PR Wars is a public relations podcast that promotes best practices in corporate communications, media relations, crisis communications, executive communications, and social media.
PR Wars Podcast: Engaging in social issues
Apr 18, 2021
As corporations weigh-in on social issues, communicators are learning to become a company conscience. On today's PR Wars, we talk with Anthony Hayes, Founder and President of The Hayes Initiative. Learn what you should think about as your company navigates the winds of social change.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Black Lives Matter, Save the planet, End human trafficking. Social issues are thrusting corporations into the media, as the country's moral compass. And communicators are learning to become a company conscience. Well joining us on PR Wars today, we talk with the Founder and President of The Hayes Initiative. It's a public affairs and strategic communications firm. It helps leaders at the highest levels, accomplish goals without shying away from making the hard call. Anthony Hayes, thank you for joining us on PR Wars.
Anthony Hayes Thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here.
Chris Shigas Companies that are now really more than ever before becoming a moral compass for the nation. Sure, engaging in social issues should accompany engage in social.
Anthony Hayes So we're jumping right in? In other words?
Yeah. So listen, I think that, you know, what we have seen is fairly extraordinary. In that I think a lot of to your point, a lot of C suite executives are jumping in more than they probably ever have. My guess is there's a handful of them and are but that would prefer to not be because I think they would rather sort of like, just be sort of doing business as usual. But I think the world has sort of gotten to a place where we're having some really needed and necessary conversations, certainly, or if you talked about social justice, if you talk about equality and equity in the workplace, I think those are a lot of very needed conversations in order to break down some of the systemic problems that are fairly obvious. And so how do you do that, in a way that is that is truly authentic to your company, right? Because I think a lot of times, it's easy to think that you should, it's easy to lose sight of, I think is probably a better way to say it, of who you serve. Right. And so you have, you know, your investors, you have your you have your internal employees. And then obviously, your customers, right, all those people are living in this time of uncertainty, this time of upheaval, this time of what has been a really, really difficult year beyond just COVID-19 if you're in America, you know, politically it's been a very, very difficult for years, and is very divided. And so people, you know, your employees, stakeholders, and customers are all just sort of living in this upheaval. And and they're looking for any place that can deliver solid, hopeful, clear messaging. And so I think that, you know, with your generally starts with employees who are really pushing the C suite, to comment, right, not to mention, obviously, all of the customers that are also wanting their brands, the reality is customers want their brands to speak up, but then they have to figure out how they're going to do it in an authentic way. I'm not entirely sure people need to weigh in on everything. Like if it's not authentic to who you are as a company or you know, there's not a real reason for you to you really need to ask yourself, what do we get out of Wayne into this and in the one thing I would always advise everybody if you do way into it, you better describe it and talk about talk about it through the values that you live every day versus hopefully you know, listen, if you have had to have a reckoning and you realize you haven't been living up to the values you wanted to then you better own that and do your man Koba and and then sort of march forward and sometimes it's easy to see that an issue is relevant to your brand, but sometimes it's a little bit of a gray area, right? So absolutely look at like the Georgia voting law issue. And delta and Coca Cola weigh in. Well, that makes sense because they're headquartered in Atlanta. Even if you go to the other side of the aisle, and and look at maybe like a hobby lobby, chick fil a or whatever.
Chris Shigas my pillow guy is saying, sure, you know, you you have engagement in the this political space? How do you go through figuring out if this is an authentic issue for my brand? And if this makes sense for me to engage?
Anthony Hayes Yeah, I think first of all, you have to ask yourself why, you know, are you compelled because people are calling you out? Or are you compelled because you want to speak to the values of your company. And so I think obviously, the ideal place would be, if you feel like as a company and the brand that you are and what you deliver into the universe, for whatever reason, to your to your correct point, whether no matter where you fall on the spectrum of, you know, left or right or conservative or liberal, you're going to speak out, you're going to frustrate some people when you speak out. And so you better make sure that it is very true to who you are, and why you're doing it. So you should sort of hopefully have some, the ability to be authentic about your communication, meaning that you have a good track record already. But if you're being called out for it, you know, we live in a time where it can really get dicey if you don't sort of handle those kinds of moments carefully. And I think a lot of times when there is a growing and growing cry for a company or an organization or a leader to speak out against something, and then they finally do it, then it seems like well, you only did it, because you've got forced to
Chris Shigas write, it is an issue, right? Like, especially as a communicator, because you have to figure out, Okay, this is how we could respond. And then you have to sell that internally and get these approvals. And you want to be fast. At the same time, maybe in a given issued, all the facts aren't out yet. Correct. And and then, if you wait too long, with this approval process, then you look like a Johnny come lately, who's just, you know, doing it for appearance sakes,
Anthony Hayes yes. 100%. It is a rock and a hard place. For communicators. And in particular, similar to what you were describing as somebody whose job it is to, you know, your phone rings with the CEOs saying, are we speaking out on this or not, you know, or I saw the tweets, what are we doing, and then you have to craft it, you have to put it together, and then you have to move it along. And you have to make sure to your point, you have your facts straight. And if they're not straight, then you better figure out how to make it clear, they're not and there's going to be more to come so that you give yourself room and your organization room because certainly in a crisis situation or something that's rapidly moving. The reality is, is you need to, you need to acknowledge there's something that's going on, you need to acknowledge your values. I'm a big believer in that, because I think a lot of people miss that opportunity.
Chris Shigas And that's some work on the front end to do. Right, right. Yeah,
Anthony Hayes that's right. When you're going away and doing all these retreats and thinking about what are we doing for this year as a company, and who are we and what do we believe in and what's our mission and blah, blah, blah, like, this is the moment and listen, if if 2020 did not prepare every C suite, and every person who's planning these major businesses who go away, and they think about that, you know, the the the leadership teams go away, and they hunker down to be like, Alright, this is who we are. And this is what we believe in. And, you know, we're gonna do this business plan. But you know, you can put in, you can put in place actionable things, that sort of speak to these values, so that when you do have to speak about it, you can talk about a program that you genuinely have done for five years, where you help fill in the blank, or you do this, but you know, because I think it does get to the point where, you know, as a member of the LGBTQ community, you know, I certainly have witnessed every year, in June during Pride Month, you know, everything has a rainbow all of a sudden, which is great. And we like that, and I think that that's good. But at the same time, what else are you doing?
Unknown Speaker Right?
Anthony Hayes What else are you doing to actually help your LGBTQ employees get equality?
Chris Shigas And that issue has come front and center, right? Whether it's performance activism, or slacktivism are some of the words that are being totally real easy to put out a tweet. But then what are you really doing to create change?
Anthony Hayes Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, we can go back to you know, George Floyd, I mean, there's just unfortunately too many too, sort of too many, too many incidents to point two. And then I think you see people who, whether well intentioned or not, or I you know, I'm not going to try to get into sort of like, defining why they did it or But I think there were obvious people who, you know, when you look at their track record, which is really what people are focusing on is, you know, enough about what you say, you know, there's not a woman in your C suite, where there's not a black person on your board. You know, your management team is largely white men. And like, no gay people, or no trans people, or, you know, like, you can sort of tell how a company focuses on you know, you're either you either really are diverse, or you're not,
Chris Shigas do we reflect the communities that we're in?
Anthony Hayes Yeah, that's right. That's right, exactly right.
Chris Shigas Sometimes there's pushback, as a communicator, you're very excited about a certain issue, you think it's authentic, you have a great message that you want to deliver, and then someone tells you look, I'm afraid it's a slippery slope. If we put out a message about this, that we're gonna have to put a message out about that. And then every single social issue that comes out, we're gonna have to put out a message about how would you answer that that kind of negative voice?
Anthony Hayes Yeah, I think it's about you know, there's always going to be a negative voice in the room, there's always going to be someone who wants to sort of keep chugging along, and not sort of speak to the values of the organization. And that's really what we're talking about, right? And I know I keep harping on that. But it is true when you when you're making these statements, ideally, it is something that is truly genuine to who your organization is, or how your organization operates, how your leadership team operates. So when that negative person, you know, speaks up, I find it interesting sometimes where I've had conversations with clients, about, you know, what, we don't allow political speech, or signs or certain things that are events. And you know, I'm standing in front of them. And on my lapel, I have a rainbow flag. I'm like, you do allow certain things like so. And chances are most organizations have already spoken out or taken a stand on something that that may have at the time been uncomfortable, but now it's safe for them to do it. So I think it's I don't think every company should speak out about everything, I think everyone can sort of like, that doesn't mean that you can't have internal communications, that doesn't mean that you can't speak to your employee base or your stakeholders or, you know, or if there is a, you know, you do have a couple of customers or certain things like that doesn't mean you can't have individual conversations. But no, maybe you're not ready to speak out, because maybe you're not in a good place on this. And you need to get your internal house in order first, and then speak out about it, or some some hybrid of what I've sort of described, but I, I think that everybody has to realize that if it's something that's truly resonates with who you are as an organization, why would you not?
Chris Shigas I mean, because you might have, obviously, like big tech companies, these are big companies that can change the world, right? And they're weighing in on the social issues. And then you have other companies, you mentioned the financial firms, and they have a lot of political clout, and they can help make a difference. And then maybe, you know, you got a company, they make blue jeans. So they may, you know, and it's like, you know, is it odd sometimes for them to weigh in on these heavy social issues.
Anthony Hayes Not if that's who they think they are. And that's what their customers are, like, you have to if you don't know who your customers are, and you don't know, if you don't have sort of a clear vision and mission for who you are, even if you're a small company, and what you believe in, that doesn't mean that even if you have a customer base of 1000, that's 1000 people that may want to hear from you. And that's just sort of, we've been heading down this road for quite a while, like, if you look at advertising, you know, go back 10 years, you know, I was at the I was managing Media and Communications at the Port Authority of New York, New Jersey, and I 99% sure if my memory is correct, it was Levi, who, you know, was very thoughtful, and I couldn't believe they were so nice and called and said hey, listen, you know, the One World Trade Center, the Freedom Tower, we we did some shots of that, and we're gonna include it in in our upcoming commercials. And we're just like, Oh, thanks for the heads up. That's very nice of you. And then when the commercial came out, you know, it was it was about genes. But if you were it was literally saying follow your passion, follow who you are following how authentic you are, you know, in these jeans will get you there, basically. Right? And you're like, Why are
Chris Shigas you pushing it? Yeah. That's what you think, like, at what point is a company trying to be authentic? But maybe they just push it a little too far, right? They want to save the whales save the sale, save the trees, save the bees. And and you're like, Okay, I get it like, you know, that's a little too much. When when do you know you're pressing on the gas pedal too hard?
Anthony Hayes Yeah, that's a solid and very good question. And I think it's sort of case by case basis, but at the end of the day, right, like, what would I mean, let's, we're talking about mostly companies that provide said service, right? Like, that doesn't mean, you have a reason for communicating in the world, you're trying to get your customers to do something, etc. So stick to what you're good at. Like, that doesn't mean you can't have part of your messaging be about, you know, what your social good is as a company, but if your social good is taking over the reason you're there, then you're becoming an advocacy organization. Right? And so it doesn't mean you can, I mean, good for you. But like, that means you've changed your entire business model. Now you're an addressee. And I think that's a real struggle for a lot. I think, a lot of organizations, certainly people that we've worked with over the last, you know, 12 to 18 months, in particular, have been really trying to figure that out of like, how do we do this? And how do we especially if you're a New York City based company, where we're living in a city where COVID really hit right, like you have, you want to sort of be a part of the message of the of your city reopening and doing all these things, but you also are, maybe maybe you are selling jeans, or maybe you are selling, you know, pizza is, then that's a new sort of, like, idea that's getting presented, but you, you know, you can't constantly sort of just be about the advocacy message, because otherwise, then your whole business model changes.
Chris Shigas Sometimes a company's forced into the spotlight, and I'll give you an example here, I live in Atlanta, and there was a police shooting of an African American in Atlanta in a parking lot of a Wendy's. And the protests that evening, they burned down the Wendy's restaurant. Yep. And Wendy's had, you know, their social media is very quirky, where they tell jokes and things. So they had to stop shift gears here. Right? Yeah. And so when you are a company thrust, thrust it into a social issue? Where is your? Is the focus on your customers? Is it on your media? Is it on your employees? Can you be everything to everyone?
Anthony Hayes No, you should just be you know, you should try to approach it, in my opinion, you should try to approach it with as much empathy as possible. And then I believe, when you're sort of heading down that road, right? If you're sort of being empathetic to what is a terrible situation. And I think there's many that we could identify right, this is you just identified this one. But when you I believe, when when you are sort of in this situation and forced to sort of speak out, and it may be different than your normal voice. To me, the moment generally calls for empathy, and you likely are less likely to get it wrong. If you're empathetic and focus on, you know, how people must feel and how we can heal.
Chris Shigas Right. And how do you know is that I guess there's not a hard fast rule of this is our brand speaking, this is our company speaking or this is our CEO, speaking as a person?
Anthony Hayes Yeah, I think a lot of people try to thread that needle, I don't think they're different. Personally, like, right. I don't know anybody who Yeah, to me, they're the same. And I would I if I were advising people, I would, I would, you know, I think there's, you know, we've worked with some people that have, you know, the business and then they may have like a foundation, right? And they, they try to treat them differently. And I'm like, but they're the same. They're, they're the same group, like the business is funding the foundation. And so you know, and I think sometimes things get set up that way, for legal reasons, etc. And it's no one's fault. And it's the best of intentions. I don't think people mean to try to be cute, but it's sort of they're not, there's no way to separate a CEO from a business. If they're certainly if they're the current sitting CEO, in my opinion, I don't know how anyone would ever give them the benefit of the doubt on that, personally.
Chris Shigas And so kind of Lastly, and we talked about this slacktivism thing, and how does a company create real change and it's authentic? And for a company that maybe is trying to get their act together? Maybe they haven't moved diversity and inclusion department or, and they really want to do more than just write a statement. Do you? Do you have any suggestions for what direction? What role should comms play in that and then what the What are some of the initial steps a company should take to get it? Right?
Anthony Hayes Right? Well, there are two different things. So the comms department can communicate what is right. And so if they are if they don't have their house in order, and they're trying to do the right things, and they're trying to move forward, but they're not there yet. That's an operational. And like that's that is operational, HR, business CEO, decision maker level, and the client from the top level. Yeah, the comms team can be in the room. But if you're, you know, I think it is always a dangerous territory. And I think a lot of people obviously create policy this way, like, let's be honest, like, we all live in the real world. But when the comms team is making policy, based on what will be good publicly, then you have a real, that's where we get into systemic problems. That's an operational and business problem that needs to be solved. If you have an operational and business problem that about lack of diversity in your business, right at the at the, that's not the comms job. They can they can point it out to you. Like, we can come up with, like how you would discuss this, how you could put out a public statement saying, Listen, we know our houses, and in order we hear you. And rather than make, you know, sort of an empty, fluffy statement, we're going to tell you today, we recognize it. And tomorrow, we're going to bring in the right people to put this in place. So we can build a real Foundation, right? Something like that, that that, that makes it clear to everybody that you know, like, hey, look, you're right. But I do think there's a lot of that where people want to, you know, I have the needle kind of, you know, toss of the ball kind of thing and hope it goes through it. But it's like, people can smell that a mile away.
Chris Shigas So it's a has to be a systemic change in your organization.
Anthony Hayes Yeah, it's not, it's not a comms problem, like a lack of diversity in your business isn't a comms problem. That's, that's it. That's it. Like, what kind of business you want to have problems. So community communicators often get brought in to try to fix it when there's a crisis,
Chris Shigas right? But that's not all right. And then when you're working To that end, right. And maybe you're engaging in some, some training for employees, things like that, and some unconscious bias or trainings or things like that, and then, you know, perhaps on some level, start engaging in the community with some of these organizations. Right? Yeah.
Anthony Hayes I mean, go out, you're not the expert, clearly, you so go out and engage with experts who can help help you. You know, listen, I think we've seen that there are a lot of systemic challenges just in our world. And that translates into the business community, there's no way it won't. So business leaders that can actually acknowledge, like, Hey, we need to bring in people who can help train us and make sure that we're not having unconscious bias, or that we're not doing that as best we can. Right. And I think just sort of demonstrating that you're, you're gonna do the best you can by bringing in experts, because you clearly are not the expert.
Chris Shigas So Anthony, this isn't a trend this company's as a moral compass. I think this is this is where we are from here on out.
Anthony Hayes Well, I think where are we? Yes, I think what's going to happen is, you know, let's not forget, and I think it's always very easy to sort of assume that the pressure is coming from outside in. It's also coming from inside out. You have employees who are asking their bosses to speak up.
Chris Shigas And so yeah, maybe just part of a new generational thing,
Anthony Hayes right? Yeah. I don't I don't see. Nor do I think necessarily, it should go away. I think I think the reality is, the more conscious we are, the more aware we are, the more we can have someone raise raise up when something is not the way it should be. Ns find a path forward to correct it. Like that, to me feels like we're moving forward, you know, in a positive way. And we're not only giving feedback, we're hearing feedback, and we're making change.
Chris Shigas Great. Anthony, thank you so much for joining us up here wars.
Anthony Hayes This was great. Thanks so much.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm eastern. I want to thank Anthony Hayes, Founder and President of The Hayes Initiative, and do me a favor. If you're looking to engage your company in social issues, be authentic. Are you representing your corporate values? And as a communicator, to have real empathy, maybe just maybe we should listen a little more then we speak. Now go get 'em.
The life of an intern. It's tough to get that spot in the agency. When you do, what does success look like for both you and the agency? On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk with Kaci Pollack, Talent and Culture Manager for See.Spark.Go.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello, everyone, and welcome to PR wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Hey, the life of an intern. It's tough to get that spot in the agency. And when you do you expect to learn. And it's got to be more than getting someone coffee. And on the agency side, what should you expect intern to do for a client? Today on PR wars, fellow communications stalwart Brad Grantham and I talk with the talent and culture manager for See.Spark.Go. It's a public relations agency with offices in Atlanta, Athens, Georgia and Nashville, Tennessee. Kaci Pollack, thank you so much for joining PR wars today.
Kaci Pollack Yeah, so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Chris Shigas internships, we're talking about interns. And it is tough for someone to break into the public relations agency. So what are some of your few basic tips to help someone say, hey, you gotta get your start somewhere. This is how you do it.
Kaci Pollack Oh, really? Well, I'm super excited to be talking about internships today. Because that's sort of my bread and butter. It's the thing I'm most passionate about. And I love helping students how they can find a great experience and an internship, I would say my biggest tip to any student or recent college graduate, that's looking to kind of break in to the PR agency world with internships is to figure out what is unique about that agency, or that company, see where it aligns with your own passions and unique skills, and then merge them together. So an example I like to use is kind of, we have a student this semester, who she's a recent college graduate, and she's really passionate about the food industry, right? Well, we have food industry clients, and so she was able to in her interview, and in her application materials, show off her passion and her experience with the food industry. And that that for us was okay, that's a need we have, and she's able to fill it. So I like to tell students to find the need and fill it figure out how you can bring your passion, your skills, your unique experiences to the table and show those off and kind of do your own personal PR to tell that agency or company why they need to hire you,
Chris Shigas right. So even if that person doesn't have professional experience within that industry, they're just perhaps a student, right, just for having that interest alone, that could help make them a good fit within the vertical industries of your clients.
Kaci Pollack Totally. Absolutely. I totally agree. And I think that that's actually really important because an internship, we're looking for students who are super motivated to come to work and to show up and you know, they're doing an atwill, right, this is not their full time employment job. So it's gonna make it a lot easier for them to be excited and motivated if they're actually interested in in what we're talking about.
Brad Grantham So you're in an agency, you're in management, an agency, you put out an ad for internships, open internships, please send your resumes here. I can imagine and Chris and I have both been in that space that you're going to be overloaded with resumes from all over all different interests. So you've got this entire stack, can you walk us through? When you print out that stack? What happens next? A lot, sometimes these things just get lost in the ether, right? You never hear back? Or this, that and the other? What is your process and your agency's process? And how do you whittle it down?
Kaci Pollack Yeah, that's a great question. And I actually love that question. Because we do, we're really processed at See Spark Go. So basically, we have an automated process where you apply and we, we actually and this is a tip I would give to maybe an intern manager or someone who's in this role at a different company that may be listening and looking to kind of, you know, revamp their intern program, we actually make our internship application sort of difficult. So they not only have to submit their resume, but they're also submitting writing samples as well as a creative pitch. They have to pitch themselves to us in a creative way. We we don't give a lot of boundaries, we want to see what they come up with. So students end up submitting videos or social media accounts or written essays, that kind of thing to kind of pitch themselves to us. So we want our application process to have multiple layers. So that Students who are applying are not just easily shooting over a resume, because it was one of 50 jobs they're applying to, we want them to, you know, actually be really interested and excited about applying for our job. So once we get those resumes, and you're right, we do get quite a number of them. Once we get those resumes, our first step is to, we have some initial criteria, right? So we have a, you know, some GPA parameters that we look for, we look for certain criteria around major, you know, you got to be in a major that's related to PR that, that sort of thing. So we have some initial criteria that kind of skims off the top right? Well, then once we're down to our core that we're like, okay, they've got the GPA, they've got the major, they've got all the prerequisites that we have a list of like a rubric that we go through, then we say, Okay, what we're looking for is a either prior experience, and it doesn't have to be professional experience in necessarily PR, but are they outside of themselves at all? So are they doing things outside of things that only benefit them? Are they are they working in any way? So we look for, you know, the classic example is a chick fil a employee, right? We know that someone who's worked at chick fil a is going to have a pretty strong work ethic and background, or student athletes, you know, we're looking for what are some things that kind of signaled to us that they would make a really hard worker, dedicated, motivated? Yeah, exactly, that they're engaged, that they're looking to do things that you know, take some work and take some motivation that you have to show up to every day.
Chris Shigas So I guess the fortnight leaderboard that doesn't, doesn't do it for you.
Kaci Pollack And not quite, not quite,
Brad Grantham when I was growing up, when you were trying to get that internship, you will literally would do whatever it took to get that internship, you didn't care about the hours, you wanted that experience to move your career forward. And, you know, oh, as the years have progressed, you know, would you say those students are still just as hungry? As you know, we were 20 years ago, or do you think that's tapered off? What is the current crop of interns? What are they like attitude wise?
Kaci Pollack Yeah, that's a great question. So I've had the privilege of working with several intern classes at this point. And I would say that they're just getting hungrier. What we've seen is that students realize, especially given the COVID pandemic, the students realize that getting experience in finding a company that's going to actually like, give you really beneficial, actual real life experience in this industry is hard to come by, especially during COVID. Because they, you know, company shut down, they stopped having interns, you know, interns can't come into the office. So I find that the ones who are wanting to do them now are super hungry. And that's also a quality we look for, right? We're looking for my boss, Andy. He's the CEO and co founder of our company, he's really invested in our intern program, too. And so he and I will sit down and we're looking at candidates, we want to see who's the horse ready to run right? When you open the gate, which are the which are the horses that are going to blast out of their running and which are the ones that are going to, you know, get a slow start.
Brad Grantham So you've hired me, Casey, I'm here. I'm your intern, I'm ready to go ready, get out the barn and get to it. If you were to give me three tips that I need to remember, during my internship with your agency or anywhere else, what are those three things and why I
Kaci Pollack love it, I would say my three tips are lead up, be enthusiastic. And remember that enthusiasm wins. And remember excellence over perfection. So I'll explain the first one lead up, we really truly believe and I truly just as a person personally believe that people can leave from whatever seat they're in, whether they're an intern, or the president of the company. So I'm looking for the students who want to come in and I really encourage our interns to come in and say what can I do that's going to make the person above me that's going to make their life a little bit easier. And that's what it means to lead up it means to think okay, my account leads or my supervisors, what can I do from my seat that's going to make their life a little easier, and make their work easier. And that shows that I'm having forethought for the clients and the work that I'm doing so just show us that you're you're able to lead up in that way. Because you really can lead from from any seat. I would say my next one which is to remember that enthusiasm always wins and to show up enthusiastic is to remember to be excited about the work you're doing and remember that this is a get to not have to situation. You know you signed up for this internship you want to be here show us that you want to be here show up every day ready to work, excited to dig in with an enthusiastic attitude and enthusiasm doesn't necessarily have to mean that you're loud and crazy. It just means that you have that posture of I get to do this today. Not that I have To where this is another thing I'm checking off my long list. And then third excellence over perfection. So we know students don't have experience, we know that they don't always know what they're doing, we hire ones that we think can learn quickly and are who are going to catch on quickly. And that you can go through our training process, which is extensive, but we're not looking for perfection, we're looking for a level of excellence in the work that you do, which communicates care, which communicates that you, you know, are going the extra mile to do the work to do your work well, but we're not looking for perfection. So I would tell students to get over the perfectionism stumbling block, and to just try to make their work really excellent.
Chris Shigas Okay, Casey, I, for one, I'm a big believer in mentorship. I really do I take that part of my job very seriously. I also believe in sending the elevator down to lift other people up. But But I'm going to take a little bit of a gruff opinion here about my experience with interns, and I know some people love to work with interns, sometimes, personally, I can get perhaps maybe a little frustrated on the intern side, I choose not to use interns. While some of my employees really value that experience, to be brutally honest. And here's some of the reasons why I had my opinion, one, I don't think the people coming out of college today can write. My experience is they're very poor writers, and the ones who are good writers, right? Like it's a scholarly paper for a scientific journal, to a professor to, I don't think any of their work is client ready. And, and to that point, that means time to then go through their work and get it client ready. And then three, being able to do spend the time with an intern that makes it valuable for them, right. So they should end their internship with a good skill set that prepares them to have that entry level job in the profession. If you're taking on an intern, and you're not, you don't have the time to teach them, show them, get them prepared to work with them as a teacher, then I think it devalues the relationship both on the intern side and on your side. So now I know your agency has a really successful intern program. So So what would you say to a guy like me a grumpy, older veteran PR pro of Hey, look, this is how you really need to work your intern program.
Kaci Pollack Yeah, no, okay, I kind of love that you are not fully sold yet. Because I'm on the complete opposite end. I'm like, the internships number one fan. I think that it's all about perspective, right? So for me, it's I'm thinking about the fact that running an internship program really is about grooming and, and developing the next the next generation of leaders of our industry. And that's really important to me, because, you know, this industry changes so quickly, every single day, there's new new trends and new things that we can be doing in our space. And I think that our our intern level students, and employees are the ones who are going to be the leaders of that. And so I really like to think about the fact that like, what you doing an internship is going to have impact on the full industry for years and years to come if you set it up well. So I think it's about that, I think I would tell you that there needs to be every company should have a person who's the dedicated intern person, right, um, which makes what those things that you were describing that can be kind of difficult, that makes those that makes it easier when you have a person who's there to train them to make sure that they know how to do the things that fall under their responsibilities, who's there to answer all their questions, as we know, interns tend to have a lot of questions, have that person in place to kind of feel that? And then I think it's all in your training, right? So, um, and in your in your recruitment, so you don't
Chris Shigas just want them to be stapling papers, right? Like you want them to do real work that they can they can use, right. So as an employer as as a corporation, or as an agency, what is it that you can expect an intern to be able to do to really help?
Kaci Pollack Yeah, well, even to your point a few minutes ago about, you know, students being able to write which is the number one skill you need to have in our industry, right? In our internship application process. Why we do make it so extensive, and we do have them send writing samples and we do have certain criteria that we're falling into, but then it all really comes in The training of the intern so when they come in their first week, is spent doing a super deep dive into all of the assignment types that they're going to be working on the things that they're going to be researching. So the core of our internship is writing, researching and reporting. So we want to make sure we're training them the way that the SSG way. So whatever way that your company does it, you need to be training them from day one, how to write how to research, how to report how to do those things at your company, so that they can be successful. And I think it's all in the training. Because you can, you can groom people into doing the work the way that you want them to do it. But you can't teach things like attitude and motivation and enthusiasm. And so those are the things we're really looking for. And then the rest of it, we really feel like we can teach in that first week. And I think it also, you know, comes from sharing the importance of, you know, development and mentorship with the rest of your team so that they understand the importance of taking the extra five minutes to walk through a pitch that an intern wrote with them, to help them learn and just kind of casting that vision for your company of, like I said, before, you know, we're getting a really unique opportunity to help develop and grow the next generation of leaders at our company, right. And we're also thinking through the internship as a pipeline builder for our own company, right? So we kind of think about it as in like, the farm system in baseball, where you have the minor league teams that then they feed into the major league teams, right. So think of it as you know, you're building your minor team right now. And the really strong ones are really strong interns are going to end up being the next generation of leaders, not only in PR, but at your company as well. So it makes sense to invest the time in it, because even if out of your 10 interns, you get three really solid, new employees out of it, who are going to come in, they already love your company, they already believe in the mission, they're already trained in the way to do the see spark go, are in how to do things to see spark go away. That's a huge win in terms of just culture and employee recruitment and engagement. So I would say just casting that vision is super important. important
Chris Shigas right now, most PR programs at universities require internships of their students. And we've seen, you know, I don't know the latest data, but we've seen in a lot of states now they're starting to require the paid internships that that there are no unpaid internships, in some states, there may be still be unpaid internships, not that big of an issue in a corporation, but for a small agency. Right. But that that is an issue of, you know, are we going to have the if we're going to have these paid internships, then we're going to have to have much fewer interns than we used to, which means fewer people are actually getting the opportunity to learn their profession. So So what what's your take on the the paid internships versus the unpaid internships,
Kaci Pollack so as you start go, we actually have a large internship program. So every semester we have anywhere from nine to 12, we call them support staff. So it's either interns or apprentices and our apprentices are just an elevated internship, a little bit more responsibility, it's someone who's already served as an intern for a semester and then gets tapped on the shoulder for that sort of promotion. Um, so that being said, you know, we actually really believe in the internship being beneficial and making sure that we, we actually don't offer a paid internship. And so what we do instead is we say, okay, we know that these students are coming to us. And they're giving their time to us in exchange for experience, and they're being compensated in the experience, they're gaining, because at our, at our agency, they're not stapling copies, and they're not getting coffee, they're writing press releases, and sometimes even listening, in some cases, or they're, you know, they're drafting the social media posts for the brands we work with. But obviously, there's editing and all of that, that goes into it, but they're getting real life experience. And so to do that, to kind of make that exchange, you know, they're compensated in an experience. Obviously, we offer class credit, we really encourage them to get class credit for it as compensation as well. But then what I would say to you is that we have gone out of our way to make sure that they leave our company, as, you know, developing professionals and so that they get a lot in exchange for giving their time not just the experience. So built in a mentorship program. So every student is paired with a mentor that they work with all semester long, and who ends up you know, being a really great resource for them even far past the internship. We also offer professional development courses throughout the semester. So we you know, host seminars in the mornings on topics that they're not teaching you in school, things like finances and health and wellness and stress management. So we're doing a lot above and beyond to really Pour into our interns because we know that they're here to get something from us in the same way that they're here to support our business.
Chris Shigas Well, here's my advice to a media relations intern. And I say, look, if you can get into an agency, and write a press release, and distribute that press release, pitch that press release, and then get media coverage. And if you can leave that agency with a little binder, that shows the press release you wrote, it shows the media that you pitched, and it shows the results that you've got, then you're going to be a huge leg up on those entry level positions that you're applying for, versus your competitors. Is that in target with what you thinking?
Kaci Pollack Absolutely. I think it's 100% in target. And I think that's one of the things we like to help our interns do is say, hey, you've done this internship for a semester to semester, I mean, we have interns who turn into apprentices. And then like, right now I've got two apprentices, which are that elevated intern role which that position is paid. But those two apprentices have been with us for six semesters of their college journey. So we've got these students who have spent a bulk of time with us at sea sparco. And so we really want to help them actually turn that into language to market themselves when they're applying for full time jobs after college. And so yeah, I think you're completely right, being able to take the hardcopy evidence and like, here's what I've done, here's what I've accomplished, here are the results of that and show an employer that is huge. On the flip side, if it's okay, I'll tell you too. I love seeing intern applications where a student goes out of their way to find a way to get experience, even if they've never had a real internship. So I always tell potential students if they're like, how do I gain in experience? If I have never had an internship before I say you go and you make your own opportunities, right? So I love to tell students like if there's a nonprofit that you're passionate about, if there's a your mom's company, if it's you know, your uncle's business, whatever it is, go to them and say, Hey, can I try drafting a press release for you, and can I catch it and see if I can get you any coverage. And then there you go, you've got your binder, and now you've got experience on your resume to then even get your initial internship.
Chris Shigas I love the nonprofit ankles a great thing you volunteer, you do some good work in your community. And at the same time, you help build your own resume I one cause dear to me is the Make A Wish Foundation. And boy that there's a nonprofit with these amazing stories to tell, it's a way that you can really do some good in your community. And at the same time, you gain that experience that you wouldn't have had otherwise.
Kaci Pollack Absolutely. And I would also tell students to in the vein of organizations and nonprofits, figure out what you can get involved in on your campus too. So get involved in the public relations, student society, the prssa, get involved in a nonprofit organization on campus and join the PR committee for that, you know, there are other ways to get experience on your resume than just a traditional internship.
Chris Shigas I would say also, one last kind of parting thought on my side, when you have that opportunity, and you're around these professionals. Look for a mentor, look, look for someone that you can check in with and I'm very, I take a serious devotion to making sure that I'm helping younger people on on a on a personal level that they can help them through their careers, they can have honest talks with me about their career path and problems or challenges. And it's important for an intern to know that there are a lot of executives out there who take that role seriously. And it's not an inconvenience, it's not a hammer on your time, it's actually something that that's important for people in the industry to do
Kaci Pollack 100,000% cannot agree more. And I think that's something we also encourage our students all the time, like, like I mentioned, they get paired with a mentor of a formal mentor during through our mentorship program, but we always tell them, we say, go out on a limb and ask any member of our team to grab coffee with you. In fact, make it a little competition with yourself and see how many of our team members you can meet with before the end of the semester, and build those relationships because those relationships will then serve you far past the internship. And that's something our team is really good about too. And again, I think that comes from casting vision and helping our team understand the importance of pouring into our college students and it becomes something that's really fun for me and my team members, my fellow full time team members to do is to see our students you know, come in as as one type of professional and leave, you know, much more ready for the career world than they were when they got to us and that's really fun and it's always great to stay in touch. with them, I have several students who, who have left our program but who have done a great job at keeping in touch with me. And, you know, calling me and asking me for advice still. In fact, just a week ago, I talked to one of my previous interns who was debating whether or not to take a new job, and she called me and we talked about it. And that's so honoring to me and see spark go to know that we were able to build that sort of foundation with students like that, and I love it. It's so fun.
Chris Shigas Great. Kaci, thank you so much for joining us on PR wars today.
Kaci Pollack Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
Chris Shigas You can reach out to Brad and me on PR wars, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn channels. I promise you, we will answer everyone. And on behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars network. I want to thank Kaci Pollack, talent and culture manager for See.Spark.Go. And do me a favor. If you're a PR executive. Don't forget the people who helped you get there. Now it's your turn to make an impact for the next generation. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: International public relations
Mar 15, 2021
When you engage in international public relations, what is lost in translation? On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk to Nick Haigh with British-based BAE Systems Applied Intelligence about the differences of public relations across the pond.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello, everyone and thanks for listening to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. When you engage in international public relations, what is lost in translation? Even between the United States in the UK, we might speak the same language, but the European to American cultural divide, can change the way you shape perceptions and change beliefs. Today on PR Wars, fellow communications globetrotter, Brad Grantham, and I talked to the head of global external communications at BAE Systems Applied Intelligence. They're based in England, and we talk about public relations across the pond, Nick Haigh, thanks for joining PR Wars today.
Nick Haigh Thanks Chris for having me. Great speaking to you.
Chris Shigas Today, we're talking about international PR, and maybe some of the differences in the UK to the United States and you work for a great Corporation. That's global with a big us presence, but also a huge UK company. So kind of off the bat, can you tell us some of the largest differences between US PR and UK PR?
Nick Haigh I mean, it's it's a fascinating question, because for two countries that are so similar in terms of culture, and language, and all of the shamans same ideals that we share, there are an incredible amount of differences when it comes to PR. I mean, perhaps it perhaps if I start a little bit and just talk about England for a moment, and how PR generally works in England, our media is very London centric. So England, as I'm sure you know, compared to America is a tiny, tiny country, we only really have one or two large cities that we've compared to anything that you have. And as a result, our nation is very London centric. And this means that the media are all based out of London. I mean, there's been a lot of efforts to try and diversify, but they are all based in London,
Chris Shigas it helps for media tours, right? You go to one city.
Nick Haigh Indeed, exactly. And as a result, you know, all the media is based there, as you saying it's great. So if you have a London office, it is a lot easier to do media. And that's one of the interesting things as well. So our media is set up in quite a, I don't know, it's a unique way. But in terms of our print media, you know, the traditional print media, we've got quite a rigid system, whether there are the Nationals there significant national newspapers, which are very well respected. Telegraph, The Guardian times, we have the tabloids along the lines of the Sun star there, the Daily Mail that is sent popular online. And then below that you sort of have the regional media, which doesn't really have much of a foothold anymore. It's pretty much all about on national media, you know, the tabloids and the broadsheets, as we call them their national newspapers. And then of course, I'm sure you've heard of the BBC, which is in his own independent category. It's probably one of the things that England and the UK is most known for. And fascinatingly, with the BBC, they are our broadcaster chief broadcaster, but also probably the most popular news website. And the fascinating thing about them is they have to be politically neutral, they can't favor one side or the other. And the best thing about it is if you are left leaning, you will be convinced that they favor the right. If you are right leaning, you'll be sure that they favor the left because ultimately they serve like a governmental public goods service. Right. If that the position is effectively it's a public charter, so they have a responsibility to inform their news in a non sensational way. They have to be honest, they're, you know, very different to our tabloids, which are notoriously awful. And yeah, they have to be held to a very high regard. Very proper nuisance.
Chris Shigas You know, Brad, what it sounds like when I was a news producer in Alabama, if I did five seconds more of Auburn coverage than University of Alabama, I was getting phone calls into the newsroom.
Brad Grantham Yeah, yeah. And and to be fair, over the past 25 years, I would almost say with the addition of fox news to cable, you know, in the 90s we have seen you know, that erode years ago over the years. You know, I'm looking at a picture above my desk and as Walter Cronkite says, reelect the most trusted man in America. That was from the late 60s and You have three, you know, three networks, right? ABC, CBS, NBC, you took pretty much what they said to the bank back then. But yeah, I mean, I almost wish we could kind of go back in some sense to, you know, well, we can watch this, trust this, that they've done as much due diligence as they can, and they're not partisan. So I do admire that about the BBC.
Chris Shigas Absolutely. So when you're putting together some some media pitches in the UK, and I guess the most basic form of PR is, is the press release, right? And so what kind of considerations do you have in the UK, when you're putting together these press releases, and you're blasting them out
Nick Haigh in the press release is fascinating, because a lot of people say the press release is dead, it doesn't work. And to an extent that, you know, there is some truth in that, but you the value of the press release is still significant. If you are announcing a contract, when you know your most traditional probably PR output contract, when you've got to do a press release is what will cut through the noise get shared the most. And another interesting thing about press releases these days are they have a lot of value, I think on social media, and particularly for marketing purposes. So whilst a lot of journalists in the UK are probably sick to death of preferent, press releases and may not pay that much attention, certainly to engage your external audience via social channels, they are quite well received and well regarded. But I mean, your main thing these days with getting press coverage is you've got to build those personal relationships with journalists, you've got to identify the outlets, you want to get into the right journalists in the right outlet. And you've got to make sure you've got the right story that we'll be interested in. So it's, it's a lot about relationship building, and it's taking a targeted approach to who you want to get into.
Brad Grantham Well, we'll get we'll go into how you cut through the clutter, again, from a UK perspective, versus the US, because I'm sure there's a lot of differences there. But what has been your biggest frustration in dealing with American media versus European media, like what has just left you either dumbfounded or you just go? Well, this normally doesn't happen.
Nick Haigh The first thing that I think surprises everyone in Britain, and this will sound stupid, is just how massive America is and how how different the media is like, you know, we've got the BBC, you know, the Telegraph, The Guardian, they're read in the entire country, whereas in America, like I don't have as many options to reach all of America. You know, I compare it to musicians, when they're trying to crack America, they have to take it step by step. And I think we've got to take the same approach that we want to hit New York, we got to focus on the New York press. We want to hit California, we got to find the revised California impresses, it's not like we can go to an a, an equivalent sort of publication, although, of course, in the, in the American times, New York Times sorry, New York Times,
sure. Your times, I assure that has the gravitas on a on a statewide level and others do as well, I'm sure but yeah, biggest challenge is taking that state approach rather than a national approach.
Chris Shigas It's like 50 countries, right? And you look at a paper, some of the papers, My hometown is Atlanta, Georgia, that's circulation rate is is larger than a lot of country's major newspaper. Or if you look in Texas, like the Houston Chronicle, same thing, huge hit huge circulations reaches very segmented. From a from a b2b standpoint, you can reach certain industries and certain cities because certain US cities, focus on industries, maybe Houston's oil or gas, maybe Charlotte is banking. So I agree with you. I also think one of the challenges in your role as doing international comms is just some simple things like timing, at what time do you put out a press release? Because if you're going to put it out London time in the morning, before the markets open, that really leaves California half a day behind. Right?
Nick Haigh Yeah, it's, it's, it's so awkward. And then when you factor in, you know, if you want to hit Australia and Singapore as well, you just get stuck. It's, it's, it's really hard. I mean, there's, there's just so many differences as well, like, if you know, in London, if we want to do a big press event to kick off a campaign, we might host them at our London office, or we may rent a nice venue in London and invite journalists along. And you know, they'll generally turn up they don't have to travel far they know they're going to get some good news and good content, which they can write about. What we find is quite different in America. Like if I was to invite someone to our office, I don't know if they'd turn up. Whereas I have to take a different approach, which we do in England as well. But you know, I have to hit the streets back to go directly to their offices with our spokesperson to talk to them and it's a slightly different approach, but it's it's always interesting, and I think a lot of Brits will struggle when they try to do what they do.
In the UK and try and apply the exact same methodology to America, it just, it doesn't always work. It's very different. In your experience, who do you find to be the more determined reporter. And what I mean by that is a reporter who wants, you know, a large amount of data or a larger amount of proof points for whatever you're talking about, Would you say that's the American reporter, or the European reporter?
I mean, Europe is fascinating, because actually, each country in Europe is completely different. The French media, the German media, the British media, all completely different with different interests and approaches. So again, it's hilarious to compare America and Europe is hard. Because it's different. It's a bit like comparing England and you know, all of the states of America. So it's quite tricky.
Brad Grantham So one of the differences I've noticed over the past couple of years is universities and America, Canada, have added a large amount of degreed programs in public relations, which is a shift from the journalism programs that you know, 20 years ago existed maybe at a marketing minor or even a public relations minor back then now it's become fully specialized degree programs. Would you say that trend is continuing across the pond to the UK as a more general degrees that still exists, and you have to get like a special certificate or something in public relations?
Nick Haigh Yeah, I think you're ahead of us as America often is, unfortunately, I don't think we have those specialist degrees in PR yet. I mean, it's a long time since I went to university, I could be wrong. But in general, when you're getting into PR, a lot of people will have marketing degrees, they will have English degrees, and a lot of journalism degrees as well. And of course, former journalists do flocked VR quite readily. But in general, we, yeah, you would, when you get into PR, you're more likely to follow different training programs put on by organizations such as the Chartered Institute of VR, I don't know if you have the same in America, but they are very respected and trusted bodies, you spend time with them, gaining qualifications, attending different conferences, to upskill yourself and learn the relevant tricks of the trade, you can then apply
Brad Grantham to your job and your craft. It will be very similar to RP RSA, I would assume when you're when you're doing and here's another difference between our countries. You know, and you've alluded to it a little bit earlier. But when you're doing media training, for spokesperson for, you know, the BBC, versus a media training for, you know, let's say msnbc over here or Bloomberg Television, talk about the difference in that approach, when you're trying to prep that spokesperson for you know, vastly different mediums. Yeah,
Nick Haigh that's it's a real challenge, because I find the key thing to all media training is preparation. And it sounds obvious, but you've got to know what you want to say before you go in. And that's what we spend a lot of time doing in our media training sessions. It's about making sure you've got the key messages lined up knowing what you want to achieve by doing an interview, not just going in and trying to wing
Chris Shigas it, and hoping they ask good questions, right? Yeah,
Nick Haigh you got to go in, you've got to know what you want to say what you want to get across and prepare for the awkward questions, particularly in the UK, and I'm sure in the States, if you're not saying anything interesting, they will start the journalists will start asking harder, more probing questions. So you've got to know how to steer away from that and navigate away, spit back to your comfort zone and make sure that you're actually giving them something that they can use, because it's a two way conversation, right, you've got to be able to, they've got a job, they want to get some good content, to fill their website to fill their newspaper and to go on the television. And that's what we've got to train our guys to make sure they can do make an interesting, short, snappy sound bites, you know, it's all that good stuff.
Chris Shigas One unique difference that I've seen in European journalists and us journalists. You know, obviously, the goal here is to build a relationship, right? You want to build a relationship with these journalists and and beyond just sending them emailing them a press release. Most mainstream, US outlets have very strict guidelines about what a PR person can pay for. So with the Wall Street Journal, I can't buy them dinner. I can't provide their travel to go to one of my locations to see a news story. really can't give them anything. I found that there's a lot of media in Europe, where they can go on a media tour, they can they can accept travel as part of the story. I think it's changing a little bit in the us because we have more and more freelancers, and they're writing for multiple outlets and they can actually Some of these things. So tell me about the UK? Are you able to buy dinner for a PR person? Are you able to give travel?
Nick Haigh It's so fascinating question. So speaking personally, I would be terrified about buying dinner for a journalist, not just because the journalists might not be able to accept it, but all of our own capital, the company you work for have a very strict rules on ethical behavior, and what is it spend with a supplier, and a journalist would probably fall under that, you know, finding things. So we have to be completely aboveboard. So you know, I might buy someone a cup of coffee, but I wouldn't really want to do anything else. Again, you know, traditional press trips, you know, they're not as common these days. I mean, some industries will still do a sports industry will do entertainment, you know, computer game industry, they will probably fly journalists around the world to do something exciting. But your traditional, you know, London based media, you'd probably expect them just to travel to your office or to the venue, you're going to, you would put on like a bit of coffee, some food breakfast, if it's a breakfast briefing lunch, if it's over lunch, you'd be a good host. But certainly you'd I don't think it wouldn't be common to pay for someone to come to travel to your site. That would be very unusual. Okay.
Brad Grantham I just I just hope you wouldn't serve blood pudding or what is that? black pudding? Yeah, that's that's just rank. It's a delicacy. But it's the right one.
Chris Shigas Yeah, but Louisiana doesn't have any rank food right.
Brad Grantham Now we just have we have alligator alligator don't get mixed started on alligators. We've gone through a challenging year for all of us. I mean, we've all been affected in one way or COVID 19. What would you say has changed for you? And perhaps some of your colleagues or former colleagues? And the way they think of PR going forward? I mean, what will you do differently going forward?
Nick Haigh I mean, not not really in terms of tactics, but the biggest impact is, is working from home. So I mean, then, I feel like that's probably more common in the states already. But in the UK, it's traditional, you go to the office, you do your hours you go home. So that's been a really big change. And I think for journalists as well, then similar, though, I mean, again, journalists probably work from home a bit more than traditional office workers. But that's been the biggest change. So finding ways to get a hold of journalists has been a bit harder, I found, I mean, you know, you have your normal check ins, you might catch up with people, invite them over to your office for a coffee, you can't do any of that. So it's harder to have those basic catch ups that you would have with your regular contacts. So that's, that's been a real challenge. So you got to work hard, again, to almost to create the news to find something that will be of interest to your contacts to share with them. So we spent a lot of time trying to develop thought leadership, which is a terrible buzzword that everyone uses. But we really focus a lot on thought leadership. So giving them something interesting to work with. An interesting idea. I thought leadership stuff is some of the things I've found that hasn't really worked that great in America, I don't know what you think, Brad, but I think in the UK, it won't surprise you. We think it's great. It's brilliant, we've done something great. It's gonna work everywhere. And we take it to the states doesn't necessarily,
Brad Grantham but let's talk about that. You know, I think the thought leadership stuff in the UK and in Europe in general, I think the press is a little bit more. I say this relaxed, as, as opposed to the US because the US changes by the second, you've got all the competing stations and networks trying to one up each other. And that's what they're focused on. So almost from a US perspective, you know, if you really want to make an impression, you almost have to news jack, the coverage find a way how can we get in on this topic at this moment? Do we have something substantive to share? And can we get in that conversation?
Chris Shigas I agree with you about the newsjacking comment for sure. And you know, the pace of the news cycle in the US is is fast pace. It's it's really dominated by US politics and some current events, whether it be things like Black Lives Matter and protests like that. And and the US News doesn't is not interested at all in international, you do not see the way the BBC covers news. internationally. You don't you do not see that in the US. And that, that leads to a perhaps some ignorance in the US part about what's going on in the world. And the closest thing we may have to that, frankly, is the PBS news hour, right?
Brad Grantham I mean, base to a compared to a BBC broadcast, potentially. So Nick,
Unknown Speaker So Nick Haigh,
Chris Shigas thank you so much for joining us on PR wars.
Nick Haigh Thanks, Chris. And Brad is great spend time with you. Great to chat about PR.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new episode of PR wars every Sunday night at 8pm Eastern. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars team worldwide. I'd like to thank Nick Haigh, head of global external communications at BAE Systems Applied Intelligence. Do me a favor. When you're reaching out to media internationally, play on their terms. Don't expect them to adjust to your culture. Look at your timing, the relevance and don't ignore the differences… embrace them. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Strategy for Wikipedia
Feb 22, 2021
Is Wikipedia in your communication plan? On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk with Josh Greene, CEO of The Mather Group about strategies to make the world's largest reference site work for you.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey, everyone, welcome to PR wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Look it up on Wikipedia. I mean, how many times a day do I say that to myself when I'm searching? Chances are if someone wants to learn about your brand, the likely take a look at your Wikipedia page. It's the largest reference site in the world. It attracts 1.7 billion unique visitors a month. In many cases, Wikipedia is completely ignored in public relations and communication plans. Well, that stops today. Our guest on today's PR Wars is the leader of a digital marketing agency. And, one of its specialties is Wikipedia. So welcome to the show, the CEO of the Mather Group. Josh Greene, thanks for joining PR Wars today.
Josh Greene Chris, thanks for having me.
Chris Shigas This is something I'm really excited about. Because I've been in public relations for decades. And this is probably the most important marketing tool for your brand. That is usually completely ignored. Wikipedia. I mean, that's the first place people go when they want to learn about you, there's so much mystery around the proper ways to strategically position your Wikipedia page. Or even if you can, or should influence your Wikipedia page. So so so tell me you have a great Wikipedia program at your agency and tell me where do you start with clients who are looking for counsel,
Josh Greene usually, it's an education process, before we do anything in terms of here's what's possible, here's what's not possible, and here's a reasonable expectation of what you might be able to achieve with your page. And for a lot of clients, they just want to get to neutral. They know Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It's not designed to list the 43 industry awards that you've won, okay, and they just want to have it be balanced and neutral. And most of the time, if we're talking to them, that's probably not what's going on with their page. So, you know, a big driving factor for a lot of people is just how do we deal with this? What can we do? And what can we expect? Because oftentimes, it's an internal messaging problem, as much as it is an external facing problem.
Chris Shigas So I assume I can't just write an advertisement give it to you, and you're going to post it on my Wikipedia page.
Josh Greene No, no, that wouldn't work, and would probably lead to a lot of disappointment on your end.
Chris Shigas All right. So so so as far as level setting, and getting those expectations, right, what, what should I expect out of my Wikipedia page?
Josh Greene And what part can I control? The first thing to keep in mind is Wikipedia is designed to be very transparent. So you can see who's editing a page. And all the citations that a page relies upon should be visible. So you can go back and see, say, each of the 19, citations or footnotes that were used to create your page, and make sure they're legitimate sources, so they should all be legitimate sources, which we can talk about what sources but you should be able to see them, they should be legitimate. And then your expectation generally is you should have a page that's that's similar to how it would be written in an encyclopedia, very, very balanced, very neutral. Sort of laying out the facts about your organization, your company, your CEO, whatever the topic might be.
Chris Shigas So let's start with who I don't know if this the right word deserves a Wikipedia page. So maybe you have a new brand. Maybe you have a new product, a new company, maybe you're a publicist, and you represent a B level C level celebrity or what at what level Do you can you expect that you are worthy of a Wikipedia page?
