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Latest Episodes:

Don’t Tell Us CRT Is the Problem + Jemar Tisby May 18, 2022

Show notes

Over the weekend, news broke of another mass shooting, this time in Buffalo, New York. The shooting took place at a grocery store in a predominantly Black neighborhood. 10 people were killed and three others injured. The 18 year old gunman had a racial slur written on the barrel of his gun and livestreamed the shootings. Later, his 180 page manifesto was discovered, which was filled with white supremacist conspiracy theories.

Just the day before, we had sat down with historian Jemar Tisby to discuss the hysteria over critical race theory and why racial progress always incites backlash.

These are not unrelated events. And in the wake of another white supremacist terrorist attack, we believe it is unconscionable to continue to claim that critical race theory is the real danger in our country and churches.

At a time when reports of racially motivated hate crimes are on the rise, we want to ask: why are so many Americans concerned about CRT? And what is the role and responsibility of white Christians in this moment?

GUEST:

Jemar Tisby is a public historian and the author of a number of books, including the acclaimed, "The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism." You can also sign up for his newsletter at: jemartisby.substack.com

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From Hymns to Hillsong and Back Again + Leah Payne & David Gungor May 11, 2022

Show notes

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Lift your hands up to the sky.

Whether "Shout to the Lord," gives you nostalgic warm fuzzies or sends a chill up your spine, if you've ever owned a WOW CD, this episode is for you. For many who grew up in evangelical spaces, the music was as defining as any sermon or youth group Bible study. There was the worship music on Sundays, the Christian ska for Friday nights and, if you like REM, maybe check out Newsboys?

Katelyn and Roxy grew up in, we'd argue, the glory days of CCM (Contemporary Christian Music), but our relationship to that particular music of our youth is, well, complicated. We talk with theologian and CCM guru, Leah Payne, about the evolving industry and how worship music became big business.

We're also joined by pastor and songwriter David Gungor to explore the formative power of worship liturgies.

GUESTS:

Leah Payne is a theology professor at Portland Seminary, cohost of the Weird Religion podcast, and author of a forthcoming book on the history of CCM.
David Gungor is the worship pastor at Good Shepherd New York. He is part of the band The Brilliance and helped found The Good Shepherd Collective.

This episode features the song “I Hear Silence” from the Good Shepherd Collective. Find their albums wherever you listen to your music.

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Why Deconstruction Isn't Enough + Candice Marie Benbow May 04, 2022

Show notes

We need to stop playing hit and run with people's faith.

Deconstructing. Dismantling. Decolonizing. The last several years have felt like all the Ds all the time. It's, well, disorienting, destabilizing, dismaying ... OK, you get the picture. The point is: we're all feeling a little shaky as we try to navigate tough questions that often cut to the heart of what we thought we believed.

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with author and theologian Candice Marie Benbow who has some strong words of wisdom — and conviction — for anyone publicly critiquing the church. If you want to point out problems, she says, you bear some responsibility for guiding people to solutions.

Plus: we explore all the metaphors.

GUEST:

Candice Marie Benbow is a theologian who situates her work at the intersections of beauty, faith, feminism and culture. She is the author of Red Lip Theology: For Church Girls Who've Considered Tithing to the Beauty Supply Store When Sunday Morning Isn't Enough.

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Hillsong and the Scourge of V-Necked Pastors Apr 27, 2022

Show notes

What the holy heck is happening at Hillsong?

The last six weeks have seen a seesaw of scandalous revelations between Hillsong U.S. and Hillsong Australia. The resignation of global senior pastor Brian Houston after revelations of sexual indiscretion. The discovery of allegations of rape by a junior staffer against a former pastor. The departure of several prominent U.S. pastors and Hillsong affiliated churches. A not-so-flattering documentary. And then the leaked report of the Hillsong NYC investigation, which painted a picture of a church leadership rife with abuse, sexual misconduct and secrecy.

This week, Katelyn and Roxy break down the Hillsong breakdown — and explore some of the systemic issues that have seemed to haunt the church from the beginning. Roxy gives a recap of her reporting on Hillsong from the last few years — beginning with the firing of Carl Lentz, hype-priest and Justin Bieber confidante, for his “tequila-drenched love affair.”

And we dig into some questions core to Katelyn's upcoming book on Christian celebrities. Including of course, just how deep can a pastor's V-neck go?

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How to Live Like an Actual Human + Andy Crouch Apr 20, 2022

Show notes

When did you last feel really alive?

Chances are you weren't holding a phone at the time.

Maybe it was the pandemic. Or maybe it was inevitable. But we've started to notice, with increasing alarm, that our attention spans are shrinking, our imaginations feel parched, scrolling has become the default during any downtime.

