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    Education

    Points In Between

    How does it feel to come to America as a young person? This podcast explores what happens when immigrants and visitors experience our biggest shared American institution: school.

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    Latest Episodes:
    Episode 10: American Aug 29, 2018
    Show notes

    This final episode of Points In Between explores two questions: Do you feel like you're American and, if you do, what does that mean to you?


    Credits Aug 28, 2018
    Show notes

    Sights

    The Points In Between artwork was created by Kurt Stoeckel.

    Sounds

    Points In Between features sounds made available under the Creative Commons license via freesounds.com:

    Intro

    • classroom with students and bell
    • school yard
    • school hallway ambience
    • school bell

    Outro

    • high school exterior with bus
    • testing in a math class

    Thank You!

    Many thanks to the people who participated in interviews for this project!


    Your Story Aug 27, 2018
    Show notes

    Do you have a story of moving to the United States and attending an American school? Record your own audio answer to one of the interview questions below and post it on social media using the hashtag #PointsInBetween.

    1. How did you find out you would be moving to the United States? Did you take part in making the decision or did it come as a surprise to you? What do you remember about leaving home? How old were you when you arrived in the US?

    2. Walk us through a typical day of school in your country of origin.

    3. How did you think the United States was going to look? What, if anything, surprised you when you arrived?

    4. Can you describe your first day of school in the US?

    5. What would surprise your US classmates about school in your country of origin?

    6. Describe your interactions with a teacher before you came to the US. Do teachers and students behave the same way in your US school(s) as they did where you came from?

    7. What language(s) did you speak when you arrived in the United States? Do you feel like you are a different person in the different languages you speak?

    8. What kinds of things do you change about your behavior as you move from home to school? Is your home culture very different from your school culture?

    9. How did you make your first American-born friend? And if you haven't yet made an American-born friend, why do you think that is?

    10. Do you feel like you are American? Do you want to feel American? And if so (or if not), what does "American" mean to you?


    Transcript - Introduction Aug 27, 2018
    Show notes

    Points In Between: Introduction

    It’s time for a little listening comprehension quiz. I’m going to play you clips of three people speaking. Your job is to figure out what they have in common. Okay?

    Here’s the first one.

    “In Spain we actually went home for lunch so I never had eaten at school...”

    Maybe that wasn’t enough. Let me play a little bit more from her.

    “ … Salisbury steaks and mashed potatoes with gravy which I had never seen. I had also had never seen peanut butter and they would make these like big peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. All of it was completely foreign and interesting to me. And I remember being the only kid who was eating it like looking around to be like this and look around and everybody else is like sticking their nose up at it. But I loved it!”

    Okay. Now, the second one.

    “I didn't even know like what a water fountain was or how to use one and no one told me [sound of water fountain in background] I just kind of like hung out in the hallway when I was thirsty and try to like watch other kids and which button they pushed.”

    And the third.

    “One time I get off the class and needed to go to a different class in the third floor, but I was just lost and I'm looking at my schedule. They just give it to me but I can't even read it. It's not even in Arabic.”

    This isn’t a short-answer quiz – it’s multiple choice. Here are your options:

    Option A: All of the speakers spent part of their childhood outside the US.

    Option B: All of the speakers – at some point – attended school in the US.

    Option C: All of the speakers faced puzzles and had to figure out how things work.

    Or Option D: All of the above.

    Are you ready to check your answer? It’s D, all of the above. You just heard from Cat, who began her schooling in Spain, Selena, who started out in Bosnia, and Ra’ouf, who grew up in Yemen. They all got to know the US, and American culture, by going to school here.

    Why focus on the school experience?

    You know that feeling of being in a classroom on the last day of school, right before the last bell, waiting for summer break to begin? [Classroom noises, children yelling] You could be playing a game, or taking an exam, maybe cleaning out your desk – whatever. The point is, you know the feeling. You can recall that moment.

    [Sound of class bell ringing]

    That moment, with all of its cultural associations, is part of our shared national experience.

    In the United States, in 2017, over 57 million kids experienced that moment. 57 million bodies each had the feeling of folding into a classroom chair. That’s 57 million people, give or take, navigating hallways, figuring out whether to go to the cafeteria and [sound of crowded cafeteria] – if they go – where to sit, trying to recall an answer on a test. [sound of pencil on paper]

    That’s a lot of shared experiences. And I’m not even counting the 20 million people who attended American colleges that same year.

    This is why schools are sites of conflict over everything from history curriculum to dress code to sex ed. The stakes are high. If you can dictate what happens in schools, in a very real sense you’re choosing which shared experiences will make up the building blocks of our cultural identity.

    I spent 18 years teaching high school social studies, so daily conversations about education were a part of my life for a long time. I’m interested in those high-stakes choices. But I’m also interested in what our more subtle day-to-day school activities and interactions say about us. I think we can learn a lot by looking at ourselves through fresh eyes.

    That’s why I reached out to Cat, Selena, Ra’ouf, and 20 other people who first got introduced to America through school. Those 23 individuals come from different economic backgrounds, they have different first languages, and different paths to the US. They ranged in age from 14 to just over 40, but they have one thing in common: they all attended American schools.

    I wanted to know what a regular day of school was like back in their country of origin and how it felt to leave home. I asked them about their expectations before they came, and if the reality stacked up to their imagined America. They told me about their first day of school in the US and compared schools here to the ones they left behind. They talked about learning English, navigating American culture, and missing home. Finally, I asked them if – after all their shared American experiences - they feel American.

    This wasn’t just about understanding these 23 individuals. School is our biggest, most formative shared institution. Newcomers see things in school that those of us born here take for granted and ask questions we don’t think to ask. They can teach us about who we are and what we value. And if you are, right now, going through this transition – if you are a newcomer whose introduction to the US is happening through school – I hope you find it interesting to compare your own experiences to the ones offered here.

    I owe my 23 interviewees a tremendous debt of gratitude for sharing their thoughtful – and often very personal – accounts with me. To preserve their privacy, some of them opted to use a pseudonym, rather than their real name. I tried to represent them fairly and accurately. I hope I did.

    So. The next ten episodes will give you a chance to get to know the people I met and, in the process, better understand all of us - the people living here together in the US.

    I hope you’ll stick with me. The show is called Points In Between.

    I’m Shane Carter.


    Transcript for Episode 1: Leaving Home Aug 25, 2018
    Show notes

    Points In Between: Episode 1Leaving Home[Intro sounds: kids yelling, door opening, footsteps in hallway, classroom voices, bell ringing to start class.]You’re listening to Points In Between.This is Episode 1: Leaving HomeShane: Can you just introduce yourself by name in …what is your first language? Shiraj: My first language is Oriya. We’re starting in the middle of the story. Just so you can picture the scene: two of us are sitting at a table in a public library in the Bay Area. It’s winter break. The space is quiet, but it’s actually pretty full of patrons. There’s a guy sleeping in a chair not far from where we’re sitting.Shiraj: [introduces himself in Oriya] This is pretty awkward.I’m talking with a 17-year-old who attends a big public school near San Jose. He has kindly agreed to help me out with this project by talking with me on tape.Shiraj: Okay, my name is Shiraj and I’m from India. I was born in Bangalore.Shiraj and many other people I interviewed have had radically different experiences, but they all spent part of their childhood outside the United States and they’ve all attended school in the US. Which means they have something else in common, too: a story about leaving home. It’s the middle – not the beginning – of their tale and each story hints at what came before and also frames what comes after. This episode of Points in Between is about that experience of transition. So back to Shiraj. When he was in fourth grade, Shiraj went off to attend a 160-year-old British-style boarding school in India. It took him a while, but once he adjusted he loved it.Shiraj: And there was not a single person I don't know in the school. Even a twelth grader and fourth grader, they interact. It was so… it was so easy to speak about yourself and there's no one to judge you maybe. And the teachers are… because we lived there, we spend a lot of time with them. They're like our parents. They can – they help you. They become your…that’s your second home.Each year ended with an extravaganza, with alumni returning to visit the school, famous speakers, and a performance viewed by the whole community.Shiraj: And then there used to be this Sunset Sensation where you either play with fire or maybe sometimes it was hula hoop and then they would watch you either do fire playing with fire or maybe lights or maybe there used to be those sticks…girls used to dance at that time. There's like…there used to be like more than a hundred people more than a 100 people I guess. So it looked really beautiful from top.The end of his sophomore year seemed like any other end-of-term for him and his class – or “batch” as he calls it.Shiraj: And yeah that happened and I went … we just had dinner, like our whole batch had dinner and then I said, “I'm going to the US for these holidays because just to…because my parents are moving and I'm just going as a holiday.But once he arrived in California to visit with his family, the situation changed.Shiraj: And then we started talking, most my parents friends and my relatives and my family said that it would be easier for you to go to college here if you study here. It's a good exposure for you. I had no… I didn't want to. I mean my parents did not force me. But the way that they convinced me. They also talked to a teacher who was in our school. He also said it's better to study in the United States because it's more exposure and whatever and then it was kind of my choice. It was not my parents’ choice…the way everyone convinced me. I mean, I kind of had no choice.This conflict, between the practical benefits of opportunities in America and the deep emotional ties to home, showed up in conversation after conversation. This trade-off can’t really be separated from a new student’s feelings about school in America. Decision made, Shiraj had to tell his friends that their end of term celebration had actually been his last day of school with them.Shiraj: So and then there's like this WhatsApp, everyone’s there, and I was like, “Guys I'm leaving because… I have to. I mean it's better for me to study here and then yeah. I mean yeah, our farewell wasn’t.... We never knew I was leaving. Also most of my stuff was in my school, like my clothes, and then I told my batch mates that, “You can have them as a memory, as my remembrance, you can have that.” And then my jerseys…I used to be a sports person and I used to play every sport so all my jerseys were leftovers so all my friends had it. I told them keep it from me. And then they kept it and then after like two or three months or something they wore it and then they posted it on Facebook and they said, “For Shiraj.” It was so sweet.In most of the accounts I heard, the process of leaving took months and kids were aware of – or even intimately involved in – the process.Caroline: [Introduces herself in Czech]Caroline spoke to me from San Diego, where she’s a college student. She left Prague, Czech Republic, at age 14. Her parents were divorced and she and her mom lived in a 2-room apartment. Her mother wanted to make a new start. Caroline: She's always been a housewife she's always been at home. I've had her for myself half my life and that's just what she loves to do. She loves to take care of the home. So that was kind of the goal. We were first supposed to move to London because she was, she met a guy that lived there and she hung out with him a couple times and it was looking very promising and everything was fine. And then something happened and...I forget what the story was. She went over there and I guess it didn't work. Anyway, like within another year she ended up seeing somebody else who was from San Diego. So just like, we were kind of already in the mentality of like OK like we could do this, we could move like... there's nothing here really holding us. She just said you know, “Let's do it.” That's when she start slowly started kind of cutting ties and everything and just packing and bank accounts, just doing all the very official stuff that took a really long time.Unlike Shiraj, for whom leaving was practical but painful, Caroline looked forward to the move. But her mother told her to keep the plans to herself.Caroline: But I just wasn't supposed to go out and tell everybody until like it was confirmed that we were going the next week or something. So I remember, sometime like near the end of 8th grade we were hanging out of the classroom up in a park somewhere. And me and my best friend were talking to our class teacher and some other one. And that's when I told them like, “Yeah, so, we're moving to America. I'm not going to be here next year.” And that’s when it started kicking in really when I was like, wow like, I'm not going to go here anymore. I'm not going to speak Czech most of my time. As a frustrated teen who, by her own description, wasn’t the most popular kid in school, Caroline saw the move as an opportunity.Caroline:It was exciting once It sort of really started kicking in that I was going to leave all that behind. I was excited to have a new chance sort of, at this whole I don't know... everything and just school because that's the primary focus of life at that age is just so you know because you go to school all the time that's where your life is - to just have friends, to do well. I wanted that second start. The pursuit of Happiness, as Jefferson called it, is a common component of the decision to leave home and seek out a new life. It’s real. It does happen. But other times leaving is an escape, not a pursuit. One that is intended – initially anyway - to be temporary.For example:Roya – I was born in Kabul Afghanistan…Roya left Afghanistan with her mother and sisters at age 11. Her dad had passed away when she was 6.Roya – [Introducing herself in Farsi]The year Roya turned 11 and left Kabul was the same year that Soviet forces withdrew from Afghanistan and what had been an anti-Soviet war began to turn into a civil war. Roya – My older sister lives in America. She was convincing us to leave Kabul and it wasn't… the situation wasn't getting better. That's the time when the bomb rockets start exploding in the city in Afghanistan. The buses were blowing [up] the movie theaters, just… you know. And I lost a friend from school that she was at the bus and that she lost her life. It was a bomb. And then I remember our teacher took all of us to her house. We went to see the parents. I thought that was very…that always stays with me, as a kid to go, you know, to a family's house with a bunch of school [kids] just to let them know that we're here. So the situation got so bad because they start sending blind rockets in Kabul. So that's the time my mom's said, “OK it's time for us to go.” Leaving required strategy and resources.Roya: My mom had a lot of girls so the situation of leaving Kabul to go in the rough route, like if you go and Pakistan or Iran - the smuggling area - it was very dangerous. A lot a women were being raped, snatched. So the whole situation was really scary, so my mom was decided that she would not take all her girls and just doing this smuggling way. If she would leave, she would leave in a flight, you know like a safe way. Because you hear so many horrible stories what happened to families who left. Their car would be bombed because people would think they were smuggling weapons or something and the government would blow up the buses or the trucks because they didn't know what was coming or what's leaving the city. Because still the government was controlling and wouldn't let anybody leave the country because it was kind of a sign of weakness if people are fleeing out. Roya’s mother found a way to bring her children to India, by airplane.Roya: …and then let the government know the reason why you're going. See, usually because India has the best medical facilities so a lot of people go for treatment in India. So everybody kind of used that token of like, “Oh we're sick we're going to India.” They filled out forms for passports and visas and then Roya, 11-years-old, dropped them off at the passport office near her school.Roya –I did initial process of getting that passport. I'm so proud of myself. [giggles]Even with their passports and plane tickets, the family still had to maintain the fiction that their trip to New Delhi was temporary.Roya: So my mom with my other sisters they left first, I stayed behind with my younger sister and then my aunt was watching us for three months, and then I got the visa and then I end up going there, joining my mom. The irony is, it wasn’t entirely a lie. Roya’s mom was not trying to start a new life in another country.Roya: Her ideal part was to just stay for a few years when the war gets done we move back. But that was her, she was hoping that the war is okay then we don't have to go anywhere where you know she wants to go back because it's her whole family is there. Her brother her sisters like her whole entire life because we didn't... we just basically pack our backpack and left. We left everything behind. So it wasn't like for my mom was like… she didn't really detach herself saying like, “We're fleeing we're not coming back.” She always like had this hope that she's coming back.But if you know anything about what’s happened in Afghanistan, you know things didn’t calm down. Roya: And she lost the hope because it was like everybody's leaving. She keep hearing all these bad news, people are dying. So it was like, OK. And then that's the time my older sister, she sponsored us, she brought us here in America.About 4 years after Roya came to CA, the Taliban took control of Afghanistan. She and her family were here to stay.Our next account of leaving home comes from a 19-year-old college student currently attending school in Vermont.Omar: I am Omar Al-Sayeed from Aleppo, Syria.Like Roya, Omar didn’t come straight from Syria to the United States. First, he went to the United World Colleges to complete the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme, which is a pre-collegiate degree. UWC has campuses in 17 countries and each class is made up of students from around the world in a kind of conscious effort to promote international peace and global competency among its students. As I said, this is a story of leaving home. Omar is one of many people whose journey has multiple steps. Also, if you haven’t been paying attention to the events in Syria for the past few years, this would be a good place to pause and look up the Battle of Aleppo, between 2012 and 2016. Context is important. Omar begins by talking about his decision to apply to UWC rather than trying to enter Germany as a refugee.Omar: My primary reason was basically just leaving the country. Was taking a ticket out, one way ticket out of the country, and that's it. Because that last year was the year when we, my family, decided to leave the country. We were… because we waited for about five years. And like every year every family in Syria in Aleppo especially was like, “OK we hope that this year it will finish something will change. You never know.” But then after five years we kind of realized that this is going to take longer and it's unbearable. So we decided to leave. But for me I was like, “This is this is one way of leaving and this is actually the best way of leaving.” Because the thing is that I knew since that time that when you arrive at, let's say Germany, they wouldn't just put you where you were and you would continue your life perfectly. You would need to struggle with the language first and then you would be put back three or four classes and then you would need to start all over. So I knew that UWC was like basically a perfect ticket out of the country. So I applied for it. I got in and … that was basically actually my last time in Syria, that time when I left to Armenia. But, I mean, obviously Omar’s parents and siblings couldn’t go off to UWC with him. So that brings us to another frequent theme from stories of leaving home, which is separation from family – either geographic, or emotional, or both. For a lot of newcomer students, an American school experience comes at the cost of familial relationships.Omar: And at the same time my family left to Germany, where they are now. So basically if I wasn't accepted to UWC I would be also now a refugee in Germany. My mom always knew that like I applied to the school and I think she didn't really want to believe it. And it came… it boiled down to the last day, like the last the last day because they left like three days before my leaving. And it like ended on the door of my house. I think everyone was crying and they were all leaving together and leaving me. That was like the first time in the history of the family where one member would be left back and everyone else would leave. And we knew that it might be a long time where we see each other again and that was… that was a really… I don't know emotional moment where like my mom is saying goodbye to me. And she knew that… To be honest like we knew that something… like I was more sad because I knew that something might happen with them on the way and they are going on the same road that you always see in the news where people are drowning and people are dying out of cold, hunger, and many other dangers. So for me that was like, “Oh, that might be the last time.” And not for one or two of them, for all of them. So that was why it was really, really hard I would say, at that moment.I taught high school for a long time and I had a lot of conversations with anxious parents, worried about their kids navigating everything from unfamiliar public transit to overnight school trips. As I listened to Omar’s story, I tr…

    Full show notes at the publisher

    Transcript for Episode 2 - A Day in the Life Aug 24, 2018
    Show notes

    Points In Between: Episode 2A Day in the Life[Intro sounds: kids yelling, door opening, footsteps in hallway, classroom voices, bell ringing to start class.]You’re listening to Points In Between.This is Episode 2: A Day in the LifeLet’s begin with a visualization exercise.Picture a school you attended. Or, maybe you’re in it right now. How do you get there each day? Is the school fenced off from the rest of the world, or open? What does it sound like right before classes begin? Where do you sit during the times when you’re sitting, and how much space do you have to move around? A lot of people want you to spend your day there. So, is it, you know, a nice place to be?Think about a full school day. What time do you start school, when do you finish classes, and how do you spend the rest of the day? Do you cross paths with different classmates as you move from room to room through your day, or do you pass the whole time as part of a single group? And what do you do all day?This episode of Points In Between looks at the day-to-day contours of school days outside the US. It turns out, a “regular day” of school means very different things in different places. There are innumerable versions of normal out there. Some of them will sound familiar, some won’t. This episode also introduces a mix of new voices – some of whom immigrated to the US and a few of whom are here for shorter terms as international students. As in the last episode, sometimes they introduce themselves in their first language before you hear them speak in English. We’re going to start with Juliana, a 21-year-old college exchange student from Brazil. Juliana – [Introduction in Portuguese]She attended a private school in Brasilia, where she and her family lived.Juliana: the first thing that you wouldn notice was basically fences all around the school. And I don't know if in America it's like this. I tend to think that it's really open like the campus and all that kind of stuff. But in Brazil we always have like the fences. And then once you get inside you will see everyone wearing the uniform with the name of the school … and yeah you had very strict rules like, oh you can't wear shorts at this size, very short or anything like that, and then you would go to class and one thing that is interesting is you would stay inside the class while the professor would come there and teach. And then he would leave and then another professor would come. Compare this to the picture of school that you just conjured in your mind at the beginning of the show. Is Juliana right that your school is open to the outside world? Have you ever worn a school uniform? Or pushed the limits of the dress-code? And what about the room where you learn math? Do you think of it as your room that the teacher visits or is it the teacher’s room? Our next stop is over three thousand miles away, across the Atlantic, in The Gambia, a country on the coast of West Africa.Lingerr: My name is Lingerr Senghor.Lingerr’s answer to “Where are you from?” is, as she says, “mildly complicated.”Lingerr: When I was five my parents moved back to The Gambia, West Africa, which is where they're from. I lived there until 15 and then I moved to England for the last few years of high school and then I came back to the United States. So I'm an American citizen and I only got my Gambian citizenship in my mid teens. But I see myself as being from The Gambia.The school Lingerr attended in The Gambia was founded by her grandfather. I asked her what I would see if I visited the school.Lingerr: I mean, a lot of …Gambians. So a lot of people in uniform being really loud and friendly with each other and running around. Buildings that looked pretty underdeveloped compared to buildings you might be used to if you're from a more affluent part of the United States or even just like the middle class or even like a lower class part of the United States. Not many paved paths or anything like that, so a lot of sand a lot of dirt, which we would walk cross to get to our classes. Classrooms with, you know, actual chalkboards and things like that and, like, old wooden desks. And - this always got to me because I was a really big reader when I was younger - but our library was full of donated “books for Africa” books and it’s so many romance novels! And I'm like 11 and I'm trying to find stuff to read. And at this point now I've read so many hundreds of romance novels. Because that’s all we got…and expired textbooks.Lingerr left the Gambia to finish high school in Hertfordshire, England – best known as the home of the fictional Bennet family from Pride and Prejudice. That same year, a three-hour car ride from Lingerr’s new home in England, Siobhan was about to finish high school in Cardiff, Wales. Four years ago, after college in Wales, she came to the US to attend graduate school. But – you know - life doesn’t always go to plan. In school, she met someone, got married, and instead of heading back to Wales, embarked on a life in the US. I asked her to describe a school scene she thought any kid from Cardiff would recognize.Siobhan: A large building built in the 1960s or 70s and it be raining…they're usually very large. Mine had 2000 children. It's 11 to 18 so a cross-section of kids is is much greater than here so you have people who look like really like children up to fully grown adults. Um, uniforms. They all have ties or polo shirts that all match the school colors, but still sort of hectic, not particularly orderly. Loud. Boisterous. Shane: And did you have sports associated with school?Siobhan: Yes somewhat. Not very seriously. We ...I played hockey field hockey and we would have practice twice a week during lunchtime so that only allowed us about 45 minutes of practice twice a week and then we would have one game a week. There wasn't there wasn't a league. We weren't really playing in a league. It wasn't taken as seriously by any means. The practice that we had wasn't even really training. I'm not entirely sure our teachers knew how to play hockey. I will say in my school they were much more serious about boys rugby and so they had something a little bit more akin to sports here. But that's fairly unusual. But then, also, there’s this.Shane: Would you introduce yourself in Welsh?Siobhan: [Introduction in Welsh]Americans often conflate the country of England with the UK – the United Kingdom, using the names interchangeably. Wales was conquered by England over 700 years ago and annexed by the English in the 16th century. But still, Wales is not England, and Siobhan is not English…. You’re probably wondering why I’m talking about this. Siobhan: There are two streams of education in Wales. One is an English language stream and the other is a Welsh language stream. You learn exactly the same things but just the language in which you learn it is different. My parents decided to send me to the Welsh language stream so when I was 3 I went to a - having come from an English speaking home - I went to a Welsh nursery school where it was just immersion. And by the time I was four and a half I was fluent and then continued my education in Welsh until I was 18. Shane: So your parents didn't speak it but you had all your education in Welsh. Siobhan:Exactly that's very common in Wales. It's becoming more and more common for a couple of reasons. A lot of people like the idea of growing the language but the other thing is originally Welsh language schools were slightly better quality so it was… you were getting a state education, it was free but it was slightly better than most of the English language schools. And so that’s really why my parents chose it.This was a striking contrast to Shiraj’s description of his school in India and Lingerr’s description of her school in The Gambia – both former parts of the British Empire. In both of those, English was still the language of instruction. The same is also true of many International Schools today.Tobias: I’m from Germany so the actual way to pronounce my name is To-bee-us.Tobias’ father is from Germany and his mother comes from India. He was born in Germany, lived briefly in the US, went back Germany again, and then lived in Belgium for most of his schooling. Tobias: When I moved to Belgium I was in an all very international school. We represented over 75 different countries. Because of its location in relation to embassies, Tobias’ school had a large American student presence. Tobias: So there were very, like, what you would consider quote unquote American features of high school. We had prom. We had J.V. and varsity basketball. If you would go into the gym it would look a lot like the kind of gym that you would see in an American school, you know, with the banners hanging on the top of the arena. You would see, you know, Class of 2018, winners of these trophies. MVP was this player. So, you felt a lot like you were at an American public school.In the introduction to this podcast I talked about the feeling of that moment right before summer break begins as one of the shared experiences produced by schools. Memories of prom night and the feeling of trying out to play a varsity sport are two other, pretty widely understood cultural referents in American schools. It’s interesting that Tobias’ International School picked these traditions to reproduce for their students.If you work in education, you already know that discussions about the school schedule can lead to pitched battles. Everyone connected to a school, from student to parent or guardian, to teacher to administrator - everyone feels the power of that schedule because it’s the frame that defines the institution. It turns out, there’s a pretty wide breadth of options around the world.You’re going to hear again from Juliana.She’ll be joined by XuHui and Mia, exchange students from China, and Angel, from Taiwan. XuHui attended a public boarding school, while Mia and Angel each attended regular public day schools.XuHui: My name is XuHui and I’m from Nanjing, China.Mia: Hi, I’m Mia. I’m an exchange student in Berkeley and I’m from China.Angel: My name is Angel and I come from Taiwan.Consider the differences in their daily schedules and what they’re doing during that time. Juliana: Yeah, a typical day would be getting up at probably around 6:15 in the morning and then arriving at school 7:15 and then staying there until 11:40 and then going home, having lunc,h and then studying in the afternoon and then going to bed.In Brazil, students typically attend schools in shifts. This way, the same building and resources can be used for two or three groups of students. Even in affluent schools, where buildings don’t do double or triple-duty, the same schedule is often maintained.XuHui: The typical day for me is I wake up approximate at 6:00 AM, I grab some food, after that I went to the classroom and… yeah… the whole day through basically I'm in the classroom and basically I went to my dormitory at 11:00 PM and I will I will read some book in my bed. And then I go to sleep. Mia:Normal Chinese students they want to get a good college. So like typical high school day would be like… study all day. Yeah, from morning to night, actually. Basically like you stay at school a whole day.Angel:You have to arrive in the class before 7:30 AM and 5:00 PM you can leave the school. And you just sit in the same class room in the whole day and the teacher would come to our classroom to teach. So we don't have to change our classroom… just some like music and P.E. class we have to change the classroom.Shane:And how many students were in each class, each classroom?Angel:Near 40. Mia:Sixty. More than 60 XuHui: 40Mia:We don’t like that kind of…much out of school activities and like we have restricted of resources. We don't have like theater or movies or sports practice. China now invests more… like focuses more about activities or, like, other things. But we still focus on study, like you know, basic study. Shane:When you said you were in the classroom all day and then you went back to your room at 11:00 PM, were you in the classroom from like 7:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night? XuHui:Basically we will have breaks between two classes and you can choose to go but I prefer to stay in the classroom… yeah we have a lot of thing to do because we need to face the Chinese gaokao which is a really important thing for us and what we need to do is just do those exercises all day long. Shane:So you just study study so you can pass the gaokao so you can go to college. XuHui:Yeah… not pass gaokao, but excel in gaokao. Yeah I mean…yeah that's a phenomenon because it's a really important entrance exam for us to go to a higher level education and basically it's only way for us to go in. They may have shorter daily school hours, but Brazilian students also face a college entrance exam. This is challenging for kids who need to work outside of their comparatively short official school hours.Juliana: And then sometimes we would do like extra curricular activities such as… they’re called “cursinho” which is basically preparing you for the big exam for college, because in order for you to get to college you need to pass this exam… it's like… if you get a good grade you will, you will get into the college that you want.Shane:And did you like it? Angel:[laughs] Uh…OK. I didn't think of this because it's like I was forced to do that. I can say I like it because it's like with your classmate you can build a deeper friendship. But of course it's kind of...um... all of us are like oppressed by the education system. Yeah we're stuck in the same classroom. But it led us to be like long term and deeper friendship. One of my frustrations, as a teacher, was hearing arguments that went like this: “Well, if teachers or schools would just do X, then student would do Y.” Of course nobody likes to be criticized, so that’s part of it, I acknowledge. But buried in that sort of comment is also this weird erasure of students as people with desires, opinions, and basic human agency. Schools around the world bring a lot of pressure to bear on students to get them to act in particular ways. But inside those structures around the world, students – of course also – have individual feelings about school and they make choices.Simon: I’m Simon I go to Homestead High SchoolSimon has experienced two different school systems.Simon: I was actually born in Korea. But then I spent most of my elementary school years here in America, from like…I think from preschool to fifth grade and then I moved to Korea back because of my dad's job and in Korea I think lived for about four years doing just middle school stuff and then I came back from my high school education. I came back in ninth grade and I've been here since. I lived in apartment that was literally two minutes away from school and there was a school basically within the apartment complexes. So everyone was basically going to the same school in the apartment complex.So Korean school in general it's really, really different. You're in one classroom and teachers come to you. Teachers…your math comes in one day, like one period, and you have like 10 minutes after every single period. Then you have lunch. And it's like that.And as soon as school ended, I see, you know, half the kids take a bus to somewhere and I was like, “What's going on?” And I realized that they're going to school outside of school. Like basically classes, tutors these kind of like cram schools basically to go learn more or learn more extensively about what they are what we just learned in class and it was just really confusing because I thought there was everything to learn in school but obviously the other parents think not. And I think…huge shout out to my mom for not making me par…

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    Transcript for Episode 3 - What Did You Expect? Aug 23, 2018
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    Points In Between: Episode 3What Did You Expect?[Intro sounds: kids yelling, door opening, footsteps in hallway, classroom voices, bell ringing to start class.]You’re listening to Points In Between.This is Episode 3: What Did You Expect?Selena: Well, since I was little I didn't really realize how much America was really involved in the conflict at the time. I know, you know later on, I realized like how Bill Clinton helped resolve the war and how he stepped in and why the war actually ended.That was Selena. You met her back in Episode 2. In that episode she talked about what it was like to go to elementary school in Bosnia during the war between Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia.This episode of Points In Between, Episode 3, explores what people thought America was going to be like before they came, and what they discovered when they got here.Selena: But my impression was that Americans were so cool and America was so cool because most of my exposure to Americans was through like UNPROFOR-A vocabulary moment: UNPROFOR was the UN Peacekeeping force dispatched to Bosnia in 1992. They were there to protect Bosnian civilians during the war with Serbia.Selena: I would be almost like awestruck. And one soldier in particular who kind of like patrolled the area, my father made friends with him and one day I was sitting outside and I was playing - I think it was like a beautiful sunny Saturday and it was supposed to be a peace time - but a grenade fell about half of length of a football field away from me and he was there and he just you know, sprinted. It was like raining concrete and rocks and he just jumped on top of us until it was over and, you know, I was like screaming and I couldn't hear anything and my ears were ringing and he took us over into the house and it was just this huge mess and you know my dad was so grateful to him and he got a little shrapnel in his leg. So he went to the hospital and my dad work there. But they made friends and he would show me pictures from America and he taught me my first word in English which is very inappropriate [laughs] so I'm not going to share it. It starts with an F though. As impressions go, “an American saved my life” is about as positive as it can get. In her experience, American soldiers symbolized protection from violence.A couple of years after the war, Selena and her family immigrated to the US.Serena: So when I immigrated over here, I came through a, like a program that I would say it's like a political rescue. So that was how I came here. I got like political asylum, quote unquote, because my family was so affected by the war. One of the awful hallmarks of the conflict in Bosnia was ethnic cleansing, most famously the killing of Bosnians in the Srebrenica massacre, which the International Court of Justice later ruled an act of genocide.Despite positive associations with America, it took her parents a while to make the decision to move. In the end, they decided the opportunity for a new start was worth selling everything and leaving their home. But the first night they got here, they got off to an inauspicious start.Selena: So when I first came to America, one of my first experiences was not a positive one. So my father is Muslim Bosnian and my mother is Serbian. So that's the two countries that were fighting. And my father has, he’s sort of dark, he has very like prominent features. He's like a loud, kind of like very extroverted Bosnian man with a thick accent. And we were trying to eat food at a restaurant. It was like our first night. We landed in New York, JFK, and we were at the hotel restaurant and we had these bags and they had the U.N. thing it, immigration, and the people refused to serve us because they didn't think that - we didn't speaking any English but my father had dollars - but they didn't realize that we like had money. So they thought, like, we can't serve you cause you don't have any money. So I remember going back up to the hotel room and just being like, “Wow, those people are so mean! But we're hungry!” you know and I was such - I was a little kid and my dad like figured out how to go to like Burger King or something crazy like that. But, my first impression of America was terrifying. I remember being 12 years old and just crying alone in my room and I'm like, “I have no friends. I have nobody. I just have my parents and my sister.” And it was just so… it was such an emotional, you know intense experience. I'm tearing up a bit. Selena talked really matter-of-factly about waiting out bombing in her school library, for example, but got really emotional talking about her first night in the US. She wasn’t alone. A lot of the people I spoke with found the shift from anticipation to reality jarring and difficult.Selena: It was, it was really… like looking back on this I guess I don't think about this often but it was a really intense experience.You also met Omar in Episode 2. He’s the student who came from Syria to attend college in Vermont. He does like things about Vermont and about his classmates, but America’s involvement in the conflict in his country affected his expectations, too. What he expected was that Americans would know about the conflicts – that we might understand why he would feel ambivalent.Omar: There's also something else, which is the two faces that people have for Americans. Like the fact that us, people who come from underdeveloped countries who have seen nothing from the U.S. but like wars and death and misery…no, and like even the actual Americans that we've seen. So if you, for example, like let's bring - I don't know - a typical Iraqi child who was brought up in the midst of the war and this child has seen nothing from Americans but Americans with guns, Americans and tanks, Americans in airplanes, bombing and shelling his home, his city, his country. Now what do you expect from this Iraqi child? How do you expect him to like Americans? Or how do you expect him to be neutral to Americans? He won't be, and it's natural and it's his right to not be neutral to them. You might think Omar is deflecting a bit here. After all, he’s Syrian, not Iraqi. Interacting with American soldiers in Iraq isn’t his experience. But then listen closely to what he says in the next segment and think about the geography of the overlapping wars in the Middle East. Omar: Now at the same time you come to America, you come to the U.S. and, you see people expecting you to be liking them and to be even looking at them as idols and as the greatest nation that I want to be like and the people that Iwant to be like and everyone as…as if I'm trying always to be an American citizen. So that was really… frustrating for me in the beginning to live with those people and knowing at the same time, especially for me, that this specific country is currently bombing my country and those people that are saying that their nation is the greatest are the same people that are supporting this army on bombing - the same flag is the flag drawn on those airplanes that are bombing.US news reports tend to emphasize the idea that our military is attacking ISIS. But the Islamic State didn’t magically create new land when it declared its existence. It claimed territory in Iraq and Syria. You may have heard about the US bombing specific targets in Syria as a part of the current civil war there, which is true. But also, perhaps what you didn’t realize is that when the US bombs “ISIS targets,” that also often means we are bombing parts of Syria. I think you can understand how a person could, at the same time, oppose ISIS and also be unhappy about two wars being fought inside their country. And how our participation in those conflicts might complicate Omar’s feelings about America and Americans.Tobias attended an International School that he described as being deeply influenced by American culture. He found something different.Tobias: Maybe this something to do with being in the northeast. But I - and being at a very liberal college, which is that a lot of people, Americans, were ashamed for being from sometimes such a deeply divided culture of you know Left and Right, Red and Blue. I thought that Americans thought Americans were the best when I came to school. So I thought that all Americans would love where they came from and love, you know, have a strong sense of nationalism, patriotism. You know, the USA chant. But that ended up being pretty wrong. Like, I would sometimes have to remind Americans that they came from a pretty impressive country and that they weren't all that bad. So, Id’ say that was the biggest surprise for me.America’s huge military and political influence in the world does, of course, influence how others see us. But another powerful source of ideas about Americans, especially for younger people, pop culture – movies, TV, music, memes on social media. And one thing American movies about young people often show is out-of-control drunken parties. Tobias knew to expect a different culture around drinking when he came, but still…Tobias: I was in college and my sister was still at home in Belgium in high school and she was drinking legally. So she was going out to bars with her friends. So it was funny having that dichotomy of her being abroad and drinking, you know, completely legally and in moderation while students in the states just didn't know how to do that. You know, they just couldn't take alcohol for what it is, which is sometimes just a drink for, you know, that you like the taste of rather than something as a social lubricant or like as a way to get drunk. Siobhan moved from Wales to study at the University of Wisconsin. She said that maybe the most shocking thing about America was that it actually was how she imagined it was going to be.Siobhan: …And there were signs saying don't bring guns into places. I remember being particularly shocked by that. [laughs] Otherwise I think the thing that struck me the most, and it's still one of the things that strikes me the most, was the what the undergraduates would wear to campus. They almost all wear leisure wear, like sportswear, with Wisconsin like with the “W” or with the badger stuff on it. That's what they would wear to class every day. And that's really different because in the U.K., and in Cardiff in particular, it's - you're not wearing tracksuits to class. It's not so much that you're dressing up but everyone's trying to look really fashionable. So it's always like jeans and like boots or something. It's never like Cardiff University sports gear. So that struck me that all the undergrads were just in RED and I never seen that before except on film. Daniel came from South Korea to pursue a second, different undergraduate degree. He reflected on the impression he got from superhero films.Daniel: Actually, I didn't have any idea about what America is before I decided to come here. But when I decided to come here, actually I thought about like … racism but that, like because American movies, like Iron Man or Captain America. All hero movies has a main character which is a white guy and…the man in America, they usually looks like very muscly and they stay fit and strong and big and then, actually, the gun is legal here. So yeah I was kind of afraid like that. Shane:Do you think you were right to worry about any of it? Or do you think it's turned out to be different than you thought? Daniel:It's kind of different. Yeah. Just like people… I think people just don't care about that. This theme was echoed by Serafin. He moved to the US from Senegal, West Africa, when he was 16. Senegal is, coincidentally, right next to The Gambia, where Lingerr is from. I asked him to introduce himself in his first language, Wolof.Serafin: [Introduction in Wolof]Serafin met up with me at a bakery in Oakland, California in December. You might be able to hear some Christmas music in the background here. His expectations of American violence came from multiple sources.Serafin: When you watch some of the movies that ...like, the violence on it and then you're like, “Oh. That's the…That's the country of the rodeo, I guess.” So… A friend of my dad hame here. He was in New York once, because he used to work for like an airline, and he was in New York for a couple of days. And his first night he was in bed and he heard gunshots and he was like - the next day he packed his stuff and then left. [laughs] So when he came home he was like man it's just terrible. So I had that thing stuck in my mind. And, plus the jet lag and everything, I was in bed and thinking, “Hmm. I don't hear any gunshots yet but it's coming, it's coming…[laughs] until I fall asleep, and nothing. This impression of violence came from films, but also the news and it’s clear that even across the Atlantic in West Africa, expectations about violence here in America carried the same racial stereotypes.Serafin: My friends when I call would say, "Oh yeah - how is it over there? People shoot each other?" "Nah. That's TV. That's the movie. It's all good." "How are the black people?" "Well they're black. They're just like us. They're cool. They say hi, you say hi, that's it. You go your way, they go their way.” [laughs]I don’t think the pattern isn’t hard to pick out here. Talking with Mia, from China, didn’t reveal a different principle at work – just a different set of TV shows she watched. As a kid watching American shows in China, she compared her life with what she saw on Hannah Montana and Glee.Mia:And I[used to] think like my life was so boring, but like American kids they all have like have like different funny and interesting activities. They have parties. Yeah they can do a lot, like, what they want. But you know like in China it's such a restricted atmosphere. I kind of think like Glee, you know, like those high school kids, I really liked them. I think this is actually a normal American high school day, but now I think maybe it's not. [laughs]Angel didn’t name the shows she watched, but I think you can make some safe guesses.Angel: It seems like the...I don't know, maybe it's the exaggeration of the TV drama. Like the girls, in high school, they would judge each other by their appearance or their clothes and it's kind of mean. Like their friendship, it's… I don't know. I think everyone is afraid of being like edged out or... The social relations in the high school seems a serious issue in the high school from my seeing the TV drama, but I don't think they have a really serious school work burden on their high school life, compared to Taiwan. When she was in high school in Taiwan, Angel enjoyed playing in the wind ensemble. So once she got here, she joined an organization called the Music Connection. She got to go to music classes in a local high school as a volunteer, and this gave her a chance to see how reality stacked up against her impressions from TV.Angel: I don't know. It's really different from my stereotype of high school students on the TV drama. They are, like… they are really respectful and very cute. Before I went to - the first time - before I went to there, I was really nervous because I'm like a foreigner and I'm not a native speaker and I was a little bit afraid to be discriminated. Yeah, because from my stereotype of that. But when I went into there, they were really, really respectful and when I am talking, if there's someone still playing their instrument there will be some other students to say "Shut up! She's talking and we should listen to her.” Yeah, it's like very different from…Growing up in the Czech Republic, Caroline was also deeply influence…

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    Transcript for Episode 4 - First Day Aug 22, 2018
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    Points In Between: Episode 4First Day[Intro sounds: kids yelling, door opening, footsteps in hallway, classroom voices, bell ringing to start class.]You’re listening to Points In Between.This is Episode 4: First DayHave you ever been the new kid? I don’t mean first day of kindergarten or college, where everyone is new. I mean the kind of new kid where your classmates already know where they’re going to sit in the cafeteria at and you don’t. I was a new kid when I was 10. I hated it. I was bad at it.I welcomed new kids as a teacher, too. It’s eye-opening to view it from that perspective because you see both sides in a way you can’t when you’re in it. You see the new kid, their social skills – or lack thereof. Some of them, while they might feel like outsiders, just project a certain confidence. They’re attractive or charismatic and they make connections right away. Others – more - are shy or consumed by sadness about being there.And on the other side you see the established students, we’ll call them. They make early reconnaissance missions, to size up the newcomer. Some kids fit easily into a group and get taken into the fold within days. Others, maybe they make an initial attempt but they find some kind of difference neither side knows how to bridge. And in the worst cases the new kid is automatically judged unacceptable, a kind of pariah or non-entity in the local hierarchy. It is awful to watch.I didn’t do any kind of official sociological study, but I think what I learned, from watching it as a teacher, is that attitude, the social skills, the identity of the new kid, they all matter. And also, those aren’t the kind of things a kid can prepare the night before the first day of school. Let’s start this episode with two stories. First, Ruth, who moved to California when she was 16. Nothing about her appearance on the first day of school would have suggested her actual experience – that she had lived in Mexico for almost a decade, that one night, in the middle of the night, she got pulled out of a sleepover at a friend’s house and deported back to a country that legally was her home, but did not feel like it.Ruth: We lived near the school so we walked onto the campus and before we even crossed the gate and were in the quad I just had tears streaming down my face and I had this like, “No! No! No!” like screaming inside. I did not want to be there. I hated it and it was hard to come set foot on the campus without crying. Caroline’s experience was different. She had a tough road ahead of her, learning English and adjusting to a new culture, but at 14, she was excited to leave Czech Republic and she looked forward to her new start in America.Caroline: Fashion was definitely a big part of it. I have a picture from me walking up to the school and I turned around and did a little peace sign. It's just a really dorky picture of me wearing my little skirt and leggings underneath and a collared shirt and a hat. I always try to be more fashionable than like San Diego expects anybody to be. So that already sort of marked me out as the foreigner and my mom walked me to school and you know she wished me good luck and she was really scared for me. She didn't know if I was going to handle it or not. But I definitely – I, in retrospect, I look back and I realize that I was, like, fearless really. I could have been so much more shy and just, you know, it could have been much harder than it was. But I guess I still had just the big excitement of everything and me and I just went into it.But since Torre pines has... they have like nine different ESL classes. They have a really impressive program for people who don't have English as their first language. I knew it was going to be OK.I want to be clear. I’m not saying Ruth just needed a different attitude. She couldn’t help being sad. It was a totally reasonable thing to feel at that time. I’m saying that students are people and school happens in the larger context of their lives. Ruth: The first day of school I had to like put my head down because I had I was crying and I don't remember what my first class was but it was a rough day and I think I went home during lunch time because I was close enough so for the first few months I would go home for lunch. My dad was there and I would hang out with him and have lunch and then go back. At the end of her first day, Caroline’s mom was waiting for her outside the school.Caroline: My mom met me at the bottom of the hill beneath the school again and I was just like running. I was running down the hill and I was laughing and I was like, “This is so great!” Yeah, it was definitely one of like, the nicer ways that this could have gone. Ruth and Caroline each had over a month between their arrival in the States and their first day of school. That was not true for everyone.Juan: [Introduction in Spanish] I’m 33 and I’m originally from El Salvador and I was 16.Juan left El Salvador after the country’s civil war, but before the rise of the violence that is currently causing so many people to flee to the United States. His family arrived at San Francisco International airport late on a Thursday night.Juan: The very first next day, actually, we went to school high school and I do remember understanding a lot when it came to language since I did take English classes back in El Salvador so…but I was nervous. But everything was happening so fast too, but just you know trying to get into, I guess, into a routine. Mainly I was just nervous. That's about it. Looking back at the first week of school I was mainly just nervous about meeting new people, like how to behave. That was about say 40 percent of my thoughts. The other 60, they were still back in El Salvador with my old friends. In Caroline’s story you heard mention of a common theme in First Day accounts. Fashion, especially in schools without uniforms, is a language all unto itself. And like other languages, it’s nuanced and it changes with geography. In his new community, one of the puzzles Juan had to solve was which people went with what sorts of fashion. And the presence of whole new social categories of people made the task even trickier. Juan: I mean everything was so diverse because it was South City High. There were like different groups of kids. There's, you know, skateboarders. Their shoes were different. Of course you have your African Americans with your really baggy pants [laughs] and then you have your Hispanics, Latinos, which is pretty much the same thing, you know: baggy pants. Everybody told me don't wear red, don't wear blue, Sureños and Norteños. I tried to stay away from that. That's one of the main things that I was concerned about how to dress. Every time I would wear a blue shirt or something I would be concerned about that red shirt, you know, either color. That's pretty much it. Shane:Were you concerned about that because you knew about it from home or were you concerned about because you had heard about it here?Juan:I heard about here. That was - my aunt was actually one of the ones to tell me that, the first ones. One of the first ones to tell me that. She was like, “Well be careful what you wear.” You know she was like, “Mostly the school is OK as long as you don't associate yourself with those colors from the beginning. Just try and stay away from it.” And that's what I did. As you already heard, Simon was born in Korea but spent part of elementary school in the US. He was a new kid twice: once when he moved from the US back to Korea and then again when he returned to the US for high school.Simon: I was like… I wasn't really… I didn't know what people wore in America so I was just wearing what I wore, like what I would wear in Korea. And I think that kind of…I don’t think backfired. I don't think people necessarily cared about what I wore. But seeing everyone wear like Nike gear and stuff like that, it made me go out of my way to like Nike outlets and buy gear. And like I showed up to school in all Nike one day and like neon and stuff like that and people started making fun of me so…[laughs] that kind of thing. I tried to make an effort to fit in. But as time went on I think I found my own style. But when I go back to Korea I don't try to fit in. I try to be American. Simon’s story hints at a topic we don’t really like to talk about: money. And specifically, the intersection of school and money. To fit in and feel like he belonged, Simon observed the fashion landscape, then went out to buy clothes that – he hoped – would accurately convey the identity he wanted to express.If you’re an adult far removed from your school days, or maybe a particularly self-confident student who ignores fashion, you may be feeling skeptical right now. But I want to challenge that skepticism. Willfully ignoring the associations between fashion and identity in any community is a sort of statement of identity in itself. It’s a rare student who can do that without any social cost.Okay, lecture over.You already heard Cat’s voice if you listened to the introductory episode. She talked about what it was like to eat in the school cafeteria for the first time. But, here’s your formal introduction.Cat: [Introduction in Spanish] That's funny my last name is different in Spanish and I am originally from Cadiz, Spain…Cat grew up in a small, mostly Roma fishing village in southern Spain. When she was 9, she, her mom, and her step-father moved to Plano, Texas.Cat: I remember when I was packing to leave Spain to go to the U.S. that I purposely chose… like left behind all my outfits that I thought were not American, like the outfits I thought would not go over to America. So I only had my like... I don't even know what they were. I think they were like sweat-suits maybe that I mostly had. But I left behind my pleated skirts and I left behind…Oh we used to wear, in Spain we always wore like tights and a skirt, like a knee length skirt and I mostly just brought like sweat-pants and jeans because those are like the American things that would fit in. But I remember realizing on that very first day that whatever it is I was wearing, which I don't remember, was NOT cool, and being really devastated that it wasn't American at all, that I totally missed the mark and that everybody was wearing white polo shirts - I remember this distinctly - white polo shirts and khakis maybe with white Keds. And it was kind of like the uniform, but it wasn't actually uniform. But every kid had on kind of the same outfit and that all of the girls had beautiful, curly blond hair. Like every single girl had beautiful, blonde curly hair and blue eyes, which I had never seen in my entire life. And I was just so blown away by it. And there was just no way that I was going to make my hair look like that. I had no idea how I was going to put my hair in those kind of ponytails and accomplish those sorts of things.On one level, this desire to look like her classmates was about fashion. But it’s also the re-emergence of a theme from Episode One: the theme of family separation. This isn’t a geographic separation, it’s an emotional one. I doubt, when Cat’s mother decided to move her and her daughter to America, that she ever expected that school here would - however unintentionally - teach her daughter to want blonde curly hair. Cat: At some point, it must have been after the first few months, but somehow someone told me about what curling irons were, which I'd never heard of. And, you know, I tried to talk to my mom about how we needed a curling iron [laughing] and she was just completely… She just had no interest in getting a curling iron and I was so devastated because I needed my hair to look like everyone else’s. This desire for a curling iron was the start of the sort of negotiations that happen in a lot of households. The big question is, how much can a kid explore and adapt before their parents feel like it’s a betrayal of their identity?You already met Yesica. She and her family crossed from Mexico into Texas, then took an unexpectedly scenic bus route to their new home in Chicago. For her, a lack of information and a lack of money combined to make preparing for school a challenge.Jessica: When I first went to school, there was no school uniform and that kind of threw me off because you were allowed to wear jeans and a white shirt and I was just so used to wearing your long socks, your dress shoes, your skirt, your sweater, your dress shirt because that's the way that Mexican uniforms in schools are like. So I was just like, "Well, what is this?" So when I went to school I would just wear the hand-me-downs from my cousin because it will fit and we were like trying to start from scratch. So she wore a lot of like those tight jeans and tight shirts and I think that puts a certain image about a young girl, especially.So, yeah… I didn't have much of a choice. Most of her clothes - and her clothes were all like South Pole kind of clothes, you know like those clothes? So it was interesting because when I first started going to school I felt like this wasn't my image because I wasn't used to wearing these kind of clothes. I wasn't used to hearing this kind of music that comes with the outfit, I guess? I felt like for my first couple of years of elementary school I was stuck trying to assimilate to what everybody else was doing in order not to stick out and that was one way, dressing the same way as everybody else did in the neighborhood and listening to the same music and…In addition to managing complicated emotions, and in addition to navigating a new social landscape, the people I spoke with struggled to just make sense of the basic logistics in American schools. Serafin came from Senegal to California when he was sixteen. He started school three weeks into the school year.Serafin: …and when I walked he’s like, "Oh here's a new student". And I said “Hi” everybody said “hi” and he was like, "Sit right here in the front” and I'm thinking, "What about back over there?" He looked at me and I was like, "Can I... [motioning to back of room]?" And he said, "You want to sit in the back?" I was like "yes" he was like "go ahead". Because I always like sitting in the back, because… you know. So I was sitting in there and he was doing his class and I'm understanding some words, some words I'm like...[sigh] "You understand?" And I was like "Yeah, yea, yeah, yeah." Just to say yeah and get it done with so. And then you have to move to another class. And everybody’s like, "Let's Go!" I'm like. "Where?" It was like, "Next class." "OK." So I follow everybody like, maybe like 20 students. And then you have to go to a math class and I’m like, “Okay this is cool. You get out of class, you are out. This is nice.As you learned when you listened to Caroline, just because the transition to a new school is hard doesn’t mean it’s bad. Even though he was embarrassed by his inability to communicate, Serafin liked the more relaxed atmosphere of school in America. And, even though it took him a while to learn the process, he liked changing classrooms.When he arrived from Yemen at age 16, it had actually been a couple of years since Ra’ouf had regularly attended school.Ra’ouf: I wasn't thinking that I would be going to school. I was thinking that I will be just working and helping my dad. And, you know… I used to be a good kid in Yemen. Like when I went to school I got good grades and I think my dad realized how much he suffered in terms of you know living in this country without speaking English. Also there was a big motivation on my part to take advantage of… I didn't have in Yemen…But at the same time there were a lot of challenges. And one o…

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    Transcript for Episode 5 - The Great Equalizer Aug 21, 2018
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    Points In Between: Episode FiveThe Great Equalizer[Intro sounds: kids yelling, door opening, footsteps in hallway, classroom voices, bell ringing to start class.]You’re listening to Points In Between.This is Episode 5: The Great EqualizerSelena: The thing that I think is most different than in American schools is we didn't really have a lot of standardized testing. Whenever they tested us you would have to stand up, you would go in front of the class, you would be asked questions, and you would have to answer them. Serafin: But then over there you have homework like every day... even on the weekend you get off school Friday, you have Saturday, Sunday. You've got like hella homework to do and it's like, “Oh.” By the time you're done it's 8:00 PM Sunday. “I to go to bed. I've got to go to school tomorrow.” Those were the voices of Selena, who first went to school in Bosnia, and Serafin, whose schooling began in Senegal. Their comments echo a sentiment I heard from a lot of the people I interviewed. And that is: American schools just don’t feel that hard. But it’s too simplistic to take that perception at face value. At its core, this is about two basic questions: What is the point of educating everyone and What is the best way to do it?A school system, as an institution, is an embodiment of our – often messy and contradictory – answers to those two questions. Our debates about length of the school day, or funding sports facilities, or testing are all really debates about why schools exist and how they can best fulfill that purpose.If you’re a student who only experiences one system of schooling, these larger questions are hard to see behind the day-to-day minutiae of assignments. But if you move from one system to another, the differences can be unsettling. It feels like the rules have changed, and you’re right. They have.Mia grew up in China, where access to college is dependent on a single test that comes at the end of high school: the gaokao. China has a 2000-year history of using testing as a pathway to political power or economic success. The gaokao is the modern iteration of that tradition. In that system, being a “good student” means developing the skills to excel on that test.Mia: I think a good student here is absolutely not the type that I was in China, especially in high school. I think like before like learning process means to me that you just need to practice, practice a lot about the class you take and exercises you do. But now is like – since I have a different purpose - so I'm paying attention to every information that I get, no matter from textbook, class, or even people that I talk with. So now I don't need that identity to be a good student.Before we started our interview, Mia showed me a Powerpoint presentation on her laptop. It was about how her understanding of education has changed since she came to America. I didn’t ask for it. She just wanted me to know. It was sweet and I asked her more about it during our interview.Mia: My religion background is my mom is a Christian and when I was in high school, especially the period of passing the exam, she talked with me a lot. Obviously I was stressed out and had like, a bad time. And she just talked with me and prayed a lot for me and like told me that God loves you no matter what you do. And because of that, like, I think my family is quite different from other like traditional Chinese family because my mom don't have much expectation to me. But like when I got into college I actually I didn't take Christian[ity] or religion seriously. I wanted to like solve problems and, maybe, focus my future. When Mia came to UC Berkeley, immersion in a new system, with its new expectations, changed her.Mia: I think I couldn't be that person anymore. I was like, I was the kind of person also chasing for perfection. When I went through the mid-terms, I never had the experience of like writing papers. No matter how hard I try, I can't be that perfect me anymore. So like, you know, this is my identity of a Good Student. The midterm broke that identity and when I was like so weak and - I cried to my parents. I also had homesick[ness]. All emotions just came together. At that time like my friends, they are Christians. I came - a lot of Christian friends, they came to me and like tell me, “Your identity is not about school but also like much more about God, how God sees you.” So I remember like how when I was in high school my mom told me Christianity. So I think, I want to get to know more about Christianity, whether I can find my meaning and my identity in Christianity and I think now luckily I found it.Mia’s inability to be a “good student” in this new system prompted her to entirely re-evaluate the point of education. In any system, the markers for student success are constructed, based on that larger underlying purpose for educating people. Change the purpose and it should follow that teaching methods and evaluations also change. To really consider this, we need to do some historical digging. It’s going to get a little long, but truest me. There’s a point to it.There have been a lot of changes in American schools, of course. But if you were going to pick one single year to help you make sense of our shared understanding of the purpose of American schools, it would be 1848.The early 1800s were kind of strange by modern standards. If you went to school in the US you’ve probably heard of abolitionism. But you may not know that the fight to abolish slavery was one of a whole range of movements focused on the moral character of individuals and society. This was the time period tht saw the rise of Evangelical Christianity and transcendental philosophy. But it’s also the time when Sylvester Graham, inventor of the Graham cracker, argued that a diet of bland foods could prevent both cholera and masturbation. The temperance movement suggested that alcohol caused both immorality and poverty. Those are only a few examples of a huge number of social movements at the time. So that’s the background.Our year, 1848, was itself momentous. In the West, after defeating Mexico in war, the US added a half-million square miles to its territory, along with the non-English-speaking people who lived there. In upstate New York, on the other side of the country, women at the Seneca Falls convention asserted that women should have the right to vote. Along the Eastern seabord, Irish Immigrants, escaping the potato famine, poured into Boston, New York, Philadelphia Baltimore. Within two years these mostly Catholic newcomers would be 25% of the population in those cities.Across the Atlanitc, in Europe, 1848 was also the year that Marx and Engels published the Communist Manifesto. In it, they argued that violent class conflict is one of the unavoidable constants of human history. And they predicted that growing industrialization would eventually lead to revolution and a complete re-ordering of industrial societies. That same year, 1848, within months of the publication of the Communist Manifesto, on the other side of the Atlantic, Horace Mann delivered his 12th Annual Report of the Secretary of the Board of Education. Not a very sexy title. Mann was the first Secretary of the first state Board of Education. His state, Massachusetts, was the most industrialized one in the US at the time – though the process was still in its infancy. Massachusetts was also the home of the Common School movement – the movement in favor of creating free, compulsory, state-funded public schools – and Mann was its best-known advocate.That 12th Annual Report wasn’t a philosophical reflection of schooling, although it certainly contained some philosophizing. It went to the Massachusetts legislature. It was about money. It’s basically an argument explaining why tax money should be collected to pay for schools and why students should be required to attend school.In that 1848 document, Mann laid out the arguments that are still, in a lot of ways, at the core of how we think about education in America. And to understand the current student experience in American schools, it helps to know why we have schools.Mann predicted that public school could become, in his words, “the most effective and benignant of all the forces of civilization.” This is first because of the scale of its impact, how many people are affected. He said, “all the rising generation may be brought within the circle of its reformatory and elevating influences.” And also because young peopleare, in his words, “pliant.” When you get them young you can mold them into “a greater variety of forms than any other earthly work of the Creator.” An “effective force of civilization” isn’t just teaching you arithmetic. It’s more subtle than that.Consider this example from a 14-year old. He’s been in the US for 4 years.William: My name is William and I'm currently living in Houston and I used to live in London, England.William attended what Americans would call a private school in London. The scope of public schools is obviously far greater, but the practice of inculcating behaviors is the same.William: There were many entrances. It was sort of a large … but every single day the headmaster was standing by the gate where you should enter and you had to look him directly in the eye and shake his hand before you were allowed to enter, just so you learn how to socially interact with adults better. And I think to this day that helps me. Learning to shake hands with confidence could never be considered an academic skill, but you certainly might call it an “elevating influence” to use Mann’s words.I asked Angel about writing essays here in California, versus the style she was taught in high school, back in Taiwan. Angel: What’s very different is that the English essay require you to state your opinion in the first sentence and the topic sentence should be really specific and the whole essay should be really logical and understandable. And actually, in Chinese like writing, maybe the topic is about struggling and you have to write an article about that in Chinese. And, like, the English essay, the hook [is] just in the beginning maybe a few sentences, but like in the Chinese article is like maybe the whole article is the hook and in the end of the article, you express your opinion.If you’re a student just trying to get a paper written, you might be frustrated by a teacher who says you can’t use “I” in a formal essay. You might struggle to articulate your main idea in a single sentence in your first paragraph. But you probably aren’t challenging those conventions on the basis that you reject the larger cultural norms you’re being forced to model.Angel: I think in Chinese society it's …there's more oppression for you to speak out your opinion in public if you're opinion is different from others. There’s not...well, the American will embrace more diversity of your perspective. But in Chinese society if you have a different opinion or you want to say something to criticize, you may be a little bit careful of your wording. You encounter more like pressure to [if you] speak out a differing opinion. I think it's in general is like this, or was in high school. Shiraj commented on a different standard sort of American writing assignment: the research paper. Shiraj: The teacher is giving you two weeks and then there should be something really good about it and I don't know what… what should it…what detailed thing should it be because I can write an essay in an hour. But I always feel like something's missing because why would the teacher give me two weeks? Like how you find quotes and then you analyze it? That's something I never did. But then the good thing here is also they give you many examples of how you do it. But it's just weird because you get two weeks and I don't know what to do for two weeks about it. [laughs]Shane: Well, I mean, as a teacher I can tell you that at least a solid week of that I expected my students to procrastinate and not do anything. But I mean it was for doing research and finding new information. Shiraj: There the information is already given to you, in India. It’s like, just write a letter to the editor about the problem in your society. The garbage problem. Or maybe write a letter or maybe write an essay about a day in your life. It was very simple or very, very realistic. Here it’s way detailed. That topic, the research paper raises another question. Exactly what information and skills should you use this, in Mann’s words, “effective and benignant force of civilization” to teach? And how?Roya: Arts was big. We did a lot of like making – they say in Farsi “kardesti” - making like a clock or making a house, like building things with cardboard. I was really good at that...my artistics I always got the highest score in school. You’re listening to Roya, describing part of her schooling in Afghanistan. Roya: So we had physics, we had algebra, we had science. The system in Afghanistan with education, it was really exposing a lot of subjects, early stage, that you have six [or] seven subjects that you have to know. And each class is like 30 minutes, 35 minutes, but then you get exposed to so many different subjects. When Vishnu arrived from India, he encountered a reorganization of subjects he was already familiar with.Vishnu: Most schools here only have one science that time or like one math at the time. In India it's like, you do all the maths at the same time, all science at the same time. You begin low each thing and go up. It's not like you do begin low, go up, begin low, go up again and again. So it's kind of like that and like. For Juan, who came from El Salvador at age 16, the reorganization of subjects wasn’t just curious. It was frustrating.Juan: The last math class I took there I was taking a little bit of trig and pre-calculus with algebra mixed. So when I came here, my school transcript from there, you know school was looking at it and they were like, “Let's do pre-algebra.” So I took pre-algebra and that was super easy. So like I moved algebra. And that was kind of easy so I talked to them and then like, “OK let's move you to pre-calc.” I was understanding some part of it, but after the first week I was kind of lost. So that's when they told me, “OK let's move you back to algebra 3/4”. So I was kind of frustrated because most of the things in algebra 3/4 I already had taken it there and I was pretty good, but I couldn't take pre-calc because I was kind of lost. When I asked about the differences in skills and expectations between the US and elsewhere, the most common response had to do with math. Yesica, Vishnu both commented on it.Yesica: What I was learning in 6th grade I had learned that in 3rd grade and I was just like, "Man...why are these people like…" Not that they're slow. They just like pace them too slow. They don't have them, like, “Do this, quick." So as far as education, I think like Mexico was pretty good because it moves faster.Vishnu: So we had a question on the board saying you need to solve this equation or something. I like took the pen and paper, like piece of paper and a pen, and solved it in a few minutes. The guy next to me had a calculator, he kind of started solving in like five minutes. I still got it first. So people looked at me like I'm totally different cause I get super fast in my head. I kind of feel like it's not that the math in India is far ahead than this place. It's like, I don’t know, I just felt like the way we got taught math in India is like more intuitive than just saying, “This adds to this.” If you look at something saying, “This happens and that happens” you'll see, “OK, this happens.” In India, it's like why did this happen, so I think that helped me a lot. Vishnu also reflected on a…

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    Transcript for Episode 6 - Behave! Aug 20, 2018
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    Points In Between: Episode 6Behave! [Intro sounds: kids yelling, door opening, footsteps in hallway, classroom voices, bell ringing to start class.]You’re listening to Points In Between.This is Episode 6: Behave! This episode of Points In Between explores the relationship between students and the people on the other end of the equation at school: their teachers. You’ll hear stories about how students and teachers interact with each other in classrooms here and in places around the world. If your only experience of American education has been as a student, or maybe as a student and a parent, you may feel like you intimately understand schools, but…I’m just going to be blunt here: you don’t. There is a whole world of activity going on behind the scenes and as a student you catch only glimpses of it. I’m not trying to be dismissive. I’m sure you have some good observations. I’m just saying, getting your hair cut does not make you a barber.Let me illustrate. Here’s Cat, describing her elementary school classroom in Spain:Cat: I remember doing a lot of what I now looking back think of as like stations or free choice, where every student would be sort of working at a different level on a different activity. But we had these kind of workbooks that we would be working on and so the teacher would sort of float and just kind of check in on each student one on one and I don't remember a lot of like lecturing or like listening to the teacher explain things to the whole class. My memory of it is that it was very individuated, but I don't know that's true. From the student perspective, this classroom involves independent activity. You, the student, move through the space of the classroom. You maybe have some relaxed interactions with classmates while you work or explore. You feel a fair amount of volition and control over your experience. The teacher drifts in and out of your vision at seemingly random points. The teacher view is very different. You see maybe 30 individuals, moving through a path you set up – any one of whom can veer wildly off course at any time. Rather than a close focus on a single task, your mind is engaged in pattern recognition, looking and listening for anything that might require your directed attention. There are certain classroom sounds and movements that are within expected parameters and, if you’re a teacher, your focus gets drawn to anything outside of that norm. Students, in your perception, shift back and forth. One second a kid is an individual, the next she’s part of a separate collective entity called “the class.” Your goal is to get each individual to learn, but to do that you have to choreograph a dance for the whole class. It takes a lot of skill and practice to do that well.And what I just gave you is a pretty mechanical analysis. It leaves out the students’ personalities and their enjoyment (or lack of enjoyment) of the process. It doesn’t consider the teacher’s skills or the teacher’s or goals for student learning. And it ignores the most important thing in the room, which is the complicated personal relationships between students and teachers.With those two views in mind, as you hear people’s descriptions of their school experiences, I’m going to draw your attention to four different aspects of the teacher-student relationship. For organizational purposes, I’m just going to call them teaching methods, hierarchy, formality, and privacy. We’ll start with Ra’ouf, who lived in Yemen until he was 16. Ra’ouf: For elementary school it was mainstream education .You just learn the language and some other subjects, you know, but mainly like art, you know, since they were trying to get us [to] grow and have fun. And then once you get into middle school you start to take subjects such as, you know, history, biology. There was school but the resources were not very sufficient and the teaching was not very well-constructed and so it wasn't very informative. I mean, that's how I felt when I came and I compare and contrast between the US and I know it's a big comparison but... yeah Yemen is a poor country - in fact it's the poorest maybe country in the Middle East - and that's just unfortunate. And the fact that I was living in the rural area meant a lot because there was not so much of an effort to give too much resources and the teachers were not just showing up. And then at same time you know I just felt that my time was not efficient and I was not really productive going to school and I didn't feel also safe.This is a pretty blunt critique of the teaching methods in Ra’ouf’s school in Yemen. His teachers had neither the material resources nor the knowledge and skills to make school feel useful to him. And, as he said, he also felt unsafe while he was there.Ra’ouf: For example the treatment of the teachers to the students is a very sort of violent. Like, you know, if you show up late at school then you get hit by the - the teacher will hit you like maybe eight to ten times on your hand. And by the time you know you get into the school you’re kind of like, “OK, this is enough. I don't even want to go anymore.” And that's the reality. I mean, most students don't...if they sort of like woke up late or they got caught up in their way to school and there is that sort of fear already inside them, you know, that make them feel like, you know "I don't even want to go because what would I get? Nothing. Only you know maybe getting my hands getting hit.” And that’s why I decided just to help my mom and my siblings by working at the farm and some other jobs.There’s an incredibly complicated power dynamic in classrooms. The core question is: How much control should the teacher exercise over events in the classroom, and what tools does the teacher have to enforce that control? In any school, the answer is a mix of cultural and institutional factors. In Ra’ouf’s description, the teacher is the only decision-maker. Power is not shared. To enforce this order, Ra’ouf’s teachers were allowed to use corporal punishment. The institution itself gave them that tool. Between the poor teaching methods and the enforced hierarchy, it just didn’t feel worth it to Ra’ouf to be there. So he left.Corporal punishment of students is a tool wielded by schools in most parts of the world, which is a pretty clear statement about hierarchy. In the US, corporal punishment is allowed in public schools in 19 states and prohibited in 31. Only two states outlaw corporal punishment in private schools – Iowa and New Jersey. Just because a state allows corporal punishment, though, doesn’t mean schools choose to use it. The majority of all corporal punishment in the US happens in just 5 states: Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas. And then also, there’s the question of who, within a school, has the right to use it and under what circumstances. In Ra’ouf’s school, teachers had the individual discretion to use it at will. In the US, the actual hitting is only done by the principal in a lot of places– sometimes only with the express permission of parents. Ra’ouf had one more point to note.Ra’ouf: And then the other thing is, you know, women are segregated. That's social, social aspects, and that's what I find really interesting from you know moving from Yemen to…[the US]. So in a sense everything was sort of transformative for me, like socially, academically when I came to the United States and it took me a while to adjust.Gender segregation is a complicated topic. But in the simplest terms, in Yemen, women and men are segregated in public spaces but close family members can interact in private spaces. The segregation of girls in school indicates that the classroom is firmly situated in the public sphere, not the private.When Serafin began school in California at 16, he noticed some big differences between his American school and the one he attended in Senegal.Serafin: The way students act in class, you can – here people can drink in class, water, whatever…You can to the guy sitting next to you. Back home, in order to get water, you have to raise your hand and ask, “Can I so get some water?” Sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no. And you cannot just turn around and talk to the person next to you. You might get kicked out of class or whatever. So, it was a shock when I was seeing students chatting in class. I was like, “Oh. This is good. I like that.’ [laughs] In class is just class because if you get caught talking to anybody without a teacher's permission either you go behind the door on your knees or you get kicked out of class. And then when you get kicked out of class, usually what they had was like supervisors walking around the whole school looking at who got kicked out of class so they can call your parents and then nobody wanted to have their parents come over. I remember getting kicked out once and the teacher goes, "Stay outside of the door" and I'm thinking like "I don't think so.” So I went to the bathroom and was just in the bathroom for hours until class was over and I went back to class. [laughs] But I wasn't thinking about standing in front of that door and seeing supervisor. "Oh! Your son is outside. He got kicked out of class!” Um, no. Not going to happen. Shane:Did you have a good - do you remember having a good relationship with your teachers? What was that relationship like or was it very distant? How would you describe it?Serafin:Very distant. It was just school. "I'm the teacher, you're the student.” The only teacher I only had a good conversation with: my PE teacher. Because I love exercise so we talked about soccer and basketball and a lot of stuff.One way to think about Serafin’s description is in terms of hierarchy, but this description also involves formality, by which I mean an expectation that everyone – teacher and student alike – will follow a set of behaviors dictated by their role in the classroom. These aren’t separate things. The rules governing student behavior are aligned with the hierarchy of the classroom. The teacher had the ability to use corporal punishment to maintain that order. The emotional distance that existed between Serafin and most of his teachers, anyway, was also an expression of that formality and hierarchy. Their respective roles did not – teacher and student, in most cases didn’t provide space for more personal relationships.In his California classroom, by contrast, those particular rules – that formality – didn’t exist. Even if his teachers were frustrated by student chatter, and I suspect they were, the classroom was a space that allowed for some negotiation between teacher and student and teachers could not use corporal punishment to enforce or influence student behavior.Serafin: When everybody walks to school, you have the principal at the door looking at how you dress.I remember not tucking my shirt in and I got called in - when I was in class - I got called in on the telephone, “Go to the principal's office.” I was like, “What did I do? Well, whatever.” So I get there. “Your shirt is not tucked in. You're wearing a hat, which is not allowed.” I was like, [sigh].” “Take it off!” They took it away. “You don't have a belt either.” “Ok, fine.” “Take off your pants!” So I took off my pants, left it at the principal's office. They kicked me out. I went home with a shorts. And then got home, "What happened?" "I was dressed incorrectly." And I got a beating. So next day I figured out how to dress the proper way to go to school. It was like well... “That's the way to do it.” [laughs]Shane:Wait. [also laughing] So let me make sure I understand this. How old were you when this happened?Serafin:Probably 16. Shane:OK so 16, you show up at school, the principal says, “You're not dressed properly,” calls you into his office, makes you take off your pants, and sent you back home with your underwear. Serafin:Yeah, and get home, give an explanation to my dad. "Oh!" Gave me a beating. The next day went back with a belt and proper clothes. It's a little bit...it's OK now of course, but when I grew up …it was hard. You wake up thinking "I don't want to go to school". It was…but…whatever. You got to do what you got to do right? [laughs]In this account, Serafin’s principal enforced the dress code – a type of formality – through the use of corporal punishment and – I think we can assume - humiliation. The lesson was reinforced at home by Serafin’s dad. So, also, if we consider this in terms of privacy, the line between Serafin’s school world extended its reach into his home world.Nearby, in the Gambia, Lingerr described a similar school hierarchy.Lingerr: So the expectations about how children behaved in the classroom, I mean, is way more severe. I think the students I have right now in the school I teach in are actually really polite so I don't have that many issues with them, but in Gambia I don't think that children were necessarily ruder but the punishments were way more intense. They actually had stopped beating children a few years before I went into high school, but they pull your ears, and one time when my teacher just thought I was making noise and she pulled my ears and I'm still angry this and I wasn't making noise. And she pulled my ears and it's really painful![Both Lingerr and Shane laughing]]Shane: Yeah. I can tell you’re like worked up still. [both still lauging]Lingerr: This was like 20 years ago…[laughs]I guess you might question me for laughing at this point and that would be totally fair. But I wasn’t laughing at Lingerr’s physical pain. It was more that suddenly in that moment in our interview, Lingerr’s adult self just disappeared and she became, for a moment, the outraged 8-year-old who got her ear pulled. It’s a reminder that students often disagree with teaching methods, with school hierarchies, with rules, and with violations of their privacy. They just can’t always effectively resist.I think the accounts you’ve heard so far also give something of a false impression. Hierarchy doesn’t always involve emotional distance. Kids are sometimes the ones to break down boundaries between home and school, private and public. And even though they don’t want to be on the receiving end of corporal punishment, students may see benefits to the orderliness of hierarchical school cultures.Consider Cat’s view of her teacher in Spain.Cat: I also feel like I knew her very well. We actually called her by her first name, my teacher. Florencia was her name. But part of that, too, is that we had the same teacher for multiple years and the same group of students so the dynamics were sort of, almost family-like. But there was definitely a sense of - I don't think respect is a strong enough word - but there was a very …there was adoration and a very clear boundary between the students and the teachers. And even though we used her first name, I remember having this like healthy fear of her, in a way. I feel like she was very… she wasn't… I wouldn't qualify her as like a strict disciplinarian but she had, you know, full control all the time of the class. Cat’s relationship with her teacher was, at the same time, emotionally close and extremely formal. At her new school in Texas, she was confused by the mismatch between her teacher’s official role – as teacher – and her behavior. Cat: The way adults interacted with kids …and I can't quite put my finger on it. They had like big hair-sprayed hair and lots of lipstick and kind of like big Texas personalities. And I was just so fascinated by them. But there's something about the way they interacted with the kids that was so different. I'm not sure what it was but I …Even as an adult who is, herself, a teacher, Cat struggles to explain the difference bet…

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