Josh Greene So Wikipedia has its own definition, and it's based on notability. And unfortunately, Wikipedia definition does not line up with anyone's idea about their own notability. at all in the real world. So Wikipedia definition is you have to have a lot of third party articles written about you. So interesting. That's what we do in PR. Right? Right. But it needs to be an inner, it needs to be something where it's not an interview with the subject. So if someone's interviewing the CEO of a company, that doesn't count, because it's viewed as a self serving, generating your own content about yourself. And so that that makes it very challenging. And if you're quoted in an article, that doesn't count either, so it needs to be sort of a neutral third party profile. And I think the guideline is, is five or six of those out there. And then there's an approval process as well. So actually getting a new page created from scratch and actually live and published is one of the more challenging things to do on Wikipedia. It's also partly driven by the fact that many of the people who gravitate towards a free crowd sourced encyclopedia are not the biggest fans of companies. So that that adds a degree of difficulty to getting a page set up as well. There's a little bit of a negative feeling towards companies setting up new Wikipedia pages, I see,
Chris Shigas I see. Let's just say you either have an existing Wikipedia page, or you go through this process to get yourself a page. Now, obviously, you provide a service for your clients, can companies edit their own Wikipedia page? Or do they need a third party to do that?
Josh Greene You are not supposed to edit your own page, the absolute white hat role in Wikipedia is there's a talk page associated with every Wikipedia page. And what you're supposed to do is go to that page declare your conflict of interest. I am Josh green of company x. And I would like these three sentences change to the following our number of employees is now two x our revenue for 2020 versus 2018. And then the theory is that a Wikipedia editor will come across your request, make those edits, evaluate them, and publish them to the page. As you can probably see any system relying on the kindness of the internet to get you to where you want to go, is not designed for long term success. So there's, there's some challenges going that route. But that is that is how Wikipedia as an entity feels companies should engage and sort of post on the talk page and make requests for edits.
Chris Shigas So when, when a brand or a company is looking at its page, at a minimum, what would you expect them that they should expect that they should be able to accomplish with your help or the help of an agency? Or what should they expect to be able to use strategically that Wikipedia page for their business?
Josh Greene I think the most important strategic thing is keeping in mind that the first two sentences of your Wikipedia page gets syndicated all over the internet. They're the first two lines when Wikipedia is in your search results. There the first two lines in the knowledge panel on the top right of a Google search when you see that, and Google's even integrating it into some other areas of their products. So if you've got those first two sentences, they should describe what your company does, as opposed to you know, company x is located in the Dulles tech corridor near Dulles Airport, 30 miles from Washington DC, versus you know, company x is a leading provider of home automation systems. One of those is a lot more helpful to have show up in a lot of different places. Absolutely. The other thing companies should expect is usually there's an info box on the right side, that sort of a just the facts type of place, revenue employees do. And then there's usually a table of contents that sort of shows you how the page has been organized over time. And that's something that you can take a look at usually and get a feel for whether or not there are issues that you might need to address. For example, if in the table of contents, you see something titled executive compensation, that's probably negative there. There very few Wikipedia pages that highlight how fairly companies pay their executives. So when you when you sort of browse through that you can get a feel for, you know how Wikipedia is, is as an entity treating your page at the moment. And then you can sort of dig into the specifics of different editors who might be involved in your page. Now,
Chris Shigas now, this next question, I think, is intriguing. Because, you know, I just learned talking with you that really managing a Wikipedia page is really a process. It's not, my original impression was, you write a piece, it looks like an About Us page on your website, you post it, and then you forget about it, and you live there forever. But But there's more to it than that, and why you might need some professional assistance, can you tell me about some of the process of maintaining a page?
Josh Greene Yeah, the biggest, the biggest challenge with a page is that it can get edited at any time by any Wikipedia editor, of whom they're 2030 40,000, maybe many more. And while sometimes those edits can get reverted right away, other edits can stick around a long time. So the challenge is, many people in PR are used to, you know, hammering out a press release, you go through 17 rounds of revisions, you finally got everyone more or less comfortable, or you just run into a deadline and have to put it out. The challenge with this is your final project, or product can change at the whim of a bunch of people on the internet. So it's important to think about this as something even if you're not actively adding a ton of content as sort of a living document that can get changed. And you need to be aware of that. So a lot of times companies will say, I just want to update my page, or, you know, I just want to publish the page and like you said, be done with it. The question then becomes what happens if someone changes it when you're done? Like, you know, are you going to be happy about that, or not happy about that. Most of the time, we talk to people who are not happy about that. Because something has sort of changed on the page. They don't like for whatever reason,
Chris Shigas lots of PR people are used to having to deal with crisis issues and crisis comms and from time to time, a company may be engaged in a controversy. And then Hello, it's on their Wikipedia page. I come to Josh and I say, Josh, how do I get this off my page,
Josh Greene usually, the first thing that we'll say is, you're not going to be able to get it off your page, unless it's completely incorrect. So it's much like crisis comes Something happened, the important thing is how you reacted to it. So there's opportunities to explain what the company did to rectify the situation, there's generally an ability to get rid of inflammatory language around it. Or disproportionately long coverage, oftentimes, you'll get huge blocks of text from someone who's clearly been affected by something. So most of the time, you can work towards getting it towards, you know, a reasonable standpoint, you know, that there's an example of United dragged a passenger off a plane, you know, you can say, a passenger was removed, or you can reference it as a self immolation of Sterling proportions, which was on their page for a while, you know, there was an incident, you can't really pretend there wasn't, but you also don't need to have that degree of negativity around it. So a lot of times, if it's crisis comms, you're sort of Wikipedia is trailing after that. Versus in some cases, if someone's Wikipedia page gets edited in a vacuum, that can be the crisis sort of unto itself.
Chris Shigas If I'm a work for a PR agency, or I'm in corporate comms for business, and I go over to my client or to my company's Wikipedia page, what should I look for? To determine whether or not we need help? The easy rule of thumb is if you wins when you see any payment, that's right, that's usually a good sign.
Josh Greene You know, or the other one is if your client CEO says, Hey, this needs to be fixed, that's that's the other sign you've got a problem. Yeah. But usually, it's not a judgment call in that it's usually a pretty obvious if you've got some kind of situation. You need to Do with when Wikipedia editors are ticked off? They're not very subtle. So it's gonna be pretty obvious if you look at a page and go, Wow, that's, that's rough. Yeah, that's that's probably a sign. There's something there that maybe shouldn't be there.
Chris Shigas You got any special secret tips for helping win over a Wikipedia editor?
Josh Greene I wish I knew. However, you know, the thing that that's really important to keep in mind is there are 10s of 1000s of editors editing pages at any one time. So a mistake I see a lot of companies make is sort of saying, Yeah, we tried to update Wikipedia two years ago, it didn't work. And they just sort of assume they're done. And in reality, that was one editor on one day, you know, said no, or said something negative. And they might have gotten a totally different answer the next day, that editor might not have known a role that would have let them publish something. So that's, I think, one one, maybe not secret, but something that that oftentimes gets overlooked. And then the other thing is, there is a talk page, where you can address editors, and there are rules that Wikipedia will follow, even if it eventually takes a while to get there. So I would say just, unemotional discussion tends to do much better than then pulling in, you know, sort of the passion around a particular issue.
Chris Shigas Great. Well, hey, Josh Greene, CEO of the Mather Group. Thank you so much for joining us on PR wars
Josh Greene today. Thanks for having me.
Chris Shigas You can join us every Sunday night at 8pm eastern for a new episode a PR wars. And make sure you come talk to us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. So on behalf of the PR Wars team, I want to thank Josh Greene CEO of the Mather Group, and do me a favor. Don't abandon your Wikipedia page. Make sure Wikipedia is part of your communication plan. You're the caretaker of your brand. So make sure it's in good hands. Now, go get 'em.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey, everyone. I'm Chris Shigas. Welcome back to PR Wars. Thanks for listening. Are you stuck in a rut? Using that same old, dwindling and boring media list? Well, let's try something new and make your plan fun again. Many influencers can have stronger readership than a news publication. And today's influencer is a savvy content creator. And they target specific audiences for your brand. On today's PR wars podcast, fellow public relations bellwether, Brad Grantham and I talk with one of the more engaging digital marketing keynote speakers in the world. He's spoken on three continents, including events like SXSW. He's also the author of a new book, Winfluence: Reframing Influencer Marketing to Ignite your Brand. And you can find this book at Jasonfalls.com. Jason Falls, thanks for joining us on PR Wars.
Jason Falls Thank you. It's great to be here.
Chris Shigas influencer marketing, it's something that's kind of a hot term, and some people are engaging, some people are a little afraid. Your book goes through some of the do's and don'ts of you know, some of the perils of influencer marketing, but then how do we do this? Right? So So let's talk about maybe at the start, when you know, nothing, you're used to maybe engaging with media, right? And now all of a sudden, you want to engage with influencers? Where do I start?
Jason Falls That's a really good question. And the book kind of spells it out, because I write books, and I've written a couple of books before and I always write from the strategic perspective, because I think business owners appreciate, you know, a list of things to do is great, but I can blog, I can search search for that and find it on a blog somewhere. So you always start with your goal. And always start with you know, your your business goal and what you're trying to accomplish there. And your marketing obviously should ladder up to that, and then your influence marketing should ladder up to, to whatever that is. So, you know, if your goal is to drive awareness, then, you know, you want to find influential people online. And I would argue offline as well, we can touch on that in a second. But you're gonna want to find influential people who have a lot of reach a big audience, right? Because that's going to help you drive more awareness about what you're doing. If you want to drive foot traffic to a specific, you know, geographic areas, retail location, somebody with 250,000 followers on Instagram, who lives in LA isn't necessarily going to help you, you need to look at local influencers, micro influencers, people that are going to affect the people in the geographic footprint that you're looking for. So you really have to kind of start with your goal, what is it? What is it we're trying to do? And what audience are we trying to do it with or do it for and then find the people who are influential over that audience. And if you do it that way, it's just like you sort of dialing in the type of media outlet that you might want to target for PR outreach is, is well, if we're going to try to reach people in Atlanta, Georgia, then we're going to, you know, target the newspaper there. We're going to target the the radio stations and the television stations there. With our outreach. You can do the same thing with influencers, you just have to figure out which ones are influential for the people in Atlanta.
Brad Grantham Talk to us about, you know, the generation that's here, now graduating college, and universities across the nation have grown up, essentially with influencers over the past, you know, 510 years, that's been part of their life. For us. We're a little bit older, but not much. Except for Chris. Walk us through, you know, how this all started with influencer marketing, like what, what was the timeframe here? Are we talking like 2010 2005 or earlier than that? What's your what's your take on that?
Jason Falls Well, you know, influencer marketing, it dates back centuries. I mean, when you think of Josiah Wedgwood, who, you know, was a potter in England and you know, Princess Caroline, or one at Queen Caroline, one of the royalty actually, you know, saw his work and decided to commission him to you know, make her You know teacups and saucers and things like that. And so you know, he would then he then turned around and said, I'm selling, you know, the Queen's pottery. And all of a sudden, he was using an influential person in that society to sell his wares. And so it literally goes back and, and to be honest with you, the whole point of influence is really to kind of tell people, we need to reframe how we talk about it and think about it. And so when I talk about reframing, influencer marketing, I think we need to take the AR off. And let's not focus on the influencer, the people, or the now let's focus on what we're trying to do the verbs strategic purpose, the influence, right? So influence marketing, if you look at it, through that perspective, everything we do is influence marketing, public relations, people have been influenced marketers for centuries, as long as PR, you know, PR goes back a couple of centuries now, I think,
Chris Shigas right? It's how do you how do you get a third party to talk about your
Jason Falls exactly how do you get a third party to talk about your stuff, that's what you're doing. You're trying to find someone who can convince an audience to take action, or to think differently, and convince them to help you tell that audience to take action around your brand, your product, your thing, or think differently about whatever your thing is. And so if you kind of trace the lineage of it, in the social media terms, it obviously dates back to the early days of social media in the late 90s, and early 2000s. But it really kind of became a thing in the mid 2000s, when bloggers started building audiences for themselves online that were bigger than some media outlets. And from probably 2005 to 2010, you had this sort of surge of bloggers and people on Twitter and a couple of the other nascent social networks, that started to accumulate audiences that were competing with the audience sizes of daily newspapers in some cities. And so you you go through the the advent of the of in 2005, we had YouTube came out, I think 2003 was when LinkedIn came out, Instagram didn't really start until 2000. I forget the year I think was 2009 or 1011, somewhere in there. But as the social media networks all came to the forefront, and you have these, you know, bloggers, and then you know, tweeters if you want to call them that, and then facebookers, and then instagramers, were all people saying, hey, if I can collect enough of an audience here, I can turn that around and turn it into selling them products are turned into partnering with brands to talk about products. And so again, it became this whole movement online with social media, that was taking a little bit of attention away from traditional media and creating a new channel a new space for brands to play. And that's kind of what they've done. And that's kind of where we are today.
Brad Grantham I'm the CEO of marketing for brand. And I say alright, team, I want you to come up with a full PR and influencer plan. Okay, great. Here's the product that we're doing. Here's our launch date, you guys, let's figure this out. Go ahead and present something to me in two weeks. The influencer side of things, as we've seen over the past couple of years can also be very tricky. My question to you is when you're looking at those potential influencers, to compliment your PR plan, or the marketing plan, how do you vet some of those influencers? Because we've seen some bad examples over the years of Jared from subways? What are some of the others? How far back? Do you go to vet these potential influencers? And what are your criteria, as you're recommending this potentially, to your boss or an organization?
Jason Falls Sure, I think in general, you know, you're definitely going to want to use a combination of things. First of all, depending on the scale of your program, the influence marketing tools out there, they range in costs, but you're going to want to find a database that allows you to at least identify potential influence partners. So you know, all the people out there that have a certain number of followers or are in a certain topic area, or maybe even in a certain certain geography. And you know, you get a list going just like you would go into a media database for PR and pull a list of potential media outlets, they're not all going to be relevant. They're not all going to work, but you got to start somewhere. And unfortunately, the software's most of the software packages are really good at going out and scraping and finding people, but they're not always great at being able to really analyze their content, their followers, all that kind of stuff. So honestly, you really have to roll up your sleeves and do some homework, you've got to go to let's say, you take the the top 20 on your list, and you really have to go to their Instagram accounts or their YouTube channels, you got to watch the videos, you got to go through the comments, you got to see okay, does this person post content and then never engage with their followers? probably not going to be real persuasive on motivating them to do anything. Does this person actually engage? Is their content good? Do they partner with brands look at the sponsored content that they've done before? And would you buy that product or consider that product based on their content because I've seen influencers who have really engaging channels. And then you get to sponsored content and they're just like, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, gotta pay the bills, here's this spammy ad in your stream, just ignore this, you know, and then at least that's how it comes across. And those are not influencers you're gonna want to work with. So in order to vet who really fits in with what your you want to do, and who is on brand and and aligned with you, you got to do your homework, it takes legwork to do it. And, and sometimes, you know, you you have to go deep into their content, especially if someone suspect if you think they, you know, maybe cross the lines on political issues, or maybe they use foul language and your little, you know, risk risky I work with in the spirits business, so, we have to go deep and find out, you know, have they ever, you know, tried to drink straight from the bottle, because that's not gonna fly to you, I, yeah, you might want to do a background check on him to say, Hey, have they ever got a DUI because I don't want a DUI person out there talking about my spirits brand. So you got to do your homework. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of legwork to do it. But if you found the right ones, build a relationship with them over time, you don't have to do it again. And again and again.
Chris Shigas Now, I know there's tons of variable in the cost of these plans. It depends on the size of the celebrity or the influencer and but you know, for someone for someone in PR, and they're trying to put together a program, do you have some sort of budget guidelines of what I need? And what can I expect from the influencer to do for me?
Jason Falls Well, I think the answer to that question is another it depends. But what I would tell you is if you are if you are shooting for mid tier and above, so let's say 100,000 followers, on any given social network, up to maybe a half a million, that's going to be your sort of mid tier half a million up to a million or two is considered a mega influencer. And then beyond that, you're really talking about a celebrity. And so if you're, if you're wanting 100,000 to 500,000 followers, that mid tier, they are generally going to cost somewhere in the neighborhood of anywhere from 500 to $2,000 per post, it's a good sort of range to think about, but I would challenge you to not think about it in terms of how much do I have to pay per post, because almost all of them, if you approach them and say, Look, we want to partner with you, over time, to really get you engaged with our brand. If you're building a relationship with them, and you're bringing them into, hey, we're launching a product or we're launching a new marketing campaign, we want you to review it with us, we want you to co create it with us. So we really want to bring you into the fold at that point, it doesn't become a math game of how many posts are we going to get for what what amount of money that's not so
Unknown Speaker transactional, right?
Jason Falls You want to build a relationship where it's like, hey, let's retain you for a certain amount of time. And let's build content together and collaborate and really do cool things for you and your audience. Remember what's in it for them, and then you're gonna get what's in it for you back in return, and they're gonna be really enthusiastic about working with you. That's where you really get into a sweet spot where it works, those mid tier influencers, are
Brad Grantham you dealing directly with them? Or do they outsource all their business to an influencer manager,
Jason Falls sometimes, sometimes they do outsource they do have management representation, which is it can be a little bit more challenging on your budget at that point, because the management firm has to take their cuts, there has to be some cash transaction, right, or they don't get a piece of anything. But you know, especially when you get into the lower, you know, the 100,000 range 100 200,000 range, some of those folks are not going to have, you know, management, they're going to know that their content is worth something. And they're going to, you know, say well, you know, it does cost money to work with me, but they're going to be a little bit more flexible, and you're going to be able to deal with them directly. I would also say this, it's always helpful to to remember that when you are partnering with these quote unquote, influencers, what you're really partnering with is a content creator. These are people who are really good at Tick Tock really good at Instagram really good at YouTube really good at Facebook, and you may not be and so you are actually getting assets from them. That Yes, they're going to use on their channels, but you can also use on your channels. And when you think of it that way, you think oh, wait a minute, instead of paying an influencer, I'm paying a freelancer who's creating content with me. They're gonna use it on their channels, and get in front of their audience, which is significantly good for me. But I'm going to be able to use it on my channels, too. When you think of it that way. The budget problem starts to become a little bit more clear.
Chris Shigas one chapter that I think is interesting in your book, and you talk about reviews, so and and I think it's something that PR people may not look at enough how people are validating buying decisions based on reviews ratings rankings.
Jason Falls So talk a little bit about some of the recommendations you have for maximizing and leveraging those reviews. Sure. There's this really great case study. out there, a couple of them are in the book. And this is this is kind of a magical thing. Because if a PR person brings this kind of strategy at the table, everybody's going to look around and go, Wow, Where'd that come from, because that checks a bunch of boxes. So imagine that you have a relatively new product, you have a relatively new website, you're you need SEO, you need inbound links, you also need engaging content on your website. And of course, you need those ratings and reviews on all these other sites to have that validation when people are searching. Well, you can actually engage a number of influence there, there are agencies out there, there's one that I talked about in the book called Apex drop. And their whole purpose is to say, to take someone with a product, and get that product in the hands of 100 150 200, micro and nano influencers, people that you do not have to pay cash money to, you're giving them product, I think you have to go to go to the table with a little bit of retail value, maybe 100 bucks worth of retail value, and whatever you're distributing to them. Because that entices them to want to do it, you got to give them something, but you don't have to give them cash, you give them $100 retail value worth of product and Apex drop will manage it for you so that you get 150 influencers, let's say they take your product, what they do is they not only create great social content for their feeds around your product, to review it, to tell people about it. But they also give you permission to use that content as well. So while you can't necessarily send a bunch of people to Yelp to review for you, because that's against yelps Terms of Service, and I would never recommend you do that against someone's Terms of Service, you can have them go to and post reviews on sites that accept solicited reviews, you can also use their reviews on your site, which is a big bonus for Google, who's searching your site for content. Well, more reviews on your site means there's more validation from other customers. And Google likes that. And you can use their social content, I've actually seen several of these programs where you get literally for a reasonable amount of money, you get 150 influencers, creating a piece or two of content that you can then use on your website. And they're great images. And they're great videos, and they've got great copy because there's from these really talented content creators, right. And now all of a sudden, you've checked the box of SEO, you check the box of ratings and reviews, you've checked the box of website content, and you've checked the box of social content. And enough probably the last year for a year,
Chris Shigas Brad, I love the term, he used nano influencer, I think we're nano influencers.
Brad Grantham I don't know what sandbox you're playing. And you know, we all learn from our mistakes and our careers. And you know, influencer marketing, especially with social media has evolved quite rapidly over the past five to 10 years. What is the biggest not mistake, the biggest learning that you've taken away over the past five to 10 years, something that you won't repeat that you learn from? What would that one thing be?
Jason Falls Well, I think the one thing that I keep coming back to that is the sort of the fear factor for me, when I sit down to identify the right influencers to use with a client's project is I don't want to repeat the mistake of choosing someone because they have a big audience, and not do the homework to know that they can actually motivate that audience to do something. And that's the biggest mistake you see brands make now they get fascinated with the number of followers beside the person's name. And they don't do enough homework to realize, oh, maybe they've got a bunch of fake followers. And that number is kind of added. Or maybe they you know, they can't really motivate that audience to do anything. So you really have to look beyond the superficial vanity metrics. And really understand that influencers content and how they engage with their audience. And when you do that, you're going to find the ones that can move the needle for you. And that's my biggest fear is choosing one because it's a big name. It's a sexy number. I've actually gone and engaged influencers that the client was fascinated with. And I've done the research and gone back to the client said, This person is not going to move the needle, they're not going to motivate their audience to actually do anything I would recommend. We go with a couple other different ones. And they were like, now I want to use that one. And it's fine that I think it's a waste of money. And it proved out to be that. Well, to that point,
Brad Grantham what's your biggest success like what's you know, arguing that with a client and saying, look, this is the person not person x over here? What would you say that your biggest success has been today?
Jason Falls So the biggest success that's a good one because I don't mean to brag but I've had a couple. Now the biggest success for us we did a it was actually a very local hyperlocal influence campaign. For I know you guys are in the south and sec folks, so forgive me here but it was for the University of Kentucky health care. So it was for the hospital health care system of university Kentucky. But they had a new campaign that was launching. And they launched it with a two minute brand film, not really a sizzle reel, but kind of a brand cinema cinematic graphic is that he say that a really, you know, sort of almost Hollywood style two minute film. And we I was asked to help develop a strategy using influencers to get a lot of people to watch this thing when it first went live on Facebook. And so and we wanted to get a lot of people to watch it in a very short amount of time, because we knew if we did that we could game the Facebook algorithm a little bit and get some organic lift out of it. Because we know that you know recency, relevance, and resonance are things that the Facebook algorithm likes. So using those three things, recency, relevance and resonance, we said, okay, let's find online influencers who can we can engage to come and comment on the video, share their UK healthcare story, and then share the content, the UK video with their networks, encouraging other people to come back and do it. We found 43 influencers, who had, I think, All told, if you add up all their followers, like 1.2 million people in reach, keep in mind licensing Kentucky's 320,000 people. So you know, I think if we'd gotten 100,000 views, this video would have been felt felt like it was successful. So we had 43 influencers that we engaged, very low budget, like under like I think was under $12,000. We didn't spend a whole lot of money. And these some of these folks were UK grads, and some of them wanted to participate anyway. But then we said, Wait, we can't stop there. We got two other audiences of influential people that we need to reach one was University of Kentucky healthcare employees, they have, you know, a couple 100 couple 1000 employees. So we shared the brand decided to share the the movie with them first and say, Hey, this is coming out tomorrow. And we want you to go support it go comment, like, share all that good stuff. So we had employee influencers, you know, who are people who maybe have a couple of dozen followers online, but they're influential, because they have family and friends in the area. Right? Then we went and said, Let's find influential people, not online influencers, people with influence in the community. So we got the mayor involved, we got local state representative involved, we got the president of the Urban League involved, we had a local dentist involved a local real estate agent, people who knew other people in the community. And when they posted it on their Facebook page. Now all of a sudden, we were reaching a lot more people than then the online influencers could all told after I think 30 days, we had 800,000 views of this video. And we were capturing stories of people commenting on the video that then parlayed itself into an entire new suite of content on UK health care's website where the community was telling their story about UK health care, which was great, you know, fodder for people to come and read and consider UK health care for their medical needs, but also for the search engines to say, hey, there's a lot more content here for us to consume. And so that was probably, I think, the biggest feather in my cap in recent years anyway,
Chris Shigas when you look at measuring these campaigns, and yeah, of course, sales in direct sales, if your product or service is like that, right? You know, you sell t shirts, you tell the influencer to say buy this T shirt, and then you measure how many t shirts you buy, when you're looking for a longer play. When you're looking, say lifestyle association with a brand. What are some of the metrics that you get excited about?
Jason Falls You know, there's, there's a ton of them. If let's let's start by getting away from the financial metrics, and then I'll come back to those because there's some interesting things you can do there too. But if you're if you're talking about building branding and awareness, if you're talking about aligning your brand with an influencers, audience or with a lifestyle, then the metrics you're going to want to look at or certainly the reach and the impressions and whatnot. But more importantly, I think you're going to want to do either a some social listening. So let's let's see what people are talking about, when they talk about our brand or see how they think about our brand, when they're talking about it online, before you start. That's important, you got to start out with a benchmark, right? And then during and then you know, a year or two years down the road and see how you're moving those needles, right? If people are not, if you're trying to align yourself as being a brand that is aligned with outdoorsman, and and and, and hunting and fishing and whatnot. And when you do some social listing and say okay, when people mentioned our brand, do they also talk about those things? If the answer is no. Okay, now let's figure out how to make them align and associate us with that type of activity. So you engage outdoor influencers, you create content with them, you align yourself with outdoor, in a year in six months and two years, whatever. When you do that same search, do people mentioned those activities when they mentioned our brand, now you've got a needle that you've can see how far you've moved it. So it might be social listing. It might be that you do consumer surveys and you Net Promoter Score type measurements to see how are we aligned with our, or how much more aware are people of us now than they were, and when we started. So those are some fascinating things that you can really get into kind of monitoring and measuring over time. But let's go back a little bit to the financial metrics. Because if you look at, you know how much you have to pay for a placement, right, that's how much you're going to pay the influencer to do whatever or the number of placements they do divided by whatever you pay them. There's a cost per placement, you also can look at the number of engagements that they drive and get a cost per engagement. You can also look at the number of, you know, 1000s of people impressions that you drive to them. So you can get a CPM out of that as well. And you can do a cost per click on how many times that influencer causes people to click over to your website, or whatever it is you're trying to do. You have to plan to measure and do all these figuring upfront on how you're going to capture all that data. But what you can do if you set it up on the right way on the front end, is you've got CPM CPC, CPC is cost per placements. And you can compare those two, you're the same metric in SEO and pay per click in a traditional
Unknown Speaker plan in all the
Jason Falls traditional plans. And now you can say, okay, what's more efficient? What's more effective if we need to hit this button to make this needle go higher one month? Where do we got to put our money? Now influencer marketing is not necessarily always going to be the most effective and efficient depending upon what your goals are. But it might be, and it might be good for you to understand, okay, I'm going to spend across these different categories and channels, because I need those multiple touch points. And each one of them is important. But if I want to do really effective cost per click, I'm going to go over here and do pay per click, because I can get a better cost per click there. But if I need a good CPM, I might have an influencer with a big audience who's really engaging, who gets a lot of people's attention on my stuff. And they might be more effective and more efficient, because I've built a relationship with them. So measuring it that way also gives you a lot more to think about.
Brad Grantham So as we wrap this up, is this a fad? And where do we go from here? I mean, where the next 510 years look like hell, what is the end of this year
Unknown Speaker look like? Yeah, that's a good question. I
Jason Falls don't think it's a fad. And the reason I don't think it's a fad is because the media landscape is so fractured, and people's attentions are so fractured, that they are gravitating toward people with very narrow fields of expertise, very narrow, you know, content. And so social media has created a world where you can go out there and be the one guy or one gal who is the you know, Navy SEAL veteran blacksmith or with halitosis that can be your thing on online. And, and there's going to be a number of people out there that are interested in that type of content. So I don't think it's a fad. I don't think it's going away because the media landscape has really fractured probably to the point that it will never not be. But the signal rises from the noise, right? These people who are really good at creating content, have a really interesting perspective on the world are really engaging and entertaining, are attracting those audiences. And I don't think that's going to go away anytime soon. What I think will happen as 2021 evolves, and then as we get into the next five to 10 years, is you're going to start to see more signal emerge from the noise, you're going to start to see the fakers and the posers go away, you're going to see more influential people who are great content creators stand out and develop really good relationships with brands, where there's a long term relationship there's a given a take and both of those parties benefit, meaning the influencers audience benefits, the brand's audience benefits and the brand benefits as well as the influencer. So I think we're on the up side of the bell curve of this industry becoming mature. It's not mature yet. And so I think we've really got nowhere to go but up, it's just gonna get better.
Chris Shigas And the production values are only getting better, right? Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, the book is wind Fluence, reframing influencer marketing to ignite your brand, Jason falls. Thank you so much for joining us,
Jason Falls Chris. Brad, thank you. Really appreciate you having me on.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars team. We want to thank Jason Falls author of Winfluence available at Jason falls.com. And do me a favor. When you're looking for an influencer, do your homework look for an influencer? Who really engages with his or her followers and measure this new tactic to see if it moves the needle? Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Build better media lists
Jan 24, 2021
If your media list isn't spot on, it won't matter how good your press releases are. On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk with Meltwater's Cody Konschak to help you build better media lists for better coverage.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. The media is changing under our feet. I mean, media lists over six months old can get dozens of email bounce backs. And if your media list isn't spot on, it won't matter how good your press releases are. We can do better. Well today on PR Wars, fellow veteran public relations sage, Brad Grantham and I welcome back to the show the Managing Director of Client Success at the media intelligence giant Meltwater. Cody Konschak. Cody, welcome back to the PR Wars. Thanks for coming back.
Cody Konschak Thanks, guys. I'm really excited to be back here to talk with you today.
Brad Grantham Cody, I gotta I gotta tell you one of my biggest pet peeves, you know, we know the importance of having an updated MEDIA list. We can throw away those old Excel spreadsheets full of bounce back email addresses, and there was nothing worse when I was starting out in the agency world when you would put out a release. And you hear bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, and you're like, Great, great. This is Oh, wait, wait, that's actually 62 bounce backs. That's not good. You know, we have seen in the past decade more so maybe in the past five or three years, consolidation of media. We have seen massive layoffs in print and newspapers, magazines. So how often? Do you see media contacts needing to be updated? And how often does meltwater do that?
Cody Konschak Yeah, this is a really great question, Brad, I gotta say, you aren't the only one with this pet peeve. It's certainly a pet peeve of mine as well. Because I think what we see is these Excel one from from the client standpoint, write the one sending out the press release, there's nothing worse than getting all of those bounce backs or, or getting an email back from the journalist saying this is completely irrelevant to what I'm doing. Now. This was something I was doing years ago. There's nothing worse than that, because you spent time sending this out thinking you had a really great list. Conversely, it's also really horrible for the for the the journalist who's sitting on the opposite end, getting all of those emails with irrelevant press releases, wondering what do I do with this information and then taking time to respond. So it can result in a lot of wasted time for both parties, which is really unfortunate, I think, through conversations with clients that I've spoken with, and the ones have been really successful, with not only our with our media database at meltwater, but also just sending out press releases in general, is refreshing these as much as possible. I mean, I'm seeing clients do it monthly. I'm seeing clients, you know, taking time quarterly to do that as well. It really depends on one, how often are you sending out these media lists? Are these? Is it a media list of you know, 250 people? Is it a media list of 500 people, or is an immediate list of like 20 to 25 people that you have maintained really close relationships with. So I do think it will vary per company. But it's always good to just hack to a quick refresher, do your due, take some time, do your research, and I think you'll be fine.
Brad Grantham So if I used meltwater this afternoon, and put out a press release to 50 people, and I've got 20 bounce backs or five bounce backs, whatever that number is, what do I do with that information? Can I send that to you and say, Hey, just FYI, sent this out. These bounce back? Can I do that? Then what happens after that?
Cody Konschak Yeah, this is another great question. And this is great for any project, any of our clients that are potentially listening to the to the podcast today, you certainly could then send that back to meltwater, we have an entire support team that is dedicated to ensure our system is working properly, including our media Contacts database. So we do have a research team that is dedicated to updating the contacts. I think the important thing to remember though, is that we have over 600,000 contacts in this database. So because of that, it can take some time to sort through all of that and think about it this way. You always you talked about when initially came on. There's been a lot of consolidation of publications, lots of layoffs. I could be a journalist at one publication today. And I can leave and go via publication that journalists had another publication tomorrow. And they updated my information yesterday. And now I don't have my new information. It's as easy as that and and oftentimes happens that way. So again, it's always good to check just to make sure but we do have a team of people to help you do that.
Chris Shigas For many veteran PR pros, you develop a circle of trust circle of reporters that you nurture, and you know, their bead, and you know, your industry and all that. It's really difficult for a young PR person who's just getting into the industry, and they're trying to build these media lists, and they're not sure the right contacts. Some cases, what I see when when a junior person is making a media list is is they'll pick an outlet, let's just say Fast Company, and then they'll pick every person on that list in that company, and and send the same press release out to everyone. What advice do you have for a young PR pro? To say, Hey, here's a good strategy for really getting your press release in the hands of the right person.
Cody Konschak Yeah, this is a this is a great question. I always relate, sending press releases back to sales, I, you know, I work for a software company. And majority of what we do is, is sales related, right? We're working with clients, ensuring they're they're utilizing our tools appropriately. And I've been in sales since I graduated University. And it reminds me a lot of a great prospect, right? We spend so much time researching, finding that that person with a great job title, who has the great job description, it perfectly outlines exactly what I can do to help them, I know that if I reach out to this person, they're the right person, they're going to resonate with the message that I'm putting out there. So I think for any junior person, it's not so much about padding, the the list that you're sending it to, because I would almost shy away from that if you want to, if you want to send it to, you know, 500 people or above, send a wire release, you know, the the point of targeted releases is that you are able to do that research, take that time, build out a really quality list of prospects, and then pitch them on the press release that you're sending out. So that I think pick up that
Chris Shigas it's also worthwhile for them to spend some time I think, really learning the roles in the media organizations. You know, Brad and I come from a TV background. So sometimes I'll cringe a little bit when I see somebody send something to a news director, when I know that really needs to go to the assignment desk, wouldn't you agree bread?
Brad Grantham Yeah, no, I got a little die a little inside every time I see that happen. With all the investment that you guys have made machine learning, Ai, all the data that you have, how do you get the best open rates? What works the best? What's in that subject line? How long or short? Is it? And do you have data on the best times to actually send out a press release during the week?
Cody Konschak This will probably be somewhat polarizing amongst your amongst your listeners. Maybe I imagine that some aspects of this will be but yeah, to a degree I again, I'm going to relate this back to my experience in sales. And my experience with giving my clients ideas on how to approach this. The best times to reach out to a prospect is on a Tuesday or Thursday. Now until you why Okay, Mondays are reserved for for catching up, right, you're planning for your entire week, you have things that you didn't finish on Friday before you left for the weekend. You're you don't have time to answer all of those incoming emails Tuesday, especially Tuesday morning. People typically feel a little bit refreshed. They have things off of their to do list, they have some time to address any sort of incoming extra curricular emails that they're getting, and will do so that so I think Tuesday's Tuesday's one of my favorite days to send an email the other day that I always I always suggest to you is on Thursday, Thursday, pretty much any point through the day. And that's because Fridays are typically reserved for I'm going to get as much done for the weekend as possible. And Thursdays too. I think we find out Yeah, yeah. Or not. Oh, and Thursdays too. I think there's they're typically deadlines that happen by Thursday. So you really want to be able to get in, get your email in maybe a follow up email even by Thursday.
Chris Shigas And so the open rate question, I'm a meltwater customer. So I know I can when I send out a press release through mail water, I can track the open rates there. And actually, I've heard industry wide, that open rates may be less than 50%. Now that that's half your media list isn't even opening. So one of the things I like to do is I preface in the subject line story idea, because to a media outlet, story ideas are always good. There's good story ideas, bad story ideas, but hey, give me story ideas. I could always use story ideas, right? Do you have any thoughts about about open rates and how to increase your open rate?
Cody Konschak Yeah, I've actually seen no, an alarming amount of clients that just send out a press release, no sort of pitch or information to go along with it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I think, especially for the organizations that let's take, let's say, you know, small, smaller hospital systems that work regionally. And there are, you know, 20 to 25 journalists that they work with, on average, they already have relationships with those people. So it's okay, you know, just shoot out your press release, you know, it's gonna get picked up because they're looking for it. But for anyone who's sending out a larger targeted hitlist, maybe to journalists that they don't have relationships with, I always recommend to give a pitch, why are you Why are you targeting that person? Right? or Why are you targeting this group of people, there should be a reason, you should be able to help help them resonate with what you're sending over. And the press release itself is just not going to do that. The best way to do that is to give yourself a little pitch. And you mentioned like subject lines, I think sometimes too, people are sending, you know, emails in with all caps, or they'll put in, you know, exclamation points and things like that,
Chris Shigas the high priority thing on
Cody Konschak the high priority thing that outlet, they'll say things like urgent, you know, and those types of things. In the world that we live in today, the security systems that we have in place for our own internal systems, getting emails, phishing attempts, they're catching all of that. They're looking for the emails with the all caps and the exclamation points and anything that could potentially seem off or not like a real email address, I would just say avoid something simple, simple, simple, catchy and and relates back to what they're doing.
Brad Grantham Cody, do you recommend any other channels for reaching journalists with a pitch, like LinkedIn are sliding into some DMS? I mean, I remember way back in the day giving elaborate press kits in the mail. Is that dead?
Cody Konschak I wouldn't say that elaborate press kits are dead. I think, depending on the organization, it makes sense. But I think because of the way that news is digested now, it's so fast paced. Does everyone have the time? Or the resources to put those together and send them out? And is it really making a difference? Right, I definitely recommend going into social media slide into those DMS, I'm hearing about that left and right from our clients. I was actually surprised. There was like a week in particular, I kept hearing from clients. Oh, yeah, we find ourselves reaching out to them more on Twitter than through email, because they're constantly posting on Twitter, I know that I can get them. And so they're utilizing like our social engagement tool to easily schedule out schedule out posts or schedule out messages or respond to messages, things like that, that they're getting. Yeah, I highly recommend those types of things,
Chris Shigas services, like meltwater and the other ones, and you'll have contact information for different reporters. And now those may include their LinkedIn profile, their their Twitter account, and a phone number, right. I'm assuming that on some level, the media contacts kind of have an option to tell you how they prefer to be contacted. It's a little bit of a debate now, whether or not reporters want to be called on the phone. In my opinion, it's it's effective. However, I could see that you really want to reserve those phone calls when you really know that this story idea is relevant to the reporter. Right, Cody?
Cody Konschak Um, again, this is our I think we're maybe a little bit polarizing, but I definitely recommend a phone call. Unless you're, you know, unless you're sending Well, let me rephrase that. I think I think it makes sense for specific outlets. So maybe you're sending out a press release that needs to go out to a list of 200 250 people. But like we talked about in our previous conversation, the previous podcast on measuring, we talked a little bit about the quality of the pickup, right? That's where it comes in. What are your goals, identifying your goals, you have a goal to get picked up in a specific publication or specific publications, then those are the ones that send them the email and follow up with a call. It does not hurt to do that. And what's the best way to develop a relationship or one of those journalists is having a conversation. Now I know that they're there. They're typically fast moving fast paced, but still, I think, getting ahead of anyone else who's potentially in there. inbox, the best way to do is via phone call.
Brad Grantham On the flip side of that, and again, I'm not sure if my daughter has this or not. But I remember back in the day using another service, it would be labeled clearly do not call this person or are never called this person, I assume that's the same amount Walker, you have that listed.
Cody Konschak So we actually have updated updated our system a bit just due to new regulations and security compliance. So that now every journalist has the ability to opt out of our media list. So if you you, they get an email from you, and at the bottom of every email, there's a link to opt out, that means they will not receive another email from our database. So they have the ability to opt out the You don't even have to actually enter our class, from our clients point of view, you don't even have to worry about reaching out to them, because they won't show up for you to do that.
Chris Shigas And I found that the lists are really relevant. Now. I remember in the old days, when these lists first came out,
Brad Grantham they were in with pirates.
Chris Shigas I yeah. And I can tell you, you did not want to work for the Associated Press with the last name that began with an A, because that meant you were at the time that you got hit by everyone. And I think now it's a little bit easier to differentiate.
Cody Konschak Yeah, we really try to sort out, store that information and give as much detail these contacts as possible. So you're not just looking at, you're not just looking at the beat and their name, right, you're able to see, like you mentioned before you're able to see their social profiles, you're able to do a little bit more research into the types of articles that they're writing. And you Okay, is this person really the best person to reach out to? I can see their job title as well, is this the right contact for us? So hopefully, we're we are reading that down to so that we can create the best list as possible.
Brad Grantham So as we're organizing our media lists, before we're putting out a press release, how do you recommend organizing them? Should you have a separate one for every release? Should you break them down by beats and have a huge master list? What do you recommend?
Cody Konschak I think it's always good to have a master list of contacts. So you have you have that to work off of right. But I am a firm believer in creating a new list for your press releases. If it's if it's if it's important enough that you are sending out a press release to people then then it's important enough to create a separate list for it right, it warrants the time it takes to find the right contacts to hit to target. I mean, you're not just sending a press release to check a box. You unless you're sending out you know financial wireless, that's the wire here, you really are trying to get a specific message across. And the only way to do that, I think is by finding the best contacts possible to reach out to the only way to do that is to separate them out into separate lists for these releases.
Chris Shigas I work for a global company and one of the big changes with GDPR. And and actually even though people think of GDPR is a European thing, many companies are taking on these regulations globally. One of the benefits of using a service like meltwater is I could just say, okay, all the data is going to be over at meltwater, then, then that takes off some of the pressure on me. Can you tell us a little bit about how you're handling GDPR? And then what? What is the responsibility of the PR professional for them to make sure that they do on their end that they're in compliance?
Cody Konschak Great question. I actually dealt with this with a with a client just a couple of weeks ago who had questions about GDPR. So as a company, we are GDPR compliant. So anyone utilizing our database can feel comfortable knowing that if they send a press release from our system to anyone in our database, they are compliant, they don't have to worry about breaking, breaking that that rule, right. Yeah. But there is there's also the understood that that comes with the understanding that that only applies to the contacts found in our system. So the other functionality that we have in our media database is the ability to upload your own lists. And that's where it becomes more of the clients responsibility, that they are reaching out to people that they have the right to reach out to, they have the right to contact them. It's It's okay. Because those are the lists that we as a company don't manage. So it is important to do your due diligence to make sure
Chris Shigas right, so when somebody uploads the wrong contact, that that's not spread out to your entire customer base, right. It's just individual for the user.
Cody Konschak Correct. So you don't have to worry about that causing any sort of problems. Anything you add into your own account stays in your own account
Brad Grantham as we close out this episode, Besides sliding into DM'S, is there anything that you could help us with to generate a better result with our press releases? If you could give one or two tips?
Cody Konschak Yeah, I think it's a little bit about what we've talked about. But one of the my favorite things is having a consistent template. I've worked with clients that change their templates up all the time. And and it's so easy to resonate with a journalist who opens your email and sees the press release. And they're like, Oh, you know what, I've utilized this information before, it was good information. It helps connect them with previous articles that they've written previous relationships they've had with you. And just remaining consistent with that, with those conversations. We talked about updating your media lists. We've talked about doing your research, take the time, I'm telling you, if you spend a little bit of extra time building those lists out, you will feel much better about sending these sending these press releases out and you'll get a better response as well. Great. Thank
Chris Shigas you so much for joining us today, Cody.
Cody Konschak Thanks, guys. Happy to be here. You can
Chris Shigas listen to a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars Broadcasting Network. I want to thank Cody Konschak, Managing Director of Client Success at Meltwater and do me a favor. When you have an important press release. spend a little extra time building your media list, be discriminating and strategic. The time you put into your media list will reap dividends for your coverage. Now, go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Navigate an opinion charged landscape
Jan 18, 2021
How do you engage with public relations when public temperament is permeated with division... and dipped in napalm. On today's PR Wars podcast, Brooke Hammerling, founder of The New New Thing, helps companies navigate an opinion charged landscape.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hi, everyone. Welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. So you want to engage with public relations at a time when the public temperament has been permeated with division and dipped in napalm. It seems like you can't say anything without half the comments supporting you and the other half disparaging you. Arguing doesn't work. Well, today on PR Wars, fellow carnival barker, Brad Grantham and I, talk with the founder of the New New Thing. It's a strategic communications advisory with clients like Oracle, and Live Nation Entertainment. And among other things, the New New Thing helps companies navigate an opinion charged landscape. Welcome to the show, the founder of the New New Thing, Brooke Hammerling, thank you so much for joining us on PR Wars today.
Brooke Hammerling Wow, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Chris Shigas All right. PR people all over the world are taking a deep breath right now. And they're saying all right. But that's besides the point, the world hasn't changed, right? This highly charged, opinionated, consumer base nation that's divided. So tell me a little bit about how your company is counseling corporations in navigating these these twisted roads of consumer sentiment?
Brooke Hammerling Yeah, I mean, it's it's an incredible moment in time. And, you know, we were talking a little before before we started here, but starting in tech, and that's really where my bases, tech for many years, for decades now. I think we are so accustomed to being the number one story, it was always leading with technology. Now the innovation and the consumer technology that even the enterprise software stuff would take for the front and center stage. And for the last four something years, it's been politics, and it's been a divisiveness amongst that, and that's changed, right. So even the media coverage of companies, there's sort of a lens to it, of where do they fall in terms of you know, whether it's whether it's politics policies, you know, now it's it's an I think these are some really wonderful changes that have happened, where media are now holding companies accountable. Why do you have an all white male board? And why are all your employees, white men, and you know, these things are changing on a on a day to day basis. So I don't have a cookie cutter approach to every to every company. And I think that's the biggest lesson, I can always teach people that are starting out in communications, or remind
those of us who have been a little long in the tooth here, but is that there is no playbook. And you can't what is good for client a is not going to be good for client B or C, it really, really depends on a, who that what that company is, what their, what they stand for who their audiences, what is natural to the spokesperson, generally, the companies, I work with the spokespeople, and I think more and more so. And every industry is that founder or CEO, it's not the CMO, it's not the spokesperson, company spokesperson, it's really you know, people are being held accountable at the senior leadership. And so what I would tell you know, one client who might be a, you know, a over 50, white male CEO who has a consumer facing business might be very different than what I would tell another client who's a 25 year old, you know, black woman with a with a b2b business, and it would depend on so many different things, but you have to be aware of everything that's around. So it's a 360 approach, right? Because we've really seen a lot of CEOs moving forward and really providing a moral leadership right in the country, and that's good, but if it's from a real place, right, it's I think what we find now is that the inauthenticity is so we can sniff it out. People can sniff it out, right? And whether it's on Twitter or whatnot, you can sniff it out. You can sniff out if it's a CEO that's just following somebody you know, because they feel it's the right thing.
Do you can sniff it out if it feels like they're just fabricating something for you know, for dollars and mindshare, it has to really be authentic and it doesn't work otherwise, in fact, it'll backfire. And immensely, I'd rather, I'd rather a CEO do nothing. And you know, like, in this moment in time, for example, there are a bunch of people like, what do we do? There was such divisiveness when when the capital was taken, oh,
Chris Shigas yeah. Do you put out a statement on Twitter?
Brooke Hammerling Do you put out a statement on Twitter? Do you send a note to your, you know, 1000s of employees or your 25 employees? You know, it doesn't end but the thing is, every company is different. So there was the end, what I hope and what I think all my clients achieved was what was right for them. There are some there are some CEOs who have companies where 50% of their workforce might be on the other side of it. They might believe that the storming of the capital was, you know, this was patriotic, and how do you navigate?
Brad Grantham Which leads me to a question. Last week on CNN, there was a full screen that showed all the companies that have withdrawn or stopped political contributions to candidates on both sides, you know, somewhere GOP somewhere democratic. Do you think that's a dangerous move for companies to make? Because you just touched on the internal stakeholders? I mean, obviously, this is external facing. But it could backfire internally, like you just kind of mentioned.
Brooke Hammerling Yeah, I mean, I think it's when you were heading into really, I don't know what I don't know what I would have done in advising Twitter, for example, right? I don't know, if I would have advised. You know, I think what what jack did with his transparency, just recently with the tweets were why, what what? That was great, but like five days too late, right? Sort of, it's like we've had for years of this wine now. Yes, there's been inciting violence, but there's been violent acts before and, you know, so forth and so on. I think with companies now suggesting that they're outing different people on different sides. It's it's tricky, right? And I think there we just saw Bumble or one of the dating apps trying to navigate that as well. The fact is, they're 50% of this nation have different views than the other 50%. And just because and that's the thing about this echo chamber of Twitter, it's sort of like I saw somebody tweet recently, like, what I say is right, and if you disagree with me, you're wrong. You know, this is sort of like the idea of what how everybody is on Twitter right now. Like everything I say is right. And I even see that with myself. Like when I tweeted something about peloton, which is a little bit off mark for me, because I was, you know, I wasn't thinking necessarily about the fact that everybody's in a pandemic and peloton is an on luxury thing, but I was tweeting about people's experiences, not mine, but people what I saw as a as a, as a brand issue that people were complaining about the lack of communication from the brand on on the product delivery, anyway. And then so many people just got up in arms with me, and for various reasons, some of them, you know, misconstrued some of them, you know, completely valid, and I had to check myself and not be like, all of you were stupid, and I'm right, and you're all wrong. But, you know, you feel that that's, that's happening, I think we're, you know, we have to, if you're in a place, there's obviously places where CEOs are going to have to take a stand, and they're going to have to let their people know that they're protected, and they're safe. And but it gets very tricky when it's asking them to take a point of view in this environment, because you're inevitably going to find a bunch of people that don't agree with you.
Brad Grantham And to that point, you know, we have a general lack of trust in our neighbors, you know, our co workers, our organizations, at least in North America, I mean, social media has divided us now more than ever. So if you're advising a company, and you're saying, look, this is the landscape at this moment, it's very torn apart. But you've got to drive home your message b2b or b2c, you've got this product, you've got this feature, how can we break through this? Right? You know, some people would say you need to go to data, you need to find, you know, do surveys, you need to do this to bring your own information out to the public or to those potential stakeholders. You know, that's just one tactic. What other tactics should people be thinking about? Again, realizing it's not a one size fits all situations? For
Brooke Hammerling sure. No, I think it's a good question. I think first of all the the problem with data now is that it's so ubiquitous that we've almost lost like, you know, it's like everybody's putting out a survey and it's a survey goes back to whether or not it benefits that company. What I always tell the clients when they're putting together these surveys are, are these interesting questions are these is this data that's really good arise, like, that's going to surprise people, that data is going to be impressive and then also having a name connected. To that, like if you do it in partnership with a name that it's really recognized as opposed to just your company that offers a validation. And I think that's important, but that data needs to be really, really interesting, not just self serving data, you know, and not and it has to be big picture. And it has to be surprising, but it also has to be something that media or others can use to sort of paint a broader picture. So that's definitely one. In terms of social media, it's so interesting. I mean, now we have so many channels, right? It's not just Twitter, but it's Instagram. It's it's tik tok. It's, it's whether you know, some I mean, we have younger clients on on tik tok. We have younger clients on Snapchat. You know, there's now these group things going on with telegram and WhatsApp. And there's clubhouse, which is obviously a growing phenomenon in the new sort of audio world of social media.
Chris Shigas And my kids won't go on Facebook at all.
Brooke Hammerling And oh, by the way, did you notice I didn't even mention? I mean, I guess by by mentioning WhatsApp and Instagram, my default I do but no, I mean, Facebook, I can't even I mean, I grew up with it. And I can't navigate it. I don't it seems to be like, I don't know. But I A great example. And in the difference of how this this, there's just so many different variables. Now I tweeted, like January 4, or fifth? I said, Can Can I have a dry ish January, like, trying to be like, everybody in my world would know that it's dry, January is a thing and can dry ish January, I mean, like, I drink ish, or I don't drink ish, right? Well, the blowback I got on that, which was, there were I heard from about 20, maybe more, all of them men over the age of 15. Sorry, guys love you. But they all thought I was talking about not wanting it to rain in California, if you can believe it, I got messages from people saying, Go back to fucking New York, you know, you don't belong in California. I'm so disappointed in you, Brooke, California needs water like. And I just was like, take a deep breath. So my point that was you missed it. And that's my point is that not everybody should be on social media. And I tell my clients like, yes, they've been told by many like, you need to have a, you need to have a presence, you need to have a footprint, you need to have a sort of, you know, a personal brand out there. You don't, if it's not natural to you, if you don't feel comfortable in that situation, then it's never going to be a good position for you, if you're not comfortable being on Twitter, or putting out tweets, or you have to get somebody to, you know, write a tweet for you, everyone. It's not your like, use Twitter as a resource, read it be up to date with it, you know, track people, but you don't need to own the narrative. If it's not authentic to you in that format. There may be other formats, maybe it's writing something that you put out on medium, maybe it's you know, having a daily sort of interaction with people off of social. But if it's just because it's there doesn't mean every every leader should be doing it. Now a brand should be I think a brand should have a presence in social, whether it's consumer facing or not, whether it's used for information or interaction or just brand awareness, but the leadership does not need to be having that.