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy take an honest look at the ways life has begun to feel diminished — even as our devices offer more and more. We are joined by Andy Crouch, a longtime friend and a mentor to us both, to talk tech and the meaning of life ... or, perhaps more accurately, the meaning of living.

GUEST:

Andy Crouch is the author of several books, including his most recent "The Life We’re Looking For: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World." He is a partner for theology and culture at Praxis, an organization that works as a creative engine for redemptive entrepreneurship

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We're Jaded on Romance... But Should We Be? + Faitth Brooks Apr 13, 2022

Show notes

It's rough out there.

It might be twitterpated season, but we're not feeling the love. We've spent most of our adulthood single and, truth is, we're kinda settling in. Life is full and meaningful. We've got plans. Is it worth holding space for the possibility of love?

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy gauge our hope-o-meters when it comes to romance, find them rather on the low side and go in search of a hope infusion. Enter: Faitth Brooks. Faitth gives us a glimpse into her pandemic rom-com — and offers some words of wisdom for the still waiting.

Plus, everyone's favorites: Sharon and Karen join the show!

GUESTS:

Faitth Brooks is a writer, speaker, activist, avid traveler, and co-host of the Melanated Faith podcast.
E. Karen Beaty is a retired children’s librarian and early childhood education director. (She is also Katelyn’s mom.)
Sharon Stone is a pre-K and kindergarten teacher with more than 50 years’ experience. (And she’s Roxy’s mom.)

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God Is Not Your Sky Daddy. + Krispin Mayfield Apr 06, 2022

Show notes

Not your therapist either.

It's been said (by A.W. Tozer) that what you think about God might just be the most important thing about you. But where do our ideas about God come from? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy do a little prodding at our conceptions of God and where we got them (a harder task than you might think!).

And we're joined by a therapist, of course.

Krispin Mayfield is a licensed professional counselor who explores the intersections of faith and attachment science. Krispin explains how our attachment styles can inform our view of God and, consequently, our relationship with God.

GUEST:

Krispin Mayfield is licensed professional counselor and the author of Attached to God: A Practical Guide to Deeper Spiritual Experience. He is also a co-host on two podcasts, the Prophetic Imagination Station and Attached to the Invisible.

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We Ditched Purity Culture. But What's Next? + Christine Emba Mar 30, 2022

Show notes

We're not looking for a rebound.

We've talked a lot — both on and off the podcast — about purity culture. We've critiqued the way it treated our bodies, our sexuality and even our futures. It's taken work (and some therapy!) to untangle many of the deeply toxic lessons of purity culture from our views on sex. But here's the thing: after purity culture, we're not totally sure where to turn for a better alternative. Mainstream sexual ethics are confusing, without a script and quickly changing.

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy are joined once again by author Christine Emba. Christine came on during season one as we took a hard look at purity culture. Since then, she's thought a lot about sex! (Because she wrote a book on it.) And how modern ideas of liberated sex can be just as damaging as restrictive purity codes.

GUEST:

Christine Emba is an opinion columnist and editor for The Washington Post. She is the author of the new book Rethinking Sex: A Provocation.

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We Worked at Christianity Today. And We Have Thoughts About the New Report. Mar 23, 2022

Show notes

Et tu, CT?

Nary a week seems to go by these days without revelations of leaders behaving badly in Christian organizations. Last week, the headlines hit close to home when a new report came out from the the flagship evangelical magazine — and our former workplace — detailing a history of sexual harassment going unchecked within Christianity Today's leadership. The report was heartbreaking to read — and yet not entirely surprising for either of us.

In this episode, we react to the report and reflect on our experiences at CT, as well as at other male-dominated Christian organizations. We also explore some tough questions — about the ways in which theology can undergird a sexist workplace culture, how internalized misogyny can keep women silent and what we might do differently if we worked there now.

Read the whole report from Christianity Today here.

A post-production clarification: While the CT report indicated that HR didn't add formal disciplinary updates to former employees' files, HR leaders did take notes.

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Did the Pandemic Make Me a Jerk? Mar 16, 2022

Show notes

I can't go in. Nobody is wearing a mask.

Look, pandemic polarization was a real thing. We all saw it: school board blow ups, fist fights on air planes, anti-vax protests at state capitols. But for most of us, the fallout was more personal, closer to home. We felt conflicted over whether to attend a friend's wedding. Our parents cancelled Christmas — or didn't. An aunt is no longer on speaking terms with a cousin over vaccine differences.

But do you ever worry ... maybe all those judgment calls you had to make made you judgmental?

Katelyn and Roxy are back for season three and they are joined by the fabulous podcasting duo Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers from Pantsuit Politics to discuss, well, the politics of the pandemic. But, more really, whether there's a path forward together. Can we heal the deep divides between us? And what will that take from me?

GUESTS: