Bereza
Sarah Bereza:
- Website – www.sarah-bereza.com
Church Leadership Institute
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

140. Bathed in Grace, with Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke, authors of Having the Mind of Christ Oct 25, 2022

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Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke are the authors Having the Mind of Christ: 8 Axioms to Cultivate a Robust Faithand pastors of The Table in Indianapolis. So often the Christian life generally and Christian leadership specifically is oriented toward performance. But in this conversation, Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke remind us that our spiritual life and our leadership is bathed in grace.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke are the authors Having the Mind of Christ: 8 Axioms to Cultivate a Robust Faithand pastors of The Table in Indianapolis.
The world has changed tremendously in the past seven years.
Deconstruction is causing people to rethink the faith that they inherited.
Everyone views the world through a paradigm, like a pair of glasses. We need to learn to not only see through our glasses, but see our glasses. We need to become aware of the paradigm by which we view the world.
When we learn to see with other glasses, we can lead with more curiosity.
We underrate the value of curiosity.
Whereas we often think God “shows up” in places, we are invited to recognize that God is already active and at work in the places where we are.
Our leadership grows when we recognize that God meets us in the midst of our messiness.
An axiom is a statement that is considered to be self-evidently true. The axioms in Having the Mind of Christ are truths by which Jesus seems to have lived.
It is important for us recognize the power we carry with us, especially for white male leaders.
Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke offer three steps to help us live into these truths:
- Compassionate awareness
- Creative alignment
- Cooperative action
Our attempts to live out God’s love—even our poor attempts—are bathed in grace.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Gravity Leadership
- www.gravityleadership.com
The Table
- www.thetableindy.org
Books mentioned:
- Having the Mind of Christ: 8 Axioms to Cultivate a Robust Faithby Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke
Social Media:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

139. Disequilibrium and the Mission of God, with Markus Watson Oct 11, 2022

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Eric Hoffman said, “To dispose a soul to action, we must upset its equilibrium.” In this episode, we’re going to talk about the state of disequilibrium that so many of us find ourselves in—what used to work in church leadership and ministry doesn’t seem to work anymore. And we’re going to talk about why that disequilibrium is actually a gift.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

We live in a time of great disequilibrium.
When we talking about disequilibrium, it is helpful to think of it in the context of a “complex adaptive system.”
A complex adaptive system is a network of organisms, relationships, and connections that interact in such a way as to maintain some kind of balance.
Complex adaptive systems want to remain in a state of equilibrium.
Disequilibrium happens when something in the system changes.
The dodo bird went extinct because it had lived in a state of equilibrium for so long that it couldn't survive changes in its system.
In Surfing the Edge of Chaos, the authors argue that "prolonged equilibrium is a precursor to death."
But when a system experiences disequilibrium, it has the opportunity to become stronger, more resilient, and healthier.
For about the past 1700 hundred years, the church in the West has existed in a state of relative equilibrium.
But the culture changed and now the church exists in a state of disequilibrium.
The church needs to embrace the disequilibrium because that will make it stronger, more resilient and healthier.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Books mentioned:

Surfing the Edge of Chaos, by Richard Pascale, Mark Milleman, and Linda Gioja

Online courses and cohorts:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

138. Ministry Leadership in a Time of Immense Change, with Markus Watson Sep 27, 2022

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In a time of immense change, how should churches do ministry? How should pastors and leaders lead their churches and organizations? Should we set a BHAG--a Big Hairy Audacious Goal? Should we set one-year, five-year, and ten-year goals?
Or is there another way? Could it be that what we need are not big, enormous goals, but simple to take small steps and achieve short-term wins?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Markus Watson questions whether or not churches today should set BHAGs--Big Hairy Audacious Goals.
“Small steps and short-term wins are the best approach, rather than big programs or large-scale planning.” --Alan Roxburgh, The Missional Leader
We are living in a time of discontinuous change.
Continuous change is the kind of change that is expected and understood.
Discontinuous change is unexpected and hard to understand.
In times of discontinuous change, Markus Watson suggests churches should not set large goals; rather they should conduct small experiments.
Missteps and small losses can be just as valuable for churches today as small steps and short-term wins.
Whether through wins or losses, the most important thing, according to Markus Watson, is to keep learning.
Through their small wins and losses, churches can learn about their neighbors, about themselves, and about God.
To learn more, join one of these learning experiences:
- Leading Your Church Through Change, a free online course that teaches the process of action-reflection as a method for leading change in your church.
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort, an 18-month deep-dive learning cohort led by Tod Bolsinger and the Church Leadership Institute to help you navigate change in a disruptive world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Missional Leader: Equipping Your Church to Reach a Changing World, by Alan Roxburgh and Fred Romanuk
- Built to Last: Successful Habits of Visionary Companies, by Jim Collins
Online courses and cohorts:
- Leading Your Church Through Change
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

137. Ending Homelessness, with Kevin Nye, author of Grace Can Lead Us Home Sep 13, 2022

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Kevin Nye is the author of Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness, and Housing Director of a non-profit youth center. In this episode, Kevin helps us understand some of the misconceptions about homelessness—what’s really going on—and what we can do about it. Specifically, he helps us understand why the first thing we should do is provide housing for those who need it, not because they’ve earned it, but as an act of grace.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Kevin Nye is the author of Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness, and Housing Director a non-profit youth center.
Having attended Fuller Seminary, Kevin Nye initially intended to be a pastor.
Kevin Nye helps us understand some of the common misconceptions about homelessness.
One common misconception about homelessness is that people who experience homelessness somehow deserve it.
Kevin Nye invites us to respond to the challenge of homelessness with grace. That is, we should not focus on what people deserve or earn in order to receive help when struggling with homelessness.
Markus shares about an encounter he had with a homeless person that day and Kevin offers his response.
Every challenging or uncomfortable encounter we have with a person experiencing homelessness is likely the result of some kind of systemic failure that has led or kept that person where they are.
A person who experiences homelessness has fallen through every social safety net.
Challenges like addiction and mental illness are much easier to address and manage when a person has housing.
The housing first strategy costs less than the current system which tends to keep people where they are.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Kevin Nye
- Website – www.kevinmnye.com
- Twitter - @kevinmnye1
- Instagram - @kevinmnye
- Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/knye1
Books mentioned:
- Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness, by Kevin Nye

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

136. Healthy Attachment and Spiritual Leadership, with Todd Hall, author of The Connected Life Aug 30, 2022

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Todd Hall is the author of The Connected Life and professor of Psychology at Biola University and faculty affiliate at the Harvard Human Flourishing Program.
In this episode we discuss a key component of healthy leadership: secure attachments. Healthy leaders more likely grew up with safe and secure attachments (primarily with their parents or key caregivers) or have worked to develop safe and secure now in their adult years. Todd Hall unpacks how to grow into a healthy leader by developing those safe and secure attachments.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Todd Hall is the author of The Connected Life and professor of Psychology at Biola University and faculty affiliate at the Harvard Human Flourishing Program.
According to Todd Hall, a “connected life” is a life in which we feel known and accepted by the important people in our lives. And we don’t feel alone with our emotional pain.
Having a secure attachment is characterized by: comfort, challenge, and companionship.
A life of healthy connectedness requires healthy connections in our childhood.
When we don’t have strong connections, according to Todd Hall, we can develop unhealthy insecure attachments.
Anxious attachment manifests as a feeling that people in my life won’t be there for me.
Dismissing attachment manifests with shutting down their connections and sense of need for other people.
Todd Hall shows how our relationships with our childhood attachment figures impact the way we relate to God.
Todd Hall tells his own story of struggling with his relationships as a child and the healing he experienced as he grew up.
Peer relationships can also affect our sense of attachment in our relationships.
According to Todd Hall, the experience of suffering can lead to growth if it is processed well.
We process our suffering well as we bring our suffering to God.
The act of “lament” can be a way of bringing our suffering to God.
Lament includes four elements:
- An address to God.
- A pouring out of our suffering to God.
- A request to God to alleviate our suffering.
- An expression of trust in God.
When we suffer we also need to bring our experience with people who are safe.
In order to lead well, pastors and church leaders need to address their own attachment needs and learn to be attuned to their own emotions.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Connected Life, by Todd Hall
- Relational Spirituality, by Todd Hall
Website:
www.connectedlifebook.com

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

135. Leading Your Church Through Political Division, with Allen Hilton, author of A House United Aug 16, 2022

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Allen Hilton is the author of A House United: How the Church Can Save the World and founder of the non-profit, A House United. In this episode, we discuss the rise of political divisiveness that has invaded our churches. And we address what we can do about it.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Allen Hilton is the author of A House United: How The Church Can Save the World. Allend Hilton has been a New Testament professor at Yale Divinty School, has served as a pastor for 15 years, and in 2016 started a non-profit called A House United.
The problem that America is facing today is that we don’t “stay at the table.”
According to Allen Hilton, the church bears responsibility for the polarization in America today.
Allen Hilton shows how the church throughout history—even the early church—has been prone to polarization.
In choosing the twelve disciples, Jesus chose people who were politically diametrically opposed to each other.
Allen Hilton suggests that if we can get 70% of Christians to be willing to have conversations with people they disagree with, things will begin to change.
They way we increase shalom is by getting good at being together across difference.
People’s primary identity is their political affiliation. If churches never address politics in our discourse, then we will fail to connect with what is most important to people.
Allen Hilton explains Mission 4.0:
- Mission 1.0 is evangelism.
- Mission 2.0 is charity and service.
- Mission 3.0 is justice.
- Mission 4.0 is unity in the church and beyond the church.
Allen Hilton does a daily devotional which you can sign up for HERE.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Allen Hilton:
- House United Movement website
- Newsletter
- E-mail: allen@houseunitedmovement.org
Books mentioned:
- A House United, by Allen Hilton

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

134. How to Help Your City Thrive, with Amy Sherman, author of Agents of Flourishing Aug 02, 2022

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Amy Sherman is the author of Agents of Flourishing and a Senior Fellow at the Sagamore Institute. In this conversation, Amy is going to help us understand six “community endowments”—six arenas of life—that need to be strong in order for those communities to truly be flourishing communities. And then Amy gives us some great starting points to help us discern how God may be calling us to contribute to and strengthen those endowments in our communities.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Amy Sherman is the author of Agents of Flourishing and a Senior Fellow at the Sagamore Institute.
Agents of Flourishing is a response to the need Amy Sherman sensed from pastors and ministry leaders—the need to know how to bring shalom into the world.
Amy Sherman explains that shalom is a Hebraic concept referring to total wholeness.
Jesus came into the world as an agent of flourishing. Jesus brought shalom into the world and calls us to join him in the ongoing work of restoring shalom.
Amy Sherman structured Agents of Flourishing around six “community endowments,” originally developed by the Thriving Cities Group.
The six community endowments are:
- The True
- The Good
- The Beautiful
- The Just and Well-ordered
- The Sustainable
- The Prosperous
A city that is strong in only one or two these won’t be a truly thriving city. Cities need all (or at least most) of these endowments to be strong.
The goal of Agents of Flourising is to help pastors and churches take stock of their own gifts and passions and discern which of these endowments they might contribute to.
Amy Sherman encourages churches to take stock of their assets. This might include physical assets like buildings and classrooms, relational assets like partnerships with other churches or organizations, and financial assets.
Amy Sherman also recommends assessing the strengths, gifts, and assets of the community outside the church.
Too often churches rush to start a new program. Sometimes it’s better to partner with an organization already doing good work.
Made to Flourish, together with Amy Sherman, designed a helpful “Skill Mapping Survey.”
You can find out more about Amy Sherman at the Sagamore Institute’s Center on Faith in Communities website.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Sagamore Institute
Center on Faith in Communities
Thriving Cities Group
Made to Flourish
- Skill Mapping Survey
Books mentioned:
- Agents of Flourishing, by Amy Sherman
- Kingdom Calling, by Amy Sherman
- The Last Juror, by John Grisham
- B

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

133. Partners Not Projects, with Scott Sabin, Executive Director of Plant with Purpose Jul 19, 2022

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Scott Sabin is the Executive Director of Plant with Purpose, an organization that works with people in poverty all over the world to restore the land where they live so that they can become self-sustaining. It’s an organization that recognizes that they are not the saviors of the poor, they are partners who work with the poor.
In this episode, Scott shares about the work of Plant with Purpose. Then, Scott and Markus draw connections between the way Plant with Purpose does its mission work and how the healthiest churches do ministry in their neighborhoods. And it all comes down to recognizing people as "partners, not projects."
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Scott Sabin is the Executive Director of Plant With Purpose, author of Tending to Eden, and an elder at Mount Soledad Presbyterian Church.
The mission of Plant with Purpose begins with the recognition that many of the world’s poorest people depend directly on the well-being of the land for their survival.
Plant with Purpose works to alleviate poverty in three ways:
- Environmental restoration
- Economic empowerment through Purpose Groups (savings groups)
- Spiritual renewal through a biblically based curriculum
Plant with Purpose focuses its work around watersheds for a variety of practical reasons.
Once Plant with Purpose identifies an area in which to work, they begin networking with local leaders.
Asset-mapping is an important component of Plant with Purpose’s work. What are the assets in a particular community?
Plant with Purpose seeks to collaborate with other organizations in the area.
It is critical to hear from all the different parts of a community (not just one or two groups).
The staff that does the work locally are local to the region (or, at least, local to the country). They are not outsiders.
Plant with Purpose views the people the serve as “partners, not projects.”
Scott and Markus reflect on how Plant with Purpose’s strategies and methods could be applied to local church ministry.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Plant with Purpose
Books mentioned:
- Tending to Eden, by Scott Sabin
- Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
Related episodes:
- Episode 115: Poverty Alleviation and Spiritual Leadership, with Rob Gailey, author of Development in Mission

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

132. The Role of Nostalgia in Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Roberts and Tod Bolsinger Jul 05, 2022

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Mark Roberts is the former Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s DePree Center for Leadership. Mark now leads the Third Third Initiative at the DePree Center.
In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss three clips from a recent webinar by Mark Roberts on the topic of nostalgia. We learn about the difference between historical nostalgia and personal nostalgia. We discuss the positive effects of nostalgia. And then we reflect on how to lead people pastorally through the experience of nostalgia.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute and the author of Canoeing the Mountains and Tempered Resilience.
Mark Roberts is the former Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s DePree Center for Leadership. Mark now leads the Third Third Initiative at the DePree Center.
Mark Roberts and Tod Bolsinger have been friends for a long time. The topic of this podcast episode came about as they were talking over dinner about the value of nostaligia.
Mark Roberts, Clip 1: The difference between historical nostalgia and personal nostalgia.
- Historical nostalgia has to do with thinking the past is better than the present.
- Many churches are in decline. If they try to go back to the glory days, they decline even faster.
Mark Roberts, Clip 2: The Positive Effects of Nostalgia
- Personal nostalgia is a bittersweet yearning for the past.
- Part of personal nostalgia is knowing you can’t go back; so it’s not trying to go back.
- Nostalgia shouldn’t make you go back to the past. It should energize you to live more fully in the present.
- There is something lifegiving about nostalgia.
- Reframing the values of the past to be the healthiest expression of the future is what is lifegiving to a church.
- Churches have to help people grieve that we’re never going to go back to the past.
Mark Roberts, Clip 3: Two Pastoral Responses to Nostalgia
- When people feel nostalgic about their church, the pastor can 1) turn the nostalgia to gratitude or 2) acknowledge the bittersweetness of remembering the past
- Gratitude is critical in a healthy, mature organization.
- Gratitude reminds us that God was faithful in the past and will be faithful as we move into the future.
- Attunement accelerates change.
- Attunement is what happens when people empathize with each other and their brains start firing together.
The Church Leadership Institute’s Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort is designed to help churches respond to nostalgia in a healthy way so that they can navigate and lead change in a healthy way as they move into the future.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Church Leadership Institute
- Adaptive Church Leadership Cohort
DePree Center for Leadership
Third Third Initiative
Books mentioned:
- Canoeing the Mountains, by

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

131. Spiritual Leadership in the Digital Space, with Laura Murray Jun 21, 2022

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What is a digital silent retreat? In this episode, Laura Murray, a pastor and spiritual director, will tell the story of how she began to use Zoom to lead digital silent retreats while people were quarantining due to Covid, as well as offer insight into how to lead your own digital silent retreats.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Laura Murray is a pastor, a spiritual director, and regularly hosts digital silent retreats.
Laura started leading digital silent retreats as a response to the experience of isolation due to the Covid quarantine that began in March 2020.
Laura Murray knew it was important for people to have solitude and silence, but also to have connection—to be able to talk about their experience and what they were feeling.
Laura explains how the digital silent retreat is structured.
Participants in the digital silent retreats are asked to prepare before they show up, such as putting it on your calendar and letting their families know they’ll be unavailable during that time.
The digital silent retreats are limited to the host plus eight people.
Participants tend to find courage from one another in their sharing in the digital space.
Laura Murray reflects on whether it would be better if they met in person.
Meeting by Zoom has some advantages over in-person. For instance, it levels the group socio-economically.
According to Laura Murray, hospitality is a cornerstone practice for the digital silent retreats.
Two other key practices are generosity and spacious guidance.
Hospitality creates safe space for people to open up. Hospitality also has boundaries.
Laura Murray helps us understand the connection between leadership and hospitality.
We need to have a clear “why” when doing digital silent retreats.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Laura Murray:
- Website – www.laurabmurray.com/retreats
Books mentioned:
- This Here Flesh, by Cole Arthur Riley
Church Leadership Institute

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

130. Pursuing Your Purpose, with Nicholas Pearce, author of The Purpose Path Jun 07, 2022

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Nicholas Pearce is the author of The Purpose Path. He is also Clinical Professor of Management & Organizations at Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management and Founder & CEO of The Vocati Group.
In this episode, Nicholas Pearce discusses what success really is. Spoiler alert—it has nothing to do with bigger, better, and more. It has to do with faithfully following the purpose to which God has called us.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Nicholas Pearce is the author of The Purpose Path. He is also Clinical Professor of Management & Organizations at Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management and Founder & CEO of The Vocati Group.
Nicholas Pearce says that many of us learn to define success from an early age based on how those around us define success.
The question, “What is success?” is best answered by faithfulness.
According to Nicholas Pearce, success is best thought of as simple faithfulness one decision at a time.
Many people climb the ladder of success, but feel like failures when they get to the top.
Our definitions of success are like rudders that orient us in certain directions, impacting our sense of purpose.
Nicholas Pearce makes the case that sometimes moments of purpose present themselves as distractions or disruptions.
Nicholas Pearce shares how he has had to redefine success in his own life in order to more faithfully pursue his purpose.
Sometimes we need to pivot when pursuing our purpose.
God is not always going to do the miraculous. Sometimes God just wants to see if you’ll put into practice what you know.
Nicholas Pearce suggests that instead of praying for clarity, maybe we should be praying for courage, specifically vocational courage.
Nicholas Pearce offers words of advice and encouragement for ministry leaders and pastors who are struggling to follow their purpose path.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Nicholas Pearce:
- Twitter - @napphd
- Instagram - @napphd
- Website – www.nicholaspearce.org
Books mentioned:
- The Purpose Path: A Guide to Pursuing Your Authentic Life's Work, by Nicholas Pearce
- Brighter by the Day: Waking Up to New Hopes and Dreams, by Robin Roberts
Church Leadership Institute

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

129. Recalibrating the Church Around Jesus, with Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch, authors of ReJesus May 24, 2022

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Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch are the authors of ReJesus: Remaking the Church in our Founder’s Image.
In a world in which the church has in many ways lost, not only the image of Jesus, but also the centrality of Jesus, how do we once again become the church we were meant to be? The church that the world needs us to be?
In this episode, Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch discuss how we can recalibrate the church with Jesus at the center.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch are the authors of ReJesus: Remaking the Church in our Founder’s Image.
Michael Frost is the Director of the Tinsley Institute at Morling College and Alan Hirsch leads the Movement Leaders Collective.
The last five years have shown that the church needs a recalibration around the person of Jesus.
In some places the word “evangelical” has become a bad word.
Alan Hirsch is surprised and disappointed at the direction the evangelical church has taken over the last 5-10 years.
Michael Frost says the word “gospel” has been reduced to a particular atonement theory. But when Jesus used the word, he was talking about the Kingdom of God.
Much of the church’s unhealth has been unveiled in recent years.
Alan Hirsch suggests that the gospel has been depersonalized into a doctrine. We need to see the face of Jesus once again in the gospel.
The church has recalibrated itself numerous times throughout history.
Discipleship is crucial to being the church we’re called to be.
Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch both answer the question: What is the church’s mission?
Many in our churches seem unable to recognize the voice of Jesus—even when read from the scriptures.
Being the church we are called to be requires three things:
- Orthodoxy – not just right beliefs, but truly taking the scriptures into our hearts and souls
- Orthopathy – a right heart, right feelings, love and allegiance toward Jesus
- Orthopraxy – right action
Alan Hirsch says we can’t go wrong if we become more like Jesus.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost:
Books mentioned:
- ReJesus, by Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch
Related episodes:
- Episode 12: God is a Woman in Labor, with Christiana Rice, author of To Alter Your World
Church Leadership Institute

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

128. Letting Go of the Solo-Heroic Leader in You, with Bryan Sims, author of Leading Together May 10, 2022

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Bryan Sims is the author of Leading Together: The Holy Possibility of Harmony and Synergy in the Face of Change. He is also a coach with Spiritual Leadership Inc. and a professor at Asbury Theological Serminary.
In this episode, Bryan Sims discusses the importance of shared leadership. As we lead through these challenging times, leaders need to be able to bring people together—to draw on all our gifts and talents and knowledge. We are called to lead healthy teams of people in order to fully participate in God’s mission in the world. We cannot do it alone.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Bryan Sims is the author of Leading Together: The Holy Possibility of Harmony and Synergy in the Face of Change and is a coach with Spiritual Leadership Inc. and a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary.
Bryan Sims explains that healthy leadership requires working together and harmony among those that are working together, especially as we are living in times of disequilibrium.
Disequilibrium creates a space of high possibility.
Bryan Sims explains what he means by “technical challenges” and “adaptive challenges.”
Covid has been a time of intense adaptive challenge.
Overcoming adaptive challenges requires shared leadership.
Shared leadership can involve staff, church members, and even people outside the church or organization.
Kenosis is the Greek word that captures the self-emptying nature of Jesus. Healthy church leadership, according to Bryan Sims, also kenotic in nature. Controlling and manipulating is the opposite of kenosis.
Bryan Sims demonstrates the early church exhibited kenotic shared leadership because they learned that kind of leadership from Jesus.
Adaptive shared leadership is actually quite pastoral.
Bryan Sims, in his work, asks a really important question: How do we discern what God is doing and how do we join God in that?
Bryan Sims suggests that every leader needs a coach, a spiritual director, and a counselor.
For leaders wanting to engage in shared leadership, Bryan Sims suggests finding a person with whom they can process their leadership challenges.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Bryan Sims:
- Website – www.bryandsims.com
Church Leadership Inc.:
- Website - www.spiritual-leadership.org
Books mentioned:
- Leading Together, by Bryan Sims
- Surfing the Edge of Chaos, by Richard Pascale, Mark Milleman, and Linda Gioja
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

127. From Sunday-centric to Mission-centric, with Jon Ritner, author of Positively Irritating Apr 26, 2022

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Jon Ritner is the author of Positively Irritating: Embracing a Post-Christian World to Form a More Faithful and Innovative Church. In this episode, we discuss what it means to be the church in a post-Christendom world. How can the church be the kind of church that a Post-Christendom world actually needs—and the kind of church that God is calling the church to be?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jon Ritner is the author of Positively Irritating: Embracing a Post-Christian World to Form a More Faithful and Innovative Church and has served as lead at Ecclesia Hollywood for the last seven.
After serving as an executive pastor of a megachurch, Jon Ritner eventually made his way to a microchurch network in Brussels, Belgium.
Later, Jon Ritner and his wife moved to Hollywood to help churches adapt and innovate in an increasingly post-Christendom world.
The early church existed in a pluralistic pre-Christian culture.
Jon Ritner uses the metaphor of an oyster to help us understand that challenges, when approached with a posture of learning and embrace, can lead to beauty.
Thanks to Covid, we have just spent the last two years in a liminal space.
The mission of God is not just the conversion of every individual soul. It’s the redemption and restoration of all of creation.
Jon Ritner argues that ministry should happen throughout the week in all the places where God’s people are. Then they can come together to celebrate on Sundays.
For many people today, going to church is almost a cross-cultural experience.
Jon Ritner explains that many churches unconsciously create an insider-outsider divide when they announce that if someone wants to find belonging they have to come to the church.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jon Ritner:
- E-mail: jonritner@gmail.com
- Website: www.jonritner.com
Books mentioned:
- Missional Church, edited by Darrell Guder
- Positively Irritating, by Jon Ritner
- The Master Plan of Evangelism, by Robert E. Coleman
Church Leadership Institute
Related Episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

126. A Crisis of Adult Discipleship, with Brian Wallace, Executive Director of the Center for Spiritual Formation Apr 12, 2022

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The church is experiencing what Brian Wallace calls a crisis of adult discipleship. We have plenty of people going to church. But that doesn’t necessarily translate into faithful, deep discipleship.
In this episode Brian Wallace discusses how to address that challenge. Brian is the Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s Center for Spiritual Formation, and he helps us understand the critical components necessary for deep spiritual formation.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Brian Wallace is the Executive Director of the Fuller Center for Spiritual Formation.
As a pastor in a megachurch, Brian Wallace knew there was a crisis of adult discipleship.
The vision of the Center for Spiritual Formation is to empower leaders everywhere to grow and send everyone.
In Renovation of the Heart, Dallas Willard says we are always being formed.
Spiritual formation is the determination to let Jesus be in charge of who we become.
Brian Wallace says we are the representation of God’s goodness in the world.
The reason we have a crisis of formation is because, according to Brian Wallace, we have placed information at the center of the formative process.
No one has ever been invited to follow Jesus by themselves.
We are formed spiritually when we are in a safe place—not safe from challenge and conviction, but safe from shame and guilt.
According to Brian Wallace, relationships are critically important in our journey to becoming more like Jesus.
How do we help our congregations be engage in deep spiritual formation when most of our church members only attend church once or twice a month?
Fuller Formation Groups (part of the Center for Spiritual Formation) are designed to help churches lead their congregations into deep spiritual formation.
The calculus of transformation is an informed practice in a reflective community over time.
Brian Wallace says spiritual formation requires time. Not many hours in a week, but many weeks over time.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- In the Name of Jesus, by Henri Nouwen
- The Message of the Sermon on the Mount, by John Stott
- The Collective Works of C.S. Lewis
- Renovation of the Heart, by Dallas Willard
Brian Wallace:
- E-mail: spiritualformation@fuller.edu
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

125. Fruitful Leadership, with Tom Nelson, author of The Flourishing Pastor Mar 29, 2022

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Tom Nelson is author of The Flourishing Pastor, as well as the senior pastor of Christ Community Church in Kansas City and the president of Made to Flourish.
In this episode, Tom Nelson unpacks what it means to be a flourishing pastor--a pastor who lives and leads from a deep well of inner health and wholeness.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tom Nelson is author of The Flourishing Pastor. He is also the senior pastor of Christ Community Church in Kansas City and the president of Made to Flourish.
The Flourishing Pastor is based on Psalm 78:72: “So David shepherded them according to the integrity of his heart and guided them with his skillful hands.”
“A flourishing pastor is increasingly like Jesus as he or she is yoked in apprenticeship with him over a long time.”
When we prioritize greater intimacy with God, our leadership will grow in fruitfulness.
What we are doing and what we are accomplishing matters, but for a flourishing pastor it’s secondary.
“To lead well we must be led well.”
Leadership and followership go hand in hand.
Failure often is our greatest teacher.
Tom Nelson explains what he means by “an integral life,” which refers to a kind of seamlessness in life. When we are in Christ, we experience life as fully unified and integral. That’s what it means to be a flourishing pastor.
We are moving toward a greater wholeness.
A “black swan” experience, as Tom Nelson describes, is a completely unexpected experience. It’s something you’ve never seen before (something like a global pandemic).
There are four things a flourishing pastor can do when confronted with a “black swan” experience:
- Lean into wisdom
- Remain relational
- Build endurance
- Stay in mission

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Flourishing Pastor, by Tom Nelson
Made to Flourish:
- www.madetoflourish.org
Church Leadership Institute:
- Website – www.depree.org/church
- Anvil Leadership Support Network
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

124. Racial Justice, Sexual Wholeness, and the Way of Jesus, with Rich Villodas, author of The Deeply Formed Life Mar 15, 2022

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Rich Villodas is the lead pastor at New Life Fellowship and the author of The Deeply Formed Life, in which he explores five values that help us live in union with Jesus.
In this interview, Rich and I focus on two of those five values: racial justice and reconciliation and sexual wholeness. These are not values typically associated with spiritual formation, but they are incredibly important nonetheless to being formed in the way of Jesus.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Rich Villodas is the lead pastor at New Life Fellowship in Queens, NY, and the author of The Deeply formed Life: Five Transformative Values that Root us in the Way of Jesus.
Rich shares the story of how he came to faith in Jesus and was called to be a pastor.
The five values discussed in The Deeply Formed Life flow from the values of the church Rich Villodas pastors.
These five values are:
- Contemplative rhythms
- Racial justice and reconciliation
- Interior examination
- Sexual wholeness
- Missional presence
Spiritual formation is the process of being conformed to the image of Jesus for the sake of others.
Rich Villodas explains why we need to think about racial justice formationally.
Despite our many ethnicities, races, socio-economic backgrounds, and so forth, what unites all of us is that we have all been socialized in a racialized society.
Rich Villodas unpacks what it means to be formed into sexual wholeness.
Contemplative rhythms is about ordering our lives with God in such a way that we are living from a place of Communion, prayer, reflection.
Rich Villodas explains why contemplative rhythms are so important for healthy spiritual leadership.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Rich Villodas
- www.richvillodas.com
- Instagram - @richvillodas
- Twitter - @richvillodas
Books mentioned:
- The Deeply Formed Life, by Rich Villodas
- Good and Beautiful and Kind, by Rich Villodas
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

123. Gentrification and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Strong, author of Who Moved My Neighborhood Mar 01, 2022

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Gentrification is a process by which a local group of residents are slowly pushed out by economic forces, making room for a new group of residents. In his book, Who Moved My Neighborhood: Leading Congregations through Gentrification and Economic Change, Mark Strong helps local churches navigate that challenge of gentrification. And in this episode, Mark unpacks, not only the effects of gentrification on local residents and churches, but also how to respond with resilience and grace in the face of such great change.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mark Strong is the senior pastor of Life Change Church in Portland, Oregon, and the author of Who Moved My Neighborhood: Leading Congregations through Gentrification and Economic Change.
Mark Strong shares the story of how he came to faith in the church of which he is now the pastor.
The change of Mark’s neighborhood started very subtly. They didn’t even notice it was happening at first.
Gentrification is a process in which one homogeneous group of people who live in a particular area are slowly pushed out of their community by economic forces to make room for new groups of people.
The process of gentrification stirs up feelings of powerlessness, anger, and disorientation among local residents.
Mark Strong outlines a process that can help pastors and churches navigate the challenges of gentrification.
For local residents, gentrification can feel like an experience of exile.
It is important for the local church to learn to love their new neighbors.
Mark Strong emphasizes the importance of developing a new vision for churches in gentrified communities.
Mark shares some of the ways he and his congregation have adapted to their community’s gentrification.
Mark discusses some of the ways race played into the experience of gentrification and the challenges they faced because of race and racism.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books Mentioned:
- Who Moved My Neighborhood? by Mark Strong
- Leading on Empty, by Wayne Cordeiro
Mark Strong:
- www.lifechangechurch.org
- www.drmarkestrong.org
Related Episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

