So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Timestamps

0:00 Intro

2:53 Moody v. NetChoice and NetChoice v. Paxton

31:02 NRA v. Vullo

46:57 Murthy v. Missouri

1:06:04 Gonzales v. Trevino

1:17:58 Vidal v. Elster

1:26:04 O’Connor-Ratcliff v. Garnier and Lindke v. Freed

1:34:00 Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo (the Chevron deference case)

1:37:26 Free Speech Coalition v. Paxton (forthcoming SCOTUS case)

1:38:30 Outro

Ep. 218: A warning label on social media? Jun 25, 2024

There is a movement afoot to restrict young people’s access to social media and pornography.

Critics of social media and online porn argue that they can be harmful to minors, and states across the country are taking up the cause, considering laws that would impose age-verification, curfews, parental opt-ins, and other restrictions.

Meanwhile, critics of the critics argue that the evidence of harm isn’t so conclusive and that many of the proposed restrictions violate core civil liberties such as privacy and free speech.

So, who’s right?

Clare Morell is a senior policy analyst at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and the author of the forthcoming book, “The Tech Exit: A Manifesto for Freeing Our Kids.” Ari Cohn is free speech counsel at TechFreedom, a technology think tank.

Timestamps

0:00 Intro

2:17 The alleged harms of social media

11:31 Just another technological moral panic?

25:49 How is internet access currently restricted for minors?

41:17 The age verification problem

1:00:27 Assessing the First Amendment problems

1:07:21 Voluntary measures parents can take

1:25:30 Outro

Shownotes

“The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness” by Jonathan Haidt

“Surgeon General: Why I’m Calling for a Warning Label on Social Media Platforms” by Vivek H. Murthy

Ep. 217: ‘Defending pornography’ Jun 20, 2024

It is said that censorship is the strongest drive in human nature — with sex being a weak second.

But what happens when these two primordial drives clash? Does censorship or sex win out?

Nadine Strossen is a professor emerita at New York Law School, a former president of the ACLU, and a senior fellow at FIRE. She is also the author of “Defending Pornography: Free Speech, Sex, and the Fight for Women’s Rights.” First released in 1995, the book was reissued this year with a new preface.

Mary Anne Franks is a law professor at George Washington University and the president and legislative and tech policy director of the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. She is the author of “The Cult of the Constitution: Our Deadly Devotion to Guns and Free Speech” and the forthcoming “Fearless Speech: Breaking Free from the First Amendment.”

Show Notes:

Packingham v. North Carolina (2017)

Timestamps

0:00 Intro

2:17 Defining pornography

7:20 Is porn protected by the First Amendment?

11:10 Revenge porn

22:05 Origins of “Defending Pornography”

25:06 Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon

29:20 Can porn be consensual?

35:02 Dworkin/MacKinnon model legislation

52:20 Porn in Canada

56:07 Is it possible to ban porn?

1:03:26 College professor’s porn hobby

1:12:39 Outro

Ep. 216: Section 230 and online content moderation Jun 06, 2024

Did 26 words from an American law passed in 1996 create the internet?

Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act says that interactive websites and applications cannot be held legally liable for the content posted on their sites by their users. Without the law, it’s likely Facebook, Amazon, Reddit, Yelp, and X wouldn’t exist — at least not in their current form. But some say the law shields large tech companies from liability for enabling, or even amplifying, harmful content.

On today’s show, we discuss Section 230, recent efforts to reform it, and new proposals for content moderation on the internet.

Marshall Van Alstyne is a professor of information systems at Boston University.

Robert Corn-Revere is FIRE’s chief counsel.

Timestamps

0:00 Intro 3:52 The origins of Section 230? 6:40 Section 230’s “forgotten provision” 13:29 User vs. platform control over moderation 23:24 Harms allegedly enabled by Section 230 40:17 Solutions 46:03 Private market for moderation 1:02:42 Case study: Hunter Biden laptop story 1:09:19 “Duty of care” standard 1:17:49 The future of Section 230 1:20:35 Outro

Show Notes

- Show Transcript

- Hearing on a Legislative Proposal to Sunset Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (May 22. 2024)

- “Platform Revolution” by Marshall Van Alstyne

- “The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder” by Robert Corn-Revere

- “Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech” by Mike Masnick

- “Sunset of Section 230 Would Force Big Tech’s Hand” By Cathy McMorris Rodgers and Frank Pallone Jr.

- “Buy This Legislation or We’ll Kill the Internet” By Christopher Cox and Ron Wyden

- “Free Speech, Platforms & The Fake News Problem” (2021) by Marshall Van Alstyne

- “Free Speech and the Fake News Problem” (2023) by Marshall Van Alstyne

- “It’s Time to Update Section 230” by Michael D. Smith and Marshall Van Alstyne

“Now It's Harvard Business Review Getting Section 230 Very, Very Wrong” by Mike Masnick

Ep. 215: ‘Private Censorship’ with J.P. Messina May 21, 2024

The First Amendment forbids government censorship. Private institutions, on the other hand, are generally free to restrict speech.

How should we think about private censorship and its role within a liberal society?

On today’s episode, we’re joined by J.P. Messina, an assistant professor in the philosophy department at Purdue University and the author of the new book, “Private Censorship.”

Also on the show is Aaron Terr, FIRE’s director of public advocacy.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

3:10 The origin story of “Private Censorship”

8:29 How does FIRE figure out what to weigh in on?

12:04 Examples of private censorship

18:24 Regulating speech at work

22:21 Regulating speech on social media platforms

30:09 Is social media essentially a public utility?

35:50 Are internet service providers essentially public utilities?

44:43 Social media vs. ISPs

51:02 Censorship on search engines

59:47 Defining illiberalism outside of government censorship

1:16:06 Outro

Show Notes

Episode transcript

Cloudflare’s announcement regarding the Daily Stormer

Ep. 214: The Antisemitism Awareness Act May 07, 2024

On May 1, the U.S. House of Representatives passed the Antisemitism Awareness Act by a vote of 320 to 91. Proponents of the law say it is necessary to address anti-Semitic discrimination on college campuses. Opponents argue it threatens free speech.

Who’s right?

Kenneth Stern was the lead drafter of the definition of anti-Semitism used in the act. But he said the definition was never meant to punish speech. Rather, it was drafted to help data collectors write reports.

Stern is the director of the Bard Center for the Study of Hate. His most recent book is titled, “The Conflict Over the Conflict: The Israel/Palestine Campus Debate.”

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

04:06 Introducing Ken Stern

7:59 Can hate speech codes work?

11:13 Off-campus hate speech codes

13:33 Drafting the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition

21:53 How should administrators judge anti-Semitism without the IHRA definition?

27:29 Is there a rise in unlawful discrimination on campuses today?

40:20 Opposition to the Antisemitism Awareness Act

43:10 Defenses of the Antisemitism Awareness Act

51:34 Enshrinement of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in state laws

53:57 Is the IHRA definition internally consistent?

59:21 How will the Senate vote?

1:01:16 Outro

Show Notes

IHRA definition of anti-Semitism

The Antisemitism Awareness Act

Ep. 213: Campus unrest - live webinar Apr 30, 2024

Host Nico Perrino joins his FIRE colleagues Will Creeley and Alex Morey to answer questions about the recent campus unrest and its First Amendment implications.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

0:41 What is FIRE?/campus unrest

5:44 What are the basic First Amendment principles for campus protest?

11:30 Student encampments

18:09 Exceptions to the First Amendment

29:01 Can administrators limit access to non-students/faculty?

34:13 Denying recognition to Students for Justice in Palestine

36:26 Were protesters at UT Austin doing anything illegal?

40:54 The USC valedictorian

45:09 What does “objectively offensive” mean? / Does Davis apply to colleges?

46:55 Is it illegal to protest too loudly?

50:03 What options do colleges have to moderate/address hate speech?

54:20 Does calling for genocide constitute bullying/harassment?

59:09 Wrapping up on the situation

Show Notes

“USC canceling valedictorian’s commencement speech looks like calculated censorship,” Alex Morey

“Emerson College: Conservative Student Group Investigated for Distributing ‘China Kinda Sus’ Stickers,” FIRE’s case files

“HATE: Why We Should Resist it With Free Speech, Not Censorship,” Nadine Strossen

“Defending My Enemy: American Nazis, the Skokie Case, and the Risks of Freedom,” Aryeh Neier (pdf)

“David Goldberger, lead attorney in ‘the Skokie case,’” “So to Speak” Ep. 118

Show Notes Scotland’s “Hate Crime and Public Order Act” Matal v. Tam (2017) Snyder v. Phelps (2011) Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (2011) United States v. Stevens (2010) Virginia v. Black (2003) R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992) National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie (1977) Police Department of Chicago v. Mosley (1972) Beauharnais v. Illinois (1952) Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942) “HATE: Why We Should Resist it With Free Speech, Not Censorship” by Nadine Strossen

Ep. 212: Should the First Amendment protect hate speech? Apr 25, 2024

In America, hate speech is generally protected by the First Amendment.

But should it be?

Today’s guest is out with a new book, “Hate Speech is Not Free: The Case Against First Amendment Protection.”

W. Wat Hopkins is emeritus professor of communication at Virginia Tech, where he taught communication law and cyberspace law.

Transcript of Interview: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-should-first-amendment-protect-hate-speech

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction 5:34 Why write about hate speech?8:50 Has the Supreme Court ruled on hate speech? 13:56 What speech falls outside First Amendment protection? 16:44 The history of the First Amendment 20:00 Fighting words and Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942) 24:00 How does the Supreme Court determine what speech is protected? 35:24 Defining hate speech 38:54 Debating the value of hate speech 44:02 Defining hate speech (again) 50:30 Abuses of hate speech codes 1:00:10 Skokie 1:02:39 Current Supreme Court and hate speech 1:06:00 Outro

Ep. 211: Generational differences and civil liberties with Neil Howe Apr 11, 2024

In late 2013, some of us at FIRE started noticing a change on college campuses. Students, who were previously the strongest constituency for free speech on campus, were turning against free speech. They began appealing to administrators more frequently for protection from different speakers and using the language of trauma and safety to justify censorship.

What changed? Neil Howe may have an answer. He is a historian, economist, and demographer who speaks frequently on generational change. His most recent book, “The Fourth Turning is Here,” was published last year. Howe argues that history has seasonal rhythms of growth, maturation, entropy, and rebirth and that different generations take on different attributes reflecting their place in the cycle.

Joining Howe and host Nico Perrino for the conversation is FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, co-author of “The Canceling of the American Mind."

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

6:10 Neil’s intent with his book, “Generations”

13:12 Pattern in American history

17:08 The nomad archetype

25:00 Covid and the younger generation

27:28 Do people shape events?

35:35 Gen-Xers and Millennials

41:45 The Fourth Turning

50:24 William James’ “The Moral Equivalent of War”

57:08 Are Gen-Z actually Millennials?

58:10 Dominant generations

01:06:40 How do generational cycles impact civil liberties?

01:10:57 Summary of Millennials

01:18:15 Peaceful periods lead to greater inequality

1:19:16 Outro

Show Notes

Neil Howe’s Substack, “Demography Unplugged”

Greg Lukianoff’s Substack, “The Eternally Radical Idea”

Ep. 210: The First Amendment at the Supreme Court Mar 29, 2024

“I have never seen a Supreme Court term that is as consequential as this one is going to be,” said FIRE Chief Counsel Bob Corn-Revere, previewing this term’s First Amendment cases.

On today’s show, we analyze the oral arguments in four of those cases: NRA v. Vullo, Murthy v. Missouri (formerly Missouri v. Biden), Moody v. NetChoice, LLC, and NetChoice, LLC, v. Paxton.

We also discuss the court’s decision in two cases involving government officials blocking their critics on social media.

Joining the show are Corn-Revere, FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London, and FIRE Director of Public Advocacy Aaron Terr.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

3:29 NRA v. Vullo

26:05 Murthy v. Missouri

50:41 Netchoice cases

1:11:26 Lindke v. Freed and O’Connor-Ratcliff v. Garnier

1:21:24 Outro

Show Notes

NRA v. Vullo oral argument transcript

Bantam Books, Inc. et. al v Sullivan et al. (1963)

Murthy v. Missouri oral argument transcript

Moody v. NetChoice, LLC oral argument transcript

NetChoice, LLC v. Paxton oral argument transcript

Lindke v. Freed and O’Connor-Ratcliff v. Garnier decisions

‘So to Speak’ on Substack

Ep. 209: ‘Is money speech?’ with Robert Breedlove Mar 25, 2024

There is a recurring debate in the free speech community regarding whether money is speech.

Bitcoin-focused entrepreneur, writer, and philosopher Robert Breedlove joins us today to help resolve the debate. Describing money as “the language of human action,” Robert makes the case that money, like the cryptocurrency Bitcoin, is information and should be free from government regulation and manipulation. During this longer-than-usual episode, Robert and Nico discuss everything from Keynesian economics and 3D-printed firearms to the Chinese Communist Party.

Robert is the host of the popular podcast, “The ‘What is Money?’ Show,” which dives into the nature of money by asking guests one simple question: What is money? In 2020, he co-authored the book, “Thank God for Bitcoin: The Creation, Corruption and Redemption of Money.”

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

3:56 Robert’s background

19:21 What is Austrian economics?

24:23 Is money speech?

44:48 Can money express irrational things?

51:59 Is access to perfect information always a good thing?

1:05:17 Bitcoin and anonymity

1:18:14 Prediction markets

1:31:49 Is code speech?

1:39:59 Is economic freedom more fundamental than freedom of speech?

1:49:13 Regulating bitcoin

1:55:16 Bitcoin ETFs

1:57:03 Rapid-fire Bitcoin questions

2:03:15 Does more access to information make the world a better place?

2:06:53 Outro

Show Notes

“The ‘What is Money?’ Show”

“The Creature from Jekyll Island” by G Edward Griffin

“The Bitcoin Standard” by Saifedean Ammous

“The Use of Knowledge in Society” by Friedrich Hayek

“The Logic of Scientific Discovery” by Karl Popper

“Areopagitica” by John Milton

Statement by Russian prison service on Alexei Navalny’s death

Ep. 208: Dodging censorship in Russia Mar 14, 2024

On today’s episode, we discuss Alexei Navalny’s death, Vladimir Putin, censorship in Russia, and Samizdat Online, an anti-censorship platform that grants users living under authoritarian regimes access to news and other censored content. Yevgeny “Genia” Simkin is the co-founder of Samizdat Online and Stanislav “Stas” Kucher is its chief content officer.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

2:25 Alexei Navalny

8:53 The state of Russian opposition

20:48 The origins of Samizdat Online

28:17 How does Samizdat Online circumvent censorship?

35:16 Could Yevgeny Prigozhin have overthrown Putin?

41:03 The progression of Putin’s regime

58:08 How can people help?

59:56 Outro

Show notes

The Anti-Corruption Foundation (nonprofit established by Alexei Navalny)

Samizdat Online

“Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible” by Peter Pomerantsev

Ep. 157: Former BBC bureau chief Konstantin Eggert and what you need to know about censorship in Russia

Past related episodes

Ep. 108: A history of (dis)information wars in the Soviet Union and beyond

Ep. 156: What Russians don’t know about the war in Ukraine

Ep. 207 Free speech news: NetChoice, Taylor Swift, October 7, and Satan Feb 29, 2024

On today’s free speech news roundup, we discuss the recent NetChoice oral argument, Taylor Swift, doxxing, October 7 fallout on campus, and Satan in Iowa.

Joining us on the show are Alex Morey, FIRE director of Campus Rights Advocacy; Aaron Terr, director of Public Advocacy; and Ronnie London, our general counsel.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

0:44 NetChoice oral arguments

19:39 Taylor Swift cease and desist letter

29:20 Publishing unlawfully obtained information

39:28 Harvard and doxxing

47:44 Princeton no contact orders

55:52 Columbia law denies recognition to Law Students Against Antisemitism

1:02:38 Columbia adopts Kalven Report

1:06:06 Indiana University art exhibit canceled, professor suspended

1:14:55 Satan in Iowa

1:21:59 Outro

Show Notes

“So to Speak” 2023-24 Supreme Court Preview (contains discussion of NetChoice cases)

Correspondence between Taylor Swift and Jack Sweeney’s attorneys

Bartnicki v. Vopper (2001)

Princeton no contact order

Columbia university grants recognition to Law Students Against Antisemitism

IHRA definition of anti-Semitism

List of universities that have adopted the Kalven Report

Indiana University art exhibit story

Indiana University professor suspended for improper reservation

Iowa Satanism bill

Shurtleff v. Boston (2022)

“So to Speak”: Substack

Atlantic profile by Jamie Kirchick

Ep. 206: CJ Hopkins compared modern Germany to Nazi Germany. Now he’s standing trial. Feb 15, 2024

J Hopkins is an American playwright, novelist, and political satirist. He moved to Germany in 2004. He publishes a self-titled blog on Substack and is the editor of Consent Factory Publishing.

CJ’s most recent book, “The Rise of the New Normal Reich,” draws a parallel between Nazi Germany and the response to the COVID-19 pandemic. In August 2022, it was banned on Amazon in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands. In the months that followed, CJ was charged by German authorities with violating a section of the German penal code that prohibits “disseminating information, the intention of which is to further the aims of a former National-Socialist organization [the Nazis].” He was recently acquitted, but the prosecutor chose to appeal the decision.

In the coming months, CJ will stand trial — again — for a crime he claims he didn’t commit and for which he has already been acquitted.

**We are launching on Substack this week! Nothing will change for our listeners. It’s just another way to support the podcast and FIRE. Premium subscribers will receive a FIRE membership and access to our new monthly “Members Only” Zoom chats, where we will discuss free speech news and happenings at FIRE. Members will also be able to ask Nico and other FIRE staffers questions.**

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

2:58 Who is CJ Hopkins?

9:35 CJ moves to Germany

15:02 CJ’s work since 2004

18:23 Berlin in 2020

27:18 “The Rise of the New Normal Reich”

34:01 CJ’s book banned in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands

37:05 German investigation

47:26 German sensitivities to Nazism

50:17 Why didn’t CJ just pay the fine?

54:03 CJ goes to trial

1:03:29 Double-jeopardy / prosecutorial appeal

1:08:49 Does CJ have regrets?

1:12:50 Conclusion

Show Notes

“Berlin Diary” by William L. Shirer

“The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William L. Shirer

“The Rise of the New Normal Reich” by CJ Hopkins

Consent Factory

“The Verdict” by CJ Hopkins, a Substack article about the conclusion of his first trial

“The Rise of the New Normal Reich: Consent Factory Essays, Vol. III, banned in Germany, Austria, and The Netherlands!” by CJ Hopkins, a Substack article about his book being banned on Amazon

FIRE’s guide to Section 230

Ep. 205: An anarchist’s perspective with Michael Malice Feb 01, 2024

Michael Malice is a self-described “anarchist without adjectives” and is the author of several books, including most recently “The White Pill: A Tale of Good and Evil.” He is also the host of the podcast, “YOUR WELCOME,” and the subject of the biographical comic book, “Ego & Hubris: The Michael Malice Story.”

Michael joins us today to explain why he hates the term “free speech,” and gives his thoughts on McCarthyism, anarchism, Twitter, and more.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

0:46 Who is Michael Malice?

6:45 What is an anarchist without adjectives?

7:26 The definition of anarchism/prominent anarchists

8:01 How do we have free speech in an anarchist society?

16:54 The McCarthy Era

20:38 Students for Justice in Palestine

24:57 Should we advocate for a culture of free speech?

30:44 “Hitman”

34:01 What is the core right under an anarchist system?

36:26 Elon, Twitter, and free speech

44:38 Emma Goldman and McCarthyism

55:27 Cancel culture

1:01:37 From Emma Goldman to Solzhenitsyn

1:05:31 What is it like to live under an authoritarian regime?

1:12:23 The war in Ukraine

1:15:24 Outro

Show Notes

“Dear Reader: The Unauthorized Autobiography of Kim Jong Il” by Michael Malice

“Hitman: A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors” by Rex Feral (pseud.)

“Khrushchev's Secret Speech” (Encyclopedia Britannica entry)

“My Disillusionment in Russia” by Emma Goldman

“Schenck v United States” (1919)

“The Anarchist Handbook” by Michael Malice

“The Gulag Archipelago” by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

“The New Right: A Journey to the Fringe of American Politics” by Michael Malice

Episode Transcript

Ep. 204: “Liar in a Crowded Theater” with Jeff Kosseff Jan 18, 2024

Jeff Kosseff is an associate professor of cybersecurity law in the United States Naval Academy’s Cyber Science Department. He is the author of four books including his most recent, “Liar in a Crowded Theater: Freedom of Speech in a World of Misinformation.” He has also written books about anonymous speech and Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

2:30 Jeff’s focus on the First Amendment

4:27 What is Section 230?

9:30 “Liar in a Crowded Theater”

16:27 What does the First Amendment say about lies?

19:35 What speech isn’t protected?

21:27 The Eminem case

27:33 The Dominion lawsuit

38:44 “The United States of Anonymous”

46:39 The impact of age verification laws

49:43 “The Twenty-Six Words that Created the Internet”

58:40 What’s next for Jeff?

1:01:35 Outro

Show Notes

Podcast Transcript

Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (2011)

Nikki Haley on social media anonymity

Schenck v. United States (1917)

“The Twenty-Six Words That Created the Internet” by Jeff Kosseff

NBC News: “Judge allows lawsuit against Snap from relatives of dead children to move forward”

“The United States of Anonymous: How the First Amendment Shaped Online Speech” by Jeff Kosseff

United States v. Alvarez (2012)

Elizabeth Nolan Brown’s 2018 Backpage profile

Ep. 203: ‘Undefeated’ with Coach Bill Courtney Jan 04, 2024

Bill Courtney is an American football coach, entrepreneur, author, and the subject of the academy award winning 2011 documentary “Undefeated,” which tells the story of Courtney leading a high school football team in an economically depressed area of Memphis, Tenn. to the playoffs.

Courtney is the host of the An Army of Normal Folks podcast, in which he shares stories of “ordinary people doing extraordinary things in and around their communities.” His book “Against the Grain: A Coach's Wisdom on Character, Faith, Family, and Love” was released in 2014.

In this episode, we discuss coaching, the surprise success of “Undefeated,” and how talking across lines of difference can heal a polarized America.

