Show notes
Isle McElroy joins Jess and Brandon to talk about intimacy, vulnerability and sex — on paper and in the flesh. An award-winning non-binary author based in New York, McElroy’s latest novel People Collide is a gender-bending, body-switching story exploring marriage, identity, and sex, which delves into questions about the nature of true partnership. Isle shares personal insights on what makes for a good sex scene, how inadequacy plays out in relationships and what they’ve learned from rethinking sex and pleasure. To learn more about Isle McElroy, check out their social media – Instagram and Twitter And if you have podcast questions, please submit them here. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music & Stitcher! Rough Transcript: This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns. Episode 343 Sex, Gender & Intimacy: People Collide with Isle McElroy [00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight. [00:00:15] Brandon Ware: Hey, hey, today we’re talking about sex, gender, and intimacy with Isle McElroy, an award winning non binary author based in New York, whose latest novel, People Collide, is a gender bending, body switching story about marriage, identity, and sex, which delves into questions about the nature of true partnership. [00:00:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and this story isn’t your traditional kind of body swap, you know, thinking Freaky Fridays. So the story is… Eli, when Eli, the main character, leaves the cramped Bulgarian apartment, he shares with his wife, Elizabeth, who’s more organized, more successful than he is. He discovers that he now inhabits her body. [00:00:48] Jess O’Reilly: So not only have he and his wife traded bodies, but Elizabeth living as Eli, has disappeared without a trace, and what follows is Eli’s search across Europe, to America, to find his missing wife, and an exploration of gender and embodied experience. As Eli comes closer to finding Elizabeth while learning to exist in her body, he begins to wonder what effect this metamorphosis will have on their relationship, and how long he can maintain the illusion of of living as someone he isn’t. [00:01:17] Jess O’Reilly: And the questions, you know, are will their new marriage wither completely in each other’s bodies, or is this transformation the very thing Eli and Elizabeth need for their marriage? to thrive. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation. I’ve been reading the book. I’m almost done. I thought I’d be done by today, but I have a lot of questions about some of the messaging and themes, and I think it’s going to be a great conversation. [00:01:37] Jess O’Reilly: Now, before we welcome our guest, I’ll want to announce a partnership with fellow podcasters Adventures from the Bedrooms of African Women. The podcast, season two, is out now and it’s hosted by Nana Darkwa Sakiyama and Malaika Grant. The podcast explores African women’s experiences of sex, sexuality, [00:02:00] and pleasure and they have a host of fabulous guests in their bedroom this season. [00:02:05] Jess O’Reilly: They have top sexpert Ohlone from the UK, fabulous comedienne Yvonne Orji. Feminist powerhouse, Mona Altahawe, and many, many more. And they’re asking all their guests, what’s your sexy secret? What’s your secret, babe? [00:02:19] Brandon Ware: I can’t tell you. It’s a secret. That’s why it’s a secret. [00:02:21] Jess O’Reilly: So predictable. Okay. That and so much more in the new season of the Adventures from the Bedrooms of African Women podcast out now. [00:02:30] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:02:33] Jess O’Reilly: Joining us now is Al McElroy. Thank you so much for being here. [00:02:37] Isle McElroy: Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here. [00:02:39] Jess O’Reilly: So we’re enjoying reading through your work. Not only People Collide, but some of your previous work, Short Stories. I understand this is your second book. [00:02:47] Jess O’Reilly: I was thinking about the pressure of an author in terms of your second book because everybody’s comparing it to your first, expecting more of the same. Is that something that, you know, you kind of face as an author or do you have to just leave it behind and do what works for you? [00:03:01] Isle McElroy: Yeah, I think I have not, there’s definitely been a lot of comparison to the first book. [00:03:07] Isle McElroy: I feel in a very strange place because my first book was published under my dead name. So it both feels as if this is my second book and my first book that is really mine. I think what’s been really exciting about the two books is that they do feel like they’re in conversation with each other. The first book, The Atmospherians, was about two best friends who start a cult to reform problematic men, uh, like a satire about gender. [00:03:30] Isle McElroy: And this book is a more intimate about a married couple who swap bodies. And I do feel like it seems like a really amazing evolution. for me in how I’ve been thinking about gender, how I’ve been thinking about relationship. First book is a lot about friendship. This second book is a lot about marriage. [00:03:46] Isle McElroy: So for me, I’ve been really always interested