122. Burned Out and Broken, with Michael MacKenzie, author of Don't Blow Up Your Ministry Feb 15, 2022

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Michael MacKenzie, the Executive Director of Marble Retreat and the author of Don’t Blow Up Your Ministry, has been working with pastors in crisis for a long time. In this episode, Michael will help us understand not only the danger signs of an impending ministry blow-up, but also how to heal after we’ve blown up our ministry.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Michael MacKenzie is Executive Director of Marble Retreat and the author of Don’t Blow Up Your Ministry.
Michael shares what led him to his ministry with Marble Retreat.
Michael MacKenzie describes what he means by a “blown up ministry.”
Burnout results when the stresses of ministry combine with the pastor’s own brokenness.
Potential stressors include: people-pleasing, avoidance of conflict, and so forth.
To avoid these pitfalls, pastors should be on the lookout for: resentment, exhaustion, lack of joy, lack of peace, lack of passion.
Pride and success can also lead to a blown-up ministry when pastors cross certain unhealthy and inappropriate boundaries.
Michael MacKenzie shares why failure can be better for the soul than success.
Michael explains the differences between large churches and small churches and how that affects a pastors well-being.
Healthy relationships are critical for healthy ministry leadership.
One way to build relationships is to pick up a hobby that other people do.
Michael MacKenzie reflects on the connection between confession and healing.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Marble Retreat website
Books mentioned:
- Don’t Blow Up Your Ministry, by Michael MacKenzie
- Renovation of the Heart, by Dallas Willard
- Works of Love, by Soren Kierkegaard
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

121. Rewrite Your Story, with Ian Morgan Cron, author of The Story of You Feb 01, 2022

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Ian Morgan Cron is an Enneagram teacher, host of the Typology podcast, and author of the new book, The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self.
Every person has a story. You’ve got a story. I’ve got a story. And not just a story of what actually happened, but a story we tell ourselves to help make sense of our lives.
In this episode, Ian Morgan Cron helps us understand that the stories we bring into adulthood often aren't helpful. As leaders, we need to write a new, healthy story.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ian Morgan Cron is an Enneagram teacher, host of the Typology podcast, and author of the new book, The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self.
Ian describes what the Enneagram is.
As children, we develop stories about ourselves that help us cope with the pain and difficulty of life. As adults, we bring these stories with us, even though they are quite limiting and self-defeating.
These stories tend to be in direct opposition to the Gospel.
Ian Morgan Cron offers some examples of the kinds of stories we believe about ourselves.
If we don’t leave these stories behind, we end up living lives that are too small.
According to Ian Morgan Cron, we need to explore both the shadow side and the strength of our story.
Ian Morgan Cron explains the “SOAR” method for rewriting our stories: See, Own, Awaken, Rewrite.
Ian describes the correlation between rewriting one’s story and the themes of Richard Rohr’s Falling Upward.
Ian Morgan Cron describes the work of Dan McAdams who developed narrative therapy. He says, “All transformation is story transformation.”
Robert Jensen’s essay, How the World Lost Its Story, helps us better understand the story pastors and ministry leaders need in order to lead well in a disruptive world.
Pastors need to recapture a story that explains the way the world is and present it narratively.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Ian Morgan Cron:
- www.ianmorgancron.com
- @ianmorgancron
  - Twitter
  - Instagram
Books mentioned:
- The Story of You, by Ian Morgan Cron
- The Road Back to You, by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile
- Falling Upward, by Richard Rohr
Other Resources:
- How the World Lost Its Story, by Robert Jensen
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

120. Forming Leadership Resilience, with Tod Bolsinger, Executive Director of the Church Leadership Institute Jan 18, 2022

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Leadership resilience is about maintaining one's core purpose and identity while the world changes around us. It is especially important for those of us in ministry leadership as we navigate this rapidly changing and disruptive world in which we live.
In this episode, Tod Bolsinger discusses three things we can do to grow our leadership resilience.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of the Church Leadership Institute and author of Tempered Resilience.
According to David Whyte, “The antidote to exhaustion is wholeheartedness.” (Crossing the Unknown Sea)
We are facing four crises at once: a health crisis, an economic crisis, a crisis of social injustice, and a political crisis.
We are also facing a pastoral crisis. Many pastors are considering leaving the ministry.
According to Andrew Zolli, resilience is the capacity to “maintain core purpose and integrity in the face of dramatically changed circumstances.” (Resilience: Why Things Bounce Back)
Strengthen your pastoral and leadership resilience by doing three things:
- Clarify your “core purpose.”
- Commit to a safe place for vulnerable self-reflection.
- Create a playful experiment for even more learning.
Purpose brings leadership resilience.
Learning brings leadership resilience.
Adaptability brings leadership resilience.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

119. Being Leaders of Grace in a Divided World, with Kirsten Powers, author of Saving Grace Jan 04, 2022

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Saving Grace, by Kirsten Powers, addresses the challenge of leadership in a divided world. How can we be people of grace when we are surrounded by so much ungrace?
As a USA Today columnist and senior political analyst for CNN—and a committed follower of Jesus—Kirsten Powers comes at this challenge as someone who has had to wrestle with her own tendency toward ungrace.
In this interview, Kirsten Powers gives us some really important wisdom on the subject of grace, ungrace, dividedness, and wholeness.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCUDE:

Kirsten Powers is CNN senior political analyst and USA today columnist and author of Saving Grace.
Falling Upward by Richard Rohr was a very formative book for Kirsten in recent years.
Kirsten Powers grew up with a minimal faith background, but came to faith at Redeemer Presbyterian Church, pastored by Tim Keller. Eventually, Kirsten converted to Catholicism.
After reading Falling Upward, Kirsten realized that she engaged in a lot of hyper-dualistic thinking.
After 2016, Kirsten Powers had to wrestle with how she perceived and understood people she disagreed with politically.
Kirsten had a difficult time figuring out how to love her enemies. Eventually, she realized she had to let go of dualistic thinking.
Grace gives people the space to not be you.
Establishing boundaries with people has been a key practice that has helped Kirsten express grace toward others.
Judgment will quickly lead to contempt, which will pretty quickly lead to hatred.
Grace requires effort. Grace is a practice.
Good behavior toward others is not necessarily evidence of grace. Grace is about how we think of others internally.
You can follow Kirsten Powers on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Kirsten Powers:
Books mentioned:
- Saving Grace by Kirsten Powers
- Falling Upward by Richard Rohr
Sign up for the Church Leadership Institute newsletter
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

118. Forecasting and Innovation, with Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen, co-authors of 2020s Foresight Dec 21, 2021

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Dwight Friesen and Tom Sine coach and consult with churches in the area of foresight and innovation. They are alo co-authors of 2020s Foresight: Three Vital Practices for Thriving in a Decade of Accelerating Change.
There’s no denying that the world just keeps changing and it feels like the church is constantly playing catch-up.
But here’s the thing. We can’t keep playing catch up. We have to start asking not, “How do we need to change to be the church for today?” But, “How do we need to change to be the church for tomorrow?”
In this episode, I’m speaking with Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen about their book, 2020s Foresight. We talk about the importance of anticipating the future, engaging our “shalomic imagination,” and how to practically begin the work of forecasting.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tom Sine is a consultant with churches in the area of foresight and innovation and the co-author of 2020s Foresight.
Dwight Friesen is the Associate Professor of Practical Theology at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and co-author of 2020s Foresight.
Tom Sine studied under Frank Herbert, the author of Dune, who eventually became a friend and mentor to Tom.
Most churches’ strategic planning is very inward focused, failing to attend to what is going on in the world around them.
The 3-part framework of probability forecasting includes anticipating, reflecting, and innovating.
Whenever there is a crisis, we need to ask what we are being invited to anticipate.
Pastors can start the work of forecasting by intentionally learning from business leaders in their congregations.
People in churches don’t generally fear change; they fear loss.
Dwight explains what he means by “shalomic imagination.”
Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen explain how a pastor can, very practically, begin to engage in the work of forecasting.
Tom Sine is available to meet with study groups via Zoom to discuss 2020s Foresight. Simply e-mail him at twsine@gmail.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books:
- 2020s Foresight, by Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen
- The Mustard Seed Conspiracy, by Tom Sine
- The New Parish, by Dwight Friesen, Paul Sparks, and Tim Soerens
Websites:
Inhabit Conference:
- https://theseattleschool.edu/event/inhabit-conference/
Church Leadership Institute
Related episodes:
- Rhythms of Leadership, Episode 6: Shalomic Action, with Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

117. Leading with Courage and Integrity in Times of Discontinuous Change Dec 07, 2021

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It is really hard to be a church leader these days, isn’t it? The world we live in today is not the world we prepared for as ministry leaders—especially in light of everything we’ve been through over the last couple of years.

So, what do you do when you find yourself essentially thrust into a world for which you weren’t prepared? What do you do when all the rules have changed? What do you do in a time of what some call discontinuous change?
In this episode, Markus Watson unpacks the meaning of discontinuous change and--using Joseph, the husband of Mary, as an example--how we are called to live and lead in the midst of such change.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Markus Watson explains the meaning of discontinuous change.
- Continuous change is change that is expected and understood.
- Discontinuous change is a kind of change that is different from anything anyone has experienced before.
The world has experienced severe discontinuous change over the last couple of years, especially with regard to the coronavirus pandemic and the outcry for racial justice.
Joseph, the husband of Mary, experienced extreme discontinuous change.
- Being to called to parent the Son of God was huge experience of discontinuous change.
Joseph accepted the call. He lived and led with courage and integrity.
Joseph also led adaptively.
We, too, are called to lead with courage and integrity.
We, too, are called to lead adaptively in discontinuous times.
Leading with courage means stepping out of your comfort zone.
Leading with integrity means leading from your true self.
The world needs a church with the capacity to bring healing and wholeness even in times of discontinuous change.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

116. Power, Vulnerability, Rest, with Tod Bolsinger, Executive Director of the Church Leadership Institute Nov 23, 2021

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When Jesus told his disciples that "whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave," that was an incredibly counter-cultural statement.
It's unfortunate that the church has often rejected this teaching and, instead, has sought to "lord it over' those around them.
In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson reflect on the themes of power, vulnerability, and rest.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of Fuller Theological Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute.
Clip #1: Episode 82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat.
Chuck DeGroat discusses the way the church has often aligned itself with structures of power and have lost the sense of participating in the suffering of Jesus.
One of the great temptations for leaders is believing that power will solve the problem.
Clip #2: Episode 36: The Vulnerable Pastor, with Mandy Smith.
Mandy Smith explores what it means to live in and embrace vulnerability.
Limitation is a ministry resource.
Strength in leadership is forged in vulnerable self-reflection.
Clip #3: Episode 70: The Subversiveness of Sabbath, with AJ Swoboda.
A.J. Swoboda discusses the ways that Sabbath actually helps us be healthier human beings.
The Sabbath is a rhythm that helps us be who we were meant to be.
Leaders need to live in the reality that we are at our best when we embrace our limitations.
We often need to have boundaries against our own people.
Sabbath practice helps us be the kind of leaders who can help our churches experience a foretaste of the new creation.
To become the kind of person who leads out of healthy vulnerability, check out this course taught by Tod Bolsinger: Tempered Resilience for Leading Change

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Church Leadership Institute
Course: Tempered Resilience for Leading Change
Related Books:
- Tempered Resilience, by Tod Bolsinger
- When Narcissism Comes to Church, by Chuck DeGroat
- The Vulnerable Pastor, by Mandy Smith
- Subversive Sabbath, by A.J. Swoboda
Related episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

115. Poverty Alleviation and Spiritual Leadership, with Rob Gailey, author of Development in Mission Nov 09, 2021

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Rob Gailey is Professor of Business and Director of the Center for International Development at Point Loma Nazarene University, as well as the co-author of Development in Mission: A Guide for Transforming Global Poverty and Ourselves.
The issue of poverty alleviation is probably one of the most challenging issues, not only for the church, but for the world in general. As both a missionary and a business professor, Rob Gailey brings a wealth of experience and wisdom to this topic.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Rob Gailey is Professor of Business and Director of the Center for International Development at Point Loma Nazarene University, as well as the co-author of Development in Mission: A Guide for Transforming Global Poverty and Ourselves.
Rob Gailey was a missionary kid. He shares the story of encountering deep poverty, which led him to care about poverty alleviation today.
When back in the United States with his family, Rob Gailey was considered impoverished in comparison to other Americans, but when he and his family went back to Swaziland he was considered incredibly wealthy. That dichotomy has never left him.
Over the past thirty years, poverty is actually going down globally.
Rob Gailey explains what he means by transformational development, which is a holistic approach to poverty alleviation.
It is incredibly important to listen to those whom we are trying to serve when it comes to poverty alleviation.
Rob Gailey tells the funny and tragic story of the “gringo wall” at a mission location in Mexico—a project given to mission teams who come to serve, but aren’t willing to listen.
Rob talks about how frequently mission teams only do busy work when they go on mission trips.
The move of the poor from rural areas to urban areas is having a profound impact on global poverty.
The way we vote in our own country can make an impact on global poverty.
Rob Gailey discusses the importance of reciprocity and mutuality in the work of poverty alleviation.
Markus Watson reflects on the importance of listening and mutuality in our local contexts, as well.
Holistic transformation is impossible without the church.
The church’s work of poverty alleviation needs to come from a place of deep spiritual formation so that those we serve will be drawn to Jesus Christ.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Rob Gailey:
- Point Loma Nazarene University Faculty page
- LinkedIn
Books mentioned:
- Development in Mission: A Guide for Transforming Global Poverty and Ourselves, by Rob Gailey, Monty Lynn, and Derran Reese
- When Helping Hurts, by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert
- Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers
Related episodes:
- Ep 34: A Small Church Making a Big Difference, with Cari Augusta

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

114. Meaningful Work, with Michaela O'Donnell, author of Make Work Matter Oct 26, 2021

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Michaela O’Donnell is the Executive Director of the Depree Center for Leadership at Fuller Theological Seminary and the author of Make Work Matter: Your Guide to Meaningful Work in a Changing World.
The world of work has changed. Rarely do people stay at the same company for decades (which used to be the norm). No people move from job to job every few years. The gig economy has change the world of work. And if you haven't noticed, the coronavirus pandemic has exacerbated all these changes.
In this episode, Michaela O'Donnell helps us understand the changing nature of work, not only for people in the marketplace, but also in the church.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Michaela O’Donnell is the Executive Director of the Depree Center for Leadership at Fuller Theological Seminary and the author of Make Work Matter: Your Guide to Meaningful Work in a Changing World.
The most formative book Michaela O’Donnell has read is Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership by Ruth Haley Barton.
Michaela shares what led her to write Make Work Matter.
It’s important to have a good understanding of work because it is such a big part of our lives and is part of God’s creation intention for human beings.
Michaela O’Donnell discusses how the world of work has changed in recent years and decades.
In dealing with the changing nature of work, we need to recognize we are not alone and make space for our feelings.
The changing nature of work invites us to engage in grief work.
Michaela O’Donnell describes how resilience can help us navigate the changing world of work.
The “entrepreneurial way,” as Michaela O’Donnell explains it, includes resilience, creativity, deepening in relationship, and the skill of empathy.
The story of the Good Samaritan is a helpful way of thinking about the connection between empathy and entrepreneurship.
Michaela O’Donnell reminds us that we can experience “small r resurrections” in the midst of the challenges of work.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Michaela O'Donnell:
- Depree Center for Leadership
- Pre-order Make Work Matter
Books mentioned:
- Make Work Matter: Your Guide to Meaningful Work in a Changing World, by Michaela O’Donnell
- Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership, by Ruth Haley Barton
- Tempered Resilience, by Tod Bolsinger
Church Leadership Institute
Related Episodes:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

113. Flourishing Leadership, with Andy Crouch, author of Strong and Weak Oct 12, 2021

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Andy Crouch is Partner for Theology and Culture at Praxis and the author of Strong and Weak. In this episode, Andy Crouch discusses the roles of both strength and weakness--authority and vulnerability--in our leadership.
So often, we assume the greatest leaders are the ones who exhibit great authority. Or maybe we believe the greatest leaders let go of all their authority and lead only from a place of vulnerability.

But that’s a false dichotomy. Leaders that bring true flourishing lead with both authority and vulnerability.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Andy Crouch is Partner for Theology and Culture at Praxis and the author of numerous books, including Strong and Weak.
The most formative books Andy Crouch has read are A Long Obedience in the Same Directionby Eugene Peterson and Technology and the Character of Contemporary Life by Albert Borgman.
After writing Playing God: Redeeming the Gift of Power, Andy Crouch placed the themes of that book on a 2x2 matrix, which unlocked all kinds of new insight, which led him to write Strong and Weak.
Andy Crouch explains what a 2x2 matrix is. In the case of Strong and Weak, the 2x2 matrix consists of authority and vulnerability.
- See graphic below
When humans experience both authority and vulnerability, this is flourishing.
When there is no authority and no vulnerability, this can be called safety or withdrawal.
Vulnerability without authority is suffering.
Authority without vulnerability is control or exploiting.
Andy Crouch explains the need for both authority and vulnerability by exploring Genesis 1 and 2.
There is something that is unlocked in the world when a person with authority willingly empties themselves of authority and enters into suffering. It has a capacity to repair and restore the world.
Finding the right meaningful risk will unlock flourishing for you and the people you’re entrusted with.
In order to move toward vulnerability, letting go of authority, we need friends who are outside our own system.
The prayer of a healthy leader: God, show me my meaningful action today and show me my meaningful risk.
To find out more about Andy Crouch and his work, visit www.praxislabs.org.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Strong and Weak, by Andy Crouch
- A Long Obedience in the Same Direction, by Eugene Peterson
- Technology and the Character of Contemporary Life, by Albert Borgman
- Playing God: The Gift of Redeeming Power, by Andy Crouch
Praxis Website:
- Praxislabs.org
Related episodes:
- Rhythms of Leadership, Ep 4: Embrace Authority and Vulnerability, with Andy Crouch

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

112. The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette, author of The Ninefold Path of Jesus Sep 28, 2021

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Mark Scandrette is the author of The Ninefold Path Jesus: Hidden Wisdom of the Beatitudes. In this episode, Mark does a fantastic job, not only unpacking what the Beatitudes are all about, but also showing us how living into the reality of the Beatitudes can help us be healthier and more lifegiving leaders.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mark Scandrette is the executive director of ReImagine: A Center for Integral Christian Practice and the author of The Ninefold Path of Jesus: Hidden Wisdom of the Beatitudes.
The Beatitudes suggest that the blessed life can come to the most unlikely people.
The Beatitudes are not a new set of rules given to us by Jesus.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus tries to get us to rethink our assumptions about life.
Mark Scandrette suggests the Beatitudes name some of our first instincts that take us away from God’s reality and presence and then invite us to reengage those realities on a deeper level.
When we experience poverty, our first instinct is to grasp. But the Beatitudes invite us to move from closed-handedness to open-handedness.
In The Ninefold Path of Jesus, Mark Scandrette offers physical postures for us to take in order to better experience the reality of the Beatitudes with our bodies.
Mark Scandrette thinks of the Beatitudes as the psychology of the Kingdom of God.
Because of a tendency toward competition and comparison, leaders often have a hard time with the Beatitude that says, “Blessed are the meek.”
Mark Scandrette describes the “Ninefold Path Leader Labs” that he leads and how they have helped leaders experience the reality of the Beatitudes.
In the “Ninefold Path Leader Labs,” participants are asked, “Who do you tend to label, stereotype, or judge?”
Participants are invited to pray for strangers with this prayer: “Child of God, may you be well.”
Mark Scandrette shares an incredible story of how the Beatitudes helped him defuse a situation in which a man brandished a gun at a convenience store.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark Scandrette
- The Divine Conspiracy, by Dallas Willard
Websites:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

111. A Gospel for the Sinned-Against, with Phuc Luu, author of Jesus of the East Sep 14, 2021

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Phuc Luu is the author of Jesus of the East: Reclaiming the Gospel for the Wounded. This book is based on the questions, “Why is there a theology for the sinner, but not for the victim, for the sinned against?”
That same question is also at the root of this conversation. In other words, do we need to pursue a Gospel that focuses less on punishment avoidance and more on the restoration of a broken world?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Phuc Luu is a theologian-philosopher and the author of Jesus of the East: Reclaiming the Gospel for the Wounded.
The Crucified God, by Jürgen Moltmann, and The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James Cone, are the most formative books Phuc Luu has read.
Phuc Luu came to the U.S. as a refugee with his family at the age of 4.
The Eastern Church Fathers tended to see sin as akin to sickness and salvation was likened to healing.
Minjung theology came out of Korea in response to the suffering and woundedness experienced, and focuses on salvation as healing, much like the Eastern Church Fathers.
With Constantine’s conversion, Christianity went from being a religion for the victims to a religion for the victimizers.
We have a Christianity for the sinner, but not a Christianity for the sinned against.
Phuc Luu explains the racialization of justice in the United States.
What is the good news for us today? How would Jesus bring healing to those who are wounded?
Phuc Luu answers the question, why did Jesus die on the cross?
Phuc Luu asks the question, does God have to do bad things in order to make good things happen?
God stands in solidarity with all those who are crucified.
The gospel for sinners is the opportunity to repent and have the mind of Christ.
Jesus created a kinship that mended the wounds of those around them. Jesus wants us to be reconciled to one another.
The church is called to allow its brokenness to intersect with the brokenness of the world, and thereby bring healing.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Phuc Luu
- Website: www.phucluu.com
Books mentions:
- Jesus of the East, by Phuc Luu
- The Crucfied God, by Jürgen Moltmann
- The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James Cone
- Reading the Bible with the Damned, by Bob Ekblad

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

110. Identity, Belonging, Purpose, with Kara Powell, author of 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager Aug 27, 2021

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Kara Powell is the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute at Fuller Seminary, as well as the Chief of Leadership Formation, also at Fuller Seminary. Kara is also the co-author (together with Brad Griffin) of 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager.

While Kara Powell’s book addresses the foundational questions that adolescents wrestle with, it turns out these questions linger throughout our lives.

The three big questions focus on identity, belonging, and purpose, and an understanding of these questions can give us insight both into our own anxieties, hopes, and motivations, as well as the anxieties, hopes, and motivations of those we work with and lead.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

One of the reasons Kara Powell wrote this book is because a teen said, “I wish the church would stop giving me answers to questions I’m not asking.”
This book is an attempt, through research, to understand, what are the questions that young people are asking and how do we help them experience Jesus’ best answers for those questions?
In speaking with teenagers, the three big questions had to do with Identity, Belonging, and Purpose:
- Who am I?
- Where do I fit?
- What difference can I make?
The process of discipleship is the process of discovering Christ-centered answers to these questions.
Kara Powell shares that almost every teenager feels like they are not enough. Jesus, however, says to teenagers, “You are enough.”
The teens with whom Kara Powell spoke in her research said they feel like they belong when they feel safe and when they share experiences with others.
Teens feel that they can make a difference when they are helping people. But they need to learn that they don’t need to earn God’s approval.
According to Kara Powell, these three questions can be really helpful in working with people in our ministries and organizations. When we look a difficult issue as being a matter of identity, belonging, or purpose for someone, that issue can suddenly make sense.
Kara Powell shares how understanding these questions have helped her even as a mom.
To find out more about Kara Powell and 3 Big Questions that Change Every Teenager, visit www.3bigquestionsbook.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager by Kara Powell and Brad Griffin
Website: www.3bigquestionsbook.com

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

109. Leadership as Learning, Part 2: Coaches and Cohorts, with Tod Bolsinger Aug 17, 2021

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Leadership, at its core, always has to do with navigating change. In a world like ours, change leadership is more critical than ever. But change leadership, or adaptive leadership, is impossible if the leader isn’t willing or able to take a learning posture.
In this episode, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson talk about how best to learn for the sake of leadership. Learning is always more effective in community. Learning happens best, in other words, with the support of a cohort of others who are on the same leadership journey, and the guidance of a coach who can challenge our assumptions and ask provocative questions.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of Fuller Theological Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute.
Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger give a brief synopsis of Episode 108, “Context and Creativity.”
Many leaders are discovering that they need help. They are realizing that they don’t have all the answers.
Tod Bolsinger explains why a cohort is so important for learning as a leader. The leader’s job in a cohort is really just to convene a group of learners.
Lewis and Clark and their team were a learning cohort.
Tod shares the story of a megachurch pastor who admitted he needed coaching.
A coach’s job is to care about you for the sake of the mission.
A dysfunctional leader is more interested in control than in learning.
Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the role of spiritual formation in healthy leadership.
Leaders need a cohort for support and a coach for challenge.
Leaders need to ask for help. Asking for help is an act of leadership.
The Lilly Endowment has made it possible for the Fuller Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute to provide learning cohorts and coaching at an affordable price through the Online Adaptive Capacity Cohort.
- The cost is $3500 for an 18-month cohort and coaching process.
- Mention Spiritual Life and Leadership when you apply to get a $500 scholarship.
- More scholarship money is available depending on need.
At the end of the Online Adaptive Capacity Cohort, you will have a team of people who are ready to take on the challenge of a changing world. Your team will be change leadership experts.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Online Adaptive Capacity Cohort:
- For more information, click HERE
- To register, click HERE
- Mention Spiritual Life and Leadership to get a $500 scholarship
Books mentioned:
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

108. Leadership as Learning, Part 1: Context and Creativity, with Tod Bolsinger Aug 03, 2021

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Each church, each ministry organization, is situated in a unique context—a particular place and time and culture. And that context, if we’re paying attention and engaging with a posture of learning, will call forth creative new ways of serving and loving and blessing our neighbors.
In this conversation, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss both the importance of knowing one's context and responding with creativity when discerning a church's ministry calling.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Executive Director of Fuller Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute, as well as the author of Canoeing the Mountains and Tempered Resilience.
Now that we’re coming out of the pandemic, many of us think about going “back.” But what would we be going back to?
Ronald Heifetz says that a crisis can give us the will to address issues we didn’t want to address before.
A crisis has an acute phase and an adaptive phase.
The future of one’s church will be built on the healthiest version of its “charism,” it’s gift.
Each church has been uniquely gifted for its particular context.
Leaders are shaped more by their context than by the reading they do or the education they receive.
Leaders and pastors need to pay attention to the pain points of their communities and reflect on how their church’s charism can address those pain points. And how will that require us to change?
Tod Bolsinger shares an amazing story of a church in Austin, TX, that took on the challenge of economic inequality in their community by buying medical debt.
- This sparked all kinds of ministry creativity in that church.
Markus Watson shares the story of Westmorland Community Presbyterian Church and the Food Pantry they started in their small, rural town.
The Church Leadership Institute is offering the Online Adaptive Capacity Cohort to help churches and pastors discover their charism and how to serve creatively in their contexts.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Online Adaptive Capacity Cohort
- Click HERE for more info
- Click HERE to apply (mention Spiritual Life and Leadership for a $500 scholarship)
Books mentioned:
- Canoeing the Mountains by Tod Bolsinger
- Tempered Resilienceby Tod Bolsinger
- Beyond Thingification by Markus Watson

Reviews help listeners find this podcast. To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

107. Childlike Faith, Adultlike Leadership, with Mandy Smith, author of Unfettered Jul 20, 2021

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Mandy Smith is a pastor and the author of Unfettered: Imagining a Childlike Faith Beyond the Baggage of Western Culture. In this episode, Mandy discusses the ways we are called to embrace childlikeness, while resisting childishness. And, at the same time, we are called to embrace mature adultlikeness, while resisting insecure adultishness.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDES:

Mandy Smith is a pastor and the author of Unfettered: Imagining a Childlike Faith Beyond the Baggage of Western Culture.
Mandy wrote Unfettered over the course of five years and four re-writes, having initially written a very “adult-like” exposition of childlike faith.
Mandy Smith explains the difference between “adultish” and “adult-like.”
Mandy shares how she began to explore what it means to have a childlike faith.
God is the initiator of mission in the world. We are called to rest, receive, and respond.
- Rest from the assumption that it’s all up to me.
- From that rest, we always receive from the Source of all things.
- Our response, then is to step into the adult-like agency of leadership.
Mandy Smith further unpacks the rest, receive, respond framework.
Western culture tends to reduce human beings down to what we think and what we do.
If we truly believe God is carrying our lives and the world, we can stop and rest sometimes.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Mandy Smith:
- Website: www.thewayistheway.org
Books mentioned:
- Unfettered: Imagining a Childlike Faith Beyond the Baggage of Western Culture, by Mandy Smith
- The Vulnerable Pastor, by Mandy Smith
- These books are available wherever you buys books, including https://www.heartsandmindsbooks.com/
Listen to Mandy Smith’s earlier episode:
- Episode 36: The Vulnerable Pastor, with Mandy Smith

Reviews help listeners find this podcast. To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
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Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
Click submit.

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—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

106. Confronting Modernity's Wager, with Mark Lau Branson, co-author of Leadership, God's Agency, and Disruptions Jul 06, 2021

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Mark Lau Branson is the co-author of Leadership, God's Agency, and Disruptions. In this episode, Mark discusses the question raised by "Modernity's Wager." That question is, "Can life be lived well without God?" While most of us would say, "No," the sad truth is that we often live and lead as though God is neither active nor present.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mark Lau Branson is the Homer L. Goddard Professor of the Ministry of the Laity at Fuller Theological Seminary, as well as the co-author (together with Alan Roxburgh) of Leadership, God’s Agency, and Disruptions.
Mark Lau Branson explains the meaning of “modernity’s wager,” which argues that life can be lived well without God.
Christian leaders operate within a framework that puts the onus of “success” on them. This leads to ways of leading rooted in power and control.
Strategic planning is totally dependent on humans being objects who can be manipulated toward ends. But ministry leaders do this unconsciously.
Churches look at their neighbors as objects who need something. And the church’s job is to deliver it.
Mark Lau Branson states that God is constantly disrupting throughout the Bible and walking with his people amid disruptions.
Markus Watson and Mark Lau Branson discuss the way the Gospel of Matthew presents learning communities as one of the key ways the church discovers its calling and purpose.
We can truly only learn through reflection in conversation.
Whenever Jesus had a meal with someone, he was always a guest. Mark Lau Branson says that the disciples learned from this that hospitality for the Gospel means you’re a guest. And then you listen because you’re a guest.
Mark Lau Branson and Markus Watson discuss the Four Spiritual Laws as a commodity designed to control a conversation and elicit a particular outcome.
Mark Lau Branson explains the social construction framework. Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, is challenging the social construction of both his time and our time.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Mark Lau Branson:
- Fuller website
Books mentioned:
- Leadership, God’s Agency, and Disruptions, by Mark Lau Branson and Alan Roxburgh
Related book:
- Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God's Mission, by Markus Watson
Church Leadership Institute
Free Online Course:
- Leading Your Church Through Change

Reviews help listeners find this podcast. To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
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Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

105. Courageous Leadership, with Rich Stearns, author of Lead Like It Matters to God Jun 22, 2021

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Rich Stearns, author of Lead Like it Matters to God, served as the President of World Vision from the mid-1990’s until just a few years ago. In that time, World Vision took on the African AIDS pandemic—and through Rich’s leadership helped many of us get a better understanding of what was really happening in that crisis, and of the children whose lives were being shattered by that pandemic.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Rich Stearns is the President Emeritus of World Vision and the author of Lead Like it Matters to God.
Rich Stearns came to faith after reading Miracles, by C.S. Lewis, and through the influence of his wife (then fiancé).
Rich was CEO of Parker Brothers Games and Lenox China.
Rich was initially not interested in being the President of World Vision.
The call to serve World Vision was a lot like Jesus’ call to the “rich young ruler.”
Total surrender is essential for faithful leadership. Sometimes we surrender some parts of our lives, but not others.
In the 1990’s, Rich Stearns was called to deal with the AIDS pandemic in Africa. This was an incredibly difficult and adaptive leadership challenge.
Listening is critical for healthy and effective leadership.
The job description of every follower of Jesus is that we are Christ’s ambassadors in the world.
We must sacrifice our ambitions for Christ’s ambitions for us.
In addition to his book, Rich Stearns has a podcast titled Lead Like it Matters to God, where he interviews senior Christian leaders.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Lead Like it Matters to God, by Rich Stearns
- Miracles, by C.S. Lewis
Rich Stearns
- Lead Like It Matters to God podcast
- World Vision

Reviews help listeners find this podcast. To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."
Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
Click submit.