Chapters:

0:00 Introduction

2:25 Courtney’s background

5:41 The influence of coaches

16:50 How Courtney ended up at Manassas High School

18:50 Coaching in difficult environments

24:30 Bridging divides

30:12 Forgiveness and grace

35:57 Daryl Davis

42:45 The “death spiral” of division and polarization

53:15 What happened to Manassas after Courtney left?

54:00 How did the filmmakers find Manassas?

59:21 Was the documentary good for the school and the kids?

Show Transcript

Ep. 202: The backpage.com saga Dec 21, 2023

We’re joined today by Elizabeth Nolan Brown, Robert Corn-Revere, and Ronnie London to discuss the history and verdict of the Backpage trial.

Backpage.com was an online classified advertising service founded in 2004. As a chief competitor to Craigslist, Backpage allowed users to post ads to categories such as personals, automotive, rentals, jobs and — most notably — adult services. In 2018, the website domain was seized by the FBI and its executives were prosecuted under federal prostitution and money laundering statutes. The trial concluded this year, resulting in the acquittal and convictions of several key executives.

Some First Amendment advocates are concerned that the Backpage case represents a “slippery slope” for the prosecution of protected speech and the rights of websites that host user-generated content.

Elizabeth Nolan Brown is a senior editor at Reason Magazine, where she has written about the Backpage case in detail.

Robert Corn-Revere is FIRE’s chief counsel and a frequent guest of the show. Prior to joining FIRE, he represented Backpage in private practice.

Ronnie London is FIRE’s general counsel and another frequent guest of the show. He also represented Backpage when he was in private practice prior to joining FIRE.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction

06:55 The origins of Backpage

10:40 The significance of classified ads

14:52 Are escort ads protected?

19:07 Federal memos indicating Backpage fought child sex trafficking

23:19 Backpage content moderation

34:44 Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act

42:59 “De-banking” and NRA v. Vullo

52:24 The verdict

1:00:34 Could these convictions be overturned?

1:02:49 Outro

Show notes

Backpage.com url

2018 Backpage indictment

Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act

NRA v. Vullo

The Travel Act

Ep. 201: Crisis on Campus - X Space recording Dec 12, 2023

Nico and FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff appeared on an X Space to discuss the fallout from the recent congressional hearing on anti-Semitism involving Harvard President Claudine Gay, MIT President Sally Kornbluth, and former Penn President Liz Magill, who resigned last week following backlash over her testimony.

Timestamps

0:00- Introduction

1:53 - History of FIRE

5:40 - MIT/Harvard/Penn presidents’ testimony

11:35 - How speech codes are abused and conflict over the definition of genocide

14:05 - Penn “water buffalo” incident

16:20 - Will universities take the wrong lesson from these hearings?

21:25 - Double standards on campus

23:41 - Standards for hostile environment harassment, Title VI

26:43 - Is there a university that is currently handling the situation well?

31:19 - Institutional neutrality

38:29 - Guidance for donors

41:51 - The mission of the university

47:35 - College admissions and political litmus tests

51:20 - Faculty viewpoint diversity

57:17 - The path forward

Show notes

Show Transcript

The Canceling of the American Mind

Congressional hearing

FIRE’s College Free Speech Rankings

Kalven Report

“Mighty Ira”

Richard Berthold (“anyone who can blow up the pentagon has my vote”)

Student arrested for true threats at Cornell

Skokie case (neo Nazi protest in Illinois)

The Eternally Radical Idea (Greg’s Substack)

Penn “water buffalo” case

Ep. 200: The state of free speech Nov 30, 2023

We’re joined by First Amendment attorney Marc Randazza and British journalist Brendan O’Neill to discuss the state of free speech in the United States and Europe.

Randazza is a First Amendment attorney and the managing partner at Randazza Legal Group. He has represented controversial figures throughout his career, including Alex Jones, Mike Cernovich, Chuck Johnson, and founder of the neo-nazi website the Daily Stormer, Andrew Anglin.

O’Neill is a British author and journalist who served as editor of Spiked from 2007 to September 2021 and is currently its chief political writer. His book, “Heretic’s Manifesto,” was released in June. He last appeared on the podcast on October 20, 2016.

Timestamps

0:00 Introduction

6:35 Do lawyers want to defend their enemies any more?

13:00 The oldest form of intolerance

17:19 Israel/Hamas and double standards

32:28 Hate speech laws in Ireland

51:35 Censorship from internet intermediaries

52:33 Debanking and corporate censorship

55:36 PruneYard case

1:01:44 Social media and the internet

1:05:18 The Digital Services Act

Show Notes

Show Transcript

Brendan O’Neill at Oxford Union

EU Digital Services Act

Proposed Irish hate speech bill

PruneYard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980)

Ep. 199: Israel, Hamas, and censorship at home Nov 09, 2023

The FIRE team gets together to discuss the October 7 attacks in Israel and the resulting censorship on college campuses in the United States.

FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, Director of Campus Rights Advocacy Alex Morey, and General Counsel Ronnie London join host Nico Perrino for the conversation.

** We will conduct a listener survey starting Monday, Nov. 13. “So to Speak” listeners who subscribe to the show’s email list will receive an email with a link to the survey. If you are not an email subscriber, you can subscribe at the bottom of sotospeakpodcast.com or by subscribing to the general FIRE email list at thefire.org and noting that you would also like to subscribe to the “So to Speak” list. We appreciate your feedback: It will help us improve the show!

Timestamps

5:13 - October 7 attacks on Israel

6:04 - Greg’s initial thoughts

14:58 - Alex’s initial thoughts

20:29 - Protected vs. unprotected expression

28:11 - Statements from donors, students and faculty; double standards

40:49 - Institutional neutrality and the Kalven Report

51:01 - Combating Anti-Semitism, the Daryl Davis example

54:46 - Students for Justice in Palestine

1:01:48 - Tearing down posters

Show Notes

Transcript
Harvard student group letter (The public-facing Google Doc that originally hosted the letter was deleted.)
Bill Ackman letter to Harvard
The Kalven Report
Daryl Davis
FIRE Letter to University of Florida President Ben Sasse re: Students for Justice in Palestine (after recording this episode, Brandeis University derecognized its campus chapter of SJP. Here is FIRE’s letter to Brandeis).
Ron DeSantis, Tim Scott, and Marco Rubio call to revoke student visas
Trump Truth Social post calls for the expulsion of students who support Hamas

Ep. 198: 2023-24 Supreme Court Preview Oct 25, 2023

The Supreme Court handed down some big First Amendment victories last term. What lies ahead for the Court in the upcoming term? FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere and FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London join the show to discuss important First Amendment cases that will be heard during the Court’s 2023-24 session.

Timestamps:

0:00 - Introduction

1:47 - Murthy v. Missouri (government jawboning)

14:40 - NRA v. Vullo (government jawboning)

25:49 - NetChoice cases (social media regulation)

46:39 - Social media blocking cases

56:15 - Vidal v. Elster (trademark registration)

1:05:17 - Gonzalez v. Trevino (First Amendment retaliation)

Show Transcript:

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-2023-24-supreme-court-preview

Cases Discussed:

Murthy v. Missouri (government jawboning)

NetChoice, LLC v. Paxton (social media regulation)

Moody v. NetChoice, LLC (social media regulation)

O’Connor-Ratcliff v. Garnier (social media blocking)

Lindke v. Freed (social media blocking)

Vidal v. Elster (trademark registration)

Gonzalez v. Trevino (First Amendment retaliation)

Nat’l. Rifle Ass’n. of Am. v. Vullo (government jawboning)

Ep. 197 ‘Are cakes speech?’ with Alliance Defending Freedom’s Kristen Waggoner Oct 12, 2023

President, CEO, and general counsel of the Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristen Waggoner, joins us for a discussion on freedom of speech and religious liberty. ADF has played various roles in 74 U.S. Supreme Court victories and since 2011, has won cases before the Court 15 times.

According to its website, “ADF is the world's largest legal organization committed to protecting religious freedom, free speech, marriage and family, parental rights, and the sanctity of life.”

ADF has litigated many high profile and controversial free speech cases, including the recent Supreme Court case involving a web designer who didn’t want to be compelled to design websites for same-sex weddings. Before that, ADF litigated the 2018 Masterpiece Cakeshop case, which involved a cake designer who similarly didn’t want to provide his services for same-sex weddings on religious grounds.

After the initial conversation was recorded, The Washington Post and The New Yorker released articles critical of ADF. Nico and Kristen recorded an additional, brief conversation to address these articles. That is included at the end of the podcast.

Transcript:

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-are-cakes-speech-alliance-defending-freedoms-kristen

Timestamps:

0:43 - Introduction

6:16 - Kristen’s path to ADF

12:54 - ADF’s international team

14:20 - Pavi Rasanen controversy

19:24 - What does it mean to be a ministry?/blasphemy laws

22:56 - ADF’s Supreme Court cases

26:58 - 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis

28:56 - Public accommodation laws/Masterpiece Cakeshop

40:40 - Pre-enforcement challenges

42:50 - Facial challenges

47:32 - Test cases or fake cases?

49:44 - Yale incident

57:50 - Other campus shoutdowns

1:00:08 - L.M. v. Town of Middleborough

1:14:27 - Kristen addresses WaPo article

1:15:38 - Kristen addresses New Yorker article

Related Articles/Podcasts:

“Inside the tactics that won Christian vendors the right to reject gay weddings,” Jon Swaine and Beth Reinhard (The Washington Post)
“Are ADF’s Cases ‘Made Up’?” Lathan Watts (ADF, response to The Washington Post)
“The next targets for the group that overturned Roe,” David D. Kirkpatrick (The New Yorker)
FIRE’s response to Kristen Waggoner Yale incident
FIRE’s response to Anne Coulter Cornell incident
FIRE’s response to Ilya Shapiro Georgetown incident
FIRE’s response to Ian Haworth UAlbany incident
“The Imperfect Plaintiffs” (“More Perfect” podcast with Julia Longoria)

Cases Discussed:

Dubash v. City of Houston (Animal rights activists lawsuit, 2023)
Paivi Rasanen (Finnish lawmaker charged with incitement against gay people)
303 Creative LLC v. Elenis (2022)
Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission (2017)
Uzuebgunam v. Preczewski (2021)
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943)
Wooley v. Maynard (1997)
Plessy v. Ferguson (1986)
L.M. v. Town of Middleborough (2023)

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-identity-trap-yascha-mounk

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 196 ‘The Identity Trap’ by Yascha Mounk Sep 27, 2023

Writer and academic Yascha Mounk argues that a new set of ideas about race, gender, and sexual orientation have overtaken society, giving rise to a rigid focus on identity in our national debate. In his new book, “The Identity Trap: A Story of Ideas and Power in Our Time,” Yascha seeks to take these ideas seriously, understand their origin, dissect their merits and failings, and offer a path forward to avoid what he calls “the identity trap.” On today’s show, Mounk previews his book and explains how the identity trap harms freedom of speech.

Mounk is known for his work on the rise of populism and the crisis of liberal democracy. He is a professor of the practice of international affairs at Johns Hopkins University and the author of five books. He is also the founder of the digital magazine Persuasion, a contributing editor at The Atlantic, and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Transcript:

Timestamps:

0:00 - Introduction
1:35 - Origins of “the identity trap”
8:48 - What is “identity synthesis?”
12:26 - Is “cultural Marxism” a thing? / The intellectual history of identity synthesis
27:47 - Critical race theory
32:30 - Free speech culture
40:22 - Speech and violence
47:58 - The Law of Group Polarization
52:27 - How to escape the identity trap

Discussed intellectuals:

Derrick Bell
Kimberlé Crenshaw
Jacques Derrida
Michel Foucault
Christopher Rufo (Rufo’s book, “America’s Cultural Revolution,” and Nico’s review, “Christopher Rufo Became the Thing He Claims to Hate”)
Edward Said
Jean-Paul Sartre
Gayatri Spivak
Cass Sunstein (article: “The Law of Group Polarization”)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 195 ‘Don’t Tread on Me,’ misgendering, cancel culture, and three strikes for Texas Sep 07, 2023

FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff and FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London join the show to preview Greg’s new co-authored book on cancel culture and to discuss recent free speech cases and headlines:

Transcript: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-dont-tread-me-misgendering-cancel-culture-and-three

“The Canceling of the American Mind,” by Greg Lukianoff and Rikki Schlott (out Oct. 17)

Colorado public school to allow student to display Gadsden flag patch — as long as nobody complains

California library violates First Amendment, boots speakers for referring to transgender women as ‘biological men’

Police stage ‘chilling’ raid on Marion County newspaper, seizing computers, records and cellphones

Federal judge: Texas Law Mandating Age Verification for Sexually Themed Sites Violates First Amendment (Court Also Strikes Down "Public Health Warning" for Porn Sites)

Judge blocks Arkansas law requiring parental OK for minors to create social media accounts

Federal judge bars Texas from enforcing book rating law

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 194 Harvey Silverglate, the beatnik criminal defense attorney Aug 24, 2023

Harvey Silverglate is a criminal defense and civil liberties attorney. He is also the co-founder of FIRE.

On today’s show, Harvey defends the work of criminal defense attorneys, explaining why even guilty people must have the right to a robust legal defense. He also shares stories from his life, from growing up in Brooklyn to defending Vietnam War protesters to co-founding FIRE.

Transcript

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 193 Can you still have a debate in high school debate? Aug 10, 2023

High school debate is considered an ideal extracurricular activity for aspiring lawyers, politicians, or anyone seeking to learn the tools of effective communication and persuasion. But a slew of recent reports argue that high school debate is being captured by political ideology, rendering certain arguments off-limits, some debate topics undebatable, and ad hominem attacks fair game.

Debate judges disclose their judging paradigms by saying things like, “I will listen to conservative-leaning arguments, but be careful,” or, “Before anything else, including being a debate judge, I am a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. . . . I cannot check the revolutionary proletarian science at the door when I’m judging.” Some debates even devolve into personal attacks, spurred on by judges who say they “will consider indictments of an opponent on the basis that they have done [or] said something racist, gendered, [or] -phobic in their personal behavior.”

On today’s show, we’re joined by two former high school debaters who are dismayed by these trends. James Fishback is the founder of Incubate Debate, which hosts free debate tournaments for students in Florida. Matthew Adelstein is a rising sophomore studying philosophy at the University of Michigan and publishes Bentham's Newsletter, a newsletter about utilitarianism.

Show notes:

Transcript of episode
“Part I: At high school debates, debate is no longer allowed” by James Fishback
“Part II: At high school debates, watch what you say” by James Fishback
“How critical theory is radicalizing high school debate” by Maya Bodnick
Nico’s current reading list on critical theory: “Grand Hotel Abyss” by Stuart Jeffries and “America’s Cultural Revolution” by Christopher F. Rufo

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 192 Free speech at the Supreme Court Jul 27, 2023

We review the Supreme Court’s free speech cases during the 2022-23 term and speculate on what’s in store for the next term. FIRE Vice President of Litigation Darpana Sheth guest hosts and is joined by FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere and FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London.

This episode was recorded before a virtual live audience on July 20. Watch a video of the conversation.

Cases discussed:

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 191 Civil liberties and Civil War Jul 13, 2023

In the last episode of the “So to Speak” podcast, we traced the dramatic story of free speech in the United States from colonial America to the abolitionists' campaign to abolish slavery. In this week’s episode, we pick up where we left off and explore the complicated history and legacy of civil liberties during the American Civil War.

Professor and author Joseph R. Fornieri and FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere join the show this week to unpack Abraham Lincoln’s justifications for suspending civil liberties and the important lesson that, in war, civil liberties can be hard to uphold, and our rights can be difficult to defend.

Show notes:

Transcript
“Fateful Lightning: A New History of the Civil War and Reconstruction” by Allen Guelzo
“Lincoln’s First Amendment Record” by Eve Errickson (The Lincoln Cottage)
“The Fate of Liberty: Abraham Lincoln and Civil Liberties” by Mark E. Neeley, Jr.
“All the Laws but One: Civil Liberties in Wartime” by William H. Rehnquist
“Did Abraham Lincoln Exceed His Presidential Powers during the Civil War?” (The Bill of Rights Institute)
“Lincoln and Civil Liberties” (The Gilder-Lehrman Institute)

Join FIRE on July 20th at 3:00 PM EST for a special live-streamed episode of the "So to Speak" podcast about the Supreme Court's free speech decisions from this past term.

Hear from FIRE’s Darpana Sheth, Bob Corn-Revere, and Ronnie London on what these decisions mean for free expression, (and maybe even for you), and ask the panel anywhatever burning questions you may have. You can register here.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 190 Free speech and Abolitionism Jun 28, 2023

Last Constitution Day, we traced the origins of free speech in the United States from colonial America to the ratification of the Bill of Rights in 1791. In this episode, we jump forward to the antebellum period, where abolitionists such as Frederick Douglass, John Quincy Adams, William Lloyd Garrison, and Angelina Grimké clashed with pro-slavery advocates over the monumental issue of slavery.

Journalist and author Damon Root, FIRE Senior Fellow Jacob Mchangama, and Washington and Lee University professor Lucas Morel join the show this week to explore how free speech and the free press became the essential tools in the abolitionists’ campaign for freedom.

Show notes:

Transcript
“Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media” by Jacob Mchangama
“Glorious Liberty: Frederick Douglass and the Fight for an Anti-Slavery Constitution” by Damon Root
“Speaking the Truth” by Lucas Morel (Persuasion)
“A Plea for Free Speech in Boston” by Federick Douglass (National Constitution Center)
“Frederick Douglass” (The First Amendment Encyclopedia)
“What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?” by Frederick Douglass (Teaching American History)
“With the Freedom of Speech, the Responsibility to Listen” (Ford Foundation)

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 189 Why should we care about punk rock? Jun 14, 2023

Nico knows very little about punk rock. On today’s show, Reason magazine’s Nick Gillespie and FIRE Vice President of Communications Matt Harwood do their best to explain to Nico why he and other free speech advocates should care about punk rock.

Transcript: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-why-should-we-care-about-punk-rock

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 188 How to make a winning free speech argument Jun 01, 2023

Winning in the court of public opinion is hard. On today’s show, Ewing School founder Bob Ewing shares communications strategies that anyone — including free speech advocates — can use to win in the marketplace of ideas.

Prior to founding the Ewing School, Bob was director of communications for the Institute for Justice and pioneered a communications training program for the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. Bob is also the author of the Talking Big Ideas Substack, which Nico highly recommends.

Bob first shared his ideas on effective communication with host Nico Perrino over lunch in May 2013. Some of those ideas went on to shape FIRE’s communications strategy for the next decade.

Transcript: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-how-make-winning-free-speech-argument

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 187 Dominion vs. Fox lawyers reflect on historic case May 15, 2023

On April 18, Fox News agreed to pay Dominion Voting Systems $787.5 million to settle a defamation lawsuit stemming from allegations of voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election. The historic settlement came just before the trial was set to begin in a case many saw as having significant First Amendment implications. In this exclusive conversation, attorneys for Fox and Dominion join First Amendment attorney Lee Levine to reflect on what led to the case, its outcome, and the arguments they would have made had the case gone to trial.

Tom Clare is a founding partner of Clare Locke LLP and was counsel to Dominion. Dan Webb is co-executive chairman of Winston & Strawn and was counsel for Fox News.

The conversation was organized and presented by The First Amendment Salon on Tuesday, May 9.

Show notes:

https://youtu.be/OBuXYtmQ8mw

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 186 Killer Mike on free speech, racial justice, and Rap on Trial Apr 27, 2023

Rocking their tuxedos in preparation for the 2023 FIRE gala in New York City, Host Nico Perrino speaks with rapper and free speech advocate Killer Mike about his journey toward learning the value of free expression.

They also discuss the importance of free speech in American history, the value of engaging and arguing with those who disagree with us, why free speech was critical to gaining racial equality, defending rappers and artists being prosecuted for their lyrics, and why polarization is more dangerous than anything anybody can say.

The interview is followed by Killer Mike’s keynote speech.

Watch Killer Mike's keynote speech at the 2023 FIRE Gala in New York City:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 185 Sex, drugs, and free speech (Bob Guccione Jr. and Nick Gillespie) Apr 20, 2023

Does music censorship still happen in America? Is “sex, drugs, and rock ‘n’ roll” dead? Is transgression in art and culture celebrated anymore (or was it ever)? From Beyonce and Taylor Swift to Ozzy Osbourne and Robin Thicke, SPIN magazine founder Bob Guccione Jr. and Reason magazine Editor at Large Nick Gillespie join a lively discussion of our current moment in pop culture. Bob also shares some war stories from his fight against the Parents Music Resource Center in the 1980s.

Transcript: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-sex-drugs-and-free-speech

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 184 What’s going on in Florida? Mar 28, 2023

What’s going on in Florida? Host Nico Perrino and his FIRE colleagues break down the latest efforts to censor speech in the Sunshine State.

Show notes:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 183 The Stanford shout-down with David Lat Mar 22, 2023

UPDATE: Just as this podcast was to be published, Stanford Law School Dean Jenny Martinez sent a 10-page memorandum to the law school community outlining a path forward for the school, including updating school policies to prevent future speaker disruptions and mandatory student free speech training. She also announced that Associate Dean Tirien Steinbach is on leave.

–

The heckling began almost as soon as Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Kyle Duncan started his invited lecture at Stanford Law School on March 9. Signs in the audience read “RESPECT TRANS RIGHTS,” “FEDSUCK,” “BE PRONOUN NOT PRO-BIGOT.” What transpired over the next 40 minutes captured national headlines and raised questions about the state of free speech at America’s law schools.

David Lat writes commentary about law and the legal profession for Original Jurisdiction. Until 2019, he was an editor at the legal news website Above the Law, which he founded. Prior to his journalism career, David was a practicing lawyer.

Show notes:

Transcript
“Yale Law is no longer #1 for free speech debacles” by David Lat
“7 updates on Judge Kyle Duncan and Stanford Law” by David Lat
“The full audio recording of Judge Kyle Duncan at Stanford Law” by David Lat
Transcript of Stanford administrator Dean Tirien Steinbach’s remarks on March 9 at event featuring Fifth Circuit Judge Kyle Duncan
Email to Stanford Law School from Dean Jenny Martinez
Stanford apology letter to Judge Kyle Duncan
Flyers protesting Stanford law event
“Shouting down speakers is mob censorship” by Nadine Strossen and Greg Lukianoff
Kalven Committee: Report on the university’s role in political and social action (University of Chicago report)

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 182 Ilya Shapiro on Fox/Dominion and his ‘cancel culture nightmare’ Mar 10, 2023

Ilya Shapiro joins the show to discuss the fireworks in the Fox/Dominion defamation lawsuit, his recent speaking appearance at the University of Denver, and his “cancel culture nightmare” at Georgetown University.