in tight knit, intimate relationship. And this book was an opportunity to be more romantic about it. So I haven’t felt most of the comparison has been with myself. Um, less so with [00:04:00] other people putting that on me, thankfully. [00:04:01] Jess O’Reilly: Good for you. You know, um, you talk about intimacy and I definitely want to speak about that as well as sexuality and gender and fluidity. [00:04:08] Jess O’Reilly: But People Collided explores all these relationship themes, right, and, and to me beautiful and vulnerable and sometimes kind of uncomfortable. Framing for the reader and from the onset, we see a character who seemingly kind of is accepting of feeling inadequate. And that theme jumps out to me. So the character Eli seems kind of resigned to be unworthy of Elizabeth and she’s more successful and motivated and responsible and brave. [00:04:33] Jess O’Reilly: And he describes her kind of as this full human, whereas he’s just an appendage, you know, her name literally encompasses his. So this hierarchical dynamic shows up in other relationships in the story as well. And. In the context of a body swap story and one that crosses gender and explore sexuality, because anything I’ve consumed prior to People Collide did not explore these themes. [00:04:56] Jess O’Reilly: I’m curious what you think we, what you want us to learn or consider or feel. About the experience of feeling inadequate in relationships with yourself or with others. [00:05:05] Isle McElroy: Oh, that’s such a good question. Um, I think it’s so. What’s interesting about Eli for me is that inadequacy is a form of safety for him, that it is a way that he doesn’t need to actually engage with the things that he is talented at. [00:05:23] Isle McElroy: He doesn’t need to engage with what he actually does well. In this marriage, the fact that he is there, the fact that he has sort of put his life on hold and that he is there as a support system is going into that school to do some things. He is showing up and he is very dismissive of his actions, which I think is a way for him to feel comfortable in control. [00:05:45] Isle McElroy: I think we are even being inadequate is a really. fascinating control strategy in so far as it allows you to kind of seed responsibility. And that can be a really interesting way for, for this character, I think [00:06:00] has to, I mean, his opening sentences, I’m not a responsible man. So he has to find responsibility over the course of this novel, responsibility for his own life, responsibility for his actions, and that he is so willing to claim inadequacy is kind of a bluff. [00:06:16] Isle McElroy: It’s something that is keeping him, he doesn’t want to claim that responsibility because he’s scared of it. He’s scared of what it would mean to actually run and like dive into his life in the way that probably Elizabeth and other people think that he can but he doesn’t really want to confront. So I do think it’s a way for him to Avoid responsibility in a really interesting way [00:06:36] Brandon Ware: is a common theme. [00:06:37] Brandon Ware: Do you feel like you see this a lot [00:06:40] Brandon Ware: in your life? And like, I mean, I’m just thinking about this, how it pertains to me and I’m like, yeah, you’re right. Absolving yourself of responsibility, shirking responsibility, even when it comes to simple things in a relationship where it’s like, what do you want to have for dinner today? [00:06:52] Brandon Ware: I’m like, yeah, I’m easy. Like, I don’t. [00:06:54] Brandon Ware: And it’s like, am I really easy? Or is it that I just don’t want to take responsibility for making that decision? [00:06:58] Isle McElroy: I mean, decisions are hard, like, it’s, you know, there’s so many decisions throughout a life. Yeah, go ahead. [00:07:05] Brandon Ware: No, and I was just thinking, like, you’re already [00:07:07] Brandon Ware: cutting me slack. [00:07:08] Brandon Ware: Don’t. [00:07:09] Isle McElroy: Okay, we’re deciding right now what you’re eating for dinner. [00:07:14] Jess O’Reilly: Dumplings. It’s white rice and dumplings. [00:07:19] Isle McElroy: No, but I, I get in those moments all the time, right? Where I’m like, I don’t care. I don’t care. I don’t care. And then I realized. Oh, wait, I did care. I just, and then suddenly I become a little like needs monster where, um, and people are like, I thought you didn’t care about anything. [00:07:32] Isle McElroy: And it’s like, no, I cared about everything. I was just trying to be chill and cool and to like, not have any responsibility because I think it can feel. Easy and is a nice way to not like take control of your own life, [00:07:44] Brandon Ware: but also kudos to you for being able to take responsibility. I’m saying, you know what, I do have needs because I think a lot of times for me, it might manifest itself in something later on where I’ll say, yeah, no, I’m easy, no problem. [00:07:55] Brandon Ware: And then I’m eating whatever I’m eating and I don’t think about it. I’m irritated. I mean, I don’t really think I am, but let’s [00:08:00] just say I am irritated. Then I get into an argument later on because I didn’t express my needs. And that’s all I had to do was just tell you what I wanted. [00:08:08] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, it’s such a common dynamic that we see and I feel like you’ve already kind of shared one strategy or solution, which is to recognize when you are feeling inadequate, what do I bring to the right to refocus? [00:08:18] Jess O’Reilly: Because, and that’s what you allow with this character for him to also explore, okay, there are to show that there are these things that. you contribute to the relationship. I mean, the fact that he moved across the world to Bulgaria for this person is a huge source of love and support and, and showing up in the relationship. [00:08:36] Jess O’Reilly: So I think that, you know, when I think about breaking dynamics of hierarchy or overcoming feelings of inadequacy, Eli’s story does offer some imperfect illustration of first steps. So, you know, here, we’re always trying to think about, so how do people take these lessons and maybe Apply it in their own lives and, um, yeah, the piece around inadequacy and hierarchy. [00:08:55] Jess O’Reilly: And of course we can pull out the kind of parent child dynamics there and that shirking of responsibility. And it’s easy to say somebody’s better at it than me to avoid having to engage. And we see that across gender lines all the time, like especially, Oh, but she’s so good at that. So she might as well do it. [00:09:13] Isle McElroy: No, I think about that too. Like. In that sometimes we just need to trust that someone can do it and someone needs to, like, tell us that, like, they believe that we can do it as well. Right? Like, that is something, like, in, I think I’m in a partnership right now where, like, that has been something that we returned to a lot. [00:09:30] Isle McElroy: Right? Like, actually being like, okay, Okay. I trust that you can do this. And if you don’t do it, then like, it’s sort of on you. It’s not like that the other person should take over. And I think there can be often this real impulse to be like, I’m just going to do it for this person and do it for this person, which can like slowly make someone feel both inadequate and like, they are just kind of coasting, right. [00:09:53] Isle McElroy: And it becomes this sort of feedback loop. But I think just having so much trust that a person can do something is like one of the [00:10:00] greatest forms of like, Confidence and love that someone can show right or like I’m going to show you how to do this thing and I hope that you will be able to retain this information and do it because you care about me right which requires so much. [00:10:11] Isle McElroy: I don’t know vulnerability and trust. [00:10:13] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and I want to talk about vulnerability and you know the theme of intimacy in this novel and it you know if we think about intimacy as Something that comes from knowing one another, right? We think of ourselves as intimate and sexual and romantic partners. We use intimacy as a very inaccurate euphemism for sex even, but people collide to me frames intimacy from other angles, like the body swap. [00:10:37] Jess O’Reilly: Right, which it means more familiarity, more understanding, new perspectives, you know, physical, social, practical, relational, right? The other way, the way people relate to you in a different body. And I’m curious about this desire or curiosity to know someone fully and how you see the limits of intimacy in terms of embodiment of another, right? [00:10:59] Jess O’Reilly: Are we getting closer when we are embodied in that space or does that? Really knowing, does it leave nothing left? I don’t know if I’m framing the question in a clear way, but really what is intimacy and knowing and knowing another and knowing your body and embodiment, how do those things tie together? [00:11:16] Isle McElroy: Yeah. Like I was trying to formulate an answer, like as you were asking the question and I feel like my mind is sort of like, I’m imagining like trying to walk on lily pads, right? Like as soon as I think I’m in one direction, I fall in another one, but I, so intimacy, like there are a lot of things there, so. [00:11:33] Isle McElroy: The desire to fully know another person, I think, is real. Especially when we like, love someone, we’re like, Oh, like, I truly want to know all of them. I want to know everything about them. But I’m also sort of like, No, you don’t. Or like, if you do, then that wouldn’t be fair to them. I think that, like, one of the best things about another person is discovering more and more of the parts of them that you don’t know. [00:11:54] Isle McElroy: And I think What this book does and what I was trying to explore is the kind of paradox of [00:12:00] infancy. As close as you get to another person, there should still be a lot of space for them to come to you. And that is one of the things that I think was really powerful about this book. The moment when Eli is reflecting, he’s in Elizabeth’s body and he’s like, I miss Elizabeth’s touch, but he literally has her hands. [00:12:15] Isle McElroy: Right there and can control them. And for me, what I was thinking about is like, how is intimacy always a choice? There have been times when I want to be like,…
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