Chris Shigas There's a distinction there between the CEO and the brand. Yeah, you're absolutely,
Brooke Hammerling absolutely. So that's what we tell. We tell our clients, I tell the CEOs, like if you want to, let's see what's most authentic to you. And then let's work out from there. Is it writing? Is it not? Is it is it storytelling, is it interacting with media, but if it's if it's getting like your knee jerk reaction, where you just want to, like, get up there and start to fight or if you just want to post pictures of you on vacation, or you in your luxury home where you have, you know, a different a different lifestyle than many of your employees or customers. It's like, let's rethink
Chris Shigas corporate comms it within the corporate comms. As an industry, we've worked really hard to get a seat at the CEO table to be considered a function that is amongst the leadership of a company and in some level really function as a conscience for a company. Edelman just came out with their trust barometer for 2021 business as an institution is now the only trusted institution in the United States. Now it says something about our other institutions and where the trust is, but
Brooke Hammerling what were the other institutions that they were looking at
Chris Shigas things like government media,
Brooke Hammerling okay, so,
Chris Shigas so with that said, How are we doing something, right?
Brooke Hammerling Yes, I think we are. I think it's an evolution. I mean, I think there's still a lot of work to do. But I think what I find so interesting, I'm sure Do you guys see it is that when when I first started out in this business, there was never chief communications officers, there were heads of communications that reported under marketing. And their earned media fell under paid media with a very different that was there, they all fell into the same goal sort of like, and it was never really thought of it was, as you know, as anything more than just getting a press release out getting reporters that you like to write stories and the old school model, and I think where, you know, some incredibly smart and thoughtful communications. people over the years have been incredible in their impact here, but also the evolution of the founder and CEO, who now understand that the story can't be a manufactured sort of, it's not just about marketing and buying advertising, that the CEO, we know the names of the CEOs of our companies, like my parents who had like they loved certain brands, they loved IBM, they love their, their electronics in their house, they love their car, they didn't know the names of the company of the CEOs behind those companies are the founders. Whereas we live in a world now where we do they they're interchangeable. And so those CEOs now realize that their story their how they communicate, it is so crucial that they have to have that trusted
Chris Shigas person. And if you're if you're buying a Tesla, you're buying into Ilan Yuan dream.
Brooke Hammerling 100%
Brad Grantham don't don't don't get that Tesla.
Chris Shigas I'll talk about Tesla, oh,
Brooke Hammerling I just got my new car. It's the opposite of a Tesla.
Unknown Speaker What is it?
Brooke Hammerling I'm a Jeep girl. I love Tesla, but I have the regular I have and I have had a Wrangler. But I got the new 2021 Wrangler. And it's amazing. And it has it has all the bells and whistles and I love it and I can't wait for the hybrid, it will be great. And I can't wait to have an electric car when I don't have to worry about the anxiety of like I run out of juice in the middle.
Brad Grantham Well, I mean, I was gonna say, Well, at least once you stuck in traffic in LA, she will look good and feel good.
Unknown Speaker I will
Chris Shigas Brooke that range anxiety is so 2016.
Brad Grantham Let me let me jump into another question. Again, with the changing landscape, Chris kind of mentioned the role of corporate comms and yeah, agencies as well have evolved over the past 100% 20, even even the past two years, not even 20 years, the past year before we went into COVID-19 I think many would argue that it looked like we were heading into some type of recession, right? Because the market has to rebalance every decade and 100% you know, so then COVID hits, which is his own set of problems. So as you are coming to the table, our clients are pursuing you and saying, look, you know, we're thinking about working with you and the new new thing. But we have got to prove ROI. Now more than ever, to our board. What is your definition for ROI? And how do you prove that to your clients?
Brooke Hammerling Well, I mean, it's in your asking about this, I launched brew, back in 2000. And set whenever it was, it was three months before the financial crisis before all the banks quit, you know, before Bear Stearns everything, it was like a nightmare. And I thought, Oh, well, that's great, I launched a company, I'm gonna go broke, And we thrived. We thrived because of the type of service we are providing. And the same here I launched the new new thing, which is, you know, it's it's, it's an extension, most of the companies we work with already have built in communications teams or have agencies, we're not looking to replace roofing to amplify. So it's a, it's a luxury service. So three months into launching, you know, the world falls apart. And I assumed it you know, at the same thing I assumed the last time around, but this would be it that I was going to start moving into you know, friends, guests houses and, you know, become an Au Pair or something, I really the end of the end of days. But what happened was CEOs really need that trusted person. That is their gut check that they can call and just understands the bright, broader landscape that sort of perspective outside of their own company that sees the sort of that hears and sees things outside of there because they're so focused and you should be if your internal comms to you got to be so focused on what is happening with your brand and your team and your that to have somebody who that the CEO trusts and that they can get a really good read and it's all about EQ. Frankly, it's about reading, being able to have that instinct that EQ that emotional sort of capabilities of connecting with the CEOs and understanding how to navigate that. That said, really important. I think, you know, in my case, I have built up a bit of a brand around who I am that a lot of the CEOs either don't need buy in from their board, or the board was part of the reason why they brought me On they brought, you know, and so I think what I always tell people is just remember to build those relationships and build your own network because it's that is so powerful as my own network of those of those people. But I think what they saw was that now more than ever, we've This isn't the time for press release PR, we're not doing it's not business as usual. We can't just ignore everything that's going on and just pretend like we're gonna put out we have our we have our roadmap here. It's our product roadmap, and it's not we're not deviating. It's just not even if you didn't have to deviate. That doesn't mean that the story doesn't change, we have to be much more thoughtful. How can you think about how each company I work with, regardless of their business, or their industry had had a story to tell in this moment in time? And how could they get in? How could they be of service? How can they be of value to, you know, whether it's their customers or just you know, in general, the the world and, and it was important for them to be able to figure out how that story needed to be told for each and every one of them.
Chris Shigas Well, great, well, thank you so much for helping us navigate through this opinion charged landscape. Thank you so much for being on PR wars.
Brooke Hammerling Thank you so fun,
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new episode of PR wars every Sunday night at 8pm eastern, and please reach out to Brad and me on PR Wars Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars crew, we would like to thank Brooke Hammerling, founder of the New New Thing, and do me a favor. Your customers and your employees may expect or even demand moral leadership. If you engage in this opinion charged landscape, make sure it's authentic. Let's do less criticizing and more leading a vision of success. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Writing a communications plan
Jan 11, 2021
Communication planning will help you get better results. PR consultant, Isabel Peña Alfaro is our guest on the PR Wars podcast today. We'll learn how to focus on the priorities, while we write some fun into a 2021 communications plan.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey everyone! Welcome to PR Wars. It's 2021 and I'm Chris Shigas. Thanks for listening. Yogi Berra said, "if you don't know where you're going, you'll end up someplace else." Well, communication planning is difficult. It takes thought, strategy, patience. If you love to run around and do cool tactics, it feels like planning just gets in the way. But planning will keep you focused. It will force you to prioritize those tasks, on things that move the needle. Tactics that make an impact. Our guest on PR Wars today has worked for a couple of the largest PR agencies in the world. Her clients are big. I mean, like fortune 10, kind of big. Now she's a PR consultant in New York. Her website is IsabelPenaAlfaro.com. Welcome to the show, Isabel Peña Alfaro. Isabel, thank you so much for joining us on PR wars today.
Isabel Peña Alfaro Thanks so much for having me excited to be here.
Chris Shigas Here we are the beginning of a new year. Right. Everyone's hopeful This one's gonna be a good one. All right. Well, so far, it's been a little shaky, but it's gonna get better. Planning. Yeah. All right. It's something that maybe people don't like to do a lot. I'm a big believer in planning. How about you?
Isabel Peña Alfaro You know, planning is not necessarily the most exciting or sexy thing about PR. But getting results is super exciting. So the way to get those results is by planning and having a really good strategy and backbone to how you're going to execute. Hmm. Yeah, I like the exercise of planning. I think even even a bad plan is better than no plan. Because because it gets you thinking, What am I doing? What Why am I doing this? What does success look like? Right? There's all kinds of plants that sometimes plants don't wake at work out. And you have to change. We learned that in 2020. Right? If I look at my January 2020 plan, it was very different than my July 2020 plan. It's a new year, I need a new plan. Where do I start?
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. So you know, the place to start is really to hone in on the priorities. So a PR plan doesn't necessarily exist on its own, you have to really communicate with the team and figure out what the business priority is. So you start there, and then you move into objectives, tactics, benchmarks or goals, and then the annex section.
Chris Shigas Mm hmm. So at the beginning with with your priorities, these are kind of some broad objectives that that you're really looking at, of what you want to accomplish. Are these at this point? Are these are these meant measurable? Are they more inspirational?
Isabel Peña Alfaro They are, they're more inspirational, and they go back to the business. So they're usually business strategies. So when we talk about priorities in a communications plan, it's the one piece that is not necessarily about communications, it's more about the business priority or the company priority. And so so you ask questions, like, what is the company's mission right now? Or what is one piece of our business that our constituents and stakeholders should know about? But don't necessarily know? And then, in the plan you get into, okay, how can communications drive that goal?
Chris Shigas Okay, yeah, I understand. So you're looking at how communications fits into the broader business picture. And so once you start looking at, okay, what are some of the objectives, my communications can help support that priority? Right. Right, and you've worked with agencies before to what I would think is that you've done a lot of different plans for a lot of different types of industries and verticals, what are some common threads that you see when you're trying to build some objectives that you can measure? What are some of the KPIs the sum of the measurements that that you will really want to make sure that your objectives address?
Isabel Peña Alfaro Yeah, so in your objectives, you get into two or three things that you want to accomplish. So what you want to do in the objective objective section is get very clear and not necessarily go into, you know, in a million directions, you want to get very strategic and think, okay, How can two objectives or three objectives be the center of where I'm going to go from there? So, for example, you know, one of your objectives can be engage audiences, such as consumer media investors, non NGOs, and your own employees through thought leadership. So that's it, you know, you're not going to get very, very granular yet you just get that objective is going to be you know, your audiences and thought leadership. And that's, so that's one objective. And then you can say, okay, what's another objective that will again, drive back to my priority, the business priority. So it can be something like, you strengthen your internal and external networks through third party organizations, so that it's not just your company talking about you. But it's those third parties now talking about you, in a positive way, of course.
Chris Shigas And that's really what public relations is right? To get a third party to give you credibility, right. Whether it's the media, or a influencer, or maybe a analyst, you know, who's talking about your company, at this stage? Do you find that most companies go too big or too small? object with the objectives? Yeah. Are they trying to accomplish too much here? Or are they maybe not trying to accomplish enough? What are you seeing as far as the typical mistakes in limiting your objectives?
Isabel Peña Alfaro Typically, it goes too far out. So you know, trying to do too much, right. And so I think that's where you always have to think back to the business priority, it's because, you know, you can go in a million directions. So you, you hone in and you say, Okay, how am I going to achieve that, and then you also want to think about what your resources are and how big your team is. So, you know, when your objectives you, you drill in on that, but you think, Okay, how are we going to do that with the resources that we have in a smart way? Because, you know, you can go very broad, but it can be sort of a thin, thin layer versus having those very strong objectives, and then just drilling in and trying to get those results.
Chris Shigas Yes, sometimes when you're looking at the, the measurables on an on an objective, and you go back and you say, Okay, well, what we really want to do is raise the number of impressions for our brand, if that doesn't support your priority. For example, a trade magazine might have a very limited number of impressions, but it reaches a very specific target audience for you. Otherwise, you just say, hey, let's buy a superbowl commercial, because that'll have a lot of impressions. And then I accomplished my plan.
Isabel Peña Alfaro Right, right. So you know, it's really about the quality and the communication and also the engagement. Because you know, if you're engaging with an audience, you a lot of times you want to create a, you start a communication between both parties. So so it's more about the quality, then, like you said, then the quantity.
Chris Shigas So now you have these business priorities. And now you've outlined some communication objectives to help support that, now we get to the fun part. NASA tactics, right? Yeah, boy, it's just seems like this big giant bag of tricks that anybody can pull out and do whatever. How do you get your arms around? Oh, we got all these tactics we want to do, do they align with our objectives? We have a limited amount of budget. Do we want a lot of tactics? Do we want inexpensive tactics? Do we want one big expensive too? How do you even approach this?
Isabel Peña Alfaro Yeah, so this is the part where you can get really creative and part of being creative is how to use those dollars. And also how to use your creativity so that every piece of coverage that you get or every piece of PR that you get, you give it the legs that it deserves. So you know for example, if you get a story How are you going to get it across different channels so that you give that visibility, that extra visibility to that piece of coverage. So in the tactics, you put in all the different ways that you're going to do this, you get into the nitty gritty of how you will execute. And you really getting granular on everything, including, you know, what types of platforms you're going to be in, like you said, are you going to do trade magazines versus, you know, national media publications? Are you going to engage influencers? Are they are they going to be paid or not? You get into all of those things, and, and you just lay it all out?
Chris Shigas One thing I've noticed when I was working with an agency, when you're looking at tactics, it's easy to get in a rut, and you have the stable of clients. And sometimes you tend to put in tactics, because those are the tactics you're comfortable with. Right? And, and you you recommend that this client, oh, you should do these tactics? And then you get the next client? Oh, yeah, you should do these tasks. And I just curious, working with agencies and things like that now as a consultant, how do you get yourself out of that rut? To expand your scope of services, to really look at your bag of tricks and tactics and and how to make that really relevant to those objectives?
Isabel Peña Alfaro Yes, I agree with you completely, you can get into this rut of always putting in what you know, you will achieve, yeah. But, you know, it's kind of like in fitness. If you say, Okay, I'm good. My next goal is to do 10 push ups without stopping. But you know, that you can do 12 push ups, no problem. So then what's the fun of it, you know, you get to the gym, you do your 12 push ups, and you're done. And that's it. And so you're taking out the fun in the whole process. So what I would say to that is, be real with your, with your goals, because it's part of the fun that you that you that you're gonna have with your, you know, with your own plan. And
Chris Shigas I love that I love that idea of having fun with your own plan. And it's kind of like, yeah, you can have your, your stable block of tactics, the blocking and tackling and the media relations or whatever, but put in a little, something, a little cherry on top, a little sprinkle chocolate on it, something that's gonna make it plain five, might not be the center of your plan. But maybe something that is a pilot that you can experiment with have fun. And if it works, you just added a tactic to your toolkit. And yeah,
Isabel Peña Alfaro yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, really, it's about not letting your fears drive your goal setting. In other words, you know, not letting your limiting your failure, your fears of failure of not, you know, not accomplishing what you those limiting beliefs about what you're capable of achieving, drive your goal setting right?
Chris Shigas Now, tell me about this idea of annex. I'm not familiar with this word for this. So So give me a little bit about your thoughts about this, this part of your plan.
Isabel Peña Alfaro The annex is another part that is not necessarily it doesn't sound exciting, but it is very, it's so useful, because this is where you put all the extra detail. So you add in, for example, you add in a calendar, and you put in what you know, is coming up each month, and you might not have all the details for every month of the year, but you know that you know, your earning season. For example, if you have earnings in your company, you might have some industry events. So you can add that. And you can also add a list of reporters. And this you know, going back to the goal setting that we were talking about, you can add a list of those reporters that you want to start reaching out to or networks that you might not be in touch with that you want to start communicating with, you might have put all your ideas down in January, but by March, you forgot what what ideas you had in January. So the annex is super important because it it it is a a roadmap to to getting to your goal. And the annex is really where you put all your details. So it's gonna be really helpful as you go through the year.
Chris Shigas And that's wonderful because here's, here's the number one crime that happens with plans is you spend a month on this thing, you plan everything out, and then when you're done, you present it to your boss, you stick it in a drawer and you never look at it again. Right? Like that's a crime. This should be a living, breathing. breathing document. Right? How do you keep your plan alive throughout the year?
Isabel Peña Alfaro Yeah, the the key to the plan is printing it and referring back to it daily, and having it next to you on your workstation. And like you said, it's a it's a breathing document. So every day you're adding, adding things to it taking things away, and you do a whole refresh of it at least once a quarter. While it might not change drastically, you are looking at it through the lens of Okay, what needs to be adjusted, including the goals and what can we change to strengthen the whole plan, right.
Chris Shigas And you know, when I really love taking out a plan, after you do a giant initiative, when you do a big tactic and everyone's happy and you're patting yourself on the back, you don't want to lose momentum. That's the perfect time to pull out your plan and go Okay, what's next? Right?
Isabel Peña Alfaro Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, once you have the momentum, you want to keep going and you know, we've been talking about that goal setting and executing and just when you got that when is when you are so expect dreams and, and you know, those it's not just about you achieving that dream that you had or that goal, it's about getting your entire team behind that goal and together, reaching that and and you know, achieving what you want for you and your business.
Chris Shigas Wow, Isabelle, thank you so much for talking to us about planning today. I really appreciate it.
Isabel Peña Alfaro Thanks so much for having me. I had so much fun. Awesome.
Chris Shigas You can watch a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. I want to thank Isabel Peña Alfaro. Her website is IsabelPenaAlfaro.com. Do me a favor. When you're writing your 2021 plan, keep it focused on the priorities. But don't forget, sprinkle in some fun. If the plan is boring. The work will be boring. Make your plan shine, and be a PR superstar. Now go get 'em.
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello everyone and welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Budgets. A great plan for a giant corporation may not be a good plan for an upstart entrepreneur. We have to be realistic about our budgets. And when you work with a small business, an entrepreneur, or even a celebrity, anyone where a marketing budget is coming straight out of their pocket. I mean, like from a personal bank account. Every dollar has to work and you need immediate results. Our guest today on PR Wars has been driving results for entrepreneurs for decades. She launches new products, creates events, she's even a publicist to athletes, musicians and influencers. She's the owner of 3BG marketing solutions and the author of a new book called "Publicity on a Budget, Carmena Ayo-Davies. Carmena, so good to see you and welcome to PR Wars.
Carmena Ayo-Davies Thanks. Thank you for having me, Chris.
Chris Shigas Absolutely, I am so excited to get this book "Publicity on a Budget." There are so many people who want to engage in PR, on some level you have these giant corporate programs, but you have a lot of small businesses that want to make an impact. And as we look at what's going on, in our communities today, these small businesses need this more than ever, right?
Carmena Ayo-Davies Yes, they are.
Chris Shigas So so so what inspired you to write this book "Publicity on a Budget?"
Carmena Ayo-Davies COVID did because it was where you know, people open their business during these times, especially small business and pushing entrepreneurship, I'm big on entrepreneurship, and pushing that it's like, you know, people started reaching out to me, because they were desperate and wanting to know how they can work with our company and how we can help them, you know, get exposure. And when I gave my price, they couldn't afford it. But they loved everything that I can do and everything they seen me do, you know, in the market, but they could not afford it. And you know, I want to give back. And I want to be able to share the knowledge I've had an experience working with especially small businesses, and working in entertainment to help them get the exposure that they're needed, and to help them implement these different tactics and how to reach out to people and etc. To get this exposure that
Chris Shigas is much needed. That's wonderful, because there is a need in the community. So when you get approached all the time, people see you as a marketing expert. Yes. And they go, please help me I don't have a big budget. And sometimes what could be a great plan for a big company might not be the best plan for a small business because they just don't have the resources. So how do you approach that when you're dealing with minimal resources? How do you approach saying I can help you?
Carmena Ayo-Davies How do I approach say, I can help you now the trends and the tides have changed, you know, before you and i think you know, our our industry is changing before your whole thing could be driven by just being on a TV show, or and then your sales will go to the roof we all remember like the Oprah effect and being on these different things that helped. But as you know, everyone wants to be on those shows and etc. And it makes it harder and you may not get the same effects kind of from your, your smaller market Morning Show. You wouldn't get that same type of effect, but people be like, oh, I'll check it out. So but it's minimal. It's very small. You know, with PR and marketing, you know, people have to see you hear about you at least like 100 times for them for it to like actually stick right now with social media. I always tell people okay, when you come to me, you can't just do PR now you have to come with to me with the entire marketing budget. For us to do the social media marketing, that, you know, all the PR does, I think is just fanning the flame. It just made like, Oh, I remember seeing, Oh, I remember hearing, oh, that's the girl you're going I'm saying so it kind of marries each other. So you kind of just can't completely rely on just public relations and getting a write up or getting in on television anymore, you have to have these things that support it, because, unfortunately, not a lot. It's so many distractions. Now, not a lot of people are reading like they used to not a lot of people are watching television like they used to, people are always on their phone. So I always tell you, especially on a smallest scale, hey, maybe you should do your targeted ads on Facebook and Instagram, everybody's on Facebook and Instagram, do targeted ads, find who your demo is, and actually get an ad manager, we work with the ad manager on our team. That's really incredible. Like we had a small business, they invested about three grand, it was a shoe company and on the ad manager and get an ads and they got back 14,000 in that week. For small business, that's great. That's, you know, they made their money back and son. So I always say to you having these targeted ads. And I'm not saying to anyone, you just going it's a certain way, you have to set the ads up, it's a certain look alike audience you have to create with the email addresses that you collect. So things like that collecting email addresses, having your your constant contact, or MailChimp sending out like email marketing things before you remember, we send direct mail stuff into people's mailboxes, not people, I barely check my mail, because everything comes I get everything on paper left, I'm green majority of the time. So it's best to target people online and via emails, or we know they all go to these blog sites and etc, having ads that you know, that they will see on the black side actually don't video than creating content.
Chris Shigas So I guess it's so important when you have a limited budget, that all these pieces are kind of working together. So that makes sense that you'd want to see it holistically. Because if you had these different parts moving, then you're not really making your dollars work for you. I also like what you're saying, when you look at marketing is creating touch points with the consumer and, and maybe the consumer says, You know what, I don't know where I saw it or read it. But I've been hearing a lot of good things about this company. Right? Yeah. Now you're really building a reputation management, right? And the brand. Yeah, that's great. As you look at some of the things, I mean, obviously, there's this idea, hey, I really want to be the show or I want an article in The New York Times. But even if you get the New York Times, which is a great hit, but not everybody reads the new york times every day, right? Or even the ones that read it, they might not even see that story. So So there comes also a time of having to leverage those hits that you do get, right. Yeah, tell me a little bit about that.
Carmena Ayo-Davies I always say to people, I'm like, Okay, if you do, like, you know, the People Magazine, and the Vogue's and etc, when we come to entertainment. Yes, that's great that you have it, but what I tell my clients, all that does is it co signed you. That's it, it just makes it No, like makes people know, okay, it's the New York Times or Vogue or people is doing an article, someone that like a magazine or outlet that is respectable is doing something on you. It's basically now when people Google you and they see that comes up, it just gives you like that stamp of like, Oh, this is actually a good business, you know, it gives them it makes them more confident in working with you or going to check check it makes them feel more comfortable, you know, in working with you. So I always say that PR piece just gives you that official cosign, but nowadays people like buying into people, they like buying into a situation and they like to see so they were rather you know, see you're whether it's clothing, it's a product or whatever it is. don't like to see it on a Kylie Jenner or Chris. What's that called? Kim Kardashian, whatever her name. Before you know over New York Times, you know, like me, you tell me, my book is, you know, in the New York Times bestseller, oh my god, this
Chris Shigas credibility
Carmena Ayo-Davies was holding my book going into a private to chat, and that's it, you know why? Because when these girls like, like your things, it flies off the, you know, off the shelves, like, you know, and then you start getting these caught like following so these kids don't care about like, you know, the New York Times,
Chris Shigas yeah. Now you deal with a lot of celebrities, athletes, musicians, influencers? What do I need to know as a business owner or even at maybe as a PR person who wants to get more into publicity?
Carmena Ayo-Davies What do I need to know about working with these types of people, they want to be seen, and they want to be seen on social media, all these people want to be popular, they want to be, you know, I'm not saying all of them majority of that. So it's about like, raising their status. You know, you have to think what type of athlete you're dealing with, when you're dealing with football player, unless you're, you are a quarterback, or the star running back or whatever, you rally, you know, people don't really know. Yeah, so some of these guys, you know, these kids, you know, whether they're from the hood, or you know, middle class or whatever family, you know, this is you're making money that you've never made before, they want to shine, you know, so you kind of have to speak their language they want to go to like, so it's like more. So like, when I think when you're starting a PR company, you have to have a whole, like concierge side as well, where you're getting them to the tables at the best restaurants and you're getting them the, you know, to go right,
Chris Shigas giving them that kind of service, you're giving
Carmena Ayo-Davies them that type of service. So, you know, because they'll click to say, oh, you're not doing anything for me, like, dude, I just got you in Sports Illustrated, like, you know, like, Yeah, that's great, but they want to be seen, and how they want to be seen. It's the social effect. Mm hmm.
Chris Shigas Absolutely. You know, and it's almost like as, as a celebrity publicist, you have that concierge level, but I remember, you know, making sure Oh, do they have water at the for the interview, and then, you know, how they look over a carpet and you're trying to take care of all these little details? Yeah. At the same time, you're thinking about the publicity and the hits that are going to come from this publicity. And, and then you're thinking, sometimes you have to be part therapist, right? Like, you have to get them to the event. That's, it's not as easy. I mean, sometimes, you know, working in the corporate world. Now, if I have a CEO scheduled for a media interview, they show up, right, like
Carmena Ayo-Davies they've been partying all night. m&d 30% chance, it all goes by like that upbringing, or sometimes they're like the breadwinner of the entire family. It's like, I always say they've been the man their whole life, because they start these journeys since like, freakin elementary school. So they've always been like the golden tickets, so they don't care about anything. Like all they care about is that job that they do. So hey, he meant I had an athlete not gonna say any names. Yeah, I got him a show on me and my partner pitched him to EA and attainder him an actual show on EA. We were ready to go with production and everything and gave us I think was a six to eight episode show. Based on this athlete's life, we're going to be in Miami, then we're going to be filming it. And all of a sudden, he changed the schedule. And I'm like, haha, all right. We were supposed to start filming in August, they changed it to November. And they said, Oh, we'll be okay. We just have to push back filming. I'm like, Look, I'm gonna rock out with whatever you guys want to do. But that's not a good idea. I'm like, these boys get distracted very easily. And this is based out of him dating and a social life. And I don't think that like, Who knows if he's still gonna be single in November. He's excited. Now. Let's do it. Yeah, Chris didn't listen to me. It was like, No, no, no, we'll be okay. Come November, he stopped answering his phone. Hmm. Mind you. We had a whole production team setup. This is for a television show. This kid did not care. Like people's jobs on the line. You know, we pitched the show didn't care. He said, Well, I have a girlfriend now. So what's gonna happen? Like, is she gonna be on the show? Because I can't be on a show talking about I'm single. When I'm in love. This is like literally, what Two months later he's talking. And then I'm like, well, that's not what we pick. We didn't pick you having a girlfriend or it's Being about your family life, we pitch you being this successful bachelor leave living in Miami offseason working out and just living the life like flashy that doesn't go, he didn't care and my contact ended up losing his job.
Chris Shigas And that shows, especially for public relations professionals, it shows you when when you're dealing with a corporate brand, versus when a person is the brand. Yes. Right. And all of the things that go with that the emotions, and you brought back to me when when I was doing celebrity public relations and, and a time where I actually had the unusual opportunity to have to say no to Oprah. And I don't know if anybody's ever said no, bro, no Oprah before but I had to. And it was one of those things of working with the show. You're dealing because you're not just dealing with a brain, you're dealing with a person. And you have to say, Hey, we need good communication here. And I need to know what's going on. Because I can't have surprises on this end. Because we're dealing with a human being right? Yeah, I can see where on your side, you're dealing with a client, and they have personal preferences and issues and life goes on. And then on the other side, you have a show that's trying to do a product and an image and a brand and marrying those two can be tough.
Carmena Ayo-Davies Yes, very tough.
Chris Shigas Now you wonder one thing that surprised me Kareena. While I was doing the celebrity stuff, I realized I started getting some TMZ photographers on my phone, and realize that they don't just hang out at Jimmy choos waiting for celebrities. The celebrities call them to come out and filmed their client walking by right. That's not just happenstance. That kind of tickled me.
Carmena Ayo-Davies Like, Hey, I'm throwing to see that. And then you name drop, who's gonna be there you think you're gonna get and sometimes be like, man, like, Hey, listen, pence in New York City. As far as I remember, it was for a Range Rover, it's going to be like, so so so yeah, sure, just make sure I'll be there. Just make sure I have passes to like, you know, the Claire or whatever. And that's it, my job is done. And they're gonna take their picture, and it's gonna get on the blog.
Chris Shigas So going back to the book, when someone is reading your book, What's your goal? What are you hoping they really get out of it that they can take and use in their daily work? In
Carmena Ayo-Davies my book, I want to target upcoming publicists, like someone that's new, like, maybe you could be the person, like I said, where it's hard for you to find a job. And you kind of just want to freelance and reach out to people on your own. And now you don't know how to get these contacts. Because these databases that we use are expensive, they sure are about that, like those databases can run you like, you know, 5000 or more a year, um, the cheapest you could probably get is 2500. And that's considered
Chris Shigas anyone I pay 15,000 for my MEDIA list.
Carmena Ayo-Davies Exactly. You know, and so here is these databases. So now you're competing against someone like yourself, where every, all the contacts are right there, all we have to do is live on and be like, Okay, let me see who's there at you know, no one Oh, and get a contact where you if you're a new upcoming person, or you're this new business that you don't, you know, you don't have the money to pay the publicist, but you don't have the database, I kind of teach you how to, like, do it, like intern style, how to get the, the contacts, like, on the hustle and on the grind. And now with social media, it's like it's easier. And, you know, it's more easier to get some of these people that work at these magazines, because all you have to do is follow the magazine and see who the magazine follow. So I tell you, all these things are great to get these contacts, you know, so
Chris Shigas yeah, great. So let's just say you have a limited budget, you're you're following some of the steps in your book, and I get really interested, I think my market will react well to an influencer. If I'm engaging an influencer? What can I expect in return? I mean, what if I'm not giving you six figures? What's a reasonable expectation level of what I can do with an influencer? or How can I even leverage maybe even if I just was able to get it, like you said, a photograph of somebody carrying your book, right? But like, what, how do I turn that
Carmena Ayo-Davies you can do more with influences right now. So I think people have to get in, you know, I'm not gonna keep saying their names. I'm just gonna use them as hard. Get source, you know, to use a Kylie Jenner, Kim Kardashian, some of the times that asking for a million dollars a post, right? Trust me I know this because I have priced them. I think the least I'm Kylie came before all the craziness was like 351 time. So we know for our small business, even the mid size into your life saw one post, like
Chris Shigas I know a lot of celebrities, I mean, a minimum of $100,000 to come to a party, right? Exactly. Yeah,
Carmena Ayo-Davies I'll walk through. But now I'm liking the space of the micro influencer. So you don't have to go that big. I have a girl Her name is Mia Ray. She's in Detroit, she probably has about like 65,000 followers, right. And her budget is nowhere near 100,000 or whatever to post, right? You can probably get me to post for like 1500. And you can probably you know, a post. And for someone like her, I like her because she has a die hard call. She's created this business. She actually has a business herself. And she she's a single mom, she has two kids. And they saw her when she was in our apartment. They saw her when she was broken. I think her boyfriend had left her and she started her life over and she was very transparent. So these people support her now she's like, making a million dollars or more, you know, doing her business. So these people have supported her and went through this journey with her and some sharing the same stories. So like a Mia, if I get say, Chris, you say to me, hey, Carmen, Carmina, I have this product is for women, do you have any micro influence you can use? That's the first person I'm going to tell? Because guess what, when she puts it on her page, it's probably gonna miss out loud.
Chris Shigas Wow, that's interesting. So it's not necessarily how big the number is. It's how you can activate the followers and engage exactly engagement.
Carmena Ayo-Davies So when somebody tells me, did you hear the story about this girl, like one of those youtubers or DME social media like sensation, she had all these followers, and I guess a company paid her and or something. They said she couldn't even sell 20 shirts, right? Well, you don't even know if the followers have all, you know, no, no, she's been paid. Well, there's the or you don't know how high stupidity they've become where they're not connecting. where, you know, some people people just love, they hate, they love to hate, you kind of were just like, want to talk crap about them. So they follow them. So you don't know what the level of respect or engagement is with these followers. So you have to be careful when you see big numbers, it's not necessarily a great thing, unless they're like an entertainer or something legitly, you know, but for these little micro influencers, I have in recent, probably the past year or two, I've been seeing more movement with the micro influencers and small businesses being able to afford them and them seeing movements and actually getting things done with the micro influencers. So like Amelia, like every time I'm client, she put up a product for them. And she sold 50 of those products at $135 apiece. So that worked.
Chris Shigas Yeah, there you go. You get an ROI.
Carmena Ayo-Davies Yes, you get in your ROI. So that worked. So someone like her, I would say that's a good one. So now I've masked I wouldn't say mastered but I'm in a great space with the micro influences where you know, where a lot of like, when Kevin Hart's movies come out. There's a marketing company out in LA. They do a lot of marketing for like influencers. That's the new thing to post up like movies coming out. So I have a guy. His name is Marcus, he always calls on me. When he's done like releases. It could be like a TV show. I did on p Valley for him. I helped him with that. When it came out for stars. It's a new show that's on stars. So he called my cat. I'm looking for some micro influencers doesn't matter. 100,000 to 20,000, whatever. If they have good engagement, let me know this is my budget, can they post? So I do that, like when Kevin Hart had a couple of his movies come out. He did the same thing. 50 cents at his show on ABC. That came out he reached out to me saying hey, I'm looking for this, this this or whatever. We don't want to spend more than this. Who do you think we can get and I submit like their pages. And he goes and his people check out their engagement and he'll he'll come back to me and say, Hey, I like this one and not that one. And we go from there.
Chris Shigas So deep to wrap up. Do you have any kind of last words of advice for someone who's that they're they're an entrepreneur. They're trying to get going. They don't don't have a lot of money and they can't really afford to make a big Miss, right? Do you have any kind of last words of advice of where their mindset needs to be?
Carmena Ayo-Davies Don't be discouraged. And you don't necessarily even have to use, say popular influence as you start with people in your area. Start with someone that is known in your area that might have a little more following than the regular person in, you know, in your Charlotte, North Carolina, whatever, like, Hey, Chris Shigas is poppin in Charlotte, and he got it. I go to Chris. Hey, Chris. Like if I
Chris Shigas I don't know if I've ever been popping anywhere.
Unknown Speaker No.
Unknown Speaker I hear you
Carmena Ayo-Davies ever been who's never been approached to be a so called influencer? You say to Chris, you probably don't even have to call Chris. You just say, Hey, Chris, I'll send you some clothes for my boutique. Can you for a month, can you every week or whatever. Can you post once a week about my boutique and Christmas? Sure. You're sending me clothes?
Unknown Speaker Yeah, sure.
Carmena Ayo-Davies We'll do it. So let's start with where you are. Don't start shooting for the stars right away. Not that anything is wrong with that. But you know, just think I'll say don't get discouraged. Use what you have. You'll be so surprised to see the contacts you have in your own database. Just utilize those. Great
Chris Shigas carmena thank you so much for being on PR Wars today.
Carmena Ayo-Davies Thank you so much for having me, Chris.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new episode a PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. Be sure to say hi to Brad and me on PR Wars Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn pages and do me a favor. Before you put together your 2021 plan. Figure out who are the micro influencers in your industry, who's talking about the issues relevant to your business. Make this part of your plan, expand that old media list, build new relationships with your key influencers. Now go get 'em.
Holiday retail. It is a tough pitch to get your clients products under the Christmas tree. Our guest today on the PR Wars podcast worked a decade for the National Retail Federation. She even worked with the team that originally coined the term "Cyber Monday." Join us as PR Wars talks holiday public relations with Kathy Grannis Allen, Director of Media Relations at SalientMG.
A.I. generated show transcript:
Chris Shigas Hey PR Wars fans. I have some sad news today, PR Wars co-host Brad Grantham is mourning the loss of his father. His dad, Bill Grantham, passed away from COVID-19 this week. As we pass this 300,000 deaths in the US, it's more than just numbers. It's a devastating illness that is impacting too many families. You see, Brad's dad, Bill Grantham, lived in North Carolina but spent most of his life in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And in this world of inconsistency, Bill Grantham's legacy represents commitment. He was completely committed to God, to his wife, and to his family. Bill Grantham was 71 years old. So this Christmas, honor Bill Grantham by committing. Commit to something in your life that's important. We'll welcome back Brad to the show next week. Now, let's roll.
Show open: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey, everyone, welcome to PR wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Holiday retail. It is a tough pitch to get your clients products under the Christmas tree. Our guest today on PR wars worked a decade for the National Retail Federation. She even worked with the team that originally coined the term Cyber Monday. Huge now, she's the director of media relations for the marketing agency SalientMG. Kathy Grannis Allen, thank you for joining us on PR Wars today.
Kathy Allen Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Chris Shigas Here we are, it's the rush of holiday shopping season. And you have clients who, who are really trying to make this quarter work for them in this space in this holiday retail what's working in 2020?
Kathy Allen Man, that is the question, isn't it? You know, veteran PR professionals go into the situation, knowing the reporter there be the outlet, what works and what doesn't, you build up to this level as a PR professional, where you have a very good understanding of how to access a reporter how to research their beat, when to pitch them when not to how to evaluate the new cycle. But 2020 he hit has changed. Even all of that, for sure. For everyone, for every single pair professional, you know, whether you're you specialize in communications in general or, or if you are strictly PR media 2020 has changed everything. And I think this year, so far, what I've really noticed has worked, regardless of whether it's about the election, or COVID. Or if or if you happen to be in the space where Amazon, Facebook and tick tock play, what really works is a concise, well researched and well thought out and well timed pitch more so than ever before. Because if you're going to get a reply in your email, it's only going to come if it provides true true true value to that reporter
Chris Shigas right. So So you started off the year and you had planning and then mid year you changed your planning probably and that now you're executing. So So what's working what channels do you see I know different clients have different objectives. But but but if you look at it from a broad picture, which channels are really working in retail PR
Kathy Allen that's it that's a great question. And Funny enough, I think only in the last year or so have I become the Twitter retail PR person that I am today. Honestly, I I was always of the mindset that social media is great when it comes to interacting with reporters. But it was always a side gig. It was always just something that was there but and and I would use it to keep up with my friends right to keep up with the beat reporter if they were having a tough day or if a lot of them were piling on about a story or a trend I would jump in but these days It honestly has become a mechanism to see what media is saying and what they're saying about how people pitch them. Because sometimes it's not. It's not the most friendly, obviously, because they receive so many crazy pitches, but there's a lot of feedback about how to pitch them. There's questions about what they're looking for. So Twitter is one channel that has worked for me in terms of, of getting through. Exactly,
Chris Shigas yes, they do like Twitter. Yeah. And I guess, are you at the school where you're engaging with these reporters, even when you're not pitching them?
Kathy Allen Correct. Exactly. So there, there are more things, I've always believed that media relations is a two way street. it you know, you can expect to go to a reporter just with the, the idea that they're going to cover what you have available to them, you have to also be available to them when you have nothing to offer, except guidance, or a name or a suggestion for a source or a website they haven't seen. So getting in front of them with with ideas of who to go to who has great research, who has, you know, great contacts is just as important. And I've sent DMS to you know, CNN business reporters to protocol to, you know, LA Times you name it, just introducing myself saying, I'm here I'm working with such and such, it's very nice to meet you. Please let me know if there's anything I can ever do. And that is actually believe it or not, has worked worked very well for me. And in just having them come to me, again through Twitter or come to me even an email with a follow up question. Even if it has nothing to do with me or require
Chris Shigas media lists had been shrinking and shrinking, just the whole industry has been shrinking. And as you look for ways to expand your contact list, and stakeholders, obviously, one thing that's coming up is influencers. And you mentioned Tick tock, and you mentioned other kinds of things. And what role do you think influencers are playing today in your industry? And do you treat them the same as a media reporter? Or how do you work that?
Kathy Allen Well, from my standpoint, at least the influencers that I would rely on most, or that I am relying most at least may not have the million plus followers, you know, like your YouTube or Instagram stars, your tech stars, per se, but I I rely a lot on the analysts and the and those types of global influencers. You know, there's a research firm out there Forrester Research and I'm a very big fan of sushi relates to Karina kodali, she is been an influencer in the retail and e commerce and digital retail space for for as long as I can remember, that kind of influence to me matters a little bit more than somebody who would be getting paid by a brand to speak about it. That's not to say that the value of these influencer firms isn't real. Imagine social media was only born 10 years, 15 years ago, right? And the things that we've seen come from that just not even in the world of PR, just the world of marketing, and just that digital visibility is huge.
Chris Shigas I'm aging myself here. But my first Facebook campaign that I did, I had to use one of our interns, because when if you remember when Facebook started, you had to have a college email address in order to have an account. So my first campaign in Facebook, I had to enlist my intern so that we could even create a site. Yeah,
Kathy Allen yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was. I was at the National Retail Federation. For a year Cyber Monday was coined and invented and created. I worked with the the team that actually coined that phrase, and the idea of having somebody come in. And you know, they were in their early 20s. They came in twice a week to help us manage Twitter, and social media, because it was so new, and it was burgeoning. But we weren't accustomed to this idea of what of our was gonna grow or what it was, but to be there at the beginning of it was incredible.
Chris Shigas Now, there's lots of ways to reach out to a reporter you mentioned kind of slipping into some of these DMS on Twitter, right? But But there's also okay, traditionally, you send out a press release and you blast it out other ways. There's a what you you send a pitch, right, maybe it's just a couple of lines. And here's an idea. There's we used to do these old school press kits where you mail them to reporters, and I'm thinking in retail, maybe even giving that if the product isn't expensive. You could send some stuff to a newsroom. What's your go to what's what's working for you this year?
Kathy Allen Oh, let's see. Well, yeah, clearly, email is the easy Yes, but I have we, as all of us we've struggled with getting that reply right? So, I have found that even if I get, let's say, five replies a week, for four, again, this is proactive. This is just proactive PR, right? This wouldn't be necessarily a breaking news story. I, one of the one of the things that also works for me is, believe it or not going to somebody I might know at that outlet, whether it's a Fast Company, or if it's Reuters, and saying, Hey, I realized this isn't your beat. This isn't your stick. But we've worked together for X number of yours. Do you happen to know the person who's covering supply chain, or the person who would be covering digital online or you know, online retail, it's all the same, that kind of ask for advice method has actually worked for me a couple times, I went to a fortune reporter, I was trying to get in front of one of their lead diversity inclusion reporters, she she runs this awesome newsletter and this, this great DNI beat, but I don't really know the retail reporter. And I asked him for, for an introduction. And he had no problem with that introduction, because I've known him for so long. And we had such a great relationship that he knew that I in No, no way was going to spam this reporter or harasser or send a send an unnecessary email. That is I've used that in many beats at dozens and dozens of outlets. And it's actually worked quite well for me.
Chris Shigas Interesting. Now, one thing, I'm interested in you, you work with a full service marketing agency, and you lead the media relations portion of that. So you may be more than a lot of people in a media relations agency, really learn how to integrate your media relations with the overall marketing mix. Can you talk a little bit about that, and kind of how you approach that and when media relations is one piece of that marketing plan?
Kathy Allen Yeah, that's a that's that's a good point. Because back, I don't know how long, there was a time where you would simply leave the marketing side of the house to the marketing side of the house, and you would have the PR side of the house or the PR side of the house. But these days, because everything is so integrated, and so digital, there is no such thing as just hitting send on a press release. Nor is there such thing as just scheduling a tweet, nor is there such thing as just a direct mailer, right, you know, the direct mail or has a QR code that sends you to a website that has to be updated, that you know, should direct people and media to the right place. So I, I've really benefited and learned more about marketing and integrated communications than ever before, with this role with where, you know, it's salient, because my team of marketing experts are really, you know, they are making back end changes for our clients that I'd never heard of, or knew of. And not to say that I want to become a marketing expert in any fashion. You know, I love what I do, but I've learned so much from them. And it's been important for me to stay up to date with their trends, just as it is for them to understand what I'm battling with PR and media, and especially in this landscape when they say and they asked me a question about a press release that came up while I wasn't on a call. They know, my messaging enough to know, you know, sometimes the answer isn't just a press release most of time. It's not, you know, sometimes it's just a targeted call or targeted email. And it's it's been, it's been really beneficial for all of us to to be a part but yeah, that handling that media relations alone is actually not really I'm not really alone there. There is a you know, a nice team effort.
Chris Shigas So you you burn up messaging, and and sometimes a marketing message looks a little different than a media relations message. And which looks a little different than a social media message. But But tell me about kind of your approach to messaging and what you're looking for when you're helping a client.
Kathy Allen I'm really glad you you asked that literally just the other day, we were working with a client who was drafting a press release, there were two paragraphs that read like a marketing brochure. Mm hmm. And, you know, and in the comments and and through some edits, we had to remind them, this wasn't newsy that this was salesy. This was promotional.
Chris Shigas Yeah. Like an advertisement.
Kathy Allen Yes. And I find that I'm having to do that a lot more with communication teams that do focus more on the marketing side, right or if our point of contact is a vice president of marketing, so instead of them having a PR expert on hand, you know they'll will as their agency of record obviously, it clearly we work with them and help them but a lot of the materials when you break it down, you know when you try to put them through the PR lens. It is Very easy to spot that promotional language. So I, you know, I mostly, and honestly, what I ended up doing was I ended up just putting quotation marks around one of those paragraphs because it read like a quote, it couldn't, you know, it was also the quote from the chief marketing officer,
Chris Shigas right. And that is where you can get a lot of the opinionated stuff in. And instead, the one thing I hate throw away quotes, I hate the quotes of we're thrilled to be a part of this, whatever, you know, I like it. Let's make these quotes work a little bit. And if you have to put in some marketing language, yeah, let's use this quote.
Kathy Allen Right, yeah, and especially the more provocative you can be in it right now, the better, right, you know, you can certainly thank your partners, you can say it's a match made in heaven, etc. But by literally saying that there are millions of people out there just waiting to tackle your cyber platform in erupt with fraud is better left as a sentence, if you can back it up obvious or as a quote, then then it's been his press release. And then obviously, then there's the next level of messaging, which is your CEO messaging, which I also work on every day, whether it's for prepping for an interview, or honestly, if they are themselves, just trying to wrap their head around a launch, you know, we want to put them in the right, the right frame of mind, let's say it is a marketing launch. But they need materials that are going to be something that they would speak whether they speak on the record or whether they speak speak to a partner, or virtual coffee, you know, with a reporter, there's there's definitely that level that difference. And it's been important to keep the promotional side promotional on the newsy side newsy. Well,
Chris Shigas you have about a couple of weeks left in this holiday shopping season, and then you're going to wrap up, you're going to do some measurement, and then you're going to do some reporting back. Can Can you foresee maybe how 2020 how what's happened this year is going to change for your plans next year for your clients, how they're gonna shift?
Kathy Allen Right? Well, you know, like you said that any playbook we may have had, in early 2020, was thrown out the window, we've had to learn how to become a referenceable. And newsy. When it is on it is virtually impossible. So with that, what we've found ourselves doing And to your point, as we are currently making our year, yearly rap reports for clients, right. And actually, the metrics aren't as far off as I think we would have had in a normal year. But let's say even Chris, even without this pandemic, it was still an election year. Right? So. So regardless, we were still looking at a difficult year ahead, even if COVID had not spread the way it had. And it hadn't become this this huge tragedy. And taking over the news, an election itself takes up editor's budget space for eight, nine months, regardless. So I think, when we do speak to our clients, we always remind them about expectations. And that is, that is, that is the one thing, yes, I don't ever want to be the PR person that says that I'm making an excuse for why I didn't get coverage. It's not my job to explain my life away. But it is my job to make sure that they understand the absolute realistic, the realistic atmosphere, you know, the the environment that we're all in. And that's going to be the only way we succeed together is if they understand the definition of news, and not news, saying, hey, you should cover my client, because they're interesting, is it? It's a puff piece, right? It's not going to work. Right. But but saying, you should meet my client, they're the only black CEO in this space. They were the first to market with this product. He's you know, raised $43 million since inception. And by the way, the numbers he's seeing with his product, you know, are up to 543%. That's the new story. It's not meet my meet this client. He's news where they have
Chris Shigas some of those those specifics, you know, yeah, you have $1 figure, you have numbers, you have some specific information, you get the reporter and it's not just a piece of marketing fluff. Yeah,
Kathy Allen exactly. Yeah. And then there's you and there's year over year and there's change and there's, there's stuff that goes into it that makes the reporter at least reply back and say, Wow, that's great. Can we connect next week, or I loaded up for the next three weeks can remind me that I want to connect with you and you know, next month, and trust me, I'm writing that down.
Chris Shigas A big part of my plan so far has always been to do decide briefings and to take when when you're doing something like you just mentioned, pitching as a CEO Bringing them on a media tour where they can shake hands and they could look someone in the eye and a reporter can get a briefing. And that was kind of taken away from us, right? We can't do that and done a little bit on zoom and things like that to do reporter briefings. Have you found that the reporters have been more willing to to just meet? Or is it hasn't been tough,
Kathy Allen really tough, really tough? The way the way our firm works, you know, we actually only work by referral only. So we don't respond to RFPs. And then the clients that you know, we take on because
Chris Shigas I've never had to write another RFP again, it would be too soon.
Kathy Allen I know, trust me, um, it's great. But you know, with that, I say that because our level of trust and commitment to our clients is hands down, explicitly different than a lot of other firms, you will find, right, like we are into, you're intimately involved in the success of these individuals, because we also work with minority and underrepresented executives, specifically, to help them find their voice in the market. I feel and I know in my heart is a good pitch. And I know is is a good story idea I've offered for these virtual coffees or I've offered for a 510 minute introduction has been very, very challenging, very challenging to get through, you know, again, I'll get the reply from a Fast Company. I'll get the reply from you know, a Mashable, it's on that, you know, the consumer side?
Chris Shigas Absolutely. Well, it takes tenacity, takes persistence. Last question. If there's a young person graduating college, maybe with a degree in PR, and they come to you, and they say, you know, what, what kind of skill sets? Do I need to be where you are and to be successful in this industry? What would you tell them?
Kathy Allen Well, I think they have, you have to like people. I'm not saying you have to be an extrovert, right. But you have to be able to meet in the middle when it comes to emotional development, right? If you're pitching a reporter who is bubbly, or who is not bubbly, you have to be able to meet them in the middle. And you have to enjoy that and you have to sound like you'd like it. So that's why I think liking people is a big part of it. That's maybe maybe a little bit like in the personal development. But you also to your point, tenacity is a great is a great point, because you can't give up after the first pitch. But you also can't spam them, right? So you have to find a balance. And it does it has to be thorough research with your pitch like you have to, you have to get in bed with your pitch. You have to you have to marry your pitch and figure out if it is going to work the way you want it to and don't waste reporters time zone never they'll never reply.
Chris Shigas Okay, great. Well, Kathy, thank you so much for joining us on PR Wars today.
Kathy Allen Thank you so much for having me. That was a lot of fun.
Chris Shigas All right, great. You can listen to a new PR wars podcast every Sunday night at 8pm. I want to thank Kathy Grannis Allen, Director of media relations for SalientMG and do me a favor. Commit to your loved ones this holiday season. The year has taken a toll on everyone. And when you return to work, commit to this profession that we love. Use communication to lift people. Commit your skills to make 2021 better than ever. Now, go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Internal communication skills
Dec 07, 2020
Internal communications is a specialty of corporate comms. If you have an agency background, you might not have a lot of exposure here. Maybe, you never want to pick up a phone and call a reporter again. So you're thinking, hey, maybe internal comms is right for me. Well, let's find out. On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk with Senior Director of Communications at Syneos Health, Khaner Walker.
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Internal communications. It's a specialty of corporate comms. And if you have an agency background, you might not have a lot of exposure here. Well, maybe you never want to pick up a phone and call a reporter again. So you're thinking, hey, maybe internal comms is right for me. Well, let's find out. Today co-host and fellow communications shaman, Brad Grantham, and I learned what it takes to move from external to internal communications. Now, you may have heard today's guests on a PR Wars Episode, tip of the spear. He's the former Director of Global Internal Communications at Lenovo. And he's now Senior Director of Communications at Syneos Health. And he is a friend of the program. Khaner Walker. Hey Khaner, thanks for joining us. And welcome back.
Khaner Walker Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Brad, glad to be here.
Chris Shigas Today, we're talking about internal communications, one of the things that's so interesting about internal is a lot of people in public relations don't really understand it very well, because, you know, if you start off in an agency background, you probably have a lot of external experience, you have Media Relations experience, and then you come on to the corporate side. And it's kind of like a new world, isn't it?
Khaner Walker Now, it's very, it's so so true, Chris, and even just as someone who left your team, you know, working at the agency together, it and I would say it was wholly you know, 100% immersed in external relations to going 200% internally focused for several years. It was it was a shift, it's a huge shift. And it was the rules were still the same, right. But the the venue, the steps in the processes were entirely different.