Shapiro is a senior fellow and director of constitutional studies at the Manhattan Institute. He previously (and briefly) served as executive director and senior lecturer at the Georgetown Center for the Constitution and as a vice president at the Cato Institute.

Shapiro will speak at FIRE’s gala celebration in NYC on April 18. Reserve your tickets now at this link.

Show notes:

Transcript
“My cancel culture nightmare is over” by Ilya Shapiro
“Ilya Shapiro resigns from Georgetown following reinstatement after 122-day investigation of tweets” (featuring Ilya’s resignation letter)
Ilya’s Substack, Shapiro’s Gavel
“Why the mental health of liberal girls sank first and fastest” by Jonathan Haidt

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 181 New York Times v. Sullivan and its future Feb 23, 2023

The seminal 1964 Supreme Court decision in New York Times v. Sullivan limited the ability of public officials to silence their critics by successfully suing them for defamation. Sullivan made “American public officials more accountable, the American media more watchful, and the American people better informed,” said William Rehnquist, the late Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. But Sullivan is increasingly under attack from politicians, activists, and even sitting Justices of the Supreme Court. They believe the decision went too far, enabling the news media and others to defame others with little-to-no consequence. On today’s show, we are joined by lawyers Floyd Abrams (Cahill Gordon & Reindel), JT Morris (FIRE), and Matthew Schafer (Fordham Law) to discuss New York Times v. Sullivan and its future. Show notes:

Transcript
New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964)
“Two Justices Say Supreme Court Should Reconsider Landmark Libel Decision” by Adam Liptak
“How to Restore Balance to Libel Law” by Glenn Reynolds
Florida HB 991, the anti-Sullivan bill
Matthew Schafer’s tweet thread on Florida’s HB 991
“New York Times v. Sullivan and the Forgotten Session of the US Supreme Court” by Matthew Schafer
“The Most Important Supreme Court Precedent for Freedom of the Press Is in Jeopardy” by Matthew Schafer and Jeff Kosseff

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 180 Super Bowl free speech fumble Feb 09, 2023

FIRE’s Will Creeley and Aaron Terr join the show to discuss Phoenix, Arizona’s unconstitutional “clean zone” for Super Bowl LVII, Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot’s effort to get public school students to volunteer for her re-election campaign, recent polling on how much people really know about the First Amendment (sadly, not much), and Indiegogo, Kickstarter, and Crowdfundr canceling fundraisers for comic books they deemed politically unacceptable.

We also provide an update on the Hamline University Muhammad art censorship case.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 179 Artificial intelligence: Is it protected by the First Amendment? Jan 26, 2023

What does the rise of artificial intelligence mean for the future of free speech and the First Amendment? Who is liable for what AI produces? Can you own a copyright for works produced by AI? Does AI itself violate intellectual property rights when it uses others’ information to generate content? What about that Morgan Freeman “deep fake”? And is ChatGPT going to make all of our jobs irrelevant?

Show notes:

Transcript

Guests:

Eugene Volokh, professor at UCLA School of Law
David Greene, senior staff attorney and civil liberties director at the Electronic Frontier Foundation
Alison Schary, partner at Davis Wright Tremaine

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 178 The costs of offending religious sensitivities Jan 12, 2023

A faculty member at Hamline University lost her job. Twelve staffers at the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo were murdered. And Salman Rushdie was repeatedly stabbed. All of them offended certain people’s religious sensitivities.

On today’s show, we are joined by Amna Khalid and Michael Moynihan to discuss the risks and costs of teaching, talking, writing, and creating art about religion, particularly Islam. We also discuss the recent #TwitterFiles reporting.

Amna Khalid is an associate professor of history at Carleton College and host of the podcast “Banished.” Michael Moynihan is a writer, reporter, and co-host of “The Fifth Column” podcast.

Show notes:

Transcript
New York Times: “A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job.” by Vimal Patel
The offending image
“Most of All, I Am Offended as a Muslim” by Amna Khalid
“Hamline Student Newspaper (the Oracle) Removed Published Defense of Lecturer Who Showed Painting of Muhammad” by Eugene Volokh
“We must stand up to Iran’s threats to free speech” by FIRE’s Sarah McLaughlin (reflecting on the anniversary of the Charlie Hebdo attacks)
“Capsule Summaries of all Twitter Files Threads to Date, With Links and a Glossary” by Matt Taibbi

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 177 Are Ann Coulter’s words really ‘violence’? Dec 21, 2022

Do Ann Coulter’s words equal “violence”? Does Emerson College care more about not offending the Chinese Communist Party than protecting student free speech rights? And are faculty political litmus tests back in vogue? FIRE’s Alex Morey and Zach Greenberg join the show to discuss the latest in campus censorship.

Please support this show by donating to FIRE before the end of the year: thefire.org/support

Show notes:

Transcript
“San Diego State University: University senate adopts policy imposing DEI requirement in reappointment, tenure, and promotion review process”
“University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign: Faculty up for promotion and tenure must submit diversity, equity, and inclusion statements, affirm university views”
“‘Your words are violence!’ Cornell students shout down Ann Coulter in latest heckler’s veto to roil campuses this semester” by Amanda Nordstrom
“Penn State defends canceling controversial event over ‘threats of violence,’ as police stood by during assaults on students” by Aaron Corpora
“UC Davis feces-flingers lose their shit over movie screening” by James Jordan
“Emerson still ‘kinda sus’ on free speech — so we’ve alerted their accreditor” by Graham Piro
“Arrest of student in Boston a grim reminder of the danger facing Chinese dissidents on campus” by Sarah McLaughlin
“Tennessee Tech still investigating, enforcing event ban on LGBTQ+ and theater groups that hosted drag show” by Amanda Nordstrom
“Federal court distorts First Amendment, upholds Tennessee Tech’s punishment of professors for ‘Game of Thrones’ parody flyers” by Zach Greenberg

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 176 Can a graphic designer be compelled to design a website for a same-sex wedding? Dec 08, 2022

Hot on the heels of oral argument in 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis, FIRE’s Ronnie London and David Hudson join the show to discuss the case, as well as other high profile free speech cases at the Supreme Court this year.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thefireorg Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 175 Jawboning, book banning, and LeBron James thinks hate speech isn’t free speech (also Elon Musk … again) Nov 22, 2022

FIRE’s new Director of Public Advocacy Aaron Terr and the Cato Institute’s Will Duffield join the show to discuss a slew of recent free speech news. California gets it right on rap lyrics but wrong on coronavirus misinformation. One Texas school district repeatedly ventures into book banning. LeBron James spreads “hate speech” misinformation. Is government “jawboning” censorship? And, yes, Elon Musk . . . again.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thefireorg Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 174 Elon Musk, PayPal, and is New York trying to destroy Twitch? Nov 03, 2022

FIRE’s Will Creeley and Aaron Terr join the show to discuss a slew of recent free speech news: What do we make of Elon Musk buying Twitter? Is PayPal fining its users $2,500 for promoting “misinformation”? Is New York trying to destroy Twitch? And do public employees in Charlottesville, Va., need to shut their mouths to keep their jobs? Also, how’s FIRE’s off-campus expansion going?

Show notes:

Transcript
Open letter to Elon Musk from Greg Lukianoff on preserving free expression on social media
“Elon Musk’s business ties deserve more scrutiny” by Matt Yglesias
“Welcome to geriatric social media” by Charlie Warzel
“Silicon Values: The future of free speech under surveillance capitalism” by Jillian C. York
“PayPal is no pal to free expression” by Aaron Terr
“Did PayPal reverse course on proposed speech-chilling policies?” by Aaron Terr
“Did PayPal quietly bring back its financial penalty for spreading ‘misinformation’?” by Aaron Terr
“The Internet Is Not Facebook: Why Infrastructure Providers Should Stay Out of Content Policing” by Corynne McSherry and Jillian C. York
New York attorney general report on the Buffalo shooting, social media, and livestreaming
“City’s new policy wrongly muzzles employees” by Will Creeley

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 173 Does your book need a sensitivity reader? Oct 20, 2022

Do books need a special editor who reads for offensive content? And who gets to decide what’s offensive anyway? This week we are joined by authors Kat Rosenfield and Vesper Stamper to discuss censorial trends in book publishing, including the rise of so-called “sensitivity readers” and the sometimes successful campaigns to get books canceled before they are even published. We also explore adjacent debates: Is it appropriate to write outside of one’s identity or lived experience? And can authors write about people who do bad things without endorsing the bad things they do?

Show notes:

Transcript
“The Toxic Drama on YA Twitter” by Kat Rosenfield
“Berliners” by Vesper Stamper
“No One Will Miss Her: A Novel” by Kat Rosenfield
New York Times: “Sundance Liked Her Documentary on Terrorism, Until Muslim Critics Didn’t”
“You Must Remember This: A Novel” by Kat Rosenfield

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 172 What does the First Amendment protect on social media? Oct 05, 2022

Does the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protect a private social media company’s right to moderate content on its platform?A new ruling from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit says it does not, and that a Texas law preventing viewpoint discrimination on social media platforms is constitutional.The issue is likely bound for the Supreme Court, setting up what is arguably the most consequential First Amendment legal case in a half-century. Institute for Free Speech Chairman and Founder Brad Smith and George Mason University law professor Ilya Somin join us to debate the ruling and the future of free speech on the internet.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 171 Nature Human Misbehavior Sep 29, 2022

“Should academic journals appoint themselves social justice gatekeepers?”That is the question journalist and author Jonathan Rauch asks in responding to new ethics guidance from the academic journal Nature Human Behaviour. The journal introduces the guidance by ominously noting that “although academic freedom is fundamental, it is not unbounded.” It then goes on to discuss ways it will restrict publishing research that allegedly harms, stigmatizes, or otherwise “undermines the dignity or rights of specific groups” — even inadvertently.Rauch joins the show, along with University of Southern California professor Anna Krylov.

Show notes:

Transcript
“Science must respect the dignity and rights of all humans” by Nature Human Behaviour (editorial announcing ethics guidelines)
“Nature Human Misbehavior: politicized science is neither science nor progress” by Jonathan Rauch
“The Peril of Politicizing Science” by Anna l. Krylov
“The Doctrine of Academic Freedom” by Sandra Y.L. Korn (article advocating for “academic justice” in lieu of academic freedom)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 170 Free speech and the American Founding Sep 15, 2022

This Saturday, Sept. 17, is Constitution Day. It was on this day in 1787 that delegates to the Constitutional Convention signed America’s Constitution. And while the First Amendment was not ratified until 1791, discussions over the role of free speech and expression in a democratic society were alive long before then.

Pepperdine University professor and author Gordon Lloyd joins the show this week to explore how the American conception of free speech came to be, from the colonial era to the ratification of the Bill of Rights. Drawing from over 40 years of research, Lloyd discusses examples of free speech and expression during the founding, ranging from 1641, when the Massachusetts Body of Liberties — the earliest known protection of free speech in the colonies — was published; to 1776, when free speech aided the decision to declare independence from Great Britain; to the late 1780s, when federalist and anti-federalist publications sparked, in Lloyd’s words, “the greatest pamphlet war the world has ever seen.”

Show notes:

Transcript
The Bill of Rights Online Exhibit on AmericanFounding.org
“The Essential Bill of Rights: Original Arguments and Fundamental Documents” edited by Gordon Lloyd and Margie Lloyd
The Federalist Papers by James Madison, John Jay, and Alexander Hamilton and edited by George W. Carey and James McClellan
“The Essential Antifederalists” edited by William B. Allen and Gordon Lloyd
“Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787” by James Madison and edited by Gordon Lloyd
“Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media” by Jacob Mchangama

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 169 The Art of Insubordination Sep 01, 2022

What can Charles Darwin teach us about dissent? What do the professional basketball careers of Wilt Chamberlain and Rick Barry tell us about conventional wisdom?On today’s show, George Mason University Professor Todd Kashdan helps us understand the value of principled dissent: what it is, how to do it, and the pitfalls to avoid. He is the author of “The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively.”

Show notes:

Transcript
Todd’s “Provoked” newsletter: “Enjoy new psychological angles on conventional practices.”
Study: “Sexual Healing: Daily Diary Investigation of the Benefits of Intimate and Pleasurable Sexual Activity in Socially Anxious Adults”
Study: “Is Martin Luther King or Malcolm X the more acceptable face of protest? High-status groups’ reactions to low-status groups’ collective action”
“Brief, face-to-face canvassing reduces transgender prejudice, study says”

https://www.thefire.org/so-to-speak-podcast-transcript-the-first-amendment-created-gay-america/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 168 Assassin’s veto comes for Rushdie Aug 17, 2022

Last week, a would-be assassin attacked Salman Rushdie, author of “The Satanic Verses,” in an apparent attempt to carry out the infamous fatwa placed on Rushdie’s life. Fortunately, Rushdie survived the attack. Vice News Tonight correspondent and “The Fifth Column” podcast co-host Michael Moynihan joins the show to discuss what happened, what it means for free speech, and the history of “The Satanic Verses” controversy.

Show notes:

Transcript
Lara Bazelon’s keynote address at FIRE’s 2022 Student Network Conference
“Sticks and Stones: Defeating the Culture of Bullying and Rediscovering the Power of Character and Empathy” by Emily Bazelon
“From Fatwa to Jihad: The Rushdie Affair and Its Aftermath” by Kenan Malik
Kenan Malik BBC Newsnight clip arguing that “The Satanic Verses” “wouldn’t even be written today, let alone published.”
“The Tyranny of Silence” by Flemming Rose
“Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free Thought” by Jonathan Rauch
“Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media” by Jacob Mchangama
“Private Opinion in America,” a national quantitative survey from Populace Insights that reveals Americans’ private opinions about sensitive topics
“The Jewel of Medina: A Novel” by Sherry Jones

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 167 That Facebook post about abortion could land you in jail Aug 11, 2022

When the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, eliminating the constitutional right to an abortion in the United States, many people expected states to pass laws restricting access to abortion services. Perhaps less expected was that some lawmakers now seek to pass laws restricting — and criminalizing — speech about abortion services.

FIRE Legal Director Will Creeley and FIRE Senior Fellow and former ACLU President Nadine Strossen join the show to discuss their recent essay, “That Facebook post about abortion could land you in jail — if South Carolina legislators have their way.”

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 166 Substack, a platform for free speech? Jul 21, 2022

Substack — the popular newsletter and publishing service — has made a name for itself by swimming against the current: As many technology companies devise new ways to censor or moderate content on their platforms, Substack made free speech one of its core values and, in doing so, has attracted bloggers and journalists from across the political spectrum.

“While we have content guidelines that allow us to protect the platform at the extremes, we will always view censorship as a last resort, because we believe open discourse is better for writers and better for society,” proclaimed Substack’s founders.

Lulu Cheng Meservey is Vice President of Communications for Substack. She went viral earlier this year when she tweeted about why free expression is an important principle for Substack. She joins us this week to discuss Substack, free speech, and the new media ecosystem.

Show notes:

Transcript
Lulu’s viral tweet thread
“Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse.” by Hamish McKenzie, Chris Best, and Jairaj Sethi
Substack’s “Content Guidelines”
Substackers mentioned: Andrew Sullivan, Casey Newton, The Fifth Column, Patti Smith, George Saunders, Salman Rushdie, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Freddie deBoer, Nikita Petrov,
Blocked and Reported
John Stuart Mill’s “On Liberty”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 165 Title IX gets twisted again Jul 07, 2022

Last month, the U.S. Department of Education proposed new Title IX regulations that, if implemented, would gut essential free speech and due process rights for college students facing sexual misconduct allegations on campus.

Joining us to analyze the regulations and their impact are FIRE’s executive director and author of the book “Twisting Title IX,” Robert Shibley, Allen Harris Law Partner Samantha Harris, and Brooklyn College professor KC Johnson.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 164 ‘The First Amendment created gay America’ Jun 23, 2022

“Every advance gay people have made in this country has been the result of the exercise of free expression,” argues writer James Kirchick, author of the New York Times bestseller, “Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington.”

Transcript:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 163 The new FIRE Jun 06, 2022

Today, the Foundation for Individual Rights *in Education* becomes the Foundation for Individual Rights *and Expression*.

America’s leading defender of free speech, due process, and academic freedom in higher education announced it is taking its free speech mission beyond college campuses with a $75 million expansion initiative.

FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff and FIRE COO Alisha Glennon join the show to discuss how the organization is changing and why.

Transcript:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SotoSpeakTheFreeSpeechPodcast

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 162 “Parental Advisory” and music censorship with Eric Nuzum May 26, 2022

In this week’s episode of So to Speak, we focus on some of the notable cases of music censorship in America, the formation of the Parents Music Resource Center (PMRC), and the lasting effects of the PMRC’s efforts on the music industry.

Author Eric Nuzum joins us to discuss his 2001 book, “Parental Advisory: Music Censorship in America.” Nuzum illustrates examples of music censorship ranging from the Reconstruction era, when Southerners were prevented from publicly singing pro-Confederate ballads, to 1967, when the network that aired televised live performances by The Doors and The Rolling Stones asked the bands to alter their lyrics. Nuzum also discusses the PMRC’s “Filthy Fifteen”; Senate hearings featuring John Denver, Frank Zappa, and Dee Snider; post-9/11 radio censorship; and more recent controversies involving the use of rap lyrics as evidence in criminal trials.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 161 What did ‘On the Media’ get wrong about free speech … again? May 09, 2022

Twitter is going to become 8chan. At least, that’s what a recent episode of the popular radio program “On the Media” suggests will happen if Elon Musk successfully buys Twitter.

Musk promised to bring greater free speech protections to the social media platform. But where Musk sees an opportunity for more freedom, some see the potential for too much freedom. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, Matt Taibbi, Nadine Strossen, and Amna Khalid discuss what “On the Media” got wrong and what they got really wrong in their episode “Ghost in the Machine.” (No, “On the Media,” Twitter will not become a platform for child pornography.)

This is the second time we have addressed bad free speech arguments from “On the Media.” The first time was last September, when this same group responded to the episode, “Constitutionally Speaking.”

Matt Taibbi is the author of four New York Times bestselling books. He writes a popular Substack newsletter, TK News.

Nadine Strossen is a professor of law, emerita at New York Law School and served for 17 years as the president of the ACLU.

Amna Khalid is an associate professor of history at Carleton College and the host of a new podcast called “Banished.”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 160 Hugh Hefner, free speech scrapbooker May 05, 2022

Did you know Hugh Hefner holds the Guinness World Record for owning the largest personal scrapbook collection in the world?When he was not building the global Playboy empire, he spent his Saturdays compiling more than 3,000 scrapbooks, chronicling free speech and press issues during his lifetime.

Stuart N. Brotman, professor at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, was granted exclusive access to Hefner’s scrapbooks. On today’s episode, he talks about what he found and about his new book, “The First Amendment Lives On: Conversations Commemorating Hugh M. Hefner's Legacy of Enduring Free Speech and Free Press Values.”

Show notes:

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 159 Disney and Elon Musk Apr 26, 2022

Does Disney have free speech rights? And did Florida violate the First Amendment when it punished the company for its political activism? Elon Musk is buying Twitter. What should free speech advocates make of that?

Recurring guest and famed First Amendment scholar Robert Corn-Revere is here to break it all down for us. He’s a partner at the law firm Davis Wright-Tremaine, a member of FIRE’s Advisory Council, and the author of “The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder: The First Amendment and the Censor’s Dilemma.”

Show notes:

Transcript
Subscribe to First Amendment News
“Punishing Disney for Opposing Florida’s ‘Don’t Say Gay’ law poses Serious First Amendment Problems” by Robert Corn-Revere
Open letter to Elon Musk from Greg Lukianoff on preserving free expression on social media
Press Release: “Elon Musk to Acquire Twitter”
Electronic Frontier Foundation: “Twitter Has a New Owner. Here’s What He Should Do.”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 158 What is academic freedom? Apr 21, 2022

What is academic freedom? And who polices its boundaries?

Our guests on today’s show argue that the popular conception of academic freedom has become too closely connected with the concept of free speech.

Penn State Professor Michael Bérubé and Portland State Professor Jennifer Ruth are the authors of “It’s Not Free Speech: Race, Democracy, and the Future of Academic Freedom.”

Show notes:

Transcript
The AAUP’s 1915 and 1940 statements on academic freedom
The AAUP’s “On Freedom of Expression and Campus Speech Codes”
“When Professors’ Speech Is Disqualifying” by Michael Bérubé and Jennifer Ruth
“Democracy, Expertise, and Academic Freedom: A First Amendment Jurisprudence for the Modern State” by Robert C. Post
“How Genetics Is Changing Our Understanding of ‘Race’” by David Reich
SUNY Fredonia: Philosophy Professor Suspended for Philosophizing About Pedophilia, the Stephen Kershnar case
“Hate Speech and the Limits of Free Expression,” Kenyon College panel featuring Ulrich Baer (video)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 157 Former BBC bureau chief Konstantin Eggert and what you need to know about censorship in Russia Apr 11, 2022

Konstantin Eggert, a native Muscovite, has reported on Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. He started his reporting career in Moscow in 1990. From 1998-2009, he was senior correspondent, then editor-in-chief, of the BBC Russian Service Moscow bureau. Later he worked for ExxonMobil Russia and Russian media outlets, Kommersant and TV Rain.

Now, living in Lithuania, Eggert is a vocal critic of the Putin regime and has more than a few thoughts on censorship in Russia: specifically, how it compares to Soviet censorship, the decline of independent media in the country, Russian history, and the war in Ukraine.

Eggert currently works for a German broadcaster, Deutsche Welle.

Show notes:

Transcript
Eggert on Twitter: @kvoneggert
Rulers and Victims: The Russians in the Soviet Union

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 156 What Russians don’t know about the war in Ukraine  Mar 24, 2022

The Russian government has purged independent media, banned protests, and shut down social media access. So, do Russians know the truth about the war in Ukraine?

Ksenia Turkova is a journalist from Russia who currently works for Voice of America. Before coming to the United States she worked for a number of Russian news outlets, including some that were shut down by the Russian government. She also spent time as a radio host in Ukraine.

On today’s episode of “So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast,” Turkova shares her reporting on Russian censorship and the war in Ukraine, as well as some of her firsthand experiences as a reporter in the country.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 155 The John Roberts Supreme Court Mar 10, 2022

“No chief justice in our history has had as much influence on the law of freedom of expression as John Roberts,” according to Ronald K.L. Collins and David L. Hudson Jr.