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—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

104. Idols of Comfort: The Church After Covid, with Pamela Ebstyne King and Dwight Radcliff Jun 08, 2021

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Pamela Ebstyne King and Dwight Radcliff, professors at Fuller Theological Seminary, discuss what it means to thrive as we move into a post-Covid world, acknowledging our idols of comfort, and what it means to move forward toward the healing and wholeness that God wants for the whole world.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Pamela Ebstyne King is the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Thrive Center for Human Development.
Dwight Radcliff is Assistant Professor of Mission, Theology, and Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary, as well as the Academic Dean of the Pannell Center for Black Church Studies.
The form of church and worship perhaps doesn’t matter as much as the ends. We need new wineskins.
Words matter and the Gospel is bigger than we thought.
Dwight Radcliff is not convinced that much will change after Covid.
When ecclesiology becomes an end in itself, we miss what God’s call for the church is.
Pamela King suggests we think less about restoration and more about consummation.
Pamela King unpacks what she means by “consummation.”
When we don’t like where God is leading us we revert to our idols of comfort.
Dwight Radcliff shares what it was like for him as a pastor during this past year of Covid.
The experience of joy, according to Pamela King, and when we attune to those joy centers in our life, that is God speaking to us.
Dwight Radcliff has embraced the freedom to be flawed over this past year.
You can find out more about Dwight Radcliff on Twitter at @pastorrad and on Instagram at @pastorrad. You can also find out about Dwight’s work at the Pannell Center website.
You can find out more about Pamela King on Twitter at @drpamking and on Instagram at @drpamking, as well as at the Thrive Center website.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Jesus and the Disinherited, by Howard Thurman
- Inner Voice of Love, by Henri Nouwen
Pamela King:
- Twitter: @drpamking
- Instagram: @drpamking
- Thrive Center: https://thethrivecenter.org/
Dwight Radcliff:
- Twitter: @pastorrad
- Instagram: @pastorrad
- Pannell Center: https://www.fuller.edu/pannell-center/

—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links.

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee May 25, 2021

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Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee are on the faculty at Fuller Theological Seminary. In this episode, our conversation centers on the theme of resilience and the willingness to adapt. What does it mean to be resilient? And how do we become resilient leaders who are not only able but willing to adapt when called to do so?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Kurt Fredrickson leads the Doctor of Ministry and the Doctor of Global Leadership programs at Fuller Theological Seminary.
Cameron Lee is the Professor of Marriage and Family Studies at Fuller Theological Seminary.
For Cameron, it’s painful to see how the coronavirus has divided the church this past year.
Kurt Fredrickson noticed that when you have to adapt, you adapt. And the church adapted.
Visiting various online church services is not really church. The missing component is community.
Kurt Fredrickson's biggest fear is that we’re just going to go back to church as it used to be—over-programmed and under-discipled.
A crisis like this pandemic exposes the things that we tend to take for granted.
To lead after Covid, leaders need to cultivate resilience, gratitude, and the ability to hold things loosely.
Ministry leaders need to practice Sabbath. But it can be hard to practice Sabbath when one day bleeds into the next (as it seemed during the pandemic).
Kurt Fredrickson defines resilience in terms of its opposite—the inability to snap back or be flexible.
Cameron Lee connects resilience to the ability to manage stress.
Cameron Lee shares how Covid has personally affected him, including the loss of his mother.
To find out more about Kurt Fredrickson’s work, visit his Fuller Seminary profile page.
You can find out more about Cameron Lee’s work by visiting his Fuller Seminary profile page or his blog, Squinting Through Fog.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Tempered Resilience, by Tod Bolsinger
- That Their Work Will Be a Joy, by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee
- Surfing the Edge of Chaos, by Richard Pascale, Mark Milleman, and Linda Gioja
Kurt Fredrickson:
- Fuller Seminary profile page
Cameron Lee:
- Fuller Seminary profile page
- Squinting Through Fog blog
Related episodes

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

102. Presence and Practices: The Church After Covid, with Ahmi Lee and David Taylor May 11, 2021

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This episode is the second part of a four-part series exploring the "Church After Covid." In this conversation, Fuller Seminary professors Ahmi Lee and David Taylor, focus on both the need for embodied presence in our lives and ministry as we return to life after Covid, and the importance of spiritual practices to help us stay grounded as we make that transition.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Dr. Ahmi Lee is Assistant Professor of Preaching at Fuller Theological Seminary.
Dr. David Taylor is Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary.
David Taylor notes two things that he learned during the pandemic. First, our bodies matter; our embodied presence matters. Second, fractures in our culture don’t happen overnight.
Ahmi Lee discusses the fragility of life that became so clear during the pandemic. But recognizing our fragility has also taught us to be present with one another.
It’s important for us to not romanticize the past.
Ahmi Lee considers the way the act of preaching was affected by the pandemic.
David Taylor says churches should continue to think about how digital media can help fulfill the mission of the church. Because of digital media, many who couldn’t attend church were able to participate for the first time in a long time.
At the same time, the church should explore how to live more fully into embodied relationships.
Church leaders need to ask God to teach us how to do less so we can be truly present to each other.
We’re not creative or adaptive enough to face all the changes in a rapidly changing world. What we need more than ever is to be grounded.
Ahmi Lee has found strength in the old spiritual practices.
Surrender and trust are what Ahmi Lee has learned most during the pandemic.
David Taylor has discovered, during the pandemic, how addicted he is to productivity and achievement.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Ahmi Lee:
- Fuller Seminary Faculty Profile Page
David Taylor:
- https://www.wdavidotaylor.com/
Church Leadership Institute
- https://depree.org/church/
- Facebook page

Reviews help listeners find this podcast. To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
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Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

101. Gratitude, Grief, and Guilt: The Church After Covid, with Scott Cormode and Alexia Salvatierra Apr 27, 2021

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This episode is part one of a four-part series titled, "The Church After Covid. In this episode, we are speaking with Fuller Seminary professors Scott Cormode and Alexia Salvatierra. They will help us see the importance of expressing gratitude, moving through grief, and even acknowledging feelings of guilt, as we move into a post-pandemic world.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Scott Cormode is the Hugh De Pree Professor of Leadership Development at Fuller Theological Seminary and has recently written book titled The Innovative Church.
Alexia Salvatierra is the Assistant Professor of Integral Mission and Global Transformation at Fuller Seminary. Alexia also works with a network of immigrant and non-immigrant churches who advocate for immigrant families facing detention and deportation.
Alexia Salvatierra works primarily with Spanish-speaking churches and second generation multi-cultural churches.
Scott Cormode does a lot of work with the Fuller Youth Institute.
The biggest thing we’ve learned from this past year of Covid is that no one knows what is around the corner.
Preparation makes you agile.
In Spanish-speaking churches, the experience of Covid pushed them up against their lack of access to technology. But it also opened new opportunities for community and leadership.
In Spanish-speaking communities, Covid has been much more of a plague than in white communities.
As we move away from our Covid reality, we need to engage in both grief and gratitude.
Guilt is also an emotion that many will experience after the pandemic—survivor guilt.
Alexia shares how some documented families helped care for undocumented families.
Leadership begins with listening.
We need to listen with empathy because over this past year everyone has had their own experience.
The Gospel is God’s response to the human condition.
If you don’t listen, you can’t see what God is doing.
Alexia and Scott share how they have been formed spiritually through this year of pandemic.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- The Innovative Church, by Scott Cormode
- The Wounded Healer, by Henri Nouwen
Church Leadership Institute:
- www.depree.org/church
- Text CHANGE to 66866
CLI Course
- From Surviving to Thriving: Leading Your Church Into a Post Pandemic World

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

100. The Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod Bolsinger, Executive Director of the Church Leadership Institute Apr 13, 2021

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The Church Leadership Institute is a new initiative of Fuller Theological Seminary intended to "form church leaders to lead faithful change in a rapidly changing and disruptive world."
In this inaugural episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership's partnership with the Church Leadership Institute, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson have a conversation about leadership and formation for the sake of God’s mission in a rapidly changing world.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

This is the inaugural episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership in partnership with Fuller Theological Seminary’s Church Leadership Institute.
Most church leaders were trained to be teachers and pastors, not organizational change leaders.
The Church Leadership Institute is committed to providing all kinds of resources to church leaders who are struggling with leading change in a changing world.
Tod Bolsinger’s book, Tempered Resilience, is designed to help leaders lead when they are no longer the expert.
Healthy leadership involves surrender—surrendering to God and surrendering to the reality of our situation.
The Church Leadership Institute helps people navigate times of fruitful surrender.
Healthy leadership involves death and resurrection. Leaders need to die to what they had expected and rise to what God calls us to.
Leaders need to be grounded in something other than their success at leading change.
We need to be transformed for the sake of the mission God has given us.
We need to ask, what are the metrics of the transformed life?
Markus Watson characterizes the mission of God as the restoration of shalom in the world.
Markus shares the story of how his church started a Food Pantry in the town of Westmorland, CA.
Leaders who navigate change well create an environment of experimentation.
“Don’t predict. Prototype.”
The Church Leadership Institute offers four broad types of resources to help leaders in churches lead change well:
- Courses
- Coaching
- Cohorts
- Consulting
To find out more about the Church Leadership Institute, go to www.depree.org/church or text CHANGE to 66866.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Church Leadership Institute:
- www.depree.org/church
- Text CHANGE to 66866
CLI Course
- From Surviving to Thriving: Leading Your Church Into a Post Pandemic World
Related episodes:
Books mentioned:
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
- Tempered Resilience, by Tod Bolsinger
- When Narcissi

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

99. A Church that Shines, with Tara Beth Leach, author of Radiant Church Mar 30, 2021

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Radiant Church, by Tara Beth Leach, is an invitation to the church to restore "the credibility of our witness."
It's no secret that the church in the West has been in decline for decades. Why is that? Could it be because the world no longer sees a radiant body of Christ, but rather a people who are angry, judgmental and self-centered?
This conversation with Tara Beth Leach explores what the church has lost in terms of our witness—our radiance in the world—and how we might be able to reclaim it.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tara Beth Leach is the author of Radiant Church and Pastor of Missional Living at Christ Church in Oak Brook, Illinois.
Tara Beth shares about her transition from Los Angeles back to Chicago.
Tara Beth talks about why she wrote Radiant Church.
Radiant Church is written as a critique of white evangelicalism. Tara Beth hopes to lead the church into a healthy deconstruction.
Tara Beth asks, “What if we’re in a post-Christian church?”
“Our call throughout the entire narrative of scripture is to be a holy, radiant, counter-cultural community.”
The church should live in such a way that the world would be drawn to us. Unfortunately, we seem to have done the opposite.
White pastors in particular need to listen.
Tara Beth Leach shares a story in which she told a black classmate that racism didn’t exist anymore. But she learned differently and discovered she needed to listen more.
Tara Beth recalls a story she tells in Radiant Church where she cancelled an annual choir concert in order to call the church to pray for racial healing at an event at Pasadena city hall.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Radiant Church, by Tara Beth Leach
- Jesus and John Wayne, by Kristin Kobes du Mez
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
- Tempered Resiliance, by Tod Bolsinger
Related Episodes:
- Episode 28: Empowering Women in Ministry, with Tara Beth Leach
Church Leadership Institute

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Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
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98. Deconstruction and Reconstruction, with A.J. Swoboda, author of After Doubt Mar 16, 2021

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Deconstruction is the dismantling of one’s theological concepts. Which sounds really bad, doesn’t it?

But it doesn’t have to be. Deconstruction doesn’t have to conclude with the loss of one’s faith. In fact, it can lead to an even deeper relationship with Jesus.

A.J. Swoboda has written an eye-opening book titled After Doubt: How to Question Your Faith without Losing It, in which he explores not only the experience of deconstruction, but also reconstruction. And that’s exactly what we talk about in this episode.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

A.J. Swoboda is Assistant Professor Bible and Theology at Bushnell University, leads a D.Min. program on the Holy Spirit and Leadership at Fuller Seminary, and co-hosts the In Faith and Doubt podcast. And author of After Doubt.
Deconstruction is the dismantling of one’s theological concepts.
We all go through three major stages in our belief journey: construction, deconstruction, and reconstruction.
People who are able to enter the reconstruction stage—after experiencing deconstruction—share some things in common.
According to Kendra Creasy Dean, author of Almost Christian, such people (1) saw their parents go through something difficult and kept following Jesus, and (2) had at least five Christian adults in their life.
Many young people seem to be engaging in deconstruction in order to better follow Jesus.
Many people are deconstructing “fake Christianity,” not actual Christianity.
When we know someone who is experiencing deconstruction, sometimes we need to just listen.
For A.J. Swoboda, the goal of deconstruction and reconstruction is to come back to the same Jesus, but in a new way.
The story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15 is a type of deconstruction and reconstruction story.
In the past, honor cultures preserved traditions. But we live in an achievement culture, which presses toward the new and lets go of the past. This is one reason why deconstruction is so common.
“For those in deconstruction, more often than not, the itch is of the heart, not of the mind.”
A.J. Swoboda reflects on whether pastors and leaders need to deconstruct.
We need communities where people in construction, deconstruction, and reconstruction are all worshiping together.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

A.J. Swoboda:
- Twitter: @mrajswoboda
- Website: ajswobodawrites.com
Books mentioned:
- After Doubt, by A.J. Swoboda
- Almost Christian, by Kendra Creasy Dean
Related episodes:
- Episode 70: The Subversiveness of Sabbath, with A.J. Swoboda

—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

97. Not a Throw-away Kid, with Amy Watson, host of Wednesdays with Watson Mar 10, 2021

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Amy Watson, host of Wednesdays with Watson, shares her story of trauma and healing, and shows leaders how to care for those who have experienced deep trauma.
I'm also joined by guest co-hosts Shea and Michelle Watson from The Pantry Podcast. Yes, all four of us have the same last name and none of us are related to each other! This podcast is part of what we are affectionately calling "The Watson Takeover"!
We're all interviewing each other this week. Please check out all our shows!
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Amy Watson is the host of the Wednesdays with Watson podcast. Shea and Michelle Watson host The Pantry Podcast.
Amy Watson shares the story of being sexually and physically abused as a child.
At the age of fourteen, Amy was abandoned by her mom.
Amy Watson was soon taken in temporarily by a pastor and his wife.
Eventually, Amy was placed in a children’s home. She remembers these as the best years of her life.
In her young adulthood, Amy entered into an abusive marriage.
Amy’s pastor’s wife helped her get out of her marriage.
Amy Watson reminds herself often that she is not a throw-away kid. She is a precious daughter of the Most High God.
Amy Watson’s passion is to help people know that they don’t have to live in the darkness, even if they are trauma survivors.
For Amy, “love” always referred to something for which she would owe something in return.
Pastors need to know that when they meet someone who has been abused and traumatized, they simply want to be loved without expecting anything in return.
Pastors need to look for the "Amy Watsons" in our churches.
Churches need to take the stigma away from mental health and PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder).
According to Amy Watson, “Me too” are two of the most powerful words in the English language.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Podcasts:
- Wednesdays with Watson, with Amy Watson
- The Pantry Podcast, with Shea and Michelle Watson
Websites:
- Amywatsonauthor.com
- thirtyone25.com
Books:
- A Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
- We Too, by Mary DeMuth

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Select the number of stars and write your review.
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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

96. Crossing Leadership Thresholds, with Jeff Crosby, Publisher of InterVarsity Press Mar 02, 2021

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Jeff Crosby, Publisher of InterVarsity Press, has learned the importance of discerning what he calls thresholds—those places and times in a leader's life when it becomes clear that a transition is about to take place. Jeff shares with us the way he has been able to discern how to navigate these leadership thresholds.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jeff Crosby is the Publisher of InterVarsity Press, and the Chairman of the Board for the ECPA (Evangelical Christian Publishers Association).
When Jeff was in high school, he was given a Bible and a book titled, Me Be Like Jesus?by Leslie Flynn. This began his journey of faith.
Soon Jeff Crosby discovered authors like John Stott, Francis Schaeffer, James Sire, and Paul Little, all of whom were published by InterVarsity Press, the company for which Jeff has now been working for the past twenty-three years.
Jeff Crosby and his wife re-opened a Logos bookstore in 1983 near the Indiana University campus. Though this was a risk for a young couple, it was a calling.
Jeff and his wife continued running the bookstore until a competitor that branded itself as “The World’s Biggest Bookstore” came along. That competitor was Amazon.com.
Eventually, Jeff Crosby was invited to join InterVarsity Press.
In 2015, Jeff Crosby became the publisher of InterVarsity Press.
Jeff never aspired to be a chief executive of an organization. Originally, he wanted to be a truck driver!
Several people were instrumental in helping Jeff discern next steps:
- Jeff’s wife
- Mentors
- An informal “advisory council” of friends
Books have also provided guidance throughout his life.
As a natural peacemaker, one of Jeff’s greatest leadership challenges has been to recognize that the absence of conflict is not always possible or even desirable.
Jeff Crosby has grown in his ability to embrace mystery.
Jeff has found it is more important for leaders to be attentive listeners than polished presenters.
You can follow Jeff on Twitter at @jeffcrosby2. You can find out about InterVarsity Press at www.ivpress.com. And you are welcome to e-mail Jeff at jcrosby@ivpress.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jeff Crosby
- Twitter: @jeffcrosby2
- E-mail: jcrosby@ivpress.com
InterVarsity Press website
Books mentioned:
- Me Be Like Jesus?by Leslie Flynn
- Visions of Vocation by Steven Garber
- Courage and Calling by Gordon Smith
- Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer
Related episodes:
- Episode 77: To Know the World and Still Love It, with Steven Garber, author of Visions of Vocation

—
Links to Amazo

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

95. Judgment and Grace, with Jay Bakker, pastor of Revolution Church Feb 16, 2021

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Jay Bakker, the son of televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, was 11 years old when his parents’ ministry started to fall apart and only 13 when his dad began his prison term. It's hard to imagine what that experience must have been like for him.
In this episode, Jay Bakker and I talk about what it was like for him. And we talk about how his experience shaped him spiritually—especially in regard to his understanding of judgment and grace.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jay Bakker is the pastor of Revolution Church and the son Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker.
Elton John is currently working on a musical about Jay’s mom and a movie about Jay’s parents, titled The Eyes of Tammy Faye, is coming out in 2021 or 2022.
Jay Bakker shares what it was like for him as a kid when his family’s life and ministry fell apart.
Jerry Falwell turned on Jim Bakker.
For a while, Jay thought that God must be a mean, angry God.
Jay Bakker started Revolution Church when his dad was released from prison.
Jay shares how he discovered the idea of grace, which, he says is still evolving in his life.
Jay learned what love for others looks like by watching his parents.
Jim Bakker helped Jay learn to forgive Jerry Falwell.
Jay talks about Tammy Faye’s witness when she was on The Surreal Life.
So often we return bad for bad, judgment for judgment. But we need to stop judging each other.
You can find out more about Jay Bakker at revolutionchurch.com. You can also listen to the Revolution podcast and follow Revolution Church on Facebook. You can also connect with Jay on Twitter at @jaybakker and on Instagram at @jaybakker.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:
Books mentioned:

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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94. Centering Prayer, with Rich Lewis, author of Sitting with God Feb 02, 2021

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Centering prayer is a form of silent, wordless prayer and a wonderful practice for spiritual formation. Rich Lewis, author of Sitting with God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer, has been practicing centering for a long time. He has writes about centering prayer, trains individuals and groups how to practice centering prayer, and in this episode teaches us how to engage in centering prayer.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Rich Lewis is the author of Sitting With God: A Journey to Your True Self Through Centering Prayer.
Though he has always enjoyed times of silence, Rich Lewis discovered the practice of centering prayer in 2013 through a book titled Healing the Divide by Amos Smith.
Centering prayer is a form of silent, wordless prayer.
Centering prayer was developed by three Trappist monks in the 1970’s.
You can learn a lot about centering prayer at the Contemplative Outreach website.
Centering prayer involves these steps:
- Sit quietly.
- Select a sacred word (e.g., Jesus, love, ocean).
- Introduce the word in your interior.
- When your mind gets distracted, come back to the center with your sacred word.
- Sit quietly until your time of centering prayer is done.
The sacred word doesn’t have to be a word. It could be an image. Rich uses an icon of Jesus as his centering anchor.
In centering prayer, it’s almost like God prays in us.
Centering prayer can lead to deep inner healing.
We are able to connect with our true self in centering prayer.
Rich Lewis offers a free e-book on centering prayer at his website, silenceteaches.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books:
- Sitting with God, by Rich Lewis
- The Heart of Centering Prayer, by Cynthia Bourgeault
- Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening, by Cynthia Bourgeault
- Healing the Divide, by Amos Smith
Websites
- www.silenceteaches.com
- www.contemplativeoutreach.org
Spiritual Life and Leadership Facebook Group
Episode 44: Spiritual Formation and Lectio Divina, with Eric Nevins, Host of Halfway There

—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

93. Is American Unity Possible? Jan 26, 2021

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Is American unity possible? Americans have wrestled with this question for years. After a violent insurrection and a new administration now in place, the question seems more important than ever.
Clearly, the United States is a divided nation. So divided, in fact, that many believe unity is not possible. How can staunch Trump supporters unite with the Democratic party? How can staunch Biden supporters unite with the Republican party? It seems beyond the realm of possibility.
And, yet, I believe we can rebuild unity. In this episode, I share my thoughts on how to do that--not by getting everyone to agree on everything, but by taking small steps toward civility, kindness, and respect toward one another.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

America is terribly polarized. Is American unity possible?
I think American unity is possible. What seems impossible for human beings is possible with God.
Unity is not uniformity. We don't all have to be the same or agree on everything.
The Trinity is an example of unity in diversity. The church is also an example of unity in diversity.
How can we begin to rebuild American unity?
- Start with civility.
- Start with your friends and family.
- Give each other the benefit of the doubt.
- Listen, really listen, to each other.
- Pray for each other.
Is American unity possible? If we take these small steps, I believe it is.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

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92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, authors of A Church Called Tov Jan 19, 2021

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Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer have written a powerful book that addresses abuse of power in churches. The book is titled, A Church Called Tov, and the purpose is to help churches nurture cultures of goodness (the meaning of the Hebrew word tov).
In this episode, we discuss why some churches develop toxic cultures of abuse and how to work against that by nurturing cultures of goodness.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Laura Barringer is a second grade teacher and this is her second book co-authored with her father, Scot McKnight.
Scot McKnight is the Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary. He is also a prolific author and an ordained Anglican deacon.
Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer were attending Willow Creek Community Church when allegations against Bill Hybels began to emerge.
Scot and Laura were led to write about the need for a goodness culture in churches. This is why they wrote A Church Called Tov.
Willow Creek was misusing Scripture as it defended itself.
Scot McKnight explains why they felt it was important to name the pastors who abused women in their churches when writing A Church Called Tov.
In the Bible, people’s stories are told “warts and all.”
Tov is the Hebrew word for “good.” Tov describes the fullness of total moral behavior.
A tov church/pastor/elder/person does not abuse power, women, or children.
Scot McKnight is not comfortable with “leadership culture” in churches. The word “leader” is not a significant word in the New Testament.
Pastors should not be promoted as superstars.
We won’t develop a culture of tov if we are only counting how many people show up on Sundays.
Scot McKnight is interested in seminaries becoming institutes of tov formation.
You can reach Scot and Laura on Twitter at @scotmcknight and @laurambarringer.
You can follow Scot McKnight's work at his Jesus Creed blog.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- A Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer
- The Blue Parakeet, by Scot McKnight
- A Fellowship of Differents, by Scot McKnight
- Junia is Not Alone, by Scot McKnight
Twitter:
- Scot Mcknight, @scotmcknight
- Laura Barringer, @laurabarringer
Scot McKnight's Blog:
- Jesus Creed blog
Online course:
- Leading Your Church Through Change

—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

91. Prayer for a President in Pain Jan 09, 2021

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The events of this past week, and especially January 6, 2021, have been astonishing. Never did I imagine that American citizens would attack and infiltrate the United States Capitol building. But it happened.
And at the center of this is Donald Trump, the President of the United States. As problematic as Donald Trump's presidency has been, he is a beloved child of God who is in deep pain right now. And I feel compelled to pray for him with compassion.
In this episode, I share some of my thoughts on the events of January 6, Donald Trump's character, and the pain he must be feeling right now.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

The insurrection and storming of the U.S. Capitol was an unbelievable and horrifying event.
Donald Trump's character and leadership led to this insurrection because Donald Trump established an "us vs. them" mentality.
Donald Trump's presidency has proven to be a failure in these final weeks.
Now, Donald Trump is in considerable pain.
We need to pray with compassion for Donald Trump.
Markus prays for Donald Trump.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

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90. Transformative Loss, with Kevin White, author of Audacious Generosity Jan 05, 2021

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Kevin White, author of Audacious Generosity, shares his story of being terminated from the church he had planted just a few years earlier. That experience could have crushed him. But gave him deeper clarity about what really matters—and it led to a whole new ministry that blesses hundred of people every month.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Kevin White is the Executive Director of Global Hope India and author of Audacious Generosity.
Kevin White shares how his organization, Global Hope India, had to pivot during the pandemic.
Kevin’s primary purpose in life is to pursue God’s presence.
The church that Kevin had planted voted to let him go after several years. This was an incredibly painful moment in Kevin’s life. It was this experience that showed him that God’s presence is the most important thing.
This led to a time of extreme financial insecurity.
Because of the financial insecurity, Kevin White and his family started a ministry that provided food both for his family and eventually for five hundred families every month.
The experience of loss and suffering makes us more compassionate.
Kevin White’s experience of loss and suffering led him to start his organization, Global Hope India.
God’s plan has always been audacious generosity.
Audacious generosity is a means toward the end of experiencing God’s presence.
When people experience suffering and loss they can become cynical and bitter or they can become healthy and compassionate. Kevin White says that it was the practice of forgiveness that helped him become healthy and compassionate.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Kevin White:
- Website – kevinwhite.us
- Instagram - @kevinwhiteus
- Facebook - @kevinwhite.usa
- Twitter - @kevinwhiteus
- LinkedIn - @kevinwhiteus
- E-mail – kevin@kevinwhite.us
Books mentioned:
- Audacious Generosity, by Kevin White
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
Other Resources:
- Beyond Thingification Study Guide

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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89. The God Who Sets Things Right, Luke 1:46-55 Dec 22, 2020

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God is a God who sets things right. And that's what we see in Mary's Song--The Magnificat--in Luke 1:46-55.
As we approach the end of 2020, for many of us it is clearer than ever just how broken our world is. Disease. Racism. Poverty and lost financial security. Violence. Division. Injustice. These are the kinds of headlines that dominated the news this past year.

But as broken as our world clearly is, it’s actually not morebroken than the world into which Jesus was born. Jesus’ world, too, was filled with disease, racism, poverty, violence, division, and injustice. And in Mary's Song, in Luke 1:46-55, Mary praises the God who is sending his Son to set these things right.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

In January 2020, Oxfam International reported that the 2153 billionaires in the world have more wealth than the 4.6 billion poorest people who make up 60% of the world’s population.
- The combined wealth of the 26 richest people in the world is the same as the combined wealth of the world's poorest 3.8 billion people.
Mary’s song in Luke 1:46-55 addresses God’s perspective on such inequity.
Mary’s song is divided into four parts:
- Mary’s blessing
- Transition
- The Great Reversal
- God’s faithfulness to Israel
Why is God interested in bringing low the powerful and raising up the weak and poor? Because God is a God of justice.
We can see God’s desire to set things right throughout the Old Testament.
Jesus came to set things right.
Jesus' first ministry words in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 4:16-21) address Jesus’ desire to set things right.
We’re invited to join Jesus in setting things right.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Scriptures:
- Luke 1:46-55
- Luke 4:16-21
Six Practices of a Flourishing Church (downloadable PDF)
Oxfam International statistics

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88. The Border Church, with Seth Clark Dec 08, 2020

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The Border Church is a beautiful and prophetic expression of border resistance as followers of Jesus in San Diego, California, join together at the border with Jesus-followers in Tijuana, Mexico--even sharing Communion through the border fence.
In this episode, I’m speaking with Seth Clark, Director of the Pastoral Team forThe Border Church.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Seth Clark is the Lead Pastor at First Baptist Church of National City (in San Diego) and Director of the Pastoral Team on the U.S. side of The Border Church.
Seth shares his faith journey. He grew up in the Plymouth Brethren tradition.
Numerous experiences helped Seth recognize that his view of the world was shaped by his particular lens.
Seth has been involved in The Border Church for about three years.
Friendship Park was instituted at the San Diego/Tijuana border by Pat Nixon (Richard Nixon’s wife).
Friendship Park was meant to be a place of connection. But over the years, it has become more and more difficult to connect.
Seth Clark describes what it’s like to worship at The Border Church, which meets at Friendship Park.
Seth Clark did his doctoral dissertation on The Border Church. The title of his dissertation is Open Wound, Open Table.
Seth shares how he has been formed spiritually since getting involved at The Border Church.
To find out more about The Border Church, visit www.borderchurch.org. You can also connect on Facebook at www.facebook.com/borderchurch.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

The Border Church
- Website: www.borderchurch.org
- Facebook: www.facebook.com/borderchurch
Spiritual Life and Leadership Facebook Group
- www.markuswatson.com/sllgroup

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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87. Racism and the Trials of Hercules, with Dr. Jerome Butler, host of Moments of Grace Nov 24, 2020

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Dr. Jerome Butler, host of the Moments of Grace podcast and author of numerous books, shares about his experiences with racism and likens the African American experience to the trials of Hercules in Greek mythology—a fascinating comparison!
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Dr. Jerome Butler is the host of the Moments of Grace podcast. Books he has authored include Managing the Miracle, Power of Your Destiny, and Transformation of the Mind.
Dr. Butler’s daughter wrote a children’s book titled The Krystal Kingdom, which is a parable about foster care.
The first time Dr. Butler really became aware of racism was when the Central Park Five were falsely accused.
For nine years, Dr. Butler was a Muslim while in the military. He shares how came back to faith in Jesus.
Dr. Jerome Butler began to experience racism personally in his places of work.
Dr. Butler compares the African American experience to the trials of Hercules in Greek mythology. Every time he met the demands of the gods, the gods would move the goal posts.
“We have done everything that has been asked of us…. When do we get an opportunity to enjoy ‘Olympus’ with the rest of society?”
Is there such a thing as systemic racism? Dr. Butler explains why there is.
Find out more about Dr. Jerome Butler at www.drajrbutler.com. You can also e-mail Dr. Butler at ajrbutler@gmail.com. You can even call Dr. Butler, if you’d like, at 864-324-4886.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Dr. Jerome Butler
- Website: www.drajrbutler.com
- E-mail: ajrbutler@gmail.com
- Phone: 864-324-4886
- Podcast: Moments of Grace
Books mentioned:
- Managing the Miracle, by Dr. Jerome Butler
- Power of Your Destiny, by Dr. Jerome Butler
- Transformation of the Mind, by Dr. Jerome Butler
- The Krystal Kingdom, by Audreuna Butler

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

86. Leading Like Jesus, with Ken Blanchard Nov 10, 2020

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Leading like Jesus means healthy leadership. Ken Blanchard has been writing and teaching about healthy leadership for a long time. In this interview, Ken shares about his youth, how he came to faith, what it was like when The One-Minute Manager became a massive success (including how it impacted his faith journey), and what it means to lead like Jesus.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ken Blanchard is the Co-founder and Chief Spiritual Officer of the Ken Banchard Companies, as well as the author of Lead Like Jesus, Leading at a Higher Level, and The One-Minute Manager.
“Great leaders are great because people trust and respect them, not because they have power.”
Ken Blanchard wrote Management of Organizational Behavior: Leading Human Resources with Paul Hersey.
Ken Blanchard wrote The One Minute Manager as a parable with Spencer Johnson, who had written children’s books.
Ken Blanchard’s mission statement is: “To be a loving teacher and an example of simple truths that help myself and others to awaken to the presence of God in their lives, and to help us realize we’re here to serve, not to be served.”
Ken shares how he came to faith in Jesus.
Ken Blanchard explains the concept of situational leadership (SL2) and how it relates to leading like Jesus.
If you use only one leadership style all the time, it will be effective sometimes and very ineffective most of the time. Leading like Jesus requires us to vary our leadership style.
Our ego can get in the way of healthy leadership and in the way of leading like Jesus.
Ken defines EGO as “Edging God Out.” When we surrender to God we can turn our EGO into “Exalting God Only.”
To find out more about Ken Blanchard, go to www.kenblanchard.com and www.leadlikejesus.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Ken Blanchard:
- www.kenblanchard.com
- www.leadlikejesus.com
Books mentioned:
- Lead Like Jesus, by Ken Blanchard
- Leading at a Higher Level, by Ken Blanchard
- The One-Minute Manager, by Ken Blanchard
- Management of Organizational Behavior, by Ken Blanchard
Episodes mentioned:

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

85. Pledge and Consent, with Esther Lightcap Meek, author of A Little Manual for Knowing Oct 27, 2020

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Pledge and consent are crucial in the experience of knowing. In this episode, Esther Lightcap Meek and I talk about chapter 2 of her book, A Little Manual for Knowing. In that chapter—and in this episode—Esther shows us that if we are to truly know someone or something, then we need to pledge ourselves to that which is yet-to-be-known. We need to pledge ourselves to the “knowing venture” and we need to pledge to be open to—to consent to—the reality of that which we are coming to know.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Esther Lightcap Meek is the Professor of Philosophy at Geneva College and the author of A Little Manual for Knowing.
To truly know something or someone, one must “pledge” oneself to that thing or person. Pledge to live life on the terms of the yet-to-be-known. Pledge to do what it takes to know it. Pledge to be ok with it once it reveals itself.
In Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, Annie Dillard describes what it takes to stalk a muskrat. One must hold still, give up one’s dignity, and wait. Esther says this is covenantal language.
Knowing something or someone requires consent. We have to say yes to what or who it truly is. Knowing requires pledge and consent.
“All of reality is the consent of God. Everywhere your eye lands, your eye is landing on God’s ‘Yes!’”
The opposite of pledge and consent is acedia, commonly known at sloth.
Dallas Willard says that if we’re going to love God, we have to consent and say “yes” to ourselves. Saying “yes” to who you are as you are.
In the movie, Avatar, one of the characters says to the other, “I see you.” It was an act of ultimate consent.
Markus refers to a poem by Madeleine L’Engle, cited in Visions of Vocation by Steve Garber. The poem shows that in marriage we must pledge and consent to who our spouse truly is if we are to truly know them.
Esther discusses confirmation bias.
In the story of the Road to Emmaus, the disciples were able to let go of a preconception that allowed them then to know Jesus.
“Reality, by definition, is God and His stuff.”
“All knowing is transformative.”
Esther connects the knowing venture to the experience of worship.
Esther is beginning a book series called Doorways, in which each volume will connect the knowing venture to a different discipline.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books:
- A Little Manual for Knowing, by Esther Lightcap Meek
- Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard
- Visions of Vocation, by Steve Garber
- The Hobbit, by J.R.R. Tolkien
- The Gospel in a Pluralist Society, Lesslie Newbigin
- The Fabric of Faithfulness, by Steve Garber
Related episodes:
- Episode 46: Inviting the Real, with Esther Lightcap Meek

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

84. Grace-Filled Politics, with Aaron Schafer, author of The Politically Homeless Christian Oct 20, 2020

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Aaron Schafer has written an excellent book titled, The Politically Homeless Christian, in which he explores the current state of politics and how we as followers of Jesus are called to engage politically.
And that's what we talk about in this episode. If you, too, find yourself politically homeless, you will find this conversation incredibly valuable.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Aaron Schafer is a blogger, podcaster, and author of The Politically Homeless Christian, as well as the Director of Sales for a company called Self-Publishing School.
Aaron feels a deep sadness around the divisiveness in the United States.
“The earth is not our home—and a political party certainly shouldn’t be.”
In Episode 79, Markus spoke with Michael Cooper about the “the loss of evangelical identity,” and how hard it is to talk about Jesus in other parts of the world because Jesus has come to be identified with certain political positions, rather than with the good news of God’s love.
Neither political party has a monopoly on good ideas.
Grace-filled politics begins by embracing humility.
“I wonder how much of what I believe politically I believe simply because I’ve always believed it.”
Facebook feeds us content that merely confirms our worldview.
Aaron Schafer shares his thoughts on the Second Amendment.
We often listen in order to win an argument more than we listen to understand.
Aaron shares his thoughts on the effectiveness of stimulus checks during the 2020 pandemic.
It’s important for us to be able to change our minds when we get new information.
“I hope as Christians we would err on the side of generosity.”
You can find The Politically Homeless Christianon Amazon. The e-book will be available for .99 until Nov. 3, 2020 (election day).
Aaron Schafer’s blog is www.aaronschaferblog.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Aaron Schafer:
- Website: www.aaronschaferblog.com
Books:
- The Politically Homeless Christian, by Aaron Schafer
Related episodes:
- Episode 79: The Loss of Evangelical Identity, with Michael Cooper
- Episode 55: Healing Our Polarized World, with Dan White, Jr.

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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83. Disorienation and Spiritual Leadership, with Tod Bolsinger, author of Leadership for a Time of Pandemic Oct 13, 2020

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Tod Bolsinger, author of Leadership for a Time of Pandemic, knows about leadership in times of disorientation. And 2020 is certainly a time of disorientation! A global pandemic. A worldwide economic recession. Social unrest and an outcry for racial justice.
But it’s not the first time we’ve experienced disorientation. Perhaps what makes 2020 unique is the global nature of what is happening and the fact that the challenges won’t seem to go away.
In this episode, Tod Bolsinger helps us explore what is required of spiritual leaders in times of disorientation.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the author of Leadership for a Time of Pandemic.
Tod explains what it means to not “waste a crisis.”
There are two stages in a crisis: the acute stage and the adaptive stage.
Vulnerable self-reflection is needed to develop the strength to be a resilient leader.
“The vulnerability of leadership needs the security of many relationships.”
According to Tod Bolsinger, the hardest thing in times of adaptive change is the internal resistance of one’s own people.
In this time of pandemic, we need resilient leadership.
People don’t resist change. They resist loss.
Rationalization is about coming up with reasons for avoiding necessary pain.
“You need an identity that is grounded in something other than your success as a leader.”
Text “uncharted” to 66866 to find out more about Tod Bolsinger and his work.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Tod Bolsinger:
- Text “uncharted” to 66866
Books mentioned:
- Leadership for a Time of Pandemic, by Tod Bolsinger
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
- Tempered Resilience, by Tod Bolsinger
Related episodes:
- Episode 16: Canoeing the Mountains, with Tod Bolsinger
Spiritual Life and Leadership Facebook Group:
- www.markuswatson.com/sllgroup

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

82. Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat, author of When Narcissism Comes to Church Sep 29, 2020

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Chuck DeGroat has written a fantastic book titled, When Narcissism Comes to Church, which he unpacks for us in this episode.
Most of us who are in positions of spiritual leadership have some tendencies toward narcissism. Many of us want to be loved and respected--and sometimes we think of ourselves as pretty awesome.
But then there are those who are truly narcissistic, who are so unhealthy that they leave a wake of misery and destruction in their ministries.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care at Western Theological Seminary and author of When Narcissism Comes to Church.
As a young pastor, Chuck started to notice the way narcissistic pastors were preferred.
Chuck DeGroat discusses why the church is a breeding ground for narcissism.
The church has a strange love affair with power, despite the fact that our faith is based on the crucified One.
Chuck DeGroat explains what he means by “healthy narcissism.” Children, for instance, need to believe they are the center of their parents’ world. A certain narcissism is developmentally appropriate for children at that age.
Richard Rohr uses the language of “first half of life” and “second half of life” to refer to healthy narcissism.
Chuck DeGroat describes how narcissism manifests itself in the church.
Serving in a church led by a narcissist can be a traumatic experience.
Pastors need to be “wounded healers,” as Henri Nouwen said.
Markus shares how he has grown to care for people more than he used to.
If you are serving under a narcissistic leader, it’s helpful to get therapy for yourself to unpack what is going on.
Chuck DeGroat shares his own experience of spiritual growth as he has studied narcissism.
You can find out more about Chuck DeGroat at chuckdegroat.net.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Chuck DeGroat
- Website – www.chuckdegroat.net
Books mentioned:
- Narcissism in the Church, by Chuck DeGroat
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
- Falling Upward, by Richard Rohr
- The Critical Journey, by Janet Hagberg and Robert Guelich
- The Wounded Healer, by Henri Nouwen

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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

81. Anger and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck Whitley Sep 15, 2020

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Chuck Whitley knows that if you’re a leader, you have experienced anger. Well, if you’re a human being, you’ve experienced anger.

The truth is, anger is a normal, natural human emotion. The question is, as leaders, how should we navigate our anger in a way that is ultimately productive and that leads to greater health for our organization and greater shalom for those we lead?
Chuck Whitley, helps us better understand what’s going on when we experience anger and how to navigate it in a way that brings flourishing to us and to the world.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Chuck Whitley does executive coaching and is the Executive Director of 4C Business. Chuck coaches from a biblical worldview.
Chuck Whitley came to faith as he was about to commit suicide.
As a pastor, Chuck Whitley would pray with business people in his church.
Chuck’s work now is very much like spiritual direction for business leaders.
Anger is essentially the way we enact the fight or flight response to stressful situations.
People must first be able to identify that they are experiencing anger. Then they must identify the system they are angry about, rather than the person they are angry at.
Chuck Whitley explains the anger-blame cycle.
Pastors generally have a theology of forgiveness, but they don’t always have a practice of forgiveness.
In order to walk others through the process of dealing with anger, Chuck Whitley has to go through the process himself first.
You can reach Chuck Whitley at www.4cbusiness.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

4C Business

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80. A Gospel That Feels Like Good News, with James Choung, author of True Story Sep 01, 2020

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James Choung, the author of True Story: A Christianity Worth Believing In, outlines a way of talking about Jesus that addresses, not only our need for eternal life, but also God’s desire to bring restoration to the world today and our invitation to participate with God in that work of restoration.

This is a fantastic interview about sharing a Gospel that is truly good news, not only for the afterlife, but also—and perhaps even more importantly—for the here and now.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

James Choung is Vice President of Strategy and Innovation for InterVarsity and author of True Story: A Christianity Worth Believing In, Real Life: A Christianity Worth Living Out, and Longing For Revival: From Holy Discontent to Breakthrough Faith.
James encountered Jesus in college through Intervarsity Christian Fellowship.
James Choung began to ask if the way we present the Gospel is creating selfish Christians.
Dallas Willard, who was teaching a Doctor of Ministry class that James was taking, asked, “What is the Gospel Jesus preached?” That was a turning point for James.
The Gospel Jesus preached was, “The Kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news.”
The Kingdom of God is not just about what happens when we die, but also about what happens now in this life.
You can view videos of James Choung's Gospel diagram HERE. You can also download a PDF explanation HERE.
The four components of the Gospel are that we have been:
- Designed for good
- Damaged by evil
- Restored for better
- Sent together to heal
Is a gospel that has no social impact actually good news?
Understanding the Gospel in this way made the Gospel once again feel like good news to James.
James Choung’s most recent book is titled, Longing for Revival.
To connect with James Choung visit jameschoung.net.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

James Choung:
- Website – www.jameschoung.net
- Gospel Presentation videos
- Gospel Presentation PDF
Books Mentioned:
- True Story: A Christianity Worth Believing In, by James Choung
- Real Life: A Christianity Worth Living Out, by James Choung
- Longing For Revival: From Holy Discontent to Breakthrough Faith, by James Choung
Other links:
- Bridge of the Faithful podcast
- Strongbad E-mail, "How to Draw a Dragon"

—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life a

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

79. The Loss of Evangelical Identity, with Michael Cooper, author of When Evangelicals Sneeze Aug 14, 2020

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Evangelical identity has changed. The word “evangelical” carries a lot of baggage these days. There was a time when it primarily denoted a theological conviction that included a recognition of the Scriptures as God’s word, an understanding of our need for salvation through Jesus, and a commitment to caring for the “least of these.”

Unfortunately, that’s no longer what most non-Christians think of when they hear the word “evangelical.” Today, evangelical identity has become--for a lot of people--synonymous with American, right wing, conservative politics.

In his book, delightfully titled, When Evangelicals Sneeze, Michael Cooper explores the historic meaning of evangelicalism and how evangelical identity has changed in recent years. And in this interview, we dive into those same topics.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Michael Cooper shares the story of a young Evangelical Palestinian woman who has experienced persecution because people in her community associate Evangelicalism with Donald Trump.
Feeling as though he had lost his evangelical identity, Michael “resigned” from Evangelicalism in a conversation with Doug Birdsall, former Executive Director for the Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization.
There are three marks of historic Evangelicalism:
- The Great Commandment: The defense of the faith.
- The Great Compassion: Our engagement in social justice.
- The Great Commission: The declaration of God’s glory to the nations.
Michael Cooper discusses the connection between Evangelicalism and conservative politics.
Michael explains what he means by the term, “Trumpgelical.” It seems this has in some ways become the new evangelical identity.
There are various kinds of evangelicals, including Trumpgelicals, Deconstructionists, Post-modernists, and Fundamentalists.
There is a difference between a Trumpgelical and an Evangelical person who voted for Trump.
The title of Michael Cooper’s book, When Evangelicals Sneeze, is a reference to the impact that American Evangelicalism has on global Evangelicalism.
When Evangelicals Sneeze is available on Amazon. You can find out more about Michael Cooper and his work at www.ephesiology.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Michael Cooper
- Ephesiology Website
Books mentioned:
- When Evangelicals Sneeze, by Michael Cooper
- Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement, by Michael Cooper

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Links to Amazon

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

78. Redefining Success, with Tim Winders, host of Seek Go Create Aug 04, 2020

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Tim Winders had it all. A beautiful home, three companies each valued in the millions. He was, by all accounts, very successful.
Then the 2008 recession hit and he and his family began the slow descent of financial collapse that culminated with the loss of their home and essentially becoming homeless.

In this episode, you’ll hear how Tim’s life was transformed through this experience and how his experience of suffering and loss drew him into a much deeper relationship with God than he could have ever imagined.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tim Winders is a business coach and host of the Seek Go Create podcast. He also just finished writing a novel which will be released soon.
In the early 2000’s, Tim owned real estate, coaching, and lead generation business valued in the millions of dollars.
Tim tells the story of how he lost his home when the economy collapsed in 2008. He and his wife became nomads living in an RV and have continued to live that way since then.
In his younger years, Tim's mind was set on experiencing as much financial success as possible.
After coming to faith, Tim Winders found himself believing aspects of the prosperity gospel.
As the economy fell apart in the years after 2008, Tim and his family had no choice but to seek the Lord.
Tim learned that he is a steward—not an owner—of everything he has.
Tim embarked on an eighteen-month study of the Kingdom of God. Tim defines the Kingdom of God as anywhere God is allowed to reign and rule.
Tim Winders describes how he defines success today.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Tim Winders and Seek Go Create
Markus Watson Patreon page

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77. To Know the World and Still Love It, with Steven Garber, author of Visions of Vocation Jul 21, 2020

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Steven Garber has spent his life helping people get a clearer understanding of vocation in general, but also helping them get clear on their own unique vocations. In this interview, he will do the same for you.
Near the end of the episode, Steve tells three brief stories to help us understand why pastors and churches need to have a robust understanding of vocation, so be sure you listen to the end.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Steven Garber is author of Visions of Vocation and Professor of Marketplace Theology at Regent College.
Steve shares his story and what led him to focus his work on matters of vocation.
“Who keeps on keeping on?” became the question of Steve’s life.
“Vocation” is a big word and a big concept. It is much more than a job or occupation.
The first question we ask must be, “Who am I?” The second must be, “Why am I?” From these two questions follows a third: “What should I do with my life?”
In his book, Steven Garber writes, “To know the world and still love it. There is not a more difficult task that human beings face.” Steve unpacks this statement.
Steve and Markus discuss marriage as a vocation, citing a series of poems by Madeleine L’Engle called To a Long-Loved Love.
Visions of Vocation focuses on the question, “Knowing what you know about yourself and the world, what are you going to do?”
Steve explains how he would help a person begin to understand their vocation.
Steven Garber shares three stories that demonstrate why it’s so important for ministry leaders to have a robust understanding of vocation.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Visions of Vocation: Common Grace for the Common Good, by Steven Garber
- The Ordering of Love: The New and Collected Poems of Madeleine L'Engle, by Madeleine L'Engle
- Work Matters: Connecting Sunday Worship to Monday Work, by Tom Nelson
Flourish San Diego
Six Practices of a Flourishing Church, free resource by Markus Watson

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

76. Losing Religion, Finding Love, with Jason Elam, host of Messy Spirituality Jul 07, 2020

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Jason Elam, host of the Messy Spirituality podcast, has an amazing story. As a pastor, Jason had all the answers, but he didn't have a lot of love. Then something happened. Today, Jason Elam is no longer a pastor and he doesn't have all the answers. But he has discovered the love of God in a way he could never have imagined before.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jason Elam is a former pastor and host of the Messy Spirituality podcast.
Jason is currently writing a book with the working title, From Ashes We Rise: Rebuilding Your Faith When Your Life Burns Down.
Jason was constantly afraid of God when he was a child.
Jason was often a guest speaker in churches who got people “back into line.”
It was by losing his church and losing his marriage that Jason hit “that bottom place.” This is where Jason began to learn that he was loved unconditionally by God.
Jason Elam had a near death experience as a child in which he experienced the unconditional acceptance of God. That acceptance always pulled him away from the legalism of his tradition.
During the final year of Jason Elam’s ministry, Jason’s church stopped holding worship service. Instead, they held an indoor farmer’s market with food for anyone who needed it.
We can only truly know God when we truly know ourselves.
Certainty makes preaching easier but living with yourself harder.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jason Elam:
- Website: www.messyspirituality.org
Books mentioned:
- Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life, by Richard Rohr
- The Gift of Being Yourself, by David Benner
- Surrender to Love, by David Benner
- Life of the Beloved, by Henri Nouwen

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

75. A Box with Feelings, with Macy Watson Jun 30, 2020

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To celebrate the 75th episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, I'm bringing a short conversation with my twelve-year-old daughter, Macy Watson. We talk about her thoughts on God and we talk about leadership.
Oh, and what the heck is "a box with feelings"? Well, you'll just have to listen to find out!
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Markus interviews his daughter, Macy, about her thoughts on 1) God and the spiritual life and 2) leadership.
Macy thinks of God as the most understanding Person ever.
Macy sometimes thinks of herself as “a box with feelings”.
Macy shares her experience as captain of her cheer team.
Macy believes forcing people to do what you want them to do is bad leadership.
Markus explains to Macy the metaphor of “the carrot and the stick.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- Facebook Group
- Facebook Page

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74. The Edge of Chaos, Part 3: Slowly, Then All of a Sudden Jun 23, 2020

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This is the third and final part of this series based on the book, Surfing the Edge of Chaos. I’ve been talking with Jason Coker about the role of disequilibrium in regard to systems and organizations; specifically, that the experience of disequilibrium actually makes a system or organization stronger.

And that goes for churches, as well, since churches are systems. When a church lingers for too long in a state of equilibrium—where everything is, y’know, fine—it actually becomes weaker and more at risk of dying. But when a church experiences disequilibrium at the edge of chaos—and is able to navigate that experience wisely—it becomes stronger, more resilient, and healthier.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jason Coker shares how he is doing in light of current events, particularly the call for racial justice.
The four principles of Surfing the Edge of Chaos are:
- Equilibrium is a precursor to death. When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it. This places it at maximum risk.
- In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos. This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.
- When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.
- Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path. Unforeseen consequences are inevitable. The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.
Markus explains self-organization using the examples of dental plaque and Tupperware.
Jason discusses the non-denominational movement of the 1960s and 1970s as an example of self-organization.
As churches are unable to meet in person during the coronavirus, what kind of self-organizing is taking place now?
Leaders have to step back and let go of control when self-organization begins to take place.
Jason discusses Black Lives Matter as a movement that is unable to be controlled by more established black leaders.
To be a strong leader is not necessarily to take control, but to refuse to take control.
Jason shares how his church went through a two-year process of discernment that led his church to change their name from First Christian Church of Oceanside to Oceanside Sanctuary.
Change happens “at first slowly” and then “all of a sudden.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jason Coker
- Oceanside Sanctuary
Books mentioned:
- Surfing the Edge of Chaos: The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, et.al.
Beyond Thingification Study Guide

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73. The Edge of Chaos, Part 2: Fresh New Solutions Jun 09, 2020

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In this episode, Jason and I talk about the second principle in the book, Surfing the Edge of Chaos. We talk about how the experience of disequilibrium evokes creative experimentation and fresh new solutions that leads to greater health. And, specifically, we talk about how this unfolded in Jason’s church, Oceanside Sanctuary.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

The four principles of Surfing the Edge of Chaos are:
- Equilibrium is a precursor to death. When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it. This places it at maximum risk.
- In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos. This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.
- When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.
- Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path. Unforeseen consequences are inevitable. The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.
Jason briefly shares his church’s history and experiences of equilibrium and disequilibrium.
Systems move in accordance with different kinds of “attractors.” The three primary attractors are 1) Point Attractors, 2) Cycle Attractors, and 3) Strange Attractors.
Strange attractors are those that lure systems toward the edge of chaos.
Jason sees his pastoral role when he started at his church as one of creating disequilibrium. From that disequilibrium, fresh new solutions can emerge.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jason Coker
- Oceanside Sanctuary
Books mentioned:
- Surfing the Edge of Chaos: The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, et.al.
Spiritual Life and Leadership Facebook Group

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."
Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

72. The Edge of Chaos, Part 1: Why Your Church Needs Disequilibrium May 26, 2020

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“The edge of chaos is a condition, not a location. It is a permeable, intermediate state through which order and disorder flow, not a finite line of demarcation. Moving to the edge of chaos creates upheaval but not dissolution. That’s why the edge of chaos is so important. The edge is not the abyss. It’s the sweet spot for productive change.”

That’s a quote from Surfing the Edge of Chaos, which looks at organizations as “complex adaptive systems.” These systems—in order to remain healthy and vibrant—require periods of “disequilibrium.” Seasons when death seems to be knocking on the front door. And it is these seasons of disequilibrium and death that make the system stronger in the long run.
In this episode, Jason Coker and I unpack the concepts of equilibrium and disequilibrium, and begin to look at his particular church and the role disequilibrium—and near death—played in his church's eventual revitalization.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jason Coker is the pastor of Oceanside Sanctuary in Oceanside, California, and a lecturer at California State University, San Marcos.
Human beings tend to prefer to live life in a state of equilibrium, when everything is safe and predictable.
We need disequilibrium to grow and thrive.
These concepts come from Surfing the Edge of Chaos: The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, Mark Milleman, and Linda Gioja.
We prefer equilibrium over disequilibrium. But we need disequilibrium in order to grow and thrive.
Surfing the Edge of Chaos uses the concept of “complex adaptive systems” as a way of thinking about how to navigate organizational challenges.
In a state of equilibrium, the system is at its weakest.
A system actually needs disequilibrium in order to thrive and grow and to become stronger and healthier.
“Prolonged equilibrium dulls an organism’s senses and saps its ability to arouse itself appropriately in the face of danger.”
Four principles (from Surfing the Edge of Chaos):
- Equilibrium is a precursor to death. When a living system is in a state of equilibrium, it is less responsive to changes occurring around it. This places it at maximum risk.
- In the face of threat, or when galvanized by a compelling opportunity, living things move toward the edge of chaos. This condition evokes higher levels of mutation and experimentation, and fresh new solutions are more likely to be found.
- When this excitation takes place, the components of living systems self-organize and new forms and repertoires emerge from the turmoil.
- Living systems cannot be directed along a linear path. Unforeseen consequences are inevitable. The challenge is to disturb them in a manner that approximates the desired outcome.
Jason suggests that death is actually necessary.
Markus and Jason discuss how Jason’s church experienced a long period of equilibrium before entering a period of severe disequilibrium in the 1970s, lasting all the way into the 2010s.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jason Coker
- Oceanside Sanctuary
Books mentioned:
- Surfing the Edge of Chaos: The Laws of Nature and the New Laws of Business, by Richard T. Pascale, et

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

71. How Did Communist Russia Impact American Christianity? with Chris Staron, host of Truce podcast May 12, 2020

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The United States has had a long and complicated relationship with God. And what’s really fascinating is the fact that Communist Russia played a significant role in the way many Americans think about that relationship with God today. A lot of folks think about the United States as a Christian nation—both in the United States and around the world.

But is it? And what does it mean to be a Christian nation? And what does the Soviet Union have to do with any of this? And…. As spiritual leaders, what’s a proper relationship between one’s nation—any nation—and the people of God?
Chris Staron, host of the Truce podcast, and I discuss these questions in this episode.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Chris Staron is host of the Truce podcast, as well as the director of Bringing Up Bobby and Between the Walls, and the author of Cradle Robber.
The Truce podcast is spending a year exploring how the rise of Communist Russia impacted the Christian church in America.
Chris summarizes the connection between Communist Russia and American Christianity.
When Karl Marx said, “Religion is the opiate of the masses,” he meant something different than what we normally assume.
During the 1950’s, the United States made an intentional effort to connect Christianity with American patriotism.
The core eight founding fathers of the U.S. were something between deists and Christian. They believed God was involved in the world, but they did not believe that Jesus was God.
The United States is technically an empire.
- Since it began, it expanded into areas that didn’t belong to it.
- Today, the U.S. still holds territories that are taxed without representation.
Christianity is losing its prophetic distance from power, which makes it difficult for Christianity to speak truth to power.
The Trump administration had gone to great lengths to associate Christianity with the administration.
Chris Staron raises the question as to whether or not Christianity supports revolution.
You can connect with Chris Staron at www.trucepodcast.com. You can also find Chris Staron on Twitter at @trucepodcast and on Instagram at @trucepodcast.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Christ Staron:
- Podcast - The Truce Podcast
- Twitter: @trucepodcast
- Instagram: @trucepodcast
- Cradle Robber, by Chris Staron

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."
Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
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70. The Subversiveness of Sabbath, with A.J. Swoboda, author of Subversive Sabbath Apr 28, 2020

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AJ Swoboda asks an important question: If, as a pastor, you intentionally broke one of the Ten Commandments what would happen? Well, you’d probably either lose your job or your position. Or you’d be reprimanded or given a warning. Or, at the very least—maybe for using the Lord’s name in vain—you’d get a few dirty looks.

But there is one commandment that, if you were to regularly disobey it, you would probably get a raise.

Which commandment? The commandment to keep the Sabbath.
Why is that? That’s what AJ Swoboda and I discuss in this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

AJ Swoboda is Assistant Professor of Bible and Theology at Northwest Christian University and author of Subversive Sabbath.
The pace at which the Western world is living is not only not sustainable, it’s a suicide mission.
The Sabbath undermines the empire of anxiety and hurry.
The Sabbath is not a practice to improve your life. It will utterly disrupt everything you want.
The kind of life we have grown accustomed to—full of busyness and hurry—is not truly life.
The Sabbath originates in the Garden of Eden—before the Law.
The importance of the Sabbath is seen in the story of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt. God wanted to restore to the Hebrews the Edenic rest.
The Sabbath is a foretaste of what we will experience forever in Heaven.
The ideal of the practice of Sabbath is a 24-hour period of rest.
The early Christians transitioned the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, which they called the Lord’s Day.
AJ preached on the Sabbath for three weeks and people left his church. He realized that if he broke nine of the Ten Commandments he would lose his job, but if he broke the Sabbath he would get a raise.
God said, “Remember the Sabbath Day.” It’s as though God knew this was the one commandment we would be most likely to forget.
People who keep the Sabbath are wildly healthier people.
When you enter into the Sabbath, the Sabbath begins to enter into you.
Sabbath is not merely a day. It’s a state of being.
AJ shares the way he is currently struggling with practicing the Sabbath. He is finding that God is in the struggle.
You can find AJ Swoboda on Twitter at @mrajswoboda.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

AJ Swoboda
- Twitter: @mrajswoboda
Books mentioned:
- Subversive Sabbath, by AJ Swoboda
- The Sabbath, by Abraham Heschel
- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Pete Scazzero

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
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Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

69. Connecting Christ to Culture, with Michael Cooper, author of Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement Apr 14, 2020

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Michael Cooper discusses his book Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement, in which he explores the important role of the city of Ephesus in the early Roman Empire and the early church, with a special emphasis on the ways the apostles Paul, John, and Peter all worked to connect the story of Jesus to the Ephesian people in language that made sense to them.

This is a timely message for us today as churches are struggling to learn how we are called to connect Christ to our culture.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Michael Cooper is the author of Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement and trains church leaders and pastors around the world.
Michael shares the story of his faith journey and what led him to write Ephesiology.
Nearly half of the New Testament has a connection to the city of Ephesus. Michael sensed there must be something there to discover.
Ephesus was a critical city in the Roman Empire. It was a crossroad, not only of commerce, but also of philosophy.
Heraclitus of Ephesus was a philosopher who wrote On Nature, which was more popular than anything written about Socrates or by Plato or Aristotle.
The temple of Artemis in Ephesus had great influence in the city of Ephesus and the in all of Asia Minor.
Paul, John, and Peter were missiological theologians. Their heart was in engaging the culture effectively.
The Gospel of John is connected to the city of Ephesus. John arrived in Ephesus in around 67 A.D.
The stories of Jesus in the Gospel of John parallel the culture of Ephesus. John’s heart was to connect the stories of Jesus with the stories of the Ephesians.
When John says, “In the beginning was the logos,” he is using familiar Ephesian language first used by Heraclitus.
Like John, Paul, and Peter, we need to be able to connect theological themes to cultures in which we serve.
Michael describes how the Western church, in its missionary work, has exported a Western sixteenth-century form of Christianity to other cultures, rather than connecting the stories of Jesus to the stories and forms of those cultures.
The early church leadership had a flat organizational structure.
The focus on a pastor-centric church did not emerge until later in the church’s development.
You can find out more about Michael Cooper and his book at www.ephesiology.com. You can also e-mail Michael at michael@ephesiology.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Michael Cooper:
- E-mail: michael@ephesiology.com
- Website: https://ephesiology.com/
Books mentioned:
- Ephesiology: A Study of the Ephesian Movement, by Michael Cooper
- On Nature, by Heraclitus
- Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God's Mission, by Markus Watson

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podca

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68. Public Policy, Stewardship, and the Kingdom of God, with Breon Wells, President of the Daniel Initiative Mar 31, 2020

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What in the world does the Kingdom of God have to do with public policy? What does the Kingdom of God have to do with shaping governments and institutions? And how does stewardship fit into all that?

That’s what I’m be talking about in this episode with Breon Wells of the Daniel Initiative, a government relations firm that helps underrepresented and underserved populations promote positive change.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Breon Wells is the President and Founder of The Daniel Initiative and author of The K-Gene: Principles for Attaining Your Destiny.
Breon Wells worked in Washington, D.C., for eight years as a Congressional aide.
The Daniel Initiative to help people connect with the mandate they have outside the four walls of the church.
Breon makes the case for eliminating the divide between secular and sacred.
Daniel in the Old Testament lived without a sacred/secular divide.
We too often elevate the “spiritual stuff” we do at church without valuing what people do in the rest of their lives.
Breon Wells sees his work as prophetic. The prophet’s job is not to manipulate or control the people, but simply to speak the truth of God.
When Breon talks about “Kingdom” he is in part talking about stewardship. As sons and daughters of God, the King, we have a calling to be good stewards of all that has been entrusted to us.
The one quality we need to do God’s Kingdom work is surrender. Total surrender.
You can find Breon Wells on Twitter at @RealDaniel24 and on Facebook by searching for Breon Wells. And he is on Instagram at @imbreonwells.
To find out more about The Daniel Initiative, visit www.thedanielinitiative.org.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Breon Wells
- Twitter: @RealDaniel24
- Facebook: Breon Wells
- Instagram: @imbreonwells
The Daniel Initiative
- Website: https://www.thedanielinitiative.org/
Books Mentioned
- The K-Gene: Principles for Attaining Your Destiny, by Breon Wells
Patreon
- https://www.patreon.com/markuswatson

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Click here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632
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In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."
Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receiv

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67. How the Church Lost its Missionionary Identity Mar 17, 2020

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Christendom was that period of history in which Western culture considered itself to be formally and officially Christian. It was an era in which Christianity had a lot of cultural power--a far cry from the Pre-Christendom time of the Roman Empire.
This episode will give you a lot of insight into how Christianity moved from being a marginalized and persecuted religion during its first 300 years, to being the most powerful cultural force in Western society for 1500 years. And we’ll unpack how Christianity lost its missionary identity as it transitions to a Christendom culture.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Cody and Markus discuss how the Coronavirus threat has revealed churches’ dependency on having to meet in person. But the need to cancel services provides an opportunity for churches to discover what it means to be the church without the weekly gathering.
Markus reviews the characteristics of Pre-Christendom, which he and Cody discussed in episode 66, “The Improbable Growth of the Early Church.”
Christendom is the period of history during which Western culture considered itself officially Christian. It was at this time that the church lost its missionary identity.
In a Christendom society everyone is considered to be a Christian.
The era of Christendom began with the conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine to Christianity. This thrust the church into a position of power and authority.
Constantine was neither baptized nor catechized until shortly before his death. Because of this, Constantine offered the world a new kind of Christianity, one that required neither conversion nor commitment. This paced the way to the church losing its missionary identity.
Christendom affected Christianity in three ways:
- The church lost its missionary identity.
- The church emphasized a new distinction.
- The church invented a new reason to exist.
Christianity is not at the center of society the way it used to be. We are moving out of Christendom and into an era we might call Post-Christendom.
Post-Christendom gives the church the opportunity to rethink the reason for its existence.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Missional Church, edited by Darrel Guder
- Another City, by Barry A. Harvey
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson

Instruction to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."
Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
Click submit.

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for th

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

66. The Improbable Growth of the Early Church Mar 03, 2020

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In this episode, we consider the growth of the early church in the pre-Christendom era, a time when Christianity had very little cultural influence. Much like the church in today's world! And yet, the early church grew. What was their secret? And is there anything we can learn and perhaps implement in our world today?
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Christendom is defined as the “centuries in which Western civilization considered itself formally and officially Christian.”
During the first 300 years after Jesus, the church had very little power at all in the culture, which at that time was dominated by the Roman Empire.
And yet, somehow, in the fourth century, due to the growth of the early church, Christianity ended up at the very center of power in Western society.
Four Characteristics of the Pre-Christendom Church:
- The church had no political or social or cultural power.
- The church grew by leaps and bounds anyway.
- The church had a missionary identity.
- The church focused on developing a habitus in the followers of Jesus.
The growth of the early church changed the trajectory of Western civilization.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned:
- Missional Church, edited by Darrell Guder
- Canoeing the Mountains, by Tod Bolsinger
- The Change of Conversion and the Origin of Christendom, by Alan Kreider
- The Patient Ferment of the Early Church, by Alan Kreider
- The Parables of the Kingdom, by Robert Ferrar Capone
Free Resource:
- Six Practices of a Flourishing Church, by Markus Watson
Pick up my new book:
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson

To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632
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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

65. Why Don't People Go to Church Anymore? Feb 18, 2020

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Why don't people go to church anymore? There was a time when you could start a church and it would just grow. Especially if it was a new community that people were moving into. Not anymore. People generally just don't go to church anymore.

Why not? What changed? And what--if anything--can we do about it?

In this episode, I discuss the reality of our situation and offer a thought about the kind of posture we need in order to be the church that the world needs us to be.
THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Cody Vermillion founded a “churchish” non-profit called Uncommon Good for people who might never attend a typical church, addressing why people don't go to church anymore.
According to Gallup:
- In 1948, 76% of U.S. adults said they were members of a church, synagogue, or mosque.
- In 1998, that was down to 70%.
- In 2018, that was down to 50%.
In 2015, Pew research asked people if religion was “very important in their lives.” Here’s how they responded by age group:
- Silent Generation (born 1928-1945) 67%
- Baby Boomers (born 1946-1964) 59%
- Generation X (born 1965-1980) 53%
- Older Millennials (born 1981-1989) 44%
- Younger Millennials (born 1990-1996) 38%
Churches are declining not only because people don't go to church in great numbers, but also because people attend church less frequently.
Church attendance is not a social convention the way it was in the past. That's part of the reason why people don't go to church these days.
Pew research, in 2019, found that:
- 69% believe religious leaders behave unethically some or all of the time
- Surpassed only by leaders of technology companies (77%) and members of Congress (81%)
People don’t think leaders of institutions face serious consequences for their unethical behavior
- 71% believe members of Congress face consequences little of the time or not at all
- 58% believe leaders of tech companies face consequences little of the time or not at all
- 53% believe religious leader face consequences little of the time or not at all
The church needs to become “indifferent” to all the things that are irrelevant to the mission of God (including the fact that people don't got church much anymore).

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Uncommon Good:
- Website: https://uncommongoodsd.com/
Book mentioned:
- Sacred Rhythms: Arranging Our Lives for Spiritual Transformation, by Ruth Haley Barton
Statistics:

To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

64. Getting the Bible from the Head to the Heart, with Ron Ovitt Feb 04, 2020

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In this episode, Ron Ovitt shares about something called Integrated Meditation. Integrated Meditation is a process designed to help us get Scripture beyond the head and to the heart. Through a process that fosters deep emotional healing and profound spiritual formation, Integrated Meditation helps us get scripture into our heart and our gut and our spirit.
THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ron Ovitt is the President of Empower Ministry and the creator of Emotional Relearning, which you can learn about in Episode 32, “Emotional Resilience and Spiritual Leadership, with Ron Ovitt.”
Ron developed Integrated Meditation to help people in the process of Emotional Relearning.
Integrated Meditation is a way of experiencing the Bible in such a way that it touches not only the mind but also reaches to the heart.
Integrated Meditation involves six steps:
1. Reading – Read the text in two translations.
2. Comprehension – What are the key points of the passage?
3. Introspection – Looking inward. What do I sense as I read this passage? How does my body respond? What emotions am I feeling? What questions does this passage raise? What am I believing about myself? What am I believing about God?
4. Contemplation – Create space for the divine to enter. Shift from the brain to the heart by remembering a time when someone loved me.
5. Reflection – What am I going to believe as a result of reading this? What am I going to do now? What feelings will I embrace as a result of this? Who do I feel I should share this with?
6. Visualization – Visualize yourself receiving the scripture from God. Visualize knowing what I need to think, feel, and do—and visualize myself doing it.
Ron suggests that pastors might use these six steps as a way for congregations to dig deeper into the sermon text after the service, helping get the sermon from the head to the heart.
You can get a resource with ten Integrated Meditations by going to www.empowerministry.org/meditation.
You can e-mail Ron at ron@empowerministry.org.
You can listen to Ron’s podcast, Mr. Change Agent, and see his videos on his Mr. Change Agent YouTube channel.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Ron Ovitt:
- Free Resource: https://www.empowerministry.org/meditation/
- Website: https://www.empowerministry.org/
- E-mail: ron@empowerministry.org
- Ron’s Podcast: Mr. Change Agent
- Ron’s YouTube Channel: Mr. Change Agent YouTube channel

To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purch

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

63. Liturgy of Commute, with Shannon Vandewarker, author of Working in the Presence of God Jan 21, 2020

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Too often, we separate our work in sacred work and secular work. Because of this, we forget that God is present even in our most mundane, ordinary, "unspiritual" kinds of work. Shannon Vandewarker, author of Working in the Presence of God, helps us see that in the midst of our seemingly ordinary places of work, we can draw close to God.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Shannon Vandewarker is the author of Working in the Presence of God: Spiritual Practices for Everyday Work.
Shannon shares the story of what led her to write the book.
The message of Working in the Presence of God is that our place of work can be a place where we encounter God in deep and intentional ways.
The “liturgy of commute” is a systematic way of focusing on God as one drives, rides, or walks to work and from work.
Shannon Vandewarker shares the way she practices the liturgy of commute. Markus also shares the way he practices liturgy of commute.
“Lamenting work” can be a profound experience for those who struggle in the work that they do. Sometimes we need to lament in the midst of our work.
Lamenting consists of pouring our hearts out to God and then listening to what God says in response.
“Lamenting” is a foreign concept for many people. Shannon offers some ideas for how to lament.
The practices explored in Working in the Presence of God can be just as helpful for pastors and ministry leaders as for people working in “secular” jobs.
It can also be helpful for pastors to invite church members to join them in doing some of these practices.
For Shannon Vandewarker, engaging in these practices has helped her become more aware of God’s presence in every area of her life.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Shannon Vandewarker:
- Website: http://shannonvandewarker.com/
- Instagram: @shannonvande
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shannon.vandewarker
- Book: Working In the Presence of God, by Shannon Vandewarker and Denise Daniels
To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632
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- https://www.patreon.com/markuswatson

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

62. Different People Need Different Kinds of Leaders, with Ted Gillgrist Jan 07, 2020

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Ted Gillgrist is a business leader and a committed follower of Jesus. He's also one of my oldest friends! In this episode, Ted shares some of the wisdom he’s learned about leadership over the past twenty-five years.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Ted Gillgrist is Vice President of Southern Diversified Distributors and a proud graduate of Slippery Rock University! (Also, Markus’ alma mater…)
Ted and Markus were discipleship partners in the college ministry in which they were involved.
Ted’s first significant leadership role was as a health care administrator.
Ted shares about the challenges of stepping into leadership in a health care facility that was on the verge of being shut down. He also tells the story of how he and his team restored the facility to a high level of competence and quality.
In telling his story, Ted Gillgrist shares these three leadership lessons:
- Always give a person the tools to do a job before you determine they can’t.
- Various teams in an organization need to have a common “enemy” and have goals that overlap.
- Different people need different kinds of leaders.
Ted feels like he has in some ways become a pastor to his employees.
You can find Ted Gillgrist's company at www.twentyandoak.com

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books Mentioned:
- By Ken Blanchard:
To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

61. A Chorus of Podcasters! (Bonus Christmas Episode) Dec 17, 2019

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This bonus Christmas episodes contains five great mini-episodes from five great podcasts (one of which is this one)!
TRUCE

Chris Staron draws a connection between the musical piece, Bolero, and the hope that the people of Israel felt as they longed for the Messiah.

Find out more about the Truce podcast here:

https://trucepodcast.com/

THE ROAD HOME TO YOU

Brandy Goebell offers twelve really helpful strategies for self-care during the Christmas season.

Find out more about The Road Home to You here:

http://theroadhometoyou.libsyn.com/

BIBLICAL CHILI

A fun, dramatized version of the shepherds’ and the magi’s encounter with Jesus, with a neat connection to Jesus’ parable of the Lost Sheep.

Find out more about Biblical Chili here:

https://biblicalchili.podbean.com/

RAISING KIDS ON YOUR KNEES

Tina Smith shares about how God takes all the broken pieces of our lives and puts them back together again.

Find out more about Raising Kids on Your Knees here:

https://raisingkidsonyourknees.org/

SPIRITUAL LIFE AND LEADERSHIP

Markus Watson shares how the women in Jesus’ genealogy reveal the deep love of God and the wide mercy of God.

Find out more about Spiritual Life and Leadership, well, here:

https://www.markuswatson.com/

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

60. Shalom for the City, with Amy Sherman, author of Kingdom Calling Nov 25, 2019

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When I read Amy Sherman's book, Kingdom Calling, it felt like the lights turned on for me. As I read, it became more and more clear that God wants to restore healing and wholeness in our world, not merely through spiritual vocations like pastors and missionaries, but through every vocation. Every kind of work is a way by which we love our neighbors and bring shalom into the world.
In this episode, Amy Sherman unpacks the first part of Proverbs 11:10, which says, "When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices." Why would a city rejoice at the prosperity of the righteous? Wouldn't they be envious? And yet... There's something about the prospering of the righteous, both in the ancient world and the present day, that causes people and cities to rejoice!
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Amy Sherman is Senior Fellow and Director of the Center on Faith in Communities at the Sagamore Institute. Amy is also the author of Kingdom Calling: Vocational Stewardship for the Common Good.
The key verse on which Kingdom Calling is Proverbs 11:10a, which reads, “When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices.”
The “righteous” are, in Hebrew, the tsaddiqim. These are people who are so in love with God and so committed to his purposes in the world that they understand everything they have been given as blessings to be poured out for the sake of others and in worship of this God.
The tsaddiqim understand that they have been blessed to be a blessing.
This is different from the prosperity gospel, which teaches that our prosperity is for our own enjoyment, rather than for the common good.
We can think of “righteousness” as “set-rightness.” God longs to set all things right. And this reminds us of that wonderful Hebrew word shalom.
God wants flourishing not only for our souls, but also for our bodies.
Peace with God is part of a fourfold shalom. You can find out more about the four-fold nature of shalom in episode 3 of Spiritual Life and Leadership, The Fourfold Nature of Shalom.
Vocational stewardship refers to “the intentional and strategic deployment of all of the dimensions of our vocational power to advance foretastes of the kingdom of God.”
Life in the new heaven and new earth will be marked by such things as intimacy with God, perfect justice, peace, security, safety, health, beauty, and joy. We are called to steward our vocations in ways that lead to all these things for our neighbors today.
Amy Sherman shares two present-day examples of people who are living as the tsaddiqim today. The first is a contractor who builds homes and neighborhoods designed to foster shalom. The second is an interior designer who focuses on designing spaces that are for everyone, especially in regard to accessibility and mobility.
You can find out more about Amy Sherman and her work at www.vocationalstewardship.org.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Amy Sherman:
- Website: http://www.vocationalstewardship.org/
Books mentioned:
- Kingdom Calling: Vocational Stewardship for the Common Good, by A

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

59. How I Survived Suicide, with Steve Austin, author of Catching Your Breath Nov 18, 2019

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While we cover some delicate ground in this episode, Steve Austin’s story of surviving suicide is one of hope. He doesn’t avoid the reality of what led him to attempt to take his life by suicide, but he also doesn’t hide the healing he has experienced in the years that followed. Steve Austin offers a story of hope for all who are looking for healing and wholeness in their lives. And he offers a picture of the kind of healing that I believe God wants for all creation to experience.
THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Steve Austin is a suicide survivor, as well as the author of Catching Your Breath and host of the Catching Your Breath podcast.
Steve grew up in a very fundamentalist Christian culture.
Steve is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. His family thought he wouldn’t remember—which he didn’t until he was in high school.
From the age of 17-29, Steve’s anxiety and depression got worse and worse.
Steve hid his medication because he didn’t want his church thinking the pastor is taking “crazy pills.”
At the age of 29, Steve attempted to take his life by suicide. He believed the lie that he was a burden to his wife, his child, his friends and family—and thought it would be a gift to remove himself from their lives.
Mental illness and traumatic experiences exacerbate one another.
After his suicide experience, Steve felt anger, grief, and fear of people knowing the truth.
Steve eventually shared his full story with a trusted friend.
Steve’s wife committed to staying with him. She said, “I don’t think the worst day of your life gets to define the rest of your life unless you let it.”
Steve has become much more open to his own wounds and more open to the wounds of others.
Steve Austin says he is now certain that God loves him—and that’s about all he is certain of.
Markus and Steve discuss the reality that the way to peace is through suffering.
The reason Steve didn’t succumb to cynicism or deeper suffering is because he was loved. He also allowed himself to feel all the feelings—fear, anger, doubt, and so forth.
Steve had to let go of the fear of what everyone else is going to think.
Steve discusses how leaders can help people struggling with mental illness.
You can find out more about Steve Austin at www.catchingyourbreath.com and click on “Start Here.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Steve Austin:
- Website: www.catchingyourbreath.com
- Twitter: @iamsteveaustin
Books mentioned:
- Catching Your Breath by Steve Austin
- From Pastor to a Psych Ward by Steve Austin

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

58. Communion with Reality, with Esther Lightcap Meek, author of A Little Manual for Knowing Nov 11, 2019

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In this episode, Esther Lightcap Meek and I talk about love as the starting point for truly knowing reality, what it means to experience communion with the real—and why this matters for the on-the-ground work that you and I are doing as leaders of God’s people.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE

Esther Lightcap Meek is Professor of Philosophy at Geneva College and author of A Little Manual for Knowing.
In chapter one of A Little Manual for Knowing, Esther states that “reality is a gift, and love is at the core of all things. It is not impersonal; rather, it is person-like.”
The pilgrimage of knowing begins with love, not with information.
Active listening invites the real. Not mere passive collecting of information, but actively inviting reality to self-disclose.
Because we’ve reduced knowledge in the modern West to little bits of information, we can’t see what is really there.
We need to go into our communities in humility looking for what God is already at work doing there.
Creation is in its essence the love of God. It is the expression of God’s love.
When we truly begin to know reality, we enter into communion with that which is known.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Esther Lightcap Meek
- Website: http://www.longingtoknow.com/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Esther-Lightcap-Meek-110487169038640/
Books mentioned
- A Little Manual for Knowing by Esther Lightcap Meek
To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I'll receive a small commission--which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast! :-)

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

57: Comedy, Wrestling, and the Mission of God, with Dave Ebert Nov 04, 2019

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In this episode, we speak with Dave Ebert, Director and Founder of Well-Versed Comedy, and also the host of the Gifts for Glory podcast.
There's something life-giving about comedy, isn't there? Why is that? Why, after we have a good belly laugh, do we feel like the world is better than it was before? Dave Ebert discusses what makes comedy so life-giving when it comes to restoring shalom in the world.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE

Dave Ebert is the Director and Founder of Well-Versed Comedy.
Dave found his way into comedy from a season of deep depression.
Laughter has a tangible healing quality.
Laughter can unite people. It can break down walls.
Dave’s comedy team will often go onstage before a keynote speaker in order to get the audience laughing. But the purpose is not mere entertainment; it’s to bring everyone together and break down walls.
In Episode 55: Healing Our Polarized World, Markus spoke with Dan White, Jr. about breaking down walls in our polarized world.
Markus tells a story about seeing Brian Regan and the shared experience it created for him and another person.
Dave Ebert says that, of the qualities of God that get expressed in comedy, love and joy are two of the first.
“Laughter is the tangible evidence of hope.” –Michael Junior
Markus shares about how the comedy show, Impractical Jokers, kept hope alive in him during a dark season of his life.
Dan has been able to use his comedy to bring hope and healing to women who have been rescued from sex trafficking.
There is a restoration of shalom when people laugh.
Dan shares his thoughts on humor in the Bible.
Dan started an annual comedy event called PureFest. Next year it will be on the last weekend in September.
You can find out more about Dave Ebert and his comedy at Gifts4Glory.com.
If you are struggling with depression or suicidal thoughts, you are welcome to e-mail Dave Ebert anytime at dave@gifts4glory.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Dave Ebert
- Well-Versed Comedy website: www.gifts4glory.com
- PureFest website: https://purefest.wixsite.com/purefest
Books mentioned
- Love Over Fear by Dan White, Jr.
- Choose Joyby Kay Warren
To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I'll receive a small commission--which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast! :-)

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

56. The Fundamentals of God's Mission, with Jim Mullins, author of The Symphony of Mission Oct 28, 2019

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Jim Mullins recently wrote The Symphony of Mission: Playing Your Part in God’s Work in the World, which focuses on the ways we have been called to participate in God's mission of restoring healing and wholeness in the world. In today’s episode, Jim and I talk about the basic “notes” of God’s mission (going with the "symphony of mission" metaphor), which come from chapter 2 of Jim's book. The question Jim answers is, what basic elements are fundamental to our participating in God’s mission of restoration in the world?

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE

Jim Mullins is Pastor of Theological and Vocational Formation at Redemption Tempe and the Director of the Faith, Work, and Rest Initiative for the Surge Network.
Jim Mullins is also the author of The Symphony of Mission: Playing Your Part in God’s Work in the World.
The Symphony of Mission as a metaphor is meant to capture the idea that we all have a part to play in the mission of God.
Christ is the composer and conductor of this great song of the gospel that is being played to the nations. And we, as his people, are called to find our instrument, our place in that symphony.
The basic “notes” (i.e., the fundamental elements) of God’s mission are:
- With – Mission must include incarnational presence
- From – Mission must be empowered by the Spirit
- And – Mission must be comprehensive in scope
- Us – Mission must be communal
- Be – Mission must include a distinct way of life
- Why – Mission must be motivated by love
Living into God’s mission in these fundamental ways really must begin with the last one—love.
A Symphony of Mission is available wherever books are sold. Jim recommends purchasing it at www.heartsandminds.com.
Also, check out Jim’s podcast, Faith, Work, and Rest.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

The Symphony of Mission by Jim Mullins and Michael Goheen
- On Amazon
- On HeartsandMindsBooks.com
Faith, Work, and Rest podcast
- https://soundcloud.com/faithworkrest
To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

---
Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I'll receive a small commission--which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast! :-)

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

55. Healing Our Polarized World, with Dan White, Jr., author of Love Over Fear Oct 21, 2019

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We live in a highly polarized culture. We are polarized in all kinds of ways—politically, racially, even theologically. And it keeps getting worse. Why? Because we don’t talk to each other. All we see on the other side are monsters. Even though, as today’s guest Dan White Jr. says, those "monsters" are image-bearers of God. In this episode, I speak with Dan White, Jr., about what causes polarization and how we can begin to heal from it.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE

Dan White, Jr., is a Movement Developer for V3 Movement, church-planting and author of Love Over Fear: Facing Monsters, Befriending Enemies, and Healing Our Polarized World.
Dan recently read Living Into Community by Christine Pohl. This book riffs off of Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s Life Together.
Dan shares what led him to write Love Over Fear.
The book is a deep dive into how fear can control us.
Dan describes how polarization involves the process of taking people who have something in common and turning them toward hate for one another.
In a polarized culture, moving toward one another with love can feel like complicity.
Dan explains some of the neurology involved in polarization.
Some of the disciples came from vastly different backgrounds. Yet, Jesus was able to bring them together.
Jesus brings people together by being indiscriminate in his table fellowship.
When we have compassion toward someone, we are able to see where they are suffering in their life.
We can start connecting with people who are different by simply being inquisitive, by asking them questions.
Dan tells the story of connecting with someone who believed strongly in legalizing marijuana. Dan began by simply asking him inquisitive questions.
We have a tendency to make “monsters” out of people we disagree with.
Jesus didn’t see monsters. He saw image-bearers.
Find out more about Dan White, Jr., at www.loveoverfearproect.com. And follow Dan on Twitter and Facebook.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Dan White, Jr.:
- Website: https://www.loveoverfearproject.com/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/danwhitejr
Books mentioned:
- Love Over Fear by Dan White, Jr.
- Living Into Communityby Christine Pohl
- Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

---
Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I'll receive a small commission--which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast! :-)

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

54. An Evangelical in "Episcoland", with Aaron Klinefelter Sep 30, 2019

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In this episode, Aaron Klinefelter shares the story of how God called him out of that evangelical tradition into the Episcopal tradition. Aaron loves getting to belong to the Episcopal part of God’s family. But he’s noticed that there are some things he’s beginning to miss from his evangelical background.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Aaron Klinefelter is the Associate Rector at Trinity Church in Menlo Park, CA.
Out of Solitude by Henri Nouwen is one of the most formative books Aaron has read.
It was in college that Aaron was first introduced to the Episcopal church.
But Aaron did not yet find a way into the Episcopal church at that time.
After some time at Fuller Seminary, Aaron and his family moved to Cincinnati where he got involved in an emerging style church that had strong evangelical roots.
Aaron was eventually hired to do youth ministry in an Episcopal church in Cincinnati. A few years later, Aaron began the Episcopal ordination process.
When Aaron Klinefelter joined the Episcopal church, he felt like he had come home. But he also saw all the downsides of the denomination.
Since being in the Episcopal church, Aaron finds there are aspects of his evangelical background that he misses.
Aaron, still loves his Episcopalian home and is just now beginning to be able to express his feelings.
In 1985, Robert Webber wrote Evangelicals on the Canterbury Trail where he observed a trend in which evangelicals were moving toward Anglicanism.
Aaron Klinefelter’s evangelical background and Episcopalian present makes for fertile soil for experimentation.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Aaron Klinefelter:
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/aaronklinefelter
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aaronklinefelter/
Trinity Church:
- Website: http://www.trinitymenlopark.org/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/trinitymenlo/
Books mentioned:
- Out of Solitude by Henri Nouwen
- A Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren
- Evangelicals on the Canterbury

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

53. Growing Hearts, Not Attendance, with Mike McClenahan Sep 23, 2019

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What happened to Solana Beach Presbyterian Church? Oh, it's still a big church, but it's half the size it was twenty years ago. Some would say that Mike McClenahan, the Senior Pastor, failed in some way. He must have done something wrong and that's why this church has declined so much.

Maybe. Or maybe it's just a reflection of what's going on everywhere in our culture.

Mike McClenahan and his team have been wrestling with these challenges for almost two decades. And what they have found is that maybe they've been measuring the wrong thing. Maybe, rather than measuring weekly church attendance, what they needed to measure was what was going on in people's hearts.

In this episode, Mike McClenahan shares the story of his journey from trying to lead a successful church to recognizing that it’s more important to grow people’s hearts than it is to grow people’s church attendance.
THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mike McClenahan is the Senior Pastor at Solana Beach Presbyterian Church in Solana Beach, CA.
When Mike was nine years old, his three-year-old brother tragically died. Two years later, Mike’s dad left and his parents divorced when he was thirteen.
These events were significant moments of loss in Mike’s life that taught him about the importance of the church.
If you understand attendance as a measure of success, pastors experience loss and feelings of lack of success all the time.
Solana Beach Presbyterian Church engaged in the Reveal Study, which showed that people in the church were engaged in the things that the church did together, but they were not experiencing their own personal spirituality.
In the book Move, Greg Hawkins and Cally Parkinson identify four qualities of leaders whose churches were the most spiritually vital:
- Disarmingly humble
- Modeled a surrendered life
- Grow hearts, not attendance
- They had one passion: Intimacy with Jesus
Mike McClenahan had to vulnerably admit to his congregation that he was committing to deeper spiritual intimacy with God.
The most important thing for pastors to do—as they lead their churches into deeper intimacy with Jesus—is surrender.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books mentioned:
- Move by Greg L. Hawkins and Cally Parkinson
Solana Beach Presbyterian Church
- Website: https://solanabeach.church/
Reveal Study
- Website: https://revealforchurch.com/

To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

52. Leadership and Soul Care, with Elaine Hamilton, The Soul Care House Sep 15, 2019

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I’ve discovered that therapy—good therapy—is something that everyone needs. Especially if you’re in leadership. In this episode, I speak with Elaine Hamilton, founder of a therapy group in San Diego called the Soul Care House. Elaine helps to demystify therapy for us. What is it? Why is it important? Why do leaders, especially, need good therapy?

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Elaine Hamilton is founder of the Soul Care House and author of Church on the Couch.
Elaine Hamilton grew up in a German Mennonite community in Canada. They had a very rigid way of living their lives, but they also were very committed to doing good in the world.
Good therapy involves sitting with someone who is trained, but who is also on their own journey toward wholeness.
The therapist should be leading the process.
Bad therapy can include any of the following:
- Too passive
- Too directive
- States the obvious
- No boundaries
- When the therapist talks too much about themselves
Leaders often have a hard time being vulnerable enough to truly care for their own souls.
Spiritual leaders are constantly hearing people’s stories. Because of their position, leaders have the potential for wounding people in ways that others wouldn’t.
Leaders need to become aware of their own stories.
As leaders, it’s also helpful to be able to process current circumstances so that we can deal with them in a healthy and helpful way.
The spiritual life isn’t merely about intellectual content (e.g. theology, Bible verses). It’s also about how we live in the world and in relation to other people.
Psychology and therapy is a gift from God in that the tools of psychology help us to better understand ourselves.
The Soul Care House website is www.soulcarehouse.com. The Soul Care House is also on Instagram at @soulcarehouseandbarn.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Soul Care House
- Website: http://www.soulcarehouse.com/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/soulcarehouseandbarn/
- Soul Care House Podcast: https://soulcarehouse.com/pages/Podcast
Elaine Hamilton
- E-mail: elaine@soulcarehouse.com
Book mentioned
- Church on the Couch by Elaine Hamilton

To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

51. Healing Homelessness, with Michelle LeBeau, San Diego Rescue Mission Sep 09, 2019

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There is no easy solution to homelessness and extreme poverty. But some solutions are definitely better than others. In this episode, Michelle LeBeau, Director of Church Partnerships at the San Diego Rescue Mission, shares why deep inner life transformation is so important for helping people escape poverty.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Michelle LeBeau is the Director of Church Partnerships at the San Diego Rescue Mission.
Michelle LeBeau is the daughter of a Presbyterian pastor. She shares about her life as a “rebellious” pastor’s kid.
Michelle LeBeau shares about her journey to joining the San Diego Rescue Mission.
The San Diego Rescue Mission is a twelve-month holistic recovery and rehabilitation program.
There are four phases in the Rescue Mission’s recovery process:
- Wellness
- Education
- Employment
- Housing
The staff at San Diego Rescue Mission does “trauma-informed care,” which approaches behavior from a perspective that asks, “What happened to you?” rather than, “What’s wrong with you?”
The first step to getting healthy is to acknowledge you have a problem. This is true in the recovery process, as well as in the church and in life in general.
To be a “red-letter Christian” is to focus on the teachings of Jesus.
In regard to church partnerships, the Rescue Mission wants to start by asking, “How can we help the local church?”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

San Diego Rescue Mission
- Website: https://www.sdrescue.org/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/SD_Rescue
Michelle LeBeau
- E-mail: mlebeau@sdrescue.org

To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

—
Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

50. When God Became an Atheist, with Kutter Callaway, author of The Aesthetics of Atheism Sep 02, 2019

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Can an atheist participate with God in the healing of the world? If one who doesn’t believe in God volunteers at the local homeless shelter, should Christians dismiss that? If an atheist adopts an abused child into a home of love and acceptance, a place where that child can heal from the wounds of their past, are we to dismiss that?

Those are the kinds of questions that Kutter Callaway and I wrestle with in this episode. We talk about culture. We talk about the church. We talk about atheism. And we talk about “the previousness of the kingdom.”

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Kutter Callaway is the Associate Professor of Theology and Culture at Fuller Theological Seminary and the other of several books including The Aesthetics of Atheism.
A formative book that Kutter Callaway has read in recent years is Nobody Cries When We Die by Patrick Reyes.
Kutter’s colleague at Fuller, Bill Dyrness, defines culture as the stuff we create from God’s creation. It’s what we make of what’s here.
Religion “makes culture odd.” For instance, everyone eats bread and drinks wine. But we do that in an “odd” way.
Christianity is not separate from culture. We are called to engage culture because we are a part of the culture.
Lesslie Newbigin, in the The Open Secret, talks about “the previousness of the kindgdom.” God is already ahead of us in the culture and we are invited to joing God.
In The Aesthetics of Atheism, Kutter Callaway interestingly says that theism and atheism need each other.
Interesting thought: In that moment when Jesus on the cross feels abandoned by the Father, God becomes an atheist.
The Bible is full of prophetic voices from outside of God’s people.
Culture can be a destroyer of shalom. It can also be a restorer of shalom.
A healthy posture for pastors and ministry leaders to take toward culture is the posture of the injured man on the side of the road in the Good Samaritan story. It is a posture of humility and receptivity. Culture is like the untouchable Samaritan, but we need to let it help us.
The right question today might not be, “How do we help culture?” Rather, “How do we listen to, learn from, and humble ourselves in ways that allow us to be evangelized by the God who is at work out there?”
Learn more about Kutter Callaway at www.kuttercallaway.com and listen to his podcast, The Kutter Callaway Podcast.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Kutter Callaway
- Website: https://www.kuttercallaway.com
- Podcast: https://www.kuttercallaway.com/podcast
Books mentioned:
- The Aesthetics of Atheism by Kutter Callaway and Barry Taylor
- Nobody Cries When We Die by Patrick Reyes
- The Open Secret by Lesslie Newbigin
- God’s Wider Presence by Rob Johnston

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49. Flourishing, Suffering, and the Renewal of All Things, with Trevor Lee, host of Speak in the Suffering Aug 26, 2019

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In this episode, Trevor Lee discusses the importance of getting past the ministry model that just tries to get people through our discipleship programs. Instead, we need a model that values the uniqueness and inherent worth of each person. We also talked a lot about suffering. And we talked about the part suffering plays—ironically!—in the healing of the world.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Trevor Lee is a Development Representative with Made to Flourish and host of Speak in the Suffering podcast.
The most formative book Trevor has red is A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman.
Trevor Lee learned through Made to Flourish that the work of every person is sacred and is a participation in the mission of God.
The mission of Made to Flourish is to help pastors bridge the gap between Sunday and Monday for their congregations.
Made to Flourish is focused on equipping and forming pastors to walk their people to live for the good of the world in their places of work and home.
There is no inherent distinction between sacred and secular, between clergy and laity.
A great idea is to do interviews with people about their work in the worship gatherings. Trevor got mixed reviews when he did this in his church.
The mission of Trevor’s former church was worded like this: “Participating with God in the renewal of all things, and people in particular.”
The mission involves evangelism, but it points toward something even bigger—the renewal of everything.
Trevor Lee defines shalom as everything being as God intended.
God wants people to be made whole.
God wants the harmony of all things.
Suffering plays a unique part in the fulfillment of God’s mission. God uses suffering in profoundly redemptive ways that nothing can replace.
Trevor Lee shares about the challenges he faced in his last congregation.
Embracing our suffering can help us move through the pain and into healing on the other side.
Markus’ experience of suffering changed the way he thinks about what really matters in ministry.
Markus suggests that organizations like Made to Flourish and Flourish San Diego want to help pastors humanize their people.
The key quality a pastor needs to help people flourish is humility.
You can find out more about Made to Flourish at https://www.madetoflourish.org/

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Speak in the Suffering podcast with Trevor Lee
Books mentioned:
- A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman
- Managing Leadership Anxiety by Steve Cuss
Made to Flourish
- Website: https://www.madetoflourish.org/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/MadeToFlourish

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48. Integrity and Coherence in Leadership, with Lisa Slayton, CEO of Tamim Partners Aug 19, 2019

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In a broken and confusing world, it is realy hard to know the right thing to do. In this episode, Lisa Slayton doesn’t come with a bunch of clear-cut answers, but she does raise the right questions. And I think she points in the right direction. We need to become people of integrity, people who live lives of coherence. The Hebrew word for this is tamim. Lisa Slayton, the CEO of Tamim Partners, works with leaders and organizations to help them live from a place of integrity and coherence.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Lisa Slayton is the CEO of Tamim Partners.
Tamim is a Hebrew word often translated as “perfect” or “blameless.” A better translation might be “wholeheartedness,” “integrity,” or “coherence.”
Lisa Slayton suggests that shalom is an outward expression of wholeness and tamim refers to an inner wholeness that is required for true shalom.
Lisa Slayton had previously been the CEO of the Pittsburgh Leadership Foundation.
We live in a VUCA world: volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity.
In order to best coach an organization and/or its leader, it is critical to look at the systems.
Leaders can’t rely on “best practices” anymore.
Pastors today have not been given the tools or resources to lead in these times of volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity.
Lisa Slayton is committed to the Made to Flourish pastors’ network.
Tamim Partners has for key values: integrity, hospitality, learning, and relationships.
Integrity has to do with living integrated, coherent lives.
Leaders often push themselves to the point of dis-integration and in-coherence.
An axiom Lisa shares: “What we know gets in the way of what we need to learn.”
When a leaders says, “I just don’t know what to do,” that’s when the leader is ready to begin truly learning.
Much of what Lisa Slayton has shared is reminiscent of the previous two episodes of Spiritual Life and Leadership:
- Episode 46: Inviting the Real, with Esther Lightcap Meek, author of A Little Manual for Knowing
- Episode 47: Leadership, Anxiety, and Family Systems, with Steve Cuss, author of Managing Leadership Anxiety

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books mentioned:
- A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman
- Managing Leadership Anxiety by Steve Cuss
- A Little Manual for Knowingby Esther Lightcap Meek
Tamim Parnters:
- Website: http://www.tamimpartners.com

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ht

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47. Leadership, Anxiety, and Family Systems, with Steve Cuss, author of Managing Leadership Anxiety Aug 12, 2019

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In this episode Steve Cuss, the author of Managing Leadership Anxietydiscusses the way anxiety can affect, not only ourselves, but all those around us. We also talk about something called family systems theory, which has to do with recognizing and managing the anxiety in a system of relationships—be it a family, a church, a business, a baseball team, or school.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Steve Cuss is the lead pastor at Discovery Christian Church in Denver, Colorado, and the author of Managing Leadership Anxiety.
Acute anxiety is when you’re in actual danger. The danger is short-term, and then the danger passes.
Family systems focuses on chronic anxiety, which has to do with what happens next after you don’t get what you think you need.
Chronic anxiety is long-term. It is not an actual threat; it is a perceived threat.
Laura Turner had shared on Steve’s podcast, Managing Leadership Anxiety, the idea of anxiety as a pet. It’s helpful to think of anxiety, not as a monster, but as a pet on a leash.
Steve Cuss says it’s helpful to be mindful where your anxiety begins. Does it start in a spinning mind, a racing heart, or a tightening gut?
It can also be helpful to ask a friend, “What are two or three things that I think I need, but that I don’t actually need?”
Murray Bowen, founder of family systems theory, noticed that our problems aren’t just inside us, but between us.
The most powerful person in the room is the most anxious person in the room—unless the room is being led by a non-anxious leader.
Edwin Friedman wrote Generation to Generation, which focuses on congregational leadership. He also wrote A Failure of Nerve, which looks at family systems in culture and society.
“Differentiation” is considered by Roberta Gilbert to be the cornerstone concept of family systems theory. It refers to your ability to notice when you’re being infected by someone else’s anxiety and how to stop your anxiety from infecting someone else.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books mentioned:
- Managing Leadership Anxiety by Steve Cuss
- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero
- The Leader’s Journey by Jim Herrington and Trisha Taylor
- Family Systems and Congregational Life by Robert Creech
- Leadership on the Lineby Ronald Heifetz
- Generation to Generation by Edwin Friedman
- A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman
Steve Cuss:
- Website: https://stevecusswords.com/
- Twitter: @stevecusswords
- Instagram: @stevecusswords

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46. Inviting the Real, with Esther Lightcap Meek, author of A Little Manual for Knowing Aug 05, 2019

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In her book, A Little Manual for Knowing, Esther Lightcap Meek says that in order to truly know something, we must welcome “the yet-to-be-known with respect, humility, patience, and attentiveness.”

In this episode, Esther Lightcap Meek unpacks what she calls “covenant epistemology,” an approach to knowing that acknowledges the relationship between the knower and the known. It’s an approach that I believe can help us better life into the way God is calling us–actually calling us–to bring healing to the world.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Esther Lightcap Meek is the author of A Little Manual for Knowing and Professor of Philosophy at Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania.
Esther grew up “a good little Christian girl.” In eighth grade, she began to question her faith, including, “How do I know there is a world outside my mind?”
Esther read The God Who is There by Francis Schaeffer when she was in high school. It was then that her questions were not sin, they were philosophical.
The dominant paradigm for thinking about knowledge is that knowledge is information to be acquired.
Subsidiary Focal Integration is a way of describing the fact that knowing relies on a multitude of “subsidiary” knowings. In riding a bicycle, we focus on where we are going. Subsidiary to that focus is the knowledge of balance, pedaling, braking, steering, and so forth. When we know something we are integrating into our focus all the subsidiary patterns that make up that knowledge.
When we memorize scripture, it’s not so that we can merely have scripture memorized. It is so that we can indwell scripture subsidiarily.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Esther Lightcap Meek
- Website: http://www.longingtoknow.com/
Books mentioned:
- A Little Manual for Knowing by Esther Lightcap Meek
- Longing to Know by Esther Lightcap Meek
- Loving to Know by Esther Lightcap Meek
- The God Who is There by Francis Schaeffer
- Personal Knowledge by Michael Polanyi
- The Catholicity of Reason by D.C. Schindler
- No God, No Science: Theology, Cosmology, Biology by Michael Hanby
- The Gospel in a Pluralist Society by Lesslie Newbigin
- Proper Confidence: Faith, Doubt, and Certainty in Christian Discipleship by Lesslie Newbigin
- Western Culture in Gospel Context: Towards the Conversion of the West by David J. Kettle
Video mentioned:
- Wonder: The Final Word by D.C. Schindler

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45. Retirement and Vocation, with Jeff Haanen, author of An Uncommon Guide to Retirement Jul 29, 2019

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We are called to participate with God in the healing of the world through our very work–as teachers, as mechanics, as doctors, as attorneys, as salespeople. Our work brings the goodness of God into the world.

But what about when we retire? How can we participate with God in the healing of the world then? Is it possible to live a full life in retirement in which we understand our post-work life as more than just a big vacation?

Jeff Haanen addresses these questions in his book, An Uncommon Guide to Retirement. Jeff challenges us to rethink our understanding of retirement, recognizing that it’s not just an extended vacation, but a time of fruitful work and ministry as we live into our calling as retired people.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jeff Haanen is the Executive Director of the Denver Institute for Faith and Work and the author of An Uncommon Guide to Retirement.
Jeff Haanen came to faith as he read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. In recent years, the most formative book Jeff has read is Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis by Robert Putnam.
People need a why for their work to have meaning. Jeff Haanen wants to give people a why in their work. The why comes down to loving God and loving neighbor through one’s work.
“Vocation” comes from the Latin word for “voice,” which has to do with responding to God’s voice.
Jeff Haanen says we need to pause and question the culture around retirement, a culture that says if you save so much money you’ll be living “the life” when you retire. But life doesn’t always work that way.
Rather than moving into a big vacation at retirement, people ought to move into a time of sabbatical rest.
It’s important in retirement to not live merely for ourselves, but for God who calls us and for the well-being of our neighbors.
Pastors can help those retired by encouraging seasons of rest, renewal, and reengagement.
You can find out more about the book at www.uncommonretirement.com.
To learn more about the Denver Institute for Faith, go to www.denverinstitute.org, For short online courses on faith, work, vocation, and so forth, go to www.scatter.org.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

An Uncommon Guide to Retirement by Jeff Haanen: https://www.uncommonretirement.com/
Denver Institute for Faith and Work: https://denverinstitute.org/
Online courses by Jeff Haanen:
- Theology for Business
- Soul Care for Entrepreneurs
Other books mentioned:
- Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
- Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis by Robert Putnam

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44. Spiritual Formation and Lectio Divina, with Eric Nevins, host of Halfway There Jul 22, 2019

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If we want to keep growing in our faith we have to go deeper than merely reading a chapter of the Bible per day. That’s where lectio divina comes in. Lectio divina is a way of not merely getting information about God or about Jesus, but a way of truly experiencing Jesus. It’s a type of reading that involves silence and listening and receiving from Jesus his presence and his spirit.

In this episode, Eric Nevins, host of the Halfway There podcast, shares about the transformative effect lectio divina has had on his life.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Eric Nevins is host of the Halfway There podcast.
The book, The Critical Journey, names six stages of spiritual formation. Eric likes to simplify spiritual formation into four stages: The journey of meeting Jesus. The journey of learning Jesus. The journey of finding yourself in Jesus. The journey of loving like Jesus.
Lectio divina is process by which a person can read and meditate on scripture.
Too often we read scripture for content or to try to get a principle that we can apply too our lives. But that may not be the best way to read scripture for the purpose of transformation.
Lectio divina consists of essentially five parts: Read the passage. Reflect. Remain. Respond. Return to the passage.
To reflect and remain in a passage involves noticing or imagining what it might be like to be in the text.
To respond is to say to God, “Here’s what I’m feeling. Here’s what I’m interested in.”
In lectio divina, we surrender ourselves to the text and allow ourselves to be shaped by it.
Eric has written several 8-day experiences to help people practice lectio divina. You can find these at www.ericnevins.com. There are two of these 8-day experiences. One is on Mark 1:40-45 and the other is on John 2:1-12.
Eric can be found on Twitter at @EricDNevinsJr, as well as on Facebook. For anyone who is a Christian podcaster, Eric would love to invite you to be a part of the Christian Podcast Association Facebook page.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Eric Nevins
- Website: https://ericnevins.com/
- Halfway There podcast: https://ericnevins.com/series/halfwaythere/
- 8-Day Experiences: https://ericnevins.com/jesus-willing-8-day-experience/
Books mentioned:
- The Critical Journey by Janet O. Hagberg and Robert A. Guelich
- Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero

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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

43. Introduction to "Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God's Mission" Jul 15, 2019

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Understanding God's mission is critical.
The world today is nothing like the world as it was fifty years ago. Because of this, a lot of churches are really struggling with how to be the church in the 21st century. People used to go to church because, well, that’s just what you did. But not anymore. Today, even a lot of Christians don’t go to church—at least not the typical Sunday morning kind of church.

My new book, Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God’s Mission, is meant to help churches discern how to be the kind of church this world needs. And it has nothing to do with starting more and better programs. It’s about listening to God, listening to each other, and listening to our neighbors.

In this episode, I read the Introduction of my forthcoming book, Beyond Thingification: Helping Your Church Engage in God’s Mission.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

The words “self-preservation” and “self-propagation” capture the ethos of the church in North America today.
Too many churches focus on numbers to feel successful. How many people showed up? How much did people give this week? How many small groups do we have? And so forth.
Doing “church stuff” is not the same thing as accomplishing God’s mission.
We need to find a new way of being church--a way that helps us live out God's mission in the world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Book
- Beyond Thingification, by Markus Watson
Markus Watson
- Website: https://markuswatson.com/
- E-mail: markus@markuswatson.com
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/markuswatson
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/markuswats0n/

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42. Speaking Out Against Injustice, with Kathy Khang, author of Raise Your Voice Jul 08, 2019

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When I first read Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up, I was captivated almost immediately by a story the author, Kathy Khang, told about a situation in which a friend physically covered her mouth to keep her from asking a challenging question in a meeting. Kathy wrote, “I didn’t realize how powerful my voice could be until someone made sure I wouldn’t be heard.”

In this episode, Kathy Khang shares about her journey writing Raise Your Voice, and why it’s so important for us to not be afraid to speak out.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Kathy Khang is the author of Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up.
Kathy shares about her ten-year journey of writing this book.
The title, Raise Your Voice, initially felt too strong to Kathy.
This book is for anyone who has ever felt strongly about something, but in a moment of decision chose not to say anything about it.
Kathy reflects on a story she tells in her book about a time when a friend physically silenced her in a meeting by covering Kathy’s mouth with her hand.
Kathy named the elephant in the room, which was important for healing and restoration in that circumstance.
Markus reflects on his sense that he needs to be willing to speak up even when it’s uncomfortable.
For those in majority, it is easy to remain silent because silence serves to maintain the status quo.
Kathy Khang still gets comments from people who hear her preach that this was the first time they’ve ever heard an Asian American woman preach.
Kathy encourages those who want to speak up that it’s ok to fail. It is an everyday occurrence.
Kathy grew up believing that God was easily displeased. In the last five years, Kathy’s relationship with God has been much more joyful.
One of the best things about Raise Your Voice is the way Kathy Khang unpacks the story of Esther in the New Testament.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Kathy Khang
- Twitter: @mskathykhang
- Instagram: @mskathykhang
- Blog: http://www.kathykhang.com/
Books mentioned:
- Raise Your Voiceby Kathy Khang
- A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle

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41. The Law of the Splintered Paddle Jul 01, 2019

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What happens when a couple of Hawaiian fisherman hit King Kamehameha over the head with a canoe paddle so hard that the paddle breaks? You get the Law of the Splintered Paddle.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

While on vacation in Hawaii, Markus came across a figure of King Kamehameha at a gift shop.
Markus got curious about King Kamehameha, so he did some Google research.
King Kamehameha is known for unifying the Hawaiian Islands about two hundred years ago.
Markus tells the story of the Law of the Splintered Paddle.
The Law of the Splintered Paddle, instituted by King Kamehameha was intended to protect the weak and powerless from predators.
The Law of the Splintered Paddle and the way in which it was instituted, are a reflection of shalom—even though King Kamehameha was not a Christian.
Where in your life do you see shalom emerging? How can you support it? Are you called to participate in it?

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40. Preaching, Worship, and Justice, with Jennifer Ackerman Jun 24, 2019

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Jennifer Ackerman, Director of the Lloyd John Ogilvie Institute of Preaching and the Director of the Ogilvie Instutute’s Micah Groups tells us all about Micah Groups in the interview. What are Micah Groups? Micah Groups are a way for spiritual leaders to grow in the integration of preaching, worship, and justice in their ministries.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jennifer Ackerman is the Director of the Lloyd John Ogilvie Institute of Preaching.
The Ogilvie Institute is committed to being a place where preaching, worship, and justice converge.
Micah Groups was created by Mark Labberton, the first Director of the Ogilvie Institute (and current President of Fuller Theological Seminary), to help pastors integrate preaching, worship, and justice.
Jennifer Ackerman’s doctoral dissertation is on pastor and theologian Howard Thurman and his role in the Civil Rights Movement.
Jennifer tells more about Micah Groups.
The name, “Micah Groups,” is based on Micah 6:8.
Jennifer shares some great stories about Micah Groups.
Christena Cleveland wrote a book called Disunity in Christ in which she discusses the importance of getting out of our bubbles.
Jennifer Ackerman feels God shaped her to be a “catalytic leader,” drawing out the strengths of the people she leads.
Worship is a kind of practicing of who and what we are to be in the world.
Micah Groups gave Markus a greater capacity for stepping into situations that are uncomfortable.
Information about Micah Groups can be found at www.micahgroups.org.
The Ogilvie Institute is launching short 4-week Micah Intensives in which participants do individual work and then gather for a weekly webinar with other participants.
Contact Jennifer Ackerman at jenniferackerman@fuller.edu.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Micah Groups
- Website: http://www.micahgroups.org
- E-mail: jenniferackerman@fuller.edu
Book mentioned:
- Disunity in Christ by Christena Cleveland

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39. Mental Health and Suicide Prevention, with Jimm Greer, President of UMTR2ME Jun 17, 2019

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Jimm Greer is the Founder and President of UMTR2ME (pronounced “You matter to me”), an organization that provides hope, encouragement, and counseling to individuals who are struggling with thoughts of suicide. In this interview, Jimm shares his own story of struggling with mental health challenges and how those challenges led him to start UMTR2ME.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jimm Greer is the President and Founder of UMTR2ME (pronounced, “You Matter to Me”).
UMTR2ME provides hope, encouragement, and counseling to individuals who are struggling with thoughts of suicide.
Jimm Greer attempted suicide when he was in high school.
Jimm had struggled with mental health challenges, depression, and so forth for much of his life.
The words, “You matter to me,” are essential for someone who is going through a dark time.
Jimm Greer shares a couple of stories of people who chose not to attempt suicide because of the ministry of UMTR2ME.
For those who know someone who is considering suicide, it’s important not to be afraid to talk to them about it. The first question to ask is, “Why? Why are you feeling this way?”
The UMTR2ME bracelets are a tool to start conversations and remind people that they do matter to someone.
Jimm describes himself as having a “fierce” relationship with God.
The times that Jimm feels the closest to God are also the times when he feels the farthest from God.
Jimm Greer shares the story of how he started UMTR2ME. It came out of a dark moment of anger at God for not removing his mental health challenges. Jimm then changed his prayer to say, “God, I don’t want you to change me or fix me. I just want you to help me through this.” Within 72 hours, UMTR2Me was up and running.
UMTR2ME’s website is www.umtr2me.org. UMTR2ME can also be found on Facebook and Twitter.
UMTR2ME’s e-mail address is info@umtr2me.org, and the phone number is 760-440-UMTR (8687).

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

UMTR2ME
- Website: http://umtr2me.org/
- E-mail: info@umtr2me.org
- 760-440-UMTR (8687)
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/umtr2me
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/UMTR2ME

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."
Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
Click submit.

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

38. You Are God's Beloved Jun 10, 2019

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What does it mean to be God's beloved?
How do we measure success as churches? Generally, we measure success the same way the rest of society does: How many people show up? How big is your budget? How does your facility look? I’ve heard it refurred to as “bodies, bucks, and buildings.” But is that how God measures success?

The story of the Prodigal Son is a reminder that God doesn’t measure success the way we do. What matters to God is simply the reality that we belong to him. God would say to me, “The only thing that matters is that you are my beloved. On you may favor rests."

In this episode, Markus discusses the voice of the “the distant country” that tells us we need to prove ourselves, and the voice of the Father who says simply, “You are God's beloved.”

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

This is based on the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-24.
Home wasn’t just the place where he lived; it’s the place where he was loved.
The voice of the distant country says, “Show us what you’ve got. Prove yourself.”
For churches, the voice of the distant country is expressed in what I call self-preservation and self-propagation.
To declining churches, the distant country says, “What’s wrong with you?”
To growing churches, the distant country says, “Look at you! You’re something!”
As individuals, every time I try to show how successful I am, how educated I am, how theologically astute I am, I am responding to the voice of the distant country.
What does returning home look like?
For churches, it means returning to faithfulness. In other words, making faithfulness the number one measure of success (as opposed to measuring success based on how many people show).
Returning home also involves returning to the mission of God, to bring healing and wholeness—shalom—to the world.
You don’t have to be a big, well-resourced church to participate in the mission of God.
For individuals, what does it mean to return home?
It means no longer listening to the voice that says, “Show us what you’ve got.”
It means listening to voice of the Father that simply says, “You are my beloved, on you my favor rests. Regardless of what you’ve accomplished.” Yes, you are God's beloved.
God doesn’t celebrate because of what we accomplish or because of how successful we are.
What God celebrates is when we begin to listen to the voice of the Father, who says, “You are my beloved. On you my favor rests.”
The only greatness that matters is the greatness of God’s love for us.
You are God's beloved.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books mentioned
- The Return of the Prodigal Son by Henri Nouwen
Markus Watson
- Website: https://markuswatson.com/
- E-mail: markus@watsonspot.com
- Twitter: @markuswatson
- Instagram: @markuswats0n

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37. Journaling for People Who Hate to Journal, with Tracy Winchell, host of Reboots podcast Jun 03, 2019

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Journaling. Ugh… Some people love it. Some people hate it. Some people feel like they should be doing it because they’ve been told it will help them grow in their faith. But writing about their thoughts and feelings in a diary just doesn’t work for them.

Well, along comes Tracy Winchell to give all of the non-journalers a way to keep track of their inner life that will probably work much better for them. So, if you hate journaling—and even if you love it—you might be inspired by Tracy Winchell’s journaling method. And if you give it a shot, you might very well find yourself growing closer to God and closer to your true self.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tracy Winchell is the host of the Reboots Podcast, which tells stories of people who have had to start over in life and in business.
Because of the change she has had to navigate in her own life, Tracy is passionate about helping others navigate change.
The journaling method Tracy uses begins with simply writing down three things each morning for which she is grateful.
The next thing Tracy writes down is her answer to the question, “Where was I selfish today?” followed by, “Do I owe someone an apology?”
The next question Tracy answers in her journal is, “How did God speak to me today?”
- This question helps her make sure she is listening to God.
- It also gives her credit when she actually is listening to God.
- Finally, it helps her document what God was saying to her and look back to see if she followed through on what she sensed God saying to her.
Next, Tracy asks herself, “What good did I do today for myself or for someone else?”
Finally, she asks, “How will I get better tomorrow?”
In Episode 11, Discipleship and the Twelve Steps, Markus speaks with Kaye Schneider about the Twelve Step recovery process as a means of discipleship.
Tracy has created a downloadable document with this format for journaling. You can find it at www.rebootspodcast.com/spirituallifejournaling.
Listeners are invited to take a seven-day journaling challenge and let Tracy know how it goes.
How legalistic should we be about journaling? Tracy’s answer: Not at all.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Journaling Resource
- www.rebootspodcast.com/spirituallifejournaling
Tracy Winchell
- E-mail: tracy@rebootspodcast.com
Reboots Podcast
- Website: https://rebootspodcast.com/
- Instagram: @rebootspodcast
Books mentioned

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36. The Vulnerable Pastor, with Mandy Smith May 27, 2019

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Mandy Smith, Lead Pastor of University Christian Church in Cincinnati, Ohio, has written a wonderful book titled, The Vulnerable Pastor: How Human Limitations Empower Our Ministry, in which she shares about the ways our humanity and our weakness are actually a source of strength in our ministries.
Too often, we think we have to fit a particular ministry stereotype in order to experience success in our ministries. Mandy Smith exposes that stereotype for what it is, and gives us permission to be who we are so that God can work through our true selves—not the false selves we want the world to see.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mandy Smith is the Lead Pastor of University Christian Church in Cincinnati and the author of The Vulnerable Pastor: How Human Limitations Empower Our Ministry.
Mandy shares the story of her call to ministry.
Mandy felt like she needed to include a lot of her story in her book because the idea of a vulnerable pastor had to be embodied in a real person.
The way Mandy Smith uses the word “vulnerability” is not limited to the way Brene Brown uses it. For Mandy, vulnerability is about the experience of being human.
Mandy shares about the way she experienced weakness early in her ministry. In the midst of that, she heard God say, “In your weakness, I am strong.”
Mandy and Markus reflect on Enneagram types that may have a harder time with vulnerability.
We can help people in our ministries live out healthy vulnerability by modeling it for them.
Mandy Smith writes for both Missio Alliance and Christianity Today.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Mandy Smith:
- Twitter: @uccmandy
University Christian Church:
- Website: http://www.universitychristianchurch.net/
Books mentioned:
- The Vulnerable Pastor by Mandy Smith
- A Little Manual for Knowing by Esther Lightcap Meek

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35. God Wants His Kids Back, with Nate Landis, President of Urban Youth Collaborative May 20, 2019

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Nate Landis knows youth ministry is not easy. Especially in our Post-Christendom context. But Nate Landis, President and Founder of Urban Youth Collaborative has created an incredibly effective way for churches to reach out to the next generation. Any kind of church. A young, hip, millennial congregation, or an aging Baby Boomer and beyond congregation. In this episode, Nate Landis shares his passion for kids, for churches, and for helping churches pass their faith on to the next generation.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Nate Landis is the President and Founder of Urban Youth Collaborative.
Nate started his first Bible study in high school in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Nate was mentored early on by Tony Campolo.
Nate tells the story of how he was called to start Urban Youth Collaborative.
Urban Youth Collaborative (UYC) is designed to partner with churches to reach students through legal on-campus faith clubs.
Project 25 is a countywide project in San Diego County that gives students funds to use for ministry and service. Most student groups begin by multiplying the funds through fundraisers.
Markus reflects on the fact that UYC is designed to help restore shalom both in terms of students’ relationship with God and with their neighbors.
Nate Landis recently published a book titled God Wants His Kids Back: Schools of Thought to Reach a Lost Generation. The purpose of the book is to help people know what’s possible when it comes to helping kids connect with Jesus.
Urban Youth Collaborative is working with over sixty churches in San Diego.
Nate Landis is currently working on a follow-up book titled The Campus Ministry Playbook. This book is intended to show people how to practically help kids connect with Jesus.
Nate Landis' invitation to churches would be, “Come and see.” Come and see what God is doing on high school and middle school campuses.
Churches require these qualities to reach out to students well:
- Self-sacrifice
- Dependence on God
Books can be purchased in bulk at a discount from www.uyc.org.
Urban Youth Collaborative can be reached by e-mail at info@uyc.org and by phone at 619-768-0278.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Urban Youth Collaborative
- Website: https://www.uyc.org/
- E-mail: info@uyc.org
- Phone: 619-768-0278
God Wants His Kids Back: Schools of Thought to Reach a Lost Generation by Nate Landis

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34. A Small Church Making a Big Difference, with Cari Augusta May 13, 2019

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Cari Augusta is an elder at Westmorland Community Presbyterian Church, a small church in California’s agricultural Imperial Valley. The town of Westmorland itself struggles with a lot of food insecurity (which happens when a family runs out of food before the next paycheck comes). Last fall, this little church decided to do something about it. Specifically, they started a food pantry that now serves over 100 of the 800 households in the town of Westmorland.

In this episode, Cari Augusta tells the story of how the Food Pantry got started and the impact it is having both in the community and on the church.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Cari Augusta shares about her faith journey and what led her to Westmorland Community Presbyterian Church.
The church has long known about the challenges of poverty in Westmorland.
The first thing they tried was a health fair for the community.
The church started thinking beyond the one hour of Sunday morning worship and began thinking about how else God might be calling them to serve their community.
The Westmorland Community Food Pantry opened in November 2018, serving about 50 households per week. In May 2019, the Food Pantry serves over 100 households per week.
Cari Augusta leads the Westmorland Stakeholders Group, which brings community-minded people in Westmorland together to discuss and imagine ways to help people in the community.
The people who come to the Food Pantry for food are becoming friends.
The goal of the Food Pantry is not to try to get people to show up to church; it is simply to bless and love our neighbors in Westmorland.
The Food Pantry has stirred up a greater sense of family for the members of Westmorland Community Presbyterian Church.
The next step is to try to address issues of drug addiction and mental health in Westmorland.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Westmorland Community Presbyterian Church
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Westmorland-Community-Presbyterian-Church-459506967580608/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wcpreschurch/
To donate to the Westmorland Community Food Pantry, send a check to:
- Westmorland Community Presbyterian Church
- P.O. Box 668
- Westmorland, CA 92281
Make check out to: WCPC
- Designate the check to: Food Pantry
Flourish San Diego:
- Website: https://flourishsandiego.org/

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33. Experiencing Shalom at a James Taylor Concert May 06, 2019

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Is experiencing shalom at a James Taylor concert possible? Does God work only through people who are Christians? Does God only show up when we’re doing explicitly Christian things? Or can God be experienced anytime there is goodness and beauty and kindness?

Personally, I think God can be experienced anytime, anywhere–even at a James Taylor concert! In this episode, I reflect on the themes of broken shalom and restored shalom–which are reflections of God at work in the world–in the music of James Taylor.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Markus and his wife went to Las Vegas to see James Taylor in concert--truly a moment of experiencing shalom!
Markus had a bit of a spiritual experience during the concert.
James Taylor’s songs all revolve around images of shalom and broken shalom.
The song, Carolina in My Mind, depicts the broken shalom of homesickness and the restoration of shalom as he goes “to Carolina in my mind.”
The invitation of God is, “Come home.”
There are people who are longing for a place to call home. This is part of the immigration challenge in the world to today.
“Home” is a place of experiencing shalom.
How can the church help those without a home find a place that they can call home?
The song, Fire and Rain, presents images of both broken and restored shalom, especially in regard to relationships.
A broken relationship is broken shalom.
The song, You’ve Got a Friend, is a picture of restored shalom, especially in regard to relationships.
The song, Shower the People, shows what it looks like when people pour out love—experiencing shalom—on the people they care about.
Shower the People is a picture of restored shalom.
As Markus looked down on the crowd, he had a profound sense that all of these children are loved by God.
The concert gave people an experience of the shalom that God wants for us.
God wants to restore shalom in every aspect of our lives.
God isn’t limited working only through church people. Experiencing shalom is possible anywhere.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

If you want to hear James Taylor’s best, this is a good one:
- James Taylor, Greatest Hits
And this is the biography of James Taylor that my wife is currently reading:
- Sweet Dreams and Flying Machines: The Life and Music of James Taylor

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32. Emotional Resilience and Spiritual Leadership, with Ron Ovitt Apr 15, 2019

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Ron Ovitt is the President and founder of Empower Ministry, which helps people grow into healthy Christians empowered for ministry in their lives. For Ron, becoming a healthy follower of Jesus involves developing what he calls emotional resilience—the ability to bounce back from painful experiences in our lives. In this episode, Ron explains what emotional resiliance involves and why it is so important for spiritual leadership.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Empower Ministry’s goal is to empower people to overcome their addictions and emotional challenges so they can fully be who they were meant to be.
Ron Ovitt grew up with a fair amount of anxiety and depression.
Ron Ovitt studied psychology, which played a part in his emotional healing.
He discovered that emotional resilience is a key component of the inner healing people need.
The Five Signs of a Healthy Christian:
- Love Jesus
- Love God’s Word
- Emotional Resilience
- Spirit-led
- Outwardly Focused
Emotional resilience refers to the ability to bounce back from painful experiences and return to joy.
Emotional resilience can be broken down into three parts:
- Emotional recognition
- Emotional regulation
- Emotional relearning
Ron Ovitt likes to say, “If you embrace it you can erase it.”
People who struggle emotionally are unable to talk about it at church because of the stigma. The church should be the safest place in the world to talk about emotional struggles.
Ron Ovitt’s book, Power Up!, is available as a free PDF at www.empowerministry.org/powerup

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Power Up! free PDF:
- https://www.empowerministry.org/powerup/
Ron Ovitt
- Email: ron@empowerministry.org
Empower Ministry:
- Website: https://www.empowerministry.org/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/EmpowerFor
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/empowerforliving/
Books by Ron Ovitt:
Other books mentioned:
- Shame and Grace: Healing the Shame We Don’t Deserve by Lewis Smedes

To leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

31. Why is Ministry Harder Than it Used to Be? Apr 08, 2019

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Why is ministry harder than it used to be? Church attendance is declining every year. Fewer people than ever have even set foot in a church. The church as an institution has far less influence in our society than it used to.

Why is this? What happened?

The fact is we live in a Post-Christendom world. Christendom is that part of the world and that part of world history in which Christianity was the dominant shaper of culture. We might even say Christianity was the culture.

But we live in a very different world.

In this episode, Markus Watson unpacks the origin of Christendom, how it shaped the church, and the reality of our Post-Christendom existence.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Markus shares a story about feeling frustrated that attendance and giving in his church were both declining. Ministry is harder than it used to be.
We live in a Post-Christendom world.
Christendom and Christianity are not the same thing.
Christendom is that part of the world in which Christianity is in control of the culture.
Christendom began with the conversion to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine in 312 A.D.
When Constantine legalized Christianity, the church was suddenly thrust into a position of cultural and political power.
Before Christendom, becoming a Christian involved an intense 2-year period of catechesis and examination.
After Christendom, it was possible to be a Christian without conversion or commitment.
Constantine was never catechized and was baptized only shortly before his death.
A new distinction emerged.
- Before Christendom, the primary distinction was between church and world.
- During Christendom, the primary distinction was between clergy and laity.
The clergy’s job in Christendom was to provide spiritual goods and services for the “ordinary” Christians.
Ministry is harder today in part because people aren’t interested in the church’s spiritual goods and services.
Despite the fact that ministry is harder today than in the past, the decline of Christendom is actually a wonderful opportunity for the church. The church can recover its identity as a missionary people, participating with God to restore shalom in the world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books:

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30. Your Life is a Story, with Scott Schimmel, President of The You School Apr 01, 2019

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Scott Schimmel started The You School several years ago to help kids make the transition into adulthood. He and his team help students, families, and others who are in times of transition work through five key questions:

What do you believe in?
Who are you becoming?
What’s your mission?
How are you going to contribute?
Who do you belong to?

This is a process of identity formation, which, when it comes down to it, is also a process of spiritual formation.

In this episode, Scott Schimmel shares about how The YouSchool is helping not only kids, but all kinds of people (including veterans) make challenging transitions that ultimately lead to a life of purpose and fulfillment.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Scott Schimmel is the President and Chief Guide of The YouSchool.
Scott initially intended to go into accounting.
Scott Schimmel ended up serving with InterVarsity for ten years.
YouSchool was founded to help people get clear on their calling in the world, to help them transition well into life.
The ability to look at your life as a story is incredibly helpful for getting perspective on one’s life.
There are five key questions that The You School helps people answer:
- What do you believe in?
- Who are you becoming?
- What’s your mission?
- How are you going to contribute?
- Who do you belong to?
The You School’s process for helping people grow into healthy adults is really a process of spiritual formation, though they don’t use that language to describe what they are doing.
Scott Schimmel shares about his own spiritual formation leading up to the creation of You School, as well as how he has been shaped since starting You School.
You School works with several veterans’ organizations to help veterans transition out of the military.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

The YouSchool
- Website: https://www.theyouschool.com/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheYouSchool
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theyouschool/
- Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/user32651157
The YouSchool Podcast
- https://theyouschool.podbean.com/
Books:
- The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard
- Renovation of the Heart by Dallas Willard

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29. Serving the Poor and the Immigrant, with Ebenezer Church, San Diego Mar 25, 2019

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What do you if you’re leading a local congregation and you find out that a boy in your neighborhood has asthma because the landlord won’t fix the mold problem in his apartment building? If you’re the pastors of Ebenezer Church in San Diego, you cancel your regular worship service, meet the congregation in front of the apartment building, and stage a protest until the landlord agrees to do the right thing.

This is a great part of the story of Ebenezer Church. But what I especially love is what Pastor Noel Musicha says about this protest. He says he’s not really interested in protesting. What he’s interested in is restoring shalom.

Of course, there’s much more to Ebenezer Church than this. In this episode, I speak with Pastors Noel Musicha and Jere Lester, a really great church located in the Linda Vista community of San Diego.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Noel Musicha and Jere Lester are the pastors of Ebenezer Church in San Diego.
Noel and Jere feel called to minister to the poor and immigrant community in San Diego’s community of Linda Vista.
There is power in the tradition of being a church. It is the environment where inner life transformation takes place, which allows for the outer life of ministry to the community.
Ebenezer Church meets in the sanctuary of Linda Vista Presbyterian Church. Noel and Jere highly value the ministry and heritage of their host congregation.
They learned early on that the most important thing they were going to take to the community was not good theology, but their own pain.
Ebenezer Church exists to meet the immigrant and the poor.
Ebenezer Church’s leadership reflects the diversity of the community.
Jere learned about a boy who had asthma because his building had mold. When the landlord refused to do anything about it, Ebenezer Church moved their church service to the apartment building and protested until the landlord agreed to fix the problem.
Noel isn’t interested in protesting. He is interested in restoring shalom.
Ebenezer Church’s website is www.ebenezerchurchsd.com. You can also find them on Facebook and Instagram.
Worship services are Sunday nights at 5pm (followed by dinner) at Linda Vista Presbyterian Church.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Ebenezer Church
- Website: http://ebenezerchurchsd.com/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EbenezerChurchSD/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ebenezerchurchsd/
Linda Vista Presbyterian Church
- Website: http://lvpres.org/
Presbytery of San Diego
- Website: https://www.presbyterysd.org/
1001 New Worshiping Communities
- Website: https://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/1001-2/

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28. Empowering Women in Ministry, with Tara Beth Leach Mar 18, 2019

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Why does it still surprise me to hear that a woman has been called to be the Senior Pastor of a church? Why is there still a part of me that thinks ministry leadership is a man’s job? Probably because the patriarchy of our culture has shaped me more deeply than I know.

But, unlike me, God does not set limits on who is called to ministry leadership.

In this episode, Tara Beth Leach, Senior Pastor of First Church of the Nazarene of Pasadena–affectionately known to many as PazNaz–shares the story of her call to ministry and the challenges she has faced along the way. Tara Beth is the author of Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tara Beth Leach is the Senior Pastor of First Church of the Nazarene of Pasadena, or “PazNaz.” She is also the author of Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry.
Tara Beth first felt her call to ministry when she was in high school. But she was told she couldn’t be a pastor.
Even though her Nazarene denomination affirms women in ministry, Tara Beth noticed that the reality was that women were being sidelined.
Leading PazNaz has been the hardest thing Tara Beth Leach has ever done.
Tara Beth Leach works hard to process the challenge of ministry in a healthy way.
Mandy Smith, author of The Vulnerable Pastor, is part of Tara Beth Leach’s support system.
The issue of women in ministry is not merely a justice issue; it’s a gospel issue and a missional issue.
Tara Beth encourages “amplification,” a practice in which women and men “amplify” the voices of women in the room by repeating and highlighting the words the women in the room are speaking.
Tara Beth Leach encourages women to lead from their femininity. But this is a very complicated topic because femininity is, in many ways, culturally constructed. The bottom line for women is basically just…lead from who you authentically are.
Patriarchy, which emerged out of the curses in Genesis 3, is not prescriptive (“this is how you should live), but descriptive (“this is what the world looks like when sin becomes part of the story”).
We have been called to live by the reality of the resurrection, not under the shadow of the curse.
We need to be less myopic and, instead, begin to take note of those around us—men and women—who have been called to ministry.
Tara Beth Leach encourages women in ministry to take one faithful step at a time.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books mentioned
- Emboldened: A Vision for Empowering Women in Ministry
- The Vulnerable Pastor
Tara Beth Leach
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/TaraBeth82
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tarabeth82/
First Church of the Nazarene of Pasadena
- Website: https://www.paznaz.org/

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27. Developing a Framework for Intentional Spiritual Growth Mar 10, 2019

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Followers of Jesus need a framework for intentional spiritual growth.
Consider what happens to a grapevine when it doesn’t have a trellis on which to grow. I imagine that the vine just sort of lays on the ground and the grapes end up getting eaten by worms or bugs. But when the vine has a trellis, the grapevine is able to bear much fruit.

Likewise, we need a trellis for our lives if we are going to “bear much fruit” (as Jesus says in John 15). We need a framework for intentional spiritual growth. In Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, Peter Scazzero explains that this framework is called a “Rule of Life.” In this episode, I talk about 1) why you need a Rule of Life and 2) how to develop a Rule of Life.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Spiritual growth requires intentionality.
Jesus stresses the importance of intentionally staying connected to him in John 15:1-8. Only then can we “bear much fruit.”
A “Rule of Life” is an intentional framework for our lives to help us grow spiritually.
The word “rule,” according to Peter Scazzero, comes from the Greek word for “trellis.” It is a structure that helps the vine grow, rest, and bear as much fruit as possible.
The story of Daniel demonstrates the power of intentional spiritual growth.
Daniel was betrayed by other administrators in the Persian Empire. Rather than retreating, defending himself, or fighting back, Daniel simply returned to his Rule of Life—praying three times daily by his window that faced Jerusalem.
It was Daniel’s Rule of Life that gave him the strength to be faithful to God even when his life was threatened.
A Rule of Life can be structures with four categories in mind: prayer, rest, relationships, and work/activity.
Select one or two practices to engage in for each category.
- Prayer
- Rest
- Relationships
- Work/Activity
It takes trial and error to develop a Rule of Life. But we need to pursue intentional spiritual growth.
Don’t get legalistic about your Rule of Life. As soon as your Rule of Life becomes a duty and chore, it will no longer be life-giving or draw you close to God.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books
Pray As You Go (daily devotional podcast)
- Website: https://pray-as-you-go.org/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/prayasugo
Scriptures
- John 15:1-8
- Daniel 6:1-11

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26. Planting Churches in a Post-Christendom World, with Daniel So and Jeya So Mar 04, 2019

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Daniel So and Jeya So are both experienced church-planters and experienced coaches of church-planters.
There was a time when you could start a new church simply by walking into a new part of town, knocking on doors to let people know about the new church, and within a few weeks there would be a hundred people or so–especially if they already belonged to that denomination or tradition. But church-planting is not that easy in a Post-Christendom world.

Daniel So and Jeya So will share about the challenges and the joys of starting new churches—or as they put it, “new worshiping communities”—in the 21st century.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Daniel So and Jeya So are the pastors of Anchor City Church in San Diego. Daniel is also the Director of Cyclical San Diego, the Presbytery of San Diego’s church planting initiative. Jeya does assessing and coaching of church plant leaders with “1001 New Worshiping Communities,” national church planting initiative of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
The most formative book Jeya has read in recent years is Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis.
The two most formative books Daniel has read is The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard and From a Liminal Place: An Asian American Theology by Sang Hyun Lee.
Cyclical is more about cultivating environments in which new worshiping communities can grow and thrive than it is about starting new denominational churches.
A new church is far more nimble and responsive than most established churches.
In order to effectively start new churches and worshiping communities, larger church bodies need to be supportive and open-handed.
The purpose for starting new churches can’t be to save the denomination. It has to be for the sake of the kingdom of God.
Large churches must be willing to let go of and support leaders and staff who feel called to start new churches.
A lot of the qualities required for church planting can apply to church revitalization.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS

Books
Daniel So
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/headsparks/
Cyclical San Diego
- Website: https://cyclicalsd.org/
Anchor City Church
- Website: https://anchorcity.org/
Cyclical Los Angeles
- Website: http://www.cyclicalla.com/

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25. Organizational Change and the Way of Exploration, with Dwight Gibson, The Exploration Group Feb 25, 2019

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We live in an age of incredible change. Traditional entertainment like TV is being replaced by streaming on-demand media. Traditional stores are being replaced by online shopping. Traditional churches are having a harder and harder time knowing where they fit in a culture that is so drastically different than it was fifty years ago.

This is where Dwight Gibson and the way of exploration comes in. Dwight Gibson has been helping organizations “explore” new ways of being, new ways of doing, new ways of fulfilling their mission. Dwight is an expert when it comes to organizational exploration. He has years of experience helping organizations find their way from where they are to where they need to be. And he guides them by means of what he calls “the way of exploration.”

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

When an organization knows they need to get from “here” to “there,” but they don’t know how, Dwight Gibson and The Exploration Group are able to step in and help them find the way by means of exploration.
There are organization that die by doing nothing and there are organizations that die by trying to do everything.
The “Way of Exploration” consists of three phases: starting, doing, and finding.
Starting
- The Choice to Go Beyond… Beyond where the organization currently is.
- The Crossroads… The decision that’s made to change the status quo. They are willing to actually do something (e.g., spending some money, hiring staff, hiring a consultant, etc.).
Doing
- Pondering… Involves asking questions, studying, talking to people, doing research, and so forth. A very open-ended part of the process.
- Landmarking… Start identifying insights.
- Orienteering… When you start putting landmarks together to create a new value chain, to start charting the way forward.
Finding
- Realization… Recognizing an outcome. But it’s not always clear when this happens. It may be progressive over time. And what is realized may be very different than what was initially expected.
- Evaluation… Four questions:
  - What did we know now that we didn’t know before?
  - What don’t we need that we used to need that we picked up along the way?
  - What do we see now?
  - Do we go back to the way it used to be?
As people of faith, we ought to have a greater capacity for exploration because we know there is something beyond us.
Dwight Gibson says the way of exploration does not guarantee an answer at the end. But you always learn something.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

The Exploration Group
- Website: https://www.exploradelphia.com/
Books about adaptive leadership:
- Leadership on the Line: Staying Alive Through the Dangers of Change by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky
- The Practice of Adaptive Leadership: Tools and Tactics for Changing Your Organization and the World by Ronald Heifetz, Alexander Grashow, and Marty Linsky

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24. Joining God's Mission Through Neighborhood Exegesis, with Marcos Mujica Feb 18, 2019

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What is neighborhood exegesis?
One of the most eye-opening ideas for me over the last 10-15 years is the idea that God is already ahead of the church, out in the world, working through all kinds of people to bring healing and wholeness to the world. Lesslie Newbigin calls this idea “the previousness of the gospel.”

The reason this idea meant so much to me was because it took the pressure off. As a pastor, I wasn’t responsible for achieving God’s purposes in the world. What I was responsible for was to become aware of where and how God was at work and then join God in what God was already doing.

But how do you become aware of what God is doing?

In this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Marcos Mujica explains how the process of “neighborhood exegesis” can help churches, not only get to know their neighborhoods, but also discover where God is at work and how God may be calling them to join him in his mission.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Marcos Mujica is the President of Agrarian Craft, which does landscape construction and regenerative agriculture.
Two books have had a big impact on Marcos:
- Scripture, Culture, and Agriculture by Ellen Davis
- Torture and Eucharist by William Cavanaugh
Exegesis is the process by which we derive meaning out of texts.
Exegesis is about reading the narrative that is displayed before us.
Our neighborhoods can tell us stories.
Marcos’ process of neighborhood exegesis:
- Teach the leadership team about salvation.
- Start researching the neighborhood through online resources and interviews.
The goal is to discover the assets, the problems, and needs of the neighborhood, so that the church can discover how God may be calling them to serve their neighborhood.
It’s much more effective when the church itself is involved in doing the neighborhood exegesis, rather than just hiring someone like Marcos to do it.
After they have studied the neighborhood, they lay it all before the Lord and pray for discernment on how God is calling them.
Do the people of peace have to be Christians? No. God is not limited to working only through Christians.
The most important quality a church needs when doing neighborhood exegesis is a prayerful and expectant posture.
God is the main character in this story and we are participants in it.
We should be alarmed because of sin, but we also should be hopeful because God is in our midst.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Agrarian Craft
- Website: https://www.agrariancraft.com/
Books mentioned
- Scripture, Culture, and Agriculture: An Agrarian Reading of the Bible by Ellen Davis
- Torture and Eucharist: Theology, Politics, and the Body of Christ by William Cavanaugh
- The Open Secret: An Introduction to Theology and Mission by Lesslie Newbigin
- Planet of the Slums by Mike Davis

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23. Joining God's Mission Through Regenerative Agriculture, with Marcos Mujica Feb 11, 2019

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Marcos Mujica, the President of Agrarian Craft, is a brilliant gardener and farmer. But here’s the cool thing about Marcos. His farming is not just about farming. It’s about participating with God in the healing of this world. It’s about restoring shalom to the earth. It’s about transforming the world, broken by sin, into what God intended when God created the world.

In this episode, we talk with Marcos Mujica about the amazing work he is doing through his company, Agrarian Craft.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Marcos is good friends with Mario DeMatteo, who was interviewed in Episode 6 of Spiritual Life and Leadership. Mario spoke about he became a quadriplegic and beginning to publish Christian graphic novels.
Humans were created to have dominion over the earth, meaning exercising skillful mastery over the earth.
Marcos Mujica's business is called Agrarian Craft.
One of the most important components of growing food is high-quality, bioactive, nutrient rich soil. Unfortunately, there’s not enough of it today.
Marcos started making his own compost. He offered horse ranches manure management services in order to make his compost.
Agrarian Craft does landscape construction to make ends meet, but the work they really want to do is regenerative agriculture.
Marcos Mujica wants to ignite an agrarian revolution.
Agrarian Craft wants to start an apprenticeship program for disadvantaged populations. After two years, Agrarian Craft would help them start their own farm.
Salvation is most clearly expressed by God’s reign on earth as it is in heaven.
We have narrowed our soteriology to an eschatological escapism. We’re saved once we die. But salvation begins here and now.
Marcos Mujica believes God has called him to green God’s earth.
Agrarian Craft is driven, not only by profit, but also by planet and people.
Agrarian Craft uses regenerative methods of farming.
You can find out more about Agrarian Craft at https://www.agrariancraft.com/
Marcos Mujica is awestruck every time he sees manure transformed into life-giving soil. He sees his own life in similar terms.
The name “Adam” comes from the Hebrew adamah, which means soil. Adam is the soil creature. Likewise, the English word “human” derives from the word “humus.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Agrarian Craft
- Website: https://www.agrariancraft.com/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AgrarianCraft/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/agrarian.craft/
Books mentioned
- Scripture, Culture, and Agriculture: An Agrarian Reading of the Bible by Ellen Davis

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22. Wine and Words (and Nuggets), with the Uncommon Good Team Feb 04, 2019

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Uncommon Good is an experimental church bringing in the kingdom of God by bringing people together in "uncommon" ways.
What happens when a group of church leaders stop asking “How do we get people to come to church?” And instead start asking, “How do we create spaces people want to be?”

Today we hear from a team that has spent the last year wandering outside the church walls trying to answer that question. And along the way they have discovered a huge gap between church and culture.

Call them a church, or a faith community, or maybe just call them weird… but whatever you call them, Uncommon Good is working hard to bring the kingdom of God to the community by making spaces at parks, restaurants, and wineries in really Uncommon ways.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

The Uncommon Good team is Cody Vermillion, Ryan Ross, and Dawn Neldon.
The most formative book Dawn has read is The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery by Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile.
The most formative book Ryan is currently reading Awaken the Sleeping Self by …. But the most formative book he has read is Chasing Daylight by Erwin McManus.
Cody is currently reading Get Weird: Discover the Secret to Making a Difference by C.J. Casciotta.
Uncommon Good creates non-threatening spaces where people can realize their connection with God and one another in community.
How does Uncommon Good actually do this? How do they help people realize their connection with God and on another in community? Here are a couple of examples of how they do this:
The Uncommon Party: Simply a fun get-together where people can have fun together and enjoy being together and getting to know one another.
Wine and Words: Usually held at a winery where they teach and speak about life, faith, and being human. They have conversation that you can’t have in “temple,” but you can have it in the living room.
Leading such an experimental ministry has led the Uncommon Good team into deeper dependence on God for their sense of security.
Dawn says her last few years of spiritual formation have been lonely and intense.
Markus shares about his journey out of the wilderness back into church ministry.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Books mentioned
- The Road Back to Youby Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile
- To Shake the Sleeping Self by Jedidiah Jenkins
- Chasing Daylight: Seize the Power of Every Moment by Erwin McManus
- Get Weird: Discover the Secret to Making a Difference by C.J. Casciotta
Uncommon Good
- Website: https://uncommongoodsd.com/
- Facebook: UncommonGoodSD
- Instagram: UncommonGoodSD
- Podcast: Uncommon Cast

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21. Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Discipleship for the Common Good, with Brant Himes Jan 28, 2019

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Brant Himes is the author of For a Better Worldliness: Abraham Kuyper, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Discipleship for the Common Good.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s life is an incredibly powerful story. The son of a German psychiatrist in an aristocratic family in the early 20th century, Bonhoeffer made the unlikely decision to study theology. In so doing, Bonhoeffer encountered a Jesus who revolutionized his life and would not let go of him.

Brant Himes and I talk about Bonhoeffer’s understanding of discipleship and how that understanding not only shaped the way he trained pastors, but also led him to conspire against Adolf Hitler—a conspiracy that ultimately failed and led to his execution.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Brant Himes is the author of For a Better Worldliness: Kuyper, Bonhoeffer, and Discipleship for the Common Good.
Brant Himes is the Assistant Professor of Humanities for Los Angeles Pacific University (part of the Azusa Pacific University system). He is also the Managing Editor for Resonance Journal.
The most formative book Brant Himes has ever read is Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s Discipleship. Brant explains why the English title was changed from The Cost of Discipleship to simply Discipleship.
The first half of For a Better Worldliness focuses on Abraham Kuyper, whom Brant and Markus discuss in Episode 15 of Spiritual Life and Leadership. The title of Episode 15 is “Abraham Kuyper and Discipleship for the Common Good.”
As the Nazis took control of Germany, he felt the need to establish underground training centers for pastors.
There was a strong emphasis on spiritual disciplines and spiritual formation in Bonhoeffer’s seminaries.
The danger of the Nazi influence was a catalyst for the way Bonhoeffer trained pastors.
Brant Himes explains three key concepts in Bonhoeffer’s writings—“theology of life” (God is over all of life, even the painful parts), “this-worldliness” (God is not far removed from us; God is present in all aspects of our life and the world), and “God of the gaps” (the purpose of God is not merely to fill in the gaps in our understanding; God is Lord over all of life).
Brant Himes’ definition of discipleship: Discipleship is the response to the call to follow-after Jesus Christ in all aspect of human life and endeavor, from the inner personal disciplines to the deliberate shaping of culture—in the very midst of the world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

For a Better Worldliness, by Brant Himes
Books by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
- Discipleship
- Life Together
- Ethics
- Reader’s Edition Collection (Discipleship, Ethics, Letters and Papers from Prison, Life Together)

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20. Sin and Shalom Jan 21, 2019

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Sin and shalom. What's the connection?
Cornelius Plantinga, Jr., describes sin as “culpable shalom-breaking.” What does that mean? In this episode of “Spiritual Life and Leadership,” Markus Watson discusses what sin is and what we should do about it.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

To understand sin and shalom, we have to start at the beginning in Genesis.
Shalom is a good word to describe the world as God created.
Shalom refers to a comprehensive sense of well-being that touches every aspect of life.
There is a four-fold nature to shalom (see Episode 3: The Fourfold Nature of Shalom)—shalom with God, with one another, within ourselves, and with the created order.
Something happened that disrupted world’s shalom—namely, sin.
We read about the disruption of shalom in Genesis 3.
The fact that men tend to dominate over women is not a prescription of how God wants things to be. It is a description of how things are because sin has entered our story.
Cornelius Plantinga, in Not the Way It’s Supposed to Be: A Breviary of Sin defines sin as “disruption of created harmony.” It is “culpable shalom-breaking.”
Plantinga says, “God is for shalom and, therefore, against sin.”
Sin is “culpable shalom-breaking” because we are responsible.
We can participate with God in the restoration of shalom.
I don’t believe human beings are inherently sinful, though we may have a tendency toward sin. We are originally creatures of shalom. We are creatures of both sin and shalom.
The result of sin is that we have a broken world.
How do we respond to sin? We surrender to the God who wants to restore shalom.
We surrender in two ways: 1) confession and 2) living fully into our vocations.
Confession restores the shalom between us and God. It also restores shalom within ourselves because it heals our shame.
Irenaeus said, “The glory of God is a human being fully alive.”
We need to confess to one another. Confessing to a person makes God’s forgiveness tangible.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Life Together, talks about the need to confess to one another.
Living fully into our vocations is about more than just our jobs. It has to do with all of our callings—as a parent, student, citizen, etc.
When you live out your vocations you are participating with God to restore shalom in the world.
God is moving us toward a world of beauty, goodness, healing, and relational health--out of sin and into shalom.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Not the Way It’s Supposed to Be: A Breviary of Sin, by Cornelius Plantinga, Jr.
Life Together, by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
The Four-fold Nature of Shalom, Episode 3 of Spiritual Life and Leadership

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19. The Ungiving Tree, with Dwight Gibson Jan 14, 2019

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The Ungiving Tree--a parody of The Giving Tree--is as simple and as profound as Shel Silverstein’s original.

In this episode, Dwight Gibson reads to us The Ungiving Tree and reflects on the importance of sharing with the world the gifts that God has given us.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Dwight Gibson is the Chief Explorer with and organization called The Exploration Group.
Dwight founded The Exploration Group in 2009. When an organization needs to do something new, they need to be able to explore using the principles of exploration. The Exploration Group helps organizations use the principles of exploration to get from where they are to where they need to be.
The most formative book Dwight ever read was a book about Thomas Edison that him mother gave him in first grade.
Dwight Gibson read the story, The Ungiving Tree, (which is a spoof of the famous children’s book, The Giving Tree, by Shel Silverstein), in the video series, For the Life of the World.
The Ungiving Tree story was originally read to children. They immediately knew that there was something wrong.
The Ungiving Tree demonstrates that we are not meant to hold tightly to the gifts we’ve been given. We are meant to share them.
Markus used to think about stewardship primarily in terms of money.
Markus bought The Stewardship Bibleto use a resource to talk about money. But The Stewardship Bible is about stewardship in all of life. It turns out that The Stewardship Bible was edited by two of Dwight Gibson’s colleagues, Stephen Grabill and Brett Elder.
Sometimes the greatest gifts we can give are the things that come most naturally to us.
Our work is the way we share our gifts with the world.
There are so many gifts in the universe that are yet to be discovered. These gifts are discovered through our work.
Dwight Gibson can be reached through The Exploration Group website: www.exploradelphia.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

The Exploration Group
- Website: https://www.exploradelphia.com/
The Ungiving Tree video clip
For the Life of the World video series
The Stewardship Bible, edited by Stephen Grabill and Brett Elder

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18. Ministering to Those Done With Ministry, with DG Hollums Jan 07, 2019

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Ministry can be incredibly rewarding and it can be incredibly painful. In this episode, DG Hollums, shares about his own painful experience in ministry. But he doesn’t stop there. DG Hollums also shares the steps he is taking to bring together an online community for those who have suffered in ministry. Rather than becoming angry and cynical, DG is taking his experience of betrayal and hurt and is following God’s call to bless others who have had similar experiences.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

DG Hollums describes his time as pastor of a church plant in Cincinnati called The Waters. It was a church that included followers of Jesus, as well as atheists and agnostics.
Diana Butler Bass in A People’s History of Christianitysuggests that we should on the Great Commandments than the Great Commission.
Charles Wesley said he would know if someone was a Christian based on whether or not he saw the fruit of the Spirit in their life.
DG has experienced severe betrayal in his ministry life. He describes it as “pure pain.”
DG refers to those who have left ministry or are about to leave ministry because of the hurt they’ve experienced as “Dones” or “Almost Dones.” They aren’t done with their faith, but they are almost done with church.
Henri Nouwen in The Wounded Healer suggests that perhaps it is the wounded who need to be leading our churches.
Markus shares that his own experience of being wounded by the church has made him more compassionate and has given him greater clarity as to why the church exists.
DG is in the early stages of creating an online community that would help people who are “Done” or “Almost Done” with ministry find their calling through discipleship, mentoring, spiritual practices, career coaching, and so forth.
DG Hollums is writing a book titled The Divine Senses to help people pray through all of their senses.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

DG Hollums
- E-mail: argonhollums@gmail.com
- Twitter: @argon52
DG Hollums' Photography
- Website: www.hollumsphotography.com
Books mentioned

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17. Not Ashamed of Sinners, Matthew 1:1-17 Dec 16, 2018

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The genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1:1-17 is so much more than a list of Jesus’ ancestors. It is the beginning of the good news about Jesus. Matthew does something quite extraordinary with the inclusion of the four women in the genealogy of Jesus–not because he included women, but because of who the women are. Right from the beginning, Matthew makes it clear who is included in the story of Jesus and that Jesus is not ashamed of people the world tends to sideline.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

The genealogy of Jesus is found in Matthew 1:1-17.
The first two words in Greek of Matthew’s gospel are biblos geneseos.
- In the NIV translation these words are translated, “This is the genealogy….”
- A very literal translation of these word would be “book of genesis.”
Matthew seems to be indicating that he’s going to tell the story of a new creation.
The genealogy of Jesus (Matthew 1:1-17) mentions four women.
The four women mentioned are Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba (“Uriah’s wife”).
- Tamar posed as a prostitute to get her father-in-law, Judah, to sleep with her (Genesis 38:6-26).
- Rahab was a prostitute who helped the Israelite spies who were scoping out the Promised Land (Joshua 2:1-6).
- Ruth was a Moabite (Ruth 1-4). Moabites were the descendants of Lot’s incestuous relationships with his daughters.
- Bathsheba (“Uriah’s wife) committed adultery with King David (2 Samuel 11:1-27).
All four of these women were foreigners.
- Tamar was a Canaanite.
- Rahab was a Jerichoite.
- Ruth was a Moabite.
- Bathsheba, by marriage to her husband, was a Hittite.
Jesus brings a mercy that is both deep and wide.
- It is deep because it is for all who are sinners.
- It is wide because it is for all people, for all the nations.
By including these four women in the genealogy of Jesus (Matthew 1:1-17), Matthew begins the story of his gospel by showing us that Jesus is not ashamed of sinners.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Matthew: A Commentary. Volume 1: The Christbook, Matthew 1-12. By Dale Bruner.
- This is a fantastic commentary that has been incredibly helpful to me over the years.