Chris Shigas So when you look at communicating to an employee, versus what you were used to at the agency, whether it was communicating with media or external stakeholders, consumers, how do you begin, how do you start your approach? their approach really doesn't?
Khaner Walker It's still the same, right? It still is, we're still building the context. And we're still going somewhere with our overall communication strategy, right? The goals are just entirely different, right? So the methods and the mechanisms, saying where we're going might be new, as opposed to you know, going left with external comms, we might go right with internal right. And, and some of some of those are just built around. What are the goals of the organization is its agility is it's simple. Retention matters is its transformation, right? All these things are things that companies think about, on some level, we're gonna have to digest them all into a coherent communications campaign. And these are much more different than talking about, you know, company stock price, the number of units, we're going to sell public affairs referendum, and all those sorts of things. Right.
Brad Grantham You had mentioned previously, it's something that I thought was very interesting. And that was being able to put a human face or touch on internal communications, which we can't externally always do. But it's important and critical for internal communications. Walk us through that thought process and what has worked for you and your teams utilizing that mindset?
Khaner Walker Sure. I think what I always thought of, you know, if we were to embody our team, what would what would that persona be? And our our approach was a little bit quirky, but really helpful. Right? And, and, you know, because we wanted to embody a little bit of playfulness, a little bit of engagement, right? We didn't want to be just kind of straightforward. q2, earnings were announced today. ptti was up 7% year over, you know, that sort of thing. You know, we want it to like, We're not saying that those types of communications don't have a purpose or, or even that they discontinued, right? They still took place, but it was okay. What are other ways that we can humanize that same piece of information in a way that really relates to employees, and so it was as simple as coming up with the two minute we call them coffee breaks. It was you know, either myself or team member, you know, drinking coffee inside our cafeteria lounge, and having a two minute video conversation to employees with What does PGI mean? What does 51% of share of a joint venture with Fujitsu? What does that mean? Right? Really kind of breaking some of the things down? And just having kind of a common approach to them? It repeated. That's just one. That's one tactic. That's one example. Right? It's repeating that mindset throughout. So really, how do we humanize?
Chris Shigas How do we engage? How do we can take and contextualize all this? for employees all over the world, you probably have a lot of goals and objectives with internal comms and education's one of them. But I think, perhaps as a key message, you really want them to feel like they're part of the company. They're part of the strategy, right? One of the difficult things is you have a lot of audiences, even if they're employees, right? You have executives, and especially working for a global, large global company like Lenovo, you have people with email addresses, and then you have maybe factory workers who do not have email addresses. How do you handle your internal comms to make all these different audiences feel like they're part of one company?
Khaner Walker That's a great question, Chris. And maybe it's something we can touch on later, too. But really, it sounds commonplace. And but it is digital transformation. It is thinking about how what are some new platforms that we can use, right? Nowadays, everyone has, you know, a smartphone, how can we build an app, and not only just build an app, but one that employees on the assembly line can't really readily read a story, right? So how do we get to them another way by what we're doing right? Now? Let's have a five minute you know, 1525 minute podcast, it's daily, it's weekly, it's whatever, right? But how do we enable the businesses and the groups and the teams to really be able to reach those different types of employees. And so it was really thinking about the types of content, the types of platform and the programs that would reinforce each of these pieces of content, because it's one thing to have an app, it's one thing to have the ability to do podcasts, but we really need to help the comms teams that were within our supply chain team, build their podcast strategy strategies, right? Because as you guys know, there, there are lots of types of podcasts. There's some Daily News podcasts, there are evergreen podcasts that go into a topic, you know, dot dot, dot, what's right for you guys? How do we build those and, you know, repeat those different types of things throughout the company?
Brad Grantham In any type of communications plan that you have, you've got to get buy in. So, you know, I think with internal comms, obviously, the employees are your number one priority, but you've got to get buy in from the business unit heads to make sure you know, you're effectively communicating what needs to be communicated downstream to the employees. But what do you go back to those business unit leads as your metrics that you have to achieve? For that bu is, what are the what are those metrics look like in theory?
Khaner Walker Sure. So one of the things I spent a while working on at Lenovo was an employee engagement score, right? What's a real time 24 seven metric that you could see on a dashboard that basically was the true up what we thought of our efforts, and some of it was, it was never apples to oranges, but it might have been red apple to green apple to gold apple, right? So we're at least kind of comparing everything that was the same, and that that sameness was an average of employee engagement. So if we know 1500, people are reading an internet article, that's a certain percentage of the company right? Now, where that number starts doesn't really matter. We want the upwards arrow, right? That's what we're really focused on. Same thing with app, right? If we know that 20,000 people have downloaded the app, and half of those are engaging with podcasts videos, what have you on the app, that gives us another engagement number. So we're able to really kind of do an average of averages here. And looking at Okay, over time, what's the average engagement with the internet? And not just the internet, but are the parts of the internet that we control? What's our gauge, with email, big, big shift, moving from Microsoft Outlook to an email, CRM provider, huge shift, a lot of work, it's expensive to half a penny to unemploy ie, it adds up when it's 60,000 employees times, you know, 12 emails a week, right? You know, that sort of mentality. So it has to be something that we're committed to and again, there's a strategy behind it. Well, we what I did in the team, we basically looked at Okay, what are the columns platforms that we control that we can get an average engagement score out of writes of 60% here 30% there, you know, dot dot dot. And then let's merge these together with other kind of qualitative scores. What are what's our x score that the HR, you know, surveys telling us? What is our what our Glassdoor scores, and you know, kind of let's put these all together into a score. You can see the parts in blue over here are the columns owned ones, the parts and you know, gold over here, hrs, and this is socials and whatever, right? But this one figure here in the middle is kind of the true up of all of them.
Chris Shigas For someone who's in an agency, and they think they might want to work in internal comms. I think sometimes I can spot them, you know, they're the ones who care about the agency culture. They're the ones who love creating the events and and, and things like that for the employees and really care about the spirit of the employees. What do you see as an essential skill working in media relations, and but thinks they want to make that transition over to internal comms?
Khaner Walker Well, Chris, I'm gonna flip it here for a little bit, I'll come back and answer you. But as you know, as Darth Vader once told Obi Wan, now I'm the master. So, so that makes you my Obi Wan, though, which is good. But your nickname for me was Connor big hit Walker.
Chris Shigas Right? That's right, because of big hits and media relations.
Khaner Walker That's right. That's right. We had we had all the tier ones at my speed dial, you know, you name it. I was there. So what what did you think when you learned that I was going to internal comms? Did you think that this made it whether this was a fit,
Chris Shigas I do think that it was a good fit for you. Now you weren't necessarily the agency, rah, rah guy, right? Because you were engaged in your clients, you were engaged in your work, but I knew that your approach to communications was very pragmatic. It was very process oriented. And I did feel like you would be able to succeed, probably more in a leadership role, rather than a junior role. Not perhaps you weren't organizing the agency Christmas parties.
Khaner Walker So to answer your question, to me, it was enthusiasm, right? If you're enthusiastic about your clients, that's going to carry over right, because inside internal communications, there are a lot of different types of clients. There are clients within HR, there are clients within finance there and clients within the business groups, right. And I think that the agency model actually replicates I always viewed my team at Lenovo as an agency. Right? Right, we were an agency that supported a ton of corporate functions. And within those corporate functions, there were other larger team, the cybersecurity team was one of the more important teams that were really focused on, for reasons we've talked about in the previous episode. So I think it was just having that enthusiasm for communications really translated well, because I was always enthusiastic and passionate about my clients in the agency days. And even the ones where I really disagreed with their point of view. I was always enthusiastic about the work. Right. and and the the work itself, really, that challenge it. That's what drove my enthusiasm. And, and I think that that is a key trait that I look for, right when hiring people is are you enthusiastic for communications? Or is this just kind of not just a job? But you know, is this? Is this something that you're not? For
Chris Shigas one common thread, there was a desire to push boundaries, you did want to push the envelope with your clients at work. And I guess that would translate over to internal comms where it would seems like it would be so easy just to fall back on doing things the way we've always done them. Or let's try something new
Khaner Walker 100%. And I think that's a bit that's been a big part of the digital push as well. Nobody said to build a metric, nobody said to kind of do all these things. But it was, you know, that was just a drive just to do something new and and show more value because I think even call it a problem, right? But you know, showing value that an agency drives from a PR point of view is just too big of a problem, you know, internally as well,
Brad Grantham right? As as you go to hire people in the future. So let's say you do take over at some point, global internal external comes somewhere else or that's added to your current role at sitios. What are the three things that you're looking for? And that hire specifically for internal comms, whether it's junior senior that crosses both lines? What are those three things?
Khaner Walker I will bring it back to the enthusiasm I think you have to be enthusiastic about internal communications. anonomys asking about the practice but about communicating to the employees. Right. And I think that that if that comes through, then that that energy is going to drive other people's energy, right. And so I think that that, and that translate direct, that translates directly into the second thing that I'm looking for, which is digital first mindset. This is gonna sound trite, but I want that energy to go from the comms piece that you're reading, to Instagram to LinkedIn, to.dot.to, Glassdoor, all those things, I think internal communication is just going to be viewed as the owner of a lot of these things that might, you know, currently sit under social might sit under, even external at some places. So I think having that digital first mindset is, you know, how do we start from email and wind up on a positive review at Glassdoor?
Brad Grantham What's the third?
Khaner Walker What is the third? Um, it's this might be just Twitter has taking over the world. And, and also with Chris, looking at me still with the Greek god, look, it is communicating concisely. It really is, you know, 140 characters or less. I mean, I know, that's no longer the tweet counts of don't add me. But it is that it is that mindset, and I always hate when people say don't add me, but I just said it. He just didn't. Yeah, so you can't add me it's con underscore 81. So hashtag,
Brad Grantham hashtag Come at me, bro.
Khaner Walker Yeah, exactly. So But no, it really is. I think it because, and the reason I say that is, I think this is something that you guys spotted. Well, before I did, which was people are cutting through the fluff. And you see that in our politics nowadays, too. And in everything, right, so I think I think you really have to be not just a to b in the writing, but explaining quickly, why a to b, right. And I in a way that's that's authentic.
Brad Grantham Last question for you. What is your biggest pet peeve with internal comms?
Chris Shigas How you gonna end this on your biggest pet peeve? Hey, man, he
Brad Grantham gave us he gave us can we
Chris Shigas be hopeful that Wait, wait, what internal comms looks like for the future. Okay, how it's gonna save the world.
Brad Grantham Okay, I'm so sorry. Let me rephrase that question. Zeus looks down upon us.
Chris Shigas So Connor, as we look forward to the future of internal communications, how do you feel the role of internal communicators will evolve and advance with digitalization?
Khaner Walker I think they're gonna have to be digital evangelist inside of a company, right? I think they're going to have to have a much more nuanced understanding of things happening within PeopleSoft slash workday, whatever, people management systems, right? how those things happening over there, how things happening, what's, what is your company's view on it, and information security? And then how do we navigate that needle, right? Because we need to thread you know, all these things and kind of really tie them together. And then obviously, just continuing to be the be the evangelist. It's a model where I think we're all familiar with, but workplace reputation is a core driver of company's reputations nowadays, and I think that's going to, if it's not already, it's going to sit squarely underneath internal comms departments, right? Because that story, the workplace reputation story has to start internally, first among employees, and then it has to be brought out externally. So so the internal comms teams that are really going to survive and thrive, are going to understand how to take it from inside, bring it externally, and, and programs and strategies that really make sense. You know, I agree,
Chris Shigas as, as an external communicator, I believe your employees are brand ambassadors for your company, and what do they say about your company can be just as important as what the media says about your company?
Khaner Walker Yes. And and it's, it's one of those things where you have to be willing just to say, look, we can't help you with that org announcement, we have to go shoot a video with 20 employees, that's about their story at this company, right? Because we want to build an evergreen campaign that does XYZ, right. And that's just has to be more and more of the focus of internal slash employee engagement teams everywhere, which is, you know, let's, let's have us figure out how to put the systems in place that makes some of these other tasks a little bit more routine makes it easier for them to do that. And then let's go let's do the big content programs that we want to do. And they're they're just the same as external comms. They're just at a different scale. That's great insight. Hey, on behalf of the entire PR wars team, whoo.
Chris Shigas I appreciate joining us
Khaner Walker This has been a delight. So thank you so much, guys. Welcome. I'm happy to come back anytime.
Chris Shigas Thanks. You can listen to a new episode a PR wars every Sunday night at 8pm eastern. Be sure to talk to Brad and me on PR wars Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn and do me a favor. Are you still enthusiastic about communication? Don't let the naysayers bring your plans to a crawl. Push new boundaries and make comms fun again. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Freelance public relations
Nov 30, 2020
The life of a freelancer. Is it right for you? On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk with Sarah Shkargi, who runs TNS Media and Communications about how to win at freelance public relations in 2020.
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello everyone. Thanks for listening to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Somewhere between working within a PR agency and owning your own agency… lives the freelancer. Now, the freelance skill set, besides being a killer writer, is tenacity and fearlessness. They bring their personal expertise to each and every client. Well today on PR Wars, co-host and fellow communications paladin Brad Grantham and I speak to a freelancer, Sarah Shkargi, who runs TNS Media and Communications. Many of her customers are b2b agencies, as she provides them with expertise as a startup technology specialist, Sarah Shkargi, thanks for joining us on PR Wars today.
Sarah Shkargi Thank you for having me. Absolutely.
Chris Shigas Before we get into your tech background, you're a freelancer, and you freelance with other PR agencies and companies. So that's interesting. there's a lot of PR jobs out there, but you chose to do it on your own. Tell me about that decision?
Sarah Shkargi Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it was an interesting change of pace for myself coming from a pure agency background. Um, after about, you know, seven years in agencies, I decided that I found it a much more opportunity of larger opportunity to work with startups, and giving them a lot more flexibility on what they needed in PR. And so through that agency, that I left in my last one, I found my first client, and I was able to work with them for three years. And what it led me to was an understanding that a lot of companies, whether they're, you know, just coming out of startup stealth mode, or have been around for decades, are really looking to engage their PR communication strategy in a much more unique and nimble way. And that's what I was able to offer them.
Chris Shigas So I think the biggest fear someone's you know, right now is sitting in an agency wondering if they could do this on their own and, and their biggest fear is, am I gonna be able to get the new business? Am I gonna, you know, can I get myself out there enough? What got you over that step?
Sarah Shkargi Um, you know, I had a piece of advice once from from a dear friend from South Africa. So you'll have to forgive this reference, but it was essentially you eat the elephant one bite at a time, right? And basically, you have to let the right people know you're looking in you once you start opening your network. And as someone in PR, you're sort of already tuned in to your clients world, whether you know, you're focused in on b2b or b2c, you're in there your understanding? Who's the head of Communications at this company versus company, you know, have they sort of have big cut an agency already? Those types of little things that you know, just from working in on the inside, you take to the outside world, go to your LinkedIn, immediately go into your Twitter, try to find those clients, probably they've had a few years ago, see where they landed now? And do they have PR and start doing the outreach just like that?
Brad Grantham So 2020 has been an interesting year, both for agencies and for freelancers like yourself. This is a two part question number one, how has 2020 impacted you as a freelance, the freelance model? The second part of that question is, you know, have you seen a shift also this year to more companies or agencies outsourcing items to freelance support to save costs?
Sarah Shkargi Yeah, well, so let me let me do it sort of backwards. Let me let me answer that shift question for you. So yes, I've absolutely seen companies looking to figure out their costs, whether whether you use it through freelancers, I've seen companies, in fact, who have traditional agencies even go the freelancer route for special projects rather than engaging the agency to tack on extra, you know, piece of the budget for that month. So I definitely think that 2020 has created for everyone to look at our budgets and really see where can I trim that fat. And usually, we all know it, but PR is the first to go. And so I think that companies recognize if this year hasn't shown them this year has also shown how important brand awareness is to the survival of their company. Yet they need to have the budget to do so. So they recognize, I think, the importance of PR, but they need to see it at a different model. And I think for me, what I've seen is that PR traditionally, has only been done in one way. And so I think the freelancer model I've seen growing, at least around here in the North America market, is that people are really engaging companies for all sorts of projects, and they're really meshing all of their capabilities, whether it be marketing, social media writing, or traditional PR.
Brad Grantham So has your client base wavered at all this year, as it grown? Have you lost? Where does that stand? And have you taken on things this year that you may not have in the past?
Sarah Shkargi I would say that my client base, you know, I had a couple of clients, right? In the beginning when lockdowns happened, when COVID really hit that got nervous, right? And the CEOs were like, let's just let's bring everybody inside. Let's hold that cash. And so yeah, I had, I had some clients either cut back significantly on the budgets, or just completely call it quits than in there. But after lockdown came out, and I did see an interesting surge in both projects, as well as really young startups, due to some of the, like the networking that I've done in the past, where I've engaged VC marketers, so heads of marketing for big VC firms, and they're able to sort of sell my services to their portfolio. And in that sense, yeah, I've taken on a lot of projects this year that I probably wouldn't have been doing a couple of years ago, by helping either take companies out of stealth launch their first, you know, seed financing round. So smaller projects, but definitely, you know, financially beneficial for myself,
Chris Shigas when you look at the scope of abilities that people have in the agencies, is there something unique that would make you successful? as a freelancer?
Sarah Shkargi Yeah, absolutely. One, you have got to be a killer writer, you've just got to be able to whip out your writing relatively quickly. And if you can't do that, um, find some writers who have a good price market and can do that for you. That's first and foremost. Secondly, as I think that if you are going into the freelance world, I would recommend, you know, getting a few years inside the agency under your belt, because I really think what can sell a freelancer and what makes them that really interesting opportunity for a company is that they bring with them that those years of expertise. I think that it's important to sort of have that, you know, that dedication behind you and your skill and understanding
Brad Grantham a tech standpoint, startup standpoint, this year, how have you had to adjust your tactics and securing coverage or your strategy to secure coverage as opposed to before? What have you had to do differently this year? That has worked for you?
Sarah Shkargi Yeah, well, I mean, oh, god 2020 has just been like crazy for the media. And I and I'm sure that you guys have been following this, you know, whether it's full on media outlets that are just closing their doors, or big time, reporters are now moving to substack and doing newsletters. For me, what I've seen that's been the most helpful, has just been obsessively following my top reporters for every single one of my clients on Twitter, reading their subset, reading their newsletters, really trying to understand where they're taking their own beats, because what's really changing in the landscape is it is much less about, you know, writing the fact that you raise $30 million for series C and much more about how your company impacts the human race, the world in which we live in, right, what are these bigger topics and that's really the big change that I'm seeing. And so it's been critical for me to make sure that I just keep up to date with what these writers are doing and what's really interesting them what's making them excited.
Brad Grantham My pitch standpoint. Have you had to adjust anything this year? So in other words, in the past, you may have done two paragraphs, three paragraphs, but to cut through the clutter your gift, you're doing a sentence pitch or you're going into DMS What have you had to adjust if anything?
Sarah Shkargi Yeah, listen, I I cut things short. I get straight to the point. I think if you can Get to your point within the first three sentences of your pitch, then it's done and dusted. I mean, they're not going to have the time these guys are writing eight articles a day, 500 words a piece, they don't have time to read a story in your email. So it's kind of like if you can't get their attention within the first few seconds of them opening that email, even your you know, subject line has got to be really exciting, then they're done, they're out, they're not going to pay attention to you. And I will say this always send a follow up, people hate to do follow ups follow up, because people just get so many emails, and sometimes they will miss a really great story purely because you didn't want to bother them and follow up. So
Chris Shigas there's a lot of noise out there. And a lot, a lot of people are giving up on media relations, even with all the news cycles, how they are. One thing I found is that the trade publications or specific beat writers are kinda starving for some news, because a lot of companies just aren't engaging. Are you finding that in tech?
Sarah Shkargi Yeah, you know, I think for me, I've always told all the clients I've ever worked with, I really view PR, kind of if you think about it in pyramid, and that bottom level, that foundation of anyone's communication strategy has got to be their voice to the trades, because this is where I think that not only bring your legitimacy, but where those writers are also going to move from those trade magazines to, you know, a more general pub, and then all the way up to business. So I think it's important, what I say, are they starving for coverage for news out there? Yeah, I absolutely do think that they're starving for that. And I would say that they're, you know, they're kind of earning, right, they're not getting the eyeballs that they once did. But with that, I do think that it is a big opening, they're not going to be as sexy for your client, when you present them with a trade, if you will. But I do think that it is a foundation for any client's PR strategy to make sure that they are, you know, really taking the time to invest in their true reporters, and give them that time to speak with them regularly given those interviews, make them feel just as important as the guys at the New York Times and Wall Street Journal.
Chris Shigas Sarah, as you look at your future, and we had a CEO of an agency on a few weeks ago, and he was talking about how to start your own agency. And he made a distinction between starting as a freelancer and being an actual agency. So So at some point in your career and your success, you're kind of having to make that decision. Am I an agency? Or am I a freelancer, right? How many people Am I going to hire? I'm not going to take on more accounts than I can do myself and grow? Or I like it where I am? And what goes into that decision for you?
Sarah Shkargi Oh, that's a great question. It's actually one that I have been ruminating on for quite some time, you know, do I take this to that next level? Because, you know, whether it's pure convenience, it's work life balance, the freelance model has been extremely beneficial for me. For the past few years that I've been at it, I will say that, yeah, you come to that point in your life where you're like, Okay, I can continue down doing the same stuff all the time with my three, four or five clients, Max. But you know, there's only so many hours in the day, I think, you know, it, I guess it just begs the question of what you want to do career wise, do you want to move away from the actual execution of PR, to the managing of PR, right, to really be the head honcho in the room that clients are excited to hear from but aren't actually in that day to day world with? And there's a lot of factors that play into that decision. First, though, I would say is, do you have a steady amount of clients for a regular basis, if you can do that, if you can sustain, you know, your, your limit of clients, then you know, then make that consideration about ramping it up and bringing someone on to help you out. But you do have to, I think the changeover from freelance to agency is going to be about quality control. So you really have to play that game. Well,
Chris Shigas gotta be some stress to write because right now, you're worried about your own payroll, let alone the payroll of other people and their families that depend on you and all that, right.
Sarah Shkargi Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've always thought about that even even inside of an agency, sometimes I would say to myself, thank God, I'm not the boss.
Brad Grantham And not just payroll, benefits and all the HR stuff and everything else and the laws change so much seems like every six months from a labor perspective, you know, just trying to keep track of that almost seems like a full time job, Sarah, why is you've kind of alluded to the best part of your job, which is the work life balance that you've created. What's the worst part?
Sarah Shkargi What's the worst part? Um, I would say that the worst part sometimes of being a freelancer is the lack of camaraderie of not having that big group of other people who are in the business with you who can, you know, laments with you about your clients crazy things or the antics. I also think it's kind of hard. When you're a freelancer, you get really, in your own world. And so you don't have that ability to bounce the balls off of the walls with friends, you know. So my biggest piece of advice for anyone who is going into the freelance world is make sure that you are connected with other people in PR, and put meetings on your calendar regularly to talk to those people just about PR, you know, you have to continue to develop your career, your profession, even though you're doing work everyday for your clients. It's that learning from others, that is probably the biggest thing you miss.
Brad Grantham Do I hear a child in the background? Um, yeah,
Sarah Shkargi it's also my work life balance.
Brad Grantham Hey, we're all we're all living it right now. I mean, whether you've got teenagers like, Chris, you've got little ones like me or yourself, Sarah, we're all living the dream.
Chris Shigas Sarah, last question for me. And as we look into 2021 now, and it's hard to tell what kind of budgets your clients are going to have companies are going to have? Are you anticipating needing to change some of your scope of services?
Sarah Shkargi I do, I do think that I'm going to have to embrace alternative areas within PR, digital marketing. You know, I think that social media is becoming even more important, as we continue to go forward, even to the b2b technology vendors out there. Social media is critical. And I think that if you're able to bring aspects of digital marketing, right, whether it's backlink strategy, whether it's engaging in some of the content syndication aspects of what a larger marketing team would do, that's going to be critical to be bringing that in house your PR repertoire.
Brad Grantham My last question, you ready for this one, Sarah? This is a good one. My first good one this year, I'm a CEO. I've got a decision to make. And that is, I can hire an agency for this or I can hire you for a specific project. How do you convince me to hire you as opposed to the agency?
Sarah Shkargi First of all, I bring with myself 15 years of experience, you're going to get the most senior person working with you day in and day out. Second of all, I'm not going to waste my hours that you spend with me on logistics or on secretarial duties like sending you an email after our call about the notes from the call. I'm going to actually do the work and spend all of my time read the media and talking to them about your company and trying to get you that that big headline,
Brad Grantham your higher.
Chris Shigas All right, Sarah Shkargi. Thank you so much for joining us today on PR Wars.
Sarah Shkargi Thank you guys. It's been great.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new PR Wars podcast every Sunday night at 8pm. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the PR Wars team. I would like to thank Sarah Shkargi, owner of TNS Media and Communications and do me a favor… if you want to venture on your own as a freelancer. Define what success looks like for you. Build your network. Deliver your personal skill set to each and every client. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Event management pivot
Nov 23, 2020
In the world of PR and marketing, this virus has impacted one specialty exceptionally hard: events, trade shows, and conferences. It's been brutal. PR Wars scoured the landscape looking for someone who's made the pivot, who has changed the paradigm. And, we found it. On today's PR Wars podcast, we learn how Norm Aamodt, President of the Event Strategy Group is finding success.
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello, everyone and welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. In the world of PR and marketing, this virus has impacted one specialty exceptionally hard: events, trade shows, and conferences. It's been brutal. People with decades of experience having to reinvent themselves. I have personal friends who are now looking for work. PR Wars co-host and fellow communications raconter, Brad Grantham and I explored the landscape looking for someone who's made the pivot, who has changed the paradigm. And, we found it. The Event Strategy Group produces events: massive ones, small ones, virtual ones, and now somewhere in between. But there's one mission. They create great experiences. So joining us on PR Wars today is the President of the Event Strategy Group, Norm Aamodt. Thank you so much for joining PR Wars.
Norm Aamodt Good to be here.
Chris Shigas 2020, for many people in your field, was a disaster. For you, it's become an opportunity. When did you come to the realization that that this was going to have big consequences in your industry?
Norm Aamodt Well, we were working on mobile Congress for Lenovo, that show traditionally held the end of February, we our crews were going in to set up and install you know, that kind of thing about a month out. And they were already talking about restrictions on certain people coming from certain geographies around the globe. And with a little bit of digging, in mid January, it became pretty clear that this was something that was going to get a lot bigger, it was growing exponentially in China. And, and people were starting specifically this show, because it has such an international audience of you know, a few hundred thousand people.
Chris Shigas And I can remember for us it was CERAWeek, which is a big oil and gas show in Houston. At first, they were going to ban handshakes at the conference. And I'm like, whoa, it was kind of a wake up call. And that was even before they ended up obviously canceling the whole show altogether.
Norm Aamodt was that I mean, the association GSM, a tried very hard to find a pathway that would continue to yield a show. And I think that they ultimately had to cancel.
Chris Shigas It could have destroyed your business. But at some point you had to reach and you had to think and you had to brainstorm and pivot. Tell me about that moment.
Norm Aamodt I remember, our 20th anniversary is April, April 20. And we were approaching it and we planned big celebrations for this year and all that kind of thing. And we had built the company from from an organization whose motto or whatever was, we're gonna do one event a month, the one that was doing 10 or 15 a week. And we were happy about that. And we're continuing to grow, continue to get new clients. And when this happened, and the industry just crumbled, right? Every day, somebody called up and said, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. We kept trying to hold out hope was not going to last long. You know, we can wear a mask. Um, it really became clear, I would say, after the mobile world, Congress was officially cancelled, we were in the mop up of all the billing and the people and logistics on that, that in early March that we my partner, Rene and I sat back and said, what are we gonna do? Because, you know, we could have closed the company, right? A lot of companies like shut their doors, you know, kept their money and walked away and just let everybody go. And we decided we weren't going to so we are We brought in, we circled the troops, we got people to go, or team in our company together, we brought in you outside folks that we thought were extra smart and could help us through the process. And we looked at, and we tried to define what happened to us. And what's going to happen to us. And we came up with some core tenets. And one is that, you know, there's a disruption in our industry is going to be turned over as a result of this. And, and so, whereas a lot of people, I think were thinking that, you know, this is going to be gone in six months, eight months, 10 months, you know, whatnot, I think that virtual events, or some people call them digital events, are something that's going to be here to stay, because we're proving the efficacy. We also looked at as an opportunity, we've always looked at challenges as an opportunity. You know, not as not as an obstacle, you know. And so, so we looked at as an opportunity, we tried to find the differentiators we look, we tried to look hard at, at what it was that we did in the past that we are still going to be doing and what it is we're going to need to change to be effective in this role forward. We also saw everybody that the conversation at that point, and I'll stop me anytime the conversation with clients, and prospective clients and the industry as a whole. Everybody was running out what platform you're going to use. And you know, is it gonna be zoom teams? Or even just there's WebEx and on 24 and six connect and all the rest of them Skype? Right? Yeah, whoa. And also, our focus was it, delivery is not going to be an issue, I could put a I could stream video video on Vimeo and put it in a webpage and in 15 minutes, but it's more about content, and it's a story you're going to tell and how are you going to engage the audience? And and even one notch up from that? How are we going to communicate with audiences in this new world? You know, the way people consumed information five years ago, 10 years ago, two years ago is much different than it is now. We tuned into YouTube, we've hit Netflix content is already queued up based on our preferences and you know, programs running in the background and watch what we do and offer up new stuff. So how can we be reflective of that movement in our society? So we've it's been a heck of a ride. It really has.
Brad Grantham We're gonna get into the content side of this and where we go forward, and a couple minutes, but I want as from a business perspective, take a step back. You mentioned you had that cut, or you had that moment, we had to rally the troops, bring them all in one room and kind of figure out Alright, what are we going to do? How are we going to salvage this? What are we going to do? You know, many events, companies have laid off all their staff, they may have one or two people left behind, they switch to just video production. Instead of doing events or you know, content creation. How much of a buffer did you have in the bank for a time like this?
Norm Aamodt Well, we initially pledged not to lay anyone off. And I because that's not we've never in 20 years laid anybody off for financial reasons. There's other reasons why. But we've never done that. And, and that was our mantra for the first couple months. And we started looking at the money, we figured we could get to the end of the year. And and see what happens. We're we're a little bit in that mode, but we're not. We're very bullish about it. We're gonna be around, we're sticking around. We did lay out with two layoffs one, we were at 45 event managers, we reduced by seven and then we reduced by another nine.
Brad Grantham So from a content perspective, you know, talk us through how you're doing the events right now, obviously, nobody's in person that's all virtual. Or if there is an in person event, it's extremely limited to the people who are in that room, obviously, with COVID test other things. What does the event of today look like for either a global company, regional company? If they're working through you, what is it look like? And what are you offering?
Norm Aamodt Good question. Um, the first thing I think you got to do when you think about the engagement of an audience is that you know, we're now constricted to what goes through this screen we're looking at you and I are right now. No, it goes to this 13 inch screen. So how do we create that experience? Right. You know, we're limited, our hands are tied, you know, our bump. We can't shake hands. We can't do the things we used to do live and put on the shows and The, you know, the confetti cannons and all that stuff. So um, so when we first started focusing on was providing experience on the other side by delivering things, you know an event in a box. And we focused on social events, which we do tons of now where it's an hour long zoom meeting, we're doing a, we had the head of law calm, do how to make coffee, we've got Mr. Weber do it literally doing cooking shows for us. And we've got a couple people in the company, they're just focused on building out these programs where we can create a two way interaction. And to us, that's the fundamental tenant of what you have to try to get done in the virtual world, you have to have a voice both ways, so that I can talk to you, you can talk to me, we can exchange an idea and share. And, you know, so much of what we look at now is pre recorded, you know, it's called Live, it's not live, it's semi live, blah, blah, blah, but so much is not live and and I think that, that when we get into content, I think that when we get into content creation for clients, we talked them about a brevity, abbreviating their commentary to something that actually matters to the other person. Some of the things we talk about is, if you can find it on the internet, you shouldn't be bringing it up on your session. You know, people are coming to you to learn something that they don't know, I can Google anything now and find out pretty much anything I want. If I can't find it, that's what you should be talking about. So if you've got something new to say, let's talk about it. Let's have to talk about reducing everything to bite sized comments. You know, we did an event in 2015 for Lenovo and China called tech world. And the core tenant of the show was 15 to 10 to 15 minute segments, I wanted the audience to feel like they just finished a NASCAR race. And we did a two and a half hour show and the sets were changing that things were going it was awesome. And and really I felt like it just didn't last more than 10 minutes. You know, when you're watching when you watch a really great movie. Right? It goes fast. Well, that's because it's it's written well, and scripted. Well, so. Yeah. Yeah. So we have courage clients to you know, to bring in writers with a different set of writers, it's TV writers that you guys know, you know, that that know how to condense a lot of information into a short period of time and make it exciting to listen to. So content creation, Quick Hits. Communication is super important.
Chris Shigas So you gave a couple of examples there. But I'm really interested. Obviously, you're plowing ahead. And as you go, you're kind of learning along the way. And you're like, Okay, this idea didn't really work. This idea is really hitting the mark. But what are you seeing on both sides of the things where, okay, we tried that didn't really work. But then what also is like, this is so effective. I so I recommend it for every event.
Norm Aamodt We've tried doing the normal thing, a guy, the speaker gets up, they talk for 30 minutes. They put the PowerPoints on we cut back and forth with the webinar of the past, right. They don't work people don't tune in did the viewership. You know, the dwell rate on that? Five minutes tops. But what does work? And we've used this a lot with clients is you know, if you ever watched CBS Sunday morning, right? Yeah, sure. I'm, I hope to be like a chill guy. It feels like a chill thing to do on Sunday mornings, the way that's written and the way that that's constructed as a show, where there's five minute segments, you go to this, you go to that and you move around the same set. We've used that analogy with multiple clients, and it works. It really does work and what even what makes it even more better is doing it live. There's the part that I think clients have to get away from, it's okay to have a little bit of a flaw, it's okay to be not perfect. I mean, right. Now, the guy yesterday was grinding a stump in front of my house while I was on a conference call, nothing I could do. So it's like we're all in this together. And I think that you know, the flaws that would show in a production where you have maybe two speakers not quite experienced or they make a mistake, it's okay, move on to say, I bet to say this, or I'm gonna do this and move on. But that that creating a creating a segment of content that then moves quickly, and has something to actually say is what works
Brad Grantham from an ROI perspective. You know, one could argue that events of the past before COVID may not have been the best use of dollars from a targeted perspective for customers clients. So if you have a huge trade show, you've got 30,000 people show up major Gonna rate, you know, 50 to 100 leads maybe a little bit more than that. Maybe that wasn't the best use of dollars going forward, you know, there's going to be that natural need to want to connect in person that always be that need for events. But how do you visualize it as a combo, perhaps, where you still have the in person event, but it may be scaled down. At the same time, you're doing some type of live virtual event in parallel to the actual main event
Norm Aamodt is a spot on. I've been doing events since the mid 80s. I sad to say. But you know, so much of what we do in the event business is about the reaction of an executive or the reaction of a company to say I got a bunch of awards, it's Wait, I got, you know, 20 leads wonderful. But when you get into digital events, or virtual events, the ability to measure is, is unending. If we can tell what everybody does, we can mind chat for keywords, we can tell them long dwell rates, how many people show up. And, and so what that's, I think going to do, when events start to come back, and as you point out, I'm 100%, sure they're going to come back smaller, more focused, you know, that the money's gonna be a little more, you know, it's tougher to get sometimes like it was after, you know, eight or nine. But I think that, coupled with a virtual event, it's going to force the live events for men to put in measurement metrics. Now, what is it? And what am I getting out of it? And I think that's the best thing that ever happened on business.
Chris Shigas What one thing we've noticed in public relations, and from an external communication standpoint, is more and more companies self publishing, and creating self content and looking for different channels to publish. So what I'm hearing from you in creating, possibly your own show your own broadcast, not thinking it of it as a conference that's online, but but more of a presentation, it's it's kind of another channel for companies to produce self content.
Norm Aamodt It's true. I mean, there's two points to this, I want to make sure I don't forget, the second one is I did last time, I think that it it's difficult for companies and event managers, inside companies to turn into line producers for TV shows great, you need to bring in the pros, there are still things, there's lots of things for them to do, they've got to go find the speakers, they're going to get the content together, they've got a, there's a lot of registered people, there's all the things, there's still a role for them. The what, what happens, though, is that if you look at what CES is doing this year, they in partnership with Microsoft are producing CES television, they've come out and said they were going to produce broadcast TV for four days, in early January. And that tells you everything about the way this is going to go where it takes you one step further is now all that content lives on. You know, and I I am a wholly confident and this is what we tell clients. And we're actually right in the middle of this with a with a client now is that you can do that three day show. And we do it effective and really make it sing and get people to sign up and get engaged. But now all this content will live on forever, and you can market to it. So if so you can use that as an engagement tool, down the line on your own hub. And you know, we talk to clients, it's not necessarily about a specific platform, because you could do it in a webpage. But you know, presenting it in scrollers, much like Netflix, presenting it in a way that is organized, that that the way their audiences want to think is really the way to go.
Chris Shigas And that there are thousands of people in your industry that are now reevaluating their career options, right. And they may not know where to turn. Many people have lost their jobs or they see handwriting on the wall and maybe they don't have the vision that you have as far as how they can engage for someone in your industry that's that's out of work, trying to reinvent themselves. What advice would you have for them on how they can take the skills from your industry and and apply it back into the types of things you're doing? Or perhaps be able to engage in marketing communications. In another way.
Norm Aamodt It's funny, I talk to my partner about this very thing, you know, we're not ordering, there's no food and beverage manager. There's none of those those roles don't exist, are gone. But what we are is we're digital marketers, we're digital, you know, we're a digital marketing company now. So you know, I would go out and like I did many years ago you read the marketing books you read what digital marketing really means to talk to friends that then and in people in the industry about digital marketing because in the events world, it's something we never touched on. We've never did this before. I mean, you guys did. Yeah, I do. You know, I would say, befriend YouTube guys and learn everything that's going
Brad Grantham when when when somebody is applying to your company, whether it's now or in the past year or two, and somebody walks through your door, and they strike you, like, we've got to hire this person. And let's say they're just fresh out of college, maybe a couple years in, what are the qualities that you look at, in a person who's applying to get in this industry. And you say, I want that person.
Norm Aamodt It's funny, we don't have a mole, but we do. Emotional intelligence is at the very top of the scale, the the desire to do whatever it takes, in a, obviously ethical way. To deliver on a goal, we're in a services industry. So if you waited tables before, that's probably a good thing. If you if you you know, you know, what it's like to take a beating and keep going. Because we are and I think that, you know, an entrepreneurial spirit, the ability to manage money, because our the way our work in our organization is run, as our event managers are in there, like they're the account manager, the event manager, the person that's washing the dishes, they do it all. And then their teams behind them support them. So, you know, they have to, you know, know how to balance a checkbook and know how to negotiate fees. But it's that I think top line is that emotional intelligence and entrepreneurial spirit would be the two keys
Brad Grantham 30 years in, what would you say, is your best success, event wise? And what was your biggest disaster? And what did you learn from it?
Norm Aamodt I think the tech world events we did in 1516, for the Lenovo were fantastic. They were world class programs. I think the biggest disaster was and I won't name this client showing up in Las Vegas when I was much younger guy not having done my homework. So that's a really big exhibit. And I didn't get the engineering drawing stamp, the drawing stamp fine engineer. And I am looking, thank God, I bullshitted my way through it. But if I hadn't bullshitted my way through it, I would have had one of the biggest electronic companies in the world. firing me. Yeah, I'll never forget that as long as I live. It didn't turn into a disaster, but it was close.
Chris Shigas Well, norm, I need your advice here. I I'm putting together my 2021 plan. How do I fill this gap? What what what what should I even be thinking of as my event strategy?
Norm Aamodt The question, I think that, you know, you have to look at the way events, you know, why do you go to events in the first place? Why don't we do all this as a more as an as a company, you know, as we're working on behalf of other companies, and we talk to clients? Well, if you need leads and need to meet people, right, you go to trade shows, because they've got all this data, the companies they're showing up, they do all the heavy lifting on marketing and delivering the audience. And if you do a really good job as a, as an event marketer, you'll get them to come by your booth, you can sign them up for stuff and get their names in your database. So I think I think that, you know, in terms of lead generation, and that front, I would participate in the digital online events as much as you can. But you want to drive them to your own experience, I think there, we just did an event, I don't want to bash any companies. But we did one in the online experience for this industry. That was terrible. The good part was is we didn't rely on them, we had our own digital event on top of it outside of it. So we said, Come on over here and see our digital event, a big virtual booth and on the carpet. Yeah, if you've got clients in the sales cycle, and you know who they are, and you want to talk to them, I would run social networking events, I mean, the last thing in the world anybody really wants to do is to be sold, they want to build a relationship with you, you know, running, you know, like what we do with these social events we do, where you'd run an hour long event, you get every 20 people on a call, had someone come in from the outside to talk or do a demo, or whatever the case may be, like the Weber guy, get something in that person's hands to do that would give them more reason to actually show up the day of the show, you know, FOMO is always a good thing and, and just talk to them and tell them what's going on. And then and then if you can start scheduling meetings around that. I you know, we're you know, on the side, if you want to have a meeting with me, call me up or texted me and I'll be glad to set up a meeting. We can talk more I think that did that interaction is so important. I think another thing that is missing and I think our industry is still struggling with is the sense of community. computing, community chat rooms community, you know, communities around topics. I mean, Microsoft does a really good job on on their stuff. But I don't think that I think that opportunity is missed by companies creating communities around their their objectives, their marketing objectives and their customers and prospects and let your customers sell your prospects, that kind of thing. What are
Brad Grantham your clients? Your current clients? Obviously, most people have scaled back this year, or have adjusted to the virtual events. What are your clients saying for next year, budget wise, Outlook wise?
Norm Aamodt Everybody, everybody's pretty much in a holding pattern till q2. So far, I think they're all we're all waiting for the vaccine. So we can go ahead and start licking doorknobs again, you know, you know, and I think it's coming and we all know it is and so you know, what the advocacy is? I, I think that budgets are going to be diminished. You know, virtual events aren't cheap. And I think that's a, you know, virtual events done right aren't cheap. We just didn't want all those tech world two weeks ago. And we built studios then produced all the content in live studios to make it more authentic. And none of that's cheap, with a huge COVID testing protocol, which cost a lot of money to keep everybody safe. But I think budgets are going to slim down I think companies are if they're still getting the same results and not doing events. You know,
Chris Shigas speaking of budgets, and I know that, you know, obviously, some global corporations might have what's a seemingly unlimited budget for a lot of companies, let's say, a mid sized company, if they want to engage in a virtual event, and they want to do it, right. They don't want to embarrass themselves, what what do they need in terms of budget,
Norm Aamodt we've got a little program, we call it a platform, it's really that's a webpage with with no holes in it. And it's well designed and well run and we serve content, and it only has to live and you know, 4050 grand, something like that to do a couple hours. Well Rania producers in the background and rehearsals ahead of time, someone to write the scripts for you, coach you up on how to organize it, have breakout sessions in the afternoon, you know, get all the technology working in the right direction. It's all scalable, though. It's, as technology continues to evolve like this, this team's live, it's come out that this guy is a pretty good platform for doing live events. It continues to get cheaper, as we get better at
Brad Grantham that as he's talking about all the different sets and this that the thing that keeps going through my mind is the guy from airplane who actually unplugs everything, there's that there's that picture of the guy just going sorry. We we've asked this to a couple of different people who've been on PR wars. And that is this question. If you could go back in time, and tell yourself one piece of advice 30 years ago, what would that be?
Norm Aamodt Wow, that's a good question. Um, there isn't much that did differently. This isn't boastful any way shape or form. I think that, you know, I've been blessed by the turns that I've never seen coming. You know, and, and I think that, you know, hard work and perseverance and dedication to being really good at your job has gotten us, me and my company through a lot of obstacles. So, you know, on the professional and personally, I could definitely rewrite a few of those pages, but, um, perform professionally. I couldn't be happier about the decisions we made as a company and where we are and how we got here.
Brad Grantham From a structure standpoint, what is your company look like at the moment? Like, you've got the event managers you've got, I mean, walk us through with the company and we may not use this. I'm just curious what the structure looks like.
Norm Aamodt That's actually a good question. I'll I will say one thing I wish I had done differently. That's seven years ago, we brought on a guy who was the was Bill Morton's, like jack Morton, the agency. No more in his right hand guy is a retired guy business for 28 years. And we had struggled very hard as a company to get to grow our business. And through dumb luck, Atlanta did this guy bill Barr selector. And he was I wish I had met him 20 years ago, because we would be off the charts. I learned more from him than I learned in the previous 20 in two years of hiring him as a consultant. Then I didn't 20 years in the business it was phenomenal. And that that I would grant would have done over in a heartbeat or organizational Structure right now it's very, it's been very flat. We pride ourselves on, on on our clients being directly in contact with the person doing the work. So like I said before, there's no contact, there's no project manager, there's no, you don't even have project managers. But there's no account managers, there's nobody collecting information, and then disseminating it to the team. client, do, we're done. And that's where we run. And we're finding that we're starting to change that a little bit, we're thinking about changing a little bit, because the client needs more from us in, in talking about how it all works, you know, and, you know, because it works a whole lot differently today than it did six months ago. So, you know, we've got, you know, our people, as any company, you know, some people are better than other things, one thing some people better other, and we've got a few that are that are super good. And taking that, that that the mission of the client has turning it in topping, turning into a strategy and then then communicating how to deliver that.
Chris Shigas We did this pivot, we had this change. Where's it going now? Where, where? Where do you see the industry change?
Norm Aamodt I couldn't be more excited about where our business is going. I you know, I can tell you, we still have four or five, six months of unmitigated, you know, hard work in front of us. I think, though, when it opens up, and people want to get together again, it's gonna take off like you've never seen before.
Chris Shigas And people want to go to Vegas again.
Norm Aamodt I can't wait out the house. I was there 14 times when everybody called me crazy. I think it's, I think it's gonna be a phenomenal renaissance of the industry and a maturation of the industry. Because now because we've got are getting virtual events really, right. And we're measuring the living daylights out of them. Now, we got to do it for the rest. And it's just got to happen and I couldn't make me happier.
Chris Shigas Norm, thank you so much for joining us on PR wars today.
Norm Aamodt was great to be here, guys. Thank you.
Chris Shigas Well, you can talk to Brad and me at PR wars on Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter. We'd love to hear from you and find out what you would like us to cover on the next episode of PR Wars. You can find a new episode every Sunday night at 8pm. Eastern. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars nation. I'd like to thank Norm Aamodt, President of the Event Strategy Group. Do me a favor. If you're in the event space. Don't give up hope. Companies are learning how to navigate this brave new world. And we need you. You may have to learn some new skills, a crash course in digital marketing, but there is opportunity on this new playing field and the demand will grow and you can win the day. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Communications in a disaster
Nov 09, 2020
If you work in public relations, you will encounter disasters. But for a government communications pro, a state of emergency turns the pressure up. On today's PR Wars, we talk with Mike Steele, the Communications Director for the State of Louisiana Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness. In this role, a disaster is another day on the job.
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello, everyone. Welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Disaster. If you work in public relations, you will encounter disasters. There are natural disasters and manmade crises. But for a Government Communications Pro, a state of emergency turns the pressure up. On today's PR Wars, co-host and communications cajun Brad Grantham and I will talk with the Communications Director for the State of Louisiana Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness. In this role, a disaster is another day on the job. So Mike Steele, welcome to PR Wars.
Mike Steele You bet. Thank you,
Chris Shigas As a communication director during an emergency, Louisiana has had its share, hasn't it? Yeah. How are you feeling today coming out of all these hurricanes and disasters that that you've had to face? And COVID?
Mike Steele Yes. So this year has been, you know, especially challenging, and I'm sure there's millions of people around the world that kind of feel the same way. But for our agency, it really has been tough. We basically haven't stood down since March, since we first started dealing with the first wave of the COVID-19 effects. So technically, you know, we kind of look at things in terms of how often were we activated for an emergency. With this year, in particular, it's basically been the entire, you know, last three quarters of the year. And and on top of COVID, we've had, you know, a record number of landfalls, as far as tropical systems are, are concerned. And then a mixture of other minor events with minor, you know, tornado outbreaks and flooding events and those type things that we've had to deal with. So absolutely. It has been a major challenge this year.
Brad Grantham So we go back to March, and COVID-19 starts taking off throughout the United States, not just Louisiana. But in those early days. Louisiana was hit harder than most states at that time. So take us back to march. When the case has started spreading, the hospitalization started going up more specifically in New Orleans, and then it started spreading throughout the state. How do you communicate clearly, through a time like that, where there's a lot of chaos and confusion, not just in Louisiana, but across the nation in the world? What was your strategy?
Mike Steele Yes, so one of the things about our agency and also working for governor john Bel Edwards, he's very proactive. He has a very clear understanding that when you're dealing with an emergency, if you ever get behind the emergency, you likely will never catch up. And so it's good when you have leaders that understand that type of strategy. Also, there's the governor's Chief of Staff, Mark Cooper is also an ex director for our agency. And then of course, we have the leadership in our agency. You know, a lot of them have military backgrounds, you know, very distinguished background. So it's good when your leadership understands those types of situations. With that being said, no one had a clear picture of exactly what we were dealing with with COVID at the beginning of the that emergency. I think one of the things that did help us well, we had a number of things that hurt so we obviously had Mardi Gras right around that same time. It was the beginning of kind of the spring outdoor Carnival, you know, festival type season here in Louisiana, people were just starting to, you know, kind of get out of winter and travel more, you had a number of big sporting events in the state around that time. So I think we got hit worse just because we we get such an influx of people during that time of the year. If there was a benefit, because of the frequency of how often we deal with emergencies and even when you take a look at a hurricane season like this where you have back to back to back events happen. It creates a lot of it creates a lot knowledge on how to deal with very complicated situations. And so when our staff looks at purchasing, you know, peepee, in masks gowns, you know, sanitizer, all those things that everybody was kind of fighting for initially, our staff has very strong ties to be able to reach out to different sectors, and acquire those things. And I think that really helped us kind of initially well, while the federal government down to the state government was trying to get their hands around this situation.
Chris Shigas So let's, let's talk about the strategy of your communication responses. So when you look at like a pandemic, or you look at a hurricane, or things, and those are types of things that you can plan that, okay, here's communication before the event, here's communication during the event, here's communication after the event, and really in crisis calm from your position, you're kind of juggling two things. One objective is to get out critical news information that the public needs to know, there's also a form of strategic communication, where you are encouraging the public to an action, right, you want them to stay safe. And here's some ways that you can protect your family, maybe it's an evacuation, and you want to encourage people. So when you're preparing these communication pieces, how you're juggling and how you're approaching you as a new source, but also you as a strategic communicator, encouraging public safety. Yeah,
Mike Steele so right off the bat with this event, one of the things we typically do for a larger event or a larger emergency would be to activate the join information for the state. So my role at ghostship is actually to be in charge of that Joint Information Center. And that's where you have the communications employees from all the various agencies, that a lot of them actually come to go SAP and we actually work in the same room, we release information. Now, as a unified group, with all the different agencies, it's mainly the cabinet agencies, but especially the agencies that are involved more with an emergency response, obviously, there would be a big component to this with Louisiana Department of Health, and under them the Office of Public Health. But because of COVID, we couldn't take that same strategy. So we were trying to do a lot more things on a virtual basis, the governors communications team has been really strong in their leadership, falling in line with what the governor is trying to do. And so they kind of rounded everybody up. And so that I guess the big three agencies involved in this would be us Louisiana Department of Health, and, of course, the governor's office and his staff directly. So we would discuss things we would talk about what's the best way to send this information out? The governor staff has a very robust social media presence, we do as well. And so everybody was using their, their social media channels. Um, I can say, you know, kind of looking back at it, it's, it's tough when you don't have everybody on the same page, right, like it share, there's a million opinions about COVID-19 and
Chris Shigas impact, the severity, right,
Mike Steele the severity, just everything about it not get that even, you know, my opinion on exchange, probably 10 times over the past couple of months. And I know, people were struggling with that, when you're looking at the issues with the economy, you know, it's it's a, it's a balancing act. It, you know, just concerns me as a as a citizen, as somebody who's born and raised in Louisiana, you know, when you see people kind of attacking each other, because of those differences. That's tough to deal with sometimes. But hopefully, you hope that message gets to them, so that people can make just good strong decisions for their families, and their loved ones and the people that they deal with. And that's really all you can ask, when you're dealing with a regular emergency. Just because an evacuation orders given doesn't mean everyone's going to get out of harm's way some people may choose to stay, you try and give you the information and hope that people just make a good strong decision based on what they're dealing with.