They are the authors of a new Brooklyn Law Review article, “The Roberts Court—Its First Amendment Free Expression Jurisprudence: 2005–2021.”

On today’s episode of “So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast,” Collins and Hudson review 58 First Amendment rulings that have been issued since John Roberts became Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court.

Collins is a First Amendment scholar, author, and editor of First Amendment News. Hudson is the Justice Robert H. Jackson legal fellow at FIRE and a professor at Belmont University College of Law.

Podcast Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 154 Sarah Palin v. New York Times Feb 22, 2022

On today’s episode of “So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast,” we are joined by Robert Corn-Revere and David Hudson to discuss Sarah Palin v. New York Times, a defamation case that has captured national attention. Corn-Revere is a partner at Davis Wright Tremaine LLP and the author of the new book, “The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder.” Hudson is the Justice Robert H. Jackson legal fellow at FIRE and a professor at Belmont University College of Law.

National Institute of Family and Life Advocates v. Bacerra (2018)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 153 Elitist vs. egalitarian free speech (live recording, Q&A) Feb 04, 2022

On today’s episode, we feature a live recording of “So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast” with Jacob Mchangama, author of “Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media,” in conversation with FIRE’s Greg Lukianoff, Sarah McLaughlin, host Nico Perrino, and NYU professor Stephen D. Solomon.

The panelists discuss how lessons from free speech movements throughout world history can help explain today’s divisions over the value of free speech, and how conflicts between egalitarian and elitist schools of free speech thought are still with us in the digital age.

This recording was a co-sponsored event with First Amendment Watch at New York University.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 152 Banning critical race theory Jan 20, 2022

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by FIRE’s Joe Cohn and the American Enterprise Institute’s Max Eden to debate and discuss legislative efforts to ban critical race theory, or so-called “divisive concepts,” from being taught in schools.

Transcript
Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin’s executive order on critical race theory
“Ban Critical Race Theory now” by Max Eden
“Legislative efforts to address teachings on race pose threats to academic freedom” by Joe Cohn
“State legislatures continue efforts to restrict academic freedom” by Tyler Coward
“13 important points in the campus & K-12 ‘critical race theory’ debate” by Greg Lukianoff et al.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 151 Fighting words Jan 13, 2022

There are very few exceptions to the First Amendment. “Fighting words” is one of them. But since the Supreme Court first outlined this exception in 1942, it hasn’t shown much interest in revisiting the issue.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we’re joined by First Amendment scholar and FIRE Legal Fellow David L. Hudson Jr., who argues the “fighting words” doctrine is still alive and well in lower courts and is used to justify punishing everything from toilet tirades to cursing in a canoe.

Transcript
Fighting words overview
“The Fighting Words Doctrine: Alive and Well in the Lower Courts” by David Hudson
“Can anti-profanity laws and the fighting words doctrine be squared with the First Amendment?” by David Hudson
Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942)
- FIRE’s TikTok video about Chaplinsky
Cohen v. California (1971)
Gooding v. Wilson (1972)
Lewis v. City of New Orleans (1974)
City of Houston v. Hill (1987)
Texas v. Johnson (1989)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 150 George Orwell Dec 14, 2021

Who was Eric Arthur Blair, better known by his pen name “George Orwell?”

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we explore the life and work of an author who died at the age of 46 but whose writings — namely “Animal Farm” and “1984” — still help to shape our understanding of the freedoms of speech and conscience.

Joining us for the discussion is the author of Orwell’s authorized biography, Indiana State University professor Michael Shelden. Shelden’s biography of Orwell was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in 1992.

Show notes

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 149 Caitlin Flanagan and Greg Lukianoff Nov 23, 2021

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by The Atlantic magazine Staff Writer Caitlin Flanagan and FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff to discuss a wide range of topics, including Caitlin’s articles that touch on free speech, her growing up in Berkeley, Calif. the daughter of a professor, and newsroom orthodoxies and censorship.

Show notes:

Transcript
Caitlin’s The Atlantic article archive
“Can We Take a Joke?” documentary
“That’s Not Funny!” by Caitlin Flanagan
“The Dark Power of Fraternities” by Caitlin Flanagan
Dave Chappelle’s “The Closer”
Columbia University: Ideological litmus tests at Teachers College
Emerson College: Conservative student group investigated for distributing “China Kinda Sus” stickers
“Advancing Health Equity: A Guide to Language, Narrative and Concepts” by the American Medical Association and the Association of American Medical Colleges
“Letters to a Young Contrarian” by Christopher Hitchens

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 148 University of Austin, a new university devoted to free speech Nov 09, 2021

Pano Kanelos believes higher education is broken. But he isn’t waiting for colleges and universities to fix themselves. He’s starting his own.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Kanelos who is the inaugural president of the University of Austin, a new university devoted to free speech and open inquiry. Its initial programming, a Forbidden Courses summer program, aims to foster spirited discussion about the most provocative questions that often lead to censorship or self-censorship at many other universities.

Kanelos is a Shakespeare scholar and the former president of St. John's College in Annapolis, Md. He co-founded the University of Austin with Niall Ferguson, Bari Weiss, Heather Heying, and Joe Lonsdale.

Show notes:

Transcript
University of Austin website
“We Can’t Wait for Universities to Fix Themselves. So We’re Starting a New One.” by Pano Kanelos
New York Times: “They Say Colleges Are Censorious. So They Are Starting a New One.”
“I’m Helping to Start a New College Because Higher Ed Is Broken” by Niall Ferguson

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 147 ‘The Mind of the Censor’ with Robert Corn-Revere Oct 28, 2021

Censors almost never think they are censors. They often see themselves as heroes, saving the world from the destructive effects of rock ‘n’ roll, movies, comic books, pornography, video games, the internet, etc.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, author Robert Corn-Revere joins us to discuss how censors operate and why they never occupy the moral high ground. Robert is an attorney and partner at Davis Wright Tremaine LLP and the author of the new book, “The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder.”

Show notes:

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 146 Trigger warnings and DEI statements Oct 14, 2021

A consensus has emerged from a growing pile of scholarly research: Trigger warnings don’t work.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Carleton College associate professors Amna Khalid and Jeffrey Snyder to explore what the latest research says about the efficacy of trigger warnings. We also discuss one of the more contentious debates surrounding academic freedom: the rising prevalence of so-called diversity, equity, and inclusion statements for college faculty job applications and evaluations.

Show notes:

Transcript
“How to Fix Diversity and Equity” by Amna Khalid and Jeffrey Snyder
“The Data Is In — Trigger Warnings Don’t Work” by Amna Khalid and Jeffrey Snyder
Why We Don’t Use Trigger Warnings — An Animated Guide

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 145 First Amendment history with Yale Professor Akhil Amar Sep 30, 2021

September 25 was First Amendment Day in America — the anniversary of the date in 1789 when Congress approved 12 amendments to our Constitution, including what we today call the Bill of Rights.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we discuss the origin story and history of America’s First Amendment and its five freedoms.

To do so, host Nico Perrino is joined by Sterling Professor of Law and Political Science at Yale University Akhil Reed Amar. Amar is the author of “The Words That Made Us: America’s Constitutional Conversation, 1760-1840” and the host of the podcast “Amarica’s Constitution.”

Show notes:

Transcript
“The Words That Made Us: America’s Constitutional Conversation, 1760-1840” by Akhil Reed Amar
“The First Amendment’s Firstness” by Akhil Reed Amar
“How America’s Constitution Affirmed Freedom of Speech Even Before the First Amendment” by Akhil Reed Amar

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 144 Matt Taibbi, Nadine Strossen, and Amna Khalid respond to ‘On the Media’ free speech critiques Sep 16, 2021

Last month, On the Media, a popular radio program from New York City’s WNYC, aired an episode that questioned free speech values and challenged so-called “free speech absolutism.”

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Matt Taibbi, Nadine Strossen, and Amna Khalid, who provide direct responses to many of the free speech critiques made in On the Media’s program.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 143 Politics and thought reform in K-12 education Sep 02, 2021

Are America’s schools becoming too political?

FIRE’s Director of High School Programs argues, “Yes.” Bonnie Kerrigan Snyder is an educator with over 20 years of experience, and she’s worried by what she sees.

Amidst controversies surrounding so-called critical race theory, school walkouts, and standardized tests, Snyder increasingly hears reports of children “being indoctrinated, bullied, and harassed by their fellow students and teachers for not falling into line on various topics.”

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we discuss Snyder’s new book, “Undoctrinate: How Politicized Classrooms Harm Kids and Ruin Our Schools—And What We Can Do About It.”

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 142 Alfred Hitchcock and Hollywood’s Production Code Aug 12, 2021

Hollywood’s Motion Picture Production Code, popularly referred to as the Hays Code, loomed over films in every stage of movie production from 1934 to 1968. Scripts were reviewed and altered. Actors and filmmakers were forced to redo entire scenes. Editors were asked to cut dialogue and scenes from films. Music was changed. Ultimately, directors had to be cognizant of the censors at all times.

In this episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we interview three prominent guests to track the history of film censorship and the eventual demise of the Hays Code.

John Billheimer, author of “Hitchcock and the Censors (Screen Classics),” explains Alfred Hitchcock’s unique methods for dealing with controversial subject matter.

Laura Wittern-Keller is a professor in the History department at the University at Albany and author of several books on film censorship, including “Freedom of the Screen: Legal Challenges to State Film Censorship, 1915-1981” and “The Miracle Case: Film Censorship and the Supreme Court.”

Bob Corn-Revere, partner at Davis Wright Tremaine, is a frequent guest on the show. His forthcoming book “The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder: The First Amendment and the Censor’s Dilemma,” is due out in October.

Show notes:

Transcript
Mutual Film Corp. v. Industrial Comm’n of Ohio
Joseph Burstyn v. Wilson
United States v. Paramount Pictures
Hitchcock and the Censors (Screen Classics) by John Billheimer
Freedom of the Screen: Legal Challenges to State Film Censorship, 1915-1981 by Laura Wittern-Keller
The Miracle Case: Film Censorship and the Supreme Court by Laura Wittern-Keller
The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder: The First Amendment and the Censor’s Dilemma by Bob Corn-Revere
Hollywood's Censor: Joseph I. Breen and the Production Code Administration by Thomas Doherty

Ep. 141 Morris Ernst, Free Speech Renegade Jul 29, 2021

Morris Ernst may be the most influential free speech lawyer you’ve never heard of. He was the longtime general counsel for the ACLU, helped found the National Lawyers Guild, and just about single-handedly whittled away at obscenity laws in the United States — even litigating the famous “Ulysses” case, which overturned a 13-year ban on James’ Joyce’s renowned novel.

But he was an enigma: A staunch anti-communist and sometimes red-baiter, a close confidant of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, an unofficial PR agent for the FBI, and, later in his life, a crusader against the relative sexual permissiveness of the 1960s and ‘70s.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by University at Buffalo School of Law Professor Samantha Barbas to discuss her new book, “The Rise and Fall of Morris Ernst, Free Speech Renegade.”

Show notes:

Transcript
“The Rise and Fall of Morris Ernst, Free Speech Renegade” by Samantha Barbas

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 140 Free speech, psychology, and madness Jul 15, 2021

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Stetson University Professor of Psychology Christopher J. Ferguson for a wide-ranging conversation about the psychology of censorship, the role of madness and eccentricity in shaping history, the effects of social media, the growing polarization and politicization of modern institutions, including academia, and more.

Ferguson is the author of the new book “How Madness Shaped History: An Eccentric Array of Maniacal Rulers, Raving Narcissists, and Psychotic Visionaries.” He also co-authored “Moral Combat: Why the War on Violent Video Games is Wrong,” which was the subject of a past So to Speak episode.

Show notes:

Transcript
“Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies” by Jared M. Diamond
“Repressive Tolerance” by Herbert Marcuse
“Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness” by Cass Sunstein

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 139 Mahanoy v. B.L. Supreme Court ruling analysis Jun 24, 2021

This week, the United States Supreme Court vindicated the First Amendment rights of a high school cheerleader who was punished for a salty Snapchat she sent outside of school. It was a resounding victory for free speech advocates and the first time the Supreme Court has considered a high school free speech case since its disappointing 2007 ruling in Morse v. Frederick.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we analyze the Supreme Court’s ruling in Mahanoy Area School District v. B.L. with FIRE Legal Director Will Creeley and FIRE Legal Fellow David Hudson.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Photo by Danna Singer/Provided by the ACLU

Ep. 138 A history of Western censorship with Eric Berkowitz Jun 17, 2021

Socrates’ fateful hemlock. Henry VIII’s death decree for those who imagined his downfall. The 1836 “Gag Rule” banning slavery discussions in Congress. Britain’s early ban on films criticizing Hitler and Stalin.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by lawyer and writer Eric Berkowitz to discuss his fascinating new book, “Dangerous Ideas: A Brief History of Censorship in the West, from the Ancients to Fake News.”

Berkowitz’s “Dangerous Ideas” is a comprehensive and insightful adventure through time to examine censorship’s origins and trends.

Also joining the conversation is FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff.

Show notes:

Transcript
Washington Post: “Secret Consortium to Publish Rushdie in Paperback”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 137 The Constitution of Knowledge with Jonathan Rauch Jun 03, 2021

What differentiates Albert Einstein from a madman? How do we turn disagreement into knowledge? How do we know what’s true in a world filled with disinformation, conspiracy theories, trolling, and social media pile-ons?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Brookings Institution Senior Fellow Jonathan Rauch to discuss his new book “The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth,” which is set for release on June 22, 2021.

Also joining the conversation is FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff.

Show notes:

Transcript
“The Constitution of Knowledge” by Jonathan Rauch
“Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free Thought” by Jonathan Rauch
“The Coddling of the American Mind” by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 136 Comic book panic! May 20, 2021

Rebellion! Crime! Juvenile delinquency!

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, producer Chris Maltby explores the rise of comic books in the early 20th century and the moral panic, book burnings, and censorship that followed.

Show notes:

“The Ten-Cent Plague: The Great Comic Book Scare And How It Changed America” by David Hajdu
“The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder” by Bob Corn-Revere
“A National Disgrace” by Sterling North
“Puddles of Blood,” Time Magazine, 1948
Comic Book Legal Defense Fund

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 135 Are education schools secretly driving campus censorship? May 06, 2021

Are education schools secretly driving campus censorship?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Lewis & Clark Associate Professor of English Lyell Asher to discuss his 2018 article for the Chronicle of Higher Education, “How Ed Schools Became a Menace.”

Also joining the conversation is FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff, co-author of the bestseller “The Coddling of the American Mind.”

Show notes:

Transcript
“Educating School Leaders” by Arthur Levine
Yale University: Protesters at Yale Threaten Free Speech, Demand Apologies and Resignations from Faculty Members Over Halloween Email
“Please Report to Your Resident Assistant to Discuss Your Sexual Identity—It’s Mandatory! Thought Reform at the University of Delaware” by Adam Kissel
“Hard Words: Why Aren’t Kids Being Taught to Read” by Emily Hanford
“At a Loss for Words: How a Flawed Idea is Teaching Millions of Kids to be Poor Readers” by Emily Hanford
“Look Who’s Talking About Educational Equity” by Lyell Asher
E.D Hirsch’s Core Knowledge curriculum
“Other People’s Children: Cultural Conflict in the Classroom” by Lisa Delpit
“Racial Microaggressions in Everyday Life” by Derald Wing Sue et al.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 134 A cheerleader’s free speech case lands at the Supreme Court Apr 22, 2021

Ninth grader Brandi Levy was frustrated when she didn’t make her high school’s varsity cheerleading team so she posted an intemperate video about it on Snapchat to her 250 “friends.”

Four years later, that video, which led to her suspension from the junior varsity cheer team, will take center stage at the United States Supreme Court.

Mahanoy Area School District v. B.L. is a case that University of Florida Professor Frank LoMonte says will determine “the future of student free speech.”

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by LoMonte, who also leads the Brechner Center for Freedom of Information, and FIRE Program Officer Lindsie Rank to discuss the Mahanoy case, which could answer some important lingering questions about student speech rights off-campus and on social media.

The Supreme Court is set to hear oral arguments in the case on Wednesday, April 28. A decision is expected this summer.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

[FIXED] Ep. 133 University of Wisconsin Professor Donald Downs Apr 12, 2021

Editor's note: A previously published version of this episode featured an incorrect audio file for a different FIRE podcast. The error has been fixed and the correct audio file uploaded. We apologize for the error.

Retired University of Wisconsin Professor Donald Downs is a legendary champion of free speech and academic freedom. But before he became one of the country’s preeminent defenders of these values, he wrote a book that challenged prevailing free speech arguments.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Professor Downs to discuss his journey from somewhat of a free speech skeptic to one of its most fervent defenders.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 132 Academic Freedom Alliance with Keith Whittington Mar 25, 2021

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we discuss the newly formed Academic Freedom Alliance, which is a union of American college faculty members dedicated to protecting faculty expressive and academic freedom rights.

Keith E. Whittington is the William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Politics in the Department of Politics at Princeton University. Professor Whittington is the chair of AFA’s Academic Committee. He also is a member of FIRE’s Board of Directors.

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 131 ‘Incitement’ with David L. Hudson Jr. Mar 08, 2021

There are very few exceptions to the First Amendment, and “incitement to imminent lawless action” is one of them. In the wake of former President Donald Trump’s impeachment trial over his alleged incitement of the Jan. 6 violence at the U.S Capitol, this obscure legal doctrine has captured headlines.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we discuss the incitement doctrine, and whether Trump’s Jan. 6 speech amounted to incitement, with First Amendment scholar and FIRE Legal Fellow David L. Hudson Jr. He is an Assistant Professor of Law at Belmont University and the Justice Robert H. Jackson Legal Fellow at FIRE.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 130 Stonewalling by the University of California Feb 25, 2021

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we explore a multi-year public records odyssey at the University of California, Los Angeles involving former Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, a campus appearance, administrative stonewalling, and, finally, a successful lawsuit filed by FIRE.

And, on the eve of Student Press Freedom Day, we learn about the challenges student journalists face accessing public records in the University of California system and why access to such records is important for democracy and for student journalists to fulfill their watchdog role.

Show notes:

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 129 ‘The Fight for Free Speech’ with Ian Rosenberg Feb 11, 2021

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by media lawyer Ian Rosenberg to discuss his new book, “The Fight for Free Speech: Ten Cases That Define Our First Amendment Freedoms.”

Rosenberg is assistant chief counsel at ABC, Inc., where he has provided pre-broadcast counsel for ABC News clients on libel, newsgathering, intellectual property, and FCC regulatory issues since 2003.

Show notes:

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 128 John McWhorter says academics are really, really worried Jan 28, 2021

Last summer, Columbia University Professor John McWhorter wrote that he was receiving missives almost daily “from professors living in constant fear for their career because their opinions” are incompatible with campus orthodoxies. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we catch up with McWhorter to discuss how the culture has changed (or not) since The Atlantic published his article, “Academics Are Really, Really Worried About Their Freedom.”

McWhorter is a member of FIRE’s Board of Directors and the host of the popular Lexicon Valley podcast.

Show notes:

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 127 What happened to American childhood? with Kate Julian and Greg Lukianoff Jan 14, 2021

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by senior editor at The Atlantic Kate Julian and FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff to discuss rising rates of childhood depression, anxiety, and suicide.

How might these trends be connected to the way we parent our kids — and what do they mean for our wider society and for campus free speech?

Kate is the author of the 2020 Atlantic cover story, “What Happened To American Childhood?,” and this conversation is part of Greg’s “Catching up with Coddling” blog series, in which he reviews recent developments related to the themes of his co-authored 2018 book “The Coddling of the American Mind.”

Show notes:

Transcript
"Catching up with Coddling part seven: The #MustListen Kate Julian interview, ‘Runaway Homophily,’ and the second ‘Coddling’ Caveat" by Greg Lukianoff, Adam Goldstein, and Ryne Weiss
“What Happened To American Childhood” by Kate Julian
“The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas are Setting up a Generation for Failure” by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt
“Catching up with Coddling” blog series
“Why Are Young People Having So Little Sex” by Kate Julian
Greg’s book recommendation: “Love, Money, and Parenting: How Economics Explains the Way We Raise Our Kids” by Matthias Doepke and Fabrizio Zilibotti

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 126 Free speech after the Jan. 6 Capitol riot Jan 12, 2021

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Reason Magazine Senior Editor Robby Soave and FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff to discuss the Washington, DC Capitol riot of Jan. 6, 2021 and the effect it has had — and will have — on free speech, particularly speech on the internet.

Robby is the author of the forthcoming book “Tech Panic.”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 125 National Review’s Charles C.W. Cooke Dec 10, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino is joined by the editor of NationalReview.com, Charles C.W. Cooke, to discuss free speech philosophy, Christopher Hitchens, the October murder of a school teacher in France, and recent attacks on Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.

Show notes:

Transcript
“Hate Speech and the Limits of Free Expression,” a Kenyon College panel (video)
“What ‘Snowflakes’ Get Right About Free Speech” by Ulrich Baer
Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (video)
“Free Speech Without Apologies” by Charles C.W. Cooke

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 124 ‘Burning the Books’ with Richard Ovenden Dec 01, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino is joined by Richard Ovenden to discuss his new book, “Burning the Books: A History of the Deliberate Destruction of Knowledge.”Ovenden is the Director of the Bodleian Libraries at the University of Oxford and a Fellow of Balliol College. In 2019, he was awarded the Order of the British Empire.

Show notes:

Transcript

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 123 Campus mobs, heckler’s vetoes, racial segregation, and a rogue student government! Nov 13, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by FIRE’s Robert Shibley and Adam Goldstein to discuss recent cases of censorship — and a case of racial segregation — on campus.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 122 U.S Constitution masterclass with Judge Douglas Ginsburg Oct 29, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Senior Circuit Judge Douglas H. Ginsburg for a masterclass on the history of the U.S. Constitution.

Judge Ginsburg was appointed to the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia in 1986 and served as that court’s Chief Judge from 2001-2008. He is also a Professor of Law at George Mason University and the host of the new PBS television series about the U.S. Constitution, “A More or Less Perfect Union, A Personal Exploration by Judge Douglas Ginsburg.”

Show notes:

Transcript
“A More or Less Perfect Union” is available via Amazon (Prime), the Free to Choose Network, and PBS.
Judge Ginsburg recommended book: From Parchment to Power: How James Madison Used the Bill of Rights to Save the Constitution
Judge Ginsburg in conversation with America’s founding fathers (video)
New FIRE documentary, “Mighty Ira: A Civil Liberties Story,” now streaming via Amazon (Prime), iTunes, Google Play, and YouTube Movies.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 121 Hugh M. Hefner First Amendment Awards Oct 15, 2020

Since 1980, the Hugh M. Hefner First Amendment Awards have recognized those who go above and beyond to protect and enhance First Amendment rights.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Christie Hefner, who founded and chairs the awards, to discuss the awards’ origins and this year’s awardees in the categories of law, book publishing, journalism, arts & entertainment, education, and lifetime achievement.

From 1988 to 2008, Christie Hefner — daughter of Playboy founder Hugh Hefner — was Chairman and CEO of Playboy Enterprises, making her the longest-serving female CEO of a U.S. public company. For three years, she appeared on Forbes’ “100 Most Powerful Women” list.

Show notes:

Attend: 2020 Hugh M. Hefner First Amendment Awards, Oct. 19 6 p.m. ET
2020 Hugh M. Hefner First Amendment awardees
MightyIra.com (Ira Glasser documentary)
“Rap on Trial: Race, Lyrics, and Guilt in America” (So to Speak podcast)
Immigration Nation documentary

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 120.1 Mighty Ira documentary watch-along Oct 12, 2020

Watch-along as Co-Director Nico Perrino narrates the new documentary film about the life and career of former ACLU Executive Director Ira Glasser, “Mighty Ira: A Civil Liberties Story.”

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 120 ‘Mighty Ira’ Glasser Oct 12, 2020

Former ACLU Executive Director Ira Glasser discusses the new film about his life and career, “Mighty Ira: A Civil Liberties Story.”The film, now in “virtual cinema,” makes the case for robust free speech protections amidst the “tough” cases, including the 1978 Skokie case and Charlottesville. Along the way, viewers will also learn about Glasser’s growing up in Brooklyn, his friendship with William F. Buckley Jr., his path to the ACLU, which led through Senator Bobby Kennedy’s office, and more.A May 2017 So to Speak interview with Glasser was the inspiration for the Mighty Ira documentary, and this interview is a reflection on some of what has happened since.

Show notes:

Transcript
MightyIra.com
Watch Mighty Ira in virtual cinema through Angelika Film Center
“Traveling Hopefully,” 1981 documentary about ACLU Founder Roger Baldwin
“Inherit the Wind,” 1960 film about ACLU “Scopes monkey trial” case
Watch-along episode as Co-Director Nico Perrino narrates Mighty Ira

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 119 2020 College Free Speech Rankings Oct 01, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, FIRE Senior Research Fellow Sean Stevens joins us to discuss the “2020 College Free Speech Rankings: What’s the Climate for Free Speech on America’s College Campuses?”

The rankings are based on the largest free speech survey of college students ever performed, which collected the views of 20,000 students. We discuss the best and worst colleges for free speech and other interesting data points from the survey: For example, 31% of students don’t believe President Donald Trump should be allowed on campus to share his views. And 22% said the same of former Vice President Joe Biden.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 118 David Goldberger, lead attorney in “the Skokie case” Sep 17, 2020

He is most widely known for his role as lead attorney in what’s simply become known as “the Skokie case.”

But David Goldberger’s storied legal career goes far beyond his representation of neo-Nazis who wanted to rally in a village where a large number of Holocaust survivors lived.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Goldberger to discuss his half century of practice in First Amendment law — including his four (successful) trips to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Show notes:

Transcript
Anew FIRE documentary film, “Mighty Ira: A Civil Liberties Story” (featuring David Goldberger)
“The Skokie case: How I came to represent the free speech rights of Nazis” by David Goldberger
Cutter v. Wilkinson (2005)
McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission (1995)
Capitol Square Review and Advisory Bd v. Pinette (1995)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 117 What a summer … Aug 14, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by FIRE’s Robert Shibley and Samantha Harris to discuss a whirlwind summer: FIRE has fielded a record number of requests for help, and this week the Department of Education’s much-anticipated new Title IX regulations go into effect. There’s also “cancel culture.”

Show notes:

FIRE’s recent cases
“Law alone can’t protect free speech” by Greg Lukianoff and Adam Goldstein
“In memoriam: Professor Mike Adams, 1964-2020” by Robert Shibley
“What do you think of cancel culture?” by Nick Cave

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 116 ‘Journal of Controversial Ideas’ with Prof. Peter Singer Aug 05, 2020

Princeton Professor Peter Singer has been called “the world’s most influential living philosopher.” But he may be as controversial as he is influential.

It’s perhaps fitting then that he is a founding editor of a new academic publication called the Journal of Controversial Ideas. The journal claims to be the world’s “first open access, peer-reviewed interdisciplinary journal specifically created to promote free inquiry on controversial topics.”

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Professor Singer to discuss the journal, academic freedom, and his own personal brushes with controversy.

A transcript of this episode can be found at this link.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 115 ‘Dare to Speak’ with PEN America’s Suzanne Nossel Jul 21, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we are joined by PEN America CEO Suzanne Nossel to discuss campus censorship, cancel culture, how different generations think about free speech, the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in 2015, and more. Nossel is the author of the forthcoming book, “Dare to Speak: Defending Free Speech for All.”

Show notes:

Transcript
Bari Weiss’ resignation letter; Andrew Sullivan’s “farewell letter” for New York magazine
So to Speak podcast: Debating “Is there a campus free speech crisis?” with Andrew Sullivan, Jonathan Haidt, Suzanne Nossel, Jeffrey Sachs, & Kmele Foster
“The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure” by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt
Harper’s: “A letter on justice and open debate”
“Does apologizing work? An empirical test of the conventional wisdom” by Richard Hanania
“Why we’re honoring Charlie Hebdo” by Andrew Solomon and Suzanne Nossel

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 114 Glenn Loury objects Jul 08, 2020

As protests against racial injustice continue across America, colleges and universities are increasingly speaking out in support of the protests. What’s more, some are also taking action to investigate or punish faculty critical of the protesters’ perceived aims.

What does this mean for academic freedom and freedom of speech? And does this signal a shift away from the idea, best exemplified by the University of Chicago’s Kalven Report, that there should be a “heavy presumption against the university taking collective action or expressing opinions on the political and social issues of the day?”

To discuss, we are joined by Glenn Loury, Merton P. Stoltz Professor of the Social Sciences at Brown University, who objected to a letter about the protests sent by Brown’s senior administrators.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Rebroadcast: How Daryl Davis, a black man, defeats the Ku Klux Klan with open dialogue Jun 24, 2020

This episode is a rebroadcast from March 2017. “If you spend five minutes with your worst enemy, you will find you have something in common,” said Daryl Davis. “If you spend 10 minutes, you’ll find you even have more in common. And the more you find that you have in common and build upon those things, the less the things that you have in contrast will begin to matter, like skin color.” Since the early 90s, Davis, a black man, has taken up the curious pastime of befriending members of the Ku Klux Klan. The result? He has dozens of Klan robes at his home that were given to him by former Klan members who shed their racist beliefs after meeting him. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we explore how open dialogue and debate have shown Davis a path toward a more tolerant future. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 113 Charlottesville reflections with Rodney Smolla Jun 04, 2020

During the summer of 2017, a fierce dispute over the removal of Confederate monuments in Charlottesville, Va. captured national attention.

The events that summer led to racial animosity and heated debate over our nation’s history and the First Amendment, and threw one historic city into turmoil, ultimately culminating in death and tragedy during the weekend of Aug. 11.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we are joined by Rodney Smolla to reflect on what happened in Charlottesville. Smolla is Dean and Professor of Law at the Delaware Law School of Widener University. He is also the author of a new book, “Confessions of a Free Speech Lawyer: Charlottesville and the Politics of Hate.”

Editor’s note: This podcast was recorded on Wednesday, May 20, prior to the protests that began last week surrounding policing and race in America. Had these events taken place before our recording, they almost certainly would have been addressed, as there are many dots to connect between Charlottesville and our current moment, especially as they relate to race, the police, and our First Amendment rights.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 112 College social media censorship May 21, 2020

A new FIRE report finds that 77% of public colleges and universities use a blacklist of secret words to censor comments on their Facebook pages. What’s more, 87% of them block particular users on Facebook or Twitter.

How do these blacklists work? How were they discovered? And do they violate the First Amendment?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino is joined by the director of FIRE’s Individual Rights Defense Program, Adam Steinbaugh. He is the author of “No Comment: Public Universities’ Social Media Use and the First Amendment.”

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 111 'Dear Colleague,' due process now required. Title IX rules analysis. May 08, 2020

On Wednesday, the Department of Education published its long-awaited new Title IX regulations.

Over the years — and with the federal government’s prodding — Title IX has been twisted and used to justify censorship and the denial of core due process rights for those accused of sexual misconduct on America’s college campus. The new regulations will better protect certain free speech and due process rights long denied to students.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino is joined by FIRE Executive Director Robert Shibley and FIRE Senior Fellow Samantha Harris for a deep-dive analysis of the new regulations and the history of Title IX abuse on campus.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 110 The Constitution in the age of coronavirus w/ Prof. Josh Blackman Apr 28, 2020

With much of the country under stay-at-home orders due to COVID-19, what do these orders mean for the five freedoms of the First Amendment?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino and constitutional law expert Josh Blackman will break it all down. Blackman is a professor of law at the South Texas College of Law in Houston and the author of three books, including his recently co-authored book with Professor Randy E. Barnett, “An Introduction to Constitutional Law: 100 Supreme Court Cases Everyone Should Know.”

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
John Adams’ second annual address to Congress, December 8, 1798
“The Right to Protest During the Pandemic,” National Coalition Against Censorship coalition statement
“Are Quarantine Orders Constitutional?,” by Mark Miller, Pacific Legal Foundation
“If Liquor Stores Are Essential, Why Isn’t Church?,” by Michael W. McConnell and Max Raskin
First Amendment News 251: Public health and the First Amendment in the age of COVID-19

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 109 Censorship pandemic Apr 16, 2020

For authoritarian leaders across the globe, the coronavirus emergency presents an opportunity to silence critics and consolidate power.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino is joined by international free expression experts Jacob Mchangama and Sarah McLaughlin to discuss how countries like Turkey, Hungary, Egypt, and Thailand are banning “fake news” amidst the pandemic — but, in doing so, are making the crisis worse.

Mchangama is the executive director of Justitia, a Copenhagen-based think tank focused on human rights and the rule of law. He is also the host and producer of the podcast Clear and Present Danger: A History of Free Speech. McLaughlin is the director of Targeted Advocacy at FIRE.

Show notes:

“Coronavirus has started a censorship pandemic” by Jacob Mchangama and Sarah McLaughlin
Clear and Present Danger podcast: A conversation with Monika Bickert, Head of Global Policy Management at Facebook
Podcast: “The Great Influenza: The story of the deadliest pandemic in history,” a lecture by John M. Barry
“Hospitals must let doctors and nurses speak out,” an interview with Nicholas Christakis by Conor Friedersdorf
“Responding to ‘Zoombombing’: Best practices for students and faculty” by FIRE’s Alex Morey
FIRE statement on protecting academic freedom and freedom of expression in virtual classrooms

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 108 A history of (dis)information wars in the Soviet Union and beyond Apr 02, 2020

How and why do authoritarian regimes seek to control information? On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino is joined by University of Maryland Associate Professor Cynthia L. Martin to explore how one country, the former Soviet Union, restricted access to information and stifled dissent — and what changed when that regime collapsed in 1991.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible: The Surreal Heart of the New Russia
Cato Institute lecture: Stalin’s Propaganda and Putin’s Information Wars, featuring Princeton University Professor Stephen Kotkin
Call for Proposals: 2020 FIRE Faculty Conference

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 107.1 "Coronavirus and the failure of the ‘Marketplace of Ideas’" Mar 20, 2020

"Coronavirus and the failure of the ‘Marketplace of Ideas’" by Foundation for Individual Rights in Education President & CEO Greg Lukianoff, as read by Susan Kruth.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 107 FIRE, the coronavirus, and the failure of the ‘Marketplace of Ideas’ Mar 20, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino sits down with FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff to discuss how FIRE is adapting to the coronavirus outbreak. We also explore the ideas behind Greg’s new, widely discussed article, “Coronavirus and the failure of the ‘Marketplace of Ideas’.”

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 106 ‘Free speech and justified true belief’ w/ prof. Joseph Blocher Mar 19, 2020

Why is it important that we protect freedom of speech?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino speaks with Duke University School of Law professor Joseph Blocher, who argues that one of the most common justifications for free speech — creating a “marketplace of ideas” in our search for truth — rests on unstable ground in our “post-truth” era. In his article, “Free Speech and Justified True Belief,” Blocher argues for a reframing of this epistemic theory of free speech around knowledge, rather than truth.

Nico and Blocher are joined in their discussion by frequent guest and First Amendment News Editor Ronald K.L. Collins.

Show notes:

Video of conversation

Podcast transcript

“Coronavirus and the failure of the ‘Marketplace of Ideas’” by Greg Lukianoff

“Bans” by Joseph Blocher

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 105 ‘Rap on Trial’ Mar 05, 2020

At a time when artistic expression has never enjoyed greater First Amendment protection, rap music has seemingly been left behind. Rap lyrics are routinely used as evidence by police and prosecutors to justify arresting and charging suspects for all manner of alleged crimes.

In their new book, “Rap on Trial: Race, Lyrics, and Guilt in America,” authors Erik Nielson and Andrea L. Dennis identify approximately 500 cases where the violent and aggressive themes within rap lyrics were used against defendants in court.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino speaks with Nielson and Dennis about their book, in which they argue that no other form of creative expression — or genre of music — is treated the same way as rap by the law. “That’s why we call this book ‘Rap on Trial.’ It’s not art on trial. It’s not music on trial. It’s rap on trial.”

Read the podcast transcript.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 104 Violent video games with Villanova Professor Patrick M. Markey Feb 20, 2020

Do violent video games make people more violent?

Amid calls to censor or restrict access to violent video games because of their perceived contributions to violent events (such as school shootings), the question is as important as ever.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino explores this question. He is joined by FIRE’s resident video game expert (and FIRE staffer) Ryne Weiss and Villanova University professor Patrick M. Markey. Markey is the co-author with Christopher J. Ferguson of Moral Combat: Why the War on Violent Video Games is Wrong.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (2011)
“Addiction and expression” by Luke Morgan (Hastings Constitutional Law Quarterly)
The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 103 Guns, addiction, and the press Feb 06, 2020

Is carrying a weapon during a political demonstration protected by the First Amendment?

What about intentionally creating an addictive video game?

Does the First Amendment’s press clause require the existence of news outlets?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we explore these three topics and more with First Amendment scholar Luke Morgan, who has written three fascinating articles that examine the scope of the First Amendment’s protections:

“Leave your guns at home: The constitutionality of a prohibition on carrying firearms at political demonstrations” (Duke Law Journal)
“Addiction and expression” (Hastings Constitutional Law Quarterly)
“The broken branch: Capitalism, the Constitution, and the press” (forthcoming)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 102 Cultural sites, slurs, antisemitism, and Title IX Jan 22, 2020

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perrino is joined by his FIRE colleagues Robert Shibley, Samantha Harris, and Will Creeley to discuss:

the firing of a faculty member at Babson College for a satirical Facebook post;
the punishment of two students at the University of Connecticut for the use of a racial epithet;
an executive order on antisemitism;
and upcoming regulations on Title IX.

Recorded on Jan. 15.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 101 McCarthyism and The Red Scare Jan 02, 2020

“Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?”On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we explore how America’s fear of communism in the early- to mid-20th century led to firings and blacklists in Hollywood, government, and higher education — and how these actions compromised America’s treasured principles of free speech, free conscience, free association, and due process of law.We are joined by Ellen Schrecker, a former professor at Yeshiva University and the author of Many Are the Crimes: McCarthyism in America and No Ivory Tower: McCarthyism and the Universities.

Click here for podcast transcript.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

The 100th episode: The state of free speech in America Dec 12, 2019

On today’s edition of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we celebrate 100 episodes by bringing back on the show popular past guests for a wide-ranging discussion on the state of free speech in America.

Joining us are:

Jonathan Rauch, senior fellow, Brookings Institution
Nadine Strossen, professor, New York Law School, past president of the ACLU (1991-2008)
Bob Corn-Revere, partner, Davis Wright Tremaine
Greg Lukianoff, president & CEO, Foundation for Individual Rights in Education

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Video of the conversation
Remarks by mother of Heather Heyer at Open Future Festival Chicago
“Offices and Gentlemen” by Jonathan Rauch

Ep. 99 John Stuart Mill’s ‘On Liberty’ Nov 26, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by professor Dale E. Miller to discuss the life and philosophy of the English philosopher John Stuart Mill, whose 1859 essay “On Liberty” is a classic text — maybe the classic text — defending the principles of free expression.

Miller is a professor and associate dean for research and graduate studies at Old Dominion University. He is the author of J.S. Mill: Moral, Social, and Political Thought.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
The text of John Stuart Mill’s “On Liberty”
The Liberty Fund’s collected works of John Stuart Mill
Dale E. Miller’s website: www.drdaleemiller.net

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 98 ‘The First Amendment in the Trump Era’ w/ Professor Timothy Zick Nov 14, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by William & Mary Law School Professor Timothy Zick to discuss his new book, “The First Amendment in the Trump Era.”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 97 There’s no such thing as free speech, argues Stanley Fish Oct 31, 2019

Does free speech exist?

According to Cardozo Law Professor Stanley Fish, it does not.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we dig into what the colorful professor means by this assertion and discuss his forthcoming book, “The First: How to Think About Hate Speech, Campus Speech, Religious Speech, Fake News, Post-Truth, and Donald Trump.”

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
“There’s No Such Thing As Free Speech: And It’s a Good Thing, Too” by Stanley Fish
“Areopagitica” by John Milton
“Leviathan” by Thomas Hobbes
New York Times v. Sullivan (1964)
“Absence of Malice” (1981) movie
“Inherit the Wind” (1960) movie
“The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” by Thomas S. Kuhn
“In defense of the NBA: The league has every right to come down hard on critics of China who work for it” by Stanley Fish

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 96 Who was Hayden C. Covington? Oct 17, 2019

He brought 45 First Amendment cases to the United States Supreme Court between 1939 and 1955. His success rate before the court was second only to future Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall. He handled as many as 50 major cases a year and is responsible for much of the First Amendment doctrine we take for granted today. Who was this man — and why have most free speech scholars and activists never heard of him?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we discuss the life and legacy of Hayden C. Covington, who for many years was legal counsel for the Jehovah’s Witnesses. We are joined by distinguished First Amendment scholar and recurring So to Speak guest Ronald K.L. Collins. Collins is the author of the Florida International University Law Review article “Thoughts on Hayden C. Covington and the Paucity of Litigation Scholarship.”

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Video of podcast interview
“Thoughts on Hayden C. Covington and the Paucity of Litigation Scholarship” by Ronald K.L. Collins
Cases discussed: Minersville School District v. Gobitis (1940), Chaplinksy v. New Hampshire (1942), West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943), Virginia State Board of Pharmacy v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council (1976)
Ronald K.L. Collins’ First Amendment News
“First Things First: A Modern Coursebook on Free Speech Fundamentals” by Ronald K.L. Collins, Will Creeley, and David Hudson (managing editor, Jackie Farmer)
“We Must Not Be Afraid to Be Free: Stories of Free Expression in America” by Ronald K.L Collins & Sam Chaltain

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 95 Twenty years of FIRE with co-founder Harvey Silverglate Oct 03, 2019

In 1999, criminal defense attorney Harvey Silverglate joined with University of Pennsylvania Professor Alan Charles Kors to found the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we connect with Silverglate at his office in Cambridge, Mass. to discuss FIRE’s founding, the origins of his interest in campus civil liberties, and what he sees for his creation’s future.

Join FIRE in celebrating our 20th anniversary in New York City on Oct. 24. The event will feature a keynote address from author Salman Rushdie.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Short, FIRE-produced documentary about Harvey Silverglate
“The Shadow University: The Betrayal of Liberty on America’s Campuses” by Alan Charles Kors and Harvey Silverglate
“Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent” by Harvey Silverglate

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 94 Kevin Williamson’s ‘The Smallest Minority’ Sep 16, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, journalist Kevin Williamson joins us to discuss his new book, “The Smallest Minority: Independent Thinking in the Age of Mob Politics.”

Williamson is the roving correspondent for National Review and co-host of the podcast Mad Dogs & Englishmen.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
“When the Twitter Mob Came for Me” by Kevin Williamson
FIRE’s High School Curriculum
FIRE’s Free Speech Essay Contest

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 93 ‘Coddling’ one year later Sep 05, 2019

One year ago this week, “The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure” was published.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we sit down with FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff, who co-authored the book with Jonathan Haidt, to reflect on what’s changed — or hasn’t changed — in the intervening year.

Show notes:

TheCoddling.com
“College suggests students respond to ‘offensive’ language with ‘ouch!’”
Media coverage of Greg’s talk in Italy (in Italian)
“Five ways university presidents can prove their commitment to free speech” by Greg Lukianoff
Study: “The Hidden Tribes of America”
Documentary: “Can We Take a Joke?”

Greg’s book references/recommendations:

“Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis” by Robert Putnam
“Love, Money & Parenting” by Matthias Doepke and Fabrizio Zilibotti
“Achtung Baby” by Sara Zaske
“So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed” by Jon Ronson

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 92 Free speech, privacy, and President Trump’s Twitter account w/ Alex Abdo Aug 22, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Knight First Amendment Institute Litigation Director Alex Abdo to discuss free speech, privacy, and President Donald Trump’s Twitter account.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 91 ‘The Grievance Studies Affair’ Aug 08, 2019

Last fall, three writers and scholars announced they had submitted 20 fake papers to academic journals to test whether — as they suspected — certain fields of study lacked scientific and academic rigor.

Of the 20 papers they submitted before revealing their hoax, seven were accepted, four published, seven were “still in play,” and six were retired. The result is what’s become known as the “Grievance Studies Affair.”

But what does their experiment prove, exactly?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we put this question directly to Jim Lindsay, Helen Pluckrose, and Peter Boghossian, who authored the controversial papers.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 90 ‘David French-ism’ Jul 24, 2019

National Review senior writer and former FIRE President David French has become an “-ism.”

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, French joins us to discuss “David French-ism” and “the battle dividing conservatives” over civil liberties.

Also joining us is FIRE’s current President & CEO Greg Lukianoff, author of The New York Times bestseller “The Coddling of the American Mind,” due out in paperback on Aug. 20.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Podcast video
“Against David French-ism” by Sohrab Ahmari
“In defense of French-ism” by David French
“Against conservative cultural defeatism” by David French
“How free speech died on campus” by Sohrab Ahmari
Greg’s book recommendations: “The Shadow University” by Alan Kors and Harvey Silverglate, “Mere civility” by Teresa Bejan, “The Hollow Men” by Charles Sykes

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 89 Prof. Samuel Abrams wrote an op-ed encouraging viewpoint diversity. Then came the fallout. Jul 11, 2019

His office door was vandalized. He was accused of causing “harm” to his “college community.” There was even a demand — supported by dozens of his faculty peers — to review his tenure.Why? Because he wrote an op-ed in The New York Times arguing for more viewpoint diversity at his campus.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, Sarah Lawrence College professor Samuel Abrams joins us to discuss the response to his op-ed and the future of academic freedom, viewpoint diversity, and the role of faculty in college life.Also joining us is FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff, author of The New York Times bestseller “The Coddling of the American Mind,” due out in paperback edition on Aug. 20.

Show notes:

“Think professors are liberal? Try school administrators” by Samuel Abrams
“When students want to review a tenured professor”
“DEMANDS: Westlands sit-in 50 years of shame”
“Faculty members need to reassert themselves as the people who direct discourse on campus (opinion)” by Samuel Abrams
Viewpoint diversity on campus: A Heterodox Academy & FIRE panel discussion

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 88 Defending libraries with James LaRue Jun 27, 2019

Community libraries have always been a target for would-be censors — and the past few months are no exception.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we explore past and present challenges to library content, and the unique role libraries play historically as bastions for free inquiry.

We are joined by James LaRue, an award-winning librarian and the former director of the American Library Association’s Office for Intellectual Freedom and the Freedom to Read Foundation.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 87 Intellectual property 101 Jun 13, 2019

The Constitution grants Congress the power “[t]o promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”

However, figuring out how Congress actually does this can be confusing.

Copyrights, trademarks, patents, trade secrets, fair use?

What do they all mean?

Today’s episode of So to Speak is all about simplifying intellectual property law for you — and explaining why free speech advocates should care about it. We are joined by FIRE Program Officer Adam Goldstein, who helps us break it all down.

A video of this interview can be found on FIRE’s YouTube channel.

Podcast transcript.

Adam’s recommended additional reading:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 86 Words, Violence, and Censorship at Williams College May 30, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we are joined by Williams College Professor of Biology Luana Maroja.

Professor Maroja’s experience growing up under a dictatorship in Brazil led her to become an outspoken advocate for free speech at Williams College and a skeptic of the idea that words are violence.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Relevant writings from Professor Maroja:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 85 Wen Fa of the Pacific Legal Foundation May 16, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by Wen Fa, an attorney with the Pacific Legal Foundation who regularly litigates free speech cases. One of his most high-profile cases was the 2018 Supreme Court case Minnesota Voters Alliance v. Mansky, dealing with a polling-place dress code in Minnesota.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 84 The fight to publish Allen Ginsberg’s ‘Howl’ May 02, 2019

“I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness.”

So begins Allen Ginsberg’s famous poem “Howl.” You might be familiar with Allen Ginsberg. You might be familiar with the poem. But chances are you don’t know about the efforts in San Francisco in 1957 to censor the poem.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we discuss those efforts with distinguished First Amendment scholar and recurring So to Speak guest Ronald K.L. Collins. He is the co-author, with David M. Skover, of the new book, “The People v. Ferlinghetti: The Fight to Publish Allen Ginsberg’s HOWL,” which recounts the story behind the publication of “Howl” and the courageous fight against its censorship.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 83 Mustafa Akyol on jailing journalists in Turkey, ‘re-educating’ Uyghurs in China, and cultural conformity in America Apr 18, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we sit down with Cato Institute Senior Fellow Mustafa Akyol to discuss threats to freedom of thought and expression around the world, with a particular focus on situations in Turkey and China.

Akyol has been described by CNN’s Fareed Zakaria as “Turkey’s finest political analyst.” Prior to joining Cato, he was a senior fellow at The Freedom Project at Wellesley College, where he learned a thing or two about illiberalism in America. He is also a regular contributing opinion writer for The New York Times.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Bios and bibliographies: http://www.mustafaakyol.org/, https://www.cato.org/people/mustafa-akyol, https://www.nytimes.com/column/mustafa-akyol
FIRE Investigates: An (il)liberal arts education at Wellesley College
“China’s Gulag for Muslims”
“One Month, 500,000 Face Scans: How China is Using A.I. to Profile a Minority”
“The New Gulag Archipelago: How China “Reeducates” the Uyghurs and Why the World Should Be Alarmed” (Video of Cato Institute panel)

www.sotospeakpodcast.comFollow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 82 ‘Can free speech be progressive?’ Apr 04, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we ask the question, “can free speech be progressive?”

Our guest is Louis Michael Seidman. He is the Carmack Waterhouse Professor of Constitutional Law at Georgetown Law and the author of the much-discussed 2018 Columbia Law Review article “Can Free Speech Be Progressive?”

Click here for a transcript of the podcast.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 81 Techdirt’s Mike Masnick Mar 21, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we speak with Techdirt.com founder and editor Mike Masnick.

Since founding Techdirt in 1997, Masnick has written nearly 50,000 blog posts for the publication and covered many of tech’s hottest free speech controversies. He even coined the phrase “Streisand Effect.”

In this conversation, we discuss some of the issues Masnick has recently written about for Techdirt, including defamation lawsuits and content moderation. We also ask Mike about the founding of Techdirt, the culture for free speech in Silicon Valley, the fear surrounding new technologies, and, of course, the story behind the Streisand Effect.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 80 Ten Worst Colleges for Free Speech: 2019 Mar 07, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, FIRE staffers discuss our 2019 list of the 10 Worst Colleges for Free Speech.

Participants in this show are:

Nico Perrino, host of So to Speak, director of communications
Will Creeley, senior vice president of legal and public advocacy
Adam Steinbaugh, director of FIRE’s Individual Rights Defense Program
Sarah McLaughlin, senior program officer for legal and public advocacy

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 79 Former FEC Chairman Bradley Smith Feb 21, 2019

Former Federal Election Commission Chairman Bradley A. Smith is perhaps best known for opposing many campaign finance regulations on First Amendment grounds. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we talk with the former chairman about how political campaign activity is regulated in America and how this regulation implicates the First Amendment. We also explore some of today’s hot-button campaign finance controversies.

Smith is a professor of law at Capital University Law School in Columbus, Ohio. From 2000 until 2005, he served as a FEC commissioner. He was FEC chairman in 2004 and vice chairman in 2003. In 2005, Smith founded the Center for Competitive Politics, now known as the Institute for Free Speech.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Cases: Buckley v. Valeo (1976), Randall v. Sorrell (2006) Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission (2010), Speechnow.org v. FEC (2010), McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commission (2014)
Timeline: The history of campaign finance regulation
Faulty Assumptions and the Undemocratic Consequences of Campaign Finance Reform by Bradley A. Smith (1996)
Unfree Speech: The Folly of Campaign Finance Reform by Bradley A. Smith (2009)
Stormy weather for campaign-finance laws
National Enquirer didn’t commit a crime by killing Trump affair stories

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 78 LGBT equality and the First Amendment Feb 07, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we speak with Rutgers Law School Professor Carlos Ball about his book, “The First Amendment and LGBT Equality: A Contentious History.”

During this conversation, we explore the history of how LGBT activists utilized the First Amendment to secure their rights, why Professor Ball considers that history “contentious,” and how debates surrounding liberty and equality have roiled America for over a century and continue to drive conversations about LGBT rights today.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
The First Amendment and LGBT Equality: A Contentious History
Cases: Roth v. United States (1957), One, Inc. v. Olesen (1958), Manual Enterprises, Inc. v. Day, Postmaster General (1962), Bowers v. Hardwick (1986), Romer v. Evans (1996), Boy Scouts of America v. Dale (2000), CLS v. Martinez (2010), Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission (2018)
Relevant past podcasts: Debating Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Jonathan Rauch’s “Kindly Inquisitors”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 77 Campus speech roundup: Art censorship, porn filters, speech restrictions abroad, and litigation victories Jan 24, 2019

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we are joined by four members of FIRE’s staff to discuss the latest campus free speech news, including two new FIRE initiatives to tackle art censorship and restrictions on free speech and academic freedom abroad.

Participants in this show are:

Nico Perrino, host of So to Speak, director of communications

Will Creeley, senior vice president of legal and public advocacy

Adam Steinbaugh, director of FIRE’s Individual Rights Defense Program

Marieke Tuthill Beck-Coon, director of litigation

Sarah McLaughlin, senior program officer for legal and public advocacy

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 76 From black armbands to the U.S. Supreme Court Jan 10, 2019

Her journey started with wearing a black armband to school and proceeded to the landmark United States Supreme Court case Tinker v. Des Moines Independent School District (1969). But it by no means stopped there: Mary Beth Tinker, namesake of the “Tinker” decision, continues to be a free speech icon.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we share with you an unabridged version of a 2016 conversation between Tinker and attorney Robert Corn-Revere, in which Tinker sheds light on her case and the state of student speech rights nearly 50 years later.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 75 Against ‘Free Speech’ with Anthony Leaker Dec 27, 2018

Against ‘Free Speech’ with Anthony Leaker

What does it mean to be “against ‘free speech?’”

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we speak with Anthony Leaker. Earlier this year he wrote an essay for Cato Unbound called “Against ‘Free Speech’,” in which he professes skepticism of the prevailing free speech narrative in the West and argues that it is often used as a Trojan Horse for far-right wing and fascist propaganda.

Leaker is a principal lecturer in cultural and critical theory at the University of Brighton in England.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 74 ‘The Half-Life of Facts’ with Samuel Arbesman Dec 13, 2018

Has every fact we’ve ever known undergone revision or reversal?

It’s a provocative and consequential idea, and one that complexity scientist Samuel Arbesman argues has some truth to it — even if he wouldn’t state it that strongly. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we talk with Arbesman about his 2012 book, The Half-Life of Facts: Why Everything We Know Has an Expiration Date.

If facts about our world are constantly shifting, shouldn’t the protection of free speech — the right to openly question the world and all we believe about it — become even more critical? We explore what, if any, implications Arbesman’s argument has for those who care about free speech and open inquiry.

Show notes:

“Undiscovered Public Knowledge” by Don R. Swanson

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 73 ‘Uncensored’ with Zachary Wood Nov 29, 2018

Zachary Wood has become comfortable with uncomfortable conversations. He’s engaged in them his entire life — with his mom who suffers from schizoaffective disorder, with his neighbors in Washington, D.C.’s impoverished Ward 8 community, and with his friends at the elite private high school he commuted four hours round trip to each day.

So when Wood arrived at Williams College in 2014, he was prepared for the uncomfortable learning that comes along with uncomfortable conversations about the world’s most important and controversial issues. Unfortunately, he was quick to learn not everyone was up for the challenge — including his college president.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we talk with Wood about his new memoir, Uncensored: My Life and Uncomfortable Conversations at the Intersection of Black and White America.

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Randall Kennedy So to Speak podcast
“Williams College Bars ‘Uncomfortable Learning’ Speaker from Campus, Declares ‘Hate Speech’ Too Uncomfortable”
“The Condescending Paternalism of Williams President Adam Falk”
The Chicago Statement
“In Response to the ‘Chicago Statement’ Petition” (Williams College student petition)

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 72 ‘Bodied’ with director Joseph Kahn Nov 13, 2018

“Words are weapons in the world’s most lyrical sport.”

That’s how competitive battle rap is described by the makers of “Bodied,” a new satirical film produced by Eminem about a college student who decides to write a thesis paper on battle rap and through a twist of fate finds himself becoming a prodigy in the sport.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we speak with“Bodied” director Joseph Kahn. Kahn is a filmmaker and Grammy-award winning music video director, who has directed videos for Taylor Swift, Imagine Dragons, Blink 182, Britney Spears, Maroon 5, and many other best-selling artists.

Kahn describes himself as a free speech absolutist. During the course of this conversation, we unpack what that means and take a look at the free speech interests in his new, controversial film.

Show notes:

Joseph Kahn podcast transcript
Bodied movie trailer: https://youtube.com/watch?v=oUry7CpMpCE
Bodied is in theaters now and will be available on YouTube Premium on Nov. 28
BodiedMovie.com
JosephKahn.com
“Joseph Kahn doesn’t care if he’s ‘canceled’” — Vulture, Nov. 2, 2018
“Power/Rangers (unauthorized NSFW bootleg)”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 71 Thinking about free speech in bets with Annie Duke Nov 01, 2018

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we discuss how decision-making, “information liquidity,” and luck fit into our daily lives — and how a solid understanding of these concepts can point to an underappreciated benefit of free expression.

Our guest is Annie Duke. She is a decision strategist, renowned poker player, and author of Thinking in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don’t Have All the Facts. Duke won more than $4 million in tournament poker during her career, and in 2004 she won the World Series of Poker Tournament of Champions.

Show notes:

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 70 Free speech in the digital age with Jameel Jaffer Oct 18, 2018

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we speak with Jameel Jaffer, executive director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University.

Jaffer and the Knight Institute seek to defend “the freedoms of speech and the press in the digital era through strategic litigation, research, and public education.”

Show notes:

Podcast transcript
Knight First Amendment Institute website
Clapper v. Amnesty International, the U.S. Supreme Court case Jaffer argued challenging the constitutionality of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
So to Speak podcast with Glenn Greenwald on free speech and privacy
Knight Institute v. Trump, the Knight Institute’s legal challenge to President Donald Trump’s blocking of critics on Twitter.
“Knight Institute calls on Facebook to lift restrictions on digital journalism and research”

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 69 Former Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. Oct 04, 2018

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we partner with the First Amendment Salon to present a conversation between former Solicitor General of the United States Donald B. Verrilli Jr. and University of Washington School of Law scholar Ronald Collins.

Verrilli was solicitor general of the United States from June 2011 to June 2016 and during that time he argued dozens of cases in front of the U.S. Supreme Court, including many First Amendment cases. He is now a partner with Munger, Tolles & Olson, and the founder of its Washington, D.C. office.

During this conversation, Verrilli and Collins discuss Verrilli’s advocacy in front of the Supreme Court on First Amendment cases and beyond. Verrilli also provides his take on the future of the court.

The First Amendment Salon is a quarterly gathering of members of the First Amendment community for a 90-minute discussion with leading thinkers concerning a timely topic related to freedom of expression.A video version of this and past First Amendment Salon conversations can be found on FIRE’s YouTube page. To learn more about the First Amendment Salon, visit the Salon’s archive on FIRE’s First Amendment Library.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcastEmail us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 68 'True threats' with David L. Hudson Jr. Sep 20, 2018

There are very few exceptions to the First Amendment, and a “true threat” is one of them.

But defining a true threat isn’t easy. Ever since the U.S. Supreme Court first examined true threats in the 1969 case Watts v. United States, it’s been a messy doctrine. The court didn’t provide a definition of a true threat until many years after Watts, and even then questions still remained.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we discuss the true threats doctrine with First Amendment scholar and FIRE Legal Fellow David L. Hudson Jr. He is the author of an ABA Journal article about true threats titled “When do rants exceed First Amendment boundaries and become true threats?”

Also, don’t miss Hudson tell the story of many important student free speech court cases as part of our “FIRE Starter” video series. You can watch the short videos on FIRE’s YouTube channel at YouTube.com/theFIREorg.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 67 ‘The Coddling of the American Mind’ Sep 04, 2018

Tribalism and group polarization are on the rise. So too are rates of anxiety, depression, and suicide. On campuses, professors and students are afraid to speak out. And on social media, outrage mobs rule the day.

How did we get here?

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we are joined by FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff to discuss his new co-authored book with New York University professor Jonathan Haidt, “The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure.”

It’s a social science detective story that seeks to explain “the growing inability of Americans to live, work, and cooperate across party lines” — and in this discussion, Greg points us toward all the clues.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Ep. 66 Outrage mobs in comedy Aug 23, 2018

Much has been written in recent months about online campaigns to get certain journalists, movie directors, and professors fired from their jobs because of things they said or wrote. Some campaigns have been successful. Some have not.

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we talk about how these outrage mobs affect the world of comedy — in particular, one comedy club in Long Island City, New York.

How should free speech advocates think about outrage mobs? Do they represent more speech, or a form of private censorship? Or is it more complicated?

This episode of So to Speak is presented in partnership with Comedy Cellar: Live From the Table. It features:

Nico Perrino, host, So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Noam Dworman, owner, The Comedy Cellar

Rebecca Trent, owner, The Creek and the Cave

Dan Naturman, comedian

Monroe Martin, comedian

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 65 Artificial intelligence & speech rights Aug 09, 2018

How should we think about speech rights in the age of artificial intelligence and advanced robotics?

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we are joined by First Amendment scholars Ronald Collins and David Skover. They are the authors of the new book, Robotica: Speech Rights & Artificial Intelligence.

From the printing press to the internet, advances in communications technology often upset the established order and spawn demands for censorship. There is little reason to suspect advances in artificial intelligence will be treated differently. As free speech advocates, how should we respond to these demands?

To answer that question, Collins and Skover argue that we need to take a step back and ask some more fundamental questions about the values we seek to advance in protecting speech in the first place.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 64 How censorship crosses borders with Jacob Mchangama Jul 25, 2018

On this episode of So to Speak, we chat with lawyer and free speech activist Jacob Mchangama. He is the founder and CEO of the Danish think tank Justitia, a visiting fellow at FIRE, and host of Clear and Present Danger: A History of Free Speech.

Mchangama is also the author of the lead essay for the Cato Institute’s June Cato Unbound online debate on the topic of “how censorship crosses borders.”

Our conversation focuses on the origins of Mchangama’s interest in free speech issues, the 2005 Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, the history of free speech, and the critiques of his Cato Unbound essay.

Show notes:

Mchangama’s podcast, Clear and Present Danger: A History of Free Speech

June Cato Unbound debate, “Free speech in international perspective”

Mchangama’s essays for Cato

So to Speak episode with Flemming Rose, who commissioned the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 63 Supreme Court review: Kennedy, Kavanaugh, and “weaponizing the First Amendment” Jul 11, 2018

Supreme Court review: Kennedy, Kavanaugh, and “weaponizing the First Amendment”

On this episode of So to Speak, we discuss President Donald Trump’s nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to the United States Supreme Court and what it might mean for the First Amendment. We also review Anthony Kennedy’s legacy, the free speech cases from this past Supreme Court term, and Justice Elena Kagan’s contention that some of her colleagues are “weaponizing the First Amendment.”

The guests on today’s show are:

Paul Sherman: Senior attorney, Institute for Justice

Bob Corn-Revere: Partner, Davis Wright Tremaine

Walter Olson: Senior fellow, Cato Institute

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 62 Most memorable FIRE cases Jun 27, 2018

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we take a trip down memory lane. We are joined by FIRE’s Greg Lukianoff, Samantha Harris, and Will Creeley to discuss memorable cases from FIRE’s 19-year history.

You can watch a video of this conversation on FIRE’s YouTube channel (youtube.com/thefireorg).

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 61 ‘HATE’ with Nadine Strossen Jun 13, 2018

The United States is unique in its protection of what some might label “hate speech.” Of course, certain expression is unprotected, like incitement to imminent lawless action and true threats. But expression that is deemed merely offensive or hateful is generally protected.

On this episode of So to Speak, we welcome back to the show former ACLU president and New York Law Professor Nadine Strossen. She is the author of “HATE: Why We Should Resist It With Free Speech, Not Censorship.” In this new book, she argues that America’s broad protections for hateful speech are a good thing, and that efforts to censor such speech has historically backfired or been proven ineffective.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 60 ‘Speak Freely’ with Professor Keith Whittington May 30, 2018

In February, Princeton University President Christopher Eisgruber announced that he will distribute copies of “Speak Freely: Why Universities Must Defend Free Speech” to all Princeton students and faculty as part of the university’s annual “Pre-read” program.

On this episode of So to Speak, our guest is Princeton University Professor Keith Whittington, who is the author of “Speak Freely.” We discuss the latest campus free speech news at Princeton and across the county.

We are also joined by FIRE Vice President of Policy Research Samantha Harris, who is a Princeton alumna and Professor Whittington’s former student.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 59 Debating ‘Is there a campus free speech crisis?’ with Sullivan, Haidt, Nossel, Sachs, & Foster May 16, 2018

Is there a campus free speech crisis?

In March, FIRE staff discussed the question. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we put the question to others and feature audio from a live debate that occurred on May 8 in New York City.

New York magazine’s Andrew Sullivan and New York University’s Jonathan Haidt argue, yes, there is a campus free speech crisis.

PEN America’s Suzanne Nossel and Acadia University’s Jeffrey Sachs argue, no, there is not.

Freethink’s Kmele Foster moderates.

The debate took place at The Village Underground and was sponsored by FIRE and the Comedy Cellar as a part of “The Underground Debate Series.”

Who do you think won the debate? Share your thoughts on social media and tag the podcast using @freespeechtalk on Twitter.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 58 ‘Lust on Trial’ with Amy Werbel May 03, 2018

Anthony Comstock is a name that has become synonymous with censorship in America.

In 1873, he founded the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice, and his career led to the confiscation or incineration of more than 3 million pieces of allegedly “obscene, lewd, or lascivious” material.

On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Fashion Institute of Technology Professor Amy Werbel about her new book, “Lust on Trial: Censorship and the Rise of American Obscenity in the Age of Anthony Comstock,” and the legacy of Comstock’s “Comstockery.”

Don’t forget! Join us on May 8 at the Comedy Cellar in New York City for a live debate: “Is there a campus free speech crisis?” Tickets are now available from comedycellar.com.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 57 Exploring threats to a free press with Laura Handman Apr 19, 2018

What are the greatest threats to a free press in America, and how have they changed in recent years?

On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Laura R. Handman, who is a partner at Davis Wright Tremaine and a co-chair of the firm’s appellate practice. For 30 years, she has worked on free press issues ranging from defamation to reporter’s privilege. Her media clients include National Public Radio, Atlantic Media, Dow Jones, The Economist, Amazon, Bloomberg, and many more.

Don’t forget! Join us on May 8 at the Comedy Cellar in New York City for a live debate: “Is there a campus free speech crisis?” Tickets are now available from comedycellar.com.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 56 Have you been defamed? Apr 05, 2018

In January, President Donald Trump called America’s libel laws “a sham and a disgrace.” Are they? On this episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we sit down with Ballard Spahr Senior Counsel Lee Levine to discuss what America’s libel “laws” really are — and are not.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 55 Is there a campus free speech crisis? Mar 27, 2018

Is there a campus free speech crisis? On this episode of So to Speak, Nico Perrino is joined by FIRE’s Will Creeley and Samantha Harris to discuss this simmering question.

Watch the video of this podcast recording: youtu.be/uoO6TCAQpaE

Additional reading:

“The ‘campus free speech crisis’ is a myth. Here are the facts.” by Jeffrey Adam Sachs

“Everything we think about the political correctness debate is wrong” by Matthew Yglesias

“The skeptics are wrong: Attitudes about free speech on campus are changing” by Sean Stevens and Jonathan Haidt

“White House forum discusses free speech on campus” by Robert Shibley/FIRE

“Gallup/Knight survey sheds light on changing student attitudes about free speech” by Nico Perrino/FIRE

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 54 Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission Mar 22, 2018

In 2012, a same-sex couple entered Masterpiece Cakeshop and asked its owner, Jack Phillips, to create a cake for their wedding reception in Denver, Colorado. Phillips declined the request, reportedly telling the couple, “Sorry guys, I don’t make cakes for same-sex weddings.”

That brief, 20-second exchange eventually found its way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where it is now the subject of one of the most controversial First Amendment cases in years. The issue before the court is whether applying Colorado's public accommodations law to compel Phillips to create a cake for a gay wedding violates the free speech or free exercise clauses of the First Amendment.

On this episode of So to Speak, we feature a First Amendment Salon debate about the case that occured last month.

Arguing on the side of Masterpiece Cakeshop are Robert Corn-Revere (Davis Wright Tremaine) and Ilya Shapiro (Cato Institute). Arguing on the side of the Colorado Civil Rights Commission are John Paul Schnapper-Casteras (Schnapper-Casteras PLLC) and Sarah Warbelow (Human Rights Campaign). The debate is moderated by American University Law School Professor Stephen Warmiel.

A video version of this and past First Amendment Salon conversations can be found on the Foundation for Individual rights in Education’s YouTube page (youtube.com/thefireorg).

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 53 Bret Weinstein, professor in exile Mar 08, 2018

Former Evergreen State College Professor Bret Weinstein describes himself as a “professor in exile.” The evolutionary biologist left Evergreen last September in the fallout from the controversy surrounding the school’s planned Day of Absence programming.

Weinstein’s objection to the programming led fifty students to disrupt his class and demand his resignation. The backlash became so intense that Evergreen’s chief of police told him she could not protect him from protesters. As a result, he had to hold his biology course in a public park.

On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Weinstein about his experience and the state of free speech and inquiry in higher education and beyond.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 52 The Great Firewall of China Feb 22, 2018

Most Americans are familiar with The Great Wall of China. Fewer are familiar with the Great Firewall of China.

The Firewall blocks vast expanses of the world’s web content — and it’s just one of the tools the Chinese government uses to monitor, censor, and even manipulate what its approximately 1.4 billion citizens see online.

On this episode of So to Speak, we explore one of the most extensive and effective censorship systems ever devised by a government. How does the Chinese government do it? And why?

For answers, we turn to the experts: “Charlie Smith,” the pseudonymous co-founder of anti-censorship group greatfire.org, working secretly in China; Jeremy Goldkorn, a co-founder of the Sinica Podcast and editor of supchina; and Bill Bishop, editor of the popular China policy newsletter Sinocism.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 51 University of Alaska President Emeritus Mark Hamilton Feb 08, 2018

In 2001, University of Alaska president Mark Hamilton made national headlines when he wrote a sternly worded memo declaring that freedom of speech on campus “CANNOT BE QUALIFIED” [emphasis original].

Hamilton retired from his position as University of Alaska president in 2010. However, his memo lives on in FIRE lore as the gold standard for a university president's response to a campus free speech controversy.

On this episode of So to Speak, we talk with Hamilton about his famous memo and what he makes of today’s campus free speech controversies. We also explore his illustrious career prior to becoming a university president, where he learned a thing or two about negotiation, talking across lines of difference, and defending the U.S. Constitution.

Hamilton has a master’s degree in English literature from Florida State University and taught English at West Point. He also spent 31 years in the U.S. Army, where he negotiated peace deals in El Salvador and Somalia, oversaw U.S. Army recruiting during the “be all you can be” era, and rose to the rank of Major General.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 50 Randall Kennedy on ‘The Forgotten Origins of the Constitution on Campus’ Jan 25, 2018

Has the history of how our constitutional rights came to be protected on campus been forgotten?

Professor Randall L. Kennedy believes it has. It’s a history even he wasn’t familiar with until recently. On this episode of So to Speak, Professor Kennedy explains how civil rights activists in the 1950s and 60s secured early victories for free speech, due process, and public assembly on high school and college campuses.

Professor Kennedy teaches courses on contracts, criminal law, and the regulation of race relations at Harvard Law School, and he is the author of “The Forgotten Origins of the Constitution on Campus.” Prior to arriving at Harvard, he was a law clerk for Justice Thurgood Marshall at the United States Supreme Court.

BONUS: Check out and subscribe to the new FIRE-sponsored podcast, Clear and Present Danger: A History of Free Speech.

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 49 “The Great Dissent” w/ Professor Thomas Healy Jan 11, 2018

Was our modern First Amendment born out of a chance encounter on a train bound for Boston in 1918?

On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Seton Hall Law Professor Thomas Healy. He argues that Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’ unlikely run-in with Judge Learned Hand in the summer of 1918 set off a series of events that culminated in a new trajectory for the First Amendment in America.

Professor Healy is the author of “The Great Dissent: How Oliver Wendell Holmes Changed His Mind — and Changed the History of Free Speech in America.” The book explores how one man who claimed to disdain all constitutional rights ended up breathing new meaning into our first one.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 48 ‘Natural Rights and the First Amendment’ w/ Jud Campbell Dec 28, 2017

Did the founders intend for the First Amendment to protect as much speech as it does today?

University of Richmond Assistant Professor of Law Jud Campbell argues probably not. He is the author of an article recently published in The Yale Law Journal that Cass Sunstein says “might well be the most illuminating work on the original understanding of free speech in a generation.”

In “Natural Rights and the First Amendment,” professor Campbell argues that the founders’ understanding of the freedoms of speech and of the press rested on “a multifaceted understanding of natural rights that no longer survives in American constitutional thought.” He contends that those rights “were expansive in scope but weak in their legal effect, allowing for restrictions of expression to promote the public good.”

On this episode of So to Speak, we investigate professor Campbell’s claims and wonder, if true, what — if anything — we should do about them.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 47 Institute for Justice President and General Counsel Scott Bullock Dec 13, 2017

The Institute for Justice doesn’t litigate your typical First Amendment cases.

They don’t take cases involving protest bans, controversial speakers, or political dissent. Instead, the libertarian, public-interest law firm takes cases often ascribed to the margins of First Amendment concerns by the public and even some judges: cases involving occupational speech, commercial speech, and campaign finance.

On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with IJ President and General Counsel Scott Bullock about the origin of IJ’s unique brand of First Amendment litigation. Bullock joined the organization at its founding in 1991 and was involved in all of its early free speech cases. We also discuss some of IJ’s current cases and some common arguments against its stances on First Amendment issues.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 46 Revisiting Masses v. Patten (1917) Nov 30, 2017

Masses Publishing Co. v. Patten (1917) might be the most important free speech case you’ve never heard of.

In his now largely forgotten decision in the case, then Southern District of New York Judge Learned Hand rejected the United States postmaster general’s arguments for refusing to mail Masses magazine. The magazine was staunchly opposed to World War I and the compulsory military draft. The postmaster general argued that the recently passed Espionage Act gave him the authority to deny the magazine’s circulation.

On this episode of So to Speak, we revisit Masses v. Patten with University of Washington School of Law Scholar Ronald Collins and feature a reargument of the case (min. 40) at the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit. One hundred years ago this month, that same court reversed Judge Hand’s decision.

The case was reargued in front of a panel of Second Circuit judges on Nov. 6, with former Stanford Law School Dean Kathleen Sullivan appearing for Masses Publishing Company and First Amendment attorney Floyd Abrams appearing for Postmaster Patten.

VIDEO of reargument: https://youtu.be/p1W1wfOK1R0

www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 45 Harvard professor Steven Pinker Nov 15, 2017

Harvard University professor and FIRE Advisory Council member Steven Pinker is a rockstar academic. He has written 10 books, many of which are bestsellers, including most recently “The Better Angels of our Nature” and “The Sense of Style.”

On this episode of So to Speak, we chat with professor Pinker about free speech, free inquiry, taboo, dangerous ideas, and, of course, his forthcoming book on the Enlightenment: “Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress.” Here is the recommended reading list provided by professor Pinker during the podcast:

Immanuel Kant’s “What is the Enlightenment?”
Thomas Nagel’s “The Last Word”
Jonathan Glover’s “Humanity: A Moral History of the 20th Century”

www.sotospeakpodcast.comFollow us on Twitter: www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.orgCall in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 44 Berkeley then and now Nov 02, 2017

Nowhere have the campus free speech debates been as intense as at the University of California, Berkeley — the home of the Free Speech Movement.

Violent protests against one speaker. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in security costs to protect another. Speaking invitations extended and then (maybe?) rescinded. And that’s just this year.

On this episode of So to Speak, we revisit the events surrounding the 1964 Berkeley Free Speech Movement to see if the university’s storied past can teach us anything about today’s debates.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 43 LIVE EVENT: Viewpoint diversity on campus Oct 19, 2017

Is the modern college campus suffering from a decline in viewpoint diversity? Do American universities prepare students for life in a politically divided democracy, or might they be teaching habits of thought that will add to America's political divisions? Does political orthodoxy reduce the quality of research, scholarship, and education?

Heterodox Academy and the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education conducted a live panel discussion at New York University in New York City on Tuesday, October 10 to explore these and other pressing questions.

The panelists included:

• Mark Lilla, professor, Columbia University

• Nadine Strossen, professor, New York Law School; former president, ACLU

• April Kelly-Woessner, professor, Elizabethtown College

• Sam Abrams, professor, Sarah Lawrence College

• Nico Perrino (moderator), host, So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast; director of communications, FIRE

Video: youtu.be/tcDN4iQWfUc www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 42 ‘Is this the day the Internet dies?’ Oct 05, 2017

The experts are calling it the free speech debate of the next decade: Who makes the rules for what people can say — and see — on the web? And who pays the price when “The Delete Squad” gets it wrong?

On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, FIRE’s Alex Morey talks to experts on all sides of the issue, from the Facebook team working to keep the social network uncensored — but also safe — for users, to directors at Electronic Frontier Foundation and the Committee to Protect Journalists, and more.

When one entity can unilaterally censor billions of users at the push of a button, what does it mean for the future of the internet? “Is this the day the Internet dies?”

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 41 The British free speech invasion Sep 21, 2017

The British free speech invasion is here. Our friends from the current affairs magazine spiked have traveled across the pond to host “Unsafe Space,” an all-star free speech tour of American college campuses.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we catch up with spiked editors Tom Slater and Ella Whelan in New Jersey to chat about the tour, which kicks off next week in Washington, D.C. We also discuss developments overseas, including spiked’s latest free speech rankings of campuses in the United Kingdom and the implications of Brexit for free expression.

Video: https://youtu.be/pnitp0Oa_ts www.sotospeakpodcast.com

Follow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 40 “The neurodiversity case for free speech” w/ Geoffrey Miller Sep 07, 2017

Would Isaac Newton succeed on the modern college campus? The genius who discovered the laws of motion, but who also obsessed over alchemy, was introverted and prone to unpredictable mood swings. Scholars believe he may have had autism, which is one of the many neurological conditions that contribute to “neurodiversity” in the world. And according to one new theory, the way modern colleges regulate speech is particularly chilling for neurodivergent people, like Newton, who are estimated to make up at least 20 percent of the population.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we chat with University of New Mexico Associate Professor Geoffrey Miller. He is the author of two new articles, titled “The neurodiversity case for free speech” and “Mental health ‘disabilities’ as legal superpowers.” In these articles, he argues that overbroad and vague campus speech codes could discriminate against neurodivergent people with diagnosed mental health disabilities.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 39 Judge Richard Posner on the First Amendment Sep 05, 2017

Last week, Judge Richard Posner suddenly retired from the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals after nearly 36 years on the bench. The 1981 President Reagan appointee authored over 3,300 judicial opinions during his tenure and is widely considered one of the most vocal, provocative, and influential appellate court judges of all time.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we hear Judge Posner’s candid thoughts on the First Amendment as we play for you a conversation he had with Professor Geoffrey Stone on May 16, 2016, at the University of Chicago Law School.

In this wide-ranging and candid dialogue, Judge Posner discusses his views on executive power in wartime, including why he believes President Franklin Roosevelt was justified in interning Japanese-Americans during World War II and why President Abraham Lincoln was right to ignore the Supreme Court’s decision in Ex Parte Merryman. He also addresses Citizens United v. FEC (“terrible”), the Supreme Court in general (“a mediocre institution”), McCullen v. Coakley, the Pentagon Papers, flag burning, and much, much more.

This podcast is presented as part of So to Speak’s exclusive partnership with the First Amendment Salon. The First Amendment Salon is a quarterly gathering of members of the First Amendment community for a 90-minute discussion with leading thinkers concerning a timely topic related to freedom of expression.

VIDEO: youtu.be/bhLJliXX848

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 38 “After Charlottesville” w/ former ACLU President Nadine Strossen Aug 22, 2017

Nadine Strossen knows the dangers of Nazism. Her father was liberated from the Buchenwald concentration camp one day before he was scheduled to be sterilized. If American soldiers arrived a day later, Strossen would never become the first female president of the ACLU. She wouldn’t even be alive.

After Charlottesville, there has been vigorous debate about the so-called limits of free speech. Should white supremacist and neo-Nazi ideologies enjoy full First Amendment rights? And if so, should civil liberties groups, like the ACLU, defend them?

On today’s episode of So to Speak, Strossen discusses the fallout from Charlottesville and argues forcefully that, yes, even neo-Nazis deserve free speech and assembly rights ― and yes, the ACLU should defend those rights. She believes the best way to preserve a free society is to not compromise the rights guaranteed by a free society. She is authoring a book on this very topic due out next year titled, “HATE: Why we should resist it with free speech, not censorship.”

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 37 Fredrik deBoer on the growing distrust of higher ed Aug 10, 2017

Fredrik deBoer has been in and around academia his entire life. He’s a fourth generation Ph.D. who has blogged about education issues since 2008. Writing from a socialist perspective, he regularly tackles campus free speech debates.

Last month, deBoer wrote a piece for The Los Angeles Times arguing that recent efforts to shut down conservative speakers on campus have contributed to an environment where 58 percent of Republicans say colleges have a negative effect on the country.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we ask deBoer how this distrust threatens the future of higher education, and why he believes his colleagues on “the left” contribute to it. We also review common arguments against free speech, and deBoer explains how anti-communist purges targeting his grandfather sparked his early appreciation for academic freedom.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 36 The life of Louis Brandeis w/ Jeffrey Rosen Jul 27, 2017

During the summer of 1919, U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis changed his mind about free speech.

Earlier that year, he voted to uphold the conviction of Charles Schenck for opposing the military draft. A year later, he was the lone dissenter in a case dealing with nearly the same issue. In 1927, he wrote what some consider to be the greatest defense of free speech ever penned by a Supreme Court justice in the case Whitney v. California.

Why did Brandeis change his mind?

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we explore the life and legacy of Brandeis with National Constitution Center President and CEO Jeffrey Rosen. Last year, Rosen wrote the book “Louis D. Brandeis: American Prophet,” which explains how Brandeis came to be one of free speech’s most eloquent advocates.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 35 Et tu, hecklers? Howard Sherman on defending the arts Jul 13, 2017

In Shakespeare’s 1599 play “Julius Caesar,” the title character is warned by a soothsayer to “beware the Ides of March.” After protesters attempted to shut down a modernized production of the play in New York’s Central Park last month, theater companies may now be warning each other to “beware the ire of hecklers.”

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we speak with Arts Integrity Initiative Director Howard Sherman about the controversy surrounding The Public Theater’s production of “Julius Caesar,” which captured headlines for portraying Caesar as a costumed Donald Trump (spoiler alert: Caesar gets assassinated). Howard was in the audience on June 16 when a protester stormed the stage. He may have also been the first to report the heckling to the outside world.

Was the protest protected speech? What does the controversy tell us about creating art on contemporary political themes? Also, looking beyond the “Julius Caesar” controversy, where else do we see art challenged — or censored — and why? These questions and more are addressed in this wide-ranging interview.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 34 The 100th anniversary of the Espionage Act of 1917 Jun 29, 2017

It was 100 years ago this month that the Espionage Act of 1917 was signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson, making it a crime to interfere with the operations of the United States military.

During its lifetime, the act has had a troubled history with the First Amendment. It has been used to criminalize wartime dissent, restrict press freedom, and prosecute government whistleblowers.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we speak with University of Washington School of Law scholar Ronald Collins about the Espionage Act and its continuing relevance to civil liberties advocates. We also venture into a slightly unrelated discussion of the Supreme Court’s decision in the case In re Anastaplo (1961), which reveals the sort of risks that accompany standing up for one’s rights during times of uncertainty.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 33 The Slants win at the U.S. Supreme Court! Jun 20, 2017

Simon Tam likes to quote Martin Luther King Jr.’s famous line — paraphrased from transcendentalist Theodore Parker’s earlier statement — that “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” That said, Tam likes to add that the arc doesn’t bend on its own. It takes courageous individuals willing to stand up for their rights for justice to be achieved.

Tam can now add himself to the list of those who bore the cost of standing up for their rights — and found justice. Yesterday, the Supreme Court of the United States unanimously ruled in Matal v. Tam that the First Amendment prohibits the United States Patent and Trademark Office from denying trademark registration for the name of Tam’s rock band, The Slants, because it allegedly “disparages” Asians.

The PTO didn’t care that Tam, the founder of and bass player for The Slants, is himself of Asian descent — as are all the band members — or that Tam picked the name to celebrate Asian heritage, not disparage it.

On today’s special “extra” episode of So to Speak, we speak with University of Washington School of Law scholar Ronald Collins and FIRE Justice Robert H. Jackson Legal Fellow Zachary Greenberg about the decision. We also feature an April interview we conducted with The Slants about the case at FIRE’s Philadelphia office. To close out the show, The Slants perform two acoustic songs for your listening pleasure.

Video: https://youtu.be/iqr6l-mEGCA

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 32 Tyler Cowen on the complacent campus Jun 15, 2017

George Mason University Professor Tyler Cowen has spent the better part of the last 40 years on college campuses. That’s why when he wrote in his new book “The Complacent Class: The Self-Defeating Quest for the American Dream” that college campuses are “among the segments of American society where the complacent class exercises its strongest influence,” we wanted to learn more.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we ask professor Cowen why he believes college campuses are complacent and what impact, if any, this has on recent campus debates about freedom of speech.

Joining host Nico Perrino in quizzing professor Cowen about the implications his thesis has for free speech is FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, who is also curious about some of professor Cowen’s other areas of expertise — economics and food.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 31 Campus free speech round table: spring 2017 semester in review Jun 01, 2017

FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff once declared 2014 the year of the heckler. But after high profile examples of mob censorship at the University of California, Berkeley, Middlebury College, and Claremont McKenna College, has 2017 become the new year of the heckler — at least on college campuses?

On this week’s episode of So to Speak, host Nico Perrino is joined by his FIRE colleagues Will Creeley, Samantha Harris, and Joe Cohn to help answer this and other questions about free speech on campus during the spring 2017 semester.

Podcast video: YouTube.com/theFIREorg

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 30 Eugene Volokh and new frontiers in the First Amendment May 18, 2017

Where are the new frontiers in First Amendment law? Where do scholars and the courts see the potential for expanding First Amendment protections in the future? What technological developments pose challenges to existing First Amendment protections?

Our guest on today’s episode of So to Speak will help us answer those questions.

Professor Eugene Volokh is the Gary T. Schwartz Distinguished Professor of Law at UCLA and the founder of the popular legal blog The Volokh Conspiracy. Before receiving his law degree and clerking for Justice Sandra Day O’Connor on the U.S. Supreme Court, he graduated from UCLA at age 15 with a degree in math-computer science and worked as a computer programmer for 12 years.

Professor Volokh is widely regarded as a foremost scholar on the First Amendment and his textbook, “The First Amendment and Related Statutes,” is used in law schools across the country. On today’s show, we explore topics relating to virtual reality and augmented reality, occupational speech and the case of Mats Järlström, prediction markets, and Packingham v. North Carolina, a case currently before the U.S. Supreme Court dealing with registered sex offenders’ access to social media.

Also in this show: Professor Volokh shares what First Amendment issue he is particularly interested in at the moment.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 29 Former ACLU Executive Director Ira Glasser May 04, 2017

Ira Glasser is one of the most consequential civil liberties figures in American history.

He ran the ACLU as its executive director from 1978 until his retirement in 2001. In the process, he transformed the organization from a small, $4 million nonprofit with offices in a few cities into a household name with an annual budget of $45 million, a $30 million endowment, and staffed offices in every state, Washington D.C., and Puerto Rico.

This week is the 50th anniversary of when Glasser started with the ACLU on May 1, 1967. In this exclusive, wide-ranging interview, he shares how he went from a part-time math teacher with no law degree to the leader of one of America’s most prominent legal organizations.

His story takes us to Ebbets Field in Brooklyn, where in 1947, Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball and inspired a generation of civil rights activists, to the offices of Robert Kennedy, where the junior U.S. senator spoke with a young Glasser and convinced him to take a job with the ACLU — a job he initially didn’t want.

In explaining how he got from “here to there,” Glasser puts on a master class in principled free speech advocacy, effective management strategies, and how following your passions can lead you to delightfully unexpected places.

Interview transcript: thefire.org/so-to-speak-podcast-transcript-ira-glasser-aclu/

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 28 ‘Sex and the Constitution’ with professor Geoffrey R. Stone Apr 20, 2017

Sex and the Constitution are not two topics often thought of together.

But University of Chicago Law School professor Geoffrey R. Stone seeks to change that with the publication of “Sex and the Constitution: Sex, Religion, and Law from America’s Origins to the Twenty-First Century.”

