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Scaling Laws — Government
Scaling Laws

Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the weeds of developing, regulating, and adopting AI. They also provide regular rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news.

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Copyright: © Lawfare

Latest Episodes:

Navigating AI Policy: Dean Ball on Insights from the White House Aug 14, 2025

Show notes

Join us on Scaling Laws as we delve into the intricate world of AI policy with Dean Ball, former senior policy advisor at the White House's Office of Science and Technology Policy. Discover the behind-the-scenes insights into the Trump administration's AI Action Plan, the challenges of implementing AI policy at the federal level, and the evolving political landscape surrounding AI on the right. Dean shares his unique perspective on the opportunities and hurdles in shaping AI's future, offering a candid look at the intersection of technology, policy, and politics. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that explores the strategic steps America can take to lead in the AI era.

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The Legal Maze of AI Liability: Anat Lior on Bridging Law and Emerging Tech Aug 12, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, we talk about the intricate world of AI liability through the lens of agency law. Join us as Anat Lior explores the compelling case for using agency law to address the legal challenges posed by AI agents. Discover how analogies, such as principal-agent relationships, can help navigate the complexities of AI liability, and why it's crucial to ensure that someone is held accountable when AI systems cause harm. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the future of AI governance and the evolving landscape of legal responsibility.

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Values in AI: Safety, Ethics, and Innovation with OpenAI's Brian Fuller Aug 07, 2025

Show notes

Brian Fuller, product policy leader at OpenAI joins Kevin on the challenges of designing policies that ensure AI technologies are safe, aligned, and socially beneficial. From the fast-paced landscape of AI development to the balancing of innovation with ethical responsibility. Tune in to gain insights into the frameworks that guide AI's integration into society and the critical questions that shape its future.

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Because of Woke: Renée DiResta and Alan Rozenshtein on the ‘Woke AI’ Executive Order Aug 05, 2025

Show notes

Renée DiResta, an Associate Research Professor at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown join Alan Rozenshtein and Kevin Frazier, to take a look at the Trump Administration’s Woke AI policies, as set forth by a recent EO and explored in the AI Action Plan. This episode unpacks the implications of prohibiting AI models that fail to pursue objective truth and espouse "DEI" values.

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Moving the AGI Goal Posts: AI Skepticism with Sayash Kapoor Jul 31, 2025

Show notes

In this episode of Scaling Laws, Kevin Frazier is joined by Sayash Kapoor, co-author of "AI Snake Oil," to explore the complexities of AI development and its societal implications. They delve into the skepticism surrounding AGI claims, the real bottlenecks in AI adoption, and the transformative potential of AI as a general-purpose technology. Kapoor shares insights on the challenges of integrating AI into various sectors, the importance of empirical research, and the evolving nature of work in the AI era. The conversation also touches on the role of policy in shaping AI's future and the need for a nuanced understanding of AI's capabilities and limitations.

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A New AI Regulatory Regime? SB 813 with Lauren Wagner and Andrew Freedman Jul 30, 2025

Show notes

In this episode, join Kevin Frazier as he delves into the complex world of AI regulation with experts Lauren Wagner of the Abundance Institute and Andrew Freedman, Chief Strategy Officer at Fathom. As the AI community eagerly awaits the federal government's AI action plan, our guests explore the current regulatory landscape and the challenges of implementing effective governance with bills like SB 813. Innovative approaches are being proposed, including the role of independent verification organizations and the potential for public-private partnerships.

Be sure to check out Fathom's Substack here: https://fathomai.substack.com/subscribe?params=%5Bobject%20Object%5D

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AI Action Plan: Janet Egan, Jessica Brandt, Neil Chilson, and Tim Fist Jul 24, 2025

Show notes

Janet Egan, Senior Fellow with the Technology and National Security Program at the Center for a New American Security, Jessica Brandt, Senior Fellow for Technology and National Security at the Council on Foreign Relations, Neil Chilson, Head of AI Policy at Abundance Institute, and Tim Fist, Director of Emerging Technology Policy at the Institute for Progress join Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare for a special version of Scaling Laws.

This episode was recorded just hours after the release of the AI Action Plan. About 180 days ago, President Trump directed his administration to explore ways to achieve AI dominance. His staff has attempted to do just that. This group of AI researchers dives into the plan’s extensive recommendations and explore what may come next.

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Lt. Gen Jack Shanahan: Defense's AI Integration Jul 22, 2025

Show notes

Lt. Gen. (ret) Jack Shanahan joins Kevin Frazier to explore the nuanced landscape of AI in national security. Challenging the prevalent "AI arms race" narrative. The discussion delves into the complexities of AI integration in defense, the cultural shifts required within the Department of Defense, and the critical role of public trust and shared national vision. Tune in to understand how AI is reshaping military strategies and the broader implications for society.

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Eugene Volokh: Navigating Libel and Liability in the AI Age Jul 17, 2025

Show notes

Kevin Frazier brings Eugene Volokh, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and UCLA law professor, to explore the complexities of libel in the age of AI. Discover how AI-generated content challenges traditional legal frameworks and the implications for platforms under Section 230. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of AI and law.

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Cass Madison and Zach Boyd: State Level AI Regulation Jul 15, 2025

Show notes

Cass Madison, the Executive Director of the Center for Civic Futures, and Zach Boyd, Director of the AI Policy Office at the State of Utah, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss how state governments are adjusting to the Age of AI. This conversation explores Cass's work to organize the increasing number of state officials tasked with thinking about AI adoption and regulation as well as Zach's experience leading one of the most innovative state AI offices.

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