Brad Grantham Let's dive in a little bit to both COVID and the hurricanes. When you guys are working behind the scenes, and you're deciding, you know what channels we're going to use, we're gonna use social for this, we want to put this on TV, we will make sure this one's on radio, we're going to tell how do y'all divvy that up? Is it like a editorial meeting? Like we've had back in the day? Like, here's the messages we want to get on these channels? Or is it more just word of mouth? Let's do this, this this, or is it really kind of written down?
Mike Steele Yeah, I think for us, there's there's a lot of we're given a lot of leniency on our social media channels to just push information a lot of times it's just reposting information. You know, it may be from the National Hurricane Center or our, you know, Louisiana Department of Health with COVID. And so there's a lot of leniency. When it comes to our social media accounts, it gets a little more restrictive when you start talking about actual press releases, where you're going to have quotes from your leadership involved, that type thing, because the governor is so proactive, a lot of press releases related to, you know, a presidential disaster declaration requests, those type things that we may have pushed out in the past, the governor staff kind of has taken the lead on that now. And so our staff kind of works with him on crafting that information and getting it out to us. It's like, it really doesn't matter what channel it officially goes out on as long as it's getting out to the public. A lot of times when it goes out on the governor's channels, we received that information now on gossips accounts because that actually hits our local OAP directors, it hits all of gossips employees, it hits our regional coordinators that work in various parts of the state. And we have, you know, somewhat different media lists, and maybe the governor staff does. So we'll, we'll reshoot that information out on those channels, just to try and make sure it got out to as many people as possible.
Brad Grantham You've had COVID-19, you've had five named storms, or is it six? Okay, so you've had five storms,
Mike Steele still got that out there when he still had that out there.
Brad Grantham And two of those storms hit near Lake Charles, Louisiana. One is a category four. The other is a category two, I believe. And then you had one, was it last week, the week before? towards towards the ronzi lose track, right. But when these storms come in to Louisiana, you have reporters from all over the United States descending in kind of parachuting in from Houston, Dallas, Charlotte, all over wherever their bureaus are, they're coming to Louisiana before the storm during the storm and sticking around for a couple days after as the head of communications, how do you adjust your messaging and you know, the need to get that information as soon as possible to them? How do you kind of pivot to kind of help them? And then the second component to that question is what is your biggest challenge, and communicating with them or, you know, whenever they're asking for when those storms
Mike Steele are coming your way, all of that just about everything you listed is is a challenge at times, but it's just things you have to work through. For two of the events this year, we didn't actually call for backup to come in there's there's a very robust system across the United States that states can can use to assist each other. And it's called the emergency management assistance compact. So we can reach out to other states for everything from emergency operation center, personnel to communications people, like like myself, and you can actually have them deploy to your state to help out. So Kelly Kane is kind of my counterpart in Oklahoma, we actually contacted her to see if she could come down and kind of be a backup for me at times or whatever. So that was a big help. That was one of the lessons learned for me over the years is don't wait until the last minute, you know, get help before the situation arises. And so she was she made a big difference as far as helping me out. But one of the things that was very difficult to work out was we, early on, you know, starting in that February, March, Windows started looking at ways to to deal with hurricane season, we knew it was going to be a challenge to shelter people this year, when it was going to be a challenge to respond. Just everything about a COVID environment makes everything more difficult. And so we were already addressing some of those things all the way back in in, you know, February, March, April, all that range before hurricane season ever got here? Well, a lot of our local media and regional media, and already done those stories about, you know, here's what we're going to do and everything else. So in the middle of the emergency on the first couple of storms, you had a lot of national media that weren't familiar with Louisiana, and they were calling to try and go back and do that story on the whole planning process. And when you're limited on personnel and the number of people that can actually answer those things, you know, especially in in, you know, when things are really starting to get hot and heavy. You know that that takes up a lot of time and it was you know, I felt like maybe there should have been a little more background done by some of the reporters to say like, okay, these stories have already been done. They've already kind of answered a lot of this kind of stuff, and it would at least give them a head start. Start on doing those stories instead of just hitting us out of the blue, you know, in the middle of a crisis, I guess. So that was definitely a challenge. And, you know, we had those types of media inquiries coming in from all over the world, because we were one of the first agencies to deal with a big wave of COVID. And then a tropical threat, as well, of course, Louisiana would be first. But that's the way it worked out.
Chris Shigas When, when I'm working on a crisis, empathy is an important part of the communication process to put yourself in the mindset of the person you're communicating to. And in this case, in your case, it's the public, the people of Louisiana that that you're working to protect, when crises go on for an extended period of time, where you have multiple crises in a row, I find myself constantly writing in that form of empathy, it can mentally take a toll on both on you and your team. And one of the things that's important as a professional to look out for is your team, how are they holding up? Are they mentally strong? Or do they need to step back for a minute, and that's okay, that's definitely
Mike Steele a factor in I'm sure it comes into play a lot. It just so happens, I'm surrounded by a team of people that really just, you know, you'll see people get frustrated, or you'll see people, you know, even in some cases, make a joke like, Oh, my God, you know, how are we get hit with this again, or whatever. But then, minutes later, they're rolling up their sleeves and really getting after it. Even with the FEMA personnel that we worked with, you know, a lot of the FEMA teams that deploy in and take part in emergencies and everything. You know, a lot of those employees actually live in Louisiana, there were definitely times where people needed to just kind of step back and catch their breath and everything. But you know, looking back, that was a great question, by the way, because looking back at it there, I can only remember a hand and full of times where, you know, it was someone was just kind of on the brink of exhaustion, our operations staff, you know, like I said, the fact that they had to work through all those PP issues. And when everybody was trying to acquire the same things, and they really came up with some unique ways to get that done. You know, there were definitely occasions where they maybe should have been exhausted, but you know, you didn't really see it, they, they will all kind of look after each other and kind of keep the ball rolling. But I think we're fortunate with the personnel we have because of that,
Chris Shigas well, let me pull it back a little bit from from like a career track. You have a lot of young public relations people, and maybe they start off in an agency type environment, and they're proactively pitching media for a consumer brand or something. And it's difficult, right? Because you're trying to pitch these stories, and maybe the media is not interested and that kind of thing, a government communicator could be an attractive career path. I mean, you're having the media come to you, right? That probably sounds good to a lot of agency people. And you have a track from journalism, to to a government communicator, which is probably even a more direct fit, right? Because journalism so much is engaged with government relations. Tell me about that transition from journalism into the role that you have today,
Mike Steele especially in the in the early half of my career, like I did a lot of storm coverage. I was in the middle of a lot of hurricanes. You know, we've joked about it at one point, going back to probably Andrew was probably the last hurricane where I didn't either either have a news, you know, sign that I had to work on an emergency management side that I've had to work, like, that's how long it's been going on. And Andrew hit Louisiana in like 1992. And so I was familiar with a lot of the basics, on emergency response in emergency management's role, I had to learn a lot more about recovery. And just all the parts that come after the cool part, right, the response kind of cool bar when you're seeing people, boats and helicopters and everything. There's so much more that comes after that. That's where I really had to make myself more knowledgeable.
Chris Shigas And sometimes, as a journalist, you can see the responses of public officials that you're like, Ah, you shouldn't say that. You should say this. And you actually can then utilize that that experience when you're in the role, right.
Mike Steele Yeah. And I think from the empathy standpoint, thing you talked about was, you know, we've had to be really careful, because we've had multiple tropical threats and some resulting in hurricanes that actually hit the coast this year. So it was important to tell the public, hey, we have recovery people that are still going to keep working on this recovery process. Just because a lot of our attention now is on the latest emergency and in response Like the immediate needs the life saving work that has to go on right now, it doesn't necessarily mean that your response, your your recovery process is going to slow down for the events that have already happened. And so that's that's been kind of a juggling act this year that we really haven't faced before.
Brad Grantham So when journalists, again, are parachuting in, I want to leave our audience with some tips if they're thinking of governmental style, communications, what are your biggest challenges during these events? Whether it's COVID, whether it's hurricanes, whether it's whatever may come next week, hopefully not another hurricane? What are your biggest challenges that you have? Or you could, you could say, maybe pet peeves, but not really, but that you wish journalists knew, or you wish future communication professionals knew that would make their lives a little bit easier, and your life's a little bit easier.
Mike Steele So for someone coming into my job in another state right now, my first bit of advice would be, don't be afraid to say no, because especially when there's, you know, a pending event, you know, when you have a hurricane threatening, you know, the state or something like that, it's, it's really easy to try and want to do all of the media requests and everything that come in, but at some point, it just gets overwhelming. And so there's certain times where you just have to say, like, Look, I'm sorry, I'm not going to have time now. We'll try and adjust and do something a little later. I do have good leadership that will step in and help out with some of those interviews Ned time thing, but it's just impossible to get to everybody in every situation. Another thing is, you know, we've had times, especially with big three storms this year, where people were looking for data, you know, everything's driven by data these days, they want to know, how many homes were damaged, how many businesses were damaged? What's your oil industry look like oil and gas industry look like? those type things? You can't answer those questions right away. You know, I think we've become so accustomed just information being available one that, that we realize that when people are still trying to, you know, rescue people with a helicopter or boat or something, you're not always going to have all of that information. It takes days, even weeks. And a lot of times it may depend on which local officials we're dealing with, obviously, some of the New Orleans region, the local emergency management offices are going to have a lot more robust staff than the, you know, ones in some of the rural parts of the state. So they may not be able to answer, how their parishes were impacted, you know, right away. So trying to get that data, one of the things we did do this year, that was different was we ask people to start self reporting. And we use a survey now, where we ask people like, hey, if your home was damaged, fill out this survey, give us an idea of what you're talking about. Because that number one can help fill in some of those gaps. And it can also get the get the recovery process started, it gives the local officials an idea of, hey, these five parishes within this one city, we need to get teams out there to begin the damage assessment process. And if we have people self reporting, that information that kind of gets all of that going. And it'll provide something for me to give to the media, we can say it's not 100% verified, but we have at least, you know, 300 households saying they received damage. So at least gives us some type of a starting point.
Brad Grantham What is the one thing that you've learned this year? in your practice of communication, that you may not have thought of before? What's one takeaway from this year?
Mike Steele That's a good one, I found out that people are stronger, I think people are as a whole are stronger than they realize when you look at everything thrown at the public in 2020. You know, it's just amazing. And when you start to throw these natural disasters in, in certain parts of the country, and it's not just us, you know, California wildfires, and all these other areas that have had all these major events. Look at the big storm outbreak, I can't even remember how to pronounce that up in the Midwest a few a few months ago, you know, so there's been all these natural disasters on top of all the uncertainty about public health system in the economy and everything. I think people can stay in more. It's just an idea. They want to be informed.
Chris Shigas I think, every communicator, as you look back on your career, you want to know, How did my communication make a difference? Right? How did I make the world a better place, and hopefully, you have the opportunity between between events to kind of sit back and think you know, what I'm really proud of, of the work that we've done to help protect the community. And it is a really vital service that we provide.
Mike Steele No doubt about it. Like I'll give you an example right now. This week, we're dealing with going back to Hurricane more, the biggest This storms that hit the state and hit the Lake Charles Aaron, you know, we still have evacuees in Lake Charles area. There's not a lot of hotels around the Lake Charles area and much of the city is still torn up. And you know, there's still a lot of initial recovery stuff going on. And we're trying to talk to the local officials about, you know, temporary housing options to help fill in the gap between when their home can be permanently repaired. And when they can have some type of, you know, temporary housing setup, while while the local officials automatically go to the FEMA RV, whether it be the FEMA trailers, quote, unquote, traders, the RVs on the mobile homes, and a lot of the local officials think everybody just kind of qualifies for that type of setup. And that's not nice, you know. And so we're trying to work with FEMA on the messaging for them and work with the public and work with those local officials, the more we can kind of keep everybody included in that process and give them a better understanding of what FEMA programs do. Or maybe even don't do, you know, the better off we're are because you don't get those expectations, you know, out of control that one so we can do it to take more of a team approach in getting that type of messaging and you know, the stuff that really matters to people, that's when you really see a benefit.
Brad Grantham So Mike, tell us about the podcast that goes up as
Mike Steele so goes up, started the podcast about three years ago. Now it's the ghost up get a game plan podcast, it's on, you know, most of the same sites where you can find any podcast right now. We actually talked to emergency officials from all over the country. We take a deeper look at some of the events that he had here in in Louisiana. We've talked to Craig fumigate the former FEMA director and Jim can Tory even you know, so yeah,
Chris Shigas repeat Weather Channel.
Mike Steele Yeah. Right. different people with different topics. But, you know, it also gives people a little more insight and into some of the things that we deal with. And what's the name of again, the gosa get a game plan podcast.
Brad Grantham Well, if you can check it out. And Mike again, thanks so much.
Mike Steele Yeah, we appreciate it. Thanks.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new PR Wars podcast every Sunday night at 8pm eastern, and follow us on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. We'd love to see you there. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the PR war staff, I'd like to thank Mike Steele communication director for the state of Louisiana Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, and do me a favor when you face a crisis. be informative, empathetic and transparent. And remember, the crisis doesn't end until the recovery does. Now go get 'em.
Through the eyes of a TV photog. They’ve seen it all in television news and they are the unheralded backbone of news gathering. As a PR pro, the right connection with a tv videographer can make your story soar.
On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk with 30-year television pro Stewart Pittman. A little respect can go a long way to helping you capture the best news hit of your career.
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello, everyone. I'm Chris Shigas.
And thank you for listening to PR Wars through the eyes of a photog. They've seen it all in television news, and they are the unheralded backbone of news gathering. And as a PR Pro, the right connection with a TV videographer can make your story soar. And before we introduce our guests, I want to say hello to the PR Wars co host and fellow communications Imagineer Brad Grantham. Now our next guest is a 30 year survivor of local television news. He's covered hurricanes and Hollywood and more homicides than he can even recall. And as a photojournalist, he writes, edits and solo produces TV news stories every day. And he's dealt with PR folks like us, and he champions the smart PR pros, but he steers clear of the Spin Doctors, the ones with an agenda, but without a clue. Stewart Pittman, thank you so much for joining us on PR wars today.
Stewart Pittman Thanks for having me.
Chris Shigas Through your viewpoint, as a photojournalist, videographer, photographer, as you approach a variety of events, you probably when you walk in the door, you already know this is going to be a good event or not. Right? What are some of those telltale signs,
Stewart Pittman it's set up some sort of thought put into where the podium is and not being pushed up against a plate glass window with the big factory making noise making socks in the background. Everyone who's covered any kind of news, any kind of press conference has seen that kind of thing. All the time. PR people the best are these just invisible facilitators who who kind of pushed little chunks of content at you, as if you're a guest at a party, and they're not trying to be the center of the room, they're only trying to make sure you have a good time. Whereas on the other end of the spectrum, it's it's like a well meaning helicopter parent who is getting in the way of all the natural camera moments that happen. When I think of the people I think of everyone from the Pio officer at the public school system to the the movie star handler on the red carpet. So it's a wide spectrum, right? And much like news crews can be a wide spectrum of experience and motive and objectivity. So can PR people. And I probably didn't answer your question, but but feel free to ask them.
Brad Grantham No, we'll get back to that. But you talk about experience. You've been doing this for network affiliates. For what 30 years at this point over 30 years.
Stewart Pittman Right around 30. Yeah.
Brad Grantham So from when you started back in the 80s. To now, what has your career been like? And what are the biggest changes that you have seen from a photographer and photography standpoint?
Stewart Pittman Well, technology has gotten so much better news crews have have been reduced by one person that's not very often the news crew personal one, that was always the case somewhat in local television. But the advanced technology has made that just so much easier. cameras have gotten weaker and smaller and plastic and easier to use. And it has slowly precluded the dedicated technician and has made everything just even a little more shallower than it was back in the 80s. And it was really pretty shallow then, I guess the most surprising thing in my time and television is the margin technology. I was in television before the internet. I remember phone books and fat I remember when fax machines revolutionary. You remember actual maps. I remember teletype machines
Chris Shigas that's how fax machines was how we used to send press releases, right enter and that would that would go right into the day folder.
Stewart Pittman It would the physical actual copy the carry from the fax machine to the file. I joke I have some 25 year old reporters, and I try not to go step that on them but they don't believe it. And when I listen to myself explain how we used to do things.
It doesn't even sound real, you know, try explaining to a 25 year old how you used to go to the bus station after lunch, to pick up the tape that was put on the bus from 45 minutes down the road so you can edit it, TV has gotten easier. You know, what used to be a big light truck that was hard to park and hard to operate is now a magic backpack with one button. So don't let anyone tell you it's harder. So that's a lot easier, but the expectations are are harder. And that kind of evens everything else. You know, one thing I heard from from a great videographer, and he started way back when in film. And he was lamenting about the advent of videotape. And now it's all digital, that people may not be as careful with their shots. Because you can get as many as you want. Right? When you used to have film, you had to be very careful how you set up your shots because you only had so much film to edit together. Do you think that maybe you're in your profession, it's gotten better over the years? Or has technology actually heard, technology has gotten so much better that you don't have to put the time and effort to get a decent shot, let alone something pretty meaningful? You know, I used to walk around with a couple of 20 minute tapes, knowing that you know Bigfoot might run out of the woods and want to do an interview. But if I didn't have, you know, 10 spare minutes on a tape, it wasn't happening. Whereas today,
you know, everything's on a on a hard drive or on a card. And it really doesn't matter. No matter the format, I think because of the fact that I operated during the 20 minute tape days, when I come back from a story regardless of what it is, I always assumed it seemed to have recorded around 33 clips 33 little tabs of video. I don't know why that's something my brain knows that when I hit about 33 clips in I can stop. And I think that's mainly because I'm used to budgeting my time and effort because of physical media.
Brad Grantham You have a lot of PR professionals out there who don't truly understand what goes into being a photojournalist everyday and the demands that you have, on an average day. 20 years ago, you may have said all right, Stuart and x reporter, we want you to turn one package, which is a minute and 25 second story. And then we need to do shoot a bow sock, which is that same story cut down or perhaps a different Mossad somewhere have a voiceover with a soundbite. Today, that's much different. You're not just doing one package in one bow side. You're doing all different types of things, can you? Can you explain what you're doing an average day?
Stewart Pittman Yes, whereas years ago, I might be teamed with a reporter and we would be responsible for one minute 15 story. Plus maybe some weather video or like you said a quick soundbite. These days, if I work by myself, I'm responsible for that much and more, more likely, I'm with the reporter. And we're responsible for two separate minute 30 reports and whatever else along the way we may find, again, technology has made the process so much easier, maybe not better, but easier. And the people in charge of us certainly know that and know what can be done. And like TV managers have since the beginning of time, they just kind of squeeze the limit and get just as much as they can. It doesn't always lead to higher quality. But it's amazing what what you can pull off now, I find myself producing an amount of television per day that I couldn't have fathom when I started. And then I'll stand on most of it. But when you're doing two stories a day from two different counties, you know, Something's got to give. And sometimes the quality is I won't say the quality suffer so much. But one story gets more attention than the other. And to come back to your area of expertise. If there is a very adept PR person working with me, I can tell you which story is going to get more attention. The one where I've got this, as I said invisible facilitator, who's helping me not writing the story for me not not orchestrating everything, but sort of shoving a buffet of things to warn me that I can choose from.
Brad Grantham So let's talk about that effect. Your demands are double or triple what it used to be. So I've got an event. And we're gonna have this press conference out here and your assignment desk or you've gotten an email and you're heading out to my event. You also have three other different things to shoot that day. Right? What can I do to make your job easier by the time you arrive? At my event? What are the three things I need to be thinking of anticipating for you before you even get there?
Stewart Pittman Well, for television, you've got to think like a like a photojournalist, you've got to think of the pictures and the sound. And some of it sounds very basic, but it obviously needs to be said because I see such egregious examples of doing it the wrong Way, simple lighting, I made the joke earlier, it's not very funny one about putting the podium right in front of the plate glass window with the big sun at your back. So it's so so your speaker's profile. If PR people don't need to know anything about photography, just understand what backlight being backlit means, and avoided at all cost, those very basic things. Sound, don't plan the big press conference in the middle of the chainsaw factory, unless everyone's going to start making chainsaws for an hour. You know, these days, these are techniques that wouldn't have worked years ago. But if a PR person can hand me a brochure with a basic facts, that's certainly something everyone seems to do. These days, if they can direct me towards some pre produced video illustrating their event, I'm not going to use that as my as my video primarily. But if it's good, and if I don't have a lot of time, I'm going to use it. And you know, I don't I don't want to tell PR people how to write the stories for the news crews. That's the news crews jobs and and any news crew worth their salt can can see spin and misinformation and you know, look objectively, at the ad the story being presented to them, I don't want to do the story exactly like the PR guy wants me to. But I want to, I don't want him calling me up screaming either I want to land somewhere in the middle. So basically, I would say if you're trying to get on television, if you're trying to get your message across, think visually, think about video and sound. Certainly, I know everyone in your company wants to get up and say their piece. But and not like that make a great, you know, save reel for the guys in the office. But it ain't gonna get on television. If if you have some sort of visual demonstration to the side, which may not make for great theater in the room, but gives me something to take a picture of fantastic. And I mean, more than just an artist's depiction of what the factory will look like. You know, that's great, I'll use that. But I can't, I can't make that last. As long as I need to warm to things if you want to make the most of having a TV crew in your facility or at your event. Find something. photojournalists love repetitive action, say I'm going to the opening of a new distillery. And there's a line in the back where they're bottling the alcohol, that may seem like something you want to shut off during the big event. And certainly when we're going to talk about everything do so. But if you can fire that assembly line up, and let the camera guy wander around a bit and get all those wonderful sights and sounds of the clinking glasses, and the and the beverage being poured, and the conveyor belt moving. That kind of cinema is exactly what a news crew is looking for. Because it's more illustrated and more fun to look at, then you're co thinking everyone in the room. So think like a filmmaker, you know, think of the movie you want to see. And think about how you can present those opportunities to the news crew, the news crew doesn't so much want to take the three hour walking tour of the factory with all the suits. But if you can pull them aside and escort them to the highlights of it to where the pictures are, then you're gonna get a much fuller, much better, much longer story. It's a fine line, you don't want to overfill produce for someone, but you kind of do.
Chris Shigas Right. And that's interesting how you're talking about, it's somewhere in the middle, you're not there to make an ad for the company. But at the same time you're not trying to embarrass the company or right, purposely make them look bad. I have a question for you because I had an encounter with a videographer. And I'm wondering how I could have handled the situation better. So we were at a trade show. And they were interviewing one of my executives, and where they set up behind my executive was the restroom. And so I you know, and I've worked in the newsroom before, so I'm not big on jumping in and this is going to be my production. But at this point I had to jump in. I can't I can't, I can't have my CEO in front of the men's room. So I said, Hey, why don't we shifted over this way and that I just don't want to get the men's room in the way and the videographer got offended. Sure. Every being that Oh, the men's room wasn't in my shot, you know, kind of thing. And yeah, and maybe, maybe there was a more tactful way for me to possibly suggest a different background.
Stewart Pittman I don't know it may have been a more tactful way for him to handle that. Because, you know, I think he thought great, I got one job and you're trying to take it from me. You know, I'm a guy, I'm a guy I don't get I don't get to decide anything but I decide what the shot goes. And very often as you know when you're doing an interview, nine times out of 10 when I'm doing a an interview, I've knocked the background so out of focus, right he can't see anything. But if that was the case, there was a better way for him to show you You know, I've everyone knows what it feels like to have a PR guy over your shoulder looking at the viewfinder. Yeah, you know, as long as you're not bumping my shot, you know, or blowing smoke in my face. That's cool. Like you just said, you know, I'm not there to embarrass you or, you know, expose, you offer fakes local news, especially. And I have neighbors who know that I work in news and asked me all these questions. And you know, everyone's convinced that that every news group has an angle or a motive or a slant. And of course, these days, you can find the slant of your choice 1000 places, but most local news crews don't have an agenda. They're just trying to keep the commercials from bumping into each other. We're just trying to create content to get through our day, I want to make a coherent, cinematically free story, that's my motivation. The downside, I could give a flip about your factory. I mean, I'm a citizen, I want it to succeed. But very often, people assume we have far more sinister motives than we do. My motive is usually make exceptionally good television and get lunch. And that sounds simplistic, but you know, if it's true understand that, you know, we're far less sophisticated than then people might give us credit for, if that makes sense.
Chris Shigas Yeah, and you're not fake news?
Stewart Pittman No, um, you know, I get I have relatives who, you know, will will flood my Facebook page with Happy Birthday notices every year, and every other day of the year rebel against the fake news media. And I don't I guess they don't make the connection. I'm pretty hard to offend. But you kind of get in there with that. So it's a crazy New World. You know, I've said before on my blog, guys in handcuffs used to slow their roll round me Say Hi, mom. Great. All right, now I've got grandmother's flipping me off. Because I'm fake news. And I'm the same flub with a little thinner hair that always was. So it's, that's a whole nother subject, but it's, um, the things that changed a great deal. And you have to be aware of that. And even with that in mind, you know, people are people and I don't have any trouble moving in and out of all kinds of unseemly circumstances that don't involve PR people. Normally, if I'm in a place where there's a, there's a PR person, I'm thrilled because, you know, I'm not in a janky part of town, you know, going up some widow's porch, asked her about her husband. So if I'm at the line, yeah, if I'm somewhere that's civilized enough to have a PR person there. I've already won that day. Oh, I love that, quote,
Chris Shigas civilized enough to have a PR person there. I
Brad Grantham love that.
Chris Shigas That will go on our website. I'll tweet that.
Brad Grantham I remember, in another state, when the governor or the economic development people would have these press conferences announcing, you know, hey, we're got 800 jobs, and we're putting it here this that the other, the governor's stuff was so repetitive, it came a drinking game amongst the photographers secretly, like, you know, the best and brightest. Alright, there's one. Yeah, there's that the other eight seems like the majority of positive PR stories that we see on local news, or regional news is about economic impacts jobs coming into the region, especially over the past year, we've seen quite a lot of other things in this world that have been negative. In your mind, is there any way to spice up those events, those announcements to make it more impactful? Like that PR person? I think you alluded to this a little bit earlier, but like they have a map, or a drawing of what's coming? Well, could they do a 3d video ahead of time to actually show animation to show what that facility will look like? What are some things like that that could potentially spice up those major announcements? I think, you know, the, for the corporate PR folks listening, and this is something they really need to listen to.
Stewart Pittman Well, it's it's simple, but it may be the hardest thing to find. And that is to find an emotional human element connection. You're opening a new factory, it's a state of the art place you want to show me all the whiz bang animation and artists depictions of how this facility is just going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's all well and good. If you're putting together a pamphlet to show your boss better yet get me um, you know, have someone there who's a new employee who is thrilled to be there making the sausage machines and whose life has now changed because of their new job. I mean, don't show me it's it's the same rules when you go to a house fire, you know, get four or five shots of the house fire, but then for God's sakes, turn around and get a shot of the people watching your fire holding their dog trembling. That's the stories the person affected. So no matter what, and I'm making, I'm simplifying things but no matter the messenger Trying to get attention on the news, the easiest way to do it is to tap in to emotion and and to put a human face on it. And sometimes that's easier than other places. Depending on what it is you're you're trying to present but, but nothing gets on television longer and faster, like something sad or happy something, you know, let me give me an old lady to get a close up of the tear coming down her cheek about how this thing is so wonderful. That sounds cheesy, that sounds overwrought. But it's the exact kind of thing you would stop to watch if you were passing by the television, as opposed to an artist's depiction of a fancy building that doesn't exist yet. put a face on it.
Chris Shigas And you there are times where you're not paired up with reporter where you're the reporter as well as the videographer, right? So they send you out to do a story on your own. And maybe even if it's just a VOB, that you have to go and get some B roll and then you have to get a soundbite. And you have to bring it back from a PR people when you're in that situation. And they're usually rushed, right? Because that's not the only thing you're doing that day. What do you appreciate from the PR person? Do you like to get a press kit? Do you like to get an email with the information you need? Like, like, what's helpful to you?
Stewart Pittman Well, I think the most helpful thing to to think about is this, you know, it's it's a PR event, it's inside, there's been a lot of thought put into it. Everyone's dressed to the nines. Here I come in, I'm 53 years old, as average looking, as you can imagine, I'm a little rumpled because I'm carrying 100 pounds of stuff. This is the fifth thing I've done that day. I'm just happy to be inside, you know, there's cookies and drinks all the better. But yeah, very often, I can walk into a room and start setting up my camera and no one talks to me. And they don't realize that that even though I'm not on camera for a reason, I'm there to collect all the information. And I guess what I'm trying to say is PR people need to look at that slubby camera guy a little differently. Because say the reporters late and going to come join if anyone at all, the television reporter is 25 years old, living in an apartment uptown and never goes between anywhere but between work and home and is just learning how to get around and and where she can go on Uber, that schlubby photographer has lived in that town 30 years as a house in the suburbs. A kid in college, a kid in high school is way way more plugged in than than the young journalists just passing through. So I mean, the reporters green from another market, we're worried about putting on their makeup first stand up, right? Sure. He photons got a mortgage, you know, and and a PTA conference he doesn't want to go to later. So those those men and women who are in local news, who have sort of planted themselves and are raising their kids, and in a market where they will work at a TV station for 10 1520 years. They are absolute gold mines and a smart PR person will introduce themselves to those people give those people a card and realize that's the person who can be a conduit to get my message on screen. Because every day that person has to come up with new content. So basically, you know, don't treat the the photojournalist the photographer's as just a technician because very often, they're they are technician, but they're also journalists, we're all a little smarter than we look. And we're very used to speaking to people in all sorts of situations. A funny thing is, people are always PR people are always shoving that I'm that shiny folder full of information in my hand. Yeah. And I'm grateful to get it because, you know, even though there's the internet now, you know, I tend to truck that if if I can hand that off to my people to get off my plate. But I can't tell you how many times someone's shoving a shiny folder at me and I have nowhere to put it. I got a camera. I got a tripod, I got a bag and I want that shiny folder. But where the hell do I put it? How do I carry it out of the room, I can't tell you how many times I've had to run back once I load everything. So if we could find a way to make that shiny folder easier to carry around, that
Chris Shigas would be a way to do it could be a thumb drive, right?
Stewart Pittman I've had that and certainly speaking of that, you know like I said earlier if if these days so many PR entities, you know have their own video had their own YouTube channels have their own production units. I've gotten a pride of my product I'm not going to use your your pre made content to constitute most of my story. But if it's good I am and if I'm doing two stories that day, a lot of it's going to show up on there but these days it's easier than ever. People aren't handing the videotape their their their their email emailing me a link. Yeah, it's so much easier. I think because of the the eradication of physical media everything is a link everything is you know click the click the and that way I can Get a lot more content into a single TV story, you know, than I used to. And so there's a strong online element. Now that that makes good television to,
Brad Grantham what if they presented you this information in a fanny pack? That way, you can just literally flip it around your waist and walk out as you're carrying everything out?
Stewart Pittman I will, I will totally,
Brad Grantham totally do that. Okay, all PR professionals, fanny packs from this point forward with all the relevant information, put your corporate logo in there. You know, as you're talking, as you're talking about the shooting, you know, of these press conferences and everything else, half the stuff you're doing now is virtual, like xootr, or Microsoft Teams or something like that? How would you what would be the simplest tips, you can give a PR pro or perhaps communications professional, if they're about to do an interview with you, or another entity, through zoom, social media, Facebook, what have you as far as the lighting goes, because I see so many interviews that are either completely in the dark, or, you know, I'm sure you watch television or social media store, you just kind of roll your eyes, you want your professionals to look good, you want them to sound good, you want them to be any distractions. So hopefully, they'll be the simplest tips that you would give people who are doing virtual interviews.
Stewart Pittman Well, I don't want to propagate one company's product over another. But I wish I had invested in the ring light a couple of years ago, because I see those everywhere I have a daughter who's on Twitch, doing her seems just work and we got her stream light, and we got our ring light, and it's worked perfect. But any sort of soft light source, whether it be something you'd buy online, like a ring light, or even a table lamp with the shade removed, or even a window, you want a primary source of light, somewhere off to the side of the camera with a nice puddle of light on your face. Nothing fancy. As you can see right here, I've got a window light homey, which I can make look prettier. But it's funny zooms going to be the death of the TV, news cameraman woman, because why would I need to turn on my stuff all the way up up your stairs, your building, when we can do it like we're doing now. So only in eight months, I've seen that shift with with COVID. Everyone wants to fancy background with the awards and the Emmy and whatever it may be. And that's all well and good. But if you're doing a zoom, it's not about the background, make the background is soft, and maybe out of focus. Don't sit right up against the back of a wall where you're backed up to the wall, put some space between you in the background, a nice soft light on your face. It doesn't have to be a fancy light, but just some sort of soft illumination. Try and make the background darker than the foreground. It sounds simple, but it does wonders.
Brad Grantham These days, we do a lot with zoom. I work with a couple of reporters during a day. And they have acquired all the interviews themselves from their apartment via zoom. And themselves have edited, edited it. And all I do is meet them for their own camera part. So zoom and teams and that kind of video conferencing is changing the game quickly. I pray that COVID won't last forever. But I know that will never go back to the way it was 100% zoom. And that kind of thing is not going away when an interview is going bad when you've got a congressman, when you've got a senator who is accused of certain things, and you have them in the room, and your reporter is asking those tough questions. And that's person that is being interviewed is just going all over the place or they're sweating or you know, you can tell they don't lie to the question. The interview is just going south big time. What would be your advice to that PR person how to get out of that kind of unscathed? Or is there a way
Stewart Pittman there's a hard way to do it gracefully because if an interview is going south, I as a photojournalist I'm more interested in ever, you know, I've woken up from my days behind the camera, I realized things are not going well. I'm prepared to capture it all. I'm more in the game than ever. So the worst thing a PR person can do is, is come in and clumsily add to the spectacle. I honestly, honestly, and I'm sure people do it, I would establish some sort of sign or to have my speaker stop talking. If I was off camera was just giving them some sort of sign less is more, less is more. And a good example of that is a 60 minutes with Trump. You know, they made such hay of that story going south, you know, that's that whole thing became the story about the interview. The best thing 60 minutes ever did, or you know easiest thing they ever did. And the PR people can try their best not to add to that add to the spectacle make the bad messaging stop, but don't make it worse by giving the camera more to
Chris Shigas take. Hey, Ben, perhaps I mean, from our perspective, the best way to deal with that is preparation beforehand and to practice how to handle those difficult questions. So make sure we're ready.
Stewart Pittman Right, right. And and no one no one wants to be in that small world. room where the interview is going bad. That's, I've found myself wanting to pull the fire alarm before just to make it stop, because it can get uncomfortable. Stuart, as we wrap up this version of PR wars, I want to ask you this question. And that is, what are the worst characteristics of a PR person that you encountered, like a memorable one that from an event or anything else that stood out in your mind, like, oh, and these are his characteristics, but at the same time, what are the positive were the most positive characteristics of a person you've encountered from the public relations field? In my experience, a lot of public relations people are HTV people, not all of them. But some of them. I like it when the PR person thinks more like a filmmaker, as opposed to a movie star. Now, we've all have had PR people who are the shyest people in the room. And they're great communicators, and you thought they could host their own game show and God loves maybe one day they will. But they don't need to be the star of the show. You know, I would much rather talk to the CEO as well as the lady on the factory line because they're hopefully more authentic. So I think the worst thing a PR person can do is try and rack up that screen time. I'm thinking of even people like a like a public information officer for a public school, who's going to be on camera relentlessly over and over and over again. You know, we get enough of them. So I've had a lot of problems with either PR people being like I said earlier, helicopter parents who, right during the interview, during the best part of the interview, are the ladies going to say the best thing they swoop in and try and change something. So there's a little bit of trust that people need need to give their news crews. inversely, the best PR people are those who are ones who are thinking like a cinematographer, because their goal that day is to get their message on television. So if only for that day alone, they need to think like a TV producer. And that is how can I illustrate my story? How can I present compelling sound bites and tap into some kind of emotion to sell present this thing, Idea Factory campaign, whatever. It all boils down to human emotion. And the best PR people are the ones who understand that who don't have much interest in stealing the limelight or being on TV. The best PR people television wise are the ones who never go on camera. The ones who do sometimes, you know that gets a little carried away but the best PR people are those invisible facilitators who are orchestrating moments for my camera to capture
Chris Shigas Stewart Pittman. Thank you so much for being on PR wars today.
Stewart Pittman Thanks for having me.
Chris Shigas Remember, you can listen to a new episode of PR wars every Sunday night at 8pm eastern. On behalf of Brad Grantham and this entire PR wars operation, we thank Stewart Pittman, veteran photojournalist now with WCNC-TV Charlotte and do me a favor. When you have a press conference. Introduce yourself to the photogs a little respect can go a long way to helping you capture the best news hit of your career. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Start your own agency
Oct 26, 2020
Have you ever dreamed of running your own PR agency? If you were the boss, how would you run your agency differently? On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk to one of the industry’s success stories... Rick French, CEO of French|West|Vaughan. FWV is the agency of record for some of the world’s top corporate and consumer brands. Learn what you need to know to start your own public relations agency.
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A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey, everyone, thank you for listening to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Have you ever dreamed of running your own PR agency? Everyone has those frustrating moments working on the front lines. But if you could do it your way, if you were the boss, how would you run your agency differently? Can you make an agency not only survive, but thrive.
So everyone thinks they can run an agency better, but very few actually make that leap. It takes courage. You venture out into the great unknown and start your own business. And out of those people that have the fortitude even fewer are successful.
Today we're going to talk to one of the industry's success stories. French West Vaughan is a nationally recognized full service agency. Its headquarters is in the capital of North Carolina, and they have offices in strategic markets across the country. They're also a member of the IPREX network globally. French West Vaughan grew from a small upstart and is now the agency of record for some of the world's top corporate and consumer brands. And they also keep a full trophy case of awards, including 20 National Agency of the Year honors.
Joining us today, to talk about the things you need to know if you want to start your own agency is the CEO of French West Vaughan, Rick French. And before we talk to Rick, I'd like to introduce the co host of PR wars, and fellow communications maestro Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham Maestro, where do you come up with this stuff, Chris? I mean, I'm not a distinguished musician, by any means. But one could assume if you have opened an agency, or you're going to consider opening one, that would be Mo Money, Mo problems. And full disclosure, Chris and I worked for French West Vaughan and Rick French for many years. So you probably say we both have a French Connection of sorts. It's a film. Look it up kids.
Chris Shigas Okay. Thanks, Brad. Yes, I have seen the French Connection. Now. Let's move on to Rick, Rick French. I'm so glad to have you on Welcome to PR wars.
Rick French It's great to be with, with you. And Brad. I miss you guys. And so hope you're doing well in these unusual times.
Chris Shigas You have created a wonderful, successful agency. When you started way back in what was it? 1997?
Rick French uh, when I started the agency was 1997.
Chris Shigas Yeah. So you've been through a lot between then and now. And you've seen the ups and downs of agency world. But you couldn't have been born that way. Like you started off in corporate comms, you went to an agency and at some point, a feeling had to get in your head that you said, I can do this, I can create something really good.
Rick French Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me on. And, and second, you know, it does take some courage or insanity, depending how you want to look at it, to decide that you're going to start an agency, you know, as with another firm that was doing very well, I was leading their PR practice. And I had risen to being over both the public relations and advertising side of this agency. But I didn't have any equity in it. And I felt like I was building the business, but I wasn't really profiting from the business. So I went out and saw it. angel investment capital, which is a very unusual way to go out about starting an agency. And there was a gentleman Lee Trone. I knew that because a couple of my former colleagues at the firm I was at had gone to work for him. And they had been telling me I should have a conversation with him. So I approached him with the idea of, of maybe investing in a startup agency. He asked me to write a business plan. He knew I had a non compete agreement, so wasn't like I was going to be taking clients or anything like that. So it was a big leap of faith on his part. And, you know, he put some seed capital in. And I think that that gave me some of the courage that was necessary to go out and start the firm. Because, you know, at the time I had, you know, I had a five year old daughter, and I had one on the way, and starting an agency was scary, because I was making a very good living at the firm that I was at, without the financial backing of Lee, I don't know if I would have had the courage necessarily to just give up my job and take that leap.
Chris Shigas So you went the capital route, right? Where you looked for the financial backing. Was that to ensure that that you would be able to pull a salary from the beginning? Or was there another reason that you just said, I don't want to do this out of my basement. I don't want to just kind of wing this. It's got to be structured like a real agency.
Rick French Yeah, it was both Chris. I knew that I didn't want to do it virtually or out of my basement. I felt like, that's a hard way to grow. I knew that to grow an agency, you needed other people. And I needed to have the cap the capital to hire others. And I did also need to be able to still make a living as I was waiting on receivable. So you know, Lee took a big leap of faith in investing in a startup agency that could have failed. Now, you know, what ultimately happened was when I when I left is several of our premier clients that I had brought into that agency asked for permission to, to come with my new firm, I did not solicit them. It's just that when I left along with three of my colleagues who were kind of unhappy, because they felt like PR was the redheaded stepchild within this advertising agency, when we left, I had to have the ability to pay them and so on. So we put up the money, and Wrangler, and a couple other major clients said, we would like permission to come along. And my former firm said, well, they looked at the odds of keeping Wrangler, for example, without us being there, and said, it's probably not going to happen. So they negotiated, we negotiated a deal. But I gave the first year and a half of fees, every dime we collected from Wrangler while we did all the work, and its other brands, Lee and your bow at the time, back to my former agency as a buyout. So I was carrying all the work and all the expenses. So without that financial backing, it would have been hard to do that. Now. Wrangler continues to be, you know, an anchor client of this agency 23 years later. So it was a good bet. But if you were an investor looking at that, I'm not sure I would have made that bet. You know, because we're a startup agency with a very small dealing with a multinational brand. It could have been a short term experiment, and they might have decided they needed a bigger firm.
Brad Grantham So let's let's talk about 1997. Yeah, you make the move to open the firm. What does your staff look like at that point? So you mentioned a couple people that you You brought on? Yeah. You know, compared to where you are now, that first week? What did things look like?
Rick French Well, it's funny, the very first week, a colleague and I were out in Las Vegas, supporting one of our charter clients, the formal football riders only, which was a bull riding only league that competed with what's today the PBR they eventually merged. So in that first week, our spouses were literally helping us move into the office while we weren't there, to get a setup. I know my colleague, jack glacier, his wife at the time was, was helping decorated do things like that. So we were off working from day one. In the office, we had four of us. And then I used the investment to hire a front office person or, you know, to handle administrative things. And then we started to grow as we started to publicize the doors were open, and added staff from there.
Brad Grantham So from 1997 to Now, obviously, there were some few stops in between where you step back and realized, all right, we've got to hire, you know, an enormous amount of people this year to accomplish these client's goals. What was that first bump? So it was it, you know, two or three years in, we realize all right, we've got 46 people now we need to get to 22 service, what's about to come? And then my second question to do to that is, back then did you have a dedicated new business person to help you with those goals?
Rick French So in our first year, PR week ranked assist the fastest growing agency in the world at a year over year basis. And that's kind of easy. To achieve when you're a startup agency, because if you if you grow by 100%, you know, you're, you're outpacing the industry. But I, I think the the answer to that question is, is really rooted more in a philosophy brand, it's I looked at the agency and got some very good advice from some people early on who had started agencies. And their advice to me, which I will still tell people when I do lectures or discussions like this is that you do not start an agency to create a job for yourself, do not start an agency to, to do it to even benefit yourself financially, you have to stand in line last, not first, in terms of the distribution of client fees that you receive. So if you if you put it in that perspective, I always looked at it as when we were growing in those early days, and funds were coming back in it wasn't so that I could create a larger salary for myself, I looked at as the opportunity to hire another person. And each time we we did this, I looked at that person as Yes, I'm paying them a salary, but they're going to generate revenue for us on a multiple of that salary. And I had the belief that we could attract clients that there were plenty of them out there, what I needed to do was fill help fill their plates with work. And that would generate critical mass and, and more and more profitability that would lead to us being able to invest in the acquisition of other firms and, and always hiring one position ahead of what we needed. In the first 10 years of this agency's existence, we always had one position that we identified a strategic that we had hired ahead of what we actually thought the need was, because we believed that that next client was always around the corner, and there'd be somebody who would come in and want to buy the capacity of our team. And we needed to have the capacity available to sell to them.
Chris Shigas Well, at some point, you know, and you're very successful working for an agency as an account person, and there's a lot of big shot account people out there. And that doesn't necessarily make them a great CEO. Right. So what do you think it was about your skill set going into this that made this agency successful? And did you learn it on the fly? Or was this something that was that you just had in you,
Rick French I'm still trying to figure out if I'm a great CEO, I'm hoping to figure that out before I retire. But in terms of skill sets or aptitude, I, my mom was an accountant. So I grew up around numbers, and I knew the value of cash flow, I knew that you had to accurately account for your financials. And I think the the problem with a lot of people who start agencies is they may be inherently very creative. But they're not very good on the business side. Or you have people are very good on the business side, but they don't have a creative bone in their body. And so I think what I was able to bridge both sides of this, I had a good business sense. And I also had a good creative sense. And, and so that helped. I think that, you know, it's like I learned very early for the phrase that cash is king. And that meant that you needed to stay up on your receivables, you needed to make sure that the agency got paid so that you could pay your employees, you could continue to invest in them and the agency. I know so many agencies that have collapsed because they're lacks on receivables, they could have collected and they're always told the checks in the mail. And people there were clients who will take advantage of you until you push back. You guys dealt with that with a we were always talking about receivables and being on top of it. And that's because every two weeks your paycheck was always coming right. And there was always and every expense report was covered. And we were never hurting for money. But that's because of a couple things. One, I left the distributed profits of the company in the business year after year to create a cash cushion but also we just didn't allow ourselves to get behind. And I you know, there's a there's a 95% failure rate in the agency business in terms of agencies that open fail 95% of the time within five years, I believe it and you've often failed not because you can't win clients. It's because you don't operate it like a business and you don't have the cash flow to sustain yourself during certain periods. And that's what distinguishes I think a successful agency for ones that have all the potential to be but never get there.
Brad Grantham So to that point, you know, we're in a very interesting time right now. And you've faced something like this. Similarly, back in 2008 2009, with a great recession. You know, can you walk us through? Oh, eight and oh nine, what you did as an agency at that time to ensure that you guys would sustain a path going forward? And then, you know, how that relates to now? Or did you learn anything from Oh, 809 that you're putting into place now during COVID?
Rick French Yeah, back in? Oh, 08/09. I think it was actually worse than it is. Now, the bottom fell out overnight in the same way it did here. I think the difference, though, is that it took a little bit, it's taken longer for the cuts in the budgets this time to catch up, I think a lot of companies because of when COVID hit had budgeted for a very successful 2020. So they had the money earmarked. And they didn't necessarily pull back and they've continued to spend it now whether they can allocate it again in 2021, depends on the degree of optimism of the company, and so on. Back in, oh, 08/09, you start to see the bottom drop out. And there was some some financial warning signs in the late third quarter and beginning of fourth quarter of 2007. So, so companies were starting in the budgeting cycle to retrench earlier, and then it really caught up. The way we dealt with it is in Oh, 08/09, we had a handful of layoffs where there were very few and they were generally more underperforming people, you're keeping your best people. This time, we didn't lay anybody off. We did put temporary and they've been rescinded short term salary reductions for people in place in order to keep all staff because we just weren't sure what we were looking at. But what I promised employees was that anything that they gave back on a temporary basis, we were going to accrue in escrow those actual dollars. And that if as long as we at least, had a profitable year, this year, we weren't in the red, that we would pay those back dollar for dollar. And that's what we're actually going to be doing, we're actually having a very good year as a result of cost controls, and so on. So all of those dollars and give backs they'll receive in right before the holidays, this time.
Brad Grantham From a time management standpoint. I mean, you're pulled in 1000 directions as a CEO. I mean, you've got the agency, you've got the film projects and movies that you're doing on the side, you have all these different things going on. How do you manage your time, number one, because you've got everything going on? But secondly, how do you manage the needs of the agency? And what does that structure look like to ensure that the ship keeps going no matter what,
Rick French yeah, well, the, you know, an agency is a byproduct of all of us. And so there's I have a lot of great people around me who I can, I can lean on to keep the ship moving in the right direction and get things done. So I look at it, it's trying to provide more of a guiding hand and be involved where I really need to be with certain clients strategically or very senior level counsel. The film stuff is interesting, because I usually have my mornings that I can focus on the agency at the time. It's lunchtime, here, it's 9am. And Hollywood is starting to work. So in the afternoon, I tend to get more things coming across my desk related to film projects, that tends to carry me into the evenings where I'm often working very late because of the way Hollywood likes to work and I'm responding to things and I kind of fit, you know, running my baseball team down in Daytona Beach in that in between there. But again, I think it's good people allow you to have the time to do all the things that I have my hand in. If I didn't have people I could trust and lean on, then I would not have the capacity to do it. But I guess the other thing I would add and you guys know this well is nothing sits on my desk, it hits my desk, I look at it and I make a decision. I don't let things pile up ever and I don't let them pile up an email. And my when I go to bed every night, my email, I can see my outstanding emails on one screen, and everything is categorized in a file where I know where it is. It helps me stay sane and stay on top of things and also know exactly what I have to respond to and what's evergreen there that there will be Subsequent response coming in on that. So it comes down to organization, probably a type A personality, in terms of dealing with those kind of things, and just making decisions and going with them. I mean, I know so many people that struggle to make a decision, and things pile up on them, and then the weight of the decision piles up on them. And if you just make it and move on, knowing that there's always going to be another one to make tomorrow, I subscribed to that being a better philosophy than looking at things from 1000 different angles, and then still never being able to come to a clear, concise decision, like so many people who tie themselves up that way.
Chris Shigas Let me give you a scenario and see how you could give me advice. So let's say I wanted to start my own agency, and I came to you as a mentor, I'm thinking I can pull together maybe 15,000 a month in billings sounds like a lot of money to me, you know, it might be a little bit more than I'm making per month. And so in my head, I'm thinking, Okay, 15k a month, I could live off of that, I need to go get a website, I need to make a logo, and I have an agency, what would you say to them?
Rick French Well, you've already framed it, because you framed it, that you can live off that, which means you're not creating an agency, you're creating a freelance business in which you're looking at it from the standpoint of whether you can exist off that you're not, you're not necessarily looking at what the long term projections are going to be, I would tell you 15,000 a month, that you should be taking no more than probably 30 to 40% of that total, and living off and then reinvesting it in infrastructure and people and processes and software, and all the things that are necessary to actually grow.
Brad Grantham So one of the things that that you mentioned, when Chris and I were both there was the again, I could be wrong. Something about the 40 4020? Yep. Can you explain what that is for everybody?
Rick French Yeah, sure. I mean, there was an old model, and I, you know, the numbers are a little moldable. That said, 40% of your revenue that you take in should be allocated toward hard personnel costs, the people assigned to it 40% should be towards operating costs of the agency, including the CEO salary and other administrative people who are not directly involved in client support. Because your administrator, your finance, people, things like that. And, and then within that, second 40% is often benefit costs and so on, some people will look at it as 5030 and include benefit costs in the in that part, and 20% minimum should be your gross margin pre tax. So the 40 4020 rule had been around forever in the agency business is kind of a gold standard for what you would like to see how you'd like to spend your resources against those. It's hard to do, it's increasingly hard to do in a talent driven business in which to hold on to your best people, you have to continue to up their salary every year, even though sometimes their job isn't significantly changing. And or it may not be tied to the actual revenues that they're working on every day. Because that can be very fluid and out of their control. So maintaining a 40 4020 is very, very difficult. I think the industry consultants would tell you 50% today is probably the right number to spend on personnel. But they're still telling you that in that scenario, you shouldn't spend more than 30% of your revenue and rent and other operating expenses, new business expenses, computers, filings, everything else. And that 20% is still golden. If you don't make 20% you don't have enough you're not generating enough pre tax cash to to build a cash cushion and insulate yourself against client losses. Because there's no such you know, we're not in the indentured servitude business either with with people or clients and, and the truth is, at the end of every year, there could be budget cuts that affect the agency and you get very little notice and you need a cash cushion there to be able to ride that out. So while you ramp up the new business process to replace that loss revenue,
Brad Grantham person, I probably have about two more questions here, each, but going off of that, you know, in the business 23 years, you're you're pushing through these times, you know things are good at the moment. The COVID has changed a lot of thinking in the world. And you know, one of those is working from home. You know, Microsoft has told their employees and definitely if you want to work from home even after COVID is gone. That's an option. How hard is that? Do you think for an agency? And you know, what are your thoughts on potentially, you know, working from home either full time or maybe like a day or two a week? You know, has that cause you to think anything about that?
Rick French It has. It's a weekly assessment. You know, the majority of our staff have been working from home throughout COVID. We've had a very small team of people in here every single day that are essential to keeping the business going, you know, finance people, and then accounts payable and receivable in my assistant, Sharon, as you guys know, and a few other people have come in because they want to be out of the house. But the majority have worked from home. Will that continue? It's a really good question. I think it'll continue in the near term until there is a vaccine in terms of in perpetuity. I'm not a huge fan of it personally. And I'll tell you why I believe that often great ideas come from the interaction that you have on a daily basis and being able to walk down the hall, if you've got a challenge or a problem and talk to somebody else. And I think when you're just segmented in at home, what you lose is you may still have regular ongoing communication with your team members that you're working with in an account group once you're not having any interaction or very little interaction with everybody else in the agency. And I think that it's stymies creativity. Now, can you get work done? Yes. Can you do good work? Yes. But are you getting the very best of what an agency offers in an at home environment? I don't believe that that's, I don't think anybody's figured out how to achieve that yet. And I think that last dynamic just means that you're losing the spark of some of these great ideas. So I hope it doesn't continue in perpetuity. But I could see a scenario where people get so accustomed to it. And they decide that's what they want. But there's a difference between an agency deciding that it's okay for that, and an employee deciding that's just something they want, you have to find a happy medium there.
Chris Shigas I think that's one of the advantages of agency life. When you're in house in a corporation, you're not surrounded by communicators all the time, right? So maybe you're somewhere wedged between HR and legal, right. Whereas in an agency, you can bounce ideas, you can talk about press releases, or this or that, and maybe they work on a different vertical, but at the same time, messaging is messaging and, and those types of things. So I think that's an interesting point about how agency people feed off of each other to produce more creative work. A question for you, Rick. Now more than 20 years with with French West Vaughn, and you look at the ebbs and flows of the agency, and, and trends come and go. And we had the rise of social media, and you have to reinvent yourself. As you look back some of the what are some of the things you've learned from, and then some of the things that you really feel like you nailed it, and that really gave your agency an advantage?
Rick French Again, I think this would this goes to philosophy, I have always been of the mindset that Once you're comfortable with your business and where you are, it's time to disrupt it. And it's time to think ahead. So we were a public relations agency that acquired an ad agency during a period where that was very uncommon. It was always ad agencies acquiring below the line public relations firms. And then we moved into digital media very early on, because we could see what was happening with social and the influence of that. And we could see that ad buying was shifting. So and now even within film production, you know, the reason I got into the film business was not not to make motion pictures, it's, there's some sexiness to that, that that creates, I guess, a halo for the agency. But the truth is, is that we're in the short form storytelling business, when you're an agency, you're creating press releases, 32nd, ads, print ads, you know, tick tock videos, those are short form content. And I felt like as an agency, we needed the ability to have a longer form content available to us. And we needed to know how to do that where we could weave clients and stories into into longer narratives. So the reason for creating and investing in the film business was to create something. We already had the short form stuff, you know, well in hand, but I saw the future being long form content because brands themselves are becoming publishers and have for a long time now. They're not relying on third party media outlets to distribute their content. They're building their Our own audiences and distributing content to them every single day. And so doing that through film, and that kind of storytelling was something that I thought was another kind of evolutionary trend that we would want to get ahead of.
Chris Shigas Right. And you probably started that, before a lot of these streaming services came online, right? As Netflix was coming up, and they needed content, and HBO Go, and all these other things that now there's a need for content?
Rick French Very much so.
Brad Grantham So you hired Shigas 1.0 that Shigas 2.0. Yeah, Shigas 3.0
Rick French I was I was still looking for a report. But but but but you know, all kidding aside, you two are two of the favorite people I've ever worked with in my agency career just because smart, congenial, willing to roll up your sleeves and, you know, do whatever the client really needed you to do and and just great partners, to the company, and so on. So I was sad to see both of you move on in your careers. But I was also really happy to see you both move on, because you've both done incredible with your, your careers and what you're doing. And I'm really proud of you both.
Brad Grantham Appreciate that. And I didn't mean that to go on the podcast. But no, no, but the one question I do have, and I think we can kind of wrap it up. Maybe Chris has one more question. No, you're good, is looking back 23 years after the fact. If you could go back in time, and tell Rick French in 1997, one or two pieces of advice, what would that be?
Rick French You know, I think I would, I would tell myself that it's a really competitive business that you're going into, you're always competing against other agencies and other ideas. And I'm an inherently competitive person, as a former, you know, elite tennis player and baseball player, I play all these sports, right? I'm used to winning, you can't win all the time in the agency business. And winning is very subjective, whether it's in a new business pitch or your ideas, and they're in the eyes of the beholder. And so in the early days, I was so competitive, I think in terms of wanting to win every account, and every award and everything else, because I felt like that all contributed to the agency story. But at the end of the day, I think as you get older, you realize that you're not going to win. It's like playing baseball, if you bet 300, you're an All Star. We spend a lot of time and energy and money pursuing new business opportunities. Some of them are legit. Some are just clients fishing for ideas, without any real intent of hire an agency, it's easy to get frustrated or get get tied up in the failure rate. But you're going to fail more than you're going to succeed. And if you're a 300 hitter, and you're winning three out of every 10 of those, you're actually not doing bad at all. And I think it took me a long time to kind of come off the idea that my people are really good, or our D, our ideas are really good. And we should be winning every one of these. And why aren't we it's just not possible. It's not going to happen. And a lot of this business is based on not so much the ideas, but relationships. And whether you click early on when you're in a new business pitch or whether you're talking to people, and sometimes you'll just your hire people that you like to work with, or you think you're going to like to work with. And if you find that there's one person that's off putting in the room, it can change the whole dynamic, and then it isn't so much about the ideas or experience or anything else. It's about the people. So at the end of the day, I think what I've learned over time is this business is about the people, which is pretty endemic for public relations as a terminology, it's people's business. You know, that's, that's what I've, I've learned and I would tell you that if you can step back and have patience and understanding and realize that you can't win them all that you're going to get your fair share of opportunities if you stick with it. And if you manage the right way, you can have a really successful agency.
Chris Shigas Okay, Rick French, thank you so much CEO of French West Vaughan, thank you so much for joining us on PR Wars.
Rick French Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Brad.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. On behalf of my co-host Brad Grantham and the entire PR Wars nation. Thank you to Rick French CEO of French West Vaughan and do me a favor. If you're ready to venture out on your own. Ask yourself are you a freelancer? Are you starting a new agency? If it's the latter, invest in your business, invest in your clients, invest in your people, then you are on the road to success. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: How to engage the media beyond press releases
Oct 19, 2020
Get out of the press release rut. On today’s PR Wars podcast, we will look at six ways that you can engage the media without writing a press release. Learn specific tactics to add to your PR toolbox.
Listen to PR Wars on:
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas: Hello everyone, and welcome to PR Wars, I'm Chris Shigas.
Do you ever feel that your media relations work is becoming too process driven? Rinse and repeat, week after week. Write a press release. Get it approved. Send it out. Get the next release ready.
We're public relations people, we want to be creative. We want to move the needle. Well today on PR wars, we're going to take a look at how to engage the media, beyond the press release. Specific tactics for you to add to your arsenal.
Now if you're new to public relations, this will be a good primer for you. And if you're a veteran, hopefully this list can inspire you; remind you; refresh some of those tactics in your PR toolbox. It's good to stop and take account.
How do you keep your work fresh? Well, you invest in yourself, right? You sharpen the saw now sharpen the saw. If you don't know that's an expression from Stephen Covey's book, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.
A wood cutter was cutting wood for hours. He was having trouble cutting down a tree. A man told him "Look, take a break, spend some time sharpening your saw." He said "I don't have time. I don't have time to take a break." And the man said, "If you sharpen your saw, you will cut down the trees faster."
Well, today you're sharpening the saw by listening to PR Wars. You are investing in yourself. Sharpening your saw so that when you go back to the PR world, you are ready to rock and roll. So, here we go. Here are six ways to engage with the media beyond the press release.
Number one - The byline article For a byline article, you write a news story, as if you're a writer for the publication. Now this is not an advertisement. You want to keep the public relations audience as a focus here, avoid the marketing language, because we want to keep this newsworthy. And it's good to structure a byline article as a problem to solution. Just like a real news story, what's the problem that your product or service solves. So let's reverse engineer this thing. And then we begin the article building consensus about how this problem is impacting people and then provide your product or service as one of the possible solutions.
Number two - The op/ed opinion editorial. This is your chance to tell your side of the story. And since it's aptly named an opinion piece, it's meant to have your viewpoint as opposed to the byline article. This paper takes a strong position or a point of view about a topic op eds should be about 500 to 1500 words. And the overall impact of an op ed is not only to persuade your audience to an issue, but it also positions you your company, your executive, as a thought leader in the industry.
Number three - Letters to the editor Now, a letter to the editor is a short opinion piece, and they can be used reactively to correct either a story that's already published, or it can be used to offer an alternative viewpoint to a previous story. Now, each publication has their own rules for the length of a letter to the editor. Most letters should be less than 300 words. So they are much shorter than an op ed.
Number four - Topical Pitch A topical pitch is about a paragraph pitch or email to a reporter about a story or a trend. This is not a full blown, press release. Think of it as a story idea. Now, when you pitch this trend, or a current event, as a story idea, maybe you have a statistic in addition to that, to back up the overall thesis of the story. Now, your brand or product should not be in this pitch. This is pitching a story, a trend. But what you can do is suggest your company's expert as a thought leader for an interview. And this is the way that you get your brand product or service into the story through an interview.
Number five - Deskside briefing If you are starting from scratch, I mean reporters don't know who you are. They don't know what your products are. They don't know what your company is, well, you have some education to do. And a great way to accomplish that is through a desk side briefing. This is a get to know you meeting with the reporter. Sometimes they can be done at the reporters office. Sometimes they can be done at a lunch or a coffee. And in the times like we face today, they can also be done virtually through zoom or Microsoft Teams. However, the real beauty of doing a decide briefing is getting to know the reporter as a person, looking them in the eye shaking their hand, hearing directly from them feedback about the types of stories that they're interested in, and putting that name that email that phone number to a face so that you know what they're all about, and that they know who you are, and what you can offer them. Now in a deskside briefing, there's typically no expectation of a story to be published, all the pressures off. This is a relationship meeting. This is charting the course, if there's a future between this reporter and your company, it is okay to submit materials, it's okay to have leave behind fact sheets, product sheets, those types of things, information resources that can help the reporter out. But again, the real purpose of this meeting is for you to develop a relationship with the journalist.
Number six - Nurture your reporter circle Number six on the list of ways to engage with the media, beyond a press release is to nurture your reporter circle. Now previously on PR wars, we had a whole podcast about just this topic itself. It's so important. You don't want to show up on that reporters doorstep every time you need a favor from the reporter How are you engaging with this reporter throughout the year? Are you reading this reporters content on a regular basis even when it's not about your company? Are you following this reporter on social media? Are you commenting on this reporters posts? are you sharing some of these reporters stories and by lines, these are the types of things that help you develop a relationship with the reporter and have your work flourish. When you follow these reporters on social media, engage with them, compliment them on their work, point out specifics in their story angles that you thought were worthwhile. These types of relationship building engagements will help you build a better relationship with the reporter and nurture your reporter circle.
So there you have it. six ways to engage the media beyond the press release. And remember, media relations is about relationships. If you are blasting out press releases to email lists of people that you don't know. That should be a red flag. You should be making connections. Connect an email address to a journalist story. Connect the story to the journalists name. Connect the name to a voice connect the voice to a person. You are on your way to being a public relations rock star. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: The world hates your client
Oct 12, 2020
Have you ever made a difficult choice to take on a client that has done something bad? In many cases, media villains are not as bad as they seem and the heroes are not as great as they appear. On today's PR Wars podcast, we'll show you how to be the conscience of a company.
Listen to PR Wars on:
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hi everyone, I'm Chris Shigas and you're listening to PR Wars. Hey, we made it into the top 100 business podcasts on Apple podcasts. So thank you so much for listening. You can suggest future topics for the show on our PR Wars Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn accounts. And I promise you, I will answer your comments, personally.
Have you ever made a difficult choice to take on a client that has done something bad? I've represented celebrities and companies that were literally hated. I mean, ranked on list of the most hated people in America. And here's what I've learned. The media makes heroes and villains. It's an essential part of storytelling. But the truth is, humans are a little more gray. They are somewhere in the middle. The villains are not as bad as they seem. And the heroes are not as great as they appear.
Now, when you meet a celebrity, or a company that is vilified, here's what you need to ask yourself: do they want to create positive change? Is the company sincere? Is the celebrity sincere? I mean, when you meet someone's children, their mom, their dad, you get a look at a human being that may not be accurately portrayed under the glow of the spotlight.
Now there are times when you should turn down a client. When the client is fundamentally at odds with your value system. When I was with an agency, there were some clients that I wouldn't touch. For example, personally, I wouldn't work for a tobacco company, I just don't want anything to do with it. It's at odds with my value system. I wouldn't even be able to do a good job for them if I wanted the money. If you feel a client is not serious about changing for the better. If you feel the client wants a spin doctor to twist words around to make them look good, big, red flag. I'm not a spin doctor.
But if a client wants to do the work… if they want to make an impact… if they want to make the world a better place, then I can work with that. I can help make it right. PR people are experts at making it right. And some people in a crisis. They just need a light to shine on the good path. Help them partner with the right organizations and use the power of notoriety for good.
Here's one example that made an impact on my career. I was enjoying an evening at home when a nearby chemical storage facility exploded. I didn't even know there was a chemical storage facility nearby. But the fire formed a toxic cloud that hovered over the entire town. We were given orders to evacuate and my wife was pregnant at the time. We had a toddler and I had to get them out of the house and into the car trying to cover our faces.
You could smell this disaster. It's a strange chemical smell. It almost smelled like a sweet smell But you knew it was bad for you. I knew we did not want to breathe this in. The event made national news. It was strange seeing my hometown on CNN and I watched a press conference with the owners of the facility and they promise to rebuild. Ah, like hell you are made me furious. My life was disrupted, and you're thinking about yourself.
You see, when we returned home, we didn't even know if it was safe. Was there still poison left? Can our child play on her swingset? Can we eat from our garden? I don't know, my life was disrupted, and everything was scary because of this company.
When I returned to work on Monday morning, my boss called me into his office. He said, Chris, I know you were impacted by this disaster. I know what you went through with you and your family. I want you to know, that the company responsible for this has called us and they want PR counsel and media training. My first reaction was like, You got to be kidding me. I was so angry. I wanted this company to burn in hell. Then my boss said something to me, that has stuck with me for my entire career. He said, Chris, before you say no, I want you to think about one thing. How else would you have access to the top leadership of this company and help them do the right thing?
I thought about it. He was right. Anger is a useless emotion. And as communicators, we have a skill, a gift, and we need to use this power for good. I met with the company leadership for a media training. And they began by saying, Well, they've never had their own disaster before. This company usually cleans up chemicals after the disasters of other companies. They're usually the hero. They come in, and they hope the environment and now they are the villain.
The CEO told me that he said he would rebuild at the press conference, because he didn't know what else to say he was on the spot in front of the camera, he thought maybe that would sound good. His intention was not to keep the community in fear. It was he did not know how to respond when he was facing the bright spotlight of the camera in front of a hostile press corps.
As Public Relations counsel, it's your opportunity to guide a client into becoming a positive community steward, not with words, not with spin, but with action. Actionable campaigns, partnering with nonprofit community organizations, actionable decisions to assist victims, regardless of the inevitable lawsuits and court cases. Messages of empathy, followed by actionable engagement.
Can communicators be the conscience of a company? Sometimes, if you can do that, it can be the most rewarding client you have. If the client doesn't really want to do the right thing, if they just want spin, to get out of the situation but they want to continue to do wrong, to do harm, to wallow in the muck of insincerity. That's when you say, I can't help you. That's when you walk away.
The American people can be very forgiving. And the apology has to be more action than words as PR counsel, you then suggest the actions engaged in the actions and then communicate those actions. Now remember, in any campaign, you might not be able to win over the haters. You might not be able to win over activists who are protesting your company. But there may be audiences that you can move audiences in the middle. Audiences that can help you in your engagement that will join you in helping make your community better. So do me a favor. When your company has a crisis. Be the conscience. Remember to build campaigns of actions and not just words. Remember that correcting a wrong could make the world better than it was before the crisis. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: When a reporter is hostile
Oct 05, 2020
Have you ever noticed that when you're pitching a good story, you can't get a reporter on the phone? And when there's a bad story, you can't get a reporter off of your phone. On today's PR Wars podcast, find out why message discipline is so important when dealing with a hostile reporter.
Listen to PR Wars on:
A.I. generated show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas: Hello, and welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Have you ever noticed that when you're pitching a good story, it seems you can't get a reporter on the phone. And when there's a bad story, you can't get a reporter off of your phone?
A lot of times on PR wars, we talk about nurturing your circle of reporters. But there are times especially in crisis communication, that giving a reporter everything they want is not beneficial. It's not beneficial for you. It's not beneficial for your brand. When you give a reporter all of the answers that they want in issues management situation, it doesn't mean that they'll write a nicer story about you. A reporter that's focused on doing a negative story about your company will write a negative story. And it's your job to capture as many column inches as possible to counter the negativity of the story's thesis.
My first public relations client. I mean, the first one where I had the keys to the account, I was running the show. It's a giant new shopping mall 200 and $80 million at the time, quite the investment. It was the holiday shopping season to perfect timing. This mall went all out. I mean, they hired the best Santa ever. Really, I think it was legitimately Santa. And this Santa was so good. He had a writer for his green room, you know, like with the food and the snacks and the drinks. And it was like backstage at a Van Halen concert. My job was to encourage the media to shoot their holiday shopping stories at this new shopping mall. It's an easy pitch because the mall was brand new and it was beautiful. And it was huge.
Well, one busy shopping day, my job drastically changed. As shoppers loaded their cars with Christmas presents, gunfire erupted in the mall parking lot. After the panic subsided. When man was shot dead in his car. It turns out, there was a drug deal that met this horrific conclusion. And as media descended onto the mall, the management was thrust into its first crisis.
Well, this was a big local story. And the management needed to do a little more than just a holding statement. And it's not always the case where a PR person becomes the spokesperson. But in this case, the mall management elected me, they had a lot riding on this. My key message was that safety is our number one priority. And we'll review all of our security procedures, make sure that you and your family have a safe experience while shopping at the mall. I shared these talking points with the client. And we all agreed that this is the way to go.
My first interview was with the local newspaper, and this one was on the phone. He asked me for the malls comment regarding the shooting. I expressed empathy for the victim's family. I expressed gratitude for the heroic efforts of the first responders. And then I proceeded into my key message. Safety is our top priority. We will review all of our security procedures to make sure that you and your family have a safe experience while shopping at the mall.
Oh, I could instantly tell that the reporter did not like that answer. In fact, I don't think he liked me. He wouldn't even let me finish my sentence. The reporters voice increased in volume. His Word pace became more rapid. His tone distinctively, became irritated. You mean a person was killed and you're only going to review your security. What are you going do about this? How can someone feel safe at your mall? How can you guarantee this won't happen again? I knew what he was doing. This is called the machine gunner. It's when a reporter asks you a whole bunch of rapid fire questions designed to rattle you. It's designed to move you off your talking points. You see reporters, they hear talking points all the time. This is not new to them. This particular reporter became angry, he became hostile.
Now, since he cut me off the last time I repeated my key message again. Oh, no, this is not going well. I thought this reporter's head was going to explode. As I listened to this reporter, I could deduce that he clearly did not like my answers. And I almost broke. I was almost suckered into an argument with this guy. I could taste the words forming in my mouth. I wanted to say, Well, what are we supposed to do about this? How is this possibly our fault? What are we supposed to search every car that comes into the parking lot? No one does that this isn't our fault. But I caught myself. That would have been a horrible message. Instead, I repeated our key message on how safety is our top priority. The reporter became so irate that he hung the phone up on me.
I was shaking. I noticed that I didn't breathe the entire phone call. And I exhaled what was left in my body and took a big gulp of air. What would he write? This is not going to be good. Now, early in the morning, I looked at the physical copy of the newspaper, you know back when we used to touch and feel newspapers, and the story was the front page headline above the fold. As I looked, the first words that I saw was my name and a feeling of dread fell on me. And then there was my quote… my words, safety is our top priority. And we will review all of our security procedures to make sure that you and your family have a safe experience while shopping at the mall.
Oh, thank God. My quote is the exact thing that I had discussed with the management you see the reporter could only use the words that came out of my mouth in the story. There were no reporter angry questions. There was no hanging up the phone on me. It was just my answers. This first experience made me a devout believer in messaging. Talking Points are important. Sticking to them are just as important. You know, long time abc news anchor sam donaldson. He said the questions don't do the damage. Only the answers do. So do me a favor. The next time you're being grilled by a reporter. Don't argue crisis are about people. Keep it human, show empathy, and stay on message. Now go get 'em.
PR Wars Podcast: Public relations on trial
Sep 27, 2020
Today on PR Wars, we're gonna talk about some epic PR fails from the viewpoint of journalist Ellen Chang, a freelance writer for USA Today, US News & World Report, and others. But, PR people get picked on all the time. So, we're not gonna take this public lashing lying down. I'm going to build a defense for the comms heroes in the story. Maybe as the gavel falls, journalists and PR pros will have a little more patience and understanding for each other.
Listen to PR Wars on:
Show transcript: “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It's time. Welcome to PR Wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host… Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey, everybody, welcome to PR Wars! I'm Chris Shigas. Thanks for listening to the show. Today, we're gonna talk about some epic PR fails from the viewpoint of a top journalist. But hey, I know PR people get picked on all the time. So, we're not gonna take this public lashing lying down. I'm going to build a defense for the comms heroes in the story. Maybe just maybe, as the gavel falls in this special edition of PR court, my hope is that journalists and PR people may have a little more patience and understanding for each other. Joining me today is our PR Wars co-host and fellow communications magistrate, Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham Thank you, Mr. Shigas. Look forward to your defense, if any in this category. I always wanted to hold a court session. So I hope you have a zingy sound effect to go into this after I'm done. But that being said, Court is now in session.
Chris Shigas Thanks, Brad. Now on to the journalist that's presenting the evidence today. She perhaps best represents the future tier one reporter. I believe that the career path that Ellen Chang has blazed as a freelance writer will become the standard for modern journalism. You see, she works on specific, but multiple beats for multiple media outlets. I mean, you'll find her bylines in USA Today, US News and World Report, the Street, Yahoo Finance, MSN and more. In her articles, they focus on stocks, personal finance, energy, I mean that includes renewables, electric vehicles, oil and gas. She does cryptocurrency, cyber security, even the business of cannabis. She is a modern journalism superstar. Okay, so Ellen Chang, thank you for joining us on PR Wars today.
Ellen Chang I'm really excited to be here.
Chris Shigas Okay, so here's what we're gonna do. This is going to be new, Ellen, you totally cracked me up with some of the things that PR people tell you and how you relay these stories back to me. So we're gonna go through some epic PR fails, and you're going to tell me about an experience that you've had with a particular PR person, I'm going to be the defense attorney, no matter how egregious the mistake no matter how ridiculous this PR person is, I'm going to form some sort of defense for this person. And then Brad, our co host today, he's going to be the judge. All I can say is here comes the judge. Great. Okay, Ellen, you've been a tier one reporter for a long time. And you've seen a lot of PR pitches in your day. So why don't you tell me about some recent ones that you've had that are just a doozy.
Ellen Chang Okay. One of them was this email I got from a PR guy that I had never worked with, took a really long time to get me quotes, connect me with this client. And then he asked me to send him a link, which I don't normally do. So I wrote a tweet about it. And then it really blew up like it got like 10,000 impressions, because a lot of people started to defend it. And my whole premise is that I'll work for you. And you should use Google Alerts, you should bookmark my page, and you should try reading reporters work.
Chris Shigas So what you're trying to say is this PR person, not only did he pitch you a story and ask you to write a story about his client, but then asked you more to follow up with him and provide you with the link of the story so that it can make it as easy as possible on this PR person.
Ellen Chang Right? So he could send it to his client and he could like good, that's what his client is paying him for. And I know he's being paid thousands of dollars. So I don't work for you and I don't need to build that kind of relationship. Right? You should be keeping track and writing Thank you emails to reporters.
Chris Shigas So we have a PR guy who's probably never read your stuff before and probably even now that you're writing about his client still isn't reading your stuff because he just wants you to send him over a link. Let me defend this guy. All right. He's busy. He's got 15 clients. He's he's got other people coming out of the woodwork saying, hey, I need this. I need that. I need the other thing. Oh, I got 15 reporters that I'm juggling trying to get this story out. He's thinking, Okay, well, you write for US News World Report you write for USA today? I'm not sure where it is. I'm not sure I don't see it on the front page. Do you have a link to just take mercy on my soul and cut me a break
Brad Grantham Your defenses weak and your defenses lazy as this person I mean PR, not just PR, but media in general, with reporters is about relationships. And if I'm, if I'm pitching Ellen, I'm gonna try and make it as easy as possible for her. Here's the quotes. If I don't have the quotes right now, I know where to get them. Here's the backup information you need, boom, boom, boom. The fact that he did not research were on that she has written before. The fact that he's asking her for a link, again, to Alan's point when he can simply do a Google Alert or just google once more in the morning. Problem solved. And you just saved, you know, five mountains of Allen pulling her hair out going is this real life? Oh, Chang. Miss Chang, when's the point?
Chris Shigas So what you're saying is a PR person should be a help to the reporter and not the other way around? Right. Okay. So Ellen one, Chris zero.
Brad Grantham Good luck defending any of this.
Chris Shigas Alright, let's move on to the next guy.
Ellen Chang When I posted that tweet about the guy wanting a link. Other reporters told her horror stories of one reporter say that she had a very young PR executive call her 30 times. And she only stopped after she told her to. But there are a lot of PR people who are always sending these emails that everybody makes fun of. And I think it happens other industries where they're circling back, or some of them now, I don't know if it works, because they actually will be like, hey, what time Can I schedule for you next week, they're assuming that you want to. So that's interesting. Amway sales,
Chris Shigas right?
Ellen Chang I'll just keep emailing you. And sometimes I'll write people back, like I write about the cannabis industry. And I'll tell them like, I only cover Cannabis Stocks, like we I must ever mentioned private ones, except when they're about to IP out. So if you write a couple, you would know. And sometimes it does prompt them to say, Hey, I have one down the pipeline. So does benefit both of us. But it's kind of amazing. When people don't know your B, especially since a lot of it, a lot of us have it in our Twitter BIOS, or you put it on LinkedIn. Or if you read our stuff once in a while, then you'll see like, hey, Elon writes about the stock market and personal finance and some energy.
Chris Shigas And when they're calling like 30 times, even if the interview set up. It might be because they're trying to get more specifics about the interview or the questions in advance. Right.
Ellen Chang Right. Where they want you to send question, sometimes I'll do it by a lot of reporters down.
Chris Shigas All right, here's my defense. Okay. All right, this person's calling you they're being a little aggressive. Okay, just making, I wouldn't even use the word aggressive. I'll use the word assertive. All right. Here's my defense. I want to hire this person, it is so hard to find a PR person that's going to pick up a phone and you got one calling you 30 times Come on, like I can work with that I can't work with apathy. I can't work with somebody who's gonna blast out emails and forget about it, like someone who's willing to talk to a reporter, even though you might just bash them and crush their dreams. The fact that this person is brave enough to face the wrath of the reporter makes me say this person's going places. This is the type of person I want on my team.
Brad Grantham Okay, Brad, I my case was pretty compelling, wasn't it? Well, I admire your desire for energy, you also have to be intelligent about it. And you have to know when to push and when to step back. And again, we're talking about relationships. Again, this is at the core of everything that we do, you've got to know that balance. Because if you don't, you're going to end up ruining that reputation or your reputation of the company's reputation potentially, if you are too aggressive. Am I wrong? Ellen?
Ellen Chang Right, because I think some reporters blocked some PR people or they blocked the whole agency or their reporters who don't take unsolicited pitches. And I keep seeing that more and more in people's Twitter BIOS. And they're not all like the New York Times or Wall Street Journal. They just don't need it. And probably because they're not effective. And I think you have to be really careful when you call. You can't just call and be like, Hi, I'm Brittany. Some of them don't even announce what agency they're with. Which they should, it should be like, Hi, I'm Brittany Smith with brown PR company and my client is x. But right away, you can decide if you want to proceed. And reading a five minute spiel is really not effective, because I always interrupt them.
Chris Shigas So you don't like the Hey, Ellen, what time Can I sit up that interview with you for?
Ellen Chang No, that's terrible.
Or the death side? You know, can we do with that side meeting? While I don't have an office in New York? So a lot.
Chris Shigas But tell me this, you do appreciate story ideas. When you know that somebody reading your stuff. They know the types of things you write about, maybe they can refer back to an article you wrote, and they can give you a pitch that's relevant to the stuff you're doing today.
Ellen Chang Yes, those are really good. Because often I got one today where they said, I read your article, and they hyperlinked it, we say maybe effort and they are pitching along the same beat, and that I can tell them, hey, because of Ico, I won't be writing about this topic for a while, or this is to consumer base or to b2b. And hopefully that helps them refine their pitches. And they can go back to the client and say, Hey, this reporter only covers personal finance, or whatever, I used to get a really good pitch from this one woman and all of them were like that very short, with enough stats, three or four paragraphs, but I told her your pitches are really good. Keep them coming.
Brad Grantham The score remains Ellen to chic is zero.
Chris Shigas Pr fail. Number three,
Ellen Chang one of the biggest mistakes I see are failed mail merges. Some of them show about as dear Emily, which is not even close to Elon or as as dear bracket, first name bracket are terrible. They usually completely unrelated to anything I cover. And I tend to keep emails for a while because you don't know I cover a lot of different things for a lot of different outlets.
Chris Shigas So personal when it says dear insert name here,
Ellen Chang right? On the flip side, I do have a good story, I often will send a bunch of questions to PR people, for instance, like at a bank, and I'll send the same questions. So just be See, see everybody and I actually got an email from a PR guy to public bank who shall remain nameless. And he told me that he didn't want to be on this email. He wanted me to email him directly. And I wanted to write him back and say, Do you want me to do a mail merge for you? I don't really know what his issue was. And then I wrote him back. And I copied his boss, because he didn't answer my initial email. So I had emailed his boss to be like, hey, I want to make sure you guys have X so we can include you in this article. And maybe you don't see my email, right? Like, I know, Gmail sometimes winds up in spam. So he was like, Okay, we'll get back to you. So I wrote him back. And I said, we email all the same questions, every bank and this incense to be fair, so then he had nothing to say, except thank you for including us, right? Because he got caught. is why would you not if you're a public company want to be asked same question. You want the media to be fair and equitable. And these are very basic information stories. Anyways, right? So be included. Right? I don't know why he wanted me to do a mail merge and be like, Hi, jack. That's not his name. But you know, so I might just do that for the next one. I'll send them a personal email.
Chris Shigas Okay, well, let me try to to defend the original mistake that you mentioned about all these fails with the mail merge. When you're in your industry for a long time and you're a senior PR counsel, you get a feel for your your beat writers and in your circle of reporters that you know, you can reach out with personal contacts and say, Hey, how you doing Long time, no see and be very personal and relatable. As a young PR professional just starting out, you don't have that circle of contents, and you're fishing, you're throwing bait in the water and you're trying to see who's gonna come up and want to talk to you. Here's the thing. outlook is not easy. Okay? These things can get complicated. They can get messy. Yes, they're very nervous sending things out and your media list has to be just right. And the settings on the mail merge have to be just right. Is there anything inside of you that says, oh, let me take this PR person and just give them a hand. Let me just help them a little bit through life so that they can maybe they mature into a blossoming professional, but you know what, right now, it's just like, you know, when you're in elementary school, and there's that little kid in the corner and just just need somebody to come be their friend. Will you be my friend? Ellen?
Ellen Chang Well, why aren't you checking your work? Aren't you using the same list every time? Don't you have like, national, regional, local? Or radio and TV friend? And all? I you? I mean, why aren't you using the same mailmerge?
Brad Grantham Bread? Ellen three, shake is zero? No, I agree with Ellen. I mean, it's all valid points. I mean, Chris, you do bring up, you know, as Senior Counsel, you've got the circle of, you know, reporters that you use, and that's great. You know, I think one of the things PR people can do is actually make a focus on updating their lists a lot more than like twice a year or once a year, it needs to be quarterly, if not monthly, because of the consolidation that's going on. That being said, Elon still wins this point.
Ellen Chang Thank you.
Chris Shigas All right, Elon, PR fail number four,
Ellen Chang I use that a lot. So I can have new sources all the time and have fresh ideas and voices and improv that you have to write a subject line, you have to also pick a deadline before you can hit send, whenever I send out a profit net, always know that I'm going to get a ton of emails, and half of them are always about when's your deadline? And my answer always is, it's in the process, because I am Stein that you don't take the time to read it, right. And then sometimes when they answer the prophets, they don't use the keywords I'm using or anything similar to it, they'll use something completely off the charts and off the radar. So when reporters go back, and they're doing keyboard searches, like I don't know, like mortgage refinance, and you write something like buying a house, then I will literally never see your email, like I found emails Two years later, when I'm looking for sources for something else. And I don't understand the impetus of that at all, because you're not sending me an original picture responding to me, and reporters get a lot of emails, we try to read all of them or look through all of them. And when you write these goofy subject lines, because you want to be a hipster, whatever, then doesn't work. And I've told someone that don't do that, because I won't see it. And if I'm getting 200 emails, and sometimes I will look, I will type in different keywords to try to mitigate it just like people on eBay won't purposely misspell something so that people will find it, then I'll do that. But why not go with what I'm thinking? Because I'm probably using something pretty common, you know. So there are times where you can be too creative. Don't do it.
Chris Shigas Okay, here's my defense of the PR person. So there's two issues. The first issue is asking you for a deadline when it's already in the profit. The second issue is about changing the subject line, which makes it difficult for you to see that it's a response. So here's my defense on the first one. While reporters all want to educate PR people about how busy they are. One thing that a lot of people don't appreciate is all of the stuff coming at a PR person. And maybe this day, on this hour, on this week, this PR person had a client yelling at them. And then because the client was angry, had his boss yelling at them. And maybe his wife yelling at him and his dog bit him all of these things going wrong. And all he did was ask someone a simple question and got run over like a steamroller because he asked you for your deadline. That's number one. Number two,
Ellen Chang Can I have a rebuttal?
Brad Grantham Okay, yes, please rebut.
Ellen Chang So, don't have that much time. And if I'm going to write you an email, don't waste my time. And I want to be pen pals with you. Because do your job, read the prof net. And they always seem to find the deadline. As soon as I tell them read the profit net, or I tell them it's in the profit net. So and one thing that would help them is to use all the software themselves. And why would that create something where there's no deadline? Okay, so common sense.
Chris Shigas Now to address the second part of this issue. And that is the changing of the subject line, it makes it more difficult for you to understand that they're actually answering your profit query, this PR person is trying to put in the effort. I understand that in your inbox, it made it more difficult. So it'd be a best practice yet at the same time. Here's somebody working to be creative, working to be original working to show you that they are going to give you the best of their mindset that they are not nailing this in they are really all in for you to give you the best story possible.
Brad Grantham Well, I appreciate your defense. Today, Mr. Shigas, that may have been your most outreaching. outlandish one so far. Because Elon, hit it on the head, do your job. I mean, she and all the other reporters out there right now have more deadlines, and more emails and more stuff going on the most PR professionals can imagine. That's just reality it Ellen, how many emails do you have in your inbox right now?
Ellen Chang Yeah, I'm kinda scared to login. I know that. Like, I'm getting a lot of Twitter responses. So you get, you know, a couple of hundred easily.
Brad Grantham Yeah. And so on an average week, you might receive what 2000 emails maybe more? Sure. Yeah. So again, I will side with Elon. Because if you do your job in the first place, and you can read directions in the profit, we wouldn't have these problems. So Elon for Shigas. Zero.
Chris Shigas Well, Ellen, I want to thank you so much for being on PR court today, this special edition of PR Wars. And thanks so much, and I hope you'll be back on.
Ellen Chang I love that was really fun. I can talk about this all day.
Chris Shigas Awesome. Thank you so much. You can listen to a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR Wars crew. I want to thank Ellen Chang, freelance journalist for USA today and US News and World Report among others. Do me a favor this week. Remember that journalists are your customers, read their stories work to make their job easier. And don't forget to let them know that you appreciate the final result. Now go get 'em!
Today on PR Wars, we'll talk with one of the media intelligence giants, Meltwater. Cody Konschak is the Managing Director of Client Success at Meltwater. Learn how to make your PR measurement reports better.
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Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars. Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas!
Chris Shigas Hey, I'm Chris Shigas and you're listening to PR Wars. The inventor of modern business management, Peter Drucker said, "If you can't measure it, you can't improve it." Well, I'll take that one step further. "If you don't measure it, did it really happen at all?" The good news is there are more tools than ever to help you measure public relations. Names like Cision, Muckrack, Unicepta, Burrelles, Critical Mention… Today on PR Wars, We'll talk with one of the media intelligence giants. Meltwater has more than 30,000 companies on board. And tracking has come a long way from when we used to use scissors to cut out articles out of the newspaper and measure column inches. Well, Cody Konschak is the Managing Director of Client Success at Meltwater. We'll talk with Cody today about how to make your measurement reports better. But first, I'd like to introduce the cohost of PR Wars and fellow communications town crier, Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham I don't even know how to respond to that. Town crier? What am I Paul Revere? Regardless, you know, I think you hit it on the head, measurement is something we're all looking for. It's like the holy grail, although I don't know if you'll get tons of riches and have eternal life after that. But let's, let's jump into it.
Chris Shigas Thank you, Brad. Hey, Cody, thanks for joining PR wars today.
Cody Konschak Thanks, Chris. Happy to be on.
Chris Shigas One of the most difficult things to do is to accurately measure the value public relations brings to a company or an organization. Each campaign… I know for your clients is different and different clients have different objectives… but what are some of your favorite measurements? And what does a good measurement report look like?
Cody Konschak Yeah, I think that's a great question, Chris. To start off with. As you know, I work for Meltwater. So we deal with quite a few different types of clients in varying verticals, that all have different needs, and are trying to figure out how to navigate what you just talked about. And really, at the end of the day, that's our goal, at meltwater is helping, both marketing, marketing and communications professionals put value on the efforts that they're doing on a day to day basis, right? their teams are sending out press releases, they're scheduling social campaigns, there's quite a bit that they're doing putting on press events and events in general. And how do you really put an end value on that, and communicate that back internally to be able to say, hey, look, these are all of the great things that marketing communications has been doing to justify, you know, what we're spending or what we are doing on a day to day basis. So I think looking at from a metric standpoint, the types of metrics that are my favorites, when it comes to talking with clients, I think, number one, the I think this isn't going anywhere is traditional media exposure. And what I mean by that is really the the number of placements that an organization is getting based on their outbound efforts. So there are a couple of different ways to look out of it, you of course, you can look at overall mentions, so take a company looking at any any mention of their name, period. But I think there's a lot more value in taking a look at, okay, these are the press releases that I sent out. These are the social media campaigns, these are the social posts that we've scheduled. And then here is all of the content that we actually generated because of those efforts. and applying that back to a report having that highlighted in a report and then being able to see kind of some of your top tier coverage that you're getting out of that.
Chris Shigas And lots of times an executive will look at a report and they'll say they need context. Is this good? Is this bad? I don't know? I mean, one way to provide context is to do year-over-year or quarter-over-quarter… or benchmarking against competitors. Have you seen a lot of success in providing that context?
Cody Konschak Yes, so I would say that's the majority of what our clients do is when it comes to being able to see, okay, is this working? What we do is then do those year over year analysis, we take a look at, okay, what was our coverage as a company during this period in time compared to the previous period in time. And then also taking a look at competitors if that if that's something that they care about competitor information, and also referencing that back to a previous period in time. The reason why that's so important is because that's how you're going to measure whether we've increased and, you know, positive coverage, whether we've increased a negative coverage as well, which brings in a whole nother metric here that I really like, which is sentiment analysis. So this is how this is how companies can then take that information and apply it back to maybe some of their own internal data like revenue, you know, if you're take a b2c company, they can easily apply it back to sales, right? When are busy periods? When are we selling a lot? When are we not selling a lot and overlaying that type of data to be able to say, Okay, this is this is correlating here, we actually have a correlation between what our marketing communication is team teams are doing throughout all of their different outbound efforts, and actual money that we're bringing in, there has to be No, there has to be a reason for that there has to be a connection.
Brad Grantham One of the words that can make some people cringe, and siphon agency is the word impressions. Some people are uneasy with those huge numbers. So I recently placed a hidden Forbes, the circulation for Forbes is 98 million, or whatever it is today. However, Forbes puts a web counter on it stories and this one had 1500 views. So that's a big discrepancy, right? So how do you use impressions in your reporting, without being disingenuous or potentially misleading?
Cody Konschak Another really, really great question. I think you're right, I think a lot of companies are whereas, whereas in the past, they focused on the word impression or the metric reach, and their understanding of it is the reach on this is 98 million. That means 98 million people have seen this article we really try to educate our clients on really isn't an exact science that I would say a lot of marketing communications is not an exact science. reach an RN is based on monthly unique visitors to a publication's website. Right. So what that means is you have the potential of 98 million people seeing that article. Now. Any any any person is going to look at that and say, okay, most likely, 98 million people have not seen that. That being said, I do want to say that we've recognized that successful media placement is different. It's like a different definition for each client. So is it high circulation? Or is it total views in? Or is it something like completely different? Many, like I said, many of the metrics are estimations. Since Media Access is unique for every organization. That's really what we try to delve into hot water with our clients. So like PR is not about dominating like the real estate, it's more about getting your message across effectively. So what we try to do is help our clients quantify the earth, the impact of that earned media using metrics that are more tailored for that particular business. This is why we really tried to get to the heart of more customized metrics, right, a custom combination of impressions, maybe views. This is where we get into things like brand title mentions, or CEO mentions, competitor references and create more of a custom view so that you're not just relying on the estimations. You can also dive into what's what's customized specifically for you and create more value out of that. We mentioned earlier that people have different objectives with measurement.
Chris Shigas A big part of that is who's reading the report… and why are you creating the report to begin with, right? An agency might create a report because they want to show their clients that they're providing ROI for the dollar spent myself as a corporate comms person, if I'm creating a report for a comms team, I really want to track how well did this campaign work? How did that campaign work, but I also have to kind of report up to CEO level executive level with these reports that they need to be simplified. They need to provide an executive with an easy to understand glance, executive summary of what's going on with comms. Do you have any suggestions for how to take that data and simplify it? Kind of like, if I had a one page dashboard? What kinds of things should a PR executive show to their CEO about what the comms teams doing with the measurement report?
Cody Konschak Yeah, we've seen a huge transition or refocus on consolidating all of that data. I think, in the past, a lot of clients have had these 10, 15, 20 page media reports diving into every single metric that you possibly can, and injure just inundated with information. And any I mean, what we always tell our PR and comms folks that we speak with is that you're well versed in this information. But any executive, any C level executive is going to be looking at the report going, What does any of this mean? Why am I reading this? How is this relevant to me? How is this relevant to our revenue? How is this relevant to growing our business or moving it forward? So what we have been doing recently, and where we've seen the trend move into Are you mentioned it like a one page, like a one, a one page dashboard, we've actually been doing, we actually have a professional services team at meltwater who have been really focused on identifying types of clients who care about seeing this high level information and breaking it down into two page reports. And these two pages, like, like you just mentioned, are kept extremely high level high level metrics. So you'll you'll most likely see a media exposure chart. So I mentioned this, before, that media exposure is not going anywhere, this is still one of the most important metrics you're gonna have is what you can see is you can see spikes in coverage. But then you're also able to highlight what is accounting for that spiking coverage, right? That's what your executive wants to see what is the actual content that is moving the needle? And then what does that mean for the business? Right, so then, that's where the custom scoring comes in understanding more about the customized metrics for your company. That's where we dive into the actual efforts that the team has been going through. Have you been? You mentioned, the Forbes placement? Have you been trying to get that placement in Forbes? And did you get it? Let's highlight that.
Chris Shigas For a lot of executives, they love seeing the competitor analysis, right? They want to know how they're doing compared to the other, the other guys,
Brad Grantham They want to kick a little, you know what. They want to make sure they're still on top. But yeah, but to that, but to that point, a lot of CEOs and executives don't understand necessarily how PR works. And even to some extent how marketing works, and what their teams are actually doing day to day and what have you. So you bring in social media, and you try to bring a report to them. And they're like, Okay, this is, this is a foreign language to me, they only many CEOs only understand follower growth. Yet so many social media managers prefer engagement. So is there a correct way to get an accurate picture of your social performance in a way that your CEO would understand?
Cody Konschak Yes. So social is is still one of those things that it's looked at, as this big unknown, right? A lot of our clients are still trying to figure out and how to navigate the metrics that they're getting from social media, and really what's going to move the needle there, right, we've spent so much trying to figure out PR now we're trying to figure out social media, but I think it's a little bit of everything. Honestly, I think it's keeping it high level and being able to see it relate the engagement metrics back to your follower metrics, How have your How have your follower counts increased over time, as you guys have been scheduling posts out of you, as you've been working with social media influencers and and scheduling social campaigns and using hashtags to get people's attention. Ideally, as you're doing those types of things, you should see that follower account grow. But if you're seeing that follower account grow, but then you're also not seeing, like the likes and the replies on your post. Is it resonating back with your audience, too? Or is it a lot of wasted effort?
Chris Shigas Making a measurement report, your report is only as good as the data that goes into it. So Cody, can you talk about some easy steps that someone can take if they're not an expert at these Boolean search terms to get the data?
Cody Konschak Yes, of course, this is really big for both myself and my company. Because what we do is we utilize Boolean search logic, at the heart of what we do is the most basic functionality that we have. And we've what we've always had is searching utilizing Boolean functionality. For a lot of people out there, they haven't utilized Boolean or they haven't learned it, or it's been a number of years since they've done it. So they're not they're not experts in it. So I think there are a couple of ways to to approach Boolean logic, I think first and foremost, you need to put together three different lists, I would say two of them, you can put together pretty much right away the third list, you'll you'll figure out as you're building your searches out and looking at the content. The first list are like your hats, like the words, the keywords, the topics, the competitors, anything that you're wanting to know about. Those are the words that have to show up in the articles.
Chris Shigas Right. Many people stop there.
Cody Konschak Exactly. They stopped there and And they build out these searches. And then, you know, we've worked with companies that have very, very generic names. And they're getting, you know, missed missed hit or not missing hits, but they are, they're getting irrelevant content left and right in their, in their content as well. And then instead of going through that content and taking the extra time to just sort out that that information there, then building the other reports that aren't exactly accurate, right, which would don't want. So then comes the next step of identifying. Let's say you, let's go with the idea of one of these more broad, broadly named clients, generic names to clients, they're going to need to come up with like key indicator words of maybe services that they offer technology that they sell into the industry that they are in, and tie that back in a second list to those original words, because that's where you're going to find the more relevant content when you're looking at the company name, and then maybe a list of words that could potentially tie back to that actual relevant hit. And that's typically how we build the search itself. Now, the third step comes into the the irrelevant content, no matter how perfect, you seem to get your search, there is always going to be, you know, let's say stock information, financials, you know, content that you really don't want in an executive Executive Report that you're sending out.
Chris Shigas Yeah, when you search for PR wars, you can get wars from Puerto Rico.
Cody Konschak Yeah, exactly. So how does that help you out with that? Was that helpful for you? You know, right. You have to think that way. And, and I think sometimes, even with a tool, like meltwater, as great as it is, as it is to plug in a word and get thousands of hits, you still have to do your due diligence to build out a quality search to make sure that the content that's coming in is right for you.
Brad Grantham We're going to close out this episode with this question. If you can answer it, you're going to be a very rich man. What do you think is in the future for measurement? And are there any new metrics that Meltwater is working on right now that may be unveiled in a short time?
Cody Konschak Yeah, I love this question. I think this is really exciting for for both myself and and the company that I represent meltwater. Because we are so focused on innovation and what comes next. That's that's how we've been since we started the company. That's how we were founded. I think, when we were initially founded, a lot of most companies were still clipping articles from, from newspapers and, you know, photocopying them and sending them out to clients, right. For us, I think it's a great lead into like the future of media measurement. Since we are so focused beyond this traditional news media, and so much so that we're investing in data science and AI technologies, we've acquired over eight companies in the past couple of years. Some that are that have the ability to crawl different types of datasets, we've acquired an AI technology so that our system becomes smarter, it recognizes the type of content that you're actually wanting to see, and then works to pull in more of that type of information. Whether you're actively searching for that or not, that's our end goal. And we're now able to crawl things like social media, we can crawl podcasts, we can crawl forums, reviews, we're looking for stock prices, survey data, there's so much that we're that we are focused on and even so much that we're 15% of our annual revenue is actually is set aside for research and development. So our priority now is to ensure our clients have that that single source of truth, for aligning all of these metrics, you know, capturing the robust media content from not just within small subset, but also global markets. And standardizing all of those metrics through custom scoring or credibility. We have a lot of people focused on the quality of the hit now thought leadership, as well as like predictive modeling. Right? Everyone wants to know what's coming next. So we're looking at things like trending themes, trending analysis, we're now able to analyze social content down to like the tweet, that's something came out I worked with the arm if you remember this, but the the plastic straw debacle that kind of started the whole conversation about plastics. Back in 2018, somebody had posted about plastic straws, and there was a lot of content content coming out about how it was causing issues in our oceans. And our client was is a single use plastic maker. And they completely missed that opportunity to address those conversations. They were like, two, two months behind, and there are a very large organization. So now we were able to isolate the exact wheat that started that entire conversation, right that entire movement. Imagine if they would have been able to see that right then and then the slow movement of the that trend, that trend that we see growing up and being able to Identify that sooner. That's that's so much better for our clients more from a crisis standpoint, from a revenue standpoint. I mean, there's a lot of power in that.
Chris Shigas Great. Thank you so much for joining us on PR wars today, Cody.
Cody Konschak Thanks, guys. I really appreciate like I said the opportunity to come on here and, and have this conversation you guys.
Chris Shigas You can tune into a new episode of PR wars every Sunday night at 8pm. On behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars team, I want to thank Cody Konschak with Meltwater for joining us today and do me a favor when you build your next tracking report. Don't give your executives pages of metrics. Give them context, create a snapshot that compares your results to your historical numbers or to your competitors. And how did your hard work, move that needle? Now go get 'em!
PR Wars Podcast: The golden placement
Sep 14, 2020
The Associated Press is the gold standard for journalism. For many of us in public relations, a great hit in the AP can not only mean success for your company, it could mean success for your career. On today's PR Wars podcast, we talk with Skip Foreman, Mid-Atlantic Breaking News Staffer at the Associated Press. Learn how to construct your press release to be more newsworthy.
Listen to PR Wars on:
“We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “We want the truth.” “I have news for everybody. Get over it.”
Announcer It’s time. Welcome to PR Wars. Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas!
Chris Shigas Welcome to the show. I'm Chris Shigas. And you're listening to PR Wars. The Associated Press is the gold standard for journalism. For many of us in public relations, a great hit in the AP can not only mean success for your company, it could mean success for your career. The Associated Press is in more than 15,000 news outlets worldwide. Now hear me out on the impact of this. More than half of the world's population sees AP journalism every day. In the United States, the AP has counted the vote in national, state, and local elections since 1848. The AP Stylebook is the standard for how public relations professionals write. And not only has the AP won 54 Pulitzer prizes, but Associated Press photographers have captured many of the most iconic images in American history. Our guest on the show today is Skip Foreman and he's been with the Associated Press for more than four decades. He covers breaking news for the Mid Atlantic region. When he began his career pack in 1979… just think about it… the cost of a new Toyota Corolla just over $3,600. He was a journalist through the terms of seven US presidents. And his wisdom is a benefit to PR pros, because he has had a front row seat in the evolution of news, along with the many changes to the world. But before we get to Skip, I'd like to introduce the PR Wars co host and fellow communications paragon, Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham Thanks, Chris. I've known Skip for close to 20 years. I consider him to be one of the fairest and best journalists I know. So very much looking forward to this episode, so why don't we just Skip to it.
Chris Shigas Thanks, Brad. Hey, Skip Foreman thanks for joining us. I appreciate you being here on PR Wars.
Skip Foreman Thank you.
Chris Shigas Let's start you are a long timer with the Associated Press back from when you started in 1979. How has news gathering and the wire service changed over time until today,
Skip Foreman I can bring you some some vivid examples.