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16. Canoeing the Mountains, with Tod Bolsinger Dec 10, 2018

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Chapter 1 of Canoeing the Mountains by Tod Bolsinger is titled, “Seminary Didn’t Prepare Me for This!” That is a great opening chapter title because that’s exactly how thousands of pastors feel.

When I was in seminary we learned how to study and exegete the scriptures. We learned to read Hebrew and Greek. We learned systematic theology. We learned how to provide pastoral care for church members. What we didn’t learn was how to lead a church in a world in which Christianity is no longer at the center of culture.

Tod Bolsinger’s book, Canoeing the Mountains, does an incredible job of helping church leaders understand what’s going on that makes church ministry so much more challenging than before, and how to begin to address those challenges. In this episode, Tod Bolsinger unpacks the “canoeing the mountains” metaphor and shares the way he himself has struggled as Fuller Seminary (where he serves as Vice President) has learned to adapt to a changing world.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Tod Bolsinger is the Vice President and Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary.
Tod Bolsinger is the author of Canoeing the Mountains.
The “canoeing the mountains” metaphor comes from Lewis and Clark. They were searching for the Northwest Passage to the Pacific Ocean. Instead, they found the Rocky Mountains.
Churches today assume that everything ahead of us is just like what’s behind us. But we’re discovering that’s just not true. We find we are in a world that we haven’t been prepared for.
In order to lead in these challenging times, pastors and ministry leaders need three things:
- Identity. Leaders need to know that their identity is in Christ more than in anything else. Leaders need a strong sense of self that’s not rooted in the anxiety of the group they are leading, but is able to stay connected to the group.
- Humility. Leaders need to recognize that we don’t know everything we need to know.
- Resilience. The capacity to be persistent in the face of resistance. Resistance will come even internally within the organization.
There are lots of entrepreneurial forms of ministry emerging, but the people leading those ministries are not interested in taking on debt and uprooting their lives in order to get a theological degree.
To meet some of these challenges, Fuller has started something called Fuller Leadership Platform, which makes all the research and scholarship Fuller provides and making it available to people in a digital format whether they need a degree or not.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Tod Bolsinger
- Canoeing the Mountains by Tod Bolsinger
Other important books about leading in challenging times:
- Leadership on the Line by Ronald Heifetz and Marty Linsky
- A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman

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15. Abraham Kuyper and Discipleship for the Common Good, with Brant Himes Dec 03, 2018

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Abraham Kuyper was a man who tried to live his whole life by these teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. He took the teachings of Jesus seriously and tried to live this all-of-life discipleship as a theologian, as a journalist, as an education reformer, and even as the Prime Minister of the Netherlands (a position he held 1901-1905).

In this interview, Brant Himes, who wrote For a Better Worldliness: Abraham Kuyper, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Discipleship for the Common Good, helps us understand who Abraham Kuyper is and how his life is an example of the kind of discipleship to which all of us are called.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Brant Himes is the Assistant Professor of Humanities at Los Angeles Pacific University (a part of the Azusa Pacific University system) and Managing Editor of Resonance Journal (which you can learn more about in Episode 8 of Spiritual Life and Leadership).
Brant recently published his book, For a Better Worldliness: Abraham Kuyper, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and Discipleship for the Common Good.
Key quote from Abraham Kuyper:
- “No single piece of our mental world is to be hermetically sealed off from the rest, and there is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence in which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry: ‘Mine!’”
Abraham Kuyper lived from 1837-1920. He was the Prime Minister of the Netherlands from 1901-1905.
Kuyper started the Free University in Amsterdam. It was the first university that was free from state control and from church control.
“Sphere sovereignty” refers to Kuyper’s position that every aspect of life has its own functions and purposes; its own sphere. Over every sphere of life, tying it all together, is the sovereignty of God.
Abraham Kuyper partnered with Catholics on education reform. He believed that every family should be able to send their child to whatever kind of school they wanted to (state school or religious school), and cost should not get in the way of that. He succeeded in implementing state funding for all schools, regardless of their philosophy or ideology.
Brant structures his theology of discipleship around four movements: 1) The revelation of God, 2) the reality and sovereignty of Jesus Christ, 3) belief and obedience, and 4) the possibility and potential of discipleship.
We need to cultivate not only the inner spiritual disciplines in our lives, but also our theological convictions about how and why we are to engage in the world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

For a Better Worldliness, by Brant Himes
- Website: https://betterworldliness.org/
Resonance Journal
- Interview with Micah Lunsford, Episode 8: Thoughtfulness Matters

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14. Already Blessed, The Beatitudes Nov 26, 2018

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You are already blessed.
In the Beatitudes, Jesus wasn’t giving us a list of rules to follow so that we could be blessed. Jesus was declaring whom the kingdom of heaven was for. He was announcing good news—that those that the world considers cursed are already blessed because the kingdom of heaven has come near.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

The core of Jesus’ message was, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
Why repent? Because “the kingdom heaven has come near.”
What kinds of people started following Jesus? The sick, diseased, paralyzed, lame, blind, and so forth. People who would have been considered cursed by God. People who certainly did not believe they were already blessed.
Jesus begins the Sermon on the Mount with the word, “Blessed.” In Greek, this is the word makarios.
Makarios refers to a kind of well-being that is almost beyond human possibility.
The people to whom Jesus was speaking would never have been considered makarios. Yet, Jesus says they are. Jesus says they are already blessed.
“Poor in spirit” refers, not to a virtue to be pursued, but a spiritual poverty.
The Beatitudes are an announcement of the kind of people who belong in the kingdom of heaven; the kind of people for whom the kingdom of heaven has come.
The “rich in spirit” are blessed, too. But not because they are “rich in spirit.” They are blessed because the kingdom of heaven is for them, too.
The Beatitudes are not a list of rules. They are a declaration of who the kingdom of heaven is for.
The first four Beatitudes refer to qualities of which we would say, “They can’t be blessed.”
The next three Beatitudes refer to the kinds of qualities that emerge in us as we live out the reality of the kingdom of heaven.
As we live out the reality of the kingdom of heaven--the reality that we are already blessed--others will push back, even persecute us.
Even when I feel like I’m not blessed, God sees something in me that I don’t see in myself.
We take God’s kingdom with us into our homes, our workplaces, our neighborhoods, our fields.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

The Divine Conspiracy, by Dallas Willard

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13. An Unexpected Ministry to Refugees, with Pete Seiferth Nov 18, 2018

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Several years ago, Pete Seiferth’s church was feeling a bit down about declining attendance, declining giving, and all kinds of other declining. So they prayed. They prayed that God would send people to them.

And God answered their prayer. Except that the people God sent were not the people they were expecting. Rather than sending more middle-class white people, God sent African refugees and asylum seekers.

In this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Pete Seiferth tells the story of how God brought these new people to their church and how their church learned to be open to a whole new ministry—one that no one was expecting.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Pete Seiferth is the Associate Pastor for Discipleship and Multicultural Ministry at Northminster Presbyterian Church in Tucson, AZ.
Pete Seiferth describes the moment his church started getting involved in multicultural ministry. A Congolese man named Bienvenue asked if he and his congregation could use space in Pete’s church to worship.
Pete’s church started Refugee & Immigrant Ministry (RIM). They learned the unique needs of refugees and asylum seekers.
Asylum seekers come to the U.S. on various kinds of visas. While here, as things destabilized in their country, they applied for asylum in the United States. Asylum seekers are ineligible to work in the U.S. for the first six months. This puts them in a position of great need.
Pete’s church, Northminster Presbyterian Church, rents an apartment that they use to shelter homeless or near homeless asylum seekers while they wait for their work permit. They are also trained and prepared for seeking work and living independently.
Pete Seiferth shares that the church leadership prayed that God will send people to their church. And God did! However, the people God sent weren’t who they were expecting. But Pete’s church definitely believes that their new brothers and sisters were sent by God.
Northminster Presbyterian Church in Tucson is a multicultural church, but they are still learning to be an intercultural church.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Northminster Presbyterian Church, Tucson, AZ
- Website: http://npctucson.org/
Multiethnic Church Resources
- Mosaix: http://www.mosaix.info/
- Mosaix Books: http://www.mosaix.info/Resources/books-published
Books by Mark DeYmaz, author, pastor, and champion of Multiethnic Church Movement
Books by Soong-Chan Rah
- The Next Evangelicalism
- Many Colors
Refugee Highway Partnership, North America
- Website: https://www.rhpna.com/

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12. God is a Woman in Labor, with Christiana Rice Nov 12, 2018

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Christiana Rice shares a powerful image.
God is a woman giving birth and we are the midwife attending to God and to the new life that is coming into the world. That’s the image we’ll be unpacking in this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership. It’s not an image that normally comes to mind when we think about God. But it certainly isn’t unbiblical. Listen to how God describes himself (herself?) in Isaiah 42:14:

“For a long time I have kept silent,
I have been quiet and held myself back.
But now, like a woman in childbirth,
I cry out, I gasp and pant.”

Christiana Rice unpacks this powerful and visceral image in this episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Christiana Rice wrote a book with Michael Frost called To Alter Your World.
A key metaphor in Christiana Rice’s book portrays God as giving birth and the world as a midwife, joining with God to bring new life into the world.
Scripture portrays God in Isaiah as a woman in labor, groaning and panting, to give birth the new Israel.
Christiana asked, if God is the one giving birth, then who are we? We must be the attendants.
“Midwife” means “with woman.” To be a midwife is more about being “with” than about controlling the outcome.
The role of being with a woman in labor is incredibly intimate and vulnerable.
A midwife must enter a birth with humility, recognizing that this birth with will be utterly unique. She must let go her expectations.
As we attend to what God is birthing in the world, we, likewise, must be open to the new thing that is coming to life. We, too, must let go our expectations.
The midwife knows that she is not the one giving birth. Likewise, we are not the ones giving birth; God is.
Christiana Rice gives an example of how God birthed something new in her neighborhood schools. But it took time. And it required faithfully attending to the labor of God in her neighborhood.
Christiana Rice shares about her ministry with Thresholds in San Diego.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Christiana Rice
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/christiana.rice
- Twitter: @ctianarice
Thresholds
- Website: http://thresholdscommunity.org/
To Alter Your World: Partnering with God to Rebirth Our Communities, by Michael Frost and Christiana Rice
Michael Frost
- Twitter: @michaelfrost6

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11. Discipleship and the Twelve Steps, with Kaye Schneider Nov 05, 2018

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Kaye Schneider cares about spiritual transformation. So often, churches focus primarily on giving people information—theology, apologetics, Bible studies, etc. Information is good, but information doesn’t necessarily lead to deep transformation. In this episode, Kaye Schneider shares about how the Twelve Steps have deepened her own discipleship and how she now uses the Twelve Step process to help others experience deep, spiritual inner life transformation.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Kaye Schneider is a Marriage and Family Life Educator.
If Kaye’s life were a book it would be titled From Grief to Gratitude.
The title of the current chapter of Kaye’s life would be “In the Wilderness.”
Kaye was “thrown” into the recovery process in the unfolding of a 5-year divorce after a 27-year “Christian” marriage that was filled with addiction.
Kaye has started several recovery groups focused on discipleship in Pasadena, Chula Vista, and Coronado (San Diego).
Kaye’s ministry, Vital Connections, is focused on helping people stay “vitally connected” to God and others through a Twelve Step process.
The Twelve steps are action, not concepts or principles.
- Steps 1-3: Deal with one’s relationship with God.
- Steps 4-6: Deal with looking at one’s inner self.
- Steps 7-9: Focus on confession and making amends with others.
- Steps 10-12: Deal with strengthening what has been accomplished in the first nine steps.
The Twelve Steps aren’t about giving people information (about God, about spirituality, about theology, etc.), but about transformation. Information is good, but information alone doesn’t lead to transformation.
- Addictive thinking is black or white, all or nothing. She lived this kind of thinking out in her marriage. She “submitted” to her husband in a way that was extremely unhealthy.
- It is frustrating to try to introduce this kind of deep spirituality into the church. Most churches just want information or programs.
- Churches generally don’t allow for transparency and honesty when it comes to our sin and brokenness.
- Kaye Schneider’s Vital Connections groups are open groups, meaning anyone can join at any time.
- Kaye Schneider's website is www.lydiacompany.com.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Kaye Schneider
- Vital Connections website: https://www.lydiacompany.com/
- E-mail: kaye@lydiacompany.com
A Spiritual Kindergarten: Christian Perspectives on the Twelve Steps, by Dale Ryan
- National Association for Christian Recovery website: https://www.nacr.org/

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10. Meeting God in the Darkest Places, Sermon on Jonah 2:1-10 Oct 28, 2018

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This sermon on Jonah 2:1-10 explores God's presence with us in our darkest places.
What do we do when we find ourselves in times of great suffering? What do we do when we feel like we’re in a pit? When we feel like we’re inside the belly of a fish–a place of darkness, hopelessness, and death? Jonah faced that same question and discovered the only thing he could do was surrender. And by surrendering in the midst of his suffering, In this sermon on Jonah 2, we learn that Jonah discovered that the worst place turned out to be the best place, because the worst place turned out to be the place where he met God.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Markus begins this sermon on Jonah 2 by sharing about giving up his Hollywood dream.
God “provided” a fish to swallow Jonah. The word, “provided,” could also be translated as “commissioned” or “appointed.” It is the same word used when a king commissioned an ambassador to carry out his will.
If there is a single word to capture Jonah’s state in Jonah 2, it would be the word “down.” Jonah is sinking deeper and deeper.
The sea in the ancient world represented chaos.
The people of Israel has very little experience on the sea.
Having been swallowed by the huge fish, Jonah finds himself in the worst possible place an Israelite could have imagined being. Yet, this is the place where he finally meets God.
The worst place Jonah could have imagined turned out to be the best place because it is the place where he had a deep, profound encounter with God.
Jonah discovers that the worst thing that ever happened to him is the best thing that ever happened to him.
Stories can be broadly categorized as comedies and tragedies. Jonah is a comedy because it is a story in which life wins, hope wins, joy wins.
In verse 8, Jonah says, “Those who cling to worthless idols turn away from God’s love for them.” Who is Jonah referring to? The Ninevites? The sailors? Or himself?
Jonah is most likely referring to himself as one who has clung to worthless idols.
In the belly of the fish, Jonah finally lets go of the idols to which he has been clinging—fear, anger, xenophobia. Now he is able to surrender to God and go where God is leading him.
Are you in a belly-of-the-fish experience now?
What idols are you clinging to?

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Under the Unpredictable Plant, by Eugene Peterson
- This book was a helpful resource in preparing this sermon.
We Are Not as Strong as We Think We Are, song by Rich Mullins
- A beautiful song reminding us of our frailty before God.

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9. The Four-Chapter Gospel, with Geoff Hsu, Executive Director of Flourish San Diego Oct 22, 2018

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Geoff Hsu knows that how we think about the Gospel affects everything else. It affects the way we think about God. It affects the way we relate to others. It affects our leadership.

What does the Gospel we believe tell us about God? About ourselves? About the world? What role does guilt and shame play in our understanding of the Gospel? How do forgiveness and grace fit into the Gospel we believe in? What does the Gospel say is my responsibility in regard to my relationship with God?

In this episode, Geoff Hsu, Executive Director of Flourish San Diego, helps us explore what the Gospel is and what it means for the way we live.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Geoff Hsu says the gospel is good news not only because we are saved out of the world for our sake, but much more because we are saved into the world for its sake.
A Four-Chapter Gospel allows us to be able to understand how our entire lives matter and how we can participate in God’s redemptive work.
The four chapters of the Four-Chapter Gospel are: 1) Creation, 2) Fall, 3) Redemption, and 4) Restoration.
The Two-Chapter Gospel only focuses on Fall and Redemption. It gives us a reason to be saved out of the world for our sake, but it doesn’t give us a reason to be saved into the world for its sake.
Flourish San Diego wants to discover ways to engage culture in ways that are redemptive. Not reacting by fortifying ourselves against the culture, or trying to dominate the culture, or even by blending in and accommodating it.
Geoff Hsu shares about his own transformation from thinking of the Gospel as two chapters to recognizing the Gospel as four chapters.
Geoff Hsu noticed that he was helping people to act Christianly, but he was not actually helping them to become like Christ.
The way Geoff Hsu knew he was learning to better understand the Gospel was in the way he was learning how to repent. In the past, when he sinned he would feel terribly guilty about it, as though he needed to beat himself up until he was worthy enough to come back into the Lord’s presence. But then he learned that he was already forgiven and it wasn’t up to him to decide when he was worthy enough to come back into God’s presence.
Flourish San Diego commissioned a set of fine art photographs that capture the four chapters of the Gospel. Those photographs can be viewed and purchased HERE.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Flourish San Diego
- Homepage: https://flourishsandiego.org/
- Twitter: @FlourishSD
Geoff Hsu
- E-mail: geoff@flourishsandiego.org
To view the Four-Chapter Gospel fine art photographs commissioned by Flourish San Diego, CLICK HERE.
- You can also purchase prints ON THIS PAGE.

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8. Thoughtfulness Matters, with Micah Lunsford Oct 15, 2018

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Micah Lunsford believes that when it comes to following Jesus, thoughtfulness matters. It matters because God wants more than just our actions. God wants our hearts and our minds, too. In this episode, Micah Lunsford, the Founding Director of Resonance Journal, shares about why thoughtfulness and contemplation are so important for the spiritual life.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Micah Lunsford grew up the son of a Nazarene pastor.
Micah describes how he founded Resonance Journal.
After graduating from Fuller Theological Seminary, Micah Lunsford got involved in a ministry that didn’t give him much time for thoughtful theological reflection. Micah expressed his frustrations to God and got an answer—“You can do more to be thoughtfully reflective.”
It was around this time that Micah caught the vision for Resonance Journal.
Resonance Journal was meant to be an ecumenical place for deep conversation, crossing traditional theological boundaries.
Resonance Journal is intended to be more than a publication; it is meant to be a community.
Micah Lunsford feels passionate about engaging our minds as disciples of Christ.
The themes of the articles in Resonance Journal are presented in each issue in a chiastic structure: worship, scripture, witness, tradition, crux, tradition, witness, scripture, worship.
Each issue of Resonance Journal focuses on a specific theme. Recent themes include the Trinity, Christianity in Culture, the Sabbath, encountering the stranger, and so forth.
Thoughtful spiritual reflection is vital for spiritual leadership because we can only give what we have.
The digital subscription to Resonance Journal is entirely free. You subscribe at www.theologicalresonance.com/subscribe.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Resonance Journal
- Homepage: https://theologicalresonance.com/
- Subscribe: https://theologicalresonance.com/subscribe/
- Twitter: @resonantpoints
Fuller Theological Seminary
- Website: https://www.fuller.edu/

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7. Made for More, with Bobby Benavides Oct 08, 2018

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When Bobby Benavides, a California native, went on a short-term mission trip to rural West Virginia in 2003, he never imagined God would call him to stay and serve there for the next fifteen years. I should say, fifteen years and counting! Bobby has no plans to leave any time soon. It was through this experience that Bobby discovered the profound importance of listening to God and living into one’s unique calling. A few years ago, Bobby Benavides wrote Made for More, a book designed to help millennials live the life they were created to live. In this interview, Bobby shares about his call to serve in West Virginia and why we each need to discover that we were “Made for More.”

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Bobby Benavides shares about planting his church, New Community Elkins.
Bobby moved from Glendora, California (a suburb of Los Angeles), to rural West Virginia.
Initially, Bobby didn’t want to stay in West Virginia, but it eventually became clear that this was where God wanted him to serve.
A key moment that strengthened Bobby’s sense of call to West Virginia was a conversation with a teenage boy who told him, “You’re the first person to ever sit down and want to hear my story.
In West Virginia, one has to be known in order to be trusted. This comes from a history in which coal companies came in with big promises and lots of money, but eventually left, leaving the community with nothing. As a result, local people are slow to trust outsiders.
Bobby Benavides wrote Made for More because he encountered a lot of young people who had lots of questions about their purpose in life.
We have profound beauty within us. God sees the beauty through our brokenness, even when we can’t.
If we’re so focused on what’s to come, we lose what’s right in front of us.
God says we need to be fully present where we are now.
“Where you are now is your mission field.”
“The mission field is everywhere.”
Bobby Benavides shares a story about a young woman who read Made for More and was surprised that he talked about Lil Wayne in a positive light! She also told him she now has a strengthened identity in Christ and wants to serve him.
Remember whose you are. Your congregation doesn’t own you. The church building doesn’t own you. Your job doesn’t own you. Rest in the fact that you are God’s.
“Let God be God and you be his child.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Bobby Benavides
- Website: https://bobbybenavides.me/
- Twitter: @BobBen74
- Instagram: bobby_benavides
Made for More: A Journey of Discovery and Purpose
- Order on Bobby’s website
- Order from Amazon

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6. From Tragedy to Comic Books, with Mario DeMatteo Oct 01, 2018

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Mario DeMatteo’s life was turned upside down in more ways than one when he suddenly became a quadriplegic. It was tragedy, to be sure. But it turned out to be the thing that drew Mario closer to God and set his life on a new trajectory publishing graphic novels that tell the stories of the scriptures in a sci-fi universe. Listen as Mario DeMatteo shares about how God used his tragedy then and is using his new calling now.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Mario DeMatteo had a tragic accident in which he dove into a shallow swimming pool and became a quadriplegic.
While in the hospital, a friend brought him a Silver Surfer comic book, at which point he fell in love with comics.
It was as a result of his accident that Mario grew in his relationship with Jesus.
Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl was a formative book that Mario read in the early months after his accident.
Mario DeMatteo describes how he went from merely loving comic books to creating his own graphic novel, a science fiction version of the Apostle Paul.
Mario had to invest his own money into this project. Even though some said he should put his money into other more “spiritual” projects, he felt called to invest in his graphic novel.
Mario has gotten wonderful feedback from people who have purchased his graphic novel.
People sometimes push back on the sci-fi aspect of the graphic novel.
Mario DeMatteo is now working on a second graphic novel titled Peter, which focuses on the life of Jesus through Peter’s eyes.
Mario shares about his rhythms and practices that keep him close to Jesus.
After reading The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron, Mario began journaling first thing in the morning.
You can order Mario DeMatteo’s graphic novel at his website, http://www.beartruthcollection.com

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Mario DeMatteo
- Website: https://beartruthcollective.com/
- Twitter: @beartruthcomics
- Short video about Mario
“Paul: The Apostle” Graphic Novel
- Youtube Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTBYb3UvVCA
- To order online: https://beartruthcollective.com/products/paul
Books mentioned
- Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
- The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron

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5. Stewardship, Service, and Spoken Word, with Jim Mullins Sep 24, 2018

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Jim Mullins is the Pastor of Theological and Vocational Formation at Redemption Church in Tempe, AZ. He’s also the Director of the Faith, Work, and Rest Initiative of the Surge Network in the Phoenix area. But what you really need to know about Jim is that he cares about people. In this episode, Jim Mullins talks about his rich theology of God’s mission and how we are called to participate in God’s mission by loving our neighbors.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Jim Mullins leads the Faith, Work, and Rest Initiative of the Surge Network in the Phoenix area.
The mission of God is God’s mission.
God is on a mission to restore all that was lost in the fall, including the spiritual, physical, and social aspects of life that have been corrupted and broken by sin and its effects.
There are three primary ways we participate in God’s mission:
- Stewardship – We display the glory of the Father through the work of our hands.
- Service – We display the love of Christ by washing the feet of the world.
- Spoken Word – We display the power of the Spirit by opening our mouths.
In stewardship, we reflect God’s character in the ordinary stuff of life.
Service is the call to sacrificially love the other.
In spoken word, we verbally proclaim the good news of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
In evangelism, we often treat the gospel like Ikea furniture–getting it out quickly and cheaply to as many people as possible–rather than as a “hand-crafted” display of God’s love and beauty.
Jim Mullins shares his spiritual journey, his ministry in Turkey, and how his understanding of the gospel grew through his ministry.
When we start to ask the question, “How?” we’ve started to ask the question of mission.
- How do I love God with all that I have?
- How do I love my neighbor as myself?
- As we ask these questions, we are functionally asking how we can participate in God’s mission?

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jim Mullins
- Twitter: @jimdmullins3
Faith, Work, and Rest Podcast
- http://surgenetwork.com/start-faith-work-rest/
Surge Network
- Website: http://surgenetwork.com/who-we-are/
- Twitter: @SurgeNetwork
Redemption Church, Tempe
- Website: http://tempe.redemptionaz.com/
- Twitter: @redemptionTEM

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4. The Gospel According to Two Shirts, with Jason Coker Sep 17, 2018

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Jason Coker, pastor of First Christian Church in Oceanside, California, shares about a ministry called Two Shirts. Even though it doesn’t exist anymore, it beautifully captures what God wants to do in the world—healing and wholeness for the whole world. Jason and I discuss this very creative ministry, Jason’s journey of discovering the gospel in a much bigger way than he had ever understood it before, and what it’s like to serve a congregation that includes homeless brothers and sisters.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Brief description of the Oceanside, CA, community where Jason Coker serves as the lead pastor of First Christian Church.
Jason shares how he came up with the idea for the Two Shirts ministry. It started in Columbus, OH.
The Two Shirts concept is based on John the Baptist’s words in Luke 3:11: “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
Jason Coker was convicted by the idea that the gospel is more than an idea. The gospel must be embodied.
Two Shirts was a website where you could give things away or ask for something you need.
An amazing story of a woman who posted that she needed a grandmother for her children.
Unfortunately, Two Shirts never really took off in Southern California. It was hard to build the critical mass.
Jason describes the gospel he grew up with–a gospel that is more about disembodied doctrines and ideas.
Jason Coker came to the understanding that the gospel is about the restoration of all things and the fulfillment of shalom.
First Christian Church in Oceanside includes homeless people in their congregation.
“Embodying the gospel means to serve the least in our midst.”
Someone described Jason’s church as having “quite the cast of characters.”
FCC’s new mission statement: “To make disciples for the sake of the city who practice radical hospitality, create new expressions of faith, and minister wholeness in a fragmented world.”
Jason Coker describes the “ordinariness” of his work as a pastor. The majority of the church’s work is “unglamorous.”

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Jason Coker
- Twitter: @jasonacoker
First Christian Church Oceanside
- Website: https://fccoceanside.org/
- Twitter: @fccoceanside
Disciples of Christ denomination
- Website: https://disciples.org/

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
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Select the number of stars and write your review.
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Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

3. The Fourfold Nature of Shalom Sep 10, 2018

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The fourfold nature of shalom involves four key relationships--our relationship with God, with each other, with the created order, and within ourselves.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

I was involved in Campus Crusade for Christ when I was in college. When I learned to share the Four Spiritual Laws, I was told, “Don’t focus on abundant life. Just focus on eternal life.”
When God created the world, it was in a state of shalom.
Shalom refers to a comprehensive state of well-being that touches every aspect of life.
When God created the world, the world experienced the fourfold nature of shalom:
- Between God and people
- Between people and each other
- Within human beings themselves–a kind of inner shalom
- Between human beings and the creation
But shalom was broken in all four of these ways. The fourfold nature of shalom was broken:
- Between God and people
  - Adam and Eve hid from God
- Between people and each other
  - They saw their nakedness and no longer felt safe with each other
- Within human beings themselves
  - They now felt shame
- Between human beings and the creation
  - Childbirth would be painful and the earth would no longer produce without toil
God wants to restore shalom in all four of these ways
- Between God and people
  - Jesus sacrifice makes restoration of shalom with God possible
- Between people and each other
  - No more war, violence, racism, classism, injustice, poverty, etc.
- Within human beings themselves
  - God wants to heal our shame
- Between human beings and creation
  - Caring for creation is not a liberal or conservative thing; it’s a matter of stewardship
We are called to participate with God in God’s mission of shalom. We are called to join God in restoring the fourfold nature of shalom.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Campus Crusade for Christ
- Website: https://www.cru.org/
- Twitter: @crutweets
Four Spiritual Laws
Flourish San Diego
- Website: https://flourishsandiego.org/
- Twitter: @FlourishSD
Amy Sherman discusses the fourfold nature of shalom in her book, Kingdom Calling

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

2. What is the Mission of God? Sep 10, 2018

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What is the mission of God? As we read the scriptures, we discover a word that captures what God is working to bring about. That word is shalom–a comprehensive sense of well-being that touches every aspect of life. God wants to bring healing and wholeness to the whole world in every way. This is the mission of God that we are invited to join.

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

Starting new programs or ministries in my church used to focus on the question, “How will this benefit or grow our church?”
The Genesis creation story helps us understand what God wants to accomplish in the world.
There is a word that captures the goodness of creation in Genesis 1 and 2–shalom.
Shalom has to do with wholeness and completeness. Shalom refers to a comprehensive state of well-being that touches every aspect of life.
God gave human beings “dominion” (Genesis 2:28).
Dominion is not the same thing as “domination.”
Domination has to do with power and exploitation. Dominion has to do with stewardship–taking care of something that has been entrusted to us.
Jesus lived a life of shalom. He restored shalom in people’s lives and in the world.
Shalom was broken when sin became part of our story.
Jesus restored shalom, not through domination, but through surrender and sacrifice.
Revelation 21:1-5 paints a picture of the world when shalom has been restored. This is what God is working toward.
The mission of God is the healing and restoration of the whole world.
The mission of the church is the same as the mission of God–to restore shalom to the world.
Churches need to ask themselves this question: Whose mission are we on?

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Here are a couple of related posts that I wrote for the Flourish San Diego blog…

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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spiritual-life-and-leadership/id1435252632

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Links to Amazon are affiliate links. If you make a purchase through any of these links, I’ll receive a small commission–which will help pay for the Spiritual Life and Leadership podcast!

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

1. Why 'Spiritual Life and Leadership'? Aug 30, 2018

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Why am I calling this podcast Spiritual Life and Leadership? Because the church needs leaders whose lives are characterized by a life of deep spirituality and union with Jesus. Yes, leadership techniques are valuable and church growth strategies can be helpful. But if those who are called to lead God’s people into God’s mission are not deeply connected to the heart of Jesus, the church and the world God loves will both suffer.
Welcome to Spiritual Life and Leadership!

THIS EPISODE’S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

My motives for wanting my church to grow used to have a lot to do with wanting to look successful.
I introduce myself–background, education, interests, family, etc.
I’m a Star Wars fan! A real one–since way back in the day…
I love the church. I don’t love everything about the church. But I love the church.
Even with all its imperfections and, at times, ugliness, the church is the beautiful Bride of Christ.
This podcast comes in large part out of my love for the church.
My desire is for the church to experience the healing and wholeness that God wants for the world.
A person's spiritual life and leadership are not ends in themselves.
We don’t have a daily quiet time for the sake of having a daily quiet time.
I wanted to be a great leader so that my church would be successful–get bigger, have more programs, higher attendance and bigger budget.
Leadership matters so that we can help our churches, our people, participate in the mission of God.
The spiritual life matters because it shapes the way we lead and who we are as leaders.
Spiritual leadership and leadership requires a deep and growing union with God.
I share the kinds of things we will be talking about on this podcast.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

Flourish San Diego
- Website: https://flourishsandiego.org/
- Twitter: @FlourishSD
Fuller Theological Seminary
- Website: https://www.fuller.edu/
- Twitter: @fullerseminary
Alan Roxburgh
- Twitter: @alanjroxburgh
Mark Lau Branson
- Twitter: @marklaubranson
Emotionally Healthy Spirituality
- Website: https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/
- Twitter: @EHDiscipleship
Pete Scazzero
- Twitter: @petescazzero

Instructions to leave a review of Spiritual Life and Leadership:

Click HERE.
Click on the link that says, "Listen on Apple Podcasts."
In the window that opens, click the button that says, "Open Link." This will open iTunes.
To the right of the Spiritual Life and Leadership logo, click "Ratings and Reviews."
Under the heading, "Customer Reviews," click on the button that says, "Write a Review."
Select the number of stars and write your review.
Click submit.

I'd be so grateful if you

Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

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