The newly released, 700-page book is 10 years in the making. Stone’s comprehensive review extends all the way back to the ancient Greeks and Romans to explain how sex came to be legislated in America.

Professor Stone is the guest on today’s episode of So to Speak. Fittingly, we met in New York City to discuss the portions of “Sex and the Constitution” dealing with the regulation of sexual expression. It was, after all, in New York City where the YMCA and Anthony Comstock began their campaigns in the 1800s to root out what they deemed obscene, sexually explicit material.

During our conversation, Stone explains how “obscenity” came to be regulated in America and why its legal definition constantly shifts. We also explore other First Amendment issues surrounding sexual expression, including nude dancing and the public funding of art with sexual themes.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 27 The ‘heckler’s veto’ strikes Heather Mac Donald Apr 17, 2017

On April 6, Manhattan Institute Fellow Heather Mac Donald was standing in Claremont McKenna College’s Athenaeum preparing to give a lecture to an empty room.

An empty room was not what Mac Donald expected when she traveled to California from her New York City home to deliver a lecture on her new book, “The War On Cops.” But outside the auditorium, close to 300 people had surrounded the Athenaeum, preventing prospective audience members from entering. They were protesting Mac Donald’s defense of law enforcement policing tactics and her criticism of the Black Lives Matter movement.

Ultimately, the college livestreamed Mac Donald’s talk to those who could not attend in person. But the talk was cut short during the question and answer period after police and administrators determined that it was unsafe for her to remain in the building. The crowd was allegedly out of control, and Mac Donald could hear banging on the windows. Her exit through the kitchen of the Athenaeum into an unmarked Claremont Police Department van was coordinated by walkie-talkie.

Heather Mac Donald is our guest on today’s “extra” edition of “So to Speak.” Mac Donald is the latest speaker on campus to fall victim to the “heckler’s veto.” During our conversation, I ask Mac Donald what she was thinking as she heard the crowd outside banging on the Athenaeum’s windows. I also asked her what it says about the environment for free inquiry on campus that a scholar must escape under police protection through the kitchen of a campus building for presenting nothing more than an argument?

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 26 Putting money where your mouth is: campaign finance and free speech Apr 06, 2017

From Buckley v. Valeo (1976) to Citizens United v. FEC (2010), legal disputes over the constitutionality of campaign finance laws have captured the general public’s attention for decades.

At the heart of the debate is a question of whether money donated to political candidates or spent influencing elections is speech protected by the First Amendment. And, if it is, are there countervailing interests outweighing those core First Amendment interests?

Even within the free speech community, the debate can be contentious. But for our guest on today’s episode of So to Speak, the issue is straightforward: money spent in support of a political message is speech.

Sam Gedge is an attorney with the Institute for Justice, a national public-interest law firm that puts its money where its mouth is, regularly challenging campaign finance restrictions in court.

In this podcast, Gedge presents the basics of campaign finance regulation and makes his case for why money spent on politics deserves full First Amendment protection.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 25 Bob Corn-Revere on censorship: the ‘bastard child of technology’ Mar 23, 2017

New technologies and the censorship instinct seem to go hand-in-hand. From the first days of the printing press, to the rise of radio and the telephone, to the advent of the internet, innovations in mass communication are often followed by a fear of what will happen if these novelties are left unrestricted — or uncensored.

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we speak with former Federal Communications Commission chief counsel and current Davis Wright Tremaine partner Bob Corn-Revere about what it means for censorship to be the “bastard child of technology.”

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 24 How Daryl Davis, a black man, defeats the KKK w/ dialogue Mar 09, 2017

Daryl Davis, a 58-year-old black man, has a question: “How can you hate me if you don’t even know me?”

For nearly three decades, Davis has been interviewing members of the Ku Klux Klan to find an answer to that question. However, in the course of his research, he found something he didn’t expect to find: friendship.

You see, while Davis was actively learning about the Klan members, they were passively learning about him, seeing that their prejudices were unfounded and becoming his friend. Today, Davis has dozens of Klan robes at his home that were given to him by former Klan members who shed their racist beliefs after meeting him.

On today’s episode of “So To Speak,” we travel to Maryland to meet Davis and explore how open dialogue and debate have shown him a path toward a tolerant, multicultural future.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 23 Rob Corry, ‘speech code slayer’ Feb 23, 2017

In 1994, law student Rob Corry joined with eight other students to file a legal challenge to a Stanford University speech code. It was the first-ever lawsuit filed under California’s recently-enacted “Leonard Law,” which applies First Amendment protections to private, non-sectarian colleges in the state of California (like Stanford), and which the students argued made Stanford’s restrictions on free speech unlawful.

Winning wasn’t going to be easy: Corry would be representing himself and his co-plaintiffs against one of America’s richest and most powerful research universities.

On Feb. 27, 1995—22 years ago this month—a California state court judge sided with Corry and struck down Stanford’s speech code as an impermissible content-based restriction on expression. The victory earned Corry the title of “speech code slayer" in a campus newspaper.

Today, on “So to Speak,” we talk with Corry of Corry v. Stanford about the seminal lawsuit, how he overcame the challenges of representing himself in court, and why other students should feel emboldened by his victory to challenge their colleges’ speech codes.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 22 Flemming Rose, Editor of ‘the Muhammad Cartoons’ Feb 09, 2017

Flemming Rose didn’t set out to put himself at the center of one of the biggest free speech controversies in recent memory, but 12 years ago he found himself in just that position.

In 2005, Rose commissioned and published what are now widely known as “the Muhammad cartoons.”

Protests against the cartoons resulted in an estimated 200 reported deaths; there were attacks on the offices of Rose’s employer, the Danish newspaper ‘Jyllands-Posten’; and Rose was placed on Al-Qaeda’s hit list. To this day, he must be accompanied by a security detail when he appears in public.

Flemming Rose is our guest on today’s episode of “So to Speak.” During the show, we discuss the cartoon controversy and how his thoughts on free speech are informed by his background as a western journalist in the Soviet Union.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 21 The ‘Turkey Purge’ w/ Prof. Beth Baron Jan 27, 2017

We continue our conversation about the Turkish government’s crackdown on civil society with Middle East Studies Association (MESA) President and City University of New York Professor Beth Baron.

MESA has sounded the alarm bells about the threat to academic freedom posed by the Turkish government. In August 2016, they sent a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry regarding persecutions and prosecutions of scholars and academics within Turkey.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 20 The ‘Turkey Purge’ w/ Mahir Zeynalov Jan 26, 2017

If you care about free expression, you should care about what’s happening in Turkey.

Since a failed July 15, 2016 coup attempt against Turkey President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the Turkish government has intensified the use of emergency decrees and laws against terrorist propaganda and insulting the president to purge perceived dissenters within civil society.

On today’s episode, we are joined by journalist Mahir Zeynalov. Mahir writes for “The Huffington Post” and “Al Arabiya,” and was deported from Turkey in 2014 for criticism of the government. He faces arrest if he ever returns.

During the show, we speak with Zeynalov about the mind-boggling number of journalists, academics, and civil servants purged from Turkish civil society, what the international community can do to help, and the confusing populist support that Erdogan has within Turkey.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 19 Ken White of ‘Popehat’ Talks Nat Hentoff, Worst Censors of 2016 Jan 12, 2017

Ken White has made a name for himself in First Amendment circles for his particularly astute and often comical commentary on free speech issues for the popular “law, liberty, and leisure” blog ‘Popehat.’

An attorney by day, Ken likes to use his considerable legal chops—he’s a 1994 graduate of Harvard Law School—to take a rhetorical axe to what he sees as facile arguments in favor of censorship.

Ken is our guest on today’s episode of “So to Speak.” We talk with him about his list of the worst censors of 2016 and spend some time remembering the life of a giant in the free speech world, Nat Hentoff, who passed away this past weekend. Ken also explains how he successfully uses the “Popehat Signal” to rally attorneys to provide pro bono assistance to people wrapped up in free speech legal battles.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 18 Campus Free Speech Round Table: Fall 2016 Semester in Review Dec 29, 2016

A precipitous decline in the percentage of schools maintaining severely restrictive speech codes. A proliferation of bias response teams. “Security fee” or “speech tax?” Donald Trump. Milo Yiannopoulos. Penis drawings. These topics and more are covered in our recap of the fall 2016 semester, featuring Foundation for Individual Rights in Education vice presidents Samantha Harris and Will Creeley. Also, we take a listener question.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 17 ACLU National Legal Director David Cole Dec 15, 2016

In July, the ACLU tapped Georgetown University Law Center Professor David Cole to be its new national legal director. In that role, Cole will oversee nearly 300 lawyers and a docket of about 1,400 state and federal lawsuits.

On today’s episode of “So to Speak,” Wall Street Journal Supreme Court Correspondent Jess Bravin interviews Cole about his new job and explores some of the hottest topics in the First Amendment world: flag burning, campaign finance reform, what can legally be done about rising concerns over “fake news,” and more.

Cole also speculates on what the future may hold for the ACLU and the First Amendment after President-elect Donald Trump’s inauguration.

This is the first podcast in our exclusive partnership with the First Amendment Salon.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 16 Free Speech Profiles: Attorney Martin Garbus Dec 01, 2016

Attorney Martin Garbus’ client list is a who’s who of the world’s foremost artists, politicians, corporations, scientists, and political dissidents.

In a career spanning a half century, he’s represented actors Sean Connery and Al Pacino, authors Tom Brokaw and Nancy Reagan, and even Nobel Prize winners Vaclav Havel and Andrei Sakharov.

Although Garbus holds a diverse practice, he is perhaps most famous—and in some circles, infamous—for his work in First Amendment law.

In today’s episode of “So to Speak,” we dive deep into some of Martin Garbus’ most interesting—and sometimes scary—career moments. His smuggling a list of political prisoners out of the Soviet Union, his involvement with Daniel Ellsberg in releasing the Pentagon Papers, and his defense of the mercurial comedian Lenny Bruce are just some of the stories we will touch upon.

This is the inaugural episode in a series that will profile the careers of some of the world’s most prominent free speech advocates.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 15 Denying the Holocaust Nov 17, 2016

In 1996, Emory University Professor Deborah Lipstadt found herself in a peculiar situation: she and a team of lawyers would have to defend the truth about the Holocaust against British historian and famed Holocaust denier David Irving.

It was a quirk of the English legal system that allowed the battle to play out in court. In England, the burden of proof in libel cases rests on the defendant, not the plaintiff. So, when David Irving filed a libel lawsuit against Professor Lipstadt and her British publisher for critical statements Professor Lipstadt wrote about him in her 1993 book “Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory,” it was up to Professor Lipstadt to justify her criticism.

Sixteen years after Professor Lipstadt won her legal battle, the story of her encounter with Irving is now the subject of the recently released movie “Denial.”

Deborah Lipstadt is our guest on today’s episode of “So to Speak.” During our conversation, Professor Lipstadt revisits the Irving trial, explains its implications for free speech and academic freedom, and elaborates on the unique phenomenon of seeing one’s life acted out on the big screen.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 14 NYU Professor Stephen Solomon’s ‘Revolutionary Dissent’ Nov 03, 2016

The time of America’s founding was full of raucous debate and widespread dissent. Americans built effigies, wrote pamphlets, sang songs, and gathered at liberty trees to protest British rule.

But while citizens of the 13 colonies, and later America, might have acted like they had a right to express themselves in the myriad ways that they did, the spectre of seditious libel—illegal statements criticizing the government—often hung over their heads.

In “Revolutionary Dissent: How the Founding Generation Created the Freedom of Speech,” New York University journalism professor Stephen D. Solomon chronicles how early Americans such as Paul Revere, James Madison, Alexander McDougall, and others fought seditious libel laws and developed their understanding of the right to freedom of speech along the way.

We sit down with Professor Solomon in today’s episode of “So to Speak” to discuss his new book. We also learn why anyone who cared about free expression at the time of America’s founding associated it with the number 45.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 13 spiked’s Brendan O’Neill on the Fight for Free Speech Overseas Oct 20, 2016

“How do you make the case for freedom of speech these days?,” asks Brendan O’Neill in the latest episode of “So to Speak.”

The question is a serious one for O’Neill. As the editor of the online British current-affairs magazine “spiked,” he is on the front lines every day fighting to preserve free speech and a free press in a legal environment that doesn’t have a First Amendment.

In a part of the world that just last year imprisoned a man for four months for singing a controversial song before a soccer match, O’Neill says that there are many laws that can land people in hot water for speaking their minds in the United Kingdom. For example, he says that England has among the worst libel laws in Europe.

In England, unlike the United States, the libel laws are greatly weighted in favor of the person who sues, says O’Neill, who notes that about 80 percent of libel actions go in favor of the person suing. As a result, he regularly considers the libel laws when editing content for “spiked.”

“It’s a rich man’s law, which is used to silence criticism, and political views, and difficult, awkward views that people don’t like,” he says.

“spiked” counts as part of its mission the defense of “freedom of speech with no ifs and buts” because, as O’Neill says, “as soon as you give an inch on freedom of speech, they will take a mile.”

But, despite the United Kingdom’s countervailing laws, O’Neill says that the argument in favor of freedom of speech “still has real purchase and real power.” And until those censorship laws are struck down and threats to free speech are extinguished, O’Neill says “spiked” will keep making those arguments.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 12 Flying Dog Brewery: ‘Good Beer, No Censorship’ Oct 06, 2016

“Two inflammatory words … one wild drink. Nectar imprisoned in a bottle. Let it out. It is cruel to keep a wild animal locked up.”

When artist and illustrator Ralph Steadman wrote those words for the label of Flying Dog Brewery’s “Raging Bitch” Belgian-style IPA, he had no idea that cruel imprisonment would be precisely their fate.

In 2009, the Michigan Liquor Control Commission banned the sale of “Raging Bitch” from store shelves in the state because the commission claimed the beer’s name and its label, designed by Steadman, were “detrimental to the health, safety, and welfare of the general public.”

Any other company might have accepted the commission’s justification for censorship. But Flying Dog Brewery isn’t a company to just roll over.

Flying Dog was founded in 1990 by George Stranahan, a close friend of journalist Hunter S. Thompson, who pioneered a style of journalism known as “Gonzo”: first-person, satirical critiques on society and culture. The brewery has always maintained the critical, anti-authoritarian message embodied by Gonzo journalism.

So, when Michigan banned the sale of “Raging Bitch,” Flying Dog didn’t back down. That’s not its Gonzo style. Instead, it took the brew ha-ha to court and fought back with a First Amendment lawsuit.

We wanted to learn more about Flying Dog’s dog fight in defense of its art. Its lawsuit culminated earlier this year in a resounding legal victory, and the brewery created a First Amendment Society using damages awarded from the lawsuit, thus proving that every dog has its day.

So, we headed down to Frederick, Md., where the brewery is located. What’s the story? Nobody had bothered to say. So we would have to drum it up on our own. Free enterprise. The American dream. Horatio Alger gone mad on beer in Frederick.

Do it now: pure Gonzo.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 11 Robert Shibley’s ‘Twisting Title IX’ Sep 22, 2016

“Unfortunately, Title IX has really become unmoored from its original intention,” says Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) Executive Director Robert Shibley.

Title IX is the 1972 law that prohibits sex discrimination in federally funded educational programs. The active part of the law is less than 40 words long. But in a forthcoming book entitled “Twisting Title IX,” Shibley argues that these words have been “twisted” by an activist Department of Education to violate the free speech and due process rights of students and faculty members on college campuses.

In this episode of “So to Speak,” we talk with Shibley about his new book, and investigate how a short law passed without much fanfare in 1972 only recently ballooned into one of today’s main threats to individual rights on campus. We also learn about those on campus who are fighting back.

Plus, we take a listener question about anonymous speech.

“Twisting Title IX” will be released on Tuesday, September 27 and is available today for pre-order through Amazon.com.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 10 Jason Riley on Being ‘Disinvited’ from Campus Sep 08, 2016

Earlier this year, Jason Riley was “disinvited” from speaking at Virginia Tech due to concerns that his writings on race would spark campus protests.

The Wall Street Journal columnist, Fox News commentator, and Manhattan Institute senior fellow wasn’t alone in seeing an invitation to speak on campus be revoked due to concerns that his appearance might prove controversial. He was in distinguished company.

Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, columnist George Will, International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde, and hip hop artist Common were all similarly disinvited from speaking on a college campus in recent years.

These disinvitations are part of a troubling trend whereby individuals and groups seek to prevent controversial speakers from appearing on campus. According to the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education’s disinvitation database, since 2000 there have been 312 disinvitation attempts on campus. 128 of them have come since 2012.

Our guest on today’s show had a rare disinvitation experience. Jason Riley happened to be reinvited after he blew the whistle on his disinvitation in a column for The Wall Street Journal.

The series of events that followed Riley’s disinvitation is a case study not only in the power of mass media to expose risk-averse decision-making that stifles free expression on campus—but also in demonstrating the outsized influence just a few outspoken alumni can have in reversing those decisions.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 9 Alice Dreger on Academic Freedom Aug 25, 2016

Every year, the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education puts out a list of the 10 worst colleges for free speech. And this year, surprisingly, half of the schools on the list earned their spot because they threatened faculty’s right to speak out in some way.

One institution on that list was Northwestern University.

Last year, Northwestern made headlines for its extraordinary attacks on academic freedom on two separate occasions. Once for its 72-day Title IX investigation into Professor Laura Kipnis’ public writings and comments about sexual politics on campus. And on another occasion, for its censorship of a faculty-produced bioethics journal that it feared would damage its medical school’s “brand.”

This episode of “So to Speak” is about academic freedom, and our guest is Alice Dreger.

Dreger is an historian of medicine and science, a sex researcher, a mainstream writer, and what she calls “an (im)patient advocate.” She also formerly held the position of full professor in Medical Humanities and Bioethics at Northwestern University’s Feinberg School of Medicine, and she was a guest editor for the bioethics journal that Northwestern sought to censor.

In this episode, we speak with Dreger about the importance of academic freedom at Northwestern and beyond, why the corporatization of the modern university threatens free speech on campus, and why we must use the word “formerly” when describing her tenure at Northwestern.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 8 ‘The Trials of Lenny Bruce’ Aug 11, 2016

His trials began with a police bust at the Jazz Workshop in San Francisco in October 1961, and ended with an obscenity conviction in New York in November 1964. Stand-up comedy legend Lenny Bruce underwent 35 months—1,062 days—of nonstop persecution and prosecution for the content of his act.

It was 50 years ago this month that an autopsy would report that Bruce died of an overdose of morphine on August 3, 1966. But anyone who knows his story knows it was more complicated than that. Billboard’s Phil Spector wrote in the magazine’s obituary for Bruce that "America's foremost, and certainly most truthful, philosopher died from an overdose of police."

This episode of “So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast” commemorates the 50th anniversary of Bruce’s death. We are joined by Ron Collins, a scholar at the University of Washington School of Law who co-authored with David Skover “The Trials of Lenny Bruce: The Fall and Rise of an American Icon,” which carefully documents Bruce’s career and free speech struggles.

This episode explores the life, trials, and legacy of a man whom George Carlin said “opened the doors for all the guys like me,” and in so doing, became a martyr for free speech in comedy and art.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 7 The Daughters: Carlin, Pryor, and Bruce Speak Out Jul 28, 2016

Kelly Carlin, Rain Pryor, and Kitty Bruce are the daughters of the godfathers of comedy.

Their fathers, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, and Lenny Bruce, shaped the stand-up comedy you hear today. If you listen to any of their routines and none of them surprise you, it’s because they influenced every comedian who came later.

In this exclusive interview, the daughters speak out for the first time together about their fathers and the censorship fights that all three comedy legends combatted in their quests to stay true to their art.

Transcript: https://www.thefire.org/the-daughters-of-comedy-carlin-pryor-bruce/

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 6 The Summer Interns Take Over Jul 14, 2016

Nationwide polls on support for free speech are full of contradictions.

Research conducted by Gallup, the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, and the Newseum Institute earlier this year found widespread support from college students for free speech in the abstract. However, the same poll also found tepid support when students were asked about specifics. According to the poll, a majority of respondents believed colleges should be able to restrict intentionally offensive speech and costumes that stereotype minorities.

Another, more recent poll of the general population by the Newseum Institute and USA Today found a similar result.

These studies, and others like them, have often confounded those of us in the free speech advocacy business. So, for this week’s show, we decided to send the inimitable Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) summer interns to Independence Mall—adjacent to FIRE’s Philadelphia headquarters—to conduct an unscientific survey of tourists’ attitudes toward free speech and other First Amendment freedoms.

Are the polls right? Do Americans generally support free speech ideals, and does that support fall off when, for example, it comes to college campuses and flag burning? If so, why?

The results might surprise you.

www.Sotospeakpodcast.com

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 5 Aryeh Neier on “Defending My Enemy” Jun 30, 2016

He has a glittering civil liberties résumé: co-founder of Human Rights Watch, president of the Open Society Foundations for nearly 20 years, professor of civil rights law.

But before all of that, Aryeh Neier was the executive director of the ACLU during one of its most turbulent moments: when it came to the defense of neo-Nazis trying to exercise their right to free speech and assembly in Skokie, Illinois in 1977.

In this week’s episode, we speak with Neier about that time and about his seminal 1979 book, ‘Defending My Enemy: American Nazis, the Skokie Case, and the Risks of Freedom.’

In addition to Skokie, the conversation touches on why the defense of civil liberties shouldn’t be placed on the political spectrum, Neier’s formative years fighting speaker bans on college campuses, and why free speech can’t be blamed for the violence in Weimar Germany, Rwanda, and Bosnia in the 20th century.

The conversation also veers toward what Neier sees as one of the greatest threats to free speech today: political correctness.

This episode caps off our series on the topic of “defending my enemy,” which explores why people who vehemently oppose certain ideas nonetheless staunchly defend the right of others to express them. The series was inspired by Neier’s book.

Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk

Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast

Email us: sotospeak@thefire.org

Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Ep. 4 2015–16 Campus Free Speech Year in Review Jun 16, 2016

The 2015–16 school year was a headline-grabbing year for free speech on campus. Even President Barack Obama felt compelled to weigh in on the conversation. Multiple times.

In this episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we chat with FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff and FIRE Director of Policy Research Samantha Harris—two of FIRE’s longest-serving employees—about what made this past year so unique.

What were the biggest campus free speech stories? What did we see coming? What took us by surprise? And what do we anticipate for next school year? We tackle these questions and more in this week’s show.