When I started the AP, we, our bureau did not have a television. We did not know between the six and 11 O'Clock News and even if there was a six and 11. We had no idea. When I started in 1979. The local the News and Observer of Raleigh the local paper had separate editions. We've always waited for the 10:30 edition so we could get the most news out before midnight. So we could bolster our report the day when I started in 1979. transmitting a picture was an eight minute process by landline by phone line, and you didn't know how the picture looked until it came out of the receiving device, our printer as it were. And if there's any sort of noise in the line or any disruption, you'd have to start the whole process over again. So it was really convoluted. Plus you had to find the space between other people trying to transmit to get your picture out. Now you're looking at today, the Raleigh bureau have five TVs. You can see the news and observer online and grab news read news any time of the day or night and I can send a picture from my phone. And it gets to the destination almost immediately. If the immediacy is what's different now we aren't locked into a point where we're having to wait for somebody to report from a scene. You know, put a dime in a phone and call, we don't have to wait for somebody to come back from an assignment. That sort of thing. Everything is now you can write it from where you sit. And that makes a huge, huge transition over time and I've watched it in varying stages from type writing and sending something by a fax machine, or what we used to be called a tele copier so and back. Then, you had these 40 pound portable computers that use couplers. So if you're filing from a basketball game and there was any crowd noise Your file was basically ruined. We finally got computers that didn't go through external noise that made filing a little simpler. And now we're at the point where you can file a story on almost any device that you possess or have been assigned to. It's the change is just remarkable. And it's just been interesting to me to watch it over 40 years time.
Brad Grantham Skip, you know, the average American looks at his phone, his or her phone over 92 times a day, according to report from late last year. And the news? Well, obviously, it's a lot more than that. We're probably looking at our phones 100 500 times a day, but we are deluged from the moment we get up in the morning, to the moment we lay our head down to sleep in the evening. How has social media made your job better, and also worse? What's been the most challenging for you?
Skip Foreman I would I would lean to the side of better whereas you would have to contact say a law enforcement group or or some sort of entity to get information on a certain breaking news story or spot news story. Now we get tweets. We get Facebook posts, we get live streams. We get things that make the job easier because the information we're seeking is right there. police stations police departments now use Twitter to put out running information on breaking events. One case in point was the shootings at UNC Charlotte when the county emergency agency kept updating to the point where it told us there were casualties on campus. years ago. That wouldn't have been an option. We would have had to wait for somebody to step before us and tell us as much before UNCC police in Charlotte Mecklenburg police held their news conference that night. We already knew Those two young kids we're dead. That helps our members have an idea of what's coming, or what else is coming as it were. And what we already know, if there's a downside, and we probably avoid this is that too many people trying to feed in information that they don't have verified, we very rarely ever run into that, at least from my perspective, because they're not the people I rely on. I can go to a sheriff's department, Facebook page, and they will have a release on a major arrest a major crime, I can go to Twitter. And for example, I cover Maryland, the Maryland law enforcement agencies, some of the bigger ones actually live stream their news conferences. So that makes a huge difference in learning what you need to learn without being in place to hear it and not having to wait for the local TV station or the local newspaper to run something out. You're hearing it as they hear it and you're able to run As they write it, so it makes, it makes a huge difference. They really know from my work, no downsides to social media, except for people who are on the periphery maybe saying things that they haven't verified, an info only heard from rumor and hearsay and second and third hands, so we just stay away from them.
Chris Shigas So let's talk a little bit about public relations. The Associated Press is the Golden child of hits for a public relations professional, right. If we have our client or our company has a soundbite in the Associated Press, it has the potential to be in every media outlet in the United States, as well as the world. Now there's this love hate relationship between PR and journalists. On the PR side, it feels that if I have a good news story, I can't get a reporter on the phone. And if I have a bad news story, I can't get one off the phone. Now I'm sure from the journalists side, it looks like it's not that you don't like public relations pitches, you let our story ideas you'd like good story ideas that you can use. The problem comes when you're getting too many bad story ideas, right? As you see good story ideas and bad story ideas. What are you really looking for?
Skip Foreman I got a pitch. When I was in Charlotte, which was a very, very good pitch. It's one of the best pitches I've ever seen. It was about this person who started a car service for cancer, cancer patients who needed treatment. It was an awesome pitch. I mean, it wasn't oversold. It simply described what he did. And it offered and offered an example of the people he helped. And it was perfect. It just told me what I needed to know. And it's sort of like goaded me to do the story,
Chris Shigas and how long was it?
Skip Foreman a printed page, maybe two, but it wasn't. It wasn't drawn out. It was the presentation, and then the example. And it was just perfect. It was great because it told me what I needed to know. And it basically sold itself. It didn't take a lot of fluff. It didn't take a great deal of introduction. It didn't need it, because the story was so compelling. You just felt like, oh, man, this guy's pretty cool. And he's got clients and it's working. Boom, we've got the story. I mean,
Chris Shigas As you saw the email, you could glance at it and really kind of tell Okay, I get what's going on here. Right?
Skip Foreman Completely. And, and it just, it was great stuff. And, ultimately, I guess, in their transmission of that email. I saw the story on CBS. CBS Evening News ran it, so it was like, Okay, good. They that whoever did that had a great pitch, and it paid off. So it was just it was a wonderful thing for them. And, and it to me, it was just a textbook case of how you present a story that you want to be told. They didn't get in the way they didn't call every day or two, or anything like that. They made sure I had it in Galloway. And that was fine that That to me was just an ideal pitch. I thoroughly enjoyed that. I liked it. And I remember it every time I think of the other things I get going.
Chris Shigas Brad, do you want to talk about the other things
Brad Grantham I find the best pitches, at least from from our end is to basically sell it in a paragraph now because of our attention spans, right? Because you're getting hit all the times with emails, we're getting it if I can grab you in five to 10 seconds off the top right I'm not gonna have any chance You know you were getting any further. So how many emails scamp Do you get on average a day? And can you tell us, you know, some recent recent examples of some pitches that you got? That could have been made a lot better?
Skip Foreman Sometimes it's pitch itself for some time. It almost never gets you in the door. And I say that from from the perspective of, I'm not sure sometimes there are people who realize what it is we do we be in the AP. Got one right here, for example, elevate your career when the economy push, pause and Marsha gay working folks, some time for introspection. Many wondered, am I really where I want to be? Well, that's fine in one perspective, but at the same time, you have people who are out of work altogether. It's not like they want to go look for something new. They just want to go look, because they don't have anything old or new. I get that but there's a part of me that says we might offend people who are struggling to keep it They're worried they might get laid off, they may not get back. How do you push this idea in a way that's palatable to everybody? I mean, if there's a person who doesn't have a job, and they start thinking, maybe I need to do something else, that's a thought, but the person who is working at home and thinking, Hmm, I could do home decor, because they're been looking around their house for like weeks on end, I may see five to six of these a day, which in a grand scheme isn't that many. But you have to look at what we're looking at overall, in this timeframe. I'm getting multiple political emails, I'm getting multiple regular news emails, and then just the administrative stuff that comes in. So there are a lot of emails in the span of a day. And even if you get to look at a pitch, I can't guarantee you that I'm going to get back to you or I can't guarantee that That is a pitch I can pursue. The people who make the pitch usually follow up with a phone call saying we sent you something. Did you get it? Well, I have to stop at that point. Because I'm not prone to lie to them and say, Yeah, I got it. Thank you. But they just gave you a task,
Chris Shigas right? Yeah,
Skip Foreman yeah, they just gave me an additional mission to perform on their behalf. And I'm going, might as well look. So you go back through the thing, and you finally find it. And you have to say, and if the conversation goes, accordingly, you say, I appreciate it. We'll take a look at it. Thank you. And I will take a look at it. But it's not promising that I'm going to be able to follow through with it and it's not so much the pitch. It's the time involved. We in every news outlet right now. Their plates are breaking, because they're full. There's a lot of stuff going on right now. I mean, between 100 Based on police brutality and injustice, the election year, virus Yeah, yeah. to, to to wedge in, in my where I want to be in my career. That's a tough sell. That's a very tough sell. And if you if you can do it, God bless you.
Chris Shigas Do you think it would be a better pitch if they tied it into a current news angle, whether it was, you know, laid off from because of Coronavirus and make a career change or do you think the tie ins work better?
Skip Foreman But yeah, and here's the thing. I mean, we can always talk to an expert. We all talk to experts, we all pitch experts in a certain PR release. But what about the person who's directly impacted and if that was a point that came up with the first gig example I brought you not only did I have the guy doing the transporting of cancer patients, they had a cancer patient who talked about what it was like to have the service that goes a long way in getting your story down the road. Because while we don't want to copy the release verbatim, at least we have a name we can go by, in fact, two names and we can find other people we find out where that person is, and we we track them down. One, you have a story two, you have a photo three, you have video. And at that point, there it is brilliant with the pitch like the one I just brought you, I have a person who's an expert, but I get a headshot, I get a thumbnail. And that's, that's different. I mean, it's one thing to read. It's one of those things that that might show up in the section C or D of the newspaper on Sunday, but it takes a lot to get that story to pull the reader's attention.
Brad Grantham I think Given like the way that you broke that down, you know, you've got to have that human element to it, right? So it's impacting somebody whether, you know, you've got to have that full picture. And again, if anybody were to watch their local newscast, or read the AP or newspaper, you're going to have those elements in there. It has to be because you've got to drive it home to your audience. Would it be safe to say that if you have pitched the AP or a local news outlet or any type of media outlet, if you don't hear back from that reporter within 24 to 36 hours, that it's probably not going to happen? But that'd be fair to say if you didn't serve it up? Or do you have an evergreen file that you kind of keep some stories in potentially
Skip Foreman two pronged approach here dependent, it depends on the pitch. I would say that there is a 36 hour rule that if you don't hear from us or the outlet you contacted it's it's not going to get anywhere at the same time when December comes in. Trying to produce content for those days when it's real lean. These are the types of things that if properly produced, pitched and presented, it's something we could pursue for a quick story, something that would capture a reader's attention on after they've gone shopping at the mall or on oil online, because who knows if we'd be able to go a mall in December, there's always an opportunity that something you pitch can be used. I would say the odds increase the later you get into the year because we're all looking for something to write. That isn't the daily stuff. All PR stories have the potential to be something different. You just have to find that niche and hope you hit that spot that says, hey, this might be pretty good.
Chris Shigas There was an interesting insight I got from a reporter with the Raleigh News and Observer, an insight about public relations people and this reporter in particular had a couple of PR people who kind of got angry over the phone about a story. Or maybe they were overly aggressive in terms of number of phone calls or demanding questions in advance those kinds of things. And his observation was, I wonder what kind of stress people that this person reports to are putting him under being aware that maybe this wasn't coming from the PR person themselves, but from the stress of their client or from the company that they serve when you're encountering PR people and you're talking to them? Are you aware? Or are your colleagues aware kind of, you know, where the public relations people are coming from and what they're trying to do and their role in this whole news gathering thing?
Skip Foreman Yeah, I think I can count on one hand, the number of times I've gotten multiple calls from PR people who've, like, Well, can you do anything with it? Can you do anything with it? Can you mean but it's not constant, but you have to To know that the person making the pitch is probably under some sort of pressure to get this imprint somehow, and they're figuring we're the people who can do that. That's all well and good, but sometimes it's not necessarily the pitch. It's just the timing. And the volume that head of it. If we've, if we can pull it off, we'll do it. I mean, and they're, they're going to be some days this fall and winter are leading into the holidays that you're looking at one of these and go, you know, this isn't a bad idea. It's just awfully difficult right now to say, Okay, I'll we'll do this. I mean, oh, yeah. The COVID-19 Report for the states coming out today or Yeah. Or there's a demonstration in Greensburg. today. It's like it's,
Chris Shigas it's the difference between slow news day and a fast news day. I had an experience when I was an editor for a local TV station, and the producer was having me edit video on a feature of flooding in China. And I was thinking to myself flooding in China. What? Why would anyone you know, in North Carolina care about flooding in China, and I just remember being upset, I had to cut this video. Then I became a producer. And it was a very slow news day, and they're on the feed came flooding in China. And I was like, well, maybe there's good video. So you're right on a slow news day, the right timing could be very important.
Skip Foreman Yeah, if you just got an email saying we're looking for evergreens that will hold up through the holidays and somebody sends you that PR pitch that may happen to tick off the right boxes. You make the phone call, they call you, or you call them saying hey, this is a pretty good idea. Who do I talk to? Where do I meet him, so forth. There's always a possibility but I think odds increase with a point in the year when you really want Do them if summer maybe because in some cases there's the legislators meeting no important gatherings going on to cloud the view. But that was before now. And now it's just difficult to wedge stuff in. But like I said, there's always a point. If there's there's opening in the clouds you take it.
Brad Grantham Of course for listeners the answer to any trivia question going forward, asking about a specific year will always be 2020. No matter what
Skip Foreman you're in for now, Henceforth, and forevermore and yes, randomly What happened? 2020.
Chris Shigas Skip, when you look at the lasting relationships you have with a PR person, maybe they represent someone very important that you need as a source. Maybe they help you out when you have a need, even if it's not their company. Is there a common theme to some of those relationships that you have with PR people that have just proved to be people beneficial for you over the years.
Skip Foreman The biggest thing about a relationship with a PR person is that they know what you do. They are keenly aware of how the AP works. They don't beat you over the head with an idea. They'll present it and move on and do what they need to do. To get you the information you need for a story. One of the great PR people I met was actually a government person for the state of North Carolina. One day he walked into the AP Bureau in downtown Raleigh said I've got a release for he hold it up, balled it up through the trash can. He said it's no good.
Chris Shigas You don't even want it.
Skip Foreman And those are the type of guys you love, because they're the type of people who understand what you can use. They don't expect you to use everything they say and they'll give you a little nudge about something but their feelings are hurt if you don't run it and You won't hear from him again, if it doesn't happen. I mean, I think the relationship is the key. And if you've got a good one and you've got a good PR person who knows how you work, they'll work with you. Regardless. They'll give you what you need, and they won't burden you with what you don't.
Chris Shigas Great. Thank you so much for joining us today. Skip. I appreciate I enjoyed it. Thank you guys. You can tune into a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. On behalf of Brad Grantham, and the entire PR wars nation. I want to thank skip Foreman with the Associated Press and do me a favor this week. In addition to your company expert, think about the person that your product or service helps. How can you put this person's story into your press release? Now go get 'em!
Imagine being one of the first corporate communicators to prepare messaging for a historic pandemic. I mean... ground zero… the tip of the spear… having a manufacturing facility in Wuhan, China and creating a new playbook for its factories around the world. Today on the PR Wars podcast, Khaner Walker recounts the first days of the pandemic as Global Director of Internal and Executive Communications for computer giant Lenovo.
Listen to PR Wars on:
"We want the truth." "We want the truth." "We want the truth." "I have news for everybody. Get over it."
Announcer It's time. Welcome to PR Wars. Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Welcome to PR wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Imagine being one of the first corporate communicators to prepare messaging for a historic pandemic. I mean, Ground Zero… tip of the spear, having a manufacturing facility in Wu Han China, and then preparing your factories around the world. Months before the United States was dealing with covid 19 global companies, especially ones headquartered in China were opening their eyes to a new reality. Khaner Walker was the Global Director of Internal and Executive Communications for computer giant Lenovo. He's currently the Senior Director of Communications at Syneos Health. But before we welcome Khaner to the show, I want to introduce my co host and fellow communications soothsayer, Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham You always get me with these intros. Chris, how am I supposed to respond to that? The only thing I can foresee today is that this is going to be one of our best shows we've had so far, and I'm looking forward to it.
Chris Shigas Thanks so much, Brad. Hey, Khaner. Thanks for joining Brad and me. Working for a Chinese company like Lenovo in the United States. You're a communications executive. And how did you realize that okay, this virus, it's going to be big, and it's going to impact our business.
Khaner Walker Sure. So I was working at Lenovo for the past 10 years have recently left in early. Well, I recently began a new position in early July with another company. But looking back, it really was when we saw our global manufacturing facilities starting to close down, that just became kind of an eye opening moment. And there was a point in February where it looked like the virus was going to abate it looked like China had it literally under control, and it was going to stay within the country. And then we're just kind of fingers crossed, and then slowly a bunch of tier one events just started, we're canceling Mobile World Congress in Barcelona was canceled. A couple other events that were canceled that we're looking at later on in the spring. And then in March, as you know, as the rest of the world knows we all went home, right so as the virus really escalated throughout Europe and throughout the United States and in the rest of the Americas
It just became something where it almost felt that was a little bit of Groundhog Day because we had already worked a cycle of communications around it, as it exploded as it literally rampage throughout China. And then we kind of had to take that same playbook and transfer it throughout the rest of the world on a geo by geo or region by region basis. Looking back now, was there a specific date in your mind that you said, Oh, my God, this is gonna be a lot bigger than I think people think it is at the moment. If so, what was that timeframe? I you know, Brad, I can tell you the exact date. It was the Chinese New Year and it was a one day I believe is January 27. So everyone was more or less going home the weekend, you know, kind of Thursday, Friday or Friday, prior to the Chinese New Year actually starting. And then what as soon as that happened, everything in ohana went on lockdown. Again, that was the epicenter and the Chinese government very much said okay everyone inside Wu Han stay indoors for the next two weeks or longer. And that was just what I knew things were getting serious for us.
Brad Grantham So as that's happening, what is happening in the background and your comms role at that time with your teams? What's I mean, obviously, you can't go too far into the details. I get that but kind of walk us through when it's happening at that moment.
Khaner Walker Sure. This became a long string of what I call, "I don't know," answers. And because we're getting a lot of, you know, we're all in this business. We're getting a ton a ton of questions from media where we just don't know the answers. And I think they were looking at us with a little bit of a raised eye because we are one of the companies that had a larger presence who has 10,000 employees that have a manufacturing site. We assemble most of you know a lot of Motorola phones there along with other computers and tablets, right. And our response was, we don't know when we're going to be back online and operational. This is what we think is going to be a global pandemic. Uh, you know, fingers crossed, hopefully it's not, but it's definitely a pandemic within China. And I think that really kind of, you know, we saw an impact to the stock price we saw an impact, you know, elsewhere throughout just the the media that was swirling around just technology company as a whole. You saw the story really starting to percolate first as a global supply chain story. If you guys remember that, we are kind of calling it a supply shock ply story. And then it switched to something much else, right, that story almost flip flopped, it became a demand shock story, right? And as everyone you know, started kind of just hunkering down in place.
Chris Shigas Now, as you travel west, it was almost like Europe was several weeks behind China, the US was several weeks behind Europe. And here in the United States, we kind of had the luxury from a communication standpoint of seeing what other companies were doing and replicating some of those comms ideas and plans, but you are at the tip of the spear. You didn't have a playbook for this. So how do you evaluate you have all these stakeholders? You have the media, you have employees, you have customers, how are you prioritizing these audiences, when you didn't really know the full extent that this would take?
Khaner Walker You know, it's and I know we'll touch on this probably at a later date. But it was a situation honestly, where all of a sudden internal communications did flip with external. And because literally, the priority of the company was on it sounds trite, because we've heard it said 1000 times, if not more, but the priority did become our employees, it became about the safety and health and well being of employees. You know, Lenovo is a company of 60,000 plus people, most of whom are traveling around the world all the time last year alone. I mean, I can't even tell you the number of trips I made to China. I mean, it was it was a lot, right. And so it really was an instance where internal comms started taking the lead. It was just became a matrix, kind of cross collaborative group that was working with HR cybersecurity had a big part to play because we knew a lot of employees were going to start working remotely. It was bt as a whole as well, travel facilities, you know, all of a sudden real estate and comms became just tighter than normal, which was pretty interesting because it was all through the lens of health and safety. It was, you can't come into the office, we don't want you here, you know, that sort of thing. And really external became a little bit of the tail where external comms sort of drafting on the materials that we were developing internally among the company to employees. And that became some of the playbook message points and, you know, talking points that were starting to be used in our external stories.
Brad Grantham In a moment like that, how close are you working with the executive leadership team, to make sure you know, and in some scenarios, the lt might be a little separated or a little far away. In this instance, I would have to imagine you're working step in step with LT every step of the way from internal standpoint external standpoint. Yes. Can you walk us through that.
Khaner Walker As the virus broke out during Chinese New Year, that's the point in time where for those of you probably a lot of listeners aren't as familiar with the Chinese New Year as I am. So I take it for granted a little bit. So I'll backtrack during the Chinese New Year, a lot of employees leave the big cities in China and they go out to the countryside to visit their family connectivity in what's called tier one cities is pretty good, if not great, as soon as you get outside of those tier one cities, internet connection, 4g service, all the things we take for granted. Working with colleagues overseas immediately starts going downhill so a lot of our comms went straight to text messages. You know, texting my CEO texting my cmo, you know, those were kind of some fond memories of my Chinese is non existent their English is you know, on text is is tough to begin with. SoIt was one of those instances where we just became even more close than normal. Right? And really it was, I keep on thinking, I don't knows. But it was just all of us collectively working through so many I don't knows, right, our chief legal officer, our chief HR officer, everyone had just a lot of those questions that we had to figure out.
Brad Grantham What is there one channel that you're used? whether that was video, whether that was social, whether that was a newsletter format? Was there? Was there one piece of content or a channel that you're used during this that resonated more so than others? And if so, what was it?
Khaner Walker I think it was the internet. I know I had the data to back that up in terms of the traffic despite right, but it was our approach was, let's put all the comms there on the internet. So now it's just a repository. You know what the latest update is to employees in Beijing? You know, the latest update is to employees in Wu Han, you know, at least employee you know.dot.to Italy and all the office sites around the world. And I think employees really liked that. Because you could tell there's only 500 or so employees in a given office, but it has, you know, 10,000 opens, that means, you know, everyone else just wants to see kind of what's happening, right. And then you add in the office guidelines, the travel guidelines and safety guidelines, right. And all of a sudden, that just becomes the hub right for everything. And so really, it just came back to good old fashioned editing HTML, you know, at 1am in the morning, as the latest travel policy document was made ready.
Chris Shigas In any crisis, there's this fog of war. You rarely get to really know the whole picture as you're engaging in the communication during a hot crisis. As you look back now with perspective, is there anything maybe that you would have added to your communication plans or something where you think maybe could have used more focus?
Khaner Walker I would say connecting earlier With our IT teams probably would have helped a lot, right? It was a fortunate situation where most of the company was transitioning to Microsoft Teams to kind of some other key pieces of software adding VPN gateways, right. But I think really having a firm understanding of just what we what extra steps and precautions we should take, right, with employees now working remotely phishing, DDoS denial of service attacks, and all those sorts of things are all things that, you know, companies like Lenovo are subject to every single day, those risks they extrapolate it measurably as soon as you're outside of a firewall that you enjoy at an office, right kind of behind those closed company networks.
Chris Shigas One of the challenges in crisis like this as you have factory workers going back to work, you have the cloud of this crisis overhead and really comes has to play a role in showing not only your employees, but also In the communities that you have facilities in that you're a company that cares you care about their well being you care about their safety and their health. Tell me a little bit about about the role and overcomes played in communicating that concern.
Khaner Walker My approach as a leader, especially someone who oversaw the internal communications was always to humanize not the brand but humanize the company right? Even if it came from a generic Lenovo comms mailbox if Lenovo comms was a person what kind of person will we want that you know, this inbox to kind of meet right and, and really switching the tone to, again to people first the some of it was just in very blunt messaging in the sense of you cannot travel do not travel right now. We're putting a halt to all travel to keep you safe to keep your family safe and you know, dot, dot, dot and all that. So I think it was being very direct especially early on as it We're so much misinformation Do you wear a mask and mask on effective COVID is no more dangerous than the flu, all that stuff is happening around us February and we're still trying to make sense of it. And so a lot of employees are just kind of thinking this might be business as usual, and I'll go about my day. And then some other employees are just literally scared for their lives. We just kind of took the approach of Let's be direct, let's say what we know and what we don't know and what we're gonna do with it, what we know and what we don't know. Right.
Brad Grantham On top of COVID, you had a another crisis that has been kind of circling for the past couple of years in the political realm. And that is involving tariffs from certain political leaders who will go unnamed, but, you know, so you've got COVID. You've got that in the background and has been in the background at the same time. How did you as a comms team, work to kind of be transparent during the back and forth between the US and China? You know, all these talks are going on, nobody really knows what's going on. It's hard to be effective, effectively communicate something like that. What was your position? How did you guys position that internally and externally, as talks were going back and forth?
Khaner Walker Sure, I'd say some of the best work that team and I ever did will never see the light of day, right? Because our work was to keep us out of the story. And I think you guys, and your audience can relate to just how hard of a job that is, when the tendency is to Oh, well, the other biggest, largest Chinese company that we know of, and they're a technology company is Lenovo. Right? I'll go back to something that we all talk about, which is the brand's last reputation piggy bank. For years, we had made a concerted effort to put as many coins in that piggy bank as possible under the under this global approach, right. And when you even open up the parkcrest it kind of Chinese company my eyebrows did a little IRQ because we call ourselves you know when other calls themselves a global company because they truly are. It's it's you know, it's not 5050 but it's it's equal parts legend PC in China and equal parts IBM PC kind of rest of world right? And from that past 15 years of marriage, right, they truly have become a very global, very decentralized company. You just see the difference, right? I've been to Huawei offices and other countries in Brazil, in Spain, where you walk in and it's all Chinese, whereas our offices in Brazil are 100% Brazilian, you know, office in Spain are 100% Spanish, that inherent major it's kind of a murky response to your question, that inherent culture of the company in the of the two companies right, I think lends a lot of credence to our ability to stay out of that story. Because it wasn't this was kind of a china us, you know, story. We had a little Bit of a luxury, you know, maybe the piggy bank got a little bit depleted because of that. But we had a little bit of a luxury to say this is global or global. Yes, we're gonna be impacted. We don't like it. But, you know, we stand by whatever the laws and tariffs are,
Chris Shigas As we move past this crisis, hopefully someday, every corporate communications team, every agency, they've had on some level have been affected by this and that have had to relook at their function and how it handles itself in this crisis. I'm a hopeful person. And I think on some level, communications teams will be better coming out of this, what do you think maybe some of the lasting effects will be of how communication has changed. Now that we kind of collectively went through this as an industry.
Khaner Walker I think a lot more focus will be paid on. The stories employees are sharing individually, right. I'm an assembly line worker for Amazon. And we haven't slept in days, you know, kind of stories out there right now. COVID is only going to accelerate the shift from earn to own media channels, honestly, and especially as governments vacate some of this role as the media itself kind of vacate some of this role as well, you'll just get to see more of a reliance to go straight to the company in terms of, hey, what's the update on my on my phone? Because I know there's a supply chain issue overseas in China within the top 10 tweets, right, you know, of that company. It's that news is gonna be there, right. And there's no reason for the company in today's day and age to mislead you about any of that information. So I think you'll continue to see that trend. I do think internal communications teams are being looked at at an entirely different light. You're now seeing the shift, even just the nomenclature, from internal comms to employee engagement, employee advocacy, right? I think social is only going to be filtered out teams are going to take over social right and not saying that social media Gotta be any less important, I think it's gonna become more important. But I think just it's now rather than being a standalone team, I think you're gonna see social living inside external social living inside internal slash employee engagement. And you may have event teams now moving into virtual digital, right 100% 100%. So you have to have, in my view, the companies that are going to do that very well are going to look at events as marketing campaigns, right? Let's put a little bit of paid on LinkedIn, if we know we're targeting CIOs or CSOs or whoever, right, let's, let's run this like a campaign. The day and age when we will have a vaccine, when we will have events, I firmly believe some of the technology that will have a big impact at physical events in terms of facial recognition in terms of audience engagement, in terms of just numbers of people coming in, right. And tracking this Connor Walker fella, he visited these number of booths and you know, dot, dot, dot, what does that mean for the booths that were there for the day Overall, right and, and all that sort of stuff. So I think you'll be able to see some pretty interesting technology applications that have been alive and working for a while now just become mainstream.
Chris Shigas And maybe engaging not only the people at your event, but people that are unable to get your event to.
Brad Grantham Yep. So basically, you're just saying I should wear my mask for the rest of time.
Khaner Walker Got a little bit of that. Yes, Brad.
Chris Shigas Okay, great. Thank you, Khaner Walker. Thank you for joining us today. Appreciate it.
Khaner Walker Thank you guys.
Chris Shigas You can listen to a new episode a PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. Eastern on behalf of Brad Grantham and the entire PR wars team. I want to thank Khaner Walker, former global director of internal and executive communications for Lenovo, and currently Senior Director of Communications at Syneos Health and do me a favor this week in your writing. Look for one way to make your company more caring and empathetic to make your company more human. Now go get em'.
PR Wars Podcast: Purpose driven communication
Aug 30, 2020
How do you move the needle when you have a limited budget? On today's PR Wars podcast, we're going to dive into the world of advocacy and nonprofit PR and see how purpose driven communication is doing more, with less. Our guest is Laura Gross, President of Scott Circle Communications on a mission to make the world a better place.
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"We want the truth!" "We want the truth!" "We want the truth!" "I have news for everybody. Get over it."
Announcer It's time. Welcome, to PR Wars. Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here's your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hello, everyone. I'm Chris Shigas. Thanks for joining us on PR wars. How do you move the needle when you have a limited budget? Today, we're going to dive into the world of advocacy and nonprofit PR and see how purpose driven communication is doing more, with less. And joining me as always is co host and fellow communications magnate… Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham Hey, Chris, good to talk to you as always looking forward to this episode. And I think we're all doing more with less at this point.
Chris Shigas Thanks, Brad. And our special guest today joins us from Washington DC. Laura gross leads Scott Circle Communications with a mission to make the world a better place. Thanks for joining us, Laura. Tell us a little bit about advocacy work, nonprofit work, and what drew you to that form of public relations?
Laura Gross Right. I'll start with what drew me to nonprofit and advocacy work. It sounds cliche, but growing up in my family, we were a family that always watch television always followed politics. I remember my parents reading books about politics and the Kennedy family and it was just something always discussed at the table, whether it was reading the newspaper or watching the news during dinner, which is probably not the right thing to do, but what my family did. So I think I was just drawn to making a difference and change. And when I graduated from college, I jumped right into politics. And what really motivated me was that there was an end goal of really helping people and making a difference. And, and really purpose driven work is what drives me when I've tried to do other work, like tech startups are things like that. I'm just not as motivated. I'm really motivated by the purpose driven work.
Chris Shigas When you're in this line of work, a lot of the clients you deal with may not have giant corporate budgets. So as you're evaluating how much you can push the needle on very low resources, how do you approach that?
Laura Gross What my firm does is when we are talking to a potential client, and we ask a lot of questions up front to really hone in on the scope of work when somebody says they want to raise their profile. Well, what does that mean and what do they have time for? Is this really going to be writing materials? Is it going to be social media? Is it going to be media relations? Is it writing more content? intent is it rapid response, we really try to hone in on what's going to be not only most effective for them, but how we can work with them as well, and how we can implement what we can do with their small resources. And some organizations are bigger than others, like any nonprofit, or even Corporation, so we really hone in on what they need. And then we hone in on how we can be effective right now a lot of people still want media and press coverage. And it's really hard. So we've been going to our clients like, Look, we will pitch our hearts out for you, we will work so hard for you. But let's be realistic, and maybe it's creating content or a digital campaign for you instead,
Brad Grantham Just like any client, when when you have a new one come on board. You've got lots of different stakeholders, with advocacy work. It's a lot more complicated, because you may have one common goal. But all the different stakeholders want all these different subset outcomes to that goal. How do you navigate that?
Laura Gross How we handle Something like that is we all have to keep in mind the end goal and what really is going to take us there and what's going to move the needle. So if we're trying to target a vote in Congress, for example, are we targeting a certain member? What's going to appeal to that member? What language is going to appeal to that member? What outlets does that member read? What social media are they following? How can we really target and work with them, and we just need to prove that that's going to be the right approach. You can't be everything to everybody, because it's not going to work. So we have to make a lot of these different. You know, we've worked in coalition groups before where you're really bringing together so many different people, and we just have to make a recommendation on this is what we're going to do. This is our approach. This is why we think it's going to work. This is the timeline we're giving to implement it and to see success with it.
Chris Shigas And when you're evaluating those target audiences, particularly in advocacy, lots of times you're not necessarily arguing people into an opinion From the other side, lots of it is sometimes identifying maybe some of those people in the middle that you can move. And so how do you approach evaluating a target audience and figuring out which audience you can actually move.
Laura Gross A lot of times as communicators, we need to rely on the government relations people, a part of these organizations, the political people at these organizations, they're going to know the ins and outs of what policy is going to appeal to either it's a member of Congress or it's a state legislature. That's what we need to depend on. And once we hear from that, about what language is going to impress them, what they've supported in the past and not supported in the past, what's moved the needle for them before, who they like to vote with, then we can create a strategy but since we're not lobbyists, we need to work with these lobbyists or government relations people or policy experts to really know what language is going to make a difference. We've worked with everything from you know, getting a small panel at the FDA to Proof of drug to having legislation approved on the hill. So it really depends. I actually remember one phone call I was on I don't even remember the client. We were talking about a Supreme Court case, we were working on a Supreme Court case and the communications for that. And it came down to what does this one justice read, and I was sitting up in closing, you've got to be kidding me. we're arguing over the National Review, or the weekly standard, whatever it was, I don't even remember. But it really came down to what's going to appeal to this one justice, because we knew it was the sweet vote.
Brad Grantham You've done a lot of nonprofit work over the years, the channels and the mediums have changed over those years. Obviously, this year is an exception to everything that we've ever seen before, not just in daily life, but in those channels. So if a nonprofit were to come to you now, and say, you know, here's our cause, we know you believe in it, your passion driven about this, what would you sit down and tell them at this moment, like I think we can we might be Be able to move the needle a little bit. Yeah, let's look at these newer channels that are coming on board. I think you mentioned content earlier. You know, walk me through what your thought process would be if you're onboarding a nonprofit at this time. You know,
Laura Gross even before the onboarding process with these clients, were very honest with people. If someone comes to us and says they want press coverage right now, we are very honest with them, unless it has something to do with COVID are very, very much into the presidential campaign, like of the moment being talked about right now, which all they're talking about right now is COVID. And some other stuff, we say it's gonna be very challenging. And once again, it goes back to what I said before, we will pitch our hearts out for you. But let's talk about alternatives we can do for you. Let's talk about a digital campaign online. Let's talk about creating more content online. Let's talk about getting your coalition together and really amping up the noise and making it louder right now. Do you need to do a rally right now to create a good visual outside a member of Congress's office? What does that look like right now? Do you need any video that goes with this to tell the story online? Also, what are the graphics look like? Everything needs to be visual and online right now. I always think media is great. It's just so challenging right now we've got to come up with alternatives.
Brad Grantham In your experience, what's your best success story? And what's the failure that you learned from
Laura Gross and we were working with an organization called the National League of Cities, and they are an association of all city leaders, not mayors but other people involved in city leadership, elected most some elected officials, some administrative officials, we got word or one of their policy people from the National League of Cities, I found out that there was going to be a lot of funding cut from Veterans Affairs that went to help cities help veterans with different services. And so we got word that that was going to be cut. We decided, well, what's our approach? Do we go big with this? Do we just send out an alert to our members do we just call the VA and stay quiet about this, but we decided to To do was offer an exclusive to the washington post about this, The Washington Post wrote about it. And within, I believe 48 hours the decision was reversed and it never went through in this safe 10s of if not hundreds of millions of dollars to help these cities help service their veterans, it got all type of action online. And it really that truly made a difference in everyday lives because we were very strategic about how to approach this story. And then what's something I mistake?
Chris Shigas Yeah, maybe a mistake that you learn from, of course,
Laura Gross back in my political days, I was working for someone. We offered some exclusive news to The Washington Post. The Washington Post went with the story their competition, The New York Times was mad that they're that the post got the exclusive and I understand that but what they were more upset about and this is a reporter I had a relationship with for a while and knew this politician well, was that I didn't give him any type of heads up. He hung up on me. We never had a A relationship really moving forward. He didn't want to work with us again. I think part of it was his ego was bruised, I think and he was mad. He didn't get the exclusive. This is how it works. And he took it out on me, but he thought he was just maybe I could have handled it a different way. I've
Chris Shigas had a reporter write me off as well. I had one with with I didn't completely understand why. But at the same time, the competition amongst rival news organizations, sometimes there are reporters who take this very personally.
Laura Gross Now what was I supposed to do was really tell them in advance that I gave the post something I don't know if it's really a lesson but maybe just to develop those relationships in a different way
Chris Shigas in your relationship building with reporters when you are offering exclusives, which is a great tactic for a PR firm and a client to get a tier one publication. But at the same time, you have to be aware of the collateral damage that will happen With your other beat writers,
Laura Gross right? So what I learned from that was, is, look, we made a tactical decision to offer this to one outlet, knowing it might damage the relationship with another outlet. And we just had to be prepared for that and be willing to take that on where I don't think I was willing to take it on. And I thought we ruined our relationship with that outlet forever, when in fact, we did it we were able to find other reporters and and work with that outlet again,
Brad Grantham for those employees that you're hiring, that are coming to Scott's circle. You know, obviously, you branch out into a lot of different areas. And you work with businesses after the advocacy groups, nonprofits, what do you tell that employee coming out of college? You know, what's different about the work that you do compared to traditional PR firms? And what do you expect of them?
Laura Gross Sure. So it's got circle communications, since we work with such purpose driven clients. I believe that makes us different from a lot of other PR firms. We're not selling consumer goods. We're not b2b, we're really advocating for issues that matter whether that's a corporation that's doing some community work, or really putting purpose driven messages into their everyday corporate life, which so many corporations are doing now. And I don't think a lot of firms are specializing in this. And what we also do that's that I think is different is we're small and we're nimble, because we can be flexible working with clients, we're happy to take on a lot of different things and be flexible as well. I like to say this, and we do do this, we return phone calls. It sounds silly, but when I first started in the business and return phone calls and emails, when I first started, I had another consultant, tell me if you did that, you'd be 10 steps ahead of every other consultant in town, and I really take that to heart. We're also really honest communicators. We were just talking about media relations. If someone wants to hire us to do Media Relations right now for an issue that's not going to get traction. We'll tell them and we won't take it on and we'll say we're happy to recommend other people and if they tell you they could do it, more power to you But I wouldn't feel confident in taking that on. And I've been told that our honesty really stands out from other PR firms for better or worse for our business. But at least we have some integrity behind what we say.
Chris Shigas I have an existential question for you. So in advocacy work, you have to personally believe the causes that you're representing. So if you're representing a conservative client, do you have to be a conservative or likewise, a progressive client? Do you have to be a liberal?
Laura Gross I think it depends on the individual on what you support and what's going to motivate you. I know what motivates me and I wouldn't take on certain issues because I wouldn't want to work on them. And I know my team well enough, we never asked anybody's political leaving or political party, of course, but I know them well enough at this point that I wouldn't take someone on that stands against for what I personally stand for is the owner of the firm. We did have someone come to us, and there were some human rights violations we knew about from that company and that goes against what we stand for in person and actually one of our clients that we're fighting for Human Rights for so we wouldn't take it on. It was a lot of money out the door, but we wouldn't take it on. It's not right.
Chris Shigas I was reading about your agency. And there's an interesting program you have called the purpose program. And you're helping some nonprofits in Washington, DC who might not have a lot of resources and you're helping them bolster their in house communication ability. What's some of the advice that you give these the small nonprofits who are trying to do more with less?
Laura Gross I'm so glad you brought up the purpose program. We just launched it this year. We are we are we're giving classes to nonprofits in DC. It's free PR training. What we've told them is we know you have small staff. Sometimes it's just a staff of one that we're helping the executive directors doing the press the social media, fundraising, management, board management, you name it, you've got to do the best you can pick one thing you want to focus on when you just say you want to raise the profile of your organization. What about your organization and who is your audience? Really just focus on that. You don't have to be everything to everybody. You don't have to have a social media plan and a media relations plan and a newsletter plan and you know, be a thought leader do the best, you can just do something to raise your profile and be specific and be targeted, just like any other communications advice you'd give anybody.
Chris Shigas Excellent. Thank you for joining us today. Laura Gross President of Scott Circle Communications in Washington, DC. And remember, you can download a new PR Wars podcast every Sunday night at 8pm Eastern. Do me a favor. If you don't have a big budget for the year, focus on one area, maybe one tactic where you can make a difference, move the needle and make the world a better place. Now go get em'.
Today on PR Wars, we're going to help you have a better relationship with your client. Our special guest, Allison Showalter is a Senior Manager of Corporate Communications at Red Hat and has experience on both the agency side and the corporate side. Let's help your clients win!
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Announcer It's time. Welcome to PR Wars. Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here's your host, Chris Shigas!
Chris Shigas Thanks for listening to PR wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Hey, you, agency folks. Have you talked to your clients lately? Is everything good? Are you sure? Well, today on PR Wars, we're going to help you have a better relationship with your client. And joining me is public relations pro and fellow communications Pooh-bah, Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham Chris. I'm doing Well, crazy news week, as always, but I'm excited about this episode. Even brought a special hat to put on for it. So let's get into it.
Chris Shigas Thanks, Brad. And our special guest today has been on both the agency side and the corporate side. She's a senior manager of Corporate Communications at Red Hat. She's also a friend of the program. Allison Showwalter. Thanks for joining us, Allison, transitioning from agency life to corporate comms, obviously, was this a goal of yours and what were some of the reasons why you wanted to move out of agency work and go into corporate comms?
Allison Showalter Yeah, so it had always been a goal of mine to get out of the agency landscape and move in-house. I have worked at four different agencies in my life, starting in Manhattan and then moving down to Raleigh, in my goal has always been eventually to find that great corporate comms position in house. took me a little while finally found it. The transition was not like drinking from a firehose, in terms of like the workload, it was almost kind of the information load was a little bit much in terms of, you have to deep dive so much more when you're in house than you've ever had to do at an agency at an agency, you're able to operate, maybe at that 10,000 foot level. You don't have to know the minutiae, and all of the players and all the processes and all of the things that you have to do in house. So from that perspective, it's a bit of a firehose coming at you. But the URI part is that your day was more focused. You didn't have to change directions, 14 different times. When I walked in, I knew exactly what I'm doing. I know what I'm going to be focused on. I know my priorities. I know what things I have coming on, and there's less of those fire drills that I think you get an agency world because you have five to 15 clients depending on your workload. So you experience a little bit more of that crisis and Almost like a ping pong in agency world going back and forth between things.
Brad Grantham Allison, talk to us a little bit about your focus. Now obviously, it's much different than it was when you were an agency world. How much do you like it? And, you know, what does your day look like?
Allison Showalter But definitely, I think I love it. I think it's fantastic. The focus is amazing for me. And it doesn't mean that the days less varied. In my current role, I cover so many different parts of our business, but I know what the priority is, and I'm able to set that priority. I think that's the biggest thing I think between agencies and in house is your leading a little bit more of your career, your workload, your priorities on any given day. When you're on the agency side. Every client is the most important client. So if they all have something they want you to do on a Tuesday, you've got to do that. But in house, I can say to somebody, you know what, we've got a big event this week. We need To table this press release media outreach blog event, whatever it is, off until next week.
Chris Shigas if we start looking at some of the good things about agency work… I came out of a newsroom, Brad came out of a newsroom. And the agency life had the same similar pace. You know, in a newsroom, you're working a lot of different stories at the same time, a very fast paced environment. And agency life is the same way you have a lot of different stories that you're working on very fast paced, it's hard to get bored for you that transition from agency life into corporate comms. Were you surprised by the pace? Or was the pace similar or in some ways just different?
Allison Showalter I think it's different. I say the pace of an agency. I think people talk about that all the time have you got to keep up with the pace, the pace, the pace, and I think it's not so much the pace of the work. It's more to me I look at it as the demands that are on you by how Many different people. So I would say I'm equally busy, if not more busy on some days in house, but it's just different. I'm not answering to 20 different people who have no concept of what else I'm working on in my day. So you can have a little bit more transparency, which I think is helpful. helping somebody understand, like, these are all the things I have on my plate, right now, you want to add four more, Something's got to give an agency world you really don't have some of that flexibility. All clients want what they want when they want it, and they're the ones paying the bills, so you do have to kind of kowtow to what they want and make sure you get things done. You have a little bit more. Again, I think it's that transparency, you have a little bit more control a little bit more transparency into what you're working on. Also, I think in house, there's a little bit more, or at least I have in my role, I have experienced a little bit more respect and understanding from people internally. Like let's say a business unit comes to me and wants a press release and that's not necessarily The right way to go. They look at me as an expert. They take my opinion a little bit more. A lot of times, I feel like I felt like an agency, their stuff you had to do, again, because it was the client and it might not have been the thing that you would have recommended. Maybe it is sometimes it was sometimes it wasn't. But I think working in house, again is that control, you have a little bit more influence, you have a little bit more, you can influence that strategy a little bit more, at least that's been my experience is I've taken so much pride in being able to set a strategy and implement a strategy and see it to fruition and have the trust and the confidence of people around me knowing that I'm an expert in this area, and I know what I'm doing and if they just let me go do it. The result is going to be great.
Chris Shigas Well, we do some of the challenges of working in an agency in the stress, and making sure that you're getting paid by each client per month, and you're servicing all those clients. I for one, don't regret my agency experience at all. It's part of who made me who I am. It really sharpens your skills as a PR professional. So tell me how you feel about people who are working in communications that come from an agency background, they look at the world a little differently, don't they?
Allison Showalter One hundred percent. And I can say that I haven't done the full research into it. But I'm pretty sure that 100% of the people that are on the court comm team at Red Hat right now have agency background. And there's a reason for that exactly what you were saying. There is just some invaluable experience that you get working at an agency. I think one of the big things that I experienced is I got to work across so many different industries. And you learn really quickly how to pick up a topic and where how to research a topic and get embedded and learn that topic. You also learn really quickly how to find the right contacts for different topics, different clients, different industries, that there's that you just can't get that in house. It's a different type of experience. So I think there's a reason that a Lot of in house corporate communications teams are people who have been an agency world you know how to handle different requests coming from different places you know how to pick up a topic really quickly whether you have a background in software or healthcare or you know what have you can pick something up pretty quickly. I will say I will never miss timesheets and billing ever again. That is one thing I do not miss. Never ever ever want to have to bill a client ever again in my life. new business. Hmm. Funny to do that again. But there is a lot of I would not change my experience in agencies. I think it helps me get to where I am now. And I pull on that experience. Probably every day, something that I learned something that I picked up, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it.
Brad Grantham A lot of businesses have turnover, and PR agencies are no different to that. I find when dealing with agents He's that I deal with that, you know, there's a lot of education that goes on continual education as turnover occurs with agencies. That being said, if you were to, you know, right now say these are the three skills that my agencies or agencies in general, I think need at this moment in time. What would that be like? proactivity, or something along those lines.
Allison Showalter I would say, above all is good listeners. And when I say listeners, it's it's the skill of listening and actually hearing what's being said, whether that's by a reporter that's by your client. That to me is one of the biggest things that you need. As a PR professional, you need to listen, hear what people are saying to you. organization and productivity. I think I'm going to put those together into one, I think are is very important. You've got to be proactive. There's so many PR professionals out there and there's so few reporters and outlets and they're in an So if you're just going to be passive, send one email and call it a day, you're not going to be successful. And I think I would probably put flexibility and agility up there. Too often I see people working in communications where they're so boxed in by this is what I said I was going to do, or this is the way we always do things. This is what I said I was gonna pitch whatever that thing is that when something goes wrong or something, like let's take the share COVID, for example, when that happened, everybody had to adjust. You had to adjust really quickly. If you were in March, still pitching things the same way that you had been in January, you probably came across pretty tone deaf. And I would say for agencies right now, I'm sure there's probably a lot of agencies out there that are struggling to find creative new ways to do their jobs. I imagine there's agencies that are still pitching those standard ideas that they did before. COVID before social distancing was important. I mean, I've had conversations with different colleagues, you know, who've gone on and work different places now about, oh, they want my executive to come in person to something and it just a little tone deaf. So I would say that flexibility, that agility, no matter what the scenario is you're coming up against, it's very important. Listen, be proactive, and be flexible.
Chris Shigas Lots of corporations use agencies for different tactics. And it could be for thought leadership. It could be for, you know, booking speaking engagements, or things like crisis communications, maybe use an agency for writing a user agency for pitching media, use an agency for big ideas, right? I know personally, I don't need the big ideas. I'm good. I need that staff workload, right of the block and tackle media pitching. What are you looking for in your agencies, and what do you wish an agency person knew? About your needs, now that you've been on both sides of the fence.
Allison Showalter Yeah, that's a loaded question.
I kinda I kind of look at it. Like the things I wish I knew when I was an agency world. And I think one of the key differentiators from an agency perspective, because not every client is the same. Not every client's gonna approach them the same. But I do think there are some things that agencies can do, especially if they know their client has agency background, that makes everything more effective. I mean, for me, a lot of what we're looking for is extra arms and legs. And that's what a lot of corporate munications teams are looking for. They need those arms and legs to help them do the things that they simply don't have time to do on their own. Be those extra arms and legs for me, don't wait necessarily for me to come to you with all of the ideas. It's so wonderful to me when I have agencies sending me ideas, whether they're a fit or not, you know, send me sending me ideas. It's so helpful, and it's so useful that that productivity and not waiting for it. fully formed chairs a perfectly formed idea that's been approved all the way up to the top like, here are some ideas. Let's see what sticks. Here's five of them. Maybe one works. Maybe none of them work. But we tried. I think that's something that's helpful. And I think coming from the agency side, something I wish I knew when I was on the agency side is what's really valuable on the in house side is I don't need 100 reports a day. I don't need necessarily all those PR impressions and things like that. It's, to me, it's more about like, how are you moving the needle? How are you getting that, you know, end goal, maybe it's you might only get one placement. But if it's a really amazing placement, then that's better and more valuable to me than 20 maybe small, meaningless placements. Not meaningless. That's not the right thing to say but smaller placements. So I think having an understanding of the goals and you know, it's not always just about numbers. It's not always just about numbers, numbers, numbers. It's about moving the needle in about making a difference driving some objectives home.
Brad Grantham So Allison, a lot of agencies have tools at their disposal in their arsenal, so to speak, you know, some of those vary from media tracking services, monitoring services all the way to, you know, reporter contacts, like profit nets and arrow and some other things like that. Is this anything that your agencies use? And, you know, do you want that from your agencies?
Allison Showalter I would say all of my agencies that I use it, I'm awesome. I like the whole corporate communications team uses it, it's, they're great tools. I think the thing with any tool like that is using it appropriately and being transparent, that you're using it. I have absolutely no problem with a prophet or a hero. But to me, it's all about being transparent. That's where this opportunity came from. So it's all about it's managing expectations. And I think that's also something that's important for agencies to understand about working with your in house. I think the thing is, we have relationships that we're managing on our end as well and so We need to manage the expectations of our executives. So they continue to make time in their schedule to do things like media interviews. So it's important for us to know like this opportunity came from a hero or a prophet. So when I go request time on an executives calendar, they know Do I need to move a meeting for this? Is this something that's worth my time? What are the chances that is actually going to come to fruition in meaningful coverage? So I think that's one of the things to me is yes, by all means, use profit use herro. I think every PR professionals probably had at least one of those come to a good placement, but just be transparent and realistic when asking or positioning those opportunities to clients.
Brad Grantham If you could go back in time, 10 years, and give yourself one piece of advice to prep you for where you are now, or to have prepared you for where you are now. What would that be and why and your professional career.
Allison Showalter That's a hard one to think about. Because the landscape has changed so much in 10 years. The biggest thing I would put myself is like just continuing some of that education and understanding the value of going I would probably challenge myself to go deeper in the knowledge that I have in certain industries. Going further into that building those relationships with reporters in certain industries. I think that's one of the things that differentiates some of the older long term PR pros from some of the new newbies will call them the youngins is that you've had more opportunities to build those relationships with reporters in a very different landscape. Nowadays, everything's, it's so crowded, and it's so hard to make any of those connections and really build those relationships. And so especially some of the reporters that have been around for longer, I would probably push myself to keep up with a lot more of those relationships than I think I did in the past over 10 years of time, and really understanding that value and the give and take of that relationship.
Chris Shigas Now you know what's going on in the kitchen, you know, what's going on behind the curtain of an agency. So what are you looking for when an agency's pitching you for your business. How are you evaluating that this is going to be a good fit for Red Hat.
Allison Showalter I mean, Red Hat is a very open company. It's about being open and honest, I don't want a hard sales pitch. I don't want a bunch of empty promises. I don't want the big ideas that you know are never going to actually happen the way that they're presented in a new business
Chris Shigas deck. How about the case studies that have nothing to do with your business? I really dislike those. It shows that you don't know what we're talking about.
Allison Showalter All I can say is that I would never hire it. A PR agency based off a study. I really just don't think like, I just can't imagine a scenario where it'd be down to the wire on like, Oh, I can't decide between agency a and agency B. And you'd be like, Man, this random case study that's kind of related but not really that's what put them over the end. I'm 20 years old. 20 years old. To me, it's all about. It's about the, to me, it's the relationship. It's the personality fit. It's the understanding of what we're asking for is that's the most important thing
Chris Shigas is that ability Are you going to be able to work with me and learn from me and take that information and move it to the next level?
Allison Showalter Exactly. I'm not looking for perfection. And I think myself personally did this in agency world where you're trying to be so on the ball, you want to appear infallible, like yes, I, you know, I'm, I'm right on top of that rose, a very on top of everything that's going on, that you know, all of the people, all the players, all the things, and honestly, like, that's not possible in any job, let alone in the changing, you know, media landscape and everything that's going on. So, to me, it's not about having somebody who comes across as perfect, it has somebody it's somebody who comes across. It's like, I'm learning Right along with you like, let's, let's get in there, let's get dirty. Let's see what we can do. You know, it's throw stuff against the wall, see what sticks. We want, I wanted to you have the chops. If you have the skills to do PR you have the chops to do the job. It's about your attitude and attacking it. And it's getting in there and having the same kind of fire I guess, the same wants and desires is not the right word. That sounds creepy, but a desire to do the job. Well, I think that's the
Chris Shigas in working with agencies that are in industry excited about our business.
Allison Showalter Yeah,exactly. It's wanting to try things and get excited and reading about, you can always tell when somebody's been reading about the industry, even when it has nothing to do with them. And I think that's the difference of like, hey, this has nothing to do with what I'm doing for you. But you know, I'm aware that you guys are doing XYZ in this space, throwing you an idea, seeing a placement that before we do that has nothing to do with something that they did. It's that way I know like you're in this You're not just looking at it as a, you know checkbox. I get it. You got to make the new business deck. Yeah, get it, you know, you got to do that. But one of the things that I saw a lot in my agency days that I haven't experienced it as much in house, but one of the things that I see the importance of now being in house is the team that is pitched the team that I'm building that relationship with in that initial conversation. That has to be my team when we start working together. And I know that I mean, I worked at four different agencies, and I saw it happen, every single one of those agencies where you bring in your star players to land the business. And I would wager and you guys have heard this from clients as well don't change my team on me. And then you get to day one, and it's like, oh, here you go. Here are six people you don't even know like that. I think I see the value of the people that I talk to when we pitched the business when we came on board. Those are the people I work With day to day, they were the people I had that conversation with. They're the ones who know what I'm looking for. I don't have to stop, rebuild that relationship with somebody else. And now that doesn't count into attrition and things like that. But that can't be helped. But it's that don't just bring it don't have an all star team that you take into pitch business, and then switch it on a client because that is one of the most frustrating things I see now. And again, I've been very fortunate. I haven't experienced that in house. But man did I see that a lot in agency day?
Brad Grantham It sounds like we're gonna have to do a whole nother podcast episode about new business decks and new business winning. Things have kind of changed over the past couple of months, I think in those pitches, you all of us. Remember those new business decks, that we would be a part of where you know, back in the day, it's like, you know, our agency has $200 million in Billings, and, you know, here's all of our clients in the first three pages and nobody has time for that anymore. I think again, back to your point. Who is the team do we connect and what can you actually help? With, with no BS, just get to
Allison Showalter your relationships. That's how I believe, like, show me who you know, in my area, you know, tell me, you know, some of the people, somebody some stuff you've placed and it's not a case study it's show me that you know this area and it's not by a case study from 10 years ago or something that's kind of related. Show me your relationships that you've got right now that you know the people that I want to get to.
Chris Shigas Well, thank you, Allison. I mean, what I heard is, you really want a partner that is all in with you same goals, same objectives willing to learn. And that's what we're all about here on PR wars. So thanks for joining us.
Allison Showalter Thanks for having me.
Chris Shigas You can tune into a new episode of PR wars every Sunday night at 8pm. And do me a favor. The next time you talk to a client, make sure they feel that their battles are your battles… agree on what succes looks like… and help your client win. Now go get em'!
PR Wars Podcast: Cut through the clutter
Aug 16, 2020
How do you get your messaging to cut through the clutter? On today's PR Wars, former journalist and agency pro Sean O'Leary, Vice President at Susan Davis International, talks about messaging in the emerging tech sector. Learn how to differentiate your company in a crowded marketplace.
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Announcer It's time. Welcome to PR Wars! Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here's your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Thanks for tuning into PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Today we're going to talk about making your messaging cut through the clutter. Joining me as co host and fellow communication titan, Brad Grantham.
Brad Grantham This is a topic I've really been looking forward to. So why don't we just cut through the clutter and get down to it.
Chris Shigas Our special guest today is Sean O'Leary. He's a Vice President at Susan Davis International out of Washington, DC. One focus for Sean is the tech sector. And let's be honest, there's a lot of cluttered messaging in tech today. Sean, thanks for joining us. I appreciate you being here with Brad and I on PR Wars. We're talking today a little bit about tech and tech PR. And one of the things... it's such a crowded marketplace, both consumer tech, software, hardware, b2b tech, talk a little bit about messaging. So when you approach a client in the tech space, how do you start to get them to cut through the clutter with their messaging?
Sean O'Leary Yep. So that's a great question. Because a lot of the times when I'm speaking with tech companies, they are and for good reason... they're focused on what they're able to do. And they're really focused on the tech aspect of whatever their technology is, and I've talked about this before, but like the word "solution," right, it seems like everyone wants to use the word solution. Especially being here, Washington DC... I feel like there's 1,000 companies with solutions in their name. So, that does not help you stand out.
Chris Shigas Yeah, no kidding. I mean, I'll give you this. The word "solutions," is a huge pet peeve of mine. And I was at a trade show... back when we used to have trade shows, if you remember them. And I actually walked down the whole aisle in a trade show row. And every booth explained themselves as providing solutions, Business Solutions. I made it to the end of the row and I turned around and I looked back at all the trade show booths, and realized I didn't understand what any of these companies did. Not one of them, right. It's such a generic word. And it's such an easy way out for a communicator.
Sean O'Leary Exactly. So that's why when you when it comes to messaging, I think there's two things that I like to focus on. The first thing is what's the problem that you're trying to solve? Don't just jump to the solution message, what that problem is, because I think that's the easiest way to come across to potential customers who hear you know what I have that problem, I'm interested in listening to them. And then the second piece is messaging the results, and what you can actually provide, because to your point, when you kind of use the word solution, it doesn't really have any meaning anymore. But if you can go to a customer or reporter and say this technology will save X amount of time, X amount of money, whatever it is, then it becomes real. So I think those two things, it's about sort of making the technology real to people. And that is how you kind of break free from, from the competitors, we're going to all say the same things.
Brad Grantham So let's talk about, you know, messaging, the problem messaging, the results, especially in the environment that we find ourselves in now, you know, we had to cut through the clutter before. Now it's even more so than ever. When you're advising a client and saying, Alright, we're going to message the problem in the results. We're going to do it in this format. Do you add any extra steps now, that you didn't do before, too after the clutter.
Sean O'Leary Yeah, I mean, I think that there's there's two things. One, which I think is really interesting is that in terms of figuring out what the problem is, I think a lot of times these tech companies know what the problem is, but they're not focused on what the problem is. So just as an example, usually when I start with a client, I have them kind of give a background on sort of their their solution, right. And as they start talking, I can hear what the problem is, but they're not hearing it. So I think it's part of you know, being on this side as being on the PR side, there are things that you hear they're like, wait a minute, that's a problem that would apply elsewhere that they might not be thinking about. So a lot of the times it just gets it just it's it's an old trick I used to use as a reporter, right? Just ask a lot of open ended questions, and you usually get to the answer. So a lot of times when I'm dealing especially like product, folks who are really focused on the product, just the more they talk, you kind of hear little things that they say they kind of come across that makes sense. And then from a results perspective, and again, this kind of goes back to being a reporter. I would kind of put myself in the shoes of a reporter like what's what Result Am I going to care about? Like, if I'm writing a story? What am I going to put in that first or second paragraph? And a lot of times, it really gets down to like I said, it's like time saved, money saved. Like, what are those things that make you stand out? And how can you quantify it? Because I think a lot of times that quantification hasn't happened.
Brad Grantham So let me take a step back again, and this environment, when you're working with that client, do you say I want to do in addition to the pitch, I want to create a video that explains this easily, and cuts through the clutter in 30 seconds or less? Or what are those types of content that you may be looking to do in addition to what you used to do before?
Sean O'Leary Yep, so I would say in addition, yeah, video, I think is a great one. I think the important thing with video, like you said is making sure that there are short videos that you can share via social media because I think a lot of times companies want to do videos and they ended up being like these three to four minute you know, magnum opus is that don't really resonate when someone's flipping on Twitter. So it's kind of like one of those like, what's the 32 second 30 to 60 second video You know, you can put together and especially right now, because of COVID. There's so many of these virtual events and webinars. So how are you going to be able to get your message across quickly and effectively for someone who's, you know, sitting at home and listening as opposed to being in person.
Chris Shigas What I really liked to hear that you were talking about, about focusing on the problem. And it really forces you to be thinking more about your customer, instead of just talking about yourself that that a lot of companies fall into. You don't want to be that boring guy at the party who just talks about himself all day, and nobody really cares, right? I would think for you on the agency side, and admittedly lots of people inside a corporation... they start drinking their own Kool-aid, and they start with their own vocabulary and their own language of how they talk about what they do. So that must be a challenge for you to get them to stop talking about themselves so much and put them in the mind of the customer. And I think what I heard you say which is really interesting is to break down some of those barriers. You start by asking questions, right instead of just being the know-it-all and tell them what to do.
Sean O'Leary Exactly. Again, it goes back to my reporter days, the more that someone talks, the more they're going to tell you, it seems pretty basic. But that's sort of the first step is to figure that out. And I would say the second thing in terms of sort of like breaking through the clutter is figuring out sort of like what people are already talking about, whether it's in the media, whether it's in sort of the, you know, the area that you're in, and kind of figuring out what those those news hooks are that you can kind of play off of, you know, for example, being in DC, for companies that are trying to sell to the government. It's like what piece of policy, what legislation is out there talking about what's related to your technology, and then that can be your problem that you talk about.
Chris Shigas Another challenge, especially when you're dealing with technical products or services, is finding the right audience, right. So sometimes you have a very technical type of audience, but you'll lose the larger consumer press media. Sometimes you have messaging that is pretty high level 30,000 feet, right? What's some of the things that go through your mind when you're deciding on the level of technical information to provide in Tech PR?
Sean O'Leary Yeah, I'd say I think the biggest driving factor for me is the level of technical expertise that person the spokesperson has, for example, we have one client, where when we're talking about those big umbrella issues, that's when I put the CEO out there. You know, that's when I put a director out there to talk about it. But if we are talking to a more technical trade, and we have somebody, you know, if they, whether it's AI, whether it's automation, you know, if they can get into the nitty-gritty about it, then that's who I want to put forward and I want to hit those trades. So that's sort of my driving is I kind of try to build it around the spokes people because if you have a real technical spokesperson trying to talk to a broad audience, it doesn't work, just like vice versa. A CEO talking to a very niche trade audience also might not make sense we have seen this year you know, by It's being cut all over the place, especially with events, trade shows and those types of things. What have you seen done? Well, and the absence of those events? I mean, is there something that stood out to you and said, You know what, that client really did a good job? And if so, what did they do? Yeah, so I would say something that one of my clients has done really well, has really been the video piece. And I know we talked about this, but doing more videos and not just like little animated 30 to 60 second videos, but like, like a Q&A. So this company has sort of a chief medical officer that can kind of deal with their technology that's aimed at the healthcare side of things. So clearly, he was going to be in demand right now. So instead of him and he has done virtual events and things, but every week, he does like a 30 to 60 second q&a, that they're able to put up there. They're able to share via social media. So I think that's been pretty effective for them. And then from a media side, I've just seen a lot more of these like Zoom interviews with public that may not have done those before that just kind of give like a little bit more color and let people see what's going on. So I think that's kind of been the big thing I've seen is the video piece.
Brad Grantham And to that, you know, I think we've seen a shift, like you just pointed out, you know, whereas 5 to 10 years ago, or even a year or two ago, it may not have been acceptable to do a Zoom video on broadcast cable, what have you, it's not the norm. I mean, we're recording this podcast right now via Zoom, which again, a year ago would have been unthinkable. So it's interesting to see how that's kind of changed.
Sean O'Leary Yeah, I would just say the one thing I think is pretty interesting in terms of like the media prep and media training is that I've now had to give like media training to people about how to properly do an interview on zoom. You know, a lot of the basics are the same if you were on TV, but there are just some things are just a little bit different about doing an interview from your home office, that it kind of takes some time to getting used to.
Chris Shigas Now from an agency perspective, and you have tech clients, I can tell you like 10 years ago, back in my agency time everybody wanted to be on the Today Show, right, or front page of The Wall Street Journal. As you see your clients coming to you now, is there a common thread of what they're looking for what they need the assistance that they're looking for in an agency?
Sean O'Leary Yeah, it's interesting, because I think from abroad abroad perspective, I think they're all looking for the same thing. Like, you know, they want more awareness, they want to increase their thought leadership, etc. But I do think that there's less interest in like specific outlets, because you're right. I mean, I remember when I went over to the agency world A few years ago, and it was like, I want to be on TV, I want to be on CNN, and sort of the media landscape has changed so dramatically. I always give this example that a few years ago, we had like an older CEO who got an interview request from BuzzFeed. And at first he didn't want to do it, because all he knew about BuzzFeed, you know, was like the listicles and the gifs. So we basically had to say like they have this many million followers, they have this many million visitors. This is the absolute perfect place for you to be in interview and they did the interview the story ran and obviously his tune changed. But I think it's more about like, how can I reach the audience I want to reach because not only there are more outlets, but there's sort of like more fractured outlets out there to like if you're wanting to hit like the healthcare, you know, there are a zillion healthcare trades out there, you have to figure out which one makes the most sense for you. So I think it's the top level goals are the same. I think how you get there, I think I have a little bit more freedom on the PR side to say this is the path you should be taking to get there, as opposed to kind of be beholden to a CEO who's obsessed with the today show or something.
Brad Grantham So Sean, you know, obviously, with advent of COVID-19, things have changed. And we've discussed that a little bit. But from your perspective, you know, how are you pitching during this time? What are the most effective pitches? How are you? How are you cutting through everything?
Sean O'Leary Yeah, I think the biggest thing is right now just about every story that every reporter is writing right now is going to be affected by COVID in some form or fashion, whether it's you're talking to employees, businesses, consumers, etc. You always have to be thinking about what What the pandemic and COVID what that impact is. So if you can draw pretty much a straight line between your technology or your messaging or what you're doing, and how it can help COVID-19 you're going to get on the radars of reporters. And I'll just mention one company is actually I work with is doing contact tracing. So you can just think about how important that is, and how many different angles that you can take from that. So just from that alone, there are so many questions we can answer.
Chris Shigas Great, thank you. Here at PR Wars, we offer communication solutions for your business. Just kidding. We got to get better than that. All right, so I'm well I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining us.
Sean O'Leary Thank you so much for having me on. Appreciate it.
Chris Shigas You can tune into a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm eastern. On behalf of the entire PR wars team, thank you to Brad Grantham and Sean O'Leary, Vice President at Susan Davis International. Do me a favor this week. Identify the problem that you're product or service solves for your customer. Now go get em'.
PR Wars Podcast: Nurturing your reporter circle
Aug 09, 2020
How do you keep the relationships you care about alive? Today on PR Wars, we're going to talk about relationships, but specifically... PR relationships with journalists.
Listen to PR Wars on:
Announcer It's time. Welcome to PR Wars. Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here's your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey everyone, welcome to PR wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Nice to hear from you. How's the family? You okay? I'm good. Hey, let's keep in touch. Hey, how do you keep your relationships alive? Today we're going to talk about relationships, but specifically, PR relationships with journalists. Joining me is co-host Brad Grantham as we dive into nurturing your circle of reporter contacts. All right, Brad, you holding up okay?
Brad Grantham I'm doing well. It's been a crazy news week. But what can you expect at this point?
Chris Shigas So today, we're gonna be talking about nurturing your reporter contacts. How do we build this reporter circle? Everyone's busy. Everyone's emails are overflowing. When you pick up the phone to call a reporter what what are they going through? What's the status of the newsroom today?
Brad Grantham I think it's somewhat controlled chaos. And more so than when you and I worked in newsrooms years ago. You know, the evolution with all the different social channels has put more pressure on reporters and photographers to pretty much double their output, if not triple their output than they used to with all the different social channels. So if something's happening in real time, I mean, not only are they having to do it for Facebook live, Twitter, the TV station itself proper, and then there's your web story. It's a lot of different tangled elements. Now, so I think it's a lot more complex. And on top of that, they're getting bombarded via email from viewers, managers, PR practitioners all over all this is happening in real time. So it's quite frustrating, I think for a lot of reporters.
Chris Shigas Absolutely. I think one of the big mistakes though, as people really look at... "oh, reporters are so busy, I don't want to bother them. I don't want to pick up a phone and call them because they'll get mad at me because they're busy. So I'll just send out these email blasts, and hopefully somebody will respond." I think it's not so much that reporters don't want you to call them it's that they don't want you to call them with bad ideas. They'll always take a good story idea.
Brad Grantham Right. Now they'll always take a good story idea. I think that's the frustration you know, if you're in the middle of a breaking news event, let's say for instance, a major weather event or chronic or what have you. And, you're trying to find detailed information from a local Pio that's pertinent to that story of that incident happening. And you're having to scroll through again, all those different emails and a mobile phone trying to find that information. Yeah, it gets frustrating. But if you catch them at the right time, and it's a decent idea that leads to great storytelling, perhaps they'll absolutely accept that.
Chris Shigas As a PR professional, you shouldn't have this understanding that reporters are way too busy. They have way too many stories to cover, and they'll never want to cover your story. They have to put out a lot of output like you're talking about. And they need a lot of content to what we used to call "feed the beast." Yeah, the key here is it has to be structured in a realistic way that it's useful to them.
Brad Grantham No, I completely agree. It's almost like we used to joke back in the day about having a Rolodex full of contacts. They want that Rolodex full of content. that's meaningful, and they can tap into at any point. But again, it's all comes down to the timing, right when you reach out to them, and they can put that in that. That box, so to speak, or at least put that mental note away. Yeah, this, this might be a good one. Let me put it down. Chris, one thing I think a lot of practitioners may not realize, especially those that are just getting in to the business. You know, when we talk about timing, there are a lot of different meetings that take place editorially, both at broadcast stations, newspapers, and even online outlets. It's knowing when those meetings are taking place, for instance, and broadcast. The majority of the first editorial board meetings happen between 930 and 11. And most places, they decide here's the stories we're covering as of 11 o'clock this morning, of course, that's subject to change. They have an afternoon crew that comes in around 230 or three editorial board meeting happens, this is what we're covering nightside if you were to reach out to the assignment desk, or those reporters after 11 o'clock, maybe 10 3011 somewhere in there It's a good story or has decent storytelling ability, and you've got a good shot. But the last thing you want to do is do it before that you want to find that, that little bit of time or it's a little bit of peace, or they're on the way to another story or the desk has taken a little bit of a break, or the managers are just catching up on email. That's a perfect time to do it. And the other thing that I think a lot of practitioners and they may not realize your day side staff, and newsrooms, all over is always going to be a lot larger than the night side stuff. For instance, you know, a TV station in Raleigh or Atlanta, may have 20 to 25 to 30 people day side, that's reporters and photographers nightside to maybe two reporters and two photographers. So your greatest chances of making that connection are probably going to be during the day,
Chris Shigas In the mornings, it might be less than that.
Brad Grantham Yeah, for the morning show. Actually. Yeah, yeah, it might be it might be less than that. Or it might be might be two or three, but it's knowing that window of best success that will set you up.
Chris Shigas One more window that you could also think about trying to catch if you get the right contact name, whether it's an editor at a newspaper or a producer at a TV station... are the weekend crews. Usually on Thursday and Fridays, they're preparing for the weekend, which is a great time to pitch some newspaper editors trying to put their Sunday paper to bed by Friday. Same with a weekend news producer as they're assembling their shows.
Brad Grantham You brought up the struggle nightside that one time... weekend is more of a struggle. I mean, I can remember trying to lay out the plans on a Thursday evening or Friday afternoon. We've got x crews, and I would say 50% of the time, we would only have half the weekend figured out we just see obviously what else would arise. You know, Friday night, Saturday night, what have you. So no, that's a great, great idea.
Chris Shigas One example when I began as a television news producer in the 90s... the primary way we received press releases was through a fax machine. And as I transitioned over into PR agency life, I went to email... kind of as a novelty. You know, everyone's faxing. I'm gonna email the story that might get more eyeballs, because I'm doing it differently than everyone else. Now, email is pretty overloaded, isn't it?
Brad Grantham It's a little passe at this point. I think we're having to invent new ways, you know, whether that's going into DM's and Twitter, whether that's going in through Facebook messaging, here's a crazy thing. Actually sending a handwritten letter with some interesting information might make a difference because nobody does that anymore. Right? It's, it's all it's all digital. If you actually took the time to write a letter and say, Here's, you know, here's a one or two paragraph pitch. Here's the date and time we're wanting to start you might find this interesting. You might I'd be surprised what happens there.
Chris Shigas Yeah. Well, as long as the journalist doesn't think they they're being contacted by the Unabomber,
Brad Grantham Right, or somebody from prison. Yes. That's awful.
Chris Shigas So speaking of that, as we look at email pitches, the one thing I'm not going to let go of, is the telephone. If I'm engaging an agency, I can always tell when a press release was just emailed, or when follow up calls were made. I can tell you right away, just based on the pickup. I'm a firm believer that you will never build a successful circle of contacts if you're not picking up a phone and talking to people like you're a human.
Brad Grantham Yeah, no, you've got to have that human connection. I mean, your tone dictates everything. I mean, again, if I were to have a statement in front of me right now and just read it with my eyes, and then read it out loud separately, you're going to get two different texts for from whoever I read that tour who has read that statement.
Chris Shigas So I'm looking at this research by a technology company called Propel. They did a study and found that 54% of email pitches go unopened. That's over half your media list, Brad.
Brad Grantham I'm surprised it's not higher. I'm surprised it's not 65 70%. Again, we talked about the bombardment of emails that are just proliferating throughout newsrooms and media in general. I'm actually surprised it's that low.
Chris Shigas That's a good day.
Brad Grantham That's it. Yeah. That's a great man. Chris, well, let me ask you this. We talked about the different shapes that newsrooms are taking. We talked about, you know, the best timing perhaps, to hit these reporters. We talked about establishing that human connection again, and making that start of a relationship. But how do we, how we nurture reporters and your mind?
Chris Shigas It goes through stages. You have the beginning... the newlywed phase, especially for a lot of young PR professionals. They don't have this circle of contacts yet. And they're doing a lot of cold calling. They're sending email pitches to these media lists. They've never read this writer before. They've never seen it. They're blasting it out hoping someone will pick it up. Then there's the phone calls. Sometimes you catch someone at the wrong time and they're not nice to you. And it's a tough road. Some young PR people won't get past that stage. They'll engage in it, they don't like it. They'll give it up and they'll go on and do something else with their career. If you can get over that. Then you reach a stage where you start knowing the industry and you start knowing what reporters are writing what and you start knowing the different beat writers not only by name, but by face because maybe you've worked with them on a story before you are at an event with them. And it is so critical that you now use your communication skills at the event, you walk up to them, you talk to them, you treat them like a human being, you joke with them, you compliment them, you do all the things you would do if you're really caring about a relationship that you want to have with another person.
Brad Grantham Completely agree but the the art of the give and take that is something that's been lost over time. And that is, you know, once you've started to create that relationship with a journalist, looking out for them and sending them ideas, even if it doesn't benefit you. Look, I know you cover this sector, I know you cover this space. thought about this, it might be crazy, but there might be something to it just just thought, you know, I'd send it your way. Journalists Do not forget that. They just don't.
Chris Shigas And one of the things I like to do for the relationships that I have with media is to really continue to follow them. It's so easy online to follow their Twitter account, friend them on Facebook, follow their LinkedIn. Typically these writers are very proud of their work and they post the results of their work on the social platforms. And it's great to acknowledge their work even if it's not a story about your company. To say, "Hey, that was a great angle you did on Tesla, or on IBM," tweet their tweets and like their LinkedIn posts and engage with them and maintain that relationship so that when it comes time for you to have your pitch of a story that's very important to your company, that relationship is still intact. You've been keeping it going beyond social media, being able to have a conversation with them on the telephone, that's relevant, that's authentic, that's real and that's human. That goes a long way into building your circle of reporters.
Chris Shigas Well, that'll wrap up another edition of PR Wars. As always, Brad Grantham... thank you for joining us. Remember you can find a new episode of PR Wars every Sunday night at 8pm. And hey, do me a favor? Do something this week to nurture your circle of reporters. Now go get em'.
PR Wars Podcast: Writing powerful speeches
Aug 02, 2020
Great speeches can change the world. In today's PR Wars podcast, we talk about Comms 101 techniques that will make your speech writing more memorable, effective, and impactful.
The PR Wars “Comms 101″ segment recognizes core communication principles to help you become a better communicator.
Listen to PR Wars on:
Announcer: It's time. Welcome to PR wars coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas: Hey everyone, welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. Today on Comms 101. We're talking about great speech writing.
(Clip from Braveheart)
“They may take our lives, but they will never take… our freedom!”
Chris Shigas: Great speeches. Who doesn't love a great speech? They can change the world. Today, we're going to talk about some Comms 101 techniques that will make your speech writing more impactful.
Anaphora, Epistrophe, and Anadiplosis. What is he speaking Greek? Yeah, I'm speaking Greek. These are rhetorical devices to help you in your speech writing. Do not settle for your writing to wallow in the muck of mediocrity.
First we'll examine Anaphora. Anaphora consists of repeating words at the beginning of a series of sentences or at the beginning of a series of clauses. It creates an emphasis for your communication. It makes your speech more memorable. Think of it as branding your speech.
In the movie Wall Street, Michael Douglas plays the role of Gordon Gekko. He's a wealthy tycoon and delivers his famous “greed is good” speech. In this clip, each sentence begins with the word… greed. This is an example of anaphora.
(Clip from Wall Street)
“The point is ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms. greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge, has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.”
Chris Shigas: I want to use another example. This is the most famous display of Anaphora. It was the greatest speech ever given. In 1963, Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his I Have a Dream speech in Washington DC. He began a series of paragraphs with the words, “I have a dream,” and it burned into the consciousness of not only America, but of the world. This is the most famous example of an Anaphora.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
Chris Shigas: Well, everyone remembers this particular use of Anaphora. But in his speech, it was not the only time that Dr. King use this rhetorical technique. In the same speech, he also began a series of paragraphs with the phrase, “Let Freedom Ring.”
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.:
“Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia.
Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee.
Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi.
From every mountainside, let freedom ring.”
Dr. King actually used Anaphora a third time in the speech by repeating the phrase “with this faith.” He used this phrase “with this faith,” beginning three phrases, and to hammer it home, he finished the “with this faith” Anaphora with another technique. This technique is the opposite of Anaphora. It's called Epistrophe. Epistrophe is the repetition of the same word, not at the beginning... but at the end of a successive series of clauses or sentences. Listen to how Dr. King uses the word “together” at the end of each phrase.
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: “With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together.”
Chris Shigas: Now, Dr. King wasn't the first orator and he wasn't even the first American to use Epistrophe. In fact, it was used for emphasis in one of the country's most revered eulogies. President Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address to help the nation heal from the horrible Civil War battle. Listen to the repetitive use of the word “people.”
Abraham Lincoln: “And that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from this Earth.”
Chris Shigas: A more modern use of Epistrophe… now, regardless of your politics, President Barack Obama delivers great speeches. Can we all agree on that? In 2008, his campaign stump speech, uses the phrase “Yes we can.” This form of Epistrophe can become a chant. It helps move the crowd. It encourages participation. Listen to Obama's use of Epistrophe with “Yes, we can.”
Barack Obama: “It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed the trail towards freedom through the darkest of nights. Yes, we can. It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness. Yes, we can. It was the call of workers who organized… women who reached for the ballot… a President who chose the Moon as our new frontier… and a King who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the promised land. Yes, we can.”
Chris Shigas: So, we learned about Anaphora and Epistrophe. The last rhetorical technique that we'll learn today is called Anadiplosis. Anadiplosis is the repetition of a word used at the end of a sentence, and then you use it again. At the beginning of the next sentence, it creates a logical sequence or series.
In this example from Star Wars. Yoda explains why fear is the path to the dark side, and he uses an Asus to make this progression by taking the last word of a phrase and repeating it as the first word of the next sentence
Yoda: “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.”
Chris Shigas: A final example of Anadiplosis, I'm going to use another example from Obama. I know I used an example from him already, but he's a great speaker. So, give me a break. Listen to the progressions of Anadiplosis taken from his “One Voice” speech.
Barack Obama: “One voice can change the room. And if the voice can change the room, it can change the city. And if it can change the city, it can change the State. If it can change the State, it can change the nation. If it can change the nation, it can change the world.”
Chris Shigas: So, there you have it. Anaphora, Epistrophe, and Anadiplosis. These are three rhetorical devices to make your speech writing more memorable. To make your speech writing more effective. To make your speech writing more impactful. Now go get em’!
Bluto from Animal House: “Over? Did you say over? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? (Germans? Forget it, he’s on a roll now). Cuz when the going gets tough… … … the tough get’s going! Who’s with me? Yahhhhhhhh!”
PR Wars Podcast: The new PR landscape
Jul 26, 2020
Are you ready to tear up your 2020 communication plan yet? PR Wars talks with corporate communication pro Brad Grantham. We will explore how the pandemic has changed both the media and public relations industries and where do we go from here.
Listen to PR Wars on:
Announcer It's time. Welcome to PR Wars. Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas Hey everyone, welcome to PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas.
Are you ready to tear up your 2020 communication plan yet? What do we do now? How do we stop being reactive in this crisis year? And how do we get proactive? Can we even salvage 2020? Today we're going to look at how the pandemic has changed both the media and public relations. And where do we go next?
Joining me today is a friend. He's a fellow corporate communications practitioner. I think he has one of the best backgrounds for our profession, because it's nearly identical to mine. He got his start in local television news, and then he moved into PR agency work and he's now running external communications for a global corporation, Brad Grantham. Hey Brad, are you holding up in this new environment, you're set up in your house, you got your home office, you're fully functional?
Brad Grantham Fan-tastic there's nothing like being on a conference call with colleagues and hearing your daughter's scream in the background at the top of their lungs because the Disney Channel malfunctioned. It's good times.
Chris Shigas
I was on a conference call this morning and somebody was knocking at the door and the dog was barking and I'm like, somebody's gonna get that please.
Brad Grantham
All you can do is laugh now, because everybody's going through the same thing. You know, even if you have the most professional appointment ahead of you. And you think you've got all the bases covered. Somebody else in that conference call is gonna have a misstep, and it's just great.
Chris Shigas
Well, everyone's trying to adapt. Everyone's trying to move forward with their campaigns and really look at their plans. But there's, there's some serious big changes in our profession. And in the media, the reporters that we pitch to, and in fact, you've been kind of looking at some of the latest trends in in the media and it's not a pretty picture.
Brad Grantham
No, it really isn't. I mean pointer came out last night. A couple of days ago, a story by Axios. And I think the thing that's concerning for both of us, as former news, guys, is the amount of layoffs that are occurring across the globe. Axios estimated that through June of this year 11,000 people in newsrooms lost their jobs. To put that in perspective, in 2009, after the recession, or during the recession, there was about 20,000 people that lost their job in 2009. So yeah, it's it's quite disturbing you and I both know people who have been impacted by it. It's not anything that anybody should take joy in, you know, they're there to help get out the word to the masses. And when you lose good quality people in those sectors, it hurts all of us.
Chris Shigas
Right. And many of the newsrooms were already small, and now they're smaller.
Brad Grantham
Yeah, basically five to seven different companies that own broadcast newsrooms or newspapers now, across the US, and with that comes a lot of power. And when you go through times like this and you're losing advertising money, you have to start cutting jobs at some point. It's just disheartening to, to watch. Again, having worked in those.
Chris Shigas
Yeah. So if you look, the flip side of that, despite the fact that our media lists are getting smaller and smaller, if you do get a placement, perhaps you can even get further reach because there's more syndication, and your story goes a little farther than maybe it would have when there's a lot of media.
Brad Grantham
Yeah, that's a great point. You know, I think, if you're able, and your organization is able to get into a tier one publication, and the New York Times Wall Street Journal, Reuters, or Associated Press as well, if you're able to connect with one of those, the ability for syndication or the ability for aggregates to pick up that wire story or data and put it in their own sites, is quite high. You know, something that should not be discounted is the trade publications. We've got to make sure that they're taken care of as well.
Chris Shigas
During this time, the virus has put a lot of people in our profession kind of on our heels being reactive. And I think now people are emerging going, we need to salvage this year, we need to do something proactive. I don't know what that looks like, if my program was event driven. How am I going to shift to virtual really trying new strategies to see Hey, does this work? The reporters are going through the same thing?
Brad Grantham
Yeah, I think you know, what we've pivoted to and some other companies I know. It's more content related items, whether that's videos, infographics, what have you instead of doing your traditional press releases or events, because you know, obviously, the events are canceled, you don't want to put out a press release to seem insensitive, given the current environment and you have to be very clear. I think this is something that's going to go on for another six months to a year. You know, so it's not like, we can
Brad Grantham To say, Alright, let's just wait till September and see what happens now we've still going to be producing content, we still need to be digging for additional content that we can push out later down the year and heads up, here's a great thing now would be a great time to do research reports and surveys. So if you have some budget that you know, haven't had taken back, what research could we do that we could push out towards the end of the year or in Q1 of next year, have the time to do it right? And then distributed them.
Chris Shigas We have this shrinking media list and it's making me wonder, media relations used to be the 800 pound gorilla of public relations. That's where you started. That's where you developed your skills. That was a majority of your job. Now as you look at external communications, perhaps media relations is playing a smaller role than it used to and I look at look at other things. Whether it's social media content, or it's a company putting out their own content, whether it's newsletter, YouTube channel, or maybe looking at influencers outside of the media, like Twitter users or youtubers or podcasters, where do you see the role of media in external comms and kind of moving forward into the future?
Brad Grantham You know, that's a, that's a great question. If I were to tell you right now, what the media landscape is gonna look like five to 10 years from now, I would just throw some dice through the window and just see where it lands because nobody knows. I think it will be diminished quite a bit. I still think the context of the circles that you develop, they'll still be a strong necessity for that because those people if they're gone from newsrooms are going to go into content development, or other sectors like that which are becoming more and more important. So for for us in the midst of COVID. You're not doing press releases every week.
Brad Grantham You're not doing events, what can you do? You can do videos, infographics, newsletters, customer stories. There's a whole gamut of things. And if I were to do something right now, I do a research or a survey at this point, just to make sure that four months down the line, I've got the videos, I've got all that content ready to go to put it out when the time is appropriate.
Chris Shigas
Absolutely. And I think there's also opportunity clearly for the cause of journalism and the institution of journalism. This is a bad thing. But as far as communicators go, within a corporation, I think we've seen greater importance placed on our positions within the corporate culture, perhaps more seats at the CEO table. I think more and more companies are realizing how navigating this new landscape of Media and Communication you need more professional guidance than ever.
Brad Grantham It's it's an absolute landmine right now. Let's be frank, you know, seasoned executives are needed now more than ever, the CEOs table, as we progress through this pandemic, I think the needs gonna be even more so closer than ever. We know many companies will be experiencing massive layoffs as we go throughout this year and early next year. And you know, if there was ever a time to have your communicators on board, internal external content development, this is it. It's time to sharpen and get ready. But yeah, great point.
Chris Shigas
When we look at some of the permanent changes that 2020 is going to have on communication. One of the first things that comes to mind is for me, the role of the workplace office. Do you think there's there's really any reason that PR professionals corporate communicators will need to work out of a corporate office with a nine to five commute every day?
Brad Grantham I love the way that you laughed as you asked that question. Because I think you answered it for everybody. No, there's no need. I mean, we've proven so far, you know, the first four or five months of this pandemic, that we can still do our jobs and do it well. There's just no need and think about the amount of money that could be saved. If we got rid of all the office spaces just for show,
Chris Shigas I think that's an important point, I think companies are going to reevaluate the real estate and look at that and say, Wow, you know, do we need all this expensive real estate? And can we operate in another way? Obviously, if you look at the other side of this, you have maybe some some bosses or leaders who think that productivity will be reduced if people are at home, but wouldn't you evaluate someone's productivity, just like if they were at work? I mean, they're either doing their work or they're not right.
Brad Grantham Yeah, it's they're either doing the work or they're not. But I think the the bigger question we have to ask ourselves when we come out of this, again to those leaders is, do you think you will be able to retain staff? If you do not provide a flexible working environment? And the answer is no. Because now that we've gone through this, you know, if somebody were to come and say, Look, we'd like you to do X in our company. We've got flexible working hours, you can work from home, you know, two or three days a week or all the time. And that's all there is to it. And, you know, Company B is saying, No, we want you to ask from 830 to 530. It's a no brainer.
Chris Shigas You have to commute into Washington DC every day.
Brad Grantham Yeah. I mean, it's just it's so antiquated. So I think we're going to see a massive change. When we come out of this. You know what it looks like? Nobody knows. It's kinda like the Wild West. But I think it's going to be for the better.
Chris Shigas Well, great any other prognostications that you could see the how this experience of 2020 is going to impact communicators.
Brad Grantham I think I'll leave you with a couple thoughts. 2020 has been a cluster on many different fronts. Let's just be frank. But the good thing is it's taught us to reevaluate not only our skills but the skills of our colleagues, where we morphing to where are we going from here? What is the best way to deliver content and the story? And the last thing is, I think it's caused a lot of people reevaluate their crisis plans. Right. So we know as of the taping of this episode, that the unemployment benefits have not been extended at this point. August and September could be really interesting if that doesn't take place. And you know what other companies are wanting to do layoffs in q3, and q4. You know, what real estate companies and all these different things are gonna be shutting things down. with that comes a need for a crisis team, you know, how are you going to manage that internally, externally, and make sure it's done succinctly and care. I mean, I think it's a lot of things a lot of things people aren't thinking about right now or they're starting to as they realize, you know, there's impending doom down the corner. That's a lovely way to wrap up the podcast.
Chris Shigas Yeah. Well, if I have to look at at a silver lining here, the communications function is still important to corporate America. I think more and more communicators will be asked to have more specialties. Maybe the days are numbered, where a communicator says, Well, I just write content, or a communicator says, Well, I just pitched Media Relations. I think you're going to see more generalists. There's going to be an expectation that, oh, yeah, you need to know social media, and you need to be able to do speech writing, and you need to be able to reach out to tier one and you need to be able to do crisis communications.
Brad Grantham
And you need to do that all all doing a Facebook Live at the same time.
Chris Shigas
There you go. On some level, those people are hard to find. But if you're a pro and You have a wide variety of skill sets that's going to serve you well.
Brad Grantham I agree again, as we morph as an industry as the media, landscape changes, those who have those skill sets will be invaluable.
Chris Shigas Hey, Brad, thanks for spending time with us today. I really appreciate it and everyone at home remember, every crisis is an opportunity. Is this your moment? Can you make 2020 matter? I think you can. Now go get em'.
PR Wars Podcast: Power of persuasion
Jul 12, 2020
The word "persuasion" has a negative connotation, like a used car salesman manipulating you into something you don’t want. Can persuasion be used for good and what are the best ways to incorporate persuasion techniques in public relations? PR Wars podcast examines the power of persuasion.
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Announcer: It's time. Welcome to PR Wars! Coming at you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas
Chris Shigas: Hey everyone, thanks for joining us. I'm Chris Shigas. Welcome to PR Wars.
Are you good? I'm good. Thanks for asking. Hey, let me ask you something. Have you checked your social media feed? Is it a war zone? Do your Facebook friends? Do they have opinions? And have you seen that app called Next Door with your neighbors? You would think that'd be super friendly.
Whoa, there's a lot of talking. There's a lot of arguing. I don't know if there's a lot of listening. Is this communication?
I've been thinking a lot about one of my favorite books. It's called "How to Win Friends and Influence People" written by Dale Carnegie, way back in 1936. It's a classic. I read it every couple of years, just to remind myself the principles in that book that are still relevant today. I heard someone over talking I was actually eating breakfast in a Waffle House. I live in Atlanta, so there's a Waffle House on every corner.
I think for people who haven't read the book, The name of the book sounds kind of creepy. Not so much "how to make friends." It's more about the "and influence people" part. The word "influence" or the word "persuasion" have a negative connotation, kind of like a used car salesman manipulating you into something that you don't want... something that has a bad outcome. But you see, persuasion and influence are neutral words. They're not intrinsically good or bad.
You can use persuasion for good. If you want to end systemic racism. You need to communicate. You need to persuade people. You need to move someone from one level of understanding to a new level of understanding. If you want to combat climate change, if you want to keep people safe during a pandemic, I mean, we try to persuade our children to look both ways before they cross the street. Is that a bad thing? Of course not. That's using persuasion and influence for good. I want to convince my teenager to just say no to drugs... to not smoke cigarettes.
Now, persuasion is not arguing. Arguments don't work. Arguments entrench people in their position. And even if you manage to objectively win an argument, you really didn't win, because you are going to leave bad feelings or a bad perception in the other party once the communication is over. If arguments don't work, then how do we persuade?
The origins of thinking about this type of rhetoric goes way back before 1936 in Dale Carnegie's book, all the way back to ancient Greece and Aristotle, who had the rhetorical triangle. Aristotle said there were three ways to convince someone your point of view. Ethos, logos, and pathos. These are Greek words that Aristotle says, are the three ways that you can persuade someone to your way of thinking... to move their level of understanding from one place to the next level.
Now, let's look at these. Ethos is credibility. I am knowledgeable about this topic. So you should believe what I have to say. So if you go to a doctor and the doctor prescribes you medicine, then you trust that doctor and you take the medicine that doctor persuaded you to take this medicine. The doctor used his or her ethos to convince you that what they're saying is the right thing for you to do. You trust that doctor's judgment, because you trust that doctor's education to persuade you to do what that doctor wants.
Logos is the logical appeal. Okay, this is Mr. Spock on Star Trek. It's logical that if you keep a high credit score, you'll be able to get better interest rates and save money on a loan. The logical argument is designed to persuade you to pay your bills on time because that makes sense to you.
The third form of persuasion is pathos. Pathos is the emotional persuasion. This is playing on your emotions to do the right thing. You stay up late at night and you see the animal shelter Humane Society commercials with a puppy that needs your help. This is an emotional appeal to persuade you into an action.
If we look at these in the context of say, an issue like climate change, if you use ethos to make your position, you would be talking about how scientists are saying that climate change is real and likely caused by human behavior, and that the listeners should believe you because the scientists have ethos, they have credibility, they have education, they've looked into these things. The logos argument would explain how pollution impacts the greenhouse gases, how that affects weather patterns and we would look at more of the technical aspects of climate change, to logically make an argument about how human impact can alter the weather. The pathos argument would be the impact that these changes have on human life.
Now there's actually a fourth component that Aristotle brought up and that's called Kairos. Kairos kind of impacts all three of ethos, logos and pathos. Kairos is timing. Is it the right time for someone to be open to your message? There are times when someone is ready for a message. And there are times when people just are not ready. My wife is a teacher, and she talks about how important timing is for her students. Because sometimes her students go through the school day and they're in this fog and this haze. But, there are other times when she seizes the moment because she realizes the student is open for what she calls a "teachable moment." That means the Kairos is right. The timing is right for that student to accept what you have to say and to learn from it.
This ethos, logos and pathos. What does that mean for us as communicators? Each of these concepts affect different parts of your brain. So when you're creating a message for your company, challenge yourself, challenge yourself to use all three of these techniques to use ethos in your messaging to use logos and pathos.
Don't let your messages be all in one bucket. Don't let all your messages be emotional appeals. Don't let them all be logical like your Mr. Spock, use a mix. Have a complete toolkit of messages using credibility, using logic, using emotional appeal. Move perceptions and shape beliefs. Use that power of persuasion for good. Now, go get em'.
PR Wars Podcast: What am I searching for?
Jul 05, 2020
News magazines have fundamentally changed the way they select stories when they moved from print to online. Find out how to optimize your press release using Google Trends to capture more attention.
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Announcer: It's time. Welcome to PR wars coming to you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas: Everyone thank you for joining PR wars. This is Chris Shigas. How are you? Alright, you hanging in there? Yeah, moving forward, deciding what to do with your plans now that 2020 has been such a difficult year. And now we have to figure out how to move forward in all this, don't we? We have to figure out how to be proactive.
We're going to talk a little bit today about how news organizations are deciding which news to cover. They're receiving hundreds if not thousands of press releases from people like us, and they're deciding which press release should make the news. We're going to talk a little bit about how that has fundamentally changed over the past five years. This is going to blow your mind. This is something you really need to know if you're going to be successful in a proactive campaign.
I come from an old school background. I come from local television news decades ago. Every morning we would gather around a table of producers, the news director, and reporters. We would look at all the stories of the day that we could cover and make decisions based on how important we thought a particular story was. That old school newsworthiness test. And what happened at some point in the late 1990s, a lot of consultants came in and got news outlets to think about their target audiences. Who were they trying to attract in the Nielsen ratings? What were advertisers buying so that your news organization could be successful? And it really did fundamentally change how news stories were covered and which news stories we decided to cover as a news organization.
Well, what we've seen in the past five years has fundamentally changed that. When you look at the amount of news that's out there. Yet all we hear are that news organizations are struggling, and they're letting reporters go. The press pool is shrinking and shrinking. But yet, a lot of outlets have changed the way they publish, and how they reach you... a news consumer.
No area has the change been greater than in news magazines. In the old days, you used to get a Time magazine or you would get a Newsweek. You would read through it for the content and the stories and you'd read the variety of stories in the magazine. Well, that's not how we consume news anymore. People don't buy magazines. Lots of magazines have even stopped publishing the magazine in print and they've moved to online.
Yet, it's not like consumers now go to a website, like US News and World Report or Business Week and read all the stories on that website. That's not how it works. Now we receive our news through our news feeds. What is somebody sharing through social media? Or if I'm interested in a topic, and I search it on Google, which news stories pop up based on that search query? This is the new environment that publishers are trying to capture. And it's all about clicks.
So if you are an editor, and you're trying to decide what stories to put in your publication, it's not based as a collection of stories, but it's each individual story now... because that's how people are consuming news. You have to make a decision as an editor. If you're going to cover a story... Will that story ever be shared or be searched for? And how will that story be found?
Now, first of all, we know that there are fewer reporters in the world today. When you create media lists to put out your press releases, you can tell if your media list is more than three months old... I bet you you're getting a lot of bounce backs. That's why we have to keep our media list up to date and fresh.
Yet, you see fewer and fewer reporters who work for a publication, but more and more freelancers who are being paid by the story, or they're being paid by the word. And they're not focused just on one publication. They might have multiple publications. Maybe there's a writer who writes for Forbes, but they also write for The New Yorker.
And we're seeing this more and more and more. So here's what's going to blow your mind how a news publication online has to select their stories. A freelance reporter may say, I have a couple of really good story ideas, and pitch that magazine editor. The magazine will then take those story ideas and see how many searches are being done on that story. And then choose between the stories for the ones that rank the best in search engine optimization. And then, they pay the freelancer, by the story or by the word to write a story based on those search engine optimization results. Because if a magazine pays for a very interesting story, but no one is searching for that story, then that story will never be read. And that magazine won't be able to sell advertising based on those views.
Now, it's critical that you look at your own press releases, and decide are they search engine optimized? Are people actually looking for the content that you're putting out there. There are a lot of sites that can help you get a handle on this. The one I like to use is called Google Trends. And Google Trends provides you this information for free. You can put in the subject matter of your press release. You can see how many times it's being searched for, and the exact queries that people are putting into Google search to come up with this information. All of this is valuable data. You can compare it to other topics.
And what does this mean for you? Let's just say you are doing public relations for a medical device company and you have a new product. You may not want to use the name of this product in your headline as the hook, right? Even though this announcement is for a new product. What may get more search results are perhaps the medical conditions that this product treats. And let's just say this product treats more than one condition, you may want to look and see which condition is being searched for the most. Not only will you get more pickup on your press release, but more people will actually search and find your information... because more people are googling for that query.
This is a 180 degree change from how we selected news stories in the past. This is where it's going. These publications have to stay alive. They stay alive by selling advertising. They sell advertising by selling clicks and views. So the stories that they publish have to be shareable with clicks and views about topics that people are searching for now.
So the next time you're reading a press release, think about search engine optimization. Run some searches. Run some tests yourself. Find out what people are searching for. If you're able to highlight the topics that people are searching for, you're going to have more freelancers interested in your story. Freelancers are going to be able to sell your story to their news magazines, and you're gonna get more coverage and reach more customers.
Now, go get em'!
PR Wars Podcast: What's in it for me?
Jun 29, 2020
Why do people want to pay attention to you? PR Wars takes a look at reader benefit and how that will give your press releases more impact.
Listen to PR Wars on:
Announcer: It's time. Welcome to PR Wars. Coming to you live from Atlanta, Georgia. Now, here is your host, Chris Shigas.
Chris Shigas: Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us on PR Wars. I'm Chris Shigas. How you doing? How's everybody doing? All right, you watching the news, you're reading the news? See anything good? Eh.
Let me ask you a question. Why are you watching the news? There are specific reasons why people want to read your information. This is critical when you're drafting a press release. You want to know why no one's picking up your press release. It's certainly important to figure out why someone would care about what you have to say. I call this viewer/reader benefit. Viewer/ reader benefit, what's in it for me to listen to you?
It's an interesting way to look at things. So often when we write press releases, we're thinking about ourselves, our companies... a latest news announcement, a latest product. Isn't our company great? Right? But what's that missing?
Maybe people in your company care about that. But what's in it for the customer, the consumer, the person you're communicating to? Are you just talking about yourself? Are you that boring guy at the party who spends all the time talking about himself? And nobody cares, nobody wants to listen to you anymore. So how do we move our communication away from self grandiosity and move into something relevant that our target audiences want to hear? The trick is we have to turn this paradigm around. We have to make it more about our target audience and less about us.
Just imagine you have maybe a mom and she's getting dinner ready; telephone's ringing; the dog is barking; kids are crying; dinner's boiling over on the stove. She has all these distractions in her life... a competition for message and attention. And what's going to make her say, "everybody stop. I've got to see the story on the news."
Well, the answer is a viewer/reader benefit. What's in it for me? Americans are incredibly narcissistic. I don't care about what you have to say, unless it helps me. Core motives. What's in it for me. You can describe a core motive in a three word sentence. Things like "protect my family;" "make me money;" "improve my health." These are things I care about the list goes on. But you'll hear these themes when you watch television news, or read a newspaper. You'll see them come up again and again and again. They'll even tease it. They'll say "tonight at 11. We'll show you how to put more money in your wallet." Wow. Gotta watch that. Viewer/reader benefit.
Our press releases should be oozing with viewer/reader benefit. I care about what you have to say, because it's going to benefit me. Let's say you have a ribbon cutting on a new building. Oh boy. I'll tell you journalists love to cover ribbon cuttings. Just kidding. So how can we make this relevant to a core motive? What's in it for me? All right, well, if you're opening up a new facility, that's great for you. But how is that relevant to the people in your community? And does it touch a core motive? Of course, it touches a core motive. Maybe, I can get a job there. I could make money. "Make me money" is a core motive, right. So maybe we turn our press release into from talking about ourselves, to talking about how we're bringing jobs to our communities. And now it's relevant to me and now I care about what you have to say.
Every business has viewer/reader benefit. Even if you're a B2B business, you still exist to help make the world a better place. Every business produces a product or a service that helps helps improve the lives of people and the human condition. Now I know what you're thinking, you're like, "Look, I watch the news. And there's more to it than this viewer reader benefit stuff." And you're right.
There are three types of news stories. One is the reader viewer benefit that we talked about. Two, is hard news. We'll see hard news on TV, there's a explosion in in Afghanistan or there's a crime committed in your community or, or something like that. The third type of news story is water cooler. This is just what people are talking about. It's interesting. And that makes it newsworthy. You know, why is Justin Bieber newsworthy? Or the latest on Beyonce or Taylor Swift? Right? Things that people are talking about. So that becomes newsworthy.
What I find when working with different corporations is that sometimes they want to go straight to the watercooler. What we do is so interesting. What we do is so cool, that it's newsworthy. Our product is so whiz-bang. that's worthy of news.
When you look at those three types of news stories, viewer reader benefit, hard news and water cooler... That's the order of the easiest to place as a PR professional, to the most difficult to place. If your press releases oozing with reader viewer benefit. That's a lot easier to place than a hard news. Is your story really hard news? Does it achieve that level. And watercooler is the most difficult to place of all. I mean really is your product that amazing that people are just talking about it. Does this water cooler story reached the level of Miley Cyrus twerking?
Let's flip that around. How does this improve their lives, not your company's life but your audience's lives. And let's start from there, you will see better traction, more pickup more relevance. And really the metric that matters is moving the needle with your target audience, making them interested in the great things your company does. So keep that in mind as you produce your next press release. Viewer/reader benefit and what's in it for me.
PR Wars Podcast : Do the right thing
Jun 24, 2020
What guides your decision-making during a crisis? PR Wars looks at crisis communication